[Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)

[Kadaj]

At long last, I finally finished. The older topic can be found here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4463)

MUC has now been around for quite a while in Legacy, usually floating just off the radar while occasionally putting together enough victories to be recognized as a Deck To Watch or such. Still, despite its relative lack of popularity, MUC has thoroughly established itself as a solid choice within the Legacy metagame. Development has been surprisingly enterprising over the past year or so, and two divergent schools of thought have begun to develop regarding MUC's best incarnation.

The first train of thought is the more traditional build including gems like Brainstorm and potentially even a 'splash' for Engineered Explosives. This style of build focuses more on controlling the stack and using a heavier compliment of counters to make the job easier on their lesser number of board control cards. Operating primarily at instant speed, these builds are very closely related to the old-style MUC build that Randy Buehler piloted to an undefeated record in Worlds 1998.

For reference, Buehler's list is as follows:

X18 Island
X4 Quicksand
X4 Stalking Stones
X1 Rainbow Efreet
X4 Counterspell
X4 Dismiss
X2 Dissipate
X3 Forbid
X4 Force Spike
X4 Impulse
X3 Mana Leak
X1 Memory Lapse
X4 Nevinyrral's Disk
X4 Whispers of the Muse

Obviously that list relies heavily on permission to handle early game threats, followed up by Nevinyrral's Disk to clear away any potential stragglers and stabilize the game. Whispers of the Muse provided the bulk card advantage, on top of Dismiss, and the ideal end-game would be an end of turn activation of Stalking Stones followed by the ever ubiquitous counter-defense.

Due to differences in card-pool and available technology, among several other factors, modern MUC lists can't rely as heavily on countermagic to protect against early-game rushes, nor can something as slow and ponderous as Nevinyrral's Disk be counted on to be a reliable board-sweeper in a format where Goblins can kill you on turn 3 and Threshold can deal with Disk in about a thousand ways (the most obvious being countering it). However, you can see the convergent lines of thought between the way Buehler's list was positioned and the way the following list was designed:

MUC by Marcel Schneider (Doks here on The Source)

X12 Island
X4 Polluted Delta
X4 Flooded Strand
X1 Plains
X1 Swamp
X2 Morphling
X1 Meloku, The Clouded Mirror
X4 Brainstorm
X4 Counterspell
X4 Force Of Will
X4 Spell Snare
X4 Fact or Fiction
X3 Mana Leak
X3 Impulse
X3 Back to Basics
X3 Engineered Explosives
X3 Vedalken Shackles

SB:
X4 Blue Elemental Blast
X1 Hydroblast
X3 Repeal
X4 Propaganda
X3 Tormod's Crypt

While Doks's list contains far more stuff that requires actually using lands on your own turn (le gasp!), the similarities between his list and Buehler's list are fairly obvious. A pilot of this deck would like nothing more than to Force of Will, Spell Snare, Mana Leak, or even just plain old Counterspell all of his or her opponent's threats out of existence, and failing that simply use Engineered Explosives (note the use of fetchlands to provide both extra counters for EE and an extremely important shuffling mechanism for Brainstorm) and Vedalken Shackles to keep the board under control before eventually locking his or her opponent under Back to Basics (or B2B) and finishing them off with Morphling.

Stuff like Brainstorm and Impulse provides the early game filtering and selection necessary to ensure that counters are in plentiful supply and that no serious threats slip past the defensive wall, while Fact or Fiction does the heavy-lifting in the mid to late game allowing the deck to reload extremely effectively as the game wears on. The major card to note here is Back to Basics, which is really the most important card in any variation of MUC. B2B is an absolute beating in Legacy because almost every deck utilizes some non-basic lands. Even Mono-Red Goblins makes use of Rishadan Port and Wasteland, and some decks, like the ever-present Threshold, are absolutely crippled by a resolved B2B. In fact, the only disagreement I have with Doks's list is the lack of the 4th B2B. Even with the additional card selection of Brainstorm and Impulse I still would want the maximum number allowed because the card is just that good. Still, Doks had noticeable success with this build, finishing in a top four split at the German Iserlohn tournament, so it has certainly put up results despite my own minor misgivings.

Now, I mentioned earlier that there are two divergent lines of thought as to how MUC should be built in modern Legacy. Doks's list is a perfect example of the first line of thought. Utilize heavy card-selection and counterspells to control the progress of the game, eventually using some versatile finisher to win the game. The second line of thought, and the path that I myself have championed throughout its development, is based off another great Magic player’s MUC build from just two years after Buehler’s success at Worlds 1998.

MUC by Zvi Mowshowitz

X15 Island
X4 Rishadan Port
X2 Rath’s Edge
X3 Dust Bowl
X4 Faerie Conclave
X2 Palinchron
X3 Morphling
X3 Masticore
X4 Counterspell
X4 Miscalculation
X1 Rewind
X4 Grim Monolith
X4 Powder Keg
X4 Treachery
X3 Stroke of Genius

While the shift from Standard of 2000 to Legacy of 2008 leaves a significant amount of technology for Zvi’s exact list either firmly in the trash-can (or on the banned list, thanks Grim Monolith), the similarities in design will be obvious once you compare the two lists. My current list is as follows:

MUC by Nick Schachter (Kadaj, as you have hopefully figured out by now)

X24 Island
X2 Morphling
X1 Rainbow Efreet
X4 Force of Will
X4 Counterspell
X3 Foil
X4 Fact or Fiction
X4 Ancestral Vision
X4 Powder Keg
X4 Propaganda
X4 Back to Basics
X2 Vedalken Shackles

SB:
X4 Blue Elemental Blast
X4 Chill
X4 Disrupt
X2 Jace Beleren
X1 Vedalken Shackles

I’m sure at least some of you who are reading this just had a heart attack, so I’ll give you a few seconds to collect yourselves. Better? Good. Now, I’ll address some of the usual things that come up when people first see my list.

NO BRAINSTORM?!?!?!!!1111

Yes, no Brainstorm. Contrary to popular belief, Brainstorm is not an auto-include in every single deck playing blue. At least not in my book. Why? Well, for starters, let’s look at what Brainstorm actually does. It draws you three cards, but then requires you put two back on top of your library, so you don’t net any actual card advantage. Instead you essentially get to reorder the top of your library in addition to your hand. While that’s not a terrible effect, Brainstorm really gets ridiculous when a shuffle effect is involved. Now you have potentially shuffled away two cards you didn’t want, in addition to investing the Brainstorm, and replaced them with 3 new cards of higher value. That’s quite amazing! So why isn’t Brainstorm in my list then, now that I’ve finished singing the card’s praises? Count the shuffle effects in my list. That’s right, zero. Not one. So, instead of being the ridiculous cantrip-supreme that just earned itself a place on the Vintage restricted list, Brainstorm is merely an ok cantrip in my list. Would you put an Opt in that slot? I didn’t think so. Don’t let the name Brainstorm fool you into thinking it belongs in every single deck with blue, although it certainly does come very close, this just happens to be one of the rare exceptions.

Still not convinced? Look at Zvi’s list. Zvi was (and probably still is) one of the all-time great Magic players and deck designers. Brainstorm was quite legal in Standard at the time he put that build together, so why didn’t he include it? For exactly the same reasons I didn’t. It doesn’t do enough without the presence of shuffle effects or a much higher need for early game card selection to warrant its slots.

Now that that’s out of the wa-- What now?! Oh, Ancestral Vision and Foil? Yeah I guess those do look a bit weird at first glance. And probably second glance too.

Basically, Ancestral Vision is in my list because it is by far the second best card advantage mechanism available to my build. Standstill is the only card even remotely comparable, and MUC just isn’t equipped to take advantage of Standstill, which leaves AV is the only viable option. Despite the seemingly clunky appearance and obvious lack of speed, AV is actually a total bomb in this list. Being able to invest one mana on turn one, when you would otherwise have no plays anyway, and reap the rewards at a later date for no addition cost is absolutely huge due to the way my build plays. Much like Zvi’s list, this build cannot rely on countermagic to maintain control over an entire game. Or even an entire phase of the game. Instead, it utilizes a whopping 14 permanent board control cards to limit an opponent’s options down to practically nil. Ever tried to attack through a pair of Propagandas playing Threshold? Not fun. Same thing for Landstill, except replace attack with play anything at all and Propaganda with Back to Basics.

Also, drawing three cards is a hugely powerful effect, even if you have to wait four turns to actually reap the rewards. Seriously, there’s a reason cards like Concentrate cost four mana. Namely, they’d be broken if they required anything less. Ancestral Vision costs just one mana, and none on the turn it resolves, making it extremely easy to defend and an extremely powerful card in its own right.

Now that that’s out of the way, let’s move on to Foil. Yes, it does cost an insane three cards from your hand to counter a spell if you want to use its alternate cost. And yes I’m well aware that’s a -2 loss of cards. So why am I including it? Well, it could be because I’m absolutely nuts and am out to ruin everyone’s ability to succeed with MUC. Or, it could be because there is literally no deck in the format (with the exception of Enchantress once it gets going) that draws as many cards as this deck. The sheer volume of card drawing highly mitigates the drawbacks to Foil and allows it to act as exactly what this deck needs it to be. An auxiliary Force of Will to stop crap like Goblin Lackey from running in unimpeded and spewing out a horde of goblins to rape our horses and ride off on our women.

Now the fun part; Matchups.

I’ll start with the 800 pound gorilla in the room, Threshold. In short, both variants of MUC have a positive matchup with Threshold. In fact, MUC’s matchup against Threshold is so good that it’s actually a major reason to play MUC in the first place. Will you win every game without even trying? No. There is a reason why Threshold is more or less the undisputed best deck of Legacy, and make no mistake you can and will lose to Threshold if you don’t make absolutely sure to go about the job properly. First off, do not counter cantrips. Ever. They are NOT the threats in this matchup. The things you DO want to watch out for are Tarmogoyf (o rly?), Nimble Mongoose, and potentially Sensei’s Divining Top depending on the situation.

Tarmogoyf is obviously Threshold’s biggest threat and it can easily end a game before you have a chance to set up, so watch out for it. Nimble Mongoose is similar, but even more annoying because spot-removal is useless against it. SDT makes it much easier for the Threshold player to reload after you deal with their first wave of threats, so it may be warranted to keep that off the board. Basically, the reason why MUC is so solid against Threshold is because it doesn’t fight the same battles as most of the format. Counterbalance is not game-breaking against MUC the way it is against just about everything else (although it is much better against the stack oriented build than it is against the more permanent based build), and Back to Basics is essentially an instant win if you can resolve it.

Sideboard suggestions are simple. Basically, bring in any additional Shackles you have for whatever excess counterspells you might be packing, and bring in the fourth B2B if you're being foolish and not MDing 4 of them in the first place.

Matchup Summary:
Moderately Favorable for Stack-Oriented MUC
Favorable for Permanent-Oriented MUC

Next up would be the Goblins matchup. Now, if you've ever heard me go on a rant about this you'll know precisely what I think about the Goblins matchup. Namely, it sucks. Seriously, as a MUC player you have to make major concessions with your maindeck to make the matchup doable, even if you load up postboard. Why? Because if you lose game 1, and I assure you without the aformentioned concessions you will lose game 1 almost every time, the odds of you escaping the overall match with a win are low.

Basically here's what it comes down to. Be playing MD Propaganda and multiple ways to back it up (B2B, Powder Keg/EE, Shackles, and a strong mid-game draw engine) or lose. Horribly. Game 2, bring in 8+ cards consisting of anything from Chill to 8 Blasts, to even Douse and hope you pull it out. There really isn't a whole lot to this, as the usual job of making sure that Lackey doesn't connect is really a red herring here. Even if you stop lackey, it's the follow up threats that will do you in. Goblins has one of the strongest, and most underrated, mid-games in all of Legacy, and you simply can't compete with them by attempting to 1 for 1 them over and over again.

The methods for winning are fairly simple. Hit turn 3 Propaganda as often as possible, no matter what it takes. Get a B2B or a second Propaganda down quickly, use Fact and/or AV to reload once you hit the mid-game and don't give Goblins any room to fight their way back into the game. The methods for losing... well, let's just say they're numerous. Rishadan Port is a bitch, as it will often prevent you from being able to being able to get Propaganda down fast enough before the horde overruns you. Quick Lackeys are just as devastating as you can imagine, despite the fact it is fully possible to win through one through use of Propaganda, and the tandem of Ringleader and Warchief makes the mid-game hell.

Sideboarding is simple. Bring in all of your anti-red hate and anti-creature stuff. Outgoing cards include Counterspell, stuff like Mana Leak, the 4th B2B, an island, or even a Powder Keg. You’re going to have make certain concessions with numbers postboard, as there’s a lot more stuff coming in then you’ll want to remove. Just remember your SB stuff is in there for a reason, because it’s better at what it does for the specific matchup than the stuff in the main.

Matchup Summary:
Terrible for Stack-oriented MUC
Less terrible, but still bad, for Permanent-oriented MUC

The final large matchup summary belongs to Landstill, the major control deck in Legacy. With experience, this matchup should be positive for the MUC player, but those who are lacking practice will find this is surprisingly difficult. Usually in control on control matchups the deck with more blue wins (and if neither deck has blue the deck with more colors wins, but that’s neither here nor there), and MUC is definitely the deck with more blue. The problems begin to arise when you realize Landstill often packs fun stuff like Extirpate and Krosan Grip in their board, neither of which are particularly fun to play against.

Preboard the matchup is fairly simple. Conserve countermagic until you can force through a B2B, use stuff like Powder Keg to make it a royal pain for the Landstill player to attack you, and avoid falling into the trap of playing the aggro role. You are the control deck here, and a Landstill player has to take the aggressive role or you will simply resolve a B2B and shit on him. Stuff to watch out for includes Pernicious Deed out of the 4 color build, Cunning Wish in the UWx builds, and Decree Of Justice, which can catch you with your pants down and is the main way you lose game 1.

Postboard things get messier and less simple. The presence of Krosan Grip and Extirpate really makes it a lot more complicated, which is why I said earlier that practice is key to this matchup. Knowing how to bait the Landstill player into tapping out on his or her own turn and what stuff is worth countering and what’s just chaff is crucial to winning games post-board.

Sideboarding is fairly simple. Bring in Jaces if you have them, along with any additional countermagic or anti-control tools. Stuff that can leave includes Shackles and Propaganda in the permanent oriented version, and Engineered Explosives in the stack oriented builds.

Matchup Summary:
Favorable for the Stack-Oriented builds.
Less favorable but still good for the Permanent-Oriented builds.

In the interests of keeping an already too long primer a bit shorter I’m making the next matchup summaries much shorter.

B/x Suicide builds are crappy matchups. In fact, they are among the worst non-combo matchups this deck has. Hope to get down as much creature hate as possible and try to ride out the storm, but don’t be surprised to lose this more often than not, no matter what version you’re playing.

Tomb-Stompy Variants can be equally obnoxious and are usually not particularly favorable, if at all. Dragon Stompy is a little easier than the others because Moon effects are useless against you, which gives them a lot of chaff game one, but after board it gets much harder.

Loam Variants are a pain in the ass because you usually don’t have much to do about Loam, although it is fully possible to win simply by keeping their win-conditions off the table through stuff like Shackles, Keg, and countermagic. Not particularly fun either way though.

Storm Combo is decidedly not fun. It is actually by far the worst matchup this deck has. You have no clock, and no matter how much countermagic you stockpile a well-timed Orim’s Chant or Abeyance will strip you of any chance to retaliate before the combo player nails your balls to the wall. Can you win? Sure. Will? Almost definitely not.

Non-Storm Combo is much more manageable due to the counterable nature of their threats. Save countermagic for the actual engine cards and don’t get tricked into letting a Chant or Abeyance resolve, as if you do chances are you will lose on the spot.

Cards/Engines Not Included:

Intuition/AK: Slow, ungainly, and not nearly good enough. Intuition for AK requires 5 mana to net 1 card. That’s not a particularly good deal with AV requires 1 mana to net 2 (with a delay), and FoF can net as many as 3 for 4 mana.

Counterbalance/Top: This is a big one, and one that will probably be asked about over and over again despite my mentioning it here, but basically this combo sucks in MUC. Before you all throw a fit, Counterbalance is not a hard lock. It’s also not free in terms of deck space. In case you haven’t noticed, MUC is both a very slow deck at actually killing an opponent, making it far easier for someone to break out of Counterbalance, and is lacking in free space to simply slot 7+ cards into the list. In fact, one of the major reasons I bothered to write this primer is because of how far MUC has come, and how close to optimized it truly is. Due to this level of optimization, there is very little room to cut 7 or more cards to make room for Counterbalance/Top.

On top of that, MUC isn’t the type of deck that needs to counter everything, which is one of the major arguments people usually use to pitch Counter/Top. They claim you can’t counter everything, which is why they want to include it. This is incorrect, simply because you don’t WANT to counter everything. What do you think stuff like Engineered Explosives and Vedalken Shackles are in these lists for? Because playing a deck that does nothing but attempt to counter things will get run over in the mid-game when other decks begin to throw too many threats at you for you to be able to counter all of them.

Cryptic Command: Slow, costs 4, and doesn’t do enough to warrant deck space. Yes it’s highly versatile, but nothing it offers is worth the price you have to pay for it.

Stifle: Too narrow, and too inefficient in terms of deckspace. A possible SB card, but nothing more.

Questions, concerns, flames, yo-momma jokes, and all other manner of inquiries can be directed at my PM box or posted here at your discretion.

[Doks]

Woohoo, I am # 1!

So first of all, nice to see you back from hospital (whatever you were suffering from).

Second:

Nice style of writing - it's the dry laconic "humour" without smileys that makes this new starting post worth reading.

I love the way you introduced the beginners regarding MUC to the possible ways MUC can go (thank you for linking my list btw).
I really love the Foils in your list as they allow you to tap out on T3 to drop a board control piece (nothing more annoying than having your Propaganda / Shackles dazed and then being hit by a Mongoose and Goyf...).
Other than this, there is not much I'd have to add right now (we're near to optimized lists so far, that's right. Maybe 2-4 variable slots depening on the build) except that the B/x Sui MUs are not that bad. Shackles is the way to go, just use everything you have to resolve one and the game will probably turn around when you're not too low on life. Get rid of fast finishers like Shade or their CA (Dark Confidant!) and the game is not that bad against that sort of decks.

I'll probably add something soon and I am glad to have a new thread with a summarizing introduction that will hopefully save us from unnecessary discussions about certain card choices ;)

So long, have a good night.

Doks

[Ozymandias]

With something like 7-8 cards between Propaganda and B2B in the maindeck, why not a copy (or two) of the Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale squeezed in somewhere? Especially in the sideboard, where it can come in and really gum up the works for a creature deck.

Of course, besides the "75 bucks each" thing.

[Doks]

It's wasteable and doesn't produce any mana, not even colorless, so it's not good in the early turns.
In the later turns, cumulative lock pieces (especially Propaganda!) and B2B seal the game more or less.
Letting your opponent pay 4 to attack only to get his single attacking creature shackled is fun - for you.
The other build blasts every relevant creature away and then just stops anything too dangerous from hitting the board.


Doks

[Sanguine Voyeur]

It's wasteable and doesn't produce any mana, not even colorless, so it's not good in the early turns. Don't consider Tabernacle a land when counting it. Although it is Wasteland-able, consider it an artifact. It also synergizes greatly with Propaganda.

[Kadaj]

I'm not a big fan of Tabernacle because it's usually fairly win-more. When it's really good it's usually good because you have out either Propaganda or B2B, in which case you should probably be winning anyway. There's also not a whole lot of room in either list to make space for it, but that's a secondary concern to the fact that it really doesn't pull it's own weight well enough.

[scantronboi]

Kadaj, could Misdirection find 2 slots in the current stages of MUC? I can still envision matchups against direct damage (red) and discard (black) where it would be excellent.

[Kadaj]

I don't anticipate Misdirection earning a slot in MUC anytime soon, no. Yes, it can be good against stuff like Cabal Therapy, Hymn to Tourach, and all manner of burn, but Burn is already helped tremendously by the 8+ hate cards you should probably be packing in your SB for Goblins and discard is usually not the sole reason you lose to decks like Eva Green. It's the discard, coupled with the LD, coupled with the MD Seal of Primordium, coupled with the Tarmogoyfs, etc. So no, I don't think Misdirection would be effective enough.

[Eldariel]

Also, Kadaj may be selling the Goblins match-up short. He once told me he's reached the point where it's about even for the board controlling version and I think it's reasonable to believe seeing that the 7 hard counters for the Vial/Lackey and the ability to put a stop to the horde with the 4 MD Propagandas to slow the game down to your pace (so Visions can resolve), along with the ability to Keg any Vials/Lackeys few turns later, it seems fairly decent.

At the point they are either casting spells or attacking and if they're attacking, they can't make those Goblinous turns of "Warchief > Matron > Pile > kill you". Also, thanks to the multitude of ways to deal with Vial, they should be short on mana, especially with B2B, forcing them to significantly slow down their tempo, opening the doors for a Morphling, Shackles or similar to take control of the board and finish the job.

The deck is brutal, no question, and when Propaganda doesn't appear, winning can be nigh' impossible (I should know, long ago I played Goblins in the testings and overran the then Propagandaless build practically every time), but thanks to the presence of the 4 MD Propagandas, the match-up is much more winnable, close enough that I could almost call it "even". It helps that Rishadan Ports are being cut all over the world.

EDIT: Have you considered Misdirection in the Disrupt-slot in the side? Or split it 2/2? Looks like being able to misdirect LD, discard and Vindicates could be tremendously helpful, evening up the pace of the game and potentially screwing them up with their Hymn (and allowing you to tap out for Powder Keg, et al.).

[Kadaj]

Against a list without Rishadan Port the matchup is much better, as the main way you lose is by not getting Propaganda fast enough. At any rate, the reason I rated the Goblins matchup as low as I did is because while I have personally been able to achieve decent results against Goblins in testing and in actual tournament play, I have played that matchup over a 100 times with my list and know it inside and out. Therefore, I have a distinct advantage over someone who has only played the list say 10 times total and only once against Goblins.

But yes, assuming you have some concept of what you're doing, the matchup isn't nearly as bad as it used to be for the permanent oriented version. It might even be constituted as "even", although that might be a bit of a stretch. Either way, it's still not fun at all. Especially when Propaganda doesn't show up.

Regarding Misdirection in the board, I had considered it briefly, but I prefer Disrupt because more often than not you'll have mana open in the early game against the sort of deck that will be attempting to throw millions of misdirectable disruption spells at your head. Disrupt is also much more flexible, being a serviceable card against other control of all kinds and even Burn and combo, whereas Misdirection is fairly narrow in application.

[Nihil Credo]

Regarding Misdirection in the board, I had considered it briefly, but I prefer Disrupt because more often than not you'll have mana open in the early game against the sort of deck that will be attempting to throw millions of misdirectable disruption spells at your head. Disrupt is also much more flexible, being a serviceable card against other control of all kinds and even Burn and combo, whereas Misdirection is fairly narrow in application.
If you have mana open in the early game, then Divert may be better than Misdirection. What about that one?

[Kadaj]

If you have mana open in the early game, then Divert may be better than Misdirection. What about that one?

You still run into the problem of Divert having a fairly narrow application whereas Disrupt is much more versatile. Yes, Divert is quite good against stuff like Hymn and Sinkhole, but so is Disrupt, and Disrupt is much better against opposing control, where it can fight opposing counterspells (yes I'm aware Divert can also do this, but Disrupt is better), cantrips, and stuff like Fact or Fiction when Divert would otherwise be dead.

If you know, or just anticipate, that your expected metagame will have a lot of targeted discard and other disruption then by all means include Divert, or Misdirection, in lieu of Disrupt, or perhaps in addition to. However, in a more open metagame I vastly prefer Disrupt due to the aformentioned flexibility that Divert and Misdirection both lack.

[Shimster]

Well written writeup! I am definitely going to play permanent based MUC at a tournament during the next months.

@ Kadaj: You once have played 25 lands, even without Foil. Are 24 enough to make a constant landdrop possible?

[thefreakaccident]

If you run any sort of draw, 24 lands is definitely goinf to give you a constanst stream of lands...

Nice write up, it was a pleasure to read, as well as informative...

I hadn't polished my list in quite some time, and have lost out on the newr techier lists... I will definitely try out the two primary lists you posted, they looks pretty solid...

Also, he may not run the fourth B2B because his meta does not have much control... or something to that extent.

[Illissius]

While it's true that your build isn't Draw-Go, I don't think Zvi's deck is a perfect analogue either; that deck was called Accelerated Blue, and used acceleration to power out bombs and threats. You still only have 2 Morphlings, 1 Efreet; Zvi had 3 Morphlings, 3 Masticores, 2 Palinchrons. Legacy doesn't have Monolith, so I'm not sure what it would look like here (and it's, incidentally, something I've been tinkering with for a while), but it would likely involve :2: lands, maybe Moxen or Mind Stones or something. (Faerie Stompy is the other deck which comes to mind, but that's off over the other end.)

[slyfer]

The choices of me and idraleo is like kadaj list but with the following mods:
-3 foil
-1 island
-1 powder keg
-1 back to basics (no good in multiples like propaganda)

+3 cryptic command.
+3 chalice of the void. The invaluable element of control. Generate infinite card advantage vs some decks.

We can both guarantee the deck has the same power.

[Brehn]

Great write-up. However, I missed the (necessary :[ ) Chalice- and TfK-bashing.

[Mirrislegend]

1) Excellent writeup. Major kudos.
2) Foil: Your explanation doesn't justify 3 copies of a card that has a huge drain on your resources, however numerous they may be.
3) Stifle: How is it narrow? LD, tempo control, stifling ringleaders, and pwning combo are just a few of the many uses of this cheap, wonderful card. I'm already eyeing this list as -2 Foil, +2 Stifle. Please explain why not.

[Kadaj]

While it's true that your build isn't Draw-Go, I don't think Zvi's deck is a perfect analogue either; that deck was called Accelerated Blue, and used acceleration to power out bombs and threats. You still only have 2 Morphlings, 1 Efreet; Zvi had 3 Morphlings, 3 Masticores, 2 Palinchrons. Legacy doesn't have Monolith, so I'm not sure what it would look like here (and it's, incidentally, something I've been tinkering with for a while), but it would likely involve :2: lands, maybe Moxen or Mind Stones or something. (Faerie Stompy is the other deck which comes to mind, but that's off over the other end.)

The reason I used that build as an analogue is because the basic idea is using permanents (in this case the creatures you mentioned) as the major way of controlling a game as opposed to counterspells. I'm well aware it's not a perfect comparison, but nothing's perfect in this world. I did briefly screw around, along with Eldariel, with an Accelerated Blue variant, but it runs into the issue of Masticore not being as ridiculous as it once was, among other things. Basically the important comparison between the two lists is the lack of counterspells and addition of more lands and permanent game winning bombs.

At any rate, Chalice of the Void and TfK were something I probably should've mentioned in the "Cards not included" section, and perhaps I will go back and edit it in. Basically, they suck in MUC, contrary to what people continually try to claim. In fact, Chalice sucks much for the same reason Counterbalance and Stifle suck. It provides tempo, not card advantage as some people seem to think, that this deck is ill-equipped to take advantage of.

That is, incidentally, only one of the reasons Foil is about a hundred times better in my list than Stifle. Stifle generates tempo. What, exactly, am I going to do with that tempo? Nothing, but MUC can't take advantage of it anyway. By the same token, Stifle and Foil fulfill two completely different roles. What is Stifle going to do against a turn 2 Tarmogoyf? Smile at it? Same thing with something like say, Argothian Enchatress, or a Dark Confidant. Foil shines there because it provides yet another method of keeping that sort of garbage off the table. It's also better against stuff like Lackey and Vial because instead of simply delaying their effects for a turn you actually stop them cold.

As far as the drain on your resources goes, chances are you will cast maybe one Foil with its alternate cost per game. That is an investment you can recoup easily with both AV and FoF supplying additional ammunition. Any additional Foils are usually hardcast, with the occasional alternate cost being paid against something like Landstill in a lategame counter-war where you'll usually be pitching excess lands anyway.

[ParkerLewis]

Hi Kadaj,

I only have one concern about the opening post : I think you're overestimating B2B. Don't misunderstand me, it's a very powerful card. But it's not as "ultimate" as you're implying (ie "auto-win against Threshold").

Keep in mind that most Threshold players (well, good ones anyway) will always fetch a basic land first against an unknown opponent. And probably second too if they don't feel the need for a third color / suspect something.
Most 3c lists nowadays run 6 duals (3 Tropical Island + 3 other blue ones of the splash color). Compared to four basics, 2 Islands, 1 Forest, 1 Swamp/Mountain/Plains (once again depending on the splash), and 7 fetches.

I know from experience (as a MUC player, and as a UGW Thresh player) that it's a good card, but not more - at least in this matchup, if you're facing a competent opponent.

