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Pulp_Fiction
03-13-2009, 12:57 AM
The W is in the board for Stax and Moon variants. But good call, I was just going through my typical combo SB cards when I built the SB and totally forgot about Cleanfall. I ran it a grand total of 1 time in my wishboard for TES.

Now the plains in the SB really has no relevance, BUT, since I run 3 Chant, white is way more likely to be the color imprinted on Chrome Mox which does have relevance.

On another note, I am not sure I am going to stick with a single Rebuild in the SB, I would kind of like a single Extirpate but it just seems kind of lame. Perhaps Rebuild really is the right call?

Nihil Credo
03-13-2009, 09:55 AM
While we're at it, Tempest of Light > Cleanfall if you don't run Burning Wish. Or Evermind.

Fossil4182
03-13-2009, 03:36 PM
Just a question, but what is the optimal amount of lands ANT looks to run? I know that ANT looks to start the combo between turns 2-3. So that being said, does the deck need to run more than 15 lands? Between 4 Lotus Petals, 4 LEDs and 3-4 Moxen is more than 15 lands necessary? I know each build is going to be different, but I would assume that most builds will have 14-15 lands or is that too much?

Additionally, has anyone found it helpful to run 3 Chrome Mox and 1 Mox Diamond? I ask because it would seem helpful after you use Ad Nauseam to be able to turn those lands for something worth while and single Mox for any color doesn't seem to be a bad idea.

Dark_Cynic87
03-15-2009, 07:34 PM
Using Mox Diamond is a risk that shouldn't be taken. When you play ad nauseam you don't need to worry about the lands; they will never have an effect on how many cards you flip. They are irrelevant unless you haven't made your land drop. Playing Mox Diamond is a dead card where Chrome Mox wouldn't be the extreme majority of the time pre-nauseam and no better than Chrome Mox #4 post-ad nauseam.

The land count in my list ranges from 14 to 17 depending on how many colors and basics I play. Right now, my list is 5-c AdN Hybrid, and I run 16 lands due to Blood Moon in my meta. I added another basic to get around it easier.

Pce,

--DC

zimmerbloke
03-15-2009, 09:17 PM
I was looking over the decklists from the GP (http://www.thestarkingtonpost.com/?p=463) and I didn't see a single copy of Doomsday in any of the Day 2 lists.

For those of you who played ANT or DDFT at the GP, did you play Doomsday and was it effective? I know its inclusion has been debated, but I've been liking it in testing and wasn't sure if this was a strike against including it in ANT.

johanessen
03-15-2009, 09:43 PM
Nauseam won the february and march league in barcelona spain (~80people)

Last list used:

4 Underground Sea
2 City of Traitors
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
3 Mox Diamond
3 Cabal ritual
2 Sensei’s divining top
2 Tendrils of Agony
2 Ad Nauseam
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Duress
4 Pact of Negation
1 Chain of vapor

Side

3 Orim’s Chant
3 Hurkyls recall
3 Angel’s Grace
3 Slaughter Pact
1 Tundra
1 Wipe Away
1 Echoing Truth

won all rounds 2-0 (7 rounds+top8) except quarterfinals for 2-1 against zoo.

Pulp_Fiction
03-15-2009, 09:46 PM
Most people who complain about Doomsday being bad have probably just read that from other people and restate it. Others have put together the decks and tried it out and thought it terrible. Doomsday is a seriously skill testing card. It is really fucking hard to play right, read emidln's pages on Doomsday stacks and test it out. It takes lots and lots of goldfishing to figure it out.

I really prefer the hybrid decks since I hate going down to low life and attempting to win VIA IGG. I still play straight up ANT because I feel it is more consistent and Pithing Needle on Top can often times have a serious effect on the game. But, in terms of beating CB and Thresh in general, I think Doomsday is a little more effective.

emidln
03-15-2009, 10:24 PM
I went 5-3-1 day one playing the hybrid (2 Doomsday, 1 Ad Nauseam, 4 Duress, 4 Chant md with 4 Pyroblast, 1 Doomsday sb for the control matchup) and was extremely unhappy with the Ad Nauseam in my maindeck/choices that it forced upon me. I started several matches down 0-1 because Ad Nauseam compelled me to combo turn one against an unknown opponent (holding the hand for protection isn't an option when Thoughtseize/Duress/Stifle/Daze/Spell/Chalice of the Void/Trinisphere can all wreck your hand if an opponent gets a land drop). The extra acceleration and lessened protection and cantrips was problematic throughout the day, and being forced to devote sideboard slots to lands against control was a waste of sideboard space. I played against 6 CB decks, 1 Team America, 1 Landstill, and 1 Eva Green day one and every round would have been happier playing straight DDFT.

For what it's worth, I was in contention until round 8 with no byes where I lost to T00L playing Team America with my draw coming in round 9 once I stopped caring. Doomsday was ridiculous all weekend and let me combo out several times in extremely poor situations, often through random hate. I won more games by playing acceleration and looping Sensei's Divining Tops before playing a storm spell than I won by resolving Ad Nauseam (although it wasn't due to a lack of trying).

I don't know if anyone else played Doomsday, but I noticed quite a few people watching my matches and I fielded a ton of questions about the card. Doomsday was instrumental in winning postboard games against blue decks (letting me fight their hate with additional protection while largely ignoring my life total) and even pulled through in the grinders against strange decks like Pox and Stax w/SoR+Null Rod main. I am rather curious if any other Ad Nauseam players ran into even half as many blue decks as I did on the day. I noticed from the TES thread people claiming they lost to jank like Affinity, Goyf Sligh, and Goblins while I couldn't buy a match against a straight aggro deck.

I know that I will not personally be playing Ad Nauseam in my maindeck for FT until Counterbalance or Force of Will get banned. IMO, if you want to play a deck with Ad Nauseam in it, you should seriously look into a TES derivative with Empty the Warrens in an attempt to simply do something -- anything -- before CB and friends hit the table.

e_hawk77
03-16-2009, 02:44 AM
Like i said my matches at the gp were: merfolk, uwg thresh, urb painter, uwg thresh, ubg thresh, ichorid, enchantress, ubg thresh, ubg thresh. I went 3-3 vs the decks with counterbalances(all the thresh decks and the urb painter). I was in contension for day 2 until the last round. My list is posted just a bit up and the way i beat the counterbalance decks was to duress then just go balls to the walls and just see what happened. The thresh decks only run force and daze usually to back up their counterbalance so if you can clear a hand then you should be okay. If counterbalance shows up then you maybe screwed but hey it is the best you can hope for.

Pulp_Fiction
03-16-2009, 03:41 AM
I found a new SB card that I am not sure if it is worthy of consideration or not:

Virtue's Ruin 2B
Sorcery
Destroy all white creatures

Perhaps a mix of 2x Slaughter Pact and 1x of these? No testing but I have seen Teeg/Cannonist and True Believer on the board at the same time. Not sure if a Perish for white creatures is necessary, but its certainly interesting.

Koby
03-16-2009, 12:00 PM
Massacre performs the same function against those creatures and is free to play under that same condition. Generally you would want to play Badlands or Underground sea naturally to take advantage of it. I guess it depends on how badly the white weenies effect your metagame.

kicks_422
03-16-2009, 12:24 PM
Massacre doesn't kill Gaddock Teeg though.

Shriekmaw
03-16-2009, 12:31 PM
I think Jamie Parke's list (U/B) was very interesting with no LED and no Infernal Tutors. He managed just to lose 3 matches through the 2 days of the Grand Prix. I think maybe consistency is better than overral speed of the deck for future tournaments.


What do you guys think?

e_hawk77
03-16-2009, 02:41 PM
Where can i find this list? This is how i been boarding recently vs counterbalance based decks. Im boarding in 4 pact of negations, 1 Krosan grip, 4 Dark confidant and taking out 4 led, 4 infernal tutor, and 1 ponder. If the list is solid it may just be better since most of my meta is counterbalance based decks

xsockmonkeyx
03-16-2009, 03:05 PM
Where can i find this list?

here (http://www.thestarkingtonpost.com/?page_id=443)

ANT
Jamie Parke
Grand Prix-Chicago
4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual
2 tendrils of agony
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 duress
3 pact of negation
1 wipe away
4 lotus petal
2 ad nauseam
4 mystical tutor
1 ill-gotten gains
4 chrome mox
1 chain of vapor
1 sensei’s divining top
4 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
4 underground sea
3 island
2 swamp
Sideboard
4 dark confidant
2 annul
4 leyline of the void
1 rebuild
1 wipe away
2 hydroblast
1 pact of negation

ColeM
03-16-2009, 04:11 PM
I've been extremely unimpressed by Dark Confidant in Legacy storm combo. Not only does he not solve the problem that is Counterbalance but blue based control is also often stuck with removal in its maindeck in games 2/3 anyway (Didn't emidln sum this up somewhere?).

I fail to see how removing LED improves consistency. Chrome Mox is still terrible acceleration at anytime prior to casting Ad Nauseam and Cabal Ritual is still hit by Spell Snare and sucks unless you have threshold. I prefer not to make my opponent's Dazes and Cursecatchers relevant.

The only time I had moderate success with Pact of Negation was when I had a large number of answers to Counterbalance too. Even then the card was questionable and often cut down to 1-2 copies, at best. Hard counters were never a problem, Counterbalance was/is, and Pact clearly does not solve that problem.

Without Infernal Tutors, how do you plan on reaching a sufficient storm count? Totally relying on Ad Nauseam seems like a very poor plan against blue based aggro/control. I suppose setting up double Tendrils is possible, or baiting the opponent into a counter-war with Pacts, but again, neither of these address Counterbalance very well.

If you're going to try the "all-in" approach, I suggest sticking to something that resembles BC's list or a TES varient. Try to knife-out hard counters and/or Counterbalance with discard/chant effects and quickly resolve Ad Nauseam -- win before the blue control player has time to cantrip/draw into multiple pieces of disruption.

sauce
03-16-2009, 04:22 PM
apparently 4 spell snares in the board is whats up consider all the hate for this deck comes in terms of 2 drop:

thorn of amethyst
gaddock teeg
ethersworn canonist
counterbalance
null rod (lol)

Shriekmaw
03-16-2009, 04:33 PM
The deck has amazing protection to get ad nauseum to resolve and then you just win. I can't find too many faults with the list as its probably the best list I've seen when you have to deal with blue decks and counterbalances all day.

Maybe the LED's and Infernal Tutors are "win-more" cards that don't need to be played in ANT. It's hard to protect Ad Nauseum with counters when you have to discard your hand to LED.

LED is amazing against decks that don't run blue, anything else I rather not see them in my hand. It's also hard to use LED against blue when your not running white for chant main deck.

BreathWeapon
03-17-2009, 04:37 PM
The deck has amazing protection to get ad nauseum to resolve and then you just win. I can't find too many faults with the list as its probably the best list I've seen when you have to deal with blue decks and counterbalances all day.

Maybe the LED's and Infernal Tutors are "win-more" cards that don't need to be played in ANT. It's hard to protect Ad Nauseum with counters when you have to discard your hand to LED.

LED is amazing against decks that don't run blue, anything else I rather not see them in my hand. It's also hard to use LED against blue when your not running white for chant main deck.

It's not an unrealistic approach to the Balance/Top match up, I use to board out 4 Infernal Tutor and 4 Lion's Eye Diamond for 4 Pyro and Red Elemental Blasts in TES with mixed results. Personally, I came to the conclusion it was simply better to SB in Empty the Warrens and Vexing Shusher, but considering both of those cards suck in ANT the 8 Blast plan seems pretty reasonable.

Hell, even MDing 8 Blasts seems reasonable if Ad Nauseam is enough to push the deck past Goblins. Modeling the deck in the vein of a Combo-Control deck where the control comes from the red blasts vs Standstill/Threshold and the combo invalidates the aggro match up is definitely worth testing IMO.

Carlos El Salvador
03-17-2009, 05:19 PM
I'm Glad ANT got moved up to the DtB fourms.

Anyhow, I took 49th at the GP with Ad Storm, a total record of 11-4. here is the list I used....

AnT:
4 Dark ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamnd
3 Infernal Tutor
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Orim's Chant
4 Duress
1 Rushing River
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Louts Petal
3 Chrome Mox
2 Ad Nausium

3 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Swamp

SB:
1 Infernal tutor
1 Ill Gotten Gains
2 Pact of Negation
2 Slaughter Pact
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Mana Short
3 Krosan Grip
1 Tropical Island
1 Wipe Away
1 Angel's Grace
1 Hurkul's recall

I was originally going to run the Dark confidant package, but I have no Confidants, however, after the GP, I feel that Confidant is not worth it. Also, the Wipe away should become a Tendrils of Agony.

Rounds and wins/losses:
1: Landstill (Bad) W 2-0 (Chain of Vapors helped providing this win)
2: Bwg Aggro control (Brian Kowal's decklist) L 0-2 Awful matchup, too much discard!
3: Bad GW: W: 2-0
4: Aggro Loam: W 2-1 (He had 3 chalices game 2)
5: Aggro Loam: W 2-0
6: An Aggro Deck (I honestly forgot, no islands, though!) W 2-0
7: Zoo: L 1-2, I could have mini comboed, but I would of -loved- the second tendrils in this match-up. That would have won it for me as well.
8: (Red based) Mirror: Win 2-1
9: Wub Weenie (Dick of a player), W 2-0, and glad to knock this guy out of contention.

Day 2:
10: Zoo: Win 2-0
11: Mirror w/ White: Win 2-0
12: (VS Tommy Kolowith) Loss 0-2. I could have won game 2, due to Orim's Chant and PoN superiority, but I played into one of his two orim's chants, when I had plenty of mana after an Ad Nausium to duress him, forcing him to play the Chant In response, then I would have had double chant double LED Infernal Tutor and 2 other cards, with the white mana to play Chant if need be next turn. Bad play mistake.
13: Goblins: Win 2-1
14: Team America: (eek!) Lose 0-2. I could have won both games I would have ever Duressed the stifle instead of Force of Will. The deck is winnable, I just should have paid more attention.
15: Dreadstill: Win 2-0 I win game 1 because he forgets to put two cards back with brainstorm and proceeds to shuffle library and some other stuff. Game 2 he mulls to six and I just own him.

Notes on playing the deck: The Sideboard is nearly perfect, And I had to fill in four slots. I love the siding in of the Trop and 3 Krosan Grip against half the field. The fact that a lot of decks were running Pyrostatic pillar and Crypts against me made it really worth it. I think that the main deck is -perfect-. Let me reiterate this point. The main deck is perfect, don't screw it up. You have to sideboard intelligently as well, understand that VS non-blue, you really change the deck to play much more like Iggy Pop, I usually sided out one Ad Nausium and a ponder to bring in the Infernal Tutor and Ill gotten Gains. If I could change anything, it would be perhaps the Mana Short and wipe away for +1 Tendrils and +1 Pact of Negation.

Edit: Note on the main deck being perfect. The Rushing river can become a Wipe away, I just hate losing to Stax and Dragon stompy.

Double Edit: My first major tournament in a year and a half.

Triple Edit: Gah, My SB is off!

deadlock
03-18-2009, 07:47 AM
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=24190

another LEDless version placing first in a 70 person tournament.

Looks like he relied heavily on AN with Angels Grace out of the board.

sunshine
03-18-2009, 08:08 AM
The City of Traitors seem odd, they can only be used to cast Ad Nauseam/Tendrils/Top/pay for PoN (I suppose). It's not the first list I've seen running them though. Has anyone here actually tested City of Traitors? I guess it is kinda nice to be able to play Top and spin it off the same land.

johanessen
03-18-2009, 11:01 AM
I posted it on #756.
Same League on febrary tournament won the same deck, ANT; LEDless and with 2 City of traitors from the same team

Pulp_Fiction
03-19-2009, 04:40 PM
Last night I took ANT to my local tournament and made it to the top 4 split out of 22 people. The list is unchanged since last time except a few tweaks to the SB:

4x LED
4x Dark Ritual
4x Lotus Petal
4x Duress
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Brainstorm
3x Infernal Tutor
3x Ponder
3x Orim's Chant
3x Cabal Ritual
3x Chrome Mox
2x Ad Nauseam
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x IGG
1x Wipe Away
1x Krosan Grip

4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
1x Island
1x Underground Sea
1x Bayou
1x Tropical Island
1x Tundra
1x Scrubland

Sideboard

4x Serenity
3x Xantid Swarm
2x Slaughter Pact
2x Krosan Grip
1x Plains
1x Virtue's Ruin
1x Tempest of Light
1x Brain Freeze

Short tournament report:

round 1 - R/G/w Zoo
g1: I drop down to 15 life and combo off on turn 2, revealed a fucking Ad Nauseam but LED, LED, Ritual, Petal, IT get it done!
g2: Basically the same except I was at 18 life. Slaughter Pact kills Teeg and then rifle though literally 25 cards and Mystical for Tendrils and Brainstorm into it!

round 2 - 8 Post (fucking cool as hell deck!!!!)
g1: Easily combo off on turn 3 with 19 life!
g2: Mull to 6 and keep a hand of land, Ponder, Brainstorm, double Ritual, Petal. Ponder and Brainstorm leave me stranded and I am in topdeck mode!!! The deck just broke down and all I could draw was fucking lands and Petals and Rituals!!! I get in a Spellburst lock and lose on turn 15 :( Nothing I could do :(
g3: Easily win on turn 5 after a mull to 6 and slow setup, playing around Spellburst as he played a shock land on turn 1 untapped without anything else! I Chant him and AdN into the win!

round 3 - Counterbalance Thresh garbage with Shackles (kabal)
g1: It is just sad times. I Mystical into Krosan Grip early on and just can't draw my third land. He lands CB on turn 3 and Top turn 4 and the deck just isn't being nice to me :( I actually got to a point where I could Chant and Duress, IGG, leave a shit ton of mana floating and hope to Brainstorm and Ponder into something relevant, but I knew he was floating a 3 drop on top and after he dropped a second CB there was nothing I could do, I just threw the Grip away to confirm my suspicions about the top card of his deck and went to the next game.

g2: Just more sad times. Can't believe the deck was this unkind to me. I keep my opening 7 which had Swarm, land, land, Brainstorm, Ritual, LED, and something else. A solid hand. Again he gets double CB into play .... and I can't draw into fucking anything besides more ritual effects.

round 4 - R/G/w Zoo (Loxodon Baileyarch)
g1: I'm already pissed I have to play another one of my buddies, and even more pissed he is playing a deck I really like! I joke about just comboing off on turn 1 and mull to 6 on the draw and see: land, Mystical Tutor, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Ad Nauseam!!!! Halfway through the AdN he scoops em up as he saw it was over.

g2: Damnit, it happens again!!! The deck leaves me stalled on mana!!! I have a beautiful turn 3 IGG loop in my hand and watch Bailey drop Null Rod!!!! I EOT Mystical for Wipe Away and then Brainstorm during my turn to try and find a third land. Next turn I Ponder and shuffle then Brainstorm again!!! I looked at a total of 12 cards off the top of my library and never hit my 3rd land .... it happens but it always fucking sucks!

g3: Opening hand: Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Ad Nauseam, land, Brainstorm ..... KEEP. I win on turn 1 again and just to kind of rub it in I Mystical for IGG and Brainstorm into it then Infernal, for Infernal, for the third Infernal and finally fetch Tendrils with storm at around 18ish! Win is a win but I still feel bad since he got the worst matchup (I was one of 2 combo decks out of 22 people) he could possibly have gotten.

Top 8

round 5 - U/G/b Survival with Daze and FoW
g1: Duress takes Force on turn 1 and I easily setup for the kill on turn 4 and AdN into the win!

g2: He plays a turn 1 Overgrown Tomb and I smile since I stare at the Swarm in my hand and know it can't be Dazed! I drop Swarm on turn 1 and he laughs (he and I talked about this card a while ago in random decks as protection from counters). It resolves and I begin to setup for the win. Duress on turn 2 takes Deed (whew) and I Ponder into garbage. Then I Brainstorm into garbage!!!!! We are both in topdeck mode and his hand is full of counters and mine is: Cabal, Dark, Dark, IGG, LED. I drew a shit ton of lands in a row. I draw into Tendrils of Agony and attack with Swarm, play LED, Cabal, Dark, Dark, and Tendrils for 10 with 4 black floating. Cast IGG and blow up LED for 3 black, bring back Tendrils, LED, Ritual, and Tendrils for the win! After the game was over he showed me his hand: Fow, Fow, Daze, Daze, Daze!!!! Go Swarm!!!!!!

I am still just loving this list. I still don't really like Ad Nauseam since it kind of takes storm combo from the realm of serious playskill and turn it into something that feels like Belcher. What I mean by this is that anyone can count to 7 and play Belcher (look at your opening hand and ask "can I win"?), same with Ad Nauseam, anyone can draw 1/4 of their fucking deck and play 10 spells to win the game. I am not saying this deck is easy to play correctly because it isn't, but it just doesn't feel like true storm combo. I love playing TES so much more (I win VIA AdN when playing TES maytbe 1/5-6 times) but why would I play TES when this list is 100 times more consistent, mulligans so much better, doesn't lose to multiple Wastelands, fairly immune to hand destruction, and has maindeck and SB answers for CB! Being a combo player I like challenging and complex plays (probably why I like playing the blue match since I have to think critically about nearly everything) but playing ritual, ritual, spell, draw half deck, win ... feels like I am cheating storm combo. But, either way, the deck is just so fucking good it is hard to find a reason to not keep playing it! The only matchup you really don't want is Stax but still have multiple answers in the SB!!!

