[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

[Esper3k]

Kids...this is a reason not to net deck the best deck that won the tournament.

If you have 85% combo meta, I suggest you play tombstalker over bob.

You're trolling, right?

[Dragonslayer_90]

Kids...this is a reason not to net deck the best deck that won the tournament.

If you have 85% combo meta, I suggest you play tombstalker over bob.

Tombstalker is too slow to keep in postboard against most combo decks. I side him out everytime I play against storm and show and tell. I only keep him in against Elves because the flying makes him better than goyf much of the time. Bob, on the other hand, gives you a bit more options in how to play combo matchups. I actually keep him in against show and tell decks because, like I said earlier, Dark Confidant makes up for his slow clock by drawing you one extra card per turn, which often enables you to more consistently maintain control over your combo opponent. Show and Tell does nothing to pressure your life total before they combo off so you're okay to be liberal with your life total via Bob. Against storm and elves though, I'd side them out since your life total is actually relevant to their game plans.

[KobeBryan]

and bob will help you do any better?

you gotta end the game against combo asap. the 2 tombstalkers do that for you.

When i play against ANT, show and tell, i don't take out tombstalkers, but take out library, abrupt decays, a land, and whatever else...but i wouldn't board out a creature against combo, you gotta smack their face.

[nodahero]

I agree completely with Dragonslayer on his analysis. I actually only run 2 confidant as a concession to finding a healthy balance in my bored for post game 1 fights.

PS In my combocentric meta, would Grixis Delver be a better option? It seems like it given the addition of Stifle in that list but then I trade Goyf for Pyromancer... Hindsight I could just pack Stifle in BUG Delver.

Anyone with insight on the Grixis Delver side? I havn't tested that variant at all.

[exallium]

I agree completely with Dragonslayer on his analysis. I actually only run 2 confidant as a concession to finding a healthy balance in my bored for post game 1 fights.

PS In my combocentric meta, would Grixis Delver be a better option? It seems like it given the addition of Stifle in that list but then I trade Goyf for Pyromancer... Hindsight I could just pack Stifle in BUG Delver.

Anyone with insight on the Grixis Delver side? I havn't tested that variant at all.

Not really. Grixis Delver is essentially, from what I've seen, Snapcaster, Bob, and YP, all of which are amazing, but all of which quickly die to a single pyroclasm, mutilate, golgari charm, etc. I'd rather have goyf against combo.

[catmint]

and bob will help you do any better?

you gotta end the game against combo asap. the 2 tombstalkers do that for you.

When i play against ANT, show and tell, i don't take out tombstalkers, but take out library, abrupt decays, a land, and whatever else...but i wouldn't board out a creature against combo, you gotta smack their face.

You got it wrong Kobe.

Taking out tombstalker versus combo is generally correct but depends on the boarding plan of course. You having space for it post board means something is wrong - either with your 75 or your boarding plan.

Bob is one of the best creatures versus combo. It generally does only 1 less damage than Goyf, usually more than stalker since it can come down turn 2 but most importantly draws you into disruption. That being said I am not a fan of bob in TA. Just commenting on the issue of what is good vs. combo.

[Madmankevinx]

I may have had a "few too many" Heinekens but how vital are the 4 Daze in this deck? I usually win without any help from Daze and am wondering about replacing the 4 slots with something else. No idea what yet and like I said I may be crazy...

[KobeBryan]

I may have had a "few too many" Heinekens but how vital are the 4 Daze in this deck? I usually win without any help from Daze and am wondering about replacing the 4 slots with something else. No idea what yet and like I said I may be crazy...

tempo discard decks need daze...

[Will_L]

I may have had a "few too many" Heinekens but how vital are the 4 Daze in this deck? I usually win without any help from Daze and am wondering about replacing the 4 slots with something else. No idea what yet and like I said I may be crazy...

Ahhhhhhh

Yeah 4 Daze is super clutch for blowing out ppl... Whenever it feels horrible it's either 50/50 you have already lost or it's super late game

[Dragonslayer_90]

I may have had a "few too many" Heinekens but how vital are the 4 Daze in this deck? I usually win without any help from Daze and am wondering about replacing the 4 slots with something else. No idea what yet and like I said I may be crazy...

Don't mean to insult you but I DO think you have had a "few too many" Heinekens :wink:

[Will_L]

How is Sinkhole even considered? Seem's much, much worse than Winter Orb ... Even blowing up a basics.... (I own 4 of each)

Isn't W'Orb the perfect anti-miracles card? Not considering other shitty/random MU's we may face?

I am planning to rock a very normal TA list +1 library +1 lili

IS 3 W'Orb tooo much? MY

[Asthereal]

It's not such a weird idea. Consider how many games you win by Hymning away a land and Wasting the other. If you would also play Sinkhole and Stifle, think how hard you can manascrew them. And back in '08 we had no Deathrites or Delvers, so we focussed more on disruption anyway.

Putting Sinkhole back in the board to battle decks that need their land drops does make sense. Sort of. But yeah Winter Orb could take its place as well. I personally don't play full blown mana denial, but I can see its value.

[Esper3k]

Not only was Sinkhole good at manascrewing someone, but it could really color screw someone. Think about the tri color decks like Esper that play a few basics. They fetch up a basic island to play around Wasteland then get say a Scrubland. If you Sinkhole the Island, you've made it significantly harder for them to reach UU (key since Jace is a real problem for us).

[KobeBryan]

what 4 cards in the sideboard do you propose to take out for sinkholes?

[limbo]

what 4 cards in the sideboard do you propose to take out for sinkholes?

If you are running 4 sinkholes you aren't so much replacing 4 cards as you are overhauling your postboard plan. All 75 work together. You are probably adding another black source to your main, leaning more on soft permission like spell pierce, and rethinking the entire board.

[Water_Wizard]

what 4 cards in the sideboard do you propose to take out for sinkholes?

Here are 3 lists that run Sinkhole in the sideboard. 2 are more recent and 1 is NiteWolf's GP Denver 6th place list from about a year ago:

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=9908&iddeck=72239

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12213&iddeck=89508

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12435&iddeck=91141

[Griselpuff]

Split the finals of an IQ today with the following list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker

4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze

4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Submerge
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 3 Disfigure
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Liliana of the Veil

No GY hate because you can beat Reanimator and Lands without them and Dredge isn't much of a thing anymore. If I were to play GY hate, I'd play Surgical. Liliana is also too insane vs. Delver/TNN as well as being fine vs. Storm/Sneak and Show.

I'm playing more Submerge for the mirror/Elves. Golgari Charm is just too good not to play as a 3 of as it helps in our worser match-ups. If Miracles/Sneak and Show get more popular, I'd play Needle.

As far as Sinkhole goes, it doesn't match up well with DRS so I'm not playing it. Winter Orb is also a situational card and I don't think there are enough hard control decks to warrant playing it.

[KobeBryan]

Split the finals of an IQ today with the following list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker

4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze

4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Submerge
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 3 Disfigure
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Liliana of the Veil

No GY hate because you can beat Reanimator and Lands without them and Dredge isn't much of a thing anymore. If I were to play GY hate, I'd play Surgical. Liliana is also too insane vs. Delver/TNN as well as being fine vs. Storm/Sneak and Show.

I'm playing more Submerge for the mirror/Elves. Golgari Charm is just too good not to play as a 3 of as it helps in our worser match-ups. If Miracles/Sneak and Show get more popular, I'd play Needle.

As far as Sinkhole goes, it doesn't match up well with DRS so I'm not playing it. Winter Orb is also a situational card and I don't think there are enough hard control decks to warrant playing it.

You didn't run into any miracles today huh

[Dragonslayer_90]

That's awesome Akatsuki. Congrats. Was wondering do you ever find yourself siding in any amount of Golgari Charm for the second mode for matchups besides miracles, like Sneak and Show?

On the topic of Miracles, I feel that it will be hard for that deck to have a real upsurge in popularity because its pretty hard to play well and the deck can go to time easily. If you guys ever run into it at your local meta though by all means play 1 or 2 Winter Orb. Still, even if I ever do run into it in an open or something, I'm confidant enough that the Team America sideboard is flexible enough for the match-up to at least be manageable. From my experience playing on Cockatrice the matchup seems pretty even though. Doesn't seem like a blow out on either side really.

[Kowitz]

I won a 5 round event today that then cut to top8. My list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library

Board:

3 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Null Rod
1 Krosan Grip
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Life from the Loam


I plan on playing the same list at SCG LA next weekend. The only changes I might make, are either one more Golgari charm, or a maelstrom pulse in the board, in place of either loam or cutting one disfigure.

[phazonmutant]

So today I went 10-0-2 in matches, 20-3 in games at SCG Seattle. This deck is ok. Tournament report forthcoming (although I need to figure out how SCG decides their guest-writer thingy).

[Water_Wizard]

So today I went 10-0-2 in matches, 20-3 in games at SCG Seattle. This deck is ok. Tournament report forthcoming (although I need to figure out how SCG decides their guest-writer thingy).

Congrats! That's awesome!

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=64858

[Esper3k]

Congrats and well done! Too bad I couldn't stay up to watch the top 8 (stupid West Coast being hours behind the rest of us!) - I'll catch the replay later on today.

[Razorwynd]

So today I went 10-0-2 in matches, 20-3 in games at SCG Seattle. This deck is ok. Tournament report forthcoming (although I need to figure out how SCG decides their guest-writer thingy).

Had a blast watching you battle on camera! Your list seems very experimental as if it was designed to test DC vs TS vs TNN and TS vs Hynm, was that the case? Can not wait to hear your thoughts of the numbers and where to go from here. Congrats!

[Purgatory]

So today I went 10-0-2 in matches, 20-3 in games at SCG Seattle. This deck is ok. Tournament report forthcoming (although I need to figure out how SCG decides their guest-writer thingy).

Congrats! Managed to catch games 2 and 3 in the finals. Especially game 3 was very exciting :)

[Tammit67]

So today I went 10-0-2 in matches, 20-3 in games at SCG Seattle. This deck is ok. Tournament report forthcoming (although I need to figure out how SCG decides their guest-writer thingy).

Congrats Greg! Looking forward to the report

[danyul]

Grats Greggerpoo!

In my experience, SCG doesn't reach out to you to write the Leaving a Legacy thingies. You should tweet at Cedric (since he's the content coordinator for SCG) or email him and 'splain "Hey, I won! I wanna write stuff!" and he will get back to you with a contract thingie and a due date. The sooner you ping him, the better. I think that due date is locked into their publishing schedule or something. Anyways, start writing ahead of time! Even if they poopoo you and don't approve it or whatever, you can still post it here! But I'm pretty sure they will publish it, no problem.

Congrats again! You need to drink a pizza bracket beer out of that trophy!

[Griselpuff]

Great job Greg!

It's funny, I've actually found myself defending your list to people even though mine is quite different. All of the cards you played are cards I've considered and they're basically fulfilling similar roles while giving your opponent's more of a headache when deciding what to play around/how to SB.

My list focuses more on consistently drawing the cards I feel are good in the metagame.

Also I went 3-2 vs. BBD"s Miracles list this past week. I think the match-up is fine.

Finally, I bring in 2 Charms vs. Sneak and Show for their Blood Moons/Leylines/Sneak Attacks.

[HammafistRoob]

Greg Mitchell, I knew I recognized the name from somewhere but I couldn't figure it out. Congrats phazonmuTant, well played sir.

[Thorhammer]

Greg Mitchell, I knew I recognized the name from somewhere but I couldn't figure it out. Congrats phazonmuTant, well played sir.

Nice job Greg! I played you yesterday in the legacy trial. Beat you but my luck ran out then. I lost to joe lossett on camera on account of not using checklist cars for delver. Judge gave me a game loss. So frustrating. Deck was awesome to play though!

[phazonmutant]

Had a blast watching you battle on camera! Your list seems very experimental as if it was designed to test DC vs TS vs TNN and TS vs Hynm, was that the case? Can not wait to hear your thoughts of the numbers and where to go from here. Congrats!


Great job Greg!

It's funny, I've actually found myself defending your list to people even though mine is quite different. All of the cards you played are cards I've considered and they're basically fulfilling similar roles while giving your opponent's more of a headache when deciding what to play around/how to SB.

My list focuses more on consistently drawing the cards I feel are good in the metagame.

Thanks! Razorwynd, it is pretty experimental. I had no idea which of the creatures is better, so i just played one of each. They're all situationally the nut against different decks, and 1 is a lot more than 0. I also feel like most of the cards in the deck you only want to draw 1 of, so playing a lot of 3 ofs gives you more different outs to dig to with your 8 cantrips.

As akatsuki mentioned, playing a bunch of different but similar cards makes it hard for the opponent to know what to play around.

The actual choices though were definitely influenced by my meta - lot of top players on miracles and blade. You should adjust the list to keep your opponents guessing and suit your meta

[lsho]

watched you play yesterday. was a delight. congrats! looking forward to your article!

[Dragonslayer_90]

Thanks! Razorwynd, it is pretty experimental. I had no idea which of the creatures is better, so i just played one of each. They're all situationally the nut against different decks, and 1 is a lot more than 0. I also feel like most of the cards in the deck you only want to draw 1 of, so playing a lot of 3 ofs gives you more different outs to dig to with your 8 cantrips.

As akatsuki mentioned, playing a bunch of different but similar cards makes it hard for the opponent to know what to play around.

The actual choices though were definitely influenced by my meta - lot of top players on miracles and blade. You should adjust the list to keep your opponents guessing and suit your meta

Congrats Phazonmutant! So I was just wondering if, between Confidant, TNN, and Stalker,whether one card outperformed the other two or whether one seemed best in most matchups? After testing a Confidant list for a little while now I still can't decide If I like Confidant better than Tombstalker. Confidant has been pretty good but not good enough for me to say it is objectively better than Tombstalker. I still think whichever one you play is meta and playstyle dependent still. I haven't tested TNN mostly because I'd rather avoid playing the card if I can since I personally dislike it.

[HammafistRoob]

I think Confidant is better if you're playing 4 Thoughtseize, so you have a better chance at having him stick around.

[Nocley]

Grats Greg, nice to see someone I know get the trophy if it couldn't be myself (It's Russ). Also, sorry for calling you a turd.

A few questions though.
1. How many times did you flip over Tombstalker to Bob outside of that one time we played?

2. You say you catered towards the blade matchups, how is the matchup against the ones that are more dependent on Lingering Souls and not TNN?

3. Just curious about some card choices - like disfigures over filling out the Abrupt decays MD, maxing out on ponders over more than 1 liliana?

[Razorwynd]

Grats Greg, nice to see someone I know get the trophy if it couldn't be myself (It's Russ). Also, sorry for calling you a turd.

A few questions though.
1. How many times did you flip over Tombstalker to Bob outside of that one time we played?

2. You say you catered towards the blade matchups, how is the matchup against the ones that are more dependent on Lingering Souls and not TNN?

3. Just curious about some card choices - like disfigures over filling out the Abrupt decays MD, maxing out on ponders over more than 1 liliana?

