[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) [Archive] - Page 24

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nevilshute

10-30-2013, 03:15 PM

To all experienced Tendrils players out there:

I am an experienced legacy player of 4 years now and I am currently thinking about running this deck. I have read just about every page on this thread and have seen how the deck has evolved the past few years.

However, does anyone have any good recommendations for articles to read that dive into the inner-workings of the deck in the current format? Things I am looking for are frequent lines of play, tips and tricks, playing around hate, and just overall getting there.

Thanks,

Bryan

I'd start out by reading all of Carsten Cotter's articles on storm on scg. Also, Timo Schünemann's article on his win at GP Ghent is nice reading.

davelin

10-30-2013, 03:29 PM

A situation came up this weekend at Indy I was unsure about.

R6 against Shardless BUG. G3 he Thoughtseize/Hymns me down but I manage to empty for 10 goblins. His board is 3 land Deathrite 2 Jace in hand, 15 life. I'm at 13 life. He plays Jace, tapping Deathrite, brainstorms and plays land. I draw and can either kill Jace or go for his face. I decide to kill Jace, hitting him down to 8 to play around pulse/charm. His top 2 cards were probably dead so if he played his 2nd Jace, he couldn't cast Pulse. Next turn he drops 2x Goyf and a Deathrite and manages to stabilize. Would it be correct to go for his face instead of Jace? He told me after he boarded out his pulse and didn't bring in any charms.

Attack face, Jace has already dug three cards off the top so it's done the majority of its work already.

Lemnear

10-30-2013, 03:50 PM

I'd start out by reading all of Carsten Cotter's articles on storm on scg. Also, Timo Schünemann's article on his win at GP Ghent is nice reading.

Imo you can skip Timo's because it's not only ages old but the deck itself is pretty much outdated because he kicked the Wishes. Carstens articles about ANT & TES are pretty good even if there are some minor details missing ;)

I recommend reading those .

Dark Ritual

10-30-2013, 03:58 PM

Shardless BUG is a very winnable matchup so long as you aren't a novice/not good at playing storm combo. Oh no they have discard. That's not particularly relevant when you have brainstorm or manage your cantrips correctly as discard isn't any good at disrupting an infernal, ad nauseam, or past in flames on top of your deck. I like it even more when they discard me when I have a bob in play, that's the funnest because you really don't care.

@Gregton: Bad beats happen. Sometimes your opponents rip the nuts and tear you to shreds. But I also hate your decklist. 1 LDV 1 Wish? How, pray tell, did you settle on that configuration for the 4 flex slots (the 4 preordain slots are the flex slots in this deck as some people despise them and some people love them for some reason.) Also, cracking LED in response to AdN with a petal in play? I wouldn't do that short of an abrupt decay/someone trying to blow up my LED in response to ad nauseam as you already have the IMS for dark ritual post AdN but you're making it so you need to find another LED to get hellbent for the infernal tutor you flip that will very likely be your path to ToA unless you're one of those lucky people who get to treat ad nauseam as infernal contract/draw dark rit, petal, LED, infernal.

gregtron

10-30-2013, 05:01 PM

@Gregton: Bad beats happen. Sometimes your opponents rip the nuts and tear you to shreds. But I also hate your decklist. 1 LDV 1 Wish? How, pray tell, did you settle on that configuration for the 4 flex slots (the 4 preordain slots are the flex slots in this deck as some people despise them and some people love them for some reason.) Also, cracking LED in response to AdN with a petal in play? I wouldn't do that short of an abrupt decay/someone trying to blow up my LED in response to ad nauseam as you already have the IMS for dark ritual post AdN but you're making it so you need to find another LED to get hellbent for the infernal tutor you flip that will very likely be your path to ToA unless you're one of those lucky people who get to treat ad nauseam as infernal contract/draw dark rit, petal, LED, infernal.

I know, I just wanted to complain to some people who've been there, especially losing to Affinity in at the 0-2 table when he boarded in 14 cards. That definitely feels absurd enough to go on the source and cry to you bastards, especially since I maxed out all my friends' bad beat story quotas.

I love how touchy literally every storm player is about the flex slots. No sarcasm, either, I mean we're all guilty of looking at a manabase that's one card different and accusing the other person of being literally Hitler. But is it really worth restarting the I-hate-Ad-Naus-I-Love-Vault conversation from ten pages back? The deck gives me the lines I want in specific situations, everyone is retarded, we're all quitting storm forever, etc.

I don't remember the specifics, but I assume it was a combination of being under pressure and floating an LED from Ponder/Brainstorm. I remember it felt like (at the time) the higher percentage chance of winning. I'm definitely not one of those lucky-ad-naus guys, or really any card that lets me dig deep for certain things. The Saturday before, I was whiffing on Garruk +1's in Standard, too, so I should probably either do an animal sacrifice to Maro or take a break from combo decks for a while.

Secretly.A.Bee

10-31-2013, 02:15 AM

Animal sacrifice. Do it.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

Bed Decks Palyer

10-31-2013, 02:51 AM

...everyone is retarded, we're all quitting storm forever, etc.

:confused: But I really sold the deck...

Ok, so if the Affinity guy boarded 14 cards, there's no surprise you've lost. Also, note that no other deck than Affi may use it. I wouldn't mind that, unless you plan to meet him over and over again. Note that the others had a bit more reasonable sb, not a storm-killer.
Also, I need to see Slosh asap, I'm pretty interested how his 2 maindecked Bolts work. The meta is so full of annoying small creatures, be it DRS, Thalia, Teeg, Confidant; you may even buy a turn at the very least by killing Delver. I know that the idea of plaing Bolts in storm is silly, but I won't be the one to dismiss it before I'll listen to his experiences.
It really depends on meta, e.g. our lgs is full of DRS and D&T.

edit:
I had some real success with builds using Dark Confidant. I know all the troubles with this creature and I also know that today's meta is faster and I also know that opponents don't take out all removal, but still, lets BS about Bob a bit.
First of all, he's your upkeep "cantrip" that doesn't eat mana or (in case of opposing Cannonist) a spell count. He succesfully blocks all non-Thalia bears or attacks in return if the opponent decides that he'll swing while using your DC-induced lifeloss as another kinda attacker/Vortex. Part of what makes Confi good (even against creature heavy decks like Mav) is that you may play him turn1 without much trouble and got your few draws out of him before the opponent puts anything harmful into his way or forces you to chump. (You may ignore most of the turn1-3 creature plays and/or attacks, unless we're talking about Ornithoptere with Plating or some absurd Goyf or anything similar.) What I'm trying to say is that even if DC's triggers and opposing creatures threaten you with a big damage, it won't happend before turn3 maybe even turn4 and esp. against non-Plating non-Warchief decks you may quite easily count the expected combat dmg dealt and thus "dose" it and echange it for card advantage until the time comes to sac DC into CT or force him into red zone on a suicidal mission for king and fatherland. What I also found extremely helpful about him (this is mainly true for the 3-basics build) is that he brings you land drops you'd otherwise be depraved of due to your inability to properly cantrip under Thalia/Cannonist,thus helping you to reach the needed mana for Clasm/Ruin, with the latter been my weapon of choice for quite some time, as it (a) doesn't kill neither Confi nor Goblins and (b) takes care of all the pesky non-Ooze hatebears even if they got Mom/KotR/SOFI... actually: any SO1&2.

I'd try something like the following sb (note that it's meant to be played with a few BWs):
1 ToA
1 EtW
1 Virtue's Ruin
1 Echoing Truth (for double Cannonist/Leyline situations and to dodge CotV@1)
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Disfigure (DRS*, Thalia, Cannonist, Ooze, Teeg, etc.)
4 Xantid Swarm (because blue is the color of our format)
4 Dark Confidant (you really wnat him turn1-2. A pro tip: don't rush him into Dryad Arbor.)

*) Although ppl may argue that DRS is easy to play around, you may just blow him on spot and cause a serious headache to the opponent that heavily depends on the little elf.

edit2: Also, in case you need an answer for Affi, then Rebuild exists... It odoges CotV and they don't play Waste, so the increased manacost compared to Hurkyl's Recall doesn't hurt. But yeah, it's genrally an awful sb choice.

Sent from my semaphor using whale fat lamp.

Danserious

10-31-2013, 07:32 PM

I'm kinda excited about Toxic Deluge. I know it kills my goblins but if I have to cast it AFTER I make a bunch of goblins I'm probably losing anyway.

JamieW89

11-01-2013, 06:38 PM

6-1'd The legacy trial at bom.

Matchups:
Death & Taxes 2-0
Jund 2-1 (lost to triple thorn g2)
UW Miracles 1-2 (he had it all g3)
RUG Delver 2-0
Patriot 2-0
Merfolk 2-0
Esper Blade 2-0

Might write something later, Main Event tommorow.

Rook1e

11-01-2013, 06:50 PM

Lans89

11-02-2013, 03:13 AM

Also 6-1'd the trial for a french BB sea and 1 bye =)!

Reanimate 2-1
Painter 2-1
Uwb Blade 2-1
Painter (2x retarded fizzle -_-) 0-2
Jund 2-0
Pyromamcer Delver 2-0
Painter 2-0

I'll write more after the event! Jamie and I will first fight our way to day 2 ^_^!

DarkJester

11-02-2013, 04:06 AM

Congratz to you, Stormtroopers. May the force be with you today. ;) I am also interested in your list after the event.

Lans89

11-02-2013, 06:35 PM

JamieW89

11-02-2013, 07:14 PM

My pairings for main event day-1. I lost every single g1 and all matches were close with the better player usually winning. Did make some mistakes though..

R1-2 Bye 2-0
R3 UR Painter 2-1 3-0
R4 UB Death's Shadow 2-1 4-0
R5 Affinity 2-1 5-0
R6 Patriot 2-1
R7 BUG Cascade 1-2 6-1
R8 Death Blade 2-1 7-1
R9 Patriot 2-1 8-1

Dark Ritual

11-02-2013, 07:26 PM

6-3 for me on the main event =(!

Lost to Miracles with postboard RIP, clique, snare, Pierce, fow, snap and yeah.. Portent and ORIM'S CHANT!! No way I would win that match. The other losses were VS my deck itself... 5-8 turns no tutor or even a cantrip after keeping stable hands like; ritual, fetch, Island, led, probe, duress, carpet... Maybe I should just mulligan every hand without a
Tutor or cantrip or stop boarding out preordain :P! I got killed by 1 lavamancer in one of those games.

Jamie went 8-1 (yeah!) and has a good standing for day 2 =)! He won the last match VS Esper that named Ad Nauseam with Meddling Mage, quite funny because he didn't even side it in and naming either Infernal or tendrils is always better.

Anyway, I'm still happy with my 6-1 from yesterday and the french BB Sea (exe). People are willing to pay 230 for them! Tomorrow I will play the trial for next BoM and hope to rock some more!

I'd snap pay 300 for an EX FBB sea regardless of language. But I'm stateside/they aren't as common here as over there.

Maindeck bolts over chain of vapor or other bounce spells is very wrong, and mainboard bounce spells typically aren't right unless the meta calls for it. I wouldn't play bolt in the maindeck or sideboard for that matter as it is less versatile in comparison to other options unless you're going to try to raw tendrils them with bolts to finish them off but that seems like an awful plan.

DragoFireheart

11-03-2013, 07:45 AM

I have never played a Storm Combo deck before. I've played aggro, burn, elves, control, mid-range, and even odd decks like affinity.

I could go through this thread, but at 200+ pages it's a lot to go through. Does anyone have a article that gives information about this deck?

NesretepNoj

11-03-2013, 08:43 AM

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?11184-DTB-ANT-(Ad-Nauseam-Tendrils)&p=736601&highlight=#post736601

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26588_Raiding-The-Necromancers-Vault.html

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26673_Storm-Training-Regimen.html

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26624_Comparative-Storming.html

DragoFireheart

11-03-2013, 11:42 AM

Thanks.

How rewarding do you find it to play Storm combo like ANT or TES? Details and anecdotes are welcome.

Zombie

11-03-2013, 01:05 PM

Thanks.

How rewarding do you find it to play Storm combo like ANT or TES? Details and anecdotes are welcome.

Very, though it doesn't quite compare to Hoofing people. There's a special charm to doing all the traditionally blue-black broken things with green cards, I guess. Plus I like turning critters sideways :P

3rd placing Storm deck. Spot the wtf.
EDIT: NOT MY DECK, I DID NOT PLAY AT BOM (And would have been playing Elves anyway).

//Lands
1 Badlands
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Swamp
1 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta

//Spells:
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Burning Wish
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Ponder
4 Preordain

//Sideboard
1 Past in Flames
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Deathmark
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Extirpate
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Massacre
1 Meltdown
1 Pyroclasm
1 Reverent Silence
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Tropical Island
1 Wipe Away

Dia_Bot

11-03-2013, 01:09 PM

Very, though it doesn't quite compared to Hoofing people.

3rd placing Storm deck. Spot the wtf.

What? Where is the best card in Legacy?... No Brainstorm......:eek:

Tanith

11-03-2013, 01:23 PM

Nice to read this. Congrats! :D But true, No brainstorm! Which were your reason not to play it? Did you find better to run Preordain and Ponder over it?

Recently bought a playset of Lion's Eye Diamond and 2x Underground sea for playing this deck (also bought a personalize playmat with a tendrils hand-made drawing on it <3) and TES also. Anyway, good to know this deck still up there, with all the hate WotC is printing.

Im sure the following questions have been already ask, but just one to keep them sort in one post, (and there are more than 200 pages to read :eek:)

-B. Wish version better or worst? Guess it's depending on meta maybe? Yes, the first matches are not completely lost against certain MU due to being able to recur to the SB. Worths it?
-More consistent, but better than TES? One kills more with AdN or PiF, the other seems to rely on putting a bunch of tokens during the first couple of turns. Question this, because I love Silence also, but I don't see running Silence on normal Ad Nauseam Tendrils build. Pretty sure someone tested it, how was?

So I still have a lot to learn and a lot to read (thanks above for the links to the articles).

Again, Well done @Zombie and congrats on your top 3.

Zombie

11-03-2013, 01:30 PM

Dia_Bot

11-03-2013, 01:56 PM

Lol, no no no no. I didn't play at BoM XD
Even if I did, I would've been at the helm of a horde of pointy-eared forest-dwelling gits.
I just posted the list for people to see and discuss because it was so odd. Though I think the setup makes a certain amount of sense.

Zombie could you maybe post a link to all the top 8 decklists? I can't seem to find all of them together..:tongue:

Einherjer

11-03-2013, 01:57 PM

http://bazaar-of-moxen.com/en_magic-top8-mtg-top-8-vintage-ranking-legacy-rank-bom-top.html

Dia_Bot

11-03-2013, 02:08 PM

http://bazaar-of-moxen.com/en_magic-top8-mtg-top-8-vintage-ranking-legacy-rank-bom-top.html

Thanks :smile:

Tanith

11-03-2013, 04:10 PM

Lol, no no no no. I didn't play at BoM XD
Even if I did, I would've been at the helm of a horde of pointy-eared forest-dwelling gits.
I just posted the list for people to see and discuss because it was so odd. Though I think the setup makes a certain amount of sense.

Haha I know I know. But thought you played at some kind of Trial of BoM or another big tournament :)

Anyway, looking at the decklist of Timo, why that single Top? Lot I've hear about that, but, worths it? Wouldn't be better LdV?

Machahiko

11-03-2013, 07:50 PM

Like I understand the single top, it's another really good tool for finding pieces and possibly floating AdN or PiF on top, you'll be able to just activate top and then play what's on top of your deck.

I'm more interested in the list with 0 brainstorms, sideboards and only one of these decks played Grim Tutor. One didn't even play Ad Nauseam in maindeck! I'm very interested in Timo Schünemann's decklist, but I don't really know about this one of Tormod's Crypt. What is it against, other ANT decks, dredge and maybe more time against RUG or what?

GoblinZ

11-03-2013, 08:05 PM

Griselpuff

11-03-2013, 08:49 PM

I'm guessing there are typos. AN in Timo's SB? Also I believe the Preordains in the list are Brainstorms. Otherwise I would have to drastically alter my world view.

Countertoplol

11-03-2013, 08:56 PM

Do you see that there is one leyline in his sb, which really confuses me

Having a single leyline gives you a decent enough chance at having a leyline without devoting 4 slots to it. I believe the idea was started by Lejay who was running one in the sideboard of DDFT and also ran one in his original omnitell list.

MTG Junkie

11-03-2013, 09:06 PM

http://bazaar-of-moxen.com/en_magic-top8-mtg-top-8-vintage-ranking-legacy-rank-bom-top.html

Put a big :smile: on my face! Thanks for the link! Awesome to see Storm do so well.

JamieW89: Iv been on this thread for a long time and always appreciate your posts. Congrats!

Mindlash

11-04-2013, 12:42 AM

I'm guessing there are typos. AN in Timo's SB? Also I believe the Preordains in the list are Brainstorms. Otherwise I would have to drastically alter my world view.

The Ad Nauseam in the Sideboard was his second Chain of Vapor.

Lans89

11-04-2013, 03:00 AM

Jamie had ad nauseam main when he 6-1'd the trial, but for the main event he switched ad nauseam and empty. He is not the only one who argues that ad nauseam could be moved to the sideboard. The leyline is indeed a singleton answer versus discard etc, but also a nice tool for the mirror which might be common during tournaments.

And yeah those preordains in the other list must be brainstorms.. I can't imagine being succesfull without it! But last BoM I was also confused about the list with 3 Ad-N :P

Dia_Bot

11-04-2013, 03:28 PM

Does anyone know if Grzegorz Jezierski will write a report ? I'm interested to know his insights in the wishboard he used.

Fatal

11-04-2013, 04:41 PM

I will ask him ;) his my buddy

Dia_Bot

11-05-2013, 04:17 AM

I will ask him ;) his my buddy

Thanks :)

Fatal

11-05-2013, 01:01 PM

There gonna be a interview in polish on http://psychatog.pl/ for sure, he don't want to give a promise until he will be sure that he can realize them - that's about the article/report.

Dia_Bot

11-05-2013, 04:41 PM

There gonna be a interview in polish on http://psychatog.pl/ for sure, he don't want to give a promise until he will be sure that he can realize them - that's about the article/report.

Thanks for the info. I'll try to understand the interview with the use of google translate once it's up (since I can't really read polish) and will be looking out for any info regarding the (potential) report.

MTG Junkie

11-05-2013, 09:52 PM

Dia_Bot

11-06-2013, 01:49 AM

Yet with all these changes i cant bring myself to play a non Wish version,why? lol

Haha I've come to the same conclusion.
I actually do play a very similar list to yours with the only differences being:
-2 dark confidant, -1 DoN,-1 bayou, +1 sweeper, +2 CoV, +1 meltdown (painter is a deck in my meta..).
I still like cov to get rid of leylines and such.

Patrunkenphat7

11-06-2013, 04:35 PM

Massacre is much better than Dread of Night right now imo. The Death and Taxes decks bring in Canonists that you need double DoN to kill. There are also some Meddling Mages running around. Mother of Runes Teeg decks aren't especially popular.

Jeff

11-06-2013, 05:24 PM

I agree, I much prefer Massacre. How are people bringing in Dread of Night sideboarding against D&T? Their sideboards are so screwy that they could easily have Mindbreak Trap or Leyline in addition to all of the hate bears. I prefer Massacre because it actually kills Phyrexian Revoker and Ethersworn Canonist as well as Thalia. Of course, Massacre makes Ad Nauseam worse, and since they can also bring in Rest in Peace, you have to keep in Ad Nauseam in case they shut off Past in Flames. It's can be a really awkward guessing game trying to figure out what you need to be playing against.

MTG Junkie

11-06-2013, 05:56 PM

Massacre seems fine,iv played a one of in the board before. Double Dread of Night locks them out of the game. All the other stuff is easyer to play around without all the bears.

Jeff

11-06-2013, 06:01 PM

I jsut don't like needing Double Dread to win. If I draw Massacre, I'm probably winning, if I draw Dread, I need to draw something else too.

Koby

11-06-2013, 06:07 PM

I still like Virtue's Ruin best of all, because it doesn't care about whether they are x/1 or x/2, and it kills KotR just the same.

Most importantly, it still kills Canonist/Thalia when they are equipped with Sword of X&Y.

I imagine cards to bring in are: Chain of Vapor (upto 3), Abrupt Decay (2 max), and 1-2 Virtue's Ruin depending on your SB configuration.

jjflipped

11-06-2013, 06:16 PM

Why aren't we just casting Toxic Deluge?

Koby

11-06-2013, 06:19 PM

Why aren't we just casting Toxic Deluge?

Because it doesn't come in Korean obviously. What deck other than White hate-bears would we want a sweeper to begin with?

Namida

11-06-2013, 06:39 PM

Because it doesn't come in Korean obviously. What deck other than White hate-bears would we want a sweeper to begin with?

I have five Japanese ones in front of me right now. They didn't print Commander 2013 in Korean? That's madness.

Anyway, I like Toxic Deluge because it's a little worse at killing the hatebears you care about for the added benefit of being able to kill everything in any matchup should you desire to do so. I think the card is only good if you're playing Burning Wish though because you don't want to cast this card more than once (so you don't want to draw it more than once), and I'm still not sure that Burning Wish is where you want to be playing this deck.

Patrunkenphat7

11-06-2013, 06:50 PM

Virtue's Ruin is a pretty unrealistic card in a lot of situations. It costs 4 mana to kill Thalia, and D+T is running 4 Wasteland and 4 Rishadan Port.