Something else I want to address, why is everyone going nuts over the lists without LED and without IT???? Against burn I make a conscious effort to mull and setup for the IGG loop. I have been bolted, bolted, and Fireblasted at 10 life (on turn 2) while playing SI. Choosing to rely solely on AdN for the win seems terrible. If you get off to a somewhat slow start and get a decent-bad AdN at 14ish life it will be some sad times! Even with double Tendrils. Play a bunch of shit, Tendrils for 16, then AdN again next turn and try it again. But I really just don't like the idea of basing the deck around 1 card. Thats why I love IT, allows alternate wins with little life!

Shriekmaw
03-19-2009, 06:36 PM
Something else I want to address, why is everyone going nuts over the lists without LED and without IT???? Against burn I make a conscious effort to mull and setup for the IGG loop. I have been bolted, bolted, and Fireblasted at 10 life (on turn 2) while playing SI. Choosing to rely solely on AdN for the win seems terrible. If you get off to a somewhat slow start and get a decent-bad AdN at 14ish life it will be some sad times! Even with double Tendrils. Play a bunch of shit, Tendrils for 16, then AdN again next turn and try it again. But I really just don't like the idea of basing the deck around 1 card. Thats why I love IT, allows alternate wins with little life!


The list is a lot better without LED if your expecting to run into blue decks all day long. Your matchup against aggro is very good anyways, why waste a slot making that matchup better when you should focus on how to beat the blue decks better.

Relying on An Naueum to win isn't a bad idea when you have mutliple effects to search for the card and protect it. You cast An Nauseum and you win the game, its that simple.

Play test both versions and you will see what I'm talking about.

mercc
03-21-2009, 05:17 PM
The City of Traitors seem odd, they can only be used to cast Ad Nauseam/Tendrils/Top/pay for PoN (I suppose). It's not the first list I've seen running them though. Has anyone here actually tested City of Traitors? I guess it is kinda nice to be able to play Top and spin it off the same land.

Think hatred.
Swamp, Traitors, ritual - Ad Nauseum

mercc
03-22-2009, 01:56 AM
The list is a lot better without LED if your expecting to run into blue decks all day long. Your matchup against aggro is very good anyways, why waste a slot making that matchup better when you should focus on how to beat the blue decks better.

Relying on An Naueum to win isn't a bad idea when you have mutliple effects to search for the card and protect it. You cast An Nauseum and you win the game, its that simple.

Play test both versions and you will see what I'm talking about.

With that quote, when is it EVER good to play with LED?

And these new spanish lists with city of traitors and no LED, is mox diamond necessary post-nauseum? Cause i dont think its good before it with only 14 land.

Shriekmaw
03-23-2009, 12:52 PM
With that quote, when is it EVER good to play with LED?

And these new spanish lists with city of traitors and no LED, is mox diamond necessary post-nauseum? Cause i dont think its good before it with only 14 land.


I just realized, in the current metagame I don't know why people would play LED in combo with all the blue decks running around. If you really want to play LED then you have to splash a third color to add chant b/c without it you can't reliably go off against control decks.

Think about this, what matchups does LED improve? What matchups do you want to improve?

The answers, LED helps with the aggro decks (non-blue). The matchups you want to improve are against the blue decks. Why not give up a little in your non-blue matchups to improve your worse matchup.

The goal to winning a major tournament is the ability to consistency beating blue decks and thats why Parke's version has been the best one I've seen so far that incorporates this strategy.

Noman Peopled
03-23-2009, 05:16 PM
LED also make cantrips/Top/Mystical/ID/IGG better. (Doomsday goes without saying).

I'm not arguing against LED or for LED here, just saying that LED gives a deck more than just speed.
I also enjoy the relative ease with which ID/LED gets you Tendrils post-Nauseam (rather than needing UU which you can't produce with Rituals and Mystical as well as a cantrip - you need 2UUBB to win via Mystical/cantrip->Tendrils, as opposed to 2B with ID/LED->Tendrils).

kroelai
03-24-2009, 07:09 AM
I just realized, in the current metagame I don't know why people would play LED in combo with all the blue decks running around. If you really want to play LED then you have to splash a third color to add chant b/c without it you can't reliably go off against control decks.

Think about this, what matchups does LED improve? What matchups do you want to improve?

The answers, LED helps with the aggro decks (non-blue). The matchups you want to improve are against the blue decks. Why not give up a little in your non-blue matchups to improve your worse matchup.

The goal to winning a major tournament is the ability to consistency beating blue decks and thats why Parke's version has been the best one I've seen so far that incorporates this strategy.


Lol, Dark ritual doesn't improve a matchup either.
They just make the deck.

Shriekmaw
03-24-2009, 11:00 AM
Lol, Dark ritual doesn't improve a matchup either.
They just make the deck.


Dark Ritual doesn't make you discard your hand, that is the key point.

The main argurement against LED is that you have to discard your hand in order to use it which gives you no protection.

Thats why I was saying you really have to run white for chant b/c duress/thoughtseize doesn't cut it a lot of times.

matelml
03-24-2009, 12:05 PM
Dark Ritual doesn't make you discard your hand, that is the key point.
I don't see the point. So? It's also not an artifact. It doesn't cost 0. It doesn't necessarily create hellbent. Doesn't mean it's bad to run LED.


The main argurement against LED is that you have to discard your hand in order to use it which gives you no protection.
Chant, Duress and Thoughtseize work fine with LED. The only thing that doesn't work, that is not horrible to play is Pact. Which is worse than playing with LED and other protection.


Thats why I was saying you really have to run white for chant b/c duress/thoughtseize doesn't cut it a lot of times.
True.

So? We have dual lands and fetch lands in the format.

mercc
03-24-2009, 05:13 PM
Does this thread involve Ad Nauseum decks with red in it?
For Burning wish and rite of flame and good SB-cards like pyroblast and shattering spree.

Fistandantilus
03-24-2009, 06:05 PM
Has anyone considered running 4 divining tops and 1 or more locket of yesterdays? With 1 top in the graveyard and locket + 2 tops in play, you get infinite storm count. Divining tops wouldn't be bad in the deck anyway, would they?

matelml
03-24-2009, 06:12 PM
Has anyone considered running 4 divining tops and 1 or more locket of yesterdays? With 1 top in the graveyard and locket + 2 tops in play, you get infinite storm count. Divining tops wouldn't be bad in the deck anyway, would they?

-How will you get 1 Top in the GY? The only answer I see is LED.

-Locket is a really bad card you practically can't tutor for.

-Infinite storm is useless, if you can create 9.

-You want to play a 6 card combo? With 1 piece you can tutor for and 3 copies of the same card?

Top itself isn't bad in the deck. Though I think it's not the best option.

Fistandantilus
03-24-2009, 06:24 PM
-How will you get 1 Top in the GY? The only answer I see is LED.

-Locket is a really bad card you practically can't tutor for.

-Infinite storm is useless, if you can create 9.

-You want to play a 6 card combo? With 1 piece you can tutor for and 3 copies of the same card?

Top itself isn't bad in the deck. Though I think it's not the best option.

A substitute for locket would be helm of awakening. Since the deck plans to go off early, it probably doesn't help your opponent too much. Granted, it's a bad card too, and costs 1 more than locket, but you wouldn't need to get the top in the graveyard that way. Helm also makes your cabal rituals good.

Have people been reaching 9 storm with ease?

The combo would be supplementary to what's already in the deck. Since tops are not bad anyway, you're really only needing to make room for the helm/locket. I concede that if you really, really don't want tops in your deck anyway, that this isn't a good idea.

kicks_422
03-24-2009, 06:30 PM
Hybrid lists which also run Doomsday have a Helm of Awakening and Grapeshot/Brain Freeze in the SB. A Doomsday utilizing these cards generates infinite storm for decks that gain life (even gaining just 10 life is already tough for Storm to reach), and it also circumvents hate such as Meddling Mage, Gaddock Teeg, Ethersworn Canonist, etc.

mercc
03-25-2009, 02:23 AM
Is empty the warrens a good card vs. counterbalancedecks? Post-board

linux-ll-
03-25-2009, 08:34 AM
Can somebody explain me the "Doomsday Combo"?

4eak
03-25-2009, 09:09 AM
@ mercc


Is empty the warrens a good card vs. counterbalancedecks? Post-board

Assuming you are playing a more control-oriented approach, using Red for blasts, then yes.

EtW lets you win small, often with a smaller number of spell/cards than would have been required for Tendrils. Going for EtW can be an alternate gameplan for when Tendrils would have worked but failed, letting you spend your hard earned Storm through some outlet. EtW requires fewer resources to become functional, and thus more resources can be devoted to soaking up or answering control cards from your opponent.

Sometimes you just have to win small against heavy control (like CB).





peace,
4eak

emidln
03-25-2009, 10:03 AM
Can somebody explain me the "Doomsday Combo"?

It's just a mass tutor that works as a storm engine. You generally won't pass the turn so you build a stack something like:

Meditate/Brainstorm
Accel
Accel
Random Card
Win Condition

and you're simply looking to get a free 4-6 storm using SDT/Brainstorm to draw into the pile. That it doesn't give your opponent back force of will or really care about your life total (you need 2 life to go off with Doomsday which is a lot more forgiving than Ad Nauseam in some matchups) is a nice bonus. If you search the boards for Doomsday piles I'm sure you'll come up with some posts of mine or others explaining how to play them.

The specific sensei, sensei pile we use is usually something like this:

Meditate
Helm of Awakening
Sensei's Divining Top
Lion's Eye Diamond
Grapeshot

For the record, I win the vast majority of my games with Tendrils.

mercc
03-26-2009, 02:29 AM
http://wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Events.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpchi09/welcome

Look at "Quarterfinals: Tommy Kolowith vs. Andy Probasco"

Slaughter :(
what do you do?
EtW?
Grips?
Shusher?
First turn discard?

kicks_422
03-26-2009, 09:59 AM
Well, Probasco landed Counterbalance both games, Turn 3 (?) first game and Turn 2 on the second. Grips would have helped him more than Shushers.

On the first game, I would have Mystical'd for Wipe Away in my build and waited for a protection spell to go off, probably with IGG or Doomsday.

emidln
03-26-2009, 11:13 AM
Well, Probasco landed Counterbalance both games, Turn 3 (?) first game and Turn 2 on the second. Grips would have helped him more than Shushers.

On the first game, I would have Mystical'd for Wipe Away in my build and waited for a protection spell to go off, probably with IGG or Doomsday.

My experience against Probasco in the trial that weekend:

I'm on the play and I lead with Duress. I think I take a Brainstorm effect noting his Force of Will (I have a second Duress). I Duress him again turn 2 for the Force knowing I can go off with Chant next turn. He draws and drops Counterbalance and I never draw the third land for the Wipe Away in my hand (I was playing 16 main). I was playing the ANT/Doomsday hybrid with Wipe Away and he simply drew well.

The bottom line is that even in a build that is geared to dealing with CB, their good draws are usually going to beat your good draws. Shusher doesn't help much because (1) they don't tend to take out all of their removal and (2) they board in BEB/Threads for expensive/worthless stuff like Sower anyway because it still pitches to Force and might randomly do something good (like nuke a Shusher).

mercc
03-26-2009, 03:44 PM
But our good draws lets us win turn 1 or 2, maybe 3.
So, maybe more consistent speed?
And we dont have win by storming for Tendrils, but maybe just 10 EtW tokens?
But even Kolowith played Burning wish for EtW, but didn't win. hmm

Is the CB-maychup just a fold?
Concentrating on winning every other matchup instead?

linux-ll-
03-26-2009, 05:12 PM
Because of my experiences I can say that mostly every time when I cast Empty the Warrens I wonīt win. There is to many hate against our little green friends.
I think the best plan against Counterbalance is to play 4 Korsan Grips in SB.

Pulp_Fiction
03-27-2009, 05:01 PM
Alright, I took the same U/B/g/w list I posted a while ago with a slightly different SB to my local tournament again and went 3-0-2 and made it to the top 8 (out of 30ish people) and there I encountered the worst possible matchup this deck could have, Ninja Chant. This deck is no joke, almost everytime he bring it he top8s or top4s. Here are the MAINDECK HATE CARDS:

4x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Meddling Mage
3x Stifle
4x Orim's Chant
3x Jotun Grunt (fucks up threshed Rituals and can't IGG cards played earlier)

Game 1 I mulled to 5 and lost to double Meddling Mage and Force, and game 2 I lost to Chant and double Force, so this was good times. But this got me thinking, maybe Pyroblast and Red Blasts would be better than green. More hate for CB game 1 (and Mage) and is randomly good in the mirror. And in place of KGrip just run Wipe Away. I was thinking about playing these hate cards in the main:

4x Chant
3x Pyroblast
1x Wipe Away

Then in the SB bringing the following in:

1x Pyroblast
2x REB
2x Wipe Away

Just an idea for beating heavy control decks. I will really miss Swarm but he has been sent farming quite often lately so I am losing a little faith in the card. There is something I have really been looking into testing and that is City of Solitude but it just seems to expensive and to slow .... but the Blast plan seems good. I will also miss Duress but I think having blasts against CB is an even trade off and the random aggro matchups where Duress is really good are so winnable anyway that it doesn't matter.

emidln
03-27-2009, 05:28 PM
I was doing some light testing today and noticed that this list works extremely well (based on the Spanish and ML lists):

4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Simian Spirit Guide

2 Ad Nauseam
2 Tendrils of Agony
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Pyroblast

4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Badlands
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea

I went with 8x red blasts and the SSG to help avoid the daze issue. The list has been pretty consistent in initial testing and I'm running 4 LED, 2 Infernal Tutor, 1 IGG in the sb against discard decks. I've been playing 4x Shattering Spree, 3x Chain of Vapor, and 1x Wipe Away to round out the sb. I'll do some more testing with this over the weekend to see if I can find a better plan against aggro/discard and to see if I need to tweak the manabase for basics or to go heavier on a particular dual.

BreathWeapon
03-28-2009, 05:35 AM
I was doing some light testing today and noticed that this list works extremely well (based on the Spanish and ML lists):

4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Simian Spirit Guide

2 Ad Nauseam
2 Tendrils of Agony
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Pyroblast

4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Badlands
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea

I went with 8x red blasts and the SSG to help avoid the daze issue. The list has been pretty consistent in initial testing and I'm running 4 LED, 2 Infernal Tutor, 1 IGG in the sb against discard decks. I've been playing 4x Shattering Spree, 3x Chain of Vapor, and 1x Wipe Away to round out the sb. I'll do some more testing with this over the weekend to see if I can find a better plan against aggro/discard and to see if I need to tweak the manabase for basics or to go heavier on a particular dual.

I run more or less the same list and it's absolutely fucking amazing vs Threshold; as much as I like Simian Spirit Guide, it's not that great, because it's a lightning bolt post-Nauseam and the 8 blasts gives you a lot of time to hit your land drops, so you may as well run 15-17 lands to take advantage of it.

Deirex
03-28-2009, 05:55 AM
I was doing some light testing today and noticed that this list works extremely well (based on the Spanish and ML lists):

4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Simian Spirit Guide

2 Ad Nauseam
2 Tendrils of Agony
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Pyroblast

4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Badlands
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea


Since there's so much red in the list why not cut a Tendrils for a Wish?

kicks_422
03-28-2009, 10:17 AM
Cutting LED's seems to be the trend. Isn't Orim's Chant and Duress working anymore to make sure the deck capitalizes on LED? Also, no back-up plan to Ad Nauseam (e.g. IGG)?

Heresy
03-28-2009, 11:50 AM
List
As Breathweapon mentionned, Simian is pretty damaging. I'd like to see rite of flame in there but I don't know where. The Myst. Tutors are busted by the way (post-board too).

georgjorge
03-28-2009, 12:24 PM
list


No way...you're playing a list without Doomsdays ?

nodahero
03-28-2009, 02:39 PM
THE APOCALYPSE is upon us... Ironic since Doomsday is out lol...

I really don't understand why Emidln would cut Doomsday after the amazing finishes put up by Next Level. After all isn't that the type of meta game where D-Day rocks? It seems rather counter intuitive to make such a switch. Then again it is possible that he made the switch as a solution to Counter/Top after all they still gotta get to turn 2...

emidln
03-28-2009, 04:42 PM
From time to time I test radically different approaches to storm combo. I tend to not post about most of them because most end up being awful. This one wasn't so I thought I'd throw it out there. SSG didn't pose any lifeloss issues. In a little over a hundred games I haven't lost any games due to SSG taking 3-6 life. I've won a ton of games playing around Daze or playing a red Blast when seemingly tapped out. It also helps to make up for the lack of LED in the maindeck.

Rite of Flame will never be better than Simian Spirit Guide in anything resembling the list I posted. Extra initial mana sources is what I was looking for, not shitty ritual effects.

Pulp_Fiction
03-28-2009, 04:55 PM
@emidln: Did you test out Empty the Warrens in the main or side? Based on the disgusting amount of Red Blasts it looks to be able to beat blue easier but how about just random aggro? Without LED and IT to give you free wins and Chant/Duress to buy you time when needed it looks like this list could potentially have problems with Goblins and Eva Green. And the combo mirror would seem to be just awful. Also, the lack of a maindeck bounce spell (Wipe Away or Echoing Truth) doesn't seem so hot either. But, anyway, I will test it out and see how it plays. I am assuming the SB will look something like:

1-2 xIGG
4x LED
2-3x IT
1-3x Empty the Warrens
2-4x Slaughter Pact/creature removal spots
1-2x Echoing Truth/bounce spell
2-4x Artifact/Enchantment destruction spells

Also, could Personal Tutor potentially have a slot as a sorcery speed Mystical 5-6?

emidln
03-28-2009, 05:08 PM
@emidln: Did you test out Empty the Warrens in the main or side? Based on the disgusting amount of Red Blasts it looks to be able to beat blue easier but how about just random aggro? Without LED and IT to give you free wins and Chant/Duress to buy you time when needed it looks like this list could potentially have problems with Goblins and Eva Green. And the combo mirror would seem to be just awful. Also, the lack of a maindeck bounce spell (Wipe Away or Echoing Truth) doesn't seem so hot either. But, anyway, I will test it out and see how it plays. I am assuming the SB will look something like:

1-2 xIGG
4x LED
2-3x IT
1-3x Empty the Warrens
2-4x Slaughter Pact/creature removal spots
1-2x Echoing Truth/bounce spell
2-4x Artifact/Enchantment destruction spells

Also, could Personal Tutor potentially have a slot as a sorcery speed Mystical 5-6?

Depressingly Personal Tutor doesn't find Ad Nauseam. My sb is currently like this:

3 Chain of Vapor
1 Wipe Away
2 H.Recall
2 Empty the Warrens
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

I think ETW probably could be maindecked. The lack of maindeck bounce has been an issue in a few games. The list I posted was the first concept list that I started to play that had good results. It has no real tuning.

I don't know how much I care about the combo mirror. In an environment where you'd want to play this list, most people would be sane enough to not bring storm combo, and those who do are either playing a similar strategy (so you're probably not worried about Chants), managed to avoid blue so far in the event, or are not in your bracket because they've lost a few matches.

Viscosity
03-29-2009, 02:33 AM
Just an idea for beating heavy control decks. I will really miss Swarm but he has been sent farming quite often lately so I am losing a little faith in the card. There is something I have really been looking into testing and that is City of Solitude but it just seems to expensive and to slow ....

Have you considered Defense Grid?

johanessen
03-29-2009, 06:09 PM
Anyone tested 2/3xGrim Tutors?

mercc
03-31-2009, 01:26 PM
so, can we try and narrow all these "special" cards down? :) the ones we would like against a certain type of deck but we can't have it all.
what do we want to have....

vs. Threshold with CB?
Duress
8 blasts

vs. Merfolk or slivers (aggrodecks with daze and FoW)
Duress
Pact of negation
Orims chant

vs. Survival rock / Deadguy ale
Bounce or slaughterpact vs. cannonist/teeg
Pact of negation vs. chant
LED-package (infernal, LED, IGG)

what more? :) i like the LED-package maindeck. But I dont face that many blue decks, i will prolly change my mind then.

Pulp_Fiction
03-31-2009, 03:54 PM
These are the protection spells I run:

4x Orim's Chant
4x Duress

I am not a big fan of the Blast plan since it requires quite a few lands in play. If you are trying to ask what the best protection spell is, it is Orim's Chant by a clear mile (this can depend on what deck you are playing but usually this is it). Chant covers all the bases and allows you to cast IGG regardless of whats in the opponent's yard. It acts as a timewalk when cast in the early turns and OWNS Enchantress and Dredge as well as timewalks and fogs aggro, as good as it gets.

