Mokaod
09-03-2008, 03:54 PM
Note of the author: Please disregard my grammar and spelling mistakes. Dutch is my native language, can't help it. If one of you moderators feel it's in the wrong place here please let me know (or move ofcourse). This is my first one so I could be at the wrong place. The post also contains a little about myself since noone knows me yet. Always nice to know who you're talking to right? here we go.
Hello readers,
I know there is another Rogue thread running, but I posted a new thread on this deck to focus the discussion on the BU control/aggro variety of the deck. The other thread also talks about other color splashes and mono B. I don't want to go there, so I created a new thread to keep the discussion pure.
I think I can call myself a seazoned magic player now (10+ years on-and-off playing in my baggage) but have always been playing casual with an everchanging metagame, without the real archetype decks. Restrictions and Bans don't realy apply on my metagame, and the power 9 are played. Not realy a good metagame to test t1.5 tournament decks in I guess but it sure makes you know your deck and it's weaknesses...
Did a couple of sanctioned matches in the late 19xx's (with classic RU Djinn Doppelganger Shivan and so on), but cards weren't as easily available to me back then as they are now (internet ftw) so my decks sucked and I lost all matches (ehh, "four of", what?). As a result I lost all interest in Tournament play and after a while Magic got subbed by PC-gaming. But not so long ago I discovered MWS and started to play magic intensively again, re-sparking my interest in playing magic. I started to buy boosters again. On my search for better decks (too many cards in MWS and cards equal options. Hence, too many options argh!) I found this site and started reading. T1.5 looks best for me to play in, since it doesn't change that much as T2 and contains those "ahh! I know that card without reading! yay!"-cards which prevents people from calling me n00b ("player lost") since I don't play as fast as people who didn't stop playing as long as i did.
Not many people in my surroundings want to play or are playing tournament so their decks aren't what you would meet in a tournament I guess. Largely fast weeniedecks (White Knights, Wither, Wizards, Elf Aggro, stompiedecks, tree's) and slow aggro and combodecks (Mono Green monsterbeat, sleight of mind). The only "real" decks I play against are owned by 2-3 individuals of the about 10 I play against. RB Goblin, Threshold, U Proteus/Colo, B discard, RG Aggro/Goyf are a couple of those "real" decks. They have been thoroughly tested and streamlined, so those are actualy worthy adversaries.
Together with a friend of mine I want to start showing myself on sanctioned tournaments in the Netherlands and Belgium. So, ofcourse I need a tournament ready deck. That brought me to attempt BU Rogue, and eventually because of the problems i have with it, post this thread.
I've always loved playing U Control. It was an easy choice to go that way again. That brought me to attempt BU Rogue, and eventually because of the problems i have with it, post this thread. Why change to something unknown for a first tournament deck right? I saw the prowl mechanic at work in a deck from a friend and liked it alot. Added effects at reduced costs whoopee! Earwig, hey, that's a better Juggy! I was already working on the deck when my friend suggested to add the T1.5 U control/cantrip shell he runs in his Proteus deck because the tribal shell I was using didn't seem to function well enough. Sounded good so I went on building the deck hoping it would run smoother and faster and beat all opposition to death before my tombstone gets carved.
Although it runs quite fast and smooth, I find myself in defence most of the time when I play against established decks like the ones mentioned above. I too often find myself on the wrong side of the card advantage starting early mid-game. That shouldn't be the case with Aggro/Control so something has to be wrong in my setup.
I hope that with help and knowledge from you guys I can expose the weakness in the deck and implement changes so the odds change in my favor (or tell me it sucks and will never work so I can build something else out of my counter/cantrip shell).
