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MTG Guru
08-29-2008, 06:13 PM
I've been working on this deck for over a year and I've been very happy with the results, so far. One card that I've always wanted to break include Daybreak Coronet. Yet it's pretty difficult in a format where spot removal is prevalent. I then came up with the ingenius idea of building a deck with creatures that only you can target, as well as a boatload of nasty auras. Here's an innovation I take much pride in, since I haven't really lost a game with it in MWS, which probably isn't saying much, but still. Here's the list.

Daybreak Hermits.DEC By MTG Guru

// Lands
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [RAV] Forest (3)
4 [RAV] Temple Garden
3 [CHK] Plains (4)
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [R] Savannah

// Creatures
2 [P3] Taoist Hermit
3 [6E] Llanowar Elves
3 [4E] Birds of Paradise
4 [MR] Troll Ascetic
4 [GP] Silhana Ledgewalker
4 [EVE] Slippery Bogle

// Spells
4 Rancor
4 [7E] Holy Strength
4 [FUT] Daybreak Coronet
3 [LRW] Battle Mastery
3 [IN] Armadillo Cloak

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 3 [10E] True Believer
SB: 4 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg

I chose to name the deck "Daybreak Hermits" becuase of Taoist Hermit and Daybreak Coronet. I used to run 4 Hermits which manifested in the naming of the deck. The deck works by playing a bunch of untargetable creatures and busted auras. EVERY card, besides the mana elves, are a must counter, making every card I play a formidable threat. I can get a 6/4 untargetable, lifelink, vigilant beast by the 3rd turn, and a 7/7 or bigger by the fourth pretty much sealing the game if undealt with. Let me explain some card choices relating to the auras, becuase this a very important aspect of the way the deck works.

[U]Daybreak Coronet - The beef of the deck, great to play on creatures that can only be targeted by you, making multiple auras on a creature alot less risky.

Armadillo Cloak - Another busted enchantment that gets nasty when combined with other auras, especially Battle Mastery. Why would I not play this card giving the colors I run?

Rancor - A give in and obvious inclusion.

and last but not least...

Battle Mastery - This card is so busted in this deck it makes baby Jesus cry. I'm pretty much able to deal 14+ damage by the fourth turn with this card sealing the game completely, if not dealt with. I love this card. I also discovered it by accident, and it's performed like a charm for me.

I know what you're thinking... A deck with all creatures and enchant creature spells?! That doesn't seem good. But when every card in your deck is a formidable threat, all of that logic goes right out the window. I've tested this deck with very good results against aggro and control. And all I can say is, this deck is the TITS.

Well, that's pretty much all I got for now. I just wanted to post the idea and see what you people have to say about it. I hope you like this innovation and don't hesitate to comment on my build. Thanks!

dude 666
08-29-2008, 07:28 PM
Question: why play this over berserk stompy?

Now that that's out of the way, what turn is your average goldfish, and how do you deal with counterbalance, seeing as how it counters all your important auras?

What do you do against combo? Can you give matchup statistics? It seems control seems to roll over you as well- humility, wrath, and deed all shit on your creatures (OK, you can regenerate troll, but you get my point).

The only thing I see this deck being able to do is race aggro and burn with the life gain. Where are the TITS, exactly?

Edit: I would move Teeg to the mainboard to not completely scoop to combo and control game 1.

Isamaru
08-29-2008, 07:32 PM
I can definitely see this beating aggro/aggro-control and control, but you'll probably always lose to combo [and prison]. A lot of decks can claim this including Loam and Stax, etc. Shouldn't your sideboard be like... 12 cards all against combo?

MTG Guru
08-29-2008, 07:52 PM
Question: why play this over berserk stompy?

Because berserk stompy critters can be targeted and my build is much more resilient?


Now that that's out of the way, what turn is your average goldfish, and how do you deal with counterbalance, seeing as how it counters all your important auras?


My Krosan Grips in the SB, and my 3cc spells, which usually get around Counterbalance? I goldfish by the 4th turn on average.


What do you do against combo? Can you give matchup statistics? It seems control seems to roll over you as well- humility, wrath, and deed all shit on your creatures (OK, you can regenerate troll, but you get my point).


I'm usually able to win before my opponent reaches 4 mana and does Humility really effect a deck that runs auras?


I can definitely see this beating aggro/aggro-control and control, but you'll probably always lose to combo [and prison]. A lot of decks can claim this including Loam and Stax, etc. Shouldn't your sideboard be like... 12 cards all against combo?

The sideboard is pretty much a work in progress. It's not tried and true just yet and continuious testing will eventual have the SB evolve into something more concrete. Krosan Grip is pretty much set in stone though, as a 4'of, but the rest is pretty much up in the air.

Isamaru
08-29-2008, 11:04 PM
That's a pretty heavy attitude there, if I'm reading it correctly.

Anyway, I know Krosan Grips were set in stone, thats why I said 12 not 15. I guess it's not right to ASSUME you lose to combo, but the way you're putting it, you don't lose to anything at all.

(So then why bother posting the deck for help?)

C.P.
08-29-2008, 11:59 PM
Why is Coronet better than, say, Jitte?

It cannot come down unless you already have an enchantment, and it costs WW, which may be a factor as well. It is a cool card and all, but I don;t see it having advantage over good equipments like Jitte.

Also, how's no removal in the deck treating you? and Combo matchup? I can tell you with 100% certainty that it is very reasonable to assume this deck folds to combo as it is. You hand over G1 without much resistance, and your SB hates are slow, as in both of them comes down on turn 2 and one does not stop empty the warrens. And as a avid Ichorid player, I would love to see this deck in tourney as it has no GY hate at all.

rockout
08-30-2008, 12:17 AM
I almost want to say run krosan grip main deck.

I enjoyed reading about the concept.

I'm glad I didn't have to bring up counterbalance rapes your deck just like it does many other decks in the format. We got it already guys, we got it.

Moldervine Cloak seems better in the Battle Mastery slot. You guys remember ledgewalker/cloak in ravnica draft right?

Maveric78f
08-30-2008, 03:46 AM
Why do you play Ancient Tomb?
Why don't you play equipments?
Taoist Hermit looks too weak for the deck, imo.
I wonder if Briar Shield is not better than Holy Strength, even if sacrificing the shield would be your last option.

Among cards/decks that make your day :
EE, Deed, Counterbalance, combos, humility + removal, wrath of god, reverent silence.

In conclusion, I like the idea but I fear it's not viable.

Willoe
08-30-2008, 07:15 AM
You should definetely (cmon, I never learn spelling that freaking word) play 4 armadillo cloaks. It's one of the best Auras ever printed, period.

I don't see why you play mana dudes. You should in most situations be able to run your opponent over with one single creature, not a couple of them.

I also can't see the advantage of playing Auras over Jittes and other sweet Equipment. Jitte wins the game 99% of the time, and even though play, attack is 1 mana more expensive than just attaching a rancor and a daybreak coronet, you're still a lot better off with Jitte. Lifegain, creature removal, creature pump - all in one card. If Daybreak Coronet had an ability that said "When Daybreak Coronet becomes attached to a creature, you may remove target creature from the game. Its controller gains life equal to its power" would have been pretty awesome, but sadly it hasn't.

You also need answers for other creatures. Your plan is to win against creature decks by having better creatures, but I can see you losing against Phyrexian Dreadnoughts, too large Tarmogoyfs and Exalted Angels.

You need Swords To Plowshares.

I like the idea of making STP and other creature removal dead cards as well as having no graveyard dependancy.

I don't like the idea of playing a deck that, like 75% of the entire field, loses to counterbalance. Get a higher curve, some ancient tombs etc. Your deck should be pointing against going the stompy route. You'll then have a nice game against combo (by playing Chalices and/or Trinispheres) as well as you'll have a better game against Threshold.

Keep up the work, I like the idea, I just don't like that it's sadly not good enough (No offense, just regular critique).

MTG Guru
08-30-2008, 10:18 AM
Why is Coronet better than, say, Jitte?

It cannot come down unless you already have an enchantment, and it costs WW, which may be a factor as well. It is a cool card and all, but I don;t see it having advantage over good equipments like Jitte.

Also, how's no removal in the deck treating you? and Combo matchup? I can tell you with 100% certainty that it is very reasonable to assume this deck folds to combo as it is. You hand over G1 without much resistance, and your SB hates are slow, as in both of them comes down on turn 2 and one does not stop empty the warrens. And as a avid Ichorid player, I would love to see this deck in tourney as it has no GY hate at all.

I don't run equipment becuase of Daybreak Coronet. I would definitely run Jitte if I wasn't so reliant on creature enchantments. No removal is fine. My creatures usually outmatch my opponents and cards like Meddling mage don't affect me and Trygon Predator is to slow to stop me. Combo should be a difficult matchup. Maybe Orim's Chant in the SB as a 4'of?


Why do you play Ancient Tomb?
Why don't you play equipments?


I play Ancient tomb to accellerate Battle Mastery and Taoist Hermit making me win a turn sooner. I would play equipment if this deck didn't revolve so much around auras, and equipment, though good, is usually a turn slower.


Moldervine Cloak seems better in the Battle Mastery slot. You guys remember ledgewalker/cloak in ravnica draft right?

I would never cut Battle Mastery. It wins games hands down. the moment I cast it on a creature with two or more enchantments, it pretty much seals the game. Think about how broken Rakdos Pit Dragon is in Dragon Stompy and apply the same logic here.


You also need answers for other creatures. Your plan is to win against creature decks by having better creatures, but I can see you losing against Phyrexian Dreadnoughts, too large Tarmogoyfs and Exalted Angels.


My creatures can usually outrace Goyf and Angel and usually get bigger than them both. Phyrexian Dreadnought might pose as a problem but my creatures can actually go toe to toe with Dreadnought if not cast early.


I don't see why you play mana dudes. You should in most situations be able to run your opponent over with one single creature, not a couple of them

Elves are good agianst Diabolic Edict/ Chainer's Edict and such which is a main weakness of the deck. It also helps me accelerate the deck, obviously, so it serves a dual purpose.

