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Di
10-20-2003, 11:37 PM
In the beginning of 2003(roughly January-February) I started playing the deck FEB. I piloted it to 6 strait tournament wins, but legends have to die. Eventually, people came to adapt, and it was hated out of the metagame. I then came to Mike(aka drg'), in need of some help to beat out the metagame using a Survival-based deck. We eventually sorted out the stronger points of the meta-game, and took advantage of them by finding their weaknesses. Now we have a Team Evolution monster, my baby, Angry Tradewind Survival:

//1cc
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Elvish Lyrist
1 Spore Frog (or Spike Weaver)
2 Quirion Ranger
3 Brainstorm
//2cc
4 Survival of the Fittest
2 Sylvan Library
4 Wall of Roots
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
2 Confound (or Mana Leak)
1 Gilded Drake
//3cc
2 Spike Feeder
1 Uktabi Orangutan
1 Goblin Sharpshooter (or Monk Idelist)
1 Squee, Goblin Miz0r
//4cc
4 Tradewind Rider
1 Masticore
1 Mystic Snake
1 Anger
//5cc
1 Seedborn Muse
1 Genesis
3 Force of Will (or Mana leak)
//Land
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
7 Forest

The Sideboard varies with your metagame.

I'd really like to get some sort of discussion started about this, as many people think the deck just kind of died. Granted, I haven't heard of anyone winning tournaments with it lately, and I know I haven't lately, but I still feel it's a top contender in today's metagame. It puts up a fight with the best of decks, and I think it's the strongest deck against WelderMud, it just gives it fits. Feedback and Comments are encouraged.

Thank you.


Edit: Updated list, 10/27/03.



Edited By Diablos on 1067307618

Mr. Anderson
10-21-2003, 03:43 PM
I was wondering how well the confound tech is working out for you. I think mana leaks or forces, which ever you prefer, would be better. Counfound, while it is cantript, wont stop like 2nd turn humility, or anything along thoes lines. I dont think that it would be that great just because ats mainly loses to board sweepers, not specific creature kill stuff. Also, have you tried running kravokian horror instead of Sharp Shooter. I think that it would be better as it preforms survival tricks and it can ping creatures bigger than one toughness. Just thoughts.

Di
10-21-2003, 04:03 PM
I was wondering how well the confound tech is working out for you. I think mana leaks or forces, which ever you prefer, would be better. Counfound, while it is cantript, wont stop like 2nd turn humility, or anything aalong thoes lines. I dont think that it would be that great just because ats mainly loses to board sweepers, not specific creature kill stuff. Also, have you tried running kravokian horror instead of Sharp Shooter. i think that it would be better as it preforms survival tricks and it can ping creatures bigger than one toughness. Just thoughts.
Confound is one of the most amazing things I've ever used. It looks janky, but ask anyone who's watched me use it. It stops Smother, Fire/ice, Swords to Plowshares, burn, and other nasty elements that kill my creatures, which is really the deck's main weakness.

I could run Krovikan Horror, but it's more expensive to cast, I'd have to splash another color, and it has Poor Synergy with Tradewind Rider. Goblin Sharpshooter just works wonders though.

Mr. Anderson
10-22-2003, 12:16 AM
I was wondering if a black splash could be added to ATS. I think that duress is very powerfull and could nab annoying cards, ex. swords, fire/ice, bolts, etc. also with a black splash you gain Mesmeric Feind, which can be used in cute tricks to remove cards from the game. Grave hate also comes with black in the for of either carion beteles, or withered wretch. Both could be interesting as they would help aginst some annoying cards that tend to hep you opponent get ahead of you, if possible. Grave hate basically nabs lots of combos, aks in control, deep anyalsis' which can be game breaking, they also clean out togs graveyard which can easily take away 5 or 6 points on a tog, also would help in the mirrior. It just seems to me that when you couple the grave hate possibilites with duress and feind, black might be worth splashing.
Also on a side note, how have forces been working out for you. I know there was a heated disscusion a while ago on them, and wonder if any new views have come about in testing for after mirroden rotates in. I think they might be worth it as mirroden will make the environment quicker than it previously was, and adds a strong late game to many decks that didnt have one before. Just thoughts.

Di
10-22-2003, 07:41 AM
I like the Black splash, I've tried it out, and it was good. But realize my decklist is mainly aimed at the Syracuse metagame. And if you've played in Syracuse, then you'd understand the need for Back to Basic sin the sideboard. Plus, BtB hoses control(let's talk to TeenieBopper on that :) ). The only slots I'd ever use though were Duress and Withered Wretch, and the maindeck is very tight as is, but if I end up going to a black splash, Wretch would be a sideboard option.

Forces have been everything I wanted them to be. They have done so much more than Mana Leaks for me. In the AndyStok tournament a couple weeks ago, Force saved me around 5 games game, something Mana Leak couldn't have done.



Edited By Diablos on 1066819341

Mr. Anderson
10-24-2003, 11:47 PM
I have played in the syracuse meta and it is freaky. I even had you bust out the tech of compost on me. I agree that Back to Basics is a hoser. Have there been any changes to the sb. I was thinking that if mud started to work up a sb welder could be techy. Also, have you ever tried to play meddling mage. It could be another thing to stop removal, as you could name something like fire/ice and just win take off with one less thing to worry about.

On a different note have you ever played aginst Trenches with ats. I just have played a few games and found that it really blows. Is this game supposed to be an auto loss or did I just not play the deck right.

Di
10-25-2003, 12:45 AM
I have played in the syracuse meta and it is freaky. I even had you bust out the tech of compost on me. I agree that Back to Basics is a hoser. Have there been any changes to the sb. I was thinking that if mud started to work up a sb welder could be techy. Also, have you ever tried to play meddling mage. It could be another thing to stop removal, as you could name something like fire/ice and just win take off with one less thing to worry about.
I could use Welder as some sb tech, that's interesting. However, wMud has NEVER been a problem for me playing this deck. there is just too much acceleration comapred to other decks to stop Tangle Wire, Sphere is Resistance, and Smokestack, and Quirion Ranger makes it even worse for the wMud player. Also, Tradewind Rider + Uktabi Orangutan ends their day shortly. Goblin Sharpshooter and Masticore are also fun for this matchup, because they knock off Welder and Metalworker on the sight.

Compost, hm? I think I may have remember playing you, was it a Tuesday night? I remember going undefeated in that tournament, and I didn't even win it for some odd reason.

If you're(or anyone else for that matter) wondering, here's my current sideboard:

3 Chill
3 Choke
2 Back to Basics
2 Naturalize
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Stifle
1 Cartographer

-Chill for obvious reasons. Sligh can actually be a bit tough if I can't keep my acceleration on the table. This atleast helps me buy time.

-Choke. Nuff said, it hoses any deck I don't feel like trying to have a counter-war with.

-Back to Basics. Read above. It's also a meta-game hoser.

-Naturalize is one of my favorite sideboard slots. For some reason, other lists don't use it, and I wonder how those players beat Humility.

-Tormod's Crypt, yeah, I don't want too tough of a time against Ninj4 Strike. So, I board in like 8 cards.

-Stifle stops Keg and Deed, and it's brutal against control with a turn 1 Fetchland.

-Cartographer gives back my wasted Taiga, and can be great with Tradewind and fetchlands to quickly go through my deck and rip out all the lands.

Meddling Mage isn't that bad of an idea, but there isn't really room for it. Plus, in the decks using Fire/Ice, they could just StP/Smother the Mage, then throw down the F/I.


On a different note have you ever played aginst Trenches with ats. I just have played a few games and found that it really blows. Is this game supposed to be an auto loss or did I just not play the deck right.

Lol @ Trenches. I competely smash Trenches. It doesn't look like a good matchup, but I've never actually lost to it. For further information, talk to TeenieBopper, who, despite putting up a good effort, got to personally witness why I am known as a Savage Miz0r.

Lord McCaffrey
10-25-2003, 01:15 AM
I think of Meddling Mage being more used as a way to say no to Deed than anything else, not just random removal. Some cards are just really a pain in the ass for ATS, and Meddlign Mage is a way to not have to play around them. Welder would smote MUD comically, but ATS has an excellent MUD match already, so that'd be kind of a moot point. MUD just can't deal with a deck that drops as many permanents as ATS does as fast as it does.

By the way, being the Trenches player in those test games, I can say it really was a peachy match. A smattering of early removal and some key counters just to slow him down, followed up by a Scepter with a locking instant, like STP, Fire/Ice, or, on a real nasty day, Chant. I kept you at bay fairly easily last time i played vs. you with control, and that was pretty mediocre Ur. I think it would be a little uglier with Trenches.



Edited By Lord McCaffrey on 1067055388

Di
10-25-2003, 02:50 PM
The thing is, Meddling Mage would mean removing a slot from the maindeck(which is already extremely tight, I doubt there's anything I'd even consider to throw), and we have Stifle for Deed, and we have Confound for all the other bullshit I see.

You look at Trenches and think, "Damn, that's going to be tough to beat for ATS." But, look at my sideboard. Add in 5 sideboard slots, and now the opponent has 5 more cards they have to counter. Remember, I also have 5 counter of my own, and I'm around 40x faster than the Trenches player. I'll admit game 1 is often a struggle for me, but after sideboarding, the opponent just can't handle it. I also like to board in Stifle as well, due to their high fetchland count, as it will slow them down a good amount, and it also shuts out their win condition in Decree of Justice.

Mr. Anderson
10-26-2003, 04:04 PM
Yeah it was a tuesday. Have you considered upping the count of naturalizes sb. It seems like it could be a good idea with mirroden and everything. I mean, Scepters with swords just makes you scoop. I seems like the games where you would want them, 2 just isnt enough. Just Thoughts.

Di
10-26-2003, 07:36 PM
More Naturalizes in the board could go to consideration. That, or additional Uktabi Orangutan/Elvish Lyrist, etc. I'm able to tutor(Survival) for the removal that I want, and can bounce Uktabi with Tradewind every turn, or Genesis back Elvish Lyrist, so it's not that big of a problem yet. If I start getting smashed by Isochron and such, I'll consider it. But then again, in the decks that will feature it, I already have sideboard in Back to Basics and Choke, so they opponent won't do it as much as they want.

I can possibly fiddle around with the 3rd Choke slot, or possibly the Cartographer slot.

Mr. Anderson
10-26-2003, 11:27 PM
I had gone through testing with chokes and found 2 to be a good number. I dont know if it was vicious top decks or just a good number but i always had one when when I wanted it and it usually hit the board. This was aginst hulk and I was usually able to drop a choke while they were almost tapped out by leading with a rider or something along thoes lines. I think that a choke could be dropped out of the board to include either an orangutan or another Naturalize. Either way it goes I think that more artifact hate will be needed as scepter is found to be a freaking house. Just Thoughts.

Di
10-27-2003, 03:30 PM
I actually added the 3rd Choke because of Mirrodin. With Chalice and Scepter and whatnot, additional land-screw to sure to wreck an opponent's Isochron and such, since they actually tap out on their turn to cast it, leaving me open to either throw it down while they are tapped out, or bait out a bomb if it's a bit later in the game(roughly 4th-5th turn) and drop Choke after the bomb(Survival, another Choke, etc) and just have them left tapped out for good.

It also depends on the metagame. Granted, I haven't played in like 3 months, but I'm pretty sure I can imagine what it is currently. Good amount of control, some aggro, little combo. Those control decks are what hurts me, because the deck destory's most everything else. That's the main reason why I have 5 slots dedicated in my sideboard to stop that.



Edited By Diablos on 1067305655

Mr. Anderson
10-27-2003, 09:19 PM
I was wondering what you would think of dropping 2 spike feeders out of the main and bringing in 2 naturalize. This way you would have a way other than uktabi to kill annoying scepters and if they put a scepter with chant on it, you would have a way a dealing with it other than good game. Also you could break humility and such. This is all very dependant on what the meta is of course, but i have noticed sligh steadily dropping out of existance. Just Thoughts.

Di
10-27-2003, 10:27 PM
..Add another Uktabi..yeah. And if I play an artifact-less deck? Then I'm stuck with two rather dead cards, only used for Survival, because God knows this deck doesn't attack for the life of me. Spike Feeder on the other hand, can gain life, which is great against Aggro decks. It can also move counters too save creatures(for instance, Rofellos vs. Fire/Ice).

However, with Sligh(and other aggro for that matter) decreasing in the metagame, I think it'd be safe to go down to only two Spike Feeder. Not really much of anything I want though. I could use Monk Idealist, but I already smash the decks I'd put it in against, and I'd have to alter my already tight manabase. The real slot I'm testing, and will most likely go to is Confound #2. Confound has proven itself to be a true life-saver for me, because it's won me like 3 games on it's own. I ran a configuration of 2 Confound 2 Force of Will in Albany, due to the amount of Aggro I noticed beforehand, but I went back because Syracuse is populated with more control. However, with the rising popularity of Fire/Ice, and the increased use in Swords to Plowshares, I feel it's safe to add the 2nd Confound back to the maindeck.

Eclipt1c
10-28-2003, 07:17 PM
Diablos, I was wondering if you had considered Wirewood Guardian. I run him in mine instead of forest #7 and he's never dead in your hand and makes for a 1-2 turn kill instead of 4-5 with masticore alone.

100-1066605550
10-28-2003, 09:14 PM
I'm actualy considering cutting 2 Spike Feeders and adding Idealist / Sharpshooter (whatever you don't have main) and the Land Cycling guy there.

Let me know what you think. This is post new set rotate though.

Mr.T
10-28-2003, 10:57 PM
Nick and I were able to find room for Idealist and Sharpshooter main. We cut like a Sylvan or something, can't quite remember its been a while.

Di
10-28-2003, 11:18 PM
I've had Sharpshooter main for like, the last 5 months. Where has everyone been? Idealist could find room for Spike feeder #3, but I won't play it until I have an asian one, and a BB Savannah(hehe, I'm so pimp).

@Eclipt1c

I considered the Cycling dude, but never got around to try it. I guess I favor the actual fetchlands over him because they are free. I'm not a big fan of paying mana to get land in here.

Mr.T
10-29-2003, 12:21 AM
I know you had Sharpshooter main, you did it then I followed, and we were the only ones main decking it at that time as far as I remember.

Di
10-29-2003, 06:12 PM
Since this is an actual discussion on ATS, and not the Ninj4's ATS, I'm really wondering what you guy's decklists look like. I'd really like to expand the deck further, and I want to hear about some different choices you all are making, and why. Some input please.

Lord McCaffrey
10-29-2003, 07:41 PM
I think one of the main reasons for the Guardian is to allow you to have a way, essentially,to Survival for Taiga. As Tropical Island is usually the more important duel to get out first, sometimes you may have a Survival and need haste, but not have the Taiga. Other than that he's worse than land.

As Shooter is really only best vs Sligh and other ATS (Trenches-derf), I think that you'd be better off with him board and Idealist main, at least in the Syracuse meta. On the other hand, if the only other thing your considering for the slot is the Feeders, your probably better off with Shooter. I'd say a more versatile card than both would be best.



Edited By Lord McCaffrey on 1067470970

Di
10-29-2003, 07:47 PM
Sharpshooter is the main reason I beat aggro actually. Not only Sligh and the mirror-match, but stuff like Fish, Suicide(tapped out Shade, Hypppie if I have Quirion, etc), Goblins, as well as random aggro that can actually suprise you and bash your face like Elves or something.

I really don't think Wirewood Guardian is needed. I mean, I wouldn't need the Taiga until turn 3, and by that time, I can already go through my deck with Sylvan and Brainstorm to find a fetchland or something, that's in addition to drawing itself or a fetchland withing the 1st 3 turns, which the deck almost always does.