2. As has been discussed before, disfigure is a great way for you to lower you curve and provide you with more action in the early turns of the game. and it kills or helps kill almost all relevant threats. The default list is very heavy at the 2cc slot

3. Delver. Ponder helps flip delver, both blind and set up. (Although I am curious about only a single Liliaina main, my guess is for curve purposes)

[phazonmutant]

Congrats Phazonmutant! So I was just wondering if, between Confidant, TNN, and Stalker,whether one card outperformed the other two or whether one seemed best in most matchups? After testing a Confidant list for a little while now I still can't decide If I like Confidant better than Tombstalker. Confidant has been pretty good but not good enough for me to say it is objectively better than Tombstalker. I still think whichever one you play is meta and playstyle dependent still. I haven't tested TNN mostly because I'd rather avoid playing the card if I can since I personally dislike it.

Eh, they all suck, but sometimes they're exactly what you need. That being said, Bob really sucks against all the non-combo, non-Miracles decks though. It's ok at best against Blade. True Name makes me sad, but he does pitch to Force of Will. I think I've pitched him more times than I've cast him.


Grats Greg, nice to see someone I know get the trophy if it couldn't be myself (It's Russ). Also, sorry for calling you a turd.

Thanks, turd. :wink:


1. How many times did you flip over Tombstalker to Bob outside of that one time we played?

None. But come on, read the flavor text on Confidant. Greatness at any cost.


2. You say you catered towards the blade matchups, how is the matchup against the ones that are more dependent on Lingering Souls and not TNN?

Golgari Charm


3. Just curious about some card choices - like disfigures over filling out the Abrupt decays MD, maxing out on ponders over more than 1 liliana?

Disfigure is awesome, Liliana is awesome. Ponder is awesome at finding sweet 1-ofs.

[Esper3k]

Eh, they all suck, but sometimes they're exactly what you need. That being said, Bob really sucks against all the non-combo, non-Miracles decks though. It's ok at best against Blade. True Name makes me sad, but he does pitch to Force of Will. I think I've pitched him more times than I've cast him.

Welcome to TNN-ville. Due to you playing it as a 1-of, you now got us classified as a "TNN deck"! :laugh:

It -did- win you that Game 3 in the finals! (Let's ignore the fact that you had a huge number of live cards to draw plus your opponent had to keep ripping live topdecks while at 1 life)

[exallium]

Eh, they all suck, but sometimes they're exactly what you need. That being said, Bob really sucks against all the non-combo, non-Miracles decks though. It's ok at best against Blade. True Name makes me sad, but he does pitch to Force of Will. I think I've pitched him more times than I've cast him.



Thanks, turd. :wink:



None. But come on, read the flavor text on Confidant. Greatness at any cost.



Golgari Charm



Disfigure is awesome, Liliana is awesome. Ponder is awesome at finding sweet 1-ofs.

Did I see you board out a Bayou vs Aluren in round 7 (I think)? Was wondering what the line of thought is when you do this.

[Esper3k]

Did I see you board out a Bayou vs Aluren in round 7 (I think)? Was wondering what the line of thought is when you do this.

Generally, if you're running the 20 lands manabase, you can board out a land (usually a Bayou) against the non-Wasteland decks since your mana isn't going to be molested.

[exallium]

Generally, if you're running the 20 lands manabase, you can board out a land (usually a Bayou) against the non-Wasteland decks since your mana isn't going to be molested.

Sweet. Definitely something I think is very under-utilized. (Obviously even by me =P)

[nudon]

So today I went 10-0-2 in matches, 20-3 in games at SCG Seattle. This deck is ok. Tournament report forthcoming (although I need to figure out how SCG decides their guest-writer thingy).

Sick! Congrats Greg on the finish! Next up: perfecting rogue hermit. :P

[Benrobnu]

I've been very happy with moving one Lilly to the board for a Disfigure or Spell Pierce depending on what I feel like the meta is going to be.

I'm on 2 TS and was wondering how often people are completely boarding them out against white decks?

[Dragonslayer_90]

I've been very happy with moving one Lilly to the board for a Disfigure or Spell Pierce depending on what I feel like the meta is going to be.

I'm on 2 TS and was wondering how often people are completely boarding them out against white decks?

Depends on the deck really. Against a deck that has swords, Jace, and Rest in Peace I board all of them out. Against a deck with swords and Rest in Peace postboard I usually side one out.

[phazonmutant]

Sick! Congrats Greg on the finish! Next up: perfecting rogue hermit. :P

Haha, or maybe just finishing the primer :tongue: Sorry I haven't had a chance to finish it! Thanks.


I just submitted my article to Cedric! You guys should be able to read it by midnight EST tonight.

[lordofthepit]

Haha, or maybe just finishing the primer :tongue: Sorry I haven't had a chance to finish it! Thanks.


I just submitted my article to Cedric! You guys should be able to read it by midnight EST tonight.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6o5NweFWjAw

[Vyshanti]

Thorhammer, seeing you get the loss due to sleeves was heartbreaking :(

[Vyshanti]

I just submitted my article to Cedric! You guys should be able to read it by midnight EST tonight.

Loved your deck! I might roll into Card Kingdom again on more Mondays...

[Nocley]

Nice article, you going to the Invitational next week? Or waiting until December? Also, any other changes you'd make to that list? Definitely considering going back to this as I'm expecting tons of Delver and Jund in LA this weekend. With that said, I'm taking out Bob for the 4th Goyf as you said, as well as dismember over the disfigure in the board.

[phazonmutant]

Nice article, you going to the Invitational next week? Or waiting until December? Also, any other changes you'd make to that list? Definitely considering going back to this as I'm expecting tons of Delver and Jund in LA this weekend. With that said, I'm taking out Bob for the 4th Goyf as you said, as well as dismember over the disfigure in the board.

Thanks! Nope, I am going to LA though. I've been told LA is pretty combo and Delver heavy, so I'm torn between Bob and Goyf.

[feline]

Thanks! Nope, I am going to LA though. I've been told LA is pretty combo and Delver heavy, so I'm torn between Bob and Goyf.

Every time I SCGLA/Vegas I play against RUG a minimum of 2 times, it's, annoying! lol

[Cire_dk]

Great article Greg. I loved the angle from which it was written so enjoyed reading it.

[Dragonslayer_90]

Awesome article Phazonmutant. I also appreciated the analytical angle it was written from. I've always felt that Team America is highly adaptable in the many roles it can play. Some times I feel like I'm playing a Jund style deck rather than a Delver tempo deck. I think that might have been part of what drew me to the deck because I have background in playing Jund in both modern and legacy. Anyways, I don't think I realized how flexible Team America is at a conscious level so I think your article's going to help me re-evaluate how I play the deck. Haven't been doing so well with it recently.

[Arsenal]

Played Team America extensively during the short lived Mental Misstep era, felt unbeatable then. Sleeved it up yesterday and jammed a few matches against RUG Delver, Jund and Miracles. The Delver mirror is pretty absurd as I feel like it literally boiled down to "Wasteland, go. Wasteland, go. GG?" in the games we played pre and post board. Super swingy games with very little incremental advantage plays. Have others found the Delver mirror to be similar?

[Razorwynd]

Played Team America extensively during the short lived Mental Misstep era, felt unbeatable then. Sleeved it up yesterday and jammed a few matches against RUG Delver, Jund and Miracles. The Delver mirror is pretty absurd as I feel like it literally boiled down to "Wasteland, go. Wasteland, go. GG?" in the games we played pre and post board. Super swingy games with very little incremental advantage plays. Have others found the Delver mirror to be similar?

I have the same sort of feelings as well. And unfortunately, RUG frequently plays submerge, which just provides them with so much tempo advantage. There are certainly lots of subtle (but important) nuances and intricacies, some of which I am not completely aware of, that can provide additional % points in the matchup.

[Purgatory]

BUG can quite realistically blank their Submerges, since it can play Decay and Goyf through DRS.

[Dragonslayer_90]

Played Team America extensively during the short lived Mental Misstep era, felt unbeatable then. Sleeved it up yesterday and jammed a few matches against RUG Delver, Jund and Miracles. The Delver mirror is pretty absurd as I feel like it literally boiled down to "Wasteland, go. Wasteland, go. GG?" in the games we played pre and post board. Super swingy games with very little incremental advantage plays. Have others found the Delver mirror to be similar?

Yeah. The Delver mirror is swingy, but there are still interesting and/or hard decisions to be made at certain points depending on the game state. Also, contrary to many people's belief you CAN win if you lose the die roll in a Delver mirror. I know I have many times before by just playing tightly. Often it just means you have to play the control role when on the draw, which BUG Delver is very good at with discard, Abrupt Decay, and Liliana.

[Esper3k]

Played Team America extensively during the short lived Mental Misstep era, felt unbeatable then. Sleeved it up yesterday and jammed a few matches against RUG Delver, Jund and Miracles. The Delver mirror is pretty absurd as I feel like it literally boiled down to "Wasteland, go. Wasteland, go. GG?" in the games we played pre and post board. Super swingy games with very little incremental advantage plays. Have others found the Delver mirror to be similar?

Wasteland is huge and sadly for us, since our mana curve tends to be the highest, Wasteland has the highest impact against us. However, we do also have DRS to somewhat mitigate that, but RUG and especially UWR have loads of removal for him.

That being said, I have always felt much more comfortable vs UWR than RUG. The Stifles + Wasteland from RUG really taxes our manabase and with 5+ burn spells being popular, we can't count on DRS sticking around. Plus, Mongoose is such an asshole!

In the UWR matchup, they always felt so... slow. SFM, while powerful, just can't effectively handle angry attacking Tarmogoyf. RIP from the board is strong, but we have so many answers to it, Tarmogoyf can easily grow back in a turn or two after we deal with it.

IE, yes, I found the games vs Delver decks to either be 1) Blowout by one side due to Wasteland 2) Grindy affairs where both sides are killing everything that gets played.

[exallium]

Wasteland is huge and sadly for us, since our mana curve tends to be the highest, Wasteland has the highest impact against us. However, we do also have DRS to somewhat mitigate that, but RUG and especially UWR have loads of removal for him.

That being said, I have always felt much more comfortable vs UWR than RUG. The Stifles + Wasteland from RUG really taxes our manabase and with 5+ burn spells being popular, we can't count on DRS sticking around. Plus, Mongoose is such an asshole!

In the UWR matchup, they always felt so... slow. SFM, while powerful, just can't effectively handle angry attacking Tarmogoyf. RIP from the board is strong, but we have so many answers to it, Tarmogoyf can easily grow back in a turn or two after we deal with it.

IE, yes, I found the games vs Delver decks to either be 1) Blowout by one side due to Wasteland 2) Grindy affairs where both sides are killing everything that gets played.

It does not help that we also generally run zero basics, and 7 fetch-able lands. If you are careful though, you can play around Stifle and wasteland. Proper sequencing can really help catch your opponent off-guard, and Fetch+Daze can help blank wastelands and/or stifles if you plan things appropriately.

[Benrobnu]

It does not help that we also generally run zero basics, and 7 fetch-able lands. If you are careful though, you can play around Stifle and wasteland. Proper sequencing can really help catch your opponent off-guard, and Fetch+Daze can help blank wastelands and/or stifles if you plan things appropriately.

I find against rug that you have a slightly favorable match-up due to abrupt decay removing 2/3 of their threats, but I always try to do a few things.

Sequence to avoid Daze and Stifle blowouts
Try to fetch Usea only and ride DRS until necessary if you know they have submerge
Build a longterm plan to resolve TS or a Goyf that sticks


The wasteland situation a few are describing is not uncommon though. There's more than once in the mirror and in the rug matchup I've seen 0 lands in play on turn 4 or 5

[Arsenal]

It'll just take some time to re-adjust to the threat of Wasteland. I've been on UW Stoneblade for a long time, so running 5-6 basics means I get to play Magic: The Gathering whereas running 20 non-basics, even with DRS to mitigate damage, means I just lose to my opponent's 2x Wasteland keeps.

[Esper3k]

Speaking of matchups where our non basics bite us in the ass, anyone have any tips for the Painter matchup, especially sideboarding?

We have quite a few popping up in my local meta but haven't really played against it much with this deck.

[KobeBryan]

Speaking of matchups where our non basics bite us in the ass, anyone have any tips for the Painter matchup, especially sideboarding?

We have quite a few popping up in my local meta but haven't really played against it much with this deck.

Don't let bloodmoon resolve.

[Benrobnu]

Don't let bloodmoon resolve.

Cut daze, bring in charms and grip and a disfigure. I leave in force for blood moon.

[Asthereal]

Cut daze, bring in charms and grip and a disfigure. I leave in force for blood moon.
Cutting the Dazes gets you into trouble with the blue count for Force.
Do you just pray you have the additional blue card, or do you sometimes also side in two Pierces or so?

[Dragonslayer_90]

Speaking of matchups where our non basics bite us in the ass, anyone have any tips for the Painter matchup, especially sideboarding?

We have quite a few popping up in my local meta but haven't really played against it much with this deck.

You certainly don't want to side out Daze on the play unless you have higher impact blue cards to bring in. I always have at least 20 blue cards including force when having it in my deck, a personal preference of mine. I usually have more blue cards postboard against combo decks. I think that absolute minimum is 18. On the draw against painter I'll usually side out three dazes for spell pierce since daze is much worse on the draw.

As for the Painter MU in general, I find it pretty manageable as long as you don't let an early blood moon resolve. Then again I probably have more experience with that match up than most since one of my good magic friends has been playing it as his primary legacy deck recently. Anyways, much of the power of that deck is predicated on making their opponent unable to play Magic with blood moon. Take that away and you aren't going to have too hard a time. Discard and Liliana is REALLY good against them. It is pretty hard to lose if you curve discard into Lili. The only time they might be able to recover from facing some early discard is if they have top early and you're not clocking them. Abrupt Decay is another all star as well because not only does it kill a resolved blood moon, it also disrupts their combo. In general my way of playing the matchup I like having the most flexible disruption available to the deck which is counters, discard, and Abrupt Decay. For that reason I actually don't side in and out too many cards. I usually side in another Liliana and a V Clique. Maybe a Krosan Grip depending on what I can side out. As for what I side out I usually go down to 12 threats, only keeping Delver, Goyf and Deathrite (I shave one Goyf since V. Clique is a threat). I might side out a land too depending on what I want to side in. Just play it like you would against any other combo deck. Stick a threat or two (Preferably Delver or Goyf) to clock them and disrupt the hell out of them as you go along to make sure they neither stick a blood moon or painter grindstone combo.

EDIT: This is all assuming you're talking about Mono red imperial painter, the most played painter variant. Some of the above may not apply for UR Variants, the much less played one.

[Esper3k]

Don't let bloodmoon resolve.

Any more sage advice? Maybe "don't get milled out"?


You certainly don't want to side out Daze on the play unless you have higher impact blue cards to bring in. I always have at least 20 blue cards including force when having it in my deck, a personal preference of mine. I usually have more blue cards postboard against combo decks. I think that absolute minimum is 18. On the draw against painter I'll usually side out three dazes for spell pierce since daze is much worse on the draw.

