[Casual Deck] Wr Control

[Aethan]

I've been bouncing around an idea for a Wr control deck since I got the Ajani Vengeant plainswalker from my entry into the upcoming pre-release tourney. This is meant to be more of a casual deck than anything else. Here's what I've got:

Jon's WR Control

3 Pulse of the Fields - Tempo against aggro and burn
4 Lightning Helix - Removal, tempo (lifegain), wincon
4 Swords to Plowshares - Spot removal and lifegain
3 Oblivion Ring - Catchall removal, synergy with disk
4 Abeyance - Tempo
4 Gilded Light - Anti-combo
4 Lightning Bolt - Removal and wincon
3 Nevinyrral's Disk - Mass removal (More tempo )
4 Eternal Dragon - Wincon
3 Ajani Vengeant - Tempo (rishidan port effect), Wincon/removal (Lightning Helix effect), Tempo (Armageddon effect)

4 Mishra's Factory - Wincon
10 Plains
6 Mountain
4 Terramorphic Expanse - Ghetto fetch

Philosophy:
Control the board in the early game then drop threats. All creatures are able to survive a Disk. Manlands can even sneak in a few hits in the early game. Deck can also play as a burn deck in some matchups. Dragon is large enough to get an opponent down into burn range or win all by itself. Gilded Light is added as an anti-combo card (solidarity, tendrils, etc.) although it's not 100% reliable. Overall it looks like a fun deck to play and has a decent chance of holding its own, though probably not being a favorite, against most matchups.

[Poron]

4x Figure of Destiny please

[Aethan]

4x Figure of Destiny please

Hmm, interesting card but it doesn't synergize with the rest of the deck. It doesn't survive a disk and is very resource hungry.

[Aethan]

That may be the most useless comment I have seen posted in some time.

Perhaps, but I try not to be a jerk to people who might be honestly trying to help.

I'm thinking of subtracting a Gilded Light and Adding another Disk. Dump the extra Light in the yet-to-be-created sideboard.

[Drac]

You most likely should be adding Humility and Decree over disk
then if you fear removal you could up the Oblivion rings to 4, but i dont think that would be needed.

Humility has insane synergy with

Mishra's Factory
Decree of justice
Slice and Dice?

also bloodmoon might be intresting with your mana base, although it would wreck your factories. maybe sideboardable.

A simple question, why play this over the WR controll deck called Rifter?

[Aethan]

You most likely should be adding Humility and Decree over disk
then if you fear removal you could up the Oblivion rings to 4, but i dont think that would be needed.

Humility has insane synergy with

Mishra's Factory
Decree of justice
Slice and Dice?

also bloodmoon might be intresting with your mana base, although it would wreck your factories. maybe sideboardable.

A simple question, why play this over the WR controll deck called Rifter?

Hmm, ok. Humility has negative synergy with Mishra's Factory. When activated Mishra's Factory would go from being a 2/2 creature until end of turn to being a 1/1 creature until the end of turn - it would die to opposing creatures and, if the opponent has no creatures, it would do 1 point less damage per turn.

Decree of Justice would be putting a few 1/1's into play with Humility on board either way it is played, that's negative synergy.

Slice and dice costs more than Pyroclasm to cast and, when cycled, does less damage. I'm not using the Rifter staple card Lightning Rift so these card choices make no sense for this deck. I've got so much removal in this deck that I shouldn't need more anyway.

Finally, Humility has HUGE negative synergy with Eternal Dragon, the main beater of this deck.

I'm not using the Rifter deck because, as I said in my opening paragraph, I'm making a casual deck that would make good use of Ajani Vengeant.

[Bahamuth]

Hmm, ok. Humility has negative synergy with Mishra's Factory. When activated Mishra's Factory would go from being a 2/2 creature until end of turn to being a 1/1 creature until the end of turn - it would die to opposing creatures and, if the opponent has no creatures, it would do 1 point less damage per turn.

Decree of Justice would be putting a few 1/1's into play with Humility on board either way it is played, that's negative synergy.

Slice and dice costs more than Pyroclasm to cast and, when cycled, does less damage. I'm not using the Rifter staple card Lightning Rift so these card choices make no sense for this deck. I've got so much removal in this deck that I shouldn't need more anyway.

Finally, Humility has HUGE negative synergy with Eternal Dragon, the main beater of this deck.

I'm not using the Rifter deck because, as I said in my opening paragraph, I'm making a casual deck that would make good use of Ajani Vengeant.

Factory is 2/2 under Humilty.

