[Project] Rebuilding ATS - It needs to be done [Archive]

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troopatroop

11-30-2005, 02:35 PM

ATS was a deck with alot of history. It can be traced all the way back to late '02 in a metagame filled with Dragon and Mud and Landstill. Made originally from an FEB varient, it was a lock deck designed around creatures and Survival. Even then, in a highly powered metagame it was able to rise to a tier 1.5 status. That is extremely good. This is currently a project to rise this deck from it's ashes and put it back upon it's formal petestal. Obviously I'm biased to believe that ATS is amazing. It's my pet deck, and I was really sad to see it fall out of favor. Hopefully we can do something to give it new life.

Here are the neccesities to any ATS deck.

-18 lands-
4 Tropical island
6 Green saclands
1-2 Taiga
6-7 Forests

-Other Stuff-
4 Survival
4 Tradewind
4 BOP
2 Quirion ranger

1 rofellos
1 squee
1 genesis
1 anger
1 seedborn muse
1 masticore
1 guilded drake

Everything else can be mix-matched to your preferance. Obviously, I've desecrated what was once law among ATS players and made a very tight list sound very open ended, but innovation never hurt, and we could use some. Those cards total to 39 cards, so you've got 21 cards to play with. Most people would prolly go with the Control route, adding Brainstorm, FOW, and Stifle, which has been great in the past. You could add in Red with FTK, B-Wish, and... hell... lightning bolt! Why not! Black could be used for Therapy, Duress, and Plague, or White for EnlightenedTutor and worship... the possibilities are endless.

Go Ahead, Post a list that you think would work well.

Bryant Cook

11-30-2005, 02:48 PM

Drake and masticore down, drop that shit like it's hawt.
+ 1 Shooter
+1 Zealot
+ 1 FTK
If running white + 2 elephant pope.

+1

Peter_Rotten

11-30-2005, 02:55 PM

I have a bad feeling about this thread since it only barely provides enough direction for a focused discussion. However, I am willing to leave it open if the community finds it worthwhile and posts some constructive and intelligent material other than just "hey, look at this list."

WATCHED

bigbear102

11-30-2005, 03:06 PM

I believe that taking this deck in the direction of RGSA with blue splash would be the correct decision in this metagame right now. Having access to Burning Wish is crazy, and you really need FTK to deal with gobbos consistently. Having the quick finisher in Deranged Hermit is also good. i would add 4 FTK, 1 Hermit, 4 Wish. Anything else should be to deal with combo, slowing it down enough to lock with tradewind. Playing a Glowrider version would be good for that, but then you open yourself up to 4 colors, and a lot of hate.

bigguyinblack

11-30-2005, 03:28 PM

I played ATS for years and lost to 3 things. 1. Combo in all shapes and sizes. Your opponent can often go off before a lock is achieved and 4-8 counterpells is usually not enough disruption to stop it. 2. Goblins. None of my mana acelleration lived and a couple of 0/5 walls were not enough to stem the tide. While there were sideboard answers they often did not show up in time. Facing 4 wastelands didn't help either. 3. Pithing Needle. Turn 1 needle for SotF and turn 2-3 needle for Tradewind was usually enough to shut me down cold.
We would need to deal with all 3 of these common problems in one deck before ATS can be brought to it's former glory. 2-3 sex monkey's main would help vs Pithing Needle, would kill random Aether Vial's, and would help vs other random equipment. They also can block and kill goblins. I'm not sure how to deal with Solidarity. Eye of the Storm is a good answer but without E-Tutor it's not a consistant one.
As long as goblins is the DTB RGSA may be the better Survival deck to play.

Efreet

11-30-2005, 03:30 PM

i hope to see the reborn of ATS!!!

so, the biggest problem of first ATS (diablos' list at page 7 of the last topic on the deck..) is that suffer card as:

MEDDLING MAGE
PITHING NEEDLE

all other cards are not a really problem, cause we can always find an answer to the hate..

but naming Soft with that 2 cards mean that we need a new plan over "topdeck".. consider also that now gro variants will rise up, and everybody play with needle in sideboard if not in maindeck..

so the answer are:

1) play as RGSA, so we play spell and creatures that let us play even without survival in play.. so baloth, ftk and wishes.. the only matter is that we don't have true answer to combo..

2) play as old ATS, so toolkit in side with maindeck enlightened tutors that provide to have always survival in play.. but we know the hate is too hard..

3) play in combo-style, with welder or as FEB so we always have an alternative way to play.. the problem is that we should get out some stuff typical of ATS, as seedborn and probably the 4th rider to set up the alternative plan, so we lose the really meaning of the deck..

