[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

[mercc]

Hello?

Where is the list with 2-3(4) Doomsday? And Infernal tutor + IGG as wincons and totally skipping the randomness of AdN thus only requiring 2 life to go off.

[badjuju]

Dutch Legacy Champs?
The mountains are a tech they wanted to be kept secret for the other tournaments. It's Carpet of Flowers.

lol I was about to say...

Mind games must be too strong in the Netherlands.

[emidln]

Hello?

Where is the list with 2-3(4) Doomsday? And Infernal tutor + IGG as wincons and totally skipping the randomness of AdN thus only requiring 2 life to go off.

Look at how the hybrid boards. In matchups where it can afford to lose some speed, the hybrid becomes DDFT.

[CUB3X]

bahamuth, you placed with both a DD build and a non-dd build. what is your opinion on the difference. is one strictly better? or only better in certain metas?

[Bahamuth]

bahamuth, you placed with both a DD build and a non-dd build. what is your opinion on the difference. is one strictly better? or only better in certain metas?

I'm not sure yet. I like both lists. I tried out a list with 2 Top and 6 Chant main and 2 more Top side. That way, I can side in 2 Top and 3 Grip against CB giving me a DDFTesque plan which is extremely strong. It's crucial to have Top when you board in Grip. I'm also pretty posivite it's the right call to leave in the AdN. Remember that, especially against blue decks, this deck doesn't always need a engine to win. You can often with because your opponent Brainstorms and FoWs your Chant, and you just go with IT--> IT-->ToA.

I never really missed Doomsday sunday (where I went 6-0 losing the top 4 to Merfolk. I'm just always losing to Merfolk, it's awful.). I'm probably going to continue with this list some more and figure out where I can put my 4th Swarm best.

[CUB3X]

Interesting, how about the tops? Do you think the maindeck should have atleast two tops without doomsday?

[Bahamuth]

Interesting, how about the tops? Do you think the maindeck should have atleast two tops without doomsday?

2 Just seems like a good number. I don't want to see more than one in quite a lot of matchups. I prefer to have Tops mainboard, because they are just so good. It's awesome to flip them with AdN often.

[CUB3X]

would you be willing to post your dd less build that you ran? i ant to compare my list.

[Davetradint]

Saw this list in deckcheck...

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31259

Hybrid DDANT - NLS?

Anyway it doesn't pack Duress.

One question, can someone share his/her manabase? Why are ppl moving from 8 fetches to 9? Is anyone else maintaining Tropical Island?

Thanks!!

[Piceli89]

Saw this list in deckcheck...

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31259

Hybrid DDANT - NLS?

Anyway it doesn't pack Duress.

One question, can someone share his/her manabase? Why are ppl moving from 8 fetches to 9? Is anyone else maintaining Tropical Island?

Thanks!!

I'm currently working on a list like that, with the exception of staying into the 4 colours range,and playing a split between Chants and Duresses. I'm calling it Fetchland DDTES. Ah, it also has different sb tools.

Citanul (Shaun Pawels)'s list is surely interesting, but sometimes doing the switch between the green and red package isn't possible, because you'd like to stick with some cards from both the parts. Plus, I have the feeling that burning Wish works better when you can play more aggressively with Duress, since it can also take away mass removal and allow you for a quick EtW to seal the game.
Also, the 8 or 9 fetchlands issue is kinda subjective, some people want to go for the 9 configuration because they do not find a 7th land that is worth sticking in, so they prefer to have a land that can virtually provide any of the colours you need in the situation, and an additional shuffle effect. I agree with him in having opted for the 9th fetchland in his list, because those duals +island should be already enough to avoid colour problems.

[kicks_422]

NLS is DDANT with Burning Wishes. That deck there is a pretty standard version of it.

[Piceli89]

NLS is DDANT with Burning Wishes. That deck there is a pretty standard version of it.

NLS doesn't pack Chants, usually. It's UBrg, with discard as maindeck protection.

[kicks_422]

NLS doesn't pack Chants, usually. It's UBrg, with discard as maindeck protection.

Oh, right. Missed the Chants. So it's NLS with Chants instead of Duress.

Wow, all these decks having different names with just a few cards different between them. It's like Vintage now.

[alderon666]

Burning Wish is a fucking good card.

It really speeds up the deck, gives you more virtual finishers and allow you to play Empty the Warrens, which sometimes on the first or second turn is as good as Tendrils for 20.

The problem is that you need UBW, then you need green for Krosan Grip and Xantid swarm. Adding red turns it into 5 color storm, for that's just stretching the mana base too much.

Chants are just superior to discard most of the time. That's why I would never play straight NLS, 5 discard spells as protection just don't cut it for me. They still leave you vunerable to stuff like Spell Snare, Stifle, etc.

I don't know what the solution is.

[CUB3X]

I know someone who plays a 5 color NLS deck. I've seen multiple people do it. Typically the manabase involves Gemstone Mine, City of Brass, and duals. It plays Chants for white, black is obvious, burning wish for red, blue is obvious, and then grips/swarms sideboard for green.

[alderon666]

I know someone who plays a 5 color NLS deck. I've seen multiple people do it. Typically the manabase involves Gemstone Mine, City of Brass, and duals. It plays Chants for white, black is obvious, burning wish for red, blue is obvious, and then grips/swarms sideboard for green.

Tops and Brainstorm just get nerfed into oblivion if you don't run Fetchlands.

[badjuju]

I know someone who plays a 5 color NLS deck. I've seen multiple people do it. Typically the manabase involves Gemstone Mine, City of Brass, and duals. It plays Chants for white, black is obvious, burning wish for red, blue is obvious, and then grips/swarms sideboard for green.

Sounds more like TES to me.

[citanul]

Saw this list in deckcheck...

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31259

Hybrid DDANT - NLS?

Anyway it doesn't pack Duress.

One question, can someone share his/her manabase? Why are ppl moving from 8 fetches to 9? Is anyone else maintaining Tropical Island?


Stop stealing my decklist!

[Nidd]

Any comments on my list? I guess it looks very standard, but well, I just started playing the deck... if all works out, I'm going to play it tomorrow at a GPT.

Manabase//

2 Island
1 Swamp
2 u Sea
1 Tundra
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest


Rituals//

4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual


Card Quality//

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 SDT


Tutors//

3 Infernal Tutor
3 Mystical Tutor


Mana Artifacts//

4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Chrome Mox


Protection//

4 Orim's Chant
2 Silence


Storm Engines//

1 Doomsday
1 Meditate
1 IGG
1 Ad Nauseam


Tentacle Rape//

1 Tendrils



Sideboard//

1 Tropical Island
4 Xantid Swarm
2 Deathmark
2 Duress
1 Angel's Grace
1 Krosan Grip
1 Chain of Vapor
3 Tormod's Crypt


As for the SB, I don't know whether I should run 2 Deathmark or maybe do a split 1 Slaughter Pact + 1 Deathmark.
I also don't know whether a second Grip or a Wipe Away would be necessary.

Maybe someone with more experience could help me out...?

[Bahamuth]

You mainboard is fine. I'd play a 15th land over the 4th Ponder. 15 land just feels better and makes you a little more consistent.

Your sideboard is a little crappy. Crypt is really bad. You just want to race anything you want to board Crypt against. Maybe Reanimator is an exception, but I think bounce is just about as good as Crypt in that matchup and bounce is much better in other cases. I see no need for 2 spotremoval cards. I also see almost no reason not to run Slaughter Pact instead of Deathmark. The fact that it costs 0 has won me quite some games. Also, unless no one plays CB in your meta, I'd play 3 Grip. Angel's Grace is crap. I'm not sure what the Duresses are for. If you want more protection sb, I suggest adding one more Chant instead.

4 Swarm
1 Trop
1 Chant
3 Grip
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Slaughter Pact
1 open slot (maybe a Plains if there's Tempo Thresh in your meta)

[Nidd]

I'm doing fine with 14 lands, but maybe testing will show me that another land is better than another Ponder.

I had the same feeling for the 3 Crypts, nice that someone could confirm this.
Well, we have 2 BW decks here in our Meta which both run Tidehollow Sculller. Slaughter Pact sucks against him, but costs less against normal hate bears, I know.
Is Echoing Truth that good? Against which matchups is it better than other bounce? Mainly Ichorid and Storm with EtW, right?
The Duress are there for the mirror, though 1 Silence might be enough. Needs more testing.
Adding a second land to the SB makes me hesitant. I know it can be vital, but I got no clue whether it would be worth it. We have 1 Merfolk player that sometimes plays 4 Stifle, sometimes doesn't and 1 who plays TA or Canadian. Gah, i guess I just confirmed it being useful.

Thanks for the help!

[Bahamuth]

I'm doing fine with 14 lands, but maybe testing will show me that another land is better than another Ponder.

I had the same feeling for the 3 Crypts, nice that someone could confirm this.
Well, we have 2 BW decks here in our Meta which both run Tidehollow Sculller. Slaughter Pact sucks against him, but costs less against normal hate bears, I know.
Is Echoing Truth that good? Against which matchups is it better than other bounce? Mainly Ichorid and Storm with EtW, right?
The Duress are there for the mirror, though 1 Silence might be enough. Needs more testing.
Adding a second land to the SB makes me hesitant. I know it can be vital, but I got no clue whether it would be worth it. We have 1 Merfolk player that sometimes plays 4 Stifle, sometimes doesn't and 1 who plays TA or Canadian. Gah, i guess I just confirmed it being useful.

Thanks for the help!

Against anything that isn't blue, you want to board out Chants for bounce. I prefer Echoing Truths because they randomly bounce multiples and they get around Chalice at one, which is quite a common hate card people play.

I think more Chants are better for the mirror than Duress. The opponent is going to have a hard time when you have more Chants than he does.

[Nelis]

We board in the Snow-Covered mountains to pretend to have a transformational sideboard to mono red Quinn.

No that's because you did not want to let the world know they were actually Carpet of Flowers. Well now they know!

..............................................Again!

[alderon666]

Now they got me thinking, is Carpet of Flowers just plain better than Xantid Swarm?

Xantid is awesome against Merfolk.

Carpet is awesome against Tempo ***** and good against Merfolk.

Xantid shuts down all their counters, but it eats removal against *****.

The Carpet turn Daze/Cursecatch/Stilfe(to a degree) into a joke.

So, is it better to just play 4 Carpets and pray you get more Chants than they get FoWs?

[Piceli89]

Burning Wish is a fucking good card.

It really speeds up the deck, gives you more virtual finishers and allow you to play Empty the Warrens, which sometimes on the first or second turn is as good as Tendrils for 20.

The problem is that you need UBW, then you need green for Krosan Grip and Xantid swarm. Adding red turns it into 5 color storm, for that's just stretching the mana base too much.

Chants are just superior to discard most of the time. That's why I would never play straight NLS, 5 discard spells as protection just don't cut it for me. They still leave you vunerable to stuff like Spell Snare, Stifle, etc.

I don't know what the solution is.

It's not that withot green, you can't go anywhere. Pyroblasts are as good as Xantid as protection, of course they do not provide Chant effects but they are far more flexible and can kill anything, from Cursecatcher to Vendilion Clique, and do not require a turn to operate. Lately, I've also noticed that more and more blue decks are keeping removal spells g2 against combo, because they expect some switchoff into creature protection/utility (Dark confidant, Xantid Swarm, Vexing Shusher). The only deck against which I see Xantid being totally busted is Merfolks, but you should already be able to beat a sb'ed Merfolk.
Plus, Blasts can get rid of Counterbalance on the spot. Often CB+Top players hold hands without any counter but with CB because they think that CB is the ultimate weapon against us, that can win them the game alone. Here a good package of Duress+Pyroblast can really help you in both discarding or countering it, a thing that Chant effects don't do. And waiting too much to hold the Krosan Grip to destroy it is a clear sign that you hold one of the traditional cc3 CB hate combo uses to pack (Wipe Away, KGrip), so the more time you give to them, the more they understand y have of them in hand. Of course KGrip is > to Pyroblast since Split Second, but you can get it even with Pyroblast.

That said, I'd like to show my last DDTES list. The maindeck is practically Citanul's one with small tweaks, but the sideboard has some tools to fight against all the Tiers.

// Lands

4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [A] Underground Sea
2 [b] Tundra
1 [b] Volcanic Island
1 [PT] Swamp (2)
1 [UG] Island

// Spells

1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
1 [TE] Meditate
1 [WL] Doomsday

4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
2 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
2 [JU] Burning Wish

4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [MM] Brainstorm
2 [LRW] Ponder

2 [PS] Orim's Chant
1 [M10] Silence
3 [US] Duress

4 [b] Dark Ritual
2 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
2 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal


// Sideboard
SB: 1 [b] Volcanic Island
SB: 1 [WL] Doomsday
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [M10] Silence
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [10E] Deathmark
SB: 1 [US] Meltdown
SB: 1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [AQ] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [PS] Rushing River

-As you can see, it's DDANT with Burning Wishes to have a comfortable shortcut in the form of EtW and also to not suffer crap like Extract or Extirpate on Tendrils (happens, especially now that combo is on the steady rise), and also an out to some things like Gaddock Teeg in g1. Plus, with BWish you rise your threat density a lot, and enables double IGG loops by wishing for the Infernal tutor and going IGG, OR wishing for an IGG having already an IT in the yard, and double looping your opponent out. But you already knew this, didn't you? ^^

-Differently from Citanul, I opted to mix the protection between Duress and Chant because I felt 6 Chants sometimes slowed down the deck too much, in the fact that you're going to cast them in the big turn (except for bluffs, of course). Duress not only can be cast before, it also nets you information about the opponent's deck, and make you know the proper way to go off (if I see Spell Snare, I'll try to Doomsday-kill him, ecc).

-I also prefer to have Duress rather than Chant against things like, say, Zoo. While the argument that Chant slow them down a turn can be accepted, it is partially true because you're almost never going to chant them on turn1, since you do not know what they're playing (in the first game),with the risk of wasting a potential protection against blue; usually Zoo makes a critter on the 1st turn, so you can Chant them the turn after preventing to play, say, a Goyf, but it's not a great deal considering that they'll just beat yu with their Nacatl, and play the Goyf the turn after.
Duress instead can get rid of Burn spells, and most of all lets you know if you can go for a quick Ad Nauseam victory without the inconvenient of getting a Bolt+Fireblast when you're low on life.

-Plus, Duress is more synergic with Burning Wish when you're going to make 10+ tokens, and need to know if they have a mass removal in hand. That's a thing Chant can't really do.


-The manabase probably needs still some tweaking, the greatest indecision is whether or not to cut a Tundra for a Scrubland, because Scrubland allows you to bluff a double chant or to cast a Dark ritual in response to a daze on Chant to trick the opponent. The Swamp is more probably going to stay there, in the end it's a solid UB base with only 3 cards for white, and 2 for red, so differently from the 6 chants version (where the white presence must be emphatized, thus the lack of a second basic), this list can afford a basic swamp.

For the Sb:
-I tried to mix The 16th land there will help you finding red more easily, as well as supporting Meltdown and giving you another land against land destruction decks. Increasing your land count is something very important against these decks, where 15 is usually not enough to avoid being manascrewed or stuck on only 1 land. Perhaps that could be a Badlands, but if I switch the Tundra to a Scrubland (which I have done now, btw), I should be comfortable in having enough black lands.

-The other slots are the usual Wishboard+artifact solutions, and hate bears' ones. I also pack Rushing River because it's a 4th reactive answer against CB, but it's also great against Chalice&Trini decks.

-The 4th Chant is there to come in against Tempo decks,and Daze+Force ones, as well as Landstill.

Tell me what you think about this.

[mchainmail]

Angel's Grace could very well be a meta choice; if people play large amounts of zoo / sligh / burn, it seems good with Ad Nauseum.

[citanul]

Tell me what you think about this.


You changed the manabase to it's original form. I used to play the maindeck Swamp but never felt that it was needed. After switching to full Chant effects I replaced it with a 9th fetch. I don't know if it's needed to add the Swamp again even though you run Duress. The alteration I used between fetch was just to avoid splash damage from hate such as Pithing Needle or even Extirpate.

I do agree that running Duress is better than running Chants when you expect Counterbalance based decks. But it's just worse than chant effects against blue non-Counterbalance based decks. Duress does not protect you from SDT floating a card or them having a counter in their graveyard for IGG-Loops, Chant does. So this decision is a mostly a metagame call.
But even then, I do not find Duress to be enough against CB decks. They often hide it with Brainstorm or have placed it second down with their turn1 Ponder. They can just topdeck it! And I hate luck factors.

I ran Pyroblasts as well during a tournament but never faced a CB based deck all day long so they did nothing. What I did notice is that people side in Blue Elemental Blast when you show them your Burning Wish. I sometimes side those out which creates death cards in their deck. With your sideboard you just give them more targets for it.

[CUB3X]

I wanted to bring up the latest deck on deckcheck.

5 Color Ad Nauseam (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31399)

He's playing a 5 color DD version with only 1 top! >.< He placed 3rd.

Weirdest version I've never seen.

He is playing 1 top.
The manabase is completely f**ked. (9 fetches, no duals, 1 island, 4 city of brass)
8 chant effects

Am I missing something here??

[Brad Herbig]

I wanted to bring up the latest deck on deckcheck.

5 Color Ad Nauseam (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31399)

He's playing a 5 color DD version with only 1 top! >.< He placed 3rd.

Weirdest version I've never seen.

He is playing 1 top.
The manabase is completely f**ked. (9 fetches, no duals, 1 island, 4 city of brass)
8 chant effects

Am I missing something here??
I feel like the decklist is wrong. I don't see how that is playable, even in an event of only 13 people.

[Piceli89]

Didn't you know that City of Brass can be fetched?
N00bs

[chokin]

Didn't you know that City of Brass can be fetched?
N00bs

This is why I run fetchlands in my Ichorid! Who needs to fetch weak 2 color lands when I can fetch awesome 5 color lands!

/joke

I've been really wanting to test out this deck again. I played Iggy Pop for a long time, swapped to TES eventually, and have played ANT a few times since it's come out.

One of my biggest fears when I play this deck is Sadistic Sacrament. I've seen this card played more and more lately. It's gotten to the point where I want to just do one maindecked Tendrils and IGG and then have some number of Burning Wish. I just wouldn't do the DD route with this plan as the slots are kinda squished. Anyone have ideas on combating SS other than "Play another deck"?

[badjuju]

This is why I run fetchlands in my Ichorid! Who needs to fetch weak 2 color lands when I can fetch awesome 5 color lands!

/joke

I've been really wanting to test out this deck again. I played Iggy Pop for a long time, swapped to TES eventually, and have played ANT a few times since it's come out.

One of my biggest fears when I play this deck is Sadistic Sacrament. I've seen this card played more and more lately. It's gotten to the point where I want to just do one maindecked Tendrils and IGG and then have some number of Burning Wish. I just wouldn't do the DD route with this plan as the slots are kinda squished. Anyone have ideas on combating SS other than "Play another deck"?

NLS plays around this, and is still a DD storm deck at heart, even more so if you play emidln's version that has 4x Burning Wish.

Tempo matchups won't be so easy w/o chants, but I suppose you can try citanul's version without green (which subsequently makes your CB matchups harder - can't win em all boys).

[neenjafus]

Hey all,

I'd like to start playing storm combo but I see so many versions, I'm not sure where to begin.

Is there a primer on ANT/DDANT/TES comparing the three and giving details as to why one over the other?

If not, can you guys give me a bit of direction as to why I would choose one over the other?

Thanks!

[Rune]

Hey all,

I'd like to start playing storm combo but I see so many versions, I'm not sure where to begin.

Is there a primer on ANT/DDANT/TES comparing the three and giving details as to why one over the other?

If not, can you guys give me a bit of direction as to why I would choose one over the other?

Thanks!

You can read about TES in the established decks forum. The author points out some differences between ANT and TES in the thread - the main one being no fetchlands which means you can't get your lands stifled but on the other hand you can't shuffle away useless stuff like Chrome Mox with fetch + Brainstorm, unless you have both Brainstorm and Ponder in hand and the mana to cast them. So ANT is more capable of sculpting a good hand by deck manipulation, and this might just be personal preference but I don't think you should ever give up on that. I have never played DDANT but many people seem to think it's the best. As far as I know it hasn't put up the same results as ANT yet though.

[neenjafus]

that makes sense. It does seem as if TES can be a bit faster but I have noticed that it seems to have a bit less deck manipulation.

I guess I should just try both and see what I like, there aren't many more cards I'd need to build both.

Thanks!

[Eksem]

Hello everyone. I have yet to take AnT to a tournament, but I am considering playing it this weekend. However, I'm still quite unsure on sideboarding with this deck. Deciding which cards to put in is usually pretty straightforward, but which do you take out?

I'm playing a 6 Chant, 2 Top-build, 1 AdN, 1 IGG, no DD.

Let's say i'm playing against Merfolk. Then I would like to add, like, Pyroblast, Xantid Swarm or Carpet of Flowers or whatever depending on the SB. But what to take out? Chants are still very useful, so I'd prefer not to remove to many of them, but in adding cards in a fourth color perhaps means I should just replace them since I have to change 1-2 lands too? The same goes with most Blue-based decks against which the Chants work very well. I want Krosan Grip in to be able to handle Counterbalance, but again, what to take out? Mana acceleration?

[easyrider]

Is this a keepable hand G1 against an unknown opponent?

