[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

[Waikiki]

I'd prefer instant or sorceries as hate aswell. They can be tutorred for, EE can not.

[spankme]

What is wrong in EOT Brainstorm? Isnt that best time for casting things to look for combo elements? I know brainstorm in upkeep would be better due to 1 additional storm, but ANT plays on low mana resources, that I see one U to be very precious in launching possible combo. Correct me please, if I am wrong.

[jazzykat]

I guess it makes sense but I will ask anyway. Is vendillion clique really threatening for ANT and why?

[spankme]

Because it allows your opponent to insight your hand to see what are you playing, how close you are to final launch, it turns on clock on you by attacking, can delay you significantly sending key card from your hand away, and pre board cant be handled by wipe away (if you play them) because its effect will hit you once more. I guess.

[meanee]

Also instant discard that you can't remove with a duress. Its a hell...

- meanee

[Wave]

Actually in my experience it has not mattered if I play Brainstorm in their turn or my turn, actually the risk of it being countered is the same the second turn so I agree with Bahamuth on that one. If I where playing against some form of black discard I would of course play it in their turn but against blue control I don’t care. I have actually never felt the necessity to play Ad Nauseam in opponents turn (except when I was trying out LED less) since you often need the extra 4 (or so) storm count generated before, bear in mind that a good player is not often just looking at you holding counters, often they hit you with a Goose or Goyf also. If I would play against a rock deck or BW control deck it would be different with the Mysticals, Brainstorms and Ad Nauseam but then you don’t bring in stuff like defense grid. In my experience it has been the best card in the board, if you don’t think so, then don’t play it, but I do not agree with the argument of 6 chant effect being enough, why would then so many ppl. lose against those matchups? And don’t blame it on unexperience, regular ANT is not that skill intensive, play the spell and draw your deck it’s even easier than the old vintage storm decks and they almost played themselves


Wipe Away or Grip, which are pretty much uncounterable and usually unexpected.
Plus, EE can't get rid of Gaddock Teeg.

Since when where Grip and Wipe Away unexpected? How many anti counterbalance effects can a combo player use? Here’s the list, Krosan Grip, Wipe Away, Rushing River, Repel – All at 3 CC – hence a good player would use a Clique or some other 3cc at the top, the other two are chain of vapor and Echoing thruth – and they can easily be answered by a simple Brainstorm.

EE is actually a meta card for me, I don’t know if I’m going to use it in Madrid, it depends on how many Counterbalance and Stax decks I expect to show up. In my testing the EE have done quite well since they work quite good against all the bad matchups and don’t bolt me in the good matchups. The argument of Gaddok Teeg is quite meh… Against the decks that run Gaddok mainly agro decks they go out for something more useful like black pacts. And it should also be mentioned that I run one Grip or some other form of bounce spell in the board to side in along side the EE:s, and as I said it has worked well so far.

[alderon666]

Most of the time I have Brainstorm Dual and Fetchland in hand I just go:
Land, go (EOT Mystical Tutor for piece if I have it)
Fetchland, Brainstorm, put crap on top and shuffle with fetch

EOTing it or playing it on your opponents turn seems situational at best, if you can't have a shuffle effect to get rid of 2 bad cards. Normally even when my hand is packed, 2 of the 3 cards on top might be bad and drawing one on the next turn might no be good.

[emidln]

Most of the time I have Brainstorm Dual and Fetchland in hand I just go:
Land, go (EOT Mystical Tutor for piece if I have it)
Fetchland, Brainstorm, put crap on top and shuffle with fetch

EOTing it or playing it on your opponents turn seems situational at best, if you can't have a shuffle effect to get rid of 2 bad cards. Normally even when my hand is packed, 2 of the 3 cards on top might be bad and drawing one on the next turn might no be good.

If your dual is black, the play fetch->island, go, eot Brainstorm, upkeep Mystical (probably for Dark Rit unless you already have one or your hand is complete garbage, in which case you probably get another Brainstorm) accomplishes the same play while allowing you to have a land with which to go off with on turn 2. In this scenario, Mystical itself is the shuffle effect. This play's only failing is how bad it is against Daze decks. It works with a Dual if your Dual isn't black, but that also leaves you slightly vulnerable to Wasteland.

My willingness to play EOT Brainstorm is very situation dependent. I sandbag them a lot to get bonus interaction out of SDT via LED and Doomsday. That said, one of the punts I see most often is this:

SDT, Brainstorm, Land, Fetch, misc other cards

For some reason, SDT turn 1 so you can play turn 2 Brainstorm in the main phase then fetch (i.e. not looking with SDT in your upkeep) isn't automatic.

[MattH]

That said, one of the punts I see most often is this:

SDT, Brainstorm, Land, Fetch, misc other cards

For some reason, SDT turn 1 so you can play turn 2 Brainstorm in the main phase then fetch (i.e. not looking with SDT in your upkeep) isn't automatic.

Reading comprehension fail on my part, are you saying the punt is doing this, or NOT doing this? I think you mean the latter but I want to be sure.

[emidln]

Reading comprehension fail on my part, are you saying the punt is doing this, or NOT doing this? I think you mean the latter but I want to be sure.

Writing fail on my part. I completely forgot to mention what was wrong before mentioning what to do correctly.

The basic punt is the assumption that you also spin the top turn 2 in the upkeep. It's something I see often at events when watching other people play combo decks. Playing storm is almost always about maximizing your chances of finding the right mix of acceleration/bombs/protection. You do that by cantripping and tutoring efficiently. Upkeep activating Sensei's Divining Top just isn't usually that efficient if you have anything else to do that turn.

[Dilettante]

The basic punt is the assumption that you also spin the top turn 2 in the upkeep. It's something I see often at events when watching other people play combo decks. Playing storm is almost always about maximizing your chances of finding the right mix of acceleration/bombs/protection. You do that by cantripping and tutoring efficiently. Upkeep activating Sensei's Divining Top just isn't usually that efficient if you have anything else to do that turn.

It can be efficient. If you think you are 2 cards down, spinning top can be a manner to line up 2 of 3 cards to go off, and you just may, but that's a clear indicator that your hand lacks tutors and a possible dropped clue for your opponent to go off without abandon or to play a resource/hand disruption game instead of counter disruption.

[emidln]

It can be efficient. If you think you are 2 cards down, spinning top can be a manner to line up 2 of 3 cards to go off, and you just may, but that's a clear indicator that your hand lacks tutors and a possible dropped clue for your opponent to go off without abandon or to play a resource/hand disruption game instead of counter disruption.

Following the qualifications of my statement, that if you have other stuff to do (stuff being Brainstorm/Ponder) it's inefficient, you're absolutely wrong. If you spin top, then draw, then play Brainstorm or Ponder you get to see a total of 4 cards. If you play a fetch on your turn before Brainstorm/Ponder, you see a total of 6 cards. If you draw for the turn, then play Brainstorm or Ponder and later spin top (assuming you can't go off), you have now seen 5 cards. If you break a fetch before spinning the top, you see 7 cards.

5 > 4
7 > 6

[Dilettante]

Following the qualifications of my statement, that if you have other stuff to do (stuff being Brainstorm/Ponder) it's inefficient, you're absolutely wrong. If you spin top, then draw, then play Brainstorm or Ponder you get to see a total of 4 cards. If you play a fetch on your turn before Brainstorm/Ponder, you see a total of 6 cards. If you draw for the turn, then play Brainstorm or Ponder and later spin top (assuming you can't go off), you have now seen 5 cards. If you break a fetch before spinning the top, you see 7 cards.

5 > 4
7 > 6

Ah, I wasn't sure if you meant Brainstorm/Ponder was the 'something else'. Either way, it would depend. If digging for a land drop and not expecting to go off that turn, then I am a little more prone to top beforehand. If digging for a mana source or tutor, no. I am a little more passive with Brainstorm use, as I tend to see it as the only 'out' for anti-discard, on top of Doomsday stack synergies et al.

[emidln]

Ah, I wasn't sure if you meant Brainstorm/Ponder was the 'something else'. Either way, it would depend. If digging for a land drop and not expecting to go off that turn, then I am a little more prone to top beforehand. If digging for a mana source or tutor, no. I am a little more passive with Brainstorm use, as I tend to see it as the only 'out' for anti-discard, on top of Doomsday stack synergies et al.

If you only have one land, topping in your upkeep is still wrong. You should draw your card and Brainstorm so that you see 4 cards instead of only 3.

[NQN]

I´m actually trying out all different approaches on ANT to find the list I like the most and maybe play it at Madrid. I´ve already tested TES, NLS and ANT-DD-Hybrid with quite some sucess, but I never was satisfied with the lists.
Could maybe Bahamuth or someone else post a list with the Empty the Warrens SB-Strategie? I want to test it at the next tournament to find out if it fits me better :) I´d probably start with a straight ANT list with 3 (4?) Tops MD and more Acceleration than the hybrid. Maybe like this:


// Lands
1 [ZEN] Island (1)
1 [R] Tundra
1 [ZEN] Swamp (1)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [R] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [A] Scrubland

// Spells
2 [MR] Chrome Mox
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
4 [6E] Mystical Tutor
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
3 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [M10] Duress
3 [M10] Ponder
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
1 [TSP] Wipe Away

// Sideboard 12 Cards
SB: 4 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 2 [R] Volcanic Island
SB: 2 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 [FUT] Pact of Negation
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [4E] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 [ON] Chain of Vapor

Thanks in advice,
jan

[Dilettante]

If you only have one land, topping in your upkeep is still wrong. You should draw your card and Brainstorm so that you see 4 cards instead of only 3.

Not always, but you are correct that it is mathematically more efficient against most matchups. I am merely pointing at a difference in playstyle... like if you were facing a deck with potential discard capability (Dredge more and more now). Then I would personally be prone to top for a land instead of drawing then brainstorming depending on my read of an opponent in some instances, putting the risk/reward more on the ability to protect from a discard effect than possibly missing a land-drop by only digging 3 instead of 4.

[emidln]

Not always, but you are correct that it is mathematically more efficient against most matchups. I am merely pointing at a difference in playstyle... like if you were facing a deck with potential discard capability (Dredge more and more now). Then I would personally be prone to top for a land instead of drawing then brainstorming depending on my read of an opponent in some instances, putting the risk/reward more on the ability to protect from a discard effect than possibly missing a land-drop by only digging 3 instead of 4.

Topping for more land leaves Brainstorm vulnerable in your hand without digging as far should you not hit your land. You want to see more lands as far as possible against LD to prevent Sinkhole/Wasteland/Vindicate ruining you. The more lands you get, the better developed your position to abuse SDT which makes the matchup much easier.

This isn't a difference in playstyle. This is poor decision making when you're playing combo.

[Adan]

Writing fail on my part. I completely forgot to mention what was wrong before mentioning what to do correctly.

The basic punt is the assumption that you also spin the top turn 2 in the upkeep. It's something I see often at events when watching other people play combo decks. Playing storm is almost always about maximizing your chances of finding the right mix of acceleration/bombs/protection. You do that by cantripping and tutoring efficiently. Upkeep activating Sensei's Divining Top just isn't usually that efficient if you have anything else to do that turn.

Thank you for this post, this will most likely get copy-pasted into the Threshold threads when the timing is appropriate.

I'm not sure whether you already mentioned it but playing Brainstorm during your own turn is actually what people should do. I think there are still a lot of people who are somehow tempted by it's Instant-speed for reasons that are not clear yet...

[MattH]

When people say "spin the top," which ability of SDT are they referring to? Looking or drawing?

[emidln]

When people say "spin the top," which ability of SDT are they referring to? Looking or drawing?

I use this to refer to looking. I use cash in or draw for drawing.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Topping for more land leaves Brainstorm vulnerable in your hand without digging as far should you not hit your land. You want to see more lands as far as possible against LD to prevent Sinkhole/Wasteland/Vindicate ruining you. The more lands you get, the better developed your position to abuse SDT which makes the matchup much easier.

This isn't a difference in playstyle. This is poor decision making when you're playing combo.

Hmm, I almost always activate Top during upkeep, unless I only have 1 land in hand. If my opening hand is: Top, Ponder, land, random cards then I am always going to play the Top first (especially if you don't know what you are playing against) then draw my card for turn and play Ponder.

But, if the opening hand is: Brainstorm, Top, Land, fetch, random cards then I am going to activate Top first everytime. If I have a shuffle effect + an open mana I almost always use Top. I try to see a fresh top 3 as often as I can. With Ponder in hand I will almost always play it first before I look with Top, regardless of mana in hand. This has worked out for me.

When Brainstorm is in hand it really depends on the other cards in hand and if I have a shuffle effect. I usually try to look with Top first, especially if I don't have a shuffle effect, but in the instances where I don't have a second mana drop I will usually cast Brainstorm after I draw, without looking.

The more you play the deck the less confusing it gets, but the whole point of this is to save my cantrip effects until I need them. You never know when +1 storm will have made the difference in the game. Just think a little ahead at what order will let you maximize your chances of seeing the most cards thus giving you the best chance at winning the game. Also, with Top in play I try to save Brainstorm as much as I can. There are numerous situations where you have to put back IGG or AdN but don't have enough mana to cast it, but you have an LED or 2 in hand and had you played the Brainstorm earlier, you would not be winning this turn. Situations like this are what matter, and small plays like adding extra storm with Tops or recognizing IT + DRit chains. Being able to recognize the small stuff like this is essential to being a successful combo player!

[bulaxas]

Dudes can someone help me with the sideboard of the deck? please...

i dont how to side... every time i look at it all the cards seem too good to side out....

by the way this is the list im playing

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29258

thanxs

[Brad Herbig]

So if you have one land, a top, and no cantrips in hand, is it right to top on your second turn upkeep to look for a second land? I would think that digging for more land would be more important than tutoring anything on that second turn. Thoughts?

[Pulp_Fiction]

In general I would do this, assuming I don't have like LED, Rit, Petal, Mystical. So, just a long as there is no other way to abuse the Top I would always activate it with my only land because here is how I look at it: when not activating during upkeep you get to see 4 cards instead of 3, however, you are drawing a totally random card and then activating Top assuming you don't draw what you need and then have to activate it to put the card you need in your hand (assuming you hit it). And a lot of the time it is going to be a fetch so you can't even use the land till next turn unless you want to lose Top.

[emidln]

So if you have one land, a top, and no cantrips in hand, is it right to top on your second turn upkeep to look for a second land? I would think that digging for more land would be more important than tutoring anything on that second turn. Thoughts?

This depends on how critically you need to see another land before your opponent's next turn. Against Eva Green, I would not spin SDT in the upkeep hoping to maximize the number of cards I see. Against Stax or Chalice aggro, I'm very likely to spin the SDT on my upkeep if there is any chance at all that IMS + spell might win me the game. Against blue, I'm usually going to spin the first time in my upkeep and then if I don't find a land, draw my card for turn 3 and spin in my main phase.

[Jaynel]

This depends on how critically you need to see another land before your opponent's next turn. Against Eva Green, I would not spin SDT in the upkeep hoping to maximize the number of cards I see. Against Stax or Chalice aggro, I'm very likely to spin the SDT on my upkeep if there is any chance at all that IMS + spell might win me the game. Against blue, I'm usually going to spin the first time in my upkeep and then if I don't find a land, draw my card for turn 3 and spin in my main phase.

I agree with you on strategy against Eva Green and decks with Chalice, but I was wondering why you choose to top in your mainphase against blue. You're definite not going to draw with a resolved SDT on turn 3 just to hit a land drop on top, that seems horribly inefficient.

Basically, why not wait until their end step? Or does it not matter?

[emidln]

I agree with you on strategy against Eva Green and decks with Chalice, but I was wondering why you choose to top in your mainphase against blue. You're definite not going to draw with a resolved SDT on turn 3 just to hit a land drop on top, that seems horribly inefficient.

Basically, why not wait until their end step? Or does it not matter?

I've been blown out by my opp's turn 3 md KGrip. Mostly doesn't matter, but I'm kinda paranoid.

[Bahamuth]

This depends on how critically you need to see another land before your opponent's next turn. Against Eva Green, I would not spin SDT in the upkeep hoping to maximize the number of cards I see. Against Stax or Chalice aggro, I'm very likely to spin the SDT on my upkeep if there is any chance at all that IMS + spell might win me the game. Against blue, I'm usually going to spin the first time in my upkeep and then if I don't find a land, draw my card for turn 3 and spin in my main phase.

Hm, I don't like that. I personally always Top in my upkeep in this case. I consider making land drops to be much more important than seeing one extra card. The Hybrid can't really win without some land in play (well it can, but almost never does). I can get into the play you describe against blue. I've never done that before though. Might also have something to do with the fact that I'm hesitant to keep 1-land hands against blue.

[B.C.]

I played yesterday at Tom Shea's Dual Lands tournament in Milford, MA. My list:

4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Orim's Chant
4 Duress
1 Silence
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Mystical Tutor
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony

3 Krosan Grip
1 Tropical Island
2 Silence
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Mox Diamond
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Hurkyll's Recall
1 Rebuild
2 Slaughter Pact
1 Infest

Round 1 - Todd w/ Dragon Stompy
Game 1: He wins the dice roll. He presents his deck to me, and I shuffle it once and cut it, then as I'm handing it back to him, the deck kind of falls apart and some of the cards end up face up. We call a judge, and he gives me a warning for looking at extra cards. I feel terrible, and was actually expecting a game loss for this. It was a totally shady thing to do, even though I didn't mean to do it, but at this point I know exactly what he's playing. I keep a hand of 2 Ponder, Island, Tundra, 2 Orim's Chant, something else. I figure I can use the Chants to Time Walk for a couple turns, and Ponder into awesome shit. Unfortunately, on his first turn he goes SSG, Tomb/City, Magus of the Moon. I spend a couple turns Pondering, but don't get anything useful. On his 3rd or 4th turn he drops Trinisphere, and I decide to scoop soon after that so he doesn't know what I'm playing (I had only played Island, Tundra, Fetch Lands, Ponders).
Sideboard: -4 Orim's Chant, -1 Silence, +2 Hurkyll's, +1 Rebuild, +1 Chain, +1 Diamond
Game 2: I keep a good, although not terribly fast hand. It had 2 lands and Hurkyll's, and some business (don't remember exactly what). I do something and pass. On his first turn he goes Chrome Mox, Ancient Tomb, Trinisphere. I don't really care about this at the time, because I figure I can just draw one more land and Hurkyll's him. I draw the third land, he plays a Magus that I don't care about (I have both basics at this point). After 3-4 turns I go for Hurkyll's at his EOT with a clear win on my next turn. Unfortunately he plays PYROBLAST. I was not expecting that. Blown out.

0-1

I thought people were pretty much done with Dragon Stompy, so this is clearly an unfortunate matchup. I also didn't think people sideboarded REBs, so it's doubly unfortunate. I actually don't mind the matchup post board, but a REB certainly can throw a wrench in the gears.

Round 2 - Brent w/ CounterTop Painter
Game 1: He wins the dice roll and plays Volcanic Island, go. I keep the dream hand: Petal, Petal, LED, Chrome Mox, Orim's Chant, Silence, Infernal Tutor. On my turn I draw Dark Rit, making my hand a wet dream. I imprint Chant, Silence, he plays Brainstorm, then FOWs my Silence, I play out the rest of my hand and IT for Tendrils @ 20 without even having to IGG or Ad Nauseam.
Game 2: I didn't see much of his deck, so I don't even know if he's running Counterbalance. I sideboard -3 Duress, +2 Silence, +1 Krosan Grip. He ends up landing a Counterbalance on turn 2, and I MT for Krosan Grip and sit on it for several turns trying to find mana to cast it (notice I forgot to side in Tropical Island). I eventually find a Petal, but by that time he has a second Counterbalance. I try to go off through blind Counterbalance, but my Silence reveals a Top on top of his library. I can't go off through CB @ 1, so on his turn I Orim's Chant him to try to keep him from playing Top. Unfortunately he has the FOW, so CounterTop closes me out, then Grindstone finishes me off.
Game 3: I side in the rest of my Krosan Grips. I have a pretty boss hand, but my Mystical Tutor at his EOT meets a REB, leaving me with like 3 Rits, LED, Petal, etc. I proceed to draw more mana for a few turns while a Goyf plows me like a cornfield. I start playing Chants with kicker on his turn to buy myself time, but the business spell never comes. I get beaten to death.

0-2

This match was very winnable, especially after stealing game 1. It was just a matter of finding one key spell at the right time, which didn't happen. At this point, I'm very much out of contention for Top 8. However, the two guys I rode with are still very much in contention, so I decide to play a few rounds in the loser's bracket.

Round 3 - Greg w/ Survival
Game 1: He wins the dice roll and drops an Aether Vial. I have 2 IT, LED, Petal, C Rit, lands. I nearly give the game away, though. On my second or third turn, instead of playing IT for LED, I play LED first, so then I have to IT for C Rit and pass the turn. At this point he has Vial @ 2 and Survival on board. I am waiting for him to Survival for Gaddock Teeg and Vial him in there. Fortunately, he doesn't have him maindeck, so all my worrying is for nothing.
Game 2: He rips my hand apart with Thoughtseizes and Therapies, then beats me to death with monsters.
Game 3: He rips my hand apart again, but this time he doesn't have much of a clock. I eventually rip Ad Nauseam off the top and go to town. That's the problem with discard, I guess.

1-2

Round 4 - My opponent doesn't show up. The joys of the X-2 bracket.

2-2

Round 5 - Stefan w/ CounterTop
Game 1: I actually have a pretty rockin' hand, but I slow play it a little digging for a Chant. I go through all 4 Brainstorms this game, shuffling after each one (nice). I eventually find the Chant and go off. Turns out he didn't have much of a hand, and was just digging for Counterbalance, which he never found.
Game 2: He starts out with land, Tormod's Crypt. I keep a hand with 2 Krosan Grip, and plenty of mana. He finds and plays a Counterbalance on turn 2-3, which I immediately Grip. After another turn or so I Grip his Tormod's Crypt so I can keep my Threshold, then go off. Always nice to beat CounterTop.

3-2

Round 6 - Jeremy w/ The Rock
Game 1: I win pretty easily after a few turns, just when a Tarmogoyf starts breathing down my neck.
Game 2: I'm very distracted going into this game due to the fact that the guy sitting right next to me was arguing and full-on YELLING at his opponent and the judge. It goes a little something like this: the guy was riffle shuffling his deck. His opponent (who was also a judge) said he was shuffling in a way that made his cards visible to both his opponent and himself. When the guy presented his deck, his opponent called the judge and said that the guy presented a deck that was not sufficiently randomized, so the judge gave him a game loss. True story. I would have been pissed too. Anyway, I mulligan and for some reason keep a hand that's something like Tundra, Tundra, IT, D Rit, Duress, C Rit. Yeah, that's right. Anyway, I get beaten to death by 3 Tarmogoyfs before I find a way to cast any of my spells.
Game 3: I Ad Nauseam early and win easily. Legacy is a game of matchups.

I finish 4-2, which is good enough for 11th place (worst tie breakers of all the 12-pointers). I really like my build of this deck, and wouldn't change a thing. Matchups can just be a bitch sometimes. There was a lot of CounterTop at the tournament, but I feel like that's a winnable matchup. I think I could win 40-45% of my matches against CounterTop. There were also several other people playing combo at the tournament, but frankly most of them were terrible. The guy who made Top 8 was ok, but I don't think he was even packing Krosan Grips in the board, which is a huge mistake. Every other combo player I saw at the tournament was utterly worthless. I blame the World's results.

[CUB3X]

How do you like playing 2 Chomes instead of 3? Did you notice it hindered you at all? I just picked up ANT and im fine tuning right now. Was also why you play Krosan Grip over Wipe Away, I feel like Wipe Away is just strictly better since you dont need to take up another SB slot for Tropical.

[FredMaster]

How do you like playing 2 Chomes instead of 3?Seconded. This looks strange when you play a list without DD.

I feel like Wipe Away is just strictly better since you dont need to take up another SB slot for Tropical.
ANT should be the last deck that has to worry about sideboard slots, man.
The sideboard is at least for my part never something I have to worry about.
That's certainly no argument.

[B.C.]

How do you like playing 2 Chomes instead of 3? Did you notice it hindered you at all? I just picked up ANT and im fine tuning right now. Was also why you play Krosan Grip over Wipe Away, I feel like Wipe Away is just strictly better since you dont need to take up another SB slot for Tropical.

I have no problem running 2 Chrome Moxes instead of 3, but I probably wouldn't have a problem running 3 either. I actually don't like seeing Chrome Mox in my opening hand very much. I'd rather have a land. The only time Chrome Mox is strictly better is during an Ad Nauseam. If this deck was more aggressive and tried to win on turn 1-2 every game, then the Chrome Mox count would probably go up.

In my opinion, Krosan Grip is the only required card for an ANT sideboard. I've tried playing the deck without it, and it straight up sucks. Krosan Grip is superior to Wipe Away because a lot of times you want to kill their Counterbalance NOT on the turn before you go off. If your hand isn't quite ready yet, you will still want to be able to resolve Brainstorm and Ponder, and having a CB sitting on the board is not an option.

[CUB3X]

I'm taking this list to my local legacy tournament on Sunday, I haven't set up a sideboard yet. My meta is a Survival Deck, Boros Wins w/ Iso Chant, Progenitus Threshold w/ Countertop, BW Poxless Box, Landstill, and some other jank decks. What would you guys recommend for sb.

Main Deck

Instants
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Silence
1 Wipe Away
1 Ad Nauseam

Sorcery
3 Ponder
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Duress
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony

Artifacts
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal

Land
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Marsh Flats
2 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
2 Island

[GUnit]

Probably some grips and bounce. Maybe an extra Ad Nauseum against black decks (it's instant, by the way). Perhaps Dark Confidant.

A secondary win condition might not be a horrible idea, or another tendrils.

[NQN]

Against which decks do you side in Doomsday with the pulpfiction-hybrid and what´s going out? I usually take the AN Package(1 AN, 2 Mox, 1 Ponder) out, but what´s next to go out if you want to keep the Chants? Need Answer till tonight ;)

[CUB3X]

Probably some grips and bounce. Maybe an extra Ad Nauseum against black decks (it's instant, by the way). Perhaps Dark Confidant.

A secondary win condition might not be a horrible idea, or another tendrils.

As far as another win condition, what would it come in against, black discard? And I'm assuming the Confidants come in against that too?




I also wanted to hear people's opinions on SDT. I haven't tested it but I would like to hear opinions. If I ran it, it would replace Ponder. Is it worth it or is Ponder better?

[kicks_422]

SDT is required if you're running Doomsday as well. If you're going straight up Ad Nauseam, you should max out Brainstorm and Ponder first before fitting in SDT's.

[CUB3X]

I don't see the benefit of taking anything out for SDTs besides Ponders. Everything else seems essential. Also curious to sideboard strategies for the top decks.

[Rico Suave]

Why are people playing Doomsday?

