[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

[GtF]

Thanks for the responses. The games it did shine most were against reanimator and main deck Grave hate slash accel is ace. I know I've envied hierarch many times but she wasn't powerful enough to make the cut (and not blk). Maybe I will bump up to 4 for awhile to see for myself once the cards arrive. Say this makes me feel more inclined to run bombs like hymn, liliana and maybe even phyrexian arena over library as 1-ofs. Do you guys find bomby cards more doable now and how about the 4th stalker?

Yeah I was always on the fence about whether to run hymn vs. thoughtseize due to the mana difference, but with Deathrite in the deck now, Hymn is definitely the right card to run. I'm also running a 1 of Liliana and it's been very good, Deathrite makes this more possible as well. I still think I'd run Sylvan library over Phyrexian Arena though just because I think it's arguably a better card in addition to being a mana cheaper.

[Tombstalker]

Got some pickup games in with a full set of shamans and wow... they make all our cards better, theirs worse and then double as a threat! Goyf might just be the worst creature in the deck. I was on the tap out for bombs plan before and now it's even better haha.

[ryscott85]

Just a quick question for everyone on this deck. It looks like a blast to play however; I was just wondering what the advantages of playing a deck like BUG Delver are over Rug delver,(If any) in a competitive environment. I know many of the cards are similar, however; it just seems to me that the burn gives more reach. Are you just trading bolts, spell pierces, and mongoose for abrupt decay, deathrite shaman, and thoughtseize? Thanks!

[metronome2charisma]

so i played a 39 person mox tourney in somerville today going 3-3 .i had good breakers and could have 4-2ed to top 8 but didn't so heres what i played and a short report.

4 delver
4 deathrite
4 goof
2 tomb stalker
14

4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 force
3 daze
4 stifle
3 hymn
2 abrupt decay
1 maelstrom pulse
2 dismember
27

3 sea
3 bayou
1 trop
4 wasteland
4 verdant catacombs
4 misty
19

s.b.
1 golgari charm
2 surgical extraction
1 liliana
1 scavenging ooze
1 spell pierce
2 fluster storm
2 winter orb
2 engineered plague
1 clique
1 abrupt decay
1 sylvan

so....
round 1
t.e.s. (0-1)
i lost the role and and had a force but he still went off with a silence turn two
game two was only 3 turns and he wins at 4 life .
round 2 (1-1)
t.e.s.
was able to use daze and hymn and two delvers to win
game two he fizzles and pretty much kills himself after a mull to 5
round 3 (2-1)
mono blue enter the infinite( it has a name but it escapes me)
game one he mulls to five and plays one land i play delver into goyf into hymn and and that did it
game two he mulls to 4 i play delver in to hymn into lilliana ,activate liliana 3 times he ponders and plays show and tell into enter the infinite and draws his whole deck and we dual till i'm dead
game three involves an opener of 2 delvers 2 ponders, daze, force, misty .i snap keep .play a delver and pass. he plays a ponder of an island and passes. another delver ponder finds a clique and a third land and the next turn (his draw phase) i let him keep them and he can't win before he dies to the beats
round 4 (3-1)
scapeshift nic fit.
delver and goyf get there after a stifled pernicious deed
game 2 he kills me with a primeval titan
game three me beating with an unflipped delver does some work on his lie total then lilly empties his hand after a hymn but he top decks a scapeshift and stfle the valakut triggers and he cant top deck mountains fast enough to race my tombstalker
round 5 (3-2)
manaless dredge
not much of a game..i knew this going in as we're both from the same store.
game two i play deathrite he plays nothing and discards phantasmagorian and discards his hand i play another deathrite and get rid of his grave troll andpashe dredges someting else and a bunch of other stupid crap and eventually is able to dread return for the win after he cabal therapys my force of wills...
round 6 (3-3)
esper stoneblade
game one batterskull and a flash backed lingering souls gets there..
game 2 . 2 tomb stalkers beat him down
game three a Geist of st.traft with a batter skull get through my 4/5 goyf and then my tomb stalker then its over....so.

over all my play was ok i would have made a couple different plays but i was happy. the deck feels really strong. i cant decide if i like hymn better or spell pierce and gitaxian probe golgari charm is fun but i didn't use it much winter orb is awesome in the rite matchup and keeps daze live wayyyy later in the game. . goyf felt like the weak link alot but it was still golf.. well there you have it.stuff.

[Tombstalker]

ryscott85Just a quick question for everyone on this deck. It looks like a blast to play however; I was just wondering what the advantages of playing a deck like BUG Delver are over Rug delver,(If any) in a competitive environment. I know many of the cards are similar, however; it just seems to me that the burn gives more reach. Are you just trading bolts, spell pierces, and mongoose for abrupt decay, deathrite shaman, and thoughtseize? Thanks!
Don't forget tombstalker! I'm returning after a long hiatus so perhaps things have changed although these decks are very cyclical with just a few new additions.
Anyway playing with both in the past I feel the strengths of TA is/was its more aggressive 'tap out' approach with hand disruption hard removal flying demons and now DRS which it seems RUG will be looking to include like every other deck.. Pierce isn't lost just put to the board and I'm actually toying with geese in the board too so it's basically the burn + red SB and ultra low curve you trade.

Personally after switching to RUG for awhile I found that RUG ran super smooth, smoother than TA, but it lacked the sheer power of TA and RUG stalled to creature strategies that TA doesn't sweat. I prefer TA although RUG is a great deck too. Still feeling out the latest changes to the format though so take it for what it's worth.

[Zand]

Prize split the finals of a Black Lotus tournament with this deck today, it's still good! Tombstalker and Hymns were outstanding all day.

[gwarfreak]

My current list is:
20 LANDS
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Bayou

14 CREATURES
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Vendilion Clique

24 INSTANTS and SORCERIES
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
3 Thoughtseize
3 Daze
2 Ponder
2 Gitaxian Probe (replacing the 2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor in Timur Babakol's list)

SIDEBOARD
2 Snuff Out
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Deathmark
1 Infest
1 Life from the Loam
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Golgari Charm

I love everything about it, except the stifles. The stifles always seem to be in my hand being mostly useless toward the end of the game. The land count makes enemy stifles and wastelands recoverable. It also allows me to use drt and maintain pressure more effectively. The cliques go over the top of ground wars and act as a duress when needed. I have reach with drs and clique. Probe is incredible giving me the ability to understand was is important over the next few turns. I have repeatedly beat the more greedy RBUG version with a single wasteland and this deck does not have that same vulnerability. Abrupt Decay is always great and I do not miss the counterable and limited lightning bolt. The SB is prolly awful but I do not understand the format well enough to fix it. I have searched the last dozen pages or so for non-stifle versions and I cannot seem to find one. Drew Levin advocated cutting them (http://www.starcitygames.com/article...er-Primer.html) but that is a year old article. I know if you cut the stifles, they end up with more land drops and thus your dazes and wastelands are much less powerful but I rarely seem to have the time/ ability to stifle because I have to press the attack. Is it a mostly settled question? Sinkhole seems too bulky but is it an option? What would I trade them for? More probe, daze, probe, thoughtsieze?

[BlackStarDeceiver]

More probe, daze, probe, thoughtsieze?

-4 Stifle
+1 Ponder
+2 Spell Pierce
+1 Dismeber

alternatively 1 Sylvan in place of the Ponder.

-4 Stifle
+3 Hymn to Tourach
+1 Dismember

I do like the first setup more, Sylvan is always awesome and Spell Pierce is pretty good in an open field, though i can see it being additional discard, a Snapcaster, more removal or anything else.

[apistat_commander]

I love everything about it, except the stifles. The stifles always seem to be in my hand being mostly useless toward the end of the game. The land count makes enemy stifles and wastelands recoverable. It also allows me to use drt and maintain pressure more effectively. The cliques go over the top of ground wars and act as a duress when needed. I have reach with drs and clique. Probe is incredible giving me the ability to understand was is important over the next few turns. I have repeatedly beat the more greedy RBUG version with a single wasteland and this deck does not have that same vulnerability. Abrupt Decay is always great and I do not miss the counterable and limited lightning bolt. The SB is prolly awful but I do not understand the format well enough to fix it. I have searched the last dozen pages or so for non-stifle versions and I cannot seem to find one. Drew Levin advocated cutting them (http://www.starcitygames.com/article...er-Primer.html) but that is a year old article. I know if you cut the stifles, they end up with more land drops and thus your dazes and wastelands are much less powerful but I rarely seem to have the time/ ability to stifle because I have to press the attack. Is it a mostly settled question? Sinkhole seems too bulky but is it an option? What would I trade them for? More probe, daze, probe, thoughtsieze?

The TA list that Daniel Signorini developed runs Hymn in place of Stifle. This puts you into a position of tapping out more often, but you have a spell that trades 2 for 1 which is pretty rare for Tempo. Instead of using Thoughtseize to pick apart their hand you just blow it to pieces. Stifle doesn't fit as well into that version because you are tapping out more often and relying on Daze/FoW/Decay to handle everything. In the end, I think it comes down to your local meta. If you see more combo and control targeted discard and Stifle become better. If you see more aggro and mid-range, Hymn is better.

Also if you already have Thoughtseize and Clique, do you really need Gitaxian Probe? I would run 4 Ponder, because you want to see it every game. Also +1 on the suggestion of adding Dismember.

[gwarfreak]

Also if you already have Thoughtseize and Clique, do you really need Gitaxian Probe? I would run 4 Ponder, because you want to see it every game. Also +1 on the suggestion of adding Dismember.

Clique is castable well into the game (interesting format) where such an effect is significantly diminished in power. Most significantly it can tell you the matchup and how the first few turns are going to unfold.

Thank you for the advice BTW, I saved both as decklists so hopefully I will get a feel for the new lineups.

I hate to phrase it this way, but what are the point of the Lilianas? The only deck that we can bully around, card advantage wise, seems to be RUG. Charms seem much better in that matchup.

[Tombstalker]

Ive been a fan of the 'tapout' method since it was innovated and its still very powerful but recently with the printing of DRS ive done a rethink. Stifle is a very powerful card and its value is directly effected by the curve of the deck and especially the CC of your threats among other things (like how many sorcerys vs instants etc).

Ive been brewing and testing what I consider to be the new face of TA, although many will say it is grixis but I feel it is still TA at heart. Anyway heres what ive been using and its been insane so far, ive been calling it the anti thresh:

4 delver of secrets
4 deathrite shaman
3 tombstalker

4 force of will
4 daze
3 stifle

4 bolt
2 decay

2 liliana

4 brainstorm
4 ponder
2 thought scour (possibly flex spots)

2 misty rainforest
4 verdant catacombs
2 bloodstained mire
4 underground sea
4 wasteland
2 badlands
1 volcanic island
1 tropical island

SB
1 fire covenant
2 perish
2 dread of night
2 submerge
2 mongoose
1 clique
2 REB
2 gilded drake
1 reanimate

Ive ditched goyf dont miss him. The deck packs 11 evasive threats and nearly identical curve to RUG with bigger bombs.

Heres a few noteworthy things/synergies about the deck that may or may not be apparent at first glance:

-manabase is just as sturdy as traditional TA often sturdier since it only wants green for decay and all threats/counters/cantrips are U/B.

-it focuses on bettering its main wincons and beating RUG and green based aggro decks. 11 threats makes delver flips what they should be and all evasive creature suite avoids ground stalls common to goyf and RUG in general. This deck gives RUG fits btw by basically playing the same game but in my opinion stronger.

-bolts + stalkers is cock diesel as fuck. nuff said.

-no green means tombstalker is immune to submerge. Meanwhile perish is mostly a 1 sided wrath.

-speaking of perish, post board the deck brings in 3 one sided wraths plus 2 free removal against every relevant deck packing green.

-thought scour is a blue dark ritual that cantrips while feeding 3 stalkers pitching to force and is an offensive weapon at times. 1 may be a flex spot not sure yet.

-stifle over discard because stifle is currently more powerful and flexible vs 3-4 discard, plus its blue and just as importantly instant speed. This is not the primary plan like RUG but allows for 11 aggressive 1 drops in the opener and protects stalker vs terminus etc. Basically sheer versatility and offensive potential vs more clunky topdeck of late discards.

-geese and clique in the board because most times I want stalkers except against control.

-no grave hate other than inherent ability main and a few functional overlap cards is the main downside. My main lament is actually that I really want library but doing so weakens decays by opening up the manabase to wasteland early.

So thoughts? Input?

[apple713]

Ive been a fan of the 'tapout' method since it was innovated and its still very powerful but recently with the printing of DRS ive done a rethink. Stifle is a very powerful card and its value is directly effected by the curve of the deck and especially the CC of your threats among other things (like how many sorcerys vs instants etc).

Ive been brewing and testing what I consider to be the new face of TA, although many will say it is grixis but I feel it is still TA at heart. Anyway heres what ive been using and its been insane so far, ive been calling it the anti thresh:

4 delver of secrets
4 deathrite shaman
3 tombstalker

4 force of will
4 daze
3 stifle

4 bolt
2 decay

2 liliana

4 brainstorm
4 ponder
2 thought scour (possibly flex spots)

2 misty rainforest
4 verdant catacombs
2 bloodstained mire
4 underground sea
4 wasteland
2 badlands
1 volcanic island
1 tropical island

SB
1 fire covenant
2 perish
2 dread of night
2 submerge
2 mongoose
1 clique
2 REB
2 gilded drake
1 reanimate

Ive ditched goyf dont miss him. The deck packs 11 evasive threats and nearly identical curve to RUG with bigger bombs.

Heres a few noteworthy things/synergies about the deck that may or may not be apparent at first glance:

-manabase is just as sturdy as traditional TA often sturdier since it only wants green for decay and all threats/counters/cantrips are U/B.

-it focuses on bettering its main wincons and beating RUG and green based aggro decks. 11 threats makes delver flips what they should be and all evasive creature suite avoids ground stalls common to goyf and RUG in general. This deck gives RUG fits btw by basically playing the same game but in my opinion stronger.

-bolts + stalkers is cock diesel as fuck. nuff said.

-no green means tombstalker is immune to submerge. Meanwhile perish is mostly a 1 sided wrath.

-speaking of perish, post board the deck brings in 3 one sided wraths plus 2 free removal against every relevant deck packing green.

-thought scour is a blue dark ritual that cantrips while feeding 3 stalkers pitching to force and is an offensive weapon at times. 1 may be a flex spot not sure yet.

-stifle over discard because stifle is currently more powerful and flexible vs 3-4 discard, plus its blue and just as importantly instant speed. This is not the primary plan like RUG but allows for 11 aggressive 1 drops in the opener and protects stalker vs terminus etc. Basically sheer versatility and offensive potential vs more clunky topdeck of late discards.

-geese and clique in the board because most times I want stalkers except against control.

-no grave hate other than inherent ability main and a few functional overlap cards is the main downside. My main lament is actually that I really want library but doing so weakens decays by opening up the manabase to wasteland early.

So thoughts? Input?

Submerge is a sideboard card so really you only have to worry about it against blue matchups and in g2-3. if you wanted to run 1 forest type land it wouldnt kill you and you could choose not to fetch it g2-3.

Sylvan library is really that good. Unfortunatly Bob is awkward with tombstalker or I'd suggest that. You may even consider 1 SDT

Is bolt really necessary its all your splashing red for?

Generic lists have run sinkhole, hymn to tourach, snapcaster mage but It seems like you have already considered them.

Also, it may sound crazy but FOW might not be necessary. The awesomeness that is blue is that people automatically assume you have it and may holdoff casting something just because you are holding cards in your hand. You dont have to cast FOW for them to play around it. It's mainly card disadvantage anyways but if your meta is heavy combo i could see it being an auto include.

[Tombstalker]

Submerge is a sideboard card so really you only have to worry about it against blue matchups and in g2-3. if you wanted to run 1 forest type land it wouldnt kill you and you could choose not to fetch it g2-3.
This is true but 3-4 from the board are powerful enough to swing games alone so its worth designing against since its RUGs main out against resolved goyfs/stalkers.


Sylvan library is really that good. Unfortunatly Bob is awkward with tombstalker or I'd suggest that. You may even consider 1 SDT
Again I completely agree I absolutely adore library. Problem is not only that its green but I forgot to mention I also intentionally avoided cc2 cards to blank snare so this would be a huge bullseye for snare.


Is bolt really necessary its all your splashing red for?
Im not entirely sure and I dont think anyone else is either atm. Its very very good with this creature suite and solves TAs historical issues of 1st turn spot removal and plainswalkers. The trade off is really just 4 goyfs for 4 bolts + red sideboard options [for me I lose library as well] but yes in short I think its worth it.
Goyf is still amazing and if playing geese then hes still the best nilla beater but with black and stalker I think not. Not since shaman and decay.


Generic lists have run sinkhole, hymn to tourach, snapcaster mage but It seems like you have already considered them.
Ive ran all 3 in the past and the only one I really lament losing [at times] is hymn.. when its good that is. It might find its way in as a 2-of though since there are a few flex spots.


Also, it may sound crazy but FOW might not be necessary. The awesomeness that is blue is that people automatically assume you have it and may holdoff casting something just because you are holding cards in your hand. You dont have to cast FOW for them to play around it. It's mainly card disadvantage anyways but if your meta is heavy combo i could see it being an auto include. .
Once again I think you make a good observation and one that ive considered many times. The main factors I have with full set of FoW is that 1. it protects stalker and a safe stalker almost always = win; and 2. what do I replace it with? Pierce maybe flusterstorm? Snare isnt needed since we run decay and dont really fear cc2 spells as much as RUG does, at least in my experience with the decks although im a little behind atm since I returned to find DRS and decays innovated.

[CroSS.24]

This is a list I've been tinkering with for awhile now. I have had much success at local tournaments, haven't really had a chance to test at a big event yet.



4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Tombstalker
1 Vendillion Clique

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Stifle
3 Sinkhole

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta


I have had some very good success with this list.
I have been able to land screw agro loam and lands, which I am very proud of.
I have not encountered a "bad" matchup yet.

And no I have not killed myself with dark confidant yet. I have been very, very, very close to it, like when I played 3 dark confidants against high tide.

[apistat_commander]

I am not a huge fan of Sinkhole, Confidant, or splashing a 4th color. I think that you just have to find a hole in the metagame and abuse it. Basically, you have to have a pretty good reason to be running Delver outside of RUG.

Our strengths:
- We get to play Deathrite Shaman without our mana becoming awful
- We have access to actual removal spells pre- and post-board, meaning we have a fighting chance against fair creature decks
- 20 lands + 4 mana dudes means fewer hands that are constricted by mana.
- Tombstalker is awesome against tempo and other creature based strategies

Our weaknesses:
- We don't get to run Lightning Bolt. Basically all of our removal is a blank against most combo decks.
- Delver doesn't flip as reliably and we are just generally a worse Delver deck (higher curve, no direct damage)
- Tombstalker/DRS and Nimble Mongoose don't play nicely together meaning that we don't get a 1 mana shrouded 3/3 against control decks
- We have more intense mana requirements and a higher curve than RUG so we can get stuck with uncastable spells
- RUG gets to run ~4 extra counters

So we are stronger against creature based strategies while sacrificing some percentage against combo and control. I think the best approach to building the deck takes into account our strengths while trying to mitigate our weaknesses.