Top, Fetch, Fetch, Island, Dark Ritual, Brainstorm, Orim's Chant

I am inclined to say no, but you have two shuffles to find stuff. Is this line of thinking just dumb? Or is it worth to gamble? (I especially hate being down cards with Tendrils decks.)

I am playing citanul's list except for -1 Silence, +1 Top.

[badjuju]

Is this a keepable hand G1 against an unknown opponent?

Top, Fetch, Fetch, Island, Dark Ritual, Brainstorm, Orim's Chant

I am inclined to say no, but you have two shuffles to find stuff. Is this line of thinking just dumb? Or is it worth to gamble? (I especially hate being down cards with Tendrils decks.)

I am playing citanul's list except for -1 Silence, +1 Top.

That is a very, very keepable hand.
I wish I opened like that every game.

[johanessen]

That is a very, very keepable hand.
I wish I opened like that every game.

I wish it too.

[GreenOne]

Is this a keepable hand G1 against an unknown opponent?

Top, Fetch, Fetch, Island, Dark Ritual, Brainstorm, Orim's Chant

I am inclined to say no, but you have two shuffles to find stuff. Is this line of thinking just dumb? Or is it worth to gamble? (I especially hate being down cards with Tendrils decks.)

I am playing citanul's list except for -1 Silence, +1 Top.
It's a nice hand! I'd play Island, Top. Then next turn you can brainstorm, fetch and look with top. It's a good hand to have a protected win on turn 3 or 4, so it's quite good against most matchups.

[easyrider]

Thanks for the responses. I haven't played a Tendrils list with Top in it, so I think that I am just misjudging the ability to find a Tutor, Wish, etc.

[Nidd]

It's a nice hand! I'd play Island, Top. Then next turn you can brainstorm, fetch and look with top. It's a good hand to have a protected win on turn 3 or 4, so it's quite good against most matchups.
Well, I would play Island, play Top, use Top on my Upkeep and eventually crack a Fetch when I want to Brainstorm/shuffle.

What's better now?

[citanul]

Well, I would play Island, play Top, use Top on my Upkeep and eventually crack a Fetch when I want to Brainstorm/shuffle.

What's better now?


In general it is better to draw your card, play Brainstorm, fetch and then SDT. You'll see 7 cards this way. With your play you see 6 if you reshuffle. If there's 2 on top that you like then you'll see 3.

[Bahamuth]

In general it is better to draw your card, play Brainstorm, fetch and then SDT. You'll see 7 cards this way. With your play you see 6 if you reshuffle. If there's 2 on top that you like then you'll see 3.

I disagree. It depends on my matchup. If I'm playing against non-blue, I'd Brainstormto shuffle away the Chant. If I was playing against blue, my hand is already really strong and I'd rather wait for some moment where Brainstorm can actually improve my hand.

[citanul]

I disagree. It depends on my matchup. If I'm playing against non-blue, I'd Brainstormto shuffle away the Chant. If I was playing against blue, my hand is already really strong and I'd rather wait for some moment where Brainstorm can actually improve my hand.


I'm not talking about the hand given in the example. I'm just talking in general. Overall it is better to do x than to do y.
But it's always dependant on matchups and starting hands as in how many dead cards.

Edit: Just checked the hand. It is indeed better to top during upkeep with that hand if it's against blue. It's better to draw and play Brainstorm if you need to go off quickly like against an agressive deck.

[lillelassie]

Jap's play Legacy too - All time favourite arguably best player in the world Tomoharu Saito won a 178 tourney with this 3-color ANT list:

2 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Duress
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
3 Infernal Tutor
2 Ponder
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Thoughtseize
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Sensei's Divining Top

2 City of Traitors
3 Flooded Strand
1 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea

Sideboard:

4 Dark Confidant
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Extirpate
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Hydroblast
2 Krosan Grip
1 Rebuild
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Thoughtseize

I like the City of Traitors.. If in doubt regarding anything (not just magic but life in general) - just do what Tomoharu Saito does!

[Piceli89]

Jap's play Legacy too - All time favourite arguably best player in the world Tomoharu Saito won a 178 tourney with this 3-color ANT list:

2 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Duress
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
3 Infernal Tutor
2 Ponder
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Thoughtseize
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Sensei's Divining Top

2 City of Traitors
3 Flooded Strand
1 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea

Sideboard:

4 Dark Confidant
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Extirpate
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Hydroblast
2 Krosan Grip
1 Rebuild
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Thoughtseize

I like the City of Traitors.. If in doubt regarding anything (not just magic but life in general) - just do what Tomoharu Saito does!


Hydroblast? Rebuild? He'd better play 2 Xantid Swarm off that slot. I respect the player because he's a powerhouse and all, but I've seen better ANT sbs.

[lillelassie]

The only thing I can think off is Hydroblast as a permanent answer to Pyrostatic Pillar - but yea bounce does the same thing I guess.. Rebuild is for rare occations of chalice at 1 and 2? It can also add to storm count in some degree I guess.. I guess I like his SB of 1-offs since its alot of different answers to alot of different hate - but I am biased in every way possible cause I love him so much!

[GoldenCid]

Isn't Thoughtseize an autoshock for AN?? Duress could fit better...

[KillemallCFH]

Isn't Thoughtseize an autoshock for AN?? Duress could fit better...That list is already playing a full set of Duresses.

[GoldenCid]

That list is already playing a full set of Duresses.

My bad! I notice, now, that chant / silence were changed, in the sae proportion by duress / thoughseize, considering Pauwels' list.

how do you feel with that change?

[citanul]

considering Pauwels' list.


I'm being addressed by my last name now? :p

The first benefit that I see is that it cuts a color which gives you more stability against Stifle + Wasteland.
The other one is that discard effects are better against CB based decks than chant effects.

The obvious downsides are that you cant make him discard a counter and then go for an Ill-Gotten Gains loop. This means that you have to go through a lot of Ad Nauseams when playing against Blue decks. He plays a 3rd Chrome Mox due to that I guess. But then running a second Ad Nauseam as well? That doesn't seem correct.

[Tao]

But then running a second Ad Nauseam as well? That doesn't seem correct.


Hydroblast? Rebuild? He'd better play 2 Xantid Swarm off that slot. I respect the player because he's a powerhouse and all, but I've seen better ANT sbs.

Come ON, it is Saito, he is a better deckbuilder than you, and he won a 178 man tourney. Stop critizising his list.

[Piceli89]

Come ON, it is Saito, he is a better deckbuilder than you, and he won a 178 man tourney. Stop critizising his list.

I hate this fucking behaviour like "ooo, he's a pro and so his list is perfect, don't even try to discuss a single card of it". Does being a professional player mean that he can't make any errors in deckbuidling? No sir.
For example, if you would know ANT, you'd know that, as someone already said, that Hydroblast is good only against Pyrostatic Pillar. Magus of the Moon? He runs an Island and can make B easily off Moxes, petals (and the basic swamp he could put, being a 2-colours list, which he lacks instead). So it's basically a 1-card answer. Wouldn't it be better to make that slot, say, a Chain of Vapor, which is more flexible and can get rid of Gaddock Teeg and also of the other hatebears that list suffers terribly? Ah no, because he's a pro so I'm wrong and he's right!
I would remember that there's a possibility that Pro players have their lists borrowed by other friends who happen to be deckbuilders, and I think this is the case sine Saitou probably doesn't know Legacy as well as he knows Standard or Extended.
And even if he was, I would still trust more people like the expert ones on this thread, who test costantly all the possible configurations, pro-cons, consequences, bad MUs balancing-power of the cards they choose. Emidln, Bahamuth, Citanul, PF and others play Storm Combo from much, much time, more than the 1-time quickie Saitou probably had with this deck. And all of them won tournaments, despites not doing it for work.

So please stop with that trolling argument.

[Tao]

A 178 tournament is not a trolling argument, and Saito being better than us is also not a trolling argument.

But what you said were certainly NO arguments, just one-liners that you think a certain card is bad. "Hydroblast? Rebuild? He'd better play 2 Xantid Swarm off that slot." How is that an argument? That is just a statement. Yeah, go and replace two cards with two other cards that do nothing similar. It really doesnt matter. Just play Xantid Swarm and ignore bouncing Chalice#1, Chalice#2, Trinisphere and Thorn of Amethyst all at the same time. Your Staxx opponent can't cast spells, right, and so you just combo? Was that what you were trying to communicate with replacin Rebuild with Swarm?

Maybe Pyroblast is argueable, but then argue instead of just saying something. And if you are at it, look at the 2 Goblin lists in the Top8, one which played Pillar. Maybe it was good metagaming by Saito and for your Meta Pyroblast isn't good? Just think for a few seconds before posting.

And if you really trust the guys you mentioned more than Saito, then you should make a reality check, it is like saying you trust your local Hold'em round for Holdem strategy more than durrrr or Ivey (or whatever game you play with whatever Stars it has).

[citanul]

But what you said were certainly NO arguments, just one-liners that you think a certain card is bad.


Excuse me? I gave quite a good analysis why I think that a second Ad Nauseam is a bad choice. When you face a blue deck you want protection followed by a kill. Using discard as protection over chant effects forces you to go through Ad Nauseam as a win condition instead of the IGG-loop. So his deck needs to resolve Ad Nauseam then and it's build for it in general. 4 Cabal Ritual, 3 Chrome Mox. Most people don't run that anymore but he has to. But then electing to run a 2nd Ad Nauseam isn't good because it increases your own loss rate to it.

[Piceli89]

A 178 tournament is not a trolling argument, and Saito being better than us is also not a trolling argument.

Several people won larger tournaments with better lists, despites not being pro players. I can think to that guy who won the last Ovinogeddon in Italy (370 players), with a very good list, a straight UBW ANT with 2 tops and red in sb for Pyroblasts.
But to me you're too slave to the iconic power of the pilot to see specifically in his deck.



But what you said were certainly NO arguments, just one-liners that you think a certain card is bad. "Hydroblast? Rebuild? He'd better play 2 Xantid Swarm off that slot." How is that an argument? That is just a statement. Yeah, go and replace two cards with two other cards that do nothing similar. It really doesnt matter. Just play Xantid Swarm and ignore bouncing Chalice#1, Chalice#2, Trinisphere and Thorn of Amethyst all at the same time. Your Staxx opponent can't cast spells, right, and so you just combo? Was that what you were trying to communicate with replacin Rebuild with Swarm?

I was trying to communicate the obvious thing that a good combo player should notice with this lists, i.e. the lack of Chants really do hurt against decks playing Top to hide counterspells, or multiple counters ala Tempo Threshold. Xantid would be a in-color, recursive Chant effect.
I bet every player with a minimum of experience in the deck would have got it.
Not you, as it seems.
About the artifact bouncing issue: he can run, instead of Rebuild which is quite slow and aggravates the cost of Ad Nauseam a lot (again, a thing everyone would notice), another Hurkyl's Recall. I don't find these decks to set Chalice at 2 very much against storm combo, if not in a very advanced position; Chalice at 1 is the first obvious choice, as it stops your cantrips and your Dark Rituals. Then it comes Chalice at 0 which breaks LEDs, Petals, Moxes. Of course Trinisphere is a must-remove.
Also keep in mind that against Stax, it's more difficult to reach 3 mana due to various Wastelands, Armageddons, and such. Of course it's equal if Trinisphere is on the field, but it doesn't always happen, and the Ad Nauseam issue persists.

He could have taken off those Dark Confidants, which are not that great in a combo sideboard. Mind discussing this? Go 3 pages before this and read the flamewar between Rico Suave and the rest of the guys.




Maybe Pyroblast is argueable, but then argue instead of just saying something. And if you are at it, look at the 2 Goblin lists in the Top8, one which played Pillar. Maybe it was good metagaming by Saito and for your Meta Pyroblast isn't good? Just think for a few seconds before posting.

Shouldn't it be Hydroblast? :cool:
Again, why not to run Chain of Vapor then? It can bounce PP so that you can go off the turn after, with the bonus of being awesome against Gaddock Teeg and such instead of having the powerful effect of countering a Lightning Bolt. Do you think that destroying and bouncing is so different with Storm Combo? The only real panorama when destroying is>>>> bouncing is against Counterbalance to me, when you are not sure than the turn after you'll manage to go off, due to all the counters a normal Countertop packs so there's a possibility you'll fizzle/be stopped and they'll bring CB down again.[/QUOTE]




And if you really trust the guys you mentioned more than Saito, then you should make a reality check, it is like saying you trust your local Hold'em round for Holdem strategy more than durrrr or Ivey (or whatever game you play with whatever Stars it has).

Perhaps you didn't read what I wrote. I don't care if Saitou won a tournament with ANT, as he probably picked it up for that event only. These guys put up regular results from a lot of time, and this means a lot. If you want to play Saitou's list because you judge it to be the definitive AnT list, no one stops from doing it. When you'll get skullfucked by some decks because of the weakness of the deck, maybe you'll think again about it.
[/QUOTE]

[Nidd]

I'm with Piceli and citanul on this one, Rebuild is not as good as you might expect. Hurkyl's Recall answers Stax and Stompy as good as Rebuild does. When he has a Chalice @ 2, why not opt for a Krosan Grip, which has the added bonus of destroying a SDT or a CB? The fact that K.Grip forces you to play G in is not an argument, as Xantid Swarm and/or Carpet of Flowers should be i your SB as well.

[Bahamuth]

Being a pro or winning a tournament is by no means an argument to praise the list this person used. Those times I've seen pro's play Legacy (like at Worlds), they mostly played like shit. These people never look into Legacy at all, and the community over here has done a much better job at creating better lists that a pro will. I know for a fact that both mainboard and sideboard of that list are bad and it doesn't mean anything that the pilot is a pro or that the list won a tournament.

[Piceli89]

Yes, green calls that.
I would like to add that the list in itself is not bad at all, but to me needs some tweaks to fight bad MUs. Here's what I tried some minutes ago:

4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [PT] Swamp (2)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [UG] Island
1 [A] Tropical Island
3 [A] Underground Sea

// Spells
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [LRW] Ponder
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [US] Duress
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
2 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [B] Dark Ritual
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 3 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [FUT] Pact of Negation
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 [PS] Rushing River (?)
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [AQ] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 [U] Tropical Island

The MD list resembles a lot the original one, with the exception of City of Traitors bring cut because I didn't like their drawback that much, and it's pretty much a Top-dependant hand in the opening hand. 1 more Ponder to speed up the deck a bit also, since it's DD-less.

I can accept running 2 AdN. You want to be the more fast possible with this build (especially against blue where you couldn't stand mid-late ame only with discard as protection), and Duress+TS fit for this; having 2 AdN increase the possibility of having it in the initial hand, goin Duress+Rituals and various mana-->Ad Nauseam. This is a doable thing in here, but imo not in the traditional UBw lists where having chants require you more mana and a bit more setup.

The sideboard has changed completely. I added the well-known Xantids to fight Faeries, Tempo Threshold, and opposing Stor Combos with Chants, against which this build is inferior. I added also a Pact of Negation to make life a bit easier against Tempo Thresh, even if I'm unsure about it.
The rest is canonic: bounce for artifacts, KGrips for CB. I also put an additional IGG to become sort of Fetchland Tendrils against those MUs where you'd side in lots of 3-cc, making Ad Nauseam really worse. Perhaps we could let a single AdN in against Stax, since they have no clock, but against Countertop lists is better to board the out.

I feel this list is ore explosive than normal AnT due to protection being on-colour with the acceleration, but I'm sure I'll miss Chants (and Doomsday even more).

[emidln]

Saito plays a lot of storm. He seems to have moved on from TES and something like TK's list (he's ran both) for more tranditional ANT. Check results for the ancient memory convention for more details (he lives in top8).

Hydroblast was considered in the FT thread as ananswer to a strong dragonstompy/moon/pillar meta. Those don't exist anymore in the US, but I wouldn't rule out either a good metagame decision of saito's combined skill with legacy and as a magic player to just not need the slot. Without a wishboard, you can probably get by on about 6 sideboard slots anyeay for 95% of matchups.

Also, winning one tournament doesn't mean the list is final or decisive. Piloted by a pro, even a known legacy competent pro like saito, doesn't make a list final or decisive. Statisticss versus a suspected metagame is the only the that gives you this and even that isn't good if you don't forsee the metagame well. The issue of chant vs duress vs pyroblast vs shusher vs bees vs pact isn't something that you can say 100%, 80%, or even 50% of the time will be correct for a legacy odyssey we call swiss+top8. At some point it comes down to matchups and skill at using what you have to create an advantage and get the W.

[GoldenCid]

But saito does not run doomsday meditate pack. Is there any real advantage on packing it??

Besides, he runs DConfidant in side. In what cases its useful?

[Piceli89]

Saito plays a lot of storm. He seems to have moved on from TES and something like TK's list (he's ran both) for more tranditional ANT. Check results for the ancient memory convention for more details (he lives in top8).



The dude you're referring to is Yuu SaitoU, who is a lvl2 japanese judge. Tomoharu Saito (or Saitou) is the well-known professional player.

[NiRVeS]

But saito does not run doomsday meditate pack. Is there any real advantage on packing it??

Besides, he runs DConfidant in side. In what cases its useful?

The cost of adding DD/Meditate to your list is rather small, but it can improve your blue matchups. Often, you won't be able to use IGG in those matches, because they have counterspells in their GY, so you're left with only 1 (or 2, depending on the list) AdN's to generate storm. DD gives you another engine, and allows you to play through hate where IGG/AdN would fail you.

Confidant was long played as a sideboardcard against pure control decks, but has fallen out of favor. Xantid Swarm is just so much better imho.

Grtz

[Elf_Ascetic]

Did you guys test the non-W lists against Merfolk? 'Cause I cannot see that list winning the matchup, where Chant is.

[lillelassie]

I am by no means a good ANT player - in fact I have never played a game with it or against it.. Jesus talking about nailing my own coffin.. With that being said here goes:

With the discard package (without Chant) I would think that you can still go off with Ill-Gotten Gains - you simply return your discard and use it again? Other than that whats the problem of "only" using AN to go off? He runs two, so its easier to find..

I actually imagine Dark Confidant and the extra Tendrils comes in against Threshold and other aggro-control decks (merfolk), perhaps boarding some of the combo out - mind you that with all the card advantage you can easily go off without AN or IGG, and its not like you are under a heavy clock - you have time to sculp a perfect hand, get Threshold and search for Tendrils..

The City of Traitors seems good cause a hand of City, mana-artifact, AN and dark ritual is all you need to go off right? I guess it makes mulliganing with the deck a bit forgiving.. It adds a bit of resillience against Daze too I guess.

Regarding Xantid Swarm I have heard that many players disagree how good it is.. Cant remember the arguments though :) Plz enlighten me

[Tao]

"the obvious thing that a good combo player should notice with this lists, i.e. the lack of Chants really do hurt against decks playing Top to hide counterspells or multiple counters ala Tempo Threshold. Xantid would be a in-color, recursive Chant effect. I bet every player with a minimum of experience in the deck would have got it."

"He could have taken off those Dark Confidants, which are not that great in a combo sideboard."

"When you'll get sullfucked by some decks because of the weakness of the deck, maybe you'll think again about it."


I know for a fact that both mainboard and sideboard of that list are bad and it doesn't mean anything that the pilot is a pro or that the list won a tournament.

Not I am blindly obeying pros, you are blindly flaming.

That is just concentrated stupidity, honestly. Pointless flaming at Pros just because they are Pros. You look at a list made by a Pro that is not the standard Storm list and all you manage to say "oh look at him, he is horrible because he doesn't play the standard list." "This is not standard and wrong and this too and look at this, not standard and wrong and bad.". Quote me out of context and ignore the rest of my post if you like but that is what you are essentially doing. You have fixed opinions about how ANT should look, and how an ANT SB should look, and completely dismiss that these changes were made by a great player AND that this great player has proven that the deck works in a big tournament (and has beaten Canadian with Vendillion Cliques in the Finals btw.).

What is it? Tell me. Why does he not play the standard list? Do you really think he is too stupid to copy paste lists from recent tournaments if he wasn't interested in the format? Doesn't it come to your mind that he (or maybe his teammate and if so he is certainly a good Japanese Legacy and not a random scrub) have thought about this and that they had their reasons? Maybe he weighed mana consistency and speed higher than Chant effects. Maybe he did not want to get his Xantid Swarms StoPed and Bolted every time. So Saito made diviations to a deck, then went to a big tournament, won that tournament and you still claim that it is just a bad list by someone who does not know the format. That is just so incredibly stupid, I don't get it.

[GoldenCid]

I really like dark confidant postside. I think that although the probability of revealing a "dangerous card" is low (AN, IGG or ToA) i believe that we have to go off via DD or IGG instead of AN.

[badjuju]

I am by no means a good ANT player - in fact I have never played a game with it or against it.. Jesus talking about nailing my own coffin.. With that being said here goes:

With the discard package (without Chant) I would think that you can still go off with Ill-Gotten Gains - you simply return your discard and use it again? Other than that whats the problem of "only" using AN to go off? He runs two, so its easier to find..

I actually imagine Dark Confidant and the extra Tendrils comes in against Threshold and other aggro-control decks (merfolk), perhaps boarding some of the combo out - mind you that with all the card advantage you can easily go off without AN or IGG, and its not like you are under a heavy clock - you have time to sculp a perfect hand, get Threshold and search for Tendrils..

