[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) [Archive] - Page 16

Tombstalker

06-16-2012, 12:59 PM

Thanks man your reply was very in depth and informative, still trying to wrap my brain around this stuff, storm combo feels like archmage level magic.
I like Citanuls list so maybe that could be a place to start, although I think I would prefer discards to chants, at least for my local meta which is heavy on dredge, reanimator, maverick, sneak and show and even some goblins, not much combo mirrors. So with that being said would you mind giving an example UBr list that incorporates the speed of ANT (and lower difficulty) with the option of DD and possibly BW? Or at least something that would fair well against the decks I have mentioned? In testing I have loved casting doomsday, whereas I havent been able to get IT to work as well in the mix, makes sense now that youve stated why they dont play well together. Anyway thanks again.

aaronm678

06-16-2012, 08:19 PM

Counterbalance (without wastelands) is a good MU for DDFT and pretty terrible for UBw ANT. UB/UBr/UBg ANT are decent against it because of their discard + speed.

Is this just because of the Shelldock Emrakul plan? Admittedly, I was playtesting against a deck with 3 wastelands, but for the life of me, I couldn't find a dark ritual deck with an even 30% matchup here.

Also, from my experience, BUr and BUw ANT decks have similar RUG matchups (not amazing, but certainly very winable if they don't bring in counterbalance- and the heavily Maverick metagamed versions that were popular at the SCGs for a while are very good matchups.

Tombstalker

06-16-2012, 11:01 PM

Rekk

06-17-2012, 12:42 AM

Tombstalker

06-17-2012, 12:29 PM

why are you choosing doomsday over past in flames. also wouldn't this question be better asked in the ddft thread (which it seems like this deck is geared towards)
To be honest I havent really tested with PiF. My reasoning is having both PiF and DD main is greedy so I just picked one. The reason I choose DD, besides the fact that I just like the card, is that its black and only costs 3. In addition I considered grave hate and how early I may cast it might mean not enough cards/options in my grave. These factors make DD seem more attractive to me than needing 1 more mana and red with limited options in the yard to choose from. I am a novice at best with this deck though so any insight is appreciated.
As for where to post this, I was not sure if this deck qualifies as DDFT or ANT or some hybrid of the two.

salvor

06-17-2012, 01:20 PM

Tombstalker's list certainly does not belong to DDFT thread, as he plays ANT with additional option of doomsdaying, not the other way around (of course it's a hybrid, but there are no hybrid thread here). By the way I advise adding cabal rituals and changing Ideas Unbound to Meditate.

aaronm678

06-17-2012, 05:50 PM

OK so I think ive settled on a list but before ordering the last few pieces im missing I was hoping you guys could give me some critique.

(lands currently available)
4 scalding tarn
4 polluted delta
3 bloodstained mire
2 underground sea
1 badlands
1 island
1 swamp

4 LED
4 dark ritual
4 lotus petal
1 rain of filth

4 SDT
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
1 gitaxian probe

4 duress
3 thoughtseize

3 infernal tutor
3 burning wish
1 ad nauseam

1 doomsday
1 ideas unbound
1 chain of vapor
1 tendrils of agony

Sideboard 15
3 doomsday
1 slaughter pact
1 meltdown
1 deathmark
1 virtue's ruin
1 massacre
1 ill gotten gains
1 infernal tutor
1 infernal contract
1 empty the warrens
1 tendrils of agony
1 emrakul
1 shelldock isle

Thoughts?

It seems like you need some more fast mana - you can pretty easily cut gitaxian probe, rain of filth, and a duress effect for Cabal Rituals (I get that probe and Rain make doomsday much easier, but you probably shouldn't be going for DDay with this list unless you have a SDT out, which makes probe kinda unnecessary, and I've never been a huge fan of Rain of Filth.

Also, I don't particularly like IT in the sideboard- it takes a pretty obscene amount of mana to Wish for it into anything productive, and at that point you could probably win using some other method. Also, its your best maindeck card, its kind of counterproductive to run it in the SB.

Tombstalker

06-17-2012, 08:30 PM

Thanks for the suggestions, I think I will be adding a couple cabal rituals since I have needed more fast mana in testing. I havent learned any piles for meditate yet so not sure I can make that change. Also I was under the impression that IU is better when playing adN main.

Thanks also for the insight on IT in the board, seemed like a good way to loop back into anything and but I definitely see your point, so should I increase IT to 4-of?

Tombstalker

06-18-2012, 07:47 PM

Is it ok to play sensei's top in ANT (or TNT)? Say in place of preordain. If so is the full 4 ok or only 1-2?

Telperion

06-18-2012, 07:53 PM

Leave the ST in doomsday. ANT is about disrupting turn 1 and 2 and going off asap. You have to race mother of runes/hatebears and do not want to give RUG too many draw steps. Sinking 2 mana to hit a land drop is not where this deck wants to be.

Tombstalker

06-18-2012, 08:16 PM

Thanks, also I just re-read Jamiew89's post and he actually addresses that question. Just having problems in play testing with UBr ANT vs DDFT vs hybrid. Going off with adN is sweet and easier but not always reliable especially with hate or when decks like TA disrupt me and shred my hand then I just draw mana sources. DD seems like it has more threats and recovers easier from disruption with DD and tops but I cant always hit lethal with it. Effing frustrating.

Telperion

06-18-2012, 08:35 PM

ThomasDowd

06-19-2012, 12:54 AM

The metagame shift to maxing out on spell pierce and vendilion clique seeing increased play is really miserable for Ad Nauseum right now. To be honest, if you have the itch to play combo right now, Hive Mind and High Tide are better positioned. Perhaps if Griselbrand and/or SnT get banned on Wednesday, ANT will become better positioned again.

High tide is not so good vs. sneak/show (misdirection is pretty amazing versus turnabout), they are also about half a turn faster and emrakul blowing up all of your permanents is pretty miserable, especially since you want them to produce a bunch of mana down the road. and reanimator is just a little bit faster, and definitely do not care about their life total. as they are about a full turn faster than tide. i would personally suggest TES at the current moment, as you can actually race reanimator and griselbrand. we shall see what wednesday brings. until then just wait.

MTG Junkie

06-19-2012, 11:07 PM

Made top 4 out of 30 or so people with ANT In Flames at Mythic Games Saturday.

Rd 1-Lotus Cobra dot deck (W2-0)
Rd 2-Nic fit (W2-0)
Rd 3-Merfolk (It was ether 2-0 or 2-1 ether way I won)
Rd 4-Mavrick (W2-0)
Rd 5-Burn (ID to go get food)
Quarterfinals-White Black Stone blade(W2-1)
Semifinals-The bane of Combos Existence,MUD (L1-2)

My list for refrence

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
1 Ad Nauseam

4 Ponder
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Burning Wish
3 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames -MVP

4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond -MVP

1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire

Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction -Never had to use them.
2 Echoing Truth - I chose to play them over 2 Chain of Vapor because of L.O.T.S.
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Deathmark
1 Past in Flames -Never had to use it.
1 Cabal therapy
1 Infest - Infest was good to me,it killed two Lotus Cobras where Virtue's Ruin wouldn't have.
1 Ill-Gotten Gains - Never had to use it.
1 Meltdown -Meltdown wasn't that good against MUD,There was just to man y prison artifacts out after Wastelanding me and i couldn't Meltdown for enough.
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grim Tutor -MVP

aaronm678

06-19-2012, 11:27 PM

The metagame shift to maxing out on spell pierce and vendilion clique seeing increased play is really miserable for Ad Nauseum right now. To be honest, if you have the itch to play combo right now, Hive Mind and High Tide are better positioned. Perhaps if Griselbrand and/or SnT get banned on Wednesday, ANT will become better positioned again.

V Clique and Spell Pierce aren't too hard to play around - it's Counterbalance seeing play and Reanimator being a reasonable meta choice that concerns me for ANT.

If your opponent is playing V Clique, just play as you would against any discard - keep your strong cards on top of your deck and be very conservative with your brainstorms...and for spell pierce...spell pierce has been pretty damn common as a 4x between main and SB since it was printed, so...continue playing around it like always?

Tombstalker

06-25-2012, 11:43 AM

I have been playing UBr ANT with 4 IT/3 BW main and I have been wanting a tutor in the board but there is no way im gonna pay the price of grim tutor. Anyway ive been looking for alternatives that dont require hellbent (and because I want 4 IT main) and I was wondering what you guys thought of beseech the queen? Ya its kinda crappy main but I was thinking as a wish target we should likely have BBB making it comparable to grim tutor. Thoughts? Alternatives?

dionykos

06-25-2012, 11:57 AM

Beseech the Queen has a converted mana cost of 6. You don't want to see that in a deck running Ad Nauseam.

EDIT: sry, just saw it was a BW target. Ignore this useless post.

ThomasDowd

06-25-2012, 11:59 AM

ThomasDowd

06-25-2012, 12:00 PM

Beseech the Queen has a mana cost of 6. You don't want to see that in a deck running Ad Nauseam.

It's a BW target. good job reading.

Tombstalker

06-25-2012, 03:48 PM

Beseech the Queen has a converted mana cost of 6. You don't want to see that in a deck running Ad Nauseam.

EDIT: sry, just saw it was a BW target. Ignore this useless post.
No problem and your right the cmc and the alternate cost would suck main but maybe not as much as BW target.

Flip your IT/ BW count, stick the 4th IT in the board. it's actually awesome and good.
I like this plan although I currently own only 3 BW but thats no biggy to find a 4th. Does this hurt the AdN plan much though?

Tammit67

06-25-2012, 03:58 PM

Thoughts? Alternatives?

Personally I like tutoring for 5 cards with my BBB (Doomsday). Obviously this takes more setup and some life, but is a guaranteed win with only BW in hand, which might be what you are looking for.

You can do worse than DD, and i think beseech is somewhat worse. Grim tutor is somewhere between the two. At least with grim you don't have to revel the card and give the opponent info.

Tombstalker

06-25-2012, 04:14 PM

Personally I like tutoring for 5 cards with my BBB (Doomsday). Obviously this takes more setup and some life, but is a guaranteed win with only BW in hand, which might be what you are looking for.

You can do worse than DD, and i think beseech is somewhat worse. Grim tutor is somewhere between the two. At least with grim you don't have to revel the card and give the opponent info.
This is all true and I agree with you on DD. I originally got into storm combo to play DDFT but after playing against some real opponents with the deck I decided I actually like ANT better.
DD is amazing as an engine and better at navigating hate but my problem is that its even less interactive. This is a trait of combo in general but DD is like divesting yourself from the game while you solve a quantum physicals problem..then kicking their ass afterwards. Just not my style.

ThomasDowd

06-25-2012, 04:54 PM

No problem and your right the cmc and the alternate cost would suck main but maybe not as much as BW target.

I like this plan although I currently own only 3 BW but thats no biggy to find a 4th. Does this hurt the AdN plan much though?

not really, I use PiF as my main go to engine, or just chaining tutors, the only time I want a fast AN is against maverick to beat hate bears and you can board in the 4th one there if you really want to (i don't most of the time). also for IT>AN you NEED the LED in hand or on board. Where as burning wish has no restrictions other than red mana. most of the time you can even use IT to fill up on rituals so you can BW>PiF.

my build is a little slower though and I don't really rely on AN, if you want that as your main storm engine play TES.

if anything it makes it better since instead of having to flip IT + led after AN you just BW + red source if you didn't already have an extra laying around.

Tammit67

06-25-2012, 05:01 PM

DD is amazing as an engine and better at navigating hate but my problem is that its even less interactive. This is a trait of combo in general but DD is like divesting yourself from the game while you solve a quantum physicals problem..then kicking their ass afterwards. Just not my style.

I find it to be incredible interactive. You can adapt to their disruption in a large number of ways instead of sitting there waiting to top deck some out.

Sure against mono w soldiers combo is not interactive, but against blue or in the face of hate we are forced to interact on some level, right? And DD does that best IMO. Running one in the board is still your best bet.

Beseech is ok, I just really dislike showing them what you plan on getting with it.

aaronm678

06-25-2012, 07:57 PM

No problem and your right the cmc and the alternate cost would suck main but maybe not as much as BW target.

I like this plan although I currently own only 3 BW but thats no biggy to find a 4th. Does this hurt the AdN plan much though?

I've done a lot of testing with this plan, and I really don't think this is worth it. Infernal Tutor is your second best card maindeck (second to LED) - you want to play four of them, as you want to draw them, and multiples if possible.

As far as Beseech the Queen, it's very awkward, as your most common tutor targets are:

1) Tendrils
2) IGG/PiF
3) Ad Nauseam

And...typically this deck does not reliably have 4 lands in play, and almost never has 5 lands in play. If you can get a Grim Tutor, it's definitely worth running, otherwise something like Rhystic Tutor will work more often than Beseech the Queen.

Tombstalker

06-25-2012, 08:08 PM

ThomasDowd- would you mind posting your current list for me?

I find it to be incredible interactive. You can adapt to their disruption in a large number of ways instead of sitting there waiting to top deck some out.

Sure against mono w soldiers combo is not interactive, but against blue or in the face of hate we are forced to interact on some level, right? And DD does that best IMO. Running one in the board is still your best bet.

Beseech is ok, I just really dislike showing them what you plan on getting with it.
I guess less interactive might have been too strong a statement and dont get me wrong, I love the concept of doomsday and the skill needed to play it plus the power. Ive just had less positive results then I expected (some fizzles) but mostly the aspect of actually going through the motions of building the pile and winning while my opponent sits in idle, which in normal casual play does matter to me.

salvor

06-25-2012, 11:18 PM

This is all true and I agree with you on DD. I originally got into storm combo to play DDFT but after playing against some real opponents with the deck I decided I actually like ANT better.

I fail to see why ANT is more interactive vs DDFT. Actually they are either equally interactive(im most matchups) or DDFT is more interactive (in matchup vs hatebears.deck(Maverick) ANT wants to be just faster(small interactivity) when DDFT can win through hate).

I guess less interactive might have been too strong a statement and dont get me wrong, I love the concept of doomsday and the skill needed to play it plus the power. Ive just had less positive results then I expected (some fizzles) but mostly the aspect of actually going through the motions of building the pile and winning while my opponent sits in idle, which in normal casual play does matter to me.

I suppose problem is time? You spend too much time on building piles? If you play it more, you'll be able to think on opponents turn/be faster. Also in casual environment you can reveal the cards and show your opponent how are you comboing.

ThomasDowd

06-26-2012, 12:04 PM

ThomasDowd- would you mind posting your current list for me?

Sure. The virtue's ruin should probably be a deathmark, the bounce split can be messed with, I don't know if i would play the meltdown going forward, I want to cut it for something but I'm not sure what. (most likely 3rd extirpate if reanimator is super popular, or the 4th bounce spell)

If you have any questions about card choices just ask.

1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Ritual
1 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Past in Flames
4 Ponder
3 Preordain
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Thoughtseize

1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Chrome Mox
1 Echoing Truth
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Extirpate
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Meltdown
1 Past in Flames
2 Slaughter Pact
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Thoughtseize
1 Virtue's Ruin

MTG Junkie

06-26-2012, 11:11 PM

I'm curious to here about your experiences with Slaughter Pact.

ThomasDowd

06-26-2012, 11:55 PM

I'm curious to here about your experiences with Slaughter Pact.

Kills Thalia for one mana. Kills everything else for zero. Is sweet to flip off AN (which is probably your main plan in that matchup anyway) at any point. Also is storm +1 at that point vs any dude. I love the card. Most of the time I take out a lot of the discard versus maverick and just board in a pile of bounce and the pacts. Drawing a thoughtseize at any point after your opener is miserable on the draw and is not much better on the play, and all of their hate is permanent based. I hate the echoing truth and it should probably be another chain since trying to mise your one out to a chalice on one is miserable (if meltdown is cut).

I have killed many an ethersworn canonist with slaughter pact.

Tombstalker

06-27-2012, 10:02 AM

If you have any questions about card choices just ask.
I like your list. How would RoF be in place if mox and something else as a 3 of? Similar to liams list from pg 173. I want to play PiF main but from what I've read it wants more rituals. I guess what I'm asking is do you miss RoF with PiF main? I don't currently own any but I may pick some up. Other than that I really like cabal therapy + probe over TS/preordain, especially since sneak and show can't missdirect it as accurately I've found and probe is just good. Thoughts?

ThomasDowd

06-27-2012, 11:56 AM

I like your list. How would RoF be in place if mox and something else as a 3 of? Similar to liams list from pg 173. I want to play PiF main but from what I've read it wants more rituals. I guess what I'm asking is do you miss RoF with PiF main? I don't currently own any but I may pick some up. Other than that I really like cabal therapy + probe over TS/preordain, especially since sneak and show can't missdirect it as accurately I've found and probe is just good. Thoughts?

The chrome mox is there so your AN flips aren't as miserable for IMS, also will randomly help you get hellbent and it is kind of like the ghetto 16th land. I haven't really messed with RoF but can understand wanting the inclusion, if so I'd start cutting lotus petals, and possibly cabal rituals. I would not count on RoF as any more than a +1 on mana, randomly sometimes you might get a +2. The way the deck is built you want to go kind of long (turn 3/4), so in that case cabal rituals are almost always +3(85%+). with that being said the RoF, may make PiF about a half a turn faster but I would have to get some testing in.

Overall I do not know what I would cut for rite of flames, costing one versus zero for artifact sources is gigantic and also only producing red mana is a significant drawback IMO(only ever need RR, or rarely RRR). I would maybe look to cut C rit's but the investment to mana is so insane, eventually you get to a point where playing around daze and pierce in multiples becomes trivial, and the only thing you fear is force of will.

I played with probe/ therapy for a while, and maybe I'm just not a master but I hated it. Having selection instead of just a cantrip is huge. I never found myself trying to kill my opponent in the first few turns so the mana requirement on preordain never bothered me. Also every single probe after the first one is miserable. Paying mana for probe is a really bad feeling.

On therapy; someone put it to me this way:

"Would you pay one black mana to have your opponent draw a card?"
"No"
"Well that's what it's like when you miss with therapy"

They were slightly off, you are actually discarding a card, which is significantly worse, since often all of Storm's cards are worth a little more than everyone else's.

If I am going to pay 2 life I want to take something from their hand. Misdirection doesn't matter (as the owner of the spell you still choose).

Edit: Just looked at Liam's list, I will probably try something like that at some point, I have produced U off of petals to flashback ponder's in the GY and got there a few too many times. Oh and BTW ponder is the best cantrip in the deck in the end. I have gotten there off chaining flashback'ed cantrips in my yard after being extracted on tutors a bunch of times. Never scoop.

MTG Junkie

06-27-2012, 01:10 PM

Kills Thalia for one mana. Kills everything else for zero. Is sweet to flip off AN (which is probably your main plan in that matchup anyway) at any point. Also is storm +1 at that point vs any dude. I love the card. Most of the time I take out a lot of the discard versus maverick and just board in a pile of bounce and the pacts. Drawing a thoughtseize at any point after your opener is miserable on the draw and is not much better on the play, and all of their hate is permanent based. I hate the echoing truth and it should probably be another chain since trying to mise your one out to a chalice on one is miserable (if meltdown is cut).

I have killed many an ethersworn canonist with slaughter pact.

Sounds reasonable.

Me personally I like having more outs game 1 against Maverick. That's why I play Dethmark/Infest in my board.

ThomasDowd

06-27-2012, 01:24 PM

Sounds reasonable.

Me personally I like having more outs game 1 against Maverick. That's why I play Dethmark/Infest in my board.

There is a virtue's ruin in the board.......

I think if you are expending two burning wishes game one versus maverick to deal with bears you have probably lost at that point anyway.

Edit: I may switch it to a Deathmark, since 2 is much easier than 4.

apistat_commander

06-27-2012, 02:30 PM

There is a virtue's ruin in the board.......

I think if you are expending two burning wishes game one versus maverick to deal with bears you have probably lost at that point anyway.

Edit: I may switch it to a Deathmark, since 2 is much easier than 4.

I had a few questions about your list. I have been testing something similar (the probe/therapy build, which I didn't like that much).

- Do you feel that 7 tutors is too few? Are you consistently able to draw into action?

- Are 3 basics enough? In my testing with UBr ANT I felt like I was either playing a slower TES or a less stable UB ANT deck.

MTG Junkie

06-27-2012, 02:49 PM

There is a virtue's ruin in the board.......

I think if you are expending two burning wishes game one versus maverick to deal with bears you have probably lost at that point anyway.

Edit: I may switch it to a Deathmark, since 2 is much easier than 4.

I think you may have been offended.
If so that's not how I ment it,I was simply stating what I prefer.

I agree if you're casting 2 Wishes for hate cards you're probably out of the game.
I play both because I like to be more versatile, for example if they play turn 1 Mother of Ruins Infest will be the card I wish for. If there is no Mother of Ruins and they just have Thalia ill go the faster route and get Deathmark.

All this is based on game 1s assuming you can't just kill them t1 or t2.

ThomasDowd

06-27-2012, 03:22 PM

I had a few questions about your list. I have been testing something similar (the probe/therapy build, which I didn't like that much).

- Do you feel that 7 tutors is too few? Are you consistently able to draw into action?

- Are 3 basics enough? In my testing with UBr ANT I felt like I was either playing a slower TES or a less stable UB ANT deck.

7 is fine. Since this deck is about a turn slower than TES you can often find action anyway. 3 basics have been fine for me, you only ever need red the turn you go off so volcanic is often the last land you fetch. (you probably could go down to one volcanic but I have needed RR and RRR enough times that I wouldn't want to) I wish I had another black basic source sometimes, but having a more flexible tutor in burning wish and a great engine is worth the red splash, having just the tutor chain in the UB builds is pretty bad, and since those decks just want to hit land drops any clock makes your AN's worse and grim tutors bad, and the CMC in UB is already higher than TES in that regards with action.

In reality you do fall somewhere in between TES and UB, which is probably why I like it so much.

ThomasDowd

06-27-2012, 03:26 PM

I think you may have been offended.
If so that's not how I ment it,I was simply stating what I prefer.

I agree if you're casting 2 Wishes for hate cards you're probably out of the game.
I play both because I like to be more versatile, for example if they play turn 1 Mother of Ruins Infest will be the card I wish for. If there is no Mother of Ruins and they just have Thalia ill go the faster route and get Deathmark.

All this is obviously assuming you can't just kill them t1 or t2.

Not really, I just thought you might have missed the wish target, sorry about my tone, if it came off weird. I could see playing both the deathmark and a sweeper, I would still keep the bounce / pact package in tact I think though and maybe cut the meltdown.

