[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

[Dark Ritual]

@Carsten: Congrats for the tournament. I'm glad to hear you are storming again. I' d rather found IGG was also kinda underwhelming and I'd rahter drop it. But IGG is super sweet in a n aggro enviroment. Also it is a lot better than PiF when you board Cages in, nevertheless this is kinda corner case for some reasons, first is taht when you baord cage in (I mean when I board cages in) is because it s going to win the game by itself giving you enough time to multi tutor chain or ADN (the decks that need tha cage be baorded won't really hurt me much until they do their thing). Furthermore I found that even aggro decks are playing some traps in the board, which makes IGG even weaker. Therefore I think I may give a chance to any other card in the side. But Warrens feels like too narrow, I will side it any time against RUG, but nothing else, I rally don't think it is bonkers against any other deck. Sepcially because I will keep all 3, Tendrils, ADN and PiF, when siding Warrens in, so the natural change will be Grimm Tutor <--> Empty the Warrens, but even this change makes the plan weaker because with Warrens in the deck, the more tutors the better so you can cast it really early. Still not sure, but have to think about it.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

P.S. In addition, I'm not a big fan of Dread of night. They are almost auto win against G/W but the decreasing number of those in conjunction with reanimator being a major threat that should be solved I'd rahter use those hate slots for grave hate (I don't really think dredge is a big deal, so yes I'm usinghappily 7-8 sideboard slots against reanimator, the match is so unbalanced...). If you are worried agasint G/W too just splash some Karakas in the board as hybrid hate (and when siding treat them always as spells.

Second the karakas idea. The card is actually insanely good, at least infinitely better than DoN in storm sideboards. I put 3 in my sideboard and haven't looked back. The card has so much utility unlike DoN. Against reanimator I singlehandedly beat them because I played karakas directly after he reanimated griselbrand. If griselbrand draws him seven cards a turn I'm almost certainly not winning that game.

Dark confidant against maverick? That matchup is easy as soon as you include karakas + virtue's ruin. If you lose that matchup with this sideboard I would be amazed:

4 Abrupt Decay
1 Trop
1 Bayou
3 Karakas
3 Virtue's Ruin
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Tendrils

The matchup becomes a cakewalk when you get to board in 12 cards +2 lands for AD. You'd have to punt pretty hard to lose against maverick with this sideboard. Not to mention the only card that is relegated to just maverick + the odd fringe decks you might come across is virtue's ruin. Chain of vapor is a solid card. Abrupt decay answer CB, and that card gives me headaches when it's in play. Karakas is good against anything relying on legends to win outside of clique.

[BKclassic]

For what match-ups are you guys boarding Chain of Vapor? I haven't come across anything Abrupt Decay doesn't take care of, so I cut them for Inquisition of Kozilek so I would have something to bring in against Canadian Thresh.

Edit- I suppose Leyline of Sanctity is a solid target. Anything else i forgot?

[Tammit67]

Edit- I suppose Leyline of Sanctity is a solid target. Anything else i forgot?

That's pretty much it off the top of my head, outside Iona or something similar.

[Koby]

Chain of Vapor is a good way to generate storm against Discard heavy decks.

[aaronm678]

4 Abrupt Decay
1 Trop
1 Bayou
3 Karakas
3 Virtue's Ruin
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Tendrils


I'm on a very similar sb right now, except I prefer pyroclasm over virtues ruin (slightly less narrow, makes some random matchups impossible to lose), and I haven't really found a need for chain anymore.

My sb is 1 trop, 3 pyroclasm, 3 karakas, 3 abrupt decay, 4 thoughtseize, 1 c mox, and I have 16 md land, one is a trop.

[emidln]

Clasm doesn't actually kill hate bears against Maverick. Part of the reason you can afford to pay 3-4 for Virtue's Ruin is that they won't crack back after you tap down. If they still have a Knight or, worse, have Mom protecting a hatebear, you're in for a very bad time. Clasm isn't really necessary in other matchups. You don't need or want it vs goblins. You don't need or want it vs elves. It's pretty worthless vs Dredge.

I don't have an issue with natural tendrils from hand. Between Snapcaster Mage, Infernal Tutor, Cabal Therapy, and Gitaxian Probe, I find I always can Tendrils my opponent out without a separate storm engine should I draw my Tendrils. This is particularly true against RUG. If you are finding yourself beginning the combo turn without 6-8 cards in hand, you probably fucked up during the setup portion of the game (e.g. running out that Therapy or Duress several turns pre-combo).

Dark Confidant is extremely weak against Maverick. You don't want to burn acceleration on it. It can't even reliably kill things you care about in combat (they're unlikely to walk their Teeg into it, and everything else likely to attack in their deck kills it while surviving. It takes 2 upkeeps to gain card advantage. These are turns that you give them (while waiting for a profit) that they are clocking you or playing lock pieces.

Dark Confidant has no place in Legacy storm right now. The discard decks back Abrupt Decay and/or and/or Pulse and/or Deed and/or Vindicate and/or EE and those cards are all fine against us anyway (so unlikely to side out and unlikely to generate advantage). The aggro-control decks play burn (that they won't side out) or the bgw stuff (that also won't be sided out). You might have a case against UW w/CB, except where they don't actually have enough cards to side out their stps and ignoring the fact that abrupt decay is all you actually need against UW. The combo mirror might theoretically be the place where Dark Confidant is good, except that everyone plays Duress/Seize + Therapy now, so Snapcaster Mage is, in fact, much better value (keeps parity immediately, is likely to gain 1 or 2 immediately via Therapy or Duress; could even attack if you feel the need).

[aaronm678]

Clasm doesn't actually kill hate bears against Maverick. Part of the reason you can afford to pay 3-4 for Virtue's Ruin is that they won't crack back after you tap down. If they still have a Knight or, worse, have Mom protecting a hatebear, you're in for a very bad time. Clasm isn't really necessary in other matchups. You don't need or want it vs goblins. You don't need or want it vs elves. It's pretty worthless vs Dredge.


Honestly, part of the reason it's Pyroclasm > Virtue's Ruin for me is because SB I have 12 cards that come in against Maverick. Yes, in theory Mother of Runes + Hate bear causes a problem, but in practice that is pretty trivial to prevent the game from getting to that state. If the game does get to that state, all of Maverick's hate bears are legendary, and I run 3 Karakas + Instant speed removal spells to hit a protected hate bear. And we must be playing the matchup very differently if Knight of the Reliquary is causing you problems. It's possible this is because Pyroclasm comes down a turn earlier, but I don't think I've ever really wished that clasm could kill Knight, though. It does kill Ooze, though, which isn't irrelevant.

Elves more often than not has Teeg, and it's pretty nice being able to bring in a removal spell for it that will also buy you 10 turns against them. This matchup doesn't really need much help, but it is definitely loseable, and it's a very popular deck. It's also pretty difficult to lose any game against Merfolk where it resolves. I don't even bring it in against Dredge, but there are random creature decks (Zombies, Affinity, etc). Again, this deck doesn't really need help against those matchups, but it is nice being able to bring in a card that they typically can't ever beat, particularly when I'm not even convinced Virtue's Ruin is better against Maverick in the first place.

[egosum]

For what match-ups are you guys boarding Chain of Vapor? I haven't come across anything Abrupt Decay doesn't take care of, so I cut them for Inquisition of Kozilek so I would have something to bring in against Canadian Thresh.

Edit- I suppose Leyline of Sanctity is a solid target. Anything else i forgot?

Chain of vapor is simply the best bouncer/anti hate card for Storm decks, specially those ANT incarnations playing Cabal Ritual. It provides Storm, it provides Threshold and it gets rid of a given hate card.

In the following article I have my sideboard plan, it may itnerest you as an answer because I'm playing 3x Chain of Vapor in my current board. http://manainfinito.com/articulos/mareas-cambiantes-4c-ad-nauseam-por-i-aki-puigdollers

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[Dark Ritual]

Honestly, part of the reason it's Pyroclasm > Virtue's Ruin for me is because SB I have 12 cards that come in against Maverick. Yes, in theory Mother of Runes + Hate bear causes a problem, but in practice that is pretty trivial to prevent the game from getting to that state. If the game does get to that state, all of Maverick's hate bears are legendary, and I run 3 Karakas + Instant speed removal spells to hit a protected hate bear. And we must be playing the matchup very differently if Knight of the Reliquary is causing you problems. It's possible this is because Pyroclasm comes down a turn earlier, but I don't think I've ever really wished that clasm could kill Knight, though. It does kill Ooze, though, which isn't irrelevant.

Elves more often than not has Teeg, and it's pretty nice being able to bring in a removal spell for it that will also buy you 10 turns against them. This matchup doesn't really need much help, but it is definitely loseable, and it's a very popular deck. It's also pretty difficult to lose any game against Merfolk where it resolves. I don't even bring it in against Dredge, but there are random creature decks (Zombies, Affinity, etc). Again, this deck doesn't really need help against those matchups, but it is nice being able to bring in a card that they typically can't ever beat, particularly when I'm not even convinced Virtue's Ruin is better against Maverick in the first place.

Ummm, I still have 14 cards to bring in against maverick if I feel the need for ALL the abrupt decay's. As for mother into hatebear, that is indeed a thing. I have lost games because my only out to a resolved hatebear is wish -> pyroclasm and that doesn't work because they have mom to protect their hatebear. I'd rather just wipe their board of all the relevant things, and KotR is in fact relevant against us when they fetch bojuka bog in response to past in flames to blow us out of the water.

Chain of vapor is an incredibly flexible card and it answers everything abrupt decay does except CB. It's also is a storm engine by itself when you have multiple artifacts to bounce with it, and I am quite fond of making that play and that play has won me games where it was otherwise unwinnable without CoV providing storm. Here are some of the cards it hits:

platinum angel/emperion
iona
griselbrand
almost any fatty out of reanimator
leyline of sanctity/the void
hatebears when they don't have mom
anything not named countermagic/the tabernacle at pendrell vale (the only relevant land against us if we do go for EtW the other being rishadan port)

Sure some of these aren't the most relevant or get bounced by other things like karakas, but chain has pulled its weight for me.

Natural tendrils from hand is quite nice when the opponent uses countermagic against you on the combo turn. I know I love it when I match my 8 cards to my opponents 7 or less cards, as you're almost a lock to win if they lack stifle or you can make them discard it. Snapcaster giving 3 storm is also great when you flashback probe and therapy after resolving snapcaster otherwise it grants 2 storm if they use countermagic on it. Either play is a win win for you unless you needed snapcaster to continue the spell chain.

[egosum]

Chain of vapor is simply the best bouncer/anti hate card for Storm decks, specially those ANT incarnations playing Cabal Ritual. It provides Storm, it provides Threshold (thanks to destroying your own lands) and it gets rid of a given hate card.

In the following article I have my sideboard plan, it may itnerest you as an answer because I'm playing 3x Chain of Vapor in my current board. http://manainfinito.com/articulos/mareas-cambiantes-4c-ad-nauseam-por-i-aki-puigdollers

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[Sloshthedark]

Ummm, I still have 14 cards to bring in against maverick if I feel the need for ALL the abrupt decay's. As for mother into hatebear, that is indeed a thing. I have lost games because my only out to a resolved hatebear is wish -> pyroclasm and that doesn't work because they have mom to protect their hatebear. I'd rather just wipe their board of all the relevant things, and KotR is in fact relevant against us when they fetch bojuka bog in response to past in flames to blow us out of the water.


well I had Virtues Ruin in the SB for half a year and never - not once - wished for it, only time I used it was naturally drawn and won me the game obv. killing c2 KotR and Thalia somewhere in February =) ... on the other hand I used Pyroclasm more often (saved mi life vs. Elves and affinity few times), my problem with VR is not the effect (particularly, because I'm not comfortable with Ooze in my SB plan which could change) but the 3CC +1 with Thalia which is quite prohibitive and requires deck construction with more basics imho which I could not accept same as passing the turn after VR... so eot bounce, my trun pyroclasm ftw.

Dark Confidant btw. is completely fine, they need to keep stupid hands with T2 havebear, Dark confidant enables land drops and chips off life total so Toa from hand, CoV Toa, Double Toa is not a problem, with this plan you do not kill them on your T3 but turn X before you die...

[Dark Ritual]

well I had Virtues Ruin in the SB for half a year and never - not once - wished for it, only time I used it was naturally drawn and won me the game obv. killing c2 KotR and Thalia somewhere in February =) ... on the other hand I used Pyroclasm more often (saved mi life vs. Elves and affinity few times), my problem with VR is not the effect (particularly, because I'm not comfortable with Ooze in my SB plan which could change) but the 3CC +1 with Thalia which is quite prohibitive and requires deck construction with more basics imho which I could not accept same as passing the turn after VR... so eot bounce, my trun pyroclasm ftw.

Dark Confidant btw. is completely fine, they need to keep stupid hands with T2 havebear, Dark confidant enables land drops and chips off life total so Toa from hand, CoV Toa, Double Toa is not a problem, with this plan you do not kill them on your T3 but turn X before you die...

Ummmm, you cannot win with gaddock teeg in play and playing through a thalia in play is almost impossible. Dark confidant won't be getting damage in for you against maverick, not when they're dropping dudes each turn typically as their deck is virtually all creatures + equipment + StP. Just an FYI if maverick keeps in StP against your confidant plan and they plow your confidant, congratulations you just got blown out most likely.

Burning wish is a terrible card and I suggest you cut it. I have no idea how you tolerate drawing that card, as it is actually just terrible in this deck. Once I switched from wish to snapcaster + grim I was a lot happier.

[Sloshthedark]

Ummmm, you cannot win with gaddock teeg in play and playing through a thalia in play is almost impossible. Dark confidant won't be getting damage in for you against maverick, not when they're dropping dudes each turn typically as their deck is virtually all creatures + equipment + StP. Just an FYI if maverick keeps in StP against your confidant plan and they plow your confidant, congratulations you just got blown out most likely.

Burning wish is a terrible card and I suggest you cut it. I have no idea how you tolerate drawing that card, as it is actually just terrible in this deck. Once I switched from wish to snapcaster + grim I was a lot happier.

Why? pyroclasm is ok, Thalia G1 is not impossible with either build / 1-2 hits is enough /maybe, haven't happened yet, only gutshot ;), still could have won through Thalia hitting 1 tutor in the game / yes it is yet I went the other way - from Snap back to BW and I will keep at least 1 just for the EtW

EDIT:

SCG St.Louis - Quick Question: Why isn’t Storm more popular?

Caleb Durward
Because it’s not a rewarding deck. You can outplay your opponent and still lose to Thalia. With most combo decks you’re cantripping and stuff and you’re making these close decisions correctly and it ends up more powerful than people think because they’ve been playtesting with it wrong, so you do things they don’t expect and you take advantage of gaps in your opponent’s testing. But with Storm, it’s just too fragile. The hate cards are too good, even if you do everything right. Also Counterbalance is a tier 1 deck. It’s just not a good metagame for Storm.

Justin Uppal
It’s hard to play... unless you’re European.

=D

[aaronm678]

I did...ok at the SCG St. louis, 4-3-1, for top 64. Maindeck was the normal stuff + 4 duress, 4 probe, 3 cabal therapy, 2 grim tutor, 16 land, 0 snapcaster. My sb was something like 3 decay, 3 thoughtseize, bayou, 2 pyroclasm, 3 karakas, ill-gotten gains, 1 virtues ruin, 1 chain.

I played RUG (1-2), Reanimator (2-1), RUG (2-0), Nic Fit (2-0), Esper (1-2), RUG (2-0), Esper (1-2), ID.

Game 3 against the second esper deck, the hand I kept was 5 land, petal, brainstorm. I kept because the matchup is so grindy, and I was curious to see how the hand did in the matchup (we were out of top 8 at this point, so didn't particularly care how it ended). It ended up working out fine, as I was able to take my time on cantrips, and the hand came together fine, and it was nice to sit back and make land drops while they don't really do anything (ended up losing to a top-clique flip I wasn't prepared for), but I was curious on your guys' thoughts?

EDIT:

RE: ruin vs clasm, I'm just saying post board, we run so much removal it isn't that difficult to deal with Mom + hate bear (Preboard I lose to a Thalia whether or not they have Mom, so that's kind of irrelevant...if you're running Burning Wish and you're wishing for a removal spell, I would guess that Pyroclasm isn't what you want, but I really have no idea, I've played < 10 matches against Mav with BW in my deck). If they play a mother of runes, you should probably kill it before they untap with it, otherwise you're going to have to wait for 2 removal spells or a karakas. Yeah, it occasionally happens, imo, it's been way more relevant to have a board wipe that costs less and is a little less narrow. (for the record, I tried a mix at the tourney and never used either).

[Anselm]

I wouldn't keep that hand. If you draw one more land in the 4-5 cards you see when you brainstorm, you're stuck with 4 even if you shuffle away two of them, and that seems like too little gas for my taste. I see your point, as mulliganing against a deck with both discard and counterspells is bad, but still, I'd rather take that chance.

On another note, I went 8-1 in a local 45ish-player tournament this weekend. Ran 4 therapy, 3 duress, 1 grim, 2 preordain, 0 wish build, with 2 tropicals and 7 fetches. Sb was 3 decay, 2 dread, 2 karakas, 3 swarm, 1 EtW, 1 cage, 1 spell pierce, 2 city of traitors.

The spell pierce is for faster combo, as I've really struggled against things like cephalid breakfast (yes, really) before, where they have so much redundancy that discard sometimes doesn't cut it. That said, it's probably not worth it. City of Traitors is against RUG, to be able to pay for spell pierce and daze a bit more. That I'm quite fond of, but I haven't tested enough postboard games to be sure.

Have the feeling dread of night is just better than karakas against maverick etc; especially when you have decay you want to kill mother of runes, and doing it "for free" is sweet. Might switch the spell pierce for a second cage at the same time to hedge against reanimator a bit (it's still very bad of a matchup).

I faced a rather strange bunch of decks: no RUG, maverick or miracles except in the finals which we split and didn't play. It went something like this:

Omnitell 2-0 (swarm off SnT)
Burn 0-2 (miscounted pre sb, lost to Pyrostatic Pillar post)
High Tide 2-1 (swarm was excellent)
RUG Cascade 2-0
UR Delver 2-1
UG Infect 2-1 (lost t2 first game after I had duressed a brainstorm and he topdecked glistener elf + invigorate to go with his berserk, won the third t1 on the draw. he wasn't terribly happy)
Death and Taxes 2-0 (beat a board of thalia, mother, canonist, rest in peace)
BUG Landstill 2-0 (swarm would have been fantastic had I drawn it)

[Sloshthedark]

@aaronm678 - on play I'd keep it (petal, BS, fetch makes it a decent mull 6 anyway), on draw never against this deck

[aaronm678]

@aaronm678 - on play I'd keep it (petal, BS, fetch makes it a decent mull 6 anyway), on draw never against this deck

It was on the play, I forgot to mention that. I don't think you'd ever keep that on the draw, as you just lose to a duress.

[JamieW89]

Played a UBw ANT deck with a green splash in the board to a top-4 finish in the ~150 player side event of GP Lyon. Finals would have been against Merfolk. Might edit in an actual report.

R1: UBr ANT 2-0
R2: UW Delverblade 2-0
R3: Burn 2-1
R4: UWr Miracles 2-0
R5: BUG Delver 2-1
R6: MUD 1-2 (Messed it up myself)
R7: Dredge 2-1
R8: BUG 1-1 (He couldn't draw but took ages, so we drew anyways)

QF: RUG 2-1
SF: MUD 1-2 (I had a t1 kill g3 and he had nothing on the play. I drew spells I couldnt cast and had to discard in roughly 10 drawsteps that I had to win. Insane.)

[Koby]

I've bene playing locally and one matchup where I've been having difficulty is against the new breed of Deadguy/Junk decks with Liliana of the Veil. Her repeated discards backed by spot discard makes it very tricky to go off, and hard to maintain a sizeable hand. What strategies do people find to work best against such a deck? (Wasteland, Thoughtseize/Inquisition/Duress, Hymn, Sinkhole)

[dune2k]

Played a UBw ANT deck with a green splash in the board to a top-4 finish in the ~150 player side event of GP Lyon.
I'm really interested in your deck. Did you play Silence/Orim's Chant? No Past in Flames? What's the green splash for, Abrupt Decay/Xantid Swarm?