The deck already has enough ways to generate lethal storm. Another way is simply not necessary, and lists with Doomsday just scream "beware the danger of cool things."

In practice, adding Doomsday creates more problems than it solves. It dilutes the focus of the deck, it forces the use of sub-optimal cards, and it adds more instability to the deck.

Kim Kluck's list is fantastic. Not only does it have a good deal of speed, but it is also resilient, flexible, and consistent. Any problem that Doomsday "solves" can be made up for with other options.

[CUB3X]

I play Kim's list however, I play 4 Cabal Rituals and 3 Infernals over her 3 Cabals and 4 Infernals. I also maindeck a Wipe Away over a Ponder just to have an outs game 1 in case something comes down. I like the list a lot. It works really well for me. I need the wipe away main deck because I have a counter top deck in my local meta.

[NQN]

Kim is a guy ;) How´s the Tempo MU with his list?

[bulaxas]

i would like to know how you side kim's list

[emidln]

The deck already has enough ways to generate lethal storm. Another way is simply not necessary, and lists with Doomsday just scream "beware the danger of cool things."

In practice, adding Doomsday creates more problems than it solves. It dilutes the focus of the deck, it forces the use of sub-optimal cards, and it adds more instability to the deck.

And you know this from testing? Let me help you out with the answer: no, you don't. Do you even understand the Doomsday piles and where to apply them?

We play Doomsday because it solves things that Infernal Tutor->IGG and Ad Nauseam don't already solve.

Issues with tempo decks like Merfolk where, due to their lack of sideboard hate against you, you often face down permission, a quick clock, and graveyard hate. Issues against

Counterbalance decks where anytime a Counterbalance lands, enough time is spent finding a solution to it that Ad Nauseam is worthless and Infernal Tutor->IGG requires one more protection and more mana than either Ad Nauseam or Doomsday.

Situations where we only have one actual Ritual effect complemented by Lion's Eye Diamond. These happen...a lot and really suck if you're playing a list without SDT or without Doomsday because you're left wishing the M10 rules didn't neuter Mystical/LED for you.

Doomsday makes the deck far less one dimensional for 2 slots, both of which are amazing against your worst matchups. It lets the deck ahead as ANT or carefully sculpt a winning without reliance on its life total or the graveyard, unaffected by most hate bears as well.


Kim Kluck's list is fantastic. Not only does it have a good deal of speed, but it is also resilient, flexible, and consistent. Any problem that Doomsday "solves" can be made up for with other options.

Mind sharing how you solved the Counterbalance problem without Doomsday? How about Merfolk? Tempo Thresh? How about when fast aggro boards in TCrypts or Relics because they have nothing else? They can put you on a decent clock (by turn 3 Ad Nauseam is worse than useless) and because they have no real combo hate, they take out your backup option. This happens a ton in tournament play because Storm doesn't have a high enough metagame share to make it worthwhile for most players who are already doing 40-60 or worse.

[B.C.]

I can't speak to what is "better", and neither can anybody else unless they actually have empirical data to show. I can say that I personally prefer a build without Doomsday. I've tested it, and I just prefer to go without it. It's not an easier or harder way to win, it's just different. As emidln correctly points out, it gets around some of the potential pitfalls of IGG or AdN. But as Rico Suave points out (in ironically non-smooth fashion) it makes the deck slightly less predictable. Back when Spanish Inquisition was a viable deck, we had a similar argument about including Belcher. It's pretty much the same debate.

[Rico Suave]

And you know this from testing? Let me help you out with the answer: no, you don't. Do you even understand the Doomsday piles and where to apply them?

We play Doomsday because it solves things that Infernal Tutor->IGG and Ad Nauseam don't already solve.

Issues with tempo decks like Merfolk where, due to their lack of sideboard hate against you, you often face down permission, a quick clock, and graveyard hate. Issues against

Counterbalance decks where anytime a Counterbalance lands, enough time is spent finding a solution to it that Ad Nauseam is worthless and Infernal Tutor->IGG requires one more protection and more mana than either Ad Nauseam or Doomsday.

Situations where we only have one actual Ritual effect complemented by Lion's Eye Diamond. These happen...a lot and really suck if you're playing a list without SDT or without Doomsday because you're left wishing the M10 rules didn't neuter Mystical/LED for you.

Doomsday makes the deck far less one dimensional for 2 slots, both of which are amazing against your worst matchups. It lets the deck ahead as ANT or carefully sculpt a winning without reliance on its life total or the graveyard, unaffected by most hate bears as well.



Mind sharing how you solved the Counterbalance problem without Doomsday? How about Merfolk? Tempo Thresh? How about when fast aggro boards in TCrypts or Relics because they have nothing else? They can put you on a decent clock (by turn 3 Ad Nauseam is worse than useless) and because they have no real combo hate, they take out your backup option. This happens a ton in tournament play because Storm doesn't have a high enough metagame share to make it worthwhile for most players who are already doing 40-60 or worse.

Your bias towards Doomsday has led you to false conclusions. You say Doomsday takes up 2 slots, but this is wrong. SDT is a great card but it is not worth maindecking without Doomsday. As such Doomsday leads you to at least 6 maindeck cards that are sub-optimal.

SDT slows you down, and then you go on to complain that you have trouble with creatures. You run less disruption slots than Kim Kluck's list, then you go on to complain you have trouble with light permission. Why am I not surprised?

If you want a tool against Counterbalance, look at Kim Kluck's SB. Dark Confidant is a beating in that match. Dark Confidant is a great 1st or 2nd turn play that will lead you to victory. The cool part is that not only does it dig for answers to CB, and not only does it load your hand with business and disruption to overwhelm counters, but it makes another option viable - the ability to swing and slow roll your opponent so that you can simply cast a 5-7 storm Tendrils the old fashioned way.

[emidln]

Your bias towards Doomsday has led you to false conclusions. You say Doomsday takes up 2 slots, but this is wrong. SDT is a great card but it is not worth maindecking without Doomsday. As such Doomsday leads you to at least 6 maindeck cards that are sub-optimal.

It seems that a lot of lists on deckcheck.net disagree that SDT isn't worth maindecking without Doomsday. In fact, it appears to be a very common 2-3of in lists found on the first page of the ANT category on deckcheck.net. In the first 30 lists as of today, 12/11/2009, a full 20 of them play 1 or more SDT in the maindeck with 19 playing 2 or more. Strangely, only 7 of the first 30 lists played any number of Doomsday in the main of sideboard.


SDT slows you down, and then you go on to complain that you have trouble with creatures. You run less disruption slots than Kim Kluck's list, then you go on to complain you have trouble with light permission. Why am I not surprised?

Doomsday lists actually have no issue with a fast clock, light permission, and graveyard hate. It would be the standard ANT lists that have these issues. Doomsday fixes these problems and provides a very positive Merfolk matchup.

Further, extra disruption doesn't actually solve the issues that tempo thresh presents. This is why we cut some disruption for more mana and to support an alternate storm engine that would allow us to better develop our manabase vs tempo decks. Extra Duresses and Chants won't help when your manabase is constricted by stifle/waste/cursecatcher/daze. Extra lands and the ability to win when the game is extended is what wins the Doomsday lists this matchup.


If you want a tool against Counterbalance, look at Kim Kluck's SB. Dark Confidant is a beating in that match. Dark Confidant is a great 1st or 2nd turn play that will lead you to victory. The cool part is that not only does it dig for answers to CB, and not only does it load your hand with business and disruption to overwhelm counters, but it makes another option viable - the ability to swing and slow roll your opponent so that you can simply cast a 5-7 storm Tendrils the old fashioned way.

Because attacking into Tarmogoyf and praying your opponent sided out all removal/sower of temptations is a viable plan for a combo deck. (Hint: they don't side the stuff out because most opponents don't have enough cards to side in against storm. Sowers tend to stay in because it will pitch to Force of Will, steal stray Xantid Swarms/Confidants if the game goes longer, and might even attack for 2. Similarly, Swords often stays in because there is nothing better to bring in for it.)

The problem with Confidant against control is that we have no true control decks with Counterbalance in them. Turn 2 Counterbalance still stops storm even if the Storm deck leads with turn 1 Confidant. Worse, the Confidant doesn't actually do anything a few turns later as the opponent still plays creatures. Now you can't attack anymore (probably only dealing 2-6 damage anyway), still have to remove Counterbalance to win, and are giving the opponent more time to find extra Counterbalances or attack you for more further removing the effectiveness of Ad Nauseam.

[Rico Suave]

It seems that a lot of lists on deckcheck.net disagree that SDT isn't worth maindecking without Doomsday. In fact, it appears to be a very common 2-3of in lists found on the first page of the ANT category on deckcheck.net. In the first 30 lists as of today, 12/11/2009, a full 20 of them play 1 or more SDT in the maindeck with 19 playing 2 or more. Strangely, only 7 of the first 30 lists played any number of Doomsday in the main of sideboard.

The lack of Doomsday is not strange.

Like I said, SDT is certainly a great card. It's not a surprise that people run it. However it is worse than Brainstorm and Ponder in a Tendrils deck. As such, some people may find room for 2 or so which is understandable but 4 is way too much search that the deck simply does not need. You end up searching for search, which is pointless.


Doomsday lists actually have no issue with a fast clock, light permission, and graveyard hate. It would be the standard ANT lists that have these issues. Doomsday fixes these problems and provides a very positive Merfolk matchup.

Further, extra disruption doesn't actually solve the issues that tempo thresh presents. This is why we cut some disruption for more mana and to support an alternate storm engine that would allow us to better develop our manabase vs tempo decks. Extra Duresses and Chants won't help when your manabase is constricted by stifle/waste/cursecatcher/daze. Extra lands and the ability to win when the game is extended is what wins the Doomsday lists this matchup.

No, you confuse the use of extra mana with the use of Doomsday. These are not somehow interrelated, they are exclusive.

Further, how does Duress NOT help against Daze?


Because attacking into Tarmogoyf and praying your opponent sided out all removal/sower of temptations is a viable plan for a combo deck. (Hint: they don't side the stuff out because most opponents don't have enough cards to side in against storm. Sowers tend to stay in because it will pitch to Force of Will, steal stray Xantid Swarms/Confidants if the game goes longer, and might even attack for 2. Similarly, Swords often stays in because there is nothing better to bring in for it.)

The problem with Confidant against control is that we have no true control decks with Counterbalance in them. Turn 2 Counterbalance still stops storm even if the Storm deck leads with turn 1 Confidant. Worse, the Confidant doesn't actually do anything a few turns later as the opponent still plays creatures. Now you can't attack anymore (probably only dealing 2-6 damage anyway), still have to remove Counterbalance to win, and are giving the opponent more time to find extra Counterbalances or attack you for more further removing the effectiveness of Ad Nauseam.

Sower is not an answer to a turn 1 or 2 Confidant.

StP is an answer, but:
1) They will draw StP when you don't have Confidant
2) They will not draw it when you do have Confidant
3) You will oftentimes Duress the StP and then play Confidant
4) You will have 2 Confidant where they have only 1 StP
5) They will draw StP a few turns late, at which point the Confidant has already done its job.

It is a classic example of how a threat is simply better than the answers to it.

Lastly, this statement is just false: "Turn 2 Counterbalance still stops storm even if the Storm deck leads with turn 1 Confidant."

Even without drawing into a Krosan Grip with Confidant, you can simply draw a number of spells, cast them into CB anyway, and then Tendrils for the win.

Dark Confidant means you do not need Ad Nauseam, Ill-Gotten Gains, or Doomsday in order to set up lethal storm. It has been such a strong factor in testing vs. CB that it has been unreal.

[Waikiki]

agree to disagree shall we ?

[Pulp_Fiction]

Wow, AdN has certainly sent combo in the wrong direction. You get all these people who think combo is nothing more than: ritual, ritual AdN ... win. Very sad actually, then all the people who act like they know how to play combo.

You know what, ur right. Sensei's Divining Top has no place in combo. It contributes nothing to consistency and slows the deck down. Oh wait ..... we aren't playing Belcher and its not about speed. Please gain experience with the deck before mindlessly posting in these threads. People like: emidln, B.C., Bahamuth, kicks 422, Bryant Cook, and myself have been posting on these boards a long time and play combo regularly. We know what makes a combo deck work.

Now, Doomsday is not for everyone, I understand this. Doomsday is easily the most skill testing card in legacy. There is almost always a stack that gets you out of a situation, you just have to see it. And anyone who thinks relying on speed to win matchups should just be ignored because that is ignorant. Combo, regardless of the build, IS NOT GOING TO WIN ON TURNS 1-3 ON A CONSISTENT BASIS. You will have to mulligan and play against your opponent. There are 2 kinds of combo players, competent pilots and idiots who bitch about the deck not working right. OK, I get it, gain experience with the deck. It is not about speed, you want a fast combo deck, play Belcher, it requires a lot less thinking and is a lot less consistent.

Also, its very sad that people still play Dark Confidant. THE CARD IS AWFUL. You want a card that dies to every form of removal and offers almost nothing to the deck ... play it. This card was run in like ... older TES builds when they needed card advantage. There is a reason people like Bryant Cook, emidln, and myself don't play this card in combo SB, we tested it and its terrible. Xantid Swarm is different, it is not necessary but its really good. If it resolves it makes the mirror just sick and makes Merfolk almost a bye. In the Thresh matchup you don't even have to board them in, just the threat of playing it can mean something.

Honestly, when all the new combo players complain "I can't beat CB" its because they have no idea how to play against it. You want to run Angel's Grace and then side in 3-4 Grip or Wipe Away ... have fun and I wish you luck. Its not about luck or getting good draws, those of us who play combo know AdN is worthless after turn 4 most of the time and Doomsday only requires 2 life to win. Combo is all about having the right build of your deck to win any given matchup at any given time. It has nothing to do with speed, ANT is fast, sure, but consistency is infinitely more important. Those of us who used to play SI, Belcher, and FT can attest to that. Please gain experience with the deck, take it to more than one tournament, then post about your experiences and ask what you could have done to win, chances are excellent that you were in a position to win but just didn't see it.

[Bahamuth]

Like I said, SDT is certainly a great card. It's not a surprise that people run it. However it is worse than Brainstorm and Ponder in a Tendrils deck. As such, some people may find room for 2 or so which is understandable but 4 is way too much search that the deck simply does not need. You end up searching for search, which is pointless.

After saying this about three times now, you haven't given us any reason at all to belive you. Top is not worse than Ponder. Top is not a suboptimal choice. In fact, from a blue players perspective, Top is one of the most dangerous cards in our deck. It is very often the right play to use a FoW on Top. The chances of winning with the Doomsday Hybrid increase enormously if you manage to resolve a first turn Top.

Now, you know that list you're all loving and praising? My team has been running that EXACT mainboad for more than a year now. We know how this deck works. We have tested Confidant, and we know it doesn't work and that it doesn't beat Counterbalance. Although there are definitely some situations where a Confidant will give you an advantage, it will hardly ever win you a game like Grip & Top will, and you have way better options to risk it just getting StP'd.

[johanessen]

After saying this about three times now, you haven't given us any reason at all to belive you. Top is not worse than Ponder. Top is not a suboptimal choice. In fact, from a blue players perspective, Top is one of the most dangerous cards in our deck. It is very often the right play to use a FoW on Top. The chances of winning with the Doomsday Hybrid increase enormously if you manage to resolve a first turn Top.
Top is worse than ponder in non-DD builds, it searches and gives you a card the same turn you play it and top doesn't unless you're playing it past the first turns. As people said Ad Nauseam DDLess builds have to go on turn three or maximum four if the opponentent applies pressure and Ponder is better than top here. I am playing Serum Visions in the top slots atm in my ANT (w/o DD) build.

[Wave]

Wow, AdN has certainly sent combo in the wrong direction. You get all these people who think combo is nothing more than: ritual, ritual AdN ... win. Very sad actually, then all the people who act like they know how to play combo.

This is actually nothing new, when Vintage was the only Eternal format the most common combo win was mana acceleration, mana acceleration, Yawgmoth's Will or Bazaar of Baghdad, Dragon, Dance of the dead and my favorite Illusions, Donate win. Combo has actually never been a hard deck to play if you just had a little practice with the deck. I agree that Ad Nauseam has made it easier to play combo but it's never been that hard to play combo.

[Rico Suave]

Wow, AdN has certainly sent combo in the wrong direction. You get all these people who think combo is nothing more than: ritual, ritual AdN ... win. Very sad actually, then all the people who act like they know how to play combo.

You know what, ur right. Sensei's Divining Top has no place in combo. It contributes nothing to consistency and slows the deck down. Oh wait ..... we aren't playing Belcher and its not about speed. Please gain experience with the deck before mindlessly posting in these threads. People like: emidln, B.C., Bahamuth, kicks 422, Bryant Cook, and myself have been posting on these boards a long time and play combo regularly. We know what makes a combo deck work.

Now, Doomsday is not for everyone, I understand this. Doomsday is easily the most skill testing card in legacy. There is almost always a stack that gets you out of a situation, you just have to see it. And anyone who thinks relying on speed to win matchups should just be ignored because that is ignorant. Combo, regardless of the build, IS NOT GOING TO WIN ON TURNS 1-3 ON A CONSISTENT BASIS. You will have to mulligan and play against your opponent. There are 2 kinds of combo players, competent pilots and idiots who bitch about the deck not working right. OK, I get it, gain experience with the deck. It is not about speed, you want a fast combo deck, play Belcher, it requires a lot less thinking and is a lot less consistent.

Also, its very sad that people still play Dark Confidant. THE CARD IS AWFUL. You want a card that dies to every form of removal and offers almost nothing to the deck ... play it. This card was run in like ... older TES builds when they needed card advantage. There is a reason people like Bryant Cook, emidln, and myself don't play this card in combo SB, we tested it and its terrible. Xantid Swarm is different, it is not necessary but its really good. If it resolves it makes the mirror just sick and makes Merfolk almost a bye. In the Thresh matchup you don't even have to board them in, just the threat of playing it can mean something.

Honestly, when all the new combo players complain "I can't beat CB" its because they have no idea how to play against it. You want to run Angel's Grace and then side in 3-4 Grip or Wipe Away ... have fun and I wish you luck. Its not about luck or getting good draws, those of us who play combo know AdN is worthless after turn 4 most of the time and Doomsday only requires 2 life to win. Combo is all about having the right build of your deck to win any given matchup at any given time. It has nothing to do with speed, ANT is fast, sure, but consistency is infinitely more important. Those of us who used to play SI, Belcher, and FT can attest to that. Please gain experience with the deck, take it to more than one tournament, then post about your experiences and ask what you could have done to win, chances are excellent that you were in a position to win but just didn't see it.

When did I ever complain about not being able to play combo? I've been playing combo since the days of Academy and Necro-Trix in Standard. I've been playing Tendrils lists extensively since the card was printed, which was before the format was even revamped with its own B/R list, and probably before you ever picked it up. Attack somebody else's experience, but not mine.

The reason I was posting in here in the first place is precisely because Kim Kluck's list was so surprisingly good against CB/Top. My testing partner is no slouch in the CB/Top department either, and he was just as surprised as I was. Kim Kluck is excellent at designing decks and this one is no exception.

You can defend Doomsday all day long, but the results back up what I'm saying too. Why are only 7 of the 30 combo decks on deckcheck running Doomsday? Is it because all of them are terrible and just don't know how to play Doomsday properly? Hardly. Why is it that 3 decks in one tournament, which was saturated with CB/Top, ended up with 3 storm lists in the top 4? It sure wasn't because they were playing Doomsday and I'm pretty sure it had a lot to do with their SB Dark Confidants (which I'll get to later).

With that out of way, let's talk about SDT.

The use of SDT is more than just about goldfish speed, which isn't really all that relevant anyway because the deck isn't going to outrace all the 2cc cards that stop it cold (at least not most of the time). Regardless of which turn you win, SDT does slow you down. It has a big impact on your tempo, it makes the rest of your cards a bit slower, and it is very clunky in comparison. There is no denying this.

I love Top and it is very powerful when you have time to set up and sculpt a hand, but the simple fact is Ponder uses 1 mana and Top needs 2 mana to do the same thing. In a highly tempo oriented deck, it is extremely difficult to justify running Top over Ponder or Brainstorm. The real question in regards to SDT is whether the deck *needs* additional search/manipulation beyond 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 4 Mystical, and some set of Infernal Tutors. This is the question that you conveniently didn't answer.

In regards to Dark Confidant, your logic in comparing Xantid to Confidant is...extremely lacking.

"You want a card that dies to every form of removal and offers almost nothing to the deck ... play it"

Using your own words, I'd have to say your argument against Confidant is the exact reason for not including Xantid Swarm.

Dark Confidant offers a lot to the deck. Swarm will do nothing except protect, whereas Confidant will draw you into protection, answers, and business. Confidant will advance your game-plan while simultaneously protecting it, whereas Xantid just protects it without advancing it.

[Elf_Ascetic]

You're all just ranting about how Top costs 2 and all, but you're missing two big things:

First, You don't have to run Top instead of all Ponders, say you run this:
4 BS
3 Ponder
2 Top.

That's a pretty solid list when talking about speed. This list is not very much slower then the regular lists. I think it's good to run 2 tops in a non-DD list. I believe that Top never costs you the turn you need. Top can speed you up: Top in play means an awesome mystical tutor.

Secondly, You can use top MULTIPLE times. Againt Countertop, bant agro, merfolk, eva green, the rock, landstill and even in the mirror, you want to spin top multiple times. Finding double or triple protection is so much easier with one top then it is with one ponder. Against discard, Top is the card that doesn't make you dependent of random topdecks. Ow, and do I need to tell that top is great when facing Chalice or/and Trinisphere?

[Bahamuth]

When did I ever complain about not being able to play combo? I've been playing combo since the days of Academy and Necro-Trix in Standard. I've been playing Tendrils lists extensively since the card was printed, which was before the format was even revamped with its own B/R list, and probably before you ever picked it up. Attack somebody else's experience, but not mine.

The reason I was posting in here in the first place is precisely because Kim Kluck's list was so surprisingly good against CB/Top. My testing partner is no slouch in the CB/Top department either, and he was just as surprised as I was. Kim Kluck is excellent at designing decks and this one is no exception.

You can defend Doomsday all day long, but the results back up what I'm saying too. Why are only 7 of the 30 combo decks on deckcheck running Doomsday? Is it because all of them are terrible and just don't know how to play Doomsday properly? Hardly. Why is it that 3 decks in one tournament, which was saturated with CB/Top, ended up with 3 storm lists in the top 4? It sure wasn't because they were playing Doomsday and I'm pretty sure it had a lot to do with their SB Dark Confidants (which I'll get to later).

With that out of way, let's talk about SDT.

The use of SDT is more than just about goldfish speed, which isn't really all that relevant anyway because the deck isn't going to outrace all the 2cc cards that stop it cold (at least not most of the time). Regardless of which turn you win, SDT does slow you down. It has a big impact on your tempo, it makes the rest of your cards a bit slower, and it is very clunky in comparison. There is no denying this.

I love Top and it is very powerful when you have time to set up and sculpt a hand, but the simple fact is Ponder uses 1 mana and Top needs 2 mana to do the same thing. In a highly tempo oriented deck, it is extremely difficult to justify running Top over Ponder or Brainstorm. The real question in regards to SDT is whether the deck *needs* additional search/manipulation beyond 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 4 Mystical, and some set of Infernal Tutors. This is the question that you conveniently didn't answer.

In regards to Dark Confidant, your logic in comparing Xantid to Confidant is...extremely lacking.

"You want a card that dies to every form of removal and offers almost nothing to the deck ... play it"

Using your own words, I'd have to say your argument against Confidant is the exact reason for not including Xantid Swarm.

Dark Confidant offers a lot to the deck. Swarm will do nothing except protect, whereas Confidant will draw you into protection, answers, and business. Confidant will advance your game-plan while simultaneously protecting it, whereas Xantid just protects it without advancing it.

Please don't use experience as an argument. I don't care at all how long any of the people on these boards have been playing storm combo. It doesn't say anything about how good you are with this deck or what kind of options you have tested.

Please stop praising the dude's list. It's bitter to me. As I already said, we've been running that list for more than a year. There's nothing special about it.

Please don't use deckcheck as an argument. The reality is that Doomsday adds so much difficulty to this deck, that many players (probably including me) are unable to handle it. Numbers on deckcheck don't mean anything. My testing has concluded that most of the lists that we see top 8'ing on deckcheck are crap. This doesn't mean the deck can't win, just that it's a bad version of the deck.

One Top alone let's this deck play the control role extremely well. I don't think there's any deck in Legacy right now, that can outcontrol this deck once it resolves a Top. Top is by no means clunky. The fact that Top sometimes slows you down is completely irrelevant, because there's no difference in wether you win games fast or not if you win them anyway. The lists with Top and Doomsday perform much better against all sorts of blue decks because these lists are slower.

I have already given you a very good reason to run Top over Ponder. There's no questioning that this deck should run 4 Brainstorm. It is the best card in the format, and the card is used best in this deck.

We (at least I, but I thought more people beside me) don't board in Swarm against decks that run removal at all. I don't want Confidant against Merfolk, because I need to be relatively quick in this matchup. Xantid Swarm doesn't get removed because it isn't boarded in against decks that can remove it. You name Confidant as an answer to CB. Pretty much every CB list answers Confidant, either through Spell Snare or StP. You don't want any of those to happen.

[slobad23]

Please don't use experience as an argument...

...My testing has concluded

:-D

[Bahamuth]

:-D

Testing =/= experience.

[Pulp_Fiction]

@Rico_Suave: Sorry, your post was very long and I conveniently forgot to address something, which I shall address now. Yes, ANT needs to run Top. This is the same amount of cantrips that TES runs and I have had consistency issues in the past with that deck (which has more ways to win) just running Ponders and BS. Top is infinitely better than Ponder in any control matchup. If you abuse it properly with fetchlands + additional shuffle effects it lets you do insane things. Also, having Top in play and casting Brainstorm with LEDs and AdN in hand is a win. You pull so many wins out of nowhere if you properly know how to play it, I have won numerous games when I had shit tons of mana + 2 Tops and just shuffled them back and forth into a Tendrils.

Top also helps during AdN, if one is in play or revealed, it always helps Mystical Tutor + additional storm. I have had many a bad AdN reveals where i can only make one blue mana but a lot of black ... no problem with Top. Ritual it out then MT into the win. The hybrids are just as fast as regular ANT lists. They consistently win on turns 1-3. Top may slow the deck down fundamentally by a turn, but I would rather wait till turn 3-4 and draw what I need rather than risk keeping a terrible hand with all acceleration and Ponder. Top makes more hands keepable, almost any hand with land, Top, fetch in it is keepable. It also helps filter your bad draws after a mulligan, Ponder only happens once, Top works every turn.

