[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

[nitewolf9]

These are a few of the dicier matchups:

Ichorid
Geddon Stax (not as bad as you would think though)
Zoo/Sligh (close but you're behind)

For Ichorid, boarding out snuff outs for crypts, and sinkholes + 1 daze for edicts and 2 grips for needle seems to be the plan of choice. Keeping hands with cantrips seems solid as the deck finds tormod's crypt well and they slow down post board. You pretty much stop them cold or they get going and win.

Geddon stax has a lot that is bad for you (chalice, 3 sphere, crucible) but you can stop them because they are inconsistent and you run lots of disruption. Post board grips come in for 2 stifles and a snuff out (snuff out is good for dealing with magus and angel if they run it, magus being the more important target). You need to keep the blue count up for force so a couple of stifles need to stay in. They are also randomly good at stopping wasteland or a flagstones activation if they are low on white.

Against Zoo or Sligh you have to leave in a couple of snuff outs, and with the new board of 2 reanimante you bring those in along with edicts, and blasts if you are facing sligh. Try to stick to 2 lands, 3 max against sligh to avoid massive damage from PoP. Zoo just runs a lot of creatures and removal, and it can get hard to finally go aggro on them, but their manabase is shaky. Dark confidant is a problem if they run him, so try to stop that guy. Sligh only has one good creature in tarmogoyf, so stop that guy and play more of your own and you'll win. Reanimate is good here. Tombstalker is also nuts in both matchups.

CB Threshold is very close depending on their build, but I do generally feel ahead post board. Overall it's very close to 50/50 for Ugw. Ugr is a bit worse if they run blood moon, a bit better if they don't. 4c+ is better for you. Generally you want to bring in grips and edicts for sinkholes and stifles, but against the 4 or 5 color builds sinkholes probably stay in (cutting a few snuff outs).

[aTn]

Theoretically, if Klaus were to win another couple of events with that exact list and sideboard, that would be a compelling point in his favor.

On the subject of tournament results (I'm simply curious): at what events did the original TA (i.e. first post of this thread) list top8 ?

@Deep6er:

I'm not attacking you or your card choices by testing other options for the deck.

I have made no claims of optimality concerning these card choices (doing otherwise would be pretentious and very hard to verify - depending on how you define optimality).

The only claim I made is that these choices have worked in my testing/tournament play so far.

If they ever fail me, for reasons you mentioned or other reasons, be sure I'll revert to the original list.

I'd be interested and curious to hear about your tests versus DS and Moon Thresh.

[Sims]

On the subject of tournament results (I'm simply curious): at what events did the original TA (i.e. first post of this thread) list top8 ?



Top 4 of the 127-person The Source 5-year Anniversary tournament.

[aTn]

Top 4 of the 127-person The Source 5-year Anniversary tournament.

Thanks, but that's where I found out about the deck (i.e. I was aware of that result).

I was asking about other tournament results (w/ original list).

[Deep6er]

@ATN: Well, as soon as there is another tournament for us to play it in, then we'll be sure to let you know. As it is, we have quite a bit of testing data, and that's definitely important too. Remember, the Source tournament was only a month ago. You have to give us time to play it in more events.

I understand that you're not attacking me, nor have I claimed that you have. If I come off as angry, it's misinterpreted. I'm not. I'm vehement at times, but only in the hopes that I can prove my point clearly and eloquently. If I were angry, the post would have been significantly different. I'd show you the others, but they've all been deleted/modified, so all I can tell you is that if I'm angry, you'll know it.

Our testing against Dragon Stompy and Moon Threshold is limited at best. Both of those decks aren't meta game concerns, and we felt it was more important to get around to the decks that are seeing more play than either of those. We'll probably get around to it in the future, but since neither of those decks is tearing up the tournament scene, it's not high on the list. I'll be sure to let you know how they go, but we don't have the same kind of extensive data on those as we do on something like Goblins or Threshold.

@Klaus: The dicey match ups are basically what Dan said. However, I would also add that I don't feel particularly confident about the Affinity match up. It's not a huge deal, but it's there nonetheless. Especially with the new additions of Master of Etherium and Ethersworn Canonist. Fortunately, it's not like that deck is tearing up the Top 8's either, so whatever. I'm not particularly happy facing any deck that doesn't aim to "play fair". If a deck is capable of playing as many spells in the early turns as Team America (with the exception of combo decks), then I don't like it. Team America is more oriented on defeating the decks that "play fair" by generating unfair amounts of tempo. Fortunately, most decks in Legacy "play fair" so the match ups that I worry about are pretty rare.

[aTn]

You have to give us time to play it in more events.

No problem, I totally understand.


I understand that you're not attacking me, nor have I claimed that you have.

I understand, no harm done, I just wanted to specify that I'm still in experimental mode with TA.


Our testing against Dragon Stompy and Moon Threshold is limited at best. Both of those decks aren't meta game concerns

I understand; in my meta these decks tend to be rather present, so that's why I'm testing stuff like adding 1-2 basic lands at the expense of losing -or slowing down- color availability in other match-ups.

If I think I have any relevant things to say about DS or Moon Thresh in the future, I might post again in this thread; but right now I think I'll go back to testing and reading your (and others') tournament-testing results.

P.S.: Thanks for creating ITF, I just picked it up this week and went to a 36 player tournament with little or no testing done and liked the deck A LOT !

[aTn]

Here are my current thoughts about the DS match-up (playing the original TA list, see post 1 of this thread). All this is probably very obvious (and I find my post pretty idiotic while reading it for the second time). The only point I make is that the situations I describe come up very often in testing-tournament play (in my experience anyhow).

Pre-board:

I tend to keep my counters for Magus of the/Blood Moon, since the resolution of either one early-game usually ends the game in DS’ favour.

These two cards are usually my main Thoughtseize targets (with a few exceptions depending on the game state).

The fact that the deck doesn’t pack a single swamp can’t make you fetch it pre-emptively (in order to resolve a "free" Snuff Out after a resolved Magus). Of course, putting 3B in your pool in response to them casting Magus is great, but a rare feat (of brilliance or stupidity, depending on the outcome of you keeping 3B open).

DS players that are used to playing the TA match-up might want to bait your counters (CotV is usually scary and a good way for them to bait you) in order to eventually resolve a Moon effect, falling into that plan doesn’t seem like a good idea.

I’ve actually won a lot of game 1s for this match-up by simply letting them resolve CotV (@1,2), countering Moon effects, and resolving 1-2 Stalkers.

If the DS player goes more for a “fast-fatty” gameplan, either because his hand dictates that or because he’s not used to playing the TA match-up, then I consider myself lucky --- and usually win since 4 Thoughtseize + 4 Snuff Out (+ Countermagic) are good creature management tools. If you’re fortunate to be able to resolve a turn 1 (or 2) Thoughtseize, things will probably be set in your mind as to which route the DS player will take.

Post-board: -4 Stifle, -4 Something Else (I usually take out the Sinkholes on the draw, but I’m still testing different scenarios for these 4 slots), -3 Snuff Out, +4 Grip, +4 BEB, + 3 Edict.

To me, Edict is more efficient against Magus – assuming it’s their only creature - putting 1B in your manapool in response to them playing Magus, letting Magus resolve and then casting Edict is pretty common early-game. If they have more than one creature on the board, then Edict is crap to get rid of Magus. But then again, Snuff Out would also be crap to get rid of Magus (unless you have 3B to spare in response to them casting Magus – which doesn’t happen very often).

Again, packing no basic lands means you need to be wary of Blood Moon (the deck probably packs 4 copies now if the DS player knows how to SB) and Magus.

CotV@1 is a clear play for them if they want to shut down a big part of your SB plan, it’s really up to you to check the game state (your hand in particular) to see if resolving BEBs is a must for you to win or not.

[mackaber]

Why would you ever stifle a vial activation, unless you were going to win the very next turn and wanted to preemptively eliminate a blocker? Stifle is ridiculous against goblins because it can "counter" matron, ringleader, and sgc even if they have a ramped up vial on the table, in addition to being mana denial and wasteland protection. This, along with the fact that you're suggesting EE or deed to "fix" that matchup, makes me question your experience. We've tested against that deck many times, and I've played against it in tournaments with success; I'm still pretty sure you're ahead. Goblins just isn't the powerhouse it once was thanks to the efficiency of threats like tarmogoyf and tombstalker, and cards like thoughtseize. It's just so slow and you're strategy is great against them.

Oops. Misformulated that. I meant countering the addition off counters during upkeep. It's actually often just as good as killing a land you should try it. And just to make this clear I was never advocating playing EE maindec. Altough if I were to run 2 I would board them versus gobs yes. Also I did support the claim that the MU is okay I just have lost to first turn vial more often than I have won.

Something else I've noticed is that I hate going second with this dec against anything. Do either Klaus or Nitewolf have any Data on the number dierolls you won during those big events?

[frogboy]

It's actually often just as good as killing a land

Uh. The only situation I can think of where that might even be accurate is getting it moving from two to three and I'm pretty sure you'd want to be doing something else with your mana that turn given how awkward it would be if you made them leave it on two and they went and Matroned up their second Piledriver or something.

[mackaber]

Uh. The only situation I can think of where that might even be accurate is getting it moving from two to three and I'm pretty sure you'd want to be doing something else with your mana that turn given how awkward it would be if you made them leave it on two and they went and Matroned up their second Piledriver or something.

Since you usually have information about the contents of their hand due to thoughtseize there are actually a lot of situations where stifleing the vial can be better than stifling a fetchland especially if you have dazes in hand that u can then use properly. It's all a matter of propper planning. And yes of course it's terrible to stifle a vial trigger but sometimes it's what you gotta do.

[Tao]

I've not played magic for a half year and now came back here to read me into the Meta. And this is the best and most innovative deck made on TS in a long time. You should win a CANG contest with it retroactively. The list is so awesome and straight that I cant believe it is posted on TS ;)

Since the list on page 1 is so awesome I really can't contribute anything to the thread. Hymn and Extirpate have already been proven as inferior choices. Any changes that can be made are either in the SB or they are Meta calls. So the only purpose of this post is to congratulate you on this brilliant deck and I am sure to see it in the DTB Forum soon.

