[Deck] Imperial Painter [Archive] - Page 5

DrewliusMaximus

05-16-2011, 01:24 AM

I was finally able to test an idea this weekend that I’ve been thinking about for a few weeks now: MM in Mono-Red Imperial Painter. That’s right, I’m infecting this thread with Misstepmania. Here’s the thing: I think MM is awesome in this deck.

Proxy-testing before the release was promising and I went undefeated Saturday (5-0) to split in the finals at my local tournament. My friend, David, and I also ran several test matches yesterday against Junk and the results favored me. That’s the first time I’ve ever had consistent wins against David playing Junk and MM played a significant role countering Discard, STP and Top (the Ensnaring Bridge SB plan helps a lot too). This is the list I played:

4 Tomb
4 City
9 Mountain
3 Fetch

2 Mox
4 SSG

4 Top
4 Recruiter

4 Servant
2 Jaya
5 Blast
4 Grindstone

3 Magus
3 Moon

3 MM
1 Revoker
1 Dragonlord

SB
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Ratchet Bomb
3 Lightning Bolt
1 MM
1 Macabre
1 Revoker
1 Metamorph
1 Blast

Now I’m not going to claim anything totally conclusive from a couple of weeks of testing and one local tourney, but MM has been impressive. It provides critical moment protection against spells like STP, Path, Lightning Bolt, and early counters against Thoughtsieze/Inquisition/Duress, Hierarch, Vial, Lackey and Dark Ritual.

The three biggest plays I think Imperial Painter gains from MM are a free response to removal when activating Grindstone, a free response to a floated white mana STP/Path after you play Magus, and protection from discard (first turn especially) so that you can keep your Moon/Magus or combo pieces. Beyond that, our first turn matchup against combo gets a boost and we still get an answer to some aggro-ish problems like Lackey and Hierarch.

Of course MM’s lack of a mana requirement makes it powerful in the early game, but it also seems to work extremely well later in the game with Sensei’s Top because when assembling the combo you can keep an MM on top of your library just in case you need to counter any 1 cc removal.

Speaking of Tops, I like 4. I had been thinking about it for a while, but only recently in an effort to improve the Junk matchup did I actually start testing a full set. Despite the occasional double Top in my opening hand, the increased assurance of finding and resolving a Top before running out of gas has been more than worth it to me so far.

Also of note, the Ensnaring Bridge plan out of the board has worked very well and Phyrexian Metamorph is a pretty cool toy. In my first match on Saturday I boarded Metamorph in against Eva Green and found myself in a position where I had a bunch of land, a Recruiter, a Servant, and a Grindstone in play with Metamorph in hand, while facing down a Goyf and Tombstalker and a Null Rod shutting down my combo. I was about to play the Metamorph naming Tombstalker to buy some time but luckily realized I could name Recruiter instead. So I named Recruiter, fetched Jaya and played her, chump blocked the Goyf to survive a turn while taking 5 in the air, and then Jaya’d the Null Rod and got the combo win. That Metamorph is a tricky little bastard.

sroncor1

05-17-2011, 09:54 AM

Drew congrats on the finish. I have also had a lot of recent success with the deck. this past weekend I again went X-1-1 with my build. I like what you did with the deck. I have not found MM to be a problem , but I really never thought of using it in the main. I'm happy metamorph has worked out for you. When I saw that card I knew it was bound to be a good one of.

About my last tournament. In the first round I was paired against Merfolk sporting MM. Game one I dropped Imperial recruiter for Painter and then two turns later I played Grindstone with REB back up and his FoW was not able to get there. I boarded in another pyroblast and took out a Moon effect. In game two I dropped first turn Grindstone. He had Cursecatcher in play and then drops second turn standstill. I draw Painter and say fuck it and break Standstill with mana floating in case of daze. He draws 2 MM and a wasteland. He is able to hit my sol land and we play draw go for a bit and he resolves a few Merfolk. I eventually find the mana and the game is over. Round two saw me paired down which basically meant I could not draw in, and I should have known this. I played against Team Italia and I have to say the deck isn't that good. Why play white control without Swords. Game one is very slow. I have lots of land. Eventually Painters keep him off of equiping Swords and SSG do a great impression of being a creature as I slowly take his life total down. Eventually he gets an active jitte with two counters and I topdeck the Grindstone for the win. Game two is rather anticlimatic as i drop a first turn Blood Moon. He plays a Grim Lavamancer, but can't keep the yard stocked and I slow roll the combo. Round three I loss to Tendrals. It happens, I think i kept a bad hand second game, but I had already mulled to 5 and two thoughtseizes where able to rip it to pieces. Round four I played against affinity. He did stupid stuff like empty his hand on the second turn and I said out and did dumber things by grinding him out with SSG as mana. Game two he dropped a second turn Revoker and thought he was safe. I had the REB in hand and tutored up Painter, using SSG I blasted the Revoker and milled him after he again emptied his hand on the second turn with some big artifacts staring me down. I have to say the affinity deck may be for real, but it loses hard to combo. The next round I'm paired with Paul(Starcitygames Bmore winner) with his merfolk list. i have never lost to him but he is my friend. I opt for the draw thinking we both make top 8. we didn't I got 9th due to getting paired down. Oh well, the top 8 had two combo, two counterbalance, two merfolk and one BUG at least.

The deck continues to be really strong. I'm not sure the Show and Tell sideboard plan is really needed anymore as zoo is almost completely absent and that was the main reason to bring it in. It does help the junk match up, but I like what Drew has found with MM in that matchup. I am not happy with my combo match up to be honest. Although I'm not sure how to fix it. MM will help and I am testing some other options if I decide to go with a splash.

@Drew with your new list how do you feel about combo. I guess we should make the distinction between those with and without Burning Wish.

Seth

sroncor1

05-19-2011, 06:47 AM

So I did some testing with Mental Misstep last night against BUG, dreadstill(B/U), Ari Lax tendrils, and goblins. I have to say the card is strong. I haven't tested pure junk yet, but the dreadstilll list I used had ghastly demise and a stable manabase so the results should be similar. I had to cut 2 FoD and both Koths which broke my eart. currently I am running 3 maindecked with an additiona Goblin Welder as he helps beat MM and still keeps the ways of beating lackey.

I am still trying out some ways to improve the combo match up but the MM helps far more than I thought it would as it helps stop thoughtsieze and durress making it easier to combo off. I'll be playing in two events this weekend so I will give updates of my final list and some results.

Seth

Vesper Ghoul

05-19-2011, 09:21 AM

While I went 1-3 in Charlotte with Painter and was very frustrated with the deck when discussing Mental Misstep I fell in love again. I am glad to see the forum's feelings are with me. Although I always ran blast heavy I think I may continue to and still add MM.

In Charlotte it was Zoo (won game one, drew 6 str8 lands game 2, game 3 mulled to 4 and almost pulled it off, Burn (WTF), Ctop Thopter (won), 4 color Scepter Chant (you gotta be kidding right)

I love Figure as well but maybe Dragon Lord may be better now. If I go to Providence I am pretty sure I am Painting.

DrewliusMaximus

05-20-2011, 12:06 AM

Seth, I think the overall combo matchup is better now even though I don’t have Trinisphere anymore. I played TES last weekend and won easily, but that was because I had a turn 1 Magus on the play in game one and he gave me three turns in the second game to assemble Painter + Blasts. Nonetheless, now you get 4 pieces of disruption that don't require you to have three mana on turn 1. In fact, they don't even require you to have a turn 1.

One thing I’m changing in my SB that should help Combo a bit more is +1 Revoker, -1 Lightning Bolt. Revoker naming LED/Mox screws them up pretty badly in combination with Moon, MM, etc. while adding a clock and it’s an easy turn 1 play.

Regarding Welder, I can see him being awesome right now. I’d consider switching the Dragonlord out for Welder, but I like having one unconditional beatdown option and I’m trying to give myself as many outs as possible to Chalice @ 1.

Rath

05-24-2011, 10:31 AM

Regarding Welder, I can see him being awesome right now. I’d consider switching the Dragonlord out for Welder, but I like having one unconditional beatdown option and I’m trying to give myself as many outs as possible to Chalice @ 1.

Make sure to run shattering spree in your sideboard (x4 if you have the space). That plus one viashino heretic or one hearth kami should work wonders. You can leave 1 welder in the main, and switch it out as appropriate for other artifact hate.

Basically, I feel Painter is extremely well positioned right now. We have answers for the blue control decks with our blasts and now MM. We can wreck almost every other deck with a first turn moon effect, and we can combo out under most hate (we don't even care if painter is shackled!). The only issue is the number of 1-drops we play against MM. It almost makes me wish grindstone was 2. However, you can always recruiter for a welder in game one if grindstone is countered and then wait to cast welder until you have a blast in hand... they only can have 4 MM.

My sideboard plans right now, and this is tentative, are as follows:
3 x shattering spree
1 x viashino heretic
1 x hearth kami
3 x lightning bolt
1 x vexing shusher (debating moving him main!)
3 x meekstone (could be ensnaring bridge or also trinisphere or even MM if I wanted to leave my mainboard the same)
3 x tormod's crypt

------------
As you can see, it is a work in progress as I am not 100% sure if it is right to leave out faerie macabre for against decks with Emrakul.

In terms of my deck: I play 6 blasts, 1 jaya, 1 welder, 2 magus of the moon, 3 blood moon, 2 figure of destiny (am testing dragonlord and a revoker instead) and 2 SDT main.

I had to take out 1 figure, 1 top and 2 magma jet to fit in 4 x MM... still not 100% sold and am debating taking out 4 MM, putting 3 in my sideboard, and running 1 shusher main + 1 top + 1 figure + 1?

sroncor1

05-30-2011, 09:07 PM

Just to update I've been testing a lot of legacy lately and I def think this deck has some balls in the new meta.

@drew. I'm still not sold on tops but I'm glad they are working for you. I have actually completely dropped any beaters from my deck in order to fit in welders and jaya, which I'm very happy to have back. I've been playing with some of your ideas from your sideboard and have to say I really like them. I might have to up graveyard hate as my meta is filled with graveyard decks. And weirs artifact so Viashino Heretict is a must. I'll post a list soon.

Seth

Jelmerz77

06-03-2011, 06:27 AM

@Seth and or Drew,

Did any of you test Spellskite? I could see it as a 1 off as extra tuterable protection for Painter.
Any thoughts on that?

Cheers,

J

Grymer

06-03-2011, 11:14 AM

Why play a 1 off Spellskite ?=!=
It makes no sense to me.. becus if you can tutor it.. then why not just tutor the 2end painter servent or moon effect=?

Jelmerz77

06-03-2011, 11:47 AM

I could see some situations where a Spellskite could act as an actual "Kira". Which would be better than to tutor for a back up painter.
I don't say that that it is good enough as a 1 off, I was just asking if it was considered.

sroncor1

06-07-2011, 10:15 PM

I'm not so sure about Spellskite myself as I would rather just tutor another threat rather than an answer. That being said I haven't tested it but encourage you to try. It def is a strong card and it can help protect the combo so I understand what you are thinking. Give it a whirl and let us know what you think. I would love to have some hard data.

I missed the GP but I have top 8 the last four tournaments I entered with the deck. I slightly modified it and the board each time. My current build drops the Show and Tell board plan as I suspect JTMS to increase. Zoo isn't that popular so I reconfigured the board to excel in the new MM meta. I'll get a deck and side up in a couple days after I do some more testing against combo. I'm sort of assuming I'm a dog to zoo so I am no longer testing that match up. And the new list finally has Spinal Villian. Just FYI.

Seth

sroncor1

06-27-2011, 10:33 AM

So I played in the Baltimore starcity open this weekend. I ended up going 5-2 and dropping, knowing all along that I would not be staying the whole day as unfortunately I don't have the time for magic I once did. Really I should have been 6-1 as my last round lost was to paul Lynch with Merfolk. Not to take anything away from Paul as he is a good friend and I'm happy that if i was going to lose it would be to the best Merfolk player I know. But i did keep some loose hands and I didn't sideboard for game two, so I guess you could say I was already thinking about going home. I would have felt like complete shit if I had beaten Paul and then dropped, although if your reading this I'm very disappointed in you Paul that you weren't able to repeat!

On to the list.
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 painter's servant
4 SSG
3 Goblin Welder
1 Jaya Ballard
4 magus of the Moon
4 REB
4 Lightning Bolt
2 pyroblast
3 Chrome Mox
4 Grindstone
2 Blood Moon
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 arid mesa
2 Volcanic islands
4 Mountains
3 Mental Misstep
Side
3 Emrakal
3 inkwell leviathan
4 intuition
4 Show and Tell
1 viashino heretic

About the deck:

Overall I loved the deck. It is so strong and powerful now. The only cards I would change would be possibly Jaya and adding another Volcanic island in place of a Mountain. The Jaya could be anything from mental Misstep, fabricate, Trinket mage, Goblin Welder, another blast effect, or any number of other cards. Personally i like the versatility, but she was sided out every game 2 and 3 after I knew what I was playing. But it is nice to have that out to nearly everything. Otherwise the main is really tight and I wouldn't change anything. I'm not afraid of Wasteland after this weekend, so I might want to add another Volcanic to make the board stronger.

About the board:

The Eldrazi plan is not as strong as it was weak to Jace. I actually lost a feature match due to my opponent getting it as a top deck. Inkwell is just stronger and decks can't deal with it. I only boarded them in during that one match and I will not be playing them again. I kept wanting to have Koth or something stronger against the red splash landstill decks. Moon effects do nothing against them. But Inkwell and Koth are great against them. I'm even tempted to test running our own Jace, although I think this is the danger of too many cool things. right now I would increase the Inkwell to 4 and add three Koth and drop the Heretic. i never really cared about artifacts the whole day. Sort of like the Revoker, the idea is great, but i just never want to actually use it. Inkwell is not the strongest against Zoo, but he is strong. I would not worry about Zoo much as the current environment is very hostile to it. If anyone wants a detailed report let me know and i'll try to post something.

@Vesper ghoul- I haven't tested the Spinx yet, but to be honest I think I just want more Inkwell as he is so strong against Jace and i loved playing him each and every time. Life gain and vigilance is cool, but it is so relaxing knowing they can not remove or stop your threat.

Seth

Malchar

07-13-2011, 05:30 AM

I'm going to try running a list similar to sroncor1's at my weekly tournament this week. I've been playing this deck since it's inception, but I took a break right before vengevine-survival showed up. My list is a little outdated, so I'll try this new list and see how it goes. Unfortunately, I don't have show and tell, so I'll have to use a normal sideboard. It will probably be something like this:
4 chalice of the void
4 leyline of the void
vexing shusher
faerie macabre
2 more blasts
etc.

I do have one question though. What do you usually use mental misstep against? Should I save it to protect my pieces and counter opposing removal, or just use it proactively whenever I get a target?

Also, I've been thinking of using a stoneforge mystic package for this deck. It seems great since you can recruit the mystic, and equipment already have good synergy with the deck. Also, it opens up auriok salvagers again, which has helped out this deck in the past. The mystic/equipment should help to stabilize the board while you gather combo pieces. I used to run sword of light and shadow maindeck, and I've won many games by simply beating down with an equipped painter, recruiter, or spirit guide, and that was before stoneforge even existed.

Edit: I'll also be cutting the fetch since my meta is heavy on stifle and even bind in maverick. At least for now I'll be using a mono-red list, so there's no disadvantage.

The Big Ragu

07-13-2011, 07:37 AM

Based on how far this deck has come, I'm wondering why it's not listed as a DTB. It's so perfectly positioned against the current metagame. Is it because of the rarity of Recruiters?

Grymer

07-13-2011, 07:41 AM

About mental misstep. i think its the counter you needed to protect magus of the moon when an opponent flood white mana for stp and then let magus resovels :)

sroncor1

07-13-2011, 09:34 AM

Using MM actually depends on the matchup. I would say that less than half the time I actually use it to protect my pieces. For instance against goblins you just need to slow them down so hit vial and lackey. Same thing with Merfolk hit the vial to by time. Against the UW control decks I usually never think twice about throughout it at a first turn ponder or second turn brainstorm. It protects against good discard spells, ie Hymn is not good anyway so who cares. And obviously it beats other MM. Keeping dudes alive is good but to be honest it serves a stronger role to set up a chance to combo. Don't forget we are a very fast deck and the gain in tempo is huge that it gives us. The fact thatthe tempo also provides card parity is amazing.

I would recommend Koth at least two, preferable three in the 75. He kills jace and junk.

Seth

Rath

07-13-2011, 10:30 AM

Based on how far this deck has come, I'm wondering why it's not listed as a DTB. It's so perfectly positioned against the current metagame. Is it because of the rarity of Recruiters?

I agree! This deck is wonderfully positioned right now and is still my go-to deck. It's really the availability and cost of recruiters that keeps it below the radar.

Overall, MM is a great parity / tempo card for us, and I generally use it to stop STP or Lightning bolt / glavanic blast against a painter in response to a grindstone activation. Otherwise, it is totally a tempo spell. Setting goblins or merfolk or control back a turn is usually all the time we need. I tend to play every spell out as if it is a "must-counter", which works as almost every spell in the deck is a "must-counter"!

@ Malchar:
I second the Koth recommendation, he is amazing, especially with a moon effect out. Don't bother with Stoneforge. I also wouldn't run chalice as we want our 1 cc and 2 cc spells. I would run shattering spree x4 and hearth kami x1 or heretic x1 instead to answer opposing artifacts and chalices.

Richard Cheese

07-13-2011, 10:45 AM

Based on how far this deck has come, I'm wondering why it's not listed as a DTB. It's so perfectly positioned against the current metagame. Is it because of the rarity of Recruiters?

Because there is a system to which decks show up in DTB, based on performance in large tournaments reported on thecouncil.es. Imperial Painter doesn't show up that often, and therefore is not likely to be found in DTB any time soon.

From This thread: (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5460-DTBF-Philosophy-amp-Deck-Selection/page2)

It simply happens that the guys from The Council are doing a truly awesome job keeping a tally of Legacy tournaments from all over the world, filtering them into sensible categories, and plotting all of that into a nice chart, so we have agreed - until further notice - to just refer to their data for our own DTB forum.

The rule we have agreed upon is straightforward: each deck making up 4% of the total Top 8 placements for the past month will be a DTB for the next. Looking at ' data, this will usually put between 5 and 10 decks in the top forum.

and more recently:

Slight change in methodology: Pablo (the guy behind TCDecks) let me know that he has actually programmed a more sophisticated version of his metagame ranking, not yet publicly linked from his homepage, which weighs placements according to the number of rounds won - meaning that placing in bigger tournaments counts for more. It only makes sense to switch to this system; the point cutoff will be set at 3.4% (again, this was chosen by looking at the previous months and picking a number that would usually give between 6 and 10 DTBs).

Malchar

07-13-2011, 07:48 PM

Should I bother to put something in the sideboard against storm/spiral-tide, or is having blasts #7 and 8 enough? Also, last time I checked, belcher was making an appearance in my meta, which is why I thought of using chalice with X = 0.

sroncor1

07-14-2011, 08:09 AM

You don't need to worry about spiral tide. You are faster than them and you run as many counters. LED based combo decks are another story. You could try 4 trinisphere but that only really gets belcher. You are better to just mull to fast kills or hands that can have active REB as hard counters on your first tuen

Seth

Rath

07-14-2011, 03:21 PM

Yeah, it's tough, but aim for hands with painter + grindstone or blasts on turn 1 or 2... with a warrens kill, you usually have a turn or two to win, which is often enough. With a belcher kill, you need to have blasts with painter online.

Trinisphere used to be what I ran, until I realized it didn't help me enough against almost anyone, even storm combo. I once lost to a deck which slow-rolled me after I dropped a first turn trinisphere. Paying 3 for everything in the deck is annoying and slows me down a LOT. My main game plan is honestly dropping either a first turn moon, or first turn grindstone and painter. If I need protection, I might drop painter and grindstone on different turns, but always go for a first turn moon!

Malchar

07-15-2011, 03:01 AM

Here's a mini-report from my weekly tournament. I ended up going 4-1, which granted me a prize.

My decklist is the same as what sroncor1 posted, except with the following changes:
-2 mental misstep (I didn't have enough)
+2 sword of light and shadow
-4 fetch
-2 volcanic island
+6 mountain
Sideboard:
4 leyline of the void
4 shattering spree
2 pyroblast (so there's 8 blasts in the 75)
1 blood moon
1 vexing shusher (never wanted to bring this in)
1 silent arbiter (never wanted to bring this in, but I still like it against goblins/merfolk/etc.)
1 faerie macabre
1 viashino heretic (almost always wanted to bring this in)

Round 1 - Monoblack Reanimator - WIN
This appeared to be a casual deck since he had no way to answer my leyline of the void after sideboard. However, I lost the first game in the match because he was able to bring back a thraximundar that killed me in two turns.

Round 2 - UGR Tempo - LOSE
Not sure if this deck has a specific name. It's like red-splash thresh, but it doesn't have any creatures with thresh. It had lightning bolt, fire // ice, and grim lavamancer among other things.
I don't remember the games one and two very well, but it was pretty basic back and forth play.
The third game I landed a 1st-turn blood moon on the play which bought me nearly infinite time. Unfortunately, the painter's servant got hit with surgical extraction, so I had to aggro him out. I was using imperial recruiter to get more copies of itself, but he had bolts to slow me down. Eventually he drew into basics and landed a vendilion clique for beats. I got him down to 4 with a bolt in hand, but couldn't do enough before dying.
After the match my friend pointed out that I might have been able to mill him if I had just started using grindstone on it's own. The match went quite long, and I had two stones in play for a while and extra mana. It was probably a mistake on my part. In general I don't like to randomly grind so I can save mana, but when it went late-game I just forgot about it.

Round 3 - Dredge - WIN
Game one I go off before he does. Game two I mull to leyline of the void which he can't deal with. I went off rather quickly anyway.

Round 4 - WU Landstill/Stoneforge - WIN
Game one I win attacking with sword of light and shadow, which is the stone cold nuts against his stoneforge mystic + batterskull. Game two I lose because he keeps getting hate and eventually plays a batterskull. Game three I win after a long back-and-forth. I side in viashino heretic to keep the batterskull at bay. He kills it, but then I am able to use goblin welder to trade the batterskull for his pithing needle and win the aggro race with sword of light and shadow again.