- I think this makes Stifle superior to Hymn at the moment. Hymn was really the card that turned the deck into tap out control. Stifle gives us an edge against greedy fair decks, ups the blue count, and shores up combo to a degree. It also means that we don't tap out as much which is relevant post-board when you want to bring in 1 mana counters.
- The 4 Delver/4 DRS/4 Goyf/2 Tombstalker set up seems like the best creature suite. Tombstalker may suck against combo, but I run a pair of Vendilion Cliques in the board so that I can swap them out against combo/decks with StP.
- I think 6 MD removal spells is probably the right number. I am trying 4 Decay/1 Dismember/1 Disfigure at the moment.

Anyway, this all leads me this list:

Land(20):
4x Polluted Delta
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
2x Tropical Island
4x Wasteland

Creatures(14):
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
2x Tombstalker

Instants(22):
4x Brainstorm
4x Stifle
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Abrupt Decay
1x Dismember
1x Disfigure

Sorceries(4):
4x Ponder

Sideboard:
3 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Deathmark
2 Engineered Plague
1 Infest
1 Krosan Grip

[kingsey]

Just took first at a local with my list.

Stifle was huge all night. I know this deck doesn't like to tap out, but being able to hymn on turn two and keep DRS up for either a quick 2 dmg EOT or to stifle is sweet.

[Griselpuff]

Hymn is just awesome right now. Stifle is good, but with so many DRS decks, it has lost its luster. Here's a list the list that I've been playtesting:

http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/55514

SB could use some work, but the MD is pretty great

[Barbed Blightning]

Hymn is just awesome right now. Stifle is good, but with so many DRS decks, it has lost its luster.

I think you got your cards mixed up there, chief; stifle is spectacular because of the DRS decks

[Griselpuff]

You stifle their land, they get to drs for mana regardless...

[mosaic]

You stifle their land, they get to drs for mana regardless...

Well I believe that BB meant something different rather then stifle land while opponent has DRS in play... and even DRS's abilities could be valid targets and game turning.

Though I don't like stifle MD with hymn much, even that from time to time I find myself in situation of having DRS and two lands with hymn in hand on my second turn, where stifle would be nice. For now I have it in side instead of sinkholes, as I am convinced that stifle is more flexible then sinkhole.

[wcm8]

After playing around with RUG and BURG for awhile, I've actually returned to TA. It actually seems to be performing better than the others right now.

I expect Theros to bring about some changes to the format, but here's what I've been playing as of late:

19 lands (7 fetch, 4/2/2 sea/trop/bayou, 4 waste)
1 Sylvan Library
4 DRS
4 Delver
4 Goyf
2 Stalker
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Daze
4 FoW
4 Spell Pierce
4 Ponder
4 Bstorm
4 Decay

I cut Hymn for Spell Pierce, as it seems somewhat better at dealing with the cards this deck actually loses to. I was able to go down to 19 lands since this means the curve is slightly lower.

Explosives is a great removal option for the time being. I have tested Liliana, Dismember, and Disfigure in that slot, but I found the versatility and occasional 2-for-1 from Explosives to be really great as of late.

For the sideboard, I'm just rolling with a Nassif-style singleton board with the following cards:
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Life from the Loam
1 Winter Orb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Darkblast
1 Disfigure
1 Golgari Charm
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Plague
1 Compost

[kingsey]

wcm8,

Good to see you playing TA. How has tombstalker been for you? I've been running into a ton of white decks locally so that = stp in bunches so I'm debating switching to clique.

I give credit for taking out hymn but IMO that card is the reason we play these color combination.

I've always run 19 lands and I totally think its the way to go.

[Einherjer]

I really don't understand this move. What is the upside of playing BUG instead of RUG if you cut Hymns for more reactive Countermagic. RUG Delver is simply the stronger Tempodeck in regards of creating tempo. (aka no tap-out-mechanic) I just don't see any reason to play BUG Threshold, your build looks like you are close to adding Stifles, finalizing the idea of an inferior RUG.
Cutting Hymn is totally fine, don't get me wrong - but it should be replaced by something that fits the gameplan of TA --> Thoughtseize or something like this.
In addition to this, EE seems like a totally wrong removal for this kind of deck. You probably don't care about 1-2ing the opponent. You want to tempo them out, kill them before they can build up their shit. So you need cheap/free removal --> Dismember/Snuff Out.

I would like to hear your opinion on this questions, plus I am willing to extend my critique, if need be.

Greetings

[wcm8]

I could see Thoughtseize replacing Spell Pierce, as either card is good at dealing with control, combo, and tempo strategies. In particular, I wanted something to help out against combo that didn't require tapping out on turn 2, and even then might not necessarily hit anything relevant. Spell Pierce is nice because it's something you can Brainstorm into in response to a game ending spell, and obviously it deals with topdecks in a way that discard can't. TA also has a dangerously low Blue count to support FoW, so additional blue spells are always welcome. Finally, this also freed up some slots in the sideboard to better address control and aggro.

Explosives has been amazing against Elves and other smaller swarm decks I've been facing lately. It's a bit like RUG's Forked Bolt in this regard, except it is also versatile elsewhere. Also grows Goyf. I'm still waiting for the day that a Black StP variant gets printed; until then we have to make do with less-than-ideal options.

I disagree with you saying that cutting Hymn makes TA a 'worse version of RUG'. We are still playing the full playsets of Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay, as well as Tombstalker which are actually components that help push TA over-the-top against RUG. Additionally, the black sideboard options are arguably just as valid as RUG's red options.

I think people are bit too eager to throw around this concept of 'tempo'. Tempo matters in the first several turns, but I'm sure you're aware that a lot of those concepts often go out the window beyond turns 4-5+, i.e. the majority of games. This is where TA often has more staying power than RUG thanks to hard removal in Abrupt Decay.

[CroSS.24]

The black swords to plowshares variant is ghastly demise
And the best card in the whole 75 of rug delver is pyroblast
I have played rug delver and I have no intention of building it again, because the deck lack one major component. Actual creature removal.

[Einherjer]

I am no tempo expert, but I tend to playtest against one, and this discusions have shaped my view of this point. Let me try to elaborate.

RUG Delver is the best tempodeck. Yes, tempo is a fishy term and there hasn't really been an explanation that everyone agrees upon. It could be described as mana-advantage, as disability to play cards from hand (creating dead cards) or as the ability to counter every spell that matters until they are dead. Every single of these 3 "explanations" has its flaws in real magic and is therefore incorrect. It most likely is a combination of those 3 + 3 more I did not think of.
So, why do I think that RUG Delver is the best Delverdeck? The deck costs 0 or 1, only Tarmogoyf standing out of this concept. Most of this deck are instants. This means that this deck is capable of passing the turn with just one X-Island and still threaten everything, landdestructio, countermagic, removalspells, cantrips or whatever. But I am sure you know of RUGs strengths. Let's compare this to TA, shall we?
TA on the other hand tends to tap out, turn after turn, utilizing free spells to still keep up the tempo (argh, I did it again). We all know this concept. Why does this make TA a worse tempodeck? Well, probably I shouldn't say worse, I should've said different?! In any way, BUG is not capable of operating on as few lands as RUG is, we our spells tend to cost more and are more socery-orientated. Hence we have the more powerful spells, by their own. Hymn is way more powerful than any of RUGs cards. But, and this is the point I wanna make - it is really hard to play a correct and strong Hymn. RUG on the other hand can just pass with Volcanic and judge which spell they wanna use. When you waste your 1st/2nd Mainphase deploying one of your tapout-threats and then understand that it's been the wrong one - what'cha gonna do? But this is not the only reason.
Canadian Threshold's answers and spells in general are worse, but more flexible and can be used on a wider spectrum, plus they are generally cheaper. Yes, Lightning Bolt is a worse removalspell than Abrupt Decay is, but Lightning Bolt can kill planeswalking monstrosities and finish of unworthy opponents. Decay cannot do that. Yes, Spell Pierce is probably worse against Combo than Hymn is. But a Hymn can whiff or be irrelevant due to the lategame-point of the match, Spell Pierce on the other hand can still handle a T6 drawn Jace or something (assumed he didn't draw a land evey turn). In addition to this it can handle instant-speed removal or the right parts of the combo.
You see where I am getting to? BUG has the better cards, but only situational. It's RUG big strength to operate on as few sources as possible with the best spectrum of differently useable spells. Why does adding Spell Pierce to BUG not solve the problem? Because BUGs CC1-Tempogainer - Shaman is a lightning rod, whereas RUGs is easier castable, instant speed and has broad applications throughout the Legacy metagame. We still have this clunkey Decay and Engineered Explosives is still a wrong/bad card for the Mainboard.

CroSS.24 - It's very hard to take you serious on any of your two statements. I'll care to respond if you put a little more intent and content in your posts, and probably stop claiming obviously wrong stuff --> Just like Pyroblast being RUGs best card - hillarious.


Greetings

[catmint]

On Thoughtseize/Hymn/Pierce:

I've played TA with Thoughtseize in a local GP trial (losing the final) in Straßbourg winning my first trial and then in the GP facing tons of jund/shardles for a 3:3 on day 1. :cry: Not forcing yourself to keep mana open is pretty key imo. You want to deathrite into threats/discard/wasteland with daze open. This is how you win matches. Deathrite into stuff with pierce open might be good, but is more situational that Thoughtseize even though it might be a better tempo play (if it works). If they don't play into it it might hurt your tempo by not using your mana. That it stops topdecks is true, but you cannot pay 2 to stop thoguthseize so I would count that even. My main argument is that thoughtseize is way better at stopping swords, decay and dismember. Pierce is usually useless against removal given a competent opponent.

Why play Hymn over Thoughtseize? I've never understood why everybody did that. I don't care about what you do or how many cards you have if I can only stop you from winning before I do or stop you from stopping my attacking army. What I mean is that specific cards (swords, decay, batterskull, infernal tutor) are much more important than card advantage in general. Also playing multiple spells turn 2 is key and hymn often doesn't allow you to do so. I can see Hymn beeing better with a Sinkhole plan from the side though.

So comparing to candadian you don't win by disrupting the opponents mana very well and taxing while hitting with shroud/delver (which is a plan that also often works in the late game). You have a shorter window of getting ahead and win by accelerating faster into threats (multiple spells) that your opponent can't answer using your disruption SPECIFICALLY on what stops you. Hence Thoughtseize over Hymn 100% for me.

[Einherjer]

So we agreed upon the fact, that Spell Pierce does not fit TAs gameplan. Great.

Thoughtseize vs Hymn. I do not claim to have the correct answer nor can I offer hundreds of hours playing with this very deck. Even though I am no newcomer to this deck. Well, that's what I think:
Thoughtseize is, as you mentioned, an assured way to get rid of things, things you aimed on and things you care about. It's easier to cast and enables you to play more spells on T2. Thoughtseize is great at taking opposing T1-plays when being on the play and enables you to snap their T2-bomb when being on the draw. It has no real drawbacks concerning the choice of card, only nonland, which is set in stone for targeted Legacydiscard.
Hymn on the other hand is more unstable, costs more mana plus it puts an additional strain on the manabase for producing BB. Interestingly enough, Hymn offers blow-out-scenarios. Hymning 2 lands while Dazing their spell, followed by a Wasteland. Or taking their only buisness spells and leaving them with lands only. But, Hymn can whiff too, creating nothing but (mostly) virtual cardadvantage. It seems to be, that Hymn is a bit of high risk - high reward. Obviously Hymn is great in combinatin with Deathrite Shaman, but which card isn't? There are serveral more scenarios where I would like Hymn over Thoughtseize too, for example if the opponent has a redundant hand, meaning: Land, Land, Creature, Creatue - with all these creatures being probably the same strength. Toughtseize wouldn't be too good here, as it only 1-1s you, while costing Manainvestemt + your Mainphase. Hymn on the other hand can destroy this hand very easily, there is no really bad combination of cards Hymn could pick, as long as the opponent did not deploy serveral lands earlier.
I am still not sure about the fact, which Discardspell is the better one against Combo. Thoughtseize enables very quick interaction. Hymn on the other hand takes awhile but is mostly devastating against all those many-card-combos, be it Storm or Show and Tell. I did not test this intensively yet, but I think I may do that sometime soon.

Greetings

[wcm8]

A deck's 'gameplan' tends to only work in the abstract. I'm far more interested in results than I am in some sort of platonic ideal of 'tempo'.

Stifle has a been a card I've never been all that happy with, even when I am playing RUG. And this is coming from someone who earned a Pro Point with 4 copies of the card in my Grand Prix deck, so it's not like I haven't given the card plenty of testing time. Even without Stifle's inclusion, I still feel that Spell Pierce is sufficiently powerful and stops a lot of the problematic cards for TA. Thoughtseize would also be fine in its place -- I would need to do more testing between the two. I could also see a 2/2 split being a justifiable choice.

A big reason I like playing TA is because it beats on RUG pretty hard. RUG is also extremely popular in my local meta right now. Spell Pierce is pretty much a hard counter against every non-creature spell against that deck, and is much easier to actually resolve than Hymn (which would likely be getting sided out anyways). Explosives is also a powerful option for beating mongoose -- Decay and your bigger threats clear up the rest.

[Einherjer]

And my response is coming/came from someone who earned his Pro Point with 4 Sensei's Divining Top in his deck :D

Engineered Explosives is quite good vs Nimble Mongoose. But here are a few points that have to be considered.
EE is Sorcery Speed. It can be Stifled, it could be Decayed. It does not flip Delver.

If you plan on beating RUG on it's own I don't think that BUG Delver is your deck of choice. As told, I tested against a high-profile RUG-Player (11th at GP Strasbourg) and I can assure you, that this deck does not stump RUG. It has a reasonable MU due to Shaman, own Goyfs and Decay, but playing this deck because you wanna prey on RUG seems just wrong to me. I agree that I wouldn't play Hymn when i were about to prey on RUG, admittingly.

Greetings

[kingsey]

Took first at local. Taking down enough store credit to score a NM English moat!

Won against UWr miracles, Punishing Jund, Lost to Death and Taxs, and beat RUG delver. :smile:

Winter Orb is awesome

[Asthereal]

@Engineered Explosives: Have you tried Diabolic Edict in its place? Also pretty strong against RUG, does flip Delver, helps against SneakShow and in general clears up big guys pretty well. It's bad against Maverick (too many irrelevant small dudes) but in the right meta I feel it could work.

[Barbed Blightning]

@Engineered Explosives: Have you tried Diabolic Edict in its place? Also pretty strong against RUG, does flip Delver, helps against SneakShow and in general clears up big guys pretty well. It's bad against Maverick (too many irrelevant small dudes) but in the right meta I feel it could work.

Even against mav (who's playing it anyway right now?) It can hit early enough to be good.

It IS terrible vs gobs, though.

[Purgatory]

Took first at local. Taking down enough store credit to score a NM English moat!

Won against UWr miracles, Punishing Jund, Lost to Death and Taxs, and beat RUG delver. :smile:

Winter Orb is awesome

What did you bring in Winter Orb against? Miracles, obviously, but anything aside from that?

[kingsey]

I also brought it in vs Jund its been good to me.

I keep going back and forth between clique & tombstalker.

It's funny when I run clique I wish it was stalker and vice versa.


I know I'm solo on stifles main deck but between the sfm triggers, plainswalker triggers, grislebrand draw 7, blanking opponents wastelands, and the old fashion fetch lands I love it.

[Gunseng]

So I played this list last Saturday and did badly:
Land(20):
4x Polluted Delta
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
2x Tropical Island
4x Wasteland

Creatures(14):
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
2x Tombstalker

Instants(22):
4x Brainstorm
4x Stifle
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Abrupt Decay
1x Dismember
1x Disfigure

Sorceries(4):
4x Ponder

Sideboard:
3 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Deathmark
2 Engineered Plague
1 Infest
1 Krosan Grip

It was my first time playing Team America and I am not sure how to play this deck correctly. Is there any introduction available to this deck? The starting post of this thread is quite outdated.

[kingsey]

So I played this list last Saturday and did badly:
Land(20):
4x Polluted Delta
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
2x Tropical Island
4x Wasteland

Creatures(14):
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
2x Tombstalker

Instants(22):
4x Brainstorm
4x Stifle
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Abrupt Decay
1x Dismember
1x Disfigure

Sorceries(4):
4x Ponder

Sideboard:
3 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Deathmark
2 Engineered Plague
1 Infest
1 Krosan Grip

It was my first time playing Team America and I am not sure how to play this deck correctly. Is there any introduction available to this deck? The starting post of this thread is quite outdated.

I agree the primer is very outdated. You can check mtgsalvation but i'm unsure what you will find there. One thing I see you are missing is discard. Either Hymn to tourach or toughtseize is absolutely needed main deck. I would cut 1 tropical, the dismember and the disfigure and put 3 hymns in.

[Tombstalker]

It was my first time playing Team America and I am not sure how to play this deck correctly. Is there any introduction available to this deck? The starting post of this thread is quite outdated.
Can you elaborate on what you faced and what went wrong? How familiar are you with legacy format?

More information would help us to give you better insight. Also while TA is a different animal many of the basic principals of tempo or aggro control cross over from canadian thresh so I would also suggest delving into CT methodology for answers.

Lastly some of the card choices for these decks are 'core' concepts and dont really ever change, while others are more cyclical depending on your metagame. Hence why so many discussion revolve around stifle/pierce/hymn/thoughtseize etc.

[Gunseng]

OK, I will try to express my problems.

My match ups were Stacks (1:1), Miracle Control (1:2), Esper Blade (1:2) and Nic Fit (0:2). My impression was that TA is on a clock. If you do not manage to deal critical damage to an opponent early on, you will lose to a resolved bomb (e.g. Grave Titan, Jace + Counterbalance/Top, Liliana). I kept trading well with my opponents only to just lose in a later turn when I did not have the necessary answer. I feel that I have to be more aggressive but the deck does not have the power to be really fast. My main problem is that I do not know what hands to hold. I used to play Canadian some years ago and I was taught that you rarely mulligan, because you do not have any card draw. I played TA the same way and therefore held some slow hands with only filtering, counter magic and disruption, but no creatures. Is this the correct way to play? Also, I do not know how to sideboard with this deck.

The idea to add hymn is interesting, I will have to test this. However, I am unsure whether Stifle and Hymn work well together, as Stifle needs open mana and Hymn makes you tap out.

[Purgatory]

Those are some rough match-ups there. I haven't played against Stax in years, but at least on paper it seems difficult. Chalice on one really hurts our deck's consistency since it turns off the cantrips, Delver, Thoughtseize etc., but at least we have MD outs to it contrary to RUG who will likely just roll over if they don't have a counter. Miracles can be difficult if they get an early countertop lock or if you over-extend into a big Terminus, but the match-up is a lot more managable if you have Winter Orb in the sideboard. The same is more or less true for Esper Blade, but against them the elf becomes more important since otherwise they can just kill all of our dudes with Swords + Snapcaster Mage. Nic Fit is another tough match-up for all fair blue decks, but should also be winnable if you can hinder their mana development. Again, Winter Orb should be a good sideboard card.

[Tombstalker]

Gunseng
OK, I will try to express my problems.

My match ups were Stacks (1:1), Miracle Control (1:2), Esper Blade (1:2) and Nic Fit (0:2). My impression was that TA is on a clock. If you do not manage to deal critical damage to an opponent early on, you will lose to a resolved bomb (e.g. Grave Titan, Jace + Counterbalance/Top, Liliana). I kept trading well with my opponents only to just lose in a later turn when I did not have the necessary answer. I feel that I have to be more aggressive but the deck does not have the power to be really fast. My main problem is that I do not know what hands to hold. I used to play Canadian some years ago and I was taught that you rarely mulligan, because you do not have any card draw. I played TA the same way and therefore held some slow hands with only filtering, counter magic and disruption, but no creatures. Is this the correct way to play? Also, I do not know how to sideboard with this deck.