Regarding Pact of Negation, I will not argue this again in another combo thread but I will state this if you deck runs Lion's Eye Diamond then PoN is shit, if it doesn't then the card is very much viable.

matelml
03-31-2009, 06:35 PM
I have a question. Anyone may answer with his opinion, the more the better.

You will play in a tournament, but may not change your maindeck. In your sideboard there are 8 cards you may fill in with any legacy legal card, ofc not playing more than 4 copies of 1 card in main and side together. All the other decks at the tournament happen to be UWG CounterTop Thresh, a pretty average list, let's say 2 Spells Snare's and no Stifle. Assuming your goal is to win as many rounds as possible, what would you fill the 8 slots with and how would you board?

This is the maindeck and partly Sb list, which you may not change.

4 LED
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Mystical Tutor
4 IT
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 AdN
1 IGG
1 ToA
4 Chant
4 Duress
4 Delta
4 Strand
1 Isle
1 Swamp
2 Sea
2 Tundra

Sb:
8 slots to fill
4 Thoughtseize
1 EtW
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's recall

If you really want to you may alter the (land)manabase a bit, but 1 Tundra, 2 Sea, and 8 fetch must stay. This because you may want to splash and play a dual of the splash color, but you could also play it Sb.

I don't care about your opinion on the rest of the Sb or maindeck for now.

Pulp_Fiction
03-31-2009, 09:35 PM
That is a hideous list to take into that kind of meta. With only 14 lands and no green you have no chance at doing well plus there is no maindeck bounce spell or Ad Nauseam #2. The maindeck manabase should look like this:

4x Strand
4x Delta
1x Sea
1x Tundra
1x Island
1x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Trop
1x Swamp

And then those 8 slots in the SB should be:

3x Krosan Grip
3x Xantid Swarm (cut Thoughtseize, it is to counterproductive)
1x IGG (to make burn/Goyf Sligh a literal bye)
1x Slaughter Pact

GGoober
03-31-2009, 11:32 PM
I was wondering, since ANT has a terrible MU against CB, why not try out Trickbind in the sideboard? Bait with Chant and if they activate top to spin or flip, Trickbind it so that for the rest of the game, CB can only counter spells from a single blind flip's cc.

I know this is clunky, but there is almost absolutely no way to beat CB if it resolves except to wipe away, for which they will try to be prepared when you tutor for Wipe away. Just an idea with Trickbind. It stops the first activation and rest of the activations for the rest of the turn. It's more mana heavy, but games aren't going to be fast if a CB is already in play. Trickbind might solve the problem of a CB ALREADY in play. Worse comes to worse, multiple Trickbinds can be used to stifle Fetches and slow your opponent from setting up CT.

kroelai
04-01-2009, 04:10 AM
I have a question. Anyone may answer with his opinion, the more the better.

You will play in a tournament, but may not change your maindeck. In your sideboard there are 8 cards you may fill in with any legacy legal card, ofc not playing more than 4 copies of 1 card in main and side together. All the other decks at the tournament happen to be UWG CounterTop Thresh, a pretty average list, let's say 2 Spells Snare's and no Stifle. Assuming your goal is to win as many rounds as possible, what would you fill the 8 slots with and how would you board?

This is the maindeck and partly Sb list, which you may not change.

4 LED
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Mystical Tutor
4 IT
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 AdN
1 IGG
1 ToA
4 Chant
4 Duress
4 Delta
4 Strand
1 Isle
1 Swamp
2 Sea
2 Tundra

Sb:
8 slots to fill
4 Thoughtseize
1 EtW
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's recall

If you really want to you may alter the (land)manabase a bit, but 1 Tundra, 2 Sea, and 8 fetch must stay. This because you may want to splash and play a dual of the splash color, but you could also play it Sb.

I don't care about your opinion on the rest of the Sb or maindeck for now.


I would say:
8 slots:
2 Tropical Island
2 Krosan Grip
1 Wipe Away
3 random maybe for on the play 3 extra ETW...?

e_hawk77
04-01-2009, 01:01 PM
Trickbind costs way too much. I think that you would be better off with needle. As for the what should be in the board why not board dark confidant and pact of negation and swap them for the led package. I would also say you should turn 2 thoughtsieze into wipe away.

JohnnyCage
04-01-2009, 01:15 PM
So how does everyone feel about the eight blast list? I have been testing and i like it but im still not sold.

matelml
04-01-2009, 01:44 PM
That is a hideous list to take into that kind of meta. With only 14 lands and no green you have no chance at doing well plus there is no maindeck bounce spell or Ad Nauseam #2. The maindeck manabase should look like this:

4x Strand
4x Delta
1x Sea
1x Tundra
1x Island
1x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Trop
1x Swamp

And then those 8 slots in the SB should be:

3x Krosan Grip
3x Xantid Swarm (cut Thoughtseize, it is to counterproductive)
1x IGG (to make burn/Goyf Sligh a literal bye)
1x Slaughter Pact
Ok, I understand that that is a hideous list to take into a meta like that. I'm not interested in that. This of course isn't reality, it's just a thought experiment , with as goal to get the best Sb plan against a standard CB list with the deck I play, which is in my eyes the best list for my meta, so I don't care to hear comments on the list. To make it more clear: no, my meta doesn't consist of 100% CB, otherwise I'd play a different deck.

In the situation I listed, I am not interested in making Goyfsligh a literal bye, nor in hearing I should cut Thoughtseize. This post isn't very useful for me, but thanks anyway.

An important part of the question is: how would you board with the Sb you come up with? Just giving some cards that are good against a specific card isn't very hard, it becomes harder when it needs to be integrated into a strategy/deck.

Also 3 random isn't helpful. There is of course the option of boarding in less than 8 cards and to have a different plan on the play and draw.

JohnnyCage
04-01-2009, 01:53 PM
Ok, I understand that that is a hideous list to take into a meta like that. I'm not interested in that. This of course isn't reality, it's just a thought experiment , with as goal to get the best Sb plan against a standard CB list with the deck I play, which is in my eyes the best list for my meta, so I don't care to hear comments on the list. To make it more clear: no, my meta doesn't consist of 100% CB, otherwise I'd play a different deck.

In the situation I listed, I am not interested in making Goyfsligh a literal bye, nor in hearing I should cut Thoughtseize. This post isn't very useful for me, but thanks anyway.

An important part of the question is: how would you board with the Sb you come up with? Just giving some cards that are good against a specific card isn't very hard, it becomes harder when it needs to be integrated into a strategy/deck.

Also 3 random isn't helpful. There is of course the option of boarding in less than 8 cards and to have a different plan on the play and draw.

So what your doing is giving us a suboptimal list then saying try to make that work. And cutting down others advice isn't a way to get that done. Thoughtseize doesn't belong in the board and i agree with PF on that. The point everyone is making is you can't slave drive results and inspiration. You need to heed their advice. The list you posted is quite suboptimal, so asking us to go back and create a board for said list is quite the oxymoron...

Bahamuth
04-01-2009, 02:02 PM
So what your doing is giving us a suboptimal list then saying try to make that work. And cutting down others advice isn't a way to get that done. Thoughtseize doesn't belong in the board and i agree with PF on that. The point everyone is making is you can't slave drive results and inspiration. You need to heed their advice. The list you posted is quite suboptimal, so asking us to go back and create a board for said list is quite the oxymoron...

He is not giving a suboptimal list at all, he just said that. Please read carefully. You can't say anything about the quality of his list, because it's dependant on the metagame it's played in, and you don't know what metagame that is. I know matelml, he can most certainly defend his card choices in this list. The list is in our metagame certainly not suboptimal. Perhaps up for debate, but not bad.

I don't see the problem with the question. He's just asking for advice on how to construct the sideboard to fight CB Threshold, not wether the rest of his list is good. You could just give a (perhaps your own?) decent SB plan against CB Thresh, and maybe it'll be usefull.

matelml
04-01-2009, 02:12 PM
So what your doing is giving us a suboptimal list then saying try to make that work. And cutting down others advice isn't a way to get that done. Thoughtseize doesn't belong in the board and i agree with PF on that. The point everyone is making is you can't slave drive results and inspiration. You need to heed their advice. The list you posted is quite suboptimal, so asking us to go back and create a board for said list is quite the oxymoron...

Well, in my eyes and not only mine, also that of various other very good players I know, this is the best maindeck list for my meta. Because I will run this list anyway, I said to not change it, because that won't do me any good.
I do think Thoughtseize belongs in my board, but you can ignore it if you want. You may replace them with basic forests in the thought experiment if you want to.
If you are interested in why: it's my Sb plan against pretty much anything nonblue, to take their CotV, Trinisphere, Gaddock Teeg, Cannonist, Pillar, Hymn, Runed Halo, Chant, Thoughtseize, Duress, Sphere of Resistance, Thorn of Amethyst. I usually bring it in for 4 Chant.

Sorry if I came off a little harsh, it's just that I specifically said some things, because I knew if they would be ignored the advice wouldn't be of any use to me and then they get ignored...:rolleyes:

I don't see everyone making the point that I am slave driving results or creativity, but I apologise for sounding like it.

"Oxymoron"? I don't see the contradiction. (I had to look that up, I'm not from the States)

I do appreciate it when people at least try to help, because many times things just get ignored on this forum.

mercc
04-01-2009, 02:18 PM
These are the protection spells I run:

4x Orim's Chant
4x Duress

I am not a big fan of the Blast plan since it requires quite a few lands in play. If you are trying to ask what the best protection spell is, it is Orim's Chant by a clear mile (this can depend on what deck you are playing but usually this is it). Chant covers all the bases and allows you to cast IGG regardless of whats in the opponent's yard. It acts as a timewalk when cast in the early turns and OWNS Enchantress and Dredge as well as timewalks and fogs aggro, as good as it gets.

Regarding Pact of Negation, I will not argue this again in another combo thread but I will state this if you deck runs Lion's Eye Diamond then PoN is shit, if it doesn't then the card is very much viable.

vs. Orims chant, when you play your own chant, they chant in response thus time walking while Pact of negation just simply negates it.

and vs. a counterbalance in play pact of negation and chant sucks. when pyroblast counters it (ofcourse when he plays it)

The debate i'm trying to start is, what protective cards are most versatile, and how can you make a SB that is also versatile. But everyone is still posting decklists saying "what do i do against blue decks... "
well, what do you WANT to have?

JohnnyCage
04-01-2009, 02:57 PM
He is not giving a suboptimal list at all, he just said that. Please read carefully. You can't say anything about the quality of his list, because it's dependant on the metagame it's played in, and you don't know what metagame that is. I know matelml, he can most certainly defend his card choices in this list. The list is in our metagame certainly not suboptimal. Perhaps up for debate, but not bad.

I don't see the problem with the question. He's just asking for advice on how to construct the sideboard to fight CB Threshold, not wether the rest of his list is good. You could just give a (perhaps your own?) decent SB plan against CB Thresh, and maybe it'll be usefull.

So were back to 4 IT, really, maybe if the entire meta is completely underdeveloped but in any healthy meta IT should never be a four of. If he was openly asking for advice he wouldn't go around shooting down the advice given. I'm not saying his list is terrible. Its definately a start but it is worse then most the list on here for a healthy meta. His main is geared to completely destroy anything not blue. Its faster then the average list, I get that but the reason he is asking is because he keeps losing in top 8 to the one guy playing counter top. If he altered his main slightly he would be in better shape to begin with. Thats all i'm saying And i'm not trying to be harsh either, i reread my post and i came off sounding...with the wrong tone so please ignore that. But please take into account an edit of your main, i highly encourage it.

matelml
04-01-2009, 03:17 PM
So were back to 4 IT, really, maybe if the entire meta is completely underdeveloped but in any healthy meta IT should never be a four of. If he was openly asking for advice he wouldn't go around shooting down the advice given. I'm not saying his list is terrible. Its definately a start but it is worse then most the list on here for a healthy meta. His main is geared to completely destroy anything not blue. Its faster then the average list, I get that but the reason he is asking is because he keeps losing in top 8 to the one guy playing counter top. If he altered his main slightly he would be in better shape to begin with. Thats all i'm saying And i'm not trying to be harsh either, i reread my post and i came off sounding...with the wrong tone so please ignore that. But please take into account an edit of your main, i highly encourage it.

Thanks, but there are some wrong assumptions you make.

I'm not openly asking for any advice, but just for the CB match-up. My assessment of my meta is that I don't need to change my main for the match-up, because it is so little played. You may call this an "undeveloped meta" if you want to, but it's like this in most of the Netherlands and Belgium, as far as I know.
The reason I'm asking for advice is not that I keep losing to CB in the T8. In fact, the last tournament I played that list, I split top 2, at 56 ppl. I'm pretty happy with my main, but my Sb could be better, probably. Since I know my meta better than most people on TheSource, I don't ask "What Sb and MB should I run?", but ask something more specific.

mercc
04-01-2009, 03:36 PM
What i reckon, the best thing against CB is pyroblast or something else that counters it, spellsnare has been debated but people didn't like it.
You can't count on discarding their CB when they have brainstorm or just plain topdeck. Orim's chant doesn't do anything, neither do Pact of negation.

kicks_422
04-01-2009, 08:16 PM
That's why this deck should run Tropical Island and 3-4 Krosan Grips. You can afford to wait because usually Goyf is no more than a 3/4. EOT Grip, and on your turn Duress that FoW, Chant against Snares and Dazes, and go boom.

JohnnyCage
04-02-2009, 12:03 AM
I highly recommend one change to main, drop one IT and add one AdN at least that will help boarding. And perhaps a splash of red and 7 or 8 blast side would help. You would have to alter your main a little more but i honstly have been testing the blast version and have been loving it.

matelml
04-02-2009, 02:39 AM
So how would you suggest to board then? How many Blasts? Krosan Grips? How many Chants and Duress left in game 2? Keep LEDs? Keep IGG?

Pulp_Fiction
04-02-2009, 06:37 PM
@matelml: Ur welcome :) I play lots o' combo so I am just helpful all around!

gamegeek2
04-02-2009, 08:27 PM
3 Gemstone Mine
3 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp

4 Brainstorm
3 Mystical Tutor
1 Ponder
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Chrome Mox
2 Cabal Ritual
2 Ad Nauseam
1 Orim's Chant
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony

--- Sideboard ---
2 Pyroclasm
2 Orim's Chant
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Thoughtseize
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Telemin Performance
1 Grim Tutor
1 Meltdown
1 Scrubland

I find it kinda funny that I came up with this list after reading about AnT variants with red, and after reading the GP coverages, it turned out that it's MD is one card off from Kolowith's (1 Iggy instead of 1 Ponder). Telemin performance was added after seeing Kolowith's list.

The maindeck Iggy may seem strange, especially with AdN getting to flip it, but it sped up the deck, allowing for more consistent kills.

nodahero
04-02-2009, 10:07 PM
What do u mean it was one card off? The ponder vs ill-gotten gains confused the shit out of me.

gamegeek2
04-02-2009, 11:13 PM
I mean I run an Ill-Gotten Gains in the main where Kolowith ran a Ponder.

JohnnyCage
04-03-2009, 02:07 AM
So I ran the eight blast version tonight in a tourney into a meta full of counterbalance and landstill and even a tog...i wanted to see if the deck could really take it and stand up thnks to blast...I was quite pleased when i went the entire night 5-1 only losing in finals to red thresh and one....NASTY AdN...it literally went..2...2...4...5...4...i was not a happy camper...but the spirit guides and blast were amazing...the only thing i would change is board...i dont feel we need 3 chains...most stuff we bounce goes up to hurklyls....i want two more tendrils actually...at least to test and try a double tendrils plan...perhaps even try boarding bob again...whats the thoughts peeps?

mercc
04-03-2009, 12:21 PM
I'm going to play in the Scandinavian Masters in sweden, i have no clue about the meta, but my guess is there will be it's fair share of blue with and without CB but other decks as well. The most versatile version i like is the one with the LED-tutor package.

4 LED
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Ad Nauseum
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Thoughtseize
4 Duress

4 Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Delta
3 Strand
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Volcanic Island
2 Sea
2 City of traitors

The slots i twiddle with is
+- 1 ponder
+- 1 tendrils
+- 1 chrome mox
+- 1 IGG

But for my sideboard i wanna transition to fully compete with threshold and CB.

4 Simian spirit guide
4 pyroblast
3-4 red elemtal blast
1 Badlands
3-4 Bounce (wipe away, hurkyls, echoing)

gamegeek2
04-03-2009, 12:26 PM
I don't think SSG is very good because of Ad Nauseam. Also, it doesn't add to the storm count.

I also don't see why you don't run Burning Wish - you have red...

mercc
04-03-2009, 01:36 PM
Someone else posted that SSG doesn't pose a serious life threat.

And the deck isn't red, it just has a red sideboard, I dont have space to have a sorcery-sideboard.

nodahero
04-03-2009, 04:12 PM
Do not run SSG... For the love of god... Dont run it. Add like an additonal red fetch and another land if you must... but DONT RUN SSG...

That is all.

gamegeek2
04-03-2009, 05:43 PM
You're not playing wish and only running 3 Infernal Tutor? Especially with LEDs...

You're siding in SSG/Red blast to compete with thresh? Why not run a single Scrubland to fetch and Orim's Chants instead? Considering you run Tutor, you should probably cut City for Gemstone Mine/Fetches and Scrubland to play a single Chant main.

Seriously
04-03-2009, 06:04 PM
hi, I've never been on this thread before. but it looks exactly like someone took TES and stuck some fetchlands in it. what am I missing ?



:confused:

Jaiminho
04-03-2009, 06:19 PM
hi, I've never been on this thread before. but it looks exactly like someone took TES and stuck some fetchlands in it. what am I missing ?



:confused:

Reading the other 41 pages.

ColeM
04-03-2009, 06:22 PM
@the concept of 8 blasts for protection:
Since I haven't had the time to conduct any testing as of late, can anyone tell me how this configuration has held up vs. blue based control post-sideboarding? I'm a bit concerned about the increased effectiveness of blue blasts on this protection package.

I also think one can manage playing Simian Spirit Guides in the 8 blast setup as long as the metagame is heavily blue control oriented. I’ve run lists with similar casting cost configurations with success as long as Lightning Bolts were not being cast at my dome on a regular basis.

mercc
04-04-2009, 01:38 AM
Do not run SSG... For the love of god... Dont run it. Add like an additonal red fetch and another land if you must... but DONT RUN SSG...

That is all.

why not in blueheavy meta?

mercc
04-04-2009, 01:40 AM
You're not playing wish and only running 3 Infernal Tutor? Especially with LEDs...

You're siding in SSG/Red blast to compete with thresh? Why not run a single Scrubland to fetch and Orim's Chants instead? Considering you run Tutor, you should probably cut City for Gemstone Mine/Fetches and Scrubland to play a single Chant main.

I don't like seeing IT when I don't have LED. But i like seeing LED, as I can do something with it when i have IGG/Mystical/Brainstorm/IT

Chant doesn't do anything vs. CB. It's just another 1cc-reveal. We are talking about how to deal with CB, as kolowith had no chance vs. it

nodahero
04-04-2009, 04:08 AM
Actually Kowloith did have a chance against it. I should know I was watching the match from right behind him. You can see me in the photos. The problem was that, yes game one he lost he expected to lose that one unless he had the nuts... Game two however he simply got poor draws for his plan. He intended to sit back and draw into rituals with his Shusher in play (which he did have and which stayed the WHOLE game since Probasco took out his "removal" (I think)) but then he drew nearly no accelerants to push through Ad nauseam with shusher backup.

However, merely because he had the shusher stick around does not mean I think it is sufficent hate for CB. I do feel that if one is going to state "facts" they should be factual and not assumptions. Personally after playing storm since the days of real Iggy Pop I think either K-Grip or Wipe Away trully are the absolute best solutions. Those blasts will be strictly worse than shusher should a Balance resolve. I would much rather have a solution post Balance then prior to balance(there is a biger window to find an answer).

mercc
04-04-2009, 05:08 AM
I also played IGGYpop a long while ago, placing 2nd in a big tourney in sweden. Losing to Threshold with FoW, the problem of the time with lots of IGGs.

I haven't played in a while since then, but as i read about it, CB is the worst card to face.

I bet good players places a 3cc on top vs wipe and grip. So, why would we be in good shape if it resolves? Pyroblast acts before it.

JohnnyCage seemed to have sucess with the blastplan with SSG. But in my meta that isn't healthy to be in the maindeck. I'd like the solid version, with a good sideboarding plan against blue.

I think there are to few posts regarding sideboard strategy, the maindeck is already good.....

vs. Threshold with CB
-LEDpackage +Wipe away/grips/blasts?

vs. Deadguy Ale
- ? +Confidant? IGG?

vs. Merfolk/Slivers
- LED + chant/grips/blasts?

