[Deck] Imperial Painter [Archive] - Page 4

View Full Version : [Deck] Imperial Painter

Pages : 1 2 3 [4] 5 6

cwt1220

03-21-2010, 12:22 AM

I am in the exact position as Vesper, but my fall back deck is non-led dredge. I will know after SCG Philly.

-Chris-

Pastorofmuppets

03-21-2010, 09:37 AM

you might want to MD some mini-Ichorid hate, maybe like 1-2 Fanatic or something stupid like that. Also you'll need to keep an eye out for Zoo. I don't know if this deck can hold out for long enough but Kazuul might be tech. How does this deck beat Zoo, anyway?

Vesper Ghoul

03-21-2010, 08:37 PM

Played a blue splash today and I really liked it. My record didn't impress me but the blue splash did. I am open for suggestions and I will explain my choices and what I was thinking.

3 Figure of Destiny
4 Imperial Recruiter
2 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress (Anti Progenitus and agro reset almost worked on goblins today but he sided in blasts and blasted painter)
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Painter's Servant
4 Trinket Mage

3 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast

3 Chrome Mox
1 Engineered Explosives (with the added colors possible it can be a real advantage, can feasibly play for up to 5)
3 Grindstone (With the Trinket Mage I cut one)
3 Mox Diamond (this makes the splash so much easier, explosives better, and turn 1 city of traitors a decent play)
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
1 Island
7 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island

Board
1 Vexing Shusher
3 Blood Moon
1 Chalice of the Void (seemed good but I didn't use it once)
1 Meekstone (anti big dude)
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Trinisphere
1 Academy Ruins (I figured it was worth it)
3 Karakas (anti Iona also didn't use it or side it once and I played both U/B Animator and Dredge today)

sroncor1

03-21-2010, 09:59 PM

@Pastorofmuppets- I really do not think the deck needs dredge hate maindeck. we run moon effects a fast combo along with an efficient removal set. Adding a couple Mogg Fanatics really will not change our game one anyway. and i think the macabre and Blood Moons are more than enough for the deck. To be fair I can't remember the last time I lost a match to dredge. With the current configuration I am running the only match up that is really not winable is belcher, but since that deck sucks so is rough but moon effects really fuck up their day. You really have to board out the blast effects as they can bring them in and that is a scary thought. It is difficult to combo against them, but Figure kicks ass. I will not lie the match up is tough, but EE does help a lot. I think it is the only deck you may see at the top tables that is really a bad match up, although depending on the build reanimator is rough sometimes also.

@Vesper Ghoul- You may be running too many mana sources in your deck, even though you basically just switched the SSG with Mox Diamonds. How did those work for you. I would feel that 19 lands may be to low to reliably run them, but I have never tested so it is just theory. You should play some fetches. The shuffle effects are great then you can drop the Island and possible have a more solid mana base, that gives you the color you need. But maybe the Diamonds are doing that for you. I have thought about Chalice, and without extra one drops in your board it may be an awesome choice. The more artifacts that you throw at zoo the better. I would love to here about your matches. Lastly why the 3 Tormod's Crypt? Seems odd especially with 2 more in the board.

Vesper Ghoul

03-21-2010, 10:57 PM

@sroncor1 - The Crypts were actually 1 main 2 board I copied pasted wrong on that one. The fetches may have been a big help but I own 0 Scalding Tarns and I decided to go splash late last night. I wouldn't actually drop the island as to get around my own moons and still be able to trinket mage. The Mox diamonds worked amazingly for me it color fixed and like I said made explosives effects and city of traitors so much better.

Reanimator - Game one he reanimated Inkwell Leviathan he got in 1 swing before I combo-ed out with blast protection stopping the force. I boarded in my 2 other Crypts, Meekstone, and 3 blood moons I locked him out from blue with moon effects early Tormod's Crypt silently waited for something to be targeted in poof it was gone. One side ride to agro victory.

Landstill- I made a few play errors as I beat this same deck at my last tourney against the same guy. The biggest killer for me was he ran 4 main deck EE and academy ruins. I hit away his first 2 with my crypt but I just didn't hink he was running 4 copies main deck between that and swords I kept losing my painter and stones. He was playing quite slowly as most Landstill players do and once he had the third EE online and returnable with 20 mins in the round I scooped up and went to game 2. Game 2 I had enough pieces I went for it too early and got blown out. My biggest mistake was not grabbing Vexing Shusher on my first Recruiter if I did I would have won; but I didn't, lesson learned we went to turns on game two. I don't think I would lose this match up again as I will play it much differently the next time. But that is why we play local tournaments.

Mono Red Goblins- I got paired up to the Goblin which took the day 5-0. We was on the play, turn 1 lackey made turn 2 siege gang which about as good as sealed it up with gempalm and co clearing the way for lackey to continue to kill me. Game 2 I grabbed my academy ruins and Trinisphere I know people are really into the trini here but I figured on the play would have been great turn 1. No such luck but I had figures and mana enough to make them work got in 4 damage before he had a goblin blocker but a vialed in lackey at EOT was killer and he had a huge board. I fought my way back into it he sided in blasts which was key in killing my painter when I was tryin to LLanawan which would have been game over. I still fought back and stabilized EEed his lackeys and vial away blocked the piledriver with my recruiters and stayed into it until he top decked a sting scourger to bounce my lone non blue blocker swung for lethal my G. stone was on the top I would have comboed next turn.

Dredge- I slaughtered dredge the main deck hate was perfect pulled it in on the mage comboed off pretty quick victory. Game 2 I turn 1 tormod's crypt and painter go he played pithing needle on Crypt. Next turn he got his engine going and hit bridges and Iona I got priority blasted the needle crypted and he was pretty much done. Swung my way home on 2 Servants and a later magus of the moon.

Opponent no show- boo my opponent must have decided he didn't want any.

I feel with the added Mages and Moxes works well I was never mana short except lacking blue the last game against dredge but I was fine with that. Iin my opinion it is just as aggro but it does miss the SSG bluff but I think it may be worth not having it although quite a few time I said I would really like to have a SSG to keep people on their toes.

DrewliusMaximus

03-22-2010, 09:57 PM

I didn't see anybody post the video links from the 5k Feature match. I am watching it now, it is such a bummer you guys got the feature match when you played each other. Does anyone have a video of anyone playing a non mirror match? This is just one of those decks where you can't really get a chance to see someone else play it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szT8niUN8-M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5O_rjwd0kY

I guess they didn't take video of my top 8 or top 4 matches against Merfolk and Zoo. The mirror isn't exactly something you need to prepare for.

I recently picked the deck up again after playing other stuff for a while, and I think it's a good option if the meta is going to be more Bant / Merfolk / Lands than Zoo or Reanimator. For Zoo, make sure you can play a full 4 Blood Moons out of the board. Your best bet to beat Zoo is a turn 1 Moon.

My list hasn't changed that much:

9 Mountain
1 Foothills
1 Mire
4 Tomb
3 City
3 Mox

4 SSG
4 Recruiter
4 Servant
3 Magus
3 Figure
2 Jaya
1 Shusher

1 Blood Moon

4 Grindstone
3 Top

6 Blast
2 Jet
2 Bolt

SB
3 Trinisphere
3 Blood Moon
2 Bolt
2 Spree
2 EE
2 Relic
1 Faerie Macabre

To me, this deck was always a good bet before Iona showed up. Her ability hits the mono-coloreds pretty hard, and she's in 2 good decks you would expect to see at the GP. Still, Imperial Painter has the potential early plays to win against her. I still don't understand why more people don't play Tops in mono-red builds, but Iona makes them even more necessary because they're colorless and the only way to win through a resolved Iona is to assemble the combo quickly without playing the Servant first.

sroncor1

03-23-2010, 08:01 PM

@ vesper ghoul-I agree that I would never want to drop the SSG from the maindeck because they really can just swing the game. I use to run a basic Island in my build and it did help but I found in match ups where i wanted Blood Moon it didn't matter if I had a dead Trinket Mage. If goblins is big in your meta try Lightning Bolt or Magma Jet, although the Lightning Bolt is really what you need to stop the first turn Lackey. I still think Tormod's Crypt is too slow for Dredge and Reanimator but if the Crypt is working for you that is great, it just never tested well for me. Blood Moons will also help that Landstill match up, Academy Ruins is a great basic mountain with it in play. Try them out in your next event, I know I have never not loved having them. And since they are the strongest when they are in your opening hand, I can't stress enough how important it is to have 8 available. In an unrelated note I saw under your name that you live in Whitehal, do you play at The Portal, because I use to play there when I lived in Jersey.

@ Drew- Why are you running one main decked Blood Moon? I spent a lot of time playing against reanimator this weekend and I think the Meekstone, Macabre, and Moon effect plan really can push the match up in our favor. Now I didn't really test the dark ritual builds, but i really don't think that will be the version we see this summer. I think it will be like Flash where it was the slower, more resilient versions where the ones to beat. Zoo on the other han d, I guess the best I can do is land an early Blood Moon and pray. Even when I was running extra burn in the board I couldn't make it favorable. What have you been trying lately to fight zoo, if anything? I know EE has helped a little, but it is still tough.

cwt1220

03-23-2010, 09:18 PM

I recently switched to the 1 Blood Moon maindeck over a Magus, just so you have a moon effect game one that can't be burned/pathed/swords. It has been great so far in testing, and I am currently working on a new sideboard. There is an extreme lack of combo in my meta, so I am working on moving out 3Sphere and moving in some more graveyard hate. Also, in regards to the zoo match, I have been having decent success with Basilisk Collar. It gives them something to have to deal with while you assemble the combo, and protection in your hand.

-Chris-

DrewliusMaximus

03-24-2010, 12:07 AM

@ Drew- Why are you running one main decked Blood Moon? I spent a lot of time playing against reanimator this weekend and I think the Meekstone, Macabre, and Moon effect plan really can push the match up in our favor. Now I didn't really test the dark ritual builds, but i really don't think that will be the version we see this summer. I think it will be like Flash where it was the slower, more resilient versions where the ones to beat. Zoo on the other hand, I guess the best I can do is land an early Blood Moon and pray. Even when I was running extra burn in the board I couldn't make it favorable. What have you been trying lately to fight zoo, if anything? I know EE has helped a little, but it is still tough.

I run 1 MD Moon because I want the ability to run 4 Moons, and I don't want to give up any other slots.

Regarding Zoo and Reanimator - to a certain extent, you have to accept some unfavorable matchups. Imperial Painter's basic strategy is awesome because (aside from 1st turn Magus / Moon) it abuses Painter's Servant more than any other deck. The downside is that we're vulnerable to any deck with a bunch of creature/artifact removal,especially if it has red removal that can be played through Magus/Moon, so Zoo will always be an issue.

Against Reanimator, Meekstone is a good choice. Another option would be Noetic Scales, because it breaks the Iona lock, but it costs more. I board in Trinispheres, Moons, Relics, and Macabre (-3 Figure, -2 Jaya, -2 Jet, -2 Bolt) and I use Blasts aggressively (I counter any early blue spell I am given the opportunity to counter). Reanimator is just a combo deck, but instead of going for the win outright, it can consistently "combo out" a fattie that blanks most our deck. Kinda sucks, but still beatable.

Against Zoo, I board in Moons, Bolts, Relics and EE's (-3 Magus, -3 Blast, -2 Jaya, -1 Shusher) and I hope for a turn 1 Moon. If I don't get Moon, then I try to match them threat-for-answer until I can play Servant and combo out on the same turn, either when they're tapped out, or with Blast protection. In this situation, I really want Top to keep my cards relevant and dig for the combo.

Vesper Ghoul

03-24-2010, 08:18 AM

@sroncor1 - Yup I play at the Portal, that is where I have played my last 2 events with painter. I've played there since 2005, I wonder if we have played each other before.

sroncor1

03-24-2010, 10:30 AM

@Drew- My sideboard strategies are almost the same, with only the numbers of a few cards changing. I have found that, at least in my build, if the Blood Moon effect doesn't come down first its better to wait against re animator so I don't cut myself off from blue to push through the combo. I really don't think reanimator is a bad match up and it is more even than people think, but this does depend on the build. For me the bad match ups have been zoo and belcher, and belcher sucks so I'm cool with that.

@Vesper Ghoul- We probably did although I,m now stationed in DC so I only get to play when I visit my parents on the weekend, but I don't think I have played there since Sept. Great store though.

sroncor1

03-28-2010, 04:31 PM

That nice guy

04-03-2010, 03:48 PM

So I played in an event today that cut to top 4 with me in 5. Along the way I beat Quinn, Goblins, and Reanimator. I lost to zoo and aggro loam although I was very unlucky in the loam match up and I def don't think that the match is unfavorable. Still not sure how to make the zoo match up better. I'm thinking a few Traps in the board and not really giving a fuck about it. Although I only saw Magus time 3 each game where a Bllod Moon would have won it. But its rough for sure. And there isn't much room in the board. What are others thoughts on possibly just forgetting the zoo matchup, is it still that big in the meta?

Considering that they have more removal (including pridemage) that you could possible deal with, it is the reason I stopped playing the deck. I tried using more bolt effects and ricochet trap insted of REB and that helped a little but this deck still loses to Zoo hard. Till the meta changes it'll be on the shelf. Also Basilisk Bow-tie is great if you can keep a creature on the board.

moug

04-07-2010, 08:39 AM

Tuktuk the Explorer
Cost: 2R
Type: Legendary Creature - Goblin
Pow/Tgh: 1/1

Haste
When Tuttuk the Explorer is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, put a legendary 5/5 colorless Goblin Golem artifact creature token named Tuktuk the Returned onto the battlefield.
Rarity: Rare

I was looking for a creature I can tutor on recruiter, but being able to chumpblock and gain some time....
Tuktuk the Returned is the perfect defender i was waiting for.
Maybe a good help against zoo.

ryO!

04-07-2010, 11:05 AM

Schembo

04-11-2010, 05:13 AM

Finished last night for 2nd place with u/r painter. I played following list.

3 Imperial Recruiters
3 Magus of the Moon
4 Painter's Servent
4 SSG
4 Trinket Mage
2 Figure of Destiny
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage

3 REB
4 Pyroblast
3 Grindstone
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chrome Mox
1 Blood moon
1 SDT
1 EE

Lands
4 Mountains
1 Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors

Side
3 Blood Moon
1 EE
1 Meekstone
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Vexing susher
2 Hibernation
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Shattering Spree

There was 24 players so we played 5 rounds swiss and top8.

1 round - u/w/r Landstill

Md firespouts came behind the corner in first game and take my figures away.But, i get activated grindstone in turn 5 with painter in play and 2 REB in hand.2nd game i lost after long game after counter war. 3th game blood moon keeps him away for white mana and i got plenty of time tutor both pieces when he used his counters on my figures and 2 servants.

1 - 0 (2-1)

2 round - ANT

Arf, just that one i was afraid. Firs game first turn blood mon keeps him away from black mana and i got just enought time to get servant in play and counter all relevant spells when he try to combo. 2nd and 3th game goes just like opponent wants :( In both games i mulligan to 5 when i tried to find 1st/2dn turn moon effect and/or bolts.

1 - 1 (3-3)

3 round - Agro loam

And almost equally bad matchup right after ANT game. 1st game i got really fast start and activate grindstone in turn 4 with painter (He got 1 turn more when he wasted my ancient tomb) Game 2 i mulligan to 6 cards. first hand was 3 ancient tomb, 3 city of traitors and 1 lightning bolt. 2nd hand looks fine, mountain, island, recruiter, figure, trinket mage. But i newer got that 3th land and opponent got first turn chalice and 3 tarmos so we go to 3th game. Meekstone was really golden in this game, he used his pulses and grips ti keep my combo away so he got no more answers for my meekstone. So he need to find creature with enough strengt to swing lethals in one strike. In couple turns he finds Countryside Crusher but i got combo online just 1 turn before when he is ready to kill me.

2 - 1 (5-4)

4 round - u/g merfolk with tarmos

1st game i got combo online in turn 6 with 2 REB in hand for backup. 2nd game i got flooded and opponent chained 3 standstills, folks just trampled me. 3th game was like 1rst game only couple turns later jay ballard and meekstone in play.

3 - 1 (7-5)

5 round - ID for top8

Quarterfinals - BGW Depths Loam

He plaeyd couple lands and knight of reliquary which swinged couple times before i got combo out. 2nd game i got nuts and combo out on turn 2 :P Sided in bloodmoons and meekstone.

Semifinals - b/w tempo? (or is this pikula?)

1st game i see only Weathered Wayfarer and couple mom's before i got active grindstone with painter. Sided in vexing susher, blood moons and ee. Got a litlle suprise when opponen starts fetching Scrubland-> Wayfarer and next turn confidant. Didint find servat in this game and couple avengers eats my lifes away fast. 3th game i keep him in check with painter and jaya a long time before i find grindstone.

Finals - Same ANT i lost already in round 2

Here we go. ANT got 2nd turn kill in both games.

Really good games, maybe need to get some combo hate on sb. Meekstone won me that agro loam game and helped a lot in merfolk game. Got 2 hibernations in sb for progenital and enchantress but didnt face them in tourey. oddly there was no zoo at all, but i was just happy about that.

sauce

04-11-2010, 11:22 AM

just saw someone imperial tutor a siege gang commander *wtf*
has this been discussed?

cwt1220

04-20-2010, 12:21 AM

I have thought about Siege-Gang, but he just costs a little too much. No one has posted in a while, so I thought I would post my current list. Here it is:

4- Ancient Tomb
3- City of Traitors
9- Mountains
1- Arid Mesa
1- Scalding Tarn

4- Imperial Recruiter
4- Simian Spirit Guide
4- Painter's Servant
3- Figure of Destiny
3- Magus of the Moon
2- Jaya Ballard, Task Mage

4- Lightning Bolt
4- Grindstone
3- Red Elemental Blast
3- Pyroblast
3- Chrome Mox
2- Sensei's Divining Top
2- Basilisk Collar
1- Blood Moon

SB:
3- Relic of Progenitus
3- Faerie Macabre
3- Shattering SPree
2- Blood Moon
2- Vexing Shusher
2- Umezawa's Jitte

This is the most current list that I have been testing with and have been very happy with. The one of Blood Moon in place of the Magus has been fantastic. The only thing that I am not quite sure on right now is the Jitte's in the board. They are pretty good, but I feel like they should be something else. Any thoughts?

-Chris-

thorin_the_king

04-20-2010, 07:50 PM

have you dismissed the rw aggro list, cwt1220?

i was testing this card in the place of figures a nd I've been very happy:

:r: :r: Kargan Dragonlord

Creature - Human Warrior 2/2,

Level up :r: (:r:: Put a level counter on this. Level up only as a sorcery.)

LEVEL 4-7

4/4

Flying

LEVEL 8+

8/8

Flying, trample

:r:: Kargan Dragonlord gets +1/+0 until end of turn.

Level-uping at sorcery speed is bad, but i like how i can invest spare mana each turn instead of doing it at a time like figure of destiny. plus when a 4/4 it flies.

do you think it will replace figure in this deck?

sroncor1

04-21-2010, 10:49 AM

I don't think it will replace Figure for a few reasons. 6igure drops for one which is huge, if for no other reason to block Lackey or slow the attack down. The instant speed ability is also very nice. It allows you to keep open counter mana and you can delay the pump till the best moment. Not to mention he is on color with the white splash. - do like the card though, just not sure if it has a place in the deck, but I'm preety sure you don't want to drop Figure for it.

Wasteland

04-22-2010, 05:20 AM

When playing basilisk collar - why not put in a goblin sharpshooter for tutoring? He's the random win with collar

cwt1220

04-22-2010, 02:34 PM

When playing basilisk collar - why not put in a goblin sharpshooter for tutoring? He's the random win with collar

I was playing him when collar first came out, but he seemed to be a little narrow. Only good with the collar, but otherwise useless. As far as replacing figure, I am going to do some testing. On paper, the dragonlord seems better to me, because of the flying and not needing to put all the mana to him at once. Time will tell, and I will keep you guys updated.

-Chris-

DrewliusMaximus

05-09-2010, 08:57 PM

After taking a break from this deck for a while, I picked it up again last week and this weekend. Last weekend I scrubbed out of the local tourney 1-2 playing a list almost the same as the one I played at SCG Dallas. This weekend I went 4-0 into the top 4 with more Blood Moons MD, losing in the top 4 to UW Tempo.

I still like this deck in the current meta, but I think Magus is not quite as good as he used to be, and MD Blood Moons are now more important than they used to be. It seems like the rise of Reanimator has cut down the number of Zoo decks slightly, which is good for Imperial Painter. But Zoo is still out there in numbers, and STP is in most other decks, which means Blood Moon is required much of the time to actually provide the Moon "lock" effect for more than a turn.

Here is the list I played this weekend:

9 Mountains
1 Foothills
4 Tomb
4 City
3 Mox

4 SSG
4 Recruiter
4 Servant
3 Magus
3 Figure
2 Jaya
1 Shusher

3 Blood Moon
6 Blast
2 Magma Jet

3 Top
4 Grindstone

SB
4 Trinisphere
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Shattering Spree
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Blood Moon

RexFTW

05-09-2010, 10:19 PM

muahahahhaa now i know what u play.

troll mode activated: you should totally splash green for tarmogoyf. hes way better than figure.

cwt1220

05-09-2010, 10:30 PM

I have also had this deck on the back-burner for a while, but started putting it back together a couple days ago for the tournament in Vestal on the 15th. Trying out a few new things, including Kargan Dragonlord. He has been pretty solid so far. The mana cost hasn't been a problem and the socery speed pump hasn't either. Here is what I am working with now:

4- Ancient Tomb
3- City of Traitors
2- Fetches
9- Mountains

4- Imperial Recruiter
4- Painter's Servant
4- Simian Spirit Guide
3- Magus of the Moon
3- Kargan Dragonlord
2- Jaya Ballard

4- Lightning Bolt
4- Grindstone
3- Red Elemental Blast
3- Pyroblast
3- Chrome Mox
2- Sensei's Divining Top
2- Basilisk Collar
1- Blood Moon

SB:
3- Faerie Macabre
3- Relic of Progenitus
3- Shattering Spree
2- Blood Moon
2- Vexing Shusher
2- ??

Collar has still been superb, especially on a flying Dragonlord! I can't decide on the last 2 Board spaces. I am not playing 3Sphere, because there is no combo around here, and I am playing more graveyard hate because I will definitely face lands and reanimator a lot. I was thinking price of Price of Progress, but can't really decide. Suggestions would be nice.

-Chris-

DrewliusMaximus

05-10-2010, 12:25 PM

RexFTW

muahahahhaa now i know what u play.

troll mode activated: you should totally splash green for tarmogoyf. hes way better than figure.

Not until you put Goyf in your Lands deck. Oh, you already did that? Well screw you JJ...stop Goyfin' my style. We'll settle this over poker tonight. Hold-em mode activated.

Collar has still been superb, especially on a flying Dragonlord! I can't decide on the last 2 Board spaces. I am not playing 3Sphere, because there is no combo around here, and I am playing more graveyard hate because I will definitely face lands and reanimator a lot. I was thinking price of Price of Progress, but can't really decide. Suggestions would be nice.

Trinisphere isn't worth it as a 2-of anyway, but Trinisphere is good against Reanimator.

Personally, I refuse to have less than 4 Blood Moons available. At this point, my take on Imperial Painter is that Blood Moon (much more so than Magus now) is one of it's strongest plays. A first turn Moon even turns your Zoo matchup into a favorable situation.

When I ask myself, "why play this deck over something else?", I keep coming back to a few key things:
1. Super fun - can play out as combo, control and aggro.
2. Naturally hates blue.
3. Abuses Moon effects as well as any deck, and is more consistent than Dragon Stompy.

That being said, I'm coming around to the same conclusions that some of the Europeans on deckcheck already have...more MD Moons is good.

thorin_the_king

06-08-2010, 09:32 PM

anyone still working on this deck? i continue playing it from time to time but i don't see which direction take with him. more moon effects md? more aggro with the new kargan dragonlord and figure md or more controlish with more blasts and tops?

i still think this is a good deck.

by the way, i'm impressed by this take on imperial painter by the germans:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=35932

Mainboard:
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
8 Mountain
4 Chrome Mox
4 Painter's Servant
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Blood Moon
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Pyroblast
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Magma Jet
4 Grindstone
2 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lightning Bolt

# 60

Sideboard:
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Viashino Heretic
2 Shattering Spree
1 Vexing Shusher
3 Pyrokinesis
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Relic of Progenitus

# 15

they erase figures from md, and play with bolts, jets, but only 8 mountains!!! i still have to figure out how this list works out, but they have a lot of them well placed in little tournaments, and the list that made day 2 in gp madrid was exact md like this, sb was a little different. you can find it here (sorry, it's in spanish)

http://www.ancestralgames.com/node/487

well, hope the masters of this deck, drewlius, cwt1220, sroncor1 etc are still playing it and share with us latest developments of it.

thorin

ryO!

06-09-2010, 06:12 AM

Haven't played it for a while as i am currently playing DHP combo but i am still developping it. tried also the dragon lord a bit and well ... hated it
I am trying for the 1st time a Ru version of it and it goes like this :

MD
3 Chrome Mox
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Basilik Collar
3 Grindstone
1 Meekstone
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
2 Sensei Divining Top
1 Goblin Welder
2 Jaya
4 Painter Servant
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Trinket Mage
3 Magus Of The Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Blood Moon
1 Mountain
1 Great Furnace
3 Volcanic Island
1 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 City Of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyroblast
SB
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Shattering Spree
1 Aether Spellbomb
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Magus Of The Moon
1 Viashino Heretic

still not sure what to cut in the sb as it s 18 cards

Main reasons i ve stoped a bit playing IP R are :
reanimator => iona t2/3
survival bant => iona t3/4

that's why i ve tried to splash blue mainly for Aetherspellbomb and especialy for meekstone both trinketable ofc.

about the mono R version i am trying a new inclusion : grim lavamencer anyone tested it before?

sroncor1

06-10-2010, 04:21 PM

thorin_the_king

06-10-2010, 06:26 PM

@sroncor1 is it fon enlightned tutor only? or you play swords and stoneforges as well? mind sharing it with us? thx!

ryO!