[Guevera59]

Hey all,

Mostly, I merely float around the forums without posting but after playing with TA, I feel as if I have to say something.

This deck is incredible and perhaps one of the most fun decks I have ever played. My favorite archetype is SUI black, alas, they tend to be horrible against combo and the majority of the meta. TA does everything Sui does and more.

My only input after a good amount of testing (though obviously less than Deep6er's and Nitewolf9's) is that I feel that we should play more Bloodstained Mire's and less Flooded Strands. Every game, I want more black mana than blue or green and Strands inability to fetch for a Bayou is detrimental to my game plan. I play the same list as the one in the opening post except:

-2 Flooded Strand
-1 Tropical Island

+3 Bloodstained Mire

Thanks for the deck and let me know if I am terribly wrong or no :)

G59

P.S. Quick stifle question, can I stifle dredge?

[mackaber]

-2 Flooded Strand
-1 Tropical Island

+3 Bloodstained Mire



This seems reasonable the only problem I see is that you then only have 2 real green sources left in the dec. Has this ever been a problem for you at all? Overall Bayou seems better than Trop but somtimes you need a trop if you have multiple cantrips stifles and a goyf early on.

[aTn]

P.S. Quick stifle question, can I stifle dredge?

No, Dredge is a static ability - not a triggered or activated ability.


* 502.47. Dredge

o 502.47a Dredge is a static ability that functions only while the card with dredge is in a player's graveyard. "Dredge N" means "As long as you have at least N cards in your library, if you would draw a card, you may instead put N cards from the top of your library into your graveyard and return this card from your graveyard to your hand."

o 502.47b A player with fewer cards in his or her library than the number required by a dredge ability can't put any of them into his or her graveyard this way.

[rancOr_]

@Deep6er/Nitewolf9:

Have you got any data from testing against the Loam Mu's ?
And how did u change the Sb for adding Reanimate?
The mainboard is awesome, dont think anything can be changed there.

[nitewolf9]

The board we're trying:

4 tormod's crypt
3 hydroblast/BEB
3 krosan grip
3 diabolic edict
2 reanimate

I don't think we've done much testing against aggro loam, but from playing against it alot with eva green I can make an educated guess as to how the matchup works. Snuff out is amazing, and so is tombstalker. You can easily out tempo them, but that being said they have a lot that is bad for you (chalice is bad, and alot depends on their removal suite). Dreams isn't really too much of an issue for TA, since they'll have to really overcommit to kill anything of yours and if you play smart with your lands it's hard for them to manascrew you. However, if it gets to the point where they are recurring wastelands and you haven't killed them yet then you are in trouble. Crypt is bad for aggro loam, don't listen to anyone who tells you otherwise. So is blast and edict. The trouble comes in how you board, because you have a lot that could come in. Killing terravores with stalker + crypt is also kind of amusing.

[DalkonCledwin]

So me and a few friends are working on coming up with a variation of the deck that doesn't deal with the disynergy of Tombstalker + Tarmogoyf (I never really liked that issue, and don't know how often it comes up)... but the version I have come up with so far is as follows:

// Lands
4 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
2 Scrubland

// Creatures
4 Tombstalker
4 Spectral Lynx

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Sinkhole / Hymn to Tourach

don't really have a working sideboard yet, and not really sure what to put into it. But the deck looks pretty solid, just not sure what the match ups will be as of yet. Also I think the numbers for the mana base are far more solid than the numbers for the mana base in the original deck.

[Jak]

Cool, no testing done but already making (bad) changes. Tombstalker will hardly ever affect Goyf, since, you know, Goyf gets its P/T from BOTH yards. OH! I forgot, you get to pick the cards you want to remove! That still might shave off a little P/T, though :(, so lets change it to a 2/1!

[DalkonCledwin]

Cool, no testing done but already making (bad) changes. Tombstalker will hardly ever affect Goyf, since, you know, Goyf gets its P/T from BOTH yards. OH! I forgot, you get to pick the cards you want to remove! That still might shave off a little P/T, though :(, so lets change it to a 2/1!

actually, Tombstalker can also remove the entirety of your graveyard... if you wanted it to. And yes, I have actually shaved off like 2 or 3 points with a tombstalker against an opponents goyf by doing this. And simply removing 6 cards, will in fact likely remove at least 1 point from goyf.

Additionally it is a 2/1 with protection from green and regeneration. That means it can block just about anything, even a gigantic goyf... and live to tell about it!!!

Also so far as I know this variation on the deck is simply a hypathetical at the moment. As I have no intention of building it any time soon (not sure about either of my friends). However I wanted to see what others thought about it.

[darkalucard]

I don't think we need to even explain why Tarmogoyf > Spectral Lynx in this deck...

[Nydaeli]

Additionally it is a 2/1 with protection from green and regeneration. That means it can block just about anything, even a gigantic goyf... and live to tell about it!!!

This is not even close to what Team America wants to be doing.

Your disruption is geared toward gaining an advantage in the early game, which you use your creatures to capitalize on. As such, they need to be capable of winning the game before your opponent can recover. Spectral Lynx is just a bad stalling tactic.

[DalkonCledwin]

This is not even close to what Team America wants to be doing.

Your disruption is geared toward gaining an advantage in the early game, which you use your creatures to capitalize on. As such, they need to be capable of winning the game before your opponent can recover. Spectral Lynx is just a bad stalling tactic.

I do agree, it is a bad stalling tactic. However I do not personally like the issues raised by the relationship between Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker. These two cards in my personal opinion should never be played with each other. For one thing, you have to hold back when you play tombstalker by not removing your entire graveyard, in order to give your tarmogoyf food with which to grow bigger. Meanwhile this same fact allows your opponents tarmogoyfs to grow bigger at the same time. I would much rather be able to simply remove my entire graveyard at a moments notice (unless I had 2 Tombstalkers in hand which is even more disynergetic than a tombstalker & tarmogoyf, and possible when playing 3+ Tombstalkers)... even still, if I had two tombstalkers I would probably still remove my entire graveyard. This is made even more awkward by the inclusion of tormod's crypt in the sideboard. If you play Tormod's Crypt, removing your opponents graveyard, then play a tombstalker removing your graveyard... then try to play a tarmogoyf (or had played one previously) that tarmogoyf is going to be worse than my Lynx....

Simply put Tarmogoyf + this deck simply is not in my opinion the most optimal card choice in existence. In fact I would say the only true reason to run green over white is not Tarmogoyf, but rather Krosan Grip!

[Nydaeli]

You'll likely win more games based on Tarmogoyf being broken than you'll lose based on Goyf and Stalker being a bit anti-synergistic.

Phyrexian Negator or Sea Drake are probably your best bets if you really, really don't want to play Goyf.

[Tao]

There is no replacement for Goyf. Negator and Sea Drake are too slow at 3 Mana. Using your Dazes and Wastelands would make it take too long to be played. Spectral Lynx is just bad in this deck. If you hit for only two per turn your opponent will have many turns to recover from your disruption.

There is no Stalker / Goyf problem. There will ~always be a land, a sorcery or instant and something you Thoughtseized/Dazed/Snuffed Out in your opponent's yard. At ~95% Goyf won't be smaller than 3/4 and ~80% it won't be smaller than 4/5.

[URABAHN]

Cathal, these "issues" you describe between Tombstalker and Tarmogoyf do not exist. You are imagining things. The scenario you describe when you Delve your entire graveyard, then Crypt your opponent's yard just so you can shrink all Tarmogoyfs to 1/2 is awful. I'd rather have a 1/2 Tarmogoyf than Spectral Lynx.

[nitewolf9]

Plus, people still seem to be forgetting the fact that you don't just stop playing spells after tombstalker comes down. Also, spectral lynx, are you serious? I thought this was a joke at first but...man. This guy isn't a threat at all. Actually play the deck a few times and you'll see there is no problem whatsoever with running them both.

[quicksilver]

So me and a few friends are working on coming up with a variation of the deck that doesn't deal with the disynergy of Tombstalker + Tarmogoyf (I never really liked that issue, and don't know how often it comes up)... but the version I have come up with so far is as follows:

// Lands
4 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
2 Scrubland

// Creatures
4 Tombstalker
4 Spectral Lynx

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Sinkhole / Hymn to Tourach

don't really have a working sideboard yet, and not really sure what to put into it. But the deck looks pretty solid, just not sure what the match ups will be as of yet. Also I think the numbers for the mana base are far more solid than the numbers for the mana base in the original deck.


I like your list, but I don't really like how you always want to keep as much black open as possible to regenerate spectral lynx and the fact that tombstalker costs double black. Here is a list that looks pretty solid to me.

// Lands
4 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
2 Scrubland

// Creatures
4 Rootwater Thief
4 Spectral Lynx

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Sinkhole / Hymn to Tourach

[NQN]

.

[bruno_tiete]

Quicksilver, please use [irony] tags next time.

[aTn]

Cathal83, it seems like you're adressing a problem that doesn't exists; the creature base in TA is excellent - from testing I don't see one reason that would make me change it. What are you trying to improve by changing the creature base ? (I'm trying hard to keep an open mind here).

[Guevera59]

Also, even if there was some disynergy between Goyf and Stalker, it happens often that you only play one beater to win. You rarely play both Stalker and Goyf at the same time and if you do, there is an interval between playing both creatures that allows you to refill your yard with spells like Nitewolf9 mentioned earlier.

[irrelevant]

I have been playing and testing this deck for about two weeks now, played in two weekly tournaments finishing 1st and 8th. i have been having a problem were i keep good disruption hands only to create good tempo and loose because of to few threats. Allowing my opponent to climb back in with good draws or a resilient decks. I will usually land a goyf or a tombstalker and have it killed or countered and then not draw anything else. Has anyone else been having a problem with this? maybe i just need to mulligan a little more aggressively.

