[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

[B.C.]

Congrats on your finish, Pulp_Fiction. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who has stuck with the LED/IT build after M10. How was the 4x Mystical Tutor? After M10 the first thing I did was bump that down to 2. MT just doesn't seem nearly as good when you can't do the upkeep LED trick.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Thanks man, I was loving the 4x Mystical Tutors all day. Only sided 1x out against Doomsday since that matchups is heavily reliant on speed. It is annoying when opeing a hand of LED, LED, land, MT but hoestly this hand is a turn 2 win anyway, just IGG loop into it. But there are those hands where you don't have enough rituals to sustain IGG loop where Mox, land, LED, MT will win on turn 2 .. but still, very nice to have. Since we now play 7-8 Chant effects I truly see no reason to not run ITs and LEDs, especially since they give you so many free wins out of nowhere and after doing a little math, you know if it is a guarnteed win as opposed to AdN which can and will fail on occassion.

@mercc: I wasn't sure about the 2/2 split but now I am. Speed is not totally relevant in this deck, consistency is, and my goal is not to cast AdN, but I love having the option there as it only takes up 3x slots: 2x Mox and 1 AdN so why not run it! I tried to make a deck that functions like IGGY Pop (since I can IGG in peace now that I have 7x Chants) but still has the option of going for AdN, which is why there is only 1x in the main. An Additional AdN is in the SB for the really easy aggro decks like Elves, the combo mirror when it is all about speed, and against decks like Eva Green that pack sick amounts of hand destruction. Top is better while comboing off with AdN when you can only make 1 U mana but a ton of black so you can MT into what you need, play Top and activate, but also it is infinitely better in the blue and combo matchups since they are all about the setup. I have been wanting Ponder #3 but I still feel that 4x Cabal Ritual is correct so for now I'm going to leave that alone. The deck only left me stranded with nothing one game out of all 5x rounds that I played.

[kroelai]

About a month ago I took ANT into a 35 man tournament.
And won overall with a 9-0-0 record, this was my list:

4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
1x Snow-Covered Island
1x Snow-Covered Swamp
2x Underground Sea
2x Tundra
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
3x Chrome Mox
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Duress
4x Orim's Chant
4x Infernal Tutor
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Ad Nauseam
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
4x Mystical Tutor

SB:
4x Thoughtseize
4x Empty the Warrens
1x Hurkyll's Recall
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Echoing Truth
1x Volcanic Island
1x Wipe Away


This was before the M10 ruleschange, I am sure I would have lost against a rock player, because his discard spells where dead against my 1st turn led, island chrome mox, with mystical in hand. With this rules changes this hand is much less powerfull as it was, so I am thinking of cutting 1 Mystical tutor.
I am also thinking of bringing Empty the Warrens back mainboard, it steals so many games against your worste matchups.

[MTG-Fan]

Top 8
Round 6: Standard RG Aggro, no joke, this thing ravaged everything it played against.


Are you serious? A Type 2 deck beating some of the top Legacy decks? I find this hard to believe. Could you get the list for this thing?

I have a hard time believing anything in Type 2 has the power level to compete with Legacy decks. Extended stuff, yes, but not Type 2 at the moment.

[emidln]

Are you serious? A Type 2 deck beating some of the top Legacy decks? I find this hard to believe. Could you get the list for this thing?

I have a hard time believing anything in Type 2 has the power level to compete with Legacy decks. Extended stuff, yes, but not Type 2 at the moment.

I'll put money on type 2 kithkin vs threshold or merfolk. The deck actually is that good. As long as you avoid storm combo and put Relics/TCrypts in the sb, you can probably be in the X-2 realm at most legacy events.

[MTG-Fan]

I'll put money on type 2 kithkin vs threshold or merfolk. The deck actually is that good. As long as you avoid storm combo and put Relics/TCrypts in the sb, you can probably be in the X-2 realm at most legacy events.

Nah, I've played loads of Type 2, and Kithkin will just fold to the efficient sweepers in the T1.5 format, not to mention Moat.

Without AEther Vial, Type 2 aggro cannot compete against Legacy control decks. And even with Vial, the creatures in T2 right now are just subpar compared to the options available to the Legacy cardpool, especially now since Future Sight rotated out, and Lorwyn is also rotating out soon.

[emidln]

Nah, I've played loads of Type 2, and Kithkin will just fold to the efficient sweepers in the T1.5 format, not to mention Moat.

Without AEther Vial, Type 2 aggro cannot compete against Legacy control decks. And even with Vial, the creatures in T2 right now are just subpar compared to the options available to the Legacy cardpool, especially now since Future Sight rotated out, and Lorwyn is also rotating out soon.

Efficient board sweepers are (1) not nearly as universal as in t2 and (2) not played in nearly the quantities of standard control decks. Compare standard 5cc with Firespout, Hallowed Burial, and sb Volcanic Fallout to Dreadstill's 3 Firespout or Pyroclasm (somewhere in the 75, usually SB), Threshold's 0 sweepers, 4c/Vorosh Landstill and ITF's 3-4 Pernicious Deed, or Merfolk's 0 sweepers.

Board sweepers are pipe dream in this format. Kithkin is nearly immune to mana-base disruption, plays more and bigger creatures than the rest of the format, and is really difficult to hate out with Counterbalance. Unmodified, it presents a serious threat to any Threshold, Chalice-aggro (Dragon Stompy or Faerie Stompy), Landstill, Merfolk, or G/B/x Aggro deck with very good solutions to Goblins and certain Zoo builds (Burrenton Forge Tender anyone?). Sure, Humility/Wrath/Moat exist from UWx Landstill, but welcome to the life of an aggro deck in Legacy. Combo exists and probably isn't going to get very good short of a dedicated sideboard, but with some minor work, Dredge is winnable and you have one hell of a metagame deck if you can dodge storm.

With light modification including Jitte (and probably Aether Vial, possibly Mana Tithe or splashes into Daze, KGrip, or Price of Progress/Pyropillar), Kithkin could easily top8 any 6-8 round legacy event. Without modification, it stands a good chance if it only plays against the tier 1-1.5 decks.

[MTG-Fan]

Efficient board sweepers are (1) not nearly as universal as in t2 and (2) not played in nearly the quantities of standard control decks. Compare standard 5cc with Firespout, Hallowed Burial, and sb Volcanic Fallout to Dreadstill's 3 Firespout or Pyroclasm (somewhere in the 75, usually SB), Threshold's 0 sweepers, 4c/Vorosh Landstill and ITF's 3-4 Pernicious Deed, or Merfolk's 0 sweepers.


All it takes is for Kithkin to run into a Landstill deck, or any control deck like MUC or Ultimate Walkers running: Engineered Explosives, Powder Keg, Nevinryyl's Disk, etc. Also, that Mono White deck Quinn would eat Kithkin alive. And Rock runs deed, obviously

So that leaves you with Aggro. Yes, aggro decks like Merfolk, Goblins, and Thresh don't run sweepers, but I know Kithkin would be easily outclassed by the speed and card advantage of Goblins, and the speed (due to Vial) of Merfolk, and the disruption run by Thresh.



Board sweepers are pipe dream in this format. Kithkin is nearly immune to mana-base disruption, plays more and bigger creatures than the rest of the format, and is really difficult to hate out with Counterbalance. Unmodified, it presents a serious threat to any Threshold, Chalice-aggro (Dragon Stompy or Faerie Stompy), Landstill, Merfolk, or G/B/x Aggro deck with very good solutions to Goblins and certain Zoo builds (Burrenton Forge Tender anyone?). Sure, Humility/Wrath/Moat exist from UWx Landstill, but welcome to the life of an aggro deck in Legacy. Combo exists and probably isn't going to get very good short of a dedicated sideboard, but with some minor work, Dredge is winnable and you have one hell of a metagame deck if you can dodge storm.


Again, any of the control decks in this format completely own unmodified T2 Kithkin. There is no Vial to worry about, and practicaly zero disruption to worry about, and like most tribal decks, Kithkin depends on its lords being in play to do any real damage, so StP just owns them.




With light modification including Jitte (and probably Aether Vial, possibly Mana Tithe or splashes into Daze, KGrip, or Price of Progress/Pyropillar), Kithkin could easily top8 any 6-8 round legacy event. Without modification, it stands a good chance if it only plays against the tier 1-1.5 decks.

The big threats are just too slow and expensive. You have your typical cheap tribal synergies, then you have big expensive bombs like Cloudgoat Ranger, which are completely unplayable in Legacy, and don't provide nearly enough of a punch for their cost.

And if you outfit Kithkin with Vial & Jitte, you have to ask yourself, am I not better off just playing some of the various other Vial decks that litter the format?

[emidln]

All it takes is for Kithkin to run into a Landstill deck, or any control deck like MUC or Ultimate Walkers running: Engineered Explosives, Powder Keg, Nevinryyl's Disk, etc. Also, that Mono White deck Quinn would eat Kithkin alive. And Rock runs deed, obviously


Powder Keg is laughable. So you wipe up the three spirit tokens and get pounded by the rest of the varied curve? MUC's biggest weapon (B2B with its strong manabase) is irrelevant to a deck packing 18-21 basic Plains. EE is stronger against Kithkin than Powder Keg, but isn't a problem unless it's being recurred. The curve of the deck, much like the curve of Goblins, helps it avoid CMC-dependent hate like EE and CB. Rock has 4 Deed and spot removal? How is this any harder than Firespout (which still kills everything) + spot removal with cascade?


So that leaves you with Aggro. Yes, aggro decks like Merfolk, Goblins, and Thresh don't run sweepers, but I know Kithkin would be easily outclassed by the speed and card advantage of Goblins, and the speed (due to Vial) of Merfolk, and the disruption run by Thresh.

In actual testing, Merfolk and CB Thresh were complete byes. Vial didn't seem to make any difference at all because Merfolk's creatures were miles worse and fewer. Kithkin can produce card advantage of its own with Cloudgoat Ranger, Spectral Procession, and Ranger of Eos (for pro red dudes that nonetheless).


Again, any of the control decks in this format completely own unmodified T2 Kithkin. There is no Vial to worry about, and practicaly zero disruption to worry about, and like most tribal decks, Kithkin depends on its lords being in play to do any real damage, so StP just owns them.

Kithkin plays 4 lords with them being the 2nd worst cards in the deck (behind the Isamaru kithkin). The pump comes from Honor the Pure and Ajani, things that aren't affected by creature removal.


The big threats are just too slow and expensive. You have your typical cheap tribal synergies, then you have big expensive bombs like Cloudgoat Ranger, which are completely unplayable in Legacy, and don't provide nearly enough of a punch for their cost.

I don't know what tribal synergies you think Kithkin has, but from playing the deck in Standard, the deck appears to be composed of brutally efficient creatures or spells producing creatures, lands, path to exile, and pump effects (11 on average with only 4 of them being lords). Their best threat isn't even a Kithkin, just a cmc 6 spell that produces 3 fliers that happen to be white. Expensive bombs are fine with a solid manabase. They're difficult to counter (especially given the threat-heavy remainder of the deck assuring that the hard counters are gone) and provide, (Cloudgoat Ranger) on average, between 10 and 14 power on 4 different bodies. I'd call that a bargain at 5 mana. Being expensive isn't as big of a drawback as you might think when your deck is filled with an appropriate curve and a healthy count of basics with which to cast them. It means situational counters (CB, Spell Snare) are going to be worse and only becomes a problem against something with the ability to destroy basic lands (ala Eva Green or Geddon Stax).

If you'd like to play some games (perhaps in another thread), I'm quite confident that I can prove standard kithkin to be a very viable deck against a large portion of the legacy metagame.

[MTG-Fan]

I will give you that Kithkin is a decent aggro deck with the addition of Path to Exile, but I'm fairliy confident that if I played you, or anyone piloting an unmodified T2 Kithkin list with any one of:

Ad Nauseam Tendrils
Goblins
Landstill
Quinn
Merfolk
Countertop
Enchantress

I would lose very few games.

In fact, I can *guarantee* that I would never lose more than 1/10 (making allowances for random mana screw and Kithkin god hands) games to Kithkin if I was running:

Enchantress (Elephant Grass, Solitary Confinement, gg)
Quinn (Wrath of God, tons of removal, Halos, gg)
Landstill (Wrath of God, Nevinyrral's Disk, Explosives, all recurring, gg)
Ad Nauseam Tendrils (combo out before Kithkin can ever goldfish, gg)

But yeah, I've played Kithkin and played against it in T2, and it is not a BAD aggro deck by even Legacy standards, sure. It's just not as good as the aggro Legacy already has, imho.

And the quote I originally responded to wasn't even talking about Kithkin (which is probably the strongest aggro deck T2 has seen for a while)... it was talking about some R/G jank. I want to know how the hell THAT, probably loaded with nonbasics, ever got into the top8.

[MTG-Fan]

Also, here's a play-by-play for what would happen in the Countertop vs. Kithkin matchup:

They have a bunch of dudes on the low end of the curve, just like any self-respecting aggro deck: Wizened Cenn, Figure of Destiny, Goldmeadow Stalwart, and Knight of Meadowgrain. These guys will typically either get denied by the Countertop lock or they will be Plowed/Bolted on a 1:1 basis. And the guys that do stick will meet Goyf & Co and become quickly outclassed.

The bombs which they run that are outside of the typical low mana curve: Cloudgoat Ranger & Ajani Goldmane, would basically never resolve. A good Countertop player would reserve their Dazes and Forces specifically for these bombs.

Kithkin can create card advantage by cheating their stuff into play with Windbrisk Heights. Well, because they otherwise run all basics, this leaves them the sole victim of the Countertop player's Wastelands and Stifles.

Spectral Procession would be a pain to deal with, but that's really the ONLY thing I can think of that would even remotely cause a problem. Everything else is just outclassed by better creatures, more card advantage, and better tempo of the typical Legacy deck.

[mercc]

This discussion............. is useless? :)

[MTG-Fan]

This discussion............. is useless? :)

You're right, because any reasonably intelligent T1.5 player would recognize that an unmodified T2 should get stomped into oblivion by most good Legacy decks.

[C.P.]

You're right, because any reasonably intelligent T1.5 player would recognize that an unmodified T2 should get stomped into oblivion by most good Legacy decks.

This is not necessary true. Legacy decks are wierd creatures, somtimes it gets stomped by most unexpected cards, as most decks run fairly narrow 'staples' that does little outside Legacy. Take a more 'normal' decks in the format, and you will find it is often badly positioned against more attrition oriented decks, which most of T2 decks are.

Against Kithkin, Wasteland, Stifle, and Spell Snare are all heavily played cards that are only marginaly good. CB lock does nothing to stop their bombs, either. You did list decks that will beat kithkin, and I have no doubt that some of them will beat it. However, that is only beacuse this format is unusually diverse and have so called 'random' decks.

P.S. I love useless discussions. They are the best of the Kind.

[MTG-Fan]

This is not necessary true. Legacy decks are wierd creatures, somtimes it gets stomped by most unexpected cards, as most decks run fairly narrow 'staples' that does little outside Legacy. Take a more 'normal' decks in the format, and you will find it is often badly positioned against more attrition oriented decks, which most of T2 decks are.


It is true that alot of the "tier" decks are geared toward beating common Legacy strategies (cheap spells) and might not be as effective against unexpected Standard mana curves, BUT the fact remains that Legacy plays the most efficient stuff in the game, which would completely outclass the slower crap and worse manabases Standard is forced to run, regardless of little kinks like a few cards escaping CounterTop lock.

I've played LOADS and LOADS of both competitive Standard (top8ing several mid-large tournaments during Tsp_10th_Lrw block) *and* Legacy (I've been playing it hardcore as much as possible the past year or so), and I feel I am qualified to make this call.



Against Kithkin, Wasteland, Stifle, and Spell Snare are all heavily played cards that are only marginaly good. CB lock does nothing to stop their bombs, either. You did list decks that will beat kithkin, and I have no doubt that some of them will beat it. However, that is only beacuse this format is unusually diverse and have so called 'random' decks.


Yes CB top wouldn't stop Spectral Procession, Cloudgoat, or Ajani, but everything else in the deck is susceptible, and you have to remember that a good CounterTop deck also runs other counterspells like FoW and Daze which *would* stop those bombs.

Wasteland/Stifle are also great against Kithkin because it stops them from generating card/tempo advantage through Windbrisk Heights, which is one of the biggest threats the deck has.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Here is the thing, I like this discussion and I will post on it because I think its matchups like these that we see why Thresh is strictly a meta deck and sucks in the random matchups. But, this is the ANT thread, could you guys start a thread for Standard decks VS Legacy decks in the Format discussion forums.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Yes CB top wouldn't stop Spectral Procession, Cloudgoat, or Ajani, but everything else in the deck is susceptible, and you have to remember that a good CounterTop deck also runs other counterspells like FoW and Daze which *would* stop those bombs.

Wasteland/Stifle are also great against Kithkin because it stops them from generating card/tempo advantage through Windbrisk Heights, which is one of the biggest threats the deck has.

On the CB/Top thing, even more than that, UGw Thresh runs StP for Cloudgoat and Spectral Procession, some people also have EE in their boards for game 2 and 3, and even have Meddling Mage if need be. Teeg also stops Procession and Ajani.

Also, Thresh lists often run at least one Rushing River, some play 2 depending on the meta, or one and a Wipe Away. Anything that gets through can be bounced, and at an opportune time, say after thresh gets a force/Daze/whatever to get it countered.

The Wasteland/Stifle thing is whatever. Hardly on topic with CB as lists that run CB (Thresh) don't run either. Thrash does. I bet Thrash does better against kithkin than Thresh.

I g2g, but I'll edit later.

Pce,

--DC

[johanessen]

Last LCL (Liga Catalana Legacy, 70 people average) had 3 Ad Nauseam on top8.

Here are the results:

http://www.lamaquinadeltemps.com/foros/viewthread.php?tid=1014

[linux-ll-]

Great, all without LED!

[whidye]

This is a budgetized version of the ANT-style of play. The deck is mono-black; removing it from wasteland/stifle play. It uses a large amount of 0cmc creatures to lower the average; as well as to take advantage of cheap spells such as culling the weak and diabolic intent.

Following the list, I will include explanations of card choices.

DRILLBAIT

1 Phyrexian Tower
10 Swamp

4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Ornithopter
4 Shield Sphere

4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
2 Songs of the Damned

4 Diabolic Intent
3 Ad Nauseam
2 Tendrils of Agony

1 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Pact of Negation
2 Slaughter Pact

Sideboard

2 Powder Keg
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Drain Life
2 Mortify
1 Vindicate
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle



Card discussion:

Phyrexian Tower: A great 1-of; allowing me to sacrifice creatures to accelerate mana. This card is run instead of a fourth Cabal Ritual because I found it is a much better card pre-AdN although it is susceptible to wasteland-hate.
Swamp: The basic mana-base shuts down stifle/wasteland/back to basics/price of progress/moon effects. This is excellent. Because of the low CMC of the deck (average of 0.87) it is pretty easy to run only 10 swamps and go off on T3 (with protection).

Twelve 0cmc creatures: An essential in this deck. Both early protection from goblin lackey's and other annoying weenies. Required by Tower, Culling the weak, songs of the damned, diabolic intent, cabal therapy flashback.

Lotus Petal: The only way to play vindicate/mortify post-board (essential to shutting down reverent silence/chalice). Also, adds to storm count, provides some mana accel and is the only way for you to start up from AdN if you have no mana left in pool (due to daze or only having 5 onhand).
Dark Ritual: Great mana accel; netting 2.
Cabal Ritual: Excellent post-AdN and lackluster before (net 3 vs. 1).
Culling the Weak: Great synergy with your creatures. Net 3.
Songs of the Damned: Superb post-AdN generator. Works off of 1 and easily nets 4-5 mana. Often dark ritual 5-6 if played before AdN.

Diabolic Intent: Grabs your essentials - AdN, Tendrils, mana accel depending on what you need.
AdN: You need this spell to get off without a hitch. It will win you the game as you generally can safely draw 12 cards.
Tendrils of Agony: Your win-con. I would like an alternate; but with mono-black and running pacts for protection; there are not many choices. Drain life is next best; as I have generated 34 mana post-AdN on turn 3 before (goldfishing).

Cabal Therapy: Works much better post-board as you know their deck and types of hate they will run. Excellent as it can provide card advantage by recurring it with creature sacrifice.
Duress: Early disruption to allow your AdN to go off. Side out for Therapy.
Pact of Negation: Hard counter to stop orim's chant/stifle/other counters when you AdN or Tendrils.
Slaughter Pact: MD answer to mage and early problem cards. This might in fact be a weak MD; during testing I find it is often used only to kill your excess creatures to power songs and improve storm count.


Sideboard:

Powder Keg: A great answer to Chalice of the Void - which can be a real problem for your deck. Also Sensei's Top.
Cabal Therapy: Once you know the opponents deck; these cards apply great synergy and should be sided in for duress.
Slaughter Pact: Meddling Mage.
Drain Life: A "good" alt-win. It requires a lot of mana to kill from 20; which will often be the case; but there are not a lot of other options for mono-black. One suggestion has been Maga, Traitor to Mortals (depending on if you have pact'd; this is often a better choice than drain).
Mortify: Budget vindicate. Deals with mage/runed halo/reverent silence/counterbalance.
Vindicate: Deals with any permanent! But.. I only have one.
Relic: A worse SB option than tormod's crypt since it hurts your songs/therapies. However, shuts down goyf and dredge. Played correctly, this card is fine (after you flash therapies and stack song mana).
Pithing Needle: An answer to a lot of cards in legacy (Sensei's Top, Survival, Factory, jitte, vial, EE, grindstone, planeswalkers). Should be ran post-board depending on the deck you face and replace the slaughter pacts.



So, I have done some testing with this deck vs:
-Mirror
-Merfolk
-Enchantress
-Zoo

Fairly good results. One problem this deck has is that it mulligans poorly since it lacks blue hand fixing/draw. This also means that sometimes it takes a while to get AdN. Depending on how you play your hand you can still go off quite quickly. Turn 3-4 kills are probably most likely when running protection before you go off.

Let me know what you think about this mono-black budget tendrils list. I have thought about putting in some chrome mox; but I think it could only replace a cabal ritual; although it is much better post-AdN as it lets me run AdN with no mana in the pool more often. Let me know your thoughts on adding mox to this deck (I sadly do not have mox diamond; otherwise I think it would have been the stronger choice).

Improvements to mono-black ANT are appreciated! Thanks!

(Also, I have Ill-Gotten Gains; and originally ran this list with it. I am not sure if it fits, so I removed it.)

[Dark_Cynic87]

This list is like bad Spanish Inquisition, only worse. I promise that you straight-up LOSE to anything with:

CB
Chalice
Trinisphere
FoW
Chant
Silence
any blue countermagic
Duress
Thoughtseize
Cabal Therapy

And, your sideboard is outrageous.

There shouldn't be a "budgetized" storm list. It takes away from what makes it good--the ability to combo through and around hate. Being one, maybe two colors isn't acceptable. Fetches are necessary. Even TES has decided that is true. So is Brainstorm.

This Program Made Possible By Storm: Brought to you by high-powered cards in all 5 colors.

Pce,

--DC

[MTG-Fan]

He does run alot of discard effects, and 4 Pact, though.

It's not like he doesn't have any disruption/protection whatsoever.

[metalhead]

it's amazing how scimilar that deck is to old SI. but honestly if your looking to play "budget" combo. just play beltcher. with 4 EtW 4 beltcher main, it doesnt mulligan nearly as hard as your list with 4 situational tutors and 3 ad nausiums. of course it may require shelling out a little cash for chrome moxen, LeD's, and taiga/stomping ground. but hey you'll be on your way to having a competative legacy deck.

[matelml]

The problem with the list is that it's not consistently going to find AdN. Onlt 7 ways is way too few. Most lists run at least 9 plus 6 cantrips. Pretty much any hand without AdN or Intent would be a mulligan, because you can't relie on drawing it within the first 4 turns, after which you have a significant disadvantage. I think a monoblack list is possible, but i't would have to look like SI even more.

[emidln]

// Bad ANT
3 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Diabolic Intent
4 Shield Sphere
4 Phyrexian Walker
2 Ornithopter
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
6 Swamp

You could probably get away with something like this. The key to being mono black is running both Infernal Tutor and Diabolic Intent. The deck probably wants more initial mana sources (the biggest choking point in SI) as basic Swamps and a Mox Diamond or two, but I don't honestly care enough to tune it.

If you're going to shell out for LEDs or already have them yet don't have Fetches/Duals, you should seriously be playing TES so you're not left reinventing the wheel yet again. TES has years of solid testing and writing behind it that should help you learn quite a bit. SI pretty much has what B.C., Breathweapon, and I wrote on it, sporadically, and is a completely different deck.

Anyway, problems with the list I presented (after a quick visual inspection):

Powder Keg is your out to Chalice unless you use 5c lands or some other shitty nonbasic (like painlands)
The ratio on sacrifice spells to tall men is all sorts of wrong.
You'll mull a lot with 10+ tall men in your deck.
You'll mull a lot with only 14 initial mana sources (hint: find a way to add Swamps since they're basically free (off AdN))

If you want to consistently survive a targeted discard spell (Duress, Thoughtseize, flashed back Therapy), you probably need more bombs. I would say minimum of 18 (although I think 20 is closer to 80% of having two bombs in hand). In a deck without cantrips, your own Duress+Therapy aren't nearly as scary for the enemy as that Diabolic Intent/Infernal Tutor/Ad Nauseam in hand. The 4th D.I. and then maybe a blue splash off City of Brass/Gemstone Mine/etc for 4 Mystical Tutor should help this (you don't necessary want Brainstorm if you have to run shit like Underground River for budget reasons).

P.S. Songs of the Damned is worse than Cabal Ritual and Culling the Weak. LED was played in tutor-SI because it helps offset the cost of using 2 mana tutors. If you can't afford them, you should probably look into a build with Mystical Tutor (even off 5c lands or painlands).

[Moosedog]

Hello all, I have been playing magic for a long time, and have been involved with legacy for about 4 years now. I have just joined this site although i have been reading it for a couple months now...

Main reason for this post, i wanted to start a discussion on the sideboard. im contimplating whether or not its worth running a trop in the board so that i can also run Krosan Grip in the board.. this would basically be taking the place of Wipe Away. Keep in mind i plan on going to about a 100 person tourney that im expecting a large amount of CounterTop...

I also have a general question about the gameplay of magic as well. no one i know is acually 100% certain on the answer. Here is the 1st part. Say I play an an AdN and in response to my own AdN i play an Angel's Grace. Can the AdN be countered by my opponent? if that answer is no it cant be countered, Say now my opponent has a Counterbalance in play and happens to have a 1 mana CC Spell on top. If the Counterbalance counters my Angels Grace and he still has the mana up to play a counterspell on my AdN, Can he or has his chance for priority been taken by my Angels Grace...?

[Enigma]

How it works:

You cast AdN and before passing priority, you cast Angel's grace. This one goes on the stack, your opponent can respond by a triggered ability but not by any activated ability nor any spell. When Angel's Grace resolve (or not), then the priority goes back to your opponent for the AdN. He can now do whatever he wants in response to it (i.e. counter it)

I'm pretty sure it's the right way to see this stack, but if someone else could confirm...

P-M

[Kilz88]

So I am in no way new to the format but I am very new to this deck. I have been messing with this list:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Duress
4 Orim's Chant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Chrome Mox
1 Wipe Away


Sideboard:
4 Dark Confidant
3 Krosan Grip
1 Tropical Island
3 Slaughter Pact
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Extirpate
1 Rebuild
1 Echoing Truth

Now a lot of you keep refering to the IGG loop? In what way is it a loop. I mean, I get that if you play that card you win but in what way is it a "loop"?

[emidln]

Killz: that list is pretty close to one that mateml has been playing for awhile with a lot of success. If I remember correctly, you're +1 Wipe Away, -1 Ponder from his 60. Myself, I'm something like

-4 Duress
-1 Orim's Chant
-1 Infernal Tutor
-1 Cabal Ritual
-1 Chrome Mox
-1 Swamp
-1 Tundra

+4 Silence
+2 Sensei's Divining Top
+1 Ponder
+1 Plains
+1 Island
+1 Scrubland

I don't play Swamp because I never fetch out black mana early (I lack Duress). Plains is better with 7 chants main, the 8th in the sb, and 4 serenity available postboard as well. I play 10 cantrips with 15 lands including 3 basics. This seems to be the correct configuration if you're facing a lot of Tempo Thresh and Merfolk, although worse against Counterbalance decks. I have 1 Trop Island, 1 Bayou available out of the sideboard to support Krosan Grips and a pair of Xantid Swarms.

The IGG loop refers to the fact that if you played multiple IGG (as did this deck before Ad Nauseam was printed (FT played 2 IGG)) you could chain together two acceleants and an IT to generate a lot of storm out nothing. This isn't a new concept (Iggy Pop has done it since Infernal Tutor was printed, and TES did it shortly thereafter), but it's generally not necessary anymore since most people would rather tutor for Ad Nauseam when facing discard instead of Infernal Tutor (the only time you need the loop to hit 20 lifeloss was if you played Infernal Tutor with no storm (i.e. after dumping some LEDs and other artifact mana onto the table against b/g suicide and then casting mystical tutor to put IT on top of your deck)).

If you test Dark Confidant, I'm fairly certain you'll find him lacking against control. They don't always board out their removal spells due to lack of relevant stuff to board in or the idea that they might be able to STP their own Goyf or Factory to put them outside of lethal storm range in addition to dealing with stray Confidants or Xantid Swarms (which is why I don't run a full set anymore).

[rsaunder]

If you test Dark Confidant, I'm fairly certain you'll find him lacking against control. They don't always board out their removal spells due to lack of relevant stuff to board in or the idea that they might be able to STP their own Goyf or Factory to put them outside of lethal storm range in addition to dealing with stray Confidants or Xantid Swarms (which is why I don't run a full set anymore).This. Bob seems great on paper, but the format's just so creature heavy right now that most decks just can't take out all their removal. I've won quite few games with cards I really wanted to beard out from control decks.

[Kilz88]

emidln: So you are not the only person switching from duress to more chants. Is this an preference or is it starting to become the acceptted "better" build? I am thinking about playing this for worlds and I dont have a lot of time to test both builds. Is duress safer? Also, if bob is not very good, what could I replace him with?

Thanks for clearing up the "IGG loop" reference. I mean, I understand what the card did, I just didnt see why they were refering to it as a loop you know?

[Pulp_Fiction]

I posted this over in the FT thread but figured I would post it here as well as I am not sure how many people read both threads.
Took a DDFT Hybrid to my local tournament today and went 4-0-2 and split the prize in the top 4 out of 30ish people. I got really good matchups but the deck was performing flawlessly. Here is the list I took followed by a short report:

4x LED
4x Orim's Chant
4x Dark Ritual
4x Brainstorm
4x Top
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Lotus Petal
4x Infernal Tutor
3x Cabal Ritual
2x Silence
2x Chrome Mox
1x Tendrils
1x KGrip
1x Meditate
1x IGG
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Doomsday

4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
2x Underground Sea
1x Tundra
1x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Tropical Island
1x Island

Sideboard
2x Xantid Swarm
2x Disenchant
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Doomsday
2x Krosan Grip
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Naturalize
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Silence
1x Plains

Round 1 - G/R/w Welder Survival
g1 - He lands a turn 2 Survival and I win VIA IGG loop on turn 4.
g2 - Opening hand is beautiful and I easily setup for the turn 2 AdN kill.

Round 2 - BW Board Control w/ Sinkhole, Thoughtseize, Vindicate
g1: Turn 1 I get Thoughtseized and win on turn 3 after Brainstorming into MT, and Tutoring up AdN with Dark Ritual in hand.
g2: Turn 1 I get Thoughtseized and my hand is: LED, LED, Naturalize, Tundra, fetch, Infernal Tutor, Mystical. He takes Mystical and I draw another MT and play land go. He Thoughtseizes again on his turn 2, again taking the MT and next turn I use the IGG loop for enough damage to kill him since Thoughtseize helped me out. Turn 1 and 2 discard spell and I still win on turn 2 .... pretty fucking good!

Round 3 - Zoo w/ Teeg in the board
g1: I keep a really solid hand and he gets a blazing start but I win with IGG loop on turn 3.
g2: I keep a mediocre hand because I am willing to gamble with my 7 and he keeps a hand with just land and Relic of Progenitus but no pressure (mulled to 5 or 6). I fire off AdN on turn 4, he is stalled on 1 land but I don't want to give him time to drop Teeg or something and AdN into garbage but I eventually hit Petal, LED, Dark Rit, IT, and play Chrome Mox and Petal, Chain of Vapor Chrome Mox back to my hand and copy it for Petal, drop my hand and IT with LED in play into Tendrils.

Round 4 - Draw

Round 5 - Draw

Top 8
Round 6 - Mono-White Kithkin from standard. Again, no joke, he was undefeated up until this point and was tearing some good legacy decks apart.
g1: Mull to 6 and open up: Dark Ritual, MT, Trop, fetch, Chrome Mox, Chant .... god I love combo, EOT I MT for AdN and easily win on turn 2.
g2: I keep a weird opening 7: MT, MT, Brainstorm, land, Cabal Ritual, IT, and Dark Ritual. I plan on going the DD Route since I haven't yet but after I draw a third MT I decide to Brainstorm and hit another land and LED. This deck is to good, put back what I don't want, EOT MT up another Dark Ritual and IGG him out on turn 3. I remember the first time I saw a legacy combo deck play and thought "WTF"??? That was exactly what this kid did. He looked at me after g1 and said "I have nothing to stop that ... I don't think there is anything I can do". Then after the round was over he asked me "is there any way to stop your deck?" I told him the usual hate cards like Null Rod, Teeg etc. and he was just dumbfounded still, he even made a comment that our 2 games were like not even playing Magic. I agreed, this is the point of combo, your opponent has cards ... but very few of them even matter.

