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Brot_Ohne_Kruste
09-21-2008, 05:45 PM
„TMT – Graboids!“
by Brot_Ohne_Kruste

Introduction:
Many of you will know the decks Aggro Loam and Loam Pox, but have you ever asked yourself what kind of deck you will get, if you would combine those two? After the confimation of „Worm Harvest“ I wanted to know answer, so I tooled a little bit with the deck and after a few matches on MWS the deck really impressed me. The hard controlplan of this deck combined with the flexibility of the Wishes fitted to my playstyle and I built it to play tournaments with it. Now, here is the decklist I'm currently playing:



// Lands
3 Badlands
3 Barren Moor
2 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
1 Forgotten Cave
3 Swamp
1 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Polluted Delta
1 Mountain

// Spells
4 Burning Wish
2 Crime/Punishment
2 Devastating Dreams
3 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
1 Worm Harvest
2 Recoup
2 Seismic Assault
2 Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Worm Harvest
SB: 1 Devastating Dreams
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Hull Breach
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Reverent Silence
SB: 1 Regrowth
SB: 1 Raven's Crime


As you can see I'm playing 10 LD-spells, 4 LD-lands and a couple of massremoval cards. Now we're coming to the...


Cardchoices:
MB:
Lands:
Badlands: Should be clear.
Bayou: Should be clear.
Bloodstained Mire: Should be clear.
Wooded Foothills: Should be clear.
Polluted Delta: Should be clear.
Forest: Against Wastelands.
Swamp: Against Wastelands.
Mountain: Against Wastelands.
Barren Moor: Carddraw.
Forgotten Cave: Carddraw.
Tranquil Thicket: Carddraw.
Wasteland: Recurringable LD.

Spells:
Burning Wish: Gives you flexibility.
Crime/Punishment: Massremoval as sorcery. Sometimes, if a Mox is online, you can steel opponents creatures or enchantments.
Devastating Dreams: LD + creature-massremoval.
Life from the Loam: Engine with cycling-lands.
Mox Diamond: Gives the deck speed.
Pernicious Deed: Buys time.
Sinkhole: LD to shut down the opponent.
Smallpox: LD, removal and discard in one.
Worm Harvest: Wincondition.
Recoup: Brings back a sorcery, which can be very cool (e.g. countered Wishes or Punishments).
Seismic Assault: Secondary wincondition.


SB:
Crime/Punishment: Wishable massremoval.
Devastating Dreams: Wishable LD.
Life from the Loam: Wishable Engine:
Hull Breach: Wishable enchantment- and artifactremoval.
Krosan Grip: Against Leylines and Counterbalances.
Shattering Spree: Wishable mass-artifactremoval.
Raven's Crime: Recurringable, wishable discard.
Reverent Silence: Maybe against Enchantress and to dodge Counterbalance.
Chalice of the Void: Most opponents don't like this card and sideboarding it is awesome against many decks.


Alternate Cardchoices (cards which I tested before):
MB:
Hymn to Tourach: Wasn't as strong as the LD was.
Cabal Pit: Wasteland does a better job on Factories, the rest could be handled with the massremoval most times.
Roar of the Wurm: A good card, but the token died to Explosives 0 too often.
Chalice of the Void: I played them for a long time after I realized that this card just does nearly nothing.
Syphon Life: An another wincondition, not that great.
Nether Spirit: This card is quite okay, but there are better cards.
Gigapede: Recurringable 6/1 shroud creature is pretty nasty for the most decks. The problem is the lack of trample.

SB:
Leyline of the Void: I think Coffin Purges are better in this deck.
Coffin Purge: I don't really know, I think its pretty good against spells, that target a card in grave (e.g. Life from the Loam, Dread Return, Academy Ruins -> EE). Could be good.
Haunting Echoes: LD + massremoval + Echoes = almost no more lands and other stuff, but it isn't really necessary.
Void: Massremoval with discard. However it costs too much.
Perish: Against Tarmogoyf and Mongoose.


How the deck plays:
Graboids! is a deck which destroys all lands in the first few turns to slow down the opponent and get your Lftl-engine going. The deck tries to get a good boardposition by destroying nearly all permanents the opponent has which almost all the times happens. Normally the opponent doesn't get to 1-2 lands in the early and mid game and we've got about 6-8 manasources at this point. If necessary spells (like Wishes, Dreams or Punishment) were countered, Recoup does its job and gives them flashback to destroy parts of their board. After all, it's just a Loam deck so it plays like a Loam deck (draw cards through cycling-lands etc.) that has got many control elements.


Tested Matchups:
Uwb Cunningstill:
Before I added Recoup to the board, the Matchup was like 40-60 in Cunningstills favor. After the addition the matchup is at about 70-30 in our favor. Recoup is so incredible in this matchup. The main problem without Recoup was that, if my spells were countered, I haven't got any access to them anymore and lost games because of it. Even Extirpates aren't a big problem because if the could cast it, we've got about 6+ manasources.
Pre: 70-30
Post: 55-45 (there is maybe Crypt in the SB)

4c Cunningstill:
It's even better than 3c because they are running such a small count of Basics.
Pre: 75-25
Post: 65-35

Ugb Thresh (with Wasteland, Extirpate and Stifle):
It's quite a good Matchup, even they are playing Extirpate.
Pre: 60-40
Post: 55-45

Ugw / Ugr Thresh:
Better than the Ugb Matchup.
Pre: 65-35
Post: 55-45 (Crypts)

Goblins:
With massremoval and LD this Matchup is quite good.
Pre: 75-25
Post: 65-35 (Crypts)

AggroLoam:
This Matchup is in our favor. Even if they have got Loam, the LD is quite hard for them.
Pre: 60-40
Post: 55-45

Death and Taxes:
Generally it's an aggro-deck that dies to LD.
Pre: 65-35
Post: 55-45 (Crypts + Stonecloaker)

TES:
Chalice is good in this Matchup, but LD is good too. If you could wish for Raven's Crime, it's winable.
Pre: 35-65

Survival:
Quite good because of LD.
Pre: 65-35
Post: 60-40

Ichorid:
It's pretty bad I think. Expect you could drop a Deed.
Pre: 35-65
Post: 30-70

Echantress:
Not really positve because of Karmic Justice and Replenish.
Pre: 35-65
Post: 35-65

Pikula:
Preboard is okay, but Withered Wretch and Extirpate Postboard isn't that cool.
Pre: 55-45
Post: 45-55

Eva Green:
It's a positive Matchup for us, even if the board Extirpates.
Pre: 60-40
Post: 55-45

Goyf Sligh
It's in their favor preboard because of the burn. After boarding, we've got Chalices.
Pre: 40-60
Post: 50-50

5c Zoo
It's a little bit in their favor preboard.
Pre: 40-60
Post: 50-50

Both, Zoo and Goyf Sligh are pretty untested.


Untested Matchups:
Dragon Stompy
Armageddon Stax
Fetchland Tendrils
other Landstill lists
Intuition Thresh
CB Thresh / Aggro-Control

I don't think all Matchups are correct, but the most are.


What does Graboids! better than other Loam-decks?:
I don't want to say that Graboids! is better than other Loam-decks, it's just different. Most Loam-decks need the Loam-engine to win games, this deck doesn't. I've won games against multiple Crypts + 2x per turn Stonecloaker or multiple Extirpates. I don't know how this deck does such things, but I was really surprised and impressed by these facts. One problem of that deck, which gladly doesn't occur so often, is that it can't find solutions so good like other Loam-decks can, but by adding Recoups the problem was weakened. Another problem is CB+Top, like for any other Loam-deck, but we've got a few solutions (Deed and Punishment für 2 [most decks doesn't play spells with cc4]).
In my eyes it is a little more controllish than Loam Pox is and it isn't such easy to shut-off from doing Loam-action or other things. But because of the fact that Graboids! is a control-deck, it isn't as fast as AggroLoam is.



