[Deck] EPIC Painter

[Nightmare]

As I've been having success with this deck recently, and others have as well, I figure it to be high time we formally create a thread for it. At the least, it allows the discussion of the deck in a thread separate from the Imperial Painter discussion. We'll begin with the list, as of September 2008:

4 Polluted delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Academy Ruins
2 Island

2 Trinket Mage
4 Painter's Servant
3 Dark Confidant
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstrom
4 Ponder
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Diving Top
3 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Grindstone
4 Thoughtseize
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Echoing Truth
1 Tormod's Crypt

SB:
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Tombstalker
1x Tormod's Crypt
3x Krosan Grip
3x Blue Elemental Blast
1x Engineered Explosives

The sideboard has changed to include some number of BEB/Hydroblast, instead of the Plagues that were previously there. We made this change at the recent Beta Trop event in Syracuse, because of the large presence of Goyf Sligh players at the event. It's still good against Gobs, in tandem with your man plan, and it has similar utility against Combo. It provides an additional way to deal with both Magus of the Moon and Blood Moon, and can randomly hose people should you opt to play Painter on Red. I managed to win a game against Goyf Sligh due to Blasting two of his Goyfs, which was pretty sweet.

The deck is pretty straight forward. Your game 1 plan involves little more than comboing out, which can often be protected by Counter-Top. Don’t go gung-ho into the combo (ie, the turn three win) unless you’re positive that your opponent cannot protect himself from it. Generally, there’s little incentive for you to go for the quick win during game 1. You can play the control role pretty well against most decks, so take your time, and set it up with plenty of protection.

The real strategy comes in boarding with the deck. I’ve had to adopt the plan of shuffling 15 cards from the board into the deck (even between games 2 and 3), in order to mask the strategy of boarding the Man Plan in. If you play the deck (or against it) and you see 10 cards coming in, there’s a pretty significant chance that there will be Goyfs in the deck for game 2. If you see 15 come in, and 15 come out, then you really have no idea what’s in store, which is the entire point of the Man Plan to begin with.

Generally, if I’m boarding in 7 guys, the 7 cards that come out are:

3x Dark Confidant
2x Painter’s Servant
2x Grindstone

The Bobs are traded straight up for the Tombstalkers. You DO NOT want to take 8 to the face by flipping one off Bob. As for the combo pieces, it’s a simple switch of versatility for redundancy. You don’t want to completely remove the combo, because it can still win the game, but it isn’t plan A anymore. It’s more of a “oh, here’s two combo pieces. I guess I win,” aspect during the Man Plan games. While the opponent is forced to deal with the beaters, lest he be found at zero life, you have the opportunity to find and assemble a two card combo which doesn’t require the attack step. It’s a good thing.

Note that I don’t opt for the Man Plan in every matchup. Quite often, the pre-board configuration is simply better against a deck than guys would be. As an example, I very rarely bring in guys against Survival. They simply have a more difficult time beating the combo than they do beating dudes. Occasionally I’ll leave Bob in, and board in the Goyfs, simply to act as Wall of Tarmogoyf while I work to assemble the win.

The other most frequently boarded out cards are the Vaults and a Ponder, as well as a Thoughtseize or two if I’m on the draw.

The last point I want to make on boarding concerns the Painter Mirror, either the blue or red version. If any of you are familiar with the Oath Mirror from any time it’s been played, you’ll recall the strategy of boarding out your Oaths, and forcing your opponent to play the cards that are otherwise dead in your deck. The same plan is viable in the Painter mirror. Vs. Imperial Painter, for example, I will side out all four Painters, because I know their deck sucks without Painter, and they rely on having it in play to function. I’m willing to let the match come down to who can reliably Grind first, especially if I’ve got Academy Ruins in play. Your best turn 1 play in these matchups is Grindstone, which is counterintuitive, but true. It sets you ahead in a really unnatural way, because it shuts them off their Painter until they can either win all at once, or find a way to deal with your Stone. This gives you plenty of time to assume control of the game.

That’s really all I’ve got to say on the deck for now. I’d be happy to field questions or comments, as well as give more advice if you guys need any. The deck has been extremely solid the entire time I’ve been playing it, and I’ve only narrowly missed on top 8 every time I’ve played it. Feel free to discuss. Thanks!

[Skeggi]

1 Echoing Truth seems a bit random. Can you explain?

[Nightmare]

Sure. It deals with any non-land permanent that would impede you or kill you, for two mana at instant speed. Also, it's easy to find with the combination of cantrips and LDV. It's also an additional out to Empty the Warrens, which is pretty relevant.

[thefreakaccident]

All I can say about this deck is MOAR!!!!! Lim Dul's vault.


Seriously, the card is amazing, and I cannot see why you would want to run any less than 4, a two mana 'stack my deck' is pretty good I hear.


This is all.

[Skeggi]

Can you elaborate a bit more on match-ups? How does it hold against nonbasic hate for instance?

[Nightmare]

There are two basic ways people hate on lands these days - Moon effects and Wasteland.

Moon effects are anywhere between mildly annoying to devastating, depending on where you are in the game when it hits, and what kind of draw you have. If you kept the hand with a bunch of non-basics and cantrips, you're screwed. Such is life. If you've had the chance to fetch and Island and hopefully a Swamp, you're usually golden, because you have access to the necessary mana to find your combo (which is colorless) to win through the Moon.

Getting hit by a Wasteland isn't really that big a deal, because you can fetch basics to play around it. On the other hand, recurring Wastes can be annoying.

I'd say Aggro Loam is one of your worst matchups, due to the combination of recursive Wastes and Devastating Dreams to nuke the basics, should you try to play around the Wastes. I've had a tough time with that deck.

[Ch@os]

Just looks like some japanese lists. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10158&highlight=painter) , you just moved the Goyfs in the SB and play more copys of Grindstone.

[johanessen]

What about this list?

Mana sources

4 Polluted delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground sea
2 Swamp
1 Academy Ruins
3 Island
//Total: 18

Kill Conditions

4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
//Total: 8

Cantrips

3 Trinket Mage
3 Dark Confidant
4 Brainstrom
4 Ponder
3 Sensei's Diving Top
3 Lim-Dûl's Vault
//Total: 20

Protection

4 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance
4 Thoughtseize
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Echoing Truth
1 Tormod's Crypt
//Total: 14

Sideboard

3 Pithing Needle
3 Extirpate
1 Toromod's Crypt
1 Enginereed Explosives
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Hydroblast
2 Mind Harness
//Total: 15

[Nightmare]

Just looks like some japanese lists,you just moved die Goyfs to the SB. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10158&highlight=painter)

Far be it from me to claim originality, but I can trace our list back to April. I've been playing it almost exclusively since then.

Also, Dreadnought is TERRIBLE.

[Nightmare]

What about this list?



3 Pithing Needle
3 Extirpate
1 Toromod's Crypt
1 Enginereed Explosives
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Hydroblast
2 Mind Harness
//Total: 15

So you took our MD, and cut a land for a Trinket Mage, and then cut the good cards from the board for Control Magic and Cremate. I'm not sure where you want me to comment.

[AnwarA101]

Wouldn't Fabricate be better than Trinket Mage? It gets any artifact including both combo pieces. Someone at our local tournament was playing it and it seems better than Trinket Mage. I don't think this deck plans to go beatdown with Trinket Mage.

[Shriekmaw]

Wouldn't Fabricate be better than Trinket Mage? It gets any artifact including both combo pieces. Someone at our local tournament was playing it and it seems better than Trinket Mage. I don't think this deck plans to go beatdown with Trinket Mage.


