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Razorwynd
01-29-2014, 08:31 PM
2 disfigures and 3 abrupt decay make no sense at all. You're reducing your chances of destroying lots of things, with something that is not so important. I would run morethan 4 decays if I could.



I think 3/2 is a perfectly reasonable split… it is what I run (with the 4th decay in the sideboard). This is also somewhat related to the Thoughtseize vs Hymn argument; the deck is just way too crowded at the 2cc slot. Disfigure and Thoughtseize help out so much. Have fun beating a turn one Mother of Rune from DnT without either.

Griselpuff
01-29-2014, 10:05 PM
Every time my opponent plays thoughtseize in TA mirror I do this "self five" thing as he just used a mana, card and 2 life to end up taking my hymn most likely. I would rather resolve probe there.
Started keeping track of my matches online. Last 50 I'm having a 72,5 win%
The deck being more known and actually represented in the online meta makes it harder to win as much as before.

That's a pretty sweet record, my win record is only at 65% :laugh:

Razorwynd
01-29-2014, 11:18 PM
Every time my opponent plays thoughtseize in TA mirror I do this "self five" thing as he just used a mana, card and 2 life to end up taking my hymn most likely. I would rather resolve probe there.
Started keeping track of my matches online. Last 50 I'm having a 72,5 win%
The deck being more known and actually represented in the online meta makes it harder to win as much as before.

Not quite sure how you get 72,5 win% out of 50, but that is certainly "self five" worthy.

Lejay
01-30-2014, 12:50 AM
Not quite sure how you get 72,5 win% out of 50, but that is certainly "self five" worthy.

98.7% of statistics from The Source are made up on the spot.

KobeBryan
01-30-2014, 01:02 AM
Its complete BS...he won a 1/4 game

Razorwynd
01-30-2014, 01:06 AM
Its complete BS...he won a 1/4 game

Is this why hymn is so good…?

deviant
01-30-2014, 01:26 AM
Not quite sure how you get 72,5 win% out of 50, but that is certainly "self five" worthy.
My bad, last 51 matches. Didn't think it was that important.
Also, if you seize me at paris, I'll promise to do this to you. (edit: if it is, in fact TA mirror)


98.7% of statistics from The Source are made up on the spot.

This is true, I actually had to use a calculator to do this on the spot.


Its complete BS...he won a 1/4 game
Are we done being dicks yet?


Is this why hymn is so good…?
No, I also win with the TNN-seize version.


That's a pretty sweet record, my win record is only at 65% :laugh:
Yeah, your are from GP days 2's etc. Mine are from modo as I said. -> not that impressive.

Thorhammer
01-30-2014, 01:35 AM
Great article on Starcitygames Bob! Loved the play by play and sideboard decisions. Thanks for laying the groundwork for others to follow.

I would love your reasoning for why Sylvan went to sideboard and upping the number of cliques and grips for less charms. Are you just not afraid of Elves?

And is Tar Pit just not good enough any more?

Griselpuff
01-30-2014, 02:22 AM
Sylvan is in the board because I prefer Liliana. She's insane right now. Elves is certainly scary, but I wanted to play 2 Krosan Grips and I felt as though there was too much overlap.

I personally find Tar Pit too low impact, but Dan and the Hatfields both like it, so I may be wrong about it.

Here's a round by round recap in case you're interested: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27495-8th-at-SCG-Baltimore-with-Team-America&p=787451#post787451

Final Fortune
01-30-2014, 02:44 AM
Has anybody else thought about SBing Massacre at all? It's obviously more double sided than Golgari Charm, but it's free and it outright kills Delver of Secrets and Stoneforge Mystic in Patriot. Seems like a reasonable enough argument to try and run it as like a 2x in the board?

Arcadia
01-30-2014, 03:18 AM
I think 3/2 is a perfectly reasonable split… it is what I run (with the 4th decay in the sideboard). This is also somewhat related to the Thoughtseize vs Hymn argument; the deck is just way too crowded at the 2cc slot. Disfigure and Thoughtseize help out so much. Have fun beating a turn one Mother of Rune from DnT without either.

I haven't tested maindeck TS, although I think it can work, it's a different play style for the deck - Which I don't like - .
But Abrupt Decay is superior as maindeck card, as it hits equips, balances, tarmogoyfs, batterskull tokens and it can be countered (this includes daze). The other thing is that you're not swapping 3 abrupts to improve the curve, you're changing 1 abrupt decay for 1 disfigure, which will improve the curve 5% of the time, and will lower your chances to kill something important 15% of the time. (Yes, my statistics are also made on the spot :laugh:)

Just one thing to remind: You can't beat all the draws, so sometimes if the opponent draws mother T1 and you have a decay, you will be screwed. In the same way if the opponent draws jitte and you have disfigure you will be screwed. That's life.


Has anybody else thought about SBing Massacre at all? It's obviously more double sided than Golgari Charm, but it's free and it outright kills Delver of Secrets and Stoneforge Mystic in Patriot. Seems like a reasonable enough argument to try and run it as like a 2x in the board?

I did it, and it feels sweet at the beginning, but when you play it half of the time you're unhappy because you have delver or shaman (I tested it against Patriot). If I would have space I would run 1 or 2. It seems very good against death and taxes.

phazonmutant
01-30-2014, 04:40 AM
I haven't tested maindeck TS, although I think it can work, it's a different play style for the deck - Which I don't like - .
But Abrupt Decay is superior as maindeck card, as it hits equips, balances, tarmogoyfs, batterskull tokens and it can be countered (this includes daze). The other thing is that you're not swapping 3 abrupts to improve the curve, you're changing 1 abrupt decay for 1 disfigure, which will improve the curve 5% of the time, and will lower your chances to kill something important 15% of the time. (Yes, my statistics are also made on the spot :laugh:)

Just one thing to remind: You can't beat all the draws, so sometimes if the opponent draws mother T1 and you have a decay, you will be screwed. In the same way if the opponent draws jitte and you have disfigure you will be screwed. That's life.

I'll admit that Thoughtseize may not be the correct choice even in the current meta (or at least my meta). It's been good so far, but again, I'm playing against a ton of Elves and Stoneforge decks where it really shines and Force is only ok.

Those statistics are definitely not the whole story. It's pretty common to cantrip to find an answer, and in those cases, both the probability of finding your one-of and the chance that you need your one-of to be cheap go up. If you're constantly playing against Esperblade or Miracles, no, Disfigure is not going to be the best maindeck card. Again, look at your meta.


Also, awesome article, Bob! Good to see you get a spot on starcity. I really liked the discussion of how Team American can flexibly adopt roles and how crucial it is to pick the correct role for a hand and matchup. Good analysis.

Griselpuff
01-30-2014, 08:19 AM
Massacre is terrible. Against UW/x Blade, it's rare to get a 2 for 1, and you also typically start out ahead. They also can kill all of your creatures post sb as the Blade player will have RIP and you probably won't have Stalker.

aznepyon7
01-30-2014, 08:45 AM
99% of the time I lead with drs.
It provides more possibilities of broken openings and hedges against waste etc.
The corner cases where I lead with delver involve: drs not helping me with pressure (need to keep up pierce w/mana to pay for daze) and not having hymn in hand. In other words - when setting clock up is of utmost importance and the hand+mu make this decision, you just obey.
If you do not have a fetch in hand and are up f.e. omnitell -> delver seems more appealing than usual.

Remember children, we are a terrible delver deck - try to not play the deck like you would play rug or even uwr.

Sent from phone, while drunk. Cheers.

Sorry that this may be common knowledge, but what do you mean that TA is a terrible delver deck? Are you referring to DRS usually being the better T1 play instead of Delver that RUG or UWR would probably more strongly consider as a viable T1 move?

testing32
01-30-2014, 08:47 AM
Sorry that this may be common knowledge, but what do you mean that TA is a terrible delver deck? Are you referring to DRS usually being the better T1 play instead of Delver that RUG or UWR would probably more strongly consider as a viable T1 move?

You have a lower instant/sorcery count than both of those decks

deviant
01-30-2014, 09:07 AM
You have a lower instant/sorcery count than both of those decks

This. Our delvers do not flip as often, and we don't run (md) pierce that most delver decks use to protect it.
Delver is however, a very good card against pretty much all the combo decks, helps make our blue count barely enough to run force and is a crucial part in combating RiP in postboard games.

Final Fortune
01-30-2014, 09:35 AM
Massacre is terrible. Against UW/x Blade, it's rare to get a 2 for 1, and you also typically start out ahead. They also can kill all of your creatures post sb as the Blade player will have RIP and you probably won't have Stalker.

I don't think it's terrible but it's definitely not as flexible as Golgari Charm, there were a couple of situations where being able to kill off a SFM that tutored for Batterskull while tapping out for Tarmogoyf were pretty clutch plays.

rluca
01-30-2014, 11:26 AM
how do u side against reanimate and lands?

Gesendet von meinem GT-I9300 mit Tapatalk

SORO
02-01-2014, 08:37 AM
Dark Confidant in this deck?

Dragonslayer_90
02-01-2014, 10:21 AM
Dark Confidant in this deck?

It's already been discussed. Some people like it and some people don't. The Hymn Stalker version is generally more popular, but it's not unheard of for someone to have success with a build running Dark Confidant. Here's a recent one: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=62695.

Sturtzilla
02-03-2014, 01:14 PM
It's already been discussed. Some people like it and some people don't. The Hymn Stalker version is generally more popular, but it's not unheard of for someone to have success with a build running Dark Confidant. Here's a recent one: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=62695.

I played Wiley's BUG Tempo list at SCG Columbus. Same maindeck although our sideboards were 13 of the same 15 (If I recall correctly he had 1 Golgari Charm and 2 Engineered Plagues, while I played the reverse and opted for a 3rd Flusterstorm over the Arcane Laboratory). We actually travelled to the event together as well. I went 5-0 then hit a rough patch... ended 5-3-1. It is worth mentioning that two of my losses were to Stoneblade players that made the Top 8 (Joe Bernal and James Baker). I think our configuration was a little soft to a resolved Batterskull. Stifle can keep them from searching for it and Abrupt Decay can take out the Germ, but these I found were not as winning lines as I would have hoped. For those plays to work, you must be really getting after their life total. John and I talked about the deck after the event a bit on how to improve the Batterskull problem. Krosan Grip and Nature's Claim were the options that were coming up with. Overall I ended 8-4-1 for the weekend having gone 3-1 in the Legacy Open Trail on Saturday. I have really liked playing the deck but I don't have as much experience as John does with it. What I will say is that coming from a RUG background, this deck plays in a very similar fashion. It can be just as explosive but has the tools (Confidant and Deathrite) to go long or come back from really poor/stalled game states.

It really comes down to personal preference when we consider the Stifle versus Hymn to Tourach debate. Same goes for the Dark Confidant versus Tombstalker debate. I think recent events show that the core of this deck is strong enough that you can play either slant and be successful.

Manipulato
02-03-2014, 01:51 PM
Hey Guys,
on Friday I played a lot of testgames with boarding etc against Sneak Show, DnT, Lands & Team America in our local shop for the upcoming GP in Paris.

This was the list:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Tombstalker

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catcacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Golgari Charm
3 Disfigure
3 Spell Pierce
2 Envelop
2 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Vendilion Qlique

Testpartner 1: Sneak Show
I lost 0:2 even if I had 1 FoW 1 Pierce & 1 Daze in hand but he landed enough lands to play around the taxing counter and had a FoW on his own, my cantrips found no pressure and I lost finally :rolleyes: Was really frustrating...
In: +3 Spell Pierce + 2 Envelop + 1 Clique + 2 Charm
Out: -4 Abrupt Decay -2 Tombstalker -1 Bayou -1 Hymn (Otd)

Testpartner 2: Sneak Show :wink:
I won 4:0 and had good draws with early pressure + counter/discard. I really missed Pithing Needle in such games against Sneak Attack -> Would have been much easier with needle, mostly because if he has enough mana available he can cast & activate Sneak Attack without me doing anything productiv even with grip or charm in hand because of priority etc.
Lilis are nice to have here MD but most of the time I got killed by Sneak Attack and the 2 Envelop were exactly for that reason not soo great. Got the axe even if they`re great against Miracles and Elves.

Same boarding plan

Testpartner 3: Death n Taxes
I won 4:3 after a 3:0 start. Hymn & Lili felt quite clunky at the beginning but they had they're cons too. In one game Disfigure and TS would have been much better but all in all they were quite solid and after boarding the MU is much more easy with 3 Charm 3 Disfigure 1 Grip 1 Clique. Sometimes BS was the only problem and having only 1 Grip as a answer was a bit low especially if the whole Tier 1 decks are playing it. Maybe +1 Grip in the SB
In: +3 Charm +3 Disfigure +1 Grip +1 Clique
Out: -4 FoW -1 Stalker -1 Delver -1 Daze -1 Hymn I think

Testpartner 4: Lands
I got crushed with 1:3! I knew its a bad MU but well. ..
Only way to win here is a fast DS start compared with Daze/FoW/Pierce for his Exploration/Manabond/Loam start and a couple of wastelands.
I had not really effectiv cards to bring in here, only Pierce, Clique, Charm and Envelop to counter/Destroy his explosive starts or destroy his early enchantments. My only GY hate (Cages) do nothing here :rolleyes: Nihil Spellbomb or Surgical would have been better/great but they`re are not so flexible like cages)
In: +2 Golgari Charm +2 Envelop +3 Spell Pierce +1 Clique
Out: -2 Liliana -2 Tombstalker -4 Daze (Otd) -4 Hymn (Otp) I think

Testpartner 5: BG NicFit
I played 2:4 or so. ..Another bad MU :-(
Here were the Hymns & Charms & Tombstalkers very good. But its a really grindy MU and he has more removal as I play creatures I think.
Deed and Grave Titan are bitches!
In: +3 Spell Pierce +2 Cages (Against flashback with Explorer & his 4 Zenith´s) +3 Charm (Against Deed & Decay)
Out: -4 FoW (Otp) -4 Daze (Otd) 2 Liliana -1 Bayou -1 AD I think

Testpartner 6: Team America (with TNN)
Here I won 2:1.
Well its a material war but Hymns, Stalkers & Lilis were great. Boarded out here - 4 FoW -1 Delver -1 Daze and added +3 Disfigure + 2 Charm (to handle TNN, negate AD or destroy Sylvan) and +1 V.Clique. Spell Pierce could be ok but it was late and not sure.
In: +3 Disfigure +1 Vendilion Clique +2 Charm (against TNN, Sylvan or AD)
Out: -4 FoW -1 Daze -1 Delver

All in all the deck felt quite good and very flexible but Im thinking of a 2nd copie of Krosan Grip & Vendilion Clique and 2 copies of Pithing Needle in the SB, especially against Sneak Attack and UW Miracles (Top/Jace) which is very popular atm. The 2 Envelop got cutted because the 2 Needles are good against Miracles too and the elves MU is quite good after boarding with 3 Charm 3 Disfigure and 2 Cages, I think.

The 2 Stalker & 4th Goyf were much better than the 3 TNN`s. Goyf was in all games a 5/6 6/7 monster beast and Stalker is such a fast flying fattie monster, really fast clock with the guys.
The 2 Lilis were quite nice but I think its a really flexible slot which can easily be a Slyvan or Disfiure/Dismember.
Hymn vs. Thoughtseize, well I had results were the Hymns were nuts but I had situations where TS would have been much faster, easier to cast and reliable than Hymn, especially if I had only 2 lands in play but ok...

So SB looks now like that:
3 Golgari Charm
3 Disfigure
3 Spell Pierce
2 Pithing Needle (Against Top, Jace, Sneak Attack, Vial etc)
2 Grafdiggers Cage (too good against Elves, Reanimator & Dredge)
1 Krosan Grip (maybe a 2nd against mainly Top & Batterskull...)
1 Vendilion Clique (maybe a 2nd against all sorts of Combo and SFM Decks)

Dont know really what to cut, maybe 1 Charm 1 Disfigure or 1 Cage??

Jackehehe
02-03-2014, 02:24 PM
Hi guys!

I'm considering picking up this deck, main reasons being the ones that Bob Huang wrote in his latest article. I'm wondering though if there is a write-up how to sideboard or generally just how to play the deck (I tried youtube but didn't really find anything. I am particulary interested how to play vs grindier match-ups such as punishing jund or miracles.

Manipulato
02-03-2014, 02:59 PM
If I take my list above I would board like that:

Against Punishing Jund:

In: +3 Disfigure +2 Pierce +2 Charm
Out: -4 FoW - 2 Daze (Otd) -1 Daze (Otp) -1 Delver

Against UW Miracles:

In: +3 Pierce +1 Grip +2 Needles +1 Clique, Maybe +2 Charm (Against CB, RIP, Supreme Verdict)
Out: -4 Daze (Because a good Miracles player will play around it and land in the first 3-4 turns only lands and cantrips) -2 Tombstalker (Because of RIP & Jace bounce and Clique is better than Stalker in that MU) 1 Bayou

Not 100 % sure but I think its a good basic sideboard strategy...

Grand Superior
02-04-2014, 06:38 AM
For those of you who have SCG Premium, Drew Levin wrote an article today (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27849_Seriously-Play-Thoughtseize-In-Your-Black-Delver-Deck.html) on Team America (he calls it BUG Delver... ugh) and how he advocates for the Nemesieze list over the Hymnstalker list. He argues this mostly on the merits of Thoughtseize over Hymn to Tourach rather than TNN over Tombstalker. He makes some good points, but in his appraisal of the TNN/Thoughtseize list I think he neglects to mention the potency of a one-sided Golgari Charm, which is one of the biggest reasons to play Team in the first place IMO.

Having said that, I might switch to a "Thoughtstalker" version of the deck just to try it out.

Manipulato
02-04-2014, 08:29 AM
For those of you who have SCG Premium, Drew Levin wrote an article today (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27849_Seriously-Play-Thoughtseize-In-Your-Black-Delver-Deck.html) on Team America (he calls it BUG Delver... ugh) and how he advocates for the Nemesieze list over the Hymnstalker list. He argues this mostly on the merits of Thoughtseize over Hymn to Tourach rather than TNN over Tombstalker. He makes some good points, but in his appraisal of the TNN/Thoughtseize list I think he neglects to mention the potency of a one-sided Golgari Charm, which is one of the biggest reasons to play Team in the first place IMO.

Having said that, I might switch to a "Thoughtstalker" version of the deck just to try it out.

I dont like TNN over Stalker anymore, I had the same thoughts at the beginning but how you said a one sided Golgari Charm is huge against a lot of decks and with a Stalker list we dont care about all these TNN hate against us simply because we dont play him! Plus Stalker is a much faster clock and costs most of the time only 2 mana and not like TNN 3 mana.
Plus he has some nice little bonus ability in blocking opposing Delvers, Cliques, Serra Avengers or Flickerwhisps which sometimes can be relevant in protecting your Liliana or your lifepoints.

Thoughtseize over Hymn. Well I played both lists now and I think in most parts Lewin has right. In my playtesting a lot of the time the Hymn felt very clunky and discarded not very important stuff (ok a couple of times they were great but not many times), especially against DnT. Or I cant cast it against a 4 lands Sneak Show board with me only having 2 lands with one FoW + pitch and pierce, simply because my enemie could having easily a Pierce or Brainstorm or Misdirection to protect his hand/hide his goodies (he had about 5-6 cards in hand and all mana open with 2 fetches) and I cant play my pierce when he goes of because Im tapped out and have only FoW as protection which should not be a problem for him to counter with an additional Pierce FoW or Red Blast next turn.
TS would have been better here because I could played it for one mana + had the option to counter his combo piece with Pierce & FoW. In another game where I played against DnT he made T2 SFM into BS and I could not play Hymn because of Sea & Trop and even if so I had very little chances to hit BS. Later in the game BS broke my neck and I lost because I could not handle it in the long game. T1 Seize T 2 Goyf/Delver or T1 Shaman T2 TS + Goyf just feels so good.
Against Control decks like NicFit or Miracles or punishing Jund Hymn is simply better because its a material war and a fight for resources but against combo decks or SFM decks TS is much better.
Both discard spells have their pros & cons and are good at what they're made for but attack different decks types.

For me TNN sure not, TS maybe depending on the meta.

testing32
02-04-2014, 08:47 AM
For those of you who have SCG Premium, Drew Levin wrote an article today (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27849_Seriously-Play-Thoughtseize-In-Your-Black-Delver-Deck.html) on Team America (he calls it BUG Delver... ugh) and how he advocates for the Nemesieze list over the Hymnstalker list. He argues this mostly on the merits of Thoughtseize over Hymn to Tourach rather than TNN over Tombstalker. He makes some good points, but in his appraisal of the TNN/Thoughtseize list I think he neglects to mention the potency of a one-sided Golgari Charm, which is one of the biggest reasons to play Team in the first place IMO.

Having said that, I might switch to a "Thoughtstalker" version of the deck just to try it out.

I've tested this and came to the opposite conclusion.

Lets put this in context.

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/23898_The-Ultimate-RUG-Delver-Primer.html

Stifle was played in the optimal RUG lists.

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26639_Young-Pyromancer-The-Cycle-Is-Complete.html

Young pyromancer is not as good as bob, sfm, goyf or snapcaster.

Absolutely test for yourself but take these articles with a grain of salt.

BennBeckmann
02-04-2014, 09:09 AM
Thoughtseize over Hymn. Well I played both lists now and I think in most parts Lewin has right. In my playtesting a lot of the time the Hymn felt very clunky and discarded not very important stuff (ok a couple of times they were great but not many times), especially against DnT. Or I cant cast it against a 4 lands Sneak Show board with me only having 2 lands with one FoW + pitch and pierce, simply because my enemie could having easily a Pierce or Brainstorm or Misdirection to protect his hand/hide his goodies (he had about 5-6 cards in hand and all mana open with 2 fetches) and I cant play my pierce when he goes of because Im tapped out and have only FoW as protection which should not be a problem for him to counter with an additional Pierce FoW or Red Blast next turn.
TS would have been better here because I could played it for one mana + had the option to counter his combo piece with Pierce & FoW. In another game where I played against DnT he made T2 SFM into BS and I could not play Hymn because of Sea & Trop and even if so I had very little chances to hit BS. Later in the game BS broke my neck and I lost because I could not handle it in the long game. T1 Seize T 2 Goyf/Delver or T1 Shaman T2 TS + Goyf just feels so good.
Against Control decks like NicFit or Miracles or punishing Jund Hymn is simply better because its a material war and a fight for resources but against combo decks or SFM decks TS is much better.
Both discard spells have their pros & cons and are good at what they're made for but attack different decks types.


I think in Paris I'll be playing a 3/2 Hymn/TS split main with Vendilion Clique being in the 2nd flexslot. Like that you have a good mixture of pointed discard and raw power, you run less 2cc spells and Clique provides another clock when it comes to racing Nemesis. The 4th Hymn goes to the SB of course to fight Jund and socalled fair decks.
I'll definitely play trials on friday though, to make final adjustments.

anakyn
02-04-2014, 09:42 AM
T1 Seize T 2 Goyf/Delver or T1 Shaman T2 TS + Goyf just feels so good.


Honestly, T1 Shaman T2 Hymn + Waste seems to me even more powerful, considering Hymn could hit another land and possibly win the game alone.

I don't think Thoughtseize is good for tempo strategy, so I guess I'll keep using Hymn as long as I wanna play Team America the aggressive way (as it should be played imho).
We wanna punch the opponent hard, and Thoughtseize is not a punch, Hymn is.

Of course there will be occasions where Thoughtseize would be better, but that's not an argument: even Scavenging Ooze sometimes is better than Goyf, but Canadian keeps playing Goyf because it's best most of the time.
I think the same logic should be applied to Team America: which is best for us most of the time between Hymn and Thoughtseize?

BennBeckmann
02-04-2014, 10:02 AM
Honestly, T1 Shaman T2 Hymn + Waste seems to me even more powerful, considering Hymn could hit another land and possibly win the game alone.

I think these sequences are both really good. But when I think about Patriot's 7-8 1cc spotremoval main I don't think it's helpful to let these dream-openers determine our decisions and I don't think we should rely tooo much on DRS. Spell Pierce is so heavily played right now that I tend to board out 1-2 hymns on the draw against decks that run it. Plus, I'd rather Thoughtseize their Swords to Plowshares/Submerge away before casting my Tombstalker than rely on random discard in that case. When your threads stick, Team America punshes even harder.

deviant
02-04-2014, 10:40 AM
Personally; drew preferring tnn and seize make me feel comfortable running ts and htt.
I'm having hard time recalling one instance legacy-related where I felt like he was correct.
Even in hindsight..

To you people who talk about 4 htt -> 3-2 spit w/seize:
Is liliana n2 or sylvan taking the hit for the 5th discard?
I am not agreeing/disagreeing yet, but I would like to know are you cutting lands, cantrips, 2nd stalker or what to fit the 5th in?
That is the configuration I ran when I picked the deck up, but later converted to running cards that help long games in the last 2 flex slots.
Also, has anyone ran ctp over the 4th sea?
I'm regretting having not tried to push the manabase more in my testing - but I have not felt like I needed to either.

BennBeckmann
02-04-2014, 11:38 AM
Personally; drew preferring tnn and seize make me feel comfortable running ts and htt.
I'm having hard time recalling one instance legacy-related where I felt like he was correct.
Even in hindsight..

Totally agreed :D

The Thoughtseize replaces my Dismember main, but I don't know yet if I'll miss a 1cc removal main. This was mainly dedicated to mom, opposing DRS and Bob but I have the feeling that these have become less important than SFM/Nemesis.
I think everything discussed here is highly depending on everyone's playstyle btw. I never liked Lili mainboard at all, for example, but people having success with multiple of them and thus playing more midrangey makes me wonder if my approach is still viable.

BennBeckmann
02-04-2014, 11:47 AM
Personally; drew preferring tnn and seize make me feel comfortable running ts and htt.
I'm having hard time recalling one instance legacy-related where I felt like he was correct.
Even in hindsight..

Totally agreed :D

The Thoughtseize replaces my Dismember main, but I don't know yet if I'll miss a 1cc removal main. This was mainly dedicated to mom, opposing DRS and Bob but I have the feeling that these have become less important than SFM/Nemesis.
I think everything discussed here is highly depending on everyone's playstyle btw. I never liked Lili mainboard at all, for example, but people having success with multiple of them and thus playing more midrangey makes me wonder if my approach is still viable.

Thorhammer
02-04-2014, 12:53 PM
As much as I love Drew Levin's articles I think I need to go with Bob akasuki on this one simple because I know he has played the deck WAY more than Drew has.

Todd Anderson once wrote that Legacy is the worst format for Thoughtseize because Legacy is sooooo consistent. The presence of Ponder Brainstorm makes it much more likely for the opponent to just find another piece and continue on. Hymn generates card advantage, plain and simple. It puts your opponent down a card on you. In the past few months that I've been playing the deck I cannot count the number of sad dejected faces when I play a Hymn to Tourach. I think there might even be a mental advantage to it. When people get hit with a hymn they feel like they've already lost. Let em think it I say.

Manipulato
02-04-2014, 01:57 PM
I think in Paris I'll be playing a 3/2 Hymn/TS split main with Vendilion Clique being in the 2nd flexslot. Like that you have a good mixture of pointed discard and raw power, you run less 2cc spells and Clique provides another clock when it comes to racing Nemesis. The 4th Hymn goes to the SB of course to fight Jund and socalled fair decks.
I'll definitely play trials on friday though, to make final adjustments.

I will play some trials on Friday at Paris too, then we will see how the final list will look like but for the moment I will try the 4 Hymn 2 Lili list only because I have trust in people who are more experienced with this deck.
Maybe I will change the discard package after the trials, lets see...

Sure Drew Lewins article is not the "Holy bible of Legacy" and I will not take this too serious which he writes but he has some good arguments between TS & Hymn which I basically see the same way. But I will trust more those people who tested THIS deck over month or years than a pro which played it maybe a couple of games for sure.

How does your current SB look like? Would be interesting to see.

Greetings

BennBeckmann
02-04-2014, 05:56 PM
My SB underlies constant changes, but I'd go for this more or less:
2 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
1 Engineered Plague
1 Pithing Needle
1 Winter Orb
1 liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library
2 Spell Pierce
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Tormods Crypt
1 Krosan Grip
1 Hymn to Tourach

Not sure if the 4th Hymn is really necessary and neither if I should rather play Pulse over Grip.

anakyn
02-04-2014, 07:59 PM
In the past few months that I've been playing the deck I cannot count the number of sad dejected faces when I play a Hymn to Tourach. I think tyhere might even be a mental advantage to it. When people get hit with a hymn they feel like they've already lost.