06-11-2010, 04:45 AM

Iona really shouldn't be a be a problem. I actually think the reanimator matchup is a very favorable one. Meekstone kicks them in the dick, and our combo is as fast as theirs. The key to the matchup is knowing when to drop a Moon effect as it can totally lock them out, but it also can cut out your second color which is really important. I think if you play the matchup a little you will see where this deck can attack reanimator. I know I struggled with it a little, but since they have dropped Dark Ritual, it has not been a problem. This past weekend I smashed it at the Starcity Open.
The main problems with this deck are Zoo, Tendrils, and Belcher. Shitty midrange G/B/w decks are also troublsome but they are generally shitty and you shouldn't see them in the latter rounds as they lose to combo, zoo and other tier 1 decks.
I have recently switched to a white splash and i really like it with the current meta. If you are in a heavy counterbalance, tempo thresh meta, then the blue splash is probably best. But if you are playing in a meta like the Philadelphia open, then I think the white splash is best.

well actually iona is a problem :
against reanimator : their key cards Entomb & Reanimate (or exhume) are black which nullify the blast effects in the early turns.
againt survival bant : they will be able to fetch it turn 3 and play turn 4 which gives us a rather short clock, i know our deck is fast BUT it doesn't always kills on turn 2/3 and moreover survival bant and reanimator got counters to slow us down.
our outs are comboing turn 2/3 or Moon turn 1/2.
about Ant, i find the Mu decent, and never had that much problems i wouldn't call it a bad MU.
Zoo is indeed anoying maybe TukTuk can help or Grim (which i am currently testing) and meekstone help as well.
about SHITTY (because those decks are simply just BAD) decks G/B/w i goddamn despise them, i HATE to see them in the latter rounds (i don't even understand how sometimes they can be there in those final rounds) ... i mean wtf can you do againt t1 seize t2 tourach t3 tourach ... I just hate discard ...
and what about your white splash ?
give us some input.

thorin_the_king

06-11-2010, 07:18 AM

@ryo,

i tried long tiem ago grim lavamancer adding more fetches to the mono red bild to make him worthwhile, but i couldn't activate him more than a couple of times per game. we don't put a lot of cards quickly in the yard as burn, sligh, goyf sligh or zoo so i despised him as an option, but i don't know waht build are you trying with him.

anyway i like your approach with the blue splash, as for your sb, i'll cut the magus(you have 5 moon effects md), the heretic, shattering spree is way better and probably one of the lightnings.

hope that helps.

thorin

sroncor1

06-11-2010, 10:32 AM

I had been testing a white splash for a while now as Countertop and Tempo decks have dropped off the map in my area. I also watched Paul Lynch use Absolute law to some good effect against Zoo decks. So I put 3 Enlightened Tutors in the deck and main decked 1 Blood Moon. Nothing revolutionary but it really has helped the Zoo match up. It is still not favorable but I finally feel that post board I can out play my opponent and have a chance to win. I will say this though, I think the white splash makes the deck harder to play because you have to commit sooner to a game play, sometimes during the first turn, which means you have to attack your opponent. I'll post a list later today or Saturday with what I played at the Philadelphia Open along with what I plan to play at the Baltimore open that 0-2 drop is running this weekend.

In response to re-animator, I know Iona can slow us down, but a first turn Figure can sometimes just race. Not to mention that the combo is colorless. The player will call red most likely, which makes the enlightened tutor so strong because it can find the other piece. And we can attack their mana base. I really do feel like it is a positive match up, but I have played the fuck out of it. I haven't lost a sanctioned match against it in some time, probably going on nearly 3 months.

I would be interested in hearing what you do against Tendrils as I lost twice with the combo on the table needing to uptap. In my experience if they ponder, you lose the next turn or something terrible happens. It is winnable but sometimes our hate just doesn't slow them down.

Rock decks do piss me off bc they are so bad against the rest of the field, but they have so much discard and targeted removal that it is rough.

nexus blue

06-11-2010, 03:39 PM

I haven't read through this entire thread, though it seems the most relevant one for my questions. I have read through the Epic Painter thread and the Next Level Painter threads.

My question is whether or not there is a viable mono blue deck for this combo, one that utilizes BEBs and Hydroblasts in the same manner that Imperial Painter uses REBs and Pyroblasts. I casually play with a U/B deck that does this, but I just started playing Magic again after a long haitus and haven't yet played against other Legacy decks, though I plan to try it out this week in a local Legacy tourney. I used to play a shitty version of MUC and tried going with that as a shell before I decided to add the Black b/c I liked having Confidants and the option for Lim Dul's Vault. But the purpose of the post is to see if a blue control version using BEBs and Hydroblasts with Painter's Servant is viable. Any thoughts would be appreciated, and again, since I haven't read all 40 pages of the Imperial Painter thread, the idea may have already been discussed. Thanks.

ryO!

06-12-2010, 06:02 AM

cwt1220

06-18-2010, 11:11 AM

I haven't posted here in a while, nor have I played the deck. I am very happy with this decks possibilities of being strong again with the banning of Mystical Tutor. That just turned 2 of the tougher matches away, but now we need to focus mainly on zoo. I will be posting a new decklist soon and some general ideas. I can't wait to pick this deck back up.

-Chris-

thorin_the_king

06-18-2010, 05:07 PM

im also gald tutor got the cut. by the way, do you think grim monolith is worth in our deck? it can speed 2nd turn kill combos or playoing 1st turn trinispheres after sb...

cwt1220

06-20-2010, 11:26 AM

I don't see myself playing Monolith, because we don't have a way to untap it without dumping mana to it every turn. I don't want to have to make more space for voltaic key as well. I didn't play Trinisphere before mystical got banned and I'm not going to play it after either. I'm not trying to down play Monolith, but I don't really care for it too much in this deck. I more or less have a new list worked out, but I just can't figure out a sideboard right now. I will post it soon when I figure that part out.

-Chris-

DrewliusMaximus

06-27-2010, 05:39 PM

I've tried some slight changes to my Painter list in the last two weeks, and they're working very well. Last week I got top 4 at my local tournament, and yesterday I went to a 39-person tournament in Dallas (Garland) TX for a Mox Emerald with six other guys from here in Houston, and I placed in the top 4 again with Painter. Here's the list I was playing last weekend:

8 Mountain
1 Arid Mesa
1 Wooded Foothills
4 City
4 Tomb
3 Mox

4 SSG
4 Recruiter
4 Servant
3 Figure
2 Magus
2 Jaya

4 Blood Moon
3 Magma Jet
3 Pyroblast
3 REB

3 Top
4 Grindstone

SB
4 Trinisphere
4 Lignthing Bolt
2 Relic
2 EE
2 Shattering Spree
1 Faerie Macabre

Last week I beat Merfolk, lost to Goblins, beat Bant Survival and finally BEAT ZOO to get into the top 4. In the top 4, I was rematched with Zoo and I lost a very close 3-game match.

Yesterday, I made some last-minute sideboard changes to deal better with Reanimator: -4 Trinisphere, +2 Faerie Macabre, +1 Magus, +1 Blast. I felt like the these changes would still give me good hate against ANT and Dredge and I was really only losing hate against Charbelcher and Hypergenisis, which would be much less likely to run into at a bigger and unknown metagame. Of course, I didn't end up facing Reanimator, but I did get my one loss in normal play by running into Charbelcher.

The metagame in Dallas had the normal amount of random stuff you might expect at a special event, and the top half of the decks that I rememnber were Merfolk, Zoo, Reanimator, Counterbalance, ANT, Enchantress, Bant Survival, Charbelcher, Lands, and I know one Mono-Green Chalice Aggro finished 3-3. I went 4-1-1 to get into the top 4:

First match was against a BW Deadguy variant. Both games, I was hit by Inquisition of Kosilek on the first turn, but both games, Figures that were dropped early went the distance after a Moon was dropped later to lock him out of white.

The second match was the most difficult win of the day. It was aginst RB Goblins. Game 1 he beat me before I could combo or do anything of real significance. Game 2, I was able to burn every one of his early guys, and beat for the win with Figure. Game 3 was pretty crazy. He mulled to 6, and didn't have a turn 1 play. I was able to burn all his early guys and beat with some small dudes while using Top but there was like a 3 or 4-turn period of crappy topdecking that let him Ringleader himself back into the game. Luckily I was able to use 2 Recruiters to find Servant, Figure, and reshuffle my library enough times to find Grinstone. The Recruiters and the 1 recruited Figure provided just enough blocking to let me survive and combo off.

The third match was against Kevin Ambler's BG Merfolk. In the first game, an early Blood Moon actually disrupted him significantly and I was able to combo. The second game, I had an amazing anti-Merfolk hand with like 3 Blasts and a Magma Jet, and he had some pretty crappy draws, so it was a quick game.

Match 4 is when I played Charbelcher. I actually won game 1 because he used the free Serum Powder-mulligans twice and removed his one land from the deck and didn't realize that when he went to Land Grant for the Charbelcher win on his first turn. He did have an Empty the Warrens in hand, so he created 10 tokens instead. I had played a turn 1 Figure with a Mox out to ramp once as I was on the play. I then proceeded to drop a Servant and chain Recruiters twice into a second Figure and block enough tokens to stabilize and attack into him with Figures. I lost the second game after keeping a hand with EE and Spree. He played a turn 1 Lotus Petal, and I decided to hold my EE and Spree and hope that I would be given at least one more turn to use them. Then he Charbleched on turn 2. The third game I mulled once into a hand with the combo on turn 2. This is the best thing I could possibly hope for, but of course, he doens't give me second turn as he Belches again on turn 2.

I played Merfolk again in the fifth match, and won two fairly easy games.

I drew into the top 8 and played Thopters. In the first game, I was able to beat pretty quickly with Figures. Game 2 took a while. I was able to drop enough Moons and Magi to buy me a lot of time while applying slow pressure. After he removed all my guys with Firespout, we both went into topdecking-with-Tops-mode for several turns as I played guys and he removed them. He had also played two Aura of Silence so casting stuff for me was difficult. Luckily, I didn't miss a land drop for most of the first 10 turns, and I had been able to keep 2 Moons and a Grinstone on the board, so that he didn't want to pop both the Auras and the Moon effect remained. In the end, a fully-ramped Figure beat for the win.

In the top 4, I was matched against my friend Jeremy playing Bant Countertop with Jace. Game 1 I was on the draw and I mulled a hand that had only 1 Mox as the mana source, but had a Figure, Blast, and Top. The second hand had no mana at all, so I mulled again and had a hand with no red mana, but had an Ancient Tomb and a City along with a Servant. My draw provided a Grinstone and I thought for second there might be a chance. But the Servant was Forced and he proceeded to beat with a Warmonk. Game 2 I had a turn 1 Moon or Magus, which locked him out and I beat for the win. Game 3 I was able to get an early Magus again, but no other beatdown to back it up before he configured Countertop. He played his Countertop perfectly countering all the 2 cc and 3cc spells I could cast, but my Magus beat him down to 3 before he stabilized with Jace and won. Jeremy ended up winning the tournament with that deck.

In conclusion: 4 Moons MD makes your Zoo matchup much better and is a much more solid lock overall. You can't float a white in response to Moon and STP it, or Firespout it. I think the benefits outweigh the downsides even though I obviously don't have a great Goblins matchup. Especially given the new bannings, which should, if anything, increase the Zoo prevalence, I would maximize your chances of an early Moon in game 1.

Malchar

06-29-2010, 09:42 PM

OuterCrow

06-29-2010, 10:14 PM

Has anyone considered using Combust in this deck? It seems like you might be able to shoot down Tarmogoyfs quite frequently. From the M2011 spoiler:

Combust 1R
Instant
Combust can't be countered by a spell or ability.
Combust deals 5 damage to target blue or white creature. This damage can't be prevented.
Illus. Jaime Jones #130/249

This just seems like another tool for RDW in Standard against Baneslayer/Wall of Omens etc.. Without Painter in play, this would be fairly lackluster for us in general.

Hawdes

06-29-2010, 10:19 PM

Has anyone considered using Combust in this deck? It seems like you might be able to shoot down Tarmogoyfs quite frequently. From the M2011 spoiler:

Combust 1R
Instant
Combust can't be countered by a spell or ability.
Combust deals 5 damage to target blue or white creature. This damage can't be prevented.
Illus. Jaime Jones #130/249

Read your post again, sit back, and think... I think you can see exactly why that post wasn't that smart...

Van Phanel

06-30-2010, 08:29 AM

Read your post again, sit back, and think... I think you can see exactly why that post wasn't that smart...

He was obviously referring to Painter in play...

Which is of course still an incredibly bad idea, but still more useful than your post.

DrewliusMaximus

07-01-2010, 06:10 PM

At this point, you have to consider your Zoo matchup when adding anything that relies on Painter to be good. If Combust targeted white and GREEN creatures, it might be a different story, but
as things are, I think you have to ask these questions:

Is it worth it to add more cards that are dependent on Painter?

Is the Painter-dependent card in question better than Active Volcano (or Red Blasts if you're not running 8 currently)?

Renato

07-13-2010, 04:25 PM

Malchar

07-14-2010, 08:36 PM

Combust
Well it does kill pridemage outright, unlike red blast. I was originally going to use 2 so I could get up to 10 "blasts", but I fear losing my 2x magma jet. Also, are there any good replacements for figure of destiny? I don't have any right now and instead I'm just using 2x sword of light and shadow and 1x goblin welder and 1x viashino heretic as a mini toolbox. Also, how important has lightning bolt been in the sideboard? I currently use earthquake (and I don't use EE, so the quake is also for killing tokens).

DrewliusMaximus

07-14-2010, 09:48 PM

I have tested the lists of this thread in MTGO and the last DrewliusMaximus's list seems to me the more competitive of all. I have to note that the Zoo matchup is almost impossible to win (perhaps because I am not too experienced with Painter).
I added 1 Stingcourger and 2 Ensnaring Bridge to the SB for Show and Tell decks (a plague in MTGO meta).

As long as you're running 4 Blood Moon MD, the Zoo matchup should not be unwinnable. I beat Zoo again this past weekend on the way to splitting top 2 at my local tournament. A turn 1 Blood Moon will generally win you the game outright, but even on turn 2, it should lock them out of at least one color. My general strategy against Zoo, beyond playing Moon if possible, is to burn away their guys, drop chump blockers, and draw out their removal with Figures until I can play Servant and combo off in the same turn, hopefully with Blast protection. Burning away Pridemages is especially important. If they have enough mana to Grip, you may have to live long enough to attempt the combo twice. If you can manage to grow a Figure to 4/4, you should be able to hold off attacks and even put pressure on them. This is how I usually sideboard:

-2 Jaya, -4 Blast, -2 Magus

+2 Relic, +2 EE, +4 Lightning Bolt

In post-board matches, you can usually burn away early guys and occasionally get 2 or 3-for-1's with EE. Relic keeps their Goyfs and Knights manageable, and combines with Top and Jet to help you keep playing business spells. Sometimes, you'll be able to get your Figure to 8/8 later in the game, which will usually also win.

Renato

07-15-2010, 07:30 AM

Thx Drewlius - I will follow your guidelines in Zoo matchup.

A question to all: M11 brings 'Leyline of Sanctity' a zero mana enchantment that crashes our combo and M11 adds nothing (except Combust that I thought is too conditional and against another preocupation, the creatures of the opponent).
Do you think that REBs/Pyroblasts (after Painter arrives on board, of course) are enough to struggle that? Or we need to reconstruct the deck in a more aggro way as in one color we dont have enchantment destruction? Add Green or White splash?

DrewliusMaximus

07-16-2010, 12:38 PM

I added 1 Stingcourger and 2 Ensnaring Bridge to the SB for Show and Tell decks (a plague in MTGO meta).

Can't you just counter Show and Tell with Blasts? If for some reason you're finding that is not enough, Duplicant is another answer you could try.

Combust
Well it does kill pridemage outright, unlike red blast. I was originally going to use 2 so I could get up to 10 "blasts", but I fear losing my 2x magma jet. Also, are there any good replacements for figure of destiny? I don't have any right now and instead I'm just using 2x sword of light and shadow and 1x goblin welder and 1x viashino heretic as a mini toolbox. Also, how important has lightning bolt been in the sideboard? I currently use earthquake (and I don't use EE, so the quake is also for killing tokens).

Yeah, I'd keep Jets as the Pridemage solution. Re Figure, I don't know of any good replacements. The thing is that he is both a 1-drop and a true win condition on his own, and I don't know of any other dudes like that in red. For me, the Bolts in the SB have been crucial. For a while, I was trying Firespout but it was not usually a good thing to kill my own creatures against aggro decks, because they would re-build their army faster than me and win. The Bolts let you deal with Zoo and Goblin creatures efficiently while still forcing them to use their cards to deal with your creatures. But I have not tried Earthquake.

A question to all: M11 brings 'Leyline of Sanctity' a zero mana enchantment that crashes our combo and M11 adds nothing (except Combust that I thought is too conditional and against another preocupation, the creatures of the opponent).
Do you think that REBs/Pyroblasts (after Painter arrives on board, of course) are enough to struggle that? Or we need to reconstruct the deck in a more aggro way as in one color we dont have enchantment destruction? Add Green or White splash?

Leyline of Sanctity is not all that scary because you can Blast (or Jaya) it, and a deck that plays 4 of them will probably give you time to do that. The real problem for our combo is Emrakul and to a lesser extent, Progenitus. But remember, Imperial Painter does not need the combo to win. Many times our best way to win is to drop a Moon, Recruit a Figure and beatdown.

Renato

07-16-2010, 03:51 PM

The real problem for our combo is Emrakul and to a lesser extent, Progenitus.

If Emrakul resolves and doesn't have haste (I think in Sneak Attack) we can return it to their hands with Stingcourger or remove it with Duplicant (as you suggested), but Progenitus is another problem as we can't remove or bounce it. Also, we can't counter Natural Order except if we have a Painter ante. In any cases, Ensnaring Bridge prevents them to attack and gives us tempo to combo off. It works also against Iona, but for a limited time as we will reach the 7th card limit. An unusual solution, as someone said in another thread, is Noetic Scales, but it doesn't work in hasted Emrakul case.

DrewliusMaximus

07-16-2010, 07:25 PM

I was referring to the fact that Emrakul and Progenitus prevent the Grindstone win. The problem I see with Ensnaring Bridge is that it only slows them down because it's so easy to remove, and you can't combo without a Relic or Crypt.

So on MTGO, are there a bunch of Sneak Attack decks too? It seems like you should be able handle Show and Tell decks with Blast straight up. Sneak Attack is a different story. Neither Moon effects or Grindstone will work against them. If Sneak Attack is prevalent enough, I might go with Pithing Needles and just play a control role where you get Servants in play, Blast the crucial stuff, and beat for the win with Servants, Recruiters and Figures.

Renato

07-16-2010, 10:34 PM

I was referring to the fact that Emrakul and Progenitus prevent the Grindstone win.
Sorry, I did not got the point... You are right.

The Big Ragu

07-19-2010, 10:53 PM

Are there any versions of this floating around that don't use Magus/Blood Moon???

RexFTW

07-19-2010, 11:22 PM

Are there any versions of this floating around that don't use Magus/Blood Moon???

Why would you want to give up all the free wins? they are you only hope against zoo and are also quite good against bant and landstill. Most 3+ color decks autolose if you play them on turn 1, especially if they dont play red.

Without blood moons you autolose to zoo.

They also improve city of traitors and ancient tomb in the late game.

The Big Ragu

07-19-2010, 11:40 PM

Why would you want to give up all the free wins? they are you only hope against zoo and are also quite good against bant and landstill. Most 3+ color decks autolose if you play them on turn 1, especially if they dont play red.

Without blood moons you autolose to zoo.

They also improve city of traitors and ancient tomb in the late game.

I suppose in mono red heavy metas, although you make an excellent point concerning city/tomb.

RexFTW

07-19-2010, 11:48 PM

mono red is not a deck

cwt1220

07-22-2010, 02:00 PM

In case people haven't seen this yet: http://www.thestarkingtonpost.com/articles/-/Secret_Tech_to_Rock_GP_Columbus%3F. It's a pretty interesting article stating that there are several pros buying recruiters, because they may be the secret tech for Columbus. On that note, who here is going to Columbus? I would really like to meet up with some of you who post on here.

Malakai

07-22-2010, 04:13 PM

Emrakul prevents the grindstone win, sure, but no deck with Emrakul is realistically going to get past the first few rounds. I would be surprised to see anyone with byes playing it. Progenitus, on the other hand, doesn't prevent the grindstone win--it leaves them a library of just 1 hydra. Unless they somehow manage to hardcast him, they'll lose the following turn.

You could also just play graveyard hate and call it a day.

cwt1220

07-28-2010, 08:53 PM

What time is whoever is going to the GP going to arrive? I would like to meet up with the people of this thread. Hit me up with a pm to let me know what you will be wearing (not trying to be a creeper, lol), or where I can meet up with ya.

-Chris-

Vesper Ghoul

07-28-2010, 11:02 PM

I will be at the GP but the meta has dissolved so much I still don't have any idea as to what I want to play. I plan or getting there around 12 noon or 1 depending on traffic ( 7 hour drive.) I have my byes but I may play a grinder to see what things look like.

Decks I've tested and are ready to go:
C-top/Thopter
Merfolk (non standstill)
Geddon Stax
Painter
New Horizons
Supreme Blue

thorin_the_king

07-29-2010, 09:25 AM

good luck to every imperial painter player!! hope you do better than me in gp madrid (dropped at 4-3) :)

you maybe see a lot of recruiters in the tables, as stated in the starkingtonpost blog, dunno if it's going to be a lot of aluren , painter's or anything else. anyway, good luck and keep us informed in this thread about your results!!!!

cheers

thorin

Vesper Ghoul

07-29-2010, 09:44 AM

With Imperial Recruiters jumping to $200 on Starcitygames I may be parting with mine, it would be hard to pass up $800.

Rath

07-29-2010, 11:17 AM

I have the feeling people are gunning for Aluren with the recruiters. That was my original deck, so its pretty neat to see it coming back (still a tough match-up against counterbalance though). I would agree that its kind of tough to not sell my playset as I think I only paid $300 or so... and a 267% return on investment is hard to argue with!

P.S: Its been a while since I played Aluren, but from what I remember, here is some info to keep in mind about Aluren combo with Imperial Painter:
> Once Aluren lands, they are usually going to go off, and can do so in response to anything you do... which is kind of the point of the deck, but don't expect to try and destroy the enchantment (with blasts and painter in play) as they will just win in response
> Aluren usually goes off after Cabal therapy x2 or with a Force of Will in hand, again, be prepared
> Grindstone combo kills them round 1, but after they will side in Progenitus and Natural Order (probably) so be prepared
> counter intuition, as they are using it to go off the next turn (3x Aluren, 3x Cabal Therapy, 3x Recruiter, 2x? and 1x Witness, etc), guaranteed
> countering cavern harpy and then using GY hate to get rid of it hurts them badly
> use blasts to counter harpy... DON'T let Aluren resolve creatures (once harpy resolves the first time, you are basically screwed)... without harpy, they cannot go off properly
> Blood moon is effective, but not crippling, magus of the moon also works due to their lack of creature removal (again, harpy allows for multiple bone shredders, so be wary)
> Jaya's 3dmg is also surprisingly effective, especially against versions using birds of paradise instead of wall of roots
> Save blasts for important spells (you will usually have to fight through a force of will) not lands, once the deck lands Aluren they don't care about their lands... at all

kusumoto

07-29-2010, 11:43 AM

This was such a fun deck, but all this Aluren craze has gotten me out of it. Selling my recruiters for a +40% profit was just too hard to pass up :[

cwt1220

07-29-2010, 11:56 AM

Unfortunately, I will be selling mine as well. I really need the money for this trip, and I am dead set on playing dredge. I will be picking them back up in a little while when they drop back down. It is really hard to pass up 600-800 bucks for them. See you in Ohio!!

-Chris-

Rath

07-29-2010, 12:18 PM

can I ask where you guys are selling yours? I was thinking Ebay, but am open to suggestions

ryO!

07-29-2010, 12:35 PM

i don't get it, aluren even with IR isn't really good ... those gossips works damn so exponentially ... IP is better !
on ebay btw those are still for 15x Bin and some sites 12x btw.

Pastorofmuppets

07-29-2010, 12:41 PM

mono red is not a deck

Isn't Imperial Painter Mono-red?

cwt1220

07-29-2010, 02:46 PM

If anyone wants to meet up at any point on Friday, I'll be there in a braves shirt and hat and have a black and gray backpack. Good luck to all who attend.

-Chris-

Michael Keller

07-30-2010, 11:52 AM

Good luck to all the Imperial Painter players at the Grand Prix!!!

DrewliusMaximus

07-30-2010, 04:41 PM

Wish I could go so bad!

Recruiter

08-02-2010, 07:46 PM

Hi, this is my first post on this site.
Imperial Painter Mono Red is my tournament deck in the Legacy format.
This is my current list;

// Lands
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
10x Mountain

// Creatures
4x Painter's Servant
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Magus of the Moon
4x Imperial Recruiter
1x Jaya Ballard, Task Mage

// Spells
4x Red Elemental Blast
4x Pyroblast
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Grindstone
3x Chrome Mox
3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Blood Moon

// Sideboard
4x Trinisphere
4x Pyrokinesis
3x Shattering Spree
3x Relic of Progenitus
1x Silent Arbiter

The Big Ragu

08-07-2010, 02:16 AM

I must confess that I have fallen deeply in love with this deck. It's fun, it's unique, and it's combo/aggro/control all wrapped into one. Definitely gonna build it IRL. Here's what I've cooked up in my very limited experience with it thus far:

// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
10 [8E] Mountain (4)

// Creatures
2 [TSP] Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
4 [P3] Imperial Recruiter
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
2 [FD] Magma Jet
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [OV] Pyroblast
4 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
4 [TE] Grindstone
4 [4E] Lightning Bolt

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 1 [9E] Jester's Cap
SB: 1 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 2 [CH] Blood Moon
SB: 3 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [V09] Trinisphere

B0W53R

08-08-2010, 12:52 PM

I played in a 32 man tournament last night and finished with a 1st/2nd split, winning a couple of duals! I was unsure about what deck to bring but decided to go with Paintzilla since it's my most practiced deck and a metagame curveball. I will be honest that the zoo matchup is terrible but I decided to gamble and it paid off because I did not have to face the (at least)two people running it. My list is slightly different than normal...

4 Mountain
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

4 Magus of the Moon
4 Goblin Welder
4 Painters Servant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage

3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyroblast
2 Bood Moon
2 Gamble
1 Chrome Mox
4 Grindstone
4 Sensei's Diving Top

SB
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Anarchy
2 Shattering Spree
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Blood Moon
1 Silent Arbiter

Inclusions/Omissions

Figure of Destiny: Some of you like this guy and if he works for you, great. This card is absolute garbage in this deck/format though. He does nothing except waste your mana/tempo pursuing an alternate game plan. Sure, it's OK with a Moon, but you've probably already won if you stuck a moon. If you don't have a moon out then he may have issues becoming 4/4. That is if he doesn't get wasted in response or swarmed over. Seriously, 5 mana to have it die to every piece of removal/bounce and it can't hold off or get through a goyf without 6 red mana (11 mana total). Say it with me, "6 red mana". I would rather recuit Painter, Jaya, Welder, or the SB Arbiter or Shusher almost every single time. It takes up all your mana then lets you down.

Lightning Bolt/Magma Jet: Tried it, don't like it. What are you going to kill with it? Dark Confidant? Wild Nacatl? Lackey? What if they run creatures bigger than toughness 3 or few to no creatures? It might buy you a turn against aggro before you get run over. You'll rarely use it for reach in a game you wouldn't have won through aggro the following turn.