Round 5 - Enchantress - WIN
Game one I win rather simply. Game two he brings in a ton of hate:
Runed Halo
Leyline of Sanctity
Solitary Confinement
Sterling Grove
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Luckily, by scouting this deck ahead of time, I realize that he has Emrakul in the sideboard, so I bring in leyline preemptively. He basically goes off before I can and actually casts the Emrakul anyway to kill me.
Game three I keep a hand with painter, grindstone, 2 leyline, some blasts, and no land. It works well, although he is able to resolve a few protective enchantments, I recruit a jaya to nuke them and then win.

After the tournament, I got the two mental missteps that I need to complete the decklist as desired. I also updated the sideboard as follows:
4 leyline of the void
2 blood moon
2 pyroblast
3 sword of light and shadow
1 siege-gang commander
1 silent arbiter
2 viashino heretic

I didn't see anyone playing belcher or storm. I don't think I need to side against them that badly because it's basically just a race anyway. Thorn of amethyst might be the best choice though.

Edit: Also, there was a blue/red painter deck at the tournament. He drew against the same Enchantress player that I would later beat. In fact, it was in watching their match that I was able to scout out the Enchantress player's hate. The painter player also lost to my friend playing GWB Rock, so he didn't place.

Rath

07-15-2011, 01:52 PM

After the tournament, I got the two mental missteps that I need to complete the decklist as desired. I also updated the sideboard as follows:
4 leyline of the void
2 blood moon
2 pyroblast
3 sword of light and shadow
1 siege-gang commander
1 silent arbiter
2 viashino heretic

Nice tournament! Always love to see a mono-R version do well. I like your new SB, the only thing I would suggest is that you try Phyrexian Metamorph as you can recruit for it and cast it to copy anything (Thrax in the reanimator match-up, Emrakul if you have to, etc). Otherwise, I always recommend shattering spree as an artifact killer, but with 2 vaishino heretic and a welder main, you should be fine.

EddieO

07-16-2011, 12:58 PM

You will find MM is more than enough against storm. Just don't be greedy and always go for first Ritual, its usually enough to stop them stone cold....

Belcher MM is pretty effective also, but same thing, don't be greedy.

Why Leyline over the crypt though? Crypt has so many synergies, plus don't have to mulligan just to get one into play to actually win...I guess it wrecks reanimator more, but MM kinda slams them too. I've been running a Crypt main deck due to all the damn elves and hive mind online, packing main deck big whores....

There are so many artifacts running around, I am thinking about putting another heretic in the SB...

Burn is my main enemy at this point.....

I've gone back to my R/B version, just for plague and perish, for elves and zoo......

Later EddieO

Malchar

07-16-2011, 04:15 PM

This deck has a pretty bad matchup against burn unless you sideboard aggressively. I currently don't commit any slots, but you could use something like Umezawa's Jitte or Dragon's Claw perhaps. Of course, they will be siding in artifact hate against you. Burn should be pretty bad right now though because of Batterskull.

I use Leyline of the Void to stop Emrakul. Usually mulling aggressively against dredge/reanimator works quite well. This deck can usually mull pretty heavily in general as well since you need so little to win. Also, you can cast the leyline using chrome mox if you paint black.

Many opponents don't expect to see leyline, so you can occasionally catch them off guard with no way to deal with it. It's much easier to bait a crypt activation and play around it. They also get double duty out of artifact hate which they side in. They can blow up the crypt or your combo, but if that's all they brought in then they can't deal with the leyline at all.

sroncor1

07-17-2011, 08:35 AM

Yeah burn is a lost cause. But you shouldn't see it that often. My transformational sideboard is strong against it, but Emrakul was stronger in that situation than Inkwell. Congrats on the success with the monored list. The Leyline is a good idea and really does solve the Emrakul problem. It does allow you a bunch of options and it can even shut down ill gotten gains.

Artifact removal is a funny thing. It is something that I always want but to be honest I don't think you need it. Yes jitte can and is a problem. It is the worst artifact to see really. I have personally chosen to fight it with the cards we have instead of bringing in artifact hate. I am still strongly in support of the transitional sideboard and with it there is not any other room. I reallythink you need three Koth someplace to fight the control decks.

Seth

EddieO

07-18-2011, 01:35 PM

While Burn might not be common in paper, online its every where. Its by far the cheapest deck you can make and going 3-1 with it is pretty common. In a daily event I've actually played against 3 burn decks in 4 rounds! It and elves are VERY popular online.....in real life, you rarely see either...

Looks like a guy made top 16, and could of made top 8 at the SCG Open....I did read a match report against a Hive Mind deck.....the guy clearly doesn't know how to play the deck very well, well at least against Hive Mind. Hive mind will often, have you naming black. The only time you should really name blue is if you expect emakrul off show and tell and you have Jaya in hand or already in play....and POSSIBLY, but rarely if you can mana screw them. However, they only need two land to go off really.....so I find myself rarely going that route. You should ALWAYS name black.....turns off slaugter pact, which is very common to kill, especially once you can pay for pact of the titan.

Later EddieO

Rath

07-25-2011, 11:52 AM

If anyone is looking to buy recruiters... I am selling my playset for cheaper then $200 each. They are NOT in English (They are simplified or southern chinese. I can send you scans if you want)

Greenpoe

08-03-2011, 07:33 PM

Why aren't people running 3x Trinisphere in SB's anymore? In a deck that can so easily have 3 mana on turn 1 (3 Chrome Mox+4 SSG), a turn 1 Trinisphere can easily come down and slow down all sorts of decks that rely on 1-drops. It's great on the play.

Koby

08-03-2011, 07:34 PM

Greenpoe

08-04-2011, 01:42 AM

Has anyone tried Lord of Shatterskull pass? I've been playing him in the Goblin Welder slot. I think he's good as a 2-of. I think he plays well to massively speed up the decks aggro clock or just block as a 6/6.

Michael Keller

08-04-2011, 09:39 AM

What are everyone's feeling on Chaos Warp? It seems like it could be relevant out of the board against certain match-ups. You could even pull tricks with City of Traitors upon playing a land. Without passing priority, tap a City and a Mountain, shuffle the City back in, and (potentially) get something relevant.

There is a lot of relevant hate that this deck faces in the second and or third games of a set, and being able to protect your investment by at the very least exchanging it for something else - possibly the same thing - could be useful.

Grymer

08-04-2011, 11:25 AM

Rath

08-04-2011, 01:37 PM

Isnt Koth just better??

Yes... he is just better.

sroncor1

08-04-2011, 03:40 PM

Yes Koth is much stronger than a Hill Giant with a pump ability. I would not change out the Welders for a beater even if it was FoD to be honest. You have to view the Welder as a utility creature that enables more lines of play and gives you an advantage versus control/counter/rock decks while blocking Goblin Lackey. That is why he is amazing. I could see switching him for Koth because in theory they serve similar roles by opening more lines of play and essentially providing more win conditions for the long game. I have found I like Welder just slightly more so 3 Koth went to the board, but I really couldn't argue with someone running them main. I think it is more dependent on meta and which direction you want to take the deck in.

@Hollywood-I've tried the card out and it is strong, I'm really just not sure what to cut. I was thinking lightning bolt since they both serve as removal of sorts and Chaos Warp actually hits more permanents. However I would hate to use it on a Noble Hearch(sp). But every other creature I would be happy with to be honest. I hate to lose Lightning Bolt bc of its versatility but Chaos warp is strong for sure. To be honest i never thought about hitting my own permenants with it, but I have not tested it that much.

Seth

Grymer

08-04-2011, 04:06 PM

Im playing 2 Koth main,, i realy like them against control decks... becus they can have problems getting koth killed :D

sroncor1

08-23-2011, 08:53 AM

So I have been playing around with Chaos Warp in the Lightning Bolt slot and I have to say the card is strong. I did lose a match to merfolk that bolt would have won but overall the utility of the card is great. I do not know if I would recomend playing them in a blind meta but I do recomend everyone at least test them out.

I have been running three Koth with Show and Tell for Inkwell as my board and I have loved it. It is very hard for stoneblad decks to deal with all our threats with Koth being huge. Obv. Batterskull is the main card that you are worried about and Chaos Warp does a great job of handling it. As great as the moon effects are I almost always side them out games 2 and 3 bc people know to fetch basics. Now if you are on the play and the do not run red, then I could see an argument for keeping them. Otherwise you really want access to blue and it is stronger than possibly color screwing them.

Seth

Malchar

08-30-2011, 01:54 PM

Innistrad Spoilers
"Mentor of the Meek"
http://mtgsalvation.com/innistrad-spoiler.html#5453
Innistrad Spoilers

My first impression is that this guy could be extremely good in our deck. Every creature is already small enough to trigger it thanks to the Imperial Recruiter engine. First off, you can search for him with a recruiter, which gives the deck a much-needed card draw engine. Secondly, casting a subsequent recruiter will trigger the draw, and whatever you search for with the recruiter will also trigger the draw. Recruiters just became super efficient card advantage.

You have to use a white splash, but people were winning with that build even before stoneforge was printed. You get to use Auriok Salvagers which is comparable to Goblin Welder (even better when you have both in play). You also get the ability to run a transformational sideboard and turn the deck into bomberman (or whatever it's called) as an alternative win condition.
You also get Stoneforge Mystic. Equipment is quite good in this deck since it has so many weenies. Also, as far as I know, living weapons (Batterskull) will trigger the mentor since they enter as 0/0's. Not to mention that Stoneforge and Salvagers are also fair game for the mentor and recruiter.

You also get all the normal white cards, like swords to plowshares and the ability to actually destroy enchantments.

Caveat: If they counter your creature, you don't get the opportunity to pay 1 and draw. That's fine. It turns every creature you cast into a must-counter or else you automatically recycle your card advantage. They're forced to trade one for one, and if they let any through, then you're automatically gaining card advantage.

Also, I know that this thread is mostly for discussion of the monored deck, but it also has way more posts than any other painter topic. Also, this card necessitates the use of imperial recruiter, which is absent in many other builds. If this ends up leading to a successful new deck, I'll make a separate thread.

Grymer

08-31-2011, 04:42 AM

sroncor1 can i see your UR build ? becus i have tryed build a list but i cant get a good result.. so i always go back to the mono red build ;S

sroncor1

09-04-2011, 09:13 PM

My old UR build is as follows:
4 Imperial Recruiters
4 Painter's servant
4 SSG
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Goblin Welder
4 REB
2 Pyroblast
4 Grindstone
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lightning Bolt
3 mental Misstep
2 Blood Moon
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Arid Mesa
2 Volcanic Island
4 Mountains

Side
4 Show and Tell
4 Intuition
4 Inkwell Leviathan
3 Koth

Overall i really enjoyed the deck and it was strong against zoo and early Jace decks. Once they adopted red the build lost strength and zoo has really fallen off the map. I don't get to play much but I would no longer play this deck in the current meta. I have switched to a white splash now and I actually took third today.

The differences from the above list are as follows:
-1 SSG
-2 Volcanic Islands
-3 Mental Missteps
-1 Lightning Bolt
+1 Plains
+4 Stoneforge Mystic
+1 Batterskull

Obviously the board changes with the keys being 3 Koth and the rest of the pyroblasts
3 Koth
2 Pyroblast
3 tormod's crypt
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 mental Misstep
1 Jitte

The deck was awesome and to be honest I like the stoneforge better as it serves the same role as the show and tell package, yet you have far fewer hands with duplicate combo pieces from different combos. The land count had to go up to stabalize the deck. I had to cut a SSG and a Lightning Bolt to make room, but so far testing has been great. My only loss was to hive mind and I had to mull each game without really getting strong hands. I think Crypts are needed as Reanimator decks are strong right now. I might want to add three cards to help out the Hive Mind match up, but that deck seems to be on the down swing. I'm not sure if that should be Enlightened Tutor, Active Volcanoes, or something else that I haven't thought of yet. Overall I say give the updated deck a chance as it is really strong and i think you again have the advantage against Merfolk as they have added a bunch of strong cards. And the deck crushes stoneblade variants. Any questions or more info, I'm happy to help.

Seth

Jelmerz77

09-05-2011, 11:58 AM

Hey Seth,

You missed a few cards I guess ... ;-)

The differences from the above list are as follows:
-1 SSG
-2 Volcanic Islands
-3 Mental Missteps
-1 Lightning Bolt
+1 Plains
+4 Stoneforge Mystic
+1 Batterskull
+2 Plateau

sroncor1

09-05-2011, 01:17 PM

Yes you are correct. There should be a dual land that produces red and white in that spot.

Seth

Jelmerz77

09-05-2011, 01:36 PM

And If we would go for a white splash that Mentor of the Meek looks really interesting

sroncor1

09-05-2011, 02:25 PM

Grymer

09-06-2011, 04:48 AM

And If we would go for a white splash that Mentor of the Meek looks really interesting

Imo id rather play Auriok Salvagers then Mentor of the Meek :)

Grymer

09-06-2011, 06:41 AM

The deck was awesome and to be honest I like the stoneforge better as it serves the same role as the show and tell package, yet you have far fewer hands with duplicate combo pieces from different combos. The land count had to go up to stabalize the deck. I had to cut a SSG and a Lightning Bolt to make room, but so far testing has been great. My only loss was to hive mind and I had to mull each game without really getting strong hands. I think Crypts are needed as Reanimator decks are strong right now. I might want to add three cards to help out the Hive Mind match up, but that deck seems to be on the down swing. I'm not sure if that should be Enlightened Tutor, Active Volcanoes, or something else that I haven't thought of yet. Overall I say give the updated deck a chance as it is really strong and i think you again have the advantage against Merfolk as they have added a bunch of strong cards. And the deck crushes stoneblade variants. Any questions or more info, I'm happy to help.

Seth

Have you thought of playing Sundial of the Infinite in bord? it stops the pacts and emrakul in the GY :)

Kim

sroncor1

09-06-2011, 09:56 AM

@Kim. You might be right that it is the beat available card. Unfortunately we would need to run 4 copies for it to be truly effective. Right now the side is very tight but I def will be testing it out. I haven't really looked at the meta in general, but is Hive Mind still putting up results. I mean even though I lost to it, the deck isn't hard to beat. I had two mulls to ok hands and he had the Fow but even still I was a turn away from winning each game. So I felt like I was in it as we have a bunch that interacts with them.

Seth

Malchar

09-06-2011, 02:21 PM

I have thought about the card. I'm not sure where it fits though. I do not think it is strong enough to maindeck. Maybe in the side for attrition wars. I'll def pick a couple up and test with them, but it might also be a win more card. I doubt you would ever want to tutor it and I'm not sure what crd it is stronger than. Worth testing for sure but I think once you try the stoneforge package you will realize enough card advantage that is of high quality.

Seth

I do see your point. It's not exactly the silver bullet we were looking for. However, I consider the card to be similar to dark confidant. Even if you don't want to actually tutor for it, just running 4x maindeck will give you a good chance of getting this draw engine. From there, you can almost be drawing twice as many cards as normal. It doesn't solve any specific problem, but it makes everything run a little smoother.

Also, it might be worthwhile to tutor for this guy first as a type of investment. If he sticks, then you have a much better chance of winning later. Even if you fail to go off next time, you can recycle most of your lost card advantage with the mentor. This seems to lead to a slower playstyle, not dissimilar from the red/blue build. You would have to remove some of the acceleration cards in order to have more consistency. Perhaps that isn't such a good idea after all considering that people are having some trouble with the hivemind deck.

sroncor1

09-06-2011, 03:08 PM

@malchar- He would be a great card advantage machine except for the fact that he requires mana so it isn't as consistent or tempo oriented as Bob. Overall I think it is worth trying, maybe in the Lightning Bolt spot. I do not recommend cutting the speed elements. Where the format is you really need the speed. In the most recent event I honestly always had cards in hands once I adopted the Stoneforge package. This change really uses your mana in different ways.

About Hive Mind to be honest that was the first time I ever played against it. I don't think the matchup is that bad. I personally just haven't tested it much. I still think the deck is sort of trash as it shouldn't beat a competent Merfolk or BUG player. I am thinking now that more aggressive mulligans are needed and I just have to figure out the best way to attack it with the tools we already have.

Seth

Jelmerz77

09-08-2011, 12:44 PM

I agree with Seth on the speed element and am going to test the Stoneforge Mystic package.

Btw I send you a message ;-)

sroncor1

09-08-2011, 01:19 PM

@jelmerz77- I got your message and figured I would post the reply here for everyone to read. I really think you need at least 6 moon effects mAindecked. This really holds true in random metas as so many people build shitty mana bases. 3 Blood Moon may actually be better than 4 Magus of he Moon. And 3 Goblin Welders really should be play in the first 60. He actually works great in the MM era, which may be counter intuitive but you can either run more one drops or less. He makes your opponent have to decide. They basically can't let him resolve or else he invalidates counters. 3 feels like the right number to me. I love Koth, but I feel like right now 3 are better in the board. He is really strong against control decks but he isn't as strong vs aggro and rock, at least compared to Stoneforge. I can't argue with the 3 Duals. It is something I have thought of but I have never made the jump, but it could very well be the proper land base. I hope the following statement does not come off as an asshole, but if you are going with the white splash I really do recommend my list. I've put a lot of time into testing and that is the best I could come up with. Hope this helps.

Seth

Grymer

09-08-2011, 01:43 PM

I tested the R/W build not 100% your liste but close too.. and i realy didnt liked it cus i had problems findein the white mana.. i vent 3/3 on a 6 round standing..
When i play the red build (i dont play with welder) then i use to go 4-2 or better every time..
i will test alot of versions of the deck.. cus im going to GP amsterdam and i think il play it there.. but i still need to test the blue splash and with welder.. :)

sorry for my english lag :/

-Kim

sroncor1

09-08-2011, 04:12 PM

I really haven't experienced the mana issues. You just have to think turns ahead an not back yourself into a corner with blood moon. Try upping the dual count maybe as wastelands aren't as popular. To be honest the blue build is more uneven with mana, at least that is what I found. What decks did you lose to?

Seth

Jelmerz77

09-08-2011, 08:35 PM

Why do you include a Jitte in the board? for a specific MU? or just as an overall utility equip against aggro?

Grymer

09-09-2011, 04:18 AM

What decks did you lose to?

hmm i lost to:

NO BUG (with hulk combo)
Red Deck Win
Reanimate

sroncor1

09-09-2011, 09:42 AM

@Grymer- Are you running Crypts in your board? That with 8 blast effects and Moon effects, modern reanimator list should not be hard to handle. NO BUG also should be fairly favorable, although I will admidt you want moon effects, blast, and the combo in that match up. Stoneforge into Batterskull does have a hard time racing protection from everything. RDW is just a rough match, sort of like burn, although Batterskull does change things there as an early batterskull can keep you alive long enough to combo off. Try to be more aggressive in your mulligans and I can discuss some hands and modes of attack of these decks if you would like. But you should be favored, the key is finding the right way to approach the matchup. That has always been the hardest part for me, but I'm glad to share it with you guys if you want.

Seth

Grymer

09-09-2011, 10:14 AM

my sidebord in the R/W build:

1 Manic Vandal
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Mental Misstep
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Blood Moon
1 Sundial of the Infinite
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Il post my Red build also (:

Creatures
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
3 Magus of the Moon
4 Painter's Servant
3 Simian Spirit Guide

Spells
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Mental Misstep
3 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast

Enchantments
2 Blood Moon

Artifacts
3 Chrome Mox
4 Grindstone
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Arid Mesa
4 City of Traitors
9 Mountain

Planeswalkers
2 Koth of the Hammer

My Sideboard from last time i played the list:
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Manic Vandal
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Firespout
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Blood Moon
3 Sundial of the Infinite
2 Trinisphere

sroncor1

09-10-2011, 07:35 AM

@glimmer-Trinisphere should be a 4 or 0. Any other number doesn't make sense as you basically have to land it first turn. Against Tendrils decks it's enough to buy a couple turns and it completely crushes Belcher, but that deck is trash. I also don't like using Enlightened Tutor to find our sideboard answers as your are opening MM as a stopgap. The reason Crypt works so well is the fact that Reanimator decks can't stop it without Fow which allows you to force through your own combo. Give these changes a chance, I think you will like what you see.

Seth

Malchar

09-10-2011, 01:51 PM

I'm thinking that laboratory maniac (Innistrad) is a decent sideboard candidate (1 of tutorable) for any deck that has blue. If the opponent has wheel of sun and moon, emrakul, the aeons torn, or even something like leyline of sanctity, you can just tutor for the maniac and mill yourself to victory.

Back to the general discussion, I'm a huge fan of leylines as sideboard tools. Leyline of Sanctity is actually great against storm, belcher, and opposing grindstone decks. Also, I personally use Leyline of the Void in my sideboard to combat reanimator, dredge, and anyone with an emrakul in their deck. As with the trinisphere argument, all that matters is getting it out turn 1. With leylines, that means that you don't have to be able to cast it normally. Compared to trinisphere, they both have to come out turn 1, except the leyline costs 0. Granted, leylines aren't quite as good as trinisphere/tormod's, but you don't lose tempo when casting them, which is important for a speed deck like ours. You can continue to build your combo at full speed.

Goblin Welder should certainly show up in the monored build. It's extremely good against any deck using artifacts, which many do post-board. I've won many games by simply welding the opponent's cards together thus wrecking their board position. Also, it's a great tutorable one-of for situations where you have a recruiter and painter but your grindstone is in the yard, or you just want some insurance. Another great play is having painter, grindstone, and welder in play, and then if you grind, and they kill the painter in response, you can weld the grindstone into the dead painter with the grindstone ability still on the stack and proceed to win anyway.

At the very least, it's a pretty good reusable artifact "destruction" tool against decks with multiple artifacts.

Jelmerz77

09-11-2011, 06:44 PM

sroncor1

09-11-2011, 08:15 PM

I think what he was getting at were Eldrazi in the library. Once it hits play all bets are off. I'm not sold on adding more white cards or nonred to the deck. You have to remember the deck is at it's heart a monored deck. The first game with an unknown opponent you should always be looking for first turn moon effect, the combo, or Painter with a few removal pieces.

Seth

Malchar

09-11-2011, 08:48 PM

Malchar,

That Laboratory Maniac is a funny gimmick at best...
It is faster to Resolve a Painter and nuke Wheels and Leylines with Pyro's and REBs.
And if Emrakul hits the board we have to tutor the Maniac, cast the Maniac, activate our combo and draw a card. that means 10 mana at least... Assuming that you have the combo on the table. You would have to do this all in 1 turn because ontherwise Annihilator 6 is going to redesign your board... Looks hardly unlikely to get 10 mana.

