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phazonmutant
03-25-2013, 09:39 PM
luck dependant? With what? 16 cantrips and 7 fetchlands? Are you sure that you tested his list to say that, or even, played a 2012 ant list before? Because that just doesn't sound right, if you ask me.

There is a very old article that Adrian sullivan wrote, way back when, that partially explain why a brainstorm and a fetchland can help you find a singleton in your deck, in average, pretty quickly. (it's a long article, where half of it talks about a completely unlrelated deck, but there is some information in there anyways).

Here :

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/print.php?Article=6444

Now, I am asking you to find a 4 -of, with 16 cantrips (4 of which come complete, with a shuffle effect and all) and another 7 fetchlands... Doesn't seem that luck dependant to me...

The biggest problems with that math are: (a) you often have to play through discard, so sometimes you have to find 2 out of 4 if a tutor gets discarded. Brainstorm helps to hide, but shit happens. (b) You're assembling a 3 or 4 card combo (tutor, lands, disruption, fast mana), although there is a large number of potential combinations for those non-tutor 2-3 cards you have to find. Ponder and Preordain don't really help you find the other missing pieces if you're furiously digging for Tutor, so you have to take into account the probability of finding all those cards together.

I'm not just making this shit up, I've played ANT with 4 Infernal Tutors in GP Indianapolis. There were other problems with my list and play skill that prevented me back from doing well, but I learned a lot from that event. One of the biggest lessons was that you can't always deploy 16 cantrips fast enough to find the tutor + disruption before you die. You can only (optimistically) play about 3 or 4 cantrips by turn 4 if you're disrupting them and fetching to minimize Wasteland damage, and sometimes that's just not enough to find Infernal Tutor (often +LED).

Maxing cantrips is great at one thing - getting Thresh. Playing more business is good at just having it earlier through your opponent's disruption.

Dark Ritual
03-25-2013, 09:52 PM
I feel like Prosaks list is ok, but it is very luck dependent and even slower than BW ANT. It does actually have a decent game against discard due to being able to float cards on the top of the library just like top, but is has to get so much luckier when it comes to drawing the tutor.

Finding a 4 of with 16 cantrips...you're right, that's so impossible hence why Grant won the entire tournament with his 'inconsistent' 16 cantrip list that Prosak championed. Cantrips are what drive ANT. They make cabal ritual infinitely better, chaining cantrips together into a natural tendrils is not out of the question in such a list either. Is it better than wish ANT? I'd say yes, because wish is clunky as fuck and doesn't actually solve any problems usually unless you're going to durdle around a lot finding grim tutor to combo off next turn typically as wish -> grim -> any business spell is 10 mana/close to infinite short of a ritual overload draw or the nuts.

Wish is good in TES because it runs more chrome mox than we do and they have rite of flame as well. CRit isn't exactly good with burning wish either, since wish exiles itself and is offcolor in terms of ANT's ritual package. If you really want to play wish to its full potential, run it in DDFT or TES. I've played storm combo since mystical was banned, and late last year I was running burning wish ANT and decided it wasn't good enough due to how clunky wish is. I like grim tutor a lot more, as that's usually what wish got from my sideboard anyways. If you want to run demonic collusion with 3 life loss tacked on, be my guest. I'd much rather run demonic tutor at the cost of an additional black mana and a measly 3 life loss. Although even that seems inferior to just running 16 cantrips to always find either the lone past in flames or 4 infernal tutors. I count past in flames as a business spell with 4 cantrips in the yard to find what you need typically as well as probe being amazing with it. Finding the lone ad nauseam isn't too hard either. So that's what, 6 business spells? Seems like I should find one of said spells or more with 16 cantrips, but maybe that's just me.

One of the worst things in combo is not running enough cantrips/library manipulation. There's nothing worse than just playing land, go because you're out of cantrips, you still don't have what you need, and are getting beaten to death by a batterskull. Running 16 cantrips minimizes that risk quite a bit of bricking off forever while the opponent attacks your life total to zero.

Wish also makes your sideboard a lot shittier. Oh, so we have 8 slots for real sideboard cards because of all these wish targets we run? Sounds terrible. Stretches the manabase too, which is something I really don't like in ANT. We want to have lands in play, as winning without lands while we have a wish sitting in our hand is actually just the nutlow.

Ummm, finding what you need together with cantrips such as ponder and preordain isn't typically what you do. There's a thing called a draw step, ever heard of it? So you brainstorm and then shuffle. You play preordain, bottom one card and presumably find another piece if not bottom both. You get to draw two random cards off the top after bottoming 2 cards you don't want. You have pretty good odds of not bricking. I'm not advocating keeping 5 cantrip 2 land hands, as you then have to assemble mana, tutor, and potentially LED with just those 5. However, in the hands of an experienced storm pilot, 16 cantrip ANT is an extremely powerful deck.

phazonmutant
03-25-2013, 10:36 PM
Ummm, finding what you need together with cantrips such as ponder and preordain isn't typically what you do. There's a thing called a draw step, ever heard of it? So you brainstorm and then shuffle. You play preordain, bottom one card and presumably find another piece if not bottom both. You get to draw two random cards off the top after bottoming 2 cards you don't want. You have pretty good odds of not bricking. I'm not advocating keeping 5 cantrip 2 land hands, as you then have to assemble mana, tutor, and potentially LED with just those 5. However, in the hands of an experienced storm pilot, 16 cantrip ANT is an extremely powerful deck.

You're right definitely is extremely powerful! It feels buttery smooth and can be very consistent. I'm just advocating that there is a very real cost to inf cantrips - you slow way down. Given time, ANT will always assemble the pieces, but it may not always have the time before the opponent's disruption and clock get online.


Wish is good in TES because it runs more chrome mox than we do and they have rite of flame as well. CRit isn't exactly good with burning wish either, since wish exiles itself and is offcolor in terms of ANT's ritual package. If you really want to play wish to its full potential, run it in DDFT or TES. I've played storm combo since mystical was banned, and late last year I was running burning wish ANT and decided it wasn't good enough due to how clunky wish is. I like grim tutor a lot more, as that's usually what wish got from my sideboard anyways.

Completely agree. ANT seems to need the sideboard space much more because it wants the game to go to a point to where both player's sideboard cards have time to come online (turn 3ish?), and Wish takes up a ton of room. The most important Wish target in TES that ANT can't really play is Diminishing Returns (although Time Spiral is a consideration) because of Silence, and that can make a huge difference. Every time I try Burning Wish in ANT I'm disappointed by it.

I think we're really arguing for the same thing, but perhaps I'm coming across as antagonistic to the Prosack list. It's a fine list that's done well. I just personally find it hard to believe that it's optimal.

ThediscoPower
03-25-2013, 11:40 PM
The biggest problems with that math are: (a) you often have to play through discard, so sometimes you have to find 2 out of 4 if a tutor gets discarded. Brainstorm helps to hide, but shit happens.

This all depends on the time you have. You usually are not aiming to kill them on turn 3 every game either, even if most people think it is the case. You go off when you are either 1- about to die 2- when it is confirmed that the coast is clear. As such, you can take quite a lot of time to go off. Also, sometimes you will even be able to play your cantrips and go off on the same turn (simply because PiF makes the math much easier, nowadays). So as such, even if discard spells are a pain, a deck like AnT is just resilient enough to not care that much if they lose a piece.


(b) You're assembling a 3 or 4 card combo (tutor, lands, disruption, fast mana), although there is a large number of potential combinations for those non-tutor 2-3 cards you have to find. Ponder and Preordain don't really help you find the other missing pieces if you're furiously digging for Tutor, so you have to take into account the probability of finding all those cards together.

Althrough I was responding to the guy saying that you have to be lucky to find your tutor, between muligans and your cantrips, and having played that deck like hell, this isn't as pronounced as you make it out to be. You don't need many lands (2 is enough), fast mana is a third of your deck (so it should be what you have en masse in your hand), not that much disruption is usually neededfor a early take off (you can usually punch through 1 piece of enemy countermagic anyways, given that you play correctly, and the fact that noone stares at you with 7 counters in hand ever). 1 piece will do it early. If you they are too loaded, your happy to sculpt your hand and grind them anyways. And finally, if you end up having to search too many of those type of cards at the same time, then you probably should have mulliganed, I believe.


I'm not just making this shit up, I've played ANT with 4 Infernal Tutors in GP Indianapolis. There were other problems with my list and play skill that prevented me back from doing well, but I learned a lot from that event. One of the biggest lessons was that you can't always deploy 16 cantrips fast enough to find the tutor + disruption before you die. You can only (optimistically) play about 3 or 4 cantrips by turn 4 if you're disrupting them and fetching to minimize Wasteland damage, and sometimes that's just not enough to find Infernal Tutor (often +LED).

The problem is, 3-4 cantrip is supposed to be enough to find what you need, with the possibility to play a longer game with them with the extra cantrips. What I am trying to say here, is that in average, you will find what you need to go off by turn 3, given that you kept an average hand. And this is what makes it that this deck even works right now (or ever worked). The goal isn't to jam your 16 cantrips in here either (which isn't what I am saying), but is to have enough of them to find what is missing in your opener. However, you will have situations where you won't find your missing piece(s), ever. There, you either kept a bad hand, or you discovered a reality of combo decks, that sometimes, you just draw the bad half of it. This isn't supposed to happen often, but you will lose sometimes to that. Shit happens

Finally, what I will add is that before, list weren't that much different than this one. You played 12 cantrips, 4 tutors (with grim being a preference call. That one animated long and heated debates, online and irl), 7 discard spells. Oh, and IGG was there, instead of PiF. The thing that shocks me is when I read something like ''well, you have to get lucky to find your tutor'', or '' not enough buisiness''. When the old AnT lists aren't adapted to our meta anymore (they are 1-2 years old, after all), the mecanics of the deck stay the same. The math stays the same. How is it that Ari Lax, back then, could find his pieces with 12 cantrips , and today, when Prosak tries to find his pieces with 16 cantrips, people seem to think that he was lucky to even find one tutor at all? I could be missing something (i which case, forget my rent), but it really doesn't seem right.

Namida
03-26-2013, 12:42 AM
How is it that Ari Lax, back then, could find his pieces with 12 cantrips , and today, when Prosak tries to find his pieces with 16 cantrips, people seem to think that he was lucky to even find one tutor at all? I could be missing something (i which case, forget my rent), but it really doesn't seem right.

Ari played 2 Grim Tutor in his deck, and I believe the reason for that was because 4 Tutors was thought to be not enough. If nothing, I do recall Ari going around at the time and making a point of telling people the only way you should play this deck is with Grim Tutor.

walker
03-26-2013, 01:27 AM
The decks are so similar that arguing over these little things is fairly useless. Some of it comes down to play style. A lot of it comes down to expected meta. It'd be much more constructive to talk about matchups, sideboarding, and tech rather than whose pet storm build is better than whose.

lol.

I played this deck at MTGDeals to a top 8 finish yesterday:

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Burning Wish
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
1 Island
2 Gemstone Mine

Sideboard:
1 Grim Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Sylvan Library
1 Tropical Island

I don't remember everything but my matches went something like this:

Round 1 vs BUG

I find out later his version of the deck has Forces in the sideboard. G1 I durdle for a while trying to build my hand, I have wish and I'm forced to go off for just 10 goblins. Eventually he stabilizes at 3 after getting out a couple goyfs a couple deathrites and a lili. I punt when I cabal rit -> IT -> ad nauseam at 12 life instead of just going for the tendrils :/ I punt wayyy too many G1s. Anyway G2 I keep a somewhat shaky 6 that looks alright until it gets shredded and he gets a lili out to seal the deal. off to the next round.

Goblins I toast with fast hands and have time to get food.

A match I have no memory of.

UW miracles piloted by Joe Losset- G1 I don't remember, I go off on my first or second turn, I'm not sure if he interacts. G2 I have a good hand, I start cantripping and he lands a counterbalance on t2. I chain CB, he flips a land and chain goes thru. Next turn I probe him and his hand is NUTS, double force, double CB and more stuff thats good against me. I don't remember what happens but it goes a long time and he gets to trade each of his cards for more than one of my cards. I might have played better, I'm not sure.. I wish I remembered this one better. G3 I probe him see plains, senseis top force and some blue cards. On his turn he plays out top off his plains. My next turn I therapy his force and go off. I'm surprised he doesn't flip top to dig for force when I'm all in on wish. I make an army of goblins and get there.

Mono black pox with trinispheres. Ugghh. I don't remember exactly what happens but he gets liliana out and is beating me down with a very angry land. He's pretty smug but my cantrips are good to me and I get to cast ad nauseam to steal the game. G2 I go off t2 by stacking ad nauseam on top of my deck and popping both LEDs with probe on the stack, my first time making that play and it felt good. This guy... he was pretty speechless, more about him later.

Round 6, I have to fight it out since my opponent can't draw in, he's on junk. Good for me he does nothing both games while I cast tons of spells and win.

Quarter finals. In retrospect I wish I ate dinner before this round, I was fatigued but I didn't realize it until after. That pox player from earlier snuck into 8th place, hungry for revenge. Since I'm top seed I go first, and win on my first turn. G2 I mulligan into a decent hand that gets bad after he shreds it. I believe he plays a land and passes the turn, I believe I cantrip on my turn. He hymns me on his turn. I probe him and see liliana trinisphere and i believe a second hymn. I believe I have therapy chain of vapor and LED and a land. I take his liliana, I guess I should have taken the trinisphere. I think I had a plan but I forgot to set my LED and things go from horrible to even more horrible. I lose to that angry land after a billion super annoying turns. G3 is a heartbreak for me. I have the nuts- double dark ritual, double LED, infernal tutor, gemstone mine, and probe. I probe him and he has mindbreak trap inquisition smallpox and one land, I believe its urborg, besides that its 3 drops I'm not too worried about. I draw brainstorm. Cast brainstorm, hide the tutor on top, cast LED he traps it I cast the next LED and pass the turn. He inquisitions one of the rituals into my graveyard. On my turn I ritual IT pop LED and ad nauseam with no mana floating after hitting my land drop (a fetch), I'm at 17 life points. It starts nice with a dark rit and a cabal rit. It gets worse when I hit 3 cabal therapies, 2 chain of vapors, some cantrips, tendrils and a bunch of land. No petals, no tutors. I'm at 4 and I feel like garbage. I sulk, look at my cards, and I'm not sure what to do. PiF is still in my deck, and the other night I lost a game hitting PiF immediately when I risked it at 4. Anyway I go for it without any confidence and hit chain of vapor #3, great.. Now my judgment is clouded with emotion and I keep going and hit burning wish. I'm at one life, I can't do anything and my heart sinks to the floor. He shows me the swamp he had drawn on his previous draw step and my tournament is over. I'm new to this deck and I was tired/hungry but that's really no excuse. Even if I didn't win I didn't have to hand it to him on a silver platter. Anyway after I beat myself up mentally for a bit I had a great meal with a friend and forgot all about magic for a little while.

Overall it was a great day, and I learned a ton, I saw lots of good people, and the judge did a really good job. I love this deck. It's really a blast to play. I like my sideboard, I mulled both times I saw sylvan library, but I don't think it was library's fault I had to ship the hands. I really wanted it vs that pox deck. I like burning wish, but the prozak version looks good too.

ThediscoPower
03-26-2013, 02:04 AM
Ari played 2 Grim Tutor in his deck, and I believe the reason for that was because 4 Tutors was thought to be not enough. If nothing, I do recall Ari going around at the time and making a point of telling people the only way you should play this deck is with Grim Tutor.

Still was a debated point actually. Most people thought that you could upgrade the deck with more tutor effects, but people were divided with grim tutor. And then, the format got faster and TES became the better choice. However, even if Ari was playing with 2 grim tutors (you are right on that, it was a bad exemple on my part), most list I saw still were playing 4 tutors 12 cantrips just fine, with grim tutor being a preference call (or a budget call). As such, I believe my point stands, in the sense that I don't believe anyone should be suprised to find their combo pieces with 16 cantrips maindeck.

Now that I start to think about it, I do remember Ari writting an old article for starcity saying just that, however, later, this is what he wrote:

"While I haven't played this list enough since the addition of Past in Flames to know a lot of the intricacies that have changed, I can comment on a few random things.


Four Infernal Tutor is definitely pushing the low end of threat density for the deck. Even with the effective 56-card deck size, you have dropped from 11.7% of your deck being game enders to 9%. The two Grim Tutors I previously played is definitely too many of that card with the additional four cantrips, but one would be enough to make up most of the difference. Burning Wish is also reasonable, but only playing one or two of that card when it eats sideboard slots just feels bad."

- http://www.starcitygames.com/article/25398_How-To-Count-To-Ten-GP-Denver-Edition.html

Ari seems to think that 16 cantrips mean that you could go to 5 tutors, when Prosak thinks that you don't need more than infernal tutor (with reasons in one of his 2 starcity articles, don't remember which). Now, with my experience playing AnT in the past and looking at his results, I believe I can back Prosak on this one. I just haven't lost enough games to not finding a tutor in time, and the format is slow enough again to relax a few turns again.

Late addition : Looking at old lists again, there even are a bunch of lists (in 2011) that did well in europe with pretty much Adam's maindeck configuration, 16 cantrips 4 infernal tutors...So it seems like it's not even like it's such a new idea...

Dzra
03-26-2013, 04:45 AM
G3 is a heartbreak for me.

I'm using a pretty similar decklist to yours (although I'm not much a fan of Chain of Vapor if you splash G). What are you boarding out that you can afford to leave in Probes? I definitely wouldn't recommend SBing out my discard since especially on the play you are able to hit his disruption first.


I have the nuts- double dark ritual, double LED, infernal tutor, gemstone mine, and probe. I probe him and he has mindbreak trap inquisition smallpox and one land, I believe its urborg, besides that its 3 drops I'm not too worried about. I draw brainstorm. Cast brainstorm, hide the tutor on top, cast LED he traps it I cast the next LED and pass the turn.

After you see Mindbreak Trap with Probe, your first priority is probably to get rid of it with some sort of discard. You are fairly lucky that he wasted it on your LED rather than waiting for a tutor.

Failing to find discard, the right call was probably to just leave Brainstorm mana up and roll out one LED a turn until you had 3 land to cast Infernal Tutor, crack both your LEDs, and then cast Ad Nauseam as your second spell for turn. It is important that you have access to the 2 additional mana. If you only had one then he could Mindbreak your first Ritual and you'd fizzle. Since you have two mana, you will fire off a Ritual and have plenty of mana to strip his hand of Mindbreak and anything else with the discard you find off Ad Naus.

If you couldn't find the 3rd land (or Petal) to give you 2 mana post-Ad Nauseam, you could have fired with one mana floating, stop your Ad Nauseam at a healthy place, and use your floating mana to discard Mindbreak Trap, pass the turn, untap, and try to kill him from fresh. It's hard to say exactly without seeing all of your draws, but hopefully this helps.

With so little pressure from him, there's not much reason to cast an Ad Nauseam that would leave you with zero mana floating and no more land drops. At that point, you are either banking on hitting one of four Lotus Petals + one of two remaining Dark Rituals or hitting both remaining LEDs + Past in Flames or else you are fizzling and passing regardless.

SaberTooth
03-26-2013, 07:40 AM
guys, what do you think about prozak's list (maindeck) -1 preordain +1 grim tutor?

jin
03-26-2013, 11:42 AM
guys, what do you think about prozak's list (maindeck) -1 preordain +1 grim tutor?

Hurts Ad Nauseam a lot. I like Prozak's main deck. The deck has to search for one thing, Infernal Tutor and it wins. It's jam full of lands and protection is consequential. It's fine the way it is.

I just don't understand why he plays massacre in the SB. It sucks against Gaddock Teeg, which is probably the most common hate bear.

Koby
03-26-2013, 11:53 AM
Hurts Ad Nauseam a lot. I like Prozak's main deck. The deck has to search for one thing, Infernal Tutor and it wins. It's jam full of lands and protection is consequential. It's fine the way it is.

I just don't understand why he plays massacre in the SB. It sucks against Gaddock Teeg, which is probably the most common hate bear.

The Ad Nauseam paths in this deck are strategically weaker compared to TES, and often relying on them to get you out of a bind doesn't end well. More to the point, ANT has to rely on luck rather than a determinate path in order to make use of Ad Nauseam. This is one of the shortfalls of this deck compared to other Storm enablers. Personally, I would rather rely on tutor chains (and hence the Grim Tutor over none) than roll the dice with Ad Nauseam if I have an opportunity.

SaberTooth
03-26-2013, 11:57 AM
i feel the same, i mean, with ant i hate playing ad nauseam (ironic), because my win or my lose is decided by a coinflip. Obviously the grim is awful with nauseam, but maybe 1 more tutor will work

jin
03-26-2013, 03:45 PM
The Ad Nauseam paths in this deck are strategically weaker compared to TES, and often relying on them to get you out of a bind doesn't end well. More to the point, ANT has to rely on luck rather than a determinate path in order to make use of Ad Nauseam. This is one of the shortfalls of this deck compared to other Storm enablers. Personally, I would rather rely on tutor chains (and hence the Grim Tutor over none) than roll the dice with Ad Nauseam if I have an opportunity.


i feel the same, i mean, with ant i hate playing ad nauseam (ironic), because my win or my lose is decided by a coinflip. Obviously the grim is awful with nauseam, but maybe 1 more tutor will work

That's an interesting statement about other decks are less reliant on luck. What do you think makes this true? The Tutors?

Yeah, I understand that ANT's Ad Nauseam is weaker than TES's, but should you add things to the deck that will further relieve the significance of Ad Nauseam? I feel that in order to still be a strong Ad Nauseam deck, you still need to be able to work with the card. Playing Grim Tutor just doesn't.

Tutor chains are great and all, but you can pretty much do the same thing with Prozak's list. You can cantrip chain until you can Tutor for a Tendrils as well. If you enjoy chaining into a Tendrils, then any storm deck can do this. You don't need to play ANT specifically.

Koby
03-26-2013, 03:48 PM
RE: Luck with Ad Nauseam
ANT runs much fewer initial mana sources (2 less Chrome Mox in the most aggressive list), which hurts the chances of being able to continue chaining mana after the Ad Nauseam. Coupled with that are the increased use of redundant cantrips (all of which are 1 CMC), and the Cabal Rituals which are also 2 CMC. The end result of the deck's construction results in a higher average CMC that limits the cards you're able to take with Ad Nauseam. The compound effect of ANT's construction means that you have fewer cards post resolution, and more of those cards are cantrips. This reduces the effectiveness of Ad Nauseam when you are looking for mana + tutors. Furthermore, the deck only plays 4 Tutors, compared to TES's seven or eight. This again forces ANT to dig deeper in order to find the Infernal Tutor and chain it into a kill spell. The pre-requisite stopping point with Ad Nauseam is general 6 mana and have a tutor. Infernal Tutor also requires LED to be present to enable Hellbent.

TL;DR:
Higher avg CMC,
Lower tutor density,
Higher cantrip count;
Ergo - weaker Ad Nauseam.


You don't need to play ANT specifically.

Specifically why I abandoned the deck in my testing. It just couldn't consistently utilize Ad Nauseam for an advantage. I was also only able to claim only ~60% win rate with the deck, and only 40% winrate vs FOW decks. This was a deal breaker for me. These values came from over 150 matches played. I can post them when I get home and have access to the spreadsheet.

jin
03-26-2013, 03:49 PM
Specifically why I abandoned the deck in my testing. It just couldn't consistently utilize Ad Nauseam for an advantage. I was also only able to claim only ~60% win rate with the deck, and only 40% winrate vs FOW decks. This was a deal breaker for me. These values came from over 150 matches played. I can post them when I get home and have access to the spreadsheet.

That's not necessary. It was a loaded question. I know you play other decks. It was just to further discussion.

phazonmutant
03-26-2013, 04:54 PM
- http://www.starcitygames.com/article/25398_How-To-Count-To-Ten-GP-Denver-Edition.html

Ari seems to think that 16 cantrips mean that you could go to 5 tutors, when Prosak thinks that you don't need more than infernal tutor (with reasons in one of his 2 starcity articles, don't remember which). Now, with my experience playing AnT in the past and looking at his results, I believe I can back Prosak on this one. I just haven't lost enough games to not finding a tutor in time, and the format is slow enough again to relax a few turns again.

You make a good point, we're really just jerking it without any data. I'm working on a spreadsheet that I'll share via google docs when it's ready.
So far I've ran the numbers for probability that an opening hand will have 0-7 business/IMS/Fast mana/protection cards for Prosack ANT, Grim ANT, TNT, and TES for 7-5 card hands.
I've also done a chart showing the probability of being alive after drawing n cards with Ad Nauseam for each of the decks.

Are there any other statistical measures that you guys can think of that will help further our arguments in favor of one build or another?

JamieW89
03-26-2013, 05:37 PM
Hurts Ad Nauseam a lot. I like Prozak's main deck. The deck has to search for one thing, Infernal Tutor and it wins. It's jam full of lands and protection is consequential. It's fine the way it is.

I just don't understand why he plays massacre in the SB. It sucks against Gaddock Teeg, which is probably the most common hate bear.

You shouldn't be casting Ad Nauseam that often anyways. This deck is geared to combo out on turn-3/4 with PiF or Tutor chaining, with protection. If you seek quick and smooth Ad Nauseams play TES.
I prefer playing one Grim Tutor and the 7th protection spell over 2 preordains and possibly a mana source (16th land or 1st mox) over another. But the results of the 12 cantrip + probe list have been pretty good lately.