As for the Painter MU in general, I find it pretty manageable as long as you don't let an early blood moon resolve. Then again I probably have more experience with that match up than most since one of my good magic friends has been playing it as his primary legacy deck recently. Anyways, much of the power of that deck is predicated on making their opponent unable to play Magic with blood moon. Take that away and you aren't going to have too hard a time. Discard and Liliana is REALLY good against them. It is pretty hard to lose if you curve discard into Lili. The only time they might be able to recover from facing some early discard is if they have top early and you're not clocking them. Abrupt Decay is another all star as well because not only does it kill a resolved blood moon, it also disrupts their combo. In general my way of playing the matchup I like having the most flexible disruption available to the deck which is counters, discard, and Abrupt Decay. For that reason I actually don't side in and out too many cards. I usually side in another Liliana and a V Clique. Maybe a Krosan Grip depending on what I can side out. As for what I side out I usually go down to 12 threats, only keeping Delver, Goyf and Deathrite (I shave one Goyf since V. Clique is a threat). I might side out a land too depending on what I want to side in. Just play it like you would against any other combo deck. Stick a threat or two (Preferably Delver or Goyf) to clock them and disrupt the hell out of them as you go along to make sure they neither stick a blood moon or painter grindstone combo.

EDIT: This is all assuming you're talking about Mono red imperial painter, the most played painter variant. Some of the above may not apply for UR Variants, the much less played one.

Interesting that you keep in your hand disruption against them. I always felt that they empty their hand so quickly that hand disruption loses a lot of its value, especially since they often run Top.

My problem with treating it like another combo deck is that it's one of those odd cases where we want to keep Abrupt Decay in (and even bring in stuff like Krosan Grip if you have it), which is something we'd normally board out. I guess the Dazes in on the play / out on the draw plan is something to try - I haven't been a real fan of Daze in general in this matchup since they generate mana so quickly.

[Benrobnu]

Cutting the Dazes gets you into trouble with the blue count for Force.
Do you just pray you have the additional blue card, or do you sometimes also side in two Pierces or so?

I go back and forth on bringing in pierces against Painter, but I'll admit I've only played the match-up a few times. I share a lot of sentiments with with Esper3k in that discard and daze often just seem dead against them.

[nodahero]

I think the value of Discard is stripping out Bloodmoon or Top (especially when you are on the play). On the draw it is less amazing... and yes discard becomes terrible against them the longer the game goes but your cards get better the longer the game lasts so it feels like an overall win.

[Dragonslayer_90]

Any more sage advice? Maybe "don't get milled out"?



Interesting that you keep in your hand disruption against them. I always felt that they empty their hand so quickly that hand disruption loses a lot of its value, especially since they often run Top.

My problem with treating it like another combo deck is that it's one of those odd cases where we want to keep Abrupt Decay in (and even bring in stuff like Krosan Grip if you have it), which is something we'd normally board out. I guess the Dazes in on the play / out on the draw plan is something to try - I haven't been a real fan of Daze in general in this matchup since they generate mana so quickly.

Discard gives the deck another angle of attack where, unlike RUG and UWR, we don't need to wait for them to attempt to resolve Blood Moon or a combo piece. We just make them discard it. Also, sometimes painter just shits on itself. The more they mulligan the more and more powerful Hymn to Tourach becomes. "Oh you mulliganed to 5? Hymn to Tourach, mulligan to 3 instead." There might be times where your discard gets blanked because they puked the majority of their hand by turn 2, but this is not going to happen all the time. I don't know what else to tell you, but playing with discard has worked for me so far so I'm going to continue down that route. I like the flexbility of discard as opposed to something more narrow like golgari charm even if the former becomes more dead as the game goes long.

In this match up Abrupt Decay is powerful disruption spell that basically says "Destroy target blood moon or target painter grindstone combo piece." It probably feels weird because legacy combo is typically stack-based, an area where Abrupt Decay cannot interact, which is why we typically board it out against combo. The purpose of Daze in this matchup is mainly to keep the blue count at a healthy amount. If you have better blue spells to bring in by all means board it out. However, on the play, Daze can lead to some blow outs because often they do jam an early blood moon without protection into a potential daze. The more turns they give you to play magic the more you can develop your board well enough for blood moon not to matter.

[KobeBryan]

Any more sage advice? Maybe "don't get milled out"?



Interesting that you keep in your hand disruption against them. I always felt that they empty their hand so quickly that hand disruption loses a lot of its value, especially since they often run Top.

My problem with treating it like another combo deck is that it's one of those odd cases where we want to keep Abrupt Decay in (and even bring in stuff like Krosan Grip if you have it), which is something we'd normally board out. I guess the Dazes in on the play / out on the draw plan is something to try - I haven't been a real fan of Daze in general in this matchup since they generate mana so quickly.

That is probably the best advice anyone can give.

You save whatever you have just to fight this bloodmoon

[exallium]

That is probably the best advice anyone can give.

You save whatever you have just to fight this bloodmoon

Painter's the reason I have a null rod in my board. that and the look on player's faces when they SFM up a Jitte and I slam it down. Last night vs Death and Taxes I took out 2 Aether Vials and a Jitte all at the same time.

[Thorhammer]

Thorhammer, seeing you get the loss due to sleeves was heartbreaking :(

Last time I use Ultra Pros. The commentators got it wrong actually. I never had the checklist cards in at all. I don't know what the judges were talking about cuz I sure couldn't tell. I tried to stay focused and shrug it off to keep going but that type of thing can be pretty devastating mentally.

[Manipulato]

Hi guys,
today I played our local turney with 16 people and went 5:0 undefeated with the Team.
I played the standard list exept for 1 Pierce instead of the 4th FoW MD.

I expected Miracles, Bladedecks, Elves and some BGx decks like NicFit.

Sideboard was:
3 Golgari Charm
3 Disfigure
2 Spell Pierce
2 Null Rod
2 Grafdiggers Cage
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Force of Will

Null Rod was against Top, Explosive, Jitte, Swords & Batterskull (2 Storm player were there too and its great against LED & Petal).

My Games were as follow:

Round 1: Raffinity (Won 2:0 and Null Rod was BONKERS here)

Round 2: BR Reanimator (Won 2:1 the one loss was to 1st turn Unmask with a Griselbrand & in game 3 he scooped to my 1st turn cage because he has no outs for it)

Round 3: RUG Delver (Here I won 2:1 after a Wasteland war, really close and intensive games)

Round 4: Esper Deathblade (Here I won 2:0 quite easily)

Round 5: UWr Miracles (Here I won 2:0 after Hymning away a Sword + Snapy & put enough meat on the table & in the second game were null rod & some counter for his removal)

It was a good turney but I want to fit in 2 Maelstrom Pulse to the board , maybe cutting 1 Disfigure & 1 Clique/Null Rod/Charm.

I think Tombstalker is MD better than TNN because he's much faster and can block flyers like Delver/Cliques. After boarding I replace him with the 2 Cliques. Disfigure was great too because its cheap &handles a lot of creatures. Null Rod was great too, stoping Top, Explosives & equipment is great plus it helps against Storm. Cliques are also great, theyre just super flexible.

Top 4 were:
1. Team America
2. ANT
3. Miracles
4. NicFit

Greetings

[exallium]

Hi guys,
today I played our local turney with 16 people and went 5:0 undefeated with the Team.
I played the standard list exept for 1 Pierce instead of the 4th FoW MD.

I expected Miracles, Bladedecks, Elves and some BGx decks like NicFit.

Sideboard was:
3 Golgari Charm
3 Disfigure
2 Spell Pierce
2 Null Rod
2 Grafdiggers Cage
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Force of Will

Null Rod was against Top, Explosive, Jitte, Swords & Batterskull (2 Storm player were there too and its great against LED & Petal).

My Games were as follow:

Round 1: Raffinity (Won 2:0 and Null Rod was BONKERS here)

Round 2: BR Reanimator (Won 2:1 the one loss was to 1st turn Unmask with a Griselbrand & in game 3 he scooped to my 1st turn cage because he has no outs for it)

Round 3: RUG Delver (Here I won 2:1 after a Wasteland war, really close and intensive games)

Round 4: Esper Deathblade (Here I won 2:0 quite easily)

Round 5: UWr Miracles (Here I won 2:0 after Hymning away a Sword + Snapy & put enough meat on the table & in the second game were null rod & some counter for his removal)

It was a good turney but I want to fit in 2 Maelstrom Pulse to the board , maybe cutting 1 Disfigure & 1 Clique/Null Rod/Charm.

I think Tombstalker is MD better than TNN because he's much faster and can block flyers like Delver/Cliques. After boarding I replace him with the 2 Cliques. Disfigure was great too because its cheap &handles a lot of creatures. Null Rod was great too, stoping Top, Explosives & equipment is great plus it helps against Storm. Cliques are also great, theyre just super flexible.

Top 4 were:
1. Team America
2. ANT
3. Miracles
4. NicFit

Greetings

Congrats! I'm definitely thinking 2 cages is the right number for this deck. The second null rod (compared to my SB only having one right now) also seems insane. It's a huge hoser in a meta filled with things like Stoneblade, D&T, Painter, etc.

I would agree that Pulse is very playable. It's a very important card in the Miracles Matchup, as I feel like JTMS is a huge problem for us.

[Manipulato]

Congrats! I'm definitely thinking 2 cages is the right number for this deck. The second null rod (compared to my SB only having one right now) also seems insane. It's a huge hoser in a meta filled with things like Stoneblade, D&T, Painter, etc.

I would agree that Pulse is very playable. It's a very important card in the Miracles Matchup, as I feel like JTMS is a huge problem for us.

Thx, I was expecting 2 DnT and Rod is near to a blow out against them. Null Rod was great but I want to beat SFM/Midrange decks with Null Rod + Pulse and I think they work great together because one handles what the other does not. Null Rod is insane right now with all the Vials, Tops, Jittes, Swords and so on. Pulse is just sweet too, not only because of Jace, it hits Angel tokens too, and against SFM decks Batterskull is enemy number one plus its just a hardremoval for each oposing creature & Decay number 5+6. Just super flexible.
After boarding SFM decks have a hard time dealing with 2 Cliques 2 Null Rod AND 2 Pulse.

Playing less than 2 cages seems wrong to me because it is our "RIP" and shuts down some decks like Reanimator, TinFins, Dredge & Elves, sure Surgical handles P.Fire & Loam engine but I dont expect Lands in my meta & P. Fire is not the "You lose" card against us because we have Goyf & Stalker + 4 Wasteland 4 Shaman.

[Esper3k]

T8'd a Legacy tournament for a Mox Ruby this weekend (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27498-POWER-9-tournaments-each-month-February-through-October!-Plus-much-more!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) after finishing 9th (only X-1-1 not to T8) at the last one.

Here's my list:

4x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
1x Tropical Island
4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Polluted Delta
1x Misty Rainforest

4x Delver of Secrets
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Tarmogoyf
2x True-Name Nemesis

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Daze
3x Force of Will
3x Hymn to Tourach
2x Thoughtseize
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Disfigure

1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Sylvan Library

Sideboard:
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Dimir Charm (should probably be Envelop)
1x Dismember (I like the flexibility more than Disfigure)
1x Flusterstorm
1x Force of Will
2x Golgari Charm
1x Grafdigger's Cage (this could be another Surgical if you want)
1x Krosan Grip
1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Maelstrom Pulse (I haven't been very happy with this. Considering a Null Rod or Jitte or TNN here)
2x Spell Pierce
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Vendilion Clique

As you can see, the list I played is very similar to Phazonmutant's list. I prefer the 4th Daze in the main over Spell Pierce just because it helps to maximize our early disruption. I'm super greedy, so I'm playing 19 lands so I can fit the maindeck Sylvan Library in. The meta at these tournaments is fairly heavy in combo + Miracles, so I'm expecting to board out a land in most matchups anyways. The maindeck TNNs are again because of all the Miracles.

50ish players, 6 rounds of Swiss.

Round 1 - vs GBwr Nic Fit

One of our local players at the store I normally frequent, so we know what we're each on.

Game 1: I win the die roll and aggro him out with dudes and disruption. TNN seals the deal for me.
Game 2: He gets the scary Nic Fit opener of Cabal Therapy, Veteran Explorer / Flashback Therapy, start dropping big dudes. I stall the board with Goyf and TNN, but a Deed comes down and I'm wrecked.
Game 3: I have Thoughtseize and DRS, so I lead off with DRS because he's been usually leading off with Cabal Therapy to protect his Explorers from Daze (playing them T2). He changes game plans and jams down the Explorer T1 - awkward. My Thoughtseize shows Therapy, Deed, and a bunch of lands, so at least he doesn't have much business. I play Sylvan Library and the card advantage / selection allows me to keep him tempo'd out long enough to finish the job.

1-0 (2-1)

Round 2 - vs Team America

Game 1: I lose the die roll and after a few turns, we both find out we're playing the mirror. His list seems to be more of the stock list and while I get ahead on cards, he draws two TNN in a row to close the game out.
Game 2: I aggro him out with Tarmogoyfs, but he's got all the Wastelands. He has no cards in hand to my 4 (he's got 4 lands, to my 2 and Tarmogoyf) and draws Liliana. Ugh. Lili kills my Goyf and Wasteland keeps me off lands while Liliana eats my hand / dudes.

1-1 (2-3)

Round 3 - vs Mono B Goryo's Vengeance / Shallow Grave Reanimator

Game 1: I win the die roll and keep Deathrite Shaman, Thoughtseize, Sylvan Library, Disfigure, lands. I drop the DRS and he goes basic Swamp, Dark Ritual, Liliana of the Veil, kill your DRS. I think "Ok, we're against Pox", so I windmill slam down Sylvan Library. On his turn, he +1's Liliana and I throw away my Disfigure while he discards... Emrakul?!?! Ah crap. Trigger on the stack, Goryo's Vengeance on Emrakul, Annihilator 6 and 15 damage to my face. I actually draw a few more lands and try to make a game of it, but he Entombs, then Animate Dead's a Griselbrand and that's it.
Game 2: Hand disruption, countermagic, and Deathrite Shaman + Delver go the distance.
Game 3: He Thoughtseizes me, sees my Grafdigger's Cage and snap discards it, so I have to play fair. I cantrip into Deathrite Shaman and protect him from 2 Lilianas, which makes it almost impossible for him to win.

2-1 (4-4)

Round 4 - vs Junk

Another local player! (Many of us are running into each other since we were almost 20% of the field)

Game 1: I win the die roll and keep DRSx2, fetch land, 2x Wasteland, Ponder, and Daze. He Plows my first DRS, but i just play Waste his land and get out my second one. The second Wasteland + Daze keeps him off balance long enough for me to overrun him with threats.
Game 2: He goes first and gets a bunch of DRS out while I'm always a turn behind him.
Game 3: I Thoughtseize his DRS, seeing a hand with double Qasali Pridemage. Normally I'd be pretty happy, but I have Sylvan Library. Oh well, T2 Sylvan, Disfigure his T2 Pridemage, draw cards off of Sylvan, Hymn to Tourach and I'm just too far ahead on card advantage even when he kills my Sylvan with his second Pridemage.

3-1 (6-5)

Round 5 - vs Sneaky Show

Yet another local player!