Goblin Welder: Complete and utter rapist. For the life of me, I cannot understand why no one seems to like this guy. An early game welder is devastating against anything with counters, essentially blanking them, and cruical in games 2 and 3 where you might see some Krosan Grips and such. If Grindstone is in the yard then Recruit a Welder. Welder makes otherwise risky Gamble shenanigans totally worth it. Activate Grindstone, retain priority, swap Grindstone for painter and win. Or, end of turn swap Painter for Grindstone, untap, activate, swap for Painter and win. Added bonus: It keeps Ensnarings Bridge online -- Crazy with Top.

Gamble: Finding Grindstone or even Painter can be tricky sometimes which is why I suppose Figure might sound good. But winning right now is better than betting on Figure getting there. Also, it finds Servant, blast, 2 mana lands, Ensnaring Bridge, etc.. Even without Welder this card can flat out win games if you have the balls. Tapping top to up your hand size and increase your odds of keeping what you want can help in a pinch. This has won many, many more games than it has lost me. it's not even close.

Sensei's Divining Top: Most of you know it's a great card to begin with but shines in this deck. Cheap and efficient with 10 shuffle effects, it helps consistancy immensely. Opening with a Tomb and top with activation is great. I need artifacts and it is awesome with Welder. Tap top, retain priority, weld top, draw a card without putting top on top of the library since it's in the yard. If you can get a top in the yard and a second top in play, swap top for top and the card drawing and topping inbetween all the draws will get you what you need.

Mana Base: More lands and less Chrome mox may hurt explosiveness slightly but consistancy is key. My build mulligans very rarely uncommon to Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors mana bases. Great Furnace is still an artifact with Moon out, enabling Welder. Card advantage is difficult with this deck and Chrome Mox hurts and is a terrible top deck.

Report:
Michael B/G/W Loam
G1: He goes first and takes out my first turn Moon with Toughtseize followed by a second turn one as well. Couple of goyfs and a Pernicious Deed later I go down after Blasting one goyf.
G2: First turn Magus almost gets there before I combo out with him at low life and Welder backup.
G3: Turn 1 Grindstone. Turn 2 Recruit Painter which he then Thoughtseized. Top deck Painter and win Turn 3 with a Mountain and Tombx2.
Note: 3 colors with Wasteland and Mishras Factory...

Michael U/g Merfolk
G1: Turn 1 Grindstone with Great Furnace. Wasteland. Top, Painter which he tries to Daze, Weld in Furnace for Top and pay it. Win.
G2: Turn 1 Welder meets Force. Turn 2 Welder resolves. Turn 3 Gamble. Win turn 4 or 5.
Note: Welder bends Merfolk over without an active Jitte.

Matt: Green Stompy (10 landish variety)
G1: He plays lots of dudes and I am holding his attacks down with Painter, Jaya, Welder. I get a second top that I pitch with Jaya and a second Welder and start frantically drawing, swapping, and topping. My last turn at 3 life I finally find Grindstone on the 3rd card down, draw it and win!
G2: Turn 1 Llanowar. Grindstone. Turn 2 something for him and Painter for me. Turn 3 Win.

Thomas: U/w/g Control with Cunning Wish, Humility
G1: Welder, Painter, Recuiter which he forces? Recruit next turn for Jaya and go to town on his mana base.
G2: Turn 2 Blood Moon is counterspelled. Turn 3 Magus with Blast backup resolves. I get 3 Painters out and 2 Blasts in my hand.
Note: Humility doesn't stop Magus or Painter's continuous effects which is hilarious.

Round 5 I.D. to top 8 with the 1 seed.

Quarter Finals
Sean U/W/G Excalibur
G1: Welder, Painter, Top, Grindstone.
G2: Getting beatdown by an early Goyf. He draw step Cliques to find a Bood Moon and a Magus. He decides to let me keep both. (No counter)! Land a Magus, soon thereafter get a Bridge online that stops goyf but not Clique. He gets me to 3 and Bridge and Moons lock him out. I build up a board with no joke: 3 Magus, 3 Painter, 3 Welder. Start swapping tops and digging like crazy managing my hand to 2 cards max. Eventually get a blast for his Goyf and Alpha strike over two turns. Really strange game...
Note: Sword of Fire/Ice doesn't work with Painter on blue.

Semi Finals
Derrick R/B Goblins
G1: First turn Blood moon isn't very good so I put it on Mox. I get ported and try to play Jaya, gets incinerated. Painter and blast Lackey and Warchief. Incinerator. Vomit goblins and wreck my couch.
G2: Turn 3 win.
G3: Turn 3-4 win.

Finals split. It's 2 in the morning and even though I had a good matchup against 4 color blue Jace.dec We draw and go home. I get a Trop and Sea. Ended with 12-2 record.

Other notes:
I didn't keep game good notes, but at least 2-3 wins were directly because of Gamble and cost me 0 games. Welder was amazing as usual. Top and Moons were of course awesome mostly. SB was ok but didn't use Crypt or Anarchy all day. Crypt is essential still and stupid with Welder. As for Anarchy, I was expecting to run into Enchantress, white leylines, or Progenitus but didnt see them. There was a Death and Taxes deck in the top 8 that I didn't have to play and also a couple of NO Bant I didn't run into, one in the top 8 (We drew round5).

Michael Keller

08-10-2010, 02:24 PM

Lightning Bolt/Magma Jet: Tried it, don't like it. What are you going to kill with it? Dark Confidant? Wild Nacatl? Lackey? What if they run creatures bigger than toughness 3 or few to no creatures? It might buy you a turn against aggro before you get run over. You'll rarely use it for reach in a game you wouldn't have won through aggro the following turn.

...That's the whole point behind using them: To stall the first several turns so that you don't have to worry about being overrun by a horde of Goblins or worrying about being so low on life you need to be wary of tapping your Ancient Tombs for mana. Lightning Bolt also helps allow you to save your instant-speed "Vindicates" (Pyroblast and R.E.B.) so that you don't waste them on smaller creatures.

Lightning Bolt might not kill a Tarmogoyf outright, but it certainly hits a good portion of the creatures in this format that matter the first two or three turns before setting yourself to kill an opponent with Grindstone. How good do you think Lightning Bolt would be if you draw a Painter's Servant and your opponent is sitting there with a Qasali Pridemage on the table?

Makes you wonder, doesn't it?

Just because you dodged Zoo doesn't mean you shouldn't consider all possible avenues for improving the match-up and consider different scenarios, as the above seems all to likely.

B0W53R

08-10-2010, 05:30 PM

You bring up a valid point and it may come down to playstyle and metas. I found that my meta shifted and is Zoo light but still has a lot of aggro, lots of control, and not much combo. Against all 3 tribal and other turn creature sideways decks I like to be the aggro and just race them since they have limited answers, hence a more combo oriented deck. Anything with blue in it, which is half the meta, Bolt is unimpressive. We use it as only a control card, and as a control card, it's not that great overall. Now I admit Zoo is a totally different monster, being a pure aggro deck that can use it's burn as control or aggro as the gamestate permits means fast clock and almost 20 maindeck answers to Painter. I don't think Bolt is enough to solve the threat they pose. I was last trying Lightning Greaves to try and protect a Welder or Painter it but rarely worked with the abundance of instant speed removal they pack. I actually shelved this deck for a while because Zoo was so prominent and if I were to play in a Zoo heavy or unknown meta I would probably tweak my current list or play something else.

DrewliusMaximus

08-10-2010, 07:57 PM

Figure of Destiny: Some of you like this guy and if he works for you, great. This card is absolute garbage in this deck/format though. He does nothing except waste your mana/tempo pursuing an alternate game plan. Sure, it's OK with a Moon, but you've probably already won if you stuck a moon. If you don't have a moon out then he may have issues becoming 4/4. That is if he doesn't get wasted in response or swarmed over. Seriously, 5 mana to have it die to every piece of removal/bounce and it can't hold off or get through a goyf without 6 red mana (11 mana total). Say it with me, "6 red mana". I would rather recuit Painter, Jaya, Welder, or the SB Arbiter or Shusher almost every single time. It takes up all your mana then lets you down.

Lightning Bolt/Magma Jet: Tried it, don't like it. What are you going to kill with it? Dark Confidant? Wild Nacatl? Lackey? What if they run creatures bigger than toughness 3 or few to no creatures? It might buy you a turn against aggro before you get run over. You'll rarely use it for reach in a game you wouldn't have won through aggro the following turn.

I am definitely curious about how these conclusions were reached since I basically believe the complete opposite.

From my experience, resolving a Moon is NOT game over by itself at all. If you don't get a first turn Moon on the play, the opponent can fetch a basic or play a Hierarch (reason number ???? for Jet/Bolt). Figure is an excellent way to complement the Moon plan, especially in a deck that can pump it faster than any other. Figures are a 1cc win condition or a 1cc decoy to draw removal away from your Painters. Seems good to me.

I think Hollywood already addressed the Jet/Bolt issue, but I would add that Jet specifically works really well with Top to dig for the combo, a Blast or just filter away junk.

ryO!

08-11-2010, 06:33 AM

i ve been testing for sometimes new builds around welder for this deck (haven't brought it to a tour yet) and i must say the it is really nice. Last build i tried was inspired by B0W53R (manabase wise) as i finally chose to drop the Moxes.

4 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

3 Magus of the Moon
4 Goblin Welder
4 Painters Servant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage

3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyroblast
2 Bood Moon
2 Jitte
2 Lightening Bolt
4 Grindstone
4 Sensei's Diving Top

SB
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Faerie Macabre
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Vexing
1 Basilik Colar
1 Pyroblast
2 Lightening Bolt
1 Blood Moon
1 Silent Arbiter
2 Figures Of Destiny

bolt & jitte MD as i tend to find them mandatory and also as those are never really dead cards and can manage an aggro win. I am pretty glad i removed Mox at least for now, as i was always never quite satisfied with it, the only downside being less explosive (but no more risky "all" in" starts), but yet more consistent and less mulligans. Tops + Welder is a bomb.
I might try it out in tour again as i tend to see less and less iona which was a really pain in the you know what.

anyone tried reverberate btw ?

thorin_the_king

08-11-2010, 07:46 AM

ryO!

08-11-2010, 08:26 AM

for me the problem with welder builds are that sometimes i dont have a discard outlet to begin using him, as they have in welder survival, or control slaver. what do we do with 2 top in play and welder? i thought a long time ago a build like this involving elsewhere flask, but it wasnt worth it, at least for me. how about mindless automaton?

or maybe having 4 gamble, 4 welder allows us to play triskellions and duplicants, dont know, just throwing ideas off the top of my head.

i remember now ! i was even using them but i totally skipped them

pyrite spellbomb

about triskelion well i admint i ve never thought about it, good thing comparing it to pyrite is that it's fetchable with recruiter, 6 land sound "ok". I guess it deserves some testing.

Also what do you think about Meekstone instead of Ensnaring ?

B0W53R

08-11-2010, 03:06 PM

All right we got some discussion! Experienced pilots are hard to come by thanks to Recruiters being so expensive/pimp. Now don't get me wrong, I don't want to say that my tweak is superior or anything equally ignorant. I've tried to preface both of my last posts with how this take isn't good against Zoo, but this archetype really isn't good against it. Zoo's presence shrank so I went for it and got lucky--two weeks in a row actually--this one was just a larger event, but not even that big.

@Hollywood/Drew: Would you change anything about your lists if you felt Zoo wasn't going to be well represented at the next event you went to?

I admit I was a little harsh in my analysis of Figure probably due to temporary head inflation. It kinda costs 1, but really costs 5 to do anything usefull. Spending the mana/tempo to attempt a 4/4 and have it backfire may cost the game. Backed with bolts/jets a Figure does have a shot at stabilizing or finishing. I had varied success with him though. It became personal when I had a bad luck streak and had a Darth Vader, "You've failed me for the last time admiral", moment and force choked it out of the deck. I have been contemplating adding one back as a Recruiter target.

I don't think Welder enablers are needed as you don't want to get too cute about it. The deck isn't about trying to break Welder like a Survival/Slaver deck. I look at him as a layer of protection for a two artifact combo but happens to have other synergies. Many times I just win with him out there daring my opponent to use that Grip in their hand, something Blasts cannot do. Your opponents will counter or destroy an artifact for you many times. Wasteland on Great Furnace can seem like a great play on the other side of the table and sometimes it is, but it also can comeback to haunt them. G2/G3 Tormod's Crypt can do the job also and you can always Grindstone yourself too.

Mindless Automation sounds like a lot of fun but I doubt it's worth it. If you have the time to recruit him and start swapping, you are in a great position. Pyrite Spellbomb is the most intriguing since it would give some Bolt/Jet like effect and enable Welder for recurring draw/damage. I might try a few out but I'm skeptical.

I've tried all number of Gambles and I feel 2 is the right number. It's really not that cool to see more than one in a game, especially without 4 Chrome Mox. I love the ability of this deck to win with it's back against the wall. The look on opponents faces when they were about to win is priceless.

Meekstone is no good. Ask new metagame threat Emrakul how he feels about it. Stopping the attack phase completely with Bridge is pretty hot. Since I like a 6 blast configuration I think I will go to 4 Pyroblast and 2 REB since you can get rid of Pyroblast without Painter in a pinch with Bridge. I was playing a couple of Jittes for a while and they seemed a bit out of place. Many times to charge it you have to sacrifice a creature and it can be a mana sink.

DrewliusMaximus

08-11-2010, 09:25 PM

Imperial Painter is cool because there are definitely a few legitimately competitive builds. No doubt, the Welder and Gamble route is one of them, and it's the most combo-focused build as far as I can tell. For a period of a few months I played it and came to a similar conclusion as you did B0W53R, that 2 Gambles are the right number. I actually had some good success with less than 4 Welders too (I know there are some reports about it somewhere in this thread but I'm not going to try and find it). After I had been playing Welders and Gambles for a couple of months or so, Hollywood was trying Figures and aggro was on the rise. I tried Figures and found them to be a perfect all-around addition to the deck because, in addition to being their own win condition, they could be effective "walls" to help buy time against Zoo and even Merfolk. Both Welders and Figures are cheap decoys to draw removal and both require some other conditions be met in order to be more effective that 1cc 1/1's, but I've found 3 red mana to be a fairly easy condition to meet, even early in the game. At the time I switched, Aggro Loam was becoming a mainstay in my meta, and I was trying to cut down on 1cc spells to avoid complete Chalice lockdown...I know Figures don't help that cause, but Welders and Gambles required me to play more 1 cc stuff.

If I knew Zoo would be non-existent, I would still use Figures to some extent I think, but I would probably consider using less Blood Moons and max out my Magus count again.

Now that I've gone on my pro-kithkin rant, I will say that Welders and Gambles may be a good way to push to the Grindstone combo through Emrakul decks because you can more consistently get out the Crypts you need to go off.

Emrakul is one of the worst things to happen to this deck. Against Emrakul decks, I am currently siding in a all 4 of my anti-graveyard cards, and/or siding in an extra Blast and a third Jaya so I can play the control role while beating down.

Regarding Moxes, I am currently playing 2. I am still not sure on this, but I suspect that the deck still needs some to enable the explosive starts (our only truly effective "lock" is a first or second turn Moon) but that the right number is definitely below 4.

And yes, I absolutely love Top in this deck. Even without Welders, I would not play Imperial Painter without them, although I only run 3.

ryO!

08-12-2010, 04:47 AM

So far it's been good even w/o Mox but i ll give it a try with 2 and -2 land.
The thing about emrakul is it's indeed really annoying but combining the welder route that allows recursive TCrypt and FMacabre+Recruiter seems fine ... in game 2 & 3. I guess i ll add 1 more FMacabre in the side to make it 2/2 with TCrypt. That mean game one definitely need things like Jitte/bolt to be winnable, as well as focusing on countering Sneack & SnT. Another Option in G2 would be to board in Figures, more bolts, and go on a very aggro route with painter+Blast back up (needle as win more maybe), yet that back up makes their own blast playable.
here my current build w/o mox, (and no i don't like gamble ^^)

4 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

3 Magus of the Moon
4 Goblin Welder
4 Painters Servant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage

2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Pyroblast
2 Bood Moon
2 Jitte
1 Lightening Bolt
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
1 Triskelion (currently trying it)
4 Grindstone
3 Sensei's Diving Top

SB
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Lightening Bolt
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Figures Of Destiny
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Blood Moon
1 Basilik Collar

meta call are i guess SSpree & Vexing & Heart Kami & Pithing Needle

ryO!

08-19-2010, 05:42 AM

So i had some time to test a lot on msw (so yeah well it worth what it worth ...) i came back to 1 Welder but stayed at 19 land & 1 Mox. I came back to a much more aggressive aggro route. After playing many games and even if welder allows tons of awesome tricks italso often happened to be a simple 1/1. Senseis on the other hand were a blast and i am really happy i finally included them. My new main inclusion is from dragon stompy aka taurean mauler, well it's not an "Oh i win!" card but yet an "ok" clock kinda acting like a standstill (yeah i know more or less but the idea is the same you play "i win"). I really had encouraging results. I ve also added 1 Grim lavamencer as i use 6 fetchs now and well he's a pretty decent removal as well as a bait, and get back to 3 Figures MD. So in order to add all this i had to remove 1 Blast & 1 Moon effect (back to 4 MD). I still convinced that Jitte helps a lot and are mandatories. Oh and Triskelion sucks, Solemn Simulacrum is better yet it's a completely different use.

5 Mountain
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

3 Magus of the Moon
1 Goblin Welder
1 Grim Lavamencer
4 Painters Servant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
3 Figure Of Destiny
2 Taurean Mauler

2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyroblast
1 Bood Moon
1 Chrome Mox
2 Jitte
2 Lightening Bolt
4 Grindstone
3 Sensei's Diving Top

SB
2 Lightening Bolt
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Magma Jet
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Blood Moon
1 Taurean Mauler
2 Shattering Spree
2 Pithing Needle

i am not really sold on the SB though.
Any one played IR in a tour recently ?

sroncor1

08-21-2010, 10:43 PM

I know I haven't posted in a while as Medical School has kept me busy. i have played every so often and I top eight at 2 of the 3 Legacy Opens in Baltimore. I just missed top 8 today. i have been working on the deck a bit and I'm fairly happy with the build I've been running.
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 painter's servant
4 magnus of the Moon
3 FoD
3 SSG
1 jaya ballard
2 Blood Moon
4 REB
2 Pyroblast
3 Chrome Mox
4 Grindstone
3 Cruel Tutor
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Badlands
4 city of Traitors
4 Ancient Tombs
1 Swamp

Side
4 trinisphere
2 pyroblast
1 Boneshredder
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Stingscouger
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Blood Moon
3 Perish

Today I beat storm, elf combo, goblins, and belcher. I lost to a rock deck, and survival madness. The rock deck was extreamely lucky to win the match as i had him at 1 life for 4 turns and I needed a creature of Lightning bolt to win, or a grindstone to mill him. Game three I landed first turn Blood Moon and proceded to not draw another land while he dropped two mox diamonds and had time to dig and get the grip. Oh well. For survival I'm not sure what happened. It was my first time playing against it and I think I kept suboptimal hands. Def. think that match is winnable. Their guys just aren't scary and they run 8 relevant spells of disruption.
On to the changes. Perish is a house against zoo, and elf combo but that deck sucks. I finally found some cards worth siding in against zoo in place of the REB. I could take or leave the Cruel Tutors. they didn't decide any games on the day. I like the chance at tutoring, and I like the black splash. I will say the swamp is sometimes awkward but it did not cause problems today. Trinisphere was a life saver. i know the meta is a little off as there was lots of combo and red decks. There were also 5 merfolk and some decks with shitty mana bases, but I didnt't play any of them.
I think overall I'm comfortable with the deck. i doubt I would play a version without another set of tutors other than the Imperial Recruiters. In my testing the black has really helped the zoo match up though. I'm not sure if the Boneshredder belongs in the board but I like the versatility. It could be pulled for any number of utility artifacts though. I think stingscourger needs to be there though with all the eldrazi and big shits running around and Perish can handle Progenitis.
Lightning Bolt was and still is a house. Yes it is week against combo and Show and Tell decks, but every other deck it is great against. I think tops could sub in for the Cruel Tutors, but I urge everyone to try the Perish route out. I;ve been having great results against zoo. i actually don't feel frowntown when I have to play it anymore.
FoD I understand why people may not want it, but it's versatility is unmatched. Without it lackeys and the like can be problematic and I really don't see how you can go the beat down route. they serve as a great clock under moon effects and really add to the dynamic nature of the deck. although I think they do in a way make the deck harder to play bc they open more lanes of attack. With all the eldrazi floating around, solely hoping to combo out isnt always an option. That is waht Welders do. yeah they make the grindstone combo stronger, but the combo isn't as strong as it was 2 yerars ago. I think the deck is still really strong, but we can't be hoping to pull off the combo as much as in the past. To many decks are running main deck answers. Just my two cents. If anyone has nay question or comments I would love to talk about this stuff.

wolfstorm

08-22-2010, 02:23 AM

Played with 2 welder's in the board this weekend at our local tournament and ended up siding them in every game.. Such a strong card would recommend that if you aren't playing them already to at least try them.

Also about Emrakul, Just run Faerie Macabre in the SB or 1 copy in the MB - easy or Ravenous trap.

sroncor1

08-22-2010, 06:10 AM

Also about Emrakul, Just run Faerie Macabre in the SB or 1 copy in the MB - easy or Ravenous trap.[/QUOTE]
I undersatnd how to beat the deck, but if they run 3+ Eldrazi, then the Fairie will not get there. Just hoping to combo off is not that great of a position to be in. I only brought it up b/c I think the deck needs an alternative game plan. If the welder plan is working for you I say continue it, all I know is that he is a strong card that always felt win more to me. I have tested him out extensively over a year ago when the combo aspect of the deck was stronger. But since there are huge fatties floating around that love to reshuffle decks, the combo is still strong, just not as strong.

I may or may not go back to the tops in my deck. I do love the card and miss it a lot. I realized that I really wanted it a midragainstange decks. Keeping your hand full of good stuff and preventing them from making you discard said good stuff would def help. It has been a while since I've played tops as i started to push having tutors in the deck and i have liked them overall to find singleton wers.and Running tops would require me to change the board and prob drop ensnaring bridge and amongst others.
@Drew-I think the beat down plan against the show and tell decks is the best way to go. Slow down their mana with moons and hope to blast the show and tell or get jaya online while beating with figures. That is the most success I have had is sticking to that. The Faerie Macabre for me hasn't work bc they have 3+ Eldrazi. That is why I added a Crypt to the board and may add another one.

Renato

08-28-2010, 06:54 PM

Hey buddies,

Which sideboard do you made against Enchantress?

B0W53R

08-29-2010, 09:54 AM

Enchantress can stop you with 1) Solitary Confinement 2) Runed Halo 3) Leyine of Sanctity. All white cards. You can blast them if Sterling Groves aren't involved, but if they are your best bet is Anarchy.

HAVE HEART

08-29-2010, 06:35 PM

I am definitely curious about how these conclusions were reached since I basically believe the complete opposite.

From my experience, resolving a Moon is NOT game over by itself at all. If you don't get a first turn Moon on the play, the opponent can fetch a basic or play a Hierarch (reason number ???? for Jet/Bolt). Figure is an excellent way to complement the Moon plan, especially in a deck that can pump it faster than any other. Figures are a 1cc win condition or a 1cc decoy to draw removal away from your Painters. Seems good to me.

I think Hollywood already addressed the Jet/Bolt issue, but I would add that Jet specifically works really well with Top to dig for the combo, a Blast or just filter away junk.

If you find that to be the case, then packing a deck with 8x Moon effects in the 75 probably should not be the plan. The deck is called Imperial Painter, but Blood Moon effects (plus ~8x REB) are what gives it game against competitive decks (read: Blue decks). Just from watching Billy play the deck a bunch, it seems to me the Painter/Grindstone bit is just to crush the shitty decks.

sroncor1

08-29-2010, 07:30 PM

I would not worry about enchantress. You can't be better than ever deck and you are faster than they are. Bring in the full complement of blast effects and go into combo mode. Sterling grove and solitary confinement are the only cards that should really concern you. It may be a deck in your meta, but I really wouldn't have cards just for it. There are plenty of splash cards though. I did love anarchy some time ago, but it really is too slow and conditional most of the time. getting better in the zoo match up might be a stronger move for you and the deck in general. Hoever you could always run more EE in the board as the card is so strong if you splash a color. That with Jaya allow you to get around just about everything other than a double sterling grove, solitary confinement soft lock. I hope this helps.

Mr.C

08-30-2010, 04:48 AM

Nice to see the deck won an SCG Open:

Maindeck:

Artifacts
3 Aether Spellbomb
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Grindstone
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
1 Sensei's Divining Top

Artifact Creatures
4 Painter's Servant

Creatures
1 Auriok Salvagers
1 Goblin Welder
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Trinket Mage

Instants
4 Brainstorm
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
3 Thirst For Knowledge

Artifact Lands
1 Ancient Den
1 Great Furnace

Basic Lands
2 Island
1 Mountain

Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Flooded Strand
1 Plateau
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Sun Titan
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Meloku the Clouded Mirror
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Firespout

Thoughts on the list? I like the inclusion of Salvagers and Welder. I think this may be a new direction for the deck (i.e. using Recruiter as a toolbox enabler).

ramanujan

08-30-2010, 08:16 AM

The version that just won the Starcitygames tournament had surprise factor. Force of Will in the main. LEDs to fuel the finish or provide the alternate finish. This deck is a pile of tutors, especially when bouncing the Trinket Mage or Recruiter with the spellbomb. I hope that this list, or one close to it, is here to stay because it has the flexibility and searching that a two card combo oriented deck needs. I cannot wait to try the list out. Forces as the only protection seems risky, but perhaps all the tutoring and recurring will make me sing a different tune.

This deck, by that I mean this version of the deck, is now the most expensive deck in Legacy. Lands decks which run two Tabernacle will be more, but the more common one Tabernacle variant Lands deck will be less expensive.

Renato

08-30-2010, 10:04 AM

Thx for the replys on enchantress.

As for Ken Adams list (SCG champion) I am with ramanujan - at first glance it seems a pile of tutors and I dont understand his sideboard (Sun Titan?). I want to test it.

sroncor1

08-30-2010, 09:54 PM

Yeah I want to try it out, if only b/c I love sun titan. I almost thought about playing standard just for him. Not sure though how is better then another welder though. I had been meaning to post a mini primer for the deck, since the front page hadn't been updated in a while. Then med school got he better of me. I have some work to go on it and I would be willing to finish it up one of these nights I'm on call. I have spent extensive time testing mono red and different splashes. Not saying I'm the best or anything, but I feel I'm competent, and I've spent far to long with the deck. If a few people would be interested in reading it ill be happy to post it. If nothing else I may be able to say some people from some of my failed experiments.

