[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

[Azdraël]

Cunning Wish seems to be a good element in a Ledless version.
U can play it quite quickly with the amount of possible mana source in a ledless version so as the speed of the deck is not that much slowed down.
It can tutorize for Nauseam/Angel grace/PoN/Hurkyl/Grip/Wipe Away/Slaughter Pact...it enables to run at least 2 copies of Nauseam, without taking the risk to take -5 on a resolved Nauseam. And if you are too low on PV, just wish for Angel grace!

Well I've given a go for it and will tell u what it is like pretty soon.

[Nidd]

I can't decide which version of Storm Combo can rise up and take the heritage of ANT...
TES, NLS, Spanish Inquisition, Fetchland Tendrils or that Doomsday Brew featuring Emrakul...
Burning Wish seems to be a strong spell which could be the answer to our problem. But ANT is dead, no doubt. It is far less consistent now without MT.

[xTrainx]

I'm thinking that some build of it will take up the call; probably something with Burning Wish in it - the Emrakul brew is way to weak against Wasteland. Some sort of Doomsday deck could rise up to the challenge; and TES also seems like a strong build.

3x Doomsday, and then 3x Burning Wish, with 4x LED and 3x IT; and a Doomsday in the board that is wishable. With Rituals; getting to ten storm would be fairly easy. It could goldfish fairly early: a sample hand...

Duress, Doomsday, Underground Sea, Top, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Fetchland.

You play Sea and Top, fetch, and Dark Rit, Dark Rit, Cabal Rit, Doomsday, 4B Floating, flip Top, tap the land you fetched and play Meditate - Dark Rit, Dark Rit, Petal, Top(again), play Tendrils.

You could also wait another turn to go off with Duress protection.

Storm combo is definitely NOT dead.

[Dia_Bot]

Storm combo is definitely NOT dead.

Agreed. Only Ad nauseam is dead. NLS, TES and DDGO certainly aren't.

[Rico Suave]

wuhh?? TES and NLS aren't good? TES and NLS are good exactly because they are resilient (consistency with these decks is primarily an issue of skill level). DD piles redefined resilience in storm combo, and Burning Wish in both decks provides many outs when dealing with hate. Sure Mystical Tutor was a piece of work at finding post-board answers like Krosan Grip. Even so, neither deck died from the MT ban and both are known for being more resilient than your typical storm combo --> ANT. I'm glad ANT is gone. It was just storm combo for dumbies. Now storm will return to being the harder archetype to master (IMO thats the way it should be).

TES and NLS are not resilient. You don't have to look past the mana base to realize how vulnerable those decks are to disruption. They are, quite simply, bad.

And like my last post, you are confusing "hard to win with" and "hard to play." ANT was easy to do well with, but in order to play optimally it was just as difficult as any other storm deck. I know this thread is full of people who like to think playing a difficult deck adds inches to their dick, but let's be honest - cards like B.Wish don't make your deck harder to play than a deck with M.Tutor, they make it worse.

[Vacrix]

I can't decide which version of Storm Combo can rise up and take the heritage of ANT...
TES, NLS, Spanish Inquisition, Fetchland Tendrils or that Doomsday Brew featuring Emrakul...
Burning Wish seems to be a strong spell which could be the answer to our problem. But ANT is dead, no doubt. It is far less consistent now without MT.
I think each of those will fill its own nitch. Each one has slightly different matchup percentages against different decks. SI is extremely strong in an aggro and combo heavy meta, but the others are a stronger choice as the frequency of U.dec increases. At least these old-school decks will get some attention.


Cunning Wish seems to be a good element in a Ledless version.
U can play it quite quickly with the amount of possible mana source in a ledless version so as the speed of the deck is not that much slowed down.
It can tutorize for Nauseam/Angel grace/PoN/Hurkyl/Grip/Wipe Away/Slaughter Pact...it enables to run at least 2 copies of Nauseam, without taking the risk to take -5 on a resolved Nauseam. And if you are too low on PV, just wish for Angel grace!

Well I've given a go for it and will tell u what it is like pretty soon.
That seems too slow man. Also, Cunning Wish + LED --> Ad Nausuem is a pretty badass play. Even so, I think its too slow. At the point when you are Cunning Wish for AdN, you might as well be playing Solidarity which abuses Cunning Wish more effectively.


TES and NLS are not resilient. You don't have to look past the mana base to realize how vulnerable those decks are to disruption. They are, quite simply, bad.

And like my last post, you are confusing "hard to win with" and "hard to play." ANT was easy to do well with, but in order to play optimally it was just as difficult as any other storm deck. I know this thread is full of people who like to think playing a difficult deck adds inches to their dick, but let's be honest - cards like B.Wish don't make your deck harder to play than a deck with M.Tutor, they make it worse.
Ah they are quite simply bad. I forgot, Bryant Cook and Emidln have no idea what they are talking about, but you do.

Ok seriously? Sure the manabase is a little vulnerable; however, NLS plays basics (Island and Swamp) and can therefore play around Wasteland. NLS also plays SDT, which, combined with fetches, allows you to shape the hand you need to win against whatever disruption you expect to encounter. NLS plays 15-17 land, which allows it to hit the land drops it needs to make multiple attempts at a lethal spell chain. Lists sometimes splash white for Orim's Chant. NLS is basically a slower version of ANT that has a much easier time fighting through hate because it has a variety of options that ANT does not have. TES might have the weaker mana base. I've never seen a list with basics but even so, the deck can deal with a little baseruption. It plays 12-14 land and multiple cantrips. Why is that vulnerable? TES doesn't need that many lands to go off. Also, BW is much more powerful than you give credit. It can find a protection spell, removal for hatebears, or multiple kill conditions.

Could you elaborate on this disruption that neither TES nor NLS apparently cannot deal with? I can't see it. Also, how was ANT any better at dealing with disruption than these 2 decks?


Also, thats bullshit. The decision tree for ANT was not very big. Please play with Doomsday and then tell me its just as hard to play optimally. ANT is practically Belcher.

[emidln]

The manabase of NLS is 8 fetches, 5 duals, 2 basics. The manabase of UB Saito ANT was 5 duals, 1 basic, 8 fetches, and 2 city of traitors. [Snip]

Full warning for flaming. - Bardo

[Rico Suave]

TES has a terrible mana base. NLS has a fine mana base, but it has other issues.

The biggest problem arises in that any storm combo deck which could reasonably beat blue while still being fast relied very heavily on M.Tutor. This isn't necessarily because M.Tutor was that great against blue, but in large part because M.Tutor allowed the deck to "cheat" by finding Dark Ritual.

ANT was the clear leader of these M.Tutor storm combo decks, but NLS falls into a similar trap. It can adjust to beat aggro, or adjust to try and beat blue, but it will never reach a point where it beats aggro and maintains a respectable blue match without M.Tutor.

There is no replacement for M.Tutor. There is no substitute. By the time a storm deck adjusts to no M.Tutor, it will be slower and less consistent and less resilient. It will be worse against aggro, and worse against control. By the time it readjusts to beat aggro, it will be a lot worse against control.

B.Wish is OK. It's a step in the right direction, but it wasn't cutting it before when M.Tutor was unbanned and it hasn't gotten any better since then.

[Vacrix]

TES has a terrible mana base. NLS has a fine mana base, but it has other issues.

The biggest problem arises in that any storm combo deck which could reasonably beat blue while still being fast relied very heavily on M.Tutor. This isn't necessarily because M.Tutor was that great against blue, but in large part because M.Tutor allowed the deck to "cheat" by finding Dark Ritual.

ANT was the clear leader of these M.Tutor storm combo decks, but NLS falls into a similar trap. It can adjust to beat aggro, or adjust to try and beat blue, but it will never reach a point where it beats aggro and maintains a respectable blue match without M.Tutor.

There is no replacement for M.Tutor. There is no substitute. By the time a storm deck adjusts to no M.Tutor, it will be slower and less consistent and less resilient. It will be worse against aggro, and worse against control. By the time it readjusts to beat aggro, it will be a lot worse against control.

B.Wish is OK. It's a step in the right direction, but it wasn't cutting it before when M.Tutor was unbanned and it hasn't gotten any better since then.
Well thats not entirely true. Not all storm combo relied on M.Tutor to beat blue. Solidarity beats the living shit out of blue and doesn't rely on M.Tutor at all.

Also, TES didn't really rely on Mystical Tutor. TES only plays 2 ATM and it gets sided out all the time. NLS can adapt too: keep in mind that the meta isn't going to remain the way it is now. Mid-range strategies are likely going to see more play and countertop will see significantly less play now that the matchups it feasted upon will be much less frequent. Aggro will also have to adapt to the changing meta game. Storm combo will have to adapt to THAT metagame, not the one we have right now. If that is, in fact, the case, then neither NLS or TES will necessarily need M.Tutor to beat blue. I used to play SI and beat the shit out of blue with my board. Then ANT came along and fucked my shit up. Everyone started playing way more combo hate because the frequency of combo decks increased significantly. Also, with an increase in combo decks came an increase in the matchups I don't like to see. A reduction in the number of combo decks is good for dedicated combo players. Now we won't randomly run into that one guy that has 15 cards devoted to his combo matchup.

[Aleksandr]

The problem with storm combo in Legacy has always been a spectrum of resilience and speed. Imagine a continuum like this:

Fast<------------------------------------------------>Resilient

Looking at our spectrum:

<---------------------->

Losing M.Tutor does not push it left or right. It pushes it down.

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1) There is difficulty in winning with a deck, and difficulty in piloting a deck. For example it's very easy to pilot a 60Island.dec, but very difficult to win with it; and I think a lot of people get confused when talking about decks that are difficult to win with and mistakenly assume they are difficult to pilot.


And like my last post, you are confusing "hard to win with" and "hard to play." ANT was easy to do well with, but in order to play optimally it was just as difficult as any other storm deck. I know this thread is full of people who like to think playing a difficult deck adds inches to their dick, but let's be honest - cards like B.Wish don't make your deck harder to play than a deck with M.Tutor, they make it worse.


B.Wish is OK. It's a step in the right direction, but it wasn't cutting it before when M.Tutor was unbanned and it hasn't gotten any better since then.

This gentleman says the truth, no sarcasm.

I really have to rethink why to play combo anymore, when most of what made it appealling for me is lost.

1) No more we have the fastest decks (Zoo on play and Dredge even on the draw can be faster)
2) No more we have the most resilient deck.
3) No more we have the most flexible deck.
4) The deck is much more harder to play.
5) Doomsday =/= AdN

Otoh:
1) Much less combo means much less hate.
2) Anything else?

[Vacrix]

I really have to rethink why to play combo anymore, when most of what that made it appealling for me is lost.

1) No more we have the fastest decks (Zoo on play and Dredge even on the draw can be faster)
2) No more we have the most resilient deck.
3) No more we have the most flexible deck.
4) The deck is much more harder to play.
5) Doomsday =/= AdN

Otoh:
1) Much less combo means much less hate.
2) Anything else?
Combo is still the fastest option. SI was not affected by the ban and has been the fastest deck in the format since it originated.
ANT was resilient?
ANT was flexible?
What's wrong with a deck being hard to play? The current storm combo options might be significantly harder to play than ANT, but those decks reflect your ability as a player. I don't know about you but I prefer to play decks that reflect my ability as a player, rather than playing a good deck thats easy to pilot.


2) Anything else?
The metagame is going to change, likely in aggro's favor. I think DnT is going to be the strongest decks in the format with less Reanimator and ANT in floating around. We will have to see what gets popular to determine how everything is shifting though.

I must say. Its pretty fucking ironic that Reanimator and ANT got moved to the DTB forum, only to get completely nerfed in the same week.

[Aleksandr]

Yes, ANT was both resilient and flexible, mainly due to MT that found exactly the one card you needed, be it protestion, removal, mana ramp or bomb, while simmultaneously hiding that card safely where it could not be Duressed. I think you already know it.

What's wrong with a deck being hard to play? If you put the question like this, well, than reread what RS wrote. It is not about decks been harder. It's about decks been worse. I am yet to find if his analysis is true, but right now I fear that it is. And as long as the only reward is less anti-combo hate, than I really have to think if I wanna play combo. Not that it matters that much for you, it's just my line of thoughts, feel free to ignore me and play whatever you want to. In all honesty, no flame at all.

Also: gl hf playing 7+ rounds with non-ANT storm. Not everyone loves that headaches.

[Morim_Brightsmoke]

Quick question, has anyone slotted in Peer through Depths or Impulse into the MT slots. I realize they are obviously not as strong but with enough cantrips to get through the deck (4 brainstorm 3 SDT 2 Ponder 4 Impulse/Peer) it might still be almost as consistent though admittedly slower.

[practical joke]

If you start casting 2 mana cards to find something you might as well start using lim-duls vault. then at least you know how painfull the ad naseaum is going to be at start.

If you desire more cantrips wait untill M11 and get a set of preordain ( scry 2, then draw a card)

[Lord_Cyrus]

Lim Dul's Vault actually doesn't seem like a bad option. It hits what this deck wants to do: play 2 Ad Nauseam and still find them reliably. Whether or not the lifeloss will be overwhelming is still a good question...

I still think Ad Nauseam is the best "I win" card for storm yet printed. I just tried a few of the SI variants, and they seem outstandingly bad by comparison. Draw 4's are a complete crapshoot, and making 6 mana to play 2 Cruel Bargains costs by comparison more life and seems to be less reliable at winning the game.

[JonBarber]

Lim Dul's Vault actually doesn't seem like a bad option. It hits what this deck wants to do: play 2 Ad Nauseam and still find them reliably. Whether or not the lifeloss will be overwhelming is still a good question...

I still think Ad Nauseam is the best "I win" card for storm yet printed. I just tried a few of the SI variants, and they seem outstandingly bad by comparison. Draw 4's are a complete crapshoot, and making 6 mana to play 2 Cruel Bargains costs by comparison more life and seems to be less reliable at winning the game.

I'd rather play Belcher before SI. At least with belcher I can look at my hand and know if I'm going to win or lose (assuming they don't have force >.<)

[Lord_Cyrus]

I'd rather play Belcher before SI. At least with belcher I can look at my hand and know if I'm going to win or lose (assuming they don't have force >.<)

^^ This! Yikes SI makes my brain hurt. But it's not surprising that Draw4's seem so awful when you realize that Ad Nauseam basically reads (or used to read) 3BB: Draw 10-15 cards.

[Gocho]

New SI lists uses the new Draw up to 7 cards:
Diminishing Returns
Recurring Insight
Balance of Power
Slithermuse


7 initial cards + Chaining Draw 4 + Draw 7 must give you enough mana to 10+ storm. Anyway I don't test it yet.

[Vacrix]

I'd rather play Belcher before SI. At least with belcher I can look at my hand and know if I'm going to win or lose (assuming they don't have force >.<)
I can look at my hand and know if I'm going to win or lose playing Pact SI. You probably can't because you aren't an SI pilot.


I just tried a few of the SI variants, and they seem outstandingly bad by comparison. Draw 4's are a complete crapshoot, and making 6 mana to play 2 Cruel Bargains costs by comparison more life and seems to be less reliable at winning the game.
You can't win consistently with AdN from 8 life. D4s allow you to go off from life totals that AdN can only have wet dreams about because you are cutting your life total in half instead of paying life. Also, no deck can mulligan better than SI because of redundant D4's. Theoretically you can go off and win on turn 1 with just 3 cards. I go off on turn 1 with 5 cards all the time.
Its understandable that you think the D4 engine is unreliable. You aren't an SI pilot. I have yet to talk to someone who just randomly picked up SI and said 'Shit! This deck is awesome and consistent!' I think it is consistent because I play it all the time. You don't because you just picked it up.. and then dropped it. For the record, I couldn't goldfish SI for shit when I first started back in 06. I think it took me something like 20 games to start going off consistently within the first 5 turns. Its all about the mulligans. You ought to actually understand what you are doing before you pass judgement on it as a 'crapshoot'.


New SI lists uses the new Draw up to 7 cards:
Diminishing Returns
Recurring Insight
Balance of Power
Slithermuse


7 initial cards + Chaining Draw 4 + Draw 7 must give you enough mana to 10+ storm. Anyway I don't test it yet.
Yes still working on this but so far its only worked really well in SITES. Still working on a config for this in Pact SI. Slithermuse is amazing though.

[Lord_Cyrus]

Vacrix, my judgement is probably a little too harsh. But I think the Draw7's show a lot more potential - 6-7 cards for 3U is insane. I'll wait for you experienced SI players to build a better list incorporating Slithermuse and/or Diminishing Returns and then try again at that point. In hindsight, most of my failures probably did have to do with not understanding the correct mix of cards I need in my hand before trying to go off. But if I can't understand this in the course of 10 games or so, after playing all sorts of combo decks for years, I think we can agree that the current versions of SI will never appeal to the majority of people who enjoyed playing ANT.

I still feel like this is the real loss from MT - the loss of joy for all the happy combo players out there, who while much maligned, did their part to keep the format stable and honest.

So, in short, all the best to you brave souls trying to keep Storm in Legacy alive, and I will reserve my judgements until I can try an updated list.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Combo is far from dead, except now it requires that you actually put the time in to learn the deck. Between building crazy storm with TES, chaining draw4s together, or building Doomsday stacks, combo will thrive, but it will go back into the shadows again because of the time and patience it requires to play those decks.

[JonBarber]

Combo is far from dead, except now it requires that you actually put the time in to learn the deck. Between building crazy storm with TES, chaining draw4s together, or building Doomsday stacks, combo will thrive, but it will go back into the shadows again because of the time and patience it requires to play those decks.

I feel like ANT got a bad wrap. There were still a lot of really skilled ANT players. Like any deck, it requires a certain level of skill to truly pilot the deck. Its really frustrating when you put in all the time and effort into learning the deck really well, only to have wizards kill it. Yes I could go and devote another 6 months to a deck, but it sucks to start all over. Once the dust settles I'll probably begin to learn another storm deck, but for the mean time, I'm just gonna belch people :)

[Vacrix]

The problem with ANT was that it was way too intuitive. I started playing combo back in 06 piloting old school SI. After mastering SI, it only took me a day to learn how to pilot Solidarity well. Playing harder combo made decks a deck like TES really easy to learn, and ANT and Belcher was a joke. NLS was a bitch to learn since DD piles were so foreign but still familiarizing yourself with complex spell chains makes switching back and forth between combo decks very easy. Nobody is saying that ANT pilots aren't skilled. Rather, ANT pilots had much less work to do to master their deck. Naturally its going to be harder for you guys to change to a combo deck that isn't just Belcher.

@Lord Cyrus
You aren't the only one who has trouble playing SI. At this point, I think I'm just going to record some games (like Matt did for UWT) to show people how the deck works. D7's are indeed promising but the D4 engine is the best choice you have in the format now if you want to draw a bunch of cards into Tendrils of Agony. If you'd prefer playing a deck that doesn't 'fizz' play TES or NLS. They are setup decks that abuse tutors rather than draw engines.

[Lord_Cyrus]

Thanks for the advice Vacrix. I'm now looking into TES and I have to say it immediately "clicks" a lot better for me. I feel comfortable crafting the right hand with the tutors, and then just knowing for sure I will win. I think my problems with SI have more to do with not properly understanding the engine and how to chain the Draw4's together properly. It's just such an alien playstyle for me that it puts me out of my comfort zone and then I start making bad mistakes.

Different decks for different pilots.

[Rico Suave]

I'd rather play SI before Belcher, but let's be honest: neither are good. They both suffer from the problem of being so narrow that they are unable to play a real game of magic. Anybody who is able to interact with you is likely to blow you out.

There are decks that allow its owner to show off skill, and decks that allow its owner win with skill. SI and Belcher are the former. A deck like ANT was closer to the latter, but without M.Tutor there are more attractive options for that.

[DragoFireheart]

Has anyone done any serious testing on Lim-Dul's Vault since the banning of Mystical Tutor? You also may want to pick some up now before they get expensive.

[Lord_Cyrus]

As I'm sure anybody who has played various older combo decks will tell you, the effect is very strong. What is particularly nice is the ability to stack your 5 cards any way you like at the end.

Nevertheless, major concerns are: Mixed casting cost, vulnerability to Daze and/or spell snare, life loss. Additionally it's a fairly intense skill testing card. You have to know how much life you can afford to lose, and when you've hit the right 5 card pile that will win.

Honestly I doubt these guys will ever get that high in $$ cost. It's a corner-case card that is only usable in certain decks under specific circumstances.

[Rico Suave]

LDV is awkward and clunky. It creates a lot of situations where you're clogged by your own set-up and slowed down tremendously.

Consider for instance a Zoo opener:
T1 - Nacatl
T2 - random 2 drop, swing for 3
T3 - swing for 5, Chain for 3 with Bolt in hand

If you're on the draw against Zoo, you get to cast LDV at a precarious 9 life without counting fetchlands and use that to fuel the LDV *and* a storm enabler. You're not running multiple IGGs, are you? Because not even Doomsday will save you from that situation with any consistency.

Before we used to be able to M.Tutor on turn 1 to set up a turn 2 kill. That is why the deck was successful against aggro. It wasn't just that we could maintain a high life total either, because frequently we could fan open a hand against Zoo on the play and know we can outrace their hate-bears too.

Now with LDV we are more vulnerable to their main plan, and more vulnerable to their hate too. M.Tutor made it a turn 2 deck often enough to be good against aggro, but LDV makes it a turn 3 deck pretty much all the time. Its casting cost is the primary drawback.

LDV is not a replacement for M.Tutor. It is bad when finding Ad Nauseam.

[Vacrix]

I'd rather play SI before Belcher, but let's be honest: neither are good. They both suffer from the problem of being so narrow that they are unable to play a real game of magic. Anybody who is able to interact with you is likely to blow you out.

There are decks that allow its owner to show off skill, and decks that allow its owner win with skill. SI and Belcher are the former. A deck like ANT was closer to the latter, but without M.Tutor there are more attractive options for that.
Let's be honest?
Ok. Which list are you referring to? It depends. Lumping all of them into one category is a mistake. QSI is dam good against control. The Pact list is not. I have a feeling you aren't too familiar with SI.

[Rico Suave]

I'm not going to touch the infinity subdivisions that are named retarded things like Super Next Bonus Level Eternal Spanish Inquisition Storm QSI version 2.3 part II with Pacts.

A deck with 2 lands is vastly different from a deck with 9 lands anyway. Nevertheless, the Pact list is obviously the one closest to Belcher and what drew the comparison above.

As for the other lists, I don't think they're good against disruptive decks. A deck like Merfolk would cream its pants if the opponent cast Meditate. My CB/Top with 0 and 1 on top is still going to blank a storm kill. And a hand like Force/Stifle/Waste from New Horizons is still going to wreck almost anything with 9 lands.

In fact, New Horizons is a great example. It was a deck that ANT was good enough to consistently 2-1 in a match. But it took a lot of stability in order to pull this off, and for me the matches were almost always very very close. Something like SI just can't hope to compete in this match regardless of which version.

I don't want this to all be pessimistic though. Were I to build a storm combo deck today, it would likely be built around Doomsday. It is not an engine like ANT was, but if you're looking just for a card that generates some extra storm then DD does it very nicely.

[Vacrix]

I'd rather play SI before Belcher, but let's be honest: neither are good. They both suffer from the problem of being so narrow that they are unable to play a real game of magic. Anybody who is able to interact with you is likely to blow you out.
If you wanted to make this comparison (Pact vs. Belcher), you are still wrong. Its not bad because its narrow. On the contrary, it is GOOD because it is narrow. My list in particular sacrifices disruption for speed, speed you have clearly taken for granted. People all over this site often say 'Well I have about a 40% chance of having the force'. Well I have a +60% turn 1 kills. In some playtesting pools, I've pushed 70% turn 1 kills (on the play). Those are good fucking odds. Besides, the Pact list doesn't just roll over and die when its first D4 gets countered. One of SI's strengths is that it requires very few resources to go off a second time. Petal, Rit, D4 is all thats necessary. There isn't a more explosive deck in the format. The fact that you dismiss it as bad bothers me. Sure if you FoW and then lay down CB, I'm done. If you have double FoW, I'm done. I'll concede that the deck is weak against FoW; however, you make it sound like the deck can't compete just cause it has problems with FoW. Is Land.dec 'bad' because it can't compete with Dark Ritual?

Also, if you were familiar with the list, you would know that QSI is good against Tempo based control. FoW/Stifle/Waste from New Horizons? Am I supposed to be afraid of that hand or something? You haven't even specified my hand, who is on the play, etc. What if I'm on the play and start with Chrome Mox, Cabal Therapy naming Force, flashback naming Stifle? That hand says fuck you to Tempo, especially when I go off the following turn with Land, Cabal Ritual, Contract. Meditate makes Merfolk creme its pants? Giving you an extra card and combat phase isn't going to stop 11 cards, especially when I can play Therapy + Flashback on that turn. Play the deck sir because you clearly haven't. Then we'll talk.

[anjo]

This deck performed really good online today:

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
14 lands

2 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Burning Wish
2 Cabal Ritual
3 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Ponder
4 Rite of Flame
3 Silence
1 Tendrils of Agony
46 other spells

Sideboard
1 Cleanfall
1 Deathmark
1 Echoing Truth
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Pyroclasm
2 Shattering Spree
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Thoughtseize
3 Xantid Swarm
15 sideboard cards

So it seems like we don't need MT to have a powerful deck, what do you guys think?

[Nidd]

Looks like TES, not like ANT.

[CephalidBreakfast]

How did you get that list so soon after the event? I thought they only posted the Daily Event decklists after a week?