Dark Ritual
03-26-2013, 07:26 PM
Hurts Ad Nauseam a lot. I like Prozak's main deck. The deck has to search for one thing, Infernal Tutor and it wins. It's jam full of lands and protection is consequential. It's fine the way it is.

I just don't understand why he plays massacre in the SB. It sucks against Gaddock Teeg, which is probably the most common hate bear.

I wouldn't call gaddock teeg the most common hatebear. Right now hatebears are usually thalia, canonist, and meddling mage if the opponent even has any hatebears in their 75.

The line against the pox player in top 8 is that since he lacks any CMC 1 discard is to play out both LED's after probe before brainstorm. If he traps one, great you win on the spot as you go dark rit x2 tutor, crack the other LED for RRR, PiF, flashback both dark rit's, tutor for tendrils. Tendrils him for 24 and call him a scrub for force of willing an LED and not the spell that the LED is being used to cast since his deck has no soft countermagic. Let's say he let both LED's resolve. Pass the turn with blue open for brainstorm. If he draws something relevant like duress brainstorm in response and hide IT on top. Let him take a useless dark ritual. Untap, infernal, crack both LED's for black, ad nauseam. Win with ease afterwards hopefully. If you found a discard spell with brainstorm in response and you still have it after his duress/seize/IoK, I would go dark rit, dark rit if you have another one, therapy/duress his MBT, tutor, crack LED's for red and black, PiF, win.

Casting ad nauseam in ANT is a last resort for me unless I naturally draw it, then I cast it if I can because as a setup spell the card is bonkers and it can randomly win on the spot if you flip the right cards. EoT ad nauseam is also very potent in this deck as it turns out untapping in storm after drawing 10+ cards typically equals game.

I might test 1 grim tutor over 1 preordain and see how I like it since I'm going to start playing this deck again quite frequently in preparation for SCG Milwaukee and see how the 5th tutor is over the 16th cantrip. Could be good, but only testing will tell.

Koby
03-26-2013, 08:40 PM
As promised, here's my testing log from December. Not much has changed in Legacy, except metagame shifts, but the deck is basically the same.

Clicky the linky (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0An9giloPs1B4dHRjd3h1UlpaUER1QWVDQk9xY2pyVWc&usp=sharing)

Megadeus
03-26-2013, 08:52 PM
Is 34% win rate vs force of will decks really right? Seems bad. But then again to counteract my own argument alot of those were tempo or CB decks.

Koby
03-26-2013, 08:55 PM
Is 34% win rate vs force of will decks really right? Seems bad. But then again to counteract my own argument alot of those were tempo or CB decks.

There are limitations to the data approach, and obviously there isn't enough data. But the sample is relatively large for an empirical approach.

aaronm678
03-26-2013, 11:00 PM
There are limitations to the data approach, and obviously there isn't enough data. But the sample is relatively large for an empirical approach.

Were you running Abrupt Decay? The CB matchup isn't great with that, but 0-4 (with 1-8 in games) seems a little off to me.

That said, are those numbers really that bad? Counterbalance is our worst matchup, everybody knows that - if that's the most popular deck in the room, you're going to get stomped. If you ignore that, "FOW Matchup" is slightly unfavorable (40% ish, with blue combo being pretty good), and the non-FOW matchups are favorable. Especially considering how popular Jund has been (and how unpopular that has made Counterbalance, and how popular that has made Sneak and Show), I don't really think that's a bad place to be.

I'd be curious to see a similar spreadsheet on TES. I was testing TES for a while, because on paper it seems a lot better (Deathrite is fairly annoying for this deck, a blank against TES, Hymn is very annoying for this deck, very slow against TES, etc), but I found myself playing ANT again due to how often TES just loses to itself or a single Wasteland.

Koby
03-26-2013, 11:09 PM
I was using this decklist:
http://i.imgur.com/r2UShsg.png

Dark Ritual
03-26-2013, 11:17 PM
34% winrate seems very low considering how easy it is to set up a really good hand against just countermagic with 16 cantrips. Sure, 6 protection spells is kind of low but it should be able to get there with gitaxian therapy and people usually don't run that many hard counters outside FoW. I'm usually more scared of vendilion clique than FoW against countertop decks, as them nabbing your lone tutor is quite annoying while vclique is a quick clock as well. Counterbalance itself shouldn't be a problem generally with abrupt decay in the mix, sure before decay countertop wasn't something we wanted to see but now? They can't even effectively float FoW on top with SDT in play since most versions are running RiP/we need to bring in additional bounce and decay can still hit SDT EoT to make them flip top to draw FoW into a therapy or duress. There's also the possibility of us boarding in more discard against them to hit countermagic. As for RUG Delver, to me it's a slightly harder merfolk matchup. And even they can draw bad hands against us or we can set up to win through their 3 disruption spells typically, maybe 4 and almost never 5. Just don't get wasted out and board correctly and the RUG matchup is perfectly winnable.

That decklist is a bit different than the stock 16 cantrip build IMO. The 3 additional cantrips could change the matchup immensely in terms of finding decay or other key cards. The sideboard seems awkward to say the least. EtW and IGG seem out of place to me. The additional tendrils is something I would board in as well against miracles, as you can just raw storm them using their countermagic or we could minitendrils them twice if they lack batterskull.

jin
03-26-2013, 11:19 PM
Casting ad nauseam in ANT is a last resort for me unless I naturally draw it, then I cast it if I can because as a setup spell the card is bonkers and it can randomly win on the spot if you flip the right cards. EoT ad nauseam is also very potent in this deck as it turns out untapping in storm after drawing 10+ cards typically equals game.


How does this work? The longer you wait, the less life you have


I wouldn't call gaddock teeg the most common hatebear. Right now hatebears are usually thalia, canonist, and meddling mage if the opponent even has any hatebears in their 75.


But Teeg sees play in any GSZ deck.. I wouldn't want to lose to Forests because I'm running Massacre instead of Infest or Pyroclasm


You shouldn't be casting Ad Nauseam that often anyways. This deck is geared to combo out on turn-3/4 with PiF or Tutor chaining, with protection. If you seek quick and smooth Ad Nauseams play TES.

I do. It's been my favourite deck since 2009.

Dark Ritual
03-26-2013, 11:26 PM
It depends on the deck and my hand if I use AdN or not. If I have no instant speed rituals, I go for ad nauseam but usually want a landdrop or a mana floating. Also depends on the opponents deck whether your life total will go down that quickly. There are a lot of variables that dictate whether I go for ad nauseam or not in ANT. Facing tormod's crypt or surgical? Go for ad nauseam. My opponent has none of these and I have at least 2 ritual effects that work with PiF? I go for PiF. Some decks really don't deal that much damage that quickly in legacy, believe it or not. Control decks deal no damage in the first few turns typically. RUG Delver has to have a flipped delver on turn 2 to deal significant damage to make AdN bad but we generally want to sculpt and go for PiF against RUG anyways when they have bolt effects to make AdN draw less. The worst card to face turn 1 is DRS, as it is a fast clock and hates on PiF.

Okay, how many GSZ decks are out there that are GW? Not many. Maverick is dead. Jund Nic Fit doesn't run teeg. The only deck that does is elves combo, and that is a fringe deck that I am about as likely to face as maverick in a big tournament. I've seen a lot more thalia's and canonists in the metagame and even meddling mage. Teeg isn't that common at all. I agree with massacre right now because it kills thalia for 1 and mage/canonist for zero.

jin
03-26-2013, 11:51 PM
It depends on the deck and my hand if I use AdN or not. If I have no instant speed rituals, I go for ad nauseam but usually want a landdrop or a mana floating. Also depends on the opponents deck whether your life total will go down that quickly. There are a lot of variables that dictate whether I go for ad nauseam or not in ANT. Facing tormod's crypt or surgical? Go for ad nauseam. My opponent has none of these and I have at least 2 ritual effects that work with PiF? I go for PiF. Some decks really don't deal that much damage that quickly in legacy, believe it or not. Control decks deal no damage in the first few turns typically. RUG Delver has to have a flipped delver on turn 2 to deal significant damage to make AdN bad but we generally want to sculpt and go for PiF against RUG anyways when they have bolt effects to make AdN draw less. The worst card to face turn 1 is DRS, as it is a fast clock and hates on PiF.

Okay, how many GSZ decks are out there that are GW? Not many. Maverick is dead. Jund Nic Fit doesn't run teeg. The only deck that does is elves combo, and that is a fringe deck that I am about as likely to face as maverick in a big tournament. I've seen a lot more thalia's and canonists in the metagame and even meddling mage. Teeg isn't that common at all. I agree with massacre right now because it kills thalia for 1 and mage/canonist for zero.

What I meant was Ad Nauseam should really be a plan A and not a back up plan. All of those are reasons to not cast Ad Nauseam, so you'll have to go to plan B, Past in Flames. I don't reject that notion. It is definitely true that ANT needs a land drop or mana floating for Ad Nauseam to work properly. I wouldn't dare to go off without those two options open as the initial mana source in this deck is highly limited after the land drop.

I was thinking Rock plays Teeg. Maverick shows up from time to time. I actually rarely see Cannonist or Meddling Mage. Given that Teeg is not a factor in your calculation, I do see the argument for Massacre.

phazonmutant
03-27-2013, 12:50 AM
What I meant was Ad Nauseam should really be a plan A and not a back up plan. All of those are reasons to not cast Ad Nauseam, so you'll have to go to plan B, Past in Flames. I don't reject that notion. It is definitely true that ANT needs a land drop or mana floating for Ad Nauseam to work properly. I wouldn't dare to go off without those two options open as the initial mana source in this deck is highly limited after the land drop.

I was thinking Rock plays Teeg. Maverick shows up from time to time. I actually rarely see Cannonist or Meddling Mage. Given that Teeg is not a factor in your calculation, I do see the argument for Massacre.

Really? I've been lazy with ANT and just gone for Ad Naus and gotten punished for it plenty of times when I could have thought a little bit and gone for a different kill.
I've always been of the opinion you should go for (1) tutor chain, (2) PiF (or if they have nothing and you're lazy), (3) AN if the choice is between going off now when the coast is clear or waiting (and you have 6+ mana, and you're at above 14ish).

Still working on the spreadsheet, but here's some interesting conclusions from my analysis of Ad Nauseam:
The difference in Average CMC and expectation aren't really all that much different for the different builds. TES is the best at avg CMC (not including Ad Naus) of .78, but the others aren't far behind. Prosack ANT=0.83, Grim ANT=0.86, TNT=0.88.
If we pick an arbitrary starting life total of 14, the expectation for cards drawn is 18ish for TES, 17 for Prosack ANT, and 16ish for the other 2.

However, that doesn't actually tell the whole story, in fact it's a pretty crude way to look at Ad Nauseam. Just as important is the variance - for example how often we'll draw a bunch of 2s and 4s in a row compared to how often we'll draw a nice mix of 0s, 1s, and 2s.
The standard deviation for TES=0.80, Prosack ANT=0.90, and the other 2 are around 0.94. That is pretty sizeable decrease in standard deviation! So you would expect TES to have more consistent Ad Nauseams that flip lots of 1s, 0s, and some 2s, whereas the others will have more swinginess with strings of 2s and 4s.

Koby
03-27-2013, 01:00 AM
That's a good analysis Greg. Nothing can really model the experience of resolving Ad Nauseam with all the required pieces well. That's where the variance sometimes bites decks like ANT when you need to get that "one last card". Moral of the story - win big, lose big; just go for it anyway.

jin
03-27-2013, 02:28 AM
Really? I've been lazy with ANT and just gone for Ad Naus and gotten punished for it plenty of times when I could have thought a little bit and gone for a different kill.
I've always been of the opinion you should go for (1) tutor chain, (2) PiF (or if they have nothing and you're lazy), (3) AN if the choice is between going off now when the coast is clear or waiting (and you have 6+ mana, and you're at above 14ish).


By the time you move to plan C, you might not have 14 life. I said it should be plan A. This does not entail be lazy with your Ad Nauseams. It just means it should be your go to plan. Maybe Adam Prozak feels the same way, so from your analysis, he wants to make the best Ad Nauseam deck... I'm not sure.

Thanks for the analysis too.

Lemnear
03-27-2013, 02:55 AM
The conceptional mistake is investing 2/3 turns of cantripping to find a configuration of cards which turn Ad Nauseam on, just to find out one of these:

- that softcounters/discard already disrupted your gameplan
- creatures/burn took you below 10 Life
- Your flips off Ad Nauseam cause more damage and offer less Initial mana sources

The time I played this deck I could have cut Ad Nauseam and barely noticed

Dzra
03-27-2013, 06:00 AM
By the time you move to plan C, you might not have 14 life. I said it should be plan A. This does not entail be lazy with your Ad Nauseams. It just means it should be your go to plan.

I think by plan A, B, C etc he means that Tutor chain is preferred over PiF which is preferred over AdN. He isn't saying he is going to wait until the last possible moment to AdN as that would be fairly useless. Some hands/game states can produce multiple lines. If given the choice, those are simply the order of preference he will pursue. Some hands can't produce many lines and those are usually the ones where you have to AdN.

TES casts a better AdN. ANT gives you more play (it also can give your opponent more play, so you better be sure you want it).

JamieW89
03-27-2013, 07:07 AM
By the time you move to plan C, you might not have 14 life. I said it should be plan A. This does not entail be lazy with your Ad Nauseams. It just means it should be your go to plan. Maybe Adam Prozak feels the same way, so from your analysis, he wants to make the best Ad Nauseam deck... I'm not sure.

Thanks for the analysis too.

But making ANT the best possible Ad Nauseam deck is pointless since there is a deck which will always be a better AdN deck. This point has been made too often, but it has to be repeated as it's probably the most important feature of this deck, despite its name fooling many people. This is almost like saying Doomsday should become the best Empty the Warrens deck.

You can still cast a quick Ad Nauseam when it appears to be the best gameplan, and often you can just stop at safe life, pass and kill them next turn when it doesn't get there. However, the aim is to utilize tutor-chains and the graveyard engine whenever possible for risk-free wins. The fact that Ad Nauseam is plan C doesn't mean you try it after other plans fail, you try it when you expect that other plans will not work, this is often turn-1 and 2 despite it being the last resort option (as Dzra pointed out).

The spectrum goes:
Glass Cannon (SI/Belcher): All for speed, sacrifice protection
TES: Quick & good Ad Nauseams, strong usage of Empty the Warrens, Burning Wish versatility and good protection. Weaker to LD and soft counters (and discard, yes).
ANT: Robust, resilient, slightly slower risk-free wins using tutor-chains and PiF/IGG.
DD: Even more solid and slightly slower, most versatile protection suite. Manabase is an issue, however. (It is also hard to play.)

Lemnear
03-27-2013, 07:30 AM
TES: Quick & good Ad Nauseams, strong usage of Empty the Warrens, Burning Wish versatility and good protection. Weaker to LD and soft counters (and discard, yes).
ANT: Robust, resilient, slightly slower risk-free wins using tutor-chains and PiF/IGG.

http://img.playground.ru/images/6/4/double-facepalm.jpg

Pdingo
03-27-2013, 07:49 AM
Well i won yesterday a 4-0 Event.

I play this list:

1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Preordain
4 Duress
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Ad Nauseam
2 Misty Rainforest

SB: 4 Dark Confidant
SB: 1 Bayou
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Karakas

Match 1 against Uw Controll version. Not Miracle

G1: I know that he have a spell pierce in hand and 4 cards i dont see (He draw 3 with ancestrall vision)but i have 4 Lands in play + LED and petal(still in hand Infernal tutor and AD )play a DR and that resolve then i play AD and do not crack the LED ( Maybe he have a FOW), he havent and play only pierce and i pay 2. And win into AD(Have to Pass a Turn then going off again with Discard).When he had a FoW i can still go off next turn with Infernal Tutor. I mean this game i cant wait longer because he drawn only more counters.
G2: I mull to 5 and he have enough counters..
G3: I win easy with a good hand and discard.

1-0-0

Match 2 against MUD

G1: I can start and discard him chalice. then i cant me slow down and i can go off:)
G2: I take a mulligan and he cast a trinisphere then at his next turn i will decay his sphere but he play a second sphere..But have still a second 2 decay in hand;)
But then in he's next turn he wasted me and play a Lodestone Golem. Game
G3: I begin again mull to 6 then to 5 and have the nicest 5 card hand ever! fetch, Tutor, LED, DR, Cabal. Ok play it and Ad nausaum make it it.

2-0-0

Match 3 against Dredge

G1: He mull to 4 but have still loothing, loothing, land and a other card. But he dredge not good and is a turn to slow. I go off.
G2: He have a better hand then g1 but i'm a turn faster again and win with PiF

3-0-0

Match 4 against Dredge again

G1: Dredge can be fast but i think we are a little bit faster..
G2: He plays imp and i play a first turn Confi with petal and land, i mean BoBs are on the draw better then discard. He dredge a little bit and play Therapy but he says LED and not Tutor and i havent a LED in hand.
Then on my turn i draw a BS with confi and draw 1 more in the draw step^^ and have now zero lands in hand only BS, Ponder, Confi ,Tutor, DR, Cabal Rit. Now i can play Ponder that's seems better when i have no land in hand because i can shuffle but he goes off with he's dredgers. Or i play a BS for a aggressive Draw and to go off maybe. I play BS and i think it was the correct play, and draw LED, petal and a Land. haha cool and i go off with PiF.

4-0-0

Well my List plays very nice and makes a lot fun. I hope your enjoy. feel free.

Greets from Switzerland

JamieW89
03-27-2013, 08:15 AM
..

Because stating that a deck with more (preordains) and better (due to more shuffle effects) cantrips, better sb options (Confidant, Divert) versus discard, Cabal Ritual and MD Past in Flames is better against discard is clearly a totally insane claim.
The wins are "risk-free" in that you win on the spot, without variance involved assuming the opponent is neutralized, when using PiF (with the exception of rare situations when you need to rely on cantrips), IGG or simple tutor chaining. This is opposed to flipping cards with ad nauseam which might kill yourself or passing the turn with tokens which allows the opponent to topdeck. What is strange about this point?
You think ANT is not slightly slower than TES? I wouldn't say it's a lot slower, maybe just 'slower' would suffice.

And why not argue the points instead of posting a trolling picture..


..
Nice result, how do you like the sb carpets?

Lemnear
03-27-2013, 08:46 AM
amazing, you won most Games off raw speed and good draws than chaining Cantrips for turns...

quot erat demonstrandum


Because stating that a deck with more (preordains) and better (due to more shuffle effects) cantrips, better sb options (Confidant, Divert) versus discard, Cabal Ritual and MD Past in Flames is better against discard is clearly a totally insane claim.

Killing before Hymn hits is a strategy. I can create a dozen artificial situations in which Silence protects you from discard or a topdecked Burning Wish is miles better than a Preordain.


.
The wins are "risk-free" in that you win on the spot, without variance involved assuming the opponent is neutralized, when using PiF (with the exception of rare situations when you need to rely on cantrips), IGG or simple tutor chaining. This is opposed to flipping cards with ad nauseam which might kill yourself or passing the turn with tokens which allows the opponent to topdeck. What is strange about this point?
You think ANT is not slightly slower than TES? I wouldn't say it's a lot slower, maybe just 'slower' would suffice.

Sorry, but if you kill yourself off Ad Nauseam in TES aka don't know what possible cc flips remain in your Deck, you should stop playing the card/deck. If you, somehow but unlikely, are forced to flood the field with goblins, you can still prevent topdecked Outs via "chant-walking".

I wouldn't say that a rel. difference of 1.25 turns for killing should called "slightly". Against a Lot of decks, a List Turn is huge


And why not argue the points instead of posting a trolling picture..

Because we discussed ALL THIS 3 Pages ago. It's like the motherfucking B&R thread in which we repeat the Same cards, the Same arguments, the Same Claims, the Same whining every 7 pages

Pdingo
03-27-2013, 09:23 AM
@Jamie

Well i use it only against the UW controll Guy because he use Pierce, but they dont see play the last turnier. But i think they are pretty good against Decks like RUG or BUG. I take this list to the GPT for Strassbourg this Friday.

@ Lemnear

ok that was pretty good Draws but i dont write in this small each cantrip i use only the important.^^

Greets

Lemnear
03-27-2013, 09:32 AM
@ Lemnear

ok that was pretty good Draws but i dont write in this small each cantrip i use only the important.^^

Greets

of course not :)

However you might agree, that SPEED was an important, if not most important, aspect in at least 3 of the matches. I'm unable to analyze the First match under the aspect of being faster than the Ancestral Vision in that scenario and the possible Impact on the game/on your opponents Hand.

P.S.: Playing UW Control without Countertop/Miracles or SFM/Batterskull is plain wrong these days

aaronm678
03-27-2013, 09:40 AM
I'm also kind of curious why everyone is saying ANT is better than TES against discard -- Hymn on the draw against TES is way too slow, and they run so much more mana that Brainstorm is pretty much always going to save their hand from targeted discard.


@Koby

It seems like your testing is an argument for dropping the green splash. It's obviously not enough to make the CB matchup favorable, it seems like its better off to just ignore that and make the mana stable (you've basically cut 2 fetches for Gemstone Mines and taken up 5 SB slots on an un-winnable matchup anyway). I think if you ignore the CB matchup, you can make the Tempo/Stoneblade matchups a lot more even with Bobs and additional fetches, and you even have room to put a 6th tutor in the SB for matchups that you really want it (I really like having 6 tutors in any combo matchup, against almost everything else I have 5 after SB)

@Lemnear

1.25 turns slower is definitely exaggerating, except MAYBE if you're talking 100% goldfishing (even then, I think its probably turn 3 vs turn 2 average). ANT is generally a turn 3 deck with protection (it uses discard to set up a turn 3 kill), with the occasional turn 2 (but very rarely if it needs discard), and the occasional turn 4. TES is generally a turn 2-3 deck (closer to 3) if it needs protection, since it often needs to generate W, B, and R on the combo turn, which can take some time to set up.

jin
03-27-2013, 10:29 AM
The time I played this deck I could have cut Ad Nauseam and barely noticed

This is probably true for many ANT players. It's a shame.


I think by plan A, B, C etc he means that Tutor chain is preferred over PiF which is preferred over AdN. He isn't saying he is going to wait until the last possible moment to AdN as that would be fairly useless. Some hands/game states can produce multiple lines. If given the choice, those are simply the order of preference he will pursue. Some hands can't produce many lines and those are usually the ones where you have to AdN.

TES casts a better AdN. ANT gives you more play (it also can give your opponent more play, so you better be sure you want it).

Thanks for clearing that up. Miscommunication I suppose. I don't know if ANT gives more plays though. Burning Wish gives TES access to a lot of storm engines.


But making ANT the best possible Ad Nauseam deck is pointless since there is a deck which will always be a better AdN deck. This point has been made too often, but it has to be repeated as it's probably the most important feature of this deck, despite its name fooling many people. This is almost like saying Doomsday should become the best Empty the Warrens deck.


Would ANT still be scary when your opponent aren't afraid of your Ad Nauseam? I would assume you'd want to maximize your strongest card, not play cards that weaken it. Maybe you should play Grim Tutor in the Ad Nauseam slot and move Ad Nauseam to your SB....

aaronm678
03-27-2013, 11:06 AM
Would ANT still be scary when your opponent aren't afraid of your Ad Nauseam? I would assume you'd want to maximize your strongest card, not play cards that weaken it. Maybe you should play Grim Tutor in the Ad Nauseam slot and move Ad Nauseam to your SB....

You can play Ad Nauseam in this deck without it being your primary strategy...if you want Ad Nauseam as your primary strategy, you probably need to play 3+ Chrome Mox, and you probably also want BW so you can win off Ad Naus without an LED (in other words, you should play TES).

Ad Naus fills an important role in the deck -- it gives us a way to win when we generate a million mana and are facing Graveyard hate, but can't generate enough mana to tutor chain, and it's just a way to draw 10 cards for 10 life at instant speed. Both are pretty good in a lot of really popular matchups, even if we're not using it as our primary strategy.

Pdingo
03-27-2013, 11:10 AM
@Lemnear

Agree, Speed was very important in those Match ups. I think in the first Game i cant play faster because i have to play around pierce, clique and and and.., but have to go off.^^

Yes i think to that UW control without SFM and Top etc. is wrong. But sometimes you play against fishes.;)

Megadeus
03-27-2013, 01:21 PM
Really? I've been lazy with ANT and just gone for Ad Naus and gotten punished for it plenty of times when I could have thought a little bit and gone for a different kill.
I've always been of the opinion you should go for (1) tutor chain, (2) PiF (or if they have nothing and you're lazy), (3) AN if the choice is between going off now when the coast is clear or waiting (and you have 6+ mana, and you're at above 14ish).

Still working on the spreadsheet, but here's some interesting conclusions from my analysis of Ad Nauseam:
The difference in Average CMC and expectation aren't really all that much different for the different builds. TES is the best at avg CMC (not including Ad Naus) of .78, but the others aren't far behind. Prosack ANT=0.83, Grim ANT=0.86, TNT=0.88.
If we pick an arbitrary starting life total of 14, the expectation for cards drawn is 18ish for TES, 17 for Prosack ANT, and 16ish for the other 2.