The City of Traitors seems good cause a hand of City, mana-artifact, AN and dark ritual is all you need to go off right? I guess it makes mulliganing with the deck a bit forgiving.. It adds a bit of resillience against Daze too I guess.

Regarding Xantid Swarm I have heard that many players disagree how good it is.. Cant remember the arguments though :) Plz enlighten me

@IGG

Most of the time you will need all three cards you get back to combo off, or you won't have extra mana to cast a Duress. Also, what if they get back more than one counterspell?

@AdN

Running two also means you are more liable to flip one over while going off with Ad Nauseam, costing you a hefty 5 life. The deck runs enough tutoring power that you only need one to consistently go off. Only variants without the DD package should ever consider running more than one.

@Dark Confidant

He's alright. I don't think he gets the credit he deserves, but then again there are too many people on both ends of the spectrum - he definitely isn't the amazing creature others are claiming he is. In my testing, Xantid Swarm has proven to be a much larger threat against U-based decks.

@City of Traitors

Only if you're going balls to the wall. I think Crystal Vein is better if you're going to do that.

@Xantid Swarm

They only disagree because Carpet of Flowers might be better in more matchups, as Swarm can still get burnt out against TT and other aggro-control matchups. If you resolve one against Merfolk, you are more than most likely going to win.

@Saitou's List

Everyone just relax. That list looks just like any other standard ANT list. 6 hand disruption spells, 2 Tops over Ponder #3-4, and a green splash post-board for the CB matchup. He runs City of Traitors instead of Crystal Vein. I don't get what all the fuss is about.

[Piceli89]

Not I am blindly obeying pros, you are blindly flaming.

That is just concentrated stupidity, honestly. Pointless flaming at Pros just because they are Pros. You look at a list made by a Pro that is not the standard Storm list and all you manage to say "oh look at him, he is horrible because he doesn't play the standard list." "This is not standard and wrong and this too and look at this, not standard and wrong and bad.". Quote me out of context and ignore the rest of my post if you like but that is what you are essentially doing. You have fixed opinions about how ANT should look, and how an ANT SB should look, and completely dismiss that these changes were made by a great player AND that this great player has proven that the deck works in a big tournament (and has beaten Canadian with Vendillion Cliques in the Finals btw.).

What is it? Tell me. Why does he not play the standard list? Do you really think he is too stupid to copy paste lists from recent tournaments if he wasn't interested in the format? Doesn't it come to your mind that he (or maybe his teammate and if so he is certainly a good Japanese Legacy and not a random scrub) have thought about this and that they had their reasons? Maybe he weighed mana consistency and speed higher than Chant effects. Maybe he did not want to get his Xantid Swarms StoPed and Bolted every time. So Saito made diviations to a deck, then went to a big tournament, won that tournament and you still claim that it is just a bad list by someone who does not know the format. That is just so incredibly stupid, I don't get it.

Not to be an asshole, but you're telling me to quote your posts out of context and that's the exact thing you just did above with my previous post.
I'm not saying things without a reason. Tell me, did you ever play ANT? Did you ever got fucked because the other hid a spell on the top with SDT? Did you ever played against stuff like Spellstutter Sprite or Cursecatcher which you can't take with Duresses? Did you ever Duress the opponent finding Snares and Stifles and not being able to go around all of them?
Did you ever realize how Thoughtseize is bad paired with 2 Ad Nauseams?

You are convinced by the fact that he is Saitou and he won the tournament, so his list is pretty good. This is the real fact. If he would have been a normal player, you would have despised his list, i bet it.
In my last post I also said that his list isn't bad at all, but it has some visible weaknesses against Matchups that matter. I'm not trying to bring it on the standard list, which FYI I don't consider to be the ultimate ANT. But the fact that the list with Chants puts up way more results than the ones without discard (go on Deckcheck) to me is slightly more significative than the fact that the pilot of this tournament was Saitou.

And also, don't you think that he may have not met any blue-based deck during the Swiss, or have met some with light disruption? As ElfAscetic said, try this list against Merfolk and you'll play in a position of notable disadvantage. In judging the deck, I always refer myself to a general situation, in referrement to the Tiers1 and the most difficult MUs.
But.. may have that list been perfect for that meta? Perhaps. He beated Canadian Threshold in the finals? Ok, I'd like to know how things have gone, because g2 and g3 if the Thresh player brings in Spell Pierces, ANT without Chants is in a bad shape.
Could this list perform in a general metagame? I don't think so.

And what does it mean that he has won against Tempo Threshold? Is it one game enough to acknowledge the list as a good one? There's always the possibility that the ultra-favourite for winning deck loses to the crappy one, like Elves winning on Ichorid and such. It's a game of luck after all. But if we base on a "typical" match, I think you can't not agree that Chants are more strong against Tempo decks, and , in general , against multi-counter blue decks, which are ANT's real Achille's heel for definition (with Counterbalance).
Swarms burned or STPed? While I can agree with Bolt or Fire/ice, who keeps a card that's basically useless, because it can't evn pitch to FoW? It's also difficult to foresee that an ANT will bring in Swarms g2 and g3, if one does not see green. While Confidant is a very probable move from the combo player.
And doesn't Confidant die out of the same things Xantid would? But the bonus of Dark Confidant is that it costs 2, making AdN worse; and it also goes under Spell Snare, quite played by Blue decks.
I would like to make you see that I'm reasoning using strategical logics, not talking for rage.

If he'll put on steady results, or this list will begin to be played, I promise I'll eat my words and respect that list. But holy fuck, please STOP saying that I'm bashing him for the fact that he's a Pro without reason, because you haven't still understood that what I'm bashing is the list and not the person. And about 4 people told this thing after me, too.

It's useless to discuss. You are set up on the list being piloted by Saitou and so being good, while I'm focused on the list lacking good protection for blue matchups. Better to stay with our respective beliefs and not to spam the topic anymore.

[Nidd]

By the way, why does he play City of Traitors? Colorless mana isn't good for the deck, besides paying for SDT T1 and being able to actiavte it immediately.

I mean, it dies to our own lands, can't be fetched and dies to Wasteland, just like a Dual which can be fetched and with which we can play our spells which actually cost quite a bit of colored mana.

[kicks_422]

The 2 colorless mana it gives is a big thing to get to 3BB. It most likely is played as the laast land you drop before you go off. Think of it as a Petal for 2 colorless.

That said, I think Crystal Vein would be a better choice if you want such an effect.

[GoldenCid]

By the way, why does he play City of Traitors? Colorless mana isn't good for the deck, besides paying for SDT T1 and being able to actiavte it immediately.

I mean, it dies to our own lands, can't be fetched and dies to Wasteland, just like a Dual which can be fetched and with which we can play our spells which actually cost quite a bit of colored mana.


I personally dislike CoT, but i think that i has a well purpose to be in.

And by the way...is there place for both Xantind or Orim's chant and Confidant in side??
My question on OC is considering other storm combos.

[Rico Suave]

I would remember that there's a possibility that Pro players have their lists borrowed by other friends who happen to be deckbuilders, and I think this is the case sine Saitou probably doesn't know Legacy as well as he knows Standard or Extended.
And even if he was, I would still trust more people like the expert ones on this thread, who test costantly all the possible configurations, pro-cons, consequences, bad MUs balancing-power of the cards they choose. Emidln, Bahamuth, Citanul, PF and others play Storm Combo from much, much time, more than the 1-time quickie Saitou probably had with this deck. And all of them won tournaments, despites not doing it for work.

So please stop with that trolling argument.

And how the hell do you know anything about Saito and his experience in Legacy?

Saito is a better deck builder than anybody in this entire forum, let alone just this thread. To imply that Saito didn't test the deck or format much is simply ignorant.

[Eksem]

Some points:

Being a good player does not mean being a good deck builder.

Being a good deck builder does not mean matching a collective hundreads of heads strong.

Good players can win tournaments with subpar lists.

---

With that said, i'm not skilled enough by far to judge whether Saito's list is the best direction for the deck or not; but the arguments against it apparently overwhelms the arguments for it (since the only argument for it is that Saito piloted it, Finkel Burn-syndrome anyone?).

[alderon666]

The problem is the metagame.

There is no one single build of AdN that's definite, or good on any metagame. I play DDANT with 4 Chants and 4 Duress, it gives me a weaker and slower deck when compared to straight ADN decks but I feel like I have decent a shot against most decks. Chants are good against Stifle and Spell Snare and Duress is good against deck with few counters or permanent based disruption. On the SB I use Xantid Swarms, Krosan Grips and some assorted amount of bounce spells. My metagame is filled with Merfolk, so Xantid Swarm is the best hate around. I chose to build a more generic version with DD and Chant/Duress split because my metagame is somewhat random and that allows me to play around a lot of things.

In a metagame with decks that pack few counterspells and a lot of Stax/Dragon Stompy a deck with only discard spell could be ok, the added speed granted by City of Traitors complements that.

In my opinion, we should stray away from discussing whole decklists and start discussing single cards. The reason why to play a card instead of another, what to play in certain metagames, etc.

[GoldenCid]

The problem is the metagame.

There is no one single build of AdN that's definite, or good on any metagame. I play DDANT with 4 Chants and 4 Duress, it gives me a weaker and slower deck when compared to straight ADN decks but I feel like I have decent a shot against most decks.

I agree. I though on a 4/4 Split of Duress/Chant for smililar reasons.

Here is my list for disscussion:

// Lands
2 [US] Swamp (4)
1 [TE] Island (4)
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [U] Volcanic Island
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [R] Tundra
1 [U] Underground Sea

// Spells
1 [WL] Doomsday
3 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
1 [TE] Meditate
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
2 [MR] Chrome Mox
2 [TO] Cabal Ritual
2 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [M10] Duress
4 [PS] Orim's Chant

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [WL] Doomsday
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [A] Tropical Island
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [AP] Vindicate
SB: 2 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 [PC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [R] Hurkyl's Recall

I'm not sure if sideboard is quite fine but i gives me results.

[citanul]

Here is my list for disscussion:


- Why do you run two Basic Swamps one not just one?
- Also, if you do run a Basic Swamp it is probably better to run 4 Polluted Delta before thinking of other fetch.
- 2 Volcanic Islands seems to much to support 2 Burning Wish as the only red cards in the deck. Have you run into an abundance of situations where you didn't have the extra red for Burning Wish -> Empty the Warrens?
- I would advice running a Deathmark in your sideboard that you can bring in against Zoo etc for hatebears.
- By cutting Ponders for extra hate you will be more relliant on openingshands or drawing the cards. I haven't tested this so can't really comment on it but it's something to watch for during testing.
- You have less shuffle effects than most lists (8 fetch instead of 9 and 0 Ponder instead of 2). Another thing to check for during testing.

Questions:
- How has the Vindicate turned out to be? Do you only use it as a Wish target or do you side it in?
- What is the Extirpate for?

[alderon666]

Here is mine:

// Lands
1 [ZEN] Swamp (4)
1 [ZEN] Island (4)
1 [ZEN] Plains (4)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [R] Tropical Island
1 [R] Scrubland
1 [R] Tundra
2 [R] Underground Sea

// Spells
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
1 [TE] Meditate
1 [WL] Doomsday
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam

1 [TSP] Krosan Grip

4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor

1 [M10] Duress
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
3 [M10] Silence

2 [DIS] Infernal Tutor

4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
2 [MR] Chrome Mox
2 [TO] Cabal Ritual

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [10E] Deathmark
SB: 2 [WL] Doomsday
SB: 1 [] Helm of Awakening
SB: 1 [] Brainfreeze
SB: 1 [A] Bayou
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [R] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 [] Rushing River

- Yes, Chant effects are that good!
- Xantid Swarms > Merfolk, which is abundant in my metagame.
- Bayou is there so I can have an option to fetch a black source when I fetch a forest to play my Swarms, the Tropical is fetched by any dual and is normally the first target.
- I don't like the Krosan Grip MD, but it's so much better against Counterbalance... but sometimes I just wish it was a Rushing River.
- Mox are there to smooth the AdN, they're a necessary evil.
- Brainfreeze is there to beat crap, like Life.dec.

Open to suggestions.

[citanul]

I'm rather curious to the singleton Plains. You run 7 Chants, I run 6 in my list and am quite happy with 2 Tundra instead of 1 Tundra, 1 Plains.
Also, the Scrubland. I can understand that you might want to generate black one turn and white the other but I just don't see how. You tap it during your own turn for either W for a chant or B for acceleration but none of your cards for setup are Black or White. It'll barely ever happen that you need the black the turn before you want it for white for Chant (except the one of Duress).

I notice you are running the transformational sideboard for triple Doomsday and triple group in the CB matchup. How has this been working out for you? As well as the Brainfreeze over a Grapeshot with the Helm Combo. Is this because you think you can't generate the R needed with LED or petal for your combo?

You run 8 shuffle effects (8 fetch, not counting Mystical or the likes) with 4 SDT and 4 Brainstorm. Has this caused any problems so far?

[NQN]

I can say that I love to just cast Chant effects even when I can´t go off to bait a Force or other shit and therfor I also like some additional white sources. Sometimes you have to cast double chant which needs more duals too, and Plains is just imba if you´re facing a lot of Merrows/CT (as he stated, it´s folk for him).

[Rico Suave]

Some points:

Being a good player does not mean being a good deck builder.

Being a good deck builder does not mean matching a collective hundreads of heads strong.

Good players can win tournaments with subpar lists.

---

With that said, i'm not skilled enough by far to judge whether Saito's list is the best direction for the deck or not; but the arguments against it apparently overwhelms the arguments for it (since the only argument for it is that Saito piloted it, Finkel Burn-syndrome anyone?).

While your points are certainly true in the abstract, Saito happens to be an excellent deck builder as well.

Keep in mind he is not alone either. Members of his team won Player of the Year in two consecutive years before Saito earned his. In this light, it's not hard at all to imagine Saito built his list and tested it with the help of Player of the Year caliber players.

While I am not saying his list is definitive, I am saying it should not be dismissed so lightly. I know a lot of us think we're good, and if we're given enough time and testing we can come up with the best possible decks, but sometimes it takes being humbled in a tournament by a truly great player to realize not just that they are better, but how much better they are.

Saito piloting it is a pretty damn good reason why it should be given heavy consideration.

[citanul]

I can say that I love to just cast Chant effects even when I can´t go off to bait a Force or other shit and therfor I also like some additional white sources. Sometimes you have to cast double chant which needs more duals too, and Plains is just imba if you´re facing a lot of Merrows/CT (as he stated, it´s folk for him).


That would explain the Plains but what about the Scrubland? Why not run a Tundra here?

[Eksem]

While your points are certainly true in the abstract, Saito happens to be an excellent deck builder as well.

Keep in mind he is not alone either. Members of his team won Player of the Year in two consecutive years before Saito earned his. In this light, it's not hard at all to imagine Saito built his list and tested it with the help of Player of the Year caliber players.

While I am not saying his list is definitive, I am saying it should not be dismissed so lightly. I know a lot of us think we're good, and if we're given enough time and testing we can come up with the best possible decks, but sometimes it takes being humbled in a tournament by a truly great player to realize not just that they are better, but how much better they are.

Saito piloting it is a pretty damn good reason why it should be given heavy consideration.

"Damn good" and "heavy" consideration is stretching it a bit I think, a "fair" reason and "some" consideration seems more adequate. Certainly the card choices that are new should be considered, but parts of that list rather look like old AnT-lists that the deck has evolved away from (though perhaps wrongly, I'm way too terrible a player to tell).

More important, however, is the take away. So a very good player won a very big tournament with a list that to many seem a bit subpar. Nothing strange in that. It happens a lot. But let's say that his list was the best possible for that tournament, and that he knew that before hand. Nothing strange there either. It happens a lot. But if bad players (like me) are to learn anything from those card choices, the arguments for them do have to be a bit deeper than "Saito piloted it". Of course one could rip his list right off, play with it and hopefully finding out that way if and in that case why it works, but there is no point in writing on boards unless you do at least some theorycrafting, right? :)

Certainly the arguments against are pretty strong, it seems.

I'm just a bit skeptic about "good players play good decks"-arguments, since they have a tendency to not go anywhere.

[bruno_tiete]

@citanul: adding to the point made by NQN about multiple chanting, there is also the Chantwalk factor. Sometimes you need W in their turns to chant and later B to go off. I find myself fetching Scrubland a lot against aggro or CotV decks for this reason.

The plains is good for being a basic, thus allowing you to develop resources while under nonbasic hate, mainly in the form of Wastelock, but could be out of place in a list with only 4 Chants. Also, Chrome Mox kinda helps this need for safe mana sources. It's very meta dependant.

It has happened to me fetching Plains as the only way to achieve kicked-chant against goblins in the following turn or even to grant being able to chant multiple turns until it resolves, but it's less usual that things turn out like that.

[badjuju]

@Saitou's List

Everyone just relax. That list looks just like any other standard ANT list. 6 hand disruption spells, 2 Tops over Ponder #3-4, and a green splash post-board for the CB matchup. He runs City of Traitors instead of Crystal Vein. I don't get what all the fuss is about.

I'll quote myself again for emphasis.

EDIT:
Also, any seasoned tendrils player here should know and realize that there are a ton of meta and preference slots available. This list is no exception. The Japanese have been running TES-ANT lists since the dawn of time as well (all of which have managed to get pushed aside), so something as mild as this ANT list with minor differences should not be a shocker to anyone. Play whatever you're comfortable with and whatever your results are showing and stop squabbling about the validity of placing lists. It's all relative.

[Tao]

@RicoSuave: I am more than happy that at least someone in this thread seems to be open to changes.

The thing that ticked me off and made me flame picelli so hard was that he didn't even spend a single second thinking about the list. At 1:03 lillelassie posted the the list and at 1:06 Picelli89 had already quoted lillelassie's post with the list and dismissed all diviations to the standard SB as bad. He didn't even have time to think about what he posts. I hate this attitude. Even worse was Bahamuth who stated that he knew for a fact that both MD and SB are bad. Then about 40 million lines were written about how it doesn't matter if someone is Pro or not and the list was pretty much ignored.

I just think that this is wrong. It is good to see a list made by a player as great as Saito and instead of flaming it or changing it without putting much thought into it you should test the list a couple of times and try to understand what the person who made this deck was thinking before he went to the tournament and won it.

[Dia_Bot]

I won't say the list good/bad, because I wonder what makes this list so exceptional? Is it the 2 maindeck Ad nauseams, the sideboard? Or maybe it's the fact that a pro doesn't play a "standard" list.
2 ad nauseums does grant a higher chance of drawing one and a sideboard with alot of one-offs does create a kind of flexibility. (just like G. nassif did in fact)
The fact pro's win alot is due to their understanding of the game and understanding of different situations and how to deal with it.
I think people should stop searching for a "perfect" list because there is no such thing. Test with a list you are confortable with and play alot with it, this will make you win games of magic, not the fact you play "the best" list.
but hey, that's just my humble opinion :wink:

[alderon666]

I'm rather curious to the singleton Plains. You run 7 Chants, I run 6 in my list and am quite happy with 2 Tundra instead of 1 Tundra, 1 Plains.
Also, the Scrubland. I can understand that you might want to generate black one turn and white the other but I just don't see how. You tap it during your own turn for either W for a chant or B for acceleration but none of your cards for setup are Black or White. It'll barely ever happen that you need the black the turn before you want it for white for Chant (except the one of Duress).

I notice you are running the transformational sideboard for triple Doomsday and triple group in the CB matchup. How has this been working out for you? As well as the Brainfreeze over a Grapeshot with the Helm Combo. Is this because you think you can't generate the R needed with LED or petal for your combo?

You run 8 shuffle effects (8 fetch, not counting Mystical or the likes) with 4 SDT and 4 Brainstorm. Has this caused any problems so far?

The B also is more important than the U, in this case, since a very common play is fetch for Island and play top. And the time comes in every man's life when he has to top 3 lands for BBB to cast a Doomsday. That becomes more important when you side in the 2 DD from the board.

But your point is valid, Scrubland doesn't allow you to play Chant and black spells at the same time. I just think most of the times you're set with one blue source, while B/W sources might be needed in multiples.

The Brainfreeze issue is up in the air, I have to sit down and figure out some piles that allow me to play Grapeshot with a Petal or LED mana. I don't have one figured out, hence the Brainfreeze. But the Grapeshot is strictly superior other than that. Adding red lands is out of the question.

While I love drawing fetchlands and Top, if you draw too much of them the damage can end up stacking up quickly. The best use for them is opening a non-fetch land in your starting hand with Top/BS and some fetches. Opening a grip full of fetchlands is just a waste of 1 hit point. Yeah I know, it's marginal but it's there.

[Nidd]

Well, the thing that annoyed me at that list was the absence of Chant effetcs, which IS bad against U decks if you have to go the IGG route and the CoT, which seemed to have worked out for him.

Gah, I play a list with 14 lands and 4 Ponder, I shouldn't complain about other people's lists.

[Nizmox]

I've recently acquired the cards to build Tendrils and as a new player to combo, want some opinions on where to start.

1. Should I start without Doomsday and get to grips with straight ANT first, and then add Doomsday later (if at all).
2. Looking on deckcheck, I notice alot of lists are running 4 Chant + 4 Duress rather than 4 Chant and 2 Silence... thoughts?
3. Is running multiples of Ad Nauseam and Tendrils a good idea? A number of decks seem to be running 2, but being an all or nothing deck is it really worthwhile?
4. Is it worth running top, if you're not running Doomsday or should you replace top with Ponder.