[Rico Suave]

If you wanted to make this comparison (Pact vs. Belcher), you are still wrong. Its not bad because its narrow. On the contrary, it is GOOD because it is narrow. My list in particular sacrifices disruption for speed, speed you have clearly taken for granted. People all over this site often say 'Well I have about a 40% chance of having the force'. Well I have a +60% turn 1 kills. In some playtesting pools, I've pushed 70% turn 1 kills (on the play). Those are good fucking odds. Besides, the Pact list doesn't just roll over and die when its first D4 gets countered. One of SI's strengths is that it requires very few resources to go off a second time. Petal, Rit, D4 is all thats necessary. There isn't a more explosive deck in the format. The fact that you dismiss it as bad bothers me. Sure if you FoW and then lay down CB, I'm done. If you have double FoW, I'm done. I'll concede that the deck is weak against FoW; however, you make it sound like the deck can't compete just cause it has problems with FoW. Is Land.dec 'bad' because it can't compete with Dark Ritual?

Also, if you were familiar with the list, you would know that QSI is good against Tempo based control. FoW/Stifle/Waste from New Horizons? Am I supposed to be afraid of that hand or something? You haven't even specified my hand, who is on the play, etc. What if I'm on the play and start with Chrome Mox, Cabal Therapy naming Force, flashback naming Stifle? That hand says fuck you to Tempo, especially when I go off the following turn with Land, Cabal Ritual, Contract. Meditate makes Merfolk creme its pants? Giving you an extra card and combat phase isn't going to stop 11 cards, especially when I can play Therapy + Flashback on that turn. Play the deck sir because you clearly haven't. Then we'll talk.

It's quite clear we have differing views on the matter. So why don't you keep thinking whatever it is you want to think, and we won't clog this thread with an off topic discussion about a completely different deck.

[kooaznboi1088]

If you wanted to make this comparison (Pact vs. Belcher), you are still wrong. Its not bad because its narrow. On the contrary, it is GOOD because it is narrow. My list in particular sacrifices disruption for speed, speed you have clearly taken for granted. People all over this site often say 'Well I have about a 40% chance of having the force'. Well I have a +60% turn 1 kills. In some playtesting pools, I've pushed 70% turn 1 kills (on the play). Those are good fucking odds. Besides, the Pact list doesn't just roll over and die when its first D4 gets countered. One of SI's strengths is that it requires very few resources to go off a second time. Petal, Rit, D4 is all thats necessary. There isn't a more explosive deck in the format. The fact that you dismiss it as bad bothers me. Sure if you FoW and then lay down CB, I'm done. If you have double FoW, I'm done. I'll concede that the deck is weak against FoW; however, you make it sound like the deck can't compete just cause it has problems with FoW. Is Land.dec 'bad' because it can't compete with Dark Ritual?

Also, if you were familiar with the list, you would know that QSI is good against Tempo based control. FoW/Stifle/Waste from New Horizons? Am I supposed to be afraid of that hand or something? You haven't even specified my hand, who is on the play, etc. What if I'm on the play and start with Chrome Mox, Cabal Therapy naming Force, flashback naming Stifle? That hand says fuck you to Tempo, especially when I go off the following turn with Land, Cabal Ritual, Contract. Meditate makes Merfolk creme its pants? Giving you an extra card and combat phase isn't going to stop 11 cards, especially when I can play Therapy + Flashback on that turn. Play the deck sir because you clearly haven't. Then we'll talk.

Nice man, I really want to see your list now. I am wondering what I would do after July 1st. If your deck can get 70% turn 1 kills on the play, I really really really want to see it!

[Vacrix]

I said that I can. No guarentees that you will just pick up the list and goldfish it as well as I do. Its a really hard list to play. Just know that ahead of time before you get too excited. It not like ANT or Belcher where its practically auto-goldfish.
I agree with Rico. Come to the SI thread in Established for the list. Its called Pact SI.

[kooaznboi1088]

I said that I can. No guarentees that you will just pick up the list and goldfish it as well as I do. Its a really hard list to play. Just know that ahead of time before you get too excited. It not like ANT or Belcher where its practically auto-goldfish.
I agree with Rico. Come to the SI thread in Established for the list. Its called Pact SI.

I had a look at the list. Are you sure that Draw 4s are the best way to replace ANT after Mystical is gone? And in a format with Lightning Bolts?

[jrsthethird]

Against Zoo, you have to be on the draw, they need a red open, AND you need to play 3 D4 spells for Bolt to kill you.

If you're on the play, no chance for a land. If they play a land, chances are they will dump one of their 12 or so 1 drop creatures instead of saving mana for Bolt.

So Lightning Bolt isn't a factor for a deck that's supposed to win 60% on turn 1.

[Vacrix]

I had a look at the list. Are you sure that Draw 4s are the best way to replace ANT after Mystical is gone? And in a format with Lightning Bolts?
Replace ANT? Replace?

...

It was here first bub. In 06. ANT was derived from SI not the other way around. AdN was tried in SI before it was tried on its own. In a sense, I have a feeling that some ANT pilots will just change to QSI since its the easiest use of your Underground Seas.

Yes Bolt is in the format. You don't always have to play D4 (10), D4 (5), D4 (2). Sometimes that is the case. Other times you just drop Belcher and Belch. Other times.. you go for the IGG loop, other times you can just play your ToA. Also, this discussion is better suited for the SI forum bro.

[emidln]

There is little doubt in my mind that a Burning Wish/Infernal Tutor, possibly with LDV, maybe not, will be what the majority of ANT players replace ANT with if they keep playing storm. I'd actually assume more people keep playing Ad Nauseam or switch to a Fetchland Tendrils stye-deck with LDV than play SI.

[Lord_Cyrus]

There is little doubt in my mind that a Burning Wish/Infernal Tutor, possibly with LDV, maybe not, will be what the majority of ANT players replace ANT with if they keep playing storm. I'd actually assume more people keep playing Ad Nauseam or switch to a Fetchland Tendrils stye-deck with LDV than play SI.

Thank you for trying to restore some sanity to the thread Emidln. It's great to discuss SI and all, but barring a radical new list, SI will remain too complicated for most former ANT pilots to play competently. If you can play SI reliably, that's great, but for the rest of us, it's time to move on to discussing deck ideas that actually work for your "Average Joe Combo", even if they are not optimum.

[DarthVicious]

I've been testing Lim-Dul's Vault. Nice with Brainstorm. And it's an instant.

[Lord_Cyrus]

My only concern with LDV is, how much life, on average, are you spending to find Ad Nauseam for the win? If it's more than 4, I have a tough time seeing how the deck can survive Zoo, which was one of the premiere reasons to play the deck before.

[Vacrix]

There is little doubt in my mind that a Burning Wish/Infernal Tutor, possibly with LDV, maybe not, will be what the majority of ANT players replace ANT with if they keep playing storm. I'd actually assume more people keep playing Ad Nauseam or switch to a Fetchland Tendrils stye-deck with LDV than play SI.
Agreed.
Also, you should scope the IGGY Pop variant that Gocho is developing on the Stormboards. Its a really sick list, fairly easy to play.

[Aleksandr]

I play this:

4 delta
4 strand
3 Sea
1 tropical isl.
1 island
1Swamp

4 Brainstrom
4 ponder
4 dark ritual
4 LED
4 Lotus Peatl
4 mystical tutor
3 infernal tutor
1 IGG
1 ADN
2 tendrils of Agony
2 sdt
4 duress
2 Thoughtseize

sideboard is in constant flux, but mainly there are some tools against h8bears (pact of slaughter, Deathmark) and bothering artefacs - Rebuild.

What do you think?

[Lord_Cyrus]

Agreed.
Also, you should scope the IGGY Pop variant that Gocho is developing on the Stormboards. Its a really sick list, fairly easy to play.

Can you provide a link or a list? Never been there before...

[Vacrix]

Its Gocho's list so I'll wait for him to debut it here on TheSource. Its an invite only board so you wouldn't be able to see the link anyway until your application was approved.
Its good though. Easy to play and its fast. I think its the next ANT.

[Hanni]

I play this:

4 delta
4 strand
3 Sea
1 tropical isl.
1 island
1Swamp

4 Brainstrom
4 ponder
4 dark ritual
4 LED
4 Lotus Peatl
4 mystical tutor
3 infernal tutor
1 IGG
1 ADN
2 tendrils of Agony
2 sdt
4 duress
2 Thoughtseize

sideboard is in constant flux, but mainly there are some tools against h8bears (pact of slaughter, Deathmark) and bothering artefacs - Rebuild.

What do you think?

I got a good laugh from that. Thanks sir.

[DarthVicious]

My only concern with LDV is, how much life, on average, are you spending to find Ad Nauseam for the win? If it's more than 4, I have a tough time seeing how the deck can survive Zoo, which was one of the premiere reasons to play the deck before.

Ad Nauseam isn't the only target for the Vault. I like to think of Lim-Dul's Vault as the offspring of Mystical Tutor and Doomsday. If you have a couple useless cards with some mana sources and a way to draw into those cards (Brainstorm) then you may only have to spend 2-3 life to find a tutor with more mana sources next to it and go off. If you have the mana and a tutor but not enough to play through Daze/Force, you can get some more mana or protection. I've been fishing with the Vault in place of Mystical for longer than Mystical has been banned, and I've been leaning more towards it ever since. Wizards banning Mystical just... pushed me in that direction.

Now I'm thinking of running 2 Scroll Rack in place of my 2 Divining Tops.

[Lord_Cyrus]

Its Gocho's list so I'll wait for him to debut it here on TheSource. Its an invite only board so you wouldn't be able to see the link anyway until your application was approved.
Its good though. Easy to play and its fast. I think its the next ANT.

Good to hear, I look forward to it! I'm happy there are people working to ensure that storm combo has a future that is accessible to more players.

[DarthVicious]

I traded my Goyfs in for LEDs and Seas. Haven't looked back since.

[Aleksandr]

I got a good laugh from that. Thanks sir.

Yeah, I know, I forget Cabals...

[Azdraël]

Yeah, I know, I forget Cabals...

More laugh to come :)

[GreenOne]

Its Gocho's list so I'll wait for him to debut it here on TheSource. Its an invite only board so you wouldn't be able to see the link anyway until your application was approved.
Its good though. Easy to play and its fast. I think its the next ANT.
I'm subscribed to StormBoards, but i can't find it, even with the search function (my bad). Can you PM me a link?

[Vacrix]

I tried to send it to you but your Inbox is full, so here ya go:
http://teamstormboards.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=newideas&action=display&thread=170

It was located in "New Ideas for Combo" so it was a little hidden from view.

[DerFern]

I went 4-1 yesterday with a DD/AnT/NLS Hybrid without Mystical Tutor for testing purpose. I really didn´t miss MT so far, since the deck has been really flexible, strong and still explosive. Here´s my list:

Mana
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
4 LED
4 Petal
2 Chrome Mox
2 Simian Spirit Guide

Cantrips/Tutors
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
3 Sensei´s Divining Top

Engine
1 Doomsday
1 Meditate
1 IGG
1 Tendrils
1 Ad Nauseam

Disruption
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize

Lands
2 USea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
1 Swamp


SB
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infernal Tutor
1 IGG
1 ToA
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Doomsday
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Hurkyll's Recall
1 Tropical Island
1 Deathmark
1 Thoughtseize
1 Card I don´t remember


The matchups have been Uw-strange-Balanced-Merfolk (2-1), BW Planeswalker (1-2 due to misbuilding DD-Piles), Rb Goblins (2-0), Uw-Tempo-Faeries (2-1) and Ichorid (2-1). Not my worst matchups but CB/Top was a pain in the ass as it is meant to be. The planeswalker guy had Extirpate and Null Rod post-board which was a little annoying but it still should be about 80/20 in my favor. The Faerie-guy played about 15 Counters maindeck and even more post-boarding, but somehow I had everything needed in my hand to play ToA für 24 just with Rituals, Petals, LeD and his 4 (!) hardcounters that turn. Goblins was kind of a bye since he did not mulligan for his Extirpates, Chalices and Thorns. Dredge was really close, since his Therapies once found 2xBurning Wish... that was game...

Overall, Mystical Tutor would have been nice, but more Wishes suited me really well. I still like the deck and playing it post-B/R should be quite cool due to lesser hate. I´m looking forward to it :)

[Dia_Bot]

I went 4-1 yesterday with a DD/AnT/NLS Hybrid without Mystical Tutor for testing purpose. I really didn´t miss MT so far, since the deck has been really flexible, strong and still explosive. Here´s my list:

Mana
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
4 LED
4 Petal
2 Chrome Mox
2 Simian Spirit Guide

Cantrips/Tutors
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
3 Sensei´s Divining Top

Engine
1 Doomsday
1 Meditate
1 IGG
1 Tendrils
1 Ad Nauseam

Disruption
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize

Lands
2 USea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
1 Swamp


SB
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infernal Tutor
1 IGG
1 ToA
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Doomsday
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Hurkyll's Recall
1 Tropical Island
1 Deathmark
1 Thoughtseize
1 Card I don´t remember


The matchups have been Uw-strange-Balanced-Merfolk (2-1), BW Planeswalker (1-2 due to misbuilding DD-Piles), Rb Goblins (2-0), Uw-Tempo-Faeries (2-1) and Ichorid (2-1). Not my worst matchups but CB/Top was a pain in the ass as it is meant to be. The planeswalker guy had Extirpate and Null Rod post-board which was a little annoying but it still should be about 80/20 in my favor. The Faerie-guy played about 15 Counters maindeck and even more post-boarding, but somehow I had everything needed in my hand to play ToA für 24 just with Rituals, Petals, LeD and his 4 (!) hardcounters that turn. Goblins was kind of a bye since he did not mulligan for his Extirpates, Chalices and Thorns. Dredge was really close, since his Therapies once found 2xBurning Wish... that was game...

Overall, Mystical Tutor would have been nice, but more Wishes suited me really well. I still like the deck and playing it post-B/R should be quite cool due to lesser hate. I´m looking forward to it :)

Congratz on your result. On question though, how do you feel about the singleton Ad nauseam?
In my NLS deck I've cut the Ad nauseams and chrome moxes completely to make place for more doomsdays, cantrips since Ad nauseam is a bad topdeck when low on life and I think its pretty inefficient when you have to IT + LED to it.

[Gocho]

I tried to send it to you but your Inbox is full, so here ya go:
http://teamstormboards.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=newideas&action=display&thread=170

It was located in "New Ideas for Combo" so it was a little hidden from view.

I started to develop it last Friday, so it's an early deck, but is working like a charm :)
I'm writing a Primer for The Source, if I end it today, I'll post it in the New & Development Forum. If not, I'll post it Tomorrow.

[Aleksandr]

I started to develop it last Friday, so it's an early deck, but is working like a charm :)
I'm writing a Primer for The Source, if I end it today, I'll post it in the New & Development Forum. If not, I'll post it Tomorrow.

I've tinkered with it a bit, it is really funny. I hope you'll find the way how to stabilize the deck.



1 Card I don´t remember

Gatherer shows no results. Is it from M2011? ;-)

[DerFern]

1 Sadistic Sacrament

/fixed

@DiaBot
Ad Nauseam as a one-of really helped me in many situations. Since the loss of mystical tutor takes some explosiveness out of the deck, I like the flexibility of having more than just one way to win. There will always be situations where AdN is a bad topdeck, where AdN will only give you shitty cards or when you are already really low on life but there will also be situations where it is your only desperate way out. So far the bad Ad Nauseams have been way less than the good ones...

[JonBarber]

I played B/U ANT yesterday at the Vestal GPT as one last hoo-ra for mystical tutor. I ended up 5th, losing 1-2 to NO Bant. The deck played beautiful, I 2-0ed every deck in the swiss except reanimator (WHO MINDBREAK TRAPPED ME). Was a fun day and won a playset of Volcs that will now be going into TES. RIP Mystical Tutor

[Gocho]

I started to develop it last Friday, so it's an early deck, but is working like a charm :)
I'm writing a Primer for The Source, if I end it today, I'll post it in the New & Development Forum. If not, I'll post it Tomorrow.

One day after:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18094-%5BDeck%5D-NLI-Next-Level-Iggy&goto=newpost#post467956

[jjflipped]

New hate card: m11 white leyline is an ivory mask. we must assume that it WILL see much play.

[Noman Peopled]

New hate card: m11 white leyline is an ivory mask. we must assume that it WILL see much play.
Just another cheap permanent we have to deal with. Precludes t1-2 wins though.
(edit: what sheepish thing to say ... just ignore this post)

[JonBarber]

New hate card: m11 white leyline is an ivory mask. we must assume that it WILL see much play.

We don't have to deal with it til post ad naus making it one of the worst possible hate cards. If they are playing white I'm already boarding bounce for their canonist. Not a big deal.

[Waikiki]

Doomsday and empty the warrens complete ignore the card. It looks like thrash imo.

[Azdraël]

Include some Bounce in your Doomsday pile and it'll be fine.

[lolosoon]

Include some Eldrazi in your Doomsday pile and it'll be fine.
Fixed.

[Noman Peopled]

My guess is that we won't see that card played anywhere but metagames with a heavy black presence, with the added benefit of limiting combo's choices. It's too weak and more importantly too narrow to serve as an anti-combo slot.

Hell, we might use it ourselves in heavily black metagames :P

//edit: gah, that settles it. I'm not posting until I've played with ANT again.

[Nidd]

My guess is that we won't see that card played anywhere but metagames with a heavy black presence, with the added benefit of limiting combo's choices. It's too weak and more importantly too narrow to serve as an anti-combo slot.

Hell, we might use it ourselves in heavily black metagames :p

When speaking of Leylines in the SB, I assume you mean a whole playset. Including 4 additional cards with CMC 4 in a deck with Ad nauseam doesn't seem to be too smart.

[JonBarber]

When speaking of Leylines in the SB, I assume you mean a whole playset. Including 4 additional cards with CMC 4 in a deck with Ad nauseam doesn't seem to be too smart.

I think this face ":p" implies sarcasm

[JonBarber]

AMAGAHD, functional reprint of Mystal Tutor in M11 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ).

Thanks for trolling

[Nidd]

AMAGAHD, functional reprint of Mystal Tutor in M11 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ).

Dieses Video ist in deinem Land nicht verfügbar.

=/

[Hanni]

I brought this up in the SCD for Dark Tutelage, but what about running Dark Tutelage in replacement for Mystical Tutor? This deck is already designed around a very low cc curve, and with 4 Sensei's Divining Top, could very easily take little to no damage from the Dark Tutelage. The deck could easily maintain the tools it would need to race aggro, while the Dark Tutelages would help it to fight blue decks.

Thoughts?

[x8eikdls]

I brought this up in the SCD for Dark Tutelage, but what about running Dark Tutelage in replacement for Mystical Tutor? This deck is already designed around a very low cc curve, and with 4 Sensei's Divining Top, could very easily take little to no damage from the Dark Tutelage. The deck could easily maintain the tools it would need to race aggro, while the Dark Tutelages would help it to fight blue decks.

Thoughts?

Or you could just run Dark Confidant. Does the same thing, costs 1 less, and beats for 2 a turn vs. control/mirror.

[Hanni]

Or you could just run Dark Confidant. Does the same thing, costs 1 less, and beats for 2 a turn vs. control/mirror.

And gets nailed by almost every single removal spell in the format.

[Noman Peopled]

And gets nailed by almost every single removal spell in the format.
And forces them to have cards game 2 that do nothing against the combo proper. If not, there's no issue.
Also, Bob costs 1B which is pretty vital; we can have it out both t1 and t2 much more reliably. Against some decks (especially ones he got boarded in against), Bob can get an attack in, in effect producing a permanent 1 storm.
You can play Bob t1 off land+Mox or t2 off land+land or land+Mox. You can't play Tut t1 at all without expending more ressources than you should, and still need a Mox to cast it t2. Effectively, it gets you one less card for the debatable price of lessened vulnerability (pretty much everybody seems to be running Pridemages these days).

However, I'd say that regardless of vulnerability it serves a different purpose. We can't just replace a straight-up tutor with one-sided draw, especially since we want to minimize the number of AdNs to as few as is realistic. Finding AdN is where Tutelage and Bob both profoundly fail. At best they'll complete your Lions Eye/INfernal combination, which is a known liability against counterspells, or refuel the cantrip action, which takes more time still. They both quite reliably help fight through counterspells and hate by finding more Chants and Rituals, assuming you have other ways of finding AdN.
At that cost, we could run Cunning Wish, which would be much closer to the functionality to MTutor, despite it's steep cost. (Needless to say, it too can't compare. For starters, it can get only the one engine most vulnerable to damage.)

We're combo; we want to win t1-3 if possible. Where it's not possible, we can profit heavily from a draw a turn; elsewhere, we can't - and the metagame is pretty aggressive to boot. Vulnerability is one thing; but when a huge chunk of the metagame limits the draw you have simply by its clock, I think we have a problem. At this point, I'd rather add Preordain so we can cimply cantrip more often.

[JonBarber]

I brought this up in the SCD for Dark Tutelage, but what about running Dark Tutelage in replacement for Mystical Tutor? This deck is already designed around a very low cc curve, and with 4 Sensei's Divining Top, could very easily take little to no damage from the Dark Tutelage. The deck could easily maintain the tools it would need to race aggro, while the Dark Tutelages would help it to fight blue decks.

Thoughts?

I agree with what's already been posted, but would also like point out that there's a card called phyrexian arena, that's better. Yet its still not played.

[Hanni]

Well, it was just an idea that popped in my head, so I figured I'd suggest it. Nothing gained, but nothing lost.

[Malakai]

Tendrils was a great deck long before Ad Nauseam was printed. It might even have been a better deck, because both the decklist and the players weren't warped around the linear plan. Without Mystical Tutor, you can no longer get AN for free, nor can you win off of it for free. The solution is simple: return to your roots. Here's a start:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain

With a proper helping of duress effects, really, nothing but Counterbalance beats this.

[JonBarber]

Tendrils was a great deck long before Ad Nauseam was printed. It might even have been a better deck, because both the decklist and the players weren't warped around the linear plan. Without Mystical Tutor, you can no longer get AN for free, nor can you win off of it for free. The solution is simple: return to your roots. Here's a start:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain

With a proper helping of duress effects, really, nothing but Counterbalance beats this.

Its funny, me and a teammate are actually working on a very similar idea. The biggest issue is playing through perminant based hate. That's where mystical shined more than anywhere else, and that's where TES still seems to pull ahead through the use of bwish. Granted a non ad naus could still play bwish, but your mana base gets fucked up and the deck just keeps getting weaker from there. I'm personally putting storm on the shelf for awhile. Its not what it used to be, and I think there are just better decks to play. In a month or two it might be worth playing again when there's less hate, but for now it doesn't look bright.

[Muradin]

3 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
2 Grim Tutor
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Thoughtseize

Sideboard
3 Chain of Vapor
4 Dark Confidant
2 Krosan Grip
2 Rebuild
1 Reverent Silence
2 Thoughtseize
1 Tropical Island

This deck came in at a 9-0 record on day one at GP Columbus and in the end came in 19th. I think it is pretty strong and a new, form of Saito ANT.

[Piceli89]

I don't like the 2 Grim Tutors, they are 2 cmc 3 that only function at sorcery speed and are likely to make you do a 2x1 since you're not going to have 3 lands untapped with that build very soon. The best it can do at cycling itself is to take a LED, at the cost of 3 lives in a build that runs also Thoughtseize. I think it's very subpar.

On the other side, I'm working on revenueing UBw(g) ANT and as of now it seems to work quite well. The only compromise was, of course, to counter the absence of Mysticals increasing the threat density, so more bombs and more good cantrips (i.e., I don't think Preordain is really necessary in this configuration you already have 6 to 8 fetchlands to provide a shuffle effect post Ponder or BStorm).

[menace13]

This list just won the Legacy Magic Online Championship Series. 113 man event pilot went 14-1.
2 Crystal Vein (javascript:autoCardWindow('Crystal_Vein'))
2 Flooded Strand (javascript:autoCardWindow('Flooded_Strand'))
2 Gemstone Mine (javascript:autoCardWindow('Gemstone_Mine'))
1 Island (javascript:autoCardWindow('Island'))
4 Polluted Delta (javascript:autoCardWindow('Polluted_Delta'))
1 Swamp (javascript:autoCardWindow('Swamp'))
1 Tundra (javascript:autoCardWindow('Tundra'))
2 Underground Sea (javascript:autoCardWindow('Underground_Sea'))
15 lands


0 creatures2 Ad Nauseam (javascript:autoCardWindow('Ad_Nauseam'))
4 Brainstorm (javascript:autoCardWindow('Brainstorm'))
4 Cabal Ritual (javascript:autoCardWindow('Cabal_Ritual'))
3 Chrome Mox (javascript:autoCardWindow('Chrome_Mox'))
4 Dark Ritual (javascript:autoCardWindow('Dark_Ritual'))
4 Duress (javascript:autoCardWindow('Duress'))
1 Ill-Gotten Gains (javascript:autoCardWindow('Ill-Gotten_Gains'))
4 Infernal Tutor (javascript:autoCardWindow('Infernal_Tutor'))
4 Lion's Eye Diamond (javascript:autoCardWindow('Lion[s_Eye_Diamond'))
4 Lotus Petal (javascript:autoCardWindow('Lotus_Petal'))
1 Orim's Chant (javascript:autoCardWindow('Orim[s_Chant'))
4 Ponder (javascript:autoCardWindow('Ponder'))
2 Sensei's Divining Top (javascript:autoCardWindow('Sensei[s_Divining_Top'))
3 Silence (javascript:autoCardWindow('Silence'))
1 Tendrils of Agony (javascript:autoCardWindow('Tendrils_of_Agony'))
45 other spellsSideboard

4 Dark Confidant (javascript:autoCardWindow('Dark_Confidant'))
2 Disfigure (javascript:autoCardWindow('Disfigure'))
2 Echoing Truth (javascript:autoCardWindow('Echoing_Truth'))
2 Extirpate (javascript:autoCardWindow('Extirpate'))
2 Krosan Grip (javascript:autoCardWindow('Krosan_Grip'))
1 Slaughter Pact (javascript:autoCardWindow('Slaughter_Pact'))
1 Tendrils of Agony (javascript:autoCardWindow('Tendrils_of_Agony'))
1 Tropical Island (javascript:autoCardWindow('Tropical_Island'))

[JonBarber]

3 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
2 Grim Tutor
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Thoughtseize

Sideboard
3 Chain of Vapor
4 Dark Confidant
2 Krosan Grip
2 Rebuild
1 Reverent Silence
2 Thoughtseize
1 Tropical Island

This deck came in at a 9-0 record on day one at GP Columbus and in the end came in 19th. I think it is pretty strong and a new, form of Saito ANT.