I often found that just getting the sweeper was fine most of the time though since it just kills everything. I'll give it a shot.

Tombstalker

06-27-2012, 10:17 PM

ThomasDowd

06-27-2012, 10:44 PM

I never really played against misdirection with discard, good to know I control which card is discarded. This actually makes therapy worse against misdirection, bummer. Now I'm reconsidering RoF although liams list looked pretty well equipped to abuse PiF, guess ill just proxy a few hands first. Thanks for the insightful comments.
Edit- forgot to ask why chrome mox over mox diamond? Pitching extra lands seems better than pitching business spells and losing potential storm count.

Often after your AN flip you have redundant dead cards such as excess cantrips or discard spells. those get imprinted on Chrome mox, in this regard mox diamond would be better.

but before AN you often have extra spells (extra discard spells, cantrips you don't need, a redundant burning wish) to imprint onto a chrome mox (also can aid in hellbent), but not always with land so in a deck with 15 lands and 44 other spells(8 of which cannot be imprinted) it is a little easier to imprint the chrome mox than ditch a land.

again, only as a one of in the starting 60 for that reason, and it is a lot better than the 4th preordain. Boarding into the second one makes the AN better and speeds you up a little bit, for anywhere where you are relying on AN.

Sloshthedark

06-28-2012, 03:27 AM

I never really played against misdirection with discard, good to know I control which card is discarded. This actually makes therapy worse against misdirection, bummer. Now I'm reconsidering RoF although liams list looked pretty well equipped to abuse PiF, guess ill just proxy a few hands first. Thanks for the insightful comments.
Edit- forgot to ask why chrome mox over mox diamond? Pitching extra lands seems better than pitching business spells and losing potential storm count.

Well at least its 2for1 since you don't have to discard something... I was very disappointed with RoF list, it's more problems than benefits, it's really complicated to fetch the right color (impossible) while on few lands = wasteland actually matters, and is often stuck in your all black hand/the other way around, i really can't recommend it, you need a primary business color for deck to work. I have seen interesting Grinding station like list with Burning wish that used red as a primary color

Tombstalker

06-28-2012, 05:56 PM

If I must cast cabal ritual with only 6 cards in the yard is there a way I can generate BBBBB instead of BBB? i.e. some storm pilot trick im missing?

emidln

06-28-2012, 06:47 PM

If I must cast cabal ritual with only 6 cards in the yard is there a way I can generate BBBBB instead of BBB? i.e. some storm pilot trick im missing?

Break LED. This happens very frequently since you need a draw spell to set it up, and the only one where it really makes sense is SDT (if you had BS, you could just wait until after you cast Brainstorm and it was in the graveyard to make 7 cards).

NesretepNoj

06-28-2012, 11:22 PM

Break LED. This happens very frequently since you need a draw spell to set it up, and the only one where it really makes sense is SDT (if you had BS, you could just wait until after you cast Brainstorm and it was in the graveyard to make 7 cards).

To elaborate a bit: If you have four mana available with Infernal Tutor, Cabal Ritual, and LED in hand, but only six cards in your graveyard, a little trick is to play out the LED, then cast Infernal Tutor and in response cast Cabal Ritual and in response to CRitual crack the LED. When CRitual resolves, the LED will be in the graveyard and provide the seventh card.

Tombstalker

06-28-2012, 11:47 PM

ThomasDowd

06-29-2012, 04:14 AM

Yes ok thanks thats what I was looking for guys, I thought it worked that way but sometimes these things get complicated in discussion so thanks.

Ive really been enjoying the UBr version although after testing I found RoF to be pretty underwhelming (as advised by ThomasDowd and Sloshthedark) so its out.

I have been doing pretty well with the deck but I find maverick to be a bitch if I dont win t1-2 because mom + thalia + teeg + mindcensor is brutal and thats just game 1. Heck even just thalia is a huge pain. How do storm decks without wish even win against these guys?
Against mav Ive been going for early wish into EtW alot (if I cant win outright) and also siding into EtW, slaughter pact, CoV and IoK, but is there a better way to deal with them?
Sometimes ill wish for massacre but not have enough mana to wipe the same turn and then teeg will hit the board, hell I even got owned by a random lucky bojuka bog once heh. I also have infect in my SB but it is always too expensive when I need it. Ive never seen hate be quite this effective against an archtype except maybe against dredge. Still this is quite a fun deck to pilot and im sure ill get better.

The builds without wish often have few(Grim tutor>CoV) to no outs game one versus a thalia. I wouldn't board in the EtW as you are just trying to T1-T2 them either via an early EtW via wish or an AN, and if that window closes then you are on a sweeper plan. also massacre, although free is horrible since it cannot be cast under a teeg. i play virtues ruin there, and although it may cost 4 mana under a thalia, it kills everything and eliminates their clock effectively giving you a turn or two to draw more gas and /or another removal spell if they have another thalia in hand.

playing around grave hate is pretty easy after you get some more practice in, it's actually really bad, also if it is extraction it is actually good for you (essentially +2 storm) because cantrips surprisingly get there alot.

Tombstalker

06-29-2012, 03:53 PM

Ok I have some more questions and ideas but beer with me (heh) since im still learning the intricacies of this deck.

ad nauseam- obviously a sick ass draw spell but I rarely ever use it and from what ive read most people here feel the same. It may be blaspheme but is this card maindeck worthy still? Aggressive decks just seem to drop my life so quickly I cant usually choose this option. Maybe im doing it wrong idk.

empty the warrens- this card has been great against delver decks and even maverick and sneak and show t1, is there a reason why dont I see this in the main anymore? Ive been using cabal therapy + probe and along with wish into warrens ive had some dredge-esque moments where ive just shredded peoples hands with free therapies and generated storm from/for nothing.

ill-gotten gains- this currently occupys space in my board because its cool but after trying PiF ive never opted for it. Can I remove this or is it worthwhile as an alternative win to PiF/AdN?

Lastly what do you guys think of innocent blood? Not always great against aggro but I was thinking specifically for show and tell into emrakul/griselbrand (not that it beats griselbrand anyway but emrakul is another story). Oh and what is the current 'standard' SB for a UBr deck?

Tammit67

06-29-2012, 04:11 PM

ad nauseam- obviously a sick ass draw spell but I rarely ever use it and from what ive read most people here feel the same. It may be blaspheme but is this card maindeck worthy still? Aggressive decks just seem to drop my life so quickly I cant usually choose this option. Maybe im doing it wrong idk. It's there because drawing it naturally is insane, and it is really strong if you have the way to cast it early. It gives you more options at minimal drawback, which is ideal

empty the warrens- this card has been great against delver decks and even maverick and sneak and show t1, is there a reason why dont I see this in the main anymore? Ive been using cabal therapy + probe and along with wish into warrens ive had some dredge-esque moments where ive just shredded peoples hands with free therapies and generated storm from/for nothing. On the other hand, drawing empty is often dead beyond turn 2. If you have enough mana to combo off into empty via tutors, could you not have found a way to tendrils for a sure win? I don;t think we are fast enough to use it reliably, hence relegated to the board

ill-gotten gains- this currently occupys space in my board because its cool but after trying PiF ive never opted for it. Can I remove this or is it worthwhile as an alternative win to PiF/AdN? Against Burn or other fast aggro matchups, I personally feel it is a good choice. Often setting up PiF takes additional turns over IGG (and IGG is hardly ever slower than PiF, the exception being not enough storm) and that added speed against decks that only interact through the redzone has been great for me, but if your meta does not warrant this, by all means. I have won several games because IGG was there, and before adding it, I had lost games where if I had it, I would have won. I like more options

Lastly what do you guys think of innocent blood? Not always great against aggro but I was thinking specifically for show and tell into emrakul/griselbrand (not that it beats griselbrand anyway but emrakul is another story). Oh and what is the current 'standard' SB for a UBr deck?

Not a huge fan of boarding removal for other combo decks at all. Wipe away at least hits CB (although not emrakyl), but your best bet is speed, IMO.

Tombstalker

06-29-2012, 05:04 PM

Tammit67- thanks for the help your answers make sense. EtW and IGG will both stay in my board as 1 each, and a single AdN main.
As for EtW vs winning with tendrils, I have only been using EtW on turns 1-2 where its been great, just didnt think about topdecking it later than that.

MTG Junkie

06-29-2012, 10:53 PM

It would be fantastic if the primer was updated.

ThomasDowd

06-30-2012, 02:07 AM

It would be fantastic if the primer was updated.

The OG post is 4+ years old, I hope people see that when they open the thread and fast forward to the last 20 or so pages, but I can understand the want for it.

NesretepNoj

06-30-2012, 04:06 AM

It would be fantastic if the primer was updated.

Even though it isn't fully up-to-date either, I still find Ari Lax's Storm Primer (http://www.gatheringmagic.com/legacy-storm-primer/) to be one of the best articles about storm as it gives great insight into the fundamentals of playing the deck (and even combo in general); something most primers omit.

ThomasDowd

06-30-2012, 04:21 AM

Even though it isn't fully up-to-date either, I still find Ari Lax's Storm Primer (http://www.gatheringmagic.com/legacy-storm-primer/) to be one of the best articles about storm as it gives great insight into the fundamentals of playing the deck (and even combo in general); something most primers omit.

Liam's TNT primer may be a little bit better with the way the current lists are built (BW). I'll link in the morning. but agreed otherwise.

salvor

06-30-2012, 05:30 AM

I saw that a (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8578&iddeck=62581) lot (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8497&iddeck=61938) of (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8501&iddeck=61969) builds (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8330&iddeck=60705) run some number (two) SDT and don't run ponder. Why? I can't get it. Can anybody clarify?

Tombstalker

06-30-2012, 11:13 AM

salvor
I saw that a lot of builds run some number (two) SDT and don't run ponder. Why? I can't get it. Can anybody clarify?
Looks like all those list choose preordain over ponder so the SDTs actually occupy the place of preordain in more mainstream lists. Still new to this archtype but thats my impression.
Ive been running 1-2 tops over preordain and I love their ability to grind when needed. Sure they can be mana intensive early but I often have mana for EoT activation without expending cantrips and they will usually draw FoW turn zero. They are sick for desperation digs in conjunction with fetches and cantrips plus I like the way they can make hands keepable that would otherwise be questionable if top was a preordain instead.

Edit- im playing with burning wish with PiF side and main. Do I really need to put an IT in the board? This has been my design but since Im waiting on the 4th BW to arrive I havent put the 4th IT in the board and so far I havent really missed the option, probably due to PiF in the board.

MTG Junkie

06-30-2012, 12:56 PM

When I played at Mythic Games I never wished for Past in Flames,I always wished for :tongue:Grim Tutor.
You always want/need a Tutor when trying to complete the Past in Flames loop,so I maxed out on Tutors with 4 Infernal Tutors main and 1 Grim Tutor side.
I understand every body can't get Grim Tutors, hell I barrowed the one I used.
That being said 4 Burning Wish,3 Infernal Tutor main and 1 Infernal Tutor side is the next best thing.
I would keep the Tutor in your board and cut th e Past in Flames for something else useful.

MTG Junkie

06-30-2012, 01:42 PM

Even though it isn't fully up-to-date either, I still find Ari Lax's Storm Primer (http://www.gatheringmagic.com/legacy-storm-primer/) to be one of the best articles about storm as it gives great insight into the fundamentals of playing the deck (and even combo in general); something most primers omit.

Wasn't a bad read,I alredy know all that stuff though.
When I was reading the thread primer I guess I was looking to see if there was anything I overlooked.
There wasn't lol,there was just a bunch of outdated info.

Tombstalker

06-30-2012, 02:39 PM

When I played at Mythic Games I never wished for Past in Flames,I always wished for Grim Tutor.
You always want/need a Tutor when trying to complete the Past in Flames loop,so I maxed out on Tutors with 4 Infernal Tutors main and 1 Grim Tutor side.
I understand every body can't get Grim Tutors, hell I barrowed the one I used.
That being said 4 Burning Wish,3 Infernal Tutor main and 1 Infernal Tutor side is the next best thing.
I would keep the Tutor in your board and cut th e Past in Flames for something else useful.
This makes sense and was my original intent since theres no way in hell im paying 150 for a card like grim tutor. I think PiF side is still good though because if I do have a tutor in my grave then it reduces the cost of the PiF 'loop'.

Off topic im trying to figure out when to search for anti-hate. Specifically maverick since they run soo many hate bears. Basically ive been trying not to panic when things like teeg hit the board but start to worry when thalias and ethersworn cannonists or mindcensors hit. So what is the point when I hit the panic button and switch plans to deal with these guys?

Sloshthedark

06-30-2012, 04:33 PM

@mtg junkie, not a good choice BW into Grim into Pif loop is really mana hungry, better Grim main IT side, BW into IT into PiF = Grim into Pif loop... Grim side is legitimate choice, but feels clumsy

MTG Junkie

06-30-2012, 05:51 PM

@mtg junkie, not a good choice BW into Grim into Pif loop is really mana hungry, better Grim main IT side, BW into IT into PiF = Grim into Pif loop... Grim side is legitimate choice, but feels clumsy

Wishing for Grim Tutor is a back up plan,that's why I play 1 in the side.
I play 4 I.T. main to keep it fast and consistent.
If you try to go for the loop all in one turn it obviously cost more mana. Witch is not that hard seeing how that's what the deck does,make mana.
Wishing for it the turn before you go off is also a good idea.

You are entitled to your opinion and that's fine.
If it doesn't work for you that's fine to.
I'm not telling people what to do. I'm saying what works for me.
With that be said,don't tell me its not a good choice.

MTG Junkie

07-01-2012, 11:44 PM

ThomasDowd- I saw your list on Starcity,congrates on comming in 46th.

I hope there will be a report!

ThomasDowd

07-02-2012, 12:41 AM

Moving the next two days, will do when I get some time.

List for reference:
Artifacts
1 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

Instants
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual

Sorceries
4 Burning Wish
4 Duress
3 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
4 Ponder
3 Preordain
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Thoughtseize

Basic Lands
2 Island
1 Swamp

Lands
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
1 Chrome Mox
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
2 Extirpate
2 Slaughter Pact
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Meltdown
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Thoughtseize
1 Virtue's Ruin

Edit: quick summary, also not much to report, matches were relatively straight forward

R1 UB infect w shoal W 2-0
R2 Elves W 1-0(opp had deck reg error)
R3 Affinty L 1-2
R4 Maverick W 2-0
R5 Pox W 2-0
R6 Reanimator L 0-2
R7 Dredge L 0-2
R8 Elves W 2-0

Matches of note
R2 elves opponent did not play a land for the first three turns of the game i leisurely killed him.
R3 opp had canonist main as i was greeted with on turn one after losing the die roll, also I boarded out discard and he had traps(x2) in G3(oops) after I dealt with 2 canonists.
R5 opp did not play chalice on zero in G2, i played petal and proceed to AN and kill him on turn one via petal, Drit, Crit, IT,LED
R6 i will probably come back to this one later, but i got mised out pretty bad but the matchup is miserable as is
R7 i got a game loss when i resolved extirpate because in poor instincts i accidentally combined his grave yard and library when I resolved the second one, regardless I was probably not winning that one anyway, down a game he had approx 15 cards left in his library and was going to destroy my hand the next turn

Overall I played against a bunch of random decks, so I crushed them, I only ever had to deal with hate bears on the day most of the time. I will come back to R6 some other day but it was an interesting matchup also against a friend, that I felt kind of in it, but he ripped some good 'uns.

PiF is absurd, I still need to make some tweaks overall, but liked my general construction of the deck, the sideboard probably needs the most work. I probably made a few misplays on the day that could have been more streamlined, but got there anyway, my losses felt like I wasn't going to win those ones anyway (a very good dredge player, a hateful affinity player and a pretty miserable re animator match up, Iona in G1 (off a careful study, must be nice), and in G2(off a top decked entomb after we had a discard punching session))

Wish I would have had the chance to play against more blue decks, I actually feel really good in those match ups with PiF and discard, and oddly enough feel more comfortable fighting that and their random grave hate, than anti combo hate from the other decks.

On the day I wished for IT at least 3 times, probably more, to get the PiF engine online. Never wished for Virtue's ruin, or Meltdown, used every other card other than those though, and I would not cut ruin, meltdown I could see, but as a friend put it before the tournament, "if you ever need to wish for it and it's not there you will hate yourself" and on that note I cut the third extripate I was going to play for it, still dont know if it was correct or not, since graveyard decks seem a lot more popular than mud or chalice decks, probably a meta call.

Edit 2: I had 3 AN kills, 1 goblins and the rest of the wins were with PiF(6).

MTG Junkie

07-02-2012, 08:18 PM

Tombstalker

07-02-2012, 10:53 PM

I like PiF in the board but I've actually gone from 2 EtW to 1. Does this mean you're are boarding one in and leaving one effectively giving you 8 copies?

Also congrats ThomasDowd! Do you board in both pacts and both CoV against permanent hate?

ThomasDowd

07-03-2012, 10:27 AM

I find myself wondering how many times you wished for Past in Flames.

I never wished for it at Mythic Games and I never wish for it at weekly events.
I ended up cutting it for a 2nd Empty the Warrens.
Not sure if it is the best use for that slot yet, but time will tell.

Junkie:
I wished for it twice on the day. Once to set up the kill the next turn versus an elves player and once while going off after I had infernal'ed for an extra ritual the turn before. Also not being able to get the best card in the deck with half of your tutors seems silly.

I never found myself wanting to board in the empty, but could see it happening vs decks with more of a clock(I'd probably side out the AN) with disruption (RUG, but they are about 50/50 to have).

Tombstalker:
Yeah, most of the permanent hate these days is creature based so the pacts are very good, I also got to play a pact and flash it back via past in flames for 2 free storm count which was pretty satisfying. Typically I board out all my discard versus maverick with the exception of a thoughtseize and board in the 2 pacts, 3 bounce and the chrome mox. Vs. affinity I should have left in more discard, I boarded the same as maverick, but forgot they play mindbreak trap post board. (I would probably board the 2 chains and 2 pacts for duresses, and possibly a preordain for the 4th thoughtseize to the main)

Moving forward I want more extirpates since that may be the only way to win the dredge/reanimator matchup. possibly cutting the chrome mox and/or the meltdown. no one plays chalice/ mud and you may just want to toss that matchup along into the counterbalance pile and almost give it up, and since no one plays either of those decks I'd rather use the spots on cards that matter. going to work on the board the next few weeks and figure out what i need to do with it.

Tombstalker

07-03-2012, 04:11 PM

Cool I'm on a similar plan with 2 pacts 2 chains against maverick and I've really come to appreciate pact. I've also been running 2 IoK in the board but ive been considering going up to 3, all to board in against hate bears. Anyone else that does this? I guess my board is similar to TES although I would like to squeeze some extirpates too. For those of you who run PiF side do you also run IGG or has PiF replaced it?

Lastly regarding sweepers I haven't really been impressed with virtues ruin or infest tbh. Reason is Thalia. I am now thinking pyroclasm or even massacre would be better and just deal with teeg with pact/chain/death mark. Pyroclasm also seems worthwhile against dredge and other corner cases too. Thoughts?
Edit- I own dead of night and I've used it elsewhere but its not a tutor target so not sure how worthwhile it would be.

entreri_fans

07-05-2012, 09:53 AM

For those of you who run PiF side do you also run IGG or has PiF replaced it?

Hi, Tombstalkr!

I am the guy running both IGG and PiF in the SB.

And My bulit is 3 Infernal Tutor/3 Burning Wish split(with 1 Infernal Tutor in my SB). I have IGG in my SB, and IGG is really useful sometimes even if you guys already have PiF both in the MD and SB.

There was one time I won via a ridiculous IGGY-LOOP.

It was against Mavrick,which means I must go off as fast as I can before the hate bears going on the board. My opening hand was: Burning Wish, Burning Wish, LED, LED, Petal, Swamp, another card. I decided to go off turn 1.

My action was swamp for Black mana and then: Petal=> LED => LED=>(Cracking Petal for Red)=>Burning Wish(and then Cracking 2 LEDs for BBBRRR) for IGG=>IGG(with RR as floating mana) to get the 2nd Buring Wish, LED, LED back=>LED=>LED=>Buring Wish(Cracking 2 LEDs for BBBBBB) for Infernal Tutor in my SB=> Infernal Tutor=>Tendrils for Exactly 20.

Yes, if not IGG, I can never go off tun 1. Pif and AdN will not help me in that situation.

So, IGG is a useful storm engine if you happens to draw a lot of LEDs and very few Rituals and excessive Tutors.

Edit: In my opinion, IGG is more useful in SB than in MD if it's a UBr ANT. PiF has the advantage over IGG(in main deck). PiF is less interactive than IGG with you opp, especially if you opp is a blue deck running several Forces. And I will only go via IGGY-LOOP if I am sure(1)my opp is not a blue deck or (2) he has not yet got the counters.

Just personal opinion. hope it will help you.

ThomasDowd

07-06-2012, 11:10 AM

Tombstalker

07-06-2012, 12:06 PM

Ok so ive done some searches and cant find what im looking for so ill just ask, is there a UBg version of ANT that utilizes living wish? Its probably inferior to burning wish but the idea is interesting to me. If anyone could point me in that direction I would be thankful (but not PSI), otherwise I was thinking something like this might work:

Rough outline:
13-16 Lands +
1 dryad arbor

4 LED
4 dark ritual
4 lotus petal
4 cabal ritual
0-2 chrome mox

4 brainstorm
4 ponder
2-3 gitaxian probe

4 autumn's veil
3-4 cabal therapy

4 infernal tutor
3-4 living wish

1 ill-gotten gains
1 tendrils of agony
1-2 ad nauseam

Sideboard considerations with living wish:
shriekmaw
xantid swarm
gilded drake
faerie macabre
scavenging ooze
vampire hexmage
aethersnipe
phyrexian revoker

cabal pit
wasteland
bojuka bog
karakas
glacial chasm
dryad arbor
dark depths
the tabernacle at pendrell vale

plus usual board in options

It seems like there are some very relevant cards right now that living wish could facilitate and all LW targets avoid teeg and thalia which is great. Autumns veil is better than chant in a couple ways (except stopping attacks but lands handle that) while cabal therapy seems really good with probe + arbor (and swarms etc since sometimes you may want to still shred their hand after chanting them).

