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thefreakaccident
08-17-2008, 03:17 AM
This thread will discuss the FAERIES aggro-control archtype, and all variants therein.

The faerie tribe, while relatively new, has been dominating both block and standard, and is slowly pushing out NLB (and other levels of blue) in extended, which has always been a reasonably strong metgame choice there for a long time.

It has even been seeing a very moderate amount of play in legacy.

Why play them over any other already proven decks in the metagame?

To even begin to address these questions, I will have to give a sample decklist, explanations on chosen cards, and MU analyses.


Here is my current list of Ub faeries:

creatures//14
4 spellstutter sprite
4 scion of oona
2 sower of temptation
3 mistbind clique


spells//24
3 spell snare
4 ancestral vision
4 force of will
4 brainstorm
4 smother
4 bitterblossom
2 fact or fiction


lands//22
4 mutavault
4 underground sea
2 faerie conclave
4 polluted delta
3 flooded strand
1 swamp
4 island

sideboard//
4 extirpate
4 engineered plague
2 hydroblast
2 blue elemental blast
3 engineered explosives (ub don't have many ways of dealing with artifacts/enchantments)









EDIT:

The most recent list, based off of Nassif's Grand Prix winning deck:

lands//20
3 mutavault
4 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
4 tundra
4 underground sea
2 island

creatures//12
2 sower of temptation
2 vendilion clique
4 spellstutter sprite
4 dark confidant

spells//28
4 swords to plowshares
2 vedalken shackles
3 bitterblossom

4 brainstorm
2 ponder
3 sensei's divining top

3 counterbalance
3 daze
4 force of will


sideboard//
4 scion of oona
4 engineered plague
4 staff of progenitus
3 disenchant




I will start the individual card explanations once I have made my observations clearer to the readers of this primer, so as to further shed light on many of my choices at once.

In my metagame (and many of yours, I feel it is safe to assume), most decks try to win the game of magical cards through turning creature cards sideways until their opponents life reach 0. It also seems that none of these current decks run more than 11 creatures, and usually play between 3 and 7 'spot' removal cards to take care of the opposing creatures. Hell, common decks featuring the word 'aggro', such as aggro loam still fall into this range with a usual count of 11 creatures.

Cards like bitterblossom, and sower of temptation therefore gain strength where they did not have strength previously, while doubling as both threats, and a way to deal with these low counts of creatures (it is surprising how taking control of one tarmogoyf can change a game so much some times).

It has also grown apparent that aside from a few random creatures still floating around in the format currently, most relevant ones are between 1 and 2 mana, ranging from CA enablers, to sources of utility, and most importantly beatsticks.


My card explanations as promised:

spellstutter sprite: most decks nowadays either cap our at 3 or four manacosted spells, this card is usually a hard counter throughout most games, while also being able to absorb 4-5 from a goyf swing later, or turning sideways when in a favorable position to do so, auto 4 of.

scion of oona: The card looks terrible, but with 24 faeries in the deck, randomly being able to give one of them shroud before a removal spell, and being able to perform battle tricks/push that little extra bit of damage through is key to the overall success of the deck, auto 4 of.

sower of temptation: slow, but I believe him to be worth it, as he has won games for this deck that would have otherwise been lost so many times, I cannot even count them. Without this and snare, this deck would have no hope against aggro-loam in game one, being able to deal with their few fatties and counter the Ddreams is key to the MU, 2 of because it is dead in some MUs and is a 4 drop.

mistbind clique: best card in the deck so far, being able to timewalk opponents, and save creatures from lethal combat damage has been very strong in testing/experience. He ends the game in 5 turns without scion, and 4 turns with scion (in which case they would need 2 spot removal spells, and for you not to have countermagic), the card is good, but clunky in the early game, so you only want 3 in the deck (would play more if he was cheaper).


ancestral vision: The deck doesn't have an overwhelming amount of first turn plays, this card lets us retool when we need it, without having to put in a lot of investment into it in the early/midgame, I feel it to be good enough to fill 4 slots.

smother: kills all relevant creatures in the current environment, auto 4 of.

force of will: Derf, 4 of.

bitterblossom: in some MUs it says, pay one life to keep your goyf from killing me right now, in others it says, I will swarm you, and you cannot do anything to me preboard hahahahaha, auto 4 of.

brainstorm: DERF (big derf), auto 4 of.

spell snare: counters most scary cards, and at worst keeps decks from curving out properly, a 3 of, because it is good, but not a 4 of.

fact or fiction: Lets the deck feel retarded, as you essentially have the same amount of draw as landstill, while maintaining an aggressive feel, a 2 of because it rounds out the draw suite of the deck overall.


The sideboard is a generic throw together for the opening post, obviously play what you prefer for whatever you will be playing against in your environment.


My Match up analysis for the varying match ups will primarily be strategy, and sideboard options.


Threshold: (all versions, as they will generally bring in the same cards postboard, and have the same amount of relevant cards, although red has more backbreaking sideboard options)...


The goal here is to set up a late game card advantage plan to help stitch together a control plan, keeping counterbalance off the table helps here, but it is by no means the end of the world if it does resolve, it just takes a lot more patience and well timed aggression to help pull you through.

Postboard I don't usually bring in anything, you could conceivably bring in explosives, but most of your cards are better in this MU than explosives, so I usually do not bother. Red gains both clasm and rebs, which are pretty solid against this deck (well, it hits 10 of our 22 threats).


Cunningstill: This MU is about well timed aggression, you are able to play around wrath and the such with your speedy little guys (by speedy I mean instant speed). Mistbind shines in this MU, as well as your amount of draw, which is their true bane, they cannot stand decks that draw more cards than them, cards like sower and smother come out for some extirpates and possibly some explosives.


Aggro loam: Your goal is to kill/steal their early threat, and counter dreams/assault, if this plan fails, then you are shit out of luck, bitterblossom can chump 8/11 of their crits, but vore tramples, so he needs to stay off their side of the board... postboard Faeries gains some key cards such as extirpate and bebs, which help a lot against them.


Ichorid: just scoop G1, and hope to win through well timed explosives/pates, and early plagues... you can use countermagic to slow them down several turns to help with this goal, but it is by far your worst MU you could ask for.


Goblins: Goblins have a history of giving control decks hard times due to their resilience to hate and quick clock, this is no exception... postboard you have a lot to bring in, and with some very tight play in game one, you can win, it is kind of funny that this is the only MU where drivers' pro blue actually matters, as they can tutor for an unblockable dude.

Your plan is to counter key cards like warcheif and driver, and try to gain board advantage with bitterblossom and scion... it is also worth note that mistbind is huge in this MU, as he can be great in the damage race, and buy you a whole turn (usually).


I have not playtested against TES/FT as of yet with this build, however, I am the only person that ever plays combo decks in my meta, so I do not need worry about those MUs, although I think it would be safe to assume that 11 counters, and SB can be pretty solid against those two decks, the lack of CB does actually hurt here.




Finally, cards that did not make the cut:


Thoguthseize/daze: The deck has a plan to go to the mid game, where both of these cards start to loose their luster, Faeries plays neither manadenial or tarmogoyf, meaning that tempo based disruption spells such as these are not too good for this decks' overall strategy, as you would like to hit a minimum 4 lands by turn 5.

Counterbalance: the CC range is all over the place, with 7 4cc cards, 4 3cc, and 22 lands, this card would actually be terrible in the current build. The card is good, but not in a deck such as this.

Tarmogoyf: a splash is not worth it, he is not in the decks' tribe, and he does not help the current direction this deck would like to take.

Vedalken shackles: This list does not run the necessary amount pf islands, and most decks do not try to swarm any more, so it just gets worse, as it can rarely take a goyf, or other scary creatures.


So, back to those questions that I posted at the beginning of this 'primer' :


What do faeries bring to the table?

These little blue guys allow a dedicated control deck to run a quick and solid clock without loosing any of its' control elements.


Why play them over already proven archtypes?

They have access to tricks that other decks in the format hate to see, they can hold their ground against most decks, as they are versatile and resilient.


The way I see it, they are dominating the two formats that include some of the best players in the world currently, and will soon gain more popularity in extended... I can see no reason why they can't at least be slightly competitive in our format.

I will edit the next post with more formal MU analysis later, when I feel like getting enough time to get full numbers against these decks. I have played quite a few games against them, but not as many as I would like to actually draw numbers from, just general analysis.

thefreakaccident
08-17-2008, 03:17 AM
*reserved*

Clark Kant
08-17-2008, 03:35 AM
IMO, Sower is the best fairie in the game. I think you should play more than 2.

I don't think this deck has earned the right to be called established yet. The build looks cool though.

thefreakaccident
08-17-2008, 03:40 AM
I agree with your sentiments about sower being good, but it is a sorcery-speed 4cc 2/2... I just never wanted more than one in a game, as that is all you really need.


The faeries archtype itself has put up a few accomplishments already, and I think it is competitive enough to possibly further those accomplishments.

I am glad the first post here was a positive one.

EDIT: I would like to keep this thread here, as it has the potential, and I have taken a lot of time testing, and my numbers will be here soon.

Bahamuth
08-17-2008, 05:24 AM
I don't really see why you are running Ancestral Visions, apart from it being in the T2 lists. That shouldn't be an argument, especially not in a format where we have better cards to search for. Why aren't you playing 4 Ponder if you don't have that many turn 1 drops? It seems way better. In this deck, it's especially better against combo, but I think it wil also improve your aggro matchup.

I also belive Sower should be at least a 3-off. The card is very strong with Scion and that combination can easily win games against Aggro-Control strategy's.

Why isn't Daze in this deck? Do you play it as an aggro-control deck or as a control deck?

Rush
08-17-2008, 05:58 AM
You completely excluded the most commonly used Faerie in the format, and the best tempo creature in the game: Cloud of Faeries. Include it or else!

EDIT: You need more Duress/Thought Seize, if you're running black. I agree with Bahamuth that Ponder should replace Visions. Finally, 6 fetch lands should be enough. If you run more, you'll find that last fetch land will screw you out of random games down the line (not too often, but often enough that 6 is the normal choice). You will find that one game where you need that last mana, you draw that card, and you lose because you've paid too much life for the fetch lands. Have you tried taking out a Smother for another Sower? It may cost more, but gaining control of your opponent's creatures trumps killing them. One last note, Mutavault does benefits from the tribal aspects of the deck, but Factories make better chump blockers for the format, so you may want to give them a try. Other than that, I like the deck.

YuanTi
08-17-2008, 07:28 AM
Your Decklist is a long way away from the lists which have actually been performing. The lists which have actually been making Top 8s are in themselves very varied.

Looking on Deckcheck, and these two (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8090) threads (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2587), and cutting all tournaments with under 33 players, we see these 3 lists:

http://www.deckcheck.net//deck.php?id=16703
http://www.deckcheck.net//deck.php?id=14511
http://www.deckcheck.net//deck.php?id=18565

The third list doesn\'t really follow a Faerie strategy at all, it\'s looks more like a very strange Threshold build, with Bitterblossom and Spellstutters. The second list is actually tribal based, but is UW, and runs equipment, and faster faeries, and is a long way from what your list tries to do. The first list is closest to your list, but has a large number of differences. Without any consistant results to really back it up, I don\'t think Faeries deserves an Established spot at the moment.

On the list:

Mistbind Clique is bad. If they keep Faeries off the board, he sits in your hand uselessly. If they are holding a removal spell they can turn it into a 2 for 1 trade. And even if they don\'t, its a 4/4 for 4. This has not shown itself to be good enough for the format before, and Clique has nothing going for it.

Ancestral Visions is awful. It\'s slow, and mediocre at best in the early game. In Standard you can afford to wait 3 turns for your cards. In Legacy, many decks will have taken a lot of advantage by this point, and you\'ll be fighting to get into the game. Its also a terrible topdeck when you need something now.

You are worse than Tarmogoyf. Tarmogoyf does the same thing as the creatures in your deck, and does not rely on Tribal Synergies as he does so. Bitterblossom, which seems to be the card you rely on as a 2cc winner, will often be relegated to the production of chump blockers, Sower of Temptation deals with Tarmogoyf, but every deck you are likely to see will have counters or burn for it. Where your faeries take 6+ Swings in order to win the game, Tarmogoyf will do it in 4, and not pack it to Burn or Pyroclasm. You also say you want to go to the midgame, but were some cards swapped, you could be on Threshold, and would win the game faster.

Lack of Thoughtseize: Whether or not you want to go to the midgame, Thoughtseize grabs threats which are otherwise must counters.

Your Curve is poor: You pretty much said this yourself.

Peter_Rotten
08-17-2008, 07:49 AM
This deck(s) seem to be right on the cusp of being an established deck in Legacy; however, the deck lists still vary greatly and its performance has been a little spotty. Let's leave it in N&D for now.

Clark Kant
08-17-2008, 10:24 AM
The current list basically looks like a UB block fairies list with Force, Brainstorm and FoF thrown in.

That doesn't cut it in legacy imho.

If you want to compete in legacy, you actually have to play cards that are catered to this format specifically (Chalice of the Void, two mana lands etc).

Why not play "Fairie Stompy" but supplement it's creature base with these guys?

All of the fairies (even Pestermite) have 2 colorless in the casting cost so the deck fits the manabase perfectly.

You end up being a lot faster too.

There really is zero advantage to be had keeping around a standard manabase.

Bitterblossom and Scion of Oona honestly seems to be the weakest cards in the deck, so why not cut them for stuff like Pestermite, Cloud of Fairies and more Sowers (all of which were good enough to make traditional Fairie Stompy lists).

And decreasing the depending on Fairies, you can then freely play Mulldrifter and Trinket Mage, and maybe Sea Drake too, basically make this a more creature heavy version of Fairie Stompy.

Here is a quick and dirty list...

The REAL Fairie Stompy

Artifacts
4 Chalice Of The Void
4 Chrome Mox
1 Pithing Needle
3 Sword Of Fire And Ice
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Creatures
4 Sea Drake
4 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Serendib Efreet
3 Cloud Of Faeries
3 Sower of Temptation
2 Mistbind Clique
2 Pestermite
2 Mulldrifter
2 Trinket Mage

Instants
4 Force Of Will

Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City Of Traitors
8 Island
1 Seat Of The Synod

Sideboard
4 Weatherseed Fairies

thefreakaccident
08-17-2008, 02:47 PM
Unfortunately, I did see this coming, and I will have to adress these problems.

Using the deckcheck function does not make you seem awesome, I myself looked and did not find the lists there worth my time, the fact that you posted them means nothing.


The cards individually are weak in this format, much like in countersliver (very rough comparison, don't take it too far), the cards gain strength through eachother, scion ---> every faerie has shroud/pump ----> bitterblossom now a threat -----> mistbind has a nice flow of thins the champion ------> spellstutter counters everything in the format.



Ancestral vision really isn't all that bad here, as the deck needs CA draw spells, not cantrips, which is where those would preside anyways.


I cannot stress this enough, just because thoughtseize has a little faerie on it, does not mean it belongs in the legacy version, If I were to make the deck less controlling, and more agro, then sure, but thoughtseize is not good in a more controlling frame, such as this one.


Hopefully, you guys can get over the list, and actually start some discussion, as you may not like my personal list, but the faerie tribe definitely has potential to compete in the future.


FAERIE stompy, funny, I thought of that too, pestermite is terrible, sower is like the only additional card that is any good in that frame, and it is a turn slower than most of your cards, why steal their creatures when you can race?


On that note, besides despising my opening post, does anyone have anything worth while to post, or just more senseless dribble?


EDIT: @ Yuanti--

Ah yes, Tarmogoyf.... How can I put this simple enough? Oh yeah! This is a tribal deck, and we run 11 countermagic in the MD, as well as 6 removal spells... Racing a tarmgoyf is not all that difficult in the mid-game, and only 2 decks in the format run burn anymore (burn and red threshold, and a lesser extent imperial painter with 4 bolt)... I am not saying that he is not bigger than these creatures, I am just saying that he does not have flying, and we have relevant removal....

Also, every creature currently is worse than tarmogoyf, except for dreadnought who needs a two card investment, and is slightly more vulnerable than the goyf.

Clark Kant
08-17-2008, 03:38 PM
FAERIE stompy, funny, I thought of that too, pestermite is terrible, sower is like the only additional card that is any good in that frame, and it is a turn slower than most of your cards, why steal their creatures when you can race?

Simply put. Chalice is the best disruption a deck could ask for in legacy. It singlehandedly cripples thresh, and most legacy decks by itself.

City of Traitors/Ancient Tomb/Chrome Mox are the best acceleration that any legacy deck could ever ask for.

To run neither of them, in a deck that could easily support them strikes me as a very bad idea.

thefreakaccident
08-17-2008, 04:18 PM
I wasn't dissing faerie stompy, it is a very good deck.

It is just better the way it is, and the fearies that we would be trying to fit into its' shell would be too weak to do the job the deck requires from its' creatures.

The only true faerie creatures that can be fit into that deck are sower and cloud, pestermite and mistbind wouldn't be able to get the job done (mistbind would need another faerie, and pest will not do much)...

That is what I was saying, didn't mean to come off that way.

Clark Kant
08-17-2008, 04:49 PM
My point is, why not change your manabase, and noncreature spell base to give the deck the strengths that Fairie Stompy has. Chalice is bomb. Being able to drop all of your threats on turn one rather than on turn three is awesome. And Equipment is just as strong on these guys as it is on Sea Drakes and Efreets.

If you dislike Pestermite and are adamant that you dont want to play any nonfairies in the deck at all, here the decklist that I recommend for you.

Fairie Stompy 2.0

Artifacts
4 Chalice Of The Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Sword Of Fire And Ice
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Enchantments
4 Bitterblossom

Creatures
4 Cloud Of Faeries
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Scion of Oona
4 Mistbind Clique
3 Sower of Temptation

Instants
4 Force Of Will

Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City Of Traitors
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
2 Island

Though I see no reason to leave out bombs like Sea Drake, Serendib Efreet, Trinket Mage and Mulldrifter either.

I also am terribly unimpressed with Bitterblossom. I would prefer to stay monoblue and play Pestermites and Weatherseed Fairies instead.

YuanTi
08-17-2008, 07:20 PM
Using the deckcheck function does not make you seem awesome, I myself looked and did not find the lists there worth my time, the fact that you posted them means nothing.

If you\'re going to claim that a deck is performing, then the versions that are performing are very important to look at. Why are we getting bitter?


The cards individually are weak in this format, much like in countersliver (very rough comparison, don\'t take it too far), the cards gain strength through eachother, scion ---> every faerie has shroud/pump ----> bitterblossom now a threat -----> mistbind has a nice flow of thins the champion ------> spellstutter counters everything in the format.

So Scion makes Blossom good, and Blossom makes Mistbind and Spellstutter good. However, your comparison to Countersliver is surprisingly relevant. Countersliver has synergies a lot better than these. 8 +1/+1 effects available (if not always used), as well as the Shroud, as well as any other slivers the deck runs (Hibernation, Plated, Winged). Every creature in the deck improves the others. Faeries doesn\'t come close to this. Is Countersliver good? I\'d personally say so. Does it perform better than Threshold? No. You\'re claiming the reason to run this over Threshold is the large synergies between the creatures, but the Countersliver example seems to refute this as a good plan. And if this was a good reason to run these weaker cards, wouldn\'t it be better just to run Countersliver?


Ancestral vision really isn\'t all that bad here, as the deck needs CA draw spells, not cantrips, which is where those would preside anyways.

Aggro Control decks in a similar shell to this one do not need Ancestral Vision, why do you?


I cannot stress this enough, just because thoughtseize has a little faerie on it, does not mean it belongs in the legacy version, If I were to make the deck less controlling, and more agro, then sure, but thoughtseize is not good in a more controlling frame, such as this one.

Thoughtseize is not an aggro card, it controls your opponents resources. Your frame also seems more aggro orientated, running 15 cards which the only usage for is to turn something sideways.


On that note, besides despising my opening post, does anyone have anything worth while to post, or just more senseless dribble?

Looks like someone needs to calm down a bit.



EDIT: @ Yuanti--

Ah yes, Tarmogoyf.... How can I put this simple enough? Oh yeah! This is a tribal deck, and we run 11 countermagic in the MD, as well as 6 removal spells...

Threshold runs 12 or 8+Balance Counters in the Maindeck, 2 of your removal spells are vulnerable to creature destruction, and the other 4 depend on the opponents threat. Mongoose and Tarmogoyf should have no trouble getting around that, and you\'ll be even worse off facing down Tombstalkers, Gathan Raiders, Factories, or Swarms of Goblins.


Racing a tarmgoyf is not all that difficult in the mid-game,

1 and 2 Power creatures historically have trouble racing 5 power creatures.


and only 2 decks in the format run burn anymore (burn and red threshold, and a lesser extent imperial painter with 4 bolt)

Goblins have Incinerator, Goyf Sligh has Burn, while it may not be optimal, many other decks can be found running Burn too, especially Aggro Loam, and Survival can run creatures which burn.


... I am not saying that he is not bigger than these creatures, I am just saying that he does not have flying, and we have relevant removal....

If your opponents were running 4 Tarmogoyf and 56 Forests, your points would be correct, lets not forget that the opponents are allowed to play though.


Also, every creature currently is worse than tarmogoyf, except for dreadnought who needs a two card investment, and is slightly more vulnerable than the goyf.

So, why should we be considering an Aggro Control deck without Goyf?

Agro Beats
08-17-2008, 08:04 PM
The deck is amazingly powerful despite being mostly Type 2. Hell, Thresh AND Goblins were 98% extended legal a few years ago (force, dual lands, and lackey being the only not allowed cards). The advantage that this deck has over ANY aggro control deck is that all the creatures fly, most flash and all have an ability (Spellstutter Sprite, Vendilion Clique, Mistbind Clique, Scion of Oona) while the only sorcery speed critter (Sower) is totally worth the sorcery speed. Many Legacy players dismiss the power of Ancestral Vision but all you need is one to resolve as a 3 for 1 for free on the turn it clicks and it can easily be pitched to force later. I consider it a must in the deck. While so many decks have one hero (tarmogoyf, dreadnought, peasant with a large sword or jitte attached to it...), this one can function like merfolk where you can attack for 1, 1, 1, 7, 9... without the bitterblossom which can kill on its own. I played the deck both when lorwyn was first legal, then when morningtide was first legal:
Lorwyn version variation from thefreakaccident's version: 4x Shriekmaw as the removal, 4x Cloud of Faeries, 4x Sowers main, and 3 Mistbind Clique main
Morningtide Version: Cut Shriekmaw and moved Mistbind Clique to the board for 3x Vendilion Clique and 4x Bitterblossom
Lorwyn version went 4-1 only losing to belcher that went off games 1 and 3 on turn one by Duressing my Force of Will and going off that turn. All other matches I 2-0ed including trinket-goyf, reanimator, BWU Fish, and truffle shuffle with end step Scion, main phase Sower being the nuts in all those matches.
Morningtide version went 4-0-1 with me drawing with my friend in the finals defeating two random aggro-control decks, one counterbalance deck, and a BWG control deck.

thefreakaccident
08-17-2008, 09:26 PM
The deck is amazingly powerful despite being mostly Type 2. Hell, Thresh AND Goblins were 98% extended legal a few years ago (force, dual lands, and lackey being the only not allowed cards). The advantage that this deck has over ANY aggro control deck is that all the creatures fly, most flash and all have an ability (Spellstutter Sprite, Vendilion Clique, Mistbind Clique, Scion of Oona) while the only sorcery speed critter (Sower) is totally worth the sorcery speed. Many Legacy players dismiss the power of Ancestral Vision but all you need is one to resolve as a 3 for 1 for free on the turn it clicks and it can easily be pitched to force later. I consider it a must in the deck. While so many decks have one hero (tarmogoyf, dreadnought, peasant with a large sword or jitte attached to it...), this one can function like merfolk where you can attack for 1, 1, 1, 7, 9... without the bitterblossom which can kill on its own. I played the deck both when lorwyn was first legal, then when morningtide was first legal:
Lorwyn version variation from thefreakaccident's version: 4x Shriekmaw as the removal, 4x Cloud of Faeries, 4x Sowers main, and 3 Mistbind Clique main
Morningtide Version: Cut Shriekmaw and moved Mistbind Clique to the board for 3x Vendilion Clique and 4x Bitterblossom
Lorwyn version went 4-1 only losing to belcher that went off games 1 and 3 on turn one by Duressing my Force of Will and going off that turn. All other matches I 2-0ed including trinket-goyf, reanimator, BWU Fish, and truffle shuffle with end step Scion, main phase Sower being the nuts in all those matches.
Morningtide version went 4-0-1 with me drawing with my friend in the finals defeating two random aggro-control decks, one counterbalance deck, and a BWG control deck.