Seth

thorin_the_king

08-31-2010, 11:51 AM

i like a lot the tutoring power and the 2 combos in one of the winning list of SCG Minneapolis (with the rising of Emrakul decks it's a good idea to play bomberman with painter) though i dislike that he dropped moos effects and blasts from his list.

maybe we can put a WR list with welder and auriok and moon effects and using enightened tutor to fecth all the pieces that trinket fetched?? I will try to do some testing and share with you the results.

@sroncor1: I will be a lot interested in reading yoour primer, knowing that you have made a lot of results with the deck and also that you have been tryng to splash blue white and black, it would be great to have all that compilled in the opening post or anywhere.

Many people have sold his recruiters before GP: Columbus with all the Alluren hype and i was tempted too, but i love this deck much more than any other in legacy and i would like to continue going competitive with it. Let's try to resharp this swiss army knife again!

Thorin

P.S I also love sun titan!!! wish he could be 2/6 to be fetchable with recruiter :)

Malchar

08-31-2010, 03:22 PM

Sorry for being ignorant, but when would you want to side-in sun titan, Meloku, and Jace?

Also, from experience, I know that moon is really good, but I think that using Force of Will is simply a stronger choice. Dragon Stompy came and went, and now we're left with a variety of FoW-supported combo decks. This combo deck ought to include FoW to help level the playing field. Perhaps the most disappointing loss is the red blasts, which often acted as counterspell backup, but once we've decided to run blue we gain access to our choice of daze, spell pierce, and the like.

sroncor1

09-01-2010, 09:31 PM

Well Jace is basically always awesome. I would think he is strongest vs the non aggro match ups though. In Bant survival he is even good against zoo. he would be strong vs. rock decks along with mid range piles also.

I'm still lost on when you side in the Sun Titan, and i guess it would be against rock decks. They have slow clocks so you can hit 6 mana and at that point you start getting combo pieces back and they should not have enough removal. That is all theory.

A quick aside about the splashes, all three colors have something to offer and each one, along with mono red have advantages in certain metas. I actually have all the cards sleeved up to change the splash or go mono when I show up at every event and look around to see what I see. The white splash is by far the fastest, with blue giving you the most reach and really sticking it to tempo and control decks with blue. The black list I like the most right now mainly for the board. I may not actually play any black cards in the main, but Perish has been incredibly strong against zoo and the like. That is the biggest reason to run it. In all my testing I think running Cruel Tutor has cost me two games that Enlightened would have won me the game. And It has won me the game once when Enlightened Tutor would not have been able to do it. However the sideboard is stronger for the current landscape I think if you run black. Since I upped the lands to 19, I have found the mana base to be extremely consistent. Ill elaborate more when i get that post up. I have a little to work on and i hope to get it up within the week.

Seth

martyr

09-02-2010, 09:42 AM

The deck was thrown together in the 20 minutes before the tournament started, and while Ken had the maindeck down pretty cold, I got the feeling the sideboard was a pretty random pile. I could be wrong, you'd have to ask him, but Sun Titan isn't tutor-able, and Jace as a one-of seems odd. Meloku is the best non-combo, 2 power-or-less win condition the deck has access to, being able to fly over moat and scale up his offensive power as the turns go by, as well as being immune to opposing Firespouts. Llawan and Faerie Macabre all tutor-able hosers, as are Tormod's Crypt, Pithing Needle, and Engineered Explosives.

I suppose Sun Titan might be a sort of end-game F@#$ you plan for board control randomness? Like, if his creatures all get blown up for the first 20 turns or whatever, Sun Titan just repeatedly buys them back? Or it was just a slot he needed to fill.

Malchar

09-02-2010, 04:03 PM

Some other sideboard toolbox options that I have preferred in the past include Fledgling Dragon and Silent Arbiter. Hopefully we will get some interesting 1cc artifacts for our tutor package in the next set. Personally, I still like the idea of using some equipment as a backup plan, but I must admit that this list looks quite good as-is. I couldn't justify including any equipment unless I could tutor for it with Trinket Mage. Also, I would like to say that Goblin Welder is extremely fun. I have been using him in my mono red list. It's probably at its best in that list because you have Chrome Moxes to weld, but it's very fun just to mess up your opponent's artifacts on the outside chance that they use more than one.

Rath

09-03-2010, 09:55 AM

I would probably have swapped out the Sun Titan for a Silent Arbiter in the sideboard, as it is tutor-able, colorless (easy to cast) and still has a solid impact on the game. I tended to have one in my mono-red sideboard. However, I also did not win an event with the deck *grin*

With the blue splash, I could see Meloku having a lot of power. Big Jace is just awesome, and a 3-in-1 threat (card selection, bounce, fatesealing)... however, more than 1 or 2 would seem a waste for me. I read someone saying he should be maindecked, but that just seems to detract from this deck's game 1. I could see having two in the sideboard, as it allows you to react to their deck and change plans with minimal card swaps. If you wanted to add one in the main deck, you could do so in place of a grindstone or LED.

thorin_the_king

09-09-2010, 11:51 AM

finally moon decks have a good planeswalker to toy with!!!

what do you think of Koth for this deck?

for reference
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110398&d=1284004936

ryO!

09-09-2010, 12:04 PM

it seems sick . . . i mean the PW as for the inclusion of it i think it definitely worth a try.

thorin_the_king

09-09-2010, 12:14 PM

i'm really liking it the more i think of him. He starts putting pressure like a figure of destiny the turn it comes into play, allows you to reach the 6 mana to combo in the same turn, and if reaching the ultimate it turns our lands in pingers for the rest of the game...

it's really nice :). I have to start testing him in order to confirm if he's that good

cwt1220

09-09-2010, 12:15 PM

I am definitely going to give him a shot, he seems pretty nasty. Another card for opponents to focus their burn/counter/removal on. Really helps with aggro plan that I am a huge fan of.

-Chris-

Malchar

09-09-2010, 02:06 PM

The PW seems great for the mono-red build that also uses moons. I also like using equipment with that build to bolster the aggro strategy. I'm looking forward to some equipment in the new mirrodin expansion. It's too bad that you can't use the PW to make 4/4 blockers though. Otherwise, I would be happy to use it with a white or blue splash in more of a combo/control build.

thorin_the_king

09-09-2010, 07:06 PM

maybe it's time to play more pump creatures like figure of destiny or kargan dragonlord to make something with the mana he nets you with its -2 abbility. I don't know exactly what he would replace in a standard mono red build of IP to start testing the hell out of it. Anyone of the good IP players would like to share a starting point list for us?

sroncor1

09-09-2010, 08:57 PM

I'll hopefully have my mini primer up in a few days, I've just been getting slammed during my intern year of residency.

I think the new planeswalker could be really powerful. Not sure how he would strengthen some matchups though. I'll have to test against Zoo but he def. makes Figure stronger. He plays great with Moon effects, and serves as another kill against mid range and control decks. He def. will help with the rock matchup as he blanks their creature removal and they only have 4 cards that are super versatile(Vindicate or Malstrom Pulse). Deed doesn't hit which is huge. Currently I would think the Top/tutor slot for two of them might be the best try initially. Otherwise there isn't much we can remove from the list I think as it is pretty tight and everything has a reason in the deck. You could try and remove the Figures as they sort of serve the same roll, just a little slower. I'll try a few things, but the hard part will be getting two or three of these guys. Fucking starcity is selling them for 50 bucks. It ain't jace.

Seth

thorin_the_king

09-09-2010, 09:04 PM

he will drop i think to 20-24 after initial hype. It's only good when you play him alongside a lot of mountains, which means essentially mono red decks. here's hoping it so i can buy a couple of them :)

Malchar

09-10-2010, 05:38 PM

Figure of Destiny is probably the weakest card in the mono-red list. Unfortunately, it just happens to work quite well with this new planeswalker. Also, it's a nice rule in general to try and keep as many creatures as possible when adding planeswalkers to a deck. A likely alternative would be to cut down the number of spirit guides or moxes in order to increase the consistency of the deck. Besides, this guy helps to boost your mana anyway. Also, it's not like you'd necessarily want to run 4x of this guy.

I don't think that you'll ever end up having too much mana in the mono-red list. You're already a little cramped for mana, and I don't think prioritizing the -2 ability is very good unless you actually have cause to use the mana. In general, if you're not going to play two things, pump the figure, or activate a grindstone, then you can feel good about doing the +1 ability and attacking for 4 or just passing. Like I said the real shame is that the 4/4 can't block for you, but I'll take whatever I can get. If you end up getting to use the ultimate, then it's a great alternate win condition which meshes well with the aggro strategy that already exists in the mono-red list.

With the inclusion of this planeswalker in the mono-red list, it probably precludes any possibility of using equipment in the list. Personally, I love Sword of Light and Shadow and think it's quite underused in general. Unfortunately, it doesn't really seem like the sword fits into the deck anymore because with planeswalkers I would favor using more bodies with less support.

thorin_the_king

09-20-2010, 02:38 PM

another interesting card i think that at least can deserve some attention in this deck, but oppsoite to koth this is made for a more controlish version of the deck:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110842&d=1284975284
this + gorilla shaman, viashino heretic, goblin vandal or any artifact hate we have in red is awesome. it's another way to vindicate permanents aside from painter blasts and we can hold them back for protection. i would love to do t1 gorilla shaman t2 this and start nuking a land each turn for :1: :cool:

if they do play a single artifact then goblin welder can be a pain in the ass for them cause we can exchange any artifact they have for any permanent they play :smile:

thoughts on it?

@sroncor1: how have you been doing with your primer man?

@everyone: anyone is still playing the deck in tourneys?

wolfstorm

09-22-2010, 06:51 PM

I still love this deck but haven't had a chance to play it at any major tournament lately(last one being the Dallas 5k).. I went 3-1 at my local store a couple weeks ago (last time I got to play legacy :( ) WTB SAN ANTONIO LEGACY SCENE PST PLZ

Also the bomberman version intrigues me a ton, seems like it has a lot of strength but I'm not to entirely sure how the merfolk match is with that version and if its worth sacrificing the blasts for it.

Malchar

09-22-2010, 09:11 PM

The image isn't showing up for me, but I assume that you're talking about Liquimetal Coating. The combo doesn't even add anything new to the deck. We can already vindicate for R with painter + blast/jaya. Adding two more cards and trying to assemble all the pieces isn't worth it. Besides, worst-case scenario the painter combo turns into vindicate anything whereas best-case scenario you win outright with grindstone. Even with vindicate for 1, you're a long way from actually winning in this format consisting of Swords to Plowshares and a plethora of zoo creatures with cmc 1.

sroncor1

09-23-2010, 10:33 AM

About the primer, sorry it has taken me so long. I have gotten slammed at the hospital and I havent even played in an event in over a month. I did spend some time playtesting for Starcitygames Baltimore open and that took up a lot of my free time. And I tried out Koth in a lot of situations. He is very strong. Right now I think he is the third strongest planeswalker. He does things that we could never do before and he does help in the zoo match up, far more than I thought. I'll try to get my thoughts and notes up by the weekend.

sroncor1

09-28-2010, 09:06 AM

Primer will be up tonight. I'm currently finishing it up at the hospital, It sits at 7 pages typed and I'm just getting through all the matchups. i hope this helps people with bboarding, building the deck, and playing it. I'll be more than happy to answer any questions anyone has.

sroncor1

09-28-2010, 05:11 PM

I’m going to start this off talking about the core cards in the deck. Imperial Painter is one of the hardest decks to play due to its varied plans of attack and not really having a dedicated draw/cantrip engine to smooth draws out. It can combo, control, and play the aggro role depending on your opening hand and the matchup. How you build the deck also can help determine this obviously, and once I get through the possible cards and card choices I’ll post my current decklist and go into matchups. I’ve been playing the deck for nearly two years now and I am still learning the best plans of attack in certain match ups. But it is a deck that with tight game play you can really hang with any other deck in the format. I know most of you are thinking that zoo is a nightmare, and it was but I have really liked the black splash and it has moved that match up to about even. Many of you may not have played the deck, but back when Fairie Stompy was still playable, it had almost all even or good matchups, but you had to play the deck tightly. Imperial painter is sort of like that, except we have a nice little combo and we eat merfolk.

Basic cards: I’m not going to talk about why these cards are played. They form the core of the deck and are pretty much staples. Basically have them in your deck.
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter’s Servant
6 Blast effects(you can be cute and do a 3 and 3 split but it doesn’t fucking matter)
3 grindstone
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Chrome Mox
3 SSG
18 lands(we’ll get into specifics later)
for a total of 45, giving you 15 cards to customize the deck. But to be truthful it comes down to more like 3 or 4 cards.

Deck Construction:
Let’s start with mana first. The earlier builds use to run 3-4 chrome mox with 4 SSG and 18 lands. Personally, and I know many others feel the same way, but 3 Chrome Mox is the right number. 18 lands feels right in a mono red shell, with 8 of those being 2 mana lands(ancient tombs and city of traitors). I never ran fetches with a mono red build, but I know others have and they can speak to the success or failure to that idea. On a fundamental level it doesn’t really thin your deck out and I can go over the math you if you like, but its not a strong enough advantage to compensate for the occasional stifle and life loss, which isn’t insignificant with ancient tomb in the deck. I will add this disclaimer being that this is more theory than testing, but I know the math favors no fetches. With a splash then 4 on color fetches should be played. 2 of the required dual lands should suffice. This gives you 4 basic mountains.
I currently run 19 lands due to stability issues and I have found that to be the best for me. Now we need to address the issue of having the off color basic. If you are splashing white it really is a no brainer as you can still power up Figure with it. The other splashes are more difficult to determine. Wasteland is a significant threat in the format and it sucks having a tutor stuck in your hand when you have your opponent under moon effects. Typically I will have a basic swamp or island if I am running main deck off color cards. Your Figures become slightly weaker but you get access to more answers and thus more flexibility. I feel that the trade off is worth it, but your mileage may vary. That will bring the land count up to 19, from the 18 I mentioned earlier, giving us 14 cards to work with moving forward.
Next I want to address Lightning Bolt. In short you need to play 4 main deck in the current field. I know on the outside it looks week and ordinary. Its fucking lightning bolt can’t we do something fancier or sexy. The problem is that it does its job better than any card printed. Almost every deck in the format as a card you would gladly trade with our one mana instant. Bob, pridemage, natal, lords, shitty merfolk lords, meddling mage, weird elves( off the top of my head I have no idea where to aim in this matchup, but I think the proper target you will spot trying to do something broken) just to name a few. They blow up man lands and serve as a great answer to planeswalkers. Even tendrils decks can’t go below 4 life as the have to respect the bolt. Yes I will admit that sometimes he is underwhelming, but you will almost always gain tempo with it or at least fuck up combat math. So we are down to 10 cards in the deck to play with.
Now we will address the controllish elements of the deck. Zoo is good. That should come as no surprise to anyone. People love to play with 50 dollar lands. Moon stops all that. I personally run 2 blood moon effects main deck currently. They are rarely dead and in those rare instances they can be imprinted, sided out, or pitched to Jaya ballard. Even against Merfolk they are strong because Merfolk have started to splash and they stop mutavault. Moon effects are one of those cards that you want to see it immediately or not at all so 6 is a good number. I would try and fit 7 total moon effects but there is diminishing returns and an increase in the dead cards in hand, not to mention the final deck list is fairly tight. The other controllish card I want to address is Jaya Ballard. This is more of a personal preference more than anything. I recommend having a tutorable answer to the random shit you will see. Viashino heretic is another very strong option, but his scope is limited. Jaya can beat enchanters. She can beat planeswalkers. She can beat artifacts. She gives the deck reach and more utility. You could sub Vexing Shusher in if countertop is big in your area, but most of the time she can handle those decks just as well. And she kicks countertop decks in the nuts to boot. So we are are now down to 7 cards available in the deck.
Lets now address the tutorable targets in the deck. Personally, beaters are some of the strongest choices you can make. Sometimes the combo isn’t there and you need something to seal the deal uder a moon lock. Figure of destiny is one of the best for this. In the past I have tested out cards such as dragon whelp, stuffy doll, and wildfire emissary(more on him and some other creatures later), but the figure is cheap, fast, and fits the curve nice;y. Not to mention he gives you 7 maindeck answers to goblin lackey, which you need to prepare for as goblins is still a top tier deck. A lot of decks will blow removal on him as soon as he becomes 4/4 which is great usually as we have better creatures that you want to keep alive. I originally played 4 but that number has been cut down to 3 which feels right more than anything. He is there in your opening grip often enough and you don’t get to many games where you are stuck with many figures, although it is really doubtful that they will be clogging your hand as they are such efficient creatures. So with 3 in our deck we are down to 4 cards left in the deck. See what I mean when I say there isn’t much wiggle room left in the deck.
In these last four spots you have to run the fourth grindstone in the deck, if you do not run any tutor effects.. I really think only the blue splash can support 3 grindstones, but in theory so could a black or white as you still effectively run 6 grindstones and everyone blows up everything else before the grindstone. The combo may not be as strong as it once was, but consistently getting it within the first four turns is still vital to the decks success especially when you have to combat other combo decks. Yes multiples of the card do suck, but much like the moon effects you want it early if your going to get it. Sometimes it is hard to set up for the combo and wait for the grindstone. It happens. And sometimes you grind them them out to find an Eldrazi in the yard and you lost the game.
So now we have 3 crads left in the deck. It is here you should decide if you want to splash. In my opinion the best cards to splash are enlightened tutor, trinket mage, and cruel tutor. Each card has its strength and weaknesses as does each color. So to address these points I’m going to do it color by color:

White: You get enlightened tutor and Figure is stronger to be powered up by the basic plains you run. Engineered explosives is a card you may want to run in the sideboard, as it provides you with a tutorable target to deal with random shit. Overall the card leads to consistent combos and instant speed is great. Its weaknesses are that your opponent knows what you got and that it is one mana, which sometimes is a boon and other times a hazard. White also gives you absolute law out of the board. This card does help out a lot in the zoo match up. It allows you to blank a lot of their removal and chump block all day as you set up [ for the combo. I did find that it made the match up better, possibly pushing zoo to a 55/45 split in their favor, depending on the build.
Blue: Blue gives you trinket mage and along with that a nice tutor set. I typically ran 4 trinket mages, 3 grindstone, 1 EE, 1 Top while moving Jaya to the board in those list. Blue is strongest in a tempo oriented meta game. Back when Canadian thresh decks were popular along with new horizons, it was probably the best color combination. Often times you would just win by beating with your tutors as those decks had to answer what you tutored first and they did not have enough answers. Those decks have really started to wane in popularity so this option is not as strong anymore. It typically has the slowest combo speed, but more versatility putting you in the control role more often. I also explored tutorable blue creatures, but none really tickled my fancy. Sower was great but hard to consistently land. The new blue lord in interesting and requires some testing, although I think he also requires reworking the deck but it is an interesting card. A noteworthy card though is also man o war. It serves as a tutorable answer to eldrazi which is worth keeping in the back of your mind as you build.
Black: Black gives you cruel tutor and perish, with perish in the board being the main reason to run black. After three events with cruel tutor and a couple months testing I can say playing it instead of the other cards addressed has only lost me one game where an enlightened tutor would have won it. It has set me up though to win multiple games due to its ability to grab anything in your deck. I can’t really advocate that it is stronger than enlightened tutor due to its drawbacks, but it is a good card that should be looked at. I want to note here that I am talking about two cards that have inherent card disadvantage. At a recent event a good player tried to tell me that he would run trinket mage instead of the other two tutors due to card disadvantage. People it is not 1996 anymore, card disadvantage is ok, jut not king. Who the fuck cares if your opponent has one extra card in hand if you’ve won the game. Tempo matters, consistency matters, and sometimes these things trump card advantage. Hell even in limited sometimes card disadvantage is ok if you take out a card of superior quality. This really is something to address in a whole post, but I don’t want you picking trinket mage due to card advantage. As noted above, it helps in the tempo matches as you can just grind pout those games. Now back top black. The main reason to run black is for Perish. The card is sooooooo strong right now. One sided wrath of gods against zoon sound great. It helps in the midrange decks also as they pretty much only run green dorks so it serves as a top deck answer to a bad board state, something we never had before. It handles Knights of the Reliquary so well, that I don’t mind blowing it just to kill one and nothing else. This is the reason why I am still running black as of this posting. It also hits prognitus and survival madness pretty hard, and I hear that deck may be fairly popular these days. The only real question lies in how many in the board. Right now I’m playing 3, but that was when I was extensively testing 3 Cruel Tutors in the main, which I no longer am doing so I might up it to four.
The other card that needs to be discussed is the top. It is an incredibly strong card that helps fix some of the problems of card quality and selection that I addressed earlier. I love the card and have alternated from 3 to 0 and all the numbers in between. If I was playing in an event before Koth becomes legal I would most definitely run 3 with the black splash. Unfortunately I will not be playing in an event before then, so top is out. But if you do choose it, it may be the right choice for your meta. If you have lots of slow decks and rock decks by all means run it as those are the match ups where it is brightest. Me I play with lots of zoo, combo, and merfolk which it really is not that useful in those matchups versus what I plan to run.
For me the final 3 cards start with 2 Koth. We finally get a Planeswalker for the deck. This crad is so strong. Initially I thought he would only excel in the controllish matchups but he really is a house against zoo even. They have to spend time and resources destroying him otherwise he dominates the board and they can not attack through and he serves as a win condition. Currently I’m running two and he has strengthen so many matchups. Rock decks and the like only have 4 main deck answers to him and most likely one or two will be blown trying to keep you from winning earlier. The reach he provides red is amazing to say the least. He literally is the best card printed for this deck since Painter’s servant. I highly encourage all of you to test him and see what you think. Strength he could be the second strongest planeswalker if he wasn’t double red. For us that doesn’t matter so he is amazing.
That leaves us with one card, which to be honest I haven’t settled on it yet. I have tried things from addition beaters(dragon whelp, Figure number 4, and Wildfire Emissary) and they all have strengths and weaknesses. In that group the one I like most is Wildfire as he helps your weak matchups namely zoo and rock decks while largely not changing the others which is ok with me. In a random meta the best card to run is probably Stingscorger. He is strong and versatile and you will see Eldrazi at any event bigger than three rounds. A second Jaya could be added as that card is always good. Shard Phoenix is an option if zoo and goblins, especially goblins, is big in your area. He is a little slow but strong when you hit turn five. I want to address Spinal Villain here. I love the idea of the card. I love its picture, hell I have three copies I would love to play, but the card does not belong in this deck. Without painter he is only good against merfolk and you already dominate that match up so don’t waste the spots. As noted earlier card advantage isn’t the only thing that matters. Jaya does what he does at the expense of a card, but she is never dead. Turning every card into incinerate is really good. If you have the urge to play the spinal villain, just run another copy of Jaya as she really is just a superior card. Currently I am not sure what the final card in my deck will be. I know it will not be top as one seems to random. I’ll give you a list and in what metas they would be the best decision:
1. Viashino Heretec- Deals with artifacts. If you see a lot other than top he is worth pursuing. He is also great versus merfolk and goblins as aether vial is a pain in the ass.
2. Wildfire Emissary-Strongest against zoo and rock type decks. Your mileage may vary depending on the builds of both but being able to blank the best and most popular removal in the format is really nice. Not to mention that they will most likely have to tie up multiple resources trying to take him out frees up time for you to combo. He also plays nice with Koth and moon effects. And I have a soft spot for him since 1997 when he was considered one of the best creatures printed. Think of him as a 3 drop though due to our double mana lands.
3. Vexing Shusher-If you see a lot of blue that isn’t merfolk. He is efficient and great at what he does, but that is very limited. Don’t forget his ability can be stifled
4. Shard phoenix- A beating against goblins. Strength varies depending on the zoo configuration. Awesome against elves although he is a little slow there. A card you should always keep in mind as he serves as an answer to the weenie hordes and is tutorable.
5. Spinal Villain- Already addressed
6. Figure- Another beater. Better than the dragonlord at what he does since instant speed can not be undervalued as we play many instants.
7. Dragon Whelp- A tutorable flyer is really nice. Early builds used him and I did like the card. Unfortunately I cant picture a meta where he is stronger than the cards previously mentioned.
8. Stingscourger- Mentioned above, but very versatile and should be in the 75 someplace at least.
9. Boneshedder-I really like this guy and depending what your meta is like he can really help out against show and tell decks and reanimator(if that is still played).
A note about equipment. Some people use it and love it. I never have in this deck but I can see a lot of positives with it. I haven’t tested it as I think it will take the deck down a more aggro road, which is not a place I think it needs to go right now. That being said, I would love to discuss this further with others and talk about their testing. Currently I can’t see how I would fit more than one in the deck and that seems random, but random jitt or SoFI could be totally awesome.

The deck I’m running as of 10/2010
4 Imperial Recruiters
4 Painter’s Servant
4 Magus of the Moon
3 SSG
3 Figure of Destiny
1 Jaya Ballard
1 Wildfire Emissary
4 Grindstone
3 Chrome mox
4 REB
2 Pyroblast
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Koth
2 Blood Moon
5 Mountains
2 Badlands( I was sad to switch out blue and white as I lost my FBB to unlimited but oh well)
4 Blood Stained Mire
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

Side
2 Blood Moon
2 Pyroblast
2 Tormod’s Crypt
4 Trinisphere
3 Perish
1 Boneshredder ( Could easily be fourth Perish)
1 Stingscouger

I’m not going to discuss individual choices for the board here, but I am open to it, but it is def something that is flexible at best.