The idea to add hymn is interesting, I will have to test this. However, I am unsure whether Stifle and Hymn work well together, as Stifle needs open mana and Hymn makes you tap out.
Stifle and hymn aim to do the same thing, stunt mana development. Its arguable which is better, hymns potential is greater but its riskier while stifle is more difficult to use correctly. Against many of the current DTBs id say stifle is superior but here im not certain, maybe even consider thoughtseize in some number.

The decks you faced are not easy matches either way and each will crush TA if the game goes long so you are reduced to being the aggressor. I would look to land an evasive threat asap and ride it out while saving disruption and counters for their removal and card filtering, oh and manabase although this will be harder (hymn is probably better vs those decks packing basics), but forcing/dazing senseis top stifling explorer etc will go a long way.

Unfortunately most of those decks run StP (and terminus aaaand jace) which are horrible for stalker, one of our 'trump' cards. I would board stalkers out for cliques which are awesome against control. Also consider adding dread of night and engineered explosives to your board to handle tokens along with the single pulse.

On your board I dont know what you commonly face but I would look to replace these:
1 Flusterstorm
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1-2 deathmark
2 Engineered Plague
1 Infest
1 Krosan Grip?
with the above suggestions of DoN/EE plus some targeted discards, liliana(s), submerges and maybe more broad countermagic. Personally I really liked lilianas in the main and she does have really good synergy with discard effects. Also its probably down to preference but I prefer dismember over disfigure since they both answer T1 DRS and such but disfigure cant handle some of the things that can actually race your flyers.

Meanwhile abrupt decay answers many of the scarier cards like countertop and challice, as well as batterskull which doesnt fly so if they want to durdle with SFM let them then decay the token or stifle it.

Lastly dont be afraid to mull to an aggressive hand because hands with either no threat or too many threats usually end badly as you found.

Its been awhile since I sleeved up TA but last time I did I think I was on a mix of hymn and stifle with less creatures then the current norm.

Anyway hope that helped a little.

Edit- hell if this is what you expect to face commonly you might even consider a 3rd clique... their fantastic.

[twndomn]

I've never understood the logic of running infest to kill your own Delver and DRS.

Now many people are onto the Young Pyromancer bandwagon, Golgari Charm should be in every decklist, perhaps even Main Deck.

Which idiot would MD EE? Why would you intentionally create anti-synergy to reduce the chance of Delver flipping by wasting an instant/sorcery slot onto artifact?

The biggest advantage of BUG over RUG is obviously Abrupt Decay. It comes down to Abrupt Decay vs Lightning Bolt, pick your weapon of choice.

[Purgatory]

The biggest advantage of BUG over RUG is obviously Abrupt Decay. It comes down to Abrupt Decay vs Lightning Bolt, pick your weapon of choice.

I think this is over-simplifying it a lot. Another very important difference is Stifle vs. Thoughtseize/Hymn (that is, being reactive vs. being proactive).

Mongoose and Stalker are also very different threats who shine in very different match ups.

[Tombstalker]

I think this is over-simplifying it a lot. Another very important difference is Stifle vs. Thoughtseize/Hymn (that is, being reactive vs. being proactive).

Mongoose and Stalker are also very different threats who shine in very different match ups.
I agree with this. Also wcm8 is/was maindecking EE and while not usually advisable I can see certain instances where it is a consideration and I respect his ability and experience with this archtype. For the record my suggestion was for the SB just in case that was misconstrued.

On the topic of tombstalker for sec, the card is near the top of my alltime favs list but with the printing of DRS I honestly think maindecking vendilion cliques is just better. They come down earlier/as early, bring instant disruption to add to blacks discard and have evasion. Clique is on par with TS for ending the game since its earlier damage makes up for power 3 plus it takes your opponents answer. Dropping 1 goyf and 1 stalker for 2 cliques is very appealing, in fact a 3rd might not be a bad idea especially since TA has historically operated on a bare minimum blue count for FoW.

Bottom line TA will never be as efficient as RUG that only runs 3-5 CC2 spells so it may as well look to slightly higher cost higher value cards like hymn, decay, clique, liliana, library etc.

[twndomn]

Bottom line TA will never be as efficient as RUG that only runs 3-5 CC2 spells so it may as well look to slightly higher cost higher value cards like hymn, decay, clique, liliana, library etc.

If you follow that line of logic, you just need to take 1 more step: play strix and Shardless. Before you know it, you are not playing TA, you are playing Shardless Bug.

[kingsey]

I agree with this. Also wcm8 is/was maindecking EE and while not usually advisable I can see certain instances where it is a consideration and I respect his ability and experience with this archtype. For the record my suggestion was for the SB just in case that was misconstrued.

On the topic of tombstalker for sec, the card is near the top of my alltime favs list but with the printing of DRS I honestly think maindecking vendilion cliques is just better. They come down earlier/as early, bring instant disruption to add to blacks discard and have evasion. Clique is on par with TS for ending the game since its earlier damage makes up for power 3 plus it takes your opponents answer. Dropping 1 goyf and 1 stalker for 2 cliques is very appealing, in fact a 3rd might not be a bad idea especially since TA has historically operated on a bare minimum blue count for FoW.

Bottom line TA will never be as efficient as RUG that only runs 3-5 CC2 spells so it may as well look to slightly higher cost higher value cards like hymn, decay, clique, liliana, library etc.


I wouldn't totally count stalker out. He blows out RUG, and basically anything without Swords to Plowshare. He can be casted for 2 mana, cant be killed with EE, decay, or deed. He walks all over people. I also don't like to try and be as " Efficient " as RUG when our cards are stronger then theirs. They can't kill our goyfs and we decay theirs.

[Tombstalker]

If you follow that line of logic, you just need to take 1 more step: play strix and Shardless. Before you know it, you are not playing TA, you are playing Shardless Bug.
I think thats what many people did but its not my style.


I wouldn't totally count stalker out. He blows out RUG, and basically anything without Swords to Plowshare. He can be casted for 2 mana, cant be killed with EE, decay, or deed. He walks all over people. I also don't like to try and be as " Efficient " as RUG when our cards are stronger then theirs. They can't kill our goyfs and we decay theirs.
All great points and all reasons I love tombstalker and TA, well said.

[Enric]

Live Streaming of a Legacy Daily Event with Team America today at 19:30 CET / 10:30 PDT here:

http://es-es.twitch.tv/enricluzan/

[kingsey]

Tough day at scg Philly for me today. Either mana flood or no blue lands at all :(

[Purgatory]

Tough day at scg Philly for me today. Either mana flood or no blue lands at all :(

Same here, but in a local.

My losses were to ANT (killed me on turn one game one, I mulled to four in game two) and Reanimator (turn two Grizzle with double counter back-up both games), and there's not much to do against variance :(

[kingsey]

Back to DTB. Must be mostly Europe. All the American kids just copy the shardless list if they play BUG :cry:

[TheArchitect]

Back to DTB. Must be mostly Europe. All the American kids just copy the shardless list if they play BUG :cry:

Locally (Upstate NY) I see at least twice as much turn out, and success, from people playing BUG tempo compared to Shardless.

[Kagehisa]

Do you guys plan to play Swan Song, considering the bonus that you can cast it on your own Abrupt Decay and get a 2/2 blue Bird creature token with flying ? (Yes, it costs BUG mana and Abrupt Decay won't be countered by Swan Song.)

How is 2/2 blue Bird creature token with flying for U is in Team America ?

[P-AiR]

Have we tried Divert in the current Meta in the sideboard?

I'm mainly thinking of just how strong it is against other tempo decks i.e. RUG. Where they have so little mana little way, it'd be easier for us and advantageous to '2 for 1' them. Perhaps I'm being greedy here and flusterstorms should suffice but it really plays into the tempo game.

Not to mention that it's really only good against a select few decks - other tempo decks RUG/BUG delver, burn. In those match-ups I would replace FoWs with diverts for the tempo gain.

Possible targets include:
Ancestral Vision
Discard spells
Removal spells

Thoughts?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Do you guys plan to play Swan Song, considering the bonus that you can cast it on your own Abrupt Decay and get a 2/2 blue Bird creature token with flying ? (Yes, it costs BUG mana and Abrupt Decay won't be countered by Swan Song.)

How is 2/2 blue Bird creature token with flying for U is in Team America ?

That's a cool idea, but isn't it too conditional? I mean, it's a 3-color, 2-spell combo that at best gets you a 2/2 flyer. Kills Delver plus whatever the Decay is aimed at, but overall isn't it lacking in power?

-ABC

[Einherjer]

That's a cool idea, but isn't it too conditional? I mean, it's a 3-color, 2-spell combo that at best gets you a 2/2 flyer. Kills Delver plus whatever the Decay is aimed at, but overall isn't it lacking in power?

-ABC

I know another combination of two cards that costs 3 mana... I think it does something stronger than putting a 2/2 flyer into play.

Greetings

[kingsey]

Have we tried Divert in the current Meta in the sideboard?

I'm mainly thinking of just how strong it is against other tempo decks i.e. RUG. Where they have so little mana little way, it'd be easier for us and advantageous to '2 for 1' them. Perhaps I'm being greedy here and flusterstorms should suffice but it really plays into the tempo game.

Not to mention that it's really only good against a select few decks - other tempo decks RUG/BUG delver, burn. In those match-ups I would replace FoWs with diverts for the tempo gain.

Possible targets include:
Ancestral Vision
Discard spells
Removal spells

Thoughts?


Seems ok, I sometimes run out of gas when BUG suspends visions then they fill back up. If I could draw the 3 instead of them it would be hard to loose. I feel very comfy with my rug delver match. A simple tactic that works is waste their tropical then extract them. They have to kill you with delvers and bolts. Much easier match when you remove their ability to drop 8 of their threats :laugh:

[Qweerios]

I have been juggling with bUrg, Grixis, RUG, and TA late, and tested a great deal of different colors, threats, and spell combinations. I tried Stifle vs. additional counterspells, Thought Scour vs. Gitaxian Probe, Tombstalker vs. Mongoose, Goyf vs. no Goyf, Decay vs. Bolt, Snapcaster vs. Clique, and the list goes on and on and on...

In the end, the list I ended up with is what I feel is the most tempo oriented, most consistent, and most versatile tempo deck I have played as of late. It looks and feels a lot like RUG, except that it is less aggressive but more tempo-oriented, and more versatile. I chose to post it in this thread because it is BUG colored:


Creatures (12)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose

Spells (30)
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Dismember
4 Abrupt Decay

Lands (18)
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea

Sideboard (15)
2 Submerge
2 Envelop
2 Flusterstorm
2 Disfigure
1 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Life from the Loam
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Dread of Night
1 Sylvan Library


Having AD + DRS > Goyf + Bolt is the main difference. The SB is very similar as REB becomes Envelop, Grudge becomes KGrip, Sulfur Elemental becomes Dread of Night, and Rough // Tumble becomes Golgari Charm. Most games whether I play RUG or this, are being ended either by early Delvers or late Mongoose. However;

In the tempo mirror: AD tends to outshine Bolt by a large margin.
In the tempo mirror: DRS tends to outshine Goyf by giving you that extra mana to out-tempo your opponent or put you on par when on the draw, granting recurring reach, and preventing threshold and controlling Goyf size. A resolved DRS makes you the predator in this matchup because you usually get to produce twice the amount of mana, allowing you to Waste and Stifle merrily while laying down threats and filtering your draws.
-More tempo, more potent disruption, less raw aggression, worst "all-in" plan

Vs. control matchups: AD is clearly superior to Bolt as it answers problematic permanents reactively. Decay allows you to recover from a resolved CB, RiP, Deed, Bskull, Jitte, etc... while Bolt is usually underwhelming.
Vs. control matchups: DRS and Goyf both have their pros and cons. DRS is versatile in dealing with different areas of the game while Goyf is the better win condition #9-12. I am usually not concerned with the size of my threats when the goal of the matchup is to get any threat to stick. DRS has about as much staying power as Goyf against AD, StP, Deed, Verdict, Terminus, etc...
-More outs, more disruption, less raw aggression, worst "all-in" plan

Vs. combo matchups: Bolt and AD are both weak, but Bolt can at least be used. They both come out in G2 and G3 regardless of your deck.
Vs. combo matchups: DRS is superior to Goyf because of his lower initial cost. Having a bigger "clock" vs. combo is generally irrelevant if it means giving your opponent an opportunity to go off safely.
-About as many dead cards

Vs. aggro matchups/midrange: Goyf clearly outshine DRS with its raw size, but DRS is always an annoyance and worthy of removal in these matchups.
Vs. aggro matchups/midrange: Bolt is generally better than Decay because it costs 1 less mana and the deck generally has other ways to circumvent huge threats. Bolt is better at burying your opponent while Decay is better at getting back into a match.
-Less threats, less aggression, takes on the control role

Overall, losing the burn reach isn't that bad, it's doubling the mana cost of my main removal spell that hurts. However, what you lose in tempo on that aspect, you gain back by trading DRS for Goyf. SB options are fairly similar, I don't miss Red Blasts nearly as much as I thought I would. Fact is, I simply don't need as many SB tools when I gain so much versatility in the form of DRS and AD. Tempo is smoother, Control is better, Midrange feels better, Combo remains relatively the same, and Aggro is a bit more challenging. It's all about trading a bit of one-sided aggression for a lot of versatility.

One could argue that you can always trade Mongoose for Goyf and amount to a different analysis as well. I am still testing out different combinations.

[catmint]

Nice overview and evaluation about the different card choices in certain matchups.

Here my thoughts on some stuff where I don't agree.

Tempo mirror:
AD vs. Bolt. Uncounterable and killing tarmogoyf is big, but cmc 2 mean not being able to EOT or to have 2 plays in the same turn means that you will lose tempo. DRS cannot make up for that factor since it will die way too often I think. Also the is awkward with BG asthe 2 "splash colors". Mana will be disrupted and there will be awkward fetching situations. I think the strength of AD in your list compared to Bolt in RUG is much closer than you think. Just imagine how strong a spell must be for Canadian if it costs RG in order to REPLACE lighting bolt.

Goyf vs. Deathrite: Deathrite can be very powerful early, but mostly it will be a bolt target. In the late game a goyf is so much better against the lightning bolt deck. Not having goyf means you can only defend vs. goyf & goose with your own goose and the removal, which you will also have to use on delver.

Canadian also has Red-blast for the mirror which is very strong. Overall I think Canadian is favoured-

Another very big factor these days are the elves and death and taxes matchup. 1CMC removal is soooooooo much better in these matchups than AD and rough tumble > golgari charm.

[Qweerios]

@Catmint,

RUG and bUrg are the matchups I have tested the most against with this deck lately (12+ games or so) and I usually come out on top. Getting the right colors for Decay has never been an issue because I will always go for a Trop and a Volcanic. There are no reasons to fetch the same land twice so casting Decay is only a matter of getting 2 lands in play (AKA: casting Goyf). For this particular matchup, it doesn't matter that Decay costs 2 mana because that's usually what Bolt costs in a tempo mirror when you have to account for Daze, Pierce, Flusterstorm, and FoW. I play 6 removal spells that can answer Delver and Goyf and they play 4-6 that can answer Delver and DRS. They play the same game here where they have to choose to remove Delver or DRS. Basically, there isn't enough removal in either decks to eliminate the entirety of your opponent's threats. The main difference here is that instead of having to find a Goyf to match a Goyf, I can find uncounterable removal to match a Goyf or a Delver and power through instead of stalling the board. An early DRS will literally prevent threshold and manage Goyf sizes. With that done, I can concentrate on reaching threshold myself and counter their removal or stifle their manabase.

As far as dealing with DnT and Elves, those are matchups I have a lot of experience against (Roommate plays DnT and 2 dedicated Elves player at my local store). Black cards are generally the best at dealing with swarms and maverick-type decks (Darkblast, Deathmark, Disfigure, Virtue's Ruin, Perish, Engineered Plague, Dread of Night, Golgari Charm, etc.). Rough // Tumble can be mitigated by pro-red and red-removal-based decks have much difficulty dealing with active moms while black has more outs to an active mom. I am not convinced that Rough // Tumble is superior to Golgari Charm because the latter is relevant against Omniscience and Sneak (SnT), RiP (DnT post-board), and can protect your threats from Verdict/EE (Stoneblade) and AD/Deed (Nic Fit). However, I do agree that 1 CMC removal is better against DnT and Maverick pre-board.

Also, it's not like Goyf is out of the question either. You can always find a way to squeeze in 2-4 Goyfs in there... Or even Oozes!

[catmint]

Sounds very reasonable. Did you test against "yourself" or just against other players. Maybe your skill makes a difference, but I haven't tested your list against Canadian so no actual data to prove that your claim is wrong. Anyway I would see it very close and skill/draw being a lot more relevant than anything else.

I tried bug variants (with/without stifle) but never a configuration like this. Keep us posted about your results and tunes. I'll try it out some time.
bUrg justifies 3 deathrites, so maybe that makes sense for you as well if you then cut 1 random spell like probe you could fit in 2 goyfs. I never liked ooze in tempo... not a bit. Way to mana intensive and random.

Btw. Having 0 Thoughtseize feels wrong as well.

[Qweerios]

I tested against a reasonably skilled RUG opponent. He isn't an outstanding RUG player but he understands the basics and makes little missplays from time to time. We always try to rectify the plays and make them into the right play, therefore we don't play "with" the missplays. A lot of tempo matchups come down to who wins the die roll, and I usually don't take back the play until I lose. Considering I won the vast majority of our matches, the matchup is probably better than I anticipate because I was mostly playing with a handicap.

I played bUrg with 3 and 4 DRS and the sad truth is that the manabase simply cannot support 2 DRS at once. BUG, however, surely can and has been doing so quite successfully. Just like Mongoose and Delver, if I can support them in multiples, I will play the full set.

As far as including Goyf goes, I certainly don't want to lose any of my current 12 threats for him so it is a matter of trimming flex slots. Probe and Pierce are currently cards that I wish I could incorporate a 3rd copy of. Pierce is an excellent complement to the hard removal suite while Probe smooths the deck out, gives crucial information, and counts towards threshold for Mongoose and Goyf size as additional Sorcery. I like the 2 Dismember 4 Decay removal suite because it supports Mongoose and DRS as threats in order to close a game down. Having 6 hard removal spells while playing with 0 Goyf is comparable to playing a Geist deck with Bolts and StP. Because I don't have to overpower my opponent's threats, I simply have to clear the way for my own. So far, I have been actively looking for scenarios where I wish I had a pair of Goyfs in my deck to dig for. The truth is that Goyf is vanilla and is rarely a direct solution. As the deck stands now, if I wanted to fit in a pair of Goyfs it would be as additional threats and would probably replace Stifles. I would do the following changes to accommodate your concerns: -4 Stifle for +2 Goyf, +1 Pierce, and +1 Probe.

[catmint]

Well if you do that you are essentially a worse version of the old tap-out TA without discard and stalker but with goose and pierce. Stifle is the whole point...You call gitaxian a flex slots but you would rather cut stifle than touch them? ;-)

I like your removal...if i would try something it would be -1decay +1disfigure.

since you are trying out new stuff I would not be 'dogmatic' about the creature suite. There are other reasons why 4 deathrite in a stifle deck are not needed.

if i get the time ill test your list with the disfigure instead of decay and
-2 probe
-1 deathrite
+2 goyf
+ 1pierce

and probably a different board. can you explain why thoughtseize did not make it?