Lord McCaffrey
10-29-2003, 08:06 PM
Sharpshooter vs. Elves=Crunch

Yeah, he can get pretty retarded. Only real reason not to run him MD is that he's one of those creatures thats Jesus on a stick when you need him and useful only to heat your home when you don't, but thats what Survival and Brainstorm are for.

Ifflejink
10-29-2003, 08:35 PM
In my experience, Wirwood Guardian has been fairly useful. It's a Taiga that you can Survival for, plus it's a beatstick. BTW, Sharpshooter is game against aggro.

Di
10-29-2003, 08:41 PM
The problem is though, Guardian is slow. By the time I forestcycle it(which will be 3rd-4th turn), I'm most likely going to already have stuff I need to win the game(3rd turn Rofellos, 4th turn brokenness.)

There's almost no way I'd have Sharpshooter leave the maindeck. He's actually one of the top creatures I survival for when playing. Normally, I'll either play against Aggro or Control, there's very little combo around here. That means that the card itself destroys almost half of the metagame. I think some people will agree with me that it's some good to kill 50% of the field with only 1 creature.

Eclipt1c
10-29-2003, 11:05 PM
I really don't think Sharpshooter is essential for the deck, it's a metagame call, seeing as how masticore can do it if needed. Although I'd never take it out of my deck cause my meta is like 70% Sligh

Di
10-29-2003, 11:27 PM
I'd only take Sharpshooter out of the main if there was a high concentration of control in the metagame. And if there is only a tiny amount of aggro, then I don't want to play in the metagame, because it isn't balanced. A healthy metagame requires a strong concentration of both departments, aggro and control(I kinda leave combo out of here because there really isn't much of it in 1.5, but it helps too).

I really search for Sharpshooter more than I do Masticore. Masticore I'll grab if i have hasty Rofellos supported by Quirion Ranger, or if I go to beatdown mode. Sharshooter, I just poop him out around turn 3-4, and decimate the opponent's army. Easy as pie. It saves a lot of mana for me to use Mystic Snake, or other activations of survival.

Mr.T
10-29-2003, 11:51 PM
Here is my list that I had last Tested with about two weeks ago at my house.

// 1cc
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Elvish Lyrist
1 Spore Frog
2 Quirion Ranger
3 Brainstorm
// 2cc
4 Survival of the Fittest
2 Sylvan Library
4 Wall of Roots
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
4 Mana Leak
1 Gilded Drake
// 3cc
2 Spike Feeder
1 Uktabi Orangutan
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Monk Idealist
// 4cc
4 Tradewind Rider
1 Masticore
1 Mystic Snake
1 Anger
// 5cc
1 Seedborn Muse
1 Genesis

//Land
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
7 Forest

TVH
10-29-2003, 11:57 PM
Hey this is my first post, i stopped being active on TMD (where my handle was TheVerbalHologram) due to more important issues, but i have a bit more time nowadays.

I haven't played in a tournament in a month or so, but everytime I've played ATS in a tourney I've won it, I've also put up 1st and 2nd places playing with FEB, so i do consider myself an experienced survival player.

I might post a list when I have more time, but I just wanted to say that I've been playing a black splash ATS ("plan b") that runs the set of 4 duress and 4 therapy and I stand behind it, I feel playing the disruption over countermagic gives the deck a new, sharper edge. I've talked to diablos a lot about the deck and can vouch for confound in the blue heavy version.

I know the disruption doesnt stop TD'ed deeds, humilities etc, but the objective is to rip their hand and abuse survival before they know what hit them, so you basically go off and are ready to react when they recover.

I understand playing 4 bayous in addition to the other duals might not be a hot idea in the syracuse meta, but in mine (portland, oregon) it's solid.

I'd be happy to answer any questions about my version, just lmk

peace

Di
10-30-2003, 09:54 AM
hey this is my first post, i stopped being active on TMD (where my handle was TheVerbalHologram) due to more important issues, but i have a bit more time nowadays

i haven't played in a tournament in a month or so, but everytime i've played ATS in a tourney i've won it, i've also put up 1st and 2nd places playing with FEB, so i do consider myself an experienced survival player

i might post a list when i have more time, but i just wanted to say that i've been playing a black splash ATS ("plan b") that runs the set of 4 duress and 4 therapy and i stand behind it, i feel playing the disruption over countermagic gives the deck a new, sharper edge. i've talked to diablos a lot about the deck and can vouch for confound in the blue heavy version

i know the disruption doesnt stop TD'ed deeds, humilities etc, but the objective is to rip their hand and abuse survival before they know what hit them, so you basically go off and are ready to react when they recover

i understand playing 4 bayous in addition to the other duals might not be a hot idea in the syracuse meta, but in mine (portland, oregon) it's solid

i'd be happy to answer any questins about my version, just lmk

peace
Hey TVH, glad to see you here.

I know we've talked about this quite a bit, but what did you remove for the 4 Therapy and 4 Duress? I can only see around 5 slots(the 3 Force of Will and 2 Confound), but what about the other 3. Also, in your version, do u favor dropping mana accelleration or Disruption turn 1? I personally don't like the idea of disrupting over mana, so id like to hear your imput.

Peter_Rotten
10-30-2003, 04:37 PM
I think that a deck like ATS would favor dropping 1st turn mana acceleration over 1st turn disruption. It seems as if the point of the deck is to get your "stuff" out quickly and then control the match, not control the match and then get your stuff out. What I mean is that seems to be a deck using permanents to control the match.

I believe that the Duress and Therapy would be better suited to a combo deck, but keep in mind that I don't play the deck.

Also, I know Diablos8's opinion on Flame Tongue Kavu, but that guy just rocks in this deck. I can agree with him though, that Sharpshooter, FTK, and Masticore may be too redundant. For an heavy aggro meta, include FTK.

Di
10-30-2003, 07:36 PM
Also, I know Diablos8's opinion on Flame Tongue Kavu, but that guy just rocks in this deck. I can agree with him though, that Sharpshooter, FTK, and Masticore may be too redundant. For an heavy aggro meta, include FTK.
Correct, if the Syracuse metagame featured very little control, I could include FTK. But, seeing as it's mainly control, which is some-what of a tough match for me, despite me mizing it every time, i'd be useless. But on FTK, I'd much rather have a Gilded Drake most of the time. If there's something I want to kill, why not take it instead? Plus, taking an opponent's army > Killing it(and taking it a lot cheaper too).

TVH
10-30-2003, 09:52 PM
I know we've talked about this quite a bit, but what did you remove for the 4 Therapy and 4 Duress? I can only see around 5 slots(the 3 Force of Will and 2 Confound), but what about the other 3.

I don't have a decklist as I had to take apart the deck for a tournament for a teammate, but I will just say changes off of the most recent posted version (Mr. T's)

-1 sharpshooter (in the board, I think just having a Core MD is fine)
-1 idealist
-4 leak
-1 brainstorm

+4 duress
+3 therapy

When shifting the deck from reactive to proactive it really depends on playstyle (1) and metagame (2)

1) After dropping FoWs from the decklist, I didn't feel like i needed b'storms as much as before for some reason. They're great due to playing 6 fetchs+survival no doubt, no one can argue against that, but I was not dissapointed having discard in that slot

2) We also all know that the slots in ATS are incredibly hard to decide over, as freeing up one slot, much less 7-8, is very hard. Cutting countermagic for disruption is the way to go (imho), and if you are to attached to brainstorms, you consider your meta and then are able to start cutting a few select utility creatures. A few tournaments I played without a lyrist and sex monkey MD, and was fine. You just have to think about what threats you'll be facing, and think of the importance of say creatures like lyrist and monkey (which are the first i consider cutting), and consider if you actually need them in your MD, or if hasted 'Winds can take care of whatever threat you'd dispatch of with.

Examples: You definitely need monkey MD if you're expecting decks like Mud and Sligh, as bouncing their trouble artifacts doesnt help at all. With lyrist, really the only enchantments you fear are deed, good oath, and illusions to an extent (depends on the version they're playing)


Also, in your version, do u favor dropping mana accelleration or Disruption turn 1? I personally don't like the idea of disrupting over mana, so id like to hear your imput.

Both you and Peter are right in that you drop accel first turn, this deck doesnt play that much differently than the Blue version, but this one just uses cheap black disruption to force through key spells rather than countermagic. Besides, dropping a birst turn bird you are able to go turn 2 duress+survival, which is the optimal plan of the deck.

FTK: I believe there just isn't space for this guy, and diablos has always argued that if it's too big to "Core" it, then just Drake it, and if not that, just simply bounce it, and that's the truth. Even in aggro environments I wouldn't run him just because those are slots which could be used for better stuff.

That was a lengthy response but oh well.

peace

Di
10-31-2003, 12:33 PM
don't have a decklist as I had to take apart the deck for a tournament for a teammate, but I will just say changes off of the most recent posted version (Mr. T's)

-1 sharpshooter (in the board, I think just having a Core MD is fine)
-1 idealist
-4 leak
-1 brainstorm

+4 duress
+3 therapy

I wass assuming you made changes like this. No problems at all, if it works for ya, keep doing it. But I'm wondering, does that mean that you're also using Confound in the deck, since it wasn't mentioned in the slots? Or did you just not use it in your version?


2) We also all know that the slots in ATS are incredibly hard to decide over, as freeing up one slot, much less 7-8, is very hard. Cutting countermagic for disruption is the way to go (imho), and if you are to attached to brainstorms, you consider your meta and then are able to start cutting a few select utility creatures. A few tournaments I played without a lyrist and sex monkey MD, and was fine. You just have to think about what threats you'll be facing, and think of the importance of say creatures like lyrist and monkey (which are the first i consider cutting), and consider if you actually need them in your MD, or if hasted 'Winds can take care of whatever threat you'd dispatch of with.

Very true. For the slot choices, it's all just a metagame decision. That's why I don't run the black version of the deck, because Back to Baisics is The House against Syracuse. Same with Uktabi Orangutan, if you don't expect to see and Welder Mud or Sligh, then you don't need it in the maindeck(but atleast make room for it in the sideboard). Elvish Lyrist is a little more important though, because it stops a wider range of decks, including the mirror, Oath, Illusions, Aluren, the list goes on and on.

TVH
11-01-2003, 12:21 AM
But I'm wondering, does that mean that you're also using Confound in the deck, since it wasn't mentioned in the slots? Or did you just not use it in your version?

Yeah, I dropped Confound from "Plan B" but I strongly advocate it in both the UG version and the UGw version. It could easily SB'ed in the black version though.

Where's the discussion on the white version? I love playing it, and when a teammate needs Bayous, I play it in a second.

peace

Di
11-01-2003, 01:34 AM
Where's the discussion on the white version?
Are you talking about the *heavy* White version, featuring Sterling Grove and Radiant's Dragoons? If so, I'm not sure why nobody talks about. My guess is people rejected the version because it wasn't as fast as the normal UG. You see, people who discussed the white version said it did better against control. I don't understand that. Instead of playing a Survival turn 2, you can play a Sterling Grove, then play Survival turn 3, so the opponent can have his 2 UU mana open to counter. If people do play this deck, please discuss it. If it's working better than the UG or UGB builds please give some imput, we'd like to hear new ideas.

TVH
11-01-2003, 10:58 PM
Yeah the white version that plays 3 sterling groves, and a MD worship along with a MD seal to tutor for.

It's a tad slower than the UG version, but is a lot more consistent imho. The 3 groves are slower but playing with 7 survivals is a lot better than 4. The worship is also incredible, as it's a fallback if they take out sporefrog recursion, or if you don't have time to tradewind their threats. It's not better against control though, I don't know who was saying that.

Di
11-02-2003, 07:43 PM
Yeah the white version that plays 3 sterling groves, and a MD worship along with a MD seal to tutor for.

It's a tad slower than the UG version, but is a lot more consistent imho. The 3 groves are slower but playing with 7 survivals is a lot better than 4. The worship is also incredible, as it's a fallback if they take out sporefrog recursion, or if you don't have time to tradewind their threats. It's not better against control though, I don't know who was saying that.
Pretty sure Mike was saying it was, but I have no clue what he has behind his reasoning. Also, it technically isn't 7 Survivals unlike other tutor-like cards, because either way, there are only 4 Survivals the opponent has to counter.

I wasn't aware of the maindeck Worship, but it's techy, I like it. Does anyone(even Glow) have a list that we could perhaps work off of?

Lord McCaffrey
11-02-2003, 11:25 PM
// ATS w/White
// 1cc
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Quirion Ranger
// 2cc
4 Wall of Roots
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Gilded Drake
1 Monk Realist
4 Mana Leak
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Sterling Grove
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Sylvan Library
// 3cc
1 Spike Feeder
1 Uktabi Orangutan
1 Monk Idealist
1 Squee Goblin Nabob
// 4cc
4 Tradewind Rider
1 Spike Weaver
1 Masticore
1 Radiant Dragoon
1 Mystic Snake
1 Anger
1 Worship
// 5cc
1 Seedborn Muse
1 Genesis
// Land
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Tropical Island
3 Savannah
1 Taiga
4 Forest
// Sideboard
SB: 2 Stifle
SB: 1 Carrion Beetles
SB: 4 Chill
SB: 1 Seal of Cleansing
SB: 1 Compost
SB: 2 Back to Basics
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 1 Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 1 Cartographer

I believe this was Glo's at 1 time. It's about 3 to 4 months old but there hey, you take what you can get. With Grove you can run 1-of hosers to more effect, thus the lone Compost hanging out Sb. However, the heavier nonbasic count makes B2B somewhat less of a viable option. The md Seal also helps with whole Humility=hideous death issue. From my testing, this generally seems to be slower but more consistant than UGr ATS.



Edited By Lord McCaffrey on 1067830205

Runesword
11-03-2003, 12:44 AM
I would laugh... and laugh... and laugh to someoen survival for sharpshooter vs. Trenches.

I think the idea of sterling grove looks pretty cool, along with the seal and idealist. Looks like a nice degree of protection that way.

Mr. Anderson
11-03-2003, 01:57 AM
Yeah McCaffrey, that was Mike's list circa late june. It seems like the thing would be cool and i think it has potential to win out aginst other aggro and has a semi decent time aginst control. The worship really shuts down almost every aggro. It might be worth it to stick in beloved chaplin or something along thoes lines so that you could just drop the enchantment and then before they have time to kill all your stuff drop him and its just game. Ernest fellowship might also be worth including as you include sharpshooter to cast him on, then tuto fo the fellowship via you groves. Also, the Back to Basics in the sb wouldn't be very powerfull as it would begin to shut down your own stuff, and i dont that that Quirion Ranger would be enough to save yourself.

Another thing with this list is it has almost no draw. Brainstorms are cut completly and only 1 sylvan library. I think that it heavily decimates this deck to not be able to grab 10 cards out of the gate instead of seven.

In the board, I think its could be worth it to include more specific color hosers as you can tutro for them. Some might be douse, more chokes, and the like.

It seems that this could be the new evolution of ats, but i wonder how it would do. The concept needs testing, but i dont remember any being done at the time. I think it could be very sucsessful. Just Thoughts.

100-1066605550
11-03-2003, 10:20 AM
Stearly Grove version = you get survival every game.

Tradewind / Survival version = you get one or the other but not necessarily both each game.

Pro's of UG
Less basics
Colin likes BTB like its his girlfriend or something

Pro's of UGWx
More consistent deck
I like choke > btb since most duel land infested decks are blue based. Not all, but the ones you worry about are.

BTB does help verses dragon though, which choke does not so its a push I guess.


Edit: Colin is ok, and Caulyn is preferred. Colen is an insult.