At the end I want to thank my teammembers from Team Mind Twisted, my testing partners, the people who invented and tested AggroLoam and Loam Pox for the inspiration they gave me and of course Ron Underwood for producing the film tremors which let me to the deck's name ;).
I hope you liked the deck and enjoyed reading the primer. Please leave a feedback and / or improvisations that I could do.


Tournament results of big tournaments:
Dülmen (08-24-08 - without Recoups and I was also pretty unlucky): 3-2-1
Iserlohn (10-05-08 - I made a few mistakes, but its getting better): 4-2-0
Dülmen (10-12-08 - I made one mistake, which costed me the first match): 5-1-1 (8th out of 68)


Old decklists:
Here are some old decklists so that you can follow the evolution that deck took:

from 08-06-08 (it started with a Loam Pox list):

// Lands
4 [A] Bayou
3 [TE] Wasteland
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 [ON] Swamp (3)
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [4E] Mishra's Factory
2 [OD] Cabal Pit
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ON] Barren Moor

// Spells
2 [IA] Pox
3 [EVE] Worm Harvest
4 [A] Dark Ritual
3 [SH] Mox Diamond
2 [AP] Phyrexian Arena
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [TSP] Smallpox
4 [A] Sinkhole
3 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (4)
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [EVE] Raven's Crime

from 08-12-08:


// Lands
3 [A] Badlands
3 [ON] Barren Moor
2 [A] Bayou
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [A] Forest (1)
1 [ON] Forgotten Cave
3 [IN] Swamp (1)
1 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
3 [TE] Wasteland
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Spells
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
2 [TO] Devastating Dreams
3 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [A] Sinkhole
3 [TSP] Smallpox
1 [EVE] Worm Harvest
2 [OD] Roar of the Wurm
1 [EVE] Syphon Life
3 [OD] Recoup
2 [DIS] Crime/Punishment

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TO] Devastating Dreams
SB: 1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
SB: 1 [EVE] Worm Harvest
SB: 1 [OD] Haunting Echoes
SB: 1 [PS] Hull Breach
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 [EVE] Raven's Crime
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree

Pulp_Fiction
09-21-2008, 11:07 PM
I actually really like this deck. Especially the name, The Tremors series are some of my favorite movies ever. In particular Tremors 2: Aftershocks. I have no idea why, but I fucking love that movie. Anyway, I have a lot of experience with Aggro Loam and I would not play any wishboard without these 5 cards:

1x Life From the Loam
1x Shattering Spree/Meltdown/Seeds of Innocence
1x Devastating Dreams
1x Reverent Silence
1x Chainer's Edict

And with your build I would highly recommend Cranial Extraction as a 3x of in the SB and also 1x additional Worm Harvest in case you can't find it and 1x Regrowth to bring back Seismic Assault or whatever good shit is needed at the time.

I also am not sure Raven's Crime is necessary. I am certainly going to give this deck a shot but Raven's Crime seems out of place. The whole deck is focused on fucking up your opponent's manabase and then randomly its like AHHH DISCARD YOUR HAND. Its cool and everything but I am not sure how necessary it is, maybe as a 1x of in the SB. Personally I would cut Raven's Crime and add the 6th cycling land to the deck and something like Harmonize.

Also, don't play any less than 4x Wasteland. The only time I hated seeing Wasteland in multiples is in my opening hand without a Mox Diamond, thats it.

Brot_Ohne_Kruste
09-22-2008, 12:18 AM
I actually really like this deck. Especially the name, The Tremors series are some of my favorite movies ever. In particular Tremors 2: Aftershocks. I have no idea why, but I fucking love that movie. Anyway, I have a lot of experience with Aggro Loam and I would not play any wishboard without these 5 cards:

1x Life From the Loam
1x Shattering Spree/Meltdown/Seeds of Innocence
1x Devastating Dreams
1x Reverent Silence
1x Chainer's Edict

And with your build I would highly recommend Cranial Extraction as a 3x of in the SB and also 1x additional Worm Harvest in case you can't find it and 1x Regrowth to bring back Seismic Assault or whatever good shit is needed at the time.

I also am not sure Raven's Crime is necessary. I am certainly going to give this deck a shot but Raven's Crime seems out of place. The whole deck is focused on fucking up your opponent's manabase and then randomly its like AHHH DISCARD YOUR HAND. Its cool and everything but I am not sure how necessary it is, maybe as a 1x of in the SB. Personally I would cut Raven's Crime and add the 6th cycling land to the deck and something like Harmonize.

Also, don't play any less than 4x Wasteland. The only time I hated seeing Wasteland in multiples is in my opening hand without a Mox Diamond, thats it.


Hi,

actually Raven's Crime was for testing; I've played two Hymn to Tourach in place of them and I wasn't really satisfied with it, so I tried Raven's Crime. Maybe I'll play one Scrubland to support two Vindicates in that slot.
Also thanks for the SB-suggestions, I'll try Regrowth, it should be pretty good.
The problem of playing 4 Wastelands is that I don't know what to cut. If I'm cutting the Crimes and Vindicates aren't good (e.g. with Vindicates I've got a vulnurable manabase), I'll try an additional Wasteland.

Mantis
09-22-2008, 11:08 AM
Looks solid, I would like to see some more winconditions. It seems you would go to time in an awful lot of matchups you should have won. I really hate Mox Diamond and Deed in the same deck though.

I have a hard time believing your matchup against Storm combo though. This seems like an awful matchup considering your slow disruption and your lack of wincondtions. If they go off on turn 2 and they are on the play, there really isn't much you can do to prevent that.

But this deck really punishes bad manabases and Deed is awesome right now, so I could see this deck do quite good if you don't go to time too often.

Brot_Ohne_Kruste
09-22-2008, 11:45 AM
@Mantis: Which other wincoditions do you want to play? Mishra's Factory? Rude Awakening or Beacons in the SB? I've tested Roar of the Wurm (which always died to EE), Nether Spirit and Undead Gladiator, but I don't really think they are good especially because they aren't finisher. But you're right, the problem of this deck is, that you will often time against anything containing blue and counter.

To the Stormcombo-Matchup: Yeah, this could be. I've just done three games against it with Chalice main and I won all of them. Maybe I was just lucky.

Maybe Shards will bring a few good wincons (and a couple of new combodecks -.-).

Mantis
09-22-2008, 12:06 PM
Roar of the Wurm is way too expensive, if anything play Grizzly Fate (but perhaps Worm Harvest is just plain better. But I would play a sideboard finisher and Worm Harvest, Grizzly Fate or Rude Awakening seem like good candidates.

Post Shards this deck might not even be viable anymore as people might start to pack Relic of Progenitus in the mainboard. But time will tell.

The_Red_Panda
09-22-2008, 01:57 PM
I own all the cards for this deck, so I threw it together and tested it.

It is the shit, like I really love it. Your only real problem is that your combo match up is actually lower than you list it being. Combo is probably a closer to 60/70% in their favor. But that's the trade off you make for demolishing everything else, thresh goblins ect.

I've also upped the Smallpox count to four. With diamonds & a solitary gigapede maindeck, the effect from Smallpox is almost always asymmetrical, and the ability to knock off goyfs, dreadnoughts and tombstalkers left and right is astounding. It's significantly not as good against goblins, but you've got enough tools for that matchup already.

I've cut the Deeds from the main. I don't like blowing up my moxen at all. It really doesn't feel right to do that. Also, I've upped the seismic assault count to 3, and brought worm harvest down to 1 main and one sideboard.