Oh, and to be fair, I feel like you're underestimating the Goblin matchup ;). Once again, let's be frank, I'm not pretending it's good in any way. But it's not THAT terrible. I'd say (from my own - limited - experience) you definitely should win one match out of three, at the very least.

[Eldariel]

It's GG because you follow it up with other spells that they can't deal with without mana. Also, it's very rare that they'd be able to put all 4 basics out and many lists only play 2-3; at 2-3 they can effectively play one spell a turn and if there's a Propaganda out, they can either play a spell or attack once per turn. At that point it just takes a 'Pling, Shackles, Keg or a second Propaganda to end it.

[Mirrislegend]

Turns out I thought Foil had a different alternate cost that it does. It's such an obscure card these days. I agree with you now that I've looked it up, Kadaj, but I'm still a little wary about running 3 of them. If you do drop one of them, what would you consider putting in that slot? What tops your list of things that didn't make the cut strictly from space concerns?

[Kadaj]

An island, haha. This deck really wants 24.5 lands, so 24 is actually slightly on the low side. If you'd prefer a business spell, perhaps attempting Tabernacle at Pedrell Vale in that slot would be something to screw around with. Beyond that, I haven't really done much with that slot.

[ParkerLewis]

It's GG because you follow it up with other spells that they can't deal with without mana. Also, it's very rare that they'd be able to put all 4 basics out and many lists only play 2-3; at 2-3 they can effectively play one spell a turn and if there's a Propaganda out, they can either play a spell or attack once per turn. At that point it just takes a 'Pling, Shackles, Keg or a second Propaganda to end it.

That's basically what I meant - it's not GG by itself. I wasn't disputing the fact that it was an actual rock in their shoes.

[Maëlig]

Nice opening post, i believe MUC still has some good days to live in legacy.
Your MU analysis is missing a very popular deck atm (at least in my meta), namely ichorid. Propaganda doesn't seem to be enough to stop them, do we have even a slight chance to win by tunning the SB or is it better to just forget this MU?
I do not agree with you on foil though. I DO recognise that although it is a worse fow it is quite good in mid/late game when the number of cards and lands are not a problem anymore. But I think at this point you will have counters in hand anyways, and you should be dominating the game (alhough it can always help you in counter battles). I'd rather use force spike or spell snare which are better early-game, by preventing them from droping an early bomb.
Also, I would trade 1 propaganda MD for 1 vedalken shackles, but I guess this is purely a metagame decision.
Finally, wouldn't 1 or 2 repeal MD fit the deck well? It's a decent card on its own, and can help you to get rid of a random pesky artifact or enchantment that could have resolved early on (say, smokestack or humility for instance).

[Mirrislegend]

I find it hard to believe any non-LftL based deck wants for 24+ lands. And even if it did, wouldn't a little thinning in the form of a fetchland be nice? Or a singleton brainstorm, for those times you just need to see more cards, in case your answer is around the bend? Or repeal, which Maelig makes a good argument for. You really think the deck would need 1 more basic Island in place of a 4cc spell with a steep alternate cost, rather than any of those?

[Doks]

Well, you can't discard Fetchlands for Foil ;)
Against Ichorid, Propaganda should be gamebreaking enough.
In my stack-oriented build I just have 4 Propaganda and 3 Crypts MB which were usually enough to win.
Sure, they might get nuts via Breakthrough (where I have FoW and Kadaj Foil in addition!) and just wreck you before you can lay down a T3 Propaganda, but which deck wouldn't lose to that?

[Maëlig]

Against Ichorid, Propaganda should be gamebreaking enough.
The thing is, ray of revelation (SB) and angel of despair (MD) see alot of play, and since you have practically no way to hinder the dredge (they don't need to play spells), they will play these very often, and multiple times (you won't be able to counter 3 dread return in a row). The fact that you have no clock is also a big problem in this MU, as against any combo deck.


In my stack-oriented build I just have 4 Propaganda and 3 Crypts MB which were usually enough to win.

Tormod's crypt MD? Seriously?

[Alex "Sir Tech" Welp]

From "deadlock"
"Alex how do you liked Oona? It looks cool, but i dont know - i just like Morphling - saying gg against decks that dont pack mass removal.
What about Faeri Macabre? I dont think removing two cards is enough, especially against Ichorid and you cant even hardcast it. Its Needle proof though."

Oona is needed as it can create an army of its own and it is hands down better than Meloku. But you run morphling as well of course.

Farie Macabre is needed in the side as it IMO is the best graveyard hate for a blue deck. though MUC runs a lot of counterspells, against the current tier one combo decks (TES and Iggy.deck) the number of counterspells isn't always enough, as they always run 4 chant and sometimes X Abeyance as well. Farie Macabre gets around the O. Chant, (not abeyance, but most decks only pilot two of these if any). The vast majority of the time these decks need iggy to storm up, and when they put iggy on the stack you can discard FM, and remove the two cards they want to target. then let iggy resolve and get FM back again.
Against the dredge match up you add +4 propaganda, and FM to get rid of akroma's etc.... that is assuming you don't lock them under propaganda and BTB.

[Nihil Credo]

Is there a particular reason why Kadaj's version wouldn't want to run Spell Snare as well? It's good against literally every deck (only mediocre against Tomb/City decks), at any moment of the game, and your curve is so staggered that you'll have U open plenty of time.

[thefreakaccident]

The thing is, ray of revelation (SB) and angel of despair (MD) see alot of play, and since you have practically no way to hinder the dredge (they don't need to play spells), they will play these very often, and multiple times (you won't be able to counter 3 dread return in a row). The fact that you have no clock is also a big problem in this MU, as against any combo deck.


Tormod's crypt MD? Seriously?




Dregde is a very difficult MU... you have propaganda and keg MD to deal with tokens, obviously the prop is the stronger of those two... you can also bring in grave hate in the board post board, but I almost totally agree with you, the MU is quite terrible.


Echoing truth in the board is pretty decent, as it hits mass tokens (ETW/Bridge), and has to opportunity to also hit moebas/ichorids (can hurt them quite a bit if they get a lucky dredge or go agro with ichorids... I have actually won a couple games against unskilled ichorid players with that card...

Crypt is a very good card if your deck runs a quick clock, but I do not think it is for this deck... the white splashed builds can run another four propagandas in the form of ghostly prison, which would be backbreaking against ichorid, as well as other agro decks.

[Doks]

Tormod's crypt MD? Seriously?

Sorry, my fault, was a typing error - it's SB of course (look at my list posted by Kadaj). Preboard I just got to scoop against Dregde without Propaganda MB, but that's something I can live with.
Postboard, I have far too many counters I just can't side them all out (Usually -4 Spell Snare, -3 Leak, +4 Propaganda, +3 Crypt [if the Repeals were Echoing Truth they would get in, too, but they are Repeals for a reason ;)]). So I am left with 4 FoW and 4 Counterspell for their 2-3 Rays and usually 3 Dread Return (which are not always a mustcounter when you have multiple Propaganda out or they don't have Angel in yard if they really play it [never faced a version with it here in Germany]). As long as you have a Propaganda out and hinder them from building up an army that might hit you out of the blue (read: have EE or Keg ready to blow @0 for their tokens / remove their yard from time to time) you more or less have a fair chance.

[idraleo]

Dregde is a very difficult MU...


Sorry, probably you are playing the wrong deck. Dredge mu is favorable to MUC preboard and remains favorable post side, preboard they have no out from Propaganda, and it is not impossible to "survive" till 3rd turn to drop it. Post board the situation is the same, they will waste some turn to did Threapies on Propaganda or they got to keep slower hands or go to hard mulligan till they find a Chain of Vapor. In each of those cases, CotV will be better than Tormods because it stops at the same time Pithing (on Keg) Therapies and Chains, and it is more useful in other MU, first of all against TES, FT, Belcher, Burn.

Are you seriously going to run Tormod on your sideboard? There's other MUps where they could be useful except of Dredge?

[Kadaj]

Is there a particular reason why Kadaj's version wouldn't want to run Spell Snare as well? It's good against literally every deck (only mediocre against Tomb/City decks), at any moment of the game, and your curve is so staggered that you'll have U open plenty of time.

Yes, a very simple reason. What would you cut for it? Foil serves a specific role, once again, that Spell Snare cannot fill. Namely, an early game pitch-counter that has the flexibility to be utilized in the late game as well. Yes, Spell Snare is good against a lot, but Foil is more or less good against everything and hits a much wider range of targets.

If I had unlimited space obviously I'd include Spell Snare, but seeing as I don't, I can't.

[Hopo]

How's monoblue handling loam decks? I'm asking since I don't have a clue. I was just wondering if there's any use for Declaration of Naught, and came to a conclusion that it answers best recurring threats. Then I started thinking of recurring playables and loam was the first I thought. All kinds of survival/genesis stuff also. And Cabal Therapy -heavy decks, like Ichorid and Aluren.

[slyfer]

Without chalice @2 it's pretty hard game1. Ichorid is playable.
You deal with recursion postboard with tormod's + faerie macabre. The rest of the side is red hate.

[Brehn]

Note: there's also the possibility to include Cunning Wish in a stack-oriented build like Doks'. Since you're splashing Basics anyway, you might consider Wish targets like Swords to Plowshares, Enlightened Tutor (it's card disadvantage but it's the same as it is in Landstill: a "I win now"-card) or Extirpate. I have gone so far to include one or two duals in a Wish-build; it surely doesn't work too well with Back to Basics, but the additional stability of your manabase makes up for this in some metas.

[Kadaj]

Loam is a sort of weird matchup. There's not a whole lot you can do about Loam itself, particularly not game 1, but you'd be surprised how easy it is to make it nearly impossible for the Loam player to actually kill you before you get out a Morphling or something that makes it very difficult for them to win before you kill them. It's one of the few matchups where one could conceivably classify MUC as the aggro deck, or more accurately aggro-control. You're role is to let Loam do whatever they want with cycling lands and Loam itself, but do NOT let anything like Seismic Assault, Terravore, Goyf, etc, resolve unless you have a Shackles or other immediate answer available. Use Keg to keep manlands away from your life total and kill them before they can take advantage of the inevitability Loam provides.

[idraleo]

Consider that Vendillion Clique helps a lot against Loam, they are perfect to put Loam on bottom library giving to your opponent a random card, and simoultaneously they are a good 3/1 unbloccable beater...

[thefreakaccident]

Sorry, probably you are playing the wrong deck. Dredge mu is favorable to MUC preboard and remains favorable post side, preboard they have no out from Propaganda, and it is not impossible to "survive" till 3rd turn to drop it. Post board the situation is the same, they will waste some turn to did Threapies on Propaganda or they got to keep slower hands or go to hard mulligan till they find a Chain of Vapor. In each of those cases, CotV will be better than Tormods because it stops at the same time Pithing (on Keg) Therapies and Chains, and it is more useful in other MU, first of all against TES, FT, Belcher, Burn.

Are you seriously going to run Tormod on your sideboard? There's other MUps where they could be useful except of Dredge?



I said crypt wasn't for this deck in my post... but whatever...

Ichorid is not a good MU by any stretch of the imagination, unless you are mulliganing for your propaganda, you will not see it by turn 3 every game, arguing that you beat a deck because you run a specific card is not a good arguement, that's like saying you beat goblins 70% of the time because you run shackles.

Your opponents obviously must not know how to pilot their decks properly, or you just haven't tested the MU at all. Ichorid is and probably will remain a tough MU for MUC for a long time to come...

Now, you can board in hate cards in the sideboard, but being mono-blue, there are very few cards we have access to.

Lets not turn this into an agruement, MUC is good, but it is still allowed to have some bad MUs.

[Kadaj]

Ichorid is not a good matchup. Anyone who claims otherwise hasn't tested it nearly enough, or is just blowing smoke. Seriously, Propaganda is not nearly enough to win Game 1 with any regularity considering they will have outs in the form of various bounce spells, and it will be hard to fight back with countermagic because Therapies will likely be flying everywhere. Game 2 gets better for versions that pack actual graveyard hate, but even then it's still no better than 40-60 post-board.

[Dont_Stop_Believin]

Hey I was told to post here, so here it goes.

Why is there a consensus that Brainstorm isnt good in this archetype? And if this is somehow true, why would it not be beneficial to run some fetchlands to make Brainstorm more useful?

[Brehn]

Dont_Stop_Believin: Just read the opening post. There is no consensus.

Kadaj: Ichorid doesn't play maindeck bounce, so if Propaganda hits Game 1, you win. Still a bad matchup though.

[Kadaj]

I've seen a few lists with MD Chain of Vapor and crap like Angel of Despair of whathaveyou as Dread Return targets, in which case you don't immediately win if Propaganda hits, although it is one hell of a thorn in their side. But yes, if they don't MD bounce Game 1 is much less terrible. As you said, it's still not exactly good though.

Edit:

Dont_Stop_Believin, read the opening post and see if that clarifies the positions for you. If you still have questions about it after that obviously we'd be glad to answer them.

[ebbitten]

Also Ray of Revalation or whatever the flashbackable enchantment destruction still sees some play in some sideboards and seems like it would rock your propagandas, making g2 and g3 a little better than g1 but not by a ton.

[idraleo]

I've seen a few lists with MD Chain of Vapor and crap like Angel of Despair of whathaveyou as Dread Return targets, in which case you don't immediately win if Propaganda hits, although it is one hell of a thorn in their side. But yes, if they don't MD bounce Game 1 is much less terrible. As you said, it's still not exactly good though.


Sorry but i'm not understanding how they could won G1 after you play a Propaganda, assuming that your version plays Foil that gives you more chances to stop theyr first threats to drop Propaganda, considering that if you cast a B2B they have to start drawing instead of dredging to get some Land or LED, considering that you if you are able ti drop a Propaganda the only thing to handle is Dread Return, maindeck CoV and\or Angel of Despair probably is played by 1 or 2 smurfs all over the world. The only target other than Akroma and Zealot that have a sense in dredge to be reanimated by a Dread is SSS; any other target, from Ancestor Chosen to Angel of Despair to red Akroma are basically worst than the previous i've mentioned.

Consider that in g1 is fair that your opponent, except someone who knows you, will be able to know that you' re playing MUC if you don' t start with AV>go. If he cast some Therapies between turn 1 and 2, is simply to assume that they' ve keeped slow hands without as much components as they need to do a quick end up. If dredge players saw 2 Island as your first land drops, it is much viable that they are gonna to call Trinket Mage by Therapies instead of a random Propaganda.

On g2 they could side in hate, but almost slowing theyr gameplan and giving you the possibility to get more answer to handle better theyr threats. They have to side in both answer to Propaganda AND to Powder Keg\Tormod\Macabre, that will be CoV and Pithing, but it makes even more stronger CotV if you play it from your sb or directly into maindeck.

[deviant]

Idraleo: have you actually played the Ichorid MU?

It's funny how everyone seems to have such a great MU against that deck, just like everyone rapes ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh too!

Propaganda in itself is too slow. It needs additional disruption, like FoW to get there in time. Foiling t1 on the other hand probably just means you can't get the landdrops for your propaganda, and your likely to get it therapied anyways.

Chaining Kegs can also buy you time, but not many turns since Ichorids are quite a clock all alone.

[Ozymandias]

As an Ichorid player, I'll have you know that if your big draw spell gets countered, it slows you down considerably. A hand like

LED, City, Ichorid, Golgari Grave-Troll, Breakthrough, Golgari Thug, Bridge From Below

Or any hand with only one draw spell is going to slow things down.

The average had for this deck has between two and three lands. Pitching a slow card and an Island gives the deck three whole turns on the draw to draw an Island- time they gat once they Force the draw spell.

[Krm]

At any rate, Chalice of the Void and TfK were something I probably should've mentioned in the "Cards not included" section, and perhaps I will go back and edit it in. Basically, they suck in MUC, contrary to what people continually try to claim. In fact, Chalice sucks much for the same reason Counterbalance and Stifle suck. It provides tempo, not card advantage as some people seem to think, that this deck is ill-equipped to take advantage of.


I tried to make that concept with chalice work for a while and I dont understand why you dismiss it so abruptly. I used Mox Diamond + 4 Chalice which was a "debateable" choice, but it still worked okay. You also benefit from having a possible turn 2 counterspell. So I thought this approach might at least have some potential.
I like chalice in this deck because it solves the problem muc has against decks that play a lot of small threats that still are dangerous in the sum. You cant counter all the spells you need to counter.
I dont understand the point that chalice isnt card advantage. 1 card deals with numerous cards of your opponent and thus is card advantage, same goes for counterbalance, a chalice for 2 is like a spell snare with buyback. If you think of this as merely tempo advantage, do you mean that once the opponent gets to remove the chalice he still can play his shit? A lot of "threats" muc plays work that way too though. Back to Basics or propaganda dont do a lot more than creating tempo advantage cause the opponent has to find a solution which he eventually will find and in that time you can stabilize draw a load of cards and counters and win the game yourself. This is tempo advantage too, just on a different scale as for example stifling an enemy's fetchland.. The advantage you gain through chalice or cb top is actually quite smiliar.
I mean I like the list from your opening post and I certainly dont claim to know a lot about this deck. I'm just curious why you think so negatively about trying chalice/tok.

[Maëlig]

Casting chalice at 1 turn 2 or at 2 turn 4 is alot less sexy than the awesome plays stax and stompy decks are capable of. And running sub-optimal cards such as moxes isn't going to solve this problem effectively.
That being said, I agree that the idea shouldn't be dismissed alltogether, some builds are quite decent with it (but I'd rather work on a mono-U stax-like if I start going that way).

[Kadaj]

I tried to make that concept with chalice work for a while and I dont understand why you dismiss it so abruptly. I used Mox Diamond + 4 Chalice which was a "debateable" choice, but it still worked okay. You also benefit from having a possible turn 2 counterspell. So I thought this approach might at least have some potential.
I like chalice in this deck because it solves the problem muc has against decks that play a lot of small threats that still are dangerous in the sum. You cant counter all the spells you need to counter.
I dont understand the point that chalice isnt card advantage. 1 card deals with numerous cards of your opponent and thus is card advantage, same goes for counterbalance, a chalice for 2 is like a spell snare with buyback. If you think of this as merely tempo advantage, do you mean that once the opponent gets to remove the chalice he still can play his shit? A lot of "threats" muc plays work that way too though. Back to Basics or propaganda dont do a lot more than creating tempo advantage cause the opponent has to find a solution which he eventually will find and in that time you can stabilize draw a load of cards and counters and win the game yourself. This is tempo advantage too, just on a different scale as for example stifling an enemy's fetchland.. The advantage you gain through chalice or cb top is actually quite smiliar.
I mean I like the list from your opening post and I certainly dont claim to know a lot about this deck. I'm just curious why you think so negatively about trying chalice/tok.

The major issues I have with Chalice are as follows. First, it requires other crap to be good. Chalice on its own with nothing to supliment it is extremely weak in MUC because the earliest it can come down is turn 2, at which point it is probably a turn too late to prevent a dangerous 1 drop from hitting the field. Chalice at 2 is so slow that if your opponent can't answer it they deserve to lose, and so on and so forth. There just isn't enough room in good MUC lists for the 8+ cards necessary to make Chalice not suck.

The second, and final, reason I don't like Chalice is because it really doesn't help any of the matchups you'd want help in. Yes, it makes Threshold slightly better, but Threshold is already good. Great no, but even with Chalice it still isn't all that much better precisely because of the lack of support I mentioned in my first reason. Chalice then goes on to suck against Goblins and Landstill, which basically leaves me questioning what you do want Chalice against. Combo? Sure, but it isn't enough on it's own (see a trend) there, and realistically you'll be losing to most Storm Combo with or without Chalice anyway.

[Proz0r]

I'd like to point out some errors from the opening post.


Brainstorm is not an auto-include in every single deck playing blue.

In non-Chalice/Trinisphere decks it is.



Zvi was (and probably still is) one of the all-time great Magic players and deck designers. Brainstorm was quite legal in Standard at the time he put that build together, so why didn’t he include it? For exactly the same reasons I didn’t. It doesn’t do enough without the presence of shuffle effects or a much higher need for early game card selection to warrant its slots.

This was all before fetchlands existed. Adding 5-8 fetchlands and 4 Brainstorms will improve the consistency of your deck.



Intuition for AK requires 5 mana to net 1 card.

It nets 2 cards. It can also draw you 7 cards for 1U + 1U + 2U. The AK + Intuition engine was decent before Extirpate existed.

You don't mention Flash of Insight which is really strong in this deck. It always provides card advantage, cycles turn 3 if needed, and is at least an Impulse when flashed back. Late game a hard casted Flash can find your win conditions. I suggest you test two of them.

You say Tarmogoyf is a big problem, I assume Dark Confidant and Tombstalker are problems also. Have you ever thought about splashing white for Swords to Plowshares? You can still play a really solid manabase (4 nonbasics). You can play a lone Back to Basics and a lone Moat, both found with Cunning Wish -> Enlightened Tutor. You don't need Propaganda nor Shackles anymore. This also allows the use of Decree of Justice which is better than Morphling (run 2 DoJ / 1 Morphling). You can now run the superior Engineered Explosives. With a small black splash things get even better. You can board Thoughtseize to combat combo and you have Planar Void to combat Ichorid. The splashes make your bad matchups alot better. This leads to a very solid deck which I have tested for months, I can justify every inclusion:

4 Spell Snare
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

4 Brainstorm
3 Fact or Fiction
2 Flash of Insight

1 Back to Basics
1 Moat
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Cunning Wish

1 Morphling
2 Decree of Justice

8 Fetch
10 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea

Side:
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Extirpate
1 Ray of Distortion
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Diabolic Edict
4 Planar Void
3 Thoughtseize
2 Chainer's Edict
1 Oblivion Stone

[Thomas1991]

lands
16 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand

creatures/kill
2 Morphling

enchantments
3 Counterbalance
3 Back to Basics

artifacts
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
3 Vedalken Shackles (also a kill)

Instant
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Rune Snag
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare/force spike
3 Impulse

sideboard
3 Powder Keg
3 Pithing Needle
4 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Vedalken Shackles
4 Hydroblast

Counterbalance:I know counterbalance does'nt look great, but just try it.
It counters without giving carddisadvantage it's great. (it's posible to counter krosan grip.)

Sensei's divining top: it's great with counterbalance and the fetchland. it searches for everything. 22 land is enough to play when you play the top because you can't be wasteland en can dig for land.

spellsnare/force spike: i prefer force sike because it's better late game.

Rune snag: better than mana leak.


Back to basics: the main reason to play this deck, it's great agains al good legacy decks.


shackles: verry good to gain control and also a kill.

The rest is plain simple.

the only problems are the earl game.

for vial and lackey you only have Force of will. but the aggro matchup was crap anyway. (after boarding you have pyroblast, powder keg and pithing needle.

[Kadaj]

I'd like to point out some errors from the opening post.

In non-Chalice/Trinisphere decks it is.


This was all before fetchlands existed. Adding 5-8 fetchlands and 4 Brainstorms will improve the consistency of your deck.

Really? Why not say why instead of just claiming it to be a fact? It really does piss me off when people just come in and attempt to claim something as fact without providing any reasoning behind it. Especially considering you're wrong in this case. Adding Brainstorm to my build does not improve the consistency of the deck. In fact, it reduces it because to fit Brainstorm you have to knock down the number of cards like B2B, Keg, etc, that you can include. You could ostensibly reduce the number of lands instead, but that would be an even bigger mistake because this deck absolutely needs 23+ lands, even with Brainstorm. Doks build can get away with less because he has Impulse in addition to Brainstorm.

Yes, Brainstorm is very strong with fetchlands, no one is disputing that. What I am disputing is that it's the wrong kind of strength for my build. I have no need of a cantrip that reduces room for the cards that make my build so strong in the first place. Having Propaganda, B2B, and Keg be 4 ofs is precisely why the permanent-oriented build has better Threshold and Goblins matchups than any other MUC build out there. And yes, I realize Brainstorm can dig for the aformentioned cards, but at what cost? You've already reduced the number of them you can actually find, on top of adding a whole set of other vulnerabilities by adding fetchlands, and thus defeated the purpose of adding Brainstorm in the first place.

As an aside, if I felt Engineered Explosives was stronger than Powder Keg I'd probably just suck it up and run Fetchlands and Brainstorm. However, because I don't, I don't think Brainstorm is worth it in permanent oriented MUC. Obviously you disagree with me, but considering you've literally given me no reasons to back up your disagreement other than just blanket claims, I'm not particularly inclined to pay your arguments any heed.

And that's not even getting into how terrible Flash of Insight is, or how bad your Uw build is.

Flash of Insight sucks. Seriously, it costs a whopping five mana before it becomes even remotely serviceable, and for that much mana I'd rather just play Tidings. Yes you can flash it back, but to do that you have to have either completely wasted a card by using it for 1 or something, or you've invested 5+ mana to make it slightly less terrible. Honestly, six mana for an impulse? Thanks but no thanks.

I never said Tarmogoyf was a problem, I said it was a threat out of Threshold. There's a difference. Tarmogoyf is not a problem at all, considering both Powder Keg and Vedalken Shackles deal with it quite easily. Same thing applies to Dark Confidant. Tombstalker is obviously not dying to Keg anytime soon, but it can be stolen with Shackles and is much more easily stopped by counterspells due to its heavier required investment.

Next, that Uwb build is awful. It isn't MUC anymore, it's bad Uwb control. On top of the fact that it doesn't belong in this thread, it's also weak against two of the three major decks in the format (by comparison, my Brainstormless MUC is far better against both Goblins and Landstill). You'll never beat Goblins with that build. They will run you over in the mid-game every single time. You have a much more vulnerable mana-base, little to no mass removal (EE is not nearly enough), and a "trump" card in Moat that Goblins will never let you play precisely because of how much weaker your manabase is. You can't beat Goblins with 1 for 1s, no matter how good STP is.

You can't even play control against Landstill because you have no trump. You have a singleton B2B, which isn't enough, and a bunch of other narrow and/or weak cards that a Landstill player can just ignore. And once again, your manabase is much more vulnerable to Wasteland recursion, which simply hands the Landstill player another advantage that normal MUC doesn't give them. Yes, splashing two colors gives you more options, but at the cost of giving away everything that makes MUC good in the first place.

And seriously people, there is a reason I spent so much time talking about how much Counterbalance/Top doesn't belong in MUC in the opening post. Namely because it doesn't. As far as I know, and I know a lot, no MUC build with Counterbalance has ever made Top 8 in a major Legacy tournament. There is a reason for that! Because Balance/Top is awful in MUC! The reasons for which are explained quite thoroughly in the opening post.

[Eldariel]

Kadaj already pointed the most stuff out, so I'll be brief:


I'd like to point out some errors from the opening post.

In non-Chalice/Trinisphere decks it is.

By what token? Fetchlands open you up to Stifle which makes your match-up against Tempo Thresh much worse and that's one match-up you don't want to weaken. Further, fetchlands thin your deck of lands (in a deck that wants to hit all its landdrops) and deal damage to you. In return, they allow you to play Brainstorm. That's quite the price to pay.

As if that isn't enough an incentive, you should remember that the deck is built to be exceedingly redundant, so Brainstorm's effect isn't even all that great. You should be drawing real cards, not filtering. You could play Brainstorm and the build would be quite decent (as Doks proves), but fact is that there're many reasons not to play it and it is the correct call in appropriate versions too. It's most important when you don't want to give away any ground vs. Threshold (which is very important, since Threshold is the #1 deck in the format; opening yourself up to their tempo plan quite risky).


This was all before fetchlands existed. Adding 5-8 fetchlands and 4 Brainstorms will improve the consistency of your deck.

It will also open you up to all the mentioned issues, while not relevantly improving your draws.


It nets 2 cards. It can also draw you 7 cards for 1U + 1U + 2U. The AK + Intuition engine was decent before Extirpate existed.

You don't mention Flash of Insight which is really strong in this deck. It always provides card advantage, cycles turn 3 if needed, and is at least an Impulse when flashed back. Late game a hard casted Flash can find your win conditions. I suggest you test two of them.

Yes, it's decent but instead you could just be drawing real cards with no regards to graveyard, less mana per card paid and so on. Decent =/= good. You shouldn't play every Instant that generates card advantage just because they're instants and generate card advantage - you should play the best instants that generate card advantage. That means Fact or Fiction. The secondary draw shouldn't probably be Instant since the other Instants aren't in the same world mana efficiency, digging and speedwise.


You say Tarmogoyf is a big problem, I assume Dark Confidant and Tombstalker are problems also. Have you ever thought about splashing white for Swords to Plowshares? You can still play a really solid manabase (4 nonbasics). You can play a lone Back to Basics and a lone Moat, both found with Cunning Wish -> Enlightened Tutor. You don't need Propaganda nor Shackles anymore. This also allows the use of Decree of Justice which is better than Morphling (run 2 DoJ / 1 Morphling). You can now run the superior Engineered Explosives. With a small black splash things get even better. You can board Thoughtseize to combat combo and you have Planar Void to combat Ichorid. The splashes make your bad matchups alot better. This leads to a very solid deck which I have tested for months, I can justify every inclusion:
<list>

That list sacrifices much of MUC's real power in B2B, Vedalken Shackles et co. Further, that list can't use B2B efficiently since it turns off your splash colours almost entirely, among others making Moat uncastable. Further, that list should be Landstill. Seriously, if you wanna splash and play non-basics, you should be playing manlands and building Landstill since that gives you one of the most efficient drawers in the format in Standstill.