Edited By Diablos on 1067889028

FakeSpam
11-03-2003, 01:25 PM
Colen likes BTB like its his girlfriend or something

BTB does help verses dragon though, which choke does not so its a push I guess.
On the girlfriend thing: I thought we already discussed this. Look, I'll believe it when I see it.

As for dragon, the best thing you have to fight them is an active tradewind. Until then, you are pretty much a casualty of war.

It would be nice to find room for FoW and mana leak. I know that list is a few months old, but, I don't see the point of dragoons and worship in the same deck.

Di
11-03-2003, 05:55 PM
The White version has too much other stuff to add FoW or Leak. With around 6-7 newer spells, that completely takes the space off FoW and Confound/Leak, whatever.

I see that as a problem. Because not only are those good against control, but FoW and Leak also stop any serious threas to the deck, such as an early Animate Dead from Dragon that a Tradewind might not be fast enough to stop, or maybe a Pernicious Deed that comes down on turn 3(Realize there's no maindeck Elvish Lyrist in Mike's build).

My <3 for Back to Basics is just because of the metagame. It's much better than Choke in Syracuse, and it does a number on most control decks anyway(Trenches, Hulk, that's like 8 dual lands that are shut out, and those lands will most likely be searched for between turns 1-3, leaving Back to Basics to stop them).


Another thing with this list is it has almost no draw. Brainstorms are cut completly and only 1 sylvan library. I think that it heavily decimates this deck to not be able to grab 10 cards out of the gate instead of seven.



The lack of draw is made up for by Sterling Grove, but now there's a new problem: You have no defense against Duress(which is one of the biggest cards in the format btw). Without protection from Duress/other Discard, you might not be able to come back in a game from losing a Survival, a game you should have won.

This leads me to consistancy issues. How can the deck be more consistant by removing all the Brainstorms and a Sylvan just for a tutor, who doesn't get the card until the next turn(aka Card Disadvantage). Someone will have to run that by me.



It seems that this could be the new evolution of ats, but i wonder how it would do. The concept needs testing, but i dont remember any being done at the time. I think it could be very sucsessful. Just Thoughts.

It's not really new, we actually made it public around May/June, but nobody really tested it(That includes Mike). If anyone has seriously tested the deck, and piloted it in a tournament report, fill us in on the details.

FakeSpam
11-04-2003, 11:15 AM
has anyone seen Ra's survival deck? you know, two squees, academy rector, sterling grove, deranged hermit? He finds room for mana leak. I wish I had a list, but, sadly, no :( . I guess that proves it can be done, however.

100-1066605550
11-04-2003, 01:07 PM
You can find room for a whole lot of shit if you ignore key pieces of the deck ;). Thats probably what he did. You need to keep a given creature count high enough so that survival remains effictive, in the face of extract or not. Since people are asking for White ATS, aka Recsur here is the list. Duress is always better than FOW / Mana leak in this. You Sideboard in Mana Leak and REB but thats another story.

// RecSur.dec
// 1cc
4 Birds of Pradise
2 Q. Ranger
1 Elvish Lyrasist / Monk Realist (there can be a case made for either)
4 Duress
// 2cc
4 Wall of Roots
1 Roffelous Llanowar Emisary
1 Guilded Drake
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Stearling Grove
// 3cc
1 Monk Idealist
1 Uktabi Orangutan
1 Wood Elf
1 Squee Goblin Naboob
// 4cc
2 Tradewind Rider
1 Spike Weaver
1 Masticore
1 Radient Dragoon
1 Anger
1 Mystic Snake
1 Opposition
// 5cc
1 Genisis / Recuring Nightmare
1 Seedborn Muse / Desolation Angel (whichever you prefere to lock them)
// Land
3 Windswept Heeth
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Savannah
3 Bayou
3 Tropical Island
1 Tiaga
2 Forest

// Sideboard
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Carion Beetle
3 Mana Leak
1 Seal of Clensing
1 Oversold Cemitary
1 Compost
1 Dwarven Minor
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Chalice of the Void

// Mana Breakdown
Black / Blue / White = 9 Lands + 4 Birds + 1 Wood Elf = 14
Green = 30
Red = 7 + 4 Birds + 1 Wood elf = 12.

I'm sure no one gets the sb, no one got it in the 2 years I played it. Just think about it and run through the matchups. It works. Chalice is just better than chill also, and it can be used verses suicide if necessary. This just aims at being a more conistent ATS deck. It has the same toys just has more powerful spells (tutors) and duress. It also has a much better sideboard. Yes BTB / Choke are nice but REB / Mana Leak are better verses the new bread of power decks. 4 Duress / 3 Leak / 3 REB gives u a better chance verses dragon than ATS.

Di
11-04-2003, 05:39 PM
has anyone seen Ra's survival deck? you know, two squees, academy rector, sterling grove, deranged hermit? He finds room for mana leak. I wish I had a list, but, sadly, no :( . I guess that proves it can be done, however.
Ra's deck is like really, really slow. It's ATS, but take a turn or two off. I'm not 100 sure why he has Academy Rector, since he has no way to sacrifice it, and a lot of his cards are really poor choices(Deranged Hermit, Avalanche Riders maybe, and I think he also runs Man-0-War.)


// Sideboard
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Carion Beetle
3 Mana Leak
1 Seal of Clensing
1 Oversold Cemitary
1 Compost
1 Dwarven Minor
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Chalice of the Void

Lol @ Chalice of the Void. Are you kidding me? Honestly. 11 one mana spells, and 13 2 mana spells. That's the funniest thing I've ever seen.



Edited By Diablos on 1067982133

100-1066605550
11-04-2003, 07:11 PM
Well true, i have 10 actualy :) But whatever I would sideboard out Duress for the chalices verses burn. Just me. 6-7 1cc spells is worth chalices investment. They just burn your dorks anyways and you establish root advantage. Its just verses sligh / stompy / tiaga that can overwelm you. It might be worth it. Its just a idea :P

Mike



Edited By drg` on 1067987516

Di
11-04-2003, 07:57 PM
Why would it be worth wasting your mana on the 2nd turn(which is the turn to cast the Survival derf) when you already have nearly an auto-win against the deck. It's seriously pointless.

100-1066605550
11-04-2003, 08:27 PM
True, Chill is fine I guess, I just like chalice ;).

Yeah I got post #50 :D

crshibby
12-21-2003, 10:39 PM
I know this topic has not been replied to in a while, but after seeing it I started to test it out a little. Does anyone think that Xantid Swarm is a good choice in here? I mean I know the MD is very very tight, and not much can be taken out. If we could squeze at least 3 in MD you would almost be guarnted a Birds or Swarm turn 1. It is an awsome card against control. If we couldnt get them in main, matbe find room for them in the sb. Are they worth the spots?

Di
12-21-2003, 11:01 PM
Xantid Swarm I actually have in my current sideboard for ATS(as in brand new). It doesn't need maindeck slots, because they'd be dead in the maindeck against almost 90% of the field. Anyway, for those people who actually care, here's the sideboard I'd use(If I wasn't playing Dragon) for the current metagame:

3 Back to Basics
3 Stifle
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Choke
2 Naturalize
2 Xantid Swarm

For this new sideboard, you have a much better chance against Dragon that you originally did. Before I made this board, I was losing to dragon with ATS more than 75% of the time. Now, that the sideboard has 11 cards that can go in, it's a much better matchup. But that doesn't mean that all of this in in there for the Dragon matchup.

The Back to Basics count was upped due to Control having a small number of basics currently, and most of the viable decks running off a mass number of non-basics, which makes it an amazing card against them. We also have Stifle, Choke, and Xantid Swarm against control, so that's tough for them.

Against Goblins, 3 Stifle should buy you some time to get going with either the Spore Frog lock, Masticore+Rofellos lock, or Goblin Sharpshooter to hold them off. It poses a much better matchup against Goblins than most other decks, mainly because it has a host of blockers to stop the fast rush.

Welder Mud is generally the same as it was before, except there is an additional Back to Basics to slow them down. It has never been a really tough matchup, because your fast mana acceleration and Quirion Ranger foil the plans of the Mud player.

So yeah, that's an update for all who care about the deck.And Btw, if anyone has a Foil Windswept Heath, talk to me. It's the only card I need for the deck that isn't upgraded.

crshibby
12-21-2003, 11:28 PM
Yea, I tested ATS against Dragon also, and lost 75%. The deck I played didnt even have Bazzars. YOur sb setup look good against Dragon or any other Reanimator based deck.
Do you think you can get the Masticor/Rofellos, or Goblin Sharpshooter out in time if you were playing something like SeethingGoblinVintage? You have a slim chance of drawing Sharpshooter opening hand, and if you Survival for it it still wont have haste unless you get anger in your graveyard , of course. I have Seething Vintage built also, and its a hell of a lot faster than any other goblin deck. I dont think you can keep up with GoblinVintage.

Di
12-21-2003, 11:56 PM
ATS can easily support turn 3 hasted Goblin Sharpshooter. But also remember, the deck can also slow them down if they want. Here's a scenario that can slow Gobvantage down without Sharpshooter.
Let's just say ATS is playing first:

Turn 1: Birds of Paradise.
Turn 2: Taiga, Survival, search for Anger.
Turn 3: Play a land, ditch Anger for Rofellos, tap Rofellos(3 mana in pool), tap another Land(4 mana), cast Wall of Roots(2 mana left), Survival for Genesis, ditch Genesis for Frog, cast Spore Frog using Wall of Roots. If this is after a turn when Goblin Recruiter is cast, there's a slim chance that they will be tutoring up a creature to kill Frog with, since they will just as easily go for a few Piledrivers, Ringleader, etc to kill you. Now, with Spore Frog lock, you'll have a turn or 2 to get Tradewind/Seedborn lock on them, or Masticore lock.

Also note, if they cast Recruiter, they'll be putting Ringleader on top most definatly. You can just tutor out Mystic Snake and counter it, then next turn get Golin Sharpshooter to kill the creatures they already have, and so on.

ATS has never really had trouble with aggro, with the exception of Suicide Black, due to the excessive disruption they have of your hand and manabase.

69-1069452887
12-22-2003, 12:57 AM
Hi,

@Diablos: I posted earlier in the Normal 1.5 forum about a deck that would own my meta. Godzilla had recommended FCG and it was left at that. However, I've always been a big fan of your deck and was wondering if this would survive in my meta. BTW, here's my meta again:

Aggro

HUGE amount of Goblin based decks (bad burn; non FCG, GobVantage)
some white lightning
some sui black
little parfait

Combo

some reanimator
little trix
lot of homemade combos (aka random.dec)

Control

some watered down BBS
little ugw oath

Decks that are not there so dont worry about them:

Dragon
Trenches
Keeper
MUD
Mask
FEB/ATS

I like ATS for its consistency and its ability to get out of most every situation. I do not doubt that FCG is an excellent deck, but it is definitely not my play style whereas ATS is. Well, do you think that with the proper sideboard, this would be a good metagame choice? Any advice is welcome from anybody. Thanks.

Di
12-22-2003, 12:56 PM
EnIgMaTiK- ATS would shine in your metagame. When there is only a small portion of control, and combo that isn't tough for the deck to beat, you might as well be in heaven.


Well, do you think that with the proper sideboard, this would be a good metagame choice

With a proper sideboard, it can be a good choice in any metagame. My own sideboard that I have I feel is very strong towards my own metagame, as the Syracuse meta has all of the upper-tier decks in the format. But your sideboard would look different. Here's a sideboard that you could use for your heavy aggro metagame:

3 Natualize(Parfait, Trix, Oath)
3 Stifle(Anything really, but in particular: Oath, Trix, any other combo that it'd hurt).
2 Tormod's Crypt(Reanimator, Oath)
3 Choke/Back to Basics(Oath, BBS, etc)
4 Chill(Goblins, Sligh/burn)

That's just a rough sketch, but it can work against your metagame.

Eclipt1c
01-22-2004, 06:17 PM
An update for card choices maindeck:
I found this card in the Darksteel Spoiler on MTG News:

Viridian Zealot -GG
Creature - Elf
1G, Sacrifice Viridian Zealot: Destroy target artifact or enchantment.
2/1
"I will fight only the way nature intended -- and nature intended us to win."
90/165

I'm planning on replacing the Uktabi Orangutan and Lyrist with this maindeck, freeing up a slot. What do you guys think?

PS: Link to Card: Viridian Zealot (http://www.mtgnews.com/tracing/darksteel/images/darksteelbooster%20zealot.jpg)
Link to Spoiler: Spoiler (http://www.mtgnews.com/tracing/darksteel/)

Di
01-22-2004, 07:22 PM
Viridian Zealot is insane. Once it's legal, I'll be replacing both Lyrist and Uktabi for it, running 2 Viridian Zealot maindeck. I might run 1 or 2 sideboard as well, because the card is just awesome.

Eclipt1c
01-22-2004, 08:37 PM
Is two main deck really necessary? Seeing as how they'd be replacing the Naturalizes, what would you put in the sideboard to fill the slots?

Di
01-22-2004, 09:55 PM
Is two main deck really necessary? Seeing as how they'd be replacing the Naturalizes, what would you put in the sideboard to fill the slots?

They aren't nessessarily replacing Naturalizes. They basically are Naturalizes 3 and 4 for me. I also think 2 main is fine. I mean, it basically means I'm running 2 Uktabi Orangutan and 2 Elvish Lyrist in the maindeck. But I'm considering maybe keeping in Uktabi Orangutan and just dropping Elvish Lyrist for it, because Uktabi has great synergy with Tradewind Rider, which is somewhat important in the Welder Mud matchup(if you're able to pull it off, which you should be able to.)

kirdape3
01-23-2004, 09:10 PM
Please tell me you are running Viridian Joiner (the new Naturalize on a stick) when he becomes legal in less than a month. 1GGG to smash down artifact or enchantment is pretty steep, but you don't have to wait a turn like you would under Lyrist.

Di
01-24-2004, 10:00 PM
Please tell me you are running Viridian Joiner (the new Naturalize on a stick) when he becomes legal in less than a month. 1GGG to smash down artifact or enchantment is pretty steep, but you don't have to wait a turn like you would under Lyrist.
Uh yeah, read like, the last 3 posts of the thread. They've all been devoted to the new guy, but he's called "Viridian Zealot" as far as I know(at least that's his name on the card.)

gregg
02-02-2004, 02:04 PM
Im not too sure about the Zealot.. I mean, it costs 1GGG to activate the same turn, although he doesn't need haste, I still prefer the lyrist and monkey over it, considering less mana to use, and more for other random things

69-1069452887
02-23-2004, 11:39 PM
[color=#000000:post_uid6]Hi,

After a long hiatus of pursuing console gaming and Counter-Strike, I'm back to magic :O

Anyway, I'm still interested in ATS.

Diablos, could you give me a quick rundown of how to play it correctly, like what u want to get out when and in what order. My meta is mostly bad goblin aggro and random combo with a fundamental turn around 7-10.

Any advice from anyone is appreciated. Thanks.

<TMK>[/color:post_uid6]

103-1077288446
02-24-2004, 12:29 AM
@EnIgMaTiK

Since myself and colin basically made / refined ATS I thought I would answer your question since he's not around for whatever reason.

ATS is a passive control deck that aims to out mana superiority its opponent and set up a defensive front through among other things Tradewind and utility creatures spawned from Survival of the Fittest. Your goal is to establish a 0 permanent lock on the opponent through Tradewind Rider x1-2 and / or any combination of Seedborn Muse / Q. Ranger. You want to set up mana through Birds / Roots / Q. Ranger / Roffelous. You survival for various guys that help answer threats that come up or will come up in a few turns. You have control over recurring the Graveyard and in play abilities through Tradewind or Genesis. You really don't need to swing for this deck to win, and usually are best served sitting back and playing defense to conserve life points. If they won't scoop with 0 permanents then you can kill them then as long as you hold back enough to maintain your Tradewind lock on them. Usually Seedborn + Tradewind + 1 guy+ can swing and then on there turn untap again and bounce there perment till they die. Due to your reactive nature you don't need stuff like Deranged Hermit or kills like that.