I believe a deck quite similar to this one was listed at TheManaDrain under the title Kobe Loam. I think it ran a Genesis-Witness recursion engine though, which I find to be subpar compared to Recoup/running more good cards.

Pulp_Fiction
09-22-2008, 05:05 PM
@ Red Panda: So what does you list look like? Did you replace Deed with EE? That seems like the better card than Deed in a deck that runs Mox. Also, a little while back when I took Chalice out of the main in Aggro Loam I put in 3x Krosan Grip and 1x Putrefy in the main. Putrefy is a damn good card. Certainly something to consider. Also, did you cut Raven's Crime? 3x Seismic Assault just sounds wrong, a deck that consistently needs BB playing more spells that are so color specific, especially something like RRR. If it works then it works, but I am just saying you don't want to draw into Assault to early since you should be playing Smallpox and Sinkholes.

EDIT: I have a good idea, how about cutting the 2x Raven's Crime and the 3x Pernicious Deed and putting in 4x Chalice of the Void and 1x Forgotten Cave.

The_Red_Panda
09-23-2008, 01:05 AM
Red Panda: So what does you list look like? Did you replace Deed with EE? That seems like the better card than Deed in a deck that runs Mox. Also, a little while back when I took Chalice out of the main in Aggro Loam I put in 3x Krosan Grip and 1x Putrefy in the main. Putrefy is a damn good card. Certainly something to consider. Also, did you cut Raven's Crime? 3x Seismic Assault just sounds wrong, a deck that consistently needs BB playing more spells that are so color specific, especially something like RRR. If it works then it works, but I am just saying you don't want to draw into Assault to early since you should be playing Smallpox and Sinkholes.


Lets see if I can do my list from memory:

Lands (25)

4 Wasteland
4 Cyclers (1 black 2 green 1 red)
4 R/G fetch
4 G/W fetch (my base is green, so I took these over the black-fetchers)
4 Tiaga
2 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Swamp

4 Mox Diamond
3 LFTL
4 Burning Wish
3 Devastating Dreams
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Smallpox
1 Worm Harvest
2 Boom/Bust (I like having an armageddon button. Plus, using the other half early isn't that bad. This card might go up in numbers.)
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Seismic Assault
1 Raven's Crime (Soon to be replaced by something worth a damn, because this sucker STILL gets shut off by Chalice, and doesn't do much anyways)
2 (I don't know what this card is, but I cut Sensei's for it when I put in Chalice)
1 Gigapede

Sideboard:

4 Shattering Spree
1 Boom/Bust
1 Devastating Dreams
1 LFTL
1 Worm Harvest
1 Void
1 Firespout
5 ?, where ? is some form of artifact and enchantment removal. I kinda want these to be Kgrips, but I also kinda want sorcery speed enchantment removal.


That looks right, but I don't have the deck right next to me or anything.

The mana costs are hideous. I know that, but somehow with Mox and 8 fetches, I manage to get by. RRR and BB and {G/B} {G/B} {G/B} all in the same deck. But it works, and the manabase is not shaky enough to merit not running some of those cards. That said, the singleton swamp is kinda stupid, because I can't fetch it. But I don't own B/R fetches, and I would probably have to shell out for them, which I don't wanna do.


Card Choices:

Smallpox: This is probably my favorite card in the whole deck to resolve. Eating your lands (especially only one of them) is completely negligible. Pitching a single card in a deck with LFTL is a joke, and 1 life is insignificant. This card is almost completely asymetrical. It should read, target player sacrifices a creature, a land and discards a card. The added bonus of being non-targeted removal with the ability to kill Tombstalker makes me cream myself. There are fewer cards out there than I originally thought that bring that beast down, and small pox does a hell of a good job of it.

Devastating Dreams: Owns goblins, goyfstompy and anything else without blue. Hard. I hesitate to ever cast this against thresh, however, as getting one of these things spell-snared can be GG in itself, especially when pitching 4+ cards.

Life from the Loam: Only marginally worse than Ancestral Recall. (Mild hyperbole)

Burning Wish: Goes for Devastating Dreams first against non-blue aggro decks. Goes for Loam first against everything else. And I'm serious about going for DD. If that card resolves against aggro you win.

Engineered Explosives: Better than Deed because it doesn't rape your moxen. Can be set as high as five, but only realistically as high as 4. Kills goyf dead.

Chalice of the Void: Set to 1 first. If you draw more copies, set them to 0 first, then three. Please do not set to two. Think Holy Hand Grenade, but you never stop on 2.

Boom/Bust: is surprisingly good. I originally put it in the deck for the Geddon effect, but then I started casting it as the "bad sinkhole" half, and I like it. I cut sinkhole because I thought it wasn't versatile enough, and this might qualify as my "more versatile" sinkhole. Geddon late(er) game is very nice, and with moxes and LFTL you can accelerate this to the point where it works pretty well.

Seismic Assault: is almost worth having 4. I've found that If I resolve this, the control it gives me is through the roof. I've shocked down armies of critters before, and this card makes it happen. The fact that it finishes my opponent in short order after blasting his army away is a nice added bonus.

Gigapede: Smashes face, doesn't get stuck with a plowshare, and comes back from the dead.

Worm Harvest: Read Gigapede. These cards practically do the same thing, except this one is immune to Humility.




Lots of weird one-ofs and two-ofs, but the deck works good. I still don't know what that last two-of is. It might become Putrefy if I find it's good in testing. Or if it turns out I have secret tech, which I highly doubt I do.

Pulp_Fiction
09-23-2008, 02:19 AM
I really like this deck but the more I goldfished it the more I began to realize how affected this deck is by Tormod's Crypt and Leyline of the Void. Aggro Loam just laughs at Tormod's Crypt, when playing Loam I want people to board this in so long as they take out potential threats cause Crypt does next to nothing to Aggro Loam. Graboids (fucking sweet name) seems to just be destroyed by Tormod's Crypt. You have to be careful what you are dredging with Loam, what gets removed when Crypt activates actually affects you. Both are affected by Leyline but Aggro Loam is more inconvenienced and this deck is almost just shut down. Mox, Land, Burning Wish for Reverent Silence stops this in both but graveyard hate just greatly affects this deck.

Of course, that is what CotV is for but having to waste a CotV by setting it @ 0 just to avoid getting rocked by a sideboard card which may be a 3-4 of and shutting off you remaining Mox Diamonds is not a hot play. CotV should almost always be set @ 1 because substantial amount of 1 drops played in Legacy. I am not saying this as a rude comment but just as a serious question; what would be the benefit of playing this over Aggro Loam? Graboids is hella slower, easier to disrupt (as much as the sick-nasty Loam engine can be I suppose), and does it actually have better matchups than Aggro Loam does against the Legacy meta?

The_Red_Panda
09-23-2008, 02:25 AM
I am not saying this as a rude comment but just as a serious question; what would be the benefit of playing this over Aggro Loam? Graboids is hella slower, easier to disrupt (as much as the sick-nasty Loam engine can be I suppose), and does it actually have better matchups than Aggro Loam does against the Legacy meta?

I can't think of any off the top of my head. This deck is more fun, but that really doesn't count. There is a reason it's in the new and developmental section.

...

After thinking about it for a while, the only reason I can come up with is that this deck might be able to do better against control. We care a hell of a lot less about landstill than Aggro loam does. Humility=jack-squat to us, same with swords, ect. Most creature removal in the format does piddly to us, which makes a lot of cards in most peoples decks completely dead game one. That's not entirely the case for Aggro Loam. Hope that helps, but weak reasoning, I know.