MUC has a very distinct gameplan in mana denial and taxing effects to allow the draw-effects to kick in and take over with Kegs, Shackles or Morphling. That plan really gets thrown to trashcan with splashing so may as well go all the way with an alternative, solid gameplan.


Counterbalance:I know counterbalance does'nt look great, but just try it.
It counters without giving carddisadvantage it's great. (it's posible to counter krosan grip.)

Do you really think the guy who spent a month writing this just spurts crap out of his mouth? You owe him the benefit of doubt that maybe, just maybe he has tested what he talks about, having thought it to be good at one point, finding out it isn't and is now telling you why. You'd do well to listen to him. Counterbalance looks awesome, but it doesn't work out in practice. If you want to play Counterbalance, play a deck that can put pressure on while keeping the opponent locked under it. Same with Chalice.


Sensei's divining top: it's great with counterbalance and the fetchland. it searches for everything. 22 land is enough to play when you play the top because you can't be wasteland en can dig for land.

You die to Stifle on your fetches. Congratulations, you just screwed up your aggro/control match-up. Oh yeah, you also fucked yourself up against black decks that just blow up your lands; gl finding 3-4 extras. Seriously, 25 is a good number; you need to hit 4 lands spending all your mana on defensive spells on the early turns. That means you need enough lands to draw 4 in a row.


spellsnare/force spike: i prefer force sike because it's better late game.

Umm...que?


Rune snag: better than mana leak.

Umm...k...


for vial and lackey you only have Force of will. but the aggro matchup was crap anyway. (after boarding you have pyroblast, powder keg and pithing needle.

Except if you, you know, play Propaganda (nice Lackey-dropped army; now go home or pay up!) and Powder Keg (solves Vials nicely, and everything else given time) main along with even some Foils (they look silly to me, but I bet the man knows what he's doing - he's tested the deck since Legacy existed; also, they make sense). 'cause you know, those changes totally weren't made to make Goblins winnable...oh wait!

[Bahamuth]

I fail to see why the Storm combo (Non-solidarity that is) matchup is bad. You have 11 counters in your mainboard, of which 7 can be cast on turn 0. You have Powder Keg to clear EtW tokens and you have B2B, which is awesome against FT and TES when dropped at the right moment (after you've thrown a bunch of counters at your opponent preventing him from going off).

If my metagame doesn't have any Goblins/Burn/Sligh at all, what kind of sideboard would you suggest?

[Kadaj]

I fail to see why the Storm combo (Non-solidarity that is) matchup is bad. You have 11 counters in your mainboard, of which 7 can be cast on turn 0. You have Powder Keg to clear EtW tokens and you have B2B, which is awesome against FT and TES when dropped at the right moment (after you've thrown a bunch of counters at your opponent preventing him from going off).

Because you have no clock. You only have so many counters, and a good combo player will just sit and wait until they have multiple Chants/Abeyances, and force you to expend all of your countermagic defending against that, before promptly killing you.


If my metagame doesn't have any Goblins/Burn/Sligh at all, what kind of sideboard would you suggest?

Uh. That's a good question. Probably something to the tune of:

X4 Tormod's Crypt/Faerie Macabre
X4 Repeal
X1 Vedalken Shackles
X3 Jace Beleren
X3 Declaration of Naught (I'm not sure about this, but it was decent when I was testing against Loam and the like)

[Bahamuth]

Because you have no clock. You only have so many counters, and a good combo player will just sit and wait until they have multiple Chants/Abeyances, and force you to expend all of your countermagic defending against that, before promptly killing you.



Uh. That's a good question. Probably something to the tune of:

X4 Tormod's Crypt/Faerie Macabre
X4 Repeal
X1 Vedalken Shackles
X3 Jace Beleren
X3 Declaration of Naught (I'm not sure about this, but it was decent when I was testing against Loam and the like)

Why is Repeal any good? Against what deck?
Isn't Crypt much better against Loam than Declaration? Could you define 'and the like'.
What about the Jace slots if there is also not much control present, but a fair amout of combo and black aggro (and thresh and loam).

EDIT: Perhaps Stifle would be a good sideboard card against combo. Or Chalice. Or ever Mystic Remora (that's mostly just cool though).

[Kadaj]

Repeal is a catchall, it's decent against lots of random aggro, midrange, aggro-control, whathaveyou. Declaration of Naught is good against decks that rely on a single set of cards to do their dirtywork. For example, Loam, Enchantress, non-storm combo, etc. If you have little control but lots of aggro-control Divert or Misdirection could be worth a slot to make their disruption play against them.

Something like, say:

X4 Faerie Macabre (I like it more than Crypt, but this can be either or)
X3 Stifle/Repeal (Depends on whether you expect more Combo or aggroish stuff)
X4 Divert
X3 Declaration of Naught
X1 Vedalken Shackles

Chalice doesn't do enough and Mystic Remora falls into the 'danger of cool things' category. At any rate, building sideboards is something that requires full knowledge of what you want to be aiming at and what kind of percentages you want to achieve against the decks in question. It's really hard to sit here and say "Well, there's not a lot of red, so play X, Y, and Z." when you don't know the specific details of the metagame, what matchups you want to improve, and what you expect to run into trouble against.

[Proz0r]

Really? Why not say why instead of just claiming it to be a fact? Adding Brainstorm to my build does not improve the consistency of the deck. In fact, it reduces it because to fit Brainstorm you have to knock down the number of cards like B2B, Keg, etc, that you can include. You could ostensibly reduce the number of lands instead, but that would be an even bigger mistake because this deck absolutely needs 23+ lands, even with Brainstorm. Doks build can get away with less because he has Impulse in addition to Brainstorm. And yes, I realize Brainstorm can dig for the aformentioned cards, but at what cost? You've already reduced the number of them you can actually find, on top of adding a whole set of other vulnerabilities by adding fetchlands, and thus defeated the purpose of adding Brainstorm in the first place.

If you need proof, please check all top8 decks that run blue and don't run Chalice of the Void. I probably can't come up with better "proof". You can cut one land, then cut 3 other cards. Brainstorm will obviously improve the consistency of any blue non-Chalice deck, finding lands early game, finding FoW early game, shuffling garbage away late game. It will find your better cards in the most efficient way. You can cut the worst cards. I assume you know what the worst 3 cards in your deck are if you have been playing your deck for such a long time.



As an aside, if I felt Engineered Explosives was stronger than Powder Keg I'd probably just suck it up and run Fetchlands and Brainstorm. However, because I don't, I don't think Brainstorm is worth it in permanent oriented MUC. Obviously you disagree with me, but considering you've literally given me no reasons to back up your disagreement other than just blanket claims, I'm not particularly inclined to pay your arguments any heed.

I have found EE to be infinately better because it will blow up the permanent(s) immediately. A minor upside is that it can destroy enchantments (Deed). Powder Keg is probably better in the early game though. I think this is just personal preference.



And that's not even getting into how terrible Flash of Insight is, or how bad your Uw build is. Flash of Insight sucks. Seriously, it costs a whopping five mana before it becomes even remotely serviceable, and for that much mana I'd rather just play Tidings. Yes you can flash it back, but to do that you have to have either completely wasted a card by using it for 1 or something, or you've invested 5+ mana to make it slightly less terrible. Honestly, six mana for an impulse? Thanks but no thanks.

Please do not make claims about the stength of my deck before you have tested it. If you let Flash sit in your hand until turn 5, you have made a horrible play and don't play the deck correctly. The correct play would be to cycle it turn 3. It is basically 2U + 1U for an Impulse + cantrip (early game). Late game this card is nuts, which is why I included it. It will help me find my kill condition and make a clock. In addition it combo's OK with FoF and Cunning Wish.


Next, that Uwb build is awful. It isn't MUC anymore, it's bad Uwb control. On top of the fact that it doesn't belong in this thread, it's also weak against two of the three major decks in the format (by comparison, my Brainstormless MUC is far better against both Goblins and Landstill). You'll never beat Goblins with that build. They will run you over in the mid-game every single time. You have a much more vulnerable mana-base, little to no mass removal (EE is not nearly enough), and a "trump" card in Moat that Goblins will never let you play precisely because of how much weaker your manabase is. You can't beat Goblins with 1 for 1s, no matter how good STP is.

Against Goblins my game 1 is OK due to Moat. The manabase is solid because I play only 4 nonbasics. If Goblins were a contender, you could easily add 4 Plague to the sideboard.


You can't even play control against Landstill because you have no trump. You have a singleton B2B, which isn't enough, and a bunch of other narrow and/or weak cards that a Landstill player can just ignore. And once again, your manabase is much more vulnerable to Wasteland recursion, which simply hands the Landstill player another advantage that normal MUC doesn't give them.

Again, have you tested it? My landstill matchup is favorable. The biggest reason for this is that I have a draw engine, while they have Ideas Unbounds. Wasteland recursion against 4 nonbasic lands? Nice play sir. In addition, Brainstorm will fetch nonbasics away if need be.


Yes, splashing two colors gives you more options, but at the cost of giving away everything that makes MUC good in the first place.

Is MUC good? Not in my opinion, which is why I made these splashes. Your claims of my list being bad are unfounded because you did not test it. You also clearly did not even read the whole decklist before posting. I hope you will read my post and list carefully before replying again. You disappoint me.


By what token? Fetchlands open you up to Stifle which makes your match-up against Tempo Thresh much worse and that's one match-up you don't want to weaken. Further, fetchlands thin your deck of lands (in a deck that wants to hit all its landdrops) and deal damage to you. In return, they allow you to play Brainstorm. That's quite the price to pay.

As if that isn't enough an incentive, you should remember that the deck is built to be exceedingly redundant, so Brainstorm's effect isn't even all that great. You should be drawing real cards, not filtering. You could play Brainstorm and the build would be quite decent (as Doks proves), but fact is that there're many reasons not to play it and it is the correct call in appropriate versions too. It's most important when you don't want to give away any ground vs. Threshold (which is very important, since Threshold is the #1 deck in the format; opening yourself up to their tempo plan quite risky). It will also open you up to all the mentioned issues, while not relevantly improving your draws.

If Stifle is the only notable reason not to play Fetchlands, then you should definately play them. You can often play around Stifle also. Brainstorm doesn't relevantly improve your draws? Of course it does, it is the reason to play the card. I am sure most people that play Brainstorm will agree with me here.


Yes, it's decent but instead you could just be drawing real cards with no regards to graveyard, less mana per card paid and so on. Decent =/= good. You shouldn't play every Instant that generates card advantage just because they're instants and generate card advantage - you should play the best instants that generate card advantage. That means Fact or Fiction. The secondary draw shouldn't probably be Instant since the other Instants aren't in the same world mana efficiency, digging and speedwise.

Flash is decent from turn 3 when you can cycle it. After that, it gets totally nuts. I should play the best instants that generate card advantage, which means playing FoF, Flash and (virtual CA) Brainstorm.

I have tested Ancestral Visions. Granted it is nuts when you suspend it turn 1. From turn 4 it gets pretty bad, which is the reason why I don't play it.


That list sacrifices much of MUC's real power in B2B, Vedalken Shackles et co. Further, that list can't use B2B efficiently since it turns off your splash colours almost entirely, among others making Moat uncastable. Further, that list should be Landstill. Seriously, if you wanna splash and play non-basics, you should be playing manlands and building Landstill since that gives you one of the most efficient drawers in the format in Standstill.

MUC has a very distinct gameplan in mana denial and taxing effects to allow the draw-effects to kick in and take over with Kegs, Shackles or Morphling. That plan really gets thrown to trashcan with splashing so may as well go all the way with an alternative, solid gameplan.

Vedalken Shackles is weak in my opinion (otherwise I would play it), I prefer Moat. I will gladly take one possible dead card (Moat) when my opponents lands don't untap anymore, or tap a nonbasic to cast it. I will win anyway if my opponent has tapped his nonbasic lands and B2B hits.

Indeed your MUC lists have a very distinct game plan. I think the game plan is weak and can be improved, that's why I posted my list. Is my game plan of better than the MUC game plan? In my opinion, yes. How can you disagree if you have not tested the list?

[ebbitten]

60 island.dec

Lots of land, never has to mulligan, sight of islands will make oppenents run in fear.


"Indeed your MUC lists have a very distinct game plan. I think the game plan is weak and can be improved, that's why I posted my list. Is my game plan of better than the MUC game plan? In my opinion, yes. How can you disagree if you have not tested the list?"

[ParkerLewis]

If you need proof, please check all top8 decks that run blue and don't run Chalice of the Void. I probably can't come up with better "proof". You can cut one land, then cut 3 other cards. Brainstorm will obviously improve the consistency of any blue non-Chalice deck, finding lands early game, finding FoW early game, shuffling garbage away late game. It will find your better cards in the most efficient way. You can cut the worst cards. I assume you know what the worst 3 cards in your deck are if you have been playing your deck for such a long time.

Should Enchantress run Tarmogoyf because all top8 decks that run green run Tarmogoyf ? Should TES run Force of Will because all top8 decks that run blue run Force of Will ?

No, because it would be stupid.

Each archetype is specific and every card needs to be re-evaluated in its context. Always. There are some very easy calls, but no card is an auto-include.

It just happens that Brainstorm in MUC is one of these examples. As Kadaj correctly explained in the opening posts, there are two kinds of MUC lists; one of them can take advantage of Brainstorm, the other can't. But there is no better list because both have their respective advantages and actual merits, and it would be quite stupid to try to forcefully include Brainstorm in the one who doesn't want it.


Against Goblins my game 1 is OK due to Moat. The manabase is solid because I play only 4 nonbasics. If Goblins were a contender, you could easily add 4 Plague to the sideboard.

I'm sorry but this must be a joke. You're running one Moat with no way to tutor for it except Flash of Insight. You're running only four white mana sources, only one of them is a basic Plains, and you're expecting to be able to have WW open against Goblins ?

I'm not even mentining the fact that getting to four mana, no matter what color they are, against Goblins is actually already the main problem. Simply because they're that fast. Add in land disruption, and seriously, unless you're playing against a really bad player with a really bad list, your Goblin matchup is abysmal. It's crystal clear.



My landstill matchup is favorable. The biggest reason for this is that I have a draw engine, while they have Ideas Unbounds.

Landstill has no draw engine ? Are you forgetting FoF ?


Is MUC good? Not in my opinion, which is why I made these splashes. Your claims of my list being bad are unfounded because you did not test it. You also clearly did not even read the whole decklist before posting. I hope you will read my post and list carefully before replying again. You disappoint me.

As ebitten implied, the problem is the obvious inadequation between your general statements and the list you've posted.

Just looking at your list is enough to know you have no game against Goblins. Once again, your only hope's a freakin' 4cc spell that requires a double WW splash. And removal whose efficiency relies on the number of splash colors you're having on the board. Seriously.

Also, claiming that you have a good game against Landstill with the sole justification that "the biggest reason is that they have no draw engine" is another preposterous / ridiculous statement in every possibly imaginable way.


Brainstorm doesn't relevantly improve your draws? Of course it does, it is the reason to play the card. I am sure most people that play Brainstorm will agree with me here.

Aluren, Solidarity, TES, UGw Threshold. Those are the built decks I have that run Brainstorm and that I frequently play. Brainstorm is a central piece in the strategy of each of them, and I still don't agree with you. The permanent-based MUC Kadaj posted is consistent enough as it is. Adding Brainstorm would not be a smart move because the deck simply wouldn't appreciate it. The power of this list is that the answers are quite generic. You don't run 1-of silver bullets that you would NEED to find in some very specific scenarios. No, you run 3ofs and 4ofs of very versatile answers (Propaganda, B2B, Shackles each hinder many many decks) that will all fit your needs in most cases (barring storm combo, which is the deck's main weakness). Propaganda ? Good against Thresh, Goblins, Landstill, Ichorid, other EtW tokens, any aggro & randomness in general. B2B ? Good against Thresh, Loam, Landstill and randomness in general, useful against Gob (they do run at least 8-10 non-basic). Shackles ? Good against Thresh, Goblins, any aggro & randomness in general. Keg ? Same thing + any kind of EtW/Zombie tokens.


Vedalken Shackles is weak in my opinion (otherwise I would play it), I prefer Moat. I will gladly take one possible dead card (Moat) when my opponents lands don't untap anymore, or tap a nonbasic to cast it. I will win anyway if my opponent has tapped his nonbasic lands and B2B hits.

I'm not sure if there's supposed to be a link between the two parts of this paragraph.

[Maëlig]

If you need proof, please check all top8 decks that run blue and don't run Chalice of the Void. I probably can't come up with better "proof". You can cut one land, then cut 3 other cards. Brainstorm will obviously improve the consistency of any blue non-Chalice deck, finding lands early game, finding FoW early game, shuffling garbage away late game. It will find your better cards in the most efficient way. You can cut the worst cards. I assume you know what the worst 3 cards in your deck are if you have been playing your deck for such a long time.
If Stifle is the only notable reason not to play Fetchlands, then you should definately play them. You can often play around Stifle also. Brainstorm doesn't relevantly improve your draws? Of course it does, it is the reason to play the card. I am sure most people that play Brainstorm will agree with me here.
I fully agree with Eldariel on this one (and on most things he said). I'll add that stifle is not the only problem. A resolved blood moon makes 11 of your lands produce uncolored mana. Plus the obvious dyssinergy with B2B that has already been mentionned. That's a little too much just to run a vanilla-cantrip, if you ask me.


Again, have you tested it? My landstill matchup is favorable. The biggest reason for this is that I have a draw engine, while they have Ideas Unbounds.
WTF? You realize most landstills run 4 standstill in addition to 2 to 4 FoF, right?

Your list is not bad by any means, and it does have some interesting interractions, but it seems very much like a sub-optimal landstill to me.

[Kadaj]

Just because everyone says it's true does not make it true. Just because everyone plays Brainstorm doesn't mean you absolutely should. For example, you claim I should know the three worst cards in my deck. I built my deck precisely so that I wouldn't have three worst cards. My build is so redundant that there's very little classification necessary. And, having played it so much, I can assure you there are no changes I want to make to my list at this date.

Next, I don't need to test your list to know that your gameplan is awful. A 4cc enchantment that relies on a double splash is your buffer against Goblins? You've got to be kidding me. I've tested enough against Goblins to know that you will never get that to work. Next, your Landstill matchup is not favorable. They have no draw engine? Right, so the Standstill that prevented you from playing spells for at least a turn if you want to turn it into Ideas Unbound, as you put it, clearly doesn't count. Or the FoF that they followed up with obviously doesn't count as a draw engine.

I advise you go read the New Member FAQ at The Mana Drain. It clearly explains why you do not have to test every idea to know whether or not it's good or bad.

If you think MUC's gameplan is so bad, why has it procured enough Top 8s to enter the DTB forum on multiple occasions? Clearly, seeing as you claim that Brainstorm's numerous Top 8 apperances are utter proof, that should be proof that you're wrong about MUC being weak.

Anyway, Brainstorm is only as good as the cards it draws you. When it draws you exactly the same cards you had in your hand in the first place what have you achieved? Especially considering all of the weaknesses of Fetchlands, much as you would like to pretend they don't exist, the fact that my list already has redundancy and consistency in the extreme means that making concessions to fit Brainstorm in is a foolish exercise. Besides, according to your own argument, you haven't tested my list, so how would you know whether or not it needs Brainstorm?

[Illissius]

To be honest, I don't entirely agree with either of you guys. On the one hand, the major reason to play MUC over any other control deck is Back to Basics (along with your own manabase stability), and Cunning Wish -> Enlightened Tutor -> Back to Basics is not exactly the same thing. That being said, I think a U/w(/b?) build splashing for Swords and Decree while playing a manabase of (almost) entirely fetchlands and basics plus the normal amount of Back to Basics is a perfectly interesting possibility.

On the other hand, I think the onus really should be on any player not playing Brainstorm to show why that is a good idea. Arguing that Brainstorm doesn't belong in the deck because the deck doesn't have shuffle effects (while correct for a deck which can't reasonably have shuffle effects) is stupid here, because Brainstorm and fetchlands are a package. If you say that the life loss, Stifle, and Moon vulnerability of fetchlands outweigh the advantages of Brainstorm, then you at least have a valid argument, but that is a tough sell. (The other argument you could use would be with a fast aggro deck that doesn't want to waste tempo by playing draw spells, but that doesn't apply here). And there is no viable deck so redundant that it wouldn't want Brainstorm. If Brainstorm were red, Burn would play it. MUC has a lot of variance in how good its cards are in a given situation, against a given deck. When aggro is beating you down, you want board control and not counterspells; against combo you want disruption and threats, not board control; in the late game you want Fact or Fiction and not Ancestral Vision; against some decks, you want Back to Basics, against others, you really don't; and so on. Brainstorm isn't a simple cantrip. Once you recognize that cards aren't either "dead", where you might as well not have even drawn them and they're like -1 card advantage for you, or "not dead" where they're equally useful, but that all cards move on a continuous scale of usefulness according to the card and the situation, you must recognize that Brainstorm gains you card advantage.


For example, you claim I should know the three worst cards in my deck. I built my deck precisely so that I wouldn't have three worst cards.

Here, you touch on a very interesting argument in Magic theory. The argument goes that there is always a worst card. Against any given expected metagame, if you total up the usefulness of each card against each matchup taking into account how often you expect to play against it, you will end up with a card whose total usefulness is less than the others. This is the exact argument people use to justify the fact the 60 cards in a deck is always right, and anything more than 60 is always wrong: your deck has a worst card in it, and if you cut it, you will be more likely to draw the better cards, and your deck will be better. In recent times there has been some recognition that, while this may technically be correct, it is not always definitive, because humans aren't supercomputers with perfect knowledge. While your deck may technically always have a card in it which is the worst, it is not always (even usually, maybe ever) possible to know for sure which one it is. And in this case, you may be better off going with 61 or even 62 cards and accepting that your deck will be marginally worse than it theoretically could be, than taking the risk of making your deck significantly worse if you end up cutting the wrong card. Here, though, the question isn't cutting the deck down to 56 cards; it's cutting the deck to 56 cards and adding four Brainstorms, a card which has significant positive value and will very, very likely be overall "better" than whatever cards you decide are the worst, even if you're wrong and they're only the second, third, or fourth worst.

Since all of this is centered around things which can't be exactly quantified (though very much of Magic is like that) -- the "usefulness" of a card, the card advantage Brainstorm gains, the liability of having fetchlands, and so on -- it's possible that you are actually right about whether Brainstorm belongs in the deck. But given the above, I am rather sceptical, and I think anyone else has a perfect right to also be sceptical. (Beyond a point, though, if neither side is capable of convincing the other or moving the argument forward in any way, continuing it is sort of worthless.)

[Melwis]

Here, you touch on a very interesting argument in Magic theory. The argument goes that there is always a worst card. Against any given expected metagame, if you total up the usefulness of each card against each matchup taking into account how often you expect to play against it, you will end up with a card whose total usefulness is less than the others. This is the exact argument people use to justify the fact the 60 cards in a deck is always right, and anything more than 60 is always wrong: your deck has a worst card in it, and if you cut it, you will be more likely to draw the better cards, and your deck will be better. In recent times there has been some recognition that, while this may technically be correct, it is not always definitive, because humans aren't supercomputers with perfect knowledge. While your deck may technically always have a card in it which is the worst, it is not always (even usually, maybe ever) possible to know for sure which one it is. And in this case, you may be better off going with 61 or even 62 cards and accepting that your deck will be marginally worse than it theoretically could be, than taking the risk of making your deck significantly worse if you end up cutting the wrong card. Here, though, the question isn't cutting the deck down to 56 cards; it's cutting the deck to 56 cards and adding four Brainstorms, a card which has significant positive value and will very, very likely be overall "better" than whatever cards you decide are the worst, even if you're wrong and they're only the second, third, or fourth worst.

Since all of this is centered around things which can't be exactly quantified (though very much of Magic is like that) -- the "usefulness" of a card, the card advantage Brainstorm gains, the liability of having fetchlands, and so on -- it's possible that you are actually right about whether Brainstorm belongs in the deck. But given the above, I am rather sceptical, and I think anyone else has a perfect right to also be sceptical. (Beyond a point, though, if neither side is capable of convincing the other or moving the argument forward in any way, continuing it is sort of worthless.)

That was very interesting to read :)

Ayways, this is my opinion on Brainstorm:

If you look at Brainstorm itself and what it would do in Kadajs list I agree it isn't at all the card it could be simply because the deck lacks shuffle effects. But you need to look at what the card you cut Brainstorm for does aswell. This would probably end up being Ancestral Vision. Now, Proz0r is correct (if you ask me) when he says that this card is absolutely nuts when you have it in your starting hand. But once you've hit lategame (which is MUC's goal isn't it?) Vision has suddenly turned into complete crapness except being FoW food.

And going back to Brainstorm. I said that having Visions in the starting hand was nuts but having Brainstorm is too since it will help you get a much needed FoW or Foil should your opponent play something devastating the first turn.

If I where to make some changes on Kadajs list (not saying they are the correct ones) it would proably be something like:

- 4 Ancestral Vision (Only good in the starting hand imo)

-1 Foil (3 seems like overkill to me. If you want more first turn answers I would rely on Force Spike or Spell Snare)

+ 3 Brainstorm (Le'ts you know what you will be drawing the next few turns, good versus discard and helps you get a crucial FoW/Foil in the starting hand should you need one).

+ 2 Spell Snare/Force Spike

I haven't tested Foil at all so this may be the wrong thing to do but just looking at the card makes me think 3 is simply to much. And since the cards I replace it with will still make you have first turn answers I don't think it can all be that bad. But these are just my opinions and since I understand Kadaj has tested MUC alot more than I have so his choices might be the correct ones.

[Mirrislegend]

Given the lists and discussion, I'm personally favoring the permanent based one. However, Spell Snare basically reads: "Counter every dominant card in the format" and thus begs for a slot. Was it tested Kadaj?

[Brehn]

Yes, a very simple reason. What would you cut for it? Foil serves a specific role, once again, that Spell Snare cannot fill. Namely, an early game pitch-counter that has the flexibility to be utilized in the late game as well. Yes, Spell Snare is good against a lot, but Foil is more or less good against everything and hits a much wider range of targets.

If I had unlimited space obviously I'd include Spell Snare, but seeing as I don't, I can't.


Also, I laughed at this one:

"Counter every dominant card in the format"
Syff.

[Kadaj]

Putting the burden of proof, as it were, on me is perfectly justified in this case, considering Brainstorm is almost ubiquitous in this format where it can fit. However, I'm arguing two things. One, adding Brainstorm doesn't improve the consistency of my build, and the disadvantages of having to add Fetchlands to enable one card that isn't that strong in my build in the first place isn't worth it. While it is very true that in a given situation there will always be a worst card (B2B against Mono-Red Burn, or Propaganda against something that plays absolutely no creatures, for example), I do believe that you can achieve a degree of redudancy against a field, as opposed to a specific deck, where there isn't one card that is actually worse than the others.

Anyway, one of the major problems in this argument is that I don't rate Brainstorm nearly as high as you do. I do not believe burn would play Brainstorm if it were Red. Read The Philosophy of Fire by Mike Flores as to my reasoning there. Yes, Brainstorm is very powerful in decks that have many variable effects that have to be juggled (something like Full English Breakfast, for example), or combo decks like Bomberman that are looking for a specific set of cards, or a deck like Threshold that needs a steady stream of threats and doesn't have the manabase to play stuff like FoF with any consistency. However, Brainstorm is not as strong in a deck like Landstill, for example, where many of its cards do the same thing. Is it poor? Of course not! But it's not so ridiculously broken that it's untouchable. That's basically my argument. Brainstorm is not bad in MUC, quite the opposite as Doks build demonstrates, but it isn't amazing either. You should play the best options available, not just options that are decent.

Another thing that bothers me about how people classify Brainstorm is that they try to claim it's "card advantage". No, it's not card advantage. Argue hyperbole, metaphor, whathaveyou, but Brainstorm does not increase the size of your hand. Period. It certainly does gain card quality, and it does it better than anything else for the price of U, but it doesn't gain card advantage. That's why Ancestral Recall is arguably the most broken card ever printed and Brainstorm is 'just' an amazing cantrip. I would infinitely rather have Ancestral Vision than Brainstorm because I place much higher stock in card advantage than card quality. I want to completely barrel over my opponents by constantly having more cards in hand than they do and having a constant stream of threat after threat.