Decree should practically always be cycles EOT. Therefore, there's no negative synergy.

[Aethan]

Factory is 2/2 under Humilty.

Decree should practically always be cycles EOT. Therefore, there's no negative synergy.

Humility 2WW Enchantment rare - Each creature loses all abilities and is a 1/1 creature.

Mishra's Factory Land uncommon - T: Add 1 colorless mana to your mana pool.1: Mishra's Factory becomes an Assembly Worker, a 2/2 artifact creature, until end of turn. Assembly Worker still counts as a land but cannot be tapped for mana the turn it comes into play.T: Target Assembly Worker gets +1/+1 until end of turn.

As soon as you make the factory a creature the static ability of Humility is applied and makes the factory a 1/1 creature with no abilities.

Even if I cycle Decree at EoT there is a huge mana investment for a few small creatures. Lets suppose I have 7 mana untapped. I cycle Decree EoT and put 4x 1/1 creatures into play. At best I've gotten 4 power of creature for 7 mana, not a great investment. Now let's suppose that I've had to use some of my instants, like Gilded Light, Lightning Bolt, etc., during my opponent's turn. If I cast Decree EoT I'd be getting even less creature on board for relatively more mana. Say I Decree for 5 giving me 2x 1/1's. I've now got a power to mana ratio of 0.4 rather than 0.57 when I played it for 7. So to play this spell most efficiently I have to tap out to use it. This implicitly assumes that I didn't have anything better to do with my mana during my opponent's turn than wait for EoT. It also assumes that I didn't have anything better to do with my mana during my turn either. Another point, in terms of tempo, is this: What if my opponent plays Pyroclasm or cycles that Slice and Dice? He has now cost me 7 mana worth of tempo for 2 or 3 mana, a big advantage. Add to this the fact that those tokens will not survive a disk and it becomes an even worse card choice - a big investment that may not pay off at all or, worse, hurt my development.

[Jaynel]

I think you should review layers (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3649). A Factory that is activated under a Humility is a 2/2.

[Drac]

Hmm, ok. Humility has negative synergy with Mishra's Factory. When activated Mishra's Factory would go from being a 2/2 creature until end of turn to being a 1/1 creature until the end of turn - it would die to opposing creatures and, if the opponent has no creatures, it would do 1 point less damage per turn.

Decree of Justice would be putting a few 1/1's into play with Humility on board either way it is played, that's negative synergy.

Slice and dice costs more than Pyroclasm to cast and, when cycled, does less damage. I'm not using the Rifter staple card Lightning Rift so these card choices make no sense for this deck. I've got so much removal in this deck that I shouldn't need more anyway.

Finally, Humility has HUGE negative synergy with Eternal Dragon, the main beater of this deck.

I'm not using the Rifter deck because, as I said in my opening paragraph, I'm making a casual deck that would make good use of Ajani Vengeant.


When activated under humility mishra's factory becomes a 2/2 without the ability to tap for +1/+1 or tap for mana. do your research before you disagree with me please.

Humility and decree of justice have enormous synergy. Its like cycling and playing 3-4 swords to plowshares. or getting a wincondition. Slice and dice has good synergy with humility and with rifter. but since you dont want to play rifter i can see your point.

Finally. yes there is negative synergy with dragon. but humility is such a powerfull card that it is absolute nonsence to not play it in a deck of the sort you are running. Resolving the thing spells autowin versus alot of decks in the format.

[Poron]

are you trying to rebuild Standstill? :P

Humility
Decree of Justice
Men Lands
Slice and Dice? Rotfl nice suicide for your soldier tokens
I'd rather stay WUg for Nantuko Monstery and 4x Standstill.

Set BEFORE (sorry for the caps) the strategy and THEN the colors that suits it the most.

[Drac]

No i am not trying to rebuild Lanstill

I was actually refering to the deck called Rifter.
Since its also a WR controll deck with the a comparable gameplan. Only its gameplan is much stronger. Winning with recurrable dragons and factories might work if your playing landstill and have a humility in play. But in this deck i dont see it working out just yet.

If you are playing a controll deck and your not playing counters, you better have a good gameplan. just controlling the board with some 1 vs 1 trades and then dragon to the face does not work if you are playing versus real people playing real decks. I strongly recommend running Humility and Decree.

Also in legacy you cannot afford playing Terramorphic expanse. These Ghetto fetches as you call it ruin your time to play answers at the right moments. If i where you i would play atleast 1 plateau and a split of fetches. even painlands would be better then those terramorphic tempo drains.