Exactly: sometimes the expression on your opponent's face tells you how strong the card you just played is.
The reaction on a resolved Tourach is usually way more desperate than on a resolved Thoughtseize.

Don't get me wrong: I love Thoughtseize and I play the full set in my Jund list: it's just I don't think it fits TA strategy more than Tourach.

Razorwynd
02-04-2014, 08:44 PM
So the debate continues… unfortunately it is hard to honestly compare the two cards from situation to situation, because they are so different. I think this is something that comes from lots and lots of testing. In the end I think that there are metas where one is better than the other, but the largest determining factor will comfort with the game plan associated with either of the two strategies. Should this be true, I feel like both camps should stop bantering about one being superior than the other. But then of course what else would we talk about ;]

anakyn
02-05-2014, 03:39 AM
I don't think it's only a "meta" decision, it's something that involves the deck in itself and the way we wanna play it.

Thoughtseize, despite being very strong in certain matchups, it's not a "tempo" card: it doesn't give any advantage, and usually takes us slightly behind in exchange of removing the best card from their hand. It doesn't affect board position and it's not a threat.
It's clearly a "control" card, very strong for midrange or control strategies, like Jund or Esper: decks which can play the long game and grind out victories in the late game if needed.

Our deck, on the other hand, has to win relatively fast and play its threats early to establish advantage and then keeping it for as long we need to finish the opponent.
Free counters are very synergistic with this plan, as well as Tourach: counters keep opponent's early threats and removal away for the first turns, while Tourach improves the advantage we already have established in the beginning.

I don't see how turn 1 Thoughtseize can help our plan to be honest: we just made a 1 for 1 without sticking anything on the board, and now it's our opponent who has the chance of taking an advantage on us.
We really want to play that Shaman or that Delver in our first turn, because in most cases we are the aggressor and we wanna apply pressure on opponent.

The only scenarios where I can see Thoughtseize being better than Tourach are:
1) playing it after a resolved Mystic to take away the equipment
2) A+B combo decks like S&T and Reanimator

The n° 1 scenario is a bit odd because we should keep our Thoughtseize in hand until they play Mystic, but Thoughtseize usually is a turn 1 play, and how can we know if the opponent is playing Stoneblade / DnT before our first turn?

And even in these scenarios, a turn 2 Tourach can be game-breaking as well.

Again, I'm not saying Tourach is better than Thoughtseize in a vacuum because it wouldn't be honest: in most cases and for most decks Thoughtseize is the best choice and the right turn 1 play.
It's just I don't see how Thoughtseize fits our strategy at all.

But I'm talking about the "standard" TA with Stalker and no Stifle; maybe the Confidant - Stifle version can put the Thoughtseize to better use.
The fact is: if I had to play Confidant and Thoughtseize and go for the midrange strategy, I'd probably choose Jund over Team America because it's better equipped for that plan.

BennBeckmann
02-05-2014, 04:46 AM
I agree with most of what you said and I don't wanna be the one who argues for Thoughtseize and then end up playing the full set of Hymn again- I'm not sure myself if it's wise to play only three hymn.
But the reason for me to split is not to have another turn one play, but to have more options on turn two. I often find myself turn 2 with DRS out and only 2cc spells + lands in hand. In that case the T1 DRS is kind of meh. Other people approach this problem by splitting Decay/ Disfigure main and thus smoothening their curve. Now the question arises what's more relevant- discard or removal.
Besides, we're still playing three hymn main, so it's not like we'd abandon that plan, which you have very described very well, at all.

The reason for me to bother you people with this is that I just don't know which way to go. I found the above mentioned case to be a weakness of the deck, so I'm looking for insight to improve it.

anakyn
02-05-2014, 05:00 AM
But the reason for me to split is not to have another turn one play, but to have more options on turn two. I often find myself turn 2 with DRS out and only 2cc spells + lands in hand. In that case the T1 DRS is kind of meh.


Honestly, I find TA to be pretty saturated with 1CC spells even without Thoughtseize.

Even if I think turn 1 Shaman is the right play against an unknown opponent, we also pack the standard 8 copies of Brainstorm / Ponder.
With 16 1CC spells (Shaman, Delver, Ponder, Brainstorm) and 14 2CC spell (Goyf, Tourach, Decay, Stalker) I find it difficult not to have another 1CC spell after a turn 1 Shaman.

But even if we don't have other 1CC spells, something like Tourach + Wasteland, Goyf + Wasteland, or simply landing Liliana doesn't seem too bad at all ;)

Razorwynd
02-05-2014, 10:48 AM
Honestly, I find TA to be pretty saturated with 1CC spells even without Thoughtseize.

Even if I think turn 1 Shaman is the right play against an unknown opponent, we also pack the standard 8 copies of Brainstorm / Ponder.
With 16 1CC spells (Shaman, Delver, Ponder, Brainstorm) and 14 2CC spell (Goyf, Tourach, Decay, Stalker) I find it difficult not to have another 1CC spell after a turn 1 Shaman.

But even if we don't have other 1CC spells, something like Tourach + Wasteland, Goyf + Wasteland, or simply landing Liliana doesn't seem too bad at all ;)

You are already living the dream if your DRS lives past turn one and you can play without fear of Daze… It is not about having 3 mana on turn two, but rather having more options on turn two after your DRS dies to bolt that don't just fold to daze.

Razorwynd
02-05-2014, 10:58 AM
Thoughtseize, despite being very strong in certain matchups, it's not a "tempo" card: it doesn't give any advantage, and usually takes us slightly behind in exchange of removing the best card from their hand. It doesn't affect board position and it's not a threat.
It's clearly a "control" card, very strong for midrange or control strategies, like Jund or Esper: decks which can play the long game and grind out victories in the late game if needed.

Our deck, on the other hand, has to win relatively fast and play its threats early to establish advantage and then keeping it for as long we need to finish the opponent.
Free counters are very synergistic with this plan, as well as Tourach: counters keep opponent's early threats and removal away for the first turns, while Tourach improves the advantage we already have established in the beginning.

I don't see how turn 1 Thoughtseize can help our plan to be honest: we just made a 1 for 1 without sticking anything on the board, and now it's our opponent who has the chance of taking an advantage on us.
We really want to play that Shaman or that Delver in our first turn, because in most cases we are the aggressor and we wanna apply pressure on opponent.


Thoughtseize is a lot more of a tempo card than Hymn is!! You spend one mana to take their early action forcing them to play into your taxing counters. I have lost plenty of times to DnT after resolving a Hymn because it left them with a SFM or a Mirran Crusader that quickly took over the game. Now, I am not saying that thoughtseize would have won me the game in these situations, we will never know because the two cards do very different things, but it could have easily been an answer to the card that killed me.

anakyn
02-05-2014, 12:26 PM
You are already living the dream if your DRS lives past turn one and you can play without fear of Daze… It is not about having 3 mana on turn two, but rather having more options on turn two after your DRS dies to bolt that don't just fold to daze.


I agree, still this doesn't address the Thoughtseize vs Tourach debate.

Even if my Shaman doesn't survive until turn 2, I still have 2 mana when I untap, so Tourach keeps being a solid choice.




Thoughtseize is a lot more of a tempo card than Hymn is!!


Not at all, sorry.

Thoughtseize puts you behind in terms of "tempo": it's a 1 for 1, you spent 1 mana for it while your opponent spent no mana, it's not a threat, and sometimes it's not even a solution to your opponent's threats, especially against redundant fair decks.
About this matter, I strongly advise reading this article (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26855_Thoughtseize-You.html) by Reid Duke.

There is literally no other Tempo deck around playing Thoughtseize or even discussing it.

BURG is a RUG variation which splashes black, and even with this splash they don't play Thoughtseize.
It should be strange for a tempo deck to splash color X and NOT to play one the best cards that color would offer, if that card was synergistic with its strategy, right?


If you like playing Team America as a midrange deck, than Thoughtseize could be great (at that point I would also play Confidant); but it's not good in a tempo strategy.




I have lost plenty of times to DnT after resolving a Hymn because it left them with a SFM or a Mirran Crusader that quickly took over the game. Now, I am not saying that thoughtseize would have won me the game in these situations, we will never know because the two cards do very different things, but it could have easily been an answer to the card that killed me.


Considering just a single matchup to evaluate the pros & cons of some cards makes not much sense to be honest.

Fact is: against D&T both Tourach AND Thoughtseize are pretty bad.
Tourach because they usually play Liege (otherwise it would still be good), Thoughtseize because their deck is so redundant that they will likely find another copy of the cards you just discarded, or another card which represents pretty the same threat to you.
Additionally D&T plays Vial, so if you draw Thoughtseize in the mid game they can just bait it and put the potential target directly on play in response, with you losing 2 life for nothing.

I think that against D&T the best solution is to overload on removal and try to focus on the board instead of their hand.

deviant
02-05-2014, 04:27 PM
If you like playing Team America as a midrange deck, then Thoughtseize could be great

I like playing TA as a midrange deck. I win very often my games against miracle and non-red blade variants through Lilianas ultimate. Hymn lets me board into a midrange-control deck. Without it I doubt such a strategy would work very well.
This is, I feel, TA's biggest strength over the other tempo decks. Through being a bad delver deck we can sb into a good grind deck. With still being able to sport respectable threat of pushing the tempo advantage if the opp falls behind.
This versatility in gameplans available to us makes playing against us awkward for the perceivable control opponent.

If you run thoughtseize over htt you give up this freedom of positioning yourself into strategically advantageous positions. You get better tools to fight certain interactions and cards, but lock yourself into unfavorable positions at times.

Do you have any idea how awkward it is to stockpile on removal against a deck that could just jam hymns instead?
Against seize they at least lose life and tempo to trade 1-1 :D

Razorwynd
02-05-2014, 09:11 PM
Not at all, sorry.

Thoughtseize puts you behind in terms of "tempo": it's a 1 for 1, you spent 1 mana for it while your opponent spent no mana, it's not a threat, and sometimes it's not even a solution to your opponent's threats, especially against redundant fair decks.
About this matter, I strongly advise reading this article (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26855_Thoughtseize-You.html) by Reid Duke.


If thoughtseize is not tempo then hymn is twice as bad because it costs two mana and doesn't affect the board…

Thoughtseize has some pseudo-tempo and card advantage because you can strand uncastable (i.e., irrelevant) cards in the opponents hand. Hymn can not guarantee this.

So, instead of telling my why thoughtseize is not great in terms of tempo (which I agree on), please tell how a card that costs twice as much mana and STILL has not affect on the board is any more of a tempo card.

Maybe if I had said, "hymn is more of a tempo disadvantage than thoughtseize", then you would not have complained as much.

Razorwynd
02-05-2014, 09:20 PM
I agree, still this doesn't address the Thoughtseize vs Tourach debate.

Even if my Shaman doesn't survive until turn 2, I still have 2 mana when I untap, so Tourach keeps being a solid choice.

...and you cast hymn and it gets dazed…or you don't cast anything for fear of daze and loose out on mana efficiency.

Really all we are doing it coming up with contrived situations to argue our points which is not really constructive at all.

Avatar of Bro
02-06-2014, 03:20 AM
I'm having hard time recalling one instance legacy-related where I felt like he was correct.


This.

pandaman
02-06-2014, 03:22 AM
This.

Luckily you have to be Premium to read him.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

anakyn
02-06-2014, 05:46 AM
So, instead of telling my why thoughtseize is not great in terms of tempo (which I agree on), please tell how a card that costs twice as much mana and STILL has not affect on the board is any more of a tempo card.


I think I never said Tourach was a "tempo" card, I just said Thoughtseize wasn't, because you and someone else insisted it was.
About Tourach, I said it was "synergistic" with our strategy because it increases the advantage we wanna achieve in the first turns of the game.

TA's plan is to apply early pressure with tempo strategy, then keep the advantage for as many turns as we need to kill the opponent.

Thoughtseize is not tempo neither gives any advantage, it just doesn't fit this deck at all if you ask me.
Tourach is not tempo BUT it gives advantage, so it fits the deck much better.

anakyn
02-06-2014, 06:01 AM
About the D&T matchup, I wanted to ask to someone who has been playing TA for longer than me: do you keep your Tourach in or you prefer to side them out?

I'm asking because, as a primarily Jund player, I always side out all Tourach in the fear of Wilt-Leaf Liege, which is kinda strong against BGx decks.

Playing Jund against D&T I always feel I have good control on the board thanks to the amount of removal this deck plays, so I side out all discard and bring in more removal in the form of Golgari charm. The main problem for Jund in that matchup is developing the mana to the point you can abuse the Grove / Punishing combo, so I also bring in Loam.


Since TA plays less removal and has less tools to control the board (here comes my question), I'm asking myself if Tourach is a necessary evil to play: if we can't manage a developed board by D&T, maybe we need to attack their hand and try to remove their threats before they can play them.
The problem is: Liege is even stronger vs TA than vs Jund (we can't burn him down with double Punishing recursion), so hitting him with Tourach seems like GG or so.

I don't know the answer to this matter so I'm asking you what are your sideboard plans against D&T.

BennBeckmann
02-06-2014, 08:18 AM
I think you're right to take out discard to avoid the Liege, esp Liliana should be taken out. Our best shot in this matchup is Delver, so I leave in Force and add Spell Pierce to counter their Swords, and try to save at least some amount of removal for their flyers. Bring in Cliques, if you have them, as well as Library and consider taking out a Goyf, Stalker and/or DRS if you must.
I wouldn't try to play the control part in this matchup because they do it way better. Once they start effectively taxing you, you're lost with your sorcery speedish stuff.
When I was playing DnT, a turn one Delver was the hardest thing to beat.

deviant
02-06-2014, 09:16 AM
I've been doing the exact opposite. Between vial, thalia and cavern countering stuff has not proven to be very effective.
G1 what ben said holds true: delver and stalker up - hope&pray.
Postboard I like to get controlling though. Charm is phenomenal as you can just refuse to decay/edict/disfigure anything with 1 toughness. Sometimes they get awkward mana draws relying on vial and those games we can steal with decay&waste : look for those opportunities.
Hymn is risky, but helps you grind so I like to keep most in. Some serious risk-reward evaluating needs to be done here though but remember that they also could have crusader and that you surely would like to hymn away now wouldn't you?
That is also 1 reason I like liliana here : kills a crusader. Beware of unneccessary +1 though.
I have been taking out counters and some number of ponders, a hymn, at least 1 stalker etc.
Sb'ing highly depending on what you run, as after the first few slots the what vs what game gets really close and is also dependant on how you wish to / how your available tools allow you to approach the mu.

Asthereal
02-06-2014, 09:20 AM
If thoughtseize is not tempo then hymn is twice as bad because it costs two mana and doesn't affect the board…
On the draw, you might be right. On the play it's a different story.
When tempo matters, f.i. against Canadian Thresh, I take out Hymn on the draw.
I will give two almost the same examples, showing why. (TA is Team America, CT is Canadian Thresh, of course.)

On the play
TA: Fetch for a Sea, cast Deathrite.
CT: Tropical, cast Delver.
TA: Play Wasteland, use Deathrite and Sea to cast Hymn to Tourach, keeping Waste open for Daze mana. Then Waste the Tropical.
Here, we keep Tempo advantage (more mana sources), and we have Hymn to wreck their hand, making it harder to recover.

On the draw
CT: Tropical, cast Delver
TA: Fetch for Sea, cast Deathrite
CT: Brainstorm in upkeep, flip Delver, main phase fetch for Volcanic, Bolt Deathrite, attack for 3.
TA: Play Bayou and cast Hymn?
Let's look at this last play by TA. If we do this, we allow CT to play Waste, cast Tarmogoyf, and then Waste our Sea. That leaves us two guys and a land behind in development. The Tempo is so far in favour of the CT player that we will likely lose. And I am not even considering the possibility that CT uses Daze to counter our Hymn.

The general rule with Hymn on the draw is (in my opinion): if you are NOT behind in Tempo/development, cast it as soon as possible. If you ARE behind in Tempo/development, sit on it. And let's face it, we don't want to sit on any card in a matchup where Tempo matters. So I side them out on the draw against decks where Tempo matters a lot, because Tempo will not very likely be in my favour on the draw.

anakyn
02-06-2014, 12:30 PM
I've been doing the exact opposite. Between vial, thalia and cavern countering stuff has not proven to be very effective.
G1 what ben said holds true: delver and stalker up - hope&pray.
Postboard I like to get controlling though. Charm is phenomenal as you can just refuse to decay/edict/disfigure anything with 1 toughness. Sometimes they get awkward mana draws relying on vial and those games we can steal with decay&waste : look for those opportunities.


Agreed about siding out counters because they are a Vial deck; even when I face DnT with Esper I just keep a couple of FoWs in because of Cataclysm.

About the "protect the Delver with counters" argument (by BennBeckmann): yes, Delver probably is our biggest threat against them, but I find it so hard to protect him from all the removal and flyers they play, that I prefer not to bother too much trying to save his life.

Agreed also on the "controllish route" post-board: Charm really is that great.



Hymn is risky, but helps you grind so I like to keep most in. Some serious risk-reward evaluating needs to be done here though but remember that they also could have crusader and that you surely would like to hymn away now wouldn't you?
That is also 1 reason I like liliana here : kills a crusader. Beware of unnecessary +1 though.

Agreed on the "high risk-high reward" route we probably have to follow as Team America vs DnT.
I think Jund can afford to focus entirely on the board state, while TA most times simply can't.

I've seen less Crusaders lately, and with this new cat called Brimaz around, DnT players will probably cut Mirran completely, so I wouldn't fear it that much.

I find Liliana to be an all-star against DnT when I play Jund (DnT players usually hate to see her, and they're right since ticking Liliana up is the main road to victory), in fact when I play TA I always bring the 3rd copy in (I play 2 maindeck + 1 sideboard): using her abilities can be tricky sometimes because her +1 is VERY risky, but she's just too good all around.



I have been taking out counters and some number of ponders, a hymn, at least 1 stalker etc.
Sb'ing highly depending on what you run, as after the first few slots the what vs what game gets really close and is also dependant on how you wish to / how your available tools allow you to approach the mu.

While I see the reasoning behind cutting Stalker and counters, can you explain why you cut some Ponders too?
Fear of Thalia? Or it's just that you are siding in so many cards that you have to find some space for them?



Anyways, thanks for the replies :)

anakyn
02-06-2014, 12:32 PM
On the play
TA: Fetch for a Sea, cast Deathrite.
CT: Tropical, cast Delver.
TA: Play Wasteland, use Deathrite and Sea to cast Hymn to Tourach, keeping Waste open for Daze mana. Then Waste the Tropical.
Here, we keep Tempo advantage (more mana sources), and we have Hymn to wreck their hand, making it harder to recover.


In this scenario, can I ask why you don't just Waste the Tropical before casting Hymn, so that they can't Daze it at all?



The general rule with Hymn on the draw is (in my opinion): if you are NOT behind in Tempo/development, cast it as soon as possible. If you ARE behind in Tempo/development, sit on it. And let's face it, we don't want to sit on any card in a matchup where Tempo matters. So I side them out on the draw against decks where Tempo matters a lot, because Tempo will not very likely be in my favour on the draw.

Agreed: with Tourach, being on the play or on the draw really matters a lot.

BennBeckmann
02-06-2014, 12:56 PM
Alright I value your opinions on DnT and will take it into account in the future. Although I think that forcing a Vial is not too bad as well. I think I might underestimate Lili in this deck thus I'm still unsure on how many copies I should play..

Darkness
02-06-2014, 01:07 PM
I am making the switch from Shardless BUG to Team America. I have had mild success with Shardless however in a new Legacy world with TNN and Spirit of the Lab and Combo decks, I feel that I want more of an aggressive strategy. If the format slips back to more control or mid range I will re-sleeve my Shardless Agents and Ancestral Visions. In the mean time I'm going to make Team America my new home. I'm based in Northern NJ area and they love their combo here, thus part of the reason I switched. I expect to see a decent amount of graveyard// Storm // Sneak // Elves // Stoneblade // DnT in my particular meta. Here is my current list I have ready

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Ponder
4 Hymn to Tourach

2 Liliana of the Veil

1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
2 Bayou
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta

Sideboard
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Disfigure
3 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Spell Pierce
1 Sylvan Library
1 Vendilion Clique

Pretty Stock MD. Any feedback for my list or suggestions would be awesome.

Also I am wondering the concerns for Spirit of the Lab for this deck. I am assuming post board with all the removal it shouldn't be too bad with all the cheap 1CC threats we have.

wcm8
02-06-2014, 01:10 PM
Spirit of the Labyrinth is basically a Meddling Mage that says "You can't play Ponder or Brainstorm".

Annoying, but hardly backbreaking.

Dread of Night is a great sideboard card if you expect to face a fair amount of Wx aggro decks.

testing32
02-06-2014, 02:06 PM
Spirit of the Labyrinth is basically a Meddling Mage that says "You can't play Ponder or Brainstorm".

Annoying, but hardly backbreaking.

Dread of Night is a great sideboard card if you expect to face a fair amount of Wx aggro decks.

I can envision scenarios where I play ponder into the spirit.

deviant
02-06-2014, 03:41 PM
While I see the reasoning behind cutting Stalker and counters, can you explain why you cut some Ponders too?
Fear of Thalia? Or it's just that you are siding in so many cards that you have to find some space for them?

Thalia and the possible presence of the new cantrip-hate cat make excessive cantrips clunky and also a small liability of clogging up our hand. They put a lot of strain on our mana and usually threaten to run away on tempo in the early game leaving us answering their threaths. This leaves little time to ponder effectively.
Mid-late game ponder is very good at finding the right answers for what is left of their assault, but at this point of the game, where our mana is established , we are starting to pull ahead anyways - so I shave usually a few ponders (1-2) to fit in more impact cards. Siding forces out we don't have to worry about the blue count either.

I usually side in at least: 3 charm, 3 disfigure, 1 liliana, 1 grip/pulse, 1 vendilion, 1 sylvan and if I'm running any of these; these jitte, tar pit, needle, seize.
So I'm bringing in 11-12 cards usually.
8 counters, ~1 stalker, ~2 ponder maybe a hymn usually have to move.

Nazgul
02-06-2014, 11:05 PM
Hello everyone, I'm having a very rough time against the meta I'm facing and I'd like to have some opinions on possible sideboard options. I just came back from a tournament at my local store (ending with a sad 2 - 2) after facing Nic Fit, Sneak & Show, Omniscience and Lands (R/G version). Other decks that I saw were Death & Taxes, Dredge, another Nic Fit and a Jund Depth. Any SB options I should consider? I was thinking of running 3x Surgical Extraction, what do you think?

Manipulato
02-07-2014, 04:25 AM
Hello everyone, I'm having a very rough time against the meta I'm facing and I'd like to have some opinions on possible sideboard options. I just came back from a tournament at my local store (ending with a sad 2 - 2) after facing Nic Fit, Sneak & Show, Omniscience and Lands (R/G version). Other decks that I saw were Death & Taxes, Dredge, another Nic Fit and a Jund Depth. Any SB options I should consider? I was thinking of running 3x Surgical Extraction, what do you think?

Hi,
well NicFit & Lands are just super bad MU! I played last week against both decks too and lost 3/4 of my games as well. Honoustly if your meta looks like Lands, NicFit, DnT, Jund Depths etc. I would just switch the deck and playing miralces or something. If you want to stay with TA then I would play Nihil Spellbomb/Surgical Extraction in the SB against Jund Depths & Lands for sure. Against Control heavy decks like NicFit you can play more value cards like Sylvan Library, Liliana, Hymn or especially after boarding something like Thrunn, Creeping Tar-Pit, more Planeswalkers (Jace, Garruk Reentles) etc, things which they struggle with because you attack them from different angles (PW`s, Creatures, Lands).

Hope I could help you a bit.

Asthereal
02-07-2014, 05:15 AM
About the scenario:
TA: Fetch for Sea, cast Deathrite
CT: Tropical, cast Delver
TA: Play Waste, cast Hymn, then Waste the Tropical

In this scenario, can I ask why you don't just Waste the Tropical before casting Hymn, so that they can't Daze it at all?
I personally would like them to waste a Daze on it. If the Trop is the only land they have, they might want to protect it. If they use Daze to rescue their land, it'll cost them a card and a land drop. Tempo remains in my advantage (big time), Hymn could still discard the Tropical and when they replay the land I can still Waste it, or they use up another turn to rescue their land again by leaving open U for a Stifle. Seems like a game I want to play. :smile:

deviant
02-07-2014, 09:46 AM
About the scenario:
TA: Fetch for Sea, cast Deathrite
CT: Tropical, cast Delver
TA: Play Waste, cast Hymn, then Waste the Tropical

I personally would like them to waste a Daze on it. If the Trop is the only land they have, they might want to protect it. If they use Daze to rescue their land, it'll cost them a card and a land drop. Tempo remains in my advantage (big time), Hymn could still discard the Tropical and when they replay the land I can still Waste it, or they use up another turn to rescue their land again by leaving open U for a Stifle. Seems like a game I want to play. :smile:

Same here. I'll tap my waste for a mana if they wish to miss a landdrop and disc daze.
Not like the waste will never ever again find pray. I doubt this ever happens in gameplay with no narcotics involved though.
Against nic fit, dig for stalker and dig for it hard! They cannot decay or deed it and if you save your counters to protect it he could ride the distance.
Barring weird scenarios, stalker is how you win games here.

Manipulato
02-07-2014, 10:45 AM
I saw yesterday a lot of new Top 8 TA decklists at mtgdecks.net and all of them were cutting the FoW and added Spell Pierce + more removal MD like Disfigure/Dismember.
What do you guys think of that in the current meta? Moving FoW to the SB...

List would look like this:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Tombstalker

3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana
1 Disfigure
1 Dismember

4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Golgari Charm
3 Force of Will
2 Krosan Grip
2 Grafdiggers Cage
2 Pithing Needle
1 Liliana
1 Vendilion Clique (Maybe 2)
1 Disfigure

What do you guys think? Keep in mind that FoW is in most fair MU the 1st card which we board out and additional removal is quite nice against a lot of DnT, Elves, Bladedecks. Plus which such a list we have lower numbers of weak cards in the lategame.

Nazgul
02-07-2014, 11:08 AM
Against nic fit, dig for stalker and dig for it hard! They cannot decay or deed it and if you save your counters to protect it he could ride the distance. Barring weird scenarios, stalker is how you win games here.

Would that still be the best strategy if the Nic Fit player splashed white for Path to Exiles? Between Path to Exile, Go for the Throat and Eternal Witness it really seemed impossible to protect it.


Hi,
well NicFit & Lands are just super bad MU! I played last week against both decks too and lost 3/4 of my games as well. Honoustly if your meta looks like Lands, NicFit, DnT, Jund Depths etc. I would just switch the deck and playing miralces or something. If you want to stay with TA then I would play Nihil Spellbomb/Surgical Extraction in the SB against Jund Depths & Lands for sure. Against Control heavy decks like NicFit you can play more value cards like Sylvan Library, Liliana, Hymn or especially after boarding something like Thrunn, Creeping Tar-Pit, more Planeswalkers (Jace, Garruk Reentles) etc, things which they struggle with because you attack them from different angles (PW`s, Creatures, Lands).

Hope I could help you a bit.

Nihil Spellbomb and Surgical Extraction both seem very reasonable against Lands (especially the ones only having Punishing Fire/Dark Depth as win conditions). Thrun and Jace could actually do something against Nic Fit but I feel like I'm probably going to be overrun by the time I can cast them.

skaterajfst
02-07-2014, 11:32 AM
Guys I'm going to attempt some good matchups in the GP Paris (15/02) and I'm in doubt about my sideboard tech.

Sideboard:
3 Disfigure
1 Engineered Plague
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Spell Pierce
1 Submerge
1 Vendilion Clique

I'm thinking put another Vendilion Clique and the third Golgari Charm instead the Plague.
What do you think?

Manipulato
02-07-2014, 01:20 PM
Guys I'm going to attempt some good matchups in the GP Paris (15/02) and I'm in doubt about my sideboard tech.

Sideboard:
3 Disfigure
1 Engineered Plague
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Spell Pierce
1 Submerge
1 Vendilion Clique

I'm thinking put another Vendilion Clique and the third Golgari Charm instead the Plague.
What do you think?