It was piloted by Ari Lax, and actually came down to him vs. Bryant Cook for the top 8. It was a super close match, and he DIDN'T BOARD CONFIDANTS. Had he, he easily would have won the match.

Grim tutor is a lot better than you think. It serves as Infernal Tutor 5 and 6, and also is another way to generate 10 storm without using Ad Nauseam. Playtesting the deck you'll discover is surprisingly easy to Igg Loop for the win, or generate 9-10 storm just through cantrips.

To be fair though, Ari also admitted that he didn't face a single blue deck day one. Bryant on the other hand faced a blue deck nearly every round. The deck also has a major flaw in the fact that it only contains 1 tendrils, and is therefore cold to extract, sadisitic sacrement, a well timed extirpate, etc.

[Bryant Cook]

It was piloted by Ari Lax, and actually came down to him vs. Bryant Cook for the top 8. It was a super close match, and he DIDN'T BOARD CONFIDANTS. Had he, he easily would have won the match.

Grim tutor is a lot better than you think. It serves as Infernal Tutor 5 and 6, and also is another way to generate 10 storm without using Ad Nauseam. Playtesting the deck you'll discover is surprisingly easy to Igg Loop for the win, or generate 9-10 storm just through cantrips.

To be fair though, Ari also admitted that he didn't face a single blue deck day one. Bryant on the other hand faced a blue deck nearly every round. The deck also has a major flaw in the fact that it only contains 1 tendrils, and is therefore cold to extract, sadisitic sacrement, a well timed extirpate, etc.

Easily would've beat me? Do you know who I am?

Although, he should've boarded them in...

[JonBarber]

Easily would've beat me? Do you know who I am?

Although, he should've boarded them in...

Haha, he would have recovered twice as quickly during the cripple fight while making your life total decrease very quickly. It makes me assume that he would have won, but then again, you are Bryant Cook. My apologies.

[Rune]

17 lands and 0 Chrome Moxes really seems wrong. I'm not sure what to think of Grim Tutor. I've been testing a similar list, but with Chant and Chrome Moxes, and Grim Tutor has been pretty good. It makes it very easy to IGG loop against blue decks, but it seems very anti-synergistic with AdN and it's almost always just better for me to win with IGG rather than the AdN, which makes it feel like I'm playing Iggy Pop and not ANT.

[Piceli89]

My main concern with these neo-ANT lists, also, is that they lose to Gaddock Teeg and/or Canonist g1 (yeah, there are some decks playing it MD, especially Zoo plays Gaddock). Even if we were to play a singleton Chain of Vapor, finding it via cantrips means an excessive loss of time and resources. That's why I'm skeleptical about the new storm combo lists that don't have any tutor power in the form of either Doomsday or Burning Wish.

Also, post Ad Nauseam you rely A LOT more on Infernal Tutor+LED to find the Tendrils, since you can't go Mystical+Cantrip anymore. This has happened frequently during tests.


Extract and Sadistic Sacrament are cards that won't see play in Legacy again. Guess why? Because the only tutor that could grab them has been banned. And I'm willing to bet mono-Black or Eva Green has other problems before dedicating 3-4 slots to fight a deck that will be considered dead or just too much weakened to care about.

[JonBarber]

My main concern with these neo-ANT lists, also, is that they lose to Gaddock Teeg and/or Canonist g1 (yeah, there are some decks playing it MD, especially Zoo plays Gaddock). Even if we were to play a singleton Chain of Vapor, finding it via cantrips means an excessive loss of time and resources. That's why I'm skeleptical about the new storm combo lists that don't have any tutor power in the form of either Doomsday or Burning Wish.

Also, post Ad Nauseam you rely A LOT more on Infernal Tutor+LED to find the Tendrils, since you can't go Mystical+Cantrip anymore. This has happened frequently during tests.


Extract and Sadistic Sacrament are cards that won't see play in Legacy again. Guess why? Because the only tutor that could grab them has been banned. And I'm willing to bet mono-Black or Eva Green has other problems before dedicating 3-4 slots to fight a deck that will be considered dead or just too much weakened to care about.

I think grim tutor is there to help serve as tutor effect for bounce (albeit a bad one, but still one nonetheless). The other option, which is what most non-wish versions seem to do, is just run more copies in the sb. For example, Ari Lax's list ran 3 chain of vapor and 3 rebuilds. With 12 cantrips, your odds of finding one are pretty good. Chain is a great storm builder, and the extra copies of rebuild in your hand can be cycled. The deck definitely is not as versatile as it once was, but the fact that theres less hate allows it to get away with it.

[Piceli89]

The odds of finding a card on 60 with 12 cantrips is still too low to not require some turns in which Zoo beats your face off and off invalidating the Ad Nauseam plan and leaving you with a bad Ill-Gotten Gains because your opponent will retrieve his burn spells and finish you off, and this is guaranteed since that list with Grims lacks Chant effects. You could Grim Tutor for Chain of Vapor, but even doing that will likely cost you a full turnunless going off that turn, which requires +1BBU) and 3 lives. Basically, you have timewalked and bolted yourself against Zoo. That's not an acceptable thing.
I think this matchup would still be doable if you manage to Chant your opponent or the first 1-2 turns and then quickly end the game, but also here you have to be very lucy to have the cards to go off by turn 3 assuming you lose 1 mana and a card each turn for Chants. Also, try to goldfish that online list and you'll find that Ad Nauseam, as already said, is way worse than how it was before due to the lack of Mystical and the presence of another one to be flipped after the first one resolves. You have to wait until you flip Infernal+LED, Tendrils, or IGG assuming you already have an Inernal in hand or in the yard.Or go random style with cantrips digging for one of those.

Of course, post-sideboard you destroy them, though.

The fact of powering way more squared lists and sbs is a natural assumption for all the non-Burning Wish ANT or DDFT lists, and that's what I'm doing from a month. Post-side against Zoo I have 3 Chain of Vapor and 2 Slaughter Pact, against Counterbalance I have 3 Krosan Grips (even i I'd like to transform the list into a post-sb DDFT w/ Emrakul+Isle, but it requires too much space), against random I also have Echoing Truth and 2 Hurkyl's recall (better than Rebuild in a list with 2 Ad Nauseam). The focus is to be able to side out all the chants against non-blue with good cards.
Carpet of Flowers is also an each-turn Black Lotus against all those Ubg LS- controllish lists that are popping everywhere. It's really, really good, perhaps even more than Xantid which is basically only for Merfolks, a matchup that is way far from being bad.

[Rune]

On the topic of 3 cmc tutors, maybe Cunning Wish should be reconsidered, as Hanni suggested some time ago.

It gives you maindeck outs to all kinds of permanent disruption, it finds you almost everything you need and it makes it possible to get away with only playing 1 AdN maindeck. In an UBg list you could create a wishboard that looked something like:

1 Autemn's Veil
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Brain Freeze
1 Hurkyll's Recall
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Chain of Vapor
x Krosan Grip

The problem is that it doesn't enable the IGG loop or find the best win condition in Tendrils. You would probably have to play City of Traitors in such a llist so you can fetch the AdN/protection/ritual on turn 2 and go off turn 3.

[Piceli89]

On the topic of 3 cmc tutors, maybe Cunning Wish should be reconsidered, as Hanni suggested some time ago.

It gives you maindeck outs to all kinds of permanent disruption, it finds you almost everything you need and it makes it possible to get away with only playing 1 AdN maindeck. In an UBg list you could create a wishboard that looked something like:

1 Autemn's Veil
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Brain Freeze
1 Hurkyll's Recall
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Chain of Vapor
x Krosan Grip

The problem is that it doesn't enable the IGG loop or find the best win condition in Tendrils. You would probably have to play City of Traitors in such a llist so you can fetch the AdN/protection/ritual on turn 2 and go off turn 3.

We can try. The Wish Idea intrigues me a lot, even if it's clearly suboptimal. But I still don't know if City of Traitors is worth it, you're packing a land that pops itself in a mana-hungry configuration (given the Wishes) and implies a mulligan in initial hand. We could work on it a bit, but keep in mind you're adding more Bolts in the face when flipped off Ad Nauseam. The manacurve issue is extremely delicate; I can tell you having played Doomsday ANT for a year and not being able often to kill via Ad Nauseam with a Doomsday and Meditate in the deck (2 cmc3, exactly).
We could try:

Da Bombz
4 Infernal
1 Ad Nauseam- 2 is too much if we play CWish.
2 Cunning Wish
1 Igg
1 Tendrils

Poor's accels
4 Dark ritual
3 Cabal
4 Petal
3 Mox
4 LED

Condoms
4 Chant
3-4 Duress

Cards that fetch other cards
4 BS
3-4 Ponder
4 Sensei's D.Top

The Mana
2 City of Traitors (?)
7 Fetchlands
2 USea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical
1 Island
1 Swamp


Sideboards: the usual ANT old layout, with +1 Ad Nauseam, +1 Freeze, +1 Chant. It may also be good to side out the 2 Wishes or the sb AdN in certain MUs (like Zoo) to be more fast.


This raises the bomb density to 8. Don't know if it's enough, but it might work.

As for the fact that Wish doesn't grab Tendrils, Brain freeze is still good after AdN. Remember the main gameplan still remains resolving AdN or Igg, Wish is just a (bad) pseudo-Mystical that doesn't imply Card-disadvantage and acts either as a solution fetcher or as a bomb/kill one. Just like BWish in TES.
But it also gives more value to SDT+LED, and this is pretty good.Ok, I think Cities are pretty necessary. The aim is to craft a slightly slower build (than the ones posted on here) that can support better Divining Top and has a better mid-game. It can also play really well staying mana open and EOTing Wishes, or using multiple SDT shanenigans, which is a strong principle in modern storm combo decks (the fact that you outplay your blue opponents).Wish could really shine, since it's also an answer to problematic g1 cards,and grabs instant solutions which are >>> in quality to the sorcery counterparts (Grip is better than, say, Cleanfall or Eye of Nowhere against CB, Hurkyl's is better than Spree). Therefore, a higher land count than usual (16). Wish is also a bomb with Carpet of Flowers, post board.
Yes, I like the idea a lot. Let's see if we can get something good out of this.

[Bryant Cook]

I think Cunning Wish is a great idea based solely on the idea that you get to win with Hunting Pack or Brainfreeze, much like how I win with Grapeshot.

Grapeshot + Brainfreeze both require a similar amount of storm. Brainfreeze slightly less.

[Rancorous Fool]

Usually I only agree with Bryant when he is trolling or choking in top8s.

But, for once i have to agree. I want to see more hunting pack played.

[Piceli89]

I think Cunning Wish is a great idea based solely on the idea that you get to win with Hunting Pack or Brainfreeze, much like how I win with Grapeshot.

Grapeshot + Brainfreeze both require a similar amount of storm. Brainfreeze slightly less.

Is this ironic or are you serious?

[Bryant Cook]

Is this ironic or are you serious?

A little of both. I don't think it's a terrible idea as a 2x of, 3x might be too hard on Ad Nauseam. But winning with Brainfreeze or Hunting Pack seems AWESOME.

[Moosedog]

if your already running white for chant/silence, my as well try to fit angels grace in the SB as a Cwish target. seems slow but might be worth testing.

[Piceli89]

But it requires 10 mana to kill via CW+Pack. It's impossible to pull it out unless you have a billion cards in hand, which is after Ad Nauseam. Better to leave it to Solidarity.

[Bryant Cook]

But it requires 10 mana to kill via CW+Pack. It's impossible to pull it out unless you have a billion cards in hand, which is after Ad Nauseam. Better to leave it to Solidarity.

It's impossible to get 10 mana after ad Nauseam? Also, who says it has to be Hunting Pact, Brainfeeze (which is more realistic) is 3UU.

[deviant]

I like how that gets around random hate.
After losing mystical the "just put one bounce in the md" plan has gotten significantly less reliable.

I think I'll be testing that if I feel like nauseating over people in the next legacy tournament.

[median]

From my experience playing vintage ANT I feel fine playing 4 wish maindeck to find Ad Nauseam, the vintage version plays 4 Ad Nauseam, and 3 tendrils and still functions, you wont be hurting yourself too much with 4 wish's.
The only downside is that it might be a bit clunky. A turn two wish-> turn three ANT, requires more acceleration. A turn three wish-> turn four ANT seems a little too slow.

[Piceli89]

From my experience playing vintage ANT I feel fine playing 4 wish maindeck to find Ad Nauseam, the vintage version plays 4 Ad Nauseam, and 3 tendrils and still functions, you wont be hurting yourself too much with 4 wish's.
The only downside is that it might be a bit clunky. A turn two wish-> turn three ANT, requires more acceleration. A turn three wish-> turn four ANT seems a little too slow.

Playing 4 Cunning Wish will significantly make your Ad Nauseam worse, instead. It's like playing 4 Lightning Bolts when you start revealing. You can ask several people on here (Bryant Cook first of all) why cmc 3 cards are bad to be revealed off Ad Nauseam, and that's the reason that lead to cut Simian Spirit Guide in TES, for example. We do not start revealing from 20 lives when we're actually playing,and the comparison with Vintage doesn't stand because it's a totally different format with a different clock and more powerful acceleration to be used and revealed.
I'll repeat myself: Cunning Wish would function only to slightly increase the chances of finding a bomb that does not necessarily depend on LED after flipping with Ad Nauseam, and incidentally it's also pretty good because it can offer solutions from game 1 against the classic problematic cards of slow decks (blue aggro-control with Counterbalance, Trinisphere decks). I have a doubt about its speed against Zoo, but surely it's miles better than Grim Tutor being an instant and not requiring double black and 3 lives.
For the remaining 57-48 cards, ANT remains the same with the same function, the same storm engine patterns and the same shell, and has to be played in the same way it used to be.

EDIT: if a competent player who plays storm well and understands it wants to help me developing a new version of ANt w/ Wishes together,feel free to PM me.

[jjflipped]

As far as adding wish, I like the idea on paper, but without a resolved AdN, we will be VERY hard pressed to reach storm 17 to freeze them out.

If you use the wish to get the AdN and bounce spells however, i think that's a great idea, especially considering that you get an upgrade from eye to nowhere to CoV from burning->cunning wish boards.

The grim tutor works very well in this deck, however I was not 100% convinced that it was the best option, that being the reason that i jammed TES at the GP instead of the list that me and Ari were working with. I feel that some form of wish board will yield the best results.

From the NLI thread:
We discussed the idea of an enlightened tutor boarding strategy. allowing us to get seals to stop hate. might be worth looking into.

[median]

What I saw when I looked at 4 wish's was an average of 3 cmc over four cards being added or 12 total casting cost to the curve, for a reference point, a lot of people run 2 Ad Nauseam, or 10 cmc to the curve. Having a difference of 2-4 overall cmc isn't much.

Going back to Grim tutor, I play 1 infernal tutor in my sideboard in TES so that I can grab IGG/ANT with it if I get a hand with just one wish and no tutors. You could run Burning Wish here, and run a singleton grim tutor in the side. I actually like the idea for TES since I could have 4 wish that also function as tutors in addition to four infernals.

[JonBarber]

As far as adding wish, I like the idea on paper, but without a resolved AdN, we will be VERY hard pressed to reach storm 17 to freeze them out.

If you use the wish to get the AdN and bounce spells however, i think that's a great idea, especially considering that you get an upgrade from eye to nowhere to CoV from burning->cunning wish boards.

The grim tutor works very well in this deck, however I was not 100% convinced that it was the best option, that being the reason that i jammed TES at the GP instead of the list that me and Ari were working with. I feel that some form of wish board will yield the best results.

From the NLI thread:
We discussed the idea of an enlightened tutor boarding strategy. allowing us to get seals to stop hate. might be worth looking into.

You said you worked with ari on his list for the GP. Why no chrome moxs?

[Humphrey]

Im starting to play around with the deck and I wonder how Iggyloop works since its exiled.
Also how important is Orims Kicker, i might build this deck but Silence is much cheaper, so id just play that.

[Azdraël]

The answer is not in the wind but in Infernal Tutor dude.

[Humphrey]

I dont get it. Usually i Bwish for Iggy, so I dont have Infernal. Also I dont see an Infinite Loop with Infernal.

why posting unclear answers at all

[Rune]

Chant is strictly better than Silence, although playing a 2/2 split of them is reasonable. I've only had Chant misdirected to my face once, but the kicker has saved me from losing many times against decks like Ichorid and Goblins.

You can quickly tell if you can IGG loop someone for 20 life by meeting these requirements:

- having Infernal Tutor in hand
- being able to get 4 storm before resolving the hellbent Infernal Tutor
- having 12 mana in total (including any mana you might return with IGG)

If you Burning Wish for IGG, you will need another Wish in hand to complete the loop, or just an Infernal Tutor.

[Brad Herbig]

Also, my favorite way to IGG loop with Burning Wish is as follows (P.S. IGG loops aren't infinite, just enough to kill them)

Cost: 2RB
Storm: 10

Hand: Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish, LED

Infernal for another LED (1)
Play both LEDs (2) (3)
Burning Wish for IGG, sacing LEDs for BBBBBB (4) (one has to be black, the second doesn't matter)
IGG for both LEDs and Infernal (5)
Play both LEDs (6) (7)
Play Infernal, sacing LEDs for BBBRRR (8)
Get Burning Wish (9)
Wish for Tendrils (10)

Note: Any acceleration can easily both bring the cost down and increase storm, but this holds together pretty well.

[AriLax]

Figured I should post here regarding my list.

1. Contrary to what was posted, I did face blue decks day 1, just nothing with CB Top. The non-CB blue match up is favorable. I was 3-1 against it at the GP (7-3 in games), and of the games I lost I directly punted 2.

2. Grim Tutor sucks compared to Infernal, but you need it to make the deck work in 2 colors. 4 Tutors is not enough. 6 is. Other options like Personal Tutor and Lim-Dul's Vault don't cut it as they don't work with an IGG loop. It also is nice in slow match ups (ie. Landstill) as more Duresses.

3. Losing to a MD Canonist or Teeg isn't a concern. No one actually main decks those cards besides some Zoo decks with a couple Teegs, and Teeg sucks in every other match up to the extent people will cut it.

4. Chrome Mox sucks. It really doesn't help much on the speed end or the long range end. It was only good post Ad Nauseum in rare scenarios. On the subject killing with Ad Nauseum is more difficult than before, but it really is the worst way to win anyways. People kill with it too often.

5. Didn't board in Bob for the mirror as too often I found games ending on 3. I felt Preordain would be better at just racing or dodging Duresses. It would have been good in maybe 1 of the games of the mirror I played at the GP.

The UB version probably lacks a bit of the raw power of the Burning Wish builds, but in exchange I never lose to Wasteland. Ever. From my experiences with the 5 color builds Wasteland decks can randomly just get you for no reason. The power you lose I also found irrelevant. You still kill before Zoo, which was the main concern, and very few other match ups come down to raw speed. My one reason to switch would be that it is possible the extra half a turn makes the CB match up winnable, I haven't tested.

Chant didn't make the cut as against Force of Will decks you can just win without IGG (or get back a Duress) and the only times it wasn't just a bad Duress were

1. Against Stifle or Mindbreak Trap.
2. In rare scenarios against counter decks where you had to IGG after Duressing all their counters (most of the time this is impossible without having 6 Duresses/8 post board anyways).

One last thing about the list: Cabal Ritual is almost always full powered due to the 12 cantrips + 10 fetches. This makes the blue match ups much easier as you can often just build up extra mana to Tutor chain into a Tendrils.

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

I love the 12 cantrip concept, this has been insane in testing. So much control over your hand is amazing, as is powering up C-Rit. Grim Tutor was incredibly clunky, though, but I'll still have to test some more with it to see if I feel it's "worse enough" to justify the red splash for Wish to replace it.

Also the reason I really want Chants in the deck is the same reason I always preferred Do Anh's list from Madrid to the Saito-version. With only discard as protection you're basically cold to an early SDT even without CB if the opponent knows to keep a FoW/other counter on top (or you're forced to run headfirst into the possible in-hand FoW as soon as you see the Top, counteracting the sweet power of cantripping into a protected win on turn 3-4, hopefully before they've also found a CB for the lock). Only it's even worse now as the reliance on Infernal instead of Mystical means you can't hold anything back on the first try. I think a combination of Duress (to snag CB early) and Chant (to dig into against Top alone) is probably the most powerfull protection-package given the fact that you can't run FoW yourself.

[mort-]

Well, I am not a fan of 3 or 4 color manabases. That's why I decided to stay UB. And because I don't have Doomsdays (kind of "Oh.. I could buy them today" and then don't-thing) I am testing a 12 cantrip list.



2x Ad Nauseam
2x Tendrils of Agony
1x Ill-Gotten Gains (probably gonna change with a 4th Infernal)
3x Infernal Tutor

4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
2x Chrome Mox
4x Dark Ritual
3x Cabal Ritual

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Preordain
2x Sensei's Divining Top

4x Duress
2x Thoughtseize

4x Polluted Delta
3x Misty Rainforest
2x Flooded Strand
2x Underground Sea
2x Island
2x Swamp


Sideboard:

4x Dark Confidant
1x Tropical Island
3x Krosan Grip
2x Smother
2x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Rebuild
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Slaughter Pact


Sadly, I could not test against counterbalance yet. What I did play against was Canadian Thresh, LEDless Dredge and Merfolk (Saitou's UB list with Standstill). Allthough it is a bit slower then lists with Mystical, it's still pretty resiliance and finds the cards you need pretty fast. In testing, it was almost every game faster then Dredge. While Merfolk is the worst matchup (at least with Standstill I think) it did pull positive results, same with Canadian Thresh.
So, I do like this list very much, and it seems to like me ;D I'll take it to the German Nationals this weekend, so hopefully I'll have some positive results to post here :)

[Brad Herbig]

The only problem I have with 12 (14?) cantrips is that it seems like you will spend most of your time cantripping into more cantrips. I guess that large amount of fetches will help with your ability to shuffle, but it feels like the large amount of cantrips really dilute the deck.

[mort-]

The only problem I have with 12 (14?) cantrips is that it seems like you will spend most of your time cantripping into more cantrips. I guess that large amount of fetches will help with your ability to shuffle, but it feels like the large amount of cantrips really dilute the deck.

Yeah, that might be. But most of the time you'll be able to pick some good cards up on the way. For example playing the Ponder/Preordain you found with a Dark Ritual in your Brainstorm to put 2 bad cards back into your library and looking a bit deeper with every Cantrip.
Even with bad cantrips, you kill turn 4 at latest, most of the time with double or triple protection.
As of now, I did not have any problems finding the cards I need fast and unproblematic :)

[mort-]

Ok, short report incoming, it's all of the top of my head, because we got a bit (read: very) drunk and I don't have my notes right here.