Matchups:
1. Merfolk- I’ll go 70/30 even though I think it is better. I have never lost a sanctioned match against the folk and I have played some solid players including Starcity open winner Paul Lynch, who is also a really great guy btw. You have to much removal and they only have one counter spell that you care about. Multiple standstills may make it hard and if the Kira times 4 happens things become rougher, but you can still combo right through most of what they have. Jaya is an all-star here. For the board I go – 2 Blood Moon, + 2 Pyroblast. Its that easy. You really shouldn’t have many problems. If they splash then moon effects are stronger and you can switch out one Wildfire(If the splash isn’t white) and a chrome mox. Keep the SSG in as they allow for unfair things and frown town from the opponent when they think daze actually worked. I actually think the black version is the strongest in general, it just happens to be the weakest against us. Swords can complicate things but we have counters and they can’t island walk us. Overall a fairly easy match up. You don’t have to be too aggressive with mulligans but your opening hand will determine which role you pursue. All three avenues are affective against the blue fish.
2. Zoo- Ever so slightly in their favor, but a lot of that depends on build to be honest. I really feel if we could fit 3-4 magma jets in the board this matchup might actually swing in our favor slightly but right now I don’t know what to remove except the crypts but they really help out in other matches. In general the beat down role is not that effective here. Try to lock them out or slow them down with moon effects and then combo out. That really seems to be the best strategy. Try to draw out their removal with Figures, Jaya, and magus leaving painter to live. Early moon effects really matter with Blood Moon being the best. Of course you still need to put preasure on them. For boarding I recommend -6 blast effects, + 3 Perish, +2 Blood Moon, +Stingscorger. The Stingscourger is a little odd here I know, but blast effects and calling blue is generally bad as they can board in blast effects( In truth you want them too). He can slow the beats down, reset a grim lavamancer, or buy you two turns from goyf beat down saving a substantial amount of life. In this match up it is sort of a war of attrition. An early moon effect can really carry you. Koth shines here also. They have to try and kill him and pull out all the stops to do so. In that time you can spend your energies moving closer to establishing the combo. Don’t be afraid to Perish for only two creatures. You want to keep your life total as high as possible and 2 for 1 is still great. Just don’t get greedy.
3. Countertop- there are a lot of variants, but the more colors they run the easier it is for you. Even the thopter foundry versions are fairly straightforward for you to beat. Moon effects have various levels of success with early being better than late. The question that comes up is due you attack the counterbalance or fight through it. That is not an answer question to answer. It really depends on your hand. If you already have 2 Figures on the board fuck it and go for the throat. Imperial Recruiter for Jaya is strong as they don’t have many 3 drops to float and you can force them to top and blast the counterbalance. In general though I would say point a blast effect at the counterbalance if they tap out or try to counter it. Boarding is pretty simple. Lightning bolt is fairly mundane in this matchup so – 2 bolts for + 2 blast effects. If they run thopter take out the other two bolts and bring in crypts. Yes they can easily play around them, but we aren’t using them to blow them out, only to buy time. If it slows down their board development for a turn and makes them commit mana they otherwise wouldn’t spend then great it did its job. In general a fast combo will take this one as will moon lock down. Koth again shines in this matchup. Jace doesn’t affect him and since ours comes on line faster we win. They really have no way to attack him so play around force and you should be golden. You run more counters then they do and since our curve is effectively 3 you are not as prone to losing to the soft lock of counterbalance. I will not put a number on this matchup, but I will say with some practice it should def be favorable, with certain builds being far easier than others.
4. Lands- It’s a bad deck and a bye. Moving on.
5. Dredge- It’s a favorable matchup. Probably somewhere north of 60%. Moon effects are great at slowing them down. Blast effects can stop some of their early busted draws. And lightning bolt your own dudes is a great way to get rid of bridge from below. I can’t remember the last time I lost a sanctioned match against dredge. Boarding you can bring in the crypts for Jaya and Wildfire Emissary. Otherwise your standard list is fairly strong against them. Going for the combo is the best means to victory. I haven’t tested this matchup since Koth was added, but nothing should change.
6. Goblins- Goblins is an interesting matchup. Lackeys and weirdings are your main concern here. Lackey does broken shit and we can lose key guys to weirding. Unlike most red based decks they do not have the removal to readily stop your combo. Moon effects are still ok as they keep them off black or green and stop port antics. This should be a favorable matchup, but don’t hesitate to blow up a vial once it gets three counters on it. Its their creatures bigger than 3 mana that are the problem. Lightning bolts are huge here as they take out warchiefs before things get crazy. The aggro route is not a great idea in this matchup. Combo is the strongest and I would focus my efforts there. I don’t really love boarding much of anything here. Maybe perish and turn the board green, but otherwise stick to your stock list. This matchup is even to favorable, depending on what colors they are running.
7. Survival- There are many different builds but I don’t think any of them are really favorable. Bant survival is very unfavorable. Haven’t tested it much since koth came out but good creatures, with Iona, and eldrazi spell hard times for you. Survival madness is another story. Currently I am 2-2 in sanctioned play, but one of those loses were to a built with Progenitus and I milled with lethal on the board and said wtFuck. Stifle is a pain and they are fast, but lightning bolt slows them down and I think normally they combo should work here. Fast moon effects with powered up Figures and Koth will also greatly help. If you get Koth’s ultimate, survival madness can not win.
8. Rock decks- These decks use to be 40/60 at best I would say. I never had much luck with them even with fast moon effects. Sometimes you can catch a bad mana base, but they have so much removal. Koth really changes that. They are still an uphill fight, but he is very hard for them to deal with. Here is another deck where they can not win once his ultimate hits. Unfortunately the board doesn’t have many cards for this matchup. Perish is still strong and worth putting in, but what to take out is harder to say. Bolts are still really strong and painter with REB is also something that can really swing this matchup. Unfortunately REB is dead without painter so I would keep that in mind. You will not win the war of attrition with this deck though. Games 2 and 3 get together as they have grip. Your best bet is to lay an early moon, slow them down, force them to disrupt the combo, then hopefully ride Koth to victory.
9. Combo- Im putting it all together as this is getting to long and really you will approach it all the same. Belcher is fast. You can beat the goblin horde but if they belcher you, you will die. Trinisphere helps out a lot here as it buys you time. Our combo is a turn slower than them. You need to aggressively mulligan in this matchup, really only keeping hands with first turn disruption or second turn kill. Storm decks are much the same except they are slower but more consistent. Our combo is as fast as theirs but theirs is more consistent. Trinisphere serves as a nice slow down but it is not as strong as in the belcher match up. Painter with a blast is another great opener against both decks. For boarding take out -4 bolts and -2 blood moons and bring in the remaining blasts and trinisphere.

I’m already at nine pages so I will end it here. I didn’t discuss cards that didn’t make the cut really, but I would be lad to as time permits. I can go into more depth on the color choices if people want. And if you want more info on matchups and plans of attack I’ll be happy to do what I can.

Seth

Dark Zero

10-10-2010, 03:26 PM

Hey folks!

After finally putting together this deck last week I went 4-1-1 at our monthly legacy event, finishing 4th out of 40 players.
My Matchups were:

1. Mono U Faerie Fish -> Win 2:1
2. Zoo -> Loss 1:2
3. Rock -> Win 2:0
4. Death & Taxes with green -> Win 2:0
5. Zoo -> WIN 2:1
6. Vengevine Madness -> ID

The deck was a blast to play although I only got 2 matchups with U out of my 6 rounds. I played a mono r build with 1 Koth/1 SDT because I couldn't get my hands on a second one and I expected a lot of tempo decks, as usual. But this time there wasn't around so much tempo and merfolk. If the meta continues to develop in this direction I will definitely play the black splash for perish.

Speaking of that, thanks for your huge post/primer, sroncor1. It was a great guideline for me and I want more of that! =D I'm interested in more of that matchup analysis, especially against more of those established, non-dtb decks.

If anybody wants to know more on my matchups please let me know.

comeback

10-11-2010, 05:04 AM

Due to the fact I'm a fan of tutorable targets, I'm testing this deck in its RW variant with the following cards Tutors/Top Deck Manipolator:

- 3x Enlightned Tutors
- 3x Sensei's Divining Top

This week I'll try to put in place and test a list where I can play WW cards without particular problems with moon effects, IF it works we'll be able to play all the targets that are used in Thopter Foundry as:

- Moat
- Humility

instead of single targets as:

- Relic of Progenitus
- Pithing Needle
- Oblivion Ring

About zoo or other aggro decks I've actually exchanged the number of Moon vs Magus, the deck is less aggressive but with the help of Mother of Runes, if we control 1-2 turns there is the possibility to create the new planeswalker emblem that should burn all it's creatures in few turns.

I hope to recognize all these ideas in a playable list!

If we want to play a black splash I would be happy to use a Yixlid Jailer maindeck and tutors again, burning wish are as cool as no mana intensive and we could always have access to our sideboard with cards as:

- peris/firespout
- discard effects
- chainer's edict
- shattering spree

I know these are just ideas but IMHO we need to have always a metagamed build for a top8 chance.

dahcmai

10-12-2010, 04:27 PM

I am missing two recruiters so I just replaced them with Distorting Lenses and it worked out amazingly well. Anyone else ever mess with that card before? It took the place of not being able to tutor up a painter and goes through heavy creature hate better anyway. It's slower and only hits permanents, but it's not horrid and I ended up adding a third since I liked it so well.

If you have the problem with people blasting the painter all the time (ala Zoo), it's well worth the time to try it. At the worst it turns your Blasts into something useful until painter can stick.

kusumoto

10-13-2010, 10:51 AM

comeback

10-13-2010, 11:20 AM

If you have the problem with people blasting the painter all the time (ala Zoo), it's well worth the time to try it. At the worst it turns your Blasts into something useful until painter can stick.

Sorry but these lens doen't works, opponent's library is not a permanent and all other permanents are mainly creatures or hate vs creature so just look for a RW version with Enlightned Tutor, use Mother of Runes and protect your painter's or defenders!

jazzykat

10-13-2010, 11:41 AM

@comeback: Does your deck still need recruiters or are you replacing them with Enlightened Tutor and Top Engine?

kusumoto

10-13-2010, 11:57 AM

Sorry but these lens doen't works, opponent's library is not a permanent and all other permanents are mainly creatures or hate vs creature so just look for a RW version with Enlightned Tutor, use Mother of Runes and protect your painter's or defenders!

He wasn't talking about the libary but rather using it to turn actual permanents blue so that you can blow them up with blasts.

As far as these RW versions go...not really Imperial Painter then is it?

sroncor1

10-13-2010, 02:42 PM

The distorting lens is an interesting idea, but I think it fails on a fundamental level. Sure it activates the blast effects and jaya but it is dead without them. It also doesnt activate the combo which is still important even if the combo is not as strong as it once was.

For the zoo matchup your best bet is to try and win the attrition war. The have good removal but you play a bunch of cards they have to answer immediately. Moon effects are great here and I totally understand a 3/3 split. For me there are still a bunch of match ups where the moon effect isn't as strong and I like at least having a grey oager there.

I feel that once everyone tries koth they will try and put a third in the deck. He really is so strong only being weak in the combo match up.

As noted earlier I love the white splash and it does give you a more consistent combo but for the current meta I would recommend black as it actually improves your chances against those decks which give you trouble. I do not think cards like moat belong in the deck. I may be wrong but double white and coming down fourth turn doesn't seem to really improve any matchups.

I have a ton more notes I'd be happy to type up if you want them about matchups. Might take me a week as school is picking up and I'm going to start regular writing for a magic website soon I hope. But if zoo is popular in your area I suggest using my most recent list. I know it's a small sample size but I went 2-0 against zoo in my most recent event

dahcmai

10-13-2010, 04:29 PM

Figure of destiny was the card I yanked. A couple extra bolts took the place of the others and the Lens took the last spot. I was never big on him.

The lens is good for hurting lands mainly. I typically use it to manascrew people so I buy time to actually get a recruiter or painter. I just hated not having a painter out and having all these dead cards if I was playing against mono-b control or something that the rest of the cards were total dead against. We have a few of them here since Zoo, Goblins, and Dreadstill are played a ton and it's a pretty decent answer for those.

sroncor1

10-14-2010, 08:42 AM

I can see where your coming from although just to activate blast effects seems weak. You mentioned that you have a lot of goblins in your meta, and figure is great in that match up. He buys time on the ground while you assemble the combo. You have to ensure you have sufficent ways to kill a first turn lackey bc otherwise the board can get out of control. Dreadstill should not be a problem. It's not as easy as Merfolk but they only play 4 cards that we care about. Just board in the extra blast effects.

Zoo on the other hand is an interesting idea. Having one mana vindicates that they can not stop seems strong. Having 12 targeted removal against them seems great. That is something I haven't even thought of. It warrants testing for sure. I'm going to try it out this weekend.

kusumoto

10-14-2010, 03:38 PM

I guess one mana vindicates are good against Zoo, but what about the cards from the board?

I use pyroclasm on the board currently. Should this be firespout or is it a wasted slot either way?
I had originally been using pyroclasm since it didn't kill painter, but it doesn't seem to kill much else either anymore.

sroncor1

10-15-2010, 01:40 PM

yeah you have to use firespout now. And your right it kills Painter. But since all their dudes basically have 3 toughness you are stuck. at times you could get two steppe lynx and a grim lavamancer, but by the time they have that much shit on the board your life total is already low and I would be scared of the big green creatures in their hand. You basically need a wrath effect these days to make it really work. To be honest incinerate or chain lightning are both prob. better than pyroclasm anymore.

Mammutti

10-20-2010, 05:04 PM

Hello, dear Imperial Painter fans! I just recently got my last recruiter so I decided it is time for me to join the discussion. I'm runnin the moro R build with black splash for sideboard perish.

I have tested 2 Solemn Simulacrum in the place of SDT and i have to say it seems pretty good so far. It allows me to keep a hand with 2x tomb/city with no mountains, it is useful as a blocker and of course, it beats too. Sure, SDT also allows 2x tomb hands, but when I have a mountain in hand I like to use it for 1st turn Figure/Grindstone or save mana for bolt/blast. SDT eats so much mana during the game that it's really, really irritating when I have to choose between, blast, bolt, figureboost or top - and it is the card I always side out between games.

Solemn:
+ card & mana advantage
+ blocks and beats
- 4 mana casting cost, which is really not THAT big of a deal with 4 tombs and 4 citys...

SDT:
+ card selection
- vs aggro SDT is almost always bad
- mana sink

Oh yes I almost forgot! Fetchlands + SDT is always a great way to manipulate draw, but I'm running 7 MD moon-effects so I rarely get the opportunity to shuffle (except early game). I rather just play out the moonlock ASAP.

I'm happy I've come to the point where I have 2 possible free slots for the deck. Usually it goes the other way.. where I have 65 cards and I have to choose what to cut - while every single cards seems mandatory.

Any thoughts?

sroncor1

10-21-2010, 12:02 AM

What is your current full list that you are running. I still feel you should have two koth in the deck. He is just that strong.

Mammutti

10-21-2010, 05:20 AM

Already have the koth. He is amazing.
Decklist atm looks like this:

6 Mountain
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Badlands
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained mire

4 Painter
4 Magus
4 Recruiter
3 Guide
3 Figure
2 Solemn
1 Jaya

6 Blast
4 Grindstone
4 Bolt
3 Blood Moon
2 Koth

SB:
3 Shattering Spree
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Perish
2 Blast
1 Vexing Shusher

I really don't like chromemoxes.

Hopo

10-21-2010, 07:22 AM

Shusher

I really don't like chromemoxes.

You should start liking them. First turn moon effects are just too strong, as are permanent mana sources when you're trying to race other combo decks with your own combo. Or even aggro. You should also play 4 SSG. Now you have replaced 5 free mana sources with two Solemn Simulacrums. Doesn't sound right.

sroncor1

10-21-2010, 11:29 AM

I have to agree with Hobo that first turn moon effects are really strong, but I can see a meta where they are not as strong. But you run seven so clearly you think they are good. Think of them like trinisphere the sooner the better. If you do decide to stay away from the moxen then def up the ssg count to 4.

My question is in what match ups is solemn strong? I can see him being good in a field of midrange but if that is the case I don't know if I would have the balls to play painter. Otherwise I like the list and I think there may be good reasons to increase the land count and dump moxen. You lose speed for consistency. Although I might be inclined to throw a wielder in if that was what my plan was.

Seth

alphastorm

10-23-2010, 10:25 AM

Everyone has always complained how expensive Imperial recruiter so why not just add in 4x Enlightend tutors? Anyone tried this yet? Here is my list.

[4x] Painter's Servant
[4x] Simian Spirit Guide
[4x] Blood Moon
[4x] Pyroblast
[4x] Red Elemental Blast
[4x] Grindstone
[4x] Chrome Mox
[3x] Jaya Ballard, Task Mage

[4x] Enlightened tutor
[3x] Swords to Plowshares

//Land
[4x] Plateau
[4x] Arid Mesa
[4x] Ancient Tomb
[4x] City of Traitors
[1x] Mountain
[1x] Plain

Enlgihtened tutors also help bring in a more diverse sideboard and can also search 2 turns earlier than Imperial recruiter. One of the problems I've encountered is knowing when to play blood moon. There is only 5 mana sources that can produce white after Blood moon is played.

sroncor1

10-24-2010, 09:38 AM

Well Enlightened Tutor could work, but that deck is a different beast with different gameplans. That and you lose the card advantage of the Recruiter. Worth checking out, but not the same thing and a simple substitution it is not.

i have been playing the Survival madness matchup alot recently and I do not think it is as bad as I initially thought. Since they function as a sort of combo deck, trinisphere remains strong even when dropped turn three. Using my stock list my sideboard strategy would be - 4 Magus, -2 blood moon, -1 Jaya, -1 Wildfire Emissary +4 Trinisphere, +4 perish. I would love to side in the extra blast effects but i can't come up with something to take out. Crypts seem fairly weak in the match up. BUt Trinisphere as been a complete house against them. I hope this helps a bit.

If I was going to play in an event now this would be my sideboard, maindeck has not changed:
4 trinisphere
4 Perish
2 Blast effects
1 Stingscourger
2 tormod's Crypt
2 Blood Moon

Seth

Solar Ice

10-24-2010, 02:08 PM

BUt Trinisphere as been a complete house against them.

Hi all. I've been a lurker for a couple of years and decided to join today. :smile:

Trinishpere is a house against quite a few decks. It's been stellar for me so far.So much so that I think it probably belongs in the maindeck. I'd probably take out the set REBs, (which are dead against anything non-blue without the Servan) and move them to the board, though it is a tough call. Thoughts?

sroncor1

10-25-2010, 09:01 AM

Blue is still the best color in the game and many decks play blue cards. The only time I don't want blast effects in my deck are against zoo as they have so much removal. I'm just not sure cutting situational counterspells and vindicates is the best. To be honest I would love to be running 7 if I could make room.

There are some matchups where Trinisphere. Merfolk goblins and mid range are all decks where it isn't amazing. And it does slow us down. I really think the best place for it is in the board but I could see a meta where they may be strong in the main. If you have lots of combo, survival madness, and zoo. Although without blast effects you are forced to mull to trinisphere and as a result you lose possible outs in the combo match up.

Seth

kusumoto

10-26-2010, 11:42 AM

I only want 3sphere against combo.

I don't like it when my figures, bolts, and grindstones cost three. It's only worth it against combo.

I think less than 4 Tormod's on the board is a bad idea with all the graveyard dependent strategies and emrakuls running about.

sroncor1

10-26-2010, 05:09 PM

There are other decks beside pure combo where trinisphere is strong. Survival madness is another one I think. Other than that I would hesitate to use it although it can work against zoo. But I think there are better cards against zoo, especially ones that don't have to come down first turn to be really effective.

Dark Zero

12-20-2010, 04:19 PM

*bumping this thread*

Not really...;D

Just want to let you know that I made 1st place at the legacy event at Hannover (31 participants) with this beast of deck.
MU's were:

2-1 Big Zoo
2-0 Tempo Bant
2-0 Ub Merfolk
2-0 Loam Rock
2-1 TES
I.D. Canadian

The list I played was the one from my last post here, but with a few changes in the SB. If somebody wants to know more about my Matches, please let me know.

The other reason for digging up this thread is the banning of SotF. How will this banning influence the meta and the position of our deck?
I'm pretty happy with the banning, as I see merfolk rising again, same goes for countertop. Some of the worse matchups vanished with survival.

sroncor1

12-20-2010, 07:33 PM

The banning may actually hurt the deck. I think zoo will come bact a little stronger which sucks. Otherwise not much else changes. I have only played in one event in the past two months, but I did manage to win it. During that event I beat two survival lists. It really wasn't that hard of a deck to beat once you knew how to attack it. Zoo is still a headache. I'll do some testing over the holidays and post an updated list. I do have some ideas for changing the board but right now 4 perish may be needed. That is what I am starting with

Mr.C

12-23-2010, 02:28 AM

Call me crazy, but I've been playing around with Glasses of Urza in the main. It gives me a lot of information so I don't waste combo pieces going into a wall of counters agains control, and helps me plan against aggro.

It's been pretty decent so far.

sroncor1

01-01-2011, 10:33 PM

I'll be playing this deck in an event this weekend. Ive only gotten to play it once in like the last three months due to being stationed in Hawaii, but I was able to win some underground seas with it there even amongst a field of survival. I think I'll be making a few changes, but I'll get a list posted soon. Along with possible board but to be honest the meta could be so varied.

Seth

Vesper Ghoul

01-02-2011, 11:38 PM

The day before Survival was banned I played my old Imperial list even with U/G Madness Survival built and I won with it the last Legacy Tournament at the same shop.

Round 1 Aluren

Game 1: I put down the combo early he scoops up with me only seeing Trop / Undergound Sea and a brainstorm
Game 2: (no board) I am on the aggro plan I finally realize I am playing against (non Imperial) Aluren he Lim Dul's Vaults at E.O.T. he was at 7 he went down to 4 I bolt him while still EOT leaving him at one with 3 lands and he shows me the fetch land as his fourth in the top five.

Round 2 Eva Green
Game 1: I am blown out with tons of removal and discard
Game 2: I side in Jitte and the 8th blast Aggro plan blasting for protection an equipt Scarecrow got there
Game 3: Early moon kept green from showing up to turn on his K Grips he scoops up once Jitte comes down.

Round 3 Goblins (mono red)
Game 1: Early combo with blast back up dodged the Gempalm bullet
Game 2: Lackey and Warren Instigator make things too tough too quick
Game 3: He wastes my tomb in response to the painter (I was tapped anyway) he gempalms to stop the block on his turn but not kill I draw the land and mill away

Round 4 Survival Elves (Emrakul)
Game 1: I am going aggro he combos off cast the big guy swings 2x and wins
Game 2: (board in Needle, Crypt, Faerie Macabre, and Jitte) I have the pieces early and an extra recruiter I recruit the Faerie Needle his Viridian Zealot / Mill he scoops up
Game 3: (board the same) early combo again I have multiple blasts and the Servant he thinks he has me killed with a Gorilla Shaman I counter it with a blast for the heck of it I mill him with out the crypt of Faerie he flips his deck over shows me Emrakul in his hand.

Round 5 New Horizons
I want to ID as I didn't think I would do well and I wanted to go home. My opponent agrees then realizes that I win either way and he has to win to top 4 for prizes.

I win the roll for the 1st time in the day
Game 1: 1st turn moon with blast back up the deck runs 1 forest all others non basic I beat for with my magus for the win
Game 2: (Faerie and crypt) he get a goyf and counters my magus but I have the blood moon in hand/ and crypt on the board from turn 1. I grab the faerie on the recruiter he didnt grab his forest I block his goyf with my 1/1 Crypt him toss the faerie magma jet it and on my turn I moon. Game over.

I slapped the board together it wasnt perfect but it was everything I needed when I needed it.

4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Figure of Destiny
4 Painter Servant

2 Lightning Bolt
3 Magma Jet
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyroblast

3 Blood Moon

4 Grindstone
3 Chrome Mox

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
11 Mountain

SB
2 Jitte
1 Jaya
3 Trinisiphere
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pyroblast
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Vashiano Heretic
1 Lightning Bolt

sroncor1

01-19-2011, 04:14 PM

Congrats on the finish. It's nice to see the deck can still perform even when not much has changed within the past year or so. I figured we all three of us that read this thread are required to discus Phyrexian Revoker. My gut tells me it can be a strong one of in the deck as I always wanted Imperial Recruiter to be able to get more answers. That being said I have never had many problems with vial decks and I really don't think we should be searching him out against combo. Any thoughts. And sorry if there are typos, I'm post call on my iPhone.

Seth

Old Dan O

01-20-2011, 06:36 PM

Hello Everyone,

I am new to the forums but have been reading for a few monthes now..... I just got back into Magic and liked the looks of this deck.

I am planning on playing in a local tournament this weekend probably 30-40 players and was wondering if I could get some sound words of advice.

I have both the (SCG 1st place list "urw" & sroncor1 list in his primer "mono Red with 'b" splash for the sideboard) sleeved up.

I am having a difficult time deciding which list to play.

I expect to see quite a bit of Zoo, Merfolk, Counter Top, EVA and TES at this tournament.

Can anyone give me some insight on which direction to go.... and some sideboard help.......

Thanks in Advance
Dan O

sroncor1

01-21-2011, 11:07 AM

@ Old Dan- I'm partial to my list but the other deck you mentioned is all a solid deck, just a totally different beast. The maindeck from my primer hasn't changed much. Basically I have played around with the 60th card a bit. Sometimes I have added the 4th SSG and other times it has been the wildfire emissary. I have liked both options. Looking at your meta I would use Viashino Heretic. He really is strong handling all the artifacts you are bound to see. Now if New Horizon type tempo starts to get big the the Wildfire Emissary becomes stronger. My list has solid matchups with counterbalance and Eva. It destroys most Merfolk lists. I haven't really had many problems with goblins in the past but the game plan is very build dependent. I have found the monored and green splash lists actually easier to beat although I would have no idea which versions of goblins is actually the best. Your combo match up isn't bad and I would say it is better Han 50/50. Again you have to be aggressive with mulligans. Also my list should have no problems with dredge if that is played in your area. The black splash for Perish helps a lot in the zoo match up but it is still rough. Don't be afraid to blow a Perish on two creatures bc that is still acceptable. Assuming my playlist this is my recommended board.

2 blood moon
4 trinisphere
2 blast effects
4 perish
3 engineered explosives.

Screw graveyard hate. You don't need it. Maybe a fairie in there but nothing else. I can give more advice if you let me know the exact deck and sideboard. Most of what I wrote in the primer for boarding still holds. EE is just so strong right now.

Seth

thorin_the_king

01-21-2011, 12:12 PM

hi there again, i've been out a little due to my final project of studies, but here again. I sitll have my old imperial painter list sleeved, and i wanted just to toss a few ideas here if they can help improving this deck.

@Phyrexian revoker: i think this should be maindecked for sure, but as 4-of. it gets pressure on like magus does, and alongside with it it can shut a lot of decks. plus it's recruitable. i totally love it. one can shut the manabase, the other vials, hierarchs, moxes, birds, jittes...i can't think about a deck in wich this creature would not be useful G1. maybe im a bit hyped about him :)

@the deck. what do you think about adding mox opals instead of SSG and chrome mox? tossing a few welders, LEDs and great furnace instead of some mountains might help get the deck more explosive than before.

just brainstorming here, if anyone want to test something with this ideas, please let me know. good luck to every Imperial Players!

Thorin

Dark Zero

01-21-2011, 02:46 PM

one can shut the manabase, the other vials, hierarchs, moxes, birds, jittes...i can't think about a deck in wich this creature would not be useful G1. maybe im a bit hyped about him :)

The revoker can't shut down the manabase because it reads non-land card. But I agree, it is a very solid card with plenty of targets and it deserves some testing. But I don't think it has to be a 4-of because it disrupts not as much as magus does and is more like an answer to problem cards (vial, jitte) and not proactive.

I thought about some build with welder, led, furnaces, gamble and mox opal too. But I didn't find the time to work it out, although it promises interesting tricks.

