[Report] I'm an Idiot @ The Inquisitive 08/09/2008

[Curby]

As before (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10528), but with 35 players and 5 swiss rounds (without a top-X cut). It's pretty impressive that after losing half a dozen people to GP Denver, we've still got a crowd. Go Albuquerque Legacy meta!

I decided to give the discard deck another round. I couldn't find any Infests, and used the vastly inferior Echoing Decay instead.

My friend came with his homebrew green aggro deck. We had tested it the night before, and tightened it up a bit. As for me:

Curby's Slower Discard, With a Shitty Sideboard

18 Swamp (+1)
4 Dark Ritual

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Ostracize
0 Raven's Crime (-2)

4 The Rack
3 Tombstalker
3 Hypnotic Specter
3 Reanimate
3 Augur of Skulls
3 Nezumi Shortfang (+1)
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Side:
4 Engineered Plague
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Pithing Needle (-1)
2 Extirpate
0 Reanimate (-1)
0 Infest (Ugh)
2 Echoing Decay (+2)

Round 1 vs Br Janky Reanimator

Game 1: This is historically a bad matchup (at least game 1) but he's not working with an optimized deck and the Rack effects take it home.

Sided: -1 Ostracize, -3 Reanimate, +4 Leyline of the Void (In hindsight, I should have taken out a Duress. Since his reanimate effects are useless, the key is to get him to drop his critters so he can't hard-cast them. Idiot move #1.)

Game 2: I mull to 5 to find a Leyline, and he scoops. I convince him to try it out, and get careless, allowing him to cast a fattie off a Ritual. Idiot moves #2 to refuse the scoop, #3 to play like shit. I'm down to 11 when I win.

After the match, I show him that I have Reanimates too, and he tells me he doesn't have any. Ouch!

1-0, 2-0

Round 2 vs Scoop-guy playing Br Mix of Good Cards

This is the guy that concedes a lot, from Round 5 last time.

Game 1: Great, fast aggro. He's got Lavamancers, Bobs, Tops, Yixlid Jailers, Bolts, Terminates, etc. A Reanimated Bob takes me to 10 but gives me the tools to take him to 0.

Sided: +3 Engineered Plague (Bob, Lavamancer, Jailer are all */1 wizards), +2 Extirpate, -5 one-ofs

Game 2: How anti-climactic. My notes show me going from 20 to 12, with him staying at 20. Then it ends with a note "Jitte on Hippie," so I guess he scooped at 20.

It turned out that he had some wacky combo based around Draco as an additional win condition. *shrug*

2-0, 4-0

Round 3 vs my friend with homebrew green aggro

Ok, so I beat green aggro in Round 2 last time, so I know it's possible. And this deck is even less optimized cause he's working with a limited card set. All the same, it's green aggro, and I don't like that.

Game 1: I'm not nearly fast enough, and he's at 14 from Rack damage when i go from 11 to 3 in one attack. Ok, next game. Where are my Infests?

Sided: Here I make another series of idiot moves (#lots). First of all, I know he's got a decent contingent of Elves so I add +4 Plagues. The problem is he's got mostly */2 and bigger Elves, so a singleton Plague will do nothing and the chances of finding more than 1 before I die are pretty close to zero. Then because he has Regrowth I pull in two Extirpates to hopefully play tricks with the Artifact destruction I know he'll bring in. Then I add the Decays, hoping to kill his stuff. What do I take out? A smattering of one-ofs like before, except that I need the threats to tie up the ground game this time. Doh!

Game 2: He's got 3x Whirling Dervish, 3x Compost, and 4x Seal of Cleansing in the side, so I know this is going to hurt. He drops a top-decked Dervish, but I'm able to play Jitte. I'm planning on equipping and swinging in next turn and killing the then-2/2 Dervish, but he top-decks a Seal of Cleansing, and there goes my chances. He wins at 17 life with a growing, now-unstoppable clock.

My hope when piloting Discard at the Inquisitive is to lucksack out of the aggro-ridden initial rounds to compete with the control and combo decks that fill the upper tables. With a 2-1 record, I'm thrown back to the world of aggro rogue decks, which is exactly where I don't want to be.