First round I went against UB Faeries. In the first game he keeps a one-lander while I Duress him (holding double LED and Infernal) and take a Force, then Ponder, find Duress and Thoughtseize and take his two Dazes. He finds a land and plays Bitterblossom, I start storming and reveal my two Tendrils, going to 5 in the process and having no rituals, but LED, Brainstorm and Preordain (first and only time it was better then Mystical ;D). Long story short: Brainstorm, put one Tendrils back, Preordain, float LED and storm him for 9. He dies on his upkeep.
Second game is almost the same, except he has lands. Well.. I have Confidants and beat him down to ten with double Confi, then kill him with a lethal Tendrils.
Second round is against Doomsday. He wins the roll and duresses me. I duress him seeing Mana, B.Wish and Doomsday. I take the Wish. He duresses me again, I do so too and see 2x Doomsday - meh. I take one and shortly after am dead to Emrakul.
Next game is Confibeatdown + lethal Tendrils. Got to love those guys.
For the last game I hold a hand with only mana, but think that I have ~20 outs that i can draw to get my engine going, so I keep. He gets the Duress and takes one Ritual. I draw Ponder, find Nauseam (but let it stay on top because I'm one mana short thanks to the Duress). I'm not going to see it again because he just kills me on his next turn.
Third turn was against Countertop I think. He stalls on one land, but has a top, while I cantrip through my library, find Duress and take a Force from him. So I think I'm pretty save to kill now. Nope, he hid a Force on top after my first Duress - well played.
I don't really get into the second game and just lose.
Really don't know what i played against in round four, but I won.
Round five is against merfolk. After punting REALLY hard (he got one hand card left, I go for the Ritual instead of the Duress first and am one mana short after he pierces it), I lose the first game.
Second game he stalls on one land and I beat him down with triple confidant, taking only four damage over two turns.
Third game is close, I start storming on twelve or so I think, make a plan on how to go to storm 10, play everything this way, then think I only got storm 9, recount, recount again, still come to nine, and almost announce Tendrils for 9, then see the lonely Petal I missed all the time - for 10 it is.
Next round I'm up to Dreadstill. Great. First game he wins pretty fast, second game I beat down with Confidants, kill two of his Factories with Krosan Grips and set up a mini storm for the win.
In the last game he I try to storm him out with a Tendrils for four, Infernal for Tendrils, Tendrils for six, but he obvisiously has the Stifle for the last one. Damn.
Round seven is really epic, probably the single most awesome thing that has happened to me while playing storm. I'm up against UWBR Countertop. First game is short: R1 Top, Force for my Duress, R2 Counterbalance. I try to storm while he has to reveal blind, but there is (of course) something for two on top.
Second game is smiliar. I Duress, he forces, I play Confidant, he Balance. Meh. I try to Grip it and he reveals a Warmonk on top - how lucky. I duress on his next turn, he draws a card with Top. Then he gets greedy, plays Top, looks, switches and swords my Confidant. Ok, I take that one. Tendrils for 10 without playing any 1cc spell ends the game.
Third game is were it gets awesome. He taps his two mana, I say "Yeah, you got that Counterbalance", but he plays Teeg instead. Quick thinking, yeah, I boarded in Smother. So I cantrip a bit while he plays Vendilion Clique. Shortly thereafter, I am at six life, have a hand with Infernal (one other Infernal on top), LED, Petals and a Dark Ritual. He has lethal on board and two cards in hand. So after drawing my second Infernal, I go for Thoughtseize and announce "I'm going to play this out really professional now". He pierces. Ok, I'm staying on six then. I try for my 3 petals - resolves. LED? Ok. Rit? Yes. Infernal, withoug saccing my LED. He plays Spell Snare - yay me. So he has no cards left and I'm going for Smother with my last Infernal, playing it with four mana left in my pool. I bet you can see where this is going. I tell him that I didn't do the math right because I can't look top 3 and still have mana for Tendrils (for storm 12), so I have to flip blind. Tendrils. Awesome.
Round eight is against lands, which I win pretty fast.
So off into the last round, playing Zoo. Game one I kill him on turn two or so, wasn't much to tell. Game two he goes for Lynx, Lynx (I smother one), Bolt, Bolt, Blast and that's it.
I have a good hand game three but am missing Business (anything wins. Infernal, Nauseam or even IGG). I play Brainstorm, shuffle, Ponder, shuffle, Brainstorm, shuffle, Ponder, shuffle, don't find anything and then he kills me.
So I went 5-4, which wasn't too bad because I started drinking around round four. Didn't miss Mystical one second (well, Preordain got boarded out against Confidants in almost any game). It's really sad you can't play the Confis main, stupid removal heavy legacy ;)

[egosum]

RANT (Red Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

1-Motivation
2-Introduction
2.5-Main differences with TES
3-Main Scheme
4-Card Selection
5-Why Should I even try it?
6-Match-up

1-Motivation

My history with CCG comes since 1996 when I frst met Magic: the Gathering, from that point I ‘ ve been playing (with some success) most of other popular (and not so popular) CCG’s: L5R, LotR (movie version), Star wars (classic and other versions, youg jedi…), Shadowfist, Warlord, Vampire the Eternal struggle, Warlord, Yu Ghi Oh, The Simpsons CCG, among others. And in every single game I played I ‘ve fallen in love with all the combo archetypes, this is why I decided to play storm ehn I came back to magic. I’ ve played Spring Tide, Solidarity, ANT, DD-ANT, TES, Belcher, NLS. For the last 4-5 months I sleeved my TES again and realized that after the Mystical trauma this deck rocks for the metagame but has some weak points that should be tuned for my specific metagame (whish actually is full of tempo and land still, and this means wasteland + massive removal).

2-Introduction

So this is RANT, a three color deck heavily inspired in TES (designed by Bryant Cook and the EPIC Syndicate) that has a primary gameplan to resolve an Ad Nauseam in the very early turns of the game (so it can be seen as an Hybrid between TES and the former 2 color Ad Nauseam) and Tendrils your opponent out of this world.

2.5 Main differences with TES

TES is designed to be a 4-5 color deck with a very flexible gameplan, which provides great adaptability but turns into its very big weakness is some games, RANT has a similar land sctructure to AND playing the 2 basic lands and more fetchalnds than TES. While the latter lists of TES play with EtW main deck, in RANT you have it in the board waiting the right moment toappear, this may deny you the ability to fill the table of goblins as regularly as TES but it also makes you less vulnerable to massive removal. Another big difference that RANT and TES have is the protection suite, being 3 colored makes RANT unable to play “Chant effect”, instead of that they have been replaced with more duress effects, and this is not strictly detrimental since having mor e spot discard makesthat you can use it after a ritual and gives you better chances against your biggest enemy: Conter Top, just because you have a better chance to have a “duress” in first turn to pick it out of your opponent’s hand.

3-Main Scheme

Maindeck 60 (23/08/10)

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder

4x Rite of Flame
4x Burning Wish

4x Dark Ritual
4x Infernal Tutor
4x Duress
3x Thoughtseize
2x Ad Nauseam
1x Tendrils of Agony

4x Lion’s Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
4x Chrome Mox
1x Mox Diamond

2x Scalding Tarn
2x Bloodstained Mire
2x Polluted Delta
2x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island
1x Badlands
1x Island
1x Swamp

Sidebaord 15

3x Pyroblast
2x Empty the Warrens
1x Grapeshot
1x Pyroclasm
1x Shattering Spree
1x Pulverize
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Echoing Truth
1x Wipe Away
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Deathmark

4-Card Selection

Mana acceleration: being Ad Nauseam oriented determines this a lot, you have to keep the mana curve very low so you can resolve ADN in extreme situations and this is why all the “ritual effects” must have CC 1, the addition of the 5th Mox has the same purppose and it also makes the mana development more stable, at the cost of card disadvantage (which is no longer hurting as much as it hurts to TES since a single card will end the game).

The tutors: having the 4 Infernal tutor in the main deck is important so you can go more consistantly into LED + IT. Burning wish provides flxibility for possible hate and grants you brokne plays that otherwise you couldn’t have (IGG, EtW and extra tendrils)

Cantrips: the regular Legacy cantrips are also here so you can sculpt the hand in the earlier stage of the game in order you can go for broke with enough confidence.

Mana base: this is what makes RANT special in the actual legacy. RANT is provided with a very stable mana base with some basic lands which give s you the edge in the tempo match up (specially), also the big number of fetchlands make brainstorms and Ponders more efficient.

Protection Suite: as I said before RANT uses 7 “Duress effects” maindeck which are easier to cast and gives you better 1st game against counterbalnce + Top.

5- Why Shuold I even try it?

I’m not saying that this deck is revealing anything, not even saying this deck is the best storm deck ever but it is an storm deck with an strong mana base, easy to cast protection suite and vey high chances of 1st turn/2nd turn kills (so its very fast). So if you used to play 2 color ANT just give it a try, and if you are a TES player and your metagame is full of Engineered explosives, pernicious deed, firespout, give it a try.

6-Match-up

I’ m going to talk about the most relevant legacy decks of actual metagame:

-Goblins/Zoo/Survival (no blue)/ Loam Decks (43 lands, garden)


This should be an easy match you’ll just cantrip for 1-2 turns and will resolve ADN for lethal, they are not fast enough to race you.

You can Sideboard like this:

+1x Deathmark
+1x Echoing Truth

-2x Duress

Against the Loam decks you may add

+1x Shaterring Spree

And cut

-1x Thoughtseize

To battle chalice of the void

-Merfolk/Bant aggro

Another favorable match it could only be hard if they have a perfect curve, their countermagic is too weak and their clock is not that fast, you have to take card of Curscatcher and Rhox War Monk, this are the only real threats they maindeck against you.

You can sideboard like this:

+3x pyroblast
+1x Empty the Warrens

-1x Infernal Tutor
-1x Ad Nauseam
-1x Chrome Mox
-1x Mox Diamond

-Counter Top

The greatest Foe. If they can resolve the CB+Top softlock you are almost out so the plan is to race as much as you can, in this match you’d waqnt to take risky hands if they seem just fast enough.

You can sideboard like this:

+3 Pyroblast
+1x Wipe Away
+1x Empty the Warrens

-1x Ad Nauseam
-1x Chrome Mox
-1x Mox Diamond
-1x Ponder
-1x Infernal Tutor

-Landstill

Strong Coutnermagic (they normally pack spell snare maindeck) but really slow clock, so just build the correct hand cantripping and go off confidently. The first land that should come to table is island (for being the one that allows you to cantrip and is basic).

You can sideboard like this:

+2x Pyroblast

-1x Chrome Mox
-1x Burning Wish


-FaeStalker/Canadian/Team America/New Horizons

Tempo is tempo, I mean you know, they can start denying every single resource or just cantripping fishing fo the answer the will not find. It can be very nasty if they go in the former way (stifle + wasteland+Daze), if they don’ t go this way it should be prettey confortable. This is a match in which is specially relevant to fetch for the basics, this match will go for long so you will get the red mana when you need it.

You can Sideboard like this:

+3x Pyroblast

-1x Chrome Mox
-1x Infernal Tutor
-1x Ponder

If they don’ t pack EE/Firespout:

+3x Pyroblast
+1x Empty the Warrens

-1x Chrome Mox
-1x Mox Diamond
-1x Infernal Tutor
-1x Ad Nauseam

-Mirror (Storm)

Nothing to say here the one who draws the meat is the one who gets the game. Keeping hands with a lot of disruption is excellent for this match.

You can sideboard like this:

+2x Pyroblast
+1x Empty the warrens

-1x Ad Nauseam
-1x Mox Diamond
-1x Chrome Mox

-Show and Tell

I have actually never played against this but it seems that you ‘ll outrace them very easily since thy are not that fast and you have enough disruption to fight them.

I would sideboard like this:

+3x Pyroblast

-1x Chrome Mox
-1x Burning Wish
-1x Ponder

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[emidln]

Why is there a separate thread for this? Back when I debuted this a couple months ago we considered it the same deck. It uses the same ratios with all of the key card types (mana, business, protection). You didn't mention the primary motivation for testing the deck, the two most common sideboard plans, or why you cut a perfectly good land for absolute garbage like Mox Diamond.

(1) This should be in the TES thread.

(2) It should discuss strategies where Duress/Thoughtseize is superior to other combinations involving Duress, Thoughtseize, Orim's Chant, Silence, Xantid Swarm, Pyroblast/REB, Pact of Negation.

(3) Why did you cut the absolute best artifact hate spell in Pulverize? It is better than Shattering Spree or Meltdown in any scenario in which you have 2 mountains barring something outlandish like Chalice @ 6. If it's inconsistency, perhaps you should revisit the part where you cut valuable lands from my manabase for irrelevant artifacts.

(4) It should be discussing the sideboard plans better. In particular, why do you deviate from my tried, tested, and proven Chain of Vapor/ETruth + Doomsday package against CB? (I have a very good reason why I don't run it anymore, but why don't you?) What games do you lose with Pyroblast that you would win with Doomsday plan or Xantid Swarm plan and vice versa.

(5) Cutting Ad Nauseam in the mirror is wrong. It's one of the strongest, if not the strongest spell you can play since, barring a mini tendrils from them, it is an auto-win given they have no countermagic.

[Fatal]

Hi i want to introduce some of thoughts about ANT new toolboxes which was tested last weeks by me.

First of all i posted here not in TES thread because Empty the Warrens isn't so effective (to often post sideboard games is much harder), more over, it has to high AVG in deck ruin AdN plan more often. This deck is more focused on fast AdN Tendrils wins.

My local meta is full of Pernicous Deed controls/Merfolks with Echoing Truth main (Landstill etc) keep that in mind.

Deck is 5c so mana base is hard to establish.

New tools:

1.
Nostalgic Dreams - i found this card is brilliant before and post AdN. It helps u a lot like IGG but without drawback (no more FoW's from grave etc).

Useable:
-LED on opening hand before AdN to cast more spells and produce 2 more mana from one LED.
-Post AdN when u don't have LED as a discard outlet and more storm bringer, also as last chance grave returner (when IGG with Tendrils are in grave).

2. Mana fixer's and new toolbox:
3 Summoner's Pact
1 Tinder Wall
1 Elvish Spirit guide
1 Wild Cantor

This toolbox has 0,83 AVG mana cost. It's very helpful to avoid dazes while combo and can filter your mana R/B/G. Also if u need more mana every Pact can add G from 1 Pact or RR from 2 Pact's.
It has drawback - when failed u lose - but mostly fail mean lose in combo so this drawback is minor.

3. Tutoring

I started use Personal tutor (2 in main) to search IT or some disruption, i also kept one Burning Wish as last chance button.

4. Disruption

I'm using Duress and Orim's Chant - specially Chant's give u time, and some more disruption vs Control player (i.e Dreadnought + stifle mean - Dreadnought ... eot)

Ok this is my decklist:


3 Summoner's Pact
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Wild Cantor
1 Tinder Wall
1 Nostalgic Dreams
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
1 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Ad Nauseam
2 Personal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Duress
3 Orim's Chant
4 Brainstorm
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Undiscovered Paradise
3 Polluted Delta
1 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Volcanic Island

SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Deathmark
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Hull Breach
SB: 1 Morningtide
SB: 3 Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Nature's Claim
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Chain of Vapor

Comments please.

[Piceli89]

Yesterday I played a 15-men tourney in a friendly environment, as I wanted to try out the consistency of my latest ANT build. Also, because I wanted to test if the deck was really dead or it was just weakened, and how much of the Mystical loss would have affected "tournament" performances. Everybody has quite abandoned this archetype thinking that the lack of such a powerful piece would have left in our hand a tier-2 combo. Only a few people are experimenting with Grim Tutors, but frankly I find that card to be horrible.

/ Lands
2 [A] Underground Sea
1 [B] Scrubland
1 [B] Tundra
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [OD] Island (3)
1 [PT] Swamp (2)
1 Tropical Island


// Spells
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
3 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [A] Dark Ritual
4 [M11] Preordain
4 [FNM] Duress
2 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
2 [MR] Chrome Mox

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 [10E] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 [A] Tropical Island
SB: 3 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze/open slot


Guess what it turned out?
That ANT is still alive, and it's as fast as before, if not, paradoxally, faster. The lack of MT doesn't allow to tutor for the missing piece to combo off, this is true, but in a proper build with 12 cantrip, it's astonishingly good how fast you can dig for your combo pieces in just 1-2 turns.Also, sometimes the problem in older ANT lists was that opening with 2 Mysticals slowed you down very much.
In those tests I have cast something like 5 cantrips on avg in the first 3 turns, and then I went off. Contrarily to the conventional beliefs people seem to have on here, playing such a large quantity of blue cheap spells doesn't make you draw another, just because you manage to filter the redudant ones you see very easily. And Preordain is so amazing in doing this, it's just like a Ponder that does not require a fetch to take the good card and get rid of the other 2, and acts like a shuffle effect after, guess what, a cantrip. It's just plain smooth good in increasing your odds to see the bomb, which this version is kinda low on (6 + IGG + Tendrils, contrarily to TES who plays 10-11). In a certain way, I found that I liked more having Preordain and investing 1 to filter, than having Burning Wish with which, if used as a bait spell or a protection/bomb tutor, I had to tap myself and play 3 to cast , say, a Thoughtseize, leaving me susceptible to Daze way more. It's true that we do no longer have access to a orm of MD bouncer and that decks playing hatebears or Iona maindeck trump us, but I'll take the risk.
I know I haven't discovered anything new and that Ari Lax and other guys already went up with this, but really, believing that ANT is dead is just plain bullshit, it can work really well and be consistent even without MT and without Grims. I never had trouble finding a bomb very quickly.

Another interesting thing I noticed in my goldfishes and tests is that you don't want usually SDT maindeck. The card was-and is-phenomenal at slowrolling blue and discard decks, but I found that in such an explosive configuration you want to be as fast as possible and be really low on mana investments, so Preordain is>SDT; at least, in the non-CB, non-tempo MUs. You also want to be as fast as possible pre-side, because your Ad Nauseam has got slightly worse due to playing 2 instead of 1, and you want to avoid people setting up nasty shit or aggroing you out.
Of course it can be played in the sb, but personally I don't find space.

I played against Dredge thrice (2-0,2-0, 2-0), Merfolk (2-1), Big Zoo (2-1), Landstill (2-1). Countertop is still an issue, though. I hope 5 discard and 2 grips +1 wipe away help, but it's still not enough.

The deck, anyways, is not dead at all.

[Arsenal]

Has the BUG version of ANT fallen out of flavor due to no MT? You still have Swarm and that new Autumn's Veil in addition to the SB staple Krosan Grip.

[Rune]

You can't cast AdN as fast as before, so against blue decks you need a back-up plan in form of Chant+IGG. Autumn's Veil loses to Stifle, which is why it's generally considered to be bad.

[Arsenal]

But doesn't Swarm give you an out versus blue decks? And doesn't Grip deal reasonably well with CounterTop?

[JonBarber]

Swarm is underwhelming, and you can no longer tutor up the singleton grip. Therefore to ensure you draw it vs CB, you need to 2-3, and adding 9 cmc to the deck post board is bad. Also, the deck is much slower because there simply aren't enough tutors in the BUg version. Hence all the recent success from TES.

[zmattk]

Hey guys, I've just started playing the deck and I've really been liking it so far. Right now I'm playing the version with burning wish and orim's chant/silence. The only thing I'm iffy about right now is my mana base.

4 Gemstone Mine
2 City of Brass
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

I don't like the lack of basics and my weakness to wasteland. I would like to play a mana base similar to egosum's above but then orim's chant and silence become much weaker cards in the deck. Would you recommend changing my lands around or is my build optimal right now?

Also I have not tested the 12 cantrip version yet. What are the pros and cons to each deck?

[Rune]

Your deck is actually TES and not ANT (people often get these mixed up). ANT plays 2-4 colors but never dips into the red splash, unlike TES. The decklist above that you're referring to is actually a 3c TES list and it shouldn't really be in here.

In the TES thread there is a lot of discussion about basics vs no basics, you can read all about it there. I personally like basics because they nullify part of the opponent's disruption, and if you play correctly, they'll never be a hindrance.

The 12 cantrip deck (ANT) generally has a better matchup vs Merfolk than 5c TES because its mana base is extremely stable, but in most other matchups you'd rather be playing TES since Burning Wish is a very versatile tutor that acts as a solid replacement for Mystical Tutor.

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

In the TES thread there is a lot of discussion about basics vs no basics, you can read all about it there. I personally like basics because they nullify part of the opponent's disruption, and if you play correctly, they'll never be a hindrance.

The 12 cantrip deck (ANT) generally has a better matchup vs Merfolk than 5c TES because its mana base is extremely stable, but in most other matchups you'd rather be playing TES since Burning Wish is a very versatile tutor that acts as a solid replacement for Mystical Tutor.

I'm playing the 12 cantrip-version with a minor W splash (for Chants) and I disagree with the assessment that you'd rather play TES in most non-merfolk matchups. The deck is very consistent (mass-cantripping is really insane), the stable manabase rocks and you are still so fast that you don't really care about any of the non-blue decks you might play against. There is imo exactly one matchup in which you'd rather be TES: Counterbalance. Against Counterbalance, they either don't find CB (which means you're basically playing against a worse version of Merfolk because they don't have the manadenial and you're actually favored) or they do (in that case you pretty much just want to win ASAP). As you don't know which kind of hand they'll get, your main plan is to try to kill them ASAP - preferably before they get a second turn - with a single back-up spell, which TES does better, hence its advantage in the matchup. Access to ETW helps there, too.

[RWeber]

Background information: I am fairly new to playing ANT I played it for a few tournaments before the banning of mystical tutor. I have tried TES for a few tournaments but I don't like it nearly as the Ari Lax build because it feels really clunky to me.

Question part:
Okay, so I recently built Ari Lax's ANT build and have been really enjoying it. The mana is what I enjoy most about it and the 12 cantrips have seemed extremely powerful in the 4 weeks I have been playing. The thing I am having most trouble with is sideboarding. I have absolutely no clue how to sideboard the deck, when mystical tutor was around it was pretty easy since the sideboard was mostly 1 ofs. So here is Ari Lax's list that I have been using if you are not familiar.

1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
2 Grim Tutor
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Thoughtseize
3 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs

3 Chain of Vapor
4 Dark Confidant
2 Krosan Grip
2 Rebuild
1 Reverent Silence
2 Thoughtseize
1 Tropical Island

I seem to slow myself down a lot after board. Here are my sideboard plans in certain match ups.

Merfolk/UW Tempo -
+2 Thoughseize
-1 Ill-Gotten Gains
-1 Preordain

Zoo -
+3 Chain of Vapor
-2 Grim Tutor
-1 Duress

Bant Vengevine Survival -
+3 Chain of Vapor
-1 Ill-Gotten Gains
-2 Preordain

Goblins -
+3 Chain of Vapor
+1 Rebuild
-4 Duress

CounterTop -
+4 Dark Confidant
+2 Krosan Grip
+1 Reverent Silence
+1 Tropical Island
-1 Ill-Gotten Gains
-4 Preordain
-2 Cabal Ritual
-1 Island

These are the decks that my metagame is focused around. My metagame is pretty good for the deck since there is only 1 counterbalance. There are about 3 merfolk and am running about 50/50 against them. Based on Saito this is a pretty favored matchup in my favor but I think I just need get a hang of the matchup. The rest of the field I pretty much dominate though.

I believe I am bringing the right things in my matchups, the problem is I really do not know if I am taking the right things out, which in this deck I think is a huge problem because every card is essential to your combo. If anyone has any tips or ideas on sideboarding with this deck that would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

[AriLax]

http://www.mananation.com/legacy-storm-primer/

Towards the end are all my SB plans. Main things different than yours in those matchups are I actually like IGG against Folk and Survival as they don't always have Force and you can definitely generate enough mana to IGG back Ritual, Duress, Tutor and beat a Force anyways and I like all the Tutors against Zoo as even on the draw when they kill on 4 you have enough life to Grim unless they have Fireblast.

[justindz]

I'm somewhat new to Legacy and have tried my hand at Merfolk, Dredge and CounterTop Thopter so far (played that cold at Baltimore for my second event ever, because I'm crazy like that). I didn't like any of these decks, so I'm currently building BUG Landstill and ANT--I would ideally like to be able to play a control deck and a combo deck at any point depending on the meta and my mood and the land base between these decks is pretty compatible. This is important as I don't have access to a ton of duals yet (2 Seas, working on a Tropical).

One question I have on the ANT list: assuming I don't have access to Grim Tutors, what is the best swap? I'm thinking possibly +1 Tendrils (likely Tutor target anyway) and possibly a 4th Chain of Vapor main deck. I have noticed a lot of survival lists playing one searchable Teeg main deck, probably for matches such as this, NoPro and Dredge. Would that be a decent option? I could still play 3 in the board, as I thoroughly believe in that card and liked it in Dredge as well.

Edit: another question. Reverent Silence over Back to Nature? It seems more dangerous with Ad Nauseum and ups the required storm count by 3, but I'm assuming the upside is that it is harder for Countertop to stop than Back to Nature (they have to use Jace on top). Is that right? Are there any pros/cons I'm missing? Is it worth the trade-off, considering CB is so bad anyway and you'd rather have Grip there?

Thanks for the advice! Sorry to noob up your thread :-P. Back to online trading for the cards.

P.S. - Ari, your storm primer was like a birthday cake in my brain. Beautiful. Especially for people like me who haven't played since Pox was a deck to beat.

[Bahamuth]

Very well written primer Ari. Thanks for this write-up.

Got a couple of questions:

- Why don't you run Xantid Swarm? The card has a huge impact in the Merfolk and Vengevival matchups.
- Don't you agree Grim Tutor is terrible?
- Don't you think AdN is pretty awful without any Chrome Moxen at all?
- 17 land? Cant you run less?

[Deadweight]

One question I have on the ANT list: assuming I don't have access to Grim Tutors, what is the best swap? I'm thinking possibly +1Tendrils (likely Tutor target anyway) and possibly a 4th Chain of Vapor main deck.

That, or +1 AdN, or +2 SDT if you haven't maindecked them yet, or +2 C.Mox, or +2 more disruption spells (total of 8). You might want to continue experimenting on your build until you decide on what you really need.

It's my first time posting on this thread so be gentle. I play combo (AnT,SnT), control (BUG Standstill) and Counter-Painter.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

http://www.mananation.com/legacy-storm-primer/

Towards the end are all my SB plans. Main things different than yours in those matchups are I actually like IGG against Folk and Survival as they don't always have Force and you can definitely generate enough mana to IGG back Ritual, Duress, Tutor and beat a Force anyways and I like all the Tutors against Zoo as even on the draw when they kill on 4 you have enough life to Grim unless they have Fireblast.

The primer was well written and, though I'm not a storm beginner, it was nice that you explained some of the things that get taken for granted so that new people won't flood with easy questions.

I have some questions though. Im a little worried that your plan in most of your matchups is "Duress the problem and win". While post board you get at least 6 more hate answers, I worry that game 1 vs blue can be rough. Did you ever want the full 8 Duress maindeck?

Also, just kinda mimicing everyone here, but Grim just feels so so bad. Id rather have something like top.

Speaking of which, If you play tops, you could play some Chrome Mox as you wouldn't have to use a card every turn to get good draws. Just a thought.

Finally, this:

As for this versus the various Doomsday decks, I’ll be honest. I have no clue what Doomsday is doing
was hilarious. At least you're honest.

[Rune]

I recently played UBw ANT to an amazing 1-2-drop record at an event with 30-something players.

Here's my exciting report:

Round 1 -
BW Deaguy Ale:

Game 1: I play out my artifact mana, hide relevant cards from Hymn with Brainstorm and get a SDT in play. I soon find AdN in my top3 and he's dead.