However, that doesn't actually tell the whole story, in fact it's a pretty crude way to look at Ad Nauseam. Just as important is the variance - for example how often we'll draw a bunch of 2s and 4s in a row compared to how often we'll draw a nice mix of 0s, 1s, and 2s.
The standard deviation for TES=0.80, Prosack ANT=0.90, and the other 2 are around 0.94. That is pretty sizeable decrease in standard deviation! So you would expect TES to have more consistent Ad Nauseams that flip lots of 1s, 0s, and some 2s, whereas the others will have more swinginess with strings of 2s and 4s.
You also need to remember that TES plays more free mana in chrome Mox. You not only draw another card or two, but you have a much better chance in going off on the same turn that you cast Ad Nauseam.

codegoblin
03-27-2013, 06:14 PM
As promised, here's my testing log from December. Not much has changed in Legacy, except metagame shifts, but the deck is basically the same.

Clicky the linky (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0An9giloPs1B4dHRjd3h1UlpaUER1QWVDQk9xY2pyVWc&usp=sharing)

Hey this is Cody from SoCal btw ...

Yeah those non-BUG FoW w/l ratios seem really wrong to me, personally. Do you have a similar study conducted with TES? I'm also gonna conduct a similar test using the following list:
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=4636

I was a big time proponent of the Teemo list until recent playtesting with the wishless cantrip list ... which has led me to understand the resiliency of having those draw spells.

In my experience, the combo RB ritual thing can get really awkward in TES, as well as the reliance on EtW (which I hate), and those are actually the main things that deter me from continuing to play that deck. I like Silence, don't get me wrong ... actually, no, LOVE it. If I could reliably get silence into an all B tutor storm deck that would be tits. Another thing is I'm pretty sure that ad nauseam is always luck dependent no matter what deck it's in. Just because TES has more reliable ad nauseams doesn't mean it can't whiff.

Also, jeez, how often are you guys not floating mana when you ad nauseam playing AnT? It should go without saying, but that's a big difference between AnT and TES. Floating mana into it, even 1, and more often than not I get the win.

Koby
03-27-2013, 06:43 PM
Assuming each win represents prizes worth 3.1 tix, and each match eats 2 tix; well that data cost me a bit to generate. :P
Once I noticed my FOW matches were not winning as often as I would have thought I would; I scrapped the deck.

codegoblin
03-27-2013, 07:28 PM
Assuming each win represents prizes worth 3.1 tix, and each match eats 2 tix; well that data cost me a bit to generate. :P
Once I noticed my FOW matches were not winning as often as I would have thought I would; I scrapped the deck.

Pffft ... it's called cockatrice, bro! Anyways, I'd still like to see a similar study conducted with TES. it'd be nice to get real metrics on these decks. I like both, but I really love the inevitability of ANT

Dark Ritual
03-27-2013, 11:44 PM
This is probably true for many ANT players. It's a shame.



Thanks for clearing that up. Miscommunication I suppose. I don't know if ANT gives more plays though. Burning Wish gives TES access to a lot of storm engines.



Would ANT still be scary when your opponent aren't afraid of your Ad Nauseam? I would assume you'd want to maximize your strongest card, not play cards that weaken it. Maybe you should play Grim Tutor in the Ad Nauseam slot and move Ad Nauseam to your SB....

Ad nauseam is literally flipping a coin to determine if you win or lose if your opponent has a flipped delver (or even unflipped delver) in play. This is why I hate casting the card outside of TES. TES has 7 initial mana sources post nauseam if it used a land drop. We have 4 without a landdrop remaining. The reason PiF and tutor chaining are the preferred kill methods are because they are GUARANTEED to kill the opponent if they have no interaction. It really doesn't take much skill to play ad nauseam optimally. Okay, so I flip until I hit petal, dark rit, LED, infernal tutor and then play all of those into a tendrils that is almost guaranteed to kill the opponent at that point? And it's a bad idea to flip when I'm at 4 or less life if tendrils and PiF are still in the deck? Shocking. Resolving ad nauseam isn't rocket science, it's actually quite easy if you can do math on the fly and if you can't do math on the fly, why are you playing storm combo again?

@Lemnear: So speed mattered against dredge and MUD. Shocker that speed matters in the combo mirror and against a deck with no countermagic but permanent based disruption.

I wouldn't ever drop the green splash. How is echoing truth better than abrupt decay again? On top of that, it really doesn't weaken the manabase much at all. The only difference is if you run trop MD or SB, and if you run trop sideboard with 2 islands maindeck, the manabase is actually strengthened as boarding in an additional land is actually useful against RUG even if it is just an island that can be wastelanded.

If you want the best possible ad nauseam deck, play TES with 4 chrome mox and 4 petal. Then ad nauseam can almost never whiff at 13+ life. Just be aware of the shitty topdecks that chrome mox offers because chrome mox is terrible when it isn't flipped off of AdN typically outside of corner cases at least in my experiences with the card in TES.

phazonmutant
03-28-2013, 02:00 AM
In my experience, the combo RB ritual thing can get really awkward in TES, as well as the reliance on EtW (which I hate), and those are actually the main things that deter me from continuing to play that deck. I like Silence, don't get me wrong ... actually, no, LOVE it. If I could reliably get silence into an all B tutor storm deck that would be tits. Another thing is I'm pretty sure that ad nauseam is always luck dependent no matter what deck it's in. Just because TES has more reliable ad nauseams doesn't mean it can't whiff.

I prefer to think of it as TES getting to play Empty (and have it be good). We can do graveyard loops, but we also have the potentially to make a quick or low-resource 10 goblins, something that fewer than half the decks seeing play can realistically recover from. Also, you obviously don't go for Empty if you see they have ways to answer it and can't Duress or Chant-walk them.
Keep in mind that Empty doesn't have to deal the full 20, it just has to deal enough that 2 or 3 cards and a Burning Wish can turn into a Grapeshot kill. There's definitely an element of risk involved with Empty, but far less that it's made out to be, and for sure less risk than a quick Ad Naus out of ANT.

You're definitely right that TES's Ad Naus's can whiff. Just tonight I had only like a 80% win rate off of Ad Naus, pretty comparable to ANT with 1 floating. Nature of the deck, I suppose.



It really doesn't take much skill to play ad nauseam optimally. Okay, so I flip until I hit petal, dark rit, LED, infernal tutor and then play all of those into a tendrils that is almost guaranteed to kill the opponent at that point? And it's a bad idea to flip when I'm at 4 or less life if tendrils and PiF are still in the deck? Shocking. Resolving ad nauseam isn't rocket science, it's actually quite easy if you can do math on the fly and if you can't do math on the fly, why are you playing storm combo again?

Yeah, that pretty much describes storm, and people still consider it "hard to play". If anything, PiF is easier - you don't even bother counting most times! If: tutor and 3+ rituals, then PiF! Else, durdle.

codegoblin
03-28-2013, 03:35 AM
I prefer to think of it as TES getting to play Empty (and have it be good). We can do graveyard loops, but we also have the potentially to make a quick or low-resource 10 goblins, something that fewer than half the decks seeing play can realistically recover from. Also, you obviously don't go for Empty if you see they have ways to answer it and can't Duress or Chant-walk them.
Keep in mind that Empty doesn't have to deal the full 20, it just has to deal enough that 2 or 3 cards and a Burning Wish can turn into a Grapeshot kill. There's definitely an element of risk involved with Empty, but far less that it's made out to be, and for sure less risk than a quick Ad Naus out of ANT.

You're definitely right that TES's Ad Naus's can whiff. Just tonight I had only like a 80% win rate off of Ad Naus, pretty comparable to ANT with 1 floating. Nature of the deck, I suppose.

My problem with empty is that sometimes it is the only option in your hand, and having to pass the turn vs fast combo f'ing sucks, OR they're playing white and/or blue and might have access to terminus, detention sphere, or echoing truth (i've seen it a fair amount actually). I think I take the prosak view where it's kinda like ... damn, if I'm gonna combo off, I want the kill THIS turn. Maybe I'll test TES a little more. I've taken it to a couple events and done OK with it, maybe my mind is too much in the mindset of ANT though. I feel like they are much different decks ... so much so that I have a hard time considering either one of them "better." That being said, if there are empirical findings towards one being the better, I'd love to hear any/all of it.

aaronm678
03-28-2013, 06:23 AM
I wouldn't ever drop the green splash. How is echoing truth better than abrupt decay again? On top of that, it really doesn't weaken the manabase much at all. The only difference is if you run trop MD or SB, and if you run trop sideboard with 2 islands maindeck, the manabase is actually strengthened as boarding in an additional land is actually useful against RUG even if it is just an island that can be wastelanded.


Abrupt decay is much worse than Chain of Vapor, which is the card most people cut for it. If not chain, than slaughter pact, echoing truth, pyroclasm - there are a lot of more situational cards that are a lot better than decay, the only thing abrupt decay does better is kill Counterbalance (and I guess chalice on two, but not terribly relevant). If MUD is popular in your meta, keep decay, otherwise there are a lot of better options that don't require a splash.

With 3 basics, 2 gemstone, 3 duals, that puts you at 7 fetches. I'm much more comfortable at 8 or 9. You can run an additional land in the SB if you want, it doesn't need to be a trop. I generally run 16 land main and cut it in matches I don't need it, which is basically the same thing.

Dark Ritual
03-28-2013, 07:59 PM
Abrupt decay is much worse than Chain of Vapor, which is the card most people cut for it. If not chain, than slaughter pact, echoing truth, pyroclasm - there are a lot of more situational cards that are a lot better than decay, the only thing abrupt decay does better is kill Counterbalance (and I guess chalice on two, but not terribly relevant). If MUD is popular in your meta, keep decay, otherwise there are a lot of better options that don't require a splash.

With 3 basics, 2 gemstone, 3 duals, that puts you at 7 fetches. I'm much more comfortable at 8 or 9. You can run an additional land in the SB if you want, it doesn't need to be a trop. I generally run 16 land main and cut it in matches I don't need it, which is basically the same thing.

Chain of vapor is a lot worse against countermagic than abrupt decay. As for the 2 gemstones, I still don't get why those aren't 2 more fetchlands. In a 16 cantrip list no less, gemstone mine is only good in the graveyard if we have the combo assembled or when it gives exactsies via threshed cabal rit. First thing I'm doing to Prosak's list is -2 gemstone mine +2 some fetchlands to find the green source postboard if I need it. Gemstone mine is played best in 4-5 color decks like TES while in ANT we're really only two colors with tiny splashes for a 3rd and 4th color that we can find with fetchlands just as easily. Strengthening brainstorm and ponder is also something I'm not opposed to, which fetchlands improve greatly.

The only ways that decay is worse than CoV is when you actually use CoV as a storm engine to bounce all your artifacts to hand to get to 10 storm via 4 artifacts, CoV, 4 artifacts, tutor, tendrils.

Also, chalice on two is not relevant? Oh let's see, that infernal tutor I've been digging for the whole game is dead and that's my route to victory? You're right, chalice on two is not relevant at all against us. The reason abrupt decay is so good is it permanently removes the card from play so the opponent can't replay it if they get the chance. Card also kills rest in peace, which is quite relevant against us. There's a reason decay became a sideboard staple the moment it was released, it can deal with EVERYTHING except leylines and jace, which we don't want them to untap with anyways as we're generally losing at that point to their overwhelming countermagic backup. Cut the card if you want, you'll wish you had it when you face miracles or that stupid round 1 MUD player.

DragoFireheart
03-28-2013, 08:21 PM
the only thing abrupt decay does better is kill Counterbalance

And ignores Force of Will. And Spell Pierce. And Daze. And any other counterspells.

aaronm678
03-28-2013, 09:56 PM
And ignores Force of Will. And Spell Pierce. And Daze. And any other counterspells.

...what permanents are you killing against decks with Force, Pierce, and Daze? The occasional Leyline out of Sneak and Show? Maybe, very rarely, a meddling mage out of U/W? The first can't be decayed anyway, and the second I've found to be pretty ineffective anyway (there isn't really anything to name that is overly crippling). It can be nice to bring like...one decay in against RUG sometimes, but not being able to do that isn't the end of the world.

And Decay is much worse in a lot of ways than Chain - 1 mana more is a lot against Thalia (one of the most common SB cards against us), and it doesn't hit Leyline (another fairly common SB card with discard decks becoming more popular).

I was saying Chalice isn't a very popular card, and the decks that play it usually don't play it on two until late game. If you expect MUD, decay is probably better...but it's not a great deck, and you're not terribly likely to face it.

As far as Rest in Piece - miracles is a matchup I think I'm just abandoning - I don't really like splashing a full color and taking 5 SB slots to bring one matchup from 10% to 20%, I think we can strengthen actual winnable matchups instead.

Dzra
03-28-2013, 10:01 PM
Abrupt Decay is pretty good... I haven't been running Gemstone Mines. Fetches have been plenty for me to find G.

Speaking of colors, is there a reason to run Badlands over Volcanic or to run Bayou vs Tropical?

Asthereal
03-29-2013, 04:27 AM
Speaking of colors, is there a reason to run Badlands over Volcanic or to run Bayou vs Tropical?
Surgical Extraction / Extirpate?

I prefer two Volcanics to one Volcanic and one Badlands.
Blue is more important than black, in my opinion.

If you are in a good shape, you will win anyway. Petal and Mox also make black mana to go off from.
If you are in a bad shape, you need to cantrip yourself out of it. That requires blue mana, and preferably not from Petal or Mox.

Pdingo
03-29-2013, 04:41 PM
Well today was a gpt trial in Zurich and i go there with my ANT list that i posted 1-2 pages before.
We was 34 player and i came with a friend that played BUG Agent.
Now my little report.

Match 1against URW Delver

g1:i have in hand enough rituals+ Leds and a tendril.But no tutor but i know hr have only 1 daze in hand and no other counter(he's on 18 life and i can only make 8 storm. i try to go off and have two lands open and try with a led and he play a the daze and here are my 9 storm:)
g2: i discard him a stifle and he have nothing and go off.
1-0-0

Match 2 against my friend with BUG agent.

g1: he doesnt have a hymn and i go off eas

g2: he have to.much disrupt and i draw ro.much lands and i fizzle on 1.life..

g3: i win it with PiF and a discarded thoughtseize and a 2 BoBs on the field.

2-0-0

Match 3 against elves combo

g1: i win easy a turn faster.

g2: discard him 2 glimpse with cabal therapy and he have no hate and i go off faster again.

Match 4 against reanimate but we drawet because he was sure that he wins one for top 8(he doesn't) and was hungry
good for me because reanimate is not the best match up..

3-0-1

Match 5 against goblins (Mono R)

g1:he have not a turn 1 lackey anyway i go off to fast and i win.

g2: He mull to 5 because he drawn nothing and no mindbreak trap and i have a lot times and i win, luck for.me.

4-0-1

Match 6 against Esper stoneblade

We draw.

4-0-2

So i was now second(2th) and became 7 gatecrash boosters.

Top 8

match 7 mirror ANT

g1:i disrupt him better than me and i win.
g2: the same.

Match 8 semi finals against the elves player.

g1: this time was the first time i didn't find a tutor with cantrips and was to.slow, but can go off with PiF+ a lot rituals nextt turn into a lot cantrips, then he fetch eot and i shuffle and he draw top deck Natural Order. shit happens

G2: this time have double mindbreal trap and 1 order+ the behemotj in hand and i play a duress and i have to discard he's NO because he can go off with it into regal force next turn. he have it next turn abd was to fast with a hardcast behemoth and beat me..

well shit happens but i by very happy with today and the Deck:DD

i hope you enjoy. Feel free

greets.from Switzerland

Pdingo

phazonmutant
03-29-2013, 05:10 PM
I'm not sure what the best way to host the storm worksheet that I've been working on is.

Here's a public link hosted through my Dropbox account, but not sure if that's the best way to go:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0ue3zlxavew7kdg/Storm%20worksheet.xlsx?m

Take a look and tell me if there's anything that's wrong, you'd like to see added, if it's useful, etc. And yeah, the formatting and highlighting is awful.

Dark Ritual
03-30-2013, 12:34 AM
...what permanents are you killing against decks with Force, Pierce, and Daze? The occasional Leyline out of Sneak and Show? Maybe, very rarely, a meddling mage out of U/W? The first can't be decayed anyway, and the second I've found to be pretty ineffective anyway (there isn't really anything to name that is overly crippling). It can be nice to bring like...one decay in against RUG sometimes, but not being able to do that isn't the end of the world.

And Decay is much worse in a lot of ways than Chain - 1 mana more is a lot against Thalia (one of the most common SB cards against us), and it doesn't hit Leyline (another fairly common SB card with discard decks becoming more popular).

I was saying Chalice isn't a very popular card, and the decks that play it usually don't play it on two until late game. If you expect MUD, decay is probably better...but it's not a great deck, and you're not terribly likely to face it.

As far as Rest in Piece - miracles is a matchup I think I'm just abandoning - I don't really like splashing a full color and taking 5 SB slots to bring one matchup from 10% to 20%, I think we can strengthen actual winnable matchups instead.

Ignore UW Countertop Miracles? Pretty hard considering the deck is tier 1, good luck with that.

I playtested some against UW Miracles preboard tonight without counterbalance maindeck but tops, cliques, no SFMs, snapcasters, snares, pierces, FoWs, and counterspells. I think I dropped 2 games out of something like 6 or more, granted he didn't have counterbalance maindeck. But I feel the matchup is quite winnable with my list, which is 15 cantrips with an extra duress over the 4th preordain, which helped out a lot against UW. We didn't play postboard games, which would have admittedly been a struggle with his sideboard of 4 flusterstorm, 4 CB, 2 Surgical Extraction, and some other 1 of I can't think of right now that may or may not be in his sideboard. Going to rock this build tomorrow at a 30ish person event:

Lands 15
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp

Ritual Effects 16
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

Cantrips 15
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Preordain

Business 7
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ad Nauseam

Protection 7
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress

Sideboard 15
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Dark Confidant
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony

phazonmutant
03-30-2013, 05:06 AM
Wait, so you're saying that you're advantaged against a bad UW list? Storm punishes bad deckbuilding? That's shocking.

It's as hard to find a good UW/Miracles player as it is to find a competent storm player. Playtesting against inferior opponents is really not useful. The only reason I've beat good UW miracles players is being faster than they can get disruption online preboard, and postboard is all about drawing Abrupt Decay.

JamieW89
03-30-2013, 01:48 PM
After losing to MUD twice in the GP Utrecht side event, I lost to mono white deck with chalices, thalia & spheres in the QF of a GPT today (went undefeated in the swiss versus Esper Blade, Omnitell, Painter and IDs versus Dragon Stompy + Zoo). There were also mono-red painter, dragon stompy and chalice tezzeret decks in the top-8. I'm getting a little sick of chalice decks, but I guess I'll have to play more hate for it at the GP.
I played the UB list with PiF (1 Grim Tutor, 7 Discard, 2 Preordain, 15 Lands) and green in the board. It was pretty solid all day.

Dark Ritual
03-30-2013, 10:20 PM
Wait, so you're saying that you're advantaged against a bad UW list? Storm punishes bad deckbuilding? That's shocking.

It's as hard to find a good UW/Miracles player as it is to find a competent storm player. Playtesting against inferior opponents is really not useful. The only reason I've beat good UW miracles players is being faster than they can get disruption online preboard, and postboard is all about drawing Abrupt Decay.

The list still had a lot of countermagic in it. Most UW lists don't even run spell pierce, which is pretty annoying to play against. And sensei's divining top is still really good against a storm deck without chant effects it turns out. Sure, it isn't the norm, but the opponent I tested against isn't a bad player at all. Heck, it was the list of a magic player I respect a lot (CuthberttheCat on here.) I'm confident that postboard it would be a good matchup even after counterbalance and flusterstorm because of the bobs, carpets, and abrupt decays in my sideboard. Sure, no counterbalance game 1 gives us probably a 5% percentage boost in a hundred games, maybe 10%. But games 2 and 3 will still be giant grindfests in all likelihood.

Went 3-2 today at a 36 person tournament. Lost to Sneak and Show round 1 (didn't know what he was on game 1, I cantripped over duress. Turn 2 griselbrand on the play is unbeatable it turns out, especially when I missed on a black source for multiple turns despite my cantrip.) Game 2 when I probed him he just had a handful of not combo cards outside sneak attack but no fatty. He drew emrakul and show and tell off the top with no library manipulation and I died to the spaghetti monster. Won the next 3 rounds against esperblade, UR trinket delver naught, and lands. Lost the last round against junk/rock/dark horizons/you pick a name with leyline of sanctity in the board as a 4 of most likely as he saw it both postboard games. Won game 1 with ease. Games 2 and 3, he got gaddock teeg x2 in game 2 after I decayed the first one he zenithed for another one (thought it was pretty strange that he had 2 teeg's in his 75, most zenith based decks run just 1.) Still almost won game 2, but combo'ing off through double deathrite was exceedingly difficult after he ate my lone tutor when I resolved IGG (didn't have the PiF left in the deck since he had zero counterspells so I switched the 2.) Game 3, I drew all 4 infernal tutors with an active bob and fizzled with ad nauseam from 14, then again I had 1 CoV left in the deck and just 1 IGG to recur the one in the yard to get past his leyline of sanctity. Didn't find anything before he killed both my bobs with golgari charm of all things then hit me for exactsies with a goyf that I was planning to chump. The 2 lone bounce spells definitely hurt in the leyline matchup, but leyline isn't exactly common. Overall I felt quite pleased with the deck, would run it again, but would probably run more bounce over carpets, which I boarded in just once the entire day against stoneblade but they never showed up. More bounce would have been useful, and maybe the 4th duress.

PartyMonster
04-01-2013, 11:38 PM
I'm Looking to build ANT shortly. What does the ideal list look like right now?

Full 75 please

Thanks

beebles
04-01-2013, 11:45 PM
After losing to MUD twice in the GP Utrecht side event, I lost to mono white deck with chalices, thalia & spheres in the QF of a GPT today (went undefeated in the swiss versus Esper Blade, Omnitell, Painter and IDs versus Dragon Stompy + Zoo). There were also mono-red painter, dragon stompy and chalice tezzeret decks in the top-8. I'm getting a little sick of chalice decks, but I guess I'll have to play more hate for it at the GP.
I played the UB list with PiF (1 Grim Tutor, 7 Discard, 2 Preordain, 15 Lands) and green in the board. It was pretty solid all day.

Eh I feel your pain I play in a store in my area infested with like 4 guys that play MUD fanatically. I have resorted to good old Naturalize out of the SB as a 2 of it cures those Lodestone Woes and it is nice to have a permanent out to Leyline of Sanctity (also annoyingly popular). Sure people will laugh and snicker but it is very versatile and I don't care what anyone says it is good.

phazonmutant
04-02-2013, 12:54 AM
Eh I feel your pain I play in a store in my area infested with like 4 guys that play MUD fanatically. I have resorted to good old Naturalize out of the SB as a 2 of it cures those Lodestone Woes and it is nice to have a permanent out to Leyline of Sanctity (also annoyingly popular). Sure people will laugh and snicker but it is very versatile and I don't care what anyone says it is good.

Disenchant does sound much better than being a turn faster and having Burning Wish access to Hull Breech in addition to Abrupt Decay.

Danserious
04-02-2013, 09:40 AM
I play the burning wish version, and my LGS has a lot of people playing MUD and affinity. I have one meltdown in the board, it's awesome. Kills chalice, all artifact lands, things like tormods crypt. And with burning wish you can have it in G1, which is great if they resolve a chalice G1T1.

I realize it might not be the best sideboard option for a big tournament, but in my local meta it is great.

Asthereal
04-02-2013, 09:59 AM
I'm Looking to build ANT shortly. What does the ideal list look like right now?

Full 75 please

Thanks
Funny guy. Ideal list? There is no ideal list.
Some say Wish ANT is optimal.
Some say 1-2 Grim Tutor is optimal.
Some say 16 cantrip ANT is optimal.

You'll have to build something yourself out of:

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
0-4 Preordain

4 Infernal Tutor
0-3 Burning Wish
0-2 Grim Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
0-2 Chrome Mox

2-4 Duress
2-4 Cabal Therapy

2 Underground Sea
1-2 Volcanic Island
0-1 Tropical Island
0-1 Badlands
1-2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4-6 other U/B fetch lands

Side:
0-2 Karakas (edited in, forgot about that option)
2-3 Chain of Vapor
3-4 Abrupt Decay
0-3 Xantid Swarm
0-3 Carpet of Flowers
0-1 Tropical Island
0-2 Additional discard spells
0-3 Additional kill spells (Tendrils, Empty the Warrens)
0-2 Additional enigine spells (Iggy or so)
0-7 Wish Board spells. Options:
- Tendrils
- Empty the Warrens
- Ill-Gotten Gains
- Past in Flames
- Reforge the Soul
- Diminishing Returns (bad with Cabal Ritual though)
- Grim Tutor
- Grapeshot
- Death Mark
- Pyroclasm
- Shattering Spree or other removal

Good luck!

phazonmutant
04-02-2013, 04:25 PM
I'm Looking to build ANT shortly. What does the ideal list look like right now?

Full 75 please

Thanks

I have a link to an excel spreadsheet with some data in my signature. There's decklists for each build of storm combo that has top8'd recently and some summaries of their descriptive statistics.