I remember Fabricate back in type 2 when it was played in the Iron-Works combo deck. It does seem like it would be better since it gives you the ability to search for any combo piece that you might need.

Very good suggestion Anwar.

[Jaynel]

Wouldn't Fabricate be better than Trinket Mage? It gets any artifact including both combo pieces. Someone at our local tournament was playing it and it seems better than Trinket Mage. I don't think this deck plans to go beatdown with Trinket Mage.

Trinket Mage does chump Tarmogoyf and other guys while you set up the combo. The only thing Trinket Mage can't get is Painter; I'd rather have a 2/2 able to block and use cantrips to find the other half of the combo than have Painter in hand and a 4/5 or 5/6 crashing into my face.

Those are my thoughts, at least. I'm not sure what Adam thinks.

[Shriekmaw]

Trinket Mage does chump Tarmogoyf and other guys while you set up the combo. The only thing Trinket Mage can't get is Painter; I'd rather have a 2/2 able to block and use cantrips to find the other half of the combo than have Painter in hand and a 4/5 or 5/6 crashing into my face.

Those are my thoughts, at least. I'm not sure what Adam thinks.


Why wouldn't you have a card that would basically let you win the game the next turn instead of a 2/2 body that might not be able to get you the other combo piece to just win?

I believe the goal is to win as fast as possible and Fabricate does a lot better job at that than trinket mage. I would always prefer fabricate over trinket mage, having a 2/2 body is just not relevant.

I'm sure you can think of examples where trinket mage has won you the game, but in terms of results, fabricate will win you more games than not.

I can't believe when people play combo and they fear a fucking green creature in Tarmogoyf. Stupid.

[Nightmare]

Why wouldn't you have a card that would basically let you win the game the next turn instead of a 2/2 body that might not be able to get you the other combo piece to just win?

I believe the goal is to win as fast as possible and Fabricate does a lot better job at that than trinket mage. I would always prefer fabricate over trinket mage, having a 2/2 body is just not relevant.

I'm sure you can think of examples where trinket mage has won you the game, but in terms of results, fabricate will win you more games than not.

I can't believe when people play combo and they fear a fucking green creature in Tarmogoyf. Stupid.Your goal really isn't to win ASAP. This is a control-combo deck, not a balls to the wall combo deck, so it's ok to win a little slower. I'm not going to give an opinion either way on the Fabricate vs. Mage issue, because honestly I haven't done any testing with Fab, but I have won more than a few games with Mage beatdown, especially in conjunction with Bob. I'll let you guys know.

[freakish777]

What are you planning on cutting for the 1-of :b: artifact that kills a non-black creature (from Shards)? That seems like an auto-include in this deck since you can grab it with Trinket and blow up Goyf without knocking out your own Counterbalance in the process (which EE does, I think cutting EE is clearly wrong).

The 3-3 split on Dark Confidant and Lim-Duls Vault is jarring. I would imagine one is better than the other (albiet they serve different purposes, Vault is better at allowing you to combo, Confidant better at allowing you to control), my inclination is that Confidant is better than Vault (Sadin's winning GP Flash deck ran 4 Confidants and no Vaults, and this was the tournament where Vault actually shined).

It's too bad there isn't room for the Goyfs main. I guess I just want my cake and to eat it too...

[Skeggi]

It's too bad there isn't room for the Goyfs main. I guess I just want my cake and to eat it too...

It's actually what I like about this deck: no Goyfs. And since the list is now public, chances are high lots of people will play it, reducing average Goyf% on tournaments (and in DTB's, likely).

[Nightmare]

I may be forced to cut the Crypt from the maindeck to include TerrorTrinket when Shards becomes legal. It's interesting, because I really like the MD Crypt with all the Ichorid running around, but I think the removal spell will be better overall. It may be a meta call.

[Ewokslayer]

It's too bad there isn't room for the Goyfs main. I guess I just want my cake and to eat it too...

You could just make the SB plan permanent.
-2 Painters
-2 Grindstone

+4 Goyf

or possibly
-1 Painter
-2 Stones
-1 Ponder
+4 goyf
The logic behind it still holds in Game 1 as Games 2 and 3 as they have to stop your deck from attacking them at multiple angles and the deck's goal isn't to combo off as quickly as possible.

[Nightmare]

A lot of people have mentioned that option, but I don't really like it. I like the redundancy of the combo game 1, and you can blindside a lot of players with Goyfs games two and/or three. You can't really do that if they see Goyf during game 1.

The other thing I forgot to mention is how good Turn 2 Goyf is, after your opponent plays a turn 1 Needle on Grindstone. Lovelovelove that play.

[Nihil Credo]

you can blindside a lot of players with Goyfs games two and/or three.
Does that really happen? Seems to me that between the Confidants and the Painters people wouldn't be sideboarding out cheap removal against you. Goblin will take out Weirding, and Shriekmaws will get sided out, but that's it.

[Nightmare]

Does that really happen? Seems to me that between the Confidants and the Painters people wouldn't be sideboarding out cheap removal against you. Goblin will take out Weirding, and Shriekmaws will get sided out, but that's it.Yeah, it really does. Goyf just ends up getting there, because they don't plan for him. They'll keep a hand full of hate for the combo, and he just plain wins. Tombstalker does too.

[thefreakaccident]

Shouldn't we use flash as a start point?

Basically, just convert sadin's build into painter, and shave a few of the numbers accordingly... that shell was pretty hot as far as I could tell.

[Nightmare]

Last night I went 3-1 into the top 4; beating ITF, Tombstone, and Bwg Deadguy and losing to play mistakes Vs. Ichorid. I then beat Tombstone again in the top 4 to split for first. This makes my third event in a row splitting for first.

[darkalucard]

BTW I wasn't playing It's the Fear...


I don't run white.
I don't run Counterbalance/Top.
I have 2x more threats etc.
...and I don't lose to Extirpate.



P.S. I absolutely hate ITF and think it sucks.

[Ewokslayer]

Shouldn't we use flash as a start point?

Basically, just convert sadin's build into painter, and shave a few of the numbers accordingly... that shell was pretty hot as far as I could tell.

I think an important problem with that is this combo costs 3 times as much to activate. As such you will have to do more "shaving" of the numbers than one might originally think.

Also Tarmogoyf and Thoughtseize weren't legal

[frogboy]

This basically looks like an aggressive Counterbalance shell that plays the Painter combo instead of creatures. I've always been curious why that's been perceived as better. It seems to me that if you have the lock going that you have the game effectively won anyways, so whatever you kill them with is mostly irrelevant. Meanwhile, your combo is still vulnerable to removal the same as creatures, but you have Grindstones instead of your own removal or threats. Given that you're still vulnerable to removal, but have a lot of cards that are dead on their own, what makes it better than just having a bunch of guys? People don't play much Wrath anymore, and Deed/EE look pretty awesome against the deck. I dig that boarding in beaters gives you more angles, but it still doesn't seem worth the effort. Is holding control so hard that you need the faster clock? Better vs combo?

(I'm not attacking the deck, I'm just curious)

[Adan]

This basically looks like an aggressive Counterbalance shell that plays the Painter combo instead of creatures. I've always been curious why that's been perceived as better.

Me too, but i like what I am seeing so far since it plays the same cantrip-shell like Threshold, thus it must be very consistent. I'd say even more consistent than Imperial Painter. But Moons may make Imperial Painter better under certain circumstances... Anyway, i like it a lot. I'll try it as soon as I can get my 4th Grindstone from somewhere...