Game 2: He starts with black Leyline in play and Cabal Therapies me (and misses). He plays Needle on Polluted Delta, which is extremely awkard for me since I have 2 of them in hand. I draw a basic Swamp and my hand is land, IGG, 2x DRit, IT. He hardcasts white Leyline, which isn't very problematic since AdN can draw into the bounce. He has no threat on the board, but I still think I'm dead since the IGG in my hand makes it impossible to get hellbent (because of his black Leyline), unless I draw Brainstorm or LED. Fortunately, he helps me out by playing Gerrard's Verdict and I can IT into AdN into bounce and Tendrils.

Round 2 -
Merfolk:

Game 1: I know he plays Merfolk so I lead with an early Duress and see 2x Daze, Spell Pierce and guys. I take the Pierce and after eating a Wasteland and some beatz, I attempt to off when he has a ton of pressure on board and I can pay for the two Dazes, unfortunately he drew a 3rd one.

Game 2: Turn 1 IGG kill with protection. I'm a powerful wizard!

Game 3: I have a SDT in play, protection in hand and AdN on top of my library, so the plan pretty straightforward. Unfortunately he Wastelands 2 of my lands, including 1 of my 2 white sources. I'm left with 2 fetches, Chrome Mox (blue) and SDT in play. My hand is 2 LEDs and Chant and I have AdN on top of my library. I'm in a spot where I will take 8 damage and go to 6 if I pass the turn, so it seems best to just go for it. I can't play Chant because I would have to fetch a land and shuffle AdN away in order to do so. I have enough mana to beat Spell Pierce and Daze at the same time, but will lose to a FoW. It turns out he had one of each.

Round 3 -
UR Sneak Attack

Game 1: He plays a couple of Volcanic Islands so I put him on some kind of tempo deck. I spend a lot of time playing around cards he doesn't have, like Stifle and Vendilion Clique, but then I suddenly get hit in the face for 15 and my lands are gone.

Game 2: I pick his hand apart with discard and kill him with IGG when he's tapped out (he had no FoW, but 2x Spell Pierce and 1 Daze)

Game 3: I ritual out Thoghtseize (meets FoW, pitching another FoW) and Confidant. I get SDT in play and see Chant in the top3. I have no mana left to play the Chant in case something bad happens, so I play out an LED. On his turn he casts Seething Song. I consider Chanting him here, but I want to get the Emrakul out of his hand and I figure he will be able to hardcast Sneak Attack soon anyway, since he has 3 lands in play. He puts a hasted Emrakul in play and I have to discard my hand beautiful 4-card hand to LED, spin top and play Chant with kicker in order to survive. I Thoughtseize him and see that he has 2x Daze and lands, so he's basically in topdeck mode. Confidant rebuilds my hand and beats him down to 10. He has one final draw step to find a new Emrakul before I can Tendrils him, but as you might have guessed, he got there. obv!!!1



Overall, the deck still felt powerful. SDT is still insane in ANT, and it's one of the few reasons you might want to play this deck over TES. The Merfolk player drew too much disruption, combined with a lot of pressure, and I felt like it wouldn't have mattered if I had been playing TES instead. Before the tournament, I convinced myself that I didn't really need Xantid Swarm for the Merfolk matchup, but I was obviously a big idiot for thinking that was the case.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

FWIW, I've been playing with +2 SDT, -2 Grim Tutor. Not the greatest, but I prefer top over tutor because I always felt like I was shooting myself in the foot whenever I playd it.

Edit: Primer was a good read and well structured. I got a laugh out of the Doomsday analysis.

[Piceli89]

To all whom who consider Grim Tutor to be clunky (and, let' s say it, too much expensive), I'd recommend playing this bombs configuration:

4 Infernal Tutor
2 Ad Nauseam
1 IGG
1 Tendrils

This is probably the best ANT can still offer. Of course it's kind of a low threat density, so you have to support it with an adequate number of cantrips. I'd suggest running SDT because you absolutely need a steady way to dig into the cards above and not being stuck on controllish hands or acceleration-only ones (happens a lot since you're running between 18 and 19 pieces).
I'd also say that, with 2 Ad Nauseam, 3 Chrome Mox is the optimal choice. Card sucks and we all know this, but it's really necessary if you're planning to put half of your aim of winning in doing it via Ad Nauseam.
No bullshit about running 17 lands, 2 of them should be Moxes and a third one would be optimal.
This is even more true if you're running Thoughtseize. Also, remember that after Ad Nauseam you must flip an Infernal and a LED 90% of the times (unless you get the Tendrils directly), so here Mox helps you to increase the number of cards drawn, and SDT is pretty useful since it can combo with Ponder and see you a total of 7 cards.

I won't go further into the protection suite discussion, but I'd suggest watching carefully at the actual tiers, and then ask yourself whether Duress effects are superior to Chant ones against that horde or Merfolk, Vengevines, Dredge and Goblins, plus TES.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

To all whom who consider Grim Tutor to be clunky (and, let' s say it, too much expensive), I'd recommend playing this bombs configuration:

4 Infernal Tutor
2 Ad Nauseam
1 IGG
1 Tendrils

This is probably the best ANT can still offer. Of course it's kind of a low threat density, so you have to support it with an adequate number of cantrips. I'd suggest running SDT because you absolutely need a steady way to dig into the cards above and not being stuck on controllish hands or acceleration-only ones (happens a lot since you're running between 18 and 19 pieces).
I'd also say that, with 2 Ad Nauseam, 3 Chrome Mox is the optimal choice. Card sucks and we all know this, but it's really necessary if you're planning to put half of your aim of winning in doing it via Ad Nauseam.
No bullshit about running 17 lands, 2 of them should be Moxes and a third one would be optimal.
This is even more true if you're running Thoughtseize. Also, remember that after Ad Nauseam you must flip an Infernal and a LED 90% of the times (unless you get the Tendrils directly), so here Mox helps you to increase the number of cards drawn, and SDT is pretty useful since it can combo with Ponder and see you a total of 7 cards.

I won't go further into the protection suite discussion, but I'd suggest watching carefully at the actual tiers, and then ask yourself whether Duress effects are superior to Chant ones against that horde or Merfolk, Vengevines, Dredge and Goblins, plus TES.

I've been using 2 Tendrils of Agony. It works well and makes it so I don't need to flip IT with LED.

And Grim Tutor is just too much money :P I'd rather buy more duals.

[Piceli89]

I've been using 2 Tendrils of Agony. It works well and makes it so I don't need to flip IT with LED.

And Grim Tutor is just too much money :P I'd rather buy more duals.

How many times did you open a perfect and balanced hand ala Rite, petal, landx2, chant, X, Tendrils, and wished that second Tendrils was an Ad Nauseam? How many times instead did it allow you to stop? Because I've always been intrigued with the double Tendrils concept, but it's a plain dead card in initial hand, just as much as IGG is without Infernal tutor and without the will to test your luck into the "acantrip-into-another-cantrip" adventure.
Perhaps it's just better to go with the second Bomb. We're not Vintage, we're not going to cast lethal Tendrils without engines. At least, not without Chain of Vapor.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

How many times did you open a perfect and balanced hand ala Rite, petal, landx2, chant, X, Tendrils, and wished that second Tendrils was an Ad Nauseam? How many times instead did it allow you to stop? Because I've always been intrigued with the double Tendrils concept, but it's a plain dead card in initial hand, just as much as IGG is without Infernal tutor and without the will to test your luck into the "acantrip-into-another-cantrip" adventure.
Perhaps it's just better to go with the second Bomb. We're not Vintage, we're not going to cast lethal Tendrils without engines. At least, not without Chain of Vapor.

List for reference:

15 Land
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp

45 Spells
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
2 Preordain
2 Chrome Mox
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Ad Nauseam

15 Sideboard
4 Dark Confidant
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Rebuild
1 Krosan Grip
1 Reverant Silence
1 Tropical Island

I'm still testing the list, but so far, I haven't wished my second tendrils were Ad Nauseam. I'm sure it'll come up at some point.

Early testing shows the list goldfishes on average turn 2 or 3, with heavy disruption hands winning turn 3.

[Saff]

Can you tell me against which deck will you board in Dark Confidant and what you board out?

And another simply question from me - what is the difference between ANT and TES?

[death]

And another simply question from me - what is the difference between ANT and TES?

TES usually plays with Rainbow lands (C. Brass, Gemstone M.) It has 4x Burning Wish for Empty the warrens/Tendrils/Grapeshot/Diminishing Returns/disruption/anti-hate and it also has EtW maindecked. Basically more outs than ANT now that Mystical is banned.

[affinitypimp]

I just want to point out that i made a 2land Belcher style with the concept of this deck. but i dont know where to post my decklist. but i do want to report that its pretty consistant at winning turn 2-3. maybe i should post the list in the belcher section though cause i dont want to cause up a stir here

[JonBarber]

How many times did you open a perfect and balanced hand ala Rite, petal, landx2, chant, X, Tendrils, and wished that second Tendrils was an Ad Nauseam? How many times instead did it allow you to stop? Because I've always been intrigued with the double Tendrils concept, but it's a plain dead card in initial hand, just as much as IGG is without Infernal tutor and without the will to test your luck into the "acantrip-into-another-cantrip" adventure.
Perhaps it's just better to go with the second Bomb. We're not Vintage, we're not going to cast lethal Tendrils without engines. At least, not without Chain of Vapor.

I've cast lethal tendrils without chain of vapor numerous times. Its the only way your ever going to beat landstill. 2 Tendrils also allows you to mini tendrils for the win, which can be especially helpful against aggro decks such as merfolk. Also, flipping a tendrils on Ad Nauseam is never a dead card, whereas flipping another ad naus is an extra point of damage as well as a very dead card.

[Piceli89]

Your argument stands, except that Tendrils is an initial dead card, whereas Ad Nauseam has "win now" written near to its name. Also, Landstill is a bye, you just stand there and shot him with chants or duresses (chants are better obv) until one resolves and then you close the game. You have like 300 turns to build your hand and have a 2 dmg clock on your neck. Not that scary, I'd say.
About the Mini-Tendrils: I'd dare to say the only time you're winning with a little ToA is when the opponent is already at 16 lives or less. This does not happen that frequently, unless Zoo has already fetched 4 times. In that case, you're already pretty dead.
Keep in mind that bursting your hand into a non-lethal Tendrils rarely makes you win, you're left at topdeck mode and the opponent needs like 3-4 turns to bring you down, given the size of nowadays' Legacy creatures.
Nonetheless I'd still try with 1 Ad Nauseam and 2 Tendrils (I also play 2 Chain of Vapor maindeck for that matter), but I'm skeleptical.

[mercc]

Can anyone explain "mini-tendrilses" to me.

At best, you have 7 cards in hand, if you have more, than you probably win.
If you use 4-6 cards of those you have 1-3 left. And the opponent has 8-12 life left.

What's the next plan? You need to draw 2-4 cards that you can play in a chain to another tendrils to finish the game.
Do you do this when you have a top in play to setup the new hand or what?

Give me a realistic example please :)

[Dark Ritual]

Mini tendrils is a ToA that doesn't kill the opponent. Like if you got to 7 storm before casting tendrils they take 16 life loss and you gain 16 life. This rarely kills the opponent.

One way to get lethal tendrils with a 7 card hand is with this hand:

Chrome mox
Chrome mox
Lotus petal
Lotus Petal
LED
Chain of Vapor/hurkyl's recall
Tendrils of Agony.

You play out all the artifact mana (note that chrome mox can be any artifact), bounce it all back to your hand via chain of vapor/hurkyl's recall, play it again to get to over 10 storm then tendrils them. This is a more common play in vintage though I haven't seen it done in legacy that many times because you rarely get a hand full of artifacts, chain of vapor, and tendrils.

On the 2 tendrils debate. I would play only one tendrils because ad nauseam as a 2 of allows you to get broken draws more often while 2 tendrils is worthless since you only need to cast one to win the game. Landstill is a joke for us. Their lack of a clock gives us so much set up time it isn't even funny; the joke is that you could keep a 7 land hand and still win against landstill via drawing cards in your draw phase for 10 turns straight. It only becomes bad if they have the CB/Top lock in their deck.

[Piceli89]

On the 2 tendrils debate. I would play only one tendrils because ad nauseam as a 2 of allows you to get broken draws more often while 2 tendrils is worthless since you only need to cast one to win the game. Landstill is a joke for us. Their lack of a clock gives us so much set up time it isn't even funny; the joke is that you could keep a 7 land hand and still win against landstill via drawing cards in your draw phase for 10 turns straight. It only becomes bad if they have the CB/Top lock in their deck.

Thank you very much. :)

[JonBarber]

Mini tendrils is a ToA that doesn't kill the opponent. Like if you got to 7 storm before casting tendrils they take 16 life loss and you gain 16 life. This rarely kills the opponent.

One way to get lethal tendrils with a 7 card hand is with this hand:

Chrome mox
Chrome mox
Lotus petal
Lotus Petal
LED
Chain of Vapor/hurkyl's recall
Tendrils of Agony.

You play out all the artifact mana (note that chrome mox can be any artifact), bounce it all back to your hand via chain of vapor/hurkyl's recall, play it again to get to over 10 storm then tendrils them. This is a more common play in vintage though I haven't seen it done in legacy that many times because you rarely get a hand full of artifacts, chain of vapor, and tendrils.

On the 2 tendrils debate. I would play only one tendrils because ad nauseam as a 2 of allows you to get broken draws more often while 2 tendrils is worthless since you only need to cast one to win the game. Landstill is a joke for us. Their lack of a clock gives us so much set up time it isn't even funny; the joke is that you could keep a 7 land hand and still win against landstill via drawing cards in your draw phase for 10 turns straight. It only becomes bad if they have the CB/Top lock in their deck.

That doesn't really explain the example of a mini tendrils. My personal preference for winning with mini-tendrils is to infernal tutor for a 2nd copy of tendrils, and then use cantrips/mana to generate roughly 5-8 storm, and then leave enough rituals/cantrips to do it again the next turn. You usually just don't have enough U mana to storm up to lethal, therefore you pass the turn and do it again next turn. I like this strategy because it gets around force of will nicely. It also doesn't matter what your life total is. You just get as low as possible, and then go off. Ideally you'd build up enough storm to kill them in one turn, but if you can't, you set it up to hit them with a second tendrils the next turn (or that turn if you have enough mana).

[mercc]

That doesn't really explain the example of a mini tendrils. My personal preference for winning with mini-tendrils is to infernal tutor for a 2nd copy of tendrils, and then use cantrips/mana to generate roughly 5-8 storm, and then leave enough rituals/cantrips to do it again the next turn. You usually just don't have enough U mana to storm up to lethal, therefore you pass the turn and do it again next turn. I like this strategy because it gets around force of will nicely. It also doesn't matter what your life total is. You just get as low as possible, and then go off. Ideally you'd build up enough storm to kill them in one turn, but if you can't, you set it up to hit them with a second tendrils the next turn (or that turn if you have enough mana).

This was actually a good explanation, I understood the previous one aswell even thought it was the nuts but anyway :)

If you have a hand with rituals and cantrips AND infernal tutor. What do you do?
Is it best to infernal for the 2nd tendrils, or just cantrip and find the win in another way?

What i'm getting at is, when do you do this minitendrils plan over another plan?!

[AriLax]

One question I have on the ANT list: assuming I don't have access to Grim Tutors, what is the best swap? I'm thinking possibly +1 Tendrils (likely Tutor target anyway) and possibly a 4th Chain of Vapor main deck. I have noticed a lot of survival lists playing one searchable Teeg main deck, probably for matches such as this, NoPro and Dredge. Would that be a decent option? I could still play 3 in the board, as I thoroughly believe in that card and liked it in Dredge as well.

I would play a Burning Wish build if I didn't have Grims. Another option is another Ad Naus. You just need business cards. A MD Chain is reasonable too as it helps build Storm at worst.


Edit: another question. Reverent Silence over Back to Nature? It seems more dangerous with Ad Nauseum and ups the required storm count by 3, but I'm assuming the upside is that it is harder for Countertop to stop than Back to Nature (they have to use Jace on top). Is that right? Are there any pros/cons I'm missing? Is it worth the trade-off, considering CB is so bad anyway and you'd rather have Grip there?

More mana is the relevant part. You aren't under pressure in the match ups you want Silence in, so the extra 4 drop for Ad Naus is pretty irrel. To be fair you only actively want it against Enchantress as the game ender, so if you don't expect that you can cut it.


Very well written primer Ari. Thanks for this write-up.

Got a couple of questions:

- Why don't you run Xantid Swarm? The card has a huge impact in the Merfolk and Vengevival matchups.
- Don't you agree Grim Tutor is terrible?
- Don't you think AdN is pretty awful without any Chrome Moxen at all?
- 17 land? Cant you run less?

Merfolk and Vengevival are jokes as Daze and Wasteland are complete bricks. You don't need the help from Swarm, and getting Green actively hurts you against Waste.
Grim is much worse than Infernal, but it's the best option that gets IGG active. B Wish is vom as you can't really Tutor chain with it either, and there aren't other UB options.
-W/o Mox you just have to have mana floating. There's Cabal Ritual for that.
-More lands = beating Waste/Daze. Also lets you just out gun Landstill and other non-CB control going late. I cut one against decks where the game ends fast and they can't Waste/Daze me. Mox sucks as it costs cards which costs Storm which forces you to not Tutor chain.


I have some questions though. Im a little worried that your plan in most of your matchups is "Duress the problem and win". While post board you get at least 6 more hate answers, I worry that game 1 vs blue can be rough. Did you ever want the full 8 Duress maindeck?


Game one you only really worry about hard counters. Against big control decks you can just use extra Tutors to load up and the aggro-control decks don't have enough to matter. You actually are better at finding Duresses than control is at finding counters and if they have answers you have time as they aren't super fast. More Duress also hurts for Infernalling without LED.

[nodahero]

Yesterday I competed in a 21 man tournament for a non-sapphire mox of our choice. I sleeved up egosum's RANT list featured back on page 119 with the exception of a Mox Diamond for an additional Underground Sea and a vastly different side (which I think was a mistake in hind sight).

My sideboard was:
4 Doomsday
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Emrakul
1 Shattering Spree
2 Wipe Away
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Grape Shot
1 Ill-gotten Gains

My notes are a little sketchy at placed but it should be fairly dead on.

Round 1 Derek Wochinski with 4C Jace Still (I think)
Derek is a good friend of mine so I immediately put him on some blue control list.
Game 1 (on the draw)
Derek takes a mulligan. I keep my opening seven (I remeber there was double duress, a fetch, and gas). He then leads off with a fetchland and passes. I lead off with a fetch into underground sea and Duress him. He responds with brainstorm and shows a hand of Innocent Blood, 2 Pernicious Deed, Fetch, Scrubland... Seems like it should be easy. He plays fetch and passes. I rip another Dark Ritual (I think and cast Duress and then Adnausem with 1 black floating and finally get the kill at 2 life... evidently 10 8 tutors and a Tendrils isn't enough to kill quicker.)
Game 2 (on the draw)
Suffice it to say I never got the upper hand in the match... Every time I cast a Duress or Thoughtseize he had draw another 2 counters. Oh how I loath his opening hand of 1 FoW, 2 Stand Still, 1 Spell Pierce, 1 Brainstorm, and 2 land. I did manage to eat through 2 FoW, 2 Spell Pierce, and a BEB before I finally succumbed to Factory beats. The only thing I think I shoulda done different in this match is to prolly decide to hold onto my discard spells until I could cast a couple back to back and then try and punch through on the next turn although I doubt that would have even worked.
Game 3 (on the play)
I board in the Doomsday package and leave the 4th in the board for a burning wish target.
This game starts with about 10 minutes to go and again has us playing a game of duress counter go for almost eternity. with about 5 minuets to go he resolves a Mind Sculptor and starts fate sealing me into oblivions with me still unable to punch through his wall of counters. Finally in the second turn of time I am able to punch through but quickly realize I can't kill with any combination and he will be one turn away from exiling my library although I have a full hand of cards so it wouldn't have mattered to much.

BTW: question for anyone. Is there a pile I could make to kill my opponent with an active Mind Sculptor, my 7 card hand, and no meditate? As for mana I had 5 lands in play, a Rite of Flame and a Dark Ritual in hand. It seems like there prolly is but I couldn't think of one. He had 17 life.
0-0-1

Round 2 Joe Baker playing Martyr of Sands/Proclamation of Rebirth deck... oh joy...
Game 1 (on the draw)
He plays an Emeria (it allows him to bring creatures back if he has 7 plains in play) and passes turn. I lead with Underground Sea-> Dark Ritual-> Duress (to cover my bases)-> Dark Ritual-> Dark Ritual->Ad Nausem dropping to 12 life to kill him.
Game 2 (on the draw)
He plays plains and passes turn. On my upkeep he casts a silence. I draw my card and play a land then pass back. On his next turn he plays a land and imprints an Isochron scepter with Silence. I take my turn and realize that I don't have my WipeAways boarded in so I go the safe route and plop out 10 Goblins and beat face. Thankfully he can't keep throw down enough blockers and make effective use of his Martyr of Sands and eventually succumbs to beats.
1-0-1

Round 3 Spencer Skibba playing midrange Zoo (I designed and built for him).
Game 1 (On the draw)
He plays a fetch and cashes it in for a Taiga which leads to a Nacatl. I draw my card and decided to go for it with no mana floating and pray... I am at 20 life... Apparently fortune favors the brave sometimes. I reveal in order... LED LED LED Lotus Petal Rite of Flame Burning Wish. That game wen't fairly smooth I would say. Sadly game 2 wasn't as flawless.
Game 2
He leads off with another Taiga into Nacatl. I decide to go for it again right off the bat (I wasn't very afraid of fearing a burn heavy hand or a Teeg next turn)... Apparently I should have waited though as the first card I reveal is the second Ad Nos... and then no tutor effects... Sitting at 4 life I have no chance to kill unless I cast the revealed brainstorm with my only possible blue source or I can push on. I decided to push on and reveal my Tendrils also... Evidently 20 life wasn't enough that time... Seriously... WTF
Game 3
I keep a sketchy hand and end up regretting it. Apparently my deck felt bad about not giving me any tutor effects so I draw them for 3 straight turns even after (having 2 in my opener) casting them and fetching rituals. I never realized how irritating not being hellbent can be with Infernal Tutor. Suffice it to say I was turned into a bloody smear although I almost managed to pull out with the third tutor since it was a Burning Wish but he had the Lightning Bolt to kill me in response.
1-1-1

Round 4 to come later... My eyes are getting buggy ATM

[emidln]

If you Doomsday stacking Wipe Away you can get Emrakul and attack him. You wipe away Emrakul post-combat if he doesn't sac it. If he has enough lands to survive sac 6 and then pay for jace again, I don't think you get to win. The exact variation of the pile would depend on your hand, but it's possible that you might be able to setup Tendrils/Wish->Grapeshot instead of Wipe Away.

[NesretepNoj]

@AriLax: Today I tested your exact list and really, REALLY liked it.

My only concern was the lack of Chrome Moxen against (Saito's) Merfolk. After Duressing and paying for either Daze, Spell Pierce and/or Curse Catcher -- and having recieved som early damage -- I found it a bit problematic casting Ad Nauseam without any mana floating.

It could be my lack of experience with the deck, and storm decks in general, but I think I'll test with 1-3 Chrome Moxen. Maybe when I become more familiar the deck, I will agree with you on the lands/moxen count :smile:

On a site note, I also found Grim Tutors very good. I love the fact that they enable IGG and tutor chains, which I found especially useful against Zoo (I totally crushed it in testing :smile:).

[maxflow2]

@AriLax: Today I tested your exact list and really, REALLY liked it.

My only concern was the lack of Chrome Moxen against (Saito's) Merfolk. After Duressing and paying for either Daze, Spell Pierce and/or Curse Catcher -- and having recieved som early damage -- I found it a bit problematic casting Ad Nauseam without any mana floating.

It could be my lack of experience with the deck, and storm decks in general, but I think I'll test with 1-3 Chrome Moxen. Maybe when I become more familiar the deck, I will agree with you on the lands/moxen count :smile:

On a site note, I also found Grim Tutors very good. I love the fact that they enable IGG and tutor chains, which I found especially useful against Zoo (I totally crushed it in testing :smile:).

Yeah, I'd say this deck uses Ad Nauseam a little differently than something like TES. TES isn't afraid to go off with 0 mana and 0 land drops remaining as it can usually find a Mox or Petal and doesn't need to necessarily hit LED to use its tutors. This deck, however, seems to really want at least 1 mana floating or a land drop remaining. Fortunately, the deck is designed to do that very well by turn 3, using all of its cantrips to fuel Thresheld Cabal Rituals.

I haven't played any UB(g/w) lists enough to tell, but they look really appealing against Merfolk. The resistance to Wasteland combined with the ability to reach large amounts of mana to pay for their taxing counters with Cabal Ritual seems like it would be effective.

[death]

People seems to be preoccupied with Grim Tutor. ANT doesn't really need it, as long as you have 4x IT, 4x Ponder, 4x Brainstorm, 2x SDT, 2x AdN you'll be goldfshing by turn 3 if your list supports a 4th Cabal Rit. and 3x Chrome Moxen. I'm not afraid to go off with 0 mana since I usually play with 4x LEDs, 4x Petals, 3x Chromes.

[yankeedave]

So, I have been testing this list recently and would like some help / advice on SB choices for my meta and also a few thoughts on the notes I will put after this list:

ANT:

2 Ad Nauseum
1 Tendrils
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Ill-Gotten Gains

3 Duress
3 Silence
1 Echoing Truth

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Diamond

2 Island
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Ancient Tomb

Sideboard

1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Echoing Truth
2 Slaughter Pact
1 Deathmark
3 Orim’s Chant
3 Extirpate
3 Thoughtseize

So, a little breakdown of what I have and what I would like to change:

3 Silence / 3 Duress – a nice little package of disruption that allows me to play around counters etc.

1 Echoing Truth – allows me a Maindeck out to troublesome cards pre-board. Not always relevant, but sometimes awesome!

1 Mox Diamond – was put in the deck to help post Ad Nauseum, but has been really disappointing, this is one of the cards I would like help replacing.