Koby

11-06-2013, 06:59 PM

Virtue's Ruin is a pretty unrealistic card in a lot of situations. It costs 4 mana to kill Thalia, and D+T is running 4 Wasteland and 4 Rishadan Port.

All arguments for Toxic Deluge and Virtue's Ruin are effectively equal. They both cost :2::b: and would equally cost a literal million mana against Thalia.

Patrunkenphat7

11-06-2013, 07:07 PM

All arguments for Toxic Deluge and Virtue's Ruin are effectively equal. They both cost :2::b: and would equally cost a literal million mana against Thalia.

Oh yes, agreed. I play Massacre over all of these expensive sweepers.

Namida

11-06-2013, 07:07 PM

If Death and Taxes is your only concern, I would say Massacre is generally better; however, I've had some embarrassing games where Jitte connected so I couldn't kill a hatebear with Massacre, and there have been games where my opponent manages to avoid playing a Plains the entire game to make me look silly. Teeg runs rampant where I play so Massacre is uncastable though, so I'd play Virtue's Ruin/Massacre before I would play cards like Massacre and Dread of Night which don't deal with that problem.

Patrunkenphat7

11-06-2013, 09:47 PM

I think You might want a couple Karakas or Disfigures if Teeg is popular. Virtue's Ruin is just so expensive, and when they play a Thalia, you cry. I don't think you should realistically build your deck with equipment in mind, because they aren't connecting until turn 4 or later, at which point you should have been able to at least Massacre them if not kill them.

I wouldn't play multiple Massacres if the metagame was Maverick over Death and Taxes, but right now Death and Taxes seems very popular.

gregtron

11-07-2013, 11:40 AM

Do you guys not love Pyroclasm? I do.

Jeff

11-07-2013, 04:57 PM

Do you guys not love Pyroclasm? I do.

Pyroclasm is still 3 against Thalia and requires that you fetch up red mana before your combo turn against a wasteland deck. I far prefer Massacre or Dread of Night which cost 1 or 2 through Thalia and play with the color you have basics of.

gregtron

11-07-2013, 05:16 PM

Pyroclasm is still 3 against Thalia and requires that you fetch up red mana before your combo turn against a wasteland deck. I far prefer Massacre or Dread of Night which cost 1 or 2 through Thalia and play with the color you have basics of.

I still run Massacre, it's just that I've been running Pyroclasm alongside it as a cover-all for Teeg, Canonist, Shaman, etc.

Jay_Gatz

11-07-2013, 10:26 PM

I usually play TES but I played Timo's list -1 crypt +1 rebuild (meta reasons) to a 4-0 at my weekly last night. I'm not sure if the singleton top is better than a grim tutor so I'm going to test with a tutor on Sunday. Deck felt solid and I'm debating switching for the GP.

In the past I've almost exclusively played wish builds so I'm not completely sold but I'm going to test more.

topef27

11-08-2013, 12:21 AM

Mindlash

11-08-2013, 01:55 AM

Hi there, I'm relatively new to storm (just switched from High Tide), but I was wondering about some of the recent top8 lists from this past weekend. It looks like a couple of them have an additional Ad Nauseam in the sideboard. In what match-ups would you side in an additional AN? and doesn't this make your ANs more deadly to yourself by increasing your number of high CMC cards?

One of them played AN in the sideboard because there was an Empty the Warrens in the Main instead of it.
The other one (Timo's deck) was a typo by the BoM staff. It should be a second Chain of Vapor, making Jonathans ANT list from the Trial the only list with two AN (both main) which he played to push his kill turn.

This post is only regarding BoM. I haven't checked the other legacy tournaments from the US yet.

Greetings Mindlash

Jonathan Alexander

11-08-2013, 06:19 AM

I ended up writing about the philosophy behind my list: Link. (http://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2013/11/08/bazaar-of-moxen-paris-storm-primer/)

ThomasDowd

11-08-2013, 01:38 PM

I still run Massacre, it's just that I've been running Pyroclasm alongside it as a cover-all for Teeg, Canonist, Shaman, etc.

mirror goblin tokens (have done this at least once).

ThomasDowd

11-08-2013, 01:42 PM

Hi there, I'm relatively new to storm (just switched from High Tide), but I was wondering about some of the recent top8 lists from this past weekend. It looks like a couple of them have an additional Ad Nauseam in the sideboard. In what match-ups would you side in an additional AN? and doesn't this make your ANs more deadly to yourself by increasing your number of high CMC cards?

basically just more raw business.

TES used to play 2 for a period of time because often it is one of the best engines to kill with since it generates a ton of storm(from access to more puire cards) and a ton of mana( see previous paren) once it resolves and you have access to 10-15 more cards. playign it naturally is also better than tutoring due to mana constrictions and the restrictions on IT.

MTG Junkie

11-08-2013, 02:03 PM

I ended up writing about the philosophy behind my list: Link. (http://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2013/11/08/bazaar-of-moxen-paris-storm-primer/)

Good read.

Sloshthedark

11-08-2013, 05:43 PM

BOM 8

just short (eh not much after all) report on general Bom experience with some notes of interest, not that I did particulary well...

till Monday evening I believed I will not attend due to logistic and financial probles I face... suddenly a number of people calls me they plan to go and need a driver for friday night, I dislike both driving through the night (I don't expect to play well after 9 hour drainlife) and want to attend the trials, after a try to book a flight, Paris transport system examination, finding accomodation (pretty cheap, 30m from site) and some counting we settle on Thursday overnight drive and we are off to go. Mist on german highways, 2 hour sleep in suburban Paris and around 9 I find myself with coffee and decklist in hands, bloody eyes, sneezing in a tropical hall full of weird people.. I ask myself - WHY?

List

4 Infernal Tutor
1 Grim Tutor
1 Lim Dul's Vault

2 Past in Flames
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lions Eye Diamond
3 Lotus Petal

1 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Lightning Bolt

4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island¨
1 Badlands

SB:
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Notion Thief
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Karakas
1 Extirpate¨
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Pyroblast

FRIDAY

7 round trial

1-2 or 2-2 drop, 1st elves 2-0, last Jund 1-2, no memories in between... most memorable - manual reg. system crashed so judges had to rebuilt it from decklists

5 round last chance trial

1-2 UBG Tempo
the name sounds familiar to me... what I get is a tattoed german/russian guy, he tells me to shuffle lightly if I have to, my guess is jap foil tempo or control, I get jap foil altered Dark Thresh
G1 - I run into a Fow due to pressure I think
G2 - Xantid swarm > his SB strategy
G3 - Shaman->Confidant-> 3 stifle, waste, fow, flusterstorm, snare... +disfigure my Swarm =(

2-0 (1-1) UW RiP Miracles
my guess is goblins, but a UW guy around had similar looks, spanish
G1 - T2 14 goblins, no miracle happenes
G2 - he hesitates with RiP several turns, it comes down a turn before I kill him, my next attempt is met with FoW from the ToP after I get through soft counters
G3 - I decay a CB, he sticks RiP, time gets called he has last turn attempt to win E-Tutoring for the Helm, I have the Decay and I'll scoop to him if he wants to It's not my day anyway, he tells me to my show hand, I have some rituals, ToA + EtW, waiting for a discard spell, he signs the result slip 2-0 for me
It's pleasure playing with him, we have a nice conversation about the breaking points of the games, I wish him luck and I mean it

0-2 UBG Shardless
G1 1 turn window, 1 topdecked FoW
G2 I open fast hand, probe reveals 2x surgical, Thoughtseize and some stuff, I can't hide my tutor and I'm never back in the game

at this point I'm a caffeine zombie, I eat some 2 random brains making it 3-2 and preserving some dignity by autopilot, I have no mood for lookin for familiar faces, wait for my team and promptly leave (that's what I should have done 5 hours ago)... day0 is no good to me, one guy from our group made 6-1 in the larger trial, other 3 same as me... fact A, gimme some sleep, fact B, the deck fucked up, no cooperation ever, 0 great hands, no luck... I go to sleep early and feel humiliated

SATURDAY - MAIN EVENT

I have handfull of goldfishes in the morning to find out what's wrong with the cards, still comming in weird combinations, the last one is kind of ok T2 protected kill, Ok let's keep it that way and focus... no changes in the list... about 3 of the sleeves are not fit like the other ones, I cruise around the vendor... no KMC? go fuck yourself... if someone is bitching about it's acceptable loss, no black Dragonshield?... well if judge finds mine unfit I'm done or have to question my sexuality and hope cards have some lepper resistance

no changes in the list... +50 hit points +5 Perception

2:1 Jund
G1 no significant plays, he luckily wins, It's my first and last time in the 1st row of tables, it has cool fiery design cloth on, no wonder people steal it for their kitchen table
G2 EtW+ToA
G3 T2 kill I believe as he doesn't get to cast liliana he has in hand

1:2 UGR Nivmagus Kilnfiend Berserk
older bald guy from with scandinavian name
G1 I don't know what to think about him and just try 14 goblins agains his volc->delver, surprisigly he doesn't scoop and plays Nivmagus elemental which does nothing, takes 12 and scoops, so I think I'm against UGR Thresh with Nivmagus instead of some G creatures and Flusterstorm instead of pierce/snare, I saw some brew with that card just released... while sideboarding I recall one of my friends complaining about losing to a Kilnfiend Berserk deck with Elves yesterday two times T3, I SB in decays, just to be sure...
G2 uneventful, I slow him by bolting a Nivmagus but draw poorly, he eventualy reveals a Berserk to flip a Delver but shuffles it away, I sense my future is grim and die next turn to some kamikadze creature
G3 my hand is slower but offers decent control role with 2 removal, I bolt his Delver decay a Nivmagus and have another ready, we draw go until he playes Kiln fiend, I have some rituals, PiF, 2x IT, LED and something at my disposal, but just 3 lands in play and won't tap against Kiln Fiend and save my Decay when he invests more resources for the kill, I hit a Therapy, I think he has Flusterstorm or FoW in hand but go for safer Daze I know from early therapy, hit, seeing lands Fluster, FOW... I let him go, take 1, next turn I draw a Cabal Ritual and then I fuck up... I think I'm capable of killing through both FoW and Flusterstorm if I IT for another CR, I count a bit and only possibility he could kill me on my 14 life next turn is hitting a Berserk, so I take the risk... he draws, thinks a bit, smiles and Berserk-Fluster+pay makes it exactly 14... I'm an idiot... he agrees, and tell me I should have killed it early as he plays Apostle blessing in his deck, I tell him my plan, he shows me another flusterstorm. drawn turn before my death.. that could have been interesting...

2:1 All spells
G1 I keep a nice hand against tempo, he spends some life for his free cards and kills me T1 with Balustrade spy, ehm
G2 he mulls 6 I keeps a decent hand with discard and CoV, I check his hand 3 times, bounce his Tinder Wall and kill around turn 5, he boarded into Belcher as I saw LED in the process
G3 he mull 6 keeps, cast T1 Undercity Informer with Chrome mox, CR and ESG, I BS off petal and kill him T1

2:1 UWR tempo
some german guy, I'm afraid I face UW miracles
G1 my keep can make around some goblins T2, I start with Volc+Ponder, he has volc+Delver, T2 I decide to go for it, If he doesn't fow or Daze my first DR I'm fine with duress, other DR and EtW in hand... he has the daze - I can't continue due to not having access to another 2nd R... he wastes me, has another Daze and Pierce for my second attempt, I think I can still win this, FoW on Bolt for Delver and his own bolt to my face proves me wrong...
G2 I boarded against URG thresh as I saw just the Volc, I starts with Bayou-Xantid Swarm he starts with tundra... Xantid Swarm > his deck
G3 do not remember much he has me under pressure and I decline to cast probe for phyrexian mana as his bolt could kill me on 6 life (obv. he has it+Daze+Fow+Geist), I draw a Bolt for his lonely Delver, he snap Fows(for Geist) and I procceed to kill him... we have small chat about his strategy, not showing the W as he has 3 cannonists SB, he doesn't like Bolt in my build, I do like he considers RiP weak choice against Ant...

2:1 UBr Storm with preordains
G1 my tip is S&T I start with untapped Volc+go ...he plays conservatively I check his hand play Vault eot, kill him...
G2 mirror, olé - I'm more then well prepared... we exchange discard, he LDVs into oblivion for combination I do not understand and plays freshly drawn Ponder, for 1-2 turns I'm ready with DR+Notion Thief waiting for a cantrip as 2 cards for 3 body is not worth it, another few turns later he Duresses my hand of CR+DR+2x Notion Thief I can't resist the aggro plan on 4 lands and cast my hand... his remaining 2 cards are DR and ToA for exactly 14
G3 dunno what happened, probably short game, I won

0:2 Manales Dredge
he talk and laughts a lot and tell surrounding guys about Burn guy not expecting combo in this meta... I expect S&T
G1: he reveals a Chancelor of the Annex... eh? Belcher? I probe him and see I'm against manaless Dredge, me stupid, Therapy gets rid of some useless card, he eventually starts dredging at some point hitting 2 Narcomoebas and 2 therapies, I played 1 of my 2 LEDs (and that is a mistake) to lead him onto IT I do not have, but 2 therapies could ruin my day, he obv goes for IT and then decides to discard PIF with the second.. WTF? he deserves to die, quick look into his GY, I won't get another turn... I flashback PIF, I have plenty of mana (3B 3U floating) 2BS 2 ponder 2 probes in GY, need to find any ritual and IT with it to have enough storm count and mana, I'm sure I will make it... seeing 17 cards I find neither
G2: I let him play first... my 7 has interesting combination of double Therapy, land, petal, Ritual, EtW and CoV... this is not how this deck should be played... but quad Therapy plan amuses me... he again reveals the Chancelor, discards Phantasmagorian... and I die a horrible death... unexpected...

0:0 (2:0) ???
I appear a bit later but in time, opp asks me if I speak german, I understand a bit but no, he calls for a judge... the third one knows german, I get he lost his deck or has something more important to do, B is right and I walk away with the fastest 2:0 of the tournament, nearby players still rolling dice...

2:1 D&T
a jolly guy from Denmark, I wonder if he's on D&T as some other Danes around, he flips a plains before we start shuffling, so I'm about sure
G1 he starts with Vial, I have 14 tokens for him, he doesn't have Mystic to have a try
G2 my 7 - LED, Decay, petal, 4 lands... my 6 - the same 1 decay less... my 5 - LED+lands+something, maybe a therapy... he keeps 5 or 4... I check his hand, he has stoneforge+something... I found out he has all the good stuff preemptively hidden on the top from discard T2 cannonist, T3 revoker, Mom or Thalia next, he fetches UR sword and I fetch my SB
G3 I'm afraid of losing and kill him on T2 I think
he takes it ok, laughs, used to play storm, I apologize him for elimiation

0:2 Junk?
all my friends are out of contention now and wish me luck, I face a UK guy with shiny blue eyes, I saw one of his games today, can't remember... S&T?
G1 I mull 6 into a therapy+duress+rituals+lands... Duress reveals GSZ, 2xCotV, Teeg and lands including Dark Depths (I remember now, his opponent had problem understanding Depths-Stage interaction, had I known)... painful, I take the CotV, CotV 0 gets played, Teeg hits the bin... we go draw go until he topdecks Thespian stage, all I have drawn is just crap, CotV does not matter...
G2 mull 6 with some chance for goblins, probe reveals a Cannonist, 2 Kotr, CotV and something, I brick on whatever I play, CoTV 0 hits the play, Cannonist and Kotr searching for 2nd part of the 2land combo seals the deal T5..

no anger, no, I couldn't do much better this round, my deck stopped working, I had some luck today, everything comes to an end... I enjoyed the day so far and regret my earlier unnecesary loses... I'm around 100th place, It's getting late, we drive for a dinner, losing a lot of games to postboard Elves I go to sleep, determined to do my best on Sunday

SUNDAY next Bom Trial 6 rounds

same list, different day

R1 UWR with TNNemesis 1:2
french, we sit where the tables join, we have the share the playmat or he cast his spells right into exile
G1 14 goblins T2
G2 keep multiple lands, still lose to stifle, waste and 4 softcounters on my cantrips, RiP leaves no chances
G3 - see later part of G2, RiP hits right time before I could kill through counters, 8 goblins is not enough against freshly drawn Lavamancer and Delver and Nemesis eats me
he said he played the deck for the 1st time, yet unlike many others he hit the right spells with his counters and SBed right ...poor start

R2 TES 2:0
I sit against kind of oriental looking stylish guy, probably german, he looks serious and confident so my guess is foil jap Thresh or some foil combo.

G1 - I win the roll, fan out my fast-balanced 7 which lets me pretend I'm Thresh by fetching Volcanic go (to make him play conservatively and have more value off ponder) or go for possible T2 with sea-ponder discouraging him from poor man's choice T1 waste. A guy standing behind him with notepad gets my attention, well dressed and notepad? could that be Lemnear? (I do not know his name nor appearance) or do I sit against Lemnear? the guy with notepad looks like him most of all people so far so my opp could be even elves or playing TES.
So I start with Sea-Ponder, opp leads with foil Gemstone mine (but old design, so it's not Lemnears deck).. ha! my heart starts pumping, but... I cantrip, floating IT on top, drawing CT and hit a DR with blind Therapy, he has handfull of tutors and 2 Therapies I think, opp Therapies me for IT which hits my first in hand and lets me play or ponders then petal-go, Opp has mana open so maybe bluffs silence, I go for it, If he silences me with right timing (when I play PIF or better after 1st flashbacked ritual) I likely lose in fast manner... he has a silence but unconsidered timing - with IT on the stack (spells played indicate what I'm gonna do but maybe he thinks too ahead, me next leveling him with Ad Nauseam, but I do not have the luxury of doing so in my 76)... that leaves me with 2 lands in play, PIF (dropped by LED), some ritual and tutors in GY and a card to find - finding LED or CR lets me kill him next turn with any mana source or a tutor is topdecked... what to choose... LED is safe from Therapy or I can bluff with it, but I'm short on storm if I draw just a land it's not enough, I take another gamble (in retrospect the choice is so wrong) and find CR... he therapies for DR (?) and loses to topdecked Tutor a turn or 2 later...

SB: -2 basics, -1 bolt
+extirpate (If he is a good boy he boards out EtW, so possible discard on BW could make the game mine on low mana investment)
+pyroblast (catching T2 BS or a topdecked Ponder if game goes long sounds good)
+notion thief (I hesitate a bit, I have it untested with TES it's slow (even more on draw) and not so good in theory, on the other hand a Telemin performance needs me to have a creature ... I won't crap my base with G land so decide to go with Thief as better lategame choice, I expect to likely lose on draw anyway)
-I remind myself of Telemin performace, Notion thief is not exactly what I want my opponent to have but the oath fx should provide me with enough fuel +maybe 1of 2 PIF and cantrips may not matter, I doubt he'd play it
-short thought on Chain instead of 2nd Bolt I but dismiss the idea as it is really inprobable I could bounce a mox and Bolt could be more of use if he gets low on life and catching him off guard is same inprobable but would be hilarious same with thief, so I decide to have some fun
EtW stays as I do not have AdN and T1/2 EtW backed up with discard or 2 may get there, on draw this could be fast and I have to have as mayn options as possible

G2 - I fan out a nolander with T1 kill if I draw any land LED or petal... in retrospect it's obv. mulligan, the hand has 2 LED... so a therapy, nonland draw, or silence gets me... I struggle a bit but decide to win G3 anyway... he probes, I whiff on land, play out my 2 LED and he goes for T2 DRiturns UBR floating (IT and BW removed), ponders (shuffles I think) while I wonder what kill% is in TES opening post in this situation ..., checks my hand of Grim Tutor and IT and 5 lands somehow, maybe Probe, playes out 3 LP and passes the turn... lovely... so surviving 2 turns a ritual is likely a win, I'm also fine with a cantrip... I draw a Therapy... thinking... IT, AN in hand or topdecked kills me... or I can protect my kill (silence) I'm fine with longer game, so IT it is, I hit, I draw a ritual or cantrip into it and a Notion thief later, situation is I'm 1 mana or 1 storm shy of killing him so I pray for him running into DR-> Thief, he topdecks ponder and we have a good laugh, he's not happy after I draw into another ritual and kill him, Thief cabal checking for silence (questionable play) to have enough storm...

so... I'm still unbeaten by TES with ANT, this time Opp lost to himself and variance... and Me of course ;) turns out the person with notepad is Lemnear so I finally find face for the name, we have a small chat and finally meet mr. Kotter, both seem to be great guys!

meanwhile I watch some Day2 games and ask myself how comes Timo Schunneman has x-0 again he sit just few meters from me on 6-2 yesterday, everytime I watch he faces same situations as I do decklist with same or better options.. yet I'm playing the trial... there are about 3 other stormers, one of which has W splash on some Silences (!!??) haven't seen much of the other 2

R3 UBG Shardless 2:0
G1 I duress his Force and Tutor chain him T4
G2 he get to win with really retarded sequence... - he leads off with DRS I probe into 12 or 14 goblins he draws just creatures so we get to the state he is tapped out, has 2x DRS, Goyf, Agent and Revoker in GY against 8 goblins on 6 life, I BS EoT with Bolt in hand and hit Probe + Extirpate =D ... so probe, attack, extirpate revoker bolt his face =D
he takes his time signing the result slip, starring into oblivion while I watch a Spanish inqusition guy next to me getting game loss for tardiness and killing his Nic Fit Opp on T1, T2

R4 12 draw4 Spanish Inquisition (expected) 2:0
G1 I lose the die roll and prepare to die, he mulls 6, ESG->DRS go ... I PiF loop him T1
G2 he thinks a bit and keeps, I have a hand that could ToA for 18 T1 or find a Notion Thief, I think the second could be better and funny... he goes off but Cruel Bargain doesn't let him continue the spell chain and competing for prices as Notion Thiel is now unnecessary, I just show him my hand
he's a nice guy, we have a chat about SI, he shows me his build with Meditates and crappy sideboard feat. GY ultra hate - seriously - about 10 cards... turns out he had no luck with Nic Fit yesterday and his teammate with Thespian stage eliminated me R9

R5 UBRg 2:0
a kid from my car, I play him every week, he has his take on german BURG registered and is really unhappy to play as another guy from our car got him to X-1 with Grixis tempo
G1: I cantrip, he starts with Shaman, I check his hand for Fow two times and Tutor chain him
G2: he leads with DRS, doesn't FoW a Swarm T1 and gets to race 14 goblins

R6 UBG Shardless 2:1
I have plenty of time to memorize which decks other guys on 4-1 play, and wish for a mirror, I get paired up against foil jap guy in green football jersey with korean foil Notion thief in SB
G1 I keep 0lander with probe and petal, any mana source drawn kills him, I whiff and see wasteland and no FOW or discard, he starts with DRS, I ponder off petal, shuffle, no manasource drawn for 2 next turns, he does some stuff while I BS off Sea, no luck, gets wasted and a Badlands for the last turn before I die is not enough as I still need the 2nd mana to go off likely facing a FoW, so I just check he plays it with Duress, he does... frustrating
G2 judges sit next to us to rest their feet... the game gets to the point I BS lategame and feel the kill in my 9 cards but could not count the PIF loop with Grim and IT, judges inform me I have to make a decision, I get really nervous for the first time at the weekend as my loop double check gets odd... I go for it and recount through the process, get LED with flashbacked IT and start flashing back probes - any manasource is kill, I fuck up and do so twice - getting on 3 life with just Grim as a tutor in GY I start playing all the spells in my yard, he thinks I showboat to get time and scoops in fast manner..
G3 the game gets long again, he gets to aggro plan, I have 1 turn to find a ritual, I do so and win a Sea+bye for next BOM... only 6-0 is Lejay

other 2 guys from my car lost the last round on 4-1 and want to depart asap as some have 12 hour shift on monday and 9 hour drive is ahead of us... I'm in a hurry as 2 judges head me different ways to collect prices and then the ID is necessary for which I have to go back to the car... so I apologize to everyone I haven't said good bye to...