Thanks for the responses. I enjoy getting some feedback from the community.

dude 666
08-30-2008, 10:21 AM
Because berserk stompy critters can be targeted and my build is much more resilient?



My Krosan Grips in the SB, and my 3cc spells, which usually get around Counterbalance? I goldfish by the 4th turn on average.



I'm usually able to win before my opponent reaches 4 mana and does Humility really effect a deck that runs auras?




For some reason upon first looking at the deck it reminded me of berserk stompy, but much slower. Berserk stompy also fights through hate by just being faster than it, this deck, however, can't do shit about hate. I don't get it- what exactly is your deck resilient against? Spot removal, ok, but that's about it. You're certainly not resilient against control because the deck lacks consistency. You have 18 cards that depend on a creature being in play, and 4 cards that depend on a creature and an aura being in play. The reason equipment > aura is cause it hangs around regardless of whether a creature is in play.

I don't think you can get out of the counterbalance raping you thing, you have 3 grips coming from the sideboard for it, just to prevent one card from owning you. Then what about the rest of their deck?

Humility does affect you because it slows you down, and decks that run humility also run removal.

Right now the deck seems really fragile for a 4th(if you're correct) turn goldfish. If your opponent plays any disruption, the deck seems to roll over.


Edit:


I would never cut Battle Mastery. It wins games hands down. the moment I cast it on a creature with two or more enchantments, it pretty much seals the game. Think about how broken Rakdos Pit Dragon is in Dragon Stompy and apply the same logic here.



Ok. What this is, is the definition of win-more (man, I've been throwing around that term so much these days :\). Battle mastery is good when you have two or more enchantments on a creature? That sounds fucking terrible. If a card can't hold its own, and is dependent on 3 other cards...I've no idea why you would run such a card. You can't compare it to pit dragon- pit dragon only relies on itself to be awesome (and hellbent, but that's the point of dstompy anyway).

MTG Guru
08-30-2008, 10:29 AM
You're certainly not resilient against control because the deck lacks consistency.

How on earth can you say this deck lacks consistency if you've never tested it? That's a pretty ambiguious comment, can you clarify it?


I don't think you can get out of the counterbalance raping you thing

Last time I checked 3cc spells usually get around Counterbalance. If I'm wrong, please enlighten me. It's not like this deck consists of all 1cc to 2cc spells.


Ok. What this is, is the definition of win-more (man, I've been throwing around that term so much these days :\). Battle mastery is good when you have two or more enchantments on a creature? That sounds fucking terrible. If a card can't hold its own, and is dependent on 3 other cards...I've no idea why you would run such a card. You can't compare it to pit dragon- pit dragon only relies on itself to be awesome (and hellbent, but that's the point of dstompy anyway).

Battle Mastery is good by itself on just one creature. Do you consider Berserk win more? Becuase that's my assumption judging from your comment.

Willoe
08-30-2008, 10:44 AM
Counterbalance resilliancy? No, no and even more noes.

Go check your curve:

1cc - 18
2cc - 8
3cc - 10

That is NOT counter balance resilliant. Here's one curve that doesn't get hit by Counterbalance:

0cc - 8
1cc - 0
2cc - 2
3cc - 23
4cc - 4
5cc - 5

That is something to work with. That is a sample curve of Dragon Stompy.

I do like your idea of Aura'ing your dudes, but I don't like people lying. You have no outlets for Counterbalance except for three sideboarded Krosan Grips (and you have no cantrips to get the grips)

Your deck would be a hell lot better if you ran a stompy curve. That is really the way to go in a dodge-counterbalance-while-oversizing-tarmogoyfs format. But sadly, you can't run a stompy curve.

I thought about the choice of Auras earlier. Wouldn't they be a lot better if some of them had flash? You simply playing them in the end of the declare attackers step, see if the opponent counters, and if they don't, block, kill and survive.

Here's a list of possible Auras with Flash:
http://magiccards.info/query/cards/730877.html

I don't know which Auras might be good. Go check them out.

MTG Guru
08-30-2008, 10:52 AM
3cc - 10


I count 12.

dude 666
08-30-2008, 10:56 AM
The statement is neither ambiguous nor unclear, if you like, reread my post; I explain it in a pretty detailed fashion I think. If you have further questions though, I'll gladly answer.

About counterbalance, let's take a look at the list.
Important cards (as in, threats to the opponent):
4 Bogle
4 Ledgewalker
4 Ascetic
2 Hermit

Counterbalance hates on 8 of your threats, and, depending on the deck, all 14. This is not to say counterbalance only counters these, it also counters many of your enchantments and mana dudes, but those don't pose threats to the opponent. Another thing to keep in mind with counterbalance is that decks that run it usually run around 8 free counters. That's gonna be rough to get through, no matter how you spin it.

Berserk is played in only one deck (at least that I can think of), and that deck behaves like combo in most cases. It is just balls-to-the-wall aggression trying to win as soon as possible. Berserk here is what allows it to win turn 2, 3, or whatever. What your 3 mana enchantment does, is give a creature double strike, at the earliest on turn 3, assuming of course you dont wanna stick it on an elf. By that time your opponent will have done some stuff, drawn some counters, killed some dudes, whatever. You'll have a doublestriking ascetic. I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that you can't play cards that do nothing but increase your damage output (at the cost of having a creature in play, mind you), and not even necesarily win you the game. Especially 3cc auras!. You're not as fast as aggro or combo, and you don't have any control to be able to go the aggro/control route. What a dilemma. Oh, did I mention berserk can act as removal?

Also, no need to get hostile. I'm not trying to insult you, I'm just pointing out what I see as flaws in the deck. You can blindly defend it, but the problems will still be there, or I could just be wrong. In that case, it will be your loss for not considering the flaws in your deck anyway.

Maagler
08-30-2008, 11:14 AM
Moldervine Cloak seems better in the Battle Mastery slot. You guys remember ledgewalker/cloak in ravnica draft right?


I played a deck like that in T2 last year, wreaked house.

Also add more tarmogoyf. I know you probably wont like this suggestion since it does not go with the theme of the deck, but there are no other creatures that have the same power/cost ratio.

MTG Guru
08-30-2008, 01:08 PM
or I could just be wrong

I can't argue with that, especially when you're blindly criticizing the deck with flawed logic and unintelligent responses.

I'm really not trying to argue with you and waste energy.


(So then why bother posting the deck for help?)

Becuase I wanted to get my idea out there. I didn't really want to embetter this deck, I've been finely tuning it for almost a year. With innovation comes recognition, and that's what I was initially seeking.

dude 666
08-30-2008, 01:30 PM
I can't argue with that, especially when you're blindly criticizing the deck with flawed logic and unintelligent responses.

I'm really not trying to argue with you and waste energy.


How about you prove my arguments are illogical and unintelligent- any idiot can just say, "your arguments are flawed and stupid, therefore I winzorzz".
If anything would be considered an unintelligent response, I gotta say it would be your post.




Becuase I wanted to get my idea out there. I didn't really want to embetter this deck, I've been finely tuning it for almost a year. With innovation comes recognition, and that's what I was initially seeking.

Well thank you for sharing your wonderful, finely-tuned idea. You will certainly be recognized for this ingenius innovation. I've already dedicated all my sb slots for this beast.

4eak
08-30-2008, 02:28 PM
I just have a few quick comments/suggestions.

- As others may have suggested, this deck really has no place in a combo-rich metagame. It doesn't seem likely that it could be made competitive against combo decks either, but that is fine with me. This deck is a metagame choice and it seems like a straightforward beat-down deck (something we don't really see in eternal formats).

- Vexing Shusher, pardon the expression, is straight pimp & tits. 2 for 2/2 isn't bad, but the abilities are no joke. I'd consider using it in this deck despite its targetability. It can push through key spells through permission, and frankly, this deck needs that.

- If you don't use Shusher, then consider Vial. It has limitations, obviously, but it is an amazing card that leaves your mana open to play other things, like enchantments.

- While it may not immediately appear to fit, I think that a deck with enchantments, especially recurring enchantments like Rancor, should really consider: Argothian Enchantress. Be honest, this deck isn't going to be winning very fast. Having the ability to consistently refuel your hand gives you the ability to drop threats more consistently. Enchantress is card advantage and it isn't easy to kill either.

- Drove of Elves might be win more, but check it out.

- You have forests; Goyf is worth testing.

peace,
4eak

Maëlig
08-30-2008, 03:03 PM
it's pretty difficult [to play an aura-based deck] in a format where spot removal is prevalent.
You know what else is prevalent in the format? EE and deed. Until someone comes up with a good answer to this, I don't think that this kind of deck can be viable for now. I like the concept, though.

TheLion
08-30-2008, 03:14 PM
EE and deed. Until someone comes up with a good answer to this, [...]

Obviously Pithing Needle?

Maëlig
08-30-2008, 03:20 PM
Probably not enough, especially since lots of control decks now run both of these, and can obviously counter your needles. By "a good answer to this", I do not mean a single card that is supposed to solve the problem on its own. Maybe I should have said "a good strategy".

Willoe
08-30-2008, 04:15 PM
I count 12.

A typo. I meant 12.

But do you have a comment on the rest I posted? If not, then I'll repost:

Go check your curve:

1cc - 18
2cc - 8
3cc - 12

That's definetely something to work with.

Other than that, I think you're intended deaf for critique at your deck. Look, we're not only telling you that your deck is bad. I don't think it's bad. But you might want to consider listening to what some of the other guys say. I might just be a random sourcer, but some of the other (I think you know who they are) are very clever at metagaming, card choices and so on. Therefore, you should really listen to them instead of just shouting "Here is my deck, that should really be an established one 'cause it is, mwhaha" in our faces.

MTG Guru
08-30-2008, 04:40 PM
Maybe upping the count of Taoist Hermit to 4, as well as Armadillo Cloak might make Counterbalance alot less menacing. Though running high cc cards slows the deck down, obviously, so I'm not quite sure. Do I need to sacrifice speed becuase of one matchup? What do you guys think?