[FoolofaTook]

I have been playing and testing this deck for about two weeks now, played in two weekly tournaments finishing 1st and 8th. i have been having a problem were i keep good disruption hands only to create good tempo and loose because of to few threats. Allowing my opponent to climb back in with good draws or a resilient decks. I will usually land a goyf or a tombstalker and have it killed or countered and then not draw anything else. Has anyone else been having a problem with this? maybe i just need to mulligan a little more aggressively.

You should expect to have this issue, there aren't a lot of threats in the deck and it doesn't have a guaranteed cantrip base to get to them. Eva Green is much more consistent because it has twice the number of threats, however it also has the problem that a control deck that flips it has won the game, whereas in theory Team America can go blow for blow with control decks after the mid-game is reached.

[Mister Agent]

So me and a few friends are working on coming up with a variation of the deck that doesn't deal with the disynergy of Tombstalker + Tarmogoyf (I never really liked that issue, and don't know how often it comes up)... but the version I have come up with so far is as follows:

// Lands
4 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
2 Scrubland

// Creatures
4 Tombstalker
4 Spectral Lynx

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Sinkhole / Hymn to Tourach


Sounds like replacing tarmogoyf with protection from green is a oxymoron.

[Enigma]

I laughed @ Quicksilver post :laugh:

Please someone tell Deeper66 that this extirpate-like creature is the best for his decks.

[raharu]

I laughed @ Quicksilver post :laugh:

Please someone tell Deeper66 that this extirpate-like creature is the best for his decks.
I didn't really find Quiclsilver's post all that hilarious (just funny, I chuckled), but I just about peed on myself at that.

[BreathWeapon]

Man, thank you for making a deck that'd dust off my Sinkholes, this deck is everything I wished Threshold was and I wouldn't change a thing.

[electrolyze]

@dave or dan,


The Dutch legacy championship is upcoming sunday and its gonna be my first tourney with this deck and i have some trouble with boarding against threshold.

What should i take out against counterbalance thresh for 3/4grips and 3 edicts?

Against other threshold i board out sinkholes but against counterbalance thresh i have to board in grips too.


And how can i board the best against loam(even gbw as gbr)? Do i need the edicts and tormod crypts in this mu? And what about grip against assault and stuff, as well as blue elemental blast or hydroblast :laugh: My whole side can work in this mu but thats idiot to board the whole side in against a mu i can win even without.

Can you help me a bit?



Thanks, bas

[quicksilver]

Please someone tell Deeper66 that this extirpate-like creature is the best for his decks.

Oh that reminds me, you should be playing at 4 'pates, in the sideboard at least, maybe mainboard if you can find room. They really complement the root water theif nicely.

[nitewolf9]

electrolyze: Against threshold with this board the plan is generally -4 sinkhole, -2 stifle for +3 grip, +3 edict.

Stifles are left in primarily to keep the blue count higher than 16 for force, but that might not be a good enough reason to leave them in. I might even suggest just going +3 grip, +3 edict, +2 reanimate, for 4 sinkholes and 4 stifles.
That seems a bit better.

As for aggro loam, that matchup is tough to board for. You probably want to bring tormod's crypt in for sinkhole, and probably want to cut 3 stifles for 3 beb/hydroblast. Other than that, the last stifle can come out for an edict or a reanimate. Reanimate is probably more important than edict here actually. If they have chalice you are forced to bring in grip however, and you might have to cut something like thoughtseize for them. I'm not really sure. Reanimate is probably stronger than discard and edict might be as well. On the play thoughtseize is great at stopping things like chalice though, so it is a real balancing act. Dazes can come out on the play instead of thoughtseizes for the grips, but watch your blue count (try not to dip below 16). Daze is still pretty strong but if you have a metric asston of removal it is really hard for them. The build of the loam deck will prioritize your sideboard cards accordingly (ie. obviously no bebs against gwb loam, no grips for chalice-less builds that run something like swords instead, etc.). Make sure you don't walk into devastating dreams against the red builds (that card shouldn't be a problem, but the armageddon effect is still dangerous if they catch you without a counter or a big guy in play). Generally try to keep the colored lands in play to about 3 max, unless you are building up to hardcast force in order to protect a threat.

Hope that helps. Good luck at the tourney.

[darkalucard]

$%#@&

[frogboy]

The joke is no longer funny. Back on topic.

[Nihil Credo]

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k292/NinjakZ/dead-horse.gif

Joke has run its course. The next sarcastic poster gets a shiny stamp on his profile.

EDIT - LOL Ninjamod'd.

[Happy Gilmore]

It has been discussed at length, and I don't think there is another viable threat for the deck. You could make an arguement for Sea Drake but I wouldn't suggest it from personal experience. Although it is not big you could run River Boa.

The better answer in my oppintion is to have more ways of finding your threats. Fitting 2x SDT is something I have wanted to try. Cutting a Sinkhole and ?

[raharu]

It has been discussed at length, and I don't think there is another viable threat for the deck. You could make an arguement for Sea Drake but I wouldn't suggest it from personal experience. Although it is not big you could run River Boa.

The better answer in my oppintion is to have more ways of finding your threats. Fitting 2x SDT is something I have wanted to try. Cutting a Sinkhole and ?
I was thinking something along the lines of Portent and/ or Impulse (instant speed for the win?), but you're totally right, if anything could be altered it'd be adding a few cantrips or draw manipulation cards. I wouldn't have the first clue as to what could come out, though :3 The list is wayyy to tight.

[FoolofaTook]

I was thinking something along the lines of Portent and/ or Impulse (instant speed for the win?), but you're totally right, if anything could be altered it'd be adding a few cantrips or draw manipulation cards. I wouldn't have the first clue as to what could come out, though :3 The list is wayyy to tight.

What do you hate topdecking on turn four in most games? What do you hate having two of in the opening hand? Odds are that's the same card and you can cut it down to three without suffering too much in the process.

I don't play the deck so I don't know what the answers are but I'm betting Stifle is one of them.

[Soulles]

A quick question about the the ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh hold boarding.

Is boarding out stifle a wise choice? I mean if you are on the go with stifle. Isn't that an automatic win vs ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh hold that plays not many lands but allot of fetch?

[johanessen]

I come with a card i`ve been testing, creature, i think it can full what deck needs:

http://magiccards.info/lw/en/133.html

3/1 Flying for 2.
The oponent wont discard lands (we have a lot LD so he wont do) neither cards (obviously).

Also, it has sinergy with Tombstalker (we can discard lands or dead spells after attack) for stalker food

What do you think?

Maybe is not good as Tarmo, but remember it flies :D And it`s black!!

[Swing4Five]

The deck's mana denial strategy generally leaves the opponent with a hand full of dead cards, making Oona's Prowler beyond weak (not that it would even be played in the deck if the discard ability wasn't two sided).

[URABAHN]

What do you think?

Maybe is not good as Tarmo, but remember it flies :D And it`s black!!

I think it's terrible, so do you apparently if you don't think it's as good as 'goyf. Why are Black and Flying relevant? Do you honestly think those are good reasons to play it instead of 'goyf?

[johanessen]

I think it's terrible, so do you apparently if you don't think it's as good as 'goyf. Why are Black and Flying relevant? Do you honestly think those are good reasons to play it instead of 'goyf?

Who said instead? I thought we were searching for another creature to add but nothing was to good as tarmo or stalker.... we tried sea drake, serendib ef, etc

[aTn]

Did anyone test the Aggro Loam match-up ? If so, what were your SB strategy and overall impressions ?

@Poona's Owler:

In testing and tournament play I never found the deck to be too light on threats. Even so, Oona's Prowler... bah... seriously, I don't get it, are we still in "sarcasm mode", cause if so, I'll suggest splashing white for Benalish Hero to solve the ground stall problems that occur when two Goyfs stare each other in the face (EDIT: Oh yeah, Tombstalker already takes care of that, never mind my suggestion).

Seriously, even if I swallowed enough lego blocks to fart in perfect pitch, Oona's Prowler would still die to Mogg Fanatic and half of Fire-Ice, which would be insulting. Enabling an Ichorid or Loam player to discard what he wants would be even more insulting. Should I continue ? Cause I just drank two Red Bulls and I think I could.

[electrolyze]

I've tested against 2 kinds of loam now, rg aggroloam and that new 5c loam that get good results in germany.

Against rg loam, I get it very good managed to get rid of all their threats in time(vore, crusher, goyf, assault) but dreams can be really annoying, assault too btw.

But i won this mu still with 2-0, i boarded:

-4sinkhole
-4stifle

+2blue elemental blast
+2edict
+2reanimate
+2krosan grip

Maybe cut the grip because only assault is that scary and put an extra edict and blue elemental blast in it.

and against 5c loam I won 2-0 too, although it were very close matches. G1 I'm managed to get an early tombstalker and only countered the things that could stop my stalker(confinement, dreams, assault, stp) And that won me the game.

g2 i boarded:

-4 sinkhole
-4 stifle
-1 snuff out(cause he played confidant, dont know if this is any good)

+3 tormod's crypt(he was more relying to loam then rg loam.
+2 krosan grip
+2 reanimate(this thing rocks against loam that its not normal anymore)
+2 diabolic edict

This game was very exciting because i got many threats liek crusher, goyf and dark confidant. crusher and goyf both got a snuff out. The bob stayed alive for the rest of the game, but actually I was happy about that because i speeded up my clock:laugh: He got the loam thing going on and he had tabernacle and glacial chasm and stuff. Luckily i had 2x tormod's crypt.
It ended up with him having chasm to stall and i had an tombstalker, he was only at 4 so i only needed to finf an wasteland an kill him, I still had an ponder so i founded the wasteland and killed him. This game was very excited becuase i didnt say it, but he played an dreams for 3 in this game with me only having 3 lands, and he had an tabernacle. But i recovered very fast after this dream thanks to the cantrips and i could reanimate an old stalker from me with only 1 land what was enough for tabernalce.