Overall I had spectacular matchups and the deck performed flawlessly. I never lost a single game, and only mulliganed twice out of 8 games. I am really feeling this build. The deck feels so solid, and for a while I felt that I didn't even need DD, but I knew against blue AdN would be coming out and 2 more DD would be coming in. I also never really drew Top ... at all. The draws were pretty good and there were a few games I had it in my hand but it was never really necessary. STILL, I am glad it was there should my hands be terrible and in need of filtering. In round 1 I almost did a turn 2 DD go against Survival with: IT, Ritual, Ritual, Cabal, Petal, Petal, land in hand but he had Survival in play and was afraid of a turn 3 Platinum Angel so I kept my options open. Eventually winning on turn 4 after I drew IGG. The SB was HOT all day, I feel it was really dialed into the meta this week. Against most aggro decks I go: -1 Grip, -3 to 6 Chants and add in all my 3x Disenchants, 2x Chain of Vapor, and Slaughter Pact, but it depends on the deck and how many Disenchants I want because I don't want to mess up AdN very much. Against any blue deck without Counterbalance I would go -1 AdN, -2 Chrome Mox, -2 IT and +2 Xantid Swarm, +2 DD, and +1 Silence, against Thrash and Merfolk board in the Plains in the spot of Sea #2. Against anything with CB I would board just like above and in addition go -1 Cabal Ritual, -1 Lotus Petal and +2 Grip. I really feel this SB is cabaple of handling basically anything and is super effective against nearly everything you will encounter. Thoughts?

[MTG-Fan]

Again with the T2 decks in the top8! Wtf?

How is a Kithkin player getting into the top8 of a Legacy tournament? Either he's an extremely good player or he's just extremely lucky.

I mean, Kithkin literally cannot beat combo, obviously, but I don't see it ever beating Landstill, Survival, hell, any Legacy aggro deck with a damn Jitte.

[Nelis]

Again with the T2 decks in the top8! Wtf?

How is a Kithkin player getting into the top8 of a Legacy tournament? Either he's an extremely good player or he's just extremely lucky.

I mean, Kithkin literally cannot beat combo, obviously, but I don't see it ever beating Landstill, Survival, hell, any Legacy aggro deck with a damn Jitte.

White Aggro with a couple of first strikers, Path to Exile, Figure of Destiny and Burrenton Forge Tenders beats Goblins, Merfolk, ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh (i'm not sure about Zoo) and has a good game vs control. Even Jitte isn't a problem as long you have a first strike creature (Kithkin plays 8 vs max. 4 Jittes) on the board first.

If you combine this with a good player, a bit of luck (not encountering combo) then you can end up high in the tree. (You can check out my list for an example when it comes to a Legacy ww decklist http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14116)

[MTG-Fan]

White Aggro with a couple of first strikers, Path to Exile, Figure of Destiny and Burrenton Forge Tenders beats Goblins, Merfolk, ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh (i'm not sure about Zoo) and has a good game vs control. Even Jitte isn't a problem as long you have a first strike creature (Kithkin plays 8 vs max. 4 Jittes) on the board first.

If you combine this with a good player, a bit of luck (not encountering combo) then you can end up high in the tree. (You can check out my list for an example when it comes to a Legacy ww decklist http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14116)

Honestly, I can see them possibly beating Goblins because of Path+Forge-Tender, and I can see Kithkin sometimes beating Thresh because an early Cloudgoat slips through, or they get early Spectral Processions that evade CounterTop lock, but I cannot envision Kithkin beating a Legacy control deck, or a Legacy combo deck, like ever.

And if Jitte ever resolves vs. Kithkin, they just lose, period. I've played vs. the deck alot during the Lorwyn block Standard season, and yes, it's a decent aggro deck but it's most definitely not on the same level as Legacy decks.

I say it must have been a hell of alot of luck.

[Nelis]

It wont beat combo that's for sure. That's where luck comes in.

But it beats thresh because it has much more creatures with path to exile to get rid of Tarmogoyf. It generally has more threats that ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh can counter. And in midgame Ranger of Eos (after you've ridden them of their counters) gives you Figure of Destiny which will be 8/8 so you can finish them off. It works.

And you are absolutely wrong about Jitte being game over. First strike creatures make it very hard for it to gain counters and then there's Path to Exile to prevent equipping a creature. And he might have some artifact removal to help him out a bit as well. And you don't know what specific list he is playing and what the meta game exactly is.

[Pulp_Fiction]

God damn standard decks ... they are a bitch for all the people playing Counterbalance garbage but a bye for combo!!!! It is actually very entertaining because they show what decks are good at beating random garbage and what types of decks are strictly metagame decks .... and the DDFT Hybrids are certainly not the meta decks :)

[FredMaster]

I finished 3-1 with pulp_fiction's list yesterday using the following sideboard:
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [WL] Doomsday
SB: 1 [M10] Silence
SB: 1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [SH] Mox Diamond
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [B] Plains (3)
SB: 2 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 [VI] Helm of Awakening
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 [AQ] Hurkyl's Recall

I won against Zoo, Uwb Landstill and a Combo Deck with few protection.
My loss was unfortunate, I guess. I lost to another Zoo deck, which surprised me in Game 2 with a Chant in response to my Doomsday (which would have killed him that turn).
In Game 3 I held a hand that would have won easily, if I drew some business. The only thing I assembled over the next turns were some Chants and a Doomsday - he still beats my pass-the-turn-pile which 2 burnspells and a Lavamancer (I Orim's Chanted him, paying the kickercosts).

Still I was quite impressed with what the deck could do, and therefore I am satisfied with the list so far.
I didn't like the 3 Disenchant-effects in your sideboard, pulp_fiction (my meta has very few amounts of staxx), therefore I gave the alternative kill another try. It wasn't needed (again), although I boarded it against Landstill. I think at the moment ppl aren't playing Meddling Mages anymore and Ethersworn Canonist can be answered much easier.
So props again for the poster above me.

[Pulp_Fiction]

@FredMaster: Glad you liked the list. I hate running into an unexpected Orim's Chant from a damn aggro deck. Not sure why they aren't playing Teeg or Null Rod since those cards can apply to other matchups and I personally have never seen a "combo heavy" meta too justify running Chant in the SB just for the combo matchup!

The 3 Disenchants are for the standard hate cards in my meta, everyone decided to follow whienot and play the Null Rod tech and a lot of people have started boarding in Pyrostatic Pillar. So in addition to Chain of Vapor I thought it would be better to have more Disenchants to handle the stuff I commonly see, Stax randomly shows up 1-2 times a month and they certainly do help that matchup as well!

While playing the deck did you ever want Ponder? I have been considering trying to fit in 2x Ponder but not sure what to cut or if I would actually want to cut those cards. The deck feels like it has just the right number of rituals and moxen, did you ever find yourself with too much mana? Cabal Ritual is most likely what would be cut to fit in Ponder but ... not sure if that is worth it. I think it would take away to much speed. Perhaps going -1 Top, -1 Cabal Ritual and +2 Ponder, but that makes DD out of the board a little weaker.

[FredMaster]

While playing the deck did you ever want Ponder?

I did see some mana-heavy hands without much business. But I wouldn't change the maindeck except for 1 Cabal Ritual and/or 1 Lotus Petal.
Lotus Petal though is definitely one of the best cards, AN flips can give you.
I wouldn't like to weaken that part of the deck more and more.
What I would never drop is the Sensei Top. I just love and hate (too powerful) the card for what it does.
I'd recommend you to test a Chrome Mox or Mox Diamond from the Sideboard. I've been testing the extra Moxen since Emidln's GP Chicago list and loving that extra Anti-Aggro Boost from the SB. Especially here adding a 3rd Moxen to the Maindeck after sideboarding won't weaken your opening hands too much, I think.

[Dark_Cynic87]

I'd run all Sensei's, Tops and then if you have open slots, fill in with Ponder. Honestly, Ponder isn't any better than Top when you are running a D-Day in the MD and 2 in the Board; in fact, it really puts you at a disadvantage due to the fact that it's a card good against only what you are already good against, i.e. aggro and etc like what you played against in the tourney. It makes no sense to run 3x D-Days and only 2x Top. Blue Cantrip piles are significantly more difficult to pull off as LED isn't an option prior to cantripping into your 5 card stack.

That's my opinion.

Pce,

--DC

[Pulp_Fiction]

Exactly what I was thinking, going down to 3x Top will substantially weaken DD, but my thought process was it might speed the deck up a little with less Top and more Ponder, but I might be trying to solve problems that aren't there. In just regular ANT without DD I really like 3x Top and 2x Ponder but .. didn't run DD, and in the hopes of making the aggro matchups even better it would weaken the blue matchups.

@FredMaster: I have played Mox Diamond in TES Hybrids with 13 lands and really didn't like it, but with 15 that is a different story. Do you think Mox Diamond or a 3rd Chrome Mox would be better? Cause in the opening hand Chrome Mox can always be used and Mox Diamond seems a little situational.

[FredMaster]

Do you think Mox Diamond or a 3rd Chrome Mox would be better? Cause in the opening hand Chrome Mox can always be used and Mox Diamond seems a little situational.
I'd go with the Mox Diamond (you might have guessed it) because I think there are less situations in which you are willing to sacrifice a spell than those in which you find yourself with a "useless" land in hand.
On a minor note Mox Diamond can be better with AN, if you don't flip that much cards (very rare).

[Moosedog]

I have a general question about the gameplay of magic . no one i know is acually 100% certain on the answer. Here is the 1st part. Say I play an an AdN and in response to my own AdN i play an Angel's Grace. Can the AdN be countered by my opponent? if that answer is no it cant be countered, Say now my opponent has a Counterbalance in play and happens to have a 1 mana CC Spell on top. If the Counterbalance counters my Angels Grace and he still has the mana up to play a counterspell on my AdN, Can he or has his chance for priority been taken by my Angels Grace...?

My assumption is that once the Angels Grace resolves priorty then passes to my opponent, and he or she at that time can counter my AdN. But if someone could confirm it would be much appreciated. Thanks Enigma for responding but as you said i want someone to confirm...

[TheMightyQuinn]

Once Angel's Grace resolves, it is no longer on the stack. At this time, since there is no longer a split second card on the stack, your opponent can counter AdN.

[FredMaster]

I went 6-1 in a tournament with 78 attendants, becoming 2nd.
I hardly had any bad matchups all day, the deck did a good job though.
First of all the 75:
// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [B] Tundra
1 [B] Scrubland
2 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Tropical Island
1 [B] Island

// Spells
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [TE] Meditate
1 [WL] Doomsday
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
2 [M10] Silence
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [B] Dark Ritual
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [TO] Cabal Ritual
2 [MR] Chrome Mox
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [WL] Doomsday
SB: 2 [M10] Silence
SB: 1 [TO] Cabal Ritual
SB: 1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [SH] Mox Diamond
SB: 2 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [B] Plains
SB: 1 [AQ] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate

The matchups I won't add any comments to were:
2x Zoo/Sligh
1x Affinity
1x BG (Aggro?)Rock

I also won against Solidarity (8 Chants ftw, in game 2 he wins against 3 of em -.-) and Progenitus Threshhold due to the lack of Counterbalances in his hand. My loss was against Merfolk, because I'm apparently not able to win against Merfolk with any deck.
My opponents always go berserk, after they've showed me some of their mana denial and disruption package. I hate it...

Props:
- Deck
- Team L.A.
- Lack of Sleep and Doomsday Piles

Slops:
- Lack of Sleep and Doomsday Piles
- long way there/home
- Price Payout (three wb nonblue Duals for the winner??)
- throwing away one game against Affinity (without Hate), due to inattention

[Manhattan]

- Price Payout (three wb nonblue Duals for the winner??)


That has to be Dülmen, right?

[GreenOne]

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [B] Tundra
1 [B] Scrubland
2 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Tropical Island
1 [B] Island

// Spells
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [TE] Meditate
1 [WL] Doomsday
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
2 [M10] Silence
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [B] Dark Ritual
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [TO] Cabal Ritual
2 [MR] Chrome Mox
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [WL] Doomsday
SB: 2 [M10] Silence
SB: 1 [TO] Cabal Ritual
SB: 1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [SH] Mox Diamond
SB: 2 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [B] Plains
SB: 1 [AQ] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate

First off, I'm playing your maindeck with -1 Tundra, -1 Tropical, -1 Krosan Grip, -1 IT, -1 Cabal Ritual, +1 Swamp, +1 Wipe Away, +3 Ponder. My SB is a bit different:
SB: 2 [M10] Silence
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [VI] Helm of Awakening
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [U] Tropical Island
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 1 [PS] Rushing River

I got some questions:

- Why no Ponder? Only 8 draw spells aren't great with 1+2 Doomsdays in the deck, and also with the cabal rituals.
- Why 2 Slaughter pact? isn't 1 + Bounce spells enough? You can also mystical for it, play it, and put it again in a Doomsday stack.
- Why 3 Doomsday, but no Helm+Grapeshot? It's indeed a solution against almost every hate bear and if Tendrils gets exiled.
- I did never test Extirpate in the 8 chant versions, how is it? what are siding it against?

[DragoFireheart]

Well, it's about time this deck hit DTW status. I have a question about the price of this deck as I was interested in making it at some point.

[GreenOne]

Well, it's about time this deck hit DTW status. I have a question about the price of this deck as I was interested in making it at some point.
Depends on what you already got.
Duals and fetches aside, the really costy part of the deck are Chants (10€) and LEDs (15€). The rest is below 5 Euros a piece.

[FredMaster]

That has to be Dülmen, right?
Correct.


I got some questions:
Why no Ponder? Only 8 draw spells aren't great with 1+2 Doomsdays in the deck, and also with the cabal rituals.

I never liked the card in this still fairly tempo-oriented Deck (that's the reason why I posted it in the ANT-thread and not in the one for Fetchland Tendrils). I often had the problem that I held a too slow hand with a bunch of cantrips. If I'm sideboarding in my 2nd and 3rd copy of DD, I'll have a reasonable amount of time more to build I my comboturn, and therefore finding my drawspell/Top. Ponder always felt almost as weak as Chrome Mox to me or Cabal Ritual.
Also:

But I wouldn't change the maindeck except for 1 Cabal Ritual and/or 1 Lotus Petal.
Lotus Petal though is definitely one of the best cards, AN flips can give you.
I wouldn't like to weaken that part of the deck more and more.



Why 2 Slaughter pact? isn't 1 + Bounce spells enough? You can also mystical for it, play it, and put it again in a Doomsday stack.

The sideboard was more or less thrown together, at least looking at the last 2-3 slots.


Why 3 Doomsday, but no Helm+Grapeshot? It's indeed a solution against almost every hate bear and if Tendrils gets exiled.

The last time I saw a Meddling Mage was ages ago and cards like Gaddock Teeg can just be handled by Slaughter Pact much easier.
That's mainly the reason (as I claimed a few posts earlier) why the alternate combo is not the way to go for me anymore.
Having my Tendrils exiled has actually never happened to me, since Extirpate is an (luckily) underplayed card and Leyline of the Void/Relic + Discard is something you will rarely find. Plus you will not often be holding a Tendrils in your hand or at least you will be trying to get rid of it by Brainstorm+shuffle effect or the like.
Therefore it's rather unlikely that they will have you discard it and then remove it as well.


I did never test Extirpate in the 8 chant versions, how is it? what are siding it against?
Well you know, it's not really that much of a difference since you will have your Chant forced/counterspelled even more often than you have the chance to actually pick a Force with your Duress (Brainstorm).
I've been siding it in against Solidarity, Merfolk, Treshhold and the like. Almost any deck with a Force should be right. You obviously don't side it in if there are more important things, like more Chants or Krosan Grips.
The other kind of Archetype I side it in against is the one that disrupts you with either Manadenial or Discardspells (Eva Green/Dead Ale/etc.).

I will mark the slots in my sideboard that I am unsure about (even if it's just the number).

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [WL] Doomsday
SB: 2 [M10] Silence
SB: 1 [TO] Cabal Ritual
SB: 1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [SH] Mox Diamond
SB: 2 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Plains
SB: 1 [AQ] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate

Oh and Chrome Mox should also be above 5 Euros, Green One.

[GreenOne]

You're right about Mox! :rolleyes:

What's your plan against CB decks? I usually go with -2 Mox, -1 Cabal Ritual, -3 Ponder, -1 Wipe Away, +2 Tropical, +3 K.Grip +2 Silence. I'm unsure about the Silences and if keeping AN or not post SB: the cmc of the deck is way higher, and I don't have moxes anymore.

Against the other decks the plan is pretty simple: if they're playing counters then side silence, if not then take aout the silences and chants and bring some serious number of bounce.

I played for some time with the SB plains too, but found myself wanting it only if I'm playing Serenity in the SB.

[FredMaster]

What's your plan against CB decks? I usually go with -2 Mox, -1 Cabal Ritual, -3 Ponder, -1 Wipe Away, +2 Tropical, +3 K.Grip +2 Silence. I'm unsure about the Silences and if keeping AN or not post SB: the cmc of the deck is way higher, and I don't have moxes anymore.

I'd board roughly this:
-2 Chrome Mox
-1 Ad Nauseam
-1 Infernal Tutor
-1 Cabal Ritual
-1 Lotus Petal
+1 Doomsday
+2 Krosan Grip
+2 Silence
+1 Extirpate

Boarding out Moxes and keeping in AN is not the way to go. In case you board out more tempo like Cabal Ritual or slowing yourself down with more lands, AN becomes more and more useless.

[tsabo_tavoc]

I'd board roughly this:
-1 Cabal Ritual
-1 Lotus Petal

Why do you board it in favor of -2 Cabak Ritual?

[emidln]

Additional Cabal Rituals let you pursue the Infernal Tutor->IGG plan easier than Lotus Petal. Given that they're both pretty bad postboard against CB, the one that helps one of your two win conditions is likely the better choice. I'd also board in the Plains against CB.

[GreenOne]

I find many people boarding Relic of Progenitus when there's nothing better, I don't believe Cabal Ritual becomes better post SB, and even more better than Lotus Petal, that it's an effective Green source and 3rd mana for K.Grip, and helps against Daze.

[lilrikki2000]

hey everyone...I am new to this deck and had a few questions:
1. for those who use doomsday, what do you typically doomsday for
2. what is the iggy plan?
3. how do you usually win out?

[DragoFireheart]

What's the matchup ratio vs CounterTop? 40/60? 30/70? (In CounterTops favor)

[Pulp_Fiction]

@FredMaster: Good job man, glad to see the Hybrid DDFT lists putting up results :) Can we get a short tournament report about a few individual matches or get a little detail about what happened with Merfolk?

@lilrikki2000: Please read the thread, I am not sure how many times I have actually described to people what the IGG loop is. In short: LED + LED + IT + IGG is a loop that usually generates enough storm to win, nowadays we only have 1 IGG so you have to play some shit beforehand to reach lethal storm.

If you do not know what the IGG loop is I would strongly suggest you NOT play Doomsday. Go onto deckcheck.net and look at the Spanish ANT lists that win by casting Ad Nauseam, and that alone, that would be a good place to start if you want to learn combo. Doomsday is ridiculously hard to get the hang of playing and even worse while playing people when the opponent is pressuring you to hurry up, I take my time because ... fuck them, but still, it is very difficult, especially if you don't play combo.

@drago: Give us a list instead of saying "how does this deck do against .....". This is not productive, there are numerous different builds for ANT so simply post a list you like or play around with on MWS and we will tell you how it will do or what you should to do improve the matchup.

[DragoFireheart]

@drago: Give us a list instead of saying "how does this deck do against .....". This is not productive, there are numerous different builds for ANT so simply post a list you like or play around with on MWS and we will tell you how it will do or what you should to do improve the matchup.


I don't have a specific list and wasn't aware if variations would make a difference in the matchup. I was simply trying to get an idea of how favorable/unfavorable CounterTop matchups are.

[emidln]

I don't have a specific list and wasn't aware if variations would make a difference in the matchup. I was simply trying to get an idea of how favorable/unfavorable CounterTop matchups are.

Generally unfavorable (40-60 maybe a little worse, maybe slightly better depending on the exact list) unless you are playing a 0-LED list with a bunch of red blasts main. The infy red blast lists have a favorable CB matchup (generally in favor of a worse everything else).

[Pulp_Fiction]

I hate to speculate because there are a ton of things to consider, land count, protection spells, SB cards, etc. I will give you the stats for a deck like this, here is my standard list for ANT:

4x Dark Ritual
4x LED
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Infernal Tutor
4x Brainstorm
4x Orim's Chant
4x Lotus Petal
4x Cabal Ritual
3x Silence
2x Chrome mox
2x Ponder
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Tendrils
1x IGG
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Krosan Grip

4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
2x Underground Sea
1x tundra
1x Scrubland
1x Bayou
1x Tropical Island
1x Island

Sideboard
2x Xantid Swarm
2x Krosan Grip
2x Slaughter Pact
2x Disenchant
2x Chain of Vapor
1x Ray of Revelation
1x Ad Nauseam
1x IGG
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Plains

With a build like this your matchup is roughly 45/55 in favor of Thresh with CB and then about 50/50 after SB. I always say it depends on how good the combo decks draw is because combo decks are the most unfair archetype and just simply are that good, but they are their own worst enemy. The reason for these odds is the deck is not running Doomsday, and after Krosan Grip comes in I always cut Ad Nauseam because the odds of winning with it while having minimal Rituals/Moxen/Draw in the deck and having more KGrips and Swarms is bad. You can take you chances but they aren't good. So in this matchup I just play it like Iggy Pop because I have a shit ton of Chants. BUT this suffers if they bring in graveyard hate.

If you are playing Doomsday your odds go up because you are essentially reliant on nothing and don't run AdN or it is sided out for more DD. Odds are a lot better. But it depends on the build of DD. Chants, Blasts, land count. But everything is give and take, this deck obliterates literally everything except Stax/Stompy variants and CB Thresh. But a deck like DDFT w/ 10-12 protection spells will have a spectacular matchup with blue but suffer a little in the aggro matchups because it can not consistently kill on turns 1-4.

[FredMaster]

Standard ANT List

Why do you play Xantid Swarm instead of just more Chant-effects?
With Xantid Swarm it feels like having a permanent-Chant that suffers from EE, Deed, Stifle, other Spotremoval (maybe even flying creatures on the other side, if you just need that safe cantrip/set up spell) while also weakening your manabase.

Can we get a short tournament report about a few individual matches or get a little detail about what happened with Merfolk?

Before the match, both of us have been playing at the front tables so I should have known, he was playing the Goatsefolk. But when we were rolling dices to see who starts, I suddenly was pretty sure that he played Elves...
I kept a hand of (approximately), on the draw: Chrome Mox, Brainstorm, Brainstorm, Mystical Tutor, Mystical Tutor, Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual.
This could have been a mulligan but I figured that it should be enough for Elves together with the 8th card.
Well he opened with Island, Cursecatcher and I already knew what had to come. Brainstorm did find some good cards + a land but it was obviously wasted on his next turn.
So yeah, that was game 1. In game 2 I held a decent hand (as far as I can remember) but he had multiple Cursecatcher + Lords and therefore a pretty fast clock. As I said, I hate to loose against that kind of deck but he made me even more angry when he said that he had no idea what he was playing against and showed me that he boarded Relics out for Kira, Great Glass-Spinner to have more critters, since he thought I was playing a slowish deck. :mad:

The rest of my games where really boring, to be honest. I was always able to assemble the IGG-loop or an early AN against Zoo/Sligh and Affinity (I even killed the Affinityplayer first turn on the play, g2 - yeah, I scrubbed game 1).
I didn't have a tough time against the one Thoughtseize of the Rockplayer from round 1, just assemble an early kill easily.
In game 2 though he made me discard LED, then extirpated it and dropped a Hypnotic Specter. I held two LPs, a threshed CRitual as my only handcards and knew from my Top I was going to draw AN. I casted it on like 18 life and won easily. That's why I love playing combo.
The games were over fast and when I watched my Teammate play against target random opponent, I looked to the match on his right and saw Solidarity own a Countertopplayer. Then I told my Teammate in jest, that I'd love to play against that Solidarity guy with my 8 Chants :P
Guess what I was paired against the next round xD
The three games were all thrilling, I really had a blast. But in the end, I can go of protected, on turn 2 (I boarded Doomsday, Meditate and Grip out for Mox, Cabal and Extirpate) and he will even have trouble doing that on turn 3.
The last round was also easier than expected because the CB player only had Daze and Force against my Chants, which is obviously not enough.

//Edit: Top 4 can be found here, by the way: http://www.trader-online.de/turniere/Decks/2009-08-T15.html
I was pretty tired so please don't blame me for that deckname. I really thought I was going to fail fucking hard.

[Moosedog]

Took the following list to my local, had about 35 people this weekend...

4x Dark Ritual
4x LED
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Infernal Tutor
4x Brainstorm
4x Orim's Chant
4x Lotus Petal
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Duress
2x Chrome mox
2x Ponder
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Tendrils
1x IGG
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Krosan Grip

4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
2x Underground Sea
2x tundra
1x Scrubland
1x Tropical Island
1x Island

Sideboard
1x Tropical Island
3x Krosan Grip
2x Silence
2x Angel's Grace
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Disenchant
1x Slaughter Pact
2x Hurkyl's Recall


Please Criticize anything you may disagree with,
tournament was 4 rounds of swiss...

Round 1, Dredge (I knew what he was playing)
Game 1: Im on the play, draw the NUTS... RIT RIT Land AdN = GG
Game 2: hand is (SdT Sea Mystical LED Petal Tundra ) 1st turn land StP, opponents 2nd turn gives me a scare he does alot of dredging but just doesnt quite have it. My 2nd turn drop LED Lotus Mystical for AdN, crack LED and Lotus top for AdN = GG...

Round 2, Goyf Sligh
Game 1 He bolts me 2x I IGG Loop on turn 3 ( he also had a goyf in play)
Game 2 side in the 1 Grace 1 chain of vapor and 2 disenchant... he borded in 4 cards i still have no idea what they were... i played Adn and Grace on turn 4...

Round 3, Painter/CounterTop
this kid drew God hands against me...
Game 1 (Im on the draw) He goes 1st turn Ancient Tomb Painter. I go Sea Ponder. He Goes on Turn 2 Another Ancient Tomb Gindestone!!! = Gmaeover
Game 2 1st turn i play duress snag a counterbalance he didnt have a grindstone or painter in hand... but he did have 2 ancient tomb... he goes ancient tomb painter!!! TOP DECK... i go, not exactly what i played but i didnt go off. he goes Ancient Tomb Grindstong!!! R U SERIOUS KID... TOP DECKS AGAIN...

Round 4, Painter, Control
Game 1 i mull down to 5 cards... not a good start... i didnt get any chants or duress, he counters my mysticals and infernal tutors. he gets a Magus of the moon in play and i cant recover, he eventually kills me with painter combo, this match took like 30 min. i have no idea how...
Game 2 1st turn StP, 2nd turn top deck Adn... I duress take his only counter. Rit Rit AdN = GG
Game 3 kind like the 1st, we ran out of time. I seriously have no idea how a painter deck and a Combo ran out of time... but whatever we were talking and joking around alot...


Overall i enjoyed the deck as i have for a while now... the thing i would like to discuss the most is my sideboard... any sugestions at all i would appreciate.

also StP was a house and i am in the process of depating on taking out the ponder for 2 more top. i saw some previouse discussion in the forum on that but i would like some more opinions on the matter, after doing some playtesting which ill admit hasnt been to extensive i feel like 2/2 is the best. but if someone thinks otherwise, please post your reasoning...

@Pulp Fiction: How do u feel the Doomsday version would have done against the Painter Control Decks? Clearly the my 3rd matchup was rediculous, but i still feel like the amount of control and the speed of his combo might be problematic... I have the Doomsday and have been thinking about trying that version...

[Pulp_Fiction]

@FredMaster: I play Xantid Swarm because it saves mana on the combo turn and oftentimes just the threat of it makes you opponent keep in their removal and take out cards that actually matter. I have always loved how hard he is to answer, and if they do ... sweet, thats less storm I have to account for when they StP their own creature. If it resolves and you have life, it is also an auto-win against Merfolk as they have no real answer for it.

Glad to see you did so well with the deck, and you did have pretty good pairings ... ah, 8 Chants, yet another reason to not play Solidarity :)

@Moosedog: The 2/2 Ponder/Top split has been working very well for me, glad to see you agree. Doomsday would have been a little better but don't expect to win all your blue matches with it. DD makes things a shit ton easier and you usually have ample time to setup the combo but blue can sometimes just have "that hand" that you can't do anything about, but that is how combo is to just about every single other deck so I think it is an even tradeoff! I would highly recommend DD as it is the most versatile and adaptable combo card that there is! If you want to learn how to play with DD read emidln's primer on MTG Salvation

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=127049&highlight=doomsday

He talks about all the different stacks and how to play it. You will have to spend a LOT of time getting the hang of it, but in the end DD is the best card to have against blue!

[emidln]

If you want to play Doomsday, you're going to need to test and read a lot. First off, I recommend that everyone playing storm combo read this:

Four Tips on Winning With Mana Drain (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/11244_Four_Tips_on_Winning_With_Mana_Drain.html) by Brian Demars

This is about Vintage, but lessons 1 and 4 are very relevant to Legacy storm combo. After that, there are two articles on the mindset for building Doomsday piles that I can recommend:

Rehearsing the Doomsday Scenario (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/9361.html) by Stephen Menendian is an article about the original Vintage Doomsday deck that goes in depth about how to create Doomsday piles. While the piles themselves are not relevant at all to this format, the procedures are largely the same.

Crafting Doomsday Piles in Legacy Storm Combo (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13968) is an article that I wrote about exactly this subject. It walks you through the steps for constructing Doomsday piles (in particular piles through onboard hate).

I had a page somewhere explaining Doomsday piles but I think i lost it. I'll try to write something up listing known useful piles.

I'd recommend reading over the ANT and Fetchland Tendrils threads here on the source. Further, join the storm boards and read our discussions on the deck.

There have been various attempts at a primer over the last year or so. I never quite get around to finishing them. There is the remnants of one on MTGSalvation in their Legacy archives.

[katakis]

I had a page somewhere explaining Doomsday piles but I think i lost it. I'll try to write something up listing known useful piles.

Do you mean this page? http://emidln.googlepages.com/doomsdaystacks
Found this by googling for dd piles about a year ago.



I'd recommend reading over the ANT and Fetchland Tendrils threads here on the source. Further, join the storm boards and read our discussions on the deck.


I heard a lot about these stormboards, but I couldn't find any link to it. Mind posting a link?

[emidln]

Do you mean this page? http://emidln.googlepages.com/doomsdaystacks
Found this by googling for dd piles about a year ago.


That and I had an updated, more comprehensive one on a test server. That one is sadly lost unless I can find it in my backups. The googlepages site is really old and doesn't reflect some useful technology available, although the piles that are listed there should all work.


I heard a lot about these stormboards, but I couldn't find any link to it. Mind posting a link?

http://teamstormboards.proboards107.com

[Pulp_Fiction]

Once again I took a DDFT Hybrid to my local tournament and went 4-1 then we all did a top 8 split because everyone was ready to leave. The tournament was about 33ish people and here is the list I played followed by a short tournament report:

4x LED
4x Orim's Chant
4x Dark Ritual
4x Brainstorm
4x Top
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Lotus Petal
3x Infernal Tutor
2x Ponder
2x Cabal Ritual
2x Silence
2x Chrome Mox
1x Tendrils
1x Wipe Away
1x Meditate
1x IGG
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Doomsday

4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
2x Underground Sea
1x Tundra
1x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Tropical Island
1x Island

Sideboard
2x Xantid Swarm
2x Disenchant
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Doomsday
2x Krosan Grip
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Naturalize
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Mox Diamond
1x Plains

Round 1 - ANT
g1: We both mull to 6 and I keep a double Chant hand, he only play's Pact and Duress. He attempts to go off through double Chant but he can't and I have a Top in play, a lot of lands and my hand was: DRit, MT, LED. MT into AdN, cast LED and Rit, blow up LED, activate Top and win!
g2: I mull to 5 and keep. He keeps a hand with all acceleration and I eventually draw into Top and filter into 2 Silence, Doomsday, Meditate, and a lot of rituals. He has no answer for the second Chant and loses to a DD pile of: DRit, DRit, Top, Top, Tendrils.

Round 2 - Merfolk
g1: Mull to 6, keep a hand with Top and lose after fetching numerous times and being unable to with because I can't draw a Ritual or Petal.
g2: Keep an awesome hand a lose to: FoW, double Daze, and double Cursecatcher. This is the kind of bullshit I would argue should not happen, again I am 1 mana short of comboing off because I can't draw a single Ritual or Petal. However, I should have won because I had Silence resolve with Curse catcher in play and I had enough mana to cast Infernal Tutor and blow up both LEDs but Cursecatcher stopped me. I had Top in play and fetched IGG with UUUBB floating and play it with U floating, I bring back LED, LED, Ponder and play both LEDs. I SHOULD HAVE BROKEN THE LEDS with Ponder on the stack but because I had 4 hours of sleep the night before I fucked up, Ponder revealed MT which would have fetched a lethal Tendrils and Top draws it ... fucking hell.

Round 3 - Rock
g1: Mull to 5 and keep MT, DRit, land, CRit, Chrome Mox. Draw IT on turn 1 and win on turn 2.
g1: Win on turn 2 with IGG loop after being Throughtseized.

Round 4 - Affinity
g1: He keeps a slower hand and gets Chanted on turn 3 and I win with AdN easily.
g2: After a mull to 6 my hand is: LED, CRit, DRit, Petal, land, IT. I draw another DRit and win on turn 1!

Round 5 - R/W Board control
g1: I keep a good hand and IGG him out on turn 2.
g2: We are both screwed. He draws a shit ton of mana and I look at the top 3 of my library (after shuffling each time) at least 5 times and never draw a second land. He plays 2 Pyrostatic Pillars and they both get Disenchanted (kept an opener of: land, Disenchant, Disenchant, Top, Top, DRit, CMox. I never hit my second land and win on turn .... 10 with DD. The pile was: Meditate, Petal, Rit, Rit, Tendrils. All he could draw was mana, Pyrostatic Pillars, and Engineered Explosives that killed a Mox and LED.