It seems to me that if you have the lock going that you have the game effectively won anyways, so whatever you kill them with is mostly irrelevant. Meanwhile, your combo is still vulnerable to removal the same as creatures, but you have Grindstones instead of your own removal or threats. Given that you're still vulnerable to removal, but have a lot of cards that are dead on their own, what makes it better than just having a bunch of guys?

You basically out-control your opponent with Counterbalance-Top and you are also able to assemble either the lock or the combo via Limdul's Vault. In any case you can win within 1-2 turns, even if your opponent has got infinite life or something. Against some decks you can play straight on combo and win quickly.


People don't play much Wrath anymore, and Deed/EE look pretty awesome against the deck. I dig that boarding in beaters gives you more angles, but it still doesn't seem worth the effort. Is holding control so hard that you need the faster clock? Better vs combo?

(I'm not attacking the deck, I'm just curious)

Well, Pernicious Deed can easily be countered via Counterbalance. The trick is to stack a Trinket Mage on top with Limdul's Vault.

But I'd say this deck is well structured, it's actually a fixed/compact version of Cephalid Breakfast which has got a solution against removal that can interrupt you: Counterbalance.

The transformational SB also seems to be cool since you can still play the Cephalid Breakfast-mode and simply tutor up every Goyf or Stalker and go beatdown if you have to face Gaea's Blessing.

[frogboy]

The basic question is that, because once the lock is established winning is usually easy, does this have more EV when you don't have the lock as opposed to a man plan, and why?

[Dark_Cynic87]

I think I'll start playing this. I've been running Cephalid Breakfast simply as a way to utilize my set of Goyfs in more than just a thresh list (Which I find average to play at best), but it's far from optimal being a hugely GY-Based combo and therefore almost completely unacceptable pre-Shards and absolutely so post-Shards due to other faster combos that use the graveyard present in the meta, and therefore massive amounts of GY hate. This leads to me losing a lot, which sucks.

I traded off Bobs and T-Seizes @ GenCon, so it'll be a bit before I get it assembled, but consider me in.

Ichorid is a driving force in my meta, would you explain to me how to beat a turn-2 goldfish? I see a lot of options, but can you beat it reliably? What's your percentage come to on the matchup in your testing?

Have you thought of Aether Vial? Just curious, I'm sure it's crossed your mind since you run Painters and Bob maindeck, Goyfs in the board...Probably not as useful as other slots already dedicated to other premises.

Plan on seeing me in this thread more and more.

Pce,

--DC

[Nightmare]

The basic question is that, because once the lock is established winning is usually easy, does this have more EV when you don't have the lock as opposed to a man plan, and why?I'm still not convinced that winning with the "Lock" in play is as easy as people make it out to be. In terms of the distinction between the creature win, and the combo win, well, it's much faster to win with the combo. I mean, generally speaking people have worked toward their own win, and have dudes in the way, etc. I've found it much, much simpler to assemble six mana and go "oops I win." In that regard, the soft lock is much more useful as proactive disruption than it is in protecting the combo for an extended period of time, which would be required were I to try and win through the attack step.

[Ramptoniin]

This deck is also great for revealing Trinket Mage when you have Counterbalance in play and your opponent Krosan Grips your Grindstone. Then Reveals a Tarmogoyf for Counterbalance the very next turn when your opponent casts a Tarmogoyf. Hardcore Top Decking Deck...

[Adan]

This deck is also great for revealing Trinket Mage when you have Counterbalance in play and your opponent Krosan Grips your Grindstone. Then Reveals a Tarmogoyf for Counterbalance the very next turn when your opponent casts a Tarmogoyf. Hardcore Top Decking Deck...

And what exactly was the message behind this?

This deck is not a topdecking-deck since you have a lot of cantrips to optimize your draw and seek for solutions. And as I said before, revealing Trinket Mage for Krosan Grip and Deed is not difficult if you know your opponent play those cards since you can always set it up with Limdul's Vault.

[Nightmare]

And what exactly was the message behind this?

This deck is not a topdecking-deck since you have a lot of cantrips to optimize your draw and seek for solutions. And as I said before, revealing Trinket Mage for Krosan Grip and Deed is not difficult if you know your opponent play those cards since you can always set it up with Limdul's Vault.

He's bitter cause I did that to him. I rule at blind Counterbalance reveals.

[Nightmare]

I think I'll start playing this. I've been running Cephalid Breakfast simply as a way to utilize my set of Goyfs in more than just a thresh list (Which I find average to play at best), but it's far from optimal being a hugely GY-Based combo and therefore almost completely unacceptable pre-Shards and absolutely so post-Shards due to other faster combos that use the graveyard present in the meta, and therefore massive amounts of GY hate. This leads to me losing a lot, which sucks.Very astute of you to recognize the similarities between this deck and our Cephalid List. It was loosely based on that list when we created it. Consider this a more reliable, but slightly more expensive Breakfast.


Ichorid is a driving force in my meta, would you explain to me how to beat a turn-2 goldfish? I see a lot of options, but can you beat it reliably? What's your percentage come to on the matchup in your testing?I feel pretty comfortable with the Ichorid matchup. I've only lost once, maybe twice ever in that matchup with this list. Basically, game one you try to win the die roll, which gives you 9 turn 1 plays that significantly impact the game - 4 Thoughtseize, 4 Force, and Crypt. If you don't have at least one of those three, preferably a combination of two or more, then you mull. You have to stop them from going balls-out broken. That buys you time to tutor up crypt/ruins, or EE, etc, which helps win the yard war. That's game 1 in a nutshell. Games 2 and 3, I bring in Goyf (not Stalker) and the other artifacts from the board. Sometimes they get lucky and have the Needle for Crypt, but that's the game you play. You're usually looking to Vault for your hate, or Trinket Mage it up, and the combination of a combo win with tutorable, recurable hate is enough to pull it out.


Have you thought of Aether Vial? Just curious, I'm sure it's crossed your mind since you run Painters and Bob maindeck, Goyfs in the board...Probably not as useful as other slots already dedicated to other premises.You've answered your own question!

[freakish777]

In that regard, the soft lock is much more useful as proactive disruption than it is in protecting the combo for an extended period of time, which would be required were I to try and win through the attack step.

Against, say, Thresh (3 or 4 color builds), postboard (when they're likely to bring in their Krosan Grips), it seems like you really want to be resolving a Counterbalance (if they blast the Counterbalance to not get "locked out", then you can potentially be clear to drop the combo on the board, if they figure you don't have pressure, they do, and will wait to Grip a combo piece, you can use Vault/Top/Ponder/Brainstorm to set up a Trinket on top after you've got the combo in hand and are ready to try and bust it onto the board).

Is there any way to add the 4th Counterbalance?

[Nightmare]

Against, say, Thresh (3 or 4 color builds), postboard (when they're likely to bring in their Krosan Grips), it seems like you really want to be resolving a Counterbalance (if they blast the Counterbalance to not get "locked out", then you can potentially be clear to drop the combo on the board, if they figure you don't have pressure, they do, and will wait to Grip a combo piece, you can use Vault/Top/Ponder/Brainstorm to set up a Trinket on top after you've got the combo in hand and are ready to try and bust it onto the board).

Is there any way to add the 4th Counterbalance?

I absolutely bring in all seven guys against Thresh post-board. They are one of the matchups where you REALLY want the man plan. You simply transform your deck into Black Thresh, and win the mirror.

[freakish777]

I absolutely bring in all seven guys against Thresh post-board. They are one of the matchups where you REALLY want the man plan. You simply transform your deck into Black Thresh, and win the mirror.