In general, I agree that blasts are much better at dealing with wheel of sun and moon, but blasts aren't tutorable. 1x sideboard slot isn't too costly when it potentially replaces 4x leyline of the void. You can cast laboratory maniac using painter + chrome mox, and you'll only need to cast the maniac if you already have a painter in play anyway. Overall, I'm not certain that it's always worth the risk of potentially losing because they had removal, but in certain metas it might be, namely against decks like enchantress with limited removal.

Jelmerz77

09-12-2011, 05:34 AM

In general, I agree that blasts are much better at dealing with wheel of sun and moon, but blasts aren't tutorable. 1x sideboard slot isn't too costly when it potentially replaces 4x leyline of the void. You can cast laboratory maniac using painter + chrome mox, and you'll only need to cast the maniac if you already have a painter in play anyway. Overall, I'm not certain that it's always worth the risk of potentially losing because they had removal, but in certain metas it might be, namely against decks like enchantress with limited removal.

It is true that blasts aren't tutorable but we are running 6 Blasts. The chance that we draw a blast is still greater then that we draw a tutor or its singleton target (4+1).
Also doesn't Maniac shut down dredge, which is one of the reasons that you need GY hate. Unless dredge and reanimator and such are removed from the face of the earth I will probably always dedicate 3 to 4 slots in the board to GY hate (Leyline/ Relic or Crypt)

Jelmer

sroncor1

09-12-2011, 04:13 PM

I guess I never ran Leylines bc you really can't play them If you draw them and it's a bad strategy to just mulligan to them. They are worth testing, but right now I really like my sideboard except I would love to get Jaya Ballard/Spinal Villian in there someplace. In the end you have to pick a matchup where you are just going to be a dog to it. For me I have choosen combo. That isn't to say you can't win but it is tough, but with that you are strong against Merfolk, StoneblAde, Bant, Midrange decks, NO decks. I think that is a good trade off.

Seth

Grymer

09-13-2011, 04:17 AM

I play Jaya Ballard main and she is just sick.. if you get painter down.. you just have an answer for every thing.. and she is pretty good game 1 against random chalice's and stuff like that..

DrewliusMaximus

09-19-2011, 09:03 PM

It's been a while, but after too many consecutive weekends of non-mtg-related activity, I was able to take Imperial Painter to several local tourneys in Houston recently. When I first started playing again, I added Metamorph to my MD, which was at the time still a mono-red build with 4 Missteps. I loved the Metamorph in the main (for reasons I'll elaborate on) but of course self-induced damage was a concern with 5 Phyrexian mana requirements and 4 Tombs in the deck. So, I added a small blue splash by including a few Lotus Petals and a dual land just to prevent some of the Phyrexian mana damage. A couple of weekends later, a set of Petals had replaced Spirit Guides completely and I arrived at the list below, which has performed very well in the last two tournaments.

Now, I have historically been a purist with this deck, trying to effectively play out the original Imperial Painter strategy using only mono-red builds that tried to maximize manabase stability (as much as possible for a “Stompy" variant) and loved playing under Moon effects. So fittingly, my blue splash is more subtle than it could be, but I want to keep the potential early-Moon play, be able to operate under it, and include the Jaya option. Here’s the list that I settled on in the last three weeks:

Mana – 25
4 Tomb
3 City
4 Fetch
2 Volcanic Island
8 Mountain
4 Lotus Petal

Moon Plan – 4
2 Blood Moon
2 Magus

Painter Plan – 11
4 Servant
4 Blast
2 Grindstone
1 Jaya

Engine Cards – 9
4 Recruiter
4 Top
1 Trinket Mage

Welder Plan – 3
2 Welder
1 Metamorph

General Utility – 8
4 Misstep
2 Magma Jet
2 Spellskite

SB – 15
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Revoker
3 Blast
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Faerie Macabre

As I mentioned before, Metamorph was something I wanted to incorporate into the MD a little while ago, initially as a maindecked answer for Progenitus and Emrakul. But after testing with it, I realized how good Metamorph is in general and how amazing it is specifically in this deck. The main reason I like it so much here is that it’s a great Recruiter target when you want to remain flexible and reactive to the opponent. Recruiting Metamorph does not commit you to any strategy and you can always play Metamorph afterwards naming Recruiter.

Once Metamorph started looking like a new mainstay in the deck, two things happened: I started worrying about the Phyriexian mana damage and I wanted to abuse Metamorph more. My immediate reaction to the Phyrexian mana was Lotus Petal and my immediate reaction to Metamorph was Goblin Welder, both of which work well with each other. So I started testing and concluded pretty quickly that I liked the addition of the Welder plan with Metamorph and Petals. After that, I discovered Spellskite as a great complement to the Welder plan (and the whole deck really), which pushed my Moon count down and made me comfortable playing a Trinket Mage.

Since the resulting list can still play the oh-so-satisfying turn-1 or turn-2 Moon effect, and has only one truly blue card that can still be played with Petals after an early Moon, and can still hate the crap out of blue, I’m ok with it.

And here are some of the new plays that have been helpful:

1. Recruit Metamorph, then play it naming Recruiter and tutor for Welder. One Recruiter = two-card advantage and assembly of the Welder/Metamorph combo…nice;
2. Use active Welder/Metamorph with Recruiter out to tutor up a bunch of creatures;
3. Use active Welder and Top (especially with one in the yard and one in play or 2 Welders) to draw extra cards EOT;
4. Use active Welder and Spellskite (especially with one in the yard and one in play or 2 Welders) to absorb removal spells without losing any board position;
5. Play a turn-1 Spellskite and turn-2 Magus (insured Magus-lock);
6. Recruit Trinket Mage and tutor for Grindstone. Now there are 7 ways to find a Grindstone and there are less dead opening hands with too many minor combo pieces…I’ll sacrifice the potential speed for that.

On top of those, there are some great post-board plays like:

1. Recur Ensnaring Bridges with Welder;
2. Protect Ensnaring Bridges with Spellskite;
3. Trinket tutor for Crypt and Engineered Explosives;
4. Recur Crypt with Welder;
5. Somewhat consistently play Engineered Explosives for more than one.

I think I’m sold on this direction for the deck, and even if Misstep gets the axe tomorrow (or whenever), I’d still keep the subtle splash even with additional Moon effects, which would probably come in if MM is banned.

I like the idea of the white splash being discussed too because of the obvious strength of SFM, but I’d also encourage some testing with some of these new Phyrexian/blue toys and Welder. They’re damn good together.

sroncor1

09-19-2011, 09:31 PM

@ Drew- I am def behind you abou Metamorph. I haven't had he balls to force it into the maindeck yet as I don't have the heart to cut down Moon effects. But I love it in the board and it does interact so favorably in he deck. I think I brought it in for most games 2 and 3 so I guess I should really push it into he main. Lotus Petal over Chrome Mox is def an interesting idea and one I will at least test if not steal from you. I'm still high on 3 SSG, but my meta has many fast combo decks so I really need the speed. Your build is even more built for he long game which I like. I personally have constructed my sideboard to do the same. Not sure about your meta but Im still a huge fan of 3 Koth in the 75 someplace. He is such a kick in the dick for blue decks which basically make up the other half of the decks I play against. Either way it great to have you posting again. I did love the blue splash but my meta has shifted enough that SFM was needed to help strengthen the Merfolk and Junk matchups. And there is a bunch of StoneblAde decks around and they serve as a great stall in those matchups while you assemble the combo.

Seth

Jelmerz77

09-20-2011, 09:46 AM

And now Mental Misstep is banned, so we seem to have free slots and a shifting Meta again.
The Blue Splash seems nice though.

GoblinZ

09-20-2011, 10:05 AM

And now Mental Misstep is banned, so we seem to have free slots and a shifting Meta again.
The Blue Splash seems nice though.

I fear that zoo and ANT would come back...

wolfstorm

09-20-2011, 10:09 AM

I fear that zoo and ANT would come back...

Zoo never left..

sroncor1

09-20-2011, 01:26 PM

Zoo is a really bad choice even without MM. Batterskull is real strong against it and it is still powerless against NO and Show and Tell decks. I really wouldn't worry about it much. Really it makes about as much sense as running burn especially if NO Bant makes a comeback which would not surprise me. Unfortunately the format has again sped up and I fully expect Reanimator to pick back up again. The deck was good before and it can use daze and daze itself is notsuper against the deck.

Right now I'm not sure what I would replace the MM with in he board. Rule of Law is something I am looking into now as I like it more than Trinisphere but it is week to Nature's Claim. However it is far strong against Ant style decks.

Seth

DrewliusMaximus

09-20-2011, 11:47 PM

Am I the only one who thinks WotC does an ok job managing the format? I guess that's for another thread. Anyways, I'm cool with a little more combo, Zoo, Goblins, etc.

I have been really happy with a fully-committed Ensnaring Bridge plan out of the board against a bunch of decks, which Spellskite should reinforce nicely against Zoo and Goblins.

Against combo, I'm accepting that the coin flip is going to be the most important factor again, and I may not do anything out of the ordinary in the board. My MD is going to get another Moon effect and two more Blasts and a Revoker, and I have actually become satisfied with Revoker as one of the SB haters too.

Hopefully I'll be able to find out in the next few weeks if the Welder-Metamorph plan can still work and if the subtle blue splash is still justified. I like the white splash for SFM too (and I might even put one white dual in my list for a SB Canonist) but I love the fact that you get a few blue toys and only have one real blue mana requirement.

sroncor1

09-22-2011, 08:09 PM

@Drew- Cannonist might be the best option in a white splash. I do like where you have taken the deck which is sort of in the opposite direction of where I have been trending. I have tried to strip the deck down and simplify it and your deck is full of cool tricks. Def must be a blast to PLAY. I guess I,m still not totally comfortable without a strong creature beat down plan right now. And yes, with the exception of not banning Vengvine WOTC has done a fine job with the format.

Seth

DrewliusMaximus

09-23-2011, 10:52 PM

Seth, I think this archetype can go in several legitimate directions.

Until recently, I have mostly believed that one of the major benefits Imperial Painter offers is the ability to play out all three strategies - aggro, combo, and control. My most recent lists sacrificed aggro completely though to focus more on control and advantage-combo's only because a few cards from New Phyrexia dragged me in that direction and toward a color-splash against my will. Misstep was the gateway drug, then I escalated to Metamorph, Goblin Welder, and finally, Spellskite and Trinket Mage.

While I might be too hesitant to combine the Moon plan with too many color requirements, the white splash, which has always been interesting, looks especially awesome with Mystic. If you're more willing to splash, it seems like the best way to strengthen the aggro plan. I can even imagine only one or two Mystics (because you can Recruit them), a Spellskite or two, and a MD Cannonist. You'd get a combo-killer in the main and I'll bet Cannonist with Spellskite and Painter-powered Blasts could make your guys pretty removal-proof.

For now I'm sticking with my current splash because there's only one real blue color requirement, and Welder gives me an incentive to play Lotus Petals which add color insurance. And now that MM is gone, I've added a third Moon (fifth Moon effect), Blast five and six, and the third Magma Jet, so the red count is back up. I also switched out the second MD Spellskite for one MD Revoker in preparation for combo.

...but we'll see, now that I splashed, it may be hard to stop.

sroncor1

10-02-2011, 10:57 PM

Drew I def. agree that the deck can go in many directions and I really feel that is one of its strengths to be sure. I'm currently working on tweaking the deck a bit in the post MM meta, but I think my deck will be mostly the same. I have really like Lotus Petal in the deck to be sure. Cannonist is also testing well, especially with the Petal giving me many ways to drop it first turn.

If Merfolk and Goblins spike, then Batterskull just becomes that much stronger. I'm hoping to get to an event soon and test out a few of my ideas. I need the duals as I traded a bunch of my extras for a Black Lotus recently, so I guess I'll have to continue to roll of the MD players with Painter and get the looks of WTF. Good Times.

Seth

sroncor1

10-07-2011, 12:15 PM

I'll be taking this deck to an event this Sunday. The only changes I have made are adding 4 Cannonist in place of MM. I'll try to take some solid notes so that I can post something more than a half assed summary of the event.

I have not totally moved over to the Lotus Petal, but I do really like it, possibly reworking the mana base to fit 4 with an extra land. However I haven't tested enough to really feel comfortable with it right now, but the idea has lots of promise I have to say. The Cannonist have been solid in the combo matchup if for no other reason than you already have a bunch of deck crads there and they allow for some minor interaction and disruption which is often times all you need as we are essentially half a turn slower than Tendrils( although Batterskull can mess with the math here) and half a turn faster than high tide. So we sit in the middle and it is a nice place to be since we can also easily win through most combo hate.

I am a little unsure where the meta will be going, and if blue based control decks are even viable. However I do think a 3/3 split of Moon effects is currently the best for the maindeck. I will have more to follow, and if anyone is going to be in the DC/Baltimore area over the next three weekedns I will be playing in an event each weekend so hit me up and I'm more than happy to bullshit about the deck.

Seth

DrewliusMaximus

10-09-2011, 10:11 PM

How did it go Seth?

I have stayed with UR post-MM and had good luck the last two weeks (both top 4's). This weekend I took my friend Chris' advice (Metalwalker on the Source) and added a few more blue mana sources and Spell Pierce to the Board. It'll take some time to tell for sure, but I think I like the Pierces much better than other anti-combo cards like Trinisphere etc.

Also, if you play Petals, I highly suggest the Welder plan.

sroncor1

10-11-2011, 01:06 PM

@Drew- The event didn't go as planned as it was the first time in quite a while that I did not money. On the flip side it was a valuable experience with the deck and I have some great results and ideas moving forward. I ran with my list deck list and the sideboard changes mentioned earlier. i did not add the Lotus Petal bc I had not tested them enough and they really do change your thought process behing mulliganing.

Semi detailed report:
1. Merfolk: Game one a Batterskull caused to many problems for him, and I was able to beat face even with attive jitte on his side. The Phantasmal Image( or whatever the fuck it is called) is a super strong card for them as my version of the deck has many juicy targets for it. So you have to be careful as more and more lists are running main deck Jitte and he can easily tutor up a lord along with adding more lords if needed. It really is the best card in the deck, at least against us. Game two I had to mull and never really recovered. I had plenty of lands and eventually died with two Chrome Mox in my hand. I never wanted to pitch a card in hand to them and this was a theme I experineced many times throughout the day. Game three was heartbreaker as i lost it making a huge misplay. I activated the Weilder at the wrong time and allowed my opponent to get an active Jitte. I alsmost pulled it out, but was one turn from doing so. Again i had empty Moxes. The misplay hurt as the deck gave me the tools to win. It is really funny as this was the first event in nearly 6 months wehn I had gotten more than 3 hrs sleep before hand as I didnt't have to work at the hospital and I made a miscalculation. Go figure.

2. WW- Initally I thought this would be a cake walk, but multiple STP and disenchants turned this into a close one. By using Welder tricks to constantly change the color of all cards I was able to keep him from using his various Swords and by time for the combo. Its funny but I could see this deck giving midrange a hard time but being a complete dog to traditional combo. It also should have no problem beating up on BUG lists as pound for pound its greatures are just better. Mirren Crusader with equipment can be a real kick in the dick. I would eventually mill him twice for the win, using Stoneforge into Batterskull to stabalize the board and buy time.

3. Goblins- I sat down thinking he was playing a four color Dreadnought list and proceded to bash goblins bc it is currently a bad deck and can not interact in a meaningful way against combo. First turn mountain vial and I was thinking I put my mouth in my foot. Especially since I kept a hand with two moon effects. I played land go for my first three turns while he did what goblins does and puked out a bunch of dudes. On his fourth turn he tapped out and took me to two life. i untapped layed a CoT and comboed off with REB back up. This was the second time a judge was called as he initiallt didnt believe my that the combo worked, then he tried to complain atht I played it too fast and didnt give him a chance to respond. All I said was that everything he had was tapped out and as already mentioned Goblins can't interact with combo. Game two saw me drop first turn Stoneforge into second turn Batterskull and third turn Jitte. He tried to port my during my upkeep to keep my off white and I stated i would tap in response and he again called for a judge. ( As a aside I feel as if I'm a fairly laid back player, but it really bothers me when people don't understand the interaction of the cards they are playing. I understand not knowing all interactions, but come on if you have Rishidian Port know how to use the fucking card.) He then drew a card and tried to add counters to his vial. I allowed it since, as he claimed it would not have changed anything and he used it to drop a Ringleader, can't know if he lied but again if you are going to complain about the rules, try and handle your own triggers. It didn't matter though as the Jitte took out his relevant guys and I milled him the next turn. He mumbled something about Goblin Tinker and I just shrugged as he just picked up his all foil deck.

4- can't remember details, but I know Moons wrecked him both games. Beat down with bad creatures finishged the deal.

5- Hivemind- Playing for cut I lost two games in which I was never really in. I had to mulligan multiple times and often times had to many Moxes in hand. If they sport Eldrazi I really do not think this is winnable. I really felt blown out the entire game.

About the event- Over all I no longer want Chrome Mox in the deck. I just don't like it. Currently we are a dog to Hivemind and I think changing that will be too difficult. Luckily it is a terrible deck in a bigger event so I would not worry about it. Smaller events may cause problems as I know one player in the area always plays it and can just steamroll bad decks. the tournament was light on FoW which is bad for us and good for it. I have tried to combat it, but so far it requires too many sideboard slots to really worry. I would just try and win and take the extra time to eat and get ready for the next round.

Moving forward i am pulling the Chrome Mox and a SSG for 4 Lotus Petal. I already run 19 lands so the mana should be solid and my ability to land a first turn moon actually slightly increases. It also makes Stoneforge more likely. I have also decided to move a Koth maindeck and pull a Welder. The Welder is awesome but without MM, he is not as vital and is less likely to work as bait. Still a great card, but I really want 3 Koths in the 75 so something had to go. I am taking your advice Drew and exploring adding a strong blue component to the board. I know 3 color really sucks, but really we are monored with splashed when needed. I haven't worked out the details just yet but 4 Spell Pierce and 4 Mindbreak Trap will most likely be there. I will also toy around with Spell Pierce. The blue is a sideboard splash so as to make the maindeck consistent. i would still keep the Jitte, 2 Koth, and 3 Tormod's Crypt in there as they are really strong. Straight up Show and Tell decks are tough to really beat with this configuration but light counter magic, Batterskull, and Koth allow decent pressure with slight disruption. Elves is still beatable with the combo as 1 Eldrazi can be easily blown away with Crypt. another avenue is Leyline of the Void. i am however really hesitant to use hate that needs to be mulliganed to especially since we do not run cantrips, so you may be stuck with some very clunky hands.

I am playing again this weeken in prepartion for the SCG Baltimore. I will post my final updated list before then. And sorry for a few condescending remarks earlier in the post, but bad players trying to exploit rules issues to win when they do not know their own cards bothers me, especially when I am about the frinedlist player there is as I could care less if I get the prizes as I already have all the cards for basically every deck. Any questions, I would be happy to answer.

Seth

Malchar

10-11-2011, 02:37 PM

Did you bring in tormod's crypt/faerie macabre against the hivemind deck in case of Eldrazi? I always do, and it feels very strange, but so far I've been pretty lucky with it working out.

I devote about 5 sideboard slots to graveyard/eldrazi hate. I guess it depends on the meta, because people actually play dredge and reanimator in addition to all the decks with random eldrazi, so for me it's almost worth it to run grave hate in the maindeck.

sroncor1

10-11-2011, 03:27 PM

I brought them in in the matchup, but to be honest I never felt in it there. Now I fully admit I may be playing it wrong, but with a god hand of Grindstone, Painter and Crypt yes you can win that. Along with Welder you should actually really be able to put pressure on them. But knowing they run Show and Tell main along with 8 counters I felt outgunned. It is winnable, but they are favored, and you have to hope to not mulligan. I am hoping the blue changes work to alleviate this. 3 pieces of grave hate is needed at a min. Overall though I have to say this and belcher are the worst match ups for us. And I can live with that. But I am open to suggestion of cards I missed however I need those cards to also allow me to fight faster combo decks as that is the other tough matchup. With the Koth's and Crypts you really should be strong vs blue control decks and reanimator, with positive against BUG, Merfolk, and Goblins. Right now I like where we sit as Hivemind should not be a problem at larger events.

Seth

Seth

Malchar

10-17-2011, 06:09 PM

Has anyone considered using Mox Diamond instead of Chrome Mox or Lotus Petal? I think I'll try it, but I'll probably have to add land or something. I'm actually only running 18 land currently.

I've been using the monored build, but it seems like splashing for either Trinket Mage or Stoneforge Mystic makes a lot of sense now. With enemy-color fetch and Mox Diamond/Lotus Petal, there's really no disadvantage to splashing.

Grymer

10-18-2011, 09:16 AM

the problem i had by splashing for another color was i could stall under bloodmoon.. and you will be an easyer taget for wastelock(if you dont got a blood moon down ofc).

Grymer

10-19-2011, 05:38 AM

I hope some of you guys can help me with my build befor GP Amsterdam
i play this list yesterday to an 50+ player legacy event 6 rundes standin, top8 split and ended 4-1-1 on 9. place(epic fail lolz)

My list:

Creatures
1 Goblin Welder
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
2 Magus of the Moon
4 Painter's Servant
3 Simian Spirit Guide

Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast

Enchantments
4 Blood Moon

Artifacts
3 Chrome Mox
4 Grindstone
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Great Furnace
5 Mountain
2 Wooded Foothills

Planeswalkers
2 Koth of the Hammer

Sideboard (17 cards)
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Manic Vandal
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Pyroblast
2 Pyroclasm
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Nihil Spellbomb
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Tormod's Crypt

I had some problems with deed.. so i would like to get space for Phyrexian Revoker in the 75 cards or something els that can handle deed :)
and i dont realy know if 2 koth main is great.. so i would like to get some space for them in the sidebord..

so i realy hope you can help me with the list.. or somekinda new techs :)

Kim-

GoblinZ

10-19-2011, 08:26 AM

I run a similar build as yours, I have 3 magus and 3 blood moon, for sometimes I think I really need a beater...

I have not tested Koth yet, for I only run 17 lands...