ATS time ago suffered against Landstill and Solidarity, but all other deck was pretty a bye..

now ATS suffer Solidarity, Burn, Deadguy Ale, Gro variants, Rabid wombat and TheGame variants.. so the restyling of the deck seems a miracle..

first of all we have to choice what color can find place between blue and green.. better, we have to find what color give us more answer to the current metagame.. we also have to consider some cards like Stp, WoBlossom, lightning bolt, and so on with everything that some time ago was "bleah" for ATS..

i personally thought that

-3 enlightened tutor
-1 gilded drake
+2 baloth
+2 flametongue kavu

was a good way to win even without survival, but the problem is that those two guys don't help when we really suffer, against combo and i think gro.. so i wasn't considering those no more, concentrating more on the real needs of the deck..

i think that everybody joining the conversation is a good ATS player, playing it for so much time that every reply have a sense..

so first of all, what kind of solution you used before this thread to make your ATS better?

ps: sorry for the english, i'm italian so not so good in english conversation..

Zilla

11-30-2005, 03:54 PM

Moved to Developmental, because it is. - Zilla

Slag

11-30-2005, 07:04 PM

Here's a potentially blasphemous thought: How about, instead of using survival as a toolbox - enabler, we take a cue from survival advantage (while not quite plagerizing it) and use it as a consistancy engine? I would suggest removing a lot of one - of cards, like seedborn muse and perhaps even rofellos, and throw in full sets of mogg fanatic and basking rootwalla. Fanatic can kill goblins or utility critters, and rootwalla can both trade early and beat late. Ideally, you would use survival to crank out solid critter after solid critter early on, then drop tradewind and tidy up the midgame. The orangutans are probably a good idea based on the number of game-swinging artifacts in use.

troopatroop

11-30-2005, 07:09 PM

Sorry Zilla, My mistake.

The route I've decided to try is the black one, which has proved rather interesting. Duress/Therapy has been much better against solidarity and goblins as well as Plague in the board helping against goblins. this is my current test build.

///mana///
3 Trop
3 Bayou
2 Taiga
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
8 Forest
1 Chrome Mox
4 BOP
4 Wall of Roots
2 Ranger
1 Rofellos

///Basics///
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Stifle
4 Survival
2 Sylvan Library
4 Tradewind Rider

///Toolbox///
1 Seedborn Muse
1 Spike Feeder
1 Masticore
1 Squee
1 Genesis
1 Anger
1 Guilded Drake
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Uktabi
2 FTK

SB: 4 Plague
4 ITEOC
4 Duress
3 Back to Basics

There's my first experimental build. I'm looking more for ideas rather than argument, So post different lists and maybe we can think of something completely new.

Pyrokinesis

11-30-2005, 07:22 PM

With black in the deck why not add a Plague Spitter as a game one Engineered Plague against Goblins? There aren't many 1/1's in the list, and even then you wouldn't care much about them at that point. Plus, I don't think you should have Back to Basics in the board unless you add a swamp and mountain... in your current list it locks you down as much if not more than your nonbasics-happy opponent.

troopatroop

11-30-2005, 07:42 PM

well with quirion ranger and numerous mana producing creatures you usually do pretty well with a B2B on the board.

Pyrokinesis

11-30-2005, 07:50 PM

And Plague Spitter...?

P.S: Line-by-line BBS conversation is never a good idea. Just saying.

martyr

11-30-2005, 08:09 PM

Why not use it as a Madness enabler? This, plus Wild Mongrel, plus a few extra copies of Zombie Infestation let you crank out Rootwallas and Arrogant Wurms like nobody's business, not to mention setting you up for a pretty steamy mid-late game (with stuff like Incarnations, maybe a Psychatog or two, and recurring Squees).

Something like:

4x Fyndhorn Elves
4x Birds of Paradise/Llanowar Elves/Elves of Deep Shadow
4x Basking Rootwalla
4x Arrogant Wurm
4x Wild Mongrel

4x Survival of the Fittest
2x Psychatog
1x Genesis
1x Wonder
1x Anger
1x Valor (woohoo!)
1x Brawn
2x Uktabi Orangutan
2x Squee, Goblin Nabob

2x Duress
4x Cabal Therapy

21x more Mana sources

That leaves you room for modification, and your creatures will be ridiculous.

Slay

11-30-2005, 08:19 PM

Dark Confidant is possibly the most brutal card you can put in the deck. Your life total does not matter, except against burn. Try it out, you'll see how ridiculous it is to draw 2 cards a turn, because one of them will be a bomb.
-Slay

noobslayer

11-30-2005, 09:19 PM

Well, if you are tutoring stuff up with survival, and are already considernig white for enlightened tutor (some, not all builds), then why not play meddling mage? He foils combo long enough for you to get the tradewind rider lock. Or, how about maybe four maindecked swords to plowshares? It seems we need some form of removal, as is evident by our DTB's. I'd say go four colors, neglecting black, sorry troopa. Ftk and Sharpshooter are reason enough alone. Toss burning wish into the mix and you may be beginning to exhume a once dead pain in the ass.