2-1, 4-2

Round 4 vs BW Hybrid Mana Symbol Aggro

Game 1: My Thoughtseize reveals that he has a bunch of 4-drops (Blind Hunter, Ghost Council, Angel of Despair, etc.) and no acceleration, and I'm practically jumping with joy. He gets out a Mourning Thrull, but a Reanimated Ghost Council and Tombstalker kill the Thrull and its controller in short order.

Sided: Nothing.

Game 2: When the deck works, it works. Dark Ritual into Thoughtseize pulling Swords and Therapy nailing dual Edge of the Divinity (I burn for 1). Turn 2 Hymn to Tourach grab his other non-land cards. Turn 3 sees a Rack-Rat, and turn 4 sees a Tombstalker. He scoops at 14 life.

3-1, 6-2

Round 5 vs Mono-Black Control, a.k.a. I Laugh at Discard

And I thought fast aggro was my worst enemy.

Game 1: Two Phyrexian Arenas hit the field, giving him the land and Tendrils, Corrupts, and Consume Spirits he needs to laugh at Racks all day long.

Sided: +2 Extirpate, +2 Echoing Decay, -4 something

Game 2: Oh boy, oh boy, I'm going first and I have Extirpate and Duress in my hand! I Duress to find him without an Arena, and he topdecks and plays arena on his third turn. I battle valiantly but his deck shines off the topdeck, and doubly so when he outdraws me 2-1.

3-2, 6-4

Top 4 from Swiss

1st: 8-year-old playing Elves (round 2 last time (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=257364)) (5-0)
2nd: Gw land destruction (round 1 before (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10332)) (4-1)
3nd: BUW Swans control/combo (4-1)
4th: MBC from round 5 (4-1)

7th: me (3-2)
8th: my friend who slaughtered me in round 3 (3-2)

Lessons learned

Tonight I wrote down every card I saw, which helped with Therapy. I also wrote down creature types, which helped me decide whether or not to use Plague. Turns out some decks that don't look like tribal decks still are!

However, just because a deck has Tribal flavors doesn't mean Plague is the right card. Even if I had drawn it in round 3, it would have done nothing.

Playing a deck with a known-bad sideboard is as bad as it seems. Infest could have killed that Dervish and a host of other weenies!

Last time I noticed that I was mulling a lot due to manascrew. I added a land and it seemed to help a lot. Mr. Obvious states the obvious.

I still suck at sideboarding.

Augur is again underwhelming. The lost turn before discard is a very real problem, and despite the ability to wear Jitte like a pro, finding the mana to Equip and Regenerate is impossible in the early game.

Conclusion

I've now lost soundly to a combo deck (last week), a control deck, and an aggro deck. The combo and aggro losses I can attribute to poor play, unoptimized sideboards, and the like, but the control match shook me up. Good decks don't have silver bullets against them, and when they topdeck a Phyrexian Arena and win the game with it, you know there's a problem. Can these problems be solved without losing the flavor of the deck?:frown:

Let's say I have 3-4 Infests and 4 Plagues in the side and I'm paired against a fast aggro tribal deck. What do I take out? Often I might need to side in 12 cards, but I need both Discard and Threats to actually win the game after taking care of their creatures.

Thanks for reading!

[Getsickanddie]

Let me get this out of the way first, your meta looks like absolute garbage.


Game 2: He's got 3x Whirling Dervish, 3x Compost, and 4x Seal of Cleansing in the side, so I know this is going to hurt. He drops a top-decked Dervish, but I'm able to play Jitte. I'm planning on equipping and swinging in next turn and killing the then-2/2 Dervish, but he top-decks a Seal of Cleansing, and there goes my chances. He wins at 17 life with a growing, now-unstoppable clock.

Whirling Dervish? Seriously? That's fucking awesome. Except for the part where people play Whirling Dervish in their sideboard. That part is kinda pathetic. Also hilarious. But mostly pathetic.