Since decks with SCM are popular now, maybe 7-8 blasts in the main deck is okay

here is my list

2 figure of destiny
1 Jaya Ballard
4 Imperial recruiter
3 magus
4 painter
4 SSG

3 lightning bolt
2 magma jet
7 blast
3 blood moon

3 mox
4 grindstone
3 top

8 sol land
1 scalding tarn
1 wooded hill
1 bloodstained mire
6 mountain

Grymer

10-19-2011, 08:58 AM

imo koth is realy the bomb against control decks... they realy have trouble removing him.. :)

i use to run the same 3 split with blood moon and magus mainbord.. but i changed to 4 moons insted cus with all that dismember around.. i just think its better to play safe then sorry :)

i would never go down to 17 lands with this deck.. meaby 18 but not 17 thats just seems to low imo for this deck :)

btw how good is magma jet.. i havent testet befor.. i just think it looks too cute to be good :/

do you guys think, i can cut a land for a P. revoker mainbord?

..again sorry for my bad english lolz

kim-

GoblinZ

10-19-2011, 09:26 AM

I used to run 18 lands, but I found I always drawed lands when I did not want them...so I cut one mountain...

Malchar

10-19-2011, 12:00 PM

@Grymer
I used a very similar list to great effect. Here are some of the differences:
I use 18 land, 3 chrome mox, 4 spirit guide
I didn't use great furnace, but it's a great idea. If pernicious deed is a problem, you could try only 2 or 3 furnaces.
I cut sensei's divining top and koth, and I used 3 goblin welder plus viashino heretic in the maindeck (great against batterskull). I also use the full 8 blasts in the main.
Sideboard I used 4 tormod's crypt/leyline, 3 sword of light and shadow (rather than pyroclasm I guess), 2 moons (same as you), and siege-gang commander, and silent arbiter for my tutor board. I currently use 4x pyrostatic pillar as well, but that is a meta choice.

DrewliusMaximus

10-19-2011, 11:29 PM

I highly recommend a Metamorph with some Welders in the MD and Ensnaring Bridges in the board.

Metamorph + Welders provide a MD answer to Eldrazi/Progenitus/Batterskull/Jitte as well as the potential to take over the late game with recurring Metamorphs naming Recruiter.

Bridges have saved my ass many times, especially in some of the worst matchups. Welders reinforce the Bridge plan, and being able to shut down the combat phase is really good while you assemble the combo (particularly against Eldrazi when you have to get three pieces to win - Grindstone, Servant and GY Removal).

I've top 4'd the last few weeks with a UR list that utilizes the above and seems to be more consistent and flexible than the builds I've played in the past.

Malchar

10-20-2011, 01:23 AM

I've been using silent arbiter in place of ensnaring bridge since it's tutorable by imperial recruiter. If I need more solutions against aggro, I'll add bridge, but I like to keep the arbiter as well to maximize odds to finding an answer when needed.

Also, I will definitely be adding phyrexian metamorph. It sounds great.

Philipp2293

10-20-2011, 03:52 AM

Drew, could you share that list? Thanks!

Dark Zero

10-20-2011, 05:22 AM

Drew already shared his list a page back but here it is again:

Mana – 25
4 Tomb
3 City
4 Fetch
2 Volcanic Island
8 Mountain
4 Lotus Petal

Moon Plan – 4
2 Blood Moon
2 Magus

Painter Plan – 11
4 Servant
4 Blast
2 Grindstone
1 Jaya

Engine Cards – 9
4 Recruiter
4 Top
1 Trinket Mage

Welder Plan – 3
2 Welder
1 Metamorph

General Utility – 8
4 Misstep
2 Magma Jet
2 Spellskite

SB – 15
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Revoker
3 Blast
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Faerie Macabre

Take out those Missteps for another moon effect, 2 more blast and a revoker. That should be Drew's most recent list.

After a little break from magic I will be back in action soon and for that I'm already tinkering around with most of your ideas and some of my own. I let you know about my list and results in near time.
I started with a list pretty close to those from Malchar and Grymer. One last thing: Until now, I'm not sold on a splash at all but I will definately give it a try (especially a list with a little white splash to concentrate more on the aggro-route).

DrewliusMaximus

10-20-2011, 12:24 PM

My current list is a bit different now:

Mana – 26
4 Tomb
4 City
7 Fetch
3 Volcanic Island
4 Mountain
4 Lotus Petal

Moon Plan – 5
3 Blood Moon
2 Magus

Painter Plan – 15
4 Servant
7 Blast
3 Grindstone
1 Jaya

Engine Cards – 9
4 Recruiter
4 Top
1 Trinket Mage

Welder Plan – 3
2 Welder
1 Metamorph

General Utility – 2
1 Spellskite
1 Revoker

SB – 15
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Spell Pierce
2 Revoker
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Spellskite

It's true that I'm a bit more vulnerable to Wasteland with the blue splash but it's still pretty easy to get basics and/or turn off all non-basics with the Moon plan. Also, there is only one true blue mana requirement in the MD and I have not had a dead Trinket Mage in hand significantly affect a game yet.

I prefer the Bridges in the board to a true aggro plan in this deck because Bridges beat opposing SFM/Batterskull strategies as well as other beatdown decks that cause problems for Imperial Painter.

Malchar

10-20-2011, 05:25 PM

It looks like the blue splash with sensei's divining top and trinket mage caters to a slower, more consistent build. You can get more card advantage and card selection this way.

My monored build has less land, and more fast mana effects such as mox and simian spirit guide. You also get to run more blasts and moons maindeck. You have less consistency, but it's more explosive. It feels a lot like dragon stompy where you basically play your hand and then you're all-in. This build works great with equipment because you can maximize the value of each recruiter, painter, magus, and spirit guide. You can frequently just win as an aggro deck while your opponent is scrambling to try and stop the "combo" portion.

I think that the white splash is my preferred evolution from monored namely because you get stoneforge mystic/batterskull to complement the existing equipment strategy. You also pick up swords to plowshares to round out the matchup against aggro. White also offers a great sideboard against opposing combo decks with cards such as ethersworn canonist and devout witness.

I haven't played against hive mind, but what kind of stuff would you want to sideboard against it?

DrewliusMaximus

10-22-2011, 12:31 AM

It's true that there is some explosiveness lost by going from X SSG's and X Moxes to 4 Lotus Petals, but it's still fast and all the mana is unconditional (no Chrome Mox requirements). And Petals can unleash earlier Welder shenanigans. Also, I don't think that many mono-red versions run many more than 5 Moon effects and 7 Blasts. I actually play most of the same cards with the blue splash that I would with mono-red.

In considering the next "evolution" of the deck, we should probably look at results to make some decisions. Most of the Painter placements on TC Decks are Intuition/Welder-based versions, but of the Imperial Painter builds, none since the end of 2010 used equipment. I think these results highlight the problem with that strategy....you already have card disadvantage problems and now you're screwed if you have an equipment but nothing to attach it to.

Equipment can maximize the value of our creatures on the board, but if the opponent has the card advantage and the ability to interact, we realize no real value.

Now Batterskull is a slightly different story, and splashing white for SFM certainly seems like the best way to abuse that and every other equipment. However, as long as we're trying to resolve turn 1 and 2 Moon effects and then operate under them, I'm going to be very wary of too many color requirements aside from red.

But we can maximize the value of our creatures in other ways too. By including a single Trinket Mage, Imperial Recruiter's value increases because it can now indirectly tutor for Grindstone (as well as Top, Crypt, or EE).

I don't know how the blue splash is going to perform over the long-term, but I'm only going to keep it if it wins more games for me.

Philipp2293

10-23-2011, 03:38 AM

So, it seems Grymer is currently 10-0 at GP Amsterdam without byes with Painter, and I assume it's Imperial Painter. Would love to see it top 8 :)

Dark Zero

10-23-2011, 07:42 AM

Go Kim!

Would also love to see you top 8.
Show them how unbelievable our all 'child' is. ;D

Esper3k

10-23-2011, 09:46 AM

Per the coverage, he is indeed playing Imperial Painter!

GoblinZ

10-23-2011, 11:07 AM

Day one undefeated with Imperial Painter...it is really awesome

Jelmerz77

10-23-2011, 02:23 PM

I just came back from day 2.
I saw Kim play T8 where he lost to storm.
Game 2 he had to mulligan to 4.

But he had a really nice run.

Malchar

10-23-2011, 07:17 PM

It looks like this deck is on track to earn back it's "deck to beat" status since mental misstep has come and gone. I think I'll be sticking to the monored build for the time-being in light of the results of GP Amsterdam. The combination of maindeck moon and red blast is extremely effective against a majority of opposing decks, although it may be meta-dependent.

The GP decklist is available here: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpams11/welcome#0

BWM

10-24-2011, 05:51 AM

How does this deck answer an Emrakul? For example, from opposing decks playing Show&TellDrazi?

Esper3k

10-24-2011, 08:54 AM

Typically, I think you just lose G1 or just beatdown?

Post board, you can bring in graveyard hate to exile Eldrazi with their graveyard trigger on the stack.

Phelix

10-24-2011, 09:43 AM

How does this deck answer an Emrakul? For example, from opposing decks playing Show&TellDrazi?

Rebs, or win first. Sometimes them play SnT lets you put a vital piece into play.

But it isnt a great matchup

Esper3k

10-24-2011, 11:03 AM

Rebs, or win first. Sometimes them play SnT lets you put a vital piece into play.

But it isnt a great matchup

I believe he's referring to how you can't mill out a deck that's running multiple Emrakuls...

Malchar

10-24-2011, 11:46 AM

You only need one tormod's crypt from the sideboard to wipe out all the eldrazi in their graveyard after grindstone is finished resolving.

Game one, you have to win with beatdown. Of course, if you can actually stick a painter's servant, it's pretty hard to lose because of the 5 to 8 red blasts which become vindicates/counterspells. Servant plus jaya ballard, task mage can completely lockdown your opponent as well, and both pieces are tutorable by recruiter. I typically find myself winning about a third of my games due to aggro/jaya. In those cases, topdecking a grindstone just speeds up an inevitable victory.

Grymer

10-25-2011, 03:36 AM

gg...
back from Amsterdam :)
il post the machups i played against later :)

-Kim Grymer

GoblinZ

10-25-2011, 03:47 AM

Congratulations! I am looking foward to your report

Grymer

10-25-2011, 04:33 AM

well here goes :)

the list:
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7050&iddeck=51147

Trial:
Mono black 2-0
RDW 2-1
Bantblade 2-0
Canadian 2-1
Punishing Maverick (big zoo) 1-2 (Fabian Gorzgen that also made it to top 8 at the gp)

total: 4-1

Day 1:

Reanimator 2-0
Maverick 2-0
UW stoneblade 2-1
Merfolk 2-0
Canadien RUG 2-1
ANT UB 2-1
Esperstoneblade 2-1
ANT with past in flames 2-1
Bantblade 2-1

total: 9-0

Day 2:

Maverick 2-0
Bantblade 1-2
BUG 2-0
Team America 2-0
Next Level Threshold 2-1
Punishing Maverick (Big Zoo) (draw for top 8)
Bantblade or Esperblade draw (draw for top 8)

total: 4-1-2

Top 8:

ANT with Past in flames 0-2

My overall gp amsterdam: 17-2-2

you are welcome to ask questions about by list and the mach ups i played against :)

Jelmerz77

10-25-2011, 04:57 AM

Congrats about the finish.

Is there anything you wanted to change about the main deck? and if so what?

And could you go into your Sideboard choices and where did you use them?
(or expected them to use)

Anyway was nice to talk to you in real life :-)

Grymer

10-25-2011, 05:24 AM

Is there anything you wanted to change about the main deck? and if so what?

as it is now... i realy liked the deck.. 7 blood moons main was realy the bomb in this GP :D
but i dont know if i would cut one bolt for the 7 blast main :)

And could you go into your Sideboard choices and where did you use them?
(or expected them to use)

my sidebord:
2 Koth of the Hammer (against the deed decks)

1 Manic Vandal (against stoneforge decks. i like manic vandal alot more then Viashino Heretic becus your opponent got like 2 turnes to finde an answer to Viashino Heretic and thats pretty bad :/ )

1 Nihil Spellbomb (3 GY hate to dodge Cabal Therapy)

1 Phyrexian Metamorph (against online progenitus or emrakul)

1 Pyroblast (against the blue decks)

2 Pyroclasm (against aggro)

1 Red Elemental Blast (against blue decks)

4 Thorn of Amethyst (i didnt want to lose to combo so i needed 4 slots in the bord.. i think its alot better then Tsphere cus you can make it turn 1 realy, realy easy..)

2 Tormod's Crypt (against GY decks and emrakul)

and nice to meet you too :)

Gocho

10-25-2011, 09:37 AM

Congratulations Kim, you make me think about pay 500-600€ for 4 Imperial Painters xD

Esper3k

10-25-2011, 09:49 AM

Hah yeah, I appreciate you making the value of the one Imperial Recruiter I have go up! :)

DrewliusMaximus

10-25-2011, 02:38 PM

Best performance yet with Imperial Painter!

I really like the Thorns. Like you said, easier to get out turn 1 then Trini, and seems more useful against High Tide and Enchantress maybe?

Have you tested a Spellskite in there? I found him to be headache for many decks, especially with Welder.

Congrats Kim! Great job providing more proof that the deck is good in the hands of skilled player.

Admiral_Arzar

10-25-2011, 02:47 PM

I really like the Thorns. Like you said, easier to get out turn 1 then Trini, and seems more useful against High Tide and Enchantress maybe?

I think Trinisphere is stronger against High Tide as it hinders your setup more, but Thorn is better against faster storm combo as it's easier to resolve T1. They're both a headache for Enchantress, not sure which is better though.

Esper3k

10-25-2011, 03:06 PM

I think Trinisphere is stronger against High Tide as it hinders your setup more, but Thorn is better against faster storm combo as it's easier to resolve T1. They're both a headache for Enchantress, not sure which is better though.

My theory is that against Enchantress, Trinisphere is stronger since it taxes their draw engine more (they're based mostly on 1 drop enchantments to get the draw engine going).

Michael Keller

10-25-2011, 04:26 PM

Nice work on the finish! Good to see Imperial Painter in the spotlight again.

DrewliusMaximus

10-25-2011, 06:11 PM

Seems like Thorn would be better than Trinisphere against High Tide because it will hit their 3+ cc spells too. Turnabout and Cunning Wish now cost more, etc.

Vandalize

10-25-2011, 07:26 PM

Esper3k

10-25-2011, 10:27 PM

Grymer

10-26-2011, 03:29 AM

thx to you all :)

Have you tested a Spellskite in there? I found him to be headache for many decks, especially with Welder.

yeah i do like spellskite and i realy wanted space for it in the list but i couldnt finde the space in the 75 cards... il also wanted the last magus in the bord but again i couldnt finde the space :/

I really like the Thorns. Like you said, easier to get out turn 1 then Trini, and seems more useful against High Tide and Enchantress maybe?

well i didnt fear high tide with all the blast main :) so the thorns was against ant decks :)

Well, and he had to mull to 4 in g2 :(

yeah it was pretty sad :(
the Ant player was pretty lucky game one.. he topped the only swamp in his deck and the infernal tutor when he was at 2 hp... -_-'

i would say i had a realy good chance to make an even better results if i could dodge the combo decks in top 8 (ant / hivemind)

Philipp2293

10-26-2011, 03:32 AM

Congratz again! Is Hive Mind really that bad of a MU? Since you have the blasts for his combopieces, also when he Show and Tells you always got the chance the drop your 2nd combo piece into play.

dsck

10-26-2011, 03:57 AM

Congratz again! Is Hive Mind really that bad of a MU? Since you have the blasts for his combopieces, also when he Show and Tells you always got the chance the drop your 2nd combo piece into play.

Emrakul is pain in the ass in the Hive Mind matchup.

Jelmerz77

10-26-2011, 04:41 AM

This deck's only problem is the same that hits Lands.dec: The awsomely huge priced cards.

I mean, buying a The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and a set of Imperial Recruiters isn't the most cheap thing in the world.

That's why these decks represent a few percentage of the field. Still, they're pretty much powerful :)

@GP Amsterdam: Nice results for Imperial Painter, too bad ANT is too fast :(

If I look at the decks being played at the GP I don't think money is the problem.
If I look at my own situation it was just the rarity, I have all my cards in English because I like to be able to read them.
It took me 2,5 years to trade 4 English Imperial Recruiters, and I had all the trading staples available, they were just hard to find.

Sloshthedark

10-26-2011, 06:50 AM

This deck's only problem is the same that hits Lands.dec: The awsomely huge priced cards.

I mean, buying a The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and a set of Imperial Recruiters isn't the most cheap thing in the world.

That's why these decks represent a few percentage of the field. Still, they're pretty much powerful :)

@GP Amsterdam: Nice results for Imperial Painter, too bad ANT is too fast :(

The problem with Lands is not Tabernacle, the deck is super-hard (and super-fun) to play and is unplayable while everyone plays Surgical extraction and Clique... you just need one tabernacle which costs about 3 duals, which you play 3-5 in the deck, so altogether it costs like Threshold and the card is really powerful and won't drop in value and is easy to buy..

on the other hand Imperial recruiter cost 3/4 of tabernacle, is playable in one good and one bad deck, its powerlevel equals to trinket mage and could be reprinted... and you need 4 of them.. at least it makes Imperial Painter appearance unique and unexpected

Gocho

10-26-2011, 06:52 AM

Sloshthedark

10-26-2011, 02:20 PM

well we see it same way, I had tabernacle and do not have/do not plan to have recruiters

rancOr_

10-28-2011, 01:45 PM

First,congrats on the awesome finish!! It was indeed an epic g3.
I play IP myself,list looks very similar except i play with 4 tops md and no revoker,but I can see him being good naming LED to have more ways to fight combo g1 besided moon effects etc..
The list u played seemed rock solid,dont think there's that much room for improvement MD. And u made a good call going with 4 moons:) as it teared the meta apart. Grtz

Malchar

10-31-2011, 10:22 PM

But if he buys a playset of Imperial Recruiter, he only can use it in 2 competitive decks: Imperial Painters and Imperial Aluren. And it's not easy to sell them. It doesn't see a good inversion, because with all this money you can buy many other cards.

But you only need to have one competitive deck in order to play legacy. Besides, Imperial Painter is way cooler than duals, goyf, and jace, which everyone else uses.

LegacyInferno

11-01-2011, 12:04 AM

I disagree with you.
If a new player buys a set of Underground Seas and Polluted Delta, he can play them in many decks.

If he buys a set of Tarmogoyf, Jace, or other expensive cards, he can play them in many others. And if he want to sell them, you can try in your local shop or your local players..

But if he buys a playset of Imperial Recruiter, he only can use it in 2 competitive decks: Imperial Painters and Imperial Aluren. And it's not easy to sell them. It doesn't see a good inversion, because with all this money you can buy many other cards.

I strongly disagree with this statement both as a player and collector. Imperial Recruiter is a money and chase card to for many collectors and players alike. Due to the fact that Portal sets were limited edition sets to being with. Having access to those cards as a player opens up many options and I feel you are thinking too close minded in this manner. Gofys and Jaces are easy to find, same with FoW and Wastelands. but recruiters, if someone is selling them, someone is buying them probably before they even hit store displays. I've worked in enough shops to know chase portal cards are chase for a reason.

Vesper Ghoul

11-06-2011, 12:48 AM

Hey people its been a while. And the top 8 in the GP has this thread a bumpin.

Just got home from Jupiter games NELC series. The last NELC I played Mud and said with the huge concentration of blue decks I was playing Painter at the next event. Then Kim Grymer top 8'ed the GP and I was more excited about playing the deck again. I top 4'ed the event losing to Eli Kassis in the top 4 beside being a great player he had a sideboard of Emrakul, Null Rods, Disenchant, and Surgical Extractions. Definite cross hate that hits the deck pretty hard. I'll highlight the day and try to recap tomorrow.

Still Not Cutting Figure,
Joe

oRen

11-06-2011, 01:06 AM

on the other hand Imperial recruiter cost 3/4 of tabernacle, is playable in one good and one bad deck [...]
Aluren runs Brainstorms therefore I guess Imperial Painter is the bad deck. Am I right ?