I don't know, can someone with experience of this fill in the blanks? :)

nodahero
04-05-2009, 03:35 AM
So after alot of thinking and goldfishing with my current list it finally really clicked as opposed to a light nudge in the back of my mind... The key to mulligaining really is a statistics game based on what you want. For example with the following hand you have a 40% chance to win on turn 2 assuming you are on the play with the following:
Dark Rit
Dark Rit
Infernal Tutor
Ad Nos
Mystical Tutor
Ponder
LED

Prior to that real click I would have ditched that hand no matter what I was up against.. now though I am beginning to realize that I really need to start figuring out at what percent chance to win on turn x should I keep vs mull. While having protection is paramount in our blue world I think my more relevant skill to master is at what percent can any hand be good enough to keep based on percentages. I realize it is entirely based on the opposing deck but I was wondering if anyone has a general range they keep vs mull on agaisnt opposing decks.

rsaunder
04-05-2009, 11:13 AM
I feel like it's almost universally the wrong decision, though, to keep a hand like that with no initial mana sources. Even with all that accell against aggro, it doesn't take much to mess you up.

emidln
04-05-2009, 02:42 PM
That hand loses to a duress effect + a competent opponent. If they duress a Dark Rit, then you don't automatically win the turn you draw a mana source.

mercc
04-10-2009, 05:14 AM
I'm going to play this weekend, big tourney in sweden.
I'll post back.

I play a U/B version with the LED-package main with only duress as protection.

My SB is:
4 confidant / Orim's chant + 1 tundra
4 pact of negation
2 slaughter pact
1 wipe away
1 echoing truth
2 XXXXX (which i'll figure out there)

Shriekmaw
04-10-2009, 01:07 PM
I feel like it's almost universally the wrong decision, though, to keep a hand like that with no initial mana sources. Even with all that accell against aggro, it doesn't take much to mess you up.


I think a lot of your problems would get solved if you just cut infernal tutor and LED. The deck would be way more stable.

HdH_Cthulhu
04-10-2009, 02:11 PM
I think a lot of your problems would get solved if you just cut infernal tutor and LED. The deck would be way more stable.

But way less explosive. What cards should replace LED and Infernal Tutor?

Shriekmaw
04-10-2009, 02:43 PM
But way less explosive. What cards should replace LED and Infernal Tutor?

I would go with 3 Pacts of Negation, 1 Tendrils (2nd), 1-2 Cabal Rituals (4), 1 Wipe Away, and 1-2 Thoughtseize.

It all depends on the number of c.rituals you play main deck. I think most versions run at least 2. You want the ability to find cards in the deck to set up the win. The main goal is to find and protect Ad Nas and just win.

I understand your aggro matchup may go down a little, but this version is awesome against the blue decks.

Muradin
04-10-2009, 03:43 PM
So are you still playing with chants in the versions without Infernal Tutor or are you going just UB? Are those lists quite similar to the LED-less version that made day 2 at GP Chicago or did those lists already evolve?
Do you ever find yourself needing more business spells or is 2 Ad Nauseam usually enough for you to combo out consistently?

mercc
04-11-2009, 09:17 AM
This is a good led-less version with tundra and chant in the board.
It's the battle against FoW and Daze you want to win with Pact of negation
I'm having thoughts on playing it but I don't like 3 mox diamond in the main, I guess you need it when you play Ad nauseum to get mana.. but before nauseum it's just bad.

4 Underground Sea
2 City of Traitors
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
3 Mox Diamond
3 Cabal Ritual
2 Sensei's divining top
2 Tendrils of Agony
2 Ad Nauseam
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Duress
4 Pact of Negation
1 Chain of Vapor


Sideboard:

3 Orim's Chant
3 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Angel's Grace
3 Slaughter Pact
1 Tundra
1 Wipe Away
1 Echoing Truth

kicks_422
04-11-2009, 09:48 AM
It looks like a lot of work to get a Tendrils in hand once you've cast Ad Nauseam and get to low life before hitting Tendrils. You'd have to Mystical and/or Brainstorm/Ponder into it.

Zir
04-11-2009, 10:16 AM
I doubt that's much of a problem, since you'll have cards and mana to spare once Ad resolves. It does look a bit vulnerable to chalice at 1 though. You literally have no way to get rid of it.

mercc
04-12-2009, 04:29 AM
I played the led-less deck this weekend at the Scandinavian Masters in sweden, i'll post back later on how it went. Yes, getting tendrils could sometimes be a problem, but sometimes not.

What ANT deck is tuned to beat chalice at 1? Many play chain of vapor as the only bounce, thus making it impossible to bounce game 1. Even if you play another bounce you can't mystical for it.
I guess that's why he had a board of 3 hurkyls.

Muradin
04-12-2009, 06:13 AM
I simply don't see Mox Diamond being good in this deck. He is really bad with 15 lands in case you play him pre Ad Nauseam and he simply doesn't seem to be necessary in case you can resolve Ad Nauseam. And while I am totally convinced that SDT is the right choice in Doomsday lists (well, he is an essential part of the combo there) I am not sure that he belongs in this deck.
What do you think of cutting SDT for another cantrip like Serum Visions to gain some more fast library manipulation? I don't think that this is optimal, but Mox Diamond has simply been so bad in testing up to now.

mercc
04-12-2009, 10:00 AM
I played the deck without led and missed mox diamonds after resolving ad nauseum. My only illgottengains (it didnt help me all day, stupid of me to copy it from jamie parkes list) shouldve been a mox diamond and a thoughtseize should also've been a mox.

I fizzled when resolving AN from 18, 17, 14 and 10 life during the day. Dunno if it was due to the lack of moxes insteadof my cc4 and cc1 spell or if the deck just felt like taking a shit on me.

With SDT in play, you only need mystical after AN to place tendrils ontop then tap SDT to draw it. SDT and serum does the same otherwise, esarches and filters..

linux-ll-
04-13-2009, 04:52 AM
This is my update version:
// Lands
2 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [IN] Island (1)
1 [A] Swamp (1)
3 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Tropical Island
2 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Spells
3 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [B] Dark Ritual
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
2 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [FUT] Pact of Negation
4 [US] Duress
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [LRW] Ponder
2 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MM] Brainstorm
1 [TSP] Wipe Away

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
SB: 3 [TSP] Angel's Grace
SB: 1 [B] Tundra
SB: 3 [FUT] Slaughter Pact

In my opinion SDT is better than Serums Vision because I play a lot of fetchlands. 2 Mox Diamonds are absolute necessary after resolving Ad Neuseam to get the needed mana quick.
Played last week on a 70 men tournament and went 4:3.
Played Chain of Vapor instead of Wipe Away, mistake.
Played against:
Belcher, he was faster than me... bad match up.
Ichorid, I was faster than him ... good match up.
Ugb Control, I fizzeld both times after resolving Ad on 18 Life ... normally good match up because he donīt play CB
Ugwb Thres, First Game he had CB+SDT but I played Ad Neuseam on 15 life I had to draw a Trendrils because he was able to counter all my "search" spells with CB and Spell with converted mana cost 1. I didnīt draw a Tendrils.
Second Game 4 Round Kill after destroying CB with Krosan Grip.
Third Game lost against Gaddok Teeg because I boarded out my bounce spell for Krosan Grip... I wasnīt able to handle this guy. My mistake. Bad match up.
UGr-Threshold, All three games he had CB+SDT but the in the secound and third match I had Krosan Grip. At this point I realized that Chain of Vapor is very bad because you need a maindeck bounce that can handle CB. Bad match up,
Ugwb-Fish, won both games. He wasnīt a good player. Normaly a bad match up.
Goblins, won both games easly. Good match up.
It was the first time that I played Ad Neuseam. I didnīt make any mistakes except of non boarding Slaughter Pact in against Teeg.
Because of the bad match ups and fizzling two times on 18 life the 4:3 was ok.
Next time it will be better!

mercc
04-13-2009, 05:51 AM
I played a 66 man tourney this weekend with a similar list to linux. But didn't have mox diamonds so i used IGG like jamie parke in chicago.

2 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [IN] Island (1)
2 [A] Swamp (1)
2 [b] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Spells
2 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [b] Dark Ritual
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [FUT] Pact of Negation
4 [US] Duress
1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [LRW] Ponder
2 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MM] Brainstorm
1 [ONS] Chain of vapor

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [MIR] Lion's Eye Diamond
SB: 3 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 2 [FUT] Slaughter Pact

Round 1: GWB Survival
Game 1: After some discard i resolve ANT and win.
Game 2: He had a scary board of extirpate, chant, teeg and maindeck discard. I lose game 2 due to combination of them.
Game 3 he "only" gets discard and i get brainstorm, then duress his chant then win the next turn, phew.

Round 2: Some deadguy brew.
Game 1: After i have used delta for UG sea and used brainstorm and duress, he therapies me for....... sinkhole :) he didn't get much disrupt then I win.
Game 2: In with LED-package. I mull into a pretty random hand with turn 1 IGG. Which I use to set me upp with 4 mana in play thanks to chrome mox and city of traitor which is a good topdeck mode for me, and I leave him with lands and a ritual, he topdecks hypnotic which makes my topdeck mode suck. I lose.
Game 3: Don't remember that much, expect that it went like it should, brainstorm when he duresses and so on. I win.

Round 3: Also some deadguy with discard, confidant, mother of runes
Game 1: I duress his thoughtseize then win 2 turns later when is at 19 and 2 jittecounters, i just make it to 12 storm count.
Game 2: LED-package. about turn 3 i get a quite nasty AN with IGG and AN that deals me 9, but i have 0-mana artifacts to barely make it.

Round 4: GWB Rock
Game 1: I duress and see 2 StP, sakura-tribe elder and other nonimportant stuff. Next turn i resolve AN with 17 life, I die.
Game 2: LED-package and Confidants. I mull and get a turn 1 confidant via chrome mox. He plays swamp, funeral charm on bob.... i was like..... ? Was it the nastiest tech ever, is he a magic-god? Or did i just suffer the most random shit ever? I guess I will die with this question still unanswered. I topdeck brainstorm to see mystical, ritual. Which gives me a win a couple of turns later. But he thoughtseizes my tendrils then extirpates it. Hurray.

Round 5: Loam-Geddon-Terravore something.
Game 1: I win the die roll. Turn 1 rit-rit-AN. I win.
Game 2: I mull into a turn 1 win with LED-Inf tutor, ritual and some other stuff. I was afraid of chalice from him as it would make me scoop. But he played savannah -> Llanowar elves. I win on my first turn again.

Round 6: Painter-Grindstone with maindeck red blasts.
Game 1: I mull to 5 but somehow manages to win when I have 2 lands in play and a lotus petal and a mysical tutor, PoN, ritual, land on hand. He has left a red mana open the entire game. So if i mystical on his end step i can't protect it with PoN, so I do it on my upkeep via lotus petal, he tries to blast it, I PoN it and fetch AN to draw it then play it and Win. Phew.
Game 2: I set it up to play AN with PoN protection, he tries to FoW my AN, but i PoN it, I have 18 life.

.. This is where the whole tournament takes a nasty turn. This is a 7-round tourney, I have 4-1 in matches and leads round 6 with 1-0 in games and resolve AN with 18 lives to spare. I should be 5-1 and draw in to top8 right? right?! I fizzle.

Game 3: I mull into a nonland hand with petal, ponder, brainstorm, sensei. Mull to 5 or break petal to find a land? I keep and brainstorm via petal, no land, only a chrome mox which i imprint and then play sensei. He has boarded in goyfs. And I resolve AN when I'm at 4. Karma gods, do me good? No.

4-2 I still can win the last round to top8.

Game 7: Mono-U fish with stifle, daze, FoW, spellstutter sprite and vendillion clique. sigh..
Game 1: He beats with merfolk until im at 10. I play duress to take his only relevant spell and see a cursecather. I pass the turn and he doesn't play it? Hmm. Did he draw stifle or FoW as cursecather was his only blue card in hand, I play AN, he FoWs, I PoN it. 10 life is not enough.
Game 2: He has 3 cursecathers in play. I duress his only relevant spell. I resolve AN at 14 life, first card i flip is AN...... then his Nether Void in play is to much for my other spells. I lose.

Summary:
PoN is a f**king house. But come with a SB that can replace it as it is a blank card in some matchups. I expected a lot of blue, but got paired with GWB/GB/BW deadguys, expect for one amazing fizzle at 18, it was a good matchup.

Didn't face a single CB all day. Hmm? So i didn't experience what linux did. My chain of vapor didn't do anything anyway the entire day. Expect only dealing me 1 when flipping it with AN.

Why did i play IGG...? :( It bolted me for 4 atleast 3 or 4 times during the day, should've been a mox diamond. It only helped me once after SB when i got the led-package, of course.

Now I understand why they play angel's grace. It's not a win-more card. it's a card that you need when fighting blue beats backed up with FoWs, dazes and stifles. You can wait until you are low on life, then resolve AN with help from duress and PoN then grace it to flip the deck and win. They still have a lot of dead cards against you. I duressed the fish player and he had nothing. Expect for beats and ofcourse an occasional counter that i took with duress. But since you can't all-in-AN you take too much damage from beats.

And as always, I need a better board. Don't think the led-package is good enough. To much boarding-in-boarding-out cards that makes it random.

This deck.... with the right build and right pilot. Man, it's good.

All-in all i'm pleased with 4-3. and so close to top 8 in round 6. But i guess this deck comes with a heavy price in AN. as it is I win or I-shit-on-you.

Fistandantilus
04-13-2009, 07:25 PM
Might Conflagrate be good in this deck?

Noman Peopled
04-13-2009, 07:35 PM
Might Conflagrate be good in this deck?
Short answer: no.
Middle-sized version: you will have enough cards for it nowhere near often enough, let alone mana. Storm is awesome, why replace it with something that's more conditional? The only "problem" with Tendrils in a deck like this is that it's not even more busted, i.e. cheaper.

Fistandantilus
04-13-2009, 07:46 PM
Short answer: no.
Middle-sized version: you will have enough cards for it nowhere near often enough, let alone mana. Storm is awesome, why replace it with something that's more conditional? The only "problem" with Tendrils in a deck like this is that it's not even more busted, i.e. cheaper.

Well, it only costs RR when flashed back, and that shouldn't be too much of a problem. I've often had a LOT of cards in hand after casting AdN. The problem with Tendrils is that it hurts to draw two of them off of an AdN, and costs 4 mana compared to Conflagrate's 2 (flashed back). Too often, I don't draw Tendrils when I need to, because I can only have so many in the deck, because it hurts too much when drawn off of an AdN.

Since Conflagrate only causes 1 life loss when drawn with AdN, might it not be worth it to play it alongside Tendrils (EDIT: or alongside Grapeshot)?

EDIT: Additionally, Conflagrate's ability to discard cards provides another way to get Hellbent for IT.

Noman Peopled
04-14-2009, 04:08 AM
Well, it only costs RR when flashed back, and that shouldn't be too much of a problem. I've often had a LOT of cards in hand after casting AdN.
If you have 20+ cards consistently after going off, go for it. You can't use LED to put Conflagrate in your graveyard or pay for it post-combo though since you'll have no cards left.


Since Conflagrate only causes 1 life loss when drawn with AdN, might it not be worth it to play it alongside Tendrils (EDIT: or alongside Grapeshot)?

EDIT: Additionally, Conflagrate's ability to discard cards provides another way to get Hellbent for IT.
Personally, I can't always reach a storm count of 19 for Grapeshot so I use Tendrils anyway. (Obviously this is different for Doomsday variants.)
Getting hellbent is only ever an issue if you have too many lands or too many AdNs/IGGs/win conditions and no LED. That's a fair amount of time, admittedly, but ID is also decent without hellbent. Conflagrate needs RRR in order to support ID in any case.

//edit: if you worry about CMC and are red anyway, try BWish.

Fistandantilus
04-14-2009, 03:05 PM
If I follow up Conflagrate with Grapeshot (or, as I imagine, a couple of Grapeshots), then I won't need to draw 20+ cards off of AdN. I wasn't thinking of killing with a Conflagrate by itself. Plus, if the highest CMC in my deck (other than a single copy of AdN) is 2, then I probably will be able to draw quite a few more cards off of AdN than I could have if my library had contained Tendrils.

If I play Grapeshot twice, then I'll only cause one point less life loss than if I had played Tendrils once. Very often, that one point won't make much difference, since it's likely that my opponent has cracked a fetchland. If I run 4 copies of Grapeshot in my library, then I probably won't need 19 storm count. Indeed, if I also play Conflagrate, then I'll need even less storm count for Grapeshots after I turn all of those useless post-AdN lands in my hand into damage. I suspect that I could get by with less storm count than I could have if I had played Tendrils instead.

I am imagining a deck with 4 copies of Grapeshot, 4 copies of IT, no Tendrils, only one copy of AdN, and some quantity of Conflagrate. Other than the single AdN, no spell in the library would be more than 2 CMC. I'd be able to draw lots more cards off of the AdN. I'd have a high likelihood of drawing multiple Grapeshots. Even if I did draw just one Grapeshot, if I also drew an IT, then I'd be able to use the IT (even without hellbent) to grab another Grapeshot. Playing multiple Grapeshots would not be uncommon.

Given the choice between Burning Wish for Tendrils or simply playing two copies of Grapeshot (even if it meant playing IT for the second copy of Grapeshot), I think I'd just as soon do the latter.

I think that Tendrils might not be the best storm kill in a deck that relies on AdN. I'm not sure that I've seen a serious discussion about whether Grapeshot might be a better option than Tendrils in an AdN deck. I admit that I could be barking up the wrong tree here, but I think that Grapeshot is worth a second look, especially in decks that also ran Conflagrate. Being able to run 4 copies of the kill and being able to draw more cards is a big advantage, IMHO.

There's also the possibility of using Grapeshot and/or Conflagrate to buy yourself more time if you don't quite get the full kill. You could potentially wipe out some or all of your opponent's creatures and then finish off your opponent on a later turn with another Grapeshot or Conflagrate. When you're running Tendrils, it's pretty much "do it all in one turn" or lose the game, since you're only running one or two copies of a card that can kill, and have no cards that function to remove the opponent's creature threats.

Again, this is just me thinking out loud. I haven't thoroughly tested the idea, but I wanted to put it out there so that other people could mull it over and/or alert me as to drawbacks that I might not have yet seen.

Piceli89
04-14-2009, 04:18 PM
Again, this is just me thinking out loud. I haven't thoroughly tested the idea, but I wanted to put it out there so that other people could mull it over and/or alert me as to drawbacks that I might not have yet seen.

First of all, there are certain situations where reaching a storm count of 9-10 is really more easy than , say, reaching one of 18-19-20. For example, in those MUs where you are in a difficult position (most of all, when you're expecting some counters from the opponent), tendrils is way more better: you can just bluff that you're going to drop mana accelerants and the final shot in a tutor, make them waste some spells on certain spells ( for example, on duress/orim's chant), so that you can increase the storm count and cast the lethal tendrils, which of course they didn't expect to. I assure you that i met this kind of situations, and surely a grapeshot instead of tendrils wouldn't have helped me.
Not to mention that tendrils is the perfect card to combine after a Ill-Gotten Gains loop, which helps you reaching easily the fatidical 10-count , and cast the kill spell. Which is better, to have tendrils or grapshot in this situation?

Moreover, i'm assuming that playing several kill spells (3 or 4, for instance ) would compromise too much your possibility to "tutor , and not draw them ": having 4 copies of a card which is stricly useful most of the times onl as a tutor target means that you'll be more likely, sometimes, to draw it, even in 2-ofs : and having 2 kill spells in your hand almost means you have -2 cards in your hand, which you would happily trade away with other. I know there's the brainstorm/top+ shuffle effect engine, but it's not always there, and arguing that you'd like to run 4 grapeshots IMO really subjects you to the aforementioned risks.

I play TES and sometimes, opening with a Tendrils in hand , whereas i'd rather want the missing tutor/accelerant i need for to get the perfect t1/t2 kill, is just plain frustrating. I can't even imagine how this could be even worse in a deck playing less acceleration (which means, more tutors/cantrips) and 4 kill spells: you'd probably waste some resources suffling back /thinning the unwished kill spells on the top of library/in your hand.
I think that the right quantity of a kill spell should be in 1, maximum 2-ofs; higher that that, there's the danger it becomes too much an initial dead card worsening your average opening hand.

Ah, and grapeshot would become a card totally depending on Ad nauseam, therefore, a dead card if you don't manage to resolve AN. Really, i guess the right ways to go for a storm combo deck such as this is the old, good "multiple storm enabler+tendrils kill", be it Ad Nauseam+ IGG or Ad Nauseam + Doomsday ( or all of three). Personally, i dislike running a single one, since Meddling Mage, despites being said he's almost disappeared, it still there in certain decks/sbs, and it's more convenient to bypass him through another storm engine rather than tutoring the bounce spell, bounce it and go Ad Nos.Ah, there are (few) situations when someone could even discard+ extirpate AN. I know it sounds incredibly odd and noobish, but it happens.

gamegeek2
04-14-2009, 05:14 PM
This deck is extremely potent in the right hands. And it just needs to play a 5-mana spell to go off, no fancy stuff. A good list, however, won't be totally dependent on AdN to go off. I really like the red lists for this reason. Burning Wish makes the deck extremely reliable; Rite of Flame is explosive (though it may cause some mana problems) and Empty the Warrens is the perfect alternate win when you can't achieve a lethal Tendrils.

