[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

[phazonmutant]

Because it fills the roles of all those cards combined, potentially freeing up sideboard space for stuff like graveyard hate, Needles, Ignorant Bliss, etc.

I've been liking Teferi's Realm so far. A lands player was incredibly confused, then I won.

That plus Carsten's Lim-Dul's Vault list is enough to get me to pick up ANT again. I just love those "terrible" old cards too much.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I've been liking Teferi's Realm so far. A lands player was incredibly confused, then I won.

That plus Carsten's Lim-Dul's Vault list is enough to get me to pick up ANT again. I just love those "terrible" old cards too much.

How would you build your sb? I like Pyroclasm/Virtue's Ruin because it gets rid of the creatures immediatelly, and sometimes it is important to not being hit by another attack. Otoh, Teferi's Realm may be played turn3 without thinking and just annoy the opposing player for several turns.
Would you sb it against control for whatever the reason, e.g. to make it act like a pseudo-Geddon? I know that it sucks to not have lands, but we may start the combo with Petals and a land drop, while the opponent (unless he uses manarocks/dorks) sits and stares; well, except for FoW, of course.

[Tombstalker]

Spent the last few days shaking the dust off my storm deck, along the way I threw 2 snapcasters and 2 CoV in the main in lieu of preordain and they have been surprisingly good often mvps. I actually killed a burn player and reanimator with snapcaster beat down.

Tried lim-duls vault again too but I just can't make the card function how I'd like. It just seems to sit there blank or encourage me to wait an additional turn just to use it. Feels like a worse brainstorm more than a 2cc vampiric tutor. What am I missing here?

SCM has me thinking of trying a single entomb again. It should in theory function like a hellbent IT with a SCM in hand or PiF in hand or grave.

[Lemnear]

Spent the last few days shaking the dust off my storm deck, along the way I threw 2 snapcasters and 2 CoV in the main in lieu of preordain and they have been surprisingly good often mvps. I actually killed a burn player and reanimator with snapcaster beat down.

Tried lim-duls vault again too but I just can't make the card function how I'd like. It just seems to sit there blank or encourage me to wait an additional turn just to use it. Feels like a worse brainstorm more than a 2cc vampiric tutor. What am I missing here?

SCM has me thinking of trying a single entomb again. It should in theory function like a hellbent IT with a SCM in hand or PiF in hand or grave.

Excuse me? A UB topdeck Tutor is too bad for you, but durdling with CoV + Snapcaster Mages flashbacking BS for a mere 3 mana are MVP's? You consider Entomb + Snapcaster, a 2-card-1UB interaction better than LDV, doing the same or one less card and mana?

You missed a lot, A LOT

[phazonmutant]

How would you build your sb? I like Pyroclasm/Virtue's Ruin because it gets rid of the creatures immediatelly, and sometimes it is important to not being hit by another attack. Otoh, Teferi's Realm may be played turn3 without thinking and just annoy the opposing player for several turns.
Would you sb it against control for whatever the reason, e.g. to make it act like a pseudo-Geddon? I know that it sucks to not have lands, but we may start the combo with Petals and a land drop, while the opponent (unless he uses manarocks/dorks) sits and stares; well, except for FoW, of course.

It's been a long time since I've built an ANT sideboard, but here's my starting point. I have Carsten's manabase - 8 fetch, 2 basics, 2 Sea, 1 Volc, 1 Badlands, 1 Trop main - Empty, and no Ad Nauseam, 6 discards. Also 1 Chain of Vapor main.

SB:
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Lotus Petal
1 Chain of Vapor
3 Teferi's Realm
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Cabal Therapy
2 flex slots - currently Disfigure, but maybe should be Surgical.

Really not sure how I feel about the Badlands. I'm almost tempted to run a Gemstone Mine in its place.

If Teferi's Realm is good, it's because it can come in against creatures, Chalice, and control. I'd definitely board it in against miracles because they often have both Counterbalance and hate bears.

[Tombstalker]

Excuse me? A UB topdeck Tutor is too bad for you, but durdling with CoV + Snapcaster Mages flashbacking BS for a mere 3 mana are MVP's? You consider Entomb + Snapcaster, a 2-card-1UB interaction better than LDV, doing the same or one less card and mana?

You missed a lot, A LOT
I knew id regret those words.. not that entomb is great in fact it probably sucks in storm but it was just an idea.
Snaps otoh is really quite good especially since I dont/wont own grim tutors and im trying a list without BWs that im used to.
Maybe I need to work with LDV longer idk, or then again maybe theres a reason its not already part of the maindeck same with SCM and CoV none are new tech.

[Megadeus]

Watching the ANT player the in the semi and the finals hurt. Some nice punts though

[Deviruchi]

It looks like we should have an ANT player as a winner. Unfortunately he played LED before rituals which gave his opponent a chance to Wear that LED. This blowout made him forget about SP trigger. So close.

[ActionJunkie]

It looks like we should have an ANT player as a winner. Unfortunately he played LED before rituals which gave his opponent a chance to Wear that LED. This blowout made him forget about SP trigger. So close.

How was this played wrong - active player can keep Priority or so I thought? So why couldn't he cast spells/activate LED before passing Priority?

Please forgive my ignorance as I'm not experienced with ANT but was confused what went wrong there?

[Fatal]

Sure you still keep priority but when you cast next spell you give priority for response for that spell its all ok when you cast -> rituals, LED, IT bacause you don't give response window between LED and IT. When you cast in wrong order -> LED, Rituals, IT you give priority with LED on table (for response for Rituals) before casting IT so you can lose LED before IT goes on stack - very stupid mistake.

[ActionJunkie]

Sure you still keep priority but when you cast next spell you give priority for response for that spell its all ok when you cast -> rituals, LED, IT bacause you don't give response window between LED and IT. When you cast in wrong order -> LED, Rituals, IT you give priority with LED on table (for response for Rituals) before casting IT so you can lose LED before IT goes on stack - very stupid mistake.

Oh, duh, because IT isn't an Instant. I see. Need to familiarize myself more with ANT, I suppose.

[bondfan]

Hey Jake here from the scg. I know...I'm going to get crap about this till the end of time. The fact that there was a split in the finals and that the only food I've had were two pieces of beef jerky and a fun sized snicker bar made me play pretty loose. I'll write a report explaining my choices...etc. For some reason thesource blocks me on my laptop but not my phone.

[Megadeus]

One big question I have is, vs Reanimator. The turn before you Tendrils him for 8, you attack with Xantid swarm. You have Gemstone Mine, Karakas and LED on the board and haven't made your land drop. You ponder seeing another LED. You had IT in hand. Why did you not just take the LED, drop a land and IT into tendrils for the kill that turn? The next turn he cast SNT and ate your 2 swarms with Norn

[Lemnear]

Hey Jake here from the scg. I know...I'm going to get crap about this till the end of time. The fact that there was a split in the finals and that the only food I've had were two pieces of beef jerky and a fun sized snicker bar made me play pretty loose. I'll write a report explaining my choices...etc. For some reason thesource blocks me on my laptop but not my phone.

Why would you get crap about that? You'd played a mentally draining combo deck for hours, did not eat/Drink well/enough and fatigue won in the end. Not a big deal

[Star|Scream]

Hey Jake here from the scg. I know...I'm going to get crap about this till the end of time. The fact that there was a split in the finals and that the only food I've had were two pieces of beef jerky and a fun sized snicker bar made me play pretty loose. I'll write a report explaining my choices...etc. For some reason thesource blocks me on my laptop but not my phone.

First off, congrats!

I really wouldn't worry about it because at least you made it all the way to the finals and you already had the split determined.

What I am still fuzzy about is all these gemstone mines in the decklists.

[bondfan]

Yes my friend mentioned the led play afterwords. I must have overlooked it. He also questioned me on putting the swarm into play. I put it into play because I was playing around angel your swarm beat you down with angel.

I play two mines because my friends and I concluded two mines are better than two trops. It is a little worse because I play pact, so I don't really need extra green sources. It's up for debate.

[Megadeus]

Fair. Like has been said, it was after a long day and a split. I personally like the gemstone mines. Producing every color you could ever need is great and you run enough lands that you usually don't have to rely on only then gemstone

[metamet]

Jake (Bondfan) asked me to post his tournament report since he kept receiving a 403 error. I played him in round four with Food Chain (spoiler). In case you were wondering, I ended up going 6-3.