By now, I just got the cards for the black splash and will test in on my next local event. The last event I had to play with my mono r list and finished pretty solid 9th place (4-2-0). Have to admit that my matchups were kind of terrible, 3 times zoo. <_<

Big Zoo - Win 2:1
Zoo - Loss 0:2
Dreadstill - Win 2:1
Zoo - Win 2:0
Goblins - Loss 1:2
Ugb TempoTresh - Win 2:0

I feel the matchup against zoo is hard, but doable postboard. Hope it will change more in my favour with the perish.

sroncor1

01-21-2011, 03:15 PM

Tough luck with the three zoo decks. The last big event I played in I faced the only two zoo decks out of 35 people and then burn. Managed to beat one zoo deck, but bad draws doomed me against burn, which can be a terrible match up.

The main problem with Mox Opal is taht it does not lead to first turn Moon effects which is still the strongest thing you can do. I think the welder deck you are trying to build would play out a lot differently because you would lose the Moon effect shitty creature beatdown plan. I actually don't know which is better, but I do think it is different. If I was going that route I would try to add FOW, Intuition, Brainstorm and Trinket Mage. You may need another blue card to support FOW but it can combo someone out and do cool things with Goblin Tinker like cheat huge monsters into play. Not a bad idea, and as I typr this I would want another counterspell, but it would be interesting.

I think the Revoker could function as a one of. I'm not sure he is better than Pithing Needle and I actually see no need to run that card as you would not have room in the board. However since he is tutorable, and hits LED I think a one of def deserves testing and I actually already ordered four from Starcitygames as I can easily see him being a ten dollar card. A maindeck answer to Planeswalkers and the like is nice although I don't know how I would fit him in the deck. I still like to blow up the vial with the Heretic, but it would be nice to stop it without worring about summoning sickness. But I think as far as dead cards go the Heretic is a little better if for only the fact that you can imprint it. I think what we really need to do is come up with times and situations the Revoker would be best, that is usually what I do with new cards. I'll try and come up with some situations for comparison.

Seth

thorin_the_king

01-21-2011, 05:13 PM

The revoker can't shut down the manabase because it reads non-land card.

sorry about that, my english is very poor. i was trying to say that one (the magus) can shut their lands, while revoker take care of the other mana resources or outs like aether vial :)

Old Dan O

01-21-2011, 08:45 PM

Seth,

I will take your exact list and the sideboard you recommended, I will let you know how I do..... thank you for all your help

Dan O

sroncor1

01-22-2011, 07:36 AM

Good luck! I suggest the EE now bc vial decks are piping up more and more. They really aren't needed in the Merrill match up. In that one just board out the Blood Moon and bring in blasts if it is monocolored. If they splash white your best bet is to side out Koth and bring in blast effects. For zoo just board out the blast effects and bring in the Perish and Moon effects. EE is also good here if they are running builds with grim lavamancer. To get them in I would move out a Jaya, and the moths in that situation bc he will just take too much of a beating. But Koth can be really strong against zoo. It's more of depending on the build you are better getting a few 2 for 1s. With this strategy you are just buying time to combo are really slow roll the beat down with shitty dorks. I hope this helps.

With regards to going against combo board out figure, koth, jaya and bring in the blast and trinisphere. You just have to be aggressive with he mulligan. EE can also be brought in for lightning bolt against belcher. In your opening hand you need to have like a second turn kill or a lock price to drop or painter with mana open to blast a tutor. If you do that you should be ok. I k ow this is easier said than down but I have found that it is better to go down to 5 cards if your hands can't do these things. Good luck.

Seth

Vesper Ghoul

01-23-2011, 10:16 PM

I like the revoker in the board personally. I also still feel Faerie Macbre is needed in the board for the Emrakul match ups. Toyed with an Aether Vial , gamble, and Furnace build but it was too far "out there" vialing in a painter is cool in response to their removal and gamble can be the nut good. It would take a bit to change my mind right now that the original list is better positioned now then it was a year ago. The amount of decks that are relying on Jace to win is crazy and that basically an auto win.

The Big Ragu

01-23-2011, 10:25 PM

Never mind.

sroncor1

01-24-2011, 06:26 PM

I don't get the nevermind, but I do love trolling.

To answer the question of graveyard hate I have found Fairie Macabre to be less than amazing. I may have a funny meta but when I go against Eldrazi decks they have 3 copies of the monster. That was why I ran crypt for awhile. What are others thoughts on this. I really don't know myself but it is a different situation than Natural Order decks.

You are right about the Jace matchup. As a win condition it sucks against us. But you should be winning that matchup anyway. Blue based control decks are a great reason to play this deck. I actually think the meta is very favorable right now. My only question is when will zoo come back? Does it crush these vial decks?

Seth

jrw1985

01-24-2011, 07:32 PM

My only question is when will zoo come back? Does it crush these vial decks?

Seth

Yeah, where the hell did Zoo go? It was gone from this months' SCG 5Ks. What happened to it?

sroncor1

01-24-2011, 08:22 PM

I can see zoo doing well in the current meta, but right now it really isn't that popular. I still think the black splash is strong. If your meta has shifted to bant and new horizon decks then you might want to consider Wildfire Emissary. He really is strong in those metas. You could also just add another Koth. He is also very strong in metas where your Moon effects are strong. If you have a lot of Rock style decks Koth becomes even more important. If I can this weekend I'll post an updated list of cards I keep sleeved up and with me when I go to an event so that I can slightly modify the deck on the fly. I'll even try to show some situations when the changes may be warranted.

Seth

Dark Zero

01-25-2011, 09:11 AM

Yeah, the current meta is definately favourable right now and here in germany zoo isn't that popular, too. The dtb over here are merfolk, goblins and TES as well countertop (mostly the supreme u variants) will be. Tempotresh, NH and non-LED dredge have their places too (as I think about it, especially the number of dredge players increases rapidly these days).

I can see zoo doing pretty well and due to that fact I will stick to the black splash. I don't see Faerie Macabre in my sideboard the next event because relevant 'eldrazi-matchups' play at least four emrakul. This SA/Show and Tell deck is the newcomer over here. As our last event was full of dredge decks (5 out of 31) too, I thought about adding Leyline of the Void to the SB. This basically turns the dredge matchup even more in your favour and gives you an out against those shitty eldrazis. But I don't know if crypt fits just not better here.

As for the Wildfire Emissary I've to say it is a nice choice againt rock and zoo decks, holding back a KotR or a Loam Lion while being resistent to PtE/StoP is pretty good and gets even better because the traditional zoo list are suppressed because big zoo is more popular over here and this deck plays more white removal than bolts etc.

sroncor1

01-26-2011, 06:25 PM

The show and tell decks are def a tough deck to fight. I think the main problem is the variety of them. I have beaten the Aeon bridge version each time I have played against it. But in those match ups I kept tutoring for Moon effects. However it is important to note that while my combo couldn't win, it could hold him from combing me. Other builds the mon effect isn't as strong. Stingscorger can work well in these situations. Also if show and tell decks are huge in your area run diabolical edict. Fucks up their day and you can continue to beat with your shitty dorks.

Depending on how the meta shifts I have been playing around with white splash again to include Stone Forge Mystic. She would take the place of the Figures as equipment turns every creature into a threat which is one of the reasons to run Figure. I can elaborate later but I have liked it in testing in certain matchups.

Seth

sroncor1

01-29-2011, 09:24 PM

I have found that the crypt is better against Eldrazi but the Fairie is better against dredge. I guess if dredge is huge in your area some sideboard spaces are justified. I might be convinced to run two Fairie and 3 EE. That gives you a few lanes of attack. Personally I love playing dredge and would not play any dedicated hate to it and just let a little splash damage carry you.

Depending how the meta adjusts, and it should because zoo really is a strong deck now, I think the deck may have to change again. Perish is really strong right now but I can see affinity also stepping up. There is little we can do to adjust for combo except go back to white and allow for the fastest most consistent combo. If combo and affinity raise then the white splash seems stronger. As a result goblins should also start to decline as it is a dog to zoo. In that situation I have really liked my testing with Stone Forge Mystic. As mentioned earlier it fills a similar roll as Figure except in a different way. And we haven't even seen the red white sword yet. That could really change the zoo match up allowing us to easily protect our painter. And jitte is very strong against both zoo and affinity. I'm not saying a switch needs to happen but I could see the meta moving in a direction where this deck that I've mentioned may actually be stronger. I have a little more testing to do on the final cards and I will post a list of what this new version of painter could be. As I said before it really depends on where go Linz moves as stopping lackey is so important to making that match up easier for us.

Seth

Fatal

02-04-2011, 04:19 PM

Hey guys i was playing Imperial Painter in many ways mono R, UR, URw, Painter/Bombermann and so on.

Worst MU was always:
-Zoo (just to many removal)
-Burn/Boros Sligh (look above)
-Show and Tell decks (mostly only G1 after side there is no problem)

All issues was how to deal with fast clock deck with tons of removal (Bolts/Path's and so on).
Since last good version was B splashed for Perish i looked closer what can this color offer.
I write down what I found:
-Beseech the Queen (some role as Recruiter nothing else just Demonic tutor in this deck.
-LED/Infernal Tutor (all known interaction with mana boost)
-Disrupt (Duress/Thoughseize normal)

And goodies for your issue - IGG Loop. 2 Cards with Tutor package (can be used to plan A as Imperial Recruiter searching also Grindstone so universal tutor very useful alfer board, so have to consider it when building SB). With 4 LED's and 4 Dark Rituals we have boost speed to race any aggro/with mana/hand disrupt.

Loops can be done similar as in ANT/TES u just need 2 mana boost/darks/LEDs + Infernal.

As aditional Search Engine i used Sensei's, good with fetches/tutors (sometime just shuffle engine additional to finds missing part of combo) and good with LED's to speed up.

//Combo:
4 Grindstone
4 Painter's Servant
//Support:
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
//Search engine:
3 Infernal Tutor
3 Beseech the Queen
3 Imperial Recruiter
3 Sensei's Divining Top
//Speed Up:
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
//Tech vs Zoo/Burn/Rock and other non-blue based:
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
//Disrupt
4 Duress
4 Pyroblast
//Mana base:
4 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Swamp
4 Badlands
2 Ancient Tomb

//SB: not optimal depends on meta
2 Perish
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Shattering Spree
3 Tormod's Crypt

Good luck with testing. I played vs:
- Merfolks 6:0 and 15-1 after board (some random bad hand),
- Bant Aggro 4-1 and 10-3 after board
- Spiral combo 1-3 and 9-4 after board
- Zoo 4-0 and 14-1 after board - Mindbreak Trap is blue.. :]

JCLe

02-05-2011, 08:41 PM

stuff

This list looks pretty fine, I'll definitely try this out and have some input for it soon. The thing that bothers me most about the list is the beseech's but I guess they are worth a try.

thanks!

sroncor1

02-06-2011, 08:31 AM

@Fatal- Congrats with the list. It def looks interesting, but it clearly is a different beast. Have you tried Grim Tutor in place of Beseech. Life loss is rough but it should be slightly easier to cast with no restrictions on what you can grab. As an aside I assume you could get a 100 dollar tutor as you have Recruiters and the like. My only question is how are you to counterbalance. My guess is that you would be a dog to it, but like I said I have no experience with the deck. I might suggest Thoughsieze to duress if only so that you can hit the numerous hate bears that pop up along with essentially buying you numerous turns against tempo decks. Overall good work and i like the ingenuity, although I cant really offer any more than I have already as your deck is clearly different that the Imperial Painter list that I have been working on. I would love updates though as it is really interesting.

In other news I have abandoned testing the white splash in favor of something better. As Fatal mentioned earlier our worst match ups are Zoo and Burn, with the occasional rock style decks, although they are more draw dependent than anything. I also noticed that against countertop, goblins, merfolk, tempo decks, lands, Enchantress, and even Dredge I rarely use my board. The board is basically structured with the additional 2 Moon effects and then cards to fit Combo and Zoo. So far I have liked what Trinisphere has done for the combo match up really helping Belcher and sort of being a non issue against a good Ad Naus player. But I do feel as if it has helped those match ups. The Black splash has helped the zoo match up, but it is still tougher than it should be as we are a combo deck and we should be beating it. Not to mention I lost to a shitty burn deck due to bad draws at my last event i decided to address the fundamental weakness in those matchups.

I have been testing a transformational sideboard for nearly a week now. I have played over 100 games with it and I really do love what it does for the deck. I will say this that your first couple games with it you will make all sorts of mistakes. i have always felt this was a very difficult deck to pilot well because we do not run cantrips and it has multiple lines of attack and the opening draw is so sensitive. The transformational sideboard basically turns us into a much faster and more consistent combo deck that still can lay down moon effects. It has really changed the dynamic of the deck in these matchups. I know its early but I have been going 60/40 in my favor vs zoo since the change over. Without further delay:

4 Intuition
4 Show and Tell
4 Emrakul
2 Blood Moon
1 Island

A few things of note. Yes the Island sucks but it is necessary. It is in the board b/c it makes Koth and Figure worse. But the games where you want it are the same games you will be siding those cards out. I do miss the extra blast effects and that does weaken us against blue based decks, but remeber you are already positive against them. Not to mention you could bring in the board vs Counterbalance and Merfolk and laugh if you wanted. I basically don't give a fuck about dredge as you should be able to beat it and this just makes the combo that much more consistent. The deck is not going blue so FoW has no place in it, don't worry I tried and you can't do it. Goblin Welder is still not strong enough to use big artifacts. I tried it and it seemed so cool to be able to weld a monster in after intuition. But zoo plays path and swords, not to mention burn to destroy the little welder. A resolved emrakul should spell game over for them. If it doesnt then you should have intuitioned for the grindstone combo as you where too far behind. That is why this seems so great to me. We now have two combos. This doesn't really answer the show and tell decks and that match up needs work. I also had to slightly rework the mana base of my core list as 4 SSG seam necessary now. The only card I have not been able to fit is Viashino Heretic. I'll have a larger post after this friday as i will be playing this for the first time. I hope you guys give it a try.

Seth

Fatal

02-06-2011, 02:03 PM

thanks for feedback, Queen is poorer than Grim Tutor due to cost BBB instead 1BB, your right but its still quite nice (I don't have 4th Grims so probably work with them online to test them).

I would be carefuly with S&T / Emarkul Side specially when your infected with D&T / Karakas MU.

sroncor1

02-06-2011, 07:32 PM

@fatal- That is why it is in the board. So far I have loved it against Zoo and Burn and felt it was sort of a push against Merfolk and Goblins. Our Ad Naus match up is roughly the same as if nothing else Intution is better than some of our dead cards. I Would not recommend the sideboard plan against D and T and i am currently testing it against tempo deck list. I haven't loved it there but I need to work on how I approach the match up. I am basically running a stock swap in now for my early testing to just get a fee lfor the deck. Jace makes it a little worse but overall the results are positive. And don't forget my stock list beats on tempo and counterbalance lists pretty hard.

I will add this though, I have had to switch out lightning Bolt for Fire/Ice. Mainly for imprinting purpose, but its cantrip value is ok. Sometimes you miss the lightning bolt, but against big monsters it is actually a little stronger essentially giving you a time walk.

seth

Vesper Ghoul

02-07-2011, 11:30 PM

Hey guys I took my list to SCG Indy this weekend slightly tweeked thanks to besieged. I finished 37th losing to Caleb Durward's Painter in the last round. My breakers were better going in to the match but he combo'ed quickly and I didn't have a Grindstone. Second game I put down the stone hoping to stall (possible mistake) with recruiter in hand. I know he sides to Show and Tell Emrakul as I watched him sideboard. I didn't have the crypt in my opening 7 or draw it in time. And the rest is history he was 17th we could have both drawn to top 32 spots. :(

Side note: Caleb is a really nice guy and is looking at the deck list and possibly tweaking it.

4x Imperial Recruiter
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Magus of the Moon
3x Figure of Destiny
4x Red Elemental Blast
3x Pyroblast
3x Magma Jet
2x Lightning Bolt
3x Blood Moon
4x Grind stone
3x Chrome Mox

4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
11x Mountain

Current Sideboard
3x Trinisphere
3x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Tormod's Crypt
1x Faerie Macabre
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Vexing Shusher
1x Jaya Ballard Task Mage
1x Viashino Heretic
1x Goblin Welder

Vesper Ghoul

02-18-2011, 06:35 AM

This is Article has the list that Caleb likes for Imperial Painter if anyone is interested.

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-new-toys/

sroncor1

02-18-2011, 08:19 PM

I dont love his list. I think it is lacking the vital removal in Lightning Bolt and more Figures. I really think goblins would be tough. And I have hardly ever had trouble with mana artifacts. I also think a splash is really important these days.

Islands to go 4 -1 playing the blue splash and I hope to get a mini report up soon with some thoughts on the deck.

Seth

Vesper Ghoul

02-20-2011, 10:16 PM

4-1 today at Portal in Bethlehem, Pa

If any is interested LMK I can run it down.
Beat
B/R Goblins, Zoo, Folk, and Dreamhalls
Lost to
Aggro Loam

Main Board Changes (from my last deck list post)
-2 Lightning Bolt
-1 Magma Jet
-1 Figure
-2 Chrome Mox
-4 Mountain
+2 Crystal Ball
+2 Jitte
+2 Mox Opal
+4 Great Furnace

SB
3x Trinisphere
1x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Tormod's Crypt
1x Faerie Macabre
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Vexing Shusher
1x Jaya Ballard Task Mage
1x Viashino Heretic
3x Goblin Welder

I still believe the splash is not needed which is funny because I advocated for it previously. I never missed the lightning bolts I however am not 100% sold on the Crystal Ball or Opals though. Each was valuable but Figure 8/8 still won a game for me and so did main deck jitte.

The Big Ragu

02-20-2011, 11:40 PM

I've never considered running Crystal Ball. Maybe I should.

Vesper Ghoul

02-21-2011, 08:27 AM

For me I cast Magma Jet often just for the scry the ball seemed like it was worth a giving a shot. I am running Painter @ SCG DC this weekend with at least a single Crystal Ball in it.

sroncor1

02-21-2011, 09:21 AM

@ Vesper Ghoul-I'll also be at SCg Dc this weekend with painter. I most likely will be running a blue splash as i have had great results against zoo and the like with the blue sideboard that I mentioned earlier. I'll look for you at the event. Maybe we will even end up playing next to each other like at Philly.

Seth

Dark Zero

02-22-2011, 07:25 AM

Just want you to know that I went 4-1-1 at last Legacy in Hannover, GER (49 participants). Finished 8th due to horrible oppscore.

Thopter 2:1 Win (would've been 2:0, but the judge misjudged a situation)
Aggro Loam 2:1 Win
Dredge 2:1 Win
Mono R Sneak Attack 1:2 Loss
Merfolk 2:0 Win
Enchantress ID for Top 8

My Deck was the following:

5 Mountain
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Badlands
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Painter's Servant
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Imperial Recruiter
3 Figure of Destiny
3 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Grindstone
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Pyroblast
3 Chrome Mox
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Blood Moon
1 Koth of the Hammer
1 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard
4 Trinisphere
3 Perish
2 Blood Moon
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Stingscourger

In the last events I had to face Zoo at least one time and so I decided to run the splash. Didn't work out this time, but Perish was fine against Aggro Loam too.

The loss was a hard one cause he didn't care for my moons. I was able to steal the first game on the back of Revoker, which did great all day long in naming Sneak Attack, Vial and Mox Diamond. Second game I lost to 2x Wurmcoil Engine and a Rorix Bladewing and in the third I had mull down to 5 and he had SA first turn with Ulamog and second turn Emrakul.

The Revoker definately deserves a slot, at least in SB. Don't know if he should be maindecked instead of the Wildfire Emissary, but as I will cut Faerie Macabre he's in the SB for sure. Tutoring for a Faerie could be sweet sometimes, but in most cases another toolbox target is strictly better. Against SA decks, Macabre has zero impact cause they pack at least 4 Emrakul (and 2 Progenitus most of time, which makes the combo worse). Eventually I will up the count of Crypts to three, but I'm not sure for now.

I will play this deck in 2 week at the Wintermercadiade, Hamburg, Germany (~150 players). As far as I know, my teammates own the stuff that is needed for the transformer SB. I'm looking forward to test it.

Vesper Ghoul

02-22-2011, 03:56 PM

I'll look for you at the event. Maybe we will even end up playing next to each other like at Philly.

Upper tables this time, okay?

boneclub24

02-22-2011, 06:44 PM

A friend of mine ran into some money, and is looking at this archetype. The main concern he has is ruining his Recruiters by playing them. I'm curious as to how judges look at proxy-ing for such high-end cards, as long has you have the real thing?

Vesper Ghoul

02-22-2011, 10:51 PM

Only head judges at events can issue proxies to use in a sanctioned tournament when cards become damaged.

I worried about the same thing when I bought my Recruiters at less than half of what they are now. Sadly I have also come to realize people shuffle up power all the time so it could be worse. Tell him to double sleeve his deck which reduces the risk of bad things happening.

sauce

02-22-2011, 11:05 PM

worrying about recruiters is silly, i play with beta duals... just double sleeve, you'll be fine.

sroncor1

02-23-2011, 01:11 AM

Yeah your friend should be fine. I use kmc perfect fits to double sleeve band unlike condoms double alerting cards really works! Even when I play vintage I don't mind speeding up the alpha power I have. I have been playing with my recruiters for over two years and they are still in great shape. A playmat is a must though. To play this deck unfortunately you just have to acknowledge you are placeing 1200 bucks on the table.

@vesper ghoul- top tables would be better but I ran a train over people on the back tables after losing rounds two and three to belcher and zoo. Do you guys from Bethlehem have a place to crash in dc. I will be working at the hospital on Friday night but I will be post call sat afternoon and you guys are welcome to crash at my house in dc if it makes it better for you guys. In response to crystal ball, I haven't tested the card at all. I like where your head is at with it but I really think top is better. If you ran fetches and recruiters you have enough shuffle effects to reply make it work. And the top will affect the board state the turn you cast it. Crystal ball makes you wait a turn and as a top deck that just blows. In response to the splash I reLly don't know what is the right call. Within the last year I have played mono red and three different splashes and at each time I thought it was the right call. Right now I'm really liking the blue splash but I can see arguments for mono red or black splash.

If anyone is thinking about starting to play the deck I really recommend learning on the mono red build. It is by far the easiest version to play as it takes when and what to fetch out of the equation. I still believe this deck is one of the hardest to play. So practice the shit out of playing the deck. I have been playing a version of the deck for two years almost exclusively and I have won a couple mods and many dual lands with the deck and I still make many mistakes with it. That's my two sense.

Vesper Goul-if you guys need anything pm me and I'll give you my cell.

Seth

boneclub24

02-23-2011, 01:11 AM

worrying about recruiters is silly, i play with beta duals... just double sleeve, you'll be fine.

Alright, thanks for the pointers! He'll appreciate this I'm sure.

Vesper Ghoul

02-27-2011, 01:01 AM

Vesper Goul-if you guys need anything pm me and I'll give you my cell.

Seth

Epic Fail Could have used some info but I hadn't checked the thread till tonight. :/ Oh well thanks Seth, catch yah in a few hours.

sroncor1

02-27-2011, 08:19 PM

SO I managed to go 5-3 at the Starcitygames open today. I punted my last game in the last round against goblins. I would love to say the kid outplayed me, but I kept a semi weak hand and missed a trigger as I was just too tired. He did draw the nuts and the games I lost saw my opponent hit three Gempalm incinerates against me. Otherwise the Weirding would not have been able to get me. I dropped a tough round against Junk, and was just outclassed. my other lose was against the big mana artifact decks. i had to mull to 5 and 6 and really was never in those games. Maybe I should not have kept the hands but it was the first time I played the match up. Overall I beat goblins twice, death and taxes, merfolk and counterbalance. I loved the blue splash and I really think it takes the deck to the next level. i didn't play zoo, but i def. don't fear it anymore. I'll get a full write up in the next couple days along with some sideboarding plans and future thoughts on the deck. I basically beat myself today, but that will happen when you are post 48 hours of call at the hospital. The deck deserved better than me today.

Seth

Shinwei

02-28-2011, 05:06 PM

Hey Seth. Thanks for teaching me that Emrakul has the ability to block in DC yesterday. I will never forget that lesson!

EddieO

02-28-2011, 06:39 PM

I played this list this weekend in our local Mirkwood Cup with 82 entries. I placed 3rd/4th....

Creatures
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Figure of Destiny
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Goblin Welder
1 Phyrexian Revoker

Planeswalkers
1 Koth of the Hammer

Enchantments
2 Blood Moon
Spells
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
4 Lightning Bolt

Artifacts
4 Grindstone
2 Chrome Mox

Lands
5 Mountain
2 Badlands
1 Swamp
4 Bloodstained mire
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
Sideboard
3 Engineered Plague
4 Trinisphere
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Perish
1 Viashino Heretic
3 Diabolic Edict

Round 1 - Playing Pro Tour player Matt Hague......he wins the roll and elects go first, plays and underground sea and ponders......passes. I think he is playing storm, so I go Ancient Tomb and SSG for magus of the moon.......he does nothing to but lay lands as I beat him down. I never play the combo as there is no need. I have no idea what he is playing, but I think he thinks I am playing dragon stompy....I SB nothing. Game 2 features a turn 2 blitterblossom, some counters.....he meets my blast, I assemble combo and mill the library. He shakes head in frustration like he should of won......failing to realize that its a terrible match up for him and obiviously legacy is not his thing.

Round 2 - Playing some extremely nice but drunk guy playing Threshold, who some how managed to win round 1......he takes a while the shuffle, counts his SB 4 times.....we play a few turns, he is going to die anyways as I have turn 3 combo with double blast back up......but on his third turn he drops his hand on the table after drawing his card and says he scoops cause he didn't desideboard.....heh, checked it four times but never actually LOOKED. Game 2 features us trading some damage, but me comboing off for the win....

Round 3 Chris Hauge....a local, nice guy....hate losing to him, as he doesn't own any cards just always borrows decks. I seem to always get matched up against him in tournaments like these and I always seem to lose games I should win....game 1, stuff all going my way, suddenly lots of goblins and I am dead. Game 2, SB in Plagues.....Play land and pass.....he plays lackey, turn 2 I play Tomb and a plague......I then proceed to drawn nothing but lands while he gets double warchief with a piledriver.....I die. Unreal....

Round 4 - Matched up versus goblins again. I think this guy was from Canada. Super nice. I was sitting by him in round 2, so I know he has a white splash in the deck....Game 1, he murders me....I am thinking tourney over for me, but he then asks around if Grindstone Targets a player, I tell him yes it does. I can already tell Leyline is coming in....I laugh at stuff like Leyline and Null Rod....I just blast them folks. Low and Behold he drops two at the start of the game.....little does he know I have one blast already, steady mana and the combo in hand. At the end of his 4th turn I blast both of them and combo off.....Game 3, no leyline but he also tried to get tricky with his own blasts.....he fails to realize, they are blue too....so my two are better than his 1. I combo off for the win.

