[Deck] Turboland - New thread, greatly improved. [Archive]

10-17-2005, 03:11 PM

I could've returned to the original thread for this, but it's too old, so a new one was necessary. For reference though, here is the old thread:

Turboland (http://mtgthesource.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1154)

The only reason I actually link that thread is because it does have some good discussion in it. The list, however, was horrendous. But since the Big Arse, I've continued to work on the deck, believing it has the ability to perform well in the metagame. From the last few months, along with the great help and extensive work from Adam Barnello aka Mr. Nightmare, we've developed a list that solved any problem from the original list's weaknesses, and has a better Goblin matchup. The matchup is really swingy, greatly depending on who gets to go first, but none-the-less, not bad. After my performance at the Rochester GPT going 4-1-1, and Adam going 4-2(both of which reports are to follow), I think a contender sits here.

Turboland 2.0

4 Exploration
3 Horn of Greed
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Brainstorm
2 Impulse
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Constant Mists
2 Hail Storm
1 Upheaval
2 Time Warp
2 Gaea's Blessing

4 Tropical Island
5 Island
3 Forest
3 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds

Sideboard:
3 Zuran Orb
3 Troll Ascetic
1 Capsize
1 Hail Storm
1 Gaea's Blessing
2 Damping Matrix
2 Naturalize
2 Stifle

As you can tell between this list and the old one, the changes are drastic. I'll go through them individually.

Removed:

Meloku/Masticore: Creatures were nice in this deck to be able to provide defense, as well as a quicker win. However, I've come to the realization that I don't care about creatures, because if I have infinate turns, Factory does the job just fine. These were basically wasted slots.

Mana Leak: Most aggro decks these days play Aether Vial. Goblins also consists of like 1/3 of the field. That makes countermagic shit the bed. Instead of useless counter, we replaced this with green removal in Hail Storm.

Additions:

Accumulated Knowledge: First, let it be known I'm aware Intuition is not in this deck. No, I don't like Intuition in this deck. But moving on. Tested showed the deck could run out of gas early because it didn't have enough quick card drawing in it. AK gives the small boost it needs early game to start to combo, and the deck will just draw so many cards that the AK's flow into each other.

Hail Storm: Instant speed Pyroclasm anyone? Constantly you see Goblin players(as well as basically any aggro deck) overextend their hands and then walk right into this. It's freaking incredible. Also allows you to take down bigger creatures if you throw a Factory in front of it too.

3rd Forest: When we added Hail Storm to the maindeck, another basic forest was necessary to increase the odds of getting GG by turn 3. Eh, it works :p

Sideboard additions:

Damping Matrix: The best card in the sideboard. The sole reason Goblins was beating this deck was because it could get around Mistlock by vialing out Sharpshooter and SGC. Damping Matrix shuts all that off, and then hits Time Vault, Belcher decks, Survival decks, Tormod's Crypt, Phyrexian Furnace, Affinity decks, etc. It's the tits.

Hail Storm: an additional one from the board to fight aggro.

Stifle: Flexible card that hits half of Goblins triggers, Brain Freeze, fetches, Decree, etc. Awesomez

Troll Ascetic: The freaking house. Control decks sideboard out their Wrath of Gods and such in this matchup, then it leads the way for you to just get a quick house to bash their face in, which is a lot easier than trying to win through Time Warp.

Capsize: There was a slot in the board left, and we wanted something to get rid of Meddling Mage, and Capsize fit perfectly.

I would post the matchup analysis again, but you can read them in the other thread. I'll note the changes though:

Goblins: You play Pyroclasm now. And shutoff Vial and pingers. Awesome.

Landstill/other crappy control decks: Troll Ascetic rockzzzz. Stifle is cool too. Blessing also gives you more card advantage and counter. You also run more card draw.

Those are the only relevant matchups, as all other decks just flatout suck. Solidarity is a freaking joke to play against. Monowhite control? lol. Seriously, there are too many decks that just do nothing relevant to this deck, and you punish them for it.

Nightmare

10-17-2005, 03:18 PM

I had this written up before, and then talked to Di, who was also writing a new thread. I’ve also gotten PMs about the deck, so thought I would write my report out. I added my thoughts on the new cards, although they are basically the same as above.

Card Discussion
AK over Mana Leak and the 4th Horn – So savage. It gets you 4 more spells to pitch to FoW at worst, and draws insane amounts of cards. I know what you’re thinking – But you don’t run Intuition… wait, could we run Intuition? No. Intuition is bad in this deck. But AK is amazing. (edit - I wrote this 4 hours before Caulyn did) When you can Blessing back AK’s 3 and 4 and use them as Ancestrals over and over again, the engine is fine as is. There have been a couple times (read: 2) when I wished I had a Mana Leak, but those were when I had Counterspell and only 1 Blue source, not when it was an AK.

Number of Impulse/Brainstorm – Although I would love to say that we could fit in sets of each, three Brainstorm isn’t unheard of. I was running 3/3, but I cut the third Impulse for the fifth Island, and haven’t looked back since.

Constant Mists has become a proven stall tactic against Aggro Matchups, and if you can keep Crucible on the table, just wins against many Aggro decks.

Where Constant Mists sucks, Hail Storm OWNS FACE. Now that the tech is out, people won’t be walking into it as much, but man, so many a goblin hoard has gotten smashed by a card they’ve never seen before. Green Wrath, as we’ve begun to call it, is best as a surprise factor, but the 1GG cost is prohibitive. We considered Propaganda in its place, and it’s still not a bad call if you don’t like the double green. As a bonus, Propaganda is blue.

Time Warp and the Meddling Mage question. If Meddling Mage scares you, then find a place that sells Portal 2 and P3K cards, and pick up Temporal Manipulation ($10 – 15) and or Capture of Jingzhou ($30ish). Both are identical reprints of Time Warp and are not named Time Warp. Not legal until Friday though.

Troll – What does Landstill do against turn 2 Troll when they side out the “dead” Wraths? Scoops. Turns out, so do a lot of decks. He shores up a lot of matchups, and shines when there are Vedalken Shackles on the table.

Damping Matrix – Oh, the look on the face of Goblins when the Matrix has them. Our issue has been when getting them in Mistlock, the Sharpshooter and Siege Gang Shenanigans can still torch you out. This puts a stopper on that, and Shuts off Vial to boot! There are a slew of other important cards this turns off for other decks, but very few for you. In fact, self-pumping a Factory is the only thing it hurts. Easily the best innovation we found for the board recently.

Third Gaea’s in the Board – We had 1 slot before the GPT, and I suggested this, and was SO glad I did. It’s so important to have 2 active Gaea’s that having the second one countered is basically GG. To have a third in the face of that possibility is great. Forcing Solidarity to Stroke you out is nice too.

With that, on to the trial.

Night before the trial, Di and I decided it would be a good idea to stay up until 4 am testing the mirror, and discussing SB strategies in TeenieBopper’s living room. It was great, until 8:30 rolled around and we had no sleep. On the road we go.

Dunkin Donuts on the thruway is the savage tech, for real. We picked up breakfast and coffee and were caffeinated enough to make it through the day.

Once we got there, I picked up some new pink sleeves, leant my other ones to BigBear, and sat down for round one, against Nick Wowelko, who I play like every week. Way to drive an hour to play a local. He’s playing Goblins with Bolt, and goes nuts on my face game 1, like Goblins is want to do. Game 2 I get turn 2 Matrix, turn 4 Mistlock with Horn, but because Nick didn’t see me combo first game, he makes me go through the motions. Game three, I stabilize at low life, but he gets a couple beats through and about a turn or two before I can combo @ 1 life, he finds a Fanatic to fling at my head. Great Start to the Tourney.
Record: 0-1

Round 2 – Jack Black (saxking93)

After Round 1 I talked to Di, and he said he beat MBC with Withered Wretch. I thought maybe this was the guy when I saw turn 1 Swamp, but it wasn’t. Wasteland hit Coffers, and he didn’t see much but dead removal and land game 1, but even though he drained me for 7, I went infinite and won game 1. Game 2: See game 1, but this time I read Chains, said – wait, I have to discard every time I play a land? Fuck that. And countered it. 2 – 0. Note: Damping Matrix >>>>>> O-stone and Staff.
Record: 1-1

Round 3 – Mono Black Control (Kevin something, unregged?)

Well, this time I did get to play Di’s round 1 opponent. Game 1 I play forest, Exploration, Island and the kid just sighs. What luck for him to get set up vs. us both. I fight through 3 back to back Hymns thanks to savage luck on my part, and Gaea’s not getting hit, and Horn of Greed takes the MVP. Game 2 sucked. He Haunting Echoes’d early, hitting: Force of Will, Counterspell, AK, Impulse. What the fuck. Then he goes Wretch, Wretch. It looks bad for me. I get 1 Blessing removed with a Wretch, and this game is where the SB Blessing really shined. I managed to get him to tap out, and then took every turn for the rest of the game. Hard fought battle, and a really nice kid. 2 – 0
Record: 2-1

Round 4 – NQG (Don’t remember, someone tell me and I’ll edit this)

Game 1, I got the nuts vs. Gro. Turn 1 Exploration, Waste. Turn 2 Crucible. He draws no land for 5 turns, I cast Time Warp with a couple Explorations and Horn on the table, he scoops. Game 2 is much worse for me, as I get stuck on 3 land and he’s beating my face in with Mongooses (Mongeese?). Game 3, I get the nuts again. My opening hand has Trop, Stifle, Stifle, Island, Fetch, Crucible, Capsize. He gets an early Meddling Mage naming Time Warp (Portal needs to be legal!!) and draws a whole bunch of cards, looking for that third land. He finds some Fetches and I stifle them. I get six land and Capsize Mage end of turn. On my turn I rip Waste for the Tundra so he can’t replay Mage, and proceed to take the rest of the turns. Sitting next to me was Di, who took all 5 of the turns for time in round (with lethal damage on the table, and not going infinite) for the 1-0 win vs. Wastedlife.
Record: 3-1

Round 5 – Vial Gobs (Teeniebopper)

Before the match, I asked for the ID, since he was 3-1 also and we could both make it (so we thought) at 4-1-1. He wanted to be guaranteed top 8, which I understood, so did I, so we had to play it. We got deck checked, but no losses to either of us. Game 1 sucked ass. Turn 1 Lackey. Turn 2, swing Lackey, drop Kiki-Jiki. After EOT triggers on my turn, copy Lackey. Copy Lackey. Swing with 3 Lackeys. Drop Ringleader into SGC. Drop SGC, Drop Warchief. Play Piledriver. I’m staring at the Hail Storm in my hand, and the two Islands in play on my side… Game 2 was a little less retarded, but still pretty bad. Mike is a good Goblins player. I wanted the draw bad.
Record: 3-2

Round 6 – Garv (Garv)

I tested this matchup with GetSickAndDie, who plays Wasteland in his build, and dropped White. That was really bad for me. Garv hasn’t done that. Game 1 he mulls bad, and gets off to a slow start with me having Mistlock. I win before he can burn me out. Game 2 he goes nuts and wins with Mongrel, Monkey, and Troll. Game 3 I have won. There’s ten Minutes left, and I have Mistlock with Damping Matrix, and although I’m at 6 at one point, I gained some life from Zorb before I dropped matrix. Because of Matrix, I can swing into his dudes with one Factory, pump with the others, and take his guys out one at a time, since he can’t regenerate Troll. He would eventually run out of enough cards to keep Mongrel alive, and I would get through unblocked. Because he’s Garv, he wanted to draw it out rather than go 3-3 on the day, so I had to fast play to get the damage through. I eventually did, but he was an ass about it, for sure. It’s ok though, because the ride home was hilarious.
Final record: 4-2

So Goblins still suck, and Damping Matrix is awesome. I don’t think I’ll be playing Turboland in Philly, but if you do, I’d recommend serious testing of Propaganda vs. Hail Storm. One is a permanent solution, the other slows them down a ton.

Props: Millennium for hosting, Mike for the ride and FTW, Dunkin Donuts coffee, Syracuse for representing with the Pink sleeves and the top 2, Jim for actually running “Party Like it’s 1999,” his 99 card zoo deck that’s as consistent as a 60 card one. All of my opponents, I had a ton of fun, more than I’ve had at a tournament in a long ass time.

Slops: Kadilak. Little Green men. Naturalize, for not being sided in 1 time the whole day. Suppression Field, for not being legal yet. My alarm clock, for not waking me up until 15 minutes before work this morning. Wastedlife, for keeping Turboland out of the top 8 (why did you drop?). Mike’s toilet, for having pee in it every time I wanted to use it.

Ridiculous Hat

10-17-2005, 03:24 PM

Well, gentlemen, it looks extremely interesting and it looks like you've put a lot of time into it. What are your matchups like for the major decks? (goblins, landstill, solidarity, rgsa, gro, wombat, burn, anything else that i've missed)

If you actually read my post, you'd know where to find that. I'll add some stuff after I get out of class. -Di

frogboy

10-17-2005, 09:27 PM

Why aren't you playing 2 Oboros? I did some brief testing with this and wanted to draw it every single game as soon as possible. It's so insane it's not funny.