So here it is!

~~~~

SCG Minneapolis Legacy 2013-2nd

This report is all from memory so some parts might be incorrect/fuzzy.

I’ve been playing ANT for a while now and I really enjoy the deck. I played TES for a bit but lost many games to variance. (Bricking from 17 in the mirror while my opponent kills me from 12 with a non-foil deck) Dylan Streater (Dark Ritual on the Source) and Alex Olson (Cuthberthecat on the source) convinced me to play ANT and I have been happy with the deck.

I wasn’t planning on coming to the tournament. My friends actually convinced me to go to Wisconsin Dells for this weekend before I go back to school. But things happened, people couldn’t make it and the weather didn’t look good. I scrubbed out at Standard at 2-2. I was shipped a Jund deck and had no clue what I was doing. I was originally going to play Hexproof and hope to mise but I couldn’t find Voices. After 0-2ing the Legacy Challenge losing to UWR Delver and to Shardless BUG after my Duress Vampiric tutored a Force of Will for him. Driving back, I got ready for tomorrow.

I play Slaughter Pact because I really hate boarding in Tropical Island against Wasteland decks. Pact is free which makes your combo turn and your Ad Nausem much better.

The Gemstone Mines I am on the fence about. I’ve debated this with my friends and we agreed that 2 Gemstone Mines are better than two Tropical Islands. It is also nice that it can randomly produce red.

I don’t play Bob because I feel that is not what you want to be doing. I’ve tried him before and have been unimpressed. He shines in the mirror but I am not willing to give up 3+ Sb slots for that.

Round 1-Death and Taxes

G1-My opponent told me he was new to legacy and we talked/joked for a bit. He shows me Thalia and Plains while shuffling. He goes turn 1 Vial go. I cantrip for a few turns while he doesn’t play hate bears. I finally probe, seeing the coast is clear with his vial on 2 PIF him out.

SB: +2 Slaughter Pact +2 Chain of Vapor +1 Karakas. -4 Preordain -1 Duress.

G2-I keep a Gemstone Mine, cantrips and therapy hand hoping to hit land off my 3 cantrips. He goes T1 plains go. I blind Therapy him for Thalia and hit seeing a Mother of Runes and a Wasteland. Confused at why he didn’t play the mother and expecting to get wasted I pass the turn. He looks quite tilted and goes Horizon Canopy go. I Ponder, shuffle, brick. Pass. He cracks canopy EOT and plays NOT wasteland go. I rip a land off the top, cantrip for two more turns and kill him with Ad Nauseam.

1-0 (2-0)

Round 2-RUG Delver

G1-My opponent is also fairly new to legacy. His first turn play is Goose go in which I breathe a sigh of relief. I am able to sculpt and hit land drops while he 1’s me each turn. I finally probe, duress then PiF him out.

SB: +1 Empty the Warrens +1 Tropical Island. -2 Gitaxian Probe.

G2-He told me he was shipped the deck so I expect a stock list with Rough/Tumble. However I put him on not knowing to side these in and go for an Empty plan. My opener has Empty lands and cantrips. Snap keep. He goes T1 Goose so I know my chances this game are high. I hardcast Probe and see Bolt Bolt Fire/Ice Stifle Stifle. I Duress his Fire/Ice and therapy his stifles while he burns me down to 13. I empty for 12, flashback therapy on Goyf and miss. He draws Brainstorm, bricks and dies to my goblins.

2-0 (4-0)

Round 3-Jund

G1-I know my opponent is on Jund and open with a T2 kill on the play. Land pass and I pray he goes t1 Deathrite. He does precisely that and I kill him with Ad Nauseam.

SB: +1 Duress -1 Gitaxian Probe.

G2-He goes T1 Fetch Deathrite go while I keep a hand of Duress+Cantrips. I Duress him and see Chains of Mephistopheles and Liliana. I am forced to take Chains. He slams T2 lily and I pitch a cantrip. This continues for 2 turns with him not hitting any more discard or pressure and me drawing rituals. On the final turn before Lily goes ultimate/I have no hand I cantrip into an Infernal and Ad Nauseam him out.

3-0 (6-0)

Round 4-Food Chain

G1-I’m playing my friend Tyler (metamet) who goes to the same shop as me. I expect him to be on Food Chain combo. He mulligans to 5 while I disrupt him with discard while he is stuck on 1 land Hierarch. I finally probe and seeing the coast is clear PiF him.

SB: +1 Duress +2 Chain of Vapor -3 Preordain.

G2-This game is a little fuzzy. All I remember is getting Thoughtseized and Cliqued. On the final turn I have two Infernal LED and a Cabal Ritual. I know he has Force. I am forced to bait him with an infernal. He tanks for a while. He is a good player so he talks through the possible motions I could do and lets it resolve. I lose.

G3-I turn one Ponder, T2 Duress him seeing 2x Brainstorm Misdirection, Food Chain, Thoughtseize land. I take Misdirection then Therapy his Brainstorms. He discards my tutor but the therapy sets him back. We go draw go while I brick on business and he hits me for 1 with Noble Hierarch each turn with a Food Chain in play. Eventually he goes 4 lands, doesn’t attack with Hierarch go. I hit tutor but pass. He plays Fierce Empath, tutors for Emrakul and passes. I rip Duress and see force but no blue card and proceed to PiF him out. He tells me after he sided out his 1 Aethersnipe which would have won him the game with an Empath/Athersnipe/Griselbrand trick.

4-0 (8-1)

Round 5-Merfolk

G1-My opponent is also new to legacy and this is his first big legacy tournament. I ask him if he is running hot and he tells me he’s running extremely hot. I can’t win. I keep a cantrip heavy hand with an Ad Nauseam. Mutavault Vial go. I cantrip and he hits me for 2. I cantrip while he EOT vials in a curse. He plays a lord and suddenly I am on fast clock. I bait a couple Cursecatchers but I am forced to cast Ad Nauseam from 9 life with a land drop remaining. I hit 1 Lotus Petal but brick on tutor and hit only fetch lands at 1 life. I should have kept going but after I looked at the top card and it was a 1 drop.

SB: +3 Xantid Swarm +1 Tropical island. -4 Gitaxian Probe.

G2-My opening 7 is 3 discard spells 3 petals Gemstone mine. Ship. 6 card no lander. Ship. 5 cards with 2 Xantid Swarms but no green source. My opponent goes Curse go while I struggle to find lands. He forces a Xantid Swarm pitching a Cursecatcher and only has lands at this point (I Duressed him). He peels a lord and shortens the clock by one turn. I am forced to cast Ad Nausem with 0 floating and he promptly Cursecatchers it.

4-1 (8-3)

Round 6-Jund

G1-My opponent looks very serious but after a while I manage to get him to talk/joke around. I don’t really remember the details but he Thoughtseized me once hitting a Tutor. I eventually cantrip into another and kill him with PiF.

SB: +1 Duress -1 Gitaxian Probe.

G2: He goes T1 fetch Deathrite pass. I blind hit his Liliana with therapy and pass. On T3 he casts Deathrite pass, leaving up his first one with a Badlands. I am forced to Ad Nausem as PiF is shut off. I manage to hit my 3 remaining petals and the natural Tendrils. Sometimes you run hot. (See next round).

5-1 (10-3)

Round 7-Omnitell

G1-He cantrips for the first couple of turns while I have the T2 Ad Nauseam. I hold off because he kept both ponders. He kills me t3 and tells me he didn’t have the force. I need to be more updated on decklists.

SB: +3 Xantid Swarm +1 duress +2 Chain of Vapor +1 Tropical island -4 Preordain -1 island -2 gitaxian probe.

G2-After this game I felt I should buy a lottery ticket. I mull all the way down to 4 keeping swarm swarm fetch ponder. He opens with a Leyline of sanctity. I play swarm pass. He Ponders passes. I draw Duress and Ponder keeping a Chain of Vapor on top. He Ponders passes. I draw chain and pass. He casts Show and Tell into Dream Halls into Enter the Infinite. I chain the Dream Halls in response and he doesn’t have the force. He passes. I really don’t know what happened next but I remember him discarding down to hand size pitching an Emrakul to shuffle his deck. All my friends told me he could have easily killed me but maybe I was forgetting something. He passes the turn. Knowing I’m dead on his next turn, I need to hit my last Chain of Vapor to be able to Duress him. I Ponder, shuffle, Chain of freaking vapor. Bounce, Duress him taking his Show and Tell leaving him with Omniscience+Dream Halls+countermagic. We play draw go for 2 turns while he bricks and I hit 2 Cabal Rituals. On the 3rd turn I hit my Ad Nauseam and proceed to kill him. He told me if he kept a Cunning Wish, he would have been able to Trickbind the swarm and not die.

I felt my opponent didn’t realize he could cast Enter the Infinite and put a card back on top. I knew he had Emrakul because he discarded it. I think he thought if he casted it, he would deck himself which is defiantly not the case.

G3-Obviously after what happened G2 he mulls down to 6 with no Leyline and a clunky hand. I have the kill with Swarm protection on T3.

6-1 (12-4)

Round 8-RUG delver.

G1-My opponent looks like a serious PTQ Grinder who would call you on just about anything. We are at a fake feature match table. I know he is on RUG and I saw him talking to my last round opponent so I assume he knows I’m on storm. I blind hit his force and he doesn’t have t1 Delver. After a while I know his hand is Daze, Waste, Ponder. On his turn, he attacks me with Goose and plays Ponder. He keeps and plays a Wasteland off the top. I know his exact hand now and kill him on my turn with PiF.

SB: +1 Empty the Warrens +1 Tropical island

G2-Again he has t1 Goose instead of Delver which gives me infinite time. I blind hit two forces which leaves him with a Daze revealed off a Delver. On my turn I Therapy him. He has daze and unknown. I name Flusterstorm and he has a force. I’m not sure if this was correct but probably not. I have an EOT Ad Nauseam at 6 life and if he counters that, I can PiF him out guaranteed. He attacks me down to 6 plays land and I cast EOT Ad Nauseam. He thinks for a while and forces it. I kill him with PiF on my turn.

7-1 (14-4)

Round 9-Goblins

ID

7-1-1

Quarterfinals-Burning ANT.

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/quarterfinals_alex_olson_vs_ja.html
(http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/quarterfinals_alex_olson_vs_ja.html)
G1-Alex Olson is a good friend of mine so this match was very casual. We had quite the crowd and joked around who wouldn’t want to see the storm mirror. He is on the play and we tear our hands to shreds. We both end up in top deck mode and I hit infernal tutor the turn before he draws into brainstorm into the kill.

SB:+1 Duress -1 Preordain

G2-I open with Past in Flames in hand which is the nuts in the mirror. We both therapy/duress each other but I have Past in Flames so I end up winning. After the match, Glenn Jones pointed out it is probably beneficial to be on the draw in this matchup which I somewhat agree with.

Semifinals-Reanimator

G1-I probe him and see SnT, Reanimate Griselbrand. I ponder and pass. He casts careful study and bins Griselbrand. I duress his Reanimate and kill him a few turns later.

SB: +3 Xantid Swarm +2 Chain of Vapor +1 Karakas +1 duress +1 Tropical Island. -1 Island -4 Preordain. I think I took out some number of Therapys and Gitaxian probes also. I have to check the video which is not up currently.

G2-He goes careful study bins two fatties go. I am forced to T1 brainstorm in hopes to hit Petal+Discard and brick. He gets T2 Griselbrand and passes. I take hit down to 10 after he reanimates Elesh Norn. I attempt to Chain of Vapor Griselbrand and he Flusterstorms. I then try to go off but he has the force.

G3-I keep a Xantid, Xantid, LED, Karaks, cantrips hand with karakas as the only land. I go LED Karakas pass. I probably should have held on to the Karakas but I was Thoughtseized so it didn’t matter. The karakas slows him down and he is forced to entomb an Angel of despair with no reanimation spell. Later he casts Show and tell in which I slam Xantid. He puts Griselbrand into play and passes. I bounce griselbrand EOT and he draws 7 and has to discard.

I miss the kill next turn in which I Ponder into a 2nd LED with him at 9 life while I have two mana open for the infernal tutor in my hand. He casts brainstorm into show and tell and I debate whether to put in my 2nd Xantid swarm. I end up putting it in because he could potentially angel of despair, kill Xantid and beat me down. He ends up having Elesh Norn and eats my guys. I bounce EOT and try to go off, saving one LED while pitching a PIF. He lets infernal tutor resolve and I grab Tendrils for 4 copies with him at 8 life. He forces to stay at one life and then concedes to me. I am shocked. I actually cannot kill him and he has 1 surgical in his deck in which he can blow me out with. I guess that’s what 11+ rounds do to you. (see: next round).

Finals-Goblins (Thalia Maindeck)

We agree to split finals so it is very casual. I am at this point on almost 15 hours with little food.

G1-I promptly Turn 2 him with Ad Nausem from 17 while he T1 Tarfires me. Yep.

G2-At this point I am extremely hungry having only eaten two pieces of beef jerky and a fun sized snickers bar. We agreed to split so I really relaxed and we joke around. I have the win in hand but punt two ways. Either way, it was extremely funny.

G3-Obviously Karma comes back to bite me and I keep a petal ponder hand on 6. Why not. I hit island, ponder again and pass after shuffling off ponder. He goes lackey pass and I blind hit his Thalia that he ripped. I brick and it comes to if I can hit my lone Ad Nausem. I hit 2 ponder and after drawing Slaughter Pact, that was it.

My friend Alex Johnson compared my G2 to ice skating on a pond and falling into a hole I could see coming, then after getting out, falling back into the exact same hole. Can’t catch a break.

Overall, it was a really fun experience and a good way to end my summer before classes. 2 of my friends made top 8, Alex Olson and Dana Drew so congrats to them. I’ll never forget to pay for a Slaughter Pact again…

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Congrats and thanks for the report!

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

Thought this should probably be visible in here, too, as it seems like the place people would go if wanting to pick up the deck:

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26673_Storm-Training-Regimen.html

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Thought this should probably be visible in here, too, as it seems like the place people would go if wanting to pick up the deck:

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26673_Storm-Training-Regimen.html


A good way to get used to these lines is to put two lands into play as well as a Duress, two cantrips, and a fetchland into the graveyard. Once you've done this, draw six or seven cards and try to figure out if there is some way to win. Meticulously check if there is any order to cast your spells in to make the kill happen (assume this is turn 3 so you get to play another land). You don't have to do this a ton of times, just enough to feel comfortable with the basic winning lines the deck provides.
:smile: Good idea, I think that every starting Stormer should try this. It's better than real goldfish, because you end with a "pre-constructed hand" that doesn't lack mana, already reched one half of threshold and goldfisher may pretend he knows all the info about opponents hand.

I liked the article.

PS: Just a small note: I¨d avoid a usual storm jargon. We all know what this phrase means:
"What you do is Brainstorm your business spell back on top of your deck, put the cantrip on the stack, and in response crack the Lion's Eye Diamond(s)",
but I'm afraid that a new player will mistake cantrip for BS instead of GP and either will shake his head in misunderstanding, or outrgiht sac LEDs in response to BS.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I just found a mistake in Necro-Vault article:

Assuming we see an Infernal Tutor in pile A but not the accelerator we need, we put Infernal Tutor into the bottom three cards of that pile when placing them under our library. If we hit a Cabal Ritual or Lion's Eye Diamond among the next five cards, we can put those into the top two when pushing that pile, ensuring we'll hit the combination we need once we reach the bottom of our original library with Lim-Dul's Vault. Pretty sweet, huh?
Yep, pretty sweet, but I wouldn't be doing it in sanctioned tournament... :tongue:

"Look at the top five cards of your library. As many times as you choose, you may pay 1 life, put those cards on the bottom of your library in any order, then look at the top five cards of your library. Then shuffle your library and put the last cards you looked at this way on top of it in any order."

Guess where's the trouble.
:wink:

[thefringthing]

That works fine. You go through the whole deck until you get back to those five you set up, then shuffle the rest and keep the five that have the Tutor and the ritual/LED.

[JamieW89]

I just found a mistake in Necro-Vault article:

Yep, pretty sweet, but I wouldn't be doing it in sanctioned tournament... :tongue:

"Look at the top five cards of your library. As many times as you choose, you may pay 1 life, put those cards on the bottom of your library in any order, then look at the top five cards of your library. Then shuffle your library and put the last cards you looked at this way on top of it in any order."

Guess where's the trouble.
:wink:

I'm fairly sure what he said works. As far as I know you only shuffle after you find a pile you want to keep, not after every 5 cards you see.

Edit: Someone was faster.

[Asgar]

The shuffling happens when you Chose your pile, the wording would say shuffle the cards in your library and Look St the Top 5 cards.. If it would be different.

Edit: 3rd

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Oh, sry! :frown:
When I first read the article, I did understood it right. But then I looked through it again and something made me think that it was meant like "make a top-five pile, then stack the rest of your library". (That wouldn't work, of course.) But it is possible and legal to make one five-cards pile from the two other piles... :cool:

[apistat_commander]

So I like the cantrip heavy lists (I did play Spiral Tide for a long time) but I hate Gemstone Mine. Here is where I am at with my manabase:

4x Polluted Delta
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Bloodstained Mire
2x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island
1x Tropical Island
2x Island
1x Swamp

Plus an additional Bayou in the board. I prefer the Misty/Bloodstained split so that I have additional ways of fetching a basic swamp, considering how much access I already have to blue. Mire doesn't grab Trop but it can get Bayou post-board (which is really the only time I want it anyway). What are other people running? Is Gemstone really superior to this configuration?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

...manabase...
What are other people running? Is Gemstone really superior to this configuration?

4x Delta
3x Tarn
2x Mire
2x USea
1x Volc
1x Badlands
1x Trop
1x Bayou

I'm fearless.

I dislike Gemstone: you can't fetch it so the fact that it gives any color is often irrelevant as the land sits somewhere in your library. But I haven't tested it.

[phazonmutant]

4x Delta
3x Tarn
2x Mire
2x USea
1x Volc
1x Badlands
1x Trop
1x Bayou

I'm fearless.

I dislike Gemstone: you can't fetch it so the fact that it gives any color is often irrelevant as the land sits somewhere in your library. But I haven't tested it.

Damn. So what was that about TES having a worse manabase?

apistat_commander - I'm pretty sure you never want more than 1 black fetch at most. If you're expecting to spend the first 2-3 turns cantripping, you need multiple blue sources. Black should be taken care of by rituals once you go off, so you really don't need that much black early. It also helps your manabase to run more fetches that find all the duals.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Damn. So what was that about TES having a worse manabase?

apistat_commander - I'm pretty sure you never want more than 1 black fetch at most. If you're expecting to spend the first 2-3 turns cantripping, you need multiple blue sources. Black should be taken care of by rituals once you go off, so you really don't need that much black early. It also helps your manabase to run more fetches that find all the duals.

TES is a worse deck in the first place.


Basics are overrated. Crippling your manabase with them won't help you any way.
Look, we win on turn 3-5 after a setup done on turns 1-2. (Subtract "1" from these numbers for supa-dupa hands and/or helpless opponents.) Everyone that tries to Waste my lands on turn 1-2 instead of building his own position is asking for a serious trouble, except for the limited times when I draw (preferably non-LP) one-lander and my many cantrips don't send me another land. Even then I may win, because less lands might just as well mean more DRits/LEDs/Ponders, anything.
Also, having that one (and sometimes even two) sb slots dedicated to lands is not a thing I wish to do.
I may cut one fetch and add an Island to have a possiblity to play my cantrips and laugh at Waste, but as I'm lazy to look for my favourite Chinese Odyssey Island, I'm fine with this setting. In fact, I'll take it to our lgs on Thu and lets see what happens.

[Lemnear]

4x Delta
3x Tarn
2x Mire
2x USea
1x Volc
1x Badlands
1x Trop
1x Bayou

I'm fearless.

I dislike Gemstone: you can't fetch it so the fact that it gives any color is often irrelevant as the land sits somewhere in your library. But I haven't tested it.


Damn. So what was that about TES having a worse manabase?


TES is a worse deck in the first place.

Hilarious. You present a manabase with Badlands and Bayou which won't even help you to work towards a win with cantrips, have not tested it properly before, but comment it being superior to Rainbow lands?

How is TES a bad deck in the face of disability to cantrip/t.hold into a win with Bayou/Badlands?

I'm curious how you can sling so many bold phrases without any reasoning or arguments to support a wacky manabase (like suddenly jump off the "ANT has a more resistant manabase than TES" boat and "announce that Basics and such are overrated")?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Hilarious. You present a manabase with Badlands and Bayou which won't even help you to work towards a win with cantrips, have not tested it properly before, but comment it being superior to Rainbow lands?
You're right, Swamp is better for cantrips. Also, you may tap it to either play Xantid Swarm or pay the :r: in PiF cost.
I played ANT nigh exclusively for about eighteen months and only few weeks ago switched back to RUG. I don't remember the last time basics helped me in a significant way.



How is TES a bad deck in the face of disability to cantrip/t.hold into a win with Bayou/Badlands?
TES is worse deck because it plays Burning Wish and very few shuffle effects for BS; it has nothing to do with rainbow lands.



I'm curious how you can sling so many bold phrases without any reasoning or arguments to support a wacky manabase (like suddenly jump off the "ANT has a more resistant manabase than TES" boat and "announce that Basics and such are overrated")?
I don't need to jump out of the boat, as I never sit in it. Both TES and ANT have abysmal manabases.

Also, feel free to add as many basics as you wish, I don't care.

EDIT: Btw, I'm not sure from where comes your certainty that I didn't test this manabase, but let me reassure you that I don't even need to test it. It happens that I just follow whatever Sloshthedark does, because he was always right about anything he did (double PiF main, LDV, his newest fashion is zero basics), while all the sourcers just grinned and held concilia about right number of Chain of Vapors.

[Lemnear]

You're right, Swamp is better for cantrips. Also, you may tap it to either play Xantid Swarm or pay the :r: in PiF cost.
I played ANT nigh exclusively for about eighteen months and only few weeks ago switched back to RUG. I don't remember the last time basics helped me in a significant way.

i could swear Basic Island, Gemstone Mine and City of Brass all tap for blue as well as 2 of the named also tap for Swarm and PIF.

TES is worse deck because it plays Burning Wish and very few shuffle effects for BS; it has nothing to do with rainbow lands.

In TES you don't play the BS/Fetchland interaction to early fix mana/cards but right before you go off or for defense. I still have no clue why Burning Wish should be a prove for TES being bad. Does this imply that other current options in that respective slots in ANT like Preordain, Grim Tutor, 2nd PIF, LDV, Sensei's Diving Top and Co. are better Business spells?

EDIT: Btw, I'm not sure from where comes your certainty that I didn't test this manabase, but let me reassure you that I don't even need to test it. It happens that I just follow whatever Sloshthedark does, because he was always right about anything he did (double PiF main, LDV, his newest fashion is zero basics), while all the sourcers just grinned and held concilia about right number of Chain of Vapors.



I dislike Gemstone -snip- But I haven't tested it.


I'm fine with this setting. In fact, I'll take it to our lgs on Thu and lets see what happens.

Both phrases make it clear what you neither tested Gemstone nor tested your manabase in the field and are just biased by an opinion given by a third player. Amazing groundwork dood

[Bed Decks Palyer]

i could swear Basic Island, Gemstone Mine and City of Brass all tap for blue as well as 2 of the named also tap for Swarm and PIF.
Oh, I see, that's true. Also the new fetches that search for Gemstone Mines are pretty powerful. I will use them in ANT immediatelly after Magic 2018 hits the stores.



In TES you don't play the BS/Fetchland interaction to early fix mana/cards but right before you go off or for defense. I still have no clue why Burning Wish should be a prove for TES being bad. Does this imply that other current options in that respective slots in ANT like Preordain, Grim Tutor, 2nd PIF, LDV, Sensei's Diving Top and Co. are better Business spells?
And that's what makes TES worse. That and Chrome Mox. Not much worse, but still.



Both phrases make it clear what you neither tested Gemstone nor tested your manabase in the field and are just biased by an opinion given by a third player. Amazing groundwork dood
I am biased by my experiences of twiddling around with basic lands and with the way how the matchups play Swamps or not. They simply can't start by wasting you, because then they have no clock; they need to build their own positions, because they don't have much time: I don't plan to sit on basics and munch my scrotum for fifteen turns, I'd rather win in the first turns.
I also don't need to test miser's Gemstone Mine (namely when I have no way to search for it). You may play whatever you wish to in that slot and it'll be of the same importance and quality as Mine.

If the basics are so important, why not add some into TES? Or RUG? Or you know... into that deck with Balustrade creature?
And yes, I follow the more experienced. What's the trouble? I know that many people here think that been original deckbuilder makes their dicks longer, but trust me, it's not like you're inventing a cure for cancer.

Also, Lemnear, you don't need to act like I touched your younger sister. Just play basics and be done with it.

[Lemnear]

The whole joke is, that for generations of ANT players, sculpting their hand for ~3 turns off a basic Island was a cornerstone of their success and now you say here that playing "3-5" turns without any basics in your deck is suddenly the way to go.

The difference in the importance of Basics grounds obviously on the habit of TES of NOT cantripping for "3-5" turns but trying to present their kill condition during their first 3 turns, thus the inclusion of Chrome Mox and Rite of Flame rather than superior late-game-options like Cabal Ritual. Therefore, comparing the importance of Basics in both decks is pretty misleading.

If your Goal is to win asap by piloting a storm-deck, ANT isn't the best deck in doing so.

[gregtron]

I played ANT nigh exclusively for about eighteen months

Congratulations! Another 18 months and we might not consider you a beginner anymore.

[Lemnear]

Congratulations! Another 18 months and we might not consider you a beginner anymore.

That's nonsense. There's no defined timeframe to learn storm. I just dare to claim that it's impossible to pickup the archtype the Night before a tournament and Pilot it beyond anything that 60% of it's offered potential

[Bed Decks Palyer]

The whole joke is, that for generations of ANT players, sculpting their hand for ~3 turns off a basic Island was a cornerstone of their success and now you say here that playing "3-5" turns without any basics in your deck is suddenly the way to go.
That's why I wrote that I consider keeping one Island in so that I may play some cantrips on turn 1-2 without Waste interacting and then sac the fetches and go for the kill on turn 3- 4.
Seriously, Wasteland is my least concern, unless paired with clock/Thalia. What I find more problematic is discard/counters and been able to play whatevedr colored spell I got (be it Swarm, Carpet, Ponder, IT, Decay, whatever) without washing out the sb with lands, is fof greater importance then fearing a card that they might not even play and that's dead on turn1.



That's nonsense. There's no defined timeframe to learn storm. I just dare to claim that it's impossible to pickup the archtype the Night before a tournament and Pilot it beyond anything that 60% of it's offered potential
+1
I play storm for six years and still got something new to learn every tournament.
Ok, so what about gentlemen's agreement - you'll play your basics and Mine, I'll play my non-basics and zero Mine, and we'll never return to this affair.

edit:

If your Goal is to win asap by piloting a storm-deck, ANT isn't the best deck in doing so.
Yeah, maybe. Maybe TES would be better. But first of all, I don't meant it like I'm in a hurry, I just don't fear Waste on turn 1-2, because they can't Waste me, they must develop their position. (Which sadly sometimes means that the best play is to Waste me, but hey, I gonna try my chances anyway, it's not like we open every hand with one land.) also, though frequent, Wasteland is not omnipresent.
I'd play TES, but I consider it been worse deck, because it tends to get clunky multi-IT, multi-BW hands, uses that joke of a card Chrome Mox and its Brainstorms are far weaker. Also, PiF is non-variance engine and one may lose with AdN even if played in Lands.

[Tombstalker]

This thread is riddled with burning wish vs non BW debates to the point of ad nauseam, with the main justification for BW to be answers for hate game 1 at the expense of the manabase and a sideboard that sucks.
Before I left the game a year ago I was on the BW plan too but now instead I've just been running 2 chain of vapors main and its been really good especially since I get a full sideboard. Honestly I do not miss BW at all. CoV has great synergy with the deck, enough so to be a MB staple I believe. Its especially useful for short storming through hate with empty + therapies and/or even with snapcaster if you dont run empty main. To everyone running wish why not try out CoV main instead?

In fact wheres Emidln these days? I would be interested to see his current iteration of storm and thoughts on CoV and SCM in the current meta.

Anyway on SB for a moment, I do not own xantid swarms so ive been playing defense grid in their place and I like them so far. However xantid swarm has the better effect, once it attacks, but seems to me to be more vulnerable to any deck that might leave in burn like RUG plus requiring a trop early and becoming active a turn later seems like it could cause issues. Are the swarms really better than defense grid?

Also can we just start referring to this deck as Flamestorm or even Cabal Storm? Either is more appropriate for the identity of the deck than ANT at this point. Personally ive been using Flamestorm but either is preferrable to ANT.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Tombstalker, may you share your CoV list?
I already thiught about Defense Grid in past, but I dislike that it costs 2 and thus is slower and Snare-able. Otoh, many decks leave some removal and Xantid dies to everything, also it's sometimes quite annoying when it flies right into Clique. (Or when you need to play several setup spells, but can't get past Insectile Abomination.)

[Tombstalker]

Ya ive had similar thoughts on swarms, I mean their power is obvious I was just curious on swarm vs grid.

list:

8 fetches
2 sea
2 island
1 swamp
1 volcanic island
4 LED
4 lotus petal
4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 probe
4 infernal tutor
1 lim-dul's vault
1 past in flames
1 tendrils of agony
1 empty the warrens
3 cabal therapy
3 duress
2 CoV
1 sensei's top
1 snapcaster

SB
2 dread of night
2 defense grid
1 karakas
2 surgical extraction
1 extirpate
1 tropical island
3 abrupt decay
2 pithing needle
1 ad nauseam

There are a few slots that change fairly often. Im on and off the 2nd SDT vs 2nd SCM and AdN vs empty. I dont like to see multiples of SDT or SCM, or LDV for that matter.

Empty is great at times and has powerful interaction with therapies but too many decks have answers for it lately, hell pretty much every single deck does, plus I feel it tends to make you go for the easy out instead of thinking a little more to straight win. Ive learned the hard way a few times that blades and even a couple DRS are > gobbos. For these reasons and more I will often run ad naus in its place. Im just trying to figure out which is better suited MB for my local meta.

[ThomasDowd]