[Qweerios]

Read pages 148-150ish, I wrote a lot on Thoughtseize, Stifle, Probe, Spell Pierce, and how BUG can compete with RUG as a reactive tempo deck.

Basically, I don't think Mongoose and discard belong in the same deck. If you choose to rip your opponent's hand apart, you have to play the bigger threats because you don't get to negate your opponent's plays like reactive tempo does, but to weaken your opponent's initial game plan and responses to your own. To put this in context, Thoughtseizing one of your opponent's threats doesn't mean he won't play something bigger than your Mongoose. This sort of dis-synergy is comparable to Hymning away 2 removal spells when your only threat is a Mongoose. If your threats are bigger than your opponent's threats, discard handles removal. If your opponent's game plan doesn't involve interacting with your creatures, discard handles their strategy.

[Griselpuff]

How is the Shardless BUG matchup? I'm guessing it's not very good given that there are a lot of shared cards and they have more 2 for 1s and we aren't significantly faster.

[Qweerios]

Shardless BUG is difficult to beat with anything really. Given the right combination of cards, they are a very difficult fair deck to beat. Lists heavy in Baleful Strix and Liliana will be difficult for any tempo deck to beat while lists with Jaces and FoW are easier to take down.

However, it isn't a bad matchup by any means. Stifle goes a long way vs. Suspended visions, cascade triggers, and Planeswalker activations. Their mana base is also easy to disrupt as you can usually cut them off a color with Wastes and Stifles. Nimble Mongoose is very difficult to handle for them if they cannot block him with a Goyf or Strix. Our Decays handle their biggest threats while theirs cannot handle ours (Mongoose). We have a bit more digging power to find Sylvan Library or LftL, which is the equivalent of a resolved AV. My advice is to keep Hymn in mind, and kill DRS, Goyf, and Strix on sight.

Let's face it though, DRS, Goyf, Strix, and AD are all very good cards against tempo strategies, it's a lot to deal with.

Personally, I have played against Shardless BUG twice preboard and took 1 game on the play. I have also played 5 games post-board and took 4 games out of 5. The lists I played against didn't have Liliana and probably didn't play 4 Strix (2-3 copies I think).

My boarding vs. Shardless BUG

-4 FoW/Daze (Play/Draw)
-2 Spell Pierce
+2 Submerge
+2 Disfigure
+1 LftL
+1 Sylvan Library

[Qweerios]

Played at a small local weekly with an irregularly low turnout. We were 7 so there were only 3 rounds. There were only the core players present, the seen is dying slowly (everyone is getting old and nobody picks up this expensive format). Anyway, here's how it went:

2-1 vs. Dredge

I lost the die roll, lost G1 horribly, Took G2 with 2 Surgical in my opener, took G3 because my opponent mulliganed to 2...
SB: -4 Mongoose, -4 Decay, +2 Envelop, +2 Flusterstorm, +2 Surgical, +2 Disfigure

2-0 vs. BW Pox

I lost the die roll, won G1 countering everything, and won G2 doing the same.
SB: -2 FoW/Daze, -2 Dismember, +2 Envelop, +1 Sylvan, +1 LftL

1-2 vs. GB Pox

I lost the die roll, won G1 countering everything, lost G2 to The Abyss followed by Damnation on the lethal turn, and lost G3 to LftL + Waste as I countered LftL 3 times before finding threats that eventually got cleaned up by Smallpox and Liliana.
SB: -4 FoW/Daze, -2 Dismember, +2 Surgical, +2 Envelop, +1 Sylvan, +1 LftL

I used the following list:


Creatures (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf

Spells (28)
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Dismember
4 Abrupt Decay

Lands (18)
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea

Sideboard (15)
2 Submerge
2 Envelop
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library

[cheerios]

So what's the better build now? Stifle or no stifles?

[Dzra]

So what's the better build now? Stifle or no stifles?

I think you have to run Stifles in a tempo deck. Discard doesn't really belong in tempo (except perhaps from the SB against combo). You want to end the game with them having a full grip of cards that they either can't play or are afraid to play into your Dazes. I've been toying with a BUG Delver deck that is very similar to Qweerios's list except I run Goyf and Tombstalker over Goose, and I squeezed in Sinkholes to further disrupt their mana.

[cheerios]

I think you have to run Stifles in a tempo deck. Discard doesn't really belong in tempo (except perhaps from the SB against combo). You want to end the game with them having a full grip of cards that they either can't play or are afraid to play into your Dazes. I've been toying with a BUG Delver deck that is very similar to Qweerios's list except I run Goyf and Tombstalker over Goose, and I squeezed in Sinkholes to further disrupt their mana.

Would you mind sharing that list (with sideboard)? I'm trying to build the deck and am currently torn between stifle vs stifleless builds. I see the benefits of running stifle since I was primarily playing Canadian for the past few years; however, I can't see the how I can fit the stifles without dropping the hymns. Seems like they're mutually exclusive now. Reducing the creature count might be a possibility but we might risk dying to Swords to Plowshares.dec.

Also, is running Jitte a bad idea now?

[Qweerios]

Would you mind sharing that list (with sideboard)? I'm trying to build the deck and am currently torn between stifle vs stifleless builds. I see the benefits of running stifle since I was primarily playing Canadian for the past few years; however, I can't see the how I can fit the stifles without dropping the hymns. Seems like they're mutually exclusive now. Reducing the creature count might be a possibility but we might risk dying to Swords to Plowshares.dec.

Also, is running Jitte a bad idea now?

Why would you want to play Stifle and Hymn together? Committing to Hymn requires you to have BB mana available by T2. For that you have to get your curve up to support regular 2 CMC cards like 4 Goyf, 4 AD, and 2-3 Stalkers. You need more creatures to fight through removal, and more lands to support your cards. I don't think you should look for a middle ground between Stifle and Hymn, rather, you should go big on Hymn or big on Stifle.

Jitte is always a good SB card in TA.

Also, you won't run out of threats vs. StP if you play Mongoose.

[cheerios]

Why would you want to play Stifle and Hymn together? Committing to Hymn requires you to have BB mana available by T2. For that you have to get your curve up to support regular 2 CMC cards like 4 Goyf, 4 AD, and 2-3 Stalkers. You need more creatures to fight through removal, and more lands to support your cards. I don't think you should look for a middle ground between Stifle and Hymn, rather, you should go big on Hymn or big on Stifle.

Jitte is always a good SB card in TA.

Also, you won't run out of threats vs. StP if you play Mongoose.

Yup. I'm currently on the traditional build (2 Stalkers).

[Dzra]

Would you mind sharing that list (with sideboard)?

This is still just in the sketches department, but it'll likely get tested out this weekend or next. I'm unsure of several of the numbers, as I've indicated. Deathrite should make it much more possible than previous Team America builds to cast a t2 Sinkhole while leaving Stifle/Pierce up. The reach of Tombstalker is nice, but likely would mean I'd have to cut back on a Goyf or two. Despite how nice it'd be to have a threat base consisting entirely of 1cmc creatures, I really don't think Mongoose is strong enough to cut it in a meta full of Goyfs and Deathrites.

//Land 18-19
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3-4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1-2 Bayou

//Creatures 12-14
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2-4 Tarmogoyf
0-2 Tombstalker

//Other Spells 28-30
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
0-3 Spell Pierce
3-4 Sinkhole
4 Stifle
4 Abrupt Decay

The sideboard is fairly standard with what people have been coming up with. I wouldn't play Swan Song over Envelop due to Delver. Possibly there is a place for Massacre or the 4th Sinkhole if I end up going with 3 MD. Possibly the Crypts should be something else, but I love the old border Time Shifted foils that I have. q_q

//Sideboard 15
SB: 2 Disfigure
SB: 2 Envelop
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Submerge
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique

[cheerios]

This is still just in the sketches department, but it'll likely get tested out this weekend or next. I'm unsure of several of the numbers, as I've indicated. Deathrite should make it much more possible than previous Team America builds to cast a t2 Sinkhole while leaving Stifle/Pierce up. The reach of Tombstalker is nice, but likely would mean I'd have to cut back on a Goyf or two. Despite how nice it'd be to have a threat base consisting entirely of 1cmc creatures, I really don't think Mongoose is strong enough to cut it in a meta full of Goyfs and Deathrites.

//Land 18-19
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3-4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1-2 Bayou

//Creatures 12-14
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2-4 Tarmogoyf
0-2 Tombstalker

//Other Spells 28-30
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
0-3 Spell Pierce
3-4 Sinkhole
4 Stifle
4 Abrupt Decay

The sideboard is fairly standard with what people have been coming up with. I wouldn't play Swan Song over Envelop due to Delver. Possibly there is a place for Massacre or the 4th Sinkhole if I end up going with 3 MD. Possibly the Crypts should be something else, but I love the old border Time Shifted foils that I have. q_q

//Sideboard 15
SB: 2 Disfigure
SB: 2 Envelop
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Submerge
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique

Looks like a throwback list with the stifles and sinkholes! How are they in testing? I think Mongoose is a meta call. Mongoose really shines if you're expecting lots of UWx decks. The default creature configuration looks better if you're expecting Jund, Canadian and Maverick.

[useL]

Went on a break from this thread for 3 months. Came back and the same discussion on Stifle vs no Stifle. Doesn't it get old?

[catmint]

Qweerios came up with a new idea of how to abuse max. tempo with stifle and deathrite like burg but sacrificing Red for a stable manbase. This is worth trying out and discussing. Since People are mixing up stifle with discard builds it goes back to former stifle discussions.

[Dzra]

Testing against Shardless BUG didn't go particularly well. Even with Stifle, Sinkhole, and Deathrites of my own, their Deathrites still wreck havoc on trying to tempo them. Perhaps the BURG builds actually are the better way to go since Red gives them a few more ways to kill opposing Deathrites early.

[cheerios]

Had my first tourney (50 players) with TA and ended it with a 4-2 record. Both loses reached game 3's. Seems like the deck has a hard time fighting Lilianna and creatures that can't be decayed nor dismembered. Has Sower of Temptation been tried before? The deck can produce the mana for casting it. Might also try Diabolic Edict as well.

[Arcadia]

About Hymn or no hymn: Anything can be argued, but hymn gives more free wins than any other card in the deck. And if you play a bit the deck, you notice that the win % increases quite a lot when you cast an hymn. I don't really care which card I discard, I just want to unstabilize my oponent until I kill him. I prefere to discard two decent cards against combo instead of using a thoughtseize, discard one and die because you really didn't do anything. A thoughtseize won't win a control deck or a combo deck, a hymn will.

I think the mentality when playing this deck is to kill as fast as possible while disrupting the opponent. Which means that you need to tap yourself to cast creatures and control less. I tend to mulligan hands without delver or shaman for instance. If you want to control more...just play shardless BUG or RUG.
This can be applied to stifle and pierce MD (specially stifle): Sure they are good, but keeping mana open doesn't really fit the plan of dropping threats and unstabilizing the opponent with wasteland, removal and discard.

Extra: 4 disfigure in the SB have been amazing for me. Delvers, shamans, confidants, pyromancers...Maybe it's overkill, but it makes things much better against any of those decks. I saw two of them in the MD of a list, and I'm considering it instead of the singleton Clique + Dismember.
Something else I considered is 2 ghost quarter in the SB against bug, shardless control and rug. But I'm not sure if it's 100% worth the two slots.

[Purgatory]

Re: Disfigure: Has everyone forgotten about Darkblast? Sure it doesn't kill Shaman or flipped Delver without a draw step or some other help, but it does kill Pyromancer, Bob, most of DnT, all the elves (well, most of them), etc and it's reusable, contrary to Disfigure. I like Disfigure as much as the next guy, but Darkblast deserves some love too.

[wcm8]

Team America finally gets its own Mongoose / Sulfuric Vortex:

nemesis of identity 1UU
Merfolk rogue
When ~~ enters the battlefield, choose a player.
~~ has protection from chosen player (It can't be blocked, targeted, damaged, enchanted by a source controlled by this player)
3/1.

(early spoiler from the Commander set)

Ramping to 3 for TA is hardly an issue, and that's generally the point at which Mongoose becomes a real threat anyways.

A few major advantages:
1. Immune to GY Hate. Important for a deck that has a lot of its creatures heavily affected by stuff like Rest in Peace.
2. It's Blue. Maintaining a high Blue count is important for a 3-color deck that runs FoW.
3. Progenitus-like resiliency makes it just as good on defense as it is on offense. Especially good for holding off a Batterskull token while your Delvers/Stalkers get in for the kill. It also offers a solution to Mirran Crusader, which has been seeing a lot of play recently.

Swords to Plowshares was ALWAYS a problem for TA, since it lacked a maindeck shroud creature and doesn't have Burn to close out a stalled board state.

This is a card that should definitely be under consideration. Before this was spoiled, I was 99% sure that I was going to run BUG Cascade for the GP this November. Now I might need to reconsider going back to good ol' TA.

I think I would run 2-3 in the maindeck, likely replacing Tombstalker. Sure, it's a little slower than the demon in closing out a game, but it offers more inevitability. Testing will tell if more are warranted in the sideboard for your control matchups.

[Griselpuff]

This is awesome!!!!!!

Don't forget Crusader has double strike. I guess if you're talking about offense, this guy is awesome though.

[wcm8]

This is awesome!!!!!!

Don't forget Crusader has double strike. I guess if you're talking about offense, this guy is awesome though.

It doesn't matter. If it blocks a Crusader, Crusader's damage (both times) is reduced to zero since it is a source controlled by your opponent.

[AngryTroll]

This guy pretty clearly competes with Clique and Tombstalker for creatures 13 and 14. I'm not sure any of the three have a clear advantage over the other two. I think it's a two part question:
1) Is this guy better than Clique, and
2) Is the 1UU creature better than Tombstalker?

I know most lists run Tombstalker over Clique in the maindeck. It's at least an interesting option for Team America (and maybe it can be debated instead of Stifle vs. Thoughtseize vs. Hymn for a few days!).

[kingsey]

It sucks he can't be foiled.. I may stick with my tombstalkers just for that reason.....


...Is that wrong? :cry:

[wcm8]

I also really like the new sweeper:

Toxic Deluge
2B
Sorcery
Pay X life, creatures get -X/-X

It's a wrath effect at a reasonable cost that can (sometimes) selectively not kill your own dudes. It can come in against every creature matchup to supplement your targeted removal. It solves the dilemma of choosing between Perish and Virtues Ruin, while also being serviceable against stuff like Merfolk, Goblins, Affinity, etc. The life loss can be mitigated by your Shamans.

With this card and True Name Nemesis added to the Legacy card pool, BUG seems to be the strongest all-around color combination. The question is, do you want to have a better game against combo or against midrange/Aggro? That's the main deciding factor between TA and BUG Cascade.

[BennBeckmann]

Ok, at first sight, Nemesis of Identity seemed pretty good, but the more I think about it, the more overpowered it seems! I'm going to participate at Bazaar of Moxen in two weeks and I'll definitely play TA. But do you really think that it fulfills the role of Tombstalker so easily? Tombstalker is just so much bigger! And if yes, would you rather have stifles than discard? I've been very certain about my Maindeck configuration but considering this new card unhinges me. I'll pack at least 2 Golgari Charm + Infest in my SB.
Btw I really like this creature with Oonas Blackguard and Cavern of Souls ;)

[somethingdotdotdot]

Wouldn't discard be favorable w/ nemesis since it gives you the ability to take their liliana/fow before casting him. On the other hand, stifle helps you get to 3 mana--which is good versus the other delver decks in the format, but doesn't necessary help nemesis survive.

[Qweerios]

I playtested Nemesis tonight in my BUG Delver deck as a replacement for 2 Goyfs. It worked out pretty good and made me come back from an active Jitte. Nemesis was a really nice complement to Mongoose. Here's what I used:


Creatures (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 True-Name Nemesis

Spells (28)
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Dismember
4 Abrupt Decay

Lands (18)
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea

Sideboard (15)
3 Envelop
3 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library
1 Pithing Needle

[BennBeckmann]

I just returned from BoM, didn't make day 2 with 5-2-1 drop after scrubbing round 8. I played against Jund (win), Elves (win), Elves (draw), Elves (loss, against Julian Knab, the winner of BoM), MUD (win), RUG (win), Zombardement (loss) and someting else that I've forgotten. I was playing a 3/2 hymn/ thoughtseize split and a 2/1 Nemesis/ Tombstalker split in my list, the rest was standard. As most people around me, I was pretty underwhelmed by the impact of True-Name Nemesis. It was nice in some situations but just not good enough (in terms of power) or bad (in terms of casting) in others. My opinion about this card is, that it doesn't contribute anything to the deck. If you wanna play it because it gets you out of unfavorable situations, rather avoid such situations in the first place! If you're aim is to win quickly (which is the case with Team America), this card's impact is way too low. I'll stick with Tombstalkers.
Toxic Deluge, on the other hand, has been bonkers! This card is exactly the card that this deck needed and you can actually board it against almost everything.
After BoM, my Sidboard looks like this:
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Pithing Needle
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Winter Orb
2 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
1 Disfigure
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sylvan Library

I hope you can profit a bit from my statements.
cheers

[Arsenal]

Aside from Mongoose, what is Toxic Deluge hitting that Infest isn't? Getting a Toxic Deluge countered seems brutal too.

[lavafrogg]

Aside from Mongoose, what is Toxic Deluge hitting that Infest isn't? Getting a Toxic Deluge countered seems brutal too.

It is easier to cast and hits 1/1's without killing your shaman(against elves) and can be used to wipe the board of anything...angel tokens, goyfs, Merfolk +lords.

[wcm8]

Back on the Team America train. I think Nemesis might have been the final piece of the puzzle for making TA arguably the 'best deck' in Legacy. We have every tool needed. The only thing I can really think of on my wish list for new cards would be a black Swords to Plowshares. I will try my best to take down the Grand Prix, but if I fail I'm sure someone will be taking BUG to the Top 8.

Thoughtseize over Hymn btw. Especially if we see a meta shift towards combo and control. It feels great to nearly always have a strong turn 1 play: Delver, DRS, Seize, and Ponder (to set up the next few turns).

[Grand Superior]

I've been testing True-Name Nemesis in Team America and it's been savage so far. I do miss the power that Tombstalker brings, but it's nice to have a powerful threat that doesn't care about the graveyard/can't be Submerge'd. I also believe that any TNN deck with Deathrite Shaman is just strictly better and TNN sure as hell fits this BUG deck better than in Shardless BUG.

I'm testing the Team America list from BoM with -1 True-Name Nemesis +1 Maelstrom Pulse because I just like having the catch-all answer/something more to flip Delver. I agree, Thoughtseize is where we want to be and it also makes it so we don't need to hit double black (for Hymn) and double blue (for Nemesis) to function properly. Do you think the deck needs four copies of TNN?

[wcm8]

3-4 seems to be the right amount. You want to see it every game against anytimg that's not combo, but it *is* a three drop... One thing I've considered is cutting the 4th Goyf for the 4th TNN, but all things considered, Goyf is still the best beater in the format. You also want as many as possible against the Tempo mirror, whereas TNN is going to be tough to resolve.