Zilla

10-17-2005, 09:32 PM

Question... you mentioned that Damping Matrix was MVP and then made a long list of cards that Pithing Needle shuts down just as effectively for a third of the cost, while being more versatile against other threats as well. Now I recognize that it doesn't shut down every thing in a given deck, but honestly, how often is it truly necessary to shut down more than a single threat in the race to survive until you combo off?

The question isn't rhetorical, but I postulate that aside from Ravager and possibly Goblins, you rarely need to disable more than one opposing threat. Am I wrong?

The Professional N00b

10-17-2005, 09:49 PM

I noticed a lack of Daze, did you just find it useless in most matchups? It seems like it'd be pretty good with Exploration and Horn. I would just like to see it tested because it seems like it'd be pretty decent, as a first turn counter for the Lackey or Aether Vial.

10-17-2005, 10:15 PM

Why aren't you playing 2 Oboros? I did some brief testing with this and wanted to draw it every single game as soon as possible. It's so insane it's not funny.

Because running 25 land with Horn of Greed between Crucible, AK, Impulse, and Brainstorm essentially doesn't make you miss a landdrop every game. Oboro is the clutch slot you have in the sinarios that you won't have more lands. I dislike the fact that it's nonbasic(yes, I know you can bounce it derf, but situations where you tap out with it can happen), and generally that I can't fetch it with fetchlands. Fetchlands play such a crutial role in the deck(yet more will hurt the deck) that another land that can't be grabbed hurts. Oh yeah, it's stupidly legendary. If I saw multiples of them early, I'd choke a bitch.

Question... you mentioned that Damping Matrix was MVP and then made a long list of cards that Pithing Needle shuts down just as effectively for a third of the cost, while being more versatile against other threats as well. Now I recognize that it doesn't shut down every thing in a given deck, but honestly, how often is it truly necessary to shut down more than a single threat in the race to survive until you combo off?

The question isn't rhetorical, but I postulate that aside from Ravager and possibly Goblins, you rarely need to disable more than one opposing threat. Am I wrong?

Damping Matrix is the strongest card in the sideboard against Goblins. This is because Goblins was beating this deck with last few points of Sharpshooter and SGC pingings, both creatures that were obviously vialed out. Originally the card was just exclusively for Goblins because we wanted to create effeciency in cards while minimizing the numbers of slots and cards drawn. If I was going to run Needle, it'd have to be a 3 or 4of, and I'd need to draw multiples in order to fully protect myself. "Woot, my Needle just shutdown your Vial. Shit, I now stare at Sharpshooter, SGC, Kiki-Jiki, and Mogg Fanatic. Scoop.

Damping Matrix also randomly nukes Survival decks too, while not hitting Survival itself, taking care of Zealot, Ranger, Tradewind, etc whatever at the same time is cool.

I noticed a lack of Daze, did you just find it useless in most matchups? It seems like it'd be pretty good with Exploration and Horn. I would just like to see it tested because it seems like it'd be pretty decent, as a first turn counter for the Lackey or Aether Vial.

Never actually tested Daze. It does seem like a good idea though, so I'll give it a shot. Only problem is there are literally 0 cards I plan on moving from the maindeck right now. Daze would essentially replace Hail Storm, because if Lackey is countered then the rush is going to be a lot slower, freeing up some time to search for Mistlock, but Hail Storm nukes all aggro decks and isn't useless after like turn 3.

Ridiculous Hat

10-17-2005, 10:28 PM

I read your post and noticed the link to the previous list, but you yourself advocated that the previous list was "terrible". Should I take that to indicate that your non-goblin matchups have not changed or was the previous list truly awful enough that everything has been shored up?

10-17-2005, 10:47 PM

I'll admit the original list was terrible, but most of it is still there, so most of the aspects of the matchup still applies to the list currently. The only difference is the matchups are better, because you have a stronger manabase, more and better hate cards, faster draw to combo out faster, and the ability to actually kill creatures. I explained all the new sideboard choices, so you just need to apply them to the matchups.

Citrus-God

10-17-2005, 11:00 PM

The Professional N00b

10-17-2005, 11:16 PM

That is a good idea, but the fact that Crucible is only good when you have it as a one of in your hand or on the board. You've got enough dig in the deck that you don't need more than 3 in the deck. Because eventually it'll lead into a dead draw if you already have one on the board, or in your hand. As of now, 3 seems like the correct number for this deck.

10-17-2005, 11:36 PM

Nice, I think I like this build a lot more than the other one actually. Trolls were a good idea.

And I was thinking, that deck has so much Draw Power, why not just add a 61th card? That slot could be 4th Crucible, because, IMO, that if your going to rely on Crucible on early game, you might as well add it in, just so you can keep drawng it...

There are already are 61 cards. 25 lands + 36 spells= 61. Plus a 4th Crucible wouldn't be worth it. When this deck goes off, it often draws into useless multiples of them. I do occasionally board one out because they are annoying as hell to see in multiples.

Obfuscate Freely

10-17-2005, 11:37 PM

Troll over Gigapede? As a control-hate slot?

Accumulated Knowledge: Tested showed the deck could run out of gas early because it didn't have enough quick card drawing in it. AK gives the small boost it needs early game to start to combo, and the deck will just draw so many cards that the AK's flow into each other.

AK is terrible at giving you a small early-game boost in cards. Brainstorm, Serum Visions, Impulse, etc. are much better. If you justify AK by saying that the combo will draw you into multiples, it sounds like win-more. Have you tested Compulsive Research?

For a deck based around card interactions, this list is just as ugly (as in, lots of 2s and 3s) as the old one.

The Professional N00b

10-17-2005, 11:55 PM

Yeah I really like the idea of Gigapeade. Recurable beats seem really good. If you are looking for extra draw, you could look at Compulsion, it's out there, but it might do well. Pitch your dead cards, such as an Extra Crucible, AK, you could pitch Gigapeade, and extra land after you run out of Explored lands.
It's just a thought though.

10-18-2005, 12:04 AM

Troll over Gigapede? As a control-hate slot?

The fact that Troll regenerates and is a lot quicker is huge reasoning. Gigapede isn't something that I want to cast every turn because it gets chumped. Troll gets through all defenses same as Gigapede, but starts a lot earlier. Plus, it's decent against Gro too, blocking every creature sans threshold Mystic Enforcer. Gigapede is too costly in a deck that also wants to cast bad 3UU sorceries on their turn too.

AK is terrible at giving you a small early-game boost in cards. Brainstorm, Serum Visions, Impulse, etc. are much better. If you justify AK by saying that the combo will draw you into multiples, it sounds like win-more. Have you tested Compulsive Research?

I failed to mention this in my original analysis of AK, but it's most important function is that is greatly lightens the burden on Horn of Greed. The original list was incredibly dependant on Horn of Greed, and if it was named by Meddling Mage, countered, or destroyed, it sucked. I've won plenty of games without Horn, simply by casting AK for 3 then shuffling it back with Gaea's Blessing. I'll admit it isn't great advantage early game, but it still digs down for the early game at least helping search for pieces, then getting towards the late game it just gives you incredible advantage. I tested Visions, more Brainstorms, and more Impulses, but I went with AK because I had 4 slots open and wanted a card that would give good advantage both early and lategame. Although Impulse fulfills this role rather well for both early and lategame, it isn't as amazing as AK recursion when you're running without a Horn. Running them together makes the deck run very smoothly. My testing and performance with the deck can ammend to that. It's one of the cards I definately want to keep.

I haven't looked at Compulsive Research, but won't run it because it just adds onto that 3cc spell on your turn slot. We have enough of those, and I want to play combo pieces with that 3 mana, so Research is too slow.

For a deck based around card interactions, this list is just as ugly (as in, lots of 2s and 3s) as the old one.

Ew, I know. Having 3ofs isn't bad at all in a blue deck by any means, but I'll admit the 2ofs are ugly. Problem is, you basically have to run 2of each of the shitty cards being Time Warp and Blessing, as you want enough to draw for the mid-to-late game, yet not open them often. 2 Constant Mists and 2 Hail Storm because I decided 4 slots would be dedicated to aggro(due to room), and I wanted both the option of the lock and WoG effect. With the card drawing in the deck, they come when I need them in the midgame, and opening them isn't a bad thing. I only run 2 Impulse because that's all the room I have left in the deck. I don't remember what I cut the 3rd Impulse for, but Mr. Nightmare's list before we ran identical lists ran it over the 25th land, but then switched it for the land, and likes it a lot more.

Eh, even though there are a good amount of 2ofs, most of them are the cards that you won't want to open but want midgame, so I feel the ratio between them fits right.

Obfuscate Freely

10-18-2005, 12:15 AM

10-18-2005, 12:45 AM

Yeah, I realize the Time Warp and Blessing counts are what they have to be. It was more the Mists/Hail Storm that stuck out. It seems like one should be better than the other, and so you should choose. Or, if you want to have either option open in most games, you should up the counts of both.

If there was space in the deck, I would definately run more Mists and Hail Storm in the maindeck, but there really isn't enough room. I know I should choose one or the other, but one of them is good in situations that the other isn't, and vice versa. Hail Storm isn't going to do anything against an army of Baloths and Kird Apes and Wild Mongrel, when Constant Mists can, yet Constant Mists isn't playable until you have either a significant amount of lands without Crucible in play, or you have Crucible in play. There are too many situations where only one of them would be bad for the deck, so it's important to have both of them.

If I replaced any of the card draw, it would be for better card draw, same for everything else in the deck. And I still won't cut Upheaval, it's the only way to remove problems that hit the board.

Your reasoning for Troll and AK makes sense, as does your reasoning against Gigapede and Research. However, I still doubt AK; this deck has more problems in the early-game than it does in the late-game. I also question whether the decreased reliance on Horn means you shouldn't run 4.

I'll admit AK isn't that solid early game, but it gives you just enough boost to make the difference, because it digs in the early game allowing your mid-game to go faster. The decreased reliance on Horn is only partially the reason we don't run 4. The other part of the reason is because I cut my 4th Horn for the 25th land. It was either 24 land and 4 Horns, or 25 land and 3(Mr. Nightmare's list was a few cards different from my own until yesterday). I decided I'd rather have the more consistant manabase than the 4 Horns, and since I added 4 more cards to find Horn, it seemed to work out in the end.

I still know the early game problems can be difficult, which is why I still seek options to solidify the early game. Against Goblins, Moment's Peace isn't terrible for negating Lackey turns 2 and 3, but I question if it is too much to run of the Fog effects. I only target Goblins with this analogy though, because it's the only deck in the format who's early game actually scares me. Honestly, I feel confident going into every matchup except Vial Goblins and 2-land Belcher(which isn't viable, meh). Although Vial Goblins is the most popular deck, your matchup is still 45/55 their favor to 50/50, and with the confidence I have against the rest of the field, I still think it's a great choice.

Don Juan-Suave

10-18-2005, 03:29 AM

I tested the deck for 7 hours. It is a bit complicated to play; very different from aggro or aggro-control. I feel the deck is control-combo, although it is on the slow side. In my testing however, I have combo the nuts as "early" as turn 6. Upheaval is a very good board reset, especially when the opponent is has too much on the board for me to handle. I think going with the AK's is the right choice, although the deck is still fairly reliant on Horn of Greed. As stated before, the early games could use improvement. Pre-sideboard, this deck has a hard time against burn or even burn-based aggro. Is Zuran Orb enough post-sideboard?

anonymos

10-18-2005, 08:32 AM

brought from the other post

Solidarity: They need to get around 11 counter and maindeck Blessings. Possible? Of course. Easy? Not really. As long as you don't play stupid and counter the right spells, it's simple to pull out a win. This matchup is a lot harder than the rest of the best decks, but they give you time to gather what you need.

so the plan is:
+1 blessing
+3 trolls
+2 stifles

for
-2 mists
-2 hail storm
-1 upheaval
-1 something

I'm a big solidarity fan. THAT seems really nasty. Game one seems like it'll be interesting if I can be patient, but with that coming in, I don't have the time to wait. Looks like something to test with. I'm glad to see Teeniebopper is not liking the match from the goblin perspective. He was a solid player back when I worked in Mechanicville. Hail Storm! What can I say about that? I was looking for a good alternative to pyroclasm. I was tempted to splash red for it becuase our testing showed it missing just a little v. goblins. We tested a third constant mists. That also works fair.

Anonymos
USS Nimitz

Nightmare

10-18-2005, 08:40 AM

I wanted to respond to a few posts as well, bear with me, I have a working man's hours.

@ Troll vs. Gigapede - The reason we chose Troll in the first place is due to it's possibility of hitting turn 2 vs. control, with potential FoW backup. Gigapede is 2 - 3 turns slower than that, even if his 6/1 body is more powerful. If you test for a while, you'll see that after the first 3 to 4 turns, this deck uses every mana it can, every turn it has, and 3GG(and a card) when you only run 3 basic Forest and Trops is too much to pay every turn.