This thread is riddled with burning wish vs non BW debates to the point of ad nauseam, with the main justification for BW to be answers for hate game 1 at the expense of the manabase and a sideboard that sucks.
Before I left the game a year ago I was on the BW plan too but now instead I've just been running 2 chain of vapors main and its been really good especially since I get a full sideboard. Honestly I do not miss BW at all. CoV has great synergy with the deck, enough so to be a MB staple I believe. Its especially useful for short storming through hate with empty + therapies and/or even with snapcaster if you dont run empty main. To everyone running wish why not try out CoV main instead?

In fact wheres Emidln these days? I would be interested to see his current iteration of storm and thoughts on CoV and SCM in the current meta.

Anyway on SB for a moment, I do not own xantid swarms so ive been playing defense grid in their place and I like them so far. However xantid swarm has the better effect, once it attacks, but seems to me to be more vulnerable to any deck that might leave in burn like RUG plus requiring a trop early and becoming active a turn later seems like it could cause issues. Are the swarms really better than defense grid?

Also can we just start referring to this deck as Flamestorm or even Cabal Storm? Either is more appropriate for the identity of the deck than ANT at this point. Personally ive been using Flamestorm but either is preferrable to ANT.



3cmc vs 1 cmc is the main driving force behind swarm versus grid, also some show and tell players can just hit 6 mana and hold 2 free counterspells and just beat a grid, swarm, just stops them.

the turn later thign isn't that big of a deal when it costs so much less, i am ok with saving 2 mana to wait a turn. AND allows for turn 2 wins with "silence protection"

[SaberTooth]

i could try -2 gemstones +1 bayou +1 tropical

[DarkJester]

Grid is CMC 2, not 3 ;) but this doesn't matter that much.
@ Tombstalker and BedDecksPalyer: From my point of view, Swarm is mostly for the Show ad Tell/Reanimator Matchup...perhaps even Merfolk. Decks which can't deal with a resolved Insect. Nobody says someone should board it against RUG, which won't board out their Bolts against you most of the time. If a SnT-Player reveals a Griselbrand (drawing infinite Forces, Pierces, Flusters) and you reveal Swarm, you basically say: FU, I'll blank all your crappy counters and win anyways. That's not always the case with Grid in an often grindy MU like this. Against RUG I'm just fine with my Discard-Package and EtW (which I play as a 3-off in my Board at the moment).

[Tombstalker]

3cmc vs 1 cmc is the main driving force behind swarm versus grid, also some show and tell players can just hit 6 mana and hold 2 free counterspells and just beat a grid, swarm, just stops them.

the turn later thign isn't that big of a deal when it costs so much less, i am ok with saving 2 mana to wait a turn. AND allows for turn 2 wins with "silence protection"
Thanks for the reply the turn 1 swarm play makes perfect sense. Hitting 6 mana I have seen before although their FoWs/BS etc become far worse when paying 3 apiece. Grid costs 2 btw unless your referring to bant with thalia maybe?


@ Tombstalker and BedDecksPalyer: From my point of view, Swarm is mostly for the Show ad Tell/Reanimator Matchup...perhaps even Merfolk. Decks which can't deal with a resolved Insect. Nobody says someone should board it against RUG, which won't board out their Bolts against you most of the time. If a SnT-Player reveals a Griselbrand (drawing infinite Forces, Pierces, Flusters) and you reveal Swarm, you basically say: FU, I'll blank all your crappy counters and win anyways. That's not always the case with Grid in an often grindy MU like this. Against RUG I'm just fine with my Discard-Package and EtW (which I play as a 3-off in my Board at the moment).
This also makes sense, ill have to pay more attention to how grid performs and maybe ill just end up buying some swarms.
EtW otoh is also very good against RUG especially in hand but im not willing to run more than 1 in the 75 anymore. I usually see MUD, reanimator, RUG, DnT, maverick, burn, miracle control, jund, few others. Most of these can shrug off goblin tokens pretty easily after the initial surprise.

[Dzra]

I'm far from an experienced Strom player, but I've really liked Defense Grid whenever I've used it. I can't count the number of times that I've seen Swarm just get ranched. On the play, Defense Grid ensures that you can go off t3 unhindered since they won't have even made their 3rd land drop. Even when you are on the draw, your opponent will have to decide if doing nothing for the next turn or two is worth leaving up a single piece of countermagic. I concede that Swarm is better against decks that cannot easily answer it like SNT, but even Reanimator can blow Swarm out with Elesh Norn. Against decks like RUG that are relying on a critical mass of soft counters to get there against combo, Defense Grid blanks most of their hand.

[Lemnear]

I'm far from an experienced Strom player, but I've really liked Defense Grid whenever I've used it. I can't count the number of times that I've seen Swarm just get ranched. On the play, Defense Grid ensures that you can go off t3 unhindered since they won't have even made their 3rd land drop. Even when you are on the draw, your opponent will have to decide if doing nothing for the next turn or two is worth leaving up a single piece of countermagic. I concede that Swarm is better against decks that cannot easily answer it like SNT, but even Reanimator can blow Swarm out with Elesh Norn. Against decks like RUG that are relying on a critical mass of soft counters to get there against combo, Defense Grid blanks most of their hand.

Wow ... are you really breaking the matchup ANT vs. Reanimator down to Swarm vs. Elesh Norn?!? Griselbrand has flying btw and laughs at Swarm. Your best bet is Racing them ... not trying to be the control-deck.

The issue with Grid is that it costs 2 mana. When do you plan to play it? In your killturn? Unlikely to calculate 2 more mana in your combo. Spending your turn 2/3? Very questionable in a meta with a Million discard spells.

Not to talk about it being a target for the metagames no.2 counter: Spell Pierce. The only card in games 2&3 Swarm has to fear is Lightning Bolt from RUG

[Bed Decks Palyer]

The only card in games 2&3 Swarm has to fear is Lightning Bolt from RUG
I really seen Swarm hit by anything possible, even in decks that should not play any removal post-sb. (Looks like ppl are familar with Swarms...) Also, many blue decks pack Clique in sb for storm match.

[jtos84]

I am wondering what people think, or what the expert opinion is on playing anything but one tendrils main in the preordain build as opposed to playing with burning wish or wishes and all the other random cards like empty the warrens, xantid swarm, ill gotten gains, etc. To me it seems to be an experience factor unless there are meta game factors I am missing.

In my progression with the deck I had to play with burning wishes and empty the warrens just to stay interested because I was missing so many lines of play. About a month and a half ago or so (maybe longer I can't remember) I decided to take a break from my other deck and just play storm until I was proficient with it. I was using one burning wish and a tendrils and past in flames in the s/b. At first I did not like preordain at all. After I played and played and played I understood that preordain just like using one tendrils increases the constancy of the deck.

If you are able to identify most (all if possible) lines of play then all the extra cards just get in the way. The discard package of four duress and 2 cabal therapy in the main is adequate for disrupting most plays your opponent is planning. I could probably go on and on about why I think this and why I think that, but what advantage if any do burning wish variants have over preordain builds? I also use one grim tutor because it seems to also be the more consistent than four preordains.

For the s/b I just do not understand xantid swarm. Carpet of flowers allows you to fix your mana base to either beat the counters or get the right color. I also do not really understand more than two chain of vapors. Most of the time I end up casting them off of an ad nauseam to bounce a leyline. Even in those circumstances I just board in the karakas and an extra cabal therapy to get thalia, and one chain of vapor. Slaughter pact also seems completely unnecessary and redundant. Chain of vapor can achieve the same goal against gaddok teeg, ethersworn canonist, and any other board piece that needs removed.

I am also wondering why more people do not use gemstone mine? That card probably picks up so many games its ridiculous because it can produce any color you need. I've also found that two basic islands, one basic swamp, four deltas and three tarns are necessary for higher consistency. I used to play tps in vintage, so the legacy version of storm just seems far more simplistic.

I'm not saying the cards I mentioned above are not good cards to play, but I am wondering what the numbers are on them in terms of success/failure in certain metagames. Go ahead and tear that post up, that is kind of what I am looking for here.

[Dzra]

Wow ... are you really breaking the matchup ANT vs. Reanimator down to Swarm vs. Elesh Norn?!? Griselbrand has flying btw and laughs at Swarm. Your best bet is Racing them ... not trying to be the control-deck.

There are a whole lot of things that can go wrong for ANT vs Reanimator, but unless I'm missing something Griselbrand does nothing to reduce the effectiveness of Swarm. I feel like trying to simply race Reanimator is a losing proposition since they are just as fast as us and pack more disruption.

[Lemnear]

I am wondering what people think, or what the expert opinion is on playing anything but one tendrils main in the preordain build as opposed to playing with burning wish or wishes and all the other random cards like empty the warrens, xantid swarm, ill gotten gains, etc. To me it seems to be an experience factor unless there are meta game factors I am missing.

In my progression with the deck I had to play with burning wishes and empty the warrens just to stay interested because I was missing so many lines of play. About a month and a half ago or so (maybe longer I can't remember) I decided to take a break from my other deck and just play storm until I was proficient with it. I was using one burning wish and a tendrils and past in flames in the s/b. At first I did not like preordain at all. After I played and played and played I understood that preordain just like using one tendrils increases the constancy of the deck.

If you are able to identify most (all if possible) lines of play then all the extra cards just get in the way. The discard package of four duress and 2 cabal therapy in the main is adequate for disrupting most plays your opponent is planning. I could probably go on and on about why I think this and why I think that, but what advantage if any do burning wish variants have over preordain builds? I also use one grim tutor because it seems to also be the more consistent than four preordains.

For the s/b I just do not understand xantid swarm. Carpet of flowers allows you to fix your mana base to either beat the counters or get the right color. I also do not really understand more than two chain of vapors. Most of the time I end up casting them off of an ad nauseam to bounce a leyline. Even in those circumstances I just board in the karakas and an extra cabal therapy to get thalia, and one chain of vapor. Slaughter pact also seems completely unnecessary and redundant. Chain of vapor can achieve the same goal against gaddok teeg, ethersworn canonist, and any other board piece that needs removed.

I am also wondering why more people do not use gemstone mine? That card probably picks up so many games its ridiculous because it can produce any color you need. I've also found that two basic islands, one basic swamp, four deltas and three tarns are necessary for higher consistency. I used to play tps in vintage, so the legacy version of storm just seems far more simplistic.

I'm not saying the cards I mentioned above are not good cards to play, but I am wondering what the numbers are on them in terms of success/failure in certain metagames. Go ahead and tear that post up, that is kind of what I am looking for here.

Shall I copy&paste the last 60 Pages of this thread for you? Because since the banning of Mystical Tutor exactly those topics are all the threads content

[jtos84]

If you can summarize the last 60 pages that would be much better. I already have my thoughts on the subject. My view is that anything other than one tendrils and the preordain build is just less consistent, but good for learning.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

If you can summarize the last 60 pages that would be much better. I already have my thoughts on the subject. My view is that anything other than one tendrils and the preordain build is just less consistent, but good for learning.
I played Preordain build for a very short period, so count me biased, but I find the durdling quite annoying. I wouldn't play anything else then LDV version except for a heavy hatebears meta, where I'd consider playing 2-3 BW and appropriate sb.

[nevilshute]

@jtos84:

The Burning Wish / No Burning Wish discussion is a heavily contested one. I appreciate that you make your arguments calmly and politely, unlike some people that frequent this thread. I wrote a brief analysis on how I see the differences on salvation, quoted beneath.

I'm not heavily experienced (having played ANT with Bwish for about 3 months now) so that might speak in favour of your 'experience' argument. I'd agree that running no wishes make the deck more consistent. But the deck WITH wishes is hardly inconsistent and I feel that the consistency you get, while great when goldfishing, often gets knocked out of course by a live opponent. Stuff like keeping a good hand on the draw, watching your opponent drop a t1 deathrite shaman and then you top-decking your one tendrils. Now, any discard spell from your opponent will basically end the game. Extraction effects post board also get way more scary. It might just be a question of experience and I might be more inclined to playing with no wishes, but the one tournament I tried it, I failed miserably at it and really didn't feel comfortable with it.



Advantage of running without Burning Wish:

No awkward Past in Flames situations as tutoring for PiF will always result in the tutor being in the yard for the win (not factoring in actions by the opponent) - This is one of the major points against running Wishes. Having a hand of 2x Dark Ritual, 1x Cabal Ritual, 1x LED and then drawing a Burning Wish usually means being able to only make 12 goblins instead of simply winning which would have been the outcome had that Wish been an Infernal Tutor or a Grim Tutor (note: with a Grim tutor in the board you could potentially win with the wish anyway)

The manabase is more labored - without the wishes and with only PiF needing r you can get away with not playing the Badlands and only running a single Volcanic Island as your only red source. The freed spot can be used for an extra basic Island or potentially a Gemstone Mine. Also generally it just means fewer occasions where you need red mana which makes for more streamlined play.


Advantage of running with Burning Wish:

More flexibility, more roads to victory - Having Burning Wish means you won't get caught with your dick in the wind getting your only win con Tendrils discarded and removed from your graveyard with an extraction, a relic or something else. It also opens up a path to pre-board Empty the Warrens which can lead to the occasional turn 1, 2 or 3 10+ goblins. This is probably a matter of personal taste and temperament, but for me I absolutely didn't feel comfortable playing with the Tendrils as my only win con. On more than one occasion I've ended up with it stranded in my hand and my opponent having a Deathrite Shaman on the board. It just felt a lot more fragile and having Burning Wish in the deck just means more ways to get out of awkward situations where you've lost your Tendrils somehow.

Makes Ad Nauseam better - To me, this is a big upside. Ad Nauseam without Burning Wish means most of the time you must hit an LED. Will that happen often? Sure. Will there be occasions where two of your LEDs are already in your yard? You bet. But with Burning Wish it's usually much more straight forward to win off an AN as you don't need to get hellbent. It means you need red mana, either floating or by hitting a petal or a red producing land (assuming you haven't already got one untapped in play and have not yet made your land drop). There will be cases where you have one tutor effect and wish it were the other and vice versa, but I feel that all in all the wishes improve the Ad Nauseam greatly.

Game one access to anti-hatebear Cards - not autoscooping to a resolved Gaddock Teeg - This might not come up very frequently but it sure is nice to have the option of wishing for a Virtue's Ruin and kill the Teeg (or Thalia).

[Lemnear]

If you can summarize the last 60 pages that would be much better. I already have my thoughts on the subject. My view is that anything other than one tendrils and the preordain build is just less consistent, but good for learning.

The problem is that there's no consense. Here, you have to deal with peeps who tell you that Grim Tutor is nuts, groups that advocate for ugly 4-Color manabases to support Abrupt Decay and Burning Wish and others preach consistancy with 16 cantrips with 2,5 colors but all claim that they have THE SUPERIOR build, miraculously recover from any discard and are immune to Wasteland.

Obviously, that can't all be true at the same time and there's too much bias to tackle the certain problems without having the discussion derailed by talk about builds.

[jtos84]

I've been looking at side board hate to play against storm. Nothing seems that overwhelming. I acknowledge you can easily loose to one piece of hate, or just take out four pieces plus like its nothing. Burning wish can be really good for maindeck thalias. It seems burning wish may just be a legitimate meta game choice as opposed to one build being superior or correct. It seems like it will just come down to preference because games two and three are not overly scary against dt or maverick.

I think I prefer three preordains and a grim tutor because of the consistency. I think it also allows me to remember lines of play easier because burning wish creates alternative lines which may cause difficulties at times.

Deathrite shaman can cut you off of past in flames. I do not think that this alone is all that scary. Out of all the games I have played against deathrite plus surgical it has rarely happened that I get my tendrils extracted. Its not even really common to get a tutor extracted. It seems like there is no one superior build, but to just be on top of your game and knowing exactly what lines of play you will encountering with the cards you are playing.

[Lemnear]

I've been looking at side board hate to play against storm. Nothing seems that overwhelming. I acknowledge you can easily loose to one piece of hate, or just take out four pieces plus like its nothing. Burning wish can be really good for maindeck thalias. It seems burning wish may just be a legitimate meta game choice as opposed to one build being superior or correct. It seems like it will just come down to preference because games two and three are not overly scary against dt or maverick.

I think I prefer three preordains and a grim tutor because of the consistency. I think it also allows me to remember lines of play easier because burning wish creates alternative lines which may cause difficulties at times.

Deathrite shaman can cut you off of past in flames. I do not think that this alone is all that scary. Out of all the games I have played against deathrite plus surgical it has rarely happened that I get my tendrils extracted. Its not even really common to get a tutor extracted. It seems like there is no one superior build, but to just be on top of your game and knowing exactly what lines of play you will encountering with the cards you are playing.

DRS does nothing to stop PIF

[jtos84]

It obviously does something against something. I wonder what that would be.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

It obviously does something against something. I wonder what that would be.
Maybe it pings target creature at cost of :r: and two cards from gy? Oh wait, must be the other creature...
Everytime I read such a bold statements like "DRS does nothing against PiF" I wonder if those players ever played a game of Magical gatherable cards. It's like saying "Terror does nothing against creatures". Yes, there will be the times when you combo through their sole DRS and watch them shed blood, sweat, tears. Otoh, there will be times when you'll not be sitting across a fish bowl, and then DRS will keep you of threshold, lower your life total, exile key cards and generally just ruin your day.

[Lemnear]

Maybe it pings target creature at cost of :r: and two cards from gy? Oh wait, must be the other creature...
Everytime I read such a bold statements like "DRS does nothing against PiF" I wonder if those players ever played a game of Magical gatherable cards. It's like saying "Terror does nothing against creatures". Yes, there will be the times when you combo through their sole DRS and watch them shed blood, sweat, tears. Otoh, there will be times when you'll not be sitting across a fish bowl, and then DRS will keep you of threshold, lower your life total, exile key cards and generally just ruin your day.

DRS is only a Problem if you are unable to respond to your Cabal Ritual if they try to snatch your t.hold or being to shortsighted to cast Infernal->Infernal->PIF and laugh at them trying to stop you by removing Infernal.

Dood, if a single DRS activation per turn is threatening for your life total or enough to stop you from getting T.hold during your first, say 4 turns, I would question your playstyle and skill.

I made a bold Statement because the issue is pretty easy to solve. Take a look at my fucking reports in my sig to see how irrelevant DRS against storm are and save your "but, but, but you have no idea!" crap.

Terror does pretty much the same against Emrakul or Griselbrand that DRS does to storm.

[Tombstalker]

Shall I copy&paste the last 60 Pages of this thread for you? Because since the banning of Mystical Tutor exactly those topics are all the threads content
Sadly this.

The problem (if it really is a problem) is the core of legacy storm is so integral it may as well be part of the 10 commandments. The core is so goddamn powerful as to win even when the remainder is built and piloted sub optimally. And thus cabal storm, "ANT" is become decadent arrested development.


What we really need is the fucking 3rd tablet moses never shared, but that would probably just get an entire deck banned.. hey maybe Lejay has it!

[mike1987]

For you guys who play surgical extraction in the side, besides using it against reanimator, dredge or other faster combo decks, do you guys side it in against decks like miracles? Discarding a counterbalance/FOW and extracting it seems sweet.

[Lemnear]

For you guys who play surgical extraction in the side, besides using it against reanimator, dredge or other faster combo decks, do you guys side it in against decks like miracles? Discarding a counterbalance/FOW and extracting it seems sweet.

So you wanna waste cards in YOUR HAND to get rid of cards in THEIR LIBRARY which they MIGHT topdeck?

Think about resources, pal

[Le Chuck]

Hi Guys, about the Grid/Swarm's debate, is true that grid is under snare/pierce, but in that case you wouldn't consider a 1 for 1?
I have play both grid that swarm, and it's hard to say which its better, but certainly i know that its very annoying have a grid in play, and couldn't go off because your opponent have 3 free mana to cast FoF.
Btw Xantid are more easy to get in play if we have green, and if we have more than one in play they can buy at least on turn to find some way to win. Ah and even if in this time its a rare match-up, xantid swarm are pretty effectives also against Dredge, in getting rid of their Bridge.

I apologize for my english, i hope not to do too much mistake!

[DarkJester]

WTF? Sorry, but you would board Swarms against Dredge to chumpblock? That can't be serious...

[Le Chuck]

Belive me, instead, its serious stuff! I win a final chumpblocking dredge with swarm, true story bro'.. btw except COV and meybe an eventually surgical/extirpate what you would brought in for the other match?
Xantid force him to go of or have you dead on board if he doesn't want to lose his bridge.. And you may always play xantid and flashback a therapy to blows of the bridges.. Fantamagic XD but happens

[Lemnear]

Xantid Swarm + Cabal Therapy as tech vs. Dredge?

Discard their Dredge cards or what? Playing 2 crappy cards in that matchup postboard just to get rid of 1-2 bridges if you assemble both?

If this thread keeps up the quality of the last few pages we can move it down to Development. Swarm against Aggro, Defense Grid in a discard-meta, Surgical Extraction against FoW and the ever repeating question for advice which Build to choose between 16-cantips, Wish and Grim Tutor ... This thread became more degenerated than the old Elven thread imo. :(

[Le Chuck]

I'm not saying to let inside my 4x of duress and 1x of thoughtseize.. I left in only my two therapy..
So: OUT - 4 duress, -1 thoughtseize, -2 gitaxian
IN +3 COV +2 surgical + 2 xantid
Eventually a Change Karakas-basicSwamp if you are expecting a Iona "returned"
Anyway i'm not saying that I have include xantid swarm in my sideboard like an anti-dredge slot, but even looking around to other Ant sideboard, we haven't much bullets against Dredge, so if xantid can provide more benefit than other main cards why not brought in.. Also, it works.. I understand that can sounds strange and I don't wont to convince anyone, just share experiences and thoughts. IMHO

[jtos84]

I was hoping for a more scientific approach, but I think I understood what you meant.

[Dzra]

If this thread keeps up the quality of the last few pages we can move it down to Development. Swarm against Aggro, Defense Grid in a discard-meta, Surgical Extraction against FoW and the ever repeating question for advice which Build to choose between 16-cantips, Wish and Grim Tutor ... This thread became more degenerated than the old Elven thread imo. :(

Swarm and Defense Grid both come in against counters. The problem is when so many of the counter decks these days are also packing multiple removal spells. And you still haven't explained why Swarm is bad against Griselbrand?

Surgical is awful against FoW, agreed.


I made a bold Statement because the issue is pretty easy to solve. Take a look at my fucking reports in my sig to see how irrelevant DRS against storm are and save your "but, but, but you have no idea!" crap.

As far as ye ole Burning Wish VS Preordain, I have to admit that Preordain does make goldfishing T2s infinitely more consistent. As far as actual games... I've had a lot of trouble with discard + exile effects removing my only Tendrils and leaving me completely dead. Even just naturally drawing the Tendrils when you're on the LED plan makes a lone Deathrite or Nihil Spellbomb really awkward. Burning Wish, while clunky, gets around that.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

DRS is only a Problem if you are unable to respond to your Cabal Ritual if they try to snatch your t.hold or being to shortsighted to cast Infernal->Infernal->PIF and laugh at them trying to stop you by removing Infernal.

Dood, if a single DRS activation per turn is threatening for your life total or enough to stop you from getting T.hold during your first, say 4 turns, I would question your playstyle and skill.

I made a bold Statement because the issue is pretty easy to solve. Take a look at my fucking reports in my sig to see how irrelevant DRS against storm are and save your "but, but, but you have no idea!" crap.

Terror does pretty much the same against Emrakul or Griselbrand that DRS does to storm.

You've wasted a nice chance that I'll ever read your reports just by the fact that you act like a jilted lover.

If you always meet idiots that can't play DRS correctly and simultaneously give you all the time you need and their only discard is Persecute Artist, than I really question where (and whom) exactly you play. Must be those tournamets that start at 1:00 pm during the pause between Gymnastics and Music and singing. In real life, there's that thing called variance and not every time you have a perfect hand (or the ability to sculpt your hand for X turns to get and keep the double Tutor AND acceleration AND maybe even protection). Sometimes (while not always) you don't have the luxury to just laugh at it, sometimes they just defeat you with the said shaman.

I can also win through DRS, I can win through anything, even foil Trinisphere and :7::b: Mind Twist on turn0. But saying that DRS does nothing is stupid, because that creature has words written all over it, so it must do something, unless it's a flavor text.

I seriously question if my friend wasn't right about all the net forums. "I don't join any of them, and even if I do, I hardly ever write or ask anything. All the people act like they're Superman and Obama combined: their hands auto-mull to eleven cards, their FoWs come glued to Ancestrals, and their penises are double the size of yours, no matter that you're native Uganda-born."

I'm done with you and I simply don't care of your other blathering how you're the best planeswalker ever.




As far as ye ole Burning Wish VS Preordain, I have to admit that Preordain does make goldfishing T2s infinitely more consistent. As far as actual games... I've had a lot of trouble with discard + exile effects removing my only Tendrils and leaving me completely dead. Even just naturally drawing the Tendrils when you're on the LED plan makes a lone Deathrite or Nihil Spellbomb really awkward. Burning Wish, while clunky, gets around that.
How come? DRS can't do any harm, read what Teh Master has to say about it. You just do something something while they just stare, then do that and that and then in response [drumroll] you pull the rabbit out of silk hat and Chaos Orb their elf. :rolleyes:

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Anyone ever try playing a tutor/cantrip base of:

4 IT
1 B.Wish
1 Personal Tutor
2 LDV

4 Brainstorm
X Ponder
Y Preordain

1 Gemstone Mine
------------------------

It would mean switching up your sideboard only by 2-3 cards to use this setup as efficiently as needed for those corner-case situations it's needed for. I've been toying with a proxied version so I can test against it with my Deathblade list, and while my list isn't for this thread, it uses this setup and has been quite the contender at least against deathblade. Not the worst matchup for storm, but still fairly difficult when they know you are combo. I would like to hear some discussion on this matter, as I think it shores up some arguments. Here's another argument settled in my opinion: Grim Tutor. It sucks. I tried and tried in tons of different builds to make them useful or good. They are clunky. They are painful, and they are simply not synergistic with the number of mana produced by the mana-accelerants of the deck, or with Ad Nauseam because of the quadruple black mana required to play Grim and Ad Nauseam in the same turn.

-ABC

EDIT: I've also been dwelling on an idea lately that looks to use DRS within storm, as black's first and extremely good mana dork. It mini-tendrils by itself and is also on-color with Swarm and Abrupt Decay. Using Diabolic Intent for a Tutor would be an awesome possibility (play it off a Swarm after attacking with said Swarm) or off the deathrite that helped pay for it. Then there is Culling the Weak. I don't know if its a possible direction, as I am sceptical of creatures within storm. Just floating the idea.

[phazonmutant]

I seriously question if my friend wasn't right about all the net forums. "I don't join any of them, and even if I do, I hardly ever write or ask anything. All the people act like they're Superman and Obama combined: their hands auto-mull to eleven cards, their FoWs come glued to Ancestrals, and their penises are double the size of yours, no matter that you're native Uganda-born."

Great quote. It applies pretty well to both sides of this little spat. It applies to me too, except that all those things are true for me :cool:

I'm pretty sure everyone in this thread (the world?) knows how to play through Deathrite Shaman, and also that sometimes you can't. You both are acting like you're menstruating.



Anyone ever try playing a tutor/cantrip base of:

4 IT
A.B.Wish
??? Personal Tutor
BINGO LDV

W Brainstorm
T Ponder
F Preordain

1 Elephant Graveyard

Did you pull those numbers from a lotto machine? Pretty sure there's been discussion of Personal Tutor before and that it's still worse than the other options. Burning Wish at least puts the card in your hand and gives you access to conditionally powerful cards...unless you're only playing one. Then you're just messing with your sideboard for a 1-of. LDV is a fine card as IT 5-6, but seems to require some slight deck tweaks (Top). Grim Tutor may suck, but playing an awkward amalgamation of random tutors sucks more.



The problem (if it really is a problem) is the core of legacy storm is so integral it may as well be part of the 10 commandments. The core is so goddamn powerful as to win even when the remainder is built and piloted sub optimally. And thus cabal storm, "ANT" is become decadent arrested development.