Game 1: He wins the die roll and I mull to 4 (knowing what I'm facing) and have to keep a hand of Abrupt Decay, Disfigure, Wasteland, and fetch land. He goes T1: Island, T2: Gitaxian Probes me, laughs, drops Ancient Tomb, Show & Tell -> Griselbrand. I scoop.
Game 2: I open a pretty nuts hand with Force, Force, Brainstorm, Daze, lands. I Brainstorm into Daze, Liliana, land. On T2, he goes for it off of Island, Mountain, Lotus Petal and I Daze his Show & Tell. T3, he drops a Lotus Petal, goes for it again (missing his land drop), and I Daze yet again. Ouch. I draw Hymn right on time to strip the rest of his hand away and Liliana comes down with him having no cards in hand...
Game 3: I mull to 5 and think it's game over. My hand is Brainstorm, Brainstorm, three lands. He opens with Leyline of Sanctity and I think to myself that I might have a chance. Brainstorm finds Daze, DRS, and Tarmogoyf and we're off to the races. He misses his third land drop and I start beating down. He eventually gets to his third land and goes for the Show & Tell and he has Force for my Daze. I have 2 mana left and Brainstorm looking for any of my counter spells... and hit Spell Pierce & Surgical Extraction! Spell Pierce resolves and on his draw step, I Surgical away Show & Tell... including the one he just drew!

4-1 (8-6)

Round 6 - vs Miracles

A friend of mine so of course we have to play each other in our win-and-in round.

Game 1: We battle back and forth with him finding removal for my guys, but I also get down TNN and Sylvan Library so I'm able to keep up with his card advantage. We also both play like idiots and manage to each pick up 2 Warnings apiece in about 2 minutes. Yeesh. Sylvan Library keeps the flow of dudes going and he can't keep up.
Game 2: I T1 Thoughtseize, take his Spell Snare, T2 Sylvan Library, pay 8 life the next turn and he can't keep up with my flood of guys.

5-1 (10-6)

Top 8 - vs Death & Taxes

Yet another buddy of mine!

Game 1: I'm higher seed, so I choose to play. I aggro out on him with Delver, Tarmogoyf, and TNN. Yeah TNN is still really good vs those fair decks.
Game 2: We get in a stalemate where he has Meekstone out and Batterskull (dead Germ) + SoFI, but then gets Thalia out and she Voltron's up all over my face.
Game 3: He misses his T3 land drop and I Wasteland his Wasteland (he has a Plains for his other land). He did manage to cast 2 SFM so I know he has Batterskull + Jitte in hand. The game gets to a point where he has 6 cards in hand, a Mom, 1 plains, vs my 4 lands, flipped Delver, and I have a hand of Golgari Charm (he knows of it because of the Delver), Liliana, and Krosan Grip. I play Liliana and know that as soon as I play her, I made a mistake. Stuck, I -2 her and swing in, hoping he doesn't hit a land drop. He rips a Plains and slams down a Serra Avenger. I hold Delver back to block and of course he has StP and kills Liliana. He drops 2 more Serra Avengers and we actually end up having a very close game, but I think it would've gone much differently if I had waited to Golgari Charm the Mom away at the end of his turn, then dropped Liliana to kill his Avenger. Shows that I still need more practice with the deck!

5-2 (11-8)

[Manipulato]

T8'd a Legacy tournament for a Mox Ruby this weekend (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27498-POWER-9-tournaments-each-month-February-through-October!-Plus-much-more!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) after finishing 9th (only X-1-1 not to T8) at the last one.

Here's my list:

4x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
1x Tropical Island
4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Polluted Delta
1x Misty Rainforest

4x Delver of Secrets
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Tarmogoyf
2x True-Name Nemesis

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Daze
3x Force of Will
3x Hymn to Tourach
2x Thoughtseize
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Disfigure

1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Sylvan Library

Sideboard:
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Dimir Charm (should probably be Envelop)
1x Dismember (I like the flexibility more than Disfigure)
1x Flusterstorm
1x Force of Will
2x Golgari Charm
1x Grafdigger's Cage (this could be another Surgical if you want)
1x Krosan Grip
1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Maelstrom Pulse (I haven't been very happy with this. Considering a Null Rod or Jitte or TNN here)
2x Spell Pierce
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Vendilion Clique

As you can see, the list I played is very similar to Phazonmutant's list. I prefer the 4th Daze in the main over Spell Pierce just because it helps to maximize our early disruption. I'm super greedy, so I'm playing 19 lands so I can fit the maindeck Sylvan Library in. The meta at these tournaments is fairly heavy in combo + Miracles, so I'm expecting to board out a land in most matchups anyways. The maindeck TNNs are again because of all the Miracles.

50ish players, 6 rounds of Swiss.

Round 1 - vs GBwr Nic Fit

One of our local players at the store I normally frequent, so we know what we're each on.

Game 1: I win the die roll and aggro him out with dudes and disruption. TNN seals the deal for me.
Game 2: He gets the scary Nic Fit opener of Cabal Therapy, Veteran Explorer / Flashback Therapy, start dropping big dudes. I stall the board with Goyf and TNN, but a Deed comes down and I'm wrecked.
Game 3: I have Thoughtseize and DRS, so I lead off with DRS because he's been usually leading off with Cabal Therapy to protect his Explorers from Daze (playing them T2). He changes game plans and jams down the Explorer T1 - awkward. My Thoughtseize shows Therapy, Deed, and a bunch of lands, so at least he doesn't have much business. I play Sylvan Library and the card advantage / selection allows me to keep him tempo'd out long enough to finish the job.

1-0 (2-1)

Round 2 - vs Team America

Game 1: I lose the die roll and after a few turns, we both find out we're playing the mirror. His list seems to be more of the stock list and while I get ahead on cards, he draws two TNN in a row to close the game out.
Game 2: I aggro him out with Tarmogoyfs, but he's got all the Wastelands. He has no cards in hand to my 4 (he's got 4 lands, to my 2 and Tarmogoyf) and draws Liliana. Ugh. Lili kills my Goyf and Wasteland keeps me off lands while Liliana eats my hand / dudes.

1-1 (2-3)

Round 3 - vs Mono B Goryo's Vengeance / Shallow Grave Reanimator

Game 1: I win the die roll and keep Deathrite Shaman, Thoughtseize, Sylvan Library, Disfigure, lands. I drop the DRS and he goes basic Swamp, Dark Ritual, Liliana of the Veil, kill your DRS. I think "Ok, we're against Pox", so I windmill slam down Sylvan Library. On his turn, he +1's Liliana and I throw away my Disfigure while he discards... Emrakul?!?! Ah crap. Trigger on the stack, Goryo's Vengeance on Emrakul, Annihilator 6 and 15 damage to my face. I actually draw a few more lands and try to make a game of it, but he Entombs, then Animate Dead's a Griselbrand and that's it.
Game 2: Hand disruption, countermagic, and Deathrite Shaman + Delver go the distance.
Game 3: He Thoughtseizes me, sees my Grafdigger's Cage and snap discards it, so I have to play fair. I cantrip into Deathrite Shaman and protect him from 2 Lilianas, which makes it almost impossible for him to win.

2-1 (4-4)

Round 4 - vs Junk

Another local player! (Many of us are running into each other since we were almost 20% of the field)

Game 1: I win the die roll and keep DRSx2, fetch land, 2x Wasteland, Ponder, and Daze. He Plows my first DRS, but i just play Waste his land and get out my second one. The second Wasteland + Daze keeps him off balance long enough for me to overrun him with threats.
Game 2: He goes first and gets a bunch of DRS out while I'm always a turn behind him.
Game 3: I Thoughtseize his DRS, seeing a hand with double Qasali Pridemage. Normally I'd be pretty happy, but I have Sylvan Library. Oh well, T2 Sylvan, Disfigure his T2 Pridemage, draw cards off of Sylvan, Hymn to Tourach and I'm just too far ahead on card advantage even when he kills my Sylvan with his second Pridemage.

3-1 (6-5)

Round 5 - vs Sneaky Show

Yet another local player!

Game 1: He wins the die roll and I mull to 4 (knowing what I'm facing) and have to keep a hand of Abrupt Decay, Disfigure, Wasteland, and fetch land. He goes T1: Island, T2: Gitaxian Probes me, laughs, drops Ancient Tomb, Show & Tell -> Griselbrand. I scoop.
Game 2: I open a pretty nuts hand with Force, Force, Brainstorm, Daze, lands. I Brainstorm into Daze, Liliana, land. On T2, he goes for it off of Island, Mountain, Lotus Petal and I Daze his Show & Tell. T3, he drops a Lotus Petal, goes for it again (missing his land drop), and I Daze yet again. Ouch. I draw Hymn right on time to strip the rest of his hand away and Liliana comes down with him having no cards in hand...
Game 3: I mull to 5 and think it's game over. My hand is Brainstorm, Brainstorm, three lands. He opens with Leyline of Sanctity and I think to myself that I might have a chance. Brainstorm finds Daze, DRS, and Tarmogoyf and we're off to the races. He misses his third land drop and I start beating down. He eventually gets to his third land and goes for the Show & Tell and he has Force for my Daze. I have 2 mana left and Brainstorm looking for any of my counter spells... and hit Spell Pierce & Surgical Extraction! Spell Pierce resolves and on his draw step, I Surgical away Show & Tell... including the one he just drew!

4-1 (8-6)

Round 6 - vs Miracles

A friend of mine so of course we have to play each other in our win-and-in round.

Game 1: We battle back and forth with him finding removal for my guys, but I also get down TNN and Sylvan Library so I'm able to keep up with his card advantage. We also both play like idiots and manage to each pick up 2 Warnings apiece in about 2 minutes. Yeesh. Sylvan Library keeps the flow of dudes going and he can't keep up.
Game 2: I T1 Thoughtseize, take his Spell Snare, T2 Sylvan Library, pay 8 life the next turn and he can't keep up with my flood of guys.

5-1 (10-6)

Top 8 - vs Death & Taxes

Yet another buddy of mine!

Game 1: I'm higher seed, so I choose to play. I aggro out on him with Delver, Tarmogoyf, and TNN. Yeah TNN is still really good vs those fair decks.
Game 2: We get in a stalemate where he has Meekstone out and Batterskull (dead Germ) + SoFI, but then gets Thalia out and she Voltron's up all over my face.
Game 3: He misses his T3 land drop and I Wasteland his Wasteland (he has a Plains for his other land). He did manage to cast 2 SFM so I know he has Batterskull + Jitte in hand. The game gets to a point where he has 6 cards in hand, a Mom, 1 plains, vs my 4 lands, flipped Delver, and I have a hand of Golgari Charm (he knows of it because of the Delver), Liliana, and Krosan Grip. I play Liliana and know that as soon as I play her, I made a mistake. Stuck, I -2 her and swing in, hoping he doesn't hit a land drop. He rips a Plains and slams down a Serra Avenger. I hold Delver back to block and of course he has StP and kills Liliana. He drops 2 more Serra Avengers and we actually end up having a very close game, but I think it would've gone much differently if I had waited to Golgari Charm the Mom away at the end of his turn, then dropped Liliana to kill his Avenger. Shows that I still need more practice with the deck!

5-2 (11-8)

Gratz to your finish, you drew a lot of Sylvans for a 1off ;-) I tried TNN a bit in the Stalker slot and we can really play him, especially because it ups the blue count for FoW which give a bit of consistence. At the moment I prefer Stalker but TNN is in my opinion the best replacing card for that slot. Im not sure about 19 lands but ok...Dimir charm seems really sweet to me! Having Envelop, Disfigure & some library trick all in 2 mana instant seems very flexible, I will give it a try.
What is the reason/experiences about Maelstrom Pulse? You were not very happy with it, why? How were Dimir Charm for you?

Greetings

[Esper3k]

Gratz to your finish, you drew a lot of Sylvans for a 1off ;-) I tried TNN a bit in the Stalker slot and we can really play him, especially because it ups the blue count for FoW which give a bit of consistence. At the moment I prefer Stalker but TNN is in my opinion the best replacing card for that slot. Im not sure about 19 lands but ok...Dimir charm seems really sweet to me! Having Envelop, Disfigure & some library trick all in 2 mana instant seems very flexible, I will give it a try.
What is the reason/experiences about Maelstrom Pulse? You were not very happy with it, why? How were Dimir Charm for you?

Greetings

Hah yeah Sylvan Library was a champ - it knows I love it so I guess it always gravitates to me!

My problem with Stalker was that it was often great in G1, but I ended up boarding it out most of the time against the white decks. TNN is less good G1 against the non-white decks, but can always stay in G2/3 against them though.

I liked Dimir Charm in theory, but in practice, often had a hard time finding stuff to cut to board it in. Against combo, while having the Envelop option was great if you're on the play, being on the draw and needing the Envelop on T1 (their T2) was something I've wished I've had.

Re: Maelstrom Pulse - I think it's the combination of 3 mana + Sorcery Speed. I'm already playing the Grip, so I have an answer to artifact/enchantments, Dismember gives me an answer to larger creatures, so I guess for me, I didn't feel the need for it as much. Also remember I'm playing three 3-drops in the main already, so every one I add in starts to feel more and more clunky to me.

[KobeBryan]

Hah yeah Sylvan Library was a champ - it knows I love it so I guess it always gravitates to me!

My problem with Stalker was that it was often great in G1, but I ended up boarding it out most of the time against the white decks. TNN is less good G1 against the non-white decks, but can always stay in G2/3 against them though.

I liked Dimir Charm in theory, but in practice, often had a hard time finding stuff to cut to board it in. Against combo, while having the Envelop option was great if you're on the play, being on the draw and needing the Envelop on T1 (their T2) was something I've wished I've had.

Re: Maelstrom Pulse - I think it's the combination of 3 mana + Sorcery Speed. I'm already playing the Grip, so I have an answer to artifact/enchantments, Dismember gives me an answer to larger creatures, so I guess for me, I didn't feel the need for it as much. Also remember I'm playing three 3-drops in the main already, so every one I add in starts to feel more and more clunky to me.

Maelstrom pulse really isn't to answer enchantments or artifacts because you have decays and golgari charms. Outside of moat and humility (both not really played), what can't decay do?

What you really need pulse for is the catch all card where you have absolutely no answers for...like jace and other weird things that do not come up often, hence the 1 of.

[Esper3k]

Maelstrom pulse really isn't to answer enchantments or artifacts because you have decays and golgari charms. Outside of moat and humility (both not really played), what can't decay do?

What you really need pulse for is the catch all card where you have absolutely no answers for...like jace and other weird things that do not come up often, hence the 1 of.

And other than Jace, which we can still take care of with TNN, having an advanced board state, countermagic, or hand disruption, what do you need Pulse for?

Sure, it's nice to sometimes have a catchall, but it's not 100% necessary, especially if you'd rather have a card targeted more directly at specific matchups.

[KobeBryan]

And other than Jace, which we can still take care of with TNN, having an advanced board state, countermagic, or hand disruption, what do you need Pulse for?

Sure, it's nice to sometimes have a catchall, but it's not 100% necessary, especially if you'd rather have a card targeted more directly at specific matchups.