2 Ancient Tombs – Helps accelerate into turn 2 Ad Nauseum and has been amazing most times I have drawn one. Would think about reducing this to a one-of, but I like drawing one per game.

I am reasonably happy with this Maindeck, apart from those couple of things I mentioned
above. I was thinking of changing the Diamond to a Preordain and the same for one of the Ancient Tombs. I am running Tombs as I don’t have City of Traitors, but that is a budget thing right now and will be changed as soon as I can afford the better option.

As for the sideboard, I am finding that savvy burn players can get me if I go too low with Ad Nauseum or even if I go the Iggy route, if they are clever and have a fast hand. Also, discard can wreck my day, so I am wanting to put Leyline of Sanctity in the board for those matchups as well as the mirror.

Extirpate has been hit and miss, as it wrecks UG Madness Survival, but that isn’t too bad a matchup anyways, so was thinking of ditching that. But then again, it works wonders in the mirror, esp if you can hit a tutor or a ritual in response to IGGY or suchlike.

Any ideas and/or criticisms, as long as they are well thought out and useful, would be welcome!

Dave

[Rune]

I wouldn't play more than 2-3 Moxen in this deck, since it often has mana floating after AdN anyway. I would play some number of Preordains and/or SDTs instead.

Crystal Vein is better than both Tomb and CoT in this deck and it also helps with getting thresh on the combo turn.

I wouldn't play maindeck bounce since it will just give you a false sense of security, and it won't really help you when you need it (no way to tutor for it), but, on the other hand, it's likely to be a dead draw that will screw you over and you already have 2 dead draws (almost) in IGG and Tendrils.

Extirpate doesn't really do anything for ANT anymore. It was good in the mirror because you could mess up your opponent's library after they Mystical Tutored, and it was also a good hoser against Reanimator but now tt's only relevant against Doomsday decks and those aren't widely played. It can be useful against Landstil/infinite-counterspells.decl if you want to remove their FoWs or Counterspelsl, but you don't really need help in that matchup. It might be good against Vengevines, but I think it's better to focus on winning instead of just preventing the opponent from doing so himself. ANT is also a lot faster than Survival.

Leyline of Sanctity doesn't benefit this deck. If you board 4 of them in vs black decks, you will have to board out AdN since it will become useless. This means you will have to win with IGG and your day will be ruined if they have Relic or Extirpate. The matchup vs any black discard deck is very easy, in my opinion. Play out your artifact mana, hide your good cards from discard and eventually you will be able to cast Ad Naus or Infernal Tutor into one. If you play SDT, it's the MVP of this matchup and a card that's hard for them to beat. The only time it can be hard to beat a black deck is when they play some kind of hate permanent as well (Null Rod, Thorn of Amethyst, Canonist, etc.), but they rarely play these cards.

Burn is also not that hard. Don't keep crappy/slow hands and you will win. Non-lethal Tendrils is also pretty good against them because it buys a lot of time for you to find IGG and finish them.

The Leyline might steal 1 game in the mirror if they don't expect it, but it's a terrible hate card against ANT because it doesn't stop Ad Naus from drawing into a bounce spell + the kill.

A total of 12 protection spells (sb included) seems a bit excessive. If you ever board that much in, you will dillute your engine too much and have a hard time making anything happen. Xantid Swarm and Dark Confidant are good sb cards you should consider.

[sligh16]

Yesterday I played a 15-men tourney in a friendly environment, as I wanted to try out the consistency of my latest ANT build. Also, because I wanted to test if the deck was really dead or it was just weakened, and how much of the Mystical loss would have affected "tournament" performances. Everybody has quite abandoned this archetype thinking that the lack of such a powerful piece would have left in our hand a tier-2 combo. Only a few people are experimenting with Grim Tutors, but frankly I find that card to be horrible.

/ Lands
2 [A] Underground Sea
1 [B] Scrubland
1 [B] Tundra
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [OD] Island (3)
1 [PT] Swamp (2)
1 Tropical Island


// Spells
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
3 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [A] Dark Ritual
4 [M11] Preordain
4 [FNM] Duress
2 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
2 [MR] Chrome Mox

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 [10E] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 [A] Tropical Island
SB: 3 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze/open slot


Guess what it turned out?
That ANT is still alive, and it's as fast as before, if not, paradoxally, faster. The lack of MT doesn't allow to tutor for the missing piece to combo off, this is true, but in a proper build with 12 cantrip, it's astonishingly good how fast you can dig for your combo pieces in just 1-2 turns.Also, sometimes the problem in older ANT lists was that opening with 2 Mysticals slowed you down very much.
In those tests I have cast something like 5 cantrips on avg in the first 3 turns, and then I went off. Contrarily to the conventional beliefs people seem to have on here, playing such a large quantity of blue cheap spells doesn't make you draw another, just because you manage to filter the redudant ones you see very easily. And Preordain is so amazing in doing this, it's just like a Ponder that does not require a fetch to take the good card and get rid of the other 2, and acts like a shuffle effect after, guess what, a cantrip. It's just plain smooth good in increasing your odds to see the bomb, which this version is kinda low on (6 + IGG + Tendrils, contrarily to TES who plays 10-11). In a certain way, I found that I liked more having Preordain and investing 1 to filter, than having Burning Wish with which, if used as a bait spell or a protection/bomb tutor, I had to tap myself and play 3 to cast , say, a Thoughtseize, leaving me susceptible to Daze way more. It's true that we do no longer have access to a orm of MD bouncer and that decks playing hatebears or Iona maindeck trump us, but I'll take the risk.
I know I haven't discovered anything new and that Ari Lax and other guys already went up with this, but really, believing that ANT is dead is just plain bullshit, it can work really well and be consistent even without MT and without Grims. I never had trouble finding a bomb very quickly.

Another interesting thing I noticed in my goldfishes and tests is that you don't want usually SDT maindeck. The card was-and is-phenomenal at slowrolling blue and discard decks, but I found that in such an explosive configuration you want to be as fast as possible and be really low on mana investments, so Preordain is>SDT; at least, in the non-CB, non-tempo MUs. You also want to be as fast as possible pre-side, because your Ad Nauseam has got slightly worse due to playing 2 instead of 1, and you want to avoid people setting up nasty shit or aggroing you out.
Of course it can be played in the sb, but personally I don't find space.

I played against Dredge thrice (2-0,2-0, 2-0), Merfolk (2-1), Big Zoo (2-1), Landstill (2-1). Countertop is still an issue, though. I hope 5 discard and 2 grips +1 wipe away help, but it's still not enough.

The deck, anyways, is not dead at all.

Hi, congrats on your results, could you please post sideboarding tips?

Thanks

[practical joke]

There we go,

Yesterday I won the Dutch Open National Legacy Champs again with NL-ANT, after winning it last year with reanimate:

Over 200 ppl showed up,

This was my list:

2 island
1 swamp
2 underground sea
4 polluted delta
4 misty rainforest
2 verdant catacomb

2 chrome mox
4 lotus petal
4 Lion's eye diamond
4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual
4 preordain
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 duress
3 thoughtseize
2 ad nauseam
1 ill-gotten gains
1 tendrils of agony
4 infernal tutor

SB:

4 doomsday
1 emrakul, the aeons thorn
1 shell-dock isle
4 xantid swarm
1 tropical island
4 chain of vapors


Straightforward list:

detailed match-ups will be there later due to being at work:

Round 1: vengevival 2-0
Round 2: Hypergenesis combo 2-0
Round 3: Dark tempo-***** 2-0 ( he mulled to 5 game 1)
Round 4: Merfolk 2-1
Round 5: TES 2-0
Round 6: Dredge 2-1
Round 7 ID ( it was safe to do so, but needed some calculations)
Round 8 ID ( all seems perfectly safe)

Quarterfinals: Goblins 2-0
Semi-finals: 41lands 2-0
Finals: TES 2-0

[Vacrix]

There we go,

Yesterday I won the Dutch Open National Legacy Champs again with NL-ANT, after winning it last year with reanimate:

Over 200 ppl showed up,

This was my list:

2 island
1 swamp
2 underground sea
4 polluted delta
4 misty rainforest
2 verdant catacomb

2 chrome mox
4 lotus petal
4 Lion's eye diamond
4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual
4 preordain
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 duress
3 thoughtseize
2 ad nauseam
1 ill-gotten gains
1 tendrils of agony
4 infernal tutor

SB:

4 doomsday
1 emrakul, the aeons thorn
1 shell-dock isle
4 xantid swarm
1 tropical island
4 chain of vapors


Straightforward list:

detailed match-ups will be there later due to being at work:

Round 1: vengevival 2-0
Round 2: Hypergenesis combo 2-0
Round 3: Dark tempo-***** 2-0 ( he mulled to 5 game 1)
Round 4: Merfolk 2-1
Round 5: TES 2-0
Round 6: Dredge 2-1
Round 7 ID ( it was safe to do so, but needed some calculations)
Round 8 ID ( all seems perfectly safe)

Quarterfinals: Goblins 2-0
Semi-finals: 41lands 2-0
Finals: TES 2-0
Wow excellent work man. Props. Winning a huge Dutch tournament like that hold much more value for me than any GP could because its the fucking Dutch. I look forward to the report. What decks did you ID against?

[practical joke]

I ID't against Ooze-survival and against a Rock-list.

I know players.

[Piceli89]

Very, very, very compliments! :)
Just a couple of questions:

-did you feel you ever wanted Chants instead of Seizes? You didn't meet any blue deck but ********, but it would have been relevant. I also find Chant useful against Vengevival to stop their second creature spell.Thoughtseize may hurt as a lifeloss for Ad Nauseam, in this fast metagame.

-did you ever missed Sensei's Divining Top? I understand that 12 cantrips are cool, but you should need a form of steady manipulation, especially against discard decks (Dark Horizons) where you don't even play sb Dark Confidant. Also, after Ad Nauseam SDT helps you by cantripping with mana produced off Rituals, which is very important in finding the missing Infernal or LED.
I've done 10 +2 SDT and it's fine for me.

-I guess the DD plan was useless all day because of the lack of Countertop. Would you still leave it in? Most of the CTop variants left are Dreadstill, at least here (maybe in the NLs Thopter or Bant is still spread), so I don't know..Grip seems way better.

[practical joke]

Very, very, very compliments! :)
Just a couple of questions:

-did you feel you ever wanted Chants instead of Seizes? You didn't meet any blue deck but ********, but it would have been relevant. I also find Chant useful against Vengevival to stop their second creature spell.Thoughtseize may hurt as a lifeloss for Ad Nauseam, in this fast metagame.

-did you ever missed Sensei's Divining Top? I understand that 12 cantrips are cool, but you should need a form of steady manipulation, especially against discard decks (Dark Horizons) where you don't even play sb Dark Confidant. Also, after Ad Nauseam SDT helps you by cantripping with mana produced off Rituals, which is very important in finding the missing Infernal or LED.
I've done 10 +2 SDT and it's fine for me.

-I guess the DD plan was useless all day because of the lack of Countertop. Would you still leave it in? Most of the CTop variants left are Dreadstill, at least here (maybe in the NLs Thopter or Bant is still spread), so I don't know..Grip seems way better.

With twelve cantrips and 10 fetch, you get treshhold easily which makes the deck quite resistant to taxing spells like daze or spell pierce.
I played against 3 blue decks. Merfolk, dark tempo and Vengevival.
Thoughtseize is great, sure 2 life is important, but most of the time the effect is worth the 2 life.

Never missed SDT, and I had only 1 situation where I wanted a orim's chant, and only because I could go off with ill-gotten gains instead of ad nauseam at 14 life with 2 mana float.

If you know how to work/protect your deck with your cantrips, you'll be fine. In the first TES match I pondered into insanity. 2 land, 2 rituals on hand and on top ritual, ad nauseam, LED. So I drew my ritual because I knew he had a duress. He didn't used it, so I won. If he used it, I would've won as well.

[NesretepNoj]

@practical joke: Congrats!

I run the same liste as you (or rather Ari Lax' list), which only differs in: +1 Island, +1 Swamp, -2 Chrome Mox, +2 Grim Tutors, -1 Ad Nauseam, -1 Thoughtseize. I have tested your list as well, but didn't like the moxen. I feel they cause me to take some unwanted mulligans, either because of not drawing a single land or not having access to the right colours. I've also tested without Grim Tutors, but found myself too often cantripping into nothing against fast decks. Grim Tutors also retains functionality with Ill-Gotten Gains and doesn't need LED pre- and post Ad Nauseam. What are your thoughts?

PS. I've also considered running the DD/Emrakul sideboard against CTop. I'll test it in futere.

[practical joke]

In my opinion your Post-ad nauseam seems terrible. You only have 4 ways of getting starting mana, the 4 petals. You should consider grim tutors as a 6 life-loss. Since 3 for the hit and 3 to cast and You can't always rely on ill-gotten gains.

The chrome moxes are awesome unless you have both of them in your opening hand. Now what are the chances of that happening.
I play 15 lands, 12 cantrips. The chances that grab only my single swamp is quite low.
I play 14 blue mana sources. On average I should have at least 1 and a cantrip in my opening hand.
Too many lands are horrible. I've had a few situations where I couldn't combo out that turn because I drew a land to many so I couldn't empty my hand for an infernal tutor. I seriously consider removing either a sea or a fetch for a third chrome mox.

Also against fast decks, grim tutor could be a bitch as well since you will cast it twice in an ill-gotten gains loop meaning you lose a whopping 6 life...
Even in an ill-gotten gains loop that is a lot. I would by far prefer a doomsday pile above grim tutor with ill-gotten gains. Less mana, same ammount/more storm

[Rune]

Very nice job!

I think your list is close to perfection. The clean UB manabase with few duals just destroys Merfolk. You should probably play a Wipe Away to put in the Doomsday pile, because if you meet a CB deck these days, they will have Pithing Needles for sure. I really miss SDT against decks like Brad Nelson's PT Junk, but the full set of Preordain is probably better overall since it speeds the deck up and it has better synergy with Cabal Ritual and Brainstorm.

Did you have to cantrip into the win after AdN during the tournament, or did you always flip IT+LED or Tendrils?

[practical joke]

I think the list can be improved.

I've had rare situations that I had to cantrip into a win, but those were during tests and it happens very rarely.
I. if possible do not sac my second LED when casting ad nauseam, or keep my LED at hand.
It can happen, and I do think this list lacks a proper tutor. Both lim-dul's vault and personal tutor are to slow and grim tutor is costing to much when trying to ill-gotten gains/or find it with ad nauseam. so I chose to be a bit greedy and play only 6cards that would provide me action.

Those you have to protect with everything you have.


Most of the time I flipped IT and/or LED or I used LED and infernal tutor to find ad nauseam and then flipped ill-gotten gains.

[Catitas]

Congrats on the win man... nice side gg Counterbalance (why play krosan grips when we can kill them with 15/15)

[Piceli89]

I think the list can be improved.

I've had rare situations that I had to cantrip into a win, but those were during tests and it happens very rarely.
I. if possible do not sac my second LED when casting ad nauseam, or keep my LED at hand.
It can happen, and I do think this list lacks a proper tutor. Both lim-dul's vault and personal tutor are to slow and grim tutor is costing to much when trying to ill-gotten gains/or find it with ad nauseam. so I chose to be a bit greedy and play only 6cards that would provide me action.

Those you have to protect with everything you have.


Most of the time I flipped IT and/or LED or I used LED and infernal tutor to find ad nauseam and then flipped ill-gotten gains.

That's where SDT would shine, in helping you to cantrip into the critical cards without blue mana. With your list, I think it would be wiser to sac LED in response to Ad Nauseam for UUU instead of BBB. You're more likely to flip several cantrips which nets you card, and rituals only need a Petal or a Mox to start being cast.
I can see that Preordain instead of (2) SDT speeds the deck and this is quite important nowadays that aggro-control are winning on turn 4, but it's quite sad to lose nice interactions like Brainstorming my Ad Nauseam on top and then using SDT plus LEDs to cast it, or just cast double bomb.
I also fear that such a list would have real difficulties against opposing Tops, but I'll take the risk.

As or the land count, I was already playing my list with 14 lands and it was better. This configuration relies a lot more on Infernal Tutor because it's basically the tutor which enables most of your kills, so it should be optimized. 12 cantrips help in finding the other lands against blue decks, and 3 basics are really strong against tempo decks. Personally I would not play 10 fetchlands because you're exposed excessively to Stifle and lifeloss, as 8 are more than sufficient to still guarantee a turn 3 threshold and you don't always want fetchlands especially when you have 2 good cards with Ponder and you need both,but you also want to Duress the opponent so you should shuffle away the good card because of having a fetchland. This scenario happens.

As for the third Mox, I think it's down to a personal choice. I do not love Mox since it's essentially a dead card. I prefer having an out to randomness in the form of Chain of Vapor maindeck. Not that it will bounce Counterbalance, but there are some decks as of now that play Meddling Mage maindeck to stop, guess what, Survival. They're more likely to name Tendrils than Ad Nauseam or rituals/LED, especially the so-and-so players. I don't like having random autolosses. I know it's marginal, but it could still happen.
Chain also buys a turn bouncing a turn 2 Survival, or may be useful in several situations (just bouncing their clock and forcing them to tap again, for example). It frees a sb slot and can, obviously, create +1/2/3 storm.

I've retuned your list a bit down to my taste and it sounds like this.

// Lands
1 [A] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand/Misty rainforest
2 [A] Underground Sea
2 [10E] Island (2)
1 [9E] Swamp (4)

// Spells
1 [FNM] Tendrils of Agony
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 [DDC] Duress
2 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
1 [ON][U] Chain of Vapor
4 [M11] Preordain
4 [V09] Lotus Petal
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [GPX] Chrome Mox

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [A] Tropical Island
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 1 [LRW] Shelldock Isle
SB: 2 [5E] [U]Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 3 [6E] Doomsday
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth/Wipe Away


I've changed the sideboard a bit. Hurkyl's Recall because it's still an autowin against those Stax decks that may give this deck a difficult life.
The echoing truth stays there as a third bouncer for Stax matchups as well as another answer against hatebears that replaces Duress , but It could be another discard against Counterbalance as well - say, an Inquisition of Kozilek, which has been surprinsingly good.
Not being able to grab Force is not a justification since it can still take off CB and hatebears as well as Pierce.
4 Doomsdays to me are too much, you can cantrip into one very fastly. Odds that you are going to cast on your first turn protected are pretty low. You should aim to quick Duress them and go for it. It still remains a risky plan, though. A Wipe Away as suggested by Kikoo should be good since you're still not going to pack Ad Nauseam.
Against Counterbalance, how the sideboarding should be?

-2 Ad Nauseam
-2 Cabal Ritual
-1 (2) Lotus Petal

+3 DD
+1 Emrakul
+1 S.ISle
(+1 Wipe Away)

-1 IGG? You should keep that angle of the deck, it may still get you wins.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Akira Asahara's list from MODO. Looks very 'traditional.' If anything, it's something to chit-chat about.

15 Land
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Gemstone Mine
2 Crystal Vein
2 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Swamp
1 Island

45 Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Silence
3 Chrome Mox
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Ad Nauseam
1 Orim's Chant
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains

15 Sideboard
4 Dark Confidant
2 Disfigure
2 Echoing Truth
2 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Tropical Island

[losada]

Against Counterbalance, how the sideboarding should be?

-2 Ad Nauseam
-2 Cabal Ritual
-1 (2) Lotus Petal

+3 DD
+1 Emrakul
+1 S.ISle
(+1 Wipe Away)

-1 IGG? You should keep that angle of the deck, it may still get you wins.


If you side out Ad Nauseam, the best option may be side out Chrome Mox too, instead of Lotus Petal and/or Cabal Ritual. I usually side out:

-2 Ad Nauseam
-2 Chrome Mox
-1 Ill-gotten Gains

+3 Doomsday
+1 Shelldock
+1 Emrakul

Realize that one of your best start is T1-Land-Duress, T2- Land-(Cabal or Lotus petal)-Doomsday

[practical joke]

I won't take out ill-gotten gains, because that is the one card you might need if you still want to combo out for 10 storm. (you have doomsday, but without SDT it's pretty difficult to get that chain going and without meditate it's rough)

You might want to take out 1 protection or 1 tutor.
Your tutors are much less relevant.

I'd take out -2 ad nauseam, -2 chrome mox, -1 swamp, -1 duress/infernal tutor for 4 doomsday, 1 emrakul, 1 shelldock

[Shimi]

I was testing the last UB ANT builds(2-3 Chrome Mox) but sometimes it seems too slow to go off or I'm having some troubles after IT + LED -> Adn cause it is dificult to find ToA or cantrip into LED + IT again.Or I just cantrip -> cantrip ->cantrip but can't find the missing part(bussiness or protec or accel).
What is the average turn people go off?
It is more common to go Iggy or Adn plan?

Is personal tutor bad?It seems more easily to get Personal + cantrip than IT + LED after Adn.

[practical joke]

I was testing the last UB ANT builds(2-3 Chrome Mox) but sometimes it seems too slow to go off or I'm having some troubles after IT + LED -> Adn cause it is dificult to find ToA or cantrip into LED + IT again.Or I just cantrip -> cantrip ->cantrip but can't find the missing part(bussiness or protec or accel).
What is the average turn people go off?
It is more common to go Iggy or Adn plan?

Is personal tutor bad?It seems more easily to get Personal + cantrip than IT + LED after Adn.

Average turn I can go off 3, ammount of protection changes a lot.
It can happen that you can't find anything, but it won't happen a lot.

Personal tutor is hell...It's extremely slow and I mean really slow. You don't want to set up a combo by casting personal tutor..cost you a turn or a cantrip + tutor + more mana to go off that turn. I wasn't happy with it, but the option of using grim tutor wasn't there either ( costs 6 life after ad nauseam..risky business and not useful)
After Ad Nauseam you need to find the following: Infernal tutor + LED or Ill-gotten gains + IT (or one in gy) or Tendrills or a whole lot of mana and a bunch of cantrips....that last part happened to me before once, casted 4 cantrips and then found tendrils.

I rarely have to cantrip for mana, you'll find it one way or another. Also remember that you don't always need protection. I.e I cantripped myself against merfolk the following hand: Cabal ritual, Cabal ritual, infernal tutor, LED, Ad Nauseam. 3 lands in play and treshhold.
He has in play 2 cursecatchers and 3-4 cards on hand.

Sure 3 turns seem slow, but if you don't use your cantrips the right way, you won't get things together, you have to make priority calls on what you need, if you find LED + cabal ritual and you have only a single cabal ritual on hand, you should ship it all and get new cards. Most of the time it's 1-2 accel ( 3 lands in play), 1 protection and 1 action...that should be findable for sure.


You should know what you play against, then make a call. For zoo, you don't need protection, but you do need accel and 1 action. The more the better because you'll probably
I use iggy plan as much as possible, since it's safe. Even if my opponent has Force in his gy I try to calculate the possibility of going either IT chaining into tendrills or iggy-loop.

[losada]

Hello again, I have some doubts on the sideboard. My current sideboard is:

3 x Doomsday
1 x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 x Shelldock isle
4 x Xantid swarm
1 x Tropical Island
4 x Chain of vapor
1 x Echoing truth

Do you think I should change the bouncers to other combination? My main deck is like Practical Joke's main, removing a Misty Rainforest and putting the third U.Sea. I'm considering removing the echoing truth by the fourth doomsday, but now there are not many CB decks in my metagame. Against what else is the Emrakul's plan useful? People here play a lot of tribal decks, UG and GW Survival and Non-CB bant
decks, like agrobant, New Horizons, Excalibur...

Thanks in advance!!

[practical joke]

Against what else is the Emrakul's plan useful?




besides counterbalance....nothing really, you can change it to 2x krosan grip (the third gets annoying after ad nauseam)
and some other cards to change the doomsday plan with.

[emidln]

besides counterbalance....nothing really, you can change it to 2x krosan grip (the third gets annoying after ad nauseam)
and some other cards to change the doomsday plan with.

It's reasonable against other combo decks. The plan shined against Reanimator-style decks, but you don't see those very often anymore.

Also, when siding in Doomsday, you want 4 and you want as many free colored sources as possible. That means Lotus Petal and Chrome Mox. You want to do everything in your power to be able to play Doomsday by turn 2. You won't be able to spend a couple turns cantripping into it if they land Counterbalance and Doomsday is not nearly as effective if they get to spend the same amount of time also cantripping into extra Forces and Spell Pierces if they don't have Counterbalance.

[kiwi]

One question

if you have a LIons eye diamond in your oppening hand and you know that your opponent plays 4 chalice of the void, Do you think that its better to put in play artifacts with cc 0 before that your opponent could play the chalice? For example playing lions eye diamond in turn 1 and pass the turn, for playing before infernal tutor and cracking lions eye diamond for searching ad Nauseam

[Dia_Bot]

One question

if you have a LIons eye diamond in your oppening hand and you know that your opponent plays 4 chalice of the void, Do you think that its better to put in play artifacts with cc 0 before that your opponent could play the chalice? For example playing lions eye diamond in turn 1 and pass the turn, for playing before infernal tutor and cracking lions eye diamond for searching ad Nauseam

Definitely, especially if you go for infernal>ad nauseam.