12-01-2005, 12:03 AM

First, people realize this is a thread on ATS. Keep that in mind when posting a decklist so you can make somewhat of an attempt at keeping the discussion on track.

Now, to address the many issues ATS has, and the ones brought up by this thread:

I don't have any new build right now as I've been working exclusively with Turboland, but I still have an idea on properly constructing the deck. The first thing to do when constructing is keeping the main issues in mind(I believe bigguyinblack brought these up):

1. Build to beat Goblins.
2. Build to beat combo.
3. Build to beat Pithing Needle, Meddling Mage, and Goblin Sharpshooter.
4. Build to stop turn 1 Goblin Lackey.

And of course, the most important of them all:

5. Build to do all the above game 1.

That being said, I believe the deck requires in the maindeck atleast:

- Turn 1 drops for Goblin Lackey.
- 4 to 6 Walls to stop the early aggro assault.
- A solid draw engine outside of Survival.
- A fast clock outside the Tradewind lock.
- Maindeck answers to bad cards.

The deck needs to be designed now to accomodate a more aggro-oriented metagame. Control is still strong, so in addition to solving the problem of aggro with quick defense, a good handful of bombs that will put control on it's heels.

The lack of creatures on turn 1 you want to block with make it a problem. Unfortunately, I don't believe the black splash solves that problem very well, aiming at troopatroop's build. Cabal Therapy isn't going to do anything against an opening Lackey when Force of Will is going to. A drawn Cabal Therapy also won't help you when they toss a Disenchant post-board at Engineered Plague, so despite having Engineered Plague, as well as proactive cards for Solidarity, I need to dismiss it. Running Force of Will allows you to cut the number of crappy 1cc creatures needed to help defend against Lackey as well, not to mention is a better midgame draw to hit topdecks and the like. A 1cc that I do consider is Scavenger Folk. This is because it fulfills two roles in stopping Lackey, and hitting Pithing Needle and Aether Vials. In addition to Uktabi Orangutan and Viridian Zealot, artifacts are dealt with a bit better. Negative on Elvish Lyrist, however, as enchantments aren't nearly as prevalent in the current metagame.

I just believe the answers with black can just as easily be solved with UGr. No, there aren't cards like Engineered Plague, but it isn't all that difficult to find answers without fucking the manabase.

The maindeck Walls will obviously consist of Wall of Roots and Wall of Blossoms. I've even debated a Wall of Mulch(explained more below) instead of a 2nd Wall of Blossoms for the added ability to have Wall of Roots draw cards as well. Either way, they all answer to turn 2 Lackey, and hold off aggro rather well within the first few turns of the game, at least long enough to establish control.

Card advantage outside of Survival, to find Survival and still be able to function well without it. The answer here isn't Burning Wish, despite what some of you may think. Burning Wish works in RGSA because that deck is an aggro deck, and thus lacks answers to problematic cards. It can get Tsunami for Solidarity game 1 because it doesn't have Force of Will and friends to slow them down. RGSA also doesn't have Brainstorm to find Survival or another answer, so it needs to rely on a source outside Survival to do something when it isn't on the table.

I'm finding now that I still want more search than Brainstorm, and do like Sylvan Library, but dislike how it doesn't block. Sylvan means little to me if it's all I can cast on turn 2 against Goblins. I would personally run creatures that can cantrip or something in this slot, which again brings me to Wall of Mulch. If you're able to run Wall of Blossoms and Wall of Mulch together, and then run Wall of Roots, I think an excellent line of defense while digging down the deck can be made. Against control they just cycle, and if you need to do it just Genesis them back every turn for another card. I dislike Dark Confident in the deck though due to a range of 4+cc creatures that are required in the deck. Hitting FTK and Tradewind and others will hurt against any aggro deck. It isn't a risk I want to take with cards like that in here.

The fast clock is easily solved with an array of Ravenous Baloth, FTK, and maybe Masticore. Running a healthy dose of them gives you chance to just go aggro and kill people, and then happen to be able to play a bit of defense.