ThomasDowd
04-03-2013, 12:05 AM
Funny guy. Ideal list? There is no ideal list.
Some say Wish ANT is optimal.
Some say 1-2 Grim Tutor is optimal.
Some say 16 cantrip ANT is optimal.

You'll have to build something yourself out of:

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
0-4 Preordain

4 Infernal Tutor
0-3 Burning Wish
0-2 Grim Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
0-2 Chrome Mox

2-4 Duress
2-4 Cabal Therapy

2 Underground Sea
1-2 Volcanic Island
0-1 Tropical Island
0-1 Badlands
1-2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4-6 other U/B fetch lands

Side:
2-3 Chain of Vapor
3-4 Abrupt Decay
0-3 Xantid Swarm
0-3 Carpet of Flowers
0-1 Tropical Island
0-2 Additional discard spells
0-3 Additional kill spells (Tendrils, Empty the Warrens)
0-2 Additional enigine spells (Iggy or so)
0-7 Wish Board spells. Options:
- Tendrils
- Empty the Warrens
- Ill-Gotten Gains
- Past in Flames
- Reforge the Soul
- Diminishing Returns (bad with Cabal Ritual though)
- Grim Tutor
- Grapeshot
- Death Mark
- Pyroclasm
- Shattering Spree or other removal

Good luck!

You forgot karakas for the board :)

but great breakdown.

edit: nice spreadsheet too, going to make some modifications for the build i use to see some things but sweet!

Zieby
04-03-2013, 05:10 AM
Funny guy. Ideal list? There is no ideal list.
Some say Wish ANT is optimal.
Some say 1-2 Grim Tutor is optimal.
Some say 16 cantrip ANT is optimal.

You'll have to build something yourself out of:

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
0-4 Preordain

4 Infernal Tutor
0-3 Burning Wish
0-2 Grim Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
0-2 Chrome Mox

2-4 Duress
2-4 Cabal Therapy

2 Underground Sea
1-2 Volcanic Island
0-1 Tropical Island
0-1 Badlands
1-2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4-6 other U/B fetch lands

Side:
2-3 Chain of Vapor
3-4 Abrupt Decay
0-3 Xantid Swarm
0-3 Carpet of Flowers
0-1 Tropical Island
0-2 Additional discard spells
0-3 Additional kill spells (Tendrils, Empty the Warrens)
0-2 Additional enigine spells (Iggy or so)
0-7 Wish Board spells. Options:
- Tendrils
- Empty the Warrens
- Ill-Gotten Gains
- Past in Flames
- Reforge the Soul
- Diminishing Returns (bad with Cabal Ritual though)
- Grim Tutor
- Grapeshot
- Death Mark
- Pyroclasm
- Shattering Spree or other removal

Good luck!
Very nice breakdown, maybe it is time we can make a good Primer where above list is a very good starting point.


I have a link to an excel spreadsheet with some data in my signature. There's decklists for each build of storm combo that has top8'd recently and some summaries of their descriptive statistics.
Nice sheet, it gives a very nice overview of the different builds, thanks.

Asthereal
04-03-2013, 09:47 AM
Added Karakas to the optional sideboard cards.
I'd only consider them if I also play white for Chant effects, but some play them.

Pehaps good to mention the rough numbers for types of cards:
- Lands: 14-16
- Protection: 6-7
- Cantrips: 12-16
- Business: 7-10
- Accelleration: 16-18
More cantrips usually means less of the rest (except for lands, because cantrips need lands).

Pelikanudo
04-06-2013, 09:18 AM
To whom mnay interest:

I think this is the most optimal list:

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=10493

As said, Timo is ritgh about strategies on how to side, Base and Side,

You all just need to agree with his conclusions.

The other list, Grim Tutor and No B.Wish is the other ANT build which is also another good approach.

I just wanted to say I tested that Timo List and as Timo said, is simply broken.

Options:
0/1 Moxen instead 14/15 Lands.
No other changes should be made to the List.

A point, Therapy is in conjuntion with LED and I.T. is one of the bests cards in the deck.

Dark Ritual
04-06-2013, 07:19 PM
To whom mnay interest:

I think this is the most optimal list:

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=10493

As said, Timo is ritgh about strategies on how to side, Base and Side,

You all just need to agree with his conclusions.

The other list, Grim Tutor and No B.Wish is the other ANT build which is also another good approach.

I just wanted to say I tested that Timo List and as Timo said, is simply broken.

Options:
0/1 Moxen instead 14/15 Lands.
No other changes should be made to the List.

A point, Therapy is in conjuntion with LED and I.T. is one of the bests cards in the deck.

Burning wish sucks. No idea why people try to shove that card into a deck with zero chrome mox, since as a business spell it is incredibly clunky and it's even worse when you don't have rite of flame but instead have just dark ritual and cabal ritual as acceleration. Using petal to wish a turn early is not remotely good barring corner cases, as you don't want to -1 card in hand to fire wish off a turn earlier to make it less clunky. If you want to play wish so badly, play TES. That and doomsday are the only storm decks in legacy that should be running the card along with SITES (red spanish inquisition.) I've played with Timo's storm list that he won Ghent with with a slightly different protection suite namely no IoK's but instead more duress and shelved it due to how bad wish is in the deck. Running more cantrips over wish makes us more resilient to wasteland, I still find the pieces I need on time, and I don't have to weaken the manabase to include wish. As for 'needing to agree' with his conclusions, I don't have to one bit. Wish is donkey-ass in ANT. Adam Prosak just top 8'ed the invitational with 16 cantrip ANT today and had a very good run with ANT, going 7-1 or 8-0 with it in the legacy portion despite everyone expecting to face combo at the invitational today due to TES and ANT winning opens back to back in the past 2 weeks.

Pdingo
04-07-2013, 02:13 AM
@ Burning Wish
Dark ritual you are right i tested BW a lot and have to say it isn't good
bader AD Nauseam and les cantrips...
The only positive thing is BW allowed you more missplay.into empty the warrens or maybe cabal therapy.

16 cantrips is the right thing.;)


Play today again with my ANT list in a legacy turnier.

nodahero
04-07-2013, 02:38 AM
Where is this sideboard guide from Timo? I looked back and couldn't find it. In advance, thanks.

mike1987
04-07-2013, 05:31 AM
Where is this sideboard guide from Timo? I looked back and couldn't find it. In advance, thanks.

Its here on eternal central.

http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=3216

Pdingo
04-07-2013, 10:21 AM
Today i was bad in a turnier with 5 rounds with UBr(PiF) .The last two turnier i was first and second with this list but today
was only shitty..1-4 after 5 rounds but well was not my day shit happens.
The next turnier i play is the GP strassbourg.
I wll probably play ANT. ;)

nodahero
04-07-2013, 12:46 PM
So from what I read on your Burning Wish isn't good... but yet Timo runs three in his list. Is the consensus that Wish isn't good enough?

GoblinSettler
04-07-2013, 04:18 PM
There are two camps. ANT with Burning Wish (sometimes known as TNT) and ANT with sixteen cantrips (or Grim Tutor). I would not say there is a consensus about Burning Wish.

Lemnear
04-07-2013, 04:32 PM
I would say it depends if you consider Burning Wish -> EtW strong in your meta or if you fear Surgical Extraction (Infernal, Tendrils) and/or Massive GY Removal (Leyline, DRS, RIP) out of Sideboards.

I don't think Wishes pair well with the nature of this particular storm playtype and Cabal Rituals



Today i was bad in a turnier with 5 rounds with UBr(PiF) .The last two turnier i was first and second with this list but today
was only shitty..1-4 after 5 rounds but well was not my day shit happens.
The next turnier i play is the GP strassbourg.
I wll probably play ANT. ;)

Would you enlight is about the issues, werter Eidgenosse? :)

Edit: P.S.: it's tournament ;)

Pelikanudo
04-07-2013, 05:45 PM
Burning wish sucks. No idea why people try to shove that card into a deck with zero chrome mox, since as a business spell it is incredibly clunky and it's even worse when you don't have rite of flame but instead have just dark ritual and cabal ritual as acceleration. Using petal to wish a turn early is not remotely good barring corner cases, as you don't want to -1 card in hand to fire wish off a turn earlier to make it less clunky. If you want to play wish so badly, play TES. That and doomsday are the only storm decks in legacy that should be running the card along with SITES (red spanish inquisition.) I've played with Timo's storm list that he won Ghent with with a slightly different protection suite namely no IoK's but instead more duress and shelved it due to how bad wish is in the deck. Running more cantrips over wish makes us more resilient to wasteland, I still find the pieces I need on time, and I don't have to weaken the manabase to include wish. As for 'needing to agree' with his conclusions, I don't have to one bit. Wish is donkey-ass in ANT. Adam Prosak just top 8'ed the invitational with 16 cantrip ANT today and had a very good run with ANT, going 7-1 or 8-0 with it in the legacy portion despite everyone expecting to face combo at the invitational today due to TES and ANT winning opens back to back in the past 2 weeks.

Burning Wish does not suck in Combo with LED and D.Rituals.
Not Playing Chrome Moxen does not mean you can not play B.Wish.
Not Playing RoF does not mean you can not play B.Wish. Even I can say that Cabal Ritual is much stronger than RoF, and if you extrapolate D.Returns in TES to Time Spiral in here, T.Spiral as Business Spell is great with 4 LAnds in play.
The problem with Straigth UB ANT builds that you do not have the Parity Wish gives: It is a +3 from Side for second and third games, It is a +1 In Dusruption, It is a +1 as 'Clunky' business, etc.
I would play the 15 Lands UB Build with 1 Preordain 2 Grim Tutor, 7 Disruption List, But I would find matches that I will loose because of a Detahrite removing my Tendrils, or Teeg lands or Thalia, etc. the percentage of loosing first and 2nd games is much greater with Straigth UB Lists.
The list with B.W. runs 8 Fetches 3 basics. No fear to Wasteland.

Pdingo
04-07-2013, 06:02 PM
@ Lemnear

Haha sry for my bad english, i mean tournament;)

yes i win the first match against

Death and Taxes
2-0 but he makes a lot mistakes^^
Lose against a BWu Delver hymn fish ? lol but that was the only big mistake in the turnier i shuffle my library and because the new sleeves the library(2cards)fall down on the hand(Lolol)and i put 3 cards and release it to late.(was the DR i needed to off, epic fail, that shit should not happen..)
g2 i dont find anything for discard hate..(confis)
Match 3 against the RUG delver(was a really good game) ok i mean i lose against to good topdecks.
play around dazes and pierce and he play them and i want that he play those to make the storm count higher and tendrils in hand win;)
g2 i discard him a FoW i think then have still a therapy, tutor, 2 CBRit and BS+ fetch and i know he have a pyroblast in hand and a snare. i play it next turn and i think i say because the mana was not enough for a tutor into AD and say blast that i can play the BS.then i discard it and topdeck a snare NR.2? ok cool can still discard them.
then he have not really a clock and i have all+Carpet of flowers and can go off he had only a card that i not know( No snare in hand i discard him the snares) but no he topdecks FoW again with no played cantrip from him in this game..
g3 Mulligan to 6 but he have to much..but a good game;)
Match 4 against a friend with elves.
g1 have a good hand with disard and cantrips but dont draw anything and i mean anything and was to slow..
g2 take mulligan to 6 and have a keepable hand with cantrips and discard again. But he play a Teeg and i dont find any shitty hate..with cantrips.
match 5 against Uwr Miracle
i think after the board its 60/40 for us. But i was a little bit pissed^^ and was now not really by the match..
G1 i win easy
G2 discard a CB but he have to much counter
G3 The same/ have to say play bad to..

shit happens..

But i can say the Deck peform very well i mean (The 3 last legacy Turnier in Switzerland i becam (First, Second/Semi Finals and yes and today only bad..^^)

So ich hoffe das waren genug Infos für dich Lemnear;)

@Burning Wish

Why i should play BW without a Chrome mox? Then your AD is bader then with Mox.
lemnear means Cabal ritual have not a lot synergie with BW because you have only bbbbb and not rr(like with rite of flame), and you have a lot the situation that you can only make tendrils for x but no kill and not ETW because you haven't the needed r in the mana pool.
Ok with BW you can search pyroclasm for hatebears in g1 but i think when you use only discard and can't discard him a hatebear in g1 and cant win you make something wrong.Sometimes you lose against hatebears in g1 but then you win g2 and 3;)
i mean today i win and my oppenent have still a thalia in play;)

Lemnear
04-07-2013, 06:58 PM
More than enough info, thanks my friend.

@Wish: the double red mana from Rite of Flame make a difference for the EtW, Shattering Spree or Grapeshot (Teeg, Thalia, Cannonist) out of the Sideboard. Cabal Ritual isn't much of a help unless you Need the mana for the taxing effect of the named hatebears. Wish can work for ANT on a pure defensive use to grab Silver bullets or fight Extraction effects but still needs 2 initial red mana sources to unlock it's full potential (either PIF->BW->Tendrils or BW->EtW/Spree/Grapeshot/etc.) which can be a pain in the ass postboard then you may need tropicals for Decays

Dark Ritual
04-07-2013, 07:39 PM
Burning Wish does not suck in Combo with LED and D.Rituals.
Not Playing Chrome Moxen does not mean you can not play B.Wish.
Not Playing RoF does not mean you can not play B.Wish. Even I can say that Cabal Ritual is much stronger than RoF, and if you extrapolate D.Returns in TES to Time Spiral in here, T.Spiral as Business Spell is great with 4 LAnds in play.
The problem with Straigth UB ANT builds that you do not have the Parity Wish gives: It is a +3 from Side for second and third games, It is a +1 In Dusruption, It is a +1 as 'Clunky' business, etc.
I would play the 15 Lands UB Build with 1 Preordain 2 Grim Tutor, 7 Disruption List, But I would find matches that I will loose because of a Detahrite removing my Tendrils, or Teeg lands or Thalia, etc. the percentage of loosing first and 2nd games is much greater with Straigth UB Lists.
The list with B.W. runs 8 Fetches 3 basics. No fear to Wasteland.

...To play wish as a setup spell it requires you to get a nonbasic, or are you advocating playing a mountain? Because I'd rather die than play a mountain in storm combo right now. If you don't use wish as a setup spell, it typically requires 11 mana to combo via wish -> grim tutor -> past in flames in order to get a guaranteed kill. Or it requires 8 mana to go wish into time spiral. The card is clunky as fuck in ANT, no chrome mox makes the card a lot worse. And if you want to play 3 chrome mox, play TES, not ANT. Sure the manabase is worse, but that's the tradeoff of wish. That and drawing chrome mox in any storm opener usually makes me cringe. Drawing 2 is the nutlow as without a brainstorm those 2 cards will slow you down considerably as 2 cards to make 1 mana is actually very fair it turns out.

Also, why should I listen to you ever? You're the guy that basically spammed the TES list for months suggesting bullshit cards like grim tutor, no gitaxian probe, and other really stupid cards to try to 'improve' the deck. My respect for you as a storm player is the lowest it could actually go right now when you keep saying all this nonsense like wish being good in ANT and grim tutor being good in TES while gitaxian probe is supposedly 'bad' in TES when gitaxian probe is probably the best card storm has gotten from new sets in years, and yes I think it's better than PiF in storm combo. There's almost no reason to not run 4 of the card in any storm list outside spanish inquisition. The card is ridiculously powerful in storm combo.

ThomasDowd
04-08-2013, 01:14 AM
do people have arguments for splits on disruption?

I currently play 4 therapy 3 duress but would like to hear counter arguments for the opposite.

also have you guys found carpet that good? i kind of hate it unless i expect a ton of RUG and even then it is meh, since they can operate off of two lands very easily.

edit: I currently treat pelikuando as a troll and ignore him. i find nothing he says constructive or worth my time, consistently begging for information and then denying it and suggesting garbage ideas which have been worked out prior.

Pelikanudo
04-08-2013, 05:03 AM
Also, why should I listen to you ever? You're the guy that basically spammed the TES list for months suggesting bullshit cards like grim tutor, no gitaxian probe, and other really stupid cards to try to 'improve' the deck. My respect for you as a storm player is the lowest it could actually go right now when you keep saying all this nonsense like wish being good in ANT and grim tutor being good in TES while gitaxian probe is supposedly 'bad' in TES when gitaxian probe is probably the best card storm has gotten from new sets in years, and yes I think it's better than PiF in storm combo. There's almost no reason to not run 4 of the card in any storm list outside spanish inquisition. The card is ridiculously powerful in storm combo.

I didn't want to say that but I'm the person who won that tournament making a 9-1 and only loosing to the boy I won in the finals.
I beat all form of Blue decks in that tournament.
I tested Grim in TES and it is bad, I just reach my own conclusions.
In my zone I'm considered the best OR unique storm player.
There is no much Top 8 listed as the small torunaments I play are not listed in mtg.
I do not intend to gain your respect or any respect, as I said at first, 'To whom may interest'.
Yes, I will take TES again and will play the Gitaxian List, that was a particular goal for me, it is more like: Gitaxian is for boys which don't understand the soul of statistics concept, but I agree that Gitaxian makes the opponent a Non Poker Player for you. So I Agree Gitaxian makes better the Storm Decks.
I also Top eitghted some tournaments with DDFT and TES. I can say for me it is more difficult to play TES than DDFT OR ANT.

Peace please, I'm in your side Storm neighbour. Even Maybe you're a programmer also...

Related to this:
edit: I currently treat pelikuando as a troll and ignore him. i find nothing he says constructive or worth my time, consistently begging for information and then denying it and suggesting garbage ideas which have been worked out prior.

I recognize my personality is a little irritating, but please stop saying things like this, I proposed the Revoke Existence/Hullbreach Slot in TES...
I consider you simply a normal person with normal thoughts, I mean, nothing to have in mind.
Again, we are in the same board...

Related to Disruption package question:
I always play 4 therapy as a Must, it is too good to not to play 4, I prefer 3 duress vs 2 duress 1 Inquistion, 2 in side have been enough for me, and Duress has much more range of action than inquistion.

lordofthepit
04-08-2013, 05:09 AM
do people have arguments for splits on disruption?

I currently play 4 therapy 3 duress but would like to hear counter arguments for the opposite.

also have you guys found carpet that good? i kind of hate it unless i expect a ton of RUG and even then it is meh, since they can operate off of two lands very easily.

edit: I currently treat pelikuando as a troll and ignore him. i find nothing he says constructive or worth my time, consistently begging for information and then denying it and suggesting garbage ideas which have been worked out prior.

I max out Cabal Therapy because I always name the right card. :cool:

SaberTooth
04-08-2013, 09:34 AM
i used to play only tnt, now im goldfishing with prozak's list -1 preordain +1 grim tutor. I like the list (idk if grim tutor is good, but it's another tutor), but i feel a little strange without the solutions that bw gives MD (things like pyroclasm or etw for example), what are your thoughts? i like the grim MD over preordain

Pdingo
04-08-2013, 11:43 AM
@ Grim Tutor

I don't Like it. Bader ad nauseam(Means 2 dmg more than a cantrip and 3 life loss when you played it) and PiF to.
In a Start Hand its a clunky card..
I mean its only a card but this cantrip make the deck more consistant.
Very rarely you don't find a tutor with 16 cantrips but then you can still find AD or PiF maybe Tendrils.

Troll Slayer
04-08-2013, 08:53 PM
@Thomas Dowd
I have not been very impressed with Carpet of Flowers. It is too easy to play around for the decks where it is best. Usually daze decks. The last time I played it it resolved twice during the tournament and activated for one mana one time.
What do you think about ignorant bliss vs. dark confidant. Does anyone ever side in ignorant bliss against non-hymn discard decks?

Nickm
04-09-2013, 01:20 AM
@Thomas Dowd
I have not been very impressed with Carpet of Flowers. It is too easy to play around for the decks where it is best. Usually daze decks. The last time I played it it resolved twice during the tournament and activated for one mana one time.
What do you think about ignorant bliss vs. dark confidant. Does anyone ever side in ignorant bliss against non-hymn discard decks?

I run carpet in my sideboard flex spots when I expect allot of RUG, and it has always been good for me.

I haven't tested Ignorant Bliss but it seems terrible. On the draw it stops neither Hymn or cc1 discard, it also forces you to fetch out a red dual early which is not something I want to do against a wasteland deck like JUND. If Hymn is that big in your meta I feel like you better off running Divert, which I did test and was underwhelming.

nodahero
04-09-2013, 01:49 AM
On the question of ignorant bliss, is it worth playing without a way to tutor for it? As a two of I doubt we will have it in hand when we want it.

Lemnear
04-09-2013, 05:01 AM
On the question of ignorant bliss, is it worth playing without a way to tutor for it? As a two of I doubt we will have it in hand when we want it.

Why would you waste a tutor-effect for ignorant bliss over something that really matters? Would you keep a Bliss in your ponder paired with crap or shuffle to draw something like Infernal or LED?

Pdingo
04-09-2013, 05:16 AM
@ Ignorant Bliss

I like it, i switch them with confis all the time. For the GP Strassburg i use 2 bliss+other hate for 4 confis.
I mean when the oppenent play a Hymn or a Thoughtseize etc. the discard goes into nothing and with confi can he discard still a good card and the BoBs can be handle with removal.
Sometimes you don't draw that what you needed with the BoB...
I prefer Bliss.

Lemnear
04-09-2013, 05:56 AM
@ Ignorant Bliss

I like it, i switch them with confis all the time. For the GP Strassburg i use 2 bliss+other hate for 4 confis.
I mean when the oppenent play a Hymn or a Thoughtseize etc. the discard goes into nothing and with confi can he discard still a good card and the BoBs can be handle with removal.
Sometimes you don't draw that what you needed with the BoB...
I prefer Bliss.

How does Bliss help you drawing "what you need"? How does it help you against Thoughtseize Turn 1/2 unless you are willing to waste a Petal.

The only cards you mind being discarded is Infernal Tutor.

jin
04-09-2013, 06:43 AM
How does Bliss help you drawing "what you need"? How does it help you against Thoughtseize Turn 1/2 unless you are willing to waste a Petal.

The only cards you mind being discarded is Infernal Tutor.

The purpose of Ignorant Bliss is not to 'shut down' discard, but to compliment Brainstorm in protecting your important spells. If by chance you are forced to use your BS early to protect from discard, and they draw more discard, Ignorant Bliss provides this support.

If you you are holding both BS and Bliss in your hand during a discard spell, you may opt to use Bliss over BS to conserve it for the combo turn. Virtually, Bliss adds 2 more cards to your deck that can play around discard spells. That's all...

Lemnear
04-09-2013, 06:59 AM
The purpose of Ignorant Bliss is not to 'shut down' discard, but to compliment Brainstorm in protecting your important spells. If by chance you are forced to use your BS early to protect from discard, and they draw more discard, Ignorant Bliss provides this support.

If you you are holding both BS and Bliss in your hand during a discard spell, you may opt to use Bliss over BS to conserve it for the combo turn. Virtually, Bliss adds 2 more cards to your deck that can play around discard spells. That's all...

That are your important spells aside IT? LED's you play out anyways or the redundant cantrips or Rituals?

Don't I always read in this thread that ANT is "resistant to discard" anyways? /sarcasm

jin
04-09-2013, 08:02 AM
That are your important spells aside IT? LED's you play out anyways or the redundant cantrips or Rituals?

Don't I always read in this thread that ANT is "resistant to discard" anyways? /sarcasm

I don't understand your question. Your important spells depend on the hand you're shaping. Storm players should know this.

If you are short on mana, then that's the important spell. If you are protecting a storm engine, then that is your spell. If you are protecting the win con, then that is your spell. The point is, it depends on the hand you are shaping, but because the goal of hand disruption is to disrupt your best cards or to attack your card advantage, spells like Ignorant Bliss and Brainstorm can help to mitigate those effects.

Resistant to discard =/= discard proof.. I think you are over generalizing a bit.

Pdingo
04-09-2013, 08:19 AM
@Lemnear

I can only agree with Jin.

What do you prefer my friend?;)

Lemnear
04-09-2013, 08:45 AM
I don't think fetching a red dual just for Bliss is wise. Neither would be burning a Petal for it. In most cases the Turn 1 Thoughtseize/IoK can't be dodged anyways. To be in-time you either need to fetch a Volcanic for Bliss very soon or have to burn a Petal. Neither option is really good for ANT. Confidant would do much more for you in the long and grindy games vs. BG. Bliss can be a blessing if you dodge a single Hymn but Bob will win vs. a flurry of discard-Spells over several turns while dealing damage.

If preventing your spells from discard is your goal, your own discard can be used for that purpose without the need to generate the ugly 1R. I don't think the rare situations where Bliss shines are worth the SB slot

jin
04-09-2013, 09:04 AM
@Lemnear

I can only agree with Jin.

What do you prefer my friend?;)

Right now I'm on the Ignorant Bliss plan, and it has been serving me well. I'm a type of player who prefers to have the SB compliment my main deck components rather than have a transformational SB. Therefore, my SB is an extension of my MB. The Ignorant Bliss acts as BS 5-6 VS discard decks. I play that rather than playing Dark Confidants; although some may argue that Bob serves as Ad Nauseam 2-5. I think they are both valid plans, but in order to save SB space, I'm playing the Bliss right now. It seems ok so far.

Dark Confidant used to be strong when it was a new tech, but now with the prevalence of burns and the unsurprising creature for ANT post board, it has really gone down in effectiveness. I rather board in less things and maintain my efficiency as a storm deck than to clutter the post board game with a creature that doesn't help much in generating storm vs discard, immediately.