You totally missed my point about Xantid Swarm. You are relying on Dark Confidant to make a difference in the CB matchup, YOU DON'T HAVE TO DRAW SWARM FOR IT TO BE EFFECTIVE. I play the 7th Chant in the board and after bringing it in I can bring in Swarm, but you don't have to. The threat of not having answers leads your opponents to cut better card and leave in StP just because they can't deal with a resolved Swarm. Also, Merfolk has no answer for a resolved Swarm. Confidant is terrible against Merfolk, kills you almost as fast as the fishies do. But just to be clear, you are not reliant at all on Swarm, it is there for when you need it but you don't even have to draw it. When running Confidant you become reliant on him and after your opponent counters it with Spell Snare (the Hybrid runs 5 2 drops and easily avoids this) or kills it then you are in topdeck mode. Confidant hurts consistency issues and you become reliant on it.

I am not going to discuss Doomsday and how amazing the card is, it has been discussed in depth in numerous different threads; a competent storm player can get the hang of it, its just a matter of putting in the hours, reading the articles emidln wrote, and learning how to play it right.

[miro]

reading the articles emidln wrote

link?
i'm learning to play storm now, and my google-fu is weak

[Pulp_Fiction]

This was in his sig:

http://docs.google.com/View?id=d3hxs7m_16cr3v59c9

There is a link to crafting DD piles in there as well.

Here is the original DDFT list which is a little outdated but the info on how to play DD still applies:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=127049&highlight=doomsday

It is very important to read these, find an updated list of ANT running DD or put one of the old DDFT lists together, and then goldfish the hell out of it till you get it. I actually printed off some of the piles and started looking at hands that I thought could win and then went through the piles to see what worked. Just keep going till you get it.

[Rico Suave]

Please don't use experience as an argument. I don't care at all how long any of the people on these boards have been playing storm combo. It doesn't say anything about how good you are with this deck or what kind of options you have tested.

You make all sorts of implications about my experience, so don't expect that I'll just sit by and ignore them. You can sit here and make all sorts of statements about play skill or experience that you want, but nobody who can think beyond a 10th grade level will take these attacks seriously and it would be best if you left experience and/or play skill arguments at home.

Ironically, the only argument you have used so far is...your own experience. You tell me that my experience is not a valid argument, yet the only argument you can present is your own experience. Perhaps you should reconsider what you're saying because it is very close-minded.

I don't care to discuss childish remarks like these any further. If you have an issue, PM me about it.


One Top alone let's this deck play the control role extremely well. I don't think there's any deck in Legacy right now, that can outcontrol this deck once it resolves a Top. Top is by no means clunky. The fact that Top sometimes slows you down is completely irrelevant, because there's no difference in wether you win games fast or not if you win them anyway. The lists with Top and Doomsday perform much better against all sorts of blue decks because these lists are slower.

Sure Top is great in a control role, but this is not a control deck.


We (at least I, but I thought more people beside me) don't board in Swarm against decks that run removal at all. I don't want Confidant against Merfolk, because I need to be relatively quick in this matchup. Xantid Swarm doesn't get removed because it isn't boarded in against decks that can remove it. You name Confidant as an answer to CB. Pretty much every CB list answers Confidant, either through Spell Snare or StP. You don't want any of those to happen.

I've already explained why a threat is better than an answer. At worst Confidant will trade 1:1 with an enemy card, sometimes he will stay in play several turns and give you an advantage, and sometimes he will win the game by himself. More often than not he falls into the latter 2 categories.

I never said anything about Confidant against Merfolk though.


@Rico_Suave: Sorry, your post was very long and I conveniently forgot to address something, which I shall address now. Yes, ANT needs to run Top. This is the same amount of cantrips that TES runs and I have had consistency issues in the past with that deck (which has more ways to win) just running Ponders and BS. Top is infinitely better than Ponder in any control matchup. If you abuse it properly with fetchlands + additional shuffle effects it lets you do insane things. Also, having Top in play and casting Brainstorm with LEDs and AdN in hand is a win. You pull so many wins out of nowhere if you properly know how to play it, I have won numerous games when I had shit tons of mana + 2 Tops and just shuffled them back and forth into a Tendrils.

I never said Top was a bad card, or that it wouldn't let you win.

However, it's not better than Ponder. Even against control it's much better to cast a Ponder because you have your other mana open to do whatever you please. Your game plan falls into place earlier. You are able to take advantage of tempo and make plays that your opponent simply cannot answer solely because of the timing.

I could go on and on about tempo, which is extremely important in such a tempo-oriented deck, but I think you get the idea.

It doesn't have much to do with consistency. In fact, it's hard to argue that a deck with 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, and 8 tutors is inconsistent. Would more Tops help to create more consistency? Sure, but it's extremely redundant, and like I said earlier you'll just end up searching for more search which is pointless.


Top also helps during AdN, if one is in play or revealed, it always helps Mystical Tutor + additional storm. I have had many a bad AdN reveals where i can only make one blue mana but a lot of black ... no problem with Top. Ritual it out then MT into the win. The hybrids are just as fast as regular ANT lists. They consistently win on turns 1-3. Top may slow the deck down fundamentally by a turn, but I would rather wait till turn 3-4 and draw what I need rather than risk keeping a terrible hand with all acceleration and Ponder. Top makes more hands keepable, almost any hand with land, Top, fetch in it is keepable. It also helps filter your bad draws after a mulligan, Ponder only happens once, Top works every turn.

Like I said, Top is not a bad card. There will be times you'd rather have Top than Ponder, but guess what? There will be times you'd rather have Mons Goblin Raiders instead of either one.

It doesn't matter if there is a scenario where Top is better. What matters is which card is better in the deck.

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=3350


You totally missed my point about Xantid Swarm. You are relying on Dark Confidant to make a difference in the CB matchup,

Who said anything about relying on it? It's just one tool to achieve the deck's goal. It is hardly a crutch for the deck if that is what you're implying.


I am not going to discuss Doomsday and how amazing the card is, it has been discussed in depth in numerous different threads; a competent storm player can get the hang of it, its just a matter of putting in the hours, reading the articles emidln wrote, and learning how to play it right.

I'm not talking about the being able to create a Doomsday stack.

I'm talking about the function of Doomsday in the deck. What does it solve? Being able to win at low life and/or mana? Guess what, when you run Doomsday you end up being forced to run SDT, and SDT will eat up your mana and slow you down so you end up at low life and low mana in the first place.

In a way, it is self defeating. Furthermore, if you run SDT you make one of two choices:
1) You run SDT in place of Ponder
2) You run more search than the deck needs (or wants)

Neither of those are good. Doomsday takes the focus away from being able to generate storm and more into the realm of a fancy but unnecessary trick, and you risk losing because of the danger of cool things. In fact, I'd argue that if Doomsday is really that difficult to play properly, that's a pretty damn good reason in and of itself not to run it in the first place.

What it boils down to is this: does the deck need a 3rd engine to generate storm? No.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Wow, that is seriously some of the worst combo advice I have ever read. Welcome to my ignore list :smile:

[CUB3X]

Not to stir up more arguing but he does make valid points, but can we please stop arguing.

I would like to discuss sideboard options for specific decks.

SB against:

Black Discard(Eva Green, Pox, Homebrew)
4 Confidants?
Additional Ad Nauseam/Tendrils

Progenitus Threshold
Silences
Wipe Away/Krosan


Mirror
Angel's Grace
Maybe Confidants (Maybe not because of life loss)

Survival
Don't think anything is needed, match-up is really easy

Dragon Stompy
Echoing Truth
Hurky's Recall
Wipe Away/ Krosan

Landstill
Same as thresh


Do those look like solid SB choices? I'd like to hear people's opinions and what people found best from experience.

[Bahamuth]

You know what, fuck it. I'm not arguing with you any longer. Please go ahead and keep getting your Confidants StP'd and keep losing to Tempo Thresh because you don't run Top. I don't think you completely see what Top does for you in this deck, and I don't think you ever will.

[Waikiki]

agree to disagree shall we ?

[matelml]

You make all sorts of implications about my experience, so don't expect that I'll just sit by and ignore them. You can sit here and make all sorts of statements about play skill or experience that you want, but nobody who can think beyond a 10th grade level will take these attacks seriously and it would be best if you left experience and/or play skill arguments at home.

Ironically, the only argument you have used so far is...your own experience. You tell me that my experience is not a valid argument, yet the only argument you can present is your own experience. Perhaps you should reconsider what you're saying because it is very close-minded.

I don't care to discuss childish remarks like these any further. If you have an issue, PM me about it.


Ok, I'll continue the argument.

Experiance is an indicator, but it doesn't mean someone is correct. There is no way to prove one person is right on this matter. But that is not the goal either, the goal is to convince people to try what works best for yourself, to help them.

I have experiance with both DDay and non-DDay (similar to kim kluck's list(-1 land, +1 Cabal Ritual) the list Bahamuth was talking about, from our team) and I am non entirely sure which one is best. But I am sure their power level is really close and DDay is something to look into.



Sure Top is great in a control role, but this is not a control deck.


True. But this doesn't mean it's not an advantage being able to play in control mode. Being able to play control; improving your position more than your opponent over time, is an advantage. It doesn't force you in the control mode, although many times you will use it since it is so good in that role. It still is a combo deck though, when you know you must race, you can still race (against zoo gobs for example).




I've already explained why a threat is better than an answer. At worst Confidant will trade 1:1 with an enemy card, sometimes he will stay in play several turns and give you an advantage, and sometimes he will win the game by himself. More often than not he falls into the latter 2 categories.

I never said anything about Confidant against Merfolk though.


Trading 1 for 1 is horrible in this deck. Imagine your opponent was able to trade all their useless StP's, Deed's, Lands, Elspeths, etc for your Brainstorms, Dark Rituals, Infernal Tutors. The enemy card he is trading with was probably a dead card otherwise. I am not saying the card is horrible, but I don't think it is the best option.




I never said Top was a bad card, or that it wouldn't let you win.

However, it's not better than Ponder. Even against control it's much better to cast a Ponder because you have your other mana open to do whatever you please. Your game plan falls into place earlier. You are able to take advantage of tempo and make plays that your opponent simply cannot answer solely because of the timing.

I could go on and on about tempo, which is extremely important in such a tempo-oriented deck, but I think you get the idea.

It doesn't have much to do with consistency. In fact, it's hard to argue that a deck with 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, and 8 tutors is inconsistent. Would more Tops help to create more consistency? Sure, but it's extremely redundant, and like I said earlier you'll just end up searching for more search which is pointless.



Like I said, Top is not a bad card. There will be times you'd rather have Top than Ponder, but guess what? There will be times you'd rather have Mons Goblin Raiders instead of either one.

It doesn't matter if there is a scenario where Top is better. What matters is which card is better in the deck.

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=3350



Well, my experiance is that Top is a whole lot better against decks that have no or not much of a clock. The reason is simple to see: in this case you will have enough mana over the course of the game and won't be able to spend it all on other things. My experiance is also that Ponder is better against decks with a fast clock, so Top isn't strictly better.


Who said anything about relying on it? It's just one tool to achieve the deck's goal. It is hardly a crutch for the deck if that is what you're implying.



I'm not talking about the being able to create a Doomsday stack.

I'm talking about the function of Doomsday in the deck. What does it solve? Being able to win at low life and/or mana? Guess what, when you run Doomsday you end up being forced to run SDT, and SDT will eat up your mana and slow you down so you end up at low life and low mana in the first place.

In a way, it is self defeating. Furthermore, if you run SDT you make one of two choices:
1) You run SDT in place of Ponder
2) You run more search than the deck needs (or wants)

Neither of those are good. Doomsday takes the focus away from being able to generate storm and more into the realm of a fancy but unnecessary trick, and you risk losing because of the danger of cool things. In fact, I'd argue that if Doomsday is really that difficult to play properly, that's a pretty damn good reason in and of itself not to run it in the first place.

What it boils down to is this: does the deck need a 3rd engine to generate storm? No.

This part I believe has some merit. I have said the same things. But you can say whatever you want, the deck works pretty well for me (not much better than the non-DDay list though) so I kindly give you the advice to try it.

Just one thing about your last arguments, I don't think the deck doesn't want more search than 4 Ponder/4 BS/4Mystical. With this configuration I encounter this situation more than feels right: opening hand has mana, lands(, Protection) and just 1 brainstorm/Ponder. The BS/Ponder doesn't find another cantrip/Mystical/IT or AdN and you are waiting while drawing random cards.

[Rico Suave]

RE: Top

If your opponent doesn't have much of a clock, or no clock, you shouldn't have much trouble winning. Sure Top will be better than Ponder in those situations, but the deck doesn't need to be better in those situations.

Ponder is worlds better than Top when under pressure though, and those are the times this deck needs the most it can get tempo wise from its own cards.

"Being able to play control; improving your position more than your opponent over time, is an advantage."

This is not control. This is called developing your resources. Ultimately you are still the aggressor in almost every match. =|

RE: The optimal amount of search

"I don't think the deck doesn't want more search than 4 Ponder/4 BS/4Mystical. With this configuration I encounter this situation more than feels right: opening hand has mana, lands(, Protection) and just 1 brainstorm/Ponder. The BS/Ponder doesn't find another cantrip/Mystical/IT or AdN and you are waiting while drawing random cards."

This is a valid argument. Now how often does this lose the game?

Of course, when playing with more search, I encountered the situation of having too much search, and encountered it more often than felt right.

Regardless of how much search is actually in the deck, there will be times where it shows up too much or too little.

I can't say for certain that no Tops belong in the deck. I feel comfortable saying that 4 each of BS/Ponder/Top/Mystical/IT does not belong. I can also say that 4 Ponder definitely belong before any Tops do.

Doomsday will distort this as previously mentioned. That is why I do not like playing it, as it forces the use of cards that I don't feel are optimal. This is ignoring any sort of problems with the use of the card itself.

[Elf_Ascetic]

This is not control. This is called developing your resources. Ultimately you are still the aggressor in almost every match. =|
Whatever you like to call it, Top does an amazing job at it.
More on point: If you define control as the deck that gets better then the other deck over time, then this is in 75% of the matchups the controldeck.


Regardless of how much search is actually in the deck, there will be times where it shows up too much or too little.
Complete bullshit argument for uhm, really anything. Whatever.


I can't say for certain that no Tops belong in the deck. I feel comfortable saying that 4 each of BS/Ponder/Top/Mystical/IT does not belong. I can also say that 4 Ponder definitely belong before any Tops do.
I think you're gonna be disappointed when you'll test it more. No one here is saying you have to run 4 Top in non-DD ANT. But try two of them, and you'll be fine. I think you cannot know wether ponder #4 belongs in this deck more then Top does. I like seeing Top now and then, so I run two. Three can be done, one too

And please, listen to the guys who do have more experience with this deck and have done more testing, before you keep on being stubborn. Pulp_Fiction, Bahamuth and matelm are all very capable players and really know what they are talking about here.




Doomsday will distort this as previously mentioned. That is why I do not like playing it, as it forces the use of cards that I don't feel are optimal. This is ignoring any sort of problems with the use of the card itself.
Then you're not playing it right. On paper, the addition of DD makes this deck slower. However, you're getting one fantastic solution for that problem: DD itself. I think there is only one valid reason not to run DD in your deck at this point: Not being able to play it. And before you'll attack me because you think this is directed at you: it is not. Not only DD itself, but the dicisions when to play what cantrips are really hard. There no shame in admitting you're not able to play this deck good enough, I for example am sure that I can't.

[JudasKilled]

You know what, fuck it. I'm not arguing with you any longer. Please go ahead and keep getting your Confidants StP'd and keep losing to Tempo Thresh because you don't run Top. I don't think you completely see what Top does for you in this deck, and I don't think you ever will.

Ok I only play storm in vintage , i play aggro in legacy usually. Who the fuck would ever keep there removal in against storm? ever? Burn sure.....swords? fuck no, smother? no......sooooooo kinda a retarded argument and i cant really think someones SB plan when expecting a turn 2 clock without disruption is 2 land a threat and STP there own guy. So outside of G1 why the fuck would non red have removal?


As far as top/vs instant speed you have to consider what your goal is:

I reccomend looking at the diffrences between ad nauseum and like BoB Tendrils in vintage......they both storm but are drastically diffrent decks. Check it out maybe some innovation will occur

[Henrik]

@ Rico Suave

What Elf Ascetic said. You don't have to play 4 tops, you don't even have to modify the list by replacing a playset of anything. I agree with both parts in this discussion to some extent, and my own list is more similar to yours. I don't play doomsday and I also like confidant, even if it's 2 years old tech, I don't care if I appear noobish. I admit that I haven't tested doomsday enough to really know what situations it can save me from, so I won't say anything about that particular spell. It just seems to frickin' hard to me! But so far, I am happy with the list i play.

Still, I replaced the 4th ponder and 4th Infernal tutor with 2 tops, and I really like it. I hardly miss the replaced spells, and when the top do show up, it has helped me in situations where I am in a bad topdeck streak, i.e. I held a hand with 1 or 2 cantrips and mana development and still didn't find anything useful, just ending up with draw go with a lot of mana unused for the turn.

[Elf_Ascetic]

Ok I only play storm in vintage , i play aggro in legacy usually. Who the fuck would ever keep there removal in against storm? ever? Burn sure.....swords? fuck no, smother? no......sooooooo kinda a retarded argument and i cant really think someones SB plan when expecting a turn 2 clock without disruption is 2 land a threat and STP there own guy. So outside of G1 why the fuck would non red have removal?

As an aggroplayer, you should know how much removal is played these days. The Rock for example, will even postboard have 4 Deed and some vindicates left. Countertop will try to board out StP's when possible, but probably has Explosives in either main- or sideboard. Tempothreshold of course has still burn left. It's not that players activily keep removal in, but that it is still left!

And guess what happens G3, when you just won a game on Xantid Swarm?..

[Bahamuth]

Ok I only play storm in vintage , i play aggro in legacy usually. Who the fuck would ever keep there removal in against storm? ever? Burn sure.....swords? fuck no, smother? no......sooooooo kinda a retarded argument and i cant really think someones SB plan when expecting a turn 2 clock without disruption is 2 land a threat and STP there own guy. So outside of G1 why the fuck would non red have removal?


As far as top/vs instant speed you have to consider what your goal is:

I reccomend looking at the diffrences between ad nauseum and like BoB Tendrils in vintage......they both storm but are drastically diffrent decks. Check it out maybe some innovation will occur

Anyone will bring in removal g3 when you lost to a creature g2.

[NQN]

As I never won a game on the back of xantid swarm nor EVER was happy to draw it I cutted it completly. I did the same thing with the DD-Pack as after I play five tournaments with it I used it !0! times and still top8ed all of them (except the last one, where I was unable to draw any FastMana and even lost to goblins...). I´m going back to a faster ANT build with 3-4 tops MD and probably 3-4 Grips in the sideboard.

[The Atog Lord]

This thread has been interesting to examine, particularly the discussion regarding Rico Suave's post.

First, I'm surprised that someone would dismiss Dark Confidant while embracing Xantid Swarm in the same breath. As a control player (Dreadstill), I'm far more concerned with Dark Confidant than with Xantid Swarm. Swarm, as far as I'm concerned, introduces nothing new to the ANT player's situation. I'm fully expecting to be bombarded by Orim's Chants during the game. Fortunately, my best weapon against ANT, Counterbalance, cares nothing about Chant.

On the other hand, the best factor in my favor as a Control player in the matchup is inevitability. If I can drag the matchup out, and make the game go longer, things increasingly turn in my favor. More time means I can get in more damage to diminish Ad Nauseum's potency. More time means I can establish my control engine better, and get Counterbalance online. And Dark Confidant can disrupt my plan of dragging out the game. If ANT is outdrawing me, then time is no longer something I can leverage to my advantage. It gives the ANT player a chance to get ahead and utilize what would normally be a factor in my favor.

Now, as for experience. Of course experience matters. Of course having a good understanding matters. You, as a reader, are more likely to listen to someone who's proven that he knows what he is doing. And likewise, one who has shown himself to do well can speak with more authority than one who has not.

Now, on the matter of Top. It's a great card to be sure. It makes the cut in my Dreadstill deck. If you want to use Doomsday, then by all means it's a fine card to use. If your plan is to drag the game out, it makes subsequent draws better. Though, if your plan against Zoo is winning on the second turn, it won't do much for you. The longer the game goes, the better Top is than Ponder.

[Rico Suave]

Then you're not playing it right. On paper, the addition of DD makes this deck slower. However, you're getting one fantastic solution for that problem: DD itself. I think there is only one valid reason not to run DD in your deck at this point: Not being able to play it. And before you'll attack me because you think this is directed at you: it is not. Not only DD itself, but the dicisions when to play what cantrips are really hard. There no shame in admitting you're not able to play this deck good enough, I for example am sure that I can't.

The only reason for Doomsday is for the following situation:
1) You are at low life
2) Your opponent has available disruption in the grave (so no IGG)
3) You are unable to chant the opponent to make IGG good
4) You have a cantrip available
5) You are unable to produce lethal storm -> Tendrils
6) You are able to produce enough storm with DD to win

6 conditions to make this useful? That is very restrictive.

The unfortunate part is that DD/Meditate eat up slots in the deck that would otherwise go to disruption. By playing DD, you are less likely to set up a Chant -> IGG. By playing DD, you are running more Tops instead of Ponders, so your AN is slower. Your other engines become worse by including DD, so of course DD would look better than it really is in such a deck.

And even then, this won't factor in the number of games lost due to drawing Meditate and having it be useless. Or the times where you'll draw DD and it won't do anything for you. Or the times you will be at low life and lose anyway because you still have to be at 8 life to cast a DD and survive a single Bolt against Zoo.

In regards to Top, trust me I love the card. I play a number of other decks that I have Tops without including a single Ponder, and it can be extremely difficult to justify that even in a control deck. In this deck though, Ponder #4 is better than Top #1. You must strongly consider that the only reason to play this deck is for its incredible ability to generate tempo, and Ponder is strictly better in terms of this.

This isn't to say that Top couldn't find ~2 slots in the deck, as I've said before. It shouldn't be in the place of Ponder though.

[emidln]

Doomsday is better than Ad Nauseam anytime you can cast it at 2 or more life and you have a cantrip + an additional 2-3 mana. It's always better than Ad Nauseam if you have the choice between the two because Doomsday is a guaranteed win, whereas there is a slight chance of Ad Nauseam fizzling.

Why is Meditate useless when you draw it? I cast the card quite a bit and am always very happy with drawing four cards. When I don't want to draw it, I can either ignore it like I might ignore a second Ad Nauseam or I can Brainstorm it away.

[kicks_422]

Back when I had this deck (kind of) built, I used to run straight ANT. Then I opted for a hybrid build with Doomsday. I then dropped the Ad Nauseam and relegated it to the SB to focus on Doomsday. Try playing with it and learning the stacks. The number of shitty situations where you can still find a way to win is amazing.

Ad Nauseam adds so much speed, no doubt about that. But combo should focus on shoring up bad MU's... And that's against anything with blue. Doomsday combo does a much better job fighting through countermagic than AdN combo.

[JudasKilled]

As an aggroplayer, you should know how much removal is played these days. The Rock for example, will even postboard have 4 Deed and some vindicates left. Countertop will try to board out StP's when possible, but probably has Explosives in either main- or sideboard. Tempothreshold of course has still burn left. It's not that players activily keep removal in, but that it is still left!

And guess what happens G3, when you just won a game on Xantid Swarm?..

Ok sure the removal heavy decks like loam and eva green will still have removal.....but lets be honest your match up is allready superior enough not 2 matter. If they seize and hymm sure you lose but ultimetly the deck doesnt put up great numbers and should be a tiny portion of the meta. Besides naya what really runs more then a cpl explosives and maybe plows? nothing and there boarding that stuff out 100%.

Xantid swarm is amasing in vintage because no on runs CB in legacy it doesnt stop there most gamebreaking counter engine you worry about....so I agree its crap.

[Rico Suave]

Doomsday is better than Ad Nauseam anytime you can cast it at 2 or more life and you have a cantrip + an additional 2-3 mana. It's always better than Ad Nauseam if you have the choice between the two because Doomsday is a guaranteed win, whereas there is a slight chance of Ad Nauseam fizzling.

Why is Meditate useless when you draw it? I cast the card quite a bit and am always very happy with drawing four cards. When I don't want to draw it, I can either ignore it like I might ignore a second Ad Nauseam or I can Brainstorm it away.

Here are the conditions you set forth:
1) 2 or more life
2) Must have a cantrip
3) Must have an additional 2-3 mana.

Now consider this:
You have 3 land and SDT on the board.

Your hand is Doomsday and 2 Lotus Petal.

Your opponent is threatening to win next turn with Marit Lage, and you must generate 9 storm for a lethal Tendrils this turn or lose.

After satisfying every condition you set forth, you should be able to explain why Doomsday is a guaranteed win here and how Ad Nauseam is inferior because it might fizzle.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Besides naya what really runs more then a cpl explosives and maybe plows? nothing and there boarding that stuff out 100%.


False.

EE is always kept in, as it is a relevant card at stopping ANT. It can blow up Chrome Mox, stray Lotus Petal and LED, and EtW (although that's not played in almost every build now).

No one would side out EE against you.

[GreenOne]

Here are the conditions you set forth:
1) 2 or more life
2) Must have a cantrip
3) Must have an additional 2-3 mana.

Now consider this:
You have 3 land and SDT on the board.

Your hand is Doomsday and 2 Lotus Petal.

Your opponent is threatening to win next turn with Marit Lage, and you must generate 9 storm for a lethal Tendrils this turn or lose.

After satisfying every condition you set forth, you should be able to explain why Doomsday is a guaranteed win here and how Ad Nauseam is inferior because it might fizzle.
Building the exact scenario when Ad Nauseam is definetly better than Doomsday won't help the discussion. You're definetly most likely to have some more cards (even if useless), or being at 2 life or so (when Ad Nauseam is useless almost as much as Doomsday), or the opponent not being at 20 due to fetches/thoughtseizes/confidant etc.

Let's take something simple. It's g2 against a nonblue deck. You have a Top in play along with 2 lands. You draw Doomsday for your turn and your hand is now DD, LED, 2x Dark Ritual. Your opponent has Gaddock Teeg in play.

I believe the decision between playing DD or not is directly tied to SDT: if you want to play 4 Tops then you should add DD, as it improves the flexibility of the deck a lot.

[Elf_Ascetic]

The only reason for Doomsday is for the following situation:
1) You are at low life
2) Your opponent has available disruption in the grave (so no IGG)
3) You are unable to chant the opponent to make IGG good
4) You have a cantrip or top or next turn available
5) You are unable to produce lethal storm -> Tendrils
6) You are able to produce enough storm with DD to win


Point 1) is like emindl said, not valid.
Ponder 3) is not valid also, if you knew more off the exact lists, you'll notice that DD lists run 6 tot 7 chant effects mainboard. It makes IGG even better.
6) Not a point, When resolving DD storm is no issue anymore.