Thank god for you sir...


Also, Yuanti, personal flames are not tolerated on these boards, attack the idea, not the person.


Also, taking my words out of context purposefully is ok in the political realm, but just rude otherwise.


That being said, I guess I will have to defend my honor:


So Scion makes Blossom good, and Blossom makes Mistbind and Spellstutter good. However, your comparison to Countersliver is surprisingly relevant. Countersliver has synergies a lot better than these. 8 +1/+1 effects available (if not always used), as well as the Shroud, as well as any other slivers the deck runs (Hibernation, Plated, Winged). Every creature in the deck improves the others. Faeries doesn\'t come close to this. Is Countersliver good? I\'d personally say so. Does it perform better than Threshold? No. You\'re claiming the reason to run this over Threshold is the large synergies between the creatures, but the Countersliver example seems to refute this as a good plan. And if this was a good reason to run these weaker cards, wouldn\'t it be better just to run Countersliver?


My original point was that the cards help eachother out to CONTROL the gamestate, whereas slivers uses them to amass a huge shrouded army.

I didn't say: "run this over threshold, OMG bestest deck evar!", now did I?




Aggro Control decks in a similar shell to this one do not need Ancestral Vision, why do you?

Show me another agro-control deck with 22 lands and fact or fiction, an I'll give you a cookie.

The only reason we use this is it gives the deck the ability to play like a control deck, while still maintaining a decent amount of threats.



Thoughtseize is not an aggro card, it controls your opponents resources. Your frame also seems more aggro orientated, running 15 cards which the only usage for is to turn something sideways.

Is there any card in the deck that turns sideways without some obvious advantage otherwise?

sprite> counter
scion> shroud + beef
mistbind> timewalk
sower> control magic

I guess you're argument must mean the man lands and bitterblossom, well, they survive sweep effects, and give you men when you need them.



1 and 2 Power creatures historically have trouble racing 5 power creatures.


yeah, 4 2/2s with flying cannot race a 3/4-4/5, I must be insane.



Threshold runs 12 or 8+Balance Counters in the Maindeck, 2 of your removal spells are vulnerable to creature destruction, and the other 4 depend on the opponents threat. Mongoose and Tarmogoyf should have no trouble getting around that, and you\'ll be even worse off facing down Tombstalkers, Gathan Raiders, Factories, or Swarms of Goblins.

Show me a list of threshold with 12 hard counters, and again, I will give you a cookie...

Don't forget that scion makes it difficult to deal with sower, considering I too have countermagic... admittedly, stalkers and raiders are difficult to deal with, but that is really one of the main reasons to run the sower.

Every blue based agro-control deck has a tough time against goblins, this is what sideboards are for.



So, why should we be considering an Aggro Control deck without Goyf?

Is this kevin?

Cabal-kun
08-17-2008, 09:35 PM
Also, Yuanti, personal flames are not tolerated on these boards, attack the idea, not the person.

This is most amusing, coming from you, considering that you posted things like


Using the deckcheck function does not make you seem awesome, I myself looked and did not find the lists there worth my time, the fact that you posted them means nothing.


Hopefully, you guys can get over the list, and actually start some discussion...


On that note, besides despising my opening post, does anyone have anything worth while to post, or just more senseless dribble?



Show me another agro-control deck with 22 lands and fact or fiction, an I'll give you a cookie.

And other such inflammatory seeded statements.



I didn't say: "run this over threshold, OMG bestest deck evar!", now did I?

This is a strawman. This is also amusing, considering in the same post you said


Also, taking my words out of context purposefully is ok in the political realm, but just rude otherwise.

Peter_Rotten
08-17-2008, 09:48 PM
This does not seem to going down a productive line. Can we all play nicely or shall I lock this?

dude 666
08-18-2008, 12:27 AM
I've tested faeries and suggest to anyone who has been talking shit about it to do the same. It has many powerful creatures, which, like thefreakaccident pointed out, have very useful abilities. The most important creature is spellstutter sprite, I feel that without him, faeries would be garbage. He is the counterspell on legs that mystic snake was supposed to be.

Mistbind clique, on the other hand, I can't say that I liked. He is terribly slow, and seems win-more. I tested ancestral visions, but I have very mixed feelings about it. Sometimes it's awesome, but other times it fails miserably. I can't think of a replacement draw engine, but ancestral visions is too unreliable.

I think thoughtseize could push this into the more aggro/control area, have you tested it thefreakaccident?

thefreakaccident
08-18-2008, 01:12 AM
I tested it in an earlier incarnation, but as I slowly moved to bigger and bigger spells, and a more controlling build, I eventually decided to cut it for a better late game, because as the game goes on, the top of each players decks, and the additional life just are not worth it in the later turns.

I could post my older lists, but I do not want to clutter this thread with outdated tech....

Basically, it came down to this for me:

Faeries have a very strong late game, they cannot end the game by turn 6 usually, and they want to play the CA game.. Thoughtseize just did not cut it for my list.

Rush
08-18-2008, 03:57 AM
Here's a list I came up with. I like it:

It's Raining Men:
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
1 [RAV] Watery Grave
4 [B] Underground Sea
1 [U] Swamp (3)
6 [PT] Island (2)
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
4 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
4 [LRW] Scion of Oona
3 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
3 [LRW] Pestermite
4 [UL] Cloud of Faeries

// Spells
3 [OD] Standstill
2 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [FNM] Duress
4 [MOR] Bitterblossom

idraleo
08-18-2008, 05:33 AM
Standstill without Vial and manlands? Jitte and SoFI with Scion? Why Duress over Brainstorm? I' ve started playing this deck and Jitte was the first thing i' ve cutted, first from maindeck and then from sideboard; Scion have ever to be on board as fast as possible, and Jitte will be good only on second turn if you did Cloud of Faeries.

Cloud of Faeries too is useless as it doesn't gave you a real advantage: you can cast it on turn 2 and did Blossom too, or Jitte, or Standstill, but you are playing a mere 1/1 body without any utility on the board. If you got 2 mana to spend on Cloud, you have 2 mana to invest on Blossom or Standstill or Jitte too. This deck doen' t packs Ancient and Cityes, so Cloud is a simple 1/1 flyer for free, it doesn' t produce you some mana or accelerate your clocks.

The goal of this deck, as i could saw, is to play a 2nd\3rd turn Blossom, than sit and swing for win with tokens and Scion. The best way to did it is to play more tempo cards such as Daze and Stifle, to slow opponent gameplan and to stop some threat that owns us (Pernicious and E.E.). On the other side the deck had a serious sideboard problem, because it has bad MU from Burn, Dredge, Goblin and each deck that packs red, so is difficult to build a standard sideboard that will be good everywere, and is better to know the metagame where you want to play it and build a metagamed sideboard.

I'm playing this and the test seems good by now:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [MOR] Mutavault
4 [A] Underground Sea
8 [CS] Snow-Covered Island
2 [CS] Snow-Covered Swamp
4 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
4 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
4 [LRW] Scion of Oona
3 [LRW] Mistbind Clique
2 [LRW] Sower of Temptation

// Spells
4 [MOR] Bitterblossom
4 [TSP] Ancestral Vision
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [NE] Daze
3 [ON] Smother
3 [SC] Stifle

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
SB: 4 [A] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [UL] Delusions of Mediocrity

Rush
08-18-2008, 05:59 AM
Vial isn't necessary when most cards can be played via Flash. As for Duress, I don't like it. It needs to be cut, but for what? I'm leaning toward Daze or more draw power. Possibly another Sword and 3 Daze? Standstill is the draw card you want for the deck. I am wanting to add manlands, but I just like Wasteland too much. It's won several games for me that manlands just wouldn't have. Jitte is key. I constantly use all 3 of its abilities. Sword is just plain amazing in the format. Also, idraleo, you want Cloud of Faeries. It's essentially 0 cc for a 1/1 Flyer. Mistbind Clique didn't do anything for me when I had it mained. What have your results been?

FYI: People hate losing to this deck. :-D

idraleo
08-18-2008, 06:14 AM
The point is that Vial makes Standstill viable: you can't ever play Standstill if you not drop a Blossom first or to drop several creatures + equipments. By my experience, i' d rather run cards that got some sinergy and that will be useless by itself, Standstill sounds useful ONLY when the game is just going right for you. AV did the same card advantage, cost 1 mana and allows you to play spells whenever you like, Standstill stoles you tempo if you doesn' t did some other specific spell before.

Cloud is ONLY a cc free flyer. It doesn' t impact the board with a relevant body as Clique, and doesn' t have an ability as good as Spelstutter or Scion or Sower too.

Saying that Sword is amazing sounds as nothing. When you got 3 mana open, you simply end your turn and did some critter on your opponent EOT, nobody with this deck wants to tap at sorcery speed to play a cc3 equipment. You' re trying to throw into a single deck strategyes and cards from other decks that seems to work well but that is pointless. You' re playing draw spells that you can' t cast since you did Blossom or critters or equipment. You' re playing a 1/1 blue Ornithopter, equipments that is unviable when a Scion hits the board, 19 sorcery-speed spells, what else?

Rush
08-18-2008, 06:24 AM
I must play the deck differently than you, then, since my main point is to drag the game on and on while building up and swinging with fliers. As for AV, the problem is waiting 4 turns. With this deck, you may not have 4 turns to wait. As for Cloud of Faeries, I'd rather have a creature I could play 2 turns earlier over the Flash ability. He is a wicked tempo card. You want to keep the tempo fast and make the game drag on the way I play the deck. Essentially, you want to outwit your opponent by constantly having more resources.

idraleo
08-18-2008, 06:49 AM
Could you explain how a 1/1 flyer could give you tempo without invest your third turn to equip it with a Jitte casted on 2nd? Assume that you doe'nt have any Jitte in your hand, are you SERIOUSLY saying that cast a Cloud on your second turn is a good thing?? How could it be good for your clock? it probably will be better used as a pitch on Force, but saying that is good by itself is really senseless. Pestermite for example could did well against ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh or similar, because it could tap a threat and chumpblock another giving you a little timewalk, or chumpblock a Mongoose if there are some Scion on the board, but we' re talking of a really different card. After that, have you ever faced decks like Eva Green or Deadguy that could hit you on g2 and 3 with Engineered Plague? If a plague hits the board, regardless that you doesn' t want to play Clique (why??) you got all your deck owned execpt for Sowers. In my last test against Eva Green i won my last game with a Plague on opponents board with Clique, a lonely Sower and a couple of Mutavault. Could you did it with Pestermites and Clouds? Or simply scoop?

Captain_Morgan
08-18-2008, 08:12 AM
What about Sigil of Sleep with the heavy evasion? Can keep annoying creatures summonsing sick.

idraleo
08-18-2008, 07:44 PM
Sigil of Sleep have more problems than equipment, because it stoles you a turn to been cast and your opponent threat will always did a 2x1 on it. Moreover if opponents did a threat you' ll always loose 2 cards.

thefreakaccident
08-24-2008, 10:24 PM
I will be posting my tournament reports weekly here, as I will primarily be playing faeries or FT (I play this for guaranteed store cred every once and again, keeps me honest)...


I really hope that this thread does not die (much like all the other faerie threads).


I started this thing off on the wrong foot, and I apologize (to all whom I have offended).


Now, I have been thinking about my board, and for my meta (lots of agro/agro control, few control and combo) I have been strongly thinking about this:


4 propaganda/engineered plague (there is less tribal agro here, so prop is usually better for me)
3 annul (I have been liking it, it answers CB on the draw much like spell snare, but can answer other terrible nasties)
2 engineered explosives
4 extirpate
2 blue elemental blast (perhaps unnecassary... I like to have the extra help now and again)


I tested Idraleo's list, and it seemed pretty good, I just hated using daze as it kept me from sowering/mistbinding sometimes when I needed/wanted to, and I really missed the power of FoF, as it just keeps us ahead against agro and control most of the times.


I had a list featuring CB, which was pretty solid, But die to my personal preferences, I like the feel of the control variant better...


Here is my old CB build (for the CB enthusiasts):


lands//19
4 mutavualt
4 underground sea
1 swamp
4 polluted delta
3 flooded strand
3 island


creatures//10
4 spellstutter sprite
4 scion of oona
2 sower of temptation


spells//30
4 force of will
4 daze
3 bitterblossom
3 counterbalance
3 smother
4 brainstorm
3 sensei's divining top
4 ponder
3 thoughtseize



It was decent, but since I have to deal with decks like funkbrew all the time, I eventually scrapped it (deed ate this build alive), and built up my current list.


Also, I have added the fourth copy of mistbind into the list and it has been treating my good.

idraleo
08-25-2008, 02:05 AM
Mistbind Clique is a powerhouse, it wins alone games against Loam and is a real problem for rock versions and pikula. 3 is the right number to play, regardless that it allows us to restart after a Wrath effect or is good to save Blossom from Deed effects, and finally it could be used to remove our Blossoms when we get to few life points...

thefreakaccident
08-25-2008, 02:10 AM
I agree on all points... it also allows us to chump with cards like sower of temptation/whatever, then remove them to have them later, while still either chumping/trading with their creature.... and it deprives them of the rest of their turn (like when people play things post-combat).


I have liked it between 3 and 4... I still do not know the right number (multiples always feel like overkill, but they usually end the game, and every deck wants as many of those types of cards as possible).

DireLemming
08-25-2008, 11:22 AM
Survival Faeries (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=19209) that recently took first in Germany looks and (having played ~20 games) feels awesome. Not sure I agree with all the choices (e.g. Ponder, no Bitterblossom, no Witness main, etc.) but going into green for SotF and to a lesser extent Goyf and Grip is certainly an interesting path to take.

Having said that I've never tried any other list in this thread so I don't have the best point of reference. Also I have no idea whether green is just cool or does it actually shore up any bad match-ups.

KrzyMoose
08-25-2008, 02:23 PM
I would strongly suggest cutting Scion of Oona. I have never liked that card, since it is a 3 mana 1/1, whose effects are actually quite underwhelming.

Although, I guess if your metagame has a decent share of Aggro decks, you may want to run a more creature-heavy version. Or, you may want to just play another deck.

Take a look at Cheon's and LSV's deck from Nationals:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/usnat08/top8dl

They talked somewhere about why they cut Scion, and the choices they made in the deck, but I don't remember exactly where it was.

The basic idea was this: Faeries is a Control deck. Thus, every card in the deck should do something to promote that strategy. Casting a three mana 1/1 do-nothing does not help. The deck should not be worried about combat tricks, nor should it be worried about protecting its Bitterblossom tokens.

Now, if you want to take the deck in a more Aggro direction, then Scion might be better. If that's the case, then you may need to add more creatures, and cut stuff like Fact or Fiction.

Mister Agent
09-13-2008, 04:52 AM
I think sowers of temptation should be a playset as opposed to just running two copies. The ability to potentially dodge counterbalance and control any creature seems pretty good in my book. At least your glaring weakness of not running tarmogoyf seems less prominant when you have more selected varities of dealing with the creature type - Lhurgoyf.

Also why no chrome mox? They seem like they could add some depth to this archetype and not just for aggressive stances either.

Daeniel
09-13-2008, 07:10 AM
Ok seems that after spending some time with merfolks I'm having another "tribal" crysis. Oh well, I guess it's because I like control decks and I like the idea of flashy faeries coming down from the sky to swarm the opponent.

And being a black mage at heart, how not to include Bitterblossom? :wink:

Ok, jokes apart, I started this list just for fun, but soon I started winning against a large number of decks; let me know what you think.

5 island
4 underground sea
4 delta
2 strand
1 swamp
2 mutavault
3 chrome mox

4 scion of oona
4 spellstutter sprite
2 vendilion clique
2 mistbind clique
2 sower of temptation

4 braistorm
4 bitterblossom
4 thoughtseize
4 force of will
3 counterbalance
2 sesnsei divining top
3 daze
1 engineered explosives

side:
2 sower of temptation
3 crypt
2 glen elendra archmage
2 pithing needle
1 e. explosives
3 jitte
2 faerie macabre

One of the good things is that here Counterbalance can really counter a lot of stuff, with all this 3cc spells. Nice :cool:

idraleo
09-13-2008, 07:12 AM
This deck doesn' t need Moxes to play faster but have to control in the early and drop BB. Then each game became easyer to handle because opponent have to find a quick way to handle on your BB, or most of the times you simply overwhelm they thanks to Scion. Cutting Scion is one of the worst thing we could do. The fact is that Cheon cut it from his standard decklists because it faces a completely different metagame, and moreover because standard became slowly lately, so standard Faeries doesn' t need a card to speed up his clock but have to get a more controllish based strategy.

Legacy faeries still be at least an aggro control and Scion is a masterpiece of the deck. BB by itself is a too slow clock in this environment, and Scion obv provides to give speed to our clock and simoultaneously gives us the chance to waste less counter on some targete removal or could save our Mutavault from being wasted thanks to the shroud ability.

Mister Agent
09-13-2008, 02:02 PM
This deck doesn' t need Moxes to play faster but have to control in the early and drop BB. Then each game became easyer to handle because opponent have to find a quick way to handle on your BB, or most of the times you simply overwhelm they thanks to Scion. Cutting Scion is one of the worst thing we could do. The fact is that Cheon cut it from his standard decklists because it faces a completely different metagame, and moreover because standard became slowly lately, so standard Faeries doesn' t need a card to speed up his clock but have to get a more controllish based strategy.

Legacy faeries still be at least an aggro control and Scion is a masterpiece of the deck. BB by itself is a too slow clock in this environment, and Scion obv provides to give speed to our clock and simoultaneously gives us the chance to waste less counter on some targete removal or could save our Mutavault from being wasted thanks to the shroud ability.

I still think chrome mox should be tested in here at the very least. The reason why I suggested chrome mox is mainly for tempo card advantage. Especially considering you can't run aether vial because of the lack of synergetic value with the rest of the deck. Unless of course you bring down the number of faeries and run powerful outlets like tarmogoyf and standstill.

The archetype in general also does not run as many blue cantrips as threshold to push your aggro-control strategy through. This is why I think having an alternative outlet such as chrome mox could help this deck in more then one way.

idraleo
09-13-2008, 02:22 PM
If you want run Moxes there' s no reason to play Thoughtsize over a card advantage card. With Mox and Force you' re running 7 cards that needs a pitch, and your Forces are obv less powerful of other versions because you' re trying to add CB, that forces you to run SDT too. at least you' ll find that thers few blue cards to pitch on Force other than creatures, and that THoughtseize became useless because you took a real advantage only when you speed up your gameplan by Mox, so when you play Thoughtseize you' re wasting tempo.

thefreakaccident
09-13-2008, 02:23 PM
Due to the prevalence of red agro in my meta nowadays, I have recently cut sower for vendilion clique, as a 3/1 flier is a decent sized body, and its' ability is very good against recursive engines (hitting loam after they've dredged... etc.)... Also, I got very tired of having to set up several turns in advance just to take a creature... it got tiresome.


Obviously, if my meta starts to head towards black/blue again (my meta shifts heavily very quickly), then I will definitely go back to the sowers.



The reason I only ever ran 2 sowers is because it was there to supplement smother, as smother deals with most creatures in the format already.


Also, with additional sowers, the curve then begins to become too high.


With just two sowers, my build was running 7 4cc cards... that's a lot considering we run only 22 lands.

This was another factor in my descision to cut them, as vendilion clique is better for my current meta, and lowers the curve (which is also better for my meta).


I am glad discussion has not halted for this deck entirely.


Also: Having been testing the goblins MU for a while now, I have been getting some mixed results for my postboard games... which has been better for you guys:

Engineered plague or propaganda?


They are both good, but I find myself still getting attacked by cheifs and drives... whereas w/ prop, that is all they can attack with, as they will usually only hit 5-6 lands before you have started racing them.


I think I perfer propaganda as of now, as it is also extremely great in the ichorid MU, as opposed to plague (which is ok, but not as good).


I will also need to test the agro-loam MU with someone competent as soon as I get MWS working for my mac again... I played like 20 games with one of my buddies, me playing faeries half the time, and me playing loam half the time... and I literally won every game (as both loam and faeries)... so there is a problem there.

EDIT:

@ chrome mox-- I have not tested the card, but I have tried it in legacy agro-control decks in the past, and found that it is usually only beneficial if you can gain massive CA very soon after, or play something to massively disrupt the opponent... As this is primarily a control deck (that can switch into being agro/agro-control very easily when needed), I have not found the need to test it as of yet...


If you have a list in mind Kevin, I would be glad to look into it.

Mister Agent
09-13-2008, 02:39 PM
If you want run Moxes there' s no reason to play Thoughtsize over a card advantage card. With Mox and Force you' re running 7 cards that needs a pitch, and your Forces are obv less powerful of other versions because you' re trying to add CB, that forces you to run SDT too. at least you' ll find that thers few blue cards to pitch on Force other than creatures, and that THoughtseize became useless because you took a real advantage only when you speed up your gameplan by Mox, so when you play Thoughtseize you' re wasting tempo.

I did not necassarily say you should replace thoughtseize with chrome mox. I just thought it should be worth mentioning and thrown in for preliminary testing. Especially considering right now there is no universally adopted skeleton core for faeries. This leads to the fact that there is a large influx of different faerie builds that end up doing well in variety of metagames. Keeping this in mind, there is no right way as of now in developing a optimal faerie list that several players can agree on.

Thoughtseize in my mind is almost never useless. Especially considering it's a strong disruptive spell against a variety of decks in the format. Thoughtseize also gets incrementally stronger with the supplemental help of force of will and cantrips.

idraleo
09-13-2008, 02:53 PM
I didn' t say to replace Thoughtseize with moxes. I sayed that if you run moxes you' re forced to run advantage cards such as FoF or AV over Thoughtseize, and keep in mynd that you' re simoultaneously running Mox AND Force, so you' ll need cards in your hand. Even if there isn' t an universally competitive Faeries build, keep in mynd that if you play moxes you NEED card advantage.

I' m still testing my 3 color decklist and i got a favorable goblin mu preboard, wich became something near 90-10 post board. My decklist performs well against rock, goblin, staxbased, stompybased, loam and landstill. It keeps a playable mu against UGw Thresh, FT, TES and Belcher. It scoops completely from Burn in the first match, from dredge in the first match, from Canadian Thresh the first and second match. At least it wins more than what it loose, i'm wayting to took it on real tournaments to get some real satisfaction XD

Mister Agent
09-13-2008, 03:16 PM
I didn' t say to replace Thoughtseize with moxes. I sayed that if you run moxes you' re forced to run advantage cards such as FoF or AV over Thoughtseize, and keep in mynd that you' re simoultaneously running Mox AND Force, so you' ll need cards in your hand. Even if there isn' t an universally competitive Faeries build, keep in mynd that if you play moxes you NEED card advantage.