Willoe
08-30-2008, 04:49 PM
Threshold is just one matchup. 20% of the average field consists of threshold, and at a larger tournament, you can be 99% sure that Threshold reaches top8. Yes, you do need to sacrifice other matchups to make the Threshold matchup good.

MTG Guru
08-30-2008, 04:52 PM
Threshold is just one matchup. 20% of the average field consists of threshold, and at a larger tournament, you can be 99% sure that Threshold reaches top8. Yes, you do need to sacrifice other matchups to make the Threshold matchup good.

So are you "for" the Taoist Hermit count being upped, or no? It'll probably hurt my Goblins matchup after cutting Slippery Bogle and Holy Strength. I'm not sure if I want to go that route. What exactly is on your mind?

dude 666
08-30-2008, 05:13 PM
Play oblivion ring. There so many permanents that fuck you over, counterbalance is just one of them. O-ring solves this. Also, krosan grip is sometimes the correct choice, if the meta allows it.

MTG Guru
08-30-2008, 07:17 PM
Oblivion Ring is actually a really good idea. Thanks for the suggestion. :smile:

I also think it's pretty ideal in the deck since I can cast them on the second turn via mana elves and Ancient Tombs.

Note: I will respond to all of your comments eventually, I'm just so pressed for time right now.

Carabas
08-30-2008, 10:18 PM
I think that some cards could get borrowed from Enchantress, namely Karmic Justice as a card v. mass removal, and Sterling Grove v. aura removal, and also a way to pull up O ring or any enchantments that you might SB in.

Captain_Morgan
08-30-2008, 11:55 PM
Sterling Grove, maybe Runed Halo to chump down annoying stuff as well?

TheInfamousBearAssassin
08-30-2008, 11:55 PM
Berserk Stompy, for all that it blows over in a stiff wind, can race Wrath. You say that your deck usually wins before they can get to Humility mana, but I simply don't see where this is true. I can see one very specific set of cards that would allow you, if completely unmolested, to kill them on turn four, and that's only going to stop Wrath if you're on the play. To be honest, that's not that fast for an aggro deck, and it's definitely not that fast for one which lacks any disruption of it's own. The enemy can molest your plans, but you can't molest theirs. How can you hope to contend with decks that either have faster game plans, or have ways of breaking yours (most of them)?

I think the fundamental flaw here is that you're building around Daybreak Coronet. Is that advisable? You could simply be running G/W midrange with some small disruption elements, more wrath resilience and Jitte. In what matchup is your current strategy stronger?

MTG Guru
08-31-2008, 11:42 AM
I know this deck might seem bad on paper, but having no removal, surprisingly is one of the things that makes this deck "good". The theory behind this, is that it has a more focused gameplan and doesn't care about what your opponent has on the opposite side of the board. Adding removal will only dilute the deck to the point of inconsistency and the probability of drawing more dead cards. I see where you guys are coming from, and I understand your logic, but there is an underlying strategy to the deck that you're overlooking. More removal ensues in less threats, less threats ensues in less ways to kill your opponent in a due amount of time. I rather be casting something that allows me to win, rather than try to coerce my opponent from winning himself. I know this sounds odd and hard to fathom, but if you think about it long enough, it might actually make sense to you.

dude 666
08-31-2008, 01:31 PM
You're missing the point. You're not combo (and even combo runs protection and interactive spells), and you're not a fast deck. You're running a deck with creatures and auras!!, so if your opponent is playing an interactive game, you're not gonna be fast enough to dodge their disruption. And trust me, this deck is very easy to disrupt.

I can have an extremely focused strategy of beating my opponent down with poison counters, and I can run 0 removal as well. How good will my deck be?

MTG Guru
08-31-2008, 03:00 PM
I don't think I'm missing the point, at all. One of the largest elements of disruption is spot removal. The deck cannot be disrupted at all, in that sense. Making spot removal dead draws for my opponent is extremely relevent. And how exactly do you determine the speed of the deck if you've never tested it? I usually am attacking for 14 trample damage or more by the fourth turn. Arguing for the sake of conclusions and resolution is a debate. Arguing for the sake of arguing is not a debate and results in 'going around in circles' and leads to never achieving a conclusion. That being said, I think that you are easily influenced by what other people say and you don't go by what you know is best. I mean, seriously, how many times are you caught saying "win more" and "why not play X deck instead"? I would take you more seriously if you weren't such a "follower" and didn't portray yourself as an intelligent human being, which really is only influenced by what you've seen and heard and not based on your own intellectual capabilities.

Willoe
08-31-2008, 03:05 PM
You aren't faster than Engineered Explosives, Pernicious Deed and/or mass removal like Damnation and Wrath of God.

Therefore, you'll have to have the ability to recover from those spells which are considered as disruption as well. Volrath's Stronghold and some black mana sources?

MTG Guru
08-31-2008, 03:13 PM
You aren't faster than Engineered Explosives, Pernicious Deed and/or mass removal like Damnation and Wrath of God.

Therefore, you'll have to have the ability to recover from those spells which are considered as disruption as well. Volrath's Stronghold and some black mana sources?

I think splashing black will hurt the manabase too much. I actually intended gaddock teeg to be an anti wrath/damnation card. Pithing Needle can also be factor as well versus deed and EE, though deed is rather slow, and not too devastating if you don't over extend. Popping an EE for two also has a very miniscule effect since alot of my cards are 3cc. The sideboard should definitely be adjusted according to the metagame, but I don't really fear the cards you've mentioned, since recovering from those spells is an essentially easy task.

dude 666
08-31-2008, 03:31 PM
OK. You talk a lot of shit, but from what you say it is pretty obvious you have not tested this pile against landstill, or thresh, or any other deck you claim to beat, and for someone who bitches about others not testing his deck, thats pretty hypocritical. Unless you can somehow evade the logical arguments as to why your deck sucks, the least you could do is provide some matchup analysis and show through testing that this deck has a remote chance of beating anything.

Oh, and by the way, attacking my person doesn't give your arguments the least bit of substance, it only goes to show that you have no capabilites of defending your deck, and that it most likely does indeed suck. If you want to speak of intellectual abilites, why don't you do us all a favor and try to display yours?

MTG Guru
09-08-2008, 07:57 PM
So, I've just recently started testing this deck more. I have tested this deck, but I figured I'd do it to a further extent. I played two people today on MWS. First person I played was playing some casual Exalted Angel control deck with Nevinyrral's Disk and Wrath of God and wierd creatures and manabase. I totally crushed him over the course of 6 games (I also played him last night). I think I only lost 1 or 2 games versus him out of the 12 that I played. I was pretty much able to recover from both Wrath of God, Porphoryal Nodes (spelling), Engineered Explosives, Cataclysm and Nevinyrral's Disk in all the games that I played against him. I just didn't overextend. He also popped an Explosive for 1 against me. I had 4 one mana enchantments on a Slippery Bogle, he 5 for 1'ed me, and I still won that game. I also played against Meathooks to a 2-1 finish as well. My creatures got bigger than his faster and I crushed him sooner. He Forced of Willed some stupid creature cards and used Daze to counter some auras he didn't like. The last game he must of been ashamed about losing to a janky deck so he quit on me the turn before he realized I was going to win. He had no cards in hand and 3 2/2 slivers in play but it didn't matter becuase he was at 2 life or so and I had three larger sized creatures in play and one with trample. He also got Standstill out against me, I popped it, he had two Aether Vials set at 2, and I still won.

This deck is stupid fun to play. I love crushing people with huge ass creatures that they can't do anything about. Anyways, I'll keep you guys updated on my matchups as soon as I do some more testing.

Mirrislegend
09-10-2008, 10:23 AM
I wish this deck was legacy viable. I really do. It's certainly funky and synergistic enough for my tastes. That being said, IBA covered this deck's weaknesses, and said weaknesses are major.

I'd say drop the Coronet. It's a win more card. If you have a guy carrying a Coronet, he's already carrying something decent. Instead, play the maximum number of one-sided Shroud men; run Jittes, Rancors, maybe some Armadillo Cloaks as your buff package; and fill in the rest with Swords, Needle, Vial/Llanowar, Grip, etc. Ta-daa, insta-fun! Now with more consistency and resiliency!

MTG Guru
09-10-2008, 02:47 PM
I wish this deck was legacy viable. I really do. It's certainly funky and synergistic enough for my tastes. That being said, IBA covered this deck's weaknesses, and said weaknesses are major.

I'd say drop the Coronet. It's a win more card. If you have a guy carrying a Coronet, he's already carrying something decent. Instead, play the maximum number of one-sided Shroud men; run Jittes, Rancors, maybe some Armadillo Cloaks as your buff package; and fill in the rest with Swords, Needle, Vial/Llanowar, Grip, etc. Ta-daa, insta-fun! Now with more consistency and resiliency!

Did you even read my last post? This deck is Legacy viable. Coronet isn't a win more card, without it, I probably wouldn't be able to win, as easily or at all. And IBA is wrong. I played against a deck with 4 Wrath of God, 4 Cataclysm, 4 Porphyry Nodes, and 4 Engineered Explosives, and I still was able to beat him. You know how? With Rancor and not overextending. I also beat Meathooks, a tier 1/2 deck. Your suggestions are horrible, you need a better understanding on how the deck works. I also dislike people that look at the first list and not read the entire thread. Did you totally disregard my last post? I beat Meathooks for God's sake.

WiLdFiRe
09-10-2008, 02:54 PM
Did you even read my last post? This deck is Legacy viable. Coronet isn't a win more card, without it, I probably wouldn't be able to win, as easily or at all. And IBA is wrong. I played against a deck with 4 Wrath of God, 4 Cataclysm, 4 Porphyry Nodes, and 4 Engineered Explosives, and I still was able to beat him. You know how? With Rancor and not overextending. I also beat Meathooks, a tier 1/2 deck. Your suggestions are horrible, you need a better understanding on how the deck works. I also dislike people that look at the first list and not read the entire thread. Did you totally disregard my last post? I beat Meathooks for God's sake.

Sure, you beat Meathooks - what did you lose to? Sounds like your opponent's UW deck ran removal and very little else, not exactly stellar.