Top 8 split. Overall the deck was performing VERY well. I am really liking the 2 Ponders and never missed the 4th IT. The 3rd Cabal Ritual would have been hella nice but I really liked the Ponders. Overall the deck felt solid and I really like this build. Only thing I would change is the SB. I really want that 3rd Xantid Swarm for the Merfolk matchup. Maybe I will only board in 2 in the Thresh but I really want that third in the board. Other than that, everything was tip top! Thoughts?

[GreenOne]

I am really liking the 2 Ponders and never missed the 4th IT. The 3rd Cabal Ritual would have been hella nice but I really liked the Ponders. Overall the deck felt solid and I really like this build. Only thing I would change is the SB. I really want that 3rd Xantid Swarm for the Merfolk matchup. Maybe I will only board in 2 in the Thresh but I really want that third in the board. Other than that, everything was tip top! Thoughts?
I really like that list, and indeed I'm playing with a similar one (I recently cut the 3rd ponder for the 15th land), with the only difference being a Wipe Away instead of Krosan Grip, and no green lands MD (2 SB though).

I'm glad you found those Ponders useful, you won't miss the third Cabal Ritual, cause with more cantrips you're going to make Threshold more relevant for the 2 you got.

Why are you playing with Disenchant/Naturalize? you already have a Krosan Grip MD and 2 SB, shouldn't it be enough? You also seem lacking in the bounce department. Why don't you switch some number of DE effects for bounce? Why 2nd-3rd disenchant/naturalize over Serenity?

[FredMaster]

Why are you playing with Disenchant/Naturalize? you already have a Krosan Grip MD and 2 SB, shouldn't it be enough? You also seem lacking in the bounce department. Why don't you switch some number of DE effects for bounce? Why 2nd-3rd disenchant/naturalize over Serenity?
As he already pointed out earlier in this thread (really not too long ago), he wants to side that stuff in against Aggro.
I wouldn't play Serenity just due to the fact that you can't tutor it up, if needed.

[GreenOne]

As he already pointed out earlier in this thread (really not too long ago), he wants to side that stuff in against Aggro.
I wouldn't play Serenity just due to the fact that you can't tutor it up, if needed.
Sorry, I'm really too lazy (and busy) to read the last X pages of this thread. In some days I'll gain confidence with the thread and ask less stupid things.

However, I was arguing playing serenity over the 2nd or 3rd copy of Disenchant/Naturalize, so you still have one or two tutorable ones.

I find myself siding in the tropicals more than not:
I side out the chrome moxes for lands when I'm also siding out AN.
I obviously side them against LD decks.
Against aggro decks I usually go for -6 chants, +2 lands +4 bounce/removal.

Are you experiencing the same thing?

[Pulp_Fiction]

Sorry, totally forgot that I still had Grip in the list. I ran Wipe Away instead as I was testing it out and seeing which I liked better, never needed it and it was sided out every match.

I stopped playing Serenity after it kept getting Disenchanted and ORinged. The people in my meta choose to run Pyrostatil Pillar and Null Rod as their hate cards so I just run Disenchants in the board. They are strictly a meta choice and I run a mix of Disenchants and Naturalize because there are times when I may be color screwed and only have access to one of the colors so I can Tutor up which one I need. I really just don't like Serenity since I can't Tutor for it and it usually gets removed before it does anything. Maybe I have just had bad luck with the card, but I have never once encountered problems with Disenchant being ineffective against hate so I prefer them. 2x Chain and 1x Slaughter Pact has been very spectacular removal for the hate bears. I would like a second Slaughter Pact but I currently don't have room. Most likely the 3rd Swarm is going back in and I am cutting the Mox Diamond. I never really drew it or flipped it with AdN and thus far I have only failed on 1 AdN in a tournament running 4x Petal 2x Mox so I am not sure how necessary it is. BUT Mox Diamond would be great against Dragon Stompy and Stax.

[lilrikki2000]

I am starting to get the hang of this....just alot more pre-planning than most decks

@pulp: I noticed you were switching b/w krosan grip and wipe away....are you considering changing that spot to ponder, IT, or c ritual? btw...do you play at supergames?

[Pulp_Fiction]

Damn, I am not that runk, only took me 1 attempt to login! No, you have to have 1 maindeck bounce spell to make the deck viable against hate. Basically I have 1 maindeck answer to CB and a bunch of SB answers to the card. Yes, I do play at Supergames, its the best card shop in Atlanta and has the best Legacy turnout of any shop I have seen. If you are in the area I highly recommend checking it out!

[FredMaster]

I just returned from another big tournament (120+ players), same story as last time to be honest. I went 6-1 again, ending up 3rd without any bad matchups.
The list was the same as last time except for -1 Slaughter Pact +1 Angel's Grace in my sideboard (post #1046).
The meta turned out to be very strange this time. Just a little randomness for reference:
3 Enchantress Decks
4 Belcher
3 Ichorid
2 Elfball
2 43lands.dec

I won against 2x Zoo/Sligh, 1x Elfball (thx Chants), 1x Belcher (same), 1 BW Deadguy, 1x Aggro Loam (just remembered).
I only lost to Belcher in game 3 due to a stupid mistake.
After Game 2 I forgot to change my counter for his lifepoints back to 20. Since he used Street Wraith twice in game 2, I figured he'd be on 16. I was unable to see his graveyard because there was some stuff above and I really really forgot about it. Therefore I did some strange stuff, which would have worked out perfectly, if only he had been on 16 lp.
I took Mystical, Sensei's Divining Top and Silence back from IGG, knowing that he'll have a Pyroblast. I had 3 black and 3 blue floating and an untapped Tundra. I dropped the Top, used it to look at my top 3, then had to pass the turn.
He drops a Charbelcher shortly after that (2 LP in play) so I responded with my Silence. I was even able to assemble Tutor+LED the next turn but he just responded with Desperate Ritual and won :/
If I would have won that game I would have been paired against ITF though, which is definitely less favourable then my Goyfsligh Matchup in round 7.

Overall it was a fun event, but I really don't want to participate in another big tournament filled with Goldfish-matchups. :frown:

//Edit: Last matchup added.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Congrats man, good finish. I love playing against Belcher, just wait for Seething Song! I am not sure that I get what you are saying. You actually seem bothered that you are playing the best deck (DDFT) in the environment and then gorilla fucking all your opponents with it. This is the whole point of a combo deck, your opponet has cards ... but most of them don't even matter. Consistent combo decks that can reliably fight through hate cards are on a whole different level than everything else. Personally I like goldfishing the deck, and everytime you stomp the shit out of some person who is un-prepared for combo, just goes to show how much better DDFT is than the rest of the decks in the format. Personally I am happy either way, whether I get a shit ton of easy matchups and turn 1 wins or fight my way out of several tight spots using strategies I had previously not thought of, makes no difference to me, just as long as the deck is performing well and I am not encountering bad luck and bad draws, its a good day!

[Wargoos]

Congrats man, good finish. I love playing against Belcher, just wait for Seething Song! I am not sure that I get what you are saying. You actually seem bothered that you are playing the best deck (DDFT) in the environment and then gorilla fucking all your opponents with it. This is the whole point of a combo deck, your opponet has cards ... but most of them don't even matter. Consistent combo decks that can reliably fight through hate cards are on a whole different level than everything else. Personally I like goldfishing the deck, and everytime you stomp the shit out of some person who is un-prepared for combo, just goes to show how much better DDFT is than the rest of the decks in the format. Personally I am happy either way, whether I get a shit ton of easy matchups and turn 1 wins or fight my way out of several tight spots using strategies I had previously not thought of, makes no difference to me, just as long as the deck is performing well and I am not encountering bad luck and bad draws, its a good day!

Well you see, he has some midlife crisis and just can't be happy with himself

@Fred:
Mad propz man, I knew team L.A. would've get a top finish, even if you were the lone attendant.
I couldnt come cuz I was lying around somewhere - naked and drunk.
But I had some chick, so it was ok ;)
And hell, you convinced me to play this again.

[FredMaster]

I am not sure that I get what you are saying. You actually seem bothered that you are playing the best deck (DDFT) in the environment and then gorilla fucking all your opponents with it.
It's obviously another good result with the deck, but I feel like it's not worth much. I don't need to spend 7+ hours with nerds in a hot, smelling room just to goldfish them away, one after the other - then spending 30 minutes with smoking, waiting and laughing at douches.
I find it far more interesting to play against decks that really have the power to harm you. I just want to prove that I can do good against those decks too :/


I love playing against Belcher, just wait for Seething Song.

Round one against Belcher was really fun, since it ended after 2 minutes with a 2:0 for me and an unhappy Belcher player (am I sadistic?).
The guy was really a clichee Belcher player, he had almost his entire deck pimped and still ran the Stomping Ground (foil, though) instead of Taiga. :tongue:
What makes my loss against Belcher in round 5 less humiliating was the fact that I knew the pilot and also knew that he's an experienced Stormcombo player. So it was overall the most exciting of all rounds.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Fair enough, I know I can beat blue players with combo but I prefer to not play them very often because I don't like leaving luck to decide the matchup. The blue match is largely dependent on your draws, how many land drops you hit, pieces of protection you have, what Top gives you, where as against decks that don't run CB you oftentimes don't even need a land to win. The reason I honestly can't play anything besides combo is no other deck challenges my brain enough or keeps me entertained long enough to play it. There is only so much joy you can get attacking with Tarmogoyf again and again and again. But everytime I figure out how to play the hand the deck gave me, in particular when I am getting shit and still find a way to win, thats what keeps me playing combo. Contrary to what people want to think, there is a lot more to it that rituals and AdN. If you ever find a deck that is not monotonous and racks your brain like combo, please tell me so I can give it a try. Only deck that I have ever played that came close is Eternal Garden, but there is no reason to play that when Aggro Loam is just better, much more boring, but better.

[lilrikki2000]

wow...mindbreak trap is crazy....now we must go off w/ a silence/orim's chant/duress....the aggro matchups are no longer a gimme w/o protection post zendikar

[Bane of the Living]

wow...mindbreak trap is crazy....now we must go off w/ a silence/orim's chant/duress....the aggro matchups are no longer a gimme w/o protection post zendikar

I think storm combo should seriously call it quits now. Why bother trying to beat this card, its going to be joined with Force and Counterbalance half of the time. The other half of the time your going to be hit with it from nonblue decks!

Seriously, quit. It's obvious that they had eternal magic in mind this time around. Boosting aggro and killing the degenerate mechanic known as storm.

I know there is no Vault/key combo to swap to but there is still grindstone.

[kicks_422]

If a deck already has CB/Top and FoW, I don't think they'll be needing this Trap out of the SB for combo. This card would only see play in decks without blue, and if that's the case, the only thing that would change would be that Storm players wouldn't be siding out Chants anymore at all.

[whienot]

Come on guys. The sky is not falling. Solidarity will be hit he hardest.

[rsaunder]

Come on guys. The sky is not falling. Solidarity will be hit he hardest.I don't honestly know if it'll see much play outside of true aggro (goblins, elves), since it doesn't deal with our chants which have always been the problematic spells for permission based decks. Just leave in some chants.

[whienot]

I doubt it will stay in aggro boards. It will be tried, no doubt, but without any kind of cantrip/draw/filter it won't be found consistantly. Even then, as mentioned, it won't help against chant/silence.

[sunshine]

The trap card is really nothing more than a situational FoW against this deck. I'd rather my opponent side that in than Chants or discard. Honestly, I think it's horrible and wont see competitive play. Who's going to board it? Everyone playing blue wont bother, everyone else with white would rather play Chant.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Ok, Mindbreak Trap ..... so. If someone is honestly dumb enough to put a useless card like this in their SB for a matchup they will rarely ever see, more power too them. This card is no better than ..... Stifle. If aggro decks want to play this, who cares? Duress and Chants stop it. All this means is they will be changing to different forms of hate and combo will adapt to whatever combination of cards they are running, answer them, and win shortly afterward.

There is honestly no reason to run this in a SB over cards like Null Rod, Teeg or Cannonist since those cards can be used in other matchups. But if someone honestly feels the need to run this in their SB as a way of beating storm combo because their meta is all storm combo ... GL I guess, maybe the combo player won't have any clue what they are doing .....

[Bane of the Living]

I don't honestly know if it'll see much play outside of true aggro (goblins, elves), since it doesn't deal with our chants which have always been the problematic spells for permission based decks. Just leave in some chants.

But see the problem is that as long as Chant is the spell that gets countered you can try to combo all you want. Mindbreak will get you in the end. I don't see the point in suffering such an uphill battle.

LED is still legal, swap to Ichorid or even Belcher.. At least belcher can play ESG's and less than 3 spells a turn if it needs to.

[Bane of the Living]

The trap card is really nothing more than a situational FoW against this deck. I'd rather my opponent side that in than Chants or discard. Honestly, I think it's horrible and wont see competitive play. Who's going to board it? Everyone playing blue wont bother, everyone else with white would rather play Chant.

Why wouldn't you play it running blue. It's a 4 drop for counterbalance to play with to help shore up stax and counter Ill Gotten Gains. It still is a counterspell that will probably be worse against daze and better against Counterbalances for blue mirrors.

I think Chant was a crutch to begin with. Now your more than reliant on it. Like I said if Chant gets countered by.. lets say counterbalance, how do you then stop Mindbreak?

Wizards very clearly decided to fix the problem that was storm.

[MMogg]

Why wouldn't you play it running blue. It's a 4 drop for counterbalance to play with to help shore up stax and counter Ill Gotten Gains. It still is a counterspell that will probably be worse against daze and better against Counterbalances for blue mirrors.

I think Chant was a crutch to begin with. Now your more than reliant on it. Like I said if Chant gets countered by.. lets say counterbalance, how do you then stop Mindbreak?

Wizards very clearly decided to fix the problem that was storm.

At most it is a new counter to stop the Storm mechanic, but that doesn't make the whole deck dead by any means. Combo has always had to play around control decks, and has always been susceptible to countermagic, that's not new to Magic. So at best this new card makes Storm into a normal combo deck playing around counters. Also, what you say presumes they draw one and it doesn't get disrupted.

[Bane of the Living]

At most it is a new counter to stop the Storm mechanic, but that doesn't make the whole deck dead by any means. Combo has always had to play around control decks, and has always been susceptible to countermagic, that's not new to Magic. So at best this new card makes Storm into a normal combo deck playing around counters. Also, what you say presumes they draw one and it doesn't get disrupted.

So your telling me that now that there is a card printed that says...

0 MANA
INSTANT
EXILE ANY NUMBER OF SPELLS

..somehow won't be a bigger problem than Stifle. Than Force of Will? Stifle still needs one blue mana. Force still needs one blue card (and one life).

This is it folks, if your still playing storm combo onces this card hits the community your a masocist. Every tournament will be a migrane waiting to happen no matter your success. I think it's time to move on and finally make some innovations. Adding more and more chant and discard just waters down the combo more and more.

If your on the side defending storm your only sitting in a sinking ship. Every great player knows when to stop playing a deck and when to start playing another.

[MMogg]

So your telling me that now that there is a card printed that says...

0 MANA
INSTANT
EXILE ANY NUMBER OF SPELLS

..somehow won't be a bigger problem than Stifle. Than Force of Will? Stifle still needs one blue mana. Force still needs one blue card (and one life).

This is it folks, if your still playing storm combo onces this card hits the community your a masocist. Every tournament will be a migrane waiting to happen no matter your success. I think it's time to move on and finally make some innovations. Adding more and more chant and discard just waters down the combo more and more.

If your on the side defending storm your only sitting in a sinking ship. Every great player knows when to stop playing a deck and when to start playing another.

Storm is a degenerate ability, I think everyone knows that, and all this new card does is make it a little less degenerate by providing a counter to the Tendrils. It might as well say "counter Storm". That being said, if you look at it like that, all that has happened is that Storm has been made into a "normal" combo by being able to be countered. But that is only one card that can counter it. 4 cards in a 60 card deck against a deck that is completely attuned to the combo. The combo is far from dead.

Edit: By the way, "Live by the combo, die by the combo" has always been my motto. Any combo player knows you are trading consistency for raw power. Combo decks are notoriously easily disrupted, but skilled combo players can get around that disruption. Combo decks are not suited for pick up and play like aggro. You need to know the deck very well to abuse the combo. That's why I say this combo is far from dead.

[Media314r8]

So your telling me that now that there is a card printed that says...

0 MANA
INSTANT
EXILE ANY NUMBER OF SPELLS

..somehow won't be a bigger problem than Stifle. Than Force of Will? Stifle still needs one blue mana. Force still needs one blue card (and one life).

...rant, rant, rant...

It won't be a bigger problem than stifle or FoW, as FoW counters spells, not just spells in storm decks, and stifle still nukes fetches, deeds, wastes, ect. This card will not be as much of a problem for storm because it will never be maindecked, ever. Force and stifle are playable cards in their own right that happen to be very to moderately effective against combo. Mindbreak is a horribly narrow sideboard card that IMO is worse than chalice at 0/1 against combo, as chant and duress both stop it's usefulness, opposed to chalice, which comes down as early as turn 1/2, and usually needs to be bounced/grudged/griped/spree-d to generate enough mana/storm for a lethal tendrils.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

So your telling me that now that there is a card printed that says...

0 MANA
INSTANT
EXILE ANY NUMBER OF SPELLS

..somehow won't be a bigger problem than Stifle. Than Force of Will? Stifle still needs one blue mana. Force still needs one blue card (and one life).

This is it folks, if your still playing storm combo onces this card hits the community your a masocist. Every tournament will be a migrane waiting to happen no matter your success. I think it's time to move on and finally make some innovations. Adding more and more chant and discard just waters down the combo more and more.

If your on the side defending storm your only sitting in a sinking ship. Every great player knows when to stop playing a deck and when to start playing another.

Chill. The hell. Out. Obviously, you hate Storm Combo decks with some crazy passion. However, just as obviously, you don't really understand how they work.

Mindbreak Trap will be another wrinkle for the Storm Combo player to deal with, but think about it: They Chant you before they try to go off. Or they Duress you, etc. At the point they Chant/Duress you, there haven't been three spells played by them this turn, unless they don't know what they're doing. So your Mindbreak Trap either gets discarded, or it just sits there in your hand looking dumb. Then they get up their storm count and go for the kill.

If you want to point to a deck that gets "killed" by this card, it would be Solidarity. Which is pretty much already dead-er than dead.

I don't play Storm Combo decks myself, but I know enough about the game and how it works to deduce this much. Think a little bit before you go declaring your least favorite archetype "dead," just because they're printing one card that's semi-effective against the strategy. Mindbreak Trap is decent. But it's not going to change the meta all that much. The decks that will use it will probably be mostly aggro strategies, and really mostly stuff like Goblins that has an atrocious combo match-up.

[lilrikki2000]

i think that card is good against vintage tendrils....but now like someone said above, you will just kp chants in against aggro if it gets popular

[ClearSkies]

If you want to point to a deck that gets "killed" by this card, it would be Solidarity. Which is pretty much already dead-er than dead.


But it can only exile spells on the stack under it. While Solidarity is dead, Mindtrap really isn't any more deadly than trickbind/stifle/chant/etc. Solidarity can still respond to the Mindtrap.

[alderon666]

Ok, it's not the end of the world. But you have to admit it's going to be a pain to play around.

Say a goblin player sides in a bunch of cards game 2. How many Chants/Silences do you keep in? Then he starts and opens with Land Aether Vial. He can apply some pressure quickly, have some discard (Duress, Thoughtseize or Cabal Therapy) AND have a zero mana counter.

Can you really afford trying to go off without Chant? How easy is it to get white mana for it? What if they discard your Chant? Are you going to play Duress and Chants maindeck? Won't that water down the deck too much?

Notice how none of these questions are doom-like, but they raise important points you should ask yourself.

As a 3-of in my goblin sideboard it looks ok, I'm fine having it in to at least give me a chance on this horrible matchup.

[chokin]

I don't think that this is the end of ANT (some people are talking like it is) but it is a new card that players will have to take into consideration now. It is scary when it's backed by a clock instead of counters (or Merfolk being both).

What do you guys think of REB in the SB to deal with it? Or does it suck to put it in and have it when your opponent doesn't play it and just giggles? Is Duress enough?

Maybe Zendikar will give combo some love. Maybe.

[GreenOne]

So your telling me that now that there is a card printed that says...

0 MANA
INSTANT
EXILE ANY NUMBER OF SPELLS


This is it folks, if your still playing storm combo onces this card hits the community your a masocist. Every tournament will be a migrane waiting to happen no matter your success. I think it's time to move on and finally make some innovations. Adding more and more chant and discard just waters down the combo more and more.

If your on the side defending storm your only sitting in a sinking ship. Every great player knows when to stop playing a deck and when to start playing another.

So your telling me that now that there is a card printed that says...

2BB MANA
ENCHANTMENT
IF IT'S IN YOUR OPENING HAND, YOU BEGIN THE GAME WITH IT IN PLAY. IF A CARD WOULD BE PUT INTO AN OPPONENT'S GRAVEYARD, REMOVE IT FROM THE GAME INSTEAD.

This is it folks, if your still playing Ichorid onces this card hits the community your a masocist. Every tournament will be a migrane waiting to happen no matter your success. I think it's time to move on and finally make some innovations. Adding more and more bounce spells just waters down the deck more and more.

If your on the side defending Ichorid your only sitting in a sinking ship. Every great player knows when to stop playing a deck and when to start playing another.

So your telling me that now that there is a card printed that says...

1 MANA
ARTIFACT
NAME A CARD. ACTIVATED ABILITIES OF THE NAMED CARD CAN'T BE PLAYED UNLESS THEY'RE MANA ABILITIES.

This is it folks, if your still playing Survival onces this card hits the community your a masocist. Every tournament will be a migrane waiting to happen no matter your success. I think it's time to move on and finally make some innovations. Adding more and more disenchant spells just waters down the deck more and more.

If your on the side defending Survival your only sitting in a sinking ship. Every great player knows when to stop playing a deck and when to start playing another.

So your telling me that now that there is a card printed that says...

2 MANA
ARTIFACT
PLAYERS CAN'T PLAY ARTIFACTS' ACTIVATED ABILITIES

This is it folks, if your still playing Affinity onces this card hits the community your a masocist. Every tournament will be a migrane waiting to happen no matter your success. I think it's time to move on and finally make some innovations. Adding more and more non-artifacts just waters down the deck more and more.

If your on the side defending Affinity your only sitting in a sinking ship. Every great player knows when to stop playing a deck and when to start playing another.

[Shawon]

So your telling me that now that there is a card printed that says...

0 MANA
INSTANT
EXILE ANY NUMBER OF SPELLS

..somehow won't be a bigger problem than Stifle. Than Force of Will? Stifle still needs one blue mana. Force still needs one blue card (and one life).

This is it folks, if your still playing storm combo onces this card hits the community your a masocist. Every tournament will be a migrane waiting to happen no matter your success. I think it's time to move on and finally make some innovations. Adding more and more chant and discard just waters down the combo more and more.

If your on the side defending storm your only sitting in a sinking ship. Every great player knows when to stop playing a deck and when to start playing another.

http://cyn.ical.us/media/blogs/mymedia/prophet_lol_cat.jpg

[Pulp_Fiction]

GreenOne summed up Bane very well! But I will have to say, since this one card, which there possibly can't be any kind of answer too, that will hardly even see play is going to be printed, I am going to quit playing storm combo. The card is just SOO GOOD! AND IT DESTROYS THE WHOLE DECK!

Honestly, Bane, I hope you were joking, but in the case that you weren't, I am not sure wtf u are talking about. Chant ..... lose. Why would a combo player ever play spells beforehand unless it is a single spell drawing into the protection spell?????

@alderon: I actually hope people do start packing this card in their SB. Those wasted slots are going to affect other matchups and randomly win a game against combo if you catch them off guard. So you will lose more and win less. Not sure why you would not just run Null Rod or Chalice but ... hey, that would be smart, playing cards that can be sided in in more than one matchup is just an all-around terrible plan. And no, it is not going to be a problem, we have access to 8 Chant effects and 8 Duress effects, not too concerned.

[mercc]

I play the spanish variant with Pact of Negation.

If I only use one mana-accelerant and then play Ad Nauseum, he can't counter the nauseum+accelerant, then I will flip up atleast 2-3 Pacts along with all the other stuff, then it will just be there in my hand for when I play the tendrils, no problem at all.

[chokin]

I play the spanish variant with Pact of Negation.

If I only use one mana-accelerant and then play Ad Nauseum, he can't counter the nauseum+accelerant, then I will flip up atleast 2-3 Pacts along with all the other stuff, then it will just be there in my hand for when I play the tendrils, no problem at all.

Your scenario might not always be workable though. The deck doesn't play a whole lot of lands. Maybe if you also have a full set of Lotus Petals. Pact is worse than Chant though just because I've used Chant as a quasi Time Walk when the opponent has pressure down and I need like one more turn.

[mercc]

The spanish variant play crystal vein to. So if you have 1 swamp och 1 crystal vein + dark ritual you are off. And if you don't have that you have to change your strategy to playing out your lotus petal/petals the turn before you go off.

I'm trying out the differences between Pact and Chant main as protection. Versions with LED desperately need chant. But I dont like that chant costs you mana, Pact is just there, sitting and waiting to protect you for free. But cant be used during your opponents turns.
I guess that the 3 mana from LED compensates the 1 mana to play chant. I don't know yet.

But as stated, Mindless trap does nothing for blue decks. Aggro variants that harass your life total and can have that free-card on hand may be annoying.

[chokin]

I just don't like that Pact is only good on the combo turn. Like I stated before, Chant can be a Time Walk against some decks. It can also hose opposing combo without you being forced to lose the game.

[Pulp_Fiction]

God damnit, this cycle never ends, I wish more people posted on the stormboards more often so I could only post over there, but no. I deleted my comment as nothing good can come from this debate yet again.

[meanee]

Agreed...

[Pulp_Fiction]

Exactly, agreement i good! YAY!!!!

[FredMaster]

Hey gais, I did another Top8 finish with the same old crap :P (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=373814&postcount=1046)
33 attendants, 5 rounds of Swiss

Round 1 against UB(r) Painter Deck
Game 1 I can set up way faster than him. Standard DD piles does the job.

-1 Doomsday -1 Meditate -1 Sensei's Divining Top
+1 Cabal Ritual +1 Mox Diamond +1 Extirpate

Game 2
Turn 3 AN vs. mulligan to 6 on the draw + bad deck.
Guess what happened.

Round 2 against Canadian Threshhold
Game 1 He has only an untreshed Mongoose as a threat but keeps annoying me with Stifle, Wasteland and Spell Snare (targeting my Infernal Tutors as set up). This gives me enough time to assemble another sweet win of Doomsday on about 5 life.

-1 AN -2 Chrome Mox -1 Krosan Grip -1 Tropical Island -1 Lotus Petal
+2 Silence +1 Plains +1 Extirpate +2 Doomsday

Game 2 My opponent mulligans to 5 and this time holds pretty much only pressure. That's not enough against hands with 1+ Chant effects.

2/0/0/4-0-0

Round 3 Aggro Loam
This was the same guy I happened to run into at the "Sommer-Mercadiade".
He recognized me as well (turn 2 kill twice last time :P) and said something like "you'll like this hand". Since he won the diceroll he opens with Land, Mox Diamond, Chalice for 0, Chalice for 1, go.
:o
I'm holding 2 LED, Petal, Chants, Top, Cabal Ritual + land...
During the next turns, I draw more fetchlands + dead cards and do nothing. He drops a Confidant, keeps fetching all the time so he's about 14 lateron and I figured, that a Tendrils or Infernal Tutor would do it. But then he finally starts to create some pressure with a Crusher. I still don't draw my win condition and therefore have to watch him go berserk with his crusher (at the beginning of his combatphase he was like 13/13).
frowntown

-1 Krosan Grip -1 Doomsday -1 Meditate -1 Silence
+1 Mox Diamond +1 Cabal Ritual +1 Extirpate +1 Echoing Truth

Game 2&3:
I draw the nuts and show him that this matchup definitely IS in my favor.

Round 4 UBG Thresh? (went 5-0-0)
Game 1 he actively shows me, that he has more than enough hate: Force of Will, Daze, Spell Snare, Thoughtseize, Vendilion Clique and Wasteland.
Boarding Plan:
-1 Ad Nauseam -2 Chrome Mox -1 Krosan Grip -1 Tropical Island
+1 Plains +2 Silence +1 Doomsday +1 Extirpate

Maybe sideboarding like that was the wrong decision, but I guess the matchup was fairly unwinable with a mulligan to 5 on the play.

Round 5 random Red Deck
I checked that deck out earlier since it looked VERY random. Some things I saw:
Mishra's Factory, Relic Barrier, Bottled Cloister, Ensnaring Bridge, Pyroclasm, Winter Orb, Lightning Bolt.
::)
w/e
4-1-0, good times

I become fourth and am again happy with the result. Still no changes needed, if you ask me.

[mercc]

Good report. I like reading those stuff, that's when the deck actually gets tested.

I still haven't learned the hard way to play combo, doomsday-piles :)

[Muradin]

Why have several players dropped Duress in the last few weeks? I feel that Duress is stronger than Chant / Silence in many matchups as it can be cast the turn before you go off and thus you need less mana to win in your comb turn. In general I have been playing combo decks for quite a long time now and still think that Duress is superior to both, Chant / Silence and Pyroblast in most matchups.

[emidln]

Why have several players dropped Duress in the last few weeks? I feel that Duress is stronger than Chant / Silence in many matchups as it can be cast the turn before you go off and thus you need less mana to win in your comb turn. In general I have been playing combo decks for quite a long time now and still think that Duress is superior to both, Chant / Silence and Pyroblast in most matchups.

Duress has the same problems today that it had 3 years ago in Vintage: it doesn't address decks that play more than just Force of Will. In Vintage we saw this with Mana Drain. In Legacy we often experience it with Spell Snare and Stifle mixed in. Chant / Silence is the only way we can reliably force our opponent to have Force of Will or lose. Duress cares about whatever your deck cares about, but Chant/Silence only cares about hard counters.

Duress has a bunch of misc issues to go with it. Ad Nauseam in particular is a pretty unreliable draw engine in a lot of matchups (those involving decks with more than 8 creatures) causing (most of) us to default to Ill-Gotten Gains. Duress is miles worse than Chant / Silence when you need to win with IGG.

Interestingly enough, Chant / Silence is actually better against permanent-based disruption decks than Duress as well as we can expend them during the upkeep to guarantee that they won't play something hateful (Chalice, Trinisphere, etc) whereas Duress often runs into issues with opponents having multiple hate cards (similar to the Stifle/Spell Snare issue). Against fast aggro like Zoo, upkeep Chant effects largely stop an opponent from applying pressure (creatures can't attack you if they can't be cast) which in turn saves life totals making our storm engines more reliable. Chant / Silence is incidentally better against black-based aggro-control too.

As far as I can tell, the only places Orim's Chant / Silence isn't better than Duress are in the mirror against a list that runs Pact of Negation and against Counterbalance decks.

[Bahamuth]

Also, Duress sucks against SDT and to a lesser extend Brainstorm.

[emidln]

For those interested in ANT with Doomsday, Michael Seubert (cheeseburger on Storm Boards, Jurgen on mtg-forum.de) and I have been working on a new list of Doomsday piles. It's currently published on Google Docs at http://docs.google.com/View?id=d3hxs7m_16cr3v59c9. It is a living document and has been receiving constant updates as we refine piles/discover new generally useful piles.

As a side note, I posted a short tourney report of a swiss+1 that I participated in using NLS over the weekend. NLS being an ANT derivative, this is probably the best place to post that. http://emidln.blogspot.com/2009/09/tourney-report-legacy-on-9-19-2006-i.html

[surly]

As a side note, I posted a short tourney report of a swiss+1 that I participated in using NLS over the weekend. NLS being an ANT derivative, this is probably the best place to post that. http://emidln.blogspot.com/2009/09/tourney-report-legacy-on-9-19-2006-i.htmlNice report (although I didn't find the time yet to read the whole one yet), anyway... did you ever miss additional Silence/Chant effects? What's you point in re-adding Duress and cutting Chants? I can't count the games where Chant simply won me the game.

But I know you already know the advantages that Chant gives you compared with Duress. As far as I can imagine, you probably run Duress in a meta where you want to pick 1st turn Chalice/CB ... are there any other reasons? My meta is nearly CB free with only a few Chalice decks around, so I can't think of a good point not running Chant over Duress.

[DragoFireheart]

The thing about Mindbreak Trap is that ANY deck can use it. Zoo can use it, Goblins can use it, 7-land stompy can use it, Burn can use it.

ANYONE can sideboard this card if they catch wind of storm decks being played in their meta.

[whiteshepherdman]

The thing about Mindbreak Trap is that ANY deck can use it. Zoo can use it, Goblins can use it, 7-land stompy can use it, Burn can use it.

ANYONE can sideboard this card if they catch wind of storm decks being played in their meta.


2 cards: Orim's Chant/ Silence

[GreenOne]

2 cards: Orim's Chant/ Silence
Exactly. It's also a narrow card for everybody's sideboards. It's a card that gets sided ONLY in the combo matchup, where Gaddock Teeg, Runed Halo, Red Blasts, Chalice, etc at least have other uses, and people can side them in more than one matchup.

I'd wonder if, in a month or two, I encounter this card more than zero/one times in a tournament. It's going to get packed only by people currently running Chants in the board, probably, so the answer are going to be the same: duress or chant before going off.

[stacker]

I'm a noob to ANT, just picked the deck up as a handmedown from a friend. My question is, what's the different between this deck and TEPS in the other forum? Only difference I can really see, is that the other deck runs an ichorid manabase whereas this runs the dual/fetches. On that note, which manabase is superior?

[Nidd]

TES is just harder to play and more rewarding. This deck fails without ANT, TES has more options.

I think this decks manabase is better, but TES makes up for this with brutal power.

[emidln]

TES is just harder to play and more rewarding. This deck fails without ANT, TES has more options.

I think this decks manabase is better, but TES makes up for this with brutal power.

You sound like you're fucking terrible with combo decks.