I disagree, if you run a solid and prominant threat suite you shouldn't have any problem with incorporating chrome moxes in the deck. Especially considering you run cards like mind harness, sower of temptation, and of course bitterblossom.

idraleo
09-13-2008, 06:56 PM
So you' re saying that is good to play Force of Will in a deck that packs Moxen, Thoughtseize, NO card advantage and cantrip except for Brainstorm and where the only pitchable things are your win condition?


considering you run cards like mind harness

Sorry, i' m missing some point ^^''''

Mister Agent
09-14-2008, 12:54 AM
So you' re saying that is good to play Force of Will in a deck that packs Moxen, Thoughtseize, NO card advantage and cantrip except for Brainstorm and where the only pitchable things are your win condition?



Sorry, i' m missing some point ^^''''

No, what I am saying is chrome mox can operate as a tempo CA generator by powering out threats at a efficient pace or enable you to potentially control the game better by casting a efficient engine/card like counterbalance in a quicker manner. This strategy can work in an aggro-control shell. Afterall, decks like faerie stompy and baseruption incorporated both Force of will and chrome mox and have proven themselves as established decks in legacy.

There is also nothing wrong with pitching a strong spell to force of will and/or chrome mox consider you just pitch whatever spell is weak at that very moment. Sacrificing something big for something greater can be relevant.

As for mind harness, what I mean is it can be considered as a threat since it obviously steals one of the most played creatures in the format.

thefreakaccident
09-14-2008, 01:53 AM
When I played in the extended ptqs two seasons ago, Chase rare was decent early in the season...


First turn chrome mox --> awesomeness was that deck's bread and butter.


A first turn DConfidant/Bitterblossom on the play would be kind of juicy, especially in a build w/ Daze and counterbalance...

Hell, the build could also get away with running cards like thirst for knowledge as 'smaller FoFs' to better fit the curve and get rid of additional unwanted moxes/tops/whatever.

idraleo
09-14-2008, 04:57 AM
Yes its obv that if you play TfK Moxes became better, but i'm not sure that this decklist could did well. It have no way to handle a creature except for Sowers and a mere E.E.

By my experience is impossible to draw in a hand that permise you to control everything, so how you' re gonna to face a quick Dark Confidant or a 1st turn Goblin Lackey? Did you mulligan until you had a pitchable Force of Will on the first turn each game? Or you' re hoping to win each roll die to did Thoughtseize > go?

Yes, Mox could be added, but it needs a more efficent backup, a specific draw engine and a shell different from what you' re trying to build up. Mox is good in Fearie Stompy because it plays a lone color and TfK + Mulldrifter+ Sofi. Mox is strong in some deck because those decks have a shell and a gameplan that makes Mox useful.

At least, stop saying that "This card was nuts in extended" or "cut those card because it sucks in standard", because we' re playing a different environment with different decks; in extended a first turn land, mox, Dark Confidant >go is nuts because there' s no possibility ti get into a Force of Will and except for some red based aggro nobody have a first turn answer to Confidant. So some cards packed in a format could not did as well they do in others formats.

idraleo
09-21-2008, 07:42 PM
I did it! 6th at a 55 people tournament today with my 3color decklist, another friend of myne took it to a decent 4/2 and miss the top8 because of many topdecks of his opponent in the last match. The deck confirms himslef as a solid one, it got few bad matchups and wins with an unexpected fast clock. Scion got to be 4off, too useful too many times, it really put the fire in the deck, and Mistbind confirms to be able to win against Loam and Stax based or Stompy based by herself. That' s the decklist, hope you like it ^^

// Lands
3 [MOR] Mutavault
2 [A] Underground Sea
5 [CS] Snow-Covered Island
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Swamp
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
2 [A] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
4 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
4 [LRW] Scion of Oona
3 [LRW] Mistbind Clique
2 [LRW] Sower of Temptation

// Spells
3 [MOR] Bitterblossom
4 [TSP] Ancestral Vision
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [NE] Daze
3 [SC] Stifle
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [A] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [9E] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 2 [MM] Disenchant
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives

thefreakaccident
09-21-2008, 07:56 PM
I am happy for you... although, I cannot say I am surprised...


Can we get a mini-report, or are you going to write a full one in the tournament section?

Illissius
09-21-2008, 07:58 PM
Is Bitterblossom one of your best cards? If it is, why run less than four of it?

thefreakaccident
09-21-2008, 08:18 PM
It is good, but it can be terrible in a few MUs (quick combo/burn)... which he may have saw a lot of.

idraleo
09-21-2008, 08:55 PM
Yes, i' ve noticed that BB is one of the my best card but that i don' t need more than 3. I' ve used to play 4off in my first tests, but after playing the deck i' ve noticed that an opening hand with a double BB is not as good as we can think. Also, there' s really few decks againt who we can play more than 1 BB simoultaneosuly. So i' d rather cut 1 of my BB to maindeck a full set of Swords to Plowshares. BB is awsome against stax based and stompy decks, but sometimes, expecially against burn and many comboish decks, you simply side they out; the same is not true, for example, to Mistbind, wich remains in the deck ever in every matchup.

This is a minireport of the tournament (i'm not a big fan of reports ^^'''')

Round 1 against DreadnoughtSurvival, g1 i simply did av>go, bb>go, counter something, Scion GG. Round 2 he did forest, isuspend AV on my first turn, he put Dreadnought into play on turn 2, turn2 i pass the turn, then he beat me and did 2 Nimble mongoose, eot i did Brainstorm+StP on Dread, turn 3 land>go, he beat me to 2 life and did Mongrel, i did eot Scion, turn 4 sower on mongrel, he beat and i chumpblock moongooses loosing sower and his mongrel, he did mongrel number 2, my turn i did sower, after all i don' t remember well but i won beating with 3 Mutavault+Scion (lol)

Round 2 i faced Dragon Stompy, game 1 i win by Blossom+ Sower, round 2 he scoops by BB+ some random Scion and tons of counterspells effect.

Round 3 i loss to UWb Landstill, very unfair because my opponent did some important error but he draw something close to the perfect answer each time. I remember that in g1 he topdeck the 1off Humility and i was obv out of counterspells, g2 was ridiculous because he did 2 Standstill and draw into 6 spells, i did 2 brainstorm on 6 lands and an AV that makes me draw 3 lands (lol)

Round 4 i win by bw Pox , g1 was very long and i remember that i won beating with a 6/6 Mistbind (thx Scion, you meke me cum lol), g2 scoop by denial (that was so random), g3 i simply did BB, some Scion and 2 or 3 Spellstutter backups

Round 5 i won by a white weenie deck, that is hilarious because as it is a bad mu.

Round 6 id

Top8 i scoop by UGR dreadstill, g1 he did Dread and i found no answer, round 2 i did AV>go, he did island, i did a second AV, the he did Dread+stifle, i did Daze, he daze, i did fore, he forced too, i did Brainstorm ad see 2 lands and something useless, then scoop.

I was very unlucky against Dreadstill in top8, moreover because he play all his game on a Dread and i don' t saw any card between an STP, a DIsenchant or an EE.

thefreakaccident
09-21-2008, 10:05 PM
Have you missed the extra power draw in FoF?

I have been loving it in my build (I do not run daze though)...


Anyways... I am still in the Ub color scheme, and may branch out to white just for the possibility of running swords and maybe meddling mage in the board (laom=badtimes... don't need it for combo, but it is there).


I don't really care for the Cop red, as I would usually want to run something like plague (if goblins) or chill (if burn)... they just both seem much more powerful, as there is no additional mana investment.

I could be wrong... But these options just simply seem more powerful.

idraleo
09-22-2008, 12:05 AM
The fact is that there's no sideboard slot to play both Chill and Plague. The point is that Burn is a bad mu by itself, probably the worst, and CoP tooks 4 slots to handle on both mups. Playing Plague and Chill instead of BeB and CoP are worst by theyrself. You've got no problem to invest mana on CoP because regardless of each other aggro or aggrocontrol deck you play your buddies at istant speed; you can simply sit on CoP and wait until you drop6-7 lands without doing anything. Against goblin, if they plays green and Grips, CoP is useless as Plague, but cost you 1 mana less. It allows you to drop it on your second turn and being able to did something relevant in your opponent combat phase/end of turn step of theyr 3rd turn, such as did a Scion or a Spelstutter+Brainstorm/StP/BeB. Against burn, even if i am a big fanatic of Aegis of Honor, side in CoP allows you to let Disenchant effects outn in your sideboard because Vortex doesn' t hurts you.

So, in the end, as you right say the single option seems more powerful by theyrself, but took + slots and are more synergic with a classic aggro deck. This deck have a gameplan and a strategy that is unfoundable in other legacy deck. Before Faerie sees some good prints, there was no other decks in the environment that doesn' t plays Vial that let you win by creatures and allows you to end your turn without tapping mana to did some critter. That simply amazing, but by myself is the point that makes some choices, that 1st seems strange, work better than classic ones.

Talking on card advantage, i found that AV+Brainstorm was really effective and had a good sinergy with my build: as i play Daze, there' s too much possibility to did my 4th land drop on the 5th/6th turn of the game. So when i considered a good card that gives me advantage to build this deck, AV takes the spot. If it came down from my 1st to my 3rd turn, it allows me to play threats on threats to force my opponent on handle everything, and if they' re able to, i simply wait 1 or 2 turn and draw by AV. It is difficult for everyone to stop simoultanesouly each of my critter, dodge my counterspells AND being able to stop AV too. And, moreover, AV gives a great advantage by itself against discard-based decks. And, at least, AV doesn' t add too much 4cc spell to my mana curve.

thefreakaccident
09-22-2008, 12:11 AM
I get what you are saying, and you are right... (more flexible slots as opposed to fewer 'stronger' slots)...

However...

@ FoF... I play it as a two of, and I have the full set of AV (see, I play both)...


I see lots of agro and control in my meta, and sometimes I enjoy having the additional cards off of FoF to either pull ahead by far, or keep my answers/threats untenable for them.


Literally, all I need is my 3rd/4th BB and I can finally start playing this deck IRL at my local tourney :cool:

Nihil Credo
09-22-2008, 10:23 AM
Good job, leo! Did you think about Absolute Law in place of CoP: Red? It's much better against Goblins, and a bit worse against Burn (but it can't be Needled!). It also makes the Aggro Loam matchup *very* easy - no more Devastating Dreams or Seismic Assault FTW, and Crusher gets blocked by a token.

Also, thread moved to Established.

thefreakaccident
09-22-2008, 10:45 AM
If you are running the white splash, then absolute law would be a house!

Good Find/idea Nihil.

Also, now that we are in the established forums, perhaps we need a new primer?


If so, I would gladly write one that is more in depth, and it would also include all the successful builds up until now.

Also:

Here is the Tri-color build I have been tinkering with:

lands//22
4 mutavault
2 faerie conclave
3 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
1 plains
1 swamp
2 underground sea
2 tundra
4 island

creatures//13
3 mistbind clique
4 scion of oona
4 spellstutter sprite
2 sower of temptation (can be vendilion in a less aggressive meta)

spells//25
4 ancestral vision
4 brainstorm
4 force of will
3 spell snare (can be counterspell in a less aggressive meta)
2 fact or fiction
4 bitterblossom
4 swords to plowshares

My meta has little to no burn in it, but there are goyf-sligh/BDW style decks with critters and a little burn.

Anyways... here is my sideboard (actual):

sideboard//
4 extirpate
4 meddling mage
4 engineered plague (can be propaganda/ghostly prison in less tribal meta)
3 engineered explosives


Ichorid shows up almost every tournament here, and there is always at least 1-2 threshold builds (usually Uwg)... Goblins, merfolk, and ELVES! all actually see play here, as well as certain builds of survival.

Loam shows up now and again, which also makes the 'pates better.

If I was expecting a ridiculous amount of loam and red agro, then I would probably fit the absolute law into the board, primarily for reasons already stated.

THEchubbymuffin
09-22-2008, 10:46 AM
COP: red is also good against dragon stompy. Just Saying.

loveisgreen
09-22-2008, 10:59 AM
I've been playing a more control oriented version at a local tournament of mine that looks a little something like this:

4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Scion of Oona
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Mistbind Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Bitterblossom
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Smother

4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
4 Mutavault
4 Island
2 Swamp
1 Pendelhaven
1 Riptide Laboratory

I believe the fundamental turn for this deck is turn 2, since you'll either be casting a Bitterblossom or playing a Cloud of Faeries and a Jitte with counter back- up. The Jitte takes the edge off the life you pay for the Bitterblossom and the fetches while Cloud of Faeries lets you cheat the curve for Spellstutter along with Mutavault.

Serbitar
09-22-2008, 12:20 PM
Without having tested: Riptide Laboratory looks really good here, should the game go long.

Illissius
09-22-2008, 02:07 PM
Yeah, I saw a T8 with two almost identical mono blue Faeries lists, and one of them had the Lab; and I must say using it to recur Spellstutters and Cliques does sound fairly obscene.

idraleo
09-22-2008, 07:11 PM
Riptide Lab is a good add on but i thought that it could be viable only in monocolored or at least double colored decklists. Running 3 colors + Mutavault + Riptide won' t be as good as we need thinking on Wasteland effects. Absolute Law is a powerhouse against goblin and loam, but doesn' t affect the mu against burn wich is the worst one. Our critters have no problems against burn because we doesn' t suffer Flamebreak. Also, i thought that Jitte was useless as i say some post before, it have no sinergyes with our gameplan, it tooks 2 turn to became useful, and moreover it became a mere piece of paper if we drop a Scion. Basically i thought that playing cards that became completely useless when we drop one of the most important card we play is an epic fail.

Talking on sb, i thought that if i got to play something to handle match ups against red based deck and that doesn' t scoop by Pithing i will go on Sphere of Law. Yes, it is 4 mana and it is a sorcery, but it did well against goblin, burn and loam simoultaneously.

thefreakaccident
09-25-2008, 12:12 AM
Since I do not have a full set of bittertblossoms yet, I will be playing a Uw version for this weeks tournament...

Here is the list, and I will wright a full tourney report, even if I happen to do badly...
Anyways:

lands//23
4 tundra
4 mutavault
2 faerie conclave
3 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
7 island

creatures//13
4 scion of oona
4 spellstutter sprite
3 mistbind clique
2 vendilion clique

spells//24
4 ancestral vision
4 brainstorm
1 fact or fiction

4 force of will
3 counterspell
2 cryptic command

4 swords to plowshares
2 vedalken shackles



This version is obviously waaay more controlling and slow, as you do not have the aggressive bitterblossom, but you also have plenty of board manipulation.

Anyways, this is the build I plan on playing, and I will have a report friday :cool:

idraleo
09-25-2008, 08:07 PM
Going on the controLLish gamepLan, don' t you find any place in your maindeck for a couple of E.E.? As you don' run BB and doesn't win by tokens they' re more viable. Anyway, i don' t see the reason to play Vedalken over Sower, as Sower becames untargettable, did some damage by itslef and moreover pitches on FOrce if needed.

thefreakaccident
09-28-2008, 01:03 PM
I did badly last friday.

We were all a little digruntled at the fact that this would be the last friday legacy event, so I do not know if that had anything to do with it.

Anyways...

Here was my record (not too much):

round one:

I am playing against my teammate, the rack... We talk a little trash before the match, and I sweep him 2-0... it was a very close game however, with both of us at low life totals at the end of both.


round two:

I am playing against Kevin Trombley, AKA Kevdog... Anyways, he is probably the sorest looser/arrogant guy one can know. He beats me game one going agro (I won every counterbattle, and drew more cards than him)... unfortunately, I just could not form a clock, and he had waste-lock to kill my manlands... I die to a monastary and two mishras in two turns.

Game 2, he gets tripple plague throughout the game, I countered one, bounced/countered the second thanks to the help of a cryptic conmmand... I had boarded in 3 disenchants, and on the fifth turn of time, with only 8 cards left in my library, I still couldn't find any of my disenchants (with more than lethal between my hand/on board)... that was upsetting, especially against a good MU... The black splash helps a lot here.


Round 3 is against another one of my teammates, charles, AKA css... Anyways, he is playing TES.

I counter his ritual effects w/ spellstutters game one, making it impossible for him to get the 3R necessary for the warrens, I win with faerie beatz.

Game 2, He plays some cantrips, duresses me, chants me a turn later, then combos w/ tendrils for like 22 dmg.

Game 3, I force him to fizzle, but I give him the win anyways, because not only am I a saint, I was tired and wanted to go home.


I was feeling a little bit like a hypocrite not posting my results... just thought you guys ought to know.

Frenger
09-28-2008, 01:46 PM
What's that about no more fnm at GE?

That's some pretty shitty luck with those disenchants...

The Rack
09-28-2008, 02:26 PM
They are moving them to Saturdays.

I watched the match against Kevin and all Robert had to do was draw a Disenchant, play it on the one Engineered Plague, cast 5 faeries EOT with the 20 lands he had and it was game. It was just really bad luck.

thefreakaccident
09-28-2008, 03:46 PM
Plus, kevin was only at about 7 life, so I had lethal with just my lands on board :rolleyes: ...

Anyways, I think the deck still performed very well, and if I had the optimal list (ie black), then I probably would have done better.

Also, I will not blame my loss to kevin on bad luck, he played well too.

idraleo
09-28-2008, 06:36 PM
I still respect you man :***


Next time your Faeries will kick some ass ^^

Happy Gilmore
10-01-2008, 02:41 PM
Why doesn't this deck run Oona's Prowler? Seems like a very good aggressive beater.

Nihil Credo
10-01-2008, 03:49 PM
Why doesn't this deck run Oona's Prowler? Seems like a very good aggressive beater.
Oona's Prowler is a terrible card for any deck that doesn't need a Madness outlet. Faeries is much more of a control than an aggro deck, and Prowler's power-to-cost ratio is not nearly aggressive enough to make it even vaguely interesting - heck, Pestermite is usually better at supporting a beatdown game.

idraleo
10-01-2008, 08:05 PM
If i want to waste cards on direct damage, i' ll sure board 4 Psionic Blasts...

thefreakaccident
10-01-2008, 11:28 PM
If i want to waste cards on direct damage, i' ll sure board 4 Psionic Blasts...


THAT'S GENIOUS!!!! (just kidding)...


See, unlike other decks that both pack creatures and control elements, we are not exactly agro-control... We are CONTROL-agro.

We try to maintain control of the game, then put an end to it in just a few turns, or bleed the opponent very slowly while we control the gamestate.

Forbiddian
10-02-2008, 01:14 AM
Hmm, so Legacy tournaments moving to Saturdays? Next week, tell the GE dude to update the times on their website, it still says they have Friday @ 6:30 legacy events scheduled at least through October.

thefreakaccident
10-02-2008, 10:28 AM
Hmm, so Legacy tournaments moving to Saturdays? Next week, tell the GE dude to update the times on their website, it still says they have Friday @ 6:30 legacy events scheduled at least through October.

Anyways...

Me and idraleo have been talking a little bit... and I think I want to edit this list into the beginning of the thread:

lands//22
2 underground sea
4 mutavault
2 faerie conclave
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
2 tundra
2 island
1 swamp
1 plains

creatures//13
3 mistbind clique
4 scion of oona
4 spellstutter sprite
2 sower of temptation

spells//25
4 bitterblossom
4 swords to plowshares
4 brainstorm
4 ancestral vision
4 force of will
2 spell snare/other counterspells
2 counterspell
1 fact or fiction


sideboard//
4 extirpate
4 disenchant
3 engineered explosives
4 circle: protection red/chill/bebs

idraleo
10-02-2008, 07:51 PM
This decklist is more controllish than the one i' ve played for my tests, it drops Daze to get more several Counterspells, and abuse of manlands thanks to Conclaves. I thought that it could perform as well as mine but playing a little less aggressive gameplan. If you want to run a consistent controllish wave of cards, that' s the way to go to.

One of the thing i' ll probably edit is teh 4th Mutavault, that combined with Conclave makes AV less interesting and viable on turn 1. AV is one of the best card i' ve ever played, it is something near to god each time you suspend on turn 1, and seems godlike also on turn 2 or 3. Anyway, i' ll like less wastable manabases, so i' ll sure go on with more basic Islands over tons of manlands...

hi-val
10-03-2008, 09:30 AM
I'm inclined to say that this deck assuredly wants one and maybe two Riptide Laboratory. Their value seems to go up even more if you've got Aether Vial in the deck. I forsee a lot of games where you just Spellstutter something and then when you get the chance, bounce Big Stuts back to your hand. The one damage a turn it makes is far less relevant than the hardcountering it does in the deck. Bouncing Vendillion Cliques with Meth Lab seems really good too when/if you want to draw more cards yourself. Saving Sowers and the like from direct damage seems hot as well. All of this is a little greedy on the mana but with Flash dudes and Aether Vial, it seems mitigated.

Riptide Lab looks like that lategame element that all the successful Legacy decks run with these days.

idraleo
10-03-2008, 02:27 PM
Riptide Lab looks like that lategame element that all the successful Legacy decks run with these days.

And that' s exactLy what this deck doesn' t need. When you go on Late game, the onLy card you want to saw is Scion, pLus some random Faerie\MutavauLt. Moreover, you pLay more coLorLess Lands, and Let AV became Less attractive, and first turn StP or Stifle more probLematic. ALso, RIptide is wastabLe and is very poor whenever you drop a Scion to upgrade your cLock...

Anyway, for the Last time, running more than 4 coLorLess Lands in this deck is an epic faiL...

thefreakaccident
10-03-2008, 07:35 PM
Yeah.. Again, I do agree with ildrealo on almost all points...

About my list... the meta that I am currently playing in has a tad bit more black agro and control decks than usual metagames.

I always found daze a necessity in threshold due to the fact that you are tapping down pretty low or all the way almost all the time... whereas, a deck like faeries does not... we have 8-10 sorcery speed cards in the entire deck (excluding lands), meaning that most of the time, we will be passing the turn to the opponent unless we are attacking, in which case we are winning.


I have never liked daze all too much for my builds, as it is as you said... I run a little less islands than you :tongue: .


Also...

@ riptide: it is a cute card, but I don't think this deck could possibly support more than one ever.

I will test one in place of the second conclave, and get back to you on that...

I am not going to lie though... infinite stutters sounds sexy :cool:


EDIT: I just noticed that faeries got 6 top 8s in the DTB forums in the historical top 8 thread...

Does that mean that faeries deserves a DTW status?

If so, moderators, please contact me and I will spend two days straight on an awesome opening post for you guys.

Gaara of the Funk
10-04-2008, 12:54 AM
Yeah.. Again, I do agree with ildrealo on almost all points...

About my list... the meta that I am currently playing in has a tad bit more black agro and control decks than usual metagames.

I always found daze a necessity in threshold due to the fact that you are tapping down pretty low or all the way almost all the time... whereas, a deck like faeries does not... we have 8-10 sorcery speed cards in the entire deck (excluding lands), meaning that most of the time, we will be passing the turn to the opponent unless we are attacking, in which case we are winning.


I have never liked daze all too much for my builds, as it is as you said... I run a little less islands than you :tongue: .


Also...

@ riptide: it is a cute card, but I don't think this deck could possibly support more than one ever.

I will test one in place of the second conclave, and get back to you on that...

I am not going to lie though... infinite stutters sounds sexy :cool:


EDIT: I just noticed that faeries got 6 top 8s in the DTB forums in the historical top 8 thread...

Does that mean that faeries deserves a DTW status?

If so, moderators, please contact me and I will spend two days straight on an awesome opening post for you guys.

Or for 7 infinate mistbind clique, infunate tapdown, or infinate vendillion, control what the opponent draws, :tongue:

Oh and hey could you stack a sower so you can take the crit then bounde your sower to keep the crit with sower gone?

The Rack
10-04-2008, 02:28 AM
I really don't understand why you don't run standstill. You have 6 manlands and can flash stuff in after the standstill breaks. Why wouldn't Ancestral Recall be good for 2 mana here?

idraleo
10-04-2008, 06:40 AM
Why wouldn't Ancestral Recall be good for 2 mana here?