I actually don't feel pulse is all too necessary. I rather get something else in the sideboard like an extra liliana or a clique. or maybe even more countermagic

[sawatarix]

Manipulato well done,greetings to your legacy crew in munich !
Next time i'll join the party (i first have to get there somehow)

@creaturediscussion:
I'm not a fan of tombstalker right now because of all the jaces everywhere,it's just to easy for the opponent to get rid of the demon.


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Dragonslayer_90]

Manipulato well done,greetings to your legacy crew in munich !
Next time i'll join the party (i first have to get there somehow)

@creaturediscussion:
I'm not a fan of tombstalker right now because of all the jaces everywhere,it's just to easy for the opponent to get rid of the demon.


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

By "jaces everywhere" do you mean the rise of miracles? For me Tombstalker has been fine really, but then again my meta is unusually light on blade decks for an American shop and has one miracles player that's not always there.

[Manipulato]

Manipulato well done,greetings to your legacy crew in munich !
Next time i'll join the party (i first have to get there somehow)

@creaturediscussion:
I'm not a fan of tombstalker right now because of all the jaces everywhere,it's just to easy for the opponent to get rid of the demon.


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

Hi Sawatarix,

how I said before, TNN is a good option in the Stalker slot but my theory was if I play TNN MD he gets a bit worse in G2 & G3 because my oponents will hate him + I bring in my own Charms a lot, so it can produce stupid situations where I want to Charm the board but kill my own TNN, for example. Most of the time I board out 2 Stalker and bring in the 2 Cliques (less GYdepending & more flexible), if I would bring in 2 Cliques for 2 TNN it would be the same problem because both die to -1/-1 effects etc...Plus I really like the big fat flying asshole demon :laugh: and he is just a lategame bomb and my oponents plowed Goyf or Delver before...

PS: Our gang was not from Munich, we were from Kempten (Allgäu) :wink:, but no problem BAYERN DES SAMA MIA :laugh:

[sawatarix]

By the way, i have built a completely different team america and tested it against some buddys of my testing team (skilled players ).
The results were fine,i'm pretty satisfied with the list so far and
I also can imagine to bring the list to larger events like the bazaar of moxen.
Maybe the name Team America is not correct,should name it "canadian ******** with better creatures"


Here we go:

Deck: Team America by Kai Thiele (20.03.2014)

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:12
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker

Spells:29
4 Brainstorm
1 Disfigure
4 Ponder
3 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
2 Dismember
4 Force of Will

Lands:19
1 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:15

***In progress so far***

It's basically bug delver without discard but stifles.
In the current metagame the wasteland/stifle package is very good but Rug's creatures were not good enough to seal the deal anymore after deathrite shaman and true name nemesis got printed.
The playstyle is also kinda different (similar to rug,reactive)

I'm still in the developing process,Feedback is appreciated :-)



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Esper3k]

I actually don't feel pulse is all too necessary. I rather get something else in the sideboard like an extra liliana or a clique. or maybe even more countermagic

I've often wished for a second Clique as well, but as always, sideboard space is so tight and it's a pain figuring out what to cut.

[Razorwynd]

...
3 Deathrite Shaman
...

Isn't this card a 1 mana planeswalker, don't you want to max out on these. I am pretty sure this is the 2nd best creature ever, next to Stoneforge Mystic. Why only three?

[Juice11]

Isn't this card a 1 mana planeswalker, don't you want to max out on these. I am pretty sure this is the 2nd best creature ever, next to Stoneforge Mystic. Why only three?

I agree, anything but 4 seems like the wrong number in this deck. I think it's arguably better than stoneforge.

I have also been running stifles, but instead of cutting the discard package, I cut the dazes. I'm just not the biggest fan of daze. It serves a purpose, but I honestly haven't missed them much. I have 4 extra counters and a clique to come in vs combo so I don't really feel like I am not protected enough.

My list is:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Tombstalker
2 True-Name Nemesis

1 Liliana of the Veil

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
3 stifle
2 Disfigure
3 Force of Will
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
1 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize

2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland


SB:

1 Abrupt Decay
1 Envelop
1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
2 Golgari Charm
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Spell Pierce
2 Null Rod
1 Sylvan Library
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Grafdigger's cage

I haven't found my preferred creature base as of yet. TNN seems so underwhelming without equipment, but it flat out wins games sometimes. I have recently cut one goyf for one tombstalker, and I like it so far. I really hate having graveyard hate shrink my creatures so I have one clique in the sideboard to come in for combo and decks with a lot of graveyard hate. I often want 2, but it's really awkward bringing in golgari charms and cliques at the same time.

[Manipulato]

I agree, anything but 4 seems like the wrong number in this deck. I think it's arguably better than stoneforge.

I have also been running stifles, but instead of cutting the discard package, I cut the dazes. I'm just not the biggest fan of daze. It serves a purpose, but I honestly haven't missed them much. I have 4 extra counters and a clique to come in vs combo so I don't really feel like I am not protected enough.

My list is:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Tombstalker
2 True-Name Nemesis

1 Liliana of the Veil

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
3 stifle
2 Disfigure
3 Force of Will
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
1 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize

2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland


SB:

1 Abrupt Decay
1 Envelop
1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
2 Golgari Charm
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Spell Pierce
2 Null Rod
1 Sylvan Library
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Grafdigger's cage

I haven't found my preferred creature base as of yet. TNN seems so underwhelming without equipment, but it flat out wins games sometimes. I have recently cut one goyf for one tombstalker, and I like it so far. I really hate having graveyard hate shrink my creatures so I have one clique in the sideboard to come in for combo and decks with a lot of graveyard hate. I often want 2, but it's really awkward bringing in golgari charms and cliques at the same time.

Sawatarix list is way more tempo oriented than any other TA/BUG list, so 4 Daze ar a must (it would be like playing RUG without Daze). Sawatatix is a experienced bUrg Player/RUG Player, that should be a reason in playing only 3 DS and only 12 creatures :wink:

[Juice11]

Sawatarix list is way more tempo oriented than any other TA/BUG list, so 4 Daze ar a must (it would be like playing RUG without Daze). Sawatatix is a experienced bUrg Player/RUG Player, that should be a reason in playing only 3 DS and only 12 creatures :wink:

I agree that daze in his list is needed, I just said I don't personally like it so I didn't include it in mine.

If you want to build TA as a tempo deck similar to RUG maybe DRS is a bit too slow which is why he doesn't have the 4th copy. I'm not sure though, not having 4 just seems wrong. I'm sure he has reasons, and I would like to hear them if possible. I just don't think I would play a bug list without the full 4, it's too good of a card.

[sawatarix]

Okay so here some explanations about my thoughts:

I played Team America long time ago and it felt very clunky - the whole deck in general.There were to many spells with casting cost 2 or more and
after liliana became a fix slot in the maindeck for many people i knew that this deck won't be a tempodeck anymore.Its basically a midrange deck with delver of secrets and dazes,similar to uwr delver.
The Deck i'm personally most experienced with is RUG Delver and i played it over all the other delverdecks for a long time,especially in tokio during 2012.
However after the printing of Deathrite Shaman and True-Name Nemesis it got pushed out of the DTB status and the reason was RUGs creature base.
They got stalled all day long.While the creatures got worse many people haven't realised that the deckconcept is still powerful and i'm talking about stifle+wasteland+daze+1cc removal.

So i started to brew a deck with RUG's strategy but with better creatures in the current metagame and here you have it.
the deck plays elegant and reactive and RUG-players will love it for sure.
12 creatures should be in the deck as drawing multiple dudes during a game feels always bad.'the more reactive spells the better' i used to say when i played RUG.
While Deathrite Shaman is a great creature in general , he is not the best one to pressure our opponent in a few turns like all the other creatures in the deck do.
So i endet in playing:

3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker

(Sidenote: When i played RUG i used to play just 10-11 creatures)

The Deck is pretty powerful and that's indeed a deck i can imagine to bring to larger events like BOM 9 in may.

Thx for reading :D

- Team RUG-Star Berlin -

[Razorwynd]

Sawatatix is a experienced bUrg Player/RUG Player, that should be a reason in playing only 3 DS and only 12 creatures :wink: I am sure that if the 2 damage from deathrite shaman was red instead of black every RUG list would play 4. The fact that they don't play any is a result of them not having access to black. If you are so opposed to DRS why not just play mongoose?

[YamiJoey]

Did some Magics with these things:

Permanents: 16
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Dark Confidant
1 Sylvan Library
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Liliana of the Veil

Spells: 24
4 Brainstorm
2 Disfigure
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Daze
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Force of Will

Lands: 20
4 Wasteland
2 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Watery Grave (So pro.)

Sideboard
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Spell Pierce
3 Golgari Charm
1 Life from the Loam
1 Dismember
1 Krosan Grip
1 Submerge
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique

R1: Play Vs Matty (RDW)
G1: I take some Bolts to the face and he dicks around killing my threats. I end up with a DRS in play and choke his GLM out of the game. He double PoP's me for 8 a piece. I fetch and fail to find then Waste my Sea to take 4 instead of 16. This is why you chain your cards not like a total tool so you can still six your opponent. (I'd still have won, but whatever.)
Board: -2 Dark Confidant, -2 Thoughtseize, -1 Wasteland / +2 Spell Pierce, +1 Golgari Charm, +1 Liliana of the Veil, +1 Vendilion Clique
G2: Ponder -> Double Deathrite. He eventually ends up with 3 Grim Lavamancers on the table. I make a Tarmogoyf.

1-0 (2-0)

R2: Play Vs My partner Daniel (Dredge)
G1: He double Mulligans, I keep Deathrite Shaman. I then swiftly lose after being forced to Disfigure it to stop him from making 6 Zombies on T3.
Sideboard: -1 Liliana of the Veil, -2 Thoughtseize, -3 Hymn to Tourach, , -3 Abrupt Decay (?) / +2 Spell Pierce, +1 Dismember, +1 Grafdigger's Cage, +2 True-Name Nemesis, +1 Vendilion Clique
G2: Force of Will a thing. Make a Delver and flip it. He casts a Therapy. I Disfigure my Delver to exile a pair of Bridges and he tells me he's targeting himself. Not sure what actually happened here, but I got a little pissed off. He reanimates an Iona. I end up being 1 short of killing him with a True-Name Nemesis and Deathrite because he managed to Dredge a pair of Ichorids during his next Draw Step. I was really pissed off at that bit.

1-1 (2-2)

R3: Play Vs Ste Ishy (Sneak)
G1: I keep a hand that involves double Hymn to Tourach and a Liliana. The first Hymn gets Forced, the second resolves hitting Griselbrand and Show and Tell. He plays a Sneak Attack from 4 mana and I Daze it even though he is under 0 pressure. I slam a Lili and he dies a few turns later.
Sideboard: -2 Disfigure, -3 Abrupt Decay / +2 Spell Pierce, +1 Krosan Grip, +1 Liliana of the Veil, +1 Vendilion Clique
G2: I make a Deathrite on T2 and it goes almost all of the way, with a single attack from a flipped Delver or a 3/4 Goyf connecting. (It was 3 damage, whatever it was.) Easy games, he's not had that much experience with the deck.

2-1 (4-2)

R4: Draw Vs Ash (Enchantress)
G1: Again, I know what he's on. I double Hymn him (because I draw all of them all of the time) and then he reminds me that he draws four-hundred cards a turn in this deck. I make some guys with which to turn sideways. I ten him in a turn.
Sideboard: -1 Liliana of the Veil, -2 Disfigure, -3 Daze, -3 Hymn to Tourach / +1 Creeping Tar Pit, +2 Spell Pierce, +3 Golgari Charm, +1 Life from the Loam, +1 Krosan Grip, +1 Vendilion Clique
G2: Tar Pit, into Bob, into Goyf. Attack for 6. He plays Elephant Grass. I make two more Goys, untap and Grip his Grass. Swing for 14 on T5. This is not how I expected to play this deck today, but whatever works, man.
[ID R5]
3-1-1 (6-2)
6th in T8

T8: Draw Vs Mike (Pox)
G1: The first time since R1 I've been mulliganing blind. I keep a fairly decent hand involving Watery Grave, Deathrite and some stuff. He makes a T1 Wasteland. I make Sea -> DRS. He makes Urborg and Smallpoxes. I Daze it, untap and Waste his Urborg. He makes a Mishra's Factory and is colourless for about three turns. There's not much chance of me losing after he spends so much time doing absolutely nothing. He makes a Smallpox but I've been playing magic between then.
Sideboard: -1 Liliana of the Veil, -2 Thoughtseize, -3 Hymn to Tourach / +2 Spell Pierce, +1 Life from the Loam, +1 Dismember (OR), +2 True-Name Nemesis, +1 Vendilion Clique (OR)
G2: He Thoughtseizes me and sees Daze and Spell Pierce. I make a T1 Watery Grave untapped and play a threat. Daze, untap and make it again. OH YEAH! He then misses a Land Drop, I untap and do something, then he throws a Liliana into my Spell Pierce for some reason. I untap and kill him. No idea what he was intending to do.

4-1-1 (8-2)

T4: Draw Vs Sean (Elves)
G1: I know what he's on and I keep a sort of sketchy one that has Disfigure and Decay. He EoT fetches for a Dryad Arbor. I Disfigure it. He makes about 5 guys including a pair of Deathrites to my one. I counter a Natural Order, untap and Thoughtseize, see 3 Lands. I end up taking a tonne.
Sideboard: -1 Liliana of the Veil, -2 Thoughtseize, -3 Daze, 3 Hymn to Tourach / +2 Spell Pierce, +3 Golgari Charm, +1 Life from the Loam, +1 Dismember, +1 Submerge, +1 Grafdigger's Cage
G2: I draw a Golgari Charm and Disfigure something at a relevant time. I opt to be greedy with it whilst he has Heritage Druid, and he ends up finding a Craterhoof Behemoth. I Golgari Charm laving him with 2 guys. I take 8, untap and kill him. Hate Cards: The Gathering.
He sideboards a single card which turns out to be a Ruric Thar that he'd taken out.
G3: I make a T1 Deathrite, T2 Delver of Secrets. Dismember his Deathrite Shaman or Wirewood Symbiot, then Disfigure another a turn or two later. I end up with a pair of Deathrite Shamans, Goyf, and Delver when he casts a Ruric Thar. In response I Brainstorm and Decay something. I miss how big my Tarmogoyf is, fail to see the "Block with everything, kill your guy" plan and end up being 2 damage short of killing him with DRS after drawing six Lands in a row. It was a super frustrating game. In hindsight I should've just cracked all my fetchlands. I was saving them for a Brainstorm/Delver trick, but if I drew any Spell then he died, so that was irrelivant. I do it on the final turn to get my last two lands out of my deck, leaving me with 6 Fetches and 2 Wastes. I draw a Wasteland.

4-2-1 (9-4)

Really happy with the deck, and generally happy with how I played considering it's my first time with the deck in a real game of Magic. I've always been a huge. When I started playing Legacy I threw together my own BUG Delver list and it was about 2 cards away from the 60 did well at an SCG Open/GP/whatever, so I instantly fell in love with it. It plays exactly how I expected it to. The only underwhelming cards were the Clique that I basically never drew, and the TNN's that were there for decks I never faced. They were still at least relevant against the decks I didn't want them against (ie random threat Vs Dredge). I Think I could play this 75 for a long time and not get upset by it.