All depending on your MD.

wcm8
02-07-2014, 01:33 PM
Honestly it looks fine to me. Who knows *what* you'll actually get paired against, and even then it's a question of whether you'll ever actually draw the cards or not.

One slot I'm iffy on in your board is Engineered Plague. What do you want this to be fighting? If it's for TNN or tokens, you're better off with the third Golgari Charm. If you want it to fight White decks, you may be better off with Dread of Night. Alternatively, Darkblast is another card to consider. I've played Plague before, but I honestly feel like there are better tools for the job now. Unless you're really expecting a ton of Goblins?

Manipulato
02-09-2014, 08:47 AM
I saw yesterday a lot of new Top 8 TA decklists at mtgdecks.net and all of them were cutting the FoW and added Spell Pierce + more removal MD like Disfigure/Dismember.
What do you guys think of that in the current meta? Moving FoW to the SB...

List would look like this:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Tombstalker

3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana
1 Disfigure
1 Dismember

4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Golgari Charm
3 Force of Will
2 Krosan Grip
2 Grafdiggers Cage
2 Pithing Needle
1 Liliana
1 Vendilion Clique (Maybe 2)
1 Disfigure

What do you guys think? Keep in mind that FoW is in most fair MU the 1st card which we board out and additional removal is quite nice against a lot of DnT, Elves, Bladedecks. Plus which such a list we have lower numbers of weak cards in the lategame.

No opinions on a FoWless list? Such a list went in 1st place of a 60 man turney and toped 8 a couple times 8n last time.

Looooooooo
02-10-2014, 02:00 AM
No opinions on a FoWless list? Such a list went in 1st place of a 60 man turney and toped 8 a couple times 8n last time.

I don.'t like so much the Hyms to play them over the fows, in somo MU they are dead card and same thing in long grindy game.
But maybe 3 fow instead of 4, just to have another flex spot, could be a thing.

As a side note Scott Tompkins top 8ed the SCG open with a list that features TNN instead of tombstalker (if you can't beat them join them) and a singleton of Probe with one less land (i like this, information and draw for free).

- L

Manipulato
02-10-2014, 03:39 AM
I don.'t like so much the Hyms to play them over the fows, in somo MU they are dead card and same thing in long grindy game.
But maybe 3 fow instead of 4, just to have another flex spot, could be a thing.

As a side note Scott Tompkins top 8ed the SCG open with a list that features TNN instead of tombstalker (if you can't beat them join them) and a singleton of Probe with one less land (i like this, information and draw for free).

- L

In that FoWless list you dont play Hymn over FoW, you play Spell Pierce over Hymn! Hymn is in TA the standard discard spell of choice...
I think most of the time you play against midrange/fair decks where the FoW is the weakest card in our deck (and the 1st which we board out all 4) and replacing them with pierce produces no carddisadvantage and we can play more removel like 2 Disfigure/Dismember which helps alot in Elves, DnT, Blade MU´s.
And against unfair decks you have them in your SB.

I dont like the SCG Nash Top 8 list that much. TNN is nice but not in this deck (no equippment to support him) and it makes our own Golgari Charms in the SB alot weaker.
I tested both versions and the Stalker version were much stronger because Stalker is just a much faster clock & dodges most of the removal too (Decay, Bolt, P.Fire etc).
The 4 Thoughtseize´s are ok, you can play that, but depends on the meta, for the moment I prefer 4 Hymn in that slot.

By the way, the SB is very weak to Miracles which is in europe a big player right now.

Grand Superior
02-10-2014, 06:51 AM
Plus he runs Liliana of the Dark Realms! I mean, cmon (just kidding, it's probably a misprint).

I'm also partly intrigued by the three Dismember instead of Disfigure in the sideboard. I guess he becomes a Tarmogoyf/Batterskull killing machine postboard, but it just seems like a lot of lifeloss in a deck that already runs Thoughtseize and can conceivably board in Sylvan Library.

Manipulato
02-10-2014, 07:02 AM
Plus he runs Liliana of the Dark Realms! I mean, cmon (just kidding, it's probably a misprint).

I'm also partly intrigued by the three Dismember instead of Disfigure in the sideboard. I guess he becomes a Tarmogoyf/Batterskull killing machine postboard, but it just seems like a lot of lifeloss in a deck that already runs Thoughtseize and can conceivably board in Sylvan Library.

The Liliana of the Dark Realms is a mistake for sure, should been Liliana of the Veil.

Same thought about the 3 Dismember in the SB, in combination with 4 TS MD its a suicide action. Disfigure kills 80 % of the important creatures too exept for Goyf, Knight, Stalker, BS-Token but well for that reason we have 4 AD & 2 Liliana...

JMLL
02-10-2014, 09:34 AM
This weekend I had a local tournament with 34 ppl in it. 6 Rounds to demonstrate how crucial the 1st game is. I mean, TA is a deck prepared to beat Tier 1. When you face "random decks" you lose.

I used the exact same deck, card by card, that won a 140+ tournament at 100km from this one. The deck:
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12711&iddeck=93223

I'll safe you the details (I didn't take notes) but you'll get the idea:
- R1: UR Delver.
We end 1-1-1 and time is called when I could stabilize G3.I lost G1 to an Epic Topdeck and I won G2 just rolling over. DRAW
- R2: Affinity
Here it starts... I face affinity which is a deck that laughs at Daze and that may skip most of the Decays. He also packed Chalice @1 in the first 60, so I was almost out of the match. I've never missed my Pernicious Deeds that much. 0-2. Loss
- R3: Imperial Painters
Great pairing... for him! I lose G1 to a T1 Blood Moon (Fow) T2 Blood Moon. I can't do anything the rest of the game. G2 I win countering his T1 Blood Moon and smashing his T2 Moon with my Deathrite (that came in my 1st turn) and Krosan Grip. G3 I mull to 4(!!) to get a counter and I win this game with only Deathrites (2x Ensanring Bridges on the board) 2-1 WIN!!
- R4: Nic Fit
The best deck to be paired with. This version had splash to blue for Brainstorm, Phantasmal Image, Glen-Elendra Archmage and Sower. He was also running the Birthing Pod to get the perfect card. I managed to get to Game 3 but I could not win the machup, i maybe used the Deathrite too defensively (I "stabilised" at 3 prior to his comeback) and he ended at 4. 1-2. LOSS
- R5: Merfolks
Let's talk about the good pairings, the bad ones and then Merfolks! :) Not much to comment here 0-2 Loss.
- R6: Death And Taxes.
Yes, it's a Tier deck, but it's the only Tier you don't want to face. 1-2 Loss.

I chose the wrong deck for the meta. In fact, it changed a lot, from the 30-40% TNN in the meta to something very different. Top8 was:
3 Dredge, 2 Miracles, 1 UW Tempo, 1 Pox, 1 DeathBlade

I wish you the best of luck in Round 1!! :)


PS: I know it's not the place to ask for it, but any indications on something better suitted to this, will be apreciated.

KobeBryan
02-10-2014, 10:57 PM
with that meta, play goblins

Manipulato
02-11-2014, 06:06 AM
Hey Guys,

so only a couple of days till GP Paris and I´m still unsure what kind of list I will play, need your adive or tips for that:

I have 2 different lists and it can be only one:

List 1: So the mainstream list as usual with FoW MD and 2 Lilis. Cages in the SB (Not sure if I should play Nihil Spellbomb or Surgical Extraction because I´m afraid of Lands, Jund Depths etc. But Cage is so good against elves too :-(

Mainboard: 60 Karten
14 Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker

26 Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana of the Veil

20 Lands
4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:

3 Golgari Charm
3 Disfigure
3 Spell Pierce
2 Grafdiggers Cage (Maybe Spellbomb or Surgical E. for Loam decks like Lands, Jund Depths etc)
2 Pithing Needle
1 Vendilion Qlique
1 Krosan Grip

And here version 2: The FoWless build with more removal and Pierce in the FoW slot. The FoW are in the SB and I have more space for a 2nd Grip & a 2nd Clique (which I like a lot)

Mainboard: 60 Cards
14 Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker

26 Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Disfigure

20 Lands
4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
4 Force of Will
3 Golgari Charm
2 Grafdiggers Cage (Maybe Spellbomb or Surgical E. for Loam decks like Lands, Jund Depths etc)
2 Pithing Needle
2 Vendilion Qlique
2 Krosan Grip

I´m really unsure because how I said before FoW is in the whole fair MU the 1st card which we board out and more removal is very nice against Elves, DnT, Bladedecks etc, or opposing DS...
And if I play against a unfair deck I´m not totally blank because of 3 Daze 3 Pierce 4 Hymn + 4 FoW in the SB + 2 Vendilion C.
Also I´m afraid of playing against the popular loam decks like Lands, Jund Depths and stuff like that, Cage is great against Dredge, Reanimator & Elves but it does NOTHING against Loam/P.Fire engines which is very bad.
Pierce in the FoW slot was not thaat good because most of the time I tap me out because of Hymn, Goyf, Lili and I dont have the U to cast pierce but in other situations Pierce were much better than FoW because I had no other blue card in hand or it did not made carddisadantage. Plus most of the time you have to pitch good U stuff like BS, Ponder, Delver which is double bad in my opinion, so I´m really unsure...
How I said earlier, in Germany the FoWless builds went very good the last weeks, so....

So what do you guys mean? Pleas help me sourcers ;-)

Jay_Gatz
02-11-2014, 09:41 AM
Game one you basically want to be tapping out every turn, MD spell pierce doesn't work at all with that strategy

Asthereal
02-11-2014, 10:34 AM
FoWless buids seem useable in a meta full of fair stuff. In the Netherlands, it just isn't an option. Too much TES/ANT/S&T here.

About the regular list:
I'd recommend playing 1x Cage, 1x Surgical. Surgical against Loam/Punishing Fire, Cage against Elves.
Also I'm not sure about the Peedles. 1x Sylvan Library seems nice there. Also Submerge or a 4th Pierce could be ok.
But the latter is definitely a meta thing. If you think you'll need the Peedles, I guess these are the slots for them.

grizzlegrizzle
02-11-2014, 01:06 PM
Long timer lurker, finally joined to share my resent results.

This is the list i played to 33rd (x-3) at scg Nashville. Pretty pleased with my results. after losing in rd 1, i stayed x-1 until rd 7. Ended up getting "no sir'd" on the draw offer when both of us were locked out of top 8 and into top 32 w/ a draw. Of course the opponent was on Junk Depths, so I was destroyed. I had a great time though, and did a lot better than excepted because this is first event that i have run Team America. Both Surgical and Cage were awesome out of the SB, I am unsure about library. In theory it is great, but i always found myself wanting to cast something else when i had an opportunity. I'm q'd for the invitational and have a few other opens that i am planning on playing , so any help would be appreciated.

PS. HYMN OVER THOUGHTSIEZE ALL DAY.

Matches:
rd 1 lost to 5 color cascade
rd 2 won vs ANT
rd 3 won vs ravager affinity
rd 4 won vs elves
rd 5 won vs burn
rd 6 won vs deathblade (alex bertonocini is back and he can't believe that DRS did 18 damage to him in one game:tongue:)
rd 7 lost vs ANT (opponent top 8'ed)
rd 8 won vs sneak and show
rd 9 lost vs Junk depths (i really had no idea what to do in this m/u)


14 Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker

26 Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana of the Veil

20 Lands
4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Dread of Night (was expecting a large spirit of the lab showing, and i didn't end of using it ever. This might become massacre as it has other applications)
1 Flusterstorm
1 Submerge
1 Slyvan Library
2 Golgari Charm
2 Disfigure
2 Spell Pierce
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Krosan Grip

Manipulato
02-12-2014, 07:03 AM
FoWless buids seem useable in a meta full of fair stuff. In the Netherlands, it just isn't an option. Too much TES/ANT/S&T here.

About the regular list:
I'd recommend playing 1x Cage, 1x Surgical. Surgical against Loam/Punishing Fire, Cage against Elves.
Also I'm not sure about the Peedles. 1x Sylvan Library seems nice there. Also Submerge or a 4th Pierce could be ok.
But the latter is definitely a meta thing. If you think you'll need the Peedles, I guess these are the slots for them.

Hi,
the needles are for Sneak Attack, Top, Aether Vial, Griselbrand, PW`s. I expect a lot of Miracles, so the Needle on Top is very nice because its one of they´re key cards. Also it´s very nice to lay it down on Sneak Attack because Show & Tell is more easy to handle for us with 2/3 Lilis. In my playtesting needle was super against Sneak Show.
Even against Elves you can shut down Wirewood Symbiote which can be really important especially for Disfigure, Golgari Charm...

Archangelst
02-12-2014, 02:13 PM
I wouldn't put a tremendous amount of stock in the SCGNash list being better than the "standard" list.

My SCGNash results.

Started 6-0

Round 7 - Win and in - Completely ranched by Show and Tell (this guy ended up 2nd place). Died to a Emrakul on turn 2 that was powered through a FoW both games. Nothing I could do here. Magic at its finest.

Round 8 - Win and in. I played the BUG Delver guy who top 8'd. Going in to game 3 we had 11 or 12 minutes left to finish the game and I was rushing to side and under a little pressure from him. I ended up picking up all the cards I had sided out and none of the cards I meant to side in, and putting them back in my deck. I ultimately lost to a TNN after I spent 5 turns digging for a Golgari charm (when all 3 were still in my board). He actually lost in top 8 to Elves, because of a deck reg issue. I think he had Dismember listed instead of Disfigure.

Round 9, I was the top seeded 18 pointer and had a chance (although very small) to top 8, so we played it out. We ended up going to turns and I scooped because he refused to. There weren't any extra points or money on the line, so it didn't matter. I ended up 29th and he ended up 10th (I would have been the same had I won, because 9th was a 22 pointer which was our very own resident Feline).

My swiss opponents were all strong. I played 4 of the top 8 in the swiss.

My sideboard was the only thing different than the stock list.

2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Plague
3 Disfigure
3 Golgari Charm
2 Krosan Grip
3 Spell Pierce

Manipulato
02-12-2014, 02:46 PM
I wouldn't put a tremendous amount of stock in the SCGNash list being better than the "standard" list.

Started 6-0

Round 7 - Win and in - Completely ranched by Show and Tell (this guy ended up 2nd place). Died to a Emrakul on turn 2 that was powered through a FoW both games. Nothing I could do here. Magic at its finest.

Round 8 - Win and in. I played the BUG Delver guy who top 8'd. Going in to game 3 we had 11 or 12 minutes left to finish the game and I was rushing to side and under a little pressure from him. I ended up picking up all the cards I had sided out and none of the cards I meant to side in, and putting them back in my deck. I ultimately lost to a TNN after I spent 5 turns digging for a Golgari charm (when all 3 were still in my board). He actually lost in top 8 to Elves, because of a deck reg issue. I think he had Dismember listed instead of Disfigure.

Round 9, I was the top seeded 18 pointer and had a chance (although very small) to top 8, so we played it out. We ended up going to turns and I scooped because he refused to. There weren't any extra points or money on the line, so it didn't matter. I ended up 29th and he ended up 10th (I would have been the same had I won, because 9th was a 22 pointer which was our very own resident Feline).

My swiss opponents were all strong. I played 4 of the top 8 in the swiss.

My sideboard was the only thing different than the stock list.

2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Plague
3 Disfigure
3 Golgari Charm
2 Krosan Grip
3 Spell Pierce

Gratz to the finish,
how was your boarding plans? Especially against elves or other Tier 1 decks. ..

pandaman
02-12-2014, 06:59 PM
I wouldn't put a tremendous amount of stock in the SCGNash list being better than the "standard" list.

My SCGNash results.

Started 6-0

Round 7 - Win and in - Completely ranched by Show and Tell (this guy ended up 2nd place). Died to a Emrakul on turn 2 that was powered through a FoW both games. Nothing I could do here. Magic at its finest.

Round 8 - Win and in. I played the BUG Delver guy who top 8'd. Going in to game 3 we had 11 or 12 minutes left to finish the game and I was rushing to side and under a little pressure from him. I ended up picking up all the cards I had sided out and none of the cards I meant to side in, and putting them back in my deck. I ultimately lost to a TNN after I spent 5 turns digging for a Golgari charm (when all 3 were still in my board). He actually lost in top 8 to Elves, because of a deck reg issue. I think he had Dismember listed instead of Disfigure.

Round 9, I was the top seeded 18 pointer and had a chance (although very small) to top 8, so we played it out. We ended up going to turns and I scooped because he refused to. There weren't any extra points or money on the line, so it didn't matter. I ended up 29th and he ended up 10th (I would have been the same had I won, because 9th was a 22 pointer which was our very own resident Feline).

My swiss opponents were all strong. I played 4 of the top 8 in the swiss.

My sideboard was the only thing different than the stock list.

2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Plague
3 Disfigure
3 Golgari Charm
2 Krosan Grip
3 Spell Pierce

Wow, a glowing endorsement of the deck's strength in the current meta. If you played 4 of the Top 8 in the Swiss rounds, and you only seem to have lost to the one you played in Round 8, you beat 3. Great work!

Tough break with the sideboarding error mate, condolences. I used to stuff up sideboarding a lot, too, so what I now do is shove all 15 cards into my deck, shuffle, and then pull 15 out. Then you always have the right number of cards after sideboarding, and it has the added bonus of not revealing how many cards you're bringing in. For all the opponent knows, it could be 15, or none at all!

MoonDark
02-13-2014, 07:47 AM
Hey guys,

I'm playing the standard list with Sylvan/Lili in the flex slots.

I've been having issues with Reanimator, it's a very tuff match if you don't happen to open with DrS (and be on the play).

my SB looks like:

3 Spell Pierce
3 Gogari Charm
2 Disfigure
1 Clique
1 Submerge
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Krosan Grip

Against reanimator I think that this is the best SB strategy:

-4 Abrupt Decay
-1 Sylvan Library
-1 Liliana
-1 Tomb Stalker

+1 Surgical Extraction
+1 Grafdigger's Cage
+1 Pithing Needle (against Griselbrand)
+3 Spell Pierce (can help a lot, even more if they play Show and Tell)
+1 Vendilion Clique (in case the game extends a bit)

Thoughts? how do you guys play out this match?

Asthereal
02-13-2014, 08:20 AM
I'd go -2 Stalker and keep the Lily.
Sac effects are awesome against fatty.dec! :smile:

Other than that, boarding seems spot on.
(Edit: wait, you put in Pithing Needle. I'd probably leave that out, because we lose to a 7/7 flying lifelinker anyway. Card draw doesn't usually matter.)

Darkness
02-13-2014, 09:10 AM
Hey guys,

I'm playing the standard list with Sylvan/Lili in the flex slots.

I've been having issues with Reanimator, it's a very tuff match if you don't happen to open with DrS (and be on the play).

my SB looks like:

3 Spell Pierce
3 Gogari Charm
2 Disfigure
1 Clique
1 Submerge
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Krosan Grip

Against reanimator I think that this is the best SB strategy:

-4 Abrupt Decay
-1 Sylvan Library
-1 Liliana
-1 Tomb Stalker

+1 Surgical Extraction
+1 Grafdigger's Cage
+1 Pithing Needle (against Griselbrand)
+3 Spell Pierce (can help a lot, even more if they play Show and Tell)
+1 Vendilion Clique (in case the game extends a bit)

Thoughts? how do you guys play out this match?

I would do this with your sideboard cards for Reanimator

-1 Sylvan Library
-2 Tombstalker
-4 Hymn to Tourach


The Hymns seem bad as they can help your opponent win through a discard outlet. I think Stalker is too slow in this match up and so is the library. Keeping in a the decays seem pretty powerful against reanimate dead and will destroy pithing needle on Deathrite Shaman.

Since I have 2 Liliana's MD and want the third from the board - and my Library lives in the board this is my configuration -

-2 Tombstalker
-4 Hymn to Tourach

+1 Grafdigger's Cage
+1 Liliana - this is the third from the board I run a 2-1 MDSB split
+3 Spell Pierce
+1 Vendilion Clique

MoonDark
02-13-2014, 11:14 AM
I'd go -2 Stalker and keep the Lily.
Sac effects are awesome against fatty.dec! :smile:

Other than that, boarding seems spot on.
(Edit: wait, you put in Pithing Needle. I'd probably leave that out, because we lose to a 7/7 flying lifelinker anyway. Card draw doesn't usually matter.)

The problem is that AFAIK, the sorcery speed of the liliana is not going to help with this match. If they resolve Griselbrand they will usually draw ~14 cards, and then manage to resolve an Emrakul.

Griselbrand down means death unless you have a Needle down.


I would do this with your sideboard cards for Reanimator

-1 Sylvan Library
-2 Tombstalker
-4 Hymn to Tourach


The Hymns seem bad as they can help your opponent win through a discard outlet. I think Stalker is too slow in this match up and so is the library. Keeping in a the decays seem pretty powerful against reanimate dead and will destroy pithing needle on Deathrite Shaman.

Since I have 2 Liliana's MD and want the third from the board - and my Library lives in the board this is my configuration -

-2 Tombstalker
-4 Hymn to Tourach

+1 Grafdigger's Cage
+1 Liliana - this is the third from the board I run a 2-1 MDSB split
+3 Spell Pierce
+1 Vendilion Clique

Read my comments about sorcery speed of Liliana in this match.

About the decays, the good lists aren't playing animate dead anymore. Just exhume, reanimate and the mirage instant that's awesome for animating emrakul in response to the triggered ability when it goes into the graveyard.

The hymns are better than the Decays though, if their list is packing Show & Tell (sometimes they bring them in on match 2), or if you have grafdigger's cage that's even a stronger reason to leave them in (even better if you have surgical extraction).

Darkness
02-13-2014, 11:41 AM
The problem is that AFAIK, the sorcery speed of the liliana is not going to help with this match. If they resolve Griselbrand they will usually draw ~14 cards, and then manage to resolve an Emrakul.

Griselbrand down means death unless you have a Needle down.



Read my comments about sorcery speed of Liliana in this match.

About the decays, the good lists aren't playing animate dead anymore. Just exhume, reanimate and the mirage instant that's awesome for animating emrakul in response to the triggered ability when it goes into the graveyard.

The hymns are better than the Decays though, if their list is packing Show & Tell (sometimes they bring them in on match 2), or if you have grafdigger's cage that's even a stronger reason to leave them in (even better if you have surgical extraction).

Unless you're talking about Tin Fins, a completely different archetype, I am unfamiliar with Emrakul being a standard card in reanimator lists. As far as the Show and Tell package, though it is still something they board in post board and have adopted MD their main strategy is still to reanimate as fast as they can. I can kinda see the argument of keeping hymn on the play, but definitely not on the draw, it's too slow. Our best hope of beating them is packing as much counter magic as possible and land 1 big threat or a DRS as early as possible and continuously apply pressure till they are dead. Also, though I would agree that Liliana is a poor choice if they have landed a Griselbrand and her +1 is basically dead for us. It still can be used to apply pressure and kill their fatty to push through the damage we need. Not saying it's the best card but it is an option. Abrupt Decay is live too, not all reanimator decks have given up on animate dead and again it's a great tool to kill pithing needle naming DRS or Liliana.

Sturtzilla
02-13-2014, 03:43 PM
Greetings All!

I just wanted to give a quick report! I ran the "Wiley BUG" list this week at locals going 3-1-0 and ending in 3rd of about 15-20 people. I beat UWR Miracles (2-1), ANT (2-0), and Burn (2-0). I lost to turbo Dark Depths Combo (1-2). For those not familiar, the list is as follows:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
3 Ponder
3 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
3 Flusterstorm
2 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
2 Krosan Grip
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Maelstrom Pulse

The deck felt really good overall (Let's not get into the Stifle/Daze/Spell Pierce versus Discard and Liliana debate). I dropped a game to Miracles because I didn't hit land in my game two, 7 or 6 card hands. Going to 5 was rough. Against Storm and Burn I felt in control of all 4 games, although game one against Burn was close (I ended the game at 3 life with FoW, Daze, Ponder in hand). It did seem that the interaction with the Dark Depths combo deck is a bit poor. So I will likely be trying out either Sapphire Charm, Diabolic Edict, and/or Submerge in the future. The local meta doesn't really have a large cross section of green decks, so I am not thrilled about trying out Submerge just for the mirror and the Depths combo match ups (two other players total). I am leaning toward Charm as it helps fight Dark Depths and also helps deal with Batterskulls. I have also been pretty underwhelmed with the Pulse in the sideboard... that may be the card getting cut. So those are my thoughts at the moment, if you guys have any questions or suggestions hit me up!

iamthib
02-13-2014, 05:10 PM
Hello, french player here.
I'm gonna play in GP Paris with TA. I liked the deck the minute I saw it operate and do its thing.
I love the way it jumps over the Nemesis with the Tombstalkers and charms. Nemesis is quite popular in France, especially BUG Nemesis and UWR Delver (basically what Owen T. won with in Washington). I felt like TA was really well equipped to fight those decks.

I'll play the standard list with 2 Lilianas in the soft spots. I've tested a bit with it and I like it better than one random disfigure and one random dismember for example. I prefer her cause she's not immediately a dead card when you're playing against Miracles (which is also quite popular in France) like disfigure is. In sideboard I'm gonna play this :

2 Grafdigger's Cage. I don't wanna lose to non interactive decks like Reanimator and Dredge or Storm. I feel like Cage is the best I can bring in Graveyard hate. And it provides a nice edge against Elves and random NO build. It used to be a submerge but with 4 Decay and disfigures in the side I felt like it wasn't that needed.
1 additional Liliana.
1 Krosan Grip. Good catch all.
1 Clique. Maybe two Clique is better than the additional Liliana now that I think of it ..
3 Spell Pierce
3 Disfigure
3 Golgari Charm. Card is bonkers right now.
1 Creeping Tar Pit. Okay I need a bit of advice. At first I played this card and in early testing I liked it but would only rate it "ok", not that amazing. It takes a lot of time to get online and even against Jace decks it's a bit clunky as they usually try to brainstorm into a removal for it. But I admit that it is a powerful tool. Now I've read what you guys talked about and many people are advocating for Sylvan Library. I'm very much interested in it. Could you tell me more about it ? What match up would it be great to bring it in?

Thanks. I'll do best to represent Team America (:

Asthereal
02-13-2014, 06:38 PM
The problem is that AFAIK, the sorcery speed of the liliana is not going to help with this match. If they resolve Griselbrand they will usually draw ~14 cards, and then manage to resolve an Emrakul.
I too think you confuse Tinfins and Reanimator. Regardless, a reanimated Grisel kills us even without the draws.
You want to cast the Lily when you managed to stop them from going off early. Lily just poops on Reanimator when she sticks.

Tinfins is a different story. But Tinfins is VERY unreliable. I tried it, and it loses to itself quite often. I wouldn't worry about that deck too much.

KobeBryan
02-14-2014, 03:06 PM
What do you guys think of my sideboard.

Standard list with lily and library

1 lily
2 spell pierce
1 flusterstorm
1 grafdiggers cage
2 surgical extractions
1 krosan grip
1 maelstrom pulse
3 disfigure
3 golgari charm

Expecting lots of blades and punishing, or do you think i overboarded for the matchup

Because i'm thinking if i play against a Punishing blade deck, i would bring in cage, 2 surgicals, grip, disfigure and take out the forces and maybe stalker and a hymn

if i'm playing against UWR, i bring in 3 disfigure, 3 charms, and 1 krosan grip and 1 maelstrom. I take out my library, 4 fow, a hymn, two stalkers.

What do you think

Darkness
02-14-2014, 11:55 PM
What do you guys think of my sideboard.

Standard list with lily and library

1 lily
2 spell pierce
1 flusterstorm
1 grafdiggers cage
2 surgical extractions
1 krosan grip
1 maelstrom pulse
3 disfigure
3 golgari charm

Expecting lots of blades and punishing, or do you think i overboarded for the matchup

Because i'm thinking if i play against a Punishing blade deck, i would bring in cage, 2 surgicals, grip, disfigure and take out the forces and maybe stalker and a hymn

if i'm playing against UWR, i bring in 3 disfigure, 3 charms, and 1 krosan grip and 1 maelstrom. I take out my library, 4 fow, a hymn, two stalkers.