Brot_Ohne_Kruste
09-23-2008, 12:31 PM
Lets see if I can do my list from memory:

Lands (25)

4 Wasteland
4 Cyclers (1 black 2 green 1 red)
4 R/G fetch
4 G/W fetch (my base is green, so I took these over the black-fetchers)
4 Tiaga
2 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Swamp

4 Mox Diamond
3 LFTL
4 Burning Wish
3 Devastating Dreams
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Smallpox
1 Worm Harvest
2 Boom/Bust (I like having an armageddon button. Plus, using the other half early isn't that bad. This card might go up in numbers.)
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Seismic Assault
1 Raven's Crime (Soon to be replaced by something worth a damn, because this sucker STILL gets shut off by Chalice, and doesn't do much anyways)
2 (I don't know what this card is, but I cut Sensei's for it when I put in Chalice)
1 Gigapede

Sideboard:

4 Shattering Spree
1 Boom/Bust
1 Devastating Dreams
1 LFTL
1 Worm Harvest
1 Void
1 Firespout
5 ?, where ? is some form of artifact and enchantment removal. I kinda want these to be Kgrips, but I also kinda want sorcery speed enchantment removal.


Mh, I don't know. I can see the reasons to run EE over Deed, but I don't think that EE is betten than Deed. Sure, you are running the Mox, but in most cases you want to blow up the Deed in the mid- or lategame and at this point you've got enough manasources so it doesn't matter if you blow up a Mox. The reason I play Deed is that it destoys more permanents than EE.
I'm not sure if your decklist is the way to go, but I don't think so. You're loosing to Crypts and other stuff really easy. Also, taking out many good sorceries + Recoup (which is so good) makes the deck weaker than it could be I think. It's more like an Aggro Loam with a blacksplash just for Smallpox and without aggro :).

But anyway, thanks to all for your ideas, I haven't thought that anyone would comment on that topic^^.

The_Red_Panda
09-23-2008, 12:33 PM
Added 1xTranquility to my sideboard. Enchantress matchup just got a lot better.

johanessen
09-23-2008, 01:12 PM
Added 1xTranquility to my sideboard. Enchantress matchup just got a lot better.



Reverent Silenence is better imo

The_Red_Panda
09-23-2008, 01:15 PM
It's rather rare that I can't just wish for and cast that card all at once in this deck. Although you're probably right.

Brot_Ohne_Kruste
10-08-2008, 02:25 PM
After taking the deck to two big german tournaments (Dülmen and Iserlohn) and testing many games, I'm really happy with my latest list. In August I played in Dülmen and made a 3-2-1 finish, placing 17th out of 50 (I was running a list without Recoups -.-) and last Sunday in Iserlohn I've done the 12th place out of 59, playing 4-2 (lost to Goblins and "Thresh", won matches against 2x Fish, Zoo and FaerieStompy). But I wasn't really setisfied with the list of Iserlohn, because I played 2 Boom/Busts instead of the Raven's Crimes in my first list, which I boarded out every game. Now I'm running a list with 3 Sensei's Divining Top instead of the Booms, which results in a list of 61 cards. I also tweaked the SB a little bit. Here is the list:


// Lands
3 [B] Badlands
3 [ON] Barren Moor
2 [A] Bayou
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [A] Forest (1)
1 [ON] Forgotten Cave
3 [IN] Swamp (1)
1 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [IN] Mountain (4)

// Creatures
1 [ON] Gigapede

// Spells
4 [JU] Burning Wish
2 [DIS] Crime/Punishment
2 [TO] Devastating Dreams
3 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [A] Sinkhole
4 [TSP] Smallpox
1 [EVE] Worm Harvest
2 [OD] Recoup
2 [EX] Seismic Assault
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DIS] Crime/Punishment
SB: 1 [TO] Devastating Dreams
SB: 1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
SB: 1 [EVE] Worm Harvest
SB: 1 [PS] Hull Breach
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [OD] Haunting Echoes
SB: 1 [B] Regrowth
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 3 [OD] Coffin Purge

The addition of Tops was the missing piece the deck lacked of I think. With the Tops you can control your draw to screw your opponent even more or you can just dredge. I think they give us a better matchup against any deck except Fastcombo. Especially controlling the draw against control for LD and against aggro for removal is pretty neat.
What do you think?

The_Red_Panda
10-11-2008, 03:21 AM
Chalice of the Void. Yes top conflicts with it, but can you really afford to cut it entirely?

Anusien
10-11-2008, 03:03 PM
What about putting all 4 Life from the Loam in the maindeck and putting a Gamble in the sideboard instead to wish for.

Brot_Ohne_Kruste
10-11-2008, 03:45 PM
Chalice of the Void. Yes top conflicts with it, but can you really afford to cut it entirely?

Actually, I think I can. The problem is that I would play them, if I have any space. Even sideboarding is quite hard for me, because I'm not always sure what to cut. What would you cut for the Chalices?


What about putting all 4 Life from the Loam in the maindeck and putting a Gamble in the sideboard instead to wish for.

So, you mean wishing for Gamble to tutor for Life? Mh, the idea is not bad, but I don't know what to cut, thats my problem. What do you think?


€:// I cutted 1 Top, so I'm at 60 cards now, again.

Brot_Ohne_Kruste
10-17-2008, 11:42 AM
I played in Dülmen last sunday and took the 8th place out of 68 people with this deck, playing 5-1-1. I lost to Goyf Sligh in the first round, because I made a mistake and won against 2x 5c Zoo, Ugb Thresh, Gub Fish and Affinity. I drawed in the last round. Here is a short report:



Round 1 vs. Goyf-Sligh:
G1: Because of a big mistake I lost this game. I wished for a Regrowth for my Assault in my grave instead of Dreams that have could won me the game.
G2: 4 creatures in 3 rounds aren't that good for me without any solution.
0-2
0-1-0

Round 2 vs. 5c Zoo:
G1: I controlled the game and won through Assault.
G2: He played Grunt and Tarmogoyf and killed me.
G3: I played Chalice on 1 and 0, which I boarded and I destroyed his lands. Then he played a Tin-Street Hooligan with Taiga and Volrath's Stronghold and targeted my Chalice on 0 (in this moment I didn't really realized, that this isn't possible), played a Crypt and removed my grave. Next round the same thing. After that I gained control of the game and the Assault won the game.
2-3
1-1-0

Round 3 vs. Ugb Thresh:
G1: He beats me a little bit with his Mongoose, I could stabilizate myself on 4 lifes with Smallpoxes, destroyed his lands and played a Gigapede, which won me the game because he hasn't got any removal for it.
G2: After one Extirpate von my Loam and a Crypt, I destroyed his whole lands and he couldn't get into the game. After a few turns I had enough lands to play Assault and win the game.
4-3
2-1-0

Round 4 gg. Ug(b) Fish:
G1: In the first turn he played a Bird, I srewed him a little bit and let him sacrifice his Bird. After that he played a Sword of Light and Shadow with a creature in play, but a Deed for 3 destoyed them. After that, his last lands were destroyed and he scooped.
G2: Nearly the same thing as before, just the Assault won me that game.
6-3
3-1-0

Round 5 vs. 5c Zoo:
G1: I destroyed his manabase, played a Assault, killed his creatures and then him.
G2: He began with first turn Needle on Wasteland. On my first turn I played land, Mox, Chalice one. He looked at his hand and he doesn't seem so happy. I smallpoxed and sinkholed him a little bit, found a Wish, wished for Shattering Spree and wasted his last land. After that he scooped.
8-3
4-1-0

Round 6 vs. Affinity:
G1: LD + Deed-Effcets+Assault > Affinity
G2: He crypted me one time, but I've got the Wish for Loam. After that the Assault was online and burned his creatures and him.
10-3
5-1-0

Round 7 vs. Landstill:
We drawed.
10-3
5-1-1


I took the 8th place out of 68 because of my bad opp.-score. The first top 8 placing with this deck on an big event. I was really impressed and I'm happy now :).