Now, here's where experience comes in. I have tested my current build except with Brainstorm directly replacing Ancestral Vision and fetchlands included as well. And I hated it. This was well before I wrote this primer, or before I even started championing Brainstormless-MUC, so it wasn't like I had inherent bias to think about that point. Why did I hate it? Because it was infinitely weaker in the mid-game. It was much harder to keep up with decks like Goblins because my hand size was constantly around 2 or 3 by the time they were dropping Ringleaders and reloading because I didn't have enough Counterspells to keep their threats off the board. I decided I needed more mid-game muscle, and I decided I would try something radical: Replace Brainstorm with AV. Low and behold, literally every matchup improved with the exception of combo, which got noticeably worse.

Why? Because, once again, I could now compete with decks like Goblins, Chalice Aggro, and Threshold in the mid-game. Instead of having 2 cards in hand I'd have 5 much more often, and chaining AV into FoF and vice-versa ensured that I almost never ran out of cards. Brainstorm just can't replicate that effect. It simply doesn't draw cards, and drawing cards was the effect I needed. Brainstorm provided consistency in and of that I rarely had dead cards in my hand, but more often than not that was because I had almost no cards in my hand at all. Replacing them with Ancestral Vision provided a different kind of consistency. Namely that I almost always had 4+ cards in hand.

So obviously, I decided that AV was integral to my build's success. But I still wasn't entirely comfortable with just cutting Brainstorm, for many of the same reasons we're having this argument right now. I was so convinced that I would have less dead-draws and whatnot that I decided I'd try and fit Brainstorm back in by cutting down to this:

X16 Island
X4 Flooded Strand
X4 Polluted Delta
X4 Brainstorm
X4 Fact or Fiction
X4 Ancestral Vision
X4 Force of Will
X4 Counterspell
X2 Mana Leak (I hadn't tested Foil yet, these would be Foils now if I did it again)
X3 Propaganda
X3 Powder Keg
X3 Back To Basics
X2 Vedalken Shackles
X1 Morphling
X1 Meloku (I hadn't yet come to the conclusion that Meloku was unnecessary)
X1 Rainbow Efreet

Yet, low and behold, the matchup against Goblins and Threshold were both worse now that I put Brainstorm back in. Fetchlands lost me multiple games against Threshold when they would be stifled, or I had to play around stifle which cost me valuable tempo, and there were 3 games out of 10 that I actually have recorded where I lost to Goblins because I lost 3 life through fetchlands. Obviously it's hard to say what would've happened otherwise because Fetchlands also shuffle the deck, and I did get the Brainstorm interaction twice in one of those games, so it's not totally conclusive. However, it pissed me off enough to at least put it in the back of my mind.

Then, something else kept happening that was basically the nail in Brainstorm's proverbial coffin. I realized how much Brainstorm sucks when you don't have a fetchland. Seriously, every time I drew a Brainstorm without a fetchland I wanted to punch something. No the effect isn't that bad in a vacuum, but in context it was like having a blank card that required me to pay U just to get rid of the damn thing.

At this point I decided I'd figure out if Brainstorm was really worth it in the matchups I thought it would help. So I tested 20 games against Goblins, preboard. 10 without Brainstorm and 10 with, and I recorded the number of Powder Kegs, Propagandas, and B2Bs I drew over the course of each game, in addition to the number of games I endured either mana screw or mana flood.

With Brainstorm the numbers were as follows:
13 Powder Kegs
12 Propaganda
6 B2Bs
1 game with mana flood, 0 games with mana screw.

Without Brainstorm the numbers were:
11 Powder Keg
14 Propaganda
8 B2Bs
2 games with mana flood, 0 games with mana screw.

So obviously the signs here aren't blatantly conclusive. I did find more Propagandas without Brainstorm than I did with it, but I also found more B2Bs and less Powder Kegs. Keg is important early against Goblins because it clears away Aether Vial, and too many B2Bs is irritating because there are definitely situations that they don't help and they are useless in multiples. Yet, there was something else I thought was fairly important. With Brainstorm I went 3-7, without it I went 5-5. Yes, the sample size is small, but I came to some conclusions based on these testings numbers. First, Brainstorm did not immensely improve the consistency of my build, and second, I actually did better against a matchup I was specifically targeting without it than I did with it.

I did this testing a long time ago, and I didn't share the specific numbers because I didn't think it was particularly necessary. It is the intensity of this argument that persuaded me otherwise. I'd be glad to engage in testing with anyone interested if you doubt the numbers I've presented here, and I urge you to test it yourselves. Primarily because testing really is the only way to come to conclusive evidence. Conjecture can only go so far.

[Illissius]

I must say that was a hell of a lot more convincing than what you'd posted before, so I'm glad that you did. There's still the possibility of "well, maybe if you cut these cards instead..."* and so on, but then it just comes down to theory versus practice again and practice trumping, and there not being a way to tell without testing it.

As for the theoretical case of Brainstorm in Burn, I don't want to get into a long discussion about that here, but my thinking was that Brainstorm turns land into burn (or burn into land, should the need arise), and bad burn into better burn. A deck with 43 Lightning Bolts and 17 lands might not want Brainstorms, but actual Burn decks have Bolts in them as well as Incinerates and Magma Jets, and as well as Fireblasts and Prices of Progress, and also the last 2-4 cards which no one can ever seem to agree on.

EDIT - And I agree with you about Brainstorm versus Ancestral Vision. While Brainstorm may gain card advantage (and let's not get bogged down in the semantics of "card advantage" versus "card quality" when we clearly mean the same thing by either in this case), it's also true that Ancestral Vision gains a lot more card advantage. (Looking at it my way, (on average) Brainstorm may gain an effective +0.5 while Vision gains +2; your way, two cards where previously there were no cards is quite the gain in card quality.)

* for the record, relative to the most recent list, my guess would be an Island, a Fact, and 2/3 of a Foil, a Keg, and a B2B

[Richard]

Thanks for the wonderful primer, Kadaj!

One question:
You've tested Curse of Chains in a (completely?) different build.
Do you already have the results?

Not that I think they belong in MUC, I'm just curious.

[Kadaj]

I'd be glad to actually go test my list again with the cuts you've advised. In fact, I fully plan on doing so at some point in the near future. I'll record the same numbers I posted and I'll do it across a few matchups instead of just Goblins. Those are results I look forward to seeing.

At any rate, the Brainstorm debate is hardly something that's ever going to be 'solved' in the sense of a mathematical equation. The only thing I can think of that would really push the debate in either direction would be a string of Top 8 results pointing one way or the other (and I fully hope I'll actually be traveling to some tournaments over the summer, so we'll see how that goes).

Beyond that I think debate should be focused on two things, regarding permanent oriented MUC:

1. The Foil slot.
2. The sideboard

The Foil slot because it's historically been the one that gets shuffled around a lot, and I've probably tried everything imaginable there. One thing I want to really experiment with is whether or not that slot should even be a counterspell. Do we really need 10+? Or does the loss of countering power hurt the control matchup too much?

And the sideboard because, while sideboards are obviously customizable to a specific metagame, I do think we can come to some conclusions as to what a good SB for the general metagame would be.

EDIT:
The Curse of Chains build really didn't work out because the more I tested it the more I realized I should just be playing Uwb control. It was decent, but it didn't really fit the deck's gameplan and it didn't really improve any matchups.

[Illissius]

I'll just note that I don't have a great deal of personal experience with MUC, so I'm a lot less sure about those specific cuts than about Brainstorm theory in general (which is why I only mentioned it as a footnote). If you'll test it nonetheless, then that's great, and I look forward to seeing the results. The reasoning was that Brainstorm will draw you more Islands when you need them, that it also gains card quality/advantage (if not as much, but there's four of them) so one Fact is an appropriate cut (and, again, it'll also draw more Ancestrals and Facts), and then the last two were just my best uneducated guess at what the two worst cards in the deck might be.

As far as the Foil slot goes, given that we have two problems -- "what do we cut for Brainstorm?", and "what do we put in the Foil slot?" -- I'm not sure what the right name for this is (maybe "cutting the Gordian knot?"), but "putting Brainstorm in the Foil slot" becomes hard to ignore. In that case, -3 Foil, -7-9 Island, +4 Brainstorm, +6-8 fetchlands. (Given that fetchlands weaken Foil somewhat, a Brainstorm build might want to have something else besides Foil in that slot regardless.)

[Kadaj]

The issue then becomes what effect we want out of that slot. Can we afford to go down to 8 Counterspells to fit in Brainstorm? Does adding a further card-quality mechanism make up for the loss in control density? I don't know the answer to those questions, although I do intend to find out. Still, my gut feeling is that if we're going to fit Brainstorm in, cutting the additional counterspell is not how to do it. I think having 10+ counters give MUC an advantage over other control that is both extremely important and very hard to replicate. Plus it allows you to fight aggro-control more effectively, and Foil in particular is solid against both Combo and Aggro.

[Illissius]

MUC with only 8 counterspells definitely feels odd, given the stereotype of it as "the deck full of counterspells", and that blue is widely seen as the color worst at board control (maybe after green). The confluence of Back to Basics, the best card drawing, and a nonzero amount of counterspells may still be a good justification, however.

[Angantyr]

I'm testing the deck for a while. I tried Brainstorm + Fetchlands to enable Engineered Explosives. In the games I always wanted Powder Keg instead of EE, but I dont know what to replace Brainstorm with. I dont like Ancestral Vision, but I don't see a good alternative to play instead. Accumulated Knowledge was my favourite carddraw, especialy combined with Fact or Fiction. But the two mana in its casting cost appear to be too much. Ancestral Vision is no real carddraw, ist a refiller and you have to wait too long for your cards.
I see you flaming in half of the thread and I hope there will be some hepful answers instead.

[Kadaj]

You're pretty much right on all counts. Accumulated Knowledge isn't quite good enough, and there isn't a good alternative to Ancestral Vision in that slot if you're looking for card draw. There isn't a whole lot of flexibility there, considering the other options like Think Twice, Accumulated Knowledge, etc, are all far weaker than we can afford to play. If you don't like Ancestral Vision that much, I advise you look into Doks build, which doesn't play it and doesn't want it.

[Illissius]

What about boarding Ophidians (or even Riptide Pilferer) against control and such? They're going to board out removal.
Primary obstacles: Mishra's Factory, Tarmogoyf

EDIT - Another interesting-seeming card is Dream Tides.

[Maëlig]

What about boarding Ophidians (or even Riptide Pilferer) against control and such? They're going to board out removal.
Primary obstacles: Mishra's Factory, Tarmogoyf
I think augury adept would be better fit for that role, as it's also decent against storm combo. Not sure if it's worth running in the sb tough, control is not a MU we are very concerned about...

[ParkerLewis]

EDIT - Another interesting-seeming card is Dream Tides.

It looks like an overcosted and less effective Propaganda. What would be the point of this card (i might be missing something here) ?

[raharu]

I'm testing the deck for a while. I tried Brainstorm + Fetchlands to enable Engineered Explosives. In the games I always wanted Powder Keg instead of EE, but I dont know what to replace Brainstorm with. I dont like Ancestral Vision, but I don't see a good alternative to play instead. Accumulated Knowledge was my favourite carddraw, especialy combined with Fact or Fiction. But the two mana in its casting cost appear to be too much. Ancestral Vision is no real carddraw, ist a refiller and you have to wait too long for your cards.
I see you flaming in half of the thread and I hope there will be some hepful answers instead.
Impulse*? *(to replace Brainstorm)

[KillemallCFH]

It looks like an overcosted and less effective Propaganda. What would be the point of this card (i might be missing something here) ?Dream Tides stops Goyf (and Goose) completely, whereas Propoganda only slows them down. It is in interesting option, though I'm not sure there is any room for it in MUC. I will, however, be testing it in Blue Stax.

[Willoe]

It's probably a turn too slow. I feel that Propaganda is rather slow, but that's it, it's litteral the best we can get.

Can people who do not play Brainstorm sideboard or even maindeck chalices? Or is slow speed what holds people back? It would be interesting, because a lot of annoying cards at 1cc are played.

Goose
Lackey
Thoughtseize
Dark Ritual
Pithing Needle

Can't think of any other atm. But has people tested it at all?

Just tested the deck on MWS, and really, it's very, very good. I love how people think you are lucky when your opening hand contains a FoW. But that's people... :smile:

What is the average cost of this deck? I'm a budget player at heart, so if I can get the various parts for <100 dollars, I'd be pleased.

[Kadaj]

The version without fetchlands can be bought for under 200$ if you know what you're doing (that's about as much as it cost me), but the version with fetches will run more than that. Dream Tides is interesting, and it certainly helps post-board against Thresh, so it could be worth looking into.

[raharu]

The version without fetchlands can be bought for under 200$ if you know what you're doing (that's about as much as it cost me), but the version with fetches will run more than that. Dream Tides is interesting, and it certainly helps post-board against Thresh, so it could be worth looking into.
Is threshold really that hard of a MU?

[Kadaj]

No, quite the opposite, but it never hurts to have additional help against the best deck in the format. If you want to win a tournament you will almost undoubtedly face Threshold, and I wouldn't blame anyone for wanting additional insurance, a firewall if you will, that you won't lose that matchup to a small string of badluck, for example. Yes, you should probably beat Threshold most of the time, but you'll still lose often enough to sit up and take notice. Hence, me considering Dream Tides.

[raharu]

Yeah, that's what I thought it was. You had me confused for a second, as I was fairly sure Threshold was a positive MU for MUC.

[Illissius]

Besides the fact that it stops green creatures, you can only play four copies of Propaganda. That said, it's rather worse against nongreen creatures than Propaganda: costs :u: more, and only takes effect after they've already attacked once.

As for Ophidian, I was still in the mindset of the Tomb/City-packing Accelerated Blue build I'm tinkering with; obviously Augury Adept is better here. But as nearly every control deck just happens to pack either Factory or Tarmogoyf, it's probably not a good idea. Maybe if there were some sort of similar creature which either had evasion or didn't need to attack...

[MattH]

Maybe if there were some sort of similar creature which either had evasion or didn't need to attack...
Theiving Magpie, then?...Jushi Apprentice?

[Illissius]

Yeah, four mana is probably too much (there's also Lu Xun, Scholar General). Jushi Apprentice is a possibility.

[Kadaj]

I screwed around with a Jushi Apprentice based build at some point way back in time, and it wasn't entirely horrible. It was just weird as hell to play and wasn't particularly resilient if Jushi didn't survive, which, considering it's not exactly Troll Ascetic, was pretty common. Still, it was an interesting exercise to see that even if you had to invest X cards just to keep the little bastard alive you generally X+Y (where Y is greater than 1) cards in return after you established Jushi for any length of time.

Then again, I prefer Jace Beleren against Control nowadays, considering Jace is basically everything Jushi wanted to be except about 5 times better.

[team17]

Why isn't Forbid mentioned, it is a very good card lategame and not that bad early game. With all the card advantage and useless Island and othercards lategame it can counter many times. I run it only 1 time because that's the correct number i think. Let me know how you think about that card.
I'm also questioning if there isn't a good replacement for Powder Keg just because I don't like that card much. Here is MUC how I play it:

// Lands
24 [PT] Island (1)

// Creatures
1 [VI] Rainbow Efreet
1 [US] Morphling

// Spells
1 [EX] Forbid
4 [B] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
3 [US] Back to Basics
4 [TE] Propaganda
4 [IN] Fact or Fiction
4 [TSP] Ancestral Vision
4 [UD] Powder Keg
3 [PY] Foil

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 1 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 4 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle

I play 3 foils mainboard because combo is played very often in my metagame. 2 kills + 3 shackles MD are enough. I explained the Forbid. The other cards are pretty obvious, just ask when you need an explanation.

I don't see Goblins very much here so I don't play anti-red cards, this is my sideboard but I still have 1 slot left.
Echoing Truth against Bridge and EtW
Tormod's Crypt against every GY dependant deck
B2B against very much decks
Shackles against aggro and decks like dragonstompy etc.
Pithing Needle just to fill some slots.

[i-never-smile]

Hey, it's my first post here, but I'm not a man for introductions so I'm just going to dive in.

I've been getting into Legacy lately because Standard went to crap and Extended season ended, so I went with my favorite deck archetype across all formats: Mono blue control. I've been lurking these forums and reading up all of this thread and the previous one, and I think I have a couple of things to bring to the table:

-I like Ophidian/Augury Adept in mono blue control, but I agree that it's hard to rely on this kind of card advantage when the format is full of creatures and creature removal. But there is also Looter il-kor, which comes down for 1 cheaper than Ophie and has shadow. It doesn't direcetly give card advantage, but it's cheaper so it comes online faster, and when I play this deck I always feel like I want to throw some cards away in order to dig anyways. This also would potentially warrant running Squee and some Forbids for rediculous card advantage.

-I'm still reworking my build, so I don't have a full list to post for critiquing but I've been thinking of the following package:

3 Tolaria West
1 Tabernacle at Pendrel Vale

I know that one of the problems with Tolaria West is the weakness to back to basics, our biggest trump card. However, I wonder if it's worth it to support the Tabernacle. I've been running a 1-of Tabernacle as an extra disruption card, and anytime I face creatures, it's free and disruptive. It's also really good with Shackles when you just want to throw away a creature you stole in order to jack another (even if it costs a turn to do it). Do you guys feel like there's some merit to Tolaria West? It can also find Pact of Negation, and at worst it's just a bad island. Heck, after dropping B2B, I could always just Meloku it back to my hand and then transmute it away.

Lastly: I'm relatively new to Legacy, but Thresh isn't new at all to me because it's the same old kind of Baseruption/Level Blue I faced in Extended all the time. I just don't see how they can win matches against a Blue deck like this, so why are you guys so concerned with dealing with thresh? I'm quite positive that Powder Keg only takes 1 turn to own all their mongeese and hide all their tops, and Goyf<shackles. They play a lot of cantrips and garbage like Daze, while we just run real permission and steal their crap. That's how I see it, anyways. Am I wrong? Is there something to be concerned with when it comes to Thresh? The only thing I side in against them is 3x Pithing Needle and it feels like I could play that match in my sleep.

[deviant]

Well, when they Thoughtseize you, follow it up with a Counterbalance and then sneak a beater in play, maybe even top (daze is btw often a hard counter as a follow-up for FoW) - you are pretty much left there helpless to watch their masturbatory skirmish.
(Has your Keg ever been stifled btw?)

Now don't get me wrong, ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh is a favorable mu, but don't get too excited - your going to lose to it often enough.
It's not considered the best deck for naught.

[idraleo]

It's not considered the best deck for naught.


ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh had a 30-70 mu from the entire format, how could it be considered the best deck?

[Dxfiler]

Hihi. I've been playing alot of legacy the past 2 months and although I did not use this deck in any of the tourneys I played in recently I tested it thoroughly and was very happy with this version. I'm not going to be playing Legacy for a little while so I figured why not post what I feel is a good version of this deck:



// Lands
18 [PT] Island
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
2 [CHK] Meloku the Clouded Mirror
4 [DS] Spire Golem

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [UD] Powder Keg
4 [B] Counterspell
3 [IN] Fact or Fiction
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [MM] Brainstorm
2 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [US] Back to Basics
3 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 1 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [OV] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [DIS] Spell Snare

The main difference between this list and others is Spire Golem. It is nuts. The main issue with mono blue was speed. It doesn't have a cheap option that can do offense and defense. Spire golem fills that hole. The deck can have issues with things like factory and Golem puts the kibosh on that.

Other than Golem nothing really new here. I found Brainstorm to be superior to Ancestral Visions. 4 Keg ended up being necessary due to the speed of the format. The board is pretty straightforward. I added more-anti red things because dragonstompy and red painter seem to be very popular.

I've been wanting to fit Annul in but haven't done so yet. That would be mainly for survival I'm still debating.

The deck doesn't have many awful matches. It was testing favorably against Thresh/Dstompy/Dreadstill. It has issues with swarm decks, particularly goblins/affinity.

I'm really happy with this version and would recommend trying it for those looking for a slightly different take on the deck.

Thanks.

- Dave Feinstein

[idraleo]

Yes Spire Golem is a powerhouse. A 2\4 flyer that hit the board on turn 4 is what every deck needs. I'm asking to myself why 3shold players still pay 2 to cast a Tarmogoyf when they could drop an Island each turn and did a 4 turn Spire Golem.

[Kadaj]

How did you find Threads? I tried it a while back and found it to be too narrow, so I'm curious as to why you felt it was necessary ahead of stuff like the 4th Fact, which is another thing I'm curious about as to why it was omitted. The other thing that confuses me about your list is Meloku over Morphling. I really can't figure out why you'd want to do that so your reasoning there would be much appreciated.

Also, how is your Landstill matchup? It looks like you might have some trouble because of having some dead cards and lacking that extra push in the ability to draw cards that usually puts Landstill away. Still, I've never really screwed around with Spire Golem in Legacy so I'm not sure how the dynamic would play out.

[idraleo]

Meloku sucks, Spire sucks, they doesn' t win any MU and doesn't improve it too. Threads is dead almost the time because tons of decks plays high CmC creatures to avoid CB effect; Threads is dead against stompy.deck., landstill, rock control, mirror, comboish and still goes on.

Definitively, the only creatures playable in MUC is Morphling, Rainbow, and Vendillion, at least Sower if you want to trick over Shackles.

[team17]

Threads is def. not dead, it was in my previous MUC build and it was a good card. The only problem is that in my meta I see very much combo so it isn't that good for me.

But what do you guys think of Forbid? Why doesn't anyone play that card. It is broken lategame.

[Dxfiler]

Meloku sucks, Spire sucks, they doesn' t win any MU and doesn't improve it too.


Definitively, the only creatures playable in MUC is Morphling, Rainbow, and Vendillion, at least Sower if you want to trick over Shackles.

Not true.

If you take the closeminded view that the only effective finishers in MUC are Morphling/Rainbow and the deck can't be improved, you probably don't ever work on decks. It's not a coincidence that when I went through this thread several people with Morphling builds said were either going to time or just getting blown out of the water before they ever got a chance to do anything.



Threads is dead almost the time because tons of decks plays high CmC creatures to avoid CB effect; Threads is dead against stompy.deck., landstill, rock control, mirror, comboish and still goes on.

Absolutely 110% not true.

Threads is pretty much never dead. The last tournament I went to had 50 people and at least half of the room was packing Tarmogoyf. That's not counting the 5 or so decks with meddling mage and the 2-3 goblin decks. Not coincidentally, half the top 8 had goyf also. There was actually only one deck in the top 8 that threads would not have hit (ichorid). Threads is completely dead against combo/Ichorid, that's about it. In those cases you have an easy card to pitch to Force of Will and then you can just side it out. There's nothing wrong with having a card maindeck that gets sided out alot and anyone who plays alot of tournaments will tell you that.


I mean if you disagree with some card choices then fine, but give some valid reasons why. 'They suck' isn't going to cut it.

- Dave

[Kadaj]

Not true.

If you take the closeminded view that the only effective finishers in MUC are Morphling/Rainbow and the deck can't be improved, you probably don't ever work on decks. It's not a coincidence that when I went through this thread several people with Morphling builds said were either going to time or just getting blown out of the water before they ever got a chance to do anything.

I don't know about this, although to an extent I agree with your other comments. I have never once gone to time with MUC because of my choice of finisher. Meloku also really doesn't help here because going all in with it is usually too risky to get away with and is much more easily removed. Still, I think simply with familiarity with your deck there's no reason you should go to time with MUC unless you're playing against Turbo-Fog or something. I mean seriously, if Randy Buehler can play a deck with nothing but a single Rainbow Efreet and 4 Stalking Stones to kill with and go 6-0 I don't think running Morphling over Meloku is really an excuse for going to time.

Anyway, as far as Threads go it is true they aren't dead a lot of time. But just because something isn't dead doesn't mean it's the correct choice. You say you had trouble with swarm decks, Affinity, Goblins, etc. Threads really doesn't help their due to its lack of speed and the fact that attempting to win with 1 for 1s against the aformentioned decks is like trying to kill a hive of bees with a toothpick. Maybe once in a million you'll get lucky, but the rest of the time reality will set in.

What matchups does Threads really improve that something like say Propaganda wouldn't? I would argue Propaganda is better against Thresh because it makes them choose between cantripping and attacking, and it also affects Mongoose. Propaganda is also better against Landstill because it makes it damn near impossible for them to afford to attack you with manlands, although Propaganda isn't exactly the bees knees there either. Propaganda is also infinitely better against swarm decks than Threads. I mean... I honestly can't think of a situation where I'd want threads over Propaganda in a deck that also plays Vedalken Shackles. It just seems highly sub-optimal. I'm sure it wasn't bad, but I'm also sure it could be better.

[Jason]

I'd like to think that I am a mono-blue control player. I loved Buehler's Draw-Go and frequently we would sit around and randomly play those World Championship decks and I think I am the only one who loved getting Draw-Go. I loved it; if others played it, they would complain about how it only ran one Rainbow Efreet and couldn't be effective with one win condition. I know that is the difference between us who love the fact mono blue can bring it without really looking scary.

The argument of Engineered Explosives (and thus Brainstorm and fetches) versus Powder Keg could be eliminated if you claim you want to run a true MUC with only blue (and artifact) cards. If that argument is not good enough for you, I will explain why Powder Keg is much better for MUC. Powder Keg destroys artifacts whereas Explosives destroys non-land permanents. I have done much testing against random landstill decks and Kegging away Factories is a good thing in game 1. Plus, I recently played in a Legacy tournament and defeated Affinity in 9 total turns. Not a game, but the match. Kegging away their lands games one and two followed by a Shackles or a Propaganda just caused them to scoop. Also (it was already said but I would like to reiterate the point because it is important) fetches open up for the opponent to Stone Rain you for 1. Stifling your land is not good for a deck that needs to be making a land drop every turn nearly every turn for the majority of the game. So if fetches are bad, then Brainstorm isn't very good either. Impulse is much better.

That brings me to one of my decks that I made top 8 with in Minnesota a couple months back:

1 Academy Ruins
23 Snow-Covered Islands

1 Morphling
1 Meloku
1 Teferi

4 Force of Will
4 Force Spike
4 Counterspell
2 Cryptic Command

3 Back to Basics
4 Vedalken Shackles
4 Powder Keg

4 Ancestral Vision
4 Impulse

Sb:
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Teferi
1 Back to Basics
3 Disrupt
2 Spell Snare
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast

Sorry for the Snow-Covered Islands - I was using Owl (don't laugh please) before I had Morphling. The Impulse was huge as it was used to dig for the perfect card whether it be a B2B, Powder Keg, or even a land. Ancestral Vision was great card advantage and even though it is slow, I'm not trying to win in one turn.

End of turn Teferi was a shock to many people playing against me, but it makes Meloku (the best creature in Legacy) and Morphling simply ridiculous. Against landstill Teferi eats Factories and against threshold Teferi eats Mongoose (a huge problem for me because I can't Shackles it and I can only stop it with Kegs).

I played Cryptic Command because the landstill decks were playing around the counterspells to stick a Humility and without that as an out, my day is ruined with Humility in play.

I regretted not having Propagandas when I lost to Ichorid in round two, but my deck did very well. I drew with a MUCish deck that used fetches and brainstorms (but was also trying to play landstill...I was very confused) but I would have beaten him game three if he wouldn't have Needled my Morphling game three (I swung for three on the final turn of time called - I needed five to kill). Like I said, I got stomped by Ichorid in round two. The Disrupts helped me skim a win in game two, but a turn one win on game three ended my day. From there, I went on to beat a countertop Goyf deck (not exactly thresh), stomp Goblins, easily defeat Cephalid Breakfast with the Kiki-Jiki kill (yay for multiple Powder Kegs at zero and two Shackles in play!), and finally beat a white-blue-green threshold deck. I was the seven seed and took on a two-seeded BG Rock deck. That matchup was way too easy. Steal creatures with Shackles and win...thanks green Ophidian. Then I played a tempo threshold deck and the burn getting directed at my face, coupled with a Mongoose that wasn't countered was too much for me. I lost to Dredge to take fourth.

Recently, though, I played again in another tournament. I brought a similar deck but it didn't do as well and I think I know why. Here is the list:

1 Academy Ruins
23 Snow-Covered Islands

1 Morphling
1 Meloku
1 Teferi

4 Force of Will
4 Force Spike
4 Counterspell
2 Cryptic Command

3 Back to Basics
4 Vedalken Shackles
4 Powder Keg

4 Ancestral Vision
4 Fact or Fiction

Sb:
4 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Teferi
1 Back to Basics
3 Propaganda
4 Blue Elemental Blast

I liked the Pithing Needle in the sideboard and the Engineered Explosives were extra token-killers and Mongoose-killers. I will admit it; this deck got stomped by the competition. I was probably in the bottom 20. Part of it was bad luck and I think the main reason I was having bad luck with my draws was because of the card draw selection. The major difference between this and the previous is Fact or Fiction AND Ancestral Vision. I definitely loved Fact or Fiction, but Vision seemed like it was out of place. The main point is I needed to have something that digs quick. Impulse would have been huge. Initially going into the tournament I thought this was going to be an issue but I couldn't fit what I thought would be the best in my deck -
4x Impulse
4x Fact or Fiction
2x Ancestral Vision
So in my case I think it would have been best to run either Impulse and Vision or Impulse and Fact or Fiction.