I've bene playing locally and one matchup where I've been having difficulty is against the new breed of Deadguy/Junk decks with Liliana of the Veil. Her repeated discards backed by spot discard makes it very tricky to go off, and hard to maintain a sizeable hand. What strategies do people find to work best against such a deck? (Wasteland, Thoughtseize/Inquisition/Duress, Hymn, Sinkhole)

Against LD just play your fetchlands but don't crack them unless you need the mana.
For discard: Unless they have/had a fast clock, which most discard heavey decks don't, I always won against discard heavy decks via Past in Flames (http://magiccards.info/query?q=past+in+flames&v=card&s=cname) and playing my artifact fast mana before they can make me discard it.

[JamieW89]

I'm really interested in your deck. Did you play Silence/Orim's Chant? No Past in Flames? What's the green splash for, Abrupt Decay/Xantid Swarm?



I played 3 Chants, 2 Silence, 2 Therapy. IGG (<3) over PiF. Green was purely for Decays (although I had to play a terrible build with 1 Grip and a shockdual over Trop + 3rd decay because of not bringing all legacy stuff but it doesn't matter too much in the one matchup you want them for anyways).
I played Swarm, Carpet and Decay in the UBg version I 5-2'd legacy nationals with last week and that was fine too, but with white you can't really support the green against decks with wasteland.
The extra sideboard space also came in handy as I had Cage and 2 Extirpate against dredge and 2 Serenity against MUD (which I should have beaten in the swiss with better plays and in the top-4 if I had drawn a castable spell once..).

[MTG Junkie]

Iv been wanting to do some thing with Chants or Swarm my self. Last tornament I went to it felt like my discard affects where decent game 1 but game 2 it felt they weren't as good. Against blue anyways.
I played against a 12 post player who boarded in 4 Flusterstorm and 4 COTV. I also played against a High Tide player who boarded in flusterstorm. I found it really hard to keep them off there combo while dealing with there cantrips and counterspells.

What was your mana base like?

[Spigore]

Is Infest not an option anymore vs Mavericks hatebears?
I know it's 3cc and sorcery speed, and 4cc Massacre doesn't pass through a Teeg, but it does sweep the entire pack of bears and doesn't bother about Mom's protection.

EDIT: Nice read Carsten & Iñaki

[door]

Is Infest not an option anymore vs Mavericks hatebears?
I know it's 3cc and sorcery speed, and 4cc Massacre doesn't pass through a Teeg, but it does sweep the entire pack of bears and doesn't bother about Mom's protection.

EDIT: Nice read Carsten & Iñaki

I suppose, you may never hit 4 lands to cast it through Thalia, considering their wastelands and stuff.

[Rampart]

Is Infest not an option anymore vs Mavericks hatebears?
I know it's 3cc and sorcery speed, and 4cc Massacre doesn't pass through a Teeg, but it does sweep the entire pack of bears and doesn't bother about Mom's protection.

EDIT: Nice read Carsten & Iñaki

its still an option, but people are opting to use Virtues Ruin instead as it hits all the hate bears plus KOTR which is very relevant.

[emidln]

I've bene playing locally and one matchup where I've been having difficulty is against the new breed of Deadguy/Junk decks with Liliana of the Veil. Her repeated discards backed by spot discard makes it very tricky to go off, and hard to maintain a sizeable hand. What strategies do people find to work best against such a deck? (Wasteland, Thoughtseize/Inquisition/Duress, Hymn, Sinkhole)


Snapcaster Mages.

Other cards that people don't play much that I find to be clutch are Sensei's Divining Top, Divert, and more lands in the sb. A 2nd Past in Flames would likely be helpful as well. Unfortunately, most of the strategies (outside of Divert) are pretty bad if they also have Deed or EE to sweep your artifacts. If they have Deed/EE + Hymns + Sinkholes, you might just accept that as a loss when they curve out perfectly (and beat them with Past in Flames or Ad Nauseam when they don't).

[egosum]

Thanks Spigore.

About Infest. I really never lked it for being both expensive and mana intensive. I will only consider it in an straight UB build with 3 Island 2 Swamps. And even in this case Virtue's Ruin is far better option.

On Virtue's Ruin it is quite expensive and you may have some troubles to cast it in time if you pretend to BW into it, while adding it to main is not a great idea for being a singleton and high cost, and lplayign multiples is even worse idea, if you want to do it so, you' d better think in a full set of Dread of night.

On Massacre, is a nice wish target, though you need extra answers for Gaddock.

I' d rather prefer pyroclasm for BWish build (TNT). For both cost and versatility, it can sweep a board full of goblins or merfolks buying you some precious time, it can eventually be a useful card against Belcher or a bad/desperate ANT/TNT/TES player, for cleansing EtW.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[Koby]

Snapcaster Mages.

Other cards that people don't play much that I find to be clutch are Sensei's Divining Top, Divert, and more lands in the sb. A 2nd Past in Flames would likely be helpful as well. Unfortunately, most of the strategies (outside of Divert) are pretty bad if they also have Deed or EE to sweep your artifacts. If they have Deed/EE + Hymns + Sinkholes, you might just accept that as a loss when they curve out perfectly (and beat them with Past in Flames or Ad Nauseam when they don't).

That was indeed the situation I faced. I incorrectly boarded out Ad Nauseam thinking I wouldn't manage to ever fire it off, then proceeded to generate 9 mana and have IT with hellbent. /punt/
The tactics you're suggesting sound more like DDFT rather than straight up ANT; which I can agree with for the former, but not the latter. Liliana of the Veil decks are a perfect storm of disruption against storm.

[emidln]

That was indeed the situation I faced. I incorrectly boarded out Ad Nauseam thinking I wouldn't manage to ever fire it off, then proceeded to generate 9 mana and have IT with hellbent. /punt/
The tactics you're suggesting sound more like DDFT rather than straight up ANT; which I can agree with for the former, but not the latter. Liliana of the Veil decks are a perfect storm of disruption against storm.

I haven't had a ton of IRL matches recently, but the ones I've had have involved a lot of Liliana of the Veil decks. Unless the deck plays Deed/Null Rod/EE/Stony Silence and finds them, I simply do not care. They succumb to the exact same strategies that have destroyed black disruption decks for years: kill them turn 1 or run out your difficult to destroy mana sources and wait for a bomb.

If those strategies sound like DDFT strategies, it's because I've preached them to DDFT players who needed to beat black disruption decks. They aren't uniquely mine and the weren't developed for DDFT. SDT is a reasonable card in ANT and is extremely difficult to deal with for a discard deck. I already play extra lands in my ANT sideboard and they are awesome at making sure I can weather the wastelands and sinkholes with enough mana to cast cantrips and a bomb when I draw it. DD has the benefit of costing less than Ad Nauseam and having a Time Spiral pile that generates a ton of storm and doesn't care about the cards in my hand. Other than that, all of the advantages afforded to DD playing in this manner are available and enjoyed by ANT. You might not have SDT (which is a leg up), but developing lands to make the most of Brainstorm/Ponder into an eventual IT/AdN/PiF is still good.

I'm not saying specifically that I would play SDT right now, but if I was encountering a lot of black disruption decks, I'd consider playing a few SDTs (they also super awesome against RUG and UW).

[Koby]

I certainly remember those days back when MT was still legal and SDT provided a way to invest the mana to have MT provide an immediate effect. I may be blurring the lines between DD builds too (and to be fair, DDFT was a better performer in those days). I don't think the 4c ANT builds can afford to go that long against today's format with RUG/Legacy's Wasteland and W/x-Midrange's Thalia, which may hurt SDT's chances in ANT.

On the flip side, blue mages are often concerned about countering SDT in today's metagame were cantrips would go through unopposed. This could help.

[Deviruchi]

JamieW89: I would like to read your reports very much (also about UBG version). I'm torn apart between some decks and your thoughts about +g and +w versions would be very helpful. I hope you will find some time for us ;)

[Asthereal]

Jamie has an extensive report up in Dutch here: http://benelegacy.nl/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=4543
You can Google Translate it to English and get something vaguely readable. :wink:

@Jamie: if you find the time to translate, let us know. :cool:

[rajang1991]

hi i'm an italian player :)
i play ant in a local tournament with 100 person 7 turn of swiss and top 8
the list i played is this:
2 underground sea
1 volcanic island
1 tropical island
1 island
1 swamp
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual
4 led
4 lotus petal
1 mox diamond
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 infernal tutor
1 lim dul's vault( everytime i cast this spell i win the game...it's too strong!!!)
1 sensei's divining top
1 preordain
2 duress
2 thoughthseize
3 cabal therapy
3 gitaxian probe
1 chain of vapor
1 pst in flames
1 tendrils of agony
1 ad nauseam
sideboards
3 dark confidant
3 krosan grip ( for omnitell i loose every time i play this matchup)
2 surgical extraction
2 chain of vapor
2 infest
3 empty the warrens
i do 5-1-1
i win against esper stoneblade 2 maverick 1 uw stoneblade and i win against spiral tide, i loose only from bug with deathrite shaman
the deck it's great i prefer lim dul on burning wish because with lim dul's can search what you want any time you want at istant speed and every time i cast it i win the game!! the loose against bug i's only my mistake .i loose the first game for a stupid error and in the second i open a good hand with duress swamp surgical and some other cards like brainstorm and lands.i play swamp duress and is hand it's fow spell pierce 2 daze 2 land and brainstorm :D i discard easy fow ad surgical on it and i see he side in only 3 flusterstorm ...he draw another spell pierce a vendilion 2 flusterstorm and a snapcaster...i can only loose :D
i finish 9 for rating ;) the deck it's great and the list it's solid :) try it

[Sloshthedark]

7th, 50 person tournament, 6 rounds, top 8

2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
2 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Ponder
1 Grim Tutor


SB: 1 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 2 Karakas
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Bayou
SB: 3 Xantid Swarm


UGR threshold 2-0, he sided out Bolts last tournament, so I bring in Xantid swarm, he laughs - envelop and multiple soft counters in hand - and dies when 14 goblins join the swarm few turns later

Burn 2-1, really close games I dont't find tutor G1 and win with 1 and 4 life G2, G3, has Mindbreak Trap instead of Pillar

UW aggro 2-1, weird rogue deck, I die to Jitte equipped Mom +daze Owl after he playes Soulbond doublestriker, I missplay T1 (should have petal BS fetch) and he wastes my only land so I'm mana/turn short to discard a Fow and kill him in the end, G2 swarm and die, G3 14 goblins T2

UGR threshold 2-0, I keep multiple lands petal ritual, he doesn't have T1 delver and dies horridly, G2 just dies T2 or 3

ID (UR Nivmagus CB)
scoop to random.dec

Top 8 - 1-2 UBG Veteran, eventual winner - G1 dies T3 after some Fow check, G2 he hesitates to keep, and plays Top off Sea, I T1 therapy and decide to check for FoW because of his hesitation and my one-of AD in hand and potent early kill, he has 2 CB and Extirpate in hand obv. but offcolor lands, finds some with Top and BS, so at 3 mana he is tapped out and has the lock, I AD eot and if I draw any manasource I kill him, which I do not and he kept second CB in hand so I keep drawing crap and die xx turns later to Clique and CB lock, G3 T1 I can duress off petal and can attempt T2 kill but pass instead, he playes Sea and passes, in my turn I BS, duress which gets flusterstormed and decide to go for the kill off petal, he Fows for Fow my Infernal Tutor and Extirpates it in his turn which I cannot recover from... sad ending but still I think my decisions were right, my next matches would have been the Canadian player that sided out Bolts and Bant in the finals =/

haven't cast Ad Nauseam in the tournament, Swarm MVP, kind of missed Dark Confidant in the last match, happy with the list except 2nd Abrupt decay should squeeze in somehow

[Tammit67]

Ad nauseum with 2 Past in flames, tendrils and grim tutor sounds rough. Better have 2 mana floating, eh?

[Sloshthedark]

Ad nauseum with 2 Past in flames, tendrils and grim tutor sounds rough. Better have 2 mana floating, eh?

depends... good to know LED, LED, Pif is usually enough, it's roughly the same as 2nd Grim but you just don't play the unless you have to, so - land, petal, Infernal, 2x LED opener goes BW->EtW obv. even with DR I would go for Goblins unless against other combo, G2 the 2nd Pif are usually EtW... the deck is PiF deck, not AdN anymore, kill through PiF most time and most T1 kills feature PiF in hand, and makes sure you win G1 with Thresh and heavy control

[ponder]

I won my qualifier and the gp Chicago legacy finals with UBrg ant il post my list later

[ponder]

4 delta
4 misty
1 bloodstained mire
3 underground
1 bayou
1 volcanic
1 swamp
1 island
4 probe
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual
4 lotus petal
4 lions eye diamond
4 duress
3 therapy
4 infernal tutor
2 grim tutor
1 past in flames
1 ad nauseam
1 tendrils of agony
Sb
4 dread of night
3 thoughtseize
3 abrupt decay
2 chain of vapor
1 echoing truth
1 ad nauseam
1 tropical island

Nothing extraordinary happened. The one match I lost was in the first round of the qualifier to dredge... He out raced me. I drew with mud and agreed to a prize split in the finals. We were the last two undefeateds and my gwp was higher so I got the win. Overall the deck felt great 9-1-1 on the weekend. Playing a win-a-mox Saturday with it.

[SaberTooth]

why there is a second nauseam in that list??

[ac3eb]

I was also wondering about the 2nd ad nauseam, and how do you board the thoughtseizes off the board? Do you replace cabal therapies or do you really want 10 discard spells g2-3 against certain decks??

[aaronm678]

I was also wondering about the 2nd ad nauseam, and how do you board the thoughtseizes off the board? Do you replace cabal therapies or do you really want 10 discard spells g2-3 against certain decks??

2nd Ad Naus is pretty sweet against decks you just want to flat race. I in most metas it makes sense to have 1 card like that in the board (Whether IGG or Ad Naus, I've tried both and like both).

[SaberTooth]

my opinion: Change the second nauseam for an ill-gotten, i mean with 2 grims ad nauseam can be very painful, but i never played that list, so i could be wrong

[Pelikanudo]

@Emidlin:
@Koby:

Regarding this:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?11184-Deck-ANT-(Ad-Nauseam-Tendrils)&p=678768&viewfull=1#post678768

I've been testing the list and I've been thinking in SAndTell , Reanimator and BUG Strategies also,

I think this will be:
Reanimator:
+1 Duress
+3 Karakas
=
-4 gitaxian

SAndTell:
+1 Duress
+3 Karakas
=
-4 gitaxian

BUG Control: (Jaceliliana No Tarmo)
Maybe same as RUG?

BUG Tempo: (Tarmo Deathrite lately)
Maybe same as RUG?

- I don't think the second Tendrils base could be useful with Reanimator and SaTell
- The gitaxian I think is the card to take out on these match ups but really not sure, I just don't think -1 Grim could be a good idea and decreasing the Threat count. Maybe taking -2snaps as seems a slow card agains them leaving 2 gitaxian.
- The reality is that gitaxian seems to shine in these match ups so I don't think what to take, same is applicable to BUG.

Please give me your advice.

[ponder]

@ac3eb
ad naus comes in against any deck that might be faster than you or any deck with discard. Maximizing "bomb" spells is important. I played the IGGY in the board for awhile and I decided it wasn't awesome enough to stay. The 3 thoughtseizes come in vs many decks: rug blade maverick deadguy ale high tide..... The probes come out first usually.

[mike1987]

Hey guys I was wondering if it is really that important to invest in grim tutor. I was playing a small tourney last night and I realised after my infernal tutors got extracted then that's when a burning wish can find a grim tutor into past in flames. Why not just put a single past in flames in the sideboard as well? I am sure there are other applications for grim tutor but I can't seem to think of any. :tongue:

[Rekk]

Hey guys I was wondering if it is really that important to invest in grim tutor. I was playing a small tourney last night and I realised after my infernal tutors got extracted then that's when a burning wish can find a grim tutor into past in flames. Why not just put a single past in flames in the sideboard as well? I am sure there are other applications for grim tutor but I can't seem to think of any. :tongue:

most people do run a pif or iggy in the board, did you not have any burning wish engines?

[Kl'rt]

Hey guys I was wondering if it is really that important to invest in grim tutor. I was playing a small tourney last night and I realised after my infernal tutors got extracted then that's when a burning wish can find a grim tutor into past in flames. Why not just put a single past in flames in the sideboard as well? I am sure there are other applications for grim tutor but I can't seem to think of any. :tongue:

Since Burning Wish is removed from the game after resolving, it can't be recurred with Past in Flames (or IGG). Grim Tutor however, can be recurred with PiF or IGG.

With all your Infernal Tutors extracted and the Burning Wish you used removed from the game, it may be difficult to find something to get your Tendrils after a PiF or IGG.


Cheers

[ponder]

http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=3216
Timo makes a good point about tutor may help

[mike1987]

most people do run a pif or iggy in the board, did you not have any burning wish engines?

I do have igg in the side but no pif.


Thanks for the replies guys, I think i might really be sinking in the buy the grim tutor. yea i totally agree having a grim tutor to flashback after past in flames is so important if infernal tutor is being extracted.

[aaronm678]

my opinion: Change the second nauseam for an ill-gotten, i mean with 2 grims ad nauseam can be very painful, but i never played that list, so i could be wrong

When I ran the 2nd Ad Naus in the board, I tended to board out the 2nd Grim Tutor as well, and board down to 15 lands.

[[PMP]Krevvy]

I have been out of legacy for about a year or so now and looking into playing a 30 man or so tournament this weekend on Sunday at a CMT in Ottawa. Just wondering if the burnwish plan is no longer good as I am seeing a lot of people running the 2 grim tutors and a sideboard karakas and abrupt decay.

As I don't really have a clue what the meta game will look like and I can't find any grim tutors to buy at the moment is there any updated wish lists? I know there is a really good article by Timo but with out the grim tutor should I move a inferno to the sideboard, as he suggests you buy one but that doesn't seem likely at the moment.

And should i look towards switching to the UBG version later down the road?

Edit: As most hate bears seem to be legendary , would phant image be useful at all for the sb for non wish versions.

[aaronm678]

Krevvy;686219']I have been out of legacy for about a year or so now and looking into playing a 30 man or so tournament this weekend on Sunday at a CMT in Ottawa. Just wondering if the burnwish plan is no longer good as I am seeing a lot of people running the 2 grim tutors and a sideboard karakas and abrupt decay.

As I don't really have a clue what the meta game will look like and I can't find any grim tutors to buy at the moment is there any updated wish lists? I know there is a really good article by Timo but with out the grim tutor should I move a inferno to the sideboard, as he suggests you buy one but that doesn't seem likely at the moment.

And should i look towards switching to the UBG version later down the road?

Edit: As most hate bears seem to be legendary , would phant image be useful at all for the sb for non wish versions.

You can still run the wish version, it's definitely still viable. I wouldn't run an IT in the board -- just accept that you can't win with Burning Wish as your only action and adjust your play accordingly - it doesn't make any sense to put your best card in the sideboard just to make the worst card in your maindeck slightly less bad. You could run something like Preordain in the SB, so you can use an early drawn BW to just improve your hand quality a little bit.

I think as long as Miracles is a thing, UBGr or just UBG is going to be the best option down the road.
.

[Asthereal]

Krevvy;686219']As most hate bears seem to be legendary , would phant image be useful at all for the sb for non wish versions.
That'd only be useful against Iona and other big legendary dudes. For the rest: Image is CMC2, so bad for Ad Nauseam, and furthermore it serves no purpose (doesn't kill normal creaturews, you have nothing to copy).
Against the many hate beats of late, I tried 3x Disfigure in the side. That worked okay, because they could also kill turn 1 Lackey to justify a slow kill versus Goblins, and turn 1 Mother of Runes which would otherwise protect the hatebear from your removal. But... there's a reason everybody plays Dread of Night. It's good. And Karakas bounces a hatebear regardless of Mother of Runes protecting it. Lastly the new Abrupt Decay can also destroy Counterbalance, which usually spells a loss for us, so that's also highly relevant. A selection of those three cards, suplemented by some bounce spells, should be your anti-hate package imho.