Pro:
- the deck for its sadistic plan
- Recoup
- Chalices in the Board are really usefull

Cons:
- it was quite cold
- two really dumb mistakes which cost me games...

Vacrix
10-17-2008, 01:27 PM
red vs. blue

question, how good is burning wish? and, would mystical tutor be a better choice. sounds crazy i know, here me out:

if, you run blue instead of red you get mystical tutor and stifle. stifle, MD, is great for LD (on fetches), and its good for stopping combo, which you have alot of trouble with. if you cut red you lose burning wish, devastating dreams, recoup and seismic assualt.

- burning wish can be replaced by mystical tutor. tutor can find you mass removal like crime/punishment. so run more of those in place of devastating dreams. if can also find you stifle vs. combo, and it can find you raven's crime for the right matchups, and more LD, all for the cost of 1. sounds like a good deal to me at least.

- devastating dreams can be replaced by more crime and punishments. its just that crime and punishment doesn't blow up land. but you have alot of LD anyway. i'm not sure if that would be a good idea though. devastating dreams is good against aggro only. control will counter it and combo will just play around it with artifact mana and rituals anyway. if you wana kill a bunch of creatures anyway, you can always just use pyroclasm. how often do you really need dreams to resolve for more than 2?

- recoup is a cool trick but with mystical tutor you can find more LD instead of recasting it. recoup is kind of expensive anyway to play and if you are sacing wastelands and blowing your own land with devastating dreams how useful will it really be against aggro?
seismic assualt is cool but i'm not sure how it works in this deck so i'm not sure what could replace it.


with blue you also get access to daze and other countermagic. daze should be a great choice for this too, as your opponent will always have to play off of very few land, so daze will more likely not be a bad top deck later in the game like it usually is with other decks. also, chain of vapor could be nice too, as you want lands in your graveyard sometimes and it could be a great way to get a bunch of creatures off of the board that your opponent will not be able to replay with their lack of lands. also, remand is a strong choice. most people don't realize how powerful it is. remand is a time walk against aggro. it will buy you time to play your mass removal before the stomp all over you. against control, you can remand your own spells and replay them. against combo you can counter their business and then blow up their land while they are rebuilding.

also, whether or not mystical tutor winds up being a stronger MD choice then burning wish, it will open up 15 SB slots that you didn't have before. this could improve your game against alot. this will free up space to board in vexing shushers to protect your LD from control. it will let you run chalice in the board to help you combat combo (your combo matchup should be better anyway with 4 MD stifles and 4 mystical tutor for stifle). it will free up space so you can run graveyard hate like wheel of sun and moon or crypt or leyline of the void (which are all in your colors). you can even run expirate, more mass removal, whatever you want.



btw here are some cards that (seem like they could be synergetic in this:

- Thorn of Amythest (they can't really play spells if everything costs more)
- Ruination (great target for burning wish against control if you keep red)
- Trinisphere (would improve your combo matchup. and its a great lock if you can keep your opponent on few lands)
- Crucible of Worlds (its cool with wasteland obviously, and you put quite a bit of land in the grave)
- Spiketail Hatchling (would be nice if you run blue, especially when they have low land)
- Root maze (top decked lands dont get a chance to untap so you can blow them up)
- Sylvan library (draw engine)
- Dark Confidant (draw engine)
- Sensei's diving top (would be nice to find LD faster)
- Counterbalance (if you run blue, and top, this would be sick and improve the combo matchup massively)
- Braids (would work well with loam, and can make your opponent choose between creatures and land, if creatures, they can't win, you blow up their lands, if land, you have more mana each turn to deal with the creatures and tutor up answers)
- Pox (i guess it got cut though)
- Wasteland (why not 4? having problems with color?)
- Magus of the Moon (if you keep red, nice v thresh/landstill)
- Vexing Shusher (if you free up SB space for it, maybe by dropping red, you can still cast it with green)
- Cunning Lethemancer/Hypnotic Specter (great side in against control. if control doesn't find an answer for it, they are done. against combo its a nice way to lock them out of rebuilding as easily. both can bring the beats too, which is always nice)
- Tarmogoyf (just kidding)


also i think that you guys need an alternate win con besides worm harvest. maybe that was seismic assualt.. im not too familiar with the deck sorry. it would be nice to not lose to a single yixilid jailer or withered wretch.




just my thoughts. they are usually pretty out there as you can see.

Brot_Ohne_Kruste
10-19-2008, 04:35 AM
red vs. blue

question, how good is burning wish? and, would mystical tutor be a better choice. sounds crazy i know, here me out:


The problem of cutting the Wish is that you'll die to hate. I really like the wish, it solves many problems against varies decks.




- burning wish can be replaced by mystical tutor. tutor can find you mass removal like crime/punishment. so run more of those in place of devastating dreams. if can also find you stifle vs. combo, and it can find you raven's crime for the right matchups, and more LD, all for the cost of 1. sounds like a good deal to me at least.


In my eyes, the Tutor isn't that good. You are just manipulating your library and drawing the card instead of taking it into your hand like the Wish does. With the Wish you are also drawing a extra card. The problem I have with the Tutor is that it's quite slow and you are normally drawing your tutored card in your next turn. I would rather play Intuition.




- devastating dreams can be replaced by more crime and punishments. its just that crime and punishment doesn't blow up land. but you have alot of LD anyway. i'm not sure if that would be a good idea though. devastating dreams is good against aggro only. control will counter it and combo will just play around it with artifact mana and rituals anyway. if you wana kill a bunch of creatures anyway, you can always just use pyroclasm. how often do you really need dreams to resolve for more than 2?


You're right, Dreams was always a shaky candidate for this deck. I'll try a few other cards in its slot.




- recoup is a cool trick but with mystical tutor you can find more LD instead of recasting it. recoup is kind of expensive anyway to play and if you are sacing wastelands and blowing your own land with devastating dreams how useful will it really be against aggro?
seismic assualt is cool but i'm not sure how it works in this deck so i'm not sure what could replace it.


I really love Recoup. It won me so many games that I've already lost that I don't want to miss it anymore :).
Actually Seismic Assault is the fast kill condition of this deck. You're just dropping it and burn your opponent down in 2-3 turns. It's also awesome against creatures, it's like a worser WoG ;).




with blue you also get access to daze and other countermagic. daze should be a great choice for this too, as your opponent will always have to play off of very few land, so daze will more likely not be a bad top deck later in the game like it usually is with other decks. also, chain of vapor could be nice too, as you want lands in your graveyard sometimes and it could be a great way to get a bunch of creatures off of the board that your opponent will not be able to replay with their lack of lands. also, remand is a strong choice. most people don't realize how powerful it is. remand is a time walk against aggro. it will buy you time to play your mass removal before the stomp all over you. against control, you can remand your own spells and replay them. against combo you can counter their business and then blow up their land while they are rebuilding.

It's an interesting idea to play countermagic, but with replacing red, you're attacking the deck's consistency which I would'nt offering for playing counters, but mayby I'll try it out.




also, whether or not mystical tutor winds up being a stronger MD choice then burning wish, it will open up 15 SB slots that you didn't have before. this could improve your game against alot. this will free up space to board in vexing shushers to protect your LD from control. it will let you run chalice in the board to help you combat combo (your combo matchup should be better anyway with 4 MD stifles and 4 mystical tutor for stifle). it will free up space so you can run graveyard hate like wheel of sun and moon or crypt or leyline of the void (which are all in your colors). you can even run expirate, more mass removal, whatever you want.