Because we just pLay a 1 mana Ancestral Recall?

The Rack
10-04-2008, 02:49 PM
The problem with that is it takes 4 turns to wait. A second turn standstill is awesome just about all the time.

idraleo
10-04-2008, 10:05 PM
Sorry, in something near 300 games i miss that wait until turn 4 was a problem. Probably i got to go back on my tests.



I' m fucking hilarious, obv...

thefreakaccident
10-05-2008, 01:26 AM
Yeah... idrealo is right (sorry jake)... Standstill is situational, and requires 2 mana as opposed to one (and this deck is very mana tight)...

I will usually have to wait to play my standstill on about the same turn that visions would un-suspend anyways...


Also... standstill slows down our ways to control the board... which is bad, as most decks just cannot gain such an advantagous board position as well as faeries does.


I tested the deck with standstills and then just added one standstill instead of FoF... this is also a test-slot, but it has been a little better than FoF, essentially acting as ancestral recall (oops, I meant vision) # 5 once you have obtained your board position that you want.

I will have the deck totally done for real life tournament play in just a week, so look out world!

DalkonCledwin
10-05-2008, 01:58 AM
isn't much of the faeries cards just a bit slow for legacy games?

Windux
10-05-2008, 07:39 AM
This isn't a good argumentation...

I think he means, playing Pumper for 3 Mana or 1/1 for 2 seems him too slow, since you can't do that much early.

Sowers and Mistbinds even cost 4 mana.

Don't come out with 2 sentences that doesn't make sence at it's own.
Scion EoT alone is NOT a 2 turn clock, you will need 9 more damage (which is 4,5Damage without Scion) in play already.

Also the Standstill-argumentation isn't that overwhelming that I would say "You are right! Vision is much better! It just costs 1 mana and you always forget the 4 turns you
wait!"...WTF?


EDIT: Thank you idraleo for the better description of your choises :)

idraleo
10-05-2008, 07:47 AM
TaLking on StandstiLL, i found that is not good as AV, moreover because you can' t choose to draw or not, and against StandstiLL it becames a probLem for yourseLf if our opponent drops 2 or more Mishra's. Remember that 2 Mishras couLd break our MutavauLts if we don' t have a Scion on board. BasicaLLy, StandstiLL becames nuts ONLY if you wait untiL turn 4 to drop it, and moreover if you drop a Scion or 2 BLossoms. If you wait turn 4,that was the same turn that AV makes you draw, is useLess to invest 2 mana on your StandstiLL if your goaL is to draw. This deck doesn' t have the same kind of controL that LandstiLL couLd give to a game, and is hiLarious to focus on a more sLow gamepLan pLaying StandstiLLs when we know that most of the times some EOT Scion couLd took some game for us. I ' d rather did AV on my 1st/2nd turn and wait to saw if my opponent want try to stop it in my upkeep phase, probably giving me the chance to drop a BB or something interesting without investing too much mana on it.

In the end, sometimes happens that you face pLayers who miss the reaL power ratio of speLLs you' re pLaying; StandstiLL is part of the environment since Legacy became a LegaL format, so pLayers who saw it knew how to pLay around it and new pLayers tends to knew it too because it is heavy pLayed. AV sometimes remains underscored by opponents, that did some mistake pLaying against it and underrating it too, so it is more easy to overwheLm some pLayer with the new cards you' re gonna to draw.

Pumpers for 3 mana and Mana Short with a 4/4 body is all the deck needs because they got flash. Mana is never a problem, because your basic approach to the game is to wait until opponent did something or did something by yourself in EoT step. Sower is a nice add on because you could try to handle creatures by Stp or some flash chumpblocker in opponents attack step, then saw they waste resources on your threats, or let theyr critters and yours both dies in the combat phase, and simply go to stole new critters in your turn. As the deck is, it have no problem to reach a stabile 5-6 manabase on the board, that allows you to play anything in your hand, and moreover CotV doesn' t hurts us as much as it did to other aggro control decks like Rg or Threshold...

Verbal warning for gratuitous use of shift + L. Posts are getting deleted next time---frogboy

Mister Agent
10-05-2008, 02:30 PM
Anyways...

Me and idraleo have been talking a little bit... and I think I want to edit this list into the beginning of the thread:

lands//22
2 underground sea
4 mutavault
2 faerie conclave
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
2 tundra
2 island
1 swamp
1 plains

creatures//13
3 mistbind clique
4 scion of oona
4 spellstutter sprite
2 sower of temptation

spells//25
4 bitterblossom
4 swords to plowshares
4 brainstorm
4 ancestral vision
4 force of will
2 spell snare/other counterspells
2 counterspell
1 fact or fiction


sideboard//
4 extirpate
4 disenchant
3 engineered explosives
4 circle: protection red/chill/bebs

In terms of technical utilization, I find that blue blasts are more relevant then chill and cop: red in the aggro loam and goblin matchup. Blue blasts actually takes care of the most table turning cards in both matchups. I mean countering or removing cards like countryside crusher, goblin lackey, goblin warchief, devastating dreams, and etc seems to be a good enough reason to run more blue blasts. Both chill and cop: red would be more relevant if people stopped running krosan grip but that's probably not going to happen anytime soon.

By the way how is your UGR thrash matchup teammate? I see that deck top 8 like nobodies business lately and the deck was a relevant factor in the most recent tournaments. I imagine that the land disruption package of UGR thrash could give you alot of fits. Postboard could get even more ugly with the typical hate Red thrash runs.

thefreakaccident
10-05-2008, 03:07 PM
In terms of technical utilization, I find that blue blasts are more relevant then chill and cop: red in the aggro loam and goblin matchup. Blue blasts actually takes care of the most table turning cards in both matchups. I mean countering or removing cards like countryside crusher, goblin lackey, goblin warchief, devastating dreams, and etc seems to be a good enough reason to run more blue blasts. Both chill and cop: red would be more relevant if people stopped running krosan grip but that's probably not going to happen anytime soon.

By the way how is your UGR thrash matchup teammate? I see that deck top 8 like nobodies business lately and the deck was a relevant factor in the most recent tournaments. I imagine that the land disruption package of UGR thrash could give you alot of fits. Postboard could get even more ugly with the typical hate Red thrash runs.



In order to play the deck, one must be able to shift gears very efficiently.

The red thresh MU is one of those MUs where this is not only necessary, but you cannot win without it.

I have actually been able to pull positive results by doing the following:

1. do not even try to go agro... they have 8 removal, and clasm in the board.

2. Use your cards as control cards, bait their stifles w/ fetches so you can win the long game w/ visions.

3. bitterblossom is your key card, letting you sit on it and do what you want for a long period of time.

I have been testing perish in my board, but it hasn't been too good... I guess it depends how much green you see... The card is an extreme beating against them though.

If you are seeing a lot of threshold and agro-loam, then mind-harness would be pretty solid.

My current sideboard looks like this (for a conventional meta, not mine):

4 engineered plague (goblins, ETW, ichorid, random other decks)
4 extirpate/tormod's crypt (depends on loam or ichorid)
3 disecnchant
4 blue elemental blast/mind harness


Mind harness can be extremely game breaking in certain circumstances... but again, it all depends on what your meta calls for you to have.


If my meta all of a sudden had a lot of survival/threshold/green what have you again, then I would be running perish again.

Also, about the threshold MU again... sitting on your creatures and playing around daze is key... it lets you stay in the game for the long haul, which they cannot even hope to do.

dude 666
10-05-2008, 04:12 PM
How is the combo matchup? It seems the relevant cards you have are 4x force of will, and once you hit two mana, sprite and counterspell. Perhaps you can fit in 4x thoughtseize (you also only play 4 turn1 plays)? It's good against combo and removing counterbalances, tops, and big creatures.

Also, what is shift + L supposed to mean in Idraleo's post :confused: ?

Edit: I only consider visions and spell snare as turn one plays, because even though you can play brainstorm and swords turn 1, you generally hold onto them and save them for later. So that's really only 6 turn 1 plays, and then only if you run spell snare.

thefreakaccident
10-05-2008, 04:17 PM
How is the combo matchup? It seems the relevant cards you have are 4x force of will, and once you hit two mana, sprite and counterspell. Perhaps you can fit in 4x thoughtseize (you also only play 4 turn1 plays)? It's good against combo and removing counterbalances, tops, and big creatures.

Also, what is shift + L supposed to mean in Idraleo's post :confused: ?

I have no idea what shift + L means...

Anyways, you are correct with your annalysis... basically, if we can get past turn 2, we are not going to lose that game (with 12 countermagic)...

For turn one, we have 6 countermagic we can play (snare and FoW)...

As far as one drops go, we essentially have 14, being:

4 swords
4 brainstorm
4 vision
2 snare

I will edit further content in about 10 minutes.


EDIT:

About combo:

We have 12 hard counters, and unless they combo in the first two turns, all oif our countermagic is relevent...

Also, since we can cast some of our crits EOT, this becomes very bad for them, as we can apply pressure without tapping anything on our own turn.

Also, about your concerns of turn one plays... it is true, but the deck is a lot more of a control deck than an agro-control deck... which is why this is true.

dude 666
10-05-2008, 06:07 PM
You should fill out your curve- it is good for consistency. Also, you only play 12 counters, and most combo decks play 3-4 duress/ thoughtseize and 4 chant. It seems that if they chant you, you're screwed. If you run thoughtseize of your own, then you have a good turn 1 play and can slow them down significantly.

How has testing gone against FT and TES? They have 7-8 protection spells and run cantrips to find them. Seems rough.

DalkonCledwin
10-05-2008, 06:57 PM
it just seems to me that if it weren't for the counterspells (such as FoW, Daze, and Counterspell itself) this deck would have a miserable game against pretty much any deck in Legacy... even Burn itself (considering Burn denies you any tasty targets for your Sower of Temptation in most cases (I mean you have Keldon Marauders with which you can do maybe 1 to 4 points of damage if your lucky, or Mogg Fanatic, which I can sac in response to Sower). So there pretty much isn't much I can see this deck doing.

This deck can't even reasonably play Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top seeing as how most of the cards cost more than the spells in most other decks....

The only advantage this deck would have against Burn decks, is if it were to play Blue Elemental Blast, Chill, or other anti-Red cards in the sideboard. And even that isn't garunteed as you can only assign like 2 or 3 slots to those spells in your sideboard (and if I knew you were packing Circle of Protection Red, I would be sure to pack Everlasting Torment!).

idraleo
10-05-2008, 07:12 PM
OT: Sorry for my shift+L, i did a copy/paste of a pm and forgot to undo my L. I use it in memory of a friend of mine, who' ve ever did the same thing...

thefreakaccident
10-05-2008, 07:46 PM
You should fill out your curve- it is good for consistency. Also, you only play 12 counters, and most combo decks play 3-4 duress/ thoughtseize and 4 chant. It seems that if they chant you, you're screwed. If you run thoughtseize of your own, then you have a good turn 1 play and can slow them down significantly.

How has testing gone against FT and TES? They have 7-8 protection spells and run cantrips to find them. Seems rough.

Threshold AND landstill only run 8 countermagic apiece... also, Daze is 4/8 of threshold's arsenal, which is far from a hard counter...

Against FT, I find it a lot more difficult to play against strictly b/c they have tutorability, whereas, TES does not...

Basically, if they do not have chant, you can force them to fizzle, then kill them.



As far as the rough game against anything in the format... imagine threshold w/out countermagic :eek: .

Anyways... This deck is a slower feel, but unlike landstill, this deck can shift gears very quickly, and end the game in a timely fashion.

If burn is a major concern in your meta, then just play extra bebs/chills in the board to buy more turns.


This deck thrives in most metagames, which is why it is such a good deck to pick up in most cases.

Once I get my MWS back up and running (I have a mac, and my brother has been too lazy to help me out with putting windows on it)...

I will gladly begin testing against all the big names (wasted life --> TES, Emidlin---> FT, Adan ---> threshold, and DIF ---> landstill)...

I don't know of the pioneers of agro-loam, fish, or dreadstill... but I will try and arrange something with them.

I will take this testing seriously, and will put up game logs/whathaveyou for you guys to see.

I think this would be a neat little experiment.

EDIT:

Also, I think I would put it in the community board, then put the link in the opening post here or something like that.

dude 666
10-05-2008, 08:21 PM
Threshold runs candtrips and/or thoughtseize. Not to mention providing a clock. Threshold runs 8 FREE counterspells. Also, not even gonna talk about countertop.

Landstill has an awesome draw-suite, sometimes stifle, sometimes ponder, sometimes spell snare, and other strategies to fuck with combo. Meddling mage and/or runed halo from the side. It also runs answers to ETW.

It seems you're a little worse off than landstill when playing against combo, something you can shore up with thoughtseize. Thoughtseize simply improves all your matchups, why wouldn't you run it?

thefreakaccident
10-05-2008, 09:07 PM
Threshold runs candtrips and/or thoughtseize. Not to mention providing a clock. Threshold runs 8 FREE counterspells. Also, not even gonna talk about countertop.

Landstill has an awesome draw-suite, sometimes stifle, sometimes ponder, sometimes spell snare, and other strategies to fuck with combo. Meddling mage and/or runed halo from the side. It also runs answers to ETW.

It seems you're a little worse off than landstill when playing against combo, something you can shore up with thoughtseize. Thoughtseize simply improves all your matchups, why wouldn't you run it?

What do you suggest to cut/trim for this slot?

I have nothing against the card... the list is just tight.

dude 666
10-05-2008, 09:15 PM
I tested visions and was never pleased with it. I hate dead late-game cards. However, if you insist on keeping it, I guess:
-1 Clique
-1 FoF
-2 Counterspell

+4 Thoughtseize

Also, I didn't test this, but riptide lab seems sick with sprite and clique. Recurring counterspells and/or timewalks? Seems stupid good. I'd probably cut conclaves for them, since you're not even playing standstill.

J.V.
10-05-2008, 09:28 PM
I don't know of the pioneers of agro-loam, fish, or dreadstill... but I will try and arrange something with them.

I'm not sure about fish or Aggro-Loam but for Dreadstill you should test against Roodmistah.

thefreakaccident
10-05-2008, 10:50 PM
I'm not sure about fish or Aggro-Loam but for Dreadstill you should test against Roodmistah.

Just PM'd him :cool:

nodahero
10-06-2008, 11:03 AM
I won't claim to be an amazing Aggro-Loam player although I have consistently played the deck since it was CAL in ext. so I do have a fairly long track record of playing Loam based decks. If you want to test send me a message.

Mister Agent
10-06-2008, 07:22 PM
Actually just for the record, testing against DIF playing with aggro loam could give you solid insight on how the matchup plays.

To be honest though, faeries does not seem like a optimal choice for a aggro loam infested meta not even in the slightest. Aggro loam has a amazing mid to late game compared to you. Considering they can kill your card advantage with terravore, thoughtseize, loam w/ wastes, and devastating dreams.

In theory at least, running both extirpate and tormod's crypt can be effective. It is also wise to be in a aggressive stance against aggro loam. Sower of temptation and even threads of disloyalty both fit this description. Both cards can actually turn the tables into your favor which is critical considering aggro loam has creatures that severely outclass your creatures on average.

ebbitten
10-06-2008, 08:19 PM
If your really planning on seeing a ton of aggro loam i would suggest mind harness+ a fairly tempo based version of the deck. Aggro loam has a sick late game, don't let it get there.

thefreakaccident
10-06-2008, 08:51 PM
The agro-loam MU is a rough one... but hardly unwinable.

If my meta was flooded w/ agro-loam, then I would play something like stompy or combo.

Actually, no body plays agro-loam in my meta... which I guess is a good thing.

I was just looking for a seasoned agro-loam player to test against... but I think Nihil will fill that roll.

The Rack
10-06-2008, 09:36 PM
What is your gameplan against AggroLoam? I'm assuming that resolved Devastating Dreams is GG for them and Mistbind isn't that great when they have Mox Diamonds and such. What is your current sideboard looking like?

thefreakaccident
10-07-2008, 12:03 AM
What is your gameplan against AggroLoam? I'm assuming that resolved Devastating Dreams is GG for them and Mistbind isn't that great when they have Mox Diamonds and such. What is your current sideboard looking like?

Well... With the current board:

4 engineered plague
4 extirpate
4 mind harness/beb
3 disenchant


I would usually board:

+4 extirpate
+4 mind harness

The de-board would usually look something like:

-3 mistbind clique
-1 standstill/FoF (test slot for mass draw spell)
-4 scion of oona

A resolved DD is a problem... but that is why we play so many countermagic spells... isn't it?

Preboard, mistbind is actually great in the mid-game... but we have so much to get into the deck, that once we have to start cutting faeries, he becomes a lot less sexy.

Usually, postboard... your plan looks like this:

1. take a dude/counter their dudes

2. extirpate loam

3. win


Usually in that order... at least, that is the game plan.

If you happen to run beb instead of harness, the plan becomes a little less aggressive, but the idea remains...

I used to run needle in my board, which also went a long way in this match, either hitting stronghold, wasteland, or assault.

Anyways... sure, DD is their most powerful tool against this deck, but that is only so devastating if it resolves :cool: .

There is a reason it is a DTB.

Daeniel
10-07-2008, 06:16 AM
I did some testing with a "standard" list, with 4 md Ancestral visions.. it's just me or it's, simply put, an horrible card in legacy?

I mean, sure, sometime they even resolve on tourn 4, but after several games I just decided that 4 Ponders where somehow better, even if they serve a different purpose. Any thoughts?

thefreakaccident
10-07-2008, 02:46 PM
I did some testing with a "standard" list, with 4 md Ancestral visions.. it's just me or it's, simply put, an horrible card in legacy?

I mean, sure, sometime they even resolve on tourn 4, but after several games I just decided that 4 Ponders where somehow better, even if they serve a different purpose. Any thoughts?



Ponder is a good card... but in a different way.

Perhaps in a more aggressive build... but for a more controlling build, we need CA... and ancestral vision usually gets the job done just fine, getting us to our gas right when we need it.

Mister Agent
10-07-2008, 03:07 PM
Well... With the current board:

4 engineered plague
4 extirpate
4 mind harness/beb
3 disenchant


I would usually board:

+4 extirpate
+4 mind harness

The de-board would usually look something like:

-3 mistbind clique
-1 standstill/FoF (test slot for mass draw spell)
-4 scion of oona

A resolved DD is a problem... but that is why we play so many countermagic spells... isn't it?

Preboard, mistbind is actually great in the mid-game... but we have so much to get into the deck, that once we have to start cutting faeries, he becomes a lot less sexy.

Usually, postboard... your plan looks like this:

1. take a dude/counter their dudes

2. extirpate loam

3. win


Usually in that order... at least, that is the game plan.

If you happen to run beb instead of harness, the plan becomes a little less aggressive, but the idea remains...

I used to run needle in my board, which also went a long way in this match, either hitting stronghold, wasteland, or assault.

Anyways... sure, DD is their most powerful tool against this deck, but that is only so devastating if it resolves :cool: .

There is a reason it is a DTB.

Aggro loam doesn't always need to resolve devastating dreams against you to win though. Aggro loam can outnumber you with their superior creature threats while wrecking your manabase with recurring wastelands. The loam archetype has several engines that can exploit just about any decks' weaknesses and their engines synergize well into one explosive package.

However, faeries does seem like a good choice for a varied metagame considering it has a disruption suite, plays threats, and runs lands. But then again their are alot of decks that fall under this category already like the mighty quinn, baseruption, and funkbrew.

As for being qualified as a deck to beat we will have to wait and see.

thefreakaccident
10-07-2008, 10:34 PM
I was saying that agro-loam is a DTB...

I hope that no body keeps misconceiving this deck... this is not an agro-control deck... it is a control deck that CAN go agro... there is a huge difference here that a lot of people do not seem to understand.

Its' primary function is that of a control deck.

Really, the only card in the deck that does not disrupt the opponent directly is scion... but scion allows us to protect our threats from removal, and can end the game in 1-3 turns after successfully cast.

I usually see agro-loam decks run 10-12 creatures, which is slightly less than our creature count... add into the fact that 3 of our creatures timewalk them, and 2 steal their creatures... the threat battle is easily won.

The true threat that agro-loam provides against faeries is LD and occasionally devastating dreams.


This problem can be sufficiently dealt with some times be simply running four basics and countering devastating dreams.

This however, is not always the case, which is why the MU looks bad from others' standpoints.

Hopefully, once I get to go into my matches, I will be able to explain better, and show everyone how the MU is supposed to play out.

thefreakaccident
10-19-2008, 03:13 AM
Don't mean to dub-post... but I have my first tourney report!!

I split for first with my most recent list... I will give a very brief report:

round 1:

Against Micheal, playing gwb life/black based agro control...

He has that silly daru-spiritualist/en-cor 'combo' in there, and has living wishes to fecth for the pieces, but he also has some crit removal, some divining tops, and discard...

Anyways, I won 2-0, he boarded in plagues, which I boarded disenchants for.

round 2:

Against Micheal's little brother Thomas, playing Urw fish...

He's got some small creatures, some removal, some cantrips, and some countermagia...

It is like red thresh w/ bad creatures instead of goyf/goose...
I would have won either way, but I went 2-0...

I won this game on the back that he didn't know that I could count mutavault as a faerie (he let a stutter resolve thinking it could not counter his dude, not counting mutavault when he could have dazed...)

round 3:

Against Charles... one of my better friends at the tourney (well, a teammate that is)... be decide that since there are only 9 people this time (usually around 15-19), we decide to safely draw into first/second since there are no other undefeated's after this round... a 2-0-1 record gives first/second...


I went on to play that MU later w/ his list and won 2-0... go figure :rolleyes: .


So I will not say that this is conclusive, just that it feels good to win with your pet deck in the very first tourney you enter with it.

Rascal
11-01-2008, 08:21 AM
Hi, I“m quite average player, but I really love legacy format and now faeries :o)
I decided to start in this metagame (Central Europe ) : http://www.cmus.cz/dnn/Fórum/tabid/54/forumid/52/scope/threads/Default.aspx

...with this: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20028

Is it right decision? What should be my strategy with this deck?

thefreakaccident
11-03-2008, 09:09 AM
You need to be able to deal with Tarmgoyf...

I don't really like the red splash all that much, as it doesn't really bring anything to the table...

Pyroclasm?

They hurt us more probably

REB?

We already beat other blue control/agro-control strategies

Burn?

It cannot kill the primary creatures in the format, and we do not need to quicken our clock.


I would say that black is better for several reasons:

1. GY hate... this is huge, as recursion is a pain in the ass.

2. BITTERBLOSSOM, this card is nuts... I rarely lose the game if I can keep one of these in play.

3. It is proactive instead of reactive... you can crack a fetch to get the swamp/underground and use it immediately, instead of waiting to burn shit.

Anyways... those are my thoughts.

Poron
11-03-2008, 10:18 AM
i have just a question. Why run Faerie over Merfolk? they have double lord, wake thrasher, they counter as much as faerie and they have indeed bigger bodies.

faerie would be better just for Shroud (with Scion)

jazzykat
11-03-2008, 11:05 AM
Having played Aggro-loam against faeries in a tournament a few times, I can safely say that albeit he seemed to be land screwed a few times (once was my doing) the deck is a steam roller over the little Fae people.

I think that the strategies against have been well covered but I need to reiterate keep seismic assault off the table. The only way to lose faster is to a 20/20 Terravore. Assault will mow down absolutely everyone of your creatures and it turns loam nearly into a Wrath of God.

thefreakaccident
11-03-2008, 12:47 PM
Having played Aggro-loam against faeries in a tournament a few times, I can safely say that albeit he seemed to be land screwed a few times (once was my doing) the deck is a steam roller over the little Fae people.