Also another huge piece is Spell Snare. I played a mirror match in round three that annihilated me with Spell Snare. He won every major counterwar and I could not stick a Teferi or Morphling for the win. I was contemplating after the tournament to cut Force Spike for Spell Snare simply because Force Spike was sitting dead in my hand for many games.


Why isn't Forbid mentioned, it is a very good card lategame and not that bad early game.

To comment on the issue of Forbid - if you are casting Forbid, you are either in desperation mode and have nothing better to counter with (and thus are not reaping the benefits of buyback) or you are winning. If you already have the card advantage without Forbid then you obviously don't need it to win.

Sorry for the long post; I just wanted to get my comments in. I love the idea of Foil in the deck - I will have to try fitting it in. I am going to play with my sideboard some more and see what Jace and Declaration of Naught can do for me. I like Disrupts too; I shouldn't have cut them.

[kabal]

Dominus of Will (http://mtgsalvation.com/eventide-spoiler.html#2688) UUUUU
Creature - Spirit Avatar Rare
Flying
At the beginning of your upkeep, untap and gain control of target permanent until end of turn.
It gains haste until end of turn.
4/4

Potential?

[Brehn]

Don't think so. He doesn't protect himself, he doesn't affect the board state, he's a bad blocker. He's the fastest clock MUC could ever get, but MUC doesn't really care about speed.

[Doks]

Regarding Meloku as a Finisher:

He has no Shroud and requires you to return land - that's it.
I can't imagine more disadvantages although I have to admit that no Shroud is quite a big one.
But Meloku does what the other Finishers can't do: influence the board!
Meloku stalls the game at low life and buys you the time to get out of the current position.
I recently killed a Dreadnought with it and it singlehandly won me some games against all my Thresh-opponents who board out Removal (since it is useless against Morphling) - and he won me games that would have gone to time otherwise by swinging for 10+ or so in the last extra turn lol.

[Eldariel]

'Pling is also a solid blocker. Just sayin'. While not the biggest ever, it tends to stall even 6/7 Goyfs and eats 4/5s for breakfast. All that while putting opponent on a 4-turn clock.

[Doks]

But Morphling can only block 1 creature at a time.
Sure, I am not saying Meloku is best, but someone playing MUC for a long time has probably made the experience that you might still lose a game to an opponent who swarms you, especially multiple Nimble Mongoose are deadly in most cases (and you still need 4 Mana to pump up Morphling without getting rid of 6/7 Goyf).
Meloku usually buys enough time to find the needed out (read: Shackles / EE / Bounce / whatever).
Once again, I'd never run Morphling over Meloku but Meloku is still a solid finisher which abilities fit some situations that others don't.

[Jason]

While we are on the subject of Meloku, I would like to give my experience from the latest tournament I played in. It was late in the game and I was at very little life (he got me down to 6 with his Scathe Zombiesesque attacks with Trinket Mage - I couldn't find a Shackles to steal it before then :frown: ) and I stuck a Meloku and brought him down to 8 in a couple turns and going to kill him on my next turn by making 2 more fliers. We both had nothing relevant in our hands thanks to the counterwar over Meloku. He Sensei's Topped on his turn, flipped it, and found Sower of Temptation 3 down. He cast it, stole my Meloku and he killed me on his next turn. Shroud is huge, and that could be an argument for Morphling over Meloku...but then again, I still think Meloku is the best creature in the format because it generates a larger swing in board position than Morphling.

And I don't like Rainbow Efreet. It is too mana intensive for it to be useful, but that is my opinion.

[team17]

Rainbow Efreet is too expensive, yes. But he dodges everything, and that's what make him so good in MUC. And with his 3 power, you have to attack 5-6 times most of the time.
Morphling is ofcourse the best creature to play, but there aren't any good other creatures to play except morphling and efreet. Meloku is a possibility but i don't like him.

[Kadaj]

Rainbow Efreet is run entirely because it is the only finisher that survives Pernicious Deed. Period. Yes, it's incredibly inefficient and lacking in spectacularity compared to Meloku and Morphling, but it can be surprisingly important against 4c Landstill and the like. In fact, I daresay that is the sole reason to run Rainbow Efreet. If you don't expect a lot of Deeds and other related mass removal, don't run Efreet. Run a Meloku, or whatever suits your fancy.

[overseer1234]

Hi' I'm playing legacy for a while but I've mostly been playing agro decks like Sui-Black, Dragon Stompy, 5/3,...; and wanted something that didn't cause me to throw up my hand on the field and just bash my opponent brainless...

Would this list be a good starting point?

2x Powder Keg
3x Vedalken Shackles
2x Morphling
1x Rainbow Efreet
4x Back to Basics
4x Counterspell
4x Cryptic Command
4x Fact or Fiction
4x Force of Will
4x Spell Snare
24x Island
4x Ancestral Vision

Sideboard
2x Powder Keg
4x Tormod’s Cryp
4x Propaganda
4x Stifle

Any pointers would be welcome :)

Greetzzzz
Robin.

[team17]

It's not bad but i should cut the Cryptic Commands for Propaganda's. 4 Propaganda's are often very good, but it depends a bit on your meta.

[overseer1234]

OK how about -1 BTB (to sideboard), -2 Cryptic Command and +3 propaganda (1 remains in side) then?

Because the cryptic's are really cool :D.

This also gives me an extra sideboard slot, or should that just be a cryptic then?

Ohw, and I noticed some version playing impulse, what the opinion on that card, also someone i know has been playing MUC with brainstorm, fetch and counterbalance/Sensei's divining top, has this already been discussed? (Its a long thread and I'm to lazy to read every page)

Greetzz,
Robin.

[team17]

Cryptic's are cool in lategame, so you can run a few MD if you really want. 3 Propaganda's is a good number, although i prefer 4. If you see allot non-basics (thresh, landstill and many other decks) you'd better run 4 b2b because they are winning matches.
You can play Echoing Truth sideboard. They take care of annoying tokes (Empty the Warrens, Bridge from Below)

Don't play impulse. Only play brainstorm if you run fetches. Countertop is already discussed but it doesn't work really well in MUC. I hope other people can give a bit more information about this, because i can't :tongue:

[raharu]

Cryptic's are cool in lategame, so you can run a few MD if you really want. 3 Propaganda's is a good number, although i prefer 4. If you see allot non-basics (thresh, landstill and many other decks) you'd better run 4 b2b because they are winning matches.
You can play Echoing Truth sideboard. They take care of annoying tokes (Empty the Warrens, Bridge from Below)

Don't play impulse. Only play brainstorm if you run fetches. Countertop is already discussed but it doesn't work really well in MUC. I hope other people can give a bit more information about this, because i can't :tongue:
Why not play Impulse? In the more permanent-centric versions of the deck Impulse is rather vaulable because it igs for answers in a quick fashion and leaves mana open to cast them in the early game, whereas FoF and AV are too slow to dig for Propaganda or Shackles against Goblins or other agro, which is an important role to fill in the deck. I can see the exclusion of Imulse in the apropriate metagames, but to discount them entirely seems a bit prematurely dismissive, to say the least.

On a CBT(tm) related note, why not play Sensei's Divining Top? You know, by itself? CB is rather ineffective here, but the card selection from Top couldn't be a bad thing, right? I presume it's actually a question of wethe it's better than the slots it would take... and I really can't say which slots it would take. It doesn't serve the same role as Impulse, as Impules gets you an answer NOW, whereas SDT fixes draws and is a long term investment for general CQ. Eh, I presume it's actually a question of whether SDT would be worthwhile without shuffle effects and whatnot. I'd say that it makes FoF and Impulse better, and they make it better, so... perhaps. Maybe in the MMUC builds with Fetchies and Brainstorm, but I'm more interested in it's aplications in the "regular" build of the deck.

[Arne]

Really, that's what I thought. So I'm testing SDT in my permanent orientated MUC build. I know that without any ways of shuffling, SDT loses a lot of power... But i still like it.

my MD:
23 Island

1 morphling
1 rainbow efreet
1 guile

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Spell Snare
4 Impulse
3 Fact or Fiction
1 Echoing Truth

2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Powder Keg
3 Vedalken shackles
3 Back to Basics
3 Propaganda

SB
4 Pithing needle
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Divert
3 Hydroblast
1 Back to Basics

I know, the sideboard needs a bit of tweaking... But I just started playing MUC. The choice for Guile may seem strange but I like his abilities and he protects me a turn against servant/stone

tips/tricks/plain flaming... bring it:P

[team17]

I said don't play impulse because I don't see it in MUC decks alot. Actually it is good to find your answer (b2b, propaganda, shackles) so it isn't bad :rolleyes:. Only problem is that it only draws one card. FoF and Visions draw more cards (often). I dunno about SDT, let me hear the results please.

[overseer1234]

But when u decide to play SDT, then Brainstorm+Fetch would make it an even better engine given that brainstorm+fetch virtually nets u 2 cards anyway, and with SDT+fetch it gives you a reliable engine to search trough your deck. B

ut I think the decklist is to tight to fit all those cards in.
However, I have no experience with this deck so I obviously could be dead wrong in this matter.

[Arne]

Well, the problem is; I also like echoing truth mainboard a lot... And the first card to be removed when I choose to play truth, would be SDT.

But then again; like I said... Even without ways to shuffle, the games I played with this, he turned out to be a welcome draw.

[Illissius]

So, given it fits the designation of "Mono-Blue Control", and I haven't tested it so it might suck so I don't want to start a new thread, it seems logical to post this here. I present you:


Accelerated Blue 2008

4 Meloku the Clouded Mirror
2 Razormane Masticore
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell / Foil
4 Propaganda
4 Powder Keg
3 Vedalken Shackles
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
16 Island

It might still be terrible, but for the first time I've managed to come up with a list which is at least internally coherent -- i.e. doesn't use Disk plus many permanents, nor Chalice plus cards with a converted mana cost of one, nor Shackles plus insufficient Islands, nor Chrome Mox plus many artifacts, nor etc.

My biggest point of worry is City of Traitors. A land which forces you to sacrifice it while you are trying to ramp up to a large amount of mana may not be productive. I shall unfortunately have to play some games of Magic to determine this. On paper, though, at least, if it works out, the deck looks fucking powerful. The :2: lands, in addition to being acceleration, are also card advantage in the same manner as the Karoo lands from Ravnica, by being effectively two lands in one, and the deck is completely full of powerful cards and bombs. It also doesn't include Chrome Mox, a card which I despise.

[Clark Kant]

So, given it fits the designation of "Mono-Blue Control", and I haven't tested it so it might suck so I don't want to start a new thread, it seems logical to post this here. I present you:


Accelerated Blue 2008

4 Meloku the Clouded Mirror
2 Razormane Masticore
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell / Foil
4 Propaganda
4 Powder Keg
3 Vedalken Shackles
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
16 Island

Ancient Tomb eats away your life total like crazy or becomes unusuable. It doesn't belong in a deck that plans to go into the late game.

City can also be problematic but atleast it doesn't help your opponents beat you down with their creatures.

Razormane Masticore is just a pisspoor card. It's card disadvantage is horrendous and it's ability is useless against most of the decent creatures that people play these days (Goyf, Tombstalker, Mongoose etc)

Otherwise, it's fairly close to a standard MUC list with a different choice of win condition. Meloku is not a bad card, but it just doesn't work as a 4 of. Multiple Meloku's are useless.

[raharu]

Perhaps the blue producing land from the Depletion counters cycle would fit here? CiPT and the fact that it still leaves play both nerf it, but then again it couldn't hurt to test it.

Tangent: that list looks much like an old extended deck that ran Morphling and Grim Monolith. On that note, why not run Morphling in the Meloku slot? It has stronger synergy with the :2: lands, at any rate.

[Illissius]

Was there also an Extended deck in that mold? My inspiration was the Accelerated Blue decks of the Urza's Block era, like the one referenced by Kadaj in the opening post -- which, indeed, uses Grim Monolith to cast expensive and powerful things. (I wish Monolith were legal.)

Saprazzan Skerry was thought of, but it comes into play tapped, gets Wastelanded before you can use it even once, and doesn't count for Shackles, which is really the sticking point. Maybe you could use it instead of City of Traitors rather than in addition to it, but as it only taps for mana twice, it's no better and is (hopefully) in many cases worse than City in that respect. Coming into play tapped is something I'm actually not entirely opposed to, because it gives you something to "do" on the first turn if you don't draw either Ancestral Vision or Ancient Tomb plus something which costs :2:, but in this case there doesn't seem to be enough benefit for the cost.

Meloku seems to me a more aggressive card than Morphling (and this is much more of a midrangeish than a pure control deck), and it's castable off two :2: lands and a single Island. You can indeed use the :2: lands on Morphling's abilities, but I'm not sure you would want to continually use Ancient Tombs to pump a Morphling; and Meloku also has synergy with City of Traitors, which is the other one. Morphling is still definitely a possibility, but this was my thinking so far.

[Clark Kant]

Speaking as someone who plays two Ancient Tomb + City of Traitors decks, Dragon Stompy and Fairie Stompy, neither land but esp not Ancient Tomb belongs in a controllish deck, definately not as 4 ofs. Just two activations eats up a fifth of your life total and tempo loss from not being able to use it most turns because of the lifeloss more than exceeds the initial tempo boost in a controllish deck.

Keep in mind, you will be drawing multiple Ancient Tombs later on, which will also be unplayable/unusable and you will have to sac your early city fairly fast too. So card disadvantage is unaviodable when you're trying to accelerate. Just accept that. If you really want to accelerate, you really ought to be playing Chrome Mox instead. You can make up for the card disadvantage.

Meloku isn't even that strong until you have a lot of islands in play. And once again, it's redundant in multiples. So I really don't think you should run 4. I think a 2/2 split between Morphling and Meloku could work fairly well.

[Illissius]

Yes, I suspect the :2: lands not being great fits for a control deck might be the downfall of it; but figuring out whether they actually are requires me to get off my lazy ass and test it. I shall do this, sometime...

[Kadaj]

Having screwed around with lists of that ilk myself, and I have a list that's actually pretty similar to yours with some minor tweaks, I can basically say the major issues that arise are consistency ones. Ancient Tomb isn't that annoying, it's just frustrating when you do draw multiples and find yourself unable to play them because you can't afford to lose that much life. Then again, my build ran Crystal Vein in addition to less City of Traitors, and I think less Ancient Tomb as well, so I didn't have quite the same issues you do. The major issues I ran into were either lacking explosiveness and just becoming a bad MUC build, or having too much explosiveness and finding myself locked by my own Masticore. I also ran Chrome Mox, so that contributed, but meh.

I don't like Meloku at all in this format, and I'm almost positive Morphling is better for this style of deck considering you have much more mana to sink into it but not as many lands to be able to bounce. Morphling is also way more resilient, which is important when your threats are crucial to actually staying alive.

Here is my really old list (I haven't done anything with this in at least half a year):

X13 Island
X4 Ancient Tomb
X3 City of Traitors
X3 Crystal Vein
X4 Morphling
X3 Masticore
X4 Force of Will
X4 Chrome Mox
X4 Fact or Fiction
X4 Ancestral Vision
X4 Chalice of the Void
X4 Propaganda
X4 Powder Keg
X2 Open Slot

Chrome Mox is one of those love/hate cards. Some days I would love it because turn 1 Propaganda is monstrous, and other days I would hate it because drawing turn 5 Chrome Mox when you need gas is well... terrible. Crystal Vein was surprisingly good due mainly to the fact that you don't need to sacrifice it, which allows you to maintain some degree of lands on the board. One issue I would run into over and over again was having Masticore out but something like 2 cards in hand, so I was locked under my own card because I just wouldn't draw FoF or AV to pull out of it.

Other than that, I don't really know if there's too much incentive to play this sort of thing over say, Faerie Stompy. It's inconsistent, lacks thrust, and runs into all different kinds of identity crisis nonsense. Then again, my list isn't exactly refined, so maybe a well-tested list would do much better.

[Illissius]

Whenever I play a deck where it is physically possible to draw multiple copies of Chrome Mox, I do it every single time. So I'm definitely on the "hate" side of that question. Whenever I draw it I feel like my hand just got ten times worse. It's a good fit for decks which are willing to sacrifice cards for large tempo boosts in the early game -- the Stompy decks, basically -- but I don't like playing with it, and I especially don't like putting it in a midrange or control deck.

Crystal Vein is an interesting possibility in case City of Traitors really does turn out to suck too much. Razormane Masticore was one of the last inclusions in my build, because I felt like I wanted more threats and some more oomph against creature decks, but the slot could just as easily be Morphling or anything else. I do think it has potential (more than its vanilla brethren) because it's just an absolutely monstrous creature, so I'm going to test it before dismissing it.


The major issues I ran into were either lacking explosiveness and just becoming a bad MUC build, or having too much explosiveness and finding myself locked by my own Masticore.

I dunno. If you don't draw any :2: lands and only Islands, then this happens to be entirely coincidental, but then the deck is incredibly close to your plain MUC build with the B2Bs swapped for Chalices. So it might be suboptimal, but I think it should still be completely workable. As for the issue of too much explosiveness leading to running out of steam, I do think this must've been in large part due to the Moxen, because the only card in my build besides Razormane which could arguably lose card advantage is City of Traitors -- while a hell of a lot of them gain it.

Anyways, I may or may not actually test the deck later today, so I'll report on my findings if and when I do.

[Anusien]

If the main problem with that build is that you lose too much life casting your men, then what about Exalted Angel? The life gain is comparable to making blockers for most situations. It might force you into running more nonbasics, but you can always run Mystic Gate and just hold it in your hand until you need it.

[Hummingbird TG]

Mystic Gate isn't fetchable. How many do you intend to run just so that you can draw them reliably? Seems worse than just running 2 Tundra or 3 to me...

[Clark Kant]

I've been working on a new deck for a day or so designed specifically to test out the viability of Godhead of Awe in legacy.

Godhead of Awe :wu::wu::wu::wu::wu:

Flying
All other creatures are 1/1s

4/4

A humility with a 4/4 flying body that is unaffected by the humility ability is quite strong.

Yes it needs to be protected to be broken, but even if it isn't, it's a 1:1 trade with their countermagic or removal spell.

Humility was a pure control card. Godhead has the same effect on cards like Goyf, but is also a large beater, a five turn clock, and a deterrent for their 1/1s to attack. Plus Godhead is blue and also pitchable to Force, which is very relevent. Unlike humility it doesn't effect creature abilities, but nowadays, the major creatures that are played are...

Tarmogoyf
Nimble Mongoose
Tombstalker
Dreadnought

It doesn't matter that it doesn't effect their abilities, making them into 1/1s is plenty powerful.

It combos beautifully with Meloku, (Morphling, Shackles and Rainbow Efreet to some extent), Mishra's Factory and a crap load of other very solid cards (Bitterblossom, Pyroclasm etc) worth running by themselves.

As 1/1s your opponent can't attack into a 4/4 blocker or the factory. But if you're at the advantage, you can attack with your 4/4 to quickly finish them off.

It is actually very comparable to Exalted Angel, unblockable 4 damage with a very useful ability is better than a flying 4/5 with lifegain imo. The lack of an alternate casting cost sucks. But Angel ate up 7 mana using up all your mana for two full turns for the alternate casting cost, or 6 in one turn. Godhead only use 5 in one turn. Even if you used an Ancient Tomb to help cast the Angel, he ends up using the same number of lands to cast as Godhead.

The deck is still a bit rough around the edges. It definately works well so far but it's early and needs more tweaking, testing, and tuning before we can figure out if Godhead is worth it.

//Mana
23 Island
4 Chrome Mox

//Disruption
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Back to Basics
2 Veldalken Shackles

//Threats
3 Meloku
4 Godhead of Awe

//Draw
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Fact or Fiction

//Countermagic
4 FoW
4 Counterspell
1 Misdirection

Card Explanations:

Chrome Mox - solid acceleration, enables turn one Chalice.

Chalice of the Void - stops StP, buries thresh and combo

Back to Basics - Stops many decks including Landstill cold. But could be better off cutting this to support 2 Saprazzan Skerr/Mishra's Factory and a white splash to let me play Oblivion Ring and Engineered Explosives.

Meloku - great by itself and fantastic with Godhead

Godhead of Awe - godsend against aggro, one of MUC's worst matchups.

[Kadaj]

Godhead might be a decent card, but this isn't the shell for it. MUC is incapable of really making Godhead count, and I fail to see how a single Godhead is better than Propaganda. Yes, it's a 4/4 flier, but it doesn't actually stop Goblins from running you over, quite the opposite, and it's a five drop so it's not helping you in the early game when you actually struggle against aggro.

The other issue I have with Godhead is that aggro isn't actually that bad of a matchup, and even if it was, Godhead wouldn't help. Goblins is, but Goblins isn't really comparable to other aggro. It has an infinitely stronger mid-game than most aggro and you can't one for one Goblins and hope to have any chance of winning. On top of that, Godhead really doesn't help in aggro matchups anyway. Goyf-Sligh? By the time you drop Godhead they'll either just burn you to death because you tapped out, or they'll just kill it and swing in. Eva Green? Snuff-Out isn't exactly fun to run into, and Shade can still pump itself past your Godhead anyway.

You listed a bunch of cards that are solid on their own and get better with Godhead, and you'll notice none of them are really present here. Could you build 4 Color Control and utilize Godhead? Potentially, but it doesn't belong here. Especially since the major incentive to play MUC in the first place is Back to Basics and the huge advantage that gives you over aggro-control and control. Godhead doesn't help against either of the aformentioned archtypes, as it's too expensive to be worth it against Thresh and Control won't care about it, and it's not fast enough or strong enough to help against aggro.

So, in short, Godhead might be decent somewhere, but that place isn't here.

[Clark Kant]

You make some good points. I agree with you that Godhead is only really shines against nongoblins aggro and aggro control. It does slow down goblins too, and can easily win combined with Shackles to steal their utility critters to use as additional blockers.

And this may not be the ideal deck for Godhead.

My only disagreements are...

Goyf Sligh can't kill you nearly as fast as you say it can.

Chalice at 1 stops much of Goyf Sligh spells cold as well as StP and plenty of other cards without effecting your own deck.

You have FoW, MisD and counterspell to stop their more devastating spells and can outright ignore stuff like Price of Prgoress.

Propaganda is only so so useful against nongolbins aggro.

They can still attack with their 5/6 goyf just by paying two mana. Mid-late game, your opponent has no problem paying 4 mana to swing with their guys. Most aggro decks have plenty of spare mana in mid-late game.

And most importantly, Propaganda is not a clock/finisher. Godhead wins in 5 turns all while making your opponents clock very small.



Cliffnotes: Propaganda is barely useful against Tombstalker, Goyf and Dreadnought, and they're the meanest and most popular creatures in the format by far. Godhead however works well against all three.

There are a number of previously bad matchups that I found Godhead to be invaluable in. Eva Green used to completely wreck my MUC builds. Now all I have to do is stall them till turn 4 and cast Godhead to stabilize instantly. The only removal they play is Snuff Out and without supplemental card draw, it is fairly easy to protect against.

[Kadaj]

Goyf Sligh can't kill you nearly as fast as you say it can.

Chalice at 1 stops much of Goyf Sligh spells cold as well as StP and plenty of other cards without effecting your own deck.

You have FoW, MisD and counterspell to stop their more devastating spells and can outright ignore stuff like Price of Prgoress.

Propaganda is only so so useful against nongolbins aggro.

They can still attack with their 5/6 goyf just by paying two mana. Mid-late game, your opponent has no problem paying 4 mana to swing with their guys. Most aggro decks have plenty of spare mana in mid-late game.

And most importantly, Propaganda is not a clock/finisher. Godhead wins in 5 turns all while making your opponents clock very small.

Propaganda is much stronger against non-Goblins aggro than Godhead is. Propaganda+B2B is very nearly a lock against most decks, whereas Godhead can be very nearly ignored. Multiple Propgandas are also brutal against aggro of all kinds, whereas multiple Godheads are either redundant or terrible, depending on whether they turn each other into 1/1s which I'm not sure about.

The fact that Godhead is a clock is irrelevant because we have neither need nor want of a clock out of that slot. If you're struggling to finish your matches on time then you need more practice with the deck, not a crutch to lean on.

[Jason]

I have enough trouble beating landstill with mono blue control; now you want me to turn my creatures that can beat it down into 1/1's to get eaten by Factories? The reason I maindeck two Cryptic Commands is in case landstill sticks a Humility and I can have an out against it. Turning my creatures into 1/1's and further delaying the game seems like a bad idea.

Think about playing landstill:
You play Godhead on turn 5. Landstill counters it or swords it at end of turn. Sad Panda.
Or...
You play Godhead in the late game. Landstill says ok. End of turn, cycle decree for lots of guys. Smash face with lots of guys and factories. Sadder Panda.

I would rather have a Morphling that can't get swords or Meloku who can throw 1/1 's back in response to decree. Not to mention, both hit harder than Godhead when you are on the offensive.

I think spending 5 mana on a creature better get you a huge swing and Morphling and Meloku both do that. Godhead...not so much. But that's just me, I guess.

[Clark Kant]

Actually a lot of our worst matchups Eva Green and other Sui variants are barely effected by Back to Basics and only minimally slowed by a turn three Propaganda.

Don't forget how strong Godhead is with the Meloku either. Since when can Factory fly? I count 7 threats in the deck, all of which can fly, 3 of which create flying tokens to chump block factories if needed, and 4 of which can block factories all day long if needed.

Of course Godhead isn't great against landstill. Never claimed it was. You have back to basics against landstill.

Also, the timing with Ancestral Visions or Fact or Fiction couldn't be more perfect either. You draw a bunch of cards just at the right time that if one of them is Godhead, you can cast it, or if you already have Godhead, have a good shot at drawing a counterspell to protect it.

All in all, you guys may be right and Godhead maybe better suited for a white control deck ala parfait or something. I just wanted to share that it's been good against some of our worse mathcups and may be worth further testing.

[Kadaj]

Actually a lot of our worst matchups Eva Green and other Sui variants are barely effected by Back to Basics and only minimally slowed by a turn three Propaganda.

Wrong. Highly wrong, actually. Propaganda often makes it impossible for Eva Green to continue throwing threats at you and maintaining their disruption. It's actually quite similar to what it does to Threshold. Against Thresh it makes them choose between cantripping and attacking. Against Eva Green it makes them choose between attacking and disrupting. And I don't know about you, but by turn 5, you better be able to deal with a Goyf, or a Negator, or whathaveyou.

Back to Basics is also quite strong against Eva Green usually for a similar reason. They can't maintain their disruption and continue attacking, which makes it infinitely easier to land a Shackles, for example, which will often end the game right there. Seriously, go read up the matchup between Goblins and Eva Green in the Two Man Tournament for some insight into how mana disruption throws Eva Green off. Is our disruption the same as Goblins? No, it doesn't carry the same aggressive weight behind it, but it actually hits a much broader and more powerful spectrum.

Seriously, B2B is really hard for just about anything with non-basics to play around or through, and Eva Green is no different. Is Eva Green is a positive matchup? No, but adding Godhead and Chalice won't help that. If anything, adding Chalice and Chrome Mox would hurt it because they open you up to being hit harder by Eva Green's disruption. Mox is also awful in MUC. Seriously. And by extension, because Chalice relies on Mox to be good, Chalice is also weak in MUC. Is it a bomb in the right decks? Obviously. But this isn't one of them.

[Clark Kant]

Of course situations vary.

But generally speaking, Eva Green throws out their barrage of disruption at you early on, thanks to Ritual. Then casts an overpowered undercosted threat or two and beat face with them till you die. You can counter one of them, but they still have one large resolved threat thats quite a clock. They have no means to draw cards, it's the initial barrage of Ritual, Thoughtseize, Hymn etc that depletes their disruption. But afterwards they can usually afford to pay the 2 mana for propaganda to keep beating face with their threat.

I'm not saying Propaganda doesn't effect them at all. It hurts them a bit. But it was rarely enough to turn the game around. How often do you face Sui Variants, or Eva Green in particular. I play them quite a bit.

B2B isn't great against them. Green is a very light splash for them. So the best you can hope for is that they fetch one Bayou and everything as Swamps, if that, they could get away with fetching only basic swamps if they have no Goyfs in hand. So B2B maybe hits a Bayou after they got one use of it (the critical use to play the one green card in their hand). Thus B2B becomes the equivalent of a 3cc Blight in terms of how devastating it is. Sometimes you get lucky and they also draw a wasteland and you don't have any factories for them to target, but it can't be counted on.

[Jason]

Don't forget how strong Godhead is with the Meloku either. Since when can Factory fly? I count 7 threats in the deck, all of which can fly, 3 of which create flying tokens to chump block factories if needed, and 4 of which can block factories all day long if needed.


I think you missed the point. Yes you have 7 "threats" in the deck that can all fly but once one Godhead is in play, 6 of your "threats" aren't really very threatening. In fact, you should be saying you only have 3 threats left, if by threats you mean 1/1 fliers for 5 mana that can make more 1/1 fliers for an additional one mana. That last statement alone leads me to believe that you are confused when you say Godhead is strong with Meloku. Part of Meloku's strength is that it has a fat ass and can get there if needed.