So is this worth pursuing or not?

egosum

07-06-2012, 12:21 PM

BW was introduced to the ANT lists so they can have some more business because 4x IT + And were not enough, it is used as the replacement of Grim Tutor (not that BW is inferior to it, neither superior, just kinda different animals that may fulfill the same role). Living Wish is inserted into ANT as a protection slot, not business, so I guess it' s not worth trying it that way, because regular protection is more than enough for the current lists (it is not the main flaw of the deck, but the lack of business may be...).

However it can be funny to see a Tombstalker coming from nowhere once opponent's hand is fully ripped.You can make some laughs and steal some random games.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

P.S.Plus the Mage + Depths seems quite greedy to be pulled (both) from the wish, and playing an hybrid (with some mages and depths main seems quite anti-sinergic.

Aekhold

07-09-2012, 07:33 PM

Hey guys, i finally settled on ANT again and played some bigger tournaments with it.
I top8ed all of them, losing in semifinal and final in the first two (which were GPTs for Ghent :( ) and in the last swiss round of our local tournament, which 60 players attended to, only losing to Reanimator a friend of mine piloted because of his good topdecks.
I won G1 and G2 he topdecked Animated Dead on empty hand ->Iona.
G3 is Duress, Entomb, Reanimate ( he told me he topdecked second blacksource, yah -.-)
So record until now is
15-4-1

So, my list (14sb cards)

4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Burning Wish
1 Past in Flames
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Chrome Mox
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Inquisition of Kozilek

SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Virtue's Ruin
SB: 4 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Meltdown
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Inquisition of Kozilek
SB: 1 Grim Tutor
SB: 1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 Duress

I'm very pleased with this setup.
I switched 1 Duress MD and 1 Inqiusition of Kozilek in the SB to have the option to Wish for Duress (better against Force, Sneak Attack and so on).

What are you thinking about this list in perspective of GP Ghent upcoming?
(Especially sideboard!)

I need one more card in the sideboard because i cut the Past in Flames because in never wished for it in all 3 tournaments and in my extensive testing-sessions.

Some questions:
How do you think this deck is positioned in the metagame exspected in Ghent
which I think will be GW, RUG, SneakShow, Reanimator and other usual suspects with UWx Miracle, Goblins, Dredge, UR Delver and maybe HighTide leading the pack?

What do you think about 1 Chrome Mox vs. Rain of Filth vs. 15th land in this list?

Do you think there's any way we can beat Reanimator without stretching the deck to hard? This is by far our worst relevant matchup and I think it's just a coinflip and based on the amount of discard we can fire off.

What do you think of the protection/business/cantrip setup? (Ok, very general question :-P )

My sideboard is pretty much Wishtargets and hate for the GW matchup, because I think no blue deck (besides Reanimator) can really win against this list except maybe for SneakShow and RUG. Do you think this is a correct assumption?

Do you think meltdown is needed at all?
If not, what would be a nice addition?

15th card in sideboard could be In the Eye of Nowhere, Reanimate/Bribery or something, any suggestions?

Have a great day,
Aekhold

Tombstalker

07-09-2012, 09:44 PM

Congrats on your finish I like you're list. I have recently picked up ANT and I'm also on the probe + therapy plan. Probe has proven to be excellent especially with PiF and both therapy and duress screw misdirection which is really relevant with SnS bring so popular. Anyway i would suggest -1 probe -1 therapy for +1 duress (or +2 with thoughtseize in the side). My reason is multiple probes in you're hand start to add up to a'hidden Mulligan' so to speak while duress is just to good to not run 3-4. Also I think mox is better than RoF since rain is the definition of all in and doesn't flash back off PiF or help with a blind AdN.

For your board I actually really like dread of night since maverick can be a beating, in my limited experience with this deck. I also bring in a couple dread, much easier to board in 1cc mini wrath then to try and wish for 3cc wraths. Not sure 4 + virtues ruin is necessary though. I currently board into 2 cov 2 dread 2 pact, which brings up reanimator. Pact and chain would help this match along with extraction effects. Also pact has good synergy with PiF vs Mav.

I assume IoK is mostly for maverick and clasm for gobbos/Mav? I may be wrong but I question the need for IoK in the board since those types of decks are so threat dense they will just topdeck something.

For alternatives I would suggest 2 pithing needles, good against many of the top decks right now, cheap and can be dropped off show and tell and tells you what to name. I would also consider some form of grave hate since reanimator and dredge both seem faster than us IME. Also some form of bounce as you stated and maybe replace a dread for a pact. Lastly here's a thought, flusterstorm could be a blowout against decks like reanimator and SnS plus it builds a compound storm, seems better than Bobs although this is only theory.

Tombstalker

07-18-2012, 06:01 PM

So ive been inspired by Antonius and his snapcaster build found here http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23605-I-m-Bad-at-Storm.-And-it-s-funny.-(SCG-Phoenix-20th-Place)

Ive been playing and testing every build and every splash I can get my hands on including TES and I think ive found one that I like but I would like your input since im trying to get the balls up to play ANT in a tournament next month. Anyway heres the maindeck:

Lands 14
4 polluted delta
2 scalding tarn
2 bloodstained mire
3 underground sea
1 badlands
1 island
1 swamp

Creatures 2
2 snapcaster mage

Artifacts 9
4 LED
4 lotus petal
1 chrome mox

Instants 15
4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual
4 brainstorm
2 entomb
1 ad nauseam

Sorceries 21
4 ponder
3 gitaxian probe
3 cabal therapy
3 duress
2 inquisition of kozilek
4 infernal tutor
1 past in flames
1 tendrils of agony

Its currently 61 cards because im still deciding what to cut, likely 1 probe. Snapcaster takes some getting used to but it seriously often functions as a one-sided IGG and brings pretty insane value to the deck- thanks Antonius for posting your list and report btw.
The other odd inclusion is entomb. I like BW, alot, but it seems like a big portion of my SB gets dedicated to answering permanents, which is something Ive found I would rather just board for rather then try to wish for due to mana investment, at which point is a wishboard worth just a handful of wish targets? IDK. Anyway I really just want to try something that could function like infernal tutor that isnt grim/BW, and entomb is what I am considering. Heres my thoughts on entomb:

Pros:
-costs B so is on color and doesnt hurt much when flipped off ad naus
-turns into daemonic tutor with SCM/PiF
-can 'wish' for a free therapy or anti-hate like pact when paired with SCM/PiF
-builds threshold slightly faster than a cantrip
-higher potential threat density without splashing for more than a single PiF
-allows me to play the full set of IT's in the main (a relative Pro I suppose)
-is another shuffle effect
-more?

Cons:
-slightly increased vulnerability to grate hate (not sure yet how much this matters)
-needs one of the 7 SCM/PiF/IT in hand or in the yard to be worthwhile.
-more?

My one main lament would be loss of access to empty the warrens G1 which is awesome when its needed, so there is that to consider I suppose.

Finally, Im not sure but I think 2 entomb is the right number, otherwise I may drop 1 for a 3rd probe but at that point is it worth the inclusion at all? IDK. So what say you source goers?

Rekk

07-19-2012, 10:01 PM

So what are you guys doing agains rug

entreri_fans

07-19-2012, 11:27 PM

RUG, really hard match up.

-If you are UBr ANT,then you just duress/thoughtseize to see if the path is clear.

Some times if you prefer Gitaxian Probe rather than Preordain, you can run Cabal Therapy to hit. Some successful list runs G Probe/Therapy split and does well.
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-If you are UBw ANT(with Grim Tutor as extra tutor),then you just chant/silence them to death before you go for Ad Nauseam/Iggy-Loop.

I myself prefer chant/silence than discard.Because they have some conditional counters(Spell Snare,Stifle).Both of them can not counter Chant/Silence, but Spell Snare will hit Infernal Tutor(if you are casting Grim Tutor.....Ok, ignore it...) and they can stifle the Storm Trigger if you are not careful enough.

So just chant/silence them to shut off all their counters.

Not to mention Chant/Silence can protect the Iggy-Loop.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
However, it seems UBr ANT is more common than UBw ANT. The most important reason is that UBr ANT runs Burning Wish which is a business and an answer at the same time(Wish->Infest/Virtue's Ruin/) to clean the board that Maverick Provided(Mom,Teeg,Thalia,Aven....)

Ok,just personal ideas.

apistat_commander

07-20-2012, 10:14 AM

ThomasDowd

07-20-2012, 10:06 PM

I split the finals of a small local tournament last night playing a UBr list. My list was close to Thomasdowd's but I ran a 2/2 split of Probe and Preordain in addition to the 3 Thoughtseize. Some thoughts:

- I don't like the single Infernal in the sideboard with 4 Wish main. Infernal is the best tutor in the deck and drawing multiple Wish is just the worst.

- I like Probe a lot but Therapy is pretty terrible. I don't know how many Probes I can run in addition to Thoughtseize, but 2 seems okay. It didn't seem to matter that much when resolving Ad Nauseam.

- I feel like my sideboard is overloaded with hate for Maverick, but runs comparatively little to disrupt blue tempo or control decks. Is there anything worth bringing in besides an additional discard spell or two? I tried Pyroblast for a while, but that doesn't work so well with LED. I know the plan in the past was to board in additional Tendrils in order to naturally Tendrils people out. Is this a viable plan against RUG? Does boarding in 2-3 Empty the Warrens help that MU?

-The reason I had the 4th was to keep the BW line open but both have their merits.
-Therapy is pretty terrible I don't know why people don't get this yet
-Against RUG I'd say just play smart. With PiF the clock isn't as relevant and if they have only goyf or mongoose you have all the time in the world to set up and wreck their hand. the extra tendrils was always very good when landstill was a deck but if thye are on stifle, you look pretty foolish if thats the plan. Maverick is actually pretty bad if they get their bears since T1 mom into t2 thalia or hierarch into mom+thalia is pretty significant and kills you almost as fast as the delver decks do while slowing you down and they have more threats on the way. empty is just as bad as the extra tendrils (versus stifle) other than the fact that you can short storm them for a bunch of dudes so I guess thats ok.

I haven't played much recently, been busy with work and just other stuff, but my sideboard was slightly shifted more towards reanimator for a tick after SCG(although I didn't play at all after) but now that people don't play that deck I'd probably change some things. I have realized the extra chrome mox in the board is pretty bad (I may want it again someday) and I still like the one in the main but the board space may be a bit more important for cards that do things.

I can see the argument for probe, but still hate it since the only thing it gains you is information for two life at card parity, I'd rather be able to interact at one mana and strip something or manipulate the cards I'm drawing. IMO: you maintain card parity with the other two alternatives( preordain/ TS) but gain selection for the price of one mana, which I think is worth it.

Also I really like the RUG matchup, they are nice and challenging

edit: also 8 discard versus control decks is pretty solid i typically also board in a singleton extirpate since if you can snag a force with the first discard spell and then extirpate it, the game is pretty easy to win. You can power through the soft stuff no problem. also it acts as a quasi discard spell once you know their hand, it's still pretty loose though, i will admit that.

Tammit67

07-21-2012, 07:51 PM

Cabal therapy is a very good card in the deck that allows you to beat maindeck hate bears easier while still allowing you to hit force and/or stay in 3 colors. I would argue you do not like it because your hit rate with it is low.

If you are naming correctly, and your hit rate is low, then you just win and you'd have little problem with the card.

There just isn't a better spell for the effect as of now. You surely want to hit creatures and force of will, and losing life or losing burning wish for chant effects isn't great.

dragonwisdom

07-21-2012, 08:08 PM

I though ANT was really just black and blue

These new lists really look like TES without silent/chant

Someone enlighten me.

thefringthing

07-21-2012, 10:21 PM

Past in Flames is really good in ANT. Burning Wish is also nice.

It looks like these days the TES/ANT distinction comes down mostly to Chrome Mox vs sensible number of lands.

dragonwisdom

07-22-2012, 12:50 AM

I suppose TES/ANT are like rock/junk. They are really the same decks.

But in a traditional sense, ANT is supposed to be Black/Blue and TES multi-colored.
By having discussion of these decks in the ANT thread, the line become even more blurred.

Also in a traditional sense, rock is supposed to Black and Green, while junk is Black, Green and White. Though both decks are in each other's threads.

Tombstalker

07-22-2012, 12:54 PM

Cabal therapy is a very good card in the deck that allows you to beat maindeck hate bears easier while still allowing you to hit force and/or stay in 3 colors.I would like to second this. There are definitely reasons to choose therapy over thoughtseize, depending on local metagame. The lifeloss of TS is not irrelevant but even that aside the main factors for me personally are the presence of both maverick and sneak and show in my meta. As previously stated therapy hits both hatebears and FoW, but just as important to me is that therapy cannot be effectively redirected like TS can be. If these arent reasons enough to try the card, therapy also has insane synergy with probes and snapcasters for sick value and acts more like a on-color chant then TS ever could by ripping duplicate spells that ordinary discard effects miss.
True it will never be quite as consistant as TS but in return therapy is potentially more powerful and so far in variations like mine (8 discard/ 3 probe/ 2 SCM) the card has been nuts.

Regarding my list a few posts above the entomb idea fell flat, back on BW...for now.

apistat_commander

07-22-2012, 01:05 PM

I can see the argument for probe, but still hate it since the only thing it gains you is information for two life at card parity, I'd rather be able to interact at one mana and strip something or manipulate the cards I'm drawing. IMO: you maintain card parity with the other two alternatives( preordain/ TS) but gain selection for the price of one mana, which I think is worth it.

I think the information from Probe is often worth sacrificing the card selection of Preordain. With 11 cantrips in the deck I often felt like I just drew too many. Probe is plus one storm off Ad Naus or PiF (even if it sometimes takes you off Hellbent for Infernal). I think they are both worthwhile cards hence the 2/2 split. I also abhor 1-of's unless I have a way to reliably tutor for them (hence me not running a Chrome Mox).

also 8 discard versus control decks is pretty solid i typically also board in a singleton extirpate since if you can snag a force with the first discard spell and then extirpate it, the game is pretty easy to win. You can power through the soft stuff no problem. also it acts as a quasi discard spell once you know their hand, it's still pretty loose though, i will admit that.

Yeah, I typically don't have enough space to board in something like Extirpate against control, I would rather just have additional cantrips. I may include an additional Tendrils in my board, but we will see.

There just isn't a better spell for the effect as of now. You surely want to hit creatures and force of will, and losing life or losing burning wish for chant effects isn't great.

Thoughtseize is a superior card in many cases. Opening a hand with no Probe but a Cabal Therapy against an unknown opponent is the worst. Seize ensures that you always hit something, even if it isn't relevant. The other problem with Therapy is that if you haven't seen your opponent's hand in a few turns you can't necessarily Therapy and hit what you need to go off this/next turn. Given that I go off with PiF 70% of the time, the lifeloss from Seize is less relevant even if it slightly speeds up my opponent's clock.

ThomasDowd

07-22-2012, 02:49 PM

I think the information from Probe is often worth sacrificing the card selection of Preordain. With 11 cantrips in the deck I often felt like I just drew too many. Probe is plus one storm off Ad Naus or PiF (even if it sometimes takes you off Hellbent for Infernal). I think they are both worthwhile cards hence the 2/2 split. I also abhor 1-of's unless I have a way to reliably tutor for them (hence me not running a Chrome Mox).

Fair on the probes, Think of the chrome mox as notn a 1 of but as the 16th land and/ or the 5th initial artifact mana source off an ad naus, at least thats how i think of it.

Yeah, I typically don't have enough space to board in something like Extirpate against control, I would rather just have additional cantrips. I may include an additional Tendrils in my board, but we will see.

I typically cut a cantrip since the game may go kind of long and im not trying to velocity them out in the first few turns, just dismantle them

Thoughtseize is a superior card in many cases. Opening a hand with no Probe but a Cabal Therapy against an unknown opponent is the worst. Seize ensures that you always hit something, even if it isn't relevant. The other problem with Therapy is that if you haven't seen your opponent's hand in a few turns you can't necessarily Therapy and hit what you need to go off this/next turn. Given that I go off with PiF 70% of the time, the lifeloss from Seize is less relevant even if it slightly speeds up my opponent's clock.

This is how I do things as well, thank you for putting this a little more eloquently. Always hitting is way more important in my opinion, also I hate guessing "oh man missed on thalia, guess he had the hierarch >GSZ for teeg" is probably one of the worst feelings.

Also agree on PiF, my percentage with that engine may be higher but i just find those lines the fastest/ most compact.

also misdirection with a thoughtseize is not that big of a deal, as the owner of the spell you still choose the card, I mean it sucks, but they also are discarding misdirection and a blue card, so, you are kind of winning, since you are probably using past in flames to get that back later. (bonus: THRESHHOLD!)

Past in flames is the best card in the deck.

EDIT: also v. control, PiF gives you sooooo much game, you can just jam shit and if they counter you can always re go off with Yawg will. card is so awesome.

Chikenbok

07-22-2012, 02:57 PM

UBr in top 8 at Gent.

Edit: He won.

the resurrection

07-22-2012, 03:04 PM

Well done
1st place GP ghent
Timo Schuenemann (HokosSchokus?)

1 Badlands
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
3 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
2 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Past in Flames
4 Ponder
1 Tendrils of Agony

4 Dread of Night
1 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
3 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Grim Tutor
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Pyroclasm
1 Tendrils of Agony

Gui

07-22-2012, 03:24 PM

Well done
1st place GP ghent
Timo Schuenemann (HokosSchokus?)

He's not Hockus, but Timo is a well known Dredge player as well. Don't think he's @ TS tho

HokusSchmokus

07-22-2012, 04:24 PM

HokosSchokus

Don't do that again please.

No, I'm not Timo, but that's the guy who designed the Quadlaser Dredge list(see OP of Dredge thread for those interested) . He's quite good.

Tombstalker

07-22-2012, 04:52 PM

No, I'm not Timo, but that's the guy who designed the Quadlaser Dredge list(see OP of Dredge thread for those interested) . He's quite good.
This might explain the full set of therapies in the deck. I would be interested in his thoughts on IoK main and the possible inclusion of a snapcaster or two.

At this thread- props to the decks designer(s) and all influential storm pilots here at the source, playing legacy with demonic tutors black lotus and yawgmoth's will has ruined me for any other deck. Love it.

GexxX

07-22-2012, 06:08 PM

This might explain the full set of therapies in the deck. I would be interested in his thoughts on IoK main and the possible inclusion of a snapcaster or two.

At this thread- props to the decks designer(s) and all influential storm pilots here at the source, playing legacy with demonic tutors black lotus and yawgmoth's will has ruined me for any other deck. Love it.

He said - I think in the GP Coverage - the reason for therapies was his experience. Man I've been waiting for so long to see Storm on top of it all. Just awesome. I've changed my Deck of choice to Reanimator recently, but much love for Storm! I think it's even more funny that a guy who usually plays Dredge (considered as hostile as Storm) won with another unfair Deck. Isn't that just a story for itself?

CONGRATS! Awesome job! I've been screaming with joy and my girlfriend thought I got shot when I saw the 2:1 against elves (even another comboish Deck) in the finals.

Combo is the way to go guys! :>

Gocho

07-23-2012, 11:23 AM

Don't do that again please.

No, I'm not Timo, but that's the guy who designed the Quadlaser Dredge list(see OP of Dredge thread for those interested) . He's quite good.

I would love to read a report from him.

If he write someone, please post it here.
I could use google translate to read german :laugh:

Sloshthedark

07-23-2012, 11:48 AM

Tammit67

07-23-2012, 12:34 PM

That's one hell of a sideboard.

Tombstalker

07-23-2012, 02:49 PM

That's one hell of a sideboard.
Ya it is, and as a new storm player im quite pleased because my current list is only 8 off of his 75, most being cage/IoK/grim.

'Nilla Pac

07-23-2012, 06:19 PM

I'd also like a report (and SB choices explanation)... just watching few last rounds, I can tell he was really lucky as he played aggressively, maybe recklessly

I don't mean to decline his skills, I'm all happy he put storm on the top

This isn't a deck for the timid. There is a time for exercising patience and setting things up properly, but there's many times where your chances get worse the longer you wait and you just have to go for it.

Dread of Night in the sideboard is awesome. Suck it, Thalia.

JamieW89

07-23-2012, 07:36 PM

I did pretty terrible at the GP with a fairly similar list (3-1,2-1 trials. 5-3 GP, 6-3 side event). My Ad Nauseams were the worst ever but that might be explained by having 15 lands, 0 moxen. PiF was awkward at times as well. Made some mistakes from fatigue though, should have definately day-2'd in the GP and 7-2'd the SE.

Very nice to see ANT on top though. Now I just hope people don't start boarding loads again.

Tombstalker

07-23-2012, 11:38 PM

What is the sideboard plan and hate of choice against MUD? Man that deck is mean without countermagic protection. The non welder variety with cotv and 3 sphere main. I'm thinking hurkyls and shattering spree but maybe there's a better idea?

'Nilla Pac

07-24-2012, 01:38 AM

I recall a player here running Pulverize in the sideboard around a couple years ago. Not sure if it was ever cast, but seems effective.

Sloshthedark

07-24-2012, 03:51 AM

This isn't a deck for the timid. There is a time for exercising patience and setting things up properly, but there's many times where your chances get worse the longer you wait and you just have to go for it.

Dread of Night in the sideboard is awesome. Suck it, Thalia.

well i know... but Ad Nauseam 0 floating against deck that can't ever kill you (Polzl G1) into making it possible, making Goblins against Lands? (how could ever a Lands player side out Tabernacle in first place...) and he was quite lucky in the finals G1 topdeck ftw even through epic misplay (probe before infernal->ToA after Pif hellbent no U floating), G3 2x Burning wish crappy keep, topdeck brainstorm into ritual+nausea... guess he was on a I can't lose whatever lucky streak, good for him, anyway he was a nice guy

that's what I'm most interested in it wasn't good in my testing, grafdiggers cage - seriously? why? byes? matchups?

you don't need a MUD plan in vacuum, its to minor deck to care about and the match-up is Maverick-like dieroll, only your discard is better, I killed a guy keeping 2x CoV, Golem and drawing Trinisphere with discard and through on-board Golem btw. experiencing a kill through Thalia for the first time this week too =)

Dia_Bot

07-24-2012, 04:02 AM

Grafdigger's cage makes sense since reanimator and dredge can be though matchups. Both extirpate and F. macabre are better against reanimator but do very little against dredge so it's understandable.