EDIT: I have no idea how to take notes to refer to after a tournament, nor any idea how to actually write a coherent paragraph, so I apologise for that. If there are specifics you'd like to know just ask and I'll let you know.

[Asthereal]

@YamiJoey: If you don't have access to the full set of Seas, why not play -1 Grave +1 fetch? Fetch into Sea is better than just playing a Grave.

[YamiJoey]

I was expecting to have the Seas, and when I didn't get the full set of duals I just kept my proxies in without putting too much thought into it. That may or may not be correct, and I may look into it in the near future. I should now be on 3 Seas, so I'll look into playing a Fetch over the Grave next time. It definitely felt like shit when I had Daze -> Watery Grave. My T1 in the Semis was a tapped Watery Grave, and that felt sweet, so I might keep it. ;)

[Asthereal]

It definitely felt like shit when I had Daze -> Watery Grave.
Ouch, I hadn't even thought of that... :eek:

After I posted my remark I already thought you probably didn't have access to everything you planned on having access to, so the fetch might not have been an option anyway. I just thought I'd even prefer a black or blue off colour fetch (Mire/Flats/Strand/Tarn) over de second Grave anytime. Good thing you now have the third Sea. I do think this deck needs at least three. :smile:

[Dragonslayer_90]

Hey guys. Sorry I haven't finished the primer yet. For the last three weeks I've been having loads of work. I should be able to finish it this weekend or next though as my school work is going to be light for a little while until it gets closer to finals.

Anyways. I was wondering what were other players' opinion on Dark Confidant in the UWr Delver Matchup? Does he perform well? I cannot say I have tested him thoroughly, but in the one game I played at my LGS against a UWR player he seemed to seal the deal when I was a little ahead but didn't do enough when I was behind (especially if my opponent had an aggressive start on the play with a Turn one Delver). Take that with a grain of salt though as it was just one match. I want to hear from those who have played with him a lot against Patriot.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that the primer I'm working on is on page 187 just to remind you guys. Feel free to post on here or PM if you have any feedback for it.

[wwoning]

Guys, could really use some help on my boarding plan. Made this for myself for some upcoming tournaments. Please point out to me if I seem to have made some dumb choices. I dont have much experience with the deck yet.

Main board

20 Lands
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs

16 Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant

24 Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Will
4 Daze
1 Disfigure
60

Sideboard, for a fairly unknown meta.

3 Spell Pierce
1 Force of Will
1 Grafdigger´s Cage
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Krosan Grip
2 Disfigure
3 Golgari Charm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Null Rod

Here´s my deck by deck plan:

UWr Delver
+ 2 Disfigure + 3 Golgari Charm+ 1 Vendilion Clique + 1 Krosan Grip + 1 Null Rod + 2 Surgical Extraction
OTP: - 3 FoW- 2 Daze - 1 Goyf - 2 Confidant - 2 Hymn
OTD: - 3 FoW- 4 Daze - 1 Goyf - 2 Confidant

RUG Delver
+ 2 Disfigure + 2 Surgical Extraction
OTP: - 1 Hymn - 3 FoW
OTD: -3 FoW - 1 Hymn

Sneaky Show
+ 3 Spell Pierce + 1 FoW+ 2 Golgari Charm + 1 Krosan Grip + 1 Surgical Extraction
- 4 Abrupt Decay- 1 Bayou - 1 Disfigure - 1 Confidant - 1 Goyf

Blade
+ 2 Disfigure, + 2 Golgari Charm (if TNN), +1 Krosan Grip, +1 Clique, + 2 Spell Pierce
OTD: - 3 FoW - 4 Daze - 1 Confidant
OTP: - 3 FoW - ???

Miracles
+3 Pierce + 1 FoW + 1 Grip +1 Clique+ 1 Surgical Extraction
- 1 Island - 4 Daze - 1 Confidant - 1 Disfigure

Death&Taxes
+ 2 Disfigure + 3 Golgari Charm + 1 Krosan Grip + 1 Clique
- 4 Daze - 3 FoW

Painter:
+ 3 Spell Pierce + 1 FoW + 2 Surgical
- 4 Confidant - 2 Hymn

Jund
+ 2 Disfigure + 3 Spell Pierce + 2 Surgical Extraction
OTD: - 3 FoW - 4 Daze
OTP: - 3 FoW - 2 Confidant - 2 Hymn

Shardless BUG
+ 3 Disfigure + 2 Surgical Extraction
- 3 FoW - 1 Abrupt Decay - 1 Bayou

Merfolk
+ 2 Disfigure + 3 Golgari Charm + 1 Krosan Grip + 1 Surgical Extraction
- 2/3 FoW - 2/3 Daze - 1 Bayou

BUG (Mirror)
+ 2 Surgical Extraction + 2 Disfigure + 1 FoW
- 3 Daze - 2 Confidant

Elves
+ 3 Golgari Charm, + 2 Disfigure + 1 Grafdiggers Cage + 3 spell pierce + 1 fow
- 4 Daze - 1 Bayou - 1 Confidant - 4 Hymn

ANT
+ 3 Spell Pierce + 1 FoW + 2 Surgical Extraction + 1 Grafdiggers Cage
- 4 Abrupt Decay - 1 Bayou - 1 Disfigure - 1 Delver

Jund Depths
+ 2 Surgical Extraction + 1 Grafdiggers Cage + 3 Spell Pierce
- 3 FoW - 3 Daze

Dredge
+ 2 Surgical Extraction + 1 Grafdiggers Cage + 3 Spell Pierce
- 3 FoW - 2 Daze - 1 Bayou

Goblins
+ 2 Disfigure + 3 Golgari Charm + 1 Krosan Grip + 1 Null Rod
- 3 FoW - 4 Daze

[Myelectronicdays]

Guys, could really use some help on my boarding plan. Made this for myself for some upcoming tournaments. Please point out to me if I seem to have made some dumb choices. I dont have much experience with the deck yet.

Main board

20 Lands
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs

16 Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman

24 Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Will
4 Daze
1 Disfigure
60

Sideboard, for a fairly unknown meta.

3 Spell Pierce
1 Force of Will
1 Grafdigger´s Cage
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Krosan Grip
2 Disfigure
3 Golgari Charm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Null Rod

Here´s my deck by deck plan:

UWr Delver
+ 2 Disfigure + 3 Golgari Charm+ 1 Vendilion Clique + 1 Krosan Grip + 1 Null Rod + 2 Surgical Extraction
OTP: - 3 FoW- 2 Daze - 1 Goyf - 2 Confidant - 2 Hymn
OTD: - 3 FoW- 4 Daze - 1 Goyf - 2 Confidant

RUG Delver
+ 2 Disfigure + 2 Surgical Extraction
OTP: - 1 Hymn - 3 FoW
OTD: -3 FoW - 1 Hymn

Sneaky Show
+ 3 Spell Pierce + 1 FoW+ 2 Golgari Charm + 1 Krosan Grip + 1 Surgical Extraction
- 4 Abrupt Decay- 1 Bayou - 1 Disfigure - 1 Confidant - 1 Goyf

Blade
+ 2 Disfigure, + 2 Golgari Charm (if TNN), +1 Krosan Grip, +1 Clique, + 2 Spell Pierce
OTD: - 3 FoW - 4 Daze - 1 Confidant
OTP: - 3 FoW - ???

Miracles
+3 Pierce + 1 FoW + 1 Grip +1 Clique+ 1 Surgical Extraction
- 1 Island - 4 Daze - 1 Confidant - 1 Disfigure

Death&Taxes
+ 2 Disfigure + 3 Golgari Charm + 1 Krosan Grip + 1 Clique
- 4 Daze - 3 FoW

Painter:
+ 3 Spell Pierce + 1 FoW + 2 Surgical
- 4 Confidant - 2 Hymn

Jund
+ 2 Disfigure + 3 Spell Pierce + 2 Surgical Extraction
OTD: - 3 FoW - 4 Daze
OTP: - 3 FoW - 2 Confidant - 2 Hymn

Shardless BUG
+ 3 Disfigure + 2 Surgical Extraction
- 3 FoW - 1 Abrupt Decay - 1 Bayou

Merfolk
+ 2 Disfigure + 3 Golgari Charm + 1 Krosan Grip + 1 Surgical Extraction
- 2/3 FoW - 2/3 Daze - 1 Bayou

BUG (Mirror)
+ 2 Surgical Extraction + 2 Disfigure + 1 FoW
- 3 Daze - 2 Confidant

Elves
+ 3 Golgari Charm, + 2 Disfigure + 1 Grafdiggers Cage + 3 spell pierce + 1 fow
- 4 Daze - 1 Bayou - 1 Confidant - 4 Hymn

ANT
+ 3 Spell Pierce + 1 FoW + 2 Surgical Extraction + 1 Grafdiggers Cage
- 4 Abrupt Decay - 1 Bayou - 1 Disfigure - 1 Delver

Jund Depths
+ 2 Surgical Extraction + 1 Grafdiggers Cage + 3 Spell Pierce
- 3 FoW - 3 Daze

Dredge
+ 2 Surgical Extraction + 1 Grafdiggers Cage + 3 Spell Pierce
- 3 FoW - 2 Daze - 1 Bayou

Goblins
+ 2 Disfigure + 3 Golgari Charm + 1 Krosan Grip + 1 Null Rod
- 3 FoW - 4 Daze


biggest issue i see is your boarding out confidants but don't have them in your main deck list.

[wwoning]

biggest issue i see is your boarding out confidants but don't have them in your main deck list.

Sorry, my mistake. Fixed it in the post.

[YamiJoey]

How is the full four Bobs treating you? Also, no Lilianas anywhere in your 75 seems relatively ambitious. They're incredible.

[Myelectronicdays]

How is the full four Bobs treating you? Also, no Lilianas anywhere in your 75 seems relatively ambitious. They're incredible.

I'd have to agree. Ripping a turn 2 Liliana can feel pretty amazing in the deck with DRS. Not to mention with so much TNN still around, she saves lives.

The only thing I've been playing with is replacing the tombstalkers with 2 confidants like some other lists have been trying.. but 4 seems like alot.

[Water_Wizard]

Agreed w/ what's written above - 2 Bobs and 2 Liliana's is probably better than 4 Bobs. Probably need a 3rd Liliana in the board. Why don't you have any Thoughtseize?


UWr Delver
+ 2 Disfigure + 3 Golgari Charm+ 1 Vendilion Clique + 1 Krosan Grip + 1 Null Rod + 2 Surgical Extraction
OTP: - 3 FoW- 2 Daze - 1 Goyf - 2 Confidant - 2 Hymn
OTD: - 3 FoW- 4 Daze - 1 Goyf - 2 Confidant

Why are you bringing in Golgari Charm? In this match-up, leave Daze in on the play, bring in some FOW on the draw. I would leave in Confidant. You need Liliana in the match-up. Surgical and Null Rod are not worth it. Leave in Hymn on the play - that's when it's most powerful. You can Hymn the turn after they SFM and hopefully make them discard the equipment.


RUG Delver
+ 2 Disfigure + 2 Surgical Extraction
OTP: - 1 Hymn - 3 FoW
OTD: -3 FoW - 1 Hymn

I would bring in Clique and Spell Pierce. OTD, cut Daze.


Sneaky Show
+ 3 Spell Pierce + 1 FoW+ 2 Golgari Charm + 1 Krosan Grip + 1 Surgical Extraction
- 4 Abrupt Decay- 1 Bayou - 1 Disfigure - 1 Confidant - 1 Goyf

Leave in Goyf and Confidant. Do not bring in Golgari Charm or Grip unless you expect Blood Moon. Surgical is okay to remove Emrakul/Griselbrand/S&T.


Blade
+ 2 Disfigure, + 2 Golgari Charm (if TNN), +1 Krosan Grip, +1 Clique, + 2 Spell Pierce
OTD: - 3 FoW - 4 Daze - 1 Confidant
OTP: - 3 FoW - ???

Looks good, but I would leave in Confidant. Card advantage is huge in this MU.


Miracles
+3 Pierce + 1 FoW + 1 Grip +1 Clique+ 1 Surgical Extraction
- 1 Island - 4 Daze - 1 Confidant - 1 Disfigure

Again, leave in Confidant. You aren't running Islands (did you mean Bayou?), Golgari Charm is okay to take care of Counterbalance/RIP or regen after Supreme Verdict.


Death&Taxes
+ 2 Disfigure + 3 Golgari Charm + 1 Krosan Grip + 1 Clique
- 4 Daze - 3 FoW

Looks solid. Some FOW is okay to handle turn 1 Aether Vial. Null Rod looks good here.


Painter:
+ 3 Spell Pierce + 1 FoW + 2 Surgical
- 4 Confidant - 2 Hymn

I would keep in Hymn over Surgical. If you get in a good Hymn, they are in top deck mode. You need to bring in Grip in the match-up. Grip in response to Grindstone activation. Null Rod is necessary.


Jund
+ 2 Disfigure + 3 Spell Pierce + 2 Surgical Extraction
OTD: - 3 FoW - 4 Daze
OTP: - 3 FoW - 2 Confidant - 2 Hymn

I would not bring in Spell Pierce. I would take out Daze and focus on Confidant/Hymn.


Shardless BUG
+ 3 Disfigure + 2 Surgical Extraction
- 3 FoW - 1 Abrupt Decay - 1 Bayou

-2 Surgical, +1 Decay, +1 Bayou (they run Wastelands)


Merfolk
+ 2 Disfigure + 3 Golgari Charm + 1 Krosan Grip + 1 Surgical Extraction
- 2/3 FoW - 2/3 Daze - 1 Bayou

If they run Wasteland, I would keep the Bayou. FOW can be helpful for turn 1 Aether Vial. I'm not sure why you are running Surgical here. Null Rod might be worth it if you expect Jitte (might be worth it for just Aether Vial)


BUG (Mirror)
+ 2 Surgical Extraction + 2 Disfigure + 1 FoW
- 3 Daze - 2 Confidant

Change Daze on play/draw. Keep in Confidants (or Liliana's if you replace them with that). No need to run Surgical.


Elves
+ 3 Golgari Charm, + 2 Disfigure + 1 Grafdiggers Cage + 3 spell pierce + 1 fow
- 4 Daze - 1 Bayou - 1 Confidant - 4 Hymn

Looks good.


ANT
+ 3 Spell Pierce + 1 FoW + 2 Surgical Extraction + 1 Grafdiggers Cage
- 4 Abrupt Decay - 1 Bayou - 1 Disfigure - 1 Delver

Definitely keep Delver in here. If anything, cut a Goyf. Abrupt Decay is good if you expect Carpet of Flowers or Xantid Swarm. One Surgical is enough. Null Rod is really good here (shuts down Lotus Petal and Lion's Eye Diamond).


Jund Depths
+ 2 Surgical Extraction + 1 Grafdiggers Cage + 3 Spell Pierce
- 3 FoW - 3 Daze

okay


Dredge
+ 2 Surgical Extraction + 1 Grafdiggers Cage + 3 Spell Pierce
- 3 FoW - 2 Daze - 1 Bayou

Against Dredge, Daze is usually a Counterspell. Therefore, I would keep Daze, depending upon how much mana they are running.