I think that the strategies against have been well covered but I need to reiterate keep seismic assault off the table. The only way to lose faster is to a 20/20 Terravore. Assault will mow down absolutely everyone of your creatures and it turns loam nearly into a Wrath of God.

You are right... Assault AND Devastating dreams are their true killers in this MU...

It is strange, as I have been feeling the exact opposite in this MU, basically raping agro-loam in most games... here are the things to look out for:

1. Fetch basics... loam doesn't matter any more if you can simply keep your mana flowing... this is why I play 5-6 basics in my current Faerie Build (dipping into the conclave slots for additional islands)...

2. They have a limited number of threats... If you can effectively control the board (bitter--> goyf/crusher, swords =everything, sower = win)... this leaves you with a situation where you need to counter their key spells to keep them off of board position (mainly DD and Assault), this gives you a very good chance at winning.

3. Use your bombs... LFTL is CA, but not CQ, their hand will always be full (of lands), so just focus on countering their threat spells. Your bombs (EOT Scion, Upkeep mistbind, 1st/2nd turn suspended vision) will win this game if they do not do something very quickly... remember, scions and sprites are your primary beatdown force in this game... as you can answer their card while applying pressure.


With all of these things in mind, you should be able to better prepare yourself for this MU, and eventually find that you can squeeze a lot more wins out of it than they can.

I am sorry I have not posted much here you guys... its' just that I have been too busy and have nut had the time to do much besides Prepare my MLG team in Halo 3.

Citrus-God
11-09-2008, 05:41 AM
I had some time on my hands to try on some bad ass Faerie action. The list I used was somewhat unconventional and was probably the most experimental list ever. So far I really liked it in testing. Against Landstill, it's a definite bye if I can get an opening hand with a good amount of land. Against Thresh, I would thrash that too (pun intended). ITF is a slight problem though. Anyways, here's my list...


// Lands 22
4 Faerie Conclave
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
2 Island


// Creatures 16
2 Ajani Goldmane
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Scion of Oona
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Mistbind Clique


// Spells 23
4 Brainstorm
4 Ancestral Vision/Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
3 Cryptic Command/Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Bitterblossom


// Sideboard 15
4 Duress
4 Relic of Progenitus
2 Hydroblast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Engineered Explosives


Simply put, Ajani Goldmane is amazing. I beat Landstill because of Ajani, I protected my men from Plague because of Ajani, I beat Aggro Loam pre-board because of Ajani, and I shore up a good portion of my Vial Goblins match up. Ajani is usually never sided out unless it's against Combo.

No Mutavault. I mulled way too many hands because of Mutavault and they made my midgames look bad by cloggy my hand with Cryptic Commands. Faerie Conclave may come into play tapped, but a lot of the times you have nothing to do in some turns. Also, the fact it has flying allows me to be aggressive. Although you may claim it may deem quite difficult to cast Mistbind Clique without Mutavaults, but you never cast them until near mid-late game anyways. In a deck like this, you tend to always have 6 mana on average when you cast it anyway. Besides that, Faerie Conclave wins me more games against Landstill post-Humility than Mutavault anyways.

Cryptic Command is amazing. The Fog effect is amazing. The bounce is amazing. The Counter is amazing. Cantriping is amazing. This is the card that helps you thrash decks like Thresh, ITF, and Landstill. Although, it sucks against combo... mehh...

I tested the draw engines. I really liked Fact or Fiction, actually. It's a better late game card. Ancestral Vision allows you to set up, yes, but so does Fact or Fiction. You plan on casting the draw when you want to refill anyway. I want to cast Fact or Fictions whenever I can. I tend to make consistent land drops anyways, so it doesnt matter when Visions resolves. I may be wrong, but as of now, I feel that FoF has won me way more games, especially against Threshold because of it's 4cc. Ancestral Visions is good, but I feel that my skill goes further if I play FoF.

Illissius
11-09-2008, 08:12 AM
I always found when I played a deck with Faeries that I very often wanted Mutavault to power up Spellstutter. I had less actual Faeries than you, though.

Citrus-God
11-09-2008, 02:44 PM
I always found when I played a deck with Faeries that I very often wanted Mutavault to power up Spellstutter. I had less actual Faeries than you, though.

What is your list? I may put Mutavauts back in after a bit more testing. For sure, if I'm running Mutavaults, I'm running more land (around 23-24 lands). The colorless-ness kinda makes my opening hands look sketchy.

idraleo
11-09-2008, 06:42 PM
...
4 Ancestral Vision/Fact or Fiction
...
3 Cryptic Command/Spell Snare




Why you compare those cards? There' s no matches between, they had differnet impact on the game and can' t be played because you like one much than the other. Cryptic is perfect if you fell that there will be an heavy stompy metagame (wich is almost favorable) and playing 4 FoF sounds completely ridiculous, any opening hand with 2 FoF is an automatic mulligan, and an epic fail too...

Jak
11-09-2008, 06:54 PM
Why do people keep thinking that a "/" means the cards are being compared? I think, what he was saying in his list, is that you can run Fact or Visions as your main CA spell. You can run Spell Snare (to stop stuff early) or go for Command to increase the strength of the late game.

I don't think he was trying to say that the cards do the same thing are are easily interchangeable. It probably depends on your meta.

Illissius
11-09-2008, 07:47 PM
What is your list? I may put Mutavauts back in after a bit more testing. For sure, if I'm running Mutavaults, I'm running more land (around 23-24 lands). The colorless-ness kinda makes my opening hands look sketchy.

As I said, it wasn't really a Faeries deck as much as a deck with Faeries in it. I believe my only Faeries were Blossoms, Spellstutters, a pair of V. Cliques, and Mutavaults.

Citrus-God
11-09-2008, 10:23 PM
Why you compare those cards? There' s no matches between, they had differnet impact on the game and can' t be played because you like one much than the other.

I tested those card choices unbiasedly and favored the card that deemed most consistent in winning me game statistically. Right now, I'm running a completely different list then the one I posted. It runs both Ancestral Vision and FoF as my draw suite.

As for Spell Snare and Cryptic Command, it's actually my metagame slot. I run Spell Snare in metas heavy on Aggro Loam and Thrash while I play Cryptic Command in metagames heavier on control decks like Landstill and ITF. Both are good against Counterbalance Threshold, is which is primarily why those 3 slots are dedicated against this deck.


Cryptic is perfect if you fell that there will be an heavy stompy metagame (wich is almost favorable) and playing 4 FoF sounds completely ridiculous, any opening hand with 2 FoF is an automatic mulligan, and an epic fail too...

I didnt say you should run a playset of FoFs. I would consider it if I'm moving my land count up to 24+ Lands. As for now, this is my current list


// Lands 22
4 Mutavault
3 Faerie Conclave
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
1 Island


// Creatures 14
4 Scion of Oona
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Mistbind Clique
2 Vendilion Clique


// Spells 25
4 Brainstorm
4 Ancestral Vision
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
2 Cryptic Command
2 Engineered Explosives/Oblivion Ring
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Bitterblossom


// Sideboard 15
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Engineered Explosives/Oblivion Ring
2 Ajani Goldmane
4 Meddling Mage
2 Hydroblast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Relic of Prognetus


Another option is to cut the Cryptic Commands and throw in another EE/Oblivion Ring and another FoF. Right now, I'm really impressed by EE at being able to handle problem threats like Nimble Mongoose and Goyfs. Oblivion Ring looks like something I should be testing right now, since it can remove Humility, which is awesome.

idraleo
11-10-2008, 06:36 AM
I don' t feel that run more non-blue cards such as OR will be the best thing to do, tap 3 mana at sorcery speed is not as good as it seems for this deck, and i don' t think that ring will throw some target as good that could justify his presence into maindeck.The only one i could think that will be a good target is Assault. I felt that running STifle was largely suitable, as it gives good chances against Pernicious and opponent E.E., and moreover it is another blue card to pitch on Force. I' ve ever felt right when i played this deck with less than 3 Stifle in my maindeck...

Citrus-God
11-11-2008, 12:04 PM
I don' t feel that run more non-blue cards such as OR will be the best thing to do, tap 3 mana at sorcery speed is not as good as it seems for this deck, and i don' t think that ring will throw some target as good that could justify his presence into maindeck.The only one i could think that will be a good target is Assault. I felt that running STifle was largely suitable, as it gives good chances against Pernicious and opponent E.E., and moreover it is another blue card to pitch on Force. I' ve ever felt right when i played this deck with less than 3 Stifle in my maindeck...

I can target Humilities, Engineered Plagues, Jittes, Enforcers, and such with Oblivion Ring. Of course, I cut Oblivion Rings from that slot. Turns out, I can run Vindicate instead, which is much better. And yes, Jittes, Plagues, Humilities, and such annoy me.

Of course, Stifle sounds like a brilliant idea as well. Although, I'm more in favor of Needle then at this point. Needles arent a one-for-one trade and is synthetic card advantage. Although, since you're running Stifles just to counter things, arent you better off running more counters in this slot? Like, counters can take care of things like Plague and Humility as well.

What does your deck look like at the moment?

idraleo
11-11-2008, 03:11 PM
I still play the same decklist of previos page, i did only some adjust related to the metagame i' m gonna to face, for example in a more controllish one i cut maindeck Sower to run Vendillion, or i did some sideboard adjustment, Canonist against combo based should be viable, or more Extirpate against Landstill, depends on how much decks that runs red is present and how much dedicated slots i can cut...

Citrus-God
11-12-2008, 09:36 PM
I tested Cryptic Command. It was amazing. After playing a ton of games with Cryptic Command, I realized how important manlands were because of it's awesome fog effect. Casting Cryptic Command and fogging, then proceeding to swing with a ridiculous amount of guys is insane. Besides that, the fog effect and a good number of man lands is enough to end the game.

I also figured Counters are better than removal considering removal cant protect your win conditions. Which is why I cut EE for Spell Snares. They can counter Counterbalance, Tarmogoyfs, Jittes, EE (assuming they walk into it), other Counterspells, Pyroclasm, Hymn to Tourach, Smother, Chainer's Edict, Diabolic Edict and etc... you get the shit I'm going to name.

The point is, all this deck wants are counters, threats, lands, and some draw. Removal and utility are obviously secondary.

As of now my deck packs 4 FoW, 3 Spell Snare, 3 Cryptic Command, 4 Spellstutter Sprites and 8 manlands.

Media314r8
11-19-2008, 10:46 PM
4 mutavaults seem like auto-ins, as they help spellstutter, (counters CMC 2 on turn three while on the play) and are 3/3 attackers with scion. Possibly 2 conclaves is the right number, but IMO the cip taped makes them terrible as the deck really wants to curve out BS/visions -> spellsutter/BB -> scion -> sower/mistbind, and a cip tapped land doesn't make up for a curve hiccup with evasion.

Elfrago
12-21-2008, 06:26 AM
Animate Dead targeting this thread!

This is the list I'm toying with:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [SHM] Island (1)
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [R] Underground Sea
1 [IA] Plains (3)
3 [R] Tundra
1 [U] Scrubland
2 [MOR] Mutavault

// Creatures
4 [LRW] Scion of Oona
4 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
3 [LRW] Sower of Temptation

// Spells
4 [CST] Brainstorm
2 [7E] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MOR] Bitterblossom
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
3 [NE] Daze
3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
1 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
1 [LG] Moat

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [FUT] Yixlid Jailer
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [US] Disenchant
SB: 3 [R] Blue Elemental Blast

I started with classic UB, then I slowly evolved to UWb.
Basically I noticed two things when playing the deck:
1) Bitterblossom won most of the games.
2) It had problems versus aggro.

So, looking on germagic I found out that someone tried Enlightened Tutor in the deck. It effectively searches for BB and Moat is usually GG versus most aggro decks. I tried it and never looked back.

Mutavaults are a last minute change, I still have to test them. I used to run Mishra's Factories in there. But Mishra's are powerful in multiples, so I thought that Mutavault was better as a two of.
I also have to try a Riptide Lab, it could be interesting.

Very few creatures, I tried both of the cliques but they were'nt impressive. Vendillion was mediocre, and Mistibind was even worse.

Spell's are rather self explanatory, Moat is so good, Oblivion Ring is there as a tutorable multi-purpose answer.

Sideboard is still a work-in-progress but I geared it towards aggro (with bebs and jittes) and Ichorid (tormods, jaylers, extirpates). Most of the cards I used are useful for more than a single matchup (i.e. Beb is useful versus DStompy, Burn and Gobs).

Let me know what you think, and feel free to ask if you want a more in-depth explanation.

Ashe
12-28-2008, 11:04 AM
I was thinking of testing this deck a bit more :wink: I've been playing it in T2 and Extended too, both the UB-version off course, I'm a sucker for Bitterblossom!

But I've seen people run the mono-u version over here and a lot of people splash for either tarmo-green or white.

Thoughts on what is the best way to go? I would surely go UB and maybe I can try out a splash but is it really needed? I haven't tested it in legacy so no clue :cool: ideas?

Blitzbold
02-08-2009, 03:53 AM
I tried a tri-colored Fearies.dec yesterday. Though it differs in both colors and choices, it looks more like Fearies then any other decktype, so I'm posting here.

My starting point was this list: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21677

4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendillion Clique
2 Trygon Predator

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Ponder

3 Bitterblossom
3 Smother

3 Aether Vial
2 Umezawa's Jitte

2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp
2 Mutavault
2 Wasteland

Sideboard
3 Engineered Plague
2 Extirpate
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Sower of Temptation
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt

In comparison to the original list the changes I made were:
-2 Trygon Predator
-1 Bitterblossom
-1 Standstill
-1 Smother
-1 Wasteland
+3 Vendilion Clique
+2 Ponder
+1 Island

I tried Vendilions in UGw Thresh a while ago and was quite impressed with them. 4 Predators felt like too much for my meta. With only 2 manlands and 3 Vials 4 Standstill seemed too many as well, and additionally I didn't like the flow of the deck, so I added the Ponders - which were golden whenever I drew them. Finally I exchanged 1 Wasteland for a basic Island as I like fetching basics agains unknown opponents.

I played against Gwr Enchantress (uh, didn't see that one for years!) - 2-1. G1 I lost to his CA after a long game. G2 Needle, Grip and a Jitte'd Predator won handily, and in G3 it felt like I countered everything while riding Goyf + Sprite to victory.

2nd match was against Aggro Loam - 2-0. G1 was long, but as I played Aggro Loam myself for quite some time I knew what to counter. Having Smothers for Goyf and Crusher certainly helped, too. G2 I won quickly with double Goyf + Jitte.

The next match I drew with a friend of mine. The evening before we helped each other finetuning our lists (he played Merfolk)... So we drew, I smashed him game 1 on the back of counters and Bitterblossom and then played some nice games of Highlander.

The last round I was paired against Klaus playing his progressive Landstill.list. I lost 2 very intense and quite close games, the only major mistake I can remember was needling Mishra's Facotry instead of Jace. He later admitted that he wouldn't have stood a chance otherwise. Well... next time, mate! :-)


Overall the list plays quite nice and I had much fun playing it. Suggestions are nevertheless welcome.

thefreakaccident
02-10-2009, 12:42 PM
I have been playing around with your list, and it is solid...

I have found that faeries, in order to survive the metagame, must make a shift in its' strategy. While it was a powerful control deck, it can become a much more powerful agro-control deck, and I really like the approach that you are taking with the deck...

I have in fact gone Ugb as well, although my list looks a little different from yours, they share a lot of the same things:

lands//19
4 mutavault
4 polluted delta
2 flooded strand
3 tropical island
1 swamp
2 underground sea
3 island


creatures//12
4 spellstutter sprite
4 tarmogoyf
2 vendilion clique
2 trygon predator

spells//29
4 force of will
4 bitterblossom
4 standstill
3 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 thoughtseize
3 smother
3 spell snare


sideboard// (still in progress)
4 extirpate
3 krosan grip
2 pernicious deed
3 blue elemental blast
3 propaganda (maybe)


I cut daze from the first lists of this version of faeries, as the list still likes to hit its' land drops... I play plenty of basics, and more cantrips (smooth out the draws, similar draw base as dreadstill)...

I cut the wastelands, as threshold's threats are quicker, and therefore the tempo 'boost' was just not high enough to warrant its' inclusion.


With clique and thoughtseize as 'discard' it helps me a lot, as it gives me a lot of information about my opponent... the combination of 6 'discard' and 11 countermagic has proved overpowering for combo decks to survive from.


I am glad that the archetype is not dying... although I find landstill far simpler to pilot, and do not own bitterblossoms any more, I hope you guys will be able to keep this one alive while I am forced to play landstill.

Blitzbold
02-10-2009, 01:33 PM
Playing 4 Manlands was a possibility I also considered. Those and the 4 Bitterblossoms justifies playing 4 Standstill. I like having the Wastelands, though, but they might not be needed ultimately.

Spell Snare and Thoughtseize are strong pieces of disruption, but nevertheless Dazes were great all through the day. I don't think that there is a "best package" of disruption and that one can vary one's deck here depending on the individual meta.

There is another thread espacially for this way of building Fearies named "Faestill" in the Development Forum. I think as the builds discussed here are more in the direction of Mono-U, discussing this type of deck over there is more appropriate.

Charlatan
02-12-2009, 07:55 AM
Hmm, I’ve been testing a MONO BLUEfaerie’s deck. This deck is very different from the decks that I had seen in this thread. I love run tempo decks. This is the following list that need some explanations:

// Lands = 18
12 Island
2 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Mutavault

// Creatures = 17
4 Scion of Oona
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Cloud of Faeries
3 Cursecatcher
2 Sower of Temptation

// Spells = 25
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Standstill
4 Stifle
2 Umezawa's jitte
1 Rushing River

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Back to Basics
SB: 3 Propaganda
SB: 2 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Hydroblast
SB: 4 Relic of Progenitus
You can add another cards, it depends on meta.


Lands: Nowadays manabase’s deck are crazy. A lot of aggro controls running all the colors, because they want a trciky spell in the right moment. But faeries can be different as Merfolk is. IMO if we run more baisc lands, we will have more chances to disrupt crazy manabases with our cards (SEE stifle & SB).

Scion of Oona: This guy pump and gives protection to your faeries. And he has flash, what made him more trickster. He can act as a counter against removals, or u can just cast in the pass. (Essential)
Spellstutter Sprite: This bitch is awesome, I hate when a player cast it against me. So disruptive and you have more 4 counters. Count with me we already have 8 virtual counters.
Cursecatcher: Ok, ok.... I Know, it isn’t a faerie, but it’s a great first turn drop, and is there because i fear combo decks. (11 virtuals counters)
Cloud of Faeries: that’s the creature who gives more tempo for this deck. It’s great in a second turn drop with standstill. Your oponnent just HAVE to brake standstill.
Sower of temptation: Ok, sometimes your creatures won’t deal with all the threads, so it’s great with Scion of Oona.

Brainstorm: You know why.
Force of Will: You know why.
Daze: You know why.
Standstill: Good sinergy with cloud of faeries, mutavault and falsh creatures.
Stifle: More tempo, man.
Rushing River:I hate fashion decks as T.A. :P
Umezawa's jitte: It's great as finisher, and against aggros deck. U can overun a lots of decks, just with it.

HdH_Cthulhu
02-12-2009, 08:55 AM
Why not run 4 Mutas? You have only Sower that requires UU so i think the manabase could suppurt 4, and it makes Standstill better.

And your list doesnt have lot of outs whene a tarmogoyf resolves on the other side of the table.
Maybe something like submerge?

elof
02-12-2009, 10:15 AM
I do miss Vendilion Clique in your list and also, is there any reason not to run Bitterblossom? Yes, it means you have to put in 2-3 Underground Sea but that card is so amazing and it combos alot with Scion!

Don't know what you should cut to fit it in though...

EDIT: Those 3 Cursecatchers could be Bitterblossoms. Then you only have to change -2 islands + 2 Underground Sea (or more if you like). You still have Daze and Stifle to protect the Seas and I don't really think you'll need him as a 1 drop. Might be wrong however...

Aj-capra
02-12-2009, 12:06 PM
@Charlatan in monoU list I think who standstill call aether vial.

I think who stifle is good if you play wasteland, othervise I prefer to play aether versus blue based decks.

@edit1 : brainstorm is better than ancestral vision in monoU list? Brain is better if you've standstill in play othervise I prefer to play ancestral in my first turn.

thefreakaccident
02-12-2009, 12:32 PM
Mono-blue lists really love to have a few vedalken shackles...

Stealing their crits to chump and flying over for some damage was savage tech against creature decks... it really pissed people off too.

My old Mono-blue list looked like this:

lands//22
4 mutavault
2 faerie conclave
10 island
3 flooded strand
3 polluted delta

artifacts//5
3 vedalken shackles
2 pithing needle

creatures//12
4 spellstutter sprite
4 scion of oona
2 vendilion clique
2 sower of temptation

spells//23
4 force of will
3 spell snare
4 ancestral visions
4 brainstorm
1 fact or fiction
3 repeal
2 counterspell


The list had a very tough time dealing with troublesome permanents (aside from crits), so I had added in needles (vial/manlands/deeds), and repeal as a tempo tool.

You could also use repeal on sprite every now and again, but it wasn't that great.

13 countermagia allowed me to control the gamestate until they took a turn off of playing things, then EOT scion came into play for the beatz...

I would probably cut 1 FoF and 1 repeal for 2 cyrptic commands though...



EDIT: elof is right though, bitterblossom is a powerhouse of a card, and wins most of our games for us.

Charlatan
02-12-2009, 02:11 PM
I do miss Vendilion Clique in your list and also, is there any reason not to run Bitterblossom?

My objective is to not get problems with wastelands and stifle, also B2B, that is my main Sb card will be ruined. And with blossom is -3 card to pitch with FoW.

@Aj-capra: I gt your point, but try to get this, i can make a good use from standstill running cloud of faeries, imagine, cloud, still with sprite and fow in hand... No wastelands, because i focus on B2B

Land Inquisition FTW!

elof
02-12-2009, 04:24 PM
My objective is to not get problems with wastelands and stifle, also B2B, that is my main Sb card will be ruined. And with blossom is -3 card to pitch with FoW.

I understand your wishes but I can't see the problem with losing 2 lands to a btb/waste every now and then. I think the games you win by playing Bitterblossom (and note, this would be the only black card) is far more than the games you lose to a waste/btb. I see no problems adding Bitterblossom and also -3 card to pitch to FoW in an ALL blue deck is a very poor argument that you can't possibly support... or did I miss something?

EDIT: There are 39 (!) blue spells in the deck ATM!

Charlatan
02-12-2009, 05:25 PM
Ok, I'll test, and post my opinion about it...

Ty!

Nicholas Gulledge
02-15-2009, 01:26 PM
Personally, I feel like the deck should go in a direction similar to the Extended Wiz-Fae lists, with only the most effective faeries + counters/draw. For example:

// Lands
4 [MOR] Mutavault
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
11 [P2] Island (3)
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
4 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
3 [LRW] Sower of Temptation

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [B] Counterspell
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [SC] Stifle
1 [LRW] Cryptic Command

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
SB: 3 [5E] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 2 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 3 [US] Arcane Laboratory

Charlatan
02-16-2009, 07:29 AM
Hey, now with volcanic Fallout, don't u think that is the end of this deck?

I don't see any way to win a game agains 4x Volcanic Fallout...

BEcause u just need 3x Scion in game, it's almost impossible...

Any tip against this card?

kicks_422
02-16-2009, 07:36 AM
Is it seeing play in Legacy? Because the only time that Volcanic Fallout is arguably a better choice over Pyroclasm is against Faeries. And I don't think people would pack their SB with Faeries hate.

Charlatan
02-16-2009, 08:02 AM
Is it seeing play in Legacy? Because the only time that Volcanic Fallout is arguably a better choice over Pyroclasm is against Faeries. And I don't think people would pack their SB with Faeries hate.