Jonathan Alexander

07-24-2012, 05:48 AM

well i know... but Ad Nauseam 0 floating against deck that can't ever kill you (Polzl G1) into making it possible, making Goblins against Lands? (how could ever a Lands player side out Tabernacle in first place...) and he was quite lucky in the finals G1 topdeck ftw even through epic misplay (probe before infernal->ToA after Pif hellbent no U floating), G3 2x Burning wish crappy keep, topdeck brainstorm into ritual+nausea... guess he was on a I can't lose whatever lucky streak, good for him, anyway he was a nice guy

that's what I'm most interested in it wasn't good in my testing, grafdiggers cage - seriously? why? byes? matchups?

you don't need a MUD plan in vacuum, its to minor deck to care about and the match-up is Maverick-like dieroll, only your discard is better, I killed a guy keeping 2x CoV, Golem and drawing Trinisphere with discard and through on-board Golem btw. experiencing a kill through Thalia for the first time this week too =)

He made Goblins against Lands because he boarded out Past in Flames which he forgot. Either way, he could've won through Cabal Ritual after the first hit - the lands player was on four and had a Factory in play, he had Cabal Ritual to save five Goblins.
For some reason I didn't see the quarterfinals match, so no idea what was going on there, but Polzl had a lot of discard, so going off asap makes sense I guess.
Casting Probe before Infernal Tutor was no thing, he had mana to cast every single spell, even Ad Nauseam. Plus he had his landdrop open.
Grafdigger's Cage was there against Dredge and Reanimator, both of which can be really tough.

Sloshthedark

07-24-2012, 07:03 AM

He made Goblins against Lands because he boarded out Past in Flames which he forgot. Either way, he could've won through Cabal Ritual after the first hit - the lands player was on four and had a Factory in play, he had Cabal Ritual to save five Goblins.
For some reason I didn't see the quarterfinals match, so no idea what was going on there, but Polzl had a lot of discard, so going off asap makes sense I guess.
Casting Probe before Infernal Tutor was no thing, he had mana to cast every single spell, even Ad Nauseam. Plus he had his landdrop open.
Grafdigger's Cage was there against Dredge and Reanimator, both of which can be really tough.

ok, that match I knew only from coverage where situation described looks a bit silly...

you know discard doesn't matter when Polzl doesn't have graveyard interaction and by mana sources spent for Ad Nauseam (petal DR, DR/land/petal or something like that) it was harsh imho... G2 was much more interesting as Polzl extracted DR and was stuck on 1 land+top and kept blind flipping top to play Hymn to Tourach if he hit a land...

It was, he had ton of mana but not U, it was insane at first sight, then realizing he didn't play a land makes it just a slim chance of the few cantrips left, I can understand the excitement but definitely not a wise thing to do... in GP final...

I know, how is it better than extirpate? :really: Ok, totally screws dredge but is mediocre vs. Reanimator, shuts down PiF and has no other use... also lack of bounce is interesting... I mean it worked for him so fine, just weird choices from my point of view; eagerly awaiting a report

Phelix

07-24-2012, 08:20 AM

Hi

Im the lands player who happily lost to timo.

G2 when he made goblins:

The combo player should NEVER make goblins vs lands. Its just wrong, since lands survives them so easily. (tabernacle, EE2x, Bridge 2x, glacial chasm).

Knowing this, I took out both tabernacle and chasm. Otherwise the intuition I responded with would find: Loam, Tabernacle, chasm. => no death ty,sir.

That being said, with the Lands.dec version I played, i barely win 10 percen of the games, and was totally fine losing to Timo, who btw was a good sport. Only bad thing was losing my first game in the tournament in my first featurematch :)

Tombstalker

07-24-2012, 09:13 AM

you don't need a MUD plan in vacuum, its to minor deck to care about and the match-up is Maverick-like dieroll, only your discard is better, I killed a guy keeping 2x CoV, Golem and drawing Trinisphere with discard and through on-board Golem btw. experiencing a kill through Thalia for the first time this week too =)
In the grand scheme of things yes but locally one of my most common opponents runs MUD and its pretty brutal without the countermagic im accustomed to. Anyway nice job on the win through all that hate. Thalia kill is difficult too, in addition to everyone else who plays mav my wife also plays that deck so I have to face those bitches daily which is why I just started packing dread of night. Im convinced maverick is a female.

I recall a player here running Pulverize in the sideboard around a couple years ago. Not sure if it was ever cast, but seems effective.
Never even heard of that card until now, seems iffy at best though since I only run 2 mountains total.

Dia_Bot

07-24-2012, 09:31 AM

You should run at least 3 mountains to make Pulverize work. The reason is that you want to burning wish for it and still be able to cast it if they wasteland your mountain used to cast BW.

Brot_Ohne_Kruste

07-24-2012, 10:59 AM

Hi there,

here is a quick response of my friend Timo Schünemann, who won GP Ghent. I'll just quote him because he hasn't an account on the source yet:

"Greetings the source!

First of all: There will be a tournament report in english, I just have to find out which site wants it the most (might as well keep getting money for the win ).

What you need to know about me: This was my third GP and the first I day twoed. I played the deck in only one tournament before the weekend and that was with a very different sideboard. I playtested a bit and I'm usually the one who is forced to play storm if someone wants to test against it. That said, tournaments are very different from just fooling around on cockatrice. More on this and the two trials I played (one of which I won) in the report. The report will also contain more info on the sideboard and the other rounds. I will let you know when and where the report will be published.

Now to adress my mistakes.

First the Goblins against lands, which was probably my biggest screw-up of the tournament.
Here is what I thought: I can infernal for PIF and I might need more blue mana, so I crack my LEDs for red and blue respectively.

Here is what went wrong: PIF was in the board, because I board in the Iggy in matchups without countermagic. In addition to that screw-up it would have been incorrect to crack the LEDs for red and blue, even if I had been able to search for PIF, simply because I didn't need to cast any blue spells from the grave for more storm. Bottomline: Total screw-up.

Now the agressive Ad Nauseams in the quarterfinals: I think I made the right play by going for Ad Nauseam so early. Here is why: There is no downside to doing it. If it works, I just kill him on the spot. If it doesn't, I stop at 4 life and just pass the turn with an unbeatable hand against an empty board.

The totally unneccesary probe post PIF in the Finals: I should have tutored first (and did so the whole weekend), I just didn't think about it because I was so excited. That said: I had a bazillion mana in pool and a lotus petal in play, so there was basically no risk involved. Still: Tutoring first is strictly better."

jrw1985

07-24-2012, 05:18 PM

You've got to be kidding me.

Someone'll give him $50 for it. Why not?

Rekk

07-27-2012, 12:24 AM

Here is my current list:
4 ponder
4 bs
4 dr
4 cabal rit
4 duress
2 thoughtseize
2 preordain
3 gitaxian probe
4 lotus petals
1 pif
1 ad naus
1 tendrils
3 burning wish
4 infernal tutor
4 leds
2 islands
2 u-sea
1 volc
1 swamp
3 scalding
4 polluted delta
1 badlands
1 bloodstained mire
sideboard
2 deathmarks
2 virtues ruins
3 extirpate
1 echoing truth
1 wipe away (was previously a second e truth but counterballance is coming back and its tough)
1 infest
1 pif
1 empty
1 tendrils
2 chain of vapor

i'm thinking about adding into the board
4 dread of nights
3 cages
1 iggy pop

dredge and reanimator are both very tough. as you can see these are ideas from gp ghent. right now i like the turn into board control by taking out all the discard and probes against g/w and killing their hate bears. the dread of nights are 1 cc which is nice.

the cages seem better against reanimator to me but i'm not sure.

Sloshthedark

07-27-2012, 08:07 AM

Daze>>cage, cage>>pif and a decent Reanimator player should expect Extirpate and put some S&T in

pridemage>> dread of night Cannonist>>dread of night

and both thing cannot be flashbacked and have limited use... when you expect cannonist would you board Dread of Night in?

I won't even try to incorporate this tech unless Ghent winner states it performed extremely well in the GP

on the other side Iggy got some love from me after the tournament, it's not so bad as it seems

btw. don't play Pif SB and try 2 maindeck (...yeah it's more than good)

======

any serious tech against CB Miracles aside pithing needle? the match-up is more than annoying as some paranoids have Flusterstorm/Meddeling mages SB

aaronm678

07-27-2012, 12:05 PM

any serious tech against CB Miracles aside pithing needle? the match-up is more than annoying as some paranoids have Flusterstorm/Meddeling mages SB

I've been running 2 Wipe Aways in my SB, they're quite good against a lot of things (Reanimator/S&T players will pass priority before drawing w/ Griselbrand, it's fine against Maverick, etc)...and it gives you outs to a resolve counterbalance. It's still an abysmal matchup, I think the best plan is to go balls-to-the walls aggressive against them and try to kill them before they land CB (even Pithing needle is pretty bad...they will just save their Brainstorms and keep a soft lock...which is good enough).

I've been boarding down to 14 land (I'm currently on 16 main), up to 3 Chrome Mox (from 0 main), and a 2nd Ad Nauseam, and then the two Wipe Aways...and it's still horrible, I think if you expect U/W miracles to be popular, you just have to play a different deck (unless they're on the plan w/o Counterbalances...then it's a fairly good matchup, you just play like they're any other slow control deck)

Tammit67

07-27-2012, 03:32 PM

I also really like 2 wipeaway right now, for that reason.

Cages do shut off PiF, seems like a liability. Dread of night does blank thalia/mother though, and finding a second might not be so unreasonable. Will have to test

Tombstalker

07-27-2012, 03:53 PM

JamieW89

07-27-2012, 06:59 PM

Dread of night is the real deal. Thing is it answers thalia/mindcensor/mom which all directly and greatly inhibit us while teeg/canonist only prevent the kill. Its true qpm >> dread but pridemage is also a heavy mana investment just to recover from a wrath for B. I love dread in conjunction with bounce and a single wish removal. Finding a 2nd dread is pretty easy and its even worthwhile sometimes to tutor a second depending on the board state because 2 dread is usually game.

I'm still not a fan of cutting Chain of Vapor completely for a more narrow answer. During 3 days at the GP I played Maverick in one round (and that wasn't even really maverick, it splashed black) out of the 25 I played. In Doomsday, when you can include a singleton bounce in the pile, I would advocate a dedicated answer to the most popular and challenging aggro deck. In ANT I'd like some multifunctionality.

That said, if you know you'll be facing loads of Maverick then you should play some DoN.

Tombstalker

07-27-2012, 11:26 PM

JamieW89 would you mind posting a report for us? Also I haven't cut bounce for dread just swapped CoV for echoing truth due to chalice. My current board for reference:
4 dread of night
3 surgical extraction
2 echoing truth
1 rebuild
1 tendrils
1 ill-gotten gains
1 empty the Warrens
1 meltdown
1 pyroclasm

This isn't built for GP's though, just what I encounter.

JamieW89

07-28-2012, 04:06 PM

JamieW89 would you mind posting a report for us?

Won't be too interesting since I failed (3-1, 2-1 trials, 5-3 GP, 6-3 €1500 as mentioned).
My losses in the GP were against burn (AdN fail + a 4 outer topdeck), merfolk (I resolved more mulligans than spells in both losses) and Bant (I failed to count due to fatigue + topdeck thalia).
I played 0 moxen and Ad Nauseam was terrible the entire weekend. It was so bad that I just took TES to a local tourney today (and 5-0-2'd into a t4 split).

Considering your sideboard; It seems solid overall. I'd advise a number of Extirpate over extractions since they hit reanimate harder. I prefer Chain of Vapor over E.Truths myself as they build storm better and bounce cheaper. But if you really meet a lot of chalice then ET is obviously good. Hurkyl's Recall could be considered over Rebuild too.
My plan against RUG (both with ANT and TES) was to board into 3 Empty the Warrens postboard and it's been decent so far.

Tombstalker

07-30-2012, 12:19 PM

Ive seen plenty of lists with extirpate/SE but not much talk of defense grid. With all the blue decks running around and the tricks of reanimator including instant speed reanimation spells and exhume-> entomb somewhat invalidating extraction effects ive been considering grid in place of extractions. Seems great against countermagic which also makes it great against griselbrand shenanigans not to mention RUG delver where xantid swarm isnt. In fact its even good against chants. So, is there a reason grid isnt ran more often? Obviously extractions still have their place but they are those slots better occupied by grid or perhaps something else?

Tombstalker

08-02-2012, 03:00 PM

All the discussion of EtW main in the TES thread has inspired me to try it out in ANT. So far ive been impressed with the results, with a few hangups.

I like how EtW brings intense pressure while ad naus still acts as an emergency button for winning immediately. However I have noted times that tendrils main would have won against decks with griselbrand, batterskull, elesh norn, wurmcoil engine, terminus etc, where I couldnt quite win with wish-> tendrils. That being said EtW usually cleans house with almost no chance to recover, especially if a therapy is ditched to hellbent prior to casting EtW.

Anyway Ive been bouncing back and forth between UBr ANT and TES frequently over the last month or two learning each decks nuances trying to find my preference. With the new change in maindeck wincon for TES im trying to come to grips with this and how the different acceleration suites (RoF/mox vs CR/less mox) affect the EtW plan. In doing so I find myself questioning the benefit of RoF over cabal ritual, especially with probe + fetches feeding cabal ritual much more quickly and CR making t1 warrens just as easy, often easier from what I can tell. In testing CR becomes active after t1 frequently and is on color.

So has anyone else tried this out yet because its seems this plan could be even better in ANT since EtW jives great with probe therapy (better than SCM which ive now ditched) and ANT has a more solid manabase + better cantrips which matters to me.

Heres what im running right now:

8 fetch
2 underground sea
1 volcanic island
1 badlands (feels like a 2nd volc might be better)
1 island
1 swamp

4 LED
4 lotus petal
1 chrome mox

4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual
4 brainstorm
1 ad nauseam

4 ponder
4 gitaxian probe
3 duress
3 cabal therapy
1 thoughtseize (may revert to 4th duress)
4 infernal tutor
3 burning wish
1 past in flames
1 empty the warrens

Sideboard
4 dread of night
2 defense grid (havent played with these yet)
2 echoing truth
1 hurkyl’s recall
1 silent departure
1 ill-gotten gains (please remind me why I still run this?)
1 tendrils of agony
1 empty the warrens
1 pyroclasm
1 meltdown (might change to pulverize?)

The SB really just reflects what I face most commonly that gives me problems; RUG, maverick, sneak and show, MUD, dredge-> iona, reanimator.
Im no expert with storm yet but ive tried most of the common SB 'engines' and many just seem like extra or alternative ways to showboat a win and/or fill very cornercase applications instead of hating on something common, so this is what im using for now.

aaronm678

08-02-2012, 11:49 PM

All the discussion of EtW main in the TES thread has inspired me to try it out in ANT. So far ive been impressed with the results, with a few hangups.

I like how EtW brings intense pressure while ad naus still acts as an emergency button for winning immediately. However I have noted times that tendrils main would have won against decks with griselbrand, batterskull, elesh norn, wurmcoil engine, terminus etc, where I couldnt quite win with wish-> tendrils. That being said EtW usually cleans house with almost no chance to recover, especially if a therapy is ditched to hellbent prior to casting EtW.

Anyway Ive been bouncing back and forth between UBr ANT and TES frequently over the last month or two learning each decks nuances trying to find my preference. With the new change in maindeck wincon for TES im trying to come to grips with this and how the different acceleration suites (RoF/mox vs CR/less mox) affect the EtW plan. In doing so I find myself questioning the benefit of RoF over cabal ritual, especially with probe + fetches feeding cabal ritual much more quickly and CR making t1 warrens just as easy, often easier from what I can tell. In testing CR becomes active after t1 frequently and is on color.

So has anyone else tried this out yet because its seems this plan could be even better in ANT since EtW jives great with probe therapy (better than SCM which ive now ditched) and ANT has a more solid manabase + better cantrips which matters

Do you have trouble casting your spells? This is a pretty aggressively 3 color list that is rarely hitting its 3rd land drop, and chrome mox is almost never going to be red. It seems to me, if you want to run this much red, just go with the 5 color mana base with rite of flame, as you're really not going to be able to fetch basics.

I don't even like burning wish, as its a pain in the ass to cast it against wasteland. Just for reference...I have the exact same mana base as you, + a u sea and a fetch, and I run 1 maindeck red card...if nothing else, cut the chrome mox for a volcanic or something.

j_rb

08-04-2012, 11:13 AM

...if nothing else, cut the chrome mox for a volcanic or something.

I agree with this, In a list supporting MD empty you probably want 15-16 land. Other than that it looks solid.

I also believe dread of night is a solid inclusion and have always loved it since thalia's release, but would probably cut 1 for a thoughtseize. That way it can come in against decks with clique, thalia, teeg.

Also whatever you do, don't use pulverize in the board. It's so bad that I would rather have shattering spree even though the deck has no rites. I believe meltdown is the right call for Ant as you don't have enough red for shattering spree and also run Hrecall board. That plus meltdown give enough artifact hate that pulverize is probably unnecessary.

Tombstalker

08-04-2012, 03:57 PM

Do you have trouble casting your spells? This is a pretty aggressively 3 color list that is rarely hitting its 3rd land drop, and chrome mox is almost never going to be red. It seems to me, if you want to run this much red, just go with the 5 color mana base with rite of flame, as you're really not going to be able to fetch basics.

I don't even like burning wish, as its a pain in the ass to cast it against wasteland. Just for reference...I have the exact same mana base as you, + a u sea and a fetch, and I run 1 maindeck red card...if nothing else, cut the chrome mox for a volcanic or something.
Just erased a lengthy reply, oh well. In short ya some hands do play out slower if fetching basics but probe/discard will often tell me if thats necessary. Without chants/swarms I believe the fetchland manabase is superior to gold lands due to shuffle effects and lower lifeloss/no expiration like the golds.

Ive changed my mindset on wish lately and now I like it better. I look at wish as a "dead end play", which is to say I dont expect to loop back to the main, for one, thus the lack of alternate engines in the board. I usually use it to EtW although obviously it is necessary for tendrils. This is also why I only run 3.

I also believe dread of night is a solid inclusion and have always loved it since thalia's release, but would probably cut 1 for a thoughtseize. That way it can come in against decks with clique, thalia, teeg.

Also whatever you do, don't use pulverize in the board. It's so bad that I would rather have shattering spree even though the deck has no rites. I believe meltdown is the right call for Ant as you don't have enough red for shattering spree and also run Hrecall board. That plus meltdown give enough artifact hate that pulverize is probably unnecessary.
Dread is the best SB playset ive come across for maverick, its amazing. Ive actually dropped the defense grids though since they didnt work out as predicted so I now have a discard in its place. Good to know about pulverize, I dont own the card so it was just theory on my part but so far meltdown (+ hurkyls/e.truth) usually does what I need.

My main points of contention with the deck right now are 1. right of flame vs. cabal ritual and 2. manabase.

The main differences, besides color, is that CR supports bigger spell chains easier but is often almost a turn slower. It also doesnt fight through countermagic as well unless I have 3+ lands in play. RoF otoh is faster but supports less mana intensive lines of play. Prior to probe and EtW main plan I would say CR was my preference since a singleton can power out tutors/ad naus by itself, but now im considering RoF since the deck can reliably drop 10+ goblins t1-2 then just short storm for lethal if necessary. This takes alot of pressure off generating 10+ spell chains and even makes alternate engines somewhat obsolete.

I wish someone would just construct a 3 color TES/ANT list with a stable manabase. Im testing 1 island now but at that point not really sure its even worth the bother.

GoblinSettler

08-04-2012, 09:36 PM

I wish someone would just construct a 3 color TES/ANT list with a stable manabase. Im testing 1 island now but at that point not really sure its even worth the bother.

Have you checked out Grinding Station (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22550-Introducing-Grinding-Station/)?

I really like the list from Jona's March 2012 blog post here: Weekly Wars (http://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2012/03/)

The mana is solid. Everything feels consistent.

Next time I play it, though, I want to try a second PiF main. Maybe I would remove a Rite?

...

Edit:

I realize that Grinding Station has its own thread. Don't mean to derail this one. But you are asking about a solid manabase. I propose that this one is.

Dia_Bot

08-05-2012, 06:25 AM

I'm still not a fan of cutting Chain of Vapor completely for a more narrow answer. During 3 days at the GP I played Maverick in one round (and that wasn't even really maverick, it splashed black) out of the 25 I played. In Doomsday, when you can include a singleton bounce in the pile, I would advocate a dedicated answer to the most popular and challenging aggro deck. In ANT I'd like some multifunctionality.

That said, if you know you'll be facing loads of Maverick then you should play some DoN.

That's pretty much my feeling too. I've played 3 DoN sideboard (basicly because I couldn't affort wasting 4 slots on Maverick) and only came across maverick in one round during both days of the GP.
Ironicly I've won that match without seeing even a single copy of the card.

I think in a UBr list like the one played by Timo Shünemann or Ellie Pichon where you have access to preemptive answers you could do without the DoNs if you want and swap them for bounce. (This is ofc not recommended if you expect a lot of Maverick)

For the record I played a 7 chant version at the GP

MTG Junkie

08-05-2012, 10:12 AM

A 7 chant list,how did that work out for you?
Interested to see your list as well.

Tombstalker

08-05-2012, 12:10 PM

MTG Junkie
A 7 chant list,how did that work out for you?
Interested to see your list as well.
Seconded.

Have you checked out Grinding Station?

I really like the list from Jona's March 2012 blog post here: Weekly Wars

The mana is solid. Everything feels consistent.

Next time I play it, though, I want to try a second PiF main. Maybe I would remove a Rite?
Ive never even heard of that deck but it seems pretty resilient due to storm in hand, if you can draw into a storm card right? Personally I dont ever see myself playing without tutors since its one of the main appeals of storm for me. But, reading that thread did give me an idea (in the opposite direction of PiF) and ive been testing all last night and this morning.

To everyone whos been playing the full set of probes, why do we still run a secondary engine (PiF/IGG) in the main besides Ad naus? It seems to me that probe and EtW has largely replaced these engines.

Anyway bare with me on this, but ive moved PiF to the board and replaced it with EtW so EtW and tendrils main + 2 chrome mox, with PiF/IGG side. Heres why:
Ive found that my most common and even preferred early plays are (not necessarily in order)

-t1-2 EtW followed up by mini tendrils if necessary, meanwhile dumping my hand for EtW is like instant threshold. Probe + IMS facilitates this as a very common very broken t1 play and with therapy the deck acts like dredge here.
-Ad Nauseam-> IT/BW-> tendrils win (with sufficient life).

Later plays:
-cantrip/tutor chains-> win (this can also happen very early thanks to probes/IMS)
-last option, for me, is threshold cabal rituals enable alternate engines from the board.