Your deck can't beat Threshold or Landstill, deal with it.

georgjorge
09-10-2008, 03:06 PM
I'm going to test this deck, it looks fun.

But I really think a black splash isn't going to hurt the manabase too much, not for Stronghold but for four Thoughtseize and maybe also Duress or Therapy, to disrupt the aforementioned CBalance/Wrath/Deed etc. I'm sure there are also some busted Auras in black the deck could use...

Also, running Ancient Tomb almost exclusively to power out a second turn Taoist seems really bad (the other spells use too much colored mana). Those can be other lands.

MTG Guru
09-10-2008, 03:17 PM
I'm going to test this deck, it looks fun.

But I really think a black splash isn't going to hurt the manabase too much, not for Stronghold but for four Thoughtseize and maybe also Duress or Therapy, to disrupt the aforementioned CBalance/Wrath/Deed etc. I'm sure there are also some busted Auras in black the deck could use...

Also, running Ancient Tomb almost exclusively to power out a second turn Taoist seems really bad (the other spells use too much colored mana). Those can be other lands.

Thanks for the input. I'm pretty sure that disruption might help, but I wouldn't run anymore than 4 Thoughtseize. Reason being, this might dilute the deck to a state of not being able to play gamebreaking auras or threats like you should. It's a decent idea and worth testing though. As for the Ancient Tomb, they're also in there to power out Battle Mastery quicker, which through testing, has earned itself the title of, "my favorite card in the deck."

Peter_Rotten
09-10-2008, 06:48 PM
Since my current new hobby is MWS testing one-hit wonders and bad decks with ridiculous claims, I'm very excited about this deck and its discussion. I look foward to tomorrow. Likely, it will rank up there with the following accomplished deck lists

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11060

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10896

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=19380

MTG Guru
09-10-2008, 09:28 PM
That sounds good, Peter. Keep me updated on your results. :smile:

raharu
09-10-2008, 09:57 PM
Remember to test Ugbw landstill! :laugh:

Also, don't forget thresh. I'm actually very interested in this MU, as it could be a good choice in my threshold-infested metagame (note I'm in Texas... Sarcasm abounds).

Peter_Rotten
09-11-2008, 10:53 AM
No one says GG to this deck :cry:

Anyway, first a mini-report and then some suggestions:

Round 1 vs Relentless Rats with Equipment.
G1 - Wasteland Pwns my mana and Keg pwns my other mana. Rats carrying ancient Japanese weapons pwn my face.
G2 - I mully to 4! But load up a Troll with 100 different enchantments FTW. System Player Lost.

1-1

Round 2 vs Leechridden Swamp
G1 - He plays Leechridden Swamp. I explain that Swamps are not black then win with bad critters enchanted.
G2 - He has bad enchantments of his own and we both forget taht he can't put them on SLippery Boggle. I'm about to win and then System Player Lost.

2-0

Round 3 vs DracoExplosion - FINALLY a relevant match.
G1 - A decent hand. My turn 2 Troll becomes 8/9 Lifelink, Vigialant, First Striking, Trampling, etc.
G2 - Explosion + Fireblast wins it for him.
G3 - I mully to 4 AGAIN but still win with a Rancored Slippery Boggle.

2-1

First, we need to do something about the mana base. Tomb is WORTHLESS in this deck. Replace them with a mix of more basics.

Second, Daybreak is cool but shouldn't be a four-of. There are times when it is d-d-d-dead.

Third, Taoist Monk - can't we find something else?

Foruth, Battle Readiness - GTFO. Sometimes it just sucks. Let's look for better enchantments.

Here are 4 cheaper enchantments that could replace a Daybreak or 2 and The Battle Readiness:

Ancestral Mask
Armor of Thorns
Elephant Guide
Griffin Guide
Moldervine Cloak

Hell, if you want to hit 4cc, you can play either Embrace enchantment.

MTG Guru
09-11-2008, 11:47 AM
Round 3 vs DracoExplosion - FINALLY a relevant match.
G1 - A decent hand. My turn 2 Troll becomes 8/9 Lifelink, Vigialant, First Striking, Trampling, etc.
G2 - Explosion + Fireblast wins it for him.
G3 - I mully to 4 AGAIN but still win with a Rancored Slippery Boggle.

2-1


Seems to me like you won this matchup. Shouldn't you be 3-1?


First, we need to do something about the mana base. Tomb is WORTHLESS in this deck. Replace them with a mix of more basics.


You might be right. But remember that Ancient Tomb can be good versus Daze. Obviously that's not the only reason I run it, but still.


Second, Daybreak is cool but shouldn't be a four-of. There are times when it is d-d-d-dead.


I love Daybreak Coronet. I'd probably will cut it down to three though. I wouldn't go any less than that, it flat out wins games for me.


Third, Taoist Monk - can't we find something else?


I'm not sure. I like Hermit though. It's good versus Counterbalance, and there isn't any other Troll Ascetic-like creatures that I know of, that are not already included in the deck.


Foruth, Battle Readiness - GTFO. Sometimes it just sucks. Let's look for better enchantments.

Here are 4 cheaper enchantments that could replace a Daybreak or 2 and The Battle Readiness:

Ancestral Mask
Armor of Thorns
Elephant Guide
Griffin Guide
Moldervine Cloak


Battle Mastery is actually really good in an aggro infested metagame. I love this card too much to cut it. Test it more and you'll see what I mean. It wins games strait up in certain situations.


Hell, if you want to hit 4cc, you can play either Embrace enchantment.

I originally ran Serra's Embrace in the deck. That's probably the main reason I chose to run Ancient Tomb. But now that it's out of the deck, it's probably safe to cut the Tombs.


No one says GG to this deck


Obviously not, if you went 3-0. :wink:

georgjorge
09-11-2008, 11:55 AM
An advice for testing: If you want it to be relevant, get out of the game as soon as you see your first Relentless Rat or Leechridden Swamp :wink:

Forbiddian
09-11-2008, 11:58 AM
Anyway, I decided to test this deck.

Here's detailed match analysis, first against netdecked Imperial Painter. The start looks kinda bad, but this is seriously the match results. I'm playing both decks, and I'm sure I make play mistakes.



Painter rolled 20 vs. 6, chooses to play.
Painter (P1) keeps hand with Painter, Tomb, two mountains, SoL, Mox, and REB.

Auras.dec (P2) mulliganned hand with three auras and four land.
Kept hand with Horizon Canopy, two elves, holy strength, plains and ancient tomb. X.X.

Painter plays Painter naming blue. 18.

P2 tops a hermit and plays the elf. 19.

P1 tops another sword olas and plays sword. 16.

P2 plays Tomb Hermit Rancor (topped). 16.

P1 tops a Pyro and double blasts the lands, equipping SoLAS on the painter and swinging. 17.

P2 draws a cloak, plays the elf, and plays the holy strength. Doesn't swing. 13.

P1 tops a shusher (Mox and Sword in hand). Unsure of what to do, I cast the shusher and pass.

P2 tops a Troll Ascetic and plays the cloak, swinging this turn. 20.

P1 draws Servent and casts it, naming white. 10.

P2 draws a land, plays Ascetic, swings with 7/6. P2 chumps with the 3/5 painter. 27 (to 8).

P1 tops a pyroblast, counts carefully, plays SoLAS, keeping r untapped. 6.

P2 draws forest, plays forest, swings with all. P1 blocks the ascetic with the shusher, blocks an elf with the small painter, pyros the cloak, and blocks the hermit with the big painter, taking 1. 27 to 5.

P1 draws a lightning bolt. Swings for 3 to recur the shusher, casts shusher and equips Sword on the Servant. 6.

P2 tops Rancor, omg, lol. Casts it on the troll, swings with all again. Digs out a Savannah with the Heath (should have done that before, oh well). Shusher chumps the Ascetic, painter blocks the Hermit, P1 takes 4 and goes to 2.

P1 tops lightning bolt. Uhm, yeah, passes.

P2 tops a daybreak coronet. GG.


G2

P1 keeps a hand of City, Mountain, Mox, Whelp, REB, Imperial Recruiter, Jaya.

P2 keeps a hand of Holy strength, Elf, Cloak, Silhana, Daybreak Coronet, Windswept Heath, Forest.

P1 Mountain, Go.

P2 draws a garden, casts elf off of the garden. 18.

P1 tops another Recruiter, plays City of Traitors and recruits a Painter. 20.

P2 draws a plains, uses Heath to dig a Savannah and plays Silhanna with Holy Strength.

P1 tops a Spirit Guide, uses that and the chrome mox (imprinting Whelp) to cast Jaya and Paint the world Blue.

P2 tops a Coronet and plays the Cloak (Jaya would ping the Holy Strength next turn) instead of Coronet. Swings for four. 22 to 16.

P1 tops an Ancient Tomb. Yeah. Passes the dice.

P2 tops birds. Casts Coronet. Swings in. Jaya pitches a tomb to kill the Cloak and REB kills the Strength. Painter kills the 1/1. Ouch.

P1 tops another tomb. Recruits a Magus and regrets imprinting the Dragon Whelp earlier. Still at 16.

P2 tops a land, passes. P1 at endstep kills the Birds with a tomb.

P1 tops a Chrome Mox, casts Magus, swings with servant and the recruiters. 19.

P2 tops a heath. Ouch. Passes. At endstep, the forest dies (P2 has Plains, Mountain x2 out and two mountains in hand).

P1 tops a SoLAS and swings for 5 (not Jaya). 14. Jaya kills the elf.

P2 tops a hermit, but has no G. Plays a mountain.

P1 swings for 5 and blasts the plains.

P2 doesn't top a basic.

P1 swings for 5.

P2 doesn't top a basic. GG.



G3. This will be shorthand.

P1 has in his opening hand: Mountain, City, Tomb, Grindstone, Recruiter. GG. Omg, he tops a Chrome Mox. Oh, nm, doesn't help, GS costs 4 to play and activate. Turn 1 Tomb, Mox, Recruit for Painter (18). Turn 2 City, painter (16), grindstone. Unstoppable BS.