4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp

4 Brainstorm
3 Mystical Tutor
1 Ponder
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Duress
1 Orim's Chant
2 Ad Nauseam
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony

--- Sideboard ---
3 Orim's Chant
2 Pyroclasm
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Eye of Nowhere
1 Grim Tutor
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Telemin Performance
1 Thoughtseize
1 Meltdown
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony

Lynx_the_one on the Gleemax forums says that this list has too little protection. I digress - you can play the long game against blue decks and set up a kill. In any case, after boards, you get 3 more Chants to protect yourself with.

Pulp_Fiction
04-14-2009, 11:56 PM
It really doesn't have enough protection. For the longest time I tried to get TES and TES variants/hybrids to work in my CB infested meta but I gave up since it was to unreliable at dealing with that fucking enchantment. Check back in the thread, there are much better lists. Mine is posted (pretty standard U/B/w/g build) with reports a little ways back. The mana problems the deck has are kind of sick and the fact that a single Wasteland can ruin ur day is just bad times.

Noman Peopled
04-15-2009, 04:38 AM
If I follow up Conflagrate with Grapeshot (or, as I imagine, a couple of Grapeshots), then I won't need to draw 20+ cards off of AdN. I wasn't thinking of killing with a Conflagrate by itself. Plus, if the highest CMC in my deck (other than a single copy of AdN) is 2, then I probably will be able to draw quite a few more cards off of AdN than I could have if my library had contained Tendrils.

Some good thoughts were already offered.
The thing with Tendril's mana cost is that you won't need to draw as many cards with AdN. Granted, you will sometimes reveal too much stuff to even reach a storm count of nine, but that's life.
You can't use post-AdN LED mana to put Conflagrate in your graveyard and still have it be useful, let alone casting Gshot afterwards. Conflagrate/Gshot or Gshot/Gshot is also a two-card combo, just as IT/LED, LED/BWish or tutor/cantrip. It would certainly lessen the chance of drawing AdN, Tendrils, IGG somewhat but considering most people only play one Tendrils or two anyway, not by much. At the same time, it will decrease either consistency or disruptive capabilities with slots that are very subpar before you kill.
Playing only one AdN is reckless and should not be done outside of metagames without a trace of blue or black (unless, obviously, you have other engines). No matter how much playing only one would reduce your chances of drawing it, the deck falls apart without a combo engine, and a single discard spell or counterspell could prove disastrous to a one-piece version - also, it would lose some consistency and the ability to imprint AdN.

Two Grapeshots actually deal one damage more than Tendrils (first one deals half exactly, second one deals half plus one). But it's two cards that will do little to further your setup - they don't search, produce mana, or disrupt (except MMs, Canons and Teegs).
If you're unable to draw into two Grapeshots, you'll have to tutor for them (as you mentioned), which costs 3BRR total. Burning Wish for Tendrils costs 3RBB and only one card.


Given the choice between Burning Wish for Tendrils or simply playing two copies of Grapeshot (even if it meant playing IT for the second copy of Grapeshot), I think I'd just as soon do the latter. [quote]
What would you cut?
And why would you play four cards that can remove small creatures and win in multiples rather than playing four cards (not saying this is the right amount of Wishes in any case) that can serve as creature removal, disenchant, IGG, draw, ETW and as a win condition?

The thing is that the deck is already pretty tight, with a lot of mandatory slots. Most people prefer to occupy the rest with some combination of additional rituals and ADNs for speed and consistency, other combo engines such as IGG and Doomsday for consistency and flexibility, or disruption. I just don't see fitting 5+ cards in there that are useless unless you're succesfully going off (Mox Diamond is randomly useful early and doesn't make the cut most of the time).
Your envisioned deck may well win more consistently once you've resolved AdN but if you test it I think you will find that it resolves AdN less often.
In short, I'd rather fizzle than not get the chance to fizzle in the first place.

[quote]When you're running Tendrils, it's pretty much "do it all in one turn" or lose the game, since you're only running one or two copies of a card that can kill, and have no cards that function to remove the opponent's creature threats.
This is not quite true. I have won games with Tendrils for a small amount, then IGG the thing next turn. Or using my limited mana to pick apart my opponent's hand with Duress and going off after the next untap step. I even baited Stifle with Tendrils once or twice, having used my discard spells on counterspells beforehand.
I have also found that most of the time, once I succesfully resolved AdN, killing in one shot wasn't all that difficult, even if I had to wait a turn sometimes, and sometimes that killed me or I fizzled. Needless to say, if you're paying fifteen life, passing your turn is always a liability and killing in one shot is prudent.



A shame, really, because I like Conflagrate. By all means, test it. I wouldn't be too hopeful for the reasons outlined above. If it only were an instant, I'd be all over Necrologia.

gamegeek2
04-15-2009, 06:29 AM
It really doesn't have enough protection. For the longest time I tried to get TES and TES variants/hybrids to work in my CB infested meta but I gave up since it was to unreliable at dealing with that fucking enchantment. Check back in the thread, there are much better lists. Mine is posted (pretty standard U/B/w/g build) with reports a little ways back. The mana problems the deck has are kind of sick and the fact that a single Wasteland can ruin ur day is just bad times.

What do you suggest, then, for more protection? Red is simply amazing in the options it offers.

Fistandantilus
04-15-2009, 11:26 AM
Some good thoughts were already offered.

. . .

If it only were an instant, I'd be all over Necrologia.

OK, good points.

Thanks for alerting me to Necrologia, too. :tongue: I wonder if one could use Quicken in conjunction with Conflagrate and Necrologia to do something interesting.

EDIT: But then, Necrologia actually might draw you fewer cards than AdN on average, because with Necrologia, you're also paying 1 life for the lands and other 0 CMC spells.

ReAnimated
04-15-2009, 03:02 PM
So I just got a question. How does this deck fight off extripate if your not running burning wish? Do you just extend the hand or is there something I'm missing here.

matelml
04-15-2009, 03:17 PM
The only time they should get a chance to Extirpate ToA, their lifetotal<0 , at least it should be. When would any beneficial card be in the GY? There is also Chant and Duress (Duress doesn't always work in this situation) if you want to use IGG.

gamegeek2
04-15-2009, 07:07 PM
What about Extract (failing Burning wish)...very narrow hate but still...

kicks_422
04-15-2009, 07:55 PM
The only time I'm afraid of Extirpate with this deck is when they Extirpate after I resolve a Mystical Tutor.

In a meta composed of Goblins, Rock, Ichorid, SuiBlack, Affinity, Zoo/Sligh/Burn, Dreadstill, Thresh, and a whole slew of rogue decks, is combo a good choice? I run a version which also features Doomsday, by the way. It's final deck choice time. :tongue:

Misplayer
04-16-2009, 10:14 AM
Hey all, I'm in the process of putting an ANT list together but I have some questions. First, I play 2 weekly local events with VASTLY different metagames. One is CB/Top: Play it or be played by it (I play it) and the other is wide open - one week there are 4 Ichorid lists, the next week 3 Survival Lists, etc. You can depend on usually seeing some sui black variants, various swarm aggro strategies, 2+ burn decks and 1-2 Thresh decks. With that information, here's what I want to know:

1a. Counterbalance - What's the best hate? I'm going to roll with Wipe Away main and K. Grip side but good players float 3.
1b. Counterbalance - When is the most effective time to Grip/Wipe Away when you have the read on them floating 3? It seems like you'd want to bait a Top activation with some accel/protection main phase and then go for it when you get priority back but that is extremely mana intensive. I see best case scenario you Mystical Tutor on their end-step as bait, then Grip/Wipe Away when you receive priority again, but they receive it first after CB trigger resolves because they're still the active player, correct? Again, we're talking about very good players here (duh, they're playing CB/Top).
2. In what matchups does Dark Confidant come in? The aforementioned sui-black variants, hoping they board out removal and you can recover against their discard? Is he used as a man-plan, a draw engine, or (presumably) both? I'd imagine the draw engine is the more critical component here, but I feel like there have to be better sideboard cards.
3. How necessary is Orim's Chant? It seems like PoN/Duress package is pretty superior and allows you to maintain a more stable manabase. I plan on boarding Tundra/Angel's Grace for burn specifically as you can usually only safely Ad Nauseam from 14 down to 8 against them, although PoN seems strong here.
4. Looking at these questions, I guess most of my questions are sideboard related. I plan on SBing the LED/Inf Tutor package so that's 7 slots right there. The other 8 will obviously be different for the different metagames. Suggestions? Thanks in advance!

Pulp_Fiction
04-16-2009, 11:13 PM
What do you suggest, then, for more protection? Red is simply amazing in the options it offers.

This is what I play, I have yet to find any protection spells aside from Duress and Chant that are consistently good across all matchups you may face. This is what I run and really enjoy it:

4x LED
4x Dark Ritual
4x Lotus Petal
4x Duress
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Brainstorm
3x Infernal Tutor
3x Ponder
4x Orim's Chant
3x Cabal Ritual
3x Chrome Mox
2x Ad Nauseam
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x IGG
1x Krosan Grip

4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
1x Island
1x Underground Sea
1x Bayou
1x Tropical Island
1x Tundra
1x Scrubland

Sideboard

3x Xantid Swarm
2x Slaughter Pact
2x Krosan Grip
2x Sensei's Diving Top
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Tendrils
1x IGG
1x Echoing Truth
1x meta slot (Chain of Vapor or Hurkyl's Recall/Rebuild usually)

Shriekmaw
04-17-2009, 04:02 PM
The major concern a lot of people have when I talk about playing this deck in a major tournament is the matchup against blue decks. After a lot of playtesting with different builds, I came to the realization that cutting LED and Infernal tutor from the deck was the best call.

This allows you to stay with 2 colors and more protection in pact of negation main deck. I found another reason you lose to especially the tempo decks is the land base. It is very important to have a stable land base that plays with basic lands.

My version may be slower against the aggro decks, but its still a very good matchup with the ability to still with turn 1 or 2 via Ad Naseum.

If you test the LEDless Tendrils, you will be quite surprised how good it is against blue decks in general.

Misplayer
04-17-2009, 04:19 PM
@nickrit - what protection from Counterbalance do you run, aside from Duress?

B.C.
04-17-2009, 05:18 PM
After a lot of playtesting with different builds, I came to the realization that cutting LED and Infernal tutor from the deck was the best call...

Yeah, you've mentioned that... repeatedly. Some people are sold on the idea, some aren't (including me). I've tested it a little, and for me it was just too slow and didn't have enough gas. Right now I'm running a list that is very similar to Pulp_Fiction's list that he just posted. I'm not brazenly claiming that it's the best, but it's the build I prefer.

mercc
04-17-2009, 05:45 PM
There is the tourney I played in.
http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?event=Scandinavian+Masters+Legacy+%2F+GothCon+09

I lost to the decks placing #2 and #6 to be cut out of the top8 :(

gamegeek2
04-19-2009, 03:32 PM
I really don't like the idea of playing without LED/Tutor. That's the deck's strongest engine, and it becomes much less consistent without it.

mercc
04-20-2009, 06:57 AM
What do you do against blue then when you have to empty your hand?

matelml
04-20-2009, 08:04 AM
What do you do against blue then when you have to empty your hand?

First playing a Chant or Duress seems like a good plan. You usually can combo really fast without protection, which is of course a gamble, but pays off at times, or you have a hand with Chant/Duress/Ponder/Brainstorm and sculpt until you can combo with protection. The only thing discarding your hand to LED changes is that you can do this earlier.

alderon666
04-20-2009, 11:34 AM
I really don't like the idea of playing without LED/Tutor. That's the deck's strongest engine, and it becomes much less consistent without it.

I also think it's the strongest part of the deck, being able to put Ad Nauseam on the top of your library then saccing LED on upkeep and playing it on your draw step is just a beating against deck that don't run counters. And those that do give you more time to set up.

mercc
04-20-2009, 04:21 PM
What do you guys think is the best setup vs. blue then even after sideboard?
You would want to play the LED-package after SB also or PoN?

Shriekmaw
04-20-2009, 04:49 PM
@nickrit - what protection from Counterbalance do you run, aside from Duress?


I play Chain of Vapor and Wipe Away main deck. There are more answers in the board.

matelml
04-23-2009, 09:51 AM
What do you guys think is the best setup vs. blue then even after sideboard?
You would want to play the LED-package after SB also or PoN?

I keep LED package against blue postboard. This does mean my CB matchup is pretty bad. I also play 1 PoN Sb to board in against fast blue deck, which I've liked thus far.

Misplayer
04-23-2009, 10:41 AM
I play Chain of Vapor and Wipe Away main deck. There are more answers in the board.

This doesn't seem like enough to me, maybe because I play in a CB-infested meta. Chain of Vapor is not an answer to Counterbalance, and with Wipe Away I'd imagine you have to either hard-cast Ad Nauseam to find it, and have enough non-counterbalance-able mana to play Wipe Away, and then combo out, or find your single Wipe Away before Goyf beats your face.

In my limited experiences with the deck, beating blue (i.e. Force of Will) is not very difficult, but beating blue (i.e. Counterbalance) is the real challenge, yet I only see questions about beating generic blue on this thread. Why aren't more ANT players concerned about Counterbalance? Does this deck have any chance against a Top->Counterbalance->Goyf opening? Grip/Wipe Away is far too slow in this scenario. Seeing how this represents ~40% of the format, what's the gameplan here? emidln's 8 Red Blasts maindeck is the best plan I've seen, but aside from that I'm seeing very few answers.

gamegeek2
04-23-2009, 11:58 AM
My latest list.

4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
3 Swamp
1 Island

4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Chrome Mox
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Mystical Tutor
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Duress
3 Pact of Negation
2 Ad Nauseam
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Doomsday
1 Meditate
1 Wipe Away

It's a bit land-light, I want to find a way to work more land in there. Here are the changes I'm looking at:

-1 Swamp
-1 Something
+1 Scrubland
+1 Orim's Chant

sauce
04-23-2009, 12:00 PM
all problems for ad nauseam can be solved by running 4x spell snare in the board.

Pulp_Fiction
04-24-2009, 04:23 PM
all problems for ad nauseam can be solved by running 4x spell snare in the board.

LOLOL actually .... no, it really doesn't. Spell Snare does nothing about a resolved CB or CotV and does nothing against Trinisphere. Plus that is a defensive spell, combo should not play defense ever, you need to have pro-active answers. The reasons SS is terrible: you have to draw it, makes a worthless topdeck after turn 4, and it does nothing once hate cards have resolved.

gamegeek2
04-24-2009, 04:54 PM
LOLOL actually .... no, it really doesn't. Spell Snare does nothing about a resolved CB or CotV and does nothing against Trinisphere. Plus that is a defensive spell, combo should not play defense ever, you need to have pro-active answers. The reasons SS is terrible: you have to draw it, makes a worthless topdeck after turn 4, and it does nothing once hate cards have resolved.

Well, in Vintage TPS is a highly interactive deck, but your point is entirely valid. Spell Snare reduces your relevant spell count significantly, is a terrible topdeck, and doesn't deal with stuff on the board. Wipe Away and Krosan Grip do.

Dark_Cynic87
04-29-2009, 12:16 PM
My latest list.

4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
3 Swamp
1 Island

4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Chrome Mox
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Mystical Tutor
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Duress
3 Pact of Negation
2 Ad Nauseam
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Doomsday
1 Meditate
1 Wipe Away

It's a bit land-light, I want to find a way to work more land in there. Here are the changes I'm looking at:



If you want an adn hybrid with doomsday, drop the ponders for top. To play D-Day, they are crucial, and 4-of is more than necessary. I see no purpose to run 2x AdN in the maindeck, and even less of a purpose to play 2x Tendrils.

The pacts are cute, but mainly and primarily useless as they are only good if you are playing against a bad player. The have no use in the early game, and rarely will you have one in your hand to protect your Ad Nauseam. They are dead after ad nauseam since you have chants/duresses/P-Blasts which are all functionally superior to Pact. I'd go down to 3x IT and up the Mysticals to 4x.

1x Island is useless, and in my opinion should always be 2x, because Blood Moon can make your one Island useless because Wipe Away, your only answer to it after it's played, costs 2 blue mana. I know you have chrome mox and petals, but you run 8x fetches to grab basics, where only infernal tutors can grab artifacts.

You only need 1x Swamp, because that's all it takes to get going off of a ritual.

Also, I recommend picking a 3rd color, either red or white. These give a truly good 2nd protection spell, whether it's Pyroblast or Orim's Chant, and also give you more options for your SB, be it Serenity or Ancient Grudge/Shattering Spree. I'd say red as you already have mires in there. I'm playing a list that runs 4x Duress, 4x Pyroblasts, and 1x to 2x Chants in the maindeck. I play 5-c including the sb, but it's straight d-day. I did play the Hybrid for a while, and it did well enough, but I went back to D-Day because of it's ability to really shine in a control metagame. Here's what I would do with your list.
Lands--15
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp
2 Island

Spells--45
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Chrome Mox
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Mystical Tutor
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Duress
4 Pyroblast
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Doomsday
1 Meditate
1 Wipe Away

I don't understand why you didn't include an IGG in the list, so I dropped one in as it's your primary win condition against discard, and a few other lists. I hope you try this out. I think you will see the cards to better than Pact, and the numbers should be more well-rounded than your current list's.

Pce,

--DC

gamegeek2
04-29-2009, 12:22 PM
Oh yeah, there is an Iggy in there somewhere...if not I need to change that immediately.

You can still play white with Mires...which can grab basic Swamps as well...

2 Tendrils may not be necessary, I'm considering cutting one for a fourth Top. 2 Ad Nauseam is necessary however, it's the best path to victory...

Dark_Cynic87
04-29-2009, 01:06 PM
Oh yeah, there is an Iggy in there somewhere...if not I need to change that immediately.

You can still play white with Mires...which can grab basic Swamps as well...

2 Tendrils may not be necessary, I'm considering cutting one for a fourth Top. 2 Ad Nauseam is necessary however, it's the best path to victory...

Ad Nauseam is my last choice for my combo turn. My first is Doomsday, as I win if it resolves. Ad Nauseam does not promise the win, and drops me low in life. IGG is my second choice, as it's an auto win against anything not packing blue or chants or Extirpate, which is obviously better because against Zoo, you will be well below your beginning 20 life, and if you don't get the win (I know you almost always do) or they have a trick up their sleeve to stop your combo (example: Vial out a Teeg in response to Ad Nauseam), you either have to pass your turn and let the AdN fizzle, or you have to hope you draw a few good cards and find a way to stay alive until your next turn, PLUS you have to find a way to get around the Teeg.

Basic swamps are covered by your Deltas, but Mires can't fetch your Islands. I like a 4/3/1 split on my fetches Deltas/Strands/Mires respectively. I didn't say that playing white was worse than red, I simply stated that it looked like the best direction to take it because I knew you have Mires because of your list. If you want to go white, change the lands accordingly, although I must stress that red is in fact better than white in any metagame where CB is a legitimate and often-played threat.

Pce,

--DC

gamegeek2
05-01-2009, 10:44 AM
What I mean by first choice is that it is the easiest path to victory to set up, and if you can force it through, you can easily have enough resources to get through most defenses.

Here's my revised list:

4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Swamp
2 Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra

4 Mystical Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Duress
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Orim's Chant
3 Chrome Mox
2 Cabal Ritual
2 Ad Nauseam
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Doomsday
1 Meditate
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Wipe Away

I think I need to cut 1 card...

Shriekmaw
05-01-2009, 04:13 PM
This doesn't seem like enough to me, maybe because I play in a CB-infested meta. Chain of Vapor is not an answer to Counterbalance, and with Wipe Away I'd imagine you have to either hard-cast Ad Nauseam to find it, and have enough non-counterbalance-able mana to play Wipe Away, and then combo out, or find your single Wipe Away before Goyf beats your face.

In my limited experiences with the deck, beating blue (i.e. Force of Will) is not very difficult, but beating blue (i.e. Counterbalance) is the real challenge, yet I only see questions about beating generic blue on this thread. Why aren't more ANT players concerned about Counterbalance? Does this deck have any chance against a Top->Counterbalance->Goyf opening? Grip/Wipe Away is far too slow in this scenario. Seeing how this represents ~40% of the format, what's the gameplan here? emidln's 8 Red Blasts maindeck is the best plan I've seen, but aside from that I'm seeing very few answers.


If a blue deck has a top/counterbalance/goyf openning hand, then the chances of you winning the game is very slim regardless of the deck setup. That would be there nuts hand which doesn't happen that often.

I don't understand why people talk about if they have this ('the nuts'), instead of talking about more the average hand then the best hand.

I believe the black/blue tendrils deck without LED gives you the best chance of beating blue on a consistent basis. I've proven this through playtesting and I offer it to you guys as some advice.