I don't really like the Shusher. It's a creature and it's the only target for the opponent's removal. Actually I'm running Chalices in the SB right now which were pretty awesome at the tournament on last sunday (I'll post my recent list on my first post). But overall, it's an interesting idea.




btw here are some cards that (seem like they could be synergetic in this:

- Thorn of Amythest (they can't really play spells if everything costs more)
- Ruination (great target for burning wish against control if you keep red)
- Trinisphere (would improve your combo matchup. and its a great lock if you can keep your opponent on few lands)
- Crucible of Worlds (its cool with wasteland obviously, and you put quite a bit of land in the grave)
- Spiketail Hatchling (would be nice if you run blue, especially when they have low land)
- Root maze (top decked lands dont get a chance to untap so you can blow them up)
- Sylvan library (draw engine)
- Dark Confidant (draw engine)
- Sensei's diving top (would be nice to find LD faster)
- Counterbalance (if you run blue, and top, this would be sick and improve the combo matchup massively)
- Braids (would work well with loam, and can make your opponent choose between creatures and land, if creatures, they can't win, you blow up their lands, if land, you have more mana each turn to deal with the creatures and tutor up answers)
- Pox (i guess it got cut though)
- Wasteland (why not 4? having problems with color?)
- Magus of the Moon (if you keep red, nice v thresh/landstill)
- Vexing Shusher (if you free up SB space for it, maybe by dropping red, you can still cast it with green)
- Cunning Lethemancer/Hypnotic Specter (great side in against control. if control doesn't find an answer for it, they are done. against combo its a nice way to lock them out of rebuilding as easily. both can bring the beats too, which is always nice)
- Tarmogoyf (just kidding)


- Thorn of Amythest: I would rather run Sphere of Resistance because I'm not running any creature.
- Ruination: It is a great target, but most controldecks are fetching on basics...
- Trinisphere: Mh, I'll try it.
- Crucible of Worlds: I've thought about it too, but I wasn't really impressed by it.
- Spiketail Hatchling: It's a creature...
- Root maze: It's nice, but will be blown up by Deed and disrupts yourself a little bit.
- Sylvan library: It costs you too many lifes.
- Dark Confidant: It's a creature and costs you too many lifes.
- Sensei's diving top: I'm already playing two which were really good.
- Counterbalance: Thought about it too, but I didn't want to cut red.
- Braids: I tested the card, but the problem is that it's a creature.
- Pox: It wasn't that good.
- Wasteland: I'm already playing 4 ;).
- Magus of the Moon: It's a creature.
- Vexing Shusher: It's a creature.
- Cunning Lethemancer/Hypnotic Specter: They are creatures.



Thanks for all your ideas, I really like if people are interested in this deck :).

Vacrix
10-19-2008, 09:41 AM
ya i'm very interested.

and i would want people to be interested in my decks too if i made them. though i have and nobody is returning the favor.. lol

anyways, yeah i agree with everything you said.

here are a couple more ideas:

- Rancid Earth (you will have thresh quickly anyway making this, i think, a better drop vs. aggro sometimes then sinkhole. or maybe in addition to sinkhole?)

- Scragnoth (sick drop against landstill if you are having problems, can't remove it either)

- Ghostquarter (if you run crucible this can exhaust them of basics and eventually become a stripmine. :] )

- Pyroclasm (i really, REALLY, suggest this as at least a tutor target. at least for me, it often wipes the board against aggro, especially if you hit the forests with wasteland/sinkhole against those dam kird apes. :P o and it hits unthreshed Goose)

- Lightning Storm (if you have enough land in hand after loaming this could be a nice win con (ie. just 3 lands on it is 9 damage. :O unfortunately, you cant really tutor it up with burning wish. but if you have mystical tutor you can. but i understand that you don't want to run that)

- Magma Vein (GOD this could be really good in this deck. especially with loam, and even better with crucible)

- Lava Blister (Sinkhole at 1R? holy shit! if they take 6, cool you are going to kill them really fast with something else. i think its shaky but deserves testing)

- Volcanic Spray (i'm not sure how good this is, but its a removal spell with flash back. if it doesnt get rid of everything when you cast it on turn 2, then you can instead play at like a pyroclasm at 4 on turn 4 instead. its almost as if it has a built in recoup. :P deserves testing?)


EDIT:

SORRY. Scragnoth, is supposed to be Quagnoth. my bad. you can't remove quanoth, you Can remove scragnoth. haha. wow..
Scragnoth is jank.

Brot_Ohne_Kruste
10-24-2008, 02:45 PM
Here are a few thoughts on your cards:

- Rancid Earth: It's okay, but in the first turns you haven't got Threshold and in the mid- and lategame it isn't that strong. Also, one Mana more for destroying a Land is inferior to Sinkhole.

- Quagnoth: Quite interresting, I think I'll test it, although it bad if it's goes to the grave.

- Ghostquarter: The problem of Ghostquarter is that it's inferior to Wasteland in the most cases. Maybe I'll try it as a one-of.

- Pyroclasm: It's a good card, but I can't find space in the SB for it.

- Lightning Storm: It may be a finisher, but it just does 2 damage per land and because of your low life you have almost the whole game, a few damages more through lands the opponent can throw in there could cause my death.

- Magma Vein: I don't know. It's quite hard sacrificing more lands as I do right now with this deck. Maybe I'll try 2-3 in the SB.

- Lava Blister: I'll test it, but at the moment it find Devastating Dreams better.

- Volcanic Spray: It's okay, but since Tarmogoyf or Nacatl it's quite hard to kill them just with 1 damage.



I've played a tournament with the deck. I cutted the 2 Dreams in the MB for 2 Explosives and 1 Gigapede for 1 Deed. The Deed was good, the Explosives were awful. Against Aggro the Dreams are better and against other decks you don't need the Explosives. Now I'll exchange the Explosives back to Dreams.
I finished the tournament with 3-2-0, winning 2-0 against 4c Landstill, Mono R Burn and Eva Green and lost 0-2 to It's the Fear (2x CB+Top) and 1-2 to 5c Zoo.

The_Red_Panda
10-29-2008, 02:09 PM
Dreams was always a shaky candidate for this deck

My testing of this deck has said the exact opposite thing. In some cases it feels like the deck is built simply to properly abuse this card.



Actually, I think I can. The problem is that I would play them, if I have any space. Even sideboarding is quite hard for me, because I'm not always sure what to cut. What would you cut for the Chalices?

I would lose the Crime/Punishments from the main along with the Deeds. Three deeds become 3 chalice, and I would suppose the 3rd top becomes a chalice too. Then Dostoevsky becomes EE.

Honestly, is there a reason to run Dostoevsky over EE? I mean, yea, Crime is useful to find a finisher one in thirty times, but the EE has about the same color intensity as the half you're actually going to cast, and can be cast over two turns which is actually a fairly big deal if you have a mox-less hand and you're staring down early goyfs.

Yes, cutting Deed raises the question of whether or not you have enough mass removal to handle aggro rush. In testing against pure aggro decks I've found that with 3 DD main (my version runs 1 more than yours) along with 4 wishes for either DD or Crime/Punishment (which is appropriate in this case because I can't wish for EE), and 4 smallpox I really don't have a problem against aggro.




I really love Recoup. It won me so many games that I've already lost that I don't want to miss it anymore :).

Seconded. Milling this lategame with LFTL feels like drawing an extra card.


I'm not sure if your decklist is the way to go, but I don't think so. You're loosing to Crypts and other stuff really easy.

I fail completely to see how my list loses to crypt more than yours does.
I run 3 LFTL, 3 Recoup, a Gigapede, and a Wormharvest as my Grave-dependent cards in the maindeck, and your list runs those exact same cards, sans one Recoup. The only possible way I could see my list being more disrupted by gravehate than yours is the fact that I run an addtional DD, and I clearly rely on the card more than you do. This might make me more dependent on LFTL, as a way to come back from my loss of card advantage due to DD.