P2 kept a good looking hand of like Rancor, Ascetic, Birds and shit, whatever. Two land. Didn't have a turn 3 kill in it, though.



So it went 1-2 vs. Painter playing unsideboarded matches. Probably you have more answers coming in vs. game 2+, so maybe you even beat Painter on average (although in three games, I only saw one grindstone when there were dozens of turns where topping any of those four would have been insta-GG). It went 1-1 against Painter when Painter was going through the backup route of Painter + LD because it couldn't find Grindstone.


It seems really clear to me that you're not running proper playtests with your deck. I'm sure you'd be a better pilot than I was (I walked into the REB going 3:1 in game 2), although I couldn't justify why you WOULDN'T try that play, even knowing Jayas was there to rape you of the Cloak. Actually, now that I think about it, I cheated. The 1/1 was unblockable, so it was only a 2:1 deal. Didn't affect the game much, though.



Anyway, I digress. Your deck does NOT kill consistently on Turn 4. You're massively overselling it when you pretend that it does or that it can sneak under wrath consistently. Even without much disruption (like Turn 1 Magus can happen), your deck did not even dodge a Painters Servant with a single Sword on it very well.

The other thing is that we're not comparing your deck to the bare minimum of possibility. When we say your deck can't consistently recover from Wrath, we mean that you have trouble COMPARED TO OTHER DECKS. If you give us examples of your deck bouncing back from a wrath, it's meaningless. There are tons of times UW casts Wrath and then RG beats drops a Tarmogoyf the next turn which goes to town.

The other thing is that nothing in your deck is a must-counter. That's a total oversell, and it's obvious why you'd beat opponents who treat Holy Strength or Llanowar Elves as Force of Will targets. An Armadillo Cloak is closer to a joke than a must-counter. It cashes in for like 4-6 damage and 4-6 lifegain for you (that's in a game where you have such an enchanted monster swinging for 3 straight turns).

Mindslaver is a must-counter. Welder is a must-counter. Armadillo Cloak is a threat. It adds 2 damage a turn. It's a 2/2 Haste, Untargettable, Gain ~4 life per swing creature for 3 mana. Maybe that's good, but it's nowhere near being a "must counter."




Anyway, the problem with the deck is creatures. You only run 14 usable targets for Enchantments (I'm assuming you want to party down with ensuring your Opponent doesn't swords your stuff for card and tempo advantage). You can like Cloak a birds or something, but it's not the "must counter omg!!!" thing that you're selling it as).

Ok, if I mana leak your Troll Ascetic on turn 2, you're looking at a turn 3 hermit or something. If I have another counterspell for that (not impossible), you're already set back to turn 4 and you don't have a drop down. It's almost guaranteed that control will counter your first drop (unless it's the T1 1/1, which has a slower clock anyway), and that puts you back an entire turn no matter how you cut it.

Usually control runs like 8-10 Cspells, so even if they don't resolve Countertop on you, they can probably delay your creature pressure until you're in Wrath of God range.



Basically, look at it this way. You understand how targetted removal would screw you over and how dodging it grants pseudo card advantage. Instead, they're playing that against you by countering your creature threats. This makes all those enchantments 100% dead (same as their Swords to Plowshares, except they only run 4 swords instead of like... 20).

RG Beats and other aggro gets around this because they invest less heavily in creatures. Mana Leaking a Mogg Fanatic isn't the best idea. They can still play one, maybe two other things that turn, which you won't be able to counter because you wasted it on the Fanatic. Your deck relies really heavily on resolving a creature threat, whether you recognize it or not, that's difficult to do against skilled players in this metagame.

I'm sure you'll beat a lot of people who don't understand this and who are like: Hmm, sure, Hermit Resolves (wtf? lol, what a noob card!). And then like 3 turns later it's huge and they're eating their words. I'm also sure it probably has some good matchups. I think it'd be strong against goblins, since even a Holy Strength on an untargettable is a huge wall to a 1/1 lackey until you can drop like Cloaks and Coronets on it.

But as soon as people figure out you only run like 20 creatures and 6 of those are Elves and Birds, they're going to just counter all your creature drops (as control). Anything that gets through they'll WoG away.


That's what people mean about consistency. Maybe you can deal with Cspell. Maybe then you can deal with a WoG. But Control NORMALLY plays so that counters and WoG give them time and occasionally get them solid card advantage. Vs. you, they can actually play a 1:1 game and expect to always have an answer to your questions (since your only REAL question is a creature).


Like I said, I'm sure you'll trash a lot of noobs on MWS who don't know what to counter (if they're countering armadillo cloaks, you already won). You also might trash some decks that just can't deal with a turn 5ish clock and no targettable threats. Esp. after Tarmo, a lot of decks rely on Snuff or Smother to deal with the creature threats (since Edict is not viable).

You will probably even take a few games against good players who don't figure your deck out fast enough. I guess that's the definition of rogue, so by that standard a good rogue deck.

It sounds like you thought this was an unbeatable new archetype, though.



Combo just obliterates you (Turn 5 clock is a joke in this format, sorry, even turn 4 is a joke (and that's being generous to your deck), they'd have to mulligan to oblivion), and even counting Swords as dead cards, they've got more answers in Counters and WoGs and EEs and Kegs than you have creatures.


A lot of people in this thread are writing you off because you came off like an arrogant prick and you didn't take the legit criticisms well at all (even using ad hominem, over and over). A lot of the criticisms were just about the general crappiness of some cards (e.g. Holy Strength, which would go to 12th+ pick in drafts even), and people ignored any strengths you deck might have.


Its strengths are simple: It's something nobody has done before, and it kills people before they have too much time to think. It also has good matchups against most aggro.

Its weaknesses are just as simple: It can't disrupt the opponent's gameplan short of saying, "You will die in four to five turns, good luck." Which is basically a full turn slower than Tier 1 Aggro decks. This makes it weak against combo. Secondly, most of its cards are dependent on having a creature in play. It's hard to exploit that weakness vs. untargettables, but permission decks have many more options (once they figure out which spells to counter). Lastly, you have no source of burn or haste creatures or anything. Wrath of God guarantees a Time Walk. Moat is GG. Your deck has to somewhere get 20 damage (and not cheat by Fireblasting or something like all the burn decks do). Even 15 damage pre-wrath might not be enough to seal the game, because you still need one more enchanted swing.

Peter_Rotten
09-11-2008, 12:22 PM
I just beat Ivory Tower/Phryexian Arena deck. Of course it ends with SystemPlayerLost. Game two was a beating - Powder Keg, Damnation, and LD pwned my face; however I came back in game 3 with no permanants in play except the 1G guy with Rancor and a Troll.

In all seriousness, mass removal is a kick in the junk for this deck. At least Edict effects are not TOO bad since you can usually sac a BoP or Elf.

Shugyosha
09-11-2008, 12:59 PM
Shielding Plax
Enchantment - Aura, 2{G/U} (3)
({G/U} can be paid with either {G} or {U}.)
Enchant creature
When Shielding Plax comes into play, draw a card.
Enchanted creature can't be the target of spells or abilities your opponents control.

Running this could lead into a direction where you don't have to play shitty creatures (Taoist for example) just because they have one-sided shroud. And it fucking cantrips! It can still be countered by removal, but with careful timing it will do. At least it will always replace itself when played on a "shroud" creature when you need gas.


Speaking of cards Drove of Elves (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/112.html) and Veilstone Amulet (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/166.html) are probably shitty but maybe someone sees more than i do.

MTG Guru
09-11-2008, 01:52 PM
Shielding Plax is horrible. They can kill the creature in response to you playing it. It definitely won't replace any of the untargetable creatures in the deck.

Peter_Rotten
09-11-2008, 05:08 PM
I just held off a turn 3 PDreadnuoght with a Slippery Boggle with double Rancor and double Daybreak. Unfortunately a suprise B2B pwned my mana base and I eventually lost to a Powder Keg.

Shugyosha
09-11-2008, 05:19 PM
Shielding Plax is horrible. They can kill the creature in response to you playing it. It definitely won't replace any of the untargetable creatures in the deck.

Depends on the list and how you play it. Imagine you have a Birds and a Goyf out. Now you (tap Birds for mana and) play Shielding Plax on the Birds. Your opponent kills the birds in response, so what? Even at this 2 for 1 I would be happy to have his removal misdirected at my birds. If he doesn't kill the birds he will have one hell of a flying problem later on.
Even if spotremoval catchs you once or twice he can't hit everything. Most decks don't play 15-20 removal spells...

Forbiddian
09-11-2008, 06:29 PM
A lot of decks run four WoGs and lots of counters and more draw.

If they see 40% more cards from their draw engines, you have virtually no chance of resolving a creature and leaving it there, especially if you invest so much in random crap like a useless enchantment on a birds.

Imagine a much more common situation: You have Birds and Goyf. You enchant your birds. Your opponent Swords's your Goyf and laughs in your face because you're passing on your turn 3 and you only have a 0/1 untargetable in play and have done zero damage to him. You get four mana open on your next turn and have a 0/1 beatstick. If you invest 1 or 2 enchantments, it's a manageable 2/3 or 4/5 (well in the realm of standard Goyf expectations, only your enemy is at 20 instead of the 16 he'd be at turn 4 facing a goyf deck). If you lay down another creature threat, it takes an entire turn extra before you'll do any damage. It's basically GG at this point. He can counter your second creature or walk you into WoG. That buys him time to get out more answers.

Sure, you drew a card, so you're even in that respect, but you lost so much tempo investing in no damage. You wasted turn 3.


The deck doesn't need more stuff to make its creatures hurt, it needs more creatures to be more consistent and resistant to mass removal removal. Also, cost to power ratio is not as big a deal in this deck as it would be for other aggro.The difference between an 8/7 Troll and a 7/7 hermit isn't much. More importantly the difference between a 10/11 Goyf (if you resolve the untargetable enchantment) and a 6/6 basic untargettable is not much, especially if you suddenly make all of your opponent's targeted removal turn from useless to 2:1s or better with tempo.