Goblins
+ 2 Disfigure + 3 Golgari Charm + 1 Krosan Grip + 1 Null Rod
- 3 FoW - 4 Daze

looks good.

[Razorwynd]

What are peoples thoughts on brining in golgari charm against decks like WUR tempo and RUG tempo? It seems really good, but I have not seen a lot of people advocating for it.

Against RUG, it kills non-threshold geese, non flipped delver, it regenerates a bolted,pyroblasted, or REBed creature and is randomly good against the random vortex and library.

Against WUR, it kills lava man and unflipped delver, and most importantly TNN, it kills rest in peace, detention sphere, and against can randomly regenerate a bolted or REBed dude.

Also it is just one less card to be countered by the blasts.

Altogether it seems like a great daze/force replacement in post board games.

Thoughts?

[wwoning]

Thanks for your detailed reply Water Wizard, this is VERY helpful to me!

On the choice for no Lilianas, I agree that it might not be optimal. I tried to keep the cmc low. Apart from FoW, everything mainboard is 1 or 2 mana. Apart from that, I feel that sticking a Liliana for a few turns as well as sticking Confidant for a few turns, should just win you the game. Only problem could be TNN, so I bring three Charm in every time I expect them.

On the Hymns, this is partly a personal preference, I just love to see people's faces when it resolves. For me, it is one of the most frustrating cards to play against. Also I expect a slightly more fair meta, and the life loss of Bob plus some Thoughtseizes could be problematic.

I have some small tournaments coming up, I will report back how the list is working out.

[Fl0do]

I'm toying with Team America atm, just enjoying the combined power of discard, counters and efficient removal.

I want to share my list, because I'm unsure about some numbers and I would be very pleased for some other opinions:


MD:
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island

1 Dark Confidant
2 True-Name Nemesis
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
3 Daze

SB:
2 Golgari Charm
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Disfigure
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Winter Orb
1 Sylvan Library
1 Null Rod
1 Envelop
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce

I'm pretty confident about the discard package and the cantrip package, also 4 Abrupt Decay feel mandatory for me. Liliana is a powerhouse, I really want at least 2 in my 75, but I don't know if the 3rd one in the SB is necessary.
Creature-wise I think I'm on a good way, fitting in 1-2 TNN gives you a bit of inevitability, which is fine I think, although I'm not playing any Equipments to make TNN ridiculous (it serves more the role of Tarmogoyf being a beatster or a good defender).
The lone Dark Confidant comes at the cost of a Tarmogoyf and I'm very unsure about him. I played once a list with 4 Confidants and he was awesome, but with this list I'm playing 4 cards with 3CC and 4 cards with 5CC maindeck and I don't think I want to draw the Confidant in multiples then. He sometimes wins games but I'm also fine if I draw a Liliana or TNN or a Force at anytime I could draw a confidant. Your opinions about that?
And I want to fit in the 4th Daze but I don't know what to cut, maybe 3 are just fine?! :S

The questionable slots in the SB for me are Sylvan Library, Liliana of the Veil and Diabolic Edict. Somehow I have the urge to fit in a second Flusterstorm and some number of Dismember (probably 1) and I don't really know what to cut.
Is Grafdiggers Cage, Golgari Charm and removal enough vs. Elves or would you pack some additional Plagues in the SB?

Looking forward to your responses, thank you!

[Water_Wizard]

<----- 4 Wastelands?

[Fl0do]

<----- 4 Wastelands?

Lol, forgot to write them down. They're obv. in the deck ^^

[lurch]

Hi,

I am new to the thread. Quite similar to my team mate Sawatarix, I've been playing tempo for quite some time now - RUG, bUrg, UWR and the like. During the last 3 years, there was not one tournament that I brought a non-Delverdeck. The one blank spot with Delver decks I have is BUG - which I deem by far the best in the meta since GP Paris (imho Miracles, BUG, Blade, Combo). I have recently begun my preparations for Bazaar of Moxen, and I would appreciate some input for that.

In general, I am dedicated to run a "real" tempo deck. Most of the Team America lists seem way too clunky for me - which may be due to the fact that I am a spoiled brat by the super low curves of Sawatarix and my German ******hold list. I cannot imagine going to BOM with a 75 including 2 Bayous, 4 Dazes and 8 Cantrips - it just doesn't fit my playstile. I played this list in a smaller paper tournament yesterday, as well as online. For me, it puts up excellent results (4:0 in paper; 21:3 record online so far).


BUG ***Real*** Tempo
Team RUGSTAR Berlin

Creatures [13]
2 True-Name Nemesis
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets

Instants [20]
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember

Sorceries [9]
3 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder

Lands [19]
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
3 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

SIDEBOARD
1 Null Rod
1 Sylvan Library
2 Disfigure
2 Marsh Casualties
3 Submerge
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Dread of Night
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

For BOM, Dread of Night might be Life from the Loam.

From the typical builds, I have significantly lowered the curve and the BB requirements in the main. No Goyf, as I am not a huge fan of having them Sworded, Decayed or Dismembered when I have such a comparatively low creature count. 3 DRRs has proven the perfect number in bUrg, as drawing multiples does not fit my playstile. While I love Liliana when she hits the battlefield, she puts quite some strain on the manabase together with 3-4 Hymn to Tourach in many builds. When we played RUG, the way we beat BUG was often waste landing their U-sea when they fetched for U-sea first and then Bayou. In that case, Daze and all Cantrips were all dead - which is as I mentioned not a situation that I want to put myself in at BOM. At 28 Spells, the spell density is as high as in bUrg, making Delver flip reliably. The disruption suite makes Combo match ups a pure joke: the mix between 11 Counterspells and 5 Discard seems excellent to me. Also, I need the high spell count to reach threshold quickly for Mongoose. Sometimes, resolved Goyfs can be an issue - but still 4 main deck Goyf removal seem way better than in RUG.

Any thoughts? What is the reason BUG-people give no love to Nimble Mongoose?

[YamiJoey]

That style tends to favour not being Black. When you cast a Thoughtseize you're spending mana, then your opponent spends mana on casting a Spell. Now you're down by 1-mana. Cards like Nimble Mongoose aren't powerful enough on their own to justify that kind of tempo loss. This is why Canadian (I think. RUG) is successful. It forces its opponents to spend the same or more mana than them, and uses Stifle to strip their opponent 1-1 on both mana and cards, but netting you an extra mana every turn thereafter. BUG tends to play higher costing cards that just have a higher overall impact. The mana loss becomes less relevant because your cards are so significantly more powerful than your opponent's.

BUG Delver is not a tempo deck, it is a highly aggressive - highly disruptive - midrange deck. It plays very differently to other flavours of Delver. Though you mentioned playing BRUG, which I always designed as 'BUG with Bolts' to put it as simply as possible. (I may look over that again.)

[sawatarix]

Well i talked to my team mate an buddy lurch about his current list which i like and we are brewing the "hopefully" best tempoish bug deck for the Bazaar right now.
I personally would add 4 stifle instead of discard because stifle is an excellent card right now in the metagame - again.

I brought Burg Delver to the GP Paris and went not that great as espected,because the mana base sucked too often for my taste.
This bug build however has the same strategy while having a "solid" manabase but without bolts and blasts.
Greed has it's limit i have to admit.

There are very different interpretations on bug tempo i guess,depending on playstyle which is far more important than metagame shifts.



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[lurch]

BUG Delver is not a tempo deck, it is a highly aggressive - highly disruptive - midrange deck. It plays very differently to other flavours of Delver. Though you mentioned playing BRUG, which I always designed as 'BUG with Bolts' to put it as simply as possible. (I may look over that again.)

I brought this up as I identified this as the Tempo thread, as opposed to the Midrange/Contol Thread in the "Established" section. We rather designed bUrg similar to Canadian, i.e. RUG splashing black for (up to two) Decay, Deathrite Shaman and better sideboard options. Our focus was always keeping the curve extremely low. My whole point is bringing up a new style of BUG with a lower curve and a wider variety of disruption than burn and RUG.

I play this deck in a very reactive fashion. Nimble Mongoose is not an early game creature in the original sense. It is brilliant after a few turns when thresh is established. Check it out, YamiJoey, it does not compete in any way with Thoughtseize: In the early turns, I deplete my opponents' gas. When the coast is clear, I drop a threat, protect it and beat him dead.

[Dragonslayer_90]

Well guys, I buckled down today and took the time to finish the primer. It's pretty much done so I just messaged Zilla to replace the old primer with it. Here's a link to it: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?11605-DTB-Team-America-(Aggro-Tempo-Thread)&p=798679#post798679. Let me know if you guys have anything you want me to consider adding or changing in the primer.

[KobeBryan]

Well guys, I buckled down today and took the time to finish the primer. It's pretty much done so I just messaged Zilla to replace the old primer with it. Here's a link to it: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?11605-DTB-Team-America-(Aggro-Tempo-Thread)&p=798679#post798679. Let me know if you guys have anything you want me to consider adding or changing in the primer.

Hint: Don't let bloodmoon resolve.

[Dragonslayer_90]

Hint: Don't let bloodmoon resolve.

Are you saying Painter is important enough to include in Section VII :smile:

[KobeBryan]

Are you saying Painter is important enough to include in Section VII :smile:

Esper was complaining about it.

[Esper3k]

While I think there seems to be an uptick of it these days, I wouldn't put too much effort into it unless it is all over your local meta like it was in mine.

[Dragonslayer_90]

While I think there seems to be an uptick of it these days, I wouldn't put too much effort into it unless it is all over your local meta like it was in mine.

Eh, there's one person at my LGS who has been playing it for a little while to much success, but he's going to gut it for UWR Delver. Either way I'm not going to add a section for a deck that doesn't Top 8 all the much. I think Imperial Painter's probably really good meta but it's going to be perennially underrepresented because Imperial Recruiters, among other cards, are pretty expensive while also only going in one competitive deck. I think for decks that aren't represented as Tier 1-1.5 via results we just discuss in the thread.

[Asthereal]

PLayed a tourney yesterday (about 28 people, 5 rounds and cut-off to top-8).
Didn't go that well, but I learned a thing or two still. And I had fun anyway. :smile:

List:
4 Deathrite
4 Delver
4 Goyf
2 Stalker

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Hymn
4 Decay
1 Sylvan
1 Lily

4 Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical
9 Fetch
4 Waste

Side:
4 Pierce
4 Disfigure
1 Surgical
1 Cage
2 G. Charm
1 Grip
1 Clique
1 Lily

Round 1: UWr Miracles (my first competitive clash with Miracles). Game 1 he finds a Top, which in turn finds him every solution he needs for my stuff, just in time. He finishes with an Entreat for 7 in turn 30 or so. (side: -1 Bayou, -4 Daze, -1 Lily -perhaps that's wrong, +4 Pierce, +1 Grip, +1 Clique) Game 2 we have little time left, so it ends in a draw. 1-0-1

Round 2: Punishing Jund. Game 1 I get an early Stalker out. We fight over some resources but Stalker seals it. (side: -4 FoW, -4 Daze, +4 Disfigure, +1 Lily, +1 Clique, +1 Surgical, +1 Pierce) Game 2 we fight over resources, but this time she gets the edge and when I draw some lands she drops two guys and Lily. I do manage to Extract the Fires, but I lose to the board presence. Game 3 goes the exact same way as game 2, only this time she uses Relic to clear up the yard, and the turn after I draw Stalker. Hard luck I guess. (note: G3 I sided -1 Pierce, -1 Ponder, +2 Daze to try to get early board presence -failed I guess...) 1-2
So now I'm out of contest for top-8, but I play on anyway. Experience and fun, or stuff like that. :cool:

Round 3: The mirror! But he plays the weird 3 Goyf, 1 Stalker, 1 Bob, 1 TNN list. Game 1 I land Sylvan, which finds me infinite gas and I wreck him. (side: -4 FoW, -4 Daze, +4 Disfigure, +1 Lily, +1 Clique, +2 Pierce OTD /I keep Daze OTP) Game 2 is a bit closer, but I again get more board presence and keep him under pressure until he cannot find an answer when my last threat will kill him. 2-0

Round 4: Goblins. Game 1 he just overruns me. I keep a hand that is good against combo or control, and proceed to draw only lands afterwards. (side: -4 FoW, -4 Daze, +4 Disfigure, +2 Charm, +1 Clique, +1 Lily not sure if correct) Game 2 I completely wreck him. Is this a good matchup or not? I just don't know at this point. Game 3 he gets a Krenko online, which I have no proper solution for. Krenko goes nuts and I Charm to stall the game. In my turn 3 of the extra turns after time was called I have to find the second Charm, or he just kills me. I draw with Sylvan. Nothing. I fetch and cast Ponder. Nothing. I shuffle. He cuts. I draw. CHARM! :eek: Sorry man! I unwrap my present and walk away with an undeserved draw. 1-1-1

Round 5: UWr Miracles again. Game 1 I keep him under pressure, and he needs some serious shenanigans to not just die. At some point he just cannot find an answer to my threat and I take the game. (new side tech: -4 Daze, -1 Stalker (because of RIP), -1 Bayou, -1 Hymn, +4 Pierce, +1 Grip, +1 Clique, +1 Lily -again not sure what is correct) Game 2 he has no Top and I draw well, so I just wreck him. He does stall a bit here and there with a Terminus and Jace, but I just have too many threats. 2-1

End result: 2-2-1, so 50%. Not brilliant, but you cannot win them all.

I definitely didn't play my first Miracles match uptimally. Some thoughts on the matchup: Overextending into Terminus/Verdict seems bad. We don't have infinite threats, so losing a lot in one blow just means lights out. But... one threat is a slow clock, and giving Miracles time to assemble CounterTop and then Jace bouncing your one threat also means lights out. So my general rule right now is play one big and one small threat (so 1 Goyf/Stalker and 1 Deatnrite/Delver). Ot at least not more than two threats in total. That way I have a fast clock, but still it's only 2-for-1 if he wipes the board. Not sure if this is correct though.