1st: 8-year-old playing Elves

Is this some kind of joke? Are you making fun of someone, or did an 8 year old actually X-0 a 35 person legacy event with elves?

[TrialByFire]

x2 no offense I felt like I was reading a casual tourney report instead of an actual format. Somebody should have played TES and crapped on everyone.
Seriously. GW LAND DESTRUCTION!?!?! In the Top 4 of 35?

[freakish777]

GW LAND DESTRUCTION!?!?! In the Top 4 of 35?

I would imagine Terrageddon can still rock poor metagames. Why not here?

[Nihil Credo]

Also I wonder how the 3rd place guy was going off with Swans without red mana.

[jazzykat]

@Kirby: Don't feel so bad about the metagame we're in the same boat...Oh, how I love deed.

I see that the kiddies were up to no good.

Here's one concrete tip, before a game take out their reanimate spells. Chances are they are never going to cast their critters and if leyline doesn't show up you don't want to enable their combo by putting a guy in the yard.

[Curby]

@Kirby: Don't feel so bad about the metagame we're in the same boat...

I don't feel bad about the meta. It's casual and it's unrefined, but it shows a great deal of interest in the format. I'd rather celebrate that than laugh at it. For those of you still on your high horse: you won't have a format for long if you don't encourage new blood. At least the adepts showed maturity; thank you.

In defense of my friend, he's working with a very limited card pool. I get the feeling that some people have gotten so used to their cards that they expect everyone to have the same.


Here's one concrete tip, before a game take out their reanimate spells. Chances are they are never going to cast their critters and if leyline doesn't show up you don't want to enable their combo by putting a guy in the yard.

I think you mean that I should have them discard their reanimate spells during a game? That's what I learned... make them discard whatever creatures they might cast esp. if Leyline is active, and make them discard the enablers otherwise.

Re: Elves, yeah it's a low combo meta, and everyone was surprised he pulled it off. You should read Volt's dual land draft report if you don't think Elves can be competitive though. If it can top-8 a competitive event, it can certainly do well in a less refined one.

Re: Swans: I dunno how he did it, honestly. I didn't play him though I was hoping to.

[Jak]

Did the discard spells ever become dead? Like there hand was empty and they would just keep playing what they draw?

[Curby]

Did the discard spells ever become dead? Like there hand was empty and they would just keep playing what they draw?

This is a possible problem, especially against a mana-heavy deck like the last match where they can start to hold onto their land and cast whatever gas they topdeck. More guaranteed discard spells a'la Augur, Hymn, and Wrench Mind are good to finish the job after the good stuff is removed via Thoughtseize and company.

By targeting the 1- and 2-drops early on and moving up as their mana supply increases, you can generally prevent them from developing any serious board position by destroying their mana curve. This strategy also punishes those who gamble with 1-land hands. At the same time you're playing out your own threats, so by the time they're topdecking the game should be sealed if not over. With 7 Rack effects in the deck, their topdecking mode may make some of your cards useless but it will also cause them a ton of hurt. Late-game Duress/Ostracize are still useful to peek into whatever they may be holding, and to build up the yard for Tombstalker.

The deck is really awesome when it works, and it can work well against any major deck archetype, but its complete vulnerability to certain resolved permanents keeps single-minded hand control (and indeed all single-minded decks) from being more effective.

Regarding the effectiveness based on meta, I never even faced a Chalice@1, which would destroy me instantly. On the other hand, it's less likely that I'd see Whirling Dervishes or Phyrexian Arenas in a more serious Legacy meta, so those rounds might have been wins.

[jazzykat]

@kirby: That is what I meant, make them discard their combo enablers when playing against reanimator. Ostracize would be OK to hit a putrid imp but I think it is more of a liability considering you may put Akroma in the yard or something.

@all: The Abq meta is confusing and unique. I sometimes actually have trouble playing tier 1 and solid tier 2 decks against it because they "don't curve right" so chalice at 1 is often dead, trinisphere is remarkably less effective than you think and top/counterbalance doesn't work that good either. Wasteland is remarkably dead as well! High end decks are often tuned against other high end decks and sometimes are actually too narrow. I've been having a lot of success with pernicious deed based decks because deed just kills everything, whether it be an elf or a Tarmogoyf. No matter what though the fact that it drew 35 players and first prize was only 3 packs shows a lot of interest in the format!