Right, but wouldn't you still want a 4th Counterbalance against them? Usually whoever counters more spells with Counterbalance is in the position to actually out-man the opponent in the mirror.

EDIT:

How strong have you found the deck to be overall? You seem to have some versatility, so it may not be bad to have extra copies of cards that are maindeck in the board. For instance, perhaps you want to go to 4 main Lim-Duls Vault and 2 main Dark Confidants, and then side the extra 1 or 2 Confidants when you want to be less a combo deck, and more a control deck. Same would go with the 4th Counterbalance perhaps?

[frogboy]

LDV and Confidant are not interchangable, because LDV on turn two is a lot less awesome than Confidant on turn two.

Nightmare: When you're using the combo without the lock to back it up, how often does Plow or whatever other removal spell get in the way?

[Michael Keller]

I can attest for having playing Imperial Painter for an extended period of time that the EPIC Painter list is quite strong and suits the play-style of a control-combo player quite well. While it isn't as aggressive as I.P., it certainly can be post-board.

One of the strongest aspects I have seen playing against Nightmare with the list is how strong the disrupt package can be. The combo itself is colorless and this build doesn't rely solely on Blast effects for full power with Painter's Servant, but rather a slew of problems such as Counter/Top and Lim Dul's Vault which set yourself up for an almost unstoppable win.

One of the (rare) drawbacks I've noticed, however, is how convoluted the chain of events that precursor to the win can be. What I mean by this, is sometimes all the deck can do is run out of answers until your opponent overwhelms you with brute force or cards like Magus of the Moon (which hoses just about any deck founded upon non-basics). I've seen Nightmare pitch Lim-Dul's Vault more than any other card in the deck to Force of Will - which is a good thing, don't get me wrong - because of how effective one is if you can get it off. And how ironic they both reside from Alliances?

I really enjoyed playing against this particular version of the Painter-Grindstone builds. If you're a control player with a secret passion for combo, then you'll love this. It's more consistent than Imperial Painter, but does lack the punch to go up the first game in a round against similarly strong builds.

[freakish777]

LDV and Confidant are not interchangable, because LDV on turn two is a lot less awesome than Confidant on turn two.

I wasn't suggesting they were.

Observations:
This list seems extremely tight.
Having played against it, it seems to be fairly strong (compared to the rest of the metagame).
Lim-Duls Vault and Dark Confidant are competing strategies (Dark Confidant provides control, LDV provides "beatdown" by allowing you to combo out quickly).

Question:
Against the majority of the metagame, do you think you're the beatdown or the control?

Suggestion:
After answering that question for yourself, shift to 4 maindeck Confidants (if control) or 4 maindeck LDVs (if "beatdown") and 2 of the other card (and board the other 1~2 as both are "good enough" cards in their own right).
Also if you're the control against the bulk of the metagame, you may also want the 4th Counterbalance main, cutting down to 1 LDV in the main (I'll make an assumption that the mana curve in this deck is "correct" and that if at all possible all 2cc cards should be replaced by 2cc cards).

Note: I don't actually subscribe to the Flores belief that "Either 0 or 4 copies is right and nothing in between." I do however find it strange that the deck has the "I want to control the game" package of Counterbalance Top Confidant juxtaposed with the "I want to win when I untap after tutoring" of LDV, when it seems like it should focus on one or the other, and then have the other plan sideboarded. If against the metagame you're the control by far 50% and the beatdown by far 50% (ie, everyone is either playing Belcher or MUC), then it's likely fair to go 100% in the middle and then board appropriately. However if you're pretty sure you're going to be the control deck 70% of time, why not just stuff the LDVs into the board and focus on controlling the game more? Then against the decks where you're the beatdown, you bring in the LDVs (and the man plan? over the confidants and the couple extra copies of the combo).


Summary: I think Confidant + LDV is slightly unfocused (and that may not be a bad thing, depending on the metagame).

[frogboy]

Yeah, I see what you're saying. I misread your post.

I'm usually inclined towards versatility, but this is probably one of the circumstances where "it depends on what strategies and tactics you use" is a reasonable argument, and certainly preboarding is valid.

[Dark_Cynic87]

I'm going to run 4x Goyf mainboard around here for a while until I can get my other 2x Grindstone at a reasonable price. While I have most legacy staples, Grindstone was never considered useable until just very recently. I don't have them, and didn't grab them when I should have at a reasonable price.

[Nightmare]

I've never been a fan of running a split in cards between the main and board, to be sided to a full set in different matchups (IE, the fourth CB in the board). It's just never seemed like the proper way to utilize the slots in your sideboard to me. It may be good in the Thresh match, but I'm not convinced there's a significant advantage to running four CBs to three. At least, not a large enough advantage to justify cutting other cards from the board.

As for the Bob/Vault split, I could consider going up to 4 Bobs and 2 Vaults, but I wouldn't go the other way. Bob is one of your best cards, and one of only two sources of true card advantage in the deck. I love hitting him on turn 2 - he's probably your best two drop, including CB. He applies pressure to your opponent while enabling your combo by both drawing fire, and giving you access to more cards. Still, four seems like too many to run, and there's few times I really want more than one of him online.

Vault is the same way. It sets the combo up by finding the missing piece, or finds the ETruth or whatever I need at that moment, but it's not amazing all the time, and it rarely resolves. It shines with CB or Bob in play, for sure. I side them out a lot, but that's not really that big a deal in my eyes.

I've played a lot of games with this list - a LOT - and I've never felt like the numbers of either card are off. Of course, I'm also a proponent of versatility over inherent power, so my objectivity may be questionable.

[Rush]

I believe Tezzeret will push this deck into a definite tier position.

[Ch@os]

And why do you think that will happen?

Ive tested the Deck and even my thoughts are that Goyf belongs mainboard 3-4x.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Please don't bring up Tezzeret again. It doesn't, nor will it ever, belong in the discussion of a combo oriented list. There are *MUCH* better, lower costing tutors, and it's other abilities are completely irrelevant.

Goyf, in my opinion, belongs maindeck. The suprise factor isn't enough to make it a viable sideboard card. If nothing else, it draws creature removal like a flame draws moths. It's one less StP to worry about when you drop painter. If it never gets hit, its a win-condition. A double-edged sword shouldn't be confined to the sideboard. Same argument goes for DC, as it's a very powerful card to drop on turn 2, and this list is chuck full of those.

In fact, it could be safe to say that dropping a Grindstone turn one and then a goyf turn two could lead to some pretty confused opponents as to what to do next--find a removal spell or nullify the Grindstone.

Meh.

19
4 Polluted delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Academy Ruins
2 Island

41
2 Trinket Mage
2 Painter's Servant
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstrom
4 Ponder
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Diving Top
2 Lim-Dul's Vault
2 Grindstone
4 Thoughtseize
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Echoing Truth
1 Tormod's Crypt

Eh? How about something like that? It's not a huge change, but it seems like a reasonable effort. While LDV is a good card, it's been mentioned it's certain dissynergy with DC, and top's capacity to be good with it, I'd say up the count of SDT and maybe a maindecked Needle in place of the LDV. Maybe that slows it down to much, but I like the 4x DC over LDV, and I don't know if LDV is better than Confidant.

Pce,

--DC

[Nightmare]

I don't have any particular issues with the list DC just posted, and sometimes it's pretty much what the deck looks like for me post-board. I suppose to some extent its up to you guys whether you run the Goyfs MD or SB, but personally, I like them better in the board, allowing you a more focused game one vs. decks which won't be adequately prepared to combat the combo. The most common forms of hate (Blessing, Grip, Needle) aren't in too many maindecks these days, and Swords is pretty easy to play around.