Grymer

11-06-2011, 06:51 AM

Nice run Joe :)

Still Not Cutting Figure

I think Figure is horrible imo.. when i started playing imperial painter, i testet it for a tournament and halv the time i couldnt make it bigger then 2/2 becus i didnt had any blood moons down or to few mountains.. so if i was you then i would cut it ;)

btw can you post your list? :D

-Kim

Vesper Ghoul

11-06-2011, 09:51 AM

Creatures
1 Goblin Welder (single-handedly won games)
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage (best card all day hard to believe it wasn't in my 60 for a while)
3 Magus of the Moon (good but not as good as it was before dismember)
4 Painter's Servant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Figure of Destiny (went to 8/8 for wins card it was still good in non blue match ups)

Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast

Enchantments
4 Blood Moon

Artifacts
3 Chrome Mox
4 Grindstone
3 Sensei's Divining Top (I could see this being a two of I almost always cut 1-2 for side board)

Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Great Furnace
5 Mountain
2 Scalding Tarn (faking blue was good opening up to stifle was bad)

Sideboard (15 cards)
1 Pyroblast
2 Pyroclasm (better than I want to admit)
3 Trinisphere (never came in)
2 Tormod's Crypt (never came in)
1 Umezawa's Jitte (Still good)
1 Viashino Heretic (Yep too slow, bad all day been in board for so long but its time to go)
2 Koth of the Hammer (I have played Koth before in the main and he was great, this time he was horrid)
1 Relic of Progenitus (never came in)
1 Phyrexian Revoker (wasn't a factor for me glad it was here and not main)
1 Faerie Macabre (never came in)

Round 1 vs. Some Snap caster variant
Game 1 On the play Mooned turn 1 and rode to victory
Game 2 Moon again on the draw but he didn't have a fetch but did get to play a island and attempted to Spell Snare painter it got blasted I won. He cast 1 spell the entire match skill game (not really.)
(1-0)

Round 2 vs Junk (Drove him to the tourney FML E Bridge would have been good here)
Game 1 I won with him on 3 lands he had Vindicate my field was welder, Gstone, Painter, and lands with a furnace in hand explained how he stil lost and off to game 2.
Game 2 he lands top I have Revoker which I want to name Diamond with but top is so crucial for finding basics and smoothing draws I name top. Long story short I lose to Mox Diamond.
Game 3 is a bit of a blur coudln't activate combo as I was beaten down too far and drew 3 Tombs no Citys.
(1-1)

Round 3 Bant
Game 1 Turn 1 Blood Moon not a real game.
Game 2 Kept a no lander was rewarded with drawing a Tomb off the top Mooned. Jaya Ballard killed a KotR and did 15 damage to the face with Incinerate.
(2-1)

Round 4 Zoo (also in my car)
Game 1 a nail biter with a moon and getting there barely FIGURE!!!!!
Game 2 I was in it for a while but the swarm got there
Game 3 I feared the REBs he could bring in too much but combed off at 4 life. His first turn was Canopy, Hierarch pass I was Stone pass. He goes you are going to hate me Tiaga, Nacatl, Nacatl, and Nacatl I moon take 6, Recruiter for painter take 4. Play painter bolt 1 no block. He blows up Painter I play the second one. Again no block didnt want a silly combat trick to blow me out untap and win.
(3-1)

Round 5 Maverick
Game 1 This one was pretty epic. He had Scryb Ranger and multiple Moms all of which could have been killing me. He made the mistake of SFMing up a fire and ice. I had Painter (Blue) Magus, Fully leveled Figure!, Jaya, couple of Recruiters and a monkey. Swung him to 7 basically chucking everything bad at him with Jaya. He has 2 Jitte counters multiple moms and Scryb Ranger after combat and I have Jaya Figure and Painter and a monkey. On his turn he activated Jitte to kill off Jaya I Wildfire (first time ever) in response he StPs my Figure which would have survived. He saves stuff with mom and the ability resolves. He goes to one I pray for bolt off the top. Rip Great Furnace (booo) but I fetch to which he responds that he forgot moon was gone and fetches as well. I let him he gets Forest shuffles presents and I tell him that he is dead. He asks to take it back but we are at the point of no return. Yes, kinda crappy on my part but I put myself in a position to win in a game I should have clearly lost. Didnt draw Stone the whole long long game.
Game 2 Stony Silence, Runed Halo, Just bashed his way home before I saw blast one.
Game 3 2 minutes in round (ARG!) Moon and I comboed on turn 1 of Turns he had StP and Stoney Silence in hand but couldn't cast them due to Moon. I knew there was a reason we play that card.
(4-1)

Round 6 Fae Blade
Game 1 On the play Moon, to combo he did play a mystic which got Fire and Ice LOLz.
Game 2 He tries to tempo the match and he out temps him self. He does get his two disenchants putting my painters to the bin. I land Welder and pass. My turn I draw have blast back up Activate Stone with the effect on the stack weld it out bring in painter name blue "kill you?" he tries to rules lawyer for a second (I've seen him do this sort of thing before) I explain it again. Enter Scoop Step!
(5-1)

Round 7 Bryant Cook TES (ID)
(5-1-1)

Top 8
Fae Blade U/W
Game 1 I was on the moon/beat down plan then Batter skull happened on 5 lands.
Game 2 Turn 1 moon GG (best part was he feared Heretic it stay in board) Jaya blasted away relevance including a Batter skull late.
Game 3 He plays Tundra I play moon putting him on Force/Daze hand I was right he forces I remove SSG blast it. Which if he had the second c spell its no good for me he doesnt. I play out 3 painters all on blue blasting basics on the way and swing home.

Top 4
Eli Kassis U/W Snap Tempo
Game 1 He gets game one (not happy) Flippin' Batterskull
Game 2 Moon + aggro team keep him off basics not much of a game. (side out 4 grindstones 2 tops and 1 chromes mox for: Revoker, 2 Koth, Blast, Heretic, and 2 Pyroclasm.) His board has mutiple hate cards which I tried to not play around by hoping to blank some of his deck. Gotta try to next level a master sometimes.
Game 3 Going good till Batterskull hit the table :( Heretic is way too slow. Wished I had Metamorph and Manic Vandal.

Money in my pocket sounded really good. Recruiters have more than paid for themselves in the years I've had mine. Top 4 chopped to $350! :cool:

Grymer

11-06-2011, 10:23 AM

Vesper Ghoul

11-06-2011, 10:47 AM

nice list its very similar to mine ;) haha

well in my meta.. i cant play like 7 blood moons main bord thats just bad.. becus the meta im playing in they know how to play against imperial painter so they play alot of basics :(
so the list i played in amsterdam wont be the same as i play in my meta.. :)

Figure of Destiny: have you tryed kargan dragonlord?
Viashino Heretic: have you tryed manic vandal? i think its alot better.
Trinisphere: what decks was it against, cus i found thorn of amethyst alot better against ANT becus its so easy to cast turn 1 insted of turn 2 (that might be too late against ANT decks)
Pyroclasm: is to bad in my home meta cus of all the G/W so i will play firespout again :)

dont you miss like metamorph against emrakul or progenitus? :D

1. I have tried Kargan if you think leveling Figure is hard try Kargan it was terrible for me.
2. Heretic needs to go as in my comment on it in board. Not owning Standard cards is an issue at times.
3. Been playing Trinisphere for a long time Thorn may be better against ANT but I haven't tested it which is funny cause I play ANT as well. The meta at this store is so heavy blue I figured I'd dodge combo all day. More players play TES there than ANT I might test it out to see what is better. The Ari LAx build is almost always turn 3 and almost never turn 1 TES is more of a turn 1/2 deck. At SCG Open Baltimore I played ANT vs painter and I won playing ANT.
4. Thought about Firespout, Red Sun's Zenith, Slagstorm, and Pyroclasm for the sweeper. The amount of people playing Delver meant no to Firespout. Almost played RSZ for the extra shuffle effect (might be good.) Slagstorm I like for being 3 damage that could also be a kill spell late. I plan on testing the last two.
5. I wanted Metamorph for Batterskull more than anything else. Gotta buy more standard cards.

GoblinZ

11-06-2011, 02:43 PM

Pyroclasm: is to bad in my home meta cus of all the G/W so i will play firespout again :)

I think pyroclasm is enough for gw, firespout cannot kill aven and scryb ranger.

GoblinZ

11-06-2011, 02:52 PM

Does Thorn of Amethyst help against Sneakshow？I always think this match up is nearly unwinnable...

Grymer

11-06-2011, 04:34 PM

4. Thought about Firespout, Red Sun's Zenith, Slagstorm, and Pyroclasm for the sweeper. The amount of people playing Delver meant no to Firespout. Almost played RSZ for the extra shuffle effect (might be good.) Slagstorm I like for being 3 damage that could also be a kill spell late. I plan on testing the last two.

Would you sideboard a board sweeper in against decks that plays Delver ? you have a good machup against those decks.. blasts, bolts and jaya should do the job against blue creatures like cliuqe and delver.. :)

Pyroclasm: is to bad in my home meta cus of all the G/W so i will play firespout again :)

I think pyroclasm is enough for gw, firespout cannot kill aven and scryb ranger.

yea your right.. but my meta is alot aggro based G/W, Goblin, Merfolk and random cookie decks (where firespout is alot better)

Does Thorn of Amethyst help against Sneakshow？I always think this match up is nearly unwinnable...

hmm i dont think it helps alot.. i havent played the machup against a good player in my meta yet.. only the random dudes that sometimes show up with bad builds(i win those) but i dont think we realy can win easy... i guess the plan against sneak_attack.deck is to get painter down as fast as you can an prey to god that you will rip off blaster every draw lolz.. so you can hold them from getting show and tell or sneak attack resovled ;) and ofc board GY hate so you can still combo them.

Vesper Ghoul

11-06-2011, 11:44 PM

Depending on the type of deck with Delver I would/do/did. The U/W build to take down a first turn delver 2nd turn SFM you better believe it.

comeback

11-07-2011, 05:56 PM

Yesterday I played Grymer version with W splash, I recognized I could play around Wasteland & Stifle so I opted for the following changes:

Land
-2 Great Furnace
-3 Mountain
+1 Arid Mesa

Maindeck
-1 Magus of the Moon
-1 Sensei's Divining Top
+2 Enlightned Tutor

Changes were mainly driven by:

turn 2 Blood Moon is better than turn1 Magus of the Moon
tutor for Grindstone in the case I open a first hand with a couple of reb and a painter
increase some MUs post side: storm combo, dredge, burn & sneak&show

LIST

Land
1x Great Furnace
2x Mountain
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Arid Mesa
1x Wooded Foothills
4x Plateau
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors

Spells
2x Enligthned Tutor
4x Grindstone
4x Blood Moon
4x Ligthning Bolt
3x Red Elemental Blast
3x Pyroblast
3x Chrome Mox
2x Sensei's Divining Top

Creatures
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Imperial Recruiter
2x Magus of the Moon
1x Goblin Welder
1x Jaya Ballard Task Mage
1x Phyrexian Revoker

SIDEBOARD

1x Phyrexian Metamorph
1x Peacekeeper
1x Viashino Heretic
1x Faerie Macabre
1x Etherswon Canonist
1x Spellskite
3x Surgical Extraction
3x Thorn of Ametyst
2x Koth of the Hammer

I ended 6th out of 51 with a 4-1-1 and I lost in top4 vs High Tide so I'm still quite sad especially because post side after g1 I was with an hate of 3x Thorn of Ametyst, 1x Eherswon Canonist, 1x Faerie Macabre & 3x Surgical Extraction on top of 6 reb maindeck but ok my plan of initially delay him with a thorn and try to mull a couple of time, beating and kill key cards or spells with reb effects or surgical did not work.

I have not a detailed description of my games except for Round 1 & partially Round 2 and I want to avoid you to read something like "he did some attacks, I wait and after combo..."

Round 1 - Dragon Stompy
Game 1 - On the draw
He mulled 3 times so just 4 cards in hand but he started with Ancient Tomb for a CoTv1, me mountain pass, he played moutain thrinisphere pass, me ancient tomb recruiter for jaya pass, he played mountain Instigator Gang so no cards in hand, I removed SSG jaya pass, he attacked I stopped, I played Paiter U and I started to destroy his permanents and beat with painter and later with a played SSG
Game 2 - On the draw: IN Peacekeeper, Viashino Heretic, Spellskite, 2x Koth of the Hammer, Phyrexian Metamorph OUT Moon effects
He played mountain chrome mox for CoTv and my hand was fetch fetch traitors koth ... so me fetch pass, he played mountain thrinisphere pass, me fetch pass, he played land pass so me 2xfetch for moutain city koth to 4 attack pass, he played ssg, I played a painter, land koth to 5 attack pass, he played land again attack block, I drew the 2nd koth so ultimatum new koth to 5 pass and gg
1:0:0 - 2:0

Round 2 - Canadian
Game 1 - On the draw
He played fetch pass, I played tomb sensei look 3 pass, he played delver and pass, I played mountain look3 and pass... lag in notes except for the fact he attacked twice before flip and I killed it when it flipped, after i played one more tomb grindstone and recruiter for painter and at the end with the 3rd tomb I took 6 damage but combo with 2x reb in hand
Game 2 - On the draw: IN Spellskite 3xSurgical Extraction 2xKoth of the Hammer OUT 2x Magus of the Moon 2x SSG Revoker Welder
He started with fetch tropical delver, I played tomb top look3 pass, he did wasteland surgical on tomb pass, I did land pass, he did land grip on top I passed he did delver and I die some turns later my notes are something like 18-15-12-9-6-3
Game 3 - On the play: I played tomb sensei look3 pass, he played fetch pass, I played land fetch all in with moon in t2 and it worked so I passed, he drawn a lot of land and I did several attacks with a welder and after with an imperial that tutored painter and combo protcted
2:0:0 - 2:1 - 4:1

Other games:

Round 3 - FaeBlade
2:0:1 - 1:1 - 5:2 --> for an MU's analysis I can considered it like a win, combo in 5th additional turn so when I passed there was not the 6th

Round 4 - GWr Maverick
Game 1 I won
Game 2 I dropped due to personal problem
3:0:1 - 1:0 - 6:2

Round 5 - My team-mate with UGR Tempo --> we split 50/50 and he arrived top2 :)
Game 1 - On the draw unlucky game, I stopped him with a moon but I died 5 turn later by a delver without a bolt or a reb
Game 2 - On the play: same side in/out of Round2
I played a reb protected round 3 moon but he had on play already both island and forest, I was scared by a potential incoming goyf and from his 7 card with no creatures so I supposed in his hand at least 2x bolt and a counter and from my side there was not so much red mana for play koth and protect it so I played painter blu, I killed it with an ancient grudge and in resp I reb the forest but he replied with a reb on moon reb vs his reb fow so I lost both moon and painter while he just lost a forest but there was already 5 land in play out of which two burning willow, he started to play punishing and he played a delver so I die
3:1:1 - 0:2 - 6:4

Round 6 - ANT
Game 1 - On the draw
Game 2 - On the draw: IN Etherswon Canonist 3xSurgical Extraction 2xKoth of the Hammer OUT: Welder Jaya 1xGrindstone 1xPainter 1xReb 1xBolt
4:1:1 - 2:0 - 8:4

Top8 High Tide
Game 1 - On the play and he mull
Me mountain pass, he fetch pass, me fetch pass, he fetch pass, me city moon and he double fetched in resp, I passed and he played land pass, me pass, he played land again so there were already 4 land so I played land magus pass butr he started combo when I was with just one reb and he was protected while after spiral I did not see ssg and reb
Game 2 - On the play IN 2xKoth of the Hammer 3x Surgical Extraction Fearie Macabre 1x Etherswon Canonist 3x Thorn of Ametyst OUT Revoker 1x Blood Moon 3x Chrome Mox 4x Lightning Bolt 1x Painter 1x Sensei's
My hand was: surgical ssg reb reb thorn city of traitors thorn so I started with city thorn, he played land pass, I drew koth pass, he played land pass, I drew mountain but I did not played it because I was lookig for another 2mana land or sensei or second thor so I passed, I played land merchant scroll for wipe away, I played in eot surgical on merchant, I drew 2nd mountain so I crash traitors mountain, he played land again cantrip pass, I played second land pass and he played the fifth land, me drew pass in eot wipe away so his turn land tide me reb he played turnabout me reb him fow and after he played spiral, in my new hand just a playable surgical, he did a couple of cantrip including a reshuffled ponder and a brainstorm, he was about 10 mana in pool when he did turnabout that resolved, me surgical on turnabout but he played the second from the hand so he accumulated a lot of mana and after I just remember he won...

General judge: deck seems to be solid, it is really strange to define what is your strategy since the beginning of the game and it is more like "try a plan only if the backup one is ready the next turn", I have won more games with critters than with the combo mainly driven by the strategy to play painter welder and grindstone just for finish the hate or counter of the opponent, I'll try the deck again just to understand if it is good also when opponents already know what you could play and they started to fetch only for basics.

My 2 cents.

Jelmerz77

11-08-2011, 07:27 AM

hmm i dont think it helps alot.. i havent played the machup against a good player in my meta yet.. only the random dudes that sometimes show up with bad builds(i win those) but i dont think we realy can win easy... i guess the plan against sneak_attack.deck is to get painter down as fast as you can an prey to god that you will rip off blaster every draw lolz.. so you can hold them from getting show and tell or sneak attack resovled ;) and ofc board GY hate so you can still combo them.

Well Kim, i think you're wrong there... GY hate won't work because most Show and Sneak decks I run into run multiple copies of Progenitus and Grinding those away with painter out will get you in an infinate loop and will result in a draw. So that is why Show and Sneak is pretty hard.

This ofcourse still works with decks that play just show and Tell into Emrakul.

Michael Keller

11-08-2011, 09:29 AM

Updated and touched up the O.P. for reference.

TheDreamStalker

11-14-2011, 04:58 PM

has anybody tried to include gamble for imperial painter? i think its a really underrated tutor that could bring the consistency of the deck way up, especially since misstep is gone. also by including gamble, imperial painter could be able to run more one of's, and would give the deck fantastic sideboard options. i would consider making the following changes to the painter deck that recently got top 8:

-3 lightning bolt

+3 gamble

this is just an interesting idea i think, so please let me know what you guys think

Malchar

11-15-2011, 12:00 AM

Gamble is an ok card, great with goblin welder. Usually people just use enlightened tutor, which is able to get basically anything you'd ever want, and white splash is already quite strong. Gamble has the advantage that you could actually use it turn 1 for something like a moon or painter combo and then proceed to cast what you searched for on turn 1 as well.

Rath

11-15-2011, 03:43 PM

Just as a pedantic side note:
Gamble cannot improve the "consistency" of Imperial Painter as the name and functioning of the card is inherently inconsistent! You are gambling each time you use it.

That being said, it works amazingly well in welder versions of the deck as when you have a welder in play you can cast things from your yard or your hand (artifacts that is). Gamble also allows you outs in certain situations, such as finding a needed moon or blast, which most other tutors cannot do. However, you still have to hope you don't lose it as Gamble resolves.

Basically, you are better off splashing white and casting enlightened tutor or switching to a welder build (and then I often still recommend a splash for blue!).

Mono red is meant to be aggressive and needs the outs which lightning bolt provides to the creatures which can ruin your day (bob, lackey, stoneforge, basically anything holding a jitte). Also the ability to hit planeswalkers should not be discounted! I actually run my bolts in the sideboard as I only want them in certain matchups, but wouldn't trade them out for gamble.

comeback

11-16-2011, 04:01 AM

I strongly suggest white splash if:

:1: your strategy is to play more as a control combo
:2: it easy for you to play around denial ---> in this case check your meta

W splash will improve your MU vs some impossible MUs like:

:1: burn
:2: sneak & show
:3: combo deck

Currently my side is:

2x Koth of the Hammer
2x Thorn of Ametyst
1x Etherswon Canonist
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Fearie's Macabre
1x Circle of Protection: Red
1x Peacekeeper
1x Viashino Heretic
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
1x Speelskite
1x Vexing Shusher

I have still some doubts about Vexing Shusher but my experience vs Spiral Tide is very negative so I'm looking for a non-counterable REB on his Time Spiral or Cunning Wish, Thorn of Ametyst is not sufficient especially if they will wait to have enough lands for Merchant Scroll --> Wipe Away, Wipe Away in EOT and start the loop in his turn.

I strongly suggest Bolt too, they are too much important vs aggro and tribal deck and especially vs all the deck that could abuse of Zenith and Noble Hierarch just to play around our moon fx.

My 2 cent

Malchar

11-16-2011, 11:35 AM

Bolt can also be useful against Ad Nauseam, or you can bolt your own guys against dredge.
Even if you can't kill a tarmogoyf with it, you can swarm and then try to finish off the opponent with direct damage. It's a very versatile card, and I don't think that swords to plowshares is automatically better.

Rath

11-27-2011, 08:05 PM

Went to another tournament, 16 person at my local store. Came in top 4 (split) with a 3 and 1 record.

I can post my list later if ppl are interested.
-------------------------------------------

Round 1 against Stone-blade Bant = win in 3
- Game 1 he got an unfortunate game loss after forcing my turn 1 blood moon. He drew, dropped a fetch, cracked it, and then drew again.
- Game 2 he dazed my painter when I foolishly dropped it turn 1 (on the draw). I do like to force the counter though, as we are the aggressor. He must have GSZ'ed 5 times this match, but didn't really have much pressure. Finally got a sword down with stoneforge and killed me
- Game 3, I went turn 1 painter, turn 2 blood moon, turn 3 recruiter for jaya and blew up his only basic

Round 2 against U/W control stone-blade ish thing = loss in 2
- Lost game 1 when he played 8 counterspells, including 2 snapcaster mages to bring back counterspells... ridiculous
- Lost game 2 when we were racing and I was down to 3 with a magus of the moon, 2 painters on blue and a recruiter, to his Big Jace and clique. I blasted the clique, but he dropped a spellstutter (ran as a singleton??) and equipped jitte. I got grindstone, but only had 2 mana left. He hit with jitte and killed my magus, leaving my unable to activate grindstone due to the ancient tomb damage I could no longer afford to take. Jace fatesealed me the last 2 turns

--> Disappointing, but good matches. This was the weirdest deck as he had so many randoms (1 spellstutter, 1 daze, 2 spell snare, etc) I just couldn't play around them all

Round 3 again reanimator = win in 2
- Game one I dropped painter turn 1, mox and grindstone with activation turn 2
- Game two I dropped grindstone and top turn 1, turn 2 I found painter and the land I needed and turn 3 I won again

Round 4 against reanimator = win in 3
- Game one I had NO idea what he was playing and playing into a force of will turn 1 and daze turn 2 (he entombed and I didn't think daze as I am not that familiar with reanimator builds). He got Jin-Gaxis, but I had down 2 painters on blue and welder. All I needed was to top-deck grindstone, but when he brought in Iona, I had to weld the painters in for great furnace to change colours (she named blue)... alas, no grindstone in the 4 turns I had. The worst part about this game was he was only able to force because I already had one painter out naming blue!!
- Game two he countered a moon effect, but lost to the painter on turn 2 and grindstone on turn 3, activation on turn 4. I did have phyrexian metamorph for his turn 2 Iona, naming red ;). Nihil spellbomb kept her from returning.
- Game three he mulled to 4, and I dropped turn 1 tormod's crypt, turn two grindstone and nihil spellbomb, turn three painter. I needed the crypt for his turn two jin-gaxis attempt though.

Overall, reasonable. Disappointing about losing to U/W control but overall pretty solid!

Rath

11-27-2011, 09:05 PM

Posting the list now anyways ;)

4 x Ancient Tomb
4 x City of Traitors
3 x Great Furnace
5 x Mountains
1 x Arid Mesa
1 x Scalding Tarn

----------
18 Lands

4 x Simian Spirit Guide
4 x Imperial Recruiter
4 x Painter's Servant
2 x Magus of the Moon
1 x Goblin Welder
1 x Phyrexian Revoker
1 x Jaya Ballard

--------------------
17 Creatures

4 x Blood Moon
4 x Grindstone
4 x Lightning Bolt
3 x Chrome Mox
3 x Sensei's Divining Top
3 x Pyroblast
3 x Red Elemental Blast
1 x Koth of the Hammer

--------------------
25 Spells

SIDEBOARD:
3 x Tormod's crypt
3 x Firespout
1 x Nihil spellbomb
1 x Red Elemental Blast
1 x Fairie Macabre
1 x Phyrexian Metamorph
1 x Spellskite
1 x Vexing shusher
1 x Manic Vandal
1 x Koth of the Hammer
1 x Viashino heretic

NOTES:
- I never once used the revoker and feel he was fairly useless... not sure what to replace him with though
- The firespouts never came in, but could be useful
- My standard anti-graveyard package is 3 x tormods, 1 x nihil, 1 x faerie + 1 metamorph against reanimator
- Spellskite is amazing
- Shusher is never as good as I think he will be, but he is such a huge perceived threat, it changes the way opponents play
- Heretic never came in either, but aside from swords, not many ppl were playing artifacts (I usually expect some hate like CotV or Affinity)

GoblinZ

11-28-2011, 03:56 AM

In my meta, there are a lot of thresh, so revoker is nearly useless for me. I run 7 blast and no revoker in the main deck.
I prefer manic vandal to heretic, for there are few decks with Cotv now

Rath

11-28-2011, 01:06 PM

In terms of revoker, naming Jace was nice but otherwise not so useful. You will notice the 4x lightning bolt to help against thresh (which I didn't ever face, but is still great against BoP / noble hierarch / etc).