Anyway, the skill level required to play the 14-16land fetchland-based Tendrils decks and rainbowland-based Tendrils decks is similar. The biggest decisions you'll face are cantrip decisions followed by the question of when to go off. There are other decisions (tutor targets, sideboard decisions are huge, when to go for Ad Nauseam vs another win condition like IGG, interaction questions with stuff like Duress, etc) but the majority of your time will be spent pondering Ponders and trying to figure out when is the appropriate time to combo off (weighing your hand and known information vs what you know of your opponent's hand, board, deck, and all the math/intuition behind these).

TES doesn't actually have more options than ANT. TES has:

Natural (Protection/Cantrips/Enemy-Low Life Kills)
Ad Nauseam
Ill-Gotten Gains
Diminishing Returns
ETW

ANT has:

Natural
Ad Nauseam
Ill-Gotten Gains
(Doomsday)
(ETW)

The last two depend highly on what build of ANT you play. It seems dutch players are content moving into red for ETW as an answer to CB strategies. The guys on the storm boards (myself included) favor Ad Nauseam and Doomsday paired with a 4-5c manabase.

Very few lists see play without both Ad Nauseam and Ill-Gotten Gains. It's easy to include IGG in any LED list with Infernal Tutor (a common tutor for Ad Nauseam) and it solves issues related to low-life total combo turns. If you don't have Ad Nauseam, it's very easy to build storm with Infernal Tutor into Ill-Gotten Gains (it only costs 2 more mana than winning with Ad Nauseam (with 0 mana floating) anyway).

The variants of ANT packing Sensei's Divining Tops are additionally far more brutal on a player of the course of a tournament than TES. These include lists like jegger's without Doomsday and lists like Pulp_fiction's or mine with Doomsday. All of the cantrips, plus Doomsday, with as many or more tutors, and the added complication of properly abusing fetchlands.

The streamlined ANT lists, such as those favored by mateml, have the same consistency AND average speed of TES. When you compare the lists, you can see why: the differences are that TES plays 3 fewer lands that are rainbow instead of in a fetch/dual config (on average), Cabal Rituals, and fewer Mystical tutors while making that up with an additional Chrome Mox (sometimes), a set of Rite of Flames, and Burning Wishes. Total changes (ignoring the first 11 lands which are a fetch<->rainbow swap):

-3 Land
-4 Cabal Rit
-2 Mystical Tutor

+1 Chrome Mox
+4 Burning Wish
+4 Rite of Flame

The changes from some of the more hybridized lists like NLS are similar replacing some Infernal Tutors and Rite of Flames from TES with Mystical Tutors and Cabal Rituals).

Burning Wish does not significantly increase average goldfish speed compared to Mystical Tutor. This has nothing to do with a "card disadvantage tutor" but instead with the major limiting factors of initial mana sources and ritual effects. Neither TES nor ANT can reliably have enough mana to combo turn 1 without first casting Brainstorm or Ponder (at which point they probably have to pass where their chances increase dramatically). This means the Mystical Tutor being played on the end step or upkeep will still contribute to the turn two win (roughly the average in a goldfish).

I have no idea where you come up with this idea that TES will be faster than a stock ANT list in a goldfish (or against disruption). The decks are extremely close with similar odds in just about all facets of the game. The small percentage of the time that TES might be faster due to the acceleration swap of Rite of Flame for Cabal Ritual won't likely show in any given 1000 goldfish hands.

In fact, the only way to make either deck noticeably faster is to add in Simian Spirit Guides for the IMS boost, which most pilots are not willing to do due to a slightly increased average CMC. Your limiting point in speed here is because the lists have replaced acceleration with cantrips for consistency. Adding Rite of Flames to ANT or Cabal Rituals to TES will have similar effects (although less noticeable with your ability to combo turn 1 and your average CMC) but penalize either your consistency (replacing cantrips/tutors) or your non-goldfish speed (replacing protection).

[Pulp_Fiction]

Very well said. We don't need another thread about TES vs FT! Both decks have their merits. While I don't think TES is any faster than a regular 7-8 ritual ANT list some will argue different. TES is often viewed as more versatile since it has Burning Wish but, I have been playing ANT/DDFT for a very long time and haven't wanted Burning Wish. Out of the ridiculous number of tournament matches I have played combo in I have only had Tendrils Extirpated 1 time.

I don't want to argue which is more skill testing because it all depends on your grasp of combo. Personally I think Doomsday is the most skill testing combo card due to the fact it can be adapted to deal with basically anything, you just have to do the math. BUT I have made some pretty insane plays with TES in a tournament setting as well so both decks really have the ability to rack your brain hard.

Too me this is what it all comes down to, I don't want to play a combo deck without Sensei's Divining Top. It helps so much with consistency and mulligans that its ridiculous. I have mulled to 4 and opened up Top/land, hit nothing with top 3, fetched, and won on turn 4. Top just adds SO much to the deck that everytime I sleeve up TES to take it to a tournament I always end up taking it apart cause I don't want to miss out on having access to Top. I feel it adds a whole nother realm of consistency to combo decks and allows you to do some insanely broken things.

[mercc]

Played a single elimination tourney on MWS for a swedish site.

Not very long, but I have lost all games vs. blue, i don't know if it's me :)
I tried emidln's list from his blog with doomsday, not that I know how to play DD but anyways.

Vs Merfolk.
Game 1. I keep a hand of duress and stuff that will accel me to AdN turn 2.

I duress turn 1 and take daze as the other stuff is just vial and water creatures that don't do anything.
He draws and plays cursecatcher that I didn't see from duress, well, slows me down 1 turn, i draw and go as i need mana. He draws and attacks and says go.
Next turn i draw my mana as I have 1 to spare now when i play AdN, I go for it, he FoWs, must've been his second draw after cursecatcher.... ok, gratz.

Game 2.
We both mull, I start with swarm, he FoWs it, later I set up via top and duress an AdN with 16 life, I win.

Game 3. I mull
He starts with island.
Me swarm, he daze.
He land, go.
Me swarm, he FoW.

Then i draw into 2 mystical tutor and have:
2 mystical, chrome mox, IGG, doomsday, petal on hand and 2 land in play(bayou, volcanic island). I just don't know what to do here...
I have time to mystical 2 end steps and survive but then i have to win and it cant be via AdN

and ofcourse I fuck up, I could set up IGG, but he has FoW in GY so... not good, and I don't have time or mana to find silence and then go. So i die.

Should i DD for something here?

[emidln]

Finding Dark Rit and then Brainstorm lets you build BS/LED/LED/Ponder/Tendrils which wins for BBB (Doomsday) + UU. You could also play Chrome Mox imprinting IGG while finding Dark Rit+BS/Ponder and Doomsday for Rit/Med/Rit/Rit/Tendrils. Either leaves you vulnerable to Daze/Cursecatcher as well as Force of Will/Stifle though. Your best option is to probably Mystical into Brainstorm then try to fix your hand here.

I would also have immediately cast the first Mystical Tutor to find Brainstorm.

I've been testing this list recently:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalded Tarn
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Badlands
1 Underground Sea
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Ponder
4 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
4 Burning Wish
4 Mystical Tutor
2 Infernal Tutor
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Doomsday
1 Meditate
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony

SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Doomsday
SB: 1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Reverent Silence
SB: 1 Pulverize
SB: 1-2 Deathmark
SB: 0-1 Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 4 Xantid Swarm

[merfolkotpt]

Took the following list to my local, had about 35 people this weekend...

4x Dark Ritual
4x LED
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Infernal Tutor
4x Brainstorm
4x Orim's Chant
4x Lotus Petal
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Duress
2x Chrome mox
2x Ponder
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Tendrils
1x IGG
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Krosan Grip

4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
2x Underground Sea
2x tundra
1x Scrubland
1x Tropical Island
1x Island

Sideboard
1x Tropical Island
3x Krosan Grip
2x Silence
2x Angel's Grace
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Disenchant
1x Slaughter Pact
2x Hurkyl's Recall


Please Criticize anything you may disagree with,
tournament was 4 rounds of swiss...

Round 1, Dredge (I knew what he was playing)
Game 1: Im on the play, draw the NUTS... RIT RIT Land AdN = GG
Game 2: hand is (SdT Sea Mystical LED Petal Tundra ) 1st turn land StP, opponents 2nd turn gives me a scare he does alot of dredging but just doesnt quite have it. My 2nd turn drop LED Lotus Mystical for AdN, crack LED and Lotus top for AdN = GG...

Round 2, Goyf Sligh
Game 1 He bolts me 2x I IGG Loop on turn 3 ( he also had a goyf in play)
Game 2 side in the 1 Grace 1 chain of vapor and 2 disenchant... he borded in 4 cards i still have no idea what they were... i played Adn and Grace on turn 4...

Round 3, Painter/CounterTop
this kid drew God hands against me...
Game 1 (Im on the draw) He goes 1st turn Ancient Tomb Painter. I go Sea Ponder. He Goes on Turn 2 Another Ancient Tomb Gindestone!!! = Gmaeover
Game 2 1st turn i play duress snag a counterbalance he didnt have a grindstone or painter in hand... but he did have 2 ancient tomb... he goes ancient tomb painter!!! TOP DECK... i go, not exactly what i played but i didnt go off. he goes Ancient Tomb Grindstong!!! R U SERIOUS KID... TOP DECKS AGAIN...

Round 4, Painter, Control
Game 1 i mull down to 5 cards... not a good start... i didnt get any chants or duress, he counters my mysticals and infernal tutors. he gets a Magus of the moon in play and i cant recover, he eventually kills me with painter combo, this match took like 30 min. i have no idea how...
Game 2 1st turn StP, 2nd turn top deck Adn... I duress take his only counter. Rit Rit AdN = GG
Game 3 kind like the 1st, we ran out of time. I seriously have no idea how a painter deck and a Combo ran out of time... but whatever we were talking and joking around alot...


Overall i enjoyed the deck as i have for a while now... the thing i would like to discuss the most is my sideboard... any sugestions at all i would appreciate.

also StP was a house and i am in the process of depating on taking out the ponder for 2 more top. i saw some previouse discussion in the forum on that but i would like some more opinions on the matter, after doing some playtesting which ill admit hasnt been to extensive i feel like 2/2 is the best. but if someone thinks otherwise, please post your reasoning...

@Pulp Fiction: How do u feel the Doomsday version would have done against the Painter Control Decks? Clearly the my 3rd matchup was rediculous, but i still feel like the amount of control and the speed of his combo might be problematic... I have the Doomsday and have been thinking about trying that version...

I had a couple questions, I know this is a bit old as a list, but still. First, 61 cards main deck? That seems wrong. Also could you just sketch out how you sideboard for a couple of the big matchups? Lastly, how good is the one of Krosan Grip main...is it worth making your mana a little worse in G1 as opposed to siding both tropicals and playing swamp?

[schorchi]

Hi,

I'm working on a list, that includes all the 0-mana artifact creatures. They can block the first damage dealt by opposing creatures so we can draw enough cards with Ad Nauseam. They also give us more stormcount in the winning turn.
The problem is that you mostly need 2 cards to use the synergies, e.g. Culling the Weak or Diabolic Intent, but when you have it, these cards are very strong.
As I tested the list a little bit (10 games so far) and I realized that you need at least one of the 8 Tutors, Ad Nauseam itself, the Cunning Wish or a very good hand an a Brainstorm in your opponing hand to find Ad Nauseam quick enough. Otherwise I took a mulligan, because without any option finding Ad Nauseam you will loose the game, it won't come from the top.
I didn't miss Orim's Chant or Silence, the protection consisting of Cabal Therapy (very strong in most match-ups, you know which card srews you up) and Pact of Negation in combination with the Cunning Wish to fetch different answers, seems to be good enought to me. Staying UB is also a advantage against color-screw and wastelands.

here is the list:

Main:
4 Ornithopter
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Shield Sphere

4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak

4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Diabolic Intent

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pact of Negation
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Cunning Wish
//46

Lands:
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
3 Island
2 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
//14


Side:
4 Dark Confidant (anti-control package)
4 Hypnotic Specter (anti-control package)

1 Ad Nauseam
1 Brain Freeze
1 Pact of Negation
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Wipe Away
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Cabal Ritual
//15

What are your suggestions?

[Pulp_Fiction]

I apologize for the bluntness of this but that list is awful. Playing the tall men has always added a great deal of inconsistencies to the deck and gives you so many dead draws that its insane. I used to play SI and I know how awful they are, and I only ran 8! Where is LED ... IT?? If you built this for budget reasons I totally understand. But currently, if you want to play just regular ANT without Doomsday there is no reason at all to not play this:

4x Dark Ritual
4x LED
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Infernal Tutor
4x Brainstorm
4x Orim's Chant
4x Lotus Petal
4x Cabal Ritual
3x Silence
2x Chrome mox
2x Ponder
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Tendrils
1x IGG
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Krosan Grip

4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
2x Underground Sea
1x tundra
1x Scrubland
1x Bayou
1x Tropical Island
1x Island

Sideboard
2x Xantid Swarm
2x Krosan Grip
2x Slaughter Pact
2x Disenchant
2x Chain of Vapor
1x Ray of Revelation
1x Ad Nauseam
1x IGG
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Plains

The SB is clearly all meta dependent but this is one of the most consistent ANT lists you will see. I don't know why everyone is afraid of LED and IT, I guess I have just been playing combo to long ... but there is not a single reason to NOT run it. Especially now that we have access to 8 chants + Xantid Swarm in the SB! Makes everything that much better. And the IGG loop gives you so many wins as does going all in on IT and fetching AdN. Its really insane, plus Cabal Ritual always adds mana, where as Culling can and will sit in your hand. IT and LED is way to powerful to not play in combo just based off of how many free (guarnteed) wins it gives you.

Now, if this is for budget reasons, meaning no duals, Chants, LEDs I would saw cut the tall men down to 8, just play Walker and Sphere, add in 2x Ponder and 2x Sensei's Divining Top and then go -1 Diabolic Intent and +1 Tendrils of Agony. That should make the list decent but you are still going to have a ridiculous amount of dead draws and hand destruction will just rip a deck like this so shreds. SI and Belcher taught me many lessons on what to not play when it comes to combo! If this deck is not for budget reasons, put the list above together.

Also, lets please ignore the LED vs non-LED debate because it is getting old. If anyone really wants do debate this we should really start seperate threads for the decks.

[jegger]

I don't write here from a while, because I do only a tournament this year in May with my pet deck.

Last sunday I returned to play this deck at a medium event of 135 players and I've finished 2°. I know here nobody plays without DD, but I post anyway the list I've used:

4 delta
4 strand
1 scalding tarn
2 island
1 plains
1 usea
1 scrubland
1 tundra

4 LED
4 petal
2 chrome
1 diamond
4 ritual
4 cabal

4 mystical
3 IT
1 IGG
1 AN
1 ToA
1 wipe away
4 orim
2 silence
2 sensei
4 brainstorm
3 ponder

SIDE

2 volcanic island
4 pyroblast
1 pyroclasm
1 chain of vapor
2 hurkyl
1 wipe away
1 echoing truth
1 rushing river
1 extirpate
1 slaughter pact

Some choices were meta call (15° land, mox diamond and additional orims were for the tempo meta). The average CC is 1,18 so AN is very efficent although with 6 orims more often than normal I combo with IGG.

The pairings I founded:
dredge (with unmask in SB) 2-0
zoo (with 3 canonist, 3 teeg, reb in SB) 2-0
landstill (counters + 4 CB & 4 meddling in SB) 2-0
merfolk (no denial) 2-0
merfolk (denial) 2-1
proBant (counter, CB) 2-1
reanimator - tie
goblin - tie
TOP8
goblin 2-0
proBant (the same of swiss) 2-0
canadian (classic list without Goose + Clique & Lavamancer) 0-2

The deck is nice and it's a good tier2.

[NQN]

How do you SB´ the different bouncespells?

[GreenOne]

Some choices were meta call (15° land, mox diamond and additional orims were for the tempo meta). The average CC is 1,18 so AN is very efficent although with 6 orims more often than normal I combo with IGG.
I'm playing a list with 6 chants and DD, with an average cmc of 1,24, almost the same as yours (you get, on average, one card more for every 20 flipped cards or so).

I'm particularly interested in the Pyroblast plan, that I've not yet tested in such a deck. I guess it's your plan both against counterdecks and CB?

I'm actually playing green for a sb like:
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
*SB: 1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [VI] Helm of Awakening
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 [PS] Rushing River
*SB: 1 [FUT] Pact of Negation
*SB: 1 [OV] Abeyance
SB: 1 [5E] Hurkyl's Recall
*SB: 2 [IA] Disenchant
SB: 1 [B] Bayou
SB: 1 [TE] Plains (3)

I'm not sure about the * slots. Is the Pyroblast plan working well? Do you suggest me trying it in place of the green splash?
What do you side in/out against counterbalace? And what against tempo decks (UGr, Merfolk)?

[Pulp_Fiction]

Apparently everyone is writing tournament reports so I will just give a quick summary of what happened and discuss the blue matches in detail a little later on. Tonight I made it to a top 4 split at my local tournament out of 31 people, went 4-1-1 and played the following:

4x LED
4x Orim's Chant
4x Dark Ritual
4x Brainstorm
4x Top
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Lotus Petal
4x Infernal Tutor
3x Cabal Ritual
2x Chrome Mox
1x Silence
1x Ponder
1x Tendrils
1x Krosan Grip
1x Meditate
1x IGG
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Doomsday

4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
2x Underground Sea
1x Tundra
1x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Tropical Island
1x Island

Sideboard
3x Xantid Swarm
2x Disenchant
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Doomsday
2x Krosan Grip
1x Naturalize
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Plains

This was a semi-experimental list and I did not like it. 4x Infernal Tutor feels like too many and I was really missing the extra Ponder. It really felt like I was playing ANT all night, I didn't win a single game with Doomsday and never really had the capabilities too. The deck was acting funny but still performing at an incredible level, I kept drawing useless 1-ofs all night rather than good cards but everything eventually worked out. Here is a summary of what I played against:

Round 1: Brassman Blue
1-2
I won the first then proceded to lose to triple CB, double Force in the second, and lost the third after a mull to 5 and drawing nothing.

Round 2: Zoo
2-1
Game 1 I just mulled to 5 and drew garbage, good times. Game 2 I fought through turn 2 Null Rod and turn 3 Pillar. And game 3, won through a Pillar after drawing a sick amount of 1-ofs.

Round 3: Enchantress
2-0
I felt bad about this matchup, I timewalk him with Chant and easily IGG Loop out on turn 3. Same thing in the second game except I win with AdN on turn 2.

Round 4: 4C CB Thresh (Loxodon Baileyarch)
2-0
Game 1 was beautiful, turn 2 Silence right into IGG Loop. Game 2 I just drew too many threats and he draws triple Force. After he has exhausted all his resources I have LED, LED, IT, Petal, Ritual .... GG.

Round 5: ID with R/W Goblins

Top 8
Round 6: Recruiter Aluren (ChokeSeemsGood)
Game 1 I keep a semi-iffy hand and proceed to Brainstorm into land, land, Petal, then draw lands and petals to my heart's content and IGG gets Mesmeric Fiended. Game 2 I just ravaged him in the face on turn 2 or 3 with IGG loop.
g3: This was a tough game and it really goes to show how fucking good this deck is. I keep an amazing hand and he Thoughtseizes me and my hand is the following: Rit, CRit, Brainstorm, LED, LED, Chant, Tropical Island. He takes Brainstorm and passes. I draw into a Top and play a single LED because I know he plays Cabal Therapy and am not going to get 2-1ed. I Play Top and pass the turn. He plays Thoughtseize, taking Dark Ritual and a Brainstorm. Upkeep I activate Top and it reveals Chrome Mox, Infernal Tutor, Chain of Vapor. I draw Chrome Mox and leave IT on the top. Play my other LED and Chrome Mox imprinting CRit. Blow up both LEDs for BBBBBB and activate Top to draw IT into the win! I got double Thoughtseized and still won on turn 2 ... just that good.

Overall I did not like this particular configuration but I was REALLY feeling the 3rd Cabal Ritual. I think 6x Protection spells is optimal as is 2x Ponder and 3x Infernal Tutor in the main. This list felt a little too inconsistent and I had to mulligan a lot more than I normally do. This is what I will play in the future and what I would consider a more than optimal list for the DDFT Hybrid:

4x LED
4x Orim's Chant
4x Dark Ritual
4x Brainstorm
4x Top
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Lotus Petal
3x Infernal Tutor
2x Ponder
2x Cabal Ritual
2x Silence
2x Chrome Mox
1x Tendrils
1x Krosan Grip
1x Meditate
1x IGG
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Doomsday

4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
2x Underground Sea
1x Tundra
1x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Tropical Island
1x Island

Sideboard
3x Xantid Swarm
2x Disenchant
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Doomsday
2x Krosan Grip
1x Naturalize
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Plains

Even though the changes may seem minor the second list is a lot more consistent and just as fast! If only I could figure out what to cut so I can put in the 3rd Cabal Ritual! As it is this list is spectacular but I just wish I could figure out how to get that 3rd CRit in! It is driving me nuts! Although I do feel the best option is to just leave it alone as I think it has been tweaked as much as it possibly can be!

[flrn]

I got double Thoughtseized and still won on turn 2 ... just that good.

That´s why i think that Thoughtseize is worse than Duress against ANT. He played 2 Thoughtseize, which means he lost 4 life. Those 4 life are reducing the storm count for the ANT player by 2. Both spells he took from you would have been also Duress targets. And i also think that drawing into the right cards that quickly was quite lucky, but well luck on a consistent basis is skill, eh?

[GreenOne]

Sideboard
3x Xantid Swarm
2x Disenchant
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Doomsday
2x Krosan Grip
1x Naturalize
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Plains

Even though the changes may seem minor the second list is a lot more consistent and just as fast! If only I could figure out what to cut so I can put in the 3rd Cabal Ritual! As it is this list is spectacular but I just wish I could figure out how to get that 3rd CRit in! It is driving me nuts! Although I do feel the best option is to just leave it alone as I think it has been tweaked as much as it possibly can be!
I'm actually playing your exact suggested list with -1 Bayou +1 Tundra.
For the SB, it's a different thing (it's posted up in this page).

How is swarm doing it for you? Seems like a bit redundant with the 6 chants effects already on board, isn't it? When do you side it in, and what do you take out?

[Bahamuth]

4x LED
4x Orim's Chant
4x Dark Ritual
4x Brainstorm
4x Top
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Lotus Petal
3x Infernal Tutor
2x Ponder
2x Cabal Ritual
2x Silence
2x Chrome Mox
1x Tendrils
1x Krosan Grip
1x Meditate
1x IGG
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Doomsday

4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
2x Underground Sea
1x Tundra
1x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Tropical Island
1x Island

Sideboard
3x Xantid Swarm
2x Disenchant
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Doomsday
2x Krosan Grip
1x Naturalize
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Plains

Even though the changes may seem minor the second list is a lot more consistent and just as fast! If only I could figure out what to cut so I can put in the 3rd Cabal Ritual! As it is this list is spectacular but I just wish I could figure out how to get that 3rd CRit in! It is driving me nuts! Although I do feel the best option is to just leave it alone as I think it has been tweaked as much as it possibly can be!

My mainboard is the same as yours, except for -1 Grip +1 Ponder. I don't really miss the 3th Cabal Rit too much really. I'm considering playing it in the sideboard as a way to speed up the deck a little against aggro. C Rit is also pretty strong against control, and you probably could board out any other accel for it there.

Of course, my land base is a little different. I play:

4 Delta
4 Strand
2 Tundra
2 Sea
1 Scrub
1 Island
1 Plains

I hate the scrubland though, and I'm probably cutting it for a 9th fetchland (U/R or U/G, doesn't really matter anyway (It's probably better to cut a delta for another one of those)).

As for your green splash, you have Grip to fight CB. Why do you think this plan is better than splash red for Pyroblast? I haven't gotten around to testing either option properly so far. Also, why do you play Disenchant over Serenity?

[lorddotm]

Also, why do you play Disenchant over Serenity?

Why does he play Disenchant over another K-grip and Cabal?

[Pulp_Fiction]

@flrn: After a mull to 5 twice and quite a few mulligans to 6 throughout the day and losing to hideous draws twice I think a little luck is deserved on occassion, but you also need to know how to play the cards the deck is giving you as it isn't always going to be as easy as double LED + IT.

@GreenOne: I absolutely LOVE the Swarm! Especially when your opponent keeps in terrible cards like Swords just to answer a 2x of or wastes an EE to get rid of it! The redundancy is key, 9 Chant effects! Swarm OWNS the combo mirror and the Merfolk matchup. It is mainly in there for Merfolk because all you have to do is land Swarm and you don't have to worry about anything else since they don't have any kind of real answer to the card which is just great! It also shines in the thresh matchups as well, in particular against Canadian where they waste their burn spells on it rather than you life points, and if they don't have an answer then most likely they will be losing pretty soon!

I side in 2x Swarm against Thresh and Landstill and I bring in 3x in the Merfolk matchup, this is really where he shines, if you don't have a lot of matchups against the fishies I would only run 2. SB varies a little by matchup but this is what I usually do against Merfolk:
-2 Chrome Mox, -1 Ad Nauseam, -1 IT, -1 Petal and then +3 Swarm +2 DD.
I SB the same against non-CB Blue control except keep in the IT and only board in 2x Swarm.
Against CB Thresh I board like this:
-2 Chrome Mox, -1 Ad Nauseam, -1 IT, -2 Petal and +2 KGrip, +2 DD, +2 Swarm.

@Bahamuth: I would never cut a Scrubland because I can't think of a situation where I would want 2 Tundras in play rather than Tundra and Scrubland thus having access to black mana and WW. The reason being is I like having access to U/W/B and being able to pay the kicker cost on Orim's Chant if need be.

Green is a LOT better because you don't have to have the answer in your hand when the CB is played. Using the blast plan you HAVE to have an answer in hand to deal with CB otherwise you will barely ever remove it and will NEVER remove it if Top is in play. KGrip is the best answer for CB IMOP, plus you can tutor for it in response and the kill it later on when you are ready to combo off. It is just nice not having to rely on a blast being in my hand when CB is played and then effectively having no way to remove it if I didn't start the game with a blast, and even then, if you are on the draw your blast can still be Dazed!

@lorddotm and Bahamuth: Disenchant is all meta dependent. I encounter every imagineable hate card in my meta because it is so varied and prefer Disenchant because it has an immediate effect and I can tutor for it. I hate Serenity since I have no way to find it (aside from Top and cantrips) and in the matchups where Serenity is good I have had it Oblivion Ringed and KGripped one to many times. Disenchant will always kill something and I can play it as a suprise instant and have the ability to tutor for it.

I also play Disenchant over additional KGrip because of Ad Nauseam. Against aggro decks I will leave in AdN and don't want to stock the deck full of 3 CC disenchants, so I just cut chants and put in Disenchants and bounce for the hate cards and the lower the casting cost the better! I also play a single Naturalize in case I have to tutor up a protection spell and maybe I only have access to either W or G, just nice to have different options available because you never know what kind of jacked up situations you will have to get yourself out of.

[spankme]

Hey everyone,

This will be quite noobish, so please, temper your anger ;) Thanks in advance!

I've been looking for decent Legacy deck for a while, tried to play Counterbalance-Top decks, but they didnt fit in my taste. Finally I got my very own ANT deck done, from the 2nd place at Bazaar of Moxen III tournament. I've did some goldfishing with it and realized I dont really know how to play that one (I was only able to launch off the combo once, with very obvious cards combination for many, many goldfish tests). I was looking this thread and I saw it lacking good deck introduction, for people that yet dont know how to pilot it.
I'd like to read some information, how to play Doomsday, what the hell is 'IGG loop', how to correctly resolve Lion's Eye Diamond, how to play with blue matchups, how to sideboard, what to mulligan and what to not, and so on. The deck is very complex, that while reading the decklists is fun and enjoyable, it doesent help a lot, especially for people new to ANT like me. Of course, I absolutely understand the amount and variety of things involved in correct play with the ANT and that there is no play-it-like-that-to-win-every-time checklist of golden rules.

Thanks for any clues and patience :)

[Bahamuth]

@GreenOne: I absolutely LOVE the Swarm! Especially when your opponent keeps in terrible cards like Swords just to answer a 2x of or wastes an EE to get rid of it! The redundancy is key, 9 Chant effects! Swarm OWNS the combo mirror and the Merfolk matchup. It is mainly in there for Merfolk because all you have to do is land Swarm and you don't have to worry about anything else since they don't have any kind of real answer to the card which is just great! It also shines in the thresh matchups as well, in particular against Canadian where they waste their burn spells on it rather than you life points, and if they don't have an answer then most likely they will be losing pretty soon!

I side in 2x Swarm against Thresh and Landstill and I bring in 3x in the Merfolk matchup, this is really where he shines, if you don't have a lot of matchups against the fishies I would only run 2. SB varies a little by matchup but this is what I usually do against Merfolk:
-2 Chrome Mox, -1 Ad Nauseam, -1 IT, -1 Petal and then +3 Swarm +2 DD.
I SB the same against non-CB Blue control except keep in the IT and only board in 2x Swarm.
Against CB Thresh I board like this:
-2 Chrome Mox, -1 Ad Nauseam, -1 IT, -2 Petal and +2 KGrip, +2 DD, +2 Swarm.

You make Xantid Swarm sounds a little better than it is in my opinion. You seem to state it's a good thing opponents will burn/StP Swarms, but that's not really always the case. If a Tempo Thresh player burns off a Swarm, he essentially just countered your protection with a spell that wouldn't have mattered if Swarm would've been a Chant.

Thank you for posting your sideboard plans. Why exactly do you consider it to be good to board out Ad Nauseam? Why is a more Doomsday-oriented plan better in these matchups?


@Bahamuth: I would never cut a Scrubland because I can't think of a situation where I would want 2 Tundras in play rather than Tundra and Scrubland thus having access to black mana and WW. The reason being is I like having access to U/W/B and being able to pay the kicker cost on Orim's Chant if need be.

I think you know too that kicked Chant almost never happens. I don't really think that should be an argument here. I don't see much other reason to have WW in play. Situations where you hold 2 Chant and you absolutely need to cast them both on the same turn (and where you don't have a Petal and Tundra + Sea) are also very unlikely, because you're generally very Daze-vulnerable when you cast the second. I don't see enough reason to need more than 1 white source on the board.
Scrubland gave me lots of mulligans in the past. You can't keep hands with Scrub as only land and some blue cantrips/Mystical Tutor. I think it's better off as a 9th fetchland.


Green is a LOT better because you don't have to have the answer in your hand when the CB is played. Using the blast plan you HAVE to have an answer in hand to deal with CB otherwise you will barely ever remove it and will NEVER remove it if Top is in play. KGrip is the best answer for CB IMOP, plus you can tutor for it in response and the kill it later on when you are ready to combo off. It is just nice not having to rely on a blast being in my hand when CB is played and then effectively having no way to remove it if I didn't start the game with a blast, and even then, if you are on the draw your blast can still be Dazed!

Okay, you summed up a whole lot of reasons to run Grip. I can give you some advantages of Blast too. It's much better when you still run AdN for example, but you seem to board it out, so I guess that's not really relevant to you. Also, Blast doubles as protection when you also have a Chant, which is pretty likely. It's not that unlikely that you can resolve a Blast through CB. CB doesn't have CB + Top that often early in the game anyway.

With the board plan you posted, what are your results vs. CB? How would you estimate your win%? Be realistic please.

[Bahamuth]

Hey everyone,

This will be quite noobish, so please, temper your anger ;) Thanks in advance!

I've been looking for decent Legacy deck for a while, tried to play Counterbalance-Top decks, but they didnt fit in my taste. Finally I got my very own ANT deck done, from the 2nd place at Bazaar of Moxen III tournament. I've did some goldfishing with it and realized I dont really know how to play that one (I was only able to launch off the combo once, with very obvious cards combination for many, many goldfish tests). I was looking this thread and I saw it lacking good deck introduction, for people that yet dont know how to pilot it.
I'd like to read some information, how to play Doomsday, what the hell is 'IGG loop', how to correctly resolve Lion's Eye Diamond, how to play with blue matchups, how to sideboard, what to mulligan and what to not, and so on. The deck is very complex, that while reading the decklists is fun and enjoyable, it doesent help a lot, especially for people new to ANT like me. Of course, I absolutely understand the amount and variety of things involved in correct play with the ANT and that there is no play-it-like-that-to-win-every-time checklist of golden rules.

Thanks for any clues and patience :)

I'll give you some general tips on how this deck works.

Basically, this deck always wins by first making mana, then playing some kind of tutor to find one of your win conditions, and then using it to produce a lethal Tendrills. I'll go over the options here (The B's represent the mana in your mana pool):

1) Ad Nauseam. This is the easiest option you have. If you're a starting combo player, I suggest you start off with a list that only has AdN and IGG.
Basically, you resolve Ad Nauseam, draw a shitload of cards, play all Petals, Moxes, LEDs, Rituals you found, Tutor up your Tendrills with Infernal Tutor or Mystical Tutor + cantrip, and play it.

One way to go would for example be:
Tap land for Dark Ritual (BBB), Sac Petal for B (BBBB), cast LED, cast Infernal Tutor (BB) saccing LED in response for BBB (BBBBB). You now search for AdN and win from there.

Or you could go:
End of Turn, Mystical Tutor for Ad Nauseam. Draw it in your own turn. Cast Dark Ritual twice (BBBBB) and cast Ad Nauseam, winning from there.

Infernal Tutor and LED make a strong combination in this deck. The idea is that you make some mana by playing some Rituals, then play a LED, and then play Infernal Tutor, saccing LED in response. This results in your hand being empty with 3 more mana available, and a Hellbended Infernal Tutor. This way, LED makes your Infernal Tutor into a Demonic Tutor, and it gives you 3 more mana to play with.