[Dark_Cynic87]

While my list works, I'm definitely interested in running 4x/4x of each combo piece. I simply haven't gotten all four of my Grindstones (eh...20 bux a pop, I'm a little strapped atm).

It works, and in some metagames it may be optimal. However, it's not exactly what I'm hoping to run in the end. It will probably be -4 goyf, +2 of each combo piece, at least for a while unless/until it becomes a hassle and I need the creatures.

Pce,

--DC

[Rush]

And what tutor card(s) are you referring to DarkCynic? The point is he finds either piece without having to actually cast the card itself. It's like this, if you cast Vault to find a Painter, you just spent as much mana as if you had simply cast Tezzeret. You also avoid the whole paying life bit. Tezzeret finds Crypt for free. Additionally, you're opponent must deal with the card or you can just keep grabbing pieces until you win. Much like Goyf will draw out removal, Tezzeret would draw out damage, and, in your build and the like, you need to try and hold onto as much life as humanly possible.

[Nightmare]

It's like this, if you cast Vault to find a Painter, you just spent as much mana as if you had simply cast Tezzeret. You also avoid the whole paying life bit.
Tezzeret costs 5 mana. Vault costs 2 mana. It's generally played during your opponent's EOT step. Then, you untap your two mana sources, and use them to play Painter. See, in that regard, its much, much cheaper to play LDV.

[Rush]

Ah, I was not aware it was 3UU. I could have sworn the last time I checked the spoiler said its cost was 2UU. Oh well, in that case, I would not run the card either. Also, it costing 3UU makes me a sad panda now. :(

[Isamaru]

Sorry to go off topic here, but I'd just like to point out that Sadin didn't actually build the Flash deck he played, so we probably don't need to keep typing those 5 letters every time we try to mention the winning GP Flash deck.

Even though Lim-Dul's Vault is great, it's just like Fabricate over Trinket Mage... even though it'd do a better job than Confidant, it doesn't have any immediate effect on the board.

[Dark_Cynic87]

While that's one outlook, and don't get me wrong, bob is a badass, another possible outlook is that LDV is a "win-now" card. LDV into your last piece, tap top, win. That's a more aggressive approach. I understand Bob is great CA and a must-counter and barring that a removal-eater, but he doesn't grab what you need. It's more likely a play-style call. Also a meta-call. I'd much rather play bob in a heavy Eva-Green meta than I would LDV, same with a highly controlling meta, but as for a more well-rounded event/meta, I'd probably go with LDV. LDV, while a one-time effect, has a much more PROFOUND effect. It wins now.

Meta/Play-style call.

I think it's not a pick one scenario, but a player's call.

We pretty much had this debate in FT discussion months ago. I'd like to get through it with this deck so we can look at the more important issues. Keep in mind Bob can be in the board with Goyf as even more of a suprise.

Pce,

--DC

[freakish777]

Sorry to go off topic here, but I'd just like to point out that Sadin didn't actually build the Flash deck he played, so we probably don't need to keep typing those 5 letters every time we try to mention the winning GP Flash deck.

:rolleyes:

You're correct, Billy Moreno (who has a PT T8 in LA several years ago) did. Why does it matter if Sadin built the deck he won with, or his pro teammate did? It doesn't change the fact that that it was the best deck in the field at the GP, that it won, or any of the card choices (which is more important to us as deckbuilders than who built it, the reason to include a name is to easily find a list by googling "Sadin Flash")...

[Rush]

Nightmare, are you Matt McNally? I simply ask because this (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=18914) is a list from deckcheck.net. On a side note, I've been playing with this deck a good bit, however I'm having trouble against decks that run Stifles. Any ideas? Finally, I've been tempted to try putting the Dreadstill combo in the side, what would you suggest?

[Dark_Cynic87]

Learn to utilize your CounterTop combo efficiently against Stifle. That's your best plan. There's also Forces in here. It shouldn't be that difficult...when you see U open, think it through a bit more.

Pce,

--DC

[Adan]

Nightmare, are you Matt McNally? I simply ask because this (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=18914) is a list from deckcheck.net. On a side note, I've been playing with this deck a good bit, however I'm having trouble against decks that run Stifles. Any ideas? Finally, I've been tempted to try putting the Dreadstill combo in the side, what would you suggest?

Nightmare = Adam Barnello, Matt McNally must be a buddy of Nightmare.

And don't run Dreadnought in the Sb, playing Tarmogoyf and Tombstalkers for the man-plan is way more efficient as it is then not reliant on Stifle.

In the direkt compairison 4 Goyf + 2 Tombstalker are way more efficient then 2 Nought + 4 Stifle. And I doubt that you have more than 6 slots to give away to the man-plan.

[Rush]

EDIT: I've been trying out my theory by running a deck with Naughts and Stifles in the main board. I must say, I like it better than the more suicidal approach of using Confidant. Sure, Confidant is awesome if he stays on the board, but I usually see him being one of the biggest targets for opposing decks. This said, I'm currently only running 5 cards in the slot: 4 Stifle + 1 Naught. Additionally, I'm running 3 Trinket Mage and only 3 Grindstone. I believe I may eventually run a deck with only 2 Grindstone and 2 Naught. Simply put, the idea makes it harder for your opponents to tell exactly what you're going to do.

[Dark_Cynic87]

I'm inclined to not run 'Nought. However, I'd like to see your list...

[Nightmare]

Dreadnought is terrible. I hate the card, and I have said my reasons many, many times. Confidant draws you cards, allowing you to achieve your plan A more effectively. Dreadnought 2-for-1's you every single time.

Matt McNally is a New England Vintage player who saw me play the deck a while back and was intrigued. He got the list from my old tournament report, and started playing the deck. He's done well with it.

[asdasd71]

i'm playing a trinket painter. My friend plays a very strong stiflenought control.


How would you suggest playing/siding in against this deck?

[Ch@os]

Just Grip and EE.

[Adan]

Just Grip and EE.

And I'd try to assemble CB+Top, whatever comes first.

[Rush]

I will say after playtesting the deck more and more, my deck keeps looking more and more like your build Nightmare. There are two main difference, though. I'm using Portent instead of Brainstorm in the deck. I would suggest doing the same. It allows you to shuffle if you don't get what you want and it also allows you to keep your opponent from drawing something to stop your combo when you're about to combo out. Portent + Ponder is very powerful together, since you can stack both your deck and you're opponents in the same turn, while they both replace themselves in your hand. The other difference is I'm running Duress over Thoughtseize, mainly because the deck is suicidal enough already, and I'm not too worried about creatures, since if I don't combo out, I'm not likely to win pre-board, and postboard, I'm more likely running bigger creatures and EEs to take out opposing small creatures.

[jrp]

Portent over brainstorm is definitely not right; especially in a deck with fetchlands. "Stacking" your opponent's deck is not part of your primary gameplan. Brainstorm smoothes your draws, interacts very well with both counterbalance and fetchlands, and is an instant. Brainstorm is vastly superior to portent and should never be replaced.

[Adan]

I'm using Portent instead of Brainstorm in the deck. I would suggest doing the same.

NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, don't do that!

I could write the same thing I'd write into the Threshold-Thread, but jrp already mentioned a lot of reasons.

Brainstorm is essential for the deck because it does what it is supposed to do: Turning dead cards (i.e. cards you have multiple copies of stuck in your hand or toolbox cards ot lands) into more useful cards. And this is also possible at Instant-speed. Portent can't do that and that is why you should never cut Brainstorm from this deck under any circumstances.