I find this argument lacking, considering we both run the card, and in situations where I resolve a DD successfully, the tempo gained from it will probably equalize any disruption I feel from a crypt that has been played and activated after casting Dreams. If Crypt is on the board, I'm not casting dreams. I'm going to look for a way to force my opponent to pop it prematurely, namely EE at 0 or wish for artifact removal. This is all assuming I haven't dropped Chalice at 0, which I am rather fond of doing now that there's a fair deal of combo running around. Leyline falls under similar rules, as it needs to be in play before I actually care about it. If it hit's on turn zero, I'll admit that it's a pain in the ass. But that can't be any less so for your lists than mine.

The list I am currently testing, for refrence:


Lands (25)

4 Wasteland
3 Cyclers (2 green 1 red)
4 R/G fetch
4 G/W fetch
4 Tiaga
3 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Swamp

Other stuff (35)
4 Mox Diamond
3 LFTL
4 Burning Wish
3 Devastating Dreams
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Smallpox
1 Worm Harvest
3 Recoup
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Seismic Assault
2 Sensei's
1 Gigapede

Sideboard (15)

Sideboard:

1 Shattering Spree
1 Crime/Punishment
1 Devastating Dreams
1 LFTL
1 Worm Harvest
1 Firespout
3 Krosan Grip
1 Reverant Silence
1 Violent Ultimatum
1 Regrowth
3 Rapid Decay

Yea, sensei's and Chalice have uber nega-synergy. I really like the tops and the CotV main, however, so I keep them in. I feel this is the weakest part of my build so far.

No, I have never cast Violent Ultimatum outside of testing. If I ever pull it off, I will be thrilled to the core.


Also, is Rapid Decay not the sexiest thing you've seen in a while? Helps fight off grave hate by cycling to get back LFTL, and acts as it's own grave hate popping three cards for 2 mana. Only downside is that I cant mill it. Still, preference goes to the Decay in my book.

Brot_Ohne_Kruste
10-29-2008, 07:35 PM
My testing of this deck has said the exact opposite thing. In some cases it feels like the deck is built simply to properly abuse this card.


You're absolutely right. After I took out the Dreams, I always wanted them instead of EE.




I would lose the Crime/Punishments from the main along with the Deeds. Three deeds become 3 chalice, and I would suppose the 3rd top becomes a chalice too. Then Dostoevsky becomes EE.

Honestly, is there a reason to run Dostoevsky over EE? I mean, yea, Crime is useful to find a finisher one in thirty times, but the EE has about the same color intensity as the half you're actually going to cast, and can be cast over two turns which is actually a fairly big deal if you have a mox-less hand and you're staring down early goyfs.

Yes, cutting Deed raises the question of whether or not you have enough mass removal to handle aggro rush. In testing against pure aggro decks I've found that with 3 DD main (my version runs 1 more than yours) along with 4 wishes for either DD or Crime/Punishment (which is appropriate in this case because I can't wish for EE), and 4 smallpox I really don't have a problem against aggro.

Actually I have thought about running Chalices again. Also I think that 6 massremoval are too much, so I'll test 3 EE instead. Chalices aren't just good against Aggro, they are also good against other decks.




I fail completely to see how my list loses to crypt more than yours does.
I run 3 LFTL, 3 Recoup, a Gigapede, and a Wormharvest as my Grave-dependent cards in the maindeck, and your list runs those exact same cards, sans one Recoup. The only possible way I could see my list being more disrupted by gravehate than yours is the fact that I run an addtional DD, and I clearly rely on the card more than you do. This might make me more dependent on LFTL, as a way to come back from my loss of card advantage due to DD.

I find this argument lacking, considering we both run the card, and in situations where I resolve a DD successfully, the tempo gained from it will probably equalize any disruption I feel from a crypt that has been played and activated after casting Dreams. If Crypt is on the board, I'm not casting dreams. I'm going to look for a way to force my opponent to pop it prematurely, namely EE at 0 or wish for artifact removal. This is all assuming I haven't dropped Chalice at 0, which I am rather fond of doing now that there's a fair deal of combo running around. Leyline falls under similar rules, as it needs to be in play before I actually care about it. If it hit's on turn zero, I'll admit that it's a pain in the ass. But that can't be any less so for your lists than mine.

The problem that you have with hate is that you're running a lesser count of LD. Running more LD means you can control your opponent for a longer time to find a solution which, in my eyes, is better for fighting against hate.




Also, is Rapid Decay not the sexiest thing you've seen in a while? Helps fight off grave hate by cycling to get back LFTL, and acts as it's own grave hate popping three cards for 2 mana. Only downside is that I cant mill it. Still, preference goes to the Decay in my book.

Actually I really like it. I'll test it next time.


After realizing that I'm running too many massremoval and too many lands, here is my recent list:

// Lands
3 [B] Badlands
3 [ON] Barren Moor
2 [A] Bayou
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [A] Forest (1)
1 [ON] Forgotten Cave
3 [IN] Swamp (1)
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [IN] Mountain (4)

// Spells
4 [JU] Burning Wish
3 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [A] Sinkhole
4 [TSP] Smallpox
1 [EVE] Worm Harvest
2 [OD] Recoup
2 [EX] Seismic Assault
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [TO] Devastating Dreams
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DIS] Crime/Punishment
SB: 1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
SB: 1 [EVE] Worm Harvest
SB: 1 [TO] Devastating Dreams
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [B] Regrowth
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 1 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 1 [TO] Chainer's Edict
SB: 3 [UD] Rapid Decay // Jund Charm


I took out Gigapede because I found it very fragile because of his 6/1-body. Also, running two Recoups with a total number of 21 Sorceries in the MB is a good choice I think.
As you can see, I want to play 3 Jund Charm in the SB. It could help with Aggro- and Graveyard-based-decks.


@The_Red_Pandas list:
Your list looks interesting, but I'm not really convinced if running such a low LD-count is so good. I really love LD-Effects and I don't want to miss them every time I play this deck.
Looking at your manabase I'm asking myself the question why you are running such a high G-landcount. I mean, in the MB you are just running LftL and Gigapede which need G (maybe EE too). Sure, you're just running 4-5 black and 13 red cards, but for me it would be no reason to run so many Duals and a 2:1-split of the Cyclelands which should be at least 1:2. Also I could imagine that your are pretty screwed without an basic Mountain if your opponent could get up an Wasteland-lock holding you back from red Mana.

Just a few thoughts on your list.

The_Red_Panda
10-29-2008, 10:57 PM
@The_Red_Pandas list:
Your list looks interesting, but I'm not really convinced if running such a low LD-count is so good. I really love LD-Effects and I don't want to miss them every time I play this deck.
Looking at your manabase I'm asking myself the question why you are running such a high G-landcount. I mean, in the MB you are just running LftL and Gigapede which need G (maybe EE too). Sure, you're just running 4-5 black and 13 red cards, but for me it would be no reason to run so many Duals and a 2:1-split of the Cyclelands which should be at least 1:2. Also I could imagine that your are pretty screwed without an basic Mountain if your opponent could get up an Wasteland-lock holding you back from red Mana.


I could probably test more LD effects, but in this deck, my gameplan has usually been to just completely demolish any sense of board position my opponent has through all that creature removal.

The manabase is mostly a function of wanting to cast LFTL as many times as I possibly can in the lategame, mostly to abuse Worm Harvest or Seismic. In reality, I should probably change it up a bit, but I've never had real problems with it. Wasteland locks are mitigated by the fact that I can LftL about as fast as they can wasteland. It sucks to have to do this, but eventually you end up with some artifact/enchantment removal, and a wasteland for their Ruins, and at that point you waste the ruins and blow the crucible on your turn so that they can't keep waste lock going. It's tedious, but most of the decks that have a wastelock aren't really going for the fast earlygame pressure, so you're fairly free to biuld until they hit the lock.