[mike1987]

You can still run the wish version, it's definitely still viable. I wouldn't run an IT in the board -- just accept that you can't win with Burning Wish as your only action and adjust your play accordingly - it doesn't make any sense to put your best card in the sideboard just to make the worst card in your maindeck slightly less bad. You could run something like Preordain in the SB, so you can use an early drawn BW to just improve your hand quality a little bit.

I think as long as Miracles is a thing, UBGr or just UBG is going to be the best option down the road.
.

I cant agree more, splashing green in the sideboard for decay and xantid swarm rocks. Usually second game, your opponent will side out STP or creature removal for more permission, that is why xantid swarm will take them by surprise. Decay not only targets counterbalance, thalia or teeg, it also hits less seen cards like thorn of amethyst, chalice of the void, rule of law, pyrostatic pillar etc.

[emidln]

If you're going to Wish->something and that something is going to be business to be used this turn or next, it seems like Time Spiral would be a legit option. Drawing 7 cards in the deck, particularly with mana available (you're going to untap at least 2-3 lands in this deck), is going to be very good for you. I still don't like Burning Wish, but if you find yourself frequently in the situation where you have boatloads of mana and nothing to spend it on (i.e. don't own Grim Tutor), Time Spiral seems like it would be fine.

[MTG Junkie]

To Emidln Dark Ritual and who ever else it concerns. Just sleeved up the list. I came across a hand that blew my mind. It was 2 Delta 2 LED 1 LP 1 Snapcaster and a Ad Nauseam,a turn 1 win. Maybe a turn 2 to be safe? But I'd do it turn 1.

How often do these hands happen?
Not so sure I'm sold on the bording strategy yet but Snapcaster seems to be good.

[Chikenbok]

To Emidln Dark Ritual and who ever else it concerns. Just sleeved up the list. I came across a hand that blew my mind. It was 2 Delta 2 LED 1 LP 1 Snapcaster and a Ad Nauseam,a turn 1 win. Maybe a turn 2 to be safe? But I'd do it turn 1.

How often do these hands happen?
Not so sure I'm sold on the bording strategy yet but Snapcaster seems to be good.

Uhm.. How the hell are you casting the Ad Nauseam in your hand on turn 1?

Edit: Apologies -- Bourbon didn't let me see the snapcaster in hand.

[MTG Junkie]

[QUOTE=Chikenbok;686658]Uhm.. How the hell are you casting the Ad Nauseam in your hand on turn 1?

UHM..... look a lil closer and figure it out. Its right in front of you.

[Telperion]

Uhm.. How the hell are you casting the Ad Nauseam in your hand on turn 1?

2 Delta 2 LED 1 LP 1 Snapcaster and a Ad Nauseam

1. Land > fetch 1 blue mana
2. Cast Lp > 1 colorless mana
3. Cast 2 LED
4. Cast Snapcaster off land and lotus petal
5. Respond by breaking both LED for 6 mana
6. Snapcaster Resolves giving Ad Nauseum flashback
7. Ad Nauseum with 1 floating or wait a turn to do it with protection or two floating

[Chikenbok]

Many apologies, did not see the snapcaster and spent a while staring at the cards in my hand confused as hell.

[rgripp]

Top 4'd a 154-person tournament in Brazil with this list:



1 Volcanic Island
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Underground Sea
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Swamp
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Ponder
4 Polluted Delta
1 Past In Flames
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion`s Eye Diamond
1 Island
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
1 Chrome Mox
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Cabal Ritual
3 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
1 Badlands
1 Ad Nauseam
Sideboard
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Tropical Island
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Pyroclasm
1 Past in Flames
1 Massacre
3 Karakas
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Duress
2 Abrupt Decay



My losses were to a RUG in the Swiss and a Sneak and Show on the Top 4. Will post a report if I find my notes.

[aaronm678]

To Emidln Dark Ritual and who ever else it concerns. Just sleeved up the list. I came across a hand that blew my mind. It was 2 Delta 2 LED 1 LP 1 Snapcaster and a Ad Nauseam,a turn 1 win. Maybe a turn 2 to be safe? But I'd do it turn 1.

How often do these hands happen?
Not so sure I'm sold on the bording strategy yet but Snapcaster seems to be good.

Turn 1 wins are <5%, they do happen occasionally, and almost always off ad naus - that hand actually has a >25% chance of fizzling on the turn 1 kill, as you've used half your LEDs, and you are probably going to need LED or a grim tutor to end the game there.

Keep in mind, I wouldn't put too much of that hand on snapcaster being good - most hands with 2 LEDs, a dark rit, and business are very good, whether or not you win turn 1.

[door]

Top 4'd a 154-person tournament in Brazil with this list:

My losses were to a RUG in the Swiss and a Sneak and Show on the Top 4. Will post a report if I find my notes.

Congrats! The list looks like Timo Schunemann's but with an upgraded SB. Really interested to read the report.

[Goosen]

How do those Karakas work out for you guys in the Maverick match up?

Looks good on paper both answer teeg and thalia, and dont care about the mother. But I have never tried it but can see two big problems, wasteland and karakas. They can just wasteland in there turn and replay the guy after its get "karakas" to their hand.

[Dark Ritual]

Karakas is incredible. I haven't faced maverick much after adopting Emidln's list, but karakas -> bounce thalia/teeg -> go off immediately is a sweet feeling.

Drawing the 1 of ad nauseam is a matter of luck, and drawing 2 LED's alongside snapcaster and petal alongside ad nauseam is even luckier. I have never opened with that hand or something like it, but eventually it will happen. Just don't expect to get hands like that regularly, I usually go off turn 3 with Emidln's list. Sometimes turn 2 but brainstorm is almost always involved in turn 2 kills as that card can just give you the nuts. Turn 1 happens a few times in a tournament, if that. All that matters to me is if I win or lose a given game, if I get a win in a super cool way or something that's great but a win is a win.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Hey guys,
I just obtained a couple Grim Tutors, so I would like to run this deck at a local Legacy tournament. I have played High Tide and TES in tournaments, so I am familiar with combo in Legacy, however this deck is a different beast. Please give any advice you have or link to helpful articles. Here is the list that I have in mind:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Swamp

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 LED

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy

4 Infernal Tutor
2 Grim Tutor
1 Tendrils
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Past in Flames

SB:
4 Dread of Night
3 Karakas
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Bayou
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 (???)

What should I run for the final slots? Thoughtseize? Inquisition? GY hate? My "meta" is essentially unknown, but I live in the US, so people love playing UWx decks and Delver right now. What is a good SB plan against RUG Delver?

Thanks for any help you all have to offer! It has been a long times since I have been on these forums.

[DerFern]

Hey guys,
What should I run for the final slots? Thoughtseize? Inquisition? GY hate? My "meta" is essentially unknown, but I live in the US, so people love playing UWx decks and Delver right now. What is a good SB plan against RUG Delver?

Carpet of Flowers
It´s the nuts against those tempo strategies and negates most Dazes and Spell Pierces. If you can stick one of them during your first or second turn, you have plenty of time to setup. I would not recommend adding more disruption, cause you already have eight (!) spells maindeck. Against an aggressive deck like RUG you´ll want to draw some business.
I´d try to squeeze one more carpet in, however. For reference, this is my sideboard with an identical maindeck:
3 Carpet of Flowers
4 Xantid Swarm
3 Dread of Night
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Bayou

However, I don´t like Karakas in this deck, so this makes up at least 2 slots.

[Lemnear]

I tend to agree, that Karakas looks a bit iffy, if you can't even use it's mana to cast something like Silence (See T.E.S.)

[Patrunkenphat7]

Thanks for the input! If you were to board in 3 Carpet of Flowers against RUG Delver, what cards do you board out? Also, if you board in Abrupt Decays against Miracles for Counterbalance, what cards do you board out there?
Thanks

[JamieW89]

Thanks for the input! If you were to board in 3 Carpet of Flowers against RUG Delver, what cards do you board out? Also, if you board in Abrupt Decays against Miracles for Counterbalance, what cards do you board out there?
Thanks

I currently board 2 Carpet of Flowers in the UBg version and 1 Silence (6th chant effect) and 1 Empty the Warrens in the UBw(g) version against RUG. Boarding an extra land or two is definately an option (in your the bayou) against mana disruption.
Against Miracles I board out the Mox (which you don't run), the 4th Cabal Ritual, a Gitaxian Probe and basic land(s) for 3 Decays and green land(s). Boarding out is usually harder than boarding in. Against many decks you replace protection with protection (bounce over discard/chants for example) but against blue decks you don't want to board out protection spells since carpet isn't that much better than a discard spell so if you're switching them it's a low value sideboard slot (and you don't want to board up to 10 disruption spells either, imo) which you'd rather not run. This is the reason I only board two cards in that matchup and for the Carpets I usually replace at least one probe and another of our 'worst' cards (Cabal Ritual, Mox, Probe, 2nd Grim Tutor). When I have a singleton Empty the Warrens in the board I tend to not board out any probes (they're insane with the EtW plan) and board out the Ad Nauseam & Cabal Rit for the Empty and Silence against RUG.
I think Karakas is decent in the versions with white and definately prefer it over a MD bounce spell in any storm variant. Never ran it in a list with no white spells though. But I feel it's still decent in them.

[Pelikanudo]

@Emidlin:
@Koby:

Regarding this:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?11184-Deck-ANT-(Ad-Nauseam-Tendrils)&p=678768&viewfull=1#post678768

I've been testing the list and I've been thinking in SAndTell , Reanimator and BUG Strategies also,

I think this will be:
Reanimator:
+1 Duress
+3 Karakas
=
-4 gitaxian

SAndTell:
+1 Duress
+3 Karakas
=
-4 gitaxian

BUG Control: (Jaceliliana No Tarmo)
Maybe same as RUG?

BUG Tempo: (Tarmo Deathrite lately)
Maybe same as RUG?

- I don't think the second Tendrils base could be useful with Reanimator and SaTell
- The gitaxian I think is the card to take out on these match ups but really not sure, I just don't think -1 Grim could be a good idea and decreasing the Threat count. Maybe taking -2snaps as seems a slow card agains them leaving 2 gitaxian.
- The reality is that gitaxian seems to shine in these match ups so I don't think what to take, same is applicable to BUG.

Please give me your advice.

Again.

[DerFern]

Thanks for the input! If you were to board in 3 Carpet of Flowers against RUG Delver, what cards do you board out? Also, if you board in Abrupt Decays against Miracles for Counterbalance, what cards do you board out there?
Thanks
Against RUG:
-2 Cabal Ritual
-1 Gitaxian Probe
-1 Ponder (otD) or -1 Gitaxian Probe (otP)
+3 Carpet of Flowers
+1 Empty the Warrens

yesterday I squeezed the Bayou into my maindeck, going down to only two basics. Felt okay, but not amazing. Gaining an additional sideboard slot obviously was huge, so I need to test this more.
Cause both Grims of our playgroup were used I had to play 2 Snapcaster Mages in its slot. I hate to play not optimal lists and this definitely was one. ANT wants and needs at least one Grim Tutor in there.

[Anselm]

I'm running 2 preordain, 1 grim tutor, 0 BW main, and the following sb:

3 abrupt decay
4 dread of night
1 empty the warrens
2 grafdigger's cage
3 xantid swarm
2 city of traitors

The cities are against daze and spell pierce out of rug and similar. They feel good, but not amazing, and I wonder if I should change them. Maybe to Sensei's Divining Tops, as they are great vs black-based disruption as well as okay vs miracles and rug, all hard matchups (as emildn recommended a couple of pages back). Any thoughts?

Also, would you bring in the xantid swarms vs rug? I feel they keep most bolts in anyway, and they can be stifled.

Should I maybe try something like an IGG for when I just want extra speed?

[ThomasDowd]

I'm running 2 preordain, 1 grim tutor, 0 BW main, and the following sb:

3 abrupt decay
4 dread of night
1 empty the warrens
2 grafdigger's cage
3 xantid swarm
2 city of traitors

The cities are against daze and spell pierce out of rug and similar. They feel good, but not amazing, and I wonder if I should change them. Maybe to Sensei's Divining Tops, as they are great vs black-based disruption as well as okay vs miracles and rug, all hard matchups (as emildn recommended a couple of pages back). Any thoughts?

Also, would you bring in the xantid swarms vs rug? I feel they keep most bolts in anyway, and they can be stifled.

Should I maybe try something like an IGG for when I just want extra speed?

I would board in the swarms versus rug, that is a bolt that is not pointed at your head (probably giving you about an extra 1/2 turn on average since their deck is all 3's) and a stifle that is not used on a something else. even if they do stifle it you can sac it to cabal therapy to clear the rest of the way.

[Zerog]

Currently running a UBR build with wish & Past in flames. Having trouble against Chalice Post board (mostly maverick)
Which card(s) do you recommend? I've been thinking about meltdown instead of the usual hurkyl's recall. Pulverize is too high cost(2 mountains are hard to come by). Been playing with explosives, but they're pretty useless.

Current Sideboard:
4 dread of night
3 Bounce spells (changing from 3 wipe away to 2 chain 1 echoing truth. CB Has been hiding its power level the last weeks in our local meta)
6 Wish targets - Empty, Duress, Tendrils, Iggy, Massacre, Infest
3 open slots - This is where i'd like something to deal with the chalice, maybe some other sweet wish target.

Dredge/Grave hate is abscent. But i don't feel the need of any.

Also, this is my first post on the source! Yay me!

[DerFern]

I would board in the swarms versus rug, that is a bolt that is not pointed at your head (probably giving you about an extra 1/2 turn on average since their deck is all 3's) and a stifle that is not used on a something else. even if they do stifle it you can sac it to cabal therapy to clear the rest of the way.

Is Stifle really a problem for you guys? The only valid target (except for fetchlands which you should be able to play around) is the storm trigger. And if we have enugh storm count to tendrils them out then there should either be a Duress in the yard (PiF) or revealed with AdN. In my experience, the biggest problem against RUG ist getting to play your combo, not actually winning from that spot.

Downsides of Xantid Swarm in my opinion:
-you HAVE to fetch Tropical/Bayou to play it, so you´ll most definitely have mana issues from then on
-Delver of Secrets
-Lightning Bolt
-Stifle
-it needs one turn to have an impact. During that time, our opponent has 8 Cantrips. 4 Stifle and 4 Bolt to get a solution

So no, I would not board the in.
You should only consider Swarms in matchups where you either want to punish you opponent for boarding out their removal or against decks that can´t handle them (Reanimator otP, Show & Tell Decks, Merfolk) already.

[aaronm678]

Currently running a UBR build with wish & Past in flames. Having trouble against Chalice Post board (mostly maverick)
Which card(s) do you recommend? I've been thinking about meltdown instead of the usual hurkyl's recall. Pulverize is too high cost(2 mountains are hard to come by). Been playing with explosives, but they're pretty useless.

Current Sideboard:
4 dread of night
3 Bounce spells (changing from 3 wipe away to 2 chain 1 echoing truth. CB Has been hiding its power level the last weeks in our local meta)
6 Wish targets - Empty, Duress, Tendrils, Iggy, Massacre, Infest
3 open slots - This is where i'd like something to deal with the chalice, maybe some other sweet wish target.

Dredge/Grave hate is abscent. But i don't feel the need of any.

Also, this is my first post on the source! Yay me!

This is where the abrupt decay splash works very well - I would recommend a green source and 3 abrupt decay over the wipe away - it deals with both chalice and counterbalance

[dune2k]

Currently running a UBR build with wish & Past in flames. Having trouble against Chalice Post board (mostly maverick)
Which card(s) do you recommend? I've been thinking about meltdown instead of the usual hurkyl's recall. Pulverize is too high cost(2 mountains are hard to come by). Been playing with explosives, but they're pretty useless.

I'd also use Meltdown in this case. It has the big advantage of having an "XR"-CC, so you can play around chalice on 1 if you need to & if it's a chalice on 0 that's bothering you, Meltdown just costs R.

[Zerog]

This is where the abrupt decay splash works very well - I would recommend a green source and 3 abrupt decay over the wipe away - it deals with both chalice and counterbalance

I've tried that. The manabase was too shaky. There is the strickt UB build in main with green splash in sideboard which seems quite good. But i believe you need atleast 2 grim tutors.

I'm gonna try with meltdown. the low cmc seems good.

[mike1987]

I've tried that. The manabase was too shaky. There is the strickt UB build in main with green splash in sideboard which seems quite good. But i believe you need atleast 2 grim tutors.

I'm gonna try with meltdown. the low cmc seems good.

With eight fetches, it shouldn't be a problem. If not you can always try to play more than 1 green source, i.e trops and bayou. To sidetrack, do you guys believe grim tutor belongs in the main 60 or sideboard? If it's in the SB, the chances of getting it via burning wish will be higher.

[Lans89]

This is my current list:

4x Lotus Petal
4x Lion’s Eye Diamond

1x Tendrils Of Agony
1x Past in Flames
1x Ad Nauseam
3x Burning Wish
4x Infernal Tutor
4x Cabal Ritual
4x dark Ritual

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Gitaxian Probe
3x Duress
4x Cabal Therapy

4x Polluted Delta
2x Misty Rainforest
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Verdant Catacombs
2x Underground Sea
1x Tropical Island
1x Volcanic Island
1x Badlands
1x Island
1x Swamp

Sideboard
4x Dark Confidant
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Past in Flames
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Eye of Nowhere
1x Grim Tutor
1x Duress
1x Pyroclasm

First I had a Meltdown sb in place of the Duress, but i didn't use it much and needed something to tutor while having an useless Burning Wish in hand..
Dark Confidant is still working for me, but I noticed most people dropped it!

[MTG Junkie]

[QUOTE=mike1987;687661]With eight fetches, it shouldn't be a problem. If not you can always try to play more than 1 green source, i.e trops and bayou. To sidetrack, do you guys believe grim tutor belongs in the main 60 or sideboard? If it's in the SB, the chances of getting it via burning wish will be higher.[/QUOT

Was asking myself the same thing about Grim Tutor a few weeks ago when I picked up my second one.

Iv found 2 GT main makes your already shakey Ad Nauseam much worse. Another thing is, is I believe that 2 Grim Tutors main wantS Igg over PIF.

The one pro I liked was you dont need hellbent. Witch is super helpful of f an AnN flop that doesn't have LED in it.

Now that we have PIF Grim Tutor is better as a back up plan,better in the board.

[Anselm]

In a tournament last weekend, I tried a couple of Sensei's Divining Tops in the sideboard, mainly against discard. They were awful, making me keep bad hands and just all around too slow. Think I might want an IGG in the sb against non-blue decks as it's faster than PiF when it works with LEDs. Still unsure about the best plan against RUG Delver. I used to have a couple of City of Traitors there, might test those again.

[Zieby]

Hi all,

Reading and playing for a long time, most Dutch legacy/vintage players will know who I am.
I just wanted to tell you guys what I am working with and would like to know what you all think about it.

The MD I play at this moment.
4 X Polluted Delta
3 X Scalding Tarn
2 X Verdant Catacomb
2 X Underground Sea
1 X Tropical Island
1 X Badlands
1 X Island
1 X Swamp

4 X Cabal Ritual
4 X Dark Ritual
4 X Lion's Eye Diamond
4 X Lotus Petal

4 X Brainstorm
4 X Ponder
4 X Gitaxian Probe

4 X Infernal Tutor
2 X Snapcaster Mage
1 X Grim Tutor

4 X Cabal Therapy
3 X Duress

1 X Ad Nauseam
1 X Past in Flames
1 X Tendrils of Agony

I am still not sure about the Snapcasters, they can be really good or a brick in your hand.
I see people with 2x Grim Tutor and a extra land, or 2x Preordain in its place.
The second GT can also be a brick and the extra land can make you flood more often, the Preordains will let you dick deeper, but they are no business that let you win the game.