Also, you don't really have 4 Godhead of Awes which can block factories all day long. You have one Godhead because multiple Godhead in play = poop and makes Factory a tad bigger. So if you leave your one Godhead sitting there and not attacking - guess what? - Landstill is not going to attack either and the game will go on. And the longer the game goes, the less likely you will win because Decree cycles for many uncounterable guys and Godhead can't block more than one at a time. The other option is to attack and hope you win the damage race. I wouldn't count on it all the time because of landstill's many outs in Swords to Plowshares or Humility or Wrath of God or even Cunning Wish into Pulse of the Fields or simply outbeating you with factories and Decree tokens. It seems like the Godhead slot would be better suited for more Shackles because instead of waiting to turn their Tarmogoyf into a 1/1 for 5 mana, I would just rather steal it and beat face. Also, this way you can have Powder Keg for the Decree tokens and hope the landstill opponent doesn't do crazy shenanigans with Crucible of Worlds before Morphling and/or Meloku get there.

[Illissius]

So I got in all of one (pretty damn long) game against UGW Threshold with my Accelerated Blue list above. Props to Anusien for helping me test.

Findings:

- I'm still a bad player
- It was a hell of a lot closer than it should've been, given Threshold should be among the deck's best matchups
- But my endless stream of bombs did pull me through in the end
- Countertop can still be incredibly annoying, countering Ancestral, your two mana stuff, and especially when they flip Force for your creatures
- Morphling is better than Meloku against decks with Swords when I don't have Chalice at one, which is actually most of the time. If I had Morphling in there instead I would've won the game much earlier. So Kadaj, you might be right about this. (Then again, he had EE for the tokens, so that complicates the picture.)
- (And on the other hand, Melolku is likely better against Goblins, both for normal reasons and Warren Weirding.)
- I drew only one :2: land, a City of Traitors, and it was pretty good -- not amazing, but definitely not horrible either
- I never actually resolved a Razormane, so I can't say with certainty how good it would've been, but they did always get countered. Could however be awkward against red Threshold when they have Mongeese and Bolts.
- Powder Keg was pretty good
- Propaganda was mediocre, given how long the game went
- Fact was good, Ancestral was good except when it got countered by fucking Counterbalance
- Shackles can't target a Mongoose, but I did have more than enough Islands to steal anything up to and including Tarmogoyfs had targets presented themselves

Conclusions:
I'm going to try putting some Morphlings into the fat creature slots -- whether in place of Melokus or Razormanes and how many, I'm not yet sure. Thoughts?
And what do people think about Counterspell vs. Foil?


If the main problem with that build is that you lose too much life casting your men, then what about Exalted Angel? The life gain is comparable to making blockers for most situations. It might force you into running more nonbasics, but you can always run Mystic Gate and just hold it in your hand until you need it.

This is not a bad idea; you'd have to cut Shackles, but you can also cut Propaganda and play Moat. It's a shame these are all :w::w:, but that's life. What else do you use for creature control though? Swords is (unfortunately) out because of Chalice, Propaganda and Prison are redundant with Moat, so... Keg? Halo? Wrath? Control Magic? Having all your critter control cost 4 is probably not great.

[Clark Kant]

Jason, I should have been clearer as to why I'm running a full playset of Godhead of Awe.


I've been working on a new deck for a day or so designed specifically to test out the viability of Godhead of Awe in legacy.


I honestly don't think 4 Godhead is the correct number. Sorry if I gave you the impression that I did. All I am saying is that I found Godhead to be pretty useful, and certainly useful enough to atleast warrant more testing.

[Jason]

This is not a bad idea; you'd have to cut Shackles, but you can also cut Propaganda and play Moat. It's a shame these are all :w::w:, but that's life. What else do you use for creature control though? Swords is (unfortunately) out because of Chalice, Propaganda and Prison are redundant with Moat, so... Keg? Halo? Wrath? Control Magic? Having all your critter control cost 4 is probably not great.

If you are going this route then what about Serendib Efreet and/or Sea Drake and just go for a beatdown kind of routine. And if you can hit :w: :w: then Runed Halo is a really powerful card but I think it could maybe work keeping it monoblue with something like the following (tweaking your list from before):

3 Serendib Efreet
4 Sea Drake
1 Morphling
1 Meloku
3 Ancestral Vision
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell / Foil / Mana Leak
3 Propaganda
3 Powder Keg
3 Vedalken Shackles
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
16 Island

And I wouldn't play Counterspell because you need :u: :u: which you may not have until turn three, so Foil may be a better option (but then again that eats up your hand...) or you could run Mana Leak. I'm not sure though...I am horrible at deck building. Mana Leak would probably be my choice though.

[Jason]

Then again with Sea Drake, you would probably want to run Chrome Mox for it to be really good...I'm not sure how it would play out.

[Illissius]

Yeah, I don't know of any deck which plays Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors, Chrome Mox, Serendib Efreet, and Sea Drake. That might be an interesting idea for someone to try out.

[Eldariel]

Yeah, I don't know of any deck which plays Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors, Chrome Mox, Serendib Efreet, and Sea Drake. That might be an interesting idea for someone to try out.

The amusing part is, that's pretty much how it went when I first figured I'd want to build Faerie Stompy.

[gobblor]

What do you guys think is the best option Spell Snare or Force Spike? im having a hard time deciding.

Not sure if it has already been discussed but would counterbalance/top be good in this deck?

Just a thought but I think it would be cool to sideboard in the painter servant combo after game 1 they wont be expecting it. but this takes up most of the sideboard.

[Ch@os]

What do you guys think is the best option Spell Snare or Force Spike? im having a hard time deciding.

Not sure if it has already been discussed but would counterbalance/top be good in this deck?

Just a thought but I think it would be cool to sideboard in the painter servant combo after game 1 they wont be expecting it. but this takes up most of the sideboard.

Transform-Sideboards dont work very well, especially on a tournament. After 1-2 games people will talk about the transform SB-Dude. ;>

Spell Snare should be better, because second turn drops hurt you to much.

[Kadaj]

Not sure if it has already been discussed but would counterbalance/top be good in this deck?

Read the opening post. Counterbalance/Top is discussed there.

[Shawn]

What do you guys think is the best option Spell Snare or Force Spike? im having a hard time deciding.

Spell Snare, imho. I had a list with Force Spike, but it was obviously awful in the lategame, and was always boarded out. Spell Snare counters (for the most part) the cards you would counter with Force Spike anyway, such as Dark Confidant, Burning Wish, Counterbalance, Goyf, Survival, Hymn, Shade, etc. It's also infinitely better against the mirror and other control decks, such as landstill. Being able to Force Spike a Nimble Mongoose was awesome, but it doesn't happen often enough to warrant its inclusion.

[Piceli89]

Has no one taken into acount the new fuckin merfolk of Eventide, Wake Trasher ? I think he fits perfectly in Muc, where he can finish the game very quickly if protected and is not so slow as morphling. Having A 10/10 every turn is not so shitty...

[Eldariel]

Wait, so now Morphling is slow because it kills in 4 turns...? Seriously, it begins to seem like people don't appreciate 'Pling enough. Reasons to run it:
-It's immune to all relevant spot removal.
-It's evasive.
-It's a 4-turn clock.
-It's got the ability to play defense and offense.
-It only costs 5.

Out of those, Wake Thrasher could maybe be a faster turn and costs less. In other ways, it's complete trash; it has no evasion so it runs into chumps, it's 1/1 out-of-turn so it can't defend at all, let alone while playing offense. Also, it dies to Mogg Fanatic. It definitely isn't immune to spot removal, making Swords to Plowshares et al. relevant cards again. Why you'd ever even consider it over 'Pling I'll never know.

So in other words, Wake Thrasher is a win condition in the sense that it can deal damage to the opponent. It qualifies for none of the prerequisites MUC finisher has.

[Illissius]

You're also not going to tap out every turn to power it up.

[Eldariel]

You're also not going to tap out every turn to power it up.

Oh yeah. So 1/1 finisher; GL.

[Jason]

It seems like Cold-Eyed Selkie would be a better option in MUC than Wake Thrasher because it at least seems like it could strengthen landstill or threshold matchups. And like previously said, you aren't going to necessarily be untapping a lot of permanents to make the Wake Thrasher good, so it seems like Selkie could be the better 1/1 for MUC because it actually does something. But I don't know... I tried Augury Adept in one build and it didn't work for me, so I doubt Selkie will either. Swords to Plowshares makes Ophidian (all types) and Wake Thrasher cry.

[Illissius]

Ever since Kadaj made me realize that Jace Beleren exists, I've been much less enthusiastic about the various creatures you can attack with to draw cards.

[Jason]

Ever since Kadaj made me realize that Jace Beleren exists, I've been much less enthusiastic about the various creatures you can attack with to draw cards.

Good call. Totally forgot Jace exists myself.

[Shimster]

I tried to combine the stack-oriented build presented bei Doks with the permanent-based MUC created by Kadaj.

// Lands
13 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Plains
1 Swamp

// Creatures
2 Morphling
1 Rainbow Efreet

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Back to Basics
4 Propaganda
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Spell Snare

// Sideboard
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Chill
2 Repeal
2 Spell Snare
2 Jace Beleren
1 Vedalken Shackles

So basically, I wanted to have Sensei's Divining Top in the original Foil slots of Kadaj's list, as they are very good in such a slow deck (no offense intended). To make the top good, fetchlands are obviously needed. If I play them, I can justify to use Brainstorm instead of Ancestral Visions. With Brainstorm in the team, I am able to cut one land and one Explosives, in order to find room for Spell Snares. As I play them in Solidarity, I know how good they are in the current meta.

[gobblor]

Just throwing this out there, but does the new card from eventide Ward of Bones have any potential? it costs 6 which is quite alot but maybe could be decent in this deck.

[Bahamuth]

Just throwing this out there, but does the new card from eventide Ward of Bones have any potential? it costs 6 which is quite alot but maybe could be decent in this deck.

Nope. It's way too expensive and it doesn't offer an answer for permanents that are in play already. You can expect some permanents in play by turn 6.

[idraleo]

I got few time now, but yesterday i did 4-2 on a 42 people tournament, missing top8 by rating, losing a pair of insane game (no 5th land drop for 7 turns against trinketstill that scoops me with 10 trinket attacks,and a random deck that scoops me with dash hopes :P), the deck seems quite powerful, expecially for Chalice maindecked that gives me good percentual to Dreadstill and comboish. I' ve runned a couple of Godhead of Awe, that's creature is a nice finisher and is completely insane against creature base decks, expecially if combined with Shackles.

// Lands
24 [CS] Snow-Covered Island

// Creatures
1 [US] Morphling
2 [SHM] Godhead of Awe

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [TE] Propaganda
3 [IN] Fact or Fiction
4 [MM] Counterspell
4 [TSP] Ancestral Vision
2 [US] Back to Basics
3 [LRW] Cryptic Command
2 [UD] Powder Keg
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 1 [UD] Powder Keg
SB: 4 [TE] Chill
SB: 4 [A] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [MR] Sun Droplet
SB: 2 [OD] Divert

[Clark Kant]

That's a very cool list. Congratulations on doing well.

Glad to see that atleast one person was willing to try Godhead of Awe instead of just dismissing it off hand. :smile:

How were the cryptic commands?

[Librarian_Gummi]

According to deckcheck it seems a MUC deck has won a tourney yesterday (58 participants).

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=18288

[electrolyze]

the list looks really different than other muc builds but i know the person that won the tourney and he already explained me and some other guys his choiches and its a really strong build. he already made really good results with his build in a very tier based meta(thresh,loam,ichorid etc.)

he is on this forum too, i thought his name was soulles.

[Kadaj]

That deck is so different from standard MUC that I would go so far as to say it isn't even really MUC anymore. It's much closer to a Mono-Blue Fish build than it is to MUC, despite the fact many of the cards are similar. The core strategy just seems so different that it has become a different deck.

[idraleo]

That's a very cool list. Congratulations on doing well.

Glad to see that atleast one person was willing to try Godhead of Awe instead of just dismissing it off hand. :smile:

How were the cryptic commands?


Cryptics where extraordinary good against Stax and Stompy-based decks, and helps against Lansdtill too giving the posibility to get an early counter without losing cards, it always did a 2x1 and at least it recycle itself. I' ve found some interesting response against landstill playing Chalices on 1 and simply dropping Godhead or Morphling to saw Landstill player waste theyr resources to sweep of Chalice and get an StP on our finisher, giving another way to ride the mu instead of going only on B2B. I where unlucky on rating after ending my swiss at 4-2 because 4 of my preview opponent dropped and kill my rating ^^''''

[Clark Kant]

Due to this deck's heavy dependence on making a land drop every single early turn, I feel like upping the land count without actually playing more land. I have had to occasion Impulse for an Island instead of a business spell, which sucks.

I am very tempted to run a singleton Shoreline Ranger along with the 24 islands that I do play.

Its basically like playing impulse, but can sometimes act as a critical much needed flying threat/blocker late game. And it pitch to FoW unlike lands.

If not Shoreline Ranger, perhaps Lonely Sandbar is a reasonable option.

What do you guys think?

[Shimster]

It's not your idea, is it? Eldariel played Shoreline Ranger in Faerie Stompy at a Magic League Trial in November '07.

The good thing about Impulse is that it digs _4_ cards into your library, looking for either a land, a counterspell, a finisher or a piece of boardcontrol. Islandcycling isn't as flexible as Impulse.

[Clark Kant]

Yes, but since a major concern is Morphling getting Deeded or Extripated, its an extra win conditon.

It also could jump in as a critical blocker to buy time.

Just throwing it out there. Not sure if it's ideal.

It seems to compare unfavorably with Impulse so maybe not.

[Shawon]

If you have room for only 1-2 Impulse/Shoreline Ranger, why not just play more Islands? Nothing wrong with 25-26 lands.

Speaking of lands, what do you guys think of Dreadship Reef? Yes, it's nonbasic, we no like nonbasic, but it seems to fit along with the strategies of MUC. Store counters EOT, and continue doing so until you need to "go for it" and have enough mana to cast your business spells AND protection.

I noticed Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir hasn't been mentioned yet in this thread. Any thoughts on Teferi? Hey, why not also add Mystical Teachings and call MUC "Legacy Teachings?" Just kidding. Teferi should at least be considered, though.

For what it's worth, would Think Twice be better than Impulse for the deck? My impression is that MUC prefers raw card advantage over filtering, so I'm thinking that THink Twice might serve a better purpose than Impulse, as Think Twice provides card advantage but it's cheap enough to draw into morel land.

Might as well throw this out just to remind people it exists: Draining Whelk. Imagine countering a Tombstalker with Draining Whelk. That'd be hilarious.

[Shawon]

It's not your idea, is it? Eldariel played Shoreline Ranger in Faerie Stompy at a Magic League Trial in November '07.

The good thing about Impulse is that it digs _4_ cards into your library, looking for either a land, a counterspell, a finisher or a piece of boardcontrol. Islandcycling isn't as flexible as Impulse.
But you also have to take into account that if you Impulse early and you see one of your finishers in those 4 cards and you need a land, then you increase the chance of screwing yourself over in finding a finisher, since you have NO shuffling effects in your deck.

[Adan]

Well, I still find Kadaj's list with Brainstorms extremely sexy.

I only exchanged the 3 Kegs with Explosives (because they are better) and added 1 Plains and 1 Swamp, it plays extremely smooth.

The build without Brainstorms sometimes has got the problems of having dead cards in the hand (for example Back2basics against monocolored/2colored decks) and therefore I always wanted to have the possibility of turning those cards into useful resources (that's Brainstorm here).

So my list actually looks like his list, but without Meloku and with Swamp-Plains 4 EE support:

// Lands
14 [UG] Island
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [UG] Swamp
1 [UG] Plains
4 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
2 [US] Morphling
1 [VI] Rainbow Efreet

// Spells
3 [US] Back to Basics
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Counterspell
3 [TE] Propaganda
4 [IN] Fact or Fiction
2 [PY] Foil
4 [TSP] Ancestral Vision
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [MM] Brainstorm

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 1 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 3 [GP] Repeal
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [DIS] Spell Snare

I don't know what should be inserted into the SB, but I found this maindeck to be very sexy.

I have another one with Think Twice-Accumulated Knowledge-Intuition-Drawengine, but I don't know whether this build should be better than the above list. I like them both.

[Jason]

But you also have to take into account that if you Impulse early and you see one of your finishers in those 4 cards and you need a land, then you increase the chance of screwing yourself over in finding a finisher, since you have NO shuffling effects in your deck.

I don't think you really screw yourself over in finding a finisher - you are looking at it wrong. In the early game if I need to Force of Will something, usually the first card to go is one of my creatures if it is in my hand. Why? Because I don't need the creature until much much later in the game. Part of the reason why I was initially scared to run Fact or Fiction was because I have bad luck and would more than likely Fact or Fiction into one of my win conditions. (I was running 4 Impulse and 4 Ancestral Visions at the time) After much playing, I realized Fact or Fiction is good because if they split it 4-1, you get huge card advantage and will win with one of your other creatures (or their creatures under your control). I guess if you have really bad luck, you could Impulse for a land and find your three creatures with it, but even in that case, you still have Shackles to beat face or 3 more Impulse to put 9 additional cards on the bottom of your deck, which will be enough to win with once you finally get your library down that low.

But I do really like the idea of Shoreline Ranger. Currently, I have 4 Fact or Fiction, 4 Impulse and 2 Jace Beleren for my card draw, but I finally realized the importance of Rainbow Efreet so I think I am going to cut the 2x Jace from the main deck and add a Rainbow Efreet and a Shoreline Ranger. It seems interesting at least.

[Doks]

The first MUC-Thread dealed with Teferi and number of Wincons I guess.

Teferi:

I used to play single copy of him in some of my modern MUC builds, but he was just a metagame call: lots of Thresh and non-Landstill control.
He took away their countermagic, blocked Mongoose or at least involved them into an EOT-counterwar to force through another important card next turn. One could say more a control tool than another finisher.

Wincons:

Mainly everyone agreed that 3 was the right number, usually a split of 2 Morphling and 1 X (where X is Rainbow Efreet or Meloku, depending on metagame and playstyle). I agree with that, too, but would still like kind of more flexible Wincon that's not only there for killing opponent or at least doesn't cost 5+ Mana (Hoofprints would be nice, but requires a splash).
The above stated Wincons Morphling and Meloku do affect the board when you are in an unfavourable position though, what makes them at least not only useful if it comes down to winning issues.
I have not yet tested Jace for a longer period, but he might be a good inclusion MB if you find a steady way to protect him cuz otherwise a dawengine (and a secondary wincon) that is eliminated by a single attacking Goyf is probably not what we are looking for.

[Illissius]

I did a bit more testing with the Accelerated Blue deck, going 2-0 against an odd UBR Painter/Dreadnought amalgation and 1-0 against ITF, with a creature mix of 4 Morphling 2 Meloku this time (rather than the previous 4 Meloku 2 Razormane).

Findings:
- Basic Islands are awesome
- Tomb and City are not awesome against Wastelands, especially recurring Wastelands
- But we knew that
- Chalice is awesome, especially (of course) on the first turn
- It seems that many decks have real trouble dealing with an endless stream of powerful card drawing and five-mana blue monsters
- Counterbalance is still annoying, because it counters Ancestral, Counterspell, and Keg. However, of the two games so far where my opponent assembled Countertop, I did win both.
- Propaganda has been by far the worst card in the deck. It just tends to basically say "do nothing", as opposed to the other cards in the deck, nearly all of which say "do quite a bit". I've never been happy to see it. Given the decks I've played against so far this is perhaps not too surprising; but then again, the main (and close to only?) deck Propaganda is supposed to be really awesome against is Goblins, which doesn't seem to be a very huge metagame presence these days. So I'm wondering what else these slots could productively be used for -- ideally, some other semblance of board control. Maybe something that can also get rid of Counterbalance? Disk goes well with the :2: lands, but not so well with the other half of the deck. What else, besides Repeal?
- Oh, and despite not having actually played with Foil, I am now pretty sure that Counterspell is better than Foil

[Kadaj]

Well, I still find Kadaj's list with Brainstorms extremely sexy.

I only exchanged the 3 Kegs with Explosives (because they are better) and added 1 Plains and 1 Swamp, it plays extremely smooth.

I actually highly disagree with you. I find that without Powder Keg the Landstill matchup gets quite a bit worse. EE cannot destroy man-lands, and you'd be very surprised how much that ends up mattering. I don't necessarily think adding Brainstorm to my list is a horribly bad idea, even if I don't think it's that good as I've already explained, but claiming EE is flat-out better than Keg is just wrong.

As far as Propaganda goes, test any form of aggro (Affinity, Goblins, Goyf Slight, whatever) and you'll see precisely why they're in there. However, if you don't expect any aggro, don't play them.

[Jason]

I don't like the Brainstorm/Fetches in the build, but then again I have also played against some tempo threshold decks maindecking Stifle, and getting Stone-Rained on turn 1 or 2 is not a good feeling for a Mono-blue player. Making land drops is critical so I am always scared to run this.

And as for the Propagandas, I really feel that Goblins and Ichorid are the biggest reasons to run them. The other aggro decks just seem slower and thus I have had no problem with Shackles slowing them down enough until I can stabilize. Since I don't see much Goblins where I play and Propaganda isn't game over for Ichorid as many would say at first sight (Propaganda + Back to Basics isn't even...blasted Lion's Eye Diamond adding mana AND discarding Ray of Revelation), I just resort to Propagandas in the sideboard. I do this especially because the few people who I come across that do play Goblins apparently are not too smart and decide to sideboard in red blasts, slowing their deck down and giving me an advantage after sideboard with my blue blasts and Propagandas coming in. Maybe I shouldn't have said that...now they might stop doing that...

[gobblor]

I Came across this build today while I was on Deck Check
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=18389

It looks alot differernt from the normal muc builds and even uses to CB/TOP. What do you guys think about it?

Also It says sidboard only 4 cards Im assuming it is a mistype..

[Kadaj]

Basically what I think about that list is that even poor lists can be successful at times, especially if the pilot happens to be exceptionally proficient. I would also like to refer the creator of that deck to the article about "Danger of Cool Things", but that's another matter entirely.

[idraleo]

A simpLe first Look at the deckList:

- 22 Lands, no moxes
- 11 artifact maindeck
- no maindeck Propaganda

The right sideboard was:

1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Gaea's Blessing
2 Faerie Macabre
4 Blue elemental blast
3 Chill
4 Propaganda

What i'm asking for is how this build could won by Goblin on game 1 or other random aggro deck without Propaganda. I thought it had simpLy dodged his unfair mup's and surprisingly did a land drop each turn against other control based, dropping B2B each time and ALWAYS find a way to win a counterwar with only 27 card to pitch on Forces. He probably did a CB then simoultaneously reveal the right card on top to activate it... Is insane to think that he could did always a land AND find countertop AND drop a B2B AND win a counterwar by Forces AND at the same time find a finisher to win WITHOUT the Propaganda backup.

[Shawon]

Has anyone tried U-storage lands yet? I've been trying them recently. Yeah, they're not very good with B2B in play, but the storage lands provide such a huge mana advantage when you don't have B2B. They're really helpful when you're not seeing lands after turn 4, so you don't have to hope you keep topdecking lands every turn. Also, they're really helpful when you want to cast a few spells and still have counter backup, especially after an EOT-FoF or you just drew 3 from Visions. So far, I run 2 Dreadship Reef and 1 Calciform Pools (better to have both cards in case of Pithing Needle).

[idraleo]

storage lands is unviable since you play Ancestral Vision, then you' ll not use them until turn 5-6 because this deck go most of the time tapped out in the early turns to handle on opponent threats or to did some Vedalken-Propaganda-B2B-Powder Keg. Moreover, what this deck doesn' t nedd is to run any lands that goes under Wasteland because it can' t afford well some missed land drop, and obv saw his land wasted...

[Shawon]

...storage lands is unviable since you play Ancestral Vision...

So you're telling me storage lands are not viable because of Visions? Really, how? The only situation where I think that's really true is you keep a hand with only storage lands. I'm pretty sure that if you have 2 land in your opener, one of them is going to be an Island.


then you' ll not use them until turn 5-6 because this deck go most of the time tapped out in the early turns to handle on opponent threats or to did some Vedalken-Propaganda-B2B-Powder Keg.

Really? That doesn't sound like MUC to me. From my experience, in the early game I'm often keeping mana to counter spells. Anyway, answer me this: even if I won't use them until turns 5-6, how do storage lands prevent me from casting any of those cards you mentioned? Furthermore, the deck doesn't win by turns 5-6, so having a great amount of mana in the long game is greatly beneficial. With storage lands, I can't really see how you'll lose the late game once you get there.


Moreover, what this deck doesn' t nedd is to run any lands that goes under Wasteland because it can' t afford well some missed land drop, and obv saw his land wasted...

All I can say here is that I'm not scared of Wasteland, but I may be biased here, because I run 25 lands.

[Psyphris]

There is no reason to run storage lands in this deck. Your own Back to basics will ruin them, they can be killed with wasteland (which might not seem like a big deal to you but believe me you will not get much use out of them). I don't see why you would even want them to be honest, at the end of pretty much every turn MUC will either impulse or fact or fiction or will be tapped out from countering/shackling.

Just my thoughts.

EDIT: Playing storage lands in a bad meta game would be good, like when I play with my friends, but playing it against tier 1 decks isn't the best idea.

[Shawon]

There is no reason to run storage lands in this deck. Your own Back to basics will ruin them, they can be killed with wasteland (which might not seem like a big deal to you but believe me you will not get much use out of them). I don't see why you would even want them to be honest, at the end of pretty much every turn MUC will either impulse or fact or fiction or will be tapped out from countering/shackling.

Back to Basics in play does weaken the storage lands if they're not in play, but they won't always 'ruin' them if you have say one in play, with 2 or more storage counters, before B2B comes down. Besides, if B2B consistently clashes with the storage lands, you always run 1 or 2 storage lands.

[Psyphris]

There's no reason to run a card that does not mesh well with your deck. If I was playing any tier 1 deck and I drew: 2 island, 1 storage land, 3 misc counterspells, and 1 btb then I would have to consider a mullagin. I would need to get back to basics out but I would have a total of 2 usable lands afterwards if I didn't draw into any in 3 turns.

[Barsoom]

What do you guys think about the Mono-Blue Control deck posted on this (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/16190.html) article by Machinus on SCG?


”Mono-Blue Control,” Fahed Saleh
1st at Mol (58 players)

2 Morphling
3 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
4 Sower of Temptation
4 Counterspell
2 Echoing Truth
4 Fact or Fiction
2 Forbid
4 Force Spike
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
3 Back to Basics
2 Powder Keg
2 Vedalken Shackles
22 Island

Sideboard
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
3 Declaration of Naught
3 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt

Seems good, of course expecially against aggro decks; i'll test this kind of version for sure.

[Shawon]

Way way way too few land. How does he even support half the spells in his deck? Vedalken Shackles in a deck with 22 Islands? Forbid in a deck with only 4 draw spells? Oh, only 4 draw spells? Ancestral Visions may not be everyone's cake, but the guy could've at least also run TfK.

[Illissius]

Yeah that's a very weird deck. I like Sower of Temptations for the sideboard though.

[Barsoom]

You criticize, but he won a tournament of 58 people... or do you think was only luck?; i saw results, are you speaking about what results for so few islands, or "a very weird deck"?

[Kadaj]

Winning a tournament is not an automatic justification for one's choices. It does lend weight to one's ideas, but it doesn't mean they are infallible. At any rate, the major issues with that deck have already been pointed out. It runs way too few land, cards like Echoing Truth that are more or less awful in almost any application when compared to the alternatives, and has an identity crisis in attempting to run Kira and Sower in a deck that is supposed to be a control deck, not an aggro-control build.

Could it work? Potentially, but it would need much tweaking, and I suspect said tweaking would lead it largely towards what we've already arrived at in this thread except maybe with the Sowers in the main.

[Shawon]

Is there an updated list of MUC any different from the one on the opening post?

Side note: Just curious, are there any viable (close-to-viable) MUC lists that use Nevinyraal's Disk? I understand that such a list would probably be less optimal than the B2Bs version, but I was just curious, since I always find The Disk interesting (mainly because of its history).

EDIT: After some playing with the deck, I've really become comfortable with 25 lands, especially with 2 storage lands. Even with just 25 Islands, you hardly ever find yourself short on mana so your tempo remains consistent. From my experience playing this deck, you don't really ever achieve a threshold of mana, because even in the late game, you could still use all that extra mana to comfortably hardcast FoW/Foil when you really could use those cards you'd otherwise be pitching to FoW/Foil.