Point 5 doesn't make any sense, what are you trying to say here? That including DD reduces your chance of a simple win?

You're obviously inexpierenced with DD. If you had done more reading and testing, you would know that DD generaly costs no more mana than an Ad Nauseam does.

Running DD is a very minimal investment, in four slots:
1 DD
2 Meditate
3 en 4 SD Top.
(Jup, I'm advocating a 7 chant non-DDANT list with two tops here, but that's not the point..)

They aren't useless cards. Even Meditate is fine to cast.

When sideboarding, DD even more shines. Piles that win through Teeg or Chalices are no exeption, you just have to know your game.

What are you trying to say here? Summing up some situations where you can win on Ad but not on DD? If so, let me be the first to explain that we actually still run Ad Nauseam, but when possible, we prefer to use another more certain way to win.

I suggest you sleeve a DD-deck up, and just mark the card you would replace from your DD package. When casting DD, just ask yourself "hm, did I rather want a ponder here?".

[Rico Suave]

Building the exact scenario when Ad Nauseam is definetly better than Doomsday won't help the discussion.

Neither will making false statements, like the person I was responding to.


You're definetly most likely to have some more cards (even if useless), or being at 2 life or so (when Ad Nauseam is useless almost as much as Doomsday), or the opponent not being at 20 due to fetches/thoughtseizes/confidant etc.

If you want a full history of the game, here you go.

The opening 7 was crap, so a mull to 6 leaving:
Land, Land, Top, AN, Doomsday, Ritual

Not the best hand, but safer than going to 5.

First turn Land, Top, go.
2nd turn upkeep Top (seeing IT, Petal, Chrome), draw Petal, land, go. EOT Fetch + Top, seeing non-fetchland, BS, and Petal.
3rd turn draw BS, land, go.

On opponent's 3rd turn he plays Hexmage + Depths. EOT I Ritual -> AN, which eats Force, then draw Petal, arriving at the situation described above. The opponent, in this example, was at 17 life from 1 Force and 2 fetches, thus requiring 9 storm.

You'll notice that this hand has no protection, so it went for Ritual -> AN during the opponent's end step, which was countered. It's a shame that Doomsday builds run DD/Meditate in place of where the other build runs 2 disruption, which would have guaranteed an easy victory otherwise.

This game illustrates something else though. As you can see, it is terrible drawing 2 different engine cards, because the deck needs to devote it's 1-shot acceleration into one or the other, and it cannot afford to fuel 2 different engines if one gets countered. All the other cards in the deck are basically 1 mana, with the exception of Infernal Tutor, and are very functional without relying on the 1-shot acceleration.

I have mentioned it before, but I'll say it again: Doomsday takes a much bigger toll on the deck than anybody has admitted in this thread. Everyone thinks that running a Meditate/DD, and throwing in Tops is enough and everything else remains the same.

It doesn't remain the same.


Let's take something simple. It's g2 against a nonblue deck. You have a Top in play along with 2 lands. You draw Doomsday for your turn and your hand is now DD, LED, 2x Dark Ritual. Your opponent has Gaddock Teeg in play.

We can come up with situations all day. Frankly I don't want to go down this path.

If you were running a deck without Doomsday, that DD slot would otherwise be Duress which would (post-SB) be removal for that Teeg.

All you need to do is use Top (or Ponder) to find a single Mystical, Infernal, AN, or IGG to seal the game and win. That is 10 outs in 3 cards, and they have no Teeg so there is no disruption and no pressure at all.

Now DD will directly lead to a win at the moment, which makes it superior than AN in this same situation, but that doesn't prevent the deck from winning even if you're at 2 life. While DD is superior in this situation, it doesn't change the fact the deck would likely win regardless.


I believe the decision between playing DD or not is directly tied to SDT: if you want to play 4 Tops then you should add DD, as it improves the flexibility of the deck a lot.

This is true. If you play 4 Top, I'd argue it's necessary to run DD, as the pitfalls of SDT in this deck are literally the difference between whether your opponent gets another attack phase or not. As such, the SDT using deck *will* run into issues with its life total far more often than a list without SDT, and in those situations it is necessary to play DD.

The problem is it's just circular logic. You can't justify the use of SDT because DD is in the deck, and then justify the use of DD because SDT is in the deck.

*If* SDT is optimal as a 4 of by its own merit, then we have a different story.

EDIT

@ Elf:


What are you trying to say here? Summing up some situations where you can win on Ad but not on DD? If so, let me be the first to explain that we actually still run Ad Nauseam, but when possible, we prefer to use another more certain way to win.

I suggest you sleeve a DD-deck up, and just mark the card you would replace from your DD package. When casting DD, just ask yourself "hm, did I rather want a ponder here?".

I'm only going to say this once:

Do not assume I have never played a DD deck, as the builds I've used are card for card what has already been posted in this thread.

I was saying in that post that his statement was false and I showed one of dozens of situations why it is false. If that is not OK with you then what is?

[Nelis]

If you were running a deck without Doomsday, that DD slot would otherwise be Duress which would (post-SB) be removal for that Teeg.


You're either wrong or mean thoughtseize or I don't understand the context the sentence is in.

[GreenOne]

You're either wrong or mean thoughtseize or I don't understand the context the sentence is in.
Post-SB he sides out duress for bounce/removal.

[alderon666]

The DD builds allows you to filter your deck and build hands that wins through various kind of disruptions. That filtering is complemented by the fact that you only need 2 life to go off with DD.

When you're playing Ad Nauseam you're forced to go off fast because your life total is of utter importance. If you don't have protection to go off before your life total drops too much you have to take a shot.

That is the big difference between the two deck. With DD you can cast Chant/Protection until it sticks and then going off is a simple matter of going through the motions. With Ad Nauseam as your life total drops your chances of winning drop dramatically, and while it's a faster deck against blue deck packing Brainstorm/Stifle/FoW/Daze sometimes things come to a point where you just can't win anymore.

[emidln]

Looking at your game situation, this is what I came up with:

Taking Lotus Petal over Infernal Tutor was a play mistake. Your turn two should have been draw Infernal Tutor because Lotus Petal is...fucking worthless. Turn 3 Infernal revealing Dark Ritual, pass. I mean, I guess you can blame Doomsday because you suck at playing storm, but whatever.

Assuming you, you know, play correctly, this is how you win:

Turn 3: Infernal Tutor for Dark Ritual.
Turn 4:

Hand is: Dark Rit, Dark Rit, Lotus Petal (drawn this turn), Brainstorm (which you talk about in your game situation, but conveniently leave out when you told me what I had to work with), Doomsday, and Ad Nauseam
Board is: Three lands (which I assume can make UUB or UWB), SDT

***Storm Count, Mana After Spell) Spell***
1 Storm, BBBLL) Dark Ritual (if they force you drop Petal and win with AdN)
2 Storm, BBBBBLL) Dark Ritual (if they force you drop Petal and win with AdN)
3 Storm, BBLL) Doomsday for Meditate, Orim's Chant, Lion's Eye Diamond Dark Ritual, Tendrils of Agony (if they force here, you just win the game by playing Petal, Ad Nauseam)
4 Storm, BBL) Brainstorm drawing Meditate, Orim's Chant, Lion's Eye Diamond putting back Ad Nauseam and then Meditate (Meditate is on top of your library) (If they force here, you top into Meditate and just win)
5 Storm, BB) Orim's Chant (they have to force here +1 storm)
7 Storm, BB) Lion's Eye Diamond
8 Storm, BBP) Lotus Petal
*break LED for UUU* (8 Storm, BBUUUP)
9 Storm, BBP) Meditate (tapping SDT to get it)
10 Storm, BBBBP) Dark Ritual
11 Storm, BBBB) Sensei's Divining Top
*Play Tendrils of Agony with 11 Storm*

Pile:

Meditate
Chant
Lion's Eye Diamond
Dark Ritual
Tendrils of Agony

Of course, if you play it properly, you get a free shuffle effect with SDT and more mana on your combo turn so it might not even be this complicated. Strange how playing correctly makes combo easier right?

I guess the moral of this story is that you, like most people, don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

[Elf_Ascetic]

I think there is only one valid reason not to run DD in your deck at this point: Not being able to play it.

[Skeggi]

We can come up with situations all day. Frankly I don't want to go down this path.
Well, any well-developed meta has quite some Gaddock Teegs in the sideboard; if it's not against combo, it's against control decks with EE, Elsepth and Force of Will. So yeah, running into Gaddock Teeg is a situation you have to keep in mind. I know situations in tournaments where a certain Rock player lost against the ANT player because he went off using DD. It happens, it steals games. If you know how, it's very good.

[CUB3X]

@emidln if you wouldn't mind could you post your decklist?

[NQN]

@Emidln: What does your example do against the FoW he mentioned? What if he just forces the DD instead of the Chant lateron?


nqn

[emidln]

@Emidln: What does your example do against the FoW he mentioned? What if he just forces the DD instead of the Chant lateron?


nqn


3 Storm, BBLL) Doomsday for Meditate, Orim's Chant, Lion's Eye Diamond Dark Ritual, Tendrils of Agony (if they force here, you just win the game by playing Petal, Ad Nauseam)

At any time before resolving Doomsday, an enemy Force of Will on one of your spells causes you to play Lotus Petal and then Ad Nauseam. Any time after Doomsday resolves, you can top into SDT and cast Meditate (if they want to force Brainstorm for instance).

I'm assuming we're just playing the standard hybrid list of:

15 Fetches/Blue Duals/Island
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Rit
4 LED
2 Cabal Rit
4 Brainstorm
2-3 Ponder
4 SDT
6 Silence/Chant
0-1 KGrip
4 Mystical
3 Infernal
1 AdN
1 DD
1 Med
1 IGG
1 Tendrils

[Rico Suave]

Looking at your game situation, this is what I came up with:

Taking Lotus Petal over Infernal Tutor was a play mistake. Your turn two should have been draw Infernal Tutor because Lotus Petal is...fucking worthless. Turn 3 Infernal revealing Dark Ritual, pass. I mean, I guess you can blame Doomsday because you suck at playing storm, but whatever.

Assuming you, you know, play correctly, this is how you win:

Turn 3: Infernal Tutor for Dark Ritual.
Turn 4:

Hand is: Dark Rit, Dark Rit, Lotus Petal (drawn this turn), Brainstorm (which you talk about in your game situation, but conveniently leave out when you told me what I had to work with), Doomsday, and Ad Nauseam
Board is: Three lands (which I assume can make UUB or UWB), SDT

***Storm Count, Mana After Spell) Spell***
1 Storm, BBBLL) Dark Ritual (if they force you drop Petal and win with AdN)
2 Storm, BBBBBLL) Dark Ritual (if they force you drop Petal and win with AdN)
3 Storm, BBLL) Doomsday for Meditate, Orim's Chant, Lion's Eye Diamond Dark Ritual, Tendrils of Agony (if they force here, you just win the game by playing Petal, Ad Nauseam)
4 Storm, BBL) Brainstorm drawing Meditate, Orim's Chant, Lion's Eye Diamond putting back Ad Nauseam and then Meditate (Meditate is on top of your library) (If they force here, you top into Meditate and just win)
5 Storm, BB) Orim's Chant (they have to force here +1 storm)
7 Storm, BB) Lion's Eye Diamond
8 Storm, BBP) Lotus Petal
*break LED for UUU* (8 Storm, BBUUUP)
9 Storm, BBP) Meditate (tapping SDT to get it)
10 Storm, BBBBP) Dark Ritual
11 Storm, BBBB) Sensei's Divining Top
*Play Tendrils of Agony with 11 Storm*

Pile:

Meditate
Chant
Lion's Eye Diamond
Dark Ritual
Tendrils of Agony

Of course, if you play it properly, you get a free shuffle effect with SDT and more mana on your combo turn so it might not even be this complicated. Strange how playing correctly makes combo easier right?

I guess the moral of this story is that you, like most people, don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

I did not remember the exact history as it blurred with other games, so I apologize for that. It was the best I could do from memory.

However I do remember having 3 land in play that game and the scenario I gave you only had you drawing 2 land. Looking it over, it's obvious that I didn't draw a Brainstorm on the 3rd turn. It was clearly a land to because otherwise I would have missed the 3rd land drop.

A simple mistake.

Either way, the deck would be short against the Force.

As for something else, I may disagree with you, but I will attack the cards and the interaction of them in the deck. Inciting a flame-war various times through your post is unnecessary, immature, and irrelevant to the validity of the card itself. In short: grow up.


Well, any well-developed meta has quite some Gaddock Teegs in the sideboard; if it's not against combo, it's against control decks with EE, Elsepth and Force of Will. So yeah, running into Gaddock Teeg is a situation you have to keep in mind. I know situations in tournaments where a certain Rock player lost against the ANT player because he went off using DD. It happens, it steals games. If you know how, it's very good.

I agree, Doomsday can steal games that would be otherwise unwinnable.

However, I've already covered this before. Doomsday will also lose games for you too, even if only because of the other cards you're running (like 4 Top) without actually seeing Doomsday.

[emidln]

I did not remember the exact history as it blurred with other games, so I apologize for that. It was the best I could do from memory.

However I do remember having 3 land in play that game and the scenario I gave you only had you drawing 2 land. Looking it over, it's obvious that I didn't draw a Brainstorm on the 3rd turn. It was clearly a land to because otherwise I would have missed the 3rd land drop.

A simple mistake.

Either way, the deck would be short against the Force.

Well, no. If you have Brainstorm, you're not short against Force. I was actually assuming the discrepancy was due to you being on the draw and not mentioning that you found a third land.

If you didn't have a third land, you should Brainstorm main phase with the hope of hitting a mana source/chant effect and then Infernal Tutor into Dark Ritual to setup your third turn. If you have a third land, you get to double up Dark Rit then look again after a shuffle possibly finding more mana or protection.

I'm still not even sure why you'd play so poorly in your original scenario. EOT Dark Rit, Ad Nauseam is a lot worse than mainphase Ad Nauseam. You already had one Lotus Petal so you should be fine on mana assuming at least 6 0cc initial mana sources in the deck (5 remaining). By passing the turn, you're trying to trade extra initial mana sources against their possibly drawing/finding Force of Will, Counterbalance, or other hate. This is a mistake compounding the mistake of taking Lotus Petal.


As for something else, I may disagree with you, but I will attack the cards and the interaction of them in the deck. Inciting a flame-war various times through your post is unnecessary, immature, and irrelevant to the validity of the card itself. In short: grow up.

Learn to play the deck. There is absolutely no excuse for someone giving advice about a deck to make decisions that poorly and then document those bad decisions so as to propagate their own bad habits. Drawing Lotus Petal is simply awful.

tldr; if you don't want to be treated like a scrub, don't post scrubby plays

[Misplayer]

I have very modest experience with storm combo, but I fail to see how Top is a bad card that will lose you games. If you need to go off RIGHT NOW, Top admittedly isn't doing a lot for you, but in all other scenarios, Top gives you some of the best card selection in the game when coupled with shuffle effects. At worst, it turns into another card. It helps you recover quicker from a disadvantageous position when you need protection AND accel, or accel x2, or accel AND tutor - in these situations Top can save you an entire turn.

Again, I don't have a ton of experience with storm combo, but I do have a good deal of experience with SDT, to the extent that I'm so accustomed to seeing 4-7 cards a turn, that seeing only 1 a turn seems incredibly sub-optimal.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Exactly. Please don't quote Rico Suave in the future, he is on my ignore list because everytime I read something he posts, I feel my IQ points dropping and I have already drank quite a few of those away so I have to make them last!

But in the interest of fairness, there is genuinely no good reason to not run Top in ANT. The arguments of: it slows the deck down, it makes it clunky, or I can't play it right, are not very valid. It adds consistency, helps in the control matchups, WORKS MORE THAN ONCE (unlike Ponder), and allows you to play Doomsday which is the most versatile combo card on legacy.

I understand a lot of people can't play it right, and that is fine, but even if you aren't running DD then you can still run Top in ANT, it is damn good, I promise. I have no idea why you would not play it, Ponder is inferior, let me set up a scenario. Your opening hand is: Top, Sea, fetch, Dark Ritual, 2 Petal, Cabal Ritual. You can keep that and reliably find something. Now imagine that scenario except swap Top for Ponder. You are now reliant on the top 3 cards of you library to do something, if you don't find something you are now in topdeck mode.

Now I can already see the arguments against this which are non-sensical and circular: Ponder speeds the deck up (by a turn at most), that scenario is not likely (play combo more than once), Top isn't needed (figured I would throw that in there cause it confuses me and makes no sense), and I can't play Doomsday. Ok, the last one is valid but take some time to learn it. Read emidln's articles and start practicing, you have to be willing to put in the time though to make it work, otherwise you are never going to understand it. DD is well worth knowing how to play and greatly beneficial in the blue matchups, and if you have to ask why, I would highly suggest looking back at the thread on pages 30 and up, it has been discussed in depth.

[Wave]

When you're playing Ad Nauseam you're forced to go off fast because your life total is of utter importance. If you don't have protection to go off before your life total drops too much you have to take a shot.

That is the big difference between the two deck. With DD you can cast Chant/Protection until it sticks and then going off is a simple matter of going through the motions. With Ad Nauseam as your life total drops your chances of winning drop dramatically, and while it's a faster deck against blue deck packing Brainstorm/Stifle/FoW/Daze sometimes things come to a point where you just can't win anymore.

Although this is a valid argument you could just run Angel's Grace and the result would be the same, and Angel's Grace just takes one slot and is a whopping 5 Mana cheaper than the Doomsday Meditate engine thus not bolting you twice during an Ad Nauseam. By the way I don't like the card I am just showing a different way of achieving this.



And please, listen to the guys who do have more experience with this deck and have done more testing, before you keep on being stubborn. Pulp_Fiction, Bahamuth and matelm are all very capable players and really know what they are talking about here.

I think there is only one valid reason not to run DD in your deck at this point: Not being able to play it

This is just ignorant, let's turn this argument around, what you're basically saying is that all those thousands of players that don't play Doomsday are bad players or inexperienced ones. All those old vintage players including me who has played Storm combo since the mechanic was printed is just stupid and do not know how to play magic and our knowledge is not worth a dime since we have not come to the same conclusion as six or seven of the writers on this forum. I am not saying that your conclusions or your results with the deck is a fallacy but as much as those who do not play DDANT has to respect your knowledge you just have to accept that not everyone is getting the same conclusions as you, and it do not have to be because of inexperience with the deck or with lack of play skill



And please, listen to the guys who do have more experience with this deck and have done more testing, before you keep on being stubborn. Pulp_Fiction, Bahamuth and matelm are all very capable players and really know what they are talking about here.

This is Actually true but just dismissing everyone elses test result by stating they do not have as much experience as you have with the deck is just hindering discussion, I bet you do not have any clue about how much experience Rico Suave or any other of the new additions to this thread has with the deck, and thus you can't just dismiss their results.

. If I had more time I would add more to the discussion but right now I have to sleep.

[kicks_422]

I am not saying that your conclusions or your results with the deck is a fallacy but as much as those who do not play DDANT has to respect your knowledge you just have to accept that not everyone is getting the same conclusions as you, and it do not have to be because of inexperience with the deck or with lack of play skill

So, have you or have you not played with Doomsday? Because frankly, if you're a storm combo player and you've taken the time to learn the stacks, I don't see any reason why you wouldn't at least see its merits. You might not include it in your deck because of personal preference, but surely you wouldn't dismiss it if you've actually played with the card.

[NQN]

I tried really hard to win with DD. I really tried to get situations where it wins me the game and Igg does not. I got 1. The Opponent dropped turn 2 Nought+Crypt and I immediatly won with DD on turn 3 but that was really the only game out of ~200 where DD shined.
As I know how hard it is to get into an archetype and how often newcomers doesn´t understand what´s truly important, I REALLY want to like Doomsday after all...But for now I can´t as I just NEVER need it :cry:
I will read the DD-Stacks (again) in christmas holidays and then try even harder to find a game where I need it. I´m gonna let you know if it happened in 2009 ;)


PS:200,yay :P

[badjuju]

I tried really hard to win with DD. I really tried to get situations where it wins me the game and Igg does not. I got 1. The Opponent dropped turn 2 Nought+Crypt and I immediatly won with DD on turn 3 but that was really the only game out of ~200 where DD shined.
As I know how hard it is to get into an archetype and how often newcomers doesn´t understand what´s truly important, I REALLY want to like Doomsday after all...But for now I can´t as I just NEVER need it :cry:
I will read the DD-Stacks (again) in christmas holidays and then try even harder to find a game where I need it. I´m gonna let you know if it happened in 2009 ;)


PS:200,yay :P

Really?

I've only been playing DD for about a month but I find myself using it quite often. If you have a Top out, it's almost like a no-brainer since most of the time you can just cast DD and crack LED in response for UUU to pay for the Meditate. And if you're against things without counterspells and you have extra mana or cards in hand, you can do even more dumb things than that. So in essence, all you need is that BBBXXU and you rack up a free 7+ storm count without the risk of your opponent IGG-ing anything back. You can do the same with a Chanted IGG, but that requires you to have a certain hand (generally with LED or at least a bunch of expendable spells so you can go hellbent). With DD if you have Brainstorm/Top in play you can just go for it, given you have enough mana. This doesn't even count the hands where you have extra cards in hand and can DD -> IGG loop for 10+ easily against anything that doesn't pack counterspells or after a resolved Chant. And then of course there are the post-board piles. Honestly, they're not hard to remember if you just glance over the DD piles and play your matchups. It'll all start to make sense and the piles become quicker and quicker to assemble.

I know there's a lot of discussion about whether or not to include the Doomsday package, but from my point of view you sacrifice two slots of consistency for a powerful alternate engine. Even if you don't know the difficult tricks with the DD pile, it's still a 100% safe plan when you go off versus casting Ad Nauseum, which always has the chance to fizzle. But I'm just wasting my breath here, as it's all been said before. I've tried both out, and I find myself missing DD in straight ANT. Whether or not you think that engine is relevant is up to you, but I've personally found it worthwhile.

[Rico Suave]

Learn to play the deck. There is absolutely no excuse for someone giving advice about a deck to make decisions that poorly and then document those bad decisions so as to propagate their own bad habits. Drawing Lotus Petal is simply awful.


Unfortunately, it seems that you're still unable to avoid acting like a child. I'm not going to let myself get into a fool's argument, as you obviously have the experience there, but I will make a point that is on your level and maybe it will hit home.

If you want to get personal, then let's take a look at recent events.

The top8 at the St. Louis tournament was:
43 land x 2
Aggro Loam x2
Merfolk x2
Zoo
CB

My first reaction was "nobody played combo at this event?"

Then I saw you were there, and failed by killing yourself with Doomsday. Of course you are quick to tell others to "learn to play" but does the word hypocrite mean anything to you? At least you should give more than just a little extra thought to the idea of DD being too difficult for you to play (as it clearly was too difficult for you).

Pearls before swine, as they say.

[kicks_422]

...DD being too difficult for you to play (as it clearly was too difficult for you).

Wow. You're seriously telling him that? So the only reason you can think of why he didnt make Top 8 in that event was because he can't properly play Doomsday?

[Wave]

So, have you or have you not played with Doomsday? Because frankly, if you're a storm combo player and you've taken the time to learn the stacks, I don't see any reason why you wouldn't at least see its merits. You might not include it in your deck because of personal preference, but surely you wouldn't dismiss it if you've actually played with the card.

Actually I am playing the combo every now and then and I played it a whole 6 month a while ago so I know the merits of the combo, and I actually never dismissed the combo, what I am saying is that you cannot dismiss some ones experience right away every time since you do not know the experience of the player, people have done it recurringly in this thread and that is hindering to the discussion. Right now your biggest argument against not playing the combo is play it or you are a bad player, if you have not come to the same conclusion that it beats everything, then you are a bad player. Many of the arguments brought forward against the combo have their merits but you have just met them with, you are a bad player or a bad DD player. I think the combo is good and it solve a lot of situations that the Ad Nauseam and Ill-gotten gains package can't, but it is not the super solution to everything that has been stated in this thread, as an example the package is actually worse against the combo matchup. That is not a small feat since the meta (at least here) consists of at least a fourth of combo decks.

[Elf_Ascetic]

, as an example the package is actually worse against the combo matchup. That is not a small feat since the meta (at least here) consists of at least a fourth of combo decks.

You're having a worse combomatchup with a deck with 6-7 chants and 4 tops?

[Artowis]

Wow. You're seriously telling him that? So the only reason you can think of why he didnt make Top 8 in that event was because he can't properly play Doomsday?

Oh come on, don't be this dense. He was mocking Em's silly 'I'm so fucking awesome with deck' attitude.

[jegger]

Sorry if this post is not about the diatribe hybrid vs standard.
I take away the dust from the top af my ant deck and I'm starting to play it again. I'm looking for new cards to try.

Has anyone tried Carpet of Flowers in the green splash? If yes, with what response? I'm thinking about it in a meta with many tempo decks.

[Nemavera]

Carpet of Flowers is really awesome against blue (especially Tempo-Decks) cause it crushes their mana-denial plan und you can simply set up your game plan by out-controlling them with Chants, Top and DD. At the moment I'm testing it in the SB Xantid Swarm slot, due to all my opponent keeping creature removal against me; it's usually a non-wasteable land that provides whichever mana you need; I really love that card.

[CUB3X]

After looking at the storm piles I'm notincing typically you have you already have roughly 5 spells played before you make a pile since the majority of piles storm for 4-6. Can someone give me a basic rundown of what would go on before making a DD pile. Thanks

[Wave]

You're having a worse combomatchup with a deck with 6-7 chants and 4 tops?

What? Was that a counter argument? Do you think the 6-7 Chant package is a secret tech of Doomsday combo? Regular ANT is playing the same package of disruption, why is this a counter argument? The Doomsday list is packing four Tops and they are at least a turn slower than Ponder which is maxed out in the regular ANT list, and the Doomsday package can't go off until turn 3 and there's the small possibility that a package consisting of 6 mana might make you fizzle during the much faster ANT comboing. That's why the DD lists is worse against combo, that extra turn the tops takes make you vulnerable against Aluren, Enchantress, Painter Grindstone and Ichorid since their combo turn is turn two or three, the ANT matchup is also getting worse since they are a turn faster and also belcher (although Belcher is also hard for the ANT deck)

[emidln]

What? Was that a counter argument? Do you think the 6-7 Chant package is a secret tech of Doomsday combo? Regular ANT is playing the same package of disruption, why is this a counter argument? The Doomsday list is packing four Tops and they are at least a turn slower than Ponder which is maxed out in the regular ANT list, and the Doomsday package can't go off until turn 3 and there's the small possibility that a package consisting of 6 mana might make you fizzle during the much faster ANT comboing. That's why the DD lists is worse against combo, that extra turn the tops takes make you vulnerable against Aluren, Enchantress, Painter Grindstone and Ichorid since their combo turn is turn two or three, the ANT matchup is also getting worse since they are a turn faster and also belcher (although Belcher is also hard for the ANT deck)

Statistically, you are as likely to be able to combo with Doomsday on turn 2 as you are with Infernal Tutor (assuming you played the same number of them). The cheaper mana cost of Doomsday 4-6 on turn 2 is comparable with Infernal Tutor's 7-8 mana when you factor in the additional cantrips necessary for Doomsday to work. If you count pass the turn piles, you are a lot more likely to combo with Doomsday on turn 1 or 2 than Infernal Tutor.