Hope this helps,
Mike

Eclipt1c
02-24-2004, 07:54 PM
Can't the deck be played more aggressively? I usually like to drop Masticore as early as possible then build up the lock. Also, after looking at shadowskyno2's Munchies deck, I liked the idea of using Goblin Pyromancer for anti-Goblins. You can side out something like a Gilded Drake, and side this in. This gives you Walls, Sharpshooter, Core, and Pyromancer as good anti-Goblin cards.

troopatroop
02-24-2004, 08:47 PM
Does this deck do well in tournaments? I might play it a few times... just doesnt seem very quick to me.

Eclipt1c
02-24-2004, 10:02 PM
It's pretty quick, it can easily get 7 mana turn 3 with 2 forests, a Birds of Paradise, and a Rofellos. Basically if you can get Rofellos out and keep him out you'll have massive amounts of mana to do whatever you want.

69-1069452887
02-24-2004, 10:07 PM
Hi,

Thanks glow.

There's one thing that I'm afraid of and that's control. We have mostly bad aggro, but im not afraid of that. Or the homemade combos. I'm worried about counterspells. I've playtested with the deck and pretty much any deck running a decent number of permission and counters can easily keep survival off the table. And its not very often you draw into another survival. And, I've lost too many games to random decks because I cant draw a SoF in time. Please advise on ways to alleviate this situation. Thanks.

Di
02-24-2004, 10:42 PM
Can't the deck be played more aggressively? I usually like to drop Masticore as early as possible then build up the lock. Also, after looking at shadowskyno2's Munchies deck, I liked the idea of using Goblin Pyromancer for anti-Goblins. You can side out something like a Gilded Drake, and side this in. This gives you Walls, Sharpshooter, Core, and Pyromancer as good anti-Goblin cards

More aggressive? It's like as aggressive as can be, except it isn't attacking :;):

Gilded Drake isn't very strong in the matchup, but it has it's uses, the main one being the taking of Goblin Warcheif, screwing up their speed. If it also becomes a problem, you could take Lackey too, or their Sharpshooter. The thing is, the deck already has a pretty good game against Goblins to begin with. Wall of Roots keeps them at bay for you to build up some time, Stifle hoses Ringleader, and stops Recruiter, Lackey, Matron, and Gempalm, and of course Masticore says "Die". The fact that it can block is the it's best asset. I find the reason why Goblins does so well is because there are a high number of decks that can't block Piledriver and friends. Decks like Dragon, WelderMud, or Trenches/Smash are prime examples. If any of them don't get a start that can slow them down(or in Dragon's case, win), then they just flat out die. In most of the aggro decks, the creatures are just too small to handle Piledrivers, so they die too. 0/5 wall stops im for a little while. That, and you have infinate Frog which buys more than enough time.


Does this deck do well in tournaments? I might play it a few times... just doesnt seem very quick to me.

I've played the deck in tournaments around 20 times I think. I've missed top8 once(I believe I came in 10th), and I've missed top4 maybe 3-4 times. It's just nuts how explosive the deck is. In terms of speed, it's easily as fast as Food Chain or Dragon. Problem is getting what it needs for that speed. I've played hands that have turn 4 double Tradewind Rider+Seedborn Muse madness and other craziness. The deck is very fast, consistant and versitile(sp?).

Eclipt1c
02-25-2004, 07:58 AM
More aggressive? It's like as aggressive as can be, except it isn't attacking :;):

That's what I'm talking about. I think throwing Masticore head first at them as soon as possible and then right after that start setting up the tradewind lock would be the best method.

103-1077288446
02-25-2004, 08:17 AM
That would be incorect. The whole point of the deck is to gain tempo advantage. Once you lock preferably through Seedborn + Tradewind + guy you bounce all there permenets. If the fail to scoop at that point you swing on your turn untap on theres and bounce there freshly played land and answere there other spell as necessary. Verses decks like dragon you have to be more careful as they can Ritual Necromancy durring the end step when you bounce a land but whatever. The deck is build and played aggresively in board position but defensively in aggresive nature. Masticore is not in there because it can swing better than the rest of the deck, it is in there as its colorless removal that can be Survivaled for. That was reasoning behind nearly every card in the deck when I initialy built it in its alpha stages. We had stuff like Volraths Shapeshifter x1 and Naught / Hellion for the combo but it seemed so out of place. We also experimented with Deranged Hermit for a while. Yes its solid as far as setting up chump blocking but the ATS players turned to aggresive with it. It truely has no core functionality in the deck if it lacks Opposition. I initianly had it in my RecSur build 2 years ago due to that. We phased it out as there were more cards that would set us up for the win and not act as win more cards. I recently re added Opposition to the build as I run 3 Stearling Groves for more consistent Survivals as well as a up in the blue card count for FOW to become more efficient. Stasis also functions as a lock compontent that can either buy you time or win outright.

Hope this helps explain the core of the deck. I'll try to write a primer this weekend about the theory and application of this deck after I get all my work done. I will cover the thought behind each card as well as combinations that each card shares with other cards as well as matchup analysis and SB swaps. A primer is needed more so for a play idiology than anything. ATS is the most complecated deck in 1.5 for a reason as it offers you T1 Keeper like functionality except with guys. You often have to learn how to think 3-4 turns ahead of where you are to play it properly.

Mike



Edited By glow on 1077711601

Di
02-25-2004, 04:56 PM
That's what I'm talking about. I think throwing Masticore head first at them as soon as possible and then right after that start setting up the tradewind lock would be the best method.

I don't think I completely explained my statement. It's not like you're just going to say go with untapped creatures while the opponent does nothing, of course the deck will be attacking. The deck attacks a lot, but that's not what ATS's focus is. It's designed to control the game, not bash face. If I want to bash face, I can play a much worse aggro deck.


I'll try to write a primer this weekend about the theory and application of this deck after I get all my work done. I will cover the thought behind each card as well as combinations that each card shares with other cards as well as matchup analysis and SB swaps.


I've.Been.Working.On.Primer.For.About.A.Month. Wtf? I just wonder how you'd ever be able to get time to work on a primer with all this work you have to do, and yet you can't buy time to stay on the website for over a few weeks...

If you want to help me on it, you're more than welcome. But, for the record, I totally dismiss your decklists, because they are trying to use Back to Basics with almost as many non-basics as Tariq White uses. Come on . :p.



A primer is needed more so for a play idiology than anything. ATS is the most complecated deck in 1.5 for a reason as it offers you T1 Keeper like functionality except with guys. You often have to learn how to think 3-4 turns ahead of where you are to play it properly.

Unfortunately nobody else really understands the true difficulty of the deck.



Edited By Diablos on 1077742727

Eclipt1c
02-25-2004, 04:57 PM
// Manipulation
3 Brainstorm
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Stearling Grove - Gets Survival now, not later like Sylvan.

// Counters
4 Force of Will - format is to fast for leak now.
1 Mystic Snake

// Lock
4 Tradewind Rider
1 Seedborn Muse
1 Stasis // Lots of silly combo's with this including Tradewind or Q. Ranger + Birds
1 Opposition

// Teh Graveyard
1 Anger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Genesis

// Utility
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Masticore
1 New Naturalize GG 2/1 dork // yes i know its worse than either lyrasis / sex monkie but its one spot.
1 Radient Dragoon - better w/ tradewind than feeder
1 Spore Frog // Format is to fast for Weaver
1 Gilded Drake

// Mana Dorks
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Quirion Ranger
4 Wall of Roots
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary

// Land
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Savannah
1 Taiga
5 Forest

Sideboard:
3 Stifle // Dragon / FCG / Other
4 Chill // FCG / Sligh
3 Ground Seal
1 Seal of Clensing // Humility sucks mmm k, tutorable.
3 Back to Basics // Q Ranger plays around stuff as does birds.
1 Monk Idealist // Recursion of Clensing


Looking at your list glow, it looks to me like this version of the deck is a bit more careful than the other one. I'm not quite sure as to which version I should be playing in my metagame. My metagame is mostly dragon (No VA birthplace of Spoils/Gamble Dragon), goblins of all sorts, and some keeper/trenches variants running around. However, my friends also play Parfait, Void, and secret force. I had some questions about your deck as well. First of all about Opposition. I see the synergy and how well it works with the deck, but it seems to me like its a win more card and not really necessary to the deck. I was also wondering if you've been missing the Sylvan Libraries at all. Once again, as with the Opposition, the Stasis doesn't seem all that necessary to the deck, albeit synergistic.

I've also been having some problems with Wasteland/Dusbowl disruption on my Tiaga. I know haste isn't essential to the deck, but I always wish I had it when I don't, and it has cost me a few games. I'm currently running Diablos' setup and I'm not quite sure what to cut for Cartographer.

Di
02-25-2004, 05:18 PM
I'm currently running Diablos' setup and I'm not quite sure what to cut for Cartographer.

Cartographer is in the sideboard currently, but I'm trying to get him in the maindeck. Currently, I'm trying both the removal of the maindeck Spike Feeder(goes to SB in Cart's place) and Cartographer as the 61st card. So far, I really like the 61 cards.


I know haste isn't essential to the deck, but I always wish I had it when I don't, and it has cost me a few games

That statement pretty much says you have no clue on what you're doing. Haste is *the* number one thing in this deck. The reason why the deck is so strong and fast is because of Anger. I'd know, we didn't include Anger until June 2003, three months after we constructed the deck. Before Anger, the deck was still really, really good. Adding Anger just made it 10x better, because it made you at least a turn and a half faster than the pre-Anger build. I think that's quite a difference in the game. Plus, Anger plays a huge role in beating Dragon. If you can stall them for a turn or two, then when Anger goes in the grave, your Tradewinds, Sharpshooter, and Lyrist are all ready to win for you. Viridian Zealot does too, but I ph34r that the four mana it requires could be too much. Granted, he doesn't have haste, but I find it tough to be able to Survival for him, and have 4 mana open all the time against Dragon.


I had some questions about your deck as well. First of all about Opposition. I see the synergy and how well it works with the deck, but it seems to me like its a win more card and not really necessary to the deck. I was also wondering if you've been missing the Sylvan Libraries at all. Once again, as with the Opposition, the Stasis doesn't seem all that necessary to the deck, albeit synergistic.

Glow pretty much gave himself a game loss against control with the removal of Sylvan Library. Adding Opposition and Stasis, that's just silly talk. Synergy within the core of the deck, yes. Are they good for the deck, no. Are they needed to win, no. Sure they can be fetched for, but I don't think they are nessesary, at all. You guys can ask any of the control players I've played against in Syracuse with the deck(Bob, Tariq, your heads should pop up). Almost 75% of the time I won those rounds(game 1, BtB and Choke clean up game two and three) was because of Sylvan Library. It gives the deck card advantage that control can't stop. Yes, they StP a Tradewind, which is a bummer, but I go through cards and cards and cards every turn, I'll most likely have more to cast on you. It's very key in winning the control matchup in the 1st game, because the tools of the deck don't function well when they aren't backed by card advantage against decks that crush our board.


Looking at your list glow, it looks to me like this version of the deck is a bit more careful than the other one. I'm not quite sure as to which version I should be playing in my metagame. My metagame is mostly dragon (No VA birthplace of Spoils/Gamble Dragon), goblins of all sorts, and some keeper/trenches variants running around

I strongly favor the maindeck Stifles in my version. They make bad things turn good, like your game one against Dragon and Food Chain. Running more non-basics in the deck isn't more careful. Even if Birds, Quirion Ranger, other mana producers negate the effects, that doesn't mean it won't hurt me. There have been plenty of games where I've been stumped on a small supply of mana ecasue of BtB, and Mike's list would suffer more from it. In the matchups that BtB comes in for, they can just say "Hello, my name is Fire, and I'll be sending your Quirion Ranger and Birds of Paradise to Hell. Have a wonderful day".

His list is also a bit weaker against Dragon, because it's a lot slower. Even though, as a Dragon player, I can sshrug Tormod's Crypt off, it should be played. It's a turn 1 answer that will buy lots of time. Ground Seal is better, replaces itself, and shuts them down too, but I really like the idea of paying 0 mana over 2 mana, so I can cast other spells(like Lyrist, Stifle, Naturalize, etc). The only plus in Ground Seal is that you can tutor for it. Slowly, like, 3rd turn maybe, but you can. And the problem with that is, while you tap out to cast Sterling Grove, they go off, because God knows he'll have a Duress or Force backup for your Force.

gregg
02-25-2004, 07:49 PM
Here's the list I've been playing (granted, there's no dragon, fcg, or anything like that here, and it works fine)
// Lands
7 Forest
4 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath

// Creatures
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Genesis
1 Seedborn Muse
1 Anger
1 Mystic Snake
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Tradewind Rider
4 Wall of Roots
2 Quirion Ranger
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Elvish Lyrist
2 Spike Feeder
1 Spike Weaver
1 Gilded Drake
1 Cartographer
1 Uktabi Orangutan

// Spells
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Brainstorm
2 Sylvan Library
3 Force of Will
3 Mana Leak

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Chill
SB: 3 Choke
SB: 2 Naturalize
SB: 4 Stifle
SB: 1 Auramancer
SB: 1 Spike Feeder

Reasonings:
Spike Weaver over Spore Frog- theres more traditional sligh here than goblin sligh, so I'd rather have a beefier guy than one that dies to ever piece of removal they have. Not to mention, in response to a lightning bolt or whatever, I can just move counters to another creature.

2 Spike Feeders- Even though there is a couple of sligh decks, there's still a lot of wastelands and suiblack. so i had to cut something for cartographer, and this was it.

5 fetches- i found 6 to be too many, so 5 is fine for me, i usualy have them get 2 tropicals and a taiga, after that, i usually don't need them.

0 Masticore- I have the sharpshooter for that, core costs 4 (yes mike, I know, with rofello's he's nuts, but w/e) shooter sitll does the same job as core, and if the creature has a toughness of 3 or more, I'm most likely going to take it, and not shoot it down.

6 counters- at first, it was 4 mana leak, then I took out 1 something and 2 leaks for 3 forces, then I took something else out for the 3rd leak (6 counters is much needed against landstill, but I still don't draw them enough)

Cartographer- Obv, we know what he's there for.

sb:
4 chill- sligh sucks, its my answer to sligh basically, well, atleast make them slow as hell.
3 choke- landstill, donate, and other stupid blue decks.
2 Naturalize- donate, scepters, land tax, scroll racks, masticores, etc.
4 Stifle- donate, wastelands, fetchlands, etc.
1 Auramancer- there's quite a few decks out there in my metagame that like to kill my enchantments
1 Spike Feeder- sligh, donate, etc.

Eclipt1c
02-25-2004, 07:56 PM
I still like the addition of Wirewood Guardian into the deck. It serves as a tutorable fetchland, for when you need land, usually Taiga.

Di
02-25-2004, 08:22 PM
I still like the addition of Wirewood Guardian into this deck. It serves as a tutorable fetchland, for when you need land, usually Taiga.

I really liked it too, until I realized the bad things about it. It was great being a Taiga whenever I needed it, but the problem is, it's a land that costs mana to use. I really hated that. In testing, I got screwed over because I didn't have my 2nd land a few times(I removed a fetch instead of this at the time). I decided I didn't want to take that risk, so I dumped it.

gregg
02-25-2004, 09:44 PM
I personally never liked the idea of the guardian, maybe because I had to pay 3 mana to get a land, just didn't suit me for a deck that wants so much mana early game.

steppenelf
02-25-2004, 11:09 PM
I used to play the deck with black but i cut that. i played guardian for a while and it annoyed the hell out of me. i also run 2 taigas to combat losing them. with guardian i found myself just dropping him as a fat man most of the time, having to pay 2 in the early game to get the taiga just doesn't work. masticore is a house. in scrubby metagame just dropping core wins half my games.