AK is terrible at giving you a small early-game boost in cards. Brainstorm, Serum Visions, Impulse, etc. are much better. If you justify AK by saying that the combo will draw you into multiples, it sounds like win-more. Have you tested Compulsive Research?For a very long time, I was adamant against cutting the third Impulse. It took me watching Di play next to me when testing, and seeing the number of times I got mana screwed vs. him getting mana screwed to see how much difference that 1 land makes. I would still run the third if it fit. I have tested with Research, but it still says "Sorcery" and still sucks because of it. AK is bad early, yes, but its only bad the first time you cast it. Usually that happens EOT and only if I haven't needed to counter anything that turn, so it basically doesn't suck that bad. In that same situation (happens like 90% of the time) Serum Visions would be strictly worse, since it would leave me without Counterspell mana open. As for the fourth Horn, if it wasn't symmetrical, or if it said "May" draw a card, I'd go back to four in a second. I would cut Impulse and go up to 4 Horn, 4 Brainstorm. But it doesn't. And you never really want to combo with more than 2 on the table anyway, becaus it gets dangerous to play land. At the GPT, I ran into a situation where I needed to combo while recuring Factory every turn to swing in and kill blockers 1 at a time. With more than 2 Horns, you could get yourself in Math Trouble.

@ Burn - It's an issue. Pre-board, you're pretty much screwed unledd you combo ASAP. Post Board, Orb is the nuts, and if you have it, all you need to watch for is Sulfuric Vortex and Pithing Needle. You also bring in Troll, and he speeds the clock up a ton. We didn't really expect to see a lot of burn on Sunday, so we didn't board for it, but if it's a concern I suggest fitting Chill in the Board. When I took t4 at Amrod's a few weekends ago, I beat burn in top 8. Chill is a house against them.

Keep testing, I'm excited to see the interest pick up!

scrumdogg

10-18-2005, 10:38 AM

My major concern with Hail Storm is that Goblins has access to Port and Wasteland. They may get hammered once, but how do you get and keep open GG1 consistently when they concentrate on shutting that down? It seems like they would follow the same plan they have for Landstill, drop what threats they can (usually by cheating...) and keep the control player off double W/G until death occurs. In your case they can even swing in when you have GG again...with a selected force, leaving a reserve back for next turn.

10-18-2005, 12:21 PM

As stated before, the early games could use improvement. Pre-sideboard, this deck has a hard time against burn or even burn-based aggro. Is Zuran Orb enough post-sideboard?

Burn is a difficult matchup, but I still believe it's easier than Vial Goblins. Pre-board it's tough, but they can run out of gas quickly, and you can counter some stuff and combo out, as they have no disruption to slow ou down. Post-board Zuran Orb is insane, especially with Crucible of Worlds. Orb will almost always give you enough life to find combo pieces and go nuts.

@ Solidarity

We don't have 11 counters anymore, but we still have 8 counter, 3 Blessing, and 2 Stifle post-board. Oh yeah, Troll Ascetic and Mishra's Factory are still clocks. It's literally one of my favorite matchups. I also board in Capsize for the matchup, because the possibility to bounce their lands end of turn really hinders them in going off.

My major concern with Hail Storm is that Goblins has access to Port and Wasteland. They may get hammered once, but how do you get and keep open GG1 consistently when they concentrate on shutting that down? It seems like they would follow the same plan they have for Landstill, drop what threats they can (usually by cheating...) and keep the control player off double W/G until death occurs. In your case they can even swing in when you have GG again...with a selected force, leaving a reserve back for next turn.

We're well aware of this, which is another reason why we added the 3rd Basic Forest into the deck. There isn't a great chance you're going to cast it turn 3, but by turn 4-5 when they have an army, you'll have enough lands in play to evade the mana disruption they put on you. However, we also have Constant Mists as well, so if they try to shut us off of GG, we can still have the option of using Mists.

The Professional N00b

10-18-2005, 04:27 PM

Slay

10-18-2005, 05:37 PM

While Gigapede can take down a bear, it has to be recurred next turn, where it would get countered and they'd lay down more beats and win. There's also that whole 5cc thing. That means that the bear could get in as many as 2 4/4 hits before you're even able to play a blocker without counterspell mana and in Daze range. If oyu play Gigapede instead of Troll, you'll be forced to counter the creatures, instead of laying down a early blocker and saving your counters for their counters when you combo out.
-Slay

10-18-2005, 11:51 PM

About Troll vs. Gigapeade, you're saying that you'd block a Werebear all day? Doesn't Gigapeade take down the Bears? It just seems like taking them down other than keeping them on the table would be better whether or not the Troll is faster, it's the 6/1 body that takes down the Gro creatures, not the 3/2.

You also forget about Factory. That can block too, then come back via Crucible. The fact that you have to waste 5 mana a turn on it is too great of an investment for such a slow creature.

hacksign

10-19-2005, 02:15 AM

I am sorry for this one liner but its a question that I want to ask lets say the opponent has enought creatures to stop all yours and dont make them die or lets say they have infinite tokens or can generate them every turn to stop your creatures, how do you win?

Nightmare

10-19-2005, 08:40 AM

Simple question, simple answer. You go infinite, Upheaval, and then win. It's extremely difficult for your opponent to win when their whole board is sitting dead in their hand.

dad

10-20-2005, 09:18 AM

@Diablo

You seem to have an affinity for decks that I like to play and have some experience with. I like your list except for one thing. In the past, when I played this deck, I found Scroll Rack to almost be essential. It helps in many ways.

Perhaps I missed you mentioning it. Have you tested it? Why was it found insufficient in testing? Theoretical answers don't interest me, results do (this is directed at those that feel compelled to answer on your behalf, but have never played the deck in a tournament). I have played the deck countless times. Does the Legacy meta not support/justify its use (even though it was played so well in the old extended format that is most similar to this one)?

10-20-2005, 02:16 PM

Perhaps I missed you mentioning it. Have you tested it? Why was it found insufficient in testing? Theoretical answers don't interest me, results do (this is directed at those that feel compelled to answer on your behalf, but have never played the deck in a tournament). I have played the deck countless times. Does the Legacy meta not support/justify its use (even though it was played so well in the old extended format that is most similar to this one)?

I've tested and liked Scroll Rack, quite a bit if I may add, and it's definately a possibility that I may run it. When I originally tested it, it was in the Impulse slot, and while it was solid, I ended up using Impulse because I like the EoT instant-speed search it has on the early turns, where you either have to tap out early to cast Rack, or hold back on it. Plus, I always enjoyed how Impulse could be shuffled back with Gaea's Blessing(a play I do quite frequently as a matter of fact), not to mention keeping them in the deck keeps a strong blue count to support Force of Will.

I'm going to give Scroll Rack another shot though, because its ability to dig really deep is great, but its another form of card advantage that the opponent will cast Disenchant on, and it doesn't work under a Damping Matrix. Testing will prove if the deep digging gained from it is worth it though.

juventus

10-20-2005, 04:27 PM

dad

10-20-2005, 04:55 PM

I definitely think Scroll Rack belongs. If you want ideas on your current decklist you can PM me and therefore you can decide when to release any 'tech' that you like.

10-20-2005, 05:11 PM

I'm going to admit that I've never played the deck before, but isn't regrowth good in this deck? It fixes the blessing problem so you don't need to side any in, lets you AK for 4 one more time, and gets back timewarp.

Blessing problem? Blessing is in the sideboard to fight Solidarity, give you three more solid targets back to fight control, and also fight graveyard hate. I like Regrowth, because the idea of immediate Time Warp and friends sounds sexy, but it isn't going to let you go infinate, so Blessing ends up getting the call.

Most people playing against the deck or looking at the deck don't realize Gaea's Blessing is actually the prime win condition in the deck.

I definitely think Scroll Rack belongs. If you want ideas on your current decklist you can PM me and therefore you can decide when to release any 'tech' that you like.

Why don't you just post tech if you have it. I didn't release anything from July-last week because I wanted to surprise the field for the GPT. People know the deck now, but most likely still won't prepare for it anyway. Plus, I still feel the deck works incredibly in its current state. The only, and I mean only, thing I fear with this deck is a turn 1 Lackey. That's unfortunately a problem that you have to open a Force of Will to deal with(Factory will be dealt with easily), but the deck is adapting to fight Goblins. Otherwise, I don't really see all that much more I can currently find to add.

Whit3 Ghost

10-20-2005, 06:26 PM

dad

10-21-2005, 05:09 PM

A long time ago, Chi Kaufman introduced the deck to me. The deck comes from Zvi. After some research and consultation to adapt the deck to Type 1 I was given a decklist. While probably not exact the core of the deck goes like (60 cards):

1 Morphling
1 Weaver
1 Feeder

4 Exploration
4 Horns
4 Oaths
2 Scroll Rack

4 mana drain
4 FoW
4 Gush

1 Black Lotus
1 Ancestral
1 Walk

2 Impulse
2 Gaea's Blessing
1 Timewarp

4 tropical
4 yav. coast
3 treetops
11 islands
1 conclave

Note this is not what I settled on, but Zvi’s template and suggestions were the best place to start IMO. Your deck, to recap, looks like (note 61 cards):

Turboland 2.0

4 Exploration
3 Horn of Greed
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Brainstorm
2 Impulse
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Constant Mists
2 Hail Storm
1 Upheaval
2 Time Warp
2 Gaea's Blessing

4 Tropical Island
5 Island
3 Forest
3 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds

Sideboard:
3 Zuran Orb
3 Troll Ascetic
1 Capsize
1 Hail Storm
1 Gaea's Blessing
2 Damping Matrix
2 Naturalize
2 Stifle

Lets examine your differences from what is at least close to the standard:

-4 Gush/+4 AK
The Gush had to go because it is illegal. There is no comparable replacement. AK may or may not be the right choice, and certainly worth experimenting. My initial reaction is that it is a good choice, but until I sleeve it up, I will with hold judgment.

-4 Oath/?+3 CoW, +1 Upheaval
Legality is also the issue Oath. There is nothing like it to replace it. This means the deck is now very different, perhaps even fundamentally so. At first glance, CoW seems to belong in the deck, but further scrutiny makes me suspicious. CoW, strangely is the card I am currently most likely to test around (What are your thoughts?). I really like the Upheaval though. Nice touch. The Oath issue is very tricky to address because Oath was not simply a win condition or defensive card, but an excellent combo enabler.

-3 creatures, -1Horn of Greed/ +2 Constant Mists, +2 Hailstorm
Without Oath, the creatures may not be necessary. If creatures are, I am sure it would be a different set (although one Morphling may not be bad). The aggressive nature of the format means you must prepare for it and these choices are some of many possibilities.

-2 Scroll Rack, -1 An. Recall, -1 Lotus/ +2 Land, +3 Brainstorm
I will only say that an active Rack means you always draw what you want in this deck. Plus, with the since printed Fetchlands, the card is much stronger.

The criticism of this archetype usually comes in two ways. First, that deck has never been known to win consistently outside the hands of Zvi. I don’t entirely disagree. More important though is that it was always a somewhat fragile deck. Much like Trix, it would win less on its own, than the lack of preparation and familiarity of the opponents. A good deck that is fun to play, with some disruption it is. Time , testing, and results will tell if the fundamental changes to Turboland are too difficult to overcome. If I were to start changes, it would be with Scroll Rack and CoW (I am not saying an exchange mind you). Also, I found the deck worked better with a Red splash, but that was a different meta and the old Turboland.

Anyway, I have to go, so I may finish later.

10-22-2005, 01:26 AM

Legality is also the issue Oath. There is nothing like it to replace it. This means the deck is now very different, perhaps even fundamentally so

This is the greatest case regarding the newer lists of Turboland. We have no Oath. We have no Gush. That alone proves this deck is fundamentaly different. The old list didn't need to run cards like Hail Storm and Constant Mists because they could just drop Oath and oops, look at . We don't have free draw that also has insane synergy with Exploration and Scroll Rack(oooooo Gush+Scroll Rack was hella fun). When you take those out of the deck, the deck needs to be approached in a different manner, which weaves into some of my card choices.

-4 Gush/+4 AK
The Gush had to go because it is illegal. There is no comparable replacement. AK may or may not be the right choice, and certainly worth experimenting. My initial reaction is that it is a good choice, but until I sleeve it up, I will with hold judgment.

As mentioned above, the loss of Gush sucks. It needs a solid replacement, no matter how watered down it is. After reviewing literally all the card draw availible, AK just seemed to fit the best. It was cheap and an instant, and was able to get really retarded after Gaea's Blessing started shuffling them back. I know the first one cast isn't great, but the fact that it's advantage grows enough to out-draw other control decks, it was worth the slot. Words of Wisdom was the 2nd card I debated to use, merely because it draw multiple cards, but then I remembered it was awful. Thirst was also highly in consideration, but it's slow and the artifacts in this deck need to be cast, not discarded.

-4 Oath/?+3 CoW, +1 Upheaval
Legality is also the issue Oath. There is nothing like it to replace it. This means the deck is now very different, perhaps even fundamentally so. At first glance, CoW seems to belong in the deck, but further scrutiny makes me suspicious. CoW, strangely is the card I am currently most likely to test around (What are your thoughts?). I really like the Upheaval though. Nice touch. The Oath issue is very tricky to address because Oath was not simply a win condition or defensive card, but an excellent combo enabler.