I dont really miss maindeck PiF/IGG for any of these, also EtW is better than PiF vs. RUG delver. I would move tendrils to the board but ive missed it main more than the alternate engines due to more focus on Ad naus, tutor chains and natural mini tendrils. Lastly BW into PiF is a bait play with teeth, whereas IT for PiF is an all in play, sometimes even winmore. Meanwhile EtW in hand is usually going to be better than in-hand PiF except in the later stages of the game where we dont want to be.

Anyway maybe this isnt news to anyone but me so if not forgive the redundant post. Im pretty pleased with this so far though because UBr ANTs manabase works well with this setup since none of these plays require double wish/double red investment.

So, downsides?

Dia_Bot

08-05-2012, 05:45 PM

A 7 chant list,how did that work out for you?
Interested to see your list as well.
Seconded.

The list I played was the following:

2 Underground Sea
3 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Tundra
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest

4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Ad Nauseam
3 Orim's Chant
4 Silence
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Preordain
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

SB:
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Echoing Truth
3 Dread of Night
3 Extirpate
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Tropical Island

I was quite happy about the way the list worked out. The one thing I would probably change is adding one more G. Probe to the maindeck in favor of a land but that is pretty much it.

The idea was to have a stable mana base and a decent matchup against both the T1 decks (Maverick/reanimator/RUG..) as well as against the "random" decks. The reason for this is because I didn't have any byes going in the tournament.

My record for day 1 was 7-2 and for day 2 (unfortunately) 1-2 drop. The reason for the bad record day 2 was the fact that I had to play totaly sleep deprived day 2 and made mistakes because of it. (apparently getting any sleep is quite necessary when playing a magic tournament :rolleyes:)

Anyway, I played the following matchups day 1:

R1: Blue zoo W (2-0)
R2: Counterbalance W (2-1)
R3: Esper Blade W (2-1)
R4: Omnisience combo L (1-2) lost this one to a topdecked omniscience when I had a certain kill the next turn..:frown:
R5: Hive Mind W (2-1)
R6: Esper Blade W (2-0)
R7: Dredge W (2-0)
R8: Reanimator L (1-2)
R9: RUG W (2-0)

Day 2
R10: Maverick W (2-0)
R11: Show and Tell L (0-2) (Guy who made top 8)
R12: Merfolks L 1-2 drop
I should always have won the merfolk matchup but lost due to my own fault...oh..well..

All in all I was very happy with the way the deck worked (certainly considering the matchups day 1) and was quite bummed out to scrub out because of sleep deprivision. Luckily I saw my favourite deck win it all :tongue:.
If you have any questions about the list, feel free to ask.

Tombstalker

08-05-2012, 08:32 PM

Dia_Bot- Fucking awesome list man! I dont play white but that one has me tempted. Its like a throwback to ol'school with some new chant tech. Double naus double mox is something I was just considering today in fact, like an classic ANT with a double barreled carb and straight pipes. I must say though my current list is running like a champ tonight. Its the most pleased ive been with any variation so far. Only lost 1 game to reanimator and a fucking massacre wurm of all things killing 18 goblins and me.

Heres mine:
Lands 14
8 fetch
2 underground sea
1 volcanic island
1 badlands
1 island
1 swamp

Artifacts 9
4 LED
4 lotus petal
1 chrome mox

Instants 13
4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual
4 brainstorm
1 ad nauseam

Sorceries 24
4 ponder
4 gitaxian probe
4 duress
3 cabal therapy
4 infernal tutor
3 burning wish
1 tendrils of agony
1 empty the warrens

Sideboard 15
4 dread of night
2 echoing truth
1 hurkyl’s recall
1 silent departure
1 cabal therapy
1 ill-gotten gains
1 past in flames
1 tendrils of agony
1 empty the warrens
1 pyroclasm
1 meltdown

Having both EtW and tendrils main is so good, I dont think ive ever double stormed so often and I havent even considered wishing for PiF/IGG once so far. I might try your UB shell though instead of wishes while still keeping the discards since therapy is nuts with probe and warrens.

Dia_Bot

08-06-2012, 01:18 PM

Thanks man!
I really like the idea of running both ToA and EtW maindeck in UBr AnT.
I'll definitely try it out in an UBr list.

I would however personaly try to incorporate some graveyard removal in your sideboard to battle reanimator (and to a lesser extent dredge) because they can still be tricky matchups.
At first sight I would say the H. recall, silent departure and either Pif or IGG could be removed in favor of graveyard removal should you want to add some.
Other than that your list looks alot like the UBr list I was playtesting with and was quite happy about. :smile:

Tombstalker

08-06-2012, 02:41 PM

Ya IGG might go since i never need it and maybe even silent departure although that is actually more for reanimator/dredge then for maverick. The hurkyls might could go too, I just have a real hard time with prison decks like MUD or anything running chalice/3sphere. If I did drop these it would likely be for a couple extirpate and/or a couple karakas for sneak and show and reanimator, leaning towards karakas since those decks have ways around even instant speed grave hate.

Try both wincons main I've been very pleased so far in limited play and testing.

Zieby

08-08-2012, 12:12 PM

Dia-bot,
How did swarm work for you in the gp?

On another note.
Did someone test autems veil as a 3 or 4 in the md with discard and swarm and carpet in the sb?

Tombstalker

08-08-2012, 03:16 PM

On another note.
Did someone test autems veil as a 3 or 4 in the md with discard and swarm and carpet in the sb?
I think that is often referred to as the 'german list'. I asked a similar question some pages back but the answer I got is the red splash is better for ANT; otherwise with green TES is better (xantid swarms plus silence/discard) or QSI (carpet/swarm/discard). I was looking at UBg possibly with living wish fwiw.

Clown of Tresserhorn

08-08-2012, 11:44 PM

The list I played was the following:

2 Underground Sea
3 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Tundra
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest

4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Ad Nauseam
3 Orim's Chant
4 Silence
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Preordain
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

SB:
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Echoing Truth
3 Dread of Night
3 Extirpate
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Tropical Island

I was quite happy about the way the list worked out. The one thing I would probably change is adding one more G. Probe to the maindeck in favor of a land but that is pretty much it.

The idea was to have a stable mana base and a decent matchup against both the T1 decks (Maverick/reanimator/RUG..) as well as against the "random" decks. The reason for this is because I didn't have any byes going in the tournament.

My record for day 1 was 7-2 and for day 2 (unfortunately) 1-2 drop. The reason for the bad record day 2 was the fact that I had to play totaly sleep deprived day 2 and made mistakes because of it. (apparently getting any sleep is quite necessary when playing a magic tournament :rolleyes:)

Anyway, I played the following matchups day 1:

R1: Blue zoo W (2-0)
R2: Counterbalance W (2-1)
R3: Esper Blade W (2-1)
R4: Omnisience combo L (1-2) lost this one to a topdecked omniscience when I had a certain kill the next turn..:frown:
R5: Hive Mind W (2-1)
R6: Esper Blade W (2-0)
R7: Dredge W (2-0)
R8: Reanimator L (1-2)
R9: RUG W (2-0)

Day 2
R10: Maverick W (2-0)
R11: Show and Tell L (0-2) (Guy who made top 8)
R12: Merfolks L 1-2 drop
I should always have won the merfolk matchup but lost due to my own fault...oh..well..

All in all I was very happy with the way the deck worked (certainly considering the matchups day 1) and was quite bummed out to scrub out because of sleep deprivision. Luckily I saw my favourite deck win it all :tongue:.
If you have any questions about the list, feel free to ask.

I played something similar way back in the day. I didn't consider cutting all the discard for chant effects. Seems like that might be savage.

Also, why run 2 ad naus and 0 grim tutor? The high # of chant effects basically means IGG is the fucking nuts. I'd be tempted to toss in some tutors.

Even though this list looks awesome, I'm not convinced the white splash is better than the red splash. A much more potent Past in flames would be THE reason to play this deck over TES (atleast in my mind). I'm just not convinced that chants are better than discard, especially with the rise of counterbalance.

Anyways, congrats to making day 2!

Dia_Bot

08-09-2012, 05:36 AM

Dia-bot,
How did swarm work for you in the gp?

The swarms were very good all weekend (this may have something to do with the fact I played almost excusively against blue decks though).

I played something similar way back in the day. I didn't consider cutting all the discard for chant effects. Seems like that might be savage.

Also, why run 2 ad naus and 0 grim tutor? The high # of chant effects basically means IGG is the fucking nuts. I'd be tempted to toss in some tutors.

Even though this list looks awesome, I'm not convinced the white splash is better than the red splash. A much more potent Past in flames would be THE reason to play this deck over TES (atleast in my mind). I'm just not convinced that chants are better than discard, especially with the rise of counterbalance.

Anyways, congrats to making day 2!

I tested with either 1 and/or 2 Grim tutor but in a list with 7 chants Grim tutor just didn't cut it. The reason is that unlike in the UB list with one or multiple swamps at your disposal in this list you can't really cast Grim tutor proactively and not risk having your lands wastelanded and running behind on mana.
Also the inclusion of G. Tutor do make your Ad Nauseams worse (basicly because apart from the tutors itself you will need more mana so will have to go up to 4 C. Rit etc.).

In essence I would play Grim tutor in a list with basic swamps, less Ad Nauseams and less Chrome mox but in this particular list they just didn't cut it.

That being said IGG is indeed totaly insane with so many chant effects, I won almost all my game on the back of IGG.

I won't argue over which version is the best because there is no right answer imho.
I do play both versions so my choice is based merely on which decks I expect to face.

Tombstalker

08-11-2012, 10:37 PM

For those of you who play with 1 (or more) chrome mox, how often do you wish it were something else? The reason I ask is while I have found it beneficial from time to time I'm considering putting a single extirpate in its place and I'm looking for someone to talk me into, or out of it.

Downside to the swap is mostly limited to casting AdN with no mana floating, and possibly having no worthwhile targets to extract.

The upside is extirpate is great with all our discard in plenty of situations including everything blue and all grave decks, plus its just one more way to peak and frees up a spot in the board.

Rampart

08-11-2012, 11:58 PM

I currently have a chrome mox in my build which sometimes I switch out for a second island. I have been really happy with it lately, as it has basically acts like a second land drop for a turn or makes my ad nausem's consistency a little better. I think the biggest thing chrome mox does is helps you get naturally hellbent, I always seem to have that one awkward card in my hand I can't cast. :frown:

I guess the way I see it, IMHO, in game one you need to be as efficient as possible. The chrome mox will almost always help while the extirpate is a "win more" that doesn't you get there most of the time.

aaronm678

08-13-2012, 08:24 AM

I got 9th at the latest SCG (I suck at tie-breaker math apparently).

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=48628

Not going to write a full tourney report, but I played against 1x Reanimator, 3x Rug, 1x Maverick, 1x Elves, 1x Burn, with my loss coming to one of the RUG players.

My SB probably looks a little weird -- against any deck I'm racing (usually Burn, Elves, Zoo, other combo, and some non-blue decks), I typically board out 3x Lands and a Grim Tutor for 3x Chrome Mox and an Ad Nauseam, which makes Ad Naus w/ 0 floating fairly reliable (the way my maindeck is configured, it's pretty much suicide). The maindeck is configured to beat the blue decks, so I run a lot of lands to play around Spell Pierces and Dazes and such. I have playtested Burning Wish quite a bit, and I haven't been a huge fan (I always find it hard to cast) -- this could be my playstyle, though, as I play this deck very control-ly, and I think you need to be much more aggressive if you're playing w/ burning wish.

Also, worth mentioning, my maindeck against Maverick is actually fairly weak (probably 40-45% if I'm on the draw), but after sideboard it becomes very hard to lose. I have tried Dread of Night, and I don't really like it...they usually have enough time to GSZ for a Teeg, and then you need to stick two of them before they Qasali Pridemage one, which is easier said than done.

Tombstalker

08-13-2012, 09:52 AM

I guess the way I see it, IMHO, in game one you need to be as efficient as possible. The chrome mox will almost always help while the extirpate is a "win more" that doesn't you get there most of the time.
Ya your right it was a bad idea and I missed the mox in testing more than I thought I would.

I got 9th at the latest SCG (I suck at tie-breaker math apparently).
Congrats thats a good showing man. I personally like BW (much more now with EtW main) but I dont own grims anyway so the choice is easy. I like the double clasms in your board how did they perform?
Fair enough on dread of night because obviously your answers worked well enough for you at SCG. My problem with alternatives to DoN is that t1 mom into anything is such a pain in the ass and can quickly get out of control meaning I need multiple answers in hand anyway at which point I just prefer DoN, but maybe im doing it wrong idk. Anyway nice showing.

Rampart

08-13-2012, 12:05 PM

I got 9th at the latest SCG (I suck at tie-breaker math apparently).

Congrats. It's nice to see two ANT decks in the top sixteen.

Does any one know if there was any storm video taken at SCG KC? I missed watching on Sunday.

Thanks

aaronm678

08-13-2012, 01:30 PM

Congrats. It's nice to see two ANT decks in the top sixteen.

Does any one know if there was any storm video taken at SCG KC? I missed watching on Sunday.

Thanks

I was a fake feature match from rounds 4-7 I think, I was never on camera. I don't think the other guy who was at the top tables on storm was either.

As far as Pyroclasm -- I think the card is another strike against Dread of Night. With Pyroclasm, you get a card that is very good against Elves, Merfolk, Goblins, and Maverick. With Dread of Night, you get a card that is good against Maverick and that is really it.

It can be awkward if they have Mother of Runes out, as that will require Pyroclasm + another spell to get rid of a hate bear, so it can't be your only SB card vs Maverick. I've tried Infest, Massacre, and various removal spells (Lightning Bolt, Slaughter Pact, etc) in those slots, and I don't think I would ever go below 2 Pyroclasms.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS

08-13-2012, 02:43 PM

Dark Ritual

08-13-2012, 08:50 PM

aaronm678

08-13-2012, 09:14 PM

Sad to hear about your I.D. going badly, especially when you could have easily beat the lands player who carpooled with me down to Kansas City.

Yeah...after I got a closer look at the standings, we were both retarded for drawing -- there were like 4 other tables of X-1s. When I looked at it in the crowd, I thought it said we were 4/5 with 6 x-1 below us. Oh well, shit happens...learned my lesson though, if I'm not 100% sure, I just need to play it out to be sure.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS

08-14-2012, 01:40 AM

Also met Random Gestures/Kirby there, which was nice. Still disappointing to see him on the canadian thresh plan though. I feel that if you run hot with storm it is very hard to lose, as you are running the most powerful deck in the format if you sleeve up storm combo in any number of iterations.

Thresh is my closet deck. Secret's out.

Koby

08-14-2012, 02:20 AM

Thresh is my closet deck. Secret's out.

I hope to dear G-d you played pink sleeves. I feel like I've been cheated on with you on RUG.

/wrist.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS

08-14-2012, 02:25 AM

I hope to dear G-d you played pink sleeves. I feel like I've been cheated on with you on RUG.

/wrist.

LGS was sold out of pink sleeves. Having issues with the supplier. Settled for purple. I used my Tendrils playmat. Several opponents admitted to have put me on the wrong deck.

Dia_Bot

08-14-2012, 04:59 AM

I was the other ad nauseam player that got 14th. Lost my win and in against counterbalance miracles. Also lost to dredge because extirpate wasn't surgical extraction and myself making subtle misplays. I had zero feature matches, something I'm just sighing at. Like, really? Apparently you have to X-0 forever to get a feature match as my last round opponent got feature matches 5 times the entire day or something like that. I often sat next to people who had feature matches, leaving me plenty of space for my dice and other such things due to no one sitting next to me ever since I was at the top tables almost the entire day. Sad to hear about your I.D. going badly, especially when you could have easily beat the lands player who carpooled with me down to Kansas City. Overall loved the deck, might have to get rid of the extirpates in my board though as they weren't doing anything almost the entire day.

My report for those interested

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24459-Top-16-at-SCG-Kansas-City-with-UBr-ANT&p=665214#post665214

Also met Random Gestures/Kirby there, which was nice. Still disappointing to see him on the canadian thresh plan though. I feel that if you run hot with storm it is very hard to lose, as you are running the most powerful deck in the format if you sleeve up storm combo in any number of iterations. I felt that UBr ANT was the right call for the event overall. Wastelands were there in high numbers and basics > wasteland for obvious reasons. I think I was wastelanded no more than 3 times over the entire day. Also ran the list at a local the week before and it felt incredibly powerful to me, at least it ran better than Bahamuth's TES list, which was rather unkind to me and it lacked basic lands and had the problem of 3 chrome mox, a card which I have historically hated with a passion typically as 2 for 1'ing yourself for +1 highly conditional type of mana is usually bad.

Too bad you didn't get a feature match, I'm still waiting for the day to see a competent AnT player get a feature match..(a lot of the plays on SCGlive feature matches make me die a little inside :tongue:).
Anyway, on the topic of the extirpates: I don't know if you it's such a good choice to cut them from your sideboard .
The way I see it you want some slots on Reanimator/dredge and the best way to do both of them is by playing extirpate. T Crypt/Surgical and G. Cage might be better against dredge but lack power against reanimator due to not being uncounterable. F Macabre is anothother option but is just not good enough against dredge.

Another option might be to cut one dread of night for one extra anti graveyard slot. I have recently cut one dread of night from my list (I am playing almost exactly the same list as you with the only difference being one more IoK) and so far didn't have any trouble against maverick with 3 DoN as apposed to the full playset.

Just my 2 cents.

PS: Nevertheless gj on the result, too bad you didn't made it to the top 8.

Sloshthedark

08-14-2012, 09:29 AM

1, how could you ever ID with a Lands Player? (to meet him in top8 obv., ok but still sounds awful)
2, I like your list

aaronm678

08-14-2012, 10:18 AM

1, how could you ever ID with a Lands Player? (to meet him in top8 obv., ok but still sounds awful)
2, I like your list

:) I didn't know he was on lands, but I probably would have IDed even if I had. As I said before, I misread the standings and thought I was a lock for top 8 with a draw, and there's no real reason to play a match (even a 95% matchup) and risk not top 8-ing.

Of course, hindsight is 20/20 and I'm an idiot.

dsck

08-14-2012, 10:26 AM

:) I didn't know he was on lands, but I probably would have IDed even if I had. As I said before, I misread the standings and thought I was a lock for top 8 with a draw, and there's no real reason to play a match (even a 95% matchup) and risk not top 8-ing.

Of course, hindsight is 20/20 and I'm an idiot.

You do know that if you are high on the standings you get to go first each game on t8, right? Locally theres less IDs now because people want this advantage.

aaronm678

08-14-2012, 10:37 AM

You do know that if you are high on the standings you get to go first each game on t8, right? Locally theres less IDs now because people want this advantage.

At most of the SCG events, it's a split top 8, so that's more or less irrelevant (it is cool to take down the tournament and all, but not as cool as the $750 you get for splitting top 8).

Rampart

08-14-2012, 10:44 AM

You do know that if you are high on the standings you get to go first each game on t8, right? Locally there's less IDs now because people want this advantage.

I can see that being the case with smaller local tournaments where prize support is not as good but when you have these 8-9 round exhausting legacy events were you are locked for a decent prize if you top eight I think ID'ing is the way to go. That extra hour to get some food and take a break is huge.

lambert101

08-14-2012, 01:31 PM

Started to brew the following:

Main:

1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
3 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
3 Duress
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Ponder
1 Tendrils of Agony

1 Badlands
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

Side:
4 Dread of Night
2 Echoing Truth
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Pyroclasm
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 Duress
1 Meltdown

Boarding Plans:

RUG:
- 1 Chrome Mox
- 1 Infernal
- 1 Cabal Therapy
+ 3 Inquisition of Kozilek

Maverick:
-3 Duress
-2 Chrome Mox
-3 Cabal Therapy
-1 Burning Wish

+2 Echoing Truth
+2 Inquisition of Kozilek
+4 Dread of Night

Control (Stoneblade/Miracles):
-2 Chrome Mox
-1 Infernal
-2 Cabal Therapy

+3 Inquisition of Kozilek
+2 Echoing Truth

Leave any questions, comments, or concerns. If you can think of a better boarding plan please share it.

MTG Junkie

08-14-2012, 03:21 PM

Mainboard PIF is the nuts.
I would advise playing it main.
What I do when I play ANT is try to win all my game ones with PIF.
That way people think there grave hate is better than it is. When game two comes and they distort there deck with more grave hate than normal,I swap the PIF for Empty the Warrens.
Gets em every time.
Never been a fan of the one of Chrome Mox list,let alone two I prefer lands.
I would also recommend not boarding out the 4th IT with only 3 B Wish in the main. Decks like TES cand do that because they play 4 B Wish 4 IT main,but its not a good plan for ANT.
This is all from my months and months of EXP with the deck.

Try it out and let me know if you like it.

emidln

08-14-2012, 03:28 PM

Rampart

08-14-2012, 03:37 PM

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Chrome Mox
1 Past in Flames
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Snapcaster Mage
0 Preordain
14 lands (2 island, 2 swamp, 2 sea, 8 fetch)

Do you feel like you have enough red generating sources to cast past in flames consistently?

emidln

08-14-2012, 03:38 PM

Do you feel like you have enough red generating sources to cast past in flames consistently?

Yes. You have 4 Petal, 4 LED. If you really wanted more red, you could consider cutting the Chrome Mox for a 15th land that would likely want to be a Volcanic Island.

Rampart

08-14-2012, 03:46 PM

I was just wondering, I seem to always reach for my Volcanic Island for Red and I didn't know if you missed having that land in there at all. But I guess you did cut the burning wishes for Snapcaster Mage's so you really shouldn't ever have a need for a red land.

Tombstalker

08-14-2012, 04:55 PM

Interesting to note that with Probe, Therapy, and Snapcaster Mage it's not uncommon to just naturally Tendrils someone.

Snapcaster Mage is interesting for a few reasons. It works as extra disruption, both flash blocking and being able to rebuy Duress and/or Therapy. It functions similar to Preordain or SDT in that it keeps you going when you'd otherwise fizzle out. It can function as an Infernal Tutor by rebuying various ritual effects if you just need some extra storm or mana on your combo turn. It doesn't look good in a goldfish, but it makes the deck run very smoothly.
Yes! Glad someone else has been messing around with snapcaster. I use the little guy pretty often but I quit mentioning it here since I could never get anyone else into a discussion on it. Anyway I vary between 1-2 but 3 seems like too many, especially since you can IT for one to chain out.
I did find SCM really lessens the need for loop spells like IGG or even PiF in the main, have you considered a 2nd AdN in place of PiF? Ive been finding lately that I rarely need any kind of loop/draw spell to combo off, especially with EtW main as an alternative so ive just been running a single PiF in my board since early game its not usually that good and later I can wish for it.

lambert101- your list is very close to what I run although your boarding plan is different (mine is pretty fluid though). I would suggest the 4th probe over the 2nd mox, its just that good and makes SBing easier I think.