Di
02-26-2004, 03:28 PM
Running more than 1 Taiga is a great idea, but using Cartographer gives you infinate Taiga(and every other land). Cartographer has insane synergy with the deck, and I'll most likely be maindecking it soon.

It's good to see that others don't like Guardian either, because when it came out there was a lot of hype about it for the deck, and I never really kept in touch with the people who still played it. It's just bad with thd deck. If I want to do something messed up like that, I'd just play Wood Elf, which has much better synergy with the deck.

103-1077288446
02-29-2004, 03:08 PM
In an attempt to get more consistent Survival of the Fittests I have went back to the framework that worked for me back when I played RecSur and that is to incorperate 3 Stearling Grove. Stearling Grove picked up for Vampiric Tutor's in the old RecSur 1.x list. Diablo's would prefer to have less consistent Survivals as he likes to play creature superiority more than I do. I would rather have Survival Consistency and Creature Superiority. Brainstorm is a great card however instead of digging for a answere I will just get a answere with Grove.

Due to the speed of the format I have changed Leak's back to FOW and Weaver to Frog (fcg is to fast for weaver). I've also adapted the Stifle convention as winning verses dragon / fcg is just to annoying without them, though you love to tap out with this list.

The main difference between Diablo's and my list is the fact that I prefere Stearling over Storm and that even though I dislike Viridian Zealot in regards to Uktabi and Lyrasist the extra spot it gives me allows me to run Opportunity which is a powerful hoser verses varous decks from Dragon to Landstill that is a must counter. It also is a tutorable target from grove. I'm still not sure if its solid enough without its favorite target Deranged Hermit but hermit is replcable with Seedborn Muse.

// Stearling ATS
// Manipulation
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Stearling Grove
2 Sylvan Library

// Counters
2 Stifle
1 Mystic Snake
4 Force of Will

// Lock
4 Tradewind Rider
1 Seedborn Muse
1 Opposition

// Teh Graveyard
1 Anger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Genesis

// Utility
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Masticore
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Radient Dragoon
1 Spore Frog
1 Gilded Drake

// Mana Dorks
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Quirion Ranger
4 Wall of Roots
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary

// Land
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Savannah
1 Taiga
5 Forest

Sideboard:
4 Chill
3 Ground Seal
3 Naturalize
3 Back to Basics
2 of the following Worship / Stasis / Compost / Choke / Xantid Swarm / Cartagropher / Quario / Quarum Trench Gnomes / Vilian (ATS / Hulk) / Carion Beatle / Molder Slug / Other

I can get away with BTB sb as I have 5 Basics, 6 Fetches, 4 Birds, 2 Q. Ranger, 4 Root, 1 Roffelous. It is 2 more non basic lands than traditional ATS and traditional ATS runs BTB as well as Chokes.

Mike

Di
02-29-2004, 08:28 PM
So yeah, I just came back from a tourny, playing ATS, and I absolutely loved it again.

I ran my standard decklist, except I added Cartographer to the maindeck as the 61st card. Cartographer proved to be amazing in the maindeck, so it'll be staying. I ran a much different sideboard than I opted, but it still turned out to be really good. Here's the board I ran for the tourny:

3 Back to Basics
2 Choke
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Chill
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Naturalize
1 Spike Feeder
1 Stifle

I really liked the board today, because it turned out to be great for the meta. I'm not going to write a tourny report, but I will share with the kids what happened with sideboarding, because I'm bored as Hell.

Round 1. I play against a 5-color Survival deck that has Hunting Grounds. It's based on sending stuff like Anger, Wonder, Glory, etc to the grave and getting Threshold, then using Hunting Grounds to get lots of fat into play for free, then smash.

So yeah, I did mention it was 5-color? I never saw a single basic, so Back to Basics pounded his ass. Naturalize and Tormod's Crypt also ripped him up.

Round 2. Lacasse Survival. All I have against him in the board is Stifle, Naturalizes, and Crypts, but I only put in the Stifle and Naturalizes. They don't show up in the round, but I won it anyway.

Round 3, against GoblinBidding. Yeah, Chill. I suppose it will stay in the board, because it says I win. Then again, so did Masticore and Sharpshooter :).

Round 4. Suicide Black. I had Stifle and Naturalizes(He ran stuff like Abyss, Masticores, War Beast, Kegs, etc). Naturalize was nuts, and Stifle, although already in my maindeck, was funny as Hell.

Top8, I played against the same 5-color Survival deck. In top4, we all did a 4-way split because we didn't feel like playing.

So yeah, I think the performance I had shows that ATS is still a serious contender for Tier 1. Of course, I didn't nessessarily play against all Tier 1 decks in the tourny, it's still doing great. It has a good matchup against the rest of the Tier 1, with the exception of pre-sideboard LandStill. Post board, they like, Die. If it means anything, after the tourny the deck housed Welder Mud, then had some fun of it's own against FCG.

103-1077288446
02-29-2004, 10:58 PM
made u exert effort ^_^. Evil 666 ++

GJ posting tournements in non tournement forums. Reported to moderators for rules violation ^_^.

frogboy
03-01-2004, 12:19 AM
I'm seriously wondering how you people fare in the control matchups. ATS is continually monkeystomped locally.

103-1077288446
03-01-2004, 12:33 AM
I win the control matchup and i'm sure colin does fine. But then again we play the deck 'correctly'. I can't say that for 99% of the ats players out there. Its just complex to play and we both have boat loads of recsur / ats experence and testing for it. but it takes time. It can't just be picked up and win with. Its not that type of deck. You have to learn it inside and out. You have to learn how to force key spells and how to bait others. BTB helps a lot in the control mirror and swarm can also work if you run that.

Mike

Di
03-01-2004, 03:59 PM
I'm seriously wondering how you people fare in the control matchups. ATS is continually monkeystomped locally.

The only reasoning I can see behind that is that the player playing ATS is either a bad player, bad with the deck, new to the deck, or all three. As Mike said, the deck isn't something you can just pick up and win 30 tournaments with. It takes time and practice.

For the control matchup, it depends on the build. LandStill is the worst of the three Tier 1 control decks(LandStill, Trenches, Smash), because they have a lot more removal, and have the ability to draw cards faster through Standstill. Trenches is similiar, but they don't nessessarily have the 4 Fire/Ice and StP maindeck. But what Trenches loses in that gains Isochron Scepter, which is just game if Fire/Ice goes on it. The Smash is much easier, due to it's lack of spot removal, but they run a lot more 1-drops in Stifle and Force Spike(the other control decks only run either, not both), Innocent Blood, and of course Duress, which is the biggest nuisance. They also have Pernicious Deed, which is nights out if it's popped.

So basically, game 1 there isn't much hope. It's far from unwinnable, but it isn't in your favor. I've won many a game 1(lol, that sounded funny) against good control, but you have to have a great start and hope you can slow them down early. An early Stifle on a fetchland is key, and getting down Sylvan or Survival is important, as well as establishing board position. Game 2 however, should without a doubt be in your favor. In addition to all the bombs you have in the maindeck, you now have Back to Basics, Choke, and Xantid Swarm post sideboard. They make the control player play a lot differently, because now they will be in a ph34r of having no lands to untap, which means the ATS player wins.

103-1077288446
03-01-2004, 05:59 PM
Basicaly I agree with what colin said. My version tries to get more consistent survivals so that I can Force them one after another as well as other bombs. A often underlooked card in the control mirror is Naturalize. It takes care of landstills best removal verses you, disk, and it takes care of Deed unless they cast it with 4 mana open, and Scepter if they tap out eot. 3 and 3 BTB work fine as they combine with 4 Tradewind, 2 Sylvan, 4 Fow, 4 Survival, 3 Groves, 2 Stifle (on there lands or deed or scepter) among other things.

kirdape3
03-01-2004, 06:08 PM
Proper control decks have something on the order of twelve billion counterspells (making it highly unlikely that you'll resolve much of anything that I care about), plus Swords to Plowshares and Nevinyrral's Disk. The only cards that are truly must-counters from you are Survival and Back to Basics - otherwise you are a hideously inefficient beatdown deck. A competent control player should be able to manage that, as my removal is just so cheap to negate your creatures.

Di
03-01-2004, 06:35 PM
Problem is Kirdape, you obviously under-estimate the power of the cards going against you. If you want to leave Sylvan Library on the table, I'm perfectly happy with that, all because it will lead to be getting lots of cards and casting multiple bombs on a single turn. You still don't want to counter Choke? Don't you have like 11-12 Islands in the deck? You tap out for Disk, and then all of a sudden I Drop Naturalize and BtB. Oops.

kirdape3
03-01-2004, 08:28 PM
Oh I perfectly know. The problem is that I have cheap answers (Disk costs 1, Swords costs 1, Force is free, Stifle is 1, and so on) to your expensive threats. Sylvan Library isn't necessarily the best thing, though - I do have clocks and if you draw to 4 then Fire plus a Factory hit is a game win.

steppenelf
03-01-2004, 09:33 PM
i have constantly gotten stomped by control and i can attribute it to these factors:
i haven't been with a regular play group in 4 months
hulk decks running scepter
scepter imprinting: fire/ice/ak/terminate
running black in my deck which makes b2b not effective
not running sylvan
not that the lack of these factors would make it an easy matchup, they just make it an utter stomping.

Di
03-01-2004, 09:54 PM
i have constantly gotten stomped by control and i can attribute it to these factors:
i haven't been with a regular play group in 4 months
hulk decks running scepter
scepter imprinting: fire/ice/ak/terminate
running black in my deck which makes b2b not effective
not running sylvan
not that the lack of these factors would make it an easy matchup, they just make it an utter stomping.

Yeah, it's nearly impossible to win under those conditions. However, if you were running black, then I'd assume you ran both Duress and Cabal Therapy, did you not? It'd seem as though they'd work, but they greatly reduce the speed of your deck(casting them means waiting on casting lots of mana acceleration).

But yeah, it messes up Back to Basics, which is the most important card in the sideboard. It comes in almost every match, and when it sees play it wins games all on its own. Simply amazing how badly it destroys decks.

Decks running Scepter will be a problem for more than ATS, they're a problem for everything. Imprinting Fire/Ice is bad news for everything, because it means either your creatures will be destoryed, you're on a clock, or the opponent will be cantripping off Rishadan Port.

steppenelf
03-02-2004, 12:52 AM
ran 4 duress/4 fow, one week i ran cabal therapy instead of force but i was not impressed, too much jank in the meta for therapy.

Di
03-02-2004, 03:29 PM
I don't really have a problem with the Black version, but it takes up slots that I wouldn't want to give up(If I brought in Cabal Therapy too, Stifle would go), and it has a much smaller chance of beating the tougher matchups.

Force of Will is just insane right now(as it always has been for the deck, despite people not believing what I believe. God, I feel like Morpheus). It's much better than Duress or Therapy in here due to it's ability to stop whatever you like whenever you like. Let's see Duress against FCG. We stop 1 card, and Force of Will stops everything. The same case is made for Stifle vs. Cabal Therapy. Therapy can be good, but Stifle hinders a lot of the opponent's stuff, while Therapy can just be crap and miss. Plus, Force of Will is much better with the additional blue cards in Stifle.

69-1069452887
03-05-2004, 12:44 AM
Hi,

My main problem is also control. Basically, I have a lot of trouble resolving a StF if I don't have it in my opening hand and go first. When my StF is countered, I'm left with a lot of semi good creatures, and that's not enough usually. Any true control player will know to counter the Stf and Sylvans. Other than vs. control, I love the deck. But as you guys say, it takes experience. I agree. But I still think that presideboard, the matchup is pretty hard. Anyway, any ideas around this? Thanks.

gregg
03-05-2004, 04:50 AM
That's another reason why I have the Auramancer in my sideboard. I bring it in against people who like to counter the enchantments, because it turns the auramancer into a counterspell, unless they want to keep countering the enchantments, which I can just get back thanks to me throwing my mancer infront of random creatures or w/e or by bouncing it with tradewind.

Di
03-05-2004, 07:32 AM
. But I still think that presideboard, the matchup is pretty hard. Anyway, any ideas around this? Thanks

Oh, of course. I'm pretty sure we've gone through somewhere in the thread the control matchup is insanely hard game 1. It's tough to keep all the creatures on the table without Survival, but Fire/Ice and StP stop them. If Survival resolves, you shouldn't really have too many problems. It's one of the few matchups that you actually want to attack the opponent, because in this scenario, we have to be able to put them on a clock, or they'll get too mich card advantage and own us. If you like, you can add a Xantid Swarm to the maindeck, or even a suprise Back to Basics to catch them off guard. Post-sideboard should be a lot easier though. They have an additional 6-7 enchantments to counter.

ns2973
03-06-2004, 01:02 AM
but they also will have sideboard. I feel like especially diablos thinks this deck has no bad matchup. it is a decent deck when played correctly but it definately has a bad matchup in control. To say anything else honestly is just silly.

Di
03-06-2004, 01:05 AM
but they also will have sideboard. I feel like especially diablos thinks this deck has no bad matchup. it is a decent deck when played correctly but it definately has a bad matchup in control. To say anything else honestly is just silly.

The only matchup that I would consider "bad" for me is Suicide Black, because there's just way too much disruption for me to handle. I rarely squeeze out of that match.

Control is bad for the deck too, but I put in so many bombs from the sideboard it virtually turns the opposite, because the control player can't really board for ATS. Yes, you can put in stuff like Dystopia(Suicide), and you already have maindeck Fire/Ice and maybe Disenchants coming in frm the board and whatnot, but it's not a deck you can "hose" out. It doesn't have any weaknesses like that.

69-1069452887
03-07-2004, 01:34 AM
Hi,

I'm really not sure about Xantid Swarm in MD because the problem is resolving a StF. It could help resolve cards you draw, I suppose, but that changes the way the deck is played. Would it be better to just drop everything you can until you get StF? I guess it would be beneficial to put them on a clock. In that scenario, Xantid would help, and it would probably force a counter at least.

Di
03-07-2004, 01:23 PM
Would it be better to just drop everything you can until you get StF?

No, because then when and if you do draw Survival, you will have to wait a turn or two to draw a creature to start getting the engine going. I'd always hold a creature in my hand unless you're in a situation where you need to play creatures in order to stay alive.

Phusion
03-12-2004, 02:34 PM
I'm curious to know if any of you have played against B/G Ld or know how the match-up would go.

Right now my meta is:

Dragon
Fish(Mono Blue, Fish not wizards)
BG Ld
Goblins
UW that resembles Keeper
Random Blue crap
Random Green crap
Random Red crap

From what you guys have said, ATS should be a good deck for my metagame. It also helps that I'm a pretty good player and I'm definatly leagues ahead of the people I play with (other than the guy playing Dragon), so I can get the hang of playing ATS fairly quickly. I'm just curious about the adjustments needed to beat LD.

103-1077288446
03-12-2004, 02:46 PM
Apart from dragon ats fits right in there. ATS only really doesn't like Dragon of all things but its far from the worst thing in the world since its so hateable.

Also I wouldn't be so confident in your ability to just pick up ATS like that or Survival 2002 just like that. It takes time, you won't get the right plays right in 1 day, it will take months probably for you to even get confterble with it. Just be patient. It will be worth it once you get used to it.

Di
03-12-2004, 03:39 PM
I'm curious to know if any of you have played against B/G Ld or know how the match-up would go.