The maindeck answers to cards are simple. Pithing Needle is shut down by Uktabi, Zealot, and Scavenger Folk, which should be plenty. The build I last ran already had a decent game against Needle anyway, because just throwing down Baloths and FTKs can just win games on it's own. Meddling Mage is a bit worse. You have FTK and Tradewind, as well as Goblin Sharpshooter. Shooter gets a bit better if Wall of Mulch is run for untapping triggers. Goblin Sharpshooter has always been a big deal, so I would keep either a Gilded Drake or Caller of the Claw maindeck to handle it. It's a meta dependant slot though. If Reanimator and the like are around, Gilded Drake is just dumb. Caller does have that nice option to just completely fuck people up after Sharpshooter or Wrath of God. Again, Wall of Mulch is pretty cool with it, because it will turn your useless defenders into 2/2 attackers if it's time to smash face.

I'll be testing a list based off what I mentioned here, then get back to people. I also need to type a rather long essay right now, so I can't finish what I want to say here, but when I have more time I'll come back with sideboard options and stuff. Maybe even candy.

Finn

12-02-2005, 01:22 PM

I have been wondering why no one has tried to include Muddle the Mixture. It isn't terrible as a counterspell and you can always pitch it to Force of Will, but most importantly, you can go back to 3 colors and reign in that absurd mana base by replacing both E. tutors and Mana Leaks with this as it counters other counterspells and transmutes for Survival. While you are at it, you could always transmute for Naturalize to take down Pithing Needles post board or possibly Pyroclasm in case of emergency. Who knows, but it has so many pertinent uses that I would think it deserves serious consideration.

Citrus-God

12-03-2005, 02:19 AM

Sims

12-03-2005, 02:58 AM

...which again brings me to Wall of Mulch. If you're able to run Wall of Blossoms and Wall of Mulch together, and then run Wall of Roots, I think an excellent line of defense while digging down the deck can be made. Against control they just cycle, and if you need to do it just Genesis them back every turn for another card.
I understand the ability to toss out dying WoRs and WoBs for cards, but would that Carven Caryatid or whatever the fux it is be a possible choice? An extra G on WoB for a 2/5 body isn't horrible, as it actually kills Goblins instead of blocking them. However you lose the ability to toss away your other Walls for cards. Comments? Is the extra draw of throwing away dying WoRs or WoBs with lethal on them that much better than a slightly more expensive WoB that will actually kill all the creatures in Goblins (barring a King on the table)?

12-03-2005, 03:14 AM

I understand the ability to toss out dying WoRs and WoBs for cards, but would that Carven Caryatid or whatever the fux it is be a possible choice? An extra G on WoB for a 2/5 body isn't horrible, as it actually kills Goblins instead of blocking them. However you lose the ability to toss away your other Walls for cards. Comments? Is the extra draw of throwing away dying WoRs or WoBs with lethal on them that much better than a slightly more expensive WoB that will actually kill all the creatures in Goblins (barring a King on the table)?

I've tested Carven Caryatid and I really, really hated the 3cc. It bugged the hell out of me. Not being able to stop a turn 2 Piledriver or something from the draw sucks hardcore. I don't believe killing attackers is all that big of a deal if they aren't dealing me damage, because it just buys time until I setup a lock. Plus, I think the ability to cantrip off of a dying Wall of Roots or Blossoms is really good. +2 cards from a Wall of Blossoms that holds off a Lackey or something is titties in my book.

For some reason, I feel that AEther Vial belongs in this deck. If Vial is in play, while SotF is active, I can synergize my whole entire deck with AEther Vial, have some mana open to drop down more threats. Yes it's slow, and it's slow against Combo. So please don't sue me...

Aether Vial would be run over mana production creatures. As good as it is, those creatures are used to abuse Survival of the Fittest much faster. Aether Vial doesn't lead you to survivaling more often; it can just dump a Tradewind into play a bit slower than the deck usually can. I find the deck's speed is already too good to lose creatures for. I guess the issue is that the bulk of creatures that want to be played the most round out at 4, so Vial's potential won't come out until it's at that counter. By then, I'll have more than enough mana to do what I like.

Pikula, Needle, and Sharpshooter... err... I really don't know what to say to that. Maybe for Sharpshooter, we could go back to the Enlighten Tutor build, and run Absolute Law. But to tell the truth, it's now worth it...

I actually don't think using the Enlightened Tutor build is that bad. After playing at the Grand Prix and cutting basic lands for nonbasic lands, I realized that Wasteland isn't nearly as prevalent as I originally believed. Yes, Wasteland is still seen in a million decks and yes Life from the Loam decks will be more prevelant in the metagame soon, but the main complaint people had with the manabase was due to Wasteland rape, something I honestly don't see it as popular as I once thought. If I can run a deck that is even more manahungry that this at the Grand Prix with twice as many nonbasics and still perform well, I think the older manabase has a shot at doing well now.