2) IGG: Ill-gotten Gains is another engine you can use to win the game. It's safer than Ad Nauseam, because you don't have the risk of killing yourself in the process, but it loses to graveyard hate and to your opponent having a counter in his graveyard. Here's an example of an IGG-loop:

Tap land, cast Dark Ritual (BBB). Cast threshed Cabal Ritual (BBBBBB) cast LED, cast Petal, cast Infernal Tutor, saccing LED in response (BBBBBBB). You grab Ill-gotten Gains, and cast it (BBB). You return Dark Ritual, LED, Infernal Tutor. Play Dark Ritual (BBBBB), play LED, cast Infernal Tutor saccing LED in response (BBBBBB) and grab Tendrills for 20 damage.
Notice I played a Petal at the start to make storm. Instead, you could've searched for a new Infernal Tutor at the end with the Tutor you returned with IGG. With the new Tutor, you still have enough mana to search for a Tendrills, but you've increased your storm by one.

Also notice that, if you haven't resolved a Chant first, your opponent can get back the counters he already used with your IGG, and use them to counter your Infernal Tutor. Therefore, IGG should only be used against blue decks when you either resolved a Chant, or the opponent has no counters in his graveyard.

3) Doomsday. Doomsday is the hardest engine of the 3. It requires you to build a pile of 5 cards that win you the game. As you might've noticed, Doomsday has no internal option of actually getting to these cards. For that reason, you need another card (Top, Brainstorm or Ponder (or perhaps Infernal Tutor)) to reach the cards. Let's say you have a Top in play.

Cast Dark Ritual(BBB), cast Lotus Petal, cast LED. Now cast Doomsday, making your deck into:
Meditate
Petal
LED
LED
Tendrills.

Now, we had a Top in play, so we tap the Top, and sac LED in respose for blue. We draw Meditate and cast it. You will draw into Top (you put it on top of your library) Petal LED LED. Now cast Petal, sac it for mana and use that to cast your Top, cast LED LED. Now tap Top, saccing both LEDs in response and draw your Tendrills, which you can cast with the mana from LED.

There are tons of different piles to use for Doomsday. Some only work if you have some more cards in your hand, of only if you have a Brainstorm or specific amounts of mana left in your pool. Here is a link to Cheeseburger's and emidln's page with Doomsday piles: http://docs.google.com/View?id=d3hxs7m_16cr3v59c9


I hope this helps. There's much more to be said about how to play this deck, but I feel I've typed enough for a while.

[Pulp_Fiction]

@Bahamuth: I love the Swarm, always have and unless they print a better creature that chants without ever even hitting the opponent I will keep playing it. Here is what is so great about Swarm, sometimes I won't even board him in, instead I will put in EtW or something like that and because my opponents at the card shop I play at know I only play combo they expect Xantid and may keep in 4 Swords. That is just 4 more dead draws they have in their deck. And when playing just 2x Swarm, they are running 3-4 answers for it and I will take those odds anyday.

I totally understand not liking the Swarm, it is all preference. I used to hate the card as well, but oftentimes the threat of Xantid is enough for your opponent to unnecessarily play cards to answer it. Xantid also draws out Force of Will like a boss! Plus I have additional protection spells in the deck! I can see where you are coming from though, I hate Serenity with a passion but others will swear by it, perhaps you had bad experiences/luck with the card in the past.

I board out Ad Nauseam because it is garbage in the blue matchup IMOP. Especially because I have to board out Chrome Mox. I used to take out Ponders and go down to 1x Cabal Ritual but I feel this is a terrible mistake. Doomsday allows me to take my time and setup and Ad Nauseam forces me to have high life points where as you only need 2 for Doomsday! The card is just great against blue and the 4x blast 4x chant DDFT builds fuck CB thresh up hard, but they suffer from serious speed issues in the aggro matchups. DD is just a lot better because it allows you to sculpt your hand and preiodically test defenses while your life is being whitted away by Goyf and Ad Nauseam just becomes useless after turns 4-6.

I play kicked chant maybe 1/7-10 aggro matchups I encounter and I do think it is relevant, especially if you have the AdN setup for next turn. In general it is not a common play, I will agree there, but the kicker is relevant. Either way, play whatever manabase you feel comfortable with, there is no correct manabase with the lists, because we will all argue whatever works for us is better; but if you almost never lose games due to mana issues and feel confident playing against wasteland and the occassional Moon effect then thats the right manabase!

I never much kept track of my matchups after I write a tournament report, but in general I am roughly 50-50 lifetime VS CB with combo. With DDFT (the Hybrid list posted above morphs into this after SB) I am about 55/60% against them. It is only CB though that gives these lists a hard time, I don't think I have ever lost a matchup to Landstill with the Hybrid list or DDFT, or TES for that matter.

I can't ever get behind the blast plan, and if they don't have Top then they will BS in response and put a 1 drop on top or Force your blast and proceed to lock you out of the game. Very rarely will a 1 CC spell remove CB. Krosan Grip is the best answer. Now, if you want to play blast, chant, and grips ... even better! I found it to be complete overkill and top activations reveal a little more useless spells than it should but the matchup is damn good! The blast plan just puts more of an emphasis on speed (much like AdN) and opening hand. Grip is all about setup and timing and doesn't have to be in the opening hand to remove CB which is crucial IMOP when deciding which is better at dealing with that fucking enchantment! They both have their merits but if I had to choose one over the other I will take Grip everytime.

@spankme: Stay as far away from Doomsday as you can. Play regluar ANT lists with IT, LED, and IGG. Probably the best way to learn storm combo. If you have questions about how to play a hand or think you can win but don't know how post a scenario and we will help you out. Best way to learn though is goldfishing over and over and over again.

[Horror Business]

Had a rough time in my CB match this weekend. I've never beaten it in tournament play with storm combo. I can get 1 game and that seems about it. I just need to play it a lot more that's for sure. I haven't really had trouble against Fae or Canadian.

Game 1 he didn't drop Balance so I just Chanted into the Igg loop.
Game 2 I Slaughter Pact away a Teeg but he and Goyf had beaten me down to low life so I had to Ad Naus at about 11 through a CB at 1. Didn't get there.
Game 3 I Grip two CBs but a Crypt and a Goyf beating me down forced me to Ad Naus at even lower life(lol) which of course didn't work out.

Doomsday would have helped me out tremendously in that round.
I also think I kept subpar hands esp Game 3 but I opened up a Grip and 3 lands so I kept. Thought I could sculpt my hand until I Grip and win the following turn. Not so much.

I had a good lol moment when I Duress my WW opponent in game 2 and he's holding Mindbreak Trap. Anyone run into that guy yet?

[NQN]

Yep, I faced Ugw Balance Thresh that weekend.
I won game 1 through Balance/Top because of "hardcast"(without rituals) AN EoT.
But he brought in 4 Spell Pierce and 2 Minbreak Traps in Addition to Snare,Clique,FoW already beeing Maindeck. He really was afraid of combo o0
Long story short: Chant->FoW->Pyroblast->V.Clique->(he was down to 2 cards)->D.Ritual->D.Ritual->MindbreakTrap :(
I would´ve won that game later on but I exiled both rituals and not only one so I failed during Igg Loop some turns later. But I still got a 1-1-1 out of it :D

How do you guys feel about Bant Aggro? It´s pretty common over here and I don´t feel very comfortable playing against it.
They have the same Manadenial as TT but 3 additional V.Cliques plus Gaddocks out of the SB. Against TT, you can usually relax and sculpt your hand until it´s gg, but Bant applies much more pressure. :/
I won that match but only because I bluffed a FTK in game 3 :D
I finished 4-1-1 loosing a match to Landstill packing Balance MD +4 Mages +3 Extirpates +Chant for g2/g3 because he blindly revealed cc1 two times in a row, one of them beeing Top :(

[Pulp_Fiction]

@NQN: What does your meta generally look like? If it is usually a lot of blue (more than 60% of your matchups) then I would advise a different combo deck. Just describe what kinds of decks you usually play against and there are quite a few combo lists you can look into as long as you are comfortable playing Doomsday. But there are numerous different builds for DDFT and it greatly depends on your meta, also, post a list for reference and how the deck usually performs in your meta.

[NQN]

Well, first of all I have to say that I haven´t played Combo since ~1,5 years.
I played TES back then when it was cool (read: AN wasn´t printed) and then stopped it for blue control.
I´m currently trying out different approaches to find one that I feel comfortable with. I started with a Next Level Storm build and went 4-2 loosing twice to ANT.
Then I picked up ANT myself and played against 3 blue decks and 3 nonblue decks which is kinda fair imho.
What I can say for sure is that I rarely face Counterbalance (In 1,5 years with Landstill maybe 10 times...) so I think a faster list would be better. Im not sure what´s wrong with me but when I play a list with DD I always fizzle with Ad Nauseam since I never reveal any rituals but lots of buisness :/
I really liked the Uwb +r list since it was fast but still had lots of ways to fight through hate. Actually, I´d like to first play without Doomsday until I got enough practice to play decks I assume to be slower.

Another question that bothers me: What do you think about Duress? In testing, I found it terrible. If I played it early, it didn´t really mattered since they always could refill their hand within 1-2 turns. If I tried to protect Chant with it while going off the same turn, I often got pwned by Brainstorm+Top. It´s also bad against Tempo Decks since they usually have only 1 force but plenty of other disruption (Spell Snare,Stifle)...
I tend to play 6 Chants instead of Duress, you?

Last Question: How important are basiclands? While we have only a few balance players, we have lots of merrows and other decks packing wasteland so I feel like I want at least 2 basics. Is that a wrong way to look at it(remember, I´ve only played LS for a long time^^)

Thanks in advance :)

[emidln]

Im not sure what´s wrong with me but when I play a list with DD I always fizzle with Ad Nauseam since I never reveal any rituals but lots of buisness

I can think of once since the beginning of the summer that I've fizzled with Ad Nauseam at a decent life total (above 12). It's possible to fizzle, but the DD lists providing SDT and Mystical Tutor make it even easier to win post-AdN than those without Doomsday. In NLS or the UBw hybrids, you're down 1-2 Cabal Rituals, and maybe 1 Chrome Mox (both decks run 4 Rit, 2-3 CRit, 4 Petal, 2 CMox, 4 LED) from ANT's 3-4 Cabal Rit and 2-3 Chrome Mox. Cabal Ritual is significantly worse in straight AdN builds unless you hit Cabal Ritual because the card forces you to have either extra Petals/Moxen or to also have Dark Ritual to not cost a ton of initial mana sources. In the DD builds, there is a very real chance that you can win with something like a singleton Cabal Ritual, a SDT + any other cantrip, and a Doomsday if you draw it (Petal/LED, Tendrils, chaff is the pile, or you can turn it into a normal Brainstorm pile replacing chaff in hand for LEDs or something if you drew one of those). The compromises that Doomsday builds make is on protection/cantrips, not acceleration. The average CMC is even similar:

The UBwg Hybrid that everyone on Storm Boards plays (Pulp_Fiction's maindeck posted recently) has a total CMC of 56 in a 60 card deck. If you don't count the 1-of Ad Nauseam, which is impossible to hit off Ad Nauseam, the total CMc is 51 in a 59 card deck. TES isn't that low (58 total CMC, 53 without AdN).

Now look at a standard Ad Nauseam list. I'll take jegger's because it's handy (and because taking a 2-3 AdN list is too easy to prove my point). He has a total CMC of 53 in a 60 card deck. Discount his 1-of Ad Nauseam and you're looking at 48 total CMC in a 59 card deck. This is 3 less than my hybrid and 5 less than TES (which nobody complains has an issue winning off Ad Nauseam, despite playing a similar number of 2s, 3s and 4s as ANT-DD).



Another question that bothers me: What do you think about Duress? In testing, I found it terrible. If I played it early, it didn´t really mattered since they always could refill their hand within 1-2 turns. If I tried to protect Chant with it while going off the same turn, I often got pwned by Brainstorm+Top. It´s also bad against Tempo Decks since they usually have only 1 force but plenty of other disruption (Spell Snare,Stifle)...
I tend to play 6 Chants instead of Duress, you?

NLS has roughly the same clock as normal ANT and doesn't have much issue with only running 5-6 Duress effects as protection. It requires tighter play in some matches than if you had Chants, and sometimes it forces you to play with Doomsday/Ad Nauseam instead of IGG to sidestep hate, but there isn't a ton of difference in results overall (some matchups, like Tempo Thresh, are a lot easier with Chant effects whereas matchups like Dreadstill put a premium on hand information since their deck is so inconsistent despite both being tempo decks). The strength of Duress/TS is hand information combined with the ability to kick your opponent while they're down (taking a Duress early to guarantee a maximum number of counters for example). Duress also requires more discipline in timing when you want to cast it because, as you mentioned, a Duress that isn't followed by a combo attempt is probably a wasted Duress. Duress gains strength when you play with Burning Wish by better enabling/protecting ETW.


Last Question: How important are basiclands? While we have only a few balance players, we have lots of merrows and other decks packing wasteland so I feel like I want at least 2 basics. Is that a wrong way to look at it(remember, I´ve only played LS for a long time^^)

If you're running 6 chant, the only basics worth playing are Island/Plains/Mountain (if you side a lot of REBs). In the 4c/green lists I tend to play only basic Island maindeck with basic plains in the sb, but in 3c lists I'll play Island and Plains maindeck if I'm playing at least 15 lands. In 4c/red, I traditionally play a lot of Doomsdays (3ish) without Ad Nauseam maindeck (only a couple Infernal Tutor) and those lists tend toward 2 Island, 1 Plains maindeck with 6 chants and sb 6-8 REBs with a Volc and a Mountain (4 Strand, 4 Tarn, 0-1 other blue fetch).

NLS tends to run 0-1 Island and nothing else. I don't personally like Island (I opt for all Fetches/Duals) in such an aggressive deck, but some play with it replacing the 7th dual or 8th fetch. NLS plays 4 Delta/4 Tarn almost exclusively due to needing lots of URB with Green or White being light splash colors.

[Bryant Cook]

The UBwg Hybrid that everyone on Storm Boards plays (Pulp_Fiction's maindeck posted recently) has a total CMC of 56 in a 60 card deck. If you don't count the 1-of Ad Nauseam, which is impossible to hit off Ad Nauseam, the total CMc is 51 in a 59 card deck. TES isn't that low (58 total CMC, 53 without AdN).

Now look at a standard Ad Nauseam list. I'll take jegger's because it's handy (and because taking a 2-3 AdN list is too easy to prove my point). He has a total CMC of 53 in a 60 card deck. Discount his 1-of Ad Nauseam and you're looking at 48 total CMC in a 59 card deck. This is 3 less than my hybrid and 5 less than TES (which nobody complains has an issue winning off Ad Nauseam, despite playing a similar number of 2s, 3s and 4s as ANT-DD).


Well, this is a statement. I could honestly care less about the argument.

TES plays more artifact mana while keeping the same amount of mana sources allowing it to win easier. Where there's additional Chrome Moxen instead of lands 12-15. Another thought is 6 of that 53 (I'm taking your word for it) is Simian Spirit Guide, an initial mana source.

Just some food for thought.

[deviant]

a pretty long post

About fizzling off of nauseam: Straight ANT decks sometimes run mox diamond to make nauseam better, and then they run the 3rd chrome too pretty often, TES has what, 4 c.mox, 4 petals and now (again) ssg's for initial mana sources. This is what makes it easy to fizzle when you play an aggressive early nauseam with a deck like NLS: you have usually used two or three of your initial mana sources (2 mox, 4 petal and lands) to get the nauseam off fast (turns 1 or 2), you have made your land drop: your deck now has like, 4-ish initial mana sources left. I usually start my nauseam flips with the IGG and meditate, followed up with multiples of burning wishes, so yeah - if you play incarefully you can fizzle.

Basically this means that when you think of going for an early nauseam, you have to make sure you float some mana (one black mana should suffice) or that you have an acceptable number of initial mana sources left in the deck.

EDIT: while i was writing, what bryant pointed out about initial mana sources is what I was trying to say. NLS and DDFT are no ad nauseam decks, and you shouldn't play them like they were, it's just another win-con among others. TES is my presonal favorite of "nauseam decks", as it's fun to play, versatile and exploits nauseam really well.

[lorddotm]

Well, this is a statement. I could honestly care less about the argument.

TES plays more artifact mana while keeping the same amount of mana sources allowing it to win easier. Where there's additional Chrome Moxen instead of lands 12-15. Another thought is 6 of that 53 (I'm taking your word for it) is Simian Spirit Guide, an initial mana source.

Just some food for thought.

Bryant, I'm going to kiss your ass for a second, TES is probably the best built "aggro" combo deck in legacy. It is extremely fast, versatile, and resiliant. Where as NLS gets pretty much destroyed by a blue based aggro/control.

In my opinion, the only two viable storm decks are TES and the ANT/DD hybrid that pulp_fiction shared. One is extremely fast and deadly, while the other is resiliant and versatile.

Back to the discussion.

The Ad Nauseum thing doesn't work as well with NLS or ANT since it has fewer IMS after casting Ad Nauseum, which causes more fizzling

[emidln]

About fizzling off of nauseam: Straight ANT decks sometimes run mox diamond to make nauseam better, and then they run the 3rd chrome too pretty often, TES has what, 4 c.mox, 4 petals and now (again) ssg's for initial mana sources.

Deckcheck says 3.03 Chrome Mox and less than 1 Mox Diamond in the average ANT list. ANT lists with Mox Diamond are also likely to not play Infernal Tutor or LED at all. This means they absolutely must hit 3 Initial Mana Sources (abbreviated IMS unless I forget; thanks quicksilver) or Tendrils to win the game. Their total CMC (in a list with 3 Ad Nauseam, 4 Chrome, 2ish Mox Diamond) is generally between 56 and 62 putting them directly in line with an IT/LED list or the hybrid lists. Their flips are slightly swingier (as multiple copies of Ad Nauseam are wont to do), but they also play additional copies of Tendrils to make up for this.


you have usually used two or three of your initial mana sources (2 mox, 4 petal and lands) to get the nauseam off fast (turns 1 or 2), you have made your land drop: your deck now has like, 4-ish initial mana sources left.

I find I tend to use 1-2 IMS on turn 1 and slightly fewer (0-1) on turn 2 (I use LED mana more often than Petal/CMox on turn2). I rarely go for a turn 1 kill because it's difficult to do so protected, and turn 2 kills with DD lists have the added benefit of abusing SDT to let LED pay for Ad Nauseam (which happens a lot).

TES and ANT need more initial mana sources because wining the game costs more colored mana for them. This is fine for TES, which simply plays more IMSs combined with a secondary ritual that costs less (Rite vs Cabal Rit) but ANT has some slack to make up. Hybrids are far better at using LED mana and Mystical Tutor after Ad Nauseam than either ANT or TES. When winning the game costs less colored mana, you don't need as much colored mana to start off with.

When you're trying to win the game while resolving Ad Nauseam, you need to dig into these:

With ANT:

1 IMS + Rits + Tendrils (1 IMS + 3 Mana)
1 IMS + Rits + LED + IT (1 IMS + 5 mana)
1 IMS + Rits + IGG + IT (IGG gives you hellbent) (1 IMS + 5 Mana (ability to make 6 from 2 cards))
1 IMS + Rits + LED + IGG + Mystical + BS/Ponder (1 IMS + 4 Mana + LED)
2 IMS + LEDs + IT (2 IMS + 1 Mana + LED)
2 IMS + LEDs + BS/Ponder + Mystical
3 IMS + Rit + Rits/LED + BS/Ponder + Mystical (3 IMS + 4 Mana)

With TES:

Everything that ANT can do
1 IMS + Rites/LEDs + Wish (1 IMS + 2 Mana + LED)
2 IMS + Rites/LEDs + Rits + Wish (2 IMS + 1-2 Mana + Rit/LED)
2 IMS + LEDs + Wish
3 IMS + Rites + Wish (3 IMS + 3 Mana, 2 IMS must be B)

With Hybrid:

Everything that ANT can do
1 IMS + Rit + Rits/LEDs + Doomsday + SDT
2 IMS + Rit + Doomsday + Brainstorm
2 IMS + Rits + Doomsday + SDT
2 IMS + Rit + Rits/LED + Mystical + SDT
1 IMS + Mystical + LEDs (with an SDT in play pre-AdN)


This is of course assuming no mana floating. In terms of winning off a resolved Ad Nauseam with no mana floating, the UBw Hybrid should be behind TES (4 extra IMS + the secondary ritual also costs 1; @bryant: total CMC determines how many cards you can draw, it has nothing to do with IMS. higher IMS count determines how many cards you need to draw to win, on average; I might work on a chart showing this relationship) but in front of ANT.


I usually start my nauseam flips with the IGG and meditate, followed up with multiples of burning wishes, so yeah - if you play incarefully you can fizzle.

If you're complaining about flipping 1-ofs all the time, perhaps you need to play more games. Over the course of a few hundred (or maybe just a quick refresher through stats) you're likely to find that starting off with 11 in the first 4 flips is extremely unlikely.


Basically this means that when you think of going for an early nauseam, you have to make sure you float some mana (one black mana should suffice) or that you have an acceptable number of initial mana sources left in the deck.

You should be doing this anyway. ANT is worse at winning with no mana floating (Rhe average on deckcheck for ANT decks is 3.03 Chrome Mox and <1 Mox Diamond btw; interestingly enough, the total CMC of the composite deck is a little over 66) than the hybrids (as illustrated above) with the critical bottlenecks being IMS and bombs. The hybrid trades, on average 1 IMS for 1 bomb (Doomsday) and extra ways to ease the bottleneck by better exploiting LED.


Where as NLS gets pretty much destroyed by a blue based aggro/control.

I have rating points, tournament reports, and can point to several top8s that strongly disagree with you. Maybe you get destroyed with NLS while playing against blue, but that just means you're, so far, worse than the rest of us.

edit: I added the generalized mana needed in parens for the post-Ad Nauseam requirements. These might be useful for someone just learning Ad Nauseam who needs to recognize where to stop/how to win.

[quicksilver]

You know how long it took me to figure out what the hell you wer talking about with IMS? I just could not think of what card had the initials IMS. Then finally I realized you meant Initial Mana Source. Does anyone else hate it when people use extremely obscure acronyms? Just wastes far more time than it saves by not typing out the whole word. I mean you can just copy and paste if you are really using it that much, or at least specify somewhere what this acronym stands for, instead of just using it out of the blue.

Reminds me how in angel stompy people would always talk about "mom" and you could never figure out if they were talking about mask of memory or the nickname for mother of runes.

[spankme]

@Bahamuth: Thank you very much for your answer - it helped me a lot in understanding how the deck works. After few days of goldfishing I am now able to launch off the combo more consistently and often.

My next questions are about decklist, sideboard and playing around blue decks. I have collected this decklist: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=25934 with some number of cards from other lists for possible modifications.

The meta from last tournament was like that:

5x Merfolk (with white: 1)
3x Mono R burn/aggro (with goyfs: 1)
3x MBC (with rack: 1)
2x White Weenie
2x Bw Pox
2x UGr ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh
2x Counter-Top (1 with Natural Order + Progenitus)
ANT
Goblins
Bant (Supreme Blue)
Slivers
BGW Pox
Zoo
Affinity
Elves combo
UGW Dreadstill
Ideal Combo
Mono G (aggro)
Mono U (aggro-control)
Bw Aggro
Esper (aggro-control)

Is the list I've chosen proper for such meta? Should I change anything? What about its sideboard?

I also have big issues with playing with blue decks, since my meta is heavily blue - what can I do to have a chance in these matchups? Should I mulligan until I can have some sort of protection in hand? What are sideboarding techniques, what to take out and what to put in?

Thanks a lot for any advice!

P.S. I also dislike using acronyms like IMS, since they make reading really difficult for newcomers.

[lorddotm]

I have rating points, tournament reports, and can point to several top8s that strongly disagree with you. Maybe you get destroyed with NLS while playing against blue, but that just means you're, so far, worse than the rest of us.

Okay, in relation to the other lists, which have chants, blue is harder for NLS. Destroyed is too strong of a word, but it is a much more difficult matchup than it has to be.

NLS isn't a popular deck because it's decent at everything, where TES is a faster more robust deck and UBwg Hybrid is a stronger jack of all trades. It just seems subpar to the options. You're a strong player, no one is doubting that, but your deck isn't as strong as the other options.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Well Ad Nauseam is random in nature and there is no list that is going to win every single time you cast it, that is how the cards works. If you do not feel comfortable taking the occassional loss I would advise another deck. So, all of these decks have the optimal spell count (taking CC into consideration) to win off of a resolved AdN, emidln was taking about this is great detail. It is all about maximizing your mathematical chances of winning the game and thus, the more cards you reveal off AdN the greater chance you have of winning.

I think a lot of people are just casting Ad Nauseam as soon as they can and expecting to win. AdN is similar to Doomsday in that you have to set it up. Sure, turn 1 land, rit, rit AdN is going to win games. But there is nothing wrong with waiting another turn (unless you are forced to while on the play against Stax or DStompy) so you can have that extra mana drop. TES is clearly better at winning turn 1 with AdN due to the VERY high IMS count of 4 Petal, 4 CMox and SSGs but it also has a lot of cards with higher CC in it.

A big part of playing this deck is understanding how to play a combo deck. What I mean by this is truly understanding combo decks before AdN. I would highly advise anyone who is new to combo to go into the DDFT thread and build the old Street Wraith Fetchland Tendrils list from the OP and see if you can consistently get that to work. Knowing every single loop hole and trick about your deck is very important. Top adds a whole different level of difficulty to the deck and once you begin to understand how to consistently abuse these cards you will start to see additional (and much simpler) ways to win.

"Ad Nauseam is easy to play, cast it, draw deck, win". It goes a lot deeper than that and I think a lot of people just expect that his is how the deck works and it is no where near. If you truly understand how to play a combo deck those "bad Ad Nauseams" usually aren't that bad at all, and once you understand how really play combo you will be able to take advantage of this. Now if anyone has questions on how to play the deck, set up a situation, write you hand and just post in the thread about how to play it. Everyone in here will be glad to offer advice and tips on how to handle a particular situation. I think combo is the most skill testing of all archetypes in magic and there are very few set in stone play, most situations have numerous factors that come into play and had you considered them beforehand you probably would have won. Just put a list together, goldfish the hell out of it, and take it to tournaments to get experience.

@lorddotm: I totally disagree with what you said about TES but I get what you mean. A big part of success with combo is being confident in your abilites to properly play the deck. If you feel a lot more comfortable with TES against CB Thresh (any troublesome matchup) then keep playing it. Based on my experience, straight up DDFT ravages the fuck out of blue-based decks but suffers in the speed department. I think the best equipped combo list for aggro-based decks is either regular ANT, ANT Hybrid, or NLS but I personally don't like TES very much and don't play it nearly as much as I used to. I feel like all the above decks are more consistent than TES but thats because I feel very comfortable playing combo decks with Top in them and don't want to play one that lacks it and relies on 4x Ponder 4x Brainstorm for consistency. But that is me, you may feel infinitely more confident with TES which is fine. It all comes down to preference.

[NQN]

Well, tried the same list in a 12-player tournament but with 4 Confidants in the SB. I went 3-1 loosing to Ur Dreadstill which I would consider a pretty bad matchup. During g1 he played Balance on turn 2. I tried a top the following turn and he blindy flipped...top <.< Well, my draw was very good and so I managed to wipe away the balance and cast 2 chants during my turn, but he had 2 Forces. I went for AN at 13 life and flipped: Tendrils, IGG,IT,IT,Land,C.Rit->K.O.
Well, I boarded: +4 Confidant +3 Pyroblast +1 Rushing River
-1 AN -2 C.Mox -2 Ponder -1 C.Rit -2 I cant remember, what would´ve been correct?

I´d consider correct sideboarding one of the hardest things with ANT. Maybe someone could figure out what he does against the 2-3 hardest Matchups?(TT,BalanceTop, Dreadstill for example?)

So, tomorrow there´s a 40+ tournament coming up and I expect a few Balances, many merrows and some Byes(aka random aggro).
Which build would you go for?

EDIT: I took 11 mulligans in 4 rounds, starting ONE game with 7 cards because I always had one of the three Wincons(sometimes more) and zero Initial manasources :/ Hell, I´ve almost lost to RG Beatz because I started two games at five, one at six cards -.-.

2ndEdit: What do you think about the 1-off SB Cards like: Extirpate, Hurkylls Recall, Pyroclasm, Angels Grace? I´ve never casted one of those but I kinda like the artworks :D

[lorddotm]

4x LED
4x Orim's Chant
4x Dark Ritual
4x Brainstorm
4x Top
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Lotus Petal
3x Infernal Tutor
2x Ponder
2x Cabal Ritual
2x Silence
2x Chrome Mox
1x Tendrils
1x Krosan Grip
1x Meditate
1x IGG
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Doomsday

4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
2x Underground Sea
1x Tundra
1x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Tropical Island
1x Island

Sideboard
3x Xantid Swarm
2x Disenchant
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Doomsday
2x Krosan Grip
1x Naturalize
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Plains

This is a good place to start. Personally don't like that sideboard, but pulp_fiction is a good player.

[NQN]

Looks kinda nice, but that doesn´t help me much without SB plans since I dont
know when to board additional Doomsdays(i´d suppose for aggro) and when to board EtW etc. :/

[Pulp_Fiction]

@lorddotm: Thanks man :) The board is optimized for my meta, I encounter Null Rod, Pyrostatic Pillar, Cannonist, and Teeg most often so that is why it looks as it does.

@NQN: Dark Confidant is just terrible out of the board. You can run him if you really want to but there are a lot better cards to be played. He is to slow and usually he is killed on the spot. A big part of why Swarm is run (as a 2-of against Thresh) is the threat, he resolves, you opponent can't interfere with combo turn, they lose. They don't have to answer DC immediately but Swarm is an imminent threat they have to deal with and he avoids Spell Snare :)

I know emidln was playing Extirpate in the board for a while with DDFT, but I don't remember if he liked it or not. I played it ... twice and boarded it against Dredge and Thresh but never drew it, had the opportunity to Tutor for it but there were always better cards to Tutor for. Pyroclasm is unneeded, Slaughter Pact/Chain works perfectly, and Angel's Grace is just win-more and is dead a good percentage of the time. Hurkyl's Recall is great, sometimes if a couple people in my meta do good with Stax and Stompy I stick one in the SB for the next time I play cause I will most likely be seeing those decks again.

Empty the Warrens is not necessary, at all. I run one because it makes me feel a LOT better against the people in my meta because they run some of the most jank ass cards and I have lost to Tendrils being Extirpated before from Mono-Black Rack.dec .... I just wanted an alternate kill that didn't rely on Doomsday to win. I never board in Helm and Grapeshot and don't really think it is necessary anymore in my meta. EtW comes in against decks that can't deal with it and ones that ravage you hand. Again, this is the open slot in the board, don't have to run EtW but I just feel better knowing it is there.

Your SB strategy seems fine, you were playing ANT without Doomsday correct?

[NQN]

Yip. Well, thanks a lot. I´ll remember then and probably give the swarms another shot.
What are the doomsday for?

[lorddotm]

Yip. Well, thanks a lot. I´ll remember then and probably give the swarms another shot.
What are the doomsday for?

The doomsdays are there against control decks, but if you don't know the piles, it is pretty much impossible for you to use it.

@pulp_fiction Dude, you're a beast. Plus your named is an awesome movie. Cook was the reason I played combo, but you're the reason I play Doomsday in combo :P. Plus youve always been super nice to everyone and supportive of upcoming combo players, emidln has always kind of been an ass (no offense) but an interesting read.

Yeah your board seems like it's pretty narrow, very meta'd for yourself.
Personally I run thus board:

1 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Deathmark
1 Mox Diamond
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Plains
1 Bayou
1 Silence
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Doomsday
2 Krosan Grip

It had been working pretty well.

[emidln]

Extirpate tends to be strongest against decks with hard counters for your chant effects. You use it like you'd use another Chant effect to gain advantage in a war of attrition (your chant effects vs their hard counters). Against a lot of decks, like Tempo Threshold, Extirpate on Force of Will leaves them with no outs to your chants. Extirpate is probably less useful in the 6-7 chant builds when playing against CB than it was when we played a Duress/Chant split, but it's still decent when hitting Force or CB in this matchup. Outside of this, the only places you'd want to board this in would be the combo mirror and maybe dredge.

The major knock against Extirpate now that we have Silence is that Extirpate was largely simulating more Chants. Almost anywhere you had Extirpate (except Landstill), Chant was just as good. Sure, it cripples Dredge for a turn (or it used to when they relied on Narcomoeba, you might now be liable to be assaulted by Therapies/Dread Return anyway due to Bloodghast), but it no longer guarantees Chant superiority in the mirror. In the past the chant superiority thing was so big that in metagames with other well-known good combo players, FT pilots would pack 1 Extirpate and 1 Abeyance for the possible late-round combo mirrors. Now all it really does is be slightly better than another Chant (or Pact) against Landstill, a matchup we steam-roll anyway.

At this point, I don't know if I could really justify including Extirpate over just another Silence/Chant/Abeyance (which isn't all that bad). I have been liking some number of Pact of Negation to complement Xantid Swarm. I think I've arrived at a 1/3 split between Pact/Swarm. It's been important several times to have Swarm's free protection without waiting a turn and Pact can do that. This lets us put more pressure on the CB play to have both CB and SDT on turn 2 or face the possibility that we'll win the game even though they have CB in play*.

*On the play I've been playing a much more aggressive game against CB trying to be an Ad Nauseam deck more than a Doomsday deck. This means that instead of tons of KGrips and a defensive stance I'm trying to pressure them into mulling harder for both Force and CB by turn 2. So far, it's been decently effective against the more aggro-focused NLU and Dreadstill lists I've seen. I'm still playing for a war of attrition on the draw with the siding out Ad Nauseam plan.

[Muradin]

So I played Pulp Fiction's maindeck in a rather small tournament yesterday. We had just 14 participants but the specialty of this location is that no matter how many participants there are, they always play 7 rounds of swiss.

My sideboard was a bit different but basically because I didn't have any Xantid Swarms and some other cards. I played Pact of Negation in those slots and I didn't feel any need to play disenchant effects besides Krosan Grip so I put some other, cool random cards in those slots, nothing of relevance though.

I played against:

Merfolk 2-0

I mulled to 6 game 1 and drop a top. Turn 2 he drops a standstill and starts beating down with a Curse Catcher and a Mutavault. I build up a good hand with top and break his Standstill when I am on 3 life with triple Chant protected Doomsday and some spare mana to pay for Dazes and Catcher.