That said, I feel that Dark Confidant in the SB keeps BWx decks honest post board. Do they keep in Sword to Plowshares? Do they take them out? It's a mystery.

Danserious
04-09-2013, 11:45 AM
Corner case scenario with ignorant bliss is that you could cast infernal tutor, respond with bliss and be hellbent. Still seems like a clunker to me.

AEnesidem
04-09-2013, 02:56 PM
To whom mnay interest:

I think this is the most optimal list:

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=10493

As said, Timo is ritgh about strategies on how to side, Base and Side,

You all just need to agree with his conclusions.

The other list, Grim Tutor and No B.Wish is the other ANT build which is also another good approach.

I just wanted to say I tested that Timo List and as Timo said, is simply broken.

Options:
0/1 Moxen instead 14/15 Lands.
No other changes should be made to the List.

A point, Therapy is in conjuntion with LED and I.T. is one of the bests cards in the deck.

Quite funny you say that, cause i heard that Timo has dropped the Burning wish plan already.

lordofthepit
04-10-2013, 02:50 AM
For those of you who run Grim Tutor, how many copies do you run?

I'm considering acquiring one copy right now, but I don't really want to do that unless it enables me to play a more optimal version of ANT (I feel like Prosak's build is a bit lacking for gas). I know Timo Schunemann's list from GP Amsterdam had a copy in the sideboard, but it sounds like it's fallen out of favor.

SaberTooth
04-10-2013, 08:09 AM
Quite funny you say that, cause i heard that Timo has dropped the Burning wish plan already.

ye? where? i'll like to read this things, i mean, he won a gp and split finals in ovino with the same list soo

Asthereal
04-10-2013, 08:55 AM
Wait, is someone seriously considering Ignorant Bliss in ANT?
I'd even sooner consider Divert or something. That at least costs just U.
Ignorant Bliss is just terrible in my opinion.

Pdingo
04-10-2013, 09:51 AM
Yes i prefer Bliss, why i should use a bad counter who makes nothing?

JJ-JKidd
04-10-2013, 09:37 PM
Quite funny you say that, cause i heard that Timo has dropped the Burning wish plan already.

Never gonna drop Burning Wish. Had a game, we both in topdeck mode, and opponent had 2 creatures in play. I topdeck BWish, cast for Dim Ret., and proceeded to win.

This is in addition to BWish into IGG wins, Grapeshot for lethal around a Teeg, Pyroclasm against 2 hatebears, wishing for a discard spell, among others.

Lemnear
04-11-2013, 02:46 AM
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=141223&d=1365653080

Like that one for the discard.decs?

Asthereal
04-11-2013, 03:20 AM
That's like a Dark Confidant that only works when you're in deep shit.
I'd like my Confi to also work when I'm in shallow shit.

I'm not saying 'play Divert'. I'm saying Divert is less bad than the other crap.
I don't see why we would side bad cards to hate discard in the first place.
I feel Past in Flames is enough to beat discard decks usually.
You can side an additional one in, or Wish for a second, if you're on the Wish plan.
If they draw a God hand and discard AND exile important stuff, then you're losing anyway.

Dia_Bot
04-11-2013, 05:03 AM
Ignorant bliss isn't bad since it replaces itself and protect you from any number of discard spells for a turn but in my taste it is just to narrow to deserve a SB slot.
We don't really care about discard unless it is combined with permission or permanent based hate, and in that case we are better off using our SB slots to attend to that problem.

@ The new confidant: It sucks since it does nothing if you have a card in your hand already. In any case you are better off with Dark confidant in AnT.
It combines nicely with liliana though.

Mindlash
04-11-2013, 02:48 PM
ye? where? i'll like to read this things, i mean, he won a gp and split finals in ovino with the same list soo

I know him personally and can assure you he is not playing Burning Wishes in his ANT deck right now. He also stated it in his blog I think.

MTG Junkie
04-11-2013, 07:02 PM
I know him personally and can assure you he is not playing Burning Wishes in his ANT deck right now. He also stated it in his blog I think.

How would one access this blog? I'm far far from knowing him or anything but from reading his report on E.C .it seemed like he would never even think about other variants.

phazonmutant
04-12-2013, 02:10 AM
How would one access this blog? I'm far far from knowing him or anything but from reading his report on E.C .it seemed like he would never even think about other variants.

That report is ancient by now! It was from pre-Decay storm! I know this is a controversial opinion on the ANT thread (and is just my opinion), but I think ANT stopped being on par with TES once Abrupt Decay got printed.

At that point ANT's advantage of a "stable manabase" stopped existing because it had to splash both R and G (in addition to losing out on powerful tools like Silence). Counterbalance has seen an uptick and AD is much easier to cast than Wipe Away, so it's pretty hard justifying not playing Decay considering the benefits it has in the Chalice and hatebear matchups, but at the same time it has a pretty real cost.

Keeping the fetch-dual manabase with AD warps the deck to either be extremely durdly (16 cantrips and board Trop) or very all-in with a deck that's not designed to be all-in (TNT).

I really don't have anything more than a gut feel from playtesting for why this is true, but I still believe that it is.

AEnesidem
04-12-2013, 04:56 AM
ye? where? i'll like to read this things, i mean, he won a gp and split finals in ovino with the same list soo

A friend of mine speaks with him quite often and friends of him come to Belgium to play legacy in our LGS sometimes and we spoke about it. I am currently looking to start with ANT and asked questions about which version to play and what they thought about burning wish. That's when they told me he wasn't playing tem ATM.

Mindlash
04-12-2013, 05:52 AM
How would one access this blog? I'm far far from knowing him or anything but from reading his report on E.C .it seemed like he would never even think about other variants.

The blog can be found here:
http://www.mtg-forum.de/blog/98-the-good-the-bad-and-the-wicked/
It is on a german magic forum and written in german though. He does not write a lot lately and roughly a third is about magic when he does. Reading the blog requires registration.

If I remember correctly he tested ANT with Snapcaster Mages at the time of GP Bochum and finally settled with an adjusted maindeck of Prosaks cantrip version.
Burning Wish was seen as a nessessary evil in the GP Ghent list. It can create some arkward situations. You need either another tutor to grab an engine with it or enough mana to go with Grim Tutor to get your engine and puts a strain on your manabase by needing more red mana in the combo turn. It also eats up a good chunk of your sideboard.

Some problems with BW or Grim main are also described here by Prosak:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/25829-Legacy-Storm-Primer.html

I played the GP Ghent deck alot and liked it. I miss the ability to interact with cards like Teeg in G1 or put some goblins on the table T1 in the newest list.
On the other hand the new list plays alot smoother now without Burning Wishes and G1 Teeg is not encountered very often these days.
People often say it is alot slower then the BW version, but most of the fast kills were enabled by Infernal Tutor anyways.
Manabase feels stable and you get a real sideboard now.

Current list as of march the 25th looks like this:

Deck: Ad Nauseam Tendrils (http://deckstats.net/deck-2186208-d14fdab835296560230170f9bb0f673a-de.html) http://deckstats.net/mana/m/u.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/b.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/r.gif

//Main
4 Polluted Delta (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Polluted+Delta)
4 Scalding Tarn (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Scalding+Tarn)
2 Underground Sea (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Underground+Sea)
1 Volcanic Island (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Volcanic+Island)
2 Island (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Island)
1 Swamp (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Swamp)
4 Brainstorm (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Brainstorm)
4 Ponder (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Ponder)
4 Preordain (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Preordain)
4 Gitaxian Probe (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Gitaxian+Probe)
4 Cabal Therapy (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Cabal+Therapy)
3 Duress (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Duress)
4 Dark Ritual (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Dark+Ritual)
4 Cabal Ritual (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Cabal+Ritual)
4 Lotus Petal (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Lotus+Petal)
4 Lion's Eye Diamond (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Lion%27s+Eye+Diamond)
4 Infernal Tutor (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Infernal+Tutor)
1 Ad Nauseam (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Ad+Nauseam)
1 Past in Flames (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Past+in+Flames)
1 Tendrils of Agony (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Tendrils+of+Agony)

//Sideboard
3 Carpet of Flowers (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Carpet+of+Flowers)
3 Abrupt Decay (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Abrupt+Decay)
2 Chain of Vapor (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Chain+of+Vapor)
1 Duress (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Duress)
1 Tropical Island (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Tropical+Island)

http://i.hbtronix.de/chart_pie.png Deckstatistik anzeigen (http://deckstats.net/deck-2186208-d14fdab835296560230170f9bb0f673a.html)

Leaving us with 5 open slots in the sideboard which are currently filled with the following:

Deck: Ad Nauseam Tendrils SB Flexslots (http://deckstats.net/deck-2186228-516480cc967bed1693f6907df9d7d9f8-de.html) http://deckstats.net/mana/m/b.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/g.gif

//Sideboard
3 Grafdigger's Cage (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Grafdigger%27s+Cage) (against TinFins)
1 Ill-Gotten Gains (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Ill-Gotten+Gains)
1 Carpet of Flowers (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Carpet+of+Flowers)

http://i.hbtronix.de/chart_pie.png Deckstatistik anzeigen (http://deckstats.net/deck-2186228-516480cc967bed1693f6907df9d7d9f8.html)

Greetings Chris

Edit: Got rid of sacks :-)

Zombie
04-12-2013, 09:02 AM
It's Prosak, not a professional sack.

Prosak:
http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/events/gpla09/FM7_Prosak.jpg

A sack:
http://www.photo-dictionary.com/photofiles/list/5466/8698sack.jpg

phazonmutant
04-12-2013, 02:15 PM
Anyone know if the numbers Nihil Credo uses make any differentiation between ANT and TES? That's the only way his DTB numbers make sense

Edit: dug into the tcdecks numbers. Basically I was forgetting about Europe :rolleyes:

nodahero
04-12-2013, 10:45 PM
Two questions... Which is better going into something like an SCG Open? Prosak's ANT list or Bryants TES? I feel fairly comfortable with both but I barely ever play legacy anymore so I have no clue which is a better choice?

Also can anyone explain to me how to board for Prosak's list? I am not sure what to cut for the Carpet's and the Decays. Also I assume when you bring in the Trop you are cutting a non-land. can anyone confirm this?

phazonmutant
04-12-2013, 11:53 PM
Two questions... Which is better going into something like an SCG Open? Prosak's ANT list or Bryants TES? I feel fairly comfortable with both but I barely ever play legacy anymore so I have no clue which is a better choice?

Also can anyone explain to me how to board for Prosak's list? I am not sure what to cut for the Carpet's and the Decays. Also I assume when you bring in the Trop you are cutting a non-land. can anyone confirm this?

At this point, strictly speaking the data supports ANT (although it's not by much for US tournaments). Obviously I and other people on the TES thread think that deck is superior, but there's basically no way to convince people apart from encouraging them to play the deck in tournaments (after getting comfortable with it - it's not as intuitive as ANT). I feel like if you have a good handle on TES then there shouldn't be a question, otherwise you should play ANT.

jin
04-13-2013, 01:29 AM
Two questions... Which is better going into something like an SCG Open? Prosak's ANT list or Bryants TES? I feel fairly comfortable with both but I barely ever play legacy anymore so I have no clue which is a better choice?

Also can anyone explain to me how to board for Prosak's list? I am not sure what to cut for the Carpet's and the Decays. Also I assume when you bring in the Trop you are cutting a non-land. can anyone confirm this?

Cabal Ritual comes out for Carpet of Flowers versus Blue Decks. They are both rituals, except Carpet has no graveyard weakness and are almost always online against blue decks. Tropical Island comes in for a Fetchland. Abrupt Decay comes in for 2x Preordain, a Cabal Ritual. If you play 4x Decays, then you may shave a discard spell, but I generally find 3x Decay are enough.

Zombie
04-13-2013, 04:51 AM
At this point, strictly speaking the data supports ANT (although it's not by much for US tournaments). Obviously I and other people on the TES thread think that deck is superior, but there's basically no way to convince people apart from encouraging them to play the deck in tournaments (after getting comfortable with it - it's not as intuitive as ANT). I feel like if you have a good handle on TES then there shouldn't be a question, otherwise you should play ANT.

Player mentality matters a bit, too. Even if you're technically proficient, TES is more oriented for aggressive, somewhat gambly early game plays and has a bit worse long game. ANT is a more everything is guaranteed and (relatively speaking) slow and steady kind of affair, play feel wise. In as diverse and tricky a format as Legacy, being comfortable with your deck is key.

Though if you play Prosak ANT, for goodness' sake don't run that Massacre in the board. Being dead to Teeg is not very funny.

Pdingo
04-13-2013, 05:50 PM
Today ANT is on day 2 in th GP Grand Prix ;)
(make 7-2 without byes;)) The list fallow soon..

@ zombie
the first thing dont say prosak ANT, its not his deck and he's not the only player that say 4/4/4/4 is right thing.

@.i think.massacre is.pretty. maybe a.change slot.

Mindlash
04-13-2013, 08:19 PM
Today ANT is on day 2 in th GP Grand Prix ;)
(make 7-2 without byes;)) The list fallow soon..

@ zombie
the first thing dont say prosak ANT, its not his deck and he's not the only player that say 4/4/4/4 is right thing.

@.i think.massacre is.pretty. maybe a.change slot.

If someone speaks of Prosaks ANT I just see Gemstone Mines and not the 4/4/4/4 thingy :-P But I tend to see the bad things first :D

Edit: Massacre is just not needed in his board. Decay, Karakas, Vapor handle most of the Hatebears and Massacre seems to be for Thalia and such....and in that case a single DoN seems better.

Pdingo
04-14-2013, 02:49 PM
On my first GP ( Strassburg)
89 place from 1663 people with ANT without byes.
i'm very happy with this results.

My List fallows...

Patrunkenphat7
04-15-2013, 07:51 AM
Has anyone ever tried a couple Thought Scour over a couple of the Preordain? I find that I am often waiting a turn to go off because I don't have Threshold, and that is usually just as important if not more important than the dig that the Preordain scry gives me. A common use for my Preordains is a "shuffle" for Brainstorms, and Thought Scour does this as well. Just curious if anyone has tried it...

Lemnear
04-15-2013, 08:05 AM
On my first GP ( Strassburg)
89 place from 1663 people with ANT without byes.
i'm very happy with this results.

My List fallows...

Congrats!

Pdingo
04-15-2013, 11:36 AM
Thanks men.

Here is my List:

1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Preordain
4 Duress
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Ad Nauseam
2 Misty Rainforest
SB: 1 Bayou
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 2 Ignorant Bliss
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Slaughter Pact

The only thing i would change is the Pact.
The List Perform very well!

Dark Ritual
04-15-2013, 08:12 PM
Thanks men.

Here is my List:

1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Preordain
4 Duress
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Ad Nauseam
2 Misty Rainforest
SB: 1 Bayou
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 2 Ignorant Bliss
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Slaughter Pact

The only thing i would change is the Pact.
The List Perform very well!

For a moment I thought you ran just 13 lands. Sickest mind trick ever, putting 2 misty rainforest at the bottom of the decklist. Also of note, how relevant is having the bayou as green source number 2 in the sideboard? I'm guessing you ran the badlands because you had ignorant bliss in the sideboard. As for massacre, did it ever get screwed over by teeg? Slaughter pact is an easy switch to chain of vapor or echoing truth at least to me. Leyline of sanctity is seeing more play and just 2 CoV's as answers to leyline is pretty loose since you have to rely on ad nauseam more to find the CoV's for you to answer leyline(s). Either way, congratulations on the finish.

No one has tried thought scour to my knowledge. It seems neat for enabling threshold and randomly milling PiF or making PiF better by milling rituals but I'm hesitant to try it because every time it mills infernal tutor or some other good cards I'm going to cringe. Usually cabal ritual is threshed at least for me, unless it's turn 2 or something. I even manage to get it threshed through double deathrite shaman generally.

Pdingo
04-16-2013, 04:37 AM
@ Massacre
I never get owned by Teeg(Massacre is not the only removal). I think Massacre is good to, for win time against fast decks like Elves.

@ Bayou

First, I don't like Gemstone Mine at all. Because it get wasted so easy..
Ok bayou too, but i prefer more Fetchies, they make Treshhold too and can't be wasted+ search your basic+ better Brainstorms.
And i like this art of green split very well. All the Time you can fetch what you need and make Treshhold.

@ Slaughter Pact

yeah i will cut the Pact for a one off Dread of Night or something like that.

@ Chain of Vapor
Chain was pretty good and safed my games.
But a Game on day 2 was against Show and Know.
It was 1:1 and he was on the play on g3. I know that he is playing Leyline of sanctity.
I boarded in 2 Chain of Vapors. Then he begin with double Leyline and Volcanic, GO!
I have a Perfect first Turn kill Hand with Ad Nauseam and enough Mana free for cast more ritual etc..
I have to go for it, no FoW and make a lot mana + again with PiF to. Don't find a Chain. Have to search with tutor and bounce him the first Leyline.
then the second i cant bounce him it, because he play a REB in my Face -.-
Game...not enough Mana to Flashback Chain + search Tendrils..But was a good Game.

@ Ignorrant Bliss

It saved my 2 Games against Jund;)

Zombie
04-16-2013, 08:46 AM
@ Massacre
I never get owned by Teeg(Massacre is not the only removal). I think Massacre is good to, for win time against fast decks like Elves.

Massacre is crap against Elves. Costs a ton because they probably don't have a Plains out, and is dead vs. Teeg. Would rather play Infest, I think.

Pdingo
04-16-2013, 09:05 AM
I don't think that it is crap, i see alot they fetch into bayou,then into Savannah(I mean they don't know that the ANT player plays a Massacre) but i would board it in. It can hit them.;)
When it hits its take a lot speed.
And why i should play Infest? 3 mana? that's crap in my option.

MD.Ghost
04-16-2013, 10:02 AM
I don't think that it is crap, i see alot they fetch into bayou,then into Savannah(I mean they don't know that the ANT player plays a Massacre) but i would board it in. It can hit them.;)
When it hits its take a lot speed.
And why i should play Infest? 3 mana? that's crap in my option.

Without Gaddock Teeg in Hand (and no Birchlore Ranger or Deathrite in Play) there is no reason to fetch for savannah for elves. So massacre is dead vs an good opponent and/or teeg. If an elf-player fears massacre he can also bounce savannah via quirion ranger in his turn (your upkeep etc.). I fought against 3 storm combo decks (2x ant, 1x spanish inquisition) at gp strasbourg and never lost with elves.

Pyroclasm is - in my opinion -the best way (besides cost, but hey - only two mana) to fight hatebears/swarms without mother of runes/counter protection.

Pdingo
04-16-2013, 10:08 AM
Agree

yeah Pyroclasm is probably the best Option for slow down elves. But the important thing is: Keep Fast hands against elves. Then you don't need that.

dune2k
04-16-2013, 03:03 PM
Without Gaddock Teeg in Hand (and no Birchlore Ranger or Deathrite in Play) there is no reason to fetch for savannah for elves. So massacre is dead vs an good opponent and/or teeg. If an elf-player fears massacre he can also bounce savannah via quirion ranger in his turn (your upkeep etc.). I fought against 3 storm combo decks (2x ant, 1x spanish inquisition) at gp strasbourg and never lost with elves.

Pyroclasm is - in my opinion -the best way (besides cost, but hey - only two mana) to fight hatebears/swarms without mother of runes/counter protection.

Totally agree. Infest is just too expensive, I'm back to Pyroclasm myself (playing a version w/ B. Wish).

SaberTooth
04-17-2013, 07:58 AM
idk i mean teeg/thalia + mother is gg with pyroclasm, infest at least kills all this. im currently testing prosak list -1 preordain+1 grim tutor (without burning wish) and im afraid of not having answers g1 agains that kind of play

DarkJester
04-17-2013, 11:26 AM
idk i mean teeg/thalia + mother is gg with pyroclasm, infest at least kills all this. im currently testing prosak list -1 preordain+1 grim tutor (without burning wish) and im afraid of not having answers g1 agains that kind of play

Most of the time I am playing the BW-Lists, but that Prosak-list seems interesting to me at the moment (currently testing with -2 Preordain, +1 Grim +1 Therapy and the Trop main instead of 1 Island to increase SB-Space). Yeah, when you had the luxury before to BW for an out to a mother/hatebear-lock it seems like a step back to play straight UB (with a tiny PiF-Splash). But after boarding you have Decays and/or CoV to solve this kind of problem, which should usually be enough (I play a 3/2-split at the moment). So, show your ballz and just win G2+3 :cool:. Sadly ANT often doesn't have the raw speed to win before Thalia/Teeg appears (like TES for example).

If Hatebears/Mother-locks are common in your meta, play Dread of Nights, but this would eat at least 3 SB-Slots.

Patrunkenphat7
04-18-2013, 10:07 PM
Xantid Swarms seem necessary right now against Show and Tell. It's the best way to fight Leyline of Sanctity without boarding in too many dead bounce spells (and it's good against them even without Leyline in play).

phazonmutant
04-19-2013, 11:48 AM
Xantid Swarms seem necessary right now against Show and Tell. It's the best way to fight Leyline of Sanctity without boarding in too many dead bounce spells (and it's good against them even without Leyline in play).

Yeah it seems difficult to beat a deck with a bunch of counterspells and Leyline without any sort of Silence effects. Swarm is a pretty bad topdeck though if you're trying to find protection to go off right now.


Totally agree. Infest is just too expensive, I'm back to Pyroclasm myself (playing a version w/ B. Wish).

Isn't RR pretty hard to produce in ANT? Most of the time you're going to be shipping the turn anyway unless you have a Petal in play that you can burn. Pyroclasm is a fine option, but I'm just dubious that 2RR is realistic in one turn. And then if you do have to ship turn, not being able to Dark Ritual out Pyroclasm could potentially be an issue with Thalia in play.

Another option to consider if you think Clasm is a realistic option: Grapeshot. TES uses it as a split card Pyroclasm // mini Storm when we've beat down with Empty for 10 or so. It works well at both jobs.


idk i mean teeg/thalia + mother is gg with pyroclasm, infest at least kills all this. im currently testing prosak list -1 preordain+1 grim tutor (without burning wish) and im afraid of not having answers g1 agains that kind of play

When I played ANT, I always played a Virtue's Ruin in the board. Why has that fallen out of favor? The only hatebears you're worried about are white (possibly in addition to green). I know I've lost to a Canonist suited up with a Sword of Light and Shadow with a Infest in hand, and I've also lost to a Knight of the Reliquary swinging for lots with Infest in hand.

Jeff
04-20-2013, 12:53 AM
Xantid Swarms seem necessary right now against Show and Tell. It's the best way to fight Leyline of Sanctity without boarding in too many dead bounce spells (and it's good against them even without Leyline in play).

Pardon the n00b question, but I'm just getting into ANT and I'm trying to figure out how to sideboard and this matchup in particular is seeming difficult for me. What are you boarding out in order to bring in some quantity of bounce spells AND xantid swarms? Are you just giving up on discard and trying to be faster than them? Or are you trimming Preordains?

In my limited sideboarding I have been having real trouble figuring out what can get cut when you need to bring in more than like 3 cards.

Dark Ritual
04-20-2013, 01:12 AM
Greatly prefer virtue's ruin to infest in general. The cost is easier at 2B vs. 1BB and it kills KotR as well, because kotr fetching bojuka bog at instant speed is basically FoW against us. But right now I don't run virtue's ruin because maverick isn't common enough in my area and without maverick in the meta the card is quite useless in comparison to other options.

Going to try a different sideboard tomorrow with swarms, it will likely be -2 thoughtseize -1 chain of vapor +3 xantid swarm. Top floating FoW is a concern as well as the leyline and show and tell issue (it might be just me but I always get turn 2 griselbrand against me via SnT and I fucking hate that card landing against me so much.) Show and tell has been picking up in popularity and losing to that deck makes me want to die when they think they're so clever with their very easy to assemble combo of fatty + enabler.

Also, lose to elves combo? With ANT? The ANT pilot is either bricking off quite hard or is incompetent. Elves is slower and we can pick them apart with hand disruption. Pyroclasm is a giant crutch against them that we don't really need. Duress takes GSZ, glimpse, and NO preboard. Therapy is great if you know how to use it against them. Postboard bounce and abrupt decay is enough. The only remotely hard thing game 1 is an active DRS and even that can be played around because they shouldn't combo off through your discard on them or you can tutor chain them out or have enough mana to go tutor -> tutor -> PiF -> win. The only shot they have is a discard heavy board in games 2 and 3 and potentially mindbreak trap and other such hate that can be played around or through via proper cantripping and not keeping loose hands.

dune2k
04-20-2013, 11:14 AM
Isn't RR pretty hard to produce in ANT? Most of the time you're going to be shipping the turn anyway unless you have a Petal in play that you can burn. Pyroclasm is a fine option, but I'm just dubious that 2RR is realistic in one turn. And then if you do have to ship turn, not being able to Dark Ritual out Pyroclasm could potentially be an issue with Thalia in play.

RR is "ok" to produce. With a Thalia in play shipping the turn usually is the only way to cast the clasm or even infest, since your normally don't have enough mana that turn anyway.
Mom def. is a problem when running clasm, but when you are sure to encounter a lot of maverick you'd need to tune your deck differently anyways (DoN, maybe slaughter pact to board in etc). It's - at least in my deck - only there to have an out to the random maverick players you sometimes encounter or to wipe the board to survive another turn (it happens, but shouldn't be the case).