Let me present to you my current decklist. This is the most powerful build we've gotten out of it untill now:
==Mainboard==
Manabase (20):
4x Secluded Glen
4x Underground River
5x Island
7x Swamp
Creatures (20):
4x Prickly Boggart
4x Earwig Squad
4x Stinkdrinker Bandit
4x Oona's Blackguard
4x Latchkey Faerie
Spells (20):
3x Diabolic Edict
3x Thoughtseize
2x Mana Leak
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
==Sideboard==
4x Pithing Needle
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Stifle
2x Notorious Throng
1x Thoughtseize
What I try to do is take control early and get enough on the table to break a combo by discard/removal, or swarm. Prickly is my primary enabler, he gets my prowl going on turn 2 when he gets the chance. I use brainstorm to plan ahead or preserve good cards in defence of discard. I tend to prowl the earwig before a latchkey if possible, to break combo's or remove creature hate and direct damage. It is also very nice to be able to get to see the deck of your enemy and plan it's destruction. I try to win by beating my opponent to death.
Manabase isn't what it should be, I know. Missing fetchlands, Muta's and Sea's, which is as far as I can see the best base I could wish for in this deck. Problem for me is that the best mana base costs more than the rest of the deck. I hope the price of the muta will drop when it is removed from T2...
Ran Banneret's for a while but took em out since they seemed to be the weakest slot in the deck. Almost never the reduced cost made a difference. I was able to enable prowl with him a few times due to haste, but the card didn't seem to be an advantage on every play. Mana leaks and Diabolic Edict's went in because they have more advantages over the Banneret obviously. Currently thinking about adding Oona's Prowler, but unsure what to take out in favor of that card. Also thinking about an alternative for diabolic, since there probably are better cards to fill that slot with, able to do more than remove one creature chosen by my adversary. And it's the best removal i know for indestructible 11/11 giants..
In the sideboard Notorious Throng is by far the weakest slot. I realised a few days ago the card isn't a SB card at all. They should be Main Boarded or taken out. It's not a card I would SB in for play 2/3 in all the situations I can think of and mainboard doesn't have slots free so I can probably best take it out completely and sub it with a better choice (2 more mana leak? Ponder?). It does look like a win more card but it saved me a couple of times which makes me reluctant to free up the slot (just-in-case-card). With one or two Blackguards in play it is definately an oddschanger.
As mentioned above I playtested it against some archetype decks. Results were for me something to worry about. Please note I haven't been keeping testingnotes (/slap <self>) so the results are kind of an estimate. I will try to provide better notes if you can't work with the info I have now.
RG Aggro/Goyf:
This must be the best matchup for the deck. It's easy to take control over the game and keep control. It's also fairly easy to get prowl going due to Fear/Flyers which enables me to take out his threats all together before cast (earwig). Aggro/Goyf also seldomly plays more than one or two big threats so Diabolic works like a charm. I won more than I lost. The estimate is about 60-40. My countershell also feels efficient enough to counter the key cards this deck needs to beat hard. Didn't test much against this deck because I didn't meet many of these on MWS.
RB Goblin (Vial):
Although I won some times I find myself outclassed here due to no quick answers to an inevitable swarm and an abundance of direct damage. As soon as it resolved a turn one Vial or Lackey I found myself immediately in scooping position. Think I won about 10-15% of the games. SB doesn't realy offer any cards which can handle the goblins. I could side Stifle and Needle to stop some of the goblin's abilities, but since he plays about 26 goblin's maindeck all with abilities and siding the 2 means less beaters/blockers and/or less counter/cantrip. Doesn't seem to be the worst matchup despite of this. With a lucky draw I win. But having to depend on a lucky draw has faillure written all over it.
mono U Proteus/Colo:
Odds are a little bit better here because of earwigsquad and control. Pulling his counters to "seems to be important" cards I was able to resolve one a couple of times taking out his beaters or prot staff and thus crippling his click combo. Game 2 and 3 take your chance up due to Stifle and Pithing Needle. Still the winpercentage stays below 50%.
Mono B discard:
While I was able to save some good cards by brainstorming them out of my hand, I found myself struggling to deal with his many discard spells which made me completely unable to stop his force of small beaters. I just wasn't able to keep up. It has proven to be the worst matchup untill now.
To conclude my OP, I think something has to be done about the ability of the deck to handle swarms and discard. I know too less cards to be able to answer that question the best way it can be answered.
I would like this deck to have at least a reasonable chance in ranking fair in tournaments. I suspect the deck can be infact be quite hard to win from, if it gets enough loving. I hope you guys can help me with making this a winning deck. Thanks in advance for your effort guys!