The mana base is really good, I prefer the Topical over the Volcanic because of the comment Emidln made.
If you play Abrupt Decay, you never want a Bayou and a Sea, but you want the Sea and a Tropical.
The Badlands is there for the Fetch lands, this way I can fetch all colors with all fetches.

The Sb is where it gets interesting.
SB: 3 Dread of Night
SB: 3 Xantid Swarm
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Tropical Island
I have 2 open slots and don’t know for sure what I need in those slots.

I love Carpet against the BUG and RUG Tempo lists.
Decay + Swarm will be to much for Miracles.
Dread + Decay is a solid plan against Maverick
And Swarm against S&T is strong but not great.

I do not think I need extra discard in the SB, but at this point I almost think that 1 extra DoN and 1 extra Carpet will do the trick.

Would love to here your thoughts.

Greetz Zieby

[Goosen]

Go for some bounce or/and a EtW else you can not beat a Leyline of Sanctity. Maybe not the most played card but still.

[Koby]

Again.

I haven't played the Snapcaster build in a number of weeks. I changed them for a 2nd Grim Tutor and the 4th Duress. The only concern I would have against BUG builds compared to RUG is that they typicaly do bring in Extirpate/Surgical as an additional form of hate, and taking out their creature removal, along with their discard. Being exposed to their discard is the thing you want to minimize. There isn't much in this sideboard to handle that. The 2nd Tendrils is definitely necessary here.

Overal BUG is a tough matchup however. Discard + Counterspells + Wasteland is a tough trifecta to beat.

[GoldenCid]

Sorry guys, maybe it's not very comman for you, but it's for me. What is our best option against burn??

[Koby]

Sorry guys, maybe it's not very comman for you, but it's for me. What is our best option against burn??

Win before they deal 20 damage?

[GoldenCid]

Win before they deal 20 damage?

I'm having troubles for that. Maybe i'm not lucky but they have almost perfect hand all the time. I'm not sure but i'm running 14 lands and 7 discard spots. I have a high mull ratio.

[Koby]

I'm having troubles for that. Maybe i'm not lucky but they have almost perfect hand all the time. I'm not sure but i'm running 14 lands and 7 discard spots. I have a high mull ratio.

The earliest Burn can goldfish is turn 3, and that's by damaging themselves with Flame Rift and playing 2 Goblin Guides. Given that, ANT will more often than not be faster than this goldfish without having to use Ad Nauseam. Nevermind that event a partial, non-lethal Tendrils will buy sufficient time to find and cast Past in Flames to combo off again. I suggest you keep practicing the limits of the goldfish with ANT to learn when you can or cannot go off in face of pressure.

[Namida]

I haven't played the Snapcaster build in a number of weeks. I changed them for a 2nd Grim Tutor and the 4th Duress.

Are you still using the sideboard with the Lands, Abrupt Decays, and the Virtue's Ruins?

[Koby]

Are you still using the sideboard with the Lands, Abrupt Decays, and the Virtue's Ruins?

I moved some of the duals into the main (Bayou/Trop main) and a backup Trop and 3 Karakas SB.

[GoldenCid]

The earliest Burn can goldfish is turn 3, and that's by damaging themselves with Flame Rift and playing 2 Goblin Guides. Given that, ANT will more often than not be faster than this goldfish without having to use Ad Nauseam. Nevermind that event a partial, non-lethal Tendrils will buy sufficient time to find and cast Past in Flames to combo off again. I suggest you keep practicing the limits of the goldfish with ANT to learn when you can or cannot go off in face of pressure.

Thx, that's a better answer to me. I'll keep trying.

[Arew]

I likely can't get a hold of another Grim after destroying my binder at GP Chicago to pick up my first(yay!). However, I still think that the 8th discard spell over the 2nd Snap is correct, but I'm not sure if a singleton Snap is worth it over something like Preordain. Thoughts?

A decent way to goldfish against Burn is to set up a scenario where your goldfish always plays 1 land a turn, and has infinite lava spikes in their hand (but each piece of disruption is -3 damage). T1 - Take 3, T2 - Take 6, etc.. It kills you on their T4 and find that it's around average with normal burn speeds, if not a *tiny* bit faster than their average goldfish.

[ponder]

I put my ANT deck down this week. Played a local with Uwb blade, deck is way underpowered. Time to resleeve the grim tutors.

[egosum]

Yet another top 16 in a 100+ people tournament. Stuck in my UBg(r) list, still thinking the plays that GT gives are far superior than the flexibility BW grants. Made a 5-2 losing the final and decisive match against MUD (2-1) because a terrible missplay of mine in addition to a topdeck of him. The otehr loss was against BUG which is a bad match up, just happened the regular: discard, some pressure and well played countermagic destroyed my hope of winning this match.

http://www.manainfinito.com/coverage/lisis-top-16-lcl-2012-noviembre

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[ThomasDowd]

Thinking about cutting AN. I maybe win 1 of 20 games with the card and at that point it is just not worth it. it's greatest advantage is those turn 1-2 kills but even then i'd almost rather have empty.

95% of my games are all PiF. Where I can use my life total a bit more to just draw cards and buy time.

I understand how awesome it is versus the clockless control decks but it doe not come up enough for me and at that point the PiF route is just easier and more flexible, even versus grave hate.

going to give it some more thought and testing.

[Jessenator]

Yet another top 16 in a 100+ people tournament. Stuck in my UBg(r) list, still thinking the plays that GT gives are far superior than the flexibility BW grants. Made a 5-2 losing the final and decisive match against MUD (2-1) because a terrible missplay of mine in addition to a topdeck of him. The otehr loss was against BUG which is a bad match up, just happened the regular: discard, some pressure and well played countermagic destroyed my hope of winning this match.

http://www.manainfinito.com/coverage/lisis-top-16-lcl-2012-noviembre

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

Congrats on your finish! I actually was just looking at ANT lists and I saw yours! Looks very good!

Thankfully I just won a tournament giving me a free Grim Tutor. But what do you think of the deck with just one in the mainboard, what would you replace it with if you didn't have a second one (another hand discard, preordain, Chrome Mox)?? I don't think I can find another one in my area haha! I do have a few concerns about the deck though. How's putting more duals in the deck affected the mana base? How's the 4 pieces of Graveyard hate in the side?

[Final Fortune]

Thinking about cutting AN. I maybe win 1 of 20 games with the card and at that point it is just not worth it. it's greatest advantage is those turn 1-2 kills but even then i'd almost rather have empty.

95% of my games are all PiF. Where I can use my life total a bit more to just draw cards and buy time.

I understand how awesome it is versus the clockless control decks but it doe not come up enough for me and at that point the PiF route is just easier and more flexible, even versus grave hate.

going to give it some more thought and testing.

I've had similar thoughts, the idea being Ad Nauseam is more of a turn 2 combo card where you've already been subjected to Thought Seize or Counterbalance compared to Empty the Warrens which is more of a turn 1 combo card with a delayed win timer that has a higher utility vs RUG, Merfolk etc. than Ad Nauseam does, and being able to cut Chrome Mox completely is amazing.

Being able to unload turn 1 is a lot more valuable than being able to unload turn 2 in terms of bypassing hate and anything Empty the Warrens isn't particularly good against then Pif is amazing against with the exception of aggro, and honestly aggro just gets hit with Ill Gotten Gains post-board.

[ac3eb]

But what do you think of the deck with just one in the mainboard, what would you replace it with if you didn't have a second one (another hand discard, preordain, Chrome Mox)?? I don't think I can find another one in my area haha! I do have a few concerns about the deck though. How's putting more duals in the deck affected the mana base? How's the 4 pieces of Graveyard hate in the side?

It's not ideal but you can always replace the 2nd GT with a Personal Tutor. It's not that bad tbh. Either that or a 2nd preordain as you want to be able to dig for the 5 tutors (vs 7 in the BW lists).

[ThomasDowd]

I've had similar thoughts, the idea being Ad Nauseam is more of a turn 2 combo card where you've already been subjected to Thought Seize or Counterbalance compared to Empty the Warrens which is more of a turn 1 combo card with a delayed win timer that has a higher utility vs RUG, Merfolk etc. than Ad Nauseam does, and being able to cut Chrome Mox completely is amazing.

Being able to unload turn 1 is a lot more valuable than being able to unload turn 2 in terms of bypassing hate and anything Empty the Warrens isn't particularly good against then Pif is amazing against with the exception of aggro, and honestly aggro just gets hit with Ill Gotten Gains post-board.

Even being thoughtseized they take probably the piece that enables the line. Also a blind CB trigger can just ruin your day if they happen to hit relevant cmc(0,1, 2, or 5), when pulling the trigger blind. I have not really touched IGG in a while, I was able to turn 2 a burn player with PiF just fine and also had about one more turn to live and set it up if need be.

The amount of cards that need to be in your hand to enable an early AN is pretty large (rit + IT + LED + 1 more mana and that is with zero floating) and whiffing with AN is a very, very real thing, also with that hand it is almost more servicable to PiF, if another card is a single ritual you win on the spot, if it is another LED or petal you can probably almost get there, instead of flipping and hoping not to die or not flip more action to AN. Do not know, will look into it some more. Also AN has severely diminishing returns as the game goes on, where PiF just gets better. The same argument can be said about their roles in the early game but flipped, so I guess there is that.

Maybe I am just using it incorrectly, and should just be using it as a draw 6-7 (comes up quite frequently).

[aaronm678]

Thinking about cutting AN. I maybe win 1 of 20 games with the card and at that point it is just not worth it. it's greatest advantage is those turn 1-2 kills but even then i'd almost rather have empty.

95% of my games are all PiF. Where I can use my life total a bit more to just draw cards and buy time.

I understand how awesome it is versus the clockless control decks but it doe not come up enough for me and at that point the PiF route is just easier and more flexible, even versus grave hate.

going to give it some more thought and testing.


I don't think it's worth it to cut -- it's excellent against any slower discard deck (most BUG, Esper, etc), and it's pretty damn good against any straight slow deck (usually various versions of U/W), and it gives you a tutor target when your opponent has maindeck graveyard hate (which is a thing now that Deathrite Shaman is a card). If it were only in there for turn 1-ness, I'd say cut it for another Grim Tutor, Iggy, or Past in Flames, but it does do other things. I do board it out fairly often, but it brings an awful lot to the table for just 1 slot -- even if you're winning just 1/20 games with it, that's probably worth it for a single slot in the 75.

[Megadeus]

Is Grim Tutor a necessity? I understand that it is a very good card, but is it the end all be all card for the deck? I am debating playing this deck, but This is the one card I probably could not aquire.

[ponder]

@Megadeus
Grim tutor adds so much consistency to both the burning wish and 2x grim version that is definitely is. I didn't own grims for awhile I tried with out them and at that point TES is a much better deck.

[JamieW89]

Grim Tutor adds the much needed 6th and possibly 7th business spell to the wishless version. In the UBr lists it's the best tutor for the board if you want the infernal tutors main (which you should).

On the idea of cutting Ad Nauseam for Empty the Warrens, I'm considering it too. Goblins are the better plan against most tempo decks and often still fine against aggro. You want to kill most opponents with a tutor chain or a graveyard engine anyways in g1. You can still board the Ad Nauseam to bring in against slow/discard decks or decks with too much graveyard hate. And it's pretty awesome to play ANT without the AN :P.

[Namida]

I moved some of the duals into the main (Bayou/Trop main) and a backup Trop and 3 Karakas SB.

I just bought two Grim Tutors last week, so I'm about to start testing.

I'm familiar with Storm, but I have never played an Ad Nauseam deck in any event.

Is 15 lands enough? I've never played a Storm deck with less than 16, so I have a second Volcanic Island in place of the Duress you were talking about. I'm also not entirely sure about playing green duals in the main because of Wasteland. Do you find it to ever get you in trouble? Also, if I don't make that switch...the original 4 Therapy/3 Duress choice was because of the Snapcaster Mages in the emidln's list, right? I haven't made the switch yet, but I'm guessing Duress is going to be better since I'm not quite a Legacy Jedi yet so my educated guesses when I use Therapy are more guess than education right now.

And finally, what is your sideboard looking like if you made those changes between the main and sideboards?

[ac3eb]

While we're in the Grim Tutor discussion, could someone familiar with the UBr (burning wish) and the UBg (2 grim tutor) version do a quick summary of the pro's and con's of each build? I do know the main details such as abrupt decay being great at clearing CB's, and burning wishes giving you an alternative win con with the EtW. However, I'm curious as to which build is a bit more resilient, quicker, etc. Also, in the BW build, do you usually burning wish for a grim tutor the turn before going off, or is it somehow incorporated in the combo turn?

[aaronm678]

I just bought two Grim Tutors last week, so I'm about to start testing.

I'm familiar with Storm, but I have never played an Ad Nauseam deck in any event.

Is 15 lands enough? I've never played a Storm deck with less than 16, so I have a second Volcanic Island in place of the Duress you were talking about. I'm also not entirely sure about playing green duals in the main because of Wasteland. Do you find it to ever get you in trouble? Also, if I don't make that switch...the original 4 Therapy/3 Duress choice was because of the Snapcaster Mages in the emidln's list, right? I haven't made the switch yet, but I'm guessing Duress is going to be better since I'm not quite a Legacy Jedi yet so my educated guesses when I use Therapy are more guess than education right now.

And finally, what is your sideboard looking like if you made those changes between the main and sideboards?

I can't imagine needing a 2nd volcanic, since PiF is easily castable off LED. I think if you're not on a MD green source that 16th land is either an island or a fetch that can get one. I think 16 land is correct, but I've always preferred land heavy decks.

On the MD trop, wasteland definitely comes up occasionally, I know I've lost games because it wasn't a basic...just playtest with both configurations, then decide whether the extra SB space is worth it (this is by far the most common change I make to my 60, actually).

On Duress vs Therapy, I like duress a little more than therapy anyway since I dislike Snapcaster - either way, the deck is going to play very similarly with a 4/3 vs 3/4 split.

On SB, mine is currently 1 trop, 1 iggy, 3 thoughtseize, 3 karakas, 2 chain of vapor, 3 abrupt decay, 2 maverick board wipe cards. I am testing 3 Xantid over a chain, iggy, and seize, and it seems OK to me in a lot of matchups, haven't really made a decision. If you want a 2nd Trop in the SB, cut a Chain or a Karakas, or you can probably cut one of the Maverick cards, as that deck hasn't been popular enough recently to be worth dedicated SB slots in many metas.


On grim vs bw - some people play bw because it gives them maindeck outs to hate bears. The biggest reason I dislike BW is it stretches the mana so far. Other downsides are it obviously loses at least 3 SB slots. The UBg version downsides are mainly ad nauseam is awful (Grim = 6 life), and it's slightly slower (generally can't just vomit out 12 goblins).

[Dark Ritual]

Sometimes I think about cutting the 1 volcanic, but it is occasionally quite useful. I was even able to masquerade as RUG delver w/a basic island against bant once in game 1.

Burning wish is awful because this deck is slow and wish doesn't get any good cards or it has to grab a grim tutor, which takes approx. infinite mana to combo with. And if you're always wishing for grim tutor why not just play grim tutor over wish? It saves you lots of sideboard space.

A lot of discussion is happening around AdN. The main problem I have is that if I draw the 1 of ad nauseam it is usually a lot better than drawing the 1 of PiF without a tutor unless I also have the 1 of tendrils. So if AdN is replaced directly with an IGG or PiF then we're reducing our live draws. Also, gravehate is a thing always side in against me if they have it so relying on IGG or PiF completely doesn't sound good at all and putting an AdN in the board to circumvent this problem doesn't really do much as it is still taking up a slot. Also really don't want to add IGG when blue is dominating right now, and we have to be able to use our LED and/or lotus petal heavy draws to combo out (I know this has come up several times in the games I've played where I draw lots of artifact mana so I can't PiF FTW.)

[JamieW89]

@Namida
If the deck wants to use Ad Nauseam fairly often I'd play the 1st mox over the 16th land. In a version which hardly uses it a 16th land would be fine. Therapy is better than duress if there's alot of permanent hate cards in people their MD's (e.g. Thalia). If there's more blue decks I'd play 4 Duress.
In the UBr version you can run a 2nd Volcanic if you want to run Pulverize in the board as a 3rd red source. If you're splashing green in the board I'd prefer a MD trop though.

@ac3eb
Wish is better if there's loads of Maverick-esque decks where you need solutions. It is, however, a terrible business spell fairly often. The wish version is also slightly faster. Wishing for tutor can happen on the combo turn or before, depending on your mana etc.
The UBg version has more stable mana, a better sideboard and high consistency.

@Dark Ritual
We'd be replacing the Ad Nauseam with Empty the Warrens, not an additional GY engine. Empty is a great draw, although our limited access to red mana makes it slightly worse than Ad Nauseam to just draw.

[Megadeus]

Here's my current list. I'm pretty sure that I got it off of someone on here though I'm not sure who. I just put it onto cockatrice and then changed the SB up to my likings.

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
2 Preordain
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Burning Wish
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Swamp
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Badlands
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
SB: 1 Virtue's Ruin
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Perish
SB: 3 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Eye of Nowhere
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Angel of Despair

[aaronm678]

Here's my current list. I'm pretty sure that I got it off of someone on here though I'm not sure who. I just put it onto cockatrice and then changed the SB up to my likings.

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
2 Preordain
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Burning Wish
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Swamp
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Badlands
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
SB: 1 Virtue's Ruin
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Perish
SB: 3 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Eye of Nowhere
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Angel of Despair


You have way too many BW targets, you should probably cut, at the very least,
Shattering Spree
Perish
Virtue's Ruin or Massacre
Eye of Nowhere

And try to have some semblance of a sideboard. Also, FWIW, I don't really like the Angel Plan -- that matchup isn't difficult enough to warrant such a specific sideboard slot (particularly when it's not even that awesome of a sideboard slot). Just board in either discard or Xantid Swarms and race them, Tendrils is pretty easily a turn faster than S&T, since it generally takes them so long to assemble their combo, bringing in a narrow card that doesn't help the racing plan doesn't seem like what you want to do (Also, not irrelevant, it forces you to board out Ad Nauseam, which is excellent in the matchup).

[Jessenator]

Here's my current list. I'm pretty sure that I got it off of someone on here though I'm not sure who. I just put it onto cockatrice and then changed the SB up to my likings.

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
2 Preordain
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Burning Wish
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Swamp
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Badlands
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
SB: 1 Virtue's Ruin
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Perish
SB: 3 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Eye of Nowhere
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Angel of Despair

How do you expect to beat Counterbalance with this list? :(

[Jessenator]

While we're in the Grim Tutor discussion, could someone familiar with the UBr (burning wish) and the UBg (2 grim tutor) version do a quick summary of the pro's and con's of each build? I do know the main details such as abrupt decay being great at clearing CB's, and burning wishes giving you an alternative win con with the EtW. However, I'm curious as to which build is a bit more resilient, quicker, etc. Also, in the BW build, do you usually burning wish for a grim tutor the turn before going off, or is it somehow incorporated in the combo turn?

I never thought Burning Wish was a bad card the whole tournament I played in yesterday except for when I played against RUG Delver. The card is simply too slow in the matchup when you're trying to find hand disruption. I usually just Burning Wish for a Duress / Inquisition if there's nothing to do. Burning Wish also makes your Ad Nauseam more consistent because you're running more "tutors" than the 2x Grim Tutor in the mainboard version. I actually mained a Bayou over the 2nd basic island, and a Tropical Island in the sideboard for 3x Xantid Swarm and Reverent Silence! Burning Wish for that was pretty much the nuts all day. Just Burning Wishing for a Duress is an extremely powerful play against slower blue decks. Pyroclasm in the sideboard buys you a ton of time or the ability to kill hatebears. Also it allows you to win with cards like Empty the Warrens if they have some sort of weird board state, or if you just want to go off with 10+ goblins. In summary, I think Burning Wish is extremely good in my opinion! Having a Grim Tutor in the SB is extremely important in the Burning Wish version though.