If for any reason someone would lose that matchup using ATS, they need to quit magic. Land Destruction is one of ATS's easiest matchups, it's unfair. The ATS player has 9 creature that produce mana, Cartographer to bring back lands that are destroyed, Quirion Ranger, which says "No" to the entire deck, and even Tradewind Rider. I've never even lost a game to land destruction, over the course of 1 year.


It also helps that I'm a pretty good player and I'm definatly leagues ahead of the people I play with (other than the guy playing Dragon), so I can get the hang of playing ATS fairly quickly

I have a feeling you'll be eating those words, me boy. One can easily get the "hang" of the deck, but playing the deck correctly is an entirely diferent story.

Phusion
03-12-2004, 04:06 PM
If for any reason someone would lose that matchup using ATS, they need to quit magic. Land Destruction is one of ATS's easiest matchups, it's unfair. The ATS player has 9 creature that produce mana, Cartographer to bring back lands that are destroyed, Quirion Ranger, which says "No" to the entire deck, and even Tradewind Rider. I've never even lost a game to land destruction, over the course of 1 year.


So what you're saying is I have a chance! j/k.

Cool. I'll be proxying it up tonight.



I have a feeling you'll be eating those words, me boy. One can easily get the "hang" of the deck, but playing the deck correctly is an entirely diferent story.


I usually test a deck for 3-4 months. In that time I start with a proxy version and buy and trade my way to a full version. Usually by the time I take it to a tournament I have atleast 1000-2000 games under my belt. Also, I adapt to decks very easily, especially decks like this one where the complexity of the deck comes from a) knowing your deck well enough to know what will get you out of a situation and b) playing well enough to think about things before doing them. This deck fits very well with my style. I won't have the deck mastered, but by the time I play a tournament, I'll have the hang of it.

Phusion
03-14-2004, 01:11 AM
k, traded and got most of the deck. I'll get the rest when I get paid.

A few questions on playing the deck...

1) Ok, in the best opening hand(birds, survival, two land), and assuming I'm not playing discard, what do you normally survival for? I tired out Anger, I tried Roff, and I tried Squee. My spider sense says that Squee would be better, but then you don't have enough mana to get tradewind out or do you? Basically I guess what I'm saying is what is the best idea in that situation.

2) should you mull until you get birds survival or are there other things you look for in a good hand.

I played a MUD deck and got swept 2-0. How does this deck have a great game versus mud? I'm sure this had more to do with how I played the deck and less to do with the deck itself. I'm just looking for tips.

Otherwise, without the Mud deck that showed up to play today this deck is great for the enviornment. Everyone I played that normally plays there couldn't stop it.

Di
03-14-2004, 11:05 AM
1) Ok, in the best opening hand(birds, survival, two land), and assuming I'm not playing discard, what do you normally survival for? I tired out Anger, I tried Roff, and I tried Squee. My spider sense says that Squee would be better, but then you don't have enough mana to get tradewind out or do you? Basically I guess what I'm saying is what is the best idea in that situation.

2) should you mull until you get birds survival or are there other things you look for in a good hand.

I played a MUD deck and got swept 2-0. How does this deck have a great game versus mud? I'm sure this had more to do with how I played the deck and less to do with the deck itself. I'm just looking for tips.

1. It depends on what you already have in play/hand in order to determine what you survival for. The number one card you grab is Anger. He will 8/10 times be the first card you get. Then you get Squee, obviously. If you don't have a fetchland or Taiga, then get Squee first, and worry about Anger after. Rofellos is normally next, if he's paired with Anger. Even if he isn't, he'll most likely be grabbed so he can get you a big mana boost the following turn. From then on it depends on your board position. I can't really offer advise on that, mainly because there are virtually hundreds of situations, but I'm pretty sure you can figure it out on your own, an example being: Playing against Elves, get Goblin Sharpshooter. Playing against Secret Force, get Gilded Drake, playing against Mud, get Wall of Roots and Quirion Ranger. Just figure it out.

2. Any hand containing Survival is most likely a keeper, unless you don't have a land. Playing a Survival on turn 2 without any acceleration was never a bad thing, because you'll most likely win the game from there anyway. Hands that don't contain Survival aren't bad either, as this deck, unlike Survival 2004, it meant to be run off it's creatures, and not solely on Survival of the Fittest. I've won dozens of games just from creatures, mainly Tradewind Rider and Masticore(despite it being a 1-of, I draw it all the time). It's creatures are just strong enough to defend you throughout the entire game.

On comment of MUD: You're a new ATS player, so it's not very likely you'll be winning against a deck like Mud just yet. That's fine though, just remember some tips:

-If you have a hand qith Quirion Ranger, keep it, regardless of what else is there(unless it's 6 land). At the $600 Amrod's tourny last week, game 1 I opened a hand with 5 Land, Quirion Ranger, and Goblin Sharpshooter. Ranger alone stomped him. Quirion Ranger negates Winter Orb, Tangle Wire, and helps against Smokestack. Pretty tough for a 1/1 Elf.

-Wall of Roots is one of your best friends. He adds for mana when he is tapped, nuff said. All the other acceleration are your best friends too.

-Gilded Drake is awesome. Take a Welder, win the game.

-Tradewind Rider/Uktabi Orangutan(after establishing manabase). Nuff said.

Mud isn't a tough matchup, or at least shouldn't be because of the speed of your mana-acceleration. All 11 of it(4 Bird, 4 Wall, 1 Rofellos, 2 Ranger) only cost 1-2 mana, so they come out very easily and very early, which put a toll on the MUD player's lock components. You also have Stifle in the maindeck to stop Chalice of the Void, or Smokestack with a couple counters on it(absolutely devastating). It can be rough to play against, but as long as you're able to drop something within the first couple turns, you should be fine.

Phusion
03-14-2004, 12:12 PM
heh, well my friends throughly hate this deck now. I played them last night too and we played 2v2. It was Elfball + Hermatic Crab vs. Me(ats) and Elves. My friend powered out a second turn Coat of arms with Priest of Titania. So my next turn I played Ranger and said go. Then we emptied his whole hand next turn with Titania and Ranger playing out Poacher, Ambush Commander, and Wellwisher and said go.

Needless to say now that none of his creatures were burnable and now my ranger is fimrly in play (With Survival) my friends gave it up.

But here were the match-ups I played last night if other people were curious.


B/U - I looked for hands with brainstorms or multiple survivals. Those were the two hands that seemed to work best versus a first turn duress. After the first game he knew what was going on, so all of his therapies were aimed at Survival. Unforunatly for him, the one time that he DID get to therapy for it...I had a force.

Games played 3, Games won 2.
Match up: First game favors him if he has a duress and I don't have the cards to either a) protect it or b) make up for it. Games two and three would be mine due to Choke.

B/G LD - You were right, this is pretty much an autoloss for him. His ld spells don't hurt me as much as I thought they might. What does hurt me is his disruption...but in the 6 games we played it didn't seem to affect me as much.

Games played 6 Games won 4 I lost both to mana screw. I drew two lands those games and in one they were 5 turns apart. Good game for the ld player.
Matchup: Game one is mine. Games two and three swing closer to even as he brings in Engineered Plagues (I've seen his board too many times). Gilded Drake should shine in this match up, as his win condition is a huge creature and he usually only casts one.

U/G Forgotten Ancient - This match up was hard the first few times I played it, but after I'd played the deck some I noticed later it was a lot easier. I thought about it some and mulled down to 5 to get a survival. Once I had that and cast it when he couldn't counter, his game was done. I put genesis in the yard and got roffollous. Once I could keep recurring him and eat his countermagic, I was set. He got me down to 3 before I recovered using spike feeder. It was kinda scary because he was using triskilions to do it...

Games played 4 Games won 2

U/G Madness - This is another match up where I thought it was harder until I realized I was keeping bad hands. Once I got the second turn Survival in play, I was set for the rest of the game.

Games played 3 Games won 1

Elves - ha.
Games played 3 Games won 3
Goblin Sharpshooter Goblin Sharpshooter Goblin Sharpshooter.

Fluctuator Slide: Me....-.-
Games played 1. Games won...1

B/R Shrapnel Blast?
Games played 2 Games won 2

You see where this is going...

Like I said...most of the decks in my enviornment are crap. So long as I was able to get a survival or tradewind out, I was usually winning that game.

The only losses I saw the whole night were 2 to the U/G Forgotten Ancient deck, 2 to the Madness deck,2 to B/G, and the 2 to MUD.

There ya go.

juventus
03-15-2004, 11:47 AM
B/U - I looked for hands with brainstorms or multiple survivals. Those were the two hands that seemed to work best versus a first turn duress. After the first game he knew what was going on, so all of his therapies were aimed at Survival. Unforunatly for him, the one time that he DID get to therapy for it...I had a force.
does this work? According to the laws of probability the more you "look" the lower the chances of "finding" what you want. The chances of getting two survivals is very low (less than 5%)

Phusion
03-15-2004, 12:09 PM
True, but keeping a hand with one survival is very risky versus a deck with discard. Losing your survival before you can cast it is a very bad thing.

I kept two hands where they didn't have one or the other. One I was lucky enough to topdeck another survival after his duress and the other I had a force of will. Really what you are looking for is a way to defend against a first turn duress.

Carlos El Salvador
03-15-2004, 03:01 PM
You do know that is the reason for brainstorm, it hides cards. One of the best cards in 1.5 because it can do that from duress, another one of the best cards in 1.5.

Phusion
03-15-2004, 09:44 PM
You do know that is the reason for brainstorm, it hides cards. One of the best cards in 1.5 because it can do that from duress, another one of the best cards in 1.5.
I figured everyone knew that...

I thought he was asking me why I would look for certain cards in my library in hands...

103-1077288446
03-16-2004, 10:01 AM
Primers are cool


3 Brainstorm
Reason: Brainstorm allows you to not only shuffle your dead or non useful spells with Fetch lands or Survival but also allows you to keep from drawing to many lands. Like I said before you really don't want to many lands in play, usually 3-4 and want to shuffle the others back for more useful cards. Brainstorm also digs 3 deep into your deck with Survival out to get you a second creature in your hand which you sometimes don't always have to further your development. Also due to being blue Brainstorm is pitch able.


Reading them is also cool, they explain things.


True, but keeping a hand with one survival is very risky versus a deck with discard. Losing your survival before you can cast it is a very bad thing.

I kept two hands where they didn't have one or the other. One I was lucky enough to topdeck another survival after his duress and the other I had a force of will. Really what you are looking for is a way to defend against a first turn duress.

Thats why you play 4 Tradewinds, 4 Survivals, 3 Grove, 2 Sylvan, 4 Force of Will, 1 Idealist, (or -2 Tradewinds -1 Sylvan +3 Brainstorms), so that you don't lose to discard. Also you get 2-3 Compost post SB which just ends them. They can't deal with Tradewind at all, what does black have vs bounce your world? Nothing cept maybe disk or 5 edicts or Dystophia your world + Edict your Tradewind. Still You also have Idealist / Grove to get back or get another Survival. ATS traditionaly only draws Survival 40% of the time, Recsur 2K4 or whatever draws it 70-90% somewere in there. Due to this its unlilikely that you will get multiple Survival draws in ATS, as your likely not to draw one most of the time. In Recsur2k4 you almost always get it, even in multiples vs discard. Goind 2nd verses discard still lets them Duress your Survival w/ or without Brainstorm. Also you have something called Force of Will which says no or something when they discard you. The deck is more resilent than you give it credit for. For the most part you have played vs some really bad decks judging by your breakdown that you shouldn't lose a game to, let alone several. Try the deck verses more decks that have higher quality before you try to change it. It has 4-5 Years of evolution and testing behind it, it does work, it just doesn't work perfectly at the begining because of play errors and lack of experience with it. The deck is fine as I said to you in msg. Just give it time before you tweek with it as thats the worst thing you can possibly do. One card change dramaticaly alters the makeup of the deck let alone 5. The deck is as tight spot wise as is humanly posible in any deck in the format or magic in general except maybe Keeper in T1.

Also judging by your play in the above breakdown you agresively mulligan to Survival when ATS isn't designed to do that. Its designed to get Survival OR Tradewind in its opening 7. If you want to play consistent Survivals play the deck list I have in the primer.

Mike
Learning how to spell new words wrong every day.



Edited By glow on 1079446244

Phusion
03-16-2004, 01:07 PM
heh, this is my fault.

I'm definatly NOT disappointed by any of the results. Any game I lost I chaulked up to inexperience with the deck. I haven't changed a single card nor would I. I'm far past the days of "Wow I lost...it had to be the deck." In fact, I'm more the type of player that pinpoints mistakes I made in order to figure out why I lost.

For instance, against B/U.
- I kept two bad hands. In one I got lucky. In the other I didn't.
- I didn't shuffle well enough in that game and drew 7 lands.
- I pitched Gilded Drake to protect my Brainstorm which drew into lands. Had I kept the drake I could have taken control of his flyer that was digging into me and had an active tradewind to bounce the drake to my hand. I didn't...and so I lost.

What I was saying though, was that the best sort of hands against him seemed to be those that had a second turn survival with a way to protect the hand.

I didn't play any sideboard games because I haven't played enough games with the deck to know how to sideboard with it yet. Being that blue is more popular than non basic lands here, my sideboard would probably be something like this:

2 Back to Basic
3 Choke

I haven't got the rest of it.

I'm off to work!

69-1069452887
03-31-2004, 11:54 PM
Hi,

I like the Xantid Swarm idea; it looks very plausible. I just might end up stocking 4 in the board b/c of all of the stupid monocolor control running around here. BtB is not as helpful there, but choke works fine. I'm fairly confident against the bad aggro, but losing to bad control is not good. I thought about maindecking them, but they're pretty useless against aggro, but I suppose they could be StF fodder. What would you suggest taking out of the MD? Meta:

Random combo (slow enough; fundamental around: 6-7)
Random control (a lot of monocolor, and some random stuff)
Random aggro (mostly goblin decks w/ goblins I've never heard of)
Random randomness (what im afraid of losing to)

Thanks.

Di
04-01-2004, 12:07 AM
There can't really be a good answer for your questions, EnIgMaTiK, because I have no idea what decks they are(for example, what are these combo decks). In order to figure out what to remove, we have to know what exactly you're going up against. The only choice I see from the information you've given us is the maindeck Cartographer.

69-1069452887
04-01-2004, 12:35 AM
Hi,

Im sorry. Should have been more specific, but its kinda hard.

Combo like (trix (rarely), im not afraid of this category)
Aggro (mostly stuff like bad stompy, budget sligh, basic tap-lands-and-play-goblins decks, pure burn, not a problem here either)
Control( pyschatog (not like hulk, jsut pure U/B; parfait; oath; reanimator, budget BBS (if thats possible), weak landstill, and random decks that run UU counterspell, with a few forces here and there; a lot of permission though-their card drawing drowned me when i played FEB)

Thanks.

BoTS
06-15-2004, 11:53 PM
Hi, where I play ATS there is a lot of landstill (something like 4 - 6 people playing it each week, U/R,U/R/w,U/B versions are all present). What I was wondering was wheter or not I should use Tsabo's Web over B2B in sideboard. I know B2B is good but every time I cast it it just seems like it hurts me alot too even with the ranger out.

bigguyinblack
06-16-2004, 01:50 AM
If Landstill deck's are ruling your meta nothing sez you can't run both Tsabos' Web and BtB's.

Di
06-16-2004, 07:29 AM
I know B2B is good but every time I cast it it just seems like it hurts me alot too even with the ranger out.


BtB hurts you, obviously. It hurts 5 out of 12 lands in the deck. Then add in mana acceleration. However, I would try to compare that to the fact that it hits all but 2-3 lands in LandStill. Then take Tsabo's Web, which only hits like 6 lands, and still allows them to cast stuff like Disk, counter, removal, etc.