What we really need is the fucking 3rd tablet moses never shared, but that would probably just get an entire deck banned.. hey maybe Lejay has it!

This made my day. I'm tempted to put it in my sig.

[Final Fortune]

So I like the cantrip heavy lists (I did play Spiral Tide for a long time) but I hate Gemstone Mine. Here is where I am at with my manabase:

4x Polluted Delta
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Bloodstained Mire
2x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island
1x Tropical Island
2x Island
1x Swamp

Plus an additional Bayou in the board. I prefer the Misty/Bloodstained split so that I have additional ways of fetching a basic swamp, considering how much access I already have to blue. Mire doesn't grab Trop but it can get Bayou post-board (which is really the only time I want it anyway). What are other people running? Is Gemstone really superior to this configuration?

That's more or less acceptable, but I find 2 Underground Sea, 1 Volcanic Island, 2 Island, 1 Swamp and then all U/G Fetchlands with a Tropical Island and a Bayou in the SB is generally more reliable because in the 16 cantrip version of the deck you want to be able to Island, Cantrip. Island, Cantrip, Cantrip thru' Wasteland and win on your third turn as your go to play. You rarely lead with Duress or Cabal Therapy in the cantrip build, at least in game one, instead you lead with Pre-Ordain or Ponder into a Gitaxian Probe by turn 2 and then you know whether or not you need to fetch the Swamp in order to play thru' a counter wall + the possibility of Wasteland over multiple turns.

@People: Xantid Swarm is not for aggro-control, between Lightning Bolt/Chain Lightning, Abrupt Decay and Swords to Plowshares it's unreliable at best, Xantid Swarm is for the Show&Tell match up where a resolved Leyline of Sanctity turns off your entire disruption suite otherwise or for any match up that doesn't have an answer to it like Reanimator, High Tide or Merfolk etc.

I think the TES vs ANT arguments are incredibly fucking misinformed, because neither deck is played in a gold fishing vacuum. TES will have a better game in discard or permanent based hate environments, i.e. Jund, Miracles or Maverick where ANT will have a better game in aggro-control environments like RUG, BUG and Blade because of the speed and redundancy vs the stability and consistency respectively. The problem I have with Burning Wish variants of ANT is that people are playing them in environments where TES would be more suitable, I've never played the Grim Tutor version of ANT because of the price of Grim Tutor but facially I can understand why somebody would play it with so much discard in the metagame.

As far as the 1 kill condition getting discarded and removed from the game, I don't think it happens often enough to be worried about it, but one of the things I've been mulling over for awhile is whether or not Ad Nauseam should be replaced with Empty the Warrens in the MD because both cards often have redundant functions vs a lot of the same decks but Empty the Warrens is cheaper and not dependent on your life total. The only draw back to SBing Ad Nauseam is that you probably aren't going to win any of your combo mirros based on speed, but meh.

[Dzra]

@People: Xantid Swarm is not for aggro-control, between Lightning Bolt/Chain Lightning, Abrupt Decay and Swords to Plowshares it's unreliable at best, Xantid Swarm is for the Show&Tell match up where a resolved Leyline of Sanctity turns off your entire disruption suite otherwise or for any match up that doesn't have an answer to it like Reanimator, High Tide or Merfolk etc.

I'm not asking to be snarky, but would it not be better to fill that slot with something that can be used in the aggro control matchups? (ie Defense Grid) Even with plenty of discard, RUG and UWR Devler aren't exactly walks in the park. I'd go so far to say that any of those decks would be glad to sit across from a Storm player.


As far as the 1 kill condition getting discarded and removed from the game, I don't think it happens often enough to be worried about it

I admit that my having awful luck might skew my thinking here, but I've lost every game against Shardless BUG where I've been unlucky enough to naturally draw my Tendrils without a way to Brainstorm it away. This happened twice out of several games last night... the first I got my Tendrils discarded to Hymn or something, followed by him activating his t1 Nihil Spellbomb. The second time, I had a sick hand of double Ritual, double LED, and Infernal Tutor. The downside was that I also had my only Tendrils in hand and he had an active Deathrite. I wait and hope to draw out of it, eat some discard, and lose on the spot. Maybe the answer is simply to board into a second Tendrils against discard?

[Final Fortune]

I'm not asking to be snarky, but would it not be better to fill that slot with something that can be used in the aggro control matchups? (ie Defense Grid) Even with plenty of discard, RUG and UWR Devler aren't exactly walks in the park. I'd go so far to say that any of those decks would be glad to sit across from a Storm player.



I admit that my having awful luck might skew my thinking here, but I've lost every game against Shardless BUG where I've been unlucky enough to naturally draw my Tendrils without a way to Brainstorm it away. This happened twice out of several games last night... the first I got my Tendrils discarded to Hymn or something, followed by him activating his t1 Nihil Spellbomb. The second time, I had a sick hand of double Ritual, double LED, and Infernal Tutor. The downside was that I also had my only Tendrils in hand and he had an active Deathrite. I wait and hope to draw out of it, eat some discard, and lose on the spot. Maybe the answer is simply to board into a second Tendrils against discard?

I think it's a psychological problem where the time it does happen, it traumatizes you to the point where you never want it to happen again regardless of whether or not it's objectively good to play Burning Wish etc. I think the second Tendrils is probably not objectively good as well, but I'd really recommend you try cutting Ad Nauseam from the deck in favor of Empty the Warrens.

Haven't messed around with Defense Grid in Storm in a really long time, so I honestly can't say whether or not it's worth playing just to increase the amount of disruption vs aggro-control. My gut feeling is that two mana is too much for any disruption spell in Storm and probably wouldn't be any better than more discard considering the abundance of Abrupt Decay. If I were really tight on SB space, maybe, but I don't usually find that to be a problem in ANT. If you want to play around with it then go for it and let me know if I'm wrong, but I don't really so much potential in the card because I already do pretty well vs RUG and Blade as is.

On another note, LDV and Top seem really good in the metagame right now, I think Carsten is probably on to something with top deck manipulation vs extra cantripping in a Thoughtseize run world.

[Lemnear]

You've wasted a nice chance that I'll ever read your reports just by the fact that you act like a jilted lover.

If you always meet idiots that can't play DRS correctly and simultaneously give you all the time you need and their only discard is Persecute Artist, than I really question where (and whom) exactly you play. Must be those tournamets that start at 1:00 pm during the pause between Gymnastics and Music and singing. In real life, there's that thing called variance and not every time you have a perfect hand (or the ability to sculpt your hand for X turns to get and keep the double Tutor AND acceleration AND maybe even protection). Sometimes (while not always) you don't have the luxury to just laugh at it, sometimes they just defeat you with the said shaman.

I can also win through DRS, I can win through anything, even foil Trinisphere and :7::b: Mind Twist on turn0. But saying that DRS does nothing is stupid, because that creature has words written all over it, so it must do something, unless it's a flavor text.

I seriously question if my friend wasn't right about all the net forums. "I don't join any of them, and even if I do, I hardly ever write or ask anything. All the people act like they're Superman and Obama combined: their hands auto-mull to eleven cards, their FoWs come glued to Ancestrals, and their penises are double the size of yours, no matter that you're native Uganda-born."

I'm done with you and I simply don't care of your other blathering how you

It's your choice to ignore the detailed reports I once handed out to demystify the TES deck and give insight how to tackle certain matchups (most peeps on the Source found them very enteraining and helpful; maybe you'll get over it and take a peek), just for the reason we two have a heated discussion about how relevant DRS is against decks which aim to present a lethal PIF/AN/EtW within the first 3 turns of their game.

Sadly you still lack an explaination why TES is a bad deck due to Burning Wish rather than just BECAUSE the deck contains the card. :/

It would be really helpful if you stop the habit of making bold claims about things you never tested (Gemstone Mine), things a third Person just told you (Basic-less 4c manabase) or things you imagine/Wish for (all ~30 Players in my tournament just being bad at the game 'cause you can't stand me or my arguments).

You can insult me, but attacking the credibility of other people by a strawman is classless even if the Obama/Superman speach was excellent. :)

[Bed Decks Palyer]

It would be really helpful if you stop the habit of making bold claims about things you never tested (Gemstone Mine), things a third Person just told you (Basic-less 4c manabase) or things you imagine/Wish for (all ~30 Players in my tournament just being bad at the game 'cause you can't stand me or my arguments).
It would be really helpful if you stop the habit of making bold statement about what I ever tested or not. Also, if you can't understand hyperbole (e.g.: I don't think that every person you ever met is an idiot), feel free to skip my posts.



Sadly you still lack an explaination why TES is a bad deck due to Burning Wish rather than just BECAUSE the deck contains the card. :/
Look it up, then. I already wrote it: the clunky multi-BW/IT hands, strange Brainstorms, a bit harder decision trees and Chrome Mox alone would be enough, but the FACT THAT TES ISN'T A DTB may quench your curiosity.
But I may be mistaken. After all, what is good and what's not is personal opinion, right?



It's your choice to ignore the detailed reports I once handed out to demystify the TES deck and give insight how to tackle certain matchups..., just for the reason we two have a heated discussion. No, I chose to do so because I don't like pompous people.

/menses

[Lemnear]

The DtB section on TheSource isn't defined by a decks strength and Individual performance but indicates trends and the frequency you'll face the deck. ANT is a much more likely storm.dec to face than TES thus it remains here.

The fact that we had Burn.dec/Meerfolk/etc. listed as a DtB for ages and that there's a current discussion about the parameters to define a DtB in the Community Section of the forum might give a clue, that being listed as a DtB isn't all that important.

[SaberTooth]

lemnear is a tes player, so i cant blame him for his vision about storm combo. i play both decks and when i play tes, some hands makes me think that ant is the way to go XDD, but well, i won a candelabra of tawnos playing tes

Anyway, the think is that ant and tnt are equally good. is a metagame choice and nothing else

[Pelikanudo]

It would be really helpful if you stop the habit of making bold statement about what I ever tested or not. Also, if you can't understand hyperbole (e.g.: I don't think that every person you ever met is an idiot), feel free to skip my posts.



Look it up, then. I already wrote it: the clunky multi-BW/IT hands, strange Brainstorms, a bit harder decision trees and Chrome Mox alone would be enough, but the FACT THAT TES ISN'T A DTB may quench your curiosity.
But I may be mistaken. After all, what is good and what's not is personal opinion, right?


No, I chose to do so because I don't like pompous people.

/menses

In favor of Lemnear

TES is much more difficult to play than ANT, this is a fact, the reason - you have a much larger decisión tree,
I've won several Tournaments with ANT (more small than big tournaments) and not many with TES, Thats why when gitaxian appeared made TES much better as the decisión tree is smaller, At first I did not want to play Gitaxian for this same reason, In order to play TES perfectly you need to have a brain that can memorize all possibles plays OR have been played TES for years, you also need to 'smell' your opponent.

I've won tournaments with DDFT, topeitghted in a 80 people with DDFT, but not yet with TES,
On difficult matter for me: TES > DDFT > ANT, at least for me, DDFT once you know the piles is quite easy to play.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

The DtB section on TheSource isn't defined by a decks strength and Individual performance but indicates trends and the frequency you'll face the deck. ANT is a much more likely storm.dec to face than TES thus it remains here.

The fact that we had Burn.dec/Meerfolk/etc. listed as a DtB for ages and that there's a current discussion about the parameters to define a DtB in the Community Section of the forum might give a clue, that being listed as a DtB isn't all that important.

Why do you nitpick up just one parameter I defined? Also, check "why Doomsday sucks" thread to learn about the "unforgiving" and "hard to master" decks. Sadly, I must quote IBA, but the reason why some of the decks are not played / don't Top8 is the fact that they're... unforgiving, hard to master and bad.

Btw, I didn't even wrote that TES is bad, as you still try to put into my keyboard. I wrote it's worse than ANT, not bad per se. In fact I assume TES a Tier 1,5 deck. Tier 2 at worst.


On sounds and such:
You still ask for a sound reasoning on my lands. I already wrote two times that (mainly when you're on the play) you may easily go for the non-basics because the opponent can't start wasting (even if he starts with Waste, which isn't 100% guaranteed; it's neither a basic land nor Relentless Rats) you without deploying threats and/or keeping mana open for Pierce/Snare/REB/Stifle. The only reason why I tinker with an idea of keeping one basic in (read: Island) are those hands (namely when on draw) where we open with a sole fetch. So or so, fetching an Island lets you Ponder/BS on turn 1, then again on turn 2 (and keep the second fetch uncracked in case you fear Waste) and then burst on turn 3. So yes, I think I'll use 4 Delta, 4 Tarn, 1 Island, 6 nonbasics (alternatively 2 Tarn + 2 Mire to be able to fetch Bayou, but I much more like the ability to sell the Mires), but that's about that. On the Gem Mine affair: we can't fetch the land, so there's little gain in it's 5-color mana ability, as we don't see it often enough. I'd rather have my lands that tap for less mana (but I may search the necessary one with a fetchland) and I'd rather don't use (many) basics so that I may have access to any color I need, which is crucial esp. post-sb, when you need green for your sb cards, etc. (That's also the reason why I hesitate to cut Bayou. But I'm not willing to move it into sb to save slots.)

On tests:
You are mistaken by the fact that I wrote "lets see what happens" concerning the tourney that starts tomorrow evening. This doesn't mean that this setting is untested. First of all, Slosh tested it and plays it without much trouble. I wasn't at a tournament with it yet (hence the "lets see..." phrase), but a) I tested it a lot (there's a miraculous program called Magic:the Workstation that lets you test over the internet; it's completely free and you may spend hours with friends... hey, even with randoms - but in this case remember to immediatelly quit any person that greets you "ciao" or "salut".) and b) I believe in what Slosh says and to his experience. I know that it might make you jealous (what other reason would be to try to convince me that it's you not Slosh - or anyone else out of all the internet alter egos that frequent this site -, who's right). Look: I may trust anyone I wish to and I decided to trust to (and try) Slosh's approach.

On lands:
Basically one may try the "old" lands composition of the "old" decks (I mainly think of UBr ANT/Iggy Pop) that sports up to three basics and dodges Waste like a champ. But I don't feel comfortable with me not having access to colored mana in the "new" lists that incorporate several colored spells esp. in post-board games. For the reasons stated above (and also as an offer to you) I decided to run at least the miser's Island so that I'm not stuck landless when I open with the infamous one-lander and Ponder bricks. Imagine it's fetchable GemMine.

As for DRS (and trust me, this is painful to write, cause everybody knows how to play around him and still everybody loses to him/her/whatever-its-gender sometimes.):
You act like DRS shortcut stands for Woodland Druid, but honestly, DRS has even more text all around him and none of it is a flavour one. In fact it has three abilities that use words "exile" and "graveyard" very close to each other. You may argue as hard as you can and pretend that you don't care of DRS (and thus look very pompous), but if you'd take a minute to read your own words, you'll realize that DRS at least forces you to rethink your usual play and change plans adequatelly, sometimes he even forces you to twiddle for turns until you got your double-IT hand or whatever - read: DRS does something. Which is hardly the same as "DRS does nothing". This is esp. true when they are on play and start with him turn 1; this way the guy (or girl) suppresses thresh, eats life total and generally does a lot to stop both AdN and PiF. Also, when we're at it: how come you're always having double-IT hand (and do not fear any opponents' counteracting), while they never have double DRS and sit on triple Swords? Because, you know, they may let you resolve PiF and then eat both the ITs and let you durdle with Ponder->Ponder->Preordain->BS->GP->loss to Norwood Ranger, all this while pretending that you even have mana for this stuff, because CRit doesn't have all the death metal skulls over it when you have three cards in gy, so you needed to sac LED to pay for PiF.

If you want to play the game where you name a combo, then I name one that stops it, then you name another one.. make a different thread. However, this point counterpoint thing is fucking pointless. And Deathrite Shaman is not Sanctuary Cat, go check them.


Take a look at my fucking reports in my sig to see how irrelevant DRS against storm are and save your "but, but, but you have no idea!" crap.
Dude, I don't fear DRS. Btw, when speaking of MtG, I fear nothing. Hey, I'm the person who takes a completely non-basics ANT to our lgs and goes home with Tundra tomorrow evening. But writing crap like you wrote above makes you look like it's you who knows about the ANT exactly the same as DRS does against it. (Now, I wanna see how you'll cope with this gimmick...)

[Final Fortune]

On sounds and such:
You still ask for a sound reasoning on my lands. I already wrote two times that (mainly when you're on the play) you may easily go for the non-basics because the opponent can't start wasting (even if he starts with Waste, which isn't 100% guaranteed; it's neither a basic land nor Relentless Rats) you without deploying threats and/or keeping mana open for Pierce/Snare/REB/Stifle. The only reason why I tinker with an idea of keeping one basic in (read: Island) are those hands (namely when on draw) where we open with a sole fetch. So or so, fetching an Island lets you Ponder/BS on turn 1, then again on turn 2 (and keep the second fetch uncracked in case you fear Waste) and then burst on turn 3. So yes, I think I'll use 4 Delta, 4 Tarn, 1 Island, 6 nonbasics (alternatively 2 Tarn + 2 Mire to be able to fetch Bayou, but I much more like the ability to sell the Mires), but that's about that. On the Gem Mine affair: we can't fetch the land, so there's little gain in it's 5-color mana ability, as we don't see it often enough. I'd rather have my lands that tap for less mana (but I may search the necessary one with a fetchland) and I'd rather don't use (many) basics so that I may have access to any color I need, which is crucial esp. post-sb, when you need green for your sb cards, etc. (That's also the reason why I hesitate to cut Bayou. But I'm not willing to move it into sb to save slots.)

On tests:
You are mistaken by the fact that I wrote "lets see what happens" concerning the tourney that starts tomorrow evening. This doesn't mean that this setting is untested. First of all, Slosh tested it and plays it without much trouble. I wasn't at a tournament with it yet (hence the "lets see..." phrase), but a) I tested it a lot (there's a miraculous program called Magic:the Workstation that lets you test over the internet; it's completely free and you may spend hours with friends... hey, even with randoms - but in this case remember to immediatelly quit any person that greets you "ciao" or "salut".) and b) I believe in what Slosh says and to his experience. I know that it might make you jealous (what other reason would be to try to convince me that it's you not Slosh - or anyone else out of all the internet alter egos that frequent this site -, who's right). Look: I may trust anyone I wish to and I decided to trust to (and try) Slosh's approach.

On lands:
Basically one may try the "old" lands composition of the "old" decks (I mainly think of UBr ANT/Iggy Pop) that sports up to three basics and dodges Waste like a champ. But I don't feel comfortable with me not having access to colored mana in the "new" lists that incorporate several colored spells esp. in post-board games. For the reasons stated above (and also as an offer to you) I decided to run at least the miser's Island so that I'm not stuck landless when I open with the infamous one-lander and Ponder bricks. Imagine it's fetchable GemMine.


I don't agree with either of you, not only are Badlands, Tropical Island and Bayou a liability in the MD but they're also completely unnecessary, provided you're not playing Burning Wish, the only red cards in your deck are Past in Flames and Empty Warrens and the only green cards in your deck are SBed. Considering SB space in Storm decks is abundant, again provided your not playing Burning Wish, there's no reason to decrease your win percentage vs Wasteland game 1 just in order to save on SB space.

Gemstone Mine is also bad, it's a Wasteland target and it destroys itself after three turns in a deck that frequently plays past turn three vs aggro-control or control in order to provide access to red mana, which you need for at most 2 cards that both come at the end of an Infernal Tutor and Lion's Eye Diamond activation anyway, and green mana, which you don't need until you SB in Xantid Swarm and/or Abrupt Decay of which you don't SB either vs any deck with Wasteland regardless.

In other news, does any one else think Personal Tutor is borderline playable?

[Lemnear]

lemnear is a tes player, so i cant blame him for his vision about storm combo.

In all honest, just because I'm used to write the HotS-reports piloting TES doesn't mean I do/did not play all previous/current iterations of storm. I'm very familiar with UBr ANT and am amused by the Return of LDV which was a direct substitute for Mystical right after it's banning and sleeve it up here and there for larger tournaments. I do play TRS Doomsday and Elves too. Marking me a TES fanatic is far from the truth.

Choosing the most complex storm iteration just made sense to write in-depths reports and guides about.

[Rampart]

In other news, does any one else think Personal Tutor is borderline playable?

If Personal Tutor was a instant it would be borderline playable. The ability to tutor for a utility card during your upkeep is pretty good. But the fact is its a sorcery which means that you have to pass your turn in general before you have access to the card you tutor for and it doesn't normally build storm for you. I would rather just play with preordain or a singleton Snapcaster mage.

[apistat_commander]

That's more or less acceptable, but I find 2 Underground Sea, 1 Volcanic Island, 2 Island, 1 Swamp and then all U/G Fetchlands with a Tropical Island and a Bayou in the SB is generally more reliable because in the 16 cantrip version of the deck you want to be able to Island, Cantrip. Island, Cantrip, Cantrip thru' Wasteland and win on your third turn as your go to play. You rarely lead with Duress or Cabal Therapy in the cantrip build, at least in game one, instead you lead with Pre-Ordain or Ponder into a Gitaxian Probe by turn 2 and then you know whether or not you need to fetch the Swamp in order to play thru' a counter wall + the possibility of Wasteland over multiple turns.

Yeah, I want to fetch a basic Island most of the time. That is the beauty of the 16-cantrip version. You get to fetch basics then cantrip every turn FTW. So is this what you are running:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Bloodstained Mire/Scalding Tarn/etc.
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Swamp

Then swapping in a Trop and Bayou for two fetches or fetch/Island post board?

Speaking of post-board, I have some questions about what people are boarding out. Here is how I generally view things:

- Preordain: These are the "extra" cantrips. I shave these when I want my full set of Probes and discard (so most blue decks), but something else from the board.

- Gitaxian Probe: These are less useful against decks without counters. They do make Cabal Therapy better but beyond that I would rather have Chain of Vapor/Abrupt Decay. I cut these against decks bringing in permanent based hate.

- Duress: I cut these when I know my opponent is bringing in creature-based permanent hate (Maverick, DnT). However I might leave these in against something like Jund, which is mostly hoping to disrupt you with discard.

[SaberTooth]

In all honest, just because I'm used to write the HotS-reports piloting TES doesn't mean I do/did not play all previous/current iterations of storm. I'm very familiar with UBr ANT and am amused by the Return of LDV which was a direct substitute for Mystical right after it's banning and sleeve it up here and there for larger tournaments. I do play TRS Doomsday and Elves too. Marking me a TES fanatic is far from the truth.

Choosing the most complex storm iteration just made sense to write in-depths reports and guides about.

Maybe, but your "DRS is nothing" argument is strange. It's easy to play around a DRS theorically, but in real games is more difficult. For example, playing ANT i need a tutor chain or ad nauseam to evade the little elf (going off with pif is possible too of course, but you need a lot o cards), but the decks that runs DRS are packed with a lot of discard, so a turn 1 DRS and a turn 2 Hymn is a very powerful play against ant that is a slower combo than tes, and is a very common play for jund for example. Again, of course Ant can beat a DRS, but there are escenarios where is not that easy.

On build's topic, i think that the real problem is that there is a little space to discuss the card choices because the decklist are so tight

[Lemnear]

Maybe, but your "DRS is nothing" argument is strange. It's easy to play around a DRS theorically, but in real games is more difficult. For example, playing ANT i need a tutor chain or ad nauseam to evade the little elf (going off with pif is possible too of course, but you need a lot o cards), but the decks that runs DRS are packed with a lot of discard, so a turn 1 DRS and a turn 2 Hymn is a very powerful play against ant that is a slower combo than tes, and is a very common play for jund for example. Again, of course Ant can beat a DRS, but there are escenarios where is not that easy.

On build's topic, i think that the real problem is that there is a little space to discuss the card choices because the decklist are so tight

Tbh about 40% of my games against DRS are with TES due to my lack of time to play in general and for the HotS reports and the lil' Elf is a much lesser Problem for the 5c storm if you AN/EtW/DR in the first 3 turns and are less depending on PIF.

Even if I'd love to take that fact and the omnipresence of DRS to label TES the superior choice for a meta packed with Discard and 1cc Hybrid mana graveyard hate, I want to ignore those games and focus on the recent experience piloting UBr ANT (which I do if I expect facing a shitload of mana denial in a meta or am too tired to navigate Wishes for 7+ rounds after a day at work).

I'm used to fetch a Basic Island (that's why I was so biased to see a list without it but a lot of non-blue Duals instead) and just play several cantrips per turn (playing 16-cantrips), floating my biz ontop of my library and gather my mana in hand or on board. Doing this for 3-4 turns should fill your grave to t.hold and beyond, despite an active DRS. All you have to do then is drawing your floated Infernal, play out all your mana and go for the PIF loop and/or Tutor-chain.

Considering DRS alone, that's 6 lost life and 3 removed cards. Sure we won't discuss variations like enabling a turn 3 Bloodbraid Elf into Hymn, but aside the 3 removed cards, which can be negated within the 16-cantrip Version of ANT very easily, he did not harm you more than a Kird Ape which I hyperboled into "doing nothing" as long as he's not Part of a triangle paired with a flurry of discard (Taking all your mana) and increased damage with BBE, Tarmogoyf, an Army of Elves and Shardless Agent which would distract us from the initial question.

Being on the dealing (BGw Elves) and receiving (TES, UBr ANT, TRS Doomsday) end of DRS I dare to disagree with It being itself a real gamebreaker in the storm matchup.




@Secretly.A.Bee

Classy post -.-

[Mindlash]

You've wasted a nice chance that I'll ever read your reports just by the fact that you act like a jilted lover.
...(or the ability to sculpt your hand for X turns to get and keep the double Tutor AND acceleration AND maybe even protection)....

Let me get this right...you turn something like this:


cast Infernal->Infernal->PIF

which is by all means a simple tutorchain which requires 2 more mana for each additional active DRS into something like:


sometimes he even forces you to twiddle for turns until you got your double-IT hand

and that:


how come you're always having double-IT hand

neither of which is required, while posting stuff like:


As for DRS (and trust me, this is painful to write, cause everybody knows how to play around him and still everybody loses to him/her/whatever-its-gender sometimes.)

and this


who knows about the ANT exactly the same as DRS does against it

I'm starting to think you are just trying to troll us all.
If the things you posted are meant serious you might take a look at Carsten's latest Article as it is focused on helping people get used to the deck.
No offense...

Greetings Chris

[Secretly.A.Bee]

@Secretly.A.Bee

Classy post -.-

Thanks, I've been reading yours and I gotta say you wouldn't know "classy" if it kicked you in the groin.

As to a second Tendrils, I think it's a wonderful choice. Double tendrils is awesome in the situations being discussed currently (DRS, discard/having ToA in your hand, disallowing you from your win-turn). Really turns that singleton BWish I use into a gem.

-ABC

[Lemnear]

Thanks, I've been reading yours and I gotta say you wouldn't know "classy" if it kicked you in the groin.

As to a second Tendrils, I think it's a wonderful choice. Double tendrils is awesome in the situations being discussed currently (DRS, discard/having ToA in your hand, disallowing you from your win-turn). Really turns that singleton BWish I use into a gem.

-ABC

Unlike my fellow discussion Partner and me, you manage to spend a whole Paragraph and more than 100 words without targeting the topic instead of the user.

I doubt that Double Tendrils is any good outside of the discard-and-exile-scenario to justify running 2 rather than a single EtW :/


@Mindlash

Props for the effort to pick up all those quotes.

[Final Fortune]

Yeah, I want to fetch a basic Island most of the time. That is the beauty of the 16-cantrip version. You get to fetch basics then cantrip every turn FTW. So is this what you are running:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Bloodstained Mire/Scalding Tarn/etc.
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Swamp

Then swapping in a Trop and Bayou for two fetches or fetch/Island post board?

Speaking of post-board, I have some questions about what people are boarding out. Here is how I generally view things:

- Preordain: These are the "extra" cantrips. I shave these when I want my full set of Probes and discard (so most blue decks), but something else from the board.

- Gitaxian Probe: These are less useful against decks without counters. They do make Cabal Therapy better but beyond that I would rather have Chain of Vapor/Abrupt Decay. I cut these against decks bringing in permanent based hate.

- Duress: I cut these when I know my opponent is bringing in creature-based permanent hate (Maverick, DnT). However I might leave these in against something like Jund, which is mostly hoping to disrupt you with discard.

I don't use a 9th Fetchland, the Abrupt Decays and lands are usually SBed in for otherwise dead disruption, vs Goblins + Thalia for instance there's no reason to keep 3 Duress and 4 Cabal Therapy in the deck while vs Miracles and Counterebalance you can substitute an Island and a Swamp for a Tropical Island and a Bayou because they don't play Wasteland.