Have you ever actually lost a match to Enchantress? I don't know that I have ever done that playing anything derived from FT and I've been playing the deck for a long time. That deck is glacially slow and has...6 relevant cards, all of which can be bounced or removed unless they have 2 copies of a 4-of in play to protect them.

Trying to blindly go off turn 2 in the ANT mirror is a good way to Hymn/Mind Twist yourself at the cost of W for the opponent. Doing it against a deck that can not only have 6-7 chants, but also filter Mysticals into Chants with SDT is asking to lose. The biggest problem enemy combo decks face is that 6-7 ANT in general can win by turn 3 while finding/casting a lot of Orim's Chant effects. It was what made Extirpate and Abeyance good in the mirror previously, and has elevated Xantid Swarm in the mirror now. Belcher has to go off turn 1 on the play and win with belcher or it risks seeing its Belcher bounced and/or coming under fire of chant effects whenever it tries to cast rituals.

The last time I checked, the defense to Aluren was Mystical->KGrip and laugh at them when they can't deal with SDT hiding your KGrip. You have forever and a day to win that matchup.

[badjuju]

After looking at the storm piles I'm notincing typically you have you already have roughly 5 spells played before you make a pile since the majority of piles storm for 4-6. Can someone give me a basic rundown of what would go on before making a DD pile. Thanks

You will usually be playing Mystical on upkeep, mana spells, mana artifacts, and chants before you DD into a pile. Remember that with DD, you can choose to go off later rather than sooner. Obviously it depends on matchup, but usually you can afford to wait since you only need at least 2 life. Against aggro, you can use the IGG piles that require extra cards in hand. Against control, you can wait and sculpt your hand so you have more spells to play and fight through counters (and subsequently build up storm). Another thing - if you have extra mana, replace the petal in your pile with another top (assuming you already have one), and you can trade 1 mana for 1 storm.

Also, you have to remember how you're counting. I know you're just looking at the DD piles page and seeing the descriptions that say "storms for 4-6 + tendrils". There are always 5 spells in the pile, meaning your storm will be at LEAST 6 (because 5 cards in pile + casting Doomsday). This doesn't include all the stuff I've mentioned before, like casting a petal, chant, and two rituals before going off.

[Crow]

I have got to say these last two pages have been interesting to follow. People disagreeing is how we get debates going.

Personally i have played DDANT for about two months now and gradually learning things. ive also played against regular ANT in that time and the main difference i run into playing against regular ant is that besides the 6-7chants they also pack duress which often tilts the match in their favor as they are essentially packing 10-11 disruption pieces compaired to my 6-7. and they get a peek at your hand seeing how much disruption you have on hand and how fast they can expect to see you combo off.

Could be my own inexperience though but i have yet to win a match against regular ANT <playing tops of their own>. How are you suposed to go about this match, am i missing something obvious or does regular ant simply have a edge in the mirror?

[Waikiki]

The regular ant plays as far as I know 4 chant and 4 duress. Sometimes it plays 2 top aswell.

Where we play 6-7 chants and 4 tops. Which makes it easier for us to find missing pieces and protection. Post board we run an additional 3xantid swarm that must be answered by them else we are free to combo any time.

I think it should be in favor of the DDANT player. Unless its keeping a non chant hand or the ANT player has the T1 kill.

[CUB3X]

False, Traditional ANT will win a match against DD Nauseam usually all the time. Its faster and has more disruption.

[emidln]

Unless you are winning every die and always going off turn 1 on the play, speed is irrelevant in the tendrils mirror. The match is usually won by whomever draws the most amount of disruption. Postboard, these matches are a tossup usually won by whomever was lucky enough to draw Xantid Swarm + Orim's Chant/Silence to buy the turn that Swarm needs to start attacking.

[jegger]

Carpet of Flowers is really awesome against blue (especially Tempo-Decks) cause it crushes their mana-denial plan und you can simply set up your game plan by out-controlling them with Chants, Top and DD. At the moment I'm testing it in the SB Xantid Swarm slot, due to all my opponent keeping creature removal against me; it's usually a non-wasteable land that provides whichever mana you need; I really love that card.

Thanks for the answer. :wink:
How many copies do you use?
I'm thinking to use it if the number of tempo decks at high tables is more than 10-15% of the field.

[CUB3X]

And typically DDless ANT is a turn faster then DD versions which is why DDless builds usually will win the mirror

[emidln]

And typically DDless ANT is a turn faster then DD versions which is why DDless builds usually will win the mirror

I can't tell if you're trolling or just high. Speed does not win the ANT mirror.

[Citrus-God]

I can't tell if you're trolling or just high. Speed does not win the ANT mirror.

Word. Stability and disruption wins the mirror.

Play some T1 CUB3X. There are a ton of Menendian articles on Storm Combo mirrors.

[CUB3X]

sorry, i didn't mean its just speed, just that its a factor, and ugh type 1. ya i would play if i had 10,000 dollars to spend on magic lol

[Citrus-God]

sorry, i didn't mean its just speed, just that its a factor, and ugh type 1. ya i would play if i had 10,000 dollars to spend on magic lol

Aren't there any 15 card proxy Vintage tournaments in your area? Other than that, money is a big issue. It's a shame.

[CUB3X]

No unfortuantely. My area is almost all standard. Legacy didn't even pick up until this past summer and even then it was mostly scrubs. Finally shaping up to good decks atleast, not necessarily good people. I have some very funny stories from my legacy meta experiences. i played 43 lands before tendrils and my opponent didn't know what exploration was. and then worst was when i was playing my friends burn deck. played a mirror match and my opponent didn't know what magma jet was...i wanted to just get up and leave the store lol

[Wave]

Statistically, you are as likely to be able to combo with Doomsday on turn 2 as you are with Infernal Tutor (assuming you played the same number of them). The cheaper mana cost of Doomsday 4-6 on turn 2 is comparable with Infernal Tutor's 7-8 mana when you factor in the additional cantrips necessary for Doomsday to work. If you count pass the turn piles, you are a lot more likely to combo with Doomsday on turn 1 or 2 than Infernal Tutor.
Doomsday win on turn 2 is actually harder to play than Ad Nauseam win on turn two. You need Two sorts of colored mana B and U, and you need extra cards in hand or Top in play. To win with Doomsday on turn two you need to play a Top turn one, then you can´t do anyting constructive until turn two, but on turn two you need every colored mana you can produce and thus the chances of going of on turn two is quite low. With an Ad Nauseam you can start of the first turn by doing something constructive as playing a Ponder or mystical that gives you something useful turn two, instead of just wasting one mana on nothing turn one, and thus it is statistically easier to do a turn two win with Ad Nauseam, also Ad Nauseam win only takes black mana which is easier to produce than blue and black. To make an Protected Ad Nauseam win you need B and W mana whereas protected Doomsday require B, W and U. I think it is quite clear that the Ad Nauseam turn two win is bound to happen more often.


Have you ever actually lost a match to Enchantress? I don't know that I have ever done that playing anything derived from FT and I've been playing the deck for a long time. That deck is glacially slow and has...6 relevant cards, all of which can be bounced or removed unless they have 2 copies of a 4-of in play to protect them.
Ok losing against enchantress was stretching it but the other matchups being worse still applies and most of them are being quite common, and to answer your question - Yes :rolleyes: he got solitary confinment out and then got the shroud enchantment, next game I mulled to 5 and kept a so so hand and he got the nutz hand with a shitload of sidboarded cards.



Trying to blindly go off turn 2 in the ANT mirror is a good way to Hymn/Mind Twist yourself at the cost of W for the opponent. Doing it against a deck that can not only have 6-7 chants, but also filter Mysticals into Chants with SDT is asking to lose. The good thing is that you played your top the first turn and thus you are out of mana and haven’t done anything constructive on your first turn :-P. No seriously, when did I say that I would go off unprotected turn two, are you assuming that I am a poor player or what? I’ll get deeper into this later on.


The last time I checked, the defense to Aluren was Mystical->KGrip and laugh at them when they can't deal with SDT hiding your KGrip. You have forever and a day to win that matchup. This takes a total of 4 Mana on the same turn, one being blue, one being green to pull off, try to do that by turn 3 without emptying your hand (But yeah, the tricks you can do with top is actually great).


Unless you are winning every die and always going off turn 1 on the play, speed is irrelevant in the tendrils mirror. The match is usually won by whomever draws the most amount of disruption. Postboard, these matches are a tossup usually won by whomever was lucky enough to draw Xantid Swarm + Orim's Chant/Silence to buy the turn that Swarm needs to start attacking. I don’t agree here, yes the mirror matches may drag on but that is just in time thinking what the opponent has and when he can go off, often the mirror just last a couple of turns before either one of you get a protected win. And yeah, you go ahead and board in the Xantid swarms, what are you siding out? One KGrip and…. Oh that’s the only card that was irrelevant, all the other cards sided out just makes your decks less disruptive (Cants) or slower, you go ahead with that plan and I’ll just make something constructive the turn you play the swarms, like playing a spell that does something the turn it is played.

Here’s the problem I have with your strategy, you now have a total of 8 cards that do nothing the turn they comes into play, you can argue that speed is irrelevant but I’ll gain one turn every time you play one of those spells when you do nothing. Speed might be irrelevant to you, but giving the opponents free turns can’t be good. But then again it seems that we just disagree on this point.

On The Ponder VS Top discussion
First turn You play Top and do nothing – you have now seen 7 Cards
My first turn playing Ponder – I have now seen 10 – 11 Cards and drawn one more card than you. You just gave away a turn doing nothing, next turn you have to spend another mana to do anything constructive with the top, thus you have one less mana on the second turn and then you can’t go of since you can’t protect your win. If I played a Ponder the first turn I have two mana available and thus it is easier to go off with a protected win since I can both generate B and W mana. This means that DDANT is not putting up any pressure until turn 3 since it can’t risk going of without protection, whereas the ANT deck is putting up pressure earlier. This example is assuming we both drew lands or had lands on the opening hand. If you play Top first turn and don’t have a land on your opening hand you have to chance and top in your upkeep to get another land or you’re one land behind thus buying the ANT player another turn, this won’t occur with Ponder. And the biggest reason I hate playing Top; (although I use it as a two off in the regular ANT list) using top revealing nothing but shit on top (like 3 useless lands or something) and not having a shuffling effect, with Ponder I just shuffle away the bad draws and proceed to do something relevant, with top I just have to live with the 3 bad draws.

[kicks_422]

To win with Doomsday on turn two you need to play a Top turn one.

Everything else you say after this is now wrong. See what they're saying about learning how to play the card first before criticizing it?

[Davetradint]

I may be wrong, but looks like people are discussing Top and Ponder with a single scenario: to win quickly.
This is not what the deck wants. You do not want to try to win, cast AN or another engine and meet a counter, etc.
You want to be sure to win, it does not matter the turn (obv. 2nd turn win is cooler than 9th turn...)
If your opening hand has business, maybe you can go for it, but if not, what?
Are you going to risk almost or your resources? You can recover, but this works like a sniper: one shot, one kill.
As I said, I may be wrong, but there's some confusion with these two cards. You can win quickly, but if not, you need something helpful midgame and so on.
I wouldn't focus on ending the game as soon as possible, but in winning inevitably.

It's just an opinion...

[Wave]

Everything else you say after this is now wrong. See what they're saying about learning how to play the card first before criticizing it?

The ways of winning on turn two without top is unlikley to happen, they are possible, but unlikley since the commitment of each one is to much. You cannot deny that it is easier and less comitting to win with Ad Nauseam or you would have cut the card entirely already. So what I wrote still applies.


I may be wrong, but looks like people are discussing Top and Ponder with a single scenario: to win quickly.
This is not what the deck wants. You do not want to try to win, cast AN or another engine and meet a counter, etc The fast win discussion has been about the combo matchup where speed is actually a deciding factor, why else would Belcher have such a good matchup against ANT and DDANT. But to meet your argument in fact, winning faster gives your opponent less time to find resources to fend of your win, combo won’t out control the opponent like Counter Top or Stax and thus you have to win before they have the opportunity to win.

[Pulp_Fiction]

The ways of winning on turn two without top is unlikley to happen, they are possible, but unlikley since the commitment of each one is to much. You cannot deny that it is easier and less comitting to win with Ad Nauseam or you would have cut the card entirely already. So what I wrote still applies.

The fast win discussion has been about the combo matchup where speed is actually a deciding factor, why else would Belcher have such a good matchup against ANT and DDANT. But to meet your argument in fact, winning faster gives your opponent less time to find resources to fend of your win, combo won’t out control the opponent like Counter Top or Stax and thus you have to win before they have the opportunity to win.

Not really, you clearly have limited experience with DD. But that is irrelevant because that discussion just goes around in circles and no one will ever admit when they are wrong. Dave is totally correct in what he is saying. I would highly recommend that you pick up Belcher.

Regarding the second paragraph you wrote ...... read carefully what kicks wrote again. Belcher has a good matchup versus decks running 6+ Chants in the main and consistently win on turn 1-3??? Seriously? You remind me of this kid I used to know, he had an Angel LCD paintball gun when they first came out ($1500) and he talked a big game, but when he went onto the field, he got destroyed and always wondered why. Then he would make excuses for his performance. Never once did it occur to him that paintball requires immense amounts of skill and practice and that the player makes the gun, rather than the other way around.

[johanessen]

I see people giving so much reasons to play straight ANT list -which I agree- and some DD Fanboys critisize him with some lack of explanations. That`s me or that`s what happening?

[Wave]

Not really, you clearly have limited experience with DD. But that is irrelevant because that discussion just goes around in circles and no one will ever admit when they are wrong. Dave is totally correct in what he is saying. I would highly recommend that you pick up Belcher.
Actually I have no problem in admitting when I am wrong (this is internet who cares?) and that my experience with Doomsday might be less than yours, or maybe I am just playing it wrong and stuck in the old Vintage combo thinking. I think most of the ppl posting here do it in learning purpose to play the deck better. I am posting my experience with top in the deck and from my point of view, if you think otherwise meet my arguments and the other pro ANT players arguments with real well developed arguments. Just saying you are inexperienced is still like I wrote before hindering the discussion.

[bruno_tiete]

Doomsday win on turn 2 is actually harder to play than Ad Nauseam win on turn two.
Wait, was his point not IT speed vs DD speed?

Sincerely, if you think Belcher has a good matchup against DDANT, your opponents must be the greatest lucksacks on Earth. They HAVE to Proton Cannon you out, specially in game 2, where you can just MT for Echoing Truth.

Last tournament I played, I beat (no kidding) 2 Belcher players, twice each (for Swiss and Topx). I lost one single game, where the dude Belchered me out on the play.

[Nemavera]

Thanks for the answer. :wink:
How many copies do you use?
I'm thinking to use it if the number of tempo decks at high tables is more than 10-15% of the field.

I play it as a 4-of at the moment, but maybe I'm cutting one and another card to add 1-2 Swarms back to my board for the combo mirror and the merfolk matchup.

Played a tournament yesterday and went 4-0-1 (I drawed the last round with my friend a landstill-player, so that we get prize 1+2, and we played for the first pick and I won 2-0, so in fact 5-0-0)
The matchups were pretty easy:

Zoo 2-0
White Wheenie 2-0
Zoo 2-0
Zoo 2-1
Landstill 2-0

I won three times via Ad Nauseam, one time with IGG-Loop and seven times via Doomsday and killed 4 Gaddock Teegs :> DD is just that awesome!

My list was:

2 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
2 Silence
4 Orim's Chant
1 Krosan Grip
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Ponder
4 Mystical Tutor
3 Infernal Tutor
1 Doomsday
1 Meditate
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony


SB: 4 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Silence
SB: 1 Tropical Island
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Pact of Negation
SB: 1 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Slaughter Pact
SB: 2 Doomsday

[Muradin]

How was Carpet of Flowers for you? Isn't Xantid Swarm the better alternative against blue decks such as Merfolk?

Congrats on your finish!

[ColeM]

I'm glad to hear someone has been testing Carpet of Flowers. I have been too busy/lazy to try it out.

Xantid Swarm is probably better against Merfolk than Carpet but it dies quite easily against Canadian Thresh (I prefer not making more of my opponent's deck good against me). Carpet should allow the storm player to easily work through the oponent's mana denial in both matchups if it resolves - making most of the opposition's deck irrelevant. If Carpet gets countered, thats one less piece of relevant disruption you have to worry about.

[badjuju]

Congrats Chris.

Nice matchups btw :tongue:

[Rico Suave]

I may be wrong, but looks like people are discussing Top and Ponder with a single scenario: to win quickly.
This is not what the deck wants. You do not want to try to win, cast AN or another engine and meet a counter, etc.
You want to be sure to win, it does not matter the turn (obv. 2nd turn win is cooler than 9th turn...)
If your opening hand has business, maybe you can go for it, but if not, what?
Are you going to risk almost or your resources? You can recover, but this works like a sniper: one shot, one kill.
As I said, I may be wrong, but there's some confusion with these two cards. You can win quickly, but if not, you need something helpful midgame and so on.
I wouldn't focus on ending the game as soon as possible, but in winning inevitably.

It's just an opinion...

You are right, it does not matter what turn the win is achieved as long as the win is achieved.

However there is a lot to be said about speed. Numerous times I have gone for a win on turn 2 to see my opponent was waiting to drop their CB/Teeg/Canonist on the next turn - a turn they never got. Why do I need Top to dig for an answer to a card when I can just win before any of them are able to be cast?

The longer games go on, the more likely your opponent is able to establish a game-winning board state. The longer games go on, the more relevant your opponent's cards become.

Goldfishing as fast as possible is not always the correct way to play, though it can be right at times, but regardless when you give your opponent more time they are going to cast their Ponders/Brainstorms, dig with their own Tops, get an extra attack phase or two, get an extra land drop to Waste your land, and ultimately your opponent will always benefit more from extra turns than you will.

This idea is called tempo and it is the only reason to play this deck. It just so happens that tempo is one of the hardest things to describe about this game, but everyone knows when they see it (he won the turn before I could cast my bomb and win the game!).

As for a non-DD Tendrils vs. DD Tendrils, speed is largely irrelevant. The fact that non-DD builds run more disruption, however, is critical.

[alderon666]

You are right, it does not matter what turn the win is achieved as long as the win is achieved.

However there is a lot to be said about speed. Numerous times I have gone for a win on turn 2 to see my opponent was waiting to drop their CB/Teeg/Canonist on the next turn - a turn they never got. Why do I need Top to dig for an answer to a card when I can just win before any of them are able to be cast?

The longer games go on, the more likely your opponent is able to establish a game-winning board state. The longer games go on, the more relevant your opponent's cards become.

Goldfishing as fast as possible is not always the correct way to play, though it can be right at times, but regardless when you give your opponent more time they are going to cast their Ponders/Brainstorms, dig with their own Tops, get an extra attack phase or two, get an extra land drop to Waste your land, and ultimately your opponent will always benefit more from extra turns than you will.

This idea is called tempo and it is the only reason to play this deck. It just so happens that tempo is one of the hardest things to describe about this game, but everyone knows when they see it (he won the turn before I could cast my bomb and win the game!).

As for a non-DD Tendrils vs. DD Tendrils, speed is largely irrelevant. The fact that non-DD builds run more disruption, however, is critical.

Yeah, sure. But the way you put just makes it looks like the turn 1 Ponder always leads to a turn 2 win, which is not true at all.

Top adds a whole new level of consistency to storm, you always draw the best of the three cards on the top of your library. And while it is slow against every kind of permanent-based disruption, it owns counters as you can just throw Chants at them until one sticks.

Speed kills. But if you're playing in a blue meta with Merfolk/Tempo ***** once a Chant has ben FoW'ed taking a chance and praying the don't have another FoW or Daze just plain sucks. I'd much rather try to win a game on turn 15 with DD fighting through all the shit they throw at me, than testing if they have a second Fow + blue card on turn 3.

If you push speed too much there are going to be situations where the only thing you can do is dump your hand and pray. While if you're playing DD and Top it opens a larger window for your skills to matter instead of just relying on luck.

[Rico Suave]

Yeah, sure. But the way you put just makes it looks like the turn 1 Ponder always leads to a turn 2 win, which is not true at all.

Top adds a whole new level of consistency to storm, you always draw the best of the three cards on the top of your library. And while it is slow against every kind of permanent-based disruption, it owns counters as you can just throw Chants at them until one sticks.

Speed kills. But if you're playing in a blue meta with Merfolk/Tempo ***** once a Chant has ben FoW'ed taking a chance and praying the don't have another FoW or Daze just plain sucks. I'd much rather try to win a game on turn 15 with DD fighting through all the shit they throw at me, than testing if they have a second Fow + blue card on turn 3.

If you push speed too much there are going to be situations where the only thing you can do is dump your hand and pray. While if you're playing DD and Top it opens a larger window for your skills to matter instead of just relying on luck.

Yes, there are a lot of good things that can be said about Top when a quick kill is not feasible or the best choice. It is very strong with fetches, it can put your resources to use if you weren't going to use them anyway, and it can even provide a back-up plan if something goes horribly wrong.

The question becomes, are you going to run Top instead of Ponder, despite the fact Ponder is clearly better in this deck?

Keep in mind Ponder has a number of advantages over Top beyond the goldfish.

1) Multiple Ponders are not so bad, but multiple Tops are awful and clunky. I've used a lot of excuses to justify running 3+ Tops in decks that they don't belong in, but they are just that - excuses. It can be tough to realize when it is wrong and I am no exception to this.

2) Ponder has much better synergy with Brainstorm, if only because it can shuffle. Top and Brainstorm is mediocre synergy, especially if you're lacking a shuffle effect where it's downright bad synergy.

3) Ponder is simply better at creating storm. With Top you can play it to create storm, but in order to get any use out of it (beyond a blind cantrip) you need to dump more mana into it. Thus, playing Top and using it to find a Dark Ritual is almost pointless, whereas Pondering into that same Ritual will actually begin to generate mana.

Essentially, there are a number of plays that open up simply because you have an extra mana open. This gives the deck more flexibility in its plays, allowing you to play around situations that are quite simply not possible otherwise (Daze being a great example). The deck is more agile and is perhaps more rewarding of skill by being able to do the right thing at the right time instead of being a step behind.

It is much like Intuition-AK in control decks. The deck gains more raw power and is better in the long run, but it raises a number of other issues that could be solved by playing a less demanding set of cards.

Once again I'm not saying Top has no place in the deck. I'm saying that 4 Ponder and 4 Brainstorm belong in the deck before a single Top does, and then what do you start cutting to fit in Top? Builds with DD are especially limited in deck space...

[GreenOne]

Top also messes up with the opponent's game plan in numerous ways:
- They often have to counter it if they think you're playing countertop.
- They can't play Standstill on turn 2 if you have a Top in play.
- They have to find a reasonable clock fast or bury themself under your higher card quality. This can mess up with their cantrip selection. And even if they manage to have a nice clock, the chance of you going off with an engine that doesn't care about life points (as long as you have 2) increases (with Top in play, comboing out with doomsday is easier).
- Top is a great tool to hide cards from opponent's discard spells.
- Top allows you to have virtually nine cards in hand the turn you're going off against control decks.
- 2xTop is a storm generator.

[NQN]

@Nevamara: Do you really like Swarm? I´ve been hating him all the time. First of all, as a 2-off you won´t have him in your opening 7 most of the time.
Then you have to fetch Tropical against decks you don´t want it (merrows,Canadian) and he doesn´t even win against Canadian.
I love Carpet of Flowers in theorie as both decks basicaly have only 4 FoW to disrupt you but win via Manadenial+daze-effects. Carpet just stops it and fuels faster wins. I haven´t had time to test it (atm dredge seems sicker to me) but I already buyed 4 Carpets :)

[Pulp_Fiction]

Top also messes up with the opponent's game plan in numerous ways:
- They often have to counter it if they think you're playing countertop.
- They can't play Standstill on turn 2 if you have a Top in play.
- They have to find a reasonable clock fast or bury themself under your higher card quality. This can mess up with their cantrip selection. And even if they manage to have a nice clock, the chance of you going off with an engine that doesn't care about life points (as long as you have 2) increases (with Top in play, comboing out with doomsday is easier).
- Top is a great tool to hide cards from opponent's discard spells.
- Top allows you to have virtually nine cards in hand the turn you're going off against control decks.
- 2xTop is a storm generator.

QFT!!!! Good to find someone that actually understands storm combo in legacy!!! :cool:

[jegger]

I play it as a 4-of at the moment, but maybe I'm cutting one and another card to add 1-2 Swarms back to my board for the combo mirror and the merfolk matchup.

Thanks for the answer.
Yes, with your pairings Carpet is not the optimal choice. Perhaps you are unlucky with pairings about the use of Carpet and usually you are infested from tempo decks. I don't know.
I've done a little bit of test with Carpet against Dreadstill UGR and Kikko's Gift and it's a must counter. It's very good in some mategames.
Best regards and happy christmas.

[alderon666]

Top also messes up with the opponent's game plan in numerous ways:
- They often have to counter it if they think you're playing countertop.
- They can't play Standstill on turn 2 if you have a Top in play.
- They have to find a reasonable clock fast or bury themself under your higher card quality. This can mess up with their cantrip selection. And even if they manage to have a nice clock, the chance of you going off with an engine that doesn't care about life points (as long as you have 2) increases (with Top in play, comboing out with doomsday is easier).
- Top is a great tool to hide cards from opponent's discard spells.
- Top allows you to have virtually nine cards in hand the turn you're going off against control decks.
- 2xTop is a storm generator.

And the list goes on...

- Mystical Tutor into Tendrils + Ponder costs UU, while Top can be played with black mana, which tends to be more abundant especially in no decks with no Chrome Moxes
- Tops allow you to play Ad Nauseam with mana from LEDs
- Top somehow allows you to Ponder EOT the turn you combo out, while it is slower it justs saves you one mana on the turn it actually matters

In the end it's a matter of speed versus quality. Ponder is faster, but the advantage given by STD on the long run is huge. Maybe there's not a better card, it's just different styles of play.

[Davetradint]

The ponder VS Top discussion is senseless.

It's a matter of approach. If someone wants to go faster with the deck, this player may think it's better to use 4x ponder + 0-2x Top instead of the opposite.

It's not a mistake about deckbuilding, but a different approach to the gameplan of the deck. There's nothing wrong in playing 4x ponder if it works for someone, but THIS deck is able to use and abuse Tops like no other.