Here's my list for reference, MD at least:

// Lands
23 [CS] Snow-Covered Island
1 [TSP] Dreadship Reef
1 [TSP] Calciform Pools

// Creatures
2 [US] Morphling
1 [CHK] Meloku the Clouded Mirror

// Spells
4 [UD] Powder Keg
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [TSP] Ancestral Vision
4 [MM] Counterspell
4 [US] Back to Basics
4 [TE] Propaganda
4 [IN] Fact or Fiction
2 [PY] Foil
4 [AL] Force of Will

[Kadaj]

So, having played my build on the front page card for card in the Milford tournament yesterday here's what I learned:

1. The deck is very good. Seriously, whenever I played against anyone in testing I won comfortably. This was against Rg Sligh, GWB Survival, UGb Threshold (with Stifle+Waste), Affinity, Aggro Loam, and Ichorid. I also got into some pretty interesting long games with Landstill that I came out on top of largely because of Back to Basics.

2. I, on the other hand, am not very good. Well that's not really true, but I'm sure there were minor play-mistakes that cost me the match in the actual tournament against GWB Survival (he later made Top 4 at least, I'm not sure how he did once he got there) and one idiotic mulligan decision against Ichorid definitely cost me the match there too.

3. Metagaming is very important with this deck, in particular with the SB. If I had used common sense before building my SB I would've been infinitely better off. But, I didn't. As such, I didn't include Crypts and Phyrexian Furnaces, even though I knew there were 3 to 5 Ichorid players in the room and an equal number of Survival players (whom Furnace is the nuts against). I also included Chills, even though I was well aware there was only one person playing Goblins in the entire room. ^5s to me.

4. This deck is actually one of the few that has a solid chance game 1 against Ichorid. Propaganda is a beating because they largely have no way through it, and Back to Basics makes it so they literally can't win if you have Propaganda. With any sort of graveyard hate in games 2 and 3 you have what rather surprisingly amounts to a positive matchup.

5. Back to Basics is fucking nuts. Seriously, I know we were pretty much aware of this already, but the card is a nightmare for 90+% of Legacy decks to deal with. Run 4, you want them as often as possible, and you will want multiples too so that when they remove one it still isn't enough.

6. At least in this tournament, fetchlands would've sucked terribly. There were Stifles flying out of people's asses here. People went to the bathroom and instead of shitting out feces Stifles came sliding out. The middle tables in particular were loaded with people playing Stifle, which was amusing to watch, and probably slightly irregular in the grand scheme of things, but I saw multiple games won and lost on the back of Stifled fetchlands.

So yeah, I will be doing more testing and experimentation with this deck in the future, and hopefully will be attending many more tournaments with more success than I achieved in this one.

[DeathwingZERO]

I'm not entirely sold on attempting it myself, but has anybody thought about using Keiga in the deck if we see little to no spot removal in the metagame? It is 6 mana, which is more expensive than Pling or Meloku, but is already a 4 turn clock, and if not StP'd will take a creature from your opponent. Seems very handy vs things like Goyf, Dreadnought, Crusher, Terravore, and the like. Alongside another creature or Shackles/Propaganda, I think it might be worth looking into as a 1-2 of.

To give an idea of the metagame I am predicting to run into, I will assume:
1-2 Affinity/Goyfinity
1-2 Aggro Loam
1-2 Black Stax/MBC variants
1-2 StifleNought
2-3 Ichorid
2-6 Thresh (probably black or red variants, little to no white)
1-3 Landstill (UBGw and possibly UW or UR)
x mono-colored (elves, burn, etc)
1-2 TES (maybe?)
Various other stuff (Survival, Painter, other Established or DTB stuff)
Jank (Enchantress, bad Doran rock decks, etc)

[Lothian]

What do you guys think about the Mono-Blue Control deck posted on this (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/16190.html) article by Machinus on SCG?

Seems good, of course expecially against aggro decks; i'll test this kind of version for sure.

What a beauty !!!

It just should be called back to basics!

No brainstorm - totally overused imho
No fetch - the biggest hype too. losing life for nothing in control, stifle target, play 26 lands i.o. 22, therefore needing thinning to attain same number of threats
Not a single cantrip ! - drawing a .. drawing a .. You don't need cantrip if all your cards are threats (counter here ;)
Making Waste, blood moon (is is played?) useless
No drawing (hrr... FoF really?) but stealing critters and auto-countering targeted removal under Kira (StP, smother anyone) this is the ultimate Card Advantage
Costing close to 0 (except fow and some sb)

Being a MUC admirer, this is the most innovative meta-gamed version for years.

I wonder what it does against Ichorid tho

[Soulles]

What a beauty !!!

It just should be called back to basics!

No brainstorm - totally overused imho
No fetch - the biggest hype too. losing life for nothing in control, stifle target, play 26 lands i.o. 22, therefore needing thinning to attain same number of threats
Not a single cantrip ! - drawing a .. drawing a .. You don't need cantrip if all your cards are threats (counter here ;)
Making Waste, blood moon (is is played?) useless
No drawing (hrr... FoF really?) but stealing critters and auto-countering targeted removal under Kira (StP, smother anyone) this is the ultimate Card Advantage
Costing close to 0 (except fow and some sb)

Being a MUC admirer, this is the most innovative meta-gamed version for years.

I wonder what it does against Ichorid tho

Glad to see someone liking my deck :)

Good see that you understand the purpose of this version of MUC. Most people fail or failed to see that. It's the creature control that is fortified through Kira that makes this deck very strong. Both sower and Kira are a clock on their own. Which forces people to play creatures. Even if shackles resolves people could choose not to play a creature and wait to to draw answers for both morphiling and shackles.

I played a touarnment 2 weeks ago. 30 people , i ended up fourth. Lost to goblins. I had to mul to 4 at a score of 1-1 ;/ . It happens but oh well.

As for your Ichorid question. I play 4 cards mainboard to deal with tokens and 3 cards sideboard to deal with graveyard. All in all it's a very bad matchup for me. But you can always choose to play propaganda in the sideboard if your meta is infested with ichorid.

I know the list looks funny. But i am not a new tournament player. I played Mono blue in every tournament for the last 2 years. I never switched decks. I tested many cards. From legacy's allure to curse of chains. I never test in MWS, always on tournaments. Because there people decide how to make their plays, their you can bluff, their you can test the true strengh of your cards you add and so on.

This list comes after 2 years of work and tournament play and i am very happy with it now. It doesn't beat everything but it sure brings a good fight!

[Arne]

Hey Fahed,

I really like your deck. Ever since I saw it on benelegacy, I was hooked.
Last sunday, I played at a local tournament with only 9 players and with a pretty conservative list. I went 3-2 and lost to a stiflenought/servant deck and to a UWBG Doran Folk deck.

I lost against that Doran deck because of his discard spells and to stiflenought because he had so much threats. Both decks contained Dark Confidant (a card you have to counter)

Now, I can see you win against stiflenought.. But what is your experience with decks that play a lot of discard. Decks like pox and the like. I have divert in my sideboard but it really didn't help me.

Anyone?

[Lothian]

Glad to see someone liking my deck :)

Sure I do !


Good see that you understand the purpose of this version of MUC. Most people fail or failed to see that. It's the creature control that is fortified through Kira that makes this deck very strong. Both sower and Kira are a clock on their own. Which forces people to play creatures. Even if shackles resolves people could choose not to play a creature and wait to to draw answers for both morphiling and shackles.

Thanks for the appreciation. I've been myself a fond MUC players for years now, although I would play any style but pure aggro (gob, elfes etc..).

So here we here all about Tarmo, which for a MUC player don't change much of the problem since a 2/2 can easily kill you, although tarmo clock make you dearly miss the 2 turns needed to control the whole board and spells.
So what's better than stealing that monster. And what's better than protect that robbery with a Kira shroud?

Now I can imagine 2 Tarmo and a geese in front of you. you have kira on your side and play Sower. You steal 1, you keep it on the defence, protect your Sower, and beat with your 2 flying without any problem.

That's pure class man ! The class of real blue mages, use other guys deck's power to your own advantage.


I played a touarnment 2 weeks ago. 30 people , i ended up fourth. Lost to goblins. I had to mul to 4 at a score of 1-1 ;/ . It happens but oh well.

Ho yeah, the famous gob match-up, the real test for MUC. I've been testing against vial gob white splash before GP Lille. And the deck is a pest, since nearly all cards is a must counter, especially vial and lackey obviously. I've noticed though that in the end it was better to never mull against it. and pray for the best. I wouldn't even force lackey, although I had Quicksand in sb. It's all about bluff indeed, and i was waiting for my first disk to clear the board. The game was all down to get to the first disk, then it was won or lost at that point.

MUC is not meant to win against gob anyway. But since it's not too much around, it's time for MUC to come back !


As for your Ichorid question. I play 4 cards mainboard to deal with tokens and 3 cards sideboard to deal with graveyard. All in all it's a very bad matchup for me. But you can always choose to play propaganda in the sideboard if your meta is infested with ichorid.

Good one, I forgot that echoing truth is the single best card against a token army. how sweet! and sure keg is good two for that. with 3 tormods and 3 needle, I assume that MU isn't that bad after all ;)


I know the list looks funny. But i am not a new tournament player. I played Mono blue in every tournament for the last 2 years. I never switched decks. I tested many cards. From legacy's allure to curse of chains. I never test in MWS, always on tournaments. Because there people decide how to make their plays, their you can bluff, their you can test the true strengh of your cards you add and so on.

Same here, I much prefer real play. Not only it's better for the bluff, much like poker (always keep your mana flooded islands in hand!) but a real meta is much much less full of goodies (how much for a thresh black splash?).

I played a MUC, Which was closer to the 98 world champion version with mishra (26 lands - 22 islands) and only 1 kill (rainbow efreet), all counter and disk. As such, fetch always looked ludicrous since I love my mana and i have losing stupid life. Same for brainstorm, i was palying impulse instead to get my disks quicker.

But now with your version, your clock is faster (more elegant) and the meta being really aggro (tarmo?) there's always something to steal around.


This list comes after 2 years of work and tournament play and i am very happy with it now. It doesn't beat everything but it sure brings a good fight!

Last tournament i played (ok ok, years ago now beforew GP Lille), i got 2nd out of 15. Losing to affinity - erayo in the 3rd too. I had cleared the board and controlling it all, but he had his Blinkmoth which I could block/kill against my mishras. He got me when he was 2. great game !

Well, anyway, I never was a really competitive player, but i know how to pilot a mono blue, to my opponent's despair. And your version is really well-thought and balanced. There's a lot of testing in there (Not like all those guys who can only tell you if your don't play 4-of, you must be a moron! Morons !!)

Once again, WELL DONE !!!

it's so hard to be excited about anything in Magic nowadays ;-)

[idraleo]

Holy crap, so you guys are sayin' that a 22 land version with no draw effects except for FoF and with the medium cmc of 3 is good to won something? kira+sower+shackles are redundant and useless at the same time, because the if someone had an answer to Shackles probably it will be an answer on Kira. Kira works well ONLY if you get a Sower on board, but it means to did 4 land drops with a decklist that doesn' t plays Brainstorms or Sensei's or any sort of deck thinning, you can' t did card advantage until turn 4 WITHOUT losing a land drop with 22 lands!! It is simply crazy!! Kira and Sower will probably be useful as a perfect pitch on FoW or buyback cards to Forbid. Also Forbid is insane because you did no card advantage, you can't buyback it if you got some useful card in hand so you are playng a bad cc3 counterspell that will do something interesting only on late game and only if you draw some useless late game card, such as Kira or Force Spike.

This decklist play bad cards to support some other bad cards, you kick off spells that gives you card advantage and card quality to put in some funny trick that became useles only if you play against some bad builded rg goyf deck. That's not "good against aggro decks", it is good ONLY against some aggro builds...

[Lothian]

Ok so let's assume you are a MUC player, so you know a bit about math

22 lands >>> 26 lands including fetch and and dual lands.

So here is you're ideal play.
Turn 1: polluted delta turned into a much invested underground sea, preparing ground for your special mega tech called EE..
in front, he plays a stupid wasteland which send your 50$ combo down to make sure you will reach thresh very soon...

How many land drops do you think you need to reach 4 and even reach 6 one day if you play morphling??

Here what matters is you play 22 lands which are basic, all produce blue un-wastable, un-stpable (mishra), un-blood moonable simply called: island

Each of your land drops are here to stay.

Sure you need to thin your deck when you play only 34 threats. Sure you need brainstorm and sensei to get what you need. So 26 lands + 4 brainstorm + 4 sensei = 26 threats ! 60 - (26 + 4 + 4)

So great !!!

This deck plays 38 threats

Sure you need some card advantage badly

And I see that great other special tech, hiding my fow turn 2 from a hymn, still losing 2 cards.

Me I play force spike


kira+sower+shackles are redundant

kira+sower is mega combo, avoiding 90% of creature removal in the format, making your 3 crea virtually unchecked (possibly the winning point, beating with your 2 x 2/2 flyer and defending with your stole critter Tarmo is Sooo good)

try to kill sower or kira with EE btw

Usually MUC has a mad fear of full-tap, always keeping 2 lands for counter.
But this version is more subtle. You play kira full-tap, opponent too happy to play his threat (critter?) which in turn you will steal with shackles or sower.

Making btw tarmo by far your best friend

B2B + force spike = it's your opponent who should be worried about his land drops !


because the if someone had an answer to Shackles probably it will be an answer on Kira

???

you must mean sower no?
6 stealing effect is better than 4 I guess


Kira works well ONLY if you get a Sower on board

Well, I would advice your opponent to deal with kira (2 removal spells) as quick as possible before sower shows up.


Kira and Sower will probably be useful as a perfect pitch on FoW

If you think it's perfect to pitch your best threats to fow, then stop playing MUC


you are playng a bad cc3 counterspell that will do something interesting only on late game and only if you draw some useless late game card, such as Kira or Force Spike.

I personally prefer dissipate in that slot. Forbid is the kind of card that make you recycle your extra islands in late game and see your opponent scoop in disgust

I would only question morphling here which looks like over-kill. May Soulles can explain the MU where it is a match breaker (against control?)


That's not "good against aggro decks", it is good ONLY against some aggro builds

hmm....

That Declaration of Naught in the board is so sweet! That's at last an answer to flashback, LftL, Storm

I don't see any combo win against this deck on full control mode

What I can see in that deck, is balance

It is a well thought and balanced build with numbers in cards (2 - 3 - 4 ofs) looking very good.

Obviously you need a good pilot behind it, it's not like burn :cool:

[ParkerLewis]

Ok so let's assume you are a MUC player, so you know a bit about math

22 lands >>> 26 lands including fetch and and dual lands.

So here is you're ideal play.
Turn 1: polluted delta turned into a much invested underground sea, preparing ground for your special mega tech called EE..
in front, he plays a stupid wasteland which send your 50$ combo down to make sure you will reach thresh very soon...

How many land drops do you think you need to reach 4 and even reach 6 one day if you play morphling??

Here what matters is you play 22 lands which are basic, all produce blue un-wastable, un-stpable (mishra), un-blood moonable simply called: island

Each of your land drops are here to stay.

Sure you need to thin your deck when you play only 34 threats. Sure you need brainstorm and sensei to get what you need. So 26 lands + 4 brainstorm + 4 sensei = 26 threats ! 60 - (26 + 4 + 4)

Depends on the build. The permanent-based build of MUC doesn't run fetches nor duals, but running it with only 22 lands would be completely wrong.



This deck plays 38 threats

Hm, no. A non-land card isn't a threat. A threat is something that will directly win the game.



kira+sower is mega combo, avoiding 90% of creature removal in the format, making your 3 crea virtually unchecked (possibly the winning point, beating with your 2 x 2/2 flyer and defending with your stole critter Tarmo is Sooo good)

try to kill sower or kira with EE btw

Usually MUC has a mad fear of full-tap, always keeping 2 lands for counter.
But this version is more subtle. You play kira full-tap, opponent too happy to play his threat (critter?) which in turn you will steal with shackles or sower.


6 stealing effect is better than 4 I guess

So Kira + Sower is a combo, fine. There are several problems with it though.
- first, by itself, Kira is just complete junk.
- second, I still don't really see how this combo is actually better than simply Shackles. You're commiting one card (Sower) to steal a creature, and one second card (Kira) to protect the whole thing. With Shackles, you would commit one card to steal the creature. Then you're free to use any counterspell you want to protect the whole thing, which would be the second card. Except this second card (a counterspell) is much more versatile and could also be used to counter anything else if the opponent doesn't try to get his creature back.
To sum it up, you're using Kira as a counterspell to protect the steal. Then why the hell would you not simply have an actual counterspell that still could protect the steal, but also answer anything else ?
- third, i don't see how the deck could ever need more than 4 steal effects total.

Hence, the deck doesn't need this "combo" (and doesn't want it).


Edit : actually, after thinking things through, it's even worse than that. Each of the two "steals" result from potential answers is :

Shackles steal :
- no removal in hand : you are 2-for-1'ing your opponent, spending one card to remove one of his (1), and using it for yourself (2). Great.
- targeted artifact removal on Shackles (ie Krosan Grip). Result : your opponent spent one card to deal with one of your cards. Pretty fair.
- mass removal like Deed. Result : you just 2-for-1'ed your opponent. Great.
- every targeted creature removal (on the stolen creature). Result : you just 2-for-1'ed your opponent, and you are ready to do it again.

Kira + Sower steal :
- no removal in hand : you are 2-for-2'ing your opponent, having spent two cards to remove one of his (1), and using it for yourself (2). Pretty fair. ADVANTAGE : SHACKLES.
- targeted artifact removal. No effect. ADVANTAGE : K+S.
- mass removal like Deed. Result : 2 for 2. Pretty fair. ADVANTAGE : SHACKLES.
- every targeted creature removal. Result : ineffective. You're somewhat 3-for-2'ing him, except he didn't have to pay the cost for his second card. Good, but not "straight 2-for-1" quality. ADVANTAGE : SHACKLES.

So, except against Krosan Grip, how is the "combo" better ? You've invested more cards, more mana, you can't exchange the stolen creature if a better one comes out, and all of this for no benefit, except you now have two additional 2/2 that you can't use to attack or block (unless you want to destroy the combo yourself).

[Lothian]

Ok, looks like a more constructive comment


Hm, no. A non-land card isn't a threat. A threat is something that will directly win the game.

Sure, but MUC doesn't have a threat that wins directly the game. It's all about getting board advantage at one point and keep it with counter. A 2 clock is enough (Mishra)

I would consider a threat as a must-counter or counter. you would agree that a good MUC player knows what to counter and when. It's not I counter every single spell.
counterbalance is a threat. Brainstorm & sensei not.


So, except against Krosan Grip, how is the "combo" better ? You've invested more cards, more mana, you can't exchange the stolen creature if a better one comes out, and all of this for no benefit,

Krosan grip. hmm.. just the best card against MUC. Do you think it's played...


except you now have two additional 2/2 that you can't use to attack or block (unless you want to destroy the combo yourself).

Well, then drop the combo indeed. If you cannot see the combo as a win condition.

2 additional flying 2/2 = 4/4 flying on the beat. defend with your stolen creature. You WON

If a better creature comes along use ............
SHACKLES

[Soulles]

So, except against Krosan Grip, how is the "combo" better ? You've invested more cards, more mana, you can't exchange the stolen creature if a better one comes out, and all of this for no benefit, except you now have two additional 2/2 that you can't use to attack or block (unless you want to destroy the combo yourself).

You are either very clueless or your meta plays only krosan grip as artifact hate lol.

Whatever, i never wanted anyone to discuss my deck and i never realized or thought i end up on starcitygames which i never read..so yeah guess how i found out?.

I play tournaments for fun and i usually do well at them. I think i seen some youtube movies of the worlds 2007 coverage. They asked one guy about his opnion about Legacy beeing on worlds. He disliked it , because he thinks that peopla are not innovative enough in this format and the format it self is not explored enough. So keep playing those counterbalances, tops, confidants and i keep try new things!

Anyway if you want to know something, feel free to PM me.

bye

[ParkerLewis]

You are either very clueless or your meta plays only krosan grip as artifact hate lol.

Whatever, i never wanted anyone to discuss my deck and i never realized or thought i end up on starcitygames which i never read..so yeah guess how i found out?.

I play tournaments for fun and i usually do well at them. I think i seen some youtube movies of the worlds 2007 coverage. They asked one guy about his opnion about Legacy beeing on worlds. He disliked it , because he thinks that peopla are not innovative enough in this format and the format it self is not explored enough. So keep playing those counterbalances, tops, confidants and i keep try new things!

Anyway if you want to know something, feel free to PM me.

bye

Hi,

i'll disregard the part about "innovating", especially how it's not putting your ideas in a good light.

Anyway, please don't take my comments in a personal way. They weren't even directly addressed to you as I was mostly answering to Lothian. As the list ended up here, the point is to discuss it, and it will be, that's all :)

If you want, just see that as a consequence of your good result : people got interested into the individual card choices of the list, and are now trying to debate whether these could indeed be optimal or not. If you're not interested in the discussion, you don't have to follow it.

In any case, remember that nobody (and certainly not me) is forcing you to change your deck or your way of playing : )


Sure, but MUC doesn't have a threat that wins directly the game. It's all about getting board advantage at one point and keep it with counter. A 2 clock is enough (Mishra)

I would consider a threat as a must-counter or counter. you would agree that a good MUC player knows what to counter and when. It's not I counter every single spell.
counterbalance is a threat. Brainstorm & sensei not.

Well, it's supposed to have a wincon, as every deck does. You can't always rely on stealing your opponent's ones. Otherwise, what will you do against any kind of combo player ? As you said, you can't counter everything, and counters only give you a few additonal turns before a storm combo player finds the protection he might want to wait for to go off (be it Vexing Shusher, Orim's Chant, or whatever). Protection against which you can't do anything once it hits - meaning you're dead. You have to have a clock in your deck by yourself.


Krosan grip. hmm.. just the best card against MUC. Do you think it's played...

yes, it is. Of course. AND ESPECIALLY because it's "the best card against MUC", since my opponent only has a limited number of those, and he already wants to play them on Propaganda, or B2B, ie permanents that are already very troublesome for him, it's not a problem for Shackles to be able to be hit by Krosan Grip. If he hits the Shackles, well that means that he didn't destroy the B2B with it. If he destroys the Propaganda with it, then the Shackles is still there.


2 additional flying 2/2 = 4/4 flying on the beat. defend with your stolen creature. You WON

But this is even worse... So you're attacking with 4 power worth of creatures and defending with what you stole. What did this cost you ? Two cards, one of which is completely unusable when it's by itself (Kira). One Morphling alone takes care of the attacking, defending and protecting himself.

Then you can steal the opp creature with one of the 3 to 4 Shackles in the MB. Yet again, two cards used, but with a much better result, as you now can attack with morphling AND the stolen card, knowing you'll just untap your morphling for defense if needed.

[Masque]

Truly, before I played with the deck, I would've been a hater too, but now after playing with the build for a while, I can definitely say Kira + Sower/Shackles = while not MVP, very good. True, the deck is not perfect, though it depends on your playstyle to what you want to add and subtract, I started with his list that I saw on SCG, started playing with it, tinkering, and now, with a list I am comfortable with, still the Kiras and the Sowers have stayed in the whole way through.

The ability to actually attack before a Morphling or a Meloku can come down is handy, and the Sowers by themselves can be incredibly disrupting, even without protection. Kira by itself is not entirely useless, being a 2/2 Flier that protects itself, allowing it to swing. With six cards that steal, it also becomes valuable in the end, when they thought it wasn't worth getting rid of it. The Kiras and Sowers are a nice piece of innovation, and having played with the deck, I can safely say thank you for innovating this lovely set of cards and having it come to my attention.

[idraleo]

The point is not that Kira+Sower is a slow 2 pieces combo, but that previous and "less innovative" MUC builds did as well as this (and better) playing only Shackles, so we' re talking about playing 3 or 4 Shackles to stole critters or playing a sort of minicombo to try to did something similar.

Kira's dedklists waste 7 slots to did what any MUC decklist did with only 3 of them. And it did it cutting the draw effects. IT plays no AV, no fetches + Brainstorm, no TfK. The big point is that you' re gonna play creatures with a 2/2 body that costs you 3 and 4 mana with a 22 lands back up. Sometimes i get screwed playing 24 lands and doing a first turn AV, so let me say that play only 22 lands is something that sounds hilarious.

And please, stop saying that Kira is a great backup, it is completely useless if u don' t get a fast Sower, that means casting it on turn 4 (even without losing a land drop). I don' t want to know what could happen to this decklist when it faces ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh or other decks that packs a 4 off Daze. The ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh MU, wich normally is fairly good, became obv worst, because they slows you with Daze and even if you got Kira on board and play Sower to stole some Goyf they could simply fuck your combo by putting a mere Stifle on Sower's CiP ability.

Oh, and how good is your Kira and your Sowers against manlands? Have you ever faced Landstill in your lifetime? How could you stop 2 Mishra's attacking you? Probably you did a great chumpblock on they, wasting 2 creatures and 2 turns + 7 mana to cast it.

How could you not scoop to Deadguy? You have no backup from discard spells (no Brainstorms, no AV) and you' re forced to counter Sinkholes and Vindicate on your lands to avoid manascrew problems, it makes me simply lol.

[Masque]

The point is not that Kira+Sower is a slow 2 pieces combo, but that previous and "less innovative" MUC builds did as well as this (and better) playing only Shackles, so we' re talking about playing 3 or 4 Shackles to stole critters or playing a sort of minicombo to try to did something similar.

Kira's dedklists waste 7 slots to did what any MUC decklist did with only 3 of them. And it did it cutting the draw effects. IT plays no AV, no fetches + Brainstorm, no TfK. The big point is that you' re gonna play creatures with a 2/2 body that costs you 3 and 4 mana with a 22 lands back up. Sometimes i get screwed playing 24 lands and doing a first turn AV, so let me say that play only 22 lands is something that sounds hilarious.

And please, stop saying that Kira is a great backup, it is completely useless if u don' t get a fast Sower, that means casting it on turn 4 (even without losing a land drop). I don' t want to know what could happen to this decklist when it faces ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh or other decks that packs a 4 off Daze. The ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh MU, wich normally is fairly good, became obv worst, because they slows you with Daze and even if you got Kira on board and play Sower to stole some Goyf they could simply fuck your combo by putting a mere Stifle on Sower's CiP ability.

Oh, and how good is your Kira and your Sowers against manlands? Have you ever faced Landstill in your lifetime? How could you stop 2 Mishra's attacking you? Probably you did a great chumpblock on they, wasting 2 creatures and 2 turns + 7 mana to cast it.

How could you not scoop to Deadguy? You have no backup from discard spells (no Brainstorms, no AV) and you' re forced to counter Sinkholes and Vindicate on your lands to avoid manascrew problems, it makes me simply lol.
You seem to be the most doubting, or 'doubtingist', to make up a word, why don't you try the deck out for yourself and let us know what you find out?

[Kadaj]

You seem to be the most doubting, or 'doubtingist', to make up a word, why don't you try the deck out for yourself and let us know what you find out?

See, this doesn't work. I don't need to test Kira to tell you it's awful. It's a 2/2 for 3 that does... well, nothing. Or at least, nothing that couldn't be done better by more versatile and overall stronger cards. Is Sower potentially serviceable? Sure, but it's not so fragile that it requries Kira to make it good, and as Idraleo pointed out, it can't deal with manlands at all.

I have tested Sower to some extent and didn't like it within this framework. I do have it in some other decks, but it doesn't really pull its weight within MUC as its currently designed.

And yes I realize the above post wasn't directed at me, but I feel the need to point this stuff out anyway.

[Masque]

See, this doesn't work. I don't need to test Kira to tell you it's awful. It's a 2/2 for 3 that does... well, nothing. Or at least, nothing that couldn't be done better by more versatile and overall stronger cards. Is Sower potentially serviceable? Sure, but it's not so fragile that it requries Kira to make it good, and as Idraleo pointed out, it can't deal with manlands at all.

I have tested Sower to some extent and didn't like it within this framework. I do have it in some other decks, but it doesn't really pull its weight within MUC as its currently designed.

And yes I realize the above post wasn't directed at me, but I feel the need to point this stuff out anyway.
I get where you're coming from, but, respectfully, I have been playing with Kira for a little while here, and I think it's not as dead as it seems, which, just by looking at the list, is admittedly pretty dead. Though, decklists do talking much more than just me spouting stuff, and being new here and all, let me just show you what I'm running.

Lands: 22
22 - Island

Creatures: 8
4 - Sower of Temptation
2 - Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
2 - Morphling

Non-Creatures: 30
4 - Fact or Fiction
3 - Impulse
4 - Force of Will
4 - Counterspell
2 - Force Spike
3 - Spell Snare
3 - Back to Basics
3 - Propaganda
2 - Powder Keg
2 - Vedalken Shackles

Sideboard:
4 - Stifle
2 - Hydroblast
2 - Blue Elemental Blast
3 - Tormod's Crypt
1 - Propaganda
1 - Powder Keg
2 - Chalice of the Void

I definitely thought that there wasn't enough card drawing, but without fetches, Impulse beats out Brainstorm. I also like Spell Snare a lot more than Force Spike. And main deck Propaganda has worked out well for me, helping slow down Goblins, Ichorid, etc, all the virtues and vices of this particular enchantment have already been discussed. And Kadaj, I do agree with what you said above though. Back to Basics is MVP, even though I don't run four.