(Assume I have access to all the cards incl. sideboard options)

[emidln]

Playing Doomsday is optional. I believe it adds power and consistency to the deck, but it has a very steep learning curve and until you know how to play it very well, it's often more of a hindrance than help. That said, play Sensei's Divining Top in addition to Ponder. If I didn't play Doomsday, my list would almost certainly be this:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Orim's Chant
2 Silence
1 Krosan Grip
4 Mystical Tutor
3 Infernal Tutor
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony

SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Wipe Away
SB: 2 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 Hurkyll's Recall
SB: 1 Angel's Grace
SB: 4 Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 Tropical Island
SB: 1 Plains

[Eksem]

I "play" (have yet to take it to a tournament) a list similar to the one above, but -1 Ponder, -2 Top, -1 Grip, +2 Cabal Rit, +1 Chain of Vapor, +1 Mox Diamond and a slightly different land configuration.

Tops are great. I don't think I would run 4, having more than 1 just sucks so much.

There are the odd occasions where I wish I had another AdN, if it get's stolen by discard or countered in a situation I had not anticipated; but this does not happen often and should be occuring less often the better I learn the deck. The downsides in life loss and drawing multiples does not seem to overweigh the upside.

The very few times that a second Tendrils of Agony would have been nice (like, I could go off now if I could just imprint this Tendrils to the Mox) does definitely not motivate having two in the deck. Running Chants does mean that you should never, ever have to fear Stifle or Mindbreak Trap, imho. After AdN resolves you should have a Chant in hand and mana for it if you haven't already resolved one before going off.

[Bahamuth]

@RicoSuave: I am more than happy that at least someone in this thread seems to be open to changes.

The thing that ticked me off and made me flame picelli so hard was that he didn't even spend a single second thinking about the list. At 1:03 lillelassie posted the the list and at 1:06 Picelli89 had already quoted lillelassie's post with the list and dismissed all diviations to the standard SB as bad. He didn't even have time to think about what he posts. I hate this attitude. Even worse was Bahamuth who stated that he knew for a fact that both MD and SB are bad. Then about 40 million lines were written about how it doesn't matter if someone is Pro or not and the list was pretty much ignored.

I just think that this is wrong. It is good to see a list made by a player as great as Saito and instead of flaming it or changing it without putting much thought into it you should test the list a couple of times and try to understand what the person who made this deck was thinking before he went to the tournament and won it.

I'm not sure how you could possibly know if me of Pecelli have thought about this list at all. I may have exaggerated saying the main- and sideboard are bad (although I belive they are). I do know for a fact that the sideboard is bad. Rebuild, Hydroblast and a 2nd Tendrills of Agony are all poor slots. I'm quite sure the mainboard is bad, but I can't prove this to you.
What's irritating me, was this post of yours.


Come ON, it is Saito, he is a better deckbuilder than you, and he won a 178 man tourney. Stop critizising his list.

This is absolutely insane, and I hope you realise by now why it is.

Emidln, do you agree speed is quite important game 1 against random decks with lists that don't play Doomsday? I've been playing 2 Top sideboard, what do you think about that?

[Rico Suave]

I'm not sure how you could possibly know if me of Pecelli have thought about this list at all. I may have exaggerated saying the main- and sideboard are bad (although I belive they are). I do know for a fact that the sideboard is bad. Rebuild, Hydroblast and a 2nd Tendrills of Agony are all poor slots. I'm quite sure the mainboard is bad, but I can't prove this to you.

While I am not a big fan of Rebuild, and Hydroblast is useful but may not be worth the space, a 2nd Tendrils isn't a poor slot in this case.

The inclusion of 4 Dark Confidant in the SB brings a lot of extra value to a 2nd Tendrils. Bob makes the Tendrils better in two ways: 1) he draws extra spells to make the Tendrils bigger, and 2) he reduces the lethal storm count by 1 with each attack. Bob brings a legitimate avenue of victory to the deck: swing a couple times, Tendrils for a bunch. Even if it's not lethal, the tremendous life-gain will buy several turns against a heavy aggressive rush, during which Bob will refuel the deck for a second go-round. In these situations, having access to a 2nd Tendrils and manually drawing it is quite useful.

EDIT - On a sidenote, a match against a G/B deck reminded me of two things:
1) It is useful to have a land that can tap underneath a Choke. A basic Swamp served me very well, so keep that in mind when constructing a mana base.
2) The 2nd Tendrils proved to be quite useful when my first was hit with Duress then hit with Tormod's Crypt. He assumed I was only running 1, but thankfully I guess I'm a bad player. ;)

[Eksem]

2) The 2nd Tendrils proved to be quite useful when my first was hit with Duress then hit with Tormod's Crypt. He assumed I was only running 1, but thankfully I guess I'm a bad player. ;)

I can see how it would be useful in that very narrow situation, but really, who boards Crypt vs AnT to begin with? And takes Tendrils with Duress? I mean, you actually having Tendrils in hand, he having Duress AND Crypt? That doesn't even happen! Even with the exact same matchup it's still like, once in a 100 games or something.

[Nidd]

Wow, so your second ToA made you win 1 game. I bet you don't count the times when you wish it were another spell, do you?

Also, I dunno, but I think that playing Bob against aggressive decks is something you shouldn't do.

[Rico Suave]

So much anger. Why do people treat a side benefit of it as if it were my main point?

No, the main point of the Bob -> Tendrils plan is to win games against CB decks. And it does win a large number of my games.

It also happens to be good in other ways.



Also, I dunno, but I think that playing Bob against aggressive decks is something you shouldn't do.

I wouldn't exactly call CB an aggressive deck, but it does have some aggressive plays.

[bruno_tiete]

So much anger. Why do people treat a side benefit of it as if it were my main point?

No, the main point of the Bob -> Tendrils plan is to win games against CB decks. And it does win a large number of my games.

It also happens to be good in other ways.



I wouldn't exactly call CB an aggressive deck, but it does have some aggressive plays.
I don't mean it in an offensive way, but people tend to keep their StoPs in against me and playing creatures of their own. This seems to make Bob a lackluster plan. How do you manage to keep it around?

[Nidd]

I wouldn't exactly call CB an aggressive deck, but it does have some aggressive plays.

I was refering to this part of your post:

2) he reduces the lethal storm count by 1 with each attack. Bob brings a legitimate avenue of victory to the deck: swing a couple times, Tendrils for a bunch. Even if it's not lethal, the tremendous life-gain will buy several turns against a heavy aggressive rush, during which Bob will refuel the deck for a second go-round. In these situations, having access to a 2nd Tendrils and manually drawing it is quite useful.
You are speaking of an aggressive rush, but you don't specify which deck you mean. When speaking of "aggressive decks", I don't think many think of Counterbalance. Zoo, Goblins and GoyfSligh would come to mind. And playing Bob against these 3 decks seems to be a bad plan, regarding the fact that they deal a lot of damage and that Bob can get a real liability. If you have a SDT in play, then it of course looks different, but I suppose dropping both SDT and Bob happens far less than Zoo playing an aggressive game.

[Tao]

I was refering to this part of your post:

You are speaking of an aggressive rush, but you don't specify which deck you mean. When speaking of "aggressive decks", I don't think many think of Counterbalance. Zoo, Goblins and GoyfSligh would come to mind. And playing Bob against these 3 decks seems to be a bad plan, regarding the fact that they deal a lot of damage and that Bob can get a real liability. If you have a SDT in play, then it of course looks different, but I suppose dropping both SDT and Bob happens far less than Zoo playing an aggressive game.

He OBVIOUSLY meant "aggressive rushes" by the decks that you side Bob in against. Like Landstill suddenly attacking you with Clique and Factory or Countertop having an aggressive draw. And you obviously do not board Confidant against Zoo, Goblins or Goyf Sligh so why would he mean those decks.

However, since everybody in this thread is so sure that all changes Saito made to the deck are bad and that his testing with these changes and his tournament victory were just a fluke or a statistic variance I won't bother explaining it. I am sick of out of context quoting and purposeful misunderstandings like the one above, I am out of this thread.

[Eksem]

So much anger. Why do people treat a side benefit of it as if it were my main point?

No, the main point of the Bob -> Tendrils plan is to win games against CB decks. And it does win a large number of my games.

It also happens to be good in other ways.



I wouldn't exactly call CB an aggressive deck, but it does have some aggressive plays.

Sorry, I did not mean to come off as agressive or angry. Rather, I was a quite amused by these unlikely series of events.

---

About the Bob-plan with additional Tendrils is something I did try in Vintage, but since I didn't even like it that much in that rather creature-less format i'm not going to try it anytime soon in Legacy. It does, however, seem rather clever in the abstract, so I did not see any point in questioning it.

[Rico Suave]

I don't mean it in an offensive way, but people tend to keep their StoPs in against me and playing creatures of their own. This seems to make Bob a lackluster plan. How do you manage to keep it around?

I do not mind at all if the threat of Bob forces my opponents to keep a bad card in their deck.

As for what happens when you're facing StP, Duress goes a long way. It can take out removal if you wish, or if you don't like it you can save the option to Brainstorm Bob away and leave them with a dead card in hand.

I don't think a 6-7 Chant build would get nearly as much use out of him. Also, there are mind tricks that can be played by bringing in Confidant on top of Xantid to keep them honest.


You are speaking of an aggressive rush, but you don't specify which deck you mean. When speaking of "aggressive decks", I don't think many think of Counterbalance. Zoo, Goblins and GoyfSligh would come to mind. And playing Bob against these 3 decks seems to be a bad plan, regarding the fact that they deal a lot of damage and that Bob can get a real liability. If you have a SDT in play, then it of course looks different, but I suppose dropping both SDT and Bob happens far less than Zoo playing an aggressive game.

That is correct, Bob is a real liability against creature decks like Zoo or Goblins.

When I say creature rush, I mean you never know what you can expect. Even a "control" deck that puts 2 Goyfs in play is cutting off a lot of breathing room.

[emidln]

I don't think the 12 cantrip deck is that slow to begin with. The extra cantrips and better abuse of both LED and Mystical Tutor go a long way to adding speed. If you do find yourself down life, IT->IGG is still a valid plan and the deck is better set up to find those extra acceleration. Additionally, since SDT is no longer necessary for Doomsday, it can be used more aggressively to find extra protection or acceleration.

All in all, I'd prefer to have the deck slightly better vs discard and blue than vs Zoo where the plan's always been to just IGG them out anyway.

[badjuju]

However, since everybody in this thread is so sure that all changes Saito made to the deck are bad and that his testing with these changes and his tournament victory were just a fluke or a statistic variance I won't bother explaining it. I am sick of out of context quoting and purposeful misunderstandings like the one above, I am out of this thread.

Hey let me double quote myself for emphasis. Holy shit.


@Saitou's List

Everyone just relax. That list looks just like any other standard ANT list. 6 hand disruption spells, 2 Tops over Ponder #3-4, and a green splash post-board for the CB matchup. He runs City of Traitors instead of Crystal Vein. I don't get what all the fuss is about.

Seriously, Saitou's AMAZING LIST is a difference of .... 2 cards. Look at any of those ANT lists that have been placing and nothing is out of place. Also, are you going to give credit to the Europeans that win GIGANTIC tournaments with ANT? How about them?

Know what you guys are tripping over, seriously.

Also lol @ this list I just found:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31831

[Bahamuth]

Also lol @ this list I just found:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31831

That's awesome. Especially since he doesn't play ToA as a kill, and his kill is much awesomer. His manabase is also obviously awesome. Notice the synergy between AdN and Shocklands.

[Piceli89]

I need some help from the Nijmegen guys.
I noticed this list on Deckcheck, and it meddles me a lot.

Mainboard:
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Orim's Chant
4 Duress
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
1 Swamp
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta

# 60

Sideboard:
4 Empty the Warrens
1 Volcanic Island
4 Thoughtseize
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away

The part I'm interested in is the sideboard, being the maindeck quite traditional.
Why 4 EtW and 4 Thoughtseizes? i'm assuming they're to be boarded in against Countertop, Tempo Threshold,Discard decks and all those decks against which you'd better go for a quick 10-12 Goblins protected by discard rather than waiting to build the Tendrils-kill hand (Dragon Stompy is another, f.e.).
But is it really worth? I mean, against UGx decks they can bring EE as well, or have it even maindeck, and you can fail hard. Plus, which cards usually are cut from the MD to board the package in (I guess, Ad Nauseam, IGG and some Chants)? Do you have any concrete data about this "trasformation" to share? Did it reveal to be performing?

[Bahamuth]

I need some help from the Nijmegen guys.
I noticed this list on Deckcheck, and it meddles me a lot.

Mainboard:
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Orim's Chant
4 Duress
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
1 Swamp
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta

# 60

Sideboard:
4 Empty the Warrens
1 Volcanic Island
4 Thoughtseize
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away

The part I'm interested in is the sideboard, being the maindeck quite traditional.
Why 4 EtW and 4 Thoughtseizes? i'm assuming they're to be boarded in against Countertop, Tempo Threshold,Discard decks and all those decks against which you'd better go for a quick 10-12 Goblins protected by discard rather than waiting to build the Tendrils-kill hand (Dragon Stompy is another, f.e.).
But is it really worth? I mean, against UGx decks they can bring EE as well, or have it even maindeck, and you can fail hard. Plus, which cards usually are cut from the MD to board the package in (I guess, Ad Nauseam, IGG and some Chants)? Do you have any concrete data about this "trasformation" to share? Did it reveal to be performing?

Yeah, this list is a bit old though. It was from a time where we were looking for a decent solution to Counterbalance in a list without Doomsday or Tops. We weren't convinced Tops were good enough in this deck at that time (some of us still don't play Tops by the way). This is the best solution we came up with. You have to realise we were kind of desperate to find a proper solution to Counterbalance. Pyroblast failed big time. We boarded out the 4 Chants for Thoughtseizes, since they're practically the same in this matchup while playing around counters.

We didn't board out AdN. I never liked playing 4 EtW though, I'd play 3 instead. We boarded something like IGG and 2 CRit or something. The strategy was quite allright. I don't think it's much worse that the Top + Grip plan the recent lists have. Yes, the plan sometimes loses to EE. The opponent was much less likely to have EE thoough, so we took that risk.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Ok, so I don't really play this deck. In other words, forgive me if this is just an ignorant suggestion. But I was thumbing through the Worldwake spoiler, and this guy seems to me like he might be useful after a whiffed Ad Nauseam or something like that:

Death's Shadow :b:

Creature - Avatar
Death's Shadow gets -X/-X where X is your life total.
13/13

Am I just misinterpreting how this deck works, or could this dude be a potential "man-plan" for y'all's sideboard? It's not like people are going to leave in their spot removal for game 2, after all... :really:

[VsTheWorld]

See the problem with that is you don't plan on a whiffed Ad Nauseam, so boarding otherwise dead cards for a contingency plan where you are likely in a game-losing state anyway just doesn't seem worthwhile to me.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

See the problem with that is you don't plan on a whiffed Ad Nauseam, so boarding otherwise dead cards for a contingency plan where you are likely in a game-losing state anyway just doesn't seem worthwhile to me.

This makes sense. I'm pretty sure the card will turn out to be trash anyways. Maybe it'll pull a Grindstone or a Dreadnought and become playable by virtue of some other card being printed at a later date.

I just figured if any deck could put it to good use right now, it would possibly be ANT. But I buy your argument.

[Nidd]

This makes sense. I'm pretty sure the card will turn out to be trash anyways. Maybe it'll pull a Grindstone or a Dreadnought and become playable by virtue of some other card being printed at a later date.

I just figured if any deck could put it to good use right now, it would possibly be ANT. But I buy your argument.
If Death's Shadow would be palyed, it would be in a Suicide Shell with Hatred. And maybe some Red cards like Flame Rift.

Also, leaving in the spotremoval against combo becomes more and more common, as we tend to board Xantid Swarms or even Confidants.

[Eksem]

Took an AnT list to a tournament today. I went 3-2 and finished 12th of 30 players. I did not really feel ready to run it at a tournament, but since there is another one tomorrow I thought it was a good opportunity to try it out.

First game I played against a UBG CounterTop-list and lost. Chant was a star this game, and had I just decided to stick to that plan instead of trying to keep CB away with Grips it could have gone better. I realise that a resolved CB wrecks the deck, but I added Grip while removing some Chants, and I feel that was a mistake. Is it perhaps better to keep the Chant-effects and board out some accelerators?

Second game was against Enchantress. :)

Third game I played Enchantress again. It felt like the gods loved me. :D

Fourth game karma bit my ass and I played against a BW-deck with so much discard that I never even was in it. I have no idea how to handle this matchup. All Sui/Disruption-decks wreck me in playtesting. Either I can't get anywhere because of extremely efficient LD (what good are basics when they Sinkhole you all the time?) or discard totally wrecks me. Chants were nice and all, but only a really fast starting hand could have saved me, and it feels like this deck does not really handle mulligans that well? (Mulligan to 5 and then getting Rit+Duress+Hymn... well, you know)

Fifth game I played some kind of Bant list, which worked nice. He didn't know the format that well and I could easily play around his counterspells (one game, however, double Rhor War Monk made it quite tough, yikes).

All in all I am impressed with this deck, the easy matchups are just... goldfishing while laughing, but the hard ones are really, really tough and seem to require a lot of skill. I love SDT and Chants, there were several games where Duress and Ponder (well, I still run 3 Ponder) would not have been nearly as hot.

[mercc]

I top-8'd a 49 man tournament yesterday with a LED-less ANT build with pacts.

Playing against:
Merfolk, 2-1 win

The rock, 2-0 win

Monoblack something with bloodghast and stromgald crusader? :S , 1-2 loss. He wins die roll and starts with fetch, ritual, ritual, tombstalker. And my mulliganhand can't give me a mystical, chain of vapor, brainstorm/ponder into vapor nor a fast win. So i die. G2 he plays swamp, swamp, bloodghast then dies.
Last game is also a horrible mulligan-tale.

Survival Bant, 2-1 win. Close call. Clique, spellstutter, teeg combined with vial is tough. But somehow manage to win via Ad Nauseum into another Ad Nauseum with a angel's grace, puh.
Last game was fast win, he plays meddling mage turn 2 and says slaughter pact, he has teeg in his hand. But I win after he passes to me.

Zoo, 2-0 win.
Don't think it was the best list, he had a fast start though and I win with luck from an 11 life Nauseum. G2 he doesn't get any SB cards, he has pyrostatic and hate-bears. I win easy.

Draw last game. Top 8.

Now here is the hard part. In the quarters I play against a good zoo deck. G1 he wins with a steppe lynx and 3 nacatl's, I don't have life to go off. G2 he boards in 4 mindbreak trap, 2 gaddok teeg and 1 REB. Ehh..

He mulliganed a 7-card hand with 2 fetch, steppe lynx, nacatl and lots of bolts he said. A GOOD zoo-hand but with no hate. So he mulligans into 5 land and a mindbreak trap. He draws, lynx, teeg and another mindbreak trap. I mean... :(

The version with LED (going of without thinking of life totals) and chants (negating mindbreak trap) must have it easier against this. I boarded out 4 pacts not knowing he had mindbreak traps. How do u fare against this?

[Pulp_Fiction]

@ Eksem:Top OWNS the Sui-heavy discard matchups. Just drop all your free artifacts on turn 1 and let Top filter your draws. Eventually you cantrip and fetch your way into MT or AdN and win. Eva Green and its variants can be problematic on occassion, but usually they are pretty easy and straightforward matchups.

@mercc: Zoo is a bye, nearly all the time. I still can not even begin to understand why you would want to take away the versatility of a combo deck and just win with AdN. Taking away the IGG loop, regular storm + IT + shit tons of mana (occassionally cycling Tops), and the DD plan seems awful. You are chosing only 1 strategy to win with a combo deck, and thats it! The hybrids have a ton of different ways to win. Chants are also a plus, but you could run those in LED-less. This is really the only benefit I see to playing LED-less AdN, its easier, and after 5 hours + of playing combo in a tournament your brain is still in tact to play a bunch of rituals and AdN.

[Adan]

Am I just misinterpreting how this deck works, or could this dude be a potential "man-plan" for y'all's sideboard? It's not like people are going to leave in their spot removal for game 2, after all... :really:

Well, they do, and even if you drop 4 of them on the table, 1 Swords to Plowshares is still enough.
That guy is only going to be a stupid kiddo-card. He's awesome in Limited, though.

By the way, does anyone have the link to emidln's doomday pile-compilation? I'd like to get into that a bit more.

[mercc]

@Pulp: I admit that LED-less has a disadvantage game 1 when going low on life, your chances can be nullified. In the board I have 2 angel's grace. From now on though I will try 1 main.

In the position I were in. 6 life, teeg on the board and 2 mindbreak traps in his hand. The LED-version would've just chanted, slaughter pacted teeg, then go the IT-IGG-way.

But for my deck... I had to have angels grace, slaughter pact, 2 pact of negation/1 pact/1 duress. Phew, that's alot.

Ok, in this scenario the LED-version wins.

But vs. all blue I just love playing with pacts vs force of will, the look on their face is beautiful. Chant does the same, but the 1 mana more is heavy, it doens't sound like it, but it is when facing cursecathers and daze's.