[dahcmai]

Well, I tried this today and I have to say I was impressed. I have played Eva Green, Threshold variants, and similar stuff, but I like how this little deck comes together in an efficient package.

It's very aggressive with the amazing ability to not have a draw you really don't want to see other than multiple Tombstalkers and even sometimes in those cases I wasn't sad to see that. It feels similar to a Vintage deck in the amount of disruption it has.

Thoughtseize, Sinkhole, Wasteland, Stifle, Daze, and FoW make for one hell of a beating on most decks. Any deck I faced today that was of a good build, it tore to peices in nothing flat. It made me smile all day.

We had a small turnout, but at least it was high powered.

First round was a Survival build (good deck, but inexperienced player). Games all ended with nothing in play on his side and no cards in hand one game. No contest. It wasn't even nice. I kind of felt bad since his draws were good, I just trumped him everytime. Survival, Force, Survival, dazed, Waste, waste, sink sink, Tombstalker, commence to beatings was pretty much the scenario.

Second round was a Pikula style deck. It gave me some trouble, but for the most part it was a one sided fight and only got worse after the board. He had no answers for Tombstalker in the first game and didn't topdeck one in the second. The Dazes really got the best of his early hymns.

Third was Vaca Pox. Very back and forth of discarding and LD. Ponder and Brainstorm made sure I was the winner of the topdeck fest both games.

Fourth was Gobbos. No contest oddly enough. I expected to lose this since the deck doesn't exactly have much way to deal with Aether Vial or Lackey coming out quick and there's very little removal short of the Snuffs. Anyway, it turned out he went first and played a first turn Vial. Crap. Luckily, he had a 3 color manabase (We have a ton of combo in the area so it was for Teeg out of the SB) so I went to town on the duals with wastes and Sinks. He ended up having to play off that vial the whole time. I dumped a Goyf, and proceded to topdeck into three stifles and stifle the vial over and over to victory. When he finally drew a land in the middle of that, he ended up finally seeing the Dazes.

Second game was about the same except he didn't get the lacky or Vial. He mulled to 6 and kept a Vial and Lacky free hand for some reason. I mowed over him.

Semis:

ANT - I knew this was fairly 50/50 since we had played a few fun games earlier to see how Team America played out and he was getting used to the combo and still testing the deck.

First game was quick, he went for the nuts and slammed into force right after an Infernal tutor with Lion's eye response. Burn and Gofy cleaned up.

Second game he kind of hurt himself more than I did. He miscal'ed the amount of mana he had and accidentally screwed himself hard. He had hit me with an early Duress and left me with a Force so he knew I had it. (he took a Thoughtseize to preserve his hand). When he tried to play around the Force it ended up being a little short and he stalled.

Finals:

Somehow by this time the two Dreadstill decks were taken out and all that remained was the Pox deck again. I was kind of happy to hear that. I wasn't sure how well this deck did against Dreadstill, but I bet it's not that favorable considering how alike the two are.

Anyway, I split the cash with the pox player since it was really back and forth the first time and I'd rather be sure of some cash. We played for the points. It pretty much went same as before and Ponder and Brainstorm pulled me out when he went into topdeck mode same as me in both games.


So I won and took home some good spending money and a few more points for the record. Not a bad day.


Love the deck. I'll be terrorizing people next week with it in my eternal attempt to catch up to Brian DeMars in points for state. heh, I'm right behind you bud.

[Dr.AgOn]

I tested a bit on MWS and I really like the deck. The only disadvantage are the tons of duals. I understand that you need lots of duals in a 3 color deck and it's better to still have a dual instead of a basic land left if one of your other lands get wasted, but what the heck am I supposed to do, if my opponent resolves a Blood Moon or Magus of the Moon??? Even the crucible wasteland soft lock is pretty harsh. I played against painter a couple of times and always lost 2-1

can someone tell me what to do against decks like painter, red deck wins, dragon stompy and those decks playing magus of the moon/blood moon.

[Tao]

I tested a bit on MWS and I really like the deck. The only disadvantage are the tons of duals. I understand that you need lots of duals in a 3 color deck and it's better to still have a dual instead of a basic land left if one of your other lands get wasted, but what the heck am I supposed to do, if my opponent resolves a Blood Moon or Magus of the Moon??? Even the crucible wasteland soft lock is pretty harsh. I played against painter a couple of times and always lost 2-1

can someone tell me what to do against decks like painter, red deck wins, dragon stompy and those decks playing magus of the moon/blood moon.

You are not the control deck. If they come through your disruption with their key card and you have nothing big on the board so far that kills them, then they deserve the win. Accept it.

But you have 20 early disruption spells (LD, Daze, FoW, Seize - plus Cantrips to find them) to prevent that. Playing random solutions or Basic Lands will just weaken your deck in general.

[klaus]

You are not the control deck. If they come through your disruption with their key card and you have nothing big on the board so far that kills them, then they deserve the win. Accept it.
I enjoy winning, even if my opponent may deserve it more than I do.



Playing random solutions or Basic Lands will just weaken your deck in general.
Adding a basic Island (multiplying by x8/x9) is such a minor change, yet it makes several MUs (read:Moon.dec, B2B.dec, LD.dec) that much better, does not seem like a weak change at all, don't you think?
The drawback of the undesirable case that it is the only land in your starting 7 is tiny compared to the edge it grants you in the MUs mentioned above.

[dahcmai]

Stifle the Painter's cip effect, it helps immensely. There's not much they can do after that. Board in the Grips and have a heyday. Just try and keep mana open so you can stop things before they fall into place.

As for blood Moon, you literally just have to try and have the counter handy or mana open to grip it and float the mana. It's not fun, but winnable. Luckily Dragon Stompy is not fond of Snuff out at all.

[frogboy]

You can't Stifle a Painter. "As this comes into play" is not a triggered ability. "When this comes into play" is.

[Tao]

Adding a basic Island (multiplying by x8/x9) is such a minor change, yet it makes several MUs (read:Moon.dec, B2B.dec, LD.dec) that much better, does not seem like a weak change at all, don't you think?
The drawback of the undesirable case that it is the only land in your starting 7 is tiny compared to the edge it grants you in the MUs mentioned above.

What are you afraif of LD? You have Daze, Thoughtseize, Fow against Spell LD and Stifle against Wastelands.

And what kind of threat do you want to play with one basic land into a Blood Moon?

What makes you think that you are even remotely able to beat MUC if they already have B2B out and you are not killing them, only because you can untap a Basic Land each turn?

If your Meta is full of Magus of the Moon a single Swamp may be justified to Snuff it out but that's it. A basic Island will not get you anywhere because with it you can't play Sinkhole or Stalker.

[NQN]

It´s just a really good fetch-target against Wasteland and Price of Progress.decs.

[electrolyze]

Hey people, i just come back from the dutch legacy champs and i made it to the t4 with the deck:cool: There were about 140 people there so im happy with the result.

these were my mu's:

1, gbwr survival 2-0
2, gbw the rock 2-0
3, 4cstill 2-1
4, goyfsligh 2-1
5, tes 1-2
6, eva green 2-0
7, deadguy rock 2-0
8, id

t8:

painterstone combo deck, 2-0

t4:

fahad muc(with sower and kira and stuff, really bad mu cause they steal everything) 0-2

I am really, really impressed by the deck and this was the first time i played it in real life so im really happy about it:laugh: Thank you Dan, Dave, Anwar and the rest for making again such an insane deck after eva green.

I will write an bigger report for the tournament section later, im too tired now(10 hour non stop magic is killing me)

greets, bas

[Illissius]

Congrats.



t4:

fahad muc(with sower and kira and stuff, really bad mu cause they steal everything) 0-2

Was it this guy (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/member.php?u=4516)?

[dahcmai]

You can't Stifle a Painter. "As this comes into play" is not a triggered ability. "When this comes into play" is.


Ah nice to know, I don't own any so I haven't had the chance to really read it. Good thing I knew that before I had to play it and had a sad face for it.:cry:

I guess that means you really have to rely on Daze, Thoughtseize, and FoW all of a sudden. That still doesn't sound too bad at least.

[Happy Gilmore]

Just a thought, but you could try specter, god knows you have enough black sources to support it.

[nitewolf9]

We kicked that idea around for a bit, but I'm not really sure what to cut for more threats. I think specter would be good here even without ritual since there is so much the deck wants to do on the first two turns anyway. But the problem is where to put him. I don't like the idea of cutting a sinkhole because I generally want to see that card in multiples, and that's the only card I could see cutting (maybe along with a stifle, but that's also a card you want to see as early as you can).

Maybe in the board, instead of the reanimates, but I think reanimate is a solid card to bring in against aggro decks and versatile against control. Specter would definitely make the TES matchup a bit easier. You're ahead but not by as much as if you played counterbalance. Still probably bad to board for a deck that you are significantly favored against, and the only other deck hyppie is going to be better than reanimate against is control (also not an archetype that gives TA too much of a problem).

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I ran this deck at the Grand Prix Atlanta event yesterday to an ok 3-2 finish. The night before i tested against Epic Painter, Counter Slivers, Survival, URW Dreadstill, and Dragon Stompy, only losing 2 games to Epic Painter and a game to survival.

My list:
4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
4 Snuff Out
4 Sinkhole

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou

Sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Krosan Grip
3 Diabolic Edict

Just standard Team America list.

Round one i was paired against agro loam, which in my opinion is already a terrible matchup due to the fact that they recur land and run 26. Game one he resolved a Terravore midgame and i had no answers of any kind so i scooped when he attacked for 17 twice. Game two, i got lucky and he got land screwed, i wasted his green source after i had thoughtseized revealing two loams. He burning wished for a chainers edict and got my tombstalker. I untap and play another tombstalker and pass. He freaking devastating dreams for five destroying all of his lands and every land that produces mana in my deck except my last bayou, and my Tombstalker as well. I untap, draw a bloodstained mire, fetch bayou, and goyf him to death. Game three he gets chalice at one, double goyf and seismic assault and i proceed to scoop when he is loaming twice a turn.