4 Dread of Night
2 Echoing Truth
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Pyroclasm
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 Duress
1 Meltdown
Your SB looks good from where im standing although I question why so many people fill up on IoK? I dont like the plan of discarding threats/hatebears since those decks can topdeck/dig for one too easy. Meanwhile therapies + EtW tokens does this just as well I think. Also I dropped my grave hate for a short while but regretted it pretty quickly, just something to consider since those matches are difficult.

Boarding Plans:
I like your plans except I wouldnt board out wish/IT. I also tend to board out some number of probes once I have an idea of what to expect or if its an aggressive deck. RUG is the biggest problem when boarding for me since I really dont have anything worthwhile to bring in ATM. Im reconsidering defense grid but I wish there was something a little more..hateful. Ideas anyone?

lambert101

08-14-2012, 10:01 PM

@Tombstalker

I really don't care for the extra discard but don't know what to put in. Possibly extirpates or grafdigger's cafe? Do you mind sharing your current list and boarding plans so we can test similar lists?

Thanks,

Lambert101

thefringthing

08-14-2012, 10:50 PM

Snapcaster Mage to flashback Therapy is very intriguing. I'd be interested in seeing your complete 75, emidln.

Tombstalker

08-14-2012, 11:38 PM

Lambert101- my current 60 is same as yours -1 mox +1 probe. My board changes here and there but currently is:
4 dread of night
2 echoing truth
2 gilded drake
1 extirpate
2 surgical extraction
1 infest
1 tendrils of agony
1 empty the warrens
1 shattering spree

This is based on what I face though and I'm wanting a wishable sweeper or removal for g1 sometimes.

On snapcaster- he can sometimes fall short without sufficient mana or be dead early or in multiples. That being said scm + rits + therapy is 3 storm for 0. He's insane value at times but UB still suffers from not enough tutors at times IMO. I was testing entomb in place of grims/bw to mitigate that. EtW main is better with therapies but scm is fun and more versatile.

Dark Ritual

08-15-2012, 01:12 AM

I am very interested in a snapcaster tendrils list, as snapcaster is insane value. Sure he flashbacks dark ritual for a net zero mana however that ramps up storm and with therapy in the yard netting 3 storm is no small thing. With cabal ritual snapcaster has the potential to add +1 mana as well.

I absolutely despise chrome mox in this deck after kansas city. Every time I naturally drew it without a brainstorm to shuffle it back it was quite crappy. I would probably substitute it for a volcanic in your list Emidln, sure it makes ad nauseam a little worse. However I almost never go for ad nauseam with this deck as I prefer a guaranteed kill with PiF. Also of note PiF is insane and I was wrong about it, at least in this deck. Flashbacking cabal rit with threshold is obscenely good. IGG is a lot worse in comparison, at least for now with infinite blue decks in the metagame IGG is very bad and usually doesn't get there unless your hand is stacked i.e. you can afford to get back one or two protection spells along with a tutor. If you NEED to get back two protection spells, you only need twelve mana to win before you resolve IGG to get back infernal, therapy, therapy or some mixture depending on your opponents grave. If they have two FoW's you need 2 duresses or a therapy. It is quite unlikely that this scenario pops up often, as it often involves all the lotuses or all the threshed cabal rits or a mixture of both.

The sideboard, as usual, is meta dependant. In my UBr list that I just top 16'ed with I am heavily considering cutting the singleton chrome mox for the 4th duress maindeck and changing that sideboard slot to some wishable artifact removal. And I am seriously considering cutting the 3 extirpates for 3 pyroblasts, as counterblance and clique were the only reason I didn't top 8. Also saw next to no reanimator in the entire room at SCG KC, I think I saw it a grand total of one time while walking around the hall. While I suspect that with countertop miracles winning the event it will become extremely popular in the coming weaks, leading me to running pyroblast to combat countertop miracle's clique's and counterbalance's because those cards are public enemy number 2 behind force of will in my eyes for UBr ANT. Heck, I infinitely prefer to face just force of will as that is almost too easy to beat because most people never draw more than one force of will a game leading me discarding it and untapping into the win or winning on the spot after they are completely stripped of their hard counter unless they have some soft counters, but those are typically easy to play around in my experience.

Silent Requiem

08-15-2012, 01:53 AM

I've been pretty happy playing with:

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Chrome Mox
1 Past in Flames
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Snapcaster Mage
0 Preordain
14 lands (2 island, 2 swamp, 2 sea, 8 fetch)

Interesting to note that with Probe, Therapy, and Snapcaster Mage it's not uncommon to just naturally Tendrils someone.

Snapcaster Mage is interesting for a few reasons. It works as extra disruption, both flash blocking and being able to rebuy Duress and/or Therapy. It functions similar to Preordain or SDT in that it keeps you going when you'd otherwise fizzle out. It can function as an Infernal Tutor by rebuying various ritual effects if you just need some extra storm or mana on your combo turn. It doesn't look good in a goldfish, but it makes the deck run very smoothly.

My sideboard has been roughly:

2-3 Confidant, 2-3 Chain of Vapor, 3 Karakas, 1-2 Tendrils of Agony, 2-3 Wipe Away, 3 Virtue's Ruin.

I've basically put down DDFT to play this deck for the foreseeable future.

I read this right before heading to bed, and I liked the list so much I immediately sleeved it up and spent another two hours testing it.

UB ANT has always been my favorite ANT build, and this just seems to go to a whole new level. Snapcaster solves the biggest problem discard has as a strategy vs chant effects, which is that chant often provides virtual card advantage. Snapcaster also allows some very interesting combo chains.

From other testing, though, I know I prefer a singleton Mox Diamond over a singleton Chrome Mox. After an Ad Nauseam it provides whatever colour I need without having to pitch a business spell, which is sometimes relevant. And while I don't want to see it in my opening hand (any more than Chrome Mox), it can sometimes allow me to get hellbent in hands that otherwise would have been dead. It's fairly easy for this deck to cast it's spells, but more difficult to dump it's lands. Finally, you discard the land, rather than exile the spell, so it can sometimes make getting threshold that little bit easier, too.

Sloshthedark

08-15-2012, 03:54 AM

I also pondered with Snapcaster, but abandoned him because aside some insane value usualy in long games I find it clumsy in T2 T3 mode often not supporting threshold and not synergic with Pif, so after moving to SB he was pushed out by more straightforward cards so I'd say he doesn't fit my playstyle... But still interesting setup by emidln, I'll give it a try, i disliked BW lately so aarons list interests me, i like how changing just few cards change how deck feels/plays out dramaticly, glad to see the thread's alive

@tombstalker - more pif, more toa, actualy I'm more happy playing against Thresh than Maverick

Tombstalker

08-15-2012, 11:07 AM

Dark ritual- I think we were saying similar things except I was lazy posting from my phone. I said it a few pages back but snapcaster is like a mini one-sided IGG at times, generating storm without giving back previously discarded countermagic. This is why I believe snapcaster as a 1-of is probably the correct way to play it, if at all.

Sloshthedark
I also pondered with Snapcaster, but abandoned him because aside some insane value usualy in long games I find it clumsy in T2 T3 mode often not supporting threshold and not synergic with Pif, so after moving to SB he was pushed out by more straightforward cards so I'd say he doesn't fit my playstyle... But still interesting setup by emidln, I'll give it a try, i disliked BW lately so aarons list interests me, i like how changing just few cards change how deck feels/plays out dramaticly, glad to see the thread's alive
I agree with this which is why I mostly just dig him out for fun. EtW main is better letting us play out like dredge with tendrils backup. When I do use a single SCM he replaces 1 BW.

@tombstalker - more pif, more toa, actually I'm more happy playing against Thresh than Maverick
Not sure what you mean by that since I have tendrils main and side? PiF has moved to side for now in favor of EtW although I go back and forth on whether PiF should replace tendrils in the main but for now im satisfied. PiF is very very good but so is 10-14 tokens t1, otherwise I usually just chain tutors or naturally tendrils thanks to probe therapy. Note that EtW > thresh.deck, I just would prefer to have some sort of "edge" to bring in, in addition to EtW, not sure what though.

emidln

08-15-2012, 11:17 AM

I cast Snapcaster Mage on turn 2 and 3 all the time. Everything from rebuying Dark Ritual or Cabal Ritual to rebuying Probe + blocking/therapying to casting AdN using LED mana. Sometimes Snapcaster Mage is *only* a regrowth after an opponent stopped a turn 2 attempt by countering mana.

aaronm678

08-15-2012, 12:20 PM

Note that EtW > thresh.deck, I just would prefer to have some sort of "edge" to bring in, in addition to EtW, not sure what though.

Interesting -- I don't even bring in ETW against Thresh, as very rarely do I have trouble generating lethal storm against them.

My gameplan against them is to just sit and discard them while I hit land drops, so I don't have to worry about crap like Wasteland, Daze, Stifle, and Pierce. ETW is only really good if you're sitting at 10+ life and they have no Delver out, which isn't typically when I want to go all in against them.

Currently I board -3 Gitaxian Probe, +3 Thoughtseize.

Tombstalker

08-15-2012, 12:38 PM

Interesting -- I don't even bring in ETW against Thresh, as very rarely do I have trouble generating lethal storm against them.

My gameplan against them is to just sit and discard them while I hit land drops, so I don't have to worry about crap like Wasteland, Daze, Stifle, and Pierce. ETW is only really good if you're sitting at 10+ life and they have no Delver out, which isn't typically when I want to go all in against them.
This plan is still completely viable for me, I simply have the option of t1-2 EtW 8 ways (7 tutors or EtW in hand) for only 4-6 mana. Thats sick and 1 less then casting ad nauseam blind. Its just one more option. A very common play is probe-> therapy-> IMS-> EtW-> flashback therapy. Most decks simply cannot recover in time and if they do tendrils finishes it. Even without therapy in the mix its easy to chain 5 spells and put them on a 2 turn clock. Meanwhile ALL pressure is taken off of you while they scramble to survive.
How many times do you (or anyone else) find that when casting PiF it is simply to showboat? Serious question. Im not trashing PiF, because the card is ill, its just that we can only have so many cc4 in the main so for me its between tendrils or PiF. Sure sometimes its much needed to power through counters (in which case I currently board it in, rarely) but often it just isnt necessary, especially with probes and therapies + tokens for flashback. This is why EtW came in (thanks to bahamuth) and initially why I began testing snapcaster also, because a "lesser" on color version was often all I needed. Anyway it just gives the deck a more aggressive option against decks where the long game isnt advised and it wrecks tempo strategies. Its like adding 5 more ad nauseams to the maindeck with no drawback. Anyway not saying tendrils main is correct in my build though, PiF might be the better option but EtW stays.

aaronm678

08-15-2012, 01:53 PM

To me it seems like Ad Naus is the card you should look at cutting, as it seems like it's similar in function to EtW (a finisher that requires fewer resources and setup than PiF) - very few cards are as powerful as a turn 3+ past in flames, so it seems wrong to cut to me.

That said, our lists play out very differently, so it's hard for me to comment on yours (my list is more similar to the older, slower lists that used to Iggy loop, your list is faster and much more similar to TES). That said, at least in my version, PiF is the only finisher I would never swap out.

Snapcaster seems pretty cool, I might try 1 or 2 - kinda neat that it nets an extra storm in a tutor chain w/ therapy in the bin.

Tombstalker

08-15-2012, 02:02 PM

aaronm678
To me it seems like Ad Naus is the card you should look at cutting, as it seems like it's similar in function to EtW (a finisher that requires fewer resources and setup than PiF) - very few cards are as powerful as a turn 3+ past in flames, so it seems wrong to cut to me.

That said, our lists play out very differently, so it's hard for me to comment on yours (my list is more similar to the older, slower lists that used to Iggy loop, your list is faster and much more similar to TES). That said, at least in my version, PiF is the only finisher I would never swap out.
I have actually considered dropping ad naus but the card just wins sometimes. I think the best option is likely PiF main and tendrils side but im trying the other for now. Your right our lists play very differently. The fact that one card in 75 changes the fundamental nature of the deck is the true beauty of storm combo and why I probably cant ever play anything else again. That said im newer to storm than most of you guys here so im still on a journey of discovery even though I feel proficient with the archtype now.

Snapcaster seems pretty cool, I might try 1 or 2 - kinda neat that it nets an extra storm in a tutor chain w/ therapy in the bin.
It adds a whole new dimension to the deck but increases the chances of fizzling if your not careful. Its hard to say what the correct number is; its not good to open with one usually but tutoring for one increases the mana commitment. Currently I like 1.

Edit- upon further reflection Im not sure why I sided PiF for tendrils now. I know I wanted to reduce the color commitment necessary for early ad nauseam kills but the infrequency of ad naus kills suggests im wrong. Maindeck tendrils does have other benefits as well but now im not so sure they outweigh the loss of a card as powerful as PiF. Need to re-evaluate this.

alderon666

08-15-2012, 03:10 PM

I made an SCD about this on General, but how about Augur of Bolas instead of Snapcaster?

Augur enables Therapy just like, is a better blocker, less mana intensive, doesn't hurt ********, filters a bit, is cheaper than Snap -> Ponder.

It doesn't flashback Duress, Cabal Ritual, Tendrils.

Dark Ritual

08-15-2012, 03:25 PM

Ad Nauseam is a necessary evil. I, for one, want to have an out when my opponent drops leyline of the void/graveyard hate against me and ad nauseam is plenty fine when you float 1 or more mana with it that mana typically being black.

Augur seems intriguing, although I'm not sure how good augur would be over snappy. Snapcaster into ponder/brainstorm is incredibly powerful. Augur can't grab LED/Petal either, which is a serious downside to the card. In a creature oriented list of ANT there could be something to be said for augur, although it would require a radically different shell in comparison to current ANT lists. I know it would be fun revealing culling the weak to augur of bolas, I'm just not sure if it's better than standard ANT lists.

Tombstalker

08-15-2012, 03:54 PM

Augur is similar only worse than snapcaster since its the selection plus flash that really makes SCM broken at times. Even so in a deck teeming with broken instants and sorceries snapcaster usually doesnt even make the cut.

aaronm678

08-15-2012, 05:28 PM

Augur seems kinda like a bad preordain, a card already not good enough for most lists. The blocking is sometimes nice, but usually not relevant, similar w/ cabal therapy.

We usually don't have a problem finding spells, so a suboptimal dig spell isn't really needed. Snapcaster is interesting because it can be a bad dig spell, a bad discard spell, or a bad storm generator, whichever we need when it's drawn.

I'm not sure you can run 14 land snapcaster lists, as it seems bad to have to crack a lotus petal to cast it, so you really want 3 land out (I'd guess somewhere between 16 and 18 land would be needed)

Tombstalker

08-15-2012, 07:08 PM

aaronm678 wrote:

To me it seems like Ad Naus is the card you should look at cutting
I have taken a second to reconsider this and I think your right. Its the namesake of the deck but honestly its better in TES and more of a last option here. Check this out:

Lands
8 fetch
2 underground sea
1 volcanic island
1 badlands
1 island
1 swamp

Artifacts
4 LED
4 lotus petal

Instants
4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual
4 brainstorm

Sorceries
4 ponder
4 gitaxian probe
4 cabal therapy
4 infernal tutor
3 duress
2 burning wish
1 tendrils of agony
1 empty the warrens
1 past in flames

Creatures
2 snapcaster mage

I was wrong it wasnt PiF I needed to cut, it was ad nauseam.

The list doesnt seem to miss ad naus since EtW replaces it as the superior and cheaper early option and without AdN it can pack more higher cc cards and lose the moxen. The deck features both wincons main and side so its very resilient and versatile. Burning wish because 4 tutors are hard to find sometimes. This (or something similar) feels like the natural evolution of ANT.

Land count doesnt seem to be an issue when most of the deck remains on color for basics, especially now with EtW ability to bring serious pressure from the start, others might prefer more lands though idk. As for snapcaster ya often you will need to use rits or IMS to cast it but he can always flashback a rit.

Rampart

08-15-2012, 07:54 PM

Your list feels more like a grinding station list. To be honest it's not that much different then my updated list from when I top 8'ed SCG DC with grinding station.

You should find an extra slot for another tendrils main deck if you want to have a chance against all the counterbalance miracle decks running around. When you loose the ad nasusem (which is a huge weapon) your most likely going to have to mini tendrils them twice to pull out the win.

Tombstalker

08-15-2012, 08:35 PM

Rampart
Your list feels more like a grinding station list. To be honest it's not that much different then my updated list from when I top 8'ed SCG DC with grinding station.

You should find an extra slot for another tendrils main deck if you want to have a chance against all the counterbalance miracle decks running around. When you loose the ad nasusem (which is a huge weapon) your most likely going to have to mini tendrils them twice to pull out the win.
Ya it does seem closer to grinding station with SCM in place of more copies of tendrils/PiF. Not that SCM is essential, just wanted to throw the list out for discussion really. The ability to mini tendrils is one of strengths of the deck since SCM can flash tendrils or EtW back among other things. Do you really think losing ad nauseam hurts that badly? I know id miss the EoT ad naus but its so hard for me to evaluate cards in this deck because it has so many avenues to victory.

Rampart

08-15-2012, 09:54 PM

Dark Ritual

08-16-2012, 12:23 AM

I think losing ad neasuem from your 75 hurts. It doesn't have to be in your main deck per say but you should have a single copy somewhere. There are match ups where Ad Neasuem is your best chance of winning (maverick, dredge, etc.) and you just need to race.

I'm really not going to try to race maverick getting a turn 2 hatebear every time in a deck that rarely turn 1's people and only sometimes has a turn 2 win at least in my experience. Sure that strategy works if you're on fire during a tournament, but I prefer to sculpt while canonist/thalia are down and then proceed to win immediately after answering said hatebears.

Ad nauseam is an automatic 1 of in the 75 if not maindeck. Past in flames doesn't always work if I don't have enough dark/cabal rit's the card will fail miserably so ad nauseam is the next option. If I'm facing blue and the coast is clear I want to win on the spot before they topdeck a FoW, so if I'm not winning with PiF I'm almost always going for AdN if I have enough life to do so. The only reason I'd go for PiF is if I lack a tutor and raw drew the PiF and have some ponders/probes/brainstorms to flashback to hopefully find me business and if they don't, hey I still drew some cards and it isn't GG's unless the opponent has lethal onboard.

Sure his list is closing to grinding station, although it isn't really grinding station in practice and because his list doesn't look like grinding station lists that run 3 PiF and 3 tendrils maindeck because they aim to 8-7 the opponent. Infernal tutor isn't usually run in grinding station lists either, at least when I played the deck I didn't run it. Although now is the best time to be running cabal rit/IT/BW because spell snare is in almost no decklists currently, at least RUG players are replacing it straight up for spell pierce and I have to agree with that change from a meta standpoint because the number of 2 drops in legacy has decreased enormously.

Dia_Bot

08-16-2012, 02:16 AM

Personaly I would never cut Ad Nauseam from this deck.
The thing is that when you do cut it your deck loses its fastest win condition which needs the least set-up.
Also, while snapcaster may be cool and all it's also a rather slow card.
The result is that you will need more setup and will be playing a slower combodeck (much like grinding station).

This will IMO hurt your matchups against other combodecks.

Rampart

08-16-2012, 08:41 AM

Whoa, I am trying to advocate for Ad Nauseam being in the main deck.

I think there are match-ups that Ad Nauseam gives you the best chance of victory. That being said I can understand someone wanting to cut it from the main deck. I find that I almost always kill via tutor chain or PIF the first game because it is so hard to disrupt and there is no variance. I tend to win the second games with Ad Nauseam because they really hate on my graveyard because of the first game.

I'm really not going to try to race maverick getting a turn 2 hatebear every time in a deck that rarely turn 1's people and only sometimes has a turn 2 win at least in my experience. Sure that strategy works if you're on fire during a tournament, but I prefer to sculpt while canonist/thalia are down and then proceed to win immediately after answering said hatebears.

Race was probably the wrong word. If you kill them with the PIF engine the first game maverick tends to bring in a lot of graveyard hate, which makes the PIF win harder game two. Ad Nauseam is a better engine in the second game versus maverick because it is harder for them to disrupt. With that in mind you need to manage your life total more, and that can be difficult against a deck with 30 creatures.

Sure his list is closing to grinding station, although it isn't really grinding station in practice and because his list doesn't look like grinding station lists that run 3 PiF and 3 tendrils maindeck because they aim to 8-7 the opponent. Infernal tutor isn't usually run in grinding station lists either, at least when I played the deck I didn't run it.

I think the concept that grinding station is an 8-7 is antiquated. It is too difficult to consistently 8-7 people in a long tournament, Grinding Station is going to live or die on the PIF engine. Infernal Tutors add consistency and explosiveness to the deck which is needs, it also make side-boarding into ANT realistic. Once you cut the Ad Nauseam from your main deck and free yourself from the CMC restraints of ANT your running some form of Grinding Station IMHO.

If you change three cards from his deck list you end up that is my current grinding station list.

-2 SCM and -1 ETW
+2 TOA and +1 PIF

if anyone actually cares

Tombstalker

08-16-2012, 10:45 AM

This is probably all out of wack since im still slurping coffee..

Anyway for the sake of discussion lets look at the cards we would all likely consider good enough to make the main in ANT, im talking engines and wincons:

1 EtW
1 PiF
1 AdN
1 ToA

Obviously running all 4 would be sweet (maybe we should) but that would in turn make ad nauseam even more dangerous than it already is, so IMO something has to go:

Tendrils? Likely the best place to start since wishing into a lethal tendrils usually isnt a problem, except then ad nauseam with B floating wont always get you there, even less likely with no mana floating.

EtW? If you arent maindecking this you need to try it. With 4 probes 4 therapies it becomes insane. Ever played against dredge and thought "that deck is broken as fuck"? Well now storm combo can do the same thing, reliably. This is top of my list for inclusion since maindeck makes it the most efficient wincon to cast and it isnt life dependent.

PiF? I did cut this recently and didnt miss it...until I put it back in. This. card. rocks. Stupid decision to SB it, my mistake.

AdN? One of if not the most powerful single card draw engine in the format, yet very conditional and a crap shoot to boot. More reliable if running multiple mox (and tendrils main). If tendrils goes then this loses appeal.

So theres my thoughts. Coffee time.