Not that I think the deck is viable, but the criticisms and suggestions in this thread are pretty craptastic (other than running EQ, which is, like... 1,000,000 times better than auras).

Shugyosha
09-12-2008, 06:56 AM
Imagine a much more common situation: You have Birds and Goyf. You enchant your birds. Your opponent Swords's your Goyf and laughs in your face because you're passing on your turn 3 and you only have a 0/1 untargetable in play and have done zero damage to him.


1. If you play the Plax before you attack with the Goyf to see if he has spot removal you are surely wasting alot of damage. But this not Plax's fault but simply bad play.

2. Birds make mana so you can technically play another spell (depending on the turn).

3. The turn after you enchant your Birds with some crazy stuff and win from then on because it has shroud and evasion. Your opponent plays Wrath of God? Whats the point, mass removal will always hurt. Wasting a full turn? See 1.

I'm not saying that Plax is the card to go but its a route the deck can go. Don't be so ignorant about it just because everybody tells you that enchanting a targetable creature is always bad. Cause it isn't. It always depends on the creature, the enchantment and your opponents deck.

Forbiddian
09-12-2008, 07:21 AM
The problem isn't Plax, it's your inability to understand why this deck is even theoretically possible.

I also explained the situation perfectly. It doesn't matter WHEN you play the Plax, the Swords is played during the combat step:


Turn 1 Birds,
Turn 2 Goyf,
Turn 3 Swing first (obviously, then obviously eat the swords). Then what do you do? Plax the birds? If not, Plax obviously sucks. If you do, you're SOOOOO many turns behind.
Turn 4 you're just starting to enchant the birds. At most you could get like 2, maybe 3 enchantments on it and walk into WoG after only a single swing.

The problem isn't the Plax perse, it's that you're trying to undermine all the deck synergies by running bigger but targetable threats. That's the opposite of what this deck wants to do. This deck would gladly have a 1/1 instead of a 3/4 for the guarantee that their opponent could not timewalk them with a swords and for the guarantee that enchantments won't get 2:1'd with loads of tempo.



The deck tries to get like a turn 2 ascetic, enchant the shit out of it on turn 3, and then swing in turns 3 and 4 for as much damage as possible. That's hard-er-ish to stop because opponents that normally rely on Swords to deal with fast creature threats are left without answers until turn 4 when Deed or WoG or EE come online (they could play EE on turn 2 against Tamo but not against Hermit or Ascetic, also important).

If opponents could swords your guys, this deck would be even more disruptable.



Think of it this way: You could get a 2/2 for 3 untargetable in Hermit or you could get a 4/5 untargetable for 2 mana one turn and 3 mana another turn that requires a two-card combo AND you're vulnerable for an entire turn to Swords and Smother and buddies.

Don't be so ignorant just because everyone tells you that Tarmogoyf is so good. GFG.

Zinch
09-12-2008, 09:11 AM
Don't be so ignorant just because everyone tells you that Tarmogoyf is so good.


QFT. More so when you rely on your opponent to make the gaoyf big, because you don't run neither sorceries not instants...

Honestly, I think te only strenght of this deck is its rogueness because if your opponent doesn't know what you're playing, won't Fow your boggle and then he will be in trouble, but on the second match you are dead

Shugyosha
09-12-2008, 02:40 PM
QFT. More so when you rely on your opponent to make the gaoyf big, because you don't run neither sorceries not instants...

Honestly, I think te only strenght of this deck is its rogueness because if your opponent doesn't know what you're playing, won't Fow your boggle and then he will be in trouble, but on the second match you are dead

Tarmogoyf is good. In this deck too. Hell its even good if you don't play Instant or sorceries. If you deny that Tarmogoyf is a good creature we don't have to discuss this further...

If your opponent won't FOW Bogle he surely FOWs a Armadillo (sp?) Cloak on it, No?

That's my point here. The creatures are by itself weak. What does this deck do if it mostly draws creatures? I never said to cut Ledgewalker or Ascetic. But adding Goyfs will give this deck more consistency. Either make spot removal not useable at all or play Goyf. With that in mind you can think of Plax.

But I guess you won't because you don't believe people when they tell you that Goyf is good...

Peter_Rotten
09-12-2008, 02:47 PM
There was a match I totally punted and was left with 7 enchantments in my hand. I was actually discarding enchantments during that match :frown:.

Forbiddian
09-12-2008, 06:37 PM
If your opponent won't FOW Bogle he surely FOWs a Armadillo (sp?) Cloak on it, No?

You want him to blow his force on your cloak if at all possible. You have like 20 creature enchantments and 14 creatures. Look at the decklist again.

The problem is if you switched creatures out for targetable creatures, then your opponent can spot remove your creatures and get away with mistakes like countering your enchantments.

If they swords your tamo and have a thoughtseize, it's reasonably likely to think that you won't have ANY creatures left and you'll be left with tons of dead enchantments. Then you lose.

If Tamo had been something untargetable, you could still use those enchantments, even if some get countered or w/e.

But I guess you don't understand that, because you think a 3/4 for 2 is such a good tradeoff even if it leaves you completely vulnerable to everything. The extra 2 power is NOT worth the risk of losing all your tempo and cards in hand.


Tamogoyf is arguably the best creature ever printed and is more played in every format than any card since like Necropotence. It didn't change any formats like Necro or Academy, but I can't think of any card that was played in T2, 1.x, 1.5, limited, and T1 (although Green got banned in Type 1). Maybe skullclamp.

That doesn't mean that he (it?) belongs in this deck.

MTG Guru
09-12-2008, 07:43 PM
There was a match I totally punted and was left with 7 enchantments in my hand. I was actually discarding enchantments during that match :frown:.

I find that hard to believe. That has never happened to me. Can you go into detail about this match, because I'm intrigued.

P.S. - Tarmogoyf definitely doesn't belong is this deck. There is too much creature removal, in this format, to reliably put 1-2 auras on tarmogoyf let alone 4-5, and that's what this deck aims to do with it's creatures.

Willoe
09-12-2008, 07:57 PM
Liar.

I don't understand this. Why would he lie about his matchup results? I want to have proven that this deck is as good as you say it is. It might have potential, but it's far from proven yet. Prove us with some reports, please.

MTG Guru
09-12-2008, 08:00 PM
Liar.

I don't understand this. Why would he lie about his matchup results? I want to have proven that this deck is as good as you say it is. It might have potential, but it's far from proven yet. Prove us with some reports, please.


I didn't say that. :confused:

I will test this deck further, though and provide you the results. Now all I need to do is find competent players online that enjoy playing Tier 1 decks. :laugh:

Peter_Rotten
09-12-2008, 08:19 PM
I find that hard to believe. That has never happened to me. Can you go into detail about this match, because I'm intrigued.

P.S. - Tarmogoyf definitely doesn't belong is this deck. There is too much creature removal, in this format, to reliably put 1-2 auras on tarmogoyf let alone 4-5, and that's what this deck aims to do with it's creatures.

I remember that I kept an enchantment heavy hand and my initial team was swept with something like EE. Then dumb luck struck and I just kept drawing enchantments and lands.

ssilver
09-12-2008, 10:44 PM
Does Shield of the Oversoul have a place in this deck?
Edit: Creatures getting countered hurts... Silhana ledgewalker is the best creature here, because the evasion...
Got killed several times by Grow on MWS... didn't know people still played it.

raharu
09-12-2008, 11:36 PM
This thread makes my head hurt.

EDIT: P_R's situation, on paper, sounds less like random coincidence and more like something that could/ would/ will happen frequently. Dumb luck doesn't account for drawing 1 out of 3 cards just because the way the deck is crafted makes them dead.

Willoe
09-13-2008, 06:19 AM
I didn't say that. :confused:

I will test this deck further, though and provide you the results. Now all I need to do is find competent players online that enjoy playing Tier 1 decks. :laugh:

Yes you did, you just might have edited your post while I was typing mine.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to see the results.

Peter_Rotten
09-13-2008, 08:36 AM
This thread makes my head hurt.

EDIT: P_R's situation, on paper, sounds less like random coincidence and more like something that could/ would/ will happen frequently. Dumb luck doesn't account for drawing 1 out of 3 cards just because the way the deck is crafted makes them dead.

Play the deck. I will never say it's good, but it's hella-fun. It reminds me of the old days when it was cool to put Lure on your Craw Wurm.

But, really, the "secret" to beating the deck is to counter the Shroud critters.

The mana base is sorta yucky too. I've switched the Ancient Tombs to Horizon Canopy.

smoky squirrel
09-13-2008, 10:01 AM
So if mass sweep effects are indeed a problem, is it not a good idea to play Genesis? Just an idea...

Nonex
09-13-2008, 06:19 PM
I suggest taking a look at blue, it offers better auras IMHO. I've just improvised a list:

4 Tropical Island
5 Forest
6 Island
3 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath

4 Slippery Boggle
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Troll Ascetic
4 Taoist Hermit
2 Drove of Elves

4 Rancor
4 Unstable Mutation
4 Curiosity
4 Keen Sense
3 Infiltrator's Magemark
3 Auramancer's Guise

- The manabase: nothing special to say about it.

- The creatures: there aren't that many to choose, but I think we need as many as possible among 4cc or less. 18 seem ok to me.

- The auras: Rancor and Unstable Mutation are self-explanatory. Curiosity and Keen Sense are important to me because I've been playing control for so much time that I can't imagine a deck without some form of card draw; they don't need to be actually important. Infiltrator's Magemark is the best way I see to have unblockable creatures. Auramancer's Guise would be Daybreak Coronet's blue version.

I expect this list to be rather worse than the original one in this thread, but as another point of view it can be interesting. Chalice @ 1 should beat it alone though.

Lifeless
09-13-2008, 07:18 PM
Ya'll need to get these creatures something to ride. +2/+2 unblockable feels like it has a place in here. And it's Riding the Dilu Horse for fucks sake, the most flavorful card in Magic.

MTG Guru
09-13-2008, 09:07 PM
This thread makes my head hurt.

EDIT: P_R's situation, on paper, sounds less like random coincidence and more like something that could/ would/ will happen frequently. Dumb luck doesn't account for drawing 1 out of 3 cards just because the way the deck is crafted makes them dead.


