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Wallace
09-30-2008, 05:22 PM
I was wondering if this new Extended Deck would translate over to a Viable Legacy Deck. This works by dropping a turn 1 Bird, Swarm or Ornithopter, then on turn 2 you swing in and cast a Blazing Shoal pitching either Decree of Annihilation or Greater Gargadon. Then you can cast Rites of Consumption or, if you have the mana, Soul’s Fire. The deck works very well due to the fact that there is very little early game disruption in Extended. You don’t have to worry about: Daze, FoW, STP, Lightning Bolt and the Counter/Top combo. Here is the list:


4 Ornithopter (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/336.html)
4 Birds of Paradise (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/252.html)
4 Greater Gargadon (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/161.html)
4 Xantid Swarm (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/135.html)

4 Rite of Consumption (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/76.html)
4 Spoils of the Vault (http://magiccards.info/mi/en/78.html)
4 Magma Jet (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/73.html)
4 Soul’s Fire
4 Blazing Shoal (http://magiccards.info/bok/en/96.html)
4 Decree of Annihilation (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/85.html)
3 Chrome Mox (http://magiccards.info/mi/en/152.html)

4 Mosswort Bridge (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/270.html)
4 Spinerock Knoll (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/274.html)
4 City of Brass (http://magiccards.info/5e/en/413.html)
4 Gemstone Mine (http://magiccards.info/jr/en/22.html)
1 Reflecting Pool (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/278.html)

Sideboard:
4 Vexing Shusher (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/222.html)
4 Silhana Ledgewalker (http://magiccards.info/gp/en/94.html)
4 Fatal Frenzy (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/98.html)
3 Brass Gnat (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/249.html)

So how would you adapt this list to Legacy? First off I see so easy substitutions that can be made. I think this deck would play similar to Draco Explosion with some big differences. The first thing I would change is:


-4 Soul’s Fire

+3 Fling
+1 Berserk

I really think the 4th Chrome Mox is a must, dropping 1 land would probably be the best choice, so:
-1 Reflecting Pool

+1 Chrome Mox

After that I think 4 Berserk would be sick, but where to fit the other 3 in? Hmmmm… I will leave that up to you to decide.

The sideboard need’s to be made for Legacy, I think that all of the following card’s need to be explored:

Pyroblast/REB
Krosan Grip
Tormod’s Crypt
Pyroclasm
Pithing Needle
Vexing Shusher

So here is the deck I will be testing for legacy:

4 Ornithopter (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/336.html)
4 Birds of Paradise (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/252.html)
3 Greater Gargadon (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/161.html)
4 Xantid Swarm (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/135.html)

4 Rite of Consumption (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/76.html)
4 Spoils of the Vault (http://magiccards.info/mi/en/78.html)
4 Magma Jet (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/73.html)
3 Fling (http://magiccards.info/arena/en/36.html)
2 Berserk (http://magiccards.info/al/en/94.html)
4 Blazing Shoal (http://magiccards.info/bok/en/96.html)
4 Decree of Annihilation (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/85.html)
4 Chrome Mox (http://magiccards.info/mi/en/152.html)

4 Mosswort Bridge (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/270.html)
4 Spinerock Knoll (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/274.html)
4 City of Brass (http://magiccards.info/5e/en/413.html)
4 Gemstone Mine (http://magiccards.info/jr/en/22.html)

Sideboard:
4 Pithing Needle
4 Pyroblast
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Gaea's Blessing

LMK what you think and about any ideas you may have.

Nihil Credo
09-30-2008, 05:30 PM
You need to pitch a red card to Shoal. No Draco.

Xurcks
09-30-2008, 05:32 PM
You need to pitch a red card to Shoal. No Draco.

Nihil beat me to it.
Maybe use Dragon Tyrant instead?

Slag
09-30-2008, 05:34 PM
Bringer of the Red Dawn pitches for nine but can also be cast off of your rainbow lands and birds.

Wallace
09-30-2008, 05:38 PM
You need to pitch a red card to Shoal. No Draco.

RTFC!!!! Doh!!!!

Fixed.

Forbiddian
09-30-2008, 05:55 PM
It seems to have a negative chance of beating anything with red. A lot of decks run more burn than you run critters.