What do you think

I would keep in Library against most fair decks, the continuous flow of card filter and card draw is very powerful. I just played a few hours of testing against my Stoneblade with TNN and found out Liliana to be extremely potent. Basically one of the only cards that was good at any point in the game. I advise to keep the Liliana's and library in. In my opinion take out dazes against the fair decks where match ups go long, it incrementally gets worse each turn not used till it is unusable.

Grand Superior
02-16-2014, 09:38 AM
Wow, Team America is by far the most represented archetype at Day two of GP Paris. Hopefully at least one of them makes the top 8.

Looooooooo
02-16-2014, 01:57 PM
Wow, Team America is by far the most represented archetype at Day two of GP Paris. Hopefully at least one of them makes the top 8.

I think it did :tongue:

- L

Grand Superior
02-16-2014, 02:02 PM
It certainly did, but what's more interesting is that none of the successful lists were the stock list with Hymns and Tombstalkers. The list that fell in the quarterfinals was a Hymn to Tourach/True-Name Nemesis list with zero Lilianas and the one in the finals (as I type this) has 2 Dark Confidants, 3/2 split of Hymn and Thoughtseize, and 3 Lilianas.

EDIT: Guess it won. Congrats to Javier!

Dragonslayer_90
02-16-2014, 03:02 PM
Deathrite Shaman and Delver of Secrets best buddies in legacy. Proud to be a Team America player at the moment. One thing I'd like to note is that while both lists didn't run tombstalker they did both run hymn to tourach. I think that this is a testament to what Deathrite Shaman has really done for the deck since the person playing TNN in there deck was not afraid of running double blue and double black spells. Deathrite Shaman just allows that deck to do so much. Previously people who have discussed the lists incorporating TNN have said the mana becomes too wonky to included both hymn and TNN, but it seems like maybe that is not the case when you have deathrite shaman in your deck. I think another discussion we should have is Dark Confidant vs. Tombstalker vs. TNN. All other creature slots are fixed but the last 2-4 slots are in flux. Is it metagame dependent or is there one creature that should be played amongst these three cards regardless of metagame conditions?

KobeBryan
02-16-2014, 04:50 PM
Glad someone was willing to put this to rest and that tombstalker isn't all too important in the deck.

As i've mentioned before, the tombstalker slot isn't 100% set in stone. It does make it slightly cluttered when you want to use deathrite but you also want to drop a big stalker.

I like the thoughtseize/hymn splits as well since it gives more action turn 2 instead of forcing us to rely on too many 2 mana costing spells. Beefs up our SFM matchup as well to pluck those annoying equipments out of the hand

Griselpuff
02-16-2014, 05:53 PM
There are certainly other options for that slot and I guess it is a metagame call. I dislike TNN/Confidant because it makes our Golgari Charms worse, but both of those cards are certainly better vs. Jace.

And hell yeah, this is such a dominant performance by the Team. I've known it's been the best deck for a while and have been championing it, so it's cool to see it be so dominant. Still, I would rather have TNN banned and perhaps a resurgence in something like EsperBlade, which TA has a lot harder time with.

KobeBryan
02-17-2014, 11:45 PM
I've been reading the BRUG forums. They are now using a new tech with bitterblossom against miracles.

Seems pretty good to beat the now resurgence miracle decks.

MoonDark
02-18-2014, 07:38 AM
I've been reading the BRUG forums. They are now using a new tech with bitterblossom against miracles.

Seems pretty good to beat the now resurgence miracle decks.

Could you link us to the conversation?

Has anyone tested Jace in the SB? Seems to be a great option (besides tarpit) against Jace itself... fight fire with fire maybe?

Manipulato
02-18-2014, 03:07 PM
Hey Guys,
so GP Paris is over and I wanted to share my experiences with you.

On Friday I played 2 Last Chance Trials (32 people)

Standard List with 2 Stalker, 2 Lili, 4 Hymn, 4 FoW, 4 Daze...

Trial 1:
I played against my buddy (Lol) with Sneak Show! We played the last days at home against each other and it stood 8:1 in my favor :wink: BUT I had bad karma and lost 1:2 against a T2 Blood Moon (with DS out) but was not able to draw my 2 Grip or my 2 Needle for his later Sneak Attack (he had only Mountain too :laugh:) Pierce was not enough. ..

Trial 2:
I came to late (after searching that fucking trial 10 minutes in the hall) and got a gameloss :mad:
In our "G2" (Elves) I crushed him with double Lili, AD, DS & Delver. In "G3" I took a mulligan to 6 and drew no Charm but 1st turn Cage & a bit of counter Backup BUT he was able to resolve Visionary + Titania (Whaat), Cradle & Insect & Hardcasted Behemoth with 20+ damage in turn 3/4!

So after those bad Games I talked to Jens Wilkens from the "Magickeller Hannover" who piloted the FoWless TA to 1st place on a 60 man turney & went in 20th place in Paris this weekend.
We discussed a lot and I saw really many fair decks around (DnT, Patriot, TA, Deathblade etc) so I decided to play a quite similar list on Saturday like he did.


FoWless Team America

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker
3 Hymn
3 Thoughtseize
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Liliana
1 Dismember

4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catcacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Golgari Charm
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
2 Envelop
2 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Liliana
1 Dismember
1 Hymn
1 Vendilion Qlique

So Day 1 I played the following games:

Round 1: Sneak Show

Here I got cheated in the 1st game and lost the 2nd with a mulligan to 6 and 1 Pierce was not enough for his 2nd turn Show & Tell with FoW Backup.

0:2 Loss

Round 2: Reanimator

I lost game one after a mulligan to 5 and he resolved turn 3 Griselbrand (me having 2 Delver & Shaman & 2 lands in play).
My one Dismember would have been my 2nd MD Lili normally and he won that game. Very close even with the mulligan to 5!
Game 2 I crushed him hard with cage, counter, discard + pressure.
Game 3 he was on the play and me keeping my following 7 (DS, Fetch, Cage, Pierce, Envelop, Thoughtseize, Brainstorm :eek:)
Cant lose with that hand right! He showed me the opposite! Turn 1 Sea, Petal, Entomb on Iona, Reanimate Iona on Black :eek: Loool! I could do nothing because I was on the draw and had no FoW in my deck. Iona on black shuts of my lili so I scooped.
By the way, the pierce would have been the FoW in my normal list :rolleyes:
I asked him if he had a counter in hand and said no...Great!

1:2 Loss

Round 3: Sneak Show (Again!)

Game 1 I resolved an early Shaman & Delver and I wasted him & played AD on his petal to screw him on 1 mana source and we had a crazy counter war because he misdirected my decay on my Delver, Daze & Pierce from my side were not enough!
So my delver died and at the end he resolved a ST into Emrakul on low life with 2 card in hand and me having deadly damage on board (if emmy were not there) so I have to draw Lili now, I draw and it was DISMEMBER Fuck, my 1:1 split punished me hard here:rolleyes:

Game 2 I killed him with pressure, discard & counter.

Game 3: I took a mulligan to 5 and was mentally out of the game, but I had a very good start and Discard + Lili to take all of his handcards & he had no combo in hand, the he resolved Sneak Attack but had no creature and I used the Lili ulti to take all his lands or his sneak and he died 1 turn later to my goyf.

2:1 Win

Round 4: Junk

Here I won 2:1 against a nice french/Chinese girl :tongue:

2:1 Win

Round 5: RUG Delver

Game 1 I faced 2 Wasteland + 1 Stifle and just died.
Game 2 I crushed him with Dismember, Liliana, double Goyf etc. .
Game 3 I took a mulligan to 6 and kept a greedy hand with 1 land & 2 Shaman on the draw, so 2 turns to draw a second land. But my Shaman got bolted and my Dual got wasted and I never draw another land :mad:

1:2 loss

So a very unlucky & bad list decision 2:3 Drop.

Fazit: Instead of facing more fair decks (which was the reason for the FoWless list) I played the first 3 rounds against combo which I lost to 2 of them. The normal standard list with 4 FoW & and 2 Liliana would have been much better for me but nobody could know that.

Funny note: Jens Wilkens went 12:3 with a very similar list in 20th place and I asked him against how much combo decks he was facing, he said 1 :laugh:

The Combo MU with 4 pierce, 4 Hymn, 3 TS & 3 Daze after boarding is not bad but in some games you just really need the FoW (especially Otd).
And if the Combo man has a T2 go off hand with FoW backup you just need the god hand otherwise you just die and I was the unlucky man not having it, thats life.

All in all the deck felt quite good especially because all loses were a 1:2 and very close or I just died to a god hand which would have been different with a FoW version.
I will definitly playing a FoW list after this experiences but the Hymns felt reallly really clunky against combo & RUG. They really shined only against Junk. Dismember was good in the fair MU, killed 2 times a Goyf with it.
Clique was a really nice SB card against all sorts of decks because flash is just super good!

Thorhammer
02-18-2014, 11:01 PM
Rotten luck my friend. Sometimes you just draw the not so good matchups. I don't think fow is really ever worth cutting. There are just too many random oops I win decks in legacy.

Manipulato
02-19-2014, 07:41 AM
Rotten luck my friend. Sometimes you just draw the not so good matchups. I don't think fow is really ever worth cutting. There are just too many random oops I win decks in legacy.

Afterwards it was a mistake but Jens Wilkens for example played against the whole fair decks all day and went 12:3, so bad karma I think...Pierce & TS were by the way really good, in combination with FoW it would have been perfect, so I will test that configuration more...

balthasar
02-20-2014, 02:32 AM
In case you haven't visited the Tournament Reports forum, check out my report titled GP Paris: 55th of 1586 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27610-GP-Paris-55th-of-1586)

Cire_dk
02-20-2014, 03:15 AM
In case you haven't visited the Tournament Reports forum, check out my report titled GP Paris: 55th of 1586 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27610-GP-Paris-55th-of-1586)

Nice report and congratz on your great finish.

grizzlegrizzle
02-20-2014, 03:08 PM
Personally, I refuse to play legacy without FOW. I just can't stomach the thought of being completely defenseless to some of the T1/T2 Combo kills.

Thorhammer
02-20-2014, 03:17 PM
So currently I have in my sideboard:

3 disfigure
3 spell pierce


I am debating about changing it to

2 disfigure
2 spell pierce
1 dismember
1 evelop/swan song/flusterstorm


Is there any merit to doing this? Dismember is virtually the same as disfigure in this deck with the added bonus of being able to straight up kill a golf on sight. With Miracles doing so well I thought envelop or swan song could be good at countering terminus and entreat. I really don't like that 2/2 bird though.

Jay_Gatz
02-21-2014, 09:06 PM
Dismember certainly isn't the same as disfigure when you're playing against a lightning bolt deck

Esper3k
02-23-2014, 10:26 AM
I've been liking Dismember myself, although I can see where Disfigure is better. I enjoy being able to kill opposing Tarmogoyfs and especially opposing Tombstalkers (in the mirror). Being able to kill a Craterhoof (with the trigger on the stack) is a nice side benefit as well.

The life loss does suck against the Burn/RUG/Patriot matchups though (although not as bad in Patriot, in my experience since they don't have as fast a clock as RUG does).

Also, it just personally makes me angry to play Disfigure in Legacy :)

Purgatory
02-23-2014, 06:50 PM
I love Disfigure, I'd play 5 if I had the room, but right now 3, with a Dismember MD.

Darkness
02-23-2014, 11:09 PM
I'm playing Submerge instead of the Dismember, I feel the loss of life is significant and almost everywhere I can use dismember, I can Submerge. Not sure which is better, I just like the tempo gain with Submerge.

Fowler
02-24-2014, 08:11 AM
I said here a lot of times that for me TNN > Stalker by far and a lot of people laugh about it. Now, Jose Manuel Fernandez made a top 8 with my list, and I hope that these will be the same result-oriented like when the other GP ends.

I wrote a primer with the 75 cards before the GP in a spanish web, maybe with google translator can understand why TNN is better, also Dismember > Disfigure

http://noticias.magicevolution.com/2014/02/10/hello-magic-lovers-im-fowler/

GP Paris was dominated by TA, and Miracles made a good result because TA was the most played deck. Another spanish player made top 8 with TA (with Tombstalkers) but got a DQ after last round.

I dont know if Dark Confidant is the way, but with bobs you can take edge in the mirror, and Javier didnt test a lot for the tournament, but he plays very well and are one of the strongers players in Spain. Anyway, Bob is a best option then Stalker too imo. I dont like Liliana in BUG, but Bob works in this reason to play the planeswalker (in the decklist of Javier, maybe is better cut both thoughtseize for add the fourth Hymn and the third Bob, but i dont test it yet)

Sorry about my english :P

Darkness
02-25-2014, 07:21 AM
Has anyone tried Javier Dominguez's list in any tournaments yet? I'm curious to see how they feel about the Bob's instead of Tombstalkers. Also, the Ponder, Hymn, and FoW cuts for the extra Lilianas and Thoughtseize. Personally I think it was a meta call to battle Deathblade TNN decks and Miracles but It seems really strong against all decks, post board you have 1 more card against combo; 4 Daze, 4 FoW, 4 Hymn, 2 Thoughtseize, 2 Spell Pierce, 1 V. Clique (17) vs. Traditional; 4 Daze, 4 FoW, 4 Hymn, 3 Spell Pierce, 1 V. Clique (16). Further more Bob seems like such great gas early on against fair decks and also can bring you back into games when you have used up all your resources. Tombstalker is obviously a great card and maybe it's just because I have nostalgia for Bob but it seems much higher impact of a card. Tombstalker needs to be answered by your opponents but Bob NEEDS to be answered by your opponents. I could be completely wrong but the list did take out 1300 people. Thoughts?

exallium
02-25-2014, 02:34 PM
Has anyone tried Javier Dominguez's list in any tournaments yet? I'm curious to see how they feel about the Bob's instead of Tombstalkers. Also, the Ponder, Hymn, and FoW cuts for the extra Lilianas and Thoughtseize. Personally I think it was a meta call to battle Deathblade TNN decks and Miracles but It seems really strong against all decks, post board you have 1 more card against combo; 4 Daze, 4 FoW, 4 Hymn, 2 Thoughtseize, 2 Spell Pierce, 1 V. Clique (17) vs. Traditional; 4 Daze, 4 FoW, 4 Hymn, 3 Spell Pierce, 1 V. Clique (16). Further more Bob seems like such great gas early on against fair decks and also can bring you back into games when you have used up all your resources. Tombstalker is obviously a great card and maybe it's just because I have nostalgia for Bob but it seems much higher impact of a card. Tombstalker needs to be answered by your opponents but Bob NEEDS to be answered by your opponents. I could be completely wrong but the list did take out 1300 people. Thoughts?

I am also very interested in people's thoughts on this. I've got a local weekly tournament in a few days, and will likely try out the list that won GP Paris.

Kowitz
02-25-2014, 03:36 PM
I need some help here gentlemen!

I've been playing this deck for a little while, and it's very powerful, and it's my favorite legacy deck I have played thus far. Anyway, I play the stock list -1 Abrupt Decay, and then in that spot, plus the 2 "flex" spots, I play 2 liliana, 1 sylvan library.

It has been pretty good for me so far, and I just want opinions on if you guys think the 4th decay is necessary? Because sometimes I feel like I want to add it in, but I LOVE playing 2 lily, and the silvan, and I just don't see cuts anywhere else. It just seems like the 4th decay is strong right now, especially with miracles making a big comeback(at least in my meta)

And this is my sideboard, I'd like some opinions!

3 Disfigure (love this card)
2 Golgari Charm (self explanatory)
2 Grafdigger's Cage (was initially only playing 1, want the second for dredge)
2 Spell Pierce (self explanatory)
2 Thoughtseize (I think bringing these In against combo helps a lot along with hymn, also good against SFM)
1 Vendilion Clique (self explanatory)
1 Krosan Grip (playing this over maelstrom pulse)
1 Life from the Loam (trying this out in place of a surgical extraction)
1 Creeping Tar Pit (has been very good against killing jace, good against miracles...etc)


Look forward to everyone's opinions. I hope to play this at SCG La next month, and I want to be really prepared for that event.

exallium
02-25-2014, 03:49 PM
I need some help here gentlemen!

I've been playing this deck for a little while, and it's very powerful, and it's my favorite legacy deck I have played thus far. Anyway, I play the stock list -1 Abrupt Decay, and then in that spot, plus the 2 "flex" spots, I play 2 liliana, 1 sylvan library.

It has been pretty good for me so far, and I just want opinions on if you guys think the 4th decay is necessary? Because sometimes I feel like I want to add it in, but I LOVE playing 2 lily, and the silvan, and I just don't see cuts anywhere else. It just seems like the 4th decay is strong right now, especially with miracles making a big comeback(at least in my meta)

And this is my sideboard, I'd like some opinions!

3 Disfigure (love this card)
2 Golgari Charm (self explanatory)
2 Grafdigger's Cage (was initially only playing 1, want the second for dredge)
2 Spell Pierce (self explanatory)
2 Thoughtseize (I think bringing these In against combo helps a lot along with hymn, also good against SFM)
1 Vendilion Clique (self explanatory)
1 Krosan Grip (playing this over maelstrom pulse)
1 Life from the Loam (trying this out in place of a surgical extraction)
1 Creeping Tar Pit (has been very good against killing jace, good against miracles...etc)


Look forward to everyone's opinions. I hope to play this at SCG La next month, and I want to be really prepared for that event.

Definitely like running loam in the board. Great against the greedy decks or anyone else attacking your land base. Thoughtseize, I haven't seen a lot (besides GP Paris results). (I've got a few flex spots in my SB so I might "borrow" some ideas). I currently run 0 seize in my board and 2 cliques, which are slower but present decks that are trying to combo off with an annoying threat.

As for AD, I really think it's necessary as a 4 of. It's our best removal spell, and just hits so many relevant targets, especially in game 1. As for what to pull out? Maybe see if you can't stick the second Liliana in the board. To be honest it's hard to make a call like that without knowing your meta and the rest of your list, though I'm sure it's quite comparable to stock lists.

I'm only a year in to the Legacy scene though, so take my advice with a grain of salt. Good luck at SCG LA =)

kiwi
02-25-2014, 04:02 PM
Hello!!! Im Jose Manuel Fernandez Castello AKA "Kiwi" , I did top 8 in the gp with the team america with Nemesis.

True Name Nemesis is a new angle of attack vs a lot of decks...

This is a list of my pairings in the gp

round 1 bye
round 2 bye
round 3 belcher lost 0-2
round 4 MUD win 2-1
Round 5 show and tell win 2-1
Round 6 OmniShow win 2-0
Round 7 Storm win 2-1
Round 8 dredge win 2-1
Round 9 Team america with tombstalkers and lilianas win 2-1
Round 10 Merfolks Lost 1-2
Round 11 Shardless Bug win 2-0
Round 12 Elves win 2-1
Round 13 Patriot win 2-1
Round 14 Deathblade win 2-0
Round 15 Rug with nemesis win 2-1

Top 8 Lost vs team America 1-2.

In the tournament I played in each round vs a different deck and the deck was very very resilent.

Here you can find a report of my adventure in gp in paris but in Spanish
http://noticias.magicevolution.com/2014/02/24/top-8-en-el-grand-prix-de-paris/

Esper3k
02-25-2014, 04:52 PM
Hello!!! Im Jose Manuel Fernandez Castello AKA "Kiwi" , I did top 8 in the gp with the team america with Nemesis.

True Name Nemesis is a new angle of attack vs a lot of decks...

This is a list of my pairings in the gp

round 1 bye
round 2 bye
round 3 belcher lost 0-2
round 4 MUD win 2-1
Round 5 show and tell win 2-1
Round 6 OmniShow win 2-0
Round 7 Storm win 2-1
Round 8 dredge win 2-1
Round 9 Team america with tombstalkers and lilianas win 2-1
Round 10 Merfolks Lost 1-2
Round 11 Shardless Bug win 2-0
Round 12 Elves win 2-1
Round 13 Patriot win 2-1
Round 14 Deathblade win 2-0
Round 15 Rug with nemesis win 2-1

Top 8 Lost vs team America 1-2.

In the tournament I played in each round vs a different deck and the deck was very very resilent.

Here you can find a report of my adventure in gp in paris but in Spanish
http://noticias.magicevolution.com/2014/02/24/top-8-en-el-grand-prix-de-paris/

Congrats on your t8 and thanks for posting! I believe you get a PT invite as well due to the size of the GP, right?

Fowler
02-25-2014, 07:04 PM
Yes, you are right, PT Atlanta

Purgatory
02-26-2014, 04:33 AM
Hello!!! Im Jose Manuel Fernandez Castello AKA "Kiwi" , I did top 8 in the gp with the team america with Nemesis.

True Name Nemesis is a new angle of attack vs a lot of decks...

This is a list of my pairings in the gp

round 1 bye
round 2 bye
round 3 belcher lost 0-2
round 4 MUD win 2-1
Round 5 show and tell win 2-1
Round 6 OmniShow win 2-0
Round 7 Storm win 2-1
Round 8 dredge win 2-1
Round 9 Team america with tombstalkers and lilianas win 2-1
Round 10 Merfolks Lost 1-2
Round 11 Shardless Bug win 2-0
Round 12 Elves win 2-1
Round 13 Patriot win 2-1
Round 14 Deathblade win 2-0
Round 15 Rug with nemesis win 2-1

Top 8 Lost vs team America 1-2.

In the tournament I played in each round vs a different deck and the deck was very very resilent.

Here you can find a report of my adventure in gp in paris but in Spanish
http://noticias.magicevolution.com/2014/02/24/top-8-en-el-grand-prix-de-paris/

Congrats!

I tried to have Chrome translate the report, and it's a hilarious read indeed :)

exallium
02-26-2014, 08:16 AM
Is there a standard list or primer for TA within this thread somewhere?

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

Purgatory
02-26-2014, 08:27 AM
As is evident from the GP Paris result, Miracle is a force to be reckoned with here in Europe at least, despite it not being a DTB by The Source's standards.

What's our board plan vs. them? I find the match-up just fine when I play RUG, but then I have Nimble Mongoose, TNN and Stifle to combat StP+Snapcaster and Terminus, and in BUG we have none of that. Sylvan Library is a complete boss in the match-up, and I find that boarding my one-of Needle vs. Top and Jace is good, as is Vendilion Clique to combat late Termini. That's as far as I've gotten though.

exallium
02-26-2014, 08:32 AM
I find abrupt decay indispensible here. From my board, I'm bringing in pulse, k grip, liliana, pierce and clique. Depending on whether you see clique and snap g1, I may bring in disfigure as well. If I know I am going to need to deal with miracles, I may even slip a winter orb into the board.

I definitely think we have the hate to hold miracles off.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

exallium
02-26-2014, 08:34 AM
And golgari charm of course.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

Purgatory
02-26-2014, 08:34 AM
Yeah, when Jund was big I played 2 Winter Orbs in the sideboard, against it and Miracles, and it's also a bomb.

exallium
02-26-2014, 08:40 AM
I don't know if orb is worth the slot right now, as I don't know what else I would bring it in against

Edit: autocorrect... Stahp

wcm8
02-26-2014, 01:43 PM
Against Miracles, the following cards are amazing:

Envelop -- counters just about all of their bombs
Golgari Charm / Abrupt Decay -- takes care of troublesome enchantments, and Charm can also regenerate your team against Supreme Verdict
Pithing Needle / Null Rod -- shuts off Sensei's Divining Top, and potentially Jace in the case of Needle. Without Top, their deck is significantly weaker
Vendilion Clique - answers the Miracle Mechanic and can assassinate a Jace they tapped out for
Creeping Tarpit -- dodges their Sorcery-speed removal
Thoughtseize -- They will typically sandbag answers, Seize deals with them proactively
Krosan Grip -- essentially uncounterable and can deal with any "big" enchantments they may bring in (Moat, Humility)
Dark Confidant -- draws out removal, but if he goes unanswered you've pretty much won the game
Sylvan Library -- you can be pretty reckless with your life total in this matchup
Winter Orb -- really screws up their plans
Liliana of the Veil -- Her +1 is game winning here, and eventually the Ultimate is relevant too

Grand Superior
02-26-2014, 07:33 PM
If Miracles is big in your meta, play three Liliana of the Veil in your 75 and strongly consider playing two maindeck. Most Miracles players I know agree that she is one of the biggest problems for the deck because she single-handedly wrecks their gameplan and they have very few good answers to a resolved one.

Darkness
02-26-2014, 09:45 PM
If Miracles is big in your meta, play three Liliana of the Veil in your 75 and strongly consider playing two maindeck. Most Miracles players I know agree that she is one of the biggest problems for the deck because she single-handedly wrecks their gameplan and they have very few good answers to a resolved one.

Every time I ultimated a Liliana of the Veil against miracles I have won, even stick her turn 2 and ripping their hand apart makes her a huge threat.

exallium
02-27-2014, 08:46 AM
If Miracles is big in your meta, play three Liliana of the Veil in your 75 and strongly consider playing two maindeck. Most Miracles players I know agree that she is one of the biggest problems for the deck because she single-handedly wrecks their gameplan and they have very few good answers to a resolved one.

This is what I do. I also run 2 Golgari Charm, 2 Pulse, 3 Pierce, 1 Clique in the board, which are also all great vs Miracles.

YamiJoey
02-27-2014, 10:04 AM
Bitterblossom. No one card has ever done so much damage to me whilst playing competitively. My BUG opponent cast it on T3/4 and didn't cast another Spell for around another 8 turns, discarding EoT at one point, then following up woth a Lili later on. BB and Winter Orb are my least favourite cards to see. A very early Krosan Grip on Top could be bad, but it has literally never happened to me, and stuff that costs 3 is not high on my list of things I'm scared of from a deck playing 19-20 Lands, 4 of which are Wastes.

I find RUG a cakewalk, and UWR just requires more practice. With BUG it feels like I'm in on RiPing you apart and then trying to fight your non-Creature bombs from there, or just losing. You don't waste your time on too much LD unless a Hymn happens to hit Lands and I have to find a Tundra/Volc for some reason.

exallium
02-27-2014, 10:06 AM
What do we think about our matchup against blood moon?

I feel like our only outs are either countering it before it even hits the field, or have the right amount/kind of mana and an AD / Charm in hand, given that we don't run basics (or have a couple DRS on the board)

Razorwynd
02-27-2014, 12:10 PM
What do we think about our matchup against blood moon?

I feel like our only outs are either countering it before it even hits the field, or have the right amount/kind of mana and an AD / Charm in hand, given that we don't run basics (or have a couple DRS on the board)

Thoughtseize also helps a bit (for some reason I always seem to find reasons to justify playing thoughtseize over hymn)

exallium
02-27-2014, 12:19 PM
I think with painter making more headway, thoughtseize could def see more play in this list.

Kowitz
02-27-2014, 12:52 PM
How are you guys boarding against UWR delver, seems like a tough matchup for me. Batterskull is good. I have Thoughtseize and Krosan grip in the board. Along with disfigure. It seems like it should be an easy matchup, but I have troubles. In fact, if I post my board, would the experts with this deck mind giving me a better basic boarding strategy against the decks I usually see(UWR delver, miracles, storm, jund, DnT...basically the top tier decks)

Stock list and my board is:

3 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
2 Spell pierce
2 thoughtseize
2 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Life from the Loam
1 Krosan Grip
1 Creeping Tar Pit

The main deck is so solid, but I usually find myself boarding out force of will and or daze. Is that incorrect?

exallium
02-27-2014, 01:41 PM
How are you guys boarding against UWR delver, seems like a tough matchup for me. Batterskull is good. I have Thoughtseize and Krosan grip in the board. Along with disfigure. It seems like it should be an easy matchup, but I have troubles. In fact, if I post my board, would the experts with this deck mind giving me a better basic boarding strategy against the decks I usually see(UWR delver, miracles, storm, jund, DnT...basically the top tier decks)

Stock list and my board is:

3 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
2 Spell pierce
2 thoughtseize
2 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Life from the Loam
1 Krosan Grip
1 Creeping Tar Pit

The main deck is so solid, but I usually find myself boarding out force of will and or daze. Is that incorrect?

Using your list, I'd want to bring in:

1 Grip (Batterskull)
3 Disfigure (Delver, Stoneforge)
2 Golgari Charm (Unflipped Delver, TNN)
2 Thoughtseize (Picks off equipment)
1 Vendilion Clique (Resp. to Stoneforge activation)
---
9 Cards.