[Nemavera]

I posted this already on Stormboards, yet maybe you guys are interested :>

Tripple-Tournament-Report from 3 GPT;

First Report: 01/09/2010

Round 1: Canadian Threshold

G1: He starts with Tropical, go. I play Flooded Strand, go. He drops a Wasteland and a Goyf. I draw my card and my Hand is now: Petal, LED, DRit, CRit, Infernal, Ponder, Brainstorm. I win against anything but Force, cause I can pay for the Daze, so I go all in. He's got the Force pitching another Force.

G2: I keep a one-land hand, and after Brainstorm, shuffle via Mystical, Brainstorm I'm still stuck on my Island.

For the first time I lost against TempoTresh in a tournament -.-

0-1 (0-2)


Round 2: Sea-Stompy.

G1: He's got Chalice 1 and Chalice 0, and after gripping the Chalice at 1, he's got another Chalice 1....

G2: He's got Chalice 1 again, and then he drops a Standstill (!?) without having a critter. I just draw and try do get another land, yet I don't find a another land. At the time he's got 8 cards in Hand, he breaks his own Standstill and drops a second Chalice (at 0) along with another Standstill. I play some lands, he breaks his second Standstill and drops a Serendib Efreet and attempts to play a third Standstill. I bounce his Efreet in Response to his Standstill with Echoing Truth. Few Turns later he breaks his Standstill again, drops an Efreet along with a Chalice at 2. I grip the Chalice 2 eot, and in my turn I bounce the Chalice at 1 and at 0 via Hurkyl's Recall and win via 8 Spells => Tendrils (he took some damage from his Ancient Tomb)

G3: Similar to G2, just faster. He's got Chalice 0 and Chalice 1, yet doesn't find some pressure. Some turns later he's at 11 (due to Force + Ancient Tomb) and I cast 5 spells into the Chalice and win via Tendrils.

1-1 (2-3)


Round 3: Mono-B Hexmage Combo

G1: He starts with Swamp => Vampire Lacerator. I drop Land, Top, LED, LED, Petal. He beats me and drops a Gatekeeper. For the next 5 turns I'll do exactly the same thing: I look at the top 3 cards via Top, drop a fetchland, look in my top Top, fetch and spin Top again. After 5 Turns and fetching 4 times I still haven't found a tutor and get beaten to death.

G2: I start with Land, Top, LED, LED. He goes Swamp => Duress and takes my mystical. I drop a land, go. He plays a ritual => Hexmage and plays Dark Depths. At that moment I'm keeping just an Ad Nauseam and my Top shows me the LED, IGG, land. So I draw the LED, cast it, sacc all LED für 9 black, draw IGG via Top, cast it and return LED, LED, Ad Nauseam. Cast LED, LED, Ad Nauseam and sacc both LED in response => win.

G3: He's got another second Turn Dark Ritual => Hexmage + Dark Depths. At the end of my turn he summons Marit Lage and I bounce it via Echoing Truth. The next turn he's dead.

2-1 (4-4)


Round 4: Goblins

G1: I start with land => Top. He goes for Mountain => Vial. He doesn't have another Turn.

G2: He mulligans down to 4 and then concedes.

3-1 (2-0)


Round 5: Zoo.

G1: He's just a single lands and starts to beat me with 2x 2/2 nacatl. He's dead on Turn 3.

G2: He kept a hand with just one land and doesn't find pressure. AT some point I play 3 Spells => DD (Pile: Med, LP, Rit, Rit, IGG) and then cast the Tendrils from my hand for 10. He's dead next turn.

4-1 (8-4)


Round 6: Uwr Landstill (with CB Sideboard)

G1: I win on turn 4 after 2 Chants => Ad Nauseam => win.

G2: Due to 2 Carpets I have nearly endless mana and win after Chanting him three times => IGG-Loop

We're testing the matchup postboard and it ends 5-1 in my favor. I just loose a game where he's got 3 Balance + 2 Tops and an Elspeth. I even won some games where he had double Balance and double top due to casting 9 spells into his Balance and then Tendrils for lethal

5-1 (10-4)


Cutoff Top 8:

Round 7: Dredge (Bernhard Klinger, Muradin on TheSource)

I know that he'll have 4 Force and 4 Mindbreak Trap postboard.

G1: I keep a hand I should have mulliganed and win a turn before I'm dead.

G2: He mulligans down to 4 , I drop a Xantid Swarm, he forces. At this point he's got 3 cards in hand + City of Brass in play. Without any need I go for Ritual => Doomsday. He's got the Trap...

G3: I keep my seven and the following situation accurs: My board is: Land, Land, LED, Chrome Mox; my Hand is: Mystical, Chant (due to a therapy he knows it), D-Rit; he flashbacks a therapy, naming Chant, and in response (before he names the card) I play my mystical . Yet instead of searching for Ad Nauseam I search for Infernal Tutor.
Well, 3 Spells < Trap...

I guess I never played that bad before!

5-2 (11-6)

Due to Swiss I end end up being 5th and get a WB Plateau.




Second Report: 01/16/2010

Round 1 DragonStompy:

I play against a friend who went with me and know I'll be playing against Dragon Stompy:

G1: I win the diceroll and he mulligans down to 5. I drop a fetchland, fetch for Island => Ponder. He plays City of Traitors + Chrome Mox => Taurean Mauler. Next turn his Mauler has 13 counters, yet he's dead

G2: He starts with Bloodmoon, Chalice 0, go. I drop a land, go. He plays a land => Trinisphere, next Turn Chalice 1 and I get beaten to death.

G3: My first 7 cards are: Mystical, LED, LED, LED, Ponder, Hurkyls Recall, Ritual. So I mulligan down to 6 and keep a mediocrate hand. I fetch for Island. He's got T1 3-Sphere, T2 Magus, T3 Chalice 1, T4 Pit Dragon. T5 I'm dead....

0-1 (1-2)


Round 2: Goblins

I win the dice roll and my opponent tells me that he'll probably drop after this round, cause he know's what I'm playing.

G1: I start with Land => Top. He drops a Badlands => Lackey. I play a silence in his turn, he drops a Warchief. Then he's dead due to and IGG-Loop

G2: He goes land => Vial. I play land => Top. He wastes my land and I play land => Ponder. His Vial goes up to 2 and he drops a Rishadan Port and starts porting my land in my Upkeep, so I use the mana to spin Top. Then I drop another Land. Eot he puts a Warren Instigator into play. In his Turn he attacks me with Instigator + Warchief (putted via Vial) and drops a SiegeGang + Piledriver then plays another Piledriver. He taps my land and I see Tendrils, Recall, Land. as I spin my top. I draw the recall, play 3 Petals => Hurkyls Recall, play 3 Petals and then Ritual, Ritual, play Top and then draw Tendrils via Top => win.

1-1 (3-2)


Round 3: UWr Landstill

G1: We drop lots of Land, yet I have a Top, whichs resolves; On T5 he plays an Elspeth and T6 Ajani Vengeant + Standstill. I break his Standstill and we play 9 Spells (he plays Brainstorm and Counterspell) => Tendrils for 20, he forces and goes down to 1 (he used Ajani's Helix ability once). I draw my card: Mystical (known due to a Ponder). He uses Ajani's Helix ability again, then swords a token, pumped by Elspeth and goes up to 8. In my Upkeep I mystical for IGG and return: Silence, Infernal, Tendrils. I play IT for Silence, then Silence (he forces), then another Silence => Tendrils for lethal.

G2: I hes not clock and after Silence (he Counterspells), Chant (he forces) I resolve an Ad Nauseam => Win.

2-1 (5-2)


Round 4: UGbw Nassif CounterTop

G1: He has no Counterbalance, yet he's got Confidant + Top. I've got a single Top. He forces an Ad Nauseam; In his Turn his Confidant reveals a StoP and he draws his card. I try a Doomsday (he has 3 cards in hand), he spins top, then draws and forces again. He reveals Top, going down to 16, then he draws his cards, drops his Top and beats me. I play tripple LED and loop Tops into Tendrils for 18.

G2: I grip a Balance, he plays another and drops double top. Shortly after he extirpates my Brainstorm (Krosan Grip was removed due to Relic of Progenitus) and I get beaten to death by a Confidant + Goyf. After the Game he reveals: Brainstorm, Cryptic Command, Daze, Force, Force

G3: I grip a Balance and few turns later I play a Chant, he responds with Brainstorm, then forces. I play another Chant, it resolvs. I drop double LED and play a Brainstorm and sacc both LED in Response. My Brainstorm draws my ToA, I loop Tops and cast Tendrils für 22.

3-1 (7-3)


Runde 5: Belcher

I know that I'm going to play against Belcher.

G1: He wins the diceroll. I keep a hand with: Flooded, Top, Silence, Petal, Ritual, Delta, U-Sea. He starts with a "go". I drop Flooded, go. He plays Petal => Rite of Flame, remove Spirit Guide => Seething Song; I fetch and play a Silence. I play Top + drawn LED. Next Turn I spin Top and draw a Mystical. He tries to go off again, my mystical searches for a Chant. Next Turn I win via Ad Nauseam.

G2: I keep a solid hand, he plays a Land Grant and reveals: Chrome Mox, Empty the Warrens, SSG, ESG, Belcher, LED. He plays just a single land....

G3: We both mulligan down to 6; I play land => Top + Lotus Petal. He doesn't do anything. I spin Top on my upkeep and draw a Mystical Tutor. He makes 14 proplayers. My mystical searches for Echoing Truth, yet I'm still stuck on a single land. He beats me for 14. In my turn I bounce his 14 tokens, he doesn't have a Pyroblast. 2 Turns later I win via IGG => Doomsday => Tendrils for 34.

4-1 (9-4)


Round 6: Merfolk

G1: He's got double Force (Top and Chant) and at 12 life I resolve an Ad Nauseam. I reveal: Brainstorm, Land, Fetch, Silence, Top, Chant, IT, Land, Land, K-Grip, IGG => dead -.-

G2: He has Vial + Standstill and I get beaten by 2x Cursecatcher + Lord. Moreover he's got 3x Daze, 2x Spellpierce and double Force....Of course I don't have a Xantid Swarm.

4-2 (9-6)


Third Report: 01/23/2010

Round 1: Uwr Landstill (with CBalance postboard)

G1: We start a "Chant-war" which ends in 8 Spells => IT => IT => Tendrils

G2: He has three Counterbalances and I have all three Grips. On turn 35 or so I win via 8 Spells => Tendrils. He was at 14 life.

1-0 (2-0)

Round 2: Zoo

We play quite often against each other in tournament and he never won i single game :>

G1: He beats me down to 14 and I IGG-Loop him to death.

G2: He pyroblasts a mystical tutor, yet I have another and so I win on T3 via Ad Nauseam

2-0 (4-0)


Round 3: Merfolk

G1: I gamble on a first turn kill via IT => IGG-Loop, yet he's got the Force.

G2: I drop a Xantid Swarm on T1 => win

G3: He goes for Land => Cursecatcher. I play a lotus Petal, it resolves. Then I play a fetchland, fetch for Tropical and drop a Xantid Swarm. He dazes, I pay, then the Swarm resolves => win.

3-0 (6-1)


Round 4: Dreadstill

I ask him for an I.D. cause I know he's a good player. He accepts saying: It's much easier to win against anyone else in the last two matches to get T8, then against you :>

I.D.

3-0-1 (6-1-1)

Round 5: BGW Goodstuff

G1: He mulligans down to 6, then drops Plain, go. I play U-Sea, go. He plays a Bayou and drops a Qasali Pridemage. I mystical for Ad Nauseam and win in my turn.

G2: I keep a hand with Ritual, Land, Brainstorm, IT, LED, Lotus Petal, Land. He plays a Thoughtseize on T1 and takes my Infernal. I Brainstorm into nothing and after few turn the following situation accurs:
His board: 4 Lands, Qasali Pridemage, Tidehollow Sculler (he took a ritual), Ethersworn Canonist, Ethersworn Canonist. He ist at 19 life.

My board: 6 Lands, LED, Lotus Petal; my hand is: Hurkyl's Recall, Dark Ritual, Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal. I'm at 7 life.

Instead of just attacking me and winning the game, my opponent plays a Jitte, equips it, and attacks then. I play the Recall, bounce all his artifacts and go down to 5. The card I draw for my turn is: Top. I drop it, spin Top and find an Infernal Tutor: Yeah! :> drop mana, draw with Top => IT => IGG-Loop => win.

4-0-1 (8-1-1)

Round 6: CounterTop

We I.D. and play some Highlander.

4-0-2 (8-1-2)

Cutoff T8:

Round 7: Dragon Stompy

G1: He wins the diceroll and has the Goddraw...T1 Chalice 1, T2 Trinisphere, T3 Seething Song => Deus of Calamity.

G2: Not much to say. I boardet out all Chants and when I start comboing he Mindbreak Traps a IGG and then a meditate. I get beaten to death and he reveals a third Mindbreak Trap....

Seems to be impossible for me to win that Matchup -.-

In the end I'm again 5th and get a WB Volcanic Island.

Nevertheless Stormcombo IS the best deck in the format :> I just don't know whether to play NLS or DD/ANT :

[Nidd]

Oh, Nemavera, you were the second DDANT player on the 3rd GPT in Nürnberg? I watched you playing against Dragon Stompy T8 and I nearly started drooling. Nice Tropicals.

I got totally humiliated, went 2-4. Well, if SDT with 3 Fetches, 3 Brainstorm and 2 Ponder don't get me a kill, nothing will...

[Nemavera]

Exactly :> Well I guess I'm trying to get some beta ones as soon as I have the 4 missing jap foil fetchlands.

[Dia_Bot]

just a little question to Nemavera: the 3 reports, did you always play with DD Ant in those cases?

PS: could someone tell me what the most important benefit is of playing NLS over DD ant?
(becouse people start playing maindeck hatebears in my local meta so i wonder if it would be a good idea to switch from DD ant to NLS)

[Henrik]

What is NLS exactly?
The Hybrid of ANT and TES, running red mainly for Burning Wish?

[Nidd]

That's it pretty much. Also, most NLS lists run Discard over Chants.

[johanessen]

G2: He's got Chalice 1 again, and then he drops a Standstill (!?) without having a critter. I just draw and try do get another land, yet I don't find a another land. At the time he's got 8 cards in Hand, he breaks his own Standstill and drops a second Chalice (at 0) along with another Standstill. I play some lands, he breaks his second Standstill and drops a Serendib Efreet and attempts to play a third Standstill. I bounce his Efreet in Response to his Standstill with Echoing Truth. Few Turns later he breaks his Standstill again, drops an Efreet along with a Chalice at 2. I grip the Chalice 2 eot, and in my turn I bounce the Chalice at 1 and at 0 via Hurkyl's Recall and win via 8 Spells => Tendrils (he took some damage from his Ancient Tomb)

That guy is incredible! Amazing skillz.

[Henrik]

Also, most NLS lists run Discard over Chants.

Can you say why that is?
Thanks!

[emidln]

NLS plays Duress effects because I couldn't make a 5c manabase work without City of Brass/Gemstone Mine. I tried (a lot) but it never came to be something I was happy with (you cut down to too few fetches and weaken Brainstorm and SDT significantly).

NLS was designed to play the two best storm engines in the format (Ad Nauseam and Doomsday). It has backup plans of Infernal Tutor->IGG and Empty the Warrens (off Burning Wish). Because of the tutor configuration (4 Mystical, 4 Wish, 0-1 Infernal Tutor) you're more likely to cast Doomsday (8-9 tutors + 1 dd) than Ad Nauseam (4-5 tutors + 1 adn), but you're significantly more likely to cast either of those than IT->IGG or ETW. This is good because DD and AdN are amongst the cheapest ways to win in Magic. This is bad if you aren't intimately familiar with Doomsday piles since at least half of the time you will want to cast the card to win. NLS has several pass the turn piles that can beat an opponent from 18-22 life, can easily win through Chalice effects, mostly ignores hatebears (even game one), and still has Empty the Warrens available to it.

NLS comes in two varieties for protection: white splash de-emphasizing green and green splash ignoring/deemphasizing white. The white stuff NLS wants to play:

Orim's Chant
Silence
Disenchant
Serenity
Vindicate

The green stuff NLS wants to play:

Xantid Swarm
Krosan Grip
Reverent Silence
Ancient Grudge (flashback cost is G and without that, it's Shatter)
eases the use of Vexing Shusher (additional source to cast and use his ability)

When NLS plays without white, 4-7 maindeck slots are eaten up by a combination of Duress, Thoughtseize, and/or Xantid Swarm (yes, I have and do maindeck Xantid Swarms and they are clutch). I've yet to play the deck with maindeck Pyroblasts and I don't foresee a future where I would. I'm able to win the tempo matchup (Merfolk, Canadian Thresh, that shitty Bant deck) without Orim's Chant although it takes a lot more work inside each game carefully playing my discard so I don't consider Chant to be absolutely necessary. Duress, amongst the obvious benefits of being able to take some important permanent-based hate, can hit mass removal like EE, Firespout, Wrath, etc to enable ETW. This is big in certain matchups (CB) where they generally have very few good answers for it. I don't think believe the manabase instability caused by Chant is worth the increased tempo matchup when you can already win it through tight play the majority of the time anyway.

[Henrik]

Thank you for that explanation.

I am not prepared to bring DD to a tournament just yet, but as I get to it, I might consider trying NLS. Are these DD-with-burning-wish-go-piles written down in your DD-pile summary? I have read that but didn't think of examining those piles closer.

So I take it you have already tested this version in tournament play with good results?


EDIT:

Oh, and an updated list or a reference to what page in this thread I can find your latest list, would also help. Thanks!

[Dia_Bot]

emidln, thank you for the information, certainly very interesting!
I think i'm gonna sleeve up a NLS deck and start testing :)

[Nemavera]

Yeah, played the DD/ANT Hybrid all three times. The first two reports were played with my list from Hanau. In the third tournament I played the same list but -1 Carpet of Flowers +1 Xantid Swarm.

[mercc]

Nemavera: Serenity in SB against dragonstompy?

[GoldenCid]

And..what about burn?? I didn't read a report against that deck. I craps our ADN win cond.

[emidln]

And..what about burn?? I didn't read a report against that deck. I craps our ADN win cond.

1) That deck is terrible so you don't expect to play against it past round 1.
2) No it doesn't see cards like Orim's Chant, Silence, and Ill-Gotten Gains.

[Crimen]

A friend of mine is starting to test extract against this deck and it really is a horrible card against me. You guys think this card is going to be played in the tournament scene (or already is)? and what would be my best answer against this card? I'm thinking about including a 2e tendrils SB, but what do you guys think would be best to do?

[Dia_Bot]

In my meta most people play mindbreak trap over extract, but if people start to play extract in your meta you could either add one more tendrils to the sideboard or go the NLS way. That way you're always safe against those cards becouse of burning wish. Or even a hybrid version like citanul's list with 2 burning wishes will protect you against extract-like cards + it has the additional wishboard answer against maindeck hatebears.

[Illissius]

What you do against it is nothing because no one plays it.

For the record, I was looking through deckcheck the other day precisely to evaluate the viability of Extract as a sideboard plan against Tendrils, and there were too many lists with either more than one Tendrils, or Burning Wish and another in the board, to make that a plan I'd be interested in pursuing.

[Van Phanel]

I just wanted to mention that Carpet of Flowers is going to be improved with the next oracle update:

It will be possible to gain the mana postcombat thus improving the synergy with Xantid Swarm.

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/75b&page=2


New wording
At the beginning of each of your main phases, if you haven't added mana to your mana pool with Carpet of Flowers this turn, you may add up to X mana of any one color to your mana pool, where X is the number of Islands target opponent controls.

Now this is obviously not the reinvention of the Wheel, but especially against Merfolk I've actually had that come up in testing every now and then.

[Crimen]

In my meta most people play mindbreak trap over extract, but if people start to play extract in your meta you could either add one more tendrils to the sideboard or go the NLS way. That way you're always safe against those cards becouse of burning wish. Or even a hybrid version like citanul's list with 2 burning wishes will protect you against extract-like cards + it has the additional wishboard answer against maindeck hatebears.

Thanks for the advise. It seems the card looks more scary against ANT then it will really be in tournaments, since most don't play it and some people play 2e tendrils or burning wish. I like the idea of burning wish, will be looking into NLS a little bit. For now it will be /ignore my friend and just add another tendrils in my deck before I play him casually ^^

[Piceli89]

I just wanted to mention that Carpet of Flowers is going to be improved with the next oracle update:

It will be possible to gain the mana postcombat thus improving the synergy with Xantid Swarm.

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/75b&page=2



Now this is obviously not the reinvention of the Wheel, but especially against Merfolk I've actually had that come up in testing every now and then.

This is just great. Carpet of Flowers is going to be furtherly strong against blue decks, since you can trick them in the main combat starting a counterwar with Chants, and they usually tap mana from islands before playing daze, to bluff brainstorm or other counters/stifle.Now you get to pass to the combat and empty their pool while keeping yours!

[alderon666]

Yeah, this solidifies green in the sideboard of ANT. I really love Xantid Swarm as my meta is filled with merfolk and Carpet of Flowers is just awesome against mana denial strategies and Daze-like counters. Being able to use them togheter is just awesome.

[Nemavera]

Nemavera: Serenity in SB against dragonstompy?