Round 5 Kinda a weird very quiet dude, but he was nice. I dunno how well he knows the rules on certain cards though......Game 1 I get a blood moon out early, so I just start beating down, I then assemble combo, but when I combo I see Emrakul...crap. So I use the mill effect to shuffle his stuff, constantly screwing up his brainstorms, LDV and Top....I have double painter on the table and 3 blasts in hand....I draw a Recruiter, so I go get Jaya thinking I will start blowing up all his land....I then realize, go ahead and show and tell! He does, I play jaya....he plays the big bitch.....I untap and destroy her with a City of Traitors. Game 3 I SB In my Macbre and Crypt. I go in beat down mode again, but I assemble the combo.....I have to blast a two show and tells, but then I draw Jaya with an active Welder in play and two grindstones.....so I fear show and tell no more. I draw my crypt, play it....he shrugs and says ok...so his next turn, I activate grindstone, weld painter into play....he starts milling till he hits an emrakul and goes to shuffle. I explain to him, Grindstone finishes, Emrakul triggers go on the stack....but I will crypt him in response....game over. He doesn't believe me, I say call a judge....he shrugs his shoulders and says he misplayed both games and should of won....

Round 6 Not sure what this guy was really playing, was some form of CB I think....Game 1 blood moon rocks the world....I have no idea what he is playing, but again I beat down so he has no idea about the combo. Game 2 was a bit more of challenge as he wisely gets basics.....but combo backed up by blasts paves the way.

Round 7 Intentional Draw....5-1-1

Quarter Final - Playing Shawn Yu with Zoo.....ugh...Game 1, I get out a quick Magus, but its not enough to slow down the assault before I can combo off. Game 2 features an actual blood moon.....which has has no answer for without a forest....Koth hits the table and quickly finishes the deal. Game 3 is where it gets strange.....I am basically holding on for dear life. I finally get the combo....but I mistap my mana, using my badlands and swamp insteal of city to cast painter....DUMB. Leaves me a Mountain, City and Tomb to mill him, but with only one mountain I can only blast once, though I had two in my hand....I am at 7, so tomb is gonna put me in burn range....this is where it gets weird.....I declare the end of my turn. He then proceeds to cast Swords to Plowshare on painter, I blast it....he then casts another, CRAP! Well, I activate Grindstone in response. He then taps three mana and says "Krosan Grip targeting grindstone"....he even puts the grip on the grindstone. I am like, ok.....mill your library. He sinks in his chair, realizing his error. On a normal monday tourney I let him take this back all day, but this is for a black lotus....so I stuck to my guns. I place grindstone in the graveyard and painter in exile, gaining a life to put me back at 6....he doesn't have any burn in hand....I did feel bad, but that's part of the game....

Semi-Final Against Corbett playing Zoo.....god hates me. It was not any better though, as the other two Finalist were Show and Tell (rocking Progentitus and Emrakul) and BGW Junk.....both bad matchups for me too. We all agreed to split the prizes, but rules require we play for a winner so we left the box and sinkholes to the winner with each of us taking $250 cash......Corbett gets an early pridemage that I never kill.....I assemble combo but am one mana short to activate, but I fail to see it would not of mattered as corbett could of used his knight to get a untapped land to use pridemage to kill my painter. Game 2 I kill him turn 2.....WEE! Game 3.....this is back and forth beatdown. I get out a Koth, but don't draw a blocker....he attacks and bolts it.....we then trade back and forth. I have grindstones out, but I know he is rocking removal....I just keep drawing lands. My last draw....land....so I grindstone him twice taking 4 damage to go out in style....first one I whiff....land and burn....other grindstone hits burn and lavamancer, then knight and pridemage....but then land and burn...My next card, Perish....which might of been nice a few turns back, as I had him at 7 and it would of forced him to kill my creatures, and I would not of chumped with them.....

In the end, I was happy with how the deck performed. I didn't get a chance to really spend time on it like I wanted, as I had been sick all week.....and had to take my son to hockey that morning so my SB and last minute changes were done in about 10 minutes.....The welder was underwhelming ALL day. I think I ever used it once....beyond it just getting killed, I don't really have enough artifacts in the deck to make it work. The edicts were not bad....they actually worked against more decks than I thought.....though I think I would like the 3rd perish. Plague, I just dunno on this. I've lost multiple times with it out.....I don't even side it in against Merfolk...at this point I almost wondering if the black splash is worth it......

Later EddieO

Yui

03-13-2011, 03:14 AM

Hiya,

i have been playing this for a while now and i love it, the only problem i have with it that i lose to my self.
Bad Draws can't seem to find my grindstone etc.
Is the problem me bad mull decisions, karma or i just don't get the deck?

I noticed that most of the decks went to splashing black is that the way to go atm?
The current build i have is mono R;

3x Top
3x Mox
4x Grindstone
4x Painter

4x SSG
4X Recruiter
3x Magus
2x Figure of destny
1x Jaya

2x Moon

3x Pyroblast
3x ReB
3x Bolt
2x Koth

4x City
4x Tomb
8x Mountain
3x Fetch

I need to get a revoker main but i have no idea what to cut. Also noticed that most of hte decks posted play only 1 koth did i miss something?
6 moon effects of 5?
I hope some of you can help me?

grt,
Yui

Grymer

03-13-2011, 04:11 AM

Nice to see one there is playing more then 1 top and 1 koth.. :D (not all that randomness like most of the lists in here) :S

I doesnt realy like figure of destny.. I think its bad becus if you doesnt have a blood moon effect on the battlefield its just hard times to get it "lvled"

So if i was you i would do this:

-2 figure of destny
+1 revoker
+1 Magus

-Grymer :)

sroncor1

03-13-2011, 08:52 AM

I'm on the fence about the Revoker. Will the idea of a tutorable needle is great, it just doesn't do what you want in testing. I would never cut figures for it. The figure is really important right now with the rise of goblins. In the last two events I played in I saw 6 goblin decks. I lost once and that kid would top 16 at the starcitygames open. Actually all three of my loses were to people who top 16 at the event. I will no longer be running the Revoker in my builds. I def recommend six main deck blast effects.

I'm still working on the blue splash and transformational sideboard. I'm trying to determine if I want Eldrazi vs a big hydra right now. Other than that two koth should be in the deck. The black splash is still strong but I have found the blue splash to bestronger against zoo and show and tell/NO decks. Sometime when I'm not getting destroyed at the hospital I want to get an updated list up with a detailed sideboard plan.

If you are losing to yourself often times you are making the mulligan choices. Sometimes you mulligan to oblivion like I did against the MUD deck. But to really be good with the deck you have to basically play the deck against everything. It isn't a combo deck that just worries about counter magic so knowing the important spells in each matchup is critical. I think my updated primer goes into this a bit and it is a few pages back. I'll try to update it with a new post soon. Good luck!

Seth

EddieO

03-13-2011, 02:32 PM

The Revoker was pretty underwhelming for me too.....as was the welder.

I am not a fan of the top......while its nice sometimes, I found myself loathing it.

I cut a Koth for a revoker and regretted it all day....

I would NEVER cut Figure.......leveling it to a monster 4/4 is easy as pie....to an 8/8 well that rarely happens, but in the end its not very often you need the 8/8 anyways. Figure is a big deal against Goblins.....Figure=Lackey Killer...3-4 bolts just won't cut it.

I am thinking about cutting a magus for another blood moon....I just like the the ability to keep moon on the table easier, while the magus gets killed so easy.

I've thought about the blue splash....and after this last tourney, where the black was OK at best.....I am thinking about it. I am just concerned about a 2 card combo with no card drawing really in the deck. I am thinking consuming vapors for the SB.....I love what it does against show and tell or even zoo....

Later EddieO

Grymer

03-13-2011, 03:23 PM

Well in my meta there isnt alot of goblins.. All the players there are too greedy they mostly play with alot of duels insted of basic's and 3-4 colors and mostly blue.. so its just paradise to play Imperial Painter... Thats why i doesnt play with figure.. My list is more control/combo based then the beat down plan.. :)

-Grymer

EddieO

03-13-2011, 03:42 PM

Well, if your meta is as you say, then Vexing Shusher will go alot farther in your meta than Revoker will....

Later EddieO

Yui

03-13-2011, 03:51 PM

Arianrhod

03-14-2011, 08:34 AM

Random thought: Has anyone tried Gamble with Welders in this version of the deck? My friend is building this deck, and gets irritated by the inability of the deck to tutor for Grindstone...we've tried adding a splash of blue through fetches and an island, along with Lotus Petals instead of Chrome Moxen. It just hasn't been working as well for some reason, so I'm looking for a red answer to the problem. All thoughts appreciated, thanks.

Schembo

03-14-2011, 05:11 PM

thnx for the reply's

I Played with 3 Blood moons and 2 magus recently changed it to 3 magus 2 moon. But i really liked the 3moon and 2 magus bcs moon doesn't get
destroyed by creature removal what happens to be around allot.
But i noticed that i missed creatures and 5 moon effect is i think the way to go so i thought +1 magus -1moon but maybe add more figure's but it doesn't do i for me i dunno why maybe bcs all the creature removal arround.

Sounds interesting the blue splash but what to cut and a transformational sideboard? In what way? Blue in main for Trinket, draw or tutoring?
This deck is so tight what to remove for those cards? Like to see what you had in mind as a decklist?

looking forward to see more of the primer i enjoyed reading it keep up the good work!

Me and my bro have been playing this deck with blue splash about year now with folloving list.

4 Imperial Recruiters
3 Magus of the Moon
4 Painter's Servent
4 SSG
4 Trinket Mage
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage

3 REB
4 Pyroblast
3 Grindstone
4 Magma Jet
3 Chrome Mox
2 Blood moon
1 SDT
1 EE

Lands
4 Mountains
1 Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors

We have got 2 top 8 place (finished 2nd and 5-8) and two times placed 9th on 7 tourney we played last year. there were 24-36 players on those tourneys.

EddieO

03-14-2011, 05:46 PM

I've honestly thought about the Chrome Moxes being replaced by Petal. I honestly hate the card 90% of the time I draw it. It's really only useful opening hand, but even then I dread pitching a card to it almost always. The only card I really wanna pitch to it is SSG....at this point, it's a necessary evil for first turn moon effects....it does get an artifact in the yard for welder too...

The problem with Gamble is its just so damn random....we have limited recursion effects, so its just too risky....not to mention there really isn't a lot of room for it...

Later EddieO

The Big Ragu

03-14-2011, 09:38 PM

Maybe I'm missing something, but I can't for the life of me see what's so good about Figure of Destiny.

Yui

03-15-2011, 03:08 AM

I have tried gamble in the past but i didn't like it. It added more randomness and you hand isn't that big later in the game.
Welder looked great but it didn't stay on the table for long everybody wanted it gone.

Isn't it a radical change for 4 blue cards? I will have to try it. What is the sideboard u use?
I couldn't think of what to remove for blue, i have the idea if you make a splash u can abuse i more
the sad part is i couldn't figure out how ^^

I like chrome mox in this deck, sometimes its hard to ptich something to it but i stay's on the table so later in the game
you can use it. Lotus petal is a 1 time thing.
When i draw it late game i use it for Jaya but i understand the feeling about the mox but i Lotus doesn't do it for me

figure is a good blocker and beater you can make it a 4/4 quick it's good against Gobbo etc
When it hits the table most of my opponents want to get rid of it asp and they waste removal on
it and not on my painter.

Schembo

03-15-2011, 06:16 AM

Isn't it a radical change for 4 blue cards? I will have to try it. What is the sideboard u use?
I couldn't think of what to remove for blue, i have the idea if you make a splash u can abuse i more
the sad part is i couldn't figure out how ^^

We have been playing Hibernation and Divert for blue, sometimes Submerge too. And for tutorable target there have been meekstone and chalice.

sroncor1

03-15-2011, 07:28 AM

So to address so of what people are saying about the blue splash. I have played the shit out of it and I think the format isn't right for a trinket Mage tool box in the deck. Moon effects are still the strongest first turn plays we can make an that is why You need to play it. There really is no place for lotus petal in the deck. Yes the chrome mox is a terrible top deck but sometimes that is the cost of doing business.

I want to say that often times imprinting SSG is the wrong play. Yes it is the card you imprint most often, but I would say that is only 50 percent of the time you have both in hand. The way he changes math and serves as a creature under moon lock down is really great. That is the reason I switched back to running 4 in the main deck.

I def think the de k needs a splash to be strong, but I only think the splash cards should be in the board. This way you can always blindly play first turn moon against anyone without care. That ultimately should be your goal against every deck you play against. Unless you know that a moon effect will not be strong due to knowing your opponents deck, that should be your play.

I really think if you don't run bolts and figure you are making the goblins match up harder. Right now the meta is very favorable for the deck as peole are finally stopping playing shitty rock decks. I hope to have something more substantial posted by the weekend.

Seth

Rath

03-18-2011, 12:58 PM

Going to a big tournament this weekend, so any input would be appreciated. This is in Canada (not sure if you have insight into the Toronto meta, but still...)

Note:
- I am running tops, so I want the shuffle effects. Not being able to manipulate my deck bothers me!
- Sideboard is where I have the most trouble. I want to run everything *grin*. It is set up right now against combo (trinisphere) and goblins (bolts) and annoying Emrakul (faerie and tormod's) and aggro (meekstone) and artifacts (spree). Shusher is staying, I could take out the meekstones, but then feel so naked against NO and Prog. and some aggro matchups. Revoker deserves consideration, but I am not sure where to put him (MD or board)

// Lands
6 Mountain
1 Arid Mesa
1 Wooded Foothills
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire

// Creatures
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
3 Figure of Destiny
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Goblin Welder <-- OPEN SLOT, I don't like him in here, maybe switch for a Koth?

// Spells
3 Chrome Mox
3 Blood Moon
2 Magma Jet <-- do these still make sense to include?
3 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Grindstone
1 Koth of the Hammer
1 Umezawa's Jitte <-- Again, OPEN slot... but I love having it in here as it makes combat so awesome (while it is random to draw this, its much less random with top)

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Lightning Bolt
SB: 3 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Vexing Shusher
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Basilisk Collar
SB: 3 Meekstone
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Trinisphere

Vesper Ghoul

03-20-2011, 09:52 PM

Drew was top 12 with a mono red list. Congrats!

Rath

03-21-2011, 11:15 AM

Drew was top 12 with a mono red list. Congrats!

You can see his decklist here (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37286)

Rath

03-21-2011, 12:28 PM

So I competed in my Legacy tournament this weekend. Not a SCG Legacy Open, but it was Toronto's Wizard World Legacy Foil Tournament. I placed 2nd (should have actually won *grin* you can see the report below).

Here is the list I ended up playing. I could not find my shattering spree's and no one had any to trade / sell, and I needed them all day as there were a lot of chalice's one 1!

// Lands
6 Mountain
1 Arid Mesa
1 Wooded Foothills
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire

// Creatures
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
3 Figure of Destiny
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage

// Spells
3 Chrome Mox
3 Blood Moon
2 Magma Jet
3 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Grindstone
2 Koth of the Hammer
1 Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Lightning Bolt
SB: 1 Goblin Welder
SB: 1 Hearth Kami
SB: 1 Viashino Heretic
SB: 1 Vexing Shusher
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Basilisk Collar
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Firespout

A couple quick comments:
- The firespouts worked wonders against dredge, goblins and affinity... surprisingly a good metagame call
- The toolbox of recruiter targets for artifact hate was pretty much useless, they were all too slow; however, the varied casting cost was nice when one guy got down a chalice @ 1 and @ 2
- I did not see the jitte the entire day; however, the collar was great, turning my recruiters into reasonable blockers against affinity
- I mulled every round, and mulled to 5 on 4 different games... this deck can get there though. I won on turn 2 on a mull to 5 at least once and won two of the other mull to 5's.

On to the report (5 rounds of swiss, cut to the top 8):

Round 1: Oldschool U/W control - Loss
- This is the guy who ended up in first after the cut to the top 8. I was just settling in and felt fairly cold to the deck. Dropped a first turn magus of the moon and held him off mana. He spell pierced my next play which threw me off and I played around spell pierce, even though I had grindstone and painter in hand. This gave him time to find a plains to swords my painter and then drop humility (?!? maindeck?). I still almost beat him down and grinded him out, but he beat me down with Elspeth tokens with 4 life and maybe 7 cards in his library
- Game two I punted by not blasting his wrath (with painter on the field) and then again stacking cards wrong off the top and not having enough mana to go off the turn before he unloaded on me. His deck ran humility, moat, all kinds of good enchantments I couldn't deal with *grin*

0 : 1

Round 2: U/W control - Win
- Demolished him in two games, the first I blood moon on turn two. He dazes, I pay with SSG, he dazes by returning a dual. Next turn, I drop the magus of the moon and that's pretty much it. Game two I had turn 1 blood moon again and he had kept a hand with no counters.

1 : 1

Round 3: Goblins - Win
- This was an interesting match up. A lot harder then I thought as they actually have a fair bit out outs with vial and incinerator. Anyways, game 1 I dropped painter and grindstone on turn one (on a mull to 5). Game 2 he totally punts. He drops a mountain to play lackey, I bolt it eot. On my turn I drop blood moon and he is screwed out of his white splash. He had a fetch in hand, could have dropped it for a plains, played vial and the next turn dropped lackey & been in business. Oh well. He develops his board, but 2 firespouts later its looking grim. The only tough play was that he had 3 goblins in play, enough to incinerator my servant, but I had grindstone as well so it was a bit of a standoff, with me losing the damage race. I played bolt to kill a goblin, he incinerated, I used SSG to activate grindstone in response. Love SSG!

2: 1

Round 4: MUD - Loss
This was so disheartening. I had no idea what he was playing, but dropped a first turn moon. He drops metalworker with some fast mana. I kill it, which sets him back, but I cannot find gas to get him down low enough before his artifact mana puts him back into it. Steel hellkite is brutal. Second game I pull it out with viashio heretic, after he gets down chalice @1 and 2. I nuked the 1, dropped grindstone, next turn nuked the 2, dropped painter and my blasts were online for protection, next turn gg. Last game he runs me over with 2 hellkites and a truck.

2 : 2

Round 5: Affinity - win
I have to win this to have a chance at being in the top 8 (two players at 3:2 can make it in). Again, no idea what he is playing so I blood moon him turn 1. He barfs his hand onto the table and signal pest + lots of dudes gets there. I boarded out all the moon effects to make room for artifact hate and bolts. He mulls aggressively to give himself options against moon (in the form of springleaf drum) which helps slow him down while I keep tutoring for different hate pieces. He kills them all with galvanic blasts, but misplays by killing welder rather then painter. I topdeck a grindstone like a champ and we move to game 3. The last game was good, but I firespout his first couple plays, he then drops disciple and ravager, which is scary, but my recruiter with a basilisk collar hold him off until I find grindstone for the win (recruiter had fetched painter). I dropped both and had a blast in hand to protect the painter from his galvanic.

3 : 2 (top 8, in 8th place!)

Top 8, vs U/W control - win
This match is against the guy I lost to first round. However, I am now warmed up and drop painter and top turn 1, turn two is grindstone and activation. Game two is much longer but I drop a turn one moon, which he can't deal with. It takes him a while to get up to coloured mana, and he has played some morphs which turn out to be exalted angels. He has to wrath at some point to get rid of my painter (with grindstone down) which deals with them, and I am at 1 life. Next turn I drop a koth and start the beats. At 5 counters, he lays down elspeth. I ultimate Koth and use my mountains (under moon of course) to ping the tokens and kill elspeth. Over the next 3 turns I just ping him to death.

Top 8, vs bloodghast + ichorid Dredge - win
I know he is on dredge so turn one I drop a naked grindstone and painter to prevent being cabal therapied. On a mull to 5...Seems good. Game two he mulls to 4, I drop turn one blood moon and that is that.

Top 8, vs Junk - loss
Game 1 I keep an awesome hand (top, moon, mox, recruiter, grindstone, city of traitors, mountain) . He toughtseizes, and takes top. I blood moon the next turn. Then recruiter for painter. He toughtseizes grindstone, so I spend 3-4 turns beating with recruiter and waiting. One nice tech was the painter naming blue made his Sword of Fire & Ice rather useless *grin*. I draw another grindstone (off a top in play) and that is it. Game two he again is under moon, but has a stoneforge mystic and jitte in play. He gets up to 3 counters, which is enough to kill my painter in play. I have grindstone, but cannot activate or he responds. I play properly by blasting his jitte, he kills painter (I only had 3 mana, so no grindstone in response)... but I forgot to declare blockers first, which means combat will goes through! New counters on jitte, so my painter in hand is useless as I still only have 4 mana. My own fault. Game 3 I blast an aether vial when I have him under moon again, instead of waiting to blast the jitte. It comes out and I draw 2 chrome mox, 3 lands, a Koth and die in a blaze of glory.

Second place, but a great deck and some great games!

If you are ever considering tops / vs. not, think on this. A lot of those games went long and I would find myself needing to sort my cards or dig for a piece. In probably 25% of my games I ended up using top to dig an extra card for either a surprise blast or the last piece of the combo I needed. Highly recommend trying the top.

GGoober

03-22-2011, 02:26 AM

Grats to Drew representing Painter to a strong finish at 12th place! I played him in the last (8th) round, and the deck was beastly. Jaya owned so hard it wasn't even funny!

I have no idea why SCG called Imperial Painter mono-red...

DrewliusMaximus

03-22-2011, 02:01 PM

Thanks! Nice job with Steel Stompy too Chris...very good showing for your homebrew.

I've been swamped since getting back to Houston, but I'll post a report soon.

sauce

03-22-2011, 02:17 PM

grats drew

Dark Zero

03-23-2011, 10:19 AM

Congratulations to Drew for doing so well with our nice deck in a big event like this. ;D

I'm very exited to hear about your report and matchups.

Personally I'm done with the blacksplash and tweaking my deck back to mono red, as the splash never seem to do what I expect from it. I will definately try this Ensnaring Bridge tech in my Sideboard, seems pretty decent to me with all those Eldrazi und Zoo decks being around.
As well I'm thinking about moving SDT back in this deck, as I miss him nearly every single game I play with this deck while Koth is pretty underwhelming most of the time.

When I fiddled out my new list, I will post a little more stuff, especially my view of different matchups I play against pretty often.

GGoober

03-23-2011, 10:28 AM

IMO there are a few cards that can't be cut in Imperial Painter:

2 Jaya
3 SDT

and the core cards of 6-7 blast, 6 Moon, 4 Painter, 4 Grindstone, 4 Recruiter. Drew mentions that Magma Jet was a little underwhelming and was thinking about the 4th Top in conjunction with an additional fetch. Top is quite powerful in this deck. Ensnaring Bridge is the solution to Emrakul while having other applications against bigger decks. While they try to find answers, you can sit back and dig to setup your combo (or if you have painter protect bridge with blast) and win with jaya.

Rath

03-23-2011, 01:15 PM

I will definately try this Ensnaring Bridge tech in my Sideboard, seems pretty decent to me with all those Eldrazi und Zoo decks being around.
As well I'm thinking about moving SDT back in this deck, as I miss him nearly every single game I play with this deck while Koth is pretty underwhelming most of the time.

I would say try ensnaring bridge is a good option for sure, also prevents a lot of other incidental creatures from attacking (MUD steel hellkite, coralhelm commander, etc).

I went up to 2 x Koth in my deck and don't regret it. In long games he is fantastic, he gives you outs to planeswalker control stalls, he is yet another must-answer card in a deck that can attack from many different angels. I could see going down to 1, but recommend trying to keep 1 in your list.

With SDT, I would cut the magma jets, as I also found them underwhelming. If I entered a tournament tomorrow, my list would be (I would like to fit in ratchet bombs, but they feel too slow unless against tokens):

// Lands
6 Mountain
1 Arid Mesa
1 Wooded Foothills
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire

// Creatures
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
3 Figure of Destiny
2 Magus of the Moon
2 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage

// Spells
3 Chrome Mox
3 Blood Moon
3 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Grindstone
2 Koth of the Hammer
1 1 Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Lightning Bolt
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 3 shattering spree
SB: 1 Stingscourger
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt / Relic of progenitus
SB: 3 Ensnaring bridge

DrewliusMaximus

03-24-2011, 12:51 AM

So SCG DFW went well again this year for Painter. I actually audibled into it at the last minute after playing a Jace-Land Control deck (like CAB Jace, but without Punishing Fire) for the last couple of months because I didn't want to go to time for 8 straight matches.

It had been a while since I tried to tweak a Painter list for the metagame, but the last time I thought about it, I really wanted to try Ensnaring Bridge in the board. Initially, Bridge was just a reaction to Emrakul matchups, but then I started to think about how turning off the combat phase would be pretty helpful against other stuff too. So, I played a list that's pretty similar to previous builds but with a different SB strategy.

My first match was against Junk with land destruction. Game 1 I played a first turn Magus and got the combo with Blast back-up on turn four. Game 2 started slow with him discarding and destroying lands while I was able to draw and play a Top to stabilize at 8 life, remove a few threats and combo for the win.

1-0 / 2-0

I played Steve with BG Depths in the second match. In Game 1 I had a Magus Thoughtsiezed before I could play it and then I drew into all four Painters while he created Marit Lage. In Game 2 I played a bunch of dudes while he Needled Jaya and Grindstone, but I was able to beatdown with Jaya, Magus and couple of SSG’s. In Game 3 I played a first turn Magus after he fetched a swamp. He played a few Lotus Petals to get colors and dropped a Hexmage. I got Jaya and then Recruited a Servant to take out his colored mana and then clear his board.

2-0 / 4-1

I had seen a bunch of Merfolk and I got to play my only match against it in round 3. Standard story here – I Recruited Jaya in both games with burn or Blasts along the way and won the match in two games.

3-0 / 6-1

My fourth match was against Landstill with Mox Diamonds. I can’t remember what happened in game 1, but I think I combo’d for the win. In game 2, he started with a Mox Diamond which allowed him to easily remove my second turn magus and play Elspeth. I lost quickly to a 5/5 flying Mishra’s Factory as I had only two land the whole time. Game 3 was an early Moon/Magus followed by Jaya+Painter for the win.

4-0 / 8-2

Match 5 was against Bant. I felt pretty good in the first game after I removed a Warmonk and dropped a Magus on his three dual lands. But the turn following my Magus he dropped a basic Plains, killed the Magus and beat me up. I think I combo’d fairly quickly in game 2. Game 3 was more drawn out. I had a Top keeping me alive with chump blockers while I dropped Servant with Grindstone out and a Blast in hand. The problem was that he had Pridemage out, so I kept the three lands I had in play untapped so I could combo in response to anything he did. I drew a fourth land and was now on a clock with a Goyf attacking that I couldn’t block in order to keep the combo alive. So I played the land and Blasted the Pridemage so I could then combo, but he had a Path in hand too. Next turn I topdecked Ensnaring Bridge but he topdecked another Pridemage and killed me.