I agree Vandal is nice as he just gets rid of what you want immediately.

If there was a lot of CotV running around + affinity, my recommendation is the old stand-by: shattering spree. Replicate is wonderful.

DrewliusMaximus

12-06-2011, 01:13 AM

I took second at a Beta Savannah tournament in Dallas this weekend at Gunslinger Games. I think there were 34 players, and I ran a list with a residual blue-splash leftover from days of Misstep, although I think I'll go back to mono-red now.

The blue splash was down to one Volcanic and one Trinket Mage in the SB. Here's the list:

8 Tomb/City
4 Fetch
7 Mountain
1 Volcanic

4 Lotus Petal
3 SSG

4 Blood Moon
6 Blast

4 Grindstone
4 Top

4 Recruiter
4 Servant
2 Welder
1 Metamorph
1 Jaya
1 Magus
1 Spellskite
1 Revoker

SB
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Revoker
1 Trinket Mage
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 EE
1 REB

I played High Tide, Dead Guy, High Tide again (and lost), RUG Tempo, Storm Combo w/Past in Flames, and then drew with Bant to go 4-1-1 into the top 8. In the top 8 I played Aggro Loam, and then Team America in the top 4. The final matchup was against Big Zoo, which is somewhat winnable with some of the new additions to Imperial Painter, but he beat me in two. The first game I actually came very close by forcing him to deal with Spellskite, Welder, and then two Servants with Grindstone. Unfortunately he had a crazy removal hand. The second game I mulled to 4 before I saw a land. No good.

The major lessons of the day for me were:

Maxing out on Blood Moons is the definitely the right thing to do. I didn't really even want another Magus either.

For me, Tops are too amazing in this deck not to play 4, especially with Welder.

Spellskite is awesome.

Revoker was relevant to me, but I know that he is much more important in a build that does not have burn and does have a Welder plan.

I like Thorn of Amethyst better than Trinisphere in the board. It saved me the match against Storm when I was able to play it turn 1 in the third match, when Trinisphere would have been too late.

I hate to say it, but I don't know if Jaya is needed in this build.

Trinket Mage and the blue splash are not worth it.

My intention is to drop Trinket Mage from the board and replace Jaya with the 7th Blast. Then I'd probably add 2 Crypts to the SB and change the EE to a Ratchet Bomb.

Overall, more good times for Imperial Painter. Love this deck.

Malchar

12-06-2011, 01:43 PM

Jaya is useful for two reasons. First, it's great when your opponent has progenitus, eldrazi, wheel of sun and moon, or other things that mess up the milling. Second, it's great because you can get painter and jaya using imperial recruiters. Grindstone can't be searched unless you have trinket mage. This isn't exactly the end of the world though, since jaya can't win the game instantly anyway, so having her isn't that much of an advantage. I think that running jaya comes down to the meta, and she is perfectly reasonable in the sideboard as well.

I agree about the moons. Blood moon is significantly better than magus, and I think that the 4/1 split is a good minimum to work from. Also, I like running as many blasts as possible since they're usually counterspells.

Has anyone considered using (spoilers) faithless looting from dark ascension? I was thinking of something like trimming down to 1x sensei's divining top and then filling in the empty slots with faithless looting.

Admiral_Arzar

12-06-2011, 01:55 PM

Has anyone considered using (spoilers) faithless looting from dark ascension? I was thinking of something like trimming down to 1x sensei's divining top and then filling in the empty slots with faithless looting.

I don't think the deck that plays Lotus Petal and/or Simian Spirit Guide needs more card disadvantage. Cutting tops also sounds awful.

Malchar

12-06-2011, 04:23 PM

I figure we already have so much card disadvantage, it doesn't matter that much. Besides, top is card disadvantage so replacing them with faithless looting doesn't really change anything. In fact, having multiple tops is actually completely useless. Ok, you can do things with goblin welder, but that just gives them an opportunity to kill your top, and it requires having a living goblin welder with nothing better to do.

Faithless looting also has tricks with goblin welder, which means that you don't necessarily have card disadvantage. Also, since we have so many potentially dead cards like extra city of traitors, spirit guide, or other mana things, we can use faithless looting to discard those. If you cast faithless looting with two city of traitors in hand which you know are dead, then you get virtual card advantage, which is better than anything else available to a monored deck.

Grymer

12-06-2011, 05:53 PM

what if faithless looting isnt real?.. that card just seems to sick to be real :S

Darklingske

12-07-2011, 07:12 AM

what if faithless looting isnt real?.. that card just seems to sick to be real :S

Oh, it's real! It has already been confirmed on wizards.com and will be in Dark Ascension as a COMMON!!!!!

Rath

12-07-2011, 10:44 AM

I like the idea of faithless looting... however, replacing top doesn't seem like the best idea. With top and 1 mana I can dig 3 cards, and draw if I really need to (e.g. to grab a blast as a counterspell). Usually in painter you are only looking for 1 card, not necessarily options, just 1 card (e.g. grindstone, recruiter, painter). I would love a split of 3 top / 2 looting... as card draw is nice in mono red, but would choose top over looting any day.

Think of it this way, in the majority of situations, you would prefer to have top. In your opening hand with a servant, you can drop top and spin it with a 2 mana land. Then its there for use whenever (to find grindstone in this example). Later on in the game, if you are top-decking, you prefer top as it doesn't require cards in hand to be good. Gindstone + top is also useful for removing your own chaff from the top of the deck. The only time I see faithless looting being better is when you already have a top in play and cards in hand, which just feels like another argument FOR top ;)

Just remember, both top and looting are really only for situations where you are looking for something... we are not a card advantage or draw deck. What we can do is top-deck an insta-win in almost any situation.

Grymer

12-07-2011, 11:03 AM

.....il just say... dredge will be sick with faithless looting................-_-'

i like faithless looting in this deck meaby as an one or two-off... if its real xd :p

Rath

12-07-2011, 04:47 PM

.....il just say... dredge will be sick with faithless looting................-_-'

I agree, but it will have to be a LED version to pull off the flashback. Could make some interesting starts, imagine a land, this and LED in your opener! Nice thing is it ditches the dredgers you drew back to the graveyard on resolution... so sweet, so explosive; another 12 cards down (with GGT)

DrewliusMaximus

12-07-2011, 07:42 PM

I don't understand Looting in this deck. I don't usually have a bunch of cards in hand ready to discard to it, and if the goal is to put cards in the gy then it seems like a waste.

Also, has an Imperial Painter list with less than 3 tops placed in any significant tournament in the last 12-18 months? To me the only question is whether to play 3or 4 tops.

Anaturaldeath

12-13-2011, 10:45 AM

Grymer

12-13-2011, 10:58 AM

@Anaturaldeath: nice run :D

how is Kargan Dragonlord in the deck?? i never had the balls to try him out my self... xd

Wirrsturm

12-13-2011, 06:06 PM

I just played in the SCG Invitational(4-0/8-1) and Legacy Open(7-2-1/14-4-1)with this deck http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=42662
All of my matches were fairly easy never felt like I was going to lose a game made a couple of mistakes that resulted me in losing 2games within the first 7rds of play conceded my round 8 to a friend and drew round 9 before losing a tight match in the t8

I watched your top 8 match, why did you not bolt the grim lavamancers more? If he blows up bridge you were going to die anyways and if he doesn't lavamancer was all that he had going for him. Especially letting him have more than one lavamancer.

BWM

12-15-2011, 03:50 AM

I was wondering if the Lightning Bolts are really needed or if they could be switched for some other card to make the deck a tad bit faster or more resilient.

Grymer

12-15-2011, 03:55 AM

i wouldnt cut lightning bolts.. they are realy sick in the deck to take care of birds and nobles under blood moon.. and slows down aggro for a moment.. :)

Rath

12-15-2011, 07:58 PM

I was wondering if the Lightning Bolts are really needed or if they could be switched for some other card to make the deck a tad bit faster or more resilient.

What would you switch them for? At this point, I am with Grymer and cannot really imagine much else I would run in their place.

DrewliusMaximus

12-15-2011, 09:58 PM

Congrats Anaturaldeath. I loved Dragonlord when I played him.

@BWM, I don't think Bolts are required. I've been playing a Bolt-less list for several tournaments with very good results.

BWM

12-16-2011, 04:09 AM

What would you switch them for? At this point, I am with Grymer and cannot really imagine much else I would run in their place.

Starting from Grymer's GP list:
1 Spellskite
2 Blasts (to make 8)
1 Top

If they are only there for Birds and Noble Hierarchs, why not play Forked Bolt instead?

Grymer

12-16-2011, 04:47 AM

If they are only there for Birds and Noble Hierarchs, why not play Forked Bolt instead?

forked bolt is pretty bad imo.. becus its sorcery speed.. and it cant realy take down a goyf or knight.. and some times you do make kills with bolts cus you can managed to get more in the hands... its just sad to sit with 2 forked bolts late game imo..

Cacks

12-16-2011, 08:46 AM

Congrats Anaturaldeath. I loved Dragonlord when I played him.

@BWM, I don't think Bolts are required. I've been playing a Bolt-less list for several tournaments with very good results.

Hi Drew - are you still playing a blue splash, or have you reverted back to mono R? Thanks.

DrewliusMaximus

12-16-2011, 11:43 PM

Cacks, I'm back to mono-red, but still with Petals.

This is what I'm running right now:

8 City/Tomb
4 Fetch
9 Mountain

4 Petal
2 SSG

4 Moon
4 Top

4 Grindstone
6 Blast

4 Recruiter
4 Servant
2 Revoker
2 Welder
1 Metamorph
1 Magus
1 Spellskite

SB
4 Bridge
4 Thorn
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Crypt
1 Blast

Revoker in this kind of build helps with some of the things I needed Lightning Bolt for and they fit into the Welder plan nicely too.

Generally speaking, I'm trying for more resilience. Tops and Welders make the deck scrappier and generate wins from many mediocre starts (sometimes with crucial help from a Petal in the yard).

Cacks

12-19-2011, 05:18 AM

Thanks Drew. I own the recruiters (having a dark, now deeply supressed, love affair with Aluren) but I am finding it difficult to find the balance between consistency and explosive power with this deck.

The problem is finding the sweet spot beween churning out early moon effects, and ending up essentially playing all-in red and hitting the inevitable do nothing hands (not somewhere I want to be!).

I like your top/welder/petal/metamorph package, but does this mean that you have effectively given up on a beatdown plan. Pretty much all of your wins are through the combo now, I presume? (Although dork beatdown is still viable enough under a moon I suppose)?

DrewliusMaximus

12-19-2011, 09:04 PM

The problem is finding the sweet spot between churning out early moon effects, and ending up essentially playing all-in red and hitting the inevitable do nothing hands (not somewhere I want to be!).

Cacks, I agree with the direction you're going with the deck. When I think about the competitive reasons to play Imperial Painter over another deck I always come back to:

1. being able to hate non-basics more than any other deck (Moons);
2. being able to hate the color Blue more than any other deck (Blasts);
3. playing a fully-powered Stompy manabase in an acceptably reliable deck.

If you read this article (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/23278_Hating_NonLinear_Strategies.html) by Carsten Kotter, Imperial Painter looks like THE deck that "Attacks Overlaps" in Legacy.

Being able to play an early Moon gives us so much hate on the "overlapping" use of fetches, duals, etc. that we can win a fair amount of games with that single card. Same concept with the Blasts' interaction common blue-based strategies.

So, the foundations of the deck are the Stompy manabase and Moon plan, the Servant + Grindstone win, a bunch of Blasts, and Recruiters.

After that, I do think the goal is to avoid doing exactly as you said and "ending up essentially playing all-in red and hitting the inevitable do nothing hands". There are plenty of good performances from more "all-in" versions of Imperial Painter, but I think the balanced approach can perform just as well with more consistency.

With that in mind, I like my 4 Tops for sure.

I gave up the true beatdown plan (and Bolts) for the current Welder/Metamorph/Spellskite/Revoker plan to gain resilience and flexibility. I might always go back to a Dragonlord or something, but since the beatdown guys we use are not Shrouded or anything, many times we're back to the same card disadvantage problems and those do nothing hands after the beater gets removed.

Metamorph can always copy a big guy. From a defensive standpoint, if you use it to copy a Recruiter, and get a Welder, you might also stop your opponent's attack because putting Metamorph in the yard is going to mean another tutored creature. Of course Spellskite is a major advantage-generator against removal, especially when combined with Welder. And sometimes you can even smother the opponent in pure card advantage when you have 2 Welders and Tops letting you draw two cards at the end of every turn. With that kind of card advantage, weenie beatdown is an even more legitimate option.

I also really like the full set of Ensnaring Bridges in the SB, and so there's an extra excuse to drop the offense and concentrate on defense.

What have you been trying?

Cacks

12-20-2011, 11:35 AM

Hey Drew. I had been trying a more beatdown version, but not liking it.

I have been trying all sorts of constructions, but without finding anything that I have been sold on. The white splash for Stoneforge Mystic / Batterskull is great, until you land a moon and find that you can't do anything with your hand or actually kill your opponent!

If you want the worst of the ideas I've tried, how about batterskull and Godo (the red SFM...!), cursed scroll, lots of welders, no welders etc etc! Gotta give 'em a go, but no, I don't advise this to people at home!

Currently I am back to a list very similar to yours, but without revokers, 5 blasts and 7 moon effects. I also have a few chrome moxes, but frequently underwhelmed by them, and I think that my mana base will revert to something like yours. I also still have Jaya - I was surprised that she was not in your list? Do you find that you don't need her?

Dresden

12-20-2011, 01:20 PM

Is that new slow play rule going to hurt this deck vs milling opponent with progenitus/eldrazi in their deck?

Malchar

12-20-2011, 03:21 PM

What new rule? Anyway, I found this recently:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22774-Wheel-of-Sun-and-Moon-Helm-of-Obedience-Leyline-of-the-Void

According to that, using leyline of the void will allow you to win against a progenitus or wheel of sun and moon. Also, it completely stops any eldrazi triggers from ever happening. Leyline is a great card to sideboard against graveyard stuff, and now I realize that it even works against progenitus.

DrewliusMaximus

12-20-2011, 11:47 PM

Cacks, I'm still not sure about cutting Jaya. That's probably one of the most painful moves I've felt compelled to make with the deck since splashing a color.

In the last couple of tournaments she's seemed less necessary, and I've started to settle on some very specific cards in the 75.

I'm playing more through the Welders these days and preferring to Recruit immediate-effect guys like Metamorph, Revoker and/or Spellskite instead of Jaya. And after accommodating the slots for the Welder plan, I think I'd rather have an extra Blast than Jaya right now.

I wouldn't be surprised if cutting her is just wrong because of how many problems she potentially answers, but we'll see.

@Dresden, what slow-play rule? I don't know about it.

@Malchar, Leyline has been proposed before but unless there's black splash, I'm not sold. I don't like the idea of having to mulligan into it just be able to keep a hand versus an Emrakul deck. I'd rather drop Bridges and keep them locked out while I get a Crypt or Extraction.

Vesper Ghoul

12-21-2011, 07:01 AM

I have cut Jaya from the 60 and even the 75 before while at that time it may have been right it certainly isn't correct right now. As we all know Jaya deals with tons of problems and I have won several games lately which any other card would not have won me. Every turn 3 to the face gets there.

mpe

12-21-2011, 07:32 AM

Is that new slow play rule going to hurt this deck vs milling opponent with progenitus/eldrazi in their deck?

I think new rule won't hurt this deck. Your quoted case, if there are more than 2progenitus in opponent library and activate Grindstone + Painter, the game ends in draw because of infinite loop of progenitus and new rule doesn't concern.

Even if there is only 1 progenitus in opponent library, new rule doesn't hurt this deck, I believe. New rule says "It is also slow play if a player continues to execute a loop without being able to provide an exact number of iterations and the expected resulting game state."

Exactly, we may see progenitus may loop between graveyard and library but we don't activate grindstone again and again. I mean, we don't execute a loop but it's the result of the one time activation of grindstone.

If this rule hurts something, it would be Monolith Orb combo deck.
I'm not judge and I may wrong but this is what I understand.

Malchar

12-21-2011, 07:53 AM

The last post seems correct. We definitely aren't using a loop because we only activate an ability once, so the new rule doesn't apply to us. As it was stated in the main thread for the new rule, it doesn't really change gameplay. It's mostly just a codification that you cannot shortcut a loop without knowing exactly what happens after some iteration, which basically was already a rule.

Malchar

01-01-2012, 04:21 PM

I went 4-1 at Monster Den's weekly tournament. My list is monored, and it's pretty similar to the others posted here.

maindeck
2 wooded foothills
3 bloodstained mire
5 mountain
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
3 chrome mox
4 simian spirit guide

1 sensei's divining top
2 gamble
3 red elemental blast
3 pyroblast
4 lightning bolt
4 blood moon
4 grindstone

1 jaya ballard, task mage
1 spellskite
1 goblin welder
3 magus of the moon
4 imperial recruiter
4 painter's servant

sideboard
1 red elemental blast
1 pyroblast
4 leyline of the void
4 thorn of amethyst
2 trinisphere
1 phyrexian metamorph
1 phyrexian revoker
1 viashino heretic

Round 1, Blecher, loss
It's probably the worst matchup because moons and blasts are both useless. He won with empty the warrens each time. In game 1, I was able to assemble the combo and go off after he had already cast empty the warrens and attacked once. In the other games, I mulliganed often but never found a good hand with hate that I could cast turn 1. He muliganed twice in one game I believe, but he always went off turn 1. I could try using pyroclasm in the sideboard since it would hurt me less than trinisphere.

Round 2, *bye*, win

Round 3, Liliana-Tezzeret-Pox, win
The disruption consisted of discard, executioner's capsule, engineered explosives, and chalice of the void (probably after sideboard). The capsule is easily dodged by naming black with painter's servant. The explosives are avoided by using blood moon, although he also had mox opal. My aggro strategy was completely shut down by recurring nether spirits, but I had plenty of time to assemble the combo. Lightning bolt was useful against the planeswalkers. I lost one game here after my hand was thoroughly trashed (including my 1 viashino heretic which unluckily happened to be in my opening hand) and then he played a chalice @ 1.

Round 4, Goblins, win
This is a very good matchup for the deck. I feel for the opponent though because I used to play Goblins before I started playing Painter. He was using monored with goblin grenade, and then he added pithing needle after sideboard. I used jaya to destroy the needle and then won. Imperial recruiters are great for chumping piledrivers or lackeys. It's possible that you don't want to name blue with the painter due to their goblin piledriver, but goblins usually has to mull to a slow hand anyway in order to have a chance against combo.

Round 5, Canadian Thresh, win
This is basically the David Caplan list except with 4 delver of secrets added instead of the 1-of bounce spells, a ponder, and a goose or something like that. It's a hard matchup, but it was against my testing partner, so I knew how to win. If they don't play a creature early, you play slowly and sculpt your hand, also being sure to dodge daze. With the blasts and mana advantage from the :2:-land, you should win the eventual counter-war. It's best to play grindstone first otherwise the painter will get burnt out in response to the grindstone. If they burn out the painter with a grindstone in play, you just win in response. Spellskite and goblin welder are both quite good for this matchup. Also, if you're able to resolve a blood moon, you probably win. This is also why I use more moons than maguses.

Notes
Gamble has been pretty good in testing. I tried running 3 senseis, but I think using 1 sensei 2 gamble is better because you never end up with multiple senseis. I found myself frequently wanting to search for an ancient tomb with gamble, so I might just try adding more land in this slot instead. I like having more ways to get grindstone though. The card probably shines when you use more than just 1 goblin welder, so my list probably isn't suited for it. It could theoretically be useful against combo decks to search for hate on turn 1. I never actually got it at a relevant time during the tournament though.
I might try using manic vandal in the sideboard in addition to the heretic. I don't think that either card is necessarily better than the other. I'd like to have 2 cards slots though to increase the chance of getting it, and if your only one gets removed, then it's usually troublesome in those matchups where you wanted it. My main problem with the vandal is that it only works once, and it's almost impossible to kill a batterskull with it. If a deck has artifacts that I need to destroy (other than batterskull) then they usually have multiple troublesome artifacts.

BWM

01-02-2012, 06:31 AM

Against what decks is Spellskite good?

GoblinZ

01-02-2012, 06:39 AM

Against what decks is Spellskite good?

I usually board spellskite in against threshold and burn

Malchar

01-02-2012, 02:22 PM

I'm not all that excited about spellskite. I usually just wanted to search for another painter, but I might not be fully utilizing it. The main advantage is that it takes 2 lightning bolts or other burn spells for the opponent to kill it. You can also use it as a blocker.

Rath

01-03-2012, 03:34 PM

I might try using manic vandal in the sideboard in addition to the heretic. I don't think that either card is necessarily better than the other.

Sometimes you just have to kill something that turn (e.g. jitte, chalice) and that is where vandal shines. You are correct that they both cost 3 and both kill artifacts, but heretic takes an extra turn. With Vandal, you have it and welder to search for to deal with artifacts. I like it, but have used heretic successfully in the past as well.

DrewliusMaximus

01-05-2012, 09:50 PM

Against what decks is Spellskite good?

Spellskite is good against anything removal-heavy. It's especially good against Red removal (burn) and played with Welder. It's typically my first Recruiter target against Zoo. I'm down to one copy, but it's my main, and if I expected a Zoo or Red-heavy meta then I'd up the count. Spellskite is like a Mother of Runes-style defensive option that we can play in mono-red.

Re: Vandal vs. Heretic - While I don't run either right now, I began preferring Vandal when I did have an anti-artifact creature slot in the SB. I believe having the "faster" answer is usually preferable, and if you're not dealing with Jitte some other way (i.e. Ensnaring Bridge, Ratchet Bomb, etc.), then a Heretic isn't going to help. However, I used to run one of each in the board so that I had the long-term solution guy as an option.