The problem with serenity is that you cannot tutor for it, so you have to play 3+ and an additional plains in your board. Usually in my meta there are a maximum of 2 DragonStompy for every 50 people, so I don't want to waste a SB-Slot for a matchup I rarely get. Furthermore, the matchup stays a uphill battle, especially if your opponents starts boarding Mindbreak Traps. All in all, I more or less ignore this matchup, as goblins does with combo. I prefer playing some cards that are more flexible, like Hurkyl's Recall, Echoing Truth or K-Grip than Serenity.

[Aginor]

Hi The Source!

I've been reading this thread "from the outside" for quite a while now but finally decided to dig in.

As an old stax-player I've totally changed direction and decided to play AnT instad. It's been a couple of months now and I gotta say that I like the LED-less list better. Does anyone else play without it? 95% of the AnT-decks on deckcheck seems to play LED.

My list:

4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Plains

4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Orim's Chant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Pact of Negation
3 Cabal Ritual
2 Ad Nauseam
1 Angel's Grace

4 Ponder
4 Duress
1 Tendrils of Agony

4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Any thought about the list? I like playing pacts and it's the reason I stopped playing LED. How do you manage without it? :p

//Chris

[jegger]

I just wanted to mention that Carpet of Flowers is going to be improved with the next oracle update:

It will be possible to gain the mana postcombat thus improving the synergy with Xantid Swarm.

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/75b&page=2


You can also take mana in the same turn you play it.

[katakis]

You can also take mana in the same turn you play it.

Good catch! Wow... that makes Carpet of Flowers sooooo good.

[badjuju]

Good catch! Wow... that makes Carpet of Flowers sooooo good.

Yea no kidding. A green ritual. Awesome.

[johanessen]

Yep. They'll reword it again when they see the bug. New wording will be:

"At the beginning of each of your main phases, if you haven't added mana to your mana pool with Carpet of Flowers this turn and haven't played Carpet of Flowers this turn, you may add up to X mana of any one color to your mana pool, where X is the number of Islands target opponent controls. "


Now it's clearly overpowered. As they said, that wording was not working as intended, and now isn't working as intended too.

[rufus]

Now [carpet of flowers is] clearly overpowered. As they said, that wording was not working as intended, and now isn't working as intended too.

While I expect them to change it as you describe to match the original function of the card, it really doesn't seem like it's all that OP for it to produce mana on the same turn.

[Dia_Bot]

I agree, it's awsome but i wouldn't call it overpowered. Don't forget it's a sideboard card after all.

[Adan]

By the way, I'm not sure whether ppl have already dealt with the discussion, but I'd like to know whether you can change the configuration of the disruption of DDANT.

From what I saw, DDANt plays 4 Chant, 2 Silence and 1 Grip. Would it be possible to switch 2 Silences and the Grip for 3 Duress? It gives you some outs against Chalices and Counterbalances without weakening your maindeck manabase (the Tropical Island can be moved to the Sb then).

I also feel like 6 Chant-effects are redundant like hell and they make the Chromes offcolor.

[Piceli89]

By the way, I'm not sure whether ppl have already dealt with the discussion, but I'd like to know whether you can change the configuration of the disruption of DDANT.

From what I saw, DDANt plays 4 Chant, 2 Silence and 1 Grip. Would it be possible to switch 2 Silences and the Grip for 3 Duress? It gives you some outs against Chalices and Counterbalances without weakening your maindeck manabase (the Tropical Island can be moved to the Sb then).

I also feel like 6 Chant-effects are redundant like hell and they make the Chromes offcolor.

I feel that 6 chants are useless too, frankly. Often they stuck in the initial hand as 2-ofs and they slow down the deck a lot, and against non-blue I'd rather have Duress which can grab a Burn spell or a discard then delay a turn my opponent, a thing that most of the time won't do the job properly because you won't go off the turn after, resulting in a semi-useless, partial delay. I'm currently trying 4 Chant and 2 Duresses in DDANT and it's surely better, even if not enough to stop Counterbalance. I also cut the maindeck Krosan Grip, too situational to be useful when you need it (against CB and Trinispheres, Chalices) also considering that tha cards that could grab it are the ones that suffer most the cards you mentioned. The only thing I don't like about Duresses is that since combo has so much risen these days, playing a Duress off USea the first turn is a clear word of what you're playing (but I guess this also applies to someone playing blue fetchlands and taking time with cantrips doing nothing til the 3rd turn or so.)
I'd suggest you to try that configuration, too; you can add the third Duress, or just accelerating the deck with a 3rd Cabal Ritual (not recommended) or a Ponder (it's better).

[Adan]

I feel that 6 chants are useless too, frankly. Often they stuck in the initial hand as 2-ofs and they slow down the deck a lot, and against non-blue I'd rather have Duress which can grab a Burn spell or a discard then delay a turn my opponent, a thing that most of the time won't do the job properly because you won't go off the turn after, resulting in a semi-useless, partial delay. I'm currently trying 4 Chant and 2 Duresses in DDANT and it's surely better, even if not enough to stop Counterbalance. I also cut the maindeck Krosan Grip, too situational to be useful when you need it (against CB and Trinispheres, Chalices) also considering that tha cards that could grab it are the ones that suffer most the cards you mentioned. The only thing I don't like about Duresses is that since combo has so much risen these days, playing a Duress off USea the first turn is a clear word of what you're playing (but I guess this also applies to someone playing blue fetchlands and taking time with cantrips doing nothing til the 3rd turn or so.)
I'd suggest you to try that configuration, too; you can add the third Duress, or just accelerating the deck with a 3rd Cabal Ritual (not recommended) or a Ponder (it's better).

That was EXACTLY my train of thought. I'm currently running a 3rd Ponder instead of the Grip as well (love that card) but my idea was to switch that Ponder (which was initially a Grip) together with 2 Silences for Duresses. 4 Chant 3 Duress seem to be solid and 3 Duress are okay to stop Balance.

[johanessen]

I think it`s pretty mandatory to have a bouncer maindecked, there are too much decks with counterbalances, trinispheres, gaddock teegs, even chalices though we can still win through them. Not sure to play Wipe Away against Krosan, but it`s also an option.

[badjuju]

I think it`s pretty mandatory to have a bouncer maindecked, there are too much decks with counterbalances, trinispheres, gaddock teegs, even chalices though we can still win through them. Not sure to play Wipe Away against Krosan, but it`s also an option.

I agree. I cut the MB KGrip for a third Ponder last tourney and I regretted doing so very much. But then again I played vs CB Bant and then Faerie Stompie right after. I haven't really seen Teeg around, but if Bant Survival becomes more popular, that Grip might turn into a Wipe Away.

Chant redundancy has been great for me. It really puts the pressure on U-based decks, but I will admit that it's pretty ass after CB/Top assembles. Maybe the change from Silence/Grip to Duress might be the perfect middle solution. Don't forget though that Chant-walking aggro is pretty effective for setting up with Mystical and the likes.

[Rico Suave]

I feel that 6 chants are useless too, frankly. Often they stuck in the initial hand as 2-ofs and they slow down the deck a lot, and against non-blue I'd rather have Duress ...

I'd rather have Duress even against blue.

[alderon666]

I'd rather have Duress even against blue.

If you cast it the turn before going off they can have a Brainstorm and hide the counter(s) on top. If they have a Top in play, it just gets ugly. Against multiple counters it's bad, Stifle, Spell Snare, Mindbreak Trap + other stuff, burn if you go DD or even Ad Nauseam, doesn't help you IGG looping.

Duress is effective sometimes, but sometimes it just plain sucks ass. I'm testing 3 Duress, 4 Chants and 1 Silence and it has been going well.

[Rico Suave]

If you cast it the turn before going off they can have a Brainstorm and hide the counter(s) on top. If they have a Top in play, it just gets ugly. Against multiple counters it's bad, Stifle, Spell Snare, Mindbreak Trap + other stuff, burn if you go DD or even Ad Nauseam, doesn't help you IGG looping.

Duress is effective sometimes, but sometimes it just plain sucks ass. I'm testing 3 Duress, 4 Chants and 1 Silence and it has been going well.

Yes, that is possible.

It's also possible that Duress will wreck them by taking their CB, give vital information to set up your development, and clear the way on the combo turn.

The best approach though is as you mentioned; run a split of both.

[Adan]

Okay, the reason why I'd like to play Duress:

In my metagame, there's juts a few Counterbalance. Only 2-3 Dreadstill running around, that's all. BUT there are some Chalice-Aggros and Aggroloams. These decks are very dependant on keeping a Chalice or a 3Sphere against you, if you just duress it away they usually cry and watch how you rape them 2 turns afterwards.

I have experienced that I've always lost against Counterbalance as it was very hard to tutor up the Grip and then win against the remaining counters they keep in hand. I have also no possibility to deal with 2 Counterbalances in any case. That's why I'd just accept my loss and just shift the hate to the SB to be more consistent.

The Chant effects are okay because they also back you up against Burnspells, but Duress is cool because it can also slow your opponent down (stealing a Aether Vial against Merfolk for example). Sure, Silence can act as a Timewalk, but I'm not really convinced by that.

[Henrik]

I play 3 Duress, 2 Silence, 3 Orim's Chant, 1 Wipe Away.

That's 9 disruption slots, I have a control-heavy meta.

I agree with all reasons to play duress stated above. I also believe that you should adjust this to your liking depending on your own meta, so I if you have good reasons to play 8 chant effects instead, then do that.

I would never leave home without a bounce in main deck though! It could just as well be chain of vapor really, since a Counterbalance pre-board is usually a lose anyway. But I like believing that someday the split second will have an impact. But seriously, storm-hate is finding a lot of slots of peoples maindecks right now. Bant play meddling mage main, and in tournaments I play, zoo players have stuffed 4 (four!) Gaddock Teeg in maindeck.

[Nizmox]

I would never leave home without a bounce in main deck though! It could just as well be chain of vapor really, since a Counterbalance pre-board is usually a lose anyway.

I don't recommend chain of vapor maindeck because it's no good against chalice. The singleton wipe away in my list I hope will be able to save me (or at least give me a chance to beat) from CB and chalice in game 1 should they have it.




Any thought about the list? I like playing pacts and it's the reason I stopped playing LED. How do you manage without it? :p



Firstly I do think LED is really an essential card in ANT, and gives a massive boost to speed. If you're removing it I would want to replace it with more mana accelaration and not disruption.
But looking at your list my biggest concern is the lack of tutors. I wouldn't run less than 7-8 tutors in ANT simply because if you use a mystical to fetch Ad-Nauseum you're probably going to need another to fetch Tendrils. I think with your list you're going to run into trouble going off, do you find this in playtesting?

[badjuju]

Just tested for like 2 hours against CB Bant (or Supreme Blue or whatever it's called) using 3x Duress over 2x Silence/1x Grip MD.

It's marginally helpful, and I can honestly say that there were some games where a Grip would have kept me in the game and some games where having the Duress was crucial for stopping that early CB. Overall though, the inclusion of Duress has more positives than negatives. I really miss having the hand information, and stealing CB and/or Top is golden. Another thing about MD Grip is that A) it sucks off Ad Nauseum and B) you usually have to give up a Mystical for it. That means slowing yourself down A LOT and possibly giving them enough time to come back with Rhox War Monk.

Post board games were awesome with the new Carpet rule changes. I bring in 11 cards vs them and I absolutely love how g2 and g3 play now with the Swarm/Carpet split.

[Dia_Bot]

I recently made the same changes to my deck as Yesmilord and i must say i really like it. Having a black mana disruption spell is sometimes very usefull, for instance when you want to play 2 disruption spells in the same turn. It's easier to get one black and one white mana then 2 white becouse you'll need the black mana anyway to combo that turn.The only downside is that when you dont play grip or wipe away you have no answers to a maindeck teeg or ethersworn cannonist. But like Yesmilord said I also think the positives outweigh the negatives.

[Gocho]

Just tested for like 2 hours against CB Bant (or Supreme Blue or whatever it's called) using 3x Duress over 2x Silence/1x Grip MD.

It's marginally helpful, and I can honestly say that there were some games where a Grip would have kept me in the game and some games where having the Duress was crucial for stopping that early CB. Overall though, the inclusion of Duress has more positives than negatives. I really miss having the hand information, and stealing CB and/or Top is golden. Another thing about MD Grip is that A) it sucks off Ad Nauseum and B) you usually have to give up a Mystical for it. That means slowing yourself down A LOT and possibly giving them enough time to come back with Rhox War Monk.

Post board games were awesome with the new Carpet rule changes. I bring in 11 cards vs them and I absolutely love how g2 and g3 play now with the Swarm/Carpet split.

11 cards?
I can think in 3 Xantid, 3 Carpet, 2 Krosan, but I don't have idea about the other 3.
Deathmark and Slaughter Pact?
Chain of Vapor?

[Dia_Bot]

probably also a tropical island

[Nemavera]

Usually 2 additional Doomsday, maybe Slaughter Pact and a Tropical Island

[badjuju]

11 cards?
I can think in 3 Xantid, 3 Carpet, 2 Krosan, but I don't have idea about the other 3.
Deathmark and Slaughter Pact?
Chain of Vapor?


Usually 2 additional Doomsday, maybe Slaughter Pact and a Tropical Island

Yep. Like so:

-2 Infernal Tutor
-2 Chrome Mox
-2 Cabal Ritual
-1 Ad Nauseum
-3 Lotus Petal
-1 Duress/Ponder

+3 Xantid Swarm
+3 Carpet of Flowers
+2 Krosan Grip
+2 Doomsday
+1 Tropical Island

I might still want the third Grip somewhere. I just don't feel safe with only two.
If I see or suspect Meddling Mage, then yes, Chris is right about the Slaughter Pact.
Chris also likes to take out a third Infernal Tutor (or at least used to). It's preference I think. Infernal Tutor is obviously worse without more Chants and Ad Nauseum, but I still like its synergy enough with LEDs to keep it in. Keeping in Ad Nauseum is also okay sometimes IMO, cause control decks will tend to keep slow hands with lots of disruption. A lot of times you can go the first 5-6 turns unscathed.

All the people who say they have done well with REB or Chain of Vapor against CB...uhhh, you're either a lucksack or just flat out lying. Anything that is 1CC to deal with CB is very difficult to pull off. There are only very small windows of opportunity where you can get rid of it with a 1CC spell, and even then you're risking that they don't have counter backup.

[Scordata]

Hey guys. This is my first post in this thread, but I've been playing storm for about 5 months now, so I know the ins and outs.
One thing I've been testing lately, and would like some feedback on, is my disruption package.
Typically I had been running 4 Chants and 2 silences, with a Kgrip in the MD. While these cards have their obvious uses, I have since replaced them
with 4 Xantid Swarms and 3 Duress.
My reasoning for this was that almost any aggro deck was a by in the first place, so the chants/silences in my hand were a waste of time.
Also, while chants and silences are ok against control, Xantid Swarm is like a silence on an isochron scepter for G. Against merfolk, a Duress protected Xantid is almost certainly game.
An additional benefit to this is cutting out White from the deck entirely. While its always fun going Tundra SdT on turn one, this, in my humble experience, has left me one black mana short on more occasions than I would like to recall.
Furthermore, against Zoo and the like, Xantid Swarm can also say "Gain 4 life" when Tarmogoyf is on the table.
Unless I'm missing something here, Chant and silence just dosn't make the cut.
I'll post my decklist after work tonight, any and all replies would be greatly appreciated.

[badjuju]

Hey guys. This is my first post in this thread, but I've been playing storm for about 5 months now, so I know the ins and outs.
One thing I've been testing lately, and would like some feedback on, is my disruption package.
Typically I had been running 4 Chants and 2 silences, with a Kgrip in the MD. While these cards have their obvious uses, I have since replaced them
with 4 Xantid Swarms and 3 Duress.
My reasoning for this was that almost any aggro deck was a by in the first place, so the chants/silences in my hand were a waste of time.
Also, while chants and silences are ok against control, Xantid Swarm is like a silence on an isochron scepter for G. Against merfolk, a Duress protected Xantid is almost certainly game.
An additional benefit to this is cutting out White from the deck entirely. While its always fun going Tundra SdT on turn one, this, in my humble experience, has left me one black mana short on more occasions than I would like to recall.
Furthermore, against Zoo and the like, Xantid Swarm can also say "Gain 4 life" when Tarmogoyf is on the table.
Unless I'm missing something here, Chant and silence just dosn't make the cut.
I'll post my decklist after work tonight, any and all replies would be greatly appreciated.

Alright, first off, are we talking DDANT or just regular ANT? Cause I have many comments if you are playing DDANT.

-Xantid Swarm is fine MD, but think about a few things. It turns on the removal that they have game 1 and you need to fetch out the Tropical / use a Petal. I noticed how you were complaining about the Tundra - this is only adding to your problems.
-And while we're on the subject of the Tundra, I have NEVER had a problem with the mana base. This deck is not designed to splurge in your opponent's face, it's been formatted to have a better chance against U-based decks, and therefore you will usually not win with your opening hand (barring the nuts). Reaching black mana is just a matter of time and sculpting.
-Chant-walking aggro (and Ichorid) is extremely underrated. I don't know why people can't see its usefulness game 1. It's not the best card, obviously, but it is far from dead.

I think the idea has merit, and is worth testing for sure. It's just the removal game 1 that is making me really hesitant to run MD Swarms. But then again, emidln, Bryant, and PF have all been running Swarm MD backed by Duress in their most recent Burning Wish lists without any problems.

[emidln]

In lists that would be running 3-4 Krosan Grip I've been cutting a Krosan Grip for a Wipe Away for a few months now. With the upswing in UBW decks like Survival Bant and UGW Tempo I see a lot more Meddling Mage and Slaughter Pact/Deathmark isn't always a good solution.

I've been playing 10 protection pretty consistently in NLS for several months now. 4 Duress, 2 Thoughtseize, 4 Xantid Swarm with something like a 3/3 or 3/2 split with Swarms and Duresses first. I don't expect to switch anytime soon except in test builds with 4 Empty the Warrens.

[Scordata]

Thanks for the input, yesmilord.
First off, Its DDANT.
To address your concerns:
Admittedly, I too was cautious of turning on their removal game 1, but the more I thought about it, if a Zoo player wants to path my swarm, the extra land I get only helps me, and if they bolt it, or whatever, that's 3 less damage that was just thrown at my head.
Also, the reason I wanted to get rid of White, and I should have made this more clear, was in that none of the deck's post board cards are in that color. Green and blue provide the best removal, and it feels like we are pulling combo into white only for chant.
Chant walking IS important, but that play, at least in my meta, usually sees a wasteland, since its their best/only move.
So, where I could have Duressed them, or pulled something up with mystical, I end up just wasting a turn and down a land.

As promised the decklist:
// Lands
1 [ZEN] Island (1)
3 [B] Underground Sea
2 [U] Tropical Island
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn

// Creatures
4 [SC] Xantid Swarm

// Spells
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [TE] Meditate
1 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [6E] Mystical Tutor
4 [MM] Brainstorm
2 [M10] Ponder
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [A] Dark Ritual
3 [TO] Cabal Ritual
3 [US] Duress
1 [WL] Doomsday

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Duress
SB: 1 [A] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [R] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 2 [WL] Doomsday
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [US] Carpet of Flowers

[Dia_Bot]

I can see the point of playing xantid swarm in the chant spot but doing that will give some deck the chance to play otherwise dead cards (for instance landstill will be able to play wrath of god, humility). Other cards played by alot of decks like Swords to plowshares aren't always a dead cards but will be way more usefull if you play xantids instead of chants.
Now i never actually tested the swarm maindeck so perhaps maybe the upside of playing one color less does outweigh the downside. Can someone who tested this a lot give me some insight on this subject?

[Aginor]

Firstly I do think LED is really an essential card in ANT, and gives a massive boost to speed. If you're removing it I would want to replace it with more mana accelaration and not disruption.
But looking at your list my biggest concern is the lack of tutors. I wouldn't run less than 7-8 tutors in ANT simply because if you use a mystical to fetch Ad-Nauseum you're probably going to need another to fetch Tendrils. I think with your list you're going to run into trouble going off, do you find this in playtesting?

It's true that the list is slower than lists playing with LED. I usually win on turn 3 or 4 but sometimes faster of course. But I almost never "gamble" by playing AdN into an opponent that might have FoW.

I think 4 tuturs is enough due to all the shuffle/search effects in the deck. I also think you expose yourself too much by tutoring. Your entire plan may be wasted if it gets countered and you also reveal what your next move will be. By searching/shuffling it's all hidden.

It might be the wrong approach but I like playing the deck a little safer (i.e slower).

Don't you miss playing pact of negation? With a pact and duress in your opening hand you are almost guaranteed to go off safely.

[Henrik]

All the people who say they have done well with REB or Chain of Vapor against CB...uhhh, you're either a lucksack or just flat out lying. Anything that is 1CC to deal with CB is very difficult to pull off. There are only very small windows of opportunity where you can get rid of it with a 1CC spell, and even then you're risking that they don't have counter backup.


Who says so? Didn't read that statement in anywhere in the last 3 pages or so.

If you refer to my post about bounce MD I think yoy misinterpreted me. I said I could just as well play Chain of Vapor as Wipe Away, since CB pre-board is like 10-90 in their favor anyway. Even with Grips post-board I tend to lose, I would lie if I denied it.

If you didn't refer to my post at all, then we're cool.