[Skeggi]

Is this some kind of joke? Are you making fun of someone, or did an 8 year old actually X-0 a 35 person legacy event with elves?

I can only applaud this! The kid with the elves pwns 34 guys, haha, I wouldn't think it was possible. It's a lovely surprize :)

Nice to see a meta without Thresh and Landstill, I might move over there :tongue:

[freakish777]

Also I wonder how the 3rd place guy was going off with Swans without red mana.


I'm also interested in this. Do you have a list? Even just what the card he's using to combo with Swans without using Chain of Plasma.


Some comments on your list:

1) I'm guessing money is a factor. Even so, you should try to pick up some Nantuko Shades (I would put them in over Auger of Skulls). They let you race in damage against a deck like MBC after you try to take out their creature destruction from their hand.

2) I would run Sensei's Divining Top over Ostracize. Ostracize in general is really weak after turn 2 or so, and your game plan should be taking you to turn 6 or 7 consistently. Why not let them waste their mana playing their guy and then just kill it with Jitte counters, Smother, or Edict.

3) I would try to fit in Smother/Diabolic Edict.

4) 17 Discard Spells + Augers + Specters seems to be too many (hence, I'd want something else over Ostracize, and Shade over the Augers).

[Curby]

I'm also interested in this. Do you have a list? Even just what the card he's using to combo with Swans without using Chain of Plasma.

Some comments on your list:

1) Nantuko Shades over Auger of Skulls

2) Sensei's Divining Top over Ostracize

3) Smother/Diabolic Edict.

I'll try to find out what his combo was if I see him this week. (It's gonna suck when I find out he was in fact playing Red, but I really thought it was BUW.)

Your suggestions ultimately lead the deck in the direction of Mono Black Aggro/Suicide Black, which is almost certainly the better deck. I am in fact trying to build a suicide black deck, but I'd like to keep that effort separate from this deck, which I'm trying to keep a pure discard strategy. The point of this deck is to see how good discard strategies can be in Legacy. Hope that makes sense.

With that in mind...

1) I've said both weeks that Augur of Skulls is weak, and it really is. It's a tiny creature that has a delayed effect, meaning it can be Smothered/Swordsed/etc. before it can cause a discard (though I can generally expect to pluck those from their hand). I used it because it can Regen to chump a Goyf and it can swing in wielding a Jitte. However, those two don't go very well together, as It is difficult to find 4 mana in early turns for Equip+Regen, assuming I've used my Dark Rituals for doing earlier brokenness. Augur is very versatile, but it doesn't do anything very well.

Unfortunately, I don't think Nantuko Shade would work very well in the last match. He had random jank like the dudes that tap guys, Royal Assassins, and plenty of Drain Life effects and the mana to back them up. In general, Shades love mana and this deck is light on it. It can only run Tombstalker because it throws so much into the yard, effectively making it cost BB.

In a previous version of the deck, the Augurs were more Therapies, Duresses, and Ostracizes. Augurs were added as more critters to hold Jittes.

2) Without a shuffling outlet and without Bobs, I'm not sure that Tops would help much. Eventually you've seen the top 3 cards and you can't replace them. Speaking of that, perhaps Bob is a possibility.

Ostracize does seem like a weak play, but it turns out to be very good. Dark Rit/Ostracize/Reanimate on Goyf is awesome, but I'd gladly pull a Birds to slow them down (see above on the importance of wrecking their curve), an Exalted Angel that might smash my face for 4 as early as turn 2, etc. We all know that a vast majority of decks in Legacy run creatures, and be it bombs like Goyf or enablers like Lackey, plucking out a key creature can and does win games. The fact that we run Reanimate makes it even better.