Round two i play against affinity. Nothing too special here. Game one i either wasteland or sinkhole his relevant colored lands. Tombstalker and goyf take it home. Game two he gets like 4 frogmite, myr enforcer. I start to stabilize with triple goyf and get lightning bolted for the loss. Game three i force anything relevant, and draw double goyf through cantrips, and win.

Round three i play against some weird mono green stompy deck. He plays a bunch of shroud creatures game one but i still overpower with triple goyf. I have to stifle a rancor this game too haha. I board in edicts here and take out his two creatures he gets all game, which consist of kavu predator times two. Double tombstalker takes it home.

Round four i play against UGR Dreadstill. Epic games those were. Game one we were both in topdeck mode and he gets me with stiflenought. Game two it goes back and forth for a while until i have out every land in my deck. I play dudes and attack through his hand of nothing. Game three he stifles my fetch, plays goyf, i am down a green source but have two goyf in hand. I topdeck bayou, play goyf, he spell snares. Then drops another goyf. I get nothing relevant and then on his next turn stiflenought comes down to join his team of double goyf. I lose.

Round five i play against some random burn/sligh deck. Game one i stabilize at 7 life with tombstalker and goyf. Game two he plays magus of the moon on his turn three, and i dont have an answer. Game three, i waste his taiga and keep him on 2 land. He apparently has a hand of three drops, and i win with dudes. He reveals boil in his hand after the game and i laughed so hard. I love boil vs blue.

This deck is amazing, and i dont care how many games i lose i still love it.

On a side note, quirion ranger is a bitch to deal with when your hand consists of land destruction. I pretty much scooped against survival the night before when he got that loop going. Masticore, rofellos, and a million mana kills goyfs or so i've heard.

[Happy Gilmore]

I wouldn't be too unhappy about that performance. The only matchup that was truely difficult was agro loam. Although a relsolved Stalker might just destroy that deck, not sure. The dreadstill matchup is still probably 50-50. Did 4-1 make it in?

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I wouldn't be too unhappy about that performance. The only matchup that was truely difficult was agro loam. Although a relsolved Stalker might just destroy that deck, not sure. The dreadstill matchup is still probably 50-50. Did 4-1 make it in?

Yeah i'm not too dissapointed. I mean i lost to aggro loam fair and square, and the Dreadstill guy i lost to, i rode down with, and he made top 8, so it's all good.

And in the Dreadstill game he had like the perfect hand game 3. I completely got demolished. He ran divert in the MAINBOARD!! It was his secret tech and it did well for him haha.

[dahcmai]

Quick question, what does this deck do against Dredge? I noticed today that it doesn't have much of a plan really. Stifle isn't useful against much of anything, Sinkhole is limited, Discard doesn't matter too much, and it barely plays any spells to counter while on top of that your clock is a lot slower.

So is it just an insta lose? I haven't had the chance to play against Dredge with this yet, but I saw one today in the tournament and couldn't think of much you could do to stop them. About the best you have is Snuffing your own Goyfs to remove some bridges. Am I missing something?

I take it you're literally relying on those Crypts?



I also found out today this deck absolutely hates mono-black control style decks. I managed to run into two of them and they tore me to pieces since I couldn't cast a creature and keep it on the board through all the mass removal. They would just slowly get out of Daze and Sinkhole range and kill everything that hit the table. I'm going to be running 4 Compost to deal with this since it was so obvious I wouldn't be able to get through the removal without a huge edge.

[Happy Gilmore]

Yeah i'm not too dissapointed. I mean i lost to aggro loam fair and square, and the Dreadstill guy i lost to, i rode down with, and he made top 8, so it's all good.

And in the Dreadstill game he had like the perfect hand game 3. I completely got demolished. He ran divert in the MAINBOARD!! It was his secret tech and it did well for him haha.

lol, yea Divert is a beating lol. For both Thoughtseize, Snuff out, and Sinkhole...ouch..


Quick question, what does this deck do against Dredge?

Yea, crypts are the main thing, and technically you could also bring in reanimate, which I saw a friend destroy Damon with because he reanimated his only dredger. Thoughtseize is your primary tool, and will buy you a lot of time. You would also take out Snuff outs I think for some # of Edicts. Crypts are versitile enough to be brought in against other matchups, but are primarily for GY dependent decks. Dredge isn't common enough to warrent more than 4 sb slots, other matchups are more important. Besides, in tournament I watch dredge lose to some of its best matchups because of inconsistency. In testing I couldn't win more than 2 games out of a ten game set against the deck. But in tournament I've faced it 4 times and won each time (2-0 twice!) with Threshold. And theoretically this deck may have a slightly better matchup (mostly because of stifle).

[Clark Kant]

A while ago, I put together a deck very similar to the list in the opening post...

It played...

4 Tombstalker
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

4 Brainstorm
4 Vision Charm
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
4 Snuff Out
4 Sinkhole

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
3 Island
3 Swamp

Vision Charm combos to help you cast either Tombstalker or Dreadnought, and can even protect a Dreadnought from removal, bounce, and destroy effects by temporarily phasing it out. It can even help you out when you're color screwed and serves as Force fodder.

One clear advantage is that this allows you to consistently rely on basics when possible and play Back to Basics in the board if neccesary. In addition, Dreadnought is a stronger beater than Tarmogoyf. With the cards you run, you have an easy time protecting a Dreadnought for two turns long enough to win, but might have difficulty protecting something Goyf for the 4-5 turns you need to (assuming no chump blockers on your opponent's side). You're also dependent on fewer colors.

I'm wondering if such a build shouldn't be given more consideration.

If you really want to play Goyf, it could potentially be splashed for into the above build as well. Vision Charm does combo with Goyf as well. But if you opt to go in that direction, the deck should also probably make room for lightning greaves, giving all these massive threats both shroud and haste (thus speeding up your clock by a full turn while saving your countermagic from having to protect your threats is nothing to scoff at).

[klaus]

A while ago, I put together a deck very similar to the list in the opening post...

Not trying to be a mod or anything, it's just that we have a threat (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10307) for that approach already..

[Clark Kant]

Yep, that's the one.

Is there any clear cut advantage to splashing a completely different color, and getting rid of all basic lands to play what is a slower, and less evasive essentially worse threat than Dreadnought? I saw some discussion on playing Dreadnought as a 1 of back five pages ago, but never really about using it as a primarly threat.

More people are playing token producers (including that new planeswalker), chump blockers and regenators as a way of essentially stopping the nontrampling Goyfs indefinately.

Yes, it requires more of a setup, but I personally think having a smoother mana base, winning a lot faster, and not having to worry about blockers makes up for the setup.

Or even better yet, finding a way to play with this as your threat base...

4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Lightning Greaves
1-2 Volrath's Stronghold

[Mantis]

Eh yeah there is one advantage, you don't have to play jank like Vision Charm. And you won't suffer from extreme card disadvantage with Dreadnought.

Oh and resolving a Planeswalker against TA? Good luck with that! If you manage to get up to 4 mana then also play around Daze and Force and TA only has one Goyf on board and you also have buisiness in hand you should be winning regardless as TA has failed.

[Illissius]

Is there any clear cut advantage to splashing a completely different color, and getting rid of all basic lands to play what is a slower, and less evasive essentially worse threat than Dreadnought?

Yeah, you get to use your Stifle on your opponent's fetchland instead. If Dreadnought is a 12/12 trampler for :1::u:, then Goyf is a 5/6 with "counter target fetchland". (Also no chance of a dead Dreadnought if you don't draw Stifle). I like both decks, and both approaches have their advantages.

This said, even if it's not right for the maindeck, what about sideboarding the Dreadnoughts along with some Trickbinds or Charms to just completely beat the poop out of aggro decks?

[Clark Kant]

That sounds like a cool idea. You can board it in against aggro, decks without fetchlands, and even combo and ichorid (replacing Snuff Out) to speed up your clock.

I see your point. This deck strikes me as UG Dreadstill but with the Standstills, 1 Trickbind/3 Mage and Dreadnoughts replaced with Sinkhole, Snuff Out and Tombstalker. So I guess LD is really key here.

[Fossil4182]

Mainboard:

1 Bayou
4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Duress
4 Snuff Out
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island

Sideboard:

4 Pernicious Deed
4 Krosan Grip
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Diabolic Edict

I decided to go with a list inspired by Signorini's list. The Hymn was a meta choice as I found that while Sinkhole is great against Threshold but most of the other decks in the meta around me are going to be more hurt by hand destruction. I also found that Wasteland and Stifle are more than enough land destruction, at least in my meta. I liked Thoughtseize in the deck, however I found that when I was going Fetch, Thoughtseize and then Snuff Out a few turns later that it was way too much life to be paying. Thus Duress was chosen as an alternative. Pernicious Deed was added to the sideboard because of how much it improved the match up against swarm decks like Zoo, Goblins and Elves; all of which can be problematic if allowed to developed. Anyway, here's the report.

Round 1 Team America (Ya, hit the mirror match round one...sigh)

Before going into the report for the match, our builds were different in that he was running something that was closer to Better Than Threshold. He was running maindeck Engineered Explosives, Spell Snare and Pernicious Deed's. Game one my hand opened with Gofy x2, Tombstalker, Ponder, 2 Fetch and Stifle. I Stifle his fetch on his opening play. I was able to drop a Goyf which he Snuffed Out, however I was able to drop Gofy again on the next turn and dropped Tombstalker on turn 5 and he couldn't find answers. Game Two developed a little slower but saw the same pattern develop. He was able to Thoughtseize me out of FoW but I was able to Stifle one of his lands early. Turn five comes around and he resolves two Goyf's which are 4/5's. I have no removal in hand. The next turn I'm able to resolve a Tombstalker. He decides to pass the attack phase. At the end of his turn, I Brainstorm revealing 2 Diabolic Edicts and a Snuff Out. I take the Snuff Out and Edict putting two other cards back on top. I'm able to kill both of his Goyf's and proceed to beat with Tombstalker.