Brainstormer
04-24-2013, 12:08 AM
I'm a long time player of Esper Stoneblade, RUG, and Elves. I just traded my divining tops and a moat for LEDs, Infernal Tutors, and some other stuff. Just put the deck together today.

I tested earlier against RUG and Elves, and enjoy the deck immensely.

I just had a couple questions for experienced ANT players:

1) What are the benefits to ANT over TES? My thought is that it is easier to go off. By easier, I mean it appears to be a much less complex decision tree, and I personally like that, especially for long tournaments. So to that end, ANT would appear both easier and a bit more consistent, but less explosive. Is that about right?

2) How do I sideboard? Given that you rarely seem to produce redundant mana, spell pierce, daze, and the like are REALLY annoying. I know this must be the reason for Carpet of Flowers. I just didn't know what to board out.

So to be more specific, what are the typical cards that get boarded out? Also, Abrupt Decay - I imagine the real problem cards this hits are Thalia, Teeg, Chalice of the Void, and Counter balance. There is a fair amount of MUD where I play so it seems good against trinisphere too. When else does it come in?

Thanks in advance!

phazonmutant
04-24-2013, 12:36 AM
I'm a long time player of Esper Stoneblade, RUG, and Elves. I just traded my divining tops and a moat for LEDs, Infernal Tutors, and some other stuff. Just put the deck together today.

I tested earlier against RUG and Elves, and enjoy the deck immensely.

I just had a couple questions for experienced ANT players:

1) What are the benefits to ANT over TES? My thought is that it is easier to go off. By easier, I mean it appears to be a much less complex decision tree, and I personally like that, especially for long tournaments. So to that end, ANT would appear both easier and a bit more consistent, but less explosive. Is that about right?

2) How do I sideboard? Given that you rarely seem to produce redundant mana, spell pierce, daze, and the like are REALLY annoying. I know this must be the reason for Carpet of Flowers. I just didn't know what to board out.

So to be more specific, what are the typical cards that get boarded out? Also, Abrupt Decay - I imagine the real problem cards this hits are Thalia, Teeg, Chalice of the Void, and Counter balance. There is a fair amount of MUD where I play so it seems good against trinisphere too. When else does it come in?

Thanks in advance!

Congrats on taking the plunge! I've found storm much more rewarding than Stoneblade, hopefully you will too.

1) You're correct. ANT is easier because it's overall more linear on Past in Flames and isn't smooshing all the decisions into the mulligan and turns 1-2. People completely new to storm regularly do well with ANT. More cantrips help recover from small mistakes, you don't have Burning Wish opening up more lines to consider (in most builds nowadays), and you don't have to worry about colors really. That being said, no storm combo is exactly easy. As far as consistency, that's debated, but TES players feel that the consistency issue is overemphasized by ANT players. I know personally that I mulligan at about the same rate with both decks (not much). ANT is certainly less explosive. It's capable of turn 1-2 kills, but t3 is more likely.

2) I'm not honestly sure, but the reasoning I heard for Carpet was to reduce graveyard dependence, so some Cabal Rituals go. I think if ANT is good, it's because Cabal Ritual is a +3 and you can expect to have 3+ lands in play so redundant mana shouldn't honestly be a huge concern. But, taxing counters are one of the main reasons people on this board have talked about splashing W for Silence.
Uhhh, Abrupt Decay comes in when there are hate permanents? It seems like you figured it out...

Brainstormer
04-24-2013, 12:45 AM
Thanks! A lot of useful info.

So I have a sense of what to board in and why, but boarding cards out is my big issue! I'm not sure what the most expendable stuff is. Hopefully I can figure it out in time, once I have a better feel for the deck.

Mon,Goblin Chief
04-24-2013, 05:23 AM
I'm a long time player of Esper Stoneblade, RUG, and Elves. I just traded my divining tops and a moat for LEDs, Infernal Tutors, and some other stuff. Just put the deck together today.

I tested earlier against RUG and Elves, and enjoy the deck immensely.

I just had a couple questions for experienced ANT players:

1) What are the benefits to ANT over TES? My thought is that it is easier to go off. By easier, I mean it appears to be a much less complex decision tree, and I personally like that, especially for long tournaments. So to that end, ANT would appear both easier and a bit more consistent, but less explosive. Is that about right?

2) How do I sideboard? Given that you rarely seem to produce redundant mana, spell pierce, daze, and the like are REALLY annoying. I know this must be the reason for Carpet of Flowers. I just didn't know what to board out.

So to be more specific, what are the typical cards that get boarded out? Also, Abrupt Decay - I imagine the real problem cards this hits are Thalia, Teeg, Chalice of the Void, and Counter balance. There is a fair amount of MUD where I play so it seems good against trinisphere too. When else does it come in?

Thanks in advance!

Welcome to the dark side. ;)

ANT vs TES: Admittedly having played a lot less TES than ANT, I find the complexity of both decks reasonably close. Figuring out the extra-angles Burning Wish allows you to take shouldn't really take much effort once your comfortable playing storm. The real thing that makes playing Storm difficult is how much planning you have to do to figure out lines that play around what the opponent could have and those remain the same for both decks.

As for the trade-offs, this is what I had in the pre-Strasbourg article and I still think it remains essentially true:

TES is able to profit more easily from early game openings. The maindeck Empty the Warrens, higher business count, and stronger Ad Nauseams (due to lower converted mana costs and Chrome Moxes) allow the deck to win faster than ANT usually does. Silence is also a much better card to protect yourself while going off than anything ANT can support because it punishes soft counters incredibly well.
What TES gains in speed, ANT regains in resilience. A more resilient mana base (basics, no Chrome Moxes, City of Brasses, or Gemstone Mines), more fetchlands to interact with your cantrips, and more cantrips in general as well as a game plan much more suited to rely on Past in Flames as compared to TES give ANT a much stronger turn 3+ game plan than TES.


As for sideboarding, you usually either switch protection packages (discard for permanent hate) or have to shave a few slots to make room. Things I generally consider for shaving: Probe, Preordain, Lotus Petal, Cabal Ritual, a minor amount of discard, the Grim Tutor. Also consider shaving a land in the fast combo mirror. Against no-discard tempo-decks, Ad Nauseam gets boarded out for Empty the Warrens in my list.

JJ-JKidd
04-25-2013, 12:42 AM
I'm a long time player of Esper Stoneblade, RUG, and Elves. I just traded my divining tops and a moat for LEDs, Infernal Tutors, and some other stuff. Just put the deck together today.

I tested earlier against RUG and Elves, and enjoy the deck immensely.

I just had a couple questions for experienced ANT players:

1) What are the benefits to ANT over TES? My thought is that it is easier to go off. By easier, I mean it appears to be a much less complex decision tree, and I personally like that, especially for long tournaments. So to that end, ANT would appear both easier and a bit more consistent, but less explosive. Is that about right?

2) How do I sideboard? Given that you rarely seem to produce redundant mana, spell pierce, daze, and the like are REALLY annoying. I know this must be the reason for Carpet of Flowers. I just didn't know what to board out.

So to be more specific, what are the typical cards that get boarded out? Also, Abrupt Decay - I imagine the real problem cards this hits are Thalia, Teeg, Chalice of the Void, and Counter balance. There is a fair amount of MUD where I play so it seems good against trinisphere too. When else does it come in?

Thanks in advance!

Welcome to the club! One thing thats best about this deck be it UBr or TES is that you only have one goal: EXPLODE, and then you win. No more combat tricks, none of the "will I counter this or that" type of thing.

Just EXPLODE!!!

Maximus
04-25-2013, 02:54 AM
Congrats on taking the plunge! I've found storm much more rewarding than Stoneblade, hopefully you will too.

Thanks to your timely statements in another certain thread, I have also been playing storm. That said, I would like to know why there's such a discrepancy in tutor choice? Is there any general consensus on whether the cantrips, 1 grim tutor, or burning wishes are the best choice?

Lemnear
04-25-2013, 02:57 AM
Thanks to your timely statements in another certain thread, I have also been playing storm. That said, I would like to know why there's such a discrepancy in tutor choice? Is there any general consensus on whether the cantrips, 1 grim tutor, or burning wishes are the best choice?

There is no consense. The question pops up every 2-3 pages in this thread lately. Please scroll a few pages back for the pro's and con's for each build

phazonmutant
04-25-2013, 03:46 AM
Thanks to your timely statements in another certain thread, I have also been playing storm. That said, I would like to know why there's such a discrepancy in tutor choice? Is there any general consensus on whether the cantrips, 1 grim tutor, or burning wishes are the best choice?

The linked spreadsheet in my signature has some data regarding the quantitative differences between the decks, but unfortunately that doesn't really give much information about the qualitative differences between them.
It just straight-up doesn't make sense to me to play 4 Preordains before the first Grim Tutor and the 7th discard spell, but I haven't really tested the 16-cantrip list. I know Prosak's list has done well over many events, so it can't be awful.
I don't really see the point in running Burning Wish in a Cabal Ritual shell. It doesn't play nice with Cabal Ritual or Past in Flames, just like Chrome Mox (which coincidentally helps maximize Burning Wish).

Maximus
04-25-2013, 04:41 AM
I spend more time playing to learn over playing to win, so I'm actually starting on the 2011 version of the deck with 2 grim tutor over any of the more modern variations. I do plan to try all of them eventually. I love the Burning Wishes in Doomsday but I have mixed feelings about them for this deck. I'll probably lurk this thread for a while to see what I can learn on my own.

Varal
04-25-2013, 06:17 AM
Lately, I've seen many lists playing Sensei's Divining Top either maindeck or in the sideboard. I assume they're useful against discard spells and can be used as pseudo Brainstorm with fetchlands. Does anyone knows when they should be sideboarded in, how to use them and how well they perform?

Lemnear
04-25-2013, 06:26 AM
Lately, I've seen many lists playing Sensei's Divining Top either maindeck or in the sideboard. I assume they're useful against discard spells and can be used as pseudo Brainstorm with fetchlands. Does anyone knows when they should be sideboarded in, how to use them and how well they perform?

I doubt SDT is better than Confidant against discard

Patrunkenphat7
04-25-2013, 11:05 AM
I have found that Dark Confidant is simply not good like it used to be. The "slow" decks or the midrange discard decks put on way too much pressure for Bobby to be good, and cards like Liliana of the Veil and Jace are huge problems for the Bob strategy.

I think it's interesting that many people on this thread are still on "Prosak Storm." Ad Nauseam is pretty poor in this deck (Prosak has even said that he usually only casts it once per tournament), and Grim Tutor is still a great tutor that everyone seems to have forgotten about. Try playing Empty the Warrens over Ad Nauseam and add 2 Grim Tutor to the deck. You will win many more games, and the deck will have more options and consistency.

Tammit67
04-25-2013, 01:24 PM
Lately, I've seen many lists playing Sensei's Divining Top either maindeck or in the sideboard. I assume they're useful against discard spells and can be used as pseudo Brainstorm with fetchlands. Does anyone knows when they should be sideboarded in, how to use them and how well they perform?

It comes in against the decks you want ignorant bliss for: hymn to tourachs/liliana out of jund or other decks with a lot of discard but not much else. Float your tutor on top and play out all artifact mana until you can go get past in flames. They work ok, but not great. Haven't been immensely satisfied with either top, ignorant bliss, or dark confidant. You can get away with smart cantripping in these matchups though and I consider these cards a luxury. Confidant sucks against jund, but pretty decent against control where applicable

End3r000
04-26-2013, 12:00 AM
Number one thing I sideboard out is Ad Nauseam and the Chrome Mox. Course no one agrees with the list I run so I'll continue to not contribute.

phazonmutant
04-26-2013, 02:38 AM
I think it's interesting that many people on this thread are still on "Prosak Storm." Ad Nauseam is pretty poor in this deck (Prosak has even said that he usually only casts it once per tournament), and Grim Tutor is still a great tutor that everyone seems to have forgotten about. Try playing Empty the Warrens over Ad Nauseam and add 2 Grim Tutor to the deck. You will win many more games, and the deck will have more options and consistency.

That's a different deck. There doesn't seem to be a thread for it on the source, but on the storm boards it's called "Grinding Station". It's an awesome, underplayed deck that I think could be every bit as good as ANT and harkens back to old Iggy Pop decks. The only list I've found on The Source is a pimp thread post: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?4607-DO-NOT-TRY-TO-SELL-IN-HERE-Pimp-Legacy-Decks&p=711134&viewfull=1#post711134
If you're not all-in on making Ad Nauseam the best it can be, I agree it makes sense to cut it. But if you do, you want to play a shit tonne of Past in Flames and Tendrils and your U opponents are just kinda stuck wondering what to do.

Asgar
04-26-2013, 06:40 AM
I'Ve found an old tournament Report from April '12 by the German inventor. I know the Deck changed over the Time (Running a few infernals main as i remember), but its Good to get an idea of the Artist formaly known as Land-go-Tendrils:
http://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2011/12/09/being-on-fire-7-0-with-grinding-station/


By the Way: if you can't afford a grim Tutor but want the Luxors of anothe Business-spell an Empty the warrens Main is the best Alternative in my opinion :)

Mindlash
04-26-2013, 06:47 AM
That's a different deck. There doesn't seem to be a thread for it on the source, but on the storm boards it's called "Grinding Station". It's an awesome, underplayed deck that I think could be every bit as good as ANT and harkens back to old Iggy Pop decks. The only list I've found on The Source is a pimp thread post: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?4607-DO-NOT-TRY-TO-SELL-IN-HERE-Pimp-Legacy-Decks&p=711134&viewfull=1#post711134
If you're not all-in on making Ad Nauseam the best it can be, I agree it makes sense to cut it. But if you do, you want to play a shit tonne of Past in Flames and Tendrils and your U opponents are just kinda stuck wondering what to do.

There is a thread on the source:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22550-Introducing-Grinding-Station

The thread is a bit old and the decklists may be outdated, but it links to some interessting articles from Jona and gives a good insight on how to play the deck.

Latest decklist from Jona I found on stormboards is this one from January 2013:

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
1 Bayou
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Past in Flames
4 Ponder
4 Tendrils of Agony

//Sideboard
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Carpet of Flowers
4 Dread of Night
2 Ad Nauseam
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Inquisition of Kozilek

The deck plays nicely and the cards you to build this will be under 5 bucks if you already own some standard ANT list. I also has a very good matchup against RUG Delver :-) Something other storm lists do not offer :-)

Haven't played it a lot lately because I seem to be to dumb to play the 8-7 playstyle vs Hymns and Lilianas :-/
Maybe I am just to unexperienced with the deck.
Some guy from germany went like 12:2 in GP Strasbourg with Grinding Station, but lost 3 times in row afterwards...

Patrunkenphat7
04-26-2013, 10:07 AM
Thanks for the info!

Star|Scream
04-26-2013, 01:45 PM
What is the ideal manabase for a regular version of this deck (4/4/4/4 or 4/4/4/2 + grim + therapy)

The last two highly-placed decks at SCG both ran 2 gemstone mines, but some people on here bemoan that.

Patrunkenphat7
04-26-2013, 01:56 PM
I think there is too much attrition in this deck to run Gemstone Mines. They tend to run out a lot, and I'm not really sure why you need them.
My manabase:
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
5 Blue Fetchlands

SB
1 Tropical Island

I used to run a Bloodstained Mire over the 5th blue fetch, but the 5th blue fetch makes my SB Trop more consistent since I am usually boarding out 1 Island in the matchups where I want the green. Bayou is 10x worse than Trop, and it's really not needed.

JamieW89
04-27-2013, 06:43 PM
For me:

Fixed: 12
4 Polluted Delta
4 other Fetch (depending on sb etc, at least 3 blue)
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Island

Options: 3-4 of the following
1 Volcanic
1 Badlands/ 2nd Volcanic (don't like it without wishes)
1 Trop/Bayou (To save a SB slot, playing the other one in the board as you want 2 green duals if boarding decays versus decks like MUD/Mav)
2nd Island (I see no need for it, but it's not bad)
9th & 10th fetch (more shuffle effects is always solid)
1 Karakas (Don't like it without chants main)

I play:
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Sea
1 Volc
1 Trop
4 Delta
4 Misty
1 Catacombs
(Bayou SB)

Patrunkenphat7
04-27-2013, 08:41 PM
I really don't understand why you need 2 green duals when you are fetching for the green the turn you use it if you fear Wasteland against something like Maverick. Maindeck Trop is a huge liability against any Wasteland deck, and I would never want a maindeck land that is strictly worse than a basic Island game 1. I have never had an issue with only running 1 Trop SB as my green source.

Dark Ritual
04-28-2013, 12:50 AM
You want two green sources if you're also boarding xantid swarms generally speaking because merfolk packs wasteland and xantid swarm is literally the best card in our 75 against them. I play a tropical island maindeck over basic island just to save sideboard space. The ability to have it wastelanded rarely comes up and I'm willing to lose a handful of percentage points against wasteland decks by getting an additional sideboard slot. Right now I'm experimenting with bayou maindeck as well over the lone gemstone mine; it has negatively affected my lines of play one game thus far. I might move it to the sideboard and put a 3rd u. sea or fetchland in its place, but time will tell.

Grinding station is an iffy choice currently because of all the discard in the meta. They will likely discard and eat your tendrils with DRS, forcing you to find another tendrils or enough mana to go tutor chain into tendrils or tutor into tutor into PiF. I love grinding station a lot, but I don't like it in the current metagame over other storm decks that are more resilient to discard and deathrite shaman.

As for a really good RUG delver matchup, most storm decks are capable of beating RUG delver. It all comes down to the storm pilot. Can't win them all but at the same time if you know how to play against RUG the matchup becomes significantly better if not in your favor. It's just merfolk splashing green and red, at least to me. It runs a lot of the same cards as merfolk and if you know how to play around said cards, you can generally win with ease at least that's what I've found.

Secretly.A.Bee
04-28-2013, 02:17 AM
Honestly, Doomsday seems to be the best route to victory imho. I know that isn't what a lot of aggressive storm players wanna hear but its the truth. Also, this can be used as an argument supporting the role of red's inclusion; specifically speaking, Burning Wish.

-ABC

JamieW89
04-28-2013, 02:06 PM
Honestly, Doomsday seems to be the best route to victory imho. I know that isn't what a lot of aggressive storm players wanna hear but its the truth. Also, this can be used as an argument supporting the role of red's inclusion; specifically speaking, Burning Wish.

-ABC

Doomsday the best win condition in ANT? Are you trolling? It requires Sensei's Divining Top, which is weak with Cabal Ritual, and Infernal Tutor + LED is not quite the best way to find Doomsday. Not to mention that the draw spell & DD aren't too synergentic with AdN. I have played hybrid lists before, but I found them to be inferior to either DDFT or ANT.
If you meant to state DDFT is a better deck than ANT, that is a completely different discussion. For most people it is also fairly fruitless as they don't want to invest the required time to become proficient with DDFT, which is a much harder deck to pilot than ANT is. I don't think their power level in the current meta is that far apart, but if you believe so why not convince us with arguments?

Patrunkenphat7
04-28-2013, 05:00 PM
You want two green sources if you're also boarding xantid swarms generally speaking because merfolk packs wasteland and xantid swarm is literally the best card in our 75 against them. I play a tropical island maindeck over basic island just to save sideboard space. The ability to have it wastelanded rarely comes up and I'm willing to lose a handful of percentage points against wasteland decks by getting an additional sideboard slot. Right now I'm experimenting with bayou maindeck as well over the lone gemstone mine; it has negatively affected my lines of play one game thus far. I might move it to the sideboard and put a 3rd u. sea or fetchland in its place, but time will tell.

Grinding station is an iffy choice currently because of all the discard in the meta. They will likely discard and eat your tendrils with DRS, forcing you to find another tendrils or enough mana to go tutor chain into tendrils or tutor into tutor into PiF. I love grinding station a lot, but I don't like it in the current metagame over other storm decks that are more resilient to discard and deathrite shaman.

As for a really good RUG delver matchup, most storm decks are capable of beating RUG delver. It all comes down to the storm pilot. Can't win them all but at the same time if you know how to play against RUG the matchup becomes significantly better if not in your favor. It's just merfolk splashing green and red, at least to me. It runs a lot of the same cards as merfolk and if you know how to play around said cards, you can generally win with ease at least that's what I've found.

Past in Flames combo is very good against discard decks. The "Grinding Station" list with 4 Tendrils is really strange... But I can say that the concept of going for Past in Flames over Ad Nauseam is better against both discard decks and RUG.

Fatal
04-29-2013, 07:12 AM
1 Big diffrence:

- Past in Flames can be hated very easy with any gy hate even like shaman/RIP etc..
- AdN can't be hated so easy only aggresive play can change it value.

Patrunkenphat7
04-29-2013, 10:34 AM
1 Big diffrence:

- Past in Flames can be hated very easy with any gy hate even like shaman/RIP etc..
- AdN can't be hated so easy only aggresive play can change it value.

I'm just speaking from experience that when I had Ad Nauseam and Past in Flames in my deck, I almost never used Ad Nauseam. I don't think it's a debate between Past in Flames and AN; I think it's a debate between Empty the Warrens and AN. Also, it is very easy to "hate" o AN, since all your opponent has to deal is deal you damage quickly... Shaman isn't a big issue for Past in Flames if you play well. I think PiF is easily the best combo engine if you're willing to think a little harder instead of autopilot an AN flip. This deck has really evolved into a PiF combo deck, and I think there is a debate to be had about whether or not Empty the Warrens or AN is a better secondary engine.

Lemnear
04-29-2013, 11:00 AM
I'm just speaking from experience that when I had Ad Nauseam and Past in Flames in my deck, I almost never used Ad Nauseam. I don't think it's a debate between Past in Flames and AN; I think it's a debate between Empty the Warrens and AN. Also, it is very easy to "hate" o AN, since all your opponent has to deal is deal you damage quickly... Shaman isn't a big issue for Past in Flames if you play well. I think PiF is easily the best combo engine if you're willing to think a little harder instead of autopilot an AN flip. This deck has really evolved into a PiF combo deck, and I think there is a debate to be had about whether or not Empty the Warrens or AN is a better secondary engine.

As i said a few pages ago: You can cut Ad Nauseam from this deck and barely notice.

Loosing to a single DRS is a proof of stupidity imo. I cannot count the people I have seen trying to play around the obvious "Tap Shaman and remove the Infernal Tutor" with cantrips or shit instead of Infernal -> Infernal -> PIF.

Asthereal
04-29-2013, 11:26 AM
If you have that amount of mana available, you can probably even go Infernal -> Infernal -> Infernal -> Infernal -> Tendrils for 20. :tongue:

Fatal
04-29-2013, 05:25 PM
Problem is shaman connected with discard where Past in Flames should give advantage - and it gives not.

Sure if you can play it around having a lot of mana its easy but most time you haven't time - because BUG aren't easy MU - specially Delver(tempo) versions (its probably one of the hardest after decay resolve problem with CB) when you have about 2-3 turn before he discard you to oblivion having enough counter to control your sculpted topdecks (combine hate like counters + discard + MD GY hate in sort of Shaman which decrease your threshold and turn off slow grind past in flames is probably the biggest problem in actual meta). Second one is problably Esper Blade which also combine discard + counter but less deathrite shaman version and mostly no Hymns but also hatebears/pernament based sb (canonist/CB).

Lemnear
04-30-2013, 02:11 AM
Problem is shaman connected with discard where Past in Flames should give advantage - and it gives not.

Sure if you can play it around having a lot of mana its easy but most time you haven't time - because BUG aren't easy MU - specially Delver(tempo) versions (its probably one of the hardest after decay resolve problem with CB) when you have about 2-3 turn before he discard you to oblivion having enough counter to control your sculpted topdecks (combine hate like counters + discard + MD GY hate in sort of Shaman which decrease your threshold and turn off slow grind past in flames is probably the biggest problem in actual meta). Second one is problably Esper Blade which also combine discard + counter but less deathrite shaman version and mostly no Hymns but also hatebears/pernament based sb (canonist/CB).

That's why I play TES in the current meta, to avoid being dismembered by discard.

SaberTooth
04-30-2013, 08:16 AM
what dou you think guys about a single chain of vapor maindeck on prozak's list? can deal with hatebears and maybe another permanent and it is a "storm engine" combined with mana artifacts

Patrunkenphat7
04-30-2013, 09:08 AM
That's why I play TES in the current meta, to avoid being dismembered by discard.

Hmm... From my experience, "ANT" (if that's what we're still calling it for some reason) is much better against discard decks that also play countermagic than TES. TES is better against discard-only decks simply because it can win faster, but really both of these decks should be beating those decks.

For all of you who keep bringing up DRS as an argument against PiF... Just play the deck. I thought the same thing before I actually started playing the deck, but testing and tournament play will show that DRS is really not a big deal at all.

CabalTherapy
04-30-2013, 10:46 AM
I apologize for not reading the whole topic^^ but is one Lim-Duls Vault main viable?
As a replacement for Grim Tutor in a non-Burning Wish list.

Dia_Bot
04-30-2013, 10:51 AM
The problem with LDV is that it cost life (incompatible with AN), is card disadvantage en cost 2 mana which makes it compete with 'real' tutors.
Overall it's just worse in comparison with Burning Wish or Grim tutor.
If by money restrictions you are unable to have acces to a Grim tutor I guess it's okay in a non BW list, but so is an extra cantrip.