+
dice rolls sat+sun xx-4
Xantid Swarm vs lightning bolt X-0
lightning bolt vs preordain x-0
sunday
great people vs idiots met x-0 (surprisingly all opps were nice regardless of the games, meeting guy I know just online)

-
friday mist on german highways
exhaustion vs Friday x-0
losing G1s
losing to myself vs. Berserk
no fun final round of day 1 (come on, it's basically a goldfish =/)
japanese IT and LED in binders - 0 (so I have to buy them from the Market =(

BrettF

11-08-2013, 08:35 PM

I ended up writing about the philosophy behind my list: Link. (http://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2013/11/08/bazaar-of-moxen-paris-storm-primer/)

Well done! Nice reminder that Empty, As Naus, and PiF aren't the only plays you can sideboard in and out. you can also load up on tendrils! I'll be trying some of your ideas.

Lemnear

11-09-2013, 04:05 AM

Was nice to met you ^^

My Protegé Kai asked to watch his match to make comments about it, so I took the usual notes and pointed out how he gave away the games (especially after DimRet) ... needs a but more practice I guess ^^. I'm very sorry if I distracted you -.-

He refused to use the Telemin because we both didn't face any combo at the trials where I was eliminated by Painter (1-2) and Miracles (1-2) so he threw a new SB together with lots of creature-hate. We both were X-2 in the end of Friday but opted to do better Saturday. He however started 0-2 and I 2-0. Fight through D&T-Style deck and UWR Delver (both 2-0) then drawed against Esperblade and lost against Painter (1-2, both dices lost). The Elimination came through another Esperblade which won the dice as well as dismembering me g1 & g3 with a flurry of discard + Snapcaster + Clique ... not much I could do.

Glad, you were able to collect the Bye in the BoM 9 Trial. Till next time

Bed Decks Palyer

11-09-2013, 05:16 AM

Hello Slosh! Congrats on USea, thanks for the report.

afb0032

11-11-2013, 11:56 AM

I am retyping this whole thing since I tried to preview the post and it got deleted.
Yesterday at SCG Dallas was my first time piloting any sort of storm deck in a tournament, in addition to this being my first big tournament. I figured I would go ahead and write a report since it would be nice to have a record of both.

I registered this list:
(Lands)
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 Gemstone Mine
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Island
1 Swamp
(Spells)
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grim Tutor
2 Preordain
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Lotus Petal
(Sideboard)
2 Carpet of Flowers
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Pyroclasm
1 Massacre
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tropical Island
1 Pithing Needle

Round 1: Mike (Painter with white)
I thought I recognized him and it turns out he plays at the local store where I go for legacy as well, but I had no idea what he was playing and vice versa.

-Game 1: He is on the play and opens with ancient tomb, lotus petal into magus of the moon. My opening hand just got a lot worse, but I did have a basic island. I cantrip for a few turns, he casts koth of the hammer, while chipping away with magus, and I finally am able cast ad nauseam at 10 life from lotus petal, dark ritual, dark ritual. I go to 3 life and gitaxian probe to 1 and hit nothing to get me there.

SB: +2 chain of vapor, +1 empty the warrens, +1 pyroclasm; -2 preordain, -1 cabal therapy, -1 gitaxian probe

-Game 2: We both durdle a bit the first few turns and then turn 3 I am able to go off with past in flames.

-Game 3: He opens with Leyline of sanctity. He is on the play and turn 3 casts ethersworn canonist. I begin digging for chain of vapor. I then attempted to cast a duress completely forgetting about leyline of sanctity in play. He points out my mistake politely, I apologize and we discuss about if it goes back to my hand and if the mana is still in the pool, so we decide it is best to call a judge. Judge rules it goes back to my hand, I do have the black floating, and I have a game warning. I thank him for clearing it up and we proceed back to the game. His next turn he plays rest in peace. I cast empty the warrens from artifacts and make 8 goblins, which are then met next rurn with a rolling earthquake for x=1. I eventually have to go for it and cast ad nauseam in his end step at 14 life and stop at 3 with double chain of vapor and enough to go off, but he casts lightining helix and end it.

Record (0-1)

Round 2: Jake (Merfolk)
I knew what he was on when I saw a master of the pearl trident when he was shuffling.

-Game 1: He quickly gets aether vial and has enough lords and counters to stall me and win on turn 5.

SB: -2 preordain, -1 cabal therapy, +2 carpet of flowers, +1 tropical island

-Game 2: I duress his opening hand revealing standstill, swan song, silvergill adept, mutavault, wasteland, and master of the pearl trident, and I take the standstill. I then bait out the swan song with an extra ritual and get carpet of flowers into play. I attempt to find another business spell and finally do. I am forced to go off without discard or probe because I will lose next turn. I play 4 LEDs and then infernal tutor which gets met with a force of will.

Record (0-2)

Round 3: Mike (Infect)

-Game 1: I turn 1 duress him and quickly figure out what the deck is, but have not playtested against it. I take the only countermagic in spell pierce and pass. On my second turn I am able to go off, and for the first time during the day, misplay and fizzle. I had cast past in flames for extra rituals in the graveyard with a ponder and infernal tutor still in hand. I decide to gitaxian probe since I had not played a land and wanted another that or another ritual. Instead I get a second infernal tutor and only 1 cabal therapy in the graveyard, and immediately realize my mistake in play order. He proceeds to win his next turn.

SB: -2 preordain; +2 chain of vapor

-Game 2: I cantrip the first few turns and have enough business to go off turn 3, but no discard, and gitaxian probe reveals a mindbreak trap. I dig to find a discard spell, I don’t find one, and he gets there with 4 glistener elves the following turn.

Record (0-3)

Round 4: Kristin (Sneak and Show)
I sat next to Kristin the previous round and knew what she was playing, although she didn’t seem to know what I was.

-Game 1: She is land locked after playing a mountain and sensei’s top, but can’t find another land. I gitaxian probe turn 3 revealing no counters and go off with Past in Flames.

SB: -2 preordain, -1 cabal therapy, -2 gitaxian probe; +3 xantid swarm, +2 chain of vapor

-Game 2: She turn 2 casts emrakul off of show and tell and annihilates any of my chances.

-Game 3: We start and I open with a xantid swarm in hand which is awesome…..until I realize I forgot to side in the tropical island to fetch. On her third turn she cats show and tell, she puts in emrakul, I put in xantid. I realize I can win next turn….then I draw a second xantid swarm. I attack to prevent counters, put the other xantid into play off of a lotus petal I thankfully had, and then can empty my hand and go off with past in flames.

-Duly noted to remember to put tropical island into play from that point onward.

Record: (1-3)

Round 5: Gabe (Goblin Charbelcher)
Gabe is about 8 years old so I have no idea what to anticipate. I commend him for coming out and playing in a big event , he says thank you, and asks about when I started playing magic, so we chat until the first game starts.

-Game 1: I cantrip my first turn and then he goes off and wins with charbelcher. I now know what I’m playing against.

-Game 2: I open turn 1 with pithing needle naming charbelcher. He is irritated, but we laugh about how he hates when that happens. Eventually he casts chrome mox imprinting charbelcher. I figured he was just doing that to up the storm count for some reason and completely forget that you can’t imprint an artifact on the mox. A judge randomly walks by and asks when it happened and tells us to pause to see how far back to reverse the game state since it was not legal. Gabe starts apologizing to me and telling me he is sorry. I tell him it is no big deal, it happens, and don’t worry about it. We chat until the judge comes back and then resume the game. My next turn I win with a natural tendrils.
During the last game I saw an empty the warrens from shuffling and adjust with -1 gitaxian probe, +1 pyroclasm.

-Game 3: He plays first and opens with empty for 10 goblins. I take 2 turns digging with ponders to find pyroclasm, I don’t and lose.

Record (1-4)

Round 6: BT (Sneak and Show)
BT and I met through mutual friends before the tournament began and we talked a lot between rounds. I knew what he was playing, but I don’ t think he knew exactly what my list was.

-Game 1: I play a duress and cantrip my first few turns. He turn 3 show and tells in griselbrand and that was that.
SB: Same as previous Sneak match except -1 gitaxian probe, +1 Tropical Island.

-Game 2: He mulligans to five, and I have multiple discard spells in hand. He recovers as I can’t find any business spells. He then gets a jace in play. I am close to being able to go off until he plays a blood moon and I have 2x underground sea and a tropical island in play. He brainstorms with jace a few turns as I hunt for anything to cast, then begins to fate seal me. Eventually monsters come down and win the game for him.

Record (1-5)
At this point I am playing for pride and tournament experience.

Round 7: Nick (High Tide)

-Game 1: I decimate his opening hand with multiple discard spells. He draws his card for his first turn then concedes.
SB: Same as previous round with sneak and show

-Game 2: He mulligans to 6, and then I tear apart his hand with discard the first 2 turns. I go off on turn 3 with ad nauseam at 20 life.
I asked afterwards why he conceded the first game and he said he knew what I was playing, two high tides were already discarded, and he wasn’t playing with candles.

Record (2-5)

Round 8: Joe (G/W elves home brew)

-Game 1: I discard anything of relevance in his hand and go off on turn 3 with past in flames.
SB: I have no idea what to expect so I go with -2 preordain; +1 pyroclasm, +1 Massacre

-Game 2: He opens with Leyline of Sanctity. I concede since I have no bounce and quickly side -2 gitaxian probe, +2 chain of vapor

-Game 3: He mulligans to 3 looking for leyline. I cantrip my first few turns and on my third turn he has priest of titania, savannah, and plains in play. I decide to cast massacre since I don’t want leyline being cast. It turns out the next turn he had it in hand and a land to be able to play it if I had not killed the priest. The next turn I go off through ad nauseam.

Record (3-5)

There was a 9th round, but I decided to go home and get a good dinner and get plenty of sleep for work today. The deck was an absolute blast to play and I will be sticking with it for a long time. I may not have had a great record, but I was pleased with how I played my matches (except for the fizzle in the infect game). I equate it to golf, in that the deck is frustrating and rewarding at the same time. I liked the main deck I was running, but may try out the burning wish version at some point down the line and the extra fetches +main deck green duals many people were running during the latest bazaar of moxen. The only thing I would change in the sideboard for this version is -1 abrupt decay, -1 xantid swarm. Abrupt decay wasn’t too relevant all day and multiple xantids drawn always felt bad. I may add +1 slaughter pact and +1 karakas for those slots.

Props:
-All of my opponents. Everyone was very friendly and a pleasure to play against.
-The Starcitygames judges. I made some dumb mistakes, but the judges were always professional and explained the situations to me to make sure I understood while being courteous about it.
-Everyone in the ANT thread on the site for giving me different opinions and advice on how to build and pilot the deck.

GoblinZ

11-11-2013, 04:21 PM

play decay against painter, play xantid swarm agaisnt merfolk.And massacre is nearly useless against elves, since it is too slow and they have teeg.

Jeff

11-11-2013, 04:43 PM

I'm prepping my final decklist for the GP Saturday and I'm still on the fence about a few things, interested in some additional opinions. Here's my decklist for reference.

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Preordain

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress

4 Infernal Tutor
1 Grim Tutor
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Island
1 Swamp

Sideboard

3 Xantid Swarm
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Dread of Night
2 Massacre
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Sensei's Divining Top

Questions

1) What are people's thoughts on the correct maindeck discard suite? I'm playing 6 discard spells main, preferring the 3rd Preordain to the 7th discard, which may be wrong, but I've always played 4 Cabal Therapy and only 2 Duress, instead of the other way around. I like being able to hit Thalias and multiple copies of Force of Will, and I feel like I'm good enough at reading my opponents that I hit fairly often with Therapy. Am I overstating the number of times Therapy is good? Should I be playing more Duress?
2) Just how necessary is Carpet of Flowers in the board? At this point the only thing I'm bringing it in against is Delver. It's sometimes hard to find space for it against UWR because I have to bring in hate for Meddling Mage and keep in all of the discard. Against RUG it's an easy swap, and against BUG it's gets abrupt decayed as often as it sticks around and is awesome. I haven't tested the RUG matchup much without it, though, and it seems fairly important. I'd love to find room in the board for a 2nd top and a 7th discard spell though, so if I can live without carpet, it seems nice.
3) How is the Death and Taxes matchup going for people now that 4 Phyrexian Revoker is the norm? I did a lot of testing this weekend, and both Massacre and Dread of Night had games where they were awesome and irrelevant. I tested with 4 Dread of Night and lost a game with 2 Dreads out to 3 Phyrexian Revokers beating down, blanking all of my artifact mana. I tested with 2 Massacre 2 Dread and lost games where I had Massacre but they kept a vial on 2 and just vialed Canonist or Thalia in after I Massacred. At this point I'm feeling good about the 2 Massacre 2 Dread plan, which lets me lock out all thalias but still gives me good answers to canonist and revoker in the deck. I'm boarding -2 Duress -2 Cabal Therapy -1 Probe for +2 Massacre +2 Dread +1 Chain of Vapor and that seems to be OK.
4) Followup to question 3: Is boarding extra Ad Nauseams instead of Massacre a viable strategy against D&T? Trying to go off before they can put down the lock pieces instead of trying to deal with them all seems like a perfectly good way to win. I'd still keep the Chain and 2 Dread of Nights, but otherwise I'd have a faster way to win that's also a valid sideboard card against Sneak and Show and TES.

I definitely appreciate any thoughts. I'm stoked for this tournament. I have 2 byes ready to go and I'm ready to count to 10 all day.

GoblinZ

11-11-2013, 05:02 PM

JamieW89

11-11-2013, 05:03 PM

I think I'd really want 7 discard spells, now that basicly every deck plays either Thalia, Force or combos you out faster. I think 4 Therapy is fine though. If you expect a large part of the meta to play Bx midrange then I can understand the 3rd Preordain over the 7th discard spell.

Carpet isn't a fixed slot for me as it doesn't increase the MU's by a great amount, however it's one of the best slots for tempo decks (also solid vs Merfolk) which I would expect to face multiple times in any large tournament.

With my BoM list (which was quite low on the Thalia hate) I managed about 55%ish versus DnT in testing, although I tested against lists with 0 empty hate other than Batterskull. In the event itself I beat a scrub (although even those should know how to play Thalia on t2) and Thomas Enevoldsen while losing to Shahar. As you point out DoN is weak to Vial, Canonist and Revoker. Hurkyl's Recall solves all of these while also complementing the Decays against Chalice decks. I really like 1-2 of these, with Painter also being big. The UBr list (3 DoN, 1 Pyroclasm, 2 CoV to board in with 3 BW for Massacre) I had built was over 70% per match in testing for what it's worth.

I'm not a fan of extra Ad Nauseams in this deck because the first is already weak, the second is actually worse (even if it's a good card to draw instead of tutor for).

Concerning the swarms: do you like the 3rd enough? I found 2 to be plenty.

Hope to see some ANT lists in the top-8 this weekend.

Jeff

11-11-2013, 05:57 PM

I've been back and forth with the 7th discard spell for a while now. I was playing 6 main when I won my GPT, and I beat Death and Taxes twice in the swiss in that tournament, but even then I had the 7th in the board, and right now trying to fit more D&T hate in the board I've lost the space for the 7th discard, so I think I probably need to be playing with it main.

I find Xantid Swarm to be completely essential to beating Leyline out of Show and Tell, and I seem to see Leyline an inordinate amount of the time out of those decks, so I like having 3. Maybe I'm relying on it like a crutch, but I absolutely hate losing to leyline and it's the card that stops that.

Jeff

11-11-2013, 06:08 PM

I hadn't really given Hurkyl's Recall any thought, but I do like it against D&T quite a bit now that I think about it. I'm just not sure where I'd fit it in. What other matchups do I really want it? I guess against Trinisphere/Chalice decks it's a pretty good answer, but I don't want to trim Abrupt Decays because Counterbalance appears to be making a comeback.

MTG Junkie

11-11-2013, 08:56 PM

1 Flex,normally the 3rd Wish
2 Burning Wish
1 Tendrils
1 PIF
4 Probe
4 Ponder
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Therapy
3 Duress

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
1 Ad Nauseam

4 Lotus Petal
4 LED

1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
2 Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp
8 Fetch
1 Flex,normally the 9th fetch.

lately Iv been playing the 2nd Swamp (double Island sucks in the combo turn) and a Top in the flex spots. With a Board of,

2 Dark Confidant
4 Dread Of Night
3 Swarm
1 Bayou
1 Grim Tutor
1 Empty
1 Tendrils
1 IGG
1 Sweeper

I think all the other 1 of s are terrible so i stopped playing them.
I stopped playing bounce as well. Sometimes your sculpting and have to waste it to keep sculpting.

Yet with all these changes i cant bring myself to play a non Wish version,why? lol

Switched up my mana base just try it out

8 Fetch
1 Trop
1 Bayou
1 Volc
1 Badlands
1 Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp

Replaced the Bayou and the Pyroclasm from the board with 2 Carpet Of Flowers. Looks greedy, I know. I haven't noticed only having 1 Sea that much though.

I havent really liked Pyroclasm/any sweeper lately. I have been having to wish for Pyroclasm and play it in the same turn alot. If you wish for it and pass they just Wasteland you/slash play around it. Wishing for the sweeper just feels like a weak play.

Sloshthedark

11-12-2013, 03:10 AM

I'm prepping my final decklist for the GP Saturday and I'm still on the fence about a few things, interested in some additional opinions. Here's my decklist for reference.

Questions

1) What are people's thoughts on the correct maindeck discard suite? I'm playing 6 discard spells main, preferring the 3rd Preordain to the 7th discard, which may be wrong, but I've always played 4 Cabal Therapy and only 2 Duress, instead of the other way around. I like being able to hit Thalias and multiple copies of Force of Will, and I feel like I'm good enough at reading my opponents that I hit fairly often with Therapy. Am I overstating the number of times Therapy is good? Should I be playing more Duress?
2) Just how necessary is Carpet of Flowers in the board? At this point the only thing I'm bringing it in against is Delver. It's sometimes hard to find space for it against UWR because I have to bring in hate for Meddling Mage and keep in all of the discard. Against RUG it's an easy swap, and against BUG it's gets abrupt decayed as often as it sticks around and is awesome. I haven't tested the RUG matchup much without it, though, and it seems fairly important. I'd love to find room in the board for a 2nd top and a 7th discard spell though, so if I can live without carpet, it seems nice.
3) How is the Death and Taxes matchup going for people now that 4 Phyrexian Revoker is the norm? I did a lot of testing this weekend, and both Massacre and Dread of Night had games where they were awesome and irrelevant. I tested with 4 Dread of Night and lost a game with 2 Dreads out to 3 Phyrexian Revokers beating down, blanking all of my artifact mana. I tested with 2 Massacre 2 Dread and lost games where I had Massacre but they kept a vial on 2 and just vialed Canonist or Thalia in after I Massacred. At this point I'm feeling good about the 2 Massacre 2 Dread plan, which lets me lock out all thalias but still gives me good answers to canonist and revoker in the deck. I'm boarding -2 Duress -2 Cabal Therapy -1 Probe for +2 Massacre +2 Dread +1 Chain of Vapor and that seems to be OK.
4) Followup to question 3: Is boarding extra Ad Nauseams instead of Massacre a viable strategy against D&T? Trying to go off before they can put down the lock pieces instead of trying to deal with them all seems like a perfectly good way to win. I'd still keep the Chain and 2 Dread of Nights, but otherwise I'd have a faster way to win that's also a valid sideboard card against Sneak and Show and TES.