Sims

12-03-2005, 07:53 AM

I've tested Carven Caryatid and I really, really hated the 3cc. It bugged the hell out of me. Not being able to stop a turn 2 Piledriver or something from the draw sucks hardcore. I don't believe killing attackers is all that big of a deal if they aren't dealing me damage, because it just buys time until I setup a lock. Plus, I think the ability to cantrip off of a dying Wall of Roots or Blossoms is really good. +2 cards from a Wall of Blossoms that holds off a Lackey or something is titties in my book.
Not gunna disagree with you, it was just a theory that hit me while I was reading the post as I know that sometimes the mana you have to pay to blow up your Walls for cards might become expensive. Genesis-ing a Wall of Mulch to draw 1 Card is slightly expensive, although it becomes slightly better if you are using Genesis to recurr WoB that you're blowing up with WoM. Still though, 3GGG for 2 cards seems a bit...much. However, the logic is sound and it's true that killing attackers isn't as big of a deal if you can set up lock within a reasonable amount of time. I didn't think the extra mana was going to be as big of a deal, and that perhaps killing off smaller attackers (even though the walls would likely keep them from swinging for a few turns anyways) would help keep the subsequent PDs from being bigger than they could be. /shrug. You'd know better than I anyways, this was your pet.

12-03-2005, 03:02 PM

Obviously the Genesis play with the Wall isn't that great, but I was just demonstrating an example of what you can do given the situation. Most likely in this case there will be something better to get, such as Eternal Witness or Tradewind, but you get the point.

troopatroop

12-03-2005, 03:13 PM

The thing about Enlightened Tutor that always bugged me and made me pull it, is that it often cludders your hand up when you've already drawn survival. When you need creatures in your hand to go crazy with survival, enlightened tutor does jack shit outside of searching for Masticore. This lead me to putting 1 Worship in the maindeck to search for when I've already drawn survival and I'm trying to stabilize the lock. Worship was the tits against goblins, and would be an amazing maindeck slot right now. Often times I would tutor for Worship before Survival because it would help me stay alive much better than Survival would have, and it seems to me like that situation would come up alot more in this metagame than before.

Citrus-God

12-03-2005, 06:45 PM

For some reason, I feel that AEther Vial belongs in this deck. If Vial is in play, while SotF is active, I can synergize my whole entire deck with AEther Vial, have some mana open to drop down more threats. Yes it's slow, and it's slow against Combo. So please don't sue me...

Aether Vial would be run over mana production creatures. As good as it is, those creatures are used to abuse Survival of the Fittest much faster. Aether Vial doesn't lead you to survivaling more often; it can just dump a Tradewind into play a bit slower than the deck usually can. I find the deck's speed is already too good to lose creatures for. I guess the issue is that the bulk of creatures that want to be played the most round out at 4, so Vial's potential won't come out until it's at that counter. By then, I'll have more than enough mana to do what I like.

Pikula, Needle, and Sharpshooter... err... I really don't know what to say to that. Maybe for Sharpshooter, we could go back to the Enlighten Tutor build, and run Absolute Law. But to tell the truth, it's now worth it...

I actually don't think using the Enlightened Tutor build is that bad. After playing at the Grand Prix and cutting basic lands for nonbasic lands, I realized that Wasteland isn't nearly as prevalent as I originally believed. Yes, Wasteland is still seen in a million decks and yes Life from the Loam decks will be more prevelant in the metagame soon, but the main complaint people had with the manabase was due to Wasteland rape, something I honestly don't see it as popular as I once thought. If I can run a deck that is even more manahungry that this at the Grand Prix with twice as many nonbasics and still perform well, I think the older manabase has a shot at doing well now.
gahh... I hate Wastelands. They can seriously slow down a lot of decks. You right, running Savannahs just slow you down even more...

As for the old manabase, I think Red is a very huge part of the deck, besides Anger. I believe that Red gives insane tools to combat other decks, like Goblins.

With FtK, Sharpshooter, and Goblin Pyromancer in the side. I think this deck could do pretty damn well...

Whit3 Ghost

12-03-2005, 09:18 PM

What about a black splash for Diabolic Intent? The only condition is that you need a creature to sacrifice, which isn't a problem considering the walls and mana guys.

Slay

12-04-2005, 03:10 PM

Sacrificing at Sorcery speed is far less than tits when your opponent has a Warchief or a Lackey across from you.
-Slay

Whit3 Ghost

12-04-2005, 03:24 PM

Good point. I was just considering it as an alternative to E. Tutor.

Efreet

12-04-2005, 03:51 PM

sorry but i don't think that play duress, diabolic intent or worship maindeck are solutions to the real problems..

against pithing needle we can use scavenger folk x1 maindeck with orango/viridian shaman (if not both) or eventually 1 seal of cleansing to have another target for tutor..

against meddling we can use in mono-copy Ftk, grim lavamancer or even another masticore and/or a seal of fire, both target for tutor..

against goblin i don't see so much problem..

i have 3 consideration:

1) what about use again Stifle? is extremely good against combo, help our manabase and is blue :) why don't try..