It's cool that you're running Tormod's Crypt and Gaia's Blessing to fight combo and pyroblast to fight control, but how does this deck NOT roll over and die to anything with a lightning bolt? Or anything with a thoughtseize? Or if they know what you're playing turn 1 Engineered Explosives.

For one, it's a three card combo at best. You need a critter, a Blazing Shoal, and a draco. 12*4*4. Or you could run 12*4*3*7 (if you use Greater Gargadon, counting Flings, Berserks, and Rites of of Consumption, making it a four card combo).

Every part is stoppable by countermagic or discard. Secondly the combo resolves turn 2 at best, but that's with REALLY narrow parameters.

Probably it resolves turn 3 at best. This gives barely enough mana for a Berserk and a Blazing Shoal. Usually I'd expect this to resolve turn 4 where you could Fling or Rites of Consumption.



Also, be prepared to lose every single game that you don't open with a Blazing Shoal in hand. There's only 1 card in the deck that serves that function, and there are 7 cards that are 100% dead without it (unless you want to wait until turn 11 to get a Greater Gargadon). Any Force of Will, any Daze, any Counterspell, any XXX requires you to use Xantid Swarm or lose. Beyond that, Swords + Force of Will in hand == GG. Engineered Explosives, Daze, Edict, Bolt, Fire/Ice are all just icing on the cake.

And about 25% of the games you'll just mulligan to oblivion because you couldn't find a Shoal and two red sources.

MTG Guru
10-01-2008, 10:13 AM
How soon can this deck "go off"? I assume 2nd and 3rd turn judging from the list.

EDIT: Thoughtseize much?

Moczoc
10-01-2008, 10:29 AM
Probably it resolves turn 3 at best. This gives barely enough mana for a Berserk and a Blazing Shoal. Usually I'd expect this to resolve turn 4 where you could Fling or Rites of Consumption.


And about 25% of the games you'll just mulligan to oblivion because you couldn't find a Shoal and two red sources.

Remember that Shoal doesn't cost mana.

And without Shoal in starting hand, you can go:

Turn 1: Birds or other 1/1 Flyer
Turn 2 : Spoils otV or Gamble for Shoal -> Berserk -> win

MTG Guru
10-01-2008, 10:31 AM
Remember that Shoal doesn't cost mana.

And without Shoal in starting hand, you can go:

Turn 1: Birds or other 1/1 Flyer
Turn 2 : Spoils otV or Gamble for Shoal -> Berserk -> win

If Berserk is that strong with Spoils, why isn't he running 4? Spoils + Redundancy = tech. A 3/2 split with Fling/Berserk isn't so much.

yankeedave
10-01-2008, 10:33 AM
Well, you could try for the other option of Spark Elemental and Raging Goblin to speed things up, but I used to run this as a standard deck back in the day, and it was a joke at best, would sneak the odd game, but not very well.

YD

Skeggi
10-01-2008, 10:35 AM
How soon can this deck "go off"? I assume 2nd and 3rd turn judging from the list.

Yes, it needs an attacking creature. Preferrably with evasion. Xantid Swarm is perfect for the job. The idea is to give it +10/+0 with the Shoal and then find a way to double the damage, either through Fling or Berserk. They seem like the obvious choices, as they permit the deck to stay 2 colors.

For what I can see, the downsides to this deck are: consistency. You need your attacker turn 1. You need a Shoal + high cc red spell, you need a Berserk or a Fling. That's alot of stuff you need. After that, this deck is very vulnerable: Chalice@1: you're fucked. Trinisphere: you're fucked. Anything playing creature removal: you're fucked. Dazes: fucked. FoW: fucked. A more fitting name for this deck would be "Please rape me".

So basically, you need a way to improve consistency and you need protection. White could be giving the protection through Orim's Chant or Abeyance. Blue could be giving consistency through various cantrips; protection through counters. Unfortunately, the shell of the deck requires alot of cards: 4 bop, 4 thopters, 4 swarm = 12 creatures. 4 shoal, 4 gargadon, 4 decree = 12 primary boosts. 4 berserk, 4 fling = 8 secondary boost. 12+12+8=32. If you'd run about 17 land, that leaves 11 spots free to find consistency and protection. That's not alot. I wouldn't run Chrome Mox. It seems like an auto-include in a deck with alot of potentially dead spells, but there's no need. The most mana you need turn 2 is 2 for Fling. You don't need acceleration here. Just run your 17 fetches and make sure you have green, red and blue mana. Protect yourself via Daze and FoW.