I definitely appreciate any thoughts. I'm stoked for this tournament. I have 2 byes ready to go and I'm ready to count to 10 all day.

1, 4+3 > 15th cantrip
2, it is not, A, XS is much better G spell against Tempo, B, it's countered by everything, needs G and skillful player plays around it C
3, kill through revoker... Massacre seems better... if they have so much luxury in the game like vialing in a Cannonist in resp. you A play bad, B, have to accept defeat... I can't remember when I lost a match to D&T, the recent lists doesn't seem too hateful, they usually don't have much and keep any hatebear hand, so speed is your best option - see 4
4, 1st step to succeed - have EtW main, Ad Nauseam SB, to answer your question.. no and obv. Ad Nauseam is not a viable strategy w Massacre

afb0032

11-12-2013, 06:15 PM

play decay against painter, play xantid swarm agaisnt merfolk.And massacre is nearly useless against elves, since it is too slow and they have teeg.

Thanks for the advice GoblinZ. Normally I would agree with you on the massacre, but this wasn't a normal combo elves build. I didn't even recognize half of the cards he was running and I rcently had played combo elves so I knew the general build/sideboard and hate.

Jeff

11-12-2013, 06:25 PM

1, 4+3 > 15th cantrip
2, it is not, A, XS is much better G spell against Tempo, B, it's countered by everything, needs G and skillful player plays around it C
3, kill through revoker... Massacre seems better... if they have so much luxury in the game like vialing in a Cannonist in resp. you A play bad, B, have to accept defeat... I can't remember when I lost a match to D&T, the recent lists doesn't seem too hateful, they usually don't have much and keep any hatebear hand, so speed is your best option - see 4
4, 1st step to succeed - have EtW main, Ad Nauseam SB, to answer your question.. no and obv. Ad Nauseam is not a viable strategy w Massacre

I'm with you on the first 3, but I don't buy #4 at all. I have tried Empty main and Ad Nauseam board. It's horrible. I made 16 goblins turn 1 against affinity and got raced. I shouldn't lose in a race with affinity. I'll stick with cards that actually let me win on the first turn.

Massacre is a beating off of Ad Nauseam, no question, but an all seriousness I've found that in most situations if I hit the Massacre I can cast it, pass the turn, and then kill them on the following turn with everything else I drew. It's been incredibly rare that Massacre has killed me in testing.

Jonathan Alexander

11-12-2013, 11:47 PM

1, 4+3 > 15th cantrip
I agree. I think pretty much everything is better than the 15th cantrip though. If you're even remotely good with Therapy, it should always get the nod over Duress. But I think a point can be made for up to two Thoughtseize or even Inquisition of Kozilek instead of some Duress. I've been liking a singleton Thoughtseize against hatebear decks.

2, it is not, A, XS is much better G spell against Tempo, B, it's countered by everything, needs G and skillful player plays around it C

I can't say I agree here. I've found Xantid Swarm quite terrible against blue decks, especially if you already have seven discard spells. There's only so much room for disruption. You can't go running around bringing in disruption pieces 8-10, because you don't have enough to board out. If you keep on boarding out business for disruption, at some point your deck doesn't do anything anymore. Also, discard is much better than Swarm. Most of the time, if Swarm was going resolve, discard would as well, only they can't have, say, Lightning Bolt, Also, they're already dead then.
This is accounts for controlling blue decks, Swarm is still necessary against Show and Tell decks.

Carpet is a completely different card. Usually, I straight up swap Carpets for other mana sources, usually Cabal Ritual to hedge against graveyard hard and, in my list, Chrome Mox. Again, as with disruption, you only want a certain amount of rituals in your deck. Replacing Cabal Ritual is especially important against UWR Delver and Miracles, as they sometims have Rest in Peace, which makes your Cabal Rituals embarassing. Also, if tempo players want to limit themselves to two or less lands on board, they won't be able to counter enough of your spells - you Therapy them for Force of Will and they're dead. Also, you can bait them into wasting Stifle on Carpet in your first main phase and then use it again in the second. Yes, that works.

3, kill through revoker... Massacre seems better... if they have so much luxury in the game like vialing in a Cannonist in resp. you A play bad, B, have to accept defeat... I can't remember when I lost a match to D&T, the recent lists doesn't seem too hateful, they usually don't have much and keep any hatebear hand, so speed is your best option - see 4
4, 1st step to succeed - have EtW main, Ad Nauseam SB, to answer your question.. no and obv. Ad Nauseam is not a viable strategy w Massacre

I agree with a lot of what's said here, up until the bolded part. But generally, Dread of Night plus Chain of Vapor is the best you can do, as Dread still immediately kills their Thalias and a second Dread is almost impossibe to beat for them. When I talked to Enevoldsen about Timo's list from GP Ghent, he said that upon looking at the sideboard his first thought was that there was no way he could win, regardless of Timo actually comboing. Also, assembling multiple Dreads is even easier with the cantrip-heavy builds.

Now, onto the bolded part. I think this is kind of contradicting. You say that speed is important but want to play Empty the Warrens over Ad Nauseam. I very much prefer having the second Ad Nauseam, but I'm not sure it is viable without a Chrome Mox or an additional Ritual (Rain of Filth) in your deck. With the cantrip-list, I don't think there is enough space to make that an effective boarding strategy. You could possibly could cut a cantrip for Rain of Filth (I really don't see how it's not played in that build, making BBBB+ off just one black mana is insane) and then replace the sideboarded Sensei's Divining Top with Ad Nauseam.

Also, I just noticed you are running Grim Tutor. You would definitely want to replace that if you're really looking to Ad Nauseam people. Maybe cutting that for Rain is better than cutting a cantrip. If you want to play Preordains, I suggest these changes:

-1 Preordain
-1 Grim Tutor
+1 Rain of Filth
+1 Duress/Thoughtseize (likely the former, as having Thoughtseize won't be relevant against DNT after boarding)

-2 Massacre
-1 Sensei's Divining Top
+2 Dread of Night
+1 Ad Nauseam

The plan against Death and Taxes would then be to cut all the discard for Chains, Dreads and Ad Nauseam.

JamieW89

11-13-2013, 09:25 AM

I think one or two Thoughtseize is a fine idea, I've also considered it. I would still never play Inquisition main though
.
I really don't like Rain of Filth in ANT since it doesn't combine well with Past in Flames, which is our main engine. It only starts being good in the middle game anyways, while Ad Nauseam is better in the early game.

Concerning the Empty/AdN: I suggest playing Emtpy in a meta filled with tempo and AdN in a meta filled with decks where you need speed. AdN is also somewhat better versus discard, but both EtW and PIF will usually be enough there g1 (and if you empty them g1 they'll have useless hate g2).

With a sb of 4 DoN, 2 Chain and possibly some Decays I don't think you want 2 Ad Nauseams versus DnT. You can play a control role with that much hate and just tutor chain them out.

caw_86

11-13-2013, 02:04 PM

GP DC list I'm planning on using, any opinions or thoughts. I went 6-3 last weeks at the Dallas scg, lost to rug delver, belcher, and merfolk

4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual
4 lions eye diamond
4 lotus petal
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 Gitaxian probe
2 preordain
1 burning wish
4 infernal tutor
4 duress
3 cabal therapy
1 ad nauseam
1 past in flames
1 tendrils of agony

4 polluted delta
4 scalding tarn
2 underground sea
1 volcanic island
1 badlands
1 tropical island
1 swamp
1 island

Sb
2 dread of night
2 chain of vapor
2 xantid swarm
3 abrupt decay
1 pyroclasm
1 infest
1 reverent silence
1 past in flames
1 tendrils of agony
1 karakas

nodahero

11-13-2013, 04:10 PM

Your list seems very stock Caw. What is your expected meta game? I think providing that would allow us to comment and critique to benefit you the most.

Sloshthedark

11-14-2013, 04:34 AM

1, I'm in for 1 Thoughtseize, worked fine for me

2, Tempo is the match-up when XS has been best so far, every Thresh/BURG guy in my LGS knows I'm playing it and still works great... It's therapy flashback at worst... I board it in instead of TS, Duress and/or a cantrip/LDV/Grim that's too situational to specify... don't like it vs. Miracles though... Carpet gets SPierced too often 1st land Trop is poor opening and decent player stays on his 1 max. 2 lands and fetches until you go off or he kills you and that last turn you topdeck 2nd Carpet obv.. that's my experience

3, the downside of 4 DoN is 1 is not enough often so you need 2 // keep drawing multiples when you don't need them and how good is it vs. Maverick or Bant? obv. if your only enemy is D&T 4DoN is insane, but occupies too many slots imo

4, it's not a contradiction, against random deck EtW 12+ is same good&better with 4xCT and more probable, T1 kill rate with AN is low with 4 LP, AN pass

RoF - I like the card, I have it in korean, I'd love to play it but it's underperforming for me with PiF, stays in DD

Machahiko

11-14-2013, 12:17 PM

davelin

11-14-2013, 12:28 PM

Lemnear

11-14-2013, 12:42 PM

What are carpet of flowers for if not for RUG and other delver decks with plenty of soft counters? By the way, saw few people using Carpet of Flowers' ability immediately after it's played. Is this possible? I also feel it's a bit weird to take in Xantid Swarms when playing against a deck that will most likely leave in bolts and other burn to take care of your swarms. Or do you just hope they don't have one? ;)

It's not like you can't Duress the Bolt or Probe them before you sneak in the Bugs dodging all Snares, pierces, Flusterstorm and shit ... If they trade FoW for it, it's still fine.

I've even seen peeps wasting their sweeper for a Swarm, just to die to the following goblins

Sloshthedark

11-14-2013, 05:43 PM

Well... 5 hours earlier...LGS, 22P, 4R:

List = BoM = http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?11184-DTB-ANT-(Ad-Nauseam-Tendrils)&p=764462&viewfull=1#post764462, no need for changes

R1 - UWR Tempo w budget manabase 2-0

switched recently onto UWR, inexperienced, his deck lacks some Tundras, I win the roll

G1 - he mulls 6, I bolt his T1 Delver and Ponder, slowroll my BS to play around SP, discard something and when he taps out for Geist in desperation I convert the BS into really unfair one with eot LDV
+lands+Decays+Pyro+CoV+Extirpate (I'm wondering what else is budget in his deck), -usual stuff, I expect some MM, Canonist and RiP

G2 - he starts Volc-delver go, when it flips I CoV it in the upkeep, he holds up mana to represent soft counters? dunno why - for my 3rd turn, I BS and set up a scenario of GP, IT, CR, 2xLED, 1xLP at 2 mana open with EtW+bolt on the top of the library, he has Daze+Fow+2delvers feat. crap, doesn't counter the ritual and ends up with 12 dudes on the table, finetnxbye

R2 - MUD 2-0

I know what he's on and lose the die roll

G1 - on draw, uncomfortable, I open nice 7 of lands, IT, GP, CT, DR+CR, varied CC are ok vs. CotV 1... he starts with CotV 0... I don't care much and BS into 14 Goblins T3, he has just 1mana lands and 2x Boots, I check for Forgemaster, it's the only card that kills me, he doesn't have/draw any... +lands+decay -duress-ponder-probe-sea-swamp

G2 - he starts with land go, I discard a CotV, he has 2 revokers and Wastelands in hand, my deck supplies me with enough lands so I set up a 2x therapy+12 Goblins turn with BS on top of my library... he casts a Ratchet Bomb so I fetch away the EtW and kill him with PiF a turn later

R3 - UGR Thresh 2-0

I'm paired down to one of my BoM teammates, I win the roll

G1 - I bolt his T1 delver, so he has just Mongoose for pressure+burn in hand, I'm not happy - my hand calls for EtW and he could race me... few turns, BS and discard later I have 14 gobs to match the goose, goyfcheck and we go on G2

G2 - I have a balanced opener, he is counter + cantrip heavy, stiflewastes to variate his effortless cantrip juggling and casualy concedes on 13 life vs. 12 Goblins, Cage in play and empty hand...

R4 - 4C "Esper" Nemesis blade homebrew 2-0

dieroll lost

G1 - opp starts sea+go, I keep something like Sea+2xDR+2xCR+GP+Thoughtseize, Probe chains into another one into Toa... that would be for 18... GP revealed crap+BS+SP... so I DR to bait the SP, my discard baits Snapcaster->SP again 2 turns later, drawing Pif+LED in the process, he goes all in with DRS, Nemesis for beatdown, I topdeck another LED, DRS is no good, he's tapped out and doesn't have FoW as 2xLED discard+flashback everything is enough
+decays +lands+CoV-usual stuff

G2 - Tundra+go, my hand is reactive with Decay, CoV, ritual, GP, CT and Pif... GP leads me to awkward situation - opp has RiP+Fow+Snapcaster... I leave it that way decided to Decay Rip if he plays it fast or discard it (I have too many cards in GY to ignore), he Thoughtseizes my CT, I Ponder another one and get rid of RiP, I get SnapThoughtseized, and BS into a PiF kill 2 turn later when he taps for Mystic, after checking his hand for U cards to go with the FoW which is absent...

4-0 (8-0) = nm Savannah

Bed Decks Palyer

11-15-2013, 01:41 AM

Congratulations! I see that the Bolts were useful this time!

m_xer

11-15-2013, 02:08 AM

Can anyone figure out what is the purpose of additional sideboard Ad Nauseam on Timo Schünemann's deck from BoM? I understand he built the deck with the idea of having best Ad Nauseams while keeping ANT shell but when do you board another one?

I could guess you replace top against fast combo or maybe replace PiF against deck that bring in a lot of GY hate but that seem kinda sketchy.

warfordium

11-15-2013, 02:50 AM

i've played many legacy decks over the past couple years, but am committing the foreseeable to mastering a storm deck.

3-1'd my local weekly 4-rounder this week—beat Pox, Jund Loam, and Rock. lost to shardless (double deathrite, triple goyf sucks).

had been playing Carsten's 2 top, 2 LDV list a couple months back, but this week i played the 13 cantrip (1 preordain), 1 grim, 1 chrome mix with main deck ADN/PiF/Tendrils, 4 CT/3 Duress and all the rest standard (no BW). i can borrow a grim for sanctioned events but the LDV would be nice as well.

sideboard is 3 XS, 2 Carpet, 2 CoV, 2 Thoughtseize, 3 AD, 1 SDT, 1 Empty the Warrens, and 1 Despise. that last card was a comedy inclusion since i arrived 5 mins late for the first round and had to fill it in, as were the thoughtseizes (should be 2 Virtue's Ruin), BUT it nabbed a thalia against the rock in the last round.

the Ad Nauseam—i love it and hate it. it won me games against the pox and loam on turn 2, and i won off and Ad Naus down to 1 with a single ponder available to hit LED in game 3 against rock. being short 1 mana when i'd like to go off it with (with PiF not viable) happened once or twice.

while i have access to a grim tutor, it seems that in the situations i found myself in it would easily have been a LDV as well. there's a fair bit more discard in my meta compared to tempo, so the end step tutor is nice. the 3rd mana really hurts (let alone the 3 life) but the 5th tutor effect does make a difference. i might try them both out in playtesting for the next little while.

couple thoughts that came up in conversation with a rather degenerate storm player afterwards: given that the miser Chrome Mox is there for post ad naus, and sucks in an opener.... what about Mox Diamond? it can be played for storm just as well as Chrome Mox, sucks in the opener just like chrome mox, but can help get hellbent when flooded (unlike Chrome Mox, which eats business/dig/gas instead).

final point to bring up: has anyone actually cast a telemin performance from this deck? there will likely be at least 4-5 other combo players (sneak/ant/high tide/tin fins) at the next big money event in a couple weeks time (20-30 man), and i'd LOVE to get someone with that as the last kill card out of the board. for yukks. suggestions as to a better 15th slot are also welcome.

Jonathan Alexander

11-15-2013, 03:47 AM

Regarding Chrome Mox vs. Mox Diamond, that has been tried before. Post Ad Nauseam, they are more or less the same, but Chrome Mox is not only there to help making Ad Nauseams stronger, but also to power them out. Mox Diamond is much worse at this - after all, you have way more cards to pitch to Chrome than you have lands. Also, I don't actually think Chrome Mox is as bad as most other people do. Sure, it's worse than Petal, but Petal is just very, very good. I have actually had a second Chrome Mox in my sideboard for a while, but that was like two years ago.

I have also had Telemin Performance in my board when I was playing with Wishes. I had it in for about half a year and played about 18 matches of sanctioned Legacy during that time. I can only remember casting it twice in that entire time - and trust me, casting that card is something you will remember.

Mindlash

11-15-2013, 06:37 AM

Sloshthedark

11-15-2013, 06:49 AM

Telemin Performace is not worth it without BW, the idea is to get a BW kill at low mana investment when speed really matters - so it's best in TES, I played that for about 3 months in last 2 years and killed just ANT/Tes players about 4 times in all the tournaments, no luck vs Griselbrands/Emrakuls... If I were to pick up TES again the card has it's place...

A Man needs some amusement... until I Notion Thief a Time Spiral I'm not satisfied...

SaberTooth

11-15-2013, 10:06 AM

Bed Decks Palyer

11-15-2013, 12:12 PM

A Man needs some amusement... until I Notion Thief a Time Spiral I'm not satisfied...

Diminishing Returns. It's Diminishing Returns what you want to play Notion Thief in resp.
I'd sb that card in RUG just to make you happy. ;-)

Quasim0ff

11-15-2013, 12:20 PM

A Man needs some amusement... until I Notion Thief a Time Spiral I'm not satisfied...
Well… I Notion Thief'd a Ancestral + a TfK in the same match (g2/g3) at BoM :D

Jeff

11-15-2013, 01:02 PM

To me DoN is the real deal. with 2 online they cant kill you, you have all the time in the world even drawing multiples, because all their creatures die so you dont have to worry (well batterskull is a problem but with all that time you cant tendrils their heads without doubts)

While I won't disagree that 2 DoN is good, I definitely lost a game recently where I played a T1 DoN and a T3 DoN when my opponent just played 3 Phyrexian Revokers, named all my artifact mana, and then killed me.

So yeah, it doesn't actually kill EVERYTHING, just most things :)

Quasim0ff

11-15-2013, 01:48 PM

While I won't disagree that 2 DoN is good, I definitely lost a game recently where I played a T1 DoN and a T3 DoN when my opponent just played 3 Phyrexian Revokers, named all my artifact mana, and then killed me.

So yeah, it doesn't actually kill EVERYTHING, just most things :)

This is why I really like 2 DoN/1 Massacre split. I think 3 SB cards are good vs this kind of matchup.
Massacre doesn't kill teeg, which might be a slight problem, but I run 3 abrupt decays as well. So far, teeg hasn't been a problem.

Current sideboard:
2x CoV
3x Decay
2x DoN
1x Massacre
3x Xantid Swarm
3x Dark Confidant
1x Fluffercard, atm I am testing Carsten Kotter's flusterstorm.

Jeff

11-15-2013, 02:02 PM

I'm actually playing 2 Dread of Night 2 Massacre in my board right now, because at Champs D&T was freaking everywhere, and I expect to see a lot of it. I'm willing to dedicate 4 slots if it makes that big of a difference.

ThomasDowd

11-15-2013, 05:21 PM

This is why I really like 2 DoN/1 Massacre split. I think 3 SB cards are good vs this kind of matchup.
Massacre doesn't kill teeg, which might be a slight problem, but I run 3 abrupt decays as well. So far, teeg hasn't been a problem.

Current sideboard:
2x CoV
3x Decay
2x DoN
1x Massacre
3x Xantid Swarm
3x Dark Confidant
1x Fluffercard, atm I am testing Carsten Kotter's flusterstorm.

I really don't like bob in the board and have cut him from all my storm lists, too slow, the decks where he is good against (discard) you should just kill them fast.

-Last list i played was with wish. Really liked it, gives you a ton of more options. pretty easy to beat three revokers when you have a wish to go get massacre. after you have dreaded away everything else.
-Haven't really been liking decay but haven't played much recently. I'll write more on this when i get home. I am probably wrong.
-I have played singleton chrome moxen in the past. i think they are fine. i think they are better than diamonds since the deck has a 45 (36 spells if you discount non colored artifact mana + one moxen) spells and only 15 lands. one of these is more than the other. both of the moxen require ditchign another card. chrome mox can be played at all points. diamond kind of just gets stuck unless it was off an adnaus. can also repsond to the chrome mox with ad naus. and chrome mox can get you more economically hellbent.

Quasim0ff

11-15-2013, 05:25 PM

I really prefer the 3rd preordain over the singleton... Something. I feel like the deck is strong enough with 15/8 lands and accelerants.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

MTG Junkie

11-17-2013, 11:22 PM

8/1 day one with no bys. Loss was to a really good RUG Delver player.

Lost the first two rounds of day to. Lost to a not to to great RUG player,I saw right through him and went for it turn one. 2 Prbes,a Brainstonm and Ponder later I fizzled with LED Lp DR in my hand. Wtf deck.
Round two I lossed to the luckyest ELVs player ever. I therapy away a Heratige Druid he untaps top decks another plays it wile have a Q Ranger out. Then proseeds to grow his bored and passes. I untap B Storm Therapy his Crater Hoof he untaps and tops a Natural Order. Wtf.
So at this point I'm on tilt. I wonder off and do what ever. I bump into my friends and there like how did it go? I told them and then they where like well you can play it out and cash still. I was like that's a great idea lol. I then find out I completely missed round three and was dropped.
I haven't played in a GP in a veary long time,so lesson learned I guess.