Round 2 Elves

I let him resolve the one drop. However, I'm able to counter Talara's Battalion and then resolve Hymn to Tourach which takes his Sylvan Messenger. Next turn I'm able to drop Goyf and proceed to beat which ends the game in quick order because he isn't able to recover. I side out Duress for Deed. Game two I'm able to turn two Hymn which takes out a Sylvan Messenger and Talara's Battalion. Next turn he drops 4 different Elves, however I topdeck a Pernicious Deed and the game ends fairly quickly as he runs out of steam.

Round 3 UGw Threshold

I realize that if I'm going to win, I need play aggressively. We roll and he wins opening with Nimble Mongoose. I'm able to Duress him and take FoW. Next turn he attempts a Goyf, but I'm able to Daze it. The next turn turns we develop hands as I Ponder and he digs for a third land. He draws into a fetch and attempts to search, but I Stifle. He then drops a Goyf which I don't have a counter for. However, I topdeck a Goyf of my own and resolve it. He passes on his turn. I Brainstorm at the end of turn and see Tombstalker and Snuff Out. I take the Snuff out and cast it killing his Goyf and then next turn resolve Tombstalker which he can't answer. Game two goes goes off like it ought to. He plays and passes the turn. I go dropping an Underground Sea and Duress him which he Brainstroms in response to. I ended up taking his FoW leaving him with a Goyf, two Brainstrom plus other. The next turn he casts Goyf which I let resolve, however I cast Hymn on my turn and he doesn't have a Daze. I pass to him and he doesn't topdeck anything helpful. He attacks with Goyf and I cast Snuff Out and he doesn't have an answer. Next turn I resolve Tombstalker and take control of the game.

Round 4 Zoo

I finally win a roll, and opted to go first. Drop a fetch for Underground Sea. He attempts to fetch which I Stifle. Next turn I drop another Underground Sea and Hymn which takes out another land. Next turn he passes without any land. I'm able to stabilize with Goyf a few turns later and by the time he sees land, he can't get back into the game. Game two I side in REB and Deed. He starts off quick with Wildcat and Kird Ape and Goyf by turn three along with a Bolt to the head, however I'm able to drop Deed and then blow it the following turn leaving me at 7 life. He runs out of steam and and I'm able to drop Tombstalker and Goyf and proceed to beat face for the win.

Finals: Rbg Goblins

I don't remember a lot of this match. However, Stifle and Wasteland keep him from dropping his Goblins outside of Lackey which I Snuff Out. I dig with Ponder and Brainstorm and drop two Goyfs which end the game fairly quickly. Board out Duress and Daze for REB and Deeds. I loose game two because he's able to do what Goblin's does best. I FoW the Lackey, but he drops Vial on turn two and proceeds to win. I don't see Deed which was problematic. Game three my opening hand has Deed and two REB and Wasteland. I keep and bait him to over committing then blow the deed on turn four. I waste his black source on the board which ends up cutting him off. The following turn I drop Goyf and topdeck a second one which he can't answer.

Post Event Wrap Up:

Ended the day 5-0 and matches where 10-1. Hymn turned out the be the correct meta choice. Knowing that it was an aggressive meta meant that selecting a card that attacked the hand was a better call because most aggro decks have trouble refilling their hands, especially if you're able to take out their draw conditions. Thoughtseize vs Duress wasn't really an issue. I can think of only two instances today where being able to take a creature would have been helpful, however the loss of life would have made a difference in one of those games. Stifle and Wasteland are great for land destruction. The major weaknesses I found was in sideboard choices. I found it difficult to sideboard in a few of the matches, especially Threshold. I think Crypt in the board would be a good choice in the future. I also found that the deck lacks card advantage. However, I had that concern going in. Either way, I think it might just be a weakness of the deck structure. However, I think its a great deck and would play it again.

[Spare Parts]

Hmm, what about Encroach? I'm not proposing it as a "must play" piece, but still - it merits some thought as a possible two-of. It may be junk ... well, it most probably is a junk.
I will give it a try today and let you know afterwards, even though I am not expecting any wonders.

[nitewolf9]

I will give it a try today and let you know afterwards, even though I am not expecting any wonders.

Let me save you some time: it's garbage.

[Wargoos]

Participated at a local tourney yesterday and ended up 4-1.
Here's my decklist:

Maindeck:
3 Snuff Out
1 Sea Drake
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder
4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Brainstorm

Side:
2 Pithing Needle
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
3 Krosan Grip

My MU were:

1. Landstill
2-0

2. Dreadstill variant with GrindstoneCombo
2-0

3. RGw Beatz
0-2

4. Vial Goblins
2-0

5. Aggro Loam (with swanscombo - wtf?!)
2-1

I ended up 3rd with 4-1. The Aggro Loam Dude took 1st due to a better Opp Score.
The Hymns were just great. Won me the games vs. dread- and landstill.
The Sea Drake was of course too random and was often pitched into FoW.
I guess 8 Beater are enough and the Drake should become a Snuff Out again - the card is just great in this deck, it just wins against loam and gobs.

[Spare Parts]

Let me save you some time: it's garbage.Too late... I found it out on my own :D
It was nice to occasionally punish "1land 2brainstorm" draws from opponents while on the play, but it is too situational to rely on and rest of the time Encroach was just dead weight in hand. And guess what - Worst Topdeck Ever(tm)!
At least late game Stifle still has some uses (FoW fodder, suspend counter, equip delayer)... well, don't ever try Encroach ever again ever.

EaD: congrats on the finish, how was Relic in the sb? Is it worth the extra mana investment? Pithing Needle in particular interests me, in which matchups does it shine? Is it there primarily to turn off SDT and/or Vial?

[Illissius]

Somehow, I don't think Relic of Progenitus in this deck is the right idea. Granted, it does have somewhat better synergy than it would in Aggro Loam.

[Wargoos]

Somehow, I don't think Relic of Progenitus in this deck is the right idea. Granted, it does have somewhat better synergy than it would in Aggro Loam.

I definitly would agree but:
Removing our own grave keeps our stalker away and weakens the goyfs, sure.
The thing is, it's just so much better vs. loam-based decks than crypt (killing those nasty vores/ taking witness targets) plus it totally wrecks dredge.

So against the bad matchups, i guess, it shines.

[nitewolf9]

Relic is bad in this deck. Crypt does everything you need it to do: wrecks the decks you mentioned without neutering your ability to cast stalker and making tarmogoyf a weenie.

[Whit3 Ghost]

Relic is bad in this deck. Crypt does everything you need it to do: wrecks the decks you mentioned without neutering your ability to cast stalker and making tarmogoyf a weenie.It's also way better when you need to dig for it ASAP.

[Wargoos]

Convinced.

I was a bit jaundiced of relic for playing it in other decks and knowing it's power - especially against aggro loam (crypt can't kill a vore alone).
But it's kinda too situative and rly just slightly better than crypt in this mu.
Crypt should be better overall for being cc0, indeed.

[jericohs@cottage]

It's me again.

I've noticed many top 8's recently and all of them were running some variations of hymn de tourach and sinkholes. Are the pros up to something here. I'm sorry for bringing this up but I have to say that the versions with Hymn are posting nice results.

I seem to remember having an argument a while back with the opp. who wouldn't even consider it in the mainboard claiming that it would take away from the overall LD synergy. So how do you like them apples???

Hymn rocks you guys never gave it enough credit.

Also, i'd like to congratulate the top 8 finishers who included hymn de tourach.

;-)

[Peter_Rotten]

It's me again.

I've noticed many top 8's recently and all of them were running some variations of hymn de tourach and sinkholes. Are the pros up to something here. I'm sorry for bringing this up but I have to say that the versions with Hymn are posting nice results.

I seem to remember having an argument a while back with the opp. who wouldn't even consider it in the mainboard claiming that it would take away from the overall LD synergy. So how do you like them apples???

Hymn rocks you guys never gave it enough credit.

Also, i'd like to congratulate the top 8 finishers who included hymn de tourach.

;-)

One, post without that attitude. It is neither clever nor convincing. Two, post some links to support your claims. I'm sure fans of this deck would be interested in seeing those lists.

[jericohs@cottage]

Peter rotten i've missed u.

Look at tournament reports from starcitygames and deckcheck.net, only two legacy reporters on starcity so its not that diff to miss. the articles aren't premium so they're free. Would you like me to read them for you? Oh wait; warning lol? They've been popping up here and there for the past two weeks.

some builds have been running:
3 x hymn
1 x sinkhole
while others, go for the 2x2 split

Now, some of these top eight finishers are no-names in small tourney's while others have names with some weight and posted nice results in 40-60 person tourney's.

[Peter_Rotten]

Oh wait; warning lol?

No. Banning. Bye.

[Peter_Rotten]

Of the six decks that I could find, one of them ran Hymn as a two of. I could not find any other lists running Hymns. http://www.deckcheck.net/deckvergleich.php

Maybe someone could show quote or link a list that I missed that would be relevant to proving Hymn as a worthy inclusion. I'd also like to note that out of the 6 decks I found, there were more Phyrexian Dreadnoughts in those lists than Hymns.

[Nihil Credo]

Of the six decks that I could find, one of them ran Hymn as a two of. I could not find any other lists running Hymns. http://www.deckcheck.net/deckvergleich.php

Maybe someone could show quote or link a list that I missed that would be relevant to proving Hymn as a worthy inclusion. I'd also like to note that out of the 6 decks I found, there were more Phyrexian Dreadnoughts in those lists than Hymns.
There's a total of two decks on DeckCheck running a combination of maindeck Hymn to Tourach, Force of Will, and Tarmogoyf. One is the one you listed (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21685), the other is this (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21664) (4 Hymns instead of Sinkholes, 1x Sea Drake over a Snuff Out).

It's worth noting that the decks placed 1st out of 13 and 3rd out of 17, respectively.