2) what about improve the UW component of the deck? we could use (rebuilding our mana base obviously) meddling mage in 4x and Stp in 4x.. it could help a lot against combo and fatal turn-one lackey.. and postboard we could have more tool to help.. we only have to remove some situational creature in the actual maindeck..

3) i actually testing maindeck 3x pithing needle and they help a lot, but seem just too situational for our needs..

cartman34

12-04-2005, 05:12 PM

This Deck needs several things to addept to the current metagame.

3-4 Stifle:Not only that it protects your lands it is also a good answer to Neddle,Mage etc..

Playing Black:I think that you shoudl not be forced to run that many blue cards and that pitching a Card to FoW is very clunky for this deck so Cabal Therapy could be a good replacement and we all know how good confidant is.

Loxodon Hierarch:It is great against aggro , giving you enought time to set up your lock and it is a good beatdown creature against Combo(I think FtK would be a good sideboard card).

To support that many Colors you should run a maximum(8) of green Fetchlands along with other cards to support your mana base.

Wall of Roots is good but its more often dead than you might think and this Deck can get out of Gas very fast without Survival so maybe a Combination of Wall of Blossoms and Wood Elves(you can survival it to get a Taiga) would be worth testing.

A full set of Meddling Mages in the board helps your combo machtup and with 8 Fetchlands any maybe even 1 couple of City of brass you can support it and since combo decks don´t run mana disruption.You can set up a lock against combo and its a good topdeck.Its good if you don´t have space for enlighted tutor that you have anti combo cards that are fetchable with survival.

Efreet

12-04-2005, 05:50 PM

Sorry but.. have you ever played the deck?? i mean..

First of all stifle doesn't prevent meddling from naming..

Pitch a Fow was never been expensive for this deck with 16 blue card, so i don't think this is the problem.. cabal therapy doesn't improve any of our match-up and play confidant with tradewind, masticore, muse and fow is more than a suicide, even if powerfull..

loxodon hierarch is good against aggro, sorry that "aggro-non goblin" is always a bye for this deck.. it will never help us setting up our lock more than a baloth.. more baloth has only a color to his mana cost so is more flexible, thanks to the ability of gain life whenever we want too.. against combo, this is not a improve, just useless as any other creature in the deck over tradewind..

wall of roots is not good, more!! is never dead because we play only with 18 lands, and a more mana is sure more usefull than an extra card.. we can play wall of blossom, but never take out wall of roots that also add speed against combo.. wood elves is good, but in the actual metagame i think that for a 3mana cost we can find something better for our needs..

meddling mage in side is good, but only if you don't use enlightened tutor so you don't have a side made up of toolbox..

18-20 lands with 8 fetch 2 city of brass and 4 fow means death against every stupid monored burn deck, and goblin wins without piledriver -_-" ... this is not the way to have a better mana base..

dsg123456789

12-05-2005, 09:12 PM

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
2 [B] Tropical Island
2 [B] Taiga
3 [B] Bayou
5 [UNH] Forest
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [ON] Windswept Heath

// Creatures
1 [VI] Uktabi Orangutan
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [ON] Ravenous Baloth
3 [RAV] Dark Confidant
1 [EX] Wood Elves
1 [UD] Masticore
4 [B] Birds of Paradise
1 [LE] Seedborn Muse
1 [JU] Anger
4 [TE] Tradewind Rider
3 [MI] Wall of Roots
3 [VI] Quirion Ranger
1 [UD] Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [JU] Genesis

// Spells
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [US] Duress
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
3 [IA] Brainstorm

// Sideboard
1 [UL] Bone Shredder
1 Gilded Drake

I have been testing ATS with black, since black gives you so many powerful tools. Duress+Cabal Therapy is a must stronger defense to punch through than Force of Will, and they give you card advantage (potentially) rather than card disadvantage.

One problem that I have found with my list is that I really wish I
had some way to recover better from heavy disruption like deadguy ale uses. I am testing both the manabase I have posted and a base with 4 of Bayou and Trop and 2 of Taigas, and so far, neither seems better than the other. Confidant is strong, and since this deck has an average CC of about 2.4, where Deadguy Ale has avg CC of 2, it is not too painful, and you can always therapy it away.

Also, I wish there was a better foil to aggro. Masticore seems weak overall, but I dont know what would be stronger in his place.

I run the 3 Brainstorms because 4 Confidants was quite painful and did not find me a survival fast enough. The Brainstorms+Confidant lets you draw into lots of threats and find your survival in a reasonable time frame.