Day 1 I played against 3 D@Ts,Jund,Oops all Spells,RUG Delver,ElVs dont remember the other 2. But I beat them lol.

Highlights Included:
Going off the turn before i was dead with mana PIF,B Storm,Ponder and a Probe in the yard. Witch got me a IT for the win.

Top decking the 2nd DON game 3 rd 9 to kill a Canonist and win.

Won through a Nether Void in the side event,sealing the match.

Notes:
I went back to 3 Wishs with a Toxic Deluge in the Board. Witch i never used. However i Won a bunch of games with IGG and Grim Tutor.

Every body I played was prepaid for Xantid Swarm. Might be time to switch to Silence or some thing like that,idk.

Tryed the natural Tendrils theary against RUG,seemed to be good. I had PIF LP in hand just needed a Ritual to flash back every thing but when i got the Ritual he had a counter for it.
Other wise i like the theary.

Patrunkenphat7

11-18-2013, 12:15 AM

My Record in DC was 11-4 with the following results:

W R1 Bye
W R2 Shardless BUG 2-1
W R3 Shardless BUG 2-1
W R4 Esper Deathblade 2-0
L R5 RUG Delver 1-2
L R6 UR Delver 1-2
W R7 Belcher 2-1
W R8 UW Stoneblade 2-1
W R9 RUG Delver 2-1
W R10 BUG Delver 2-0
W R11 Shardless BUG 2-0
L R12 Elves 1-2
W R13 RUG Delver 2-0
W R14 Esper Deathblade 2-0
L R15 RUG Delver 0-2

Highlights included:
-Beating 3 Hymns (one was off Agent), 2 Force, and Liliana in round 2 game 3
-18 Goblins on turn 1 on the draw after being Inquisitioned in round 4
-Losing to 3rd Stifle of the game drawn by sacrificing a Relic in response to Tendrils storm trigger in round 6 (his like 3% outer)
-Beating RUG round 9 game 2 at 3 life when his hand during the game included REB, Spell Snare, Daze, Stifle, Force, and a turn 1 Delver with perfect mana Past in Flames loop (don't know how to describe it… it was just sweet)
-Punted against Elves in round 12 because I didn't read Quirion Ranger
-Round 14 opponent scooped game 1 after I cast Probe on turn 2

cheerios

11-18-2013, 03:24 AM

New ANT player here, what's the basic strategy for beating Delver decks in general?

Asthereal

11-18-2013, 05:59 AM

New ANT player here, what's the basic strategy for beating Delver decks in general?
- Discard hard counters
- Make mana to fight through soft counters
- An early Empty the Warrens is very strong, especially if you have it in your hand
- Always keep track of Storm from opposing spells, they often open up the opportunity to go for a natural Tendrils
- If they don't put you under a lot of pressure, be sure to take your time and sculpt the perfect hand

Tempo decks with Delver are absolutely beatable, unless they draw the stone cold nuts. They will have to put you under early pressure while cantripping into more permission. Just play like 20 games against RUG, BUG (tempo) and UWR, and you'll notice how the guidelines mentioned above will work in practice. Just note that UWR plays out differently, because Batterskull often beats your goblin token army. On the other hand, you can always sacrifice one guy to flashback Therapy to get rid of it. Never forget about that option. It'll save your butt more often than you might expect it would.

kiwi

11-18-2013, 09:24 AM

Against Patriot and rug:

1º Get a basic Island, sculpt your hand, get a lot of rituals + mana artifacts, and some discard

2º Play cabal therapy , duress or thoughtseize, strip their hard counter and play rituals, for passing trhought dazes and spell pierce, and tutor for past in flames, play rituals again, discard their stifles, and tutor for tendrils.

3º Win

Usually I dont use ad nauseam against canadian an patriot.

-You have to be tricky, and dont play discard a turn at random, because they can hide their force of will with brainstorm, its better to play discard when they are tapped or the turn that you are going to win.

-In you have one land in play, one lotus petal in hand and you are going to play some cantrip, play first your lotus petal, for paying a possible daze of your opponent.

-Some people sideboard in xantid swarn against these decks, other not ... If you sideboard xantid swarn against tempo decks you have to remember, that if you see a bolt in their hand, you can use xantid sward for flashback cabal therapy. You play 1º You play xantid swarn, and without give him the priority you flashback cabal therapy :)

I agree that threshold and patriot (patriot at least in g1) are good matches for us.

Team America is a little different, they have discard and they can attack your hand and your graveyard , you have to valorate if you have to win with ad nauseam, or past in flames.

In my last tournament one friend with rug, said me, "ohhh I would like to be paired with you, Ad nauseam is a good pairing for me (He laughted)!!!", we were paired in the last round and he lost 2-0.:smile:

Jin Gitaxias

11-18-2013, 11:21 AM

Does anyone agree with me that we need a new first post in this thread? That post is several years old and thus completely outdated. It does not even mention Past in Flames.

topef27

11-18-2013, 03:07 PM

MTG Junkie

11-18-2013, 03:22 PM

Does anyone agree with me that we need a new first post in this thread? That post is several years old and thus completely outdated. It does not even mention Past in Flames.

Agreed,long over due. I think Mon,Goblin Cheif would be perfect for the job. Maybe if enough people ask or what ever he would make one for the Source.

PS updated my post.

Jay_Gatz

11-18-2013, 03:44 PM

Got 64th at the GP this weekend with a list too clunky and awful to post. Lost to RUG day one, esper stonefish miracles and rug again day 2. I got punished a lot for my awkward manabase in the last round against RUG so I'm going back to a standard grim tutor build.

Squirrel

11-18-2013, 04:09 PM

Gogo Mon

I'd really apprecciate having a primer.

cheerios

11-19-2013, 02:25 AM

Thanks for the tips guys. I seem to be making a mistake with my discarding strategy. Regarding sideboard material vs Delvers decks, which would you prefer Carpet of Flowers or Xantid Swarm?

On a side note, this deck really needs an updated primer. Come on Carsten!!

Lemnear

11-19-2013, 02:50 AM

If you want Carsten to do this, write him a regular eMail. He's not checking here every day and neither browse all the threads. I doubt you'll be lucky tbh. He's very buisy writing for SCG and possibly working on a new Type of articles afaik. He may mix some of his storm-articles together for a new primer if you ask him

civet five

11-19-2013, 02:58 AM

As a new storm player I completely agree that this thread could use a new opening post/tutorial/sideboarding guide.
I played my first tournament with ANT this weekend at the GP and went 6-3 with no byes, losing the last round of the day against elves. I may have misplayed in one of those games, so I would welcome your opinions on this sequence. I resolved Ad Nauseam on turn 2 from 17 life off a thresholded cabal ritual with a LED in play (no mana floating and I played a land this turn). I declined to crack LED, thinking that if I drew an infernal tutor, I would like to be able to empty my hand. Since there were still 4 lotus petals in the deck and only 3 LEDs, I thought it was more valuable to me uncracked. I proceeded to draw a bunch of rituals, tutors, cantrips, and LEDs, but no petal, so I stopped at 2 life (he had a llanowar elf in play), passing the turn. I died to NO into Craterhoof. Statistically I was more likely to draw a petal than another LED, but what is the correct play here, to crack or not to crack? I am thinking now that if I had used LED for black, I could have at least cast some discard to prevent me dying the next turn.

The answer is almost certainly Yes, you should have cracked. By not cracking, your only outs were 4 Petals. By cracking, you open up your options. Also, do you run Chrome Mox, Rain of Filth, or LDV?

Think about your outs via Ad Nauseum:
1) Cracked UUU: 3 LED, 4 Petal, cantrips into missing piece
2) Cracked BBB: 3 LED, 4 Petal, rituals, Tutors

I don't know what your exact deck configuration looks like, but I'm almost certain the correct play is to crack for BBB, which maximizes your outs to a resolved Ad Nauseum in the form of Tutor chains, ritual chains, Tutor+LED, Rituals + Tendrils, etc. In this particular case, cracking for BBB was a win: cast Rituals, drop LEDs, Tutor for Tutor, Tutor+crack LEDs, grab Tendrils.

One thing I always find useful when practicing with/against storm, is to revisit a specific board state over and over again. Revisit this Ad Nauseum 20 times and see what happens. Then, revisit this Ad Nauseum with 4 Petals on the bottom of the deck (in other words, how to win out of this position if you cracked).

DredgingLoam

11-19-2013, 03:40 AM

As a new storm player I completely agree that this thread could use a new opening post/tutorial/sideboarding guide.
I played my first tournament with ANT this weekend at the GP and went 6-3 with no byes, losing the last round of the day against elves. I may have misplayed in one of those games, so I would welcome your opinions on this sequence. I resolved Ad Nauseam on turn 2 from 17 life off a thresholded cabal ritual with a LED in play (no mana floating and I played a land this turn). I declined to crack LED, thinking that if I drew an infernal tutor, I would like to be able to empty my hand. Since there were still 4 lotus petals in the deck and only 3 LEDs, I thought it was more valuable to me uncracked. I proceeded to draw a bunch of rituals, tutors, cantrips, and LEDs, but no petal, so I stopped at 2 life (he had a llanowar elf in play), passing the turn. I died to NO into Craterhoof. Statistically I was more likely to draw a petal than another LED, but what is the correct play here, to crack or not to crack? I am thinking now that if I had used LED for black, I could have at least cast some discard to prevent me dying the next turn.

I was the Elves player that you played against. The game went as follows:
T1: I fetch Bayou and cast Thoughtseize (revealing Infernal Tutor, LED, Ponder, Gitaxian Probe, Scalding Tarn, Dark Ritual, Abrupt Decay) I bin Tutor
T1: You pay 2 life to Probe me (revealing Natural Order, Forest, Llanowar Elves, Green Sun's Zenith, Deathrite Shaman, Elvish Visionary). Play Tarn, fetch Sea, cast Ponder.
T2: I cast Llanowar Elves and Deathrite Shaman.
T2: You play a Delta, fetch a Tropical Island, Dark Rit (1,BBB), Abrupt Decay (2,BB), Cabal Ritual (3,BBBBB), Ad Nauseam (4,0 mana) -> 3 life. You hit 3 discard spells, an LED, Infernal Tutor, a few tutors, a few cantrips (no probes) and lands.
T3: I draw and cast Quirion Ranger to get the last mana for Natural Order into Craterhoof and 7 you. If you had not gone for the Ad Nauseam that turn, you would have died to Ruric Thar I assume.

You did not have LED in play. You had it in your hand before casting Ad Nauseam, but that is less relevant than the sequencing of activating it, because you would have cast the LED before hand if necessary. I believe that you had to cast Ad Nauseam that turn and that you should have used LED for Black mana because, as you said, you would have been able at least set up a hand for the next turn and use that turn for discard spells if you didn't have a win. I think that I almost always crack there, but I can see holding it for Infernal Tutor. I just think that you had to stop me before I went off myself Not necessarily going off yourself, but just stopping me for a turn or two to build up another big turn.

Sinkhole

11-19-2013, 04:41 AM

I think it was a misstake not cracking the LED for BBB. Yes sometimes it happens, that you can`t generate Hellbent after Ad Nauseam, but I think the percentage of fizzeling after AdN without manafloting is really higher, than the Hellbent thing. Even with T.E.S I would have cracked LED in this scenario, where I would have 3 Chrome Mox as additional outs. Also I would suggest trying out a Grim Tutor or Lim Dul`s Vault + 1 Chrome Mox and your Ad Nauseams will be really better, after that small changes.

MTG Junkie

11-19-2013, 08:54 AM

Lemnear

11-19-2013, 10:09 AM

Do you know his e mail? I'd give e mailing him a shot,especially for a chance at a new primer. If so pm me.

Sure I know. May better send him a PM ... could take a few days for him to answer, but handing out private mail is uncool

Jeff

11-19-2013, 10:13 AM

I'm not the most expertiest of experts, but I can write a primer for this deck if people are willing to wait until after Thanksgiving. I might get it done a little before then but I'm busy at work and at home right now. I've played the deck every week almost nonstop for about 6 months (ever since I got LEDs for a wedding present), including several major tournaments (Champs, SCG Open, GP DC), and I'm a decent writer.

Obviously Carsten knows the deck better than I do, but I'm also not writing elsewhere so I may have more time/interest to do it.

Star|Scream

11-19-2013, 10:22 AM

Did anyone in this thread play in the Legacy Plus event at the GP? There was soooo much combo there!

MTG Junkie

11-19-2013, 10:30 AM

[QUOTE=Star|Scream;767039]Did anyone in this thread play in the Legacy Plus event at the GP? There was soooo much combo there![
Yeah there was. I lost to TES and Sneak and Show. However I managed to win through a Nether Void in the event
Was veary satisfying.

MTG Junkie

11-19-2013, 10:58 AM

Sure I know. May better send him a PM ... could take a few days for him to answer, but handing out private mail is uncool

Ofcourse. I was thinking along the lines of a E Mail setup for readers that I didn't know of. Will just pm him.

Lemnear

11-19-2013, 11:02 AM

Ofcourse,I was thinking along the lines of a Mail setup for readers or what ever.

I'm not sure if there's something on SCG. I may meet him Thursday anyways so I can ask

bjholmes3

11-20-2013, 12:11 AM

To accelerate this process, I've started making a basic framework for the Primer that can be fixed up nice and proper by whomever becomes responsible for it. I'll finish this through edits over time.

http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/twtw/twtw80_tendrils.jpg

Ad Nauseam Tendrils

I. What is the deck?

Ad Nauseam Tendrils is a combo deck that focuses on abusing the Storm mechanic to cast a game-winning Tendrils of Agony. This is made possible by the combination of powerful ritual effects, excellent tutors, powerful Storm engines, and a discard suite for protection, all of which will be discussed in upcoming sections. This deck is powerful and consistent, and has consistently placed in big tournaments for years. If you want a strong combo deck that has a long history of success, this is the deck for you.

II. What does the deck look like?

Here are some sample decklists taken from high finishes in recent events:

2nd Place @ SCG Open Dallas 10/11/13, by Avery Williams

1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

1 Swamp
1 Volcanic Island
2 Gemstone Mine
2 Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta

// Sideboard
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Slaughter Pact
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Tropical Island
1 Karakas

3rd Place @ BoM Paris 3/11/13, by Grzegorz Jezierski

1 Ad Nauseam
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Burning Wish
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

1 Badlands
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Swamp
1 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta

// Sideboard
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Massacre
1 Reverent Silence
1 Past in Flames
1 Wipe Away
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pyroclasm
1 Deathmark
2 Extirpate
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Meltdown
1 Tropical Island

6th Place @ Eternal Weekend 2/11/13, by Mark Tocco

1 Ad Nauseam
1 Lim-Dûl's Vault
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Preordain
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Ponder
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

1 Badlands
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta

// Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Dark Confidant
1 Empty the Warrens
3 Massacre
3 Xantid Swarm

III. How do I play the deck?

This deck typically wins on turn 3-4, with occasional turn 2 wins and rare turn 1 wins. This means that for the first 2-3 turns of the game, you want to be digging for your combo pieces with your cantrips and disrupting your opponent with discard. When you have your pieces and the coast is clear, you will start to cast ritual effects, draw spells, and Storm engines until you have amassed adequate Storm to finish them off with Tendrils of Agony (the formula for this is simple: half the opponent's current life, rounded up, minus 1 is how much Storm you need before casting Tendrils of Agony). The biggest obstacle to learning Storm combo is learning how and when to combo. Failing to learn this will cause you to keep bad hands, to get hated out by the opponent, and to fizzle. Therefore, outlined below are some example combo routes to get you started. Be sure to read the Cards section below for more in-depth info on when and how each card should be used. Let it be said, however, that the best way to learn is to watch skilled pilots play the deck, and to goldfish it yourself.

Legend

#StormCount CardName(ManaFloating)(Notes)
All examples assume player has out 1 Swamp, 1 Island, and 1 Underground Sea
All examples assume player has 5 cards in grave, with 2 fetches and 3 draw/discard

Past in Flames Engine

1 Gitaxian Probe(Opponent has no disruption), 2 Lion's Eye Diamond, 3 Dark Ritual(BBB), 4 Cabal Ritual(BBBBBB)(Threshold), 5 Infernal Tutor -> Crack Lion's Eye Diamond(BBBBRRR)(LED for Red, Tutor for Past in Flames), 6 Past in Flames(BBB), 7 Cabal Ritual(BBBBBB)(Flashback), 8 Dark Ritual(BBBBBBBB)(Flashback), 9 Infernal Tutor(BBBBBB)(Flashback, Tutor for Tendrils of Agony), 10 Tendrils of Agony(BB)(20 damage)

Tutor Chain Engine

1 Gitaxian Probe(Opponent has castable Force of Will), 2 Cabal Therapy(Naming Force of Will), 3 Lion's Eye Diamond, 4 Lion's Eye Diamond, 5 Dark Ritual(BBB), 6 Cabal Ritual(BBBBBB), 7 Infernal Tutor -> Crack both Lion's Eye Diamond(BBBBBBBBBB)(LEDs for Black, Tutor for another Tutor), 8 Infernal Tutor(BBBBBBBB)(Tutor for another Tutor), 9 Infernal Tutor(BBBBBB)(Tutor for Tendrils of Agony), 10 Tendrils of Agony(BB)(20 damage)

IV. What do the cards do?

Cantrips

Brainstorm - The best card in Legacy, so-called. This does so many things for us. Cast in response to discard to place important cards safely on top of your library. Put something on top of your library, cast a cantrip, then crack LED in response to draw the card with LED mana available to cast it. Even without tricks you still see 3 new cards and keep at least 1 of them. Note that, because they can protect you from discard, it is often beneficial not to use these right away when you suspect that may be an issue. Also, this card becomes much better when used in conjunction with the shuffling effect of Tutors or Fetches, as you typically don't want the 2 cards you send back. It's typically good not to cast this without having a shuffle effect available.
Gitaxian Probe - Very useful little sucker. Alerts us to potential combo deterrents in opponent's hand. Makes Cabal Therapy better. Draws us a card. Gives us easy Storm, all for the low cost of 2 life. However, becomes less useful post-Ad Nauseam and with multiple copies in hand.
Ponder - Great card. Not as exciting as BS, but it still lets us see 3 cards and keep 1. Don't hesitate to shuffle them in if you don't see helpful things. Remember, if you keep a dud pile, you condemn yourself to 1-2 turns of nothing. Not a good plan in Legacy. Again, this card is typically much improved in conjunction with fetchlands, which allow you to take key cards and shuffle away the jank.
Preordain - This is the more fickle of the cantrips we run. It's decent, but whenever new tech comes around or it's time to sideboard, this is usually the first thing to go. That said, this still allows us to see 2 cards and have complete control over when those cards are drawn, if at all. The digging power it offers in conjunction with the other cantrips helps to assemble combos quickly and efficiently, but running so many cantrips can also make your early game durdly, non-interactive, and potentially stale. Playtest from 12 to 16 cantrips and decide how many you would feel comfortable running.

Discard

Cabal Therapy - Amazing spell, once you get used to it. This card requires extensive knowledge of the entire format to utilize fully, as well as info on what your opponent is running. Or Gitaxian Probe, whichever works best for you. We won't be taking any advantage of it's Flashback function, unfortunately, so our opponent is only scheduled for a maximum of four therapy sessions. We must make them count. We must sit the opponent down and make sure they're comfortable (sit across from them to play cards). We start to talk about how their life is, what their goals are, and how they feel about things (badger them and try to trick them into revealing what deck they're playing and what they boarded in). We try to find insight into the embarassing or shameful memories which they aren't sharing with us (we stare at their glasses, glossy forehead, or shiny bling to see if we can see a reflection of the cards in their hand). Then, with the tactful expertise of a professional, we attempt to relieve them of their stress (make them get rid of important cards). You see, in the end, everyone's happy. You have either interrupted their plans or prevented them from interrupting yours, and their hand has become lighter, and thus easier to hold. Win-Win.
Duress - Great discard. Fun feature, the opponent cannot Misdirection this card back to you, since you aren't your own opponent. If you are, you need a Therapy session to discard that extra personality. Anyways, this card is good because it gets rid of everything we need it to EXCEPT for hatebears. For this reason, against creature-centric decks like Death & Taxes we will be siding these out, as they become nigh-useless.
Thoughtseize - Usually a discard all-star, this card becomes less useful here, mainly because it has terrible synergy with Ad Nauseam. Nonetheless, it hits everything that we need to get rid of, and if you are willing to work more with this and less with AdN, feel free to give it a try.
Inquisition of Kozilek - Meh. It does get rid of hatebears and other weenies without the lifeloss, and it gets rid of most countermagic, but it misses out on a lot of huge stuff we need to get rid of, like Force of Will, Natural Order, Jace, the Mindsculptor, Omniscience, Enter the Infinite, etc. Therefore, it is not advisable to run this card.