Nothing can replace Oath(unless you want to go for some lame Gamekeeper crap), but I believe nothing can replace Crucible of Worlds either. There's a reason I run three of them. It's probably the most important card in this deck, moreso than Horn of Greed and Exploration, and no I'm not kidding. There are so many holes Crucible fixes within the deck that its inclusion is mandatory. Against control matchups, winning the Wasteland war is key. You need to be able to constantly Waste them, or atleast constantly throw basic lands off fetches into play. Combined with Exploration, the control matchup is cake. Crucible also prevents you from missing land drops, a crucial part of the Exploration/Horn combo. In a way, Crucible is more of a replacement for Gush than AK is, because one of Gush's prime functions was to always supply land drops for the deck. Those land drops that you aren't going to miss are mainly from fetchlands, and constant recursion of fetches leads you to draw broken cards. Seriously, it's a good thing when you can drastically manipulate your deck by only playing lands. It's why most control decks play Crucible.

Crucible also makes the aggro matchup a whole lot easier. It allows you to replay Factory every turn to provide a blocker, and more importantly, it makes the busted-as-hell Constant Mists playable. The ability to fog [i]every turn with nearly no loss of tempo is incredible. Plus, the Mistlock wins the game against every single creature-oriented aggro deck in the format(Of course there are ways around it, but you get the point).

Upheaval is an awkward slot. Originally it was one of the cards the deck feared most as a Psychatog was about to hit play afterwards, and now I've utilized it in the same philosophy to work towards our advantage. That advantage is tremendous. Not as stupid as Psychatog, but when the board is reset and you're dropping lands at a ratio of 2-5:1 to the opponent, you don't lose the game.

-3 creatures, -1Horn of Greed/ +2 Constant Mists, +2 Hailstorm
Without Oath, the creatures may not be necessary. If creatures are, I am sure it would be a different set (although one Morphling may not be bad). The aggressive nature of the format means you must prepare for it and these choices are some of many possibilities.

I already explained why I removed the creatures, so read over the beginning post of the thread to catch it. But for those too stupid/lazy, it basically came down to creatures being too slow and useless, so they were obsolete. Plus, the way I designed the deck was an extreme focus on Time Warp/Gaea's Blessing. That combo is the true win condition of the list. Creatures make that win a little bit faster, but when you have infinate turns, a faster kill isn't necessary. Also, creatures don't do shit against Goblins. You play them like turn 4. Oops, you died turn 4. This is why instead of focusing on your creatures, you focus on the opponent's. Keeping the opponent's army in check long enough to combo is important to the deck's gameplan, and Hail Storm and Constant Mists do a damn good job at keeping aggro decks in check.

-2 Scroll Rack, -1 An. Recall, -1 Lotus/ +2 Land, +3 Brainstorm
I will only say that an active Rack means you always draw what you want in this deck. Plus, with the since printed Fetchlands, the card is much stronger.

I've been testing Scroll Rack extensively for the last few days, and its power is quite impressive. However, I still favor Impulse. I'm not going to list the pros and cons between them, because I believe you already understand them, but Scroll Rack has been weaker in quite a few situations, the biggest including:

-Early fodder for Force of Will. The deck has a healthy amount of blue cards, but Time Warp and Upheaval are cards I really dislike pitching, as is AK to a lesser degree.

-Digging turn 2. EoT Impulse on turn 2 can find that 3rd land, Horn, Force of Will, Exploration, Crucible, the list goes on. This increases the speed of the deck in finding its combo pieces and going off.

-Topdeck mode. Scroll Rack is utter crap when you have nothing in hand, where a topdecked Impulse is in most cases really good. It also sucks when you don't have the ability to shuffle crap away from the top of the deck, and you're stuck with shitty draws for the next few turns.

-Not as much of an issue, but it can't be used under Damping Matrix, something that I board in quite frequently, and it is also manipulation that can get hit by Pithing Needle.

Basically, the only time I really favored using it was when I was already comboing, at which point the deck just as easily draws into its win conditions. The fact that it's slower than Impulse, despite being a permanent source, is discouraging as well.

You also must compare the old list you posted to my current list. Scroll Rack was much more efficient in that deck because it didn't run the same type of manipulation that the deck today uses. Without the quick outlets in addition to Impulse of AK and Brainstorm, Scroll Rack did a better job to find cards. But today when you use those quick spells, in addition to fetchlands, drawing into answers is much easier, thus relieving Scroll Rack of any use in the deck. I'm still going to test it more, but the deck's engine has done a great job so far, so I'm skeptical to change it when it's already superior to other control decks' draw engines.

If your that scared of Lackey, why not run a few Chain of Vapors? You do run Crucible, which can recur any lands that you have to sac. It also pitches to FOW. The only other alternative I can think of would be a White splash for STP or running something like Daze/Force Spike...

No need to worry, already found a better answer. It was freaking obvious too.

Whit3 Ghost

10-22-2005, 07:41 AM

If your that scared of Lackey, why not run a few Chain of Vapors? You do run Crucible, which can recur any lands that you have to sac. It also pitches to FOW. The only other alternative I can think of would be a White splash for STP or running something like Daze/Force Spike...

No need to worry, already found a better answer. It was freaking obvious too.
Care to enlighten us on your secret tech?

Slay

10-22-2005, 03:59 PM

Nimble Mongoose?

On a sidenote, how would Nimble Mongoose be in general for this deck?
-Slay

10-22-2005, 05:54 PM

Sideboard Blue Elemental Blast ftw? I think so. Pretty much solves most of the problems the rest of the deck was having trouble with, which include:

-Counter turn 1 Lackey

-Kill turn 1 Lackey

-Counter turn 2 Piledriver on the draw

-Kill Goblin Warchief

-Snuff random Goblins in play

Yeah, not sure why I didn't use it in the first place, but after testing with the card in the board the deck's matchup isn't nearly as intimidating as it was before. Here's the changes I made for the board:

+3 BeB

-1 Gaea's Blessing
-1 Hail Storm
-1 Zuran Orb

Blessing was the last card added to the board, and the matchups I'd bring it in against aren't nearly as problematic as Goblins, so it felt like an obvious choice to remove. Hail Storm was specifically in the board for Goblins, as is BeB, but BeB deals with an opening Lackey. Zuran Orb was another anti-red choice, and the addition of 3 BeB allows you to play less of them. Plus, it was always getting hit by Pithing Needle and shutoff by Damping Matrix.

gotikiller

10-23-2005, 08:32 PM

Diablos, Dad, I agree with everything you guys have said. I have played/tested on MWS and as well as built in person both yours, diablos, and dad's seperate lists and played a few games (around 14 cumulative) of which I would say about 9 were vs competitive decks (sometimes it is heard to find a competitive player on mws). The decks I played it against were:

Jacob Orlove Reanimator
Vail Goblins
Super-Gro

(I just included this to show that I am not doing a "grah" and randomly commenting without actually testing/playing/building/goldfishing)

I think overall the deck is built very well. Diablos you deserve major props. But, overall the main thing I noticed with the deck is that it's draw/search was sub-par. Some games would work very well, and in others that component of the turboland list you presented were... a bit lacking. So, I messed around with the list a little bit (mainly little tweaks as I tested) and came up with the following list:

Came up with the following list:
3 Mishra's Factory
5 Island
3 Forest
3 Flooded Strand
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
4 Tropical Island
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
3 Hail Storm
4 Exploration
4 Force of Will
2 Horn of Greed
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Counterspell
2 Constant Mists
1 Upheaval
1 Time Warp
1 Gaea's Blessing
2 Gifts Ungiven
4 Brainstorm
3 Regrowth/ 1x Regrowth and 2x Eternal Witness

Sideboard:
1 Constant Mists
2 Gaea's Blessing
3 Troll Ascetic
2 Naturalize
2 Damping Matrix
2 Zuran Orb
3 Blue Elemental Blast

I will walk you through my changes as they occured and my reasoning behind them.

+3 Regrowth/ +1x Regrowth and 2x Eternal Witness
I originally had 1x regrowth and 2x eternal witness, but witness just felt sooooooo bulky to me, so I decided to turn them into 2 more regrowths, I just made this change without testing (the 2x witness --> 2x regrowth) so I am not sure if that choice was correct. What is important about that 1 regrowth is that it allows you to make your win condition into an even smaller package, allowing you to put a maindeck gaea's blessing in the sideboard for the solidarity match. The way the combo works is you play time warp, maybe recur time warp with regrowth, play time warp, use gaea's blessing to put both regrowth and time warp into your library (gaea's blessing says up to 3 cards). With this method, you do combo off a few of your infinite turns, but infinite turns is infinite turns. You always get atleast 1x time warp resolved per turn and every turn or so get 2x time warp/turn. In exchange you get the usage of gifts ungiven which really really helps this deck out.

*Note you can not run 3x eternal witness b/c then you can not go off because witness doesnt go to your graveyard so no recursion.

+2 Gifts Ungiven
This card is hot. Seriously. I usually get a Crucible, a Horn, a Exploration, and a recursion card, if I have none of the cards I need in hand. Also it allows you to (if you run witness) go crucible/horn/witness/regrowth which works even better, but like I mentioned earlier I am nto sure about witness mainly because it feels bulky to me.

+1x Brainstorm, I added a 6th fetch which along with the gifts ungiven/blessing and friends allows enough shuffling for the deck to use brainstorm very effectively.

+1x Hail Storm. I did this because logically:
a. you want to make sure you draw Hail storm early, something that you can not guarantee at all if you are only running2
b. Constant Mists has buyback, meaning one lasts longer, causing a third constant mist to not be a necisitaty
c. 2x just wasnt cutting it

-1x Horn of Greed
Know that your draw/search is better you only need 2 Horns.

-4 AK
The first thing that I changed were the four AKs. I love AK, and have loved it since the days of Trix, but in this deck without an intuition/intuition enabler (sapphire medallion and friends), AK is just not that good. Even if you draw crazy cards through recurring it when you are going off, in my opinion there are better choices that are more efficient and allow you to combo off earlier, causing that point to be moot.

-2 Impulse
I have never liked Impulse, and probably never will. I took it out because it doesnt dig far enough, fast enough, and if you are only going to run 2x impulse it isnt as effective as gifts ungiven especially because we are running regrowth/witness now.

I appologize for finishing my post so soon, but I gtg so I will finish this later. I hope my post has improved the deck even a smigen.

Goti

10-23-2005, 09:37 PM

First off, good input. It's nice for more people to actually go out and test the deck and apply some interesting changes to it.

That being said, I did a bit of testing with it. Gifts Ungiven is pretty sick, I've got to admit. However, after running your list after a while, I came across the fact that the deck holds barely any draw. Your list only contains 4 Brainstorm for the early game, then only 2 Horn of Greed to combo and 2 Gifts Ungiven to find pieces. Compare that to 3 Brainstorm, 4 AK, 2 Impulse for early-game search, then 3 Horn to combo off. 4 Brainstorm alone isn't enough to draw into pieces, and that proved to be the case while running your list, as the deck was barely able to assemble combo pieces early to settle themselves in the game. This is a problem because the deck needs to have either an early Crucible or Horn in play to assume control of the game, and your list doesn't grasp that well.

gotikiller

10-24-2005, 08:10 PM

Well diablos I do understand what you are saying, and I have taken it into consideration when I was testing today. I do have to say that I have discovered some cool tech with gifts ungiven. I think I have found the perfect 4 cards to search for:

1x mystical tutor
1x regrowth
1x Horn of Greed
1x CoW

This basically enables you to get your engine into play no matter what, breaking gifts ungiven like std decks break it except without crap like hana kami.

This is my list from this night's testing (I have to go practice for an audition 2morrow. audition > magic, though I wish magic > audition *sigh*). Following is an explanation of why I changed those cards.

3 Mishra's Factory
5 Island
3 Forest
3 Flooded Strand
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
4 Tropical Island
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
2 Hail Storm
4 Exploration
4 Force of Will
2 Horn of Greed
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Counterspell
1 Constant Mists
1 Upheaval
1 Time Warp
1 Gaea's Blessing
3 Gifts Ungiven
4 Brainstorm
2 Regrowth
2 Mystical Tutor

// Sideboard:
SB: 1 Constant Mists
SB: 2 Gaea's Blessing
SB: 3 Troll Ascetic
SB: 2 Naturalize
SB: 2 Stifle
SB: 2 Zuran Orb
SB: 3 Blue Elemental Blast

I experimented with the following things:
cutting lands to 25 By getting rid of 1x Forest
Running 1x mystical tutor w/3x regrowth
Running 2x mystical tutor w/2x regrowth
2 vs 3 gifts ungiven.

cutting lands to 25 By getting rid of 1x Forest: This first experiment I tested over 5 games ( 2 matches ). I did not like that configuration at all. Turboland as its name suggests likes to play lands and thus 26 lands is a must. If you can get an early exploration (turns 1-2) then if you can drop 2 lands per turn you can easily cement an easy victory. It is hard for your opponent to defeat you when you have 8 lands in play vs his 4 allowing you to outmuscle by playing more expensive and more powerful cards.