Also, if you have that much Landstill in the metagame, I have no idea why you are playing this deck.

ns2973
06-16-2004, 10:21 AM
Also, if you have that much Landstill in the metagame, I have no idea why you are playing this deck.
Absolutely correct. It's a meta call. Now on the b2b thing, yes it hurts you but it hurts them much much worse. Not only does it completely lock down landstill if it hits, it just wins against random jank like keeper and the like. Saying b2b is bad for ats is like saying sphere of resistance is bad in mud, you have more resources, so you are really only limiting them in the end.

juventus
06-16-2004, 11:16 AM
If you have lots of landstill in your meta, and you really want to play ATS. Your best bet is to side in either chokes or B2B and Sylvan Library. Sylvan Library dropped turn 2 is game against landstill (usually).

Di
06-16-2004, 11:45 AM
Actually, in your metagame, you should be playing UG Madness, with Back to Basics either in the sideboard, maindeck, or even both. Madness is pretty much a natural foil to the deck, and has all the necessary elements able to win.

Caligula Superfly
06-21-2004, 07:12 PM
Hey, i was just reading through the ATS thread and noticed that nobody mentioned Eternal Witness. Its like cartographer and monk Idealist Wrapped up into one neat little package, then made better. (exept for the one toughness, makes sharpshooters hurt more). But regardless I know im going to use it, howabout you?

Lord McCaffrey
06-21-2004, 07:18 PM
Hey, i was just reading through the ATS thread and noticed that nobody mentioned Eternal Witness. Its like cartographer and monk Idealist Wrapped up into one neat little package, then made better. (exept for the one toughness, makes sharpshooters hurt more). But regardless I know im going to use it, howabout you?

LOL. I think the reason noone mentioned is because they all just assumed that everyone would be struck with the blinding awesomeness of it. I think the only question is whether to stick to 1, just as a SotF target, or to use 2 or more to increase the resiliency of the deck. Its probably safe to just stick to 1 tho.

Di
06-21-2004, 07:46 PM
Hey, i was just reading through the ATS thread and noticed that nobody mentioned Eternal Witness.

It's true, nobody has mentioned Eternal Witness in the ATS thread. This ATS thread. There have been a few other Survival discussions, involving ATS, S2k4, etc etc, that have had intense discussion about the card.

Trust me, everyone is perfectly aware of the card :)

CavernNinja
07-08-2004, 03:30 PM
Why not orcish settlers in ATS?

You make lots of mana and I would think that destroying lots of land with it would be helpful. Is it just that you can't use it consitently or are there better cards? And avalanche riders? With Genesis you can go the land denial root without having to worry about tradewind being shut down by stupid stuff like Cursed Totem. I understand you can only use him once every other turn, but also wouldn't Riders help to compliment your lock?

Di
07-08-2004, 03:45 PM
Why not orcish settlers in ATS?

Lol, you must be a mind reader. Orcish Settlers has been talked about between some of other hardcore ATS players and myself for quite some time now. I've tested him for a long time, and just came down to the conclusion that he sucked in almost every situation. First off, he's red, so it's tougher to cast him. Then he's rather poor in topdeck mode, because in most situations of topdeck mode, you're either a. losing badly to LandStill, or are b. you have all the mana to use him, but are still staring at a host of threats, renduring it pointless. And Finally, by the time you'd have enough mana to make him useful, you'd already be winning the game through the traditional lock.


You make lots of mana and I would think that destroying lots of land with it would be helpful. Is it just that you can't use it consitently or are there better cards? And avalanche riders? With Genesis you can go the land denial root without having to worry about tradewind being shut down by stupid stuff like Cursed Totem. I understand you can only use him once every other turn, but also wouldn't Riders help to compliment your lock?

Avalanche Riders isn't a bad call, but there's really no need for it in this deck. If there are lands I want to destroy, they are either killing me before Riders is even cast, or the Rider will be Mana Drained into a free Disk. Plus, I don't like Riders simply on the fact that it isn't fitting well into the theme of the deck. ATS is a very controlling, defensive deck. Riders is an aggresive card. Of course, you could make similiar statements for cards like Masticore, but then you have to take into account the actual purpose of the card itself in the deck.

Joe Eigo
07-18-2004, 10:16 AM
I have a question on the Spore Frog/Genesis lock:
almost every deck has creature disruption. so what you do if fcg destroys the frog via incinerator end of turn ? or any other deck that kills it end of turn. it seems a little fragile to me..
how often do you effectively get the combo to work without it beeing disrupted?

bigguyinblack
07-18-2004, 12:07 PM
Yes there are deck's that can kill the Frog EOT but there are some that can't or at least not with any consistancy. Genesis is in the deck for lot's of reson's beyond bringing back Spore Frog. I have locked many deck's down due to them having no way to remove the frog so I think he deserves his spot.

Mr. Anderson
07-18-2004, 03:15 PM
Also you have to realize that you to run counters. So outside of like gempalm from fcg you have a decent shot at stopping the removal. At 7/10 like got the frogie genisis lock out like 3 times and rode it until I could develop more and then smash face, because when I play ATS it smashes face :laugh: .

frogboy
07-18-2004, 04:14 PM
Mr. Anderson Posted on July 18 2004,11:15
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also you have to realize that you to run counters. So outside of like the two uncounterable removal spells they have, plus the four tutors for it, plus four other creatures that can kill it assuming they resolve, on top of all the other must counters they run, you have a decent shot at stopping the removal.

Fixed.

Di
07-18-2004, 08:59 PM
Actually, Frog isn't supposed to be fixed against FCG as a "lock". If you're able to do the frog lock against FCG for more than one turn, then it is assumed that you've already won. Plus, game one isn't focused on the frog lock, it's much more focused on Masticore, Tradewind, etc. Masticore is the reason I've won most of my first games against FCG(well...that and Stifle). I've actually find the ability for FCG to combo off successfully a rarity now a days, and if they aren't comboing, as in, not having a Food Chain in play. Without Food Chain, they are a bit slower, and gives me time to develop my mana and send Masticore through the floodgates. Game 2 is fun as well, because Silent Arbiter does a hell of a job against the deck.

Knight
08-04-2004, 12:51 PM
Hi, i changed my ATS deck around a little bit, i'd like to know what you guys think.. especially diablo.

Draw:
4x Brainstorm
4x Impulse
2x Sylvan Library

10x Draw


Creatures:
4x Tradewind Rider
4x Wall of Roots
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Basking Rootwalla (awesome against landstill)
2x Squee
1x Anger
1x Genesis
1x Quirion Ranger
1x Rofellos, Lanowar Emissary
1x Seedborn Muse
1x Spore Frog

24x Creatures

Other:
4x Survival of the Fittest
4x Force of Will

8x Other


Land:
4x Tropical Island
3x Windswept Heath
3x Wooded Foothills
1x Taiga
6x Forest

Carlos El Salvador
08-04-2004, 02:09 PM
A few things:

You have no utility, that is the largest strength of ATS, is the ability to muster up an answer ot ANY situation. You have no creature kill, artifac or enchantment Kill... You also lose to deed thanks to cutting out stifles. This deck is awful.

Di
08-04-2004, 03:10 PM
You have no utility, that is the largest strength of ATS, is the ability to muster up an answer ot ANY situation. You have no creature kill, artifac or enchantment Kill... You also lose to deed thanks to cutting out stifles. This deck is awful.

Agreed. The deck's ability to win comes mainly from it's utility cards. How in the hell do you ever expect to win with your decklist? Oh wow, you can bounce a permanent every turn, but that won't get you very far. Sure, Spore Frog can stop combat damage, but what if it's destroyed end of turn, and you can have army staring down on you? You need creature removal, and you need enchantment and artifact removal. This is why ATS is good, because it can deal with everything that it sees.

I couldn't even really consider your deck ATS in a sense, because it doesn't do what the deck is supposed to be doing...

Knight
08-04-2004, 05:50 PM
Alright, how about this :

Hi, i changed my ATS deck around a little bit, i'd like to know what you guys think.. especially diablo.

Draw:
4x Brainstorm
2x Sylvan Library

6x Draw


Creatures:
4x Tradewind Rider
4x Wall of Roots
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Basking Rootwalla (awesome against landstill)
1x Squee
1x Anger
1x Genesis
2x Quirion Ranger
1x Rofellos, Lanowar Emissary
1x Seedborn Muse
1x Spore Frog
1x Mystic Snake
1x Viridian Zealot

24x Creatures

Other:
4x Survival of the Fittest
4x Force of Will
3x Stifle

8x Other


Land:
4x Tropical Island
3x Windswept Heath
3x Wooded Foothills
1x Taiga
6x Forest

17x Land

SB:

3x Back to Basics
1x Stifle
1x Viridian Zealot
2x Tormond's Crypt
1x Duplicant
4x Xantid Swarm (landstill is a problem in my area)
3x Eternal Witness

jeanmid
08-04-2004, 06:01 PM
Would Troll in the SB help against the landstill matchup?

Carlos El Salvador
08-04-2004, 07:06 PM
What is basking rootwalla for?! He;s not good VS anything... how is he good VS landstill?

Sims
08-04-2004, 07:41 PM
I guess he blocks a Factory under standstill? God I honestly have no clue. I don't even see him as an asset in any of the matchups that ATS is gunna run into.

Di
08-05-2004, 12:57 AM
Knight-

If Landstill is a problem in your meta, you should NOT be playing this deck. ATS doesn't have a favorable matchup against it, so it's pointless.

Also, if you still wish to play the deck in your meta, why is Eternal Witness not in the maindeck, which should already be maindeck to begin with?


4x Basking Rootwalla (awesome against landstill)


Wrong. Landstill doesn't care about a crappy 1/1.


Honestly, the best advice I can give is take the most recent decklist on here, which if it isn't posted PM me, and use that.

MattH
08-06-2004, 01:20 PM
It's because he thinks that playing a spell via madness isn't going to trigger Standstill. He is wrong.

Knight
08-08-2004, 04:56 PM
... k rootwallas are out.. i guess that was kinda a stupid idea.. but honestly, did you guys ever think about 1 maindecked gaea's herald? its only 1 spot, and its a really good card.

troopatroop
08-08-2004, 09:28 PM
ok knight... lets examine that idea

you're asking us to make room in ats for gaea's herold. I guess you're logic is that in adding the herold you will be able to survival for it and all of your guys will become uncounterable.
Its not as good as you think it is. You will only reliably see the herold when you have a survival in play, and against control, it isnt likely to happen. Even better, whenever survival hits play against control... you should win. You get genesis and recur the shyt out of them. the herold really wouldn't do much, I doubt its got a spot here. And even more of a predicament....

what do you cut? the maindeck is EXTREMELY tight and theres no room for new cards. It's almost a deck set in stone... except I've kinda looked at +1 stifle -1 FOW, but those cards serve the same purpose in general...

ok I'm ranting.... sorry. Knight, sorry but theres no room for herold here.

BoTS
08-24-2004, 11:38 PM
Diablos, what exactly is the current build you are running? I saw part of the deck at the $1000 Amrod's, but I'm unclear as to what you cut for the witnesses and such.

Di
08-25-2004, 11:01 PM
Lol, I just realized I haven't posted the newer list, despite sending it to around 30 people. Anywho, here it is:

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Stifle
1 Back to Basics

4 Tradewind Rider
2 Eternal Witness
2 Quirion Ranger
1 Seedborn Muse
1 Gilded Drake
1 Mystic Snake

1 Anger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Genesis

1 Masticore
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Elvish Lyrist
1 Uktabi Orangutan
1 Spore Frog

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Wall of Roots
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
4 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
7 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
3 Back to Basics
2 Dense Foliage
1 Stifle
1 Spike Feeder
2 Naturalize
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Silent Arbiter
2 Chill

Comments:

-Many people didn't realize I didn't have Back to Basics maindeck. It's been there for quite a while, actually, but I think I may have forgot to mention it to anyone(which is accidental). However, currently the one Back to Basics maindeck has a chance of being removed. Decline of LandStill and other control is making it let and les useful, although every tournament I play in it holds up it's weight, so it'll most likely stay in.

-Wood Elf is being tested currently, but the maindeck is extremely tight. I'm toying with the removal of one Wall of Roots, but I fear the removal of it will make the aggro game a little tougher, and I'm unsure if it's worth that to give me a Taiga, which in this case will be a situational play(need Survival). I'm leaning towards not using Wood Elf, but more testing will give me the answer.

-The sideboard is constantly changing. With the meta currently undergoing fluctuation, it's rather difficult to keep the sideboard the way it is. Other cards that have been flipping in and out of the sideboard are Energy Flux and Tranquil Domain, and there are a few more to come. We just need the format to come at a halt for a little while, like it was a few months ago, which gave me the ability to determine the proper sideboard.

-The deck is a terrific metagame choice if aggro continues to increase. The deck has a great game against almost every aggro deck, and if it doesn't, Dense Foliage solves that problem(ask Garv, he knows). It's WelderMud game is still really strong, and it's Dragon game is getting better.


So yeah, enjoy.

juventus
08-25-2004, 11:21 PM
I seriously can't see wood elf being any good because if you have 3 mana and you need a land, eternal witness can do the same job too.

Also, why are there no life gaining creatures in there? I always saw them as a big part of the deck. A lone spike feeder or baloth seem strong to me.

The random Back to Basics also seems bad to me with only 4 brainstorm to find it.

Finally, is it really worth it to take up an extra slot with lyrist/monkey? Why not just play zealot and save a slot (or put the deck down to 60 cards).

please keep in mind that these are just random thoughts from an inferior ATS player :)

bigguyinblack
08-25-2004, 11:38 PM
You won't always's get a fetch land early and there are usually better target's for the witness then land unless your opponent nuked your Tiaga. Wood elf does help up the forest count for Rofellos but every time my opponent drops a first turn Tiaga I'm happy to have my Wall of Roots.

ATS is good enough against aggro that the Spike Feeder can usually sit in the SB unless your meta is very aggro heavy.

BtB doesn't have to hit turn 2 to be effective and nothing sez you can't Witness a Brainstorm to keep looking.

Zealot was discussed earlier. It has poor synergy in the deck because it can't be bounced to use it's effect again and it's twice the cost to use and activate then Elvish Lyrist during Genesis recursion. Very few deck's abuse both artifacts's and enchantment's equally.

Di
08-25-2004, 11:40 PM
I seriously can't see wood elf being any good because if you have 3 mana and you need a land, eternal witness can do the same job too.


It isn't there for acceleration, Wood Elf's purpose is to be able to "survival" for a Taiga. Occasionally, the deck doesn't draw Taiga/fetchland when we want to, so Wood Elf would be able to get it for me.


Also, why are there no life gaining creatures in there? I always saw them as a big part of the deck. A lone spike feeder or baloth seem strong to me.

There aren't any in the maindeck, but a Spike Feeder is in the board. Feeder can go in the slot of maindeck Back to Basics if lots of red is around.


The random Back to Basics also seems bad to me with only 4 brainstorm to find it.

It was added as another card to play against Landstill/control game one. That's the strongest card for this deck to use against Landstill, so I gave it a shot in the maindeck, and it hasn't disappointed me yet.


Finally, is it really worth it to take up an extra slot with lyrist/monkey? Why not just play zealot and save a slot (or put the deck down to 60 cards).

Zealot costs four to kill something. Uktabi costs three, and has strong synergy with Tradewind Rider, which is great for the WMud matchup. Uktabi could easily be Scavenger Folk, but the synergy w/ Tradewind against Welder Mud is too strong. Elvish Lyrist is much better than Viridian Zealot in matchups like Dragon, which that fact right there makes it a stornger choice.

juventus
08-25-2004, 11:55 PM
It isn't there for acceleration, Wood Elf's purpose is to be able to "survival" for a Taiga. Occasionally, the deck doesn't draw Taiga/fetchland when we want to, so Wood Elf would be able to get it for me.