[Dark_Cynic87]

NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, don't do that!


lmfao! You must have children?

anyway, was wondering what matchups you guys are siding the combo out for the man-plan, and exactly what creatures you guys use.

I know Goyf is a 4-of, and DC seems to be a popular addition, but I saw that Stiflenought is being used (I don't like this), and Tombstalker was mentioned (I'm a skeptical on this). Who's using what, and how well is it working?

I'm using 4 Goyf and 4 DC, that's all.

Pce,

--DC

[Adan]

lmfao! You must have children?

No. Well, I don't know of any. =/ It would be very strange, though, especially because I'm only 18 yrs old. And I want to spend my money for nerdy cardgames instead of diapers and baby-milk!


anyway, was wondering what matchups you guys are siding the combo out for the man-plan, and exactly what creatures you guys use.

I know Goyf is a 4-of, and DC seems to be a popular addition, but I saw that Stiflenought is being used (I don't like this), and Tombstalker was mentioned (I'm a skeptical on this). Who's using what, and how well is it working?

I'm using 4 Goyf and 4 DC, that's all.

Pce,

--DC

I would guess that the creatures come in most of the time against several decks as you have actually soemthing like a transformational sideboard.
Postboard you have the possibility to play UGb Threshold (crippled, but it works) which makes you less reliant on the combo you are a littlebit helpless against a postboard Gaea's Blessing.

Playing around Gaea's Blessing then needs a lot of setup. In addition to the combo you need either Lim Duls Vault, Trinket Mage or you simply topdeck the Crypt like you need it. THEN you can also win against Blessing.

But the clock consisting of Goyfs and Stalkers is very potent and I guess you could also dare to play the Stalkers together with Confidants as you generate a lot of CQ to avoid getting 8 damage into the face.

Not to mention that some decks can't deal with Stalker efficiently, especially if you can back it up with Counterbalance.

[Rush]

Playing Stalker + Force + DC in the same deck is catastrophic. Are you seriously kidding me Adan?
About Portent, it's at the very least a better option than Ponder. You sacrifice half a turn, but in return, you're given an extra control card if you need it.

[Nightmare]

Playing Stalker + Force + DC in the same deck is catastrophic. Are you seriously kidding me Adan?
About Portent, it's at the very least a better option than Ponder. You sacrifice half a turn, but in return, you're given an extra control card if you need it.Ponder is pretty much strictly better than Portent. You should be absolutely willing to sacrifice the ability to manipulate your opponent's deck in order to have the card in your hand now. It's not even a question.

As for the interaction of Bob and the man plan, read the first post. There's a reason I play 3/3. When Tombstalker comes in, Dark Confidant comes out.

[Rush]

I was well aware of that Nightmare, however, I've won many matches because I used Portent in a position where I could (and did) win and used it to stack my opponents deck so they had no response to what I was doing. Only once has it saved the combo, however, several times has it saved me when I was simply beatsticking my way to victory and they had answers (Swords, EE, Deed, etc.) on top of the deck, and I put them out of their reach for enough turns to beat them in the face for the win. Have you even tried Portent? And for that reason, why is getting it immediately so much better? I thought your aim in this deck was to win as soon as possible with as little resistance as possible. If that's the case, what's going to change if you draw the card the next turn? It would only matter on turns 3-4 which I'm usually (and I'm assuming you are too) setting up for the win. In that position, I would rather not look at my own deck, but rather stack my opponent's deck so that I can win, again, with as little resistance as possible. By the way, if you're trying to ponder for pieces of the combo, if it's already that late in the game, I've found it usually a lost cause to go for the combo immediately, and typically spend my time controlling the match until my opponent has exhausted all of their resources so that I can easily play the combo without having to worry about any answers, and in this case, Portent is still better. I cannot count the number of times I've won at 4 or lower life.

By the way, the thing the deck needs more than anything else is a small bit of life gain. Not much, but just about 3-4 extra life a game would make the deck far more brutal.

[Nightmare]

I don't really know how to refute the points you're trying to make without either sounding unreasonable or reconditioning you to play the deck the same way I do. If Portent is working out well for you, run it.

[Dark_Cynic87]

You must never ever see top in your meta, because otherwise this strategy wouldn't work. All they have to do is spin top and you've wasted a spell. If they play top, you have no argument as to this being better or even equal to Ponder.

I, for one, would never condone Portent over Ponder simply for this reason. It's usefulness in the way you are describing is absolutely nonsense to anyone whose meta runs any sort of CounterTop, FT, or any other random deck that sports the Top. Or their own sets of brainstorm and ponder.

What do you think you would like to run as lifegain? Let's at least address the topic. I think that if you maindeck 4x Goyf in tandem with at least some of each of your combo pieces then you would lose less life. I think Life-gain is useless as it gets you nowhere in respect to winning.

Pce,

--DC

[Rush]

Actually, no, my meta does not use Top, if it did, I'd play Ponder. As far as Life Gain, I don't know any card that would be worth running. I have been tempted to run Goyf main. Have you tried it DC?

[Dark_Cynic87]

Yes, I use Tarmogoyf, and it works, but I think I would rather use 4x of each combo piece. Goyf makes it too Threshy. And then I get bored.

I'm going to use Tombstalkers in the board. That sounds like a go. DC always be dropped (obv) when siding them in. I hate running DC without a top in play...It makes me mad when I don't have my Top down and I hit a Force. -5 to the dome is lousy...especially with the added -1 just to use it. Ouch. I guess that's the nature of the beast. Not that it happens a lot, I'm just being a whiney-ass.

About Gaea's Blessing...I hate that card. How is it best beat? Explain how I use Tormod's Crypt. Is this how it works?:

ME: 3, tap Grindstone, mill them. Hit blessing. Blessing Triggers, you finish milling(?; This part is grey for me, although I'm not sure it matters as to how much I know exactly, but rather the end result. Feel free to tell me accurately), response, activate crypt. It resolves, removing Blessing and graveyard. You win. Forgive me if I'm way off, but I'm no judge, and I haven't played this in anything bigger than a small FNM-like environment. Please enlighten me (Oh, and I've never actually run INTO Gaea's Blessing...)

Pce,

--DC

[Nightmare]

ME: 3, tap Grindstone, mill them. Hit blessing. Blessing Triggers, you finish milling(?; This part is grey for me, although I'm not sure it matters as to how much I know exactly, but rather the end result. Feel free to tell me accurately), response, activate crypt. It resolves, removing Blessing and graveyard. You win. Forgive me if I'm way off, but I'm no judge, and I haven't played this in anything bigger than a small FNM-like environment. Please enlighten me (Oh, and I've never actually run INTO Gaea's Blessing...)

Pce,

--DC

That's exactly how it works. You allow the resolution of the mill to happen, then, with the trigger from Blessing still on the stack, you Crypt them. This is possible no matter how many Blessings they run. Then, the trigger resolves, they shuffle nothing into their library, and still lose.

[Adan]

ME: 3, tap Grindstone, mill them. Hit blessing. Blessing Triggers, you finish milling(?; This part is grey for me, although I'm not sure it matters as to how much I know exactly, but rather the end result. Feel free to tell me accurately), response, activate crypt. It resolves, removing Blessing and graveyard. You win.

Absoluteley.

You mill him, milling his entire deck into the graveyard as the repetition of the process is a part of the resolution. After the Grindstone resolved - the opponent's deck is in the yard - Blessing triggers. In response you crypt him and then he shuffles his no more existent graveyard into his deck.

edit: Didn't see Nightmare's post, wtf...