Greetzz Mokaod
Mestreech Massive! ;)
PS: sorry for the lengthy post, I hope at least a few get through it hehe.
Hello readers,
I know there is another Rogue thread running, but I posted a new thread on this deck to focus the discussion on the BU control/aggro variety of the deck. The other thread also talks about other color splashes and mono B. I don't want to go there, so I created a new thread to keep the discussion pure.
I think I can call myself a seazoned magic player now (10+ years on-and-off playing in my baggage) but have always been playing casual with an everchanging metagame, without the real archetype decks. Restrictions and Bans don't realy apply on my metagame, and the power 9 are played. Not realy a good metagame to test t1.5 tournament decks in I guess but it sure makes you know your deck and it's weaknesses...
Did a couple of sanctioned matches in the late 19xx's (with classic RU Djinn Doppelganger Shivan and so on), but cards weren't as easily available to me back then as they are now (internet ftw) so my decks sucked and I lost all matches (ehh, "four of", what?). As a result I lost all interest in Tournament play and after a while Magic got subbed by PC-gaming. But not so long ago I discovered MWS and started to play magic intensively again, re-sparking my interest in playing magic. I started to buy boosters again. On my search for better decks (too many cards in MWS and cards equal options. Hence, too many options argh!) I found this site and started reading. T1.5 looks best for me to play in, since it doesn't change that much as T2 and contains those "ahh! I know that card without reading! yay!"-cards which prevents people from calling me n00b ("player lost") since I don't play as fast as people who didn't stop playing as long as i did.
Not many people in my surroundings want to play or are playing tournament so their decks aren't what you would meet in a tournament I guess. Largely fast weeniedecks (White Knights, Wither, Wizards, Elf Aggro, stompiedecks, tree's) and slow aggro and combodecks (Mono Green monsterbeat, sleight of mind). The only "real" decks I play against are owned by 2-3 individuals of the about 10 I play against. RB Goblin, Threshold, U Proteus/Colo, B discard, RG Aggro/Goyf are a couple of those "real" decks. They have been thoroughly tested and streamlined, so those are actualy worthy adversaries.
Together with a friend of mine I want to start showing myself on sanctioned tournaments in the Netherlands and Belgium. So, ofcourse I need a tournament ready deck. That brought me to attempt BU Rogue, and eventually because of the problems i have with it, post this thread.
I've always loved playing U Control. It was an easy choice to go that way again. That brought me to attempt BU Rogue, and eventually because of the problems i have with it, post this thread. Why change to something unknown for a first tournament deck right? I saw the prowl mechanic at work in a deck from a friend and liked it alot. Added effects at reduced costs whoopee! Earwig, hey, that's a better Juggy! I was already working on the deck when my friend suggested to add the T1.5 U control/cantrip shell he runs in his Proteus deck because the tribal shell I was using didn't seem to function well enough. Sounded good so I went on building the deck hoping it would run smoother and faster and beat all opposition to death before my tombstone gets carved.
Although it runs quite fast and smooth, I find myself in defence most of the time when I play against established decks like the ones mentioned above. I too often find myself on the wrong side of the card advantage starting early mid-game. That shouldn't be the case with Aggro/Control so something has to be wrong in my setup.
I hope that with help and knowledge from you guys I can expose the weakness in the deck and implement changes so the odds change in my favor (or tell me it sucks and will never work so I can build something else out of my counter/cantrip shell).
Let me present to you my current decklist. This is the most powerful build we've gotten out of it untill now:
==Mainboard==
Manabase (20):
4x Secluded Glen
4x Underground River
5x Island
7x Swamp
Creatures (20):
4x Prickly Boggart
4x Earwig Squad
4x Stinkdrinker Bandit
4x Oona's Blackguard
4x Latchkey Faerie
Spells (20):
3x Diabolic Edict
3x Thoughtseize
2x Mana Leak
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
==Sideboard==
4x Pithing Needle
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Stifle
2x Notorious Throng
1x Thoughtseize
What I try to do is take control early and get enough on the table to break a combo by discard/removal, or swarm. Prickly is my primary enabler, he gets my prowl going on turn 2 when he gets the chance. I use brainstorm to plan ahead or preserve good cards in defence of discard. I tend to prowl the earwig before a latchkey if possible, to break combo's or remove creature hate and direct damage. It is also very nice to be able to get to see the deck of your enemy and plan it's destruction. I try to win by beating my opponent to death.