This is a list i put together in a second. It does not incorperate rifter because you clearly stated you are not a fan of that. This build would have more succes because you are able to create a situation that some decks cannot get past. for instance

Humility Next turn cycle decree of justice. then play ajani vengeant.


4 Swords to plowshares ---> the best removal card ingame.
4 Lightning Helix ---> Lifegain is nice and it can remove creatures
3 Ajani Vengeant --> powerfull tool if not removed, can shield itself from atleast 1 target
3 Humility ---> gamebreaking enchantment
4 Decree of Justice ----> i had many slots to fill so 4 are in. Powerfull win condition if humility is in play
3 Oblivion ring ----> catchall removal as you said, but does have negative synergy with disk
4 Abeyance -----> trying to stay close to your build good anti combo card, cantrips
4 Gilded Light ------> can help versus combo and can cycle otherwise.
3 Wrath of God -----> massive synergy with Humility and otherwise good board clearer.
4 Lightning bolt -----> your original build had these and i figured you might like the reach between these helix and ajani.


Sideboard:
Pithing Needle?
Ghostly Prison?
Blood Moon?
Magus of the Moon?
Pyroclasm?
Red elemental blast?
Pyroblast?
Disenchant?


Trying to keep the mana base not too expensive but still you need something.


4 Mishra's Factory good versus agro and amazing once humility hits
1 Plateau
3 Windswepth Heath
1 Bloodstained Mire
8 plains
7 mountains



I hope this might help you a tiny bit. Else well it kept me busy for atleast 15 minutes.

[Aethan]

Ok, this is a Casual Deck. Again, this is a deck designed to used Ajani Vengeant in a reasonable and fun way, nothing more.

That being said I want to optimize it as much as possible. There are actually several ways for this deck to win. Beating down with Eternal Dragon is only the most obvious. The deck can also win by getting in a few early hits with Mishra's Factory then finishing with the 11 sources of burn. The deck can also win with factory beats supported with removal of opposing creatures with burn, Oblivion Rings, Swords to Plowshares, Nevinyrral's Disk, and Akroma's Vengeance - 25 main deck sources of removal. It can also win with early factory beats with late Dragon beats and burn to finish... or any combination of the above.

As for the mana base, again, this is a casual deck. I'm not going to spend $100 or more for a manabase for a casual deck.

I see no reason to play Wrath of God over Disk. Disk gives answers to more problems than Wrath and operates only one turn slower. It has synergy with my own Oblivion Rings and takes care of problems with artifacts and enchantments - which this deck has no other answers to.

As for Humility and Decree I'm not saying it is a bad combo. What I am saying is that I don't like the expensive nature of the combo in terms of the mana required and its fragility in terms of ways it can be dealt with. (This combo is wrecked with Disenchant, Naturalize, Echoing Truth, Pyroclasm, Slice and Dice, Simoon, Hull Breach, counterspells, etc etc.) Disruption to the combo costs you a lot of tempo and essentially gives your opponent a 2 for 1 card advantage. I don't mind the chance of disruption so much as the fact that, even if your combo holds, you aren't guaranteed to win (as you would be with a Solidarity or Tendrils combo) and it will still cost you a lot of tempo in the form of mana.

I've changed things a bit:

3 Akroma's Vengeance - Mass removal (Tempo) and can cycle.
4 Lightning Helix - Removal, tempo (lifegain), wincon
4 Swords to Plowshares - Spot removal and lifegain
3 Oblivion Ring - Catchall removal, synergy with disk
4 Abeyance - Tempo
3 Gilded Light - Anti-combo
4 Lightning Bolt - Removal and wincon
4 Nevinyrral's Disk - Mass removal (More tempo)
4 Eternal Dragon - Wincon
3 Ajani Vengeant - Tempo (rishidan port effect), Wincon/removal (Lightning Helix effect), Tempo (Armageddon effect)

4 Mishra's Factory - Wincon
10 Plains
6 Mountain
4 Terramorphic Expanse - Ghetto fetch



No i am not trying to rebuild Lanstill

I was actually refering to the deck called Rifter.
Since its also a WR controll deck with the a comparable gameplan. Only its gameplan is much stronger. Winning with recurrable dragons and factories might work if your playing landstill and have a humility in play. But in this deck i dont see it working out just yet.

If you are playing a controll deck and your not playing counters, you better have a good gameplan. just controlling the board with some 1 vs 1 trades and then dragon to the face does not work if you are playing versus real people playing real decks. I strongly recommend running Humility and Decree.