Many players will play the 3 or more color version with LED and Chant most likely. I just like consistency, especially now since it seems like every blue deck has wasteland in it.

I agree my version is slower than the others, but I will trade consistency over speed any day of the week.

The goal is the win the game, not to win as quickly as possible.

Bryant Cook
05-01-2009, 04:22 PM
If a blue deck has a top/counterbalance/goyf openning hand, then the chances of you winning the game is very slim regardless of the deck setup. That would be there nuts hand which doesn't happen that often.

I don't understand why people talk about if they have this ('the nuts'), instead of talking about more the average hand then the best hand.

I believe the black/blue tendrils deck without LED gives you the best chance of beating blue on a consistent basis. I've proven this through playtesting and I offer it to you guys as some advice.

Many players will play the 3 or more color version with LED and Chant most likely. I just like consistency, especially now since it seems like every blue deck has wasteland in it.

I agree my version is slower than the others, but I will trade consistency over speed any day of the week.

The goal is the win the game, not to win as quickly as possible.

Have you played against aggro decks? Goblins, Merfolk, Zoo, Disruption based decks? It seems like they'll crush you because of your speed.

Dark_Cynic87
05-01-2009, 04:24 PM
If a blue deck has a top/counterbalance/goyf openning hand, then the chances of you winning the game is very slim regardless of the deck setup. That would be there nuts hand which doesn't happen that often.

I don't understand why people talk about if they have this ('the nuts'), instead of talking about more the average hand then the best hand.

I believe the black/blue tendrils deck without LED gives you the best chance of beating blue on a consistent basis. I've proven this through playtesting and I offer it to you guys as some advice.

Many players will play the 3 or more color version with LED and Chant most likely. I just like consistency, especially now since it seems like every blue deck has wasteland in it.

I agree my version is slower than the others, but I will trade consistency over speed any day of the week.

The goal is the win the game, not to win as quickly as possible.

Ad Nauseam is anything but consistant. The cards you draw are never the same, and casting it doesn't scream I win. You can be at 8 life, flip your second ad nauseam and get bolted for the loss. If you want consistancy, go D-Day.

In a deck that has virtually no blockers, no real removal for creatures and relies on a card that loses you between 90 to 95 percent of your life total and is in fact more valuable the more life you have, the goal is indeed to win as quickly as possible. To say it isn't is nonsense. If you don't want to win as quick as possible, grab your doomsday and only pay half your life, but ad nauseam gets strictly worse the further into mid-game you get, while Doomsday and IGG only get better (obviously depending on the situation. for instance, don't D-Day when Playing against Brain Freeze.dec and certainly don't IGG when they have Force, Force, Stifle in their yard).

Pce,

--DC

EDIT:::

Here's my 60, my sideboard changes on a whim, don't even ask about it:

1 Tendrils
1 IGG
1 AdN
1 D-Day
1 Meditate
3 IT
4 Mystical
4 Duress
4 Pyroblast
1 Wipe Away
1 Chant
4 Petal
4 LED
4 Dark Rit
2 Cabal Rit
4 Brainstorm
4 SDT
4 Delta
3 Strand
1 Mire
1 Swamp
2 Island
1 USea
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic
1 Trop
1 Badlands

Dark_Cynic87
05-01-2009, 04:36 PM
Whoops...

gamegeek2
05-01-2009, 11:30 PM
Ad Nauseam is anything but consistant. The cards you draw are never the same, and casting it doesn't scream I win. You can be at 8 life, flip your second ad nauseam and get bolted for the loss. If you want consistancy, go D-Day.

In a deck that has virtually no blockers, no real removal for creatures and relies on a card that loses you between 90 to 95 percent of your life total and is in fact more valuable the more life you have, the goal is indeed to win as quickly as possible. To say it isn't is nonsense. If you don't want to win as quick as possible, grab your doomsday and only pay half your life, but ad nauseam gets strictly worse the further into mid-game you get, while Doomsday and IGG only get better (obviously depending on the situation. for instance, don't D-Day when Playing against Brain Freeze.dec and certainly don't IGG when they have Force, Force, Stifle in their yard).

Ad Nauseam doesn't nearly lose you 90% of your life. An average AdN will cost you about 10 life. If you're sitting above 10 life, the vast majority of the time you'll be able to win off a single AdN, assuming you have mana floating.

However, I do agree that you need multiple backup plans with this deck. Ill-Gotten Gains is good, but far from enough - Doomsday is highly effective for this purpose.

Mordel
05-02-2009, 06:08 AM
The kicker with DDFT is that the skill level required to pilot it properly in the face of "bad" match ups goes way over the heads of, dare I say, most of the guys that are playing straight resolve AdN, shift into autopilot and win builds.

From what I have gathered talking to Emidln and testing the deck, DDFT has a very malleable combo strategy in that doomsday offers a great deal of flexibility in the face of hate. From the times that I have had the balls to try to pilot the deck and do it justice, I have felt as though I was playing control before in that I would use my life total as a timer basically for waiting for my opponent to make a mistake and go off with a hand that basically got stronger with every turn that ticked by.

I have seen a build that completely hrybridizes the strategy and has a semi-transformational sideboard that allows it to turn into a 100% AdN or Doomsday deck depending on the match as well as packing additional protection pieces etc and I can say with certainty that the build in question is probably the deck that I would least want to see across from me for a few reasons:

-I will have to guess after the first game as to whether I need to try to force them to combo early and fizz out OR if I am going to have to try to focus on getting as much disruption down as possible to fight the doomsday set up. Unfortunately, the DD set up can also pull fairly fast wins out of its ass too.

-Anyone with the chrome-plated balls to bring DDFT to an event is probably a very devious fucker of a combo player that understands the ins and outs of his deck and scenarios.


I'd rather see a straightforward race against a run of the mill AdN deck than a match of guesses in the case of a DDFT hybrid list any day.

Frid
05-02-2009, 08:09 AM
I would like to play DDFT one day, but before i start learning the piles i want to know whats the difference betwen ANT and DDFT (with AN i supose), what about their matchups vs canadian, counterbalance or burn? An actual DDFT with ad nauseam is also welcome :D.

Kisses.

Dark_Cynic87
05-02-2009, 04:28 PM
1 Tendrils
1 IGG
1 AdN
1 D-Day
1 Meditate
3 IT
4 Mystical
4 Duress
4 Pyroblast
1 Wipe Away
1 Chant
4 Petal
4 LED
4 Dark Rit
2 Cabal Rit
4 Brainstorm
4 SDT
4 Delta
3 Strand
1 Mire
1 Swamp
2 Island
1 USea
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic
1 Trop
1 Badlands

Sideboard:

2x Doomsday
1x IGG
2x Orim's Chant
1x Plains
1x Scrubland
2x Krosan Grip
2x Rushing River
1x Rebuild
1x Extirpate
1x Grapeshot
1x Helm


There. Transformational sideboard for my list. All you have to do is drop out Ad Nauseam, you can drop out 1 to 2 IT's, a Cabal Rit, Lotus Petals if you want. I sideboard in the Scrub and Basic in place of 2x Petals and leave one in, dropping the third for a Grip or River. You drop out mostly your Tutors and accel along with AdN because you only ever really want to transform it into DDFT if you are up against control--Thresh, Team America, Landstill, etc.

Against Burn, which I have playtested extensively, IGG is the wisest way to go, and try to do it by turn 2, turn 3 at the latest. DO NOT AdN against them, and definitely do not Doomsday. The reason is that D-Day goes of turn 3, but mostly turn 4 for my build, and by then, with doomsday cutitng your life in half, it's a lightning bolt or Fireblast away from you losing, and they normally have it in hand if it's a good list. Emidln or someone just as competent should speak for Canadian and CB as I have much less experience in those matchups.

Pce,

--DC

kicks_422
05-02-2009, 09:15 PM
DDFT has a much better blue match-up than straight up ANT. That's because you only have to resolve Doomsday, and everything else falls from there. With ANT, resolving Ad Nauseam still isn't a sure way to win. Also, DDFT only needs less slots for the combo itself (2-4 Doomsday, 4 Dark Ritual, 4 Lion's Eye Diamond, 1 Lotus Petal, 1 Ill-Gotten Gains, 4 Brainstorm, 4 Sensei's Divining Top, and 1 Tendrils of Agony), which lets you flesh out the rest of the deck with more lands than ANT, tutors/draw, and/or more protection. My personal DDFT build (which was greatly influenced by emidln's lists) runs 4 Duress, 4 Pyroblast, 4 Orim's Chant, 1 Wipe Away, and 1 Krosan Grip as protection, but can still win on Turn 2-3 if needed.

Straight ANT is still a contender of course - but I don't feel comfortable playing combo without Doomsday anymore. If only more players would take the effort to learn playing the card...

jjjoness'
05-03-2009, 04:31 AM
Doomsday is a great engine, but it really takes a lot of time to feel comfortable with it. I remember playing my first tourney after just a few test games, I failed so miserably, loosing to Aggro Loam and other decks that should be an autowin. Reading emidln's primer on MTGS (though a bit outdated) really helps here.
So for me there's no reason to run straight ANT, since DDay hybrid is fast enough to beat aggro consistently, and has a better matchup against almost all control decks.

I'm currently running something like this list (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=334132&postcount=1051) and so far it has really been a blast to play. (just my manabase is a bit sucky :p)

gamegeek2
05-03-2009, 09:15 AM
Doomsday is must for storm that wants to succeed nowadays. And yes, more D-Days in the sideboard (board out AdN) is an excellent plan vs. counterbalance, especially as you only need to resolve D-Day (and Meditate)

Mordel
05-03-2009, 02:51 PM
You can go off with brainstorm and a top too.

Julian23
05-03-2009, 03:22 PM
Ok, someone has to ask it: Why exactly is Doomsday considered a very demanding (yet rewarding) card? No offense, I never really played this deck to make actual statements about this but what are you referring to? Adjusting your DD-pile to the deck you're facing? Or is it more about creating a gamestate which opens a short window to succesfully cast DD? I'm puzzled..

Mordel
05-03-2009, 03:55 PM
Search button for precise answers.

Off of the top of my head, it isn't just making piles, but the nature of the deck as far as knowing which protection pieces to use, timing and what you need to do to win when hate resolves etc etc.

There are huge posts on the deck all over the internet, many of which are made by Emidln. Look them up.

rsaunder
05-03-2009, 06:32 PM
When you can combo off with what piles against what pieces of hate given your life total, protection, and anticipated disruption.

It's the anticipated disruption and hate bit that makes it more difficult than memorizing piles and basic addition.

Pulp_Fiction
05-03-2009, 06:44 PM
While I don't think Doomsday is required it is still helpful. But regardless, you still take the good with the bad. I personally don't like the idea of Sensei's Diving Top in the place of Ponder, it slows the deck up by about a turn (from my experience); also, leaving the deck vulnerable to Pithing Needle is another downfall. While I like Doomsday I really don't think it is "necessary" in the current meta, it can help yes, and it adds a whole new level of versatility to the deck. I don't think it is necessary but playing a hybrid ANT DD list is certainly not a bad choice.

Dark_Cynic87
05-03-2009, 07:15 PM
The deck is not vulnerable to Pithing Needle. You can, without much difficulty at all, use Brainstorm to break into your D-Day stack. I'd be more worried about them naming a fetch with their Needle than your SDT.

Pce,

--DC

EDIT: Not to mention you run bounce and either K. Grips or Ancient Grudges and Shattering Spree. Needle is irrelevant.

emidln
05-03-2009, 08:54 PM
Doomsday isn't any harder than any other portion of the storm combo deck. It's just another set of choices. The choices with Doomsday are just all compacted togethter ahead of time. If you normally think out your lines of play accounting for an opponent's interaction this isn't really any different for you. I've found that is very different from how most people play storm though, which is why it's perceived as really difficult.

Navigating any storm combo deck through hate is an extreme exercise in resource management and statistics, so much so that Doomsday won't change much. More games will be won or lost on punting Brainstorms, Ponders, Sensei's Divining Top activations, fetchland activations, generally just playing the wrong land, playing protection incorrectly, and impatience than Doomsday piles. The general reason to not take a Doomsday hybrid into an event isn't any particular bad matchups, it's because most people can't handle the pressure of a couple hundred near perfect nonlinear plays to get the same set of Ws and Ls that just flopping a Goyf sideways while saying "RAWR FIVE DAMAGE!" gets you most of the time anyway.

Doomsday, and storm in general, really shines in the hands of a person who really knows their deck and the format. That the deck falls flat on its face at the slightest hint of a mistake and that most people can't identify the correct Brainstorm/Ponder/SDT choices to begin with means very few actually learn from their mistakes because they never realize they made them. Fucking up the order of 5 cards with Doomsday or getting greedy and losing to an Ad Nauseam flip is easy to diagnose. Drawing that Sensei's Divining Top with Ponder instead of the land against a Thoughtseize/Duress deck probably never even registers to you as you think "wow my opponent just had the cards to beat mine" instead of "I'm a fuckup and need to think of all the bad things that are likely to happen to me next time". I wish I could instruct people on how to do this, but I've tried writing about it several times without success (I'm either too poor a writer or have too poor of an understanding to explain it myself).

BTW, Pithing Needle is a problem. That's why I talk about siding against it so much. If you don't know that it's likely to come in and thus board against it, you're going to get wrecked by it. Sure, you can play around it, but it's not easy and becomes really draw dependent. You can also play straight through active CB/Top with Doomsday and a SDT in play (ask some of my opponents) but it's hard and draw dependent. (The problem is that in a hybrid you don't have a any (or a full set) of Ponders so you end up using Brainstorm to setup instead of wanting to use Doomsday for it. Ad Nauseam and Infernal Tutor help tremendously here, but it still hurts.) This is why we bring in KGrip and red blasts. Pithing Needle is why I board in Ancient Grudge against decks that have no relevant artifacts game one.

Dark_Cynic87
05-04-2009, 10:10 AM
I'll keep that in mind, but thus far I've lost once because of a needle. Guess I'm just lucky...

Pce,

--DC

gamegeek2
05-04-2009, 11:57 AM
Considering how so many of us are splashing green for K-Grips out of the board, someone came up with the idea of throwing goyfs in the board. Y'know, board out Ad Nauseam, Chrome Mox, LED, bring in 3 K-Grips and 4 Goyfs, keep in D-Day and Iggy for combo potential.

emidln
05-04-2009, 12:18 PM
You might search a few pages back where B.C. tried that in his UBG list. I don't remember his results with that experiment, but I think the creatures were Goyf + Tombstalker.

Dark_Cynic87
05-04-2009, 09:23 PM
We originally tried that with Counterbalance Tendrils quite a while ago, where it was a transformational sideboard from Storm to UGbw Thresh with Dark Confidants (and then Tombstalker) and Goyfs in the board. The CB thing flopped, though, so we tossed the whole idea. It may work, but I see Tombstalker being the killer and Goyfs just being walls.

Pce,

--DC

Pulp_Fiction
05-05-2009, 04:54 AM
Very true, Goyf out of the board has always seemed like garbage to me. As far as a man-plan sort of sideboard goes, nothing has worked better for me than Tombstalker and Tomb of Urami. I don't think that SB strategy would work for this deck but those are the best options for a transformational SB I have found.

Shriekmaw
05-05-2009, 11:01 AM
Have you played against aggro decks? Goblins, Merfolk, Zoo, Disruption based decks? It seems like they'll crush you because of your speed.


My version does pretty well against aggro decks. It's not as good as if the deck was built with LED, but the win percentage hasn't decreased that much which is why I think its very viable on winning tournaments.

I always believed in a smaller scale tournament (5-6 rounds), TES was a better choice to play, but in a more lengthier tournament, I like the consistency of LEDless Tendrils.

Dark_Cynic87
05-05-2009, 11:20 AM
I wish that anyone not playing LED in their ANT list would post a new primer in the new and developing thread that would keep the conversations separate. Honestly, any Tendrils storm list without LED will play differently, and loses relevance to the current thread as it loses not only LED when you do that, but a way to IGG efficiently (You only need 2x LED and an IT, but without LED you lose the ability to IGG with just 3 cards, you have to have more mana-ramp), and also IT loses much power when you drop the LED's, plus it loses LED, LED, Mystical Tutor-->Ad Nauseam during the upkeep. It's shameless plugging, changes the conversation on the thread (example, your post changed the conversation from creatures in the sideboard to how your matchup is against aggro). This is irritating to me and also considered by most people who do play ANT to be a sub-standard build (this is an assumption, but a good one as you are the only one talking about an LED-less build. If you think it's better, a primer of an LED-less version of ANT/FT would be the place to start. That's what Ichorid did and it works(I might mention that the LED version is in the DTB forum while the LED-less version isn't, flawed logic so far, but only time will tell).

Not trying to rile anyone up, but this should stop. It's almost as bad as trolling.

Pce,

--DC

mercc
05-05-2009, 01:27 PM
You can also play straight through active CB/Top with Doomsday and a SDT in play (ask some of my opponents) but it's hard and draw dependent. (The problem is that in a hybrid you don't have a any (or a full set) of Ponders so you end up using Brainstorm to setup instead of wanting to use Doomsday for it. Ad Nauseam and Infernal Tutor help tremendously here, but it still hurts.) This is why we bring in KGrip and red blasts.

Play through active cb/top? how?

emidln
05-05-2009, 01:49 PM
Play through active cb/top? how?

Doomsday, Meditate, and Krosan Grip all cost 3. The hard part is in the baiting to get your opp to let you resolve an accelerant if you don't have LED on the table already. That's sometimes tricky and usually involves thespian ability as well as a full grip on their end step with alternating mana costs.

Pulp_Fiction
05-05-2009, 03:28 PM
I wish that anyone not playing LED in their ANT list would post a new primer in the new and developing thread that would keep the conversations separate. Honestly, any Tendrils storm list without LED will play differently, and loses relevance to the current thread as it loses not only LED when you do that, but a way to IGG efficiently (You only need 2x LED and an IT, but without LED you lose the ability to IGG with just 3 cards, you have to have more mana-ramp), and also IT loses much power when you drop the LED's, plus it loses LED, LED, Mystical Tutor-->Ad Nauseam during the upkeep. It's shameless plugging, changes the conversation on the thread (example, your post changed the conversation from creatures in the sideboard to how your matchup is against aggro). This is irritating to me and also considered by most people who do play ANT to be a sub-standard build (this is an assumption, but a good one as you are the only one talking about an LED-less build. If you think it's better, a primer of an LED-less version of ANT/FT would be the place to start. That's what Ichorid did and it works(I might mention that the LED version is in the DTB forum while the LED-less version isn't, flawed logic so far, but only time will tell).

Not trying to rile anyone up, but this should stop. It's almost as bad as trolling.

Pce,

--DC

I totally agree about LEDless ANT. It plays different, feels different and takes a different strategy to victory. When we start talking about IGG and what to bring back in certain situations or IT+LED+LED into win someone will just chime in "you know you don't need LEDs, it improves your matchup against blue without them." Thanks, got it! It is really distracting and much like the Dredge threads non-LED Dredge does play quite a bit differently even though they share quite a few cards and emplore different SB strategies. Now, just to clarify why non-LED Dredge is not in the DTB section, people are afraid to play it because it can't win on turn 1 (like LED does this more than 2% of the time anyway) and it is largely unknown since a lot of legacy players didn't play extended when it was legal and thus don't know how damn good it really is. Think of it like this Wintersun and Ensiferum and some of the most talented metal bands you will ever hear but most people don't know about them but basically everyone knows about Disturbed. Does this mean Disturbed is better, not at all, just more well known even though Wintersun and Ensiferum possess far superior musicianship than Disturbed.

mercc
05-05-2009, 03:35 PM
Doomsday, Meditate, and Krosan Grip all cost 3. The hard part is in the baiting to get your opp to let you resolve an accelerant if you don't have LED on the table already. That's sometimes tricky and usually involves thespian ability as well as a full grip on their end step with alternating mana costs.

Doomsday and meditate doesn't win it alone. And we've been playing grips for long now. CB tend to add trygon predator now, like Nassif to have more cc3.

Dark_Cynic87
05-05-2009, 04:40 PM
So what's that, 4x 3cmc cards? 2x Trygon Predator and either 2x Rushing River or 1x Rushing River and a Wipe Away? I'll take those odds, especially when playing grip. That, and there's always going back to using Brain Freeze to make sure they have a blind flip of CB when you K. Grip.

Pce,

--DC

emidln
05-05-2009, 04:47 PM
So what's that, 4x 3cmc cards? 2x Trygon Predator and either 2x Rushing River or 1x Rushing River and a Wipe Away? I'll take those odds, especially when playing grip. That, and there's always going back to using Brain Freeze to make sure they have a blind flip of CB when you K. Grip.

Pce,

--DC

Playing Doomsday into an active CB/Top isn't a gameplan, it's just something that can happen when it falls together. I don't actively seek 10 mana solutions to stuff, but it does actually win the game more often than not (so far I've dispatched people playing Brassman.dec, Dreadstill, UGW Natural Order Thresh, and a couple UGR CB Thresh players with it. I've never actually ran into a 3cc spell when trying it (I've done it roughly 20 times in the last few months) but they don't actually have all that many 3cc spells anyway.