I cut Gitaxian Probe when I've either seen the opponent's MD hate game 1, for instance Thalia or Teeg, or I've seen the opponent's SB hate game 2, for instance Chalice of the Void or Thorn of Amathyst, where I can then utilize Cabal Therapy with more accurate information.

I don't SB out Pre-Ordain as much as other people seem to, I prefer it to Ponder quite often because I tend to lead with Fetchlands vs Wasteland decks so the guaranteed card filtering via Scry is more consistent.

@Lemnear

How do you justify comparing DRS vs TES and DRS vs ANT and generalize that it does nothing vs the archetype as a whole? Losing cards in your graveyard and taking 2 damage is a problem for a deck with Cabal Ritual, and regardless of whether or not the problem is surmountable speaking in platitutdes just makes you look ignorant.

As it is, after having cut Ad Nauseam, I'm strongly considering Thoughtseize over Duress just to be able to blindly hit Thalia or Vendilion Clique.

[Lemnear]

How do you justify comparing DRS vs TES and DRS vs ANT and generalize that it does nothing vs the archetype as a whole? Losing cards in your graveyard and taking 2 damage is a problem for a deck with Cabal Ritual, and regardless of whether or not the problem is surmountable speaking in platitutdes just makes you look ignorant.

I DID differ TES and ANT in regards to DRS and played against DRS with the later and already explained my points about the 2 damage and 1 exiled card per turn, if you just chain cantrips for 2-3 turns to fill your graveyard (and that all from the perspective of ANT, like the Double-IT-topic Mindlash picked up). While the card can sure be an annoyance, DRS is far from being a gamebreaker or we can discuss Knight of the Reliquary -> Bojuka Bog out of Maverick and Crop Rotation -> Bog out of Elves too and due to my experience the issue with DRS is a minor one so I used the hyperbole to comment on that.

[Mindlash]

I don't use a 9th Fetchland, the Abrupt Decays and lands are usually SBed in for otherwise dead disruption, vs Goblins + Thalia for instance there's no reason to keep 3 Duress and 4 Cabal Therapy in the deck while vs Miracles and Counterebalance you can substitute an Island and a Swamp for a Tropical Island and a Bayou because they don't play Wasteland.

I cut Gitaxian Probe when I've either seen the opponent's MD hate game 1, for instance Thalia or Teeg, or I've seen the opponent's SB hate game 2, for instance Chalice of the Void or Thorn of Amathyst, where I can then utilize Cabal Therapy with more accurate information.

I don't SB out Pre-Ordain as much as other people seem to, I prefer it to Ponder quite often because I tend to lead with Fetchlands vs Wasteland decks so the guaranteed card filtering via Scry is more consistent.

@Lemnear

How do you justify comparing DRS vs TES and DRS vs ANT and generalize that it does nothing vs the archetype as a whole? Losing cards in your graveyard and taking 2 damage is a problem for a deck with Cabal Ritual, and regardless of whether or not the problem is surmountable speaking in platitutdes just makes you look ignorant.

As it is, after having cut Ad Nauseam, I'm strongly considering Thoughtseize over Duress just to be able to blindly hit Thalia or Vendilion Clique.

Hm...mentioning the 2 from DRS damage while advocating Thoughtseize seems like a problem to?!
He also said that he plays not TES only and the way to beat DRS was aimed at ANT. At least it works for ANT. TES has some more options (obviously).


@Mindlash
Props for the effort to pick up all those quotes.


Well no problem :-) I just can't stand peeps talk shit and twist other peeps words. This thread gets a pain in the ass more and more.
People claim some weird things and stuff...I had to re-read my post like ten times cause I thought: well...it is tutor chain?! But this other guy..he can't be that dumb can he?!
Sometimes I really get confused by this shit...

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Let me get this right...
I'm starting to think you are just trying to troll us all.
If the things you posted are meant serious you might take a look at Carsten's latest Article as it is focused on helping people get used to the deck.
No offense...

Greetings Chris
I was trying hard to understand what's your point, but then I gave up. So, DRS is new Sanctuary Cat. I wish I new it before I bought them...
Look, double IT FTW may mean anything. If you have mana and cards available for IT chain, then DRS does nothing. If, for whatever the reason you need to play PiF combo (e.g. been hit by BSkull), then the fact that DRS exiles card may be of importance. (And in this case you need two ITs unless you wish to rely on PiFed cantrips... which might be exiled on previous turns.) This might become problem when games last longer, because DRSx2 eat your grave, while Hymn+stuff eats your hand and Decays hits onto-the-battlefield sandbagged LEDs and Pierces screw your cantrips/Rituals or you know whatever the gold fish decided to do.
Basically I was opposing Lemnears statement that DRS does nothing against PiF. Even if it was a hyperbole (which is unlikely, go look up his vehemence on this matter), it still isn't true, because PiF is a graveyard engine and DRS hits cards in gy. Pedobear approved.



Losing cards in your graveyard and taking 2 damage is a problem for a deck with Cabal Ritual, and regardless of whether or not the problem is surmountable speaking in platitutdes just makes you look ignorant.
I'd sig it.


Subject has nothing more to add to the point testified, he agrees with the protocol, and he leaves in a stable condition.

[Mindlash]

I was trying hard to understand what's your point, but then I gave up. So, DRS is new Sanctuary Cat. I wish I new it before I bought them...
Look, double IT FTW may mean anything. If you have mana and cards available for IT chain, then DRS does nothing. If, for whatever the reason you need to play PiF combo (e.g. been hit by BSkull), then the fact that DRS exiles card may be of importance. (And in this case you need two ITs unless you wish to rely on PiFed cantrips... which might be exiled on previous turns.) This might become problem when games last longer, because DRSx2 eat your grave, while Hymn+stuff eats your hand and Decays hits onto-the-battlefield sandbagged LEDs and Pierces screw your cantrips/Rituals or you know whatever the gold fish decided to do.
Basically I was opposing Lemnears statement that DRS does nothing against PiF. Even if it was a hyperbole (which is unlikely, go look up his vehemence on this matter), it still isn't true, because PiF is a graveyard engine and DRS hits cards in gy. Pedobear approved.



I'd sig it.


Subject has nothing more to add to the point testified, he agrees with the protocol, and he leaves in a stable condition.

If you are forced for whatever reason: DRS does nothing against PiF...never! It just can't because of the fucking rulebook and priorities if you play it right!
And you don't tutorchain into win and don't start with all tutors in hand....you tutor into tutor into pif (add 2 mana and 1 tutor in deck for an active DRS)....damn whats wrong with you? How is that hard to achieve?!
Nobody has a problem with you beeing new to storm...the problem is you acting like a dick...thats all...

[Will_L]

I know this is sort of futile since all of these Storm lists are so nailed down and there is little wiggle room... However, I am still really new to the deck and would like to hear what people think about the 75 I've decided on. I've decided on UBr ANT because I really like the idea of more business in the form of another 2 mana tutor. Also... You guys are all here arguing with each other anyway, you might as well tell me what you think of my deck while you're here :P

Exactly how horrible is the singleton Telemin Performance idea? I have never seen anyone do it and it is really tempting to mise blowouts without needing Storm, like if your hand gets stripped and you rip a BT.


x4 Brainstorm
x4 Ponder
x4 Gitaxian Probe
x2 Preordain

x4 Cabal Ritual
x4 Dark Ritual

x4 Duress
x3 Cabal Therapy

x4 Infernal Tutor
x2 Burning Wish
x1 Past in Flames
x1 Ad Nauseum
x1 Tendrils of Agony

x4 Lion's Eye Diamond
x4 Lotus Petal

x4 Polluted Delta
x3 Scalding Tarn
x1 Bloodstained Mire
x2 Underground Sea
x1 Badlands
x1 Volcanic Island
x1 Swamp
x1 Island

*SB*

x1 Tropical Island
x2 Dread of Night
x3 Xantid Swarm
x3 Abrupt Decay
x2 Chain of Vapor
x1 Tendrils of Agony
x1 Telemin Performance
x1 Emtpy the Warrens
x1 Thoughtseize

[Bed Decks Palyer]

If you are forced for whatever reason: DRS does nothing against PiF...never! It just can't because of the fucking rulebook and priorities if you play it right!
If they take out the ITs with PiF on stack, you can't playthem, amirite? check rulebook, you little twit.
[awaits the bash out "but you don't need two ITs, you just tutor chain"]



And you don't tutorchain into win and don't start with all tutors in hand....you tutor into tutor into pif (add 2 mana and 1 tutor in deck for an active DRS)
Which clearly means that DRS DOES something as he forces you to make a different play. And sometimes (against a real opponent, not your kindergarten brother), this may be difference betwen winning and losing.


....damn whats wrong with you? How is that hard to achieve?!
Are you seriously asking me why there is trouble to achieve something in a non-goldfish world?



Nobody has a problem with me beeing new to storm...the problem is I am acting like a dick...thats all...
Fixed for you.
Btw, you idiot, I really know how to play IT chains and I really won through DRS more times than you'd get laid. But reading statements like "DRS does nothing" when it clearly does something makes me wonder whom are those ppl behind their profiles.

Also, find a girl. It'll help you to calm down.


edit:

x1 Telemin Performance
I played some :b::b::b: sorcery that reads "remove up to three cards from their library" and it had massive kicker and then it took out seven or so. I'm not sure if this card is better, but basically I'm not really thrilled of both of them.

[JamieW89]

My opinion on some of the cards discussed:

I don't really see a reason for Badlands with only Past in Flames (and possibly an Empty somewhere). The only time I'd consider it is if I was playing no green SB and several EtW in the board.
I can live with 1 green dual MD & 1 SB or with 1-2 SB and none main depending on your sb space.
Someone said basics had no use; reallllly? I would never play less than 1 Island and hardly ever less than 1 swamp in ANT.
I´m not a fan of Gemstone Mines since much of ANT´s strength comes from strong cantrips, part of which is derived from a lot of fetchlands.
All in all I like 1 Island, 1 Swamp, 2 Sea, 1 Volc (I only cut it in UBw(g) which isn't worth it atm anyways), 9 Fetch and then a fetch/2nd island/green dual as 15th/16th lands depending on the meta and your sb plans. The 1st Mox as 16th land (or 15th in a Wish build) is not the worst, but I'd rather stay away from that card.

I would only board Defense Grid if I was playing chant effects, it never quite convinced me in a UB(r) build.
Xantid Swarm on the other hand is a card I really like if I expect SnT decks (Or better: Counters + Leyline decks) and Merfolk.
As for the Telemin Performance/Sadistic Sacrament/Extract, only play them when you expect loads of combo (in which case a non-white combo deck is a bad meta choice).

While I think Burning Wish is insane in Doomsday and good in TES I find it mediocre in ANT since having to to BW->GT->PiF->GT for the preferred engine is quite weak. I like 1-2 Grim Tutor over 4 Preordain myself but the 16 cantrip version is definately not bad. I haven't tested enough LDV to give a real opinion, but usually the card exites me and then dissapoints in testing (mainly tried to make UB DDFT builds work).
I think Personal Tutor is close to playable in UB Doomsday, but not anywhere near there in ANT, I'd much rather have Grim Tutor here.

I don't think Shaman is a consideration for us, since it turns dead cards on (and it takes too much space in the board for what it does imo). It is definately not "nothing" against us either (although it basicly is nothing versus TES). Yes, we can frequently win around it. But it puts a strain on my options more often than I'd like.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I haven't tested enough LDV to give a real opinion, but usually the card exites me and then dissapoints in testing (mainly tried to make UB DDFT builds work).
What's your testing ground? I find it extremely annoying (especially for the opponent) to play with this card on MWS, thus I didn't test it much.



I think Personal Tutor is close to playable in UB Doomsday, but not anywhere near there in ANT, I'd much rather have Grim Tutor here.
Maybe in 16 cantrips it may be good. IDK, I played 16 cantrips just for a while, because I had bad luck with it, always just durdling and durdling, unable to find anything.



I don't think Shaman is a consideration for us, since it turns dead cards on (and it takes too much space in the board for what it does imo). It is definately not "nothing" against us either (although it basicly is nothing versus TES). Yes, we can frequently win around it. But it puts a strain on my options more often than I'd like.
Exactly my thoughts. But seen how this makes some ppl mad, I'd rather admit that he it does nothing, before Mindlash collapses.

[Mindlash]

If they take out the ITs with PiF on stack, you can't playthem, amirite? check rulebook, you little twit.
[awaits the bash out "but you don't need two ITs, you just tutor chain"]



Which clearly means that DRS DOES something as he forces you to make a different play. And sometimes (against a real opponent, not your kindergarten brother), this may be difference betwen winning and losing.


Are you seriously asking me why there is trouble to achieve something in a non-goldfish world?



Fixed for you.
Btw, you idiot, I really know how to play IT chains and I really won through DRS more times than you'd get laid. But reading statements like "DRS does nothing" when it clearly does something makes me wonder whom are those ppl behind their profiles.

Also, find a girl. It'll help you to calm down.


edit:

I played some :b::b::b: sorcery that reads "remove up to three cards from their library" and it had massive kicker and then it took out seven or so. I'm not sure if this card is better, but basically I'm not really thrilled of both of them.

It's so cute seeing you in rage...calm down bro. It is not my problem, if you are having problems with DRS :-) Going down to insult me in RL shows your real skill in magic as well as in argumentation. Got me there...I give up :-/
And quit your goldfishin shit pls...no one who can play the deck and should be considered an equal discussion partner should be goldfishin anyways...so stop insulting us around the corner.
God dammit...the Italian back in time could at least play the deck without problems without bragging like a child posting shit or like they are menstruating....

[Bed Decks Palyer]

It's so cute seeing you in rage...calm down bro. It is not my problem, if you are having problems with DRS :-) Going down to insult me in RL shows your real skill in magic as well as in argumentation. Got me there...I give up :-/
And quit your goldfishin shit pls...no one who can play the deck and should be considered an equal discussion partner should be goldfishin anyways...so stop insulting us around the corner.
God dammit...the Italian back in time could at least play the deck without problems without bragging like a child posting shit or like they are menstruating....
You started with the "D" word, so eat your own medicine. Also, I don't brag about DRS and I mainly don't care of the card, and if you could read, you'd already notice it. But what I dislike is that people here act like DRS has no ability, which is definitely not true and sometimes these abilities are annoying. Thus I made some examples when they may matter - not that I always lose to them and then gonna cry to my mama.
If you fail to understand this, you may just as well fuck off since then you'd be much better discussion partner than now.

[Lemnear]

I was trying hard to understand what's your point, but then I gave up. So, DRS is new Sanctuary Cat. I wish I new it before I bought them...
Look, double IT FTW may mean anything. If you have mana and cards available for IT chain, then DRS does nothing. If, for whatever the reason you need to play PiF combo (e.g. been hit by BSkull), then the fact that DRS exiles card may be of importance. (And in this case you need two ITs unless you wish to rely on PiFed cantrips... which might be exiled on previous turns.) This might become problem when games last longer, because DRSx2 eat your grave, while Hymn+stuff eats your hand and Decays hits onto-the-battlefield sandbagged LEDs and Pierces screw your cantrips/Rituals or you know whatever the gold fish decided to do.
Basically I was opposing Lemnears statement that DRS does nothing against PiF. Even if it was a hyperbole (which is unlikely, go look up his vehemence on this matter), it still isn't true, because PiF is a graveyard engine and DRS hits cards in gy. Pedobear approved.

Amazing, how you prepare to manouver yourself in a position with all those cards active even if I can't come up with a current metagame deck which runs Pierce + Hymn. Reality is somewhere between goldfishing and creating such scenarios.

I have no clue why a simple hyperbole I picked to describe the low impact DRS had in the ANT Matches I played, caused so much hatred.

I seriously doubt anyone would have the Balls insult me that way face to face ;)

[Asthereal]

Stop acting like babies, both of you.

1. We're on combo. It's a risky strategy and if the opponent draws a God hand, we just lose. No tuning or mad play skill can prevent that. So don't waste your time trying to figure out how to beat FoW, FoW, Pierce, Hymn, Deathrite, Deathrite, Land, Land or stuff like that.
2. Goldfishing is very useful to get a general idea of what a combo deck is capable of (familiarizing yourself with a list) and helps a lot to tune a mana curve. A small kid from Nijmegen had only a couple of hours goldfishing with TES as combo experience, but went on to reach the finals of the Dutch Nationals last fall. Goldfish that! But proper play testing and tournament practice of course help more to figure out the finesse of the deck.
3. Deathrite Shaman is a nuisance. If you are on the EtW plan, you might lose to it. If you cantrip forever, you might lose to it. But most of the time you will be able to play around it just fine. Stuff like Thalia or an active Liliana are much more dangerous.
4. Did I really read about the idea of adding Deathrite to ANT itself? That's just rediculous. It makes your deck slower and less consistent in going off. Also it makes opposing creature removal relevant. Why on earth would you want that?

[Tombstalker]

Whoa looks like this is ringside! At least you guys sparked some non BW discussion.

While I have been beaten by DRS before I must say it doesn't put near the pressure that t1 mom brings.

On additional tutors I've been dedicating more attention to LDV lately and I agree with an earlier comment that tops plus vault is very good. Vault takes some preparation but now that I'm used to the thought processes it's damn powerful. Taking this further vault and CoV are great together, which leads me to DRS and even other single hate pieces. I believe LDV + top + CoV main is what we want to be doing right now in UBr storm. It's so natural for the deck, preserves the more resilient manabase and facilitates wins without the graveyard. EtW vs ad naus depends but both should be in our 75.

I've never tried personal tutor but I can see it being useful in light of recent performances by LDV. Only issue is if it's better than another LDV since that is cast EoT so actually costs less than PT. That and it can't tutor CoV for my list. Plus is it can more easily allow you to go off the same turn and provides a shuffle effect. I would be interested in experiences since 2 LDV in hand is far worse than 2 IT and I'd wager worse than LDV +PT (reason for the split?).

Telemin performance I just don't get would you mind elaborating? Are you trying to deck yourself for PiF or deck them? What's the appeal over ad nauseam which is on color?

Posting from my phone..

[jtos84]

Deathrite shaman by itself is not a big problem is the life total is high. Basically it is just pressuring the pif line of play, so you may have to opt for the ad nauseum. I would not call it a very strong threat, but it is something. Its probably less good against storm than it is against reanimator.

I think TES is a very good deck, but I was wondering if there are meta games where ANT is better than TES and vice versa?

That question got me thinking of possibilities, so I looked at some tournament reports. Burning wish and cabal therapy numbers have increased to put it plainly and without making a distinction of two different decks. Death and Taxes has increased its top 8 finishes and Maverick is still putting up strong numbers, so this is probably why cabal therapy and burning wish have seen more top 16 finishes. I think it would be hard to use less than four duress in a metagame so full of blue. I also think since tokens have not been on the seen for a while the engineered explosives and pernicious deeds have not been played as much making empty the warrens better.

Four maindeck thalias is still much less than ten main deck counter spells, so it would be hard for me to cut duress in favor of playing more cabal therapies in the main. I use one in the s/b. They are still going to bring in mindbreak trap, so that will possibly cause you to dig for more discard after a cabal therapy. The numbers are hard justify keeping the duresses in. I think I normally keep in two. I also can't really imagine trying to play without a massacre.

Silence can solve some problems, but you are left with much less information. I would think the show and tell matchup would be difficult. I have played tes and versions of ant with burning wishes, but it has been many years.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Amazing, how you prepare to manouver yourself in a position with all those cards active even if I can't come up with a current metagame deck which runs Pierce + Hymn. Reality is somewhere between goldfishing and creating such scenarios.

I have no clue why a simple hyperbole I picked to describe the low impact DRS had in the ANT Matches I played, caused so much hatred.
Oh, I didn't know that all these spells must be in a same deck! Also, you started to be anal about DRS, so where's the trouble.
There's no hatred, dude.



I seriously doubt anyone would have the Balls insult me that way face to face ;)
Yes, I think that none of you would dare to insult me face to face. In fact I think you'd start to shit concrete the moment I'd enter the same room. At least it's the usual reaction.

[Will_L]

Telemin performance I just don't get would you mind elaborating? Are you trying to deck yourself for PiF or deck them? What's the appeal over ad nauseam which is on color?

I want to wish for it in the Storm mirror and against High Tide. It seems sort of marginal but I play in area with a good amount of combo so I was thinking of trying it out the next tournament I go to.

It definitely sucks that the opponent gets to see it coming and has a whole turn to react though...


I played some :b::b::b: sorcery that reads "remove up to three cards from their library" and it had massive kicker and then it took out seven or so. I'm not sure if this card is better, but basically I'm not really thrilled of both of them.

This is interesting too... But it doesn't instagib people the way Telemin Performance does. That might just be win more though, Sacrament is easier to cast and basically wins the Storm mirror if you take their MD Tendrils and any Burning Wishes or Empties.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I want to wish for it in the Storm mirror and against High Tide. It seems sort of marginal but I play in area with a good amount of combo so I was thinking of trying it out the next tournament I go to.

It definitely sucks that the opponent gets to see it coming and has a whole turn to react though...



This is interesting too... But it doesn't instagib people the way Telemin Performance does. That might just be win more though, Sacrament is easier to cast and basically wins the Storm mirror if you take their MD Tendrils and any Burning Wishes or Empties.
Sadly it does nothing after their EtW. Also, if they play 3-4 BW + ToA/EtW, you pretty much do nothing, unless you play it with kicker.
It was a funny card, but definitely not worthy a sb slot.
Oh, I also tried some similar card, it is also a BBB or 1BB card and it removes a card from their library and you may play it. Much more funny than really useful, but the one time I played opponents AdN or PiF or whatever, it was juicy.

[Tombstalker]

I see, it might be a fun way to steal a few games as a wish target so I'd be interested in hearing how it went just for laughs. The biggest issue is giving them a turn since it does nothing to the board state or their hand so they could combo off and kill you in response to your latent kill.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I see, it might be a fun way to steal a few games as a wish target so I'd be interested in hearing how it went just for laughs. The biggest issue is giving them a turn since it does nothing to the board state or their hand so they could combo off and kill you in response to your latent kill.
Basically it went like this: we exchanged Duresses and Therapies, than stared at each other while I drawn DRit than BW. I DRit+BW for Praetor's Grasp and played it. Seen how he plays double ToA, I took AdN and played it a (few) turn/s later. I think I won.

[jtos84]

I found out this morning deathrite shaman is a threat in elves. I was pretty tired when I was playing, but it showed me that wirewood symbiots and quirion rangers can make the deathrite shaman shut down the past in flames. I should have used ad nauseam, but I had not eaten and I was having a hard time thinking. I'm glad I saw this though.

[Nihil Credo]

I have issued Warnings to multiple people for the slapfights of the last few pages. More will follow if I see more of this bullshit flaming.

Don't post if you cannot discuss like an adult, especially not in the DTBF. Quick tip: "this idea is pretty retarded" is fine, "you must be pretty retarded" is not.

[Zombie]

I found out this morning deathrite shaman is a threat in elves. I was pretty tired when I was playing, but it showed me that wirewood symbiots and quirion rangers can make the deathrite shaman shut down the past in flames. I should have used ad nauseam, but I had not eaten and I was having a hard time thinking. I'm glad I saw this though.

It's good, no doubt, but pretty smalltime compared to Teeg, Ruric and Thorns. And going for AdN is probably even worse than going for PiF in this deck because ANT has to go deep quite often and that's when the DRS machinegun turns scary.

[davelin]

Deathrite shaman by itself is not a big problem is the life total is high. Basically it is just pressuring the pif line of play, so you may have to opt for the ad nauseum. I would not call it a very strong threat, but it is something. Its probably less good against storm than it is against reanimator.

I think TES is a very good deck, but I was wondering if there are meta games where ANT is better than TES and vice versa?


I'll throw my 2 cents on this topic since it may have gotten lost in the shuffle. ANT seems better in metas dominated by tempo strategies (RUG delver) because of its more stable manabase, although it has more Stifle-targets than TES (not sure if that is so much a thing anymore). TES I would say it better against metas dominated by combo since it's a faster combo deck than ANT and packs Silences which some other combo decks have a hard time against.

[Lemnear]

I'll throw my 2 cents on this topic since it may have gotten lost in the shuffle. ANT seems better in metas dominated by tempo strategies (RUG delver) because of its more stable manabase, although it has more Stifle-targets than TES (not sure if that is so much a thing anymore). TES I would say it better against metas dominated by combo since it's a faster combo deck than ANT and packs Silences which some other combo decks have a hard time against.

That's correct with the addition that TES really shines in a midrange-metagame. Deathblade, Maverick, JUND, Shardless BUG and such are all easy pray for TES

[LennonMarx]

That's correct with the addition that TES really shines in a midrange-metagame. Deathblade, Maverick, JUND, Shardless BUG and such are all easy pray for TES

I'm sure those decks are easier with TES than ANT, but those are all still good matchups for ANT, possible exception being Maverick, as it is a pretty big deal for TES to be able to win more easilly before the hate bears come online.

[bjholmes3]

New member here; hi everyone!

So, I've been playing 16-cantrips ANT for a little while online, and I've decided that I'm ready to build the deck IRL and go competitive. My goal is to place in a major within the next six months. The problem is, of course, that I don't have 1500 dollars just floating around to build the deck, lol. I've budgeted about 50 dollars a week, so I could really use some help building a budget ANT progressing into full-blown ANT after several months.

The main things I need help with are this: after I buy the cheap stuff (everything but lands and LED, really), what do I invest in next? My thoughts are Fetches, then LEDs, then duals. And, in the meantime, what do I need to make the deck usable? My thoughts on this are to build a temporary Sac Land Tendrils build, but I don't think that transitions as smoothly into ANT as I'd like.

I'm a good pilot, but not a very good deckbuilder, especially not for budget, so I could really use as much input as possible. Thanks so much!

[Tombstalker]

I think you have the order right. I imagine storm could even function ok without duals maybe 1 shock land our two although I haven't tried it. Honestly I would do whatever it takes too get the fetches and LEDs at once since the deck really needs these to function.

I remember reading a question a fan asked Slash once, he asked what would you recommend if I can't afford a Les Paul? Slash replied buy a used Les Paul.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

New member here; hi everyone!

So, I've been playing 16-cantrips ANT for a little while online, and I've decided that I'm ready to build the deck IRL and go competitive. My goal is to place in a major within the next six months. The problem is, of course, that I don't have 1500 dollars just floating around to build the deck, lol. I've budgeted about 50 dollars a week, so I could really use some help building a budget ANT progressing into full-blown ANT after several months.

The main things I need help with are this: after I buy the cheap stuff (everything but lands and LED, really), what do I invest in next? My thoughts are Fetches, then LEDs, then duals. And, in the meantime, what do I need to make the deck usable? My thoughts on this are to build a temporary Sac Land Tendrils build, but I don't think that transitions as smoothly into ANT as I'd like.

I'm a good pilot, but not a very good deckbuilder, especially not for budget, so I could really use as much input as possible. Thanks so much!

Are there any friends that may help you with lands, fetches and LEDs? :wink:

Btw, if you build SacLand Tendrils, you'll spend mere dollars on crappy cards (sac lands, draw-2s, Chromatics, etc.) so it shouldn't hurt that you'll throw the cards after a while. Also, you may keep some cards for TES (BW, RoF), or - if your only concern are money right now - you may even build TES, as it's a bit cheaper, unless I'm wrong.

[bjholmes3]

The reason I want to get fetches first is that it empowers the cantrips, and it makes my T1-3 plays more effective. The downside is that I don't have LED to empower tutor or PiF. Maybe I'll get 1-2 LED, then fetches, then the rest. I'm so poor, lol.

By the way, there's something else I want cleared up. See, I bought a Delver deck for Standard back when that was a thing and back when I was new and cared about Standard, all with about 1 month left in the format. Unfortunately, family stuff happened, and I never got to play the deck once officially. Bummer, but a blessing in disguise, because that made me lose interest in Standard. So, I built a KarnTron for Modern, since I had half of it anyways from when I was a collector, not a serious player, but my metagame didn't fare too well for it, so I built a UR Storm after testing online for a while and I LOVED it. I knew that I'd play storm combo for the rest of my MTG days. However, literally 1 week (7 days exactly) after I got the last pieces of the deck in the mail, Seething Song got banned, wrecked my build, and shot UR Storm down to Tier 1.5 at the absolute best.

Where I'm getting at is this: I really love ANT, and I want to invest completely in a solid build, BUT, I don't want to get screwed again or I might pull a Francis plays Magic and quit the game for good, lol. So, is there any substantial suspicion whatsoever that this deck will get banhammered or rendered obsolete (aka lose it's Tier 1 status) any time soon?

[Lemnear]

you may even build TES, as it's a bit cheaper, unless I'm wrong.

That's correct. You need less fetchlands and Duals aside from the Wishes that got quite a pricetag

[Zombie]