Mana Acceleration

Lotus Petal - Good card for our deck. Free Storm and mana, all for the cost of one card? Sign me up! Generally you will want to save these until combo turn unless you are afraid something will happen to them (discard, counters, whatever) in the meantime, or unless you need to mana, obviously.
Lion's Eye Diamond - One of the key cards of our deck. Free Storm and mana if you use it right. Obviously you can't go casting cards in your hand with LED, but there are some tricks of the trade. Note, however, that as of 2010 I believe you can't carry mana over from the upkeep to the draw step. So, if you're reading info from before then, don't be tempted by those shenanigans. So, to make the most out of this, keep the following tricks in mind. For one, this card works extremely well with Infernal Tutor. Most of the time you crack a LED, it will be for that interaction. This is sometimes a source of confusion, so pay attention. You cast LED and pass priority (assume it resolves). Then, you cast Infernal Tutor and crack LED in response without asking your opponent "k?". If you ask for a response to IT before cracking LED, they can just say "k" and suddenly you can't crack LED anymore until IT does its thing. Other benefits of doing the above listed procedure is that it makes your LED safe from Instant-speed permanent removal. Your opponent never has priority while LED is a permanent, so cards like Abrupt Decay are useless. If you have Past in Flames in hand or in the bin, this card can help you cast it easily. When you cast Ad Nauseam with these out, think about your goals. If you have enough mana floating to reasonably win the game with the cards you draw, keep your LEDs in case you get lots of lands with your Tutors. Otherwise, crack them so you have enough mana to at least set yourself up with an awesome hand and a clear field for next turn. Also, these empower your Cabal Rituals. Cast Tutor, respond with CRit, then crack LED to reach Threshold for tons of mana.
Dark Ritual - Ah, the Lightning Bolt of mana acceleration. Trade 1 mana for 3 mana and Storm count. This card is fantastic. There's not too much else to be said about this, really. Just don't forget that you can cast this in response to a taxing counter like Spell Pierce to surprise pay for it, should the need arise.
Cabal Ritual - Again, don't forget this card is an Instant. You can cast it in response to taxing counters to surprise your opponent. Before threshold this card is meh, but given the nature of this deck, we are likely to reach Threshold by the time we cast this card. After Threshold, this card provides massive mana acceleration. Timo Schunemann put it best by saying that "Cabal Ritual has more skulls printed on it than the average cover of a black metal band". Truth.

Business

Ad Nauseam - Ah, the namesake of the deck. Do keep in mind, however, that this card is not your primary or even your secondary route to victory (those are Tutor Chaining and PiF "loops", respectively). Like Tracy Morgan, this is the third heat that makes your Storm oven extra-effective. You use this if you need to pull a win out of nowhere, which it can and will do for you, or if you only need a couple cards and know this will get them for you. Never get too greedy with this card. Don't go down to 3 if the opponent has a Mountain untapped. Don't take any more cards once you hit 4 life unless you must. Just be wary of what your opponent can do to you when you cast this. Also, don't forget it's an Instant, meaning that you can cast it EoT on your opponent's turn to set up your combo turn, or in response to something that your opponent casts that would otherwise screw you over.
Infernal Tutor - One of the best cards in our deck, and reminiscent of the only Yugioh deck worth playing (what?). You will cast this card at least once in almost every game that you win. Interacts nicely with Lion's Eye Diamond to reach Hellbent. See the combo routes in the above section to see what to fetch and what to crack LED for. Remember, this card can fail to find things if you use its first ability, which is helpful if you have a hand with 2 Tutors and not enough mana for a full chain. You can use this early to fetch up more acceleration to combo off, if needed. Also, if your opponent hits you with discard, this is what they usually will (and should) get first. For the love of all that is holy, don't let this get Surgical Extraction'd. Use Brainstorm to protect this card, as it is extremely valuable.
Past in Flames - Fabulous card. One of the more recent additions to our deck, as well, so you won't see this in older builds. This makes comboing out much easier. See the above combo routes section for more info on how to use this card. Beware, of course, that this card means that opposing grave hate actually becomes relevant, so be ready to play through or around that. Also, when you're Flashbacking everything, keep in mind to cast Cabal Ritual again while you still have Threshold, and to tutor for Tendrils of Agony before you flashback cantrips for Storm.
Tendrils of Agony - Our wincon, and the ugliest card in our deck (unless you have the FNM promo version, of course). When casting this card, keep in mind how the opponent can interact with it. Countermagic will only counter one of the many copies of this card, but that also means that you need more Storm to kill them. Also, the opponent can do tricky things like Swords to Plowshares-ing their own dudes. Be vigilant and prepared. Also, while this card is pretty resilient to countermagic, it is still vulnerable to the likes of Flusterstorm and Mindbreak Trap, so be sure to get rid of that stuff. Also, do not forget, the Storm trigger can be Stifle'd. Do not let this happen to you, or you will soon see your opponent posting about it on the Interwebs and it will be embarrassing.

Less Common Options

Burning Wish - This card has its ups and its downs in our build of Storm. On the one hand, it gives us outs to a lot of shenanigans, so our opponents don't accidentally win game 1 by resolving, say, Gaddock Teeg. It also helps us be even more flexible in our routes to victory. However, the fact remains that it is off-color, demanding a heavier dependence on R, which mandates some changes in our manabase. Also, casting this card before combo turn is usually not what this deck wants to be doing, so its usefulness is limited here as opposed to its usefulness in TES.
Lim-Dul's Vault - Another powerful, but limited card. With life to spare, you can find any one card to set up your next draw. With any luck, you can even find two, three, or more. Also, being an Instant is nice, allowing you to use it EoT on your opponent's turn to set up your big move. However, the main issue with this card is that it doesn't cantrip. This card is effective only when you have another cantrip to get your card(s) or when you devote an entire turn to it, thus limiting its use in our build of Storm.

Common Sideboard Options

Tropical Island - You will almost always need G post-board. If you don't have one of these in your MD, keep one in your SB.
Xantid Swarm, Carpet of Flowers - This is our version of the Silence that T.E.S. runs. They each have advantages and disadvantages. Swarm is a recurring quasi-Chant, and excels against U decks like Miracles and High Tide. It is a must-counter, or else they basically lose. It also protects us from any other shenanigans the opponent may have had planned in hand for our combo turn. Carpet, on the other hand, performs very well against decks like RUG Delver which run lot's of soft counters and creature removal. Carefully plan for your meta and decide which of the two is best for you.
Abrupt Decay - The best excuse to Sideboard in a random new color ever. This card alone changes matchups. Counterbalance, Trinisphere, and Chalice of the Void no longer cripple us. Deathrite Shaman or basically any other relevant creature threat giving you trouble? Dead. Really, this card is amazing, and one of the best SB options we could hope for.
Karakas - This card has a lot of uses. It protects us from the fatties that decks like Hypergenesis, Reanimator, Dredge (on DR plan), Elves (lol), and Sneak Show like to bring in against us. It gets rid of annoying things like Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Gaddock Teeg. Best of all, it's permanent and uncounterable. Sweet!
Slaughter Pact, Massacre, Dread of Night, etc. - These cards all serve pretty much the same function: kill Thalia. OK, so they do more than that, but they're mainly to improve the unfavorable matchup against Death & Taxes type decks. Use these to get rid of creatures you simply can't play around and, of course, for the free (or cheap) Storm!
Chain of Vapor - This card is exciting. It's cheaper, on color, and hits some things that Decay misses, like Leyline of Sanctity, at the cost of being counterable. The bounce usually isn't a problem, as you'll tend to cast this when your opponent will not be receiving another turn to recast their beloved permanent. Also, you can be tricky with this. Bounce your own free Artifacts, sac your tapped lands, and then get your opponent's stuff. Free storm, 1 less troublesome permanent to worry about, and potential protection on your artifact mana? The Circus of Value clown would be proud.
Wipe Away - This is like the compromise between Decay and CoV. It's on color and it hits everything that either of the other two could hit, all at the cost of being, well, costly. 3 mana is a lot.
Dark Confidant - Bob is primarily for decks that wish to regain card advantage after being ravaged by opposing discard. He's useful, but also risky. He makes our life total even more relevant than it already is, and severely limits the usefulness of AdN.
Empty the Warrens - This is your alternate win-con. This is where the sideboarding metagame really comes into play. On the one hand, much of the hate for Tendrils is blanked by this card (e.g. Leyline of Sanctity), and you can go off both earlier and with lower Storm counts (12-14 goblins is usually adequate), but on the other hand, these tokens will die if you breathe on them too hard, and Batterskull will ruin your day. Typically, though, your average opponent won't go creature hate on you, so this is a useful thing to throw into your deck post-board to deal with the hate you anticipate for your opponent to bring in.

V. What do my matchups look like?

vs. Elves Very Favorable

This is our best matchup by far. Elves has practically no chance against us whatsoever game 1, and they still struggle hardcore post-board. Seriously, every time I play against Elves, I feel like I've won some kind of matchup-raffle. So anyways, their plan early-game is to set up low-cost elves to prepare for their combo. Then, when it's time to combo off, they resolve a Glimpse of Nature and continue to cast and draw more cards until they resolve a lethal Craterhoof Behemoth. As an alternate win, they can resolve Anakin Skywalker Natural Order to bring out a fattie like Progenitus or Craterhoof Behemoth. The problem they have is that they can't really interact with you at all, except for DRS nuking your yard, and they are a turn slower than we are, some game 1 is basically a goldfish. Post-board, they bring in some discard and something along the lines of Ruric Thar, the Unbowed and/or Mindbreak Trap. Don't fall for MBT, and definitely don't let Ruric Thar happen. When using discard, always aim for their Natural Order, Green Sun's Zenith, Glimpse of Nature, Craterhoof Behemoth (builds that don't run 1 only have 2, so hitting him is big), and combo food, Heritage Druid and Wirewood Symbiote being big ones.

vs. RUG Delver

Ah, tempo decks. Much fun. This has been the most popular deck in Legacy for some time (although Elves is starting to get up there), so it would behoove you to be prepared for this matchup. Their strategy is to wreck your early game by Stifle-ing your fetches, Wasteland-ing your duals, and countering your spells. In the meantime, they resolve a Delver of Secrets, Nimble Mongoose, or Tarmogoyf and ride it to victory by preventing you from doing anything about it. First thing's first, use your basics. This is one of the main reasons we have them. They can't be killed by Wasteland, and that gives us a big advantage. Until you know better, always assume the opponent has a counter in hand, so don't try to play important things unless you must, in which case, try to have 2 mana available to pay for their soft counters. Also, when discarding things, remember that they can't cast FoW without something U to pitch, so if you see a hand like Force of Will, Wasteland, Stifle, Tarmogoyf, Lightning Bolt, consider taking the Stifle to put them off of two cards at once. This is especially useful if you do it the turn you go off. Post-board, your Swarm/Carpet will help you deal with their counters. As for what they might bring in, Surgical Extraction, Flusterstorm, Tormod's Crypt, and possibly Vendilion Clique are things you can expect to see. RUG doesn't change too much against us, so try to keep a good hand with one of your SB counter-hate options and have at it!

vs. BUG Control

BUG Control, a relative newcomer to the Legacy gauntlet. It is full of all sorts of card-advantage, what with Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Baleful Strix, and powerful cascades from Shardless Agent. They also run Deathrite Shaman to disrupt our grave, Tarmogoyf to put a clock on us, and Liliana of the Veil to ruin our hand, with her sidekick, the little pixie from Thoughtseize. To round it all off, they also run several counters and permanent destruction. Like an angry Gators fan at a Bulldogs game, we'll have to fight through lots of hate. When you have artifact mana in hand, you have to decide whether it's safer to hold on to it until combo turn and risk it being discarded or playing it early and opening it up to Decay. When you play your cantrips, you need to thing very, very carefully about how you stack your draws. Brainstorm is incredibly important to surviving this matchup, don't blow it right away like a noob. When you're preparing to dismantle their hand, always make sure to go for the thing they have which will disrupt you the most and prevent you from comboing off when you want to. Always think hard about what you're trying to accomplish before you decide what to strip away, instead of just "lol, Jace, where are your $100 now?".

vs. Sneak Attack

The tried and true way to cheat ridiculous creatures into play, the creatures of choice tending towards Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and Griselbrand. This deck uses cantrips and Intuition to find their stuff (formally referred to as durdling), Show and Tell and Sneak Attack to get everyone's favorite demon and/or spaghetti monster into play, accel like Lotus Petal and the Sol lands to play stuff on a timely basis, and countermagic to back it all up. Post-board, they have better counters in Flusterstorm and more business, if they want it. This matchup is all about the race, with your discard vs their counters. Carefully consider the game state when you play your discard. It's a hard decision between fatties and cheats, but usually you want to go off before they do, so counters will be your targets. Also, they tend to run Misdirection, so they can hit your discard. Call it reverse psychology. Just remember you still pick what to hit. If they bounce a Therapy, name something awesome.

vs. Jund

Turn 1 Thoughtseize, turn 2 Hymn to Tourach, turn 3 Liliana of the Veil, gg? This deck wins by attacking our hands with discard, gaining card advantage through Lili and Dark Confidant, abusing extremely useful creatures such as Deathrite Shaman and Tarmogoyf, and shooting down early permanents with spot removal like Abrupt Decay. Proper use of our cantrips is critical to succeeding in this matchup. Set up your upcoming draws with business so that you'll only draw it the turn you use it, keeping the important things safe from discard. Consider when to play out your artifact mana and when to keep it in hand. Post-board, they have access to Surgical Extraction, so be extremely careful about the cards you keep in your opening hand. Do not keep any hands with critical spells like Infernal Tutor or Tendrils of Agony unless you can either win without them or take care of their threats. However, an full opening hand of 7 cards has great value here, as an otherwise good mulligan to 4 or 5 becomes less good when it gets attacked every turn. Be careful.

vs. Patriot xx-xx

Game 1:
SB:
Game 2/3:

vs. OmniTell

This is a mono-U combo deck with a similar clock to ours but with countermagic in the place of our discard. It wins by cheating in either Omniscience or Dream Halls (occasionally a hard-cast on this one), then casting Enter the Infinite to draw their deck. To get there, they run lots of cantrips and tutors, and to stay there, they run lots of counters. Post-board they have even more, although they can Wish these in game 1 as needed. This matchup is another race. Post board, we want to bring in our bouce spells and extra discard. Hitting Omniscience with Enter the Infinite on the stack is a devastating play.

vs. Death & Taxes Unfavorable

Nothing is certain but death and taxes, and you'll hate your life until your dead. They have Wasteland and Rishidan Port to harass our manabase, Phyrexian Revoker to attack our artifact mana, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben to heavily strain our spell chains, and Aven Mindcensor to wreak absolute havoc on our fetches and our tutors. We have to be fast in this matchup to succeed. Use your basics, and assume that if they leave mana open they are going to Mindcensor you. Post-board, they have access to Ethersworn Cannonist to stop our combo completely. Luckily, the majority of our sideboard is devoted to this very matchup. We want to side out any copies of Duress we may be using and side in all of our creature hate. Best of luck!

vs. Miracle Control xx-xx

Game 1:
SB:
Game 2/3:

vs. Reanimator

The best piece of advice I can give you for this matchup is to not discard their fatties, lol. Their gameplan is to get one of their fatties in the bin via Entomb, self-targeted discard, or cleanup step, then to use one of their many reanimation spells to cheat it into play. They have Daze and Force of Will to help them out. Post-board, they have access to more counters, and potentially Show and Tell to have more routes to victory. To practice this matchup, I recommend trying this deck out for a little while. This will help you know what to discard to interfere with their combo. For instance, when they have Entomb and Reanimate in hand, binning their Entomb blanks their reanimate because they need to find a fattie and bin it.

Lemnear

11-20-2013, 02:54 AM

2nd Place @ BoM Paris 3/11/13, by Grzegorz Jezierski

1 Ad Nauseam
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Burning Wish
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

1 Badlands
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Swamp
1 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta

// Sideboard
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Massacre
1 Reverent Silence
1 Past in Flames
1 Wipe Away
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pyroclasm
1 Deathmark
2 Extirpate
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Meltdown
1 Tropical Island

Neither the list nor the placing is correct. Greetings

Lans89

11-20-2013, 05:43 AM

Yeah don't ever first post a list without Brainstorm :P!

Dia_Bot

11-20-2013, 05:44 AM

Challenge: win a (min 25 person) tournament with a list without brainstorm!
Any takers? :tongue:

For instance, given the choice of Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Gaddock Teeg, you should always name Teeg. Thalia is annoying to win through, but Teeg is impossible to win through, pre-board at least for most decks.

I'm afraid I don't agree with you here. When you play against a deck with maindeck Gaddock teeg and Thalia (hello, Maverick) it is imo always the right play to name thalia. While Teeg will be a one-off Thalia is a 4-off in those deck.
On top of this they have 3 or 4 GSZ to go search for their Teeg.
It is true that Teeg is GG but imo it's always better to name thalia (or GSZ for that matter if they know you play storm).

Lans89

11-20-2013, 06:22 AM

Preboard I name Thalia, postboard I name Teeg/Zenith, Canonist or even Revoker (depends on the deck) because I will most likely hit one of my three Dread of Night to instantly kill Thalia.

MTG Junkie

11-20-2013, 08:48 AM

Nice job on the Tendrils pic :wink:

3 Massacre in Mark Tocco's board? That just seems weird.

bjholmes3

11-20-2013, 09:55 AM

Neither the list nor the placing is correct. Greetings

Oops, just copypasted straight from The Council without even noticing. What is the list supposed to be?

Yeah, the Teeg/Thalia thing was a weak example. It was tough coming up with something helpful that wasn't also pedantically obvious.

Lemnear

11-20-2013, 10:22 AM

Oops, just copypasted straight from The Council without even noticing. What is the list supposed to be?

Yeah, the Teeg/Thalia thing was a weak example. It was tough coming up with something helpful that wasn't also pedantically obvious.

As far as i have seen, he did not play Preordain so these should be the brainstorms and he finished either 3rd or 4th

bjholmes3

11-20-2013, 10:32 AM

That makes sense. Also, he finished 3rd. 2nd was a brain-fart on my part, can't blame The Council for that one, lol.

Anyways, updated the primer outline, fixing issues and adding a mana accel section.

Zombie

11-20-2013, 10:43 AM

Neither the list nor the placing is correct. Greetings

Link to the correct list? BoM site also lists it as playing Ponder and Preordain.

EDIT: Also maybe with the new primer we should start to push for a new name for the deck, because it sure as hell isn't an Ad Nauseam deck anymore. Storm, Fetchland Tendrils, something. Something not named after one of the worst cards in the deck.

bjholmes3

11-20-2013, 11:11 AM

We should call it Preordain Storm.

Updated post with Business spell section. This is exhausting.

Lemnear

11-20-2013, 11:44 AM

Mon,Goblin Chief

11-20-2013, 11:49 AM

Hi everybody, thanks for the confidence! :) To get the bad news out of the way first, I won't be able to do a primer for the thread. Between my articles and and my master thesis, I really don't have time for another solid piece of writing at the moment (and I refuse to do half-assed work). Feel free to hit me up in a couple of months if you don't get anything done that you're happy with until then.
Happily, it seems someone is taking up the reigns anyway (good work, holmes! - I've always wanted to say that ;) ). I'll make sure to follow how that sweet primer evolves and will give any feedback I think might be useful. Feel free to link to my articles, by the way. I think the storm games ones should be useful to transmit a feel for how the deck plays out and the very first one (about storm) should have a lot of the basics covered (it was called "the Cabal Rises", if memory serves).

bjholmes3

11-20-2013, 12:25 PM

Good stuff. The idea was for me to get all the mundane stuff out of the way so you (and the other pros, really) could take a little time to throw in some juicy bits without being bogged down with all the work of writing a primer.

Updated post, added a Sideboard options section. Now that that's done, it's time for matchup analyses and sideboard options to get written. I'll need help with this one. Cockatrice has not helped me learn SB technique very well. I wonder why that is? :rolleyes:

nevilshute

11-20-2013, 12:37 PM

Good job Holmes :)

Jonathan Alexander

11-20-2013, 02:42 PM

Tammit67

11-20-2013, 02:55 PM

I am going to write about Storm again this week, so are there any questions you guys feel need to be answered but aren't really primer-material? (This basically boils down to current problems rather than broader subjects.)

Current problem: TNN decks need fewer cards in board to answer other fair matchups they previously had to worry about, and now can prepare for the unfair section of the meta more easily. See: 4x meddling mage out of GP DC winning list. How can storm adapt if it needs to?

Lemnear

11-20-2013, 03:08 PM

Current problem: TNN decks need fewer cards in board to answer other fair matchups they previously had to worry about, and now can prepare for the unfair section of the meta more easily. See: 4x meddling mage out of GP DC winning list. How can storm adapt if it needs to?

First step should be replacing the Duress slots with Thoughtseize to handle the rise of the hatebears in the Esperblades, Patriots, etc. so you are not completely dependent to find your CoV/Decays/etc. and have more outs against such stuff. It's not that Ad Nauseam is MB material anymore

Jonathan Alexander

11-20-2013, 03:44 PM

Current problem: TNN decks need fewer cards in board to answer other fair matchups they previously had to worry about, and now can prepare for the unfair section of the meta more easily. See: 4x meddling mage out of GP DC winning list. How can storm adapt if it needs to?

It's funny you mention exactly this, because Owen's sideboard is actually the reason I am thinking about how to adjust Storm. I don't care much for Legacy right now as I won't get to play it again until GP Paris in February, but I think the current fair deck sideboard situation is really interesting.

Sloshthedark

11-20-2013, 03:54 PM

MM is one of the better hatebears, no stifle, no Cannonist, I'm fine playing vs that list... I'm more worried about Golgari charm and other indirect sweepers needed to battle TNN in the metagame that step into the EtW plan...

to answer previous question +thoughtseize (2 is a limit for the deck I think), diversified removal... maybe you'll like the Bolt after all ;)

Koby

11-20-2013, 04:22 PM

My understanding of the ANT vs W/x hatebears is that there are really two main options:

Virtue's Ruin at :2::b: (Toxic Deluge also fits, but more restrictive in casting from life payment)
Massacre at :0: (effective), but not all encompassing since it's neutered by Gaddock Teeg.