I think that time and results will confirm which build is most efficient: DD or non-DD, Tops or no Tops.

One last comment: if this deck is created or updated with the Tops (please "fathers" of the creature let us know), we should think about it and realise that it is designed to use them. Therefore to not be fast as hell, as instead, to have a chance midgame without risking your *ss.

That's just a thought...

[CUB3X]

I'm not sure how many people who have tested carpet but what do you typically take out to bring them in??

[alderon666]

I'm not sure how many people who have tested carpet but what do you typically take out to bring them in??

Well, your opponent has to be playing Islands... and some mana denial (Wasteland/Stifle) and Daze. So that's Merfolk, Tempo *****.

[Rico Suave]

I think that time and results will confirm which build is most efficient: DD or non-DD, Tops or no Tops.

Time and results have already confirmed non-DD lists out perform DD lists.

Time and results have shown Ponder is far more widespread in AN combo than Top.

Time is just waiting for people in this thread to wake up and stop playing a pet deck.

[rsaunder]

You're really susceptible to misleading statistics, aren't you?

You have to look at the number of FT lists that use DDay compared to the number of lists that Don't use DDay (what you seem to have done) and THEN compare them to the number of total times they were played (what you didn't do) to get an accurate percentage of each and see which deck performs better overall. Then, to be holistic about it, you have to look at the metagames in which each performed better and worse.

But thanks for playing and trying to bash a good deck. Better luck next time.

[kicks_422]

It's true that more non-DD ANT lists are T8-ing. But that's probably because more people play those decks than DDANT. One of the reasons is maybe because these players think non-DD is better. However, it might also be because they just haven't learned or can't udnerstand how to play Doomsday effectively. Whether that be because of a lack of time for practice or of personal preference, we'll never know.

DDANT also sometimes just gets too complicated to play compared to ANT where you just land the Ad Nauseam and go auto-pilot from there. My head hurts just playing DDANT online in crafting out DD stacks to get out of situations. I would imagine it would be worse for long tournaments.

[emidln]

In an effort to get away from this discussion, here is a play scenario. You are playing a game one against an unknown opponent and are on the play. You are playing Pulp_Fiction's hybrid list*. You mull then keep this opening hand:

Sensei's Divining Top
Brainstorm
Misty Rainforest
Flooded Strand
Dark Ritual
Doomsday

You lead Misty Rainforest->Island, Sensei's Divining Top. It resolves and you pass the turn. From here:

If your opponent leads with Taiga, Wild Nacatl, what do you do?
If your opponent leads with a blue fetch, pass, what do you do?
If your opponent leads with a Bayou, Thoughtseize, what is the most damaging card they can take and why?

Not all of these situations have finite endings. Some are just to see how you play with limited information while trying to improve your own position.


*for reference, pulp_fiction's hybrid maindeck in shorthand
9 u-fetch
2 sea
2 tundra
1 trop
1 island
4 petal
2 mox
4 rit
2 crit
4 led
4 bs
2 ponder
4 sdt
3 chant
3 silence
1 kgrip
4 mystical
3 infernal
1 adn
1 dd
1 med
1 igg
1 toa

[badjuju]

I don't get where everyone is saying that DDANT is a WAAY more complicated than ANT. You mean you actually have to use your brain a little bit? Sure. But for the most part DDANT can follow the same strategy as ANT and still do fine. DD is an OPTION and not a necessity for winning. I find myself using the standard pile more than half the time when DD, and the post-board piles aren't too difficult either as long as you can count your mana correctly. Familiarizing yourself with things like Brainstorm/Top/LED tricks due to DD will help you become more than just a better DD player, you'll improve yourself as an overall Storm player.

EDIT: Just saw emidln's post. Here's how I'd go about it. Correct me if I am wrong, please. I am still learning the deck and could use any help!

If your opponent leads with Taiga, Wild Nacatl, what do you do?

Untap, draw a card, and use the Island to Brainstorm. I want to see as many cards as possible, and hopefully go off ASAP before I'm within range of burn. Given that I have Dark Ritual in hand, I only need XXU after Dark Ritual to go off with DD. Because my opponent did not lead off with a fetch, I will most likely have to wait another turn or two (or depends what I get off of my Brainstorm) before going off because I will need to rack a storm up to 10 instead of 9 (which I am currently 2 storm shy of). Given that my Brainstorm is ass, I can play and crack a fetch then top before passing the turn. EDIT: So I was just trying to see if I could optimize the IGG DD pile here with LED/LED/IGG/Cantrip/Tendrils when I noticed that emidln cut the a card from the hand, so you can't pull that pile till the next turn.

If your opponent leads with a blue fetch, pass, what do you do?

The same as the previous, but I will play a Tundra before Brainstorming to avoid Daze and Stifle. EDIT: I will play a fetchland and Brainstorm (without cracking the fetch), then weigh my options from here. This allows me to play around Daze and seeing what I have while still not walking into a Stifle.

If your opponent leads with a Bayou, Thoughtseize, what is the most damaging card they can take and why?

After a bit of thinking, I think they will take the Doomsday out of fear. Taking a the Brainstorm seems like a weaker choice because I still have Top in play to help me sculpt. Dark Ritual may be another option when they see that I am low on black sources (fetched an Island first and have a Tundra in hand), but I still believe that DD is the correct choice.

[alderon666]

In an effort to get away from this discussion, here is a play scenario. You are playing a game one against an unknown opponent and are on the play. You are playing Pulp_Fiction's hybrid list*. You keep this opening hand:

Sensei's Divining Top
Brainstorm
Misty Rainforest
Flooded Strand
Tundra
Dark Ritual
Doomsday

You lead Misty Rainforest->Island, Sensei's Divining Top. It resolves and you pass the turn. From here:

If your opponent leads with Taiga, Wild Nacatl, what do you do?
If your opponent leads with a blue fetch, pass, what do you do?
If your opponent leads with a Bayou, Thoughtseize, what is the most damaging card they can take and why?

Not all of these situations have finite endings. Some are just to see how you play with limited information while trying to improve your own position.


*for reference, pulp_fiction's hybrid maindeck in shorthand
9 u-fetch
2 sea
2 tundra
1 trop
1 island
4 petal
2 mox
4 rit
2 crit
4 led
4 bs
2 ponder
4 sdt
3 chant
3 silence
1 kgrip
4 mystical
3 infernal
1 adn
1 dd
1 med
1 igg
1 toa

- If your opponent leads with Taiga, Wild Nacatl, what do you do?

He passes.
You draw for the turn, play Flooded Strand for Underground Sea.
Cast Dark Ritual -> Doomsday making the pile LED, LED, IGG, BS, ToA.
Cast BS getting LED, LED.
Play LED, LED crack'em both for UUUBBB.
Spin Top into IGG, play IGG for BS, LED, LED with UB floating.
Cast LED, LED, Brainstorm cracking LEDs in response for BBBBUUU.
Get BS with BS and cast it, get Top play it and spin it into ToA for 24 life loss.

This is not even the optimal pile, because this pile can be done with just 1 extra card in hand, you have 2. Pile by cheeseburger.


- If your opponent leads with a blue fetch, pass, what do you do?

Search for protection with Top and pray he isn't playing CB. But maybe trying for a turn 3 win you should probably draw for the turn, play the fetch and play Brainstorm. Then on his EOT you break the fetch and see the Top 3. That way you get to see the maximum amount of card until next turn. Is this right?

- If your opponent leads with a Bayou, Thoughtseize, what is the most damaging card they can take and why?

Doomsday, everything else is redudant. BS can be another Top, Dark Ritual can be another DR or a Cabal Ritual one turn slower. Taking the DD forces you into Ad Nauseam or Ill-Gotten Gains territory.

[matelml]

Against Zoo the pass the turn stack, against U I'd Top in the upkeep, because there are no cards in my hand I'd like to lose. Then probably EOT fetch and look again, both times for Chant/LED and otherwise extra Dark Ritual/Ponder/Mystical(to Chant).

I think Dark Ritual is the card in hand you need the most. There are only 5 cards in your deck to replace it (actually 9 with mystical, but that's not preferred) and DDay has 8. So I think the correct choice would be the Ritual, if you didn't have Top, Brainstorm.

[Nemavera]

@Nevamara: Do you really like Swarm? I´ve been hating him all the time. First of all, as a 2-off you won´t have him in your opening 7 most of the time.
Then you have to fetch Tropical against decks you don´t want it (merrows,Canadian) and he doesn´t even win against Canadian.
I love Carpet of Flowers in theorie as both decks basicaly have only 4 FoW to disrupt you but win via Manadenial+daze-effects. Carpet just stops it and fuels faster wins. I haven´t had time to test it (atm dredge seems sicker to me) but I already buyed 4 Carpets :)

Sometimes Swarm is great, sometimes he's really awful that's why I cutted all of them; I wanted to add some back to my board just for merfolk and combo mirrors. Carpet didn't provide a single mana for me that tournament, cause my landstill opponent fetched for double Plateau and had Zuran Orb + Crucible + Wasteland G2.
I guess i wouldn't board Swarm in against CT, only against merfolk and when you fetch trop and play him your opponent must have the force.
I tested Carpet a little more and whenever you resolve one you win against any mana denial strategy.

Against blue I board something like this:

+4x Carpet
+1x Silence
+1x Pact of Negation
+1x Tropical Island
+2x Doomsday

-2x Cabal Rit
-3x Infernal Tutor
-2x Chrome Mox

That's pretty much the basic Plan, than add some number of K-Grips if you expect Canonist, CB, Arcane Laboratory etc, some sort of bounce or pact against Meddling Mage / Teeg.
I take out some number of Lotus Petals, but one, eventually Ad Nauseam and a single Ponder.
This depends largely on what I expect my opponent to play.

I won't contribute to the discussion about ponder vs. top. Just play whatever you like, but don't forget that there is a reason why top is banned in Extended and why many people believe it should be banned in legacy, too. I'd take 4 tops all day long.

Merry Christmas!

[johanessen]

Doomsday, everything else is redudant. BS can be another Top, Dark Ritual can be another DR or a Cabal Ritual one turn slower. Taking the DD forces you into Ad Nauseam or Ill-Gotten Gains territory.

Depends on what's your opponent playing, but if I'm playing discard i'm mostly discarding Brainstorm in order to avoid opponent brainstorm in response to another discard effect.

[alderon666]

Depends on what's your opponent playing, but if I'm playing discard i'm mostly discarding Brainstorm in order to avoid opponent brainstorm in response to another discard effect.

If you discard Brainstorm and the Opponent finds a LED with Top then you lose.

Look at top 3 on upkeep, find a LED and draw it on draw step.

Fetch for Underground Sea.
Cast Dark Ritual, LED, Doomsday.
Making the basic pile: Meditate/LED/LED/Petal/ToA
Crack LED for UUU, spin Top into Meditate. Cast Meditate drawing Top, LED, LED, Petal.
Cast everything, spin Top into Tendrils cracking LEDs for BBBBBB in response for style points.
Cast Tendrils for 18!!!

Crap... let's try again.

Wait did he Thoughtseize? LOL

[Mr.Happy]

If your opponent leads with Taiga, Wild Nacatl, what do you do?
If your opponent leads with a blue fetch, pass, what do you do?
If your opponent leads with a Bayou, Thoughtseize, what is the most damaging card they can take and why?


1. My opponent plays Zoo, i assume that he has no relevant disruption in game one, but a fast clock.
Draw, play Flooded Strand, play Brainstorm, pass
eot crack fetch for Underground Sea, use Top, to set up a turn 3 Doomsday kill.

2. Upkeep use Top (to look for protection), play Flooded Strand, pass.
Keep Brainstorm/Flooded Strand for better Card quality later.

3. The opponent should take Doomsday, because the Stoorm player would be able to win with one more mana. Because of that Brainstorm is definitly the wrong decision.
He should not take Dark ritual, because the Stormplayer could hide every relevant card from discard with Brainstorm and Top until he is able to kill.

[johanessen]

If you discard Brainstorm and the Opponent finds a LED with Top then you lose.

Look at top 3 on upkeep, find a LED and draw it on draw step.

Fetch for Underground Sea.
Cast Dark Ritual, LED, Doomsday.
Making the basic pile: Meditate/LED/LED/Petal/ToA
Crack LED for UUU, spin Top into Meditate. Cast Meditate drawing Top, LED, LED, Petal.
Cast everything, spin Top into Tendrils cracking LEDs for BBBBBB in response for style points.
Cast Tendrils for 18!!!

Crap... let's try again.

Wait did he Thoughtseize? LOL

That's true, but if you don't find led and i follow the next turn with hymn you loose too.

[alderon666]

1. My opponent plays Zoo, i assume that he has no relevant disruption in game one, but a fast clock.
Draw, play Flooded Strand, play Brainstorm, pass
eot crack fetch for Underground Sea, use Top, to set up a turn 3 Doomsday kill.

2. Upkeep use Top (to look for protection), play Flooded Strand, pass.
Keep Brainstorm/Flooded Strand for better Card quality later.

3. The opponent should take Doomsday, because the Stoorm player would be able to win with one more mana.

1- I won on turn 2 against the Zoo, it's on the top of the page! Is there something wrong with my pile?

2- If you draw a card (1), cast Brainstorm (4), break fetch and look at top 3 wish STD (7) you looked at seven cards. If you activate the Top on upkeep you shouldn't break the fetch to play Brainstorm, because then you have no shuffling effect. So you're bound to only go off on turn 4.

3- Doomsday is much harder to replace than mana or the Brainstorm. Not taking Doomsday gives then a chance to win on the next turn, it's slim but it exists.



That's true, but if you don't find led and i follow the next turn with hymn you loose too.


Loose is that argument.
They still have no clock, you have Top on the table and some lands. The game is far from over. If you find a Brainstorm on the top 3 it's even better.

[miro]

1- I won on turn 2 against the Zoo, it's on the top of the page! Is there something wrong with my pile?

Brainstorm :
Draw three cards, then put two cards from your hand on top of your library in any order.



He passes.
You draw for the turn, play Flooded Strand for Underground Sea.
Cast Dark Ritual -> Doomsday making the pile LED, LED, IGG, BS, ToA.
Cast BS getting LED, LED.


Maybe I'm missing something, but what cards you put back on top?
During resolution of BS you can't activate LED to discard so ...
You can't :


Spin Top into IGG

[GreenOne]

Brainstorm :
Draw three cards, then put two cards from your hand on top of your library in any order.
Maybe I'm missing something, but what cards you put back on top?
During resolution of BS you can't activate LED to discard so ...
You can't :
I didn't took the time to look closely at it, but you're probably putting on top the card that you drew for the turn and IGG.

[badjuju]

That is correct.

You Brainstorm into LED/LED/IGG and put back one irrelevant card and IGG ontop of it. You then crack both LED's for BBBUUU and draw with Top to grab your IGG and cast it, getting back LED/LED/Brainstorm. At this point you have BU floating (after using BBUU to cast IGG), so you play both LEDs, Brainstorm, and then respond to Brainstorm by cracking both LEDs and floating BBBUUU(B) again. Brainstorm resolves (you will see Top, irrelevant card, Brainstorm), get Brainstorm, put back Top and irrelevant card. At this point you have BBBBUU Brainstorm again (BBBBU), arrange it so that Tendrils is on top, and grab the Top. Play Top (BBBB), draw Tendrils with it, and Tendrils.

This is pretty much what alderon wrote, but maybe this might help clear up some confusion.

[miro]

^Thank you both.
Learning all the time.

[alderon666]

That is correct.

You Brainstorm into LED/LED/IGG and put back one irrelevant card and IGG ontop of it. You then crack both LED's for BBBUUU and draw with Top to grab your IGG and cast it, getting back LED/LED/Brainstorm. At this point you have BU floating (after using BBUU to cast IGG), so you play both LEDs, Brainstorm, and then respond to Brainstorm by cracking both LEDs and floating BBBUUU(B) again. Brainstorm resolves (you will see Top, irrelevant card, Brainstorm), get Brainstorm, put back Top and irrelevant card. At this point you have BBBBUU Brainstorm again (BBBBU), arrange it so that Tendrils is on top, and grab the Top. Play Top (BBBB), draw Tendrils with it, and Tendrils.

This is pretty much what alderon wrote, but maybe this might help clear up some confusion.

Yeah, thanks. That's what I meant.

I didn't realize I had to draw up every step of the way in the freaking Storm thread.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But do you want a different challenge? This one is mostly for fun, it's a corner case... but no impossible.

Consider you opponent is playing a white/green life link creature deck, is tapped out with no cards in hand, has you dead next turn and is at a whooping 44 life.

You are playing a Ad Nauseam/DD hybrid. You are at 11 life. Fully untapped on your first main phase.

Hand:
Tendrils of Agony, LED, Dark Ritual and Doomsday in hand

In play:
STD STD
Underground Sea/Scrubland

Top of your deck:
Krosan Grip, Tundra, Tropical Island

Can you ramp up to 21 storm + Tendrils?

[Rico Suave]

I won't contribute to the discussion about ponder vs. top. Just play whatever you like, but don't forget that there is a reason why top is banned in Extended and why many people believe it should be banned in legacy, too. I'd take 4 tops all day long.


Top was banned for logistical reasons, because it made tournaments take forever and as a result there were an obscene amount of draws for match results.

[emidln]

@alderon666
my count says you get 24 Storm + Tendrils. My proof is here (http://emidln.blogspot.com/2009/12/this-is-my-solution-to-puzzle.html). (Linked to my blog so as to not spoil the answer for those who don't want it.)

Edit: 28 storm + tendrils. cracking LEDs, no matter how impressive, does not generate storm.
Edit#2: I'm bad with this deck. 24 Storm + Tendrils. Thanks alderon666!

[alderon666]

@alderon666
my count says you get 28 Storm + Tendrils. My proof is here (http://emidln.blogspot.com/2009/12/this-is-my-solution-to-puzzle.html). (Linked to my blog so as to not spoil the answer for those who don't want it.)

Edit: 28 storm + tendrils. cracking LEDs, no matter how impressive, does not generate storm.

Didn't want to rain on your parade there, but when you make your second pile the SDT is in the top of your library, if you don't add it to your second pile, replacing a LED, you can't make SDT -> SDT (x9) on the second iteration.

Other than that that seems to be the optimal pile to build in this situation.

Even though this looks like a ludicrous situation it shows us how powerful is having Tendrils in hand. It allows you to build a pile that focuses just on mana an that helps on the Doomsday loop. The requirements are pretty standard other than the second SDT in play and Tendrils in hand, but it's just something to keep in mind when you opponent has an active Jitte with 6 counters or something.

[emidln]

Didn't want to rain on your parade there, but when you make your second pile the SDT is in the top of your library, if you don't add it to your second pile, replacing a LED, you can't make SDT -> SDT (x9) on the second iteration.

Ok, fixed the math there. It's 24 Storm + Tendrils so 50 lifeloss.

[Adan]

I saw this list and would like to discuss:


1st - David Miñarro - TW: ANT

Maindeck:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
2 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mystical Tutor
2 Ponder
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Thoughtseize

Sideboard:

4 Dark Confidant
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Slaughter Pact
4 Spell Pierce
1 Thoughtseize
2 Wipe Away

I just know that this David Minarro is a good player so I don't want to bash this build prematurely, but although it looks consistent, I just can't see any reason to play without a splash.
What sense does that make? What advantages may it bring with it? Is it built to be more persistent against TempoThresh?

[Nidd]

2 Ad Nauseam and 3 Thoughtseize looks risky to me. Isn't the lifeloss too much of an issue?

[Adan]

2 Ad Nauseam and 3 Thoughtseize looks risky to me. Isn't the lifeloss too much of an issue?

That's also a riddle to me.

[Crow]

Quite a interesting list, Ive toyed with the idea of dropping white and going with just hand disruption as protection but i always figured that between their top and my own IGG id run into trouble.
Giving up green and going with purely wipeaway as splitsecond removal and ditching carpet of flowers and swarm in favor of more basic land and dark confidant+spell pierce

It certainly helps the mana base to include more basics. found myself wishing i played more of those quite often.

three thoughtseize and double ad nauseam does seem like a massive ammount of life loss. Although if you consider using thoughtseize is equal to flipping meditate/doomsday with Adn it doesnt seem that crazy. im not sold on double adn but seeing quite a few lists run two i supose that never has been a issue.

[Piceli89]

I can't really see the motivation of going UB instead of UBw, if it's not to add manabase consistency of for budget or card-lacking reasons; if it's the first case, having 2 islands and 1 swamp instead of the canonic 1 island and 1 swamp regular ANT packs doesn't seem a great deal to me..

Discard as the only protection won't carry the deck nowhere. First , because IGG is badly damaged not only against blue decks, but only against those that can recur, say, burn spells, Chants, even Extirpate or lifegain cards such as Stp. Second, discard can't do nothing against Countertop decks, who often hide their FoW or another counter on the top and they trick you taking it at the right moment; furthermore, discard is quite bad against decks with multiple counters ala Tempo Threshold.

Last but not least, if one wants to run protection in the form of discard, he surely won't do the job with only 4 duresses. Therefore, he'll be forced to pick Thoughtseize, which is bad in a list that relies quite heavily on winning via Ad Nauseam. Perhaps I could stand that configuration in multi-engine and greater threat density decks like NLS , but not in Minarro's list.

Unless he was expecting to face a meta of Chalice-based or Survival/Discard/non-blue-disruption (well, maybe 7 discards could in taking away CB) decks ONLY, Chant is such a huge protection that it's difficult to renounce to it. I'd be very eager to listen to his motivation, if he can join us or he's already on here.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I think not playing Chants is a serious mistake. They solve every problem when going off, avoid cards like Spell Snare and Stifle, and are able to handle multiple hate cards. This has ben discussed a lot, but, unless it is for budget reasons, there really isn't any good reason to run discard effects over Chants + Discard, or Chants only.

The only time I played storm without Chants .. I lost bad, simply because they weren't there. I ran 4x Duress and 4x Pyroblast in the main in a build of DDFT and that was terrible. It hated on Counterbalance something fierce, but against every other hate card, it was terrible. This kind of protection is very limited, and based on the win condition you are using it can cause problems. Chants cover all the bases whether you are winning with DD, IGG, or AdN, and even if you are winning with just rituals or throwing your hand into an LED.

The list itself is fine, but there really isn't a good reason to run only discard. 4x Chant and 3-4 Duress is fine but I am not sure why you want to run only discard spells.

[Nidd]

Quick question: Do you guys think it's possible to build a version with DD but without LED?

Or, should I ask it this way... I have 350€, is it possible to build a decent version of this deck?
I've been goldfishing countless hours with various lists and played many of them on MWS, but looking at the price of LED, I kinda lost my faith.

[Piceli89]

Quick question: Do you guys think it's possible to build a version with DD but without LED?

No. LED's the mana core of the deck, even and especially for DD shenanigans.





Or, should I ask it this way... I have 350€, is it possible to build a decent version of this deck?
I've been goldfishing countless hours with various lists and played many of them on MWS, but looking at the price of LED, I kinda lost my faith.

With 350 Euros?

4 LEDs-80 ( i took mine for 55, i think that's their price atm.. of course if you are taking eGay as a referrement, you can proceed building something else).
8 U-Fetches-90
1 USea-30 (they should be 2, however)
1 Tundra-25 (high)
1 Scrubland-20 (high)
2-3 Chrome Mox-30
4 Chant-40 (very high)
4 Mystical-12
4 Petal-12
1 Ad Nauseam-3
1 IGG-3
4 D Ritual-2
4 Cabal Ritual-2
4 Duress-2
4 Bstorm-6
4 Ponder-2
1 Tendrils-1
1-2 Island-i hope you have it..
1 Swamp-i hope you have it..

Tot. 360, excluding the sideboard. But i think you already have something.. i mean, BStorm and Ponder are a must have for every Legacy player. Also, if you buy all in block, i think you can get some discount.

The Source: your Source for Wallet Help!

[Nidd]

LED is like 23€ minimum here and no, I'm not looking at E-bay. The last time I checked prices there, I felt the urgent need to jump out of the window.
But it looks like I could borrow them from a buddy, so it's all cool it seems.

And no, I don't have any of the staples you mentioned, I've been playing LED-Less Ichorid for a long long time.


Thanks for your help!

[Gocho]

No. LED's the mana core of the deck, even and especially for DD shenanigans.
With 350 Euros?

4 LEDs-80 ( i took mine for 55, i think that's their price atm.. of course if you are taking eGay as a referrement, you can proceed building something else).
8 U-Fetches-90
1 USea-30 (they should be 2, however)
1 Tundra-25 (high)
1 Scrubland-20 (high)
2-3 Chrome Mox-30
4 Chant-40 (very high)
4 Mystical-12
4 Petal-12
1 Ad Nauseam-3
1 IGG-3
4 D Ritual-2
4 Cabal Ritual-2
4 Duress-2
4 Bstorm-6
4 Ponder-2
1 Tendrils-1
1-2 Island-i hope you have it..
1 Swamp-i hope you have it..

Tot. 360, excluding the sideboard. But i think you already have something.. i mean, BStorm and Ponder are a must have for every Legacy player. Also, if you buy all in block, i think you can get some discount.

The Source: your Source for Wallet Help!

You can buy some cards cheaper. I bought Ad nauseam for 0.25$ and you can use Silence in the place of Chants, they are cheaper and almost equal. If you search a little can find Chrome Mox at 8€, etc...

[CUB3X]

Before I say anything I would like to mention that in no way am I condoning this but there has been an LEDless decklist on deckcheck making 3rd and 4th place in tournaments. I completely disagree with the list but here:

instant [22]
3 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
3 Cabal Ritual
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Dark Ritual
4 Mystical Tutor
3 Pact of Negation

sorcery [14]
4 Duress
4 Ponder
4 Serum Visions
2 Tendrils of Agony

artifact [10]
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
2 Mox Diamond

land [14]
2 Crystal Vein
1 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
60 cards

Sideboard:
1 Angel's Grace
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Wipe Away
1 Bitter Ordeal
1 Extract
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
15 cards


This list seems very very strang to me but it may be cheaper then the traditional ANT builds.

[Piceli89]

Before I say anything I would like to mention that in no way am I condoning this but there has been an LEDless decklist on deckcheck making 3rd and 4th place in tournaments. I completely disagree with the list but here:

instant [22]
3 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
3 Cabal Ritual
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Dark Ritual
4 Mystical Tutor
3 Pact of Negation

sorcery [14]
4 Duress
4 Ponder
4 Serum Visions
2 Tendrils of Agony

artifact [10]
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
2 Mox Diamond

land [14]
2 Crystal Vein
1 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
60 cards

Sideboard:
1 Angel's Grace
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Wipe Away
1 Bitter Ordeal
1 Extract
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
15 cards


This list seems very very strang to me but it may be cheaper then the traditional ANT builds.