That's correct. You need less fetchlands and Duals aside from the Wishes that got quite a pricetag

Still, 2 Misty, 1 Tarn, 4 Wish vs. 4 Delta, 3 Tarn (or Verdant or whatever is more optimal), Badlands is a preetttyy easy choice if budget is an issue.

[walker]

if your goal is to win dont bother competing until you have an optimal build. From my experience its easier to acquire the expensive cards first and work your way down. That way, after you get your seas, it's all downhill from there and you'll feel like the process is getting easier rather than harder.

Also, I'd recommend not listening to people's opinons on your deck construction. Build it the way you are comfortable with and make changes based on your experience. If you read this thread you'll find that burning wish sucks in storm... even though the burning wish version won one of the biggest legacy tournaments ever. Just take this thread (and this whole forum) with a grain of salt, there are a lot of big egos around.

[bjholmes3]

Hm, that's good advice. I just want to play in the meantime. Very tough choice, but I think I'll just stick to Modern until I get the deck finished, and I'll focus on the big stuff first. Good thing about that is I will never be sad about having duals, LEDs, and fetches, and I'll never play the deck weaker than its best.

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

New member here; hi everyone!

So, I've been playing 16-cantrips ANT for a little while online, and I've decided that I'm ready to build the deck IRL and go competitive. My goal is to place in a major within the next six months. The problem is, of course, that I don't have 1500 dollars just floating around to build the deck, lol. I've budgeted about 50 dollars a week, so I could really use some help building a budget ANT progressing into full-blown ANT after several months.

The main things I need help with are this: after I buy the cheap stuff (everything but lands and LED, really), what do I invest in next? My thoughts are Fetches, then LEDs, then duals. And, in the meantime, what do I need to make the deck usable? My thoughts on this are to build a temporary Sac Land Tendrils build, but I don't think that transitions as smoothly into ANT as I'd like.

I'm a good pilot, but not a very good deckbuilder, especially not for budget, so I could really use as much input as possible. Thanks so much!

Best way I can see of doing it: Get LEDs - the Infernal Tutor plan really doesn't work well without them - build TES without the Fetches&Duals (play 2 Citys and crappy gold lands/Darkslick Shores instead). Not the greatest way to intentionally harmstring yourself, but probably close enough to the real deal to not lose infinite games outright. From there on out work your way towards duals/fetches one at a time and keep upgrading until you have exactly what you want. Towards the end you could even convert Wishes and Chrome Moxes back into cash to finish out ANT if you're convinced at that point that you won't want to run optimized TES back at some point.
As for anything getting banned, if all the good players suddenly start to play storm, something bad might happen - WotC is trigger happy when it comes to Storm - but I think the likelihood is quite low. As for the deck falling out of tier 1, the only way that would happen is if they suddenly printed three other Thalias with different names or something to make Counterbalance utterly unbeatable. Or maybe if they unbanned Mental Misstep. None of these seem likely in the slightest.

[Star|Scream]

Hey can anyone help me round out my sideboard? I'm playing 16 cantrip in an unknown (but probably very fair) Meta

3x Abrupt Decay
1x Tropical Island
1x Empty The Warrens
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Xantid Swarm
2x Massacre

[Tombstalker]

Star Scream- looks pretty standard although I'd lose the massacres for cheaper better sweepers. Pack some grave hate since dredge and reanimator are faster than us, mix of extirpate, SE, crypt. Then a mix of these will do well:

Dread of night for white weenies like mav, DnT, DGA
Karakas for thalia, teeg, griselbrand etc
Engineered explosives similar to above plus tokens and dodges cotv @ 1
Pithing needles for griselbrands, moms, tons of uses
Hurkyls recall maybe vs MUD, tezz.dec
Echoing truth for multiple leylines, tokens, dodges cotv too
More discard
2nd PiF
SDT

On my phone lost my first better post hope this helped a little

[nevilshute]

The reason I want to get fetches first is that it empowers the cantrips, and it makes my T1-3 plays more effective. The downside is that I don't have LED to empower tutor or PiF. Maybe I'll get 1-2 LED, then fetches, then the rest. I'm so poor, lol.

By the way, there's something else I want cleared up. See, I bought a Delver deck for Standard back when that was a thing and back when I was new and cared about Standard, all with about 1 month left in the format. Unfortunately, family stuff happened, and I never got to play the deck once officially. Bummer, but a blessing in disguise, because that made me lose interest in Standard. So, I built a KarnTron for Modern, since I had half of it anyways from when I was a collector, not a serious player, but my metagame didn't fare too well for it, so I built a UR Storm after testing online for a while and I LOVED it. I knew that I'd play storm combo for the rest of my MTG days. However, literally 1 week (7 days exactly) after I got the last pieces of the deck in the mail, Seething Song got banned, wrecked my build, and shot UR Storm down to Tier 1.5 at the absolute best.

Where I'm getting at is this: I really love ANT, and I want to invest completely in a solid build, BUT, I don't want to get screwed again or I might pull a Francis plays Magic and quit the game for good, lol. So, is there any substantial suspicion whatsoever that this deck will get banhammered or rendered obsolete (aka lose it's Tier 1 status) any time soon?

Welcome to ANT, so to speak :) In terms of vital parts if the deck being ban-worthy I wouldn't be particularly concerned. Wotc's stance on legacy seems to be "the format is healthy as is" and there seems to be other cards far more likely to be considered for a ban. Show and Tell & Griselbrand for instance. I guess one caveat is that there are no guarantees but I really, really wouldn't worry. Storm combo is by no means dominating the tournament scene and probably never will. Not due to a lack in power level, but more due to people not feeling comfortable picking up the deck, either due to the perceived high complexity of playing the deck or due to a general distaste for hardcore combo.

[phazonmutant]

Where I'm getting at is this: I really love ANT, and I want to invest completely in a solid build, BUT, I don't want to get screwed again or I might pull a Francis plays Magic and quit the game for good, lol. So, is there any substantial suspicion whatsoever that this deck will get banhammered or rendered obsolete (aka lose it's Tier 1 status) any time soon?

If you read back over Ari Lax's articles (back when he wrote about interesting formats :rolleyes:), he always described LED as a card that's just waiting to get banned, but in the meantime it's too powerful and fun not to play with. I have to agree. Banning LED doesn't seem imminent, but I wouldn't be surprised if it happens eventually. I'd be more worried about Show and Tell in the near term.

As far as being obsolete, it's really a meta thing. If the meta is filled with Counterbalance or Chalice decks, storm is probably not Tier 1. Storm also had a lot of difficulty in the Thresh vs. Maverick vs. Stoneblade meta that we had last year, although exceptional players with a good build can of course do well, as shown by Timo at Ghent.
Your build can affect those matchups though. I feel reasonable about the Miracles matchup with TES, but I've heard the ANT vs. Miracles matchup is not good for ANT from pilots on both sides. I think Chalices may be easier with ANT because you have more lands and discard.

[Will_L]

Hey can anyone help me round out my sideboard? I'm playing 16 cantrip in an unknown (but probably very fair) Meta

3x Abrupt Decay
1x Tropical Island
1x Empty The Warrens
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Xantid Swarm
2x Massacre


I think Dread of Night is a better anti hate bear card than Massacre. Massacre can't be cast with Teeg out, and him, Thalia and Canonist are the 3 most important hate bears against us. The only problem I see with Dread of Night is you need two to kill Gaddock Teeg or Ethersworn Canonist, which could be annoying. One Dread of Night kills Thalia, Mother of Runes and tons of other stuff though.

If you don't like of Dread of Night and want to kill Gaddock Teeg with one card I would reccomend Infest. It is definitely expensive as a 4 mana sorcery but it's everything you want in a board wipe I think. I usually switch between Infest and Virtue's Ruin in my SB

Also if you expect a lot of Deathblade, Shardless BUG or RUG (all fair decks) then you might want to consider Carpet of Flowers for your SB.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Why Dread of Night over Disfigure? Discard? One-Time Use? I don't know about Infest, I used to try to play it when teeg first came out and it was always so lack-luster and hated the high cc. Rushing River is better in my opinion simply because its better against more things. It can handle a Teeg AND a Thalia at the same time just as Infest, but bounces a Counterbalance/Rest in Peace too. Storm has very few slots available, and the best way to win is to have well-rounded answers that can deal with one situation as well as 3 others. Just my opinion, and I know how my opinions seem to be received on this thread and apparently the website as a whole, but I still feel as though they still hold meaning.

-ABC

[Tombstalker]

Why Dread of Night over Disfigure?
mom + thalia is why I play it. Teeg is an annoyance once the other two are dealt with since he can be bounced/killed during the combo turn. Plus 2 dread is very hard for decks that run those creatures to come back from, even shutting off QPM for maverick.

[Patrunkenphat7]

A combination of Dread of Night and Disfigure is solid. Right now I am dropping a Dread of Night for a Karakas because it is still good against Thalia with a Mom board, and it deals with Teeg which is just as common in Mav. I also think the additional hate against Reanimator for their Iona is quite good. The M14 changes make it less of a liability to hold it up for EOT action.

Running Disfigure in general is important because in addition to Maverick-style decks, Deathblade generally brings in Meddling Mages, and the Disfigures hit Meddling Mages and Deathrite Shaman (which is a very good target). I wouldn't leave home without a couple Disfigure in my board.

I also think that not enough people are playing Needles. It's very good against Shardless and Jund. Hitting Spellbombs, Deathrites, and Lilianas with Needle is one of the best things you can be doing against them.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I already thought about Needle, but then I decided I want to play Inquistion of K., because it hits the annoying cards and builds thresh. Otoh, IoK does little against cards that are already deployed (maybe not Lili, but DRS, Spellbombs, etc. are fast) and they will not bring artifact hate against us, so the Needle might survive.
How many Needles you play?

[Patrunkenphat7]

I already thought about Needle, but then I decided I want to play Inquistion of K., because it hits the annoying cards and builds thresh. Otoh, IoK does little against cards that are already deployed (maybe not Lili, but DRS, Spellbombs, etc. are fast) and they will not bring artifact hate against us, so the Needle might survive.
How many Needles you play?

My SB looks like this:

1 Tropical Island
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Echoing Truth
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Disfigure
1 Karakas
2 Pithing Needle
1 Inquisition of Kozilek

The Swarms/Truth are pretty specific hate for the Show and Tell matchups playing Leylines post-SB. I run Past in Flames/Empty main with no Ad Nauseam (my list is 15th place at the Somerset Open on the SCG site), and the only change I have made since then is to swap out the Dread of Night for a Karakas. The Inquisition does a few things for me. It's good against decks like Jund as well as hatebear/permanent hate decks, but it also swaps out my singleton maindeck Thoughtseize against RUG Delver. The 2 Pithing Needles are the best cards in a couple matchups, and I really like them.

[JanoschEausH]

My SB looks like this:

1 Tropical Island
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Echoing Truth
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Disfigure
1 Karakas
2 Pithing Needle
1 Inquisition of Kozilek

The Swarms/Truth are pretty specific hate for the Show and Tell matchups playing Leylines post-SB. I run Past in Flames/Empty main with no Ad Nauseam (my list is 15th place at the Somerset Open on the SCG site), and the only change I have made since then is to swap out the Dread of Night for a Karakas. The Inquisition does a few things for me. It's good against decks like Jund as well as hatebear/permanent hate decks, but it also swaps out my singleton maindeck Thoughtseize against RUG Delver. The 2 Pithing Needles are the best cards in a couple matchups, and I really like them.

Judging from your sideboard you not seem to have any troubles with discard heavy matchups. I'm playing 2 SDT's in my sideboard for those matchups and swapping them with Ignorant Bliss sometimes. I often find myself having troubles against Hymn to Tourach than against Liliana. What do you do against those matchups?

Regarding Disfigure, i prefer Dread of Night because they answer Thalia preemtively. It's especially good against D'n'T, where they can bounce their own Thalia with their Karakas in response to spot removal.

[Sloshthedark]

Ok, no need to heaten up previous discussion however funny read that was, just to shortly react... I have no need to zealously defend no basics, gemstone or DRS paradigma(s), although GM is obvious (tested, no animals harmed, just idiots) and DRS is sole reason one would have general problem with hymn or Liliana, reading post above // obv. TES doens't give a shit about DRS...The basics, it's something from gaming xp in my metagame, not general rule to follow and I don't use it all the time, but 2 basic islands, what can you say, gives me the creeps same as Prosacks haircut online... Btw. before you frivolently consider embarasing cards like disfigure without warning let my introduce you to my oldschool favourite - Lightning bolt - Killing players and inferior creatures since 1993...

[Vandalize]

Judging from your sideboard you not seem to have any troubles with discard heavy matchups. I'm playing 2 SDT's in my sideboard for those matchups and swapping them with Ignorant Bliss sometimes. I often find myself having troubles against Hymn to Tourach than against Liliana. What do you do against those matchups?

Regarding Disfigure, i prefer Dread of Night because they answer Thalia preemtively. It's especially good against D'n'T, where they can bounce their own Thalia with their Karakas in response to spot removal.

Against Discard heavy decks, you sandbag a Past in Flames and win. That's the strategy.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Btw. before you frivolently consider embarasing cards like disfigure without warning let my introduce you to my oldschool favourite - Lightning bolt - Killing players and inferior creatures since 1993...
Martin, I love you.

So, looks like I may find soem time to try ANT on Mon, and I'm really interested how the Needle sb will work. But... I'm still undecided, and maybe I'll keep the IoK instead.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Judging from your sideboard you not seem to have any troubles with discard heavy matchups. I'm playing 2 SDT's in my sideboard for those matchups and swapping them with Ignorant Bliss sometimes. I often find myself having troubles against Hymn to Tourach than against Liliana. What do you do against those matchups?

Regarding Disfigure, i prefer Dread of Night because they answer Thalia preemtively. It's especially good against D'n'T, where they can bounce their own Thalia with their Karakas in response to spot removal.

There isn't a lot of SB "hate" for discard because your PiF engine is designed to be effective against those decks. The Inquisition is swapped in for a Cabal Therapy against non-blue discard decks. Ignorant Bliss doesn't actually do anything 95% of the time, and I continue to be surprised that people run that card. It never stops their turn 1 targeted discard (unless you are on the play and blow a Lotus Petal for it). It only stops their Hymn if you are on the play AND leave up a whopping two mana, one of which is a red source that you will have to fetch for. The card is just super awkward.

[Tombstalker]

Play SDT its king against discard and with cards like LDV they are even better.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Play SDT its king against discard and with cards like LDV they are even better.

I mean SDT is mediocre against discard. You need a combination of several cards to win with this deck, and floating a card on top is both inefficient and just mediocre in general. It obviously plays very well with LDV though, and I would probably fit it in somewhere if I played that card. Right now I simply prefer to have more tutors (Grim Tutor) for the consistent Past in Flames kill.

[Tombstalker]

Fair enough, I have never committed to purchasing grims so I've only experienced BW and LDV.

[DireLemming]

I mean SDT is mediocre against discard. You need a combination of several cards to win with this deck, and floating a card on top is both inefficient and just mediocre in general. It obviously plays very well with LDV though, and I would probably fit it in somewhere if I played that card. Right now I simply prefer to have more tutors (Grim Tutor) for the consistent Past in Flames kill.
It's not just about floating cards on top, it's also about developing your mana. Once you have 4+ lands and a couple of mana rocks out, you no longer need a combination of cards to go off but a single tutor or engine card.

[Lemnear]

It's not just about floating cards on top, it's also about developing your mana. Once you have 4+ lands and a couple of mana rocks out, you no longer need a combination of cards to go off but a single tutor or engine card.

on opposite, those are the exact conditions in which DRS eats you alive: Without a hand, in topdeck-mode

[Patrunkenphat7]

It's not just about floating cards on top, it's also about developing your mana. Once you have 4+ lands and a couple of mana rocks out, you no longer need a combination of cards to go off but a single tutor or engine card.

Actually when you have 4+ lands and a couple "mana rocks" (does this mean Lotus Petals?), the only card that is relevant by itself is a natural Ad Nauseam unless you have a bunch of rituals, maybe some Probes, and a tutor in your GY for a natural Past in Flames. You could Infernal for an Ad Nauseam and cast it with no mana floating with 5 land and 2 "mana rocks" in play, but that is pretty poor. There aren't many decks in the format that you can still Ad Nauseam against on turn 6+.

SDT is a fine card with LDV, but it is mediocre in non-LDV situations.

[Tombstalker]

SDT is a great card better than the alternative preordain IMO. Opponents hate seeing it and I do too when across from me. Synergy with LDV is obvious but it's also very welcome when discard takes your cantrips or for digging you out of bad situations in general. It's also good at drawing out FoW on turn 1 occasionally, something no other cantrip will do. I played it in the past with burning wish and thought it too slow but dropping wish for vault has made me really grow to appreciate it. It can also make hands keepable that wouldn't otherwise be with only a single cantrip instead. It can even build its own storm if you have the mana. Very versatile but often at the expense of speed .

[Patrunkenphat7]

SDT is a great card better than the alternative preordain IMO. Opponents hate seeing it and I do too when across from me. Synergy with LDV is obvious but it's also very welcome when discard takes your cantrips or for digging you out of bad situations in general. It's also good at drawing out FoW on turn 1 occasionally, something no other cantrip will do. I played it in the past with burning wish and thought it too slow but dropping wish for vault has made me really grow to appreciate it. It can also make hands keepable that wouldn't otherwise be with only a single cantrip instead. It can even build its own storm if you have the mana. Very versatile but often at the expense of speed .

I definitely dislike Preordain, but Top is 2 mana to Ponder that doesn't have a shuffle option without a fetch. Obviously it's more complicated than that because it gets insane the more mana you have, but if you are playing this deck efficiently you shouldn't be putting 3+ mana into one card unless you are winning or tutoring for exactly what you need. I see how this is sweet with Vault though. I think there are enough good card options in Storm to not need significantly worse cantrips past the Bstorms, Ponders, and Probes. Like if you aren't skimping on discard and tutors there's probably not space.

[Tombstalker]

I am actually skimping on discard (6) and tutors too I guess since I'm absolutely done with wish and don't own grims so I run IT and 2 LDV. I must admit though that card is seriously underrated. The more I play it the better it is, just takes a little getting used to. It's like a UB ad naus EoT and I love how it can bait out counter magic if needed or just win plus any cantrip in hand basically turns it into a grim tutor. Can't believe I dismissed this card at one time with limited testing.

On SDT again, are you saying you would choose more discard over 2 tops? 7 felt fine before SDT + LDV when I dropped to 6 comfortably. 8 always felt like overkill. That said heavy disruption like jund and thresh is a pain at times.

[Patrunkenphat7]

I am actually skimping on discard (6) and tutors too I guess since I'm absolutely done with wish and don't own grims so I run IT and 2 LDV. I must admit though that card is seriously underrated. The more I play it the better it is, just takes a little getting used to. It's like a UB ad naus EoT and I love how it can bait out counter magic if needed or just win plus any cantrip in hand basically turns it into a grim tutor. Can't believe I dismissed this card at one time with limited testing.

On SDT again, are you saying you would choose more discard over 2 tops? 7 felt fine before SDT + LDV when I dropped to 6 comfortably. 8 always felt like overkill. That said heavy disruption like jund and thresh is a pain at times.

I personally feel like 6 is too low. 7 is the sweet spot for me in Ad Naus builds. I like 8 (with a singleton Tseize) in my current non-AN, PiF/Empty-main build, and that's the list I have having the most success with when I play.

[GoldenCid]

On SDT again, are you saying you would choose more discard over 2 tops? 7 felt fine before SDT + LDV when I dropped to 6 comfortably. 8 always felt like overkill. That said heavy disruption like jund and thresh is a pain at times.

Is there a list combining top and LDV???

[DarkJester]

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26588_Raiding-The-Necromancers-Vault.html

or

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26468-2nd-with-flaming-vault-a-tournament-for-duals

for example.

[GoldenCid]

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26588_Raiding-The-Necromancers-Vault.html

or

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26468-2nd-with-flaming-vault-a-tournament-for-duals

for example.

Thx!! i guess top + LDV replace B. wish right??

[Final Fortune]

I definitely dislike Preordain, but Top is 2 mana to Ponder that doesn't have a shuffle option without a fetch. Obviously it's more complicated than that because it gets insane the more mana you have, but if you are playing this deck efficiently you shouldn't be putting 3+ mana into one card unless you are winning or tutoring for exactly what you need. I see how this is sweet with Vault though. I think there are enough good card options in Storm to not need significantly worse cantrips past the Bstorms, Ponders, and Probes. Like if you aren't skimping on discard and tutors there's probably not space.

Except there aren't enough good card options in Storm to not need "significantly worse" cantrips past Brainstorms, Ponders and Probes, because Grim Tutor is inefficient, Burning Wish is underpowered and Lim Dul's Vault, Personal Tutor and Sensei's Divining Top aren't established yet. Preordain is about as good as Ponder is, and I don't think you can directly compare Preordain vs Sensei's Divining Top because there isn't a linear relationship between the number of Preordains and Sensei's Divining Tops in your deck. For instance, 1 Sensei's Divining Top is better than 1 Preordain, but 4 Preordain are better than 4 Sensei's Divining Top

I like LDV/Top, but it seems slower than the 16 cantrip version, which is kind of disconcerting.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

With a "tutor" like LDV, is 16 cantrips necessary? Sure, LDV requires more...brain activity to be a competent play, but knowing the top five cards of your library is insane. Moreover, picking those 5 cards and reordering them is even crazier. Then, you have over 8 cantrips that will allow you to draw at least one of those cards, or up to all (Ad Nauseam) of those cards, and with
AN in mind, it can all be end of your opponents turn with the help of a couple rituals. Not the best idea, but drawing lots of cards in response to a discard spell that would otherwise take your only win-con is a good choice in my opinion.

-ABC

[Lemnear]

Is it only me, or does all the development, resulting as a reaction to any meta-shift, make the deck slower and slower?

It's one thing to run expensive Tutors like Grim in addition to Infernal, or getting used to cantrip for 2-3 turns into a card-configuration that can win, but SDT and LDV are significant mana-sinks and carddisadvantage and with the cutting of Ad Nauseam (which I promoted months ago), I don't feel you can make up for that Investment.

[Final Fortune]

With a "tutor" like LDV, is 16 cantrips necessary? Sure, LDV requires more...brain activity to be a competent play, but knowing the top five cards of your library is insane. Moreover, picking those 5 cards and reordering them is even crazier. Then, you have over 8 cantrips that will allow you to draw at least one of those cards, or up to all (Ad Nauseam) of those cards, and with
AN in mind, it can all be end of your opponents turn with the help of a couple rituals. Not the best idea, but drawing lots of cards in response to a discard spell that would otherwise take your only win-con is a good choice in my opinion.

-ABC

Obviously not, considering the only way you could afford to play LDV in the first place is by cutting cantrips, I think the "standard" LDV list is like 2 LDV, 2 SDT in place of the 4 Pre-Ordains.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

It doesn't make up for card disadvantage, but it does give you card quality, something vital to the life of storm. Back in the days of Mystical Tutor when I was playing D-Day FT AN hybrid (ran a full set of tops), you could run 7 discard spells and a single Chant and win a war of attrition vs. blue.dec. You can't do that with this deck, and it's because you are too busy durdling around with all those clunky cantrips to do anything other than combo off as fast as your scared little deck can manage. Doomsday went off turn 3, occasionally turn 4, and that happened more against blue than anything. Win through graveyard hate, hate bears, you name it. Any D-Day player knows that the top 5 cards of a library is all you need. I see no reason to change philosophy now, especially when your choices are smaller via a lack of mystical. In fact, LDV is basically the next best thing to Mystical, doing the exact same thing, costing only B more and giving you the next top 4 cards of your library in any order you want. Life total, shmife total, its a bargain for its plethora of uses.

EDIT: Took me long enough that I guess I should have noted that this was in response to Lemnear. FF, obv. you are correct. That's the point I was trying to make.

[Lemnear]

I agree with the obvious analogies between LDV and Mystical, however the deck back then was an Ad Nauseam deck which basically only needed the namesake card and 5 mana to work.

Imo the things greatly differ if you cut AN and make the Main-engine PIF, which still needs Rituals/cantrips/infernal in the graveyard to achieve enough stormcount + mana for being finally able to fetch ToA.

So I doubt we can make Mystical + Ad Nauseam a proper example to advocate for LDV + PIF

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Well yes, obviously, but then we wouldn't be talking about AD Nauseam Tendrils, would we? That would be PiF-Tendrils; a different deck with different routes to victory.

-ABC

[Lemnear]

Well yes, obviously, but then we wouldn't be talking about AD Nauseam Tendrils, would we? That would be PiF-Tendrils; a different deck with different routes to victory.

-ABC

Indeed. Still, the current discussed standard is EtW + PIF w/o AN afaik, so I was refering to that one 'cause it was discussed here due to the lack of an own thread. Tribute to the threads-multi-layer of builds :/

[Patrunkenphat7]

Except there aren't enough good card options in Storm to not need "significantly worse" cantrips past Brainstorms, Ponders and Probes, because Grim Tutor is inefficient, Burning Wish is underpowered and Lim Dul's Vault, Personal Tutor and Sensei's Divining Top aren't established yet. Preordain is about as good as Ponder is, and I don't think you can directly compare Preordain vs Sensei's Divining Top because there isn't a linear relationship between the number of Preordains and Sensei's Divining Tops in your deck. For instance, 1 Sensei's Divining Top is better than 1 Preordain, but 4 Preordain are better than 4 Sensei's Divining Top

I like LDV/Top, but it seems slower than the 16 cantrip version, which is kind of disconcerting.

Saying that Preordain is about as good as Ponder essentially invalidates everything else you said. Also, you can't make a blanket statement that 1 Top is better than 1 Preordain. They are completely different cards, and Top costs 1 more mana to look at cards once which is a huge deal. Regarding Grim, it is still a very good card. It lets my list run 150% of the normal number of tutors and better utilize Past in Flames which is the best engine in the deck.

[Final Fortune]

Saying that Preordain is about as good as Ponder essentially invalidates everything else you said. Also, you can't make a blanket statement that 1 Top is better than 1 Preordain. They are completely different cards, and Top costs 1 more mana to look at cards once which is a huge deal. Regarding Grim, it is still a very good card. It lets my list run 150% of the normal number of tutors and better utilize Past in Flames which is the best engine in the deck.

How does saying Preordain is about as good as Ponder essentially invalidate everything else I said? I've played the 16 cantrip version of Tendrils exclusively at local tournaments for some time, and the power level of Preordain isn't far behind the power level of Ponder if you consider Ponder is only strictly better than Preordain when combined with a Fetchland. Yes, I can make a blanket statement that 1 Top is better than 1 Preordain and that 4 Preordain is better than 4 Top, because a single Top will have significantly more powerful board presence vs your more difficult match ups compared to a single Preordain, where Preordain becomes more powerful as the total number of Preordains increases because the deck can begin to chain cantrips mana efficiently while building Threshold. If I'm choosing the 9th cantrip, then I'm choosing Top over Preordain because it makes the biggest difference vs discard, where if I'm choosing to build an engine out of cantrips than Preordain is clearly better than Top because multiple Tops are redudant and a single Top is mana inefficient as a card quality engine when having 16 cantrips lets you essentially cantrip every turn anyway. I can't say a single Preordain is strictly worse than a single Top vs RUG and such, but in a metagame defined by discard I think Top clearly wins; I mean you don't exactly see anybody SBing Preordain compared to Top right now.

I think the difference between Infernal Tutor and Grim Tutor is much more significant than the difference between Ponder and Preordain, it is noticeably worse in every situation that I've come across and I think that people's interest in Burning Wish, Lim Dul's Vault and Preordain speaks of people's discontent with the card. I don't fault anyone for playing it, but for me it's been rather lackluster.

[monovfox]

My friend told me about an ant player using young pyromancer in the sideboard. The card seemed to be doing pretty well from what my friend described. Basically becomes an empty the warrens, and is a backup plan against force of stupid.

[spg]

How does saying Preordain is about as good as Ponder essentially invalidate everything else I said? I've played the 16 cantrip version of Tendrils exclusively at local tournaments for some time, and the power level of Preordain isn't far behind the power level of Ponder if you consider Ponder is only strictly better than Preordain when combined with a Fetchland.

Without a fetchland, Ponder is strictly better than Preordain when you don't want any of the top 3 cards on top of your library.