That is actually the 2nd point I like about EPIC Painter, it does not lose to Gaea's Blessing compaired to Imperial Painter which has got like 0 outs for it, except Faerie Macabres (you have to try it again the next turn then).

Thanks to Goyf and Stalker, EPIC Painter has got a better man-plan than Imperial Painter.

[ReverentChastity]

I've been fiddling with decks very very similar (almost the exact same) since I saw Painter's servant on the spoiler, just want to point out a fun tip of using top + grindstone on yourself to dig for painter or answers in a tight situation.

[Dark_Cynic87]

While on trix, remember that Academy Ruins can be VERY useful in the mirror.

Man, I love this deck. I'm so glad I didn't waste >$400 on a set of Recruiters just to play a painter list.

[darkalucard]

I would just like to say that I have played against this deck a few times and so have a few of my friends (all in recent tournaments by adam or matt) and this is my take on the deck.

It always comes down to:
A: Will I get good blind Counterbalance Flips with Trinket Mage, etc?
B: Will I make good top decks?
C: Will you opponent draw nothing relevant?
D: Will your opponent getting mana screwed?

The answer is YES.

This deck is beyond me, I don't know who blessed it or what Nightmare is up to but this deck is sketchy lol.

I guess Trinket Mage FTW!

[Nightmare]

So, the most significant change to this deck as of Shards is the inclusion of Executioner's Capsule to the MD, which should, I believe, replace the Tormod's Crypt. I'm not excited about the hit we take in game 1 vs. Ichorid, but I think we can make up for that in the sideboard. The addition of a permanent answer to Goyf that is tutorable and recurrable, and doesn't kill our own Bobs, Goyfs, and Painters, is fine by me.

[Dark_Cynic87]

I won't be doing that as I see Ichorid. A lot.

Pce,

--DC

[whienot]

3 more top 8's for EPIC Painter.

1st of 46 (http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?event=%241k+Legacy+Binghamton+09%2F08)

8th of 52 (http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?event=Legacy+Finale+Emilia+09%2F08)

3rd of 62 (http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?event=Magic-League+Legacy+Trial+30.09.)

Looks like it's well on its way DtB status.

[Bryant Cook]

3 more top 8's for EPIC Painter.

1st of 46 (http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?event=%241k+Legacy+Binghamton+09%2F08)

8th of 52 (http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?event=Legacy+Finale+Emilia+09%2F08)

3rd of 62 (http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?event=Magic-League+Legacy+Trial+30.09.)

Looks like it's well on its way DtB status.

You guys can thank Colin and me later.

[Dark_Cynic87]

That actually kinda figures...

Congrats/Thx/dammit.

Pce,

--DC

[Unknown13]

You guys can thank Colin and me later.

And you guys can thank me for making you look good over and over again later.

-Matt

[Nightmare]

And you guys can thank me for making you look good over and over again later.

-Matt

<3

[Wargoos]

Played a local tourney today, but havn't reached top8.
We were about 50 people.
Played first game against Glimpse Elves (srsly wtf?!) - won 2-0.
Second game was against Elves (....) lost 1-2. That was just too much, CB wasn't enough to stop them, and TS just not good enough. I'm really missing deed.
Third game: MUC. This one was funny, first match was combo win. Second i got beaten by my own goyf, lost this one cuz i was just too bad. But i won the 3rd round 3 with combo.
4th: One of my mates with survival. haven't finished this one , so it was a draw.
5th and last game was vs. Goyf Sligh- This one was very tricky. We wen't like 1-1 and in the 3rd game i had a tombstalker on board and beat him to 9. Then comboed him. In his upkeep he goes off with: Price (for 8), Bolt, Blast and Price again. I couldn't stop him, because my CB revealed blindly a hydroblast for hist last price, when i was on 1 - he won at 1 life.

Impressions: I 've seen a lot of Goyf Sligh (3colored with w for nacatl. wtf?!) and pretty much control. Unlucky i went 2-2-1, but i think, if i would play better i could've done 4-1 at least (no chance vs. elves .....omg..).
Deck is very good to play and i like it a lot, even when others told me that i should just cut the whole comboplan and go aggro..
So far

[Ch@os]

Yay, very nice tournament.
Ive played a UGB painterlist without Lim-Dul's Vault, instead the Goyfs main.
And -1xPonder -1x Thoughtseize -1x Grindstone +2x Smother + 1x Executioner's Capsul.
I dont know if it belongs in this Thread but it worked very well, 8th place.

first game:
Against It's The Fear, i misplayed some things -> draw

second game:
Against white weenie, good deck but not good enough, my SB 3x Engineered Plague helped a lot. -> 2:1

third game:
Against 10 land stompy :really:, CB, Smother, and some Goyfs go all the way. -> 2:0

fourth game:
Against Goyf Sligh, 1x combo out fast and second game Goyf beatdown with counterbackup -> 2:0

fifth game:
Against fearie survival, first match i win because he spended his removal on 2x Painter and a Confidant, two Goyfs go all the way.
2.& 3. match i lost to manaflood and some really shitty draws. 1:2

[zer0style]

I threw this together and have been testing it a bit lately however much I could. It looks very promising, and is a very strong deck, good stuff :)

[carlitobunz]

I guess you can add another top 8 under the belt of the deck. Such a blast to play and what a miser's deck. How can you not love yourself after getting lucky so much with this deck. Thx Nightmare, was a good time!

[MrSoze]

No one has touched this thread for awhile, but there's something I've been kicking around in this deck, hell, pretty much in all my painter builds - Reap.

For those that are as old as me, there was a deck a long time ago called ReapLace, which used Reap and Deathlace to loop an infinite combo to kill the opponent. I've looked at the deck for Legacy, but there are more efficient combo decks out there that don't use as many zones and aren't as ridiculously disruptable. The deck was never really that competitive anyway.

On the other hand, I think that Reap may have some enormous value as a utility card in the new painter decks. I've cast it multiple times to return Force of Wills, Vaults, Brainstorms and Ponders to my hand to continue the cycling potential of the EPIC Painter deck.

The potential to cast Servant/Reap and return 6 or more cards to hand is tremendous, and I have been exceptionally pleased so far. However, I don't think that I'm really testing against the best Legacy players, so I'm throwing it out there for you all to pick apart.

[socialite]

No one has touched this thread for awhile, but there's something I've been kicking around in this deck, hell, pretty much in all my painter builds - Reap.

For those that are as old as me, there was a deck a long time ago called ReapLace, which used Reap and Deathlace to loop an infinite combo to kill the opponent. I've looked at the deck for Legacy, but there are more efficient combo decks out there that don't use as many zones and aren't as ridiculously disruptable. The deck was never really that competitive anyway.

On the other hand, I think that Reap may have some enormous value as a utility card in the new painter decks. I've cast it multiple times to return Force of Wills, Vaults, Brainstorms and Ponders to my hand to continue the cycling potential of the EPIC Painter deck.

The potential to cast Servant/Reap and return 6 or more cards to hand is tremendous, and I have been exceptionally pleased so far. However, I don't think that I'm really testing against the best Legacy players, so I'm throwing it out there for you all to pick apart.

If you have a Painter's Servant out why not just win. This card seems like the epitome of win more.

[Wobbles The Goose]

Reap has been suggested as a sideboard card before, but it doesn't do anything on it's own and it doesn't win the game like grindstone. It'd be a fine sb choice against a black deck where you could already cast it for profit, and if your meta has a lot of those I'd say go for it. But more often then not the only black permanent most black decks are going to have will be a single tombstalker and they will be beating you to death with it and a tarmogoyf. Then it's not so good.