The +2 USeas (60 euros) and the +2 Chrome Moxes (20 euros) that list requires balance the cost of the traditional one, which has +4 LEDs (70 is theirs on avg) and +4 Silence (12-15). Ah, wait! There are also 2 Mox Diamonds which are 15 each, if not more. But , on the other side, there are 3 fetches missing, i.e. 30 euros.

So, the list above costs like the traditional LED-with one, with the slight difference that this one sucks straight balls- i guess it's way better to invest of Chants and LED.

[MattH]

Jesus, how does that deck ever find Tendrils, even off AdN? Cantrips are not tutors >_<

[FredMaster]

Cantrips are not tutors >_<
Unless you pair 'em with Mystical Tutors.

But yeah, I don't like the deck either.

[johanessen]

Me and my team have been playing this deck since ad nauseam was released and we've got some good results til now:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=24206
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=24190
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=28425
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=28427
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=30609
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=30947

Being LLBL (Lotacy) a weekly tournament of 50 people average and LCL (Liga Catalana) a monthly tournament 80 people average.

So the deck work's good, maybe not as LED version but there is a crucial advantadge this deck gives and is that is faster and it's prepared to face tempo threshold , a very common deck in our meta

[Piceli89]

Me and my team have been playing this deck since ad nauseam was released and we've got some good results til now:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=24206
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=24190
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=28425
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=28427
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=30609
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=30947

Being LLBL (Lotacy) a weekly tournament of 50 people average and LCL (Liga Catalana) a monthly tournament 80 people average.

So the deck work's good, maybe not as LED version but there is a crucial advantadge this deck gives and is that is faster and it's prepared to face tempo threshold , a very common deck in our meta

Tempo Threshold? You're running 3 Ad Nauseams and 2 Tendrils, meaning your AdN will be a lot suboptimal.Pair this with the fact that you run thoughtseize, and than their Bolts and Goyfs will require few time in bringing you down to death.
Plus, to beat TT you need Chants (when I play DDANT with 6 chants Tempo Threshold is literally a bye, is the matchup that I'd like to always meet at a Tourney), discard can't take off multiple hate cards- it's true that against your list, Spell Snare is less relevant because of the lack of Infernal Tutor, but it would take away Stifle at least. Plus, I don't like all those moxens, as every good player knows the more Moxes you put in ANT, the less consitent will be the average opening hand. I hated 4 moxes when playing with TES, I can't even imagine how it would be to often open hands with 1 Chrome and 1 Diamond..pure card disadvantage.

And the lack of Igg is pure suicide. Relying only on Ad Nauseam makes it a limited combo without possibility to escape bad situations or red-based-aggro if you don't get a good start, or they manage to take you under 14-15 lives-this because the very fact that you run a lot of very high-cost cards.

[linux-ll-]

Tempo Threshold? You're running 3 Ad Nauseams and 2 Tendrils, meaning your AdN will be a lot suboptimal.Pair this with the fact that you run thoughtseize
Where is he playing Thoughseize? My list (nearly the same, I run only one Tendrils, no S-Visions) has a lower Avg. Casting Cost than DDANT or StraightANT.

Plus, to beat TT you need Chants (when I play DDANT with 6 chants Tempo Threshold is literally a bye, is the matchup that I'd like to always meet at a Tourney)
Why should be Chant/Silence be better against TT than Pact of Negation?
Far from it, Pact costs 0 mana, thus you should be able to go off faster.

Plus, I don't like all those moxens, as every good player knows the more Moxes you put in ANT, the less consitent will be the average opening hand
And every good player knows that you can be faster with them, sure a hand with two of them sucks, but I think with this list you will fizzle less with Ad Nauseam than with DDANT or Straight ANT.

And the lack of Igg is pure suicide. Relying only on Ad Nauseam makes it a limited combo without possibility to escape bad situations or red-based-aggro if you don't get a good start, or they manage to take you under 14-15 lives-this because the very fact that you run a lot of very high-cost cards.
That´s the point, LED-LESS ANT wants to be fast, you play more moxes, a "chant effect" for 0 mana so you shouldn´t come in bad situations and be able to win faster than other ANT Versions. We had the discussion about LED-LESS ANT some pages ago and
I can´t say which ANT version is the best. I think it depends on the meta.
But the most important factor is what you I like to play, some people prefer Straight ANT or DDANT, some LED-LESS ANT and as the results show all decks are able to win!

[alderon666]

Pact of Negation pre combo is just bad. Seriously, the only part that actually matters is the pre-combo part, after you've drawn 30 cards winning is trivial.

Pact fights one counter after you've dumped your whole hand. If you haven't resolved a Duress right before you are just playing Russian Roullete hoping your opponent doesn't have a sencond counter. Chants garantees your plan won't be disrupted without the necessity of the compromising any resources but a card and W.

Pact makes you lose the game if they Brainstorm into 2 counters or something. That will make you lose games you could have rebuilt your hand and gone off again.

[BreathWeapon]

Playing non-LED ANT and not playing Red/Pyro Blast just doesn't make sense, the entire point of non-LED ANT was to use Red/Pyro Blast to deter Counterbalance. Pact of Negation is garbage, and cutting the best accelerant in the deck for the worst disruption that doesn't address any of the deck's weaknesses is pointless.

[Rico Suave]

Pact of Negation is actually very powerful. The only reason not to play it is because of LED.

[Eksem]

I have a question about the Merfolk-matchup.

I am new to the boards although I have been lurking for the last year or so. I recently put together an ANT-deck, pretty standard build. I have yet to take it to a tournament but I have been testing it at my local store pitting it against the usual crowd (most archetypes are represented, the only really notable exception being Stompy/Prison-strategies).

Most decks i've played against range from easy to beat to pretty tough although managable but there is one deck that seems near impossible to beat and that is Merfolk. I lose so hard in that matchup that it really feels like I am missing something important.

First of all there are so many things to play around. Stifle+Wasteland, Daze, FoW. This, of course, slows me down because I have to play safe mana and find protection before going off. That is not a huge problem when playing against *****-decks and the worst thing coming at you for the first couple of turns is a lonely Mongoose. The problem is that Merfolk-decks couple their quite impressive disruption with a surprisingly fast clock, not leaving much room for playing slowly.

So how does one approach this matchup? Should I just ignore Stifle, FoW and to some extent Daze and just try to go off as soon as possible before he gets too much of a clock on me? Should I focus on going off with IGG instead of AdN? Should I keep playing like I do, taking it slowly and go for the sure win and accept that Merfolk is a hard matchup? Or should I just build a DD-version and start practicing piles in case a real Merfolk-meta developes here? (it's seems to be going that direction already)

[alderon666]

Pact of Negation is actually very powerful. The only reason not to play it is because of LED.

Care to elaborate on that?


Against a single counter it's AWESOME!

But in my meta people seem to carry Daze/FoW/Counterspell/Spell Snare/Stifle in their pockets, because everytime I try to go off relying on them not having/not having topdecked another counter I lose.

After you go off it's quite good too, but as I said earlier, that part rarely matters.



I have a question about the Merfolk-matchup.

I am new to the boards although I have been lurking for the last year or so. I recently put together an ANT-deck, pretty standard build. I have yet to take it to a tournament but I have been testing it at my local store pitting it against the usual crowd (most archetypes are represented, the only really notable exception being Stompy/Prison-strategies).

Most decks i've played against range from easy to beat to pretty tough although managable but there is one deck that seems near impossible to beat and that is Merfolk. I lose so hard in that matchup that it really feels like I am missing something important.

First of all there are so many things to play around. Stifle+Wasteland, Daze, FoW. This, of course, slows me down because I have to play safe mana and find protection before going off. That is not a huge problem when playing against *****-decks and the worst thing coming at you for the first couple of turns is a lonely Mongoose. The problem is that Merfolk-decks couple their quite impressive disruption with a surprisingly fast clock, not leaving much room for playing slowly.

So how does one approach this matchup? Should I just ignore Stifle, FoW and to some extent Daze and just try to go off as soon as possible before he gets too much of a clock on me? Should I focus on going off with IGG instead of AdN? Should I keep playing like I do, taking it slowly and go for the sure win and accept that Merfolk is a hard matchup? Or should I just build a DD-version and start practicing piles in case a real Merfolk-meta developes here? (it's seems to be going that direction already)


Daze and Cursecatcher can be played around. If you can't get a Duress in and see no FoW, or can take their only FoW then you can probably go off the next turn as they have no Brainstorm and very little draw.

You should play around Stifle on your fetchlands and try to get basics with them. I don't really play the AdN version, so I always tend to lean on DD to win as that gives me more time to accumulated protection and mana (altough that gives them more time to disrupt me too).

From my experience you have to play your disruption and at some point go for it. They run only 4 hard counters and a lot of creatures, so there's also the chance they don't have a second/third/fourth counter. But be careful with your protection, Chant is bad when you have the exact mana to go off, as their Daze becomes a hard counter unless you want to gamble of course. Watch out for Vial at #1 putting Cursecatcher in play at instant speed.

[Eksem]

Care to elaborate on that?
I don't really play the AdN version, so I always tend to lean on DD to win as that gives me more time to accumulated protection and mana (altough that gives them more time to disrupt me too).

So would you consider a DD-version more optimal in a Merfolk-heavy meta? Well, I guess you would consider DD-versions more optimal in general since you play the DD-deck, but in the Merfolk-matchup specifically?

[alderon666]

So would you consider a DD-version more optimal in a Merfolk-heavy meta? Well, I guess you would consider DD-versions more optimal in general since you play the DD-deck, but in the Merfolk-matchup specifically?

It's kind of a cointoss. If you can get a Duress in early taking their only FoW it's great. But most of the times they're going to have either a second FoW, or a Daze, or a Cursecatcher or even a Standstill. And as I mentioned before, trying to go off with Chant + exact mana turns Daze either into a Counterspell or an invitation to the game "Do I have another counter?".

With DDANT you can play a SDT and filter your hand into a bunch of mana and protection. Under a Standstill, if they don't have Vial out, it's very good as you have a bunch of turns to filter. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but I do like my chances better than with a straight ANT version. With ANT you have to go off fast because they can drop your life total very quickly and going off unprotected is very dangerous.

On the other hand the speed of ANT sometimes is very relevant. They have a lot of creatures and they just can't mull a good creature hand + Standstill hand everytime to find counters. So sometimes you can play a single protection spell, it sticks(or not) and you go off before they can react. But from my experience more often then not they have more free counters than you'd like.

[linux-ll-]

Care to elaborate on that?
Against a single counter it's AWESOME!
But in my meta people seem to carry Daze/FoW/Counterspell/Spell Snare/Stifle in their pockets, because everytime I try to go off relying on them not having/not having topdecked another counter I lose.
After you go off it's quite good too, but as I said earlier, that part rarely matters.

Seriously how many counter do you expect?
When I get the chance to go 1-3 round of against aggro control with one PoN on hand I´ll risk it and 95% of the times it worked well.
And against heavy control (Landstill etc.) you have all the time you need to collect 2/3 Protectionspells.
Stifel is a joke after Ad Nauseam, you will have a lot of Duress/PoN!

[alderon666]

Really? What can I say? Everytime I play Merfolk they open with Daze/FoW in hand and turn 1 Cursecatcher. Everytime I play Canadian ***** I get Wasted into oblivion (although this one is not that hard).

While I may sound too pessimistic you just sound like your Ad Nauseam has split second.

[Eksem]

Seriously how many counter do you expect?
When I get the chance to go 1-3 round of against aggro control with one PoN on hand I´ll risk it and 95% of the times it worked well.
And against heavy control (Landstill etc.) you have all the time you need to collect 2/3 Protectionspells.
Stifel is a joke after Ad Nauseam, you will have a lot of Duress/PoN!

So what you are saying is that if you have at least 1 card for protection, you should probably be safe going off early. Is it worth it trying to mulligan into a "safer" hand if you know you are facing Merfolk and the hand you have seems to be able to get going in turns 1,2,3 but no protection in sight? How would that math work out?

[Rico Suave]

Care to elaborate on that?


Against a single counter it's AWESOME!

But in my meta people seem to carry Daze/FoW/Counterspell/Spell Snare/Stifle in their pockets, because everytime I try to go off relying on them not having/not having topdecked another counter I lose.

After you go off it's quite good too, but as I said earlier, that part rarely matters.

The elaboration part is easy. Pact is 0 mana while Chant is 1 mana.

You can look at the rest of your post for reasons why this is better:

"Chant is bad when you have the exact mana to go off, as their Daze becomes a hard counter unless you want to gamble of course. Watch out for Vial at #1 putting Cursecatcher in play at instant speed."

[alderon666]

The elaboration part is easy. Pact is 0 mana while Chant is 1 mana.

You can look at the rest of your post for reasons why this is better:

"Chant is bad when you have the exact mana to go off, as their Daze becomes a hard counter unless you want to gamble of course. Watch out for Vial at #1 putting Cursecatcher in play at instant speed."

I don't understand where this discussion is going? Are we just going to assume every opponent always has just one counter in their hand at all times? If so I will just play Belcher with maindeck Blasts or something.

[Rico Suave]

You asked me to explain why a 0 mana disruption spell is better than a 1 mana disruption spell.

I did.

I don't know why you are confused.

I also don't know what makes you think the deck has nothing but Pact.

[Gocho]

I have a question about the Merfolk-matchup.

I am new to the boards although I have been lurking for the last year or so. I recently put together an ANT-deck, pretty standard build. I have yet to take it to a tournament but I have been testing it at my local store pitting it against the usual crowd (most archetypes are represented, the only really notable exception being Stompy/Prison-strategies).

Most decks i've played against range from easy to beat to pretty tough although managable but there is one deck that seems near impossible to beat and that is Merfolk. I lose so hard in that matchup that it really feels like I am missing something important.

First of all there are so many things to play around. Stifle+Wasteland, Daze, FoW. This, of course, slows me down because I have to play safe mana and find protection before going off. That is not a huge problem when playing against *****-decks and the worst thing coming at you for the first couple of turns is a lonely Mongoose. The problem is that Merfolk-decks couple their quite impressive disruption with a surprisingly fast clock, not leaving much room for playing slowly.

So how does one approach this matchup? Should I just ignore Stifle, FoW and to some extent Daze and just try to go off as soon as possible before he gets too much of a clock on me? Should I focus on going off with IGG instead of AdN? Should I keep playing like I do, taking it slowly and go for the sure win and accept that Merfolk is a hard matchup? Or should I just build a DD-version and start practicing piles in case a real Merfolk-meta developes here? (it's seems to be going that direction already)

The best sb card vs Merfolk is Xantid Swarm. They can't kill it and you can tutor for every card do you need to combo one, two or three turns after play it. I never lost a single game if I play an early Xantid Swarm.

[bulaxas]

Hi guys, I would like to know how to sideboard with this list against most decks.

Instant
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Orim's Chant

Sorcery
4 Duress
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Ponder
1 Tendrils of Agony

Artifact
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

Land
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea


Sideboard:
4 Dark Confidant
1 Angel's Grace
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Echoing Truth
3 Krosan Grip
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Tropical Island
1 Slaughter Pact

I would apreciate if you guys cold help me, because most of the times i dont know what to side out to board other cards

thanks:smile:

[alderon666]

Hi guys, I would like to know how to sideboard with this list against most decks.

Instant
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Orim's Chant

Sorcery
4 Duress
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Ponder
1 Tendrils of Agony

Artifact
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

Land
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea


Sideboard:
4 Dark Confidant
1 Angel's Grace
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Echoing Truth
3 Krosan Grip
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Tropical Island
1 Slaughter Pact

I would apreciate if you guys cold help me, because most of the times i dont know what to side out to board other cards

thanks:smile:

Don't trust me on this. I would:

MD:
-1 Infernal Tutor
-1 Tundra
+1 Tropical Island
+1 Krosan Grip

SB:
Your sideboard is all wrong.
It's somewhat accepted that Dark Confidant are bad. People keep in Swords to Plowshares/Bolt so they can gain life/finish you off, respectively. So it just ends up eating removal and doing nothing but slowing you down.

Angel's Grace kinda sucks hard. It might work against aggro from time to time but only wins you matchups that you should be winning easily.

Tropical Island, I would play a Bayou here. While Tropical can be fetched by any of your 8 fetches, sometimes you need G/B mana if you have an Island or Tundra. Getting Tropical wasted and then only drawing Flooded Strands while needing green mana is bad, but I'm willing to take that chance. Most of the times you only fetch green when you're using it.

Slaughter Pact is good.

Tendrils of Agony, I suppose this is sided in against some discard or something. It's ok, having just one win condition always bothers me.

Ill-Gotten Gains, unless you're playing Burning Wish you shouldn't have one of these in your SB. You're more likely to side the one the MD out, than ever needing to side on in from the SB.

The rest is ok, I would play something like Rebuild, or Hurkyl's Recall or even Serenity. I would also suggest Xantid Swarms, but they are more like a metagame call as they're mostly good against Merfolk.

[Gocho]

On the draw, I won some games vs Aggro deck with a single Angel's Grace.

Generally they mulligan to 5-4 searching for Pyrostatic Pillar and play it in his second turn.
Then I play Ad Nauseam in my turn, draw a bunch of cards + Angel's Grace and win at 1 life through the pillar.

It's a single slot of the Sideboard and won me enough games to pay for it.

[alderon666]

On the draw, I won some games vs Aggro deck with a single Angel's Grace.

Generally they mulligan to 5-4 searching for Pyrostatic Pillar and play it in his second turn.
Then I play Ad Nauseam in my turn, draw a bunch of cards + Angel's Grace and win at 1 life through the pillar.

It's a single slot of the Sideboard and won me enough games to pay for it.

Sure, if your meta is full of Pillars then it sounds fine. But most of the time it's just going to be a wasted slot since Pillar is the least played hate compared to Chalice, 3Sphere, Gaddock, MM, Canonist, Counterbalance.

[Gocho]

In Europe, or are least in Spain, there are a lot of Tarmosligh and almost no Zoo.

In the last tournament, I see 3 Counterbalance decks, 1 Stax and 3 Zoo with 46 players. So, I face no Gaddock, no Canonist, no chalice, no 3sphere.

What card do yo mean with "MM"?

[johanessen]

Meddling Mage

[Noman Peopled]

Wouldn't a bounce spell or disenchant do just as much against Pyro Pillars? Maybe even Hydroblast since it also counters Fireblasts and other burn spells as well as kill Kirds? Granted, bounce doesn't work against multiples (well, Echoing Truth does) but it would be much better to have against CBalance and Stax.

[alderon666]

Wouldn't a bounce spell or disenchant do just as much against Pyro Pillars? Maybe even Hydroblast since it also counters Fireblasts and other burn spells as well as kill Kirds? Granted, bounce doesn't work against multiples (well, Echoing Truth does) but it would be much better to have against CBalance and Stax.

Grace garantees a win after a resolved Ad Nauseam, all the stuff you suggest folds to Turn 1 Nacatl, Turn 2 Pillar, Turn 3 burn burn. Maybe not fold, but Ad Nauseing with 7 life is never a good deal.

[CUB3X]

As far as Dark Confidant is concerned. I remember the discussion of why it was bad against control. I play 3 sideboard because in my local meta there is a (Poxless) Pox deck with heavy discard (Therapy, Thoughtseize, Hymns). I find it useful against decks like that.

As far as sideboard goes I run:

3 Dark Confidant
1 Angel's Grace
3 Krosan Grip
1 Silence
1 Tropical Island
2 Echoing Truth
2 Deathmark
2 Sensei's Diving Top

Confidants/Tops for Eva Green/ Pox
Grace for Combo/Aggro
Grips for any Ench/Art hate coupled with control
Silence for comob/ control
Truth for dredge/ permanent hate
Marks for Teeg/Canonist/ Meddling Mage

[Eksem]

The best sb card vs Merfolk is Xantid Swarm. They can't kill it and you can tutor for every card do you need to combo one, two or three turns after play it. I never lost a single game if I play an early Xantid Swarm.

I can see how dropping an early enough Xantid Swarm would, well, win the game; but how does one get it into play? Aggressive mulligans? Digging like crazy?

[Gocho]

I always find one playing Top, Brainstorm and/or Ponder, but you always can sideboard 3-4 Xantid to find early.

I have 2 in my SB and will add a one more, because I see more Merfolks the last tournament.

[Rune]

My 2 cents on ANT after having tested various different lists for some time (I hope atleast some of this is not old news):

Using Ponder over SDT: Both are good and should be maindecked. Ponder's shuffle effect is often very useful, however, SDT is sooo good it should be a crime not to play it. I have won a lot of games just on the back of this card. Its ability to generate storm for colorless mana or to be a colorless ponder for 2 has saved me many times where I had no access to blue after going off and would have lost without it. Its synergy with LED is also truly awesome. It kind of makes up for the way Wizards 'nerfed' LED by removing mana floating to draw step because with SDT you get that interaction back.

Using Thoughtseize/Pact of Negation over Chant/Silence: I think Seize and Pact are pretty unimpressive. Chant is more flexible and good against many different decks, unlike the other 2 cards it will never be a completely dead card g1. Thoughtseize: lifeloss, narrow usage, terrible against blue aggro if you are forced to later win through an IGG loop and you have discarded their FoW's in the early game. The only good thing about it is obviously that it's an early play that you don't need to keep mana for later in the game. Pact of Negation: I think this card is pretty terrible to say the least. First off you will be banging your head against something if you are forced to go off with a hand containing LED, Infernal Tutor and the Pact as only "protection" - this interaction is just terrible and shows that card actually relies on having Chant in hand, and Chant never relies on anything, except for the mana to cast it. Also, Pact relies enormously on being able to see your opponent's hand unless you just want to blindly use it against a counterspell, in which case you might aswell play Belcher instead of ANT.


I'm still not sure if I want Pyroblasts, Confidants or Xantid Swarms in the 4-of sb slot though. Dark Confidant is good against Discard Rock type decks. Against UWx control Confidant and Swarm do the same thing = counter/STP me or you will lose very soon. Pyroblast is appealing to me because it can catch people off-guard by countering Counterbalance for 1 mana. Xantid's ability to hose the unsuspecting Merfolk player is very impressive though.

[alderon666]

SDT is great against discard too. You can play your LEDs and stack mana until you can play an Ad Nauseam off the top.

Xantid Swarm is good played as 3/4-of, played turn 1 or 2 it's the best setup against Merfolk for a turn 3 win.

The problem I run into while playing Ponder is: I play it once and, if it doesn't get me what I need to go off, I'm stuck drawing the top of my deck without any control of it. Sometimes I just can't win, because I never see another cantrip and just lose due to bad draws.

Top is one turn slower, it's not for those that just wanna cast a single protection a Ritual Ritual into Ad Nauseam. It adds various sinergies and a greater control over the top of your deck.

[klaus]

So atm there's a quite large tourney going on in Hanau, GER.
270 participants - the organizers already posted a meta breakdown:
here it is:
http://www.planetmtg.de/articles/artikel.html?id=5191
whoda thunk ANT would be the most played deck?! (almost 10%)

[badjuju]

So atm there's a quite large tourney going on in Hanau, GER.
270 participants - the organizers already posted a meta breakdown:
here it is:
http://www.planetmtg.de/articles/artikel.html?id=5191
whoda thunk ANT would be the most played deck?! (almost 10%)

With Canadian Thresh, Merfolk, and Countertop trailing close behind. Those combo players are going to have a loooong day :cry:

[Waikiki]

9 bant survival decks WTF? my deck is that popular in germany ?

[Nidd]

9 bant survival decks WTF? my deck is that popular in germany ?
Well, Noble Gro is a very popular deck here and I bet people are interested in modifying it, so that just seems natural to me.

[GreenOne]

9 bant survival decks WTF? my deck is that popular in germany ?
Nothing like Nourishing Lich.

[Nemavera]

Played Combo in Hanau, too; I went 7-2, really short report:

Round 1: Permanent Waves 2-0
Round 2: ProTresh 0-2
Round 3: IGGY Pop 2-1
Round 4: Merfolk 0-2
Round 5: Reanimator 2-0
Round 6: Goblins 2-0
Round 7: Merfolk 2-0
Round 8: ProTresh 2-1
Round 9: Dredge 2-0

I finished on place 13.
The deck was really cool, as always :>
I played the standard list with 9 U-fetchlands and my sideboard contained 3 Xantid Swarms and 3 Carpet of Flowers.

I'm going to write more, when I find some time;

[kamek]

Originally Posted by Waikiki
9 bant survival decks WTF? my deck is that popular in germany ?


I should say... 25 ANT?!?!
I can't really imagine it, crazy!! didn't know it was so "regular" in Ger...

[Nidd]

I should say... 25 ANT?!?!
I can't really imagine it, crazy!! didn't know it was so "regular" in Ger...
It normally isn't. From all Metas I've seen yet, there was plenty of Aggro, but combo was pretty rare.
Looks like I unintentiously jumped onto a bandwagon by building DDANT myself:rolleyes:

I would be interested in how many of these ANT decks were simple "Ritual, Ritual, AdN, WIN" and how many included DD.

[K1LO]

I should say... 25 ANT?!?!
I can't really imagine it, crazy!! didn't know it was so "regular" in Ger...

Some Vintage-players from today also participated on yesterdays tournament and opted for Tendrils-Combo, which may explain the high amount. I´ve even listened to two of them, saying that this just fits their playstyle.

I´ve been one of those players with straight ANT, just because I´m not that practiced with DD yet. From what I´ve seen, half of the others played NLS or hybrid versions.

It didn´t work well for me due to bad draws in match 1&2 and horrible matchups in round 3&4&5, after which I dropped. From my experience I can tell you, that the field was well prepared to fight against combo and therefore straight ANT was next to unplayable.

On the other hand I think that Tendrils-Combo is/was a clever choice for such a big tournament, but I definately should have played with Sensei´s Divining Top and DD or either LED-less with 4 Duress&PoN.


Greetz, K1LO

[Deviruchi]

I finished on place 13.
The deck was really cool, as always :>
I played the standard list with 9 U-fetchlands and my sideboard contained 3 Xantid Swarms and 3 Carpet of Flowers.

I'm going to write more, when I find some time;

Nice! I'm looking forward to read your report :) I'm very curious about your SB. I was thinking that if there is so much merfolks and ***** I have to find place for 3 Swarms and 3 Carpets but can't find space :frown:

[Nemavera]

Tournament Report Hanau;

I expected a metagame with lots of Canadian Treshhold, Merfolk, some CounterTop, quite some ANT and some Dredge.. The latter two, due to the Vintage event, which would start the next day, the former two, cause they're pretty easy to build and quite strong against ANT and don't have a horrible Dredge Matchup.
I wasn't sure whether to play NLS or DD/ANT, but due to the fact that I expected some more combo decks I decided to play DD/ANT, cause of chant superiority.
Around 50 hours testing later (against Merfolk and CT) I didn't have a real strong boarding plan against them; sometimes Carpet was just really awesome, sometimes it was really crap, especially against Merfolk. Moreover I tested many different boarding plans, against CT and by CT itself (i.e. boarding out Spellsnare for Pyroblast).
In the end I decided to split Xantid Swarm (he's awesome against Merfolk and in the mirror) and Carpet (which is really strong against CT and TempoFaeries and okay against Merfolk).