3) I tried that, but it doesn't really work very well. Comparing <removal spell> to Ostracize, there are two competing elements here. If we let them play it, they use up mana for a turn which is good, but they might in turn have creatures that sidestep our removal. I was playing a deck where he had Chameleon Colossus, Goyf, Troll Ascetic, etc. Smother could have hit Goyf but little else. Sure that was a Type 2-ish deck but it shows that proactive cards are better than answers, until we truly have a cheap universal removal spell. Edict/Smother/Shriekmaw/Unmake/Terror all have their uses in decks that have other options for dealing with creatures, but we need something that hits absolutely anything by itself, because we're replacing a card (Ostracize) that DOES hit everything.

Thanks for the suggestions, though. I welcome more ideas for improving the discard archetype without turning it into something else entirely like mono-black aggro.

[jazzykat]

Well if you are dead set on continuing to use this thing:

I would suggest looking at a white splash for gerard's verdict, vindicate/swords.

Hypnotic spector should probably be a 4 of.

I don't care how much you like ostracize I think you should cut them and here's why.
Between thoughtseize and duress your cabal therapies should be doing double duty if you decide to sac a creature and ostracize off the top is most likely worse than any of the other discard which you could at least try to knock out a counterspell, Armageddon etc.

Except for tombstalker, jitte, and possibly reanimate i think you need to seriously ask yourself why you are running less than 4 of something.

I am not sure if you have ever seen a meddling mage in abq, so I don't know any reason why you wouldn't run 4 of a superior card.

The bottom line is this: This is Legacy, going 1:1 or even 2:1 if it buys you tempo or keeps you from losing is OK but I can't see the deck winning that quickly unless you power out an early tombstalker. That said you have to either make their cards dead (you sort of do that by stripping cards out of their hand in front of the mana curve), or make yours generate real or virtual card advantage.

While I believe you cream combo there isn't really that much in our metagame and it's not terribly good except for maybe the belcher deck. The problem that you have already acknowledged is that all of your discard topdecks become mostly dead to your opponents top decks because they are most likely going to be able to play them.


I really hope you don't take this the wrong way because you are a good player with a good card pool to draw from but if you really want to win I wouldn't play such a dedicated discard strategy.

[Galroth]

At the risk of coming off as an ass, many of you have no clue what you're talking about when it comes to a dedicated discard deck. The principles that normally apply to discard cards when used as a supplemental disruption strategy are not the same as those which apply to a deck built around the mechanic.

Lesson and point: Ostracize is superior to Duress. In a discard deck the primary concern is what permanents your opponent can lay down on the board. It is a given that your opponent will not have a hand by approximately turn 4-5 - again discard effects aren't being used to pick one or two key spells out of their hand to create virtual card advantage. It's eliminating the entirety of the opponents hand. How you reach this point is fundamental to your success. The first couple of turns Discard must mitigate whatever threats the opponent can lay on to the table. Quite simply put, Ostracize is more effective in this role that Duress. There are very few cards played on turns 1 and 2 where Duress would be the better early play. In fact, I can name them: Chalice of the Void, Phyrexian Arena... notably these are spells which would require acceleration to be played turns 1 and 2 respectively. Standstill should almost be included, but decks running Standstill are traditionally excellent match-ups, with the Pernicious Deed variants being the hardest.

Top-decking an Ostracize is quite likely your worst play, but it's little better than Duress for the following reason. Post turn 4 when both players are in top-deck mode ANY discard effect is unlikely to have much influence on your opponent's hand. Your discard spells are sorcery speed, and the opponent will play whatever they draw immediately. Land is an exception to this as often times players will hold land back to try to prevent damage from rack effects. Counterspells are also an exception to this, and the one instance where I could foresee Duress being the better card. If you're having problems with any sort of blue based control, there are some serious issues you need to take up with God.