Lemnear
04-30-2013, 11:28 AM
I'd rather play Opt than LDV lol. No reason to run carddisadvantage for UB in this deck with all the good cantrips available.

Dark Ritual
04-30-2013, 11:41 AM
Of course DDFT is superior to ANT. However, how many people are proficient at piloting DDFT in general? 10?

The lifeloss associated with LDV in conjunction with ad nauseam shouldn't matter. When you LDV at their end step, you should be winning on your turn with your storm engine of choice almost every time unless you went land, petal, go, EoT LDV then you're probably winning two turns later unless your hand is already stacked with a critical mass of rituals and artifacts. As for LDV being worse than wish, I disagree. When you run wish you literally reduce your sideboard space by 33% or more, and untapping after resolving wish doesn't necessarily win you the game. LDV finds infernal tutor or whatever you need. It is literally vampiric tutor for an additional blue mana as it can find IT, LED, DRit, CRit, or anything else you need assuming you have the necessary life to go through your deck on turn 2. When you find multiple things you need with a brainstorm in the 5 or in your hand as well it really showcases the power of the card as well as brainstorm, but we're combo players. I hope we know how ridiculous brainstorm is in this deck.

As for playing around DRS by using ad nauseam, good luck with that. DRS typically pings us for 2 every single turn and it comes down turn 1. In conjunction with lifeloss from probe and fetchlands you're likely going to be at 12 or less life before you cast ad nauseam because decks with DRS typically pack discard as well, slowing us down not to mention they discard relevant cards and exile said relevant cards so PiF isn't the best anyways. It's hard to reach enough rituals to go IT -> IT -> PiF after their hymn to tourach hits us or what have you unless we draw lots of lands and artifact mana but then they're exiling the rituals each turn we need to fuel PiF.

I keep AdN in this deck over EtW because I hate EtW that much. SFM is too annoying even with 4 therapy to flashback to hit batterskull. I also like drawing ad nauseam naturally, because it is generally very good in those situations if you have the rituals to power it out and you may even be lucky and be able to float 3 mana with a cracked LED in response. That's why I run the card. Also don't like being cold to a tormod's crypt effect or other such nonsense. The only thing I hate about ad nauseam is when I flip it to dark confidant, but that's me misboarding more than anything else.

Fatal
05-05-2013, 12:56 PM
Topped this weekend with this list:


4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Past in Flames
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Cabal Ritual
1 Grim Tutor
2 Preordain
1 Swamp
2 Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
//SB
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Empty the Warrens
3 Dark Confidant
3 Chain of Vapor
1 Tropical Island
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Extirpate


MU:

Round 1:

Esper Blade 2 - 0

Game 1 - I draw nuts and go off after first dark ritual resolve - discard FoW by duress and go adN route ended Tendrils for 20.

SB:
-2 Cabal Ritual
-1 Scalding Tarn
-1 Grim Tutor
+2 Xantid Swarm
+1 Tropical Island
+1 Empty the Warrens

I opened hand with Empty the Warrens in hand and 2 Brainstorms. In turn 3 I go off after few discards (he still draw them). That was interesting combination:
He FoW with a fuel + 1 unknown card - I played my last discard and cast all mana, then resp to my Infernal Tutor with Brainstorm and crack all LEDs for mana to dodge spell pierces (Empty was on top+2 unknown cards) - My opponent misplay and counter Infernal Tutor with Fow which he should resolve since first would be Brainstorm and I would resolving Tutor with 1 card in hand - I played that just to bid storm count - 16 tokens was enough, specially that I could flackback Therapies :).

I didn't suspect Esper that It had CB on SB but since it was game 2 I could fix my sb plan.

Round 2:

Tempo RUG 2 - 1 (with a lot of spell pierces MD)

Game 1:

He win the roll and keep 6 I had snap keep with 2 discard 1 cantrip 1 brainstorm and business + 1 land + 1 lotus.

He start normally delver go, I discard his FoW, he flip delver, cast cantrip and pass after putting next land), I cast Discard clear the way and draw nuts with brainstorm to go off.

SB:
+3 Dark Confidant
+2 Xantid Swarm
+1 Tropical Island
-1 Fetch (Scalding Tarn)
-2 Cabal Ritual
-1 Chrome Mox
-1 Ad N
-1 Preordain

Game 2:

Delver get me - I didn't find IT/Grim.

Game 3:

I had 2 Confidants online for 2 turns - It was enough.
Opponent try to sculpt hand with a Clique - I opened Tendrils / Past in Flames / IT / LED / C. Ritual and full GY. I made 21 storm and kill him ;).

Round 3 - Jund - Bye.

In top I met my Bro with Imperial Painter which isn't bad MU but we choose to split prizes.

Few words about the build:

MD: 1 Chrome Mox is was good all day bumping 1 more petal gives more stable and faster go off with Ad N route. 10 cantrips was good balance to find all what you need - Grim Tutor was good as always when you didn't draw LED or just to make all deck more consistant. 10 Effects to control opponent hand was always good, I didnt had problems to name to therapy, also life lost wasn't painful.

SB: Empty the Warrens was good call as second wincon when you need hurry - connected with Cabal therapies perfectly.
Dark Confidant/Xantid Swarm split was great - Dark Confidant remember my way TPS is still existence in Vintage - love them after opponent take out removal - they are great with Cabal Therapies just to sculpt all opponent hand after ganing enough cards to go off with Past in Flames/EtW/Tendrils.
Extripates was because of my last weekend I loses in finals vs Reanimator so I wanted to have edge over - them.

Pdingo
05-05-2013, 02:45 PM
@fatal
Why do you side in Bobs against RUG?
seems pretty bad. I understand swarm but not BoB?
1. You lose a lot life because with his Clock.(Only he have bad Hand)
2. It get bolted so easy. And you dont side a Card in for a bolt^^
3. I think you have a lot luck that you win with 2 Bobs against RUG.

Why you run Chrome Mox? I mean its not really a petal.^^ Ok maybe mit AD but 1 off seems random..


I would never side out Ad nauseam. Its allowed you first Turn kills(rarely) and when not, it wins against aggro deck to.

Fatal
05-07-2013, 11:00 AM
Playing vs RUG has two line of play:

His beatdown with very few counterbackup (more burn oriented)
Control roll with not too fast clock (1 dude and hand full of counters)

I pick up second one line of play since I saw quite a lot of cards boarding - Bob for is like ticking Ad N - it gives cards for life but slow over time - best for grind game then go Past in Flames route to win the match - similar like in Vintage. Swarm is good but it doesn't hurt opponent - so you have to storm for the same number. I pick up split of both to have advantage over opponent, and also doesn't die to discard (which RUG isn't running) but - I guess that my opponent doesn't run spell snares - but he is running spell pierces and flusters so any creature-based pernament bob/swarm would give an edge. Since I had split between both I pick up both of them - that was the key to victory - I empty my opponent board and build storm with flashbacked therapy and drawn cards to lethal opponent who was around 14 life.

Reason from you:

1. Ad N also loses life here you have same advantage but you can control it with cantrips - after I board out Ad N until I'm leaving I can win just from tendrils from hand (ad N route was only factor to stay your life proper high).

2. Sure but how many RUG players keep in bolts if he has pyroblast vs your brainstorms, spell pierces/flusters/cliques - what you bring out - for sure bolts :)

3. Bob can always chump - I didn't lose single life from both of them - just proper cantrips and when drawing 3 cards per turn you draw cantrips like a boss - but maybe it was luck, its still less risky then flipping Colossus ;) - if he keep bolts you gain 3 life which normally mean 1 turn - walk. You can always kill him with flashed therapy to avoid lifeloss if you ended your cantrip drawing.

4. Chrome Mox gives you speed and makes much more constant kills from Ad N - for me 4 petals is too random.

Pdingo
05-08-2013, 01:19 PM
I think side in bob in a tempo match up is completly wrong. He makes not much more than the sided out card in this match up.
Xantid swarm make a lot more because the oppenent CAN'T cast spells and i mean you can eas go off with 4-6 cards in hand.
BoB gives you card advenge but this make nothing , when you haven't enough discard in Hand.
But i wouldn't play one of these cards. I prefer Carpet of flowers.

Gedaco
05-10-2013, 06:18 AM
OK I'm back with another outside-the-box idea. What if we go -2 Gitaxian Probe +2 Surgical Extraction in the main (with 4 Cabal Therapy)? It serves the same purpose of letting us see their hand but also lets us Surgical their Force of Wills so we don't lose to a topdeck.

Or what about those times when you go Therapy -> they Brainstorm in response. You can instant speed Surgical their Brainstorm after it resolves but before Therapy resolves. You still get to see their hand and hit with Therapy, they have no more Brainstorms, and you get to shuffle away the cards they hid with Brainstorm. In that scenario Surgical is a virtual 3-for-1, since your opponent will probably hide their most important cards!

And it has incidental benefits of improving the G1 matchup against Dredge, Reanimator, and other ANT decks. Or any other deck that requires a specific card to combo (Show and Tell, Hive Mind, Painted Stone, Cephalid Breakfast, Aluren). Oh and it's a free shuffle effect if you need one off Brainstorm (target yourself, fail to find). And counters a Deathrite Shaman activation. Or protects yourself from enemy Surgical Extractions.

And it frees up two sideboard slots.

I know this is a very old post but I searched almost the entire topic and I couldn't find any answers to this. Is this a stupid thing? I guess the arguments are actually valuable.
Any thoughts? :)

Fatal
05-10-2013, 07:01 AM
Main difference - "draw a card" - while Gitraxian Probe doesn't cost you any card from hand - surgical exctraction cost you one - which may lead to situation that your hand is too short to generate proper storm count. Its ok when you just sculpt card from opponent hand (but this mean you know his hand).

dune2k
05-10-2013, 08:28 AM
Main difference - "draw a card" - while Gitraxian Probe doesn't cost you any card from hand - surgical exctraction cost you one - which may lead to situation that your hand is too short to generate proper storm count. Its ok when you just sculpt card from opponent hand (but this mean you know his hand).

This.
Drawing a card can be the difference between winning and loosing.

Gedaco
05-10-2013, 09:05 AM
Is there a reason that Carpet of Flowers or Xantid Swarm is favored over something like Defense Grid when boarding against RUG? I feel like I'd rather wait the extra turn and be able to fetch basics than have to open up a Bayou to Wasteland.

Another thing....
Maybe because it's 2 mana casting cost?
It's not that bad I think.

//

Now, maybe this is silly but, why do we keep discussing Burning Wish in an ANT topic?
Sure ANT can use Burning Wish but just as an utility card and not a "main" engine (4x copies)
TES uses Burning Wish and uses 4/5 colors; uses 3-4x Burning Wish; uses Silence/Chant; +explosiveness;
ANT uses maximum 2 colors with splashes; maximum 2 B. Wish; no Silence/Chant; + consistency;

It's a neverending discussion. Using or not using Burning Wishes.....
I don't know. It depends on the metagame and on the player.
Discuss TES on TES topic and discuss ANT in ANT topic :)

//
Btw, thanks for the opinions on Probe vs Extraction ;)

Pdingo
05-10-2013, 04:02 PM
Make a bad 2:3 with Ant at the bazaar of moxen..play the same list like on th gp strassbourg(7:2 main)
Lose against doomsday..hard match up because he have to much silence +discard+top and can play the controll deck.
Then against sneak and show. I should have win this one but after i the start hand and count 7 cards i take it and have a dream hand but i realize to late that a sticky sleeve was under the other...i call the judge and i have to take a mulligan to 6.
Draw no land and it was probably game for my oppenent..

Then the next 2 i win against random rogue not real legacy deck and TES.
Match 5 damn shity rogue deck i ever seen...
4 thalia main 4 revoker main 4 meddling mage main 4 dryad militant main 2 ethersworn cannonist main
and 4 rishadan ports and rest in pieces...well 2 times in bouth games to 6 and dont find enough hate against those random hatebears..
Game^^ lol haha

Then i droped and go shoping some cards^^

But was a funny day;)
Next time:)

Fatal
05-13-2013, 06:21 AM
Interesting topped ANT list from BoM:7 running 3 MD Ad N - this looks like old tech or meta call - first lists of ANT was running so many engines but it was cut due of consistency flipping. Most time drawing naturally ad N is very good - but if your list running 3 of then its quite painful, this list also running 2 Chrome Mox which mean it was tuned to faster kill rather like TES rather then sculpting storm count with cantrips.

Pdingo
05-13-2013, 07:20 AM
I tested it a Little bit but i don't like it. Because you have less Cantrips and maybe you draw a lot ADN, but the chrome moxes are so bad when you have it on Hand..Only good in the Ad nauseam and the lifeloss are too much.
The second Thing is the Thoughtseize with 3 Ad nauseam? lol? How can that work well?
Don't like it^^

Dia_Bot
05-13-2013, 10:27 AM
I've played with 2 Ad Nauseam in the past but it was a version with chant/Silence en with a lower mana curve (played only 3 Cabal rituals etc.). I've tested 3 Ad Nauseam and even though you get a higher percentage of T1 or 2 kills you can easily kill yourself even at 18 or 19 life.
Additionally Chrome mox sucks :laugh:

phazonmutant
05-13-2013, 11:11 AM
Yeah that list kinda blew my mind. I guess he must have used Ad Naus as more of a draw 5-7 than as an actual kill condition. It seems very odd...

Fatal - it seems hard to believe that he's able to kill faster because you still can't easily get thresh before turn 3 and it seems unlikely that he's often going to be able to win the turn he casts Ad Nauseam. Could be wrong though, haven't tested it.

Mr. Safety
05-15-2013, 09:03 AM
Noob questions here, hope I don't bother anyone:

1) How good, if at all, is Rain of Filth in ANT? It seems to be able to accomplish threshold with Cabal Ritual really easily. I know it's worse than LED, but would 1-2 copies of Rain of Filth be ok to substitute in the typical slots dedicated to something like Gitaxian Probe? (reasoning: I don't have LED's but I want to play storm, lol)

2) Is Angel's Grace too janky to try? Combining Grace + Ad Nauseam is a win on the spot from my noob playtesting. Draw the whole deck, lay out Lotus Petals, Silence, Rituals, and Tendrils for 30.

Hope I'm not bothering anyone, just some noob questions, hope I can get some feedback.

Tammit67
05-15-2013, 11:38 AM
Noob questions here, hope I don't bother anyone:

1) How good, if at all, is Rain of Filth in ANT? It seems to be able to accomplish threshold with Cabal Ritual really easily. I know it's worse than LED, but would 1-2 copies of Rain of Filth be ok to substitute in the typical slots dedicated to something like Gitaxian Probe? (reasoning: I don't have LED's but I want to play storm, lol)

2) Is Angel's Grace too janky to try? Combining Grace + Ad Nauseam is a win on the spot from my noob playtesting. Draw the whole deck, lay out Lotus Petals, Silence, Rituals, and Tendrils for 30.

Hope I'm not bothering anyone, just some noob questions, hope I can get some feedback.

Rain of filth is a very poor substitute for LED. You'll severely hurt your ad nauseams and past in flames avenues of victory in one go. LED protects you from not having enough mana after a slew of discard rips your hand and will get you hellbent post ad nauseum and produces the critical red necessary for a lot of past in flames kills. Rain of filth does none of these. The tricks with LED, Brainstorm and Probe are too good to cut IMO.

Angel's grace requires a commitment to white that I am unwilling to give a serious try at this point. If I were to do so, it would not be for angel's grace, a card that works with the least used avenue of victory for me. You'll make it harder on yourself to get hellbent without LED while weakening your mana base without actually improving matchups. Games where you can grace into tutor for Ad nauseum you can just as easily set up tutor chaining or past in flames. If you want a better Ad Nauseum deck, I suggest TES.

However neither are remotely as powerful without LED, which is completely necessary for this archetype.

mike1987
05-15-2013, 01:36 PM
Topped this weekend with this list:


4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Past in Flames
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Cabal Ritual
1 Grim Tutor
2 Preordain
1 Swamp
2 Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
//SB
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Empty the Warrens
3 Dark Confidant
3 Chain of Vapor
1 Tropical Island
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Extirpate


MU:

Round 1:

Esper Blade 2 - 0

Game 1 - I draw nuts and go off after first dark ritual resolve - discard FoW by duress and go adN route ended Tendrils for 20.

SB:
-2 Cabal Ritual
-1 Scalding Tarn
-1 Grim Tutor
+2 Xantid Swarm
+1 Tropical Island
+1 Empty the Warrens

I opened hand with Empty the Warrens in hand and 2 Brainstorms. In turn 3 I go off after few discards (he still draw them). That was interesting combination:
He FoW with a fuel + 1 unknown card - I played my last discard and cast all mana, then resp to my Infernal Tutor with Brainstorm and crack all LEDs for mana to dodge spell pierces (Empty was on top+2 unknown cards) - My opponent misplay and counter Infernal Tutor with Fow which he should resolve since first would be Brainstorm and I would resolving Tutor with 1 card in hand - I played that just to bid storm count - 16 tokens was enough, specially that I could flackback Therapies :).

I didn't suspect Esper that It had CB on SB but since it was game 2 I could fix my sb plan.

Round 2:

Tempo RUG 2 - 1 (with a lot of spell pierces MD)

Game 1:

He win the roll and keep 6 I had snap keep with 2 discard 1 cantrip 1 brainstorm and business + 1 land + 1 lotus.

He start normally delver go, I discard his FoW, he flip delver, cast cantrip and pass after putting next land), I cast Discard clear the way and draw nuts with brainstorm to go off.

SB:
+3 Dark Confidant
+2 Xantid Swarm
+1 Tropical Island
-1 Fetch (Scalding Tarn)
-2 Cabal Ritual
-1 Chrome Mox
-1 Ad N
-1 Preordain

Game 2:

Delver get me - I didn't find IT/Grim.

Game 3:

I had 2 Confidants online for 2 turns - It was enough.
Opponent try to sculpt hand with a Clique - I opened Tendrils / Past in Flames / IT / LED / C. Ritual and full GY. I made 21 storm and kill him ;).

Round 3 - Jund - Bye.

In top I met my Bro with Imperial Painter which isn't bad MU but we choose to split prizes.

Few words about the build:

MD: 1 Chrome Mox is was good all day bumping 1 more petal gives more stable and faster go off with Ad N route. 10 cantrips was good balance to find all what you need - Grim Tutor was good as always when you didn't draw LED or just to make all deck more consistant. 10 Effects to control opponent hand was always good, I didnt had problems to name to therapy, also life lost wasn't painful.

SB: Empty the Warrens was good call as second wincon when you need hurry - connected with Cabal therapies perfectly.
Dark Confidant/Xantid Swarm split was great - Dark Confidant remember my way TPS is still existence in Vintage - love them after opponent take out removal - they are great with Cabal Therapies just to sculpt all opponent hand after ganing enough cards to go off with Past in Flames/EtW/Tendrils.
Extripates was because of my last weekend I loses in finals vs Reanimator so I wanted to have edge over - them.


Nice list there! Just wondering how is the empty the warrens treating you so far? What kinda decks do you side it in and do you remove ad nauseum for that? Thanks!

Mr. Safety
05-15-2013, 01:38 PM
Rain of filth is a very poor substitute for LED. You'll severely hurt your ad nauseams and past in flames avenues of victory in one go. LED protects you from not having enough mana after a slew of discard rips your hand and will get you hellbent post ad nauseum and produces the critical red necessary for a lot of past in flames kills. Rain of filth does none of these. The tricks with LED, Brainstorm and Probe are too good to cut IMO.

Angel's grace requires a commitment to white that I am unwilling to give a serious try at this point. If I were to do so, it would not be for angel's grace, a card that works with the least used avenue of victory for me. You'll make it harder on yourself to get hellbent without LED while weakening your mana base without actually improving matchups. Games where you can grace into tutor for Ad nauseum you can just as easily set up tutor chaining or past in flames. If you want a better Ad Nauseum deck, I suggest TES.

However neither are remotely as powerful without LED, which is completely necessary for this archetype.

Fair enough, and thanks!

Fatal
05-15-2013, 04:56 PM
Nice list there! Just wondering how is the empty the warrens treating you so far? What kinda decks do you side it in and do you remove ad nauseum for that? Thanks!

Almost all blue/or with discard when you need more wincons or face wall of counters.

mike1987
05-18-2013, 12:12 AM
What should I board in against heavy discard decks(eg team america/jund)? I saw three different options

1) Dark confidant
2) Sensei's Divining top
3) Ignorant bliss


I have been playtesting the deck for a while but my meta consists of mostly blue decks and combo so I haven't been able to playtest against discard decks yet. Need some opinion on that, thanks:laugh:

Tammit67
05-18-2013, 01:07 AM
What should I board in against heavy discard decks(eg team america/jund)? I saw three different options

1) Dark confidant
2) Sensei's Divining top
3) Ignorant bliss


I have been playtesting the deck for a while but my meta consists of mostly blue decks and combo so I haven't been able to playtest against discard decks yet. Need some opinion on that, thanks:laugh:

None of them are fantastic, otherwise everyone would run the same thing. Just play out all artifact mana and rip into tutors or past in flames. Clever brainstorming/cantripping can ease the reliance on those sideboard cards

Pdingo
05-18-2013, 01:35 PM
@Tammit
Agree, but for me is the best thing Ignorant Bliss because, it's protectet your Tutor in Hand completly. BoB and Top not. Bliss have saved me some games against Jund.

walker
05-18-2013, 02:36 PM
I have had good luck with sylvan library vs discard as well as counter decks. Besides offering card advantage on its own it works well with cantrips and fetches. Has anyone else used sylvan to success?

Pdingo
05-18-2013, 06:54 PM
Why i should use a Card that takes me life other than Ad nauseam? And it's not really good against discard.^^Then the top seems a lot better.
What are you doing when he discard the key Card in your Hand? Find a new one? I think then you are probably death.
Ignorant Bliss is one of the best Options. Because Bliss protect the Key Card.
The other is BoB. He don't protect the Key Card but makes a lot more Card advange. Maybe he take a Bolt or Counter against Jund or BUG.

Sloshthedark
05-20-2013, 03:10 AM
3x SDT main is working very well for me... lets you setup the cabal-IT sequence while hellbent lategame

a card to consider splashing G - Ground seal

how comes Prosak despite playing miserably with subpar ANT version reaches top 8/good results regularly?, each time I watch his match coverage he manages to play poor not just strategically but also technically, how is that possible, I won't go 2-2 in weekly local with that... Baugh is 5 minutes online and I couldn't think but the same of him, numerous fails just to pretend to play good and wins because of opps severe mana screw...

egosum
05-20-2013, 05:20 AM
Brief reporting.

Last saturday I top 2 in a local tournament (LCL, 108 Players) with the following list, basically the same list I played the last time I took it 5 months ago with some sideboard tweaks adapting it for the metagame:

Main 60

Lands 15

4x Polluted Delta
3x Misty Rainforest
1x Verdant Catacombs
2x Underground Sea
1x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
1x Volcanic Island
1x Swamp
1x Island

Artifacts 8

4x Lotus Petal
4x Lion's Eye Diamond

Sorceries 24

4x Duress
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ponder
4x Infernal Tutor
2x Grim Tutor
1x Past in Flames
1x Tendrils of Agony

Instants 13

4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Brainstorm
1x Ad Nauseam

Sideboard 15

1x Empty the Warrens
2x Karakas
3x Xantid Swarm
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Dread of Night
3x Chain of Vapor

For my taste this maindeck is still the most solid version, providing super consistent hands and packing enough threat density.

The deck looks like still in good shape.

The rounds where:

R1 - Mirror (ANT), vs. a good player and better friend, the last game was crucial when we both where in top deck he drew the IT the same turn I had mine in the top of the deck. 1-2
R2 - Hypergenesis.2-0
R3 - Infinite Halls (Omniscience + Maniac deck). 2-1
R4 - Jund. 2-0
R5 - U/W delver tempo. 2-1
R6 - U/W Miracles Cb-Top. 2-0
R7 - T.N.T. Another good player and friend, we decided to draw to avoid stupid "mirror-like" outcomes. ID
T8 - Jund. 2-1
T4 - Sneak Show. 2-1
FINAL - T.N.T. The guy who ID in R7. He went first due to swiss standings and 1st turn kill me. In second Match I started Gitaxian revealing: 2x Dark ritual, 1x Infernal Tutor, 1x Duress, 1x Inquisition of Kozilek, 2x Land. I proceeded to Therapy the rituals away. He drew + land + go. I Probed him again watching the 3rd ritual he just top decked, I cantripped and prepared for next turn kill and ship the turn telling him he had LED on top (as a kind of joke), then he drew and guess what? The LED was there so he Ad Nauseamed me out of the game taking the tournament.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

Gedaco
05-20-2013, 07:52 AM
Happy to know the results :)

2 things:
--> 2x Grim Tutor? With Ad Nauseam...How did that worked for you?
--> Xantid Swarms. Also, how did they worked the tournament?

Any changes you would make to the deck?

One more time, congratulations ;)

egosum
05-20-2013, 09:15 AM
Thank you!