Using Burning Wish version makes you rely on the red mana sources in the deck more than I like. The 2x Grim Version is only splashing red mana for Past in Flames in the mainboard. I think that makes the mana base more consistent. You can splash a green dual in the main for sideboard cards like Xantid Swarm and Abrupt Decay. Although you may need to sideboard in awkward cards like Chain of Vapor in order to deal with hate. That's something Burning Wish decks have an advantage over. Sometimes you simply cannot win game 1 due to random enchantment and board states. I think the consistency with the Grim Tutor version is where the advantage is at. Its basically the UB ANT deck with a small red/green splash.

Reverent Silence is pretty sick when you Wish for it, the look on your opponent's face is pretty much priceless when he has 2 counterbalance up..

[Megadeus]

How do you expect to beat Counterbalance with this list? :(

Thats kind of what I am worried about. Im new to storm though. What are my outs?

[aaronm678]

Thats kind of what I am worried about. Im new to storm though. What are my outs?

Make your sideboard an actual sideboard instead of a maindeck extension. I'd go to

1x Iggy
1x Pyroclasm
1x Tendrils
1x EtW
1x Thoughtseize

For wish targets, then you have room for Abrupt Decays in the board, and you still have some extra space. You can probably also cut the Tendrils from the board, as you'll generally have a line that doesn't need to wish for tendrils.

It's always a mistake to run a million wish targets in the SB - the card isn't meant to get any of 10 options from the board.

[ponder]

Your board needs a grim tutor

[egosum]

Although you may need to sideboard in awkward cards like Chain of Vapor in order to deal with hate. That's something Burning Wish decks have an advantage over.

Sorry? Chain of vapor is just insane in any ANT build, it gives everything you may want for just 1 mana and at instant speed: threshold, Storm (a bunch), and anti hate piece. I just tell you to reconsider it and play it (3x) in the side to see how good it is. Is basically the most versatile sideboard slot you can have and is super efficient at what it does.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[Sigyn]

Sorry? Chain of vapor is just insane in any ANT build, it gives everything you may want for just 1 mana and at instant speed: threshold, Storm (a bunch), and anti hate piece. I just tell you to reconsider it and play it (3x) in the side to see how good it is. Is basically the most versatile sideboard slot you can have and is super efficient at what it does.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

I've been thinking about that while i was building my SB, why running chain of Vapor is better than running Dread of night+Abrupt decay instead?,
i mean, asuming you're playing with a 2 Grim tutor MD build (as i am), don't you think a SB with Abrupt decay + Dread of night can handle GW's hatebears more efficiently?, the only pairing not covered with a SB like that is MUD, but is not a common pairing.

[Koby]

I wish I had 2-3 Chain of Vapor yesterday in the tournament I played. Playing only 1 is a waste. Virtue's Ruin vs Dread of Night -- the former allows you to play more room in your Sideboard against Maverick (2 cards vs 4 Dread of Night). Going forward, I'm playing 2 Chain at minimum.

Here's my current board for UBrg ANT:
3 Karakas
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Xantid Swarm
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Virtue's Ruin

My maindeck is the same as Inaki's (egosum), however I'm thinking that I might cut one land for Chrome Mox. It would be nice to make Ad Nauseum feasible for matches where being fast is important (Belcher, Elves, Burn, etc)

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I wish I had 2-3 Chain of Vapor yesterday in the tournament I played. Playing only 1 is a waste. Virtue's Ruin vs Dread of Night -- the former allows you to play more room in your Sideboard against Maverick (2 cards vs 4 Dread of Night). Going forward, I'm playing 2 Chain at minimum.

Here's my current board for UBrg ANT:
3 Karakas
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Xantid Swarm
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Virtue's Ruin

Maverick is back?

[Koby]

Maverick is back?

Not at all, but killing Gaddock Teeg is still a thing. I hear the Junk decks still play him, and possible Thalia or Canonist. Luckily, they don't also run Mother of Runes, which is nice.

I hedged against a lot of Mavercik by running 3 Dread of Night, then ended up losing to triple Hymn to Tourach followed by Nether Void. Ya, real decks.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Not at all, but killing Gaddock Teeg is still a thing. I hear the Junk decks still play him, and possible Thalia or Canonist. Luckily, they don't also run Mother of Runes, which is nice.

I hedged against a lot of Mavercik by running 3 Dread of Night, then ended up losing to triple Hymn to Tourach followed by Nether Void. Ya, real decks.

Why didn't you win on turn one?

[egosum]

I've been thinking about that while i was building my SB, why running chain of Vapor is better than running Dread of night+Abrupt decay instead?,
i mean, asuming you're playing with a 2 Grim tutor MD build (as i am), don't you think a SB with Abrupt decay + Dread of night can handle GW's hatebears more efficiently?, the only pairing not covered with a SB like that is MUD, but is not a common pairing.

My current sideboard:


SB: 4 Xantid Swarm
SB: 3 Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Karakas

Enough to deal with bears, Dread of night while it is excellent at what it does, is just too narrow, I would only consider it in a ver dedicated G/W meta, which is not my case.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[Koby]

Why didn't you win on turn one?

Ok I guess it's report time. Or at least this matchup. Actually. I need to my notes to recall what happened. Short n sweet version until I get my notes up later today:

Game 1 - Go off turn 2 or 3.
Game 2 - Leyline on opener, Inquisition my Petal to be able to go off.
Game 3 - Duress my opponent's hand:
Bayou
Dark Ritual
Inquisition of Kozilek
Inquisition of Kozilek
Lilliana of the Veil
Lilliana of the Veil
Sinkhole

Obviously I take the Dark Ritual. Opponent draws 3 lands in a row, plays Inquisition/Sinkhole/Liliana on turns 1/2/3. Turn 5, after having 4 lands in play, he topdecks Nether Void and locks me out.

ya........ I'm cursed

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Ok I guess it's report time. Or at least this matchup. Actually. I need to my notes to recall what happened. Short n sweet version until I get my notes up later today:

Game 1 - Go off turn 2 or 3.
Game 2 - Leyline on opener, Inquisition my Petal to be able to go off.
Game 3 - Duress my opponent's hand:
Bayou
Dark Ritual
Inquisition of Kozilek
Inquisition of Kozilek
Lilliana of the Veil
Lilliana of the Veil
Sinkhole

Obviously I take the Dark Ritual. Opponent draws 3 lands in a row, plays Inquisition/Sinkhole/Liliana on turns 1/2/3. Turn 5, after having 4 lands in play, he topdecks Nether Void and locks me out.

ya........ I'm cursed


Ok did some testing with my own take on GSZ based Junk with multiple goyfs last nite on MTGO.
About the only thing I can say for certain are twofold:

1. This deck has a tough time against monoblack Pox decks.
2. The MTGO casual testing room metagame is comprised of 100% monoblack Pox decks.

There goes that method to testing :\

I'm going to tweak the list a bit and run it in actual 2-man Prizes-on-the-line matches, since that's better testing than in the Tournament Practice room.

P.S.:
Turn 2 on the draw against me: Dark Ritual, Nether Void with Deathrite Shaman in play for me. I hate the people on MTGO sometimes.

[Sigyn]

My current sideboard:


SB: 4 Xantid Swarm
SB: 3 Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Karakas

Enough to deal with bears, Dread of night while it is excellent at what it does, is just too narrow, I would only consider it in a ver dedicated G/W meta, which is not my case.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

I like those 2 Karakas, good against Thalia/Gaddock and also helps against S&T and reanimator, against GW... what is your SB plan?,

Did you try extirpate as GY-hate? (It's also good in the mirror match).

[Koby]

I like those 2 Karakas, good against Thalia/Gaddock and also helps against S&T and reanimator, against GW... what is your SB plan?,

Did you try extirpate as GY-hate? (It's also good in the mirror match).

vs. Reanimator
Out:
-4x Gitaxian Probe
-1x Ponder
-1x Cabal Therapy
-1x Cabal Ritual
-1x Verdant Catacombs
In:
+2x Karakas
+3x Chain of Vapor
+3x Tormod's Crypt

Extirpate is not an ideal card in the mirror. It assumes you already have used a discard spell, in which case, you should already be good to win without Extirpate. Tormod's Crypt is a good against both mirror and Reanimator.

[Sigyn]

I'm definetly gonna try that SB, seems pretty solid. :wink:

Thanks for the answers!

[Sloshthedark]

vs. Reanimator
Out:
-4x Gitaxian Probe
-1x Ponder
-1x Cabal Therapy
-1x Cabal Ritual
-1x Verdant Catacombs
In:
+2x Karakas
+3x Chain of Vapor
+3x Tormod's Crypt

Extirpate is not an ideal card in the mirror. It assumes you already have used a discard spell, in which case, you should already be good to win without Extirpate. Tormod's Crypt is a good against both mirror and Reanimator.


Extirpate is insane in the mirror (aka top-deck lottery) way better than Crypt (which shuts down just one route), I also don't feel comfortable with less than 2 probes, the card is to good, speeds you up and eases the combo turn, also -1 basic rather than fetchland, that doesn't make sense...

[Koby]

Extirpate is insane in the mirror (aka top-deck lottery) way better than Crypt (which shuts down just one route), I also don't feel comfortable with less than 2 probes, the card is to good, speeds you up and eases the combo turn, also -1 basic rather than fetchland, that doesn't make sense...

This was based on Inaki's guide from his tournament report. Extirpate requires you to spend a discard spell to be "ZOMG topdeck lottery", hence 2 cards spent to remove (Infernal Tutor, Cabal Ritual, LED, etc). It's a dead card when you're trying to combo off earlier too - much like Crypt. However, it's free storm and no life loss from Ad Nauseum when you do manage to fire it off. Seems like the consequences of making Extirpate work are outweighed by Crypt's in the matchup, and also good vs Dredge/Reanimator.

I don't disagree with boarding out basics - I did that against Belcher since I don't expect to need to get 3 lands in play ever. Maybe -1 land instead of "fetchland"

[Final Fortune]

Are there any versions of this deck that are currently foregoing the Gitaxian Probe and Cabal Therapy package for Pre-Ordain and Thoughtseize instead? I really dislike both the Burning Wish and Grim Tutor versions of this deck because they are really sub-par threats in comparison to Infernal Tutor, so can the deck just stand on Infernal Tutor and an enlarged cantrip package to find it?

[Koby]

Are there any versions of this deck that are currently foregoing the Gitaxian Probe and Cabal Therapy package for Pre-Ordain and Thoughtseize instead? I really dislike both the Burning Wish and Grim Tutor versions of this deck because they are really sub-par threats in comparison to Infernal Tutor, so can the deck just stand on Infernal Tutor and an enlarged cantrip package to find it?

It would be slower due to the higher cantrip count. The manabase is more solid too, with 4 basics and only 2 Useas. This sounds something similar to what was floating around just after Mystical got banned, so look for lists around August 2010.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

If you play the cantrip heavy builds, you'll get locked out by counterbalance before you can win.

[ThomasDowd]

Are there any versions of this deck that are currently foregoing the Gitaxian Probe and Cabal Therapy package for Pre-Ordain and Thoughtseize instead? I really dislike both the Burning Wish and Grim Tutor versions of this deck because they are really sub-par threats in comparison to Infernal Tutor, so can the deck just stand on Infernal Tutor and an enlarged cantrip package to find it?

ari's old primer addresses that issue quite well. and a lot of the grim tutor builds have kind of moved back to this style of build but PiF instead of IGG since it is about 70% of the time better. also with only IT you leave yourself cold to extraction

http://www.gatheringmagic.com/legacy-storm-primer/

you kind of need to have 5-6 tutors to reliably find one in a timely matter. i personally think 6 is fine, and sometimes will board out the 6th grim to board in some answers in the slower match ups and sometimes where i know the life on the loop may matter.

[ThomasDowd]

This is the list i am currently on. I played it at a local event for some underground seas. lost to junk because he had turn one duress > extraction in g1, almost got there still but took some bad lines, also drew awful, drew all my engines and lands forever. a ponder flipped up 3 rainforest at one point, I showed my opponent and told him it was the worst ponder ever, but i guess it could have been a brainstorm. stole a game from counterbalance i punted on my window in g1 i got game 2 and game 3 he blind flipped a 4 to my reverent silence on turn 2 (supreme verdict) and then blind flipped a top to my next turn duress. almost got there still. and lost to a bug player. i played relatively poorly all day due to most likely having a fever and being congested and sick as all hell and kind of hungover. don't drink while your sick kids.


over all i liked it. the dreads were never needed. I never missed AN except for maybe against the CB player, but i think i like abrupt decay better, hopefully CB will get pushed out of the metagame soon with bug being a thing. also beating bad CB players is pretty easy, they are trigger happy with flipping top. Xantid Swarm is AMAZING! he always got forced but if he ever stuck i pretty much win the game on the spot. going forward I am -4 dread of night + 2 karakas +1 swarm and then one mystery spot. I am ok with boarding in 7-8+ cards for one horrible match up. everything else is easy. maybe an IGG. need to work on the board some more and the boarding plan to figure how bad i want all the anti CB hate and if i can fit it all in (not all the swarms come in).


4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Grim Tutor
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony

2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:

4 Abrupt Decay
1 Bayou
2 Chain of Vapor
4 dread of night
1 Reverent Silence
3 Xantid Swarm

[Koby]

I can echo that Xantid is amazing. Dreads were also useless (since no one plays Maverick anymore) 2 Virtue's Ruin would be better use of those slots if there's a worry. I want to put IGG back into the board against midrangey non-counter decks, as partial Mind Twist is still useful in shutting them down. It also gives us something to IT for in the early turns when we can only generate 4 mana post-IT -- IT + LED + ritual, mind twist them, rebuy those 3 cards to get another shot for Ad Nauseam.

[dune2k]

I can echo that Xantid is amazing. Dreads were also useless (since no one plays Maverick anymore) 2 Virtue's Ruin would be better use of those slots if there's a worry. I want to put IGG back into the board against midrangey non-counter decks, as partial Mind Twist is still useful in shutting them down. It also gives us something to IT for in the early turns when we can only generate 4 mana post-IT -- IT + LED + ritual, mind twist them, rebuy those 3 cards to get another shot for Ad Nauseam.

And playing Mind Twist will make you lose either the game or the match...it still is banned in Legacy.

[Koby]

And playing Mind Twist will make you lose either the game or the match...it still is banned in Legacy.

WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Re-read the quote.

[dune2k]

WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Re-read the quote.

Woops, skipped the "partial"... ;)
Reading the post again: thanks for that usage of IGG. :)

[Tammit67]

Having problems convincing myself this version of storm is worthwhile. I usually combo off using PiF, and that just got harder with all the Deathrites running around. And thanks to NoVa, hymn will probably be on the uptick. Thoughts?

[Koby]

Having problems convincing myself this version of storm is worthwhile. I usually combo off using PiF, and that just got harder with all the Deathrites running around. And thanks to NoVa, hymn will probably be on the uptick. Thoughts?

I agree, and have put together TES instead for now. Being faster is one way to ignore the shift to BUG. And until the metagame adopts EE more readily, EtW is a better path to beating them.

[Ricca84]

Having problems convincing myself this version of storm is worthwhile. I usually combo off using PiF, and that just got harder with all the Deathrites running around. And thanks to NoVa, hymn will probably be on the uptick. Thoughts?

Vs BUG the plan really depends on his first drop ( delver or deathrites ).

ETW is always a usefull plan.

vs no race Ad nauseam is awesome.
vs race you can go off with PiF/tutor chain (please pay attenction to surgical/extirpate)/natural tendrils.

I really like dark confidant from SB in this metagame.
Really dislike cantrips ANT, and think that Burning wish is the way. Until EE is not on some maindeck, ETW on G1 can wins alone so much games.

[Final Fortune]

Vs BUG the plan really depends on his first drop ( delver or deathrites ).

ETW is always a usefull plan.

vs no race Ad nauseam is awesome.
vs race you can go off with PiF/tutor chain (please pay attenction to surgical/extirpate)/natural tendrils.

I really like dark confidant from SB in this metagame.
Really dislike cantrips ANT, and think that Burning wish is the way. Until EE is not on some maindeck, ETW on G1 can wins alone so much games.

The problem with Burning Wish is that it exposes the manabase to Wasteland vs aggro-control, regardless tho' I think Ad Nauseam(s) have to remain in the MD because Deathrite Shaman counters Past in Flames and BUG control decks are playing Pernicious Deads and/or Engineered Explosives quite heavily.

Right now, I'm debating whether or not I want 2 Grim Tutors or 2 Ad Nauseam and 1 Empty the Warrens in the deck, where it's better to draw your threats and cast them directly instead of drawing an inefficent tutor for your threats.

I actually find it kind of odd people are saying Pre-Ordain based decks lose to Counterbalance, I actually find Miracles lands Counterbalance more against the Gitaxian Probe version because you usually sand bag Cabal Therpay instead of casting it aggressively like Thoughtseize. You may win a little slower by having a reduced total number of threats, but its offset by pretty much always disruptiong them as soon as possible

[aaronm678]

Originally Posted by Ricca84
I really like dark confidant from SB in this metagame.


I agree that if you're having trouble with BUG, Dark Confidant in the board is quite good -- pretty often, their only answers in the entire 75 will be Abrupt Decay, which isn't a terribly efficient way of killing it anyway. I don't particularly like going for Goblins against them in any games...it seems like every single version runs either Deed or Explosives in the 75, there's no reason to turn on an otherwise pretty bad card against us.


Originally Posted by Tammit67
Having problems convincing myself this version of storm is worthwhile. I usually combo off using PiF, and that just got harder with all the Deathrites running around. And thanks to NoVa, hymn will probably be on the uptick. Thoughts?

I haven't actually had that much trouble with BUG -- it's probably slightly unfavorable preboard, depending on the version, but I think that can be handled after SB. Deathrite is a little bit annoying, but it's also a little awkward for them. If they play it early, it's not aggressive at all, so they're in an awkward place where they have to leave up B every turn, and we have pretty much infinite time to combo because they're stone raining themselves and played a 1/2 on turn 1. If they play it later, it takes a really long time to get going, and it's not that hard to keep the graveyard more stocked than he can keep up with. That said...Turn 1 Deathrite into T2 Liliana is tough to beat.

I tried the Preordain/Thoughtseize version instead of the Probe/Therapy one for a little while, and I didn't particularly like it, mostly because it slows down Cabal Ritual by quite a bit. Typically you can go off with this deck when you can flash back a thresholded C-Rit, and no Probe often makes that take an extra turn.

[KobeBryan]

I agree, and have put together TES instead for now. Being faster is one way to ignore the shift to BUG. And until the metagame adopts EE more readily, EtW is a better path to beating them.

GJ man...rough beat on the flusterstorm.

[sauce]

grats koby!

[Koby]

Thanks guys, but I didn'tplay Ad Nauseam Tendrils. I played The Epic Storm D:

[sauce]

there is a difference? :rolleyes:

[Lejay]

Absolutely. But the funny thing is that with the new printings, the one called TES became the most Ad Nauseam centric based version, and the one called Ad Nauseam tendrils is now more centered on Past in Flames.

[SaberTooth]

so tes is now ant, and ant is... pift? (past in flames tendrils?)

[aaronm678]

so tes is now ant, and ant is... pift? (past in flames tendrils?)

ANT hasn't been an Ad Nauseam Deck since Mystical Tutor got banned, honestly. It's been much more similar to the old Iggy Pop decks.

[gregtron]

so tes is now ant, and ant is... pift? (past in flames tendrils?)


Seems like the deck names refer way more to the mana-bases than the cards used to find a win-con. These days, anyway.

[Koby]

Seems like the deck names refer way more to the mana-bases than the cards used to find a win-con. These days, anyway.

Thats a good observation and useful. Thanks for pointing it out. MYbe we can go back to calling it by its old name: Fetchland Tendrils!

[Lemnear]

Thats a good observation and useful. Thanks for pointing it out. MYbe we can go back to calling it by its old name: Fetchland Tendrils!

Would be smart if the Fetchland Tendrils Thread were not conquered by Doomsday lists

[Koby]

Would be smart if the Fetchland Tendrils Thread were not conquered by Doomsday lists

Fetchlands Tendrils != Doomsday Fetchland Tendrils

But I agree that it will be confusing.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Fetchlands Tendrils != Doomsday Fetchland Tendrils

But I agree that it will be confusing.

Just rename the Fetchland Tendrils thread "Doomsday."

Seriously.