Running 1x mystical tutor w/3x regrowth: once I discovered the synergy inbetween gifts ungiven/regrowth/horn/cow/mystical tutor I added one mystical tutor to the deck taking out a constant mists using the logic that turning one of my mists into 1GU spell(, etc.) was trumped by the increase in power of the gifts ungiven combo. While I was testing this version I really noticed what you mentioned diablos. I would be doing pretty well, fowed a lackey or the like, countering a few spells, use a hail storm, and then I would be looking for the gifts ungiven I need to tutor up the rest of my components. Basically even though I brainstormed THRICE! and shuffled after playing each brainstorm which maximized the # of cards from my deck that I could see, I STILL did not draw a gifts ungiven. Then my brain started to kick into problem solving mode. When I test I think like this: I am in position x I dont like y about position x, position z on the other side of the wall doesnt have the same problem with y, but I dont know how to get from x to z, so I figure out how to bridge that gap. So as my brain started to whiz through different solutions to this problem, my mind thought about running a 2nd mystical tutor.
Let me run you through the linear progression of my thought.
1.My first thought was no! the card disadvantage gods will look down upon you and punish you with neverending bad judges and the never ending plague of the 0-3.
2. But then I thought, well card disadvantage with the mirage tutors is only significant if 3+ are run. If I only use 1-2 in a game then it shouldnt be that much of a deal.
3. It would solve the problem (finding a gifts ungiven in the mid game to push the game into the end game) that I was having with the deck.
4. It would allow me to "virtually" run 4x hail storm and 3x constant mists.
5. So in conclusion, what I decided was the utility provided by the 2x mystical tutor outweighed the inherent card disadvantage generated through the usage of this card.

I have not had a chance to test the 2 mystical tutor version beyond 1-2 games so I am not sure what I feel about it yet. So just keep that in mind diablos if you decide to test this version of the deck out.

Well I am out, I wrote this in two sessions one before and one after my practice session so I might have some unfinished thoughts. sry if I did

Goti

lavafrogg

10-26-2005, 04:57 AM

I played turboland when it was legal and then again in type one. how good is this deck actually and how does it beat the main decks in the format? How contistantly? How do you beat solidarity? Draw a card withthe Blessing on the stack still says that you lose if you have no library? I love what you guys have done with the deck and i just want to know if i am getting the correct percentages in my playtest group?

Zilla

10-26-2005, 05:14 AM

lavafrogg

10-26-2005, 08:45 PM

Today i took a idea from the decks type one relative and added red to it. Ths allowed me to add recoup to help the Gifts Ungiven and also it allowed me to use barbarian ring as the win condition. It allows basically the same win condition...gain a lot of turns kill with two damage at a time but it allows you to kill little creatures if need be. The factories were great and all but i have been kept away from victory by a meddling mage naming upheval and three troll ascetics.
This is an uncounterable undisruptable win condition.

DampingEngine

10-26-2005, 10:38 PM

There's something I've always wondered. Has Mana Breach been tested in Turboland and is it good? Searching the forum seems to indicate it hasn't been tested, so maybe it slipped under the radar. This is Mana Breach:

Mana Breach
Enchantment
Casting Cost: 2U
Oracle Text: Whenever a player plays a spell, that player returns a land he or she controls to its owner's hand. (The person who played the spell chooses which of their lands is affected.)

I always wanted to base a deck around it ever since it came out, and now there's a deck that it would fit right in: Turboland. It's a very harassing card, slowing the game down immensely for anyone who doesn't control an Exploration. In fact, it's actually quite a formidable hoser against Solidarity, but most decks can't run it, so it isn't used in that capacity. Against control decks, it can stifle the player's attempt to build their mana base as much as they would like. And of course it also lets you bounce your lands, which can be advantageous in Turboland. I really think it's worth playtesting, at least in the sideboard. I don't really have any idea how to play Turboland but I might try it myself.

Pinder

10-27-2005, 01:22 AM

10-28-2005, 03:07 AM

@ Gotikiller

I like the work you're using with Gifts Ungiven in the build but further testing keeps pointing me away from it. The builds run less draw and early game setup, and Gifts Ungiven is slowasballs when setting up for the combo while under pressure.

Plus, 25 is the maximum of lands you need to run when playing a handful of quick search in the deck. You suggest 26 merely because the only draw in your deck is Brainstorm. With more draw, you don't need to flood yourself with lands.

@Matchups

Please read the old thread, then apply what I mentioned about the recent additions to their respective matchups. Not rocket surgery folks, seriously.

Today i took a idea from the decks type one relative and added red to it. Ths allowed me to add recoup to help the Gifts Ungiven and also it allowed me to use barbarian ring as the win condition. It allows basically the same win condition...gain a lot of turns kill with two damage at a time but it allows you to kill little creatures if need be. The factories were great and all but i have been kept away from victory by a meddling mage naming upheval and three troll ascetics.
This is an uncounterable undisruptable win condition.

Red is an appealing choice because of it's great spot removal and incredibly powerful Barbarian Ring, as well as access to Red Elemental Blast. However, that would be at least 3-6 more nonbasics added to the deck, which means a few basics would have to be cut. Turboland's manabase runs enough basics evade Wasteland issues in the early game, and another color threatens that early game stability.

There's something I've always wondered. Has Mana Breach been tested in Turboland and is it good?

I always wanted to base a deck around it ever since it came out, and now there's a deck that it would fit right in: Turboland. It's a very harassing card, slowing the game down immensely for anyone who doesn't control an Exploration. In fact, it's actually quite a formidable hoser against Solidarity, but most decks can't run it, so it isn't used in that capacity. Against control decks, it can stifle the player's attempt to build their mana base as much as they would like. And of course it also lets you bounce your lands, which can be advantageous in Turboland. I really think it's worth playtesting, at least in the sideboard. I don't really have any idea how to play Turboland but I might try it myself.

I haven't tested it, but it seems to be unnecessary. Returning lands is only as good as the number of Explorations in play, plus this deck plays a lot of spells, so the effect it would have on the opponent isn't nearly worth it. Plus, it is useless against Goblins.

I was wondering if anyone had previously considered Life from the Loam:

1G
Sorcery

Return up to 3 target land cards from your graveyard to you hand.
Dredge 3

In a deck with as many lands as Turboland, this essentially turns into a 1G 'draw 3 cards' that you get to use every turn. Any more thoughts?

What does this card do better than Crucible? Nothing.

lavafrogg

10-28-2005, 12:56 PM

Red is so good in the deck. I added 2 volcanic islands to support the recoupe and the ring. This allowed me to flashback regrowth (i run three) to get any piece back from the yard. The ring allowed me to kill any goblin and ravenous baloth that got in my way before i went infinate (couldnt find the time warp).
Many games started with me going land exploration land. Land land Gifts. Gifts is a house and it is so good.

Yesterday I took my turboland build to a tournament in Gilbert Az. My list was as follows:
Land:
1 Mishras Factory
1 Oboro
1 Barbarian Ring
4 Wasteland
3 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
3 Forest

Draw:
3 Gifts
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse

Combo:
2 Gaes Blessing
2 Horn of Greed
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Exploration
1 Time Warp

Other Gifts Targets:
3 Regrowth
1 Recoupe
1 Mystical Tutor

Other:
2 Constant Mists
4 Force of Will

Sideboard:
3 Control Magic
2 Capsize
4 Hydroblast
4 Pyroblast
2 Zuran Orb

The tournament was not very big but the players were very good and the games were alot of fun.
Game one put me across the table from a Tog deck that ran almost all non-basics. Both games had me Gifts for Wastelands Regrowths Crucibles and Mystical he drew many land but they all fell in despair.

Game two had me against a Green black deck that mainboarded Cranial Extractions. Game one i forced two extractions (stupid witness) and comboed off and game two i beat him to death with his own spirit monger after he cleared the board a couple times.

Game three was agianst a control deck that ran megrim, recoil and celaphid blue land (draw and discard) he also reached into his pocket and pulled out many duals. Both games had me fighting through disenchant after vindicate after counterspell to wasteland him out of the game.

The last game was against th egreen black deck and this one went to three. Game one saw me at the losing end of crainal extraction and then beat down by baloths. Game two had me lay an exploration and six land in three turns and then i started capsizing. I drew nothing but land and a horn and was at twelve land on turn six...so much fun. Game three was the longest game ever. I actually got to combo and he made me do it. He sided out spirit mongers so my control maics read destroy target baloth. I recurred those a few times and kept volraths stronghild off o fthe board. I had to come back from two deeds and two plauge boliers and comboed at one life for the win.
This deck is so much fun to play and next week is a bigger 50+ tournament that i will go to and post hw i do.

Pinder

11-01-2005, 01:02 AM

I was wondering if anyone had previously considered Life from the Loam:

1G
Sorcery

Return up to 3 target land cards from your graveyard to you hand.
Dredge 3

In a deck with as many lands as Turboland, this essentially turns into a 1G 'draw 3 cards' that you get to use every turn. Any more thoughts?

What does this card do better than Crucible? Nothing.
I don't think you quite got what I was implying there. LFTL isn't about returning the lands (you have crucible for that), it's about being able to dig through your deck. With a few explorations out, dredging three lands into your graveyard and playing them from the yard with crucible is great.
I'm not saying it should be run instead of crucible, but alongside it. The only downside I can see is if you toss something in the yard that isn't a land....

lavafrogg

11-02-2005, 10:09 AM

I do not agree with any form of Life from the Loam
The only way to make it a house like in extended is to add the cycling lands and use it as a draw engine.
Turboland has a good enough engine already and the cycling lands would just slow the deck down...no turn one land exploration land exploration land brainstorm when the lands come into play tapped.
If you think a deck needs to draw more than turboland than go play enchantress.

For the moment i am trying to make more or a TurboGifts deck. It plays real nice and has many combo control aspects. It is running Lich-Mirror Universe for the kill. Constant Mists-Glacial Chasm for the aggro matchups and the only problem i have right now is against fast combo. I am running Cranial Extraction but if you have to fire a crainal off through a counter spell or two, within the first couple turns then you are in a little trouble.
Overall it is playing really good and has alot of potential to be a teired deck.
I beleive that the turboland deck with red is a teir two deck and i want to improve on that.
I want a better kill condition because i want the ability to take a million turns but i dont want to only rely on that. Sometimes you just have to win and cant rely on a hoser to save your ass. I love the turboland deck and you guys have done great things with it but i just want ot improve on the already great thing.

11-15-2005, 01:30 AM

If Anyone read my report, I played Turboland with red at GP: Philly to 5-1-2. Only one win away from making day2, so not too shabby. Here's the list I ran:

Burning Turboland by Di, 5 minutes before GP:Philly begins:

4 Exploration
3 Horn of Greed
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Constant Mists
3 Pyroclasm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Burning Wish
3 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Intuition
1 Time Warp
2 Gaea's Blessing

4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Flooded Strand
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
3 Island
2 Forest

Sideboard:
1 Time Warp
1 Upheaval
1 Recoup
1 Seeds of Innocence
1 Hull Breach
1 Pyroclasm
2 Damping Matrix
2 Stifle
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Zuran Orb

The deck has improved greatly in consistancy as well as the goblin matchup from the changes. Maindeck Pyroclasms allow me to kill a turn 1 Lackey on the play as well as nuke the entire team easily, and it also nukes creatures that don't attack. Burning Wish allows a lot more consistancy, maximizing useful slots without cluttering the maindeck. Unfortunately I scrapped the board last second and missed some stuff. Also unfortunate that I didn't see a red deck all day, so half of my sideboard was completely useless. I've decided to keep the maindeck the way I ran it, because it worked very, very well, and now have a new proposed sideboard:

1 Time Warp
1 Seeds of Innocence
2 Hull Breach
1 Upheaval/Wildfire
1 Pyroclasm
2 Damping Matrix
2/3 Blue Elemental Blast
2/3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Stifle

I run 2 Hull Breach now so I can side one in and maximize slots to knock stuff with essentially 3 Naturalizes. I mean, I didn't want to run just one Naturalize, so another one to possibly Burning Wish for works. I'm currently testing Wildfire in the Upheaval slot, because I want to be able to destroy lands in the control matchups. This could also become Obliterate, which would be a pretty sick play against control, granted you have another Crucible to play. 5 Blasts depending on the meta, because I believe LoamaTog is ridonkulous and people should be playing the deck. Stifle I kept in because its versatility between aggro, combo, and control matchups really can't be ignored.

Comboplayer

11-20-2005, 04:41 AM

I just took Diablo's latest version of the deck (U/G/R version) to our local tourney and got second. With the only loss all day being to a Rock-type deck with heavy discard. I noticed that the deck is very versitile having good match ups versus both aggro and control.

I did notice that almost all of my rounds went to time limit and two rounds I barely won game two in the extra turns. One change that I made to the deck was that I ran one copy of Karvek's Torch in the sideboard. I'm not sure if it is needed but it won me the game in extra turns one time and sped up victory a couple other times. Often I was torching for 10+ damage--17 one time. It seems to me that sometimes relying only on Mishra's Factory isn't enough, sometimes they can't get through. Upheaval is awesome for this, but the Torch just won games (I did have both in the sideboard though).

11-20-2005, 02:21 PM

First, congrats on doing well, and also noticing how strong this deck actually is :)

Funny thing about Kaervek's Torch, it was a card I was seriously considering as a Wish target to hurry games up. At the GP six of my eight rounds went to time, and I was wanting a way to win a bit faster. I'm sure there's a chance it will make its way into the sideboard, but my only issue right now is that I don't want to grow dependant on the Wish board and have too many Wish slots and not enough stuff to board in. This was a problem I had during the GP. I had a lot of Wish targets but not enough cards to board in.