4-1 / 9-4

I played Sang’s top 8 Junk deck in the sixth match. Game 1 was me getting landscrewed and losing without a chance. In Game 2 I believe I got the combo after a few rounds of beatdown by a Magus. The third game was a little back-and-forth at the beginning, but I quickly ran out of gas even with a Top because I drew into all lands, Moxes and SSG’s.

4-2 / 10-6

Feeling a little deflated now that I was out of top 8 contention, I was a unfocused going into match 7 against Dredge but I managed to pull out the combo in game 1. In game 2 I had to mulligan to 5 but I had a turn 2 combo in hand with a Servant, Grindstone, a City, a Tomb and a Mountain. I played Servant, but unfortunately he Cabal Therapied the Grindstone and went on to win. Game 3 I was able to start stuff on turn 2 with a Moon. He dredged into 3 Narcomoebas and began a slow beatdown while also playing two Needles on Grindstone, but I played Ensnaring Bridge then Trinisphere to keep him locked out just long enough to Recruit the one Jaya I kept in (to remove the needles) and assemble the combo before he could reanimate Angel of Despair.

5-2 / 12-7

At this point my friends Chris, Jeff and I were all in contention for top 16 and we figured it would be cool for a couple of us to get paid and then be able to start driving back to Houston. Of course I get paired with Chris who was playing his own creation, Steel Stompy. Chris probably remembers the details better then me, but what happened in both games was Jaya+Painter being ridiculous.

6-2 / 14-7

If I could have changed the MD, I would have gone +1 Moon, + 1 Fetchland, -2 Magma Jet. I think 6 Moon effects is about the right number, and I also want a little more assurance that I'll have ample mana in the first two turns. Four tops is worth trying for sure, but three has seemed sufficient so far. Although a fourth would definitely help the Junk matchup.

The Tops have been non-negotiable to me forever now. I acknowledge that others can achieve good results with a different approach, but I can't imagine bringing Painter to any larger tournament without them. A one-of Dragonlord has worked well for me as the beatdown option and I was happy with it again, mostly as a decoy. I also believe that every mono-red Painter build should have at least two Jayas. Moon effects are not actual "locks" by themselves, but with Jaya and Servant they are. She is pretty unfair in this deck.

In the sidboard, I will definitely be keeping the 4 Trinispheres, 3 Ensnaring Bridge and 1 Stingscourger. The rest of the board is not in stone.

I'll try to post some more thoughts later....

wolfstorm

03-25-2011, 02:31 AM

Nice job in Dallas Drew, I was planning on going myself with painter but some bad turn of events right before the weekend canceled that :(.. Ensnaring bridge seems insane.. Will probably add that to my board.

PanderAlexander

03-28-2011, 03:18 AM

Xiang

03-28-2011, 03:48 AM

congratz^^

Will you write a report? I would love to read it.

PanderAlexander

03-28-2011, 04:07 AM

I will try to write a report tomorrow, but I don't remember much honestly as I didn't take notes, I had really focused on the games. I didn't sleep the night before because the night before that I had a dream that I was late and missed the tournament. So lack of sleep with 13 hours straight of magic I'm dead tired but I'll remember stuff tomorrow. But one thing I will say is I love Painter! I will try to compare it to the mono-red Imperial Painter since I played that deck for awhile before.

Also as a side note, I beat two decks featuring Progenitus and Emrakul, one being NO Show, and the other Sneak Show, I was proud of those wins but I feel the Imperial Painter version was superior rather than beating down with 1/1 Welders like I did.

DrewliusMaximus

03-28-2011, 01:15 PM

Nice job Alexander!

I know there is a Next-Level Painter thread, but there's also got to be a general Painter-Grindstone thread too somewhere. Even without Recruiters, it's good to see Painter doing well.

@Sauce - Thanks. 13th aint bad either.

@Woflstorm - Sorry you couldn't make it man. We'll have to play sometime in Austin.

Tacosnape

03-28-2011, 02:16 PM

I don't know if this is the right thread but I just got 1st place at Starcitygames Los Angeles with UR version with a 10-1 record. I use to play the mono-red Imperial version but the blue adds a lot of complex plays we can take advantage of. BTW I sold my Imperial Recruiters there too :D

I watched the match. Very impressive run in the tournament. Congrats.:)

I was curious what your plan was to deal with Cephalid Breakfast's Serra Avatar. Had your opponent been alert enough to board it in, Grindstone suddenly turns from "Your deck is gone" to "You have 1 card in your library and I've just made your combo happen for you," and you'd need a Crypt or a Needle to stop it. I'm also curious how you deal with Emrakul-packing decks game one.

menace13

03-28-2011, 02:21 PM

I watched the match. Very impressive run in the tournament. Congrats.:)

I was curious what your plan was to deal with Cephalid Breakfast's Serra Avatar. Had your opponent been alert enough to board it in, Grindstone suddenly turns from "Your deck is gone" to "You have 1 card in your library and I've just made your combo happen for you," and you'd need a Crypt or a Needle to stop it. I'm also curious how you deal with Emrakul-packing decks game one.

He boards in Spellbomb and Crypts to empty the GY in response to the shuffle trigger of Emrakul or Avatar, Multiple Progenitus/BSC would result in a Draw.
Game 1 vs just Emrakul he cant win with the combo.

Tacosnape

03-28-2011, 04:39 PM

He boards in Spellbomb and Crypts to empty the GY in response to the shuffle trigger of Emrakul or Avatar, Multiple Progenitus/BSC would result in a Draw.
Game 1 vs just Emrakul he cant win with the combo.

That's pretty much what I thought. That's exactly why I can't ever get completely behind the deck. Unbelievable the guy didn't board in the Avatar. Turning a 2-card combo into a 3-card combo is pretty tech.

SMR0079

03-28-2011, 06:35 PM

Sell your Imperials while you can! Unless you like Alluren I supose ;)

PanderAlexander

03-29-2011, 07:17 AM

Sorry I couldn't come up with a nice report, here's a quick one:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20409-1st-Place-StarCityGames-Open-Los-Angeles

(nameless one)

03-29-2011, 03:39 PM

Sell your Imperials while you can! Unless you like Alluren I supose ;)

Its funny because that deck doesn't even need it too (Adding them just ruins youre manabase, especially against Tempo decks)

Anyways, the mono-red version, what is a good alternative to Imperial Recruiters? Not necessarily does the same thing but something along those lines.

I was thinking of running a mono-red version (due to budget reasons), like the old version. Would Goblin Welder + Gamble do the trick?

Thanks in advance.

Also, congratulations to you Alex.

PanderAlexander

03-29-2011, 03:57 PM

I think welder would be decent if the mono-red ran more artifacts such as Tops and artifact lands. For those that don't know, even with Blood Moon out, your artifact land is still a artifact so you can weld it in and out.

I would think Jaya with Welder would be good too, not as huge synergy as Intuition with Welder, but it's there.

DrewliusMaximus

03-29-2011, 11:24 PM

Mono-red (and builds with minor splashes) Imperial Painter is obviously much different than Painter-Grindstone decks like the one Alexander just won with.

Seems to me like the newer blue-based/multi-colored Painter-Grindstone decks focus on getting the combo efficiently and doing tricks with artifacts while Imperial Painter just fits the combo into a deck that plays Moons and abuses Painter's synergy with red cards that hate blue.

Recruiter allows you to play the Moon strategy most effectively. Without Recruiter, I guess Gamble and Welder is the best option for mono-red. You could also try to splash white for E Tutor.

PanderAlexander

04-03-2011, 01:25 AM

Tested the mono-red with artifact lands, tops, and welders and it's a no-go. It forces the deck to focus more on the combo yet doesn't have the counter backup and digging the UR adds with forces and brainstorms.

What makes the mono-red Imperial Painter decks good is that it doesn't rely on the combo. There's games I tested that I completely won without ever seeing the combo. And the games where my opponent handles all my threats, then I just draw the combo and win out of no where. Also I like the Wildfire Emissary some have been running, it's especially good against the Rock they're only removal is Swords and Vindicate, both white.

DrewliusMaximus

04-03-2011, 10:19 PM

Emissary is also a blocker against Knight all day. Looking back on my two losses at SCG Dallas, I really could have used an Emissary against Bant and Junk. I am definitely adding Emissary back into the board.

My current SB:
4 Trinisphere (in a healthy meta where combo has a presence, you need these or Thorns)
3 Ensnaring Bridge (I've loved them so far, even without playing against a single Emrakul deck)
3 Ratchet Bomb (these could change easily, but the Bombs handle a lot of randomness)
2 Revoker (perfect complimentary hate for Moon - they stop Artifact mana, Hierarch and protects from Pridemage, Planeswalkers and Equipment)
1 Emmissary (a nearly un-removable obstacle for Junk, Bant and Zoo)
1 Stingscourger (mainly for Emrakul, he ended up helping randomly in a few matchups)
1 Faerie Macabre (for me, boarding in a bunch of Relics required too many slots and Macabre is the next best thing for this deck )s

Rath

04-07-2011, 09:37 AM

This thread deserves a bump!
Imperial Painter is so well positioned against the current meta, it is kind of scary. Check the top 8 (and any other decklist) from most of the recent Starcity games legacy events and count the number of basic... 1-2 in most lists! A first turn moon effect is one of the strongest plays we can be making. Also with the resurgence of time spiral (sold my candelabra's for a LOT recently) our red blast suite is also ridiculously effective. Just remember to counter their High Tides. Finally, the combo plan is still quite effective as there are remarkably few prog/emrakul's being run, little to no counterbalance and less zoo then normal!

P.S > Candelabra being the new cost setting card at $250 makes recruiters start to look downright affordable!

DrewliusMaximus

04-12-2011, 11:14 PM

I think the meta can still swing against Imperial Painter mainly because of Junk and Zoo, but I agree that it's a good choice now that Emrakul is less prevalent (and can be dealt with Bridges).

I see the matchups like this:

Junk - Bad
Zoo - Bad
Merfolk - Very Good
High Tide - Very Good
Dredge - Good
Goblins - Bad
Bant - Even
Affinity - Even / Good
Landstill - Good
Storm - Even / Good
Lands - Very Good
Aggro Loam - Bad
Burn - Even / Bad
Team America - Good
CounterThopter - Good
Show and Tell - I think this is actually Good now
Natural Order - Same for this

EddieO

04-13-2011, 02:45 PM

For the most part, I agree with your list........I think you need to add a few other decks, like Belcher..........Terrible match up for us.......I don't think I have ever beat it. I think burn is even........I think Aggro loam is even also. Moon effects really screw their game up and I have had very good success against them. Lastly goblins, I don't view this match up as bad...........even at worst. While they are fast, we can be just as fast and they have very limited removal. Agressive mulligans are important against it for sure.

Later EddieO

DrewliusMaximus

04-15-2011, 12:05 AM

@EddieO

What do you board against Belcher? I'm not saying it's a great matchup, but with Trinispheres, Ratchet Bombs and now Revokers out of the board, I find this matchup to depend mainly on die rolls. So, I'd actually say my experience with Belcher has been about even.

Burn I can accept as close to even. I do win more than I expect against it, but I don't think of it as a good matchup either. The same with Goblins.

I actually haven't played against newer Aggro Loam builds without Chalice, but the builds with Chalice seemed to be winnable but generally unfavorable.

What other matchups are significant?

Edited Matchups:

Junk - Bad
Zoo - Bad
Merfolk - Very Good
High Tide - Very Good
Dredge - Good
Goblins - Even / Bad
Bant - Even
Affinity - Even / Good
Landstill - Good
Storm - Even / Good
Belcher - Even / Bad
Lands - Very Good
Aggro Loam - Even / Bad
Burn - Even / Bad
Team America - Good
CounterThopter - Good
Show and Tell - Even / Good
Natural Order - Even?

EddieO

04-15-2011, 07:46 PM

Well, game one tends to just be an auto loss unless they just draw that bad or Belcher fizzles....

I find Trinsphere sucks if we cannot get it out turn one.........as so many times I died with it sitting in my hand, castable on turn 2. I do play the black version though, so my SB is a bit different. I usually just add Spheres, though I wish they were Sphere of Resistance. Still doesn't solve the win game 2, they go first and win on the first turn again.

There is a lot of decks out there, but I think your list got most of them.....I guess G/W Haterade is a bad match up for us too.

Later EddieO

TheProfessor

04-16-2011, 04:16 AM

What I would do to get myself a set of Imperial Recruiters lol :p

How did you guys get your imperials? eby?

(nameless one)

04-16-2011, 10:22 AM

If I wanted to stick to a mono-red build (unlike Dunward Painter), what are some good alternatives without using Imperial Recruiters? Gamble with Goblin Welder perhaps?

sroncor1

04-16-2011, 11:09 AM

Congrats on the finish Drew. I think your breakdown of the matchups is spot on except I have to think goblins is in your favor. I know a lot depends on the build but at the last SCG open I went 6-3 beating goblins twice and losing once to a kid who top 16 with it. Actually all my loses were to top 16 finishers, but that is not really important. As long as you stop lackey and go for the combo you should be able to do it. I lost game three to 3 gempalm incinerators with a Stingscorger on a resolved Eldrazi. Yes he got an awesome draw but I still think it was winnable. Thankfully people realize belcher is a bad deck so we don't have to play against it much.

I'll be playing in a GP trial Tom so I'll post my list and a report following. I have made a few changes from my previous lists. As of yesterday I was testing a Dreadstill variant as I think dreadnought is strong right now. But that also means painter is strong so I'm running it Sunday.

I'm happy to see the Wildfire Emissary is working for people. I know when I first suggested it a few months ago people were a little hesitant but he really is a good creature for what he can do.

As to building the deck without recruiters I don't know what to say. You def need a tutor of some sort. Gamble and welders just aren't the same. Maybe try intuition as it let's you grab magus of the moon which is really important. Otherwise I might be inclined to use tops and enlightened tutor with welders. That might be able to get you some of the consistency you lose without Imperial Recuiter. Unfortunately this is one of those decks that you need a card that no other deck will use and as such you have to really commit to it. It took me over two years of trading to get recuiters. You just don't see them anymore. If you're thinking about playing the deck proxy it up and see how you like it. Play the shit out of it and then commit to buying and trading for the cards. With the price of staples skyrocketing you can get some real solid prices for you cards.

Seth

thebastard2

04-16-2011, 02:00 PM

What I would do to get myself a set of Imperial Recruiters lol :p

How did you guys get your imperials? eby?

I got 2 from a store in Japan ,back when wizards had just legalized P3 Kingdoms.The other 2 were from magictraders.

Unfortunately this is one of those decks that you need a card that no other deck will use and as such you have to really commit to it. It took me over two years of trading to get recuiters. You just don't see them anymore. If you're thinking about playing the deck proxy it up and see how you like it. Play the shit out of it and then commit to buying and trading for the cards. With the price of staples skyrocketing you can get some real solid prices for you cards.

I agree with this, it just feels different without the damned recruiters.

EddieO

04-16-2011, 10:41 PM

I bought all mine on here.............I have 7:)

Later EddieO

sroncor1

04-17-2011, 07:31 PM

Ok so I managed to go 5-1 at the PTQ today. I made top 8 as the the third seed and scooped to my friend jimmy as he was def. going to the grand prix and I am still unsure. Overall I have to say the deck is really positioned well in the current meta game. Zoo is almost a non factor now and you would have to be an idiot to run belcher with all the combo hate around. Getting rid of our two worst match ups is so good.

About the event. I beat show and tell/NO first round. Lost to merfolk( This may have been the first time ever in sanctioned play), then proceded to beat Belcher, Goblins, Dreadstill, and Thopters. I managed to get a little lucky against belcher, but otherwise I basically felt as if the deck was so much stronger than everything I played against. The merfolk match up was just weird and I made a misplay along with triple FOW in the one game I lost. I milled maybe half the time. The other times I used Magnus beats and a couple Eldrazi to smash face.

This brings me to my last point tonight. I can not say that the blue splash I am running is the best, but I think it is strong and just requires a lot of practice. The deck CAN NOT be built without Imperial Recruiters though. I am more than happy to offer advice on substitutions( Namely I think Intuition is your best bet), but I would really love this thread to not discuss the option of Recruiters or where to get them. I know a bunch of other threads have been derailed talking about the price of cards, but let's try to leave that out of this thread. i think we are very lucky that there is a small group of people that read/post/play this deck and as such we may be able to avoid the decline in some of the posting here on the Source recently. Sorry for getting on a soap box, but I want this thread to try and advance Imperial Painter, not create bastardized versions of it. I know I personally don't have the time to put into the deck like I use to, but there are some great posters here and we should all be working towards that goal.

I'll get an updated list hopefully within the next two days or so. I am trying out a few cards in some of the flex spots, but my list hasn't changed much in the past 4 months or so. I want to get into to sideboard and strategy that I have worked out with my blue splash as I think the basis can be applied to all versions of Imperial Painter.

Seth

TheProfessor

04-18-2011, 02:13 AM

@ EddieO -- Damn what do you do with 7 imperials? :p

@ Seth -- Thanks for the tourney report what was the deck list you used for that tourney?

@Nameless -- Actually been researching for the past few months now if an alternative could be done for imperials.... have to be honest man. Its hard to replace the MONO red's synergy with Imperial. As it acts as a toolbox -- gamble will also act as a tool box but the drawback makes you card advantage and tempo. No other search cards in red that can trade 1 for 1.

Anybody selling their imperials? lol (and yes i am looking for a set haha)

What is the going rate of these guys (NM-M cond? ~175-200usd?)

EddieO

04-18-2011, 02:58 AM

Sroncor1, what list are you running now? I know last time we chatted you were doing the show and tell SB option, but are you running any blue cards main deck? I've always liked the black splash, though I have been running the deck mono-red since I bought the cards for MTGO....only problem with MTGO is the decks are so random.....and I swear ANT players get the luckiest draws against me. I've lost more on the first and 2nd turn to ANT than I can count, 75% its just iggy loop.....

I am intrigued by the list posted a few pages back using black as the primary color with discard, etc. I guess its more similar to the U/R welder version, as it's going straight combo pretty much. I am gonna pick up the cards online and give it a spin, but LED isn't cheap!

TheProffessor, I bought my first four for this deck. Then I bought one for my EDH deck. I then really wanted to try Aluren, but I hate having to pull apart decks, so I started to buy 3 more to complete another play set.....I found 2, but never had much luck finding a third, so I gave up....I stopped playing Aluren anyways, just WAY to inconsistent and too much hate for it.

Later EddieO

sroncor1

04-21-2011, 06:20 PM

I'll break down my deck in a bit I, I really love the way it has been playing lately. When I get a chance to sit down at a comp. for an extended period of time I'll do a full decklist. What I was thinking we could do is every couple days start a discussion about possible cards and or strategies. That way we can advance the deck and help those who are new to it to understand some of the subtle points and choices which may seem alien. So many people who are unfamiliar with the deck laugh at FoD and can't see why I play it.

In other news there are some really interesting cards in the new set and I do not mean the new counterspell. But the red Priest of Glix really interests me. that and the blue guy who we can drop for three and then have parity with any creature on the board. I have to test it, but seems like a really strong tutor target.

I am currently not running teh Phyrexian revoker in my built. In theory I love the card and a tutorable Pithing Needle seems like it should be played but I really can't come up with a situation where I would actually do that. It's good against Belcher if you guess right but otherwise vial really has not been a problem for me.

Seth

Raggedjoe

04-21-2011, 10:44 PM

Anybody selling their imperials? lol (and yes i am looking for a set haha)

What is the going rate of these guys (NM-M cond? ~175-200usd?)

Going rate is ~200 each, though playsets can go for as much as 900 since finding someone with 4 is very hard.

I used to play this deck, but I've stopped and I sold my set a few months ago for 950 USD, turned around and bought about 100 cards to play around with Bant lists :)

sroncor1

04-23-2011, 08:37 PM

Ok so I went 4-1-1 with a loss in the top 8. My only loss in the swiss came from the fact that I didn't get out of the hospital in time and missed the first round. Here is my deck list.

4 Imperial recruiters
4 SSG
4 Painter's servant
4 Grindstone
4 Magus of the Moon
3 FoD
4 Grindstone
3 Chrome Mox
6 Blast effects
2 Koth
4 Lightning Bolts
1 Goblin welder
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient tomb
4 Scalding tarn
5 Mountains
2 Volcanic islands
2 Blood Moon

Side;
1 jaya Ballard
4 intuition
4 show and Tell
4 Emrakul
2 Blood Moon

I was exhausted but the deck performed brilliantly. I beat junk, high tide, dreadstill, and merfolk. My loss came at the hands of a weird artifact deck. Not making excuses as I probably was too tired and I prob should have mulled, but I was basically always holding the wrong combo pieces, like three copies in each game. Sometimes you get unlucky. Overall I think this is the most powerful version I have ever played. it is so strong in the meta right now I highly encourage you guys to try it out. being able to Intuition just gives you so much. It is just hard to get the correct piles. The main deck welder could be anything right now, but in theory he is good in the meta. I actually have never used him yet other than a beater or to bait a counter. jaya Ballard or Wildfire could both be otpions and I do like some of the new cards in the new set.

On to the deck, other than against Merfolk you should have dead cards in every match up. That is just the way it goes. Often times it is the lightning bolt, but keep it main decked! But this aspect gives you a unique option. I usually board in intuition if I'm on the draw in games 2 or 3. It is great, gives you flexibility and allows you to get the piece you need with more information of what your opponent will be doing. On the play I love the Eldrazi package. It really is so strong, between that and your painter combo, you are in great shape with such a high density of threats. The Eldrazi package is actually really more dynamic than it looks.

We can start talkingf about plans of attack and sideboarding if people want. I tried to help some of the people in the U/R painter thread but was basically told I was wrong by someone who thinks there are decks with NO that have goyf in the sideboard. What can I say I guess I am just a bad player. Anyway, fuck them and we can just talk about this, our deck beats theirs anyway!

Seth

Yui

04-24-2011, 05:14 PM

finally i found some time to post something again.

Seth, i love you list and Gratz on the finish. But i have a question don't you miss Top.
I have tried the other R/U list posted a while back(4 trinket mage), what i loved about it is that you have search for your Stone.
The part i hated about it, was the turn 1 moon effect screwed your opponent and yourself. It was hard to what was the play in the deck.
But the mono version was better.
The part i like about this list is that it has the U color sideboard. But the sideboard? what your plan against combo etc?
For the flexslot what do you think about Kargan Dragonlord that drew used?

grt

sroncor1

04-24-2011, 06:50 PM

To be honest sometimes I miss the Trinket mage build. I really do love the card and i loved having the ability to get some really strong artifacts. it may be something to revisit with zoo not around as it had a horrible match up against zoo. Currently I'm really happy with the current list and doubt I'll be going back to the Trinket mage list anytime soon. It def is strong, and if Junk is big in your area it might be the right play. I just think Intuition is slightly better as it can get you anything in the deck. Instant speed is not bad either.

Dragonlord would be a suitable addition if you want. I tested him initially when he was released in place of FoD and I didn't like it. I haven't tested him since but he could be strong. personally I would add something that is a little more dynamic to the deck, but it is preferance at this point. I do think you should have a Welder someplace in the 75 though.

Other crads I would love to fit are Wildfire Emissary, another Welder, possible that new clone in the new set, jaya Ballard, or Mox Monkey, along with the other two blasts. Obviously there isn't room for all that but that is what I am playing with these days.

Seth

The Big Ragu

04-24-2011, 11:23 PM

- I don't care for blue splashes in this deck. You'd jeopardize your entire mana base just for Trinket Mage? I don't get it.
- Black splashes can be good for specific metas.
- 2 Chrome Moxes seems to be the definitive number to run.
- Jaya makes little sense as a sideboard option. 1 - 2 should always be ran in the main deck.

sroncor1

04-25-2011, 06:18 AM

@ the Big Ragu- I think it has been established that 3 chrome mox are the optimal number. I can't remember any playing less than that and i highly recomend against it. You have to balance first turn moon effects against some dead late draws. That is why three works. Jaya Ballard actually doesn't have to be in the deck. She is a good catch all answer but is slow and fragile. There are times when other creatures are actually stronger. If your oppenent plays white she really isn't that strong at all. She becomes a liability. If you are worried about artifacts use the Viashino Heretic, he is just better. I'm not saying she is bad, but she isn't required by any stretch. I know Trinket Mage may not look like much, but try him out. He really changed the way the deck played. A slight blue splash does not wreck the mana base at all. You just have to be smart in how you fetch and set up your turns. My only mana problems have come when I draw too few and I run 19, which is one more than most.

Seth

kusumoto

04-25-2011, 10:18 AM

I went 4-1 in swiss and a loss right away in the top 8 at a 31 man tournament this weekend with this list.

4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Magma Jet
3 Magus of the Moon
3 Blood Moon
3 Figure of Destiny
3 Chrome Mox
2 Pyroblast
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
10 Mountain

Sideboard

3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Shattering Spree
1 Pyroblast
4 Trinisphere
3 Tormod's Crypt

I saw combo elves, UGB countertop with goyfs and bobs, infect stompy, countertop thopters, and the gate in the swiss. The loss was to combo elves. Then in the top 8 I got to lose to combo elves again. I really miss the days when these guys had Grapeshot instead of Emrakul.

I'm pretty sure the mono red versions just can't beat combo elves.

5doorfury

04-25-2011, 02:05 PM

Hey Kusumoto.

I was the elves player in Top 8. As I mentioned in our match, I also dabble in Painter variants quite a bit.

I really do think that Imperial Painter (the moon effects specifically) is really strong in the current meta, but aside from siding pyroclasm or volcanic fallout (neither of which are even guaranteed to stop us) I think the matchup will still be tough. I am interested to see if anyone else has a different opinion though?

Seanrus99

04-30-2011, 10:22 PM

This is my first post on here and I'm just starting to play legacy MTGO only. My only question for now is Goblin Welder a must have?
He seem pretty good but he's not cheap and space in this deck is hard to find.

sroncor1

05-01-2011, 02:34 PM

No he is not required at all. I however have no idea what the online meta is like and he may make the deck stronger. I often times play without him though. Hope this helps.

Seth

sroncor1

05-10-2011, 10:38 PM

So I'll be playing this deck this weekend in two events. Don't know if I'll make any substantial changes to the deck. I have been testing out some of the new cards and I really like Phyrexian Metamorph as a tutorable target in some matchups. Without really knowing what is going to happen with mental misstep it is hard to really plan for the meta. I really want two more blast effects in the board and may cut a moon effect for one of them. Vexing Shusher and Goblin Welder both become stronger I feel.

I have also been trying out a few different sideboard packages. With the decline of zoo the drive for Show and Tell isn't as strong. It is immune to the changes a Mental Misstep metagame would provide though. I have tried a few other sideboards that allow the deck a more controlling role. It tries to capitalize on cards like lavamancer and Firespout to name a few. I have been trying to fit Jace in here someplace as he is so strong with Koth as finishers. Anyway what do you guys think?

Seth

sroncor1

05-10-2011, 10:38 PM