Game 2:
Out (depends on your main deck):
4 FOW (Not good in fair matchups)
4 Daze (Being replaced with relevant removal, but our opponent will often continue playing around them)
1 Ponder (You've got a third disfigure =P)

Game 3:
Honestly, if you are on the play, I'd bring in a few dazes here, if he saw them first game, didn't see them second game,
he may not be expecting them third game, and thus you might be able to catch him off guard. We will have the blue up
to cast it, and can be proactive with delver or thoughtseize as well.

DEPENDING ON WHAT I SEE MANA-WISE I would consider Life from the Loam, but we're already taking out a LOT of cards.
We're running 4 wastelands, and, if their base is greedy enough, we may be able to strip them off a choice colour for good.
It also can help quickly get up to a point where we can slam Tombstalker, which they really only have one way (STP) to deal with.
Tombstalker is great because naked, he just outruns TNN.

To answer your other question, I do think that boarding out FOW and some number of Dazes is correct. Your opponent will
naturally start to play around Daze, and you can really mess them up by not having it in there, and just packing more removal.
FOW is honestly pretty bad in this matchup, as it is in all fair matchups. It might keep them off of a TNN, but Golgari Charm kills
it just as well.

Kowitz
02-27-2014, 02:03 PM
That is basically how I have been playing, but I also boarded out one tombstalker, because if I can't deal with rest in peace early enough, he is just a dead card.

Water_Wizard
02-27-2014, 02:27 PM
If Miracles is big in your meta, play three Liliana of the Veil in your 75 and strongly consider playing two maindeck. Most Miracles players I know agree that she is one of the biggest problems for the deck because she single-handedly wrecks their gameplan and they have very few good answers to a resolved one.


Every time I ultimated a Liliana of the Veil against miracles I have won, even stick her turn 2 and ripping their hand apart makes her a huge threat.

Maybe I'm on my own here, but I usually find the Liliana is weak vs. Miracles. Miracles can play off of the top of their deck, so Liliana's +1 usually hurts us more (makes us discard counterspells). I guess it depends if Liliana hits early or later. In my experience, by the time she hits the board, they are using top to play off the top of their deck and the +1 isn't really good.


How are you guys boarding against UWR delver

It's tough to say without seeing your whole list. Liliana is key in this match-up. If you can stick Liliana and keep her in play for two turns, it's almost always GG. Patriot is pretty threat-light (4 Delvers, 2-4 TNN, and Batterskull - SFM isn't a traditional threat). Therefore, if you can make Patriot sacrifice one or two threats, it is very unlikely that they will recover. Just watch out for Spell Pierce and Lightning Bolt.

Exallium's advice is solid.

exallium
02-27-2014, 02:44 PM
Maybe I'm on my own here, but I usually find the Liliana is weak vs. Miracles. Miracles can play off of the top of their deck, so Liliana's +1 usually hurts us more (makes us discard counterspells). I guess it depends if Liliana hits early or later. In my experience, by the time she hits the board, they are using top to play off the top of their deck and the +1 isn't really good.



It's tough to say without seeing your whole list. Liliana is key in this match-up. If you can stick Liliana and keep her in play for two turns, it's almost always GG. Patriot is pretty threat-light (4 Delvers, 2-4 TNN, and Batterskull - SFM isn't a traditional threat). Therefore, if you can make Patriot sacrifice one or two threats, it is very unlikely that they will recover. Just watch out for Spell Pierce and Lightning Bolt.

Exallium's advice is solid.

I feel like Liliana can get you ahead in Miracles. I find what's really important is to assess your opponent's game plan (Helm combo or Entreat) and then play to it. I think your most key cards here are things like spell pierce and vendilion clique, as well as of course, abrupt decay. Clique can shut down a miracles card before he even has a chance to play it, and decay can keep him off Counter top lock, off RIP, and can take out tops if you wait for the activation. Spell pierce also counters almost every spell in their deck, sometimes everything, depending on the build (if it's creatureless). They're casting a lot of large spells, so that 2 mana tax can really hurt them when it counts.

That being said, I'm happy I have 3 lili's available for this matchup. If you can keep them off top, you've got a good chance of winning a topdeck war, as long as you're properly suited against their locks.

One of the biggest things here, is don't remove too many of your threats. They play planeswalkers, enchantments, sorcerys, and instants, all which can help quickly make goyf big and strong in a hurry. Tombstalker is basically dead and should come out for better reactive spells and removal.

Kowitz
02-27-2014, 02:45 PM
I'll post my whole list.(it's a pretty stock list) But the deck feels so powerful. Just need more practice side boarding.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Abrupt Decay(might go to 4, cutting either a liliana, or library)
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

SB:

3 Disfigure
2 Grafdiggers Cage
2 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
2 Golgari Charm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Life from the Loam
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Krosan Grip

exallium
02-27-2014, 02:53 PM
I'll post my whole list.(it's a pretty stock list) But the deck feels so powerful. Just need more practice side boarding.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Abrupt Decay(might go to 4, cutting either a liliana, or library)
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

SB:

3 Disfigure
2 Grafdiggers Cage
2 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
2 Golgari Charm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Life from the Loam
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Krosan Grip

My List is very close to this, but I do not run Library in my 75, I run the 4th decay instead. I also run one extra fetch over the 4th underground sea. My board is different as well:

2 Disfigure
2 Cage
3 Spell Pierce
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Life from the Loam
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Golgari Charm

Purgatory
02-27-2014, 03:25 PM
Play tested a lot vs Miracles yesterday and today, and I have a rather depressing 6-9 result to show for it. I think I might be doing something wrong, but it's always the same scenario:

- I come out of the gates strong with a Delver flying in for 6-9 damage (I even use Brainstorm to flip these regularly, something I almost never do vs other decks)
- He finds Plow or Terminus.
- I deploy a new Goyf, Delver or TNN/Tombstalker.
- Cue infinite Plows, Termini, Snappys etc.
- He's on like 5 with 8 basic lands in play, casts Jace.
- I lose.

My boarding
-4 Daze
-4 Hymn (this is probably incorrect, but it seems to me like Miracles is too good at playing from the top.)
+3 Spell Pierce
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Vendilion Clique
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Creeping Tar Pit


Any and all help in this matchup is much appreciated!

Water_Wizard
02-27-2014, 03:37 PM
My main deck is a little different because I run TNN over Tombstalker. I also run a 3rd TNN in the board. Vs. Miracles or Patriot, I side out 'Goyf and I rely on TNN, Delver, and DRS to get the job done.

I understand what people are saying about not diluting threats. Goyf can be a huge beater and can close out games rather quickly. However, Goyf, DRS, and Tombstalker (for those who run it), make RiP too powerful, imo. Therefore, I decrease my dependence upon the graveyard by removing 'Goyf and electing not to run Tombstalker.

You definitely need to leave Hymn in - the major reason being that you can cast it early on and hit lands. This game is a race and if Miracles can make it to the mid-game, every turn thereafter, the tides are shifting in their favor. You really need to win the game by turn 8-9 or else it is going to get progressively more difficult.

The Miracles/Team America match up is difficult for Team America (I'd say 45/55 against us). Nitewolf ran Sinkhole out of the board to combat Miracles. Stifle is great vs. Miracles, but current TA lists don't run it.

The secret to our success is to 1) prevent Miracle's mana development (Hymn to Tourach is our best card for this, other than Liliana ultimate); and 2) Deploy threats intelligently. Don't be afraid to ping with a DRS for 1 a turn until you force them to handle it. Generally, 1 threat at a time is correct to diminish the effectiveness of Terminus and Supreme Verdict.

exallium
02-27-2014, 03:40 PM
Play tested a lot vs Miracles yesterday and today, and I have a rather depressing 6-9 result to show for it. I think I might be doing something wrong, but it's always the same scenario:

- I come out of the gates strong with a Delver flying in for 6-9 damage (I even use Brainstorm to flip these regularly, something I almost never do vs other decks)
- He finds Plow or Terminus.
- I deploy a new Goyf, Delver or TNN/Tombstalker.
- Cue infinite Plows, Termini, Snappys etc.
- He's on like 5 with 8 basic lands in play, casts Jace.
- I lose.

My boarding
-4 Daze
-4 Hymn (this is probably incorrect, but it seems to me like Miracles is too good at playing from the top.)
+3 Spell Pierce
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Vendilion Clique
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Creeping Tar Pit


Any and all help in this matchup is much appreciated!

I like hymn in this matchup. It hits basic lands, it's a 2 for 1, and it gets all the more valuable if he has a rip in play. Not to mention, you're going to see a good amount of mana, given you're playing a control deck. Not to mention, against Miracles, needle + discard is amazing, because if you get them topdecking, they can't do so efficiently.

Miracles is such a good deck because it can generally play to any other deck's weaknesses, as long as the pilot is competent and understands how your deck works.

As for what you're bringing in... more Golgari Charm. Hits Moat, Humility, RIP, Counterbalance, and any other enchantment you need it to hit. I generally like to save it for the first two, because they are out of the range of Abrupt Decay. Maybe pull out Tombstalkers? RIP kind of shuts that line of play down. Goyfs are far easier to recover, size-wise, and generally he's not going to have the blockers to deal with them.

EDIT: Intelligent deployment, as Water_Wizard says, kind of nails this matchup on the head. Miracles is a very unforgiving deck, and you need to make sure you think about every card you're utilizing. Know their wincons, know what to keep them off, don't waste your clique, know how it interacts with miracle trigger, keep soft pressure, but keep pressure. As long as you plan your moves and sus out what you're up against, you can def increase your odds of coming out on top.

Griselpuff
02-27-2014, 03:40 PM
It's not a great match-up but I certainly feel fine. You just want a few big creatures and also avoid overcommitting. I would side out 2 drs, 4 daze and a bayou for pierce/clique/library/grip/charm. You need to be ready to play the long game as they have a ton of things to get through. I still really like hymn as it buys a ton of time versus jace.

Manipulato
02-27-2014, 03:40 PM
Play tested a lot vs Miracles yesterday and today, and I have a rather depressing 6-9 result to show for it. I think I might be doing something wrong, but it's always the same scenario:

- I come out of the gates strong with a Delver flying in for 6-9 damage (I even use Brainstorm to flip these regularly, something I almost never do vs other decks)
- He finds Plow or Terminus.
- I deploy a new Goyf, Delver or TNN/Tombstalker.
- Cue infinite Plows, Termini, Snappys etc.
- He's on like 5 with 8 basic lands in play, casts Jace.
- I lose.

My boarding
-4 Daze
-4 Hymn (this is probably incorrect, but it seems to me like Miracles is too good at playing from the top.)
+3 Spell Pierce
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Vendilion Clique
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Creeping Tar Pit


Any and all help in this matchup is much appreciated!

Depending on the boarding strategy of the Miracles player.
Some Miracle players (Phillip Schönegger the GP Paris Top 8er) for example boards out all Balance & doesnt board in RIP to blank AD completly! So in such a scenario it would be right to board out all 4 AD and bring Krosan Grip against Top. I would also not board out all 4 Hymn, because they play a lot of removal & Counterspells which Hymn can catch first and after that landing your creatures. ..

Greetings

exallium
02-27-2014, 03:44 PM
Depending on the boarding strategy of the Miracles player.
Some Miracle players (Phillip Schönegger the GP Paris Top 8er) for example boards out all Balance & doesnt board in RIP to blank AD completly! So in such a scenario it would be right to board out all 4 AD and bring Krosan Grip against Top. I would also not board out all 4 Hymn, because they play a lot of removal & Counterspells which Hymn can catch first and after that landing your creatures. ..

Greetings

This is why you should ALWAYS go back to the board G3 ;)

Purgatory
02-27-2014, 03:44 PM
Thanks guys, it seems the biggest mistake I did was siding out Hymn.

I generally only played 1 threat at a time, the only time I deployed more than one was late game, after a Terminus or two, and if it put him on a one-turn clock instead of two.

I run TNN MD right now, so no Charms in the side.


Edit: my testing partner was running Einherjer's GP Paris list, with this board plan:


Ok the basic plan against TA is boarding out:

-3 Counterbalance
-1 Vendilion Clique
-4 Force of Will
+2 Engineered Explosives
+1 Disenchant
+1 Counterspell
+1 Supreme Verdict
+3 Flusterstorm ( you can also split Fluster/REB depending on whether you expect Nemesis or not)

This way you blank their RIP/Balance-Hate while having enough ressources to fight over Hymn or their Counters on our Jace/Angel. It has worked out very well in testing and I went undefeated in both matches and games at the GP.

Greetings

And I suspected this, but didn't dare to side out any Decays, for fear of RiPs. The only thing they did in post-board games (which were awful, I won the pre-board games 4-2, and then it went very downhill) was killing random Snapcasters trying to block Goyf.

Einherjer
02-27-2014, 04:02 PM
Allow me to drop a few words on your game against Miracles?

Thanks.

1) Liliana of the Veil: Lilly never wins you games against Miracles. But, and this is the important part: It interferes with our gameplan. So it is a very potent card for disruption Miracles, yet you shouldnt rely too heavily on it. Be sure you know when to +1 her. Lilliana on an empty board isn't where you want to be. You want her to follow up a threat of yours. When you deploy it on an empty board Miracles will just play from its top3 and outclass you in a certain time.

2) The most efficient hatecards are Enchantments/Artifacts. Make sure to pack some of those, if you plan on having an even-MU against Miracles. Choose from Sylvan Library, Pithing Needle, Null Rod and Winter Orb. It's been quite a time since I last played TA - so I am not too sure which one is ideal for an open metagame - but make sure to have some of those, Lilly + creatures won't cut it.

3) Miracle can go many direction when approaching this MU, against some ways Charm+Decay are gamebreaking, wherewas they are worthless cards against my boardingplan. So make sure to know what plan your opponent is on. Signs that your opponent is on the plan where you want Charm/Decay are MB cards like: E-Tutor, D-Sphere, Stoneforge Mystic....

4) Don't board out FoW. I see most here agree on this but some still do this. Just don't.

5) Don't overcommit on the board when you don't have to. But make sure to know when it's time to throw everything you have onto the board. I often see people missing this oppurtunity, cause theyve been told to play 1 creature only.

6) Don't FoW the removal on your creatures - keep it for Miracles gamewinners.

Okay so those were just a few points, many may have been obvious and stuff- but I hope some found it helpful. I'll cover this (and the other important) MUs in my next article in depth - though from a different angle - but it might still be interesting.

Greetings

Purgatory
02-27-2014, 04:06 PM
Thanks, Einherjer! The only rule I broke from that list was FoWing StP, which I felt was justified in some circumstances, like when it's my last threat and I don't have any cantrips on hand, for example.

Einherjer
02-27-2014, 04:11 PM
Thanks, Einherjer! The only rule I broke from that list was FoWing StP, which I felt was justified in some circumstances, like when it's my last threat and I don't have any cantrips on hand, for example.

You're welcome!

And yes, every rule has its exceptions. Though I'd still rather wait for more Cantrips/Creatures than lose to the Jace/Entreat Miracle has been floating all day.

Greetings

Purgatory
02-27-2014, 04:20 PM
You're welcome!

And yes, every rule has its exceptions. Though I'd still rather wait for more Cantrips/Creatures than lose to the Jace/Entreat Miracle has been floating all day.

Greetings

Sure, that's also quite true. I guess it's difficult to take these situations out of context, but when it came up, a couple of times in our 15 games, I judged that I wanted to be the aggressor and not get stuck in top deck mode vs the top "top deck" deck.

My complete side, by the way: (MD is bog BUG standard with Lilly, Library and 2 TNN over Tombstalker)

3 Spell Pierce
2 Disfigure
2 Thoughtseize
2 Marsh Casualties
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Dismember
1 Grafdiffer's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Creeping Tar Pit

I am thinking:
-4 Daze
-1 Decay
-1 ? (DRS?)
+3 Spell Pierce, Clique, Needle, Tar Pit

Manipulato
02-27-2014, 04:26 PM
Allow me to drop a few words on your game against Miracles?

Thanks.

1) Liliana of the Veil: Lilly never wins you games against Miracles. But, and this is the important part: It interferes with our gameplan. So it is a very potent card for disruption Miracles, yet you shouldnt rely too heavily on it. Be sure you know when to +1 her. Lilliana on an empty board isn't where you want to be. You want her to follow up a threat of yours. When you deploy it on an empty board Miracles will just play from its top3 and outclass you in a certain time.

2) The most efficient hatecards are Enchantments/Artifacts. Make sure to pack some of those, if you plan on having an even-MU against Miracles. Choose from Sylvan Library, Pithing Needle, Null Rod and Winter Orb. It's been quite a time since I last played TA - so I am not too sure which one is ideal for an open metagame - but make sure to have some of those, Lilly + creatures won't cut it.

3) Miracle can go many direction when approaching this MU, against some ways Charm+Decay are gamebreaking, wherewas they are worthless cards against my boardingplan. So make sure to know what plan your opponent is on. Signs that your opponent is on the plan where you want Charm/Decay are MB cards like: E-Tutor, D-Sphere, Stoneforge Mystic....

4) Don't board out FoW. I see most here agree on this but some still do this. Just don't.

5) Don't overcommit on the board when you don't have to. But make sure to know when it's time to throw everything you have onto the board. I often see people missing this oppurtunity, cause theyve been told to play 1 creature only.

6) Don't FoW the removal on your creatures - keep it for Miracles gamewinners.

Okay so those were just a few points, many may have been obvious and stuff- but I hope some found it helpful. I'll cover this (and the other important) MUs in my next article in depth - though from a different angle - but it might still be interesting.

Greetings

The part with Lili is true, I played Miracles in the past too and everytime I faced Lili (1 time BGW NicFit & BUG Control & TA) I won because I smashed Entreat 1 Turn before the finisher Eot with Top or I could easily rebuild my board because of Top/Jace etc...She's good in combination with pressure or other hate cards but not a autolose on a empty board.

Kowitz
02-28-2014, 02:39 AM
Thanks for the help everyone! I think I am going to try moving my 2nd liliana from the main, to the board, so I can put the 4th abrupt decay in the main. Then cut both Thoughtseize, and place the lily and a null rod in their place.

toletole
02-28-2014, 08:33 AM
What about Extirpate agains Miracles? It's been a while since I don't play this deck, but I remembered some games where taking StP made my life much easier. They need to find Terminus/Supreme Veredict or die basically. Also is very good if you are bringing Creeping Tar Pit against them.

Just my 2 cents.

exallium
02-28-2014, 08:53 AM
Thank you miracles players! It's great to see cross-communication like this. It can help make us all better players.

Personally, I'm going to be on the prowl for a Null Rod to toss into my "don't trade stuff from here" binder, so I can try working it into my board. Great against stoneforge and counter-top based decks, great against MUD, and just shuts down Affinity (Artifact lands FTL)

exallium
02-28-2014, 09:12 AM
What about Extirpate agains Miracles? It's been a while since I don't play this deck, but I remembered some games where taking StP made my life much easier. They need to find Terminus/Supreme Veredict or die basically. Also is very good if you are bringing Creeping Tar Pit against them.

Just my 2 cents.

Extripate is a good card, and has a lot of use in a bunch of different matchups, albeit a turn slower than Surgical Extraction (but almost uncounterable). Given our mana base is built to curve off at 3/4 instead of 2 like RUG delver (and, you know, access to black mana), extripate is easier for us to cast without it getting in the way of whatever else we want to do that turn.

However, between Extirpate and Surgical Extraction, I'll take SE every time. Why? Because it can catch people off-guard. It's harder for people to play around if you don't have land up, and can still cast into it. Also, turn zero plays. Imagine situations like this:

You're playing against sneak and show. They're on the play. You have FOW, Daze, and SE in hand. They go petal -> sol land -> Show and Tell. You fow the Show and Tell, pitching daze, and, at the end of the turn, SE their show and tell. You've now taken them off an entire line of play, before dropping a land. This isn't magical christmas land, you just managed to have FOW and SE and a blue card.

Similarly, against Reanimator, with just an SE. T1 USea, Petal -> Entomb for <Insert big thing here> -> Reanimate. You SE in response and call it a day (pending no countermagic backup).

So... I guess what I'm trying to say here is that Extirpate is harder to counter, but easier to play around, while SE is easier to counter, but harder to play around, and can sometimes prevent you from just losing on turn zero to some nut draw.

-----------

All that said and done, I've been packing things more along the lines of Cage and Nihil Spellbomb. I find with our available countermagic suit, we are fairly resilient to these types of shenanigans, and can deal with them in full when necessary (e.g. holding off mr. reanimator with a force and following up with a cage or spellbomb)

toletole
02-28-2014, 09:33 AM
Extripate is a good card, and has a lot of use in a bunch of different matchups, albeit a turn slower than Surgical Extraction (but almost uncounterable). Given our mana base is built to curve off at 3/4 instead of 2 like RUG delver (and, you know, access to black mana), extripate is easier for us to cast without it getting in the way of whatever else we want to do that turn.

However, between Extirpate and Surgical Extraction, I'll take SE every time. Why? Because it can catch people off-guard. It's harder for people to play around if you don't have land up, and can still cast into it. Also, turn zero plays. Imagine situations like this:

You're playing against sneak and show. They're on the play. You have FOW, Daze, and SE in hand. They go petal -> sol land -> Show and Tell. You fow the Show and Tell, pitching daze, and, at the end of the turn, SE their show and tell. You've now taken them off an entire line of play, before dropping a land. This isn't magical christmas land, you just managed to have FOW and SE and a blue card.

Similarly, against Reanimator, with just an SE. T1 USea, Petal -> Entomb for <Insert big thing here> -> Reanimate. You SE in response and call it a day (pending no countermagic backup).

So... I guess what I'm trying to say here is that Extirpate is harder to counter, but easier to play around, while SE is easier to counter, but harder to play around, and can sometimes prevent you from just losing on turn zero to some nut draw.

-----------

All that said and done, I've been packing things more along the lines of Cage and Nihil Spellbomb. I find with our available countermagic suit, we are fairly resilient to these types of shenanigans, and can deal with them in full when necessary (e.g. holding off mr. reanimator with a force and following up with a cage or spellbomb)

Wow thanks! That was very clear explanation!.

So what do you think about bringing in SE against Miracles? It seems good with Hymn and I truly belive that if you can rip off their StP they are in serious trouble as you have Golgari Charm for Supreme Veredict and you can save your FoW to Terminus/Entreat.

Einherjer
02-28-2014, 09:39 AM
Boarding Surgical Extraction against Controldecks has been a long discussed topic, for both, BUG and RUG. Yes, you can construct scenarios where Extraction will rip apart the UW Players plan, leaving him with nothing and you with everything. But built scenarios like this are not the rule. Look at it this way:

Would you bring in a card, that does neither protect your creatures nor applies pressure?

Would you bring in a card that are fantastic one out of 10 times? And suck most of the time?

Would you bring in another card that is dead to a Rest in Peace?

Would you bring in another card that can be outplayed by Snapcaster Mage? (Yet I am aware you should be playing it in response to Snapcaster - but what if you want to protect your creature you plan to cast and pre-emptively SE the removal? - well then youre fucked)

Would you bring in a card that isn't good most of the time, and even if it is, only hits one removal out of many? Miracles can have: Swords to Plowshares, Terminus, Supreme Verdict, Engineered Explosives, Red Elemental Blast, Path to Exile and/or Prophrory Nodes?


Short answer to all this questions: NO.

You want cards that either apply pressure, disrupt your opponent or protect your own gameplan. You don't want cards that are good once you Hymned the opponent or whatever. You want real cards.

I hope I could help you with your decision.

Greetings

exallium
02-28-2014, 09:43 AM
Boarding Surgical Extraction against Controldecks has been a long discussed topic, for both, BUG and RUG. Yes, you can construct scenarios where Extraction will rip apart the UW Players plan, leaving him with nothing and you with everything. But built scenarios like this are not the rule. Look at it this way:

Would you bring in a card, that does neither protect your creatures nor applies pressure?

Would you bring in a card that are fantastic one out of 10 times? And suck most of the time?

Would you bring in another card that is dead to a Rest in Peace?

Would you bring in another card that can be outplayed by Snapcaster Mage? (Yet I am aware you should be playing it in response to Snapcaster - but what if you want to protect your creature you plan to cast and pre-emptively SE the removal? - well then youre fucked)

Would you bring in a card that isn't good most of the time, and even if it is, only hits one removal out of many? Miracles can have: Swords to Plowshares, Terminus, Supreme Verdict, Engineered Explosives, Red Elemental Blast, Path to Exile and/or Prophrory Nodes?


Short answer to all this questions: NO.

You want cards that either apply pressure, disrupt your opponent or protect your own gameplan. You don't want cards that are good once you Hymned the opponent or whatever. You want real cards.

I hope I could help you with your decision.

Greetings

I think a key point I was about to make was "You don't want cards that are good once you Hymned the opponent." Also, yes, RIP is a huge issue. If that hymn was a thoughtseize, maybe, but we are then 2 for 1'ing ourselves vs the control player. Hymn's value rises with rest in peace, as it permanently removes cards, while SE becomes a dead card.

kiwi
02-28-2014, 09:54 AM
I am thinking:
-4 Daze
-1 Decay
-1 ? (DRS?)
+3 Spell Pierce, Clique, Needle, Tar Pit

Against some pairings (wich dont play wastelands) in my opinion is correct to sideboarding out a land if you need to put a lot of sideboard cards in the main deck, for example against miracles, i would sideboarding out the second bayou or the second tropical island (Depeding on your land configuration) but in your case if you sideboard in tar pit, i would sideboarding out 1 underground sea, I think that this is better than sideboarding out a DRS.

toletole
02-28-2014, 10:03 AM
Seems fair enough.
Thanks :D

Barbed Blightning
02-28-2014, 01:37 PM
Boarding Surgical Extraction against Controldecks has been a long discussed topic, for both, BUG and RUG. Yes, you can construct scenarios where Extraction will rip apart the UW Players plan, leaving him with nothing and you with everything. But built scenarios like this are not the rule. Look at it this way:

Would you bring in a card, that does neither protect your creatures nor applies pressure?

Would you bring in a card that are fantastic one out of 10 times? And suck most of the time?

Would you bring in another card that is dead to a Rest in Peace?

Would you bring in another card that can be outplayed by Snapcaster Mage? (Yet I am aware you should be playing it in response to Snapcaster - but what if you want to protect your creature you plan to cast and pre-emptively SE the removal? - well then youre fucked)

Would you bring in a card that isn't good most of the time, and even if it is, only hits one removal out of many? Miracles can have: Swords to Plowshares, Terminus, Supreme Verdict, Engineered Explosives, Red Elemental Blast, Path to Exile and/or Prophrory Nodes?


Short answer to all this questions: NO.

You want cards that either apply pressure, disrupt your opponent or protect your own gameplan. You don't want cards that are good once you Hymned the opponent or whatever. You want real cards.

I hope I could help you with your decision.

Greetings

Great points all around.

While I am a D&T player exclusively right now, I used to play TA and miss it more than the other UXx Tempo decks I played throughout last year. I figured, since I caught SE being discussed, I'd chime in with a quick story:

I was playing D&T against Fish a month or so ago. Game one was close and he was obviously tilted, since his Thassa (God of the Fuck You Doing in Legacy?) had failed to do anything relevant at all.

Game two he (correctly) FoWs my Vial. He then (incorrectly) extracts it from my yard. None in hand, leaving me with six and him at three (no first turn plays).

I proceed to beat the crap out of him with Sword of Fire and Ice + Batterskull off my turn-two SFM.

Anyway, no real new data there, just wanted to give an example of surgical extraction blowing up miserably in one's face.

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

KobeBryan
02-28-2014, 02:07 PM
Great points all around.

While I am a D&T player exclusively right now, I used to play TA and miss it more than the other UXx Tempo decks I played throughout last year. I figured, since I caught SE being discussed, I'd chime in with a quick story:

I was playing D&T against Fish a month or so ago. Game one was close and he was obviously tilted, since his Thassa (God of the Fuck You Doing in Legacy?) had failed to do anything relevant at all.

Game two he (correctly) FoWs my Vial. He then (incorrectly) extracts it from my yard. None in hand, leaving me with six and him at three (no first turn plays).

I proceed to beat the crap out of him with Sword of Fire and Ice + Batterskull off my turn-two SFM.

Anyway, no real new data there, just wanted to give an example of surgical extraction blowing up miserably in one's face.

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

The real question is why would he play surgical against D&T.

Barbed Blightning
02-28-2014, 03:53 PM
The real question is why would he play surgical against D&T.