Citrus-God

12-05-2005, 10:10 PM

So you fixed the Card Advantage Problem... Looks decent. Problem I have with your list is that, after a Wrath hits the board, and they throw away your Survival, your deck is crap.

Yes, Dark Confidant fixed the topdeck problem, but what about your opponents' topdeck? Discard can't punch through that, only counters can. And isn't Cabal Therapy an anti-synergy with your gameplan to lock your opponent with TR?

To tell the truth, I personally liked the hybrid list Di posted on the other ATS thread. Simply because it can topdeck. I mean, he had something going there. It can play 3 roles (Aggro, Control, Lock.) against curtain decks, instead of the standard 2. (Lock and Control.)

dsg123456789

12-07-2005, 03:24 PM

The Therapy and Duresses are there either to protect you from removal and disruption spells so that you can quickly achieve at least 1 Rider activation per turn, thereby gaining an advantage that you can exploit to seal the game, or you can use them to dismantle your opponent's strategy, such as by Therapy-ing piledrivers and warchiefs to buy yourself lots of time. You often can afford to sacrifice a creature it it is nessecary in the early game, because it is more important to protect yourself than to have 5 instead of 4 mana. (Thats why Cabal Therapy isn't anti-synergy--it's just a powerful disruptive spell).

Also, I'd like to point out that most permanent-based decks are not good when they have every permanent except thier lands destroyed. But at the very least this deck can recover with Genesis-->Witness-->Survival, something that decks like Stax cannot do.

The one problem with my list is that it does not have a maindeck creature removal spell, so I think that I am going to cut a therapy and another spell (like a Quirion Ranger) for a Masticore and Bone Shredder MD, because those let you recover easily against decks like Deadguy Ale and Goblins.

Efreet

12-08-2005, 12:21 PM

you don't understand the problem..

the problem is:

- IF I HAVEN'T SURVIVAL IN PLAY, HOW CAN I RESIST??
- YOU NEED TO IMPROVE YOUR TOPDECK..
- HOW CAN I DO IT?
- PLAY CABAL THERAPY...

wow!!! what a wonderful solution.. it seems useless topdecking a enlightened tutor, but not therapy.. therapy is god in this situation..

the problem of confidant is that is not well supported.. deadguy ale play more of 20 (i don't remember) lands, and you will take only 1-2 damage, rarely 3..

in our deck you always take 2 damage, sometimes 1 sometimes 3, and my god it can happen even 4..

no way to play with it without creating a new concept of the deck!! you have to cut one color: blue and green no way.. you can cut white to add black, so you lose tutors, stp (if we wanna try them..) and toolbox in side to gain therapy and confidant..

i don't think we improve anything..

dsg123456789

12-08-2005, 01:24 PM

Efreet, I would appreciate it if you tried to be a little more coherent. Black is much better than white because:

1) You get a secondary draw engine that is very powerful and works without ever seeing a suvival
2) You get a large amount of more efficient maindeck disruption that is usually card parity and sometimes card advantage, rather than the disadvantage of Force of Will.
3) Dark Confidant will only lose you 2.3 life per turn, which is barely more than Deadguy Ale loses on average per turn (2 life).

Enlightened Tutor and Force of Will are card disadvantage solutions that generally are only useful for the first copy you cast (i.e. you usually only have a Blue card to pitch once for Force and you only need to tutor a Suvival once with the tutor), where Confidant and Duress/Therapy are useful every single time you get one (whether it be for further disrupting your opponent or for drawing more cards or just for another Suvival activation).

i think we improve something..

Efreet

12-09-2005, 05:54 AM

i didn't tell you that is a bad idea..

i told you that confidant needs to be more supported, not only by brainstorm but also by (for example) sensei..

i appreciate your ideas, but i still prefer the version with white just because actually in the metagame don't exist the worst deck against which we can play: solidarity and landstill..

in the past only this 2 decks were the problem, and all other archetypes were lot of fun for us..

so i think we need only a few changes, and not to reinvent the deck.. i'll try all your decklist without problem, and i can change my mind in this way :)

Capitalization please. Thanks. - Zilla

Slay

12-09-2005, 04:27 PM

Confidant doesn't need to be better supported at all. You're simply paranoid about losing life. In this format, with the exception of burn, no one cares about how much life you have. If you're drawing 2 cards a turn, you're going to outpace Goblins, sligh, stompy, etc. very very quickly. Who cares if you hit a Tradewind Rider off a Dark Confidant? You have a Tradewind in your hand, and you're about to win the game. 4 life for winning the game seems like a very fair trade.
-Slay

SpatulaOfTheAges

12-09-2005, 05:16 PM

Slay

12-09-2005, 05:22 PM

They may care about your life total, but becuase you're drawing more cards than them, they aren't going to be able to hit you for any reasonable amount of damage, barring a vastly superior draw on their part. The only decks that can actually kill you through the massive card advantage you're getting are decks that wield 12+ burn cards.