Next topic: Why run 3x Hypnotic Specter? Unlike black aggro decks where Hypnotic Specter serves as disruption, in discard he rarely serves this purpose. Specter often comes online too slow to do anything more than ensure their hand size stays at zero. Even when you have a Specter and Ritual in opening hand, the correct play is usually not to fuel out a turn 1 Specter. It's more important to control what hits the board first, and Specters random discard effect does not do this. A turn 1 thoughtseize, followed by a turn 2 therapy and ritual/specter is the correct play. This gives you the chance to take out any of their early threats and/or make your opponent discard any removal that would have otherwise dealt with your ritualed specter. Specter is one of your least effective threats and makes its way into discard on the back of serving double duty as both a discard mechanic and a threat. While a solid play, you never want to see specter as a 2 of in your opening hand. It clogs up the first few critical turns where other cards are necesarry.

As to the white splash... every color has been tried and white is IMHO (not so humble I guess) undoubtedly the worst splash. If you splash white you need to immediately put in Shade and Confidant... then guess what deck you're running. It's not a dedicated discard deck for one.

Kirby covered some of the other points quite well. Like why Sensei's Diving Top isn't used, and why Smother/Edict are not included. A quick follow-up on the lack of removal. Discard does run something akin to removal: preemtive discard effects. The reason additional removal spells aren't included is because you cannot reliably find removal when it's needed without some sort of search or sift mechanic. Dark Confidant, Top, Fetchlands, and some removal were tried. This was quickly found to be suboptimal and/or it degenerated into black-aggro.

@ Kirby - I pretty much came to the same place as you did when finding out Augur of Skulls was really underwhelming. It helps out in the control match by going 2 for 1. But it's really too slow against good combo decks, and just isn't good enough against fast aggro. I guess you already know my opinion on the matter: hope you get a chance to test it out. If you're going to stick with Jitte, you might try Bitterblossom over Augur of Skulls. It's still an equippable target and doesn't conflict with your other creatures like Skittering Skirge would. Nantuko Shade is also a decent option. The drawbacks are that it's not an early play and you'll probably never cast it before turn 4. So it doesn't influence the first few critical turns. On the other hand it is a great finisher. Personally I'm in love with Skirge :)

Because many of these topics have already been covered - for reference:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5507

Late note: I was kind of surprised about the Mono-black Control match. Admittedly I've only played a few games against MBC, and it wasn't a refined list so it was an easy sweep. I think the key is more early pressure. Cards like Bitterblossom, Skittering Skirge, and Nantuko Shade should shore up this match a little. I think you just got a little unlucky though.

[jazzykat]

@Galroth: You are right, I don't understand how to play a pure discard strategy because I learned long ago that it to the best of my knowledge will never get you in the top 8. Feel free to point out sizable tournaments in strong metagames to disprove me.


Here are a few baffling questions:

Without removal, what is your plan to deal with a resolved tarmogoyf or Mystic Enforcer? Put enought creatures in the way, or draw a jitte and pray you have enough counters, or fly over with tombstalker...?

Once you are both in topdeck mode, and ~1/3 of the cards in your deck are dead (not counting land which you can use...so that means ~2/3 of your deck is irrellevant) do you really think you are going to win that battle?

When at best all of your cards go 1:1 how do you plan to beat cards like: LfTL, pernicious deed, FoF, Standstill, Wrath of God, Damnation,Counter/Top etc. when you don't even disrupt the manabase?

In a one sentence question: Why should anyone play dedicated discard besides it's fun?

Although, I do agree I have no clue about pure discard strategies I was trying to get him to migrate to something like homebrew or Eva Green which can do well.

[Captain_Morgan]

Ostracize=discard

Ostracize=! good card

Terror is more effective or Snuff Out or any other of the several black creature kill options.

I'd use this analogy as well:

Ostracize you need to nail it your hand, however he can just play another creature altogether. However with Terror you put a down payment of 1B for countering an early turn play and locking out his mana plus the same card advantage as before.

I don't see any Megrims or whatever, so your dpt is only through creatures. Black is a strong colour, but to be honest you do have several odd choices that isn't helping that's been mentioned before.

A) Upgrade your counts to 4's, it makes for consistency for the good stuff
B) Drop Ostracize for real removal, countering mana usage+ critter=win>happenstance with creatures in hand. Ostracize doesn't counter a draw phase into a creature then ability to play said creature that resolves in the same turn. Without targeted removal you're shooting yourself in the foot.