Also a fair question

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

Purgatory
03-02-2014, 05:06 AM
Played my TNN list to an awful 2-3 result yesterday. Lost vs Grixis Delver Pyromancer (close games, my opponent said he had the nuts every time), Pox (uuuuuugh), and Burn (won game one after DRS giving me 6 life).

I still think TNN is pretty good.

Esper3k
03-02-2014, 12:02 PM
I'm experimenting a bit with TNN myself (playing a 1/1 TNN / Tombstalker split right now).

My problem with Tombstalker (I do love that guy!) is that we seem to board him out in pretty much every matchup. Control, any deck with RIP, Combo... he only seems to stay in post-board against the non-white fair decks.

Of course, I do despise making my Golgari Charms worse by playing TNN, but TNN was pretty good for me the couple times I played him so far. More testing is required, of course.

Also, anyone have any tips on the Painter matchup? My meta's starting to get infested with those, so I figured I'd pick some brains and see what people thought on it.

When sideboarding, I'm really torn on Hymn to Tourach vs Painter. On one hand, they play that terrible Stompy manabase, so they're fairly inconsistent, but BB vs a deck that runs a bunch of Blood Moons seems rough.

Thorhammer
03-02-2014, 12:35 PM
Play sneak and show.

Jk. Keep a fow handy for their Yahtzee draws of t1 or t2 blood moon. Deathrite is good too. If you can disrupt their first attempt to cold you with moon you can usually pull it off. I usually like hymn since they have no way of getting ahead on cards other than top. And they often spend extra cards to play things, read spirit guide. Therefore a hymn can usually hellbent them pretty quick, if you can still cast spells that is. Lilliana is too slow though. Don't think you will ultimate her to get rid of their moon. I did that once the guy just kept his moon and waited patiently for lands and win con

Dragonslayer_90
03-02-2014, 01:02 PM
I'm experimenting a bit with TNN myself (playing a 1/1 TNN / Tombstalker split right now).

My problem with Tombstalker (I do love that guy!) is that we seem to board him out in pretty much every matchup. Control, any deck with RIP, Combo... he only seems to stay in post-board against the non-white fair decks.

Of course, I do despise making my Golgari Charms worse by playing TNN, but TNN was pretty good for me the couple times I played him so far. More testing is required, of course.

Also, anyone have any tips on the Painter matchup? My meta's starting to get infested with those, so I figured I'd pick some brains and see what people thought on it.

When sideboarding, I'm really torn on Hymn to Tourach vs Painter. On one hand, they play that terrible Stompy manabase, so they're fairly inconsistent, but BB vs a deck that runs a bunch of Blood Moons seems rough.

On Tombstalker vs. TNN, the way I see it is it's a matter of metagame and preference. I think boarding out Tombstalker a lot is unavoidable since this Delver deck's threat density is higher than other two most played tempo decks, RUG and UWR. When facing combo and control you want to side out some number of threats anyways for more disruption so that you don't die right away to their bombs. Thus, you're going to side out the slowest threats first. Against combo and miracles I usually side out both stalkers and a goyf or two. The same would apply if you're running TNN in the tombstalker slot because it's slower than all your other threats. In an open metagame I prefer Tombstalker because it allows me to have asymmetric Golgari charms and often just straight up kills my opponent since by the time I've played him they've used all their removal to answer my previous threats.

The painter matchup is only hard when they get an early blood moon. I've found it to be pretty easy other wise. The fact that their combo is permanent based means abrupt decay goes a long way in disrupting them. Discard is really good against them in general. An early Hymn into Liliana of the Veil will often just put the game out of their reach. I would keep in whatever Liliana's you have main deck and maybe side in anymore if you have room. In general I treat them like any other combo deck when sbing and shave my stalkers and maybe a goyf or two for more ways to disrupt them, usually the most flexible options like spell pierce since I don't have much to sb out.

Asthereal
03-02-2014, 03:13 PM
Played the standard list to a 4-0 and double ID into top-8 today. Lost the quarters to Pox unfortunately.
Main: 2x Stalker, 1x Sylvan, 1x Lily.
Side: 4x Pierce, 3x Disfigure, 2x Charm, 1x Submerge, 1x Krosan Grip, 1x Surgical, 1x Cage, 1x Clique, 1x Lily.

R1: Team America with Confidants. 2-0
R2: Dredge. 2-0
R3: OmniHalls. 2-0
R4: Punishing Jund. 2-1 (close call in the third, but it's a tough matchup)
R5: ID
R6: ID
Quarters: Mono B Pox. 0-2

Findings:
1. Sylvan Library is just sick. I want a second somewhere in my 75.
2. Tombstalker is too good to cut.
3. Seriously... Pox with Pack Rats is tough to beat. Maybe he was lucky. Mybe I was unlucky. Maybe I messed up here and there. But it's a dangerous deck. He went undefeated 4-0, 2x ID and wins in the quarters and semis and then split the final. We should keep an eye open for that deck. Might become a serious contender.

Purgatory
03-02-2014, 05:34 PM
Pox is really good vs a field of fair decks, the tournament I described above had two Pox decks and iirc they both T8:ed. The match-up is pretty horrible for us, I'd say. If you plan on attending a big tournament, make sure you have some byes handy.

Grand Superior
03-02-2014, 05:45 PM
Pox is deceptively powerful now that we live in a True-Name Nemesis world. It's probably the best equipped deck to deal with TNN and the deck is affordable enough for it to be a popular choice for newer players. It also absolutely wrecks any deck that tries to cast Delver of Secrets and is one of the tempo deck's nightmare matchups. It's even worse for us because our Abrupt Decays can really only target The Rack/Cursed Scroll and our Hymn to Tourachs are terrible.

Purgatory
03-02-2014, 06:02 PM
Pox is deceptively powerful now that we live in a True-Name Nemesis world. It's probably the best equipped deck to deal with TNN and the deck is affordable enough for it to be a popular choice for newer players. It also absolutely wrecks any deck that tries to cast Delver of Secrets and is one of the tempo deck's nightmare matchups. It's even worse for us because our Abrupt Decays can really only target The Rack/Cursed Scroll and our Hymn to Tourachs are terrible.

Decay also hits their Lillys, my Pox opponent referred to above manage to play her off of Dark Ritual on turn one in both game 1 and 2. -_-

Asthereal
03-03-2014, 06:11 AM
Maybe Pox really is that bad a matchup. It felt winnable when I played it, but I did need to draw well.
I'm thinking about writing a report again, but I have no time right now, so that might take a few days.
As for now: any thoughts about my sideboard?

4x Pierce
3x Disfigure
1x Submerge
2x Golgari Charm
1x Surgical
1x Grafdigger
1x Krosan Grip
1x Liliana
1x Clique

Dragonslayer_90
03-03-2014, 12:47 PM
Maybe Pox really is that bad a matchup. It felt winnable when I played it, but I did need to draw well.
I'm thinking about writing a report again, but I have no time right now, so that might take a few days.
As for now: any thoughts about my sideboard?

4x Pierce
3x Disfigure
1x Submerge
2x Golgari Charm
1x Surgical
1x Grafdigger
1x Krosan Grip
1x Liliana
1x Clique

It's not too hard to "draw well" against pox in any given game when you play any amount of cantrips. Often you just win though the sheer consistency cantrips provide you. That has been my experience playing against pox players at least. Haven't lost too many matches to them. Then again, most of the pox players I've played against were bad. One guy effectively locked himself out of the game by playing nether void. I was fine with that because he was on only three or four lands so all his relevant stuff got mana leaked while I eventually killed him with threats I found with Sylvan Library.

Two lists with Dark Confidant in yesterdays SCG. Not sure if I like him over Tombstalker, but I'm going to test him out if I feel like playing Team at my LGS tomorrow. From a meta standpoint I think he might just be better with UWR and other blade decks being amongst the decks to beat. I'll report on how it goes if I do.

Esper3k
03-03-2014, 12:50 PM
To me, playing against Pox is like playing against the Stompy decks - they have potentially very powerful hands that are difficult to overcome, but their inherent inconsistencies will lose them more games in the long term against a super consistent deck like Delver decks.

Water_Wizard
03-03-2014, 04:21 PM
To me, playing against Pox is like playing against the Stompy decks - they have potentially very powerful hands that are difficult to overcome, but their inherent inconsistencies will lose them more games in the long term against a super consistent deck like Delver decks.

Yes, I agree with this.

I think that the most crucial two points for beating Pox are 1) not to play into Small Pox; and 2) not allowing an early Liliana to see play (i.e. Dark Ritual->Liliana on turn 1).

One of the worst plays that you can make vs. Pox is, on the draw, to go land->1 drop creature w/o Daze back-up. Then the Pox player can drop Small Pox and you lose 3 cards, however, they also lose 3 cards. If you don't play a creature, the Pox player loses 3 cards (assuming that they have a card in hand to discard), while you only lose 2 cards.

Another word of advice about Pox is to keep land-heavy hands. Pox's 4 Small Pox and 4 Sinkholes means that a lot of your land will get eaten.

Most versions of Pox are very slow, so you can slow down, cantrip for land, keep counter mana up, and beat them through card selection. Like Esper3k said, they are only drawing off the top of their deck and they have no cantrips. We have cantrips and we just need to make sure that we have enough land to play them ;)

Purgatory
03-03-2014, 05:05 PM
The Pox decks here seem to all have Top in the md, meaning they play quite well from the top of their decks.

I don't see how we beat a resolved Abyss, for example, with all the board control they run. Cutting their deck and hope they mull to oblivion is my plan.

Water_Wizard
03-03-2014, 06:21 PM
The Pox decks here seem to all have Top in the md, meaning they play quite well from the top of their decks.

I don't see how we beat a resolved Abyss, for example, with all the board control they run. Cutting their deck and hope they mull to oblivion is my plan.

Good point. It appears that the newer Pox lists run SDT. However, the 'traditional' lists do not. I just reviewed the Pox primer (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25713-Primer-Deck-Pox) and it says that SDT is "non-traditional" and "seen in rogue lists."

Against The Abyss - play TNN naming yourself so that you can't target it. If they are dropping The Abyss, you are in trouble. Creeping Tar Pit is another option.

Spell Pierce is solid vs. Pox, as it slows down pretty much their entire deck. Sylvan Library would also be very good because traditional Pox lists are very slow to kill (I've seen newer lists that run a higher creature count).

Esper3k
03-03-2014, 07:28 PM
Yeah, also keep in mind that as Water_Wizard points out, if you play a dude and they Smallpox, they only just broke even on card advantage.

Daze is hilariously awesome here against Sinkhole as well.

They have real issues as long as you can keep dropping dudes and staying aggressive on them. Ideally, if you can drop 2 guys in a turn, they have real issues dealing with that.

Essentially, treat them almost like a combo deck - save your Forces and Spell Pierces for things you know that will wreck you (Liliana, the Abyss, etc.). I rarely counter their Smallpoxes or Sinkholes unless it costs me almost nothing (Daze) to do it.

Thorhammer
03-04-2014, 10:54 AM
Looking at the top eight coverage of the last star city open, I ca't help feeling like the Team player would have had such a better shot at beating the RUG player if they had hymn to touch. I mean casting thought seize vs RUG just seems bad. All their cards are on the same power level and the 2 life really matters against lightning bolt.

Razorwynd
03-04-2014, 11:08 AM
Looking at the top eight coverage of the last star city open, I ca't help feeling like the Team player would have had such a better shot at beating the RUG player if they had hymn to touch. I mean casting thought seize vs RUG just seems bad. All their cards are on the same power level and the 2 life really matters against lightning bolt.

i am pretty sure the card submerge is what tipped the scales...

Esper3k
03-04-2014, 11:13 AM
Looking at the top eight coverage of the last star city open, I ca't help feeling like the Team player would have had such a better shot at beating the RUG player if they had hymn to touch. I mean casting thought seize vs RUG just seems bad. All their cards are on the same power level and the 2 life really matters against lightning bolt.

I think it's generally accepted that Thoughtseize is better vs SFM decks & combo while Hymn is better vs everyone else.

kravkenov
03-04-2014, 06:06 PM
Hi everyone,

Usually, I play RUG Delver (Tempo T**sh) or creature-less deck, like ANT, Doomsday or, like these few past weeks, 43 Lands (wich actually counts 36 lands, but eh). Now, I feel like I want to play RUG, but with Shaman, so it is Team America right (still Team America ?).

While I look for lists and read here and there comments and co, I ask myself "in a tempo/aggro deck, if you play a full set of Daze and Wasteland, why dont you also play a full set of Stifle ?" In RUG, Stifle is my favorite card.

Does someone have an answer for not playing Stifle ? Thx :)

Esper3k
03-04-2014, 06:44 PM
Hi everyone,

Usually, I play RUG Delver (Tempo T**sh) or creature-less deck, like ANT, Doomsday or, like these few past weeks, 43 Lands (wich actually counts 36 lands, but eh). Now, I feel like I want to play RUG, but with Shaman, so it is Team America right (still Team America ?).

While I look for lists and read here and there comments and co, I ask myself "in a tempo/aggro deck, if you play a full set of Daze and Wasteland, why dont you also play a full set of Stifle ?" In RUG, Stifle is my favorite card.

Does someone have an answer for not playing Stifle ? Thx :)

There's also a BURG Tempo thread for a similar deck to your idea, btw. They might have more ideas and insight there?

In regards to Stifle, I would say that Team America (or BUG Delver as newer players call it), more often taps out than RUG does. For example, we usually would much rather cast Deathrite Shaman on T1 than hold mana open for Stifle. Likewise on T2, you're often tapping out for a Tarmogoyf or Hymn whereas RUG can afford to cast a Mongoose/Delver while holding Stifle mana up.

Generally speaking, our mana curve is higher due to the greater density of 2-drops and some 3-drops, so we simply can't afford to pass the turn holding up mana the way RUG can.

kravkenov
03-04-2014, 07:37 PM
There's also a BURG Tempo thread for a similar deck to your idea, btw. They might have more ideas and insight there?

In regards to Stifle, I would say that Team America (or BUG Delver as newer players call it), more often taps out than RUG does. For example, we usually would much rather cast Deathrite Shaman on T1 than hold mana open for Stifle. Likewise on T2, you're often tapping out for a Tarmogoyf or Hymn whereas RUG can afford to cast a Mongoose/Delver while holding Stifle mana up.

Generally speaking, our mana curve is higher due to the greater density of 2-drops and some 3-drops, so we simply can't afford to pass the turn holding up mana the way RUG can.

Ok, sound good. Thank you for your answer Esper3K.

I think this is also the main reason to run up to 20 lands despite having a pseudo mana accelerant with Shaman.

Razorwynd
03-04-2014, 09:51 PM
I think it's generally accepted that Thoughtseize is better vs SFM decks & combo while Hymn is better vs everyone else.

I would argue that TS is also better vs Blood Moon and Mother of Runes as well.

Esper3k
03-04-2014, 09:53 PM
Ok, sound good. Thank you for your answer Esper3K.

I think this is also the main reason to run up to 20 lands despite having a pseudo mana accelerant with Shaman.

Exactly. Since our curve is higher, we need more lands. DRS helps, of course, but can't be relied upon 100% of the time.

Thorhammer
03-05-2014, 02:43 AM
Went 4-0 tonight with Team. Not a single game loss even. Man this deck is good. I'm playing Hymn stalker version. A brief report:

Round 1: Junk depths

Game 1: I go delver into goyf. He spends his second turn hymning me which makes goyf a 5/6 since he hits Lili. He's dead in two turns after a wasteland and an abrupt decay on a knight.


Game 2: Is more grindy as we strip each others hands. But the last card in my hand is a Submerge which I sandbag He knows about it and laments not taking it with Thoughtseize. He has Dark Depths and Stage but can't make marit through the submerge. I draw deathrites and Liliana to lock it up.

Round 2: UWR Miracles

Game 1: I delver him down to about 11 life before he kills it. I start dropping threats the he deals with but then can't answer a tombstalker.
Game 2: Long, Long Long. I end up ultimating Liliana and wreck half his lands. I get a Sylvan Library into play which is the best card in the solar system against them. He entreats but plays around spell pierce and only makes one angel which I can abrupt decay. His Jace stays in play for a long time before I finally am able to kill it with a goyf. The next turn I see force, force, blue card with library. YES PLEASE. I keep a clique in my hand for terminus and force every answer he has for my 7/8 goyf. Dang big goyf.

Round 3: BUG control

Game 1: He's on a sweet list with bobs, goyfs, hymns, and Jaces. I decay his first shaman and he drops a bob. I can't find a removal spell but he can't find anything but discard with Bob and delver and death rite gets there.

Game 2: Sylvan Library to the rescue! He plays toxic deluge to kill my Tarmogoyf and tombstalker. He fow's a Lili (not sure why he kept that in). And I grind to a win with double death rite shaman. In the end i pithing needle naming Jace knowing that it is his only out. Sylvan Library just drew good stuff.

Round 4: Welder Metal worker.

Game 1: I'm scared of this deck cuz he's packing blood moon. He dumps most of his hand into play but doesn't have a decent threat, just monoliths and top.
I wasteland his land and he doesn't have a second. Deathrite into liliana then makes short work of him.

Game 2: He goes metal worker into monoliths while I'm just trying to get to abrupt decay mana for the moon I am afraid of. He then makes a jillion mana with a voltaic key and hard casts BLIGHTSTEEL COLOSSUS!!! Thank you force of will. His goblin welder doesn't even have any targets.


Sweet night. I played numerous other test games with people. Ended up with a 13-2 record all told on the night including the tourney and the practice games. Love the deck. The only question I have left is whether to have an Envelop or a Swan Song in the sideboard.

Asthereal
03-05-2014, 04:26 AM
The only question I have left is whether to have an Envelop or a Swan Song in the sideboard.
Neither? I played the full set of Pierces to a 4-0 and then double ID into top-8 and loved thm. Good against everything that looks slightly unfair. Envelop doesn't catch Silence, Sneak Attack. Swan Song gets them a blocker for our best guys (Delver and Clique). Fluster is great but it doesn't hit everything either. Pierce is just the most versatile.

Well done on your 4-0 btw! :smile:

Thorhammer
03-05-2014, 12:03 PM
Neither? I played the full set of Pierces to a 4-0 and then double ID into top-8 and loved thm. Good against everything that looks slightly unfair. Envelop doesn't catch Silence, Sneak Attack. Swan Song gets them a blocker for our best guys (Delver and Clique). Fluster is great but it doesn't hit everything either. Pierce is just the most versatile.

Well done on your 4-0 btw! :smile:


I do like me some spell pierce and I have been running three but I was wondering if I should switch one of them to a swan song or envelop. I just hate that spell pierce can almost never counter a terminus or an entreat since miracles has a million mana by the end of the game. Convince me that pierce is better though.

Dragonslayer_90
03-06-2014, 12:55 AM
I do like me some spell pierce and I have been running three but I was wondering if I should switch one of them to a swan song or envelop. I just hate that spell pierce can almost never counter a terminus or an entreat since miracles has a million mana by the end of the game. Convince me that pierce is better though.

I'd consider it if you're expecting a good amount of miracles wherever you play.

I'd like to steer the thread towards talking about Dark Confidant again. Has anyone tested the recent Confidant builds that have been doing well since Team won GP Paris? I've been trying to myself but haven't gotten enough time to test to decide whether I like him better than Tombstalker in this deck.

Asthereal
03-06-2014, 05:03 AM
I guess it's a meta thing. Here in the Netherlands I am yet to encounter my first Miracles opponent in tournament play.
If Miracles is such a big thing, I would choose Envelop over Swan Song. Don't let yourself get killed by that swan token. :wink:

The Confidant lists are interesting. I love Stalker too much to switch just yet, but I'd be happy to hear other's thoughts on this.

EDIT: If I do a test run, it'll probably be with a list like this:

Creatures:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant /16

Spells:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Disfigure
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Liliana of the Veil /25

Lands:
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland /19

Sideboard:
2 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm/Envelop
2 Golgari Charm
2 Krosan Grip
2 Disfigure
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Liliana of the Veil /15

Darkness
03-06-2014, 07:29 AM
I'd consider it if you're expecting a good amount of miracles wherever you play.

I'd like to steer the thread towards talking about Dark Confidant again. Has anyone tested the recent Confidant builds that have been doing well since Team won GP Paris? I've been trying to myself but haven't gotten enough time to test to decide whether I like him better than Tombstalker in this deck.

It has been performing pretty well on the mtgo daily events and placed 3rd at SCG Atlanta. I have the list sleeved up but haven't had time to live play test it. I think it's ver interesting and possibly better depending on the meta.

somethingdotdotdot
03-06-2014, 08:07 AM
I just wanted to chime in on the confidant debate a little bit. If you look at the confidant decklists, the card selection pushes the deck into a more midrange approach. It's not at the point of shardless bug midrange, but the deck's strategy is different from the prototypical bug delver's approach. Traditional bug delver is more tempo oriented and focused on disrupting the enemy long enough to get them from 20 to 0. The card advantage cards like hymn and liliana (sylvan library has been dropped down to a 1-of in most of the more recent lists) have mostly been to add to the tempo plan. Rather than giving you more cards or selection, its been primarily aimed at taking away your opponents'. The confidant lists have changed this dynamic--confidant gives you extra cards so you can be more discriminate with how you interact with your opponents. The deck itself is still quite aggresive, but the lines of attack are different. In these lists, it might be better to thoughtseize rather than to hymn--surgical dismantling the opposing strategy rather than using a spray and pray approach.

The main advantage I that I see from this change is that it gives the deck a better matchup against things like miracles. Taking a top is much more advantageous than taking a dead miracle card+land. You can also see this trend from looking at their sideboards--jace is showing up as a 1-2 of in the confidant lists. This tends to imply that the designer wanted to be able to play a longer drawn out g2 versus decks with heavy card advantage (miracles, esper).

I think that sometimes just looking at the new cards without understanding why they were added skews deck development and evolution by making the overall strategy less coherent. Just some thoughts as development moves forward.

Dragonslayer_90
03-06-2014, 09:15 AM
I just wanted to chime in on the confidant debate a little bit. If you look at the confidant decklists, the card selection pushes the deck into a more midrange approach. It's not at the point of shardless bug midrange, but the deck's strategy is different from the prototypical bug delver's approach. Traditional bug delver is more tempo oriented and focused on disrupting the enemy long enough to get them from 20 to 0. The card advantage cards like hymn and liliana (sylvan library has been dropped down to a 1-of in most of the more recent lists) have mostly been to add to the tempo plan. Rather than giving you more cards or selection, its been primarily aimed at taking away your opponents'. The confidant lists have changed this dynamic--confidant gives you extra cards so you can be more discriminate with how you interact with your opponents. The deck itself is still quite aggresive, but the lines of attack are different. In these lists, it might be better to thoughtseize rather than to hymn--surgical dismantling the opposing strategy rather than using a spray and pray approach.

The main advantage I that I see from this change is that it gives the deck a better matchup against things like miracles. Taking a top is much more advantageous than taking a dead miracle card+land. You can also see this trend from looking at their sideboards--jace is showing up as a 1-2 of in the confidant lists. This tends to imply that the designer wanted to be able to play a longer drawn out g2 versus decks with heavy card advantage (miracles, esper).

I think that sometimes just looking at the new cards without understanding why they were added skews deck development and evolution by making the overall strategy less coherent. Just some thoughts as development moves forward.

I don't mean to denigrate your post, but I'm pretty sure most of us understand why Javier Dominguez added Confidant to his list. What I'm trying to figure out is whether playing confidant over tombstalker and thoughtseize over hymn is better in an unknown and/or open meta rather than the traditional hymn stalker build. It may just be a matter of playstyle and one build is better in specific metas then others. But personally, I've never had a problem playing against TNN blade decks with the hymnstalker verison, and I feel like I can win pretty much any tier match up if I play tightly and don't get too unlucky. Thus, I don't know if I'd switch to confidant and thoughtseize unless it proves itself to be clearly superior. Also, I'm pretty sure the person who got DQ'ed out of the GP Paris Top 8 was running a hymn stalker build. Would have been nice to see how it would have done in that top 8 but oh well.

B88
03-06-2014, 10:51 AM
hi there,

i went in Paris for the GP last month and i played team america. i did day2 but the second day was very unlucky :cry: despite i didn't test enought before gp and i finished 160 in the rank.
i played one list with confidant because i aspected more miracle and mirror MU (thing has happened).
anyway after the gp i did some adjustments and in the end the list is this:

15
3 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
4 deathrite
4 delver

25
3 ponder
3 force of will
4 brainstorm
4 hymn
3 daze
4 decay
1 spell pierce
2 liliana
1 disfigure

20
4 underground
2 bayou
1 tropical
4 wasteland
8 delta/verdant

side
3 golgari
1 pulse
2 envelop
1 null rod
1 needle
2 diabolic edict
1 jace TMS
2 spell pierce
1 vendilion
1 force of will

i cut one daze because, i think, now the legacy format is very fast and if our opponent open like t1: delta+shaman our daze become dead! also i cut one force because with confidant i wouldn't take many damages! i add one pierce maindeck who become the fourth fow and daze many time!
the side is against many kind of tier we could aspected: mirror, miracle, esper, DeT and combo
for example:you can use evelop against miracle or combo...or Jace is huge in mirror, esper or random deck!
i side in often Pulse because is able to fix many scenario we could meet.
me and my team mate we're testing this list for a month and we won 70/80% of our match. try it if you want and let me know... :tongue:

Water_Wizard
03-06-2014, 01:25 PM
I guess it's a meta thing. Here in the Netherlands I am yet to encounter my first Miracles opponent in tournament play.
If Miracles is such a big thing, I would choose Envelop over Swan Song. Don't let yourself get killed by that swan token. :wink:

The Confidant lists are interesting. I love Stalker too much to switch just yet, but I'd be happy to hear other's thoughts on this.

EDIT: If I do a test run, it'll probably be with a list like this:

Creatures:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant /16

Spells:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Disfigure
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Liliana of the Veil /25

Lands:
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland /19

Sideboard:
2 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm/Envelop
2 Golgari Charm
2 Krosan Grip
2 Disfigure
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Liliana of the Veil /15

I don't understand why there is no discard anywhere in your list? I would cut the 2 Spell Pierce and 2 Disfigure for some form of discard. Thoughtseize scares me a little bit because of the -2 in addition to Dark Confidant life loss could add up. However, you are already pretty heavy at the 2-drop spot with DC and Goyf, so perhaps Hymn isn't a great fit either.

Madmankevinx
03-07-2014, 10:09 AM
Has anyone run the Tombstalker/4 Hymn list with 19 Land (cutting the 9th fetch) and had success? I ask because I really want to jam the 41st spell in the main (Sylvan Library). Thoughts? Will the -1 fetch screw with the Deathrite acceleration and/or consistency of a stable mana base in a wasteland format?

Spike
03-07-2014, 11:00 AM
I´m playing 19 lands since BoM8 last year November and I´m very happy with it, works fine. 20 lands is too much for me as flooding has been an issue for me too often... But getting to 2-3 lands in play has never been a problem for me with 19 lands and 8 cantrips. Also played 19 lands at GP Paris (6-2-1), and I´m not going to change that for BoM9 in May :)

exallium
03-07-2014, 11:15 AM
What do people think in terms of sideboard options against something like 12 post? LftL? I was considering Winter Orb as well, given it's value vs. Miracles.

Esper3k
03-07-2014, 11:34 AM
Has anyone run the Tombstalker/4 Hymn list with 19 Land (cutting the 9th fetch) and had success? I ask because I really want to jam the 41st spell in the main (Sylvan Library). Thoughts? Will the -1 fetch screw with the Deathrite acceleration and/or consistency of a stable mana base in a wasteland format?

I think it depends on your meta. Against Wasteland decks, you'll want that 20th land because you can't count on your DRS' surviving. When you sideboard vs non-Wasteland decks, you can always cut the 2nd Bayou (I notice Bob Huang doing that quite often in his sideboarding tips) so you can keep the 9 fetches in to feed Tombstalker/DRS.


What do people think in terms of sideboard options against something like 12 post? LftL? I was considering Winter Orb as well, given it's value vs. Miracles.

Winter Orb seems fine against them. Life from the Loam seems good too to keep recurring Wastelands.

Water_Wizard
03-07-2014, 02:31 PM
What do people think in terms of sideboard options against something like 12 post? LftL? I was considering Winter Orb as well, given it's value vs. Miracles.


Winter Orb seems fine against them. Life from the Loam seems good too to keep recurring Wastelands.