[badjuju]

Who says so? Didn't read that statement in anywhere in the last 3 pages or so.

If you refer to my post about bounce MD I think yoy misinterpreted me. I said I could just as well play Chain of Vapor as Wipe Away, since CB pre-board is like 10-90 in their favor anyway. Even with Grips post-board I tend to lose, I would lie if I denied it.

If you didn't refer to my post at all, then we're cool.

I'm not referring to anyone in specific, please don't be offended lol.

I just wanted to state that REB has been pretty bad in testing.

[emidln]

Scordata, your list is missing 1 Sensei's Divining Top. There isn't a valid reason for not playing 4 copies in that list.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Running Swarm in the main as protection is an alright idea. When emidln started doing that in NLS I decided to try it out in TES and I really like Swarm main. But here is the problem, the Hybrid is not as explosive as TES is which is why I don't like the idea of my protection spell being a creature. And there are certain situations where you need to play a Chant then win. Having only access to Duress can be crippling. Games where you could just go: Chant - IGG - win are no longer plausible since your protection spell got StPed or EEed away a couple turn earlier so you have to rely on Duress to win, which is fine if you have Top in play (for IT into DD), but if you don't then your Duress is basically worthless.

However, the idea of cutting a color is intriguing. Running a protection suite of 3x Swarm and 3x Duress with a manabase that includes 2 basic lands is pretty good! That is really the only thing that I like about this idea. I guess it makes more room in the board as well but ... I just don't think ANT has enough raw explosiveness to justify playing Swarm in the main. TES does, and with TES you don't have the luxury of Top to filter out your draws and setup your game plan. The longer the game goes the more vulnerable Swarm is, Chant can come out of nowhere and win games because you have been shaping your hand against the control player and pick the perfect time to go for it. They have a whole turn to answer Swarm and Duress does not answer Force + Blue card and Spell Snare/Stifle in the opponent's hand.

[Adan]

First off, Its DDANT.

[...]

3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

[...]

1 [WL] Doomsday

NOOT!


Scordata, your list is missing 1 Sensei's Divining Top. There isn't a valid reason for not playing 4 copies in that list.

Aye, Sensei's Divining Top has to be a 4-of in anything that plays Doomsday as it's the free cantrip/the card that is stored on the board.

In addition to that it makes the deck very consistent.

By the way, the 2 additional Doomsday copies in the Sb, against what are they boarded in actually? And do you keep a few Chant-effects maindecked against everything that plays Burn?
This question just came up because I usually build the Brainstorm-SDT piles more often than the piles that use Meditate. Paying half of my lifetotal in order to get barbecued after I resolve IGG doesn't sound really sexy to me.

[Scordata]

The doomsdays in the board are there against CB and its ilk.
Yesmilord posted the boarding plan a few posts above mine.
Also SdT is usually a 4 of, I just cut one for more acceleration recently, and I'm seeing how that goes.

The problem is that there is a lot of merfolk swimming in my meta.
So yeah, there can be problems with Swarm MD, but the trade off
with Chant has been interesting, and so far, beneficial.

[Dia_Bot]

admittedly in a merfolk infested meta maindeck swarms must be awsome.

[Rune]

Hey, I have 2 questions for you guys:

Have any of you ever tried/considered running Boseiju or do you think it's total garbage?

Which maindeck bounce do you think is best, Wipe Away or Rushing River?

[badjuju]

@Adan

Yea, the Doomsdays come in vs U-based matchups. Why? Because we usually side out our Infernal Tutor package. This is to make sure we still maintain the amount of storm engines in the deck post-board. I'm still experimenting with keeping/siding Ad Nauseam in the U-matchups - sometimes I really want it and other times they have an early clock and it's just useless.


admittedly in a merfolk infested meta maindeck swarms must be awsome.

And so are 4 Tops. Even if NOT for Doomsday, they are a godsend against any blue deck. It makes so many unkeepable hands all of a sudden look pretty good.


Hey, I have 2 questions for you guys:

Have any of you ever tried/considered running Boseiju or do you think it's total garbage?

Which maindeck bounce do you think is best, Wipe Away or Rushing River?

Boseiju won't work as well as you'd think it would. It has dissynergy with Ad Nauseam from the life loss, it comes into play tapped, it can't always be counted on because it can be wasted, there's no way to fetch it out when you need it, and if someone sees that you have one in play they'll just try and counter your mana accelerants and setups spells instead. Not worth it.

Rushing River is better against Chalice-based decks since it can bounce multiple artifacts, but Wipe Away is better vs U-based decks since it can't be countered (except by CB).

[Rune]

@Adan
Boseiju won't work as well as you'd think it would. It has dissynergy with Ad Nauseam from the life loss, it comes into play tapped, it can't always be counted on because it can be wasted, there's no way to fetch it out when you need it, and if someone sees that you have one in play they'll just try and counter your mana accelerants and setups spells instead. Not worth it.


Yeah, I guess you are right. I was thinking that Boseiju + Abeyance would be really nice against blue decks that didn't have Wastelands (or decks that didn't draw them), but it doesn't shut down CB decks effectively so it's probably not worth it in the end.

[Henrik]

Regarding Oracle change of Carpet of Flowers:

Is the change in effect right now, or when will it go into effect?

(I imagine some quarrels with both players and judges before the errata has been wide-spread.)

[citanul]

The errata is in effect. I and several other players played it last weekend and I have seen 0 people calling for a judge on this.

[rsaunder]

So how exactly does Carpet of Flowers work again? Has it been errated so that you can just slap your opponent in the face or does it still just add mana?

/half serious

[badjuju]

So how exactly does Carpet of Flowers work again? Has it been errated so that you can just slap your opponent in the face or does it still just add mana?

/half serious

That's what citanul was talking about.
Nobody called a judge when he slapped his opponents in the face.
Good card.

[Maggical]

I keep seeing Angel's Grace on this deck's sideboard, why do you use that card? Against who? How is it good if you end up in 1 life and not beeing able to use Ad Nauseam?

I play a similar build on a casual Vintage with friends and was curious about the sideboard...

[Elf_Ascetic]

I keep seeing Angel's Grace on this deck's sideboard, why do you use that card? Against who? How is it good if you end up in 1 life and not beeing able to use Ad Nauseam?

I play a similar build on a casual Vintage with friends and was curious about the sideboard...

You can still loose life when you're under 1. You can't PAY life, but that's not what your doing with Ad. So, Ad Nauseam grabs your deck, and you throw a tendrils to your opponents face.

[Maggical]

You can still loose life when you're under 1. You can't PAY life, but that's not what your doing with Ad. So, Ad Nauseam grabs your deck, and you throw a tendrils to your opponents face.

Oh, I didn't realized that... Then it's a great card to play against aggro decks and you start comboing with less than 10 life...

[4eak]

Nice against decks with burn (not that you really need it that much). Swap out a Chant (normally not so important against Zoo) for a Grace, and you can go hog-wild with angel's grace.

I think Chant-protected IGG does much the same.

I've found that the LEDless ANT decks can find it more useful, as they lack tutoring abilities, and often must draw very hard off their AdN to get the win.



peace,
4eak

[GoldenCid]

Nice against decks with burn (not that you really need it that much). Swap out a Chant (normally not so important against Zoo) for a Grace, and you can go hog-wild with angel's grace.

I think Chant-protected IGG does much the same.

I've found that the LEDless ANT decks can find it more useful, as they lack tutoring abilities, and often must draw very hard off their AdN to get the win.



peace,
4eak


Ilike that card. Could i go in MD??

Another "rare" card in side i've seen is Sadistic Sacrament. Is it useful?? Has anybody tested it??

[Adan]

Ilike that card. Could i go in MD??

Another "rare" card in side i've seen is Sadistic Sacrament. Is it useful?? Has anybody tested it??

Why should you play it maindeck? At least for DDANt which already has 3 lines of play to win a game (IGG, AdN, DDay) I don't see any sense to play it; the main concern of ANT is still Counterbalance, therefore the slot should be used to play something that handles CBalance (Wipe Away/K.Grip).

Sadistic Sacrament is a good idea against the mirror but sucks against the rest of the format. It's also not good enough against any Stormdeck that plays Burning Wish.

[GoldenCid]

Sadistic Sacrament is a good idea against the mirror but sucks against the rest of the format. It's also not good enough against any Stormdeck that plays Burning Wish.


But you can exile BW with SS. The problem with this card is that it's requires a small combo to be kicked.

[Piceli89]

But you can exile BW with SS. The problem with this card is that it's requires a small combo to be kicked.

It doesn't really require to be kicked, since most o ANT lists are playing 1 Tendrils. Then there are the ones with Burning Wish, some of which play 2 BW (and therefore, SS is still an autolose even for them), and other 3-4 (like NLS), nullifying Sadistic Sacrament.

However, that's kind of a scary card, although being stupid. I see in my meta more and more storm players packing it SB to have an autowin against the mirror (which can be more frequent than what you expect). Similarly, losing to noobs playing Extract is not really my biggest ambition. That's why I'm thinking that regular ANT really needs a way to circumvent at least Extract, which is to play Burning Wish or a second Tendrils. But the second option is really shitty, since you're putting another cc4 card that's useless in opening hand cutting another potential good card. Plus, every potential blue deck, be it Countertop (believe me, I saw players packing Extract) or Mermaids, could use that shit, so you're not really seeing it coming.
It's kinda sad to see that you're dominating the match and a junk rare bends your ass; furthermore, with the rising of Combo I'm expecting lots of people to use it as their sb tech, especially at the GP:Madrid.

EDIT: well, in DDANT you can trick them by using the Mystical+Top sinergy to take Tendrils, but that puts you down with your game, makes you lose resources, and it's eassly detectable by your opponent who'll FoW the Mystical.

[Antonius]

i'm curious, ANT players, what is harder for you to play through/get rid of? Chalices or 3spheres?

The only pro I see behind chalice is that its easier to play T1. Sphere, backed by ports/wastes/quarters seems like an absolute back-breaker for your deck. Anyways, you'd know better than I do, i've never played combo in my life.

[Adan]

i'm curious, ANT players, what is harder for you to play through/get rid of? Chalices or 3spheres?

The only pro I see behind chalice is that its easier to play T1. Sphere, backed by ports/wastes/quarters seems like an absolute back-breaker for your deck. Anyways, you'd know better than I do, i've never played combo in my life.

3sphere is harder for the reasons you have stated yourself. Additonally, you HAVE to get rid of it first before you can combo off. This is not necessary when Chalice is in the table. I've often found myself playing through Chalice1 with LED LED IT. Chalice 0 is actually the least harmful since you can still Brainstorm-Ponder-Fetch-SDT-Mystical-bla-everything. 2 is strange, but you still have Rituals.

I am only afraid of Chalice if there are 2: one set at 1 and the other set at 2. It's nearly impossible to win against that preboard (except if you can find the K.Grip/Bounce somehow).
Long story short, Chalice is only scary in mutiples, whereas a single 3sphere can be devastating.

[emidln]

3sphere is harder for the reasons you have stated yourself. Additonally, you HAVE to get rid of it first before you can combo off. This is not necessary when Chalice is in the table. I've often found myself playing through Chalice1 with LED LED IT. Chalice 0 is actually the least harmful since you can still Brainstorm-Ponder-Fetch-SDT-Mystical-bla-everything. 2 is strange, but you still have Rituals.

I am only afraid of Chalice if there are 2: one set at 1 and the other set at 2. It's nearly impossible to win against that preboard (except if you can find the K.Grip/Bounce somehow).
Long story short, Chalice is only scary in mutiples, whereas a single 3sphere can be devastating.

I've won a large number of games against Stax and Dragon Stompy by going off through Trinisphere. Obviously it all ends if they Geddon/Smokestack, but if they're not doing that, you can cast LEDs, Petals, and Moxen until you have a hand of Dark Rits, Cabal Rits, and IT/Tendrils/IGG. It's important to note that Dark Rit is mana neutral under 3pshere and Cabal Rit nets BB. Stax will usually deal themselves enough damage that you can win via a mini Tendrils in this way. Granted, you're probably losing to Geddon or Smokestack well before this, but if they aren't drawing/playing them properly, you still have a chance if you keep your head.

[Antonius]

what about spheres of resistance, glowriders or Thorns? Can those be as nut crushing as 3sphere, when paired with LD, or are they only a real headache in multiples, like chalice?

[rsaunder]

same deal. Instead of making your accell cost 3 it only costs one more. D.rit nets B, petal is even, LED is +2, C. rit is +2 as well. So they're way less effective than a 3-sphere. Coupled with about a turn 4 clock, it all gets tough sometimes though.

[P.S.]

Playing Doomsday is optional. I believe it adds power and consistency to the deck, but it has a very steep learning curve and until you know how to play it very well, it's often more of a hindrance than help. That said, play Sensei's Divining Top in addition to Ponder. If I didn't play Doomsday, my list would almost certainly be this:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Orim's Chant
2 Silence
1 Krosan Grip
4 Mystical Tutor
3 Infernal Tutor
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony

SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Wipe Away
SB: 2 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 Hurkyll's Recall
SB: 1 Angel's Grace
SB: 4 Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 Tropical Island
SB: 1 Plains

Would your Sideboard for this Doomsday-less version feature Carpet of Flowers now, by chance?

[emidln]

No. Carpet is less useful in a general metagame that doesn't include a ton of Tempo Thresh if you don't have Doomsday. Doomsday lets you extend the game and make good use of the mana Carpet grants you later in the game against Counterbalance decks.

[IamPhil]

I've been testing Carpet of Flowers a bit here and there. One of our local players played Thresh last night in testing and would crack fetches to keep only enough lands as he absolutely needed. A single Mongoose will still win the game, and the deck packs enough countermagic to keep you off your key spells.

Knowing what I was playing in game one, he mulliganed to six and kept the following hand:
Brainstorm
Brainstorm
Daze
Daze
Force of Will
Force of Will

I had a nuts draw, but not enough Pacts to protect it. He proceeded to rip four lands in a row, then a goose, and win before I could combo off a second time.

[emidln]

I've been testing Carpet of Flowers a bit here and there. One of our local players played Thresh last night in testing and would crack fetches to keep only enough lands as he absolutely needed. A single Mongoose will still win the game, and the deck packs enough countermagic to keep you off your key spells.

Knowing what I was playing in game one, he mulliganed to six and kept the following hand:
Brainstorm
Brainstorm
Daze
Daze
Force of Will
Force of Will

I had a nuts draw, but not enough Pacts to protect it. He proceeded to rip four lands in a row, then a goose, and win before I could combo off a second time.

Why would you run Pact of Negation in a list with Carpet of Flowers?

[IamPhil]

Why would you run Pact of Negation in a list with Carpet of Flowers?

Why not? Carpet of Flowers functions as another Ritual. Against Blue I still need an answer for FoW, Daze, and Stifle. Pact serves this purpose.

[Elvtyrr]

I'm putting together this deck for my testing gauntlet and would like to know what the most 'cookie-cutter' list would be for my team to test against. Should I build the LED version, as it seems better, or are more people playing LED less? Also any advice on actually piloting the deck would be greatly appreciated as I generally make a lot of play mistakes when playing combo decks with so much tutoring and decision making. That being the main reason that I suck in vintage. Thanks for your help.

[GoldenCid]

After testing the doomsday, ADN, IGG list i want some help with sideboarding. This is the mine:

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [WL] Doomsday
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [A] Tropical Island
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [SC] Xantid Swarm (is it comprobed it's efectiveness over confidant?)
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [M10] Deathmark
SB: 1 [TSP] Angel's Grace

Thx you all!!

[Pulp_Fiction]

carpet of flowers is for bitches!!!! this card blows ass, its ok sometimes butm , jesus, i am so fucking drunk, o lny idiots hwpw cant play DD right play this shit, it sucks and Swarm is infinitely better!

[Nidd]

Real men play drunk but don't post drunk.


Erm, ok, on a more serious note, I've been looking for a singleton MD solution to random things G 1 (someone playing GW haterator-whatever with MD Canonists/Teegs, Solitary Confinement, you name it).
As I play my Tropical Island in my SB, would you rather play it MD and pack a 1 of Grip, or would you recommend a 1 of Wipe Away?

[Adan]

Real men play drunk but don't post drunk.


Erm, ok, on a more serious note, I've been looking for a singleton MD solution to random things G 1 (someone playing GW haterator-whatever with MD Canonists/Teegs, Solitary Confinement, you name it).
As I play my Tropical Island in my SB, would you rather play it MD and pack a 1 of Grip, or would you recommend a 1 of Wipe Away?

Wipe Away. If you have to deal with Teeg/Canonist, Wipe Away seems to be necessary. But in my opinion, it depends on whether you play Duress or not. If you don't, Wipe Away seems to be pretty inefficient as it just procrastinates the problem for 1 turn, it's more like "Bounce and go off" which is not always possible, especially when you have to play against Counterbalance which always shuts of something necessary, especially utility.

[dearleader]

I've been testing Carpet of Flowers a bit here and there. One of our local players played Thresh last night in testing and would crack fetches to keep only enough lands as he absolutely needed. A single Mongoose will still win the game, and the deck packs enough countermagic to keep you off your key spells.

Knowing what I was playing in game one, he mulliganed to six and kept the following hand:
Brainstorm
Brainstorm
Daze
Daze
Force of Will
Force of Will

I had a nuts draw, but not enough Pacts to protect it. He proceeded to rip four lands in a row, then a goose, and win before I could combo off a second time.

I don't know what your hand is, but that hand makes you lose if he lets your pact resolve and then counters your original spell with his second FoW. That's the bad part about running Pacts; you autolose if they have more countermagic than you do.

[alderon666]

Wipe Away. If you have to deal with Teeg/Canonist, Wipe Away seems to be necessary. But in my opinion, it depends on whether you play Duress or not. If you don't, Wipe Away seems to be pretty inefficient as it just procrastinates the problem for 1 turn, it's more like "Bounce and go off" which is not always possible, especially when you have to play against Counterbalance which always shuts of something necessary, especially utility.

Rushing River is probably better, as Split Second looks irrelevant and the ability to bounce 2 hate pieces looks vital.

[Nidd]

I'm talking G 1, some piece of anti hate for random shizzle I encounter.

Rushing River looks fine, but it's not as final as I would like my solution to be. I mean, sure, Wipe Away isn't a solution, but at least it doesn't get hit by FoW.

To me, it boils down to Wipe Away VS Krosan Grip. I would like to play 1 of them MB, with the other one as a 1-of in my SB and a total of 2 Grips spread over MB and SB (read: I would like to play a total of 2 Grips and 1 Wipe in my 75 but only 1 of them MB).

Or am I horribly overrating Split Second?

[kicks_422]

That's the same dilemma I encountered for my last protection slot. It was either Krosan Grip or Wipe Away.

I chose to run Wipe Away instead, with the Grips in the SB. Counterbalance, and to a lesser extent Chalice, are your main culprits that you'd use it on for Game 1, both of which are handled permanently by Grip. However, with all the randomness I'm facing, Wipe Away at least gives me an out.

At least when an opponent drops a Turn 2 True Believer on me, I won't scoop.

[videogamer99]

I am trying to help my GF build a competetive deck and she chose combo. I am trying to build this as cheaply as possible. Orim's Chant = Silence, Marsh Flats = Other Fetches. How do you like this build?

Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Silence
3 Cabal Ritual
3 Infernal Tutor
3 Ponder
2 Ad Nauseam
1 Echoing Truth
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony

Artifact
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Lands
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
2 Marsh Flats
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Tundra

Sideboard
4 Dark Confidant
4 Dispel
2 Angel's Grace
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Tendrils of Agony

Only thing that I dont understand is why all of the one-ofs in the board. When do you bring them in?

[Pulp_Fiction]

Real men play drunk but don't post drunk.


Erm, ok, on a more serious note, I've been looking for a singleton MD solution to random things G 1 (someone playing GW haterator-whatever with MD Canonists/Teegs, Solitary Confinement, you name it).
As I play my Tropical Island in my SB, would you rather play it MD and pack a 1 of Grip, or would you recommend a 1 of Wipe Away?

My spelling was damn good son for that particular level of fucked up that I attained after 3-4 pitchers at a bar with some buddies and some screwdrivers afterwards. And I totally disagree, first and foremost there is no real definition for what a "real man" will do, its just sociological bullshit. However, I still totally disagree with your post, drunk men lose tournaments, I don't :) The only person who wins at drunk Magic is one who has not paid money to get into a tournament but rather is sitting around with equally intoxicated individuals and rocks the EDH, case in point, thor and Loxodon Baileyarch!

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

My spelling was damn good son for that particular level of fucked up that I attained after 3-4 pitchers at a bar with some buddies and some screwdrivers afterwards. And I totally disagree, first and foremost there is no real definition for what a "real man" will do, its just sociological bullshit. However, I still totally disagree with your post, drunk men lose tournaments, I don't :) The only person who wins at drunk Magic is one who has not paid money to get into a tournament but rather is sitting around with equally intoxicated individuals and rocks the EDH, case in point, thor and Loxodon Baileyarch!

Amen. I've played EDH drunk one time, piloting Mormir Vig, and i got monkey stomped. It got to the point where i couldn't tap my mana right. /wrist

Just another Saturday night.