[wcm8]

I wanted to share two obscure cards, which at some point I'll get around to adding to the sideboard guide:

Marsh Casualties - here we have a one-sided Nausea effect which may prove useful now that we are incorporating TNN (or unflipped Delvers)

Forsaken Wastes - as it turns out, Black *does* have it's own Sulfuric Vortex. It's slower, but it at least does something when removed. Could be useful against various Control strategies, shuts off Jitte and lifelink, also interferes with the Punishing Fire/Grove of the Burnwillows engine. I'm not sure we need it as badly as RUG needs Vortex, but it's another tool to have handy.

[seamonkeyman]

I played the BoM list tonight at a local and got destroyed by Punishing Jund. I felt overmatched in every aspect of the game. The PFires were just too much in the long grindy game since it completely blanks all our Deathrites and Delvers, with Decay taking care of Goyfs and Bob netting them card advantage.
Does anyone have advice for this matchup, or is it just a lost cause?

[BennBeckmann]

I think the Sideboardoptions are very interesting, although I'm not sure if I wouldn't rather have Toxic Deluge generally over Marsh Casualties. Also, while PFire/Burnwillows Combo is a good point for Forsaken Wastes, I'm not sure if I would contribute a SB Slot for it.

I agree, if you're running the Nemesis, you probably want to have at least 3 MD and you should Play Thoughtseize over Hymn. The Thing with Hymn is, if you Play it you should really play it as a 4-of and Tombstalker profites from it the most because your Opponent has to find the answer to it mostly within 1 or 2 rounds before the game is closed.

In the Jund Matchup, I found Pithing Needle and Disfigure most helpful. Also, since they are running 4 Hymn, it's useful to run 4 Hymns in this matchup, too, because the one who casts more hymns earlier is more likely to win. I also used to pack Spell Pierce against them and I can only recommend Winter Orb because it shuts down their punishing Fire and prevents them from casting their Bloodbraid Elfs, which is the most devastating Thing they have against us.

I'm still not convinced about the Nemesis but I must admit that I'm not testing too much lately because I'm currently not living in my hometown and haven't found any seríous testing Partners. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not generally discarding the Nemesis- but I think you can't just replace it with Tombstalker and expect to get better results with it. You should probably overthink the whole idea of the deck and possibly fundamentally Change your way of thinking towards the deck.

That said, I've always had one Flexslot in the Tombstalkershell which I kept switching between Lili, Clique, Library and Thoughtseize but I haven't been satisfied with any of them. So now I'm going to test a singleton Temporal Mastery Maindeck, because I think it's time to give the deck another unfair component and I think it may just be what the deck wants.

[Griselpuff]

Hove, would you mind sharing your current list?

Also, what is your SB plan vs. D&T and Elves, as well as UWR Delver? Those are 3 match-ups that I'm expecting to see a lot of in DC.

[kingsey]

Played a local with my standard list. Lost to Esperblade due to horrible mana screw. Then lost to miracles, then a win vs miracles.

Rest in peace sucks. I may switch the tombstalker slots to the TNN just to be able to get there thru the rip.

[BennBeckmann]

Sure, this is my current list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Flexslot (I'm planning to test Temporal Mastery but right now, I'd probably run Clique.)

Toxic Deluge, Disfigure and Flusterstorm in against Elves, and out Daze and a Goyf. Against DnT also Deluge and Disfigure as well as Needles and a Clique. Out Goyfs and Tombstalker. If you expect a lot of these Decks there, I'd Switch the Pulse for Golgari Charm and bring it in against them as well.
Against UWR Toxic Deluge is also very good and I'd bring in Thoughtseize, Lili and possibly Needles if they run Lavamancer. Out Force on the play, 2-4 hymns and Dismember. This matchup is tough and I haven't really found the best Sideboardplan yet.

[Griselpuff]

I actually find UWR to be favorable, even though I haven't figured out exactly what I want to do yet. Are you sure about Deluge? I think Golgari Charm is just better because you never really want to pay that much life to wipe the entire board b/c you usually start out ahead due to DRS. I haven't tested Deluge, so I could be wrong. What are the situations that come up often where you like it?

Also, I don't think I like Pithing Needle. It has a lot of targets, but it's a reactive spell when I think it's better when we are really proactive about pressuring your opponents. I would not side out Hymns vs. UWR because you can hit equipment and they are very land light for a deck that wants to cast 3 drops.

[stage]

Saw this top8 from SCG:LA with pretty stock list. 3 Sinkhole in board is interesting

StarCityGames.com Legacy Open - Los Angeles, CA
Number of Players : 281
Date: 03/11/2013 Format: Legacy
Deck Name: BUG Position: 7
Team America Denis Ulanov (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=12129&iddeck=88896)

Creatures [15]
3 Tombstalker
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf

Instants [17]
1 Disfigure
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will


Sorceries [8]
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder

Lands [20]
1 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Engineered Plague
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Disfigure
1 Dismember
1 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
2 Spell Pierce
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Life from the Loam
3 Sinkhole

[BennBeckmann]

I like Deluge because it's actually our only out to Geist and it can easily get you back in the game once you've fallen behind on the board. Removing two flipped Delvers at once is sweet :)
The thing with Hymn is that it often fells too clunky in Tempo MUs, especially when they run Stifle. You might be right about not siding them out, though, I guess it depends on being otp or otd as well.

[Griselpuff]

Geist is stumped by Tombstalker and Goyf, as well as Liliana post-board.

I find the match-up to be quite grindy, so I like Liliana, Sylvan, Charms and Hymn. I think I like boarding out FoWs and Tombstalkers (due to StP and RIP).

[Neffy]

No posted Decklists with TNN?

I have tested this a few times and it seemed quite strong

1 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Brainstorm
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Disfigure
3 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
1 Sylvan Library
4 Tarmogoyf
4 True-Name Nemesis
4 Force of Will

No planeswalkers since I want it to range between tempo and midrange if possible. TNN is insane as blocker while delvers go in, or vice versa. THe color combination of BUG also helps against opposing TNNs etc.
To make full use of TNN a Jitte or Two could be added to the maindeck. With rise of Death and taxes BUG might have good chances as TNN stops batterskull and the various available sweepers; deed, golgari charm, plague, deluge should help a lot! Compared to other BUG decks this is less relying on the graveyard, as now 8 creatures can deliever beats without a yard (apart from 1/2 DRS).

Any thoughts?

[Grand Superior]

@Neffy

My list is identical to yours except I have 20 lands (notably 3 USea, 3 Trop, 1 Bayou mix with nine fetchlands) -1 TNN, -1 Disfigure, -1 Sylvan Library +1 Ponder +1 Maelstrom Pulse. I like having the 20 lands because we're trying to hit a three drop now and I want more spells to flip Delver with.

It has been testing quite well. Every I resolve TNN against something like Canadian Threshold I don't feel like I can lose. It's also nice that it doesn't care about Rest in Peace unlike in previous incarnations of Team America where 3/4 of our threats got hosed by it. Sometimes I wish I had the fourth TNN but it hasn't been terribly relevant thus far.

My sideboard is a complete mess, though. What do you have on yours? I currently run:

2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Life from the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Sylvan Library
1 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge

And I haven't been 100% happy with it.

[Neffy]

@Grand Superior

Maybe 20 lands is better (im normally only going below 20 in real aggro decks, like Zoo, ur delver, etc).
I can also see point in having 3 TNN instead of 4. It is kinda overkill and doesnt really change much. if you get down a TNN its nice, if you have 2 online its nuts. I would propably rather play 2-3 other spells than using 3 mana on casting a third..
I will test 3 instead.

My SB is not finished either, but this is what i typically go with:

1 Disfigure
2 Flusterstorm
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Golgari Charm
2 Engineered Plague
1 Krosan Grip

I am also considering
2 Divert (for other decays), or maybe hymns or duresses against storm?
1-2 toxic deluge. I like this one, but it kinda destroys every creature we have except goyf if X=2.. so its dangerous to play. I think one is ok.
1 Maelstrom pulse for angel tokens
1-2 cliques for combo

i either run lillianas main or not at all. I will try to get around it this time i think.
So you run only 4 Decay and 1 pulse main for removal?

[testing32]

I'm really liking the list that just top 8ed Dallas. I think the main deck looks pretty good. I might swap the edict with the 4th decay. I'm a little concerned about the spell count for delver but the upside of resolving a turn 2 liliana is really high.

The board looks pretty decent as well. I would probably try and find room for a golgari charm, toxic deluge and a couple of graftdigger's cages.

[lavafrogg]

BUG Delver
A Legacy Magic deck, by Jason Crone

Maindeck:

Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker

Instants
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 Diabolic Edict
4 Force of Will

Planeswalkers
3 Liliana of the Veil

Sorceries
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder

Lands
2 Bayou
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Gilded Drake
3 Engineered Plague
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Krosan Grip
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Life from the Loam
3 Thoughtseize

The list.

[AngryTroll]

I think I like the Diabolic Edicts in the board. They're solid against all the fair decks, where you want to board out Force, and Show and Tell, where you want to board out the Abrupt Decays. I like Clique for a similar reason; it's great against combo, pretty good against Stoneforge, and reasonable against fair decks. I have 2 Clique and 3 Thoughtseize / Duress / Inquisition in the board for combo.

I find it awkward to sideboard against the fair decks on the draw because Force and Daze can both come out, but devoting eight slots to the fair matchups is also a losing proposition. I tend to run some combination of at least four Diabolic Edict, Golgari Charm, Submerge, and Divert for these matchups.

Massacre is about the best thing we can do against Death and Taxes. Especially when paired with Golgari Charms or Edicts, we have a ton of removal against D&T, Vial Goblins, and the Elves! builds that include Savannah.

Nihil Spellbomb and Grafdigger's Cage are at the top of my graveyard-hate list. For a large, unknown tournament, my sideboard would look something like:

3 Thoughtseize
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Massacre
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Golgari Charm
2 Submerge

[Dragonslayer_90]

So I've made the switch to Team America from Shardless BUG since I think Team is the better positioned BUG deck at the moment. Also, these days I feel like going Turn One Delver than suspending Ancestral Visions:tongue: Anyways, last night I decided to go to a store I've never been to before that runs legacy tournaments most Tuesdays. I ended up going 3-0 in the swiss before splitting the 4th round with my opponent. Here's the list I played:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tombstalker
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Hymn to Tourach

SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Disfigure
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 Chill
SB: 3 Duress

I'm happy with most of the maindeck. I'm just wondering if my Lili's should just be edicts or anything not so color intensive and cheaper though. Not that they didn'y performe well for me, but they can be clunky at times.

For my sb I think I'm going to take out the Jitte. It seemed pretty clunky most of the day when I boarded it in. Also, my hunch that there was a lot of burn in this store seems to be not true anymore. All the burn players have moved on to better decks. That's why the Chills were in there in the first place. Also, that's why I have Duress instead of thoughtseize.

Here's my questions for other Team Players:

1. So I played a friendly with my final round opponent. He was on RUG Delver. Both games showcased my inexperience with tempo mirrors as I essentially got wasteland/stifled out of both of them. But I played against RUG again with one of the guy's buddies after the tournament and won 2 out of 3 games. The plan against RUG I adopted in these games was to make sure I can establish my mana base and play the control role. Is that correct? What should I be doing against RUG? What should I be siding in and out?

2. So I played against elves and won yesterday. I sided out my lilis and dazes for 2 disfigure, 2 g charm, 1 cage, 1 jitte. What I'm unsure of is whether I should be siding any dazes out since I realized after the match that siding out all my dazes makes my blue count for FoW sketchy. So my question is what should be my sb plan against elves?

[alastair]

I’ve been unable to get any testing in recently but was wondering if anyone has tried, or considers it worth testing, Toxic Deluge main deck on an old 4 Goyf and 4 Stalker build.

I’m unsure if the loss of Deathrite and Delver would be too sever, but the gain in what would effectively be a one-sided wrath seams promising. I’ve no definitive list, but 8 threats potentially supported by a few Lilliana; with either the stifle/sinkhole or a Hymn disruption plan.

[kingsey]

slayer,

your rug match up should be positive . You rip their hand up, decay their goyf and smash in with yours.

[KobeBryan]

So I've made the switch to Team America from Shardless BUG since I think Team is the better positioned BUG deck at the moment. Also, these days I feel like going Turn One Delver than suspending Ancestral Visions:tongue: Anyways, last night I decided to go to a store I've never been to before that runs legacy tournaments most Tuesdays. I ended up going 3-0 in the swiss before splitting the 4th round with my opponent. Here's the list I played:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tombstalker
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Hymn to Tourach

SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Disfigure
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 Chill
SB: 3 Duress

I'm happy with most of the maindeck. I'm just wondering if my Lili's should just be edicts or anything not so color intensive and cheaper though. Not that they didn'y performe well for me, but they can be clunky at times.

For my sb I think I'm going to take out the Jitte. It seemed pretty clunky most of the day when I boarded it in. Also, my hunch that there was a lot of burn in this store seems to be not true anymore. All the burn players have moved on to better decks. That's why the Chills were in there in the first place. Also, that's why I have Duress instead of thoughtseize.

Here's my questions for other Team Players:

1. So I played a friendly with my final round opponent. He was on RUG Delver. Both games showcased my inexperience with tempo mirrors as I essentially got wasteland/stifled out of both of them. But I played against RUG again with one of the guy's buddies after the tournament and won 2 out of 3 games. The plan against RUG I adopted in these games was to make sure I can establish my mana base and play the control role. Is that correct? What should I be doing against RUG? What should I be siding in and out?

2. So I played against elves and won yesterday. I sided out my lilis and dazes for 2 disfigure, 2 g charm, 1 cage, 1 jitte. What I'm unsure of is whether I should be siding any dazes out since I realized after the match that siding out all my dazes makes my blue count for FoW sketchy. So my question is what should be my sb plan against elves?

don't play liliana...play edict. you need to flip the delvers.

[Dragonslayer_90]

slayer,

your rug match up should be positive . You rip their hand up, decay their goyf and smash in with yours.

I see. I guess I lost because of lack of experience with the deck really. Should be able to do better next time around.


don't play liliana...play edict. you need to flip the delvers.

Makes sense. Less clunky and helps flip delver.

I'm wondering what everyone thinks of True-Name Nemesis in Team America? The way I see it my draw to him is having a threat that is not gy reliant, ultra resilient, and can help stabilize the board against other creature decks. The cons of playing him is you kind of have to cut hymn and play thoughtseize instead since double blue and double black seems a little to greedy for the main deck. I don't think this is best shell for True-Name Nemesis, but I think he could find a home in a different breed of Team. I think I'm going to test him out at my LGS today. I'll report on how I do sometime after.

[Jessenator]

Signorini is most likely locked in top 8 of the GP at 39 points. Let's all pray he is playing Team America!

[nitewolf9]

Signorini is most likely locked in top 8 of the GP at 39 points. Let's all pray he is playing Team America!

I was in fact playing Team America. I went 6-0 on day 2 and made 9th :/.

Still had some of the best games of magic I've ever played today. Lots of intense moments.

[Griselpuff]

So Team Curio had 6 people playing Tombstalker TA, and of the 6, Dan got 9th, I got 16th, Alix cashed, James day 2'd.

66% Day 2, 50% cashed.

Deck is stupid good. :laugh:

Also, Dan losing out to Sam Black on .1% breakers was some bullshit given Dan had 0 byes and Sam had 3. Eff pros.

[lavafrogg]

Did you guys all play the same lists?

[SirTylerGalt]

So Team Curio had 6 people playing Tombstalker TA, and of the 6, Dan got 9th, I got 16th, Alix cashed, James day 2'd.

66% Day 2, 50% cashed.

Deck is stupid good. :laugh:

Also, Dan losing out to Sam Black on .1% breakers was some bullshit given Dan had 0 byes and Sam had 3. Eff pros.

Grats on the results!

It sucks that Dan didn't get to Top 8 :( Would have loved seeing TA in the Top 8!

[infiniteJ]

Grats on the results!

It sucks that Dan didn't get to Top 8 :( Would have loved seeing TA in the Top 8!

Brutal to miss but congrats on the impressive run.

I'm curious to see your list.

I played the French nemesis list with some sideboard tweaks. Started out 6-0, just crushing 2x rug, 2x uwr. I then lost to storm and esper. I was given the gift of playing an unloseable match for win and in- stasis (?). Day two I felt great and was playing well but promptly lost to storm, dnt, and elves. I then rallied to beat goblins merfolk and elves to finish 11-5. Day one all the delver. Day 2 all the tribal.

The deck felt very strong and I liked a lot what nemesis added, especially in the fair matchups. One problem I always had w stalker was vs decks that could max out and power out a lot of removal like uwr. Honestly though, I missed tombstalkers presence in the sky as that's how I lost a close g 3 to dnt when he had no lands no cards in hand, and vial on 3. The board was gummed up w nemesis vs mother and co, and he ripped some consecutive flyers. I also missed the sinkholes in the board vs esper as the Lillies pulse and tarpit just didn't seem quite able to get the job done. I was really bummed to go 0-2 vs ant considering how interactive the bug deck becomes post board. One storm player was a sourcer (w mat, didn't get his name on here) and a pleasure to play compared to the other one who was sloppy and accidentally cheated me by fetching swamp w misty.

The 16 threat configuration felt a little heavy at times as I lost every g1 to combo in the dark keeping like ponder deathrite waste fetch goyf decay nemesis type hands. 15 is maybe right. The switch to trop manabase and thoughtsieze was ok-being a 1 mana spell allows you to ponder into it more consistently and have openings like deathrite to seize delver.

I have more thoughts but just typed this on my phone so sorry for typos and incoherence.

[Adryan]

I was in fact playing Team America. I went 6-0 on day 2 and made 9th :/.

Still had some of the best games of magic I've ever played today. Lots of intense moments.

Congrats to another fantastic Legacy GP finish. 9th is still very great, given the fact you had 0 byes.
Can you share your list with the rest of us?

[metronome2charisma]

i would love to see the list too.

[Griselpuff]

My list and Dan's are up now.

The TA players played 59/60 of the same MD list (I preferred Liliana, most others preferred Disfigure), and then most of the same SB.

[KobeBryan]

My list and Dan's are up now.

The TA players played 59/60 of the same MD list (I preferred Liliana, most others preferred Disfigure), and then most of the same SB.

Did you guys find running 20 lands clunky? I run 19 and sometimes i see too many

[Griselpuff]

The deck is too many hungry to run fewer. I do side out 1 Bayou vs. the decks that don't have Wasteland.

['Nilla Pac]

Also, Dan losing out to Sam Black on .1% breakers was some bullshit given Dan had 0 byes and Sam had 3. Eff pros.

Unfortunately, that is one of the benefits of having three byes at the Grand Prix. If you start with 3 byes, after round 4, your OMW% is going to start at 75% if you win and 100% if you lose. If you have to play the first three rounds, your tiebreakers are going to suffer since your opponents on average won't be doing as well. Granted, there are fifteen rounds and anything can happen with OMW% (it came down to a couple tenths of a percent), but the player with the byes has the very small edge.

It would be cool if the amount of byes could be skewed to lower the OMW% to favor those that actually won their rounds the hard way, but they would have to redo how tiebreakers are calculated and that isn't going to happen. Grand Prixs are already skewed toward pros - getting 3 byes and having to go 4-2 instead of 7-2 to make day 2 is a big deal. It's somewhat unfair, but I feel somewhat sorry for anyone who is actually trying to make a living playing Magic and I almost think they should have it.