Also note I'm currently debating using Obliterate in the Upheaval slot in the board. Resetting the board is great either way, and I don't lose Exploration with Obliterate. The reason for this is the ability to destroy lands. I noticed land destruction can be very valuable for a deck that can work its way around it, and it would greatly help out control matchups, as well as hinder aggro decks to a degree to put me back in a winning position. I'm still testing, and most likely will stick with Upheaval, but it's worth other people trying to.

Comboplayer

11-20-2005, 07:58 PM

RKBZ

12-03-2005, 02:14 PM

The deck is a lot of fun to play and I want to thank you guys for a great thread. I know that the goblin match is a tough one and the most important to overcome. What about adding quicksand to combat early lackey and everything that comes later? Also what about Divining Top? With all the fetch lands and crucible, you regularly get to look at three fresh cards.

anonymos

12-03-2005, 02:53 PM

Goblins isn't that bad of a matchup. I played this last night and came in 5th with a 4-1-1 record. I drew for crap in the loss and the draw came from a REALLY unexpected Price of Progress. It holds most things under control really well. With basically 3 main board wrath of god (pyroclasm) for goblins, plus the ability to go fog every turn you have 1G available, goblins really isn't that hard in the early game. I made a couple of style changes from Diablos' list, partially for preference, partially for what I saw was there. I changed 1 Wasteland, 1 Crucible for 2 Pithing Needle. I liked having 2 needles main, but I don't think that the Crucible was the right choice. I didn't have an issue with only 3 wasteland, but I really missed the 3rd Crucible. Any suggestions on what else could be dropped to support this idea? The deck really caught a lot of people off guard, which always provides an advantage.

KillerWhiteRabbit

12-03-2005, 09:48 PM

I took this deck(DI's origional list, see page 1) to a 3d place finish today, at a local tourney. I went 3-0 in the swiss and lost to a goblin sleigh in the first round of the finals. Brief and vague as my reports always are, so if you have any questions, please ask away,

round 1:
Rouge survival sliver

This match ended up going to time, and was the only game I acually comboed off in. I got a mistlock set up early game one (and game 2, which we didn't finish), and simply proceded from there. His acidic sliver took me down rather low game 1, but I controlled his manabase enough that it wasn't much of a threat.

Round 2:
Bad burn.

I lost game one, but managed to pull out a W 2 and 3 due to zuran orb and crucible. No surprises there. *didn't combo off either game

Round 3:
Pox.

Crappy matchup, I lost game one to a sucky draw, and an early duress for crucible (this match revolves around crucible, by the way). Games 2 and 3 I resolved a crucible, and proceded to win from there. The rack sucks big donkey dick. *Didn't combo off either game

Round 4(finals round 1)
Gobbo Sleigh.

Got outraced game one, just too much stuff coming at me and no mistlock to slow it. In come 2 hail storms (I had gone 4 MB mist, 2 SB storm), and some orbs. I get a mistlock set up, and win game 2 (he scoops), zuran orb apperantly bugged him quite a bit. Game 3 I get a mistlock setup, then get fireblasted and lightning bolted for my remaining life. sucky,

Round 5 (finals round 2)
Boros deck wins.

Similar to last matchup, 'cept I won 2-1. Orb and mistlock obviously played a big part.

Thoughts: This deck is terrible for my meta, but I can see how it could excell in some places. I really wanted more MD win conditions other than the combo (meloku?). I know that has already been dismissed, but this is just my 2 cents.

In any case, good work guys,

Cheers!
-Chris

12-04-2005, 06:57 PM

Diablo--

I know what you mean about burning wish and not wanting to be reliant on the wish board. As I was playing the deck I kept getting the feeling that I wanted the second Time Warp to be main deck, so that I could wish for upheaval and one of the other sb options. As almost every game I ended up using one wish to get the second time warp.

Time Warp is by far the most Wished for target, but I dislike drawing them in the early game without being able to cast them. I find it better if I'm able to use that slot for possible flexible utility like Hull Breach or Pyroclasm, but still have another Wish to get Warp anyway. The flexibility Wish has in place of Warp really outweighs just another md Warp.

A funny thing about that was that kid that I played in the finals who was playing the Rock w/added discard watched me torch out my opponent in the previous round. So when we played, he was able to get off one cranial extraction against me: he named burning wish! He ended up beating me but that game stilll could have gone either way. I mentioned to him afterwards that he could have shortened the game by 45 mins had he named Gaea's Blessing.

If he named Gaea's Blessing, you could just use both Burning Wish to get them back, so either way you were ok :)

What about adding quicksand to combat early lackey and everything that comes later? Also what about Divining Top? With all the fetch lands and crucible, you regularly get to look at three fresh cards.

Quicksand is a pretty good option, and I like it. However, due to the number of colorless-producing sources in the deck already be high, you need to cut Wasteland in order to add it. I don't know if cutting a Wasteland is worth cutting knowing it's role in the deck, but I suppose it may be a metagame call. If there's a great difference in your aggro:control ratio in your metagame, I should be fine to go 3:1 or 2:2 with Wasteland/Quicksand.

Divining Top has pretty good synergy with the deck overall, but it doesn't draw cards. Drawing cards is what gets the deck really going, and slowing the draw by just putting answers on top isn't as appealing. Technically Scroll Rack is a stronger option as well, but still it's a draw spell that's hit by Pithing Needle.

Thoughts: This deck is terrible for my meta, but I can see how it could excell in some places. I really wanted more MD win conditions other than the combo (meloku?). I know that has already been dismissed, but this is just my 2 cents.

My best advice isn't to clutter the deck with more nonland slots for win conditions, but go to more manlands. If you really are looking for a faster win condition, splash white and add Nantuko Monastery. That gives for nasty big beats in an uncounterable form.

elmarco

12-06-2005, 04:22 PM

Hey Guys, I play the deck too and find that I don't combo often enough, I treid removing the combo cards (warp and blessing main deck) to replace them with living wish. This allow me to run Tabernacle, Glacial Chasm and even Maze in the board against gobos. I usually win using meloku, masticore or even morphling which are in the board. I haven't tried the red version yet but I have a hard time cutting Horn even tough pyroclasm is quite good. Has anyone esle tried the green wish version??

anonymos

12-14-2005, 01:40 AM

here's my variant for this friday. slight changes from Diablos' Philly build

4 Exploration
3 Horn of Greed
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Constant Mists
3 Pyroclasm
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Burning Wish
3 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Intuition
1 Time Warp
2 Gaea's Blessing
2 Pithing Needle

4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Flooded Strand
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
3 Island
2 Forest

I haven't figured out the sideboard yet. Probably a wishboard. I know you guys don't like the idea, but pithing needle covers a lot of bad matchups for me in SD when you are smart enough to name the right things.

1 Time Warp
1 Kaervek's Torch
2 Hull Breach
1 Pyroclasm
1 Flashfires
2 Damping Matrix
1 Upheaval (wildfire didn't do jack last time)
2 Red Blast
2 Blue Blast
2 Something Techy based on who shows with what

I'm fine playing what is essentially a wishboard with this deck. I didn't really board anything in when I played this a couple of weeks ago, other than the 2 Damping Matrix, and took 5th. I cut a counterspell and a wasteland from Di's build to try this time. I regretted the Crucible last time, but the missing wasteland was no worry. I don't know what else to cut instead of the counterspell, but I want to get 2 needles main. Any other ideas?

Ebinsugewa

01-02-2006, 01:45 AM

Sorry to totally necro this thread, but is Gifts working out for the people who are testing it? I've always been partial to Exploration, so I was looking at Turboland being a good choice as an unexpected deck in my meta. Would you say the matchup predictions still hold? Would you make any changes based on your testing since the last post?

Lego

01-13-2006, 01:20 PM

First, I have to apologize for the annoying newb post, I know people hate these. I don't want to be a complete and total idiot, but I've always been fascinated with this deck, and feel like I would be absolutely unable to play it. Can someone direct me to a Primer of some sort, or if one doesn't exist, give a quick walkthrough. I know the basic combo is to draw your whole deck and then recur Time Warp with Gaea's Blessings, and then Upheaval and beat with Mishra's Factory for the win. Now with the Wish board I suppose Torch is also a win. Although I know that, it seems like there are way too many decisions, and I was hoping someone might be able to start me out somewhere. Thanks so much, and sorry for the newb post!

PunkRocker1134

01-17-2006, 05:58 PM

Heres somethign new to consider. Turboland Stax:

TurbolandStax

// Lands
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
3 [7E] Island (3)
4 [RAV] Forest (3)
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Spells
4 [US] Exploration
4 [US] Smokestack
3 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [SH] Constant Mists
3 [SH] Horn of Greed
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [AL] Hail Storm
3 [VI] Impulse
4 [NE] Accumulated Knowledge
4 [7E] Counterspell
3 [5E] Brainstorm

Its pretty much Turboland with Smokestack. You can set it for much higher and easilty lock someone out of the game and win with Factory. Jsut a thought maybe it deserves a diferent thread. The reason for the lock is to maybe shore up some bad matchs, Im still testing. Sorry but ineeded to get it out there.

Lego

01-17-2006, 07:18 PM

@ PunkRocker: Seriously, Barn much? Just kidding :P I posted the Exploration in Stax idea over on the Angel Stax thread earlier today, mostly as a joke, but if something's going to be done with it, this may be the way to go. I don't know, there are other possibilities too.

PunkRocker1134

01-17-2006, 07:51 PM

Actually I have been working on this for a little while. This has been doing ok in Goldfishing, but I havent gotten too much testing at all.

Slay

01-17-2006, 08:41 PM

Why is there no infinite turn combo in that deck? Or, at the very least some kill condition like Meloku or Morphling?
-Slay

PunkRocker1134

01-17-2006, 09:14 PM

Land is the kill and the Stax lock works kinda liek the infinite turn combo when they are locked out of the game i think that works jsut as well. Factorys are my kill, they dotn take up any more space and provide chump blockers early on

Nightmare

01-18-2006, 10:36 AM

OK, so I'm bored at work right now, so I feel like answering a few of the questions that have come up recently with regards to one of my favorite decks. Here goes.

Can someone direct me to a Primer of some sort, or if one doesn't exist, give a quick walkthrough.While there isn't a primer available, persay, I can give you a quick walkthrough of what to do in a normal (read: undisrupted) game. Of course there will be variations, and this deck is wrought with subtle pieces of tech to get your ass out of a jam.

Steps to Playing Turboland Without Sucking, By Adam (Mr.) Nightmare:

1) Play Explorations. Play land. Get a mana advantage over your opponent ASAP, through Crucible, Exploration, Wasteland, and fetches.

2) Draw a bunch of cards. And by a bunch, I mean as many as you can. You cannot go infinite with more than 10ish cards left in the library. Remember that Horn comes before playing land, and don't be affraid to shuffle back AK #3 and #4 with Gaea's blessing.

2.5) Counter anything that sucks. You play 8 hard counters, as many or more than any other deck in the format. You also draw an ass-ton more cards than any deck in the format, and you can re-use your counters. If it sucks, don't let it resolve.

3) Once your deck is low on cards, start taking extra turns. You do this by Time Warping, Gaea's Blessing-ing, and shuffling back the Time Warps and the other Blessing. When your deck is short on cards, you are guaranteed to be able to Warp again. At this point, most people scoop to infinite turns, but if you need to play it out for them, or want to draw the rest of the game after winning game 1, you attack with Mishra's Factory and if they die, re-play them with Crucible. If shit hits the fan (3x Troll Ascetic staring at you) Upheaval floating at least 4 Green Mana, and replay the Explorations. That leaves you 4 mana to replay Crucible, Horn, etc. Often you can float a whole lot more and completely regain your board position.

That's it. That's really all there is to it without getting into how to beat specific matchups.

Is Gifts working out for the people who are testing it?Here's my build, as of the last time I picked up the deck.

TurboCapture (Mr. Nightmare)

Land - 25

4x Tropical Island
2x Volcanic Island
3x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland
1x Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
3x Flooded Strand/Polluted Delta
2x Wooded Foothills
4x Island
2x Forest
1x Mountain

Artifacts/Enchantments - 10

3x Horn of Greed
3x Crucible of Worlds
4x Exploration

Spells - 26

4x Force of Will
4x Counterspell
2x Burning Wish
2x Pyroclasm
1x Temporal Manipulation (Portal2 Time Warp)
1x Capture of Jingzhou (P3K Time Warp)
2x Gifts Ungiven
1x Regrowth
1x Recoup
2x Gaea's Blessing
4x Accumilated Knowledge
1x Constant Mists
1x Earthquake (will be Rolling Earthquake)

SB - 15

2x Zuran Orb
2x Damping Matrix
1x Builder's Bane
1x Upheaval
1x Pyroclasm
1x Seeds of Innocence
4x BEB/Hydroblast
3x REB/Pyroblast

A few notes on my build:

- The resoning behind the Portal Time Warps is four-fold. First, it's sexy and pimpfull. Do not overlook this reason. I had Judge promo Warps, and those were hot, but dude. They're portal. And hard as hell to find. You know you just checked eBay for them. Second, no one can Meddling Mage you, and stop you from taking Extra Turns. This is of ever-increasing importance with the rise of NQG. Third, although this is of little concern, Time Warp says "Target Player." I hear TeenieBopper once Misdirected one to himself. You can't do that to the Portal ones. Fourth, and most importantly, Gifts grabs 2 of them.