Manabase isn't what it should be, I know. Missing fetchlands, Muta's and Sea's, which is as far as I can see the best base I could wish for in this deck. Problem for me is that the best mana base costs more than the rest of the deck. I hope the price of the muta will drop when it is removed from T2...
Ran Banneret's for a while but took em out since they seemed to be the weakest slot in the deck. Almost never the reduced cost made a difference. I was able to enable prowl with him a few times due to haste, but the card didn't seem to be an advantage on every play. Mana leaks and Diabolic Edict's went in because they have more advantages over the Banneret obviously. Currently thinking about adding Oona's Prowler, but unsure what to take out in favor of that card. Also thinking about an alternative for diabolic, since there probably are better cards to fill that slot with, able to do more than remove one creature chosen by my adversary. And it's the best removal i know for indestructible 11/11 giants..
In the sideboard Notorious Throng is by far the weakest slot. I realised a few days ago the card isn't a SB card at all. They should be Main Boarded or taken out. It's not a card I would SB in for play 2/3 in all the situations I can think of and mainboard doesn't have slots free so I can probably best take it out completely and sub it with a better choice (2 more mana leak? Ponder?). It does look like a win more card but it saved me a couple of times which makes me reluctant to free up the slot (just-in-case-card). With one or two Blackguards in play it is definately an oddschanger.
As mentioned above I playtested it against some archetype decks. Results were for me something to worry about. Please note I haven't been keeping testingnotes (/slap <self>) so the results are kind of an estimate. I will try to provide better notes if you can't work with the info I have now.
RG Aggro/Goyf:
This must be the best matchup for the deck. It's easy to take control over the game and keep control. It's also fairly easy to get prowl going due to Fear/Flyers which enables me to take out his threats all together before cast (earwig). Aggro/Goyf also seldomly plays more than one or two big threats so Diabolic works like a charm. I won more than I lost. The estimate is about 60-40. My countershell also feels efficient enough to counter the key cards this deck needs to beat hard. Didn't test much against this deck because I didn't meet many of these on MWS.
RB Goblin (Vial):
Although I won some times I find myself outclassed here due to no quick answers to an inevitable swarm and an abundance of direct damage. As soon as it resolved a turn one Vial or Lackey I found myself immediately in scooping position. Think I won about 10-15% of the games. SB doesn't realy offer any cards which can handle the goblins. I could side Stifle and Needle to stop some of the goblin's abilities, but since he plays about 26 goblin's maindeck all with abilities and siding the 2 means less beaters/blockers and/or less counter/cantrip. Doesn't seem to be the worst matchup despite of this. With a lucky draw I win. But having to depend on a lucky draw has faillure written all over it.
mono U Proteus/Colo:
Odds are a little bit better here because of earwigsquad and control. Pulling his counters to "seems to be important" cards I was able to resolve one a couple of times taking out his beaters or prot staff and thus crippling his click combo. Game 2 and 3 take your chance up due to Stifle and Pithing Needle. Still the winpercentage stays below 50%.
Mono B discard:
While I was able to save some good cards by brainstorming them out of my hand, I found myself struggling to deal with his many discard spells which made me completely unable to stop his force of small beaters. I just wasn't able to keep up. It has proven to be the worst matchup untill now.
To conclude my OP, I think something has to be done about the ability of the deck to handle swarms and discard. I know too less cards to be able to answer that question the best way it can be answered.
I would like this deck to have at least a reasonable chance in ranking fair in tournaments. I suspect the deck can be infact be quite hard to win from, if it gets enough loving. I hope you guys can help me with making this a winning deck. Thanks in advance for your effort guys!
Greetzz Mokaod
Mestreech Massive! ;)
PS: sorry for the lengthy post, I hope at least a few get through it hehe.