Quick clock + Wasteland = you have a good match-up vs. 12 Post.

Loam is good unless they Crop Rotate in Bojuka Bog.

Repeal will hit early Delvers.

You can probably cut some Abrupt Decay unless you are worried about Pithing Needle (on Wasteland) or Carpet of Flowers.

Needle on Top is good against 12 Post.

TA has a lot of tools to combat 12 Post - Quick clock, Wasteland, Discard, and Countermagic. Make sure that you can answer an early Show and Tell into Primeval Titan (they get the two lands off Show and Tell = not fair). Show and Tell = Eldrazi can be answered by Liliana.

I would be careful on the blind discard, at least in post-board games, as the most updated 12 Post lists have 4 Obstinate Baloths in the sideboard.

Dragonslayer_90
03-09-2014, 12:02 AM
Since I'm on spring break now, I have some time to breathe. Also, I'm going to start testing this list as much as I can:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Thoughtseize
2 Dark Confidant
3 Hymn to Tourach

SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 3 Disfigure
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Creeping Tar Pit
SB: 2 Marsh Casualties
SB: 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Some cards to take note of:

Dark Confidant - This guy has been great. I know he's good enough to play four of, but I feel two is fine. Too many of him in multiples is actually bad and he shines at his best in the late game where you have hopefully exhausted most of your opponent's resources so that he sticks and takes over the game. I kind of think of him as kind of filling the role sylvan library usually does for the deck, with the downside and upside of being a creature. My impression from initial testing is that he might be better than tombstalker in a meta with lots of swords to plowshare decks.

Split between Hymn and Thoughtseize - Thoughtseize has been pretty great as it gives me information and lets me take their best card. However, I still like the punch that hymn provides, thus the split. I don't play any more discard in the sideboard because I don't like siding in more only to lose to leyline of sanctity. Just a preference really.

Creeping Tarpit - My land to add postboard against wasteland with the upside of being a late game threat. I trimmed a land from the maindeck because I felt I flooded WAY too much with 20 lands. I haven't gotten too mana screwed so far but more testing needs to be done.

Marsh Casualties - This is replacing the golgari charm slots for now. Golgari Charm's a hell of a card, but I wanted a sweeper that didn't kill confidant and I saw this card in that TNN BUG list that top 8'ed GP Paris. The only problem is losing the versatility of charm, which I don't know if that is significant enough or not. The regen mode is not too relevant much of the time but the destroy enchatment mode has been pretty relevant much of the time. Takes pressure off Abrupt Decay to kill stuff like rest in peace and such.

Jace, the Mind Sculptor - Another card I'm testing since it's been showing up in the confidant lists. I feel it fills the same role of sylvan library. I've been liking it so far in any fair matchup really that tends to be a grind.

Surgical Extraction - This is only in my sb as a meta call for my LGS. There's someone who plays tin fins that I'm currently 0-2 against lol. I would probably play other cards in their place at something like an SCG Open.

Water_Wizard
03-09-2014, 04:47 AM
Since I'm on spring break now, I have some time to breathe. Also, I'm going to start testing this list as much as I can:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Thoughtseize
2 Dark Confidant
3 Hymn to Tourach

SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 3 Disfigure
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Creeping Tar Pit
SB: 2 Marsh Casualties
SB: 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Some cards to take note of:

Dark Confidant - This guy has been great. I know he's good enough to play four of, but I feel two is fine. Too many of him in multiples is actually bad and he shines at his best in the late game where you have hopefully exhausted most of your opponent's resources so that he sticks and takes over the game. I kind of think of him as kind of filling the role sylvan library usually does for the deck, with the downside and upside of being a creature. My impression from initial testing is that he might be better than tombstalker in a meta with lots of swords to plowshare decks.

Split between Hymn and Thoughtseize - Thoughtseize has been pretty great as it gives me information and lets me take their best card. However, I still like the punch that hymn provides, thus the split. I don't play any more discard in the sideboard because I don't like siding in more only to lose to leyline of sanctity. Just a preference really.

Creeping Tarpit - My land to add postboard against wasteland with the upside of being a late game threat. I trimmed a land from the maindeck because I felt I flooded WAY too much with 20 lands. I haven't gotten too mana screwed so far but more testing needs to be done.

Marsh Casualties - This is replacing the golgari charm slots for now. Golgari Charm's a hell of a card, but I wanted a sweeper that didn't kill confidant and I saw this card in that TNN BUG list that top 8'ed GP Paris. The only problem is losing the versatility of charm, which I don't know if that is significant enough or not. The regen mode is not too relevant much of the time but the destroy enchatment mode has been pretty relevant much of the time. Takes pressure off Abrupt Decay to kill stuff like rest in peace and such.

Jace, the Mind Sculptor - Another card I'm testing since it's been showing up in the confidant lists. I feel it fills the same role of sylvan library. I've been liking it so far in any fair matchup really that tends to be a grind.

Surgical Extraction - This is only in my sb as a meta call for my LGS. There's someone who plays tin fins that I'm currently 0-2 against lol. I would probably play other cards in their place at something like an SCG Open.

It all depends on what you are going to run up against. Your list is solid and could win against any deck.

wwoning
03-09-2014, 09:51 AM
What I'm trying to figure out is whether playing confidant over tombstalker and thoughtseize over hymn is better in an unknown and/or open meta rather than the traditional hymn stalker build.

I´d like to have this debate as well. Bob is great and it feels fantastic slamming it after you wrecked the opponent´s first cards with Hymns and AD and having used his removal for DRS/Delver/Goyf. All threats that need to be answered, so the more chance that Bob sticks. But why would you want to land a Bob when you can land a Tombstalker instead? Apart from preference (and maybe graveyard hate post board) I do not know. I'm very interested in your testing results!

Edit: Downside is of course running a full set of FoWs with the Bobs around... Although a small chance, this can get quite tricky. What are you guys thoughts on that?

Dragonslayer_90
03-09-2014, 10:12 AM
It all depends on what you are going to run up against. Your list is solid and could win against any deck.

Thanks. It does seem to still have that "game against everything" feel I got from playing the traditional Hymnstalker lists.


I´d like to have this debate as well. Bob is great and it feels fantastic slamming it after you wrecked the opponent´s first cards with Hymns and AD and having used his removal for DRS/Delver/Goyf. All threats that need to be answered, so the more chance that Bob sticks. But why would you want to land a Bob when you can land a Tombstalker instead? Apart from preference (and maybe graveyard hate post board) I do not know. I'm very interested in your testing results!

There are decks where I'd want Dark Confidant over Tombstalker and vice-versa. Against UWR I want Dark Confidant because the match-up tends be grindy since they have a slower clock than RUG and they have swords to plowshares. If my confidant's going to get killed at least it only took two mana and not two mana and some amount of cards from my graveyard. Against RUG I'd rather have Tombstalker because it trumps all their threats, they have a faster clock (meaning it's hard to use your life as a resource with confidant), and they cannot remove stalker as easily. I think it's all a combination of meta and preference. More testing needs to be done though. I think it's still possible to win with a Hymn stalker list in this meta. However, I'm really liking Dark Confidant with miracles potentially on the rise and UWR and Deathblade still at the top tables, all decks confidant is better against I think.

Darkness
03-09-2014, 10:43 AM
Thanks. It does seem to still have that "game against everything" feel I got from playing the traditional Hymnstalker lists.



There are decks where I'd want Dark Confidant over Tombstalker and vice-versa. Against UWR I want Dark Confidant because the match-up tends be grindy since they have a slower clock than RUG and they have swords to plowshares. If my confidant's going to get killed at least it only took two mana and not two mana and some amount of cards from my graveyard. Against RUG I'd rather have Tombstalker because it trumps all their threats, they have a faster clock (meaning it's hard to use your life as a resource with confidant), and they cannot remove stalker as easily. I think it's all a combination of meta and preference. More testing needs to be done though. I think it's still possible to win with a Hymn stalker list in this meta. However, I'm really liking Dark Confidant with miracles potentially on the rise and UWR and Deathblade still at the top tables, all decks confidant is better against I think.

I do agree that most match ups Bob is better!

phazonmutant
03-09-2014, 04:05 PM
I do agree that most match ups Bob is better!

What about the TNN-Hymn list from GP Paris? I'm trying out TNNs and I'm not sure if they're better than Tombstalker or not. So far they've been fine.

Water_Wizard
03-09-2014, 09:51 PM
What about the TNN-Hymn list from GP Paris? I'm trying out TNNs and I'm not sure if they're better than Tombstalker or not. So far they've been fine.

I think that they are a good replacement if one expects a lot of Miracles. TA hasn't had a creature with shroud since Nimble Mongoose. TNN renders their spot removal useless and makes Miracles find a Terminus or Supreme Verdict.

Esper3k
03-09-2014, 10:19 PM
What about the TNN-Hymn list from GP Paris? I'm trying out TNNs and I'm not sure if they're better than Tombstalker or not. So far they've been fine.

I'm fiddling around with a TNN list as well (pretty much just the stock list right now with 2 Lilianas in the main and 2 TNN instead of the Tombstalkers).

Of course, they've been much better vs the StP decks, but I have occasionally run into mana issues with them. I've gotten that hand before where you have 2 fetches and a Wasteland while having Hymn, TNN, and Tarmogoyf in your hand. I ended up fetching double Sea and ripped the green source when I needed it, but it did make me a little nervous having to rely on that. It's rare, but it'll happen occasionally.

The way I view TNN vs Tombstalker is that:

Tombstalker: Better vs RUG / fair decks that don't run StP. Much easier on your manabase to cast both in color and in playing through Daze / Wasteland. Doesn't get hit by your own Golgari Charms.

TNN: Better vs StP decks. Better vs SFM (it can block that Germ token all day!).

Both are horrible vs combo and should be boarded out at first opportunity!

Mainly I'm giving TNN a test right now because I find myself boarding out Tombstalker a lot vs almost every deck I've been running into (combo, white StP decks, white decks that run RIP, etc.) so I wanted to see if I could free up some sideboard slots with TNN.

Purgatory
03-10-2014, 08:32 AM
Have tried TNN quite a bit vs. Miracles, and I have to say that it doesn't swing the match-up that much anyway. We just need to deploy our clocks one at a time, and since TNN is a slower clock it might even be worse in some situations. I'm not saying TNN is bad (because it really isn't even in our deck where we don't have EQs to make him really crazy), but playing it to beat Miracles is faulty in my book.

I like it a lot vs. other fair decks, not so much vs Miracles.

Esper3k
03-10-2014, 08:58 AM
Have tried TNN quite a bit vs. Miracles, and I have to say that it doesn't swing the match-up that much anyway. We just need to deploy our clocks one at a time, and since TNN is a slower clock it might even be worse in some situations. I'm not saying TNN is bad (because it really isn't even in our deck where we don't have EQs to make him really crazy), but playing it to beat Miracles is faulty in my book.

I like it a lot vs. other fair decks, not so much vs Miracles.

I'm not saying it's a trump vs Miracles, but it's better than Tombstalker both because it can't be Plowed but also because it doesn't care about RIP.

limbo
03-10-2014, 01:48 PM
I have been playing this since GP DC. I have played the TNN, Tombstalker and Bob lists. Here are my thoughts:

TNN: He excels in a metagame that is heavy on non-TNN fair decks, especially stoneforge decks like D&T. Opposing TNN bring his value down but he is still solid (UWR delver, etc). In a mature meta-game, most decks have 3-4 sideboard cards to deal with it, or are planning to kill before he is relevant. He is fine against miracles, as 3 cmc is challenging to counter with counterbalance, and he turns off plow. You can sit on him (and maybe one other threat) and force them to find a terminus, which you may be able to counter. Ultimately, I love him in stoneforge decks, but only rate him as ok in team america.

Tombstalker: He is great in a metagame with a lot of TNN as he races it favorably. He is weakest against decks that run rest in peace (or that type of effect) and against Jace decks, as a bounced tombstalker is almost certainly dead in your hand. While he is never countered by counterbalance, I don't like him against miracles at all because they have rest in peace, jace and swords along with Terminus or Entreats to invalidate him.

Dark Confidant: Having a card draw engine in tempo decks is very strong in general. He can be problematic against other tempo and aggro decks but excels against control or combo. Post board he loses a lot of value as all the TNN hate also kills him, along with the standard removal. He is solid against miracles because they are trying to grind you down until they assemble a winning board, so drawing even 1 extra card helps you immensely. It is worth noting that flipping a force against aggro or tempo decks can be a killer, as such I like only 3 maindeck forces in bob decks. This is especially true if your meta, like mine, has a lot of blue decks which limit the success of combo decks allowing you to 'cheat' slightly on your force of will count.

In the dark, at a large tournament I would play dark confidant. If you know your metagame, then the decision should be based on what you expect.

Here is my current list for those who are interested. Note that I went a little smaller trying to keep the cards moving and make Bob as good as possible. I think this approach is very strong, generally. I have also gone with a 2 thoughtseize, 3 hymn list as a way to keep a high number of early interaction spells. The information from probe as well as its cycling and low cmc have made me extremely happy with this decision. I have kept 2 golgari charms in my sideboard despite playing bob, since the other modes are relevant and if you really need to kill their board and happen to have bob in play, losing bob isn't the worst price to pay since he has almost certainly been in play for more than a turn when these situations arise (you rarely play him into a board you know you need to wrath). I don't fault people for preferring marsh casualties or additional edicts in these spots though.:

Creatures [14]
4 deathrite shaman
4 delver of secrets
4 tarmogoyf
2 dark confidant

Sorceries [11]
4 Ponder
3 hymn to tourach
2 thoughtseize
2 gitaxian probe

Instants [15]
4 brainstorm
4 abrupt decay
4 daze
3 force of will

Planeswalkers [1]
1 liliana of the viel

Lands [19]
3 misty rainforest
3 polluted delta
2 verdant catacombs
2 tropical island
2 bayou
3 underground sea
4 wasteland

Sideboard [15]
1 force of will
1 flusterstorm
1 thoughtseize
1 vendilion clique
1 umezawa's jitte
2 golgari Charm
2 disfigure
1 krosan grip
1 maelstrom pulse
2 spell pierce
1 grafdigger's cage
1 surgical extration

Additional cards I keep with the deck for tuning purposes based on what I except in each tournament 1 engineered explosives, 2 duress, 1 surgical extraction (#2), 2 nihil spellbomb, 1 hymn to tourach (#4), 2 liliana of the veil (#2-3).

KobeBryan
03-11-2014, 12:49 AM
how do you guys fight miracles. That matchup has been very difficult for me

Einherjer
03-11-2014, 04:55 AM
how do you guys fight miracles. That matchup has been very difficult for me

You don't fight, you run.

Read what I wrote a few pages back.

Greetings

Wombo Combo
03-11-2014, 12:55 PM
how do you guys fight miracles. That matchup has been very difficult for me

Play Turbo Eldrazi or Deedstill.

Dragonslayer_90
03-11-2014, 01:06 PM
how do you guys fight miracles. That matchup has been very difficult for me

What Einherjer said. His advice on the match up is very helpful. I can attest to that. However, if you get paired up against a Miracles master like Einherjer you might just have to run :wink:

limbo
03-11-2014, 01:15 PM
how do you guys fight miracles. That matchup has been very difficult for me

I have had success with both the TNN and Dark confidant versions against miracles. Not so much with the tombstalkers. I think this matchup is pretty even if you are on one of those two builds, much better than matchups like painter which is nigh unwinnable. The plan is exactly what you would expect, disrupt their hand and mana whenever you can, put 1-2 threats in play and hold onto the rest until they deal with the ones on board. Pretty grindy, but winnable. The difficulty miracles has dealing with TNN (though I boarded down to 2-3 in post board games from 4 main) and the strength of extra cards from bob make this match up reasonable with either of those builds. Tombstalker is quite bad, as they interact with it so well via graveyard hate (RIP primarily), jace, and removal. Duress and thoughtseize are particularly strong. Once they have an active top, your discard becomes much worse as they can float their best cards. When they have top online look for opportunities presented by poor land usage or aggressive fetching to disrupt their mana and sneak in spells for value. Against experienced players in close games you will have to be selective about sequencing which spells you bait/lead with and which ones you followup up with.

Because there are numerous different builds of TA out there right now, miracles players don't have easy many sideboard choices. Don't hesitate to change your configuration between game 2 and 3 to keep them on their toes and respond to what they show you.

You often don't need to fire off your abrupt decay on counterbalance at the first chance (as is the instinct when you first start playing this matchup), since if you have a threat you probably want to simply draw cards until they deal with your threat. Holding decay in postboard games is especially strong as it gives you outs to RIP, blood moon, stoneforge, etc which various builds are running and which are more threatening than a naked counterbalance or a counterbalance-top when you have a threat. If this deck is popular in your area a krosan grip is an excellent sideboard choice as an additional decay style effect that is difficult to interact with.

I suspect creeping tar pit is good here, though I haven't been putting it in my board, so I don't have first hand experience there. I mulligan land heavy hands here, as you really need to be proactive in the early turns (1-3). Not sure there is anything particularly new or insightful here, but hopefully it is helpful.


Edit: Yeah, post 3652 by Einherjer is on the mark, read it.

order
03-11-2014, 04:38 PM
Guys, i'm having problems to beat merfolks(with true-name). What's the best strategy against them?

MY STRATEGY

I run javier domingues (gp parins champs) http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=63534

I try to keep hands full of threats (goyf + delver) and mulligan spell heavy hands(fow, daze, discart). They are hard to controll and i think our only out trying to rush them. Play threats and hymn them. Wastland only for mutavault(maybe on our only blue source on emergence) and trying to kill only lords.

Best cards: DELVER!, delver, delver, goyf and hymn
Weak cards: fow, daze, discart

After sideboard
On play: -3fow -2xthoughtseize -2bob +2 golgari charm +1 engineered plague +1 Diabolic Edict +2 Disfigure +1 Dismember
On draw: -4daze -3fow -2bob (maybe keep fow and take out hymn)

BOB is worth or too risky?

LIST
Creatures (14)

2 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
Planeswalkers (3)

3 Liliana of the Veil
Lands (20)

2 Bayou
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
Spells (23)

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
Sideboard

1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
1 Engineered Plague
1 Sylvan Library
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Disfigure
1 Dismember
1 Force of Will
2 Golgari Charm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Hymn to Tourach

Dragonslayer_90
03-11-2014, 08:12 PM
Guys, i'm having problems to beat merfolks(with true-name). What's the best strategy against them?

Preboard focus on trying to tempo them out with delver, goyf, hymn, daze. Force Turn 1 Aether Vials if you can. Postboard you have more flexibility with your game plan since your better suited to play control by siding in more efficent and impactful answers and don't need to play a tempo game from the start. However, you should ultimately look to kill them with delver, goyf, or both. Preboard and postboard focus try to save your removal for their lords if you can afford to. Without island walk a single goyf often just stall walls their whole team. I especially enjoy it when I have goyf holding down the fort while delver clocks them in the air.

With your sb I would sb in the following way against merfolk with TNN:

+1 Null Rod, +1 Diabolic Edict, +2 Disfigure, +1 Dismember, +2 Golgari Charm, +1 Hymn to Tourach + Engineered Plague

-3 FoW, -2 Confidant - 2 Thoughtseize -2 Daze

I don't like thoughtseize against aggressive creature decks like merfolk but hymn to tourach is pretty good against them since it's a two-for-one.

Dragonslayer_90
03-11-2014, 10:31 PM
http://s27.postimg.org/burgf7wwz/Team_America_small.jpg





Table of Contents

I. Overview
II. History
III. Core List
IV. Maindeck Flex Slots
V. Common Sideboard Cards
VI. General Strategic Guidelines
VII. Matchup Analysis and Sideboarding Guide
VIII. Other Successful Lists
IX. Further Reading

I. Overview

Team America (A.K.A. BUG Delver) is fundamentally an Aggro-Control deck. The current face of Team America splices elements of Blue-based Tempo and BGx midrange. This composition allows the deck to make powerful plays in the early game and still be able to play magic into the mid and late game. The deck looks to generate tempo through a “Tap out” method with an early Deathrite Shaman. The idea of Tapout tempo is to cast lots of cheap spells and hold up manaless counters in the early game to get so far ahead your that your opponent has a hard time getting back into the game. Proactive discard, manaless counters, the uncounterable Abrupt Decay, and high quality creatures allows this deck to accel at generating tempo. The deck usually plays around 14 creatures total. All of these creatures are so good that they must be answered right away as they end the game quickly (Delver of Secrets, Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker) or take over the game by allowing you to get so far ahead (Dark Confidant, Deathrite Shaman). The cantrip suite of Brainstorm and Ponder enables a consistency that is the hallmark of Legacy’s tempo strategies.


II. History

The deck itself has an interesting history to its creation as it started out as joke deck of David Gearhart’s. In its primordial form, it was originally just Blue-Black, played Tombstalkers and Confidants as threats, and had Team America’s early land destruction package of Sinkhole and Wasteland. Also, it had no removal and main decked four Extirpates. "To say the least it was pretty bad (although pretty fun to play)" said Daniel Signorini about the first iteration of Team America. Eventually, Dan and David started working on the deck to make it more competitive, at one point adding Phyrexian dreadnoughts and snuff outs. When they decided to try out Goyf the deck began to come into its own:

4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
4 Snuff Out
4 Sinkhole

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou

Sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Krosan Grip
3 Diabolic Edict

A far cry from present-day lists. The additions of Delver of Secrets, Liliana of the Veil, Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay in recent years have enabled Team America to become one of the most competitive tempo decks in Legacy.


III. Core List

The current core of Team America consists of the following cards:

Creatures

4 Deathrite Shaman - The best creature in the deck. He does it all: acceleration, threat, and stabilizer. While not as aggressive as a Turn One Delver, this card enables some of most insane starts for the deck.

4 Delver of Secrets - The namesake of legacy's tempo decks. This card helps the deck put pressure on your opponent fast and is at its best when played within the first two turns. You should never play less than four for this reason alone.

4 Tarmogoyf - Good ol' Goyf. This card provides a huge body at such low cost that can stabilize the board against more aggressive creature decks and clock combo, midrange, and control pretty fast.

Instants

4 Brainstorm - Arguably the best card in legacy. With a fetchland its almost Ancestral Recall. In this deck Brainstorm helps ensure our Delvers flip in addition to all its other amazing uses.

4 Abrupt Decay - The other reason to play Green and Black. While less efficient than Lightning Bolt and Swords to Plowshares, it makes up for it by being uncounterable and more flexible overall.

3-4 Force of Will - Often called "the glue" that holds Legacy together. While bad in fair matchups, it is still a manaless catch-all answer that can be used to out-tempo your opponent when used rightly.

4 Daze - The other manaless counter that helps the deck generate tempo. You should be less selective with this spell in what you want to counter much of the time since Daze gets worse as the the game goes into the mid and late game. There are exceptions to this though, like when you want save it for a counter war against a combo deck.

Sorceries

3-4 Ponder - Pretty much Brainstorm 5-8, though without a fetch it is usually better than Brainstorm at digging for answers or action. Personally I'm hesitant to play less than 4 since cantrips allow tempo decks to be highly consistent and adaptable to many different situations. I would never go below 3.

2-4 Hymn to Tourach - Consider this card the Stifle of the deck as you often want it to hit lands when you play it. It is less consistent than Stifle at denying your opponent mana but more explosive and does much more in general. At its best when played in the early game to force your opponent to stumble.

The Mana Base

The configuration of the mana base depends on your build. More blue heavy builds usually run a 2-1 split between Tropical Island and Bayou respectively while traditional black heavy builds run the reverse split. Anways, here's a skeleton for Team America's manabase:

8-9 BUG Color fetches
1-2 Tropical Island
1-2 Bayou
3-4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland - Not really a land, but don't be hesitant to use for mana it if it gets a Goyf on the table!


IV. Maindeck Flex Slots

Assuming you follow the above core list, the remaining slots are usually filled with following cards, depending on meta and preference:

Creatures

1-3 Tombstalkers - The traditional "resilient" beater of the deck. He's fantastic against any fair deck not playing white. Best in metas with not too many Swords, Jace, Rest in Peace, etc.
1-3 Dark Confidant - Bob provides the deck another angle of attack by giving it more grinding power. He will not end the game fast like Tombstalker, but like Deathrite Shaman he will put you so far ahead that you should eventually win.
1-3 True-Name Nemesis - The most resilient threat for the deck to fill out the last few creature slots.

Instant

1-2 Disfigure - A supplemental removal spell. Effective for killing must kill one-drops like Mother of Runes, Goblin Lackey, opposing Deathrite Shamans, etc.

1 Dismember - Another supplemental removal spell that can kill more creatures than Disfigure. This card can often kill a Goyf. However, the potential life loss can sometimes matter.

Sorcery

2-3 Thoughtseize - The other discard spell to consider. Less exposive than Hymn to Tourach but more consistent since you get to choose what card to take. The information is often very helpful as well.

Misc.

1-3 Liliana of the Veil - This card is a peculiar consideration at first since planeswalkers have not traditionally been part of tempo maindecks. However, Liliana provides awesome incremental advantage at such a low cost, making her the exception. Played Turn 2 off a Deathrite is a particularly powerful play that can shut down many decks. In Team America she allows you to grind into the mid and late game.

1 Sylvan Library - Your other option for cheap incremental advantage.


V. Common Sideboard Cards

Creatures

1-2 Vendilion Clique - The most common creature in a Team America sideboard. Great against combo, control, and any deck with Stoneforge Mystic.

Instants

1-2 Diabolic Edict - Another supplemental removal spell. This effect is already provided well enough by Liliana of the Veil, but its not unheard of to see this in some sideboards for those who want a mix of removal.

2-3 Disfigure - Same reason as in previous section.

1 Dismember - Same reason as in previous section.

2-3 Golgari Charm - One of the best sideboard cards Team America has access to. You will mostly use its first two modes, but the third can be put to good use sometimes.

1-2 Krosan Grip - Mostly an answer to Batterskull but can be used to good effect in other matchups.

2-3 Spell Pierce - For those times where you want more counter magic, which is usually against combo and control.

Sorceries

1 Hymn to Tourach - For those who want another Hymn in some matchups.

1-2 Thoughtseize - For those who want more spot discard postboard.

Misc.

1-2 Grafdigger's Cage - Your primary graveyard hate card with the added bonus of being phenomenal against Elves.

1 Null Rod - Even if this isn't vintage, there are still powerful artifacts you want to hate on.

1-2 Pithing Needle - A highly flexible hate card since there are many permanents with activated abilities being used.

1 Jace, The Mind Sculptor - This card is very helpful in many fair matchups like stoneblade and the mirror. However, Jace is a 4 drop so you shouldn't play more than 1 in the board if you play him at all.

1-2 Liliana of the Veil - Sometimes you want more Lilianas postboard.

1 Sylvan Library - This card is a very good singleton sb card as well. In some matchups it doesn't do enough so sometimes its just better to have it in the board to bring it in for those matchups you actually want it.


VI. General Strategic Guidlines

Here are some guildlines to keep in mind when playing Team America:

1. DEATHRITE SHAMAN IS KING: Turn one against an unknown opponent Deathrite Shaman is this deck's best first play. To quote Bob Huang: "I go Deathrite Shaman into Hymn to Tourach, discarding two lands, and crush him. Team America has so many broken openings like this one. Deathrite Shaman + Hymn to Tourach + Daze Wasteland Delver of Secrets is incredibly backbreaking against almost every deck in the format."

2. THIS IS NOT RUG DELVER: I mentioned earlier that this deck seeks to generate Tempo through a "Tapout" method. With traditional builds you are often better off trying to cast as many spells as possible in the early game. There exceptions to this though. For instance, it is best to play one threat at a time for the most part against miracles if you can afford to so that they don't get value out of Terminus.
.
3. DISRUPTION IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN THREATS MUCH OF THE TIME: There are times where the opening hands of this deck are either very threat heavy with no disruption and disruption heavy with no threats. Since this is legacy, heavy disruption hands are better in most situations than threat heavy hands. Interacting with your opponent is key in many games, especially against combo. Again though it's all dependent on the match up. In the dark though, I'm fine keeping a disruption heavy hand, especially if it has a cantrip or two. On the other hand I'm hesitant to keep a threat heavy hand in the dark because you will just be dead to any combo deck unless they brick really hard.