[jazzykat]

I've been testing this deck a bit, and my initial impression is that you are a slow combo deck first game and you are a 1/2 combo and 1/2 aggo-control deck second game where it feels like you aren't that good at either.

Can someone with more experience layout how to deal with this deck's flexibility. I am used to playing Dreadstill so I know about multi role decks but I can't put my finger on this one yet.

[Concallesco]

Sorry for the resurrection of a dying (and probably dead) thread, but I just have a question regarding this deck. Why isn't it seeing more discussion/play? It seems really solid: A 2-card combo that is easily tutored, requires colorless mana and is protected by FoW, CounterTop, and all that nice black and blue disruption. Plus the nice back-up plan from the board.

[Brushwagg]

Can someone with more experience layout how to deal with this deck's flexibility. I am used to playing Dreadstill so I know about multi role decks but I can't put my finger on this one yet

Basically you play it like Black NQG until you combo out G1. G2. is where it gets interesting. The best plan is to pick you whole SB up and shuffle it in so you opponent doesn't know which plan you going with. See below:

Plan 1: Take most if not all the combo out and bring in Goyf and Stalker.

Plan 2: Change almost nothing. Maybe bring in Goyfs.

Plan 3: Change nothing at all.


Sorry for the resurrection of a dying (and probably dead) thread, but I just have a question regarding this deck. Why isn't it seeing more discussion/play?

Well it's still seeing play. See the Source Tourney. As far as discussion what is there really left to say. Execution's Capsule is the last thing the deck got and everyone pretty much says its an auto include (unless you have alot of Ichorid in your meta).

[Choobak]

Hello,

If there is some player who drive this deck i'd like some advices to how manage MU. What is your plan against thoses deck :
- Gob;
- Elves (ball and survival);
- Thresh UGr;
- ANT;
- Ichorid;
- Faeries;
- Dragon stompy;
- afownity.

Thanks a lot !

[Choobak]

No body plays the deck ? No body can answer me ?

[b4r0n]

Hello,

If there is some player who drive this deck i'd like some advices to how manage MU. What is your plan against thoses deck :
- Gob;
- Elves (ball and survival);
- Thresh UGr;
- ANT;
- Ichorid;
- Faeries;
- Dragon stompy;
- afownity.

Thanks a lot !

Goblins: Preboard, combo as quickly as you can. Postboard, you bring in the man plan and stomp them.

Elves: Counterbalance is really good, and will let you play control until you combo them out. Games 2 and 3 are similar, but you need to watch out for Krosan Grip and/or Choke.

Thresh: Again, Counterbalance is really good. Take control of the game and eventually combo out. Postboard the combo comes out for the man plan.

ANT: Counterbalance. Combo. Repeat ad nauseam (lol see what i did there?).

Ichorid: You probably lose this one unless you get the turn 3 win or can disrupt them heavily via Thoughtseize/Force. Postboard isn't much better, but you get Crypts to slow them down.

Faeries: Is that actually a deck?

Dragon Stompy: Your combo is entirely colorless, so while Moon effects may shut down the rest of your deck, they won't prevent you from winning. Chalice, on the other hand, is a problem. Postboard, you have Grip and Explosives, which help somewhat.

Afownity: I haven't played against Afownity, but I would imagine that you just want to assemble the combo quickly, avoiding countermagic via Thoughtseize/Force. Grips seem like they'd be pretty good postboard. I'm not sure whether I would side out the combo or not, but I'd probably bring in the Goyfs.

[nitewolf9]

Afownity: I haven't played against Afownity, but I would imagine that you just want to assemble the combo quickly, avoiding countermagic via Thoughtseize/Force.

http://www.liamneeson.info/images/links.jpg

[Choobak]

Thank you for your help.

I'll try the deck in tournament next saturday and will give you my sensation with it.
I will play this SB :

4 tarmogoyf
3 tombstalker
2 Krosan grip
1 Tormod's
1 relic of progenitus
3 hydroblast
1 EE

And MD, I put -1 ponder +1 DC and use execusioner to replace tormod.

[Choobak]

A new question about a MU i played : U-stax.

What is your SB plan here and for W-stax ?

I try to stay in combo mode, because he plays with control magic, but is it the good idea ?

[Mono_Thematic]

What do ya' think of dis?

Mainboard:
4x Transmute Artifact
4x Bottle Gnomes
4x Tidehollow Strix

Combo? Bombo? Oh-God-No?
-Mono

[Choobak]

What do ya' think of dis?

Mainboard:
4x Transmute Artifact
4x Bottle Gnomes
4x Tidehollow Strix

Combo? Bombo? Oh-God-No?
-Mono

=> []

Thanks.

[GoldenCid]

Here is the list i'm testing. Comments and suggestions are welcome!


// Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
10 [LRW] Island (3)
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Volcanic Island

// Creatures
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
4 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
2 [LRW] Ponder
1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [TE] Grindstone
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [IA] Pyroblast
3 [U] Red Elemental Blast
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [AP] Fire/Ice
4 [NE] Daze

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [10E] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [TO] Llawan, Cephalid Empress

[JeroenC]

Isn't that quite different from the original deck? I thought the transformational sideboard was one of the defining qualities of the deck?

[GoldenCid]

Isn't that quite different from the original deck? I thought the transformational sideboard was one of the defining qualities of the deck?

I'm not sure if it's a good idea to shift the win condition post board...

[Maggical]

I'm trying this deck today in a local league I'm organizing, I'll let you know how it goes... The decklist would be:

4 Polluted delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Academy Ruins
3 Island

2 Trinket Mage
4 Painter's Servant
3 Dark Confidant
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstrom
4 Ponder
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Diving Top
3 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Grindstone
4 Thoughtseize
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Echoing Truth
1 Tormod's Crypt

SB:
1x Tormod's Crypt
3x Krosan Grip
3x Propaganda
1x Engineered Explosives
3x Energy Flux
3x Divert
1x Executioner's Capsule

I don't have the 4x Tarmogoyf yet, that's why I changed the sideboard a little bit... In my meta there's a lot of Affinity decks, that's why the Energy Flux are there... Divert is against B/W discard decks...

Let me know...

Javier

[Maggical]

Oh, and what would you side in against CounterTop and how?

[Brushwagg]

You might want to look at the Next Level Painter thread. That's had the most recent activity.

[Maggical]

You might want to look at the Next Level Painter thread. That's had the most recent activity.

Yeah, I know, but the thing is that since I don't have the Tarmogoyfs yet I prefer this build...

Javier

[jazzykat]

Energy flux is not a combo with grindstone painter. You may want to use Rebuild.

[Maggical]

Energy flux is not a combo with grindstone painter. You may want to use Rebuild.

Against a Affinity deck dropping that card on turn 3 just destroys almost every card in their board the next turn...

You just play the combo the turn you win (usually turn 6 with 6 mana) and ready...

That's my line of thought...

Javier

[beastman]

How many people in your meta play affinity?

[Maggical]

How many people in your meta play affinity?

Well, we are playing a league of around 10-12 every week and there are 3 Affinity decks there... That's plenty...

[beastman]

Honestly, spell snare is one of the best cards against affinity. As it hits both ravager and plating, the only really scary cards they have. Snare is much more versatile than flux as well. I'd give that a try over flux first.

[Maggical]

Well, I only lost vs Affinity :S Never draw an Energy Flux... :S