[FredMaster]

3 is the right number for Back to Basis Maindeck, I agree.

Thoughts:
- How random are 2 Force Spike?
- I strongly dislike Kira. It doesn't do anything on it's own. And I wouldn't want to tap myself out for it on turn three.

[Masque]

3 is the right number for Back to Basis Maindeck, I agree.

Thoughts:
- How random are 2 Force Spike?
- I strongly dislike Kira. It doesn't do anything on it's own. And I wouldn't want to tap myself out for it on turn three.

They're random, I will admit. But I don't really have a clue what to slot in there. If anything, I'd probably throw another Spell Snare and Impulse in. And I guess Kira comes down to a person's taste.

[Shawon]

Change the 2 random Force Spike to Propaganda #4 and B2B #4. B2B and Propaganda too useful to cut, regardless of Impulse in the deck.

[idraleo]

Oh Jesus, why anyone did anything to stop those horde of n00bish decks? You and your friends took what MUC is and start kicking it in the ass. Those last decklist have no sense, you did the final senseless decision of playing BOTH Kira, Sower AND Shackles!!! And you ever face the game playing 22 lands!! Finally you added Impulse, but you' re still playing an unrelevant number of lands, so Impulses will be most of the times a cc2 spell that founds you the 3rd/4th land. You still waste 6 slots to did what Shackles did by theyrself. If you love Kira and Sower, wich is completely out of this deck, plz open a thread on New and Development on your Aggrocontrollish-Kiracomboish decklist but plz stop, stop, stop to kick this thread in the face T_T

[Barsoom]

Stop insulting the others; this deck is not noobish, it won a 52men tournament. If you don't like the deck there is no reason to flame who run it; someone can run every fucking deck he wants.
And this is not kicking the thread in the ass, this version is MUC, only 6 cards changes, it's MUC with Kira and Sower inside, it deserves to stay like the other.

[idraleo]

A single tournament means nothing relevant. I' m sure that if we could read the report, we' ll saw that he hits most of the times good mu by theyrself, and that he probably won' t mulligan so much or have difficulty to get 4 consecutive land drops.

Everybody still miss the big point, that is not Kira or Sower, but that those guys PLAYS 22 LANDS and is avoiding from 1 page to explain why they do it, because if they play 6 more sorcery spell i wanna know how did they do a land drop each turn from turn 1 to turn 4 without any Brainstorm, AV, TfK or other manipulation spell!

Shawon last adds 3 impulses but he is still playing 22 lands. Are seriously saying that is normal to cut lands in a deck that can' t miss land drops to play a 4cc sorcery spell?

[Clark Kant]

That's no reason to not give constructive suggestions.

I agree with you that 22 Island is too low, and Force Spike/Impulse are probably not optimal.

But there is nothing wrong with running Sower of Temptation. Shackles is slow and can't take big dudes early on. Being able to steal them is nice.

I'm not a fan of Kira myself, but if you're a willing to up the number of creatures that can't protect themselves, I think Kira would be fantastic card.

Of course, I don't think 4 Sower is enough creatures to justify 2 Kira.

I would probably supplement them with 2 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir if I was going to run Kira. Kira + Teferi + Sower = Sex.

So to be productive...

I think that list above should go....

-2 Force Spike
+2 Island

-3 Impulse
-1 Random Card
+4 Ancestral Visions

and if you want to play 2 Kira, consider making room for 2 Teferi too.

[Masque]

That's no reason to not give constructive suggestions.

I agree with you that 22 Island is too low, and Force Spike/Impulse are probably not optimal.

But there is nothing wrong with running Sower of Temptation. Shackles is slow and can't take big dudes early on. Being able to steal them is nice.

I'm not a fan of Kira myself, but if you're a willing to up the number of creatures that can't protect themselves, I think Kira would be fantastic card.

Of course, I don't think 4 Sower is enough creatures to justify 2 Kira.

I would probably supplement them with 2 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir if I was going to run Kira. Kira + Teferi + Sower = Sex.

So to be productive...

I think that list above should go....

-2 Force Spike
+2 Island

-3 Impulse
-1 Random Card
+4 Ancestral Visions

and if you want to play 2 Kira, consider making room for 2 Teferi too.
Hm, I have to agree with the Force Spike change. But I don't honestly like Ancestral Visions. Thanks for at least an honest attempt at helping. And Teferi might be good.... I'll have to test. Thanks.

[Lothian]

Hm, I have to agree with the Force Spike change. But I don't honestly like Ancestral Visions. Thanks for at least an honest attempt at helping. And Teferi might be good.... I'll have to test. Thanks.

I wouldn't agree about force spike.

This is exactly what this deck is all about.

You don't counter (fow) or impeach creature, you steal them

You don't cut force spike because you play poker. And you play B2B. And you try to keep 1 floating mana so opponent thinks twice before going full tap.
Force spike is countering any turn2 play from the opponent (hymn or any nasty stuff), and doesn't lose you your land drop (daze), so you're ready to counter following turn again.

22 lands gives you 2 lands per opening hand. You don't impulse for more mana. you just draw mana.

The philosophy of the deck is blue. You deceive your opponent constantly

And discussion for kira+sower combo is not really relevant since after sb, this deck gets back to full control. But with the current meta, it's probably better to mb sower than the opposite

Well anyway. it's an innovative deck, and I'll try it.

Now if you want to go back to cut this cut that and end up with a classic list you've been discussing for last 30 page, please do.

[Shawon]

22 lands gives you 2 lands per opening hand.

I'm pretty sure that is false, and even if it were true, that's horrible for the Kira+Sower list, actually that's a horrible start for any MUC deck. You want 3 lands on average in your opener. With 2 lands in your opener, you have two turns to see another land before you skip land drops. With 3 lands in your opener, you have 3 turns, and drawing 3 cards by then should ensure you a 4th land drop. That is why I run 25 lands.

[Clark Kant]

You don't cut force spike because you play poker. And you play B2B. And you try to keep 1 floating mana so opponent thinks twice before going full tap.
Force spike is countering any turn2 play from the opponent (hymn or any nasty stuff), and doesn't lose you your land drop (daze), so you're ready to counter following turn again.

Fine, play 2 Force Spike.

But don't skimp on the land. This is MUC. If it doesn't make it's land drops, it can't play most of it's cards.

All it's best cards cost 4 mana or more.

I never find myself mana flooded with this deck. I want every island I can get my hands on.

And also, the decks needs actual card draw before FoF.

Visions is a godsend for this deck. The games go on long enough that you always draw three cards off of it, all for just one mana.

[wmagzoo7]

In a deck like MUC I think, as most people have stated that the land count should definitely be above 22 and most likely around 24-26 to insure enough lands. The list I have recently been playing runs 25, and is one of the 3 creature lists, similar to those posted before. A question I have for everyone as a whole who plays the deck, in testing or seriously as their main deck choice, is Powder Keg better than Cryptic Command. From my experiences in Type 2 and Extended, with blue decks such as Previous level Blue or Faeries that both run Ancestral Visions and Cryptics, where does Powder Keg fit in. Keeping it at 1-2 makes the most sense because you play a lot of 3 drops (B2b Propaganda, Shackles) but it still doesn't seem to do enough compared to what Cryptic can do, in being a clutch topdeck or early game hoser. My last debatable slot that I have been using but not really liking is Foil compared to any other counterspell as a 2 of. Foil can definitely be clutch but like others have said the lands are very important and losing one early game can really be a burden. Other than that I am enjoying playing this deck and annoying people on MWS with the slow pace but overwhelming amount of answers in the deck.

[Masque]

A question I have for everyone as a whole who plays the deck, in testing or seriously as their main deck choice, is Powder Keg better than Cryptic Command.
Quite honestly, I think it is. It blows up Nimble Mongeese, Goblin Piledrivers or anything pro blue, wrecks Affinity, blasts Warren tokens, and Bridge tokens, can be used to blow up Chrome Moxen and Mox Diamonds, Aether Vials, etc. It's a good answer to a lot of things (Namely pro-blue, and quick Goblin-looking things.) that the deck has trouble answering otherwise.

[wmagzoo7]

makes sense to me. I was trying out keg in the board but yeah it is good at killing the little stuff in the turns before your counters come online. I guess I will have to try to fit cryptic in another spot because I didn't realize how good keg is.

[Jason]

Quite honestly, I think it is. It blows up Nimble Mongeese, Goblin Piledrivers or anything pro blue, wrecks Affinity, blasts Warren tokens, and Bridge tokens, can be used to blow up Chrome Moxen and Mox Diamonds, Aether Vials, etc. It's a good answer to a lot of things (Namely pro-blue, and quick Goblin-looking things.) that the deck has trouble answering otherwise.

Don't forget it blows up manlands too. Keg for 0 or 1 is huge in almost every game. I actually played a mirror match and set it at 5 to blow up his Morphling when (and if) it came down. I tweaked the deck to only run 3 right now and I feel like I regret it every time I play.

[Jason]

On a side note, I was a hater of Rainbow Efreet on some of my previous posts, but I finally recognize its importance. It should be talked about in the same respect as Morphling and Meloku. For everyone who was like me and does not believe Rainbow Efreet is awesome, I urge you to seriously give it a try - it will rock your world.

[sadface]

A question I have for everyone as a whole who plays the deck, in testing or seriously as their main deck choice, is Powder Keg better than Cryptic Command? From my experiences in Type 2 and Extended, with blue decks such as Previous level Blue or Faeries that both run Ancestral Visions and Cryptics, where does Powder Keg fit in? Keeping it at 1-2 makes the most sense because you play a lot of 3 drops (B2B, Propaganda, Shackles) but it still doesn't seem to do enough compared to what Cryptic can do, in being a clutch topdeck or early game hoser.

Powder Keg only blows up artifacts and creatures - enchantments are left untouched. In other words, your only 3cc permanent that is affected by the kegs is Vedalken Shackles. That's only 2 (3? 4?) out of 60 cards. Your game-breaking Propagandas and Back to Basics will still be on the table when the dust settles.

[asdasd71]

what do you think of this deck:

Plain control+

2 sensei
3 counterbalance

4 painter's servant
2 fabricate

4 trinket mage
2 grindstone

this im thinking about:
[3 ancient tombs]
[1 academy ruins]

[undone]

Honest question. Has splash green for goyf been brought up. It makes alot of the aformentioned mus VERY good (goblins being one of them) as oposed to being so so.

[Shawon]

Honest question. Has splash green for goyf been brought up. It makes alot of the aformentioned mus VERY good (goblins being one of them) as oposed to being so so.

How so? Since we're talking theoretics...

Splashing green for Tarmogoyf defeats the purpose of Back to Basics. How is Tarmogoyf any better than MD Propaganda and SB BEBs/Hydros?
Disregarding those cards, how do we get Tarmogoyf big enough to stall Goblins? I can't speak for everyone else's build, but mine runs 0 fetchlands and 0 Brainstorm/Impulse; how can I use Goyf to significantly stall Goblins, and be safe from Incinerator/Weirding?

[idraleo]

How so? Since we're talking theoretics...

Splashing green for Tarmogoyf defeats the purpose of Back to Basics. How is Tarmogoyf any better than MD Propaganda and SB BEBs/Hydros?
Disregarding those cards, how do we get Tarmogoyf big enough to stall Goblins? I can't speak for everyone else's build, but mine runs 0 fetchlands and 0 Brainstorm/Impulse; how can I use Goyf to significantly stall Goblins, and be safe from Incinerator/Weirding?

Agree on all points ^^

[SuckerPunch]

The day MUC splashes blue just to play Tarmogoyf is the day that I will agree that Tarmogoyf deserves to be banned from the format.

It has no evasion, no ability to pump itself, can be chumped all day long, and is off color.

Why not just play Wake Thrasher. If you want a Goyf type beater, it's atleast on color.

[idraleo]

Deep-Sea Kraken fits better than Goyf here...

[ParkerLewis]

The day MUC splashes blue just to play Tarmogoyf is the day that I will agree that Tarmogoyf deserves to be banned from the format.

Don't worry about that. MUC already splashes blue for Powder Keg.

[Poron]

the day that tarmogoyf will be banned from the format will be late anyway.

[Shimster]

@ Kadaj:

I am testing MUC for several months (as far as I remember I started during March) and I've fallen in love with the permanent based lists. I am of the opinion that 57 cards are fixed and should not be changed:

// Lands
24 Island

// Creatures
1 Rainbow Efreet
2 Morphling

// Spells
4 Powder Keg
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Propaganda
4 Back to Basics
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Ancestral Vision

The three open slots really rack my brains. I am not sold on Foil, as there is little to no Fastcombo or Goblins floating around in my area.

While I tested Impulse, Think Twice, Ophidian (yeah, I know :laugh:), a combination of 2 Jace Beleren and an additional Island convinced me. Jace is a house against Landstill (important metagame factor) and lands aren't that bad, either:

// Lands
25 Island

// Creatures
1 Rainbow Efreet
2 Morphling
2 Jace Beleren

// Spells
4 Powder Keg
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Propaganda
4 Back to Basics
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Ancestral Vision

[Kadaj]

I am pretty much of the same mind. The slot that is Foil in my published list is really the only slot I consider "loose". The rest of the deck has been tested ad nauseum, by myself and other people, and I'm more or less positive that those choices are as solid as they get. As far as what can actually go in the Foil slot, Jace Beleren might very well be good, as could be the 25th land. I would perhaps try a counterspell of some sort in that slot, but I don't think Jace is necessarily a bad choice given the metagame you've outlined.

[Shimster]

Some suggestions regarding the three loose slots:

3 Ponder - Two cantrips substitute one land, so you're virtually playing more than 25 Islands. Along with 4 Ancestral Visions, you've got 7 1st turn drops.

3 Sensei's Divining Top - Like Ponder, but way more sustainable.

2 Dust Bowl + 1 whatever - I don't know whether Dust Bowl is needed or not, but it is another out against Landstill. Winmore? Obviously.

2 Spell Snare, 1 Island - I am not sold on playing that much counterspells without any library manipulation. But that's just me and my experience with Solidarity respectively.

[Jason]

You could try Mana Leak in the three spots. Often they will be a hard counter, and if they aren't, they will destroy a deck with either B2B being in play or the threat of B2B coming down on your next turn because usually the opponent will need to tap 3 nonbasic lands to allow the spell to go through.

[Kitchen Table Hero]

I think its important to run a counterspell in the foil slot, becouse if it gets taken up by some business spell that would mean that the deck wouly only be running 8 counters total (4 counterspell, 4 FoW).
Personally Ive tried Mana Leak, but have switched to Dissipate. Sure, costs 1 more, but its hard and can screw with overconfident decks that dont care if their stuff goes to the yard (loam, welder, ichorid ect).

[SuckerPunch]

@ Kadaj:

I am testing MUC for several months (as far as I remember I started during March) and I've fallen in love with the permanent based lists. I am of the opinion that 57 cards are fixed and should not be changed:

// Lands
24 Island

// Creatures
1 Rainbow Efreet
2 Morphling

// Spells
4 Powder Keg
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Propaganda
4 Back to Basics
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Ancestral Vision

The three open slots really rack my brains.

Is Fact or Fiction really an absolute 4 of? I think 3 Fact or Fiction work just fine. 3 Powder Keg should also be fine.

As for the open slots, here are other possibilitiess that no one has brought up yet...

1-2 Capsize - It's nice playing some bounce to deal with any threats that slip through and annoy you. Capsize has the bonus of being usable ad nauseum.

Negate/Mana Leak - I am really not as to which is the superior of the two, but both are solid counters.

1cc card that counters spells with 2cc.

Silent Arbiter/Overbeing of Myth - The first is a great way to stabilize against horde decks once Propaganda's effect wears of int he late game. The second is a solid blocker that's also a Phyrexian Arena.

Control Magic/Sower of Temptation - all around solid in an aggro meta

a 3rd Veldalken Shackles - It's still good against any nongoyf creatures and even Goyfs that show up in the mid game or later.

[Kadaj]

Is Fact or Fiction really an absolute 4 of? I think 3 Fact or Fiction work just fine. 3 Powder Keg should also be fine.

Yes, Fact or Fiction is an absolute 4 of. They get better and better the more of them in your deck you have, as chaining Facts is just stupid, and will win you the game unless the matchup you're in is just hopeless, or something to that effect. I had a post earlier in the thread which explained the reasoning behind FoF needing to be a 4 of, I'll see if I can find it.

Powder Keg is too good against just about anything and everything not to be a 4 of. It's our early-game defense against Aggro, it kills Mongeese against Thresh, is ridiculous against Affinity, and so on and so forth. It's too versatile and overall strong not to run as a 4 of, especially when it's even solid against control, like Landstill.

As far as the open slots go, I'm fiddling with a 25th land and 2 Spell Snares, along with a few other less standard configurations, and when I know more I'll share my findings here.

[Masque]

Any thoughts on Threads of Disloyalty?

[Kitchen Table Hero]

Any thoughts on Threads of Disloyalty?

3 in the SB, always. Its become ever better with the current Dreadnought obsession.

[Jason]

I'm not a huge fan of Threads of Disloyalty. Shackles is better; if you are scared of Dreadnought, Powder Keg for 1 or Engineered Explosives for 1 can take care of that (note on the EE: I do not run fetches; I used to have one in the sideboard as an extra Mongoose/Token killer in addition to the 4 Powder Keg).

Plus, Teferi can wreck Dreadnought :smile:

[blacklotus3636]

Why would anyone bother to play the standard control everything mono blue deck in legacy? Its obvious that its near impossible and unnecessary to do that. All you want to do is disrupt your opponent enough to do something broken like dropping darksteel colossus into play. Here is what I would run:

4 FOW
4 counterspell
4 vedalken shackles
4 polymorph/ proteus staff
4 ancestral vision
4 standstill
4 counterbalance
4 sensei's divining top
1 darksteel colossus
4 chrome mox
4 mishra's factory
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
11 islands

You have just enough countermagic to keep someone off balance long enough to land a shackles, counterbalance or colossus. Mox allows turn 1 standstill, turn 2 shackles and a quicker polymorph into colossus. Contrary to popular belief mono blue does care about speed because decks like goblins can smash you a new one if you wait more than a few turns to establish board position. The added amount of cheap draw allows you to use mox and force without worrying about card disadvantage and of course top+counterbalance is there to protect colossus and lock the board down after a shackles. The land count might be a bit high or in need of adjustment but I'm always sure to pack enough lands in a deck with moxen because if you have to use a mox for mana because you missed a land drop then it just makes more sense to add land. If you manage to cut a few things trinket mage would be a good addition. Try it out

[Brehn]

Srsly, what?

1) Look at your curve
0cc: 31
1cc: 4
2cc: 12
3cc: 4/8
4cc: 4/0
5cc: 4
11cc: 1
What the hell do you want to counter with Balance? Lotus Petals?

2) How is a win condition that has to be protected from Swords to Plowshares, needs an active Vedalken Shackles and needs another card to be played (that also SUCKS without active Shackles) better than Morphling or anything else?

3) What do you do if you draw Darksteel Colossus?

4) How does this deck not lose to Goblins? Because it can swing with a 11/11 on turn 5 if it has a god draw of turn 2 Shackles, turn 3 activate, turn 4 Polymorph? Don't think so.

I don't need to try it out to see that it doesn't work.

[blacklotus3636]

Srsly, what?

1) Look at your curve
0cc: 31
1cc: 4
2cc: 12
3cc: 4/8
4cc: 4/0
5cc: 4
11cc: 1
What the hell do you want to counter with Balance? Lotus Petals?

2) How is a win condition that has to be protected from Swords to Plowshares, needs an active Vedalken Shackles and needs another card to be played (that also SUCKS without active Shackles) better than Morphling or anything else?

3) What do you do if you draw Darksteel Colossus?

4) How does this deck not lose to Goblins? Because it can swing with a 11/11 on turn 5 if it has a god draw of turn 2 Shackles, turn 3 activate, turn 4 Polymorph? Don't think so.

I don't need to try it out to see that it doesn't work.

Wow, the very definition of closed minded. If you will remember correctly type 2 used to play a very controllive version of mono blue with 15-18 counters but the real strength of the deck was not a shit load of counterspells, it was the raw power of shackles that made it good. This lesson is even more true in legacy where no tier 1 deck runs much counter magic because trying to control every aspect of the game with counters is unrealistic. The original counter heavy deck evolved into the staff/colossus deck because people saw that doing something busted was much better than trying to swing with a less than stellar creature on turn 30. The list I posted was rough I will admit but the concept is there and should be refined further for optimal results. I should also point out that after you polymorph/staff if you have a colossus in your hand you can stack your deck however you like meaning you could drop a charbelcher in there and win.
I also thought it was obvious that you get top into play before playing counterbalance thereby ensuring a chalice for 0,1 or possibly 2. I also suggested trinket mages for a toolbox or as an easy way to get top.

As for your comment on goblins, everyone knows mono blue will have a tough time against goblins but the best way to make it better is with a quick active shackles and faster clock like this one has.

How is staff/colossus better than morphling? I really hope your joking. The only thing morphling has that colossus does not is a set of mana intensive abilities that means it can't be plowed. That problem could be easily solved by chalice and/or counterbalance which is also good all around I hear. Aside from that colossus kills quicker and is really only vulnerable to 1 type of removal whereas morphling can be killed with mass removal and possibly targeted removal if you are low on mana. The point is not even colossus because with this build you could put almost ANY creature into play that you want for 3U. Why would you say morphling is better than that?

[Snip]

Learn to make whatever point you want to make without attacking other members. Warned for flaming. - Nihil Credo

[raharu]

Okay, what the hell are you doing? You're running 8 fetchlands without Brainstorms in a monocolored deck, you're running Counterbalance in the worst deck to play it in since 43 lands, 4 SDT, Chrome Mox in a control deck (card disadvantage = bad for control, for reasons that should already be known), you neglect to run the card that essentially makes the deck function (Back to Basics), playing Stanstill in a deck without anything resembling board control, 4 Shackles (this just looks incredibly wrong, 3 should be sufficent), and you intend to rely on a single copy of a single win condition to win the game in a format rife with Swords to Plowshares. Try it? Let me ask you a question: have you?

[SuckerPunch]

Proteus Staff is probably too slow but still probably worth trying because Collassus is a beast.

But I think you can use Proteus Staff far better than you currently are.

Being reliant on Shackles to power Staff is a bad approach. It eats up 5 mana and counts on your opponent playing an aggro deck.

Here are better targets for Proteus Staff...

4 Mishra's Factory - You're already playing this, good

3 Chimeric Idol - It's a very solid early blocker and attacker as well, safe from sorcery speed removal

3 Fairie Conclave/Blinkmoth Nexus

4 Standstill - By playing so many manlands, the deck suddenly can support Standstill which is fantastic. If you opponents take a while to break Standstill, just ramp up your land drops. The more landdrops out there, the better MUC fares.

Other changes your deck desperately needs to make...

4 Chalice of the Void - StP is the ONLY way for Collassus to be killed. Unfortunately, it's also the most popular removal spell there is. Chalice is not only 100% supported by MUC (unlike CB), but it's a great card all its own shutting down opposing Brainstorms and what not.

2 Darksteel Collassus - With chalice, you can't Brainstorm away and Darksteel Collassus you draw. This leaves two options... up your artifact count (Keg, Staff, Shackles, Chalice, Chrome Mox) to support Thirst for Knowledge, or opt to play 2 Darkstell Collassus. Either is a fine choice.

3 Thirst for Knowledge - See above.

4 Chrome Mox - See above.

2 Polymorph - It pitches to both Chrome Mox and FoW. It also gets our Dreadnought for less mana than Staff.

[DeathwingZERO]

I really hope you're kidding, Black, because the power of MUC in Standard wasn't Shackles, it was Meloku and Stalking Stones. Shackles was used almost exclusively as a stall tactic alongside the counter spells because the threats of the format would be able to seal games quickly if not dealt with. Most of the time if they couldn't shackle it, they'd have to bounce it.

And no, that did not evolve into Staff/Colossus. That deck was based on someone deciding that playing with Blinkmoth Nexus and activating it into a creature would mill into the one Darksteel Colossus. That was a mono blue combo deck with a lot of control elements to keep both Staff and DSC alive long enough to swing for two turns. Both decks played out incredibly different. There was no evolution from one to the other, they both happened to have a lot of counter magic to keep their sole threats alive.

And I agree with Brehn, there's a number of problems you have with that build. Here's some constructive criticism that I see (and by no means is it a personal attack, as I personally loved the combo):

1) You are playing 8 fetchlands and Ancestral Visions instead of Brainstorm. Brainstorm comes online turn 1, allows you to put back DSC if you draw into him accidentally, and allows you to respond to threats, as you've got very little answers to your opponent using StP, bounce, or just about anything in the 1cc range that you can't protect with Counterbalance. This goes to:

2) You are playing Counterbalance and not even coming close to the average curve that it's used for. You want primarily 1 and 2 covered, with a splash of 3 (Krosan Grip), otherwise you are opening yourself up to basically losing to opposing Counterbalance decks just trying to set up. Standstill won't cut it here, as it's used to draw into answers, which you technically only have 8 of, or threats, which you have 1. This leads to:

3) Why play Standstill in a deck with a combined threat/answer count of 12 (And I'm using this loosely, as Vedalken Shackes is hardly an answer to an opposing Goyf if you are playing this against Thresh or Aggro Loam, for instance). You will rarely draw into FoW or Counterspell, which is something you'd need once Standstill cracked if DSC actually hit the table. Speaking of Shackles, activated abilities seem to be how you'd win the game which leads into:

4) You have literally NO board-based outs to Pithing Needle. They can hit your Factory turn 1, and you scoop (or watch as they pummel you with creatures that get bigger much faster than Shackles can hit). You can either have opening hand FoW every game, or be forced to go to game 2 against a large number of decks starting to pack it in the main. This again comes back to a lack of answers, which comes back to:

5) The deck has terrible recovery speed if DSC is removed from play. Sure, it will shuffle back in, but now you have no way of finding your next Factory. You don't have Crucible for recursion, you don't have any draw (Ancestral, contrary to popular belief, is TERRIBLE when you NEED cards), and you don't have any dig/tutor effects. This comes back to:

6) Lack of threats. When testing the "standard" list of board control MUC, I played a number of pre-board games against both Ichorid and Goblins. If neither get an insane first or second turn, Propaganda will slow them down enough for you to dig into another, or Shackles. Shackles alone cannot stop a swarm army, nor can it stop a big hitter (Goyf, Grave-Troll, etc). You will get overrun, and it doesn't have to happen fast, as Colossus is still a 2 turn clock at best once he hits play.

So really, when you say there's no point in playing board control MUC, please realize it's the ONLY style of MUC that will win in this format. StifleNought uses Propaganda and EE, MUC uses Propaganda, B2B, Shackles, etc.....you NEED to protect yourself from aggro decks, and a lot of aggro control decks play with creatures Shackles just can't handle on it's own. The deck also needs dedicated draw, as Top is just modifying topdeck card quality, and Ancestral does nothing for 4 turns (which is often too late).

Hopefully that gives you a little less of a "close minded" reason as to why your deck in it's current build won't stand up to as much as you think.

[raharu]

Proteus Staff is probably too slow but still probably worth trying because Collassus is a beast.

But I think you can use Proteus Staff far better than you currently are.

Being reliant on Shackles to power Staff is a bad approach. It eats up 5 mana and counts on your opponent playing an aggro deck.

Here are better targets for Proteus Staff...

4 Mishra's Factory - You're already playing this, good

3 Chimeric Idol - It's a very solid early blocker and attacker as well, safe from sorcery speed removal

3 Fairie Conclave/Blinkmoth Nexus

4 Standstill - By playing so many manlands, the deck suddenly can support Standstill which is fantastic. If you opponents take a while to break Standstill, just ramp up your land drops. The more landdrops out there, the better MUC fares.

Other changes your deck desperately needs to make...

4 Chalice of the Void - StP is the ONLY way for Collassus to be killed. Unfortunately, it's also the most popular removal spell there is. Chalice is not only 100% supported by MUC (unlike CB), but it's a great card all its own shutting down opposing Brainstorms and what not.

2 Darksteel Collassus - With chalice, you can't Brainstorm away and Darksteel Collassus you draw. This leaves two options... up your artifact count (Keg, Staff, Shackles, Chalice, Chrome Mox) to support Thirst for Knowledge, or opt to play 2 Darkstell Collassus. Either is a fine choice.

3 Thirst for Knowledge - See above.

4 Chrome Mox - See above.

2 Polymorph - It pitches to both Chrome Mox and FoW. It also gets our Dreadnought for less mana than Staff.
Why would you want to play 7 manlands for Standstill? You're overlooking that the deck doesn't have the ability to clear the board, and, inasmuch, is a poor fit for Standstill.