[Noman Peopled]

In a vaccum, it depends on how many threats to LED they have and how/when they work. In the vast majority of situations, a deck with Chalice does have more Chalices than, say, disenchant effects. But say I'm facing a known player who I know also has Ratchet Bomb/Powder Keg plus O-Rings, the dynamic changes somewhat. After all, they may just go for Chalice at 1 instead (do they know what we're playing? did they mulligan aggressively?). Note that Stax can also occasionally play a t1 3sphere and assuming we aren't winning t1 (at which point the question is moot), it makes little sense to keep LED in hand t1 just to be forced to play it t2.

How much you need LED is also worth taking into consideration. Say you have enough mana anyway; I'd definitely play LED as it may bait an opponent into dealing with it rather than doing something relevant against my hand (I have a hard time justifying playing O-Ring over any relevant lock piece in that situation, but you never know; and the worst things that could happen is that LED stays in play ...). It's worth noting that everything Stax can do against LED while it's in hand can shut off multiple cards, while everything it can do against a LED in play is limited strictly to LED (except Smokestack).
Even if I had no plan for LED whatsoever, I'd put it into play as Smokestack fodder; playing Stax, I have won more than a few games by following a combination of Chalices and/or 3sphere with Smokestack. Obviously don't do this if LED would allow you to win quickly through a lock.

[egosum]

I have to disagree with how bad is Personal tutor and to explain my agrument accurately I would like to remark what we have lost with Mystical Tutor, in older UB ANT (or UBw/UBg/UBwg ANT) lists Mystical Tutor achieved 3 main goals:

1-Setting the combo faster and smoother.
2-Making ADN more lethal on lower life, since after resolving it you had higher chnaces to find the lethal Tendrils (having Mystical Tutor, Infernal Tutor and Tendrils itslef).
3-Fixing the Sideboard, it allowed us to have asideboard full of silver bullet singletons, wchich is no longer possible.

Now that we don't have it anymore is compulsory to fill the void it left, so what are our options? We can replace them, in a natural way, with other Tutors or extra Cantrips. Let's have a look at the Tutors that we have out there (I will keep strictly on color, this is UB):

-Personal Tutor.
-Lim-Dul's Vault.
-Grim Tutor.
-Cruel Tutor.

The problem with both black tutors is the high cost of lifes, being Grim Tutor better for not being card disadvantage and allowing you to use the card the turn you cast it without extra effort.Though Ad Nauseam is a demanding lover and losing that many lifes (5-6 after resolving....) seems like a bad idea.

Lim' dul's vault, while being instat is just nuts it' s still life dependant and the CMC of 2 means that you will see its effect in the 3rd turn if you use it for the set up process, while if you use it after resolving ADN to find the lacking key it will cost 2-4 lifes and 2 different color mana (this is important since generating black mana won't be an issue, while generating blue mana could be).

Personal Tutor is a sorcery, which is bad, though it has a CMC of 1 which means that you 'll have their fruit in your second turn, though it find slimited cards, it actually finds one of the most importants which is Infernal tutor. But I do agree with you that Personal Tutor is very bad for the set up phase of the combo. Where I thinbk that Personal Tutor really shines is after resolving ADN, at this point it is just as Mystical Tutor: 1 CMC card that fetches for ToA, nad normally after resolving ADN you won't have problems of having an SDT or another cantrip in order to have acces to the card found with Personal Tutor.

Summing up what I mean is that Personal Tutor is a natural Replacement for Mystical Tutor function after ADN resolves (it also helps to fill the gap of the sideboard silverbullets, but more poorly), concerning the set up of the combo as we have no efficient tutors for it, the only solution is to add more cantrips to the list. But what is true is that MT was a HUGE loss for this list and made it no longer a tier 1.

Here I let the list I' m testing for the moment with some success.

Maindeck 60

4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Blodstained Mire
1 Swamp
2 Island
2 Crystal Vein
2 Underground Sea

4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox

4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Infernal Tutor
2 Personal Tutor

2 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains

Sideboard 15

4 Dark Confidant
2 Thouhgtseize
2 Wipe Away
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Deathmark
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Tendrils of Agony

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[Piceli89]

Very nice analysis, Egosum. You have somehow convinced me to try Personal Tutor, because it's really a pain to lose games due to bad Ad Nauseam flips. The only concern of mine is that Personal Tutor does not grab Chant which is the most powerful protection spell, but I'll deal with it and build something.

[addaro]

So I played my first tournament with ANT today. Practicals list with SB more like Ari Laxs. It was a small local tournament but we all have many different top tier decks so the meta is changing every time.

First round I played against Brown Stax. First game he locks me with first turn Trinisphere. Is there any way to win it? Second game he just has Chalice at 1 so I Rebuild and kill him. Third game I start with Rebuild in my hand, he goes first turn Trinisphere, second turn Thorn of Amethyst, third turn Lodestone Golem...I just needed one more land every turn to be able to get from the lock.

Second round Goblins. Yaaaaay, first game he mulligans to 5 and starts. I feel invincible. I have rituals in hand, some lands and cantrips. I go 1st turn Ponder, 2nd Brainstorm, fetch, Preordain. Third turn Im staring at lethal on the board so I have to go for it. I cast Brainstorm, fetch, Preordain and there is nothing, so I put both on bottom and finally draw some business - Infernal. Ufff, so much cantriping! Second game I kill him 3rd turn through Ad Nauseam but it was close due to 8 dmg done by little green men.

Third round against 43 lands. Again I feel I cant lose... how wrong :( He starts land, manabond, Zuran Orb, dump all lands and smiles... Im trying to calculate it but he then gets Loam and starts adding a lot of life each turn. Second game he gets to Zuran Orb on his 2nd turn and finds Loam quickly while I brick on my Ad Nauseam revealing nothing in like 20 cards that can kill him. Never thought that Lands.deck can be a challenge for ANT.

Fourth round I just kill the guy playing Standard UB deck from Worlds.

Overall, some bad luck, maybe bad decisions, but what suprised me...in many games I just cantriped, cantriped, then cantriped some more and cantriped until I got the hand needed for win. Nice surprise was the ability to use Ad Nauseam and kill next turn (some decks are that slow), ability to deal 36 with 1 Tendrils.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

So I played my first tournament with ANT today. Practicals list with SB more like Ari Laxs. It was a small local but we all have many different decks so the meta is different every tournament.

First round I played against Brown Stax. First game he locks me with first turn Trinisphere. Is there any way to win it? Second game he just has Chalice at 1 so I Rebuild and kill him. Third game I start with Rebuild in my hand, he goes first turn Trinisphere, second turn Thorn of Amethyst, third turn Lodestone Golem...I just needed one more land every turn to be able to get from the lock.

Second round Goblins. Yaaaaay, first game he mulligans to 5 and starts. I feel invincible. I have rituals in hand, some lands and cantrips. I go 1st turn Ponder, 2nd Brainstorm, fetch, Preordain. Third turn Im staring at lethal on the board so I have to go for it. I cast Brainstorm, fetch, Preordain and there is nothing, so I put both on bottom and finally draw some business - Infernal. Ufff, so much cantriping! Second game I kill him 3rd turn through Ad Nauseam but it was close due to 8 dmg done by little green men.

Third round against 43 lands. Again I feel I cant lose... how wrong :( He starts land, manabond, Zuran Orb, dump all lands and smiles... Im trying to calculate it but he then gets Loam and starts adding a lot of life each turn. Second game he gets to Zuran Orb on his 2nd turn and finds Loam quickly while I brick on my Ad Nauseam revealing nothing in like 20 cards that can kill him. Never thought that Lands.deck can be a challenge for ANT.

Fourth round I just kill the guy playing Standard UB deck from Worlds.

Overall, some bad luck, maybe bad decisions, but what suprised me...in many games I just cantriped, cantriped, then cantriped some more and cantriped until I got the hand needed for win. Nice surprise was the ability to use Ad Nauseam and kill next turn (some decks are that slow), ability to deal 36 with 1 Tendrils.

Winning the die roll is probably the biggest thing against Stax.

If you win, you're basically hoping to Duress or Thoughtseize their lock piece away and win shortly after.

But if Stax is a regular presence in your meta, play Rebuild in the sideboard. The plan is EOT Rebuild. Then win.

[addaro]

Thats how i won the 2nd game against him and was hoping to win the third but got crushed by two additional sphere effects. My question was more like if there is a way how to play through Trinisphere game 1 and then I realized that you have to go mad on Cabal Rituals because you pay 3 and get 5 mana. But thats kind of a god hand...

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

ANT doesn't offer answers to Stax preboard, unlike TES. Like I said earlier, you either have to hit their lock piece with discard or win before they lock you out of the game.

[emidln]

Depending on your hand/draws and their lock pieces, you can sometimes play around a single lock piece (Chalice, 3Sphere). It requires a bit of luck, and for them to not Geddon/Smokestack you, but it does happen enough to note.

[addaro]

This http://classicquarter.com/decks/deckview.asp?DecklistID=3831 during the last week 4:0 on MODO 3 times! I dont understand this build but hey, its succesful.

So how do you feel we have to adapt to new metagame after the ban? I didnt play storm before so Im asking the wiser pilots. Thanks.

[practical joke]

It looks a lot like the build I play combined with the oddities Saito had in his 4th place finish in GP Madrid.
( + preordain instead of mystical and 2 tendrils + the crystal vein)

The strength of the new Ad nauseam list is the protection from wasteland, but I really doubt the second tendrils and the crystal veins.
Sideboard also looks like Saito's GP Madrid.

yet, he has a good run online

[kiwi]

Some UB and UWB and nauseum list have 1 tendrils and 1 ill gotten in main, and another tendrils in the sideboard, againts what pairings is better to have 2 tendrils in main?

[Rune]

Some UB and UWB and nauseum list have 1 tendrils and 1 ill gotten in main, and another tendrils in the sideboard, againts what pairings is better to have 2 tendrils in main?

2nd copy of Tendrils is good when you bring in Confidants and sort of transform your deck and gameplan into "BobTendrils" (Vintage deck). So, it's good against all the matchups where you want the Bobs. It's always debatable against which decks he is good, but imo: combo and CB/control decks with little removal.

If someone plays 2 Tendrils but no Bobs, it's probably because they have been Saito'd.

[Bongo]

Hello!

I have started to play the UB version, and have a few questions. While not very common, I run the transformer SB Emrakul plan to combat Counterbalance. I tried out the green splash for Krosan Grip, but it has disappointed, since you need to draw into it, they can answer it by leaving a 3cc on top and it is defensive in nature. I'd rather like a more proactive plan, preferrably without splashing a color.

My current list (abbreviated since choices are fairly standard):

4 LED
4 Petal
8 Rituals

12 Cantrips
4 Infernal

2 Ad Nauseam
1 IGG
1 Tendrils

4 Duress
3 Seize

1 ??? (currently Sensei's Divining Top)

10 Fetch
2 USea
2 Island
2 Swamp


SB:
4 Bob
4 Chain
4 Doomsday
1 Emrakul
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Tendrils


I'm not running Chrome Mox, because it was only good after resolving Ad Nauseam. I usually have mana floating after AdN, so I don't think it adds enough value. The ??? slot is an extension of the sideboard. Even if I bring in the Doomsday-Emrakul plan, I want to retain a storm kill with Doomsday, and I think Top allows me to craft some Doomsday piles that otherwise wouldn't be possible. However, this is purely theoretical, since I'm a noob when it comes to Doomsday piles. So to all the Doomsday masters: Is Top the best option for that open slot? Would something like Meditate or Chromatic Sphere be better? Does Top even enable useful DD piles?

The second Tendrils in the SB is there for B/X discard decks and non-CB control. My idea is to bring it in with Bobs and try to grind them out. The second Tendrils gives me the option of a Mini-Tendrils or Double Tendrils. It's also nice to have another copy in your library in case you draw your first one and it gets discarded. For this reason, I also want to bring it in for the mirror, but is this a good idea (haven't played the mirror yet)?

[Scordata]

Doomsday is a COMPLETELY different animal than Ad Nauseum.
If you want to get serious, I recommend finding the Doomsday pile list that was compiled by emidln and cheeseburger.

If I were to build DD piles for a transformational sideboard, my deck would require at LEAST 4 SDT and 1 Meditate.

[NesretepNoj]

[..] If I were to build DD piles for a transformational sideboard, my deck would require at LEAST 4 SDT and 1 Meditate.

QFT!

@Bongo: I really recommend trying two Grim Tutors. Having played the deck for some time now, I can't imagine playing without them. They help winning through tutor chains, enable IGG-loops, beat Spell Snare and finds sideboard cards or even additional Duress against slow decks like Landstill.

For reference, I'm currently running Ari Lax' list: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21100_Deck_Tech_Ari_Lax/s_Storm_Combo.html

[Noman Peopled]

Here's emidln's list regarding doosmday piles: http://sites.google.com/site/emidln/doomsdaystacks

[emidln]

You don't strictly need Meditate/Ideas Unbound/Infernal Contract to make Doomsday->Tendrils work from the sideboard, but it's much easier to do since Brainstorm/SDT will require either cards in hand or lots of mana to get a good effect.

There is a more modern list in my sig.

[Bongo]

Thanks for the quick responses guys!


Doomsday is a COMPLETELY different animal than Ad Nauseum.

Is this true?

It's not that I'm relying on the Doosmday kill - it's more like a convenient backup plan. I'm siding in the DD-Emrakul package against Counterbalance, and a few times I think I can simply go for the storm route. I have read those DD stacks, they're very useful. I think the basic stack is:

Brainstorm
LED
LED
IGG
Tendrils

With a few cantrips in hand, I think it's not that difficult to kill through Doomsday. Say your hand is: BS, Rit, Doomsday, Fetch, Petal, Petal, Ponder - wouldn't this be a nice 2nd turn kill that doesn't use the Emrakul plan?


@Grim Tutor: Are these good enough? Flipping these with AdN hurts, not to mention that -3 life is fairly significant. Besides, I don't have the money to buy these. I think Sensei's Top are good replacements. I liked the singleton in the maindeck so far.

[Admiral_Arzar]

@Grim Tutor: Are these good enough? Flipping these with AdN hurts, not to mention that -3 life is fairly significant. Besides, I don't have the money to buy these. I think Sensei's Top are good replacements. I liked the singleton in the maindeck so far.

Paying 3 mana and 3 life to tutor in a deck that deperately needs life is awful. Just run SDT instead, especially if you're sideboarding Doomsdays.

[Piceli89]

Chrome Mox is necessary in a list with 2 Ad Nauseams/no Grim Tutor. I wish I could run a list that packs only business, but as long as you're relying on AN as half on your engines, you have to risk drawing one. You're very likely to kill yourself if you don't float some mana (B/BB or more),and Spell Pierce is everywhere.

[AriLax]

Paying 3 mana and 3 life to tutor in a deck that deperately needs life is awful. Just run SDT instead, especially if you're sideboarding Doomsdays.

Once you progress to being good enough at counting and cantripping to not have to rely on just slamming Ad Naus every game Grim gets much better. Still sucks but nothing else exists that does the job. Top is garbage a you don't have the mana with 12 cantrips to keep spinning. LDV sucks as it is slow and is a nonbo with all plans (less cards to straight Tendrils, no IGG, life for Ad Naus). Personal can't get mana but I might try it again.

[practical joke]

Once you progress to being good enough at counting and cantripping to not have to rely on just slamming Ad Naus every game Grim gets much better. Still sucks but nothing else exists that does the job. Top is garbage a you don't have the mana with 12 cantrips to keep spinning. LDV sucks as it is slow and is a nonbo with all plans (less cards to straight Tendrils, no IGG, life for Ad Naus). Personal can't get mana but I might try it again.

Mana shouldn't be much of a problem with ANT's current lists. you can ignore most taxing spells (and being wasteland proof helps a lot)
Grim tutor can be seen as a necessary evil, and I have to admit I've won most games on ill-gotten gains anyways. (even against decks that pack force, a buttload of mana can do stupid things). then again, I'd rather not flip grim tutor, it's still a bit "meh" for me, and LDV and personal as being nearly unplayable. You simply lose to much with personal tutor and you can't even hit ad nauseam with it, nor any form of mana.

[lorddotm]

@practical joke:
Are you playing Grim Tutor? I've been playing TES and I was thinking about trying out the Grim Tutor ANT decks.

[practical joke]

@practical joke:
Are you playing Grim Tutor? I've been playing TES and I was thinking about trying out the Grim Tutor ANT decks.

I'm not, I dislike it enough to skip playing it. I'd say test both with and without grim tutor and see how often you succesfully find a winning piece (tutor/ad nauseam) in the first 3 turns. (also make a mental note of protection)

if you don't like the ammount of action in it, add grim tutor, test is again and see if you like the card or not.

[Scordata]

Regaring grim tutors: I traded mine for a set of forces. If you run them, however, I would suggest playing the deck more like iggypop, as you will see better results.

I have so far desleeved this deck due to the heavy presence of counterbalance. It just seems like a waste of time and money at this point to hope to dodge that deck.

I am currently playing doomsday, as you can actaully win agaisnt counterbalance there.

[AriLax]

Regaring grim tutors: I traded mine for a set of forces. If you run them, however, I would suggest playing the deck more like iggypop, as you will see better results.

I have so far desleeved this deck due to the heavy presence of counterbalance. It just seems like a waste of time and money at this point to hope to dodge that deck.

I am currently playing doomsday, as you can actaully win agaisnt counterbalance there.

The CB builds that just have 4 Force for disruption are actually perfectly fine match ups, actually to the extent that I feel game 1 against UW builds is favored. There's a reason the guy who top 4ed the last SCG boarded Leylines. I actually beat him G1 only to lose the next to Leyline and the 3rd to him having Top-Force-CB and my hand and board plan being terrible. The 4C build with Spell Pierce, Snare, and Cspell is the real issue. Pretty sure you are mybe 20% to win a game there.

practical joke: Also forgot about the not getting Ad Naus thing. Last time I tried Personal was actually right after the banning and it was so bad I immediately cut it.

[lorddotm]

I'm not, I dislike it enough to skip playing it. I'd say test both with and without grim tutor and see how often you succesfully find a winning piece (tutor/ad nauseam) in the first 3 turns. (also make a mental note of protection)

if you don't like the ammount of action in it, add grim tutor, test is again and see if you like the card or not.

Well, I tried it before and it sucked. I'm guessing it hasn't improved?

[leegoo]

I'm of the belief that you NEED more than 4 tutors. The one great thing about the prismatic build is that it very rarely leaves you without a way to get to your kill... whereas the U/B build (although I personally think is much smoother on the whole) loses games every now and then to simply fizzling after firing off multiple brainstorm effects and seeing nothing.

Grim tutor is bad. But it puts the card in your hand and not on top of the library. I agree with practical that flipping one off of an ad nauseum is often not all that hot, but I just can't imagine running less than 6 tutor effects.

[Bongo]

Maybe I'm too bad, but I also don't like Grim Tutor. I think 4 Infernals and 12 cantrips are enough to reliably get what you need. Seldom I fizzle, that's a little shizzle.

The MetalworkerForgemaster deck has been gaining popularity, which is not good - Chalice and Trinisphere shizzle in my nizzle. I've also had difficulties with DragonStompy and Faerie Stompy in the past.

How about incorporating a man-plan against CB and Stax? I'm currently experimenting with:

4 Chain of Vapor
4 Dark Confidant
2 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Tombstalker
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Tendrils of Agony

The idea is to board out the AdNs and go beatdown, while minimally weakening the Storm plan. That way, you force them into a tough decision: side in potentially dead creature removal for game 3?
Hurkyls is for Chalice, Lodestone, Trinisphere, Null Rod and Ethersworn Canonist.

[Noman Peopled]

The idea is to board out the AdNs and go beatdown, while minimally weakening the Storm plan. That way, you force them into a tough decision: side in potentially dead creature removal for game 3?
Hurkyls is for Chalice, Lodestone, Trinisphere, Null Rod and Ethersworn Canonist.
Against Stax I think it would work reasonably well although the Nighthawks are probably too cute there. Stax has nothing that can kill Tombstalker game 2 but can screw you out of casting them with the right draw. If the list is anything like mine, they'll keep the Magi as additional win cons though - Stax generally has little to board in against combo and being able to get some damage in while ahead on tempo is crucial anyway, especially with AdN as the engine.
While the critters may punch through CB, CB often also has bigger and more consistent monsters Tombstalkers/Nighthawks may or may not be useful against - many if not most CB decks don't need creature removal to win at combat.

[practical joke]

New staxx deck:

Mainboard, hardly any answer to combo. should be a win.

Sideboard: heck a deck that makes 6+ mana on T1 is scary as hell. wurmcoil engine much?
You don't have time after boarding. the ammount of hate is immense and the wurmcoils are scary as hell.
I'd go aggressive, mulligan anything that seems slow without duress/seize. G3 should be yours again since wasteland lock is not an option against this deck.

About tutors:

yes 4 is on the tight side, but that's the reason I play 2 ad nauseam and 12 cantrips. leaving me with 6 "combo-pieces", if you go for grim tutor you'll be with: 6 tutors, 1 ad nauseam.

The difference is minimal, yes you can chain tutors, but with that ammount of mana you can even go ill-gotten gains and getting back protection (1 or 2 depends on what they have).

It can happen that you don't find anything with preordain/brainstorm/ponder...but you play that many, that it's hard to miss. (you can still find ad nauseams as well). If you often have issues with finding them, then you definately prioritize your cantrip targets wrongly, since I can keep finding the combo-pieces in the first 3 turns and keep them protected on the top of my library. It happened a few times that I had to cantrip after ad nauseam, but at that point you have a buttload of mana so you stop ad at a few lives and ponder into that tendrills or tutor into tendrils. I try not to flip myself to death when it's easier to dig up the deck with the cantrips you gained from ad nauseam.

[leegoo]

Ari how did you feel about your sideboard @ the starcity this last time. Cutting green altogether help or hurt? How much Cbalance did you play against?

[lorddotm]

I was just testing this deck. In almost every case, it was weaker than TES. Playing around Wasteland has never been a problem for me.

Because I don't like to give up on Storm (I still whip out Doomsdays every now and then, even though they are so much worse than Ad Nauseams), I was wondering what you guys think the benefits of this deck over TES are, assume that being Wasteproof isn't one of them.

[NesretepNoj]

I was just testing this deck. In almost every case, it was weaker than TES. Playing around Wasteland has never been a problem for me.

Because I don't like to give up on Storm (I still whip out Doomsdays every now and then, even though they are so much worse than Ad Nauseams), I was wondering what you guys think the benefits of this deck over TES are, assume that being Wasteproof isn't one of them.

You never lose to Zoo nor Goblins, because of Ad Nauseam (which TES largely depends on), due to low life total or unlucky flips. You always have the tutor/cantrip chain or IGG-loop by turn three.

With this deck, it is also much easier playing against Merfolks. All you have to do, is discard their force and add one or two extra mana depending on Daze or S. Pierce. With TES you have to take color requirements into consideration, when paying for taxation counters.

Because of the large amount of fetchlands (ten in my buid) your cantrips will often be much greater (and you can always fetch basics). You are almost always able to shuffle away bad stuff. Speaking of cantrips, they also cause you to mulligan far less, than you do with TES.

These are the reasons I plays this deck over TES. TES still might be the better deck, but they play out very differently, and I prefer how this one plays.

---
On a different note, it is kind of ironic, that this deck is so bad at using its name sake card compared to TES. On the other hand, Can. Thresh only plays one creature using the name sake mecanic and NLThresh doesn't use any at all. I know that this deck was much better at abusing Ad Nauseam at the time when M. Tutor was legal... When I write decklists I always call it Grim Tendrils to mimic Grim Long :smile:

[lorddotm]

You never lose to Zoo nor Goblins, because of Ad Nauseam (which TES largely depends on), due to low life total or unlucky flips. You always have the tutor/cantrip chain or IGG-loop by turn three.

I don't think I have ever dropped a Sanctioned game against Zoo with TES. Hoenstly, TES has many engines, not just Ad Nauseam, to kill them with. Both these decks tear both those decks to pieces simply because those decks cannot interact with you in a meaningful way.


With this deck, it is also much easier playing against Merfolks. All you have to do, is discard their force and add one or two extra mana depending on Daze or S. Pierce. With TES you have to take color requirements into consideration, when paying for taxation counters.

TES can have Xantid Swarm, otherwise known as the instant win, against Merfolk. Plus, Merfolk is not a hard matchup since you can just Empty early and they can't answer that game 1.


Because of the large amount of fetchlands (ten in my buid) your cantrips will often be much greater (and you can always fetch basics). You are almost always able to shuffle away bad stuff. Speaking of cantrips, they also cause you to mulligan far less, than you do with TES.

Keeping a hand of cantrips and no business seems terrible regardless of the deck. Plus this deck runs a million lands, something I will never understand.

[AriLax]

Ari how did you feel about your sideboard @ the starcity this last time. Cutting green altogether help or hurt? How much Cbalance did you play against?

I played vs one and it had Leyline of Sanctity post board. I really have liked the non-green plans a lot better as 1. Drawing Grip was unreliable and 2. Krosan Grip is miserable with the easiest way to win, which is just kill on two. I tried a heavy discard suite in straight UB too, but lost too often to my own Ad Nauseums and running out of cards. I've just come to the conclusion the best way to win is combo on 2. The Chrome Moxes were terrible as you still want actual lands, but the second Ad Nauseum is a step in the right direction post board.

On this vs TES:

TES has a lot of issues with Daze/Waste if your opponent aggressively attacks your Rituals because of the color requirements. Not only do you not have the "How the fuck do I Rite, Dark Rit, and Silence with 1 land in play" issues, but Cabal Ritual just runs right over Cursecatcher/Daze.

Your cantrips give you more resilience to Duress effects. TES is significantly weaker against the GB attrition decks because of this. Cabal Ritual also means you need less cards to get to critical mana.

TES is a lot more reliant on just gut shotting Dim Rets or Ad Nauses, where as this deck is much better at setting up for sure kills.