[bennotsi]

I really can't stand it when people say that an ANT list with a few Burning Wishes should be called TES instead. There is so much more that defines TES as a fundamentally different deck than the mere use of Burning Wish. Like Lejay said TES is much more optimized towards having the best Ad Nauseams. With cheaper spells and much more initial mana sources, as well as having more ways to find Tendrils post Ad Nauseam. For similar reasons, TES is also much better at casting an early Empty the Warrens. ANT on the other hand is indeed designed to better utilize Ill-Gotten Gains and/or Past in Flames, and to do this often heavily depends on reaching theshold. I want to scratch out my eyes when I see Timo Schunemann's GP Gent list listed as a TES deck on TC Decks...

Fetchlands Tendrils is just a really old name. For what I think used to be the collection of Tendrils decks that use Cabal Ritual as an accelerant. If you really want to change something I suppose you could archive the thread and start a new one solely on Doomsday. But except for that the name of the thread might be slightly off, I don't really see the point in doing so.

[Lemnear]

Rainbow Lands + Rite of Flame + Chrome Mox = TES

Isn't too hard to differ imo. Card selection focuses on faster mana burst and less damage off Ad Nauseam. ANT post Mystical Tutor is geared towards longer games, tre.shold and classic spellchains.

[egosum]

I really can't stand it when people say that an ANT list with a few Burning Wishes should be called TES instead.

I said this many times in many different places, this version of the deck has been called T.N.T. since its inception (however there were different iterations of T.N.T., some with Rite of flame, some with cabal ritual, and some with both, see Liam's Kane old version, I can give a link). But it degenerate to A.N.T. for common use. Currently the term for A.N.T. is more suitable for the version.

It's a but confusing but I think that the proper terms for current tendrils storm version in the current format are:

-T.E.S. IT/BW/RoF/Chrome Mox/Ad Nauseam (centric)/Rainbow mana base (there are some 3-color versions of the deck but are usually called 3C-T.E.S. or UBR-T.E.S.)
-A.N.T. IT/Grim T/Cabal Ritual/PiF (centric)
-T.N.T. IT/BW/Cabal Ritual/PiF (centric)
-D.D.F.T. doomsday deck in any version the most regular one is 4 colored/White protection/BW
-Spanish Inquisition No Blue (just BG, with some BGr versions)/8x Draw 4/Belcher/1-2 Land (there are also different versions of SI, with Summoner's pact/without it...

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

P.S. I'd rather think that A.N.T. is a fine name for the current Grim Tutor iteration, because PiF-Tendrils should be used for those versions that were more UR with multiple PiF and Freeze that appeared. If I had to change the name though, I would suggest "Legacy Tutor Storm" (L.T.S.), or something similar, jsut because the tutors are the really important cards which aneables any of the engines the deck has to win.

[sauce]

can't it just be called "storm"? everyone knows what storm is. everyone also knows what belcher is. the intricacies of whether you get killed with a doomsday pile or a tendrils are pretty insignificant in my opinion.

[Koby]

can't it just be called "storm"? everyone knows what storm is. everyone also knows what belcher is. the intricacies of whether you get killed with a doomsday pile or a tendrils are pretty insignificant in my opinion.

They are small but not insignificant. Just like Miracles and Stoneblade can't be lumped into an archetype UW Control (as a supertype, sure). They are different decks and different tactics within the same basic shell. Similarly, Storm decks are the supertype, but don't necessarily give you much information about the composition of the deck.

FWIW, I think the best build going forward for this deck is Grim Tutor versions - let's call this Cabal ANT. It maximizes the acceleration from Cabal Ritual without getting choked on red mana. The TNT lists that use Rite of Flames might also be half a turn faster, but lose out on Tutor-chaining that Cabal ANT can manage.

[aaronm678]

can't it just be called "storm"? everyone knows what storm is. everyone also knows what belcher is. the intricacies of whether you get killed with a doomsday pile or a tendrils are pretty insignificant in my opinion.

Just because all of the decks generally kill with some a card and run Dark Ritual/Lion's Eye Diamond and Cantrips does not mean they play similarly at all, and they have pretty different strengths/weaknesses as well.

Just for an example on the DTB forum - there's a reason BUG has been split into two threads, even though they run 60%+ the same cards. ANT is more similar to the "controlly" build, it wants to take most decks into the late game, as the discard, basics, and high land count give it inevitability. TES is more of an Aggro build, and against most decks, it wants to kill the opponent before they can prepare for it.

[Zombie]

Random question, I've got proxies for Carsten's "Cabal ANT" list from the Storm Experience articles. Any fine-tuning that should be made to it to make it "proper", esp. maindeck? Looking to have a full-proxy Legacy deck for fun games on the side, my bank account would wring my neck if I ever got the deck for real. (hundreds of euros for 12 lands... deargodwhy.jpg)

Also, any advice mindset-wise? I'm pretty much clueless on Legacy Storm, though I'm competent with Storm in Pauper and play a tutor-heavy GBW Hulk combo deck in Highlander (!=EDH).

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

Random question, I've got proxies for Carsten's "Cabal ANT" list from the Storm Experience articles. Any fine-tuning that should be made to it to make it "proper", esp. maindeck? Looking to have a full-proxy Legacy deck for fun games on the side, my bank account would wring my neck if I ever got the deck for real. (hundreds of euros for 12 lands... deargodwhy.jpg)

Also, any advice mindset-wise? I'm pretty much clueless on Legacy Storm, though I'm competent with Storm in Pauper and play a tutor-heavy GBW Hulk combo deck in Highlander (!=EDH).

I've switched to Inaki's list since (-2 Preordain + Grim + Therapy) and forced the EtW into the sideboard.

As for mindset, it's quite different from Pauper Storm. You're a combo-control deck against most types of combo and similarly try to grind out blue decks (rip their hand apart with discard, kill them with Will uhm, I mean PiF). Obviously you can still kill people on the spot if the option shows itself thanks to Probe. You try to goldfish everybody without countermagic.
Kills (in order of preference): Tutor-chain, PiF, AdN.

Hope that helps, enjoy the deck :)

[SaberTooth]

well but maybe a new name will be fun... "the p.i.t"? (past in tendrils) XDDD

[Sloshthedark]

I like the Fetchlands Tendrils vs. DDFT idea ... FT is exactly what the deck is about and intricate enough to not sound cheap, UBx storm is also fine

Edit: well, Grimflames Fullmoon UBeR Ant is what I usually fill the decklists with...

[MTG Junkie]

Iv always liked ANT in Flames,been calling it that for a while now.

[Uranium]

I'm playing a completely standard list, but considering switching the 3x BW to 2x Grim Tutor + 1 more card. What do you guys think of a singleton Intuition? I know that it's weak to Surgical Extraction/Extirpate, but if you're running the Probe-Therapy build you can make sure that it's safe. You can also play around the Surgical by getting redundant rituals and tutors. It's almost a single-card storm engine (search for 2x rituals, PiF). Or if it's late in the combo, search for ritual, PiF, Tutor.

Imagine this 4-card hand: Dark Ritual, Grim Tutor, 2x LED. You have 2x Underground Sea in play. You can mini-Tendrils or try to get lucky with Ad Nauseam but it's not a sure kill.

Now imagine: Dark Ritual, Intuition, 2x LED. Same lands. Rit -> LED -> LED -> Intuition, crack LEDs for R/U (floating RRRUUUB), get CRit, Infernal Tutor, PiF. Opponent chooses:
PiF in hand: PiF (floating UUB) -> CRit -> Rit -> Tutor -> Tutor -> Tendrils
CRit in hand: CRit (floating RRRUUBBBBB) -> FB PiF (floating UBBBB) -> CRit -> Rit -> Tutor -> Tendrils
Tutor in hand: Tutor (floating RRRUU) get LED -> LED for black -> FB PiF (floating UBB) -> CRit -> Rit -> Tutor -> Tendrils

All of these chains leave U floating at all times leaving the option to FB Intuition for more business if necessary. If you already have Infernal Tutor in hand (and can get Hellbent), Intuition for 3x CRit sets up a lethal Tendrils - you will have threshold off the 2 in the yard, and then when you tutor for PiF you will have massive storm and mana. Hand full of mana + Intuition? Get CRit, PiF, Tendrils.

Or what about 1x Meditate instead? It's a bit less reliable on the combo turn because you probably can't cast it until after ritualing, and at that point you could just fizzle. I'm leery of D4s in general for that reason. However, it is very strong to grind against blue decks - cast on their EOT and then go off with 11 cards in hand. Also a strong play in response to a Hymn to Tourach.

[Sloshthedark]

tried that instead of 2nd Grim Tutor some time ago but did no like it much, thanks for reminding, I may revise the idea now

[loop]

I'm playing a completely standard list, but considering switching the 3x BW to 2x Grim Tutor + 1 more card. What do you guys think of a singleton Intuition? I know that it's weak to Surgical Extraction/Extirpate, but if you're running the Probe-Therapy build you can make sure that it's safe. You can also play around the Surgical by getting redundant rituals and tutors. It's almost a single-card storm engine (search for 2x rituals, PiF). Or if it's late in the combo, search for ritual, PiF, Tutor.

Imagine this 4-card hand: Dark Ritual, Grim Tutor, 2x LED. You have 2x Underground Sea in play. You can mini-Tendrils or try to get lucky with Ad Nauseam but it's not a sure kill.

Now imagine: Dark Ritual, Intuition, 2x LED. Same lands. Rit -> LED -> LED -> Intuition, crack LEDs for R/U (floating RRRUUUB), get CRit, Infernal Tutor, PiF. Opponent chooses:
PiF in hand: PiF (floating UUB) -> CRit -> Rit -> Tutor -> Tutor -> Tendrils
CRit in hand: CRit (floating RRRUUBBBBB) -> FB PiF (floating UBBBB) -> CRit -> Rit -> Tutor -> Tendrils
Tutor in hand: Tutor (floating RRRUU) get LED -> LED for black -> FB PiF (floating UBB) -> CRit -> Rit -> Tutor -> Tendrils

All of these chains leave U floating at all times leaving the option to FB Intuition for more business if necessary. If you already have Infernal Tutor in hand (and can get Hellbent), Intuition for 3x CRit sets up a lethal Tendrils - you will have threshold off the 2 in the yard, and then when you tutor for PiF you will have massive storm and mana. Hand full of mana + Intuition? Get CRit, PiF, Tendrils.

Or what about 1x Meditate instead? It's a bit less reliable on the combo turn because you probably can't cast it until after ritualing, and at that point you could just fizzle. I'm leery of D4s in general for that reason. However, it is very strong to grind against blue decks - cast on their EOT and then go off with 11 cards in hand. Also a strong play in response to a Hymn to Tourach.

I've actually been trying 2x Grim + 1 Abrupt Decay. I don't really like Wish in the current lists, because it's not very good at getting actual engine cards unlike in TES, and I haven't found EtW to be so effective against the current meta.
Grim on the other hand is pretty decent, allowing you to PiF/Adn without the need for another tutor. The one thing that Wish has going for it though is versatility, giving you outs to G1 cards like Gaddock Teeg or artifact lock pieces, etc. 2x Grim 1x Abrupt Decay gives you just as many outs, also being 3cc for better CB resiliency vs Miracles.

To be perfectly honest I have not tested it enough, but it looked pretty decent on paper and I did get to use it a couple of times in testing. Not sure what the final word is on that, something to consider though.

[aaronm678]

I'm playing a completely standard list, but considering switching the 3x BW to 2x Grim Tutor + 1 more card. What do you guys think of a singleton Intuition? I know that it's weak to Surgical Extraction/Extirpate, but if you're running the Probe-Therapy build you can make sure that it's safe. You can also play around the Surgical by getting redundant rituals and tutors. It's almost a single-card storm engine (search for 2x rituals, PiF). Or if it's late in the combo, search for ritual, PiF, Tutor.

Imagine this 4-card hand: Dark Ritual, Grim Tutor, 2x LED. You have 2x Underground Sea in play. You can mini-Tendrils or try to get lucky with Ad Nauseam but it's not a sure kill.

Now imagine: Dark Ritual, Intuition, 2x LED. Same lands. Rit -> LED -> LED -> Intuition, crack LEDs for R/U (floating RRRUUUB), get CRit, Infernal Tutor, PiF. Opponent chooses:
PiF in hand: PiF (floating UUB) -> CRit -> Rit -> Tutor -> Tutor -> Tendrils
CRit in hand: CRit (floating RRRUUBBBBB) -> FB PiF (floating UBBBB) -> CRit -> Rit -> Tutor -> Tendrils
Tutor in hand: Tutor (floating RRRUU) get LED -> LED for black -> FB PiF (floating UBB) -> CRit -> Rit -> Tutor -> Tendrils

All of these chains leave U floating at all times leaving the option to FB Intuition for more business if necessary. If you already have Infernal Tutor in hand (and can get Hellbent), Intuition for 3x CRit sets up a lethal Tendrils - you will have threshold off the 2 in the yard, and then when you tutor for PiF you will have massive storm and mana. Hand full of mana + Intuition? Get CRit, PiF, Tendrils.

Or what about 1x Meditate instead? It's a bit less reliable on the combo turn because you probably can't cast it until after ritualing, and at that point you could just fizzle. I'm leery of D4s in general for that reason. However, it is very strong to grind against blue decks - cast on their EOT and then go off with 11 cards in hand. Also a strong play in response to a Hymn to Tourach.

I really, really don't think 3 3CC Tutors is right for the deck. 2 of them is already extremely clunky (there's a reason there has been so much talk on this forum about cutting the 2nd Grim Tutor for something like Snapcaster, the card is not particularly good, it just happens to be the best bad card for the slot) -- as far as intuition, it's certainly not at its best in the current meta with Deathrite Shaman finding its home in just about every deck. It seems like, on average, it's going to be a little worse than Grim Tutor to me -- but I love me some tutor chains, and Intuition isn't very good in a tutor chain.

Honestly, I think if you're cutting 3x BW to 2x Grim Tutor, your final card wants to be either a cantrip or a land, as 15 land is not all that many to be casting Grim Tutor.

[ThomasDowd]

Adam prosak's list makes me want to vomit. less protection seems kind of loose. good luck ever beating a surgical extraction on IT. gemstone mine? only 7 fetches? the prordains seem ok, i think the format isn't slow enough yet to warrant a bunch of cantrips right now (also at that point why not just play tide?).

I'm probably just stupid.

[Grand Superior]

I agree. I was listening to his deck tech and almost spat my drink out when he said "sixteen cantrips." Just seems like a lot of durdling and cantripping into other cantrips. I'd rather run Burning Wishes or more disruption instead of those for sure.

Best of luck to him in the SCG Invi, and it's amazing that he went 4-0 in Legacy yesterday, but I'm not a fan of his decklist.

[aaronm678]

I agree. I was listening to his deck tech and almost spat my drink out when he said "sixteen cantrips." Just seems like a lot of durdling and cantripping into other cantrips. I'd rather run Burning Wishes or more disruption instead of those for sure.

Best of luck to him in the SCG Invi, and it's amazing that he went 4-0 in Legacy yesterday, but I'm not a fan of his decklist.

The format is pretty slow...with 16 cantrips, you're still outracing any non combo deck, and it seems better to play preordain than a tutor against BUG. 7 fetches is super low, though, and Gemstone Mine does not seem that good, but I don't mind the cantrips.

Have you guys played carpet of flowers at all? I have run it in the past, and even the matchups where it seemed awesome on paper (RUG, Merfolk) it wasn't all that exciting.

[Sigyn]

I have also seen Adam's deckteck, at first I thought: wtf?, but I don't think a good player as he is would bring a bad deck to a SCG Invi, maybe the list has a lot of adaptation to the SCG Opens metagame, personally, I'll give it a try.

There're some things I really like from the list:

-The list is completely UB, only splashing PIF (no Bayou/Tropical Island MD)
-He plays 3 basics, I'm currently playing 2, I have also seen that build in Carsten Kötter's article, maybe is usefull in RUG/BUG matchups.
-2 Gemstone Mines are pretty interesting even though you are playing a stable manabase, they help you on splashing red (MD) or Green (SB) at the same time. Wasteland is an issue but if you don't play the gemstones you'll play more dual lands so...
-Some preordain MD, while I was testing I really love how grindy the deck was by playing a ton of cantrips with a basic island, maybe a pair of Preordains MD would be a good choice.

I don't like:

-Only 4 tutors, you run 4 preordain to find them but I'm sure 1 or 2 Grim tutor replacing cantrips will be a much better choice, I think he is playing like that due to the lack of Grims (he said the deck was borrowed).
-Only 6 discard spells, I think he cut cabal therapy because he doesn't run any creature on the SB, I really like 7-8 discard spells MD, but he is running a ton of manipulation...
-No xantid swarm SB!! :frown:, OMG those insects are awesome!
-No GY Hate SB! (Reanimator is a bad matchup...)
-4 Abrupt Decay seems too much

I'll definetly give the list a try, I have never played carpet of flowers but seems pretty good.

Greetings!

[Fatestitcher]

Reuben Bresler, the guy doing the interview almost choked on his saliva after Prozak corrected him when he said ANT normally wins on turn 2 and Prosac replied ''Oh no I usually go of on turns 4 or 5.."

Dude WTF, this is ANT not Spiral Tide, there's a difference.

[ThediscoPower]

here is a link where he plays that deck on his stream, if anyone is interested here, with his commantary
http://www.twitch.tv/aprosak/b/345618583

Also, he really doesn't use Grim Tutor, even on stream, so it does seem like it's a design choice

[ThomasDowd]

I have played carpet in the board, more in doomsday though because the free mana you get at least gets you top activations, the only time i want it is versus rug typically. not even versus fish. with more discard beating fish is really easy and playing around daze is nothing. the reason a lot of the lists run the top main is not to take sideboard space(it would replace a gemstone in my list, the other gemstone is a fetch) the opportunity cost of that green non basic main is not that high, especially when you are replacing it with another worse non basic.

4 decay is fine. you are probably never beating CB without it so you want to find it and i am ok with jamming 4 since once the lock is online your cantrips are dead so you need to draw one i understand why people want less but i typically board in like 7-8 cards for the CB matchup because i find it so abysmal, and i'm OK with that since it is our worst match up and i rarely board for most other decks so i have the space.

boy do i love me some slaughter pact. i will say that.

[Barook]

good luck ever beating a surgical extraction on IT.
He just WON a game by getting an IT extracted on the SCG stream.

[Megadeus]

He played that one so masterfully... jesus that game was AWESOME. That was all experience right there... (Also lucksacking that PiF G1 was... lucky lol)

[MTG Junkie]

Whooohaooo, feels great to have won that tournament after a month of no MTG.

Side note-Beat 2 T.E.S. back to back ;),thought that was supposed to be the better Storm deck lol......

[jarvisyu]

He just WON a game by getting an IT extracted on the SCG stream.

Adam's aura of confidence was one of the best jedi mind tricks I've seen in a while.

[mike1987]

How would you guys approach the matchup against miracles? Cause it's quite heavily played in my metagame recently besides BUG. First game, I am almost too afraid to see a counterbalance landing the table that all my discards are used for it rather than FOW. Game 2 or 3, Abrupt decay settles the counterbalance but the SDT in play makes going off a bit riskier at the same time. Thoughts?

[Sloshthedark]

He played that one so masterfully... jesus that game was AWESOME. That was all experience right there... (Also lucksacking that PiF G1 was... lucky lol)

Happens all the time... but in win-and-in truly masterful and his opponent too inpatient, interesting he played IT first btw... anyway I think he should have gone PiF->IT->LED-Cantrips G1 (not just because his AN was horrible) and didn't play petals before passing the turn

btw. he doesn't play good on the stream and the burn game was also tight, sadly the Top8 was Standard...

[GexxX]

Reuben Bresler, the guy doing the interview almost choked on his saliva after Prozak corrected him when he said ANT normally wins on turn 2 and Prosac replied ''Oh no I usually go of on turns 4 or 5.."

Dude WTF, this is ANT not Spiral Tide, there's a difference.