Malchar

01-09-2012, 06:52 PM

I'll be trying my list again with the following changes:
-2 gamble
-1 goblin welder
[+3] crystal vein

//sideboard:
4 leyline of the void
4 chalice of the void
4 thorn of amethyst
3 trinisphere

Half the time when I drew Gamble, I really just wanted a land instead. The rest of the time, I'm not even searching for grindstone as I originally intended. It makes mulligans much harder to judge. Against control, I'd rather just wait it out than take -1 card advantage up front.

Goblin Welder is not useful as a 1-of because you never want to tutor for it, especially with the option of Spellskite. If you want Welder, you have to build around it and use stuff like Intuition or Faithless Looting. Gamble would probably be much better in that deck as well.

I'm increasing the land count because I want more consistency in the late game. Being able to cast a painter and grind right away is nice. Also, I have better consistency on turn 1, which helps against opposing combo decks and makes first-turn moon more likely against control.

As for the sideboard, I'm only losing to storm, which makes up a reasonable portion of my meta. I don't really need heretic/vandal because I still use a jaya in the main. Metamorph seems good, but I don't need it in my meta. The extra blasts are really overkill against a blue deck, and again I still have jaya. Lightning bolt is as good as a blast anyway against merfolk and delver. I also haven't really found a use for revoker. The deck is already stacked against jace, and stoneforge mystic dies to lightning bolt.

(nameless one)

01-10-2012, 12:10 PM

Grymer

01-10-2012, 12:58 PM

DrewliusMaximus

01-10-2012, 07:39 PM

I've always wanted to build this deck but unfortunately Imperial Recruiter is out of my budget (for now).

Is there a proven list that doesn't involve Imperial Recruiter? Just like Goblin Welders and Gambles? What about Faithless Looting?

Also, would that be venturing in the MUD category?

For Painter/Grindstone, the blue Intuition/Welder lists are proven.

I don't know about a proven Imperial-style list with Welders and Gambles instead of Recruiters but know people have tried it. I helped a friend with Recruiter-less build and rather than become MUD, it became multi-colored with less acceleration.

We went RW with 4 Lotus Petal and 4 Spirit Guides for acceleration and replaced the Recruiter engine with an E-tutor engine. Going Recruiter-less, you probably have to abandon some part of the real Imperial Painter strategy because Recruiter is the only engine card that fits a mono-red Stompy manacurve. We abandoned the early Moon strategy, although the potential to E-Tutor into a second turn Moon was there.

Of course the major problem here is that E-Tutor is card disadvantage, so we also gave that up.

Malchar

01-10-2012, 09:34 PM

If you don't want to buy recruiters, you could try doing a monoblue list with trinket mage instead of recruiter. This way, you have 8 ways to get grindstone and 4 ways to get painter, instead of the other way around. You could use blue blasts in the main, and replace the moons with force of will, daze, brainstorm, etc. I suppose you could try using back to basics as well. You'd still want the sol-land and moxes for the explosive early plays. One of the strengths of the deck is that it's monocolored.

If you go multicolored, the sol-land and moxes become much worse, and the best multicolored decklists generally forego those cards entirely. Playing a slower yet more resilient style with intuition and welder seems like the most logical step. You could check out the welder builds and just use painter/grindstone instead of whatever fatties they were planning to weld into play.

(nameless one)

01-11-2012, 12:30 AM

I'm actually contemplating on building a MUD-painter featuring Welders. I guess U/R is the way to go for me then.

Malchar

01-14-2012, 10:38 PM

Here's a small tournament report from my 8th-5th place finish at the monthly Monster Den tournament in Minneapolis. I'm not sure, but I think that there were about 50 players. I'm using my most recent list with the crystal veins.

Round 1 - win
I play against show and tell Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. I believe it was a monoblue list. He plays an island, and then I go for an early moon thinking he's playing stoneblade or UR tempo. I go on to bolt his Jace and think that I'm in a great position. He plays show and tell and I finally realize what he's playing. He wins game 1 with Emrakul.

I bring in 4 leyline and 4 thorn of amethyst in place of the moons and spellskite. For the next two games, I basically mulligan into leyline with really good hands and win by playing a combo piece off of his show and tell and then milling him before he gets to attack with Emrakul.

Round 2 - win
I play against WU stoneblade with geist of saint traft. Game 1 I lose to a fast geist which I can't answer. I don't sideboard anything. Game 2, I combo off pretty quickly. I don't remember if I had protection, but I feel like that deck doesn't have a very fast clock anyway since I can usually block and kill the geist. Game 3 I get an early moon and then the game goes long. He eventually gets a batterskull and starts swinging. I'm able to assemble painter plus jaya to shut down his batterskull. He brought in red elemental blast against me, but was never able to use it effectively.

Round 3 - loss
I play against WUB Ad Nauseam with orim's chant in the main. Game 1, I get an early moon and keep him shut down for a while. I have a super slow clock though, and just swing with maguses. He's able to go off with a lotus petal the turn before I would have killed him.

I side in everything except 3 leylines, removing 6 blasts, 4 bolts, jaya. I don't remember whether or not I kept spellskite, in which case I would have brought in another leyline. The leylines aren't that great, but I figure it's better than the blasts and bolts.

I keep a hand with a turn 1 trinisphere and other stuff. I end up with a trinisphere, magus, and 3 chalice of the void at 1, 2, and 4. I have a super slow clock and he eventually gets rebuild to bounce everything and go off in the same turn. The chalice at 4 was to stop repeal targetting the trinisphere, and it also stops him from going off through the chalices into an ill-gotten gains into a storm card. Apparently he uses rebuild instead of repeal though.

Round 4 - win
I play against UBR storm. Game 1, I get an early moon and a small army to beat his eventual empty the warrens. I think he had some shattering sprees to disrupt me early, but he basically had to storm out tokens just to stay alive against my attacks.

I sideboard the same as against WUB storm from round 3 except that I keep spellskite in since it can absorb removal spells aimed at thorn, chalice, and trinisphere. Game 2, I keep a hand with grindstone, painter, and chalice. He thoughtseizes the chalice, then I play the combo. He removes the painter on his turn, but I had already drawn another one the turn before or something like that. I cast it on my turn and have enough mana to activate the grindstone immediately.

Round 5 - win
I play against WB junk with stoneforge mystic. Game 1, I keep a rather bad hand with a lot of land in it and get nothing except a moon. He plays a stoneforge -> batterskull rather quickly and kills me.

Game 2, I have the nuts which kills him turn 2 unless he has a swords to plowshares. I play grindstone, painter, sol-land, and a mox. Apparently he had a swords, but not the right land to play it. He was only able to play a discard spell, so it was good that I played everything on turn 1. I grind him out the next turn.

Game 3, I keep a hand with two recruiters and a moon. I get the moon out early and then recruit painter plus jaya to lock him out.

Round 6 - draw
We intentionally draw into the top 8.

Top 8 - loss
I play against the same opponent I drew with the previous round. Game 1, I think he's playing stoneblade, so I'm very happy. I get an early moon, but then I realize he's actually playing UBR storm. I'm able to assemble my combo before he does, and I win.

Game 2, I sideboard the same as against the other storm decks I faced previously. I keep a pretty good hand with something to slow him down on my first turn, but I think he nabs it with a duress. He goes off rather quickly and wins.

Game 3, I (probably mistakingly) keep an insane hand of leyline, thorn, thorn, chalice, mox, recruiter, painter/moon?. I play leyline, mox, chalice for zero. He gets one of the thorns with a discard spell, and I cast the other one. I get a moon rather quickly, which shuts him down. The game goes long because I can't find my combo.

Eventually, he does a burning wish for shattering spree. I play a painter hoping to bait it. I also have another chalice in my hand which I keep. He kills the thorn and chalice and then passes the turn. I play my backup chalice at 1, but he goes off playing 2 LEDs, 1 petal, infernal tutor, and then getting a pretty sick ad nauseam draw.

I debated playing the backup chalice at 0, but I assumed that the thorn had been causing him most of the trouble, and he had already discarded one chrome mox. After the game, I realized that with moon and chalice at 0, there's no way for him to get black mana anyway, so chalice at 1 was probably useless except to turn off chain of vapor. I had a very slow clock on him anyway, so he could have still won even if I played the chalice correctly.

Conclusion
I'm pretty happy with the deck since I only lost to storm combo, which I consider to be my only bad matchup. I actually went 3-4 in games against storm decks, which I think is pretty good because I feel like some of those losses were close. Show and tell is also rather bad, but I had never seen anyone play it in this meta until today. The sideboard is quite good, bringing in leylines against dredge and reanimator, and bringing in everything else against combo with the option of also bringing in some leylines in place of jaya/spellskite. I generally don't sideboard against anything else, unless moons are dead, in which case I decide whether or not it would be better to bring in thorn or perhaps trinisphere. I don't really want to use chalice against anything besides combo because it hurts my deck too much.

I might change up some of the storm hate so that it's not all artifacts. This will help to dodge hurkyl's recall, rebuild, and shattering spree (which is quite painful if I have a moon in play). I might also look into recruitable creatures that hose storm, but I don't think that there are any in monored.

The rest of the top 8 consisted of merfolk, BG rock/nic fit, the storm deck I lost to in round 3 (I think it was him), and I don't know what else.

cuthbertthecat

01-15-2012, 11:07 PM

If you want recruitable storm hate, phyrexian revoker is decent against LEDs and lotus petals. It doesn't solve your problem of having only artifact-based hate, though.

jvmauck

01-20-2012, 05:53 PM

I have been playing Imperial Painter for about a year now, and I have a somewhat unique list, inspired by a blue-splash version I saw on here a little while ago.

Also, Hollywood, the original creator of the deck (and this thread), said he liked my version. (Thanks Hollywood!)

Imperial Painter

4x Painter's Servant
4x Grindstone

4x Imperial Recruiter
2x Goblin Welder
1x Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1x Trinket Mage
1x Spellskite
1x Phyrexian Metamorph

2x Magus of the Moon
4x Blood Moon

3x Red Elemental Blast
4x Pyroblast

4x Lotus Petal
3x Sensei's Divining Top

4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Arid Mesa
2x Volcanic Island
1x Badlands
5x Mountain

Sideboard
3x Thorn of Amethyst
3x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Faerie Macabre
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Phyexian Revoker
2x Martyr of Ashes
1x Silent Arbiter

I'm thinking of
-1x Tormod's Crypt out of the SB and +1x Phyrexian Metamorph in the SB.
-1x Phyrexian Metamorph main deck and +1x Spellskite.

Thoughts? I've been having issues with Zoo. I can't seem to survive the onslaught of removal.

Any comments/suggestions are welcome. Thanks

Malchar

01-24-2012, 08:32 PM

I haven't played much against zoo myself - I'm probably lucky. One of the tricks is to advance your board position rather slowly. Play land, recruiters, and whatever other tutors you need, but save the good stuff in your hand. If they tap out, or once you get way more mana than the opponent, play all your threats at once and kill them. Ideally, they won't be able to remove all your painters (and beat through all your red blasts and spellskite) in the same turn before you win. Welder is also a good threat in these situations since you can recur whichever piece they kill, requiring them to kill all your painters AND grindstones, instead of all of one or the other.

This works because most decks have to play threats early and then slowly beat down the opponent with them. With the painter deck, as soon as you have your threats assembled together, you win immediately. You have the luxury of taking your time and building up a powerful hand before you even cast anything, basically like a storm deck. Even if they're saving removal, you have just as much if not more redundancy in your deck. This is why running around 6 red blasts in the main is so strong. You also usually have more mana at your disposal than they do since we run the sol-lands. Their lightning bolt costs them one land, but our painters only cost us one land as well. You want to be careful with city of traitors in this situation. They can mess up your land advantage if you use them incorrectly.

The biggest mistake you can make is playing one piece of the combo without having the other piece ready to cast on the same turn and win. This just gives them a free opportunity to kill it. The whole point of combo is that it's so fast that you can hold all your threats and build up an unbeatable shield of red blasts and other various protections, and you don't have to cast anything until the last moment before they kill you on the ground.

Michael Keller

01-24-2012, 11:04 PM

So, how does everyone feel about running Faithless Looting in Imperial Painter? In conjunction with LED and Goblin Welder, it could be pretty nasty. Not only does it filter your draws, it can be bonkers with the aforementioned cards and appears to be able to add some level of consistency.

Thoughts?

Malchar

01-25-2012, 12:10 AM

I like the idea of it. My problem is that I'm having trouble fitting welder into the current list, not to mention cool things to weld plus the enablers like faithless looting. I think that it will require a large change to the current list. I had always thought that if you use welder then you might as well use intuition, in which case you might as well use a bunch of other blue cards as well. Perhaps it is possible to use welder in a monored list, but it will certainly require cutting the blood moons in order to make space, and if you do that, then there's much less advantage to being monored.

If anyone does happen to be working on a welder list, I think that anger deserves some consideration. Giving your welders haste makes them substantially stronger, and basically guarantees that you'll be able to get some kind of virtual cards advantage before they kill the welder.

I also look forward to future red looting cards as hinted at by Mark Rosewater in his most recent article:

We also spent some time coming up with the ways the two colors were going to use looting differently, but that happened after [faithless looting] got sent to print, so we'll save that discussion for another day. I will hint that under our new paradigm for how red uses looting, this card would be printed slightly different from its current wording.

I can only hope that the "new paradigm" doesn't involve random discard, which would be horrible. If I had to guess, I think it might be such that you have to discard before drawing, which wouldn't be that bad assuming they increase the strength of the effect overall to compensate the disadvantage.

DrewliusMaximus

01-25-2012, 10:05 PM

I've had excellent results with a mono-red list with Welder, but it certainly is not as dedicated to the Welder plan as the UR Intuition lists are. That's part of why I like it...it has many potential angles to attack from and is more difficult to hate.

Looting is no Intuition, but it would allow mono-red to become more centered around Welder. Blood Moon is the main reason to keep a mono-red build, so I'd start with Lotus Petal instead of LED because they help the Moon plan too. LED could work in addition though.

I like the idea of Looting especially since I'm already playing Welders. I can't think of what to take out right off the bat, but it'll be tested for sure.

DrewliusMaximus

01-27-2012, 08:03 PM

This is interesting: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7528&iddeck=54693

I kind of like it.

Malchar

01-27-2012, 08:40 PM

Replacing lighting bolt with punishing fire doesn't have that much of a disadvantage. It's good against delver, lavamancer, stoneforge, and other aggro weenies. I'm not sure how good it would be against zoo; it might be better to just be able to shoot for 3 via lightning bolt with no strings attached.

DrewliusMaximus

01-27-2012, 10:46 PM

Against Zoo, this guy has gone with MD Bridges. P Fire and Moon seem to conflict too much, but the deck top 8'd in 240-person tournament. I'm guessing he can pitch Moon to Chrome Mox or Jaya if he wants to keep the Fire plan.

amppyou

02-12-2012, 01:55 AM

Hi everyone,

New to this thread. I played u/r intuition fueled painter for a couple of months about a year ago but stopped when mental misstep was introduced. After I came back to legacy, it didn't feel like a good deck to pick up with surgical extraction running rampant along with so many decks now packing bolt/REB.

I played dragon stompy a little bit way back, so I've found the mono red painter build pretty interesting. I understand that it doesn't operate the same way stompy does, but it has some explosive opening hands, and that's something I enjoy in a deck. I've only gone through the most recent threads, but i noticed someone linked that 5th placed deck in Europe that plays a slow-em-down control style.

Is this common? it has some really unique choices (p fires obviously, cutting SSGs, etc). I only ask because I want to know where I should begin testing the deck, and what is ideal before I go trying new things.

2nd question - what's with the MD revokers? i know it's tutorable 'hate', but it seems like something "cute" and unlikely that you'd actually want to tutor for it.

3 - Spellskite is universally played as a 1 of i'd assume. it seems like a very strong tutorable effect to protect painter from all the bolts that are out there right now.

Thanks for any incite you guys can provide on the deck. I appreciate your time/knowledge.

Malchar

02-12-2012, 01:57 PM

The deck isn't too far from dragon stompy in my opinion. You basically try to play your hand which consists of a bunch of free mana and then the painter/grindstone combo to win as soon as possible. You also have moons as a way to slow down the opponent in case you can't assemble your combo right away. The blasts and lightning bolts allow you to also play a slower more protected style if needed. This is usually used against control decks with a slow clock.

Opposing combo decks can be annoying, which is why I don't like removing SSG. You really need as much speed as possible because your only chance is to race them. Sometimes resolving a moon or trinisphere/chalice from the sideboard will buy you enough time, but you never know until it's too late for it to matter. In my local testing, the only truly troublesome decks are storm/belcher. Burn, zoo, and U/R/x delver are the only other matchups that you can lose, everything else is free.

Punishing fires is not common. That list was the first one that I saw that used it. It seems like people are trying to squeeze fires into every archetype lately. The normal list just uses lightning bolt. Not sure which is better yet.

I don't like using revoker either, but it might depend on the metagame. I think having a viashino heretic or manic vandal in the sideboard provides enough answers. If you run lightning bolt and red blast in the main, then you should have plenty of answers to any threats. There's also jaya ballard, task mage, which is a great answer to most threats and allows you to set up a pretty strong lock with painter, and both cards are recruitable.

Spellskite is quite good. It's probably the only protection worth recruiting ahead of time if you need it. It also doubles as a reasonable blocker against aggro decks. The fact that it absorbs one lightning bolt for free is huge, since painter is very vulnerable to it.

It's also worth mentioning that for a long time I used sword of light and shadow in the main to great effect. It completely ruins stoneforge/batterskull, and it turns all your weenies into a win condition in case you can't assemble your combo. You can win a reasonable number of games by simply casting magus of the moon on turn 1 and attacking with it 10 times.

Renato

02-13-2012, 06:56 AM

I made some tests in MTGO with Punishing Fire version. Surprisingly, to me, Punishing Fires helps more board control than stompy strategy, specially enabling Jaya-lock. The lack of a efficient beater difficult stompy strategy.

Other problem: the absence of fetchlands diminishes the Sensei efficiency. Perhaps the Punishing Fires version needs to up the lands count and includes 1-2 mountain and 1-2 fetches at a cost of Grove of the Burnwillows or City of Traitors.

DrewliusMaximus

02-16-2012, 10:48 PM

Imperial Painter is an amazingly fun deck to play, amppyou. The P Fires list is not normal. I posted a link to it because I think it's an interesting take on deck, with MD Ensnaring Bridges and a bunch of ways to win without the attack phase.

There's certainly no consensus optimized Imperial Painter list, mainly because there are just too few people that play it. That's actually one great reason to take IP to a big tournament - players are less prepared against it.

I don't think Revoker is a necessary MD card in all builds, but I have one because:

It locks out artifact and creature mana after a Moon.
It's good with Goblin Welders.
I don't play burn spells, so having a Recruitable answer to stuff like Hierarch and Pridemage is more important.

And yes, Spellskite is good (especially with Welders).

I first saw the deck when it top-8'd a Japanese tournament right after Shadowmoor came out. Since then, the three constants in all the variations I've seen are the core (Recruiter + Servant + Grindstone), the ability to play an early Moon effect like Dragon Stompy (Stompy mana + Moons), and a significant number of Red Blasts.

So the deck automatically hates hard on two of the most fundamental pillars of Legacy: nonbasic lands and the color blue. As a result, you can sometimes cakewalk through several rounds of a tournament.

I think that the deck's biggest weakness, aside from a few inherently bad matchups (heavy creature-removal and opposing red stuff in general), is inconsistency. The Stompy manabase, the dependence on synergy, etc. make Imperial Painter more vulnerable to variance than a deck with blue cantrips.

However, Tops smooth things over dramatically, and make Imperial Painter the most consistent "Stompy" deck I've ever played.

Anyway, this deck has paid itself off for me and then some. I recommend it for sure.

ChargedUp

02-18-2012, 11:46 PM

I have played with the gp amsterdam version of this deck for a while now and love it except for its inconsistency. I am toying with a list that is blue/red with snapcaster mages and blue cantrips such as brainstorm and ponder or preordain. Imperial recruiter can find the snapcaters and they can flashback cantrips, lighning bolts, or red elemental blasts/pyroblasts. I think it could make the deck much less inconsistent. Would love some input from everyone on how to flesh out the list especially the mana base. Thanks in advance

Malchar

02-19-2012, 02:31 AM

A list with snapcaster mage sounds tempting, but in practice I find that I always want to recruit for a painter's servant. I'd rather try using stoneforge since it can stabilize a field and you also get enlightened tutor.

ChargedUp

02-19-2012, 08:29 AM

I can definately see going into white instead. Enlightened tutor helps avoid all the blue cantrips and gives you exactly what you need to combo out. I also think swords to plowshares could be a great addition. But, stoneforge only finds equipment so it doesn't help combo out. I could see using lighning greaves to protect painter servant or batterskull to bring some blocking/lifegain. But, what equipment are you thinking would help our deck the most?

Grymer

02-19-2012, 03:21 PM

i wouldnt play imperial painter with stoneforge mystic.. i have tested and half the time you stall.. becus you cant get a white mana for your stoneforge becus of your own blood moon.. i can see an light splash for white for the E. totur would be awesome.. but i wouldnt splash for stoneforge or StP

sroncor1

02-19-2012, 04:22 PM

I haven't posted in ages but I figured I would add my two cents, even though with all that is going on in my life it may not be worth that much. Stoneforge was good in the deck like 5 plus months ago. When Merfolk and NO decks were played she was strong in that meta. Now with delver and more and more bolts/chain lightnings/and Fire/Ice running around I know longer love her. It is funny though that you can easily play the fetched equipment if you did not already play the Moon effect.

I haven't tested much but I do agree pretty much with most of the thoughts currently with the deck. I like E. tutor a lot more now as it speeds up the deck and adds consistency. I would def play 3 tops with 2 plus welders in any build. Spellskite is not a bad idea, but i can see that as a meta choice for sure. To be honest I like Koth more and more. As long as you run bolts and blast effects he fucks up most of the decks to beat. Some number between 2-3 in the 75 is probably correct, at least in my eyes.

Otherwise I think the maindeck really hasn't changed much with the exception Blood Moon is slightly better than Magus just bc of all the red removal and a 3/3 split or even 4/3 split favoring the enchantment may be best for your meta. I am hoping to play some at the Bmore Grand Prix, and hopefully an updated list with some reports. But I may flake out and play something with FoW, but I do love the short rounds.

I hope some of this helps.

Seth

DrewliusMaximus

02-19-2012, 05:56 PM

If you're trying for more consistency, I think 4 Tops should be in there. As long as you don't have two in your opening hand, you can usually avoid drawing more than you need. And having two isn't so bad, especially if you use Welders to turn them into a real draw engine.