- One thing I was not happy about recently was the lack of the second Constant Mists. I want to fit in the second again, and I'm still thinking about what to cut for it. Caulyn would probably tell me to move a Warp to the board, but I couldn't do it. Gifts Ungiven is why. Being able to Gifts for 2 different Warps, Recoup, and Regrowth is NUTS. It's br0k3n, Type 1 style. You cannot be given a pile that doesn't result in you winning the game. I think this alone makes Gifts worth running. In fact, I think it's the best thing in the deck since the red splash. When told about my build, I hear Diablos said "Why didn't I think of that?" to which I reply, because I'm better than you, ATS boy.

- Rolling Earthquake is amazing. In the rare situation where someone's life total is less than yours, you Quake them out. Otherwise, it smashes Gro's face in. It kills everything on their table (including Mongoose, and including Enforcer) all at once. Pyroclasm wishes it was The Quake. In a real game situation, I have end step Gifted for Recoup, Quake, Land, Land, only to recoup the Quake and win.

- Builder's Bane is a techy card that serves one distinct purpose in this deck, and probably this deck alone. It kills multiple opponents artifacts without killing your own Crucibles and Horns. This is something that meltdown and Shatterstorm/Seeds can't do. It also doesn't care about the mana cost, which is nice on occasion. Oh, and it's a burn spell kinda. I'd like to fit Meltdown in the board as well, and that might take the place of Seeds.

Turboland StaxHere's my thoughts on this. Caulyn and I toyed around with the idea a long time ago, and at one point I think he even had Stacks in his board. It's pretty much strictly worse than just going infinite though. For one, you lose Gaea's Blessing. The ability to reuse Counterspells is so invaluable I can't even describe it. The cards I shuffle back are, in order, 1) Gaea's 2) Warps 3) Impulses(when I play them) 4) Counters. The only reason I put Impulses higher is because they can dig for more Counters.

You have a TON of draw in your build. This draws you into... death? The original build draws that much because it wants a low library count. yours draws itself low to go "Oh shit, if they nuke my Stack, I have 3 turns to win, assuming I don't ever lay a land again." If I were playing vs. you, I would never, ever scoop to 0 permanents. Plains, go, Swords with Fow Backup is GG for you.

I think the idea has promise, and I encourage you to test more, but I think you're making a mistake by not including at the very least the 2x Blessings.

That's all I got for now guys. Keep playing Tropical Islands.

SHAKE IT!

Rood

01-26-2006, 12:33 PM

I have been testing with Turboland for some time now and i came up with a similiar build to the one you guys have with more counter. Here it is.
Turboland
Lands:(23)
4x Windswept Heath
4x Tropical island
4x Mishra's Factory
4x forest
5x island
1x Glacial chasm
1x Wasteland
Creature:(1)
1x Battlefield Scrounger
Enchantments/Arifacts:(12)
4x Exploration
3x Crucible of Worlds
3x Horn of Greed
2x Pithing needle
Instants/Sorceries:(23)
4x Force of will
4x Daze
3x Counterspell
4x Accumulated Knowledge
2x Intuition
4x Sylvan Scrying
2x Time Warp

Lego

01-26-2006, 06:08 PM

@ Roodmistah: You know that Gaea's Blessing is actually legal in this format, right? Can you explain some of the choices you've made?

Danarim

01-29-2006, 05:11 AM

but is Gifts working out for the people who are testing it?

TurboCapture (Mr. Nightmare)
I see that everybody here runs Gifts + the red splash, but I don't. I dislike it, because it's simply slow - you need 3U, mana for the recurring, and then you eventually can play the tutored spells, that unfortunately have usually a high cc. Playing around wastelands and dazes isn't a piece of cake, the strategy is also vulnerable to tormod's crypt. I personally don't believe I really need tutoring for two *concrete* engine parts (except crucible+mists) - exploration + horn is great, exploration + crucible is great, horn + crucible is great. I find cheap draw spells and cantrips sufficient for finding the needed pieces, and when I already have them, playing gifts is a kind of overkill. Furthermore, recoup is not that cool if you have to tutor for enchantments/artifacts.
I run a simple UG version for one main reason - the consistency. It allows to run more cantrips and less lands. It does have not the problem of the random dead burning wish. It also casts fow easier.

Here's my decklist, for reverence:

4 Island
4 Tropical Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds

4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
1 Impulse
1 Cunning Wish

2 Hail Storm
2 Constant Mists

4 Exploration
3 Horn of Greed
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Scroll Rack

2 Gaea's Blessing
2 Temporal Manipulation
1 Capture of Jingzhou

SB: 3 Compost
SB: 2 Naturalize
SB: 2 Troll Ascetic
SB: 2 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Constant Mists
SB: 1 Stifle
SB: 1 Evacuation
SB: 1 Zuran Orb
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Multani's Presence

And a few notes, mainly in response to Mr Nightmare's list:

- Running 3x 'Time Warp' may seem weird, but I found it quite effective. It allows to go infinite a bit earlier, as well as to pitch the first drawn warp to force with no remorses. Someone can tell that it makes too much lategame slots, but I won't agree - just compare it with 2x Time Warp + 1x Regrowth + 1x Recoup + 2x Burning Wish - most of them are not useless before the lategame, but I don't believe drawing one of these is a joy at that time.

- 4x Brainstorm. In this deck, it's a must. You run a lot of fetches that can be recovered with crucible + 2 shuffle effects. You need to feed fow. Discard ruins you - brainstorm is a response. And finally, rearranging cards in control is always good, especially when you need to find some engine pieces. Maybe you don't want too much cards that needs U, but that's a reason to not run R rather than to not play brainstorm.

- Capture of Jinghzou - /me applaud Mr Nightmare

- Cunning Wish - first, it was the Upheaval slot, but I found it mediocre. When you have mana for it, there are two situations - the one when you want to have time warp instead, and the one when you already have infinite turns. It's quite good in the second one, but I rarely really needed it, capsize did well the job - you can play it infinite times, with buyback and blessings, so who cares what's on your opponent's board? Yes, that could be troll ascetics, but that doesn't hurt too much 3/3 recurring creatures, when your opponent has no mana. Capsize can be used in the middle game, that's the real advantage. I recently replaced it with Cunning Wish - I was already running echo in the board, so it could do the capsize job, and also find constant mists or naturalize, as well as an AK pitched to fow during the game.

- Scroll Rack - I like it much, with that amount of shuffle effects and draw, it works very well. While impulse is just a setup utility, I believe scroll rack to be a card that allows to go faster. But it has disadvantages, I won't recommend it in a gifts build.

Windux

06-05-2006, 03:07 PM

I Think Burning Turboland (posted by Diablo) is the right way to play this deck.
Gifts just wastes you more slots with recursion.

I worked a little bit on the List and thats my result:

4 Exploration
3 Horn of Greed
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Constant Mists
3 Pyroclasm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Burning Wish
3 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Intuition
1 Temporal Manipulation
2 Gaea's Blessing

4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Flooded Strand
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Cephalid Colosseum
1 Barbarian Ring

Sideboard:
1 Time Warp
1 Wildfire
1 Seeds of Innocence
2 Hull Breach
1 Pyroclasm
2 Damping Matrix
2 Stifle
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Red Elemental Blast

I moved out 1 land, to get the cut to 60 Cards. You draw enough lands at all.
-1 Mishras Factory: This is because I run also Barbarian Ring, but this can't kill Nimble Mongoose, so 2 Factorys are enough to make a 3/3 Assembly Worker. All other creature can easily be killed.
+1 Barbarian Ring: Its a recurring removal and if you go into your combo with just 1 Horn of Greed out (which should be enough), you can cast your Blessing on Time Warp+Blessing+Random Card and recurse every round your barbarian Ring for 2 additional Damage. It also makes it possible to kill your opponent before you go infinite.
- Or just Wish for Seeds and destroy all your Horns+Crucible (1 CoW in hand) and recure it every round up to 3 times (NOT 4, because you just have 3 Volcanics)
+1 Cephalid Colosseum: With Crucible its ridiculous. Just draw 3 and discard 3 lands. Against some decks Decks without Burn and counter (such as AngelStompy, Suicide, LftL Decks and so on) it's like Barbarian Ring another killoption in games who take some time.

Temporal Manipulation is also the only 5cc Time WALK. Time Warp and the P3K version can be misdirected, Temporal Manipulation can't.
It also has some more style then Time Warp (ok, Time Warp DCI signed in gold by Garfield, Pete Venters and god himself is more pretty) and if they recognize that you are playing Turboland, they probadly going to drop meddling Mage on Time Warp.
If I get one, I play a P3K "Warp" in my Sideboard. Against Meddling Mage player who didn't saw your Sideboard P3K "Warp" in game 1, you also can switch it to Mainboard with the P2 Time Warp.

Just my ideas.

Nightmare

06-05-2006, 03:31 PM

Temporal Manipulation is also the only 5cc Time WALK. Time Warp and the P3K version can be misdirected, Temporal Manipulation can't.This isn't true. Capture of Jingzhou also says "Take an extra turn after this one."

...if they recognize that you are playing Turboland, they probadly going to drop meddling Mage on Time Warp.If they're a good player, they name Gaea's Blessing.

Windux

06-05-2006, 04:21 PM

Ok, my fault. Then its even better :)
Okay, then Capture of Jingzhou and Temporal MB/SB and 0 Time Warps.

But what do you guys think about the 2 added Win-Option lands?

Lukas Preuss

06-06-2006, 06:38 AM

I think it's a pretty good idea. I run Cephalid Colisseum in Übermadness and it's awesome there. I can only imagine how good it is in this deck (where you can drop up to 4 lands a turn)... same goes for Barbarian Ring.

I'd run 4 Brainstorm though, since it is probably the best draw spell in the format... and you run enough fetchlands to make Brainstorm good. I don't kow what you would take out for it, though.

@Mr. Nightmare: Have you done any work on this deck since the list you posted back in January? Did Dissension add any playable cards to Turboland?

And just one quick thought: What do you guys think of Voidslime? It's a hard counter for three mana (which shouldn't be a problem since Turboland usually doesn't have mana problems) that functions as a Stifle as well...

TheInfamousBearAssassin

06-06-2006, 07:13 AM

I was thinking about it, and I don't like the idea of being unable to win unless you draw/resolve both Exploration and Horn of Greed (and that with only 3 Horns in your deck).

But then, I continue to believe that Communism isn't the best form of government known to man simply because of trite reasons like it's complete and abject failure, so what do I know?

Here's my build, Prufrock;

4x Simic Growth Chamber
4x Selesnya Sanctuary
4x Azorius Chancery
3x Flooded Strand
3x Windswept Heath
3x Tropical Island
1x Tundra
1x Savannah
3x Forest
1x Plains
1x Island

4x Exploration
4x Summer Bloom
2x Azusa, Lost But Seeking

4x Horn of Greed
4x Cunning Wish
4x Time Stretch
3x Decree of Justice
4x Eternal Witness
3x Moment's Peace

Couple of things;

Karoo lands. Inherent card advantage, mana smoothing, and tremendous synergy with every aspect of your deck. It's like your lands have double-strike or something crazy.

Summer Bloom/Azusa. Again, being able to do something without drawing an Exploration.

Time Stretch. Basically, instead of having to get a chain of Time Warps going, I decided it would be better to just spend a fraction of that mana on getting two of those turns immediately in one card, which I can actually use to honest to God do something instead of needing to chain another Time Warp to avoid passing and dying. Something like, I dunno, turn 1 hardcast DoJ for six tokens, untap, turn 2 swing for lethal and not bother with a tapdance routine.

Decree of Justice: Speaking of which... also something to do with all that mana you're generating with your 40/28 lands.

Cunning Wish: Various answer machine, combo enabler and kill condition.

Moment's Peace: Additional Time Walks, but minus the suck. Better than Glacial Chasm because you don't have to cut room for Crucible of Worlds, Life from the Loam, or Zuran Orb or some crap to support it, and it gets the job done. Also, see the lesson of Time Stretch vs. TimeWarp/Gaea'sBlessing/BeaconOfTomorrow/whatever; doing enough to win is strictly better than looking cool.

Eternal Witness: Over Blessing/Regrowth because an additional kill condition is nice.

Nightmare

06-06-2006, 07:21 AM

4x Cunning Wish
What's your wishboard look like Jack?

Karoo lands. Inherent card advantage, mana smoothing, and tremendous synergy with every aspect of your deck. It's like your lands have double-strike or something crazy.
I like them. I'll test them when I decide to test this again.