[rsaunder]

It's worth noting that the decks placed 1st out of 13 and 3rd out of 17, respectively.
It sort of makes me sad that tournaments like this get the results posted online. Tournaments with this kind of attendance can happen in small towns on a weekly basis and mean next to nothing.

[kabal]

Of the six decks that I could find, one of them ran Hymn as a two of. I could not find any other lists running Hymns. http://www.deckcheck.net/deckvergleich.php

Maybe someone could show quote or link a list that I missed that would be relevant to proving Hymn as a worthy inclusion. I'd also like to note that out of the 6 decks I found, there were more Phyrexian Dreadnoughts in those lists than Hymns.

There is also this one here (Team Europe) (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21700) that essential ran Spell Snare instead of Sinkhole

[Brehn]

It sort of makes me sad that tournaments like this get the results posted online. Tournaments with this kind of attendance can happen in small towns on a weekly basis and mean next to nothing.

Syff decklists doing well in bigger tournaments would always be optimal. Your attitude makes me sad.

[Arsenal]

If I was running an ultra budget version of this list, would -4 Sinkhole +4 Hymn/Spell Snare, -4 Goyf +4 Tog, and -4 Krosan Grip +4 Wipe Away be a reasonable substitute? I realize that running budget will weaken the deck, but will those substitutes at least be competitive? Or should I just not try at all until I get all the "real" cards?

[yankeedave]

I don't see why you cant sleeve it up and test it out. It wont be TA, it will be an odd version of Tog, and it wont be as good, so don't expect the same results. Why not do some testing and if you experience issues, do a post in N&D forums, as it isnt really TA? Just a suggestion.

[Illissius]

-4 Sinkhole +4 Hymn/Spell Snare

Reasonable.


-4 Goyf +4 Tog

Pretty bad, but maybe livable. Tog will conflict with Stalker a lot worse than Goyf does. Look around for other options, but obviously Goyf is pretty hard to replace.


-4 Krosan Grip +4 Wipe Away

Bad idea. Krosan Grip is an expensive card? Either way, use something which gets rid of stuff permanently. Seal of Primordium, Deed, goddamn there has to be another Naturalize with a CMC over two which doesn't need :g::g: but I can't think of it, or whatever.

[Arsenal]

Reasonable.



Pretty bad, but maybe livable. Tog will conflict with Stalker a lot worse than Goyf does. Look around for other options, but obviously Goyf is pretty hard to replace.



Bad idea. Krosan Grip is an expensive card? Either way, use something which gets rid of stuff permanently. Seal of Primordium, Deed, goddamn there has to be another Naturalize with a CMC over two which doesn't need :g::g: but I can't think of it, or whatever.

Well, Krosan Grip isn't expensive, but since I'm not going to run green, I'd need a substitute for that slot.

[Illissius]

Oh. I totally didn't notice that. I still think Wipe Away wouldn't be good enough to board in against the things you ostensibly want it against. But obviously U/B doesn't have many ways to permanently deal with artifacts or enchantments. (There's, um, Disk.) I think you'd have to try a different tack (Duress/Snare?), or concentrate your energies elsewhere.

EDIT -- Oh and after actually engaging my brain cells, the correct replacements for Tarmogoyf and Sinkhole are Phyrexian Dreadnought and Vision Charm (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10307).

[Swing4Five]

Dreadnought isn't really a "budget" replacement...

[Illissius]

You're right. I have no idea how much cards actually cost. Shrug.

[rancOr_]

Has Hymn to Tourach been discussed in the sideboard yet?
I think the sideboard could look something like the following:

3x Krosan Grip
3x Tormod's Crypt
3x Blue elemental blast
2x Reanimate
4x Hymn to tourach

This gives u a better matchup against control based decks.(MUC - This isn't a great MU,and hymn can help alot here).
The edicts in the board were okay,but u alrdy win the ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh MU,and Diabolic Edict isnt really helping here if they play counterbalance anyway,since u can easily win with a resolved Tombstalker.

What do you think about this? I know it is quite meta-game dependant,but I
don't really feel like the edicts are an absolute auto-include in this deck's SB.
Reanimate is in my opinion superior vs. loam etc, and Blue elemental blast can help take care of goblins.
Against the really heavy aggro MU's like Zoo,goblins,slivers,goyf sligh.. I try to mana screw them first as they dont have such a solid manabase,and counter some threats.

Another option that might be decent is sideboarding like 3Dreadnoughts,and board em in against decks were ur LD is less effective.(Ichorid,Mighty-Quin,.. X random rogue deck with a lot of basics).
Then u can just brainstorm/ponder T1,and play a Dreadnought for the win turn 2-3, as they will never have any arti-destroy in at that time( K-grip,..)

Thoughts about this?

Greetz

[Happy Gilmore]

The matchup against Thresh is not nearly as easy as you make it seam. The 5c list at least can give TA problems, Daze, Mystic Enforcer, and Toughtseize are all incredible. And if CB hits, even without a Top the game is usually over. With the high # of cantrips that thresh packs it can find multiple land, enough to get through 2 and possibly 3-4 Ld effects. When all is said and done the matchup ends about 50-50 preboard against 5c. And Dan has informed me that the UGR canadian lists put up about the same #s (although the games are much more swingy then in other matchups). Diabolic is necessary I think, answering Enforcer, Goose, an opposing Stalker, and a lot more.

[Wargoos]

Hey guys.
Participated at the Rostocker MKM tourney again and performed quite well.
Officially i went 3-3, but i let a buddy win the 6th match cuz he would've a better chance for a dual.
So i went 4-2 you could say and this were my matchups:

Match1: Grindstone.dec
This was supereasy, his deck hasn't showed much and i beat him 2-0.

Match2: Dredge
Yuk! Bad MU.
I lost the first game as expected, though my secret tech went well: i stifled a bridge trigger instead of the dread returned cephalid. Nice play, right? ;)
G2: I win cuz i manage to find 3 of my 3 extirpates and beat him down with goyf.
G3: Quite the same as in g2, i just needed less extirpates.

Match3: RGW Nacatl Sligh
A pretty bad MU again :(
After the first game i was prepared gettin my first loss but it went different.
I manage to 'hole hist manabase and beat him with the quick Stalker.
The 3rd game was even more ownage since i killed all his critters and played a stalker having 4 blast protection while he had one card in hand.

Match4: Table1. As expected. Naw, kidding. Opp was Raffinity and he killed mit 1-2. Both times with a pretty fast clock. I wasn't even able to cast 1 Grip. Lame.

Match5: UWb Landstill piloted by my teammate.
Lost 1-2, but i drawed like shit in this match anyways.

Match6: UWb Landstill with Vindicates.
Argh. Facing a buddy again - i hate that.
Well this match was hilarious easy.
Won 2-0, beat him in game one with 2 one/one Goyfs.
The second game ended and he had no mana in play. Neat.
Well since i would've gone 4-2 and my buddy 4-1-1 with a victory in this match i let my buddy win due to a better chance for a dual.

The list i played was quite standart TA with
-1 Snuff out , +1 Krosan grip in the MD and
-3 T. Crypt , - 2 Reanimate , + 3 Extirpate, +2 Needle.

I just can't get enough Crypts =(

Luv this deck.
So far~
EaD

[Arsenal]

Now that this deck has plenty of tournaments under it's belt, how is the Threshold matchup, both the controllish builds (UGW) and the tempo builds (UG, UGR)?

[Blitzbold]

The MU against tempoish Thresh (both UGb and UGr) is quite tough as they have a similar disruptive approach. Spell Snare is really good at taking care of Sinkholes and such.

[DalkonCledwin]

Won 2-0, beat him in game one with 2 one/one Goyfs.

Just because I am curious... how did you get goyf to become a 1/1??? shouldn't he always be at least a 0/1 or a 1/2? Unless he was hit by a permanent -0/-1 effect???

[Wargoos]

Well since i was playing against landstill goyf was a 1/1 for a reason: humility.
=p

[DalkonCledwin]

Well since i was playing against landstill goyf was a 1/1 for a reason: humility.
=p

ah... I see... I had completely forgotten about that card >.<

[Mister Agent]

I think hymn to tourach in the board is pretty bad. I mean TA already runs cards like thoughtseize, daze, and force of will which should be plenty. Also sinkhole costs the same as hymn but proves to have a more relevant effect in this deck in terms of mana denial strategies.

Besides casting a second turn sinkhole as oppose to a hymn to tourach is a much better play for the deck as is. Especially since you have force of will, daze, and snuff out for backup. Another note I would like to address is, Diabolic edict seems far superior to hymn to tourach as well which is relevant if you ever plan on winning the mirror or against other goyfaggrocontrol variants.

Not to mention that hymn to tourach still doesn't address the counterbalance issue on a consistent basis.

[nitewolf9]

The MU against tempoish Thresh (both UGb and UGr) is quite tough as they have a similar disruptive approach. Spell Snare is really good at taking care of Sinkholes and such.

I like my odds against UGr considering they're paying burn and I'm playing removal that actually kills tarmogoyf. Also, tombstalker vs nimble mongoose is seldom a fair fight.