[Final Fortune]

Without a fetchland, Ponder is strictly better than Preordain when you don't want any of the top 3 cards on top of your library.

And Preordain is strictly better than Ponder when you want 1 card on top of your deck but not the other, I think it's completely situational which cantrip is actually better sans fetchlands. I'm not saying Ponder isn't better overall, but Preordain is still pretty close.

[Patrunkenphat7]

And Preordain is strictly better than Ponder when you want 1 card on top of your deck but not the other, I think it's completely situational which cantrip is actually better sans fetchlands. I'm not saying Ponder isn't better overall, but Preordain is still pretty close.

This is actually false. Preordain is not "strictly better" in this scenario because Ponder can see and reorder a third card than Preordain cannot see...

[SaberTooth]

I think the difference between Infernal Tutor and Grim Tutor is much more significant than the difference between Ponder and Preordain, it is noticeably worse in every situation that I've come across and I think that people's interest in Burning Wish, Lim Dul's Vault and Preordain speaks of people's discontent with the card. I don't fault anyone for playing it, but for me it's been rather lackluster.

not really. look, to me, another tutor is just better than another cantrip. i can give you situations where grim is better than infernal or another cantrip, and i think that a lot of people dont play the card because is expensive. preordain is good, but cmon, 3 preordains and 1 grim seems (to me at least) just better

[Final Fortune]

This is actually false. Preordain is not "strictly better" in this scenario because Ponder can see and reorder a third card than Preordain cannot see...

There's a difference between seeing and re-ordering a third card that you'll have to draw thru' anway and sending a second card to the bottom of your deck so you wont have to draw it at all obviously, that said I usually prefer Preordain over Ponder without a fetchland because the Scry clears the top of the deck of an unwanted card before I follow up with another cantrip. The fact that I always seem to lead with Preordain makes it the preferable cantrip, I'd rather have 2xPreordain, 1xPreordain and 1xPonder or 1xPreordain and 1xBrainstorm than 2xPonder or 1xPonder and 1xBrainstorm fwiw if I'm not holding a fetchland.

Look, I get that you don't like Preordain, but functionally it does what it needs to do close enough to Ponder for me not to have to worry about the deck being strictly worse without Grim Tutor. Even if it was just equal to Ponder without a fetchland and worse than Ponder with a fetchland, that's still good enough to get played in my book.

[Final Fortune]

not really. look, to me, another tutor is just better than another cantrip. i can give you situations where grim is better than infernal or another cantrip, and i think that a lot of people dont play the card because is expensive. preordain is good, but cmon, 3 preordains and 1 grim seems (to me at least) just better

It may very well be, I've never tried that configuration.

[Royce Walter]

Without a fetchland, Ponder is strictly better than Preordain when you don't want any of the top 3 cards on top of your library.

No it isn't. It gives you a slightly higher chance of hitting off the single cantrip if you're looking for a particular card. You can still draw the cards you don't want after shuffling them away. You can't after scrying them away.

Not arguing that Ponder isn't is better most of the time, but saying that it's always the better card to have is incorrect.

[jarvisyu]

Royce is right.

I've had this argument before about ponder vs preordain, and the fact of the matter is neither is strictly better (than the other).

there are situations where both are better, and in fact if you don't want any of your top 3 cards, i would sort of argue that preordain is slightly better because it leaves 2 of the unwanted cards on the bottom of the deck while you try to continue to cantrip to cards you need.

[Patrunkenphat7]

No it isn't. It gives you a slightly higher chance of hitting off the single cantrip if you're looking for a particular card. You can still draw the cards you don't want after shuffling them away. You can't after scrying them away.

Not arguing that Ponder isn't is better most of the time, but saying that it's always the better card to have is incorrect.

I don't think anyone is arguing that Ponder is better than Preordain 100% of the time, but it is definitely not even close.

You are wrong to correct spg, because in his example he is right by saying that Ponder is better if you don't want any of the top 3 cards of your library. With Preordain, you MUST take the 3rd card if you don't want the first or second. With Ponder, there is a chance that you will shuffle and still get one of those cards, but there is also a good chance you won't. In that scenario Preordain 100% gives you a card you don't want...

[Royce Walter]

I don't think anyone is arguing that Ponder is better than Preordain 100% of the time, but it is definitely not even close.

You are wrong to correct spg, because in his example he is right by saying that Ponder is better if you don't want any of the top 3 cards of your library. With Preordain, you MUST take the 3rd card if you don't want the first or second. With Ponder, there is a chance that you will shuffle and still get one of those cards, but there is also a good chance you won't. In that scenario Preordain 100% gives you a card you don't want...

I think that in order to believe that, you have to be thinking that the only card that matters is the card that you draw from the cantrip, and that's discounting if the card you draw from the cantrip is another selection spell, where it's obviously better to have just scryed 2 to the bottom.

[Patrunkenphat7]

I think that in order to believe that, you have to be thinking that the only card that matters is the card that you draw from the cantrip, and that's discounting if the card you draw from the cantrip is another selection spell, where it's obviously better to have just scryed 2 to the bottom.

Well the 3rd card from the top of your library has to be a constant in this scenario because we have established that it is an unwanted card. You would know that this is an unwanted card with Ponder because you see 3 cards. If you had used a Preordain, the 3rd card is still an unwanted card, but you don't know that until you draw it. Because of this, Ponder is always the better card if the top 3 cards of your deck are unwanted cards. Does that make sense?

It's pretty weak to argue that the scrying matters anyways, because that is making the assumption that you aren't going to shuffle the deck with any other effect. The effect is also minimal in terms of statistics compared to the benefits of seeing a third card with Ponder. Let's go back to the above scenario. Let's assume your deck has 50 card in it, 20 of which you don't want to see. The top 3 are unwanted cards. With the Ponder shuffle, you have a 60% chance to draw a desired card on the turn you cantrip and a 59.2% chance to draw a desired card on the following turn (assuming you actually drew a desired card the turn before. It is 61.2% if you did not). With Preordain, you have a 0% chance of drawing a desired card on the cantrip turn and a 63.8% chance of drawing a desired card on the following turn (this includes the fact that you definitely did not draw a desired card the turn before).

[Royce Walter]

Well the 3rd card from the top of your library has to be a constant in this scenario because we have established that it is an unwanted card. You would know that this is an unwanted card with Ponder because you see 3 cards. If you had used a Preordain, the 3rd card is still an unwanted card, but you don't know that until you draw it. Because of this, Ponder is always the better card if the top 3 cards of your deck are unwanted cards. Does that make sense?

It's pretty weak to argue that the scrying matters anyways, because that is making the assumption that you aren't going to shuffle the deck with any other effect. The effect is also minimal in terms of statistics compared to the benefits of seeing a third card with Ponder. Let's go back to the above scenario. Let's assume your deck has 50 card in it, 20 of which you don't want to see. The top 3 are unwanted cards. With the Ponder shuffle, you have a 60% chance to draw a desired card on the turn you cantrip and a 59.2% chance to draw a desired card on the following turn (assuming you actually drew a desired card the turn before. It is 61.2% if you did not). With Preordain, you have a 0% chance of drawing a desired card on the cantrip turn and a 63.8% chance of drawing a desired card on the following turn (this includes the fact that you definitely did not draw a desired card the turn before).

Since your metric appears to be "the chance of finding what I am looking for off of this cantrip", then I agree with what you're saying. I disagree that this is the best way to compare them. Especially since you sequence your cantrips such that you get to eliminate some number of unwanted cards by Preordaining before Pondering/Brainstorming. Remember in our hypothetical that our only stipulation is that the top 3 cards of our library are undesirable. So if you have another card selection spell in your hand, is Ponder still better?

[spg]

No it isn't. It gives you a slightly higher chance of hitting off the single cantrip if you're looking for a particular card. You can still draw the cards you don't want after shuffling them away. You can't after scrying them away.

Not arguing that Ponder isn't is better most of the time, but saying that it's always the better card to have is incorrect.

To be clear I wasn't trying to argue that Ponder is strictly better than Preordain, just that there are game situations where Ponder is strictly, mathematically better than Preordain that don't involve a fetchland.

Although I must say that the odds of redrawing shuffled cards is an interesting point that I hadn't really thought about much before in my cantrip decisions. I like numbers, so let's be a little more specific and go through some quick math to get an idea of how it can affect us:

SITUATION #1:
You need a Lion's Eye Diamond to win the game right now, otherwise you're going down the next turn to a goblin swarm. You have only one spare blue mana to cast a cantrip, and can choose between Preordain and Ponder to make it happen. Lion's Eye Diamond is the only card that will win for you, and there are 4 left in your 40 card library. None of the 4 LEDs are in the top 3 cards of your library.

Clearly Ponder at a 10% chance is strictly better than Preordain in this situation, since you can't find the LED by definition with Preordain.

Chances with Ponder = 1 - (36/40) = 10.00%
Chances with Preordain = 1 - (38/38) = 0.00%

SITUATION #2:
Same as situation 1, except you have an additional Gitaxian Probe to see one more draw beyond your Preordain/Ponder.

Preordain is better than in situation #1 (since by definition it now has some chance of finding LED) - but the dead cards do not swing the percentage into Preordain's favor. Ponder is still better.

Chances with Ponder: 1 - (36/40) x (35/39) = 19.23%
Chances with Preordain: 1 - (38/38) x (33/37) = 10.81% (first draw is dead, second draw is 4/37 because the bottom two are known non-LED cards)

SITUATION #3:
Same as situation 1, except you have THREE Gitaxian Probes to draw the next 3 cards after resolving your Ponder/Preordain.

Still heavily in Ponder's favor, although less so than Situation #2.

Chances with Ponder: 1 - (36/40) x (35/39) x (34/38) x (33/37) = 35.55%
Chances with Preordain: 1 - (37/37) x (33/37) x (32/36) x (31/35) = 29.78%

So assuming my math is correct, the two known dead cards do not tip the scales in Preordain's favor even after a free Ancestral in this situation. In these three situations Ponder is strictly, mathematically better than Preordain. Clearly though, there are also situations where the two known dead cards vs the shuffle WOULD make Preordain a better choice - it just isn't one of these three scenarios. With this simple setup, it would take 12 Gitaxian Probes (and some extra life) before the odds swung into Preordain's favor 80.85% vs 80.80%.

These three scenarios are obviously HIGHLY simplified, but I think it can still be educational. I do think that, for example, Situation #2 above is something that could really come up for you in a match - and you should always cast Ponder based on the math. Running numbers like this becomes a lot more complex if you have other complicated cantrips involved (Ponder/Brainstorm/Preordain) with shuffles, or you're looking for multiple cards, or drawing Lotus Petals, or whatever.

Personally I'm not a fan of declaring something 'strictly' better without it being mathematically, provably better - and I'm embarrassed that I did it in my previous post. My statement of "Without a fetchland, Ponder is strictly better than Preordain when you don't want any of the top 3 cards on top of your library" is clearly incorrect. Ponder is often better in that situation, but it's not STRICTLY better. Lots to think about!

[Star|Scream]

In situation #2 you listed Preordain as better. Is that a mistake?

[spg]

In situation #2 you listed Preordain as better. Is that a mistake?

Edited for clarity. I meant that it's better than in situation #1, but worded it horribly. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Patrunkenphat7]

@spg: Your original statement is correct though because Preordain has 100% chance of hitting an undesirable card if the top 3 cards of your deck are undesirable, whereas Ponder has the option to see a 4th random card, meaning that there is some chance to hit a card that you need. Even with Probes, Brainstorms, whatever else, the extra card that you are seeing on your quest to find a playable card makes Ponder always better in that scenario.

[Royce Walter]

@spg: Your original statement is correct though because Preordain has 100% chance of hitting an undesirable card if the top 3 cards of your deck are undesirable, whereas Ponder has the option to see a 4th random card, meaning that there is some chance to hit a card that you need. Even with Probes, Brainstorms, whatever else, the extra card that you are seeing on your quest to find a playable card makes Ponder always better in that scenario.

I disagree. I'd rather scry 2 to the bottom before casting a Brainstorm than I would shuffle my library, draw a card, then Brainstorm.

[Asthereal]

It all depends on what you need, and when you need it exactly.
If you need one card right now, or else you just die, Ponder lets you see four cards instead of three, so it is always better.

If you have time to cantrip into new stuff, things start to change. Cantripping into one card you like, and two you don't like, is a good example of when Preordain is better. Fetch lands can help your Ponder, out of course. I add my voice to those who say that Preordain should be the first cantrip you cast. Brainstorm usually gets better when the game progresses, so Ponder fits nicely in the middle.

Like the following line of play:
Turn one: land, Preordain.
Turn two: Ponder, play fetch, fetch away irrelevant stuff, cast Duress.
Turn three: Brainstorm, play fetch, fetch away irrelevant stuff, go off (or cast second protection spell and then go off).

[Zombie]

It all depends on what you need, and when you need it exactly.
If you need one card right now, or else you just die, Ponder lets you see four cards instead of three, so it is always better.

If you have time to cantrip into new stuff, things start to change. Cantripping into one card you like, and two you don't like, is a good example of when Preordain is better. Fetch lands can help your Ponder, out of course. I add my voice to those who say that Preordain should be the first cantrip you cast. Brainstorm usually gets better when the game progresses, so Ponder fits nicely in the middle.

Like the following line of play:
Turn one: land, Preordain.
Turn two: Ponder, play fetch, fetch away irrelevant stuff, cast Duress.
Turn three: Brainstorm, play fetch, fetch away irrelevant stuff, go off (or cast second protection spell and then go off).

T2 you surely play fetch before Ponder unless you're deliberately baiting a daze or something?

[Asthereal]

That's only an example. Maybe I needed to find the fetch with my Ponder. :wink:
If my opponent plays Daze, I play the land first. If not, I sometimes keep it in hand, in order to perhaps find a different fetch land that I prefer at that moment. All depends on the situation, the opponent, cards in hand. You know. You've played this deck. :smile:

I must admit that I use cantrips to bait Daze sometimes, if I have little accelleration in hand.

[Patrunkenphat7]

I disagree. I'd rather scry 2 to the bottom before casting a Brainstorm than I would shuffle my library, draw a card, then Brainstorm.

That makes no sense. So you would rather definitely get a card that you don't need so that your Brainstorm does not hit the 2 cards that you put on the bottom of your deck? What if your Brainstorm then hits 2 unplayable cards anyways? What if there is at least one card in your hand that isn't that great and you draw into another? It makes no sense that you would rather have an unplayable card in your hand than a potentially very good card just so your Brainstorm has a higher percentage to hit playable cards by a couple percentage points. That logically makes no sense.

@Asthereal: Preordain is not necessarily better in a scenario when you cantrip into 1 card you like and 2 you don't because one of those three cards is going to be random with Preordain, and you will absolutely have to draw it. With Ponder you can weigh the importance of the one card you want over the other two cards because all three cards are known information. You can also use shuffle effects to get rid of the worst of the three or even get rid of two if you can fetch that turn. Regardless, the information is what is important. With Preordain you will still be stuck with drawing a random crd out of the top 3, and what if that card is the absolute worst one? Preordain can be a crapshoot and is so much worse than Ponder in a tuned combo deck like Storm.

[Asthereal]

In the situation where there are three cards on top of which you want one, and definitely do not want the other two, this is what happens:
Preordain either gets rid of both bad cards and draws the good one, or gets rid of one bad card, draws one good card, and then we have the (unknown) last bad card on top still. Ponder gives you the choice: have one good card and two bad ones, or shuffle and lose the one good card but draw one random card instead. Ponder gives you a dilemma, and you will definitely be uncomfortable with either choice you make, where Preordain makes you happy: you ditch the bad stuff, draw the good stuff, and IF the bad card is still on top, you will not know, because you haven't seen it yet. So Preordain is also better for your mood. :tongue:

[Patrunkenphat7]

In the situation where there are three cards on top of which you want one, and definitely do not want the other two, this is what happens:
Preordain either gets rid of both bad cards and draws the good one, or gets rid of one bad card, draws one good card, and then we have the (unknown) last bad card on top still. Ponder gives you the choice: have one good card and two bad ones, or shuffle and lose the one good card but draw one random card instead. Ponder gives you a dilemma, and you will definitely be uncomfortable with either choice you make, where Preordain makes you happy: you ditch the bad stuff, draw the good stuff, and IF the bad card is still on top, you will not know, because you haven't seen it yet. So Preordain is also better for your mood. :tongue:

Haha OK you can have that point. :smile:

[Bed Decks Palyer]

on opposite, those are the exact conditions in which DRS eats you alive: Without a hand, in topdeck-mode

the exact conditions in which DRS eats you alive

DRS eats you alive
Followed by two pages of Ponder vs. Preordain debate... :rolleyes:


Ok, time for a small report:

Another four-rounder on Mon, I was unable to chnage the deck to my liking, so I used the outdated version I'll never use again. Over twenty ppl showed up.


// Lands
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
//\\
// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Lim-Dul's Vault
3 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
//\\
// Sideboard
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Virtue's Ruin
2 Disfigure
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Carpet of Flowers


Round 1, Luke with Jund
g1: I won the dice roll, mulled no-lander to monstrous six that loses to any discard. (I didn't know what I stand against, though.) I GP->CT his Hymn and on my turn 2 I Ponder into AdN with double CRit and double DRit in hand. I draw lots of cards (some of them LEDs) and on my five life I finally draw LP to play the IT I had in opening hand. Crack LEDs, find ToA.
sb: in discard and removal, out some Probes and something I can't remember, maybe I switched some Duress for IoK, as the latter hits DRS?
g2: I made a mistake of fetching basic and failed to draw a black source until it was too late.
g3: I made a mistake of fetching USea and my only play before been Wasted-out was IoK.
Lovely match.


Round 2, Tom with UGBR Tempo
g1: I think I started. I was hit by discard and he Pierced my quite important Ponder, but luckily his only creature was Grim and that cantrip deathtouch flying 1/1 owl. I had three lands but only one of them was blue, so I cantripped at snail's pace. Turn before I was ready to combo, he BSed into Thoughtseize and DRS. He seized my IT/LDV, played DRS and passed. Failing to draw anything relevant, I also passed and then I lost to Goyf pretty soon after my sole blue land was wasted.
sb: in Iok, Carpets, Disfigures and Chains, out some Probes and a mix of one ofs.
g2: I had turn1 Carpet and was able to play around Pierces. I just sculpted my hand, played lands and lately killed one Shaman, woohoo! He was stuck on two lands, but had Crypt. Then he tapped for something irrelevant (I think he got his 3rd land and played Lili, but maybe it was something else, I forgot to write it down... Goyf?) and I played EOT DRit+AdN which he not surprisingly FoWed. On my turn I went LP->Carpet no. 2, move to 2nd main, add BBUU with Carpets, then Duress/IoK. LED, DRit, CRit, CT, IT, ToA. Note: if he had Surgical for my DRit, I'd maybe lost, I din't seen this play when I tried the AdN.
g3: Would you believe that 2x Spell Pierce , Thoughtseize, 2x Deathrite Shaman, Crypt, Wasteland and Clique are hard to overcome? Yep, they are; esp. when you mull to five and stuggle to cantrip into your second land. A pro tip: use some basic lands.


Round 3, Susie with Sneak Show.
Finally a matchup where it won't matter I don't use basics!
g1: I lost the dice roll and cantripped to find discard. Her turn 2 was: SOL land->S&T->SneakAtt, then LP, sac LP to Sneak Grisly, draw another LP, Sneak Emmy, gg.
sb: discard, Swarms, Chains, Carpets, out Probes, EtW and some one ofs.
g2: She opened with Leyline in her seven. I fetched Tropical and played Swarm. She thought for a while and FoWed. Her turn was Island into cantrip. I fetched USea and played Ponder, pass. She fetched Volc and cantripped. I drawn BS, played BS, played Volcanic, played Ponder which she Flustered which made me curious, but whatever and I passed with Volc, USea and Trop on my side of battlefield. She untapped, played City, played LP, played Blood Moon. Now on I durdled for a few turns and she found Sneak Attack sooner than I found any LP to even have any chance to start the combo.
Finally a matchup where it didn't matter I don't use basics!


Round 4, Jay with D&T
I considered a drop, but then I said to myself that I may play against some very small child, so why not improve my mood a bit?
g1: He won die roll and went turn 1 MoR, turn 2 Thalia, while I twiddled with cantrips. I scooped to his turn 3 Mindcensor played of Wasteland.
sb: removal and Chains instead of a mix of Probes, Therapies and Duresses
g2: I mulled to five (absolutely blank hands, I mean: really blank) and lost to Thalia, Wasteland, Canopy->Teeg, Cannonist x2. (Only after the match was over, I realized he plays several Canopies main and three Teegs sb. Must really hate combo/control).


With a quite bad 0:4 result, it was a pretty annoying tournament I dare to say.

Pros: None. Ok, I sold Mox Opal.
Cons: The whole evening? Ok, I sold that Mox Opal...

I think I'll switch back to Canada for a moment.

[Pdingo]

@bestdecksplayer

Sorry but not to play basics in this deck is completly wrong.
I think a 0:4 is diserved with wrong fetched lands etc and only 1 basic island..

You should play 1 island and 1 swamp and try again insteat of playing canadian^^
You just learning more when you try it again;)

[SaberTooth]

sh*t happens, just try to rebuild your list

[Jay_Gatz]

// Lands
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
//\\
// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Lim-Dul's Vault
3 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
//\\
// Sideboard
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Virtue's Ruin
2 Disfigure
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Carpet of Flowers.

I would be terrified to cast ad nauseam from any life total with this deck.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I would be terrified to cast ad nauseam from any life total with this deck.
Because of what? The one-of EtW? Remember the BW lists? And you needed to find one more ritual to have mana for your BW->awesomeness so it's not like you were better with BW than with EtW main.

It plays like this:
a) Turn-1 hand? Go for EtW.
b) Turn-2 hand? Go for EtW or go for PiF or go for AdN and stop when you're ready to go for EtW/PiF/ToA.
c) Turn-more hand? Kill with PiF.

AdN is tertiary engine.

[Asgar]

Ad Nauseam is a Bad Engine. Everyone, who Knies this de l will know this. It's what Carsten Kötter says and Even Timo Schünemann and Ari Lax call it the worst win-con.
Move it to the SB, Cut a Lotus Petal and a Discard spell for cantrips and/or a Second PIF, Play some Basics and start having success as Long as you cantrip Good enaugh.

[Asthereal]

Everyone, who Knies this de l will know this.
Wait. What? :tongue: Sorry, but I still don't get that sentence after reading it three times.

But it's true that Ad Nauseam Tendrils is a bad Ad Nauseam deck.
TES is already a lot better, though TES also prefers to win through a natural spell chain.

If you want a good Ad Nauseam deck, try my "BR Opal Storm" deck.
It works a bit like Belcher, only with protection main deck.
Here it goes: (Stop reading if you want to play proper Storm!!)

4 Vault of Whispers
4 Great Furnace
4 Badlands
2 Blackcleave Cliffs /14

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Opal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Mox Diamond.
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame /28

4 Duress
3 Thoughtseize /7

4 Infernal Tutor
3 Burning Wish
2 Ad Nauseam
2 Empty the Warrens /11

Side:
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Past in Flames.
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Burning Wish
1 Grapeshot
1 Thoughtseize
3 Shattering Spree
4 Pyroclasm /15

[Jay_Gatz]

Because of what? The one-of EtW? Remember the BW lists? And you needed to find one more ritual to have mana for your BW->awesomeness so it's not like you were better with BW than with EtW main.

It plays like this:
a) Turn-1 hand? Go for EtW.
b) Turn-2 hand? Go for EtW or go for PiF or go for AdN and stop when you're ready to go for EtW/PiF/ToA.
c) Turn-more hand? Kill with PiF.

AdN is tertiary engine.

Extra 4-drop and 2-drops that aren't tutors.

[bjholmes3]

Ad Nauseam is a Bad Engine.

This is something that I've seen a lot of, and it kinda makes me cringe every time. Comparatively speaking, Ad Nauseam is our worst engine, but it is not a bad engine. Yes, it occasionally whiffs, but you can't deny that it's value remains as something we can always do if our grave gets attacked against Past in Flames or if we simply haven't the resources to tutor chain. It's also our most practically hard-castable option, from my experience, so if things go awry, we can always sit back on an Ad Nauseam. It's a very good backup plan, and it's quite decent on it's own.

Also, having read the past few pages, I've become very confused and frustrated. Particularly concerning Sensei's Divining Top. The interaction with Lim-Dul's Vault is cute, to be sure, but the card is slow in its very nature. ANT is already slow(er than other storm decks), but that's because it proactively protects itself with discard to make it more consistent than other storm builds. According to my understanding, SDT slows the deck down even further without offering enough value to offset said consequence. Have I missed something?

[egosum]

This is something that I've seen a lot of, and it kinda makes me cringe every time. Comparatively speaking, Ad Nauseam is our worst engine, but it is not a bad engine. Yes, it occasionally whiffs, but you can't deny that it's value remains as something we can always do if our grave gets attacked against Past in Flames or if we simply haven't the resources to tutor chain. It's also our most practically hard-castable option, from my experience, so if things go awry, we can always sit back on an Ad Nauseam. It's a very good backup plan, and it's quite decent on it's own.

Also, having read the past few pages, I've become very confused and frustrated. Particularly concerning Sensei's Divining Top. The interaction with Lim-Dul's Vault is cute, to be sure, but the card is slow in it's very nature. ANT is already slow(er than other storm decks), but that's because it proactively protects itself with discard to make it more consistent than other storm builds. According to my understanding, SDT slows the deck down even further without without offering enough value to offset said consequence. Have I missed something?

QFT.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[Lemnear]

Also, having read the past few pages, I've become very confused and frustrated. Particularly concerning Sensei's Divining Top. The interaction with Lim-Dul's Vault is cute, to be sure, but the card is slow in it's very nature. ANT is already slow(er than other storm decks), but that's because it proactively protects itself with discard to make it more consistent than other storm builds. According to my understanding, SDT slows the deck down even further without without offering enough value to offset said consequence. Have I missed something?

Nope, you didn't. And because the decks becomes slower and slower with every iteration, suddenly new Problem occur which were previously solved by speed (DRS 4 example) and peeps reconfigurate the deck again to beat those cards with a lot of reactive changes which do nothing to actually advance the gameplan aka make it even slower.

That's a downward spiral.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Well, hell. Do what storm used to do: Get frustrated, find a way to combo faster, and just win that way. Hate is helpful, but when it becomes too much, speed up.

-ABC

[bjholmes3]

One other thing that I don't like to see is Empty the Warrens. Amassing an army of goblins loses much of its threat value after turn one, not to mention that it is yet another card that is just slow(er) by nature. Furthermore, it's more answerable by traditional sideboard options. Think about it; exempting commonalities, Tendrils is hated by Leyline of Sanctity-type effects, and is more vulnerable to taxing, I suppose, since a non-lethal Tendrils is arguably less valuable than EtW. Now, EtW is not only another off-color card, but is hated by mass creature removal and the fact that your opponent is not dead. The fact that Warrens is better on lower storm counts is not that big of a deal, as giving the opponent at least 2 more turns to do things is not the best of ideas. As for hate, Tendrils hate overlaps mainly with Burn hate, whereas Warrens hate overlaps with Elves! hate and Weenie variant hate. Which of these is more likely to be found abundantly in your opponent's Sideboard? Also, given that this is Legacy, many decks will laugh at your two turn post Warrens clock. Hardly the insta-win that Tendrils is.

[Lemnear]

One other thing that I don't like to see is Empty the Warrens. Amassing an army of goblins loses much of its threat value after turn one, not to mention that it is yet another card that is just slow(er) by nature. Furthermore, it's more answerable by traditional sideboard options. Think about it; exempting commonalities, Tendrils is hated by Leyline of Sanctity-type effects, and is more vulnerable to taxing, I suppose, since a non-lethal Tendrils is arguably less valuable than EtW. Now, EtW is not only another off-color card, but is hated by mass creature removal and the fact that your opponent is not dead. The fact that Warrens is better on lower storm counts is not that big of a deal, as giving the opponent at least 2 more turns to do things is not the best of ideas. As for hate, Tendrils hate overlaps mainly with Burn hate, whereas Warrens hate overlaps with Elves! hate and Weenie variant hate. Which of these is more likely to be found abundantly in your opponent's Sideboard? Also, given that this is Legacy, many decks will laugh at your two turn post Warrens clock. Hardly the insta-win that Tendrils is.

You totally miss the forest for the trees.

EtW found it's way into ANT for the same reason TES runs it for a year: lower stormcount needed to kill, cheaper (manawise) than AN or PIF, not graveyard-dependent.