Jonathan Alexander

08-16-2012, 11:24 AM

When I was still running Grinding Station the only reason I was running Empty the Warrens maindeck was because I couldn't run more than four Tendrils. When I started running Burning Wish, I moved it to the sideboard, and I'm quite sure that's where it belongs in this deck as well.
Empty the Warrens is quite awkward if you can't consistently cast it on turn one. If you cast it later, it often doesn't cut it, considering how many sweepers there currently are in Legacy and how easily Maverick can win through (or rather not lose to) 10-12 Goblins. Therefore I think you only want to have Empty the Warrens maindeck if you also have multiple Chrome Moxen.

Tombstalker

08-16-2012, 12:37 PM

Koby

08-16-2012, 12:44 PM

True that maverick can win through 10-12 tokens, sometimes, but maverick can win through ridiculous things for being "just" a GW deck. Last night though 12 (14) tokens got me there against an active jitte. double FB therapy was instrumental by discarding kotr and more importantly batterskull.

Therapy is surprisingly effective against Maverick. The nice thing about decks playing Savannah is that they are now mostly uniform. You know exactly what to expect when an opponent starts with Fetch->Sav->Noble hierarch. Using CTherapy to our advantage here is the key. In most cases, I would name Thalia or GSZ(Teeg), depending on which will hurt more for the remaining turns.

I've also put together a hybrid between Streater's list, Tombstalker's list, and ideas that emidln has peppered in. Right now, I'm rocking 1 Ad Nauseam, 1 Chrome Mox, and 2 Snapcaster Mages. This has been pretty good in my (limited) testing.

Jonathan Alexander

08-16-2012, 01:10 PM

Jona- I have never played grinding station so I cant comment on that deck but did you play 4 probe and 4 therapy in your deck? These cards change everything and make maindeck EtW incredibly good. while probe makes ad nauseam worse it also makes cabal ritual, PiF, therapy and EtW so much better. EtW is completely viable turns 1-2, even turn 3 due to the heavy discard feature, although at that stage lethal tendrils is also likely online.

True that maverick can win through 10-12 tokens, sometimes, but maverick can win through ridiculous things for being "just" a GW deck. Last night though 12 (14) tokens got me there against an active jitte. double FB therapy was instrumental by discarding kotr and more importantly batterskull.

I played four Probe with three Therapy. I'm pretty sure I'd play the same disruption package in this deck. The reason Chrome Mox makes Empty Warrens better is not the storm count though, it's more about the mana. A turn one Warrens is just so much stronger than turn two.

In other news, I'm inclined to try out Bryant's new list with additional discard (likely Therapy) instead of Silence. That list looks awesome, in if there's any deck where maindeck Empty the Warrens is good, it's his.

Tombstalker

08-16-2012, 01:24 PM

Therapy is surprisingly effective against Maverick. The nice thing about decks playing Savannah is that they are now mostly uniform. You know exactly what to expect when an opponent starts with Fetch->Sav->Noble hierarch. Using CTherapy to our advantage here is the key. In most cases, I would name Thalia or GSZ(Teeg), depending on which will hurt more for the remaining turns.
Ya thats exactly what I do. In the case above I hit thalia.

I've also put together a hybrid between Streater's list, Tombstalker's list, and ideas that emidln has peppered in. Right now, I'm rocking 1 Ad Nauseam, 1 Chrome Mox, and 2 Snapcaster Mages. This has been pretty good in my (limited) testing.
Man I really like the concept of snapcasters in ANT, brings a Sith lord type of feeling to the deck but everytime I put them in Im reminded that their more rule of cool then essential. Of course this is mostly why I play anyway so nothing wrong with that and occasionally they do crazy shit plus its funny to beat someone down with a 2/1 in storm.
I think that if you are going to play snapcasters then emidln's approach is probably the way to go since in-hand snapcasters are much better and more reliable then tutoring one and it gives the vintage UB version of the deck (double mox no burning wish) some new tricks and flavor. Ive considered playing double ad naus in this style just for the double barrelled dangerous feeling. If you havent seen this report check it out, its what inspired me initially to start playing snapcasters:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23605-I-m-Bad-at-Storm.-And-it-s-funny.-(SCG-Phoenix-20th-Place)

In other news, I'm inclined to try out Bryant's new list with additional discard (likely Therapy) instead of Silence. That list looks awesome, in if there's any deck where maindeck Empty the Warrens is good, it's his.
This is what got me started on the whole EtW thing, although Bahamuth is the instigator. Problem is I hate TES's manabase and I really like cabal rits...so here I am.

Dia_Bot

08-16-2012, 01:27 PM

Koby

08-16-2012, 01:27 PM

Ah yes, Tony's list. I was there when it happened. You don't know how much I tried to dissuade him from playing Delver in the sideboard. It was an awful idea.

Koby

08-16-2012, 01:36 PM

@ Tombstalker:
All this discussion about maindeck Etw made me think about an old list I played 2 years ago: 3C TES.
I looked the list up I played back then and realized it played 4 'high' casting cost spells and still had the best Ad Nauseams.

Anyway, this is what I played back then:

Lands (14)
1 Badlands
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame

2 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize
4 Duress

I'm wondering if it would be a good idea changing Cabal ritual to rite of flame.
The reason cabal was so good was because it was playing in conjunction with Grim tutor in a heavy black list.
when we moved away from those lists by playing Burning wish and going heavier in red I think it might be okay to change back to rite of flame.

I'm thinking of something like this:

1 Badlands
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

1 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame

1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
3 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress

EDIT: just read you really like Cabal ritual :)

This may or may not be 97% of what Liam Kane proposed as 'TNT' about this time last year.

EDIT: Found it: (Pre-PIF)

BONUS:

Here is my current TNT list:

Main Deck
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Burning Wish
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Preordain
4 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Ill-gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Swamp

Sideboard
1 Thoughtseize
2 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Wipe Away
3 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-gotten Gains
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Meltdown
1 Pyroclasm
3 Dark Confidant

So far it has been decent, still not sold on the Bobs.

Tombstalker

08-16-2012, 01:41 PM

Ya the delver idea was pretty bad, rest was novel though. I was trying without success for awhile to mix TES and ANT, the biggest issue I had besides manabase was RoF being sorcery speed. I hate that. Plus CR rocks so quickly now.

Tombstalker

08-16-2012, 01:55 PM

@ Tombstalker:
All this discussion about maindeck Etw made me think about an old list I played 2 years ago: 3C TES.
I looked the list up I played back then and realized it played 4 'high' casting cost spells and still had the best Ad Nauseams.
Actually I have never played with 4 high cc cards maybe its not as bad as I suspect, will try it (with 2 mox). Thanks man.

OurSerratedDust

08-18-2012, 04:12 PM

lordofthepit

08-18-2012, 04:14 PM

Two questions. What's up with Confidant? I thought the general consensus is that he is bad. Also, don't you have issues with Thalia g1? The only way I can see of getting rid of her once she hits the board is Snapcaster blocking.

That might not work so well...

OurSerratedDust

08-18-2012, 08:31 PM

That might not work so well...

Hahah, damn. Good call.

Tombstalker

08-19-2012, 02:13 PM

So after more playing and testing im convinced EtW is definitely the wincon I want main. Tendrils sucks when drawn naturaly 99% of the time, while the only time EtW really isnt good is against miracle control and sometimes therapies fix that (g1 I wont keep EtW in after that).

Still not sure how much worse ad nauseam becomes without tendrils in the main since I havent really found a way to quantify that. Does anyone here have a way to show how good ad nauseam is with tendrils main as opposed to tendrils only in the side? Id be very interested in how much it affects the win percentage.

lambert101

08-19-2012, 03:07 PM

Ad Nauseam is still a tank. Since you run burning wish you can still nab tendrils from your board. Is your lists the same still?

Tombstalker

08-19-2012, 05:31 PM

My list is the same as yours from 2 pages back -1 mox -1 tendrils, +1 PiF +1 probe. Board looks like this:

4 dread of night
2 echoing truth
2 gilded drake
1 extirpate
2 surgical extraction
1 infest
1 tendrils of agony
1 empty the warrens
1 shattering spree

I think full wishboards are usually overkill so I prefer straight up sideboard options with a few essential wish targets; 1 sweeper (g1 hatebears and tribal), both wincons, artifact removal. Im pretty much completely satisfied with this setup although a couple cards for RUG delver would be nice but not necessary for now. Ive recently seen some delver decks packing 2-3 bonfire of the damned instead of forked bolts which I thought was pretty techy.

thefringthing

08-19-2012, 10:09 PM

Not sold on Bobs in the sideboard as long as RUG Delver is a deck. They don't side out Bolts.

emidln

08-20-2012, 09:36 AM

Dark Confidant has always been about edging out other combo decks and midrange decks, not tempo or control. Tempo decks traditionally have ways of dealing with them that they wouldn't normally side out (Lightning Bolt, Maelstrom Pulse, Pernicious Deed) while control has too many removal spells to actually side out.

About G1 vs Thalia:

(a) this card doesn't actually say "storm player loses the game". It's close, but with some luck to draw some rituals (particularly LEDs, which you can pre-buy), you can still win with on-board Thalia.
(b) You can Probe->Therapy her on the draw, and you've actually at a very high percentage to kill on turn 2 if you don't worry about Force of Will.
(c) Outside of DDFT (which maindecks some number of Karakas AND Chain of Vapor AND Burning Wish->Massacre), legacy storm decks have the following plans:

1) miser's Chain of Vapor
2) Burning Wish->something (and I'll be up front when I say that something is 100% irrelevant to turn 2 Thalia if not Massacre, Chain Lightning*, or Deathmark)
3) Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy
4) Race

* Requires basic Mountain.

(1) isn't super common anymore.
(2) is really unlikely to succeed. Most storm decks are super short on actual lands, which means Wish->anything that costs more than 1 is a pipe dream) vs Maverick. Red stuff is a pipe dream without basic Mountain and anything black outside of Deathmark and Massacre (which each have their own faults, but are fine for solving Thalia) costs way too much mana.
(3) This is reasonable. Most people play Thoughtseize or Therapy, but not both due to Probe + Seize causing a lot of lifeloss to the point that Ad Naus is often sketchy.
(4) This is what basically everyone who doesn't get lucky on Thoughtseize or Therapy does. Decks like Belcher, SI, and TES are slightly better at it because they are a bit faster.

I'm firmly in the (3) and (4) camps with Thalia in G1. G2, I side in 3 Karakas, some Chain of Vapors, and have 18 lands (including 4 basics) with which to cast my 3 Virtue's Ruin as well.

I'd add in that if you play with Silences/Chants, you should definitely be maindecking at least 1 Karakas. Nobody does this outside of Doomsday, and even without top to spin, it's amazing being able to deal with the two most common hate bears, fatties, and still tap for Silence/colorless.

Tombstalker

08-20-2012, 06:44 PM

Discarding then racing is the best plan for us g1 against Mav and ill add that EtW is a great early option too. Wishing into a sweeper isn't optimal but it can get you there sometimes with a preemptive wish, pre buying petals etc. Its not always pretty but options are sometimes limited g1 and a multi purpose sweeper is a good general use wish target to have against tribal as well.

apistat_commander

08-22-2012, 10:51 AM

I am trying to build a board for my local meta. We have lots of Stoneblade, Elves, Maverick, D and T, B/W Stoneblade, and Sneak/Show. No GY based decks. I run a fairly standard UBr list 15 land, 4 Duress/3 Therapy, etc. Here is what I am trying currently:

1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Echoing Truth
2 Deathmark
1 Pyroclasm
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
1 Meltdown

I make the most changes for Maverick, swapping in 8 cards (Probe/Duress out for Inquisition, Truth, and Deathmark). I would like to board in something extra for Stoneblade and other blue decks, because I typically just cut a Ponder and a Probe to bring in 2 Inquisitions. I feel like my SB could be better configured but I don't know where to begin.

Tombstalker

08-22-2012, 11:53 AM

apistat_commander
I am trying to build a board for my local meta. We have lots of Stoneblade, Elves, Maverick, D and T, B/W Stoneblade, and Sneak/Show. No GY based decks. I run a fairly standard UBr list 15 land, 4 Duress/3 Therapy, etc. Here is what I am trying currently:

1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Echoing Truth
2 Deathmark
1 Pyroclasm
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
1 Meltdown

I make the most changes for Maverick, swapping in 8 cards (Probe/Duress out for Inquisition, Truth, and Deathmark). I would like to board in something extra for Stoneblade and other blue decks, because I typically just cut a Ponder and a Probe to bring in 2 Inquisitions. I feel like my SB could be better configured but I don't know where to begin.
With no grave decks you should have plenty of room for options. First I would cut the non essential cards like IGG, 2 (or more) IoK, 1 deathmark and meltdown. Consider the 4th therapy main over the 4th duress since it seems better for your environment. The others can be replaced with better hate for maverick/D&T/SnS and even emrakul elves in the form of 2-3 karakas. If you dont have these like many of us then a more narrow budget answer is 4 dread of night against hatebears/moms/souls tokens and they keep your clasms and deathmark relevent. Ive been pleased with this alternative. Ya a single DoN dies to QPM and such but a mini sweeper for B that they then have to trade a card for and spend GW or GSZ into plus activation is worth the trade IMO. 2 DoN is usually game. Anyway..

Im assuming by stoneblade you mean no countertop right? If so and you dont see much CotV then consider making echoing truth into chain of vapor, although e.truth is slightly better against elves/souls so theres that to consider. For blue decks the second PiF is great and against non terminus/top decks EtW + probe-therapy is usually game. Pithing needle/revokers seem great against your meta btw, hitting most of those decks above pretty hard. Defense grid might be worthwhile against blue too although in testing I wasnt always impressed with it, mostly I just didnt find it necessary vs countermagic but ymmv. Maybe try something like this:

3 karakas
2 Echoing Truth/cov
2 Pyroclasm
2 pithing needle
1 phyrexian revoker
1 Deathmark
1 Thoughtseize
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony

Theres alot of functional overlap in your board against those specific decks so you should see some changes in your matchups, I believe.

Dark Ritual

08-22-2012, 01:44 PM

Why aren't you boarding dread of night for the maverick matchup? That card destroys them with ease typically as they can't go mom into thalia and have it be GG's due to bounce not working when they do that. Or at least include karakas instead, as karakas goes through the mom + hatebear lock typically unless that hatebear is canonist but canonist isn't seen in big numbers nowadays as maverick relies almost completely on thalia and teeg along with GSZ for teeg.

I wouldn't run both IGG and PiF in the board. Choose one or the other. Personally I run IGG in that slot as it's nice to have although PiF is sometimes better it's really just personal preference unless your entire metagame is a bunch of blue at which point I would be running PiF as IGG is pretty bad against them.

JamieW89

08-22-2012, 04:32 PM

@IGG/PiF
I like running PiF main and IGG side in UBr ANT. Wishing for IGG happens with hands like LED,LED,IT,BW (R1 mana investment and ends up with 9 spells from just these cards so you need another spell or them at 18, you also don't need tendrils main to do this.) which would otherwise require you to roll the die with Ad Nauseam.
Playing one main and one side also allows you to switch engines postboard (f.e. boarding in IGG over PiF against aggro) which I like.

It can be awkward when you're playing against a blue deck with disruption in the yard and you need to go off through wish but goblin tokens are usually fine against those decks anyways.

@Karakas
I like the card MD in combo decks which can actually use the mana. But I'm a bit hesitant to play them in UBr.

apistat_commander

08-22-2012, 05:40 PM

- Karakas works in TES because you want to cast white spells. I am hesitant to include a colorless land that would make me weaker to Wasteland just to bounce hatebears.

- There are randomly decks running CotV in my meta hence Echoing Truth over Chain of Vapor. I could probably split that.

- What exactly am I using Revoker/Needle for? It doesn't seem to stop any relevant hate.

- I wasn't a huge fan of Dread of Night (it is a house against Maverick) because it isn't that great against other decks.

So say I cut some of the chaff, and I am left with this:

1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Echoing Truth
1 Deathmark
1 Pyroclasm
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize

So I have 5 slots to play with. I can just jam 4 Dread of Night in there but I still have another slot. Maybe Pyroblast? I like the card a lot but I found that anytime I wanted to board it in, I also wanted to bring in Inquisition. They both hit the same cards, but Inquisition has better synergy with Therapy. I would like something to improve my blue MU, especially in situations where they are attacking my yard with SCM + Extraction, making winning via PiF harder.

lordofthepit

08-22-2012, 06:09 PM

- Karakas works in TES because you want to cast white spells. I am hesitant to include a colorless land that would make me weaker to Wasteland just to bounce hatebears.

Wouldn't you board out your chant effects against hatebears?

On the other hand, Karakas is good against Reanimator and Sneak Attack, and you might certainly keep your chant effects against those decks.

Tombstalker

08-22-2012, 10:25 PM

- Karakas works in TES because you want to cast white spells. I am hesitant to include a colorless land that would make me weaker to Wasteland just to bounce hatebears.
Karakas also works in any deck because its a "free" reusable uncounterable bounce spell. If I owned more and my wife didnt miser mine then I would be using em too. 3 of these is great against maverick, sneak and show plus Im assuming the D&T you face runs hatebears and elves likely runs emrakul. Board them in place of cards like duress. That being said Ive been very happy with dread of night in lieu of.

- There are randomly decks running CotV in my meta hence Echoing Truth over Chain of Vapor. I could probably split that.
Fair enough, same reason I run truths over CoV.

- What exactly am I using Revoker/Needle for? It doesn't seem to stop any relevant hate.
Off the top of my head and from the decks you listed they disrupt senseis top, jtms, aether vial, wasteland, SFM, jitte, all of maverick, sneak attack and griselbargain. Not saying needles would be stellar since I havent tried them recently but in theory they seem pretty good since most of these cards tend to give us problems. Just a thought but maybe im mistaken. I havent really found anything that great against blue but against these decks I usually go for the EtW plan which excels except vs terminus with top in play.

- I wasn't a huge fan of Dread of Night (it is a house against Maverick) because it isn't that great against other decks.
This is why I suggested karakas but theres nothing wrong with DoN since hatebears are one of if not the biggest headache for us.

I would like something to improve my blue MU, especially in situations where they are attacking my yard with SCM + Extraction, making winning via PiF harder.
The miracled match (if thats what you face) is hard.
If they arent playing terminus then EtW main wins when cast t1-2 and
SFM-> batterskull wont save them because therapy cancels it. If they are playing terminus then they are also likely playing countertop, in which case your plan to board extra discard is ok but eventually they will still grind us out and I hate when hard counters come online for them. This is why I try to take their top/BS then drop tokens and race. That usually gets me there but I wont try it with a top in play. Otherwise ill aim for a quick ad nauseam (one of the times im very happy to still be playing this card).

Anyway if you find some good tech for miracles and RUG id be interested.

lambert101

08-23-2012, 04:59 PM

Saw the list that Dia_Bot posted and like the looks of it. Did some small changes and posted a side board. Let me know what you think.

Main:
1 Badlands
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

1 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame

1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
3 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress

Side:
4 Dread of night
2 Echoing truth
2 Gilded drake
3 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Infest
1 Tendrils of agony
1 Empty the warrens
1 Shattering Spree

Tombstalker

08-23-2012, 07:10 PM

lambert101- that is my exact list except different grave hate and CRs over RoF. I just cant get over RoF being sorcery speed vs. instant CRs having threshold after t1 usually. I guess its a personal thing. That being said I really like your version.

Dark Ritual

08-23-2012, 07:18 PM

I wouldn't cut the maindeck tendrils for EtW in this particular deck. That can bottleneck you unnecessarily when you're going to attempt to combo and find yourself 2 mana short of IT -> wish -> tendrils for the instant win. I know that if I had swapped in EtW for the maindeck ToA at KC I would have had some sticky situations come up where I don't instantly win with tendrils and am then foiled by batterskull or some other anti EtW tech like terminus. Also don't want to let my opponent get another draw, as that could cause my demise.

If you're naming jace with needle/revoker you're doing something wrong. My instant name if needle/revoker resolved would be sensei's divining top, as that's the only place where I would bring in needle/revoker. Still don't see the point of that boarding plan. You can simply bring in pyroblast instead as countering CB itself on their turn 2 will probably win you the game. Pyroblast can also sometimes answer a resolved counterbalance since instant speed cards are infinitely better against counterbalance than sorcery speed ones like needle. And I'd rather be rid of counterbalance completely than lose because my opponent blind flips a 2 drop when I attempt to combo with IT/BW.

On karakas over DoN in the board. I can support that change assuming you have an answer for canonist in the wishboard like pulverize or something as karakas doesn't answer canonist unfortunately. However it's priceless when you play karakas from hand, bounce their hatebear, then proceed to go off. The card is also quite good against reanimator although against griselbrand it isn't the best as the opponent drawing 7 cards usually means game over unless they hit some pretty bad cards. The only advantage we get from the opponent drawing 7 or 14 cards is if we have the lone tendrils in hand and they let us resolve dark rit/cabal rit and achieve lethal storm hoping to counter wish/tutor while we proceed to tendrils them from hand for presumably lethal as 2 storm + tendrils is trivial to produce with this deck typically. Although producing 3 storm as insurance might be necessary if they didn't fetch/are at 6 as FoW stops dark rit x2 into tendrils leaving the opponent at 1. Although karakas is still quite good against them as they typically have almost all legendary creatures, making it difficult for them to win the game unless they needle karakas and get a fatty to stick.

lambert101

08-23-2012, 10:32 PM

I am still unsure about Rite of Flame over Cabal Ritual. I like the instant speed of Cabal Ritual but the casting cost of two is what turns me away. Rite of Flame is Cheaper, can still produce more mana late game if more are in graveyard. If I do switch to Cabal Ritual I will switch the Shattering Spree in side to a Meltdown. I feel my 3 color AnT lists is very close to Liam Kane's TnT list. The idea was putting the speed of T.E.S. in the stable mana base of AnT. I may be trying to do too much.

aaronm678

08-23-2012, 10:47 PM

So I tested Snapcaster a lot (probably 40-50 matches or so), and I think I've decided I'm not a huge fan. Most of my playtesting has just been on MTGO or in 8-12 person local tournaments, if that's relevant.

It is good against controlley decks (mostly U/W of sort, also against U/B/x or whatever), but it's a little too slow against most other things (even against RUG, I usually don't want to spend 3 mana on a duress or a ponder or whatever). So, I don't think it really belongs in the maindeck, and I don't think it's good enough against controlley decks to warrant a specific sideboard slot.