Time Stretch. Basically, instead of having to get a chain of Time Warps going, I decided it would be better to just spend a fraction of that mana on getting two of those turns immediately in one card, which I can actually use to honest to God do something instead of needing to chain another Time Warp to avoid passing and dying. Something like, I dunno, turn 1 hardcast DoJ for six tokens, untap, turn 2 swing for lethal and not bother with a tapdance routine.
Since it takes up 4 slots, and so does Warp/Warp/Blessing/Blessing, it's basically a personal preference thing, but I like having an out to Counterspells, and this does cost 10 mana, which is exactly as much as 2 Warps.

Windux

06-06-2006, 07:40 AM

Omg 12 Bouncelands? Did you ever played T2 with Bouncelands and your opponent played Eye of nowhere, Stone Rain, Boomerang on it? It's like "You play 5cc Time Warps? Boomerang on your Bounceland...that are TWO Time Warps for 2cc".
It's even worse with Wastelands.
As a T2 player, I really dislike the idea of Boucnelands... even more 12!.
You don't want to have only Bouncelands on your Hand, or 1 Basic, 1-3 Bounce. It's just bad.

28 Lands, just 4 Horns as Draw and only 4 Cunning Wish for Solutions.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

06-06-2006, 02:24 PM

What's your wishboard look like Jack?

I like them. I'll test them when I decide to test this again.

Since it takes up 4 slots, and so does Warp/Warp/Blessing/Blessing, it's basically a personal preference thing, but I like having an out to Counterspells, and this does cost 10 mana, which is exactly as much as 2 Warps.

The difference is that Time Stretch very usually immediately wins.

Windux: Wasteland isn't the end of the World, because, as noted, you're running 28 lands. Nor do you need Horn of Greed to win; Cunning Wish, Decree of Justice, and Time Stretch are all powerful outlets for that mana, functioning as additional draw. Eternal Witness is also additional card advantage, and Moment's Peace is double Time Walk in part against aggro decks, buying you the time to go off. There's nothing else that can't be solved via a combination of Wish and Witness. Any potential problems against control due to the low threat count are mitigated by the fact that DoJ kicks control's ass, and you can usually cycle for more far faster than they can.

Nightmare

06-06-2006, 03:01 PM

Alright, I'm willing to concede that in your build, Time Stretch may be better. I still want to know about Wish targets, and a couple other things.

- Combo Matchup seems like it sucks (a trend for your decks?). What's the plan?
- Did you consider just making this Wake?
- What's the fundamental turn (ie: when can you cast Stretch?)

Benie Bederios

06-06-2006, 06:17 PM

I haven't played you're list of Turboland, but the main advantage of timewarp is that you can cast it earlier. When you cast Timewarp turn 4, you probably get enough time to get you're engine up and running, but you might not always be able to play Timestretch before you die.

Lego

06-06-2006, 06:45 PM

The Wishboard that IBA gave me was the following:

1 Moment's Peace
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Echoing Truth
1 Forbid
1 Gilded Light
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Twincast
1 Abeyance
1 Pulse of the Fields

with 4 Plow Under rounding out the board. I was playing around with it a bit on MWS, and it seems to be a bit too slow. I just feel like a lot of the time you sit there playing lands and doing absolutely nothing else. The fundamental turn seemed to be 5 or 6 at the earliest, but you have to remember that before that turn you can hopefully be chaining Moment's Peace or Pulse of the Fields. Against anything that isn't trying to win with creatures though, you're probably going to lose. I'm sure IBA has a plan for this, I just don't know what it is. He said you could take out some of the Wishboard and go with the Glowrider/Rule of Law plan, but I'm not sure what else to do for other combo.

Remember that I played < 20 games. :smile:

JeremM

06-18-2006, 09:56 PM

Granted, my experience with TurboLand is rather limited (more precisely, one round against IBA over MWS), but would this deck benefit from Allosaurus Rider from Coldsnap as an additional win condition? The 7cc wouldn't be a huge deal, and having a tremendous creature on your side can't hurt (at worst, you'll gain a lot of life via a StP).

Tinefol

06-19-2006, 09:44 AM

Played quite a few games with deck (red wish variation by mr Nigtmare) and I absolutely love it. There seems to be a few questionable things, though.

AK doesn't belong there. It really sucks early game and is out of need later on. The deck needs a cheap early draw/search. I'd run Brainstorm instead of it.

Deck is really weak vs Burn unless you get a very fast start and also a Zuran Orb.

There seem to be problems with a usefulness of wish in the certain match ups. That board just doesn't give enough options. Someone suggested Rude awakening as a decent mid-game finisher, I think it is good enough.

Windux

06-28-2006, 06:15 PM

I though about following Changes:

4 Exploration
3 Horn of Greed
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Constant Mists
3 Pyroclasm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Burning Wish
3 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Research//Development
1 Temporal Manipulation
2 Gaea's Blessing

4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Flooded Strand
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Cephalid Colosseum
1 Barbarian Ring

Sideboard:
1 Time Warp
1 Wildfire
1 Seeds of Innocence
2 Hull Breach
1 Pyroclasm
2 Damping Matrix
3 Bound/Determinate
1 Vineleasher Kudzu (Maybe in comination with Berserk in Sideboard)
3 Blue Elemental Blast

Looks like the old list, with just a few changes.
I putted in Research/Development as an anti-gravehardhate card, 2nd combo-option (Vineleasher Kudzu...maybe Berserk too, but what stops an xxx/xxx Kudzu? ;) ) and Development as nice draw/beatdown plan.
For the next nice play with Research look below:

Also I added 3 Determinate to the Sideboard. Preboard you can shuffle it in with Research against heavy control decks, to force in your combo-pieces or force through your Counterspell against the Akromas Vengeance/Nev. Disk/Meddling Mage etc.

I'm also gonna to play this deck so at this month in a few tournaments. I'll give you reports of my results.

Tinefol

06-29-2006, 07:13 AM

After quite a bit of playtesting, I must conclude that the biggest problem with this deck is the slow draw. That is, Turboland relies on a good opening hand so much (and it happens rarely) that with a slow draw you're never going to win whatever the deck you face.

06-29-2006, 06:13 PM

I haven't been working on the deck much as of late because of Eternal Garden work, but my most recent list is actually a knock off of it. Ironic, because garden was originally based off Turboland. Anyway:

4 Exploration
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Horn of Greed

2 Gaea's Blessing
1 Time Warp
2 Burning Wish

4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Pyroclasm

3 Brainstorm
3 Intuition
1 Research/Development
2 Crop Rotation

3 Mox Diamond
4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Flooded Strand
3 Island
2 Forest
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Boseiju, who Shelters All
2 Wasteland

Sideboard:

1 Time Warp
1 Upheaval
1 Hull Breach
1 Nostalgic Dreams
2 Pyroclasm
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Intuition
1 Crop Rotation
2 Damping Matrix

I'm actually about to run out of the house so I can't immediately explain everything just now, but for those with half a brain I think they can comprehend. When I get back I'll go through it, so for now whatever.

TheDarkshineKnight

06-29-2006, 08:08 PM

I was waiting for you to post a Turboland deck. Once the discussion about Exploration began, I know it would happen. Though, I didn't expect it to come after Eternal Garden. Then again, I didn't expect Garden at all. For now, all I have to say is that I think its awesome.

Ebinsugewa

09-23-2006, 04:01 PM

Walk the Aeons - 4UU
Sorcery
Target player takes an extra turn after this one.
Buyback - Sacrifice three islands.

Not only because its art is kick ass. Is the lack of Blessing just too much loss of synergy for this card to be used? Though the three island flashback might be a bit much. What do you think?

noobslayer

09-23-2006, 04:39 PM

Mayhaps one as a Burning Wish target seems reasonable to test. When you don't have a fetchland but you have Crucible, it does allow you to start comboing into land-draws turn after turn when you lay a Horn of Greed. I wouldn't straight up replace Temporal Manipulation/Time waprs for it. The one mana cost difference can be significant at times.

Muradin

11-09-2006, 02:54 PM

In the last time is have done some testing with Turboland especially because one player in our Meta has been very succesfull with it during the last few weeks.

2 Forest
3 Island
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Polluted Delta
3 Rishadan Port
4 Tropical Island
4 Treetop Village
1 Oboro Palace in teh Clouds
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Horn of Greed
4 Exploration
3 Parallax Tide
1 Meloku the Clouded Mirror
3 Living Wish
2 Time Warp
3 Yavimaya Elder

Sideboard:
1 Oboro Palace in the Clouds
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Meloku the Clouded Mirror
1 Eternal Witness
1 Indrik Stompholer
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Battlefield Scrounger
2 Krosan Grip
2 Tormods Crypt
4 Propaganda

This Deck tries to win like normal Turboland but there is the combo with Parallax Tide and stifle in it. Together with a Tabernacle this will even kill all of your opponents creatures.
The most problematic matchup is Goblins preboarded. Of course sometimes you can be faster than they or get the Tide combo fast enough, but most of the time they simply race you.
Postboarded there are the Propagandas which are good on their own but become even better with tabernacle and/or Parallax Tide.
So how would you improve this deck?
Would you try to fit some Propagandas into the maindeck?
What do you think about the Yavimaya Elders and would you put a 4. Tide into it?

Son_Gozen

11-10-2006, 10:40 AM

Nice list Muradin but i have to say:

Capture of Jingzhou >>>> Temporal Manipulation >>>> Time Warp

Good Deck i really like it maybe i shall test it out a bit...

Maveric78f

11-10-2006, 12:44 PM

Radley

03-13-2007, 01:24 PM

I like the walk of the aeons. With 3 exploration, your opponent won't ever get to play anymore hehehehe :laugh:

Windux

03-13-2007, 01:36 PM

I understand why you can prefer the portal's time walk to the regular one (you're afraid of misdirection-like cards), but I really don't see the difference between capture of Jingzhou and Temporal Manipulation (except if you count on a bad spelling for meddling mage, which is a bad strategy, as you don't even have to name the card, but just to describe it with no possibility of mistaking : naming the free counterspell with alternative cost of pay 1 life and removing a blue card would be accepted for FoW)

Naming the 5cc card which makes an extraturn is NOT enough, since there are 3 cards.

If you play all 3 of that, your opponent is forced to name one of these. Even if he calls a judge which looks up all cards with that kind. You are not supposed to say "Oh there is Capture of Jingzhou, which I play as a Burning Wish target".

So it IS relevant what your're playing

Cait_Sith

03-13-2007, 05:12 PM

2 Things:

1) Radley, for infinite Walk the Aeons you need a minimum of Exploration and either Crucible of Worlds or Life from the Loam. I know a better way for infinite turns.

2) My variation on IBA's deck:

// Lands
4 [DIS] Azorius Chancery
4 [RAV] Selesnya Sanctuary
3 [DIS] Simic Growth Chamber
1 [TSP] Forest
1 [A] Tundra
3 [U] Tropical Island
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [R] Savannah
2 [UNH] Island
2 [MR] Plains

// Creatures
4 [FD] Eternal Witness
2 [CHK] Azusa, Lost but Seeking

// Spells
4 [US] Exploration
4 [SH] Horn of Greed
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
3 [OD] Moment's Peace
3 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [ON] Words of Wind
3 [OD] Time Stretch
3 [VI] Elephant Grass

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [OD] Moment's Peace
SB: 1 [SOK] Twincast
SB: 1 [WL] Abeyance
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [IN] Fact or Fiction
SB: 1 [SC] Gilded Light
SB: 1 [A] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 [IN] Dismantling Blow
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [EX] Forbid
SB: 1 [US] Stroke of Genius
SB: 4 [9E] Sacred Ground

Some specific card choices:

Words of Wind: This has 2 functions. 1) It kills this deck's learning curve. 2) This allows you to dismantle your opponents board, often in 3 of fewer turns depending on how many extra land effects and Horns of Greed you have in play. It can also let you play extra lands off an Exploration by bouncing it and replaying it. One more thing: You can constantly bounce Witness to keep getting cards back form your graveyard, cards like Time Stretch (infinite turns anyone?), Elephant Grass (attack this!), Decree of Justice (I beat Life.dec by making 4 angels a turn and then decking them).

Elephant Grass: I kept having problems with Aggro beating me, so I threw in this cheap enchantment and have not been disappointed.

Wishboard: IBA > Everyone else.

Jaynel

03-13-2007, 05:46 PM

Would Propaganda be better than Elephant Grass? Here are some pros and cons I thought of for each.

Elephant Grass:
+
Costs G
Stops black creatures completely
Stops everyone else unless they pay 2
Strong in multiples?
-
Cumulative upkeep

Propaganda:
+
No cumulative upkeep
Stops everything unless they pay 2
Strong in multiples
-
Costs 2U

This reflects the only problem I see. Grass initially costs G, but it costs resources in the long run to keep it out. Propaganda has a higher initial cost at 2U, but you can forget about it once it's in play.

It also seems that Propaganda would be better because you really won't ever need an effect to stop creatures on turn 1 or turn 2. By the time you get to turn 3 when they may become relevant, playing either is essentially the same thing. I'm sure you could also accelerate out a turn 2 Propaganda easily.

Basically, has paying for Elephant Grass cumulative upkeep ever been a problem?

EDIT: Actually, a turn 1 Elephant Grass against TES forces them to go for Tendrils or find Tranquility. And it's better against Red Death.

Radley

03-14-2007, 04:55 AM