Regarding Grim Tutor, as has been said before be me and some others. WHile it is not the best card one may want in the deck, is by far the best card in the available Legacy pool covering that 2 slots. It grants enough threat density, and the alternatives for this are Burnong Wish (played in TNT, the problem of being exiled is too big to count it as the same threat as Infernal tutor), Intuition (it is quite good, though it opens you to grave hate and it can't be played off rituals) and Lim-Dûl's Vault (it is both slow and card disadvantge, it works as a very crappy Vampiric Tutor). Grim Tutor is a necessary evil in ANT, IMO, putting all egs in one basket (with IT) is bad for two reasons, only 4 tutors and many cantrips can make you lose to fast decks just because you can't find the enabler but also makes you die to a single surgical extraction after a well-aimed discard.

Xantids are just gold, in the tournament granted me 2-3 wins. One against Infinite Halls: I played Swarm and he FoW'ed it with FoW, I proceeded to kill afterwards. Against Miracles I won against a hand of: Counterspell, REB, FLusterstorm, Snapcaster Mage. Those two are on top fo mind, but I remember siding it isn some other matches but can't remember the specific plays around them.

For possible cahnges... well I jsut feel the main deck is great as it is. I will only make some changes to the sideboard every time I will go to a tournament to adapt the deck for the metagame.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

Dark Ritual
05-21-2013, 02:56 PM
Against your finals opponent, did he even play a discard spell on turn 1 game 2? Was just wondering, because if he didn't it doesn't really make much sense at all seeing as how you could be holding the turn 2 kill and he simply didn't duress/IoK away your business spell. Not that it mattered in hindsight. Guy ripped incredibly well that third game to draw dark rit #3 and LED right off the top with no cantrips. Overall your list seems really good Inaki, I might have to run it in a tournament to see how it fares against 16 cantrips and 6 protection spells versus 8 protection spells and 12 cantrips.

I wouldn't ever run sylvan library over dark confidant in storm combo. Sylvan library is basically revealing tendrils of agony/PiF for every extra card drawn whereas confidant is usually 0, 1, or 2 damage for an extra card. There are corner cases where sylvan is better but those are few and far between (drawing multiple rituals and IT off of one trigger to win the same turn assuming you're hellbent due to their discard.) You can't dark rit into sylvan library on turn 1 either, as turn 1 bob is godlike when it sticks and typically wins me the game on the spot after I start drawing 2 cards a turn. They can have all the discard they want, but confidant typically grinds them out quite easily.

Fatal
05-21-2013, 05:15 PM
Bob has also great synergy with Cabal Therapy specially in kill turn to generate more storm and clean the way.

Dark Ritual
05-21-2013, 11:32 PM
Bob has also great synergy with Cabal Therapy specially in kill turn to generate more storm and clean the way.

Love this quite a bit too, as it comes in handy in the mirror match sometimes or against counterspell decks. I just love flashbacking therapy in general though assuming the opponent lacks brainstorm/I know their hand.

plimplam
05-22-2013, 07:11 AM
Hi! I've been testing ANT for a while and I have some questions. First of all, I've tried the green splash for abrupt decays and some xantid swarms. Well, I don't like it at all. So I return to my URB list:

1 Ad nauseam
4 Dark ritual
4 Cabal ritual
4 Brainstorm

1 Past in flames
1 Tendrils of agony
3 Cabal therapy
4 Duress
4 Gitaxian probe
4 Ponder
4 Burning wish
3 Infernal tutor

1 Chrome mox
4 Lotus petal
4 Lion's eye Diamond

1 Badlands
1 Volcanic island
2 Underground sea
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Polluted delta
4 Scalding tarn

Side:

4 Dread of night
3 Dark confidant
2 Chain of vapor
1 Ill-Gotten gains
1 Cabal therapy
1 Pyroclasm
1 Infernal tutor
1 Empty the warrens
1 Tendrils of agony

In a near future I'll make some changes. In the maindeck -1 Burning wish +1 Infernal tutor. In the side -1 Infernal tutor +1 Grim tutor -1 Empty the warrens +1 I don't know still.

With this list I decide to lost the counterbalance matchup, at least in the paper, I use to play TES, and sometimes I lost because of not having a discard spell ( becaue of silences ), so maybe I can win some match without abrupt decays with all discards effects that ANT offers. You can't make anything against the topdeck of the other player but I assume it. On the other hand, I prefer Dread of night + chain of vapor for fighting hatebears. Sometimes abrupt is not enough.

With the handicap of not having grim tutor by the moment and the fact that I feel comfortable with 7 tutors builds ( I tested prosak list too but most of time I feel like cantriping for nothing ) how you see this list ?

Best regards!

Lemnear
05-22-2013, 07:52 AM
Hi! I've been testing ANT for a while and I have some questions. First of all, I've tried the green splash for abrupt decays and some xantid swarms. Well, I don't like it at all. So I return to my URB list:

1 Ad nauseam
4 Dark ritual
4 Cabal ritual
4 Brainstorm

1 Past in flames
1 Tendrils of agony
3 Cabal therapy
4 Duress
4 Gitaxian probe
4 Ponder
4 Burning wish
3 Infernal tutor

1 Chrome mox
4 Lotus petal
4 Lion's eye Diamond

1 Badlands
1 Volcanic island
2 Underground sea
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Polluted delta
4 Scalding tarn

Side:

4 Dread of night
3 Dark confidant
2 Chain of vapor
1 Ill-Gotten gains
1 Cabal therapy
1 Pyroclasm
1 Infernal tutor
1 Empty the warrens
1 Tendrils of agony

In a near future I'll make some changes. In the maindeck -1 Burning wish +1 Infernal tutor. In the side -1 Infernal tutor +1 Grim tutor -1 Empty the warrens +1 I don't know still.

With this list I decide to lost the counterbalance matchup, at least in the paper, I use to play TES, and sometimes I lost because of not having a discard spell ( becaue of silences ), so maybe I can win some match without abrupt decays with all discards effects that ANT offers. You can't make anything against the topdeck of the other player but I assume it. On the other hand, I prefer Dread of night + chain of vapor for fighting hatebears. Sometimes abrupt is not enough.

With the handicap of not having grim tutor by the moment and the fact that I feel comfortable with 7 tutors builds ( I tested prosak list too but most of time I feel like cantriping for nothing ) how you see this list ?

Best regards!

There is a lot to question imo. How can you be "used to play TES" and dislike Swarms for the respective matchups you board them, cut Infernals to 3 or plan to cut EtW from your wishboard? None of those decisions make sense imo. Can you elaborate this (aside from winterwonderland-Wish-into-Infernal)? Why would you loose because you have a Silence over a discard Spell?

Pdingo
05-22-2013, 08:27 AM
@ plimpalm

Sry i don't like the list and your sb choices...
Burning wish allowed you a lot missplays into etw.
But when you play this way TES is a lot stronger.
1off chrome mox is really random and when you have it on hand
very bad moest of the time.

Ignore and fighting miracle only with discard after sb using is completly wrong in the meta now!
It's not enough! Decay is so good right now;)
4 dreads of night? A little bit to much only your meta is really really mav and DnT heavy..

More cantrips in ANT is the righ choicet! ANT have to be concstant with basics and cantrips
With 3-4 Bw in main it isn't...

When you have not enough tutors play 4 infernal 1 grim but don't play bw its wrong in ant.

plimplam
05-22-2013, 03:35 PM
There is a lot to question imo. How can you be "used to play TES" and dislike Swarms for the respective matchups you board them, cut Infernals to 3 or plan to cut EtW from your wishboard? None of those decisions make sense imo. Can you elaborate this (aside from winterwonderland-Wish-into-Infernal)? Why would you loose because you have a Silence over a discard Spell?

Well, the fact is that I don't dislike Swarms, I love them against S&T, merfolks and reanimator. But I don't like the random Tropical, because when you fetch for it, you lose your fetch for red or black, and, even ANT play more lands than TES that could suposse a lost match. I think that is better to play TES than adding green to ANT or TNT. and about wish into infernal i Use to make it lot of times, that's the same play when you wish into Grim Tutor. Against miracles you can loose because mayebe you have the silence, but you can make the combo. Ther's where discard shines against miracles.
About empty the warrens maybe I cut the one of the sideboard when I cut one Burning in the maindeck because of being less explosive.
To the one who think TNT is a bad choice because of burning wish see like the same tournament report where egosum ended second with ANT he lost to TNT in the finals, so It makes the same result (final) one and other version ( the LCL tournament is always 100+ players ).

Pdingo
05-23-2013, 07:11 AM
So guys here is a List that i creat (UBg AnT), maybe for the new rules after M14. The List is not Finish yet. Feel free to posting.
The good thing here is Mox Opal. The List works and i like it xD

4 Mox Opal (Make a very very good ad nauseam, that meens we don't Need a PiF)
4 Sensei's Divining Top (We Need more artifacts and the best Option is the Top, He's very good against discard to, I cut the 4 Preordain for him)
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Chrome Mox (Still 1 because it is the badest Card in the deck, but an artifact, Dont know about 2? But i feel 1 are enough)
3 Ad Nauseam (Cut the PiF and the Cabal ritual, With the Opals it's very strong, maybe we can Play only 2 and 1 Rain of filth or a second cabal therapy?)
4 Dark Ritual
1 Tendrils of Agony (We Need only 1 Kill)
4 Infernal Tutor (4 Tutors are enough)
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Duress
1 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island (Decay is very important, same with carpet of flowers!)
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs

SB: 3 Dark Confidant (Why BoB? because we Play more 0 cc spells in this list, and so he's sick)
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Bayou
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 2 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Karakas


More Ideas are welcome;)

Edit- maybe we Need a PiF? because when the Tendrils are on the Gy we lose the game anyway^^.

Greets P.dingo

egosum
05-23-2013, 07:41 AM
Warning Off-Topic:

What's relevant about M14 rules? I' m quite disconnected.

Thanks in advance,

greetings,

Iñaki.-

Rampart
05-23-2013, 08:02 AM
Warning Off-Topic:

What's relevant about M14 rules? I' m quite disconnected.

Thanks in advance,

greetings,

Iñaki.-

The two big legacy changes were the "Legend Rule" and Sideboard changes.

1. The legend rule now basically states that when you play a legendary card and there is already an existing copy in play you get to choose what card stays and what card goes to the graveyard. Also you can no longer legend rule an opponents card.

2. Sideboard is now allowed to have up to 15 cards, so after sideboard you could have a 61 card deck with a 14 card sideboard and that won't get you a game lose.

Pdingo
05-23-2013, 08:31 AM
Important is, it's the same with PWs;)

vennie
05-23-2013, 08:37 AM
Warning Off-Topic:

What's relevant about M14 rules? I' m quite disconnected.

Thanks in advance,

greetings,

Iñaki.-

Just read the next two articles and ure up 2 date

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg%2Fdaily%2Ffeature%2F248f
and
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/248e

egosum
05-23-2013, 01:59 PM
Cool, thanks!

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

Koby
05-23-2013, 02:02 PM
A good question to ponder is whether a build with 3-4 Mox Opal can make consistent mana to be worth the inclusion.

P.dingo shows an interesting list with SDT to help facilitate Metalcraft, but is this enough?

Pdingo
05-23-2013, 04:11 PM
Don't know if it's good enough, i tested today a Little bit and have to say with Top i can Play around discard and then Play a late Ad nauseam.
The Main Problem is that 3 Ad nauseam are maybe to much..But maybe we Need them for fast kills. I think about IGG against Discard match ups too. Insteat of 1 AD.

The other Thing is do we Need a PiF?
I mean in random situations, they discard the Tendrils...Can wee fix it with IGG?

feel free to Post

CabalTherapy
05-24-2013, 01:38 AM
Don't know if it's good enough, i tested today a Little bit and have to say with Top i can Play around discard and then Play a late Ad nauseam.
The Main Problem is that 3 Ad nauseam are maybe to much..But maybe we Need them for fast kills. I think about IGG against Discard match ups too. Insteat of 1 AD.

The other Thing is do we Need a PiF?
I mean in random situations, they discard the Tendrils...Can wee fix it with IGG?

feel free to Post


PiF enables the best combo move. I don't understand how this card can be mentioned in this context.
IGG feels like: "I take my Infernal and two Rituals and you get... oh.. FoW, Daze and Spell Pierce..."

ThomasDowd
05-24-2013, 03:22 AM
I imagine with a shift to opal you want a shift to AN as your main engine

May even be beneficial to move to esper and use chant effects for protection/angel's grace to draw your deck run more AN so you just draw it and kill them. Can probably cut preordains for tops.

The deck gets faster as your IMS count goes up.

The angel's grace idea may be bad. but it has been played before.

Will tinker. probably won't be good. need to crunch on numbers for metalcraft.

plimplam
05-24-2013, 07:15 AM
In the beggining will be a hype with mox opals, then, people will see that metalcraft is impossible in this deck even with 4 tops and people will come back to the list we play now.

Asthereal
05-24-2013, 07:36 AM
Mox Opal probably isn't going to cut it in ANT unless you alter your deck dramatically.
I think you need the artifact lands in order to consistently get Metalcraft pre Ad Nauseam, but the artifact lands suck in every other aspect...

Pelikanudo
05-26-2013, 08:56 AM
A good question to ponder is whether a build with 3-4 Mox Opal can make consistent mana to be worth the inclusion.

P.dingo shows an interesting list with SDT to help facilitate Metalcraft, but is this enough?

Pelikanudo
05-26-2013, 09:13 AM
A good question to ponder is whether a build with 3-4 Mox Opal can make consistent mana to be worth the inclusion.

P.dingo shows an interesting list with SDT to help facilitate Metalcraft, but is this enough?

Yes,

I've been working on a list,

I just worked on diff approaches : with Grim Tutor and TES Oriented. I also tested the DD Appeoach (moreless like the ANT approach but putting 2 DD and I.Unbound)

The fact is that A.N is much stronger and the deck needs to behaves at least in speed as TES. Just because of the need of C.Mox.

The fact the C.Mox is a bad card in here is correct but we need it also. MetalCraft and powers A.N. and speed.

I can then say that the 12 Lands configuration can work as a start

4 Seat
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Gemstone Mire
3 C.Moxen

4 Mox opal - Instead 4 Rite Of Flame

In a way 8 of our lands can behave as Or Blue Or Black, only 8 of our lands Can Prduce Both of them.
The difference between TES is taht in TES you produce with the 11 lands Blue and Black. We now play 4 Opal, therefore the difference is:

We play:
(4 U OR 4 B) + 4 U/B + 4 U/B

So I can say that the only diffference is that we play 4 additional landds to supply the Black Mana (we play 8 lands to use the p arity of B OR U)

These are the maths behind
As said I tested the Grim Tutor list and seems ok but now Im testing with Burning Approach. Seems intesresting.

I do not see Senseis in these kind of builds, at least if we base the deck in A.N.

TES Approach:

4 Gemstone Mine
4 Seat
4 Vault of Whispers

3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Mox Opal
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam


I just started to build the deck as ANT, but I don't think this is a good approach, in testing I felt like I needed more business, and the C. Ritual seemed sub optimal with no fetches.
By the other hand B.Wish is superb with all amount of storm we can produce -> PiF is wekaer also.
I've never had problems to cast B.Wish I recgnize I reduced the number of Red Sources But you have again 12 Procucers (Opal Gemstone Petal) + 3 Potential C.Mox

As start I needed to set the Tehrapy instead of SSilence to accomodate better the mana base. it also Works much better with Empty base.

Another point is the lack of consistency of ANT Approach if we discard Tendrils, thing that doesn't happens with TEs Aproach

ANT Approach:

2 U. Sea
4 Seat
4 Vault of Whispers
2 Flooded Strand

3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Mox Opal
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Ad Nauseam
2 C.Ritual
2 Grim Tutor
1 Tendrils

Pdingo
05-26-2013, 11:20 AM
Playing Artifacts land is completly wrong...
I don't like the TES list because you are a 5 colour deck and TES Need this Rainbow lands!

The Same with the ANT list. ANT Need fetchies for a good Brainstorm...2 are not enough^^^

AND why 2 Grim Tutor???

Pelikanudo
05-26-2013, 11:56 AM
Playing Artifacts land is completly wrong...
I don't like the TES list because you are a 5 colour deck and TES Need this Rainbow lands!

The Same with the ANT list. ANT Need fetchies for a good Brainstorm...2 are not enough^^^

AND why 2 Grim Tutor???

I do not like the ANT list also, that was an apporach,
however I'm feeling more and more comfortable with that TES versión.

You only need the burning almost always in the turn your going to comboing for these case 4 Gemstone 4 Mox Opal 4 Lotus Petal can be enough, if you compare to TES the B.Wish is the only slot you can understand as a business spell and as its behaviour will be costed during comboing turn.

Regarding the rest of cards blue and Black, I said its a parity concept:

1. You need to asume you will have enough artifacts to use metalcraft of opal -> then you have 4 Gemstone 4 (Vault OR Seat) 4 Mox opal:
2. if you compare this with TES is as exact the same:

TES Manabase:
4 Gemstone
2 COBrass
3 Fetches
2 U.Sea
1 V.Island

Let's call the deck TNT 2.0 - Manabase
4Gemstone
4Mox Opal
4Vault OR 4 Seat.

I switched Silence for C.Therapy.
This is completely posible.
we both even play 3 C.Moxes.


I'm looking now at the Side:
I've been thinking in adding Wheel Of Fate again...to side.

The amount of artifacts we play now is: 23, more than 1/3rd of the deck, we also play Gitaxian, now a Fundamental card in the deck and can act as a 0.5 of Artifact so I can say we play almost half of the deck of mana artifact.

Testing has been done.
Hope the explanation serves.

Pdingo
05-26-2013, 12:48 PM
Silence is one of the best parts of TES.
With cutting Rainbow lands and Rite of flame you lose the fast Thing for TES.
For playing Artifacts Land, you lose the concistant thing of ANT.

that seems very bad.

Mox Opal is not better with the Lands. You Need 3 Artifacts and you haven't them all the time..

Rite of Flame give you +2 or more red mana. Mox Opal not...
Rite of Flame allowed you to Play 4 BW.
BW whitout rite of flame seems bad...that meens you lose again concistants.

Pelikanudo
05-26-2013, 12:57 PM
Silence is one of the best parts of TES.
With cutting Rainbow lands and Rite of flame you lose the fast Thing for TES.
For playing Artifacts Land, you lose the concistant thing of ANT.

that seems very bad.

Mox Opal is not better with the Lands. You Need 3 Artifacts and you haven't them all the time..

Rite of Flame give you +2 or more red mana. Mox Opal not...
Rite of Flame allowed you to Play 4 BW.
BW whitout rite of flame seems bad...that meens you lose again concistants.

cutting RoF does not mean you can make the deck slower, it is backwards.

I put Mox Opal instead of RoF, and in first turns and unless you have 2 in hand 1 Mox opal will be +1 exact as equal as RoF, the difference is that:
- You need metalcraft - assumed.
- M.Opal provides mana of whatever color
- M.Opal costs 0

a Hand like:
Opal, LED, I.Tutor, Seat, D.Ritual, Brainstorm, Braintorm.

will be always quicker than if you substitute Opal by RoF.

Also, Silence is good but Therapy is not bad either...
Simple.

defector
05-26-2013, 01:22 PM
I'm coming back to ANT after a long time and am interested in the current sb perspective. This is what I am running right now and I don't really like it.

Sidebaord:
Abrupt Decay X4
Carpet of Flowers X3
Pyroclasm X3
Chain of Vapor X3
Past in Flames X1
Empty the Warrens X1

I bring the AD in vs CB, I bring the Carpets in vs BUG. I use the Pyroclams vs Thalia/Hate bears. Chain kind of goes in by default in most game 2. 1 PIF for control and the ETW if I am nervous about needing a second win con. My testing has been limited though as I just picked up teh deck again, can I get some general insights on the boards and mu analayis that people are looking at these days?

Thanks!
defector

Pdingo
05-26-2013, 01:34 PM
Carpets side in against BUG are wrong because they have other Options instead of Islands.
Side it in only against RUG and maybe Miracle because they Need blue against you.

I think you have to much pernament hate..you can probably cut the 1-3 clasm and 1 chain of vapor for Cards like Dark confidant and Ignorant Bliss against discard.
You don't Need a Second PiF...

My current SB:
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Bayou
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Ignorant Bliss
1 Karakas
1 Massacre
1 Dread of Night
1 Cabal Therapy

Asthereal
05-27-2013, 04:21 AM
About the Mox Opal ideas:
I too think we should play either 4x Seat or 4x Vault. 4x Seat could work in ANT, 4x Vault could work in TES (but then we need to cut a few cantrips, because we lose the ability to consistently cast them). Since the cantrips make TES the dangerous beast it is, that seems bad. I have been tinkering with two approaches now: one ANTish list and one sort of Belcherless Storm.

ANTish

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Opal
2 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual /18

4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony /21

4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy /7

4 Seat of the Synod
4 Underground Sea
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest /14

Cantripless Storm

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Opal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual.
4 Rite of Flame /24

4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
2 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens /18

4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize /6

4 Vault of Whispers
3 Badlands
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta /12

This last one with some additional discard on side to battle blue decks.
I have to add that I don't believe in either list so far, but they deserve more testing.

Pelikanudo
05-27-2013, 12:39 PM
@Asthereal:

I really do think we should need to use both Vault and Seat.
The concept of parity is perfectly suitable with 12 lands (8 of them Artifact which can produce U or B) + Opal which acts as 4 Underground,

The unique problem is that you will need to choose to play Vault OR Seat, which is more difficult as tree decisión.
But assuming you'll have most of the times mana from Mox opal we are building a great deck.

In testing, I was really surprised with the results, it is even quicker than TES and has the same protection and is more reliable to win Post A.N.

I really find the deck quite difficult to play as the Decission tree is bigger, you'll need to evaluate if playing seat OR vault, have in mind if playing down petal to gain mana from opal, etc.

Edit: The base for me is ok as I made it, maybe I could add 1 A-N instead of Empty but not sure.
The side has been changing from the Testing moment, but looks like:
1 Reprocess
1 D.Returns
1 IGG
***No PiF
1 Eye of nowhere
1 Empty
...
@Bahamut, if you are by there could you give us your opinión?

DarkJester
05-27-2013, 03:19 PM
Sorry guys, but do you really think a situational mana-source (pre-ad nauseam) which nets you +1 mana at it's best (not even sure) is worth it to rape your mana base... I can't understand what I am reading here.

Pdingo
05-27-2013, 03:54 PM
@DarkJester
Completly agree, first it was intresting to test a list like this.
But i have to say it's just bad.
Cabal ritual are a lot stronger and preordrain are a lot more important.
Cutting basic lands for artifact lands seems completly wrong.

defector
05-28-2013, 04:48 PM
@Pdingo: Thanks for the advice, ill test some of those changes!

Jay_Gatz
06-03-2013, 03:29 PM
Got 17th in baltimore with this burning wish version.

4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Infernal Tutor
3 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames


4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
1 Ad Nauseam

4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp

SB:
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 Ill-Gotten Games
1 Thoughtseize
1 Pyroclasm
1 Shattering Spree
3 Dark Confidant
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor

Normally I would have played TES but I was expecting a fair bit of Esper and Shardless BUG so I wanted to play ANT with Bobs. Deck performed very well, my losses probably could have been avoided with better mulligans and tighter play.

MTG Junkie
06-03-2013, 10:29 PM
Congratulations!
Love to see Wish versions putting up awesome results.


Did you ever use that Shattering Spree? I play EchoingRuin in that slot. Never liked Meltdown. Never try edSpree in ANT.

Lejay
06-03-2013, 11:38 PM
I'm afraid we don't have the same definition of an awesome result.

Jay_Gatz
06-04-2013, 12:04 AM
I only wanted to post the list because this thread has been dead. Shattering Spree interacts better with counterspells, chalice and trinisphere, not to mention multiple pieces of hate at once.

egosum
06-04-2013, 07:14 AM
Sorry but shattering spree is just too optimistic... You are running very few red sources. And investing petals in using spree is not the best idea. The main match ups where you want spree normally run wastelands (i.e. against decks running trinisphere, chalice of the void, being maybe the most relevance), this means that you need to expose one of your 2 non basic red lands in order to play BW, giving the chance to wasteland it. This results in being very difficult to play the replicate of the spree. For thismatter Meltdown seems simply better for ANT build if you want a wish target that can deal with artifacts.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

Jay_Gatz
06-04-2013, 11:18 AM
Paying 4 mana to kill a trinisphereis not really ideal, or 4 mana to kill a thorn of amethyst. Against decks with 3balls I will gladly crack an LED to spree more things. Also meltdown doesn't come in foil.

egosum
06-06-2013, 11:56 AM
Also meltdown doesn't come in foil...

...period.

Iñaki.-

Antonius
06-07-2013, 02:26 PM
Just pointing out that Chain of vapor + 0cc permanents was always one of my favorite storm engines. That might be relevant with this most recent improvement to Mox opal.

Lemnear
06-08-2013, 08:55 AM
Fuck Chain of Vapor in a Mox Opal list.

Repeal + Mox Opal is a free cantrip. Most lists with artifact Lands and Opal have 3+ mana turn 2 so you can eot bounce crap like hatebears, counterbalance and go off. Opal lists should play Repeal and Probe for insane PIF's

Pdingo
06-09-2013, 02:41 AM
Fuck Mox opal?l lol

Lemnear
06-09-2013, 03:29 AM
Fuck Mox opal?l lol

Or this way round ^^

Wasn't able to break Opal even with Grim Monolith. That crap all turns Storm into Belcher which isn't desireable