Game 2 he kept a 1-lander with Curse Catcher and 2 Force of will. He lost badly in turn 5 or so after I had exhausted all of his resources with various Chant effects.

Rock 2-1

Game 1 I win the roll, play fetch, go. He thoughtseizes me, I play Mystical Tutor in response, he dies on turn 2.

Game 2 He goes for turn 1 thoughtseize, Chalice0. Turn 2 Therapy, Bird, Flashback, Turn 3 Hymn. I have a top and even get to cast an Ad Nauseam at 14 Life though all this disruption after repealing his Chalice eot. Eventually I fizzle due to bad reveals.

Game 3: He mulls to 6, I do so as well. He has a lot of disruption again but top filters into a nice hand and I win on about turn 7.

Urw Fish 2-0

He drops a turn 1 Grim Lava Mancer, Turn 2 Flying Men and another Grim Lava Mancer, Turn 3 Mimeomancer. Turn 4 Ninja of the Deep Hours and Jitte.
Bad for him he had no counters at all and loses the very next turn.

Game 2 I kill him with a Doomsday even though he dropped a Blood Moon on turn 3 but I had already my Plains and Island in play and eventually find a black mana source (Petal).

Elf Survival 2-0

Not much to say here. I guess I am supposed to beat that. Game 2 he dropped a Gaddock Teeg that I slaughter pacted and had a Chant but it was so obvious as he held his Savannah far away from his other lands and was always keeping it open from turn 1 on so I could easily win around it.

It's the Fear 1-2

Game 1 he drops a turn 2 Counterbalance, in response I tutor for Krosan Grip. I kill his Balance and go of a turn after this with a double Chant protected Doomsday.

Game 2 I mull to 5 and can't manage to find a third land for my Grip to get rid of his counterbalance.

Game 3 I am busy Pondering and topping into business and he has a turn 2 Goyf. On turn 3 he intuitions for 3 Counterbalance and drops one next turn. I grip it. The next turn I go for it and play a Chant, he forces. Now he has just 2 cards in hand and a top in play. I go for the kill via Ad Nauseam and he spins his top, finds another Force and I proceed to lose.

I am not sure about my sideboarding in this matchup. For game 2 I boarded out my Ad Nauseam package as it is proposed here. But for game 3 when I was on the play I felt more comfortable with Ad Nauseam and got rid Krosan Grip #2-3 as well as my Chant effect #8 to get back my Ad Nauseam as well as the Petals and one of the moxen I boarded out. Do you think this is viable against decks like ITF that do only apply pressure very slowly but got strong recursion engines and thus a very strong late game?

Enchantress 2-0 He didn't have many cards that are relevant in this matchup and I killed him early on both games. Not much to say here.

Solidarity 2-1(Van Phanel, so a very good pilot)

Game 1 I lose the roll but open a quite good hand. Turn 2 I chant him, he forces and I go for it and play rit, rit, Ad Nauseam. He twincasts it but reveals like Turnabout, Meditate, Wish, Reset, Brainstorm, 3 Lands and some more high cc cards, but no FOW. He stops at 2 life after having drawn about 12 cards and my Ad Nauseam resolves. I draw about 20 cards including all the high cc ones and plenty of lands and rituals but no initial mana source. I still had not drawn any petals or moxen at this point of the game and went for 1 more flip. I get a Petal and play, Petal, Rit, Rit, Tendrils (as he was on 2 life).

Game 2 I lose after a very long and drawn out game when I fail to find anything but protection and mana with my top and he kills me easily with 5 lands in play.

Game 3 is goes for about 15 turns as well but he has to force of twincast all of my Chant effects and at some point runs out of counters. I play my 5th Chant for this game I estimate and he tries to go off in response. I pact his Turnabout and Proceed to win with Infernal tutor.

In the end I am 6-1 and end up first. The deck played quite handy, however there are some things that disturb me.

Scrubland was horrible. I had to mull a lot of hands because it didn't produce blue mana and I was stuck with it and some cantrips. Same for Bayou, but I guess I should have adapted my mana base and dropped it because I had no Swarms.

Doomsday was great all day but still a bit hard to play as I am not that experienced with it as of now. I know the basic DD piles and most of the time you can come up with how to win if you know those as they are quite well adaptable to fit a certain situation with some thinking.

Pact was better than expected and thus far I thought that Krosan Grip maindeck is more or less useless but it worked quite well for me.

All the bounce spells I ran in the board sucked. Seriously, Slaughter Pact was awesome and repeal was nice as well but Echoing Truth, Chain of Vapor, Hurkyl’s Recall ... had some more there^^ all sucked. I guess Disenchant is really better. I also had the Helm + Grape shot kill and Empty the Warrens in the board but both were not needed however quite nice. I feel like one difficult task for this deck is to use its sideboard slots efficiently and not just waste the for superfluous cards that might be good in some rare situations that basically don't happen. The maindeck rocked.

Do you think that the non blue lands are needed or did anyone else feel that they are quite bad sometimes?

[NQN]

Yup, here´s what happened yesterday:
I played pulpfictions MD with the following SB:
1 Mox Diamond
1 Plains
1 C.Ritual
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Chain
1 Hurykl
1 Rushing River
1 Slaughter Pact
2 K.Grip
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Doomsday

46 players, 6 rounds of swiss, 30° with 1 tiny window->epic.

Round 1 Gw Legend Land Loss?
G1: He wastes my first two lands, then drops a bird. I go for AN and win.
-1 Grip -1 AN - 2 Silence -2 Chant +1 Chain +1 Pact +IT +1 C.Ritual +1 Plains +Mox DIamond (I set him on GW beatdown)
G2: He caught me offguard with a turn 2 Trinisphere followed by Crucible+Waste-Lock.
+some Solutions for Trinisphere
G3: I mull into a 6 card hand with Rushing River and some lands. He goes for t2 Trinisphere again but I have the river right away and finish him off during my turn.
1-0 2-1

Round 2: Bg False Curse feat. 8 Blue Cards (4 FoW 4 Brainstorm)
G1: She starts off with a tapped Overgrown Tomb and since she´s a women I didn´t expect any counter. So I went for it but lucky had a LED which she immediatly forces. Luckily I had some cards left and manage to win via AN at 30 Life after preventing a Cure kill viá Chant.
-Grip -An -1 Silence + IT, C.Rit, Chain
G2: She kept a one lander and does nothing. Me neither since I cannot find a Chant/Silence and when I´m facing a lethal Kavu Predator I decided to use my LED´s as protection. It worked out, she forced both and Doomsday won the first and only game of the day.
2-0 4-1

Round 3: Felix Heptner (the best TT player I know in my area) with Canadian
G1: I probably made a missplay by playing Scrubland on turn 2 as my only land left. He has the wasteland and I never find lands other than my lonely island.
-AN -Grip -1 Mox + Plains + Mox Diamond + C.Rit
G2: This one was easy. The first Chant got forced but the second on the following turn resolved. Igg sealed the deal.
G3: My opening seven were decent and so were his. We did nothing for the first turn but he had the first action with a Vendilion Clique netting one of my two Chants. When I´m at five I decide that I´ll loose to Fire/Ice anyways and have to go for it. The Chant get´s forced as expected but I cannot find my way through double snare and daze. My last attempt, a mystical on tendrils to draw it with top got destroyed by Ice tapping my top in resp to LED. I guess I could´ve played a little bit better here, but I don´t believe he would´ve made a mistake anyways.
2-1 5-3

Round 4: Ugr AggroControl (FoW,Clique,Daze,Stifle)
G1: He kept one land 4 FoW. I fight through all the forces and since he made some mistakes he has only 1 land for a couple of turns.
Finally, I resolve AN at 19 with IGG already removed. I reveal Tendrils and Grip and zero rituals. I have to continue when I´m at 3 and immediatly reveal Doomsday. Fail.
+3 Xantid -AN -Grip -C.Mox
G2:Karma strikes in and wins this match for me. You could argue I was just very lucky, but I think it was just fair if you look at game one. He had a quick Dreadnought with Force backup and I had to go for IT->Meditate with stormcount 6 and 3 mana left :/ Well, I hitted 2 LED´s and another It. Good Times.
G3: This was easy again. I played some irrelevant things to draw out dazes which worked out perfectly. When I went for it, he didn´t even had a Force for my Chant and I was happy.
3-1 7-4

Round 5 The temperatur is still rising, Naya Zoo
G1: I open a hand with some rituals and Mystical. I end up playing AN on turn 2 with 3 mana floating ->GG.
+IT + Ritual + Mox DIamond(probably a mistake) + Pact + Chan
- AN - Grip - 2 Silence -1 Chant
G2: I mull away AN and Tendrils. He keeps his 6. Long story short:
He stays at 1 land, I do nothing but cantriping for 4 turns. He just needs a second land to finish me off all the time but I finally got my cards ready on turn 6. He had a relic but no mana left to pop it.
4-1 9-4

Round 6: Tobias Dreger with ITF (pretty good player)
G1: I open turn 2 AN with Chant backup. He has land top, land Balance. I loose since he always has 0 and 1 on top.
+2 Grip +1 Doomsday + 3 Xantid Swarm
-AN -2 Chrome Mox -1 Petal -1 C.Ritual -1 Ponder
G2: He has Balance on turn 2. When I try to fetch to get my mana for Grip, he responds with Clique and so I have to use a Ritual to power it out.
He flips a second balance. I manage to get a second grip as well but then fail at getting a LED to complete it. I end up dying with 2 Chants, 1 IT and 1 D. Ritual but not enough Mana to win :(
4-2 9-6

I end up 7/46 and get myself a nice fetchland.

Some conclusions:
-Doomsday did only win one game and, apart from that, was useless all the time
-Swarms were useless as well, since I never had one at the beginning but drew them when I was short on time
- I think I want one Pact as protection that can be used with Mystical+Top immediatly and doesn´t need white
- I´ll stay to faster AN version which might be worse against CB, but win the good matchups safer imho
:rolleyes:

[Moosedog]

OK, so here is a list i have been playing with for the last 2 weeks..I took it to my local over the weekend and took 1st it it going 4-0...unfortunatly we only go 4 rounds..

MAIN
1Tendrils of Agony
1Ill-Gotten Gains
1Ad Nauseam
1Krosan Grip
2Cunning Wish
4Brainstorm
2Sensei's Divining Top
2Ponder
4Mystical Tutor
3Infernal Tutor
3Cabal Ritual
4Dark Ritual
4Lions Eye Diamond
4Lotus Petal
2Chrome Mox
4Orims Chant
3Silence

1Island
2Misty Rainforest
2Flooded Strand
4Polluted Delta
1Scrubland
1Bayou
1Tundra
1Tropical Island
2Underground Sea

BOARD
2Krosan Grip
2Angels Grace
2Extripate
1Hurkleys Recall
1Chain of Vapor
1Slaughter Pact
1Disenchant
1Naturalize
1Ad Nauseam
1Echoing Truth
1Silence
1Pact of Negation


I do not have time right now to write out all my matchups, but i will try to sum up some of the key things...
Clearly the Wish, (BTW has anyone else tried the wish before and disliked it for some reason that i havnt thought of?) for me it won me 2 games hands down. 1st case was against a dredge deck. i was able to wish for an angels grace (my life was apox 5, i dont rem exactly but it was very low...) at end of my opponents turn then i mytical for AdN. my turn draw AdN rit angels grace AdN..draw my deck proceed to win..

The 2nd time where the Wish came in big was against NoPro. The game turned into a top deck game early for me due to his discard. He also boarded in extripate and removed my IT's. I had in play 2 LED and 3 Land. i top deck a Cwish use it for AdN creacking LEDs and proceeding to win...

they also helped out 1 or 2 other situations but were not games changers. but never once did i feel like they were a waste in the deck, which is something i value highly...

the main other thing is the top... 1st off if u dont run at least 2 in the standard ANT in place of 2 Ponder you should really think about it, the amount of time that that card has helped me win games is rediculous...its great b4 and after an AdN and it amazing vs control trying to set everything up...

Im acually considering doing 3 Top 1 Ponder, but am worried this might hurt vs aggro. Has anyone tried that split in ANT?

also if anyone has any suggestions for my board i will take them into consideration, but i feel like its pretty solid right now...

[Lord_Cyrus]

As to board suggestions, lately I've been playing Spell Pierce and loving it. Most times I cast it, it feels as effective as either Chant or Pact of Negation. In some cases, more effective. It's the best defense against discard I have ever used by a long shot.

For reference, my current build:

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Island (1)
1 [ZEN] Swamp (1)
2 [R] Underground Sea
2 [R] Tundra

// Spells
4 [DDC] Dark Ritual
3 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [6E] Mystical Tutor
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [M10] Duress
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
2 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 2 [10E] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 3 [M10] Silence
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate


I'm not sure what to think about the bounce suite... Of the 6 cards, only Echoing Truth has ever come in. When it has, I have been fairly (but not exceptionally) pleased with it. Silence has been a game-winner, as have extirpate and Spell Pierce so far is the MVP, winning tough games all over the place, countering everything from red blasts, thoughtseize, hymns, FoW, etc etc. It's a fantastic pro-active defense that can be used on the first turn of play. What else can I say? Try it out.

[K1LO]

I´ve also tested Spell Pierce, especially against Counterbalance, but just like Pyroblast better as this still works when it already hitted the table. Spell Pierce does nothing against Cursecatchers and Meddling Mages, which is another downside. Against discard I prefer Disrupt, which I sometimes play as a 2-3 off in my Sideboard, when I expect a lot of it. Spell Pierce on the other hand shows its flexibility in countering Chalices of the Void or Trinispheres too, which Disrupt doesn´t. Yeah, stating the obvious here^^. But, those are the matchups I´d rather board more bouncespells in, where Spell Pierce becomes useless once a lockpiece lands. The bounce suite should be more varyated in my opinion, playing at least a Chain of Vapor and/or a Slaughter Pact. I´m a huge fan of Rushing River also, which saved my hairy ass quite a few times. Spell Pierce, I think, has the same problem than Duress, beeing completely outclasses by up to 8 Chant-effects against bluebased decks. I´ve played Duress for a long time on my own, but switched to more Chant-effects in the Maindeck because of my boarding-strategy which often includes a second Ill-Gotten Gains, as I´m also not playing with Doomsday. But, Duress still has its advantages in the first game.


Greetz K1LO

[lorddotm]

Main Deck
3 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Pact of Negation
3 Orim's Chant
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Angel's Grace
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Crystal Vein
1 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Echoing Truth
qty: 60

Sideboard
1 Perish
2 Wipe Away
1 Tempest of Light
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Honor The Fallen
3 Slaughter Pact
4 Duress
1 Orim's Chant

Whatchu think?

[Piceli89]

Meddling Mage on Tendrils, Gaddock Teeg = GG.

[NQN]

Uhm, he has the same amount of outs MD as usual ANT has. I just don´t think that Angels grace deserve a slot :/ I tested it from the sideboard and it never came to use.

[FredMaster]

Uhm, he has the same amount of outs MD as usual ANT has. I just don´t think that Angels grace deserve a slot :/ I tested it from the sideboard and it never came to use.
Thing is that the version doesn't run IGG and therefore can't deal with the situation Piceli89 mentioned.
Angel's Grace definitely is needed here since AN is your only way to combo.
This leads to my conclusion:
The list sucks.

[emidln]

Thing is that the version doesn't run IGG and therefore can't deal with the situation Piceli89 mentioned.
Angel's Grace definitely is needed here since AN is your only way to combo.
This leads to my conclusion:
The list sucks.

I wouldn't say that it sucks, it just has a very different gameplan. The biggest issue when I tested similar lists was that I found myself losing to Duress/Thoughtseize a lot. Since the deck only has 7 bombs, you have to rely on SDT/Brainstorm to dig those out. If one gets discarded, your chances of finding a second one aren't that great. Most lists playing multiple AdNs and 0 LED seem to go the 4/4/2 Petal/Chrome/Diamond route so they can skip Angel's Grace entirely (or just run it from the sb). Those lists usually have Ponders in addition to SDT/BS, although they suffer from the same basic issue. Some of those lists play multiple copies of Tendrils to allow them to stop earlier and/or go for double Tendrils sometimes.

[Piceli89]

Has anyone tried to incorporate Burning Wish in ANT-I mean, without making it become TES (i.e., putting Rite of Flame)? I find it to be an interesting concept. What I'm referring to is the fact that ANT suffers from a certain issue, which is the fact of having a lone kill spell (usually between both maindeck and sideboard) and if they discard it because they know this thing, you are forced to pass through Ill-Gotten Gains.
Of course the inclusion of Burning Wish isn't justified only by this fact, which btw statistically happens really not that much, but by the fact that it would be nice to have a card that can work for us like a virtual toolbox of answers, bombs and protections since g1. Sometimes you just don't go for the immediate kill and need to increase the storm count a bit-->here BWish works greatly because it allows you to go double IGG if you pack 1 Infernal Tutor in sideboard.
Or, in other circumstances, you meet decks against which you usually tend to lose game1. Stax and, more marginally, Dragon Stompy fall into this category. Packing Burning Wish in here helps a lot if you pack Meltdown in sideboard, or any other sort of permanent-hate solution (Vindicate too, perhaps, but it's really slow).
And there's also the Empty the Warrens option, which although not being a safe way to kill opponen as Tendrils generally is, can sometimes steal games alone without making 10 spells in a turn. It's really comfortable -and unexpected-to make 10-12 goblins, and i can see matchups where this should be really enough to win (Tempo Threshold is one of those).

My consideration of packing Burning Wish comes from noticing, in sideboard strategies, how I generally tend to have a large portion of sb slots never really used. In my case, I recognized about 8-9 slots to be really necessary, in 3-colors ANT. The others imo are pretty much redundant, therefore we could use them to create a BWish toolbox which may help us in certain situations.
In the end, I see the majority of ANT lists running 4 Infernal tutors. While I agree that this qty is pretty much necessary due to ANT's low threat density, i think making a 3-1 split between ITs and BWish could really be doable, especially considering that multiple ITs clog up your hand without LED, and, if used without Hellbents, is just a mediocre setup card that gives away information about the combo hand you're building, which is bad.
BWish on the contrary both acts as valid bait spell or card tutor, and it's an optimal storm engine even without LED. It could be interesting to increase this split towards 2/2, but I think we'd have to bastardize the manabase too much, which is a thing I personally dislike in such a consistent deck. A lone Volcanic Island should be enough for the singleton BWish, instead.

Here's for reference a list I'm beginning to work on. I repeat, it's an aggressive traditional ANT lists (and thus it doesn't run 60 chants, but a 4/3 split with Duress) slightly tweaked with Burning Wish as both a solution grabber and an additional, good storm engine/ kill tutor; and 2 SDT, being a real good card with LED and mystical tutor, but not deserving the full set because I always want to keep a certain dose of speed.

Burning ANT

Lands-14

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Swamp

Spells-46

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Mystical Tutor
3 Infernal Tutor
1 Burning Wish

1 Ad Nauseam
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony

2 Orim's Chant
2 Silence
3 Duress
1 Wipe Away

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual (one may leave for a single Pact of Negation, but I'm unsure)
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox (i hate this card, never want to see it f possible pre-AdNauseam. 2 in my testings have resulted to be a still acceptable qty).

Sideboard
2 hurkyl's Recall
2 Wipe Away
1 Chain Of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Disenchant
-------------------
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Deathmark
1 Meltdown
1 Duress


To me the single Burning Wish has potential, both in opening interesting chains (double Ill-Gotten gains is among those), and in guaranteeing the deck more flexibility. Of course it won't be really decisive on a statistic way since it's a 1-of, but to me it's also a sort of psychological security to have it in those MD 60.

[Moosedog]

@Picile89:I was looking into the Bwish situation for the reasons of not feeling like my board was not being taken advantage of or that i felt there were some wasted slots. My current decklist is posted above, i just switched from the Bwish to Cwish bc i couldnt give up on the Grips. they are just that potent IMO. counterbalance also just murders the deck and with Cwish being a 3drop it also can get by countertop due to the minimum amount of 3drops in their decks...

as far as needing other options to kill someone with, i havnt really needed another option with the deck as long as you play smart. I have been using combo for about a year i guess and can only recall 1 time when using ANT that having another option would have have helped. I was glimpsed and i fliped over my Tendrils and Iggy (hahaha, what can u do).

Take a look at my decklist above I feel like the MD is very solid and has a good balance of speed with consistency, The SB i feel might be up for some sugestion there is alot of dredge in my meta (reason for 2 extripate, countertop has died down but i dont want to give up on my grips just yet). if you have any sugestions for the board since were both thinking along the same lines let me know...

[Piceli89]

Moosedog, I really liked the Cunning Wish concept in your build, the problem is that a cc3 spell becomes really slow and can turn into a semidead card in certain situations, because of its cost. If we want to exploit Cunning Wish adequately you need to slow your deck down a bit, which is something i personally dislike. The fact with Burning Wish is that you usually manage to play it with lands only, while Cunning wish, although being instant, would require 3 lands to do it, and ramping to 3 mana is something you can't always manage to do/afford with fast-speed combo. Plus, to play AdNauseam from sideboard you'd need dark ritual + 1U + LED most of the times, which is quite expensive in terms of mana.

I repeat, I like the concept a lot, but what i don't like is adding 2 more cc3 spells which make Ad Nauseam worse and that in certain situations you can't use (decks making mana denial go under this category, too). Plus, Burning Wish ensures having kill spells in the sideboard, which is a huge boost. Of course Cwish ensures BrainFreeze, but it is quite AdN-dependant.

[Moosedog]

I understand your concerns for the cc3 in the deck. in playtesting thogh it hasnt been a problem, by keeping all the accelerants (-1Crit from the standard build) it has been able to play without them very smoothly vs aggro. i havnt tested vs gobbs yet but i have vs zoo and elves. Cwish has been very effective vs they countertop, control, landstill, and NOPRO lists. The Avge casting cost of my list is .95 which might be a little high but i included the MD AdN incase someone states wishing for the other one will kill me.

I plan on continuing to playtest it, and writing my results on this page so maybe i have just been lucky with my draws but as for now im liking this list alot.

[Gocho]

Has anyone tried to incorporate Burning Wish in ANT-I mean, without making it become TES (i.e., putting Rite of Flame)?

Yes, It's named NLS (Next Level Storm):
Add a Doomsday and a Meditate to win with Doomsday piles, but you can remove them:
http://teamstormboards.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=stormcombo&action=display&thread=116

Same users that write in this post, write in TeamStormBoards.

[undone]

Q: how do you side board with this deck I was considering taking an old list and using it

1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Orim's Chant
1 Wipe Away
4 Duress
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Ponder
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea

SB:
4 Dark Confidant
2 Echoing Truth
2 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Pyroblast
2 Wipe Away
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Volcanic Island

I really like the MD bounce it gives you an out to random jank and CB. How do you SB? I have a feeling Bobs come in vs folk, pryoblast comes in vs decks with force, wipe away comes in vs CB decks, (and ETW?) but what comes out I dont know what to pull most of the time with this deck.

[Henrik]

What does a Doomsday pile look like, and how do you win from it?

EDIT:
Also, what's the thought behind 4 dark confidants in the sideboard? I've seen it in different places but in what matches do you board them in, what goes out, and why?

Yes, I am a Storm apprentice/noob.

[Elf_Ascetic]

What does a Doomsday pile look like, and how do you win from it?
Start with:
Resolve Doomsday, have a cantrip or a Top in play, have some mana.

Build pile:
All piles have an element to win in it (mostly tendrils)
Most piles have an drawspell (meditate or brainstorm)
The rest is filled with manaproducers (LED, Dark Ritual or Lotus Petal)
When possible, you can add an Ill-Gotten Gains in your pile. The most basic pile is this, but there are dozens more: (from top to bottom)
Meditate, LED, LED, Petal, Tendrils



EDIT:
Also, what's the thought behind 4 dark confidants in the sideboard? I've seen it in different places but in what matches do you board them in, what goes out, and why?
Mostly against heavy discard. You can board out Chants in those matchups.

[emidln]

While, Meditate/Petal/LED/LED/Tendrils isn't necessarily wrong, I usually explain the pile as:

Meditate/Petal/Dark Rit/Dark Rit/Tendrils.

This is because the double Dark Rit package works in instances where LEDs don't (like using Brainstorm or Ponder to draw into the pile).

The two most ways to win with Doomsday can both use this for their cheapest wins at 7 mana total for Doomsday+blue cantrip or 6 mana total for Doomsday+SDT. If you have extra cards in hand or multiple cantrips you can reduce the mana cost of Doomsday, but these are generally more advanced piles. It's possible to win for 4 and 5 mana consistently and easily if you are willing to learn a lot of piles or think about your game state a lot.

2BBBUU - Doomsday in hand, Ponder/Brainstorm in hand
cast Doomsday for Meditate/Petal/Dark Rit/Dark Rit/Tendrils
Cantrip into Meditate, Meditate into Petal/Rit/Rit/Tendrils, play them out ftw.

2BBBU - Doomsday in hand, SDT in play
cast Doomsday for Meditate/Petal/Dark Rit/Dark Rit/Tendrils
Cantrip into Meditate. Meditate into SDT/Petal/Rit/Rit. Play out the rits, then SDT, and activate SDT to draw Tendrils with the mana to play it.

When you use SDT to draw into the pile, LED can replace the Dark Rits, and this enables you to build more advanced piles (like those with a second SDT, a Burning Wish, etc).

There are a lot of Doomsday piles documented at http://docs.google.com/View?id=d3hxs7m_16cr3v59c9

[Gocho]

I usually explain the pile as:

Meditate/Petal/Dark Rit/Dark Rit/Tendrils.



This way it's more clear that the document at http://docs.google.com/View?id=d3hxs7m_16cr3v59c9

Thanks Emidln

[Muradin]

So I've played both, Pulp Fiction's ANT DD hybrid list and NLS in tournaments. Both worked extremely well in those games and were also quite good in the testing I did with them.

Both decks are quite similar. They run 15 Lands, 2 Moxen, 4 LED, 4 Petal, 4 Top...

The differences are basically that NLS runs Burning Wish, 1 Thoughtseize and 4 Duress while Pulp fiction's list runs 6 Chants, Krosan Grip and 1 more Infernal Tutor. (at least regarding the most recent list posted by Emidln on Storm Boards)

So I really like how flexible Burning Wish is and that Duress can take Counterbalance and you get to see what they still got to disrupt you but Chants are so much better against Countermagic as they get arround Spell Snare and Stifle (for top activations in DD piles) and allow me to go for the IGG loop in case I get to resolve one. My problem with NLS is that I still didn't get to play many games against Canadian Threshold and Merfolk. So basically, do you think NLS has a less favorable matchup against those 2 decks than the 6 Chant version?
In general, where does NLS have the edge and where DD ANT?

EDIT: Do you all still really feel that Chrome Mox is still needed with Ad Nauseam? Sure, without it you probably can't go off without either having near 20 life or some mana floating, but that's still pretty good. I think they can be cut, but saying this I've already done quite some goldfishing with this deck but still don't have that much tournamament experience, so this sugesstion might be off. I am just so tired of desperately trying to get rid of my moxen in so many matchups and basically never wanting to draw even one of them, not speaking of two.

[Pulp_Fiction]

@Muradin: I don't think there is a particular edge over either, both have their merits and weaknesses, I think it all comes down to preference. I built up NLS and really just didn't like Burning Wish. It is very nice and versatile, but there are situations where I draw multiples and hate it, and in certain scenarios where you rip it off the top and a a few mana short of winning. I also don't like how LED, LED, BW does not win the game by itself (unless you have IT in the yard). BW just seems to have a bigger requirement than IT which I don't care for. EtW is nice, but even in TES, I only used it as a last resort or for turn 1 explosions. But if you play in a meta with lots of Meddling Mages, Runed Halos, Extirpates, Earwig Squad, and Extracts running around then I do recommend NLS; it really is preference, neither is better than the other, just whatever list the player feels more comfortable with.

Chrome Mox is 100% necessary IMOP. I really like the card and I know it helps AdN when you cast is early without mana floating on turns 1-2. Yeah, drawing it sucks, but its a small price to pay and it does help in the Dragon Stompy/Stax matchups. I would not play AdN without it, plus the AdN package only takes up 3 slots total, and if you reallly wanted to you could get away with no Moxen but ... AdN would not be near as consistent.

Last night I sadly made it to top 8 out of 30ish people then lost out in the top 8 and didn't win anything! It was quite frustrating! This is the list I played:

4x LED
4x Orim's Chant
4x Dark Ritual
4x Brainstorm
4x Top
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Lotus Petal
3x Infernal Tutor
2x Ponder
2x Cabal Ritual
2x Silence
2x Chrome Mox
1x Tendrils
1x Krosan Grip
1x Meditate
1x IGG
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Doomsday

4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
2x Underground Sea
1x Tundra
1x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Tropical Island
1x Island

Sideboard
3x Xantid Swarm
2x Disenchant
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Doomsday
2x Krosan Grip
1x Naturalize
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Plains

I ended up going 3-1-1 and kept playing against Counterbalance garbage. My meta is starting to look like a standard tournament with a bunch of idiots all playing the same shit ... very dull. Anyway, I had some hideous luck with Top activations and Brainstorms all night and was unable to find Krosan Grip much at all. The deck was performing on a level far below what it should and my opponents all had pretty good draws but here is a brief summary of what happened:

Round 1 - 4C Thresh CB garbage
g1: Locked out on turn 2.
g2: Everytime I look with Top I see Top/Top/land or something of that nature, can't find a fucking Krosan Grip and of course he gets turn 1 Top turn 2 CB yet again ...

Round 2 - Enchantress
g1: IGG loop on turn 3.
g2: I punt this pretty bad, not expecting the hate to come down on his turn 2. Opening hand was: LED, LED, IT, land, Chant, Chant, Meditate. I decide to roll with it, he goes turn 1 land + Utopia Sprawl, I play fetch, go. I was tryin to squeeze an extra turn out of my timewalks so I didn't chant during upkeep, I should have but I didn't like my odds of drawing what I needed next turn since I always assume the deck is going to fuck me over .. he drops Aura of Silence, then gets double Sterling Grove. Assuming I had chanted him on my turn 1, I drew a land ...fuck.
g3: Opening hand was: Rit, Rit, Doomsday, Petal, IT, fetch, Sea. YES!!!! I play Sea, Rit, Doomsday, GO!! The Doomsday pile is: Brainstorm, LED, Rit, IGG, Tendrils, Doomsday go is AWESOME!!!

Round 3: 4C CB Thresh again
g1: I test defenses with a Chant and a turn before I die I have a hand full of goodness but no win and a Top in play. I Chant, he counters, I activate Top, he Stifles, I play Rit and another Top, activate for yet another Chant, it resolves. I play out Rit, LED, and Meditate. Meditate gets Top, land, land, Chant .... play Top and look at top 3 and see Tendrils!! WIN!
g2: Deck gives me garbage and he has answers to both my Swarms.
g3: I amass a nice hand but can't really do anything. Grip removes CB and I have a Swarm in play but he has a Predator so I only get 1 attack. 2 Turns before I will die he taps out doing a bunch of stuff and I decide to go for it. I attack with Swarm and let the goodness begin. I had a MT in the yard and my hand was: LED, LED, IGG, Petal, Brainstorm and I have 4 lands in play. I Brainstorm into IT and a Rit and IGG out! With MT in the yard literally 60-70% of the cards in the deck won here and I had 3 cards to look at with Brainstorm!

Round 4 - Dream Halls with Duress and Force main
g1: I get Duressed on turn 1 and turn 4 AdN gets forced. I rebuild my hand with Top a little and he tries to win with Dream Halls but can't do it through double chant! My hand is Doomsday and MT after this with a bunch of lands. Upkeep MT for Cabal Ritual (threshed), CRit, DD and build the pile: Meditate, Petal, Rit, Rit, Tendrils with him at 18 life :)
g2: I get turn 1 Swarm and double Mystical in my hand, he never really had a chance, Mystical for Rit and AdN and easily win after attacking with Swarm on turn 3.

Round 5 - ID with whienot

Top 8
Round 6 - U/G/b CB Thresh
g1: Turn 1 Top, Daze my Top, turn 3 CB ... not much here, I go for the win before I die with IT but he has a 2 drop on top ... who would have guessed?
g2: I had a Swarm in play and the win but of course, after I chant him on upkeep it gets Dazed and he naturally has the CB on turn 3, but no Top. I keep testing CB with random shit, unable to draw Krosan Grip. I eventually find Grip and am 1 mana short of winning the whole game. Had I drawn: LED, Rit, or CRit at almost any point I would have won .. nature of the beast I guess.

[RogueMTG]

Top 8 of a 5 round tourny and you got nothing? WTF kind of support is that. :cry:

[Horror Business]

Reading the tournament report section made me lol. Goblins beating combo...which I can totally relate to.
On Saturday I played our little local weekly Legacy. Beat Canadian, Dredge, and Ug Merfolk but lost to MONO RED GOBLINS in the Swiss. Mull to 5 game 1 and my lone Scrubland gets wasted so by the time I get another land I'm facing down lethal. I mull to 6 game 2 and keep a super slowmo hand but with a Chant so I figure I could stall a turn and hopeully pull out a win by turn 4 or so but that didn't happen because Warren Instigator dream crushed me. Should have gone to 5 again but guess I learned that too late.
Nothing like losing to a what 70-30 match up? and winning some of the toughest match ups in the format :rolleyes:
My board was a little nutty:
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
3 Pyroblast
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
2 Xantid Swarm
3 Krosan Grip
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor
I figured that would handle the little hatebears and CBs in the meta. I switched out Serenity(we can have up to 3 people playing Stax) for Blasts/red lands when I saw there was going to be quite a bit of blue. Might be dumb to pack that much land but I seemed to have most things covered so I was ok with it. I just stuck to Blasts postboard for the Canadian and Folk games. Swarm seem like the bees knees against Merfolk since they lack removal but Pyroblast hits their whole(almost) deck so I went with those.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Top 8 of a 5 round tourny and you got nothing? WTF kind of support is that. :cry:

Its based on store credit. You pay 5$ to enter the tournament but that money is actually store credit. So basically, buy a card and ur in the tournament. And the tournament payouts are based on attendence and prize is store credit, when there are enough people and it goes late (like when kabal plays Canadian Thresh and takes 2 minute Ponders) we often do a top 8 split but usually it is top 4.