This deck also is much better at going late against pure control decks. The large land count, especially on basics and the high cantrip count make it easy to set up late games where you just crash through a hand of counters into a Tendrils. TES's low land count means going late you don't really make progress each turn and your mana production doesn't always line up well with casting your disruption.

[leegoo]

I've been trying out a couple of wipe aways in the board and they seem worth keeping in for the CB matchup. I think you still need a 3cc (split second) spell for those time's when they try to lock you out with some presence. (sometimes, especially against the goyf builds, you are actually on a clock which makes waiting to just push through 2 tendrils a bit more difficult.) Still, I think trying to resolve AdN at their eot is the fastest way to win post board. (considering you don't t1/2 kill of course ;) )

[amonchakai]

hi all
a new storm player is here :D
any help like http://www.mananation.com/legacy-storm-primer/ can be so useful for me
tnx

[Fossil4182]

I just played a weekly four round swiss event with this deck.

4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Lions Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
2 Thoughtseize
2 Grim Tutor
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ad Nauseam

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Underground Sea
3 Island
2 Swamp

I'd post the board, but its somewhat disjointed right now and its currently being redone. I ended up going 3-1 with a loss to RDW in round three. The loss was due to greedy plays on my part. I saw three duress effects early and he was mana screwed so I naturally took everything from his hand. However, he top decked a Mindbreak trap the turn before I went off and I didn't have any duress effects left to take it...sigh.

I've been playing the list on Cockatrice for a while now and I've been really happy with it (about 50 matches). I've found that most of the time I've gone off, its with Ill-Gotten Gains as opposed to chaining rituals into Ad Nauseam. I've found Ad Nauseam to whiff too many times for my liking. Using it as a hand filler at the EOT phase before you go off isn't a bad call since you can get enough cards to just out right case Tendrils without having to tutor for it. I still think Ad Nauseam has its place since smarter players will bring in graveyard hate to stop the IGG, I just don't think it should be the primary engine.

I've played TES before and the only thing I like better about it is the protection package. The Chant effects are really helpful with the popularity of Mind Break Trap in boards. However, the deck is weak against aggressive fish hands (Wasteland, Cursecatcher, Daze, Spell Pierce) and has a harder time recovering against disruptive BGW draws with Wasteland, Thoughtseize and Hymn. The cantrips in UB builds help to minimize the damage from such starts against BGW and the large number of basics allows the deck to play out well against Merfolk and avoid their Daze like spells.

[leegoo]

Played about 4 hours tonight vs. countertop thopter (card for card Guibaults build main, but +3 Mindbreak traps in the board... which is strong) game 1's and a couple of different sideboard plans. (Playing Ari's list of ANT)

Game 1 is very draw dependent. The plan goes something like this - try to kill them as fast as possible without getting wrecked by force of will. Duress on 1 (on the play) it is almost always right to grab sensei top over a FoW (unless of course you are going for it that turn), as forces in hand you can beat, forces on top of their deck you almost cannot. If they assemble top/balance the plan changes to "attempt to resolve ad nauseam during their turn. You can trip them up by casting a lot of different cc spells (and responding to certain spells with rituals/bstorms) but really... it's bad if they "get it." Remember that if they have counterbalance but no top, enlightened tutor still reads "W: counter target spell" (Even AdN with Future Sight)

I wouldn't say it's a terrible g1, but it's not better than 50/50 for sure, probably a bit in their favor.

Game 2 board games were absolutely an auto loss with the "board into a faster kill" (chrome mox's etc) plan, as a t0 leyline basically just wins unless you are sitting on chain of vapor. It also makes a lot of the cards you board in (thoughtseize comes to mind) really poor. All in all, I lost EVERY game with this board, even with a t1 kill. :(

Second Board plan - Same plan, but also bring in dark confidant, another tendrils and bounce.
Very similar, except bob is a real threat. After boarding out swords / Wrath they have few ways to deal with 2-4 dmg a turn from a guy. I got there twice just off Attacking (once with a resolved small tendrils as well) Better, but still a bad win/loss record.

Third Plan - Add Tropical Island and Reverent Silence / Krosan Grip - still better, as it's very easy to trip them up with krosan grip, especially if they get greedy and start trying to counter silly stuff like lotus petal/brainstorm/etc. Know that if you play the tropical island early, your opponent WILL float a 3 as much as possible, which can be good or bad depending. Reverent Silence was also good once or twice, especially against multiple leylines (one of very few outs to that) I consider this plan the first that is taking this matchup very serious. It's a bit of SB space, but definitely "better" if this version of countertop becomes heavily played and you don't want to go all in on Emrakul (more later).

Fourth Plan - Leyline of the Void/Helm of Obedience - The leyline was randomly good (even when just keeping sword gone forever) and once or twice the helm did it's job, but all in all this felt very weak, especially when you don't have Leyline in your opening grip.

Fifth plan - Emrakul/Doomsday/Shelldock Isle. This was (results wise) the best plan. The games he won involved mindbreak trap (counter's emrakul) and leyline of sanctity, without both, it was extremely potent. Even Doomsday for bstorm/ritual/tendrils/IGG/Doomsday is pretty hard for them to beat. (Came up once when I had Emrakul in hand) If you are in fear of this matchup, this is the best plan I have seen so far. It's 6 cards, which is a lot to dedicate to one matchup... but it certainly makes g2 look a lot better. I need to play more vs. the other versions of Counterbalance, as I'm not sure this plan is all that great (or should I say...better than the others) vs. the other versions. I played against the bant version in a tournament this weekend and I felt confident in rounds 2 and 3 with the chrome mox "speed it up" plan.

Just thoughts.

[practical joke]

AT doomsday plan, if you know he has mindbreak trap.

Try the following

Doomsday: shelldock, duress, emrakul, chain of vapor( for leyline), doomsday

It's extremely rough though, but remember, emrakul can be played as instant speed. (read shelldock isle)


It's also to say, they do need 4 land in play to hardcast it, you can definately trick them at least once.


Also to be honest ANT is only 3 terrible match-ups.

- Dreadstill (the worst, potential fast clock, stifles, lot of counters, countertop and confidant for CA, and wastelands)
- Dark Tempo ***** (ugb *****, average clock, a lot of counters, CA, and removal for xantids/confidant, wastes+stifles)
- Countertop variants ( slow clock, limited ammount of counters next to countertop combo)


Merfolk is 50-50, discuss whatever you want about it, but I've never lost to the fish while playing ANT and it's really unnecessary to lose.

So you sideboard has 15 cards for the following:
- anti-hate cards
- ways to beat bad match-ups

Since Dreadstill hardly see any play, you can erase that one.

so 2 bad MU's left:
countertop: quite beatable by doomsday play (6 slots)
treshhold variants (ugb being the worst): none yet available, except by abusing xantids (whey those are laying, it'll be a win)
anti-hate: chain of vapors + more discard as options. (just need 4 slots for these)

so with this you have a fixed
10 slot sideboeard, leaving 5 for another bad match-up TT-lists.

so far I'm using xantids since they're merfolks worst nightmare, but they are limited against treshhold decks, those that probably do support removal.

[amonchakai]

another discussion:
In sb is better Dark confidant or xantids?
i only try BoBs and i like it so much.

[Fossil4182]

Fifth plan - Emrakul/Doomsday/Shelldock Isle. This was (results wise) the best plan. The games he won involved mindbreak trap (counter's emrakul) and leyline of sanctity, without both, it was extremely potent. Even Doomsday for bstorm/ritual/tendrils/IGG/Doomsday is pretty hard for them to beat. (Came up once when I had Emrakul in hand) If you are in fear of this matchup, this is the best plan I have seen so far. It's 6 cards, which is a lot to dedicate to one matchup... but it certainly makes g2 look a lot better. I need to play more vs. the other versions of Counterbalance, as I'm not sure this plan is all that great (or should I say...better than the others) vs. the other versions. I played against the bant version in a tournament this weekend and I felt confident in rounds 2 and 3 with the chrome mox "speed it up" plan.

What does your board with Doomsday look like? Or at least, what does your Doomsday package look like? I've heard of this plan before, but haven't seen any lists dedicate slots to it.

If the board contains Doomsday, is it worth it to play Dark Confidant, Xantid Swam? I'd imagine there are other cards in the board slots that may be work playing.

[leegoo]

@ Practical - that's a great suggestion on the doomsday pile (the duress part). Did not think about that.

On the part about Shelldock making it "instant" you could possibly also stack something silly while hiding Tendrils under it. Not sure exactly what that stack is... but it seems worth putting some thought into.

On Fish - I agree it should be a pretty good matchup. I did lose to it in a tourney last Saturday, possibly to punting the game2 (I won g1) but I'm not sure. How would you guys have handled this situation?

- My life total is 13, hand is LED, Lotus Petal, Cabal Ritual (I have threshold), Ad Nauseam, Duress (draw for turn was Duress). Swamp, Island, Underground in play. (No land drop yet)
He has Mutavault, Cursecatcher, Coralhelm (3 level up), Lord. (will be lethal next turn) I don't know his grip, but it's 3 cards.

I lead with Duress. See standstill and 2 land, take standstill. Play Lotus Petal and Lions eye diamond, tap Underground sea and Island to cast ritual and Ad Nauseam. The question is, do you respond by breaking LED?

I did not, and died miserably because of it. I'm not sure if it was right or wrong however.

On the one hand, I break LED, adding 3 (probably blue mana) - at this point I need to hit another LED and Infernal Tutor to win (I suppose I could also get VERY lucky on my flips and cast Grim Tutor or enough Brainstorm effects to get there) - this plays around cursecatcher but puts me in an awkward position if I flip nothing interesting.

On the other hand, I don't crack LED. (Which I didn't) I'm now in a position where I need to hit an infernal tutor (seen 0 so far) and either a dark ritual, land + lotus petal, or another combination of mana production (so long as it ends up producing 3 mana before cracking the LED)

In hindsight, I flip 2 LED's, an infernal tutor, 2 Cabal Rituals, a duress, land, land, ponder, thoughtseize, Ill Gotten Gains (dead)

Any thoughts on that? Did I punt or just lose the numbers game?

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

I always crack LED before ADN resolves, floating mana (you're correct chosing blue in this case, you have your landdrop to hit B) is usually much better than a simple hellbent-enabler. If you don't flip something high-cost, you'll see enough cards to win through mass-cantrips usually, if you flip something High-cost it's either a Grim (=win), an IGG (enables hellbent because you'll have a ton of mana floating once you've played all the Ritual-effects) or the Tendrils (who needs hellbent).

[practical joke]

About Xantid Swarm vs Dark Confidant:

Actually there isn't a single deck where you want confidant over swarm.
Reasons:

- dark confidant needs to be laying on the field for a while (removal takes out both) before it has effect. A xantid swarm has it's effect the next turn keeping EVERY spell safe. Merfolk for example has no answers to this. And nowadays speed still matters.
- Dark confidant does get hit by spell snare where only force and daze aim for xantids (and you can play around that)
- Dark Confidant is on-color and does not require a trop.

I only don't break LEDS after a casted Ad Nauseam when I have +1 mana float ( this is included calculated taxing spells like cursecatcher)
If I have +1 mana (including paying for cursecatchers) I don't break it since I probably only need to hit infernal +dr,cr+chrome mox, or chrome mox +led etc.

when I don't have +1 mana, I'll always crack LED. the 3 mana are needed or else your first spell you try to cast off a petal will get catchered..which is an unneeded risk. With the 3 mana you just hope to flip your tendrills or IT+ LED, or what not to win or Grim tutor (which I don't play, but I rarely use AN and prefer to combo out through iggy) Remember I don't play grim tutor, so I'm a little less mana hungry after AN, but I can flip my second one. When I have +1 exactly it's a bit iffy, and guessing is involved, depends on cards already spend and which not. when I have +2 mana I always keep LED, since you can now cast ANY mana enhancer.

R2 vs Merfolk:
Why didn't you stop flipping? after the first land? did he sacrifice his cursecatcher already?
because + I'd go, LED, LED, land, play infernal in response sac LED x3 (9 mana) = storm 6
depending on his GY, go ill-gotten gains. (5-1 for cursecatcher= 4 mana float, duress, LED, infernal tutor)
which is only a loss vs double force or force/spell snare + daze/spell pierce. you win vs 2 taxing spells, since you can go LED, LED + infernal tutor)


Also 1 reason to not like Grim tutor:
Your ill-gotten gain piles cost have now increased by 2 mana. which is a lot as always.

[leegoo]

About Xantid Swarm vs Dark Confidant:


R2 vs Merfolk:
Why didn't you stop flipping? after the first land? did he sacrifice his cursecatcher already?
because + I'd go, LED, LED, land, play infernal in response sac LED x3 (9 mana) = storm 6
depending on his GY, go ill-gotten gains. (5-1 for cursecatcher= 4 mana float, duress, LED, infernal tutor)
which is only a loss vs double force or force/spell snare + daze/spell pierce. you win vs 2 taxing spells, since you can go LED, LED + infernal tutor)


In this I think I did indeed punt. He doesn't get priority (to blow cursecatcher) until AFTER I've sacrificed the LED's in response to my Tutor... right? So I just massively punted... same with any taxing spell (daze / pierce) right?

Doh. Good to figure these things out in free tourney's :)

[AriLax]

In this I think I did indeed punt. He doesn't get priority (to blow cursecatcher) until AFTER I've sacrificed the LED's in response to my Tutor... right? So I just massively punted... same with any taxing spell (daze / pierce) right?

Doh. Good to figure these things out in free tourney's :)

LED vs Taxing Counters works out very well. LED is still a mana ability, so it doesn't use the stack (they can't respond to it). You just can only play it when you have priority, where as mana abilities can be played during the announcement of a spell or sometimes the resolution (Mana Leak).

Also, Practical Joke, costing 2 more to IGG is fine as without Grim in those cases you wouldn't even be casting IGG.

Agree with Practical Joke's general outlines for how to cast Ad Naus. The only card that punishes you for not cracking to go to 4 mana from 1 is Tendrils, and even then you can prob just flip some mana.

Finally, how often do you find yourself Tendrils comboing post board against CB-Top with the DD shell? I really just found they could never beat DD, so I'm even boarding out Tendrils as it never comes together.

[ThomasDowd]

So how bad is the merfolk matchup without xantid's i have yet to test it against a competent fish pilot. and is it winnable with just a ton of discard?

[Tammit67]

So how bad is the merfolk matchup without xantid's i have yet to test it against a competent fish pilot. and is it winnable with just a ton of discard?

It is, just remember not to run all your discard into daze. The only card they have that you caqre about is Force, as the rest you can just generate more mana to deal with

[practical joke]

So how bad is the merfolk matchup without xantid's i have yet to test it against a competent fish pilot. and is it winnable with just a ton of discard?

It is, depends on the list.

Normal fish list (20 fish, 4 force, 4 standstill, 4 daze, 4 curse) really only has force as effective counterspell.
Worlds list played spell snare and spell pierce, which can be a nuisance when you count the additional stuff as well.

Winning game 1 shouldn't be to hard. Winning game 2 is where the challenge begins because they can board in more counters (if they have em)
Even then it's winnable but it's a whole lot easier with xantids, also Xantids were the bomb against vengevival.

[Rancorous Fool]

I am having moderate success on modo right now with ANT.

3 Chrome Mox
2 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Lotus Petal
1 Island
3 Spell Pierce
4 Ponder
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Crystal Vein
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Gemstone Mine
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Ad Nauseam
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Duress
1 thoughtseize
1 Ill-Gotten Gains

Sideboard
1 Disfigure
1 Spell Pierce
3 Angel's Grace
3 Chain of Vapor
1 hurk's recall
1 Tropical Island
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Krosan Grip


That's a bit funny to read, but the only weirdness going on is the 3x spell pierce main. Since I have finished my grinding from ANT into better positioned decks, I figured I would post my list.

First: On modo, the daily metagame is populated with a few zoo and goblins, a lot of show and tell/sneak attack, a lot of team america, a lot of burn, and various countertop/thopters and gerryt tempo counter top decks. As you can see ad nauseum really was a poor choice but I know it well and have been happy with improvements to my skill level that resulted in playing through this meta.

The over abundance of counter balances, show and tells, and hymn to tourachs spurred the use of spell pierce, which has been extremely effective. However, spell pierce works exactly in opposition with the rest of the deck. Its terrible against your best match ups (zoo, goblins, etc) and spectacular versus your worst ones. Additionally, I feel somewhat awakard admitting that i dedicated 3 sideboard slots to burn. Who play's angels grace? really? what a scrub!

In the future, I will probably be upping the hurk's recalls as there is a growing contigent of tezz stacks decks that need to experience the blowout that is hurk's recall vrs stacks.

[Arsenal]

It appears as though you're running Tropical Island for 2 Krosan Grips in the sideboard. No Xantid Swarm, etc. If that's the case, why not stay on color and just play Wipe Away? You'll typically cast Grip/Wipe eot before you want to go off to get rid of that annoying Counterbalance/CotV/Gaddock Teeg/etc.

[leegoo]

Finally, how often do you find yourself Tendrils comboing post board against CB-Top with the DD shell? I really just found they could never beat DD, so I'm even boarding out Tendrils as it never comes together.

I didn't much in testing, as usually It's best just to go get Emrakul and bash face. However, if you board Tendrils out and they represent Karakas (obviously being the worst as you can't even duress it) or Humility (or even Oblivion Ring), you auto lose. As Cbalance is likely to run at least 1 of those, it seems bad not to leave one extra card in the main and not just auto lose to it. If you do board it out, I'd suggest making Enlightened tutor your first target with duress/seize.

[AriLax]

I didn't much in testing, as usually It's best just to go get Emrakul and bash face. However, if you board Tendrils out and they represent Karakas (obviously being the worst as you can't even duress it) or Humility (or even Oblivion Ring), you auto lose. As Cbalance is likely to run at least 1 of those, it seems bad not to leave one extra card in the main and not just auto lose to it. If you do board it out, I'd suggest making Enlightened tutor your first target with duress/seize.

Humility isn't actually enough, they usually need Humility and two counters (or set up CB Top) due to Chain. Oblivion Ring is 100% irrel. Basically I think it's just Karakas or bust for them. I'm willing to admit defeat to a singleton.

[Domel]

But why you want to give them one more turn to topdeck options? Isn't it just better to kill CB in one turn instead of 2??

[practical joke]

But why you want to give them one more turn to topdeck options? Isn't it just better to kill CB in one turn instead of 2??

Because we win when they don't.
Offcourse it is better to kill CB in one turn, but that's the whole problem, the deck obviously fails doing that consistently.

[venice]

I have a question towards proper sideboarding: what do you consider the right cards to take out, when bringing in all 4 Xantids?

[lorddotm]

I have a question towards proper sideboarding: what do you consider the right cards to take out, when bringing in all 4 Xantids?

Depends on your list. Ship it over and maybe we can help you.

[Domel]

Because we win when they don't.
Offcourse it is better to kill CB in one turn, but that's the whole problem, the deck obviously fails doing that consistently.

I ment why side out Tendrills when bringing in DD pack? I usually stack Sheldock Isle, Emrakul, Tendrils, mana acceleration and discard so after Emrakul bites them for 15 I am able to seal the deal with ToA.. Therefore removing ToA is bad idea in my oppinion.

[leegoo]

Humility isn't actually enough, they usually need Humility and two counters (or set up CB Top) due to Chain. Oblivion Ring is 100% irrel. Basically I think it's just Karakas or bust for them. I'm willing to admit defeat to a singleton.

You may very well be right and tendrils does come out... I admit I never even considered it. I know I hadn't even thought about what Domel suggested (above) to kill in one turn after DD'ing.

(I'll also say that my DD packages were probably horrible as well)

[practical joke]

You can put a ritual + tendrills there.

I prefer mostly to go: shelldock, chain/duress, emrakul, random, random( could be anything, even a new doomsday, if you are going to miss a turn), the piles are very board-specific.

if you are affraid of anything they can do, try EoT-ing the emrakul instead of your own turn, that way you can attack with emrakul 2 turns in a row instead of just one.

[lordofthepit]

About Xantid Swarm vs Dark Confidant:

Actually there isn't a single deck where you want confidant over swarm.


You don't miss having a Confidant against discard heavy decks (like the mirror or Deadguy/Rock/Suicide)?

[emidln]

You don't miss having a Confidant against discard heavy decks (like the mirror or Deadguy/Rock/Suicide)?

You mean decks that play generic removal like Vindicate, Maelstrom Pulse, Engineered Explosives, Pernicious Deed that they won't be siding out anyway? Diluting your deck in the face of resource denial packages is extremely sketchy.

[lordofthepit]

You mean decks that play generic removal like Vindicate, Maelstrom Pulse, Engineered Explosives, Pernicious Deed that they won't be siding out anyway? Diluting your deck in the face of resource denial packages is extremely sketchy.

I replace Preordains and maybe a Chrome Mox for the Confidants against most blue decks with slow clocks (in which case I agree that Xantid Swarm is better), against TES/ANT, and against less aggressive black builds that don't present a very fast clock (in which case you wouldn't want Xantid Swarm anyway).

I'm less experienced as a combo player than you are, but I have found that resolving a Confidant is gold in the mirror match, especially when one or both players is playing 6-7 Duress effects.

Against resource denial decks, I don't really care much about their Maelstrom Pulses, Engineered Explosives, and Pernicious Deeds. Those "answers" are pretty much dead unless I draw my "threat" (Confidant). I know they have another use because you'll probably want to play your Lion's Eye Diamond to get around their discard, but I'm much more worried about other cards in the matchup. And those Vindicates would be hitting your LED/land if you didn't have a Confidant anyway. From my experience on both sides of the matchup, I have found that the best thing to do against resource denial decks--other than win quickly if possible--is to replenish your resources quickly, and nothing besides Ad Nauseam does that as well as an unanswered Dark Confidant. The fact that they may have answers to your Confidant doesn't mean it's a bad card.

Granted, I do see how Xantid Swarm is a better option than Dark Confidant against against most of the metagame, so I'm taking out the Bobs for now and testing out Xantid Swarm instead. I just wanted P-J to chime in on his experiences without Bob.

[practical joke]

First of all:

discard, yeah..whatever.

Since you play a whopping 12 cantrips, you should be able to keep your most important spells in the T2 of you library. Using brainstrom the right way is key.
Even if they rip you hand apart, you are most likely to recover faster due to low-land count and a bloody lot of cantrips which fix your hand fast enough into a proper hand. Don't forget there's 7 protection spells which are all discard to take their hand out as well.
I'd gladly go T1 duress, to take out their seize or hymn and then start pondering like crazy afterwards.

Second:
Dark Confidant: I'm not very fond of it, I've never missed it as well.
The mirror is a die-roll anyways. Xantids is only worth it vs chants, I can't imagining really wanting it as well. With duress I want information, xantids ain't giving me that info.
With discards (chants are awesome as well), I can rip his hand apart, take out his combo-potential, while knowing what they can do.
The problem is, the average combo-deck wants to go off T2or T3. Quesstion: how often does a confidant has it's effect.
Well probably not a lot, maybe 2 turns at most. I'm not playing 6 turns in the mirror. I try to keep my cantrips to their best effect, leaving them on top as much as possible and win by that. Ad nauseams are great here.
Also, just play your LED's, they can't take it, it's 3 mana, and makes every IT into a potential ad nauseam or iggy-chain.

One of the better cards for the mirror is: Orim's Chant, but that requires white. A friend of mine split T2 at sunday's legacy event at GP Paris with the U/B/w ANT list, splashing for chants and silences. Though, he had to admit he faced a ridiculous ammount of wastelands.

As Emidln already stated: they don't even have that many cards to board in to board out all their random removal aiming at your goyf, just because you are scared for 8 cards in their deck, which most likely don't have any affect at all (unless they rip you of your last lands and you never draw any).

Xantid Swarm and Dark Confidant are only good vs decks with counters and no removal. I always ignore discard decks.

[venice]

Depends on your list. Ship it over and maybe we can help you.

My current list looks like this:

2 Island
2 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs

2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Preordain
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
2 Ad Nauseam
1 Ill-Gotten-Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Infernal Tutor

SB:

4 Doomsday
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Shell-Dock Isle
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Pithing Needle
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl´s Recall

[practical joke]

I mostly go -1 preordain, -3 thoughteize/duress + 4 xantids.
You could got -4 duress/seize + xantids, it's about preferences mostly.

This way you keep the ammount of protective cards equal or near equal, while improving the quality of the protective spells, since only a force takes out xantids, that way you go 2-for-1 while a duress only takes a single force against most decks you board them in.

[venice]

I mostly go -1 preordain, -3 thoughteize/duress + 4 xantids.
You could got -4 duress/seize + xantids, it's about preferences mostly.

This way you keep the ammount of protective cards equal or near equal, while improving the quality of the protective spells, since only a force takes out xantids, that way you go 2-for-1 while a duress only takes a single force against most decks you board them in.

Thanks a lot! Does your description also match Tempo Decks like Canadian/ Team America/ Tempo Bant.dec or only the Merfolk MU in particular? I just don´t feel comfortable cutting any discard against the aforementioned - but taking out Cantrips/ Mana doesn´t really make sense either. Normally, I´d go like -1 Preordain, -1 Ponder, -1 Cabal, -1 Chrome, but sometimes I found myself in situations where I was either lacking Mana or Cantrips to find IT or AN/IGG, but with tons of protection in hand/ on board... maybe I´ll try a split - taking out 2 discard, 1 cantrip, 1 cabal and see how it works.

And what about the Combo MU? Of course against decks without Chant-Effects, Xantids stay in the board - but against the "standard" TES list for instance or against DDFT, what would you take out there? Again, I feel every discard spell is golden in those matches, thus cutting any seems bad. Or is this false logic?