Anything else is just weaker than these options. Sometimes, Massacre cannot interact with Canonist + Sword of X/Y profitably. Other time, Thalia makes casting Virtue's Ruin an exercise in frustration. I'm more inclined to have Massacre vs UW, and Virtue's Ruin vs GW/x due the lack of Gaddock Teeg from UW. Oddly enough, Thalia makes that more rewarding the other way, but that's the way it is.

Pyroclasm is a close approximation, and while cheaper than Virtue's Ruin, also cannot interact with an equipped hate-bear. Additionally, it's still cold to Mother of Runes + hate bear as seen from times to times from Maverick, Bant, D&T, and some Junk decks.

davelin

11-20-2013, 04:36 PM

4 Dread of Night!

Koby

11-20-2013, 04:42 PM

Seems ambitious against Canonist, Gaddock Teeg, and Meddling Mage. While it answers Thalia perfectly fine, you need to both warp the sideboard to accommodate it, and need to find a 2nd copy before you can proceed to the Combo step. Against the blue variations of White hate-bear decks, this also means resolving it through countermagic. I suppose any anti-white creature card suffers that dilemma, but having to resolve multiple pieces to beat Meddling Mage/Canonist, well that becomes an even tougher challenge.

Tammit67

11-20-2013, 04:47 PM

4 Dread of Night!

After Ari lax won legacy champs with death and taxes, dreads have been my go to hate card along with the standard chains and abrupt decay. It isn't a card I want against UW though.

EDIT: Perhaps Europe is still in another world from the US meta, but Ad Nauseum is almost necessary main to combat the decks that try to strip our hand then negate our GY that are still abundant at least here on the East Coast. In particular, Jund, Junk, Team America, Shardless BUG, Dark maverick, some Elves draws, Esper stoneblade, Esper Deathblade are all decks that have the potential to make me want to run out all of my LEDs asap and wait to top deck a tutor and just kill them.

Perhaps I'm taking the wrong lines of play here, but it is a lot harder to play the 'find the tutor' game to combo off when best engine in past in flames is smothered by deathrite and the discard prevents having the rituals to properly tutor chain.

I played with Empty main over Ad naus at GP DC and punted my way out of day 2. There a handful of points across the 4 rounds I played where I wish the empty main was Ad naus (and in fact I lost game 2 of round 4 because I didn't board it in like an idiot)

davelin

11-20-2013, 05:12 PM

Koby

11-20-2013, 05:27 PM

Perhaps I'm taking the wrong lines of play here, but it is a lot harder to play the 'find the tutor' game to combo off when best engine in past in flames is smothered by deathrite and the discard prevents having the rituals to properly tutor chain.

The last time I tinkered with ANT lists, and keeping track of matchups, I was about 35% against FoW decks, and about 55% against the format as a whole. I think the post is buried somewhere from late December 2012 or January 2013. Anyways, the DeathBlade lists were a real problem due to what you're describing. Maybe he's time to set aside ANT for a faster deck?

JamieW89

11-20-2013, 05:32 PM

Link to the correct list? BoM site also lists it as playing Ponder and Preordain.

EDIT: Also maybe with the new primer we should start to push for a new name for the deck, because it sure as hell isn't an Ad Nauseam deck anymore. Storm, Fetchland Tendrils, something. Something not named after one of the worst cards in the deck.

Funnily enough I put Fetchland Tendrils on my decklist at BoM, they chose to name it ANT though.

Regarding AdN/EtW: I'd play Ad Nauseam right now over here because of the large amount of combo decks (the last Dutch tournament easily had over 50% combo). I'm fine without AdN main versus Jund-esque decks though, although I definately sideboard it in if it's not already there.

Regarding hate: DDFT seems better fit in a world filled with hatebears and gy hate (DRS and the fact that Dredge did well in DC). UBr seems fine unless there is a lot of storm/stifle/snares. Sadly that deck has a really weak Sneak & Derp matchup, which is way too popular over here :(. Maybe TES works too, but it just feels much less consistent.

Tom T

11-20-2013, 07:50 PM

Funnily enough I put Fetchland Tendrils on my decklist at BoM, they chose to name it ANT though.

Regarding AdN/EtW: I'd play Ad Nauseam right now over here because of the large amount of combo decks (the last Dutch tournament easily had over 50% combo). I'm fine without AdN main versus Jund-esque decks though, although I definately sideboard it in if it's not already there.

Regarding hate: DDFT seems better fit in a world filled with hatebears and gy hate (DRS and the fact that Dredge did well in DC). UBr seems fine unless there is a lot of storm/stifle/snares. Sadly that deck has a really weak Sneak & Derp matchup, which is way too popular over here :(. Maybe TES works too, but it just feels much less consistent.

Theoretically, TES is better positioned right now, because it sort of has the same match-ups as ANT, while worse against Death and Taxes and stronger against ANT and Elves.

However the problem that's occurring last time is the diversity of opponents' hate. ANT can handle multiple kinds of hate way better than TES, because with ANT you can cast those answers more reliably. Next to that ANTs sideboard holds the full 15 cards, which makes the deck more flexible in it's answers. I like a deck where I can actually cast Abrupt Decay, which is actually quite hard to execute with TES against wasteland.dec.

Currently I'm testing ANT (Grim Tutor variant) because TES wasn't reliable enough the past couple of tournaments and I haven't figured out an answer to today's euro-meta yet.

Lemnear

11-21-2013, 01:44 AM

Theoretically, TES is better positioned right now, because it sort of has the same match-ups as ANT, while worse against Death and Taxes and stronger against ANT and Elves.

However the problem that's occurring last time is the diversity of opponents' hate. ANT can handle multiple kinds of hate way better than TES, because with ANT you can cast those answers more reliably. Next to that ANTs sideboard holds the full 15 cards, which makes the deck more flexible in it's answers. I like a deck where I can actually cast Abrupt Decay, which is actually quite hard to execute with TES against wasteland.dec.

Currently I'm testing ANT (Grim Tutor variant) because TES wasn't reliable enough the past couple of tournaments and I haven't figured out an answer to today's euro-meta yet.

I'm still trying to figure out if the combination of hate like counter + discard + hatebears I had to face the whole BoM weekend out of the Sideboards is managable for ANY storm list.

Never lost to D&T with TES and i'm curious why you want to board Decays against Wasteland.dec. I even managed to find ways to gain an Edge against SFM->Batterskull to keep Goblins as an option in those matchups and added Telemin Performance as a Wish-target to the SB for the combo-mirror.

I still lack answers to the Tempo-archtypes with various hate :/

nevilshute

11-21-2013, 04:06 AM

Hey there,

I'm running the version without burning wishes and with AN in the sideboard. I'm also running 2x Pithing Needle in the sideboard, mainly to bring in against Jund to name Deathrite Shaman and Liliana. I'm heading to a large tournament this weekend and will expect there to be quite a few sneak and show decks.

My question is, do you think it's prudent to side in the two needles to name sneak attack? I know they won't be boarding out their show and tells and as such that will still be their most likely game plan against storm, but I still think it might catch them off guard. My worry is that it brings my number of cards to side in alarmingly high as I already have 1x Karakas and 3x Xantid Swarm to bring in against them.

I'd be tempted to bring out my two basics lands (or maybe 1 basic + 1 fetch) and then something like of 2x probe, 2x therapy. My mana base and sideboard look like this:

Sideboard:

3x Xantid Swarm
2x Massacre
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Pithing Needle
1x Karakas
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Echoing Truth
1x Ad Nauseam

Lands:
2x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island
1x Tropical Island
1x Island
1x Swamp
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Bloodstained Mire

Asthereal

11-21-2013, 04:37 AM

@Nevil: Don't worry too much about their win. Worry about Leyline of Sanctity. Last time I played against Sneak&Show that card completely nailed me, effectively stopping my discard spells, and I forgot to board in a Chain so my only wincon was EtW. And tokens are weak against Annihilator 6...

I'd recommend adding some number of Swarms and at least one Chain of Vapor, perhaps even two (if you have sideboard space for a second). Chain of Vapor at least can work as a storm engine. Pithing Needle only helps against one of their wincons, and it cannot help you go off. Better not use those.

bjholmes3

11-21-2013, 10:27 AM

Machahiko

11-21-2013, 11:07 AM

I think sideboarding guides that tell you what to take out and what to put in are always bad for the person learning how to play. How about a sideboarding guide that teaches people what to take out and what to put in depending on what they expect to face in games 2&3? Matchups could be gone through by telling what are popular and not so popular sideboard options in those decks?

Tammit67

11-21-2013, 02:41 PM

The last time I tinkered with ANT lists, and keeping track of matchups, I was about 35% against FoW decks, and about 55% against the format as a whole. I think the post is buried somewhere from late December 2012 or January 2013. Anyways, the DeathBlade lists were a real problem due to what you're describing. Maybe he's time to set aside ANT for a faster deck?

I've been beating the blue decks fine for now, but when the rest of them realize how potent any combination of two [counters + discard + permanent based hate] is against combo in general (and more specifically how TNN allows you to skimp on hedges in the non-combo matchups), I don't really want to be playing storm.

The goal for me is to play a deck that both cares very little about TNN but can navigate through the flurry of answers people are now starting to pack. AnT was my decision recently but after seeing Owen's sideboard I no longer want to interact along those axes round after round.

Lemnear

11-21-2013, 02:47 PM

I've been beating the blue decks fine for now, but when the rest of them realize how potent any combination of two [counters + discard + permanent based hate] is against combo in general (and more specifically how TNN allows you to skimp on hedges in the non-combo matchups), I don't really want to be playing storm.

The goal for me is to play a deck that both cares very little about TNN but can navigate through the flurry of answers people are now starting to pack. AnT was my decision recently but after seeing Owen's sideboard I no longer want to interact along those axes round after round.

I did for full 4 weeks now with TES and it's becoming a torture

Sloshthedark

11-21-2013, 05:12 PM

Can't see what's wrong with Turtenwalds build... I went 3-1 today losing to TNN esper deck with better SB than this, in fact I scooped to him to avoid draw in extra turns after I fucked up seriously with spell sequencing in suicide mode trying to win at all costs...should have won all of our 3 games I think ...

entreri_fans

11-21-2013, 09:13 PM

Updated post. Added "Less Common Options" in the cards section to include LDV and Wish. Also, started work on the matchups section, beginning with Elves. Things I want to include are what to expect, how to play around hate, and what to aim for with discard.

The primer is awesome! thx for your work bjholmes3!

as to the sideboard choice , there seems to be a minor mistake. we are not able to abrupt decay a omniscience:frown:

bjholmes3

11-21-2013, 09:23 PM

lol, oops, that was supposed to be in the Chain of Vapor section. Thanks for catching that.

entreri_fans

11-21-2013, 09:28 PM

:smile:

just thanks for carrying on the work, can't wait to see more matchups analysis +_+

cheerios

11-22-2013, 03:13 AM

alphastryk

11-22-2013, 12:59 PM

Snapcaster Mage when they attack with their Mage/Canonist :tongue:

While I think you were joking, is this completely crazy? Would Vendilion Clique be better since it doubles as disruption? (neither deals with Thalia of course)

Jonathan Alexander

11-22-2013, 01:23 PM

I have actually tried Clique and no, it is not good enough. Against blue decks, it's usually an inferior version of Meditate, where they counter it most of the time, only that it's not as impactful if it actually resolves. They also tend to leave in removal for Xantid Swarms. Against non-blue, how is it better than Massacre, Dread of Night, or even Sudden Shock? There are just way more elegant ways to do both jobs, and this deck is not desperately looking for a card to do these two at the same time.

DarkJester

11-22-2013, 01:24 PM

I don't think that Mr.Snappy was a joke. He has performed before and doubles as a business-spell when needed. Clique can disrupt, but not give you business. Snappy can.

Dark Ritual

11-22-2013, 03:44 PM

I don't think that Mr.Snappy was a joke. He has performed before and doubles as a business-spell when needed. Clique can disrupt, but not give you business. Snappy can.

I ran snapcaster before deathrite shaman was printed just like Emidln who pioneered the idea of snapcaster in ANT. Played 2 copies and it was quite fun when I went snapcaster in response crack 2 LED's, flashback ad nauseam with the floating mana. After deathrite snapcaster got shelved quite fast.

Sloshthedark

11-23-2013, 12:11 PM

While I think you were joking, is this completely crazy? Would Vendilion Clique be better since it doubles as disruption? (neither deals with Thalia of course)
SnapC wasnt much good to me except chumping a canonist g1 once...
Hmm I have 3 clique 2 karakas experiment on my mind for some time... Dont have the cliques yet...

SB strategy - Ill edit when to my computer, it's rather complicated

MTG Junkie

11-23-2013, 12:55 PM

Considering trying 3 Hymn To Turach in the board tonight for my local event.

Have you ever tryed it? How was it?

Jay_Gatz

11-23-2013, 01:14 PM

Playing a tempo card in a combo deck seems weak

MTG Junkie

11-23-2013, 02:21 PM

I don't think its a tempo card.
I feel like the card could be powerful against RUG. Everybody I play with knows my board strategy (Swarms/Silence) . Just thinking of different things to try out.

Iv also considered Jona's strategy against RUG. His strategy is to board in more Tendrils complemented by Carpet of Flowers and aTop.
That way you just worry about Flusterstorms and Stifle.

Zombie

11-23-2013, 02:40 PM

One thing that's always seemed odd about the million win cons plan is that we play LED. Or is the main plan to just cantrip float them anyway?

MTG Junkie

11-23-2013, 02:54 PM

One thing that's always seemed odd about the million win cons plan is that we play LED. Or is the main plan to just cantrip float them anyway?

Yeah LED does get in the way of that plan a little. So does Infernal Tutor. I'd probably trim those down when boarding. Going all in on a Tutor and LED is not always the greatest against them anyways.

bjholmes3

11-23-2013, 04:10 PM

Hymn for us is meh because we don't necessarily want card advantage from our discard; we want to a.) see their hand, and b.) get rid of very specific threats, neither of which does Hymn typically allow us to do.

Asthereal

11-23-2013, 06:52 PM

(About Hymn to Tourach:)

Playing a tempo card in a combo deck seems weak
Why do so many people mistake card advantage with tempo?
Card advantage is an entirely different thing. Actually they are often opposites.

Tempo example (wacky Bant against Burn):
T1: Forest, cast Noble Hierarch.
T1: Draw, Mountain, cast Goblin Guide - opp responds: Force of Will that Guide.
T2: Draw, City of Traitors, cast Garruk Wildspeaker, untap both lands, cast Tarmogoyf.
That's tempo. Using accellerating cards or free cards to develop your board and expand your resources, while preventing the opponent from developing his board and/or denying him his resources.

Hymn to Tourach is a very NON-tempo card.
Hymn example (Eva Green against Zoo):
T1. Swamp, Dark Ritual, Hypnotic Specter.
T1. Draw, fetch Mountain, Lightning Bolt that Hyppie.
T2. Draw, fetch Bayou, cast Hymn to Tourach. Zoo discards two cards.
T2. Draw, play Savannah, cast Tarmogoyf.
Situation is now: Both have three cards in hand. Eva Green player has a board of two lands, Zoo player has two lands and a big creature. So, casting the Hymn was loss of tempo (he let the opponent develop his board more, while not doing so himself). The turn one play from the Eva player was a tempo play though (accellerating into a serious CMC3 threat). The turn one play by Zoo shows why such a play can sometimes backfire.

Tempo cards:
- Submerge!!
- Force of Will!!
- Pyrokinesis!!
- Mox Diamond &Chrome Mox!!
- Dark Ritual (if used properly)
- Mana accelleration creatures (Hierarch, Deathrite, Zenith for Arbor)
- Mana denial cards that cost little mana to play/use
- Tangle Wire
- Daze on the play

Non-tempo cards:
- Any discard spell
- Cantrips, SDT, Sylvan Library
- Daze on the draw (slows your own development down too much)

Tempo simply means "who has the initiative?". Playing on tempo too much runs the risk of running "out of gas". This could give the opponent time to recover, take over the initiative, and often win the game. That's why playing a tempo deck is quite hard.

(I'll post this in the article & discussion section as well. That's where it belongs.)

bjholmes3

11-23-2013, 08:12 PM

Slowly updating the guide (link: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?11184-Deck-ANT-(Ad-Nauseam-Tendrils)&p=767273&viewfull=1#post767273), be sure to take a look at it. There are a few matchups that I feel a little iffy on, because I mostly play against Death&Taxes, ANT, Elves, and swamp.dec. I'll do my best to write something for these, but I'm the scribe, not the expert. :)

warfordium

11-24-2013, 03:38 AM

brief report: just top 8'd sdematt's legacy classic, falling to the man himself in the quarters. 3-1-1 in the swiss. seems i lost my notes so i'll get this on "paper" quickly.

Maindeck

2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta

4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Chrome Mox

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Preordain

1 Lim-Dûl's Vault
4 Infernal Tutor

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
1 Ad Nauseam

Sideboard

1 Empty the Warrens
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Massacre
2 Dread of Night
2 Carpet of Flowers
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapour

R1) vs D0LPHY (BG Pox).

lose the die roll.

G1 his t1: land, mox diamond, sylvan library, pass.
my t1: rip AdN. probe, petal, DR, DR, Chrome Mox, respond to trigger with AdN from twenty…yeah.

G2 i also go off my turn 2 or turn 3 on the draw. he kept thought seize, hymn, decay and 4 lands (including wasteland). he seizes away IT (i think?) t1 but leaves me with therapy. i blind name hymn with therapy my t1 and hit. lost my notes but it was another early ad nauseam from 18 after his t3 factory swing and thats it.

1-0 (2-0)

R2) vs BrettF (TES) (Brett, feel free to chime in here, this memory is hazy).

G1) win the roll. probe him without therapy, see a silence i have to deal with. dig next turn and find the duress, take the silence, then go off with DRit into CRit into another Ad Nauseam from 16 this time, get there.

G2) this one goes a bit longer as he keeps the double-cantrip hand. i think i take his only ritual off my duress then proceed to sculpt. he does a little digging as well and finds 12 goblins. i take a hit, he rips up hand (blind therapies away 2x CRit, leaving me with island, USea, DRit, and PiF. rip ponder, see LED as card #3 and pop LED for RRR alongside BBB from the ritual and empty my graveyard into a lethal tendrils, all from that little last B.

2-0 (4-0)

R3) vs Doug on Affinity.

win the roll.

G1) T1 duress takes his plating. he lands skirge, memnite, signal pest, opal t1. cute. i dig on my t2, take a hit, fire off an AdN from 16, loop through PiF and thats that.

G2) he leads on den, drum, ornithopter. i probe and see Canonist, den, and tomb. totally reasonable 6, but i have 5 storm and a tutor on the stack with BBBRRR floating following a brainstorm. feel AdN has been above average for me up to this point and i have all 4 big drops in the deck, so i just make 12 goblins and pass. he plays canonist, has to chump with it, the ornithopter, and a freshly played memnite on my attack—after his next draw its all over.

3-0 (6-0)

R4) vs Trent on Shardless BUG.

i have a sinking feeling because this one is still tough as a still-learning storm player—unlike patriot or RUG, i don't get enough of a chance to playtest this matchup and the other pilot i keep meeting competitively with this deck has a hex on me…luckily i probably don't need more than a point from the next two rounds to make top 8.

lose the roll.

G1) i take his force on t1 with duress off a petal after probe-ponder, a few turns later he taps his DRS and his shardless agent (which hit a visions) t4 to attack me to 16 so i decide its AN time having made a land drop and checking his hand with a therapy or duress (i forget which). Infernal tutor does the last 2 to kill me after 4 rituals and an LED, needed a petal or chrome mox and a petal was the next card.

G2) i think i kept fetch, brainstorm, carpet, ad nauseam, swarm, trop on 6 on the play. hold up brainstorm but his t1 DRS lets me rip ponder on my turn. pondered first, kept up brainstorm to hide ad nauseam. rip a second carpet T2 and play it, trigger for swarm and play that. he shocks me a couple times and lands a goyf, have to go for it next turn from 13—another AdN brick.

2-1 (6-2)

R5) James (TNN Bant)

watched him play and sideboard against Trent after my quick win in R3, so i know what he's on. quad RIP and flusterstorm in the board, maindeck Teeg, GSZ, and thalia… he offers the ID and i can't really turn it down given his good breakers and my dubious matchup.

ID (6-1-1)

Top 8 rolls around—the bottom X-2 who valiantly fought back to 3-2 after losing the first 2 rounds misses out on breakers by 4%.

Top 8) vs sdematt on Pavlic Junk.

lose the roll.

G1) this one is infuriating, not because i have to battle my pal Matt, but because after surviving his thoughtseize and having enough mana and a clear line to play around his double DRS, i brick on 4-5 cantrips and 13 cards to hit any business. on my last turn before succumbing to DRS shocks and Dryad Arbor beats (ugh) i play out petal x2, drit x2, crit x 2, and LED before scooping 'em up.

at least i'm on the play G2 against his board of pure hate. teeg, thalia, thoughtseize, hymn, rest in peace…

my 7 has no interaction with both tendrils and PiF in hand with no brainstorm.

my 6 has a trop, no black source, and no brainstorm.

my 5 has no mana sources.

my 4 has therapy, dread of night, misty, and island. i have a prayer. last time i face matt in t8 his mull to 4 against my Omnitell got there with the exact perfect sequence (having missed my crucial 3rd land drop on that occasion, even after pondering)—maybe its time for the tables to turn?

i tank on what to play first (since i'm dead to wasteland) and decide to blind therapy him for thoughtseize off a fetched USea. i hit, and see 2 lands, teeg, decay, thalia. he plays DRS and passes. ok, might survive this! draw ponder, ponder into chain of vapor, Drit, IT. draw the chain and play dread of night. he plays teeg and passes. i draw the rit and pass. he abrupt decays the dread and plays thalia. shit. right about now i realize i should have held the dread of night. i draw the IT and he plays goyf with DRS up. he shocks me, then swings for 8—i'm dead on board. rip a DRit and the day is one.