Anyway, for the record Doomsday actually does win it alone with a Top in play. If it resolves you top into Meditate which casts for KGrip which hits CB. Then you play LED, LED, Top and draw into Tendrils. Like I said, 10 mana, very situational, and requires non-trival setup. It's also one of the very few ways for a combo deck to go off with the CB still in play and not be completely wrecked by 95% of the CB flips.

mercc
05-06-2009, 06:49 AM
I'm not saying that it is impossible, i just don't want us to get to cocky.. "pfff, active cb/top, who cares". When some people in this thread would rather die than play vs. cb/top. I just wanted to know the plan :) and sure, they have very few 3cc, but still. after a spin + fetch + spin, they might find it.

But emidln, i see the gameplan with the 3cc spells. But to get to those 10 mana, how can CB not counter the accelerants?

emidln
05-06-2009, 07:55 AM
I don't do this often, but it seems a lot like you're trolling here. I started this whole thing off by saying that it's really hard and unlikely. I then repeat how it's really hard and actually answer how you get them to not CB your accel in yet another previous post (the answer is that you either have already played some number or LED and/or that you bait them on their own end step with some good stuff that alternates casting costs so they have to tap down a lot of mana) and freely admit that it's luck. Seriously, what is cocky about that? I admit that it's completely luck-based, difficult, and situational. The only thing that's might even potentially be cocky (but it isn't because it's completely true) is that we are the only deck that can even hope to win through an active cb/top because of the CMC of our important spells.

jegger
05-06-2009, 08:50 AM
I return to play this deck after 5 months of this deck in my attic.

I'm taking information about the evolution of this deck in these months. I'm reading about the LEDless version and the hybrid-ANT version, but I don't see all these results.
Anyway, this is the "old version style" that gone in final at Annency between 400+ players.


Maindeck:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
2 Underground sea
3 Chrome mox
4 Lotus petal
4 Lion`s edge diamond
4 Dark ritual
3 Cabal ritual
4 Dures
3 Infernal tutor
2 Ad nauseam
1 Ill Gotten-gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Mystical tutor
1 Wipe Away
4 Orimīs chant

Side:
4 Dark confidant
3 Serenity
2 Echoing truth
2 angel grace
1 Plains
1 Ill Gotten-gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Wipe away
4 de mayo de 2009 15:56

I don't like some things both in main and sb, but I see that it's very similar to the first versions of the deck.

mercc
05-06-2009, 01:10 PM
I'm not trolling, sorry if it has come out that way. I always like to play the devil's advocate though.

mercc
05-12-2009, 04:25 PM
I remember something from this thread about the average cc in the deck.
Since my last tournament (which you can read about some page or pages back) where i fizzled pretty good from 18,17 and 14 life i wanted to slim the cc of the deck. (i'm definitly aware of the possibility of fizzling with such a powerful card, but still not liking it and want to avoid it)
I played:
2 ad nauseum
2 tendrils
1 ill-gotten

worth notice is that i played the non-led variant with 4 PoN instead of Infernal tutor.

Later I have seen a decklist which played with LED+Inf and also played:
1 ad nausem
1 tendrils
1 ill-gotten

- That means, after resolving ad nauseum there is no 5cc spell left and only 2 4cc spells left.
- Where as i had 1 5cc spell left and 3 4cc spells left
(not counting the possibility of them being in my hand when i play AdN)
In the middle of the math there is the difference with playing with led+inf or not, as inf is a 2cc-spell that deals you 2 damage, it may also be the card you want and not flipping any more cards.

The problem i had in the tourney is facing down beats with blue countermagic as backup. I had no trouble resolving ad nauseum, as it only takes time with duress and PoN and tuting for it and so on.. but by the time i resolved i was to low on life.

Now, there is a 2-card combo that always wins.... angels grace+ad nauseum. With time it shouldn't be to hard to set up..

building a deck with a second win due to ad nauseums unstable nature(aka doomsday) or just packing grace's for the definite win.. is my next goal :)

linux-ll-
05-13-2009, 04:59 PM
Played on a 26 man tournemant. Made place 4.
My list:
Lands
2 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [IN] Island (1)
1 [A] Swamp (1)
3 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Tropical Island
2 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Spells
3 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [B] Dark Ritual
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
2 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [FUT] Pact of Negation
4 [US] Duress
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [LRW] Ponder
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MM] Brainstorm
1 [TSP] Wipe Away

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [RAV] Dark Confidant
SB: 4 [TSP] Angel's Grace
SB: 1 [B] Tundra
SB: 2 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 [AQ] Hurkyl's Recall

1st Round Landstill: No Problem, wait for two PoN and go off 2:0
2nd Round Ugwb Thres: First Game I go off in 2nd Turn with PoN, Secound Game he keeps a 4 Force + 3 Random Blue Cards Hand and draws Tropical Island, U-Sea, Tarmogoyf, Sensei from top. I was able to Durres him 2 times and had PoN in hand. But He finds the 4th blue card...Third Game I griped his CB and won.2:1
3nd Round Landstill: I get a game loss because of missing 2 Mox Diamonds in my list ... very stupid, won the secound game easily with 2 PoN because I had all the time to find them. Third Game I duressed him, saw 2 Force and 3 Blue Cards, he had a top in play an was tapped out, I had PoN, I go off, he draws AT random with top the 3 Force. Next upkeep I paid for PoN, he played Cunning Wish for Extirpate on Ad Neuseam, I drew 4 Chrome Mox, Tendrils,PoN, Brainstorm and Dark Ritual and killed him without any engine... very cool. 2:1
4th Round Ugb Random List with CS and FoW etc.: Tried a First Round Kill with PoN, but he had 2 Force of Will, Secound Game I Killed him 2 turn, Third Game he played 3xEthersworn Canonist no chance for me.1:2
5th Round Ugw Thres: Won both round without problems. He had an unlucky draw and I think we wasnīt a good player (he needed to read mystical tutor...).2:0
6th Round Rgb Goblins: First Game I fizzeled with 18 life. Secound Game he played 2 Pyrostatic Pillar, but I was able to win with Angelīs Grace. Third Game I had the third round kill with Angels Grace hand but he played first turn Goblin Lackey and then on his third turn Earwig Squad. Removed my only Tendrils and I had no outs.

It was great to play this list and in my opinion itīs still better than the LED+Inf lists. Especially Pact of Negation is such a fucking amazing card.

Misplayer
05-14-2009, 08:20 AM
Props on fighting through a sea of Blue. Did you board in Confidant at all? Also, did you miss having a second Tendrils main and how useful was the third Ad Nauseam?

Dark_Cynic87
05-14-2009, 11:24 AM
Another non-LED list. Good job on the wins, bad form on not reading previous posts about not posting Non-LED lists here. It's screwing up the thread.

One match against MBC and you would have gotten pwned.

Pce,

--DC

Shriekmaw
05-14-2009, 11:42 AM
Another non-LED list. Good job on the wins, bad form on not reading previous posts about not posting Non-LED lists here. It's screwing up the thread.

One match against MBC and you would have gotten pwned.

Pce,

--DC


Non LED lists are the way to go. When more people start testing the list, they will learn it is far better than the LED version of the deck. I think its stupid to change a couple of cards in a list to have a completely new thread on it. This is still a ad nauseam tendrils list which belongs in this thread.

Give it a rest DC.

jegger
05-14-2009, 11:48 AM
Another non-LED list. Good job on the wins, bad form on not reading previous posts about not posting Non-LED lists here. It's screwing up the thread.

One match against MBC and you would have gotten pwned.

Pce,

--DC

The key card of this deck is AN, not LED.
I think that the LEDless build is more relevant with the standard ANT build than the Hybrid ANT version where Ad Nauseam combo is not plan A or plan B, but only plan C after the 2 enablers Doomsday and Ill-Gotten.

Anyway, congratulations linux -||-
I don't like very much the LEDless version, but you do fine with so many blue based deck. Perhaps I'll give another chance to the LEDless version in real.

Dark_Cynic87
05-14-2009, 12:28 PM
.
Give it a rest DC.

Show me how you win against the lower tier decks with that list and I'll give it a rest.

Sure, you win blue matchups, but in bigger metagames, less developed metagames such as a high-count of zoo/goblin lists, how do you beat them? A well-timed and well-aimed Thoughtseize/Duress can really screw you long enough for them to get you in the red zone to where you can't AdN, and then what do you do (rhetorical, you scoop obv)? No IGG seems wrong to me also.

Why don't you want options? Why are you hell-bent on only using Ad Nauseam? It limits what you are capable of, and Storm really has the potential to be versatile in how it wins. Not giving yourself the options available is a bad idea and can lose you games. Also, not having a 2cmc Tutor seems like it puts you at risk of Chalice @ 1. I'll test (so I'm not just being a mouthy little prick), but the idea is absurd to me. I've sided out LED's before and gone 5c control with my list, but never have I dropped out the IT's. They are simply too useful.

Pce,

--DC

mercc
05-14-2009, 03:07 PM
Show me how you win against the lower tier decks with that list and I'll give it a rest.

Sure, you win blue matchups, but in bigger metagames, less developed metagames such as a high-count of zoo/goblin lists, how do you beat them? A well-timed and well-aimed Thoughtseize/Duress can really screw you long enough for them to get you in the red zone to where you can't AdN, and then what do you do (rhetorical, you scoop obv)? No IGG seems wrong to me also.

Why don't you want options? Why are you hell-bent on only using Ad Nauseam? It limits what you are capable of, and Storm really has the potential to be versatile in how it wins. Not giving yourself the options available is a bad idea and can lose you games. Also, not having a 2cmc Tutor seems like it puts you at risk of Chalice @ 1. I'll test (so I'm not just being a mouthy little prick), but the idea is absurd to me. I've sided out LED's before and gone 5c control with my list, but never have I dropped out the IT's. They are simply too useful.

Pce,

--DC

Read my report a few pages back where i faced alot of black.
And sure, we have all discussed this as being better against a blue and slower vs. anything else, that's not new at all. It's a metacall as anything else, thats why it's important to have a good sideboard vs. the things you dont expect to face as much as blue.

emidln
05-14-2009, 03:12 PM
I don't see a reason to further separate threads. It's not like there are a ton of Tendrils players anyway. As far as I can tell, there is a Tendrils deck that runs a (comparatively) lot of lands with a fetchland/duals/basics configuration (ANT/FT/Iggy Pop/whatever you want to call it) and a deck that runs fewer lands of the rainbow variety (usually called TES). That is the big distinction to focus on, because it drastically affects how you have to approach different matchups. Different enablers give you a little more or a little less at various stages of the game in varying situations, but there isn't enough of a difference to really justify having multiple threads.

To be perfectly honest, there isn't a lot to discuss at this point. We know the relative strengths and weaknesses of the different enablers, cantrips, protection spells, and tutors. Any given player who pilots the fetchland/duals/basics manabase (which I still call FT because it makes sense given my two categories) has around 100 cards that routinely find their way into the main + sideboard with the majority being redundant pieces that are only slightly better/worse in particular situations.

Jegger mentioned that list from the 400+ event was almost the same as was played in October. Interestingly enough, it's also nearly the same as was being played a full year ago (it had Street Wraiths and a 2nd IGG in place of the Ad Nauseams and the extra protection). This is going to continue until something fundamental gets banned from the deck (I'm talking about Dark Ritual, Lotus Petal, or Lion's Eye Diamond, and even then, LED may not be a nail in the coffin) or Wizards decides to print/unerrata another a Flash combo.

linux-ll-
05-14-2009, 03:19 PM
Props on fighting through a sea of Blue. Did you board in Confidant at all? Also, did you miss having a second Tendrils main and how useful was the third Ad Nauseam?

Never missed a secound Tendrils. I didnīt play against Discard thus I didnīt use the Dark Confidants.




Another non-LED list. Good job on the wins, bad form on not reading previous posts about not posting Non-LED lists here. It's screwing up the thread.

One match against MBC and you would have gotten pwned.

Pce,

--DC

Sry canīt find a Non-LED ANT thread and I think a lot of people want to read something about those lists.And if you donīt want just ignore them...

In my meta there is no MBC, I chose my list because I expected a lot of Landstill and CB list...

In my opinion LED+Infīs only advantage is that you can play Iggy Loop... Itīs just useful in the first game against fast Aggro and some kind of hate (Meddling Mage)... But post board Angelīs Grace is so fucking good against for example Goblins that you just donīt need Inf + LED. But I agree which list is better is a metagame choice, in my meta the non LED list is far better.

mercc
05-14-2009, 03:37 PM
Lets not forget that my list and linux list plays 2 city of traitors. I'm in love with this land, the +1 mana it gives is huge. I've only seen non-led lists with traitors.

Swamp, Traitors + Dark ritual = good old hatred days (Ad nauseum cc)
And works nice with krosan grip cc 2G.
And perhaps meditate cc 2U, if the decks gets a doomsday plan and so forth...

Waikiki
05-14-2009, 03:43 PM
Im afraid of going up more then 1 since it can only help ramping mana cause he can't cast anything else. no ritual/bstorm/tutor.

linux-ll-
05-14-2009, 04:17 PM
I play 2 City beause I play 3 Top main.

Dark_Cynic87
05-14-2009, 04:44 PM
I've never seen anyone do that. I'm gonna try it in my straight d-day list. That would be better than the City of Brass I'm testing atm. CoB sucks so far. I was trying to round out my 5c D-Day list, but it just didn't cut it. Too random.

Pce,

--DC

mercc
05-15-2009, 01:35 AM
I've never seen anyone do that. I'm gonna try it in my straight d-day list. That would be better than the City of Brass I'm testing atm. CoB sucks so far. I was trying to round out my 5c D-Day list, but it just didn't cut it. Too random.

Pce,

--DC

I played 2 city, 2 top.
Playing city in a 2-color list works fine, i haven't tested it with other colors.
playing duress and PoN as protection makes it work.

jegger
05-15-2009, 05:15 AM
I don't see a reason to further separate threads. It's not like there are a ton of Tendrils players anyway. As far as I can tell, there is a Tendrils deck that runs a (comparatively) lot of lands with a fetchland/duals/basics configuration (ANT/FT/Iggy Pop/whatever you want to call it) and a deck that runs fewer lands of the rainbow variety (usually called TES).

In fact, I wrote that because if we want to do a separate thread for LEDless version, we also need to do another thread for Hybrid ANT version. We can maintain all versions with AN here.

True, sincerely there aren't many margins of improvement for the deck.
We can improve our skill or to adapt our SB strategies to the meta, but the skeleton is remained unchanged from a while.

For the LEDless players, I thought to 2 addons:
- Crystal Vein instead of City of Traitors. If I don't use Sensei, Vein is strictly better.
- Peer Through Depts like a surrogate of IT. If I don't use 8 tutors I presume I need a better setup engine. Perhaps 10-11 manipulation cards (4 Ponder, 4 Brainstorm, 2-3 Peer). Without Sensei, because it improves the control and black based matchup, but slow down further the deck.

A question: has the LEDless version a worst matchup than standard version againt combo and Ichorid? Without Orim, we can't adopt a defensive strategy against these decks and we are obligated to adopt a beatdown role in the match.

All these are suppositions. I don't play a legacy deck from almost 2 months. :wink:

matelml
05-15-2009, 11:14 AM
My question from a few pages back still stands: with a normal AdN/IGG LED version, without DDay, 14 lands and no Tops: what is the best Sb plan against CB decks? 3-4 Grips? Pyroblasts? Tomstalkers/Goyfs? Spell Snares? DDay Sb? multiple EtW? I've tested the first 2 a little bit and those didn't really seem to work great. It also greatly depends on what you board out. Anyone wants to give his opinion on the best plan including what you board out?

mercc
05-15-2009, 12:09 PM
I'm just brainstorming with the 2-cardcombo angel's grace and AdN which is an instant win if they resolve. Vintage decks play 4 Ad Nauseum.

3-4 Ad Nauseum
2-4 Angel's Grace
2-3 Peer through depths

C.P.
05-15-2009, 12:23 PM
- Peer Through Depts like a surrogate of IT. If I don't use 8 tutors I presume I need a better setup engine. Perhaps 10-11 manipulation cards (4 Ponder, 4 Brainstorm, 2-3 Peer). Without Sensei, because it improves the control and black based matchup, but slow down further the deck.

Isn't Impulse better than PTD? Especially considering the fact that it does not reaveal things to come and gets land if needed.

mercc
05-16-2009, 04:16 AM
How about Boseiju?

Noman Peopled
05-16-2009, 06:25 AM
How about Boseiju?

Whenever I mention it, it seems to be answered by "Wasteland", but I still think it could play a bigger part in Legacy than it is. As an sb card, it would help against everything Thresh can throw at us (barring Thoughtseize), as well as potentially raising the mana count, which helps casting Chant/Duress plus AdN (or virtually doubling the use of some lands).
There are, however, many cards that fill a similar role and are more versatile - Chant, Duress, Seize - some of which not only cost no life but conditionally work against fast beats or disrupt opposig game plans as well. Still, in a sea of blue, I think it's worth a try.
Keep in mind that this strategy pretty much means you want to go off with AdN (as opposed to Doomsday), and do so a turn later than usual if you want to enjoy Boseiju protection, which is problematic in the face of Goyf.

Dark_Cynic87
05-16-2009, 10:08 PM
Wasteland is a solid answer, but "too random" is more likely to be the correct answer. Can't find it when you need it like you can with your Duals and Basics. You would need multiples, but it's Legendary which screws up land-drops, and then there's Needle and Wasteland. Plus, it's bad against CB as it's a one-time use a turn unless you are trying to push through your removal on CB (which is dumb since your removal has Split-Second), or making sure a Chant resolves, but that's pretty shitty too since it's easier to splash red for Pyroblast or as other players have mentioned with their LED-less versions, Pact of Negation.

It was tried a long time ago in the original SW version and sucked hardcore (for me at least).

Pce,

--DC

Noman Peopled
05-17-2009, 08:30 AM
Wasteland is a solid answer, but "too random" is more likely to be the correct answer. Can't find it when you need it like you can with your Duals and Basics. You would need multiples, but it's Legendary which screws up land-drops, and then there's Needle and Wasteland. Plus, it's bad against CB as it's a one-time use a turn unless you are trying to push through your removal on CB (which is dumb since your removal has Split-Second), or making sure a Chant resolves, but that's pretty shitty too since it's easier to splash red for Pyroblast or as other players have mentioned with their LED-less versions, Pact of Negation.

It was tried a long time ago in the original SW version and sucked hardcore (for me at least).

Pce,

--DC
I guess you could go for eot AdN, then profit from the untap. You still need to resolve a Ritual eot as well, unless you have five lands/Moxen (unlikely, as some beats will likely have been applied). And then you still have to draw a critical number of Rituals so that Force/CounterTop doesn't kill you, and IT/LED or Mystical/cantrip become a weak spot too. And it does nothing against opposing Chants.
As a sidenote, you won't even be able to push Chant through with it without 3sphere out. By the same token, it does nothing against Chalice at 0 or 1.
Okay, mark me convinced. I still think it could be used profitably somewhere, but probably not in ANT.

mercc
05-18-2009, 02:39 PM
uh, dropped from decks to beat to established deck. Is it because of recent showings?

That means we have to work guys..

jegger
05-19-2009, 05:12 AM
@matelml: CB decks remains our worst matchup. If I found a very capable player, it's difficult to win. Anyway some plans are better than others.
Beast plan in SB keeps busy too much space in SB. The use of Stalker forces us to side out AN and others beasts like Goyf and Specter go under CB. I've also tried some time ago DDay in SB, but against CB matchup, this don't change anything, we need anyway K.Grip o W.Away to combo with CB into play.
The plans I tried more are the green and red splash. Sincerely I prefer the red splash because it's more versatile against many matchup (like merfolk, landstill, black based decks and in general all the no CB blue based decks), but if the presence of CB decks is very high, I can use the green splash.
Usually with red splash, in the CB matchup, I side out 1 island, 1 mox, 1 AN (if my opponent doesn't use black for Seize), 1 R.R., 1 IT, 1 Ponder, 1 orim for 3 Pyro, 1 W.Away, 1 EtW, 2 Volcanic Island. Then this SB plan depends from cards I have in main/SB, the cards my opponent uses (Seize, Wasteland,...) and from how I wake up that morning.

@C.P.: I prefer PTD instead of Impulse because it digs one more. Ok, PTD can't search for Petals and lands, but if I cast it, this means I have into play 2 mana source and often these are enough or if I really need, I can take with PTD a Brainstorm or Ponder to search the third land. Ok, sometimes, for example, when I haven't black mana source into play I can found useful the possibility to take a Delta with Impulse, but I think that the fifth card I can reveal with PTD can give me the possibility to win more games.Ah, anyway I'm not sure the LEDless version really needs Impulse or Peer Through Depts.

@mercc: I'm happy if the deck is no more in the DTB section. I don't take any advantage from this distinction. There are some people that are happy to see their pet deck in DTB. I don't found any utility. My objective is to win, not to put the deck in DTB section. If the deck has less use and visibility, a major number of players don't know how to play against this archetype.