With merfolk's deck rising, i think that Volcanic will see play.

Nicholas Gulledge
02-16-2009, 01:05 PM
With merfolk's deck rising, i think that Volcanic will see play.

I don't.

Really, how many (good) decks in this format would even consider a 1RR spell to deal with creatures? Burn or Dragon Stompy are the only pre-exiting decks that would even bother, and neither one is even that good a deck in the first place. Once you consider pyroclasm, rolling earthquake, and cave-in are all barely good enough, it becomes even more apparent how unexciting Volcanic Fallout really is. None of the control or combo decks have any incentive to bother with the card, not while deed, e.e, etc exist.

Sure, fallout might see play, but only in bad decks.

Jak
03-16-2009, 12:31 AM
I saw Heezy's list and it really got me interested in trying this out. I threw together a Ub list, liked it, but figures I could add Swords over Smother, because it is just better. I liked the changed, but then I realized I could add a form of Artifact and Enchantment destruction. I then realized Vindicate is in my colors and fit in 2. I enjoyed playing with the deck but the only thing I want is a decent draw spell to refill my hand. Here is what I was running.

3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
3 Island
4 Mutavault

4 Dark Confidant
4 Bitterblossom
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Scion of Oona
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Sower of Temptation

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vindicate

4 Brainstorm

I like Scion because it protects Sower and beefs up the little 1/1s. Of course, you could take the deck a completely different way, like Heezy, and run Counterbalance/Top, Riptide Lab, etc, but I like the ability to play an eot dude, and win much faster.

thefreakaccident
03-17-2009, 01:43 PM
I really like this list... and I am very glad that pros are seeing this decks potential... I wonder who was right? :wink: ...


I like your list a lot... it is very good looking.

I think it could be a solid start for a list now a days.

Do you think that 20 lands is enough?

I like a few more cantrips in my builds, but who knows.

Jak
03-17-2009, 07:17 PM
It felt right. I never really have issues. It is mana hungry though so bumping it up to 21-22 may work better.

Anusien
03-22-2009, 01:59 PM
Has anyone experimented with Chrome Mox for turn 1 Spellstutter Sprite, Counterbalance, Bitterblossom, etc?

thefreakaccident
03-24-2009, 12:41 PM
The problem I have had in the past with incorporating chrome mox in anything other than stompy/combo is the added inconsistency it adds to the deck.

We don't have that much CA to work with, and all of our cards are usually too good to want to remove to the mox anyways...


I have been playing a different list as of late, and would like to hear people's opinion on it:

lands//20
3 mutavault
4 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
4 tundra
4 underground sea
2 island

creatures//12
2 sower of temptation
2 vendilion clique
4 spellstutter sprite
4 dark confidant

spells//28
4 swords to plowshares
2 vedalken shackles
3 bitterblossom

4 brainstorm
2 ponder
3 sensei's divining top

3 counterbalance
3 daze
4 force of will


sideboard//
4 scion of oona
4 engineered plague
4 staff of progenitus
3 disenchant



I came up with this idea in the NLU thread, and have been playing it since I conceived it.

The list really is something, as it has a great deal of consistency with the manabase, as well as an almost threshold cantrip base...

You have plenty of countermagic potential (4 FoW, 4 sprite, 3 daze, 3 CB)... and lots of board control options (3 bitterblossom, 2 shackles, 2 sower, 4 swords)...


This gives you a lot of good options to control the board against opposing agro and agro-control strategies...


Dark confidant really is a beast in the Uwb version... as with the almost threshold cantrip base and him, you can really get out with a huge advantage on cards in hand.


The clock is actually pretty fast, as you will usually have at least 2 creatures attacking at once, and you can somethimes just take a goyf and kill them w/ it.


The sideboard is a little odd, but I can explain...

Scion of oona

Sometimes you just have to be the beatdown against certain decks (control and combo I am looking at you)... this is when some of your cards (i.e. shackles/swords) are a little lackluster, so then you add in tricks as well as a clock...

Scion can be amazing against control (making bitter ungrippable), and he can allow you to add a huge amount to your clock EOT against combo... this can sometimes be extremely desireable in these MUs which is why I included it in my board...

Staff is for ichs/loam which is obvious, nothing to see here...


Plague is for ichs/merfolk/elves/merfolk...

Merfolk can be a pain in the ass if they get their LD options going, but if they don't, then you can control the game to an extent that they cannot survive from. Plague is versatile enough to be added to the board, as it helps all of those MUs.


The disenchants were recent, as I have been testing that slot w/ explosives, needles, and so forth... but I just like to have the good old fashioned disenchant every now and again, as you never know what they will draw that is not named/at the cc you put.

I think this is the best incarnation of the deck I have played to date, and I think that it has the potential to make waves in the format if it is given the chance.

Anusien
03-24-2009, 03:36 PM
By "inconsistency" you mean "sometimes the deck is really amazing and sometimes it's merely good instead of being merely good all the time", right? Adding a singleton Ancestral Recall will increase inconsistency too, but at the expense of power.
What if you added Chrome Mox and Thirst for Knowledge? TfK and Brainstorm give you a way to remove excess Tops, and then you can power out a TfK to make up for the lost cards.

Also, in what matchups do you actually want Bitterblossom? The life loss seems problematic without Jitte (especially with 7 fetchlands and Bob), and it seems straight-up worse than Vendilion Clique because it's not disruptive. I'd think Shackles would be so much better.

Shades
03-24-2009, 04:25 PM
I've build a pretty controlish version of Faeries and like it a lot right now. I actually think, that Ancestral Visions is a great draw spell in Legacy, too. Thirst forces me to play such things as Chrome Moxen, which I don't want to play.
I play straight UG which gives me the power of Tarmogoyf and Krosan Grip, as well as a pretty sick manabase.
Here's the list:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Sower of Temptation

4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
1 Cryptic Command
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm

2 Engineered explosives
2 VEdalken Shackles

4 Mutavault
2 Riptide Laboratory
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
5 Island

Sideboard: (untested first try)
4 Krosan Grip
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Relic of Progenitus/T. Crypt
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sower of Temptation

The deck plays out pretty well, I've beaten lots of decks on MWS, if that means anything... ;>

Jak
03-24-2009, 05:17 PM
By "inconsistency" you mean "sometimes the deck is really amazing and sometimes it's merely good instead of being merely good all the time", right? Adding a singleton Ancestral Recall will increase inconsistency too, but at the expense of power.
What if you added Chrome Mox and Thirst for Knowledge? TfK and Brainstorm give you a way to remove excess Tops, and then you can power out a TfK to make up for the lost cards.

Also, in what matchups do you actually want Bitterblossom? The life loss seems problematic without Jitte (especially with 7 fetchlands and Bob), and it seems straight-up worse than Vendilion Clique because it's not disruptive. I'd think Shackles would be so much better.

I tried Chrome Mox since that and TfK was something I really liked. It allows the deck to get a quick start but the problem then is not being able to kill fast enough. The deck isn't that fast. Even with a first turn Chrome Mox it is slow. This ends up just giving you dead draws later in the game. It also took up slots that I didn't want it to. 18 lands and 4 mox was good, but 20 lands works just as well but I can fill those slots with Vindicate.

TfK was never really as great as I thought either. I need more artifacts and that takes away from the creatures or control cards.

Heezy's build utilizes both pretty well.

thefreakaccident
03-25-2009, 01:18 PM
By "inconsistency" you mean "sometimes the deck is really amazing and sometimes it's merely good instead of being merely good all the time", right? Adding a singleton Ancestral Recall will increase inconsistency too, but at the expense of power.
What if you added Chrome Mox and Thirst for Knowledge? TfK and Brainstorm give you a way to remove excess Tops, and then you can power out a TfK to make up for the lost cards.

Also, in what matchups do you actually want Bitterblossom? The life loss seems problematic without Jitte (especially with 7 fetchlands and Bob), and it seems straight-up worse than Vendilion Clique because it's not disruptive. I'd think Shackles would be so much better.

By inconsistency I meant that it is a shitty topdeck in the late/midgame... and sometimes the only things you can remove are the things you would want to play...

About bitterblossom... the card can serve two roles:
1. kill your opponent in the air in a matter of ~5 turns (1, 2, 3, 4, 5), as well as fueling sprite, and can be a force field in some circumstances... the card is way too overpowered not to include in any faerie deck.

TFK would be interesting, but it is a matter of slots in the deck... you need the lands not to be non-island besides the mutavaults, so seat of the synod is not an option... having multiple tops is usually a good thing, so pitching one is usually a bad thing, and getting rid of shackles is kind of stupid just to get +1 CA instead of 0...

I think TFK is a good card, but only in a deck that has excess artifacts that it can afford to get rid of... this is not one of those decks.

I run both shackles and blossom (steal their dude to clog up the ground, kill them in the air)...

The lifeloss has only been an issue against burn, but it is not a meta concern... and CB/top usually wins that MU anyways (I don't care what people say about playing around it, a good blue player will always win this war of attrition once they've got the lock).

Citrus-God
03-30-2009, 01:54 PM
I tested Bitterblossom... As much as I love Bitterblossom, it only shines Turn early game. Lately, I've been testing Trinket Mage in it's place; it's a much more effective threat that doubles as an answer, and it fixes a lot of your problems. Here's my sweet list so far;


// Lands 22
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
1 Riptide Laboratory
4 Mutavault
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
4 Island
1 Seat of the Synod


// Creatures 13
4 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Vendellion Clique
3 Sower of Temptation
3 Trinket Mage


// Spells 25
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sigil of Distinction


// Sideboard 15
3 Duress
3 Krosan Grip
3 Perish
3 Engineered Plague
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Meekstone/Executioner's Capsule
1 Tormod's Crypt


The need to make Spellstutter Sprite a hard counter is negated by the effectiveness of Counterbalance in the late game. Having a mana curve of

1cc: 14
2cc: 8
3cc: 8
4cc: 3
5cc: 4

Allows me to make a resolved Counterbalance more threatening. So this means Spellstutter Sprite is a tempo counter. Counter whatever somewhat useful card you can with them. This includes Goyfs, Geese, Shackles; just counter it.

Tolaria West is a great addition. It finds you EE, Sigil, Academy Ruins and Riptide Lab. It ensures your Academy Ruins + EE lock as well. This used to be a 2nd Lab, but I figured you only really ever need one Lab in play anyway.

Seat of the Synod is there because I found myself wanting to tutor up extra mana quite often with Trinket Mage. This helps.

Ponders are amazing, although, I may a copy for a 4th SDT.


Trinket Mage: Usually it's situation dependent, but being able to tutor up removal, card advantage, equipment, mana and such makes Trinket Mage such a powerful win small card. Being able to grab equipment to make Mutavaults look angry, or making a flying Spellstutter Sprite can be quite rewarding. Just tutoring up SDTs just for the sake of drawing extra cards and doing Top tricks is pretty sweet too. I also found situations where I frequently tutor up Seat of the Synod as well. Extra land is always nice; being able to attack with Mutavaults is awesome.

3 Sowers + 2 Shackles: My creature control. Also, being able to use Riptide Lab to protect Sower is pretty sweet too.

Anusien
04-01-2009, 11:11 AM
Isn't Jitte straight-up better in the maindeck than Engineered Explosives or Sigil of Distinction? I find myself liking EE less and less, especially as I diversify my curve even more (meaning I can't blow it safely). Sure I can EE @ 2 and leave my Vendilion Clique to hit their Goyf and Counterbalance, but I'd rather just Shackles their Goyf and beat down.

sauce
04-01-2009, 11:15 AM
Isn't Jitte straight-up better in the maindeck than Engineered Explosives or Sigil of Distinction? I find myself liking EE less and less, especially as I diversify my curve even more (meaning I can't blow it safely). Sure I can EE @ 2 and leave my Vendilion Clique to hit their Goyf and Counterbalance, but I'd rather just Shackles their Goyf and beat down.


Jitte is better but Trinket mage cannot tutor it up like he can w/ Sigil.
I agree, ee is not that good in this deck, you got air superiority, what are you trying to blow up... I would rather play a Trygon predator.

Jujuhawk
04-01-2009, 11:22 AM
snip, for less long quotes and more justice.

Counterbalance seems totally terrible in that list. You are playing approximately INFINITE 3's, and less 2's, and 2 is probably the most relavent number for counterbalance, and 3, while still important, is much much less relevant. Varying your mana costs so much doesn't make the card better at all. You are playing 8 2's, and with CB out you have 7 left. We're assuming you're going to play 1 SSprite, so that leaves 6. I don't think you can expect to counter 2's with 6 2's left in your deck.

Sigil seems very unnecessary, as this deck seems like it wants to just lock up the game with counterbalance and serve with little dudes like SSprite, and clique. Sigil should probably just be a 2nd explosives, or just make the sigil and something else a jitte, so at least you have some out to a permanent other than EE.

You're also running a do-nothing cantrip in ponder, which seems very unnecessary in this deck. You're playing 22 lands, and you don't need to fill your graveyard. Sure, it sets up your draws, but so do brainstorm and top, which should probably both be 4-of's anyway.

5 Control magic effects are sort of redundant and clunky. You're playing very few islands, and if you get a land wasted you can easily just have shackles completely shut off from stealing goyf.

Green should probably just be cut in favor of white, and something like STP should be in place of the do-nothings in your deck. Basically I just want the list to look like heezy's deck from chicago, but you don't necessarily need the moxes, and TFK is pretty awkward and clunky.

Anusien
04-01-2009, 01:20 PM
Counterbalance seems totally terrible in that list. You are playing approximately INFINITE 3's, and less 2's, and 2 is probably the most relavent number for counterbalance, and 3, while still important, is much much less relevant. Varying your mana costs so much doesn't make the card better at all. You are playing 8 2's, and with CB out you have 7 left. We're assuming you're going to play 1 SSprite, so that leaves 6. I don't think you can expect to counter 2's with 6 2's left in your deck.
Having a bunch of 2s becomes less necessary when you have 3+ Spell Snares. But I agree, I think Jitte is far better than Sigil and EE; that gives you more 2s!


5 Control magic effects are sort of redundant and clunky. You're playing very few islands, and if you get a land wasted you can easily just have shackles completely shut off from stealing goyf.
Nassif ran 4 and Probasco ran 5. Specifically, if you run all these Sowers and things, you don't have to run terrible cards like StP. If you absolutely need StP, you should run it. But if you can keep up with the beatdown decks without it, you shouldn't play awkward splashed 1 for 1s.

I agree that I don't like Trinket Mage, but it's because I just don't think it does enough. You have a bunch of really awkward, three-mana sorcery speed tutoring. I'd rather cut the Trinket Mages for the 4th Vendilion Clique and more artifacts. You end up not running better cards (Jitte) in favor of harmonizing with shitty 1 and 0 drops (Sigil of Distinction, EE).

Edit: Also, have you played the deck with Chrome Mox and Thirst for Knowledge in it? I don't think it's nearly as awkward as you think.

Citrus-God
04-01-2009, 01:27 PM
Anusien: Jitte is good, but EE does more dirty work for you. Now, here's the reasoning on why I use EE;

1. It blows up opposing Counterbalances.
2. It blows up Plagues.
3. It blows up Jittes.
4. It blows up Mongeese.
5. It blows random shit up.

Also, whenever I set up EEs, it never hits my threats outside of Sprites and Counterbalance, but Sprites can be bounced and Counterbalance can be found and replaced.

@Sauce: Trygon is good... but it can get Sowered, Shackled, and Swords'd. You also cant recur Trygon with Academy Ruins.

@Jujuhawk: The list was based on Probasco's NLU, which has only 8cc cards in there. I never found it as a problem because

against Landstill, the only 2c cards I want to counter are

Counterspell and Standstill. That's it. Counterspells often dont win counter wars for them much and Standstills have a hard time being played.

against Thresh, I only want to counter Goyf, Counterbalance and maybe Bob. Bobs and Goyfs can be stolen, Counterbalance can also get answered by Spell Snare outside of the 2cc cards.


And the few Islands is made up by running Ponder, which does fix my draws and ensures I hit multiple Islands and make cards like Shackles and Sower great cards. They aren't clunky because once they're cast, they make card advantage in the long run.


As a final note, I think it's quite obvious that Probasco's list is heavily influencing my list. They both play the same way, but I run a more counter heavy base. Of course, if I wanted to up the 2cc count, I could start testing Jitte in place of two cards which happens to be great creature control. I could replace a Ponder and a Sigil with Jitte. Though, I've had great testing results with Sigil, Jitte is obviously the better card. Also, being a 2c card and that I'm running two copies should make it much useful.

P.S. Since I'm running Trinket Mage, I'm thinking of putting some number of Chalices in the sideboard for match ups like Burn, Loam and other various things.

Anusien
04-01-2009, 01:35 PM
Anusien: Jitte is good, but EE does more dirty work for you. Now, here's the reasoning on why I use EE;

1. It blows up opposing Counterbalances.
2. It blows up Plagues.
3. It blows up Jittes.
4. It blows up Mongeese.
5. It blows random shit up.
If you've successfully resolved a Trinket Mage against Counterbalance, you can probably just win with Vendilion Clique or Sower/Shackles. It would be nice to have, but I might rather just have Venser or Cryptic Command instead. Just because the opponent has Plague/Mongeese doesn't mean they have to be killed. And running EE main to hit SB Plagues are silly.

Yes, you can use EE effectively. But most of its targets are Krosan Grippable, and for far less mana. I think you may have better luck with that approach. And I can't really imagine wanting to kill my own Counterbalance. Yes, I could find another one, but I play my blue decks like Counterbalance combo decks...

Blitzbold
04-01-2009, 01:39 PM
Having a bunch of 2s becomes less necessary when you have 3+ Spell Snares. But I agree, I think Jitte is far better than Sigil and EE; that gives you more 2s!

+1. Jitte also doubles as removal in case you need some.

But EE is too versatile to be cut in my opinion. I'd cut the Mages, Needle and Sigil, adding 2x Jitte, 1x Explosives, 1 Clique and maybe 1 Krosan Grip.



Edit: Also, have you played the deck with Chrome Mox and Thirst for Knowledge in it? I don't think it's nearly as awkward as you think.

Another idea would be to replace the Ponders and one other card (maybe reducing Trinket Mages to 2) with 4 Ancestral Vision.

Jujuhawk
04-01-2009, 03:24 PM
Having a bunch of 2s becomes less necessary when you have 3+ Spell Snares. But I agree, I think Jitte is far better than Sigil and EE; that gives you more 2s!


Nassif ran 4 and Probasco ran 5. Specifically, if you run all these Sowers and things, you don't have to run terrible cards like StP. If you absolutely need StP, you should run it. But if you can keep up with the beatdown decks without it, you shouldn't play awkward splashed 1 for 1s.

I agree that I don't like Trinket Mage, but it's because I just don't think it does enough. You have a bunch of really awkward, three-mana sorcery speed tutoring. I'd rather cut the Trinket Mages for the 4th Vendilion Clique and more artifacts. You end up not running better cards (Jitte) in favor of harmonizing with shitty 1 and 0 drops (Sigil of Distinction, EE).

Edit: Also, have you played the deck with Chrome Mox and Thirst for Knowledge in it? I don't think it's nearly as awkward as you think.

I have played a deck with mox and thirst, I've tested heezy's faeries list, and something very similar before the GP (black > white, and smother > swords basically)

Essentially the lists I've seen are just NLU with spellstutter sprite, which seems so unnecessary. Why not just play NLU and play bob? Bob gives you more card advantage, and can actually serve. I think spellstutter fits better in a tempo oriented deck with jittes and vials or something. In 1.5 Playing nlu with SSprite and 6 colorless lands just makes the deck awkward imo :\.

Anusien
04-01-2009, 03:51 PM
Because Bob is terrible? I wouldn't run it in NLU and I certainly wouldn't run it here.

The reason to play a Mox build is because turn 1 Spellstutter Sprite is ridiculous, and because it's really easy to overwhelm an opponent who doesn't have CB with Thirst for Knowledge.

jazzykat
04-01-2009, 04:28 PM
Because Bob is terrible? I wouldn't run it in NLU and I certainly wouldn't run it here.


I don't know how to respond to that allegation. Please qualify it.

sauce
04-01-2009, 06:04 PM
I don't know how to respond to that allegation. Please qualify it.

I do. You just scroll up and see he called Swords to Plowshares a terrible card.
After that he called Bob terrible, do you even need to read more?

Anusien
04-02-2009, 12:43 AM
I don't know how to respond to that allegation. Please qualify it.
The best way to win the Counterbalance mirror is to run 3s and 4s. That doesn't play well with Bob. Besides your goal in a lot of those matchups is to play and sit on Counterbalance for tons of turns, being extremely patient and letting up an unlosable board position. Dark Confidant actively prevents that. If I play a Goyf and you play a Goyf and a Bob, you're on a clock and have to blink first.

And as for Swords, if Andy Probasco can get 2nd at the GP without StP, it strongly makes a case that it isn't necessary.

jazzykat
04-02-2009, 01:07 AM
IMO best way to win the counterbalance mirror is with MD Grip and/or Trygon Predators.

Probasco's list didn't have swords or confidant and Nassif's had both...

While my experience with NL Painter is proving out that StP may be unnecessary for certain non combo applications I can't disagree more with you about Confidant. I will gladly take an "even" board where you have a goyf and I have a goyf and Confidant. I will bury you in CA and sooner or later I will stick a top, or use cantrips to avoid damage. So even if I draw into that 4 cc, like a sower to steal your goyf... or a grip to smoke your counterbalance... How is that not worth 3 or 4 life? I'd give my left testicle to jack an opponents tarmogoyf when I have 6+ (tgoyf+bob) on my side waiting to get through that turn, nevermind that it's gg the next turn...

For dramatic comparison: Necropotence and Yawgmoth's Bargain cost you life to draw cards and you don't hear anybody saying they're bad...

Honestly, I'm flabergasted that you hold to that claim. If you made a statement like confidant is too fragile or something then I could understand it, while not agreeing with it.

zulander
04-02-2009, 01:29 AM
It just seems to me that Merfolk are better than Faeries, what's the upside in playing faeries?

Jak
04-02-2009, 01:39 AM
It just seems to me that Merfolk are better than Faeries, what's the upside in playing faeries?

Creatures with built in disruption, more room for stuff like CB, flying, etc.

HammafistRoob
04-02-2009, 02:36 AM
Instant speed creatures are pretty savage too. Especially against Standstill which Merfolk runs.

sauce
04-02-2009, 09:21 AM
Instant speed creatures are pretty savage too. Especially against Standstill which Merfolk runs.

merfolk has instant speed creatures too in the form of aether vial though

Jujuhawk
04-02-2009, 10:32 AM
And as for Swords, if Andy Probasco can get 2nd at the GP without StP, it strongly makes a case that it isn't necessary.

Nassif played a grip of swords, and he won. Your point? I'm sure the ammount of players playing STP > not playing STP, and LSV, GerryT, and David Ochoa all played nassif's same 75, and I'd probably take any of their lists over Andy's.

Anusien
04-02-2009, 11:38 AM
Nassif played a grip of swords, and he won. Your point? I'm sure the ammount of players playing STP > not playing STP, and LSV, GerryT, and David Ochoa all played nassif's same 75, and I'd probably take any of their lists over Andy's.
Interestingly enough, Probasco played and beat both David Ochoa and LSV, playing the same maindeck as Nassif. If you look at the final match, it's pretty obvious how little Swords to Plowshares factored into it. So saying "Nassif played StP and he won, so StP must be right" is a pretty terrible argument. But Probasco going 9-0 without Swords to Plowshares on day 1 makes it seem pretty clear that StP is not necessary to beat most decks.