Dan did have almost a 2% edge on Sam Black going into the last round, so he did get unlucky that more of his previous opponents didn't do as well as Sam's.

I was rooting for Dan. He reminds me of myself - a player who has a life and doesn't take the game super seriously yet is able to be competitive at Magic at the same time (although it goes without saying he is better at Magic than I am).

[KobeBryan]

how do you guys beat death and taxes with BUG?

['Nilla Pac]

So the main deck of the DC list is the same as the Denver list with a disfigure instead of a Dismember? Crazy.

[lavafrogg]

So the main deck of the DC list is the same as the Denver list with a disfigure instead of a Dismember? Crazy.

So slick. The list is good, I played it last week.

[MinosSnt]

how do you guys beat death and taxes with BUG?

I have the same question and on a french forum, everyone told me that D&T is a good match up with TNN... I don't understand how you can say this... This match up is really hard for TA or TA with Nemesis. I played against a friend this sunday and I won 1 game even with the SB.

If someone could help be :) I'm listening

[Ralf]

I have the same question and on a french forum, everyone told me that D&T is a good match up with TNN... I don't understand how you can say this... This match up is really hard for TA or TA with Nemesis. I played against a friend this sunday and I won 1 game even with the SB.

If someone could help be :) I'm listening

Nope. The MU is negative pre-SB and still negative post-SB. And I am pretty sure the french forum is not telling you that the MU is good...

RIP is still very very strong against TA. I guess if you want to perform better with TA in this particular meta, you have to find beaters which dodge grave hate / or a hate vs hater. Against RIP, your best shot is, IMHO, Stifle because DRS, Tarmo, Tombstalker are nowhere to be able to dodge grave hate. Stifling the CIP trigger of RIP is not the best move but at least, you could keep a tarmo with a decent size...

[MinosSnt]

Nope. The MU is negative pre-SB and still negative post-SB. And I am pretty sure the french forum is not telling you that the MU is good...

RIP is still very very strong against TA. I guess if you want to perform better with TA in this particular meta, you have to find beaters which dodge grave hate / or a hate vs hater. Against RIP, your best shot is, IMHO, Stifle because DRS, Tarmo, Tombstalker are nowhere to be able to dodge grave hate. Stifling the CIP trigger of RIP is not the best move but at least, you could keep a tarmo with a decent size...


I don't want to translate everything but when someone said that the sideboard is ready to face this kind of match up (Liliana of the Veil / Disfigure) and since TNN the match up is batter than before, I have some doubts.

But I like TA and I think that with GP Strasbourg / BOM Paris / GP DC, we'll probably see more D&T than before so I really would like to improve the match up :)

I'm playing in my SB against D&T

2 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Pithing Needle

and I'm thinking that it's not enough :(

[Griselpuff]

I agree, the D&T match-up is bad. In order to win, I board out all my counterspells and ponders and bring in all my removal and pray they don't have Wilt-Leaf Liege. If you can land a Plague and a Charm though, it's pretty good, as well as if they have Aether Vial and you Hymn them.

Anyways at the tournament these were my rounds:

Round 1 & 2: Byes
Round 3: ANT (2-1)
Round 4: Elves (2-1)
Round 5: UW StoneBlade (2-0)
Round 6: RUG Delver (2-0)
Round 7: ANT (2-0)
Round 8: Sneak and Show (1-2)
Round 9: RUG Delver (1-2)
Round 10: Death and Taxes (2-0)
Round 11: Maverick (2-1)
Round 12: UWR Delver (2-1)
Round 13: Manaless Dredge (2-1)
Round 14: Elves (0-2)
Round 15: Dark Bant (2-1)

[zulander]

Here's the list:

Mana: 20
2 Bayou
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Creatures: 14
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker

Spells: 26
1 Disfigure
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library

Sideboard: 15
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Disfigure
3 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Krosan Grip
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Pithing Needle
2 Spell Pierce
1 Sylvan Library

[wcm8]

I played 3 TNNs and Thoughtseize in the Grand Prix. I made Day 2 at 7-2 (zero byes going into it), but then my tournament derailed pretty quickly from there after a string of misfortunes. A friend of mine played essentially the same exact deck in a side event on Sunday and finished 7-1 there.

I think Dan and the Hatfields (and Bob Huang) helped prove that Tombstalker with Hymns still makes for a very competitive deck, but at the same time I wouldn't entirely discount TNN and/or Thoughtseize from being an option. They were definitely great against all my opponents that were playing Swords to Plowshares. That said, it's true that Team America does not *abuse* TNN's capabilities in the same way a deck running Stoneforge Mystic can.

I think we can wait and see where the meta heads now that every netdecker out there will likely be playing Grand Prix lists in the next few months. I think 2-3 Golgari Charm in the sideboard should be a definite inclusion.

[Griselpuff]

Yeah, our thought process was that Tombstalker (we call him Wombstalker) don't care about TNN, and Golgari Charm also does double duty in killing RIP. I certainly think "Nemeseize" is viable, as proven by Pierre Sommen, but I currently prefer "Hymnstalker" due to the number of free wins you get from turn 1 DRS, turn 2 Hymn + Waste/Daze/Delver.

[infiniteJ]

Yeah, our thought process was that Tombstalker (we call him Wombstalker) don't care about TNN, and Golgari Charm also does double duty in killing RIP. I certainly think "Nemeseize" is viable, as proven by Pierre Sommen, but I currently prefer "Hymnstalker" due to the number of free wins you get from turn 1 DRS, turn 2 Hymn + Waste/Daze/Delver.

I really liked how tnn made the deck more resilient to gy hate, but it's much worse vs combo than stalker.

As to dnt, with tnn, the matchup felt positive. I think I won 6 straight preboard...so we didn't even test much post board. Unlike rug, we are slightly more resilient to their land destruction plan, Thalia never felt like a big issue and I mostly left her in play. Between thoughtsieze and abrupt decay, their equipment plan is invalid. The biggest issue is their flyers. Force their t1 plays if possible and then later force their swords. I found scenarios where you can decay an early vial and attack their mana profitable as their 1 for 1 guys just don't matchup in size to goyf and co. A turn 1 delver or t2 nemesis w any other interaction is very hard for them to beat. They can win race scenarios vs many unfair things, but not without equipment.

[BennBeckmann]

So Team Curio had 6 people playing Tombstalker TA, and of the 6, Dan got 9th, I got 16th, Alix cashed, James day 2'd.

66% Day 2, 50% cashed.

Deck is stupid good. :laugh:

Also, Dan losing out to Sam Black on .1% breakers was some bullshit given Dan had 0 byes and Sam had 3. Eff pros.

Yay, congrats on your results, I'm glad to see the deck performing well!

I'm curious about the Stifles in your list, how where they and in which Matchups did you bring them in?

[Griselpuff]

They were really good in testing. I liked them vs. Shardless BUG/Jund. If you Disfigure their DRS and Stifle a land, both decks are too clunky to play magic with our curve. But, I never faced those two decks and only used it vs. combo, where it is okay, but not stellar. They are surprisingly not good vs. TrueBlade, where I prefer to just have a lot of removal and tempo them out that way since they're not running Lingering Souls any more. That is actually better for us, because Souls + Snapcaster was much harder to beat than just RIP.

[lavafrogg]

They were really good in testing. I liked them vs. Shardless BUG/Jund. If you Disfigure their DRS and Stifle a land, both decks are too clunky to play magic with our curve. But, I never faced those two decks and only used it vs. combo, where it is okay, but not stellar. They are surprisingly not good vs. TrueBlade, where I prefer to just have a lot of removal and tempo them out that way since they're not running Lingering Souls any more. That is actually better for us, because Souls + Snapcaster was much harder to beat than just RIP.

What happened to Dan just running sinkhole in the board?

[Neffy]

In a BUG deck like Daniel's, what would you sideboard out against death and taxes?
Force and daze? Cant really see what else we want to dismiss?
Playing jund i have been adviced to go control against D&T and side out Goyfs (as RIP goes in). Not sure about this here though..

[BennBeckmann]

In a BUG deck like Daniel's, what would you sideboard out against death and taxes?
Force and daze? Cant really see what else we want to dismiss?
Playing jund i have been adviced to go control against D&T and side out Goyfs (as RIP goes in). Not sure about this here though..

I think I'd take out Goyfs and Shamans and go for the Delver Plan. Goyfs won't reach anything with all their tricks and Shamans are shut down by RIP or Revoker. Turn one Delver with counters for their removal is our best shot in Match.

[Griselpuff]

There are two ways of winning the match-up: tempoing them out, or playing a control role. Personally, I feel like tempoing them out to be quite difficult (especially without DRS and Goyf), although it is the route Dan prefers. He would never side out creatures though.

I board out my counterspells and bring in Golgari Charm effects and cheap removal, and hope to overwhelm their Mother of Runes and establish a Liliana or Sylvan/Hymn to get ahead. I've found the strategy to work quite effectively, unless they get out Wilt-Leaf Liege in which case it can be quite rough. This is the advice I was given by a longtime D&T player and it has been working for me. It means you will need to devote 8+ slots in your sb to removal though (which is fine since removal is so good vs. all the fair decks).

[kingsey]

Just picked up 3 TNN for 100 bucks. Thinking i'm going to replace tombstalker in my list.

Is it me or is this guy really starting to heat up

[lavafrogg]

I'm unimpressed with nemisis in this deck. We already have better options to attack with and if he is being held back on defense than we most likely lost or a goyf would, usually, have done the job just as well. He cost three which is almost uncastable in most games. I like to cast multiple spells a turn and leave mana up for brainstorms/decays/spell pierce/deathrite activations and casting 3cc creatures is not a part of that play.

Also UU is a pain in the dick when I want BB as well.

[KobeBryan]

Just picked up 3 TNN for 100 bucks. Thinking i'm going to replace tombstalker in my list.

Is it me or is this guy really starting to heat up

its you.

This deck needs so much BB and now you are adding more UU

[kingsey]

In a deck that plays no basics and 4 underground seas its tough to get uu or bb?

[lavafrogg]

When you also want G available for decays and goyfs it is… and we also play 4 wastelands. In a format full of wastelands I am always looking at how I can cast all of the spells in my hand and the hymn that I might draw next turn. With UU you would ideally like to leave up at least U to spell pierce/stifle/spell snare/brainstorm during their turn and not just tap out to cast a "vanilla" beater. Vendillion Clique can at least be cast EoT and is not useless against combo decks IMHO clique is the better card if you want a 3cc evasion dude.

On a separate note I played bug with snap casters and the full set of spell pierces tonight against MUD and Reanimator. I never felt behind and only dropped a couple games on the night, if we would have boarded I think I would have been even further ahead. I played:

4 delver
4 deathrite
4 tarmogoyf
3 snapcaster

4 abrupt decay
4 brainstorm
4 hymn
4 ponder
4 force of will
4 spell pierce

1 lilliana
1 sylvan library

19 lands

The deck was a blast to play all night long and I always had options to advance my game state. On several occasions I was able to live the dream and flashback a hymn with a snapcaster, it seems to be way to hard for decks to recover front that.

I hope to be able to play on Sunday.

Thoughts?

[kingsey]

Along with 4 DRS too right?

I'm not personally vested in TNN working in this shell, but I'd rather not write off actual testing because it has UU in the cost. :smile:

[lavafrogg]

It could easily be done while dropping hymns for 1cc discard but at that point you are most likely just better off playing death blade and suiting up the nemesis like everyone else.

And it costs 3!!! Tombstalker cost 2 that's why we play it!

[kingsey]

I guess what i'm not understanding is why we have to drop hymn

Turn 1 DRS
Turn 2 Hymn and leave 1 mana up for eot brainstorm or stifle or spell pierce or wasteland them (Pick your favorite )
Turn 3 now tap those seas for U not B and drop TNN with daze/fow back up.

I think where I'm attracted to TNN is the complete not giving a shit about Rest in peace.


*ninja!
Stalker does cost "2" but at the same time he can hurt your goyf already on board, or take your DRS feet out from under him. He also eats STP like a boss, TNN does not.

[lavafrogg]

You can list all of the hands you want but you are still stressing your mana base by needing UU. I am always strapped for mana with bug and your mana draws are never perfect.

[KobeBryan]

I guess what i'm not understanding is why we have to drop hymn

Turn 1 DRS
Turn 2 Hymn and leave 1 mana up for eot brainstorm or stifle or spell pierce or wasteland them (Pick your favorite )
Turn 3 now tap those seas for U not B and drop TNN with daze/fow back up.

I think where I'm attracted to TNN is the complete not giving a shit about Rest in peace.


*ninja!
Stalker does cost "2" but at the same time he can hurt your goyf already on board, or take your DRS feet out from under him. He also eats STP like a boss, TNN does not.

Tell us how it goes after extensive playtesting.

Besides, golgari charm is one of our best sideboard cards. Its going to kill your own TNN that you spent 3 mana on.

[Neffy]

Im in the belief that Tombstalker is a good card for us atm, especially against DT etc, but if we run DRS, Goyf and stalker, Rest in Peace is a pain. How do you play if you know it is coming in after Game 1?

Keep abrupt decays back for it? Or keeping the counters for it? Do you side out some graveyard-reliant dudes?

[Griselpuff]

Play 4 Decays, 3 Charms and 1 Grip. RIP won't stick around for long. I also tend to board out at least 1 Tombstalker.

[lavafrogg]

Does anyone play snapcasters in their lists?

[Fowler]

I test the thread all this month, and Im writting a primer for a web in my country right now (In spanish, sry, but the cards and decks are in english. I will post the article here, for show the keys to sb against each tier)

Im pretty sure and comfortable about this 75;

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [A] Tropical Island
4 [A] Underground Sea
1 [A] Bayou

// Creatures
4 [ISD] Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
3 [C13] True-Name Nemesis
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [NPH] Dismember
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [NPH] Dismember
SB: 2 [ZEN] Disfigure
SB: 1 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [RTR] Golgari Charm
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
SB: 1 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce

TNN is better than Stalker by far imo. Is the best weapon in control/aggro-control decks that I have ever seen. This deck is made for be proactive, and beat fast in the begining of game. For finish the final lives or put the game in stand by when are losing (specially stopping a Stoneforge), this 3/1 is gorgeous. I have the doubt of cut the Dismember and play the fourth TNN, but looks bad against decks with mana denial, and currently I preffer the 5Th removal card to win the DRS war. Obv, Dismember > Disfigure. You can kill Tarmos, priceless.

Regards

[Neffy]

Sadly running 3x golgari charm loses its potential when it takes out your own TNN.
Also i would say Disfigure is so much better than Dismember in the current meta with DT and creature decks. We have decay for goyfs, and Disfigure wins goyf any day.
I played the Hymnstalker version yesterday and it was soo much fun and soo much good to go turn 1 DRS, Turn 2 hymn with daze back up and then waste. Tombstalker was mean also! people dont expect him! If he sees more play (i met him in a Grixis deck) Dismember might be higher on my wish list. but for know i go 1 Disfigure main and two board. It won me the mirror which was a Nemeseize version.

[Fowler]

Sadly running 3x golgari charm loses its potential when it takes out your own TNN.
Also i would say Disfigure is so much better than Dismember in the current meta with DT and creature decks. We have decay for goyfs, and Disfigure wins goyf any day.
I played the Hymnstalker version yesterday and it was soo much fun and soo much good to go turn 1 DRS, Turn 2 hymn with daze back up and then waste. Tombstalker was mean also! people dont expect him! If he sees more play (i met him in a Grixis deck) Dismember might be higher on my wish list. but for know i go 1 Disfigure main and two board. It won me the mirror which was a Nemeseize version.

Disagree;

We run with charms, but is more important have the 3/1 agaisnt fair decks. When add charms, we are playing reactive; against elves, GW and Death & Taxes. The gameplan is make a 2x1 or 3x1, for take then the advantage. If we run with Stalkers, DRS and Goyfs, Rest in Peace is a disaster. The key for me is that Stalker is better against combo than 3/1, not the charm argument.

In other orther of things, the meta is the reason to play Dismember. Zoo no exist, there arent aggro decks, and take 2 or 4 dam for cast Dismember is marginal. Dismember is the best removal against fair decks again (Tarmos and KotR), and eventualy, can kill threads like Magus of the Moon, Lodestone Golem, Paiter, Serra Avenger, or Tombastalker :P

Sry about my english :cry:

[alastair]

In other orther of things, the meta is the reason to play Dismember. Zoo no exist, there arent aggro decks, and take 2 or 4 dam for cast Dismember is marginal. Dismember is the best removal against fair decks again (Tarmos and KotR), and eventualy, can kill threads like Magus of the Moon, Lodestone Golem, Paiter, Serra Avenger, or Tombastalker :

While it costs mana I have found Toxic Deluge to be excellent. 4 life is comparable to Snuff Out / Dismember, but it wreaks Canadian Thresh, Elves, Jund, Blade (insert shade)..... etc. There are a lot of TNN, Moongoose, Germ, and Geist: 5 in the air after wiping all x/4's gets you there pretty quick. Its an expensive solution to Emrakul or reanimated targeted, but sometimes needs must.

[Fowler]

While it costs mana I have found Toxic Deluge to be excellent. 4 life is comparable to Snuff Out / Dismember, but it wreaks Canadian Thresh, Elves, Jund, Blade (insert shade)..... etc. There are a lot of TNN, Moongoose, Germ, and Geist: 5 in the air after wiping all x/4's gets you there pretty quick. Its an expensive solution to Emrakul or reanimated targeted, but sometimes needs must.

The idea is that BUG delver take the initiative. You need put something in the board. When cast a Charm, probably you have a cc1 in the battlefield. I dont like Deluge in this deck for this reason...

I side Charms against ANT too (EtW and Xantid Swarm), destroy enchantments... and is instant. Elver is a tier and a very good and fast deck. For run with sorceries, I preffer Marsh Casualties.

[Neffy]

I agree that charm is very good, and im playing 2 atm, enxt to 1-2 massacre (which i am swapping to toxic, or maybe a 1-1 split).

My problem is that because of TNNs arrival and seemingly OP'ness, players are packing so much sweep effect: charms, zealous, toxic, massacre and other kinds of removal for exactly this guy - so in my eyes it will rarely stick for long. Not to mention discard and counter (but lets disregard this at these are always issues).

I think stalker is nice as the only cards taking him out are Lilly (if you have no other creatures), big sweepers (supreme verdict, maybe damnation, terminus) and sword+dismember (of the most common seen removals).
People are packing so much -1/-1 or -2/-2 that i think stalker is the way to go atm :)

[wcm8]

Based on my Grand Prix experiences, and also based on some guessing as to where the format's headed:
-I think Hymn to Tourach is the superior choice over Thoughtseize in this deck.
-Tombstalker is a superior choice over True-Name Nemesis. Targeted removal be damned, this deck simply doesn't abuse TNN in the way a Stoneforge deck does. If we feel the need to go towards playing Shroud creatures, Nimble Mongoose should be a consideration before we resort to a 3cmc beater. Alternatively, Vendilion Clique or Snapcaster Mage at least do something against combo.
-3 Golgari Charms for SURE in the sideboard. Such an excellent card to be playing at the moment.

I think Dan's GP list is close to perfection, although I could see fitting some number of Lili's and/or Thoughtseize into the main (to go along with the Hymns). Or perhaps just Thoughtseize over Spell Pierce in the sideboard.

I sideboarded Liliana in in literally EVERY matchup. I think we can play her without much trouble.