Many decks like RUG Delver can't interact with a resolved EtW game 1 and opponents bringing in Mass-creature hate against a Spell-based deck are plain stupid because all those cards are dead if you go for AN/PIF/spellchain. EtW puts the opponent for games 2&3 in a difficult position do decide if and how much creature removal they keep to be not 100% cold to EtW.

It's like playing Belcher.dec and arguing against Goblin Charbelcher because the opponent can board Artifact-removal or Pithing Needle ignoring that those cards are dead against the EtW-plan of Belcher

[bjholmes3]

Perhaps my traditionalism is interfering with a good opinion on EtW, but do bear in mind, I'm referring to people who have suggested replacing Tendrils and/or AdN with Warrens. Including Warrens as a supplement to the deck is an entirely different matter than making it the focus.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Perhaps my traditionalism is interfering with a good opinion on EtW, but do bear in mind, I'm referring to people who have suggested replacing Tendrils and/or AdN with Warrens. Including Warrens as a supplement to the deck is an entirely different matter than making it the focus.

Empty the Warrens is actually much better than Ad Nauseam against tempo strategies. It is also random sweet against certain combo decks when you have a Therapy hand. I have put in 150+ hours with this deck and have replaced my Ad Nauseam with Empty. It lets me run 2 Grim Tutors comfortably main which makes my Past in Flames better. This has been discussed a ton in the last 6 months or so. You really just need to play different versions of the deck in the current metagame and make a judgment for yourself.

[Lemnear]

Empty the Warrens is actually much better than Ad Nauseam against tempo strategies. It is also random sweet against certain combo decks when you have a Therapy hand. I have put in 150+ hours with this deck and have replaced my Ad Nauseam with Empty. It lets me run 2 Grim Tutors comfortably main which makes my Past in Flames better. This has been discussed a ton in the last 6 months or so. You really just need to play different versions of the deck in the current metagame and make a judgment for yourself.

Without AN you can indeed throw all the Arguments about the 3cc and 3 damage of Grim concerning AN-flips overboard.

But that's no news to me. As i suggested cutting AN months ago because of the issues of being a tertiary engine which fails too often because of the slower nature of ANT (aka loosing more life) and the higher average cc, I was called stupid, 'Cause "AN is still sooooo good". Kinda satisfiying like the predictions that TES and ANT develop towards each other in several elements

[Fatal]

There is one little argument which probably is missed when Ad N will be cut - Speed - you can't mostly kill turn 1-2 which mean you will be dead vs other combo decks which can do that, second argument is about life from cards so Ad N for value where your life doesn't matter or your opponent can't deal you final dmg this turn, I strongly suggest just keep ad N even in sb for those MU.

Note also that EtW is much easier answer then lethal Tendrils - EE, Pyroclasm, Plague, Golgari Charm are very common sb cards.

To fight vs hatebears you have two roads:
- have answers vs them (bounce/removal)
- combo out faster before they came on table

Let get scenerio fightning vs Dark Maverick - you have 1-2 turn before first hatebear hit the table, you can tutor single card with 5 mana floating:
what would you cast:
- EtW for 6
- Ad N

The best +EV play will be Ad N bacause you can:
- draw answer vs hatebear
- end the game right there

EtW way have chance to fizzle since he could sb EE/Plague or just fight with SFM/Batterskull,

Someone will ask also about PiF route - sure but in g2 it will be much harder fight with additional dynamic hate like surgicals.

[Lemnear]

Why the heck do you seriously think your opponents would board creature removal against a storm.dec??

Everytime I read such things I know why some storm isn't more successful. Even some pilots don't have a clue about how the deck works. Depressing

[Zombie]

Why the heck do you seriously think your opponents would board creature removal against a storm.dec??

Everytime I read such things I know why some storm isn't more successful. Even some pilots don't have a clue about how the deck works. Depressing

They can have dead so much dead stuff anti-token sweepers are a good idea. Better to play a marginal card than a blank.

[Patrunkenphat7]

I usually don't win with Empty more than once in the same round. If you don't play it game 1, they are not going to think you have Empty in your "ANT" deck. If you do play it game 1, they might board in some bad cards for it.

People come up with awkward situations where they say they want to cast AN, but I will say that I never want to cast AN with no mana floating in ANT.

Speed - Empty is actually faster than AN, in that you can go off more often turn 1 before the opponent casts discard, Deathrite, or holds up countermagic.

@Lemnear: I've always been a big advocate of this as well and have been on no Ad Nauseam since January. Glad more people are coming around (sort of… I like the surprise factor of Empty…).

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Why the heck do you seriously think your opponents would board creature removal against a storm.dec??


Maybe because people are not that stupid as you think? One Rough/Tumble or Golgari Charm or Pyroclasm or whatever is not going to dilute their deck and if you really think that EtW is that sweet against tempo decks, than why should they miss that fact and lose to it repeatedly.
This thread makes me wanna vomit.

[Lemnear]

Maybe because people are not that stupid as you think? One Rough/Tumble or Golgari Charm or Pyroclasm or whatever is not going to dilute their deck and if you really think that EtW is that sweet against tempo decks, than why should they miss that fact and lose to it repeatedly.
This thread makes me wanna vomit.

Jep, because topdecking 1/2-offs after getting dismantled by Cabal Therapy and flashback via Goblin tokens is a relyable strategy to battle EtW.

The best you can do is prevent EtW. Fighting it after the goblins are on the field is pretty hopeless from the perspective of a Tempo deck

[JUNI0R]

Why the heck do you seriously think your opponents would board creature removal against a storm.dec??

Because I've watched them do it. However, it's fun when they do and don't draw their 1-of, then lose to my horde of 1/1s.

[davelin]

Maybe because people are not that stupid as you think? One Rough/Tumble or Golgari Charm or Pyroclasm or whatever is not going to dilute their deck and if you really think that EtW is that sweet against tempo decks, than why should they miss that fact and lose to it repeatedly.
This thread makes me wanna vomit.

So we are worried about a one-of here?

[bjholmes3]

I suspect my point to have been misunderstood. You see, should Storm go the direction some suggest and ditch AdN and add all the other goodies, should that become the standard deck, people will begin to sideboard for that changed deck. In all truth, they can't really know if you're going to switch wincons on them, but that was always the case. See, I just want to make the point that, if the deck evolves as some have recommended, the consequence is that people will start to adjuct their boards accordingly, and it is much easier to be prepared for an EtW swarm than it is to be prepared for the other wincons this deck provides. As things stand, replacing AdN or Tendrils or whatever works because that is an unusual metagame call and people are unprepared for it. Should this continue, surprise will not be on your side, and people will be much better equiped to deal with you because, as I've mentioned, they will have less competition for SB slots.

[Patrunkenphat7]

I suspect my point to have been misunderstood. You see, should Storm go the direction some suggest and ditch AdN and add all the other goodies, should that become the standard deck, people will begin to sideboard for that changed deck. In all truth, they can't really know if you're going to switch wincons on them, but that was always the case. See, I just want to make the point that, if the deck evolves as some have recommended, the consequence is that people will start to adjuct their boards accordingly, and it is much easier to be prepared for an EtW swarm than it is to be prepared for the other wincons this deck provides. As things stand, replacing AdN or Tendrils or whatever works because that is an unusual metagame call and people are unprepared for it. Should this continue, surprise will not be on your side, and people will be much better equiped to deal with you because, as I've mentioned, they will have less competition for SB slots.

Coming from complete theory, I understand your point… However, when you say things like "replacing AdN or Tendrils or whatever" it makes me feel like you don't understand the point of Empty the Warrens. NOBODY is replacing Tendrils. Empty is an alternative gameplan to Past in Flames or natural tutor chains and gives you options within the game based on your opponent, their opening hand, and your opening hand. Unfortunately people have been "hating out" Ad Nauseam for some time now, and their hate is efficient creatures that attack. If people want to slam a bunch of cards that are specifically good against goblin tokens, that is perfectly fine with me, and it really won't affect how good the deck is against them.

[bjholmes3]

NOBODY is replacing Tendrils.

Oh, my mistake. I thought people were actually wanting to do that, and it made 0 sense. The world seems much more orderly all of a sudden.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Oh, my mistake. I thought people were actually wanting to do that, and it made 0 sense. The world seems much more orderly all of a sudden.

Haha yeah, that would be nuts for sure.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Jep, because topdecking 1/2-offs after getting dismantled by Cabal Therapy and flashback via Goblin tokens is a relyable strategy to battle EtW.

The best you can do is prevent EtW. Fighting it after the goblins are on the field is pretty hopeless from the perspective of a Tempo deck
Oh so, I see. Umm, wait, no. I remember the games when ANT player struggled to do anything reasonable after been hit by my Wastes and counterspells, then he finally made eight smelly tokens and tried to ride them home. That's when my Roughs were helpful, at least a bit more than Dismember...
But I really don't care.



Because I've watched them do it. However, it's fun when they do and don't draw their 1-of, then lose to my horde of 1/1s.
And? So if they instead didn't have the card, would it be easier to win against the horde?



So we are worried about a one-of here?
No. I can't speak for others, but I'm not worried.

[GoldenCid]

Hi there you all!! I'm a couple of days i'll be attending to a gpt in my local town and i was thinking on pushing up ANT. I'd like to hear yours comments on my decklist and some side tips...yeah i'm pretty confidant of my main deck but i feel a bit unsure of what side in and out in specific MU. Here's my deck list:

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [U] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Island (1)
1 [ZEN] Swamp (1)
1 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [R] Badlands
1 [R] Tropical Island

// Spells
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
1 [ISD] Past in Flames
4 [US] Duress
3 [FNM] Cabal Therapy
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
3 [JU] Burning Wish

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [ISD] Past in Flames
SB: 1 [NE] Massacre
SB: 3 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 2 [US] Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [PT] Virtue's Ruin
SB: 2 [SC] Xantid Swarm

I'm expecting mainly combo, midrange and some burn deck in the meta. Here i detail the sideboard cardchoice (correct me at anytime you want):

Tendrils of Agony: well...
Past in Flames: well
Massacre and Virtue's Ruin: to eat thalias and gaddock. Would this cards be Slaughter Pact?
Abrupt decay: general purpose...CB, enchantress, stax.
Carpet and Swarm: non CB control MU.
Cabal therapy: Combo
Empty the Warrens: i like it whan you need to go off fast and the storm count is not enought for a lethal tendrils.
Chain of vapor: i'm not sure why it's there...i copied it from other deck list. Help would be apreciated.

Moreover...i'll be testing every night (south america) up to friday on MWS (Nickname: Naty!!) if you see me and want to test i'd be graceful.

Thx in advance!

GC.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Chain of Vapor is actually a pretty sick card for storm. Not only is it an answer-all to pretty much anything not named Chalice of the Void at 1 and Counterbalance, it can be a storm generator. Imagine this:

Play LED, LED, Chain of Vapor on LED, sac Land, bounce second LED. Replay LED, Replay second LED. This allows for +3 storm off of a single card. It could be compared to IGG, only not gy reliant, and for 3 less, it's a bargain.

Hence, a beautiful little accessory that could one day save your life in combat...

-ABC

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I'm expecting mainly combo, midrange and some burn deck in the meta.
Does the midrange mean Maverick? Because if you have so fast (combo + burn) and maybe non-interactive (if midrange = Jund and such) meta, then maybe you may play without BW as it's a bit faster version.

[Lemnear]

Does the midrange mean Maverick? Because if you have so fast (combo + burn) and maybe non-interactive (if midrange = Jund and such) meta, then maybe you may play without BW as it's a bit faster version.

I tend to agree. Wish is a mighty tool (in a vacuum) if you have to break through defenses (Therapy) or want access to additional Engines (PIF, IGG, DR) or finishers (ToA, EtW) for the cost of speed. In a meta which contains fast combo, burn and midrange decks, which blow you out after a few turns (Thalia/Cannonist from Maverick; Thoughtseize/Hymn from Jund/BUG), speed is king

[bjholmes3]

I also agree. Given your meta, your deck must be as fast as it can possibly be. To this end, I would personally suggest something akin to the following for your MD:

-3 Burning Wish
-1 Discard
+4 Preordain

I suggest Preordain because I feel that you need every cantrip available to 1.) help you get your combo online asap and 2.) protect yourself somewhat from discard 4 cards better.

Also, if Thalia and Teeg are specific things you are worried about, then do consider the inclusion of a SB Karakas. It's gotten me out of many a tight spot, just like George Clooney.

[Final Fortune]

I'm starting to think Thalia, Clique and to a lesser extent Teeg are best answered by not playing Ad Nauseam and by playing Thoughtseize regardless of whether or not you go down the cantrip, wish, tutor or LDV path.

[Lemnear]

I'm starting to think Thalia, Clique and to a lesser extent Teeg are best answered by not playing Ad Nauseam and by playing Thoughtseize regardless of whether or not you go down the cantrip, wish, tutor or LDV path.

Yes, if you cut AN, there is not much reason to run Duress over Thoughtseize, aside the sum of the damage through T'Seize and Probes in addition to the suffered Combat damage

[SaberTooth]

Hi there you all!! I'm a couple of days i'll be attending to a gpt in my local town and i was thinking on pushing up ANT. I'd like to hear yours comments on my decklist and some side tips...yeah i'm pretty confidant of my main deck but i feel a bit unsure of what side in and out in specific MU. Here's my deck list:

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [U] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Island (1)
1 [ZEN] Swamp (1)
1 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [R] Badlands
1 [R] Tropical Island

// Spells
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
1 [ISD] Past in Flames
4 [US] Duress
3 [FNM] Cabal Therapy
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
3 [JU] Burning Wish

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [ISD] Past in Flames
SB: 1 [NE] Massacre
SB: 3 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 2 [US] Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [PT] Virtue's Ruin
SB: 2 [SC] Xantid Swarm

I'm expecting mainly combo, midrange and some burn deck in the meta. Here i detail the sideboard cardchoice (correct me at anytime you want):

Tendrils of Agony: well...
Past in Flames: well
Massacre and Virtue's Ruin: to eat thalias and gaddock. Would this cards be Slaughter Pact?
Abrupt decay: general purpose...CB, enchantress, stax.
Carpet and Swarm: non CB control MU.
Cabal therapy: Combo
Empty the Warrens: i like it whan you need to go off fast and the storm count is not enought for a lethal tendrils.
Chain of vapor: i'm not sure why it's there...i copied it from other deck list. Help would be apreciated.

Moreover...i'll be testing every night (south america) up to friday on MWS (Nickname: Naty!!) if you see me and want to test i'd be graceful.

Thx in advance!

GC.

ill be playing the same gpt as you (i guess XD argentina right?) who are you??

[Darkness]

New to ANT, looking to pick up possible cards for the deck as options. In what metas would I want Dark Confidant?

[Lemnear]

New to ANT, looking to pick up possible cards for the deck as options. In what metas would I want Dark Confidant?

In a pure control meta which doesn't contain counterbalance or SFM & Friends

[Bed Decks Palyer]

In a pure control meta which doesn't contain counterbalance or SFM & Friends
Slosh took it against Maverick when on play to get enough cards (mainly lands) to play around Thalia and then to ultimately Virtue's Ruin them. Otoh, I can't tell if he still plays the Confidant...
It was also quite good card in mirror, after both players Duressed themselves to nothingness. But... you know, the speed of combo matchups...

[GoldenCid]

Thx you all for the advices!!!!
Indeed do you think that preordain could speed up my deck??
I see BW as "win con". If i get it i just need rituals o LED to win. With preordain i depend so much on Infernal tutor to get my win con!
This is a decklist that is almost a copy of mine (MD): http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=11447&iddeck=83648

@Secretly.A.Bee : having decay, creature removal and so on i felt like c of vapor overlaps my side choices. Maybe i'm missing something.

@SaberTooth: you are right! But my indentity will remain in darks... :laugh:

On speed theme: Do you think that lim dul vault could also speed up? Any decklist as example?
What do you think about this?
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=11447&iddeck=83644


Thx again!!

[bjholmes3]

On the topic of Lim-Dul's Vault: I do not reccommend adding it to your deck. There are a lot of reasons I can give if you ask me to, but the main issues I have with it are that on its own it doesn't make an immediate impact on the gamestate (ie more cards in hand, Storm's version of "board presence", I would say), for which it demands more resources.

As for Burning Wish, let me just say this. Having played the 16-cantrip build, my average gameplan has become something along the lines of cantrip/discard T1, cantrip+discard T2, win T3. This is simple because it requires only 2 colors (UB), and my mana base fully supports those two colors. At any time I can count on my deck to reliably produce lands giving me the mana I need for my early game work, allowing me to save my Petals for PiF or for post-Ad Nauseam action. Including Burning wish as a key card means that suddenly your deck depends on three colors to reliably produce you a win on an average of Turn 3. This requires you to either crack your petals early for Wish, or for you to use lands like your Badlands which will not allow you to fulfill all of the functions of your deck. Pre-combo turn, running a 2cmc prep spell cuts down on your actions-per-turn, making it much more difficult to dig+discard T2, say. During the combo turn, BW is nice as long as you can pay for it, but we're not worried about combo turn, we're worried about getting there. Also, this may be a non-issue, but if you're concerned about discard against you, Preordain is better in that sense than Wish because it puts things on top of your deck, safe and sound, instead of right smack in your hand for everyone to know it's there.

tl;dr, other decks, like TES, are faster than we are, but we are still competitive because we have an advantage of our own: disruption. We can't play all the same cards that they do, because we have a different gameplan. Balancing between dig and disruption pre-combo is something that makes us special.

If speed above all else is your objective, don't hesitate to consider other, faster combo decks.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

@Secretly.A.Bee : having decay, creature removal and so on i felt like c of vapor overlaps my side choices. Maybe i'm missing something.

Chain of Vapor is versatile. You may use it on anything from Lodestone Golem to Iona, Shield of Pure Win. Also, it's nice to have against Thalia, esp. when they have MoR. You may Decay EOT (Mothered) and then CoV during your turn.



On the topic of Lim-Dul's Vault: I do not reccommend adding it to your deck. There are a lot of reasons I can give if you ask me to, but the main issues I have with it are that on its own it doesn't make an immediate impact on the gamestate (ie more cards in hand, Storm's version of "board presence", I would say), for which it demands more resources.

Have you tried the card for long enough? Because two-mana instant (though poor man's) Vampiric Tutor/Doomsday is quite solid. I'm really surprised that you dislike the card, even as a fifth Infernal Tutor it isn't bad. Otoh, I like your reasoning on cantrips version and the firm manabase. Just that every time I play the Preordain list I just cantrip into oblivion...

[bjholmes3]

I'll admit, I haven't given Tim's Vault much of a chance. I just don't feel comfortable with the thing. I mean, like I said, having an Index on steroids is nice and all, but I dislike it for the same reason I prefer Ponder to aforementioned Index. I mean, consider the following. We are a shuffle-heavy deck, given our propensity for fetches and for tutors. Combined with our desired combo turn, let's say that we'll only ever see 2 or 3 cards From the Vault, at best (I arrived at this figure assuming EoT2 LDV, draw 1st T3, 2nd if it goes to T4 and we don't shuffle, and cantrip at some point into 3rd), and these are cards that take us time and resources to access.

Now, I'm all about mana efficiency. With those same resources, I could run a T2 Brainstorm, fetch-shuffle, play Ponder, all of which adds two new cards to my hand, dumps unwanted stuff like Tendrils or extra lands, and potentially fixes my next two draws. Sure, those draws probably won't have as much oomph as they would have coming from LDV, but it's powerful enough for this deck to succeed. Or, say it's g2/3 and my opponent has stuff I really don't want to see the light of day. I can T1 Discard, T2 Cantrip/Discard, which in my experience would generally leave me pretty safe to combo.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I'll admit, I haven't given Tim's Vault much of a chance. I just don't feel comfortable with the thing. I mean, like I said, having an Index on steroids is nice and all, but I dislike it for the same reason I prefer Ponder to aforementioned Index. I mean, consider the following. We are a shuffle-heavy deck, given our propensity for fetches and for tutors. Combined with our desired combo turn, let's say that we'll only ever see 2 or 3 cards From the Vault, at best (I arrived at this figure assuming EoT2 LDV, draw 1st T3, 2nd if it goes to T4 and we don't shuffle, and cantrip at some point into 3rd), and these are cards that take us time and resources to access.

Now, I'm all about mana efficiency. With those same resources, I could run a T2 Brainstorm, fetch-shuffle, play Ponder, all of which adds two new cards to my hand, dumps unwanted stuff like Tendrils or extra lands, and potentially fixes my next two draws. Sure, those draws probably won't have as much oomph as they would have coming from LDV, but it's powerful enough for this deck to succeed. Or, say it's g2/3 and my opponent has stuff I really don't want to see the light of day. I can T1 Discard, T2 Cantrip/Discard, which in my experience would generally leave me pretty safe to combo.

I won't argue with you, as you're definitely right on the cantrips matter, esp. if it fits your playstyle. However having a instant-speed, cmc2 Doomsday possibility shouldn't be overlooked, even if it's a card disadvantage and a bit less effective than double cantrip. (Which configuration sadly can't be played from basic Island and basic Swamp if need for those lands arises.)

I urge you to give LDV a one more try, maybe just use a single one. I consider trying something similar. A build based on PiF, with eight fetches, two or three basics, lots of cantrips, and one of LDV plus AdN/EtW might be viable. I still can't decide which one of the secondary/tertiary engines I wish to use, but seen how EtW is working less and less in my meta (due to B-Skulls, Pulses, hordes, PiF combo and Deeds all over the place), I may just speed up the deck, give up the EtW plan and move it to sb keeping it for tempo matches... I read that turn2 AdN is > turn 3 EtW.

[SaberTooth]

On the topic of Lim-Dul's Vault: I do not reccommend adding it to your deck. There are a lot of reasons I can give if you ask me to, but the main issues I have with it are that on its own it doesn't make an immediate impact on the gamestate (ie more cards in hand, Storm's version of "board presence", I would say), for which it demands more resources.

As for Burning Wish, let me just say this. Having played the 16-cantrip build, my average gameplan has become something along the lines of cantrip/discard T1, cantrip+discard T2, win T3. This is simple because it requires only 2 colors (UB), and my mana base fully supports those two colors. At any time I can count on my deck to reliably produce lands giving me the mana I need for my early game work, allowing me to save my Petals for PiF or for post-Ad Nauseam action. Including Burning wish as a key card means that suddenly your deck depends on three colors to reliably produce you a win on an average of Turn 3. This requires you to either crack your petals early for Wish, or for you to use lands like your Badlands which will not allow you to fulfill all of the functions of your deck. Pre-combo turn, running a 2cmc prep spell cuts down on your actions-per-turn, making it much more difficult to dig+discard T2, say. During the combo turn, BW is nice as long as you can pay for it, but we're not worried about combo turn, we're worried about getting there. Also, this may be a non-issue, but if you're concerned about discard against you, Preordain is better in that sense than Wish because it puts things on top of your deck, safe and sound, instead of right smack in your hand for everyone to know it's there.

tl;dr, other decks, like TES, are faster than we are, but we are still competitive because we have an advantage of our own: disruption. We can't play all the same cards that they do, because we have a different gameplan. Balancing between dig and disruption pre-combo is something that makes us special.

If speed above all else is your objective, don't hesitate to consider other, faster combo decks.

you are right about vault, but i think that burning wish is a really good card, but is a meta choice, i mean, with hatebears bw, or tnt, is just better, i mean, bw for virtues ruin and you can win, with ubg ant you cant beat a teeg md, but the problem with tnt is that splashing green for decay is awful with the manabase

[Bed Decks Palyer]

you are right about vault, but i think that burning wish is a really good card, but is a meta choice, i mean, with hatebears bw, or tnt, is just better, i mean, bw for virtues ruin and you can win, with ubg ant you cant beat a teeg md, but the problem with tnt is that splashing green for decay is awful with the manabase
That's where Disfigure/ET/CoV may work better. After all, if your main concern are bears (moreover taxing ones) and not Counterbalance, than CoV is clearly better as it costs half the price, is on color and works as a storm engine if it matters.

[spg]

I'll admit, I haven't given Tim's Vault much of a chance. I just don't feel comfortable with the thing. I mean, like I said, having an Index on steroids is nice and all, but I dislike it for the same reason I prefer Ponder to aforementioned Index. I mean, consider the following. We are a shuffle-heavy deck, given our propensity for fetches and for tutors. Combined with our desired combo turn, let's say that we'll only ever see 2 or 3 cards From the Vault, at best (I arrived at this figure assuming EoT2 LDV, draw 1st T3, 2nd if it goes to T4 and we don't shuffle, and cantrip at some point into 3rd), and these are cards that take us time and resources to access.

Now, I'm all about mana efficiency. With those same resources, I could run a T2 Brainstorm, fetch-shuffle, play Ponder, all of which adds two new cards to my hand, dumps unwanted stuff like Tendrils or extra lands, and potentially fixes my next two draws. Sure, those draws probably won't have as much oomph as they would have coming from LDV, but it's powerful enough for this deck to succeed. Or, say it's g2/3 and my opponent has stuff I really don't want to see the light of day. I can T1 Discard, T2 Cantrip/Discard, which in my experience would generally leave me pretty safe to combo.

I've been testing with Lim-Dul's Vault recently, and the more I test with it, the more I like it. Here's why: It's not a weakened Vampiric Tutor because it usually tutors for more than one card. I often end up in the situation with this deck where I need a Lion's Eye Diamond + any ritual to win, or an Infernal Tutor + any ritual, or Infernal Tutor + any land. In these situations it's usually possible to find both of these in a 5-card Lim-Dul's Vault stack at the end of my opponent's turn, draw into one, and then Gitaxian Probe (or Brainstorm or something) into the other so I can win on my turn. Any cantrip that you have in your hand allows Lim-Dul's vault to tutor more cards into your hand quickly. For this reason, I don't think the comparisons to Vampiric Tutor are perfect - the card often has a different role.

I'm not saying Lim-Dul's Vault is perfect, and it definitely has its weaknesses - but being able to tutor for more than one card can get you out of some insanely bad situations. It has been better in my testing than I'd expected it to be.

[Tombstalker]

LDV feels poor at first but the more you use it the more fluid it feels. Being EoT is also often just amazing and with any cantrip in hand it can go off the same turn. I really came to love that card after dismissing it initially. Its also good at finding removal for teeg and friends.

I've been running 1 CoV main for awhile now and lately ive also been testing 1 cabal pit as well since it dodges mom and isnt taxed by thalia.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

LDV feels poor at first but the more you use it the more fluid it feels. Being EoT is also often just amazing and with any cantrip in hand it can go off the same turn. I really came to love that card after dismissing it initially. Its also good at finding removal for teeg and friends.

I've been running 1 CoV main for awhile now and lately ive also been testing 1 cabal pit as well since it dodges mom and isnt taxed by thalia.

I like the Cabal Pit idea.

[bjholmes3]

That's a peculiar choice. What specifically are you trying to hit with the pit?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

That's a peculiar choice. What specifically are you trying to hit with the pit?
Hatebear.

[bjholmes3]

As in Thalia or Teeg specifically? Because I would say Karakas is a better choice for those buggers.

[Lemnear]

Heart of the Storm Vol. 5 - Hero's Come Back! (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26658-Heart-of-the-Storm-5-Hero-s-Come-Back!) is finally online on MTG TheSource! Check it out!

[GoldenCid]

THx once more!!!
I'll keep chain of vapor to side in against hatebears at the same time i keep massacre / virtue's ruin for wishing.

Sorry but i'm to fixed to BW builds i prefer answers to speed. :)

So...TES or ANT¿?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umRU6iYO0R4

[Tombstalker]

bjholmes3
As in Thalia or Teeg specifically? Because I would say Karakas is a better choice for those buggers.
Ya those mostly although other annoying non legendary hatebears too. Karakas is straight better for those and I do run one in the board but the on color of pit does matter at times for faster wins game 1. Its just an idea not sure ill stick with it yet or not but so far Ive liked upping the land count with something that doubles as an out. The life loss is also not really relevant.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Karakas doesn't add black and cannot remove Cannonist. Not that I gonna snap-swap one dual for Pit, but I still find it interesting!

[thefringthing]

Guys guys guys. I solved every hatebear problem for all time a couple pages ago. Teferi's Realm.

[Star|Scream]

Guys guys guys. I solved every hatebear problem for all time a couple pages ago. Teferi's Realm.

Can't tell if trolling or...

[bjholmes3]

Has to be trolling. That card isn't even remotely close to being effective.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Has to be trolling. That card isn't even remotely close to being effective.

Three mana kinda-WoG is not exactly ineffective. It's no Curse of the Swine...