The advantages of Faeries over Merfolk:
1) More disruption. Merfolk has Cursecatcher which is nice, but not amazing. Faeries gets Spellstutter Sprite and Vendilion Clique.
2) More powerful individual cards. It's not unreaonable for a single Clique to go all the way. I'd be surprised if any individual Merfolk did.
3) More room for powerful cards: talking Counterbalance, Sower, Jitte.
4) Flight is better than Islandwalk against the non-CB decks.
5) Riptide Lab is really good over the long term.


I can't disagree more with you about Confidant. I will gladly take an "even" board where you have a goyf and I have a goyf and Confidant. I will bury you in CA and sooner or later I will stick a top, or use cantrips to avoid damage. So even if I draw into that 4 cc, like a sower to steal your goyf... or a grip to smoke your counterbalance... How is that not worth 3 or 4 life? I'd give my left testicle to jack an opponents tarmogoyf when I have 6+ (tgoyf+bob) on my side waiting to get through that turn, nevermind that it's gg the next turn...
Bob loses to every trump in the CB mirror. He loses to Shackles, he loses to Spell Snare, he loses to CB, he loses to Sower, he loses to Threads, etc. About the only relevant trump he doesn't lose to is Krosan Grip. Remember that I'm not just saying "I wouldn't run Bob in this deck" but also "I would rather run other cards". The extra cards I would run are generally extra counterspells or Krosan Grips or control Magic effects.
But yes, generally I don't like Bob. A lot of times he does you a lot of damage and draws you some irrelevant cards. He forces you into making these awkward attacks just because you have a clock on you. Generally what seems to happen is that one guy gets Bob advantage and the other guy gets Counterbalance advantage.



For dramatic comparison: Necropotence and Yawgmoth's Bargain cost you life to draw cards and you don't hear anybody saying they're bad...
That's completely a fair and unbiased comparison. For the record, I wouldn't play Necropotence in NLU either. I would play Necro in combo, and I would play Dark Confidant in whatever Tombstalker deck.

Aj-capra
04-02-2009, 01:58 PM
Today I played thi list:


// Lands 22
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
1 Riptide Laboratory
4 Mutavault
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
4 Island
1 Seat of the Synod


// Creatures 13
4 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Vendellion Clique
3 Sower of Temptation
3 Trinket Mage


// Spells 25
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sigil of Distinction


// Sideboard 15
3 Duress
3 Krosan Grip
3 Perish
3 Engineered Plague
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Meekstone/Executioner's Capsule
1 Tormod's Crypt

Sd : -3 plague + 3 hydroblast
Md : -1 Seat of the Synod + 1 swamp

I think who this list is very good because for cb we got cc = 1/2/3/4/5. This list isnt fast to play because is a very contro list, but I think who versur tier1 is better than other list.
I cut 1 sower for 1 relic main too. Five control creatures are too much.

Jujuhawk
04-03-2009, 12:25 AM
Interestingly enough, Probasco played and beat both David Ochoa and LSV, playing the same maindeck as Nassif. If you look at the final match, it's pretty obvious how little Swords to Plowshares factored into it. So saying "Nassif played StP and he won, so StP must be right" is a pretty terrible argument. But Probasco going 9-0 without Swords to Plowshares on day 1 makes it seem pretty clear that StP is not necessary to beat most decks.

Okay, one person going 9-0 without swords and saying it's completely correct is just as bad of an argument. Just because it wasn't relevant in the mirror doesn't mean it is bad.

Anusien
04-03-2009, 10:22 AM
Okay, one person going 9-0 without swords and saying it's completely correct is just as bad of an argument. Just because it wasn't relevant in the mirror doesn't mean it is bad.
Dunno, I feel like beating almost everybody you face into the finals of a GP makes a strong argument that it isn't needed. The only counter-argument would be he lost because he didn't have the card, but that's clearly untrue since not only would it not have been relevant, but it's not needed in the matchup, seeing as how he got pretty damn unlucky and lost, and because he beat two other people playing 58/60 in the maindeck.

Moreover, I think StP is pretty piss-poor in this deck. I'd rather add Tarmogoyf before I'd add StP because I think the place you might need the extra help is against beatdown, not against Tarmogoyf decks.

Blitzbold
04-03-2009, 11:55 AM
I am trying to merge the lists mentioned in posts #153 and #156 of this thread.

Basically the first one omitts CB / Top for a wide range of counterspells, Ancestrel Visions and Tarmogoyfs while the second one doesn't plays Goyfs, but includes CB / Top as well as the Trinket Mage package similar as Andy Probbasco did.

I like Shade's list for the Goyfs and the Visions, but like the second one for the CB / Top-package.

This is my result of this experiment so far:

4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Sower of Temptation

3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Engineered Explosives

5 Island
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Mutavault
1 Academy Ruins
1 Riptide Laboratory

SB 3 Blue Elemental Blast
SB 3 Krosan Grip
SB 2 Duress
SB 2 Engineered Plague
SB 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB 1 Piting Needle
SB 1 Umezawa's Jitte

Now, I think that I don't need the Ponders in there, but playing some sorceries of my own, possibly pumping Goyfs, would be nice. What could be cut to replace the Ponders and said card with 4 Ancestral Visions? Another possibility would be to replace the Ponders with 3 Thoughtseizes, which also means that I can cut down on the Duresses in the SB.

Additionally I'd like to play Jitte in the Main as it fulfills multiple rolls in such a build, namely creature control, life gain and adding to my own clock. Especcially creature control I found to be at least nice-to-have in the metas I usually play in.

thefreakaccident
04-03-2009, 12:44 PM
WoW... this thread is going a little off-topic for my tastes...


Anyways, I played in a small unsanctioned tournament that I threw together to a 4-0 finish, beating burn, threshold, pikula, and rg beats (not in that order)...

My most recent list has been phenomenal for me... there are some notable things to say about it though...

I cut bitterblossom!

I have been a strong advocate of the card for a long time, but the list I was running a while back simply had way too much pain... between fetches, bobs, and bitterblossoms, something had to be cut...

So, then I obviously had to choose between bob and blossom.

I found that bob's CA has won me many more games than blossom, and that I could never really support both, so I cut blossom from the list.


Here is the list that I ran:

lands//20
3 tundra
3 underground sea
4 island
4 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
3 mutavault

creatures//15
4 dark confidant
4 spellstutter sprite
3 scion of oona
2 vendilion clique
2 sower of temptation

spells//25
4 brainstorm
3 sensei's divining top
2 ponder

2 vedalken shackles
4 swords to plowshares

3 daze
3 counterbalance
4 force of will


The list was super aggressive with the addition of scion (with a total of 14 faeries, it can make a clock with the draw in the deck)...


I won all of the matches in the tournament 2-0 except the burn MU, which I had to go into game 3 with (price of progress)...

I think the deck is really doing great, and hopefully others will be able to pick it up in the near future.


A change that seems interesting that you guys seem to be going towards is: -4 swords -3 tundra +4 goyf +3 tropical island, but with the amounts of beats already in the deck, is the addition of goyf even necessary? Wouldn't we want more disruption if our clock is already sufficient?

Only testing will tell!


EDIT: Blossom is still awesome, but not w/ bob.

AND BOB AND SWORDS ARE AWESOME, that's why they are so common in the format.


EDIT2: The major difference between this and merfolk is similar to the difference in regular threshold and tempo threshold... we trade the manabase disruption for additional board manipulation, card draw, and countermagia... they rely on 1 of two opening combinations (vial/creature + standstill... or waste + stifle + creature) to put themselves far ahead on the board... we stall until we provide a situation where the opponent cannot win the game via superior amounts of threats or disruption...

They both have their own merits, lets not compare their strategies simply because they are both blue tribal decks.

Anusien
04-03-2009, 12:45 PM
All these lists seem to have 3 Spell Snare. Can someone explain that to me, why that choice seems to be near-universal?

Citrus-God
04-03-2009, 12:54 PM
All these lists seem to have 3 Spell Snare. Can someone explain that to me, why that choice seems to be near-universal?

Because the format is 2cc... Also, it's better than Swords to Plowshares; at least it can counter Counterbalance.


@thefreakaccident: It's not that off topic; our lists look somewhat similar.


Edit. I have another build I'm experimenting with. It utilizes Counterbalance and it is much more aggressive. After having tested Cryptic Command a lot, I have came to a liking it seeing as I could tap all my opponents creatures so I can win the damage race, bounce an opposing Counterbalance or threat or I can counter something sweet.


// Lands 23
4 Mutavault
2 Riptide Laboratory
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Island


// Creatures 14
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendelion Clique
3 Sower of Temptation


// Spells 23
4 Brainstorm
3 Sense's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
2 Vedalken Shackle
3 Spell Snare
3 Cryptic Command
4 Force of Will


// Sideboard 15
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Krosan Grip
4 Pyroclasm
3 Mistbind Clique


The addition of Mistbind Clique is amazing. I can finally thrash Aggro Loam, regularly. But, sadly, you only ever board Mistbind Cliques in against Aggro Loam, Control and combo. other than that, probably not much else, so make this your flex slot.

Anusien
04-03-2009, 04:27 PM
Because the format is 2cc... Also, it's better than Swords to Plowshares; at least it can counter Counterbalance.
Then why do none of the lists run 4?

thefreakaccident
04-03-2009, 04:48 PM
Then why do none of the lists run 4?

Because while it is a very good card in the format, it doesn't stop everything...

I run it in decks like landstill and threshold who need the additional counters, it fills the gaps pretty well.

Citrus-God
04-04-2009, 01:22 AM
Then why do none of the lists run 4?

I think you make a great point; we should be running 4. I might end up cutting a Ponder or Sower for it, if anything.

nodahero
04-04-2009, 04:04 AM
I believe the concensus to run 3 Spellsnare is alot like decks running 4 Ponder in standard Fairy decks. I believe it may have actually been Bucher who explained that 24 lands was to little and that 25 land in the deck was to much so to find the balance they went with 4 ponder acting as the pseudo land. In the same way I think they simply want more than 2 Snare but usally less than 4. I would much rather have one less option to an upcomming problem then to have a solution to a problem that wont ever come creating a dead card.

Aj-capra
04-04-2009, 04:22 AM
I think who mistbind is very very slow in legacy.
Why? Because I prefer to have mana open to play snare, sprite, vendilion and others fifty cards.
A lot of times you must championed (true mot?? -.-) a mutavault because you dont have others faeries in play. And championed sower isnt so good for me.
Its very very good championed vendilion because you can play another, but this is necessary??
I think who vs loam the game plane isnt earn a turn.

Command is slow too, but versus aggro is a good card. I must test it.

A little idea....http://magiccards.info/lw/en/62.html. CC= 3 , but versus lftl and others fifty cards is very vert good. Its a counter and a little extirpate.

lorddotm
04-09-2009, 01:20 PM
Personally, I feel like the deck should go in a direction similar to the Extended Wiz-Fae lists, with only the most effective faeries + counters/draw. For example:

// Lands
4 [MOR] Mutavault
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
11 [P2] Island (3)
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
4 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
3 [LRW] Sower of Temptation

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [B] Counterspell
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [SC] Stifle
1 [LRW] Cryptic Command

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
SB: 3 [5E] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 2 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 3 [US] Arcane Laboratory

Why did everyone seem to ignore this list?

Is going Mono-U all that less powerful?

kicks_422
04-11-2009, 10:43 AM
I dunno. I'm having fun with a mono-blue semi-budget build in MWS though, which looks more like Faeries because it runs more than 10 Fae.

// Lands
4 [MOR] Mutavault
18 [UNH] Island

// Creatures
4 [UL] Cloud of Faeries
4 [LRW] Pestermite
4 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
4 [LRW] Mistbind Clique
4 [LRW] Scion of Oona
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Counterspell
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [ALA] Cancel

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 4 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
SB: 4 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt

I love how almost everything in the deck can be cast at instant speed. I didn't include Wastelands and Daze because I want to ramp up mana as fast as I can to 3 or 4, where the deck really starts to shine.

I'm really worried about having literally nothing to do on the first turn though, aside from Force. Maybe I can fit in a couple of Faerie Conclaves because of that, or maybe I can fit in Spell Snares or Ancestral Visions. I'd also love to fit in Jitte somewhere, but the bombo with Scion of Oona is somewhat irritating. Also, the SB's still kind of sketchy.

Justin
04-11-2009, 10:52 AM
I dunno. I'm having fun with a mono-blue semi-budget build in MWS though, which looks more like Faeries because it runs more than 10 Fae.

// Lands
4 [MOR] Mutavault
18 [UNH] Island

// Creatures
4 [UL] Cloud of Faeries
4 [LRW] Pestermite
4 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
4 [LRW] Mistbind Clique
4 [LRW] Scion of Oona
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Counterspell
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [ALA] Cancel

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 4 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
SB: 4 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt

I love how almost everything in the deck can be cast at instant speed. I didn't include Wastelands and Daze because I want to ramp up mana as fast as I can to 3 or 4, where the deck really starts to shine.

I'm really worried about having literally nothing to do on the first turn though, aside from Force. Maybe I can fit in a couple of Faerie Conclaves because of that, or maybe I can fit in Spell Snares or Ancestral Visions. I'd also love to fit in Jitte somewhere, but the bombo with Scion of Oona is somewhat irritating. Also, the SB's still kind of sketchy.

For the love of God, Daze > Cancel

Citrus-God
04-11-2009, 02:16 PM
For the love of God, Daze > Cancel

Run some Spell Snares in there too.

LoveLeaf
04-12-2009, 10:24 PM
When I first started going through this thread, I was baffled that everyone was sticking Bitterblossom in their lists...This format is much faster and much more wide open than Extended and they don't even run it, because it's just too slow. I'm glad we've moved passed that.

Now, when it comes to the Fae in Legacy, I'm gonna have to say that sticking with Mono Blue is probably the way to go. Otherwise, just like with Merfolk, why not just play Thresh? Obviously, there are some huge differences in how this deck plays out, but the general principle of aggro-control is still the same, and if your going to muck up your mana-base, you might as well make it worth it.

That being said, here's what I've thrown together.

// Lands
10 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Riptide Laboratory
3 Wasteland

// Creatures
4 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Sower of Temptation
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Chrome Mox
1 Relic of Progenitus


This list is obviously derived from the Extended decklists, and for good reason. When it comes to fighting Thresh, TA, TheFear, or any other random variant of control you need the longevity. The attrition war against those decks is just vicious, so your ability to gain the advantage is vital.

Obviously the deck becomes stronger with the port, gaining Top, Counterbalance, and Force of Will, making the deck more capable in a faster format.

Card Choices:

Spellstutter Sprite - This card is probably one of the main reasons to even consider this deck as a viable option in the format. He's just amazing, countering a spell, and adding a creature to the board that can pick up a Jitte. Just amazing.

Vendilion Clique - Now this guy is probably the most controversial card in this deck. I don't think he should be. Knowledge is power, and when knowledge is attached to a 3cc 3 powered flier that you can play at instant speed, it's just crucial. Upping the Faerie count of the deck and adding a level of disruption that the deck can thoroughly take advantage of since it's playing cards like Counterbalance.

Sower of Temptation - Stealing a creature while putting a creature on the board is just too good. The fact that it costs four and can only be played at sorcery speed is thrown off by that fact. He's good, and if he's not, chuck him to a Force and BS/Fetch him away. He also gives you a 4cc to use with Counterbalance, which comes in handy against Gifts, Wrath, and other such powerful cards.

Trinket Mage - This guy helps so much with the attrition war. Finding a Top and adding a creature to the board. He also has the ability to fetch up the Relic and either completely destroy certain archetypes or nuke some Goyfs down in size to help with the race.

Venser - He was too powerful in the late game with Lab. Turning your soft lock of Top/Balance into a much harder lock and turning races around in your favor. He can answer a Counterbalance much easier than things that cost less. This guy was too good swinging tempo into your favor to exclude from the list.

Riptide Lab - All of the creatures in the list are Wizards with come into play abilities. Need I say much else?

Wasteland - Being a Mono-Colored deck, I couldn't help but think this needed to be in here, since the downside is minimal.

Fetches - Synergy with Brainstorm and Top.

Brainstorm - I think this is the weakest card in the deck. Thirst came up as a replacement, but the cheap, efficient choice won out. It has good synergy with Counterbalance when you are lacking a Top, and helps a great deal when you have a Fetch, so remember to save the Fetches for opportune times, rather than just wasting them for no reason.

Top/Counterbalance - I'm sure I don't even need to explain this combo to the Legacy community considering you guys already know that it's f---ing amazing.

Force - Obv.

Spell Snare - Answers a great deal of things that can cause you trouble: Tarmagoyf, Counterbalance, Standstill, and a plethora of other random cards that people fill out their curves with. I think the thing I should be explaining here is why it's not Daze. Daze sets this deck too far back. You need to get as many lands in play as fast as you can in order to stabilize the game and Daze just doesn't help with that general strategy. That and Snare is much, much better late-game than Daze will ever be.

Jitte - All of your creatures are small, puny little things. They need a boost every once in a while, just to get the job done.

Relic - Can be searched up with Mage, and when you draw it when you don't need it, it cantrips away. Not a horrible one of if I do say so.

All in all, the deck has potential. I'm not sure it's the best option for your next tournament, but it definitely does things other deck in the format can't do, and when facing up against a lot of other Aggro-Control or Control decks, I would definitely say that this deck has a lot of ways of gaining the advantage.

Good luck guys, and I hope you like the list. It's nice to be back on The Source. :)

Aj-capra
04-13-2009, 01:01 PM
10 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Riptide Laboratory
3 Wasteland

// Creatures
4 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Sower of Temptation
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Chrome Mox
1 Relic of Progenitus

I think to change cards:

1st point : If I play wasteland in monoC deck I'd play stifle too
2nd point: Chrome mox?? Oky you can put cb in your first turn but you lose a card. Isnt so good for me.

I hink : - 1 riptide + 1 wasteland - 1 venser - 1 sensei - 2 chrome + 4 stifle

Sideboard can be:

1 Meekstone (good versus tarmo, progenitus. mongoose and other stuff)
3 Back to Basics (you lose riptide only)
3 Propaganda (good vs goblin ,elves, ichorid and other more decks)
4 hydroblast
1 Relic
1 Tormod
1 Rushing River
1 Echoing Truth

MonoU decklist have a big problem. If your opponent play eng. plague and you
dont have any counter you lose easy. Rushing river or echoin can be a little good card to resolve this problem.

@edit : to cut sensei+counterbalance and play

aether + standstill??

10 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Riptide Laboratory
4 Wasteland

// Creatures
4 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Sower of Temptation
4 Cloud of faeries or scion of oona or two venser + two cloud


// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Aether Vial
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 daze

LoveLeaf
04-14-2009, 01:02 AM
Iono. I tested Stifle main, and was displeased with the amount of times it was just dead. It's OK. Don't get me wrong, but the 3 Wastelands do the job just fine, I think, and if you don't, add in the fourth and play Stifles in the board, where I think they should definitely be.

I was also playing Vial in my original list of the deck, but the lack of consistency when it comes to casting cost of your creatures just make it awkward too often.

I would however suggest cutting 1 Mox from the list and adding in a second Relic. It's just that damn good in the format right now, if not purely to just keep Goyf in check.

Citrus-God
04-14-2009, 03:55 PM
Iono. I tested Stifle main, and was displeased with the amount of times it was just dead. It's OK. Don't get me wrong, but the 3 Wastelands do the job just fine, I think, and if you don't, add in the fourth and play Stifles in the board, where I think they should definitely be.

I was also playing Vial in my original list of the deck, but the lack of consistency when it comes to casting cost of your creatures just make it awkward too often.

I would however suggest cutting 1 Mox from the list and adding in a second Relic. It's just that damn good in the format right now, if not purely to just keep Goyf in check.

The deck has enough lands to support Dust Bowls. I say do that.

e=mc^2
05-12-2009, 12:56 PM
A few people have commented that a resolved Engineered Plague is gg against this deck. You could run some duals and Engineered Explosives. This also solves blue's lack of ability to kill stuff

thefreakaccident
05-12-2009, 12:59 PM
A few people have commented that a resolved Engineered Plague is gg against this deck. You could run some duals and Engineered Explosives. This also solves blue's lack of ability to kill stuff

This is why you run other cards to deal with that problem outside of blue.

Citrus-God
05-12-2009, 10:14 PM
A few people have commented that a resolved Engineered Plague is gg against this deck. You could run some duals and Engineered Explosives. This also solves blue's lack of ability to kill stuff

This is why I run Trinket Mage and EE.

HammafistRoob
05-13-2009, 12:44 PM
Wouldn't mono blue lists want to run at least 3 Vedalken Shackles? Especially Kicks_422's list with 18 islands, seriously no Shackles? I would also be in favor of running 2 Jitte.
Maybe something like this(based off of Citrus_God's list)
//Lands-22
4 Mutavault
1 Riptide Laboratory
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Island

//Creatures-15
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Scion of Oona
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Sower of Temptation

//Spells-11
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will

//Permanents-12
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
3 Vedalken Shackle
2 Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard 15
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pyroclasm(Propaganda?)
3 Blue Elemental Blast

gamegeek2
05-14-2009, 12:20 PM
I really think this deck should be a Trinket Mage deck. But that kinda destroys the point of Faeries. I just can't help but think that this just doesn't work without removal.

thefreakaccident
05-15-2009, 10:31 AM
Wouldn't mono blue lists want to run at least 3 Vedalken Shackles? Especially Kicks_422's list with 18 islands, seriously no Shackles? I would also be in favor of running 2 Jitte.
Maybe something like this(based off of Citrus_God's list)
//Lands-22
4 Mutavault
1 Riptide Laboratory
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Island

//Creatures-15
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Scion of Oona
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Sower of Temptation

//Spells-11
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will

//Permanents-12
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
3 Vedalken Shackle
2 Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard 15
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pyroclasm(Propaganda?)
3 Blue Elemental Blast




I REALLY like that list Roob...

I would run that list had I still the cards to play Fae.

Although... it seems to be lacking a little CA for my playstyle... I would add a few more Cantrips or something.... otherwise, fantastic list.

Citrus-God
05-15-2009, 01:10 PM
I really think this deck should be a Trinket Mage deck. But that kinda destroys the point of Faeries. I just can't help but think that this just doesn't work without removal.

No it doesn't, it'll just be a Wizard/Faerie subtype deck. I mean, we already run Riptide Lab, which works with the Faeries in the deck as well as Trinket Mage itself.

coma
05-18-2009, 11:34 AM
@ all : sorry, but I don't understand why you play piroclasm in side .

We play stutter (1/1) scion , sower , etc... and we play piroclasm ?:eek:

I suggest a card like rough/tumble:laugh: ... I think it's best choice

bye bye:smile:

gamegeek2
05-18-2009, 03:22 PM
FaerieStill - a terrible name but an interesting deck idea.

3 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
9 Island
4 Mutavault
2 Riptide Laboratory

4 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Sower of Temptation

4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
4 Standstill
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Vedalken Shackles

Looks like DreadStill, except with many more Islands and Faeries in place of Trinket Mage, Goyf, and Dreadnought.

Sigar
05-18-2009, 05:57 PM
Looks terrible. Brainstorm, no fetch. Standstill, only 4 muta, no waste, vial, etc. Bad bad bad.

Jak
05-18-2009, 08:24 PM
Looks terrible. Brainstorm, no fetch. Standstill, only 4 muta, no waste, vial, etc. Bad bad bad.

Way to explain yourself.

I also didn't know you could run more than 4 Mutavault and that Vial belongs in a deck with 10 creatures.

gamegeek2
05-18-2009, 08:28 PM
Oh yeah, missed fetches. Added those in.

coma
05-20-2009, 04:57 AM
@ gamegeek2 : if you play 4 standstil you have to play a gameplane with or vial (but you have few creatures ) or 7 land effect (menland/waste) ,
...to play well under standstill (like in classic dreadstill list).