Also, replacing SSG's and Chrome Moxen with Lotus Petals and more lands has worked well for me in the last several tournaments. It's a little less explosive, but has been fast enough and is much more forgiving (and feeds the Welder plan best). With more lands, I'm also playing 6 fetches to potentially assist the Tops.

The Petals do facilitate splashing more than SSG and Mox. I've tried splashing, and with the Stompy + Moon plan it always seems to have a significant chance of backfiring. The most successful splash I played was blue for 1 Trinket Mage, but even then, the increased vulnerability to Wasteland/Stifle decks and the occasional dead Trinket Mage after a Moon were enough to push me back into mono-red.

With good mulligan judgements, the more typical builds with SSG and Mox have proven capable of ripping through large parts of the meta. But right now I like being able to start more games with seven cards and still be able to play turn 1 Moons or Thorns, etc.

Malchar

02-19-2012, 11:12 PM

I didn't necessarily mean to advocate running stoneforge, I'm just saying it's an option to consider. Compared to snapcaster mage in a blue build, I think it's much more likely that you would want to recruit for a mystic and run a white build. I like how your random dudes like recruiters, spirit guides, and maguses can wear equipment. Chump blocking with imperial recruiter and then bringing it back with sword of light and shadow is a force to be reckoned with.

You probably want to cut the blood moons if you splash (any color), and then just use maguses if anything since at least they would be recruitable. I guess blood moon is tutorable with enlightened, so maybe it could go either way in a white build. One of the nice things is that you can still win with a white splash even if your white mana gets turned off. You only lose enlightened tutor (which is grindstones #5-8), and your utility cards: swords to plowshares, orim's chant, stoneforge mystic (if you choose to use any).

sroncor1

02-20-2012, 09:54 AM

@malchar- I'm sorry if it came off that way. I understood that you weren't pushing for it. But I was one of the first to suggest it and push for it and I just wanted people to know that I no longer feel Stoneforge is strong enough for the mana issues.

I am actually trying to build the deck without a splash these days as moon effects and a fast consistent combo seem much stronger than our weak aggro plan. With the fall of tribal decks and delver it seems really hard to use that angle anymore. Maybe others have had more success than me but I have had trouble going aggro these days. What do others think?

Seth

Rath

02-22-2012, 02:43 PM

I have had trouble going aggro these days. What do others think?

I can agree with that. The old aggro plan used to be with figure of destiny or Kargan dragonlord. Unfortunately, both are now generally outclassed or die too easily to the removal which is so prevalent these days. Basically, you used to play a moon effect and then beat down with kithkin / magus, using bolts to clear the way.

Now, we are basically a combo deck, with the possibility of aggro-ing out a victory under a moon lock. I used to also include a jitte or basilisk collar to support this strategy, but have kind of gone all in on the combo aspect now.

Establishing a lock is just more difficult now, and with re-animator running around in my area, I prefer to just combo them out.

Fade

02-22-2012, 05:09 PM

What about Instigator Gang for the aggro side of things?

Grymer

02-22-2012, 06:50 PM

imo

Koth and Batterskull > Instigator Gang

Becus Koth and Batterskull doesnt die to "normal" creature removel like the Instigator Gang does..

sroncor1

02-22-2012, 08:57 PM

Yeah I have to say that Koth is so strong right now. With or without moon effects he really gives the deck staying power. I guess he sort fills the aggro role but I feel he sort gives the deck reach and inevitability allowing you to grind it out. I don't think adding extra dorks to the deck is the answer. The problem is to maximize recruiter you sometimes use weaker creatures. One that I may be convinced would be Tauleren Mauler or Countryside Crusher. I haven't tried either of them but I do think they are stronger than mist people think.

I played for like 3 hours today and loved the deck again. I am still lazy and have kept the white splash with stoneforge moved to the board. I can't come up with a real reason why it should be there to be honestexcept maybe for burn and tribal but both of those are really bad now. And if I was going to run equipment I may not run jitte switching to SoLS.

Seth

DrewliusMaximus

02-22-2012, 11:06 PM

Batterskull seems like a really good aggro option on its own with a typical set of Imperial Painter creatures.

sroncor1

02-26-2012, 07:31 AM

I took 5th out of I think 66 at the grand prix side event yesterday. They didn't do a cut to top 8. I'll get a mini report up but since the event went to like two details may be sketchy as one round I didn't even realize it was game three as I had forgotten about game two. But overall I loved the deck and will post my most recent list, updated board, and some thoughts/strategy.

Seth

Zupponn

02-27-2012, 06:59 PM

Hi, I've been a Dragon Stompy player for about a year now, so I thought I'd try out Imperial Painter at the tournament my local shop had yesterday. Here's what I ran:

4x Painter's Servant
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Imperial Recruiter
3x Magus of the Moon
1x Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Goblin Welder
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Pyroblast
3x Red Elemental Blast
4x Grindstone
3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Chrome Mox
5x Mountain
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
3x Great Furnace
2x Arid Mesa

Sideboard:
4x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
1x Manic Vandal
1x Red Elemental Blast
1x Pyroblast
2x Pyroclasm
1x Spinal Villain
1x Fledgling Dragon

It's pretty much the same list that I found on the OP of this thread, except I misplaced my Koths, so I substituted Spinal Villain and Fledgling Dragon.

Round 1 - Dredge:
Game 1 - My opponent gets a slow start, while I get a Painter and a Top out early. I blast a Dread Return and the turn before he can kill me, I find a Grindstone, draw it with top, and mill him.
In: 2x Tormod's Crypt, 1x Nihil Spellbomb Out: 3x Lightning Bolt (I think)
Game 2 - I keep a bad hand that had a Tormod's Crypt. I probably took out his graveyard too early and then he kills me.
Game 3 - My opponent gets a really fast start and kills me a turn before I would have been able to get Jaya online with a Painter.
0-1 (1-2)

Round 2 - Storm:
Game 1 - He gets the nuts and Tendrils me to death.
In: 4x Thorn of Amethyst Out: 4x Lightning Bolt
Game 2 - I mull to 4, but stick a Thorn early, get the Painter Grindstone combo, and mill him.
Game 3 - He Duresses away my Thorn of Amethyst turn 1, then I proceed to draw 2 more and add a Magus of the Moon. I Blast his Echoing Truth and then he can't go off, so I proceed to kill him with a Painter and Magus.
1-1 (3-3)

Round 3 - Burn:
Game 1 - I get burned to death. Not much to say here.
In: 4x Thorn of Amethyst Out: 4x Blood Moon
Game 2 - I play 2 Painters who eat Bolts, then play a Simian Spirit Guide and start attacking with that and a Recruiter. Then I add a Magus and my opponent is stuck with 3 Price of Progresses in his hand and a Barbarian Ring on the field. I kill him with Guide and Recruiter after he burns Magus and hits me with Barbarian ring, thinking I was at 2 when I was at 3. He was also at 3 at this point, so he dies.
Game 3 - See Game 1.
1-2 (4-5)

Round 4 - GWB Rock:
Game 1 - I keep a sketchy one land hand and the land gets Vindicated. I'm slow to recover and he sticks a Stoneforge, Batterskull, and a Jitte. I proceed to die to them.
In: 1x Manic Vandal, 1x Phyrexian Metamorph, 1x Fledgling Dragon Out: 3x Blood Moon (I think)
Game 2 - I have a solid hand and play a Painter and a Metamorph copying it. He tries to deny my red by Vindicating my lone Mountain. He should have played a Pernicious Deed he had in his hand instead, because next turn I play a Grindstone and mill him.
Game 3 - We get to a situation where I have Top, Painter, and Grindstone out with another Grindstone on the top of my deck. He plays Vindicate on my Grindstone and passes the turn. I mill him.
2-2 (6-6)

Round 5 - UR Delver Burn:
Game 1 - He gets a Goblin Guide, a Delver, and a Grim Lavamancer out, but lacks enough removal to kill my Painter protected by 2 Blasts. I draw the Grindstone and mill him.
In: 2x Pyroclasm, 1x Spinal Villain Out: 3x Blood Moon
Game 2 - He gets 2 Goblin Guides out and a Grim Lavamancer. I block the Lavamancer with a Simian Spirit Guide and then trade Guides on the next turn. He adds another Lavamancer and then I Pyroclasm. Now he's out of gas, so I find the Painter Grindstone combo and mill him.
3-2 (8-6)

So, I ended up 12th of 27 people. I probably kept some hands I shouldn't have, but I think I played pretty solid magic overall and no big mistakes caused me to lose any games. I'm not sure if my sideboarding was correct, but I think I did okay with that. I had a good time and might play Imperial Painter again if I get a chance.

Malchar

02-28-2012, 12:27 AM

Stoneforge might help against burn because it's not that unreasonable to hardcast the batterskull on turn 3. Seems like burn and red/blue delver might become quite popular, which would be bad for imperial painter.

sroncor1

02-28-2012, 07:29 AM

I don't think hat delver lists are that bad for painter. Your removal is so strong against them. And they run so few basics that moon is also strong against them. I will say though that games 2 and 3 if you are on the draw I usually side out the moon for stoneforge package. They really can not beat it as you just start chaining imperial recruiters together to keep active equipment and they can not compete with the card advantage. Burn on the other hand just hurts.

I hope to have a mni report up soon from his weekend and the gp side event. In short I was one card away from winning a mox pearl and first place

Seth

Michael Keller

02-28-2012, 11:02 AM

sroncor1

02-28-2012, 09:54 PM

So I played in the GP win a mox side event. A few quick notes about the event. It started at 6 which sucked. Was 7 rounds, no cut just prizes for standings. the overall level of players was higher I think than that of the SCG series. And that little shit AJ that writes for Starcitygames, while being maybe 11 or 12 (or a stunted midget), is a true cocksucker and I was happy to watch him get his face smashed while he was trying to trash talk his opponent. End aside.

Deck]
4 imperial recruiters
4 painter's servent
4 Grindstone
3 SSG
3 Chrome Mox
4 REB
3 Magus of teh Moon
3 Blood Moon
3 Lightning bolt
3 SDT
1 Jaya
2 Koth
2 Welder
2 Pyroblast
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 arid mesa
3 Plateau
5 mountains

Board
3 Tormod's crypt
4 stoneforge
1 batterskull
1 jitte
1 lightning bolt
3 grim lavamancer
1 koth
1 something else

Round one against Hollywood playing dredge:
I won this round 2-1with a fast combo game one. Game two i got beat down by too many zombies to count. Game three I topped into a crypt and removed a strong graveyard and proceeded witha slow beat down of magus and SSG. I was lucky game three getting my hate and having the Magus slow Hollywood down enough for the 2/2 beats to get there. I boarded out the 2 maindeck Koth and SDT to bring in the Crypts

Round 2 against RUG delver:
Fast combo game 1 with Welder making his removal not count. game two he was able to ride a delver just long enough. I kept a loose hand, and he mulled down so I felt that the extra cards would carry me. I was wrong. Game three I won somehow although I can't remember. I boarded out the moon effects and brought in the Stoneforge package for games 2 and 3. Didnt cast the pieces but I feel like people know the Moon is coming so they fetch basics. On the draw it is not as strong and I would rather be able to provide another angle of attack in which I can overwhelm their artifact hate. Also delver decks have no true source of card advantage. With a piece of equipment, chaining recruiters will wear them down quickly as they can not keep up.

Round 3 Stoneblade
I lost this round on me making a mistake with SDT. I wanted the SSG but I drew a blast effect instead. When I went to go off I was one mana short of doing so with protection. Oh well I was tired and this guy would go on to take down the whole event.

Round 4 tendrils:
Game one saw my get the second turn kill and game two saw him get the second turn kill. Game threesaw him with a first turn thoughtsieze. He took the Painterand left me with a blast and a Magus. magus came down and I was able to keep him off blue long enough to beat face, assemble the combo and win. I still think he did the right thing taking the scarecrow as he had no answer to it once it resolved.

Round 5 RUG delver:
I don't remember mush but I did win 2-0. Game one was slow and I slowly beat his life total down by 2 then 4 then dead.

Round 6 Stoneblade:
Again it was 1 am by this point so details are hard to recall. I won 2-0 and in the second game I slow rolled the combo and finally once I had multiple pieces in play with protection I milled him for the win. In game two I remember removing the Moon package for the Stoneblade package. I tutored up the batterskull, but decided to keep going the combo route.

Round 7:
I lost to elves. The third game I had the Crypts to remove his Eldrazi, and was just digging for the grindstone. He cast the Spaghetti monster and my top card was Grindstone. Oh well

Over all I was very happy with the 60 in the main. I would love an additional Lightning Bolt, but not sure how. Otherwise I would not change a thing. The board needs work. I really think 7 graveyard hate is needed. i would go 4 crypt and 3 faerie macabre. Otherwise I like the 6 stoneforge package cards as I often like to go that way game two as you will catch them with their pants down and it fits in nicely in place of the moons. The other 2 cards could be anything from pyroblast, lightning bolt, artifact hate, spinal villain, or even stark of rath which I really like as answers to Sneak and Show decks. I only cast Koth once, but I would still play 2 in the 75. I didn't play the green black attrition decks, or draw him against Stoneblade. But he is so strong there I would not cut him yet. Overall this deck is in excellent position right now.

@Hollywood-I'm happy we played first as I can still remember that game. That last round I remember looking over at you and thinking I am so tired I have to be really fucking up. I didn't want to mull that last game again as I had the crypt and painter in my 6. I just couldn't get the grindstone in time.

Seth

Zupponn

02-29-2012, 05:55 PM

sroncor1

02-29-2012, 09:37 PM

Jitte works well, maybe a little better than batterskull but both are really strong. I would not worry to much about burn though. It is still a bad deck that had a lucky run. I have a hard time seeing it as a large part of the meta anymore. I use the stoneforge into batterskull and Jitte bc they have interactions in so many matchups. That an they are the best ways to beat Jitte and batterskull. But in general burn is a nightmare matchup really. There is no deck I want to play less than it for sure.

Seth

Grymer

03-01-2012, 04:26 AM

after i came home from GP Amsterdam i changed the 2 Koth in my sidebord for 2 batterskull.. (still keeping it mono red)

after som testing i found out that jitte was just better.. against burn..
its faster and if the burn player cant hold you from getting creatures online they just lose to it..
so right now i play 3 jitte in the 75 cards

rancOr_

03-01-2012, 04:57 AM

I see most of you play 3 SDT. Dont u want to play the 4th aswell? Its just so good in this deck I always want one. Played 3 first too but never looked back when playing 4. The effect of having multiple tops can almost be ignored as u still play some fetch/recruiter etc to shuffle them away. Grtz

sroncor1

03-01-2012, 08:16 AM

I think three SDT are the right number although I have never tested another number. i could see the argument for more especially with Welder, but we don't have as many shuffle effects as a bunch of other decks. 4 may give you too many dead draws. I sort of view it as Chrome Mox, you want one early and then never, so 3 gives those results. I know Drew has more experience with SDT, and he may be able to give a better answer.

The equipment used is variable, but I think some combination of Jitte and Batterskull should be used. For me I am looking at including a Sword of some sort, prob SLaS, as pro wight doesn't change the Painter strength and it can help in recurring our dudes in attrition wars. Don't forget that Batterskull will draw two burn spells against burn and while it is out it stops their dudes from attacking. Jitte is faster sometimes, but bc Batterskull doesn't need to be equipped makes it also strong. And you don't have to choose between life gain and killing dudes. Both are really strong and without Stoneforge I do not know I would build the board. Hope this helps.

Seth

Malchar

03-01-2012, 05:23 PM

What kind of impact would Jitte have on the Burn matchup out of the board?

My assumption was that batterskull is the strongest assuming that you can cast it because it doesn't die to a single lightning bolt. Jitte is still good, but if they continually bolt the equipped creature, you never get counters on it. Jitte might be better overall because it costs less, but I haven't tested either against burn. I don't really like using batterskull and jitte in the stoneforge package because there's so much overlap of the effects, but burn is very good against this deck, and if it continues to rise in popularity, it might be worth it to just run both.

Jitte is probably better than batterskull against non-burn decks because it hits those small annoying creatures like confidant, delver, and dryad arbor. Of course, those decks aren't nearly as threatening as burn.

sroncor1

03-01-2012, 09:09 PM

The strong thing about Batterskull is the fact that it is a threat. Jitte is a house but it isn't a threat by itself. That is important and that is why i like both of them. If I had to pick between the two when building the deck I am not sure which one I would go with. Although without Stoneforge my gut says Jitte. What do others think about this?

Seth

ChargedUp

03-05-2012, 06:19 PM

@sroncor1 Have you tried enlightened tutor in your red/white build? and if so, how did it perform for you?

P.S.

03-05-2012, 11:53 PM

I have been playing around with a Painter deck, however it is slower and plays more control-style than balls-to-the-wall speed. With Imperial Recruiter & Enlightened Tutor mainboard, I also run the old Fruity Pebbles Combo (Enduring Renewal & Goblin Bombardment). Recruiter can go get Painter or Shield Sphere. I'm still testing & tweaking but I do plan on running it at the Indy GP this weekend.

sroncor1

03-07-2012, 08:11 AM

@chargeup-I have tried Enlightened Tutor. It def makes the combo more consistent and some other options like Ensnaring Bridge. SDT def make the tutor better. Depending on your meta I could see dropping the Lightning Bolt for it. Or two Koth could go. That is where I would start. Hope this helps.

Seth

sroncor1

03-11-2012, 09:24 PM

So I just saw that there was an Imperial painter mirror of the SCG video feed. I am looking forward to their decks. Anyone on this board the guys who were playing.

Seth

wolfstorm

03-11-2012, 09:59 PM

So I just saw that there was an Imperial painter mirror of the SCG video feed. I am looking forward to their decks. Anyone on this board the guys who were playing.

Seth

Drew and I played a mirror at a scg 5k a while back, was there another?

Fade

03-11-2012, 10:01 PM

I don't know you was playing but I just came back from GP Indy with my second Mint English Imperial Recruiter. Half way there to playing this deck!

sroncor1

03-12-2012, 10:23 AM

I didn't know that, but very cool. No I meant yesterday. I had gotten home from work and wanted to see what the top 16 was and literally saw game 2 of the mirror. The commentators were terrible, as they did not have a grasp of the deck let alone how to play the mirror, and some of the deck choices I didn't love. It is hard to not judge, but since I could see both hands I will not assume the players made play errors. But since both had faithless looting I am going to test it out moving forward. I'll be keeping SDT, and probably cutting the 3 Lightning Bolts, and 2 Koth in the maindeck for 4 Faithless Looting and an addition pyroblast or Welder in the main. My updated sideboard would then be:
4 Stoneforge
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Fairie Macabre
2 Koth

Most likely I will be playing this next weekend and if so will try to provide a better report this time around.
Seth

Malchar

03-16-2012, 06:09 PM

I tried playing Michael Dye's list from the SCG Open in Dallas featuring 4x faithless looting, 3x goblin welder, and a wurmcoil engine. I replaced the simulacrum with a sensei's divining top. It seems better since you can still tap it to draw and then weld it away to get card advantage.

In retrospect, it might be better to have both simulacrum and top, since if you weld them together you get to shuffle and draw, or draw and look at the top 3. This way, you wouldn't have to use fetchland in a monored deck just for shuffling.

One wurmcoil seems good since it's so hard for the opponent to deal with, and it's insane with a welder. It's kind of bad that you can't recruit for the wurmcoil, but realistically I don't see myself wanting to do that anyway.

All of that aside, faithless looting was quite good. Being able to see so many more cards is quite good for the deck. You can also discard artifacts at will since you can weld them back later, but that seems like an undue risk. Discarding land, moxes, or other faithless lootings usually seems to be the best. Since faithless looting is just a net -1 card advantage, you really need a welder and one of the aforementioned card advantage generating artifacts to stay efficient in the midgame.

All this talk of card advantage makes me want to try a black splash for dark confidant and discard spells. Dark confidant is one of the few cards that I would actually want to recruit instead of painter.

sroncor1

03-17-2012, 09:13 AM

I also have liked the amount of cards I get to see in a game due to faithless looting and SDT. I have had difficulty getting a third welder in the deck as I have increased the blast effects to 7 since I cut lightning bolts.

I still can not get behind Wormcoil Engine. I tried it when I played a blue splash for Intuition and I never really liked it.

@Malchar- In what matchups is Wormcoil so strong? It seems like a card that if its in your opening without Faithless Looting it seems almost like starting with 6 cards. It still seems like it isnt strong enough for Sneak and Show, and too slow for combo elves and Dredge, and plays no role in the Combo match up. I guess he might be strong against Delver lists that are R/U or RUG. My only concern is that a good player will kill your welder immediately and waiting till six seems worst than Stoneforge into Batterskull, b/c once Batterskull revolves Delver lists are in trouble. I would love to hear your opinions on this as watching Dye play was painful on the SCG feed.

Seth

Malchar

03-17-2012, 04:29 PM

To be fair, I did not watch any of the live play, and I don't profess to know all that much about this build. Is it still possible to watch videos from the event? I'd like to check them out.

To me, it seems like wurmcoil is the monored equivalent of batterskull. They can always kill the welder or stoneforge before you sneak the bomb artifact into play, but that means less removal for your painter. It's not too unreasonable to hardcast the wurmcoil on turn 3 or 4, which is probably fast enough to help against u/r/x delver. It's also decent against burn if you can find it since they're basically forced to use a bolt on the welder. It's also a decent alternate route if you get into late game against any deck and no one has won yet.

Stoneforge has the advantage of automatically tutoring for the bomb artifact, and you get card advantage automatically. Wurmcoil is worse because you have to draw it cold and you still need to find a welder to get it into play efficiently. Wurmcoil is stronger if you actually go off with it, and you also get to stay monored. Since the deck already uses 8x sol-land, you're pretty vulnerable to wasteland. I don't know if it's better to just go all-in with nonbasics, or try to mitigate the damage where ever possible.

Overall, I don't see wurmcoil being a huge part of the strategy. Rather, it's just a semirandom 1x toss-in since it's the best possible card to go with welder. It's probably the weakest slot in the deck. The real innovation in my opinion is the use of 4x faithless looting with 3x welder. Since you frequently have dead cards like spirit guide and mox, faithless is essentially a "draw 2". With welder, you even have the option of discarding combo pieces without losing value, not to mention that welder was good in the deck before they printed faithless looting.