I was watching his stream, when testing the Deck online and I must admit he plays very passive. I guess he just wants to make sure he's not making a mistake. Matchups differ, too. Sometimes you just have to get rid of more than one counterspell. He's playing more cantrips hence a less stream-lined build. I guess his assumption makes sense considering what we know about deck and pilot. He did come out 8th, must have done something right.:cool:

[Sigyn]

How would you guys approach the matchup against miracles? Cause it's quite heavily played in my metagame recently besides BUG. First game, I am almost too afraid to see a counterbalance landing the table that all my discards are used for it rather than FOW. Game 2 or 3, Abrupt decay settles the counterbalance but the SDT in play makes going off a bit riskier at the same time. Thoughts?

The matchup is some kind of variable, I mean, G1 I always try to have a discard outlet in hand for his counterbalance, even a blind one can be pretty annoying (they have Brainstorm), an early goldfish for EtW seems pretty risky (counterspells+terminus), so my plan is to play a grindy matchup (besides godhand), in your favour is his lack of pressing, If you hit his counterbalance and they can't find another quickly you are in a pretty favorable shape, because no matter how number of counterspells they have, you'll finally get through with your protection spells or simply overwhelming them by generating a ton of mana, there will be unwinnable games if they have everything to defend his counterwall engine or even if they are defenseless and spin top to see the counterspell ftw, is not a good match after all. You have to find the point between agresive and defensive mode by playing the match a lot, I also need to play it much more after my exams.

If you hope to see a lot of counterbalance I would suggest playing 4 abrupt decay.

Post SB you can get rid of his engine pretty easily, just keep a hand with enough protection or manipulation for find it (a grindy one), besides god hands once again. I also add 4 Xantid Swarm, so post SB I play with 11 protection spells + 3 Abrupt decay. I really think the matchup gets much better post SB.

[SaberTooth]

it was a jedi mindtrick? i mean... his opponent played really really bad with that surgical

[gregtron]

How would you guys approach the matchup against miracles? Cause it's quite heavily played in my metagame recently besides BUG. First game, I am almost too afraid to see a counterbalance landing the table that all my discards are used for it rather than FOW. Game 2 or 3, Abrupt decay settles the counterbalance but the SDT in play makes going off a bit riskier at the same time. Thoughts?

You can always fall back to the old plan of boarding in more Tendrils and hitting them with a natural. They really take forever to kill you with Angels, so you sometimes have the luxury of sitting back and playing lands until you have eight spells in hand to break through just about anything.

Now the Helm/Rest in Peace version... I don't know, do we even win that one ever?

[Final Fortune]

Reuben Bresler, the guy doing the interview almost choked on his saliva after Prozak corrected him when he said ANT normally wins on turn 2 and Prosac replied ''Oh no I usually go of on turns 4 or 5.."

Dude WTF, this is ANT not Spiral Tide, there's a difference.

He said turns 3 or 4, not 4 or 5, the 16 cantrip version isn't as slow as people are making it out to be. The main difference between Adam's list and other lists I find is that it plays out Island, cantrip. Island, cantrip, cantrip and then dual land, disruption into the win way more than the Grim Tutor lists and has a much higher chance of hitting that 3rd land drop.

[Megadeus]

It seems like it being slower seems to give it a bit more resilience in a BUG infested Meta which seems to be the case for the SCG Open series at the moment. Against them you arent really needing the speed as much, he is sculpting his hands more to beat whatever he wants to be able to beat at the time. I just wonder, what does he do vs a Thalia G1?

[emidln]

If you're facing a lot of real decks, I could believe going off on turn 4 or 5. Playing vs live opponents is where extra cantrips shine. You don't mull as hard which leads to more consistent goldfishes around turn 3 and the ability to win through disruption/countermagic on turn 4 or 5.

[Final Fortune]

If you're facing a lot of real decks, I could believe going off on turn 4 or 5. Playing vs live opponents is where extra cantrips shine. You don't mull as hard which leads to more consistent goldfishes around turn 3 and the ability to win through disruption/countermagic on turn 4 or 5.

Yeah, the other issue is hitting Threshold and grinding out Spell Pierce and Daze is a definite strategy by turn 4, with 16 cantrips pretty much guaranteeing Threshold past turn 3 you've got plenty of reasons to take your time vs RUG and its ilk.

I think the only criticism I have with the deck is the City of Brass, because 4 Polluted Delta, 4 Scalding Tarn, 2 Underground Sea, 1 Volcanic Island, 2 Island and 1 Swamp with a Tropical Island in the SB is really where you want to be as far as the manabase is concerned. At least he got rid of that awful Badlands tho', you just don't want any land that'll open you up to Wasteland unnecessarily and the Volcanic Island is already pushing it.

I also think he kind of under values Cabal Therapy with the way his deck grinds thru' cantrips, something like a 4 Cabal Therapy, 3 Duress package is probably better off for the long game.

[Dark Ritual]

City of brass and gemstone mine should never be included in ANT. You could just run more fetches to fetch basics or just more basics. Colorscrew shouldn't happen with 16 cantrips almost ever.

As for whether this list is better than lists with grim tutor I'm not completely sure. With 16 cantrips it's certainly easy to sideboard what with shaving some cantrips to board in cards. I'd have to test the deck to see if it's better than grim ANT.

[Sloshthedark]

slower doesn't mean resiliency - Shaman is a problem, anti-wasteland building is overrated, rainbow lands simply do not belong to Ant build, 16 cantrips are just cantrips into cantrips - 14 could be good, mulligans? you don't unless its complete (match-up) garbage

I'd not feel bad about UBG match-up, the builds tend to be aggressive, abandon Fow, multiple counters and tempo elements, incarnations like Agent Bug are simply stupid (taste a build with Confidant, Hymn, Fow and CB-top main, still winable)

[Final Fortune]

slower doesn't mean resiliency - Shaman is a problem, anti-wasteland building is overrated, rainbow lands simply do not belong to Ant build, 16 cantrips are just cantrips into cantrips - 14 could be good, mulligans? you don't unless its complete (match-up) garbage

I'd not feel bad about UBG match-up, the builds tend to be aggressive, abandon Fow, multiple counters and tempo elements, incarnations like Agent Bug are simply stupid (taste a build with Confidant, Hymn, Fow and CB-top main, still winable)

The cantripping into cantrips point is being take too far IMO, Gitaxian Probe isn't a cantrip so much as it is a mystery card, Ponder shuffles and Pre-Ordain scrys so if you think far enough ahead in order to know what cards you need and what cards you don't then you wont encounter situations where you reveal nothing but another cantrip that often. Also double or even tripple cantrip hands are a lot better than double or even tripple tutor hands, you really don't want to have to expose your manabase with Burning Wish or Infernal Tutor for a copy of a card in your hand unless you have to, because that tempo burn is even worse than cantrip t1, cantrip, cantrip t2

[Megadeus]

I feel like between preordain taking out its own trash, ponder shuffling away crap, and fetches for BS you should be fine. I personally would cut down a preordain or two for another discard spell or two. Like 2 thoughseize or go up to the full therapy.

[Zieby]

Abrubt Decay is very good against CB, but do we need more green cards against other match-ups?

SB: 4 Dread of Night
SB: 3 Chain of Vapor
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 4 Abrubt decay
SB: 1 Tropical Island
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony

This is my current SB with pretty standard MD (15 lands, 16 accel, 14 cantrips, 5 Tutors, 7 discard, 2 engine and ToA)
I know the SB is very lean, but so far it works really good. I also do not have that much problems with BUG (Control/Tempo) when playing 9 discard spels after boarding.

I am very interested in the thoughts here on the Source.

Greetz Zieby

[Ricca84]

Play 12 cantrips and only 4 IT instead of 8 cantrips and 6/7 tutors give you more resilience, but the deck is less explosive. Infact you have to manipulate more in order to find the right cards, and that means that you have a +1 turn kill on average with 12 cantrips.

I went for 12 cantrips version during Amsterdam GP, where Missteps were going to slow all the decks in metagame and where Thalia did not exist. And in that metagame it was a fine choise.

Right now Misstep has gone, and we need to be fast vs some deck in order to prevent some bad cards ( Thalia - HtT ) or we must have a solution to them.

So imho the best now is to play the fastest version as possible without bad cards as long as possible.
TES imho is not a good choise, becouse I personally hate Chrome mox and I want a very high number of fetchlands in order to optimize my cantrips, and avoiding random lose due to a wasteland.

Don't like abrupt decay too much, becouse I need to play a 4c combo without golden lands.. And imho this is pretty bad.

Right now Decay resolve this problems:
-counterbalance
-random bears like gaddock thalia ( spending 3 mana) Meddling Mage without a mother of runes on board.
-sciaman (really a problem?)

but do not resolve for example Leyline of Sanctity.
-Bears are resolved (better) by Pyroclasm and Dread of Night.
-Leyline of sanctity is resolved by chain of vapor.

So we have 5 cards in the sideboard (decay) to resolve only counterbalance (losing maybe later by a fow hidden by Top)--> Not in my sideboard ;)

[Zombie]

Done modding to Inaki's maindeck. This thing is going to be fun, yet give me fits I think. With the mana infinito listing maindeck and 4 swarm, 3 chain/decay/crypt, 2 karakas SB, there isn't a single Warrens in the 75. Is it really that superfluous and/or what would you cut for it?

[Koby]

Done modding to Inaki's maindeck. This thing is going to be fun, yet give me fits I think. With the mana infinito listing maindeck and 4 swarm, 3 chain/decay/crypt, 2 karakas SB, there isn't a single Warrens in the 75. Is it really that superfluous and/or what would you cut for it?

Typically by the time you are casting EtW, it's too slow to be an effective win condition.

[Sloshthedark]

Typically by the time you are casting EtW, it's too slow to be an effective win condition.

T1, T2 is fine ... I dislike the card in general, still remains mvp in my sideboard

[JJ-JKidd]

The matchup is some kind of variable, I mean, G1 I always try to have a discard outlet in hand for his counterbalance, even a blind one can be pretty annoying (they have Brainstorm), an early goldfish for EtW seems pretty risky (counterspells+terminus), so my plan is to play a grindy matchup (besides godhand), in your favour is his lack of pressing, If you hit his counterbalance and they can't find another quickly you are in a pretty favorable shape, because no matter how number of counterspells they have, you'll finally get through with your protection spells or simply overwhelming them by generating a ton of mana, there will be unwinnable games if they have everything to defend his counterwall engine or even if they are defenseless and spin top to see the counterspell ftw, is not a good match after all. You have to find the point between agresive and defensive mode by playing the match a lot, I also need to play it much more after my exams.

If you hope to see a lot of counterbalance I would suggest playing 4 abrupt decay.

Post SB you can get rid of his engine pretty easily, just keep a hand with enough protection or manipulation for find it (a grindy one), besides god hands once again. I also add 4 Xantid Swarm, so post SB I play with 11 protection spells + 3 Abrupt decay. I really think the matchup gets much better post SB.

What MD cards come out after you board in almost all of your board vs CB-Top? You said post SB you play with 11 protection spells + 3 AD so that makes it 14 cards vs CB-Top.

Thanks.

[Sigyn]

What MD cards come out after you board in almost all of your board vs CB-Top? You said post SB you play with 11 protection spells + 3 AD so that makes it 14 cards vs CB-Top.

Thanks.


Yeah, I dindn't count the abrupt decays as protection, If you count them as protection, that makes 14 cards, you're right. The other 7 protection spells are (4 Duress+3 Cabal therapy)

My current plan vs CB is the following:

+4 Xantid Swarm
+3 Abrupt Decay
+1 Bayou (I have only 1 trop MD, I tried 2 Gemnstones like Adam Prosak's build, but I think my manabase is more Wasteland-proof, and is better finding the green for SB cards.

-4 Gitaxian probe
-2 Preordain (1 Grim+2 Preordain Build)
-1 Lotus petal/Cabal ritual (I'm not sure of it, need to test it more).
-1 Island (2 Maindeck)

Greetings!

[GexxX]

What MD cards come out after you board in almost all of your board vs CB-Top? You said post SB you play with 11 protection spells + 3 AD so that makes it 14 cards vs CB-Top.

Thanks.

I assume he plays 7 Protection in the maindeck allready (14 total, 7 out of the board means 7 stayed, right?). That leaves us with 7 slots to swap. I think when you want to grind them out you'll propably get rid of some of the tutors and some mana. I don't know exactly how much value the Probes give, as they provide information so you don't have to waste a disruption spell on irrelevant stuff, but I guess you board them out as you have Decay & Swarms.

Edit: forgot the bayou =/
Attention: This is just how I ASSUME the boarding plan is!
-4 Probe -1 Grim Tutor -1 Cabal Ritual -2 Preordain +4 swarm +3 Decay +1 Bayou
or
-4 Probe -2 Grim Tutor -1 something -1 Cabal +8 above mentioned

That's just how I'd propably board with the thought of grinding the matchup out.

I am not completely sure on my current list as I have been trying to go back to UBw for the Moment. I feel IGG gives me an edge in the current local metagame as it feels more explosive. Haven't been testing the BUG matchup extensively, yet. Deathrite makes IGG worse by taking away tutors in the yard, but PiF has the same problem and I figured it's probably slower -> more time for them -> it's more likely they have shaman up in my comboturn.
Being a lucksack helps in the CBtop matchup when you play the DDShelldockEmrakul Plan. It's way worse than Decay, I assume, but no one expects it and it wins quite fast which looks promising on paper. Time will tell.

[egosum]

Done modding to Inaki's maindeck. This thing is going to be fun, yet give me fits I think. With the mana infinito listing maindeck and 4 swarm, 3 chain/decay/crypt, 2 karakas SB, there isn't a single Warrens in the 75. Is it really that superfluous and/or what would you cut for it?

I use the IGG slot for flex slot, between IGG and EtW depending on what I expect to face.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[Zombie]

I use the IGG slot for flex slot, between IGG and EtW depending on what I expect to face.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

Thanks for the advice ^^

Current progress report: Deck continues to confound. I hate Infernal Tutor, not used to working with the LED interactions at all (typically work with raw mass draw or Demonic/Eladamri/1-mana-Miracle tutors). What's the general look of a hand that can be expected to curve out well? Two lands, disruption, Cabal/LED, tutor, a couple of cantrips? Delta, Duress, Ponder, Preordain, LED, Cabal, Cabal seems shaky, though T1 Ponder seems like a decent fix.
Thus far been drawing shittons of discard during goldfishing, would be inclined to cut a discard spell for basically anything atm. A single slot of raw draw, a Snapcaster or something seem like they'd be at home here.

[Koby]

Thanks for the advice ^^

Current progress report: Deck continues to confound. I hate Infernal Tutor, not used to working with the LED interactions at all (typically work with raw mass draw or Demonic/Eladamri/1-mana-Miracle tutors). What's the general look of a hand that can be expected to curve out well? Two lands, disruption, Cabal/LED, tutor, a couple of cantrips? Delta, Duress, Ponder, Preordain, LED, Cabal, Cabal seems shaky, though T1 Ponder seems like a decent fix.
Thus far been drawing shittons of discard during goldfishing, would be inclined to cut a discard spell for basically anything atm. A single slot of raw draw, a Snapcaster or something seem like they'd be at home here.

1-2 discard is good. 3 and more is starting to push its usefulness... EXCEPT against RUG/tempo builds. The more controlling decks (UW, BUG-walkers/still, etc) are looking to play more board control rather than taxing counters (Team America, RUG, Stoneblade). I think Stoneblade is one of our more difficult matchups due to discard+counters+threat. Having too many discard spells there without the ability to start up a tutor chain is what will be challenging.

Cabal Therapy also allows you to gut your hand of extra discard spells.

[Zombie]

Yeah, noticed that amusing interaction earlier.


EDIT: A random idea: Singleton Sylvan Library? If we have Tropical and/or Bayou main anyway, plus a ton of fetches, Library could be amazing.

[Koby]

Sensei's Divining Top is better here. You get to cash in whenever you need the extra card, and also setup plays with LED + Spintop.

[Asthereal]

Seinsei's Divining Top is pretty strong actually. I used to play 2-3 back in the Mystical Tutor days.
Also really awesome in the mirror, keeping a Chant/Silence on top all the time. They can never win anymore. :smile:

[Zombie]

Seinsei's Divining Top is pretty strong actually. I used to play 2-3 back in the Mystical Tutor days.
Also really awesome in the mirror, keeping a Chant/Silence on top all the time. They can never win anymore. :smile:

Except Inaki build doesn't play Chant effects. But yeah, Chants seem nice. Looking a bit at TES, too. Might suit my general playstyle better.

[Asthereal]

Chants open up the option of an Iggy loop against decks with counterspells.
I know most people don't splash white for them now, but Chants should never leave the radar.

Top is still nice without Chants though. Tops are awesome against all decks with discard.

[aaronm678]

Chants open up the option of an Iggy loop against decks with counterspells.
I know most people don't splash white for them now, but Chants should never leave the radar.

Top is still nice without Chants though. Tops are awesome against all decks with discard.

I've been less a fan of chants against decks with a lot of soft counters, which are much more common than hard counters at the moment. If Spell Snare comes back as a 4x, I think it's worth looking into Chants again, but certainly not yet. Also, I really don't think you can run Abrupt Decay and Chants unless you're playing 5-color lands (at which point TES is probably just better), and I think in most metas Miracles is popular enough that you really need to have Abrupt Decay in the SB.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Hey everyone,
I am wondering how people feel about the land count.
I am currently running these cantrips (as well as 3 Probe):
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain

My manabase is:
2 Island
1 Swamp
2 Sea
1 Volcanic
4 PDelta
4 Blue Fetch
1 Black Fetch

I am considering cutting 1 fetch for a 2nd Preordain. Thoughts?

[pingpong]

Been reading this thread for a while now but had some questions.

Is grim tutor a worth while card for the deck anymore or is burning wish just better ??

Also is chrome mox a valid inclusion or does it just not fit with what we want to do ??

Bayou v.s. Tropical is there a better option when siding in abrupt decays??

Thanks !! I'm trying to finish picking up the cards and finish the deck. Anybody have recent decklists that have proven results ??

[Asthereal]

Grim Tutor: Burning Wish is very good, but it eats at your sideboard (need Wish slots). I have no real preference for either Wish-ANT or ANT with just Infernals and one or two Grim Tutors. Both are strong and have the same good and bad matchups. Schunemann played one Grim on side and three Wishes main, insisting that is the way to go. He did win a lot with that list, so he might be right.

Chrome Mox: I play two, Schunemann playes one. If you insist on including Ad Nauseam, I think the mox is a necessary evil. Without it, chances of fizzling are just too high. Right now I play Doomsday again though, so I don't have to play that stupid Mox. :tongue:

Green Splash: Tropical Island is the better card. You want as many lands tapping for blue as possible. Casting Ponders and Brainstorms is key to ANT. You could go -1 Island, +1 Tropical Island main, and add a Bayou to the side, in order to swap the main deck Swamp for it against Miracles. Against any Tempo Threshold you can actually just add it as an additional land to battle their mana denial.

[Patrunkenphat7]

In my testing I find that Tropical Island is not only better because it makes blue, but you also have to have a black land to cast Abrupt Decay. Bayou doesn't do much for you when you have to have a Bayou + another black land. Where I differ from a lot of lists here is that I do not run any maindeck green sources (just 1 Trop in the board for my 4 Abrupt Decays). The maindeck Trop felt absolutely terrible to me, as the dual is a pretty big liability in a lot of matchups. Don't run a Bayou in your 75 if you are only playing Abrupt Decay. It's good with Xantid Swarm though.

[Asthereal]

Patrunkenphat7 makes a valid point here. Decay + Bayou demands another black source, which draws you even further away from blue mana for cantrips, unless you are willing to become even more vulnerable to Wasteland.

I do play Trop main, but if I use green as an extra colour, I use it well: 3x Decay, 3x Carpet, 3x Swarm. :smile:

[JamieW89]

@pingpong
Grim Tutor has upsides and downsides compared to Burning Wish. It is a business spell more often, but it is less versatile (the only 'answer' it fetches g1 in my UBw(g) version is a singleton Karakas). The lifeloss can also be relevant. Wish does take a bunch of SB space and is a splash color.
Chrome Mox is a bad card, but it helps for AdN. I play 0 or 1, depending on how reliant the version is on Ad Nauseam.