Bye:smile:

e=mc^2
05-21-2009, 04:09 PM
Going through this thread I have found two types of decks; Control Faeries, and Tempo Faeries. I submit to you, the esteemed members of the Source, a sample of each deck list for review. WARNING: These decks are untested. Also, I may love Stifle/Wasteland/Daze too much.

Control Faeries

4 spellstutter Sprite
3 Vendillion Clique
2 Sower of Temptation

3 Counterbalance
3 SDT
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
2 Vedalken Shackles
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Daze
4 FOW
4 Spellsnare

1 Riptide Lab
1 Academy Ruins
6 Fetchlands
2 Volcanic Island (for EE and allows REB and Magus out of the board)
1 Tundra (for EE)
6 Island
4 Wasteland


Tempo Faeries

4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Scion of Oona
3 Vendillion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
2 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Fow
3 Spellsnare
3 Echoing Truth

4 Mutavault
1 Riptide Lab
12 Island
4 Wasteland


Is Faeries better suited to one of these strategies? Why? Also feel free to criticize the lists and offer suggestions.

elof
05-28-2009, 05:48 AM
I tried a different faerie version a couple of times. It looks like this:

4 Mutavault
2 Mishra's Factory
3 Flooded Strand
2 Riptide Laboratory
2 Polluted Delta
7 Island

3 Ninja of the Deep Hours
2 Sower of Temptation
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Standstill
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Force of Will


I liked it very well, but I havn't tried it against a lot of matchups. Also, I'm thinking about cutting 3 Dazes for 3 Chrome Mox or 3 Vial. Thought about that? How about the SB? What cards should I add?

MULocke
05-28-2009, 04:20 PM
I know this is kinda obvious, but basically all the played faeires are wizards, too. Why not focus on wizards, much like extended decks did this season? My thought was Uw for Meddling Mages (maybe) and Patron Wizard. Patron Wizard alone just seems like a great addition here, and he has cool synergy with stutter and sower. Thoughts? I can post a prototype list if people are interested.

MTG-Fan
05-28-2009, 06:59 PM
Why is noone running Bitterblossom in their lists?

It's one of the best Faerie cards printed. And it's well-suited for a control deck that can stretch the game well past turns 10-11, and has great synergy with Spellstutter.

elof
05-29-2009, 05:30 AM
@MULocke: Feel free to post, I'm intressted.

@MTG-Fan: I'm currently trying it. Done the following changes to fit it in:
-3 Daze
-1 Ponder
-1 Ninja of the Deep Hours
-1 Cloud of Faeries
-1 Standstill
-2 Mishra's Factory
+ 2 Underground Sea
+ 2 Stifle
+ 4 Bitterblossom

Drizzy
05-29-2009, 06:02 AM
I have been testing out several Faerie decks in MWS for some time, ranginng from 3c faerie fish to mono blue Faerie Wizard control deck. I'll post few lists, maybe it could give some ideas. They aren't 100% tested (not even 50%), but I'll give out few of my favourites anyway:

BitterStill:

// Lands
4 [R] Underground Sea
4 [MOR] Mutavault
3 [ARE] Island
1 [ARE] Swamp
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
4 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
3 [LRW] Scion of Oona
1 [LRW] Mistbind Clique

// Spells
3 [LRW] Ponder
4 [ON] Smother
3 [NE] Daze
4 [MOR] Bitterblossom
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [BD] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize

Bitterblossom and Vial has good synergies with Standstill and Spellstutter Sprite. I've also thinking about adding Jitte since its awesome with BB and Vial frees mana to use for Jitte & Equipment costs.

FaerieWeenie:

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [R] Underground Sea
1 [ARE] Swamp (5)
4 [ARE] Island (2)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire

// Creatures
2 [LRW] Pestermite
4 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
4 [LRW] Scion of Oona
3 [LRW] Oona's Prowler
1 [LRW] Mistbind Clique
3 [LRW] Nightshade Stinger

// Spells
3 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [MOR] Bitterblossom
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [NE] Daze

Few critters instead of standstill. Makes the deck faster and puts more pressure on the opponent.

I've been running Mistbind Clique as 1-of in both of these decks. She's expensive, but she is big and sometimes tapping the lands can win the games. Trades with Tombstalker without scion and eats him with scion.

Mono U FaeWizards:

// Lands
18 [ARE] Island (2)
2 [ON] Riptide Laboratory

// Creatures
2 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
4 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
4 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
2 [CHK] Meloku the Clouded Mirror
2 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant

// Spells
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [NE] Accumulated Knowledge
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [MM] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm

There are few questionable cards and they will be replaced or tweaked. First, Brainstorm without shuffling effects is weak (could be helped by running fetches, then also EE could be included) and second, Accumulated Knowledge is a bit weak these days so it could be replaced with something else. All creatures here are wizards so they can be bounced back with Laboratory. Laboratory is awesome if you can start doing things with it but it requires a lot of mana to work and it is number 1 wasteland target. Also note that this is more controllish deck than the 2 previous. Deck is weak against fast aggro decks like goblin and zoo, maybe running EE would help?

I have also lists running white for STP and green for Tarmos, but since I haven't really played them I won't post them. But maybe those lists can at least give some ideas (though almost anyone could come up with something like those).

Mictlantecuhtli
05-29-2009, 09:09 AM
I know this is kinda obvious, but basically all the played faeires are wizards, too. Why not focus on wizards, much like extended decks did this season? My thought was Uw for Meddling Mages (maybe) and Patron Wizard. Patron Wizard alone just seems like a great addition here, and he has cool synergy with stutter and sower. Thoughts? I can post a prototype list if people are interested.

Have a look at this thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13562) for ideas, it's a more focussed Wizards deck with Patron Wizard and Aether Vial. I threw a list on MWS and played some games. It's an interesting list, Patron can actually turn your wizards into a true counterwall...

Edit: ... not to mention the Venser lock if you have Vial at 4 and Riptide Lab in play!

matamagos
06-02-2009, 07:15 PM
Can someone post me a list designed to perform well in a meta full of landstill, control thresh, dreaded fish and control decks in general??? Wich cards would be important here? Preferently monoblue cause sometimes I see blue decks who play back to basics maindeck. Thank you in advance.

kroelai
06-03-2009, 05:40 PM
Can someone post me a list designed to perform well in a meta full of landstill, control thresh, dreaded fish and control decks in general??? Wich cards would be important here? Preferently monoblue cause sometimes I see blue decks who play back to basics maindeck. Thank you in advance.

I guess both cliques en vial will do a lot of good stuff in that meta.

thefreakaccident
06-06-2009, 12:36 PM
I think that we've been going in the wrong direction w/ the deck...

We need to be able to put pressure on the opponent and be able to advance our board position while adding our disruption...

Here is my current list that has been showing me a different side of the deck:

lands//21
5 island
4 underground sea
4 mutavault
4 polluted delta
4 flooded strand

creatures//16
4 scion of oona
4 spellstutter sprite
3 vendillion clique
2 sower of temptation
3 mistbind clique

spells//23
4 brainstorm
4 ancestral vision
3 ponder

4 smother
4 bitterblossom

4 force of will


The theory behind this list is that aggression is your means of control.. getting a board position and mistbinding them... or just simply building pressure w/ scion and bitterblossom... The CA of vision early helps keep the pressure comming.

Sprite and vendillion clique really shine, as they can really just keep the opponent at bay if you aren't on the offensive.


FoW and smother are solid, they help stop the opponent's threats/spells to help you keep advantage on board...


I have a lot of testing session results to post... and I will get to that in a bit.

coma
06-09-2009, 06:11 AM
@ thefreakaccident: Sorry , but I don't like ancestral vision like draw card : you draw netx 4th turn and ... may be .
Blossom is moreover linked to jitte .

I prefer your pevious list.:smile:

lorddotm
06-09-2009, 03:24 PM
Land-21
5 Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Mutavault
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand

Creatures-10
4 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Vendillion Clique
2 Sower of Temptation
2 Mistbind Clique

Spells-27
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
2 Smother
4 Bitterblossom
4 Force of Will
4 Daze

What do you guys think of me list?
I ported it from Standard, where Faeries is a powerhouse, so I thought this might work here. So far it has been doing well against Thresh and other blue decks. Bitterblossom is as good here as it is in Standard, but its kind of awkward against burn decks, but CounterTop usually takes care of that problem.

1maarten1
07-20-2009, 07:50 AM
Hi, is this topic dead?? :confused:
Anyway, i have been testing this list for a while now and its doing pretty well for me on MWS.
4#Force of Will
3#Spell Snare
2#Wasteland
4#Standstill
4#Ęther Vial
1#Sword of Fire and Ice
2#Umezawa’s Jitte
4#Mutavault
4#Spellstutter Sprite
3#Vendilion Clique
4#Brainstorm
3#Daze
4#Cloud of Faeries
4#Ninja of the Deep Hours
1#Riptide Laboratory
13#Snow-Covered Island
// sideboard
3#Propaganda
4#Chalice of the Void
3#Relic of Progenitus
3#Arcane Laboratory
2#Trygon Predator

Any thoughts?? Im not really sure about the predators in the side so maybe you guys know good replacement?:smile:

Plz help me improve this list :smile: but please dont go suggest add green for goyf or add black for blossem because i'd like to keep the list mono Blue.

Thanks! Maarten

elof
07-20-2009, 08:39 AM
Predators seems awful since you can't cast them?

How has AEther Vial worked out for you? Also, with 4 Ninjas, don't you draw them to often? I played 4 a while but switched back to 3 when I lost to many games with 1-2 Ninjas in my hand.

Also, I found that more often than not Mishra > Mutavault. I play 4-1-2 (Mishra, Muta and Riptide) but also a "slower" version than you do, I have for example Sower in maindeck. I also play fetch because there great with BStorm. Also, I play 2-3 Ponders becasue that enables me more often to "set up" cards and also lets me play with just 3 Standstills (since I play no Vials).

1maarten1
07-20-2009, 09:06 AM
Predators seems awful since you can't cast them?

How has AEther Vial worked out for you? Also, with 4 Ninjas, don't you draw them to often? I played 4 a while but switched back to 3 when I lost to many games with 1-2 Ninjas in my hand.

Also, I found that more often than not Mishra > Mutavault. I play 4-1-2 (Mishra, Muta and Riptide) but also a "slower" version than you do, I have for example Sower in maindeck. I also play fetch because there great with BStorm. Also, I play 2-3 Ponders becasue that enables me more often to "set up" cards and also lets me play with just 3 Standstills (since I play no Vials).

Yep, im replacing predators with sowers and try how that works for me. Vial works great for me in combination with standstil, which is a very powerfull combo i think. Also i was already thinking about cutting 1 ninja and 1 ???? for 2 sowers MD. The mutavaults were chosen above the factorys because of the huge ammount of merfolk in my meta. But i guess i could test out factorys too and see how that works. I didnt have to much trouble with brainstorm, its been working good for me and i dont really feel an urge to play fetch since i play such big ammount of draw already, i dont feel its neccesary to thin the deck out. But maybe you can post your lists and i take a look at it ?:wink:

thanks

Raindown
07-20-2009, 12:22 PM
I have a question as someone who considered playing this deck. I like the overall idea of the deck but with Merfolk, at least according to the forum organization, seems to be classified as a most competitive deck (DTB).

Why would you play Faeries, albeit for flavor, over the Mer? I'm not trying to be negative just curious as a person considering a "blue" deck.

1maarten1
07-20-2009, 02:11 PM
I have a question as someone who considered playing this deck. I like the overall idea of the deck but with Merfolk, at least according to the forum organization, seems to be classified as a most competitive deck (DTB).

Why would you play Faeries, albeit for flavor, over the Mer? I'm not trying to be negative just curious as a person considering a "blue" deck.

Fearies play a whole different gameplan then Folk, its just what you like. but yea Mer is a very strong deck atm, but i think Fearies can also deliver some good prestations:laugh:

tivadar
07-20-2009, 02:19 PM
I have a question as someone who considered playing this deck. I like the overall idea of the deck but with Merfolk, at least according to the forum organization, seems to be classified as a most competitive deck (DTB).

Why would you play Faeries, albeit for flavor, over the Mer? I'm not trying to be negative just curious as a person considering a "blue" deck.

Basically it comes down to the fact that Merfolk provides you with more explosive plays, making it better in the early/mid game. Faeries provides you with better card advantage, making it better in the mid/late game.

If faeries could find a 1cc faerie that was good, along with some lords that didn't cost 3 mana for a 1/1, it would most likely be superior to merfolk largely because of Clique and Sower.

elof
07-21-2009, 01:24 AM
My list:

4# Force of Will
3# Spell Snare
3# Standstill
2# Umezawa’s Jitte
1# Mutavault
4# Spellstutter Sprite
2# Vendilion Clique
4# Brainstorm
3# Daze
4# Cloud of Faeries
3# Ninja of the Deep Hours
2# Ponder
3# Grim Lavamancer
3# Fire/Ice
2# Riptide Laboratory
4# Snow-Covered Island
4# Volcanic Island
3# Flooded Strand
2# Polluted Delta
4# Mishra's Factory

If you don't splash red then go for +1 Jitte, +2 Sower, +1 Ponder, +2 *other*

1maarten1
07-21-2009, 08:14 AM
Testing this out atm:
// creatures 14
4#Cloud of Faeries
3#Ninja of the Deep Hours
4#Spellstutter Sprite
3#Vendilion Clique

// spells 14
4#Brainstorm
3#Daze
4#Force of Will
3#Spell Snare

// Artifacts & Enchantments 11
2 Umezewa's Jitte
1 Sword of fire and ice
4 Aether vial
4 Standstill

// lands 21
13#Island
3#Wasteland
4#Mishra’s Factory
1#Riptide Laboratory

// sideboard 15
3#Propaganda
4#Chalice of the Void
3#Relic of Progenitus
3#Arcane Laboratory
2#Sower of Temptation

Im am very happy with this list atm. The only thing im thinking about is Brainstorm. I like the card, but im think that there might be better options concidering the fact that i dont play fetches. I was thinking about Ancestral vision or maybe stifle to go for a more mana denial plan like merfolk does. For the rest i was thinking about going -1 island + 1 mutavault but im pretty satisfied with this manabase at the moment.

Any thoughts? :smile:

~Maarten

Maveric78f
07-21-2009, 09:11 AM
0 solution to a resolved tarmogoyf ??? That seems risky atm.

Anusien
07-21-2009, 06:14 PM
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge

4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Vendilion Clique
2 Sower of Temptation
1 Venser, Shaper Savant

2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Vedalken Shackles

4 Chrome Mox
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
5 Island
4 Mutavault
2 Riptide Laboratory

I'm pretty sure the deck isn't fast enough without Chrome Mox. However with it I am incredibly enamored of the idea of turn 1 Spellstutter Sprite countering your Top. Thirst for Knowledge has an artifact to pitch about 60% of the time, but it's generally worth it to turn 1 mox, turn 2 tfk if you have a redundant mox or top or pitch (and sometimes even not). The deck is short on ways to deal with an active Counterbalance (but good at stopping one) but long on tricks. Opponents will play into active Riptide Lab + Spellstutter Sprite at lease once per tournament, and probably that again for Spellstutter Sprite + Mutavault (to up the Faerie count).

Firespout is one-sided Wrath of God, which is pretty sick. Plus all your guys fly, and that's one of the best abilities after Storm and being blue.

dearleader
07-22-2009, 05:14 AM
Has anyone tried maindeck Back to Basics in this deck? Combined with bounce and aether vial, it could really help the mid-game tempo of the deck against zoo, and it severely hampers landstill's (or other non-basic heavy control) ability to dominate the late game. Seeing as how fairies beat down really slowly without goyfs and has a higher curve than thresh, the deck needs to survive another 3-4 turns after stabilizing to win. Back to Basics can really help you recover tempo here, and it makes top-decked dazes and wastelands not completely suck. Is the general consensus that stifle is generally better here?

In my (admittedly casual) faerie deck, a turn 5-6 standstill into dazes and cloud faeries was a major problem. I tinkered around with winter orb in that deck, and it worked out nicely with vials and cloud of faeries. I haven't tested a faeries list against the proper legacy meta yet - so i have no idea if this works well in practice - partly due to the absence of a legacy scene where I live.

I really like Anusien's list. Just from looking at it, it cuts out all the weaker and situational cards that tend to clog your hand. I completely agree with the reasoning for chrome mox; the curve for faeries really starts at 2, and there's usually a lot of redundancy in faerie lists. It looks a lot better than aether vial for faeries. Unfortunately, I guess this means that you can only run 1 shackles, which is a pity.

elof
07-22-2009, 06:01 AM
@Ansuien: What do you play black for? Nice list otherwise.

@Maarten: Vision would be good if you weren't playing with Standstill already, those do not work together.

Anusien
07-22-2009, 10:26 AM
Black is for sideboarded Thoughtseize and at some points Bitterblossom. I had Blossom before I had Chrome, but it's too slow. It might be worth testing post-Chrome Mox.

Citrus-God
07-22-2009, 11:21 AM
@Anusien: You could definitely get away with running Engineered Explosives. It deals with Counterbalance and is another artifact you pitch to TfK. And a majority of the time, the only thing that gets in the way of EE is your own CB and Spellstutter Sprites.

Anusien
07-22-2009, 12:40 PM
I definitely have some EE in the sideboard, I think. The deck is kind of tight on slots.

Citrus-God
07-22-2009, 01:14 PM
I can see cutting a Clique and a TfK for a couple EEs.

MTG-Fan
07-23-2009, 04:22 PM
Have you guys tried Mask of Memories? It's kind of neat with Faeries.

I've been testing this list recently with some success:


3 Faerie Conclave
4 Polluted Delta
3 Swamp
4 Island
4 Underground Sea

4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Bitterblossom

3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Mask of Memory

4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress

2 Duress
2 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Annul
4 Engineered Plague
4 Hydroblast


Bitterblossom + Equipment is really good.

Anusien
07-23-2009, 05:45 PM
Why would Mask of Memories be better than just more Jitte?

keys
07-23-2009, 06:13 PM
Why would Mask of Memories be better than just more Jitte?

Duress and Mask should be Doom Blade or Smother, I think.

MTG-Fan
07-23-2009, 07:15 PM
Why would Mask of Memories be better than just more Jitte?

I already run 3 Jitte. Besides, I heard drawing cards is good.

Citrus-God
07-23-2009, 08:01 PM
I already run 3 Jitte. Besides, I heard drawing cards is good.

Not when the entire metagame has nothing but creature hate. Have you seen Landstill, Ultimate Planeswalkers and Tempo Thresh? They all pack Fire // Ice, and it's not very money when you have to deal with Fire // Ice and Wastelands (for your Mutavaults) when you have a dead MoM sitting on the board. I personally think you should run SoFI if anything. Also, SoFI dodges Counterbalance better than MoM.

MTG-Fan
07-23-2009, 08:26 PM
So you're saying that we should abandon the idea of running creatures because alot of decks pack removal spells? Sounds logical enough.

Anyway, I'm building around 4 Bitterblossom, which is just awesome with equipment because you almost always have a faerie to strap stuff to unless they destroy the enchantment itself. So yeah.

Roman Candle
07-23-2009, 11:20 PM
So you're saying that we should abandon the idea of running creatures because alot of decks pack removal spells? Sounds logical enough.

No, he's saying that a card that's useless when you have no creatures is bad against people who are going to kill all your creatures.

Anusien
07-23-2009, 11:44 PM
I wouldn't cut creatures for spells that require creatures to draw cards. If you want more card advantage, Thirst, Top and Sower are fine choices. In order to support all that equipment, you have to run these terrible cards that don't really do anything on their own like Cloud of Faeries.

Citrus-God
07-24-2009, 01:03 AM
No, he's saying that a card that's useless when you have no creatures is bad against people who are going to kill all your creatures.

Roman Candle got it right. But look, if people aimed removal spells at your creatures, you're still in the game, as long as you have cards that arent dead. Mask of Memory will hypothetically be "dead" if you dont play another creature to replace the ones that were killed. If that Mask had been something like... say TfK, Top or whatever, at least it's useful.

Edit. This was why Angel Stompy sucked against Landstill; the quality of their threats may be better because of Equipment, but the quantity is lacking. The same goes for Threshold pre-Counterbalance.

MTG-Fan
07-24-2009, 01:27 AM
1.) Cloud of Faeries is amazing because it's a free 1/1 that also makes Spellstutter better and easily carries equipment, and cycles in a pinch if you don't need it. Also pitches to Force.

2.) Equipment is almost never dead in a deck with 4 Bitterblossom, unless they maindeck enchantment hate, and that's mitigated by the fact that I run 6 discard effects. I would agree with you guys if I didn't have this amazing enchantment in the deck that generates a steady supply of 1/1 fliers, thwarting any targeted removal. The only efficient ways to deal with Blossom are K-Grip, Explosives, Deed, and Pridemage, most of which are strictly sideboard cards and/or only found in niche decks.

Jak
07-24-2009, 03:00 AM
The only efficient ways to deal with Blossom are K-Grip, Explosives, Deed, and Pridemage, most of which are strictly sideboard cards and/or only found in niche decks.

What!? I hope you are kidding.

Anusien
07-24-2009, 10:55 AM
I would rather run Chrome Mox than Cloud of Faeries. They're both free and make Spellstutter Sprite better, but one of them does something relevant.

If I have active Bitterblossom against most decks, do I care about drawing more cards? Once you have an awesome threat on the table (like Clique or Bitterblossom) all you want to do is keep the opponent from overwhelming you, and keep mana up to stop their shenanigans. Jitte does this far far better than Mask.

Also, Faerie Conclave is pretty miserable. It costs too much and comes into play tapped. You also need some Riptide Labs. Card is insane.

Jak
07-24-2009, 03:51 PM
This (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=364829&postcount=368) was posted in the Tempo Thresh thread, and I thought it was incredible. I made a few changes like Mutavaults instead of Factories, more Sprites and Cliques, some bounce in the form of Wipe Away and Venser, etc. Here is what I got after basing it of miko's deck.

// Lands
3 [A] Tropical Island
3 [MOR] Mutavault
1 [ON] Island (2)
2 [ON] Riptide Laboratory
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [B] Volcanic Island
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
1 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
2 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
2 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite

// Spells
3 [AT] Lightning Bolt
1 [TSP] Wipe Away
3 [AP] Fire/Ice
3 [OD] Standstill
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
3 [SC] Stifle

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 3 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 3 [5E] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [NE] Submerge

Basically, I liked the tempo game it played to get ahead and then the long game it has with Standstills, man lands, and Riptide labs. I tried it quick against Ugr Dreadstill and it performed pretty well and won the game without too much trouble. Thoughts? I know most people are leaning towards Counterbalance, but I feel this could be stronger.

MTG-Fan
07-24-2009, 05:38 PM
I would rather run Chrome Mox than Cloud of Faeries. They're both free and make Spellstutter Sprite better, but one of them does something relevant.


Being able to counter 2 mana+ spells with a Spellstutter is alot more useful than merely being able to play it early. And Cloud is a much better mid/late-game draw than Chrome Mox will ever be.



If I have active Bitterblossom against most decks, do I care about drawing more cards? Once you have an awesome threat on the table (like Clique or Bitterblossom) all you want to do is keep the opponent from overwhelming you, and keep mana up to stop their shenanigans. Jitte does this far far better than Mask.


Just because you have a Blossom on the board doesn't necessarily mean you are winning, or you are definitely going to win. Having a Blossom on the board and drawing cards, however, typically means that you now have a superior board presence AND increasing card advantage/card quality.



Also, Faerie Conclave is pretty miserable. It costs too much and comes into play tapped. You also need some Riptide Labs. Card is insane.

Riptide is good, but I find that it's better if you focus more on a Wizard-type build with additional Vensers and Mistbinds. As it stands, the only decent synergy in my list would be with Spellstutter. Again, it's a great land, but I'm testing Conclave for the time being.