[lavafrogg]

Based on my Grand Prix experiences, and also based on some guessing as to where the format's headed:
-I think Hymn to Tourach is the superior choice over Thoughtseize in this deck.
-Tombstalker is a superior choice over True-Name Nemesis. Targeted removal be damned, this deck simply doesn't abuse TNN in the way a Stoneforge deck does. If we feel the need to go towards playing Shroud creatures, Nimble Mongoose should be a consideration before we resort to a 3cmc beater. Alternatively, Vendilion Clique or Snapcaster Mage at least do something against combo.
-3 Golgari Charms for SURE in the sideboard. Such an excellent card to be playing at the moment.

I think Dan's GP list is close to perfection, although I could see fitting some number of Lili's and/or Thoughtseize into the main (to go along with the Hymns). Or perhaps just Thoughtseize over Spell Pierce in the sideboard.

I sideboarded Liliana in in literally EVERY matchup. I think we can play her without much trouble.

I agree with everything here, TNN was not made for us.

[BennBeckmann]

Based on my Grand Prix experiences, and also based on some guessing as to where the format's headed:
-I think Hymn to Tourach is the superior choice over Thoughtseize in this deck.
-Tombstalker is a superior choice over True-Name Nemesis. Targeted removal be damned, this deck simply doesn't abuse TNN in the way a Stoneforge deck does. If we feel the need to go towards playing Shroud creatures, Nimble Mongoose should be a consideration before we resort to a 3cmc beater. Alternatively, Vendilion Clique or Snapcaster Mage at least do something against combo.
-3 Golgari Charms for SURE in the sideboard. Such an excellent card to be playing at the moment.

I think Dan's GP list is close to perfection, although I could see fitting some number of Lili's and/or Thoughtseize into the main (to go along with the Hymns). Or perhaps just Thoughtseize over Spell Pierce in the sideboard.

I sideboarded Liliana in in literally EVERY matchup. I think we can play her without much trouble.

I agree, too. I played Dan's list yesterday evening and it's been a while since I played Sylvan Library main and damn, this thing is soo good! As is the rest of the deck. I wouldn't leave home without Thoughtseize in my sideboard, though, as Storm is more popular over here in Europe.

To summarize my impressions: We're still ahead vs RUG, any kind of Combo and midrangey BUG-lists. I'm also sure that we're in favor against the TNN-TA Version (haven't tested it, though) as we should just race them.
So with Nemesis gaining popularity, two things will happen: Fast Combo gets more popular (as already witnessed at BOM)- good Matchup, good for us. People start hating Nemesis and thus might decrease their Gravehate- good for us, too. People start playing Nemesis and we not only already have the best Solution (Golgari Charm) available, we also gained a very good Option ourselves to help out against UW and Jund, for example.
About the Disfigure-Dismember issue: I prefer Dismember Main because once you have reached a gamestate where the Lifeloss matters that much, you're generally able to pay for it with Mana anyway.
Really, this deck is so strong and adding Nemesis in order to avoid Gravehate is not an Argument for me. Our Strategy is effective and effective Strategies are being hated- deal with it! That's not a reason to abandon the strategy (and with Strategy I mean Tombstalker- the most strategic card ever ;)).

[Fowler]

I agree, too. I played Dan's list yesterday evening and it's been a while since I played Sylvan Library main and damn, this thing is soo good! As is the rest of the deck. I wouldn't leave home without Thoughtseize in my sideboard, though, as Storm is more popular over here in Europe.

To summarize my impressions: We're still ahead vs RUG, any kind of Combo and midrangey BUG-lists. I'm also sure that we're in favor against the TNN-TA Version (haven't tested it, though) as we should just race them.
So with Nemesis gaining popularity, two things will happen: Fast Combo gets more popular (as already witnessed at BOM)- good Matchup, good for us. People start hating Nemesis and thus might decrease their Gravehate- good for us, too. People start playing Nemesis and we not only already have the best Solution (Golgari Charm) available, we also gained a very good Option ourselves to help out against UW and Jund, for example.
About the Disfigure-Dismember issue: I prefer Dismember Main because once you have reached a gamestate where the Lifeloss matters that much, you're generally able to pay for it with Mana anyway.
Really, this deck is so strong and adding Nemesis in order to avoid Gravehate is not an Argument for me. Our Strategy is effective and effective Strategies are being hated- deal with it! That's not a reason to abandon the strategy (and with Strategy I mean Tombstalker- the most strategic card ever ;)).

and what is ur argument? You dont test the 3/1 , you are result-oriented.

[deviant]

I fail to see the point of running TNN in this shell.
Bant has exalted and sfm to take advantage of him.
Esperblade has jace and sfm to take advantage of him.
Uwr delver has no better options and sfm to take advantage of him.
Merfolk.. Has not much relevance atm. Also their 3-drops are not very good anyways. I've made life miserable to combo players before running vendilion in the deck before..

We have.. Uh.. We have..
Hmm..
We are soft to RiP, wanting either ways to handle the card (seize/pierce) or a way to sidestep it.
I guess TNN accomplishes that, but I'd rather jam a walker post-board against most white decks anyway, and rely on delvers and sb vendilions/jittes to get there than just flat out accept being the worst TNN deck there is.
I'd rather play deluges and g.charms and level the real TNN decks than tryto be a worse one sticking to these colors.

[lavafrogg]

What is our plan against Jund/Shardless/Rock type decks? I have half a mind to bring in haves and half a mind to bring in sinkholes....

[BennBeckmann]

and what is ur argument? You dont test the 3/1 , you are result-oriented.

My argument is that our evasive finisher has 2 more power and costs 1 less.

Edit: You might have misunderstood me there. I have indeed tested the Nemesis, but I just haven't tested this particular "Mirror".

[Fowler]

My argument is that our evasive finisher has 2 more power and costs 1 less.
This is false. CC 8. You may play TNN in second turn, and stalker? Power 3, OK, but os indestructible with hexproof... Test it, then talk.

[Neffy]

-3 Golgari Charms for SURE in the sideboard. Such an excellent card to be playing at the moment.


You say 3, and i like it, but wouldnt it be nice with either massacre or deluge for DT? They dont use mangara anymore, so their SFM, batterskull, crusader, serra avenger still survives. -2/-2 helps a lot here i would say. Deluge can be used solid against elves, but costs 3 + X life more.. Havent got time to test it much though.

[Fowler]

You say 3, and i like it, but wouldnt it be nice with either massacre or deluge for DT? They dont use mangara anymore, so their SFM, batterskull, crusader, serra avenger still survives. -2/-2 helps a lot here i would say. Deluge can be used solid against elves, but costs 3 + X life more.. Havent got time to test it much though.

instant speed is the correct option for vials, and -1/-1 kill the key cards; mother of runes, thalia, and the creatures that u cannot block like mindcensors or flickerwisp. Also kills Revokers.

charm is not the definitive card against Death and Taxes, is a good tool for play against Elves, Bant, Goblins... and other marginal situations like ANT, Enchantress, RIP...

I think that Marsh Casualties > Toxic Deluge, reading your post. You will kill all guys, only Avenger survives. But is sorcery...

[Neffy]

So, against Death and Taxes.
Would you side in liliana? Im fearing it will lead to terrible situations where the wilt-leaf liege gets online (i side out hymn too) and also blanks our golgari charms.
It however does answer mothers and is almost the only answer to crusader.

[lavafrogg]

Has anyone tried black suns zenith as sweeper of choice? You would heve to bring in jace and Lilliana as finishers but cantrips would allow reliable re casting and deathrite can fire off the first zenith as early as turn two.

[lavafrogg]

I just took second in a nine man tourney with my list of 3 snapcasters 4 spell pierce. I lost to affinity and beat the crap out of combo, like I should...

Against affinity I was land screwed game one and drew poorly/died to double champions as the game went long. I didn't feel afraid or anything I just needed to get some goyfs on the board and wreck. I really would have liked toxic deluge in the board and I am considering trading my golgari charms for the deluge as it can destroy creature decks with a passion. With the deluges I am also thinking about putting a jace in the board so deluge>jace can be a thing.

New List from SCG:

Creatures (14)

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker

Planeswalkers (1)
1 Liliana of the Veil

Lands (20)
2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Spells (25)
1 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder

Sideboard(15)
1 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Disfigure
3 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
3 Spell Pierce
1 Submerge
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Creeping Tar Pit

[Dragonslayer_90]

So I took Team America to the LGS I usually play legacy at. We had four rounds in which I went 2-1-1. I faced UB Reanimator and Belcher first two rounds and won those. I got my loss againt BUG Control Round 3, and got a draw against UW Delver Round 4.

Some questions for fellow Team players:

1. What should be my postboard gameplan against the following decks: Combo Elves and BUG Control (NOT Shardless but Pure BUG Control). Note: I'm playing a rather stock list that's mostly close to recent GP lists.

2. What's the argument for playing Hymn over thoughtseize? I've only been playing this deck for a month or so, but Hymn seems to be rather underwhelming at times and is making me consider swapping it out for thoughtseize.

[alastair]

I lost in the finals of a local 20+ person top eight at the weekend. I’ve ditched Hymn and Deathrite in favour of Sinkhole and Stifle; and a single Decay for a Toxic Deluge. I lost in the second round to Omnitell, and again in the final to the same player/deck. I beat DnT, Canadian Thresh, Esper Stoneforge/TNN, Elves + one other ??, with an intentional ID to Zoo.

Whilst the SB may need help against Omnitell / SnT, I fear it is the pilot who is at fault.

I didn’t miss Deathrite all weekend, ok extra mana is nice, but a cool squire is still a squire. I missed Hymn, but hand disruption does not play well with Stifle and Sinkhole. Stalker was standout, but keeping people fearful of 3 and 4 drops through Stifle, Sinkhole, and Daze was priceless. SB Charm, Deluge and Krosan Grip were excellent.

[Griselpuff]

Ditching DRS makes it a completely different deck from the TA of today, but I can definitely see a list that relies on Tarmogoyf/Tombstalker/Toxic Deluge and mana denial as interesting. The problem would be opposing DRS but I suppose you can play a bunch of spot removal or even Innocent Blood.

Anyways, I was the person who got 9th in Providence, so I'll be writing a tournament report for GP DC and SCG Providence that I will post in the Format/Article Discussion when it comes out. Stay tuned!

[BennBeckmann]

Caleb Durward has once proposed a list containing Deluge main here: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-commander-2013-set-review/

Congrats again on your finish, Bob, keep going ;)

[24601]

I want to know the sideplan of this deck.Please teach me.

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpwas13/day2

Denis Ulanov—Team America
GP Washington D.C. Day 1 Undefeated

Main Deck
60 cards

2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
20 lands

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
15 creatures

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 Disfigure
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
25 other spells

Sideboard
1 Disfigure
1 Dismember
2 Engineered Plague
1 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Life from the Loam
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Sinkhole
2 Spell Pierce
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique

[Neffy]

I went to a 138man tournament sunday and went 17th (prizes for top16 :(..) with this deck. I lost to random homebrew monoblack, which i shouldnt, and D&T.
I won against BG nic fit, ANT, RUC (kiln fiend?!), miracles (draw, but he concedes).

2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Brainstorm
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Ponder
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Sylvan Library
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Dismember
4 Force of Will
2 Tombstalker

2 Disfigure
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
3 Golgari Charm
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Vendilion Clique

It worked very well and seemed consistent. I played the mirror, where afterwards he told me he ran 19 lands (and lilianas).
Do you think cutting to 19 lands is an option, when you run BB cards?
Tombstalker is a beast, and I would not replace him with TNN.

I also went 5 of a 21 man tourny last night for prizes. Since i've been wondering if i should cut the library and go 1 clique main. Also considering 1 liliana mainboard instead. What do you use in flex slots?

[lavafrogg]

I have cut to 19 lands with Lillianas due to deathrite shaman and the power of cantrips. I am on a Lilliana over the 1 of removal slot and currently I am least impressed with the sylvan library, and I know that card is bonkers.

Against Death and Taxes and random aggro decks, we need to pick a sweeper to put in the board, either deluge or deed seem like the best choices… the pure race idea is pretty dangerous these days with DnT playing so many flyers and finally:

Has anyone cut daze for the full set of pierces? There are so many good spell pierce targets right now but you become softer to the aforementioned aggro decks that can almost carelessly cast spells on turn one and two… anytime after that hymn and friends have their say in what resolves.

[Neffy]

Im running 3 golgari charms and it seems it is getting used a lot atm. It takes care of a lot of DT creatures, but also elves, pyromancer decks, etc.

I would not cut daze as we are playing a tempo deck and simple cant let go of such an important piece of the puzzle!

[Griselpuff]

http://www.channelfireball.com/home/team-america-in-dc-top-16/

Hey all! Here's my report.

[Myelectronicdays]

fantastic writeup. Your showing with this list has totally made me scramble to throw this deck together. I love how it plays.

[lavafrogg]

I keep reading the report. It is exactly the type of thing that this thread needed. So good.

[BeTeP]

About the report.
In matchup vs ANT/TES it is a bad idea not to sideboard golgari charm and keep abrupt decay. They can go in goblin tokens and if you play without charm, there is no chance to win. Also charm kills insect and carpet the way decay do.
Hymn is good vs elves in my testing, maybe you should keep it.
I have also questions: why do you need to side out only 2 FOW vs threshhold? And why side out bayo vs UW blade? Maybe it is a good plan to side in tar pit to destroy opposing jases?

[Griselpuff]

I would bring in Charms vs. TES for sure, but I prefer Abrupt Decay against ANT. They won't typically side into EtW against us, and Abrupt Decay can hit LEDs that they play out to avoid Hymn to Tourach. If you see EtW, switch the Decays for Charms.

I like Hymn vs. Elves, but I dislike Daze, and we need a higher blue count for FoW. Hymn can be good to useless vs. them, whereas Spell Pierce is always decent as we're killing enough of their guys to keep it live, and their primary plan of attack is NO for Proggy.

Vs. RUG, I like to leave in two FoW, especially on the draw because we lose the games where we don't get to play magic and FoW lets us get through Stifles etc.

Vs. Blade, yes, the Tar Pit is coming in, it was a mistake in the article.

[BeTeP]

Ok, thank you. Interesting note about pitches to FOW.

[lavafrogg]

Why stifle over sinkhole against the mid range durdle decks like jund/shardless?

[wcm8]

Why stifle over sinkhole against the mid range durdle decks like jund/shardless?

These decks run DRS, which offsets the power of a 2-mana stone rain. Stifle only costs 1 mana, and also has other targets (Liliana, Pernicious Deed, Ancestral Visions, Cascade triggers, etc.)

[Griselpuff]

Everything wcm8 said. I'd add Terminus to the list. Plus Sinkhole is quite bad vs. DRS as they aren't really set back too much. Stifle is also really really good when it's unexpected and a lot worse when people play around it.

[lavafrogg]

Everything wcm8 said. I'd add Terminus to the list. Plus Sinkhole is quite bad vs. DRS as they aren't really set back too much. Stifle is also really really good when it's unexpected and a lot worse when people play around it.

I don't know where I read it but the quote was "kill the DRS and stifle a land....blah blah win the game"

[Final Fortune]

Yeah this is fast becoming my favorite aggro-control deck in the format right now, my only criticism is that Clique comes in so often that you may want to MD it over something else. I'm also not a huge fan of the Creeping Tarpit, you may as well board in a True Name Nemesis if you want a "dedicated" anti-control card.

[Griselpuff]

I've considered Clique MD, but the main reason for its inclusion in the SB is I like to board out Tombstalker vs. RIP decks. If TrueBlade gets even bigger in the format, I may move it to the MD. I've also considered TNN in the sb, but many decks will pack answers to it and it doesn't go well with our own Golgari Charms. However, I suppose the same argument can be made for Vendilion Clique and I've liked that fine. Creeping Tar Pit is also there just as another land against tempo decks, but I suppose TNN is also good in those match-ups. Definitely merits testing.

[Final Fortune]

I've considered Clique MD, but the main reason for its inclusion in the SB is I like to board out Tombstalker vs. RIP decks. If TrueBlade gets even bigger in the format, I may move it to the MD. I've also considered TNN in the sb, but many decks will pack answers to it and it doesn't go well with our own Golgari Charms. However, I suppose the same argument can be made for Vendilion Clique and I've liked that fine. Creeping Tar Pit is also there just as another land against tempo decks, but I suppose TNN is also good in those match-ups. Definitely merits testing.

You'd never bother to SB in TNN vs any deck you'd SB in Golgari Charm tho', it's pretty much a dedicated "FU" vs Miracles, RUG and maybe Shardless if they didn't expect it.

I just think Clique is consistenstly good vs pretty much everything, where Liliana or the Library can be either really hit or miss.

[lavafrogg]

I think clique/Lilliana is just better in the "to give control players fits" sideboard slot due to them being better against mom interactive opponents. We already have tombstalker as an evasive hard to kill monster, and he hits harder and cost 1 less!

[Neffy]

When talking SB, do you run any GY hate? Dan ran the singleton grafdigger, and im trying the same, not sure about it though. Is one enough? There isnt that much reanimator at the moment so its mainly against Past in flames/GSZ?

[lavafrogg]

I am on the surgical extraction plan as taking show and tell out of the equation is a really big deal. I have also used it to take a rug players bolt which gave my delvers free reign of the skies.

The fact that it cost nothing is a big deal against tin fins/reanimator/dredge. The one cage is just savage of you find room for it, I have been happy with hymn/charm/counters against elves though.

edit: I haven't lost to a combo deck in a few weeks, this seems like the perfect deck for the current meta.

[Neffy]

I am on the surgical extraction plan as taking show and tell out of the equation is a really big deal. I have also used it to take a rug players bolt which gave my delvers free reign of the skies.

The fact that it cost nothing is a big deal against tin fins/reanimator/dredge. The one cage is just savage of you find room for it, I have been happy with hymn/charm/counters against elves though.

edit: I haven't lost to a combo deck in a few weeks, this seems like the perfect deck for the current meta.

How many do you run? I used to go with 3, but cut them and tried the singleton Grafdigger. Yesterday i met elves, and it was insane G2 - taking care of GSZ and natural order. 7-1'ing with Golgari Charm is nice too :cool:

[lavafrogg]

How many do you run? I used to go with 3, but cut them and tried the singleton Grafdigger. Yesterday i met elves, and it was insane G2 - taking care of GSZ and natural order. 7-1'ing with Golgari Charm is nice too :cool:

I have 3 spots for grave hate so I have been trying the 2/1 extraction cage split right now and you can find the cage when you need to. If I thought elves was going to be a stronger % of the field I would play 2/2 and drop a Lilliana from the board but right now I bring in removal, charms and cages to keep the little pointy eared bastards at bay.

[BeTeP]

Not too long ago there were sinkholes in SB. Nowadays they are gone. What do you think about it? It is because miracles is no more actual matchup or else?

[lavafrogg]

Not too long ago there were sinkholes in SB. Nowadays they are gone. What do you think about it? It is because miracles is no more actual matchup or else?

I asked this question a week or so ago and received a few messages about the answer:

1. If you want to play the land destruction strategy against slower decks than stifle accomplishes this and also has merit against DnT and combo decks making it a better card. With the rise of the aforementioned DnT and combo this is a god idea.

2. SFM cost 2 and 2 to vial in the equipment and keeping people off of 2 mana is much harder than keeping someone off of 3-4. In addition to the fact that they can just draw more lands and too you.