Some questions remain:
1. How good is discard? If he has Top online, he just plays from the top of his deck. A well timed Hymn can wreck him though. I won the fifth round mainly on a good Hymn each game, I think.
2. How good is Liliana in this match? They have little threats to kill with Lily, but removing half their land seems good. I'm not sure though, because the discard ability isn't great.
3. How would the experienced players here board against them? Did I mess up my boarding, or was it "okay"?
4. What's our percentage against Miracles anyway? I really have no clue at this point. :tongue:

[Esper3k]

PLayed a tourney yesterday (about 28 people, 5 rounds and cut-off to top-8).
Didn't go that well, but I learned a thing or two still. And I had fun anyway. :smile:

List:
4 Deathrite
4 Delver
4 Goyf
2 Stalker

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Hymn
4 Decay
1 Sylvan
1 Lily

4 Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical
9 Fetch
4 Waste

Side:
4 Pierce
4 Disfigure
1 Surgical
1 Cage
2 G. Charm
1 Grip
1 Clique
1 Lily

Round 1: UWr Miracles (my first competitive clash with Miracles). Game 1 he finds a Top, which in turn finds him every solution he needs for my stuff, just in time. He finishes with an Entreat for 7 in turn 30 or so. (side: -1 Bayou, -4 Daze, -1 Lily -perhaps that's wrong, +4 Pierce, +1 Grip, +1 Clique) Game 2 we have little time left, so it ends in a draw. 1-0-1

Round 2: Punishing Jund. Game 1 I get an early Stalker out. We fight over some resources but Stalker seals it. (side: -4 FoW, -4 Daze, +4 Disfigure, +1 Lily, +1 Clique, +1 Surgical, +1 Pierce) Game 2 we fight over resources, but this time she gets the edge and when I draw some lands she drops two guys and Lily. I do manage to Extract the Fires, but I lose to the board presence. Game 3 goes the exact same way as game 2, only this time she uses Relic to clear up the yard, and the turn after I draw Stalker. Hard luck I guess. (note: G3 I sided -1 Pierce, -1 Ponder, +2 Daze to try to get early board presence -failed I guess...) 1-2
So now I'm out of contest for top-8, but I play on anyway. Experience and fun, or stuff like that. :cool:

Round 3: The mirror! But he plays the weird 3 Goyf, 1 Stalker, 1 Bob, 1 TNN list. Game 1 I land Sylvan, which finds me infinite gas and I wreck him. (side: -4 FoW, -4 Daze, +4 Disfigure, +1 Lily, +1 Clique, +2 Pierce OTD /I keep Daze OTP) Game 2 is a bit closer, but I again get more board presence and keep him under pressure until he cannot find an answer when my last threat will kill him. 2-0

Round 4: Goblins. Game 1 he just overruns me. I keep a hand that is good against combo or control, and proceed to draw only lands afterwards. (side: -4 FoW, -4 Daze, +4 Disfigure, +2 Charm, +1 Clique, +1 Lily not sure if correct) Game 2 I completely wreck him. Is this a good matchup or not? I just don't know at this point. Game 3 he gets a Krenko online, which I have no proper solution for. Krenko goes nuts and I Charm to stall the game. In my turn 3 of the extra turns after time was called I have to find the second Charm, or he just kills me. I draw with Sylvan. Nothing. I fetch and cast Ponder. Nothing. I shuffle. He cuts. I draw. CHARM! :eek: Sorry man! I unwrap my present and walk away with an undeserved draw. 1-1-1

Round 5: UWr Miracles again. Game 1 I keep him under pressure, and he needs some serious shenanigans to not just die. At some point he just cannot find an answer to my threat and I take the game. (new side tech: -4 Daze, -1 Stalker (because of RIP), -1 Bayou, -1 Hymn, +4 Pierce, +1 Grip, +1 Clique, +1 Lily -again not sure what is correct) Game 2 he has no Top and I draw well, so I just wreck him. He does stall a bit here and there with a Terminus and Jace, but I just have too many threats. 2-1

End result: 2-2-1, so 50%. Not brilliant, but you cannot win them all.

I definitely didn't play my first Miracles match uptimally. Some thoughts on the matchup: Overextending into Terminus/Verdict seems bad. We don't have infinite threats, so losing a lot in one blow just means lights out. But... one threat is a slow clock, and giving Miracles time to assemble CounterTop and then Jace bouncing your one threat also means lights out. So my general rule right now is play one big and one small threat (so 1 Goyf/Stalker and 1 Deatnrite/Delver). Ot at least not more than two threats in total. That way I have a fast clock, but still it's only 2-for-1 if he wipes the board. Not sure if this is correct though.

Some questions remain:
1. How good is discard? If he has Top online, he just plays from the top of his deck. A well timed Hymn can wreck him though. I won the fifth round mainly on a good Hymn each game, I think.
2. How good is Liliana in this match? They have little threats to kill with Lily, but removing half their land seems good. I'm not sure though, because the discard ability isn't great.
3. How would the experienced players here board against them? Did I mess up my boarding, or was it "okay"?
4. What's our percentage against Miracles anyway? I really have no clue at this point. :tongue:

I'm actually not a huge fan of Spell Pierce vs Miracles. It does very little vs their removal spells (StP, Terminus, Supreme Verdict) which are what actually wrecks us. Liliana is great but I wouldn't ultimate her unless she's at 7+ loyalty (most of the time). I think discard is fine. Hymn is actually most important when you can hit their lands with it. Yes, too is amazing for them but Hymn / Thoughtseize are still very strong because they can disrupt them just long enough for us to survive.

Sideboarding: Tombstalkers need to come out. They're terrible vs. StP, Terminus, Jace, RIP. Clique (surprise attacker and more importantly, can stop Miracles), KGrip, Liliana, need to come in. If they try and next level you by boarding out CB, you can trim an AD or two and swap the rest for Golgari Charm (kills RIP, protects from Supreme Verdict) so pay attention in G2. Finally, I think you have too many Spell Pierces and Disfigures in your board. Probably want to trim 1-2 apiece for other SB cards.

[Asthereal]

Thanks for the response, Esper! :smile:

I didn't side in Charms versus Miracles. Perhaps that was wrong. I talked to some of the Miracles players, and they mentioned that there were basically two camps. One that advocated siding in RiP against us and one that advocated against it. I felt I should side in Charms for game 3 if I saw RiP. Decay seemed better overall. And siding in Charms for the one-of Verdict seemed bad in my mind. On the other hand, my first Miracles match I kept both Stalkers, and had to spend a Decay on a RiP in game two. Never got to finish that game though, so I don't know what would have happened, but Charms could have been good in that game.

The thing is, Miracles never really became a big thing in NL. It seems to have gained in popularity very recently, and yesterday was my first time ever that I played against it competitively. And I immidiately faced it twice. Time for me to figure the matchup out. :wink:

About my sideboard: I used to play 3x Disfigure and 1x Submerge, but I expected a lot of Patriot, so that's why I switched to 4x Disfigure. But right now I think I should go -1 Disfigure, +1 Liliana. Lily is just the more versatile card, and it takes over midrange matches like a maniac. The 4x Pierce is because in NL we tend to have more combo than usual. Both Storm based and Show and Tell based. I didn't encounter any this time, but I do feel the four Pierces are good. Also, if I side out Dazes, I want to add other blue stuff. The u-count is 20 in the main deck, so cutting on blue makes FoW bad. Funny thing to mention: the Miracles match I won, in game two I drew all four Pierces. I countered a Counterbalance, a Jace and Force of Will and I pitched one to my own Force. They seemed good. But it's true they never hit removal.

So much for my explanations. Let's say you're right and I need to cut both a Disfigure and a Pierce. Which two cards would you suggest I add?

[Esper3k]

Yeah I'd only bring in Charms for AD if you suspect they took out CB against you since it'll kill RIP and has some added value vs Supreme Verdict (I do like that Miracles is playing less Verdict these days).

I think Tombstalkers should always come out because even if you don't get hit by RIP, 'Stalker is still not very good in the matchup (comes out slower than Goyf, same weaknesses, wrecked by Jace).

Instead of 4x Spell Pierce right now, I'm playing 2x Spell Pierce, 1x Flusterstorm, 1x Envelop (which can come in against Miracles).

I know some people have been playing Null Rod to help with Miracles. Pithing Needle seems fine too. Artifact/Enchantment answers are great vs them since they aren't going to bring in those types of answers against us (and if they do, we're super happy).

[Barbed Blightning]

Working on reassembling this deck (considering the price tag, not an easy feat). What have to ask, however, is if Bob is widely accepted--and if Tombstalker has finally gone out of vogue.

[Esper3k]

Working on reassembling this deck (considering the price tag, not an easy feat). What have to ask, however, is if Bob is widely accepted--and if Tombstalker has finally gone out of vogue.

Depends on what you want to fight, I'd say. Generally from what I've observed, those two slots are usually either Tombstalker, Bob, or TNN.

Here's the pros/cons as I see them:

Tombstalker: best against the non-white, non-combo decks, ie: Jund, RUG, BUG variants, Nic Fit (try Deeding that guy away!)
Bob: great vs combo, ok vs control, bad vs Aggro
TNN: bad vs combo, good vs control, good vs aggro, worst of the three on your manabase

[Asthereal]

@Barbed: I still love Stalker. Last tourney I failed, but the two before I went top-8. Stalker is a different card, and represents a different style. Stalker just finishes games quickly. Confidant draws cards that in turn should win the game for you. It's more of a long term thing. The only thing right now that might draw me towards Confidant is that everyone seems to be siding grave hate against me these days. That does make Stalker suck ass every now and then.

@Esper: maybe you're right about siding out all Stalkers. In the second Miracles match I kept one because I felt I wanted as many threats as possible, but indeed Jace laughs at the demon.

The reason I run the full list of Pierces is that Pierce is the most versatile from the three. Having a one-of Envelop in your hand when the opponent casts a Silence or Sneak Attack makes me want to rip my hair out. Fluster already has more applications, but that also doesn't stop Sneak Attack. Or Blood Moon, for that matter. I feel being consistent, but consistently weak against 6+ lands, is better than running the risk of having the wrong spell at the wrong time. It also reduces the chance of misplaying, because you know what to expect. But do you side in Envelop against Miracles? It only counters Terminus. An important one, granted, but still a one-of against one playset from the opposing deck? Seems risky.

Do you run Peedle or Rod in your sideboard? Or do you still have the Tar Pit? That also seems like an option. Right now by the way, I decided to go -1 Disfigure, +1 Sylvan Library on side. Sylvan is an absolute gem against all midrange and control, and I've been running into a lot of that lately. :smile:

[Myelectronicdays]

im still a huge fan of stalker over confidant.

[Water_Wizard]

The disruption suite makes Combo match ups a pure joke: the mix between 11 Counterspells and 5 Discard seems excellent to me. Also, I need the high spell count to reach threshold quickly for Mongoose. Sometimes, resolved Goyfs can be an issue - but still 4 main deck Goyf removal seem way better than in RUG.

Any thoughts? What is the reason BUG-people give no love to Nimble Mongoose?


I brought this up as I identified this as the Tempo thread, as opposed to the Midrange/Contol Thread in the "Established" section. We rather designed bUrg similar to Canadian, i.e. RUG splashing black for (up to two) Decay, Deathrite Shaman and better sideboard options. Our focus was always keeping the curve extremely low. My whole point is bringing up a new style of BUG with a lower curve and a wider variety of disruption than burn and RUG.

I play this deck in a very reactive fashion. Nimble Mongoose is not an early game creature in the original sense. It is brilliant after a few turns when thresh is established. Check it out, YamiJoey, it does not compete in any way with Thoughtseize: In the early turns, I deplete my opponents' gas. When the coast is clear, I drop a threat, protect it and beat him dead.

I think that the reason Nimble Mongoose is used less in BUG (as opposed to RUG) is twofold:

First, RUG hits threshold more quickly. With Stifle and Lightning Bolt, graveyards fill up more quickly.

Second, BUG has other strong finishers. RUG is limited to Delver, Goyf, and Mongoose. With BUG, you get DRS, Goyf, Dark Confidant, Tombstalker, and TNN. Therefore, you have other bodies that can close out the match.

RUG is also in love with 1 cc spells, whereas BUG ventures in the 1-3 cc range.

[Barbed Blightning]

@Barbed: I still love Stalker. Last tourney I failed, but the two before I went top-8. Stalker is a different card, and represents a different style. Stalker just finishes games quickly. Confidant draws cards that in turn should win the game for you. It's more of a long term thing. The only thing right now that might draw me towards Confidant is that everyone seems to be siding grave hate against me these days. That does make Stalker suck ass every now and then.

@Esper: maybe you're right about siding out all Stalkers. In the second Miracles match I kept one because I felt I wanted as many threats as possible, but indeed Jace laughs at the demon.

The reason I run the full list of Pierces is that Pierce is the most versatile from the three. Having a one-of Envelop in your hand when the opponent casts a Silence or Sneak Attack makes me want to rip my hair out. Fluster already has more applications, but that also doesn't stop Sneak Attack. Or Blood Moon, for that matter. I feel being consistent, but consistently weak against 6+ lands, is better than running the risk of having the wrong spell at the wrong time. It also reduces the chance of misplaying, because you know what to expect. But do you side in Envelop against Miracles? It only counters Terminus. An important one, granted, but still a one-of against one playset from the opposing deck? Seems risky.

Do you run Peedle or Rod in your sideboard? Or do you still have the Tar Pit? That also seems like an option. Right now by the way, I decided to go -1 Disfigure, +1 Sylvan Library on side. Sylvan is an absolute gem against all midrange and control, and I've been running into a lot of that lately. :smile:

I agree with your Spell Pierce argument; part of why I am returning to BUG (over, say, UWr, RUG or Jund) is the versatility of it's spells. Golgari Charm (a card I have always thought highly of) has applications in many matchups; likewise, other cards we run should reflect this, like Pierce.

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

[Esper3k]

@Barbed: I still love Stalker. Last tourney I failed, but the two before I went top-8. Stalker is a different card, and represents a different style. Stalker just finishes games quickly. Confidant draws cards that in turn should win the game for you. It's more of a long term thing. The only thing right now that might draw me towards Confidant is that everyone seems to be siding grave hate against me these days. That does make Stalker suck ass every now and then.

@Esper: maybe you're right about siding out all Stalkers. In the second Miracles match I kept one because I felt I wanted as many threats as possible, but indeed Jace laughs at the demon.

The reason I run the full list of Pierces is that Pierce is the most versatile from the three. Having a one-of Envelop in your hand when the opponent casts a Silence or Sneak Attack makes me want to rip my hair out. Fluster already has more applications, but that also doesn't stop Sneak Attack. Or Blood Moon, for that matter. I feel being consistent, but consistently weak against 6+ lands, is better than running the risk of having the wrong spell at the wrong time. It also reduces the chance of misplaying, because you know what to expect. But do you side in Envelop against Miracles? It only counters Terminus. An important one, granted, but still a one-of against one playset from the opposing deck? Seems risky.

Do you run Peedle or Rod in your sideboard? Or do you still have the Tar Pit? That also seems like an option. Right now by the way, I decided to go -1 Disfigure, +1 Sylvan Library on side. Sylvan is an absolute gem against all midrange and control, and I've been running into a lot of that lately. :smile:

It's an interesting philosophical difference in SB cards. Of course Spell Pierce is the most versatile, but it's also the least backbreaking as opposed to more specific hate cards. I like having a few haymakers for each matchup since with 4x Brainstorm / Ponder, there's a decent chance you'll see it in any given matchup.

From my experience with the Miracles matchup, the key spells to stop are Sensei's Diving Top, Terminus, and their game winners (Jace, Entreat). Top is very powerful and allows them to mitigate our discard but a resolved Top isn't a guaranteed immediate backbreaker. If they get to resolve Terminus against us, that is usually going to set us very far behind unless you've been sandbagging guys in your hand. So while Envelop is narrow, I like it more than Spell Pierce since it's a hard counter against Terminus/Entreat.

I don't play Needle or Null Rod right now because I'm still playing 2 TNN in the main so I have a little more of an edge vs Miracles than the normal Tombstalker / Bob builds.

[Zilla]

This thread is closed. Please continue discussion on this deck in the new Primer thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27874-DTB-Team-America-(BUG-Delver)) for it.