Magic Gods, you owe me consecutive T1s against matt.

more than double my money and pick up a badlands for 6th!

props to ad nauseam. i'd love to make this more viable Ad Nauseam deck—maybe go to 2 chrome mox and play the rain of filth? i was spoiled by TinFins but i just want to go off faster and faster. maybe i should just try TES…

props to Matt for bringing unbridled combo hate and winning his own tournament…again.

props to Gitaxian Probe and Cabal Therapy (together but also alone), and to cracking LED with probe on the stack to squeeze out the extra point of storm when necessary.

slops to…variance?

mishima_kazuya

11-24-2013, 04:40 PM

Broke a 1 month Magic slump by switching back to an unfair deck.

Went 4-0-2 in swiss in a local 54 person tournament. Won my quarterfinal match and then split top 4 prize.

I think 75 is almost identical to Mark Tocco's. My sideboard has not changed in months, since I have not been playing AnT that much.

2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Lim-Dul's Vault
1 Past in Flames
1 Ad Nauseum
1 Tendrils of Agony

Sideboard:
3 Dark Confidant
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Dread of Night

Round 1:
2-1 Stoneblade
Round 2:
2-0 Jund
Round 3:
2-1 Merfolk
Round 4:
2-1 Jund
Round 5:
Draw with GBW Junk.
Played the match anyways and we drew after he Zenithed for Gaddock Teeg(with no other pressure) since I wanted to get food instead of playing another 20 minutes of me digging for removal for Teeg while he tried to assemble 20 damage as I sculpted my hand.
Round 6:
Draw with ???

Top 8:
2-0 same Junk opponent

Hatebears are much harder to play around than counterspells and I would actually rather play against Tempo/Uxx Midrange all day instead of hatebears that make life miserable.

Higgs

11-24-2013, 06:32 PM

Why Badlands over Bayour or vice-versa? Is it personal preference generally?

Jay_Gatz

11-24-2013, 06:41 PM

(About Hymn to Tourach:)

Why do so many people mistake card advantage with tempo?
Card advantage is an entirely different thing. Actually they are often opposites.

Tempo example (wacky Bant against Burn):
T1: Forest, cast Noble Hierarch.
T1: Draw, Mountain, cast Goblin Guide - opp responds: Force of Will that Guide.
T2: Draw, City of Traitors, cast Garruk Wildspeaker, untap both lands, cast Tarmogoyf.
That's tempo. Using accellerating cards or free cards to develop your board and expand your resources, while preventing the opponent from developing his board and/or denying him his resources.

Hymn to Tourach is a very NON-tempo card.
Hymn example (Eva Green against Zoo):
T1. Swamp, Dark Ritual, Hypnotic Specter.
T1. Draw, fetch Mountain, Lightning Bolt that Hyppie.
T2. Draw, fetch Bayou, cast Hymn to Tourach. Zoo discards two cards.
T2. Draw, play Savannah, cast Tarmogoyf.
Situation is now: Both have three cards in hand. Eva Green player has a board of two lands, Zoo player has two lands and a big creature. So, casting the Hymn was loss of tempo (he let the opponent develop his board more, while not doing so himself). The turn one play from the Eva player was a tempo play though (accellerating into a serious CMC3 threat). The turn one play by Zoo shows why such a play can sometimes backfire.

Tempo cards:
- Submerge!!
- Force of Will!!
- Pyrokinesis!!
- Mox Diamond &Chrome Mox!!
- Dark Ritual (if used properly)
- Mana accelleration creatures (Hierarch, Deathrite, Zenith for Arbor)
- Mana denial cards that cost little mana to play/use
- Tangle Wire
- Daze on the play

Non-tempo cards:
- Any discard spell
- Cantrips, SDT, Sylvan Library
- Daze on the draw (slows your own development down too much)

Tempo simply means "who has the initiative?". Playing on tempo too much runs the risk of running "out of gas". This could give the opponent time to recover, take over the initiative, and often win the game. That's why playing a tempo deck is quite hard.

(I'll post this in the article & discussion section as well. That's where it belongs.)
Tempo isn't just board presence, cards mana and life all factor in.

Asthereal

11-25-2013, 03:37 AM

Tempo isn't just board presence, cards mana and life all factor in.
The number of cards in hand matter only if the tempo player runs out of gas. Tempo deck usually also try to deny the opponent's mana development, which makes cards in hand very irrelevant. What good is a Jace if you are unable to cast it?

Mana I explained already (developing resources in order to expand board presence / denying your opponent's mana development to stop him from expanding his board presence). Very important part of tempo.

Life always matters if you are playing a fair deck. An opponent being low on life means every threat might be lethal. That's of course a good situation for a tempo deck, because running out of gas will then be less likely to cause you to lose the game. Any simple Lightning Bolt you draw will be a winner. Perhaps a Delver also (evasion).

nevilshute

11-25-2013, 03:41 AM

So I played in a 137 man tournament. I ended up with a quite lacklustre 5-3 record losing to Shardless BUG, mono blue Omniclash and Dark Maverick and winning against Esper Stoneblade, Death and Taxes, Grixis Delver, Sneak and Show and Dead Guy Ale.

In one game, the one against Dark Maverick (we were both 4-2 at the time and in contention for top-16 and a couple of fetchlands as prizes) I had a bit of a mulligan dilemma in a game I ended up losing. Here's the scenario:

I win the die roll and we both know what the other is playing as it's a guy from my LGS. He only ever plays Maverick and is very profecient with it. We shuffle up and I see a 7 that's just unkeepable. Don't remember it exactly but it was a sure toss. He keeps his 7. When I get my 6 they look like this: 2x Dark Ritual, 2x Lion's Eye Diamond, 1x Infernal Tutor, 1x Cabal Ritual. Do you keep or do you go down to 5?

I ended up keeping at got duly punished as I didn't see a land or petal on my first draw and he dropped a Thalia before I got my second. Eventually it got embarassing as I didn't see a land for another 3 drawsteps and by then he had full control with thalia and a couple of deathrite shamans.

My reasoning for keeping were: a) I was 90 % he didn't play discard preboard. b) He's insta dead if I see a land or petal. c) I didn't have confindence that I'd get a hand of 5 that could do enough.

I was tired as it was the 7th round and all (this was my first big tournament, so not exactly experienced at playing this many rounds) and, seeing how things played out, I felt like kicking myself for not mulliganing again. Now, in the clear light of day I'm not 100 % sure though. Could any of you try and put yourselves in my shoes and analyze the situation? :)

For reference, here's the list I played:

4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Infernal Tutor
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Duress
1x Thoughtseize
1x Grim Tutor
1x Tendrils of Agony
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Gitaxian Probe
2x Preordain
1x Past in Flames
1x Empty the Warrens
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Bloodstained Mire
2x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island
1x Tropical Island
1x Island
1x Swamp

3x Xantid Swarm
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Pithing Needle
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Massacre
1x Karakas
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Echoing Truth

Asthereal

11-25-2013, 03:55 AM

Why Badlands over Bayour or vice-versa? Is it personal preference generally?
Usually one plays either Tropical + Badlands, or Bayou + Volcanic. This has something to do with optimizing your fetchlands, which becomes much easier if you arrange your duals like this. I don't think it matters which combination you pick: you usually want 4x Delta and X blue and X black fetch. If you play Volcanic + Tropical, your black fetch cannot find both of these. Also if you play Bayou + Badlands, your blue fetch cannot find both of them.

Tropical + Badlands means you play 4x Delta, 2-3x Scalding Tarn, 1-2x Verdant Catacombs
Volcanic + Bayou means you play 4x Delta, 2-3x Misty Rainforest, 1-2x Bloodstained Mire

I cannot think of a reason to choose either over the other. So I guess this depends on what you have available, or which pictures you like best. :wink:

Dia_Bot

11-25-2013, 04:41 AM

I win the die roll and we both know what the other is playing as it's a guy from my LGS. He only ever plays Maverick and is very profecient with it. We shuffle up and I see a 7 that's just unkeepable. Don't remember it exactly but it was a sure toss. He keeps his 7. When I get my 6 they look like this: 2x Dark Ritual, 2x Lion's Eye Diamond, 1x Infernal Tutor, 1x Cabal Ritual. Do you keep or do you go down to 5?

There is about 35% that you will draw either petal or a land on your turn (there is also 7% chance to draw a probe giving you an additional draw). Since he knows what your playing and kept his 7 chances are he has a Thalia. This means you only have one drawstep to draw that IMS.
Personally I think I would have mulliganed since you don't autolose if you don't combo off before he makes his second land drop (masssacre + swamp i very fine in giving you more time).
This said I may be biased on this subject because I have been punished for greedy keeps way to much in the past :tongue:.

PS: how did the Pneedles in the sideboard work out for you? It's a card I wanted to include as a one or two-off for a long time (for shutting off SDT and DRS mostly) but never got arround to it.

nevilshute

11-25-2013, 06:06 AM

There is about 35% that you will draw either petal or a land on your turn (there is also 7% chance to draw a probe giving you an additional draw). Since he knows what your playing and kept his 7 chances are he has a Thalia. This means you only have one drawstep to draw that IMS.
Personally I think I would have mulliganed since you don't autolose if you don't combo off before he makes his second land drop (masssacre + swamp i very fine in giving you more time).
This said I may be biased on this subject because I have been punished for greedy keeps way to much in the past :tongue:.

PS: how did the Pneedles in the sideboard work out for you? It's a card I wanted to include as a one or two-off for a long time (for shutting off SDT and DRS mostly) but never got arround to it.

Thanks for the feedback.

Regarding the Pithing Needle it's hard to say, really. I played against Deathrite Shamans only twice and didn't meet any SDT. Against Dark Maverick I didn't bring in the needles as I didn't know how many deathrites he ran, plus Massacre had them covered (was my reasoning). The one matchup where I did bring them in was against Shardless BUG. I got one in game 2 and it drew a force of will from my opponent. But that was very situational. He was on only 1 land. I had just Thoughtseized him, he brainstormed in response (and apparently hid his Deathrite on top) and once it had resolved he showed me a hand of: 2x Force of Will, 2x Ancestral Vision, 1x Hymn to Tourach, 1x Tarmogoyf... I took the hymn. I then passed the turn and he drew and played DRS. I drew a Pithing Needle and played it and he instant forced, pithing Vision.

I think I'll keep them in for now though.

Asgar

11-25-2013, 07:39 AM

Hey - the Primer is very cool, i'd Change 2 Minor things:
1st Elves can ne an Even MU depending on their Build. When they have Thorn and therapy and possible T2-3 kill it can nebe a very harsh MU.

2nd you should also explain the Tutor Chain wird Rituals, too (Cabal, infernal for Cabal, Cabal, infernal for Cabal, Cabal, Infernal/Burning wish for Tendrils)

bjholmes3

11-25-2013, 01:44 PM

I'm a little confused about what you're saying in that second point. Is that assuming you have 3+ Tutors in hand? If so, I don't think that would crop up enough to merit mention in a primer. I will some more under the Tutor section, though, including some tricks I forgot to mention.

Sloshthedark

11-25-2013, 02:48 PM

Mindlash

11-26-2013, 02:52 AM

100% keeper, all lands, PIF and petal are sure kill, you are very well set up to kill through Thalia... bad luck? happens... I lost with a no lander against a mull 4 into Mishras factory-go... 10 turns later... you know the story... no lands next 5 cards at least.... I wont regret such keep...

I somehow miss two storm on the PiF kill but with 15 lands, 4 petals and 4 probes still in the deck I would have kept it too.

bjholmes3

11-26-2013, 12:04 PM

Mindlash

11-26-2013, 01:20 PM

I can't play this deck on Cockatrice anymore. :cry: I'm tilting harder than the Tower of Pisa in an earthquake. But, fear not, I'll still continue to update the primer as info becomes available. Take pride in the fact that we don't care about the TNN "menace" that is mining salt from the delicious tears of all the whiners out there! We'll be DTB again in no time!

Sadly I have to disagree...TNN reduces the needed sideboardslots for "fair decks" against their likes...leaving them with more slots for the combo matchup like in the winning Patriot deck from DC feat. 4 x Meddling Mage :-/ We'll see how it plays out.

MTG Junkie

11-26-2013, 02:06 PM

Iv just been happy that TTN has been replacing VC in people's lists.

Mindlash

11-26-2013, 02:50 PM

Iv just been happy that TTN has been replacing VC in people's lists.

Well thats positive as well as is the absence of Stifles. But you need something against these 4 Meddling Mages. I have one slot open in my sideboard (single Tormod's Crypt). So I hope going up to 4 DoN will do the trick for me :)
At least it covers another DtB ;) And DoN was a nice card for me against DnT lately. Covering my flanks while being abused as additional storm with Chain of Vapor for the lethal Tendrils was just what I needed in that moment.
On the other hand...Timo showed some interest in Toxic Deluge on our way back home...so let us see what happens :)

Machahiko

11-27-2013, 03:03 AM

GexxX

11-27-2013, 04:09 AM

Hi,

Because of no silence or chants in this deck, I'd be interested to hear some suggestions on how to play against vendilion clique (with possibly active karakas) or an active Sensei's Divining Top. Should I board Xantid Swarm in in these matches where you'd possibly want to have your opponent silenced? If miracles poses no clock whatsoever I've been able to overrun them first with discard, then playing infernal tutor breaking led's and discarding PiF or having a tutor of my own on top of my library while I have SDT in play. My deck has only one PiF and one SDT so chances of this actually happening are slim and you need a lot of time to find either one of these.

Any better ideas or hints?

To be honest I have no Idea how Silence/Chant can help you against Clique. What can help is discarding it. And Xantid Swarm only protects your discard, but does not handle Clique either. Miracles requires Abrupt Decay if you ask me. What is your complete list, what are the exact matchups you are concerned about? It is not a simple Deck and there are few simple answers regarding any questions about ANT.

To sum things up at least a little:

Decks that play clique are Miracles and UW Stoneblade afaik. Both of these will pack a huge counterwall as their clock is not the fastest. Miracles has the Top/CB combo to make our lives a little more miserable leading to you, boarding in Decays. I'd also add swarm as speed is not your #1 priority in these matchups, going off safely is more common in my experience unless you have a fast EtW. 12 Goblins are most likely winning the game!
Sensei's Divining Top + Your cantrips help with handling clique in a way that the opponent does not have ultimate control of what your hand consists try to keep redundant pieces of the combo in your hand, float the others to hide information on your gameplan progress and to keep them from getting stripped off your grip.
I usually tend to rate my opening hand with what I want to do and what I need to do in order to win, maybe that will help you create an edge in your early game and try to keep rethinking your strategy with EVERY card you see (Probe/Duress/Therapy lets you see the opponents' cards too). Information is vital.

Good day and keep counting to ten.

Machahiko

11-27-2013, 07:19 AM

I'm playing Timo Schunemann's list with minor change, here's a reminder if you don't remember what he was playing:

1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Preordain
3 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Ponder

Sideboard:
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Xantid Swarm
4 Dread of Night
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Abrupt Decay

So the change is -1 Tormod, +1 Dread of Night. Not sure about would I want to play tormod, hurkyl's recall or dread of night.

Silence helps against an active sensei's divining top, against clique you'll still need two business spells in hand. I find it really hard / impossible to discard Clique before they reach the 3 mana, after that it forces me to find two ways to win in hand before I can try to beat his hand. I'm not really comfortable with trying to win with EtW, since they'll usually leave in EE, Terminus or both. My sideboarding plan against Miracles has been +Decays, -2 Preordain, -1 Cabal Ritual. If I would take Swarms in, I'd go -1 probe, -2 duress.

Looooooooo

11-27-2013, 08:01 AM

Just a random question: is 14 lands foolish with 4 Petals 4 LED and 4 of each Ritual?
Maybe SBing in my Karakas if i SB out some of the previous mentioned?

- L

Asthereal

11-27-2013, 10:42 AM

Just a random question: is 14 lands foolish with 4 Petals 4 LED and 4 of each Ritual?
Maybe SBing in my Karakas if i SB out some of the previous mentioned?

- L
It's not wrong per se. We used to play 14 lands in the old ANT with Mystical Tutor. It seemed fine to me.
With 14-15 cantrips, it's not like you'll have trouble finding a second or a third one of you really need it.
Of course against Canadian Thresh it's nice to have extra land, but even with 14 lands and no basics I managed to beat Thresh.
I must say though, that all lists I played with 14 lands contained at least two Chrome Moxen...

Luklinda

11-27-2013, 11:32 AM

On the other hand...Timo showed some interest in Toxic Deluge on our way back home...so let us see what happens :)

I still think virtue's ruin is better - because who cares about non-white creatures?

Mindlash

11-27-2013, 11:43 AM

I still think virtue's ruin is better - because who cares about non-white creatures?

Only situation I can think about is that one match where I nearly died to two Phyrixian Revoker after the rest of the DnT deck was dust due to Dread of Night :D

Koby

11-27-2013, 12:19 PM

Only situation I can think about is that one match where I nearly died to two Phyrixian Revoker after the rest of the DnT deck was dust due to Dread of Night :D

Yea that's a big drag. In this case, Massacre is better than both Dread of Night and Virtue's Ruin. Ruin is better vs GW/x decks, while Massacre is better vs non-Gaddock Teeg lists.

Tammit67

11-27-2013, 01:04 PM

Yea that's a big drag. In this case, Massacre is better than both Dread of Night and Virtue's Ruin. Ruin is better vs GW/x decks, while Massacre is better vs non-Gaddock Teeg lists.

I've had too many games where death and taxes simply doesnt play a plains for me to want massacre :(

Griselpuff

11-27-2013, 02:47 PM

Hey all, new to Storm and I'm wondering where I can find some SB guides for ANT. The TES thread is really well updated by Bryant, but I haven't seen any similar thing for ANT (I suppose there are more variations to ANT).

What is usually taken out vs. tempo, control, D&T and combo?

Also, I've read all of Carsten's and Ari's articles, are there any other good articles I should read?

Thanks all!

FWIW, I think Massacre is where it's at right now. It makes Ad Nauseam worse and doesn't work vs. Gaddock Teeg, but Teeg is actually not all that popular whereas Meddling Mage is very popular. Regarding the Plains issue vs. Death and Taxes, I find it hard to believe that there will be a lot of games where they get by without playing a Plains. Dread of Night is certainly better there, but pretty poor vs. UWR.

bjholmes3

11-27-2013, 03:29 PM

Part of my work on the primer is to include sideboard strategy, but the problem is, our sideboards can vary a lot, and there are several acceptable variations, which makes it unreasonable to make a Sideboarding guide. I do, however, include in each matchup guidelines on what to expect, what to bring in, and what to take out of the deck.

bjholmes3

12-02-2013, 12:40 AM

Appy-Polly-Logies for the double posting, but some things need to happen. One, we need a mod/admin/whatever do something about the OP to the thread. If Indiana Jones was looking for the ancient history of the deck, then we'd be dandy, but for new players, a good primer is just about the best thing you can get for them, and I aim for this thread's OP to be the greatest standalone resource for ANT on the web.

Second, I need people to post some tourny reports/matchup experiences so I can add more perspectives, especially pertaining to decks like Patriot and Blade, with which I've less experience than wanted (haven't seen one TNN on Trice yet; everyone is too busy playing "Decks I've never seen before" and "CASUAL LEGACY", whatever the hell that means).

Third, I want a nicer banner for the primer, including that fancy FNM tendrils artwork. I'd be very appreciative to anyone who would put together such a thing.

Jay_Gatz

12-02-2013, 01:34 PM

But the fnm tendrils is so ugly :(

afb0032

12-02-2013, 03:54 PM

Thanks bjholmes for working on the primer. It is looking great! Any thoughts about including a sentence or two on grim tutor in the less common options section?

bjholmes3

12-02-2013, 05:29 PM

Ah, of course! I'll include SDT as well, some people are using it, or so I've heard.

Jonathan Alexander

12-02-2013, 07:04 PM

It'd be pretty cool if one of the mods could agree to just open a new thread. Having the primer on page 290-whatever kind of sucks. I haven't read it because I'm too lazy to look for it, I can only imagine how it is for someone who wants to read up on the deck but is then presented a post from five years ago.
Also, just call the deck Storm. The lines are blurred, and it doesn't really matter anyway.

I hope something will be done about this soon and I can conveniently read the primer.

bjholmes3

12-02-2013, 07:10 PM

I'm also hoping for a new thread. This can be archived in the old threads section, should there be a need to do so, but all the work I did on the primer is useless if it stays on page 294, because the only people to ever see it will be those who don't need it in the first place, lol.

As for the name, I maintain that calling the deck ANT is probably for the best. It carries a unique identity that makes the deck immediately identifiable, just like other well-known yet not quite descriptive names like Patriot or Death & Taxes. Storm has a lot of variants, all of which are very significantly different, and I feel that this brew deserves its own special name.

Koby

12-02-2013, 08:29 PM

Start a new thread with the primer posted in New/Developing. Once it's posted, message a global mod (I'm Vintage) to archive this one and move the new thread to Established.

bjholmes3

12-02-2013, 09:37 PM

It's done. Any further commentary regarding the primer, and really, the deck, would be best suited in the new thread.

12-03-2013, 12:03 PM

Continue any discussion on this deck here. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27161-Deck-ANT-%28Ad-Nauseam-Tendrils%29-Storm-Combo)