Also in legacy you cannot afford playing Terramorphic expanse. These Ghetto fetches as you call it ruin your time to play answers at the right moments. If i where you i would play atleast 1 plateau and a split of fetches. even painlands would be better then those terramorphic tempo drains.

This is a list i put together in a second. It does not incorperate rifter because you clearly stated you are not a fan of that. This build would have more succes because you are able to create a situation that some decks cannot get past. for instance

Humility Next turn cycle decree of justice. then play ajani vengeant.


4 Swords to plowshares ---> the best removal card ingame.
4 Lightning Helix ---> Lifegain is nice and it can remove creatures
3 Ajani Vengeant --> powerfull tool if not removed, can shield itself from atleast 1 target
3 Humility ---> gamebreaking enchantment
4 Decree of Justice ----> i had many slots to fill so 4 are in. Powerfull win condition if humility is in play
3 Oblivion ring ----> catchall removal as you said, but does have negative synergy with disk
4 Abeyance -----> trying to stay close to your build good anti combo card, cantrips
4 Gilded Light ------> can help versus combo and can cycle otherwise.
3 Wrath of God -----> massive synergy with Humility and otherwise good board clearer.
4 Lightning bolt -----> your original build had these and i figured you might like the reach between these helix and ajani.


Sideboard:
Pithing Needle?
Ghostly Prison?
Blood Moon?
Magus of the Moon?
Pyroclasm?
Red elemental blast?
Pyroblast?
Disenchant?


Trying to keep the mana base not too expensive but still you need something.


4 Mishra's Factory good versus agro and amazing once humility hits
1 Plateau
3 Windswepth Heath
1 Bloodstained Mire
8 plains
7 mountains



I hope this might help you a tiny bit. Else well it kept me busy for atleast 15 minutes.

[Zinch]

Ok, this is a Casual Deck.
I see no reason to play Wrath of God over Disk. Disk gives answers to more problems than Wrath and operates only one turn slower. It has synergy with my own Oblivion Rings and takes care of problems with artifacts and enchantments - which this deck has no other answers to.



In fact, they have NO synergy because if you blow everyhing with your disk including a previous ring, the removed permanent will come back to the game and won't be destroyed, putting you in a bad situation...
I'm not saying disk is bad (and if this deck is casual, I think that the combo of the disk with the 3rd ability of Ajani is worth playing both cards), only that they are not that good togheter...

[Aethan]

In fact, they have NO synergy because if you blow everyhing with your disk including a previous ring, the removed permanent will come back to the game and won't be destroyed, putting you in a bad situation...
I'm not saying disk is bad (and if this deck is casual, I think that the combo of the disk with the 3rd ability of Ajani is worth playing both cards), only that they are not that good togheter...

You can Ring your own Dragon.

[Aethan]

In fact, they have NO synergy because if you blow everyhing with your disk including a previous ring, the removed permanent will come back to the game and won't be destroyed, putting you in a bad situation...
I'm not saying disk is bad (and if this deck is casual, I think that the combo of the disk with the 3rd ability of Ajani is worth playing both cards), only that they are not that good togheter...

Actually, I've changed my mind on this. Keeping a card in the deck (Oblivion Ring) that has only situational synergy with three other cards in the deck (Eternal Dragon) and anti-synergy with 7-10 others (Disk, Vengeance and maybe Ajani's 3rd ability) isn't a good card choice. I shouldn't be wasting a card slot on a card that, at best, saves me a few mana that would be used bringing the dragon back and, at worst, prevents me from using my strongest forms of removal.

I'd like to add 3x Mutavault but they are going to be absurdly expensive until they rotate out of extended. Perhaps 3x Chain Lightning would fill the spot well.

[Poron]

obviously this deck wants 4x Isochrone Scepter to have a minimally solid way to win, imprinting a PoP a Bolt or a Helix.

stay control and add 2x disenchant 3x orim's chant etc. with isochrone scepter this way can work cool

[Nydaeli]

You should play around with Searing Meditation. It's great with all the life gain you already run (Ajani, Helix, Pulse), and is definitely a casual-type card. It may change the focus of the deck too much - you basically have to build around it - but if you do run it, Renewed Faith and and Ajani Goldmane also go great with it.