@Pat
I don't like going to 14 lands. I'd go to 16 before I'd go to 14. (And I like the 4th probe over the 1st preordain but not by alot.)

@Prosak's list
It just seems wrong to run that few business.

@Top
I don't like Top in ANT. It doesn't exactly help setting up threshold for Cabal Ritual and is by nature a slow card. Surely they are still okay against certain decks, but I don't think they're worth running in this deck.

@Chants
I think chants are still fine, although discard might simply be better in this meta. It is, however, possible to run Decays in the board with white in the MD. Miracles won't be playing wasteland, so the manabase isn't that much of a problem. If you board 2 green duals + decays against random decks as well you would replace white so it'd still be fine.

@Green Duals
When I play green as a 4th color in UBrg and UBwg I usually only board 1 Trop and 3 Decay. If I want to board the decays against random hate I'd play both duals sideboard.
If I play straight UBg I play one dual MD and one in the board with 3-4 Decay and a number of Swarms & Carpets.

@BUG
Empty the Warrens is pretty sick against BUG, it seems like a good card to include even in the versions without wish.

[pingpong]

So for most of the afternoon today I goldfished storm with this list and would like some feedback to see if theres any obvious faults.

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Gitaxian probe
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Lotus Petal
4x Lion's eye diamond
4x Infernal Tutor
3x Duress
3x Cabal Therapy
3x Burning Wish
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Past in flames
1x Tendrils of Agony

Landbase:
2x Volcanic Island
2x Underground Sea
1x Tropical island
1x Swamp
1x Island
1x Misty rainforest ( should it be verdant catacombs ?? or does it not matter ??)
4x Polluted delta
4x Scalding Tarn

Sideboard: I need the most help on this

2x Karakas
3x Abrupt decay
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Past in flames
1x Tendrils of agony
1x Grim tutor (in gold fishing I never really wished for it didnt seem to do much and felt rather clunky. Maybe ill gotten gains in its place ??)

The next 3 slots along with the grim tutor I'm really not sure what should go there. Cards ive considered are perish, massacre, innocent blood, maybe chain of vapors or wipe away ??

Back to grim tutor though what actual purpose does it serve other than an extra tutor thats wishable. I guess what it comes down to is how do I justify getting one. I have no problem with the price but if I cant find one through trading (which is easier to justify) then what specific reasons make it exceptionally well for the deck.

My apologies if my rambling question doesn't make any sense :tongue:

[heathen]

I am playing almost exactly the GP Ghent list and I have a very, very difficult time against RUG Delver. Their combination of counters and a clock is just brutal. Does anyone have any suggestions for beating RUG Delver? Cards that are really good against them? I know Empty the Warrens is good against them early, but playing it against them is easier said than done.

[Patrunkenphat7]

I am playing almost exactly the GP Ghent list and I have a very, very difficult time against RUG Delver. Their combination of counters and a clock is just brutal. Does anyone have any suggestions for beating RUG Delver? Cards that are really good against them? I know Empty the Warrens is good against them early, but playing it against them is easier said than done.

First off, before I post anything else in this thread, I must say that I am relatively new to ANT. I have played 15 different Legacy decks in sanctioned events including TES, but my first sanctioned tournament with ANT was tonight. That being said, I now feel like I have put in a considerable amount of time playtesting over the last couple weeks, and I plan on playing this deck in Denver - so it's time to weigh in on the forums. :)

My testing against RUG has shown me that enough discard + Past in Flames is a pretty effective way of getting there. If your opponent is good, he will board in some solid gy hate against you making your life more difficult. Carpet of Flowers is a reasonable card, but you are pretty much saying that Ad Nauseam is a legitimate win-con if you bring in Carpet. From my experience Ad Nauseam is only relevant against them if it is in your opening hand for a quick win, because Daze + Spell Pierce + Delver is too much for you to be able to Tutor + Ad Nauseam at a reasonable life total with 1 or more mana floating. Because of these factors, I board in more discard for their gy hate and any other counters they might bring in, and I board out the Probes.

My maindeck disruption and Probe count is currently 4 Duress, 3 Therapy, and 3 Probe. I bring in 2 Inquisition and 1 Thoughtseize for the Probes against RUG. Inquisition is actually an extremely good card against RUG Delver. I expect people will have different opinions on this, but try out a couple different strategies and see what works for you. I think the other best approach would be Carpet of Flowers, but that isn't helping against their Delvers, Forces, Spell Snares (which are being played now), or gy hate. Inquisition is sinfully underplayed, as it's sick against targeted discard decks as well as RUG Delver and provides additional discard against combo.

This is the current list I am running:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
3 Gitaxian Probe

4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 LED

4 Infernal Tutor
2 Grim Tutor
2 Ad Nauseam
1 Past in Flames

1 Tendrils of Agony

2 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Swamp

SB
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Tropical Island
3 Dread of Night
2 Karakas
2 Echoing Truth
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize

The only weird thing in my main is the 2nd Ad Nauseam. I find that it provides the valuable fast kill that's important in a lot of matchups. Ad Nauseam can be pretty nutty when it's in your opener, so I want to double the odds. It's been solid ever since I upped it to 2. In my SB I have the 2nd Karakas over the 4th Dread of Night mostly because of Show and Tell. Maverick is not seeing much play anymore, and Dread of Night is pretty linear hate. I feel like I have to play the Echoing Truths because I don't want to be blown out by random crap like Leyline of Sanctity that I have no other outs to. It's also nice splash hate for slightly faster combo decks that rely on Empty the Warrens.

Xantid Swarm is a very polarizing card. A lot of people swear by it, but I simply don't know what it's good against in this metagame. In theory it would be good against Delver, but they usually don't bring out all their Burn, and if they don't have Bolt they can sometimes Stifle/Delver block. It will randomly win the matchup, but it is also randomly bad. It's terrible against the BUG decks that have a lot of discard and Deathrite Shamans as alternate ways of messing with your combo. I would rather have Inquisition for those matchups. These days Merfolk is like a tier 5 deck that's easy to beat anyways, so Swarm isn't really needed there. It just seems like a card that belongs in TES.

**By the way - to the poster with the list above: I started out playing 1 Island and 1 Swamp, but ever since I added the 2nd Island I never looked back, and the deck feels much better.

[door]

Misty Rainforest or Verdant Catacombs? I was also thinking on it and came to the fact, that you always need an island for starters. And if you are going for a turn 1 kill, you can fetch for U-sea.

Yesterday I tried an unusual thing. I put a Meekstone against RUG delver and BUG decks. It bought me a game against RUG, because he had to skip flipping his delver every turn and attack only for 1. I had an infinite amount of turns to sculpt my hand for the win. The stone took place of one of dreads of night, which are collecting dust in the sb lately.

[Arew]

@ Patrunkenphat7: ANT is already notoriously mediocre at fast Ad Nauseum's , a second seems like it would make it even worse? Your right about Xantid Swarm against RUG though, it's pretty bad against them, I don't even bother since they have too many ways to deal with it. Xantid Swarm for me is more for Miracles, Reanimator, BUG (they usually only have Liliana's and possibly Deed postboard to deal with it), etc.. Chain of Vapor seems better than Echoing Truth for the random card's in my opinion, as it's better against soft counters and doesn't get hit by Spell Snare.

I'd also probably either cut the second Island or a fetch for the sideboard Trop, since that lets you add the fourth Dread of Night, or since Maverick isn't that prevalent right now, I'd consider cutting them for 2-3 Virtue's Ruin to open up some more slots.

[Sloshthedark]

@Heathen: Threshold - playing just 7 discards I find it slightly good to even match-up, in fact I enjoy playing against it, typical SB is (note I typically play 2 PiF main): + 2nd Toa +EtW -AN -Probe, + Bayou +3 Xantid Swarm -off color fetch -discard -cantrip -petal lately

Strategy is simple, wait and the turn before they kill you, kill them, don't expose critical pieces to Surgical Extraction unless necessary, 8/7 ToA from hand (so don't cut Probe completely), double Toa via BW, EtW early turns, BW often acts as a discard spell -great in the match-up overall

I don't think Swarm is poor tech against Threshold, it's a must counter, and eating a bolt it buys you a turn, re-buys a Cabal therapy


@Door: nice find, but too narrow, same with DoN, Misty/Catacombs - depends on the SB land, I'm on 4 delta, 3 tarn, 2 mire (2x sea, volc, badlands, SB bayou) and 100% happy

[SaberTooth]

finally, i have my own grim tutor!. Goldfishing test: Now i love drawing burning wish

[cuthbertthecat]

@Pat, Xantid Swarm is great against anything aiming to cheat Griselbrand into play. Those decks usually have no answer to Swarm and Swarm's ability counters Griselbrand's effectively.

[MTG Junkie]

finally, i have my own grim tutor!. Goldfishing test: Now i love drawing burning wish

If this where Facebook id like your status.

How many wish do you play?

[SaberTooth]

3, same list than schuneman... i mean, burning wish without grim always looked bad, for example a hand with DR+DR+LED+CabalR+BW now is beautiful :P

[pingpong]

3, same list than schuneman... i mean, burning wish without grim always looked bad, for example a hand with DR+DR+LED+CabalR+BW now is beautiful :P

When you put it in that reference grim tutor just seems dumb and a nice inclusion.

However you could just as well burning wish for empty the warrens.

What other situations would you want grim ??

I suppose I might as well pick one up its a good card for the deck. Plus theres always grim long in vintage.

[cuthbertthecat]

When you put it in that reference grim tutor just seems dumb and a nice inclusion.

However you could just as well burning wish for empty the warrens.

What other situations would you want grim ??

I suppose I might as well pick one up its a good card for the deck. Plus theres always grim long in vintage.

Grim lets you effectively wish for a past in flames with a tutor already in trash for the guaranteed kill. Also lets you wish for ad nauseam the rare times when that's relevant.

[Koby]

Grim lets you effectively wish for a past in flames with a tutor already in trash for the guaranteed kill. Also lets you wish for ad nauseam the rare times when that's relevant.

You are lucky with your pairings today. You didn't have to face both CBtop decks in the DE. :(

[cuthbertthecat]

You are lucky with your pairings today. You didn't have to face both CBtop decks in the DE. :(

Yeah, I got BUG twice, Merfolk, and Mono Black Pox/discard/atrocious matchup. 16 cantrips really shined against all that discard. Are you on ANT also?

[Koby]

Yeah, I got BUG twice, Merfolk, and Mono Black Pox/discard/atrocious matchup. 16 cantrips really shined against all that discard. Are you on ANT also?

I played this list:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 LED

4 Infernal Tutor
2 Grim tutor
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames

2 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp
1 Island

SB:
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
3 Karakas
3 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-gotten Gains

Round 1 - Mirror (2-0) his build is worst, and I got more disruption + Grim Tutors
Round 2 - UWr Miracle/CBtop (0-2) can't break the lock, then Surgical on Abrupt Decay after nuking 2 CB's, then Canonist to lock me out permanently
Round 3 - UWb ThopterTop (1-2) Top + FoW are annoying to fight through
Round 4 - bye. :\

[Patrunkenphat7]

@Pat, Xantid Swarm is great against anything aiming to cheat Griselbrand into play. Those decks usually have no answer to Swarm and Swarm's ability counters Griselbrand's effectively.

I could definitely see that being true, good point. Is it good enough to justify a slot just for those matchups though? I am genuinely asking, because I don't know.

Also, what percentage of the Show and Tell metagame is Omni and what percentage is Sneak? Is it 50/50? I'm just curious what peoples' experiences are against S+T decks. Is Karakas good enough against them?

[cuthbertthecat]

I played Prosak's 75, which for reference is

4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
4 Duress
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Island
1 Swamp
2 Gemstone Mine

4 Abrupt Decay
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Karakas
2 Slaughter Pact
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Tropical Island

I've 4-0'd the last 2 Legacy Dailies with his list, playing against bug twice, sneakshow twice, merfolk, reanimator, zoo, and pox. The deck feels very good, the extra cantrips help you play around discard by letting you float business on the top of your library more often and also make the deck operate very smoothly. The trade off is that you're about a turn slower protected, but that doesn't really matter against the decks you want protection against. The gemstone mines help splash both red and green, I was skeptical initially but they let you keep island+gemstone and cast your black spells unlike island+trop.

The sideboard isn't ideal, I think the 2 Slaughter Pact could become a second Karakas and a third Chain of Vapor. The Carpets are pretty sweet against BUG, they let you play around all of their soft permission and let you cast the business spells you topdeck. I've been boarding out lotus petals for them because the matchup is super attrition-y and a 1-mana boost isn't usually what you need to win the game.


I could definitely see that being true, good point. Is it good enough to justify a slot just for those matchups though? I am genuinely asking, because I don't know.

Also, what percentage of the Show and Tell metagame is Omni and what percentage is Sneak? Is it 50/50? I'm just curious what peoples' experiences are against S+T decks. Is Karakas good enough against them?

I'm not sure either, but swarm is really good against U/W as well, it in conjunction with abrupt decay lets you stop the top floating force method they have of beating you and the counterbalance method they have of beating you. Its also good against reanimator, and for a tournament like a grand prix I would expect to get paired against Show and Tell and Merfolk several times which makes the sideboard slots worth it in my eyes.

I've been boarding it in because you have discard to stop their initial combo, meaning that a topdecked show and tell is likely their way to win. Karakas stops that. I think sneak show is more popular because it's more resiliant to discard because both combos are 2-card, but I could be wrong. I'm absolutely not a Show and Tell player.

[Koby]

I could definitely see that being true, good point. Is it good enough to justify a slot just for those matchups though? I am genuinely asking, because I don't know.

Also, what percentage of the Show and Tell metagame is Omni and what percentage is Sneak? Is it 50/50? I'm just curious what peoples' experiences are against S+T decks. Is Karakas good enough against them?

It's good enough vs them. If you can disrupt their hand and take out the Omniscience, they have to rely on fatties. If you sandbag the Karakas, then you can totally blow them out.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Thanks for the input. Have people actually tried Empty against a wide range of decks? It is pretty difficult to beat Deathrite Shaman with Past in Flames on the draw, and I am wondering if we need the Empty to steal games.

[slave]

Hi guys n gals;

I'm interested in this deck - but I'm curious.
Seeing as a lot of lists here have no creature fodder, why is Cabal Therapy so prevelant in so many decklists?
Why not Thoughtsieze or Inq of K.?

CHeers.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Hi guys n gals;

I'm interested in this deck - but I'm curious.
Seeing as a lot of lists here have no creature fodder, why is Cabal Therapy so prevelant in so many decklists?
Why not Thoughtsieze or Inq of K.?

CHeers.

Interacts favorably with Gitaxian Probe, Discard spells in general.

[slave]

Interacts favorably with Gitaxian Probe.

True.

I run Cabal Therapy in a couple other decks - I'm not convinced this is all there is to it.
I understand that Therapy is better than Duress & Inq., because it's not limited to certain cards.
But you can miss, even after a Probe - it's by no means a certain discard with cards like Brainstorm being so common.

Is the life-loss from Thoughtsieze the main reason Therapy is being run instead of Sieze?

[SaberTooth]

When you put it in that reference grim tutor just seems dumb and a nice inclusion.

However you could just as well burning wish for empty the warrens.

What other situations would you want grim ??

I suppose I might as well pick one up its a good card for the deck. Plus theres always grim long in vintage.

mmmmm, sometimes you can't win with warrens, and in that situation, without the grim, burning wish is a dead draw (not always, but a lot)

[ThomasDowd]

I played this list:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 LED

4 Infernal Tutor
2 Grim tutor
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames

2 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp
1 Island

SB:
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
3 Karakas
3 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-gotten Gains

Round 1 - Mirror (2-0) his build is worst, and I got more disruption + Grim Tutors
Round 2 - UWr Miracle/CBtop (0-2) can't break the lock, then Surgical on Abrupt Decay after nuking 2 CB's, then Canonist to lock me out permanently
Round 3 - UWb ThopterTop (1-2) Top + FoW are annoying to fight through
Round 4 - bye. :\


how have the 2nd tendrils and IGG been working out for you?

[Koby]

how have the 2nd tendrils and IGG been working out for you?

They have been "meh". I would bring in the 2nd Tendrils when I needed to grind against UB/x or CBtops; but it has been un-phenomenal. IGG similar reaction. I have since swapped the Tendrils for ETW, then decided that I would rather play TES (again...). They would be better served with more useful SB slots.

[DarkJester]

True.

I run Cabal Therapy in a couple other decks - I'm not convinced this is all there is to it.
I understand that Therapy is better than Duress & Inq., because it's not limited to certain cards.
But you can miss, even after a Probe - it's by no means a certain discard with cards like Brainstorm being so common.

Is the life-loss from Thoughtsieze the main reason Therapy is being run instead of Sieze?

Sorry, but from my point of view it's one of the freaking best discard-spells you have with this kind of deck! Neither Seize nor Duress are able to take more than one card from opponents hand (therapy won couple of games for me against double Flusterstorm/Pierce/Force-Hands). If they respond with Brainstorm you simply have to check if the coast is clear, you don't have to hit with your therapy. Many players pointed out that the best way to play therapy is to imagine that single card at any given situation/timeframe which would be backbreaking for you....just name this card...you don't have to hit!
Btw.: For me it's a common situation to grind out games with my UBr-Ant-Wish-List. Even a Late-Game EtW after an attrition-war with for example two flashbacked therapies is devastating for your opponents.

[slave]

Sorry, but from my point of view it's one of the freaking best discard-spells you have with this kind of deck! Neither Seize nor Duress are able to take more than one card from opponents hand (therapy won couple of games for me against double Flusterstorm/Pierce/Force-Hands). If they respond with Brainstorm you simply have to check if the coast is clear, you don't have to hit with your therapy. Many players pointed out that the best way to play therapy is to imagine that single card at any given situation/timeframe which would be backbreaking for you....just name this card...you don't have to hit!
Btw.: For me it's a common situation to grind out games with my UBr-Ant-Wish-List. Even a Late-Game EtW after an attrition-war with for example two flashbacked therapies is devastating for your opponents.

I love Cabal Therapy - and I agree it's one of the best discard spells out there too.:wink:
Thanks for explaining DarkJester

[DarkJester]

Oh, I just shared my experience with the card. But the explanation is not my train of thoughts, if I remember correctly this had been written by Richard Feldmann in his "The Dark Art of Dredge Fu"-Article.

[aaronm678]

I could definitely see that being true, good point. Is it good enough to justify a slot just for those matchups though? I am genuinely asking, because I don't know.

Also, what percentage of the Show and Tell metagame is Omni and what percentage is Sneak? Is it 50/50? I'm just curious what peoples' experiences are against S+T decks. Is Karakas good enough against them?

I'm not sure at a large tournament like a GP or SCG or whatever, but online the Omnitell version is much more popular. In general, I think we have a pretty strong matchup against the plain Sneak & Show version, and a very close matchup against the Omnitell version. Omnitell is a little more likely to run more Lotus Petals/Sol Lands, so sometimes we don't have time to duress them before they go off. For what it's worth, I think in general the Omnitell version is also better positioned in the Metagame - most decks have some sort of plan to deal with Emrakul/Griselbrand in the main/sb, but Omniscience is much harder to deal with, and being able to win without attacking is a pretty huge advantage against the U/W decks.

Karakas isn't horrible against Omnitell, I tend to just board into a ton of discard and Karakas, and, unless they get the nut draw, you can just attrition them out. Karakas is very good against the Sneak version, as they don't usually have time to assemble Sneak + 2 red mana + Emrakul needed to kill us through it.

[Uranium]

I'm considering maindecking an Empty the Warrens as it just seems so good against RUG and BUG decks. I'm on basically Timo's GP list, -1 Chrome Mox +1 Island. Any suggestions on what to cut from the main for it? Or tell me why it's a bad idea?

Also, how does this seem for a sideboard for GP Denver in a 3 BW list? Anything I'm obviously missing here?

3 Surgical Extraction
1 Tropical Island
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Inquisition of Kozilek

1 Past in Flames
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Grim Tutor
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infest