And have you created something better for you to criticize me? Why don't you go and try to figure out another deck that can easily fit in Terramorphic Expanse.


The mana base is sorta yucky too. I've switched the Ancient Tombs to Horizon Canopy.

I've been considering doing the same thing. Since I cut the Serra's Embrace, I agree that there is no need for Ancient Tombs. The draw aspect of Horizon Canopy has always been stellar for me, so my afterthought was to add more of this card.


Ya'll need to get these creatures something to ride. +2/+2 unblockable feels like it has a place in here. And it's Riding the Dilu Horse for fucks sake, the most flavorful card in Magic.

Hell yeah. I was actually able to pick up one of these babies at SCG.com for $6.50 a while ago. It might actually be pretty solid in the deck as maybe a 2-3 of.


4 Tropical Island
5 Forest
6 Island
3 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath

4 Slippery Boggle
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Troll Ascetic
4 Taoist Hermit
2 Drove of Elves

4 Rancor
4 Unstable Mutation
4 Curiosity
4 Keen Sense
3 Infiltrator's Magemark
3 Auramancer's Guise

I actually like this list. I'm curious to see how well this version would perform. I look forward to playing around with this build, for kicks.

raharu
09-14-2008, 02:12 AM
And have you created something better for you to criticize me? Why don't you go and try to figure out another deck that can easily fit in Terramorphic Expanse.

Oh, so you've been around here for a while. You know, back when I was poor :laugh:. I remember those days. Yeah, I've made a few decks since then, I'd just rather keep them to myself. It's not because they're bad or I think they're super-secret metagame breaking tech, but they aren't anything far-off or hyper-innovative. Just solid decks that really don't need any help and aren't meta archetypes, or at least they don't have a thread on The Source. That, and I'm not an attention whore.

On a side note, I find it mildly amusing that my old decks that I built on a budget are better than the deck you've apparently put a year and a half into. Not to be a dick, just what I think. In all honesty I'd play something in the main that stops mass removal (something like phasing? Ghostway?) so you don't get >9000 for one'd. That, and have some sort of disruption. Actually, you get ganked by Serenity/ Cleanfall/ etc., so you might want do something about that (Replenish?) if you have Enchantress splash hate in your metagame. Or Second Sunrise, even though those are both incredibly janky solutions, I don't see much of a way around those two particular weaknesses otherwise. You still have to deal with fast combo/ fast decks in general. Chalices? Chants? Eh. The SB could look something like this:

Leyline of the Void/ Tormod's Crypt x4
Chalice of the Void x4
Orim's Chant x3/4
Second Sunrise x4/3

That's really white heavy :rolleyes: Eh, white shouldn't be hard to get, assuming you'll be pulling WW for Coronet anyway. Then you have problems with Humility and Counterbalance, and not much of an out for them. Are the Chants that useful? iDunno. Perhaps play 4 Sunrise and 3 KGrips in the board.

Peter_Rotten
09-14-2008, 09:05 AM
Play nice, boys. No need to get your panties in a twist over this deck.

Peter_Rotten
09-14-2008, 10:00 AM
Oh snap! Hase anyone suggested Evershrike yet? Might be interseting but I'd like to see a reliable way to put him in the yard from your hand.

MTG Guru
09-14-2008, 12:31 PM
Oh snap! Hase anyone suggested Evershrike yet? Might be interseting but I'd like to see a reliable way to put him in the yard from your hand.

Evershrike seems interesting. Some things don't appeal to me though. I'll explain some ups and downs.

Pros:

- It can dodge Wrath of God.

- It's great with multiple auras.

- It can defeat an opponent that counters all of your untargetable critters.

- It can be good in a hand with mostly auras. (the same situation that happened to Peter Rotten when testing.)

Cons:

- It can be Swords.

- You can lose card advantage if you stack too many auras on it and it's targeted with removal.

- It's 5 mana so it's probably a 2'of at most. It's a good late game card though.

All and all, I think that it should be tested. The fact that it's good against Wrath makes it appealing to me. I think you should test it Peter, and let me know if you like it.

raharu
09-14-2008, 02:23 PM
Oh snap! Hase anyone suggested Evershrike yet? Might be interseting but I'd like to see a reliable way to put him in the yard from your hand.
Mask of Memory and Moldervine Cloak (perhaps in conjunction with SDT, which would go a way towards justifying the Tombs in builds that still play them). MoM is just absurd, though, and with the nineteen metric fucktons of one-sided shroud in the deck it's not like they'll kill in in response to the equip. On that note, why isn't there a Jitte in any of these lists? Maybe it's too much tempo, but the deck doesn't really roll on tempo anyway.

Gambit
09-14-2008, 03:39 PM
Retether as a 2 of?

MTG Guru
09-14-2008, 06:23 PM
Retether as a 2 of?

Retether sounds interesting. Although, the best way to take advantage of it is through Moldervine Cloak, Briar Shield, etc. I'm not sure if it's the best possible card for the deck since I run less creatures than auras, making a topdecked creature more "rare" than a topdecked aura, for example. It's interesting nevertheless and warrants testing.


Mask of Memory and Moldervine Cloak (perhaps in conjunction with SDT, which would go a way towards justifying the Tombs in builds that still play them).

I kind of like this suggestion after Gambit suggested Retether. Evershrike also seems like a nice fit if you ever wanted to toy around with the whole Retether scheme.

Cards that I would consider to make the deck more resilient to Wrath of God include:

-Evershrike

-Moldervine Cloak

-Genesis

-Maybe Survival of the Fittest

-Retether.

I'd probably include any number of these cards in the deck to improve resiliency to mass removal. I'm not sure if it would hurt the overall theme or not, but it's worth testing this configuration.

raharu
09-14-2008, 07:22 PM
Evershrike is really overcosted to be played.

Cloak helps you retain creatures how?

SotF wat?

Retether is just a more limited Replenish.

Why not just play Second Sunrise if you're considering Retether/ Replenish? While you have to be holding it when they nerf the board, it restores the board state, lets you hold onto your tempo, is Instant speed, and is relevant in other matchups. Not many frequent ones, but is it relevant outside of Deed/ Wrath, which is important. Also, Retether and Replenish don't let you keep the currently theoretical SDTs and Masks of Memory (Mask should be played anyway).

Peter_Rotten
09-14-2008, 07:30 PM
OK, here's a radical overhaul idea.

Toss in Wild Mongrels. Use him to discard enchants/Evershrike. Replenish for the win.

MTG Guru
09-14-2008, 08:04 PM
Cloak helps you retain creatures how?

I never said it retained creatures. I clearly stated that Cloak works well with Retether since it's able to dredge more auras into the yard. I'm not saying it's the best idea, but we're just brainstorming here.


OK, here's a radical overhaul idea.

Toss in Wild Mongrels. Use him to discard enchants/Evershrike. Replenish for the win.

That's a whole different thread, buddy. :wink:

raharu
09-14-2008, 09:13 PM
I never said it retained creatures. I clearly stated that Cloak works well with Retether since it's able to dredge more auras into the yard. I'm not saying it's the best idea, but we're just brainstorming here.

Cards that I would consider to make the deck more resilient to Wrath of God include:

-Moldervine Cloak

...

I'd probably include any number of these cards in the deck to improve resiliency to mass removal.

Orly (emphasis mine)? At any rate, I like the thought of Moldervine Cloak and Mask of Memory with Evershrike and Animate Dead (note that Animate Dead doesn't work with Retether, but does with Replenish). While that sounds slow as fuck, I don't think that Evershrike is that fast anyway, and the deck itself isn't exactly Sir Speedy either.

EDIT: Random thought: Ornthopter. t1 Savanah -> Ornithopter -> Rancor, t2 Coronet, t3 Moldervine Cloak is
t1:0
t2: 5 lifelinked
t3: 8 lifelinked
t4: another 8 lifelinked and game.

Ouch. Situational? Hell yes. Stupid? Yeah.

MTG Guru
09-15-2008, 05:43 AM
I don't know about that, raharu. Ornithopter is targetable. Here's my most current list. I cut Ancient Tomb down to 2 and upped Taoist Hermit, as well as some other changes like Elvish Spirit Guide (MD) and Abeyance in the SB.

// Lands
2 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [RAV] Forest (3)
4 [RAV] Temple Garden
3 [CHK] Plains (4)
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [R] Savannah

// Creatures
4 [MR] Troll Ascetic
4 [GP] Silhana Ledgewalker
4 [EVE] Slippery Bogle
4 [P3] Taoist Hermit
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [UL] Rancor
4 [7E] Holy Strength
4 [FUT] Daybreak Coronet
3 [LRW] Battle Mastery
3 [IN] Armadillo Cloak

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 4 [WL] Abeyance
SB: 4 [PS] Orim's Chant

I cut Ancient Tomb down to two and I'm loving it. I draw it at all the right times and only when I need it. Remember how 3c Angel Stompy only ran two? It's sort of like that. I didn't want to cut the card all together, which was the right decision overall because the card can be busted in the deck at times. I upped the Taoist Hermit count to four as well, which coincides well with the Ancient Tombs, that are actually left in the deck. I cut the BoP and Llanowar Elves and decided to roll with Elvish Spirit Guide. The instant mana is sometimes better than waiting a turn with a mana elf, and it also accelerates a first turn Abeyance in the SB whenever I board it in versus combo. This latest list is better than my original draft, but only slightly. Let me know what you guys think of some of the card choices that I implemented within the deck.

MTG Guru
10-01-2008, 10:09 AM
Sorry for double posting, but I was recently looking at my "Lorwyn" cards to get list when Lorwyn was first spoiled (I make a list whenever a new set comes out), and I looked at my notes and realized that I noted that Mosswort Bridge might be good in Daybreak Hermits. Since my creatures can get pretty huge I think this could make for some significant discussion.

Maybe the changes could be implemented like:

-2 Ancient Tomb

+2 Mosswort Bridge

or...

-2 Horizon Canopy

+2 Mosswort Bridge

I'd most likely take out the Tombs for Bridges, since you guys apparently hate the card so much.