VII. Matchup Analysis and Sideboarding Guide

The purpose of this section is to give an idea what to do against decks considered Tier 1-1.5. Credit goes to Bob Huang for the sideboarding advice and some of the matchup analysis. Keep in mind that the sideboarding advice is just to give you an idea of how to sideboard with this deck and is influenced by Bob Huang's playstyle. You should really be sideboarding in response to how your opponent plays and what they do in postboard games. Also, keep in mind all matchup ratings apply to Game 1 only. Match ups may become favorable, even, or unfavorable postboard, in which case I will state how much better or worse a matchup becomes postboard.

First things first, the sideboarding advice refers to Lawrence Moo Young's Open winning list:

BUG Delver by Lawrence Moo Young
1st at SCG Legacy Open Orlando

Creatures (14)

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker

Planeswalkers (2)

2 Liliana of the Veil

Instants (16)

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

Sorceries (8)

4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder

Lands (20)

2 Bayou
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard

1 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Disfigure
3 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
3 Spell Pierce
1 Submerge
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Creeping Tar Pit

Here is the guide itself:

RUG Delver Favored

-4 FoW, -2 Hymn on play, - 2 Daze, -2 FoW, -2 Hymn on draw

+3 Disfigure, +1 Submerge, +1 Liliana, +1 Tar Pit

RUG is still alive and kicking, though it has seen better days. On the play you need to respect Stifle more. Some people like to keep to Force of Will on the draw because of Stifle. As long as you can establish your landbase and don't get blown out by Submerge in postboard games, you should be able to win.


UWR Delver Even

-1 Tombstalker, -4 FoW, -4 Daze

+3 Disfigure, +3 Golgari Charm, +1 KGrip, +1 Clique, +1 Liliana

This matchup can be pretty skill intensive. If neither side can successfully execute a one-sided blow out the game becomes really grindy. While TNN is something to respect, Stoneforge Mystic is usually more scary since they can often shut you down with an early Batterskull. This means it might be worth to hold back onto that one Abrupt Decay instead of killing that Delver if there's a chance they have Stoneforge in their hand. Also, since they play so much more removal than RUG, it might be better to play discard spells prior to playing threats in the early game.

ANT Favored

-2 Tombstalker, -1 Bayou, -3 Abrupt Decay

+1 Grafdigger’s, +3 Pierce, +1 Clique, +1 Liliana

This matchup is pretty easy in my opinion as long as you know how their deck works. There's not too much to say here. Play a threat early and disrupt them as they get clocked. Hymn is a beast in this matchup since they need a critical mass of cards to go off. Play Golgari Charm over Abrupt Decay if you see Burning Wish since that makes it more likely that they have access to Empty the Warrens. Otherwise Abrupt Decay is better since it can kill LED.

Elves Unfavored

-1 Bayou, -4 Daze, -4 Hymn, -2 Liliana

+1 Grafdigger’s, +3 Disfigure, +3 Golgari Charm, +3 Spell Pierce, +1 Submerge

Ah Combo Elves. One of the most interesting and frustrating matchups. Game 1 you must focus on tempoing them out. Preboard you lack the tools to keep control of the board for long. Your flyers (Delver/ Tombstalker if you have them) are your best threats. Post board you get a little more wiggle room in your game plan but should still focus on closing the game out as soon as possible since Elves has the ability both to race us without comboing off and grind us out with their synergies. Postboard Natural Order for Craterhoof becomes more difficult since you have so much removal so you usually just have to keep them off Natural Order for Proggy or Glimpse.


EsperBlade Even or Unfavored

-1 Bayou, -1 Sea, -4 FoW, -2 Tombstalker, -2 Daze

+3 Disfigure, +3 Golgari Charm, +1 KGrip, +1 Clique, +1 Liliana, +1 Tar Pit

I find this matchup to be highly dependent on the list. Stock TNN lists are even in my opinion since we have ways to deal with/ race TNN. More traditional lists with Lingering Souls are more of a headache, turning the matchup into an unfavorable one preboard at least. Either way we are definitely the beat down. Try to get them to stumble with wasteland and Hymn. Don’t overextend into Supreme Verdict if you can afford to. Like the UWR matchup Stoneforge Mystic is more scary and usually is a must kill/counter on sight. Also, don’t let them resolve Jace. You’re going have a bad day if they do except in corner cases where you too far ahead for it to matter.

BUG Delver Even

-4 FoW, -1 Daze

+3 Disfigure, +1 Submerge, +1 Liliana

I find the mirror to be even like UWR Delver in which the die roll can heavily influence the outcome and games either end quickly via one-sided blowouts or after a long war of attrition where the person who can stick a threat the longest or generate an insurmountable advantage wins. Deathrite Shaman’s pretty important in the mirror and thus you should not let one stick. If your opponent has one and you don’t it is easy to fall behind fast.

Sneak and Show Unfavored

-1 Bayou, -2 Tombstalker, -4 Abrupt Decay

+1 Liliana, +3 Spell Pierce, +1 Clique, +1 KGrip, +1 Golgari Charm

This is one of the few matchups I would rather avoid. It’s not that it’s entirely hopeless so much as their deck can sometimes just nut draw you out and there is nothing you can do about it. This is just a matter of Sneak and Show (arguably) being the best combo deck in legacy at the moment since it has a good balance of speed, resilience, consistency, and power. All and all, our game plan is the same as against any other combo deck: ride one or two threats to victory and disrupt them while you clock them. Postboard you often have to worry about blood moon and leyline of sanctity often.

Death and Taxes Unfavored

-4 FoW, -4 Daze, -2 Ponder

+3 Disfigure, +3 Golgari Charm, +1 KGrip, +1 Clique, +1 Liliana, +1 Tar Pit

This MU is usually bad preboard. Postboard it gets much better since you have all the removal in the world to kill all their stupid white creatures. I’m usually a fan of keeping Liliana and Hymn in even though it’s a risk with potential sb Wilt-Leaf Lieges. However, they have no card advantage so hymn and Liliana are brutal when they don’t have their lieges.

Death Blade Even

-4 FoW, -1 Sea, -4 Daze

+3 Disfigure, +2 Golgari Charm, +1 KGrip, +1 Clique, +1 Liliana, +1 Tar Pit

Legacy’s premiere goodstuff deck. All advice for Esperblade pretty much applies here except Tombstalker is playable here since they have fewer Jaces usually and no Rest in Peace postboard.

Shardless BUG Even

-4 FoW, -1 Sea, -1 Abrupt Decay

+3 Disfigure, +1 Submerge, +1 Tar Pit, +1 Liliana

Hymn and wasteland are your best friends in this match up. You need to try and get them to stumble with those cards and other disruption since they will out value you in the long run if you don’t.

Miracles Even

-1 Bayou, -1 Sea, -2 Tombstalker, -4 Daze, -2 Deathrite Shaman
+3 Golgari Charm, +1 KGrip, +3 Spell Pierce, +1 Clique, +1 Liliana, +1 Tar Pit

This matchup is about killing them as fast as you can without overextending into Terminus. However, with that said, know when it’s time to get all your dudes on the board for an alpha strike. Use your discard and Liliana to grind their hand down while also clocking them. Postboard you want to side in any permanent based hate or advantage generators like Pithing Needle, Null Rod, Sylvan Library, and Jace, the Mind Sculptor, etc.


VIII. Other Successful Lists

BUG Delver
Greg Mitchell
1st Place at StarCityGames.com Legacy Open on 3/16/2014

Creatures (14)

1 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Tombstalker
1 True-Name Nemesis
Planeswalkers (1)

1 Liliana of the Veil
Lands (20)

2 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
Spells (25)

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
2 Disfigure
3 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
Sideboard

1 Sylvan Library
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Disfigure
1 Envelop
1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse

BUG Delver
Javier Dominguez
1st Place at Grand Prix on 2/16/2014
Legacy


Creatures (14)

2 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
Planeswalkers (3)

3 Liliana of the Veil
Lands (20)

2 Bayou
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
Spells (23)

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
Sideboard

1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
1 Engineered Plague
1 Sylvan Library
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Disfigure
1 Dismember
1 Force of Will
2 Golgari Charm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Hymn to Tourach

BUG Delver
Daniel Signorini
9th Place at Grand Prix on 11/17/2013
Legacy


Creatures (14)

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker
Lands (20)

2 Bayou
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
Spells (26)

1 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 Disfigure
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
Sideboard

1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sylvan Library
2 Disfigure
3 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
2 Spell Pierce
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Creeping Tar Pit

IX. Helpful Articles
Greg Mitchell's SCG Seattle Report (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28131_Leaving-A-Legacy-BUG-Delver-At-SCGSEA.html)
Bob Huang's SCG Baltimore Report (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27826_Leaving-a-Legacy-Team-America-in-SCGBalt.html)
Bob Huang's GP DC and SCG Providence Report (http://www.channelfireball.com/home/team-america-in-dc-top-16/)
The Old Primer (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?11605-DTB-Team-America-(Aggro-Tempo-Thread))

Shout out to Daniel Signorini, Bob Huang, and anyone else who was instrumental in making Team America what it is today. I'd also like to thank TheArchitect (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/member.php?30954-TheArchitect) for the banner above and Einherjer (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/member.php?32365-Einherjer) for providing good points (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?11605-DTB-Team-America-(Aggro-Tempo-Thread)/page183) for the miracles matchup analysis. And remember guys, the deck is called:

http://i736.photobucket.com/albums/xx1/shrubs350/ab09e9bd-b349-4fcc-bbd8-19eb66099f8b_zps27785105.jpg
(Thank shrubs (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/member.php?36148-shrubs) for this one XD)

Thorhammer
03-12-2014, 12:16 AM
Nice work on the initial primer opening Dragonslayer. I approve what has been done so far. It is definitely cool to see the origins of the deck and how far it has come.

Here is the list I am planning on taking down SCG Seattle with:

Lands: 20

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

Creatures: 14

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker

Spells: 26

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard:
3 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Spell Pierce
1 Envelop
1 Sylvan Library
1 Vendillion Clique
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Krosan Krip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Submerge



Any last minute thoughts on the list? I am leaning towards hymnstalker because TNN hasn't had a chance to play in Seattle yet so I am predicting more UWR. I think Hymn to tourach is just bonkers right now. One thing I am wondering is if I should diversify the sideboard and main decks slightly buy cutting a FOW from the main and moving it to the board in exchange for the Library or something else.

Envelop is a concession to miracles though I don't know if its worth it. Spell pierce just hits more stuff most of the time, even though it will never counter a terminus or an entreat.

Dragonslayer_90
03-12-2014, 12:43 AM
Nice work on the initial primer opening Dragonslayer. I approve what has been done so far. It is definitely cool to see the origins of the deck and how far it has come.

Any last minute thoughts on the list? I am leaning towards hymnstalker because TNN hasn't had a chance to play in Seattle yet so I am predicting more UWR. I think Hymn to tourach is just bonkers right now. One thing I am wondering is if I should diversify the sideboard and main decks slightly buy cutting a FOW from the main and moving it to the board in exchange for the Library or something else.

Envelop is a concession to miracles though I don't know if its worth it. Spell pierce just hits more stuff most of the time, even though it will never counter a terminus or an entreat.

Thanks Thorhammer! I'm hoping to get this done maybe by the end of the week before my break ends. We'll see if that happens.

As for your list your predicting UWR as the stoneforge deck that will have most representation, I agree that stalker will be the best choice in those last few creature slots.

On cutting Force of Will from the main deck, I am sort of opposed to it in stalker lists. It's kind of okay in confidant lists because it make bob less suicidal, but there are two reasons to consider not cutting the 4th FoW in stalker lists: 1. Your instant sorcery count for delver is already kind of low-ish. 2. The main deck blue count is already kind of low as well. I would consider moving the 4th force to the board only if you are expecting fair decks to overwhelmingly outnumber unfair decks in the open field. I don't know anything about the west coast meta so that's up to you really.

Envelop is actually not that bad in other matchups you would want it. It counters a lot of key combo cards like infernal tutor and Show and Tell. Again, it's a meta call of how well represented you expect miracles and combo to be in the field. Joe Lossett plays in pretty much every west coast open right?

phazonmutant
03-12-2014, 04:21 AM
Any last minute thoughts on the list? I am leaning towards hymnstalker because TNN hasn't had a chance to play in Seattle yet so I am predicting more UWR. I think Hymn to tourach is just bonkers right now. One thing I am wondering is if I should diversify the sideboard and main decks slightly buy cutting a FOW from the main and moving it to the board in exchange for the Library or something else.

Envelop is a concession to miracles though I don't know if its worth it. Spell pierce just hits more stuff most of the time, even though it will never counter a terminus or an entreat.

I'm not a huge fan of Needle. Enemy #1 against Blade decks is Batterskull, which Needle only sometimes stops. You need to either have it before Stoneforge is active or you need to spend a card to kill the Germ. Against Miracles, it's good against Top, but Einherjer mentioned in his report that a single hate card is not enough. Against lands it's surprisingly awful - you'll only catch a Lands player with their pants down if they're bad or you're lucky.

I prefer playing an answer card. Right now I'm on Pulse, but Bob Hwuang has been advocating another Grip. I'm worried about Miracles, and Pulse is better against the ways they beat us - Entreat for 2-3 while leaving up Pierce mana, and forcing through Jace.


As far as the Seattle meta, don't believe that TNN hasn't arrived. There's a ton of Delver, plenty of Miracles, and a depressing number of Stoneblade decks. Overall, it's more blue-saturated and combo-light than most other areas.

Asthereal
03-12-2014, 04:45 AM
I don't think Confidant and Stalker can be compared solely.

Stalker is a fat beater that ends the game quickly if he lands. We use him in a tempo plan. We disrupt early, drop the fattie and race for the win. Confidant hardly every attacks, so playing him asks for a grindy game plan where we sit back, wait for our hand to fill up with other business and go for the win later. It depends on the expected meta and your own playing style whether sitting back is a better idea than to just go for the kill as soon as you can. Also if you choose to play the grindier game, I think your list should be tuned accordingly. Just playing the standard list with -2 Stalker, +2 Confidant probably won't work optimally, since the standard list is well tuned for Stalker and its strategy, and not so much for the controllish strategy.

wwoning
03-12-2014, 08:28 AM
Also if you choose to play the grindier game, I think your list should be tuned accordingly. Just playing the standard list with -2 Stalker, +2 Confidant probably won't work optimally, since the standard list is well tuned for Stalker and its strategy, and not so much for the controllish strategy.

I would be very interested in your thoughts on this Asthereal! What list / card choices would you suggest?

Also, great to see the primer rewritten Dragonslayer, great work! Looking forward to seeing it updated.

Asthereal
03-12-2014, 09:44 AM
I would be very interested in your thoughts on this Asthereal! What list / card choices would you suggest?
One card I would probably not play in a Confidant list is Hymn to Tourach. Grindy games ask for targeted solutions, giving you the choice what cards you want to respond to and what cards you can tolerate for the time being. Spell Pierce and Disfigure would be my first choices as replacements. Targeted discard could also work. It does in EsperBlade variants, which are also a bit more controllish.

I haven't tested any Confidant lists yet, so I'm not 100% sure what choices I'd make, but that's where I'd start.
(Seriously, I went top-8 twice in a row with Stalkers. I'm not ready to switch just yet. :tongue: )

limbo
03-12-2014, 12:45 PM
One card I would probably not play in a Confidant list is Hymn to Tourach. Grindy games ask for targeted solutions, giving you the choice what cards you want to respond to and what cards you can tolerate for the time being. Spell Pierce and Disfigure would be my first choices as replacements. Targeted discard could also work.

I have to disagree as this does not make a lot of sense to me. Here is my thinking: In longer grindier games, card advantage/resource advantage matters. This is why force of will comes out in grindy matchups like against stoneblade. Hymn is a 2 for 1 and the power of the random aspect is not trivial. When you are running bob you are making card advantage part of your game plan. While hymn is frequently a poor late game draw, most of the suggested cards are as well (yes gamestate and hand contents matter, etc). Targeted discard is very strong against combo decks and decks that need specific cards to beat you, but those are not traditionally grindy decks or matchups. The question of whether you want hymn post board is of course very different and depends largely on the matchups. I think if you are running bob that hymn should be high on your include list, not remove list.

nodahero
03-12-2014, 12:57 PM
I have been running BUG delver variants for about the last 3 months now and I am strongly on the Confidant boat myself.

Stalker is a very brittle cannon to me. If he gets bounced by Jace (not nearly as common anymore), then he is basically dead for the remainder of the game. Additionally Goyf and DRS are not huge fans of his either.

TMM is simply very volatile in the current format. He is a known quantity and your oppnents will have solutions to him.

Confidant, while getting splash damage from TNN has proven his worth through the insane amount of card advantage he generates. In my meta, there is an extremely large amount of combo running around so having excess to CA and a clock has been very good for me. While, Confidant favors a grindy game, I disagree that Hymm isn't worth it. Hymm is still a solid 2 for 1 and can occasionally set your opponent worlds farther back then a Seize could ever hope to and Confidant can continue to further the advantage of Hymm by pressuring your opponent to commit earlier for fear of more discard/counters.

My list eschews all the Abrupt Decays in favor of a heavier control suite game 1. I run the standard set of Decays in the bored and have consistenly been rewarded. My overall match record with the Confidant Variant is 29-7.

Dragonslayer_90
03-12-2014, 01:09 PM
I also have to disagree on not playing hymn in Confidant lists. Hymn is actually a good card in the early game of attrition wars because it grinds your opponent's hand down even if it is a bad top deck. That is just the nature of discard in general. Amazing in the early game, decent mid game, mostly bad in the late game. If hymn is bad with Confidant why does Jund, THE ATTRITION DECK, play hymn along side confidant. I have been testing a confidant list that is close to the hymn stalker lists except it plays one less land and a 3-2 split between hymn and thoughtseize respectively. It has tested pretty well against miracles, though you still have to play tightly against them as the match up is pretty even on both sides assuming both are good pilots and the Team America player is running Dark Confidant in place of Stalker. I haven't played against much UWR or Deathblade yet but I'd imagine Confidant's pretty good against them as well since those decks are pretty slow in killing you. I also really like Confidant against Show and Tell decks, another match up I've gotten to test a decent amount. They do nothing to pressure your life total so you can play Confidant at any point to draw into more disruption to keep control of the game. The only combo decks I don't like him is where changes in your life total affects their combo like Tendrils Storm decks. The fair decks I don't like having him are against the more aggressive ones like RUG. Tombstalker is better against them.

Griselpuff
03-12-2014, 04:46 PM
What are your changes nodahero? I would argue that you want as much removal as possible with confidant and cutting decays seem bad.

Thorhammer
03-13-2014, 06:02 AM
I'm not a huge fan of Needle. Enemy #1 against Blade decks is Batterskull, which Needle only sometimes stops. You need to either have it before Stoneforge is active or you need to spend a card to kill the Germ. Against Miracles, it's good against Top, but Einherjer mentioned in his report that a single hate card is not enough. Against lands it's surprisingly awful - you'll only catch a Lands player with their pants down if they're bad or you're lucky.

I prefer playing an answer card. Right now I'm on Pulse, but Bob Hwuang has been advocating another Grip. I'm worried about Miracles, and Pulse is better against the ways they beat us - Entreat for 2-3 while leaving up Pierce mana, and forcing through Jace.


As far as the Seattle meta, don't believe that TNN hasn't arrived. There's a ton of Delver, plenty of Miracles, and a depressing number of Stoneblade decks. Overall, it's more blue-saturated and combo-light than most other areas.

Good points. Joe losset will Defnitely be there but I've heard he is on tezzeret. I do like pulse. Needle just seems to hit multiple things and is a way to stop the depths combo or get out from underneath a wasteland lock. Pulse does answer more things though. Needle on sensei's top is just sooooo good. I might try the pulse though as a good catch all. Do you bring it in against sneak and show? Imperial painter?

Asthereal
03-13-2014, 06:50 AM
I have to disagree as this does not make a lot of sense to me. Here is my thinking: In longer grindier games, card advantage/resource advantage matters. This is why force of will comes out in grindy matchups like against stoneblade. Hymn is a 2 for 1 and the power of the random aspect is not trivial. When you are running bob you are making card advantage part of your game plan. While hymn is frequently a poor late game draw, most of the suggested cards are as well (yes gamestate and hand contents matter, etc). Targeted discard is very strong against combo decks and decks that need specific cards to beat you, but those are not traditionally grindy decks or matchups. The question of whether you want hymn post board is of course very different and depends largely on the matchups. I think if you are running bob that hymn should be high on your include list, not remove list.
I highlighted the part why I feel discard is bad in grindy games.
If a game runs long, discard will do nothing at all.
They draw a card and play it. Discard cannot influence that at all.

Disfigure at least influences the board state, which is an important thing in grindy games.
Spell Pierce at least can be sandbagged to try and counter something they cast. Especially stuff like Jace and expensive removal.

The worst cards in grindy games are:
- Force of Will (like you said)
- Daze (becomes a dead card quickly)
- Discard spells (explained above)

The best cards are:
- Creatures
- Removal
- Cantrips
- Planeswalkers
(- Hard counters)

Force of Will is needed to not lose against combo. Daze is very good on the play, so you could decide to run those on side and make sure you really only have it on the play, but this runs into issues with the blue count for FoW. A suite with counters and maybe discard is needed to make sure combo doesn't become an auto-loss.

The thing is, you cannot optimize your list. Going for the optimal grindy list will make you bad against combo. Going for the best tempo list will make you worse against controllish decks. It's a trade-off. But note that my main point was only that you cannot just compare Confidant and Stalker as such. They serve different purposes that comply with different strategies. Your choice influences other card choices as well. Cards that rock in the early turns will be worse for you if you aim for longer games. My suggestion to cut Hymn isn't sacred. Maybe Daze should be the one that goes.

limbo
03-13-2014, 01:56 PM
Regardless of your build, the first 3 turns are the most important ones. Hymn in the early turns allows you to lean on your opponents and direct the action.

I agree confidant, TNN and stalker can not be directly compared or directly swapped. I don't think anyone suggested that, or if they did I missed it. My confidant build for example is 19 land 10 cantrips, only 1 lily, while my TNN and tombstalker builds were 20 lands, 8 cantrips, 2-3 lily and different spell mixes. And the sideboards are different. Anyway...

Dragonslayer_90
03-13-2014, 02:29 PM
If a game runs long, discard will do nothing at all.
They draw a card and play it. Discard cannot influence that at all.

The thing is, you cannot optimize your list. Going for the optimal grindy list will make you bad against combo. Going for the best tempo list will make you worse against controllish decks. It's a trade-off. But note that my main point was only that you cannot just compare Confidant and Stalker as such. They serve different purposes that comply with different strategies. Your choice influences other card choices as well. Cards that rock in the early turns will be worse for you if you aim for longer games. My suggestion to cut Hymn isn't sacred. Maybe Daze should be the one that goes.

Just because discard is bad in long grindy games (I think it is still very valuable in the early game of attrition wars), does not make it inferior in a Confidant list. We are not trying to build the best BUG Midrange deck here. This is Team America, a tempo deck that can also midrange, though not as good as something like Shardless BUG. I kind of see us as closer UWR than RUG in that respect. We can have some pretty aggressive starts, even more aggressive than UWR really, but we can also come back if we get a little behind unlike RUG. UWR has a similar gameplan of tempoing out the opponent but they can also play magic into the mid and late game due to their 7-8 removal spells and Stoneforge package. The fact of the matter is that discard gives the deck another angle of attack and is actually often stronger than counterspells in the early game because you don't have to wait for your opponent to cast something in order to disrupt their game plan. If we really wanted to optimize our use of Confidant in the main deck we should probably cut the delvers as well because it is pretty bad in the mid and late game, but at that point you are looking to play a different deck, not Team America. Dark Confidant serves a similar role to Liliana of the Vei in this deck. It is another "slow card" that ensures our deck does not run out of gas by providing incremental card advantage. This makes us slower but this maybe the way to go in a meta full of blade decks and miracle control. Also, discard is pretty good against those kinds of decks. All and all, I'd rather play a deck that gives me a chance against both fair and unfair decks in a metagame where combo decks still constitute a good portion of the field than the best grindy deck because the best grindy deck, like you said, loses to combo much of the time.

More news on the primer: I've posted a banner in the post where I'm working on the new primer. I've posted two verisions: a large and small version. Do let me know what you guys think of the design and whether you think the small or big version would be better for the primer.

nodahero
03-13-2014, 03:58 PM
My confidant list is as follows plus minus a few counts depending on who I see at the event...

4 Delver
4 Goyf
4 DRS
2 Confidant

4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Hymm
2 Thoughtseize
4 Spellpierce

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

20 Land

The board is generally
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Disfigure
1 Dark Confidant
2 Liliana
4 misc control spells

Again my maindeck is geared at hating on combo way more then other midrange/aggro lists. My meta is probably 85% combo. The random 15% other decks tend to be either Delver/Mystic decks hence the the 8 removal spell package plus lilly Confidant.

kingsey
03-13-2014, 05:19 PM
how do you guys fight miracles. That matchup has been very difficult for me

I still run winter orb in my board, it also hoses lands to an extent.

limbo
03-13-2014, 11:21 PM
winter orb

Nice, I like that.

wwoning
03-14-2014, 07:52 AM
Primer looks great so far Dragonslayer! I'm looking forward to the Sideboard-section.

exallium
03-14-2014, 08:49 AM
My confidant list is as follows plus minus a few counts depending on who I see at the event...

4 Delver
4 Goyf
4 DRS
2 Confidant

4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Hymm
2 Thoughtseize
4 Spellpierce

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

20 Land

The board is generally
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Disfigure
1 Dark Confidant
2 Liliana
4 misc control spells

Again my maindeck is geared at hating on combo way more then other midrange/aggro lists. My meta is probably 85% combo. The random 15% other decks tend to be either Delver/Mystic decks hence the the 8 removal spell package plus lilly Confidant.

Honestly, Move 1 force of will to the board... Most decks running any number of bobs do this, if not because taking 5 to the face to draw a (sometimes irrelevant) counterspell feels bad.

EDIT: Also, GREAT WORK on the primer. Looking forward to card choice explanations, and different build examples etc.

EDIT 2: Did not read the 85% combo meta part. My advice is for a balanced meta... there's a post below that addresses a hugely combo-biased meta =P

Zombie
03-14-2014, 09:06 AM
Honestly, Move 1 force of will to the board... Most decks running any number of bobs do this, if not because taking 5 to the face to draw a (sometimes irrelevant) counterspell feels bad.

EDIT: Also, GREAT WORK on the primer. Looking forward to card choice explanations, and different build examples etc.

"My meta is 85% combo"
"Move 4th FoW to the board"

...

exallium
03-14-2014, 09:15 AM
"My meta is 85% combo"
"Move 4th FoW to the board"

...

Time for me to read things closer... Coffee should help.

That sounds like a terribly boring meta to deal with =P

That being said, I'd probably want my "control spells" to consist of things like:

1 Clique
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1-2 Flusterstorm
0-1 Arcane Laboratory (Actually, opinions on this would be good... I think it really only has a home in a largely combo meta.)
0-1 Null Rod

nodahero
03-14-2014, 11:49 AM
Honestly, if I could find a different deck for my meta I would. Sadly though, short of classic RUG Delver I couldn't imagine a better list for such a combo-centric meta. Do you guys have any input on either an alternative deck or a more anti-combo package main or side?

Thorhammer
03-14-2014, 11:52 AM
One combo hoser I have found is zur's weirding. Hear me out. Every combo deck that has to find specific cards to win just flat out folds to it. I've had success with it against combo before. It's even good against miracles as it, ya know stops miracles. I'd only run it in a combo heavy meta though.

KobeBryan
03-14-2014, 01:14 PM
This card hoses brainstorm pretty bad.

KobeBryan
03-14-2014, 01:18 PM
My confidant list is as follows plus minus a few counts depending on who I see at the event...

4 Delver
4 Goyf
4 DRS
2 Confidant

4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Hymm
2 Thoughtseize
4 Spellpierce

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

20 Land

The board is generally
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Disfigure
1 Dark Confidant
2 Liliana
4 misc control spells

Again my maindeck is geared at hating on combo way more then other midrange/aggro lists. My meta is probably 85% combo. The random 15% other decks tend to be either Delver/Mystic decks hence the the 8 removal spell package plus lilly Confidant.

Kids...this is a reason not to net deck the best deck that won the tournament.

If you have 85% combo meta, I suggest you play tombstalker over bob.