[blindspotxxx]

Addicted to this deck! Hymn with Daze really wins too many games :) Stifle from the sideboard is sweet enabling me to beat Shardless BUG by hitting their Ancestral Vision. Tombstalker is so sexy.

[lavafrogg]

Shardless is just so durdly, it doesn't really do anything for so long.

[Kl'rt]

Is Burn one of those matches where you don't even bother preparing for because it's too much of an uphill battle? Or are there cards that actually help? Has anyone used things like Chill or Kitchen Finks against Burn with success? Anything else that can be considered? Maybe a green life gain spell of some kind?

[SirTylerGalt]

Is Burn one of those matches where you don't even bother preparing for because it's too much of an uphill battle? Or are there cards that actually help? Has anyone used things like Chill or Kitchen Finks against Burn with success? Anything else that can be considered? Maybe a green life gain spell of some kind?

Jacob Wilson plays a singleton Zuran Orb in RUG Delver for the burn matchup: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=59977

"Its for Price of Progress. I hate losing to mono red and I think its one of the best options so I dont mind having 1 narrow sideboard card."

(from the comments at the bottom of http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/feature-article-grand-prix-strasbourg-report-2nd/ )

I think it would also work in Team America :)

[Jay_Gatz]

It seems way too narrow whereas finks and chill have other applications

[Griselpuff]

My plan against Burn: Hymn to Tourach or win the first few rounds.

[wcm8]

Hymn + Tarmogoyf + DRS + (Spell Pierce + Disfigure from the Board) = dead Burn opponents. I don't tend to find this matchup that bad, to be honest. Don't overextend with your lands. Keep your own Wastelands ready to mitigate Price of Progress.

Mono Red Painter, now there's an auto-loss.

[Griselpuff]

Dan can beat it. XD

I'm 1-1 myself. I think the match-up is bad, but I think that deck is terrible so when it comes up, you can still win when they Blood Moon into a Daze etc. Post-board if you have a DRS, just leave it and a land untapped and your decays/charms/disfigures should take care of their moon effects.

[lavafrogg]

Dan can beat it. XD

I'm 1-1 myself. I think the match-up is bad, but I think that deck is terrible so when it comes up, you can still win when they Blood Moon into a Daze etc. Post-board if you have a DRS, just leave it and a land untapped and your decays/charms/disfigures should take care of their moon effects.

Painter has the same problem as every other non blue deck. especially the sol land decks like MUD, they are just not consistent enough. The only deck I felt could compete with a brainstorm deck in consistency was GB based with confidant and green sun's zenith to match brainstorms ability to find things. Daze, force, decay and fire off a hymn and you can usually win.

[Kap'n Cook]

Dan can beat it. XD

I'm 1-1 myself. I think the match-up is bad, but I think that deck is terrible so when it comes up, you can still win when they Blood Moon into a Daze etc. Post-board if you have a DRS, just leave it and a land untapped and your decays/charms/disfigures should take care of their moon effects.

Two total matches is enough to call the deck terrible?

[lavafrogg]

Two total matches is enough to call the deck terrible?

He is saying it is a terrible deck in general, not against BUG. In other words: the deck is not good enough to be played by a large percent of the field therefor it is not worth sideboarding for or even worrying about; if you have a painter player across from you play tight and let your opponents shitty deck beat them.

[5doorfury]

Could someone please explain why tombstalkers are a better option than a different beater like TNN? I'm new to this deck and it seems anti-synergistic with your goyfs and deathrites. Thanks in advance!!

[lavafrogg]

Could someone please explain why tombstalkers are a better option than a different beater like TNN? I'm new to this deck and it seems anti-synergistic with your goyfs and deathrites. Thanks in advance!!

Tombstalker is most likely the biggest creature in the format that isn't cheated into play. Once he is in play, he attacks over/through most flying creatures in the format and is immune to most common forms of removal. He can't be abrupt decayed and one lightning bolt does nothing. Add this to the fact that he cost 2 and ends the game in 2-3 turns and it does not matter if he plays nicely with anytging except our strategy of winning.

[Amazing Larry]

Could someone please explain why tombstalkers are a better option than a different beater like TNN? I'm new to this deck and it seems anti-synergistic with your goyfs and deathrites. Thanks in advance!!

For one thing, double black is usually easier to achieve in this deck than UU. Also this deck typically just does not care about TNN as much as other fair decks. Stalker is one of those reasons as he just flies over and is a faster clock. Also, running stalker allows you to run 3 Golgari Charms in the SB, which would be more detrimental to our game plan if we ran TNN. That being said, TNN is still an option for this archetype, perhaps in the SB, or even as a replacement for Stalker, but a few things would need to be changed around for TNN to be optimal in this deck. I really think TNN is at its best where it can be pumped/equipped, basically Stoneblade/Patriot/Bant.
As for the anti-synergy between Stalker, DRS, and Goyfs; It's not nearly as bad as it seems. I find that Stalker is at its best when topdecked in the mid-late game when your opponent typically has fewer answers for it, having spent them on removing your other threats (and of the commonly run targeted removals only Swords to Plowshares hits Stalker anyway). At this stage of the game you also typically have little trouble feeding Stalker from your graveyard.

[lavafrogg]

Specificly, nothing in our deck cares about golgari charm....

[Asthereal]

Thinking about picking up this deck. Seems quite well placed in the meta.
I could use some help though with my list, and I have some questions.
First my 75 as I have in mind so far:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker /14

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 (flex slots)

4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland /20

Side:
3-4 Disfigure
2-3 Golgari Charm
3-4 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
0-1 Grafdigger's Cage
1-2 Vendilion Clique
0-2 Liliana of the Veil /15

Sideboard is heavily dependant on what I put in the flex slots in the main deck.

Q's:
1. What should I play in the flex slots main? Thinking about Pierce and Disfigure, but Lily is also nice.
2. Doesn't this deck have rather serious problems flipping Delver? Especially if the flex slots are Liliana, we only have 24 instants/sorceries left. That seems quite low.
3. Do I really need Stifle on side? Right now I don't use them, but against a number of popular deck choices they seem quite strong.
4. In general, how would you guys fill up the sideboard? 17 cards and leaving the flex slots open is fine too. I might do a last minute switch between the flex slots and the sideboard anyway.

This deck is pretty hard to find a perfect setup for... :cool:

[Cire_dk]

Flusterstorm might be a nice SB card as suggested in an article by Carsten Kotter http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27479_Switching-It-Up.html

I am considering to cut stifle from the SB but I am still in two minds about it.

[Tourach]

Thinking about picking up this deck. Seems quite well placed in the meta.
I could use some help though with my list, and I have some questions.
First my 75 as I have in mind so far:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker /14

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 (flex slots)

4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland /20

Side:
3-4 Disfigure
2-3 Golgari Charm
3-4 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
0-1 Grafdigger's Cage
1-2 Vendilion Clique
0-2 Liliana of the Veil /15

Sideboard is heavily dependant on what I put in the flex slots in the main deck.

Q's:
1. What should I play in the flex slots main? Thinking about Pierce and Disfigure, but Lily is also nice.
2. Doesn't this deck have rather serious problems flipping Delver? Especially if the flex slots are Liliana, we only have 24 instants/sorceries left. That seems quite low.
3. Do I really need Stifle on side? Right now I don't use them, but against a number of popular deck choices they seem quite strong.
4. In general, how would you guys fill up the sideboard? 17 cards and leaving the flex slots open is fine too. I might do a last minute switch between the flex slots and the sideboard anyway.

This deck is pretty hard to find a perfect setup for... :cool:

I like your list.

To your first question: For the same reasons I don't run Stifle maindeck, I wouldn't recommend Spell Pierce maindeck in your build. Most of the time you tap out on turn two for Hymn, Goyf or - coming to a serious contender for your flex slot - Sylvan Library. I run a singleton Lily in the second spot and a Dismember for one of the fetch lands. Sometimes getting rid of Lackey, Mom or Delver on turn 1 is important.

Yes, it is harder to flip Delver for us than for Canadian Thresh. Play Deathrite Shaman first, if you have both.

For the sideboard, you might consider Engineered Plague against Goblins, Elves, Merfolk, etc... in addition to 2 Golgari Charms. I also still love Submerge.

[Dragonslayer_90]

So I posted the following question on Bob Huang's December metagame analaysis but also wanted to get other Team players input on this matter: Playing Team America, in the dark against unknown opponent, would you go down to 6 if the hand had no threat but was otherwise functional? Also, are there certain match-ups you would mulligan to a threat? I've been playing the deck like I've learned to play RUG, which is to keep hands that are functional but not ideal as long as they are keepable given knowledge of the match-up. In those situations where I don't have an early threat I trade cards with my opponent until I draw into a threat or cantrips to find a threat. That's how I've been playing Team as well.

[Myelectronicdays]

So I posted the following question on Bob Huang's December metagame analaysis but also wanted to get other Team players input on this matter: Playing Team America, in the dark against unknown opponent, would you go down to 6 if the hand had no threat but was otherwise functional? Also, are there certain match-ups you would mulligan to a threat? I've been playing the deck like I've learned to play RUG, which is to keep hands that are functional but not ideal as long as they are keepable given knowledge of the match-up. In those situations where I don't have an early threat I trade cards with my opponent until I draw into a threat or cantrips to find a threat. That's how I've been playing Team as well.

I've been curious of this as well since I am new to the deck.

[Griselpuff]

I mull one landers with no cantrips or DRS, but most other hands I keep, including threatless hands. If the hand does absolutely nothing and doesn't have cantrips, I'd mull that too.

Basically, Ponder and Brainstorm are insanely good. That's why I said I wouldn't play decks without them, with the exception of Elves and Dredge. Elves has a ton of card draw and GSZ, Dredge also effectively has a ton of card draw.

[lavafrogg]

Brainstorm/ponder also set up the delver flips on most occasions where luck is not on your side.

Flex spots- I am on 2 Lilliana 1 library with only 1 tombstalker and I have a deluge in the board to help against heavy creature decks.

I would also be much more comfortable keeping a hand with disruption and no creatures than creatures with no pressure.

[deviant]

Just came back home from winning the Finnish Legacy Champs with team america/bug delver.
There were 101 people, and 2 bug delver decks made the top8, with a friend of mine playing the exact same 75 I did managed to misplay himself out of it :(
Should have been three.

Played these 75:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker

1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder

2 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

SB:
1 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Disfigure
3 Golgari Charm
1 Maelstorm Pulse
2 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Creeping Tar Pit

And I would not change a single card.

[Cire_dk]

Deviant congratz on the great finish!!

[Dragonslayer_90]

I would also be much more comfortable keeping a hand with disruption and no creatures than creatures with no pressure.

Do you mean creatures with no disruption?

Also, congratz Deviant on winning the tournament!

[lavafrogg]

Do you mean creatures with no disruption?

Also, congratz Deviant on winning the tournament!

Yes, creatures with no disruption...:)

Grats on the Finnish!

[Neffy]

Would it be feasible to run 2 spell snare as the flex spots?
Our brothers in the HeisenbUrg threat likes them, and i see many uses for it (any tutor in ANT/TES, many elves, SFM, yada yada). It takes care of non-creature permanents that decay otherwise would have, which opens decay to focus on countering creatures. I recall the old TA ran spell snare for a while.

[deviant]

You could, but that would introduce 2 problems:
1: the gas tank. Running liliana and library as flex slots lets the deck play longer games better.
2: the sideboarding. Being able to take out the 8 md counters and run a slam 'em strategy postboard against the fair decks is imo very crucial to TA's success. This is the main reason I did not run the three stifles in the sb - they did not mesh well with what I wanted my gameplan to be postboard.

I tried everything from jaces, lilianas (up to a playset), multiple librarys, deluges, md stifles, more discard, more counters etc. Only to end up with almost identical list to Huangs gp list.
The only "tech" I liked yet did not play was ghost quarter. I suggest you try that if you have issues with shardless/mirror.

[lavafrogg]

Inquisition or maelstrom pulse would accomplish similar effects if you didn't wasn't to do the standard set up.

I don't think BUG ever wants to leave a mana open to snare on turns 1-4, and after that most 2 drops have hit the board:

[BlackStarDeceiver]

SB:
1 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Disfigure
3 Golgari Charm
1 Maelstorm Pulse
2 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Creeping Tar Pit

And I would not change a single card.

Congrats on the Finnish :D

Went 4-1 today for 3rd place (2nd had 1% better breakers, same List except 1 Krosan Grip in place of Pulse, i simply did not have one):

2-1 Deathblade
1-2 Punishing True Blade (he had a string of insane topdecks to get out of both games (3 Stp into Triple Snapcaster into Jace into SFM Skull/TNN and so on) would haave won with a tad more luck.
2-0 against UB Faerie Fish with Curfew and Strixes
2-1 against Dark Taxes, Golgari Charm is a house!
2-1 against 12Post, G1 Hymn Daze, Hymn Daze, Waste Hymn, Waste Stalker with Fow get there... G2 he simply resolves Titan, G3 is more Like G1 with me having double Delver, double Fow, Waste and Sylvan wich draws 4 extra ensuring to keep the pressure up.


I would maybe change some single spots in the side according to meta calls, maybe 1 Toxic or Massacre or Surgicals, all in all awesome Deck.

[Asthereal]

Thanks for the advice so far! :smile:
Right now, considering the advice) my contestants for the two flex slots main deck are:
Sylvan Library (nice gas tank), Liliana of the Veil (just a very good card) and Disfigure (kills the naughty dudes).

Couple of questions about the sideboard posted by Deviant:
Why the one-of Creeping Tar Pit? Do you really need that thing against controllish decks?
Is one Clique enough? If you side out both Stalkers, don't you feel threat light?
Against what do you use the one-of Pulse? And do you feel you might need one more?

[lavafrogg]

Thanks for the advice so far! :smile:
Right now, considering the advice) my contestants for the two flex slots main deck are:
Sylvan Library (nice gas tank), Liliana of the Veil (just a very good card) and Disfigure (kills the naughty dudes).

Couple of questions about the sideboard posted by Deviant:
Why the one-of Creeping Tar Pit? Do you really need that thing against controllish decks?
Is one Clique enough? If you side out both Stalkers, don't you feel threat light?
Against what do you use the one-of Pulse? And do you feel you might need one more?

Sylvan/Lilliana is the general consensus flex slot cards. I cut 1 tombstalker for another Lilliana and have the 3rd in the board for some additional help against midrange and control decks.

Creeping tar pit is for decks with land destruction, as an extra land, and as a jace killer or a creature to seal the deal when the game goes long. I still like the slot because it can swing past a nemisis.

One clique is all you want due to the casting cost, it is for combo and control and is your mid game trump card against a rebuilding combo player and a control player about to stabilize. You have plenty of cards to get you to that point in the game and could play another if you had lots of miracles in your meta.

Pulse is general any permanente hate. Bring it in against planeswalkers, enchantments, midrange anything not combo or speed based. If you need to cast more than one then you are way too far past the early game and have most likely lost the game.

[deviant]

Thanks for the advice so far! :smile:
Right now, considering the advice) my contestants for the two flex slots main deck are:
Sylvan Library (nice gas tank), Liliana of the Veil (just a very good card) and Disfigure (kills the naughty dudes).

Couple of questions about the sideboard posted by Deviant:
Why the one-of Creeping Tar Pit? Do you really need that thing against controllish decks?
Is one Clique enough? If you side out both Stalkers, don't you feel threat light?
Against what do you use the one-of Pulse? And do you feel you might need one more?

I feel like we do. The card is overperforming continuously for me. It also is one of our better options to controlling opposing jaces, and being able to go to 21 lands is really nice in f.e the mirror.

One clique has been just fine. I don't like the second as I fear that could get too clunky with the 3 charms that I feel are untouchable atm. It also is fairly low-impact and I don't like to up the curve too much postboard. I know all these sound like minor issues, but they add up and I just do not personally feel any need for it.

The pulse is obviously just kgrip from Huangs list, but I strongly dislike the card and there are not many targets for it I fear when I'm packing 4 decays and 3 charms. Just one: batterskull. And in my experience pulse answers that sufficiently, while also helping to deal with jace.
I know, I know. The king is dead, his true nemesis has dethroned him. Not everyone has gotten that memo though and we are very soft to a resolved jace from control decks.
I do not want another pulse, like I said all the numbers felt just right. Untill the meta changes at least.
It just fulfills so many roles and in more undefined metagames acts as a "safety net" without being (too) awkward ever.

edit: yeah I'm that slow at typing with my Ipad :(

[BlackStarDeceiver]

The card is overperforming continuously for me. It also is one of our better options to controlling opposing jaces, and being able to go to 21 lands is really nice in f.e the mirror.


Speaking about overperforming... Sylvan Library is so damn ridiculous against non Tendrils Combo, T1 DRS into Sylvan + X is just sick, i draw 3-4 extra cards each game where life total doesn't matter, that card is just so good.

The one Clique is fine, when you have it, it's never bad, as you only board it in when you want it, while you don't really need the card as you have so many answers.

Krosan Grip felt weird, Needle or Pulse would have been better anytime i had it.

One card i am thinking about is Toxic Deluge as a replacement for the 3rd Disfigure, mostly meta calling though, the card is amazing against Maverick and Deathblade.

[BeTeP]

I was that person who ended 4 place in Finnish champs. Played this list:

2 Tombstalker
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
2 Liliana of the veil

1 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

SB:
3 Disfigure
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Spell Pierce
1 Krosan grip
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing needle
3 Golgari charm

Played with 2 sneak and show, imperial painter, jund and lands, then 2 ID. Was undefeated before top8. In top 8 beat ant and in top4 lost to BUG still.
Maindeck is strong, tested deck over 4 month and played other versions, but now i will not toch it. Sidebord is another story. Grip is optional card, maybe will try tar pit.

[lavafrogg]

@BeTep

Grats on the finish!

Why did you not run the near mainstay one of sylvan library and instead opt for the second lilliana?

[BeTeP]

lavafrogg thanks!

I thnik that library is very strong card in TA, played with it dozen times and liked it very much, so if people play library it is good choise.
But nowadays i feel that TA needs 6 removal spells in main, you cant decay every threat, you know ;) Liliana is very optional - it is removal and discard in one shell. It is very, very good in meta. All star in UWx matches, gives some extra edge in matches versus storm decks, sneak and show, jund, DNT, threshhold. She is almost never bad. I dont wish to topdeck her only versus dredge or elves, in that matchups she is bad.

[lavafrogg]

I play 1 tombstalker 1 library 2 Lilliana with the 3rd in the board... I know hie good she is!

[KobeBryan]

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w143/bracer028/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG0218_BURST002_COVER.jpg


Wish me luck

[Griselpuff]

Marsh Flats.......?

[KobeBryan]

Marsh Flats.......?

I can't afford a delta. I got flooded strand

[lavafrogg]

Good luck in vegas! I think it will be a great meta for bug, tons of equipment to decay and combo to ruin!

[Cire_dk]

Wish me luck

Good luck.!!

I will be running almost the same list this weekend for the Dutch Championships but for SB I am considering -1 Disfigure, -1 Needle, +2 Flusterstorm
because I tend to run into storm decks quite often. Also helps my blue count after boarding.

[Grand Superior]

Best of luck, KobeBryan! List is really solid and the deck looks very well positioned. Keep a running tally of how many True-Name Nemesis you kill with postboard Golgari Charms.

[deviant]

Best of luck to both of you!

On a side note, I'd advice against taking out cards that help our closer matchups and replacing them with cards that help make our good marchups better.