What do you guys think? Is this card worth testing or is snagging a critter/aura not relevent? Let me know what you guys think. It might actually be good in response to a Wrath of God.

dude 666
10-01-2008, 01:42 PM
How is it good against wrath of god? Activate in response to wrath? Then you'll just lose the card you hid.

Also, it's probably not a good idea, cause by the time you have 10 power on the board you're already winning.

jericohs@cottage
10-01-2008, 04:39 PM
I'd call the deck...

General Tao's Chicken..hehe

Daybreak Coronet and Battle Mastery chained into Taoist Hermit is brilliant buddy, keep it up. I hear people knocking it but they have no clue... and Jitte isn't good at all in this deck. Jitte is only good with shadow.

I prefer this over stompy!

PS. I like Peter Rotten's idea of Wild Mongrel - to discard hand - and Replenish to win game turn 3 or 4. Depending if you play birds or elves. It's good because there's a surprise element to getting a bunch of aura's on your creature at once and it's bad versus controll. Replenish is a must counter for any deck.

Willoe
10-01-2008, 05:20 PM
Jitte is only good with shadow.

Elaborate please, I'd like to know why nonshadow creatures equipped with Jitte keep chumpin' down my life total.

MTG Guru
10-01-2008, 06:29 PM
@Willoe - I think he just means that it's a bit more "dangerous" on a shadow creature on your opponent's part.

@Jericho - Thanks for taking interest in the deck. I also agree that playing Daybreak Coronet and Jitte in the same deck is counterintiutive, but some people here seem to disagree with us. :wink:

jericohs@cottage
10-02-2008, 01:21 PM
There's a few reasons why i think Jitte is not suited for this deck.

1st: This is a deck based around STOMPY builds. Deal dmg through the red zone quickly. Jitte takes a cc of 4 to get online. IMO, stompy builds neither have the mana or time to get this win more card activated.

2nd: Jitte shines only in builds that have evasive creatures. Taoist has shroud not evasion. Evasion is flying, shadow, can't be blocked by less than two creatures, etc.

And Taoist is a prime example of a great metagame choice at the moment. The only cards that can deal with Taoist is Pernicious Deed, Damnation and Wrath of God. And guess what guys, the Taoist kills on turn 4. That means if your on the draw your opponent will never have the chance to play those spells.

Sanguine Voyeur
10-02-2008, 03:22 PM
And Taoist is a prime example of a great metagame choice at the moment. The only cards that can deal with Taoist is Pernicious Deed, Damnation and Wrath of God. And guess what guys, the Taoist kills on turn 4. That means if your on the draw your opponent will never have the chance to play those spells.Taoist kills on turn four? That's pretty impressive considering it's only a 2/2. Well, I guess that's what happens in a format with so few creatures as Legacy, there's nothing around to block it, no edicts, no counter spells, and almost no decks play sweepers. There are also no creatures that are just plain better then it. Something would have to be twice as big for one less mana to be better then that.

jericohs@cottage
10-02-2008, 03:38 PM
Taoist kills on turn four? That's pretty impressive considering it's only a 2/2. Well, I guess that's what happens in a format with so few creatures as Legacy, there's nothing around to block it, no edicts, no counter spells, and almost no decks play sweepers. There are also no creatures that are just plain better then it. Something would have to be twice as big for one less mana to be better then that.

Sarcastic!? Have you read Taoist? Did you examine the decklist? Ur a kind and caring soul.

I can only suppose that was what you wanted to say, right? I took the liberty of correcting it for you. Don't worry, I won't ask for payment for my services. In fact, I'll even give you a present! A shiny new Warning for Flaming. Enjoy!

- Nihil Credo

We now return you to your regular rambling...

Taoist has SHROUD BUT ONLY FOR YOUR OPP> AWESOME. Which means if you have any wits at all, that you can target him with all the bomb enchants > battle mastery, daybreak corronet, armadillo cloak, rancor, and less so...holy stregth which i don't like as much. I would replace with:

4 x Moldervine Cloak

If your implying that this deck folds to board sweepers, counterspells and goyf your sadly mistaken. Have you ever seen a stompy build run goofy aka tarmogoyf? He's good and all but STOMPY plays evasive creatures no big dumb ones.

Mirrislegend
10-03-2008, 12:28 PM
Because it hilights a major weakness of the deck. The main weakness that everyone has been harping on is the very high number of cards that are passive cards. Sure you're auras are awesome buffs, but what happens if your opponent keeps your creatures off the board? S_V pointed out that even your non-passive cards (your creatures) are sub-par. What if someone lets your creatures resolve and keeps all your enchantments off the board? Your creatures will not get the job done on their own, and you need to acknowledge that and take it into account before you scream about being a victim.

Forbiddian
10-03-2008, 12:46 PM
Nihil Credo ftw.

This might have a strong matchup against a number of decks. All of the deck's effectiveness is the surprise factor when playing it. If a deck is relying on STP and expecting only to face a 4/5 Goyf or two, they'll be surprised that this brings the creature beats in extremely fast. Consider Burn.dec. It's strictly worse than Goyfsligh or RG beats in goldfishing, but at the same time it wins games. Why? Because nobody prepares for burn. I think it's worse than RG Beats.

Not that it's really that good of a deck -- more like a combo deck that wins on turn 4-5, just people are massively unprepared for it. Nobody will sideboard in anything, and it'll have the benefit of (hopefully) a strong metagame sideboard.

Anyway, because of that, it doesn't really care if its opponent drops a Goyf 4/5. Even though it's horrible card disadvantage to take an enchantment or two or three to get over goyf, it's all part of this deck's gameplan. Going 3:1 isn't too bad of a deal if your opponent only has 5 or 6 relevant answers in his entire deck.

Of course, if your opponent happens to have Edict or Innocent Blood, you're pretty fubar.

jericohs@cottage
10-03-2008, 12:54 PM
Nihil Credo ftw.

This might have a strong matchup against a number of decks. Part of the deck's effectiveness is the surprise factor when playing it. If a deck is relying on STP and expecting only to face a 4/5 Goyf or two, they'll be surprised that this brings the creature beats in extremely fast. Consider Burn.dec. It's strictly worse than Goyfsligh or RG beats in goldfishing, but at the same time it wins games. Why? Because nobody prepares for burn. I think it's worse than RG Beats.

Not that it's really that good of a deck -- more like a combo deck that wins on turn 4-5, just people are massively unprepared for it. Nobody will sideboard in anything, and it'll have the benefit of (hopefully) a strong metagame sideboard.

Exactly, how many times have you faced a stompy build at FNM, PT, GP or what not?
How many times have you taken 10-15 dmg as a surprise because you didn't expect rancor, berserk or any other aura/enchant?

Forbiddian
10-03-2008, 12:58 PM
Exactly, how many times have you faced a stompy build at FNM, PT, GP or what not?

17. Exactly.

jericohs@cottage
10-03-2008, 01:08 PM
I'll highlight this build as an example that putting your eggs in one basket can sometimes pay off. I do like Berserk Stompy but that's entirely a diff subject and format...

9 Land Stompy

Mana:
9 Forest
4 Land Grant
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

Creatures:
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Skyshroud Elite
4 Vine Dryad
4 River Boa
4 Jungle Lion
4 Rogue Elephant
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
3 Ghazban Ogre

Pump:
4 Bounty Of The Hunt
4 Giant Growth
4 Rancor

Sideboard:
4 Hidden Gibbons
4 Rushwood Legate
3 Winter Orb
2 Naturalize
2 Tranquil Domain


Lists such as this have won myriads of tourney's on the back of unpreparred mages... Just look at some of these peoples comments:

Slag07-26-2006, 02:20 PM

I'll attest to the speed and resiliance of this deck due to the beating it gave me and my RGSA deck first round at the duel. It played more threats than my FTK could deal with, and effectively countered my pyroclasm with bounty of the hunt. At first I was a little miffed that stompy (of all things) had just beaten me, but the deck was properly metagamed and Mr. Nipples played it well.

AnwarA10107-26-2006, 02:45 PM

I'm glad someone posted this deck. Congrats on the 11th place finish. I've asked Mad Zur about this and I'm wondering if you guys have considered Pithing Needle for the board. It seems like it would be huge against Goblins hitting either Aether Vial or Gempalm Incinerator. In my experience with the deck the matchup can be very close and Needle might make the difference. It might even help against Survival though it will probably just slow you down in that matchup.

MTG Guru
10-03-2008, 01:27 PM
I'm not going to throw myself into the battlefield and discuss everything that you guys have been talking about. I do however want to get a discussion going about Mosswort Bridge. Usually if I'm able to snag a Battle Mastery with it, I can end the game a turn sooner. This is really intriguing to me. Mosswort Bridge can turn into a pseudo Berserk when you think about it. So do you guys think it's worth it? Or is Wasteland too prevalent in this format?

jericohs@cottage
10-03-2008, 02:31 PM
Well ...

If you think about it, the question behind whether or not wasteland is prevalent in Legacy is moot. UGx Threshold can run upwards 2-4. And I think this is fairly comon for all other Tier 1 decks. Ie Landstill, Loam variants, Legacy Tron variants, GOBO's with rishidan ports and wasteland.

Your bound to see wasteland in almost every deck now a days. The question is who abuses wasteland?

Well the only real abuseable engines in Tier 1 is Loam/Wasteland and Crucible/Wasteland. So expect Loam to hit that strategy hard and to a lesser exten Legacy Tron (Uw with Crucible and Ug with Loam)

I think that if someone was going to use that strategy against you they would likely target your temple garden or ancient tomb. The question is, how many times has your mosswort been subject to LD?

Mordenkaynen
11-30-2008, 09:25 AM
Hmm.. I've searched the thread and haven't found a word about supression field. Seems strange as it make SDT-balance much worse, slows down deed and EE and is strong disruptive element (fetches, manlands, equipment, whatsoever).
(Does anyone work at this now?)
Also vs enormous creatures the deck can pack worship. At least it has silana for rogue attack and can wait until drawing stp.