My list would look something like this:

Critters with evasion:
3 Bop
4 Swarm
4 Thopter

Pitch to Shoal:
4 Greater Gargadon
3 Decree of Annihilation

Boosts:
4 Blazing Shoal
4 Fling
4 Berserk

Consistency/Protection:
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Daze

Land:

2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga

I've been looking over the list a few times now. I still think it sucks. Is this actually a good deck in Extended? Or is it also a rogue shot?

MTG Guru
10-01-2008, 10:37 AM
Yes, it needs an attacking creature. Preferrably with evasion. Xantid Swarm is perfect for the job. The idea is to give it +10/+0 with the Shoal and then find a way to double the damage, either through Fling or Berserk. They seem like the obvious choices, as they permit the deck to stay 2 colors.

For what I can see, the downsides to this deck are: consistency. You need your attacker turn 1. You need a Shoal + high cc red spell, you need a Berserk or a Fling. That's alot of stuff you need. After that, this deck is very vulnerable: Chalice@1: you're fucked. Trinisphere: you're fucked. Anything playing creature removal: you're fucked. Dazes: fucked. FoW: fucked.

So basically, you need a way to improve consistency and you need protection. White could be giving the protection through Orim's Chant or Abeyance. Blue could be giving consistency through various cantrips; protection through counters. Unfortunately, the shell of the deck requires alot of cards: 4 bop, 4 thopters, 4 swarm = 12 creatures. 4 shoal, 4 gargadon, 4 decree = 12 primary boosts. 4 berserk, 4 fling = 8 secondary boost. 12+12+8=32. If you'd run about 17 land, that leaves 11 spots free to find consistency and protection. That's not alot. I wouldn't run Chrome Mox. It seems like an auto-include in a deck with alot of potentially dead spells, but there's no need. The most mana you need turn 2 is 2 for Fling. You don't need acceleration here. Just run your 17 fetches and make sure you have green, red and blue mana. Protect yourself via Daze and FoW.

My list would look something like this:

Critters with evasion:
3 Bop
4 Swarm
4 Thopter

Pitch to Shoal:
4 Greater Gargadon
3 Decree of Annihilation

Boosts:
4 Blazing Shoal
4 Fling
4 Berserk

Consistency/Protection:
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Daze

Land:

2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga

13 blue spells with FoW? I'd sooner go with black and play Thoughtseize/Duress.

Forbiddian
10-01-2008, 01:58 PM
If the deck had Shoal 5-8, it'd take a few games. Seems like a coinflip even if your opponent mulligans to four and is stuck on zero land.

At best running like 4x Gamble you have a barely-weighted coinflip. Maybe with the blue splash you can Mystical Tutor/Cunning Wish for it.

Maybe 4x Gamble, 4x Mystical Tutor. Tutor also fetches Decree.


4x Xantid Swarm
4x Zealous Guardian <--- U for a 1/1 Flash
4x Sage of Epityr <--- U for a 1/1 when it comes into play look at the top four cards of your library and put them back in any order
Also considered Slippery Boggle (G or U for a 1/1 untargettable-by-opponents) and Cursecatcher (1/1 sac for a disrupt effect)

3x Shoal
4x Gargadon
3x Decree of Annihilation
4x Fling
3x Berserk

4x Mystical Tutor
4x Cunning Wish
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
1x Daze

4x Tropical Island
4x Volcanic Island
1x Taiga
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Polluted Delta
1x Island
1x Forest

Sideboard: 1x Shoal, 1x Berserk, 1x Searing Wind (9cc red instant), 1x Pact of Negation, Lightning Bolt.



The deck kinda relies on your opponent not having a blocker. Or thinking that they shouldn't block. Or you having Berserk.

Other than Force of Will (which is required) and Daze which is really cool, this deck has the huge advantage of 8x Brainstorm effects (one on a creature). This should make the combo much more consistent. It also runs 4x Mystical Tutor and 4x Cunning Wish which should make the deck more consistently capable of finding Shoals.

It has the big disadvantage of Cunning Wish's (and Brainstorm's) lack of speed, pushing the average success back to like a turn 4 kill.

Occasionally it'll get the turn 2 kill, but only maybe 75%-80% as often as the other deck (because of fewer Shoals).

Anusien
10-01-2008, 02:52 PM
If Chalice at 1 is such a huge issue, what about playing Ornithopter? It flies, attacks, and doesn't die to Mogg Fanatic.

Wallace
10-01-2008, 03:02 PM
I've been looking over the list a few times now. I still think it sucks. Is this actually a good deck in Extended? Or is it also a rogue shot?

his deck is really good in extended, there isn't a lot of early game disruption to mess up the combo. So turn 1 bird, thopter or swarm, turn 2 shoal into rites = gg. There only a handful of spell that can mess up the combo, Seal of Fire, Shock, Tarfire and Mogg Fanatic are the common ones.

Skeggi
10-01-2008, 04:33 PM
Forbiddian might be on to a little something. Unfortunately, two thirds of his creatures don't have evasion.

Would Aven Envoy be better than BoP by the way?

Willoe
10-01-2008, 05:06 PM
Forbiddian might be on to a little something. Unfortunately, two thirds of his creatures don't have evasion.

Would Aven Envoy be better than BoP by the way?

Sure thing. Then you can possibly play FoW. The optimal critter base would be something like:

4 Ornithopter
4 Aven Envoy
4 Xantid Swarm

I strongly believe that Ornithopter is a good choice. The fact that it doesn't die to Mogg Fanatic and it has evasion is always something. Like Anusien said, it resists Chalice at 1, a very common play as most of you know.

Xantid Swarm is good as it gets game 1. If they don't zap it, you'll always win when you attack.

Aven Envoy pitched to FoW. Huge.

Also, props to anyone piloting a deck with 4 maindecked Aven Envoy to a top8 in a 33+ dude tourney.

This will never be able to get any good, but still, it's hella fun to win with small pesky creatures, and the moment of surprise is always loads of entertainment.

So why not add Ideas Unbound, and then a rainbow manabase? It works pretty well, after all. But sadly, with rainbow lands, we'd have to give up playing Daze.

Also, Mystical Tutor might fit in the deck. It grabs Decree, Blazing Shoal, Fling, Soul's Fire, Berserk... Yeah, all the dedicated win conditions.

---

Hmm, figuring out that most of the things I've said have already been said by some others, I'd sum up to say that Ideas Unbound and a rainbow manabase might fit.

Forbiddian
10-01-2008, 07:04 PM
I disagree that flying is necessary, although I haven't actually tested the deck and my list has like 62 or 63 cards or something.


Off the top of my head, I can barely think of any decks where flying vs. non-flying would matter.

1) You need to be going for the Swing and Fling route. If you trample up their dude, it's irrelevant or it puts them at -1. Note how my dudes have 1 power.

2) One of the creatures has a built-in impulse AND pitches to FoW. He can probably dig other creatures or more relevantly find a Berserk, a combo piece that you need, or the critical Xantid Swarm.

3) The other creature has Flash (and pitches to FoW). Maybe I'm looking too far into this, but I see a lot of situations where you have a clean board during your opponent's Mainphase and he taps out for something, then you hurry in and kill him. He's definitely the weakest of the creatures, but the threat of endstepping a creature into a win is an extremely strong threat.


Ornithopter is really cool vs. Mogg Fanatic, which is like 1 card that's run in like two decks and would almost never be cast in game 1. It's also strong against Flare and Lava Dart. I think that statistics lean HEAVILY toward that never being a serious problem.

If the deck has a Mogg Fanatic, he'll have Lightning Bolt and all Bolt's buddies, too. Or he'll have a second Mogg Fanatic. And anyway, do you even care about the red matchup? Are you really going to have the balls to swing your Ornithopter into two untapped Mountains? Probably, because this deck survives only by the skin of its balls, but it'll still lose 99 games out of 100 against red, Thopter or not.

Preboard at least, if your opponent plays a Mountain you might as well scoop 'em up. Even if you have immune to a singleton Mogg Fanatic written on your Ornithopter.

I think where this deck will really shine (or faster falter) is in the sideboard. I'd basically go 10 up 10 down against the most common deck in the meta. They probably don't have much to board in against you and you can bring a lot of hate.


The other card I was thinking about was maindecking 4x Mogg Fanatic. This deck has a sliver of a chance against Ichorid, especially since Ichorid won't know what the hell to do if you play Volcanic Island and then Mogg Fanatic.

Maybe the deck could be designed to crush one deck maindeck and then crush another deck after board and then lose every single game to every other deck. Nobody will really side against it and no deck will really


But also maybe this deck is just a cheesy budget alternative and running 8 blue fetches, 9 dual lands, and 4 force of wills is a bit excessive.

MTG Guru
10-02-2008, 01:04 PM
I think that a white splash might be better than the blue one. You get cards like Orim's Chant and Abeyance and you don't have to worry about the blue count since you won't be running FoW. And you can also throw in Elvish/Simian Spirit Guide in there to accelerate the Abeyance.

rufus
10-02-2008, 03:59 PM
There is the potential to go R/G with Glimpse/Kobolds which also offers the potential to accelerate out the Gargadon through the sack ability, and a storm finisher.

Moczoc
10-02-2008, 05:46 PM
Before someone suggests some cards for this deck, he/she has to test even a few goldfish game with it. It may seem faster than it actually is because the combo has to be gathered in 4 parts: creature; Shoal, pitchcard; "double damage" card
So the comboparts have to be contained in the deck in equal numbers, very cheap to play, or at least very cheap to get. The goal of the deck is a kill on turn 2. So cards like Cunning Wish and Abeyance are very far from bein playable. And evasion does matter. the Fling plan won't work because Fling is 1 mana to expensive and grants only half of the damage for a creature without evasion.

Here is my decklist. I reserved 4 slots for protection in the form of PoN. It seemed to me that other or more cards would make the deck unplayable. All other cards are comboparts or cards which get comboparts. I have to play 4 Manamorphose because there are no more cheap enough tutors that can get Shoal. (Ponder is good too in that slot). Willowthewhisp can be every other 1 mana evasion creature. I haven't made up a manabase yet, just take some Gemstone Mines and Duals. Only GBU are needed at all.

Creatures
2 Will-o'-the-Wisp
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Ornithopter

Spells
4 Pact of Negation

4 Decree of Annihilation
1 Reaper King

4 Blazing Shoal

4 Berserk

4 Mystical Tutor
4 Spoils of the Vault
4 Manamorphose

Lands 17

Have fun goldfishing, its a (probably never competetive but very) funny deck!

Forbiddian
10-02-2008, 07:59 PM
Without Cunning Wish, I feel that the deck lacks too much consistency to work. Especially with Berserk only, why the hell do you need fliers? Is your opponent really going to drop a 3 toughness creature on turn 1 AND never use a sacland? You're much better off with your 1 power creature with a great ability just trampling over their Welder for 22 damage. And if they play a three toughness goyf, they certainly took a pain from a fetchland, so they die anyway. They'd need a four toughness turn two drop, which is like Ponder into Goyf or something incredibly unlikely.

How does evasion matter with Berserk only? Give me a situation where you'd rather have a Birds of Paradise or Will-o-the-Wisp than a Sage of Epityr?

Oh yeah, when your opponent goes Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox, land, Chub Toad. Forgot about that common situation.

For the record, I've goldfished the deck, but this proves nothing. It's a statistical exercise and it'd take hundreds of trials for goldfishing the deck to actually be useful evidence (not to mention human memory error).



Taking out Fling and rolling with just Berserk is insane, statistically this deck will simply fail to get the combo parts in time.

The deck runs 14 Creatures, 4 Shoals, 5 Pitch Cards, and 4 Berserks. It has 17 land and needs two land by turn 2, probably missing both its draws (on the play because it lost the last game and needing the turn 2 draw for Mystical). Basically if it doesn't have two land in the opener, you gotta pitch it.

So basically you have to get a 14-of, two times a 17-of and a 4-of and that gives you a creature, two land, and one of the combo parts. That'll only happen 18% of the time in your opening 7, and that doesn't even include getting another 4-of, another 5-of (or tutoring for a missing part).



It's cool to streamline the deck in the hopes of getting a turn 2 kill, but since it only happens less than 1/5 games (even if the combo were magically simpler to get by two cards), I don't know how you have delusions that cards like Cunning Wish are too slow.


I like the Orim's Chant idea.

Skeggi
10-03-2008, 09:21 AM
I have to play 4 Manamorphose because there are no more cheap enough tutors that can get Shoal.
Wouldn't Street Wraith be better?