[Nidd]

My spelling was damn good son for that particular level of fucked up that I attained after 3-4 pitchers at a bar with some buddies and some screwdrivers afterwards. And I totally disagree, first and foremost there is no real definition for what a "real man" will do, its just sociological bullshit. However, I still totally disagree with your post, drunk men lose tournaments, I don't :) The only person who wins at drunk Magic is one who has not paid money to get into a tournament but rather is sitting around with equally intoxicated individuals and rocks the EDH, case in point, thor and Loxodon Baileyarch!
Don't be serious when I'm trying to be funny :(


So the general consens is thzat Wipe Away > K. Grip when it comes to a 1-of MD solution?

[GoldenCid]

That's the same dilemma I encountered for my last protection slot. It was either Krosan Grip or Wipe Away.


but what is your portection slot?? I mean instead of what you're formely playing?

[kicks_422]

I have 4 Duress and 4 Orim's Chant. I wanted a 9th protection spell to Mystical for, and it was either Wipe Away or Krosan Grip.

[GoldenCid]

I have 4 Duress and 4 Orim's Chant. I wanted a 9th protection spell to Mystical for, and it was either Wipe Away or Krosan Grip.

Yeah but instead of what?? I've 4 duress and 4 Chants too.

[kicks_422]

Not everybody plays the same exact list, you know. I don't play it instead of anything because ever since I've been playing the deck, I've always had that one slot for bounce/Grip.

[Nidd]

Mind sharing your list with us? I'm interested, too. I would like to see how many Lands you play, how mandy Ponders, how many Moxen and Cabal Rituals etc. All these "half-flexible" slots.

[kicks_422]

Sure. This was where I was at with ANT before I switched to DDANT. I added the new fetches though, and that's the part of the deck that I haven't really tested yet hence 1 of each non-Delta fetch.

// Lands
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
1 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [R] Tundra
1 [R] Tropical Island
1 [R] Bayou
1 [R] Scrubland
1 [UNH] Island
1 [R] Underground Sea

// Spells
1 [TSP] Wipe Away
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [M10] Ponder
1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
2 [TO] Cabal Ritua
2 [MR] Chrome Moxl
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [US] Duress
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
2 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains


// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 3 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 2 [TSP] Angel's Grace

[snaga]

long time lurker, thought I’d contribute some and hopefully generate some discussion.

I’ve played some form of ANT in the last few legacy tournament in the area winning one and managing a marvellous 1-3 drop in the other. took the following out to battle most recently and came in 3rd.

Fire Ant
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Doomsday
1 Meditate
4 Lions Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
2 Chrome Mox
4 Duress
3 Orim's Chant
4 Sensei's Diving Top
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Brainstorm
3 Burning Wish
2 Infernal Tutor
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Island

Sideboard
1 Tropical Island
1 Doomsday
1 Ill-gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Meltdown
1 Reverent Silence
1 Empty the Warrens
3 Krosan Grip
3 Xanthid Swarm
1 Chain of Vapour
1 Echoing Truth

Apologies if any of this doesn’t make sense, I took no notes and is all from memory of Tuesday:

Round 1 - Nick with Dredge
Game one I paris down to 5 into a hand that has some rituals and a few lands and a top. Nick starts by LED crack -> discard a bridge, 2 Stinkweed Imp, Deep Analysis and a land. Dredges back both Stinkweed Imps off Deep Analysis and hits a Narcomoeba and no more dredges. nick spends 2 turns hitting for 1 with his Narcomoeba and drawing cards until I finally find a Mystical Tutor to tutor up Doomsday and win from there.
Game two nick mulls to 4 and keeps a pretty weak hand, mentioning he still hasn't found his bazaar and I Doomsday go him on turn 2.

1-0

Round 2 - Rizum with 43 Land
Rizum wins the roll and decides to play, I thank him for the card advantage. He leads with Taiga Manabond Mox Diamond pitching a land and end of turn discarding a Life from the Loam and putting 2 Mishara's Factory and another land into play. I keep a landless hand and begin with a Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal and top, with the intention to end of turn mystical for Ad Nauseam. Rizum dredges Life from the Loam plays a few land attacks me for 2 and dies.
Game 2 Rizum leads with Taiga Gamble and then randomly discards Chalice of the Void =) ZING! I have a nice start involving top and a few snaps to shuffle and build up some cards. Rizum then plays Mox Diamond land Intuition for 3 Chalice of the Void and plays a chalice a 0. I respond and Brainstorm away a Lotus Petal and Burning Wish drawing 2 Cabal Rituals and a Dark Ritual. Upkeep mystical for Ad Nauseam and win.

2-0

Round 3 - Luke with Homebrew Bant (typical counter top goyf with Counterpspell Clique and Trinket Mage)
I start game 1 with land and mystical for an Orims Chant. Luke plays land top of his own. Turn 2 I drop a Tundra to match my Underground Sea and petal, and during his upkeep Chant him. It resolves and I then Ritual Cabal Ritual sac petal and Ad Nauseam. Winning next turn was elementary from there.
Game 2 Luke leads with a basic Forest and top and passes. I resolve an early Xanthid Swarm off a snapped Tropical Island and play a top off Lotus Petal. Luke casts an explosives at 1. I cast a 2nd top, LED and drop a snap building my mana base up. Luke plays a Tundra to match his Forest and Plains before passing back. At the end of his turn I draw a Duress and shuffle away the 2nd top. I play a land and enter attack phase with Xanthid swarm. Luke blows the explosives at 1 and puts his top on top and I do the same. I cast Duress and see Trinket Mage Vendillion Clique Vendillion Clique and Spell Snare taking the snare. I double check the lands Luke has in play and see he has no 2nd blue and mystical for Ad Nauseam. Upkeep I top to put Ad Nauseam 2nd down draw a land and intend to activate top and sac led with no cards in hand, instead I stop myself mid way through drawing from top and pick up led and sac it. Luke calls the judge who says I activated top and now have the Ad Nauseam in hand. I pass the turn. I think I’m in okay shape as long as I draw any land or any mana source before Luke draws a blue source. Unfortunately Luke slams a tropical and cliques me during my draw phase putting Ad Nauseam on the bottom. I still can make a game of this and top furiously looking for a way out. Luke plays a Trinket Mage getting chalice at 1 and a goyf and things are looking bad. Luke starts chopping my life total and on the last possible turn I block goyf with Xanthid Swarm and go down to 4. I find a Doomsday but am unable to make a pile within time that wins with my limited resources.

(here I have in play, top ,2 tundra, 1 sea 1 volcanic and a trop aswell as a petal, cabal ritual in hand to cast doomsday and not much else. is there a Doomsday pile I can make that can fight through a chalice at 1?)

Game 3 is a long drawn out affair with Luke having little action other than top and again chalice at 1. I try an early Xanthid swarm which is dealt with. We play back and forth for about 3 turns, both not doing much at all and time is called. Luke’s plays alert me to him being happy with a draw however I’m pretty sure I can still get there. I try a main phase Burning Wish which gets Counterspelled and follow up my next turn with a Spell Snared Infernal Tutor. Turn 5 I try an Ill-gotten Gains. I make some mana and cast Brainstorm which Luke informs me I cannot. I tell him I can play it and it is countered by chalice increasing the storm count for the turn. I then cast another Brainstorm and a Duress and come up short on enough storm to Infernal Tutor for Tendrils. I instead get Ill-gotten Gains and hope to sack out the top of my library getting back Lotus Petal Lotus Petal Cabal Ritual. my last chance. I top and find a nice shiny Tendrils of Agony facing me back. Activate top and blast him for enough. Victory.

3-0

Round 4 - Chris with Merfolk
Chris mulls down to 5 in game 1. He leads with Island vial. I lead with Duress and see 2 Silvergill Adept and a Standstill. He plays Mutavault and casts an adept. I threaten to explode his mind when I EOT mystical for Doomsday. He starts laughing and says wow you did explode my brain. Doomsday meets no resistance and I win from there.
Game 2 I keep a ritual heavy hand and get blown out by Wasteland Stifle, Stifle. pretty sure it was a bad keep as I thought snap and top would get me there.
Game 3 I Paris down to 5 with snap, Tundra, mystical, Brainstorm, Duress. I play a snap and pass. Brainstorm EOT reveals 2 more Mysticals and a volcanic. I put back the mysticals and pass. Chis leads with vial and pass. I mystical during my upkeep for a ritual figuring I probably have to rip pretty hard from here to pull out a win. Chris returns fire with a Curse Catcher and Lord of Atlantis threatening a clock very soon. I draw ANOTHER mystical for my turn and pass. Chris brings down a second Lord and a Standstill and starts chopping my life total. I figure my only out from here is to get a free ancestral so I cast something to bait him into snap countering. Unfortunately he lets the standstill trigger resolve :( and I get further behind. The turn before his team of lords come crashing into me I confidently tap one of my 2 Tundra and put a mystical on the stack (holding mystical ritual and duress) and Chris becomes very confused. He sits there and tells the crowd "I REALLY don't want to lose from this position" so to compound his confusion I put a 2nd mystical on the stack and look him direct in the eye. Chris tells me "the first mystical resolves..." I tell him "there is a spell above the first mystical and therefore it can't resolve" before laughing and picking up all my cards in concession. Chris says while shaking my hand " I guess you win the moral victory"

3-1

Round 5 sees me paired to the only 4-0 and team mate Shawn Rayson. We check the standings and there's 6 people in contention for the top 4 slots and if he scoops to me we should be first and second based on breakers.

4-1

Top 4
1st Me FireAnt
2nd Shawn UG Countertop goyf
3rd Chris Merfolk
4th Rizzum 43 Land

Top 4 vs Rizzum 43 lands
Game 1 I win the roll and Paris to 6 and keep a hand that wins right away with any ritual (mystical, snap, snap, cabal ritual, chrome mox, top) I snap up a sea and play top. Rizzum leads with Manabond, Mox Diamond, and gets 2 Mishara's Factory from the Manabond. He passes and I mystical for Ad Nauseam and pass back. Rizum dredges Life from the Loam and hits Wasteland and Rishidan Port, attacks for 3 getting back Port and Waste and I don’t hit more artifact mana or rituals in time to get anything together and die to his 2 factories.
Game 2 Rizum shows me a no land hand (never saw this from 43 land!) and a Paris to 5. He starts off with Treetop Village go. I play a snap and a top and pass back. Rizum drops a second land and passes back. I get Ad Nauseam together and start flipping. I get some rough flips and end up on 4 life. I can stop here but don’t have the mana to string things together, having flipped brainstorms, ill gotten gains, 2 Krosan grips and 3 tops, I figure I’m close if I can get a Lotus Petal or 2 or a Chrome Mox and a ritual and keep going, hitting Duress and then Krosan Grip. Dead.

4-2

I'm pretty sure I played bad both these games, and certainly could have done a lot differently. Lesson learnt. Don’t get cocky.

happy to hear feedback

[Nidd]

As for the pile:

Meditate, Dark Ritual, Hurkyl's Recall, Dark Ritual, ToA? If he's on 18, it is enough.

[emidln]

Hi, glad to see people other than yawg, cintanul, and myself still piloting
NLS. In response to your question for the Round 3, G2 Doomsday win:

R3,G2 DD pile:

With SDT, Tundra, Tundra, Sea, Volc, Trop, Petal, CRit you can win if CRit is
hellbent. The pile is like this:

Meditate
LED
LED
Infernal Tutor
Burning Wish

It'll cost you 3UB. If you have an Infernal Tutor in the sideboard, you can
also do this at a cost of 3UR:

Meditate
LED
LED
Burning Wish
Tendrils of Agony

I don't think you can use IGG in your situation, but if you could, this pass
the turn pile incidentally works as a win this turn pile too (more useful
against something a little more aggroish). It still costs 3UR:

Meditate
LED
LED
Burning Wish
Burning Wish


(SDT->Med, Med into SDT, LED, LED, BW. LED. LED. BW -> IGG. IGG into LED, LED,
SDT. LED. LED. SDT. SDT->BW breaking LEDs for RB. BW->Tendrils.)

There are a couple pass the turn DD piles as well, but I don't think you could
have pulled them off given the gamestate. This one doesn't use IGG, so it'd
probably be the safest for you if you were to try (I think the opp had too much
damage on board anyway). This pile just needs SDT in play and either LED#2 in
hand or 3 mana from lands (which you obviously had).

LED
Meditate
LED
LED
Burning Wish

The basic idea here is that to ignore Chalice @ 1 w/Doomsday you need either a
way like Wish->Draw4, Meditate, IT->Med, or SDT already in play. You had the
SDT, so if you want to SDT into Med + do something that doesn't cost 1, you're
looking at the need for 2U + 2. Infernal Tutor and Burning Wish are both great
because they let you stack LEDs with them. This will let you chain Tutors and
Wishes into a Tendrils.

Good luck in the future!

[GoldenCid]

Sure. This was where I was at with ANT before I switched to DDANT. I added the new fetches though, and that's the part of the deck that I haven't really tested yet hence 1 of each non-Delta fetch.



But you prefer DDANT o ANT?? In the DDANT is harder to add the protection slot!

[emidln]

I play 7 protection and 4 wish that can answer artifacts, enchantments, green/white creatures, 2/2 or smaller creatuers, "just" find a storm win condition for double Tendrils, or even find, *gasp* an 8th protection spell.

[bruno_tiete]

I guess some of those piles won't work through Chalice at 1, emidln. You can't get Top back in play.

[GoldenCid]

@All: Play with the deck i feel really uncomfortable runnig the DD pack. Maybe i'm noob or simply silly. But my question is: Is it really necessary??
Is this deck still competitive just with IGG and ADN??

[emidln]

I guess some of those piles won't work through Chalice at 1, emidln.

Wrong.


You can't get Top back in play.

Correct.

I'll give you guys some time to figure it out. If you can't, I'll post out how those piles work in a day or so.

[Nidd]

Pile 1, you Tutor for Wish and then Wish for ToA.

Pile 2, you Wish for Tutor and Tutor for ToA.

Pile 3, you Wish for Tutor, Tutor for Wish and Wish for ToA.



Am I missing something?

[emidln]

Nidd, the third pile is an igg pile and explained. the important part, playing through chalice @ 1 without igg, is covered by the first two that you have right.

[snaga]

at the time i thought there was a DD pile that let me win, and like many others here obviously, i hadn't thought of IT for the final card to get around not being able to replay top. I thought of lots of crazy things involving burning wish for meltdown or IGG for meditate (which lol doesn't work either) and ended up being asked to resolve the spell and continue playing and ended up mana short from putting IGG on the stack and sacing LED's.

thanks for the input Emidln, certainly options i'll keep in mind playing in the future. GL at Madrid! would have loved to be there myself.

[Tychoides]

@All: Play with the deck i feel really uncomfortable runnig the DD pack. Maybe i'm noob or simply silly. But my question is: Is it really necessary??
Is this deck still competitive just with IGG and ADN??

I came in here to ask about this myself, as it obviously takes a lot of practice and skill to get those DD piles down.

Looking at the results from GP Madrid so far, it looks like most people aren't playing DD. In Day 1, there were 2 undefeated ANT decks and neither had it. Lot of coverage of Saito playing ANT in feature matches, and I don't remember them mentioning him playing it either.

[Piceli89]

..That's why he lost against a Gaddock Teeg (and Canonist, later) against Bant Survival.
However, I read somewhere that Citanul was doing good with his red DDANT. Emidln, do you know if he made through day2?

[Nidd]

Nidd, the third pile is an igg pile and explained. the important part, playing through chalice @ 1 without igg, is covered by the first two that you have right.
This simple "l2r" stresses the fact that I shouldn't think about DD-Piles during the night...

Reading your explanation, my mind just got blown. I love this deck.

Good luck to all of you at the GP!

[Deviruchi]

However, I read somewhere that Citanul was doing good with his red DDANT. Emidln, do you know if he made through day2?

day1: 7-2
day2: 0-3 drop :(

[dahcmai]

I tried out a couple of Sideboard options yesterday and I have to admit I'm quite impressed with Disfigure. I like it much better than my old choices of Sudden Death and Deathmark. It's sooo nice to have an EOT answer to Teeg and such with all these new GW things running around.

Telemin Performance was the other new choice. How amusing that it is to play in a mirror or on some other creatureless decks. Quite fun and so easy to cast. Definitely worth it's one spot.

Give them a shot, you'll like the cards.




Lastly, what exactly are you boarding out for Carpet of Flowers and what is this new ruling on it? I must have missed this.

[Blitzbold]

At the beginning of each of your main phases, if you haven't added mana to your mana pool with Carpet of Flowers this turn, you may add up to X mana of any one color to your mana pool, where X is the number of Islands target opponent controls.


Carpet of Flowers (http://magiccards.info/us/en/240.html)

[xTrainx]

Saito's ADN list is up.

2 City of Traitors
3 Flooded Strand
1 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
16 lands

2 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
3 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mystical Tutor
2 Ponder
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Tendrils of Agony
2 Thoughtseize

Sideboard
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Dark Confidant
1 Echoing Truth
1 Extirpate
2 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Reverent Silence
1 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Thoughtseize
-----------

And, just a question - I don't play this deck a huge amount, but the times that I've tested with one ADN I have a bit of trouble tutoring it - as such I generally play 4.

However, I don't play Brainstorm, only Ponder. Should I switch two ADN for two Brainstorm?
Just FYI, my ADN is more of a budget deck - no LED, therefore no Infernal Tutor.

[P.S.]

I think I am going to go back to the Doomsday version. I also think I like the suggestion a few pages back to mainboard Duress over a larger Silence/Orim's Chant concoction.

Disfigure (listed above) also seems good to me. I'll definitely fit both that and Carpet of Flowers into my Sideboard.

[dahcmai]

As for tutoring AN, I play 4 Mysticals, has always seemed like enough for me especially after using a Ponder or Brainstorm. I play 1 Ad Nauseam in mine. I dislike the randomness of hitting the others after casting one.

I like Doomsday, but after playing with other decks here and there, I always forget the stacks lol.


Lastly, I know the oracle wording on Carpet of Flowers, but what's the difference now with it? It seemed like it gained something from the way people were talking about it and it doesn't seem any different from the Saga Days to me.

[alderon666]

Deathmark kills Goyf.

[stacker]

Lastly, I know the oracle wording on Carpet of Flowers, but what's the difference now with it? It seemed like it gained something from the way people were talking about it and it doesn't seem any different from the Saga Days to me.

you can get mana the turn you play it

you can get mana post-xantid dmg

these 2 are huge

[Iranon]

Lastly, I know the oracle wording on Carpet of Flowers, but what's the difference now with it? It seemed like it gained something from the way people were talking about it and it doesn't seem any different from the Saga Days to me.

You can cast it in your first main phase, declare an attack, then use its ability in the turn you cast it.

[GoldenCid]

Saito's ADN list is up.



Yup! And no DD. Do Anh didn't run DD too. Both made a great job at GP. So...
I think that DD version has a more dangeorus ADN reslving. It provides a 2 3cmc cards (DD and meditate) instead of the more safe ponder saito's version runs.

Also both player player Dark confidant in SB instead of xantid swarm. Why??

[myw002]

Have any of you played ANT for vintage like competitively? I was just wondering, because I may want to play this for legacy too. Looks great having things that are restricted in vintage, unrestricted in legacy haha. If there's one thing I noticed, it's that you PoN are not used as prevalently as in vintage. And tops are run as good substitutes for tutors that are banned in legacy that aren't in vintage.

How do those of you play this archetype feel about this deck in legacy? I personally love it in vintage.

[lordofthepit]

What kind of 75-card list would you guys recommend to someone who hasn't played much Ad Nauseam combo? Would TES be a good build?

Obviously, I would imagine this isn't a great deck to use if you're not familiar with it, but you have to start somewhere, right?

[MattH]

I've thrown eimdln's non-Doomsday list together and it has been running smoothly for me. I'd start there.

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Orim's Chant
2 Silence
1 Krosan Grip
4 Mystical Tutor
3 Infernal Tutor
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony

SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Wipe Away
SB: 2 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 Hurkyll's Recall
SB: 1 Angel's Grace
SB: 4 Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 Tropical Island
SB: 1 Plains

[myw002]

Okay, I think 4 Tops is way too much. You really probably only need 2. You already have a huge search engine going (Ponders/Brainstorms) and then you have 4 Mystical Tutors to find what you need. Top is great, but not necessary as a 4 of. I would also consider running duress effects as this plays to ANTs advantage and allows you to safely "go off" and nuke opponents hands. Not only that, but you can see what they have. These effects go with the theme of an aggressive deck, which ANT is.

[lordofthepit]

I've thrown eimdln's non-Doomsday list together and it has been running smoothly for me. I'd start there.

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Orim's Chant
2 Silence
1 Krosan Grip
4 Mystical Tutor
3 Infernal Tutor
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony

SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Wipe Away
SB: 2 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 Hurkyll's Recall
SB: 1 Angel's Grace
SB: 4 Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 Tropical Island
SB: 1 Plains

I'll start with that. A couple questions about card choices.

Why fetches + duals over the rainbow land package? I would imagine the drawback of the rainbows isn't that severe for ANT. Is it to make use of the shuffling effect of the fetches in conjunction with Top?

On that note, I've generally heard that Top is recommended mainly if you run Doomsday? What purpose does it serve in this deck? I know for an inexperienced player like me, having the ability to keep a "draw" on the table would be useful when you need to crack the LED to be able to generate enough mana to cast Ad Nauseam. Is this its main purpose?

Thanks!