Brot_Ohne_Kruste
10-30-2008, 07:07 AM
I could probably test more LD effects, but in this deck, my gameplan has usually been to just completely demolish any sense of board position my opponent has through all that creature removal.


But in most cases the (mass-)removals are just good against Aggro, against other decks they are handeling a Goyf or an Artifact, but that's it. When you are running more LD, you can prevent that these cards enter play, so LD does a little bit more I think.




The manabase is mostly a function of wanting to cast LFTL as many times as I possibly can in the lategame, mostly to abuse Worm Harvest or Seismic. In reality, I should probably change it up a bit, but I've never had real problems with it. Wasteland locks are mitigated by the fact that I can LftL about as fast as they can wasteland. It sucks to have to do this, but eventually you end up with some artifact/enchantment removal, and a wasteland for their Ruins, and at that point you waste the ruins and blow the crucible on your turn so that they can't keep waste lock going. It's tedious, but most of the decks that have a wastelock aren't really going for the fast earlygame pressure, so you're fairly free to biuld until they hit the lock.

I can see your points. Your version relies more on the synergy than mine does and it seems like that it kills a little faster (you're killing your opponents, mine scoop :P). I prefer the more controllish non-synergetical route in the first few turn to totally shut down my opponent and fight against hate. Also, with my manabase I haven't got any problems casting LftL 2-3 times per round in the lategame. I'm not running any Taigas because I need more double B than you do and because of the fact that I'm just running three cards in the MB which need one G to cast.

@Wasteland-Lock: You're probably right, but if you play against Aggro Loam, it could be really hard for you casting the Dreams or even the Assault if you haven't got a couple of Moxen. I like playing save so I'll keep my Basiclandcount at 5.

Luca_Girolami
11-30-2008, 08:00 PM
I see many builds playing Black. But I don't see much Pernicious Deed (that I believe is better than Engineered Explosives), Duress and Thoughtseize.

In my area many people run them, respectively (main/side) 3/1, 3/1, 4/0.

leander?
12-01-2008, 05:05 AM
I don't see much Pernicious Deed, Duress and Thoughtseize.

They all suck with Chalice of the Void. Deed will destroy all your chalices ánd moxen, duress/thoughtseize will be countered by a Chalice@1

Brot_Ohne_Kruste
12-01-2008, 12:16 PM
I see many builds playing Black. But I don't see much Pernicious Deed (that I believe is better than Engineered Explosives), Duress and Thoughtseize.

In my area many people run them, respectively (main/side) 3/1, 3/1, 4/0.

I think the deck you mean is Aggro Loam. The deck in the thread is an other deck, it plays very different.


They all suck with Chalice of the Void. Deed will destroy all your chalices ánd moxen, duress/thoughtseize will be countered by a Chalice@1

Actually I'm not playing Chalice anymore because it was really bad. It hasn't done anything, so I cutted it. At the moment I'm running a slightly different list; now I'm testing 3 Crime / Punishment in the main as the only massremoval, but I haven't too many results yet.

Swing4Five
12-01-2008, 12:26 PM
I was trying to develop a very similar deck back in August, but I didn't jump full fledged into the Control apsect of the deck, which ended up with me leaving me with one foot still in traditional Aggro Loam build, which I eventually reverted to.

I'm glad you kept on this, you definately picked up on some things I missed and have re-sparked my interest in the deck.


My testing of this deck has said the exact opposite thing. In some cases it feels like the deck is built simply to properly abuse this card.
/agree


I fail completely to see how my list loses to crypt more than yours does...
He was comparing this vs. standard Aggro Loam, not his list vs. yours.


Yea, sensei's and Chalice have uber nega-synergy. I really like the tops and the CotV main, however, so I keep them in. I feel this is the weakest part of my build so far.

The previously mentioned Sylvan Library does basically the same thing top does for you each turn for free, while allowing another (expensive) option of drawing an extra card, has nice synergy with Dredge (the way it's worded you can dredge and it doesn't cost you the life), and dodges your Chalices.

Here's my take on a list:
Lands (25)
4 Wasteland
3 Barren Moor
2 Forgotten Cave
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Tiaga
2 Bayou
2 Badlands
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain

Engine (15)
4 Mox Diamond
3 LFTL
4 Burning Wish
2 Sylvan Library
2 Recoup

Control (16)
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
3 Devastating Dreams

Win (4)
1 Worm Harvest
1 Gigapede
2 Seismic Assault (doubles as control)

Sideboard (15)
1 LftL
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Crime/Punishment
1 Shattering Spree
1 Reverant Silence
1 Chainer's Edict
3 Krosan Grip
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Serum Powder

An Alternate Sideboard Plan(15)
1 LftL
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Shattering Spree
1 Reverant Silence
1 Morningtide
2 Withering Wretch
1 Chrome Mox
2 Plateau
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Ethersworn Canonist

leander?
01-14-2009, 10:21 AM
With an average converted manacost of 0.8, did anyone considered playing Ad Nauseam as a 1 or 2 of? You should be able to pay 3BB and about ten life EOT to draw 12.5 cards and win the game.

wolfstorm
01-14-2009, 06:33 PM
With an average converted manacost of 0.8, did anyone considered playing Ad Nauseam as a 1 or 2 of? You should be able to pay 3BB and about ten life EOT to draw 12.5 cards and win the game.

It would be hard to find considering its a instant if anything.

chokin
01-15-2009, 03:34 AM
It would be hard to find considering its a instant if anything.

Volrath's Stronghold+Cycling Lands+Loam+Eternal Witness. Totally doable.

If you dredge shit up, Witness it back. If you dredge Witness, Stronghold it back.

Phoenix Ignition
01-15-2009, 04:03 AM
Volrath's Stronghold+Cycling Lands+Loam+Eternal Witness. Totally doable.

If you dredge shit up, Witness it back. If you dredge Witness, Stronghold it back.

But how often does this actually happen. You have to dredge up both of your cards that you run 1 of. It's like playing 2 land belcher, generally you aren't going to find either of those cards in the first 20 cards, and even if you do find one of them, on average it will take another 20-some cards before you find the other piece. It would take so long to get this "combo" that it just really isn't worth it. Not to mention it is a 3 card combo that doesn't cause an instant win (or even a significant change in game state necessarily).

georgjorge
01-15-2009, 06:44 PM
The wishboard needs Tsunami or Boil(ing Seas ? I don't know, there are two versions and only one of them is a sorcery).

Also, why not Sylvan Library instead of Top to avoid the Chalice dis-sinergy ? You stated that it cost you too much life, but you can actually choose not to pay it and just use it like Top.

Other random ideas...

- Death Cloud (I don't know how much mana you usually have in the midgame, but double Smallpox in one card for five mana seems fine).

- The Abyss. I love this card in a meta with so many big creatures, though it can't get Nought and 'Goose. But it DOES get 'Stalker, Goyf, 'Vore, Crusher, Confidant, Angel, and all of the creatures in Faerie Stompy and Dragon Stompy. Sideboard material, probably.

- Exploration. Has some-one mentioned this already ? Incredible with Loam, allowing you to cycle through the deck AND play spells. Helps Recoup (and Death Cloud ; ) ).

rsaunder
01-15-2009, 07:55 PM
Boil is an instant, so it's sub-par in a wish-board. Tsunami or boiling seas should work.

leander?
01-16-2009, 07:02 AM
You will have to notice that Boiling Seas can be REB'ed/Hydroblasted, while Tsunami can't.

Therefore: Boil < Boiling Seas < Tsunami :wink: