[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

[apistat_commander]

I honestly cannot imagine playing TA without Stifle, ever. It's just so fricking versatile, and quasi-unique in what it does. Many players take their activated or triggered abilities for granted. Well, you can teach them to be more humble and thankful for what they (usually) get, _if_ you choose to let it resolve. Examples: Planeswalker abilities. Batterskull getting its pesky Germ attached. A Miracle-trigger waiting to resolve. That SDT activation that your opponent so desperately needs. KotR, Mother of Runes, Maze of Ith, Vial, ... The list goes on - add potentially backbreaking mana denial and the possibilities Stifle opens up against Wasteland to all that, and I think it's an auto-include. Keeping U open isn't that big of a deal if you don't restrict yourself to stifling Fetchlands alone, which is a bad choice in itself anyway.

It isn't that I think Stifle is a bad card, it is that I wonder if there is the space for it in a BUG shell. I feel like you lose out on something when adding Stifle into the mix. For reference, what does your list look like?

[colo]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?11605-Deck-Team-America-%28Aggro-Tempo-Thread%29&p=681377&viewfull=1#post681377

Went 2-1 with that exact list yesterday, losing to Burn and beating two MUD-lists.

[laststepdown]

Has no one thought about running Deathrite Shaman in this deck? It seems like just the right thing vs graveyard strategies, the 1/2 body is relevent, and the extra life loss and gain could go over the top vs a deck like burn.

[B4nnar]

I think he is too slow for tempo strategy (although it's a great card with utility and flexible usage). I'd better go off with 2 Oozes as instant speed graveyard hate. You got discard and counterspells to help you out with burn decks. Ooze heals you a bit too.

[kingsey]

What is the general thoughts on hymn vs Inquisition of Kozilek these days?

[Maximus]

I think that the targeted discard is better for the time being. Targeted discard is easier on your mana base, better against a format with heavy Spell Pierce/Snare usage, and makes your counters much better. Of course, I also like Thoughtseize over both of those options.

I'm mostly posting in an attempt to attract new activity to this thread.

[kingsey]

I think that the targeted discard is better for the time being. Targeted discard is easier on your mana base, better against a format with heavy Spell Pierce/Snare usage, and makes your counters much better. Of course, I also like Thoughtseize over both of those options.

I'm mostly posting in an attempt to attract new activity to this thread.

Other then jace, what does seize grab that IoK doesn't ?

On a side note I've been running 4 decays and they are the real deal.

[azador]

Other then jace, what does seize grab that IoK doesn't ?

On a side note I've been running 4 decays and they are the real deal.

Force, terminus, every wrath variation ever, batterskull, moat, replenish....

[kingsey]

Force, terminus, every wrath variation ever, batterskull, moat, replenish....

Force is a big deal to us ? Pull the other blue card ?

terminus ill agree to.

Who runs wrath ?

Moat we use delver and tombstalker

Batterskull I agree, maybe stifle the germ ?

[azador]

Force is a big deal to us ? Pull the other blue card ?

terminus ill agree to.

Who runs wrath ?

Moat we use delver and tombstalker

Batterskull I agree, maybe stifle the germ ?

Don't act like you've never lost to a force. We all have. You ask for cards, ill give you examples of cards that cost more than 3.

As for wrath variations. Miracles often runs 1-2, lately its supreme verdict, so proactively taking it is even more relevant than ever. Also stoneblade.

I too ALWAYS draw win with without ever using goyf... oh wait... Moat can be a pain, as the decks that run it either run a bunch of other removal or, in the case of enchantress, elephant grass.

Stifling the germ is a fine play. Is much rather just never need to worry about the stupid skull to begin with.

[tsabo_tavoc]

Force is a big deal to us ? Pull the other blue card ?

terminus ill agree to.

Who runs wrath ?

Moat we use delver and tombstalker

Batterskull I agree, maybe stifle the germ ?

If there are CC0-3 spells in their hands, you would rarely want to take CC>4 spells.
Higher CC spells are taken care of by Spell Pierce.
Why would you discard a Terminus rather than a Miracle enabler?
Batterskull is not the problem, Stonforge Mystic is.

[Maximus]

Other then jace, what does seize grab that IoK doesn't ?

On a side note I've been running 4 decays and they are the real deal.

Thoughtseize grabs anything. When your deck is based around a single creature getting there in such a diverse format, taking anything is pretty good. It's not like we're playing Snapcaster Mage, you can afford the 2 life.

I don't like exposing a green source for Abrupt Decay personally. The card is the real deal, but I don't think it's a generic replacement for the maindeck removal.

[Einherjer]

I could not find a BUG Threshold - Thread so I will post here, even though this deck is not Team America.

I've been toying around with BUG Thresh and was comparing it to RUG Thresh as my main goal, as I do not play BUG because I like it, more because I think it is stronger than RUG. (in a certain metagame). - or atleast want to verify or falsify that statement.

Here are my conclusions after some amount of testing.

+ We can deal with Knight, Ooze and Knight when resolved
+ An resolved Counterbalance is easily beatable
+ Discard out of the Sideboard

- Our Removal can not aim at the opponents face
- We do not have sufficient good and cheap tribal-removal

~ 7 of our Spells cost 2.

This makes the Counterbalance and the Maverick - MU better, while weakening MUs where we are the racing-deck, some combos, and any burn-related deck. (Thats a bad MU für RUG already, but even worse for us)

So here is my current list:

Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

Spells
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Dismember
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Ponder
1 Preordain

Lands
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn

Sideboard
4 Thoughtseize
1 Flusterstorm
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Abrupt Decay
4 Tormod's Crypt

Any ideas on how to improve? Is anybody testing something similar?

Greetings

[kiblast]

Dark Threshold

Hey! I'm testing basically the same deck. The only difference is that I play one less Ghastly and one Darkblast maindeck. In the flex slot were you play Preordain I play Rushing River which was a staple in early tempo lists and now has been completely dismissed. It's an incredibly powerful spell in tempo decks as most of the times you use it to clear blockers for the alpha strike,but is super flexible and gets temporarily rid of annoying stuff like Moat or Shackles, and you know, with our undercosted beaters ''temporarily'' sometimes means swinging for lethal in a turn. A part from that basically same list here. I have no clue if 3rd Decay is needed. I mean, I play 2 and I love it and I like to see one once per game, but it's 2cc and most of the times you don't really need more than one per game, and most of the times I just wish it was Rushing River.
Out of the board I suggest to try 3x Nausea which will happily win games by itself vs DnT and Goblins, and have a more than decent utility versus Maverick (MoR is a pain in the ass, does cute 2-3x1), without being overcosted such as 3cc sweepers (Nature's Ruin comes to mind). You don't really need specifical hate vs. Maverick but you do need something vs. Goblins. Another idea is to stick a Nought by turn 2-3 and try to race them (playing 3 Noughts in the board).

[Einherjer]

Yup, others told me earlier too, that Noughts are good vs Tribals. I might just do -1 Preordain +1 Fetchland and -3 EE +3 Nought...

How does your Sideboard look?

Greetings

[zerzab11]

@Einherjer: Did you test a list with Dark Confidant? I'm just curious because it was a staple in old DarkTresh.

Concerning the Board: Golgari Charm seems much superior to Nausea in my opinion :)

[Squirrel]

Hey! I'm testing basically the same deck. The only difference is that I play one less Ghastly and one Darkblast maindeck. In the flex slot were you play Preordain I play Rushing River which was a staple in early tempo lists and now has been completely dismissed. It's an incredibly powerful spell in tempo decks as most of the times you use it to clear blockers for the alpha strike,but is super flexible and gets temporarily rid of annoying stuff like Moat or Shackles, and you know, with our undercosted beaters ''temporarily'' sometimes means swinging for lethal in a turn. A part from that basically same list here. I have no clue if 3rd Decay is needed. I mean, I play 2 and I love it and I like to see one once per game, but it's 2cc and most of the times you don't really need more than one per game, and most of the times I just wish it was Rushing River.
Out of the board I suggest to try 3x Nausea which will happily win games by itself vs DnT and Goblins, and have a more than decent utility versus Maverick (MoR is a pain in the ass, does cute 2-3x1), without being overcosted such as 3cc sweepers (Nature's Ruin comes to mind). You don't really need specifical hate vs. Maverick but you do need something vs. Goblins. Another idea is to stick a Nought by turn 2-3 and try to race them (playing 3 Noughts in the board).

Nausea should be replaced by the new Golgari Charm, which is instant and with other (less useful effects), the cost of BG should not be a problem..

[kiblast]

Nausea should be replaced by the new Golgari Charm, which is instant and with other (less useful effects), the cost of BG should not be a problem..

Oh yeah! Way better. Didn't know the card.

Dark Confidant: Imho Confidant sucks right now since it forces you to play lots of cc1 discard spells. Is an amazing creature but there is no space for him since you can't cut any of the 12 creatures.

Edit:


How does your Sideboard look?


3 Surgical
2 Tormod's
2 Needle
3 Seize
2 Flusterstorm
3 Golgari Charm!

[barrozo]

I'm also testing Dark Thresh for a big champ, and while I hadn't tested against Goblins (it will be the next deck in my gauntlet) and Maverick/DnT yet, I'm not that excited about Golgari Charm. It seems weak against Thalia+Wasteland and not that effective against Goblins. I'll keep it in mind, though.

[kingsey]

Played a few games against miricles.

Most went 2-1 to me.

Decay really bones them over most times. Tombstalker was fantastic all night.

I've been thinking of dropping force and stalker to go Bob and Mongoose, but i'm unsure still if thats a great idea?

[barrozo]

BUG Thresh put up some good results this weekend on SCG.

Kyle Edwards, 5th place
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=50676

Kaider Sheen, 20th place
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=50708

There are some choices worth discussing:

- Vendilion Clique: Don't get me wrong, I love the card itself, but 3 mana seems a lot for tempo builds. In a 18-19 land list, the mana is already too tight, and between Daze/Wasteland I think the card would be stuck in hand quite often. Thoughts?

- Deathrite Shaman: I tested it this weekend against RUG Delver in sideboarded games (I tested 3 in my SB), and I was surprised how good it was. It breaks stalemates quite easily, and making their Wastelands worse do matter. I'm not sure if I'd run in maindeck, though.

Re: droping FoW+Stalker to fit Bob: it's an idea worth testing if your meta isn't filled with combo. I can't try it here, though, as there are lots of weird things in my meta and I don't want to lose to randomness such as Dragon Stompy :laugh:

[jamis]

Yeah, this weekend really convinced me to drop Tombstalker for Nimble Mongoose. I realize I'm probably the last person to figure this out. There also seemed to be a lack of discard in the top performing lists, so I think I'll drop my Inquisition of Kozileks. I'm thinking in their place the 5th removal spell, a 3rd Spell Pierce, and 2 Snapcaster Mage. I know Snapcaster Mage is a pretty big mana sink, but the more midrange-ish BUG decks that have also been seeing play like Blake McCraken's 15th place list have been making good use of Snappy. Although it costs 4, giving Abrupt Decay flashback seems awesome.

[Richard Cheese]

Brewed this on Friday, goldfished it a bit, then took it to a GPT on Saturday and went 4-2, good enough for 3rd or 4th (didn't check the standings before leaving).


4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tombstalker
2 Deathrite Shaman

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Grisly Salvage
4 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce
3 Force of Will
3 Daze

4 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Bayou
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest


SB: 2 Virtue's Ruin
SB: 3 Hymn to Tourach
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 Extirpate
SB: 2 Krosan Grip


I beat Cheerios (Glimpse/Kobolds), lost to Dredge, beat RUG, beat TinFins (read about it if you don't know!), beat the same Dredge, then lost to Junk because of poopy draws.

Thoughts:
Grisly Salvage: still not entirely sold but I don't feel like I've played the list enough to say for sure. It's very good at cranking out Tombstalkers and digging for threats or helping you make a land drop, but it's also a little awkward to cast at times, and it's not really a threat or an answer on its own.

Abrupt Decay: want the 4th one, will probably cut a Salvage for it.

Deathrite Shaman: Pick these up if you haven't already, this guy is the real deal. I won the RUG and Dredge matchups because of him, and lost to Junk because I was staring down 3 of them.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

[Whippoorwill]

Played the following list yesterday for my weekly local event:

1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Underground Sea
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Wasteland

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Baleful Strix
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Tombstalker

4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Pierce
3 Thoughtseize
2 Lose Hope
1 Go For the Throat
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
4 Force of Will

1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:
1 Thoughtseize
2 Flusterstorm
2 Submerge
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Jitte
2 Extirpate
1 Nihil Spellbomb

Made it the night before as a hybrid of The Rock and RUG Delver. Here's a quick report:

Round 1 vs. Burn

Game 1: His Goblin Guides beat me down early on, but I eventually stabilize with a Jitte after being down to 3 life.

Game 2: He hits me for 3 multiple times the first few turns and gets me down to 1 before I'm able to recover.
Notable play was when I was at 1 and I drew a Force I was able to hardcast because of Shaman.

1-0; 2-0


Round 2 vs. Reanimator (Mono Black upgraded PDS)

Game 1: I die horribly after he goes Reanimate Sun Titan > Return Putrid Imp > Pitch Griselbrand > Animate Dead Griselbrand.
Didn't draw a single Shaman.

Game 2: Shaman in opening hand. Kinda hard to lose from there. Ended up with 2 Shamans and Nihil Spellbomb out.

Game 3: My opening hand: 3x Land, 3x Deathrite Shaman, Force of Will. He Cabal Therapies on the play. Thankfully he targetted himself,
though the previous 2 games he Therapied me for Force, hitting each time. I play Shaman on my turn while drawing a Blue card to pitch
to Force. I counter his reanimation spell then proceed to lock the game with my multiple Shamans. Ended up drawing the 4th not too
long after.

2-0; 4-1

Round 3. vs UG Painter/Aggro

This deck isn't what you'd expect. It has Mayor of Avrabrucks, Painters, 1 Grindtsone, Hibernation (main), Elephant Grass & Reap to
name a few.

Game 1: He draws ALL the Mayors and I come up just short of beating him with my Shamans despite getting mana flooded.

Game 2: He's light on mana and I make up for the removal I didn't draw game 1.

Game 3: He has 2 mana for the longest time, and Wasteland makes it even worse. Shamans seal the deal.

3-0; 6-2


Round 4 vs. Combo Elves

We were going to ID, but because of another person being 2-0-1 we played it out.

Game 1: He mulls to 6 and I Force his turn 1 Llanowar. I slowly get there, killing his creatures along the way.

Game 2: I Force his Llanowar again. EE took out his Jitte and an Elvish Visionary at one point but he managed to recover and kill
me with the aggro route. Note: I mentioned wishing I would draw a Deed a couple times, figured it wouldn't hurt even though I
wasn't running it.

Game 3: I live the dream! Turn 1 Delver followed by the blind flip (Force even). Shaman followed after. His Nettle Sentinel's life
was ended Abruptly before being Extirpated. Heritage Druid followed suit shortly after. His Relic of Progenitus made life annoying
for my Shaman, but he eventually used it in response to a Shaman activation on his turn. On my turn I swung with my Aberration
knocking him down to 2. On his turn he casts Glimpse of Nature to attempt to go off. Since he didn't play his Scavenging Ooze
before the Glimpse, he then loses to Shaman. He then redid the turn seeing what would have happened had he played around Shaman, but
it still wouldn't have been enough.

4-0; 8-3


Needless to say I'm quite happy with the deck for the most part. The sideboard was quickly thrown together, but I think I'll keep
most of it aside from the Lilianas since I never boarded those in. I figured I could use them against Control. Tombstalker was
kinda slow, but for now I like it. I may replace them if I find something I like more. 2x Snapcaster was the right amount. I
never really had them when I couldn't use them and they didn't compete with Shaman for use of the graveyard since I usually ate
my opponent's things first. Lose Hope worked just as well as I hoped it would, it provided me with an early removal spell as well
as deck filtering due to the Scry. I think 2 is the right number. Deathrite Shaman was easily the MVP, both in getting me life
when needed, providing graveyard removal and a clock depending on the situation. They may not hit creatures, but the trade off is
well worth it for the versitility. Baleful Strix was good and provided me with both defense and offense. The Amazing keyword on it also helped.

Like others have said, if you don't have Deathrite Shamans already, pick them up as they're severly underrated.

[B4nnar]

Regarding Tombstalker.

As we can see, with the latest results of SCGs Legacy Open and other tournaments there was little to none stalkers in any BUG aggro/tempo deck. I guess it's good sign of stalkers being to slow and overpriced in tempo deck - especcialy in tempo BUG.
Few pages earlier I was asking hows the creature base in current BUG. Lots of ppl still stick to stalkers while in bigger events black flyer still proves to be out of competition. Is there any reason to include this guy in our deck? He is more expensive than goyf, desynergises with rest of creature base (shaman, ooze, goyf, mongoose) and usually can't be cast when we lack land drops. Even those two black mana symbols seems to be too much in three color tempo. Delver replaces him greatly and 3/2 flyer for U > BB (+yard cost) 5/5 flyer.
I'd rather pull out 3/2 guy or 3/3 shoud mongoose turn earlier than be forced to wait an additional turn (in perfect conditions, since 8 cards in yard turn 2 seems to be pretty rare situation without darkblast/Loam). After all, when that 5/5 attacks, 3/X dude does it for his second time.

Snapy is in similar situation. In BUG tempo you rather cast additional beater than cast a spell from yard with it's cost accelerated by 2.

My thoughts are not related to BUG mid-range or other Team America's versions - just tempo strategy.

[apistat_commander]

- Vendilion Clique: Don't get me wrong, I love the card itself, but 3 mana seems a lot for tempo builds. In a 18-19 land list, the mana is already too tight, and between Daze/Wasteland I think the card would be stuck in hand quite often. Thoughts?

I tested Clique in a Grixis Delver build and it was always too expensive. I just don't think Clique works very well with 18-19 lands. If you start running more lands than that you become a crappy tempo control hybrid.


- Deathrite Shaman: I tested it this weekend against RUG Delver in sideboarded games (I tested 3 in my SB), and I was surprised how good it was. It breaks stalemates quite easily, and making their Wastelands worse do matter. I'm not sure if I'd run in maindeck, though.

Where are you bringing this in besides RUG and GY decks? It seems like it would be generally good against Wasteland decks, but I haven't done any testing with this.

Edit: Deathrite seems to be the nuts. I saw people (probably incorrectly) Forcing it at my last Legacy weekly. If people are that afraid of a card it has to be pretty beastly. I will be trying out 3 in my SB.

[Richard Cheese]

Regarding Tombstalker.

As we can see, with the latest results of SCGs Legacy Open and other tournaments there was little to none stalkers in any BUG aggro/tempo deck. I guess it's good sign of stalkers being to slow and overpriced in tempo deck - especcialy in tempo BUG.
Few pages earlier I was asking hows the creature base in current BUG. Lots of ppl still stick to stalkers while in bigger event black flyer still proves to be out of competition. Is there any reason to include this guy in our deck? He is more expensive than goyf, desynergises with rest of creature base (shaman, ooze, goyf, mongoose) and usually can't be cast when we lack land drops. Even those two black mana symbols seems to be too much in three color tempo. Delver replaces him greatly and 3/2 flyer for U > BB (+yard cost) 5/5 flyer.
I'd rather pull out 3/2 guy or 3/3 shoud mongoose turn earlier than be forced to wait an additional turn (in perfect conditions, since 8 cards turn 2 seems to be pretty rare situation without darkblast/Loam). After all, when that 5/5 attacks, 3/X dude does it for his second time.

Snapy is in similar situation. In BUG tempo you rather cast additional beater than cast a spell from yard with it's cost accelerated by 2.

My thoughts are not related to BUG mid-range or other Team America's versions - just tempo strategy.

How many aggro BUG lists were at the SCG Open that included Tombstalker?

[Water_Wizard]

Edit: Deathrite seems to be the nuts. I saw people (probably incorrectly) Forcing it at my last Legacy weekly. If people are that afraid of a card it has to be pretty beastly. I will be trying out 3 in my SB.

Yes, I think Deathrite is very good. Having played with it and against it, it provides a few very nice benefits in the legacy environment.

1) Mana ramp plus color fixing. Fetch + 1st turn Deathrite = 3 mana turn 2 or turn 1 Deathrite + turn 2 Wasteland = you still have 2 mana turn 2 and you Wasted your opponent's land while emptying their graveyard.

2) Deathrite is a constant threat. The -2 life ability is enough to force an opponent to deal with it when the game goes long. Similar to how we can play out a Goose and force them to deal with it, Deathrite has a similar ability. This ability also helps out with Snapcaster Mage.

3) The +2 life helps against aggro decks and if you are running Sylvan Library or Dark Confidant. It is also very good vs. Reanimator or Dredge.

4) Deathrite's 1/2 body is nice because it doesn't die to Darkblast or other -1/-1 effects and it can successfully block 1 power creatures (Lackey, Heirarch, etc.)

One of the only downsides is that Deathrite is a green creature, so you can't really run Perish out of the sideboard, if you liked to do that sort of thing.

[apistat_commander]

Deathrite is good.

I think the next question is if Deathrite is worth running in the maindeck. I think the answer is pretty clearly no for the more tempo oriented builds (Daze/Stifle based) but I could definitely see an argument for it being good in a more mid-rangeish shell where you drop Delvers and run Lilianas and Jaces. However at that point you might just become a weaker version of straight BUG control so there is that.

[barrozo]

Where are you bringing this (Deathrite Shaman) in besides RUG and GY decks? It seems like it would be generally good against Wasteland decks, but I haven't done any testing with this.

Edit: Deathrite seems to be the nuts. I saw people (probably incorrectly) Forcing it at my last Legacy weekly. If people are that afraid of a card it has to be pretty beastly. I will be trying out 3 in my SB.

I'm also bringing them against grindy decks, such as Junk and BW (yes, they exist in my meta). It gives nice value to their disruption, racing for damage if they stall the board. I brought them against Maverick in my tests but they didn't do enough to justify SBing them. They have few instant/sorceries (and sometimes you don't want to shrink our GY a lot because of geese, which can be awkward), and the gain life is almost irrelevant, as they always bash for millions. I'm yet to test them against Esper, but I suspect they won't do a lot, either.

[Water_Wizard]

I think the next question is if Deathrite is worth running in the maindeck. I think the answer is pretty clearly no for the more tempo oriented builds (Daze/Stifle based) but I could definitely see an argument for it being good in a more mid-rangeish shell where you drop Delvers and run Lilianas and Jaces. However at that point you might just become a weaker version of straight BUG control so there is that.

+1

I have to agree with that. If you are looking to cap your mana curve at 2, then you do not need Deathrite. If you are looking to extend into Liliana and Jace, then Deathrite is very good. Deathrite is better for the midrange Team America.

I could see tempo running Deathrite as a 2 or 3 of. The reason being is that it does provide relevant mana fixing and graveyard disruption. For granted, graveyard based decks are not seeing as much play lately, and other relevant cards, like Knight of the Reliquary, are also not very popular at the moment.

In the tempo build, Deathrite's most powerful asset is his ability to fix & accelerate your mana production. On the play, you can Waste turn 2 and still drop a Goyf or Hymn. Deathrite also allows you to make two 2-drops on turn 3 without overextending your mana on board (hold those extra lands in your hand to put back with a Brainstorm).

[B4nnar]

How many aggro BUG lists were at the SCG Open that included Tombstalker?I've already answered this in my post. However, if you really need some facts let's take a look on results from last few SGC Legacy Opens. Based on results between 2012-09-02 to 2012-11-18 (the last one in Dallas) there were total of 9 BUG Aggro variations in listed rankings. I'm not counting BUG Landstill and Controlish versions since those have differend strategies and are control-oriented. Six of them were typical tempo decks with RUG shell (BUG Delvers) and the rest were mid-range.

Total of 0 stalkers were included in both, MD and SB in each of those decks. You can run SCG search engine if you don't believe me. Stalkers can still be effective in local meta and can be cheap goyf replacement, although at pro level there is tendency to avoid those in your 75.

[Richard Cheese]

I've already answered this in my post. However, if you really need some facts let's take a look on results from last few SGC Legacy Opens. Based on results between 2012-09-02 to 2012-11-18 (the last one in Dallas) there were total of 9 BUG Aggro variations in listed rankings. I'm not counting BUG Landstill and Controlish versions since those have differend strategies and are control-oriented. Six of them were typical tempo decks with RUG shell (BUG Delvers) and the rest were mid-range.

Total of 0 stalkers were included in both, MD and SB in each of those decks. You can run SCG search engine if you don't believe me. Stalkers can still be effective in local meta and can be cheap goyf replacement, although at pro level there is tendency to avoid those in your 75.

My point is that there may not have been any BUG lists that included Tombstalker at the event, so while it is correct to say "lists without tombstalker did well at the last open", it may not be correct to say "lists without tombstalker performed better than those including it" without knowing whether or not anyone actually played with them. I don't know that SCG publishes the decklists of every single player though. It doesn't look like they do at least (can't find my own terribad past performances), but maybe I'm screwing up my criteria somehow.

[Water_Wizard]

I've been pretty happy with a modified version of this deck: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9349&iddeck=68226

It runs 4 Tarmogoyfs and 4 Tombstalkers. Originally, I thought 4 Tombstalkers was too many, but I've never been disappointed to see one.

I like Tombstalker, as it is harder to remove. STP is really that only thing that takes it out.

Delver is more fragile, is easier to remove, changes your deck composition (you need more soceries and instants), and removes Deed as a possibility from the board. Deed with Tombstalker on board is a very strong play.

Arguably, the build linked above is slower than a straight Aggro BUG version, but it still counts as Tempo, imo, due to the Stifles, Dazes, and discard. However, you could argue that the Planeswalkers pushes the deck into the mid-range category.

Maybe that's the deciding point with Tombstalker - straight Aggro BUG doesn't want it, while Mid-Range BUG does.

Tombstalker is certainly a non-bo with Nimble Mongoose, but I've never had serious issues with it affecting Goyf (usually, between both graveyards, you can cast Tombstalker while maintaining all relevant card types).

The only real issue for Gofy/Nimble/Stalker is Rest in Peace. This car single-handedly neuters your Goyfs, makes your Gooses into 1/1's, and makes your Tombstalkers impossible to cast. Rest in Peace wouldn't be so bad if it left current graveyards intact, but the fact that it removes current graveyards and future graveyards makes it a real beast.

[Spike]

I've already answered this in my post. However, if you really need some facts let's take a look on results from last few SGC Legacy Opens. Based on results between 2012-09-02 to 2012-11-18 (the last one in Dallas) there were total of 9 BUG Aggro variations in listed rankings. I'm not counting BUG Landstill and Controlish versions since those have differend strategies and are control-oriented. Six of them were typical tempo decks with RUG shell (BUG Delvers) and the rest were mid-range.

Total of 0 stalkers were included in both, MD and SB in each of those decks. You can run SCG search engine if you don't believe me. Stalkers can still be effective in local meta and can be cheap goyf replacement, although at pro level there is tendency to avoid those in your 75.

You can´t really take SCG Opens for reference when evaluating the power of Tombstalker. The playskill there is that of a FNM at best, with few exceptions. Most of the decklists there are plain rubbish or out of date because everyone just copy/pastes their decklist from prior events. Just because there are only a few people playing Tombstalker at the moment doesn´t mean that he´s bad. Even at "Pro Level" Tombstalker is a fine choice imo, cmc2 5/5 flying is pretty good I think. I´m very happy with my list and I would not hesitate to play Stalker at a GP or similar event. Its just a pretty unknown deck.

I´m not saying that the "Mongoose version" is bad or something like that. Just went 5-0 with that deck on Saturday in our local event, but it´s an entirely different deck and neither can you really compare those two nor can you draw a conclusion which of them is better. They´re equally good, it just depends on personal preferences.

[DLifshitz]

Just because there are only a few people playing Tombstalker at the moment doesn´t mean that he´s bad. Even at "Pro Level" Tombstalker is a fine choice imo, cmc2 5/5 flying is pretty good I think. I´m very happy with my list and I would not hesitate to play Stalker at a GP or similar event. Its just a pretty unknown deck.

No, 'Stalker is bad because he is difficult to cast early in the game, costs double black, has bad synergy with your own Tarmogoyfs, Deathrite Shamans and more Tombstalkers in your hand, and gets hosed by other people's Scavenging Oozes and Shamans, even if our opponent doesn't know you're playing Stalkers.* None of these things would be a serious problem on its own, but together they are damning. It's a lot like Phyrexian Negator - a card with a glorious past and no future.

*I also forgot to mention how bad it is to have a Tombstalker bounced to your hand by Jace. It's a terrible, terrible feeling.

[Maximus]

It's a terrible feeling to have Jace bounce your anything, or for him to hit play for that matter.

I tried Mongoose and didn't like it. It's good against heavy removal, but even then it feels pretty restrictive. Tombstalker kills them real fast.

[B4nnar]

You asked about SCG Opens results so I have posted just those. And sure, they post mostly just top32 and the rest usually if they are willing to / sometimes some interesting decks / or decks of some famous names.

DLifshitz just brought again points I have been reviewing in earlier posts. In tempo strategy you should minimalise dead draws. Tombstalker in opening hand stinks and I feel like it goes completely differend direction than the rest of our creatures. Even in mid-range I'd rather go for Bob/shaman or 2Jace/1Liliana. Most of the time you end up paying more than BB for him, plus it sucks to shrink our board just to bring another StP target leaving your beaters as miserable 1/X.

Water_Wizard, I agree that stalker belongs to mid-range BUG.
Delver changes your composition sure, but which card types are better for tempo than instants? Force of Will / Spell Pierce / Stifle and others. All of those makes your opponet pay more resources than you for same purpose: kill enemy. And isn't it the goal in going for tempo strategy? I guess it is. Thats why Delver > stalker in tempo.

[Tormod]

Played this last night at a 3 round 8 man at the LGS

4 goose
4 goyf
4 delver
2 deathrite
2 clique

3 daze
4 fow
2 pierce
4 stifle
4 abrupt decay

4 brainstorm
4 Ponder

19 lands
4 waste
8 fetches
0 basics

Sb
1 pierce
2 edict
1 EE
2 Kroshan Grip
2 echoing truth
2 thought seize
2 extirpate
2 submerge
1 life from the loam

Game 1 vs bant.
3 round match with much back and forth Mana denial, goyfs plus his knights and nobles. I felt I didn't draw enough removal so I'll add a couple more to the main. Ultimately goyf + noble > goyf

1-2

Game 2
Vs my cousin. He was leaving
2-0

Game 3
Vs counterbalance, land still, stiflenaught.
My opponents opener is island top so I put him on miracles. I built with the miracle match up in mind, referring to kroshan grips in the board and decays main.
I take games 1 + 3. Game 2 my opponent crushed me with a stiflenaught

[zulander]

Mana: 20
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacomb
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island

Creatures: 14
4 Delver
3 Deathrite
4 Goyf
3 Tombstalker

Draw: 9
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library

Disruption: 14
4 Daze
4 Force
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Dismember
4 Thoughtseize

This is a very rough draft, but I'd like to test it out.

Is Hymn an auto 4 of in the deck? I'd love to play it, but I feel it's too clunky with Decay in the mix.

[jamis]

No, pretty much no one plays Hymn anymore. Even Thoughtseize/Inquisition of Kozilek have been getting cut from a lot of lists.

[Maximus]

DLifshitz just brought again points I have been reviewing in earlier posts. In tempo strategy you should minimalise dead draws. Tombstalker in opening hand stinks and I feel like it goes completely different direction than the rest of our creatures. Even in mid-range I'd rather go for Bob/shaman or 2Jace/1Liliana. Most of the time you end up paying more than BB for him, plus it sucks to shrink our board just to bring another StP target leaving your beaters as miserable 1/X.

Water_Wizard, I agree that stalker belongs to mid-range BUG.
Delver changes your composition sure, but which card types are better for tempo than instants? Force of Will / Spell Pierce / Stifle and others. All of those makes your opponet pay more resources than you for same purpose: kill enemy. And isn't it the goal in going for tempo strategy? I guess it is. Thats why Delver > stalker in tempo.

Nimble Mongoose isn't doing much business any earlier than Tombstalker is, since having 7 for thresh is about equally prohibitive as having 6 cards to delve away. When you finally get them set up around turn 3 or 4, the flying 5/5 is a much better clock than an easily blocked 3/3. The main reason to play goose is for the shroud IMO.

Delver > everything in tempo, not just tombstalker.

[Spike]

Mana: 20
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacomb
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island

Creatures: 14
4 Delver
3 Deathrite
4 Goyf
3 Tombstalker

Draw: 9
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library

Disruption: 14
4 Daze
4 Force
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Dismember
4 Thoughtseize

This is a very rough draft, but I'd like to test it out.

Is Hymn an auto 4 of in the deck? I'd love to play it, but I feel it's too clunky with Decay in the mix.

I would do the following:

Lands:
-2 Tropical
+ 1 Bayou

Creatures:
+1 Deathrite Shaman

Other spells:
-4 Thoughtseize
+4 Hymn to Tourach

Hymn is still very powerful. My plan is to focus on the broken Turn2 plays that Deathrite Shaman enables like T1 Shaman + Daze into T2 Hymn to Tourach, or T1 Shaman into T2 Hymn + Wasteland, etc.

Besides that I'm playing Snuff Out over Dismember atm cause if you throw in a Snuff Out in one of the above scenarios things get even crazier ;)

[jeanbathez]

Tested this list on a small tournament :

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Ghastly Demise
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
4 Ponder
1 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

SB :
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Ghastly Demise
2 Spell Pierce
1 Life from the Loam
3 Thoughtseize
1 Flusterstorm

1. round : Uw Miracles with Helm Combo : 2:0
2. round : Rock 2:0
3. round : Nic Fit 1:2
4. round: Mono White Stax : 2:1

All in all i was very satisfied with this list, a small play error on my part was responsible for my loss in round 3 game 3..

Thoughts :

> decay was perfect, hitting so many targets was useful in all games
> mana cruve with 19 lands and a lot of 2 mana spells is perhaps too high
> still not sure about confidant and mongoose, they were good in some matchups but in others....- i had the feeling that my mongooses need a long time to get threshold...
> Still not sure in which direction i shall take this deck

[kingsey]

Nimble Mongoose isn't doing much business any earlier than Tombstalker is, since having 7 for thresh is about equally prohibitive as having 6 cards to delve away. When you finally get them set up around turn 3 or 4, the flying 5/5 is a much better clock than an easily blocked 3/3. The main reason to play goose is for the shroud IMO.

Delver > everything in tempo, not just tombstalker.

I agree with you max. Yes the shroud is nice, but the flying on stalker and the fact he can't be bolted has been huge for me. One of the reasons I love stalker is he closes the game out quickly. Plus seeing peoples " Oh Shit " faces when he hits the table is great :smile:

He also gets around counterbalance

[wcm8]

Here's a hypothetical list, needs tweaking:

19 Lands
4 Delver
4 Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker
4 FoW
4 Thoughtseize // Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce // Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Ghastly Demise // Snuff Out

(Maybe adjust some slots to fit in singletons of Sylvan Library, Liliana of the Veil, go up to 20 lands, adjust the removal options and proportions, etc.)

Tombstalker is still great, but I don't know if the deck can really support more than 2-3. I think if you run stuff like Predict or Thought Scour it's more reasonable to increase the number. But for this approach, he's just there to function as a big finisher that outsizes a ton of opposing decks' smaller threats.

Shaman is actually quite amazing. Beyond just mana fixing and accelerating into multiple plays in the early turns, he also gives you some reach and main-deck GY disruption. He can also help keep you out of Bolt range. When I was playing Team America some time ago, it seemed like Snapcaster recursion was a problem for the deck since they could just hit your dudes with removal over and over again. I know people will consider this card to be limited to playing Midrange/Control versions of BUG, but I think he may have a place in a more aggressive tempo version as well.

The rationale for playing a deck like this over RUG is the more versatile removal and having an increased edge against RUG, Counterbalance, and combo decks. You also gain access to some pretty sick SB options like Massacre, Dread of Night, Perish, Pernicious Deed, etc.

[apistat_commander]

Here's a hypothetical list, needs tweaking:

19 Lands
4 Delver
4 Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker
4 FoW
4 Thoughtseize // Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce // Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Ghastly Demise // Snuff Out

(Maybe adjust some slots to fit in singletons of Sylvan Library, Liliana of the Veil, go up to 20 lands, adjust the removal options and proportions, etc.)

Tombstalker is still great, but I don't know if the deck can really support more than 2-3. I think if you run stuff like Predict or Thought Scour it's more reasonable to increase the number. But for this approach, he's just there to function as a big finisher that outsizes a ton of opposing decks' smaller threats.

Shaman is actually quite amazing. Beyond just mana fixing and accelerating into multiple plays in the early turns, he also gives you some reach and main-deck GY disruption. He can also help keep you out of Bolt range. When I was playing Team America some time ago, it seemed like Snapcaster recursion was a problem for the deck since they could just hit your dudes with removal over and over again. I know people will consider this card to be limited to playing Midrange/Control versions of BUG, but I think he may have a place in a more aggressive tempo version as well.

The rationale for playing a deck like this over RUG is the more versatile removal and having an increased edge against RUG, Counterbalance, and combo decks. You also gain access to some pretty sick SB options like Massacre, Dread of Night, Perish, Pernicious Deed, etc.

I think BUG Tempo can be viable in certain metagames, but honestly if you are a deck playing Dazes you really want to close the game out quickly and I just don't think that trading the reach of Red is worth getting unconditional removal.

- Deathrite Shaman is a great card but I don't really think it fits in your shell. The decks where it does the most are either able to capitalize on the extra mana production with 3 and 4 drops or stall the board out with fatties and ping away. Tempo doesn't really do either of those things.

- You aren't running Stifle so some already tough MUs for Tempo (Nic Fit, Goblins) become even worse. Additionally with a lack of Stifle and Mongoose you have a hard time beating Miracles because while you can shut down Counterbalance they can still Swords/Terminus you out of the game.

- Abrupt Decay is good but it can be hard to have the correct mana for it given how weak the deck is to Wasteland. Your lack of Stifle also means that your stretched manabase is strained further. This is partially mitigated by Shaman but people are starting to realize that he needs to die ASAP so you can't count on that.

Here (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9481&iddeck=69206) is an example of a list similar to yours but note that it has Planeswalkers to ramp into. It doesn't flip Delver as reliably so I would almost want to cut it there.

This (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9481&iddeck=69201) deck is from the same tournament and seems to me to be a better execution of a BUG deck with Shaman. It trades Delvers for a mix of other creatures and planeswalkers:

Creatures [15]
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman

Instants [18]
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

Sorceries [2]
2 Preordain

Planeswalkers [5]
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands [20]
1 Bayou
3 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

I don't know if this is just a bad BUG control deck but I think the shell is promising. BUG control suffers from being unable to close out games quickly and while this deck can give you some awkward draws there are also some really powerful starts available as well.

[adrieng]

Hi,

I am testing this for the moment ;
I am in love with library+death shadow ;
this win game on his own.
Four seems a bit too much, but it is not ; becaus you close to always want a turn two library.
Massacre is for death and tax which is a tough matchup.
Grip are there for humility.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Wasteland
3 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Death's Shadow
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Tarmogoyf
SB: 4 Submerge
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Darkblast
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Massacre

[Madmankevinx]

If we are running a full 4x Wasteland, and we are also running 2-4 Tombstalker and any Nimble Mongoose in the same deck, has anyone tried running 1 or 2 Life from the Loam and a singleton Darkblast? They fuel both threshold and delve rather efficiently in my mind whilst being rather effective in the current meta. Am I wrong?

[Demonic_Attorney]

Hi,

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Wasteland
3 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Death's Shadow
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Tarmogoyf
SB: 4 Submerge
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Darkblast
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Massacre

4X Sylvan Library can you please explain this logic to me?

Seems manifestly excessive; no more than x2 seems like the right number to me.....

[Asthereal]

4X Sylvan Library can you please explain this logic to me?
Seems manifestly excessive; no more than x2 seems like the right number to me.....
Yes. 3x Death's Shadow in the main deck. :wink:

I wouldn't play this deck in that way though. Shadow is risky, where Tombstalker isn't.
Both are uncastable at times, but at least Stalker is fine with you having lots of life. :smile:

[adrieng]

Four library are there because if library is countered ; you may have an other one.
Furthermore turn two library is a turn three death's shadow -8 life then draw.
You close to always want a library in hand ; you have brainstorm to shuffle the redondant piece.
I have more wins when i draw library.

[Demonic_Attorney]

Four library are there because if library is countered ; you may have an other one.
Furthermore turn two library is a turn three death's shadow -8 life then draw.
You close to always want a library in hand ; you have brainstorm to shuffle the redondant piece.
I have more wins when i draw library.

I personally would only play two; however, I may consider could easily see three being played but four is just too many. I don't think your foregoing explanation justifies playing four.

[Whippoorwill]

After my terrible performance at SCG Seattle (1-3 drop, Fish is a terrible matchup) I played an updated list of my previous version this past Sunday:

1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Underground Sea
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Wasteland

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Dark Confidant
4 Baleful Strix

4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Lose Hope
4 Abrupt Decay

2 Liliana of the Veil

1 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:
1 Thoughtseize
1 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm
2 Submerge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Extirpate
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Vraska, the Unseen (filler spot)
1 [Can't Remember]

The biggest change is the complete removal of Force of Will and the inclusion of Dark Confidant. Before I always felt like I had a slow clock so I wanted to change that and take a more aggressive position.

This is all from memory, I'll update any changes later once I check my notes.

Round 1 vs. U/B Mill

Game 1: He has main deck Extirpate effects to help with his milling, one of which was a Shimian Specter that hit me and took Abrupt Decay. No big deal though since the only thing he had that I could hit with it was Deathrite Shaman from what I saw. Black Sun's Zenith was a huge pain in the ass. By the time the game ended, my deck was nearly empty and I only had 2 creatures left, thankfully one of those was in play and won me the game.

Game 2: He doesn't draw very many lands and I use Wasteland to keep it that way while I managed to beat him down.

1-0; 2-0

Round 2 vs. LED Dredge
I knew what he was on beforehand as I heard "Bridge From Blow" during the previous round.

Game 1: I keep a non-Deathrite hand that was decent. He gets me with Zombie tokens (1-2) shortly before I'm able to finish him off.

Game 2 & 3: Extirpate on Bridge and Deathrite make it near impossible for him to win.

2-0; 4-1

Round 3 vs. RUG Delver
The matchup I've been waiting for. This is the reason I built BUG.

Game 1: I keep a decent hand, but apparently his hand was full of Wastelands (3) and Stifle(s). He didn't have any threats early on though so I was able to put up somewhat of a fight.

Game 2: Bob smacks me in the face with a Submerge so he plays around it and doesn't fetch Forests. I eventually hardcast it since mana wasn't an issue. Extirpate took care of his Stifles. Delver and Bob get there with Decay killing his threats.

Game 3: This was a very close game. TWICE I managed to forget Delver flips thanks to Bob. I would flip for Bob, then look for Delver and forget to reveal before putting it in my hand. He was going to let me flip anyways the first time but I declined since it was my error. He's light on lands but has Loam, however both times it was cast it was met with Flusterstorm. Bob kept flipping lands like a boss and the end came with the following:

I'm at 4 life, he has unflipped Delver, Volcanic Island and another (non-red) land. I know most of his hand from an earlier Extirpate. He reveals Lightning Bolt for Delver, in response I hardcast Submerge on his Delver and he REBs it. He could swing at me and put me to 1, but if he does he dies to attacks on my turn (assuming Bob doesn't kill me). He passes the turn since he has a Bolt in hand to kill me with next turn anyways. I flip for Bob and reveal a 1 putting me down to 3. I Thoughtseize him taking Bolt and putting myself at 1. I think I drew an Abrupt Decay off my normal draw then killed his Delver for the win.

3-0; 6-2

I'm the only undefeated at this point, but we do 4 rounds.

Round 4 vs. UW Miracles
This was what my 1 win was against at the Open, so I'm confidant in this matchup. We ID anyways and play it out since he wants to test against me.

3-0-1; 6-2-1 officially

Game 1: Abrupt Decay deals with Counterbalance and Rest in Peace (sooooo annoying). Bob and Deathrite deal with his life total.

Game 2: He gets the early RiP and I don't have any Decays in hand. He messed up at one point after playing Helm (with no mana open thankfully). On my turn I drew then Brainstormed (into Decay). If he countered my Brainstorm he would have won. I eventually take the game thanks in part to Liliana. He had Back to Basics out and I ultimated Liliana giving him either 2-3 basic Island and Detention Sphere (on Delver) or Back to Basics, 2 Tundras and 2 Plains. He took the pile with the Plains. Either way he was going to be shut off of 1 color unless he drew a source (He had a top on top of his library as well). I end up killing him with Thrun and an unflipped Delver. I tried casting Vraska earler, but he Forced it. :(

4-0; 8-2 in played games.

I'm liking the deck more, but it still needs more tuning. Lose Hope is still great. I think I'm going to move Liliana back to the board and cut 2 Strixes for a Goyf (only own 1 currently) and another threat. I love the card advantage of Strix, but Bob does it so much better. Also considering fitting 2x Garruk Relentless somewhere in the 75. Jace is also a consideration even though I think its a better fit in the control version.

[Asthereal]

Forgive me for nitpicking, but why is this report in the Aggro/Tempo thread?
You play no proper beatsticks, only 3 Wastelands, no Stifles and 21 lands + Deathrite Shaman.
The sideboard even has Thrun and Vraska. That defnitely is not a tempo oriented deck. :tongue:
Bob is nice though in the current meta. I'm thinking about playing the following:

Guys:
4 Delver
4 Goyf
4 Confidant /12

Spells:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Stifle.
3 Spell Pierce
4 Ghastly Demise
3 Abrupt Decay /30

Lands:
3 Sea
3 Trop
4 Catacombs
2 Rainforest
2 Delta
4 Wasteland /18

Side:
3 Vendetta
1 Darkblast
1 Abrupt Decay
3 Spell Snare
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Krosan Grip
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library /15

[Koby]

Playing some spot discard or Hymn to Tourach would be one of the better ways to utilize the BUG shell to play Tempo. Mirroring card for card selections from RUG -> BUG by replacing Bolt with Ghastly Demise doesn't achieve the same effect since Bolt is more versatile and can be used to close a game out.

BUG is inherently 0.5-1 turn slower than RUG for this reason, and having Discard to offset the reach is a good way to capitalize on the slower game plan.

[sdematt]

I'm always a fan of more discard, but I'm sure you already know this.

How did you feel playing without Force of Will?

-Matt

[Asthereal]

That's funny. I'm only switching to black because I can now consistently beat Counterbalance. And Bob and the removal that actually kills Knights are nice as well.

Discard doesn't affect the board state and becomes a terrible topdeck in the mid/lategame. In addition, you can only cast discard as a sorcery, which makes decisions with hands like Thoughtseize + Stifle pretty awkward. I want to keep my mana open for Stifle, but I also want to Seize as soon as I can, so I know what I'm up against and can make informed decisions about my next plays. If I Thoughtseize, my opponent will fetch and Stifle may be a dead card in my hand for a couple of turns. If I keep mana open, I may not be able to Stifle anything and may have wasted the opportunity to cast Seize... That makes me not like discard spells very much. I'd rather just respond when my opponent goes nuts. A matter of style, I guess. :wink:

Actually, playing without Force of Will isn't such a bad idea. I side out Forces pretty often, and they are card disadvantage. They also make Bob kill me more quickly. Perhaps if I were to follow your advise and add discard anyway, I'd take out the Forces.

[Tokugawa]

Forgive me for nitpicking, but why is this report in the Aggro/Tempo thread?
You play no proper beatsticks, only 3 Wastelands, no Stifles and 21 lands + Deathrite Shaman.
The sideboard even has Thrun and Vraska. That defnitely is not a tempo oriented deck. :tongue:
Bob is nice though in the current meta. I'm thinking about playing the following:

Guys:
4 Delver
4 Goyf
4 Confidant /12

Spells:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Stifle.
3 Spell Pierce
4 Ghastly Demise
3 Abrupt Decay /30

Lands:
3 Sea
3 Trop
4 Catacombs
2 Rainforest
2 Delta
4 Wasteland /18

Side:
3 Vendetta
1 Darkblast
1 Abrupt Decay
3 Spell Snare
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Krosan Grip
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library /15

Ghastly Demise cannot kill shaman, bob or (consistantly kill)Knight. It is hard to afford so many "dead" cards in maindeck.

[Whippoorwill]

Forgive me for nitpicking, but why is this report in the Aggro/Tempo thread?
You play no proper beatsticks, only 3 Wastelands, no Stifles and 21 lands + Deathrite Shaman.
The sideboard even has Thrun and Vraska. That defnitely is not a tempo oriented deck. :tongue:
Bob is nice though in the current meta. I'm thinking about playing the following:

I figured it fit here best since it does say Aggro in the title. I agree that the version I'm running isn't Tempo based.

The lack of 'proper beatsticks' is what I've been working on. The current clock is slow, but not nearly as slow as you may think thanks to Deathrite.

I'm not a fan of Stifle currently as I'd rather be acting instead of reacting (at least in BUG). Same reason I took the Forces out.

Vraska was just a last minute fun addition to try against control, it will obviously be cut. Thrun is quite good in the Miracles matchup as their only out to it is Terminus. If they Verdict you can regenerate and they can't Counter/StP/Detention Sphere it.

Bob is very good and my wins were mainly off his card advantage.


I'm always a fan of more discard, but I'm sure you already know this.

How did you feel playing without Force of Will?

-Matt

I didn't really miss them at all. The addition of Bob and more discard put my opponents on the defensive more often than not. I do like the thought of Hymn, so I'll likely try those at some point. Do you think they would be better in the main or side?

[sdematt]

In Junk I'm playing them in the side, but that's for the matchups where I'm turning into the Tempo deck. I think since you ARE the tempo deck, why not try them in the maindeck as a 3-of and go from there?

-Matt

[Asthereal]

Ghastly Demise cannot kill shaman, bob or (consistantly kill)Knight. It is hard to afford so many "dead" cards in maindeck.
What would you suggest as removal that costs 1 and kills Merfolk lords, Mother of Runes, Delvers and so on? Disfigure?

[Tokugawa]

What would you suggest as removal that costs 1 and kills Merfolk lords, Mother of Runes, Delvers and so on? Disfigure?

Disfigure is seen recently in some tournament decklists. Dismember could also be treated as an "1-drop" spell.

[Koby]

What would you suggest as removal that costs 1 and kills Merfolk lords, Mother of Runes, Delvers and so on? Disfigure?

Darkblast

[mike1987]

Regarding creature combination, what creatures are ideal for bug delver and in what number. Seems there are many options nowadays.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf

Think the above eight is a must.

That leaves us with dark confidant, nimble mongoose, deathrite shaman or even tombstalkers. What are your opinions on this matter?

[Water_Wizard]

Regarding creature combination, what creatures are ideal for bug delver and in what number. Seems there are many options nowadays.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf

Think the above eight is a must.

That leaves us with dark confidant, nimble mongoose, deathrite shaman or even tombstalkers. What are your opinions on this matter?

Baleful Strix also deserves a mention. So does Death's Shadow. Snapcaster Mage and V. Clique are also contenders.

I wouldn't say Delver is an automatic 4-of because it requires you to keep your sorcery/instant count high.

Dark Confidant is nice, but you may not want to run FOW with it. Or you can run SDT and/or a 4 Ponders and/or Sylvan Library to help fix the top of your deck. You also can't run Tombstalker and DC together.

Mongoose and Tombstalker don't play nice together. Neither does Mongoose and Deathrite or Deathrite and 'Stalker.

I really like Deathrite right now.

Personally, I like 4 Delver, 4 Goyf, 3-4 Deathrite in a build that runs Stifle, Daze, and Hymn. Clique could fit well in this build. So would Baleful Strix. Clique for a combo heavy meta, Strix for a aggro heavy meta.

[wcm8]

Here's a hypothetical list, needs tweaking:

19 Lands
4 Delver
4 Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker
4 FoW
4 Thoughtseize // Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce // Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Ghastly Demise // Snuff Out


I posted this list on the last page, and am happy to see that both Hatfield AND Signorigni made it to the top 8 at the SCG Open this weekend with a list that has only 4 cards different in the main deck (-1 Snuff Out, -2 Spell Pierce, -1 Deathrite Shaman, +1 Land, +1 Daze, +1 Tombstalker, +1 Sylvan Library). Now we have some solid results to back up my claims and silence the naysayers of Deathrite Shaman.

edit: Actually, 8, since they opted for Hymn to Tourach over Thoughtseize. But I think either card is worth the slot.

Deathrite Shaman is the real deal for BUG. EVERY deck playing black and green (outside of maybe some form of obscure combo) should be playing this card, even 'tempo' versions. It allowed Dan to 2-0 against DREDGE in the semi-finals. It is among the most powerful tools for battling against RUG and Snapcaster recursions, and gives BUG the reach needed to close out games that go late. I've also had many games that I was able to use the Shaman to get out of Waste-lock, and fixes mana for awkward spells to cast like Abrupt Decay.

[catmint]

Agree wcm8. I also understimated deathrite when it got spoiled and now he is the main reason to play BUG. Concerning BUG tempo - when people tried to take the RUG template and switch red with black removal I think you probably just got a bit of a more awkward/slightly worse RUG tempo version due to higher cmc & missing reach.

I played deathrite so far a lot in a controllish/midrange shell supporting Jace, but I can see deathrite beeing also strong in delver, since he adresses both problems I listed above (reach/mana). Aside from his other utility which wcm8 mentioned it can also be an effective way to generate tempo advantage using it with Daze & Wasteland.

The question: discard (target/Hymn) vs. stifle vs. Pierce/Snare is deciding. I surely want to attack the hand and if you also play with deathrite & delver you have a lot of early "tap out plays" and stifle becomes really awkward.

Tombstalker is questionable to me. Sure a big flyer is nice, but to me the cost of delve 6 is pretty high. Of course you try to eat the opponents gy first but it happens very regularly that you have to rely on your own with deathrite. I would try clique in this spot - much less body, but utility and to me "cheaper". Especially the UW matchup is where clique is miles better (vs. miracles, jace/bounce, hand control)

What is nice that with 20 lands and 4 deathrite you do have the option of going to a Jace plan from the sideboard if the games go long against UW,... This is something you so far did not have to fear from a delver deck.

Another card I am thinking about is snuff-out. So much potential as an early tempo bomb... but my main concern is that more often than not you will be the control deck vs. Canadian and 4 to the dome will hurt.

I would be interested to hear your experiences against UW. Playing a ton of RUG I know victories come from this little word "shroud". Does proactively attacking the hand before playing creatures really compensate? Also SD.top = ooouch!

[wcm8]

Regarding the UWx matchup:

In general, BUG can be slightly favored if it can land an early threat and deny them the opportunity to stabilize. The main problematic cards are Stoneforge, Lingering Souls, and obviously Jace. All of these strategies can be addressed via the sideboard. Unfortunately, I see that Dan cut a few cards that would have given him the edge in the finals against his Esper opponent (more on this later..), such as Massacre, Dread of Night, Virtue's Ruin, or Engineered Plague. I also think Grafdigger's Cage and/or Scavenging Ooze are worth considering. I also would not discount Thrun, the Last Troll in the sideboard as a potential option against control decks -- their only out is some sort of board sweeper. Maelstrom Pulse in the maindeck in multiples also isn't a bad idea. I also think Thoughtseize is probably slightly stronger in this matchup than Hymn to Tourach, since it can be used earlier and also can 'counter' the main problem of Stoneforge.

Lingering Souls is a card that shouldn't just be ignored. RUG adapted to this problem by playing some number of Sulfur Elemental, along with Forked Bolt. BUG has similar tools.

As for Miracles, Pithing Needle is very good, since it can answer both SDT and Jace. Vendilion Clique is of course fantastic.

Also, regarding Signorigni's finals' opponent: Obviously the guy ripped some obnoxious topdecks at the right time, and this had more to do with the outcome than either deck being favored or his playskill being better. Daniel pretty much had game 3 sealed, if not for his opponent finding, sequentially, the right cards for the scenario at hand.

Finally, a proposal for the deck going forward: If the deck were to play 4 Deathrite Shaman and 1 Volcanic Island, I could see a small red splash for sideboard options such Pyroblast being completely feasible. I have been testing a 4-color RUGB Cascade deck lately, and even there I don't have problems playing into four colors thanks to all the fetch lands and Deathrite's mana fixing. I think this is an idea that warrants consideration for BUG tempo.

[nitewolf9]

Just wanna chime in real quick regarding Shaheen's topdecking abilities. He definitely does not cheat, he's a stand up guy and I've known him for a while, but he might in fact have some kind of pact with the Devil. More on the latter theory once I can finally nail down where he keeps the goat's blood and a seemingly endless supply of young virgins.

[wcm8]

Just wanna chime in real quick regarding Shaheen's topdecking abilities. He definitely does not cheat, he's a stand up guy and I've known him for a while, but he might in fact have some kind of pact with the Devil. More on the latter theory once I can finally nail down where he keeps the goat's blood and a seemingly endless supply of young virgins.

Yeah, I don't want to make any baseless accusations. I'm sure he's a fine player. Regardless, shuffling thoroughly is never a bad idea. It just seemed a bit shady that he was tabbing out and moving around cards that would have been good to cast, not potential fetch targets.

In ANY case, we would all love to hear a report of your exploits! Any notable matches in the Swiss? Any changes to the deck you'd make based on the tournament?

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Those rips were ridiculous...

Dan, was kinda sad we didn't get to see you block an Emrakul with three Tombstalkers this time.

[sdematt]

Congrats, Dan!

Did you guys cut up the Top 8 at all?

-Matt

[nitewolf9]

Thanks! Yeah, we did a top 8 split. Usually a top 8 split isn't enough to be worth it, but with the new prize structure it was a good chunk of change. But I wanted that trophey...

[Richard Cheese]

What do you do about Merfolk besides Googling for the closest Long John Silver's while getting your face smashed by a bunch of 5/5 Islandwalkers? Is it worth boarding Llawans?

[wcm8]

Here's another card that may be ok: Golgari Charm. Wipes the board of all X/1s at instant speed, or can regenerate your creatures if needed.

Regarding Merfolk: This is a matchup that has gotten A LOT better thanks to Shaman and Decay. You'll still want a sweeper or two in the board, as well as some more targeted removal. If we integrate my suggestion of a minor red splash, we also gain access to REBs.

Edit: Here's a hypothetical sideboard for the red splash. This is feasible if you play 4 Deathrite's and fit a Volcanic somewhere in the 20 lands.

3 Pyroblast
2 Sulfur Elemental
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Jace, TMS
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Nihil Spellbomb

The red cards are very powerful against the UWx decks, and those decks do not tend to play Wastelands of their own. Pyroblasts are also strong against the majority of combo decks, as well as other Ux control decks. Sulfur Elemental is good against Maverick and not shabby in other matchups where you need extra pressure. It's just an idea right now, but one that may be worth exploring.

[phazonmutant]

How do you guys feel about 3-4 Engineered Plague in the board? We were having this discussion over in the midrange/control thread and hadn't come to a solid conclusion. The Europeans seem to love it, though.

It seems like it would be good against Maverick and Lingering Souls, two matchups/cards that can be problematic, and also is good against Goblins.


What do you do about Merfolk besides Googling for the closest Long John Silver's while getting your face smashed by a bunch of 5/5 Islandwalkers? Is it worth boarding Llawans?

Resolving multiple Engineered Plagues against fish seems a little bit like a pipe dream, but if it happens, you can shut down the deck. Not sure if that's an actual reason to play EPlague though.

[SirTylerGalt]

Regarding Merfolk: This is a matchup that has gotten A LOT better thanks to Shaman and Decay. You'll still want a sweeper or two in the board, as well as some more targeted removal. If we integrate my suggestion of a minor red splash, we also gain access to REBs.

Edit: Here's a hypothetical sideboard for the red splash. This is feasible if you play 4 Deathrite's and fit a Volcanic somewhere in the 20 lands.

3 Pyroblast
2 Sulfur Elemental
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Jace, TMS
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Nihil Spellbomb

The red cards are very powerful against the UWx decks, and those decks do not tend to play Wastelands of their own. Pyroblasts are also strong against the majority of combo decks, as well as other Ux control decks. Sulfur Elemental is good against Maverick and not shabby in other matchups where you need extra pressure. It's just an idea right now, but one that may be worth exploring.

I like the idea of a red splash. Splashing red in BUG reminds me of Drew Levin's BUGr wizard deck he talked about in this article: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/25051-Twenty-Questions-About-Legacy-And-Some-Dating-Advice.html

I tested the deck for a while on Cockatrice, thinking that the manabase was too greedy... but the 4 Stifle / 4 Snapcaster Mage let you protect your non-basics pretty well. If we add 4 Deathrite Shaman, it's even easier to produce red mana.

Talking about Stifle, I'm interested in trying it in a more "midrange" BUG shell, like Next Level Threshold does. NLT is a more midrange version of RUG Delver that uses Stifle / Wasteland to tempo the opponent while playing threats a little bigger than RUG Delver's. It's fun when you have Jace against an opponent with 2 lands :)

Here are a few recent decklists:
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9391&iddeck=68590
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18865-Deck-Next-Level-Threshold&p=653112&viewfull=1#post653112

It seems like it's pretty easy to port the concept to BUG:


2 Engineered Explosives
1 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
3 Stifle

1 Life from the Loam
1 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 Hymn to Tourach
SB: 1 Liliana of the Veil
SB: 2 Pernicious Deed
SB: 1 Diabolic Edict
SB: 2 Ghastly Demise
SB: 1 Spell Pierce


You could add a Volcanic Island and a few REBs / Pyroblast in the sideboard for the blue matchups. With Volcanic Island + Deathrite Shaman, you can play Engineered Explosives on 4 or 5 :)

[Spike]

How do you guys feel about 3-4 Engineered Plague in the board? We were having this discussion over in the midrange/control thread and hadn't come to a solid conclusion. The Europeans seem to love it, though.

It seems like it would be good against Maverick and Lingering Souls, two matchups/cards that can be problematic, and also is good against Goblins.


I would definitely play two Golgari Charms in these slots. Its our Rough//Tumble at instant speed that also kills Mother of Runes. Besides being a very strong card against Aggro its also a very good card against other decks like Esper for example because all the abilities are relevant in this matchup when facing Supreme Verdict/Explosive/Vindicate, Detention Sphere, Lingering Souls/Snapcaster/Clique... You can also board it against RUG depending on the rest of your sideboard since it kills Library, Mongoose (Shaman keeps them small), Delver of Secrets (not the aberration ofc) and counters Lightning Bolts.

Another little drawback of Plague you have to consider is that against Maverick a Plague on Humans will also knock out your Delvers. Imo the best you can do atm is to stay away from Snuff Out (though its one of my favourite cards but you have to make sacrifices in the current metagame ...) and play Dismember instead, with 2 Golgari Charms and 1-3 Disfigure in the SB (number can vary depending on your local Meta) and 1 Jitte in your 75.

[FubsyGamer]

After seeing the success of the two BUG Delver decks at the SCG Open this weekend, I'm thinking of playing the deck at SCG Vegas this weekend. I'm fairly new to Legacy, and have been playing RUG Delver for the past 6 months or so. I'm really interested in this BUG deck, though, because of the inclusion of Abrupt Decay and the ability to have great sideboard slots. After browsing the lists and reading through the last few pages of this forum, I think this is the deck I might take:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tombstalker

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Snuff Out
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder

2 Bayou
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

I don't have a sideboard built yet, but I like the Jace/Clique plan, a few Red Blasts, and other 'normal' cards, and I'm considering 1 or 2 Golgari Charm.

What are your thoughts on this?

[Water_Wizard]

Not to be blunt, but it looks like you basically copied these lists and incorporated wcm8's red splash suggestion.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=51260
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=51253

So, why not go with wcm8's suggested sideboard?

3 Pyroblast
2 Sulfur Elemental
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Jace, TMS
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Nihil Spellbomb

Personally, I would run Darkblast over Sulfur Elemental. Darkblast has more implications (Elves) and costs less mana. Golgari Charm is another option for this slot. Darkblast has some nice interactions with all of your creatures (you can dredge if you don't like what you see with Delver, the rest of the explanations are self-explanatory). Additionally, I would probably run 2 targeted discard spells (Thoughtseize) over V. Clique or JTMS.

There is nothing wrong with net decking, especially if you are new to the format. I usually net deck and make minor changes based upon my experiences and expected match ups, and I consider myself to be an experienced legacy player.

If you net decked the main deck, why not net deck the sideboard?

The only glaring issue I see with your proposed deck is Wasteland. If you run into a Wasteland, you are screwed. After BUG did well this past weekend, if people adjust to the format, Wasteland will see more play next weekend, due to BUG's notorious fragile manabase. True, Deathrite can produce R (which is a very nice feature). I would run Badlands over Volcanic Island. You need to get to BB on turn 2 to cast Hymn and you can cast turn 1 Deathrite off of Badlands, but not Volcanic Island. This does slow down Daze. It also slows down UU out of the board, like JTMS and V. Clique. However, if you are running Red Blasts, the Red Blasts should fill the roles of V Clique and Jace.

EDIT: Here is the sideboard I would run:
3 Pyroblast
2 Golgari Charm
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pithing Needle (mainly for SDT, also for Jace, Aether Vial, and other random stuff)
2 Thoughtseize
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Nihil Spellbomb

I question the Jitte here and I may replace it with a Sylvan Library (or maybe you should do -1 Deathrite, +1 Library in the main - I can understand your reason for running the 4th Deathrite with the 4-color deck, however, main deck Sylvan Library is so good and it will help you find your colored sources). You may also want to consider Maelstrom Pulse, maybe in place of the Jitte. I would still run Badlands over Volcanic Island because I think you need the B mana more than the U mana.

EDIT 2:
You are also going to update your fetchlands to match your manabase. If you go with Badlands, you'll want lots of lands that will grab Swamps. I would run your mana base like this:
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Badlands
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wastelands

You could cut to 3 UGS and add an extra fetchland if you would like.

[Jessenator]

Tested this deck with a few friends today online. I feel like the red splash isn't needed in my opinion, its good, but it seems too risky! The mana base isn't as good as I thought it was. Having to fetch for Bayou + Underground Sea 80% of the time without Shaman feels incredibly scary. You still can get wasted out of the game. I haven't got to test it, so I'm not going to conclude on how viable it is. What matchups would you want the REBs in for in 3s?? UW Miracles? We already have Decay for that.

But if I was to splash red, I would add a Badlands for sure. Tropical Island is by far probably the worst Dual-land in this deck. What is Red Blast actually needing to counter? Just run more black disruption spells in the sideboard like Duress / Thoughtseize. The deck really doesn't have too many bad matchups except for Lingering Souls / Blade decks. We can always run Krosan Grip for stuff like that.

Still trying to figure out a way to efficiently deal with Lingering Souls, Darkblast is very good, but I don't think siding 1 copy is enough. Multiple Umezawa's Jitte may do it as well!! You are still going to be very behind in card advantage against those. You actually don't lose to Lingering Souls, I think the equipment on the Tokens are what gets you. I think this deck is pretty weak against Maverick or just GWb strategies in my opinion. Mom neutralizes all our removal spells and we really don't have any good 1 CMC removal spells. Maybe we should look out for that since Miracles may be taking a small backseat.

My ideal sideboard.
2 Thoughtseize / Duress
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Darkblast
1 Krosan Grip
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Vendillion Clique
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Dismember -> feel like its better than the Snuff Out if this deck becomes popular.
2 JTMS

Just remembered that Envelop is probably one of my favorite cards in the sideboard in tempo decks. Adding Spell Snares in the Sideboard also really helps against the Stoneblade decks.

[bartmanqc]

Dread of Night is good against Lingering souls and also maverick/Death and taxes

[catmint]

Still trying to figure out a way to efficiently deal with Lingering Souls, Darkblast is very good, but I don't think siding 1 copy is enough. Multiple Umezawa's Jitte may do it as well!! You are still going to be very behind in card advantage against those. You actually don't lose to Lingering Souls, I think the equipment on the Tokens are what gets you. I think this deck is pretty weak against Maverick or just GWb strategies in my opinion. Mom neutralizes all our removal spells and we really don't have any good 1 CMC removal spells. Maybe we should look out for that since Miracles may be taking a small backseat.

Darkblast is horrible versus souls. You have to give up 3 draw steps to kill 4 tokens trading 4 to 1!!!

I dont think souls is a big issue due to
1) lack of popularity
2) jitte being the bigger problem with is answered bydecay
3) Maelstrom & deed as 3cmc sweepers for tokens
4) deathrite's ability to remove souls from the yard.

If Maverick & souls is popular you could argue to run Virtues Ruin (also hits 4/4 angels and knights, but costs 4 under thalia!) or Dread of Night (which i would prefer), but Pulse & deed are more versatile cards.

My thoughts on the removal issue:
1cmc removal is key for mother & lackey - ghastly demise is not a good option anymore due to deathrite. Disfigure is probably second best hitting "everything" except for monsters. Big creatures have to be dealt in another way altough disfigure might be a good combat trick at times.

[Water_Wizard]

Golgari Charm is our answer to Lingering Souls. Or Tombstalker. Still not sold on Tombstalker.

[wcm8]

Regarding REB/Pyroblast: The red inclusion definitely eats into the sideboard space, and ultimately may not be worth it. But the value of this card for a tempo deck can't be understated. It's a one-mana instant that can answer game-winning cards on the stack -- Snapcaster Mage, Vendilion Clique, Show and Tell, Jace, etc. It also has value in that it can also answer blue permanents in play, something that neither discard nor counterspells can achieve. While it is true BUG has alternative answers to problems via cards like Maelstrom Pulse, such cards tend to be clunky and often get met by a Spell Pierce. REB is incredibly versatile and powerful in a format centralized around blue cards.

I agree that Badlands would probably be the superior Dual for this tech.

This is just speculation for now, but with the stability of colored mana Deathrite provides, White is another option on the table for a sideboard splash. Unfortunately, I don't think white really offers anything powerful enough to justify its inclusion. Maybe in some bizarro future world where the meta is full of artifact/enchantment decks, Serenity may be an option. Lingering Souls is randomly awesome. Just throwing the idea out there for future reference.

I also think that the sideboard should definitely run at least 1 Jace, leaning towards two. In some matchups, you're going to get forced into the long game and there's no better card for this than Jace. Thanks to Deathrite, casting Jace won't be as problematic as it used to be and won't necessitate sideboard space for Life from the Loam (although this card certainly isn't a bad option). I could also imagine the deck going more all-in on the planeswalker plan and running 3, cutting most of the maindeck creatures and bringing in more removal.

A question for the deck going forward is regarding Thoughtseize vs. Hymn to Tourach. Obviously Hymn worked well for Dan and Alix this past weekend, but I've always felt that Thoughtseize was the superior card outside of aggro-heavy metagames. I feel like a turn 1 Thoughtseize is generally a more powerful play, as even a resolved turn 2 Hymn isn't guaranteed to hit the most problematic card (and resolving it against a format full of Stifle, Daze, and Spell Pierce isn't always that likely). If your opponent is holding a Force of Will and protecting a super-important card, Seize will achieve the same thing for 1-mana less. I also feel that the knowledge of your opponent's hand is useful in terms of sequencing your next few lines of play.

edit: here is a link to my sideboard option guide. I will update this periodically as new cards are printed.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?11605-DTB-Team-America-(Aggro-Tempo-Thread)&p=620813&highlight=#post620813

[FubsyGamer]

Not to be blunt, but it looks like you basically copied these lists and incorporated wcm8's red splash suggestion.
I'm sorry if I implied anything different. I didn't mean to try to sound like I had brewed up something all on my own, I really did just take the decks that were successful, tweak 2 or 3 cards to add the splash of red, and then post the list. I'm looking to see if people thought it was 'ready' for this weekend.

Thanks for your other comments, they were very helpful :)

[wcm8]

Frontier Sideboarding: Four-Color Control

Thanks to the mana fixing that Deathrite Shaman provides and the flexibility of the fetch/dual-lands, it is entirely feasible to include a minor splash into a fourth color as a sideboard option. Obviously, this is contingent on a few factors: 1) the deck you are bringing the card in against is unlikely to be running Wasteland or other forms of mana disruption of its own; 2) the card you are sideboarding is very light on colored-mana requirements, ideally requiring only one colored mana; 3) the card is high-impact enough to make it worth it to de-stabilize your mana base AND does not have an equivalently-powerful option available in Black, Blue, or Green.

So for example, Path to Exile is a card that is fantastic against RUG but fails the first criterium since they run Wasteland, as well as the third criterium since Black has plenty of removal options that are powerful enough. Grim Lavamancer is a great card that unfortunately fails the second criterium since it is mana intensive (and it also interferes with your other creatures, as well as failing the first since the majority of aggressive decks run Wasteland). Serenity, while certainly high-impact, is an example of a card that fails the third criterium since Pernicious Deed exists.

Although Team America is primarly a Blue-based control deck, many of the most important cards in the deck require Black to play. Thus, when deciding which dual land to squeeze into your mana base, you may want to consider either Badlands or Scrubland instead of Tundra or Volcanic Island. Accordingly, adjust the fetchlands for the appropriate splash: either Misty Rainforest or (more likely) Verdant Catacombs to go along with your Polluted Deltas.

Red

Pyroblast, Red Elemental Blast: Considering how Blue-centric Legacy is, having a one-mana instant that both counters and destroys any Blue spell (at ANY stage of the game, not just in the early stage) is incredible. A big draw in playing RUG aside from burn is gaining access to REB. Jace is a card that traditionally gave BUG fits, as our threats are a bit more fragile and we don't have burn to kill the format's best planeswalker. Many of the format's best control decks lean heavily on resolving Jace to establish control and eventually win the game, and also commonly do not play Wastelands of their own. There are plenty of other problematic blue control cards: Snapcaster Mage, Brainstorm, Counterbalance, Vendilion Clique, Detention Sphere, various counterspells, etc. REB can give us an additional edge in these sorts of matchups to supplement our discard, counterspells and mana denial. REBs are also useful against most combo decks that are popular, as they tend to feature cantrips and game-winners such as Show and Tell or Time Spiral.

A minor point, but worth mentioning: Pyroblast is perhaps ever so *slightly* better for this deck, as you can burn it on a non-blue permanent in order to fuel Deathrite Shaman or Tombstalker.

Ancient Grudge: The two-for-one and minimal mana cost is what sets this card ahead of green artifact removal options. It's also worth noting that even if it gets pre-emptively discarded, the card remains ready for use at a later time -- useful against Esper Blade which usually runs discard of their own. It's a high impact card that's worth considering against Stoneblade and Affinity, and really anything that runs plenty of artifacts. Also, unlike Abrupt Decay, it *can* hit artifact lands such as those in Affinity's mana base or Mishra's Factory.

Sulfur Elemental: I think that Dread of Night or Massacre are probably better for a deck with access to black, but it's worth considering the Elemental since he also doubles up as uncounterable, instant-speed threat. Useful against UWx decks with their near-infinite removal and counterspells, as well as for answering Lingering Souls. This sort of card is definitely a metagame consideration.

White

Lingering Souls: This is a one-card army. I could see this being played along with Liliana of the Veil, Umezawa's Jitte, or Intuition. Unfortunately, many of the decks that you'd really like this for are often playing Wastelands and may cut you off of your white source. This is probably the only card currently available that would make a white splash a serious consideration.

Timely Reinforcements: An even stronger form of anti-aggro. Not quite as powerful as LS in my opinion though.

Ethersworn Canonist: I think we have alternative methods of battling Storm-based combo, but just mentioning it for completeness.

Meddling Mage: another wrench in the spokes of combo that doubles as a clock. A unique effect you don't see in other colors.

Please let me know if there's anything worthwhile that I've missed, but be sure that it passes all of the criteria mentioned above to be worthy of serious consideration.

[Water_Wizard]

I also think that the sideboard should definitely run at least 1 Jace, leaning towards two. In some matchups, you're going to get forced into the long game and there's no better card for this than Jace. Thanks to Deathrite, casting Jace won't be as problematic as it used to be and won't necessitate sideboard space for Life from the Loam (although this card certainly isn't a bad option). I could also imagine the deck going more all-in on the planeswalker plan and running 3, cutting most of the maindeck creatures and bringing in more removal.

A question for the deck going forward is regarding Thoughtseize vs. Hymn to Tourach. Obviously Hymn worked well for Dan and Alix this past weekend, but I've always felt that Thoughtseize was the superior card outside of aggro-heavy metagames. I feel like a turn 1 Thoughtseize is generally a more powerful play, as even a resolved turn 2 Hymn isn't guaranteed to hit the most problematic card (and resolving it against a format full of Stifle, Daze, and Spell Pierce isn't always that likely). If your opponent is holding a Force of Will and protecting a super-important card, Seize will achieve the same thing for 1-mana less. I also feel that the knowledge of your opponent's hand is useful in terms of sequencing your next few lines of play.

edit: here is a link to my sideboard option guide. I will update this periodically as new cards are printed.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?11605-DTB-Team-America-(Aggro-Tempo-Thread)&p=620813&highlight=#post620813

I was thinking about the whole Jace / V. Clique sideboard last night. In my edited sideboard, I removed both, opting for 1-cc cards Thoughtseize and Pithing Needle. This deck is already committed to BB for Hymn and Tombstalker. Every other spell is either 1 or 2 cc and requires single colored mana (sometimes in combination for cards like Abrupt Decay). I'm wary to go into the 3-cc and 4-cc threats, especially if they are UU threats.

I think we have two options:
1) Splash red. Keep the sideboard to 1 and 2 cc cards and focus on BB.
2) Keep it 3 colored. Perhaps, you can try to run V. Clique and Jace alongside Hymn and Tombstalker. You'll notice Dan did this, but Alix did not.

If you end up playing a long match and your mana goes unmolested, Jace and Clique are great. However, if you or your mana base are under duress, I think it is potentially fatal to attempt to play Hymn and Tombstalker at BB, Clique at 1BB, and Jace at 2BB in a four-color deck that is also trying to produce G and R.

Thanks for the sideboard options links. They are very thorough and helpful (both the one directly above and the link provide two posts above).

EDIT: Regarding the Hymn/Thoughtseize debate, Alix ran two Thoughtseize in his board (Dan ran 2 Spell Pierce). I originally opted not to answer this question, because I thought it would be too complicated. Here's my list:

4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant

3 Ghastly Demise
4 Inquision of Kozilek
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Liliana of the Viel
3 Hymn to Tourach

4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest


Sideboard

4 Flusterstorm
3 Spell Pierce
4 Engineered Plague
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Maelstrom Pulse


Originally, I started testing out Delvers. However, I found that my sorcery/instant count wasn't high enough to readily support flips, so I changed to Nimble Mongooses. I was running a 2/2 Inquisition of Kozilke/Thoughseize split, but I recently switched to all IoKs because the Thoughtseize life loss was relevant and I wasn't finding targets that I couldn't take with IoK. Life loss is a little more precious to me since I am running Bob. I like Liliana, I find she locks games down, just my personal preference.
I didn't want to run Force of Will with Dark Confidant, so I cut all main-deck counterspells. If I face strong combo, I can remove the 3 Ghastly Demise and 4 Abrupt Decay for the 7 counters in the board (assuming my opponent doesn't do something cute like bring in Defense Grid. I could also cut the Mongooses and leave the Abrupt Decays in). The Engineered Plague are solely for a Goblin infestation I am dealing with ;)
So, my perspective on Thoughtseize vs. IoK is tailored to the build that I am running. One of the reasons I keep the two Pulses in the board is to hit larger targets that I can't get with IoK or Abrupt Decay.
The only card I really don't like in this deck is Ghastly Demise. I've thought about running Disfigure. Vendetta. Snuff Out. Darkblast. Go for the Throat. Maybe I'll try a 1 Darkblast two Go for the Throat split. Or Dismember, as NiteWolf suggests below. We are going for BB already.


I'm sorry if I implied anything different. I didn't mean to try to sound like I had brewed up something all on my own, I really did just take the decks that were successful, tweak 2 or 3 cards to add the splash of red, and then post the list. I'm looking to see if people thought it was 'ready' for this weekend.

Thanks for your other comments, they were very helpful :)

No worries. Sorry if I offended you. I'm not trying to be the heavy at thesource. :)

Given your list above, I still wonder if you would like to run 3 Deathrite and 1 Sylvan Library. Other than that, the list looks solid. Golgari Charm and Ancient Grudge along with REB allows you to move away from Maelstrom Pulse in the board, because you already have a lot of spells that destroy permanents.

[nitewolf9]

If you want to try a 4 color build, I would suggest committing a bit more to the idea and running a true 4 color deck. I feel this would require you to cut wasteland in order to work, but if it offers enough power it could be worth it.

That being said, I don't think the deck has any holes that can't be filed in the BUG color combination. The only thing I really wanted to have access to during the tournament was Krosan Grip, and I am going to be playing a couple of copies in my board moving forward. Batterskull is still obnoxious, and K. Grip tells people exactly what they can do with that card. Hitting top is also very relevant against miracles.

I was unimpressed by clique all in all on the day, but was certainly happy to have it against show and tell during the top 8 match. I would have won without it but it is clearly a great option for combo decks. The problem is that combo is not really that much of a presence outside of maybe dredge, and we aren't exactly weak to those strategies to start with.

Also, Dismember's stock will probably rise over Snuff Out if more and more people decide to play BUG. That is probably the only thing I would change in the main deck.

[Telperion]

Here's my list:

4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant

3 Ghastly Demise
4 Inquision of Kozilek
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Liliana of the Viel
3 Hymn to Tourach

4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest


Sideboard

4 Flusterstorm
3 Spell Pierce
4 Engineered Plague
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Maelstrom Pulse




Not to pick on your list in particular but I am curious as to how people are blurring the line between BUG control and tempo. The lack of synergy between shaman and goose? The presence of hymn but not daze? It seems wrong to me to hit your opponent over the head with a hymn and then proceed to nibble them to death. Does anyone else feel that going big with Jace of our own is just superior to threatening Jace with a mongoose in these colors?

Signorini, I noticed you were jamming your cantrips extremely aggressively, do you think 3 Tombstalkers might be too many or would Thoughtscour be an efficient use of resources?

[nitewolf9]

Three Tombstalkers is the right number after lots of testing. He is the most robust threat in the deck right now and I want to see a copy almost every game. As far as cantrips are concerned, during one match I can remember having multiple brainstorms in hand, and trying to find some early action with them. In the early game if you are threat light or just want to hit someone with Hymn, it is correct to aggressively use your cantrips to generate some tempo. There is such a thing as being too patient. This is not really a control deck, you need to put pressure on people.

Thoughtscour is just not very good. It offers you no selection and really doesn't do anything but cost you a mana. On rare occasions it might enable 2 Tombstalkers, but I would play Preordain any day over that card. The deck doesn't have much trouble casting a timely Stalker as it is.

[phazonmutant]

Moving forward, it seems like the graveyard is a resource that will be attacked more and more. Deathrite mirrors are going to become more common, good UW Miracles builds already include at least 2 Relics and/or Rest in Peace in the 75, etc.

Given that, is Tombstalker really going to be a viable card in the future? I guess the only profitable answers are StP, Jace, and Baleful Strix (love that guy!), but just casting him seems hard.

[Water_Wizard]

Not to pick on your list in particular but I am curious as to how people are blurring the line between BUG control and tempo. The lack of synergy between shaman and goose? The presence of hymn but not daze? It seems wrong to me to hit your opponent over the head with a hymn and then proceed to nibble them to death. Does anyone else feel that going big with Jace of our own is just superior to threatening Jace with a mongoose in these colors?


Blurring the line between control and tempo because the deck runs 2 Liliana?

There is also a lack of synergy between Shaman and Goyf and Shaman and Tombstalker. The lack of synergy between Shaman and Goose has never been an issue. Usually, you can eat lands your your opponent's graveyard - we play in a fetch, non-basic, and Wasteland heavy environment. Eating sorceries and instants comes later in the game, and you can eat those out of your opponent's graveyard, too.

I originally tried Delver in this build, but I was having trouble with blind-flipmanship. You look at Signorini's and Hatfield's lists - 20 lands, 14 creatures, 1 Sylvan Library, and 25 instants/sorceries (with 4 Brainstorms and 4 Ponders). Without a cantrip, you've got about 50% odds to blind flip (considering that you will be thinning your deck with fetches). The build I am running has 20 lands, 15 creatures, 1 Sylvan Library, 2 Lilianas and 23 instants/sorceries. I just wasn't flipping Delver enough, so I switched to Mongoose. So far, it has worked very well.

Hymn and Daze? I don't see how the two are mutually exclusive? I think the lack of Stifle and Daze seems more prominent to me. I'm also running 4 1-cc discard spells, which can let me know if my Daze is good or not. Could you explain this? I don't see why Hymn/Daze is overly strong in unison- they are both solid cards, but I don't see why they are particularly good together.

Jace of our own is good, but I think this is where we begin to blur the lines between tempo and control. If BB1 Liliana blurs the line, does UU2 Jace push it over the line? This deck already wants to have BB for Hymn and Tombstalker (which I'm not running in my build). Liliana seems like a natural way to lock down the game. If Jace is a concern, I think the best bet is splashing R for REB/PB. I noticed Nitewolf ran Clique and Jace, Alix opted for Pithing Needle and other small-costed options. I am interested as to the decisions that led each player to make their sideboard.


Moving forward, it seems like the graveyard is a resource that will be attacked more and more. Deathrite mirrors are going to become more common, good UW Miracles builds already include at least 2 Relics and/or Rest in Peace in the 75, etc.

Given that, is Tombstalker really going to be a viable card in the future? I guess the only profitable answers are StP, Jace, and Baleful Strix (love that guy!), but just casting him seems hard.

I think you hit the nail on the head - RiP wrecks this deck. RiP may be a very good reason for running Delver, because without Delver, Goyf, Goose, Tombstalker, and Deathrite are all neutered. Even after Abrupt Decay, the graveyard is still only contains 1 card.

[Richard Cheese]

Three Tombstalkers is the right number after lots of testing. He is the most robust threat in the deck right now and I want to see a copy almost every game. As far as cantrips are concerned, during one match I can remember having multiple brainstorms in hand, and trying to find some early action with them. In the early game if you are threat light or just want to hit someone with Hymn, it is correct to aggressively use your cantrips to generate some tempo. There is such a thing as being too patient. This is not really a control deck, you need to put pressure on people.

Thoughtscour is just not very good. It offers you no selection and really doesn't do anything but cost you a mana. On rare occasions it might enable 2 Tombstalkers, but I would play Preordain any day over that card. The deck doesn't have much trouble casting a timely Stalker as it is.

How did you feel about the singleton Library and Snuff Out? The list you guys ran is nearly identical to what I've been testing, but I have a couple Grisly Salvage in those slots. I'm not totally sold on it yet, but I do like that it digs really deep for land or creatures, and I almost always want more of one of those, and it powers out Tombstalkers like nobody's business. So far at least, it's been a really solid cantrip in that regard.

Also, care to weigh in on Hymn vs. Thoughtseize?

[nitewolf9]

Library beats control if it resolves, and I really like having the 5 removal spells in the maindeck, probably going to dismember instead of snuff out. Salvage does seem interesting though. I'm not sure how to evaluate it because I haven't really played with the card before, but it seems like having either a threat or wasteland when you need it could be potent. It's also cute with the sideboard darkblasts.

Hymn is just the more powerful card, and easier to cast with Deathrite. I really enjoy a turn 2 that consists of Waste you, Hymn you off of shaman. Or simply being able to play it early through daze. It also complements the LD alot of the time.

[GtF]

Congrats on the top 8, I was rooting for ya. I've always been a fan of thoughtseize over hymn, but the mana boost you get from deathrite shaman might be enough to make me change my mind. I was thinking that abrupt decay and deathrite shaman are great cards and that I could play this deck again...then I saw Shaheen rip lingering souls and it brought on horrible flashbacks.

[Maximus]

Jace of our own is good, but I think this is where we begin to blur the lines between tempo and control. If BB1 Liliana blurs the line, does UU2 Jace push it over the line? This deck already wants to have BB for Hymn and Tombstalker (which I'm not running in my build). Liliana seems like a natural way to lock down the game. If Jace is a concern, I think the best bet is splashing R for REB/PB. I noticed Nitewolf ran Clique and Jace, Alix opted for Pithing Needle and other small-costed options. I am interested as to the decisions that led each player to make their sideboard.

I don't think it's a matter of keeping to a strong macro strategy so much as it is filling holes. While Jace doesn't kill your opponent, it's kind of like the idiot-proof way to go long. It also helps that most of the decks that go long also get shut out by a Jace, particularly off of shaman on the draw.

I'm also trying Liliana the Game-state Preserver in my board for a similar role, as some decks just can't ever beat a good walker and she fuels stalkers. She looks pretty silly when Jace comes down though.

Dan, your list is packing a relatively heavy green requirement. I haven't really jumped onto the abrupt decay bandwagon yet, a little because I don't like paying 2 mana for an answer but mostly because I dislike exposing green sources. Was that problematic at all? To what extent is it worth the risk?

[Obfuscate Freely]

Abrupt Decay is the first two-mana removal spell you don't have to feel bad about playing in Legacy. It's uncounterable, which is a concise way of saying you won't get embarrassed by Daze every time you spend your second turn trying to kill an attacking Delver. And it's versatile; now we have a Threshold-style deck that has access to a full playset of maindeck Disenchants when it needs it.

I've yet to meet anyone who hates paying two mana for a removal spell more than I do, but Abrupt Decay impressed me. It's definitely better than the Smothers and Go for the Throats we're used to.

As far as exposing green sources goes, I also had similar concerns prior to Sunday, but Deathrite Shaman does a lot of work in this area. I also don't find that you have to cast early Abrupt Decays very often; I think it was wanting to deploy Tarmogoyfs that forced me to expose my green sources most of the time (and if they want to Wasteland you while you're beating their head in with a 4/5, so be it).

[wcm8]

You'll notice in Dan's list that he cut the second Tropical Island in favor of the second Bayou. This, along with 9 fetches and the Shamans, are enough to have consistent and reliable access to Green mana when you need it. I did a bit of testing online with the build with a few tweaks:

-1 Snuff Out +1 Dismember, as per Dan's suggestion

SB:
2 Jace, TMS
2 Krosan Grip
2 Nihil Spellbomb (kind of got the feeling that these may be better off as Tormod's Crypt)
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Thoughtseize
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Dread of Night
1 Massacre
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Darkblast

I went undefeated for the evening, beating Sneak and Show, BUG Control, BG Aggro (essentially TA minus the blue element and more creatures), TES, Death and Taxes, and Mana-less Ichorid. Granted, this is just cockatrice, where the decklists and playskill of the opponents are sometimes dubious at best, but I do think it's a fair indicator of the power level of the deck.

It's amazing how much work that Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman do, essentially giving the deck a 'pre-sideboarded' element by letting you interact with the graveyard and artifacts/enchantments in game 1. This also strengthens the archetype by freeing up some sideboard space for the more troublesome matchups, namely aggro. Beating Dredge game 1 shows how relevant Shaman can be. I was able to use Decay to kill Liliana otV a few times, as well as a Bitterblossom against my BG opponent. Shaman also pulled me out of mana-screw, and let me accelerate into a turn 3 Jace on the draw (which then answer my opponent's Shown Emrakul!) Even against my Storm opponent, Shaman did work by wittling down his life total, keeping Cabal Ritual out of threshold range, and (I'm assuming) cutting off Past in Flames/Ill Gotten Gains as a route to victory. But BUG has always preyed on Storm, so this result is nothing new.

I think Dread of Night is an essential card for the deck right now. It has a low mana investment and can be deployed proactively (unlike options such as Golgari Charm, which need to be held for the right moment -- and costing 3 against Thalia makes it seem pretty bad to me despite its utility). It being a static effect is incredibly relevant as well. Everyone picking the deck up should strongly consider playing at least one copy, and more if their meta warrants it.

I also love Massacre, because even against non-white aggro decks, it still functions as pseudo-Damnation. It's a bit questionable since we play Shaman and Delver, but there are times when you really just need to clear the board of a bunch of critters.

I think Dan may be right regarding a fourth-color splash being unnecessary, although I just wanted to present the option as completely reasonable if the meta ever warrants it. I had tested the red splash on a previous day and had no issues gaining access to Red mana against my control opponents.

We may see decks adapt to Hymn and Decay by playing more Misdirections or Diverts, but this shouldn't be a problem if you try to hold a Daze or FoW for their response. I suppose decks could also try bringing in Leyline of Sanctity, but this card is garbage, since a) they're forced to mulligan into it, b) it only pre-empts about 4 cards in our deck anyways, and c) any further Leylines they draw are a waste. Another approach that control decks may adopt is playing Ancestral Vision, which while a good card, is really only relevant if suspended within the first few turns. TA, unlike other BUG decks, actually has a fast clock. The most frustrating option I could see White bringing in or playing maindeck is Rest In Peace, but this too gets answered by Decay, and we can always just kill them with Delver, Clique, or Jace.

All in all, I feel like TA is going to be a DTB for the forseeable future. Even some of our most dreaded matchups such as Burn or Merfolk don't feel so scary anymore thanks to the new tools at our disposal. Hell, even Choke isn't as big of a deal.

tl;dr: AMERICA, **** YEAH, COMING AGAIN TO SAVE THE MOTHER****ING DAY YEAH!

[Maximus]

Abrupt Decay is the first two-mana removal spell you don't have to feel bad about playing in Legacy. It's uncounterable, which is a concise way of saying you won't get embarrassed by Daze every time you spend your second turn trying to kill an attacking Delver. And it's versatile; now we have a Threshold-style deck that has access to a full playset of maindeck Disenchants when it needs it.

As far as exposing green sources goes, I also had similar concerns prior to Sunday, but Deathrite Shaman does a lot of work in this area. I also don't find that you have to cast early Abrupt Decays very often; I think it was wanting to deploy Tarmogoyfs that forced me to expose my green sources most of the time (and if they want to Wasteland you while you're beating their head in with a 4/5, so be it).

Yeah thanks for the good explanation. I usually hold my green sources as is for Tarmogoyf/Library but I also don't play anything else in the color (yet). And that's probably wrong for the time being, but whatever it's a learning process.


I've yet to meet anyone who hates paying two mana for a removal spell more than I do, but Abrupt Decay impressed me. It's definitely better than the Smothers and Go for the Throats we're used to.

Nah you've met me before, but we talked about the greatness of Tidal Influence instead. Up until now I've been meaning to play with and learn from you guys in DC but Wednesday night classes kind of ruin that. I'd like to go over it more with you and Dan in the next few weeks.

[sdematt]

It's amazing how much work that Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman do, essentially giving the deck a 'pre-sideboarded' element by letting you interact with the graveyard and artifacts/enchantments in game 1.

So true, as I've been trying to profess in Junk. Also, Sylvan Library is a tank against Control, in my Team America build, I'll be running two, even if I see it a bit too often.

-Matt

[wcm8]

A minor suggestion to Dan's build I'd make:

-1 Delver of Secrets
+1 Deathrite Shaman

Rationale:
-While this does lower your blue count, you still have a pretty healthy number of 19 blue cards, with potentially more in the board to pitch to FoW.
-Delver is not *quite* the powerhouse here as he is in RUG. Without Burn and Spell Pierces, one Delver is not typically enough to 'get there' against most opponents.
-This deck does not have quite as high of a density of instants/sorceries to consistently flip Delver blindly. Delver is often better as a turn two drop set up with a Ponder/Brainstorm. Delver is less threatening as a one-drop and can go unanswered for a period of time, whereas many decks can't afford to let a Shaman go unchecked. If I am holding both cards in hand on the play, I personally tend to play the Shaman first unless I know I'm up against combo.
-Shaman can be cast off of a Bayou. Those awkard Bayou, Wasteland + 5 spells hands are more keepable if you have a Shaman to deploy.
-Shaman provides graveyard disruption, mana-fixing and acceleration, helps you play around Daze, provides life-gain and even functions as an 'unblockable' threat (though at a slightly slower rate of damage). Delver just turns sideways.
-Shaman is a superior turn one 'answer' to cards like Goblin Lackey and Nimble Mongoose.
-A minor point: Shaman doesn't die to Snuff Out, Darkblast or Ghastly Demise, and also survives Engineered Explosives or a Deed activation on zero.
-Playing a full playset increases your density of graveyard hate, potentially freeing up some sideboard space. Additionally, it makes a sideboard with higher-costing bombs a more reasonable choice.

I would argue that Deathrite Shaman is the superior one-drop for this deck for all of the above reasons. I would also not want to cut another card or a land to fit the fourth Shaman in, but after looking at the list Delver honestly feels like the weakest link in the strategy (though is still strategically important and probably belongs in some number for the tempo build -- though cutting Delver entirely in favor of 2 Cliques and another card is a potential option...). The other option I would consider is cutting a Tarmogoyf, however Goyf is just consistently a powerful threat that is needed for a variety of reasons I won't go into here.

[catmint]

Agree with a lot that you say wcm8.

Here is I think what's going on:

People know Delver is nuts due to RUG's sucess
People realize BUG is strong with Decay and Deathrite
People want to play BUG with Deathrite & Delver and create decks with a higher creature & permanent count.
People realize Delver is not that strong anymore -> no natural flips and "conflicting" turn1 plays with thoughtseizes or deathrite.

People realize BUG has to offer such a strong lategame compared to RUG including supreme graveyard, hand, board & stack control as well as card advantage that it is not necessary to build a deck around delver closing the games fast/keeping opponents in the early game, but that favourable gamestates can be achieved accelerating into "good/grindy" stuff like (snapcaster mage, confidant, loam, library, jace, baleful strix, liliana, shardless agent,...).

If you check TCdecks (Decks: Team America & BUG control; yes they are in the process of separating), you will see that in November already a majority of decks choose not to run Delver.

[FubsyGamer]

Agree with a lot that you say wcm8.

Here is I think what's going on:

People know Delver is nuts due to RUG's sucess
People realize BUG is strong with Decay and Deathrite
People want to play BUG with Deathrite & Delver and create decks with a higher creature & permanent count.
People realize Delver is not that strong anymore -> no natural flips and "conflicting" turn1 plays with thoughtseizes or deathrite.

People realize BUG has to offer such a strong lategame compared to RUG including supreme graveyard, hand, board & stack control as well as card advantage that it is not necessary to build a deck around delver closing the games fast/keeping opponents in the early game, but that favourable gamestates can be achieved accelerating into "good/grindy" stuff like (snapcaster mage, confidant, loam, library, jace, baleful strix, liliana, shardless agent,...).

If you check TCdecks (Decks: Team America & BUG control; yes they are in the process of separating), you will see that in November already a majority of decks choose not to run Delver.
I like the idea of an extra Deathrite, as I basically always wanted one in my opening hand. My only worry with cutting a Delver is going a little bit threat-lite? I tested a lot of games against the UW Miracles deck, and I found they had more than enough removal to make it so I couldn't keep threats on the board, then they ended up locking me out with Jace. Have you guys noticed any sort of trouble with UW Miracles? It could be that I'm not playing the deck right against them...

[Koby]

I think Delver is important to the archetype (in the Tempo/aggro forms) in that it provides a much needed threat. Deathrite is not enough on its own. Goyf and Stalker are relatively late to the party by themselves. Delver gives you that immediate threat in which you can start to spam tempo answers (discard, counters, removal) while clocking them.

I'm tooling around with a list that runs Cliques for added disruption (combo heavy meta) and cutting Sylvan Library and 1 Daze to bump up to 4 Deathrites and adding 2 Cliques. I've also swaped the singleton Snuffout with Maelstrom Pulse as an answer to bigger threats like Jace or Batterskull.

[catmint]

I like the idea of an extra Deathrite, as I basically always wanted one in my opening hand. My only worry with cutting a Delver is going a little bit threat-lite? I tested a lot of games against the UW Miracles deck, and I found they had more than enough removal to make it so I couldn't keep threats on the board, then they ended up locking me out with Jace. Have you guys noticed any sort of trouble with UW Miracles? It could be that I'm not playing the deck right against them...

It's logical - you don't run mongoose. Wihout shroud it is much harder against swords/snapcaster. Problem is that mongoose cannot be played along with deathrite (whoever disagrees should test more :)

[wcm8]

in response to catmint: Yes, but let's not be hasty and jump to conclusions about the other card choices.

I agree that Delver is inferior in BUG for the all of the reasons outlined in my post as well as yours, and realistically might be worth dropping entirely in favor of other choices. BUG doesn't have the reach that Bolts provide, so any amount of "tempo" generated by a few swings of Delver get lost once he's removed. Control decks can still claw back into the game at 3 life without fear of getting Bolted out of the game. RUG is simply the best pure tempo deck the format has to offer, and I'm not sure BUG should really try to emulate that style of play when it has stronger alternative options.

However, this does not mean that traditional cards such as Daze or Tombstalker aren't still valid options.

Daze enables the deck to more safely tap out on its own turns but still play reactively to the opponent. The deck still plays Wasteland, and decks will at the minimum be forced to slow down their big plays by a turn if they want to play around Daze. Daze remains potent in a way that Stifle can not -- you don't have to leave U untapped to represent the threat of the card, and it's (typically) less of a dead draw against most decks.

Tombstalker is your big trump against RUG. He outsizes all of their threats and aside from post-board Submerge or a miser's Dismember, is immune to all of their removal outside of them 2-for-1'ing themselves on bolts. Along with Shaman and Decay (and a slightly higher land count), this matchup has become hugely lopsided in Team America's favor.

A BUG deck that only runs smaller creatures and higher CMC bombs may still have many of the same advantages as TA and additional advantages against some archetypes; however it may have more trouble in other matchups without these two cards. Not having a big evasive threat can be a problem in some of the aggro matchups, and running a higher curve also exposes you to more difficulty in actually resolving those cards against decks packing mana disruption and/or taxing counters.

The beauty of TA is that it can sideboard into the control role as needed with minimal difficulty.

[catmint]

Daze is a valid card discussing in BUG control or "non delver BUG Midrange" (or whatever you want to call it). Also Tombstalker as an alternative threat can be discussed. I would not call it Team America anymore though.

[nitewolf9]

I disagree entirely on the assessment that Delver is an inferior threat in BUG. Deathrite Shaman and Tombstalker provide plenty of reach, and Hymn/Waste/Daze can keep someone on the back foot pretty handily. He costs 1 mana, is blue, and provides the most efficient clock you could ask for. There is a danger of looking at Legacy entirely through the lens of tier 1 strategies; in reality you are usually playing against a different deck almost every round, and I want to be aggressive in game 1. Most of the time RUG's bolts are clearing a path for their guys anyway, unless they are paired against control. Abrupt Decay means you get to kill almost anything in your way.

And Tombstalker is the ultimate burn spell :cool:.

That being said, there are plenty of ways to take this deck in the spectrum of aggro - control. If a more grindy, planeswalker-based BUG is your cup of tea, that is certainly viable. But I think if you want to run the Daze, Hymn, Wasteland, Tombstalker, and Tarmogoyf package, Delver is a no brainer in that strategy.

[wcm8]

...if you want to run the Daze, Hymn, Wasteland, Tombstalker, and Tarmogoyf package, Delver is a no brainer in that strategy.

I agree that Delver is important and can be a viable choice for this deck, but in a lot of ways doesn't Shaman facilitate that aforementioned package better?
-On the play, you can still cast a 2-drop even if you Daze'd their t1 play OR still Wasteland them on your second turn if you played a turn 1 Shaman... the two-drops being Tarmogoyf and Hymn

I guess it comes down to your personal playstyle.

Assuming you won the die-roll and your hand is the following (which is pretty much a god-hand btw..):

Delver
Shaman
Ponder
Verdant Catacombs
Underground Sea
Wasteland
Daze

What is your turn 1 play? I personally would play Deathrite unless I knew my opponent was on combo. I thus have the most options available to me on the second turn. Or at least if they expend removal on Shaman, I'll still have a more aggressive follow-up threat that I can probably set up to flip with Ponder. With Delver as your turn 1 play, you're just hoping that you get that blind flip.

[Julian23]

I'd definitely go for Delver, especially against an unknown opponent, thus maximizing the number of turns where I got a Delver and an "active" Daze to protect it. If Delver doesn't flip on turn2, I'll go ahead and set it up with Ponder, then Wasteland them. If it flips naturally, I'll use Ponder to digg for more Forces/Spell Pierces/Dazes or - depending on my opponents deck Wastelands - then Wasteland them with the one I already got. If I cant Wasteland them because they played a Fetchland and find a Spell Pierce in Ponder, I'll grab that and play a Fetchland of my own. For me, the earliest Shaman comes down is turn3, unless I fail miserably on Ponder.

[Water_Wizard]

Does anyone feel that it is an issue to blind flip or flip Delver?

I'm not advocating cutting Delver (because I don't want to hear all the crap that would come along with it), but I replaced Delver with Nimble Mongoose. I discussed this on the last page and I don't want to bring it up again. The only reason I mention it is because I cut Delver because I was having trouble with flipping it. (It was basically a 1/1).

BUG plays differently than RUG because you have way more 2-cc. Typically BUG lists have 20 lands, 14 creatures, an enchantment, and 25 spells. RUG has 18 lands, 12 creatures, and 30 spells (or 29 spells and 1 enchantment). The spell-differential (25 v. 30) alone isn't a big deal. However, the way the decks play out, combined with the lower sorcery/instant count, does become a big deal. BUG has 9 'free' spells, 15 1-cc spells, and 16 2-cc spells. Compare with RUG that has 8 'free' spells, 30 1-cc spells, and 4 2-cc spells (or 5 if you run Sylvan Library).

On turn 2, I find that I am wanting to cast Hymn or Abrupt Decay or Goyf, so I am faced with a difficult decision between cantripping to set up a Delver flip or launching another threat. Also, with BUG, with cards like Abrupt Decay, feels more reactive than RUG. With RUG, more often, it felt 'right' to cantrip aggressively. With BUG, I'm finding that I like to play my cantrips more conservatively, so that I have the option of going for discard, removal, or a counterspell in the mid-game.

I find that I am cantripping a lot less on turn 2 with BUG, thus my ability to set up a Delver flip is greatly diminished.

@catmint - maybe I need to test more, but I haven't had an issue running both Deathrite and Nimble Mongoose. Obviously RiP cripples you, but I'm able to remove lands and cards from my opponent's graveyard and usually by the time I am grabbing instants and sorceries with Deathrite, there are enough cards in the graveyards to maintain Threshold. I'm also running Dark Confidant and Liliana, so perhaps this helps fuel the graveyards. (And everyone, I don't want to hear that because I am running two Liliana that I am no longer Aggro or Tempo. Running two Liliana may remove the deck from pure tempo, but it certainly isn't mid-range.)

EDIT: Just to summarize, reasons why I find it may be hard to flip Delver in BUG than RUG:

1. Lower instant and sorcery count - 25 in BUG vs. 29-30 in RUG
2. More 2-drops - 16 in BUG vs. 4-5 in RUG (Tombstalker isn't a conventional 2-drop (at least not on turn 2), so perhaps that card can be discounted)
3. More reactive deck - Better to play cantrips more conservatively in BUG to enable you to dig for diverse answers

[Mark Sun]

I played Dan's list at a local tonight and I found the deck to be pretty smooth. I still got crushed by Burn but that was to be expected, otherwise, had solid wins over Punishing Maverick, BUG Midrange, and Junk. Never got to play against Miracles, but I imagine that matchup is pretty brutal. Here are some thoughts, and take into account that this is the first run with the deck, so I'm just figuring out things for myself. It's also just 4 rounds of play, really.

- I didn't really like Delver in the deck, as it looks like it's already being discussed here. I felt like it underperformed and I wanted to cast Deathrite Shaman on turn 1 almost every time, and had a couple of situations where I cast Deathrite over it. I'm going to type a longer paragraph below about it.
- Deathrite Shaman is absurd. 4 of this card, PLEASE?
- Reaching Tombstalker "threshold" was never really a problem. That opinion will likely change with testing against Miracles. The only real graveyard interaction I had to deal with tonight was opposing Deathrite Shaman and a Bojuka Bog from Maverick.
- I would like Krosan Grip out of the board (as Dan has stated already). Batterskull was a pretty big issue, especially when Decay doesn't hit it.
- Clique out of the board felt super good.
- Ooze out of the board had the same issues as it did in RUG; hard to reap its potential unless you had a Deathrite Shaman helping out.

Subbing out Snuff Out for Dismember as well the next time I play it.

Regarding Delver vs. Shaman as the premiere turn 1 play, I rarely get the feeling from an early Delver in this deck that I had when I played RUG (and I played a lot of RUG). It's harder to assume a stable tempo role when your removal spells are 2cc and you are playing a card like Hymn to Tourach. As powerful as it is, the reality of the situation is that discard spells are generally negative tempo which conflicts with your Delver plan. Sure, you can have the Delver/Daze/Hymn hand and draw the nuts each game, but realistically, if you tap out on turn 2 and Delver dies, it feels like such a chore to get yourself back into the aggressor role.

Deathrite Shaman, for me, is very similar to Noble Hierarch in Bant in terms of "tempo". It's designed to accelerate you into doing things a turn earlier, and has great synergy with Daze. But the tempo you gain is based on board position, not damage, like Delver is designed to gain you. The reason Delver was so good in RUG is that you had the reach to combine with it. I'm just not sure if you can match that in this deck. I would rather play a more midrange Daze shell with 4 Deathrite Shaman and maindeck Vendilion Clique.

These are just my opinions, and I obviously welcome the discussion. Perhaps my perspective could be a bit off.

[catmint]

Deathrite Shaman, for me, is very similar to Noble Hierarch in Bant in terms of "tempo". It's designed to accelerate you into doing things a turn earlier, and has great synergy with Daze. But the tempo you gain is based on board position, not damage, like Delver is designed to gain you. The reason Delver was so good in RUG is that you had the reach to combine with it. I'm just not sure if you can match that in this deck. I would rather play a more midrange Daze shell with 4 Deathrite Shaman and maindeck Vendilion Clique.

These are just my opinions, and I obviously welcome the discussion. Perhaps my perspective could be a bit off.

Absolutely agree - The comparison with Bant Aggro fits very well. The scariest part of it this acceleration/tempo gain was that it could drop pretty diverse threats (Vendilion, Stoneforge, KoR & Jace). Compared to that BUG does not have the supergood white creatures, less acceleration (cause GSZ is not worth it), but more Hand control (which helps a lot vs. combo/control) & Liliana. So the question is what do you want to use your tempo advantage for? I rather snap-back a discard spell or play a vendilion clique followed up with a Liliana/Jace. Of course if you "shred" their hand a 5/5 flyer might ride you to victory as well, but they surely draw more outs to a tombstalker compared to a powerful walker.

[SirTylerGalt]

Absolutely agree - The comparison with Bant Aggro fits very well. The scariest part of it this acceleration/tempo gain was that it could drop pretty diverse threats (Vendilion, Stoneforge, KoR & Jace). Compared to that BUG does not have the supergood white creatures, less acceleration (cause GSZ is not worth it), but more Hand control (which helps a lot vs. combo/control) & Liliana. So the question is what do you want to use your tempo advantage for? I rather snap-back a discard spell or play a vendilion clique followed up with a Liliana/Jace. Of course if you "shred" their hand a 5/5 flyer might ride you to victory as well, but they surely draw more outs to a tombstalker compared to a powerful walker.

If we get rid of Delver, I think it might be interesting to look at Next Level Threshold. NLT does not play Delver, preferring bigger, albeit slower, threats:

4 Tarmogoyf
2-3 Grim Lavamancer
2-3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendillion Clique
2 Jace

We could play something like:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendillion Clique
2 Tombstalker
2 Jace

The deck becomes more midrange, though...

[catmint]

Cutting delver and going midrange you have plenty of options. Some creatures have good defensively and/or offensively quality and/or provide good utility.

A little overview about the creature options:

Deathrite Shaman Supergood utility, decent offensively, bad defensively, a bit GY dependent

Tarmogoyf Very good offensive- & defensively, best cost/body relation in the format

Delver of Secrets Very good offensively, restrictive deck design in terms of instant/sorcery count; Shines early most.

Nimble Mongoose Good offensively, decent defense & good protection; GY dependent

Scavenging Ooze Good utility, offensive & defensive strength situation dependent & "expensive".

Tombstalker Supergood offensive & good defensive - GY dependent

Vendilion Clique Good offensive, very good utility, decent defense.

Baleful Strix Very good defense & utility; bad offense

Shardless Agent Potential for unfair utility; "swingy"; restrictive deck design

Dark Confidant Potential for unfair utility; a bit "swingy"; decent offense, bad defensively; deck design constraints (cmc, SD.top,...)

Snapcaster Mage Supergood utility; decent offense & defense; a bit GY dependent

Bitterblossom Good utility; “swingy”, slow, mediocre offense & defense

Thrun, the last Troll Good offense, defense & protection; expensive

Eternal Witness Good utility; decent offense; a bit GY dependent & expensive

For fun some fancy Ophidian stuff that does not make it to the list. :smile:
Shadowmage Infiltrator
Edric, Spymaster of Trest
Neurok Commando

To me:
Deathrite cannot not support Nimble Mongoose or Tombstalker. Mongoose cannot support Tombstalker or the other way round. Since deathrite is MVP, the other two are off the table for me.

If I play a deck supporting powerful planeswalkers (which is a good thing to do if you run acceleration), good defensive creatures are important to protect the walker. That is what makes Tarmogoyf so good. He fulfills aggro & defensive both roles perfectly.

[wcm8]

I have a ton of thoughts regarding Team America so pardon the Menendian-esque ramblings to follow.

Regarding Delver of Secrets

I've outlined my reasonings against this card for BUG earlier in the thread, but really the main reason is that he's too "fair" for this deck, especially now with the alternative options available. In RUG, you have a minimum of 50% chance of blind flipping the dude, and that deck is also playing Spell Pierces and Stifle to potentiate this sort of threat. RUG is also playing Bolts to finish the job the Delver started. TA can certainly be built to play a similar style of tempo, but then you just become like a worse version of its Red cousin. For Team America, Delver will more often be stuck as a Merfolk of the Pearl Trident instead of as a Snapping Drake. We don't really need Delver as much since we are going to tear chunks of our opponent's life total by 5+ points at a time.

My current suggested decklist takes Dan's list with the following changes:
-4 Delver of Secrets
-1 Snuff Out
+1 Deathrite Shaman
+2 Vendilion Clique
+1 Dismember
+1 Liliana of the Veil

Regarding Deathrite Shaman

I had pretty much given up on TA after the banning of Mental Misstep and instead focused on playing RUG for a period of time. Recently, I had begun testing a Four-Color Cascade deck that played 4 Shamans and 4 Abrupt Decays. That deck is still viable and I may still bring it to a tournament, but what I was finding was that these two Golgari cards were the key to winning so many matchups. A turn 1 Shaman pretty much 'floops the pig' against the Legacy format. He's everything you could hope for in a one-drop. Abrupt Decay was also amazing and was giving plenty of decks fits. Once I began to realize that these two cards were really the key to my success with that deck (even moreso than cascading into Ancestral Visions), I went back to the drawing board with Team America to include both of these. Testing proved my assumptions, and I then posted a list on this thread that was only 4-cards off of the list that Signorigni and Hatfield went on to top 8 the SCG Open a week later.

I don't need to keep gushing about this guy, but I do want to say that I want him in every opening hand if possible and that's why I'm going to play 4. I also would not be surprised to start seeing more and more competitive Legacy decks start including both of these cards, such as in a 4-Color Esper Blade build or Maverick becoming more of a three-color Rock-style deck.

Regarding the 'Spectrum' of Ana (BUG) Decks

Earlier in this thread, I posted a short analysis of how BUG decks lie upon a spectrum of varying strategies, from focused, aggressive tempo, to plodding, inevitable control. Here's a link to that post:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?11605-DTB-Team-America-(Aggro-Tempo-Thread)&p=607885&highlight=#post607885

Dark Thresh - - - Team America - - - BUG Control - - - Deedstill

I think that Dan's list falls pretty far to the left of this spectrum, and the deck that posters like catmint are advocating are further to the right. I myself am testing a list that is somewhere between TA and BUG Control, as I still feel that cards like Tombstalker, Daze, and Hymn are powerful even without the added pressure of a turn 1 Delver.

The thing to keep in mind is that every deck on the spectrum is viable, and which variation is best is largely going to depend upon your expected metagame and personal playstyle. The fantastic thing about Deathrite Shaman is that it makes it so much easier to shift gears to the right side of the spectrum in your sideboard games if the matchup warrants it.

Regarding the Cycle of BUG's success

It begins again. Dan Signorigni makes it to the finals in a high-profile event, more and more people adopt his list, the format is slow to adapt to the new menace, and BUG decks begin crushing tournaments left and right. Gradually BUG players tweak the list to beat the mirror, including maindeck Jace, perhaps a few more lands, adjust the creature base to include more controlling creatures like Snapcaster Mage and/or Dark Confidant, maybe get 'tech-y' and play sideboard cards like Misdirections or Diverts. Short-sighted Legacy "experts" like Drew Levin write about how Tombstalker is "just" a 5/5 Dragon for 2. Other players see an exploitable weakness to the BUG archetype and play cards like Price of Progress, Blood Moon, Rest in Peace, etc. Merfolk with Standstill, or ultra-slow control decks with near-infinite removal enter the scene to prey upon the deck. BUG then falls out of favor until the cycle repeats itself again.

But this time might be different. With the added power of Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay, it's possible that BUG might never fall out of favor the way it has before. BUG is now poised to be the Tier One Deck, since it can be easily configured to beat almost every archetype. The added versatility of Abrupt Decay and maindeck graveyard hate granted by Deathrite Shaman also make its sideboard even more powerful and adaptable.

[Water_Wizard]

Regarding the Cycle of BUG's success

It begins again. Dan Signorigni makes it to the finals in a high-profile event, more and more people adopt his list, the format is slow to adapt to the new menace, and BUG decks begin crushing tournaments left and right. Gradually BUG players tweak the list to beat the mirror, including maindeck Jace, perhaps a few more lands, adjust the creature base to include more controlling creatures like Snapcaster Mage and/or Dark Confidant, maybe get 'tech-y' and play sideboard cards like Misdirections or Diverts. Short-sighted Legacy "experts" like Drew Levin write about how Tombstalker is "just" a 5/5 Dragon for 2. Other players see an exploitable weakness to the BUG archetype and play cards like Price of Progress, Blood Moon, Rest in Peace, etc. Merfolk with Standstill, or ultra-slow control decks with near-infinite removal enter the scene to prey upon the deck. BUG then falls out of favor until the cycle repeats itself again.

But this time might be different. With the added power of Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay, it's possible that BUG might never fall out of favor the way it has before. BUG is now poised to be the Tier One Deck, since it can be easily configured to beat almost every archetype. The added versatility of Abrupt Decay and maindeck graveyard hate granted by Deathrite Shaman also make its sideboard even more powerful and adaptable.

Couldn't have said it better myself!

Your last paragraph is correct - BUG now has more tools to combat hate - Deathrite gives us a colored source in the face of cards like Blood Moon and it also gives us a long game out, causing us not to over-extend on board (plus some nice main-deck gy hate). Abrupt is main deck removal - which is awesome. With a few Grips in the board, we can hit most anything in the format (besides Jace, which is why I still like at least one Maelstrom Pulse).

If the format does begin to shift, then I think that we combat it with planeswalkers (and perhaps V. Clique) - Jace, Liliana, and Garruk Relentless. This shifts the build more towards the 'right,' but it creates diverse threats which cannot be answered by 'infinite creature removal.'

[Water_Wizard]

@ Mark (and others) - are you having any issues with you U count to support FOW?

Cutting Delver, even if we add 1 V. Clique, still leaves our blue count pretty low (17). I like to run at least 18 with FOW and I prefer 19+. I've thought about running Preordain - cutting Delver lowers our 1 drops - so Preordain, Iok, Thoughtseize, Goose (only Preordain helps our U count).

I was also looking at Spell Snare.

[Maximus]

What is your turn 1 play? I personally would play Deathrite unless I knew my opponent was on combo. I thus have the most options available to me on the second turn. Or at least if they expend removal on Shaman, I'll still have a more aggressive follow-up threat that I can probably set up to flip with Ponder. With Delver as your turn 1 play, you're just hoping that you get that blind flip.

With Delver, you're almost always playing to a blind flip. You just accept the inherent luck behind the card when you put it in your deck because playing the flip lottery is better in the long term than is just not playing the card.

Given your example, I would definitely run out the delver turn 1 personally. Delver is going to kill your opponent much better, and you certainly don't need more options with a hand like that.

[Neffy]

@ Mark (and others) - are you having any issues with you U count to support FOW?

Cutting Delver, even if we add 1 V. Clique, still leaves our blue count pretty low (17). I like to run at least 18 with FOW and I prefer 19+. I've thought about running Preordain - cutting Delver lowers our 1 drops - so Preordain, Iok, Thoughtseize, Goose (only Preordain helps our U count).

I was also looking at Spell Snare.

What about Rushing River as a 1-2 off? Im considering it, since it quite nice supported by counters and Seizes/IoKs. Also "takes care" of jace and batter, can feed your shaman by saccing land so you can add one of any color instead if needed and its blue for pitching to FoW :) the 2U is also easier with the Shaman indeck.

[Water_Wizard]

What about Rushing River as a 1-2 off? Im considering it, since it quite nice supported by counters and Seizes/IoKs. Also "takes care" of jace and batter, can feed your shaman by saccing land so you can add one of any color instead if needed and its blue for pitching to FoW :) the 2U is also easier with the Shaman indeck.

It's a good idea and it does answer many of the >3cc permanent problems we may run into.

You mention thoughtseize and iok. What is your list?

The SCG lists were running 4 x Hymn and one of them had 2 x Thoughtseize in the 'board, but neither of them were running 1cc discard main.

[Neffy]

It's a good idea and it does answer many of the >3cc permanent problems we may run into.

You mention thoughtseize and iok. What is your list?

The SCG lists were running 4 x Hymn and one of them had 2 x Thoughtseize in the 'board, but neither of them were running 1cc discard main.

At the moment im considering running this:

3 TS
4 Goyf
4 Shaman
20 lands
4 Daze
4 FoW
4 BS
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Hymn
4 Decay
1 Maelstrom pulse

I am considering if I should go up on the Discard spells by adding 2-4 Thoughtseizes or IoK (or a mix) and take advantage of disruption, which in my eyes equals to the burn of RUG - It gives the opponent a hard time getting stabilized in a game until we can do that ourselves. Goes so great with wastes and especially a turn one Shaman. I also think that Hymn is getting better again, and easier to cast because of shaman and the almost certain BB mana you can generate. I know how well 1CMC removal is topping at the moment, but then why not use both?

Not sure on the Stifles, they could be Spell Pierce or even SPell Snares. (I typically have 3 Spell Pierces in the board, so maybe the latter is a valid option? I mean it does take care of RIPs which i really fear (Of course stifles + decays will do the same thing, but still, thats two for one which hands down is not what we want).
The pulse might go out in favor of mentioned Rivers. I can see situations where you would really benefit from removing flying blockers, so you can finish the game with a TS or returned both a Batterskull and Jitte to the owner's hand (which almost always both are present..).

Maybe a new

3 TS
4 Goyf
4 Shaman
20 lands
3 Daze
4 FoW
4 BS
3 Ponder
3 Spell Snare/Pierce (what are your oppinions here?)
3 Thougtseize
3 Hymn
4 Decay
1 Rushing river
1 Sylvan Library

[wcm8]

Just want to emphasize the importance of Massacre again. The locals have already started adding Mirran Crusader to their Wx decks.

[sdematt]

Just want to emphasize the importance of Massacre again. The locals have already started adding Mirran Crusader to their Wx decks.

Splash White for Swords to Plowshares :wink:

I'm really liking how BUG is shaping up as of late.

-Matt

[Mark Sun]

Just want to emphasize the importance of Massacre again. The locals have already started adding Mirran Crusader to their Wx decks.

LOL, I beat Maverick in the first round of locals on Thursday and they were snap bought as well.

Jace is probably the only out, Sword of Feast and Famine also seems fairly rough. Massacre is probably going to make a comeback, or at least Virtue's Ruin.

[Water_Wizard]

The pulse might go out in favor of mentioned Rivers. I can see situations where you would really benefit from removing flying blockers, so you can finish the game with a TS or returned both a Batterskull and Jitte to the owner's hand (which almost always both are present..).

Maybe a new

3 TS
4 Goyf
4 Shaman
20 lands
3 Daze
4 FoW
4 BS
3 Ponder
3 Spell Snare/Pierce (what are your oppinions here?)
3 Thougtseize
3 Hymn
4 Decay
1 Rushing river
1 Sylvan Library

I would focus on the Spell Snare - it answers a lot of threats in the current meta. The secret is never allowing SFM to resolve, not bouncing a Batterskull once it hits the board. I would keep your Daze count at 4 and I would run 4 Hymns with targeted discard in the board.
4 Daze
4 Ponder
4 Hymn
3 Spell Snare
1 Thoughtseize (with more in board)
0 Rushing River

How has FOW been working out for you? This is the one card that I consider cutting for more threats or disruption. I board mine out most of the time and there isn't much combo running around. I think these slots can be better used for discard and maybe an extra removal spell. What if you ran:
0 FOW
4 Daze
4 Ponder
4 Hymn
3 Spell Snare
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Rushing River (or Snapcaster Mage)

w/ Pierces or Flusterstorms in the board?

[Water_Wizard]

Just want to emphasize the importance of Massacre again. The locals have already started adding Mirran Crusader to their Wx decks.


LOL, I beat Maverick in the first round of locals on Thursday and they were snap bought as well.

Jace is probably the only out, Sword of Feast and Famine also seems fairly rough. Massacre is probably going to make a comeback, or at least Virtue's Ruin.

Do we want Massacre, Virtue's Ruin, or Dread of Night?

I'm leaning towards Dread because it does a better job of answering Lingering Soul's tokens, kills Thalia, SFM can't build tokens with Jitte. I don't think anyone brings in enchantment hate vs. BUG (maybe a Vindicate is all we need to watch out for).

Not to mention Massacre kills our Deathrites and Delvers.

[Cellar Door]

Do we want Massacre, Virtue's Ruin, or Dread of Night?

I'm leaning towards Dread because it does a better job of answering Lingering Soul's tokens, kills Thalia, SFM can't build tokens with Jitte. I don't think anyone brings in enchantment hate vs. BUG (maybe a Vindicate is all we need to watch out for).

Not to mention Massacre kills our Deathrites and Delvers.

I'm gonna probably try a 1/1 split between dread and ruin. A friend of mine who plays stoneblade added crusaders to his list and they are rough. Currently all I have to deal with them is a Jitte out of the board. Dread of Night doesn't really deal with him by itself. Ruin provides us with the effect we need to deal with them without also wiping our own board. Massacre may not be terrible either though, but killing our own guys isn't really what we wanna be doing. That would be more along a BUG control or Team America card I think.

Just curious, what are some sideboarding tips you guys have against maverick? So far the match up seems very dependent upon being on the play. Is there much we can do to swing that in our favor any?

[Water_Wizard]

Just curious, what are some sideboarding tips you guys have against maverick? So far the match up seems very dependent upon being on the play. Is there much we can do to swing that in our favor any?

Tough to say without seeing your deck and sideboard. However, general rules:
1) Daze comes out on the draw; and is questionable on the play. Maverick usually has enough mana, we have removal for their creatures, and Daze is dead in the late game.
2) Force of Will usually comes out on the play and you can leave a couple in on the draw. The only major targets you need to Force are Choke (which a lot of lists aren't even running anymore), StP on a creature you need to keep around, or KotR/GSZ if you don't have a method to kill the Knight (however, with active Deathrite, you may be able to keep KotR pretty small). Also, Scavenging Ooze may be worth a counterspell depending upon the board state and game state.
3) Targeted discard can come out. People may argue this point, but usually, I remove targeted discard vs. 'fair' decks. Hymn also loses value on the draw.
4) All of your removal comes in. The lists that did well at last week's SCG both ran 2 Darkblast, 2 Diabolic Edict, and an extra Snuff Out. Maelstrom Pulse comes in. Umezawa's Jitte, if you are running it. You can also bring in artifact hate for their Jittes.
5) Your flyers are huge. Maverick doesn't have many fliers, besides maybe Scryb Ranger and Linvala out of the board. For this reason, V. Clique is good. Your goal is to land a flyer and ride it to victory.
6) Jace is probably doable on the play, but less-so on the draw.

So, basic breakdown:
Bring in all of your removal (including Jitte) and evasive creatures.
Remove Daze on the draw.
Remove FOW on the play.
Remove some discard.
Aggressively target their mana and mana-producing creatures. You'll also want to remove Mother of Runes, as she will mess up your targeted removal. Virtue's Rain, Dread of Night, or Massacre are all good methods of taking out Mom and Thalia. Darkblast is really good vs. Maverick.
Try to get some early beats in on the ground and then ride Deathrite activations or a flyer to victory.
Your goal is to win by turn 7-8. You want to disrupt them enough to win the game, not to nullify every threat they produce. Maverick is a very mana-hungry deck, so it is best to disrupt their early mana creatures to prevent them from landing their bigger threats. The longer the game goes, the more it swings in Maverick's favor. You are the beatdown.

[Neffy]

I would focus on the Spell Snare - it answers a lot of threats in the current meta. The secret is never allowing SFM to resolve, not bouncing a Batterskull once it hits the board. I would keep your Daze count at 4 and I would run 4 Hymns with targeted discard in the board.
4 Daze
4 Ponder
4 Hymn
3 Spell Snare
1 Thoughtseize (with more in board)
0 Rushing River

How has FOW been working out for you? This is the one card that I consider cutting for more threats or disruption. I board mine out most of the time and there isn't much combo running around. I think these slots can be better used for discard and maybe an extra removal spell. What if you ran:
0 FOW
4 Daze
4 Ponder
4 Hymn
3 Spell Snare
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Rushing River (or Snapcaster Mage)

w/ Pierces or Flusterstorms in the board?

I understand your argument for removing FoW. Im having troubles imagining the deck without them though, but i guess the card disadvantage can often be an issue. FoWs often works fine for me but for some reason it is almost always counter-countered and i often draw them late game with no cards in hand = sucks!
I really like the last list. Removing FoW gives a nice 4 empty spots that often was never considered in the old TA. I typically played 1 MB Darkblast. It really helps fueling both TS, Tarmo and Shaman which is nice - and having a good, fast MB turn-1 answer to mothers/elves is nice. The increased occurance of Mirran Crusader is solved by having the Rushing River which I think is really neat. It is a very nice card to draw late game where much mana isnt needed anyway.

So concludingly it could look like:
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Hymn
3 Spell Snare
2 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Rushing River
4 Decay
1 Darkblast
1 Sylvan Library
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
20 Lands


Btw why arent we running Deed in SB? Because of Shamans? I like the sweeping package of 1 Deed, 1 Dread, 1 Ruin, 1 golgari charm

[Blitzbold]

An interesting build was used to win Magiccardmarket.eu's winter tournament in Berlin yesterday. Despite the bad weather 72 players gathered, and a rather unique build came out on top of a very diverse top 8 including players like SCG's Carsten Kötter.

The deck seems to be a hybrid of Team America and UW Tempo. Being 4 colored it obv. eschews Wastelands, but contains nearly all the powerful tempo spells these colors provide. While the creaturebase contains both our beloved Shaman and some Tarmogoyfs, there's also that nasty Geist of Saint Traft. Athough not evasive himself, he offers quite a beating when coming down turn 2 and presents a very strong offense when combined with all the disruption the deck contains. The manabase is a bit greedy I guess, but obv. it worked out yesterday.


Deathrite by Jasper Grimmer

Lands (19)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra

Creatures (15)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Geist of Saint Traft

Spells (26)
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
1 Sylvan Library
2 Vapor Snag
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder

Sideboard (15)
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Envelop
2 Thoughtseize
3 Lingering Souls


Source including T4 lists: short coverage (https://www.magiccardmarket.eu/blog/coverage/)

[sdematt]

4 Colour? Dear god.

-Matt

[Cellar Door]

Tough to say without seeing your deck and sideboard. However, general rules:
1) Daze comes out on the draw; and is questionable on the play. Maverick usually has enough mana, we have removal for their creatures, and Daze is dead in the late game.
2) Force of Will usually comes out on the play and you can leave a couple in on the draw. The only major targets you need to Force are Choke (which a lot of lists aren't even running anymore), StP on a creature you need to keep around, or KotR/GSZ if you don't have a method to kill the Knight (however, with active Deathrite, you may be able to keep KotR pretty small). Also, Scavenging Ooze may be worth a counterspell depending upon the board state and game state.
3) Targeted discard can come out. People may argue this point, but usually, I remove targeted discard vs. 'fair' decks. Hymn also loses value on the draw.
4) All of your removal comes in. The lists that did well at last week's SCG both ran 2 Darkblast, 2 Diabolic Edict, and an extra Snuff Out. Maelstrom Pulse comes in. Umezawa's Jitte, if you are running it. You can also bring in artifact hate for their Jittes.
5) Your flyers are huge. Maverick doesn't have many fliers, besides maybe Scryb Ranger and Linvala out of the board. For this reason, V. Clique is good. Your goal is to land a flyer and ride it to victory.
6) Jace is probably doable on the play, but less-so on the draw.

So, basic breakdown:
Bring in all of your removal (including Jitte) and evasive creatures.
Remove Daze on the draw.
Remove FOW on the play.
Remove some discard.
Aggressively target their mana and mana-producing creatures. You'll also want to remove Mother of Runes, as she will mess up your targeted removal. Virtue's Rain, Dread of Night, or Massacre are all good methods of taking out Mom and Thalia. Darkblast is really good vs. Maverick.
Try to get some early beats in on the ground and then ride Deathrite activations or a flyer to victory.
Your goal is to win by turn 7-8. You want to disrupt them enough to win the game, not to nullify every threat they produce. Maverick is a very mana-hungry deck, so it is best to disrupt their early mana creatures to prevent them from landing their bigger threats. The longer the game goes, the more it swings in Maverick's favor. You are the beatdown.

Thank you for your advice. This is a huge help!

[metronome2charisma]

It's logical - you don't run mongoose. Wihout shroud it is much harder against swords/snapcaster. Problem is that mongoose cannot be played along with deathrite (whoever disagrees should test more :)

Agreed. mongoose does not work with shaman(i've been playing the deck for a couple months now) people wanna whine about delver being just a 1/1 for a couple turns ? try playing shaman with mongoose.It works sometime..other times you miss damage or can't use shaman for what you want to ...i actually think with all the shamans and r.i.p. around that goyf is going to get worse aswell..

[Water_Wizard]

Btw why arent we running Deed in SB? Because of Shamans? I like the sweeping package of 1 Deed, 1 Dread, 1 Ruin, 1 golgari charm

Please keep me posted of your testing with the deck. I could see the Spell Snare / IoK / Thoughseize spots varying by meta. In a meta with a lot of Esper or Maverick, Spell Snare is very good. However, in a meta with a lot of Omni-Tell or Storm, Thoughtseize, IoK, and even Spell Pierce are probably worth a go.

This deck doesn't run Deed due to how much mana is needed. You need 3 mana to play Deed, and then you need 3 or 4 to blow it up. Tombstalker is the only thing that survives. The decks that love Deed play manlands and planeswalkers and run a high land count with basics. Our deck really wants to cap at 2 lands, maybe 3.

In my opinion, Deed is too slow and goes against this deck's tempo strategy of trying to play 2-3 lands and create a tempo victory.

Deed and Dread are a no-go.

Deed is very good vs. Affinity, and can oftentimes be popped for 0 and 1 and have devastating effects. If Affinity makes a comeback, then I think we run Deed. In the current meta, we have better answers.

[Water_Wizard]

An interesting build was used to win Magiccardmarket.eu's winter tournament in Berlin yesterday. Despite the bad weather 72 players gathered, and a rather unique build came out on top of a very diverse top 8 including players like SCG's Carsten Kötter.

The deck seems to be a hybrid of Team America and UW Tempo. Being 4 colored it obv. eschews Wastelands, but contains nearly all the powerful tempo spells these colors provide. While the creaturebase contains both our beloved Shaman and some Tarmogoyfs, there's also that nasty Geist of Saint Traft. Athough not evasive himself, he offers quite a beating when coming down turn 2 and presents a very strong offense when combined with all the disruption the deck contains. The manabase is a bit greedy I guess, but obv. it worked out yesterday.


Deathrite by Jasper Grimmer

Lands (19)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra

Creatures (15)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Geist of Saint Traft

Spells (26)
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
1 Sylvan Library
2 Vapor Snag
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder

Sideboard (15)
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Envelop
2 Thoughtseize
3 Lingering Souls


Source including T4 lists: short coverage (https://www.magiccardmarket.eu/blog/coverage/)


4 Colour? Dear god.

-Matt

I recently played against two of these decks on MTGO. It was 4-color Deathrite, running everything but red and packing everything but the kitchen sink. I figured it was some group testing for a tournament, which appears to be true. I'm happy they did well. I was able to win both matches on the back of a poor draw by my opponent, land destruction, removal, and discard. Both versiosn I played against were running SFM, Jace, and Liliana (I never saw GoST).

4-color is cool and I'm going to give it further review. However, it is very dependent upon Deathrite and having lands in the graveyard for colored-mana generation. If you can disrupt their Deathrites, then they are running a 4-color deck with a fragile manabase.

Thanks for sharing this list!

[Water_Wizard]

I've been fooling around with the 4-color list. It should probably have it's own thread, but until it does, let's discuss it here.

What do you think the Cavern of Souls in the board is for? None of the creatures in the main deck share a creature type and the cards in the whole deck that do are Delver and the singleton Clique out of the board (Wizard). I can only imagine that the Cavern is another way to land Deathrite on turn 1. What do you think?

Given the list above, how would you side vs. RUG? Would you cut some number of Geists?
On the play:
-4 FOW, -2 Thoughtseize, -1 Geist +3 Lingering Souls, +1 STP, +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Jitte?
On the draw:
-1 FOW, -3 Daze, -2 Thoughtseize, -2 Geist, +3 Lingering Souls, +1 EE, +2 STP, +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Jitte?

The deck has been intriguing me. I don't really get the Cavern in the board and it has a really removal-heavy sideboard - 1 EE, 1 Jitte, 3 STP, 3 Lingering Souls (pseudo removal / stall vs. Swarm decks - also good vs. control decks).

[Neffy]

Please keep me posted of your testing with the deck. I could see the Spell Snare / IoK / Thoughseize spots varying by meta. In a meta with a lot of Esper or Maverick, Spell Snare is very good. However, in a meta with a lot of Omni-Tell or Storm, Thoughtseize, IoK, and even Spell Pierce are probably worth a go.

This deck doesn't run Deed due to how much mana is needed. You need 3 mana to play Deed, and then you need 3 or 4 to blow it up. Tombstalker is the only thing that survives. The decks that love Deed play manlands and planeswalkers and run a high land count with basics. Our deck really wants to cap at 2 lands, maybe 3.

In my opinion, Deed is too slow and goes against this deck's tempo strategy of trying to play 2-3 lands and create a tempo victory.

Deed and Dread are a no-go.

Deed is very good vs. Affinity, and can oftentimes be popped for 0 and 1 and have devastating effects. If Affinity makes a comeback, then I think we run Deed. In the current meta, we have better answers.

Sure thing, I will do so.
Why is Dread of Night a no-go? Thats a mistake right? I get your thoughts on the deed though. With only TS and Tarmo I guess it was better.

Regarding the 4 color I once played and tested my own version of team portugal with white included - with new cards added it would look like this:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
4 Brainstorm
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Life from the Loam
4 Ponder
1 Rushing River
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sylvan Library
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull


- Not counter heavy, but with a lot of nice toolboxes. I recall using snapcaster, unearth which was quite fun. Also I am getting into the Runechanter's Pike. Equip that to delver and you have a beast! What are you people's thoughts on # of equipment vs. # of SFM? I usually go with 1 less equipment than I have SFMs.
For even more toolbox you could include Ooze but I dont like them together with SHaman for obvious reasons..
The loam is there to help the mana base. I dont think it is that much of a problem, especially with 8 cantrips and Shamans, but it is always nice to have that card. Also feeds the Goyf/Shaman if need be.
EDIT: Rushing Rivers + loam is just sex!

A

[zerzab11]

Re:[4-colour-list]

Congratulations to the finish, really like the list. I'm just very curious about the Vapor Snags, I think I would play "real"removal (i.e.: Swords) in that slot what would free up some Sb-slots.

Is the possibility to random bounce + race ( with Geist mostly) really more relevant, than a little slower but way more resilent deck? If drawn in the early game without real boardpresence the card becomes weaker and CDA aswell. Someone enlighten me please?

[Cellar Door]

Here is where my list is currently sitting:

4 Delver
4 Goyf
3 Shaman
3 TS

4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Ponder
4 BS
4 Hymn
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
1 Sylvan Library

4 Sea
2 Bayou
1 Trop
1 Delta
4 Verdant
4 Misty
4 Wasteland

Side
2 Krosan Grip
2 Spell Pierce
2 Darkblast
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Jitte
1 Dread of Night
1 Virtue's Ruin
1 Pithing Needle
1 V.Clique
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Maelstrom Pulse

I'm on the fence about Hymn in this list. I am considering replacing it with Thoughtseize/IoK/Duress in some numbers. What are some thoughts regarding this? Sometimes Hymn can be a little awkward/difficult to cast and being able to actually look at the opponent's hand really helps plan out plays better.

Is Abrupt Decay still necessary as a 4of? Could we stand to drop 1-2 copies in favor of more counter magic? Spell Pierce? Spell Snare?

Also, if we are subbing out Hymns for 1cc discard, could we lower our land count to 19, or even 18, and get away with it? Possibly drop down to 3 Wasteland? Or is Wasteland a necessary 4of in our deck? I have found myself consistently hitting land drops, to the point where sometimes it borders on flood. Although, against Wasteland-heavy decks, I can sometimes still get wasted out, but I don't think running 19 lands as opposed to 20 would exacerbate that.

Also wouldn't mind some sideboard suggestions. In my local meta we have some white-based lists (stoneblade/maverick), combo, and graveyard decks, which is why my board is tuned the way it is. I would love to hear if there are some more comprehensive choices I could be making there though. Do I have too many redundant effect?

[wcm8]

The rationale for many of the deck's choices and numbers is a matter of consistency. The deck runs 4 of every card that it doesn't mind seeing in multiples early on, and then adds 4 Ponders to the mix for further consistency. Dismember/Snuff Out function as Decay #5. Tombstalker and Shaman are there as 3-ofs because although you like to see them, multiples aren't as profitable (I would argue for the inclusion of Deathrite #4, however.) The miser's Sylvan Library is just an incredibly powerful tool that wins games, but is completely useless in multiples.

I think cutting a land is doable, however running 20 lands is due to the deck running most effectively on 2 lands (as opposed to RUG's lower mana requirement of just 1 land) -- 20 seems to be the magic number where you're most likely to open with around 2 colored sources.

As for discard -- I think it's a completely reasonable choice to run Thoughtseize instead of Hymn. I think it comes down to personal preference, but there's no denying that Hymn does a great job of beating 'random jank', which you're bound to see in a larger tournament.

[Water_Wizard]

Why is Dread of Night a no-go? Thats a mistake right? I get your thoughts on the deed though.
A

I meant Dread of Night and Deed together are a no-go. A 'no-go' is a mistake, similar to a non-bo. I like both Dread of Night and Deed, but I wouldn't want to play them together. Kind of like how Deed and Engineered Plague don't run well together. You can run both, but it's horrible when you need to pop your Deed and you end up destroying your own enchantments in the process.


Re:[4-colour-list]

Congratulations to the finish, really like the list. I'm just very curious about the Vapor Snags, I think I would play "real"removal (i.e.: Swords) in that slot what would free up some Sb-slots.

Is the possibility to random bounce + race ( with Geist mostly) really more relevant, than a little slower but way more resilent deck? If drawn in the early game without real boardpresence the card becomes weaker and CDA aswell. Someone enlighten me please?

I played 3 matches with this list last night and here are my thoughts on Vapor Snag:

First, it provides an extra blue card for FOW.

Second, it's better than STP vs. Tombstalker, Delver, and most Show and Telled plus Reanimated critters.

Third, the life loss can be relevant. Because this is a tempo deck, it can be more profitable to return a threat for turn, tie up your opponent's mana, and not allow them to gain life so that you can swing in for lethal.

Fourth, it can be casted off any of the deck's lands. The mana-base has 9 lands. All of them produce U. Only 3 of them produce W. In the main deck configuration, you only have 5 W cards, so it's the last color you fetch for. I think this is the major reason for running Vapor Snag over STP- you're able to cast it more often.

Also, Vapor Snag combined with targeted discard can create pseudo creature destruction, albeit at the cost of 2 cards.

I still don't understand the Cavern of Souls in the board. Could someone please enlighten me there? Plus, how you would side vs. RUG (see my comment above)?

[Mark Sun]

It looks wacky enough that I want to play it. I don't understand most of the numbers, but I'm sure that will come with playing the deck, assuming it is a tuned list (which it looks like it is).

[Water_Wizard]

Yes Mark, it certainly is a crazy list. I think we should start up its own thread. Established decks because the deck already won a 70+ person tournament?

There are many deck choices I do not understand, like the 4 maindeck Geists and the sideboard Cavern of Souls.

In any case, the deck has done well and it is a blast to play.

The mana configuration can be a little tough, because the deck is only running 3 types of duals. While U is imperative, I wonder if the deck doesn't benefit from some cross-pollination - Bayou would be nice to enable Abrupt Decay and Savannah would be nice to lock in Swords and Lingering Souls out of the board. However, U is imperative for Daze, Brainstorm, and Ponder. I also missed Wasteland, but, alas, that is the price we pay for running a 4-c deck.

I am interested in someone's analysis regarding the sideboard and how you would sideboard vs. common match-ups.

I played against ANT (2-1), Maverick (1-2), and Turbo Eldrazi (0-2) last night. I've come to the conclusion that Geist is very good on the play, but lacks on the draw.

I assume Geist and the Cavern is for the Miracles match-up, but Terminus seems like the real problem against this match-up.

[wcm8]

Ugh, back and forth on Delver in this deck. If you drop Delver, tempo cards like Daze and 4-of Wastelands become slightly less powerful. I think if you drop Delver, you should probably just go all-in on the midrange plan and run maindeck planeswalkers and edit the spell choices.

Even though Delver is a bit less consistent here than in RUG, I like the fact that it's still a threat that requires an answer. Unless you're up against something like Miracles or another deck playing board-wipes, the increased threat density is useful. Even if they Bolt/Swords it, that's one less removal spell your other threats need to worry about.

I think I'm totally back on-board with Dan's ideas about the card, which is basically that if you're going to run the tempo shell, 4 Delvers are an auto-include.

If you're not, then it's probably better to just configure the deck for the midrange/control shell.

That said, I still want the 4th Deathrite. It fixes so many problems that this deck used to have: vulnerability to graveyard recursion/strategies; vulnerability to Wasteland and awkward mana-requirements; occasional lack of reach on a stalled board; (along with Delver) lack of aggressive turn-1 plays; lack of life gain against more aggressive strategies. He's kinda like a one-mana Planeswalker, very similar to Mother of Runes in this regard. I know it's a bit of a sacred cow, but perhaps the safest card to cut is the 3rd Tombstalker instead of the 4th Delver. Just an idea. I suppose a Wasteland could maybe be cut.

[Water_Wizard]

Yes, the big reason I went back to running 4 is because it is our only threat that is not contingent upon the graveyard.

It also helps out with the blue spell count. Once you cut Delver, the blue spell count falls too low for FOW imo, so it changes the make-up of the deck dramatically and there aren't very many suitable Delver replacements - V. Clique, Spell Pierce, Spell Snare don't fill Delver's role.

[Goddik]

A note: Jace is in the sideboard exactly for the Maverick matchup. You want to be grindy after board and Jace supports that role. You are not playing tempo after board against maverick, you are playing control. That is also one of the reasons why i strongly dislike delver, it does very little in postboard games in alot of matchups.

[nitewolf9]

I have actually cut the 3rd stalker for the 4th deathrite. As much as I hate the idea, I think it makes more sense and the deck is still plenty aggressive. I want the 1st library over the 3rd stalker since control seems to be more popular than rug right now, and shaman is the nuts against rug anyway.

[wcm8]

Where are you currently with the sideboard? I know you said you weren't a fan of the Cliques, but I have personally loved them for my control and combo matchups. I also still like having the Jace backup plan.

Is anyone else going to make it the SCG Open in Columbus on January 6? Hopefully I can replicate Dan and Alix's results with the deck...

[Cellar Door]

Here is Tom Martell's list from CFB

Main Deck
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Tombstalker
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
1 Sylvan Library
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
3 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Darkblast
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Spell Pierce
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Submerge
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Diabolic Edict

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/channel-tomm-bug-delver-legacy-event/

Looks like main board he dropped an Abrupt Decay, snuff out/dismember, and a tombstalker for 1 IoK and 2 Thoughtseize.

[Water_Wizard]

@ Nitewolf: I did the same thing. I also switched to Dismember over Snuff Out and added a Dread of Night in the Nihil Spellbomb slot in the sideboard. I figured the 4th Deathrite helped out against gy mus, and Lingering Souls tokens were giving me headaches.

Did you know Deathrite's first ability is not a mana ability (ie can be stopped by Pithing Needle)?

From gatherer:
10/1/2012 Because the first ability requires a target, it is not a mana ability. It uses the stack and can be responded to.
10/1/2012 If the target of any of Deathrite Shaman’s three abilities is an illegal target when that ability tries to resolve, it will be countered and none of its effects will happen. You won’t add mana to your mana pool, no opponent will lose life, or you won’t gain life, as appropriate.

I learned something new last night. Vs. the Turbo Eldrazi mu he had Needle on Deathrite and Crucible of Worlds in play plus Glacial Chasm. I thought I could eat the Glimmerpost he kept recurring, but nope.

[Water_Wizard]

Interesting, I played TomM and Lewis Laskin a few nights ago on MTGO and they were both rocking the 4-color lists. I guess maybe they decided on BUG or are rocking multiple lists or are keeping the 4-color Deathrite lists under wraps.

I took some notes and their lists are different than the one that won the Berlin tourney - they were running Jace, Liliana, KotR, and SFM plus Wasteland, Bayou, Savannah, Scrubland, Tropical Island, UGS, and Tundra (more robust mana + probably more lands than the 19 the German list ran).

I'm in the middle of finals week, but I'll work on starting a new thread for the 4-color lists. If somebody else wants to do it, I'm happy to contribute.

[Demonic_Attorney]

This is the BUG aggro/ tempo forum.

4x Delver of Secrets is a must for this deck right now.

If you want to cut Delver and play Planeswalkers in its place then please go to the Team America (Midrange/Control Thread) form.

I really hope this ends the whole should Delver be in this particular deck!

Every single tempo/ aggro BUG strategy that has made any noise at any major tourney/ event has played Delver so again, if you don't like them it is so easy to go to the midrange and control BUG thread.

[wcm8]

4x Delver of Secrets is a must for this deck right now.

Most likely yes, but I dislike your rigid adherence to tradition. Innovation and adjusting slots is important towards moving a deck forward. It wasn't that long ago that people completely dismissed the possibility of adding Deathrite Shaman to the deck, and now it seems like pretty much everyone is on-board for its inclusion as a 4-of.

I'd also remind you that the original incarnation of the deck only played 4 Tarmogoyf and 4 Tombstalker and did just fine (granted, this was back before Delver was printed...)

Slaying sacred cows and trying out new options is the way to keep a deck competitive. This archetype has remained competitive through the years because of this -- Sinkhole, Stifle, Snuff Out, Spell Pierce, etc... all at one time were considered essential components for a BUG tempo strategy, and yet have either been replaced entirely or reduced in number over time. Delver may be good now, but it wouldn't shock me if another card took its place or if metagame considerations made it sub-optimal. We are, after all, going to be getting Dimir and Simic cards in the next set. Perhaps one of those guilds will have another bomb utility creature like Shaman that can compete for Delver's slot.

[Demonic_Attorney]

Delver may be good now, but it wouldn't shock me if another card took its place or if metagame considerations made it sub-optimal. We are, after all, going to be getting Dimir and Simic cards in the next set. Perhaps one of those guilds will have another bomb utility creature like Shaman that can compete for Delver's slot.

Hence what I precisely stated; right now!

Speculating what a new set may or may not bring is never fruitful (especially without a spoiler) in assessing and selecting viable cards for playing this deck right now. Right now the new set and cards have not come out and the present metagame considerations have not made Delver even remotely sub-optimal for any blue based tempo aggro deck.

I applaud your for wanting to explore new options and I do not impugn you for doing same; however, when those replacement options are Planeswalkers and/ or other control type cards that do not adequately constitute as a viable and suitable replacement to Delver like which has constantly been coming up on this forum recently, it is getting repetitive and redundant. Simpy put, I cannot over emphasize how much that Delver of Secrets belongs in BUG Tempo/ Aggro right now!

[catmint]

Absolutely agree. Right now a blue tempo deck with Delver seems very very suboptimal and shouldnt be called a tempo deck anymore. I see Delver as the only constant to differentiate between tempo and midrange/control. With people "mixing up strategies/cards" on the scale of "pure tempo" to "creatureless control" Delver should be the clear indication of what the primary gameplan is.

Also Tcdecks starts to differentiate now between Team America and BUG control, but they do it in a pretty messy way leaving tons of non delver lists in Team America. Could you guys maye also write to TCdecks that Delver = tempo aka Team America and the rest is BUG control? http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/contact.php

[Zand]

I've been playing the Deathrite/Tombstalker version of the deck and have really been enjoying it, my list is pretty similar to the one going round recently, the main difference being that I sideboard Jace Beleren rather than Mindsculptor. I feel like that against control siding in JtM is incorrect, mostly because actual control/dedicated mid-range decks are better at being 'Jace decks' than this one. It's like you are side boarding to 'go bigger' than them but they are definitely the control deck in the matchup and we should rather focus on more aggressive plays, which is why I like Beleren.

You rarely want to have 4 mana and would much rather shuffle extra lands/Wasteland them. Also, in the mirror where 'going bigger' is a good strategy, 4 mana is even more of a problem. Between Wasteland (that often comes with a Loam package post board against BUG/RUG), Stifle, Daze Pierce etc, actually resolving the card is more trouble than it's worth. You do lose the option of using Jace as a win condition but I think he is a poor win condition in this deck anyway, as he dilutes the main focus of the deck, which is to play efficient threats backed up by disruption. Another trade off is that you can't Sideboard Beleren in Show and Tell matchups to bounce Emrakul but I think that's okay as those decks are on the decline.

Thoughts?

[wcm8]

I've been playing the Deathrite/Tombstalker version of the deck and have really been enjoying it, my list is pretty similar to the one going round recently, the main difference being that I sideboard Jace Beleren rather than Mindsculptor. I feel like that against control siding in JtM is incorrect, mostly because actual control/dedicated mid-range decks are better at being 'Jace decks' than this one. It's like you are side boarding to 'go bigger' than them but they are definitely the control deck in the matchup and we should rather focus on more aggressive plays, which is why I like Beleren.

You rarely want to have 4 mana and would much rather shuffle extra lands/Wasteland them. Also, in the mirror where 'going bigger' is a good strategy, 4 mana is even more of a problem. Between Wasteland (that often comes with a Loam package post board against BUG/RUG), Stifle, Daze Pierce etc, actually resolving the card is more trouble than it's worth. You do lose the option of using Jace as a win condition but I think he is a poor win condition in this deck anyway, as he dilutes the main focus of the deck, which is to play efficient threats backed up by disruption. Another trade off is that you can't Sideboard Beleren in Show and Tell matchups to bounce Emrakul but I think that's okay as those decks are on the decline.

Thoughts?

So, I'm assuming you are using Jace to only -1 and draw yourself a card, and potentially pre-empt or destroy a Jace TMS against control.

The problem I see with this is that it's an incredibly narrow card, that really is only going to come in against your control matchups. Compared to Jace TMS, which is also going to come in there, as well as against midrange aggro and some forms of combo (it's not like Abrupt Decay is going to do anything against Show and Tell..)

As a card advantage engine, I think it's inferior to more copies of Sylvan Library or even Phyrexian Arena. I know it has a few advantages over these options, but I'm not sold on Beleren being worth the copy here. Big Jace does so much more than just drawing cards that the extra mana is well worth it, even at the risk of running into a Spell Pierce.

Also, Spell Pierce is a non-factor anyways. It's not like you're going to cast little Jace with 5 mana on the board, right?

[wcm8]

I've been doing some pretty intense testing and am keeping records and notes on my matchups. Once I accumulate another week or two of results I will post about my findings and thoughts. So far, the maindeck seems pretty solid, but I'm tempted to add another Sylvan Library or two -- this card has been amazing in almost every single game I've had it. The sideboard I have seems alright, though there are about 3 slots that I'm kinda iffy on... keeping it all the same for now but may need to overhaul some things. For now though, Vendilion Clique has really been pullings its weight and I don't think I'll cut it.

I'm not entirely sold on Hymn. I like the card sometimes, but there are other times when I really wished it were Thoughtseize, Stifle, or Spell Pierce instead. I think it is completely reasonable to change this slot, as back-breaking as a second turn Hymn can be.

So far there have only been two matchups that are giving me fits: Pox and Nic Fit. Pox is understandable since it is mostly immune to Wasteland and has a ton of removal, so I'm not sure if this matchup can be improved without reconfiguring the deck significantly. I will say that Shaman has made this matchup a lot more reasonable. Landing a Jace is the best thing you can in the sideboard games, but it's sometimes tough to do that if they draw into Wastelands and Smallpox.

Nic Fit seems like it's a deck built to beat tempo, so this might just be one of those near-impossible matchups. With RUG, at least you could Stifle their Explorer or Deed triggers, and Submerge out of the board was mega-helpful. But BUG seems to struggle a bit more, and now that deck can win out of nowhere thanks to that stupid Scapeshift combo with Valakut. I played a few games against this, and I was able to win a few by countering their explorers and wasting their first few land drops. I guess Hymn is pretty good here, but it's definitely not a great matchup.

Otherwise, this deck has been crushing left and right, and actually seems favored against the 'mirrors' -- I either 2-0'd or 2-1'd against both the Thresh version with Confidants, and against the midrange BUG control version. Having more (and bigger) threats goes a lonnnng way in these matchups. Tombstalker is consistently amazing, especially when they lean so hard on Abrupt Decays of their own.

[Water_Wizard]

Thanks for the update.

I agree with your observations.

Where do you do your testing?

[wcm8]

Cockatrice is the program I use for testing online. I have a local playgroup, but we only get the opportunity to test periodically.

Good lord am I wordy. That whole post read like someone on an adderall bender. I'll try to keep it more concise...

[Mark Sun]

Jammed the 4c list in back-to-back locals (yeah, Akron area rocks, be jealous...) Wednesday & Thursday. Just went with the 75, since I wanted to pick up on playstyle more than anything else and understand card decisions. Tried to be open-minded about Jasper Grimmer's build. Some notes:

First of all, some quick results. Both locals were four rounds each, with me going 3-1 in each.

2-1 Merfolk, 2-0 Belcher, 1-2 BUG Midrange, 2-0 UW Miracles
1-2 UG Enchantress, 2-0 Bant Midrange, 2-0 Jund, 2-1 Goblins

Vapor Snag: I used Water_Wizard's analysis on Vapor Snag to justify it, but I don't feel like it's where the deck wants to be. I found myself leaning more on discard + the full set of STP's postboard against the decks where Vapor Snag is reasonable to leave in. I pretty much boarded it out every time. While true that you want blue cards to pitch to Force of Will, in most of the decks where you want to be using Vapor Snag, you probably don't want Force of Will (with the exception of decks that cheap a fatty into play).

Geist: Same as it was last Standard season in UW Delver. Super weak against a horde of creatures, which makes it hard to push through damage. That said, casting him on turn 2 (which I did a couple of times) was pretty insane. This card might need more time to figure out and understand his role in the deck.

Lingering Souls: Bonkers. I wanted it against BUG. I wanted it against Bant. I brought it in for a pile of matchups. In conjunction with Jitte in the sideboard, that 4-card package seemed very reasonable, giving you a constant stream of guys to take advantage of equipment.

Delver: Most of you know how I feel about this card. Still not a fan with more Decays running around, but fits into the shell of the deck.


This is what I'll be using next week:

Lands (19)
10 Blue Fetches
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

Creatures (15)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Geist of Saint Traft

Spells (26)
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
1 Sylvan Library
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder

Sideboard (15)
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
3 Lingering Souls
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Envelop
3 Flex Slots


I cut the two Vapor Snags to round out the playset of Daze and to add the 2nd Swords to Plowshares in the maindeck. For the sideboard, I never really found myself boarding in the extra Thoughtseize. They are probably fine against Control but you also want to put pressure on it you can. So -2 Thoughtseize, -1 Swords to Plowshares, +3 Flex Slots. They might become Engineered Plagues, or I was also thinking about cutting the Cavern and the EE for 4 Stoneforge Mystic and a Batterskull. Dunno, tons of time to tweak and test. Has anyone else been playing this deck?

[Water_Wizard]

@ Mark.

Thanks for the update. I played against Goblins on MTGO and won in 3. I also played some games earlier in the week that escape me. I still haven't figured out why that Cavern is in the sb, though. I'm also not sold on Daze because we don't have any form of a mana denial package. Sure, it's nice to protect a turn-1 Deathrite, but without Wasteland and Stifle, Daze becomes such a liability later on in the game.

Personally, I like the Vapor Snags. The -1 life has become relevant a few times. I'm also considering broadening the mana base to include a Bayou and either a Savannah or a Scrubland.

I'm planning to open a separate thread in Established decks on Saturday. I have two finals today, so that's been bogging me down. Once I open the thread, I'll post here and port over the relevant comments.

Here's a deck that posted 2nd in the Finnish nationals: http://poromagia.com/index.php?page=viewarticle&articleid=116 It's basically Esper with Deathrites and an Abrupt Decay in the board, but it's still worth a look.

I liked Ricky Sidher's comment from SCG Las Vegas regarding Deathrite, "It's like a one-mana planeswalker in Legacy."

EDIT: vs. Goblins I sided (using the original list) -3 Daze, -4 FOW, -4 Geist, +3 STP, +3 L. Souls, +1 Jitte, +1 EE, +2 Thoughtseize, +1 Cavern.
I found we have plenty of turn 1 answers to a resolved Lackey and Abrupt Decay can hit an Aether Vial. Daze and FOW are near useless with Cavern of Souls and no Wastelands (I think Cavern should be legendary). As you mentioned, Geist is no good attacking into a horde. I'm still questioning this card as a 4-of. In which match-ups does it really shine? UW runs Terminus, most other decks either have creatures or Geist is too slow. Perhaps it is good vs. BUG tempo? I brought in the Cavern to help combat Wasteland/Port. I was happy with the Thoughtseizes as Goblins tends to hold cards in hand and I will gladly pay 2 life to discard a Ringleader, Matron, or a Pyrokenisis. I gained life from Deathrite a few times which allowed me to use Sylvan activations 2 times. Those extra two cards may have been the difference in the game.

[wcm8]

Let's talk about Tempo, or the difference in playstyle of Canadian and American thresh.

I believe that Hymn to Tourach is the biggest difference between the two decks and dictates the rest of the deck construction. To support the BB sorcery, TA runs 20 lands and plays some number of the tertiary dual land. Since it's already invested in a slightly more robust mana base, it plays a few 'bigger' spells and has an alternative sideboard plan option thanks to its Black options. Compare this to RUG, which only needs one land in play to continue operating, and does not typically deviate from the aggressor role even in sideboard games. RUG's ideal plan is to land a threat and protect it along the way, and use burn to eventually finish the job if needed. BUG instead typically lands a threat or two and gradually runs their opponent out of answers via Hymn, and then plays a better topdeck war thanks to all of the cantrips.

When Hymn is good, BUG is better, hands down. When Hymn is bad (and there are definitely times when this is the case), RUG seems to take the cake as the tempo deck to play. I don't like to make absolute statements, but I have found that if you are planning on cutting Hymn for another option you might as well just play RUG.

There was a quote I remember reading in the RUG thread which said that RUG's play is a bit like a sports car: extremely fast, but will completely derail if it hits a 'brick wall' (via something like an un-opposed big threat or 'answer' card such as Rest in Peace or Relic of Progenitus). Comparitively, BUG tempo is more like a Mack truck: slower to get going, but once on its way can wreck through that brick wall if needed.

With Deathrite Shaman now everywhere, I think tempo decks will need to adapt to better answer this card. I think RUG should strongly consider upping its maindeck removal count to 8, perhaps with the entire playset of Forked Bolt to help answer Shaman and the seemingly ubiquitous Lingering Souls. (Seriously... I lost to a 'Haunted Zoo' deck last night that splashed black for Shaman AND Souls... what is the world coming to?) With BUG, I'm not entirely sure what it can do maindeck... Lingering Souls is definitely a problem card for the deck since it 'dodges' Hymn and can effectively gain upwards of 20 life and protect a Jace. The sideboard definitely needs some answers to the card.

I think comparing Team America to BUG Midrange/Control decks is missing the point, since although these decks play many of the same cards, they both support a completely different gameplan and strategic goal. You might as well compare the deck to Esper Blade, which actually has more in common with TA's bigger cousins. However, RUG and BUG are like brother decks, since the two are both hoping to exploit similar metagames.

[wweenieking]

Hi all, I just wanted to chime in about the 4c list. I saw it posted here and took it to a local gpt where top 8 got duals. I played zero games with the deck before hand and with that, the only change I made to the deck was 3 m. mage in the board for the turbo eldrazi decks that get played here with the hope to slow them down. 40 people showed up, so 6 rounds cut to top 8. Btw it started at 7pm on Tues, I didn't get home til 330am. I played vs:

Rd 1 turbo eldrazi 0-2 (so much for mages)
Rd 2 aggro loam 2-0
Rd 3 dredge 2-0
Rd 4 combo elves 1-0 (we each got a game loss during random deck checks)
Rd 5 uw rest in pieces 2-0
Rd 6 ID
Top 8 vs turbo eldrazi again 2-0 (he drew poorly and discard helped A LOT)
Top 4 split (my buddy wanted to the byes and I can't go to the gp anyways)

All in all, the deck is super fun, seems really good, tho I didn't play vs bug or rug. I only lost 2 games all day and that was to a deck I knew would give me trouble since I don't have wastes. I like cutting the 2 snags for stp and something else.

[Demonic_Attorney]

Extirpate is your answer to Lingering Souls. Why did Hatfield lose in the top eight to Dredge recently? In short, by not having Extirpate and/ or Surgical Extraction in his sideboard. Shaman doesn’t answer Bridge from Below and taking out a RUG player's Tropical Island early auto wins the RUG matchup.

Adding another Library if your particular metagame has a lot of control (i.e. Stoneblade, Miracles, etc.) that is sound strategy. With respect, adding two more Sylvan Library and playing three in total is not prudent and is conspicuously too many by any objective means especially with four Brainstorm and four Ponder.

See, against Pox and decks with mass removal spells Nimble Mongoose is just so good. There is no reason why you can’t play Stifle if you want to if your metagame demands it. For example, against Nic Fit Stifle is a house. Tombstalker is not what you think it is in the mirror; A Submerged Tombstalker is absolutely devastating and if that isn't tempo I don’t know what is!

[Water_Wizard]

I opened up a thread for 4-Color Deathrite Shaman under Established Decks.

It's still a little messy, but I'll clean it up in the morning.

I ported over a number of the previous comments from this thread as quotes, but I'll probably try to paraphrase them into shorter paragraphs in the morning.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25204-4-Color-Deathrite-Shaman&p=691518#post691518

[apistat_commander]

I tested Nitewolf's list yesterday in between rounds at a Modern 1k (-1 Tombstalker, -1 Snuff Out, +1 Dismember, +1 Deathrite). I kept feeling that the list is just missing something. Deathrite Shaman was really good, as was Hymn, but Delver felt pretty terrible. However all of the replacements for Delver seem pretty lackluster. I can't put my finger on it, but the deck needs something I just don't know what exactly that is. It seems like most of the BUG lists that did well at the invitational were much closer to the control end of the spectrum. I would love to find a good BUG Delver list but I just don't know if the cards/synergy can be fit into a single deck.

[Water_Wizard]

It seems like most of the BUG lists that did well at the invitational were much closer to the control end of the spectrum.

Yes, Pros love their playset of Jaces.

It seems like most of the BUG decks in the invitational were running around 22-23 lands.

The lack of Force of Will is interesting.

I don't understand Reid Duke's list. First, I would like a Sylvan Library. Second, why run 3 FOW in the board? You've got 11 blue cards in your main deck. You don't have enough blue cards to support FOW, especially considering that you should cut Jace in matches where you would bring in FOW.

This should probably go in the BUG mid-range/control thread...

[bondafong]

Extirpate is your answer to Lingering Souls. Why did Hatfield lose in the top eight to Dredge recently? In short, by not having Extirpate and/ or Surgical Extraction in his sideboard. Shaman doesn’t answer Bridge from Below and taking out a RUG player's Tropical Island early auto wins the RUG matchup.

Surgical is a fine answer to Lingering Souls, but you should never sideboard it in versus RUG Delver. It's basically an attrition war where every single card counts. To sideboard in a useless card (unless you lucksack) will hurt you more than it will give you an advantage.

[wcm8]

I would take some of the card choices from the SCG Invitational BUG deck lists with a grain of salt. Those players geared their 75 for an expected metagame and it paid off. Against a more random field full of jank, miscellaneous aggro and combo, I think a playset of Daze and Force of Will is a completely reasonable choice.

I'd also note that TA has been having positive results for me against BUG midrange/control. Since they are mostly relying on 1-for-1 removal, eventually you can run them out of answers and win through attrition. The only major problem would be if they resolved an early planeswalker.

If BUG midrange really takes off, I think it could be a good idea to move Cliques to the main. I'd also consider looking into some sort of recursive or hard-to-kill threat...

One idea, janky as hell: Obstinate Baloth. Aside from being countered, this guy can give BUG issues. Cast it free via Hymn/Lili, 'protection' from Abrupt Decay, and Jace bouncing it isn't as profitable since you still gain life.

Thrun is still good, unfortunately edict effects still hit him. I would suggest Bitterblossom if it weren't for Decay. Or you can just overload on threats like Ooze as Goyf #5-6

More Sylvan Libraries are an option, as is Compost.

Garruk Relentless may be an option.

[catmint]

I'd also note that TA has been having positive results for me against BUG midrange/control. Since they are mostly relying on 1-for-1 removal, eventually you can run them out of answers and win through attrition. The only major problem would be if they resolved an early planeswalker.


I think your results were based on variance/skill advantage. I feel to be a favourite over BUG delver with my midrange list. FInd it certainly to be easier than Canadian. Also following the logic of winning an attrition war, the midrange deck naturally has a favour. They rely on 1 on 1 removal and gain card advantage with the different tools snapcaster, jace, baleful strix. The big trump that tempo has is tombstalker which basically has protection from everything except planeswalkers & baleful strix.
... but I am happy to test with you in cockatrice/mws so we can explore the (archetype mirror) a bit.

[KobeBryan]

The Team america deck that won SCG

How do you guys feel about 4 hymns instead of 4 targeted discard?

How do you feel about the sylvan library when you have 4 ponders and 4 brainstorms already?

[nitewolf9]

The Team america deck that won SCG

How do you guys feel about 4 hymns instead of 4 targeted discard?

How do you feel about the sylvan library when you have 4 ponders and 4 brainstorms already?

I feel that this all sounds great.

[KobeBryan]

I feel that this all sounds great.

So you prefer the hymn instead of the targeted discard.

[wcm8]

I think your results were based on variance/skill advantage. I feel to be a favourite over BUG delver with my midrange list. FInd it certainly to be easier than Canadian. Also following the logic of winning an attrition war, the midrange deck naturally has a favour. They rely on 1 on 1 removal and gain card advantage with the different tools snapcaster, jace, baleful strix. The big trump that tempo has is tombstalker which basically has protection from everything except planeswalkers & baleful strix.
... but I am happy to test with you in cockatrice/mws so we can explore the (archetype mirror) a bit.

I would test this evening if I weren't traveling for work (current city: Knoxville, TN). But perhaps tomorrow.

There's a lot to consider with the BUG mirrors, mainly due to card choice variations. Are they running Confidants? Snapcasters? Did they drop FoW in favor of more discard? Are they running Hymn and/or just targeted removal?

I would consider builds running Shardless Agent/Ancestral Visions to be a different archetype altogether.

In the SB games, I have obviously brought in Jaces and a few other cards, generally cutting FoW and usually Daze (unless on the play) to gear towards being a more midrange deck. However, I do bring in the 2 Cliques and 1 Ooze, bringing my total creature count up to 17. This actually tends to be enough to overload BUG, and save for something unusual like a turn 2 Liliana I can overwhelm their deck with the constant stream of threats (there is no fear of Terminus, Perish, or Pernicious Deed currently, so I see no reason to not play out like an all-in aggro deck). I also tend to win the 'topdeck war' since I'm running a full playset of Ponder/Brainstorm, whereas BUG can sometimes just get screwed into drawing 3 lands in a row or stumble into late-game discard. That's the main advantage TA tends to have, in addition to being capable of operating on a lower curve (Wasteland is still a powerful card here).

Not to sound too conceited, but as you said it probably is partly thanks to skill and familiarity. I've been playing with the archetype for several years now, whereas I imagine some people are just netdecking the latest SCG list without much practice.

edit: As the meta adapts to BUG, I think Team America builds will have an easier time fending off the backlash. For example, Burn and UR Delver are by no means an easy matchup, but it's far easier for a deck that plays Tombstalker, Daze and Hymn to Tourach to beat such a deck than the deck that's playing maindeck Thoughtseize and Jace TMS.

[wcm8]

So you prefer the hymn instead of the targeted discard.

I've been back and forth between the two and have settled with Hymn. It really is just the more powerful card for this deck, and 'Hymn Hymn I win' is as true now as it always was.

[KobeBryan]

I've been back and forth between the two and have settled with Hymn. It really is just the more powerful card for this deck, and 'Hymn Hymn I win' is as true now as it always was.

I think Hymn can be better off in the board as a 3 of. Take out the spell pierces and use hymns instead. Targeted discard is much more useful against sneak attack decks.

[Water_Wizard]

Hymn fits very well with Deathrite/Delver/Daze.

Daze offers early protection, either for Deathrite or Delver or to push through a Hymn.

Especially on the play, a hand with Deathrite/Fetch/Daze/Hymn or Deathrite/Fetch/Land/Brainstorm just create so many powerful plays. If you can get your Deathrite into play on turn 1 and you have a Daze in hand, you have the following awesome scenarios.

1) They try to remove your Deathrite, you counter with Daze. On turn 2, you target them with Hymn - they can either FOW (pitching a card), or lose 2 cards, some of which could be land.

2) They let your Deathrite live. You move to turn 2, you target them with Hymn, no matter what they do, they are losing 2 cards, possibly more (baring some crazy Divert action).

Daze is necessary to protect our 3 most important early threats - Deathrite, Delver, and Hymn. In combination, a turn 1 creature and a turn 2 Hymn can give you a huge advantage (especially if you Hymn well.)

[KobeBryan]

Hymn fits very well with Deathrite/Delver/Daze.

Daze offers early protection, either for Deathrite or Delver or to push through a Hymn.

Especially on the play, a hand with Deathrite/Fetch/Daze/Hymn or Deathrite/Fetch/Land/Brainstorm just create so many powerful plays. If you can get your Deathrite into play on turn 1 and you have a Daze in hand, you have the following awesome scenarios.

1) They try to remove your Deathrite, you counter with Daze. On turn 2, you target them with Hymn - they can either FOW (pitching a card), or lose 2 cards, some of which could be land.

2) They let your Deathrite live. You move to turn 2, you target them with Hymn, no matter what they do, they are losing 2 cards, possibly more (baring some crazy Divert action).

Daze is necessary to protect our 3 most important early threats - Deathrite, Delver, and Hymn. In combination, a turn 1 creature and a turn 2 Hymn can give you a huge advantage (especially if you Hymn well.)

been getting smoked by non-basic hate.

i think i'm going to drop the underground sea to 3 and drop a fetch land for a island.

so the mana looks like this

4 wasteland
1 swamp
1 island
2 bayou
1 tropical
2 polluted delta
3 verdant catacombs
3 misty rainforest
3 underground sea

[wcm8]

What non-basic hate are you losing to? Choke and Blood Moon are hardly the problem they used to be thanks to Decay and Shaman, not to mention the decks that run Blood Moon effects are bad anyways. Price of Progress? Well Burn has always been a bad matchup. Wasteland -- sometimes that card just wins games, after all, that's why we play it. Luckily, we operate on a pretty low curve to begin with.

A basic island is actually going to end up mana screwing you more than just running all duals. The whole point of the mana base is to be able to consistently cast Hymn to Tourach on the second turn if at all possible.

[KobeBryan]

What non-basic hate are you losing to? Choke and Blood Moon are hardly the problem they used to be thanks to Decay and Shaman, not to mention the decks that run Blood Moon effects are bad anyways. Price of Progress? Well Burn has always been a bad matchup. Wasteland -- sometimes that card just wins games, after all, that's why we play it. Luckily, we operate on a pretty low curve to begin with.

A basic island is actually going to end up mana screwing you more than just running all duals. The whole point of the mana base is to be able to consistently cast Hymn to Tourach on the second turn if at all possible.

stifle waste stifle waste kicked my ass big time. couldn't get more than 1 land out.

[Water_Wizard]

stifle waste stifle waste kicked my ass big time. couldn't get more than 1 land out.

Yeah, but that's just gonna happen.

No need to over-react.

It's important to know when to chalk things up to variance.

If your opponent just has amazing hands and amazing game situations, then that isn't a flaw with the deck, that is variance. Sometimes I lose 4-5 matches in a row due to variance (either my opponent's amazing draws or my poor draws.) Likewise, sometimes I win games that I have no business winning because of variance.

What matters in the end is your play ability, your familiarity with the deck, and your deck choice for a given tournament- those are the things you have control over - not who your are paired against, not what decks you play against, not how your opponent draws, and not how you draw.

A vast majority of the decks in the format are going to lose to Stifle, Waste, Stifle, Waste, and that includes everything from UW Miracles (running 8 basics) to Elves. A few bad games doesn't mean that you should go tweaking the deck sub-optimally.

[wcm8]

Yeah, but that's just gonna happen.

No need to over-react.

It's important to know when to chalk things up to variance.

If your opponent just has amazing hands and amazing game situations, then that isn't a flaw with the deck, that is variance. Sometimes I lose 4-5 matches in a row due to variance (either my opponent's amazing draws or my poor draws.) Likewise, sometimes I win games that I have no business winning because of variance.

What matters in the end is your play ability, your familiarity with the deck, and your deck choice for a given tournament- those are the things you have control over - not who your are paired against, not what decks you play against, not how your opponent draws, and not how you draw.

A vast majority of the decks in the format are going to lose to Stifle, Waste, Stifle, Waste, and that includes everything from UW Miracles (running 8 basics) to Elves. A few bad games doesn't mean that you should go tweaking the deck sub-optimally.

This, this, a million times this. Among the tier one DTBs, you have to remember that most of the matchups are, at best, somewhere around 60-40 in one deck's favor. This means the other deck still has a pretty good fighting chance and can sometimes just open with a god hand. As Water Wizard said, RUG's nut draw of multiple Stifles and Wastelands (with perhaps Daze and removal for your Shamans for good measure) will smoke just about any deck.

Learn to play around Stifle as best you can, and adjust your play and mulliganing decisions if you know your opponent is on RUG. The matchup is still relatively close to even, though TA is definitely favored since we have a ton of cards that just negate their general strategy.

[nitewolf9]

Leading with non-fetch into deathrite not only beats the stiflex2 wastex2 hand, but it makes those cards look embarrassing.

If you have nothing but fetchlands and your opponent goes volc/trop, go, just keep making land drops and don't do anything until they do. They need to stick an early threat to win. Game 1 the most outs they will have to Tombstalker is either 2 for 1ing themselves or finding a 1-of dismember. I know it's easy to just say "play around stifle", but there really are warning signs. I agree that sometimes you can't, but you always should if your opponent lets you.

Cartwheeling into stifle if your opponent goes flooded strand pass, now that happens. I would always play 4 of those and 4 deltas if I was on RUG. Broadcasting that you are on Miracles or Esper might be the best way to get people with stifle, even more so than playing wooded foothills.

[wcm8]

I would always play 4 of those and 4 deltas if I was on RUG. Broadcasting that you are on Miracles or Esper might be the best way to get people with stifle, even more so than playing wooded foothills.

Regarding broadcasting as it applies to our deck: Currently I'm just doing a 3/3/3 split of Misty/Delta/Catacombs (there's always that jackass out there who thinks he's clever and brings in Pithing Needle). But perhaps it would be good to do a 4/4/1 split of Misty/Delta/Catacombs. This way, an opponent might play around our non-existent stifles when we go Misty -> pass back, or Misty -> Tropical, OR play more conservatively/defensively when we go Delta -> Underground -> Ponder (broadcasting that we are on some form of combo such as ANT or Reanimator).

Just an idea. We are obviously getting into some very nitty-gritty details that 99.99% of the time aren't going to make one ounce of difference.

[KobeBryan]

Regarding broadcasting as it applies to our deck: Currently I'm just doing a 3/3/3 split of Misty/Delta/Catacombs (there's always that jackass out there who thinks he's clever and brings in Pithing Needle). But perhaps it would be good to do a 4/4/1 split of Misty/Delta/Catacombs. This way, an opponent might play around our non-existent stifles when we go Misty -> pass back, or Misty -> Tropical, OR play more conservatively/defensively when we go Delta -> Underground -> Ponder (broadcasting that we are on some form of combo such as ANT or Reanimator).

Just an idea. We are obviously getting into some very nitty-gritty details that 99.99% of the time aren't going to make one ounce of difference.

to be honest, I'd drop the misty counts to more catacombs count. This deck really runs on blue and black. green is more of a splash.

If green is really cut off, you still can play the game because you have deathrite shaman that can use black. Then it can give you the green.

But yes...Its not going to make a difference since the entire deck is all duals anyways.

[wcm8]

to be honest, I'd drop the misty counts to more catacombs count. This deck really runs on blue and black. green is more of a splash.

If green is really cut off, you still can play the game because you have deathrite shaman that can use black. Then it can give you the green.

But yes...Its not going to make a difference since the entire deck is all duals anyways.

All of the fetchlands get you all of the duals. This isn't the midrange thread.

[KobeBryan]

All of the fetchlands get you all of the duals. This isn't the midrange thread.

i'm cheap. I've skimped on the polluted delta.

[wcm8]

i'm cheap. I've skimped on the polluted delta.

Not to sound callous, but this isn't the budget thread either. For discussing deck tech and construction, money is not an issue.

Team America is probably one of the last decks I'd look into building if you are budget conscious. What with all the duals (Underground Seas no less!), Wastelands, Goyfs, Thoughtseizes, Cliques, Jaces, etc. it is perhaps the most expensive deck to build outside of fringe cases like Candelabras, Imperial Recruiters or Lands.dec.

And for a reason. These cards are among the most powerful in the game, and with that comes a high demand. Now that BUG is proving itself to once against be the most powerful color combination in Legacy, the prices of some of these cards are only going to continue to raise in price. It is unfortunately one of those cases where having a big wallet can trounce the players with less disposable income.

Personally, I'd be fine with a mass reprinting of all the old staples if it meant the Legacy player base grew. But this not the topic for that discussion. I do think we will probably see some of these cards come down in value with Modern Masters, and Force of Will, Onslaught fetchlands and Wasteland will probably be reprinted at some point.

[KobeBryan]

Not to sound callous, but this isn't the budget thread either. For discussing deck tech and construction, money is not an issue.

Team America is probably one of the last decks I'd look into building if you are budget conscious. What with all the duals (Underground Seas no less!), Wastelands, Goyfs, Thoughtseizes, Cliques, Jaces, etc. it is perhaps the most expensive deck to build outside of fringe cases like Candelabras, Imperial Recruiters or Lands.dec.

And for a reason. These cards are among the most powerful in the game, and with that comes a high demand. Now that BUG is proving itself to once against be the most powerful color combination in Legacy, the prices of some of these cards are only going to continue to raise in price. It is unfortunately one of those cases where having a big wallet can trounce the players with less disposable income.

Personally, I'd be fine with a mass reprinting of all the old staples if it meant the Legacy player base grew. But this not the topic for that discussion. I do think we will probably see some of these cards come down in value with Modern Masters, and Force of Will, Onslaught fetchlands and Wasteland will probably be reprinted at some point.

I've been playing this deck quite a bit. very fun deck. Sadly i sold my goyfs.

I do have a question. how are you guys dealing with burn? just straight counters?

[wcm8]

how are you guys dealing with burn? just straight counters?

Hymn essentially gains us 6~ life. Amazing spell in this matchup.
If Deathrite Shaman survives, he can gain incremental life from dead creatures.
Goyfs and Tombstalkers race and can block their smaller threats. Early Delvers can't be ignored for forever and can potentially outrace their burn spells.
Daze and Force of Will can prevent their big spells from resolving, such as a lethal price of Progress.
Abrupt Decay takes care of any creatures or fancy spells they may try to bring in such as Sulfuric Vortex or Meekstone.
We play 4 Brainstorms, 4 Ponders and a Sylvan Library. Mono Red burn is forced to play from the top of their deck.

Out of the board, we have Spell Pierce, Scavenging Ooze, some builds have Jitte, and others may run BEB/Hydroblast.

Honestly, this matchup isn't as bad as it used to be, assuming you are running Team America and NOT BUG control. Force of Will/Daze their turn 1 Goblin Guide if you can. If possible, don't play a Goyf until he'll be big enough to survive a Bolt. Don't play a bunch of lands unless you have to to help avoid a Price of Progress blow out -- you can also Waste your own lands or keep Daze'd island duals back in hand unless you really need the mana. I am usually able to pull through against Burn 2-1.

UR Delver is another story, and is closer to being a 'real' deck to be concerned about. As BUG becomes more of a metagame monster, I'd not be surprised to see more players pick up the UR archetype.

[KobeBryan]

Hymn essentially gains us 6~ life. Amazing spell in this matchup.
If Deathrite Shaman survives, he can gain incremental life from dead creatures.
Goyfs and Tombstalkers race and can block their smaller threats. Early Delvers can't be ignored for forever and can potentially outrace their burn spells.
Daze and Force of Will can prevent their big spells from resolving, such as a lethal price of Progress.
Abrupt Decay takes care of any creatures or fancy spells they may try to bring in such as Sulfuric Vortex or Meekstone.
We play 4 Brainstorms, 4 Ponders and a Sylvan Library. Mono Red burn is forced to play from the top of their deck.

Out of the board, we have Spell Pierce, Scavenging Ooze, some builds have Jitte, and others may run BEB/Hydroblast.

Honestly, this matchup isn't as bad as it used to be, assuming you are running Team America and NOT BUG control. Force of Will/Daze their turn 1 Goblin Guide if you can. If possible, don't play a Goyf until he'll be big enough to survive a Bolt. Don't play a bunch of lands unless you have to to help avoid a Price of Progress blow out -- you can also Waste your own lands or keep Daze'd island duals back in hand unless you really need the mana. I am usually able to pull through against Burn 2-1.

UR Delver is another story, and is closer to being a 'real' deck to be concerned about. As BUG becomes more of a metagame monster, I'd not be surprised to see more players pick up the UR archetype.

I wasn't really playing burn, but more UR delver. I actually took him out and brought in removal. I may be doing something wrong.

I also don't run jittes and ooze in the board. Maybe thats my problem.


4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Hymn to Tourach

1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Underground Sea
2 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs

1 Sylvan Library


SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Snuff Out

[kingsey]

Has everyone dropped stifle?

I've kept mine in trimming sylvan, 1 hymn and 1 ponder.

I run 3 stifle, and 3 hymn. Rest of the deck is the same as Dans.

It has been great everygame. Am I the only one who is keeping stifle in maindeck?:cry:

[KobeBryan]

Has everyone dropped stifle?

I've kept mine in trimming sylvan, 1 hymn and 1 ponder.

I run 3 stifle, and 3 hymn. Rest of the deck is the same as Dans.

It has been great everygame. Am I the only one who is keeping stifle in maindeck?:cry:


Hymn i can see you take out, but 1 ponder and a sylvan library is rough

[kingsey]

I havn't missed them vs having the stifle.

Saved my biscuits vs deed last night. :laugh:

[Amazing Larry]

Has anyone used Vapor Snag in their builds. I'm really not a huge fan off Snuff Out/Dismember, and thought that it might be possible to replace them with a couple snags. It does boost the blue count in the deck, and the damage is a nice little bonus.

[Water_Wizard]

Has anyone used Vapor Snag in their builds. I'm really not a huge fan off Snuff Out/Dismember, and thought that it might be possible to replace them with a couple snags. It does boost the blue count in the deck, and the damage is a nice little bonus.

Yes, I've given it a whirl and I think it ranges from awesome to lackluster. In certain situations, I would rather have a Vapor Snag over any other removal, but in others, Vapor Snag is just plain awful. Snagging a Tombstalker or a flipped Delver = awesome. Snagging a Snapcaster Mage, Stoneforge Mystic, Mogg War Marshal, Goblin Ringleader, Baleful Strix, Shardless Agent, Vendilion Clique, Tarmogoyf, or any other creature with a coming into play effect and/or low casting cost (aka easy re-cast-ability) = lackluster.

I think it depends up your build and your expected meta. Vapor Snag has the nice benefit of being able to 'save' your own creature, perhaps vs. a control match-up. It is also superb in removing key blockers to push through the last points of damage. Vapor Snag has some nice interactions with discard as well. However, I wonder if a card like Disfigure just isn't better?

[Amazing Larry]

Yes, I've given it a whirl and I think it ranges from awesome to lackluster. In certain situations, I would rather have a Vapor Snag over any other removal, but in others, Vapor Snag is just plain awful. Snagging a Tombstalker or a flipped Delver = awesome. Snagging a Snapcaster Mage, Stoneforge Mystic, Mogg War Marshal, Goblin Ringleader, Baleful Strix, Shardless Agent, Vendilion Clique, Tarmogoyf, or any other creature with a coming into play effect and/or low casting cost (aka easy re-cast-ability) = lackluster.

I think it depends up your build and your expected meta. Vapor Snag has the nice benefit of being able to 'save' your own creature, perhaps vs. a control match-up. It is also superb in removing key blockers to push through the last points of damage. Vapor Snag has some nice interactions with discard as well. However, I wonder if a card like Disfigure just isn't better?

That's true on the snags, I guess it can be awful against a great many creatures in Legacy. Disfigure is interesting, the only problem I see with it is that it does nothing to Tombstalkers, and most Goyfs or Knights. Then again, I suppose Submerge is the best answer for Stalkers in the mirror, and Decay hits everything else worth hitting. Maybe 2 Disfigure to go along with 4 Decay? Think I might try them out, hopefully I get time to test this weekend.

[Water_Wizard]

That's true on the snags, I guess it can be awful against a great many creatures in Legacy. Disfigure is interesting, the only problem I see with it is that it does nothing to Tombstalkers, and most Goyfs or Knights. Then again, I suppose Submerge is the best answer for Stalkers in the mirror, and Decay hits everything else worth hitting. Maybe 2 Disfigure to go along with 4 Decay? Think I might try them out, hopefully I get time to test this weekend.

The major reason I like Disfigure is because it is a turn-1 answer to opposing Deathrites.

You lose the flip, your opponent goes fetch->land->Deathrite. You have to take that Deathrite out. If you let it live, it just opens up too many possibilities for your opponent's turn 2. Do they ramp in Liliana or Shardless Agent, do they Wasteland your land and then Hymn you?

Disfigure (or Dismember) is the answer to turn 1 Deathrite. While it's true that Disfigure does not hit everything, it is the best answer that we have.

[Dzra]

Has everyone dropped stifle?

I've kept mine in trimming sylvan, 1 hymn and 1 ponder.

I run 3 stifle, and 3 hymn. Rest of the deck is the same as Dans.

It has been great everygame. Am I the only one who is keeping stifle in maindeck?:cry:

Theoretically I like Stifle a lot too, but I think the idea is that the deck has moved more towards tapout and away from leaving mana up for things like Stifle, Snare, and Pierce.

[Maximus]

I went to my first event Wednesday evening near Washington DC. I had a couple strategical issues come up, and I'd like to address them to see how other people regard them.

Tempo- I've had this topic come up with multiple players, and I'm consistently told the same thing: I should be putting down a threat and going in, and that to not play to that is a mistake. Quantifying what "tempo" means is difficult, and even if there were some uniform definition I'm not sure it would be correct to always play to it anyway. As a point of contrast, I tried taking to the mindset provided by Drew Levin and his two rug delver articles from the last year since the decks operate pretty similarly on paper. He describes the disruption as versatile and cheaply-costed, and that it's okay to trade one for one with the opponent if you have a way to win eventually.

Now this isn't to say that it's correct, but it's been working pretty well for me so far. Thoughtseize in particular seems to aid this strategy immensely, telling me how to prioritize my other disruption, telling me when I should try to race the opponent, telling me exactly what to Ponder for, etc. The way Thoughtseize has played out for me, I either find myself forming a plan around it to play more aggressively, or it becomes "I hate this card, get rid of it" so I don't lose to any one card...at least immediately. Slow-rolling games also helps just by openly suggesting to my opponent to play around Stifle, which is not as good of a bonus but at least it's something.

I also had an interesting game against rug where I chose to go second to have an extra card, but I had several players tell me that this was a bad idea. From my very limited experience, a mulligan is brutal because I don't have any ways to make up the loss of a card, so going second becomes a way to trade half of a turn for the extra card. Finally, I got into another discussion about turn 1 Ponder, where I said that if I'm not looking for anything in particular, I'll just pass and hold the ponder until I know what I should be looking for.

This covers a lot of diverse angles on how the deck operates and at what speed. I guess my overall question is, which slower lines of play are correct, or am I approaching the play incorrectly on a theoretical level? Also, why? I know some of these questions are very play-specific, but I'd like to stay general at first to use it as a basis for future learning.

Stifle- I had some interesting plays with this card the entire night. Often, I saved it looking to counter a specific action in a match rather than blowing it as a land destruction. Other times, I intentionally waited for a Brainstorm to use it on the fetch shuffle as a weird counter. I've been told that Stifle is supposed to destroy a land 90% of the time, and if that is not the case then it's a bad card. Are there any opinions on sandbagging a stifle for other utility purposes and intentionally ignoring fetches?

To be clear, I'm more interested in technical proficiency and playing the deck correctly over card choices. Card choice obviously matters but I think approaching competitive play as a new player makes the technical aspect more important.

[wcm8]

There really are no hard rules for when to play Ponder, as sometimes it is correct to play it on turn 1, and other times it's better to wait and see what your opponent is playing. It's not really quite like Brainstorm since it doesn't necessarily gain in power the same way the longer you hold it, and in fact since it's a sorcery you may want to play it earlier in order to spend your subsequent turns actually doing something more meaningful with the available mana.

We also play 4 copies, so it's not quite the precious resource that control decks running 1 or 2 see it as. It is pretty fantastic and crucial for winning the top-deck war.

If I'm on the play against an unknown opponent and don't have a Delver, Daze, FoW or Shaman but *do* have a Ponder, I will likely Ponder in an effort to find either a Daze/FoW for their potential turn 1 play or to find a suitable turn 2 play. Sometimes you also need to burn a turn 1 Ponder in an effort to find additional lands if you're land-light or know you're up against a deck packing Wastelands.

If you're on the draw, it's typically easier to know what to Ponder for, or if you even need to based on the rest of your hand.

Thoughtseize is a great strategic card, and I think it is a suitable replacement for Hymn to Tourach if your metagame is more focused around combo and control. However, Hymn is a devastating early play and fits in with the current 'tap out' model of playstyle that seems to be working well for TA builds.

[Jessenator]

Jammed about 5 matches against my friend playing OmniTell. I think I lost 4 of the game 1s. I realized how weak this deck is to the OmniTell matchup. Hymn only does so much, they can fetch basics to prevent wasteland easily. And with Sol-Lands it's very easy to play around Daze. Hymn is only occasionally good (its an attrition card) and it often hits cantrips and lands which they already have in their hand. They also run Dazes, which can punish us for playing our cantrips / applying pressure too early.

We ended up 2-3 (him taking 1 match over me). I think the sideboard configuration should be better to help with this matchup. Not really sure what.

[Jessenator]

I went to my first event Wednesday evening near Washington DC. I had a couple strategical issues come up, and I'd like to address them to see how other people regard them.

Tempo- I've had this topic come up with multiple players, and I'm consistently told the same thing: I should be putting down a threat and going in, and that to not play to that is a mistake. Quantifying what "tempo" means is difficult, and even if there were some uniform definition I'm not sure it would be correct to always play to it anyway. As a point of contrast, I tried taking to the mindset provided by Drew Levin and his two rug delver articles from the last year since the decks operate pretty similarly on paper. He describes the disruption as versatile and cheaply-costed, and that it's okay to trade one for one with the opponent if you have a way to win eventually.

Now this isn't to say that it's correct, but it's been working pretty well for me so far. Thoughtseize in particular seems to aid this strategy immensely, telling me how to prioritize my other disruption, telling me when I should try to race the opponent, telling me exactly what to Ponder for, etc. The way Thoughtseize has played out for me, I either find myself forming a plan around it to play more aggressively, or it becomes "I hate this card, get rid of it" so I don't lose to any one card...at least immediately. Slow-rolling games also helps just by openly suggesting to my opponent to play around Stifle, which is not as good of a bonus but at least it's something.

I also had an interesting game against rug where I chose to go second to have an extra card, but I had several players tell me that this was a bad idea. From my very limited experience, a mulligan is brutal because I don't have any ways to make up the loss of a card, so going second becomes a way to trade half of a turn for the extra card. Finally, I got into another discussion about turn 1 Ponder, where I said that if I'm not looking for anything in particular, I'll just pass and hold the ponder until I know what I should be looking for.

This covers a lot of diverse angles on how the deck operates and at what speed. I guess my overall question is, which slower lines of play are correct, or am I approaching the play incorrectly on a theoretical level? Also, why? I know some of these questions are very play-specific, but I'd like to stay general at first to use it as a basis for future learning.

Stifle- I had some interesting plays with this card the entire night. Often, I saved it looking to counter a specific action in a match rather than blowing it as a land destruction. Other times, I intentionally waited for a Brainstorm to use it on the fetch shuffle as a weird counter. I've been told that Stifle is supposed to destroy a land 90% of the time, and if that is not the case then it's a bad card. Are there any opinions on sandbagging a stifle for other utility purposes and intentionally ignoring fetches?

To be clear, I'm more interested in technical proficiency and playing the deck correctly over card choices. Card choice obviously matters but I think approaching competitive play as a new player makes the technical aspect more important.

I don't think the new BUG Delver deck is really the "tempo" shell that people are used to with the UW / RUG a little bit back. BUG decks play cards like Sylvan Library, Tombstalker, Hymn to Tourarch. Hymn and Sylvan provide attrition against the grindier matchup and Tombstalker does what Tombstalker does. BUG is different from RUG in the fact that RUG's cards are significantly losing value each turn unless you have a boardstate that forces the opponent to play into it. They run cards like Stifles to strap the opponent on mana, forcing them to play into their soft-counterspells.

BUG doesn't necessarily do that. Delver of Secrets is still a threat the opponent must answer at any stage of the game, and Hymn to Tourarch is usually a very good top deck regardless. Tombstalker allows you to go over the top of many decks mid-late game. Deathrite allows you to grind the opponent out and gain access to many more plays on turn 2-3 with the help of fetches.

I don't think this new BUG Delver shell is the only way to build it. I still have a thing for decks with Sinkholes / Stifles, especially with Deathrite, turn 2 Sinkhole backed up with Daze seems very very good. If you truly want a tempo BUG Delver build, you need to refine the decklist and change it. Probably changing Hymn -> Thoughtseize is one of the first thing I would do. Adding Spell Pierces in the mainboard for additional disruption. RUG has many of the "blow-out" hands where they have everything in their opening 7 that answers your first 3-4 cards you lay down. This deck does not seem to do that from the matches I've played with and against it.

I think taking a slower-grindier line of play with this deck is acceptable, but I wouldn't want to ever be on the draw against RUG Delver in my opinion. Deathrite is probably one of the more important cards in that matchup and slamming it down turn 1 without disruption (or even them main phasing a burn spell on it), is something I want to do. I hope this answers some of your questions about this deck.

[Water_Wizard]

Thoughtseize v. Hymn

Hymn is a 2 cc card. The 'stock' list runs 11-15 turn-1 1-casters (3 Deathrite, 4 Delver, 4 Ponder, 4 Brainstorm- if you want to cast Brainstorm turn 1).

The 'stock' list runs 5 turn-2 casters (4 Goyf, 1 Sylvan Library) - I discount Abrupt Decay and Tombstalker because you don't really want to Abrupt Decay on turn 2- maybe something crazy like Counterbalance or Stoneforge Mystic, but even if the opponent played a turn 2 Goyf, I would still opt to play my own or to Hymn them. Tombstalker - you aren't going to have delve 8 on turn 2.

So, the main reason I run 4 Hymn over 4 Thoughtseize is that it better fits the deck's mana curve.

I'll play Thoughtseize in the board all day long. Also, vs. aggro/burn, you don't really want Thoughtseize (due to the -2) and Hymn is still good.

Hymn also has the possibility of hitting lands and other random goodness. If an opponent keeps a 2-3 land hand, plays a land turn 1 and you happen to hit his/her remaining lands, then you are on the fast track to a win.

Hymn helps grow Goyf bigger. Hymn fits better with the Wasteland plan (because you can discard lands.)

[Demonic_Attorney]

Thoughtseize v. Hymn

Hymn is a 2 cc card. The 'stock' list runs 11-15 turn-1 1-casters (3 Deathrite, 4 Delver, 4 Ponder, 4 Brainstorm- if you want to cast Brainstorm turn 1).

The 'stock' list runs 5 turn-2 casters (4 Goyf, 1 Sylvan Library) - I discount Abrupt Decay and Tombstalker because you don't really want to Abrupt Decay on turn 2- maybe something crazy like Counterbalance or Stoneforge Mystic, but even if the opponent played a turn 2 Goyf, I would still opt to play my own or to Hymn them. Tombstalker - you aren't going to have delve 8 on turn 2.

So, the main reason I run 4 Hymn over 4 Thoughtseize is that it better fits the deck's mana curve.

I'll play Thoughtseize in the board all day long. Also, vs. aggro/burn, you don't really want Thoughtseize (due to the -2) and Hymn is still good.

Hymn also has the possibility of hitting lands and other random goodness. If an opponent keeps a 2-3 land hand, plays a land turn 1 and you happen to hit his/her remaining lands, then you are on the fast track to a win.

Hymn helps grow Goyf bigger. Hymn fits better with the Wasteland plan (because you can discard lands.)

I agree.

Hym is far superior in this deck then Thoughtseize.

In fact, I would not even play Thoughtseize in the sideboard as when you board Thoughtseize in, it is likely not to get creatures but rather it is likely boarded in against combo, control or the bad burn match up and paying the two life is painful and/ or unnecessary in these circumstances. Therefore, I prefer Hym in the main deck and duress in the sideboard over Thoughtseize in the context of this particular deck.

[mike1987]

Speaking of aggro version, what do you guys think of this version here.

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9651&iddeck=70464

He top-ed a 55 man event a while ago and somehow it seems to be good in the european metagame.

[Water_Wizard]

Speaking of aggro version, what do you guys think of this version here.

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9651&iddeck=70464

He top-ed a 55 man event a while ago and somehow it seems to be good in the european metagame.

Here's a similar list I posted a while back. I had good results with it. People don't like the Mongoose/Shaman interaction, but it was never an issue for me. I only jammed about 5 matches, so perhaps it could be due to a lack of testing. I would up the Shaman count to 4 and I would replace the Ghastly Demises with 2 Disfigures. Other than that, the list was pretty smooth.


Here's my list:

4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant

3 Ghastly Demise
4 Inquision of Kozilek
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Liliana of the Viel
3 Hymn to Tourach

4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest


Sideboard

4 Flusterstorm
3 Spell Pierce
4 Engineered Plague
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Maelstrom Pulse


Originally, I started testing out Delvers. However, I found that my sorcery/instant count wasn't high enough to readily support flips, so I changed to Nimble Mongooses. I was running a 2/2 Inquisition of Kozilke/Thoughseize split, but I recently switched to all IoKs because the Thoughtseize life loss was relevant and I wasn't finding targets that I couldn't take with IoK. Life loss is a little more precious to me since I am running Bob. I like Liliana, I find she locks games down, just my personal preference.
I didn't want to run Force of Will with Dark Confidant, so I cut all main-deck counterspells. If I face strong combo, I can remove the 3 Ghastly Demise and 4 Abrupt Decay for the 7 counters in the board (assuming my opponent doesn't do something cute like bring in Defense Grid. I could also cut the Mongooses and leave the Abrupt Decays in). The Engineered Plague are solely for a Goblin infestation I am dealing with ;)
So, my perspective on Thoughtseize vs. IoK is tailored to the build that I am running. One of the reasons I keep the two Pulses in the board is to hit larger targets that I can't get with IoK or Abrupt Decay.
The only card I really don't like in this deck is Ghastly Demise. I've thought about running Disfigure. Vendetta. Snuff Out. Darkblast. Go for the Throat. Maybe I'll try a 1 Darkblast two Go for the Throat split. Or Dismember, as NiteWolf suggests below. We are going for BB already.

Here's the list Reid Duke used to win the SCG Invitational: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9803&iddeck=71582

He goes Delver-less and with a higher Planeswalker count. My only complaint about this list is that it cannot support FOW in the sideboard. Reid's list runs 11 U cards (1 Clique, 4 Brainstorm, 2 Ponder, 3 Jace, 1 Daze) with 3 FOW, 1 Jace, and 1 V. Clique in the board.

If I want FOW, I usually don't want Jace (at least not on the draw). Therefore, you are cutting your U count to 12 cards (3 FOW, 2 Clique, 4 Brainstorm, 2 Ponder, 1 Daze) - This is not enough to support FOW! I'm curious to hear Reid's take on this. Maybe Reid left his Jaces in to up the U count to 16, but do you really want to tap out on turn 3 or 4 to cast Jace vs. a Combo deck? My thought is that Reid didn't face much combo all day, so it wasn't an issue. I built this deck last night, realized Reid's error pretty quickly, and replaced these slots with Flusterstorms. I'm still not sold on Flusterstorm. Perhaps, Spell Pierce? There really aren't too many good answers unless we up the main-deck U count.

[catmint]

Here's the list Reid Duke used to win the SCG Invitational: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9803&iddeck=71582

He goes Delver-less and with a higher Planeswalker count. My only complaint about this list is that it cannot support FOW in the sideboard. Reid's list runs 11 U cards (1 Clique, 4 Brainstorm, 2 Ponder, 3 Jace, 1 Daze) with 3 FOW, 1 Jace, and 1 V. Clique in the board.

If I want FOW, I usually don't want Jace (at least not on the draw). Therefore, you are cutting your U count to 12 cards (3 FOW, 2 Clique, 4 Brainstorm, 2 Ponder, 1 Daze) - This is not enough to support FOW! I'm curious to hear Reid's take on this. Maybe Reid left his Jaces in to up the U count to 16, but do you really want to tap out on turn 3 or 4 to cast Jace vs. a Combo deck? My thought is that Reid didn't face much combo all day, so it wasn't an issue. I built this deck last night, realized Reid's error pretty quickly, and replaced these slots with Flusterstorms. I'm still not sold on Flusterstorm. Perhaps, Spell Pierce? There really aren't too many good answers unless we up the main-deck U count.

"Delver less with a higher planeswalker & land count, no tombstalker and no counter-magic" aka playing a different deck ;) Blue count becomes an issue, if you choose confidant over snapcaster mage and Hymn/Liliana over blue disruption. I think Reid's version of BUG control/midrange was tuned for a meta where he does not expect a lot of combo. The single daze is also a funny mindfuck. :)

[wcm8]

Testing Results for December: A Three-Part Post

Part One: Decklist and Card Choice Rationale
Part Two: Daily Results
Part Three: Analysis and Conclusions

Maindeck:
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
1 Sylvan Library

Sideboard:
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Spell Pierce
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Krosan Grip
1 Darkblast
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Dread of Night

The maindeck has been discussed at length. It has proven itself in several 200+ player events, so I don’t think I need to argue its strength.

The sideboard is a modification of Dan’s finals list from the SCG Open a few weeks back. I found Liliana to be a fantastic substitute for Diabolic Edict, since she comes in against a wider variety of decks and can be played pro-actively against your Show and Tell Opponents, while also dodging the Misdirections and Diverts those decks tend to play. Obviously there are advantages to Edict, but Lili also plays into my overall plan of becoming a midrange control deck post-board in matchups that require such an approach.

I cut one Pulse for a Grip as a hedge against Batterskull. Pulse is still good for killing big permanents such as Planeswalkers or clearing the board of a bunch of tokens.

I added a single Dread of Night to help against Lingering Souls, Mother of Runes, Thalia, and other various annoying White creatures. If I could have more room or wasn’t trying to beat a wider variety of decks, I’d consider adding more. It is a narrow card, but this deck really struggles against these sorts of strategies, and having a miser’s one-mana ‘I Win’ card is nice. Perhaps more are warranted.

Jitte is sometimes tough to justify, but it has the potential to just overtake games. You’ll definitely want it in your tribal matchups.

I made no modifications to 75 for the duration of the testing period, and even after all is said and done I still feel pretty confident in the choices.

[wcm8]

Part Two: Daily Results

I sometimes get the opportunity during the week to play an hour or two of MtG. This period of time was unique since I was not traveling heavily for work, and was able to play a greater volume of games than I normally can (or really feel the desire to, since I can only stomach so much…) The program I used was Cockatrice, logged onto their free server. I generally started my own games titled ‘competitive’ in the hopes of drawing in opponents with a competitive edge. Obviously these results need to be taken with a grain of salt, since with no stakes on the line, people seem to be more likely to keep loose hands or play un-optimized deck lists.

I tried to name the decks as best as I could tell, obviously there were a few brews that did not fall easily into pre-existing deck archetype-naming conventions.

Here are the unedited match results. I did not omit any matches, except in cases where the opponent disconnected before finishing game 1.

12/11: 2-1 Burn; 2-0 Bant Tempo; 2-1 B/G Pox Control

12/12: 2-1 BUG Control (Dark Confidant, Shaman, Snapcaster, Jace, etc.); 2-1 Combo Elves; 2-0 UW Stoneblade; 2-0 UW Stoneblade; 2-0 The Gate (mono black aggro/control); 2-0 “ “ same opponent; 2-1 Dragon Stompy (mono red Blood Moon); 2-0 High Tide; 1-0 B/G Hexmage Depths; 2-0 Team America (mirror); 0-2 Nic Fit (Scapeshift version)

12/13: 2-0 ANT; 2-1 The Gate; 0-2 Esperblade; 0-2 Esperblade; 1-0 Rock BGW; 1-0 Combo Elves

12/14: 1-0 UW Blade; 1-0 UB Mill; 2-0 UW Miracles with Energy Field/Helm; 2-0 Aluren; 2-0 TES; 0-2 Haunted Zoo (GWR aggro Zoo with Lingering Souls and Thalia); 2-1 RUG Cascade

12/15: 2-1 UB Tempo (with Death’s Shadow and Niv Magus Elemental); 1-2 RUG Tempo (stifle stifle waste is still good); 2-0 Lands; 1-0 Academy Rector Combo; 2-0 Dredge; 2-0 Nic Fit (B/G); 2-1 BUG Control; 2-0 BUG Tempo (stifle, confidant); 2-1 Pox

12/17: 2-1 Enchantress (GW); 2-1 Aggro Loam

12/18: 2-0 Hypergenesis; 2-0 Zombardment; 2-0 Mono Blue Show and Tell; 0-2 UW Delver Blade; 2-0 Esperblade; 2-0 Nic Fit (BUG)

12/19: 2-1 ANT; 2-1 Esperblade; 1-2 Esperblade; 0-2 Esperblade

12/20: 1-0 RUG; 2-0 Eldrazi Ramp; 2-1 Death and Taxes (mono white aggro/utility)

12/21: 2-1 Affinity; 0-2 Lands; 2-0 Lands; 1-2 Goblins (mono red); 0-2 BG Pox; 2-0 Goblins (RW)

12/22: 2-0 Enchantress (UG); 2-0 BUG Cascade Control; 0-2 Bant Aggro/Control; 2-0 Mono White Control; 2-1 Merfolk; 1-2 Burn

12/23: 2-1 Death and Taxes; 2-1 Affinity; 2-0 Lands; 2-0 UR Delver; 2-1 TES; 2-0 TES; 1-2 RUG; 2-1 RUG; 2-0 RUG; 2-0 Deadguy Ale (BW aggro)

12/24: 2-0 UB Artifact/Tezzeret Control; 2-0 Reanimator; 2-1 Burn; 0-2 Kobold Combo (sometimes you just don’t have the FoW for their Glimpse..); 2-1 Show and Tell; 2-1 Nic Fit (BGW Birthing Pod); 2-0 Nic Fit (“ “); 2-0 Pox; 2-0 BUG Cascade

12/25: 2-0 Jund; 0-2 ANT (god hands); 2-1 ANT; 2-0 Goblins (mono Red); 2-0 Show and Tell

[wcm8]

Part Three: Analysis and Conclusions:

Lingering Souls is perhaps the most difficult card for the deck to beat, especially in game 1. It dodges Hymn, and basically gains upwards of 20~ Life, buying your opponent time to find and resolve a Jace or Batterskull. The sideboard options are there, I’m just not sure how to fit more in without losing too much to other matchups. As you can see, UW Blade was easily dispatched, whereas the Esperblade matchups were more dismal.

Deathrite Shaman helps beat decks you have no business beating, even in game 1 (Dredge, Lands, Dragon Stompy, etc.). This is the most significant addition to the deck aside from Abrupt Decay.

I don’t miss Stifle, though it certainly would be nice to have in tempo mirrors. Sometimes you’re just going to get choked on mana and lose to Wastelands, Stifle and Daze. But frequently enough you’ll make those cards look silly thanks to just playing out Duals and establishing Deathrite.

How difficult Nic Fit will be seems to depend upon the particular build. I think the Scapeshift version is the most powerful and resilient. If you can, counter their Explorers since without the acceleration they’re basically playing an EDH Timmy deck.

Playing the aggressor in game 1’s against opponents that haven’t yet sided in a ton of removal seems to work great. If I feel it necessary, I can drop the tempo angle (sometimes even completely to the point of siding out Delver of Secrets) and bring in the big guns for the long game. The flaw I see in more pure controlling versions of BUG is that frequently the grindy, controlling approach is wrong for the matchup, and you’d be better off pressuring the opponent with Delvers and Tombstalkers instead of durdling around with Baleful Strix or whatnot.

Speaking of which, Tombstalker not getting hit by Inquisition or Decay was occasionally relevant.

Just two sideboard graveyard hate cards seemed to be enough to go along with the Deathrites to win these sort of matchups. I would not be surprised if we began to see these sort of decks quickly phase out of popularity due to the presence of both Deathrite and Rest in Peace.

The only change I would currently consider to the maindeck is perhaps adding in a second Sylvan Library. Not sure if I would cut a Hymn, Daze or something else to make room.

Online, there is no established metagame, although you do tend to see people test out decks that top 8’d the most recent SCG Open. Knowing this, I would configure the sideboard for a tournament based at least partly around this.

[nitewolf9]

I'm currently trying to figure out the esper stone blade matchup, but I think that a couple of k grips and a couple of plagues would go a long way and not be overly narrow. Couple that with a couple of jaces and perhaps a pulse or two and that might work. I think with this plan you leave in force of will and cut daze, decay and disfigure for those cards and whatever else we decide to bring in (a jitte and cliques if you play them).

[catmint]

I think the problem that BUG tempo has with stoneblade is on many differnt levels.

1) Primarily because stoneblad has a shitload of removal and unlike canadian BUG tempo has no shroud and relies on hymning away the hand hoping to get there.

2) That Batterskull trumps the race - and therefore stoneforge has to die which is not certain since BUG tempo does not play a lot of remvoal itself.

3) That there is no burn & redblast to answer their late game trump jace.

4) Lingering Souls can often play the role of buying time to protect mentioned trumps, but imo it is not the primary problem so 2-3 dread of night in the SB vs. stoneblade or Plague will sometimes feel like a mulligan in matchup where souls does not matter.

If you compare this problems with Canadian:
- Shroud to make their swords, path - snapcaster shit less harmful
- Stifle for EE - Stoneforge, Snapcaster & batterskull ETB trigger or their SB Terminus
(To be fair a resolved batterskull is harder to deal with for Canadian but it does not happen that much)
- 6+ 1cmc removal spells for Stoneforge
- Forked Bolt & Sulfur Elemental for Lingering Souls
- Red blast & Burn vs. Jace

Because of all that I feel very comfortable going for a long game with Canadian or if the draw is right stifle+waste will never really let them in the game. Overall I think attacking the mana development rather than the hand is stronger since they topdeck pretty good.

So beeing aware of all that what can you do:
Of course you bring in jaces (lilianas out of course), but still you should not try to become a worse version of BUG control and keep up the tempo route.

- A card that I came to appreciate very much in RUG is Plaxmanta. Keeping that Delver/Goyf/Stalker alive and gaining a 2/2 body out of the deal will prove to be game winning. It is also a card that is awesome vs. Decay decks since they just rely on decay to work.

- I would use Maelstrom Pulse instead of K-Grip since it is a good answer to tokens as well as Batterskull or Jace (altough once he resolves it is likely to late).

- Vendilion clique is a very strong card against that deck, but I guess most people play it already in the 75.

- FoW & Daze mediocre: out - Spell Pierce & Spell Snare good

- Sylvan Library worth Gold

The matchup will remain hard though...
A sidenote: The BUG control version plays a similar jace game but I feel deathrite & wasteland bring an edge. Stoneforge & Lingering souls are pimarily a concern on the defense.

[KobeBryan]

oh good...it looks like it wasn't just me having fits dealing with a batterskull and jace.

I don't run any maelstrom pulses in my 75 or vendillion clique.

[sdematt]

oh good...it looks like it wasn't just me having fits dealing with a batterskull and jace.

I don't run any maelstrom pulses in my 75 or vendillion clique.

/Looks under hood.

Well, there's your problem right there.

-Matt

[wcm8]

Changes to main deck:
-1 Hymn to Tourach
+1 Sylvan Library

Library is frequently the more powerful turn 2 play, and is amazing in every matchup. Even if it's a matchup where you can't afford to pay much life, a Mirri's Guile every turn is still a powerful effect (but against the majority of combo and control decks, you can easily afford to pay 12+ life). Hymn is often actually better a bit later in the game, instead of against a full grip in the early turns. Library will help facilitate flipping Delver, as well as granting Goyf +1/+1 if it's countered/removed. Library is a much more powerful topdeck if you've both gone into topdeck mode, whereas additional discard is just dead. Many decks are beginning to side in Misdirection to deal with Hymn, Ancestral Visions, and Abrupt Decay -- obviously Library ignores this.

I sometimes side out Hymn, especially if I'm on the draw. I can't think of many matchups where I would side out Library. Think of it as interstitial consistency pieces #9-10, to go along with the playset of Ponder and Brainstorm. This would further increase the power of miser singletons in your sideboard, giving you a much better chance of finding them in a reasonable timeframe.

Drawing two sucks, but often so does drawing two Tombstalkers, two Jaces, two Lili's, etc. It still doesn't mean that you wouldn't want to increase the consistency of finding these cards.

Finally, the most important reason is for those blasted decks packing Swords to Plowshares. With Library, you can turn that life gain into more cards, slightly offsetting the brutal nature of their removal. WXx decks in Legacy also tend to have a slower clock, thus you're generally safe to use the Suicide Black approach with Sylvan and pay chunks of your life total to win the damage/board-position race.

Seriously, Library is Green's version of Brainstorm. I'm not sure why I didn't think of increasing the number of them earlier. I might even consider going up to three. Then we'd essentially be playing a better version of The Rock. :cool:

[sdematt]

Hold your horses there, wcm8 :tongue:

Just because it's Christmas doesn't mean I won't rip on your for that. I'm playing three right now, and it's been very good. Now you can just start playing good creatures and THEN you'd have a deck! :tongue:

Merry Christmas, gentlemen.

-Matt

[Maximus]

The library is definitely amazing, although I cut the 4th Daze rather than the discard.

edit:

Dan, why V. Clique against Stoneblade? The body loses its mana-efficiency from Lingering Souls, which we're already losing to. I could see hitting an equipment when they try to ability it into play, but even then mystic plays the tertiary threat against us after jace/souls. Without that, it's trading 3 mana and a card for a token from souls/jitte, not a winning deal. Even in the event that it wins you the game, almost any other efficient body could have done the same. It might be better to go for the 15th creature (another deathrite/tombstalker) or even another scavenging ooze to eat the flashback before the clique.

edit 2:

Is it possibly worth it to side in thoughtseize? Having plagues to deal with tokens and knocking off jace / protecting plague from opposing discard seems like a classy one-two punch.

[KobeBryan]

The library is definitely amazing, although I cut the 4th Daze rather than the discard.

edit:

Dan, why V. Clique against Stoneblade? The body loses its mana-efficiency from Lingering Souls, which we're already losing to. I could see hitting an equipment when they try to ability it into play, but even then mystic plays the tertiary threat against us after jace/souls. Without that, it's trading 3 mana and a card for a token from souls/jitte, not a winning deal. Even in the event that it wins you the game, almost any other efficient body could have done the same. It might be better to go for the 15th creature (another deathrite/tombstalker) or even another scavenging ooze to eat the flashback before the clique.

edit 2:

Is it possibly worth it to side in thoughtseize? Having plagues to deal with tokens and knocking off jace / protecting plague from opposing discard seems like a classy one-two punch.

i've been taking out hymn for thoughtseize when i play against them. Not sure if this is the best strategy though.

[sdematt]

i've been taking out hymn for thoughtseize when i play against them. Not sure if this is the best strategy though.

Against Stoneblade, I bring in Hymns from the board when I'm playing Junk. You don't have to worry about mana stability since they run few Wastelands. However, you need targeted discard on the draw since you need to grab the Equipment that they fetch with SFM, unless you feel like playing a game of Roulette that turn (which can just be played the next turn once you nab their Equipment).



-Matt

[Jessenator]

I don't think you can tempo out Stoneblade in that matchup, especially postboard. In my opinion, going more of a midrange perspective should fare the deck well. Lingering Souls can easily be answered by Engineered Plague (which I think is a staple in the sideboard due to the deck's problems with tribal archtypes).

Vendillion Clique is extremely good in this matchup due to the acceleration from the Deathrite since it deals with Batterskull and JTMS quite well..

Sylvan Library is better than gold, 2 in the mainboard is questionable since it could be bad against some fast decks (goblins, TES..). But bringing 1 in from the sideboard is something I definitely can see.

Still debating between this deck and 3-4 color Stoneblade for SCG Columbus, will be testing with some 8-mans on MTGO. I'll update the results tonight / tomorrow. I feel I want some sort of counter in the sideboard. I like Hatfield's 1-of Counterspell, and Spell Pierce is good to a certain extent.

[nitewolf9]

Just for the record, Alix played Countersquall, not Counterspell. It was a typo. Go ahead and look it up, I'll wait.

Hitting double blue and double black early is still a problem, and you aren't bringing the card in against creature heavy decks anyway.

[mike1987]

Here's a similar list I posted a while back. I had good results with it. People don't like the Mongoose/Shaman interaction, but it was never an issue for me. I only jammed about 5 matches, so perhaps it could be due to a lack of testing. I would up the Shaman count to 4 and I would replace the Ghastly Demises with 2 Disfigures. Other than that, the list was pretty smooth.



Here's the list Reid Duke used to win the SCG Invitational: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9803&iddeck=71582

He goes Delver-less and with a higher Planeswalker count. My only complaint about this list is that it cannot support FOW in the sideboard. Reid's list runs 11 U cards (1 Clique, 4 Brainstorm, 2 Ponder, 3 Jace, 1 Daze) with 3 FOW, 1 Jace, and 1 V. Clique in the board.

If I want FOW, I usually don't want Jace (at least not on the draw). Therefore, you are cutting your U count to 12 cards (3 FOW, 2 Clique, 4 Brainstorm, 2 Ponder, 1 Daze) - This is not enough to support FOW! I'm curious to hear Reid's take on this. Maybe Reid left his Jaces in to up the U count to 16, but do you really want to tap out on turn 3 or 4 to cast Jace vs. a Combo deck? My thought is that Reid didn't face much combo all day, so it wasn't an issue. I built this deck last night, realized Reid's error pretty quickly, and replaced these slots with Flusterstorms. I'm still not sold on Flusterstorm. Perhaps, Spell Pierce? There really aren't too many good answers unless we up the main-deck U count.


I altered my deck a little by cutting the confidants and liliana and adding tombstalkers. Will playtest it a little

19 lands

4 Delver of secrets
3 Deathrite shaman
4 Tarmogoyfs
2 Tombstalker

4 Abrupt decay
1 Dismember
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle

4 Hymn to tourach
3 Ponder

I think stifle is still quite an awesome card to have in today's metagame. Miracles, deed, stoneforge mystic triggers are all obstacles in our way in which a timely stifle can take care of. Even stifling a fetch isn't that bad, as combined with wasteland, it can create a huge tempo advantage.

[Amazing Larry]

I just really have not been liking Tombstalker lately, with all the yard hate going on he can be a pain to cast. Maindeck RIP from Miracles can make him impossible to cast. Instead I've been rolling with Bob. This is the list I'm testing:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
16 Creatures

4 Brainstorm
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Darkblast
25 Spells

3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
19 Lands

SB
3 Engineered Plague
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Dismember
2 Submerge
2 Spell Pierce
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sylvan Library
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Darkblast

I feel like the SB needs work, I don't like Dismember with Bob, but often enough Dismember only comes in against aggro decks, where Bob can be sided out if needed. I still might go with Disfigure.

[KobeBryan]

I just really have not been liking Tombstalker lately, with all the yard hate going on he can be a pain to cast. Maindeck RIP from Miracles can make him impossible to cast. Instead I've been rolling with Bob. This is the list I'm testing:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
16 Creatures

4 Brainstorm
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Darkblast
25 Spells

3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
19 Lands

SB
3 Engineered Plague
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Dismember
2 Submerge
2 Spell Pierce
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sylvan Library
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Darkblast

I feel like the SB needs work, I don't like Dismember with Bob, but often enough Dismember only comes in against aggro decks, where Bob can be sided out if needed. I still might go with Disfigure.

dark confidant with 4 fow, then 2 dismember 2 submerges.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Part Two: Daily Results

12/25: 2-0 Jund; 0-2 ANT (god hands); 2-1 ANT; 2-0 Goblins (mono Red); 2-0 Show and Tell

Pretty sure I was the ANT guy you played on Christmas day with the "god hands." :) We played two rounds, each of us winning one like you stated.

[wcm8]

Pretty sure I was the ANT guy you played on Christmas day with the "god hands." :) We played two rounds, each of us winning one like you stated.

One of my most formidable opponents then! Usually storm is such a pushover, Hymn hymn I win sort of battles.

[Spigore]

Hi all,

A few pages back, the question to stifle or not to stifle was asked.

How do you guys think of the little instant in the current 60?
I don't see anyone running this card anymore, though this is your typical tempo tool.
I can see reasons to run Stifle, but cutting 3 Deathrite Shaman and the fifth removal (Snuff Out / Dismember) just seems wrong.

As RUG Delver is a true tempo deck, I see BUG Delver as a deck which is not that much in a hurry.
Then again, Stifle does net you fetchlands, which is ofcourse very neat. It makes your Daze stronger and combined with Wasteland and Hymn it can totally screw the opponent.

Imho, running 3 Deathrite Shaman and 1 Snuff Out (over 4 Stifle) is the way to go.

(Talking about the most common list which everybody is using atm http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9789&iddeck=71471)

[wcm8]

The current approach to playing Team America is that it taps out on its own turns, and only utilizes 'free' counterspells on its opponent's turn.

Obviously as the game progresses, you'll be doing things like EOT Brainstorm, activating Shaman, or throwing Abrupt Decays around. But generally speaking, in the early game as you are developing your board, Stifle does not fit into the plan. You don't want to have to choose between dropping a turn one threat and holding mana up for Stifle. Its use as Wasteland protection is also less needed now that Shaman is in the mix.

Stifle is one of those high-risk, high-reward cards that is now mostly overshadowed by alternative options in BUG. Even RUG at times will drop the card for additional counter spells. If you were to play it, I would definitely consider playing Nimble Mongoose and dropping some of the midrange options from the build and focus on early-game tempo.

[the ploeg]

i have been experimenting but i was thinking of dropping 1 tomb stalker and the dismember for 2 JTMS using the list from scg. Any thoughts or is main board jace not what i want.

[Patrunkenphat7]

This deck is terrible against Swords to Plowshares + Snapcaster, so yes, I think dropping a Stalker for Jace seems like a good idea to make that matchup better. This deck is strong but lacks the tempo card that gave UWx decks nightmares: the goose. Tombstalker is such a silly card in a format with UWx decks, but it is awesome against RUG Tempo. I used to play it, but it's not a card I will ever play against vs a format where one of the most-played decks plays Swords to Plowshares, Snapcasters, and Jaces. Some people are starting to grumble about Goyf being unimpressive, but Tombstalker has the same issues as Goyf x 10. If you are running Deathrite Shaman in a BUG deck (which you should...), you should also be doing one of the most broken "fair deck" plays in Legacy: playing a turn 3 Jace.

[phazonmutant]

One of my most formidable opponents then! Usually storm is such a pushover, Hymn hymn I win sort of battles.

Thems fightin' words! I've been testing the TES v. BUG Delver matchup a ton for Denver and I'm like 9-3 in games pre and post. TES topdecks better than BUG in the discard battle (8 tutors, Ad Naus are "oops, I win"), you only play like 6 pieces of countermagic (Daze is a joke), and TES can just win before Hymn comes down.

So are your results mostly against ANT and/or High Tide? I could see Hymn being much better against them.

[Plague Sliver]

4x Sinkholes in the board...

DELICIOUS!

[wcm8]

Congrats Dan on the top 8 GP Denver finish! I like the 'secret' sideboard tech of 4 Sinkhole.

I also played the deck yesterday at the SCG Open, but a string of bad matchups and bad luck left me with a miserable 2-4 finish.
1-2 vs. Manaless Dredge
1-2 vs. the Mirror (literally only about 7 cards difference between our 75, mostly in the sideboard. Got out-Goyf'ed in game 3.)
2-0 vs. Goblins
2-1 vs. Show and Tell
1-2 vs. GBW Midrange (Lingering Souls, Dark Confidant, Liliana, Stoneforge Mystic)
1-2 vs. Belcher (in the games I lost, I had the wrong answer to the combo -- Force of Will vs. Empty the Warrens, and Engineered Explosives vs. Charbelcher. Mulling to 5 in game 3 didn't help either. Fuck this deck's existence. I prefer games that aren't based around shuffling. Playing against this deck has never been fun for me, even in the games I win. I probably would have not dropped and played a few more rounds if the loss were to just about any other deck. /rant)

Going forward, I'm wary to even play Team America. It seems like the format is shifting towards midrange decks, where 1-for-1'ing with Abrupt Decay is mediocre at best. Once combo comes back into full force to make Bloodbraid Elf look silly, we can go back to playing Daze and Delver's. Until then, I'd probably lay low on tempo.

[GtF]

Yeah, congrats Dan. I request a tournament report or at least a format as you see it overview. I am especially curious about the sinkholes in the board.

[nitewolf9]

I'll try to write a report up when I get a chance. I will say this deck is very well positioned right now, more so than the "grindyer" card advantage lists as tempo is so important in many matchups. Submerge is probably going back into my sideboard, even though I definitely think Jund is beatable with this deck. It is probably positive with the right board as brainstorm and ponder are ridiculous.

[Adryan]

Because of the rising popularity of Jund, i'm thinking of adding Submerges to the Sideboard. I want to add 2-4 but i have no idea what to cut:




Team America

Creatures (14)

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker
Lands (20)

2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
Spells (26)

1 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Snuff Out
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder

Sideboard

1 Extractions
1 Krosans grip
1 Disfigure
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Spell Pierce
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 maelstrom Pulse
3 thoughtseize



Maybe pulse and the Disfigure... Any ideas?

[lordofthepit]

Hey Dan, congratulations on your top 8.

Looking forward to your report. Do you think you can include some stuff about why you included sideboard Sinkholes, where you boarded them in, and how well they performed? Thanks!

[Richard Cheese]

Can we stop hating on Tombstalker now?

[Adryan]

Can we stop hating on Tombstalker now?

I love Tombstalker <3 i'm really sad that i'm playing only 2 tombstalkers in my list. Because of the fourth Deathrite Shaman. The Shaman is just too good. Today i playtested against Combo Elves. And Deathrite Shaman enabled turn 2 Thougtseize followed by a Hymn.

I have been thinking about putting 1 Tombstalker into the sideboard?

1 Tombstalker
1 Krosans grip
1 Disfigure
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Spell Pierce
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 maelstrom Pulse
3 thoughtseize

Any ideas?

[Maximus]

I have been thinking about putting 1 Tombstalker into the sideboard?

Any ideas?

Usually with this deck, your mana, threat base, and draw are static. Instead, you board to make your disruption better. It's perfectly acceptable to put 15 disruption/answer spells in your sideboard, usually with some mix of removal, graveyard hate, or other utility like Loam or Jitte. If you want to increase your threat base, something like Scavenging Ooze might be alright. I don't think the deck needs it right now though, and you could probably drop the Cliques too for the same reason.

[karaxu]

1-2 vs. Belcher (in the games I lost, I had the wrong answer to the combo -- Force of Will vs. Empty the Warrens


You could have avoided having the wrong answer, by countering the spell that would give them their fourth mana (or 3rd mana if you are suspecting a spirit guide, but this is less likely).

At that point it doesn't matter if they have empty the warrens as you have delayed them for at least 2 or 3 turns that should be enough for you to be ahead.

[bruizar]

I love Tombstalker <3 i'm really sad that i'm playing only 2 tombstalkers in my list. Because of the fourth Deathrite Shaman. The Shaman is just too good. Today i playtested against Combo Elves. And Deathrite Shaman enabled turn 2 Thougtseize followed by a hymn

Wouldnt you rather open with hymn and then thoughtseize if you know you are up against elves? If you randomly hit the card u wanted to thoughtseize, you get to thoughtseize their second best card as well.

I'd open with seize if i knew i was playing against blue though.

[wcm8]

You could have avoided having the wrong answer, by countering the spell that would give them their fourth mana (or 3rd mana if you are suspecting a spirit guide, but this is less likely).

At that point it doesn't matter if they have empty the warrens as you have delayed them for at least 2 or 3 turns that should be enough for you to be ahead.

I'll admit to not having tested against this matchup a ton, but if I recall correctly nothing would have mattered. Most of the mana was generated by Lotus Petals, Spirit Guides, and multiple ritual effects, meaning he was hitting 4 mana regardless of what I countered. I also think he had a Pyroblast in game 3 besides.

[JMLL]

Hey Dan, congratulations on your top 8.

Looking forward to your report. Do you think you can include some stuff about why you included sideboard Sinkholes, where you boarded them in, and how well they performed? Thanks!

Grats for your success, Dan.

Sum me in that petition for this explanation. I REALLY want to play those Beta sinkholes but I son't know why I should use them (besides the fact that they look cool :D)

[wcm8]

I'd love to hear Dan's thoughts on the matter, but Sinkhole's inclusion seems so obvious. Signorigni, with a Why-Didn't-I-Think-of-It-Before? look, the look that everyone's dad puts on when he's trying to pick out shoes and clothes for their kid, even though they have thought of this before, from the beginning, in fact, they just wanted to draw out the afternoon with needless driving around and tryings-on because they don't know what else to do with their kids, well, Signorigni put on that kind of a look and added 4 Sinkhole to his sideboard.

He stood in front of the Grand Prix like some freaking Amadeus. He no doubt imagined his opponents as his orchestra. And Signorigni was flabbergasted at how good of a choice he made. He whispered like a thespian in a particularly juicy role.

'Sinkhole, targeting your Island.'