I'm continuing to try the LEDless version. It has some points of strenght like the possibility to do more frequently a turn 2 combo protected with Pact, but I'm looking, at least with my version, that there are more dead cards in many situations (the fourth Mox, the second ToA,...).

jegger
05-25-2009, 01:16 PM
Sorry for double post.
Yersteday I take ANT after 5 months and I win a 60 people tournament.
List very similar to another one I played in november with red splash in SB.
My matchups in swiss:
2-1 vs Affinity
2-0 vs NLU
2-0 vs WW 4C with noisy critters (gaddock, mage, canonist,...)
2-1 vs AggroLoam
ID vs Landstill
ID vs Belcher

In top8:
2-1 vs AggroLoam
drop and split of prize of Bant's opponent friend
2-0 vs Belcher

An I bring home the Dragon Stompy I win.

linux-ll-
06-06-2009, 06:54 PM
Next weekend is a big tournament (First price 4x FBB Duals) and I decided to play ANT.
My list:
Lands
2 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [IN] Island (1)
1 [A] Swamp (1)
3 [b] Underground Sea
1 [b] Tropical Island
2 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Spells
3 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [b] Dark Ritual
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
2 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [FUT] Pact of Negation
4 [US] Duress
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [LRW] Ponder
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MM] Brainstorm
1 [ON] Chain of Vapor

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [RAV] Dark Confidant
SB: 4 [TSP] Angel's Grace
SB: 1 [b] Tundra
SB: 2 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 [AQ] Hurkyl's Recall

Iīm expecting a lot of Landstill/Thres with CB and maybe some Rock because Maelstrom Puls is legal.
Iīm not 100% convinced of Chain of Vapor. I played it on a tournament before and I didnīt like it because it made nothing against CB Pre Board.
Otherwise cc1 is better than 3cc of Wipe Away. And with CoV you are able to win easily without ANT, and this happen sometimes.
What are your experiences with CoV or Wipe Away?
Would you change something in the list?

matamagos
06-07-2009, 03:10 AM
I have played wipe away and I will change it next time. Wipe away of course is good against counterbalance decks, but not against blue decks in general since they don't play many permanents that stop your combo. The rest of the time 3 lifes lost are too many for a card that have other good substitutes.

Here in my meta we are beginning to see lots of tarmoburns, red thresh and so. I wanted to try 1 angel's grace main joined by 4 pacts of negation to see how it performs againts all these red decks.

emidln
06-08-2009, 01:46 PM
I ran this list over the weekend to a finals split in my local legacy event. This is a mix between Kim Kluck's dday/ant list and listening to Bryant rant about the amazingness of Burning Wish everyday on instant messenger. Bryant told me to point out that Burning Wish and Reverent Silence are his ideas.

As far as playing this pile is concerned, all of the standard Doomsday tricks apply, you can Burning Wish into an Infernal Tutor to get yourself an Ad Nauseam, and there are several new pass the turn Doomsday piles that are much less vulnerable than in the past thanks to Burning Wish letting you generate more storm through better abuse of Lion's Eye Diamond.

// Storm VXY
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Burning Wish
2 Infernal Tutor
4 Mystical Tutor
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Doomsday
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Meditate
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Duress
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Island

SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 Doomsday
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Reverent Silence
SB: 1 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 Helm of Awakening

B.C.
06-10-2009, 11:18 AM
RIP end of turn Mystical for Ad Nauseam, activing LED during upkeep to play it. You are a casualty of simplifying the rules for the lowest common denominator. Goddamn motherfuckers.

Pulp_Fiction
06-10-2009, 04:28 PM
Yeah, I just heard about this. Fucking ridiculous, although I do hate Ad Nauseam because it makes storm combo playable by people who don't understand combo, I still LOVE that play, way to many free wins off of that! It also fucks up emidIn's new pass the turn DD pile.

Ciberon
06-11-2009, 08:12 PM
Maybe Silence will be a good card to help protect the combo?

FredMaster
06-12-2009, 02:59 AM
Maybe Silence will be a good card to help protect the combo?
This:

If I was to play Silence it'd be a 1 of over the 4th Chant, solely to get around Runed Halo on Chant.

Pulp_Fiction
06-12-2009, 05:50 AM
Completely different deck man. TES plays 7 protection spells and 1 bounce spell and generally has no use for Silence as it is not a proactive disrpution spell for CB like Duress is. DDFT is going to benefit greatly for it.

@Ciberon: All ANT really needs is 4x Chant and 4x Duress, Silence is .... really unneeded. Although I think LEDless is garbage, they could potentially benefit, but something like 4x Duress and 4x Blast seems to be pretty damn good.

On a strange and somewhat awkward note, am I the only one who feels that straight up ANT is going to be close to invalid after the new rules?

BreathWeapon
06-12-2009, 11:47 AM
Completely different deck man. TES plays 7 protection spells and 1 bounce spell and generally has no use for Silence as it is not a proactive disrpution spell for CB like Duress is. DDFT is going to benefit greatly for it.

@Ciberon: All ANT really needs is 4x Chant and 4x Duress, Silence is .... really unneeded. Although I think LEDless is garbage, they could potentially benefit, but something like 4x Duress and 4x Blast seems to be pretty damn good.

On a strange and somewhat awkward note, am I the only one who feels that straight up ANT is going to be close to invalid after the new rules?

Maybe LED based ANT, but LEDless ANT is unaffected and now that LED isn't nearly as broken it's just another justification to drop the card altogether.

idraleo
06-12-2009, 06:48 PM
Should a thread with LEDless version could be opened by someone competent?

mercc
06-13-2009, 05:47 AM
Who is going to start a petition against the new rules then send it to wizards then the rules will go back?

Noman Peopled
06-13-2009, 06:09 AM
Who is going to start a petition against the new rules then send it to wizards then the rules will go back?
?

Everyone who has an issue with them should. Note that Wizards in all likelihood doesn't give a crap about a mana burn rule that doesn't affect Standard at all.

ParkerLewis
06-13-2009, 06:16 AM
Who is going to start a petition against the new rules then send it to wizards then the rules will go back?

Ask them for a thousand dollars, while you're at it. This way, you might actually not waste your time on a stupid project.

mercc
06-13-2009, 06:50 AM
woah, serious dude's :)

kicks_422
06-13-2009, 11:06 AM
Does anyone have a LED-less list? I'm interested in testing it out.

ColeM
06-13-2009, 12:18 PM
Does anyone have a LED-less list? I'm interested in testing it out.

There are a few LEDless lists throughout this thread. Emidln posted a UBr list a while back, which had 8 red blasts for protection, that I have found to work very well against blue based control. The UB LEDless lists have all been fairly mediocre in my experience and I feel that they are simply not worth running.

I will also note here that I have been running a list similar to Kim Kluck's (a UBr hybrid) with the primary difference being the addition of 3-4 Pyroblasts to the maindeck instead of having them in the sideboard. I am beginning to test emidln's hyrbid list that runs Burning Wish (which is working much better than I would have guessed).

Right now I'm trying to judge how much this deck is nerfed against CounterTop or blue Tempo strategies with the loss of the Mystical/LED trick. I often found myself winning games after using a turn 1 Duress or Thoughtseize to snag a hard counter then setting up a turn 2/3 win via LED + Mystical.

afireinside3241
06-13-2009, 08:33 PM
I'm new to the whole Doomsday in the deck what stacks do you make?

emidln
06-13-2009, 09:31 PM
I've posted misc stacks in the past. While some of them have gone down, others do remain, but the basic idea is this:

Draw Spell
Mana/Protection
Mana/Protection
Mana/Storm Engine/Protection
Win Condition

When building piles remember that you always need to end with at least 2BB, 1R or 1U and that you usually want to begin your draw with Brainstorm, Sensei's Divining Top, or Ponder. Brainstorm gives you options to put something like SDT or a tutor on top with some LEDs to be able to fetch out either more cantrips, a storm engine like IGG, or Tendrils. Ponder is almost always going to simply draw into Brainstorm or Meditate. SDT is interesting because it keeps your pile the same. This usually lets you put a draw3 or draw4 on top and lets you abuse Lion's Eye Diamond to cast your finisher.

There are a ton of useful piles, but these (and their variations) are where you probably want to start:

1) Using SDT (costs 2U after your cantrip):
Meditate/LED/LED/Lotus Petal/Tendrils

2) Using Brainstorm/Ponder/SDT (costs 2U after your cantrip)
Meditate/Dark Rit/Dark Rit/Lotus Petal/Tendrils

3) Using SDT (costs 4U after your cantrip)
Meditate/SDT/Helm of Awakening/LED/Grapeshot

4) Using SDT (costs 1U after your cantrip) requires 2 other cards in hand
Brainstorm/LED/LED/IGG/Tendrils

5) Using Brainstorm (costs 1 after your cantrip) requires 2 other cards in hand
SDT/LED/LED/IGG/Tendrils

As an exercise to the reader, work out the storm yourself. None of these piles include the cost of Doomsday. I use roughly 30 piles regularly and many more in esoteric situations. Almost all of them follow these same design patterns.

mercc
06-14-2009, 04:28 AM
Someone mentioned that doomsday piles have been affected by the new rules, can anyone tell how? if so.

how come doomsday is not a strong combo-card alone as it only requires one card and 6+ mana?

kicks_422
06-14-2009, 07:59 AM
Because people are too lazy to actually take time to learn it? Maybe because people would rather cast Ad Nauseam than Doomsday? I dunno.. Seriously, it's a one-card engine, tutoring for 5 cards. How powerful is that?

linux-ll-
06-15-2009, 06:10 AM
Played on a +75 man tournament. Made the first place.
My list:
Lands
2 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [IN] Island (1)
1 [A] Swamp (1)
3 [b] Underground Sea
1 [b] Tropical Island
2 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Spells
3 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [b] Dark Ritual
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
2 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [FUT] Pact of Negation
4 [US] Duress
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [LRW] Ponder
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MM] Brainstorm
1 [ON] Chain of Vapor

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [RAV] Dark Confidant
SB: 4 [TSP] Angel's Grace
SB: 1 [b] Tundra
SB: 2 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 [AQ] Hurkyl's Recall

I canīt tell something about the matches in detail.
Played against:
Thres with CB
Mono Black Train Wreck Discard
Affinity
UGw Thres
Doran Rock
Aggro Loam
Pro Thres with CB, he was very cool and scooped thus we had the maximun of prices (4 FBB Duals Taiga,Scrubland,Plateu,Badlands and 4 Volcanic Island WB)

Iīm very satisfied with my list and I see no reason to add LED or Infernal Tutor. Eminently not because of the M10 Rules.

Skeggi
06-15-2009, 08:01 AM
Congratulations on your finish. How would you side against Merfolk?

linux-ll-
06-15-2009, 08:12 AM
Something like this:
-Ponder
-Brainstorm
-Chain of Vapor
-Cabal Ritual
-Tropical Island

+4 Angelīs Grace
+Tundra

idraleo
06-15-2009, 08:34 AM
Why a maindeck Chain of Vapor? You like sucking from CB? I saw no reason to play it over Rushing River or Grip, as i can' t see how 4x Pact of Negation should be better than Orim' s Chant. I thought that is more a budget version that a most efficent one, LED is still too powerful in this deck for cut it out, regardless of M10 new rules...

Piceli89
06-15-2009, 08:49 AM
Why a maindeck Chain of Vapor? You like sucking from CB? I saw no reason to play it over Rushing River or Grip, as i can' t see how 4x Pact of Negation should be better than Orim' s Chant. I thought that is more a budget version that a most efficent one, LED is still too powerful in this deck for cut it out, regardless of M10 new rules...

Perhaps because he could do tricks with Moxen , bounce an artifact of him to copy CoV and bounce oppo's Balance ? And because RR and Grip are damnly slow?

linux-ll-
06-15-2009, 08:56 AM
Perhaps because he could do tricks with Moxen , bounce an artifact of him to copy CoV and bounce oppo's Balance ? And because RR and Grip are damnly slow?

Right!

And it cc 3 is too bad with Ad Nauseam.

Van Phanel
06-15-2009, 09:13 AM
Perhaps because he could do tricks with Moxen , bounce an artifact of him to copy CoV and bounce oppo's Balance ? And because RR and Grip are damnly slow?


Right!

And it cc 3 is too bad with Ad Nauseam.


Wait what?

People actually go into tournaments assumng that their opponents can't play?

Piceli89
06-15-2009, 09:24 AM
Wait what?

People actually go into tournaments assumng that their opponents can't play?

a) you can do tricks with moxen when you need an alt way to increase storm count. Of course it's better to pass from Chant, before.
b) This is difficult, but sometimes an inexpert opponent can let your chain of your petal pass, then you copy it and bounce. Still difficult, I admit it.
c)Sometimes when you draw ( or reveal to AN) Wipe Away/Grip in your opening hand you're not very happy, unless against Cb decks.. and i guess he wasn't playing in a CB-only meta.

jegger
06-15-2009, 10:43 AM
Perhaps because he could do tricks with Moxen , bounce an artifact of him to copy CoV and bounce oppo's Balance ?

We can't hope to play against Duffy Duck for 7 turns.
Sometimes in the first tables we found a decent player.

And CoV is useless also against Chalice.

Come on. Chain of Vapor is good....in Vintage.

idraleo
06-15-2009, 11:05 AM
Perhaps because he could do tricks with Moxen , bounce an artifact of him to copy CoV and bounce oppo's Balance ? And because RR and Grip are damnly slow?

And assuming we won't sit against Donald Duck for 7 turns in a row?

Shades
06-15-2009, 12:09 PM
Linux, congrats to your finish! Your deck looks very well tuned and must be a blast to play (Pacts are sooo sexy in Storm Combo). Your SB looks really well too, but I was never a fan of Angel's Grace - did they do for you what you wanted them to do?
How were the City of Traitors? I thought about running Crystal Vein, since it can speed you up as well, but is not as clunky in the beginning (means: I can play it first and don't have to sac it to play another land).

FredMaster
06-15-2009, 12:49 PM
I agree with Shades here, Crystal Vein negates City's early game problems and has literally no downsides.

//edit: except for the case that you don't play other lands, of course.

matamagos
07-02-2009, 07:34 PM
Sorry to ask this cause I'm sure it has been discussed before, but I can't find a clear answear!!! Here is the question:

Can we break the LED in the draw step before drawing???

It's sure we can play instants and effects in the draw step, but I dont know if drawing is the first thing to do here without any possibility of doing anything else before.

sorrel
07-02-2009, 08:06 PM
No, you can't. Drawing a card is a game action, like untapping or discarding down to seven, that happens as soon as the appropriate step starts, without using the stack. Unlike the untap or clean up steps, players do get priority during the draw step, but only after the card has been drawn.

Valtrix
07-02-2009, 08:11 PM
I guess I'm a little confused about your question. When would you want to do something in your drawstep before you draw, but not during your upkeep instead?

sorrel
07-02-2009, 08:17 PM
If you could do things during your draw step before drawing a card, the Mystical for an Ad Nauseam and sacrifice an LED before you draw to pay for it trick would still work after M2010. Sadly, this is not the case.

matamagos
07-05-2009, 04:35 PM
Thank you sorrel!

And my question has been also well explained. with the change on the mana pool rules is useful to know exactly all the mechanics of every step.

johanessen
07-05-2009, 05:24 PM
Linux, congrats to your finish! Your deck looks very well tuned and must be a blast to play (Pacts are sooo sexy in Storm Combo). Your SB looks really well too, but I was never a fan of Angel's Grace - did they do for you what you wanted them to do?
How were the City of Traitors? I thought about running Crystal Vein, since it can speed you up as well, but is not as clunky in the beginning (means: I can play it first and don't have to sac it to play another land).

In Spain we had been playing Crystal Veins instead of Citys last two months and results are alot better. For the purpose of this deck Crystal Vein don't have any downside compared with City.

mercc
07-10-2009, 06:07 PM
I myself am playing vein now over traitors.

But after boarding in 3 grips, traitors has an advantage, as well as playing and spinning top same turn. I'm still uncertain...

Pulp_Fiction
07-23-2009, 03:25 PM
I took ANT to my local tournament last night and made it to the top 4 and split. I went 5-0-1 and there were about 30-32 people there. Below is my list followed by a short tournament report:

4x Dark Ritual
4x LED
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Infernal Tutor
4x Brainstorm
4x Orim's Chant
4x Lotus Petal
4x Cabal Ritual
3x Silence
2x Chrome mox
2x Ponder
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Tendrils
1x IGG
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Krosan Grip

4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
2x Underground Sea
1x tundra
1x Scrubland
1x Bayou
1x Tropical Island
1x Island

Sideboard
3x Xantid Swarm
2x Krosan Grip
2x Slaughter Pact
1x Virtue's Ruin
1x Tempest of Light
1x Ray of Revelation
1x Disenchant
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Ad Nauseam
1x IGG
1x Hurkyl's Recall

Round 1: Merfolk
g1 - I draw a shit ton of Rituals and lose cause I everytime I Brainstorm/Ponder I look at more rituals. Happens, I lost on turn 6-7.
g2 - Turn 1 Xantid, turn 3 IGG Loop.
g3 - Having 7 Chants really shined here. I drop an early to with the combo + protection in my hand to try and draw out Daze, and it works. Turn 3 I chant him and it gets Forced. Turn 4 I chant again, he has nothing, double LED + IT wins games.

Round 2: Ranger of Eos Zoo
g1 - He plays 4 maindeck Ethersworn Canonist and goes turn 1 Monkey, turn 2 Canonist ... pressure on. My hand looks good but I need to answer Canonist, upkeep I activate Top and see Petal + Grip! I have 2 turns to setup as he plays more shit and during his end step I go to Grip his Canonist and realize I have no black mana and no petals (except to cast Grip). But I have Ponder in my hand and decide to suck it up and play for the win. EOT Grip then Ponder reveals Sea and a fetch ... Rit, Rit, LED, IT wins it again.
g2 - This sucked. Turn 2 Canonist again, I have the answer but no action spells. 2x Brainstorm and 2x Ponder Reveal nothing and I lose ... sad times.
g3 - He drop turn 1 Monkey, turn 2 Teeg. My hand is Rit, Cabal, Petal, Mystical, Slaughter Pact, EOT MT into AdN, Pact on Teeg, and draw lots of cards with AdN and win.

Round 3: Hybrid Doomsday w/ Blasts and Chant
g1 - Opening hand is beautiful but no Chants but it looks fast as hell. I Brainstorm into 2 Silence and win after a lot of setup turns. 7 Chants just dominates here.
g2 - I get a decent hand with 2 Chant and no action spells. We have Chant wars and after he has 2 Chants in the yard and 3 cards in hand my hand consists of: Rit, Cabal (with thresh), Cabal, LED, IT and I draw Brainstorm and storm into another IT and I add shit tons of mana and tendrils for exactly 20.

Round 4: Combo Elves
g1 - Gets a little scary as Ponders reval nothing but Top sets me up and I won on turn 5 at 2 life!
g2 - Turn 2 Ad Nauseam and draw half the deck and win!

Round 5: Burn
ID

Top 8
Round 6: Standard RG Aggro, no joke, this thing ravaged everything it played against.
g1 - Opening hand: Rit, Cabal, fetch, AdN, Cabal, Brainstorm, Grip, turn 1 win and I ripped Rit off the top just to add more mana!
g2 - Opening hand: Rit, AdN, Cabal, Brainstorm, Chain of Vapor, fetch, Sea. I rip Cabal off the top and go nuts. 2 turn 1 wins against a standard deck ... LOL. The entire tournament I think I won on turn 1 a total of 3 times and 2 were against the same deck in the top 8!

Overall I REALLY love this build. Silence is a disgusting amount of awesome and makes me feel a lot more confident with playing IGG. Both games I won against Merfolk he flashed me Stifle in hand! Very cool. Only thing I would change is the SB. I used everything except IGG. I thought it might be a good idea against Burn after I board out AdN but it really isn't that necessary. I would go -1 IGG and +1 Naturalize to the SB. Aside form that, I love everything about this list.

First off I realize it looks different. 2x Chrome Mox feels perfect with this build, test it out as it is. Since Silence has been printed I wanted to play a more IGGY-style deck as opposed to the current AdN lists and I actually win VIA the IGG loop most of my games. 2x Top 2x Ponder split is good. You get to do stupid things with Top and it helps bad Ad Nauseams when you can only add 1 U and 1 B afterwards. I would like to get a third Ponder into the deck but I feel it is running the perfect amount of Rituals and would not cut a Cabal at this point for almost anything but that is the most likely candidate for Ponder #3. Any questions about the list, how I sided etc. are more than welcome! Thoughts?

mercc
07-24-2009, 12:52 PM
Great to see combo kick ass.

But why the 2/2 split on ponder and sensei?

When trying to set up fast you want ponder as sensei takes more mana.
And when slowrolling with fetches sensei is better.

My first thought is going 4 ponder and no sensei's but I haven't played it :)