[GtF]

Hey, I played this deck in a local legacy tourney on Saturday and it was as awesome as advertised. I considered making all sorts of stupid changes to it beforehand but most of them were avoided, the only things I ended up changing were -1 snuff out and -1 sinkhole for +1 spell snare and +1 reanimate in the main. It seemed like if you don't get a threat on the table early enough, all your disruption just doesn't help you win, and since you often counter/thoughtseize away opposing goyfs or whatever, I figured reanimate would be great. It actually was pretty good. Thoughtseizing a meddling mage and then reanimating it naming a swords that was in my opponents hand was probably my favorite use for it on the day. As for the snuff out, it's great but not something I want to draw a ton of, as the life loss is kind of a pain. Spell snare was decent, but not amazing. I do like having another blue spell in the deck though.
The SB was 3 grip, 3 hydroblast, 4 crypt, 1 reanimate, 2 diabolic edict and 2 hymn. The hymns were for control decks, but ultimately probably weren't necessary and should be something else. Not really sure what though.
matchups were:
2-0 vs belcher
2-0 vs WGU threshold
2-1 vs. Scepterchantstandstill control (probably there's some clever name for this decktype but I just started playing legacy)
ID
ID
in T8:
2-1 vs. loam (I think I got pretty lucky here as he never saw a loam in games 2 and 3, and I managed to brainstorm into ponder into wasteland for his glacial chasm for the g3 win)
2-0 vs. UGR counterbalance threshold
I split the finals with the scepterchant deck from r3. Since there were an odd number of duals being distributed, we played for the first pick of the 5 nonallied ones and he absolutely demolished me. Swords to plowshares is a real beating against this deck since it plays so few threats and your dazes will likely never counter it. Still, I beat him in the swiss so the matchup probably isn't as one-sided as it seemed in these games.
The deck is really fun and once you're ahead it's hard to lose. If you fall too far behind though, it is virtually impossible to win. Fortunately with all the awesome cards in the deck, it's easy to get ahead and stay there.
The hymn slots in the board I'd probably change, though I'm not sure for what. I also want to try some other blue library manipulator for the spell snare. Is impulse good enough for legacy play?

[Wargoos]

Just a slight question: Why is this still not DTB?!

Oh and gratz to the nice finish GtF

[Nihil Credo]

Just thought I'd drop this by: Kikkofrio won a 132-player tournament (that's eight rounds) with the standard list. He beat two Rw Goblins and Doran Rock in the Top 8; not sure about the Swiss.

[nitewolf9]

Just thought I'd drop this by: Kikkofrio won a 132-player tournament (that's eight rounds) with the standard list. He beat two Rw Goblins and Doran Rock in the Top 8; not sure about the Swiss.

That's awesome, congratulations to him. I think the deck is pretty strong.

[kikkofrio]

That's awesome, congratulations to him. I think the deck is pretty strong.


Tnx :tongue:

This was my tourney

1: I don t remember. 2-0
2: Fish uwgb. 0-2 (top8)
3. Angel stompy. 2-0
4. MUC. 2-1
5. Lanstill uwgb. 2-0
6. Goblin rw 2-0
7. Goblin rw 2-1
8. Ichorid 2-1

Quarter Goblin rw. 2-1
Semi Goblin rw. 2-1
Split in Final vs rock

[mossivo1986]

Actually I was being sincere about him doing well so once again congrats.

[nitewolf9]

@kikkofrio: You used the same main deck as the one on the first post in this thread, correct? How about your sideboard? Did you run the 4 crypt, 3 grip, 3 edict, 3 blast, 2 reanimate board? If so, do you have any additional insight to share about the configuration?

We're trying to optimize the sideboard, but I think the only thing that is controversial at all is reanimate. Although I think that card is very strong, I'm curious as to how you felt about it (and anyone else who has been using the same list).

[Wargoos]

Well, at the moment my sideboard looks like this:

3 Krosan Grip
3 Extirpate
4 BBlast
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Pithing Needle


The idea behind this configuration is that i play extirpates as weapons vs. dredge and loam based decks( plus it removes duals from opp lib) and am therefore able to add needles in the side.
Being boardable against nearly everything, needle is a additional solution against bunchload of problem cards like sdt, ee, survival etc.
In addition it helps shutting down utility lands and permitts us to play our sinks on opps basic lands.
The rest of the sideboard is the ordinary stuff.
Sometimes i exchange the edict's with e.plagues to adapt to my local meta.
So far~
EaD

[Aj-capra]

EE is a problem for Team America?

EE destroy only Tarmogoyf in team america!!!

I play Team Europe now, because spell snare is very very strong.

My list now is:

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [R] Underground Sea
2 [R] Tropical Island
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [ALA] Swamp (1)
1 [ALA] Island (1)
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [R] Bayou

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [SC] Stifle
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [MM] Snuff Out
3 [DIS] Spell Snare

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [5E] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [AT] Hymn to Tourach

I play two basic lands because magus of the moon and blood moon are very very bad!!!

EE is very very strong versus goblin , chalice, counterbalance, nimble mongoose.

Sinkhole is strong too, but daze is a problem.

Tourach in SB are good versus combo, mirror and control decks in general!!!

I played team america in my last tournament (kikkofrio won with team america) and I finished 5-3 because in my last game I losted for choke...Otherwise I finished 6-2 (top16).

@edit : sry for my little english :(

Aj.-

[Wargoos]

EE is a problem for Team America?
Well, of course it can kill just our goyf, but loosing even one critter isn't optimal for us, since we are just playing 8 of them.
And i do love my greenies =(

[Aj-capra]

Well, of course it can kill just our goyf, but loosing even one critter isn't optimal for us, since we are just playing 8 of them.
And i do love my greenies =(

Yes, it's true!!! But in early game EE is very very good for me.
My playing strategy is destroy my opponent (manabase,treaths) and later win de game!!!

Sinkhole is good in early game only. After 4°/5° turns of game it's a dead card for me, spell snare not!!!
Obv if the turn 1° and 2° I played 2 wasteland, sinkhole is very very strong :)

[Wargoos]

I don't know if ee is so good, since we have the snuff outs already for opp's critters.

For me the way to go is the manabase disruption.
Sinkholes, Wastelands and Stifle are just interacting too good to cut anything of these and aim right for gaining huge advantages in early game and clear the way for the win right there.

Cutting Sinkholes and Non Basic lands and adding EE's and Spell Snares kinda "slows" the deck down for some reasons:
1. EE needs an investment of twice payment to get rid of problems.
2. Spell Snares wants us to keep open mana to be available, which isn't often the ideal strategy of TA as nitewolf designed it to be.
The huge advantage is that we actually can afford to tap out (for creatures), since we are still able to cast spells.

Besides i think that you don't really need the ee's and spell snares when your deck works as it's designed, keeping the opp at one - two mana while generating pressure with your huge dudes.

Am i missing somethin?

[Nazgath]

Has anyone considered Paralyze (http://magiccards.info/4e/en/35.html) over Diabolic Edict (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/22.html)? Nothing came up in my search.


Pros:
-Costs 1 mana less
-You get to choose


Cons:
-Cannot touch shroud
-More vulerable to CB?
-Sucks lategame
-Lone Confidant chuckles
-Sorcery speed



Yes, that does seem a bit lopsided, but maybe the mana cost is relevant enough?

[Nazgath]

Just saw this post:

@kikkofrio: You used the same main deck as the one on the first post in this thread, correct? How about your sideboard? Did you run the 4 crypt, 3 grip, 3 edict, 3 blast, 2 reanimate board? If so, do you have any additional insight to share about the configuration?

We're trying to optimize the sideboard, but I think the only thing that is controversial at all is reanimate. Although I think that card is very strong, I'm curious as to how you felt about it (and anyone else who has been using the same list).
If Reanimate is in the deck, Paralyze obviously sucks. My decklist is pretty old. :cry:

[mackaber]

Just thought ya'll might be interested that Team America will be played in the Top 4 of the Team Competition at Worlds by the Australian National Team.
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/worlds08/teamtop4decks

A livestream should also be up pretty soon.

[kikkofrio]

@kikkofrio: You used the same main deck as the one on the first post in this thread, correct? How about your sideboard? Did you run the 4 crypt, 3 grip, 3 edict, 3 blast, 2 reanimate board? If so, do you have any additional insight to share about the configuration?

We're trying to optimize the sideboard, but I think the only thing that is controversial at all is reanimate. Although I think that card is very strong, I'm curious as to how you felt about it (and anyone else who has been using the same list).

no reanimate for me,

4 beb
4 krosan
4 tormod
3 edict

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

So, I tested some against this with Mighty Quinn, and a weakness the deck has against control is that it has no way of smoothing draws consistently in the mid to late game. There's not enough cantrips to really chain into each other reliably ala old Hatfield Thresh.

Top is a possibility, but another thought I had was fitting in Portent.

This lead to a thought;

Slowtrip, yeah, but might the ability of Portent to insure that an opponent that's struggling to get a second land doesn't draw lands for another couple turns actually make it better than Ponder in this deck?

Has anyone thought of this angle, or does the situation just not come up often enough to warrant the wait on the draw aspect?

(Portent, unlike Ponder, can target opponents, so you can rearrange the top three of their library. If anyone's wondering what I'm talking about.)

[Nazgath]

So, I tested some against this with Mighty Quinn, and a weakness the deck has against control is that it has no way of smoothing draws consistently in the mid to late game. There's not enough cantrips to really chain into each other reliably ala old Hatfield Thresh.

Top is a possibility, but another thought I had was fitting in Portent.

This lead to a thought;

Slowtrip, yeah, but might the ability of Portent to insure that an opponent that's struggling to get a second land doesn't draw lands for another couple turns actually make it better than Ponder in this deck?

Has anyone thought of this angle, or does the situation just not come up often enough to warrant the wait on the draw aspect?

(Portent, unlike Ponder, can target opponents, so you can rearrange the top three of their library. If anyone's wondering what I'm talking about.)
I'm sorry, but that just sounds... Fucking awesome.

This could basically lead to motherfucking semi-Time Walks (http://magiccards.info/al/en/84.html)!

nitewolf9, could you post up the most recent "official" list you have so I can fire this baby up?

[nitewolf9]

The most recent "official" list is the one on the first page of this thread. The board was changed to -1 grip, -1 blast and +2 reanimate recently, and the change seems good.

I would not cut ponder for portent. Having what you need on the turn you play the cantrip is a lot better than randomly sometimes screwing your opponent's draws. However, portent could be added in addition to ponder, maybe as a 2 of. You could probably cut a sinkhole and maybe a snuff out to try that. Might be fine.

[Happy Gilmore]

Team America Was the AUS deck of choice at the team event of Worlds. They got to T2 but it came down to Dreadstill vs. TA. With Dreadstill winning.

Justin Cheung - Legacy - Australia