[Aethan]

If I were to make this deck more serious I would go:

3 Akroma's Vengeance - Mass removal (Tempo) and can cycle.
4 Lightning Helix - Removal, tempo (lifegain), wincon
4 Swords to Plowshares - Spot removal and lifegain
4 Isochron Scepter - Copies most cards in the deck.
4 Abeyance - Tempo and nicely combos with Scepter (Chose over Chant because of cantrip)
3 Gilded Light - Anti-combo
4 Lightning Bolt - Removal and wincon
4 Nevinyrral's Disk - Mass removal (More tempo)
3 Eternal Dragon - Wincon
3 Ajani Vengeant - Tempo (rishidan port effect), Wincon/removal (Lightning Helix effect), Tempo (Armageddon effect)

4 Mishra's Factory - Wincon
4 Plateau
4 Bloodstained Mire
6 Plains
2 Mountain

Ok, about Abeyance vs. Orim's Chant. Chant locks just about everything down except a Vial, Lackey, and activated abilities. Abeyance locks everything down (including Vial) except creature spells and activated abilities and it has a cantrip. So is it better to have the creature lockout or better to have the all but creature/activated abilities lockout with the cantrip? My felling is the cantrip although it could go either way depending on the matchup.

[Media314r8]

Casual R/W Control (cheap Rifter)

Spells: 30
4x Swords
4x Lightning Helix
3x Gilded Light
3x Lightning Rift
2x Oblivion Ring
3x Humility
3x Ajani Vengeant
2x Slice and Dice
4x Decree of Justice
2x Austere Command

Creatures: 4
4x Eternal Dragon

Lands: 26
4x Forgotten Cave
4x Secluded Steppe
1x Sacred Foundry (can be searched via dragon. I'd personally pony up something like $15-$20 for a played plateau, as you can find it with your four dragons, and it will perform much better than terramorphics)
8x Plains (2x flagstones <-> 2x plains if you have acess to flagstones)
5x Mountains
4x Mishra's Factory

SB:
4x Smash to Smitherines
4x Relic of Prognesis
4x Seal of Cleansing
3x Sun Droplet

the deck might cost you all of $20 assuming you have the staples, (bolts, helixes, dragons, swords) thus making coughing up $20 for a plateau more feasible.

[Aethan]

Interesting. I'm wondering, however, what makes this better than the Isochron Scepter list (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=287103&postcount=19) I posted above? How do you play around the fact that Eternal Dragon has negative synergy with Humility? Thanks!


Casual R/W Control (cheap Rifter)

Spells: 30
4x Swords
4x Lightning Helix
3x Gilded Light
3x Lightning Rift
2x Oblivion Ring
3x Humility
3x Ajani Vengeant
2x Slice and Dice
4x Decree of Justice
2x Austere Command

Creatures: 4
4x Eternal Dragon

Lands: 26
4x Forgotten Cave
4x Secluded Steppe
1x Sacred Foundry (can be searched via dragon. I'd personally pony up something like $15-$20 for a played plateau, as you can find it with your four dragons, and it will perform much better than terramorphics)
8x Plains (2x flagstones <-> 2x plains if you have acess to flagstones)
5x Mountains
4x Mishra's Factory

SB:
4x Smash to Smitherines
4x Relic of Prognesis
4x Seal of Cleansing
3x Sun Droplet

the deck might cost you all of $20 assuming you have the staples, (bolts, helixes, dragons, swords) thus making coughing up $20 for a plateau more feasible.

[Media314r8]

Dragon is a late-game threat that will end the game if it stalls until turn a million, other than that, he's a fetchland and recurring, cantripping shock for a billion mana with rift out. If you resolve humility, you've basically already won assuming you don't get hit by a mainboarded K grip. Dragon is a reccuring wincon in a control deck that happens to fix your mana. He is the alternate win while not being a dead draw early on.

EDIT: Isochron Scepter is really pretty terrible with Krosan Grip now in existence. You are down on cards and mana until you use it twice, and don't start seeing CA until the third time. IMO, it could just be another removal spell rather than a mana intensive and fragile investment of two cards. (not to mention only swords is guaranteed to kill a goyf now.)

[Aethan]

All good points, thanks for taking the time. :)


Dragon is a late-game threat that will end the game if it stalls until turn a million, other than that, he's a fetchland and recurring, cantripping shock for a billion mana with rift out. If you resolve humility, you've basically already won assuming you don't get hit by a mainboarded K grip. Dragon is a reccuring wincon in a control deck that happens to fix your mana. He is the alternate win while not being a dead draw early on.

EDIT: Isochron Scepter is really pretty terrible with Krosan Grip now in existence. You are down on cards and mana until you use it twice, and don't start seeing CA until the third time. IMO, it could just be another removal spell rather than a mana intensive and fragile investment of two cards. (not to mention only swords is guaranteed to kill a goyf now.)