Also, on Rite of Flame vs Cabal Ritual, they really do lead to completely different decks. Rite of Flame is a much faster card, Cabal Rit is much more powerful after turn 3+. If your deck is built to regularly go off before turn 3, you probably shouldn't be running cabal rit.

Dark Ritual

08-24-2012, 12:51 AM

Didn't notice the rite of flame over cabal rit. In this decktype I vastly prefer cabal ritual. When you have multiple cabal rit's and they are all threshed, it is a very great feeling. Also of note is that having rituals in multiple colors can muck up past in flames. I, for one, like being able to resolve PiF with just black mana floating instead of black and red mana floating. Also of note, cabal rit is almost LED 5-8 in this deck. I almost always like the card when I draw it as when I go off on turn 3 I almost always have threshold/cabal rit is a champion. I wouldn't ever cut it for rite of flame in here. Rite of flame is for TES because TES has a maindeck EtW now and they have a lot more cards to use with red mana as well as a radically different manabase as well as chrome mox.

If meltdown doesn't peform for you you could try pulverize, the other artifact destruction option. Being free has its advantages while meltdown not being free can potentially cost you the game i.e. you meltdown and have to pass the turn due to insufficient resources to go off and then the opponent goes ahead and drops another 3sphere/chalice/annoying hatepiece and you die a little inside.

Tombstalker

08-24-2012, 11:22 AM

Ive also tried liam's TNT list and various other mashups looking for the middle ground but in the end I came to the same conclusion that most people here already knew and advised me of; that CR is just better than RoF for ANT.

I wouldn't cut the maindeck tendrils for EtW in this particular deck. That can bottleneck you unnecessarily when you're going to attempt to combo and find yourself 2 mana short of IT -> wish -> tendrils for the instant win. I know that if I had swapped in EtW for the maindeck ToA at KC I would have had some sticky situations come up where I don't instantly win with tendrils and am then foiled by batterskull or some other anti EtW tech like terminus. Also don't want to let my opponent get another draw, as that could cause my demise.
The reason I choose to cut tendrils is EtW is amazing as a short storm option so I want to maximize access to it from t1 off 4 mana instead of 5-8 mana where I will almost always opt for ad nauseam or PiF anyway.

Way I see it I went from these options: 5+ mana- ad nauseam, 6+ mana- EtW/PiF
to these options: 4+ mana- EtW, 5+ mana- ad nauseam, 6+ mana EtW/PiF

The cost is g1 I incur a relatively narrow and often irrelevant drawback. I also avoiding drawing tendrils in my opener which I almost always hate as opposed to opening with EtW which almost always rocks.

Ya batterskull/terminus suck but they are pretty much limited to 1-2 archtypes and here I agree EtW isnt great although batterskull is mostly a non issue due to discard and they wont be hardcasting BS in time. Most other decks not packing maindeck terminus/elesh norn dont really have a timely answer to 10+ tokens. Dont get me wrong man I love tendrils though.

“[Tendrils] is the weapon of a Jedi Knight. Not as clumsy or as random as [EtW], but a more elegant weapon for a more...civilized age. Before the dark times, before [RUG delver].”

lambert101

08-24-2012, 12:25 PM

I have switched the Rite of Flames for Cabal Rituals and the Shattering Spree for Meltdown. My lists is now Tombstalkers main. I was thinking about cutting 2 Gilded Drake for 2 Karakas in the board.

Shimi

08-24-2012, 12:54 PM

For the people who are playing with a UBr list( similar to Timo -GP Ghent) , how good is the Grim Tutor at SB? It is actually good or just a "necessary evil" ??

Thx.

MTG Junkie

08-24-2012, 01:00 PM

Grim Tutor is really good in the side. Iv been playing 1 even before GP Ghent.

Rampart

08-24-2012, 01:31 PM

Shimi

For the people who are playing with a UBr list( similar to Timo -GP Ghent) , how good is the Grim Tutor at SB? It is actually good or just a "necessary evil" ??

Thx.

Its one of those cards that is really nice to have, but not necessary. I wouldn't go out of my way to obtain one unless you are really invested into playing ANT for a long duration of time. I have one in my side board and use it all the time.

ThomasDowd

08-24-2012, 10:06 PM

I'm glad people are finally realizing how absurd Past in Flames is. I cannot sing that cards praises enough.

THERAPY/PROBE or PREORDAIN/THOUGHTSEIZE
is everyone pretty much in the probe/ therapy camp now instead of preordain/thoughtseize? and can someone give me their arguments as to why I have my arguments in my head and my reasons I prefer, but just want someone else's opinions to help challenge mine and give a fresh set of eyes looking at it.

Dread of night:
I do not think dread of night is worthwhile in sideboards versus maverick, the main enemy is thalia/ GSZ, and you need two to negate the zenith targets that beat them (pridemage, teeg). I think just beating them fast is probably fine and having your wish target sweeper of choice be massacre(if on BW), since one teeg main plus 4 GSZ gives all your discard the ability to stop teeg unless they mise it. also burning 4 sideboard slots on something very narrow. (also increases the accuracy of your therapies, if that is your discard of choice, since you will almost always be naming GSZ)

IT/ BW or Grim/ IT
I think BW/IT is the way to go since it gives you some slightly better sideboard options but also think if you go this route you need a tutor in the side either grim or IT. I personally like playing the 4th IT in the side to keep the BW> IT > PiF chain open, it is also less mana/life intense than grim.

Tombstalker

08-24-2012, 10:52 PM

Ya past in flames is nuts I actually cut it once...but I blame the crack. Thing with dread of night is its a one mana sweeper that ignores mom. Anything more like double dread is just gravy.

I don't own grims but ill take a shot at probe therapy. Thoughtseize is more versatile as discard goes, preordain gives better selection then probe. Thing is those cards cost mana. Probes are free .5 discards that turn therapies into thoughtseize chants. Add empty the warrens and therapies are free. Add past in flames and you barely need rituals to storm 10.

Only joking on the crack

Dark Ritual

08-25-2012, 01:51 AM

PiF is indeed insane. Flashbacking stuff is fun especially when you're playing against blue where you grind it out typically unless they have a poor to mediocre draw.

On probe/therapy against preordain/thoughtseize. I like probe/therapy a whole lot more as it speeds the deck up quite a bit to have a 2 life cantrip versus a one blue cantrip and when therapy knocks out multiple cards with one blow it is a great feeling.

If you don't want a narrow sideboard slot in the form of dread of night I suggest karakas. The card answers almost all of the hatebears in the format sans canonist. While also being quite potent against reanimator and ok against sneak and show.

Also of note, thoughtseize's lifeloss was pretty annoying in my eyes. If you ran seize as well as probe for example, ad nauseam becomes significantly worse as losing 4 life from just casting spells before ad nauseam is painful. And don't get me started on hardcasting probe, as in order to do that you have to have basically nothing in your hand of relevance and if that is the case you're probably dead.

I don't like the idea of having just massacre as an out to teeg. I'd much rather have pyroclasm or virtue's ruin instead, as being locked out under a teeg is the nut low with this deck. Also don't like the "win before they drop it" option as this deck isn't particularly fast and if you're on the draw you literally have 1 turn to combo out, 2 if you're incredibly lucky as the opponent is likely going to drop a turn 2 thalia/teeg since they run 8-9 copies of those cards postboard (3-4 thalia, 1 teeg, 4 GSZ.)

If you can turn 1 ad nauseam go for it. I know that every time I can go turn 1 ad nauseam I do so unless I'm facing a blue deck on the draw as that means that they likely have spell pierce/FoW/brainstorm into FoW. On the play though you all know the odds (60% chance to win 40% chance to lose.)

Grim tutor in the SB is quite nice. It's a little slow, but it often sets up a turn 3 or 4 combo attempt unless it's some grindy blue matchup. Not having it will sometimes lose you the game though as it opens up quite a lot of lines of play.

thefringthing

08-25-2012, 04:26 AM

Any thoughts on multiple (I'm thinking three) Chrome Mox in the sideboard as a way to speed up against decks you just want to kill quickly?

ThomasDowd

08-25-2012, 04:37 AM

also are you guys on 13/14/15/16 lands? I have been on 15 with a chrome mox.

my tutor split has been 4 BW/3IT. any suggestions either way? my build has been pretty good for me I am just trying to shake things up and see if I like things any differently.

and on split of therapy probe are you guys going 4probe/3therapy/ 3 duress or 4? I hated the 4th probe when I tried it a few times. I think i will be giving it another go though soon. I also never ran seize and probe i link together probe and therapy and preordain and seize into groups since the life loss from both seize and probe is pretty rough. thinking about it now i may switch since often my preordains do not do very much selecting, but having selection is nice. but i can see the probes speeding things up (less mana)

agree on C rit over rite of flame due to waiting with this deck.

blind therapy almost always names GSZ or force, yes?

Don't think I can acquire multiple karakas's, and people play canonist against me so I need to deal with it. will probably work on a wish board in more depth int he next few days. is meltdown relevant?, do people play MUD/ spheres any more? or do you guys just hope to dodge? and is the wave of reanimator/dredge gone for now? is grave hate necessary?

I realize a lot of the last paragraph is local, but I was just curious about larger trends.

ThomasDowd

08-25-2012, 04:40 AM

Any thoughts on multiple (I'm thinking three) Chrome Mox in the sideboard as a way to speed up against decks you just want to kill quickly?

I used to play one main and one board, it was ok. the few times I did it was kind of awesome having more outs with an AN, but it had definitely failed me once which was frustrating. It gave me something absurd like 9-10 outs from when I was at approx 8 when I had other pieces to finish the job in my flop.

I am a supporter but do not know where to make the room.

apistat_commander

08-25-2012, 11:25 AM

and on split of therapy probe are you guys going 4probe/3therapy/ 3 duress or 4? I hated the 4th probe when I tried it a few times. I think i will be giving it another go though soon. I also never ran seize and probe i link together probe and therapy and preordain and seize into groups since the life loss from both seize and probe is pretty rough. thinking about it now i may switch since often my preordains do not do very much selecting, but having selection is nice. but i can see the probes speeding things up (less mana)

I like 4 Probe/4 Duress/3 Therapy. I think that set up gives you the best game against blue decks G1. I don't think Therapy is a great card (in this deck), it is just a necessary evil in order to run 4 Probes.

Tombstalker

08-25-2012, 12:01 PM

These are the current trends:

14 lands/ 1 mox
3-4 cabal therapy (blind therapy is FoW/thalia id say, I try to cantrip first. With 11 peak effects blind doesnt happen all that often tbh)
3-4 duress
4 probe (replace preordain, miles ahead of preordain man)
4 IT/ 3 BW

ThomasDowd- you helped me into this archtype so none of this is news to you im sure but IMO in the grand scheme of things, I think chalice/sphere decks are actually brewing, sneak attack is waning, reanimator and dredge are always lurking. The big change is tribal is back in force plus the usuals like RUG and maverick are still here too with the latest power being miracleblade. I would guess that counterbalance is declining and sweepers are becoming more relevant.

My local meta doesnt shift that quickly though and id guess most other peoples dont either unless they frequent very large tourneys. Right now I maindeck EtW over tendrils but if my group catches up to the web then I will have to revert back.

Anyway at any given time my board consists of 10-11 cards to bring in and only 4-5 essential wish targets (2 wincons, 1 artifact sweeper, 1 creature sweeper). I face MUD so I prefer shattering spree, its also why I like gilded drakes for MUD/SnS/reanimator, nothing like stealing a wurmcoil engine echoing truth the drake then stealing another beatstick. Anyway my sweeper is currently infest but may become pyroclasm.
Karakas vs. DoN I run 4 dreads and with sneak attack falling out of favor DoN is better depending on your local environment, recently it seemed everyone and their dog was running karakas, at least on the web.

Thats what I got.

aaronm678

08-25-2012, 12:46 PM

I run 3 Chrome Mox and a 2nd Ad Naus in my SB, and it's been excellent. I also have quite a bit more SB space, as I don't run BW, and my maindeck is kinda clunky, as I run 16-17 land usually (I hate losing to RUG)

RE: blind therapy - against a blue deck, the only time I could see casting a blind therapy is if you were going to kill them that turn, and probably only if they're tapped out (in which case Force is obviously the right call)

Dark Ritual

08-25-2012, 12:46 PM

For blind therapy I almost always name FoW if I don't know the deck my opponent is on. Then again I usually sculpt before casting discard, as it is better to cast discard later unless my opponent is on the maverick/hatebear plan. If I know I'm against maverick and they didn't go turn 1 GSZ for arbor or turn 1 noble hierarch I will name thalia. If they do go turn 1 GSZ I'll probably name thalia. If they go turn 1 noble I'm probably naming green sun's zenith.

I'm not a fan of boarding in more chrome moxen just so you can maybe goldfish faster as that is a very risky plan versus just boarding in anti hate. I have no room in my sideboard really for them either.

I'm playing the GP Ghent list -1 IoK -1 Chrome Mox +2 Duress. So I'm playing just 14 land really. But chrome mox is pretty bad hence the reason for cutting it.

I run 3 Wish 4 Infernal tutor. Drawing multiple wishes is generally pretty bad especially when we simply splash for the card. I can't count the number of times I've drawn BW and wish it had been infernal tutor no pun intended.

ReinVos

08-28-2012, 09:00 AM

I'm looking for some advice. I'm playing a UBr list with a small red splash just for Past in Flames (2 Grim tutors next to the Infernals). I'm aware that I'm giving up the flexibility that Burning Wish offers but this version has a nice linear gameplan and very consistently goes off when not faced with early hatebears or stuff like Chalice.

I'd like to improve my game one percentages against Maverick because I hate dying to Thalia or Teeg when I don't yet have access to bounce or removal in my deck.

I'm thinking of cutting some lands to play some number of Chrome Moxen to speed up the deck a little bit, which I can then board out for Karakas to raise the mana consistency while at the same time having an answer to problematic hatebears.

I'm also considering playing a miser's Chain of Vapor but it seems clunky to have to Grim Tutor for it when I don't find it through cantrips.

I could also design my sideboard in a way to have much better chances post board, but that could cost me matches against other archetypes.

What do you guys recommend I'd do?

Tombstalker

08-28-2012, 10:40 AM

What is your protection package? You could try squeezing one maybe two IoK to hedge the match just slightly, maybe 3/3/2 therapy/duress/IoK or 4/3/1. I dont own grims or I would feel obligated to play them but even with BW the g1 match is a crapshoot sometimes tbh.
The misers chain of vapor for teeg is probably your best option since you can go off through thalia, its just much harder. I would consider CoV before additional moxen though especially since thalia makes mox cost 1 anyway, plus multiples are usually crap.

Edit- as for the SB I dont see how we can get away without designing our board for hatebears. I bring in 6 cards plus wish targets.

emidln

08-28-2012, 11:12 AM

Miser Karakas > Miser Chain of Vapor:

- Karakas can't be stopped by Mother of Runes
- Karakas doesn't cost mana to use

The only downside is that it can't stop Canonist, which shouldn't be an issue in g1 when you are facing down 3-4x Thalia, 1x Gaddock Teeg, and 4x 2G Gaddock Teeg.

ReinVos

08-28-2012, 11:53 AM

Good call, emidln, I'll give the miser Karakas a shot. Should work much better with Grim Tutor, saves me some mana/time, and the fact that it dodges Mother is very relevant.

My protection package is currently 4 Duress and 4 Therapy (used to be 3, love to blindcall Thalia).

Tombstalker

08-28-2012, 12:07 PM

emidln
Miser Karakas > Miser Chain of Vapor
Boom! Ya very nice call.

lambert101

08-28-2012, 12:20 PM

Planning on running at Juipter games next NELC. Any boarding tips? Expecting RUG, Mav, stone blade, and combo.

Also how are we beating Miracle Control?

Tombstalker

08-28-2012, 06:52 PM

Also how are we beating Miracle Control?
Win the dice roll and try to go off before clique and hard counters are active. Dark Ritual recently brought up pyroblast which might be worthwhile against countertop and jace, even clique since this deck is pretty rough if you dont win early. Luckily if enough tribal is around CB might not be maindeck, the rest will. Also if you are still on the EtW plan this is THE deck it sucks most against. Also I have tried a couple extractions from the side and sometimes they hit big sometimes they dont, but taking FoW or top and extracting it is usually enough to swing a game.

lambert101

08-28-2012, 07:42 PM

@ Tombstalker

Ya i have settled on your list. My newest board consists of the following

4 Dread of Night
3 Extirpate
1 Meltdown
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Echoing Truth
1 Pyroclasm
1 Tendrils of Agony

My strategy for miracles is:
- 1 Chrome Mox
- 1 Infernal Tutor

+ 2 Inquisition of Kozilek

It can be a grindy game.

Edit: Read Dark Ritual's tournament report and may take his advice and cut the Chrome Mox for a single Duress.

Tombstalker

08-28-2012, 08:17 PM

Sweet good luck to you. I kinda like the idea of losing the mox for discard actually. I wouldnt side out the tutor though man, EtW would be better or even probe. EtW can get you there early but not if they have brainstorm or top. Also why not bring in echoing truths? Its useful against both token types (angel/germ) and jtms but more importantly you can bait with a 1cc spell to test CB then either bounce it for discarding and/or if the coast is clear go off.

aaronm678

08-29-2012, 08:01 AM

Also how are we beating Miracle Control?

Anyone have any ideas on this? I'm considering going back to running DDays and Emrakul in my sb. I've played this matchup a lot, with various configurations, and I don't think I've taken a match.

The deck puts us in an awkward place where we need to be hyper aggressive and try to go off before turn 3, but they run a bunch of spell pierce and FoW, so it's easy for them to stop it.

Lejay

08-29-2012, 09:15 AM

Using 6 sideboard slots for almost only 1 match-up is a bad idea. The UW miracle with CB is built to crush combo and you should just accept loosing to it and tune your 75 to beat all the other decks reliably. If miracle is heavily played in your metagame just build another deck, it will be much more effective.

Tombstalker

08-29-2012, 10:07 AM

Using 6 sideboard slots for almost only 1 match-up is a bad idea.
How is that a bad idea when hatebears are some of the strongest hate out there barring chalice 3sphere and counterbalance? Postboard I see full thalias double teegs mindcensors and canonists. Anyone who boards less than 4 DoN against that and claims a high win percentage must be real lucky.
The 6 slots I spoke of are 2 echoing truths and 4 dread of night. Pretty standard SB cards and obviously echoing truth isnt just for 1 matchup. They just happen to be far better against mav then what I take out (3 duress/3 probe).

Maybe my approach is different than better players but I prefer to try and hate HARD against a few decks that really give me problems rather then hedge every deck just a little.

lambert101

08-29-2012, 10:15 AM

Did some testing last night and have to say Empty the Warrens is amazing against RUG. I also have to say that the 3 Extripates in my board where terrible. I am going to try Pyroblast in that spot bringing my board to:

4 Dread of Night
3 Pyroblast
1 Meltdown
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Echoing Truth
1 Pyroclasm
1 Tendrils of Agony

Effectively I could bring in
+ 3 Pyroblast
+ 2 Inquisition of Kozilek
+ 2 Echoing Truth

So 7 cards against Miracles, Stoneblade, Sneak and Show, and Reanimator.

I am having a hard time deciding what to take out. The list I am running is Tombstalkers - 1 Chrome Mox, + 1 Duress,

Lejay

08-29-2012, 11:26 AM

How is that a bad idea when hatebears are some of the strongest hate out there barring chalice 3sphere and counterbalance? Postboard I see full thalias double teegs mindcensors and canonists. Anyone who boards less than 4 DoN against that and claims a high win percentage must be real lucky.
The 6 slots I spoke of are 2 echoing truths and 4 dread of night. Pretty standard SB cards and obviously echoing truth isnt just for 1 matchup. They just happen to be far better against mav then what I take out (3 duress/3 probe).

Maybe my approach is different than better players but I prefer to try and hate HARD against a few decks that really give me problems rather then hedge every deck just a little.
Considering the time you spend on this forum you should probably read more carefully people's posts, even when they are as long as 2.5 lines. I wasn't answering to you.

Tammit67

08-29-2012, 12:32 PM

Also how are we beating Miracle Control?

I'm currently looking at running 2 wipeaway in the board, but nothing more than that. Considering Confidant again, although the time might not be good.

Would any of you consider moving the second tendrils main after boarding against miracles? It has worked for me previously.

lambert101

08-29-2012, 12:47 PM

Against miracles, I am planning for a grindy game with discard and holding LEDs back to use pyroblast. I think Cabal Ritual helps this idea by giving huge amounts of mana.

As for the tendrils idea, I only play 1 in my 75. In this match-up I side out my empty the Warrens and bring in Tendrils of Agony. Their is always a chance when the have and active Counterbalance to use Past in Flames with Cabal Rituals to chain for a Tendrils in hand then again from the yard.

Tammit67

08-29-2012, 12:58 PM

Not having a tendrils main seems greedy to me. You are forced to have double red and +2 mana on PiF chains. Has it been worth it for you?

Rampart

08-29-2012, 01:54 PM

I have put an extra TOA into my sideboard for the Countertop matchups.

for the dedicated miracle countertop matchup, I side into two main deck tendrils one is the sideboard and try to grind the game out as much as possible. I have found that this works the best for me.

For the Stoneblade decks that may or may not sideboard into the countertop package, I just try and kill them as fast as possible, as you cannot grind the skull and the soft lock most of the time.

Tombstalker

08-29-2012, 01:59 PM

Considering the time you spend on this forum you should probably read more carefully people's posts, even when they are as long as 2.5 lines. I wasn't answering to you.
Ah I see and in that case I agree my bad, I give myself a 'what a fuck'. Moving on..

Effectively I could bring in
+ 3 Pyroblast
+ 2 Inquisition of Kozilek
+ 2 Echoing Truth

So 7 cards against Miracles, Stoneblade, Sneak and Show, and Reanimator.

I am having a hard time deciding what to take out.
I like it, might have to try something similar although locally I still see enough grave strategy to keep extractions in. As for what to side out against those decks I usually start with some number of probe (id do 2 straight across for IoK in your case) and EtW, the rest is situational but often includes 1 CR, 1 ponder and sometimes the basic swamp due to lack of wastelands in these matches. IF you side in tendrils (which I dont) then I would side out BW since they become pretty useless without a SB tendrils.
Not sure what is entirely correct but maybe that helps.

Would any of you consider moving the second tendrils main after boarding against miracles? It has worked for me previously.
I dont see the benefit outweighing the potential downside of drawing 1 or more in your opener especially since you lose BW as a kill option, but this is theory since I havent tried it.