My final list:

2 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
2 Silence
4 Orim's Chant
1 Krosan Grip
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Ponder
4 Mystical Tutor
3 Infernal Tutor
1 Doomsday
1 Meditate
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony


SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 3 Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 Tropical Island
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Slaughter Pact
SB: 2 Doomsday

Round 1: Permament Waves

When I looked at the pairings I saw that I'm going to play against Anwar Ahmad. He's writing articles on starcitygames and the last article I remembered was about “permanent waves”, a hybrid of Solidarity and Spring Tide, so I put him on that deck.

G1: He wins the dice roll and we both mulligan to six. He drops an Island and plays a Ponder, confirming my assumption about his deck. We just drop lands till his T3. I eot mystical for silence. In my turn I drop a land, play silence, he plays an Impulse in response. He's got 5 cards in hand and decides to force my Silence. I try to go for it, cause he's just playing 4 Force and even if he'd have another, he would just have a single card in hand. He has got no second force and Rit, Rit => Ad Nauseam, sac LED in response for BBB wins the game.

Boarding plan:
+3x Xantid Swarm
+1x Tropical Island
+3x Carpet of Flowers

-2x Chrome Mox
-2x Infernal Tutor
-2x Cabal Rit
-1x Lotus Petal

G2: He's not really happy with his seven cards and mulligans again, I keep my seven. I resolve a Carpet on T2 and win on T3 after playing silence (which gets forced) and then Rit => Ad Nauseam which wins the second game.

1-0 2-0

Round 2: ProgenitusTresh

G1: We both keep our seven, he starts with Land, go. I play Ponder, go, seeing Chant, Ad Nauseam, Chant, draw Chant. He wants to drop a Top, but instead put a Counterbalance into play; he takes the Balance back and puts the Top into play. I draw the Ad Nauseam; my hand is now: Ad Nauseam, Chant, LED, Dark Rit, Lotus Petal, Flooded Strand, Tundra, Doomsday. I drop the Tundra, and in his Upkeep I chant him, so that he cannot drop his Counterbalance. I draw the second Chant and decide to go for it, cause I'm just loosing to Daze on Chant and then Force on Ad Nauseam. I play chant, he dazes. I do not pay for the Chant and proceed to play: Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, fetch, LED, Ad Nauseam, sac LED in response for BBB, he looks into his Top, then fetches, looks again, draws a card and forces my Ad Nauseam. The next turn he drops a goyf, which is transformed into Progenitus and I get beaten to death.

Boarding Plan:
+2x Krosan Grip
+1x Tropical Island
+3x Xantid Swarm (didn't see any swords)
+1x Slaughter Pact
+2x Doomsday

-2x Chrome Mox
-2x Infernal Tutor
-2x Cabal Ritual
-2x Lotus Petal
-1x Ad Nauseam

G2: He gets an early Goyf and has Top plus Relic in play. I have Silence, Doomsday, Meditate , Rit, Rit, LED and fuckin' Tendrils in hand. They are really horrible cause I'll never be able to use my LED to pay for daze or something, cause then he'd just exile them with Relic and that's nearly exactly what happened. I go for Silence (Force) and then Rit, Rit, LED, DD, and then I want to play my Meditate. He's got the Daze.

1-1 2-2

Round 3: Iggy Pop

G1: We both mulligan down to six. He starts with Leyline. I'm a bit confused and put him at first on Dregde. I drop a top and say go. He drops a Polluted Delta and says go, to. I realize I'm playing against Iggy Pop. Yet I don't find a chant effect and I do not have a Mystical. Top finds nothing and he goes for eot Mystical => IGG. He strips my hand for another three turns, each time with eot Mystical => IGG, then he plays IT => Helm of Obedience and mills me.

Boarding Plan:
-1x Krosan Grip

+1x Chain of Vapor

G2: He mulligans down to five, I mulligan down to six. I chant him T2 and go for Ad Nauseam and win this game. Yet he has shown some white mana (Tundra) so I expected some Chants)

Boarding Plan:
+2x Xantid Swarm

-2x don't really know what I took out

G3: I want to play the control part in this game, due to having more chants then he and I have Xantid Swarm, which will win in the end. He mulligans down to six, yet has no Leyline. I keep a hand with two Petals, Land, Top, Silence, Ponder, random card. I draw my 8th card: petal. I play land, ponder and see another petal. I'm a little bit afraid of discard, so I draw the petal and put all 4 into play. Next turn I drop my Top. On his T3 he goes for, LED, LED, IT and plays a Chant in response to his IT. I silence him. He searches for a unknown card (I assume Chant). He repeats this one more and I silence him again (searched with Mystical and drawn with top) I develop my mana and I'm searching for a Xantid Swarm, while always keeping a Mystical in hand or a Chant on top of my lib. On turn 10 or so he drops a leyline, and I'm happy about it, cause I just played 2 Silence till that point and no Orim's Chant. With Leyline in play my Chant cannot be extirpated. He trys his move (IT, in response Chant) again, I chant back. In this moment the judge calls the extra turns. I still don't have a Swarm to be protected. So I try to go for it, Rit, Rit => Ad Nauseam after my chant has resolved. He's really surprised and asks me whether Ad Nauseam is an instant. I cannot show him the card, cause I'm just playing japanese foils (they're really awesome, by the way :> ). The judge explains that Ad Nauseam is an instant, so I draw around 15 cards. In my turn I put all mana into play and a Xantid Swarm (Turn 1). I chant him in his Turn (Turn 2). In my turn I want to attack with Swarm, he chants me with kicker (Chant Nr. 4; Turn 3). I chant him again in his Turn (T4). This time my Swarm is allowed to attack. I build a Doomsday Pile, sac 4 LED's in response and spin Tops around 30 times, then I play Tendrils of Agony for around 60. It was really an awesome game!

2-1 4-3

Round 4: Merfolk

G1: There is not much I can tell you, I really got destroyed. He plays 4x Force, 4x Daze, 4x Cursecatcher, 4x Spellstutter Sprite, 2x Spell Pierce, 2x Spellsnare and 2x Vendillion Clique mainboard!

Boarding Plan:
+3x Xantid Swarm
+1x Tropical Island
+3x Carpet of Flowers

-2x Chrome Mox
-2x Infernal Tutor
-2x Cabal Ritual
-1x Lotus Petal

G2: I don't draw a Swarm in this game and get destroyed again. After the game he shows me, that he boarded in some Mindbreak Traps....Yeah, he really needs more combo hate -.-

2-2 4-5

Round 5: Reanimator

Quite a funny story before I start with reporting: We sit down and communicate in english for around 15 minutes, then I ask him: “Where are you from?” He answers: “Germany”. “Oh, then we talk in german, too” :>

G1: He wins the dice roll and begins with U-Sea => Thoughtseize (oh no, Team America or Black Tempo Thresh :( ) and complains about not knowing what to pick, cause he's usually playing other formats. In the end he decides for Mystical. I drop a land => Top. He plays careful study (oh yes, reanimator:> ) I mystical eot for Silence and win on my turn via Ad Nauseam.

Boarding Plan:
-1x Krosan Grip
-2x Chrome Mox
-1x Infernal Tutor

+1x Chain of Vapor
+3x Xantid Swarm

G2: He starts with duress and I'm really afraid, cause I kept: Land, Top, Mystical, Dark Rit, Cabal Rit, Silence. He takes the mystical and I'm happy :> He doesn't do a lot, except for thoughtseizing a Dark Ritual and then extirpating a Brainstorm and my Ritual. I drop a Xantid Swarm, he plays Thoughtseize on himself and discards a Sphinx of the Steelwind, revealing. Reanimate, blue card, Force. He reanimates the Sphinx and goes down to 6. I attack with Swarm, he wants to block, I hold him back and ask him whether Xantid Swarm's trigger resolves. It resolves, I mystical for Chain of Vapor, draw the Chain via Top and bounce the Sphinx. Few Turns later I win via Ad Nauseam into Tendrils.

3-2 6-5

Round 6: Goblins

G1: He starts with Mountain => Vial. I kept a hand with Mystical, Top, double LED. I drop Island => Top. He plays a Wasteland and a Mogg War Marshal. He's dead on Turn 2.

Boarding Plan:
-1x Krosan Grip
-2x Silence
+1x Chain of Vapor
+1x Echoing Truth
+1x Hurkyl's Recall

G2: I keep a hand of: Doomsday, LED, LED, Meditate, Ritual, Land, Lotus Petal. He goes for Mountain => Lackey. I draw my card for that turn: Top. He doesn't have another turn.

4-2 8-5

Round 7: Merfolk

G1: I have double Chant, so I play a fake Chant, which he uses a Cursecatcher on; I pay very selfconfident, he forces. Next turn I play another Chant, it gets forced again, but I proceed to win via Rit, Rit, Lotus Petal => Ad Nauseam.

G2: I play another fake Chant in here, he dazes, then forces. I resolve a Carpet of Flowers, which he considers to counter, so I know he's got a second Force. He drops another Island (the third). I play an unprotected Ad Nauseam, he forces. The next Turn I resolve a Doomsday and win via spinning Tops into Tendrils.

5-2 10-5

Round 8: ProTresh

G1: He win's the dice roll and starts with Forest (yeah!) => Noble Hierarch (oh no! :( ). We both just drop land and on T3 he says: “Let's try it” and plays a Natural Order. I think for a moment, then say: “Okay, resolves”. I mystical eot for a Silence, play it in my turn, he dazes, I pay and win via IGG-Loop.

Boarding Plan (here I did something wrong that costs me the next game):
+2x Krosan Grip
+3x Xantid Swarm (didn't see any Swords)
+1x Tropical Island
+1x Slaughter Pact
+2x Doomsday

-2x Chrome Mox
-2x Infernal Tutor
-2x Cabal Ritual
-1x Ill-Gotten Gains (mistake!)
-2x Lotus Petal

G2: He mulligans down to five, I keep. I grip a Balance, and Slaughter Pact a Goyf. He has no pressure and on turn 5 I play Silence, he daze's, I pay and go for LED, LED, IT, saccing both LED in respone, searching my lib for IGG....and I don't find it -.- instead I only find Ad Nauseam. Okay I have still one black floting and a land drop and untapped Tundra and I have 17 life; I reveal: Doomsday, Tendrils, Flooded, Krosan Grip, Polluted, Meditate, Brainstorm, Doomsday => dead.

Boarding Plan:
-1x Ad Nauseam
+1x Ill-Gotten Gains.

G3: He mulligans down to four and says “2 Lands, Counterbalance, Top”. He starts with fetch => Hierarch. I kept my seven and drop Island => top. He draws his card and drops a Counterbalance. I drop a fetchland. He draws and drops Top... I mystical in response for Krosan Grip, his Counterbalance reveals a Flooded Strand. I don't find a thrid land for around three turns, but he doesn't do anything relevant, besides starting beatdown with a lonely Hierarch. I grip his Balance, slaughter pact a Rhox War Monk, he draws and drops another Counterbalance. I top, fetch, top, fetch, top and yeah, there's the K-Grip! I grip his Balance and win via DD.

6-2 10-6

Round 9: Dredge

G1: He wins the dive roll and mulligans down to five. He's dead on turn 2.

Boarding Plan:
-1x Krosan Grip
-1x Silence

+1x Hurkyls Recall
+1x Echoing Truth

G2: He's dead on turn 2 again.

7-2 12-6

In the end I finish on place 13 and get a voucher for 25 Euro. I turn it in at the local shop for a foil Krosan Grip and a german lim. booster (a friend convinced me) and I open a fresh mint Underground Sea! Made my day! :>

Props:
- the deck, Stormcombo is really awesome and really strong
- meeting new, nice people
- opening an Underground Sea
- 270 player attending

Slops:
- missing Top 8, due to opp score (T8 were really awesome for Combo http://www.planetmtg.de/articles/artikel.html?id=5208 )
- some people with 7-2 missed even Top 16 and didn't get anything

[mercc]

Good report. That we like!

The classic question. Was Doomsday making it's moneys worth?

[Nemavera]

Doomsday is really great. Though I didn't have to play through MM or Teegs, DD allows you to take the control part in many matchups. I'm going to play Doomsday until they ban it or Top.

[CUB3X]

Couple questions

1) How did you get a german unlimited pack for less than $25 unless im missing something??

2) Even though I didn't see you cast DD once in your report, you still opt to keep playing it?

3) How did Capet of Flowers do for you?

Some general questions,

I realize this is a noob question but why is Xantid Swarm good in mirror? Just to stop chant/silence?

[Nidd]

R6 G2: How do you think he ended the game?

[emidln]

2) Even though I didn't see you cast DD once in your report, you still opt to keep playing it?

I saw 6 times not counting games where he said "I just win."

[badjuju]

Less than stellar finish for me running DDANT at the SCG 5K, going 2-2-1 drop. My list is PF's mainboard -1 Bayou +1 Tundra, and predicting that the meta would be mostly Zoo and Merfolk (partially true), my sideboard was as follows:

4x Xantid Swarm
2x Doomsday
2x Krosan Grip
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Pact of Negation
1x Silence
1x Echoing Truth
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Tropical Island

Super quick rundown, I'll probably write a bit more on stormboards:

Tempo Thresh (UG) 1-1-1
Pikula (BWg) 2-1
Tempo Thresh (UGr) 2-0
Ichorid (LED) 1-2
Faeries (Ubr) 0-2

Few notes:

-For reference, I won 3 times with DD and 3 times with AdN.

-Yay a bunch of blue matchups :rolleyes: . I'm actually fairly confident against tempo now though because of how strong our board is. We literally become the control player with an inevitable win.

-Another note on the U-based matchup - I don't think I'd ever side out AdN again. They usually keep disruption heavy hands instead of beatdown hands because they expect us to push through a quick win, meaning our lifetotals will usually be safe enough.

-I lost to Ichorid because he turn 1'd me game 2 and then turn 3'd me game 3, after I had cast two cantrips and Chant-walked him into no kill spells while holding LED, Dark Ritual, and Lotus Petal in hand.

-Xantid Swarm was the MVP today. 11 "chant" effects is really too many for most tempo-based decks to deal with.

-Was happy with the deck. My first time in a tournament playing storm, but I enjoyed the thrill. I will definitely bring the same list (maybe dropping the MB Krosan Grip for another ponder) to my next tournament on the 25th.

[Rico Suave]

I saw 6 times not counting games where he said "I just win."

I counted 4 times.

I also counted 3 times where DD lost the game.

Ironically, one of the times DD won was game 3 after the DD package killed him in game 2 (revealing 2 Doomsdays and a Meditate off AN).

Something else to note: DD was not mentioned winning any game 1's. They were only mentioned in games 2 or 3 (and there were 2 extra copies of DD in the SB).

[Edit - I also didn't notice at first, but he even boarded OUT Ad Nauseam more than once.]


Another note on the U-based matchup - I don't think I'd ever side out AdN again. They usually keep disruption heavy hands instead of beatdown hands because they expect us to push through a quick win, meaning our lifetotals will usually be safe enough.

Generally, even when facing a beatdown draw, I don't find that I'd ever want to be without access to at least one AN in the deck.

[alderon666]

I also counted 3 times where DD lost the game.

Ironically, one of the times DD won was game 3 after the DD package killed him in game 2 (revealing 2 Doomsdays and a Meditate off AN).


That is just marginal. While the converted mana cost is higher you can't just analyse it that way with such a small sample of games. Even without the DD package you can just flip Tendrils, IGG, IT, IT, Cabal Ritual.

What I really would like to know is how many games he thought SDT was better/worse than Ponder, now that's relevant.

[Rico Suave]

That is just marginal. While the converted mana cost is higher you can't just analyse it that way with such a small sample of games. Even without the DD package you can just flip Tendrils, IGG, IT, IT, Cabal Ritual.

What I really would like to know is how many games he thought SDT was better/worse than Ponder, now that's relevant.

Analyzing is not about what can happen. It is about what actually did happen.

The simple fact of the matter is running a bunch of Grips, Doomsdays, and other expensive spells makes AN far more likely to fizzle. Guess what? It did fizzle.

It's one thing to write it off as bad luck, but it's a mistake to write it off as bad luck when the deck's construction was a critical part of why he got "unlucky."

[Elf_Ascetic]

Analyzing is not about what can happen. It is about what actually did happen.

The simple fact of the matter is running a bunch of Grips, Doomsdays, and other expensive spells makes AN far more likely to fizzle. Guess what? It did fizzle.

It's one thing to write it off as bad luck, but it's a mistake to write it off as bad luck when the deck's construction was a critical part of why he got "unlucky."

You're blaming DD decks for running Grip. DD list can be done without a grip as well, with only DD and Meditate being more expensive post-AdN.

I think the argument isn't the slightly higher CC, it's the ability to go into AdN with some mana floating. (the more mana you have, the lower the fizzlechance is, obv). Straight AnT list are clearly better at doing so, because of Cabal Ritual instead of Meditate, and the option to cast Infernal Tutor instead of DD post-AdN.

[Nidd]

You're blaming DD decks for running Grip. DD list can be done without a grip as well, with only DD and Meditate being more expensive post-AdN.

I think the argument isn't the slightly higher CC, it's the ability to go into AdN with some mana floating. (the more mana you have, the lower the fizzlechance is, obv). Straight AnT list are clearly better at doing so, because of Cabal Ritual instead of Meditate, and the option to cast Infernal Tutor instead of DD post-AdN.
Do I have to worry now? I play DDANT with Meditate and some Cabal Rituals. May I ask for your list?

[alderon666]

Analyzing is not about what can happen. It is about what actually did happen.

The simple fact of the matter is running a bunch of Grips, Doomsdays, and other expensive spells makes AN far more likely to fizzle. Guess what? It did fizzle.

It's one thing to write it off as bad luck, but it's a mistake to write it off as bad luck when the deck's construction was a critical part of why he got "unlucky."

Yeah he fucked up, boarding in all those 3's and then trying to go off Nauseam creates a greater chance to fizzle. Even though he had very bad luck there.

What I was saying is that it's not an argument on the whole DD vs. ANT discussion, we all know Ad Nauseam is worse in DD builds. What really interests me is the Ponder vs. Top tradeoff.

[Nemavera]

I won more than 3 Games via DD and I really love the card, it is really awesome. I think I won every single game where I resolved a Top, but the first game against Iggy Pop. I'd never play without Top again and the same is true for Doomsday. Both cards increase the powerlevel of the deck by a great margin and whenever I play combo without these cards I miss them hard. To my mind Top >>>>> Ponder.
Yeah as I already mentioned taking out IGG and keeping AdN was a mistake. Yet, especially pure AdN lists rely on it that much, and they have to board K-Grip vs. CB, too. So they are much more likely to fizzle, cause they just have the AdN route.

I got the booster pack for 15€. It was a german limited (fbb) booster pack.

Carpet won a game against Merfolk and I was glad to have it, cause CT was played really often.

Xantid Swarm wins games by shutting off your opponents chants in the mirror, so that you can use all of your chants offensively to disrupt your opponent. You just drop a Swarm and win the turn it's able to attack.

[B.C.]

I'd never play without Top again and the same is true for Doomsday.

I'm pretty much converted at this point too. Top/DD slow the deck down by about 0.5 turns, but what they take away in speed they more than make up for in versatility. Giving yourself possibilities in the mid-late game is pretty key.

[emidln]

Can someone explain why Xantid Swarm is good in the mirror please? Is it just to prevent their chants?

Yes. It lets you be offensive without actually drawing your Ad Nauseam so you can end step it. Otherwise, you need two chants to make sure that you can chant them into their own chant and still protect yourself on their turn. This is why extirpate is sometimes good in the mirror and why the hand information that Duress/Thoughtseize provides is also really strong. Being able to drop a guy like Dark Confidant or Xantid Swarm while still threatening Orim's Chant is huge.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I won more than 3 Games via DD and I really love the card, it is really awesome. I think I won every single game where I resolved a Top, but the first game against Iggy Pop. I'd never play without Top again and the same is true for Doomsday. Both cards increase the powerlevel of the deck by a great margin and whenever I play combo without these cards I miss them hard. To my mind Top >>>>> Ponder.
Yeah as I already mentioned taking out IGG and keeping AdN was a mistake. Yet, especially pure AdN lists rely on it that much, and they have to board K-Grip vs. CB, too. So they are much more likely to fizzle, cause they just have the AdN route.

I got the booster pack for 15€. It was a german limited (fbb) booster pack.

Carpet won a game against Merfolk and I was glad to have it, cause CT was played really often.

Xantid Swarm wins games by shutting off your opponents chants in the mirror, so that you can use all of your chants offensively to disrupt your opponent. You just drop a Swarm and win the turn it's able to attack.

QFT!!! Well said, finally someone has taken the time to understand how DD works and then run it!

On another very positive note, at my local cardshop, one of Andy Probasco's good friends (can't remember his name but we call him Amadeus because he looks like Mozart) borrowed DDANT and made top 8 with it out of about 32ish people. Before the tournament he asked me about DD stacks and I told him 3 then just said, count your mana and storm and you will be fine as long as you just anticipate how you are going to draw into the stacks. He made top 8 with limited knowledge of combo and even won a game (albeit very slowly) with a very complex DD stack where he had to IGG first then regain Thresh and cast another Cabal Ritual into DD with Meditate in hand and BB floating with Petal in play. I was watching and saw he had the win, and he eventually saw it as well!

Its very good to see people playing DD and understanding the versatility! On a side note, I scroll past it and haven't read one of his posts in a while, but Rico Suave is on my ignore list, please stop quoting him so no one has to read what he said again :)

[mercc]

That is just marginal. While the converted mana cost is higher you can't just analyse it that way with such a small sample of games. Even without the DD package you can just flip Tendrils, IGG, IT, IT, Cabal Ritual.

What I really would like to know is how many games he thought SDT was better/worse than Ponder, now that's relevant.

If you are playing the version with LED that can happen. But if you play linux list or mine, then that cant happen. It's very easy. Count all the CC in your deck and get the average CC, that is the percentage that will determine it all.

----------------------

Why not play a DD list without ANT. Or maybe a DD/IGG-loop list? This is where emidl comes in, Skip AdN

[mercc]

Its very good to see people playing DD and understanding the versatility! On a side note, I scroll past it and haven't read one of his posts in a while, but Rico Suave is on my ignore list, please stop quoting him so no one has to read what he said again :)

That's a fantastic idea to do in a forum where people share opinions and really, work towards the same goal, winning with a combodeck.

I hope politicians start doing this, ignoring each other when they have a different opinion.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I totally agree, things would be so much better!!!!

[Davetradint]

Look at this!!

3 ANT Top8 amongst 136 players!!
Needless to say that 2 of them play DD stuff.

http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?event=Open+Nederlands+Kampioenschap+Legacy+2009

Curious...

[CUB3X]

And all 3 played SDT in their builds. The non-DD build playing 4 BS 4 Ponder and 2 Tops.

The non-DD list looks really strange.

Silence over Duress, and only 2 Chrome Moxes

And can someone tell me what the reason is for Hurykl's Recall in the sideboard is??

[badjuju]

And can someone tell me what the reason is for Hurykl's Recall in the sideboard is??

The real question is the 4x Snow-covered Mountains. Am I missing something here or is that a typo or possibly to conceal tech? No extra DD in boards either.

Also, Hurkyl's Recall is the obvious answer against chalice decks.

The DD MBs are pretty much the same, as expected. I am also going to make the -1 Krosan Grip +1 Ponder mb. There's just not as much countertop where I am.

[alderon666]

And all 3 played SDT in their builds. The non-DD build playing 4 BS 4 Ponder and 2 Tops.

The non-DD list looks really strange.

Silence over Duress, and only 2 Chrome Moxes

And can someone tell me what the reason is for Hurykl's Recall in the sideboard is??

Silence is better in most cases unless your opponent is dropping permanent-based disruption on you(Runed Halo, Chalice of the Void). Silence is good against non disruptive decks (goblins, elfs) also because you can Chantwalk them, I've won game casting 3 upkeep chant effects and then going off on turn 4.

Chrome Moxes are there for the sole porpouse of making your AdN better. They suck most of the time.

Against Staxx Matchups, anything playing artifact based disruption like Ethersworn Canonist, etc.


We play AdN so we can have an aggressive way to win the game. It's Plan C, being DD plan A and IGG loop plan B. In some games where you opponent just is not applying enough pressure you can just play a AdN with zero mana and win.

[GreenOne]

The real question is the 4x Snow-covered Mountains. Am I missing something here or is that a typo or possibly to conceal tech?
Obviously it's to bring in extra lands against black land destruction decks, and to feint a transformational SB, and to become awesomely immune to choke.

[Elf_Ascetic]

And all 3 played SDT in their builds. The non-DD build playing 4 BS 4 Ponder and 2 Tops.

The non-DD list looks really strange.

Silence over Duress, and only 2 Chrome Moxes

And can someone tell me what the reason is for Hurykl's Recall in the sideboard is??

That's our team. Or, 3 of them at least. Recall is the ultimate answer for multiple Chalices, Thorns and Trinisphere.

Both DD-ANT lists played each other in the quarterfinals, the winner losing to Reanimate (Force, Thoughtseize en Extirpate = no fun). ANT lost to Dreadstill in the quaters.

Bahamuth is one of these pilots, and he T4'd this weekend again, now with a non-DD list. Figuring out if DD improves the deck is hard, so it seems..

[Bahamuth]

We board in the Snow-Covered mountains to pretend to have a transformational sideboard to mono red Quinn.

[practical joke]

That's our team. Or, 3 of them at least. Recall is the ultimate answer for multiple Chalices, Thorns and Trinisphere.

Both DD-ANT lists played each other in the quarterfinals, the winner losing to Reanimate (Force, Thoughtseize en Extirpate = no fun). ANT lost to Dreadstill in the quaters.

Bahamuth is one of these pilots, and he T4'd this weekend again, now with a non-DD list. Figuring out if DD improves the deck is hard, so it seems..

iona, would like to have a word with you.

I have to admit, it was one of the most exciting matches I ever played.

As far as I've played against the deck, played it and saw it's matches. doomsday does give the deck more options to choose from and with with SDT, Brainstorm fetch and the whole package it has the capability to find answers easier. though it does seem to come with a little loss of speed.

[citanul]

The real question is the 4x Snow-covered Mountains. Am I missing something here or is that a typo or possibly to conceal tech? No extra DD in boards either.

Also, Hurkyl's Recall is the obvious answer against chalice decks.

The DD MBs are pretty much the same, as expected. I am also going to make the -1 Krosan Grip +1 Ponder mb. There's just not as much countertop where I am.

Dutch Legacy Champs?
The mountains are a tech they wanted to be kept secret for the other tournaments. It's Carpet of Flowers.