Its also kind of sad, not sure why no one wants to do a top 8 split most of the time, we will usually all leave with 20$ or so store credit. I never want to play it out, I only play when I have to because I don't want to leave the matchups up to luck to decide. All that "well my deck is good and I will never split because I am good and will win" type of mentality is for the ignorant. When you have already won something, why push it and potentially leave with nothing. I never leave luck up to decide because to many times have I made it to top 8 and mulled into garbage and lost. Due to no play error of my own, the deck just decided to tell me to fuck off and I lost, not a single thing I can do :(

[whienot]

Pulp, I think I remember Jim saying there is an issue with DCI reporter and doing top8 splits, or we may split more often. I'm pretty sure most if the top 8 were fine with the split though, but it only takes one to keep us there.

We really can't complain. It's the price we pay for getting to have a thriving legacy scene.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Pulp, I think I remember Jim saying there is an issue with DCI reporter and doing top8 splits, or we may split more often. I'm pretty sure most if the top 8 were fine with the split though, but it only takes one to keep us there.

We really can't complain. It's the price we pay for getting to have a thriving legacy scene.

Yeah i mean i don't mind playing, but when just one guy is being a dick for store credit then it gets annoying. That happens alot though, then they back out if they have a bad MU. Gah.

We should seriously start a team. We have really good players, and i mean it could be like, me, whienot, pulp, kabal and thor. We all PWN teh n00bs hard.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Pulp, I think I remember Jim saying there is an issue with DCI reporter and doing top8 splits, or we may split more often. I'm pretty sure most if the top 8 were fine with the split though, but it only takes one to keep us there.

We really can't complain. It's the price we pay for getting to have a thriving legacy scene.

If that is the case, we can do a top 8 split and then mark it down as a top 4 split. I have not 1 problem saying I lost in the top 8, as long as I leave with store credit I am happy. Since I haven't cared about my rating ... well, ever, not a problem here :) I'm all about the money, that AEM Short Ram for my Prelude isn't going to buy itself!!

[Spardantevil]

Hey guys, just passing to tell you that I won the French Legacy Championship 2 weeks ago, and a 28 person tourney today with the following list:

// NAME : [T1.5] Ad Pony Nauseam
// CREATOR : Rompeprop (magic-ville.com)
// FORMAT :
1 Island
1 Tundra
2 Swamp
3 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Chrome Mox
2 Mox Diamond
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Mystical Tutor
2 Tendrils of Agony
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Duress
4 Ponder

SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 2 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 2 Pact of Negation
SB: 3 Slaughter Pact
SB: 3 Orim's Chant
SB: 1 Tundra
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Angel's Grace


Just sharing my 2 cents :)

[merfolkotpt]

How would you build this deck if you knew a meta was very underpopulated with CB/Top, was made up of decks that were easily build-able for extended players, in this case I am assuming I am going to see some version of Zoo (with crappy mana bases), Dredge, maybe some sui black, pickula, or BG dudes decks, and at least one other ANT deck. I imagine it is possible that people will build merfolk because other than force and standstill all the cards were recently in standard and people have them, and the other cards can be borrowed fairly easily and as such this deck is easily the cheapest top deck in the format.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@Pulp: What is the IGG Loop? :laugh:

[Muradin]

I guess this series of play shouldn't be called Igg loop in this thread any longer because so many people don't read the thread and thus don't know what we are talking about.

The IGG koop is in general playing 2 LED and 1 Infernal Tutor. You tutor for Ill-Gotten Gains and sacrifice the LEDs in response. You recurr those 3 cards and tutor for Tendrils of Agony. This gives you quite some storm and the whole loop expression comes from the Iggy Pop deck that icluded 4 Ill- Gotten Gains and thus could repeat this process 4 times.

[NQN]

Hey guys, just passing to tell you that I won the French Legacy Championship 2 weeks ago, and a 28 person tourney today with the following list:

// NAME : [T1.5] Ad Pony Nauseam
// CREATOR : Rompeprop (magic-ville.com)
// FORMAT :
1 Island
1 Tundra
2 Swamp
3 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Chrome Mox
2 Mox Diamond
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Mystical Tutor
2 Tendrils of Agony
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Duress
4 Ponder

SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 2 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 2 Pact of Negation
SB: 3 Slaughter Pact
SB: 3 Orim's Chant
SB: 1 Tundra
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Angel's Grace


Just sharing my 2 cents :)


Nothing else? Just a list? How was it for you to have to go off turn 1-3 against aggro? Why not just -1 ToA +1Igg?

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I guess this series of play shouldn't be called Igg loop in this thread any longer because so many people don't read the thread and thus don't know what we are talking about.

The IGG koop is in general playing 2 LED and 1 Infernal Tutor. You tutor for Ill-Gotten Gains and sacrifice the LEDs in response. You recurr those 3 cards and tutor for Tendrils of Agony. This gives you quite some storm and the whole loop expression comes from the Iggy Pop deck that icluded 4 Ill- Gotten Gains and thus could repeat this process 4 times.

I'm sorry i made you type all that. I know what the IGG Loop is, i was just giving Pulp hell is all.

This thread is known for people coming in asking what the IGG Loop is haha.

[Spardantevil]

Nothing else? Just a list?

For people who can read french, I did a complete report here, with photos & stuff (http://www.magic-ville.com/fr/gazette/show_article?ref=445)

So just to explain you all how it works: we organised the "Coupe de France Legacy" for the first time this year. It's pretty simple: we make a ranking of the french players out of their results in tournaments for one year, the invite the 64 first to play the finals. There are a few Opens to get a slot too. So the tourney is "only" 64 players. Besides, it's the 64 best legacy players so I guess I didn't steal it :D


Here's a quick report for you:


Round 1: Bant Loam

G1: I know what he's playing, I keep a slow hand because he mulls, and go off Turn 6/7.

G2: I know he sided lots of boring stuff (gaddock, cannonist...), I get the slaughter pacts in. The game is quite long again, but I have a pact in hand so it's pretty easy. I think he has stifle in hand, but I double tendrils so it's no problem.

1/0

Round 2: Landstill

G1: I duress him, getting a brainstorm (shitty hand). I go off 2 turns later, he topdecked fow... but not the blue card to pitch :)

G2: I don't know what kind of stuff he's getting in, so I side in chants & PoN over LeD/infernal. He tutors T1 for Null rod :/. I don't have any bounce, gg.

G3: I get echoing and a hurkyl's. I go off turn 3: dark rit, counterspell, pact of negation, Force. OH WAIT HE DOESN'T HAVE A BLUE CARD TO PITCH LET'S ROOOOOOLLLLL!! AdN gives me a mix of ponder/brainstorm/top/duress/cabal ritual and kills me. A single dark rital would have given me the game... Ach.

1/1

Round 3: Staxx

G1: He opens with Academy Ruins. I kill T1.

G2: I don't know what he's playing so i get in PoN and an echoing truth. He opens with T1 chalice@1. I had the bounce in hand :3. T2 smokestack, eot echoing truth. T3-> kill.

2/1


Round 4: GW aggro/control

G1: I know what he's playing, i kill him with no pressure.

G2: I know he's siding in lots of gaddock/cannonist stuff, so i get the pacts in. He gaddocks T2. On my turn 4 I slaughter it then go off. I kill next turn with IGG because AdN didn't give me enough mana to kill on the turn.

3/1


Round 5: ichorid

G1: don't remember the game, but I win

G2: He plays 2 cabal therapy+ flashback, I scoop.

G3: He plays 1 cabal+ flashback, but this time he's quite slow so I manage to get off thanks to top :)

4/1


Round 6: Mirror

G1: It's my test partner, we made the list together. We have the exact same list except for one slot :/. He plays a duress, I play 2. I win.

G2: he gets the pacts+ chants in. I get nothing. He mulls to 6 and keeps a middle hand. he plays tundra, top go. He will play nothing else in the game. I duress him and go off.

5/1


Top 8 \o/


1/4: goblins

G1: I know he's playing goblins, no pressure. I win.

G2: He mulls so I keep a kinda slow hand. He beats me down a little, so i decide to go off with IGG. I win.


1/2 UGr tempo thresh with CB

WOW. Pretty bad MU :/

G1: I mull. He assembles cb+top while I draw tendrils and infernal tutors. GG

G2: I side in PoN and chants. He mulls. When I try to go off he spell pierces the AdN. I PoN, he bolts me twice :/. I still manage to win.

G3: He mulls again. I mystical for AdNauseam EoT2. T3 I go off with lots of mana, he dazes. No FOOOOORCE I WIIIIIN \o/


Finals: Goblins

Pretty funny game.

G1: he wins the toss, beats me with pili, I kill T3.

G2: just take a look at the report in french, see my starting hand.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I'm sorry i made you type all that. I know what the IGG Loop is, i was just giving Pulp hell is all.

This thread is known for people coming in asking what the IGG Loop is haha.

LOLOLOL .... it really wasn't funny :) But yes, I would recommend that we update the OP with info on how to play the deck but, people don't read any of the thread (even when they can't play the deck), let alone the OP; nor do they utilize the search feature. Quite sad really :(

EDIT: I did actually laugh when you initially posted that!

[Piceli89]

I'm currently trying PF's version of DDFt/ANT hybrid. While I like the sinergies between Tops and Mystical/AdNauseam, I'd noticed how much AdNauseam in here is completely suboptimal because of the Doomsday core (DD + Meditate), which makes it noticeably worse than how it is in straight ANT. I know that AdNauseam is the only storm engine that doesn't require you to setup with several cards and in normal conditions is an autowin out of nowhere, but it seems that this thing doesn't happen in here. Does anyone have tried a way to optimize it a bit more? I know that the 3rd mox is impossible to it because it would interfere too much with the DD part, but perhaps there's something else that can act like a sort of IMS. Rain Of Filth? 15 lands could be enough.

Also, about the Sb strategies: I don't know if , against TT and Merfolks, boarding to become a straight DDFT is the right thing. TT is usually SBing in some Grips to handle Top, which mean that the DD plan can be seriously fucked up. Merfolk on the contrary tries to win as fast as possible and there have been times when I couldn't handle the quick clock, or just finished with DDay in hand and no top, and couldn't go for IGG because of Relic of Progenitus or them recurring Force/Daze (which are tedious along with Cursecatcher). In general, furthermore, I found Top to be too slow against Merfolks, tbh.
Any considerations about these MUs?

Last question: did anyone try to make the Hybrid version run onyl staying in the UBW colours? I tend to be reluctant in front of splashing a 4th colour because i like the possibility of having both Island and Swamp as basic lands ( and a Plains in side against tempo decks, ok); I can't deny that Xantid Swarm and Grip are great to face the hate, but , apart from Merfolks, 6 Chants (MD) and a Pact of Negation (from the sb) should be enough to handle Tempo decks. While for Grip, i replace it with Wipe Away. While it doesn't get rid of the enchantmente permanently, i found myself casting in the eot, and usually having success. Plus, CB decks are on a downside, so I'm not really afraid of them as i used to be. In the Stax Matchup, instead, the difference between a 3-cc removal and a 2-cc removal may matter a lot, because of the wasteland effect and also for Armageddons. That's why I tend to prefer several Disenchants over KGrip in this Matchup; also considering that the latter depends on a dual land, while the basic plains allows for "safe" mana for Disenchant.
I post my list, I'd like experts of this particular build to give me more in-depth suggestions about their experience with a hypothetical 3-colours only list.

1 [TSP] Island (4)
1 [B] Scrubland
2 [A] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [A] Tundra
1 [PT] Swamp (2)

// Spells
1 [WL] Doomsday
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
1 [OV] Meditate
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
1 [TSP] Wipe Away
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [B] Dark Ritual
2 [TO] Cabal Ritual
3 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
2 [LRW] Ponder
2 [MR] Chrome Mox
2 [M10] Silence

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [WL] Doomsday
SB: 2 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 2 [10E] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 [FUT] Pact of Negation
SB: 2 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 2 [MI] Disenchant
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [LRW] Plains (4)

[Henrik]

I remember playing against you with this deck on MWS a couple of weeks ago, and if I'm not mistaken, I got my face stomped pretty badly. All I can say from that is that the deck seems good, but since I'm no expert, that's all the depth I can give you.

[lorddotm]

Main Deck
3 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Pact of Negation
3 Orim's Chant
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Angel's Grace
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Crystal Vein
1 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Echoing Truth

Sideboard
1 Perish
2 Wipe Away
1 Tempest of Light
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Honor The Fallen
3 Slaughter Pact
4 Duress
1 Orim's Chant


Thoughts?

This placed first at my local stores last tournament.

[P.S.]

I slapped together Pulp Fiction's list. Only change is I turned the Scrubland into a Misty Rainforest (recommendation by Bahamut, I think, a few pages back). I plan on playing it all night tonight since I haven't played it in a couple of weeks.

There's a tournament tomorrow that I might play in. I can already tell that I am not going to like the Sideboard though, but we'll see.

The only reason I am debating on playing or not is because it's a $15 entry and the prize is just a dual land. Plus there's not a huge Legacy following around here, so I'm not even sure if the tournament will make.

Oh, I did have a question though. If they go Island -> Tap, Extract, name Tendrils. Do I just lose?

[lorddotm]

I slapped together Pulp Fiction's list. Only change is I turned the Scrubland into a Misty Rainforest (recommendation by Bahamut, I think, a few pages back). I plan on playing it all night tonight since I haven't played it in a couple of weeks.

There's a tournament tomorrow that I might play in. I can already tell that I am not going to like the Sideboard though, but we'll see.

The only reason I am debating on playing or not is because it's a $15 entry and the prize is just a dual land. Plus there's not a huge Legacy following around here, so I'm not even sure if the tournament will make.

Oh, I did have a question though. If they go Island -> Tap, Extract, name Tendrils. Do I just lose?

Yes.

[Piceli89]

I slapped together Pulp Fiction's list. Only change is I turned the Scrubland into a Misty Rainforest (recommendation by Bahamut, I think, a few pages back). I plan on playing it all night tonight since I haven't played it in a couple of weeks.

There's a tournament tomorrow that I might play in. I can already tell that I am not going to like the Sideboard though, but we'll see.

The only reason I am debating on playing or not is because it's a $15 entry and the prize is just a dual land. Plus there's not a huge Legacy following around here, so I'm not even sure if the tournament will make.

Oh, I did have a question though. If they go Island -> Tap, Extract, name Tendrils. Do I just lose?

Yes. But you can always run Grapeshot+Helm in sb.
And , in any case, it's better not to run BWish and to lose to Extract than to run Burning Wish, to not lose to Extract but to roll over from many other cards.

Anyone willing to answer my previous post? Come on, I'd ask it on the StormBoards but the avg quantity of posts written there is something like 0.10 :frown:

[Bahamuth]

I'm currently trying PF's version of DDFt/ANT hybrid. While I like the sinergies between Tops and Mystical/AdNauseam, I'd noticed how much AdNauseam in here is completely suboptimal because of the Doomsday core (DD + Meditate), which makes it noticeably worse than how it is in straight ANT. I know that AdNauseam is the only storm engine that doesn't require you to setup with several cards and in normal conditions is an autowin out of nowhere, but it seems that this thing doesn't happen in here. Does anyone have tried a way to optimize it a bit more? I know that the 3rd mox is impossible to it because it would interfere too much with the DD part, but perhaps there's something else that can act like a sort of IMS. Rain Of Filth? 15 lands could be enough.

My team has been playing a straight ANT list (14 land, 3 Mox 8 protection and the rest 4-offs) for quite some time before switching to the hybrid. I disagree with you that Ad Nauseam is completely suboptimal. I dare say it's as good if not better in this version than in straight ANT (I'm assuming a list without Tops for ANT) . The Tops make Ad Nauseam much better. It really helps.

I wouldn't run a 3th Mox. In fact, I wouldn't run a Mox at all if I didn't play AdN. They seriously suck. You almost never want to draw into one.

Rain of Filth is a decent card, but it doesn't go too well with AdN, because you have AdN to have a plan to be fast in those matchups where you can goldfish (or race random hate). I board out AdN with a lot of accel against pretty much every deck running blue.


Also, about the Sb strategies: I don't know if , against TT and Merfolks, boarding to become a straight DDFT is the right thing. TT is usually SBing in some Grips to handle Top, which mean that the DD plan can be seriously fucked up. Merfolk on the contrary tries to win as fast as possible and there have been times when I couldn't handle the quick clock, or just finished with DDay in hand and no top, and couldn't go for IGG because of Relic of Progenitus or them recurring Force/Daze (which are tedious along with Cursecatcher). In general, furthermore, I found Top to be too slow against Merfolks, tbh.
Any considerations about these MUs?

I don't think Tempo Thresh will often board more than 2 Krosan Grip. Also, it's not always that much of a big deal when they Grip Top. You can very often win via regular IGG anyway, because you get so much time to resolve a Chant.

Merfolk is kind of annoying. I don't think Top is too slow though. Merfolk won't always be that fast. I don't know, every time I lose to Merfolk, they get insane hands with T1 Catcher T2 Lord T3 Catcher Lord with FoW in hand or something. You're probably not going to beat that often (although you certainly can). Regularly they will just drop turn 1 Vial and do nothing Turn 2 giving you a pretty huge window of time to play and abuse Top.


Last question: did anyone try to make the Hybrid version run onyl staying in the UBW colours? I tend to be reluctant in front of splashing a 4th colour because i like the possibility of having both Island and Swamp as basic lands ( and a Plains in side against tempo decks, ok); I can't deny that Xantid Swarm and Grip are great to face the hate, but , apart from Merfolks, 6 Chants (MD) and a Pact of Negation (from the sb) should be enough to handle Tempo decks. While for Grip, i replace it with Wipe Away. While it doesn't get rid of the enchantmente permanently, i found myself casting in the eot, and usually having success. Plus, CB decks are on a downside, so I'm not really afraid of them as i used to be. In the Stax Matchup, instead, the difference between a 3-cc removal and a 2-cc removal may matter a lot, because of the wasteland effect and also for Armageddons. That's why I tend to prefer several Disenchants over KGrip in this Matchup; also considering that the latter depends on a dual land, while the basic plains allows for "safe" mana for Disenchant.

I started out with a 3c list as well, but honestly, I just went with 4c for Grip because there was almost no reason not to. I'm not very fond of basics at all. Those times you do face Tempo Thresh, which is really the only place you would want the basics (except for random crap like Dragon Stompy or Stax). Even in those matchups, I often find myself just fetching for Duals anyway, because there's little point in fetching basics when you're holding Sea or Tundra. I think the basic Island is important, because it allows you to keep cantripping, but the others (Plains and Swamp) are terrible draws, which is why I don't play them in the mainboard.

For the sideboard, mine is a little different from the lists you see here, because we run a 4-off that kind of fills the purpose of the basic land and the plan against Wasteland. For that reason I cut the basic Plains, but I would suggest it for a regular sideboard.



I post my list, I'd like experts of this particular build to give me more in-depth suggestions about their experience with a hypothetical 3-colours only list.

1 [TSP] Island (4)
1 [B] Scrubland
2 [A] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [A] Tundra
1 [PT] Swamp (2)

// Spells
1 [WL] Doomsday
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
1 [OV] Meditate
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
1 [TSP] Wipe Away
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [B] Dark Ritual
2 [TO] Cabal Ritual
3 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
2 [LRW] Ponder
2 [MR] Chrome Mox
2 [M10] Silence

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [WL] Doomsday
SB: 2 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 2 [10E] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 [FUT] Pact of Negation
SB: 2 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 2 [MI] Disenchant
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [LRW] Plains (4)

I suppose you could play Disenchant if there's an abundance of Stax in your meta. This isn't the case over here, so I wouldn't run those. 2 Slaughter Pact seems a bit random too. I'd rather have more bounce instead. I also like Truth more than Chain, but it seems that I'm the only one in that (might be because of Solidarity, where the card was wonderfull).

Unless you have a lot of mainboard CB in your meta, I wouldn't run the bounce mainboard. I generally hate drawing into it and it makes your AdN significantly worse. As I also said, I don't like the Swamp in the mainboard, and I don't like the Scrubland either, although it's not that bad. I cut them both for more fetchland. Running 10 fetchland is pretty good, perhaps you should try it.

As for Extract, yea you lose when the opponent has one (except for the extremely rare occasion where you're holding the Tendrills). I don't really care. It's a decent sideboard slot as a 1-off for Mystical I suppose, if you're expecting that much storm.

[P.S.]

I don't really care. It's a decent sideboard slot as a 1-off for Mystical I suppose, if you're expecting that much storm.

I am not expecting Storm at all. I am expecting people that have Islands to just slap Extract in their Sideboard when someone shows up without a creature deck though. That's the price you pay when playing in a smaller area, I suppose.

I was considering putting a second Tendrils in the Sideboard for solely that reason. :cry:

[Piceli89]

I just played against Dreadstill.








And he played Extract.

Ok, I'll shut up.

[Pulp_Fiction]

@Piceli89: Do you want to know how I sideboard with the list against blue? I posted it over on the Stormboards and I can post it over here if you want. Boarding into more DD and turning the deck into DDFT is the best strategy I have found against blue control. Ad Nauseam is usually worthless after turn 4 and especially worthless after you have more Grips in the deck so thats why it gets cut. Don't worry about them casting KGrip on Top, who cares, you have 3 more and 4 Brainstorm (and 2 Ponder depending on the list) and they also have to worry about Chant + IGG loop so you have a lot of different angles to come at them from. AdN from my experience just sucks in the blue matchups.

I would not ever play AdN without Chrome Mox, if you want to run Rain of Filth in addition to Moxen go ahead but it is largely worthless unless gaining threshold for CRit and it does not sustain the IGG Loop unless you have a shit ton of lands in play.

Why not play the 4th color? It really doesn't hurt you at all. Green has way to much to offer and I have been locked out of games before with Wipe Away so ... Grip is a must IMOP.

@ P.S.: SB is all meta-dependent man. I only post mine because this is what works in my meta, build it according to your own specifications based on what decks you are more likely to play against.

EtW is an out to Extract as well as Grapeshot+Helm. But seriously, if someone is dumb enough to play Extract .... more power to them, other matchups will suffer with this garbage in the SB. It is a lot like Mindbreak Trap, largely irrelevant and takes up SB slots. It isn't like storm combo is everywhere, but if some goober really feels the need to have a marginalized card that is only good in one matchup and run it as a 3-4of in their SB only to be met with Chant + win .... I guess that is their choice. Don't worry about Extract nor should you play it, SB slots are already tight as it is.

@lorddotm: I really don't like those lists at all. I hate LEDless but still, what were the matchups this thing beat in taking first place?

[lorddotm]

@lorddotm: I really don't like those lists at all. I hate LEDless but still, what were the matchups this thing beat in taking first place?

2 Merfolk, 1 CB/Top, 2 TES, 1 Ichorid, 1 Goblins, 1 Dreadstill

I agree, I personally don't really like this list, but it did put up the result, so maybe its worth looking at (he got it from a friend in Portland who supposedly is doing really well with the list).

And could you post your sideboarding for every matchup?

I don't have your exact sideboard, but it would be helpful in seeing what you thing is worth it (I'm actually making a transition from TES to PFH (I dubbed the UBwg AdN/DD Hybrid PFH or pulp_fiction Hybrid).

Lastly, what kind of metagame would TES be better in than PFH or NLS. And where is NLS better than PFH and vise versa.

[Piceli89]

Bahamuth and PF: thanks to both for the answers. My concerns are essentially about the 4th colour and Merfolks. I played some matches against Countertop shits and I felt the really difference between destroying CB and bouncing it, and that's pretty much an abysmal difference. I also like the fact that green opens Xantid Swarm, which is really a huge tool against Merfolks. But i think I'm nOT going to pack the single Bayou, because I like to have as much U-lands as possible to cantrip. Perhaps a configuration like this:

8 fetchlands
2 USea
2 Tundras
1 Scrubland (too good to me not to be included, there have been many times when I needed it).
1 Tropical
1 Island

Could work fine. Of course there's another Trop in the side to help against those matchups where I'd heavily board in green cards. And so we come to Merfolks, and all the doubts i have reguarding this matchup:
I noticed that you are used to board out AdNauseam in favor of a straight DD configuration. But Doomsday, despites requiring less acceleration pieces, is almost always a SDT dependant engine. Ok, you have other cantrips, but i'm used to abuse BS and Ponder as setup spells to build the combo hand , not to keep them in favor of a future Doomsday. The point I've noticed several times is that sometimes straight Doomsday isn't the best option against Blue: you open hands with several protections and accelerations, and a Mystical. Now, in this case AdNauseam would be an instant auto-win if cast early, while with DD i have to wait until i find a cantrip. I'm really unsure about the effectiveness of this SB strategy, especially against decks packing a fast clock ala Merfolks. Also, the other thing which makes me a bit skeleptical about sb'ing out AdN against Merfolks is that we're NOT usually going to board in KGrips, but, on the cotnrary, we're also boarding out that single one maindeck in favor of Chain of Vapor, Xantid Swarm /PoN or even a Slaughter Pact (you'll laugh, but it gets rid of Cursecatcher, which is a really important factor). So the deck's manacurve gets even lower, meaning AdNauseam could be more performing.

Also, concerning the Sideboard: I think that 3x Krosan Grip in sb in addition to the one already MD are just too much. I'm also perplex about the lack of Wipe Away because there are times against certain decks when they have a CB OR a HateBear (sided in), so Wipe Away in here is a hit-both, while with only KGrips you're forced to sb in more anti-hate cards like Slaughter Pact. The decks I'm referring to are the usual crap like Bant which usually board in Gaddock Teeg, and play CB maindeck (well, it seems at least that Bant's trend in these last times is to go more towards the aggroish direction, luckily).

About the basics land in the sideboard: plains or swamp? While plains is really great because it's the powerhouse from which all our 6 chants are cast, against Tempo Threshold and Merfolks, Swamp is more important because is the colour which give access to the real combo cards, and the storm engines. I'm also thinking that there are (few, but still existing) situations when having a Swamp is a good thing, i.e. against Moon effects. But I'll guess it's a risk to be run.


So, i'll hope we can talk a bit about why to sb and not to sb certain cards against these matchups. As for now, by packing green i crafted this sideboard (considering that Stax seems to show up quite regularly in my meta):

1 Plains/Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Chain of vapor
1 Slaughter Pact
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Krosan Grip
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Disenchant
1 Pact of Negation
2 Doomsday

[Pulp_Fiction]

When playing this list:

4x LED
4x Orim's Chant
4x Dark Ritual
4x Brainstorm
4x Top
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Lotus Petal
3x Infernal Tutor
2x Ponder
2x Cabal Ritual
2x Silence
2x Chrome Mox
1x Tendrils
1x Krosan Grip
1x Meditate
1x IGG
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Doomsday

4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
2x Underground Sea
1x Tundra
1x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Tropical Island
1x Island

Sideboard
3x Krosan Grip
2x Xantid Swarm
2x Disenchant
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Doomsday
1x Silence
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Plains

This is how I would board against blue control without CB:

-2 Chrome Mox, -1 Ad Nauseam, -1 KGrip, -1 Lotus Petal and +2 Doomsday, +2 Swarm, +1 Silence

Against Thresh with CB in it:

-2 Chrome Mox, -1 Ad Nauseam, -1 IT, -2 Lotus Petal and +2 Doomsday, +3 Krosan Grip, +1 Silence

I also will intermittently bring in 1-2 Swarms in this matchup. The people I play against expect that I will just bring it in and sometimes I do, but the count usually varies, I just try to mix it up and keep them on their toes so they keep their pointless StPs in!

And if it is against Canadian -1 Bayou and +1 Plains OR you can cut an additional Lotus Petal or Cabal Ritual for the Plains upping land count to 16.

Against Merfolk:

-1 Ad Nauseam, -2 Chrome Mox, -1 Grip, -2 Petal, and +2 Swarm, +1 Silence, +1 Plains, and +2 Doomsday. This is where Swarm shines, they have no possible answer for it

Aggro is basically all the same but it depends on what you expect, just cut Krosan Grip first then any number of Chants (unless you expect Mindbreak Trap) and put in Disenchants and Chains and Slaughter Pact to handle Teeg, Null Rod, Pyrostatic Pillar, etc.

Against combo mirror:

-1 Petal/Chrome Mox, -1 Grip, -1 Ponder and +2 Swarm and +1 Silence. Some people like Grip here to handle Top or artifacts dropped early or on mistake but I don't think it is worth it, the only time you will kill an LED is if they are trying to play 2 of them, you never get priotiry unless they are stupid and play LED then Dark Ritual ... even then, Grip fucks up AdN by adding a bunch of +3 CC to the mix.

Just something of note, emidln mentioned on the stormboards that he always like to up the land count to 16 in the blue matchups. Also something to consider, just try everything and see what works for you. In some matchups you may prefer having 4x Lotus Petals and no Cabal Rituals, this is just how I like to board, there really isn’t a 100% correct way to SB, just what works for you and wins games!

@lorddotm: I like PFH :smile:

This SB is slightly tweaked from last time I played. Running 3x Grip I lost 2 games in a row due to an inability to find the damn thing while looking at a shuffled top 3 around 4 times and a Ponder … so I upped it to 4. Cutting down on the Swarm count, oftentimes the threat is enough and I would much prefer to board in 1x Swarm and 1x Silence against Thresh and having the 7th Chant against Landstill just makes the matchup that much easier.

I currently have a ton of work to do, and I will address the stuff asked a little earlier when I finish.

[Pelikanudo]

Hello all, I'd like to talk to Kim Kluck about his list, which is in my opinion the best one, does anybody meet him or knows his name.
Thanks.

[bulaxas]

i agree, kim list is awesome and i would like to know which card is the 15th in his sb from Magickeller Hannover tournment in september

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29258

thanxs

[Pelikanudo]

I'd like somebody to explain me how exactly to sideboard with the deck ANT from Klim about the link above, vs the different decks in the meta:

canadian
counterbalance decks
landstill
moon /stax
team america
B/W deadguyale
...

thanks

[alfthefurryalien]

Why does he run Grips in his board? does wipeaway not accomplish the same thing without having to being in an extra land and mess with the mana base? If you want to add lands to the SB for some MUs fine but adding green just seems greedy.


Also is the plan if you are running Confidant in your SB to generate card advantage and then ritual ritual cantrip tendrils for a few and then generate more advantage with Confidant and do it again in 1 or 2 turns? If so then i would recommend adding at least 1 more tendrils to the board so you can accomplish this.

[chokin]

Wipe is temporary. Grip is permanent. It's really not a big deal between fetches and Lotus Petal.

One reason to run Confidant I've found is to have them board out their creature hate and then you bring them in. They act as a mini Ad Nauseam and also put a small clock on them. Between attacking for 2 and getting an extra card a turn, you can easily steal game 2.

[alderon666]

Going Underground Sea, Dark Ritual, Duress, Dark Confidant is priceless.

On a dedicated Ad Nauseam it looks fine, everything is optimized for minimal damage with Ad Nauseam. I always wondered why people stopped using it.

[Noman Peopled]

Going Underground Sea, Dark Ritual, Duress, Dark Confidant is priceless.

On a dedicated Ad Nauseam it looks fine, everything is optimized for minimal damage with Ad Nauseam. I always wondered why people stopped using it.
In my experience, Dark Confidant is best against dedicated control, which is nearly extinct. It's great but also slow; it takes full two turns to draw an extra card, and the metagame is ripe with decks that will have attacked with multiple 2/3's or Goyf/Stalker by that time.
Basically, it's a mini-AdN that takes a few turns to go online easily take forever to go online in a metagame where that's not fast enough against many decks.

Plus, Silence got printed.

[from Cairo]

In my experience, Dark Confidant is best against dedicated control, which is nearly extinct. It's great but also slow; it takes full two turns to draw an extra card, and the metagame is ripe with decks that will have attacked with multiple 2/3's or Goyf/Stalker by that time.
Basically, it's a mini-AdN that takes a few turns to go online easily take forever to go online in a metagame where that's not fast enough against many decks.

Plus, Silence got printed.

I think it's boarded for that reason. It wouldn't come in against decks with tons of removal, like versus Zoo or something it's clearly never going to come in. Versus dedicated control it shines, but also decks like Canadian Thresh or Eva Green or something, they might board out a chunk of their limited removal, then it could come in to dig you into a strong enough grip to go off.

[Noman Peopled]

I think it's boarded for that reason. It wouldn't come in against decks with tons of removal, like versus Zoo or something it's clearly never going to come in. Versus dedicated control it shines, but also decks like Canadian Thresh or Eva Green or something, they might board out a chunk of their limited removal, then it could come in to dig you into a strong enough grip to go off.
That's my point, CThresh or Eva Green can both start attacking early. Three turns is a long time against an opponent with Goyfs, Stalkers, and disruption. They'll be happy you're not drawing cards now but later, and swing in.
Sure, t1 it's great ... but maybe you just paid a card to get additional cards a turn earlier (admittedly, quite possibly with one less storm copy necessary).

[Gocho]

Two ANT decks in the Worlds 2009 Top4
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=403168&postcount=1

One UB Mainboard + G sideboard for Krosan Grip, the other UBW Mainboard + R sideboard for Blasts

[K1LO]

Two ANT decks in the Worlds 2009 Top4
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=403168&postcount=1

One UB Mainboard + G sideboard for Krosan Grip, the other UBW Mainboard + R sideboard for Blasts
Splitting between Pyroblast and Red Elemental Blast in a Storm-based deck makes me :cry:. Once a Tempo Thresh-player lost to me (with ANT), beeing unable to give his Nimble Mongoose Threshold for two rounds, because of holding two "useless" REBs in hand. As if anyone is going to set Meddling Mage on Pyroblast or plays Extirpate on it, against any of these two matchups.


Greetz, K1LO

[undone]

how important is the main decked answer to CB?

[emidln]

how important is the main decked answer to CB?

That largely depends on your metagame and then your individual matchups in a room. 2 out of the 3 lists that did well at the Dutch Championships didn't play any solution at all maindeck (sb 3 KGrips if I remember).