Ok I forgot that taiga/fetch might not be in the yard. But still, the deck never before had a card that searched for taiga, and now it has a semi-searcher in eternal witness, can't you just be satisfied with the fact that you won't get taiga 100% of the time you get survival?


There aren't any in the maindeck, but a Spike Feeder is in the board. Feeder can go in the slot of maindeck Back to Basics if lots of red is around.


yea sounds good for my meta. I'd take out the B2B for a spike feeder.


Zealot costs four to kill something. Uktabi costs three, and has strong synergy with Tradewind Rider, which is great for the WMud matchup. Uktabi could easily be Scavenger Folk, but the synergy w/ Tradewind against Welder Mud is too strong. Elvish Lyrist is much better than Viridian Zealot in matchups like Dragon, which that fact right there makes it a stornger choice.

but is it worth wasting a slot? Also when you do not get survival, the zealot is much stronger. Finally, cutting the deck to 60 cards really helps because it lets you get more birds/survivals in your opening hand.

BoTS
08-26-2004, 12:00 AM
I really like the maindeck BtB. The day after the 7/10 tourney I ran two maindeck (I think I may have cut a stifle or the fourth brainstorm I don't remember that well) and they were amazing for me. It made my round one dragon matchup many times better, and other matchups throughout the day. Is there a chance of upping it to two, or is one good enough?

bigguyinblack
08-26-2004, 12:04 AM
Also if your feeling up to it you could address a problem many people (including myself) have with the deck. The deck is so tight that while what to put in is usually an obvious choice, What to take out rarely is. Would you be willing to post some suggested sideboard plans with the current build vs some of the major deck's such as FCG, Mud, Dragon, Landstill...

Di
08-26-2004, 12:42 AM
Ok I forgot that taiga/fetch might not be in the yard. But still, the deck never before had a card that searched for taiga, and now it has a semi-searcher in eternal witness, can't you just be satisfied with the fact that you won't get taiga 100% of the time you get survival?

Um...no. That's like saying "My deck can win on turn two, but I'm happy winning on turn six". If ATS is able to go crazy using Anger, which is a lot better than waiting without haste, then by God I want to do it every time I can.


I really like the maindeck BtB. The day after the 7/10 tourney I ran two maindeck (I think I may have cut a stifle or the fourth brainstorm I don't remember that well) and they were amazing for me. It made my round one dragon matchup many times better, and other matchups throughout the day. Is there a chance of upping it to two, or is one good enough?


Back to Basics won me the Dragon matchup against peter_rotten at the Amrod's tourny a few weeks ago. I'm beginning to have a love/hate relationship with it right now though, due its uselessness in a few matchups.


Also if your feeling up to it you could address a problem many people (including myself) have with the deck. The deck is so tight that while what to put in is usually an obvious choice, What to take out rarely is. Would you be willing to post some suggested sideboard plans with the current build vs some of the major deck's such as FCG, Mud, Dragon, Landstill...

I'm not in the mood for typing a lot more right now, so I'd basically just follow the primer, only with an updated sideboard(the one I posted above).

BoTS
08-26-2004, 01:34 AM
Back to Basics won me the Dragon matchup against peter_rotten at the Amrod's tourny a few weeks ago. I'm beginning to have a love/hate relationship with it right now though, due its uselessness in a few matchups.

granted it may be bad in certain matchups, at the very least it serves as additional Force fodder. I personally love the card, ecspecially in a deck that can run under it despite the fact that over half of the lands are nonbasic.

bigguyinblack
08-27-2004, 12:38 PM
I'm not in the mood for typing a lot more right now, so I'd basically just follow the primer, only with an updated sideboard(the one I posted above).

I understand not wanting to type up a bunch of sideboard plans, But the primer isn't much help in these matter's.
In many matchup's you removed the 2 Sylvan Library's to make room for more useful card's but now that they have been replaced by a 4th Brainstorm and a 2nd Eternal Witness neither of which I would want to take out it make's SBing even harder.
For example in the FCG match up you suggested +1 Stifle, +2 Crawlspace(now Silent Arbiter), -1 Uktabi Orangutan, -2 Sylvan Library. But now you have 2 Chill's and a Sideboarded Spike Feeder to combat the deck as well. So that's 2 card's out (1 Uktabi Orangutan, 1 BtB) and 6 card's in.

Perhaps it should be Sideboarded like this:
-1 BtB, -1 Uktabi Orangutan, -1 Elvish Lyrist, -1 Mystic Snake
+1 Stifle, +1 Spike Feeder, +2 Silent Arbiter

The Chill's would be nice but with no way to get them dependably and no room for them it may be better to concentrate on the Arbiter + Tradewind lock.

Di
08-27-2004, 04:26 PM
Ahh, I forgot the fact that the deck changed, so sideboarding was different. Don't yell at me, I was tired. Now that I just woke up(roughly 3pm), I'm ready to type a bit.


The Chill's would be nice but with no way to get them dependably and no room for them it may be better to concentrate on the Arbiter + Tradewind lock.

Chill flatout stops them from comboing, that's why it's there. It gives me enough time so I'm actually able to cast the Tradewind and Silent Arbiter. Anywho, here are the sideboarding for current matchups that you asked:

FCG:
-1 Back to Basics, -1 Uktabi Orangutan, -1 Gilded Drake, -1 Mystic Snake, -1 Brainstorm, -1 Eternal Witness
+2 Chill, +2 Silent Arbiter, +1 Stifle, +1 Spike Feeder

In this matchup, Elvish Lyrist has to stay in so you have a better chance of stopping the turn 1 Goblin Lackey. Removing a Brainstorm and an Eternal Witness aren't too harmful to the deck replacing them with stronger cards. Actually, I find myself boarding Brainstorms out a few times per tournament.

LandStill:

-1 Elvish Lyrist, -1 Spore Frog, -1 Goblin Sharpshooter, -2 Stifle, -1 Wall of Roots
+3 Back to Basics, +2 Dense Foliage, +1 Naturalize

I could sideboard in the 2nd Naturalize, but I really don't like doing it, as there's lack of cards to toss out. The other card to remove is Gilded Drake, and Gilded Drake is kept in ONLY if they are using Exalted Angel. If not, toss him out for Naturalize.

Dragon:

-1 Uktabi Orangutan, -1 Gilded Drake, -1 Spore Frog, -2 Wall of Roots, -1 Mystic Snake, -1 Brainstorm
+1 Stifle, +2 Tormod's Crypt, +2 Naturalize, +2 Back to Basics

I think this is obvious.

Welder Mud:
-1 Elvish Lyrist, -1 Goblin Sharpshooter, -1 Spore Frog, -1 Mystic Snake, -1 Back to Basics
+2 Naturalize, +1 Stifle, +2 Energy Flux(explained below)

Remember when I said there were some changing slots in the sideboard? Well, half the time Energy Flux goes in one of those slots. I've decided to cut the Back to Basics plan against Welder Mud, because part of the deck's strength is being able to operate while tapped down(see: Tangle Wire, Winter Orb), and Energy Flux does a hell of a lot better job keeping them in check than BtB will.

Currently, the sideboard fluctuation cards are Back to Basics and Chill. They keep on going in and out for other stuff for metagaming.

CavernNinja
08-27-2004, 05:33 PM
I heard mention of Wood Elf, but what about Wirewood Guardian, isn't he a little bit more effecient than Wood Elf is? Finding your taiga for only 2 instead of 2G.

Di
08-27-2004, 05:37 PM
I heard mention of Wood Elf, but what about Wirewood Guardian, isn't he a little bit more effecient than Wood Elf is? Finding your taiga for only 2 instead of 2G.

Wood Elf is also acceleration, putting the land into play immidiately. If I play a land before Guardian is cycled, then I'd have to wait again, which would be annoying. Plus, if it comes to it, I could thin the deck like crazy using Tradewind+Wood Elf, just like ElfNail did in T2.

juventus
08-27-2004, 09:38 PM
I heard mention of Wood Elf, but what about Wirewood Guardian, isn't he a little bit more effecient than Wood Elf is? Finding your taiga for only 2 instead of 2G.

Wood Elf is also acceleration, putting the land into play immidiately. If I play a land before Guardian is cycled, then I'd have to wait again, which would be annoying. Plus, if it comes to it, I could thin the deck like crazy using Tradewind+Wood Elf, just like ElfNail did in T2.
I agree with cavern ninja, costing one less mana to me is more important then anything else.

Di
08-27-2004, 09:55 PM
I agree with cavern ninja, costing one less mana to me is more important then anything else.


In most cases, yes, less mana=good. But Wood Elf is acceleration, and immidiate play of Taiga, which is most important. I tested Wirewood Guardian when it first came out, and I was unimpressed with the card, because it isn't like Eternal Dragon. Either way, neither of them will likely make the cut.

CavernNinja
08-28-2004, 02:02 PM
If you set up Wood Elf-Tradewind in a serious game you're my hero. It's stupidly slow in Elf'n'Nail and everyone of their forests are worth 2 or 3 mana a piece which makes Wood Elf free to play needing lots of creatures for tradewind it becomes even slower.

AngryTroll
08-31-2004, 10:22 PM
Why did the sylvan libraries leave the deck?

CavernNinja
09-01-2004, 12:19 AM
Because they were too slow and seemed very unecessary. I've been playing the deck without Sylvan's and have never missed them. The slots went to things that would help to thin out the draws in other ways like Wood Elves.

LOLinger
09-01-2004, 05:06 AM
Edit: Deleted stupid stuff in the face of turn 1-3 kills from belcher and others.

[Some obviously sad personal input: I will miss my Illusionary Masks like mad :-(((( ]

Athos
09-01-2004, 06:34 PM
Edit: Deleted stupid stuff in the face of turn 1-3 kills from belcher and others.

[Some obviously sad personal input: I will miss my Illusionary Masks like mad :-(((( ]
Me too man. I've been playin that deck for a year and a half in the Venguer version. That came from nowhere, as the deck isn't even all that great. :( I think Bazaar and Workshop were the only bannable cards in "New 1.5," With Crop Rotation and others unbannable. That's what most people wanted. :(

AngryTroll
09-02-2004, 05:44 PM
So, at first, this deck, UG, and Zompy were the best in the new format. Then combo was where it was at, but now people are saying that combo might not be as fast as they appear, and a single stifle or force will kill them.....

Is this deck THE deck to play after the rotation? It is supposed to have a really good game against agro, and agro and combo will probobly be what we see. CotV in the sideboard, with FoW and stifle main, should hold down combo. Can this deck deal with super fast agro? White lightning with enlightened tutor and moxen, sstraight goblins, straight red burn?

What can be done to make this deck a huge force in the metagame?

Zilla
09-04-2004, 03:39 AM
Moved to Open Forum. -Zilla

Lord McCaffrey
09-04-2004, 11:33 AM
I wonder if Enlightened Tutor would be worth a splash, for an S2K4 approach. It's much faster and more efficient than Stirling Grove It would give you more consistent early Survivals, as well as access to a powerfull selection of toolbox cards like MD COP:Red/Worship, Seal of Cleansing, MD B2B and Null Rod. The problems of course would be that You'd have to cut Brainstorms, maybe Stifles and all Witnesses over 1, and add white land, lowering your blue card count drastically and making your mana less consistent and more susceptible to disruption. The blue card thing can probably be worked around, but theres no way around the mana base.

Regardless, in either a normal or white splashing version, ATS is certainly one of the decks to beats.

Di
09-04-2004, 07:22 PM
Splashing white isn't as bad of an option now, because without Mana Drain, Back to Basics gets significantly weaker, so running Savannah won't hurt as bad. Also, the deck would have to adjust, with the first change I see being Annul replacing Stifle, and Null Rod in the sideboard.

But I still think ATS will be a great choice for the post-separation, because aggro will be rising, and it can handle aggro, quite well.

Lord McCaffrey
09-04-2004, 07:47 PM
Not too mention that its one of the few Tier 1 decks to neither A) Get Nerfed by the B/R change or
B) Have all its favorable matchups get nerfed by the B/R change.

The fact that it has good aggro matchups and can handle randomness exceptinally well make it a good choice for the new metagame. Enlightened tutor is just the icing on the cake.

I might run Mana Leak over Annul, just because I would see Annul only being a LD spell vs anything but blue based control or Belcher.

kirdape3
09-04-2004, 08:25 PM
Wait a minute. In a combo field, control is the best deck UNLESS the combo players have either brute speed or force or both. None of the decks that I've seen yet have either quality in sufficient amounts to defeat the mighty Force of Will.

Therefore, you should probably tune ATS against CONTROL, since tuning it against aggro or combo doesn't seem likely in the field that you'll face.

Lord McCaffrey
09-04-2004, 09:15 PM
Well, I think we're interpreting what this is going to mean in terms of the metagame in different ways. My view of this is that the combo available is too disruptable to be a Tier 1 deck. Ok, we're agreed on that. Here's where we differ. I'm not sure that control while it wups on combo, even with no Drains, is going to be fast enough to defeat fast aggro without running artifact acceleration, which opens itself up to the omnipresent hate. Its something of a catch-22 for the control player. Thus it seems like aggro and aggro-control are the archetypes to be gunning for. Doesn't mean I don't want that to be true, but thats how I think its going to be. The differences I think that means in deck construction are adding Enlightened Tutor and utility enchantments to get a consistently faster if more vunerable lock, as opposed to multiple MD Witnesses, B2B's, and Bstorms to be as durable as possible.

Peter_Rotten
09-05-2004, 02:44 PM
With the new environment, I was wondering how much ATS should change.

Like D and Lord Mac have already stated, the inclusion of ETutor seems almost automatic. But what to remove? If we remove Brainstorm - a seemingly good choice at first - we lose quite a bit of the synergy that the deck has. We will have no more sac land shuffle and, more importantly, the U card count is lowered. As of now, I'm unsure of what to remove, but feel ETutor must be included.

Next, if we are including ETutor, we could reasonably assume that we should abuse it to its fullest by main decking some utility enchantments/artifacts. Now the question is which ones? How Humility? Sorry, kidding. I just wanted to give D a scare. :p B2B seems to lose a lot of its luster. Chalice and Crucible seem like soild choices, but what else? Nullrod? Seal of cleansing can be left out since it does the job that one of a creatures does.

Either way, changing 6 slots in a deck like ATS is a tough task tantamount to trying to... oh, I don't know, I'm just looking for excuses to use alliteration.

edit: - sorry, I now realize that I have basically restated what Lord Mac said a few posts above.

Eclipt1c
09-05-2004, 03:37 PM
What's the difference between adding Englightened Tutor now and Sterling Grove a couple months ago? It seems to me that in something like ATS, Grove would be much better to protect the Survivals.

SpatulaOfTheAges
09-05-2004, 03:45 PM
The mana curve pans out nicely with Survival; the reason it's probably not hot in Enchantress is it's primary target is 3 mana, so it doesn't curve out very efficiently. In ATS, you can first turn tutor, second turn Survival, or first turn Survival, second turn upkeep Tutor, still play Survival. With Sterling Grove, you'd have to wait at least a turn.

I think adding utility artifact creatures would be the most optimal thing, since they have synergy with E Tutor AND Survival. I'm having trouble thinking of any besides Masticore and Triskelion though. Maybe Sundering Titan? [glare]

Thought: Given how bad a match-up ATS is for Stasis, maybe you could maindeck a Stasis to Tutor up? Ranger + Stasis = kind of a lock.



Edited By SpatulaOfTheAges on 1094410144