The main concern of Dark Confidant should be its extremely killable 2/1 frame, and its inability to stop a first turn Lackey. In my 100+ games testing with AMwP, a deck that sports double the 4cc creatures this deck has, I've only run into problems with life totals once against a non-burn deck.
-Slay

dsg123456789

12-09-2005, 06:49 PM

This deck can support Confidant, because as I think I said before, the average CC in the build I posted is a mere 2.5, which means you will lose about 7.5 life with 3 turns of Confidant-ing. That is usually the lifespan of the Confidant. Also, paying half your life to win the game is acceptable, like Slay said (twisting your words a bit here). The other "nice" thing about the Confidant is its fragile, extremely killable 2/1 frame, because you won't have to suffer its life loss for very long most of the time.

clavio

12-11-2005, 09:40 AM

Has anyone tried windborn muse for the goblin matchup? It may cost too much, but it would defintetley slow them down immensley.

Alfred

12-11-2005, 02:11 PM

I don't think you're factoring in the fact that if you draw lands, the confidant doesn't make you lose any life. Take a hint from CAL which is a very similar deck to this one, Dark Confidant is really, really good. You draw two cards a turn, and in a deck that is loaded with bombs, that's pimp. It costs 2 mana and chump blocks things and can tap for Trider. It makes you less reliant on Survival too. He probably should be in this deck regardless of whether or not it has Genesis or Trider in the deck.

Efreet

12-19-2005, 06:11 AM

so..

i wanna know how is going dark confidant on tests..

i tell you in this way because you seems to me that kind of players that love a card and play it everywhere, just because you think is too much powerful that is not possible not play it..

Carlos El Salvador

12-19-2005, 02:14 PM

@ Adding black to ATS...

You know, it might just be me, but it seems like this deck is just going to turn into a bad version of Rec sur. I mean, come on, at least white gives us tutorability for the damn enchantment(s) we need. Confidant would work wonders in that deck too.

Alfred

12-19-2005, 04:25 PM

dsg123456789

12-20-2005, 12:46 PM

Cal just seems to be the better version of this deck, because it doesn't rely on an enchantment, it has an uncounterable drawing engine, doesn't rely on having creatures on the board, and greaveyard hate hurts it just as badly as ATS. What, if any, reason should you play this above CAL?

Because ATS has a lock and answers to most threats, whereas CAL just wants to win fast. Also, ATS isn't wrecked by graveyard hate like CAL is. ATS can just draw cards like normal and turn all its creatures into whatever it needs at any given time. Also, ATS has a hard lock while CAL has minimal board control (Seismic Assault is strong, but it can be disrupted in many ways, whereas ATS has numerous board control elements, such as TRadewind, Masticore, Sharpshooter, Bone Shredder, Wall of Roots, and/or Gilded Drake).

dryadfanatic724

12-20-2005, 01:45 PM

Hi, I'm not sure if anyone's mentioned this before, as I skipped the 2nd page of posts, but I wanted to help w/ survival, as it was my first good deck. (Since then I switched to GAT, and have played both decks for a total of 5 years in local 1.5 tourneys and I placed 49th at GP Philly with a very bad 4color GAT deck - as you can imagine, I was shitted on by Wastelands). Vs combo, i would say use either meddling mage (i had it in my survival) and either stifle or arcane laboratory/ rule of law (use the blue cards as they pitch to FOW). Vs goblins, basking rootwalla is very good and you can drop a chain of them into play on your opponent's turn w/ survival. The rootwalla is also great vs goblins. I'm gonna go off topic a bit, but I wanted to ask people's opinion on a certain SB tech. It should be insane for ATS and my deck - GWU dryad gro (I cut black and consequently psychatog). The hidden tech is... Mind Harness from Mirage (I had to dig them out of the box of obscure crap cards, I know you all probably have a box like this...). For U, you can gain control of an opponent's RED or GREEN creature and trade it with another one of their guys or use it for your own attacks (theoretically, the creature should die or kill its previous controller before CumuUpkeep becomes an issue) - note, this is only good for the mirror (survival and grow), vs Gobs it is signifigantly weaker (REB, PyroB, Pro blue Piledrivers, not an answer vs T1 lackey) but still for 1 mana it seems very good vs the other overplayed deck in the format. Good luck with the revival of ATS, or you could come to the dark side and play gro! (we have daze and STP for T1 lackey.. ha!)