[Waikiki]

That's correct, even tho CB was the deck most present at the site.

This sunday I played the hybrid to a 3-1 record ending sixth due to tiebreakers (top4).

My only loss was vs solidarity. I have problems in how to play the match against this. (I had to mull both games because of 0 lands)

[Bahamuth]

Yeah, playing against Solidarity is pretty though. I've played the matchup a lot (actually against other Tendrills combo, but that's almost the same). You need to make sure you are fast enough. You don't want to give them the option to combo in response to a Chant or a win. So you should win turn 1-3 or 1-4 on the play no matter what. If it's going to be unprotected, so be it.

By the way, who played Solidarity?

[Pulp_Fiction]

@waikiki: Hmmm, losing to Solidarity with 6 Chant effects, you must have just had terrible draws. I am guessing you had to mull into keepable hands rather than good ones since the deck was giving you nothing. That blows, but I never found this to be a tough matchup. I think Spring Tide is a lot harder since they have so many ways to find High Tide and are a little more consistent in their combo (and I have seen them go off on turn 2).

Against Solidarity game 1 just look for any hand with Top, Chant, land and work on sculpting a good hand or clearly any savagely aggressive hand with protection. Just wait for the High Tide and Chant them in response. If they counter the first Chant and you have a second you can let the High Tide resolve then Chant them in response to the next spell they play but I wouldn't, I would just Chant them again with Tide on the stack, these decks do crazy things when that shit resolves so just don't give them a chance! In this matchup I much prefer to wait for them to make a move rather than vice versa. I would rather watch them expend their resources into double Chant and then safely combo out the next turn or so rather than be the one to combo out, but it really depends on the strength of your hand, also, don't be afraid to hold back Mystical with Top in play or even MT for Chant on turn 1 just to show them you got something.

Especially if you already have a Chant in hand it makes them think you don't have another and this can have 2 effects: 1) they play right into you expecting just a single chant and you ravage them or 2) it buys you a lot of extra turns while they try and setup with Chant effects and you get to sculpt the perfect hand with Top/cantrips. This is another great matchup where Swarm shines from the board! If they don't force it ... thats basically game unless you really have nothing to do and they have enough time to Cryptic Command in back to your hand then combo off.

[cjva]

wait solidarity out?

Sorry Pulp_Fiction, but that sounds like a realy bad play. The more you wait, the more lands i get to play, and the better my outs to combo off are.

Actually, the only games i lost against ANT and other combodecks is when they are to fast for me to handle. When i have the resources, and we start to battle on the stack, solidarity wins allmost every time. So i totaly agree with Bahamuth on this point.

And about waiting for the hight tide. If your opponent play tide, not in response to you going off, or your chant, its probably a pretty bad solidarity player.

[bulaxas]

dudes i would like your help

i have the deck but i never sideboarded or actually played a lot with how do you side?

i'm playing kim kluck's list....


thanxs

[matelml]

That largely depends on your metagame and then your individual matchups in a room. 2 out of the 3 lists that did well at the Dutch Championships didn't play any solution at all maindeck (sb 3 KGrips if I remember).

3 out of 3 that made T8 did not play bounce/Grp main.

[Piceli89]

wait solidarity out?

Sorry Pulp_Fiction, but that sounds like a realy bad play. The more you wait, the more lands i get to play, and the better my outs to combo off are.

Actually, the only games i lost against ANT and other combodecks is when they are to fast for me to handle. When i have the resources, and we start to battle on the stack, solidarity wins allmost every time. So i totaly agree with Bahamuth on this point.

And about waiting for the hight tide. If your opponent play tide, not in response to you going off, or your chant, its probably a pretty bad solidarity player.

Yes, effectively Chant is quite useless against a (good) Solidarity player because he will be able to leave it on the stack an proceed comboing out your ass. Chant may be effective only when he's low on resouces (i.e., in response to an untap effect with him without the Fow), but in general if the ANT player attempts to play the control role and to stop Solidarity, he either hasn't understood really much who has to attack and who has to stop the other, and will lose.
Perhaps double chant can do something if played at the right moment ( which, i guess, it's when the Solidarity player is resetting/turnabouting lands or when he's drawing..or in any case when he's short on mana to start comboing again ignoring the Chant). But at the time you had double chant, it would have been better to start comboing by yourself.

@the absence of Bounce/Grip: i think a traditional list of ANT w/Duresses can allow itself to not run that slot. With a list ala Pulp Fiction's one, Counterbalance can't be preventively discarded because of the presence of only Chants as protection spells, so i think that slot is kinda needed in that list to not completely roll over to Counterbalance/Trinisphere/(a bit less)Chalice game 1.

@The PFH: I already asked this question but perhaps no one listened to it, but I'd really like if anyone of you is missing Wipe Away. Not obviously because of CB, where Grip is totally superior, but those matchups with CounterTop where you're expecting your opponent to side in also some hate bears. I'm talking aboutProBant, UGW Threshold, and some builds of Landstill. Here I'm a bit perplex because i found myself in times when i board in KGrip and..wtf..on turn2 my oppo drops Gaddock-Fucking-Teeg or Meddling Mage on the table. And i hve no outs.
Considering this Sideboard, which is roughly emidln's one:

SB: 1 [A] Tropical Island
SB: 2 [WL] Doomsday
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [10E] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 [FUT] Pact of Negation
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [LRW] Plains (4)
SB: 3 [SC] Xantid Swarm

How would you side against , let's say, Pro Bant if you know he has CB but you also fear Teeg/Mage coming in? Without Wipe Away, I'm forced to bring in also Chain of Vapor or Slaughter Pact, diluting the combo core for more anti-hate.
Isn't possible to fit in a single Wipe Away for those matchups where you can't know what they'll side in?

I also find Goblin to be a tough matchup. It's stupid how much a fucking Thorn of Ametyst or a Pillar can give them that two turns to do lethal damage with Piledrivers. I know that for Combo Goblin should be a bye, but it's incredible how much they lucksack drawing the (few) pieces of hate they have.
Do you think it's good to keep Meditate in here ? It's too slow and risky. But , without it, also Doomsday gets invalidated. And AdNauseam is a gamble, since they can be fast as hell. The only decent thing is the IGG engine. I'm used to do -2 silences, -1 kgrip and to do +2 CoV and +1 Hurkyl's, but it seems that's not enough.
I don't know, it seems stupid decks wreck me all the time and the tough matchups are perfectly doable.

[spankme]

Hey everyone,

This is kinda 'last minute' message ;) I've decided to play with ANT on tournament tomorrow morning, despite my last bad performance with it (lost to CB/TOP, win to SmallPox, lost to Reanimator, lost to Merfolks, drop). I believe I am capable to play it a bit better today, but I still need your help - on choosing the version I'd like to play. Here are 2 versions I am considering:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29415
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29432

They are destinated for playing in heavy blue (Merfolks, small amount of CB/TOP and Landstills) and aggro environment (Zoo and Goblins) with small amount of random deck (Dredge, RedBurn, Slivers, Reanimator and so on).

My main issues are blue matchups. How do you sideboard with them? What to take out and what to bring in? How does Volcanic Island+Pyroblast works agains Merfolks and their wastelands? Do you go off as soon as possible, or rather wait paying life for their attacks unless you have one or more protection (Orim's Chant?).

And by the way, what do you think about playing double Ad Nauseam? What is the purpose of it? Getting a slight chance to run the combo turn one? I found it limiting my resolved Ad Nauseam draws to 5 live, what sometimes is not enough to combo off lethal Tendrils due to lack of few cards (usually mana).

Additionally, if someone could summarize popular matchups sideboarding techniques I would really appreciate that! :)

[spankme]

Well, nobody responded, so I decided to play the version with 6 Chant effects as I seen it better against blue decks, and to play only one Ad Nauseam.
The results are nearly as bad as on previous tournaments, 2-1-3. Meeting four blue decks gave me 0-1-3 leaving me two wins with random burn decks.

Its unfair how they are suited well under any situation - Cursecatcher can stop Ad Nauseam without protection ant bite my lifes, and if I decide to wait and look for protection they get more and more counters. Volcanic Island + Pyroblast isnt even half that efficient as I hoped it to be due to wastelands.

I guess thats it for me and ANT. I've no idea how to win in my metagame with blue decks (Merfolks, Tresholds, CB/TOPs) so the tournaments are looking like pissing under the wind.
I'll have to drop ANT for something that either can smash blue or simply join it. It was great fun piloting such nice deck, tho.

[Bahamuth]

Well, nobody responded, so I decided to play the version with 6 Chant effects as I seen it better against blue decks, and to play only one Ad Nauseam.
The results are nearly as bad as on previous tournaments, 2-1-3. Meeting four blue decks gave me 0-1-3 leaving me two wins with random burn decks.

Its unfair how they are suited well under any situation - Cursecatcher can stop Ad Nauseam without protection ant bite my lifes, and if I decide to wait and look for protection they get more and more counters. Volcanic Island + Pyroblast isnt even half that efficient as I hoped it to be due to wastelands.

I guess thats it for me and ANT. I've no idea how to win in my metagame with blue decks (Merfolks, Tresholds, CB/TOPs) so the tournaments are looking like pissing under the wind.
I'll have to drop ANT for something that either can smash blue or simply join it. It was great fun piloting such nice deck, tho.

I wouldn't let go so easily. ANT is the strongest deck in the format right now. I suggest you take a look at the Doomsday Hybrid lists that have been posted in this threat earlier. With 6 Chant 4 Top main and something like Xantid Swarm on the board, I'm pretty sure you can get a positive Merfolk matchup, if you practise with the deck enough. I'm pretty sure the only really bad matchup we have right now, is Dreadstill. With the Hybrid with the right list, we have put up test results that were about even against CB/Top and pretty positive against Tempo Thresh.

If your meta is really completely blue, you perhaps should drop this deck and smash them with Landstill or something. If it isn't, don't.

[Gocho]

That give me a question.

Bahamut, what cards go in anf out vs Blue Decks with the Hybrid list?

I understand that extra Doomsdays go in and ANT go out?

[Pulp_Fiction]

Seriously, read the thread. This has been discussed numerous times and you can find these SB answers one page back (pretty far I know). I really wish people would just stop posting unless they have some kind of a vague idea what combo is or how to play it. Let me set up a scenario, say you don't know how to play Belcher, look for the thread .... read, goldfish, repeat. THEN, based on prior experiences with the deck and some knowledge gained from reading and goldfishing, ask questions.

[spankme]

Dear Pulp Fiction,

I think you are missing few facts here.

First of all, the thread is long. Its long, so it is old. It is old, so the lists, sideboards, techs are not corresponding to live, changing meta, new cards, new decks, new trends. This is why people keep asking for lists/sideboards/techs against problematic matchups - because they want fresh answers that works today, not half year ago, before meta shifted with new expansion set.

Secong, the issues we have (personally, I do) are not tied to complete dorkness and lack of knowledge how to launch the combo against the wall. Believe me, I can win against with ANT against my wall with Darth Vader cinema poster 90:10 and even the Force wont help him. What I cant win is blue matchup, and this is something I can really simulate, even with Yoda poster wall facing Darth Vader. This is why we ask for things that can help, because we dont want to loose our standings, time and money to try out every single possible card in the format.

I thought this is what the forum and thread is for. And if everything has already been said in here, shouldnt it be closed?

With regards, spankme.

Dear Bahamuth,

My meta isnt entirely blue, but is blue heavy. Today's tournament took 18 people (we usually get around 24) and there were 4 merfolks, at least one CB/TOP, at least one Landstill, two burn decks, one loam, two burns, one goblins, two zoo's, and the rest I dont know.

Which particular list are you thinking of? What about sideboarding tech's against certain matchups?

[B.C.]

CB decks are always going to be a difficult matchup for ANT. Merfolk, Tempo Thresh, Landstill, etc. are much more winnable, but can also be tough. The fact is, if you are in a really blue heavy metagame, it might be a long day for you.

When sideboarding against blue, it's important to just bring in a small number of key sideboard cards, but not take out too many cards that are important to the combo. I sometimes sideboard too much, and then it's difficult to get acceleration spells or business when you need it. Against CB, I usually replace some number of Duress with whatever extra Silences I have in the board, and bring in 3x Krosan Grips for 1 Duress, 1 IT, 1 Ponder or something like that. Against Merfolk or Tempo Thresh I bring in Silence for Duress and that's it.

[Pulp_Fiction]

When playing this list:

4x LED
4x Orim's Chant
4x Dark Ritual
4x Brainstorm
4x Top
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Lotus Petal
3x Infernal Tutor
2x Ponder
2x Cabal Ritual
2x Silence
2x Chrome Mox
1x Tendrils
1x Krosan Grip
1x Meditate
1x IGG
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Doomsday

4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
2x Underground Sea
1x Tundra
1x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Tropical Island
1x Island

Sideboard
3x Krosan Grip
2x Xantid Swarm
2x Disenchant
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Doomsday
1x Silence
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Plains

This is how I would board against blue control without CB:

-2 Chrome Mox, -1 Ad Nauseam, -1 KGrip, -1 Lotus Petal and +2 Doomsday, +2 Swarm, +1 Silence

Against Thresh with CB in it:

-2 Chrome Mox, -1 Ad Nauseam, -1 IT, -2 Lotus Petal and +2 Doomsday, +3 Krosan Grip, +1 Silence

I also will intermittently bring in 1-2 Swarms in this matchup. The people I play against expect that I will just bring it in and sometimes I do, but the count usually varies, I just try to mix it up and keep them on their toes so they keep their pointless StPs in!

And if it is against Canadian -1 Bayou and +1 Plains OR you can cut an additional Lotus Petal or Cabal Ritual for the Plains upping land count to 16.

Against Merfolk:

-1 Ad Nauseam, -2 Chrome Mox, -1 Grip, -2 Petal, and +2 Swarm, +1 Silence, +1 Plains, and +2 Doomsday. This is where Swarm shines, they have no possible answer for it

Aggro is basically all the same but it depends on what you expect, just cut Krosan Grip first then any number of Chants (unless you expect Mindbreak Trap) and put in Disenchants and Chains and Slaughter Pact to handle Teeg, Null Rod, Pyrostatic Pillar, etc.

Against combo mirror:

-1 Petal/Chrome Mox, -1 Grip, -1 Ponder and +2 Swarm and +1 Silence. Some people like Grip here to handle Top or artifacts dropped early or on mistake but I don't think it is worth it, the only time you will kill an LED is if they are trying to play 2 of them, you never get priotiry unless they are stupid and play LED then Dark Ritual ... even then, Grip fucks up AdN by adding a bunch of +3 CC to the mix.

Just something of note, emidln mentioned on the stormboards that he always like to up the land count to 16 in the blue matchups. Also something to consider, just try everything and see what works for you. In some matchups you may prefer having 4x Lotus Petals and no Cabal Rituals, this is just how I like to board, there really isn’t a 100% correct way to SB, just what works for you and wins games!

Honestly, it gets old. The whole point of reading the thread is to figure out all the ins and outs of a deck. "Outdated" info is not outdated if it makes you a better combo player. Someone who knows how to play IGGY Pop or FT can easily pilot ANT, why, because they understand the nature of storm combo and how it works. Thats what you get from reading a thread. Insight into playing a deck regardless of when it was posted.

But anyway, this was taken from page .... 61, just 1 page back. Quite sad but not suprising :(

[Bahamuth]

My list is simlar to Pulp's. My manabase is 2 Tundra 2 Sea 1 Island 1 Trop 9 Fetch with an additional Trop sb instead of the Plains. I also run Echoing Truth instead of Disenchant and and additional Cabal Ritual instead of te Empty the Warrens I think. Oh, I also play a 3th Ponder mainboard instead of the Grip. I don't like the Grip mainboard unless your meta is really CB Heavy.

Spankme, against Merfolk, Xantid Swarm shines. If there's that much Merfolk in your meta, I'd consider playing 4 SB. They basically can't win anymore if you drop it and don't have an extremely crappy hand.

Also, Landstill is pretty much a bye. They don't have anything against you. You're much better at finding protection than they are at finding Counters. Their Standstills are pretty bad. If you have a Top in play, Standstill is going to be good for you, because that means they won't speel up their clock or anything.

[emidln]

I find this cycle amusing. At first, I would constantly repeat myself. Then I grew tired of it and Pulp_Fiction started repeating himself. After awhile, even he grew tired of it and now Bahamuth repeats himself. Who wants to bet when Bahamuth gets tired of repeating the same information? I have June 2010.

[Wave]

I wouldn't let go so easily. ANT is the strongest deck in the format right now. I suggest you take a look at the Doomsday Hybrid lists that have been posted in this threat earlier. With 6 Chant 4 Top main and something like Xantid Swarm on the board, I'm pretty sure you can get a positive Merfolk matchup, if you practise with the deck enough. I'm pretty sure the only really bad matchup we have right now, is Dreadstill. With the Hybrid with the right list,we have put up test results that were about even against CB/Top and pretty positive against Tempo Thresh.

This statement is not true, look at Stephen's matchup grid from Starcitygames, counterbalance went 9-1 against ANT decks and to my knowledge the Doomsday in the deck won't bring up the matchup 40 %. A Counterbalance in play is just as much a bye to a Doomsday list as to a regular ANT list. Slowplaying them will just increase their chances of getting a Counterbalance in play and going fast is not always possible since you need at least one disruption to get through their counter wall. Merfolk and Tempo Thresh both had good matchups against ANT also according to the grid. The deck might be one of the best decks right now but it's matchup against blue is horrible.

[emidln]

This statement is not true, look at Stephen's matchup grid from Starcitygames, counterbalance went 9-1 against ANT decks and to my knowledge the Doomsday in the deck won't bring up the matchup 40 %. A Counterbalance in play is just as much a bye to a Doomsday list as to a regular ANT list. Slowplaying them will just increase their chances of getting a Counterbalance in play and going fast is not always possible since you need at least one disruption to get through their counter wall. Merfolk and Tempo Thresh both had good matchups against ANT also according to the grid. The deck might be one of the best decks right now but it's matchup against blue is horrible.

I suppose now would be a bad time to bring up that Bahamuth recently top8'd in a field of blue along with a mirror copy of his list and a very similar list (3 ANT in t8) at a similar sized event as the 5k.

In any event, the difference in ability to beat tempo decks (Thrash and Merfolk) between the 4x SDT lists with green for sb non-KGrip spells and other ANT lists is huge. The ability to hang with CB decks like Pro Bant and the misc CB control-combo decks (Painter, Dark Depths, Breakfast) is also greatly increased. We haven't solved Dreadstill yet (probably won't with Ad Nauseam still in the list), but I don't know of any storm combo list that has (that can still post good results against the rest of the field).

[Gocho]

In first place. My apologies.

In second place, I read your post Pulp_fiction, but this is the Pupl_fiction's sideboards options.
Are Bahamut sideboarding equal to Bahamut? I don't know, but Bahamut can says something like:

Exactly like PF in the other page.

As he says, his list are similar without Grip as principal option. You side in +2 Swarm +1 Silence, +1 Plains, and +2 Doomsday vs Merfolk, and he side in 4 Swarm.

My intention was to compare sideboard options, but again. My apologies, you three make a great work improving Storm Combo (stormboards, for example) and I don't want to waste your time asking the same things another time.

The next time, I will ask "Bahamut, are you sideboarding like PF?"

[Wave]

I saw that a couple of pages ago and also this http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=403168&postcount=1 but this is not proof of the deck being good against Counterbalance decks and blue based decks, you know well that one single result is not enough for a statistical accurate analysis. I know Stephens grid is not perfect either but it's the closest thing we have to a statistical analysis of the matchups right now besides the clogged what combo deck is best thread which clearly showed us that combo have a problem against blue based decks. Those top 8 you referred to do not show us how many other ANT decks lost their matches to blue based decks in those tourneys, they only show that some of them slipped through to the top 8. And I bet all of those ANT decks that where paired with a Counterbalance deck in a top 8 lost their match.

[Bahamuth]

This statement is not true, look at Stephen's matchup grid from Starcitygames, counterbalance went 9-1 against ANT decks and to my knowledge the Doomsday in the deck won't bring up the matchup 40 %. A Counterbalance in play is just as much a bye to a Doomsday list as to a regular ANT list. Slowplaying them will just increase their chances of getting a Counterbalance in play and going fast is not always possible since you need at least one disruption to get through their counter wall. Merfolk and Tempo Thresh both had good matchups against ANT also according to the grid. The deck might be one of the best decks right now but it's matchup against blue is horrible.

I have no idea how you could possibly know anything about my test results. I don't care about the results other people get with this deck. In fact, I am pretty sure that most ANT pilots don't fully use the decks potential. I'm not saying I do, but me and my team have a lot of experience with the deck in all sorts of configurations. It's a good thing for me if people belive that just playing a CB instantly wins you games against ANT. I was making my point to convince spankme to not give up on the deck yet. For the sake of the argument itself, I'll respond here too.

First of all, a CB in play is by no means a definite problem. If the opponent does not have an active Top next to it (and chances are decent he doesn't), CB is just like a Chalice, but worse because it will often only counter 3cc (or 0cc for that matter) which doesn't have to be a problem at all. You can't always play around an active CB (the best example being a 1CC at the top and your opponent having a FoW), but it's quite possible.

Then there's the opportunity to race CB. With the hybrid, this doesn't happen often, but it does occasionally. The opponent won't always have a turn 2 CB, so you have a pretty decent timeframe where you can win protected around, say, FoW + Daze, before a Counterbalance lands.

Then there's obviously Grip. Grip does a very good job at removing Counterbalance. In fact, if your draws don't suck, I'm fairly sure you will very often be able to beat CB + FoW + Daze without much problem. Top is crucial in being able to do this, but it can be pulled off just as easily without.

The truly hard situations are those where the opponent has more hate than that. That does happen quite a lot. Stuff you see could be Clique or Needle on Top. Relic barely counts. I'm also not saying you can beat CB every game that easy, but it's very possible to do so. Sometimes you don't have enough time to find Grip + a protected win, sometimes the opponent drops another CB and you're going to have to dig for a second Grip, which doesn't always work.


I saw that a couple of pages ago and also this http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=403168&postcount=1 but this is not proof of the deck being good against Counterbalance decks and blue based decks, you know well that one single result is not enough for a statistical accurate analysis. I know Stephens grid is not perfect either but it's the closest thing we have to a statistical analysis of the matchups right now besides the clogged what combo deck is best thread which clearly showed us that combo have a problem against blue based decks. Those top 8 you referred to do not show us how many other ANT decks lost their matches to blue based decks in those tourneys, they only show that some of them slipped through to the top 8. And I bet all of those ANT decks that where paired with a Counterbalance deck in a top 8 lost their match.

All tournament results can do for you, is give a vague idea of the strenght of a deck. People are way too focused on decks that make top 8. I see crappy decks with crappy pilots make top 8 all the time. I hope you can see my top 8 as maybe an indication that I at least have some clue of what I'm talking about. It shouldn't mean anything else than that. My list was pretty different from the list we discuss here (at least the sideboard was).

The 2 other ANT players in the top 8 were in my team by the way. One played the exact same list as I did (matelml) and the other ran a more traditional version of the deck without Doomsday. The reality is that me and my team are still undecided on wether the Hybrid is actually better than straight ANT. We often choose different versions to play with.
In the top 8, I was paired against a teammate, which I lost (the mirror is really stupid by the way). The other got into the semi's and lost there to Dreadstill, of which I already stated that it's a very bad matchup. The guy who beat me lost to Reanimator, which is a pretty though matchup, but definitely not worse than 50-50.



In any event, the difference in ability to beat tempo decks (Thrash and Merfolk) between the 4x SDT lists with green for sb non-KGrip spells and other ANT lists is huge. The ability to hang with CB decks like Pro Bant and the misc CB control-combo decks (Painter, Dark Depths, Breakfast) is also greatly increased. We haven't solved Dreadstill yet (probably won't with Ad Nauseam still in the list), but I don't know of any storm combo list that has (that can still post good results against the rest of the field).

To get some talk started here at least. I wouldn't say the difference is huge. My Hybrid didn't run Xantid sb, but it did run something else that is better against Tempo Thresh but slightly worse against Merfolk. The straight ANT did run Xantid, but only 2 Top. I think right now, your Merfolk matchups are pretty similar, and his list could possibly be better than mine against them. The strategy we have been using in the straight ANT lists to beat CB, was boarding in 3-4 EtW. This also gives you a very reasonable chance to beat CB.

Concerning the sideboarding, I could maybe post a list of how to board against some common decks with my version of the hybrid. Thing is, it has this card in the board which we board in a lot, and of which it might be better not to post it for the sake of it's effectiveness.

[Wave]

I have no idea how you could possibly know anything about my test results.
I did not in any way degrade your experience or your results with this deck in any way and if it sounded that way i apologize. The point that I wanted to get out there was that the players in this thread has for a while now indicated that the counterbalance matchup is an easy matchup and hence no real innovation has been made in this regard, my point is to disprove this fact to stir up some discussion in this regard so I can continue to read on in silence once more again. And no I have not seen any of your testings what so ever, but the numbers from Stevens article talk for themselves, counterbalance is by no means an easy matchup, not even blue is. But if your testing has concluded otherwise, then that is good news.


First of all, a CB in play is by no means a definite problem. If the opponent does not have an active Top next to it (and chances are decent he doesn't), CB is just like a Chalice, but worse because it will often only counter 3cc (or 0cc for that matter) which doesn't have to be a problem at all. You can't always play around an active CB (the best example being a 1CC at the top and your opponent having a FoW), but it's quite possible. I do not agree that it might not be a problem if the opponent have a Counterbalance in play without a top in play, even if it is a blind counterbalance it doesn’t matter if he has a land, a cc1 or cc2, all of them matters if you have to combo off, either you need Cabal or dark ritual or you need LED/petal to go of, backed up with a Force or Daze and it can be crippling.


Then there's obviously Grip. Grip does a very good job at removing Counterbalance. In fact, if your draws don't suck, I'm fairly sure you will very often be able to beat CB + FoW + Daze without much problem. Top is crucial in being able to do this, but it can be pulled off just as easily without. Grip is of course the common way of dealing with counterbalance, but it will often not deal with the other hate they bring in, I am going back and forth with this one since they often have time to set up a Clique to save them with it in play, but of course not always. My angle on this has been on using 3 Engineered Explosives main and it worked fine in those matchups.


All tournament results can do for you, is give a vague idea of the strenght of a deck. People are way too focused on decks that make top 8. I see crappy decks with crappy pilots make top 8 all the time. I hope you can see my top 8 as maybe an indication that I at least have some clue of what I'm talking about. It shouldn't mean anything else than that. My list was pretty different from the list we discuss here (at least the sideboard was).
As I said I respect your experience with the deck and I congratulate your top 8 finishes, my answer on this was directed towards emidln stating the obvious that ANT has made some top 8s before (yet again I also respect your experience with the deck, just to claify this).


The strategy we have been using in the straight ANT lists to beat CB, was boarding in 3-4 EtW. This also gives you a very reasonable chance to beat CB.
This is exactly what I was looking after, some innovation that might be useful. I have also been using this strategy, and those that I have tested against (non counterbalance players though) have said that they are totally afraid of me using the red little men because they never know what to counter or what to answer. My problem with this strategy has been the manabase that has been crippled by having to be able to produce 4 different colors of mana (Chant, EtW, Rituals and blue cantrips).

[Bahamuth]

I did not in any way degrade your experience or your results with this deck in any way and if it sounded that way i apologize. The point that I wanted to get out there was that the players in this thread has for a while now indicated that the counterbalance matchup is an easy matchup and hence no real innovation has been made in this regard, my point is to disprove this fact to stir up some discussion in this regard so I can continue to read on in silence once more again. And no I have not seen any of your testings what so ever, but the numbers from Stevens article talk for themselves, counterbalance is by no means an easy matchup, not even blue is. But if your testing has concluded otherwise, then that is good news.

I don't think any ANT player with half a brain would say that CB is an easy matchup. I was saying that, with the right main and sideboard, we can push the matchup to close to even, which is pretty big already. Other than that, I can see your point. I wouldn't say the numbers from Stevens article talk for themselves though. It's highly dependant on what the lists that were used are, and who piloted what deck.


I do not agree that it might not be a problem if the opponent have a Counterbalance in play without a top in play, even if it is a blind counterbalance it doesn’t matter if he has a land, a cc1 or cc2, all of them matters if you have to combo off, either you need Cabal or dark ritual or you need LED/petal to go of, backed up with a Force or Daze and it can be crippling.

You're right, it's quite likely you just lose to it. But what I was saying, is that it's by no means impossible to combo through a blind CB.


Grip is of course the common way of dealing with counterbalance, but it will often not deal with the other hate they bring in, I am going back and forth with this one since they often have time to set up a Clique to save them with it in play, but of course not always. My angle on this has been on using 3 Engineered Explosives main and it worked fine in those matchups.

Luckily most Cb lists don't run any really dangerous hate like Clique in their sideboard. You usually just have to deal with CB + some counters.

Are you saying you're running EE in ANT? How's that working out for you?




This is exactly what I was looking after, some innovation that might be useful. I have also been using this strategy, and those that I have tested against (non counterbalance players though) have said that they are totally afraid of me using the red little men because they never know what to counter or what to answer. My problem with this strategy has been the manabase that has been crippled by having to be able to produce 3 different colors of mana, but it should be solvable in some way by running a volcanic in the sideboard.

Yeah, we run a Volcanic in the sideboard. The results we got with this strategy are all right. I don't think they are as good as the Top + Grip strategy, but it's good enough if you want to run straight ANT because of the rest of the meta.

[Wave]

Actually EE have been working out pretty well, they might be a turn slower than grip but the blowing up of Goyf and Counterbalance at the same time makes up for it. Against non Counterbalance control decks they tend to give you some breathing room when they blow up gooses, goyfs and dreadnoughts, although you’d rather have another anti FoW card in hand instead in those matchups. They can give you a fighting chance against Stax and Dragon stompy pre board, although it is not enough to make them winnable, but they have saved me a couple of times. They are a dead draw against agro decks such as Zoo and goblins, but often you don’t care since you should run them over anyway. The biggest problem with the card is that you cannot search for them with your tutors, and because of this you some times don’t find them in time. So I usually side in one extra Grip against the Counterbalance matchups. I am running 3 instead of a bounce spell in the main board together with 6 Chant effects and only 3 Cabal rituals. In conclusions they are good against your worst matchups but worst against your good matchups.

On the Solidarity matchup, in my meta there are two solidarity players and I have never lost a single match playing against them, I have lost a single game but not a 2 out of 3 match. I run 4 Defence Grid in the sideboard, and I know they have been bashed in another thread because you can’t cast mystical or brainstorm in opponents endstep, but they are fantastic against Tempo Thresh and other non Counterbalance decks, and I probably don’t have to mention their value in the Solidarity matchup.

[Piceli89]

Actually EE have been working out pretty well, they might be a turn slower than grip but the blowing up of Goyf and Counterbalance at the same time makes up for it. Against non Counterbalance control decks they tend to give you some breathing room when they blow up gooses, goyfs and dreadnoughts, although you’d rather have another anti FoW card in hand instead in those matchups. They can give you a fighting chance against Stax and Dragon stompy pre board, although it is not enough to make them winnable, but they have saved me a couple of times. They are a dead draw against agro decks such as Zoo and goblins, but often you don’t care since you should run them over anyway. The biggest problem with the card is that you cannot search for them with your tutors, and because of this you some times don’t find them in time. So I usually side in one extra Grip against the Counterbalance matchups. I am running 3 instead of a bounce spell in the main board together with 6 Chant effects and only 3 Cabal rituals. In conclusions they are good against your worst matchups but worst against your good matchups.

On the Solidarity matchup, in my meta there are two solidarity players and I have never lost a single match playing against them, I have lost a single game but not a 2 out of 3 match. I run 4 Defence Grid in the sideboard, and I know they have been bashed in another thread because you can’t cast mystical or brainstorm in opponents endstep, but they are fantastic against Tempo Thresh and other non Counterbalance decks, and I probably don’t have to mention their value in the Solidarity matchup.

I think you're playing ANT slightly in a wrong way. Defense grid, really? In a deck that's supposed to live and die in the opponent turn when you use to Brainstorm, Mystical tutor, bounce/break their hate cards, or even go AdNauseam? I don't get it. This deck should work ala Tempo Threshold, spretty much staying mana open to sculpt your hand and Topping (if you're running a Hybridish version). I think it's a justified bashing, because really, against TT you don't need that stuff to fight against it. This deck runs 4 to 6 chants for a reason. With the Hybrid version, Tempo Threshold is an even to favorable matchup if you can play it wisely.

Also, Engineered Explosives is pretty meh, you have to spend 4 mana (2 in the case of Chalice, ok) in your turn to blow up the pesky things (Counterbalance most of all), and they can go around it. Sorcery-speed costy solutions are << to Wipe Away or Grip, which are pretty much uncounterable and usually unexpected.
Plus, EE can't get rid of Gaddock Teeg.

[Bahamuth]

I think you're playing ANT slightly in a wrong way. Defense grid, really? In a deck that's supposed to live and die in the opponent turn when you use to Brainstorm, Mystical tutor, bounce/break their hate cards, or even go AdNauseam? I don't get it. This deck should work ala Tempo Threshold, spretty much staying mana open to sculpt your hand and Topping (if you're running a Hybridish version). I think it's a justified bashing, because really, against TT you don't need that stuff to fight against it. This deck runs 4 to 6 chants for a reason. With the Hybrid version, Tempo Threshold is an even to favorable matchup if you can play it wisely.

Also, Engineered Explosives is pretty meh, you have to spend 4 mana (2 in the case of Chalice, ok) in your turn to blow up the pesky things (Counterbalance most of all), and they can go around it. Sorcery-speed costy solutions are << to Wipe Away or Grip, which are pretty much uncounterable and usually unexpected.
Plus, EE can't get rid of Gaddock Teeg.

Do you realise end of turn Brainstorm is almost always the wrong play? So many people do this wrong.

I'm also not sure about EE. It sounds pretty decent, but i wouldn't run them mainboard I think. And I think Grip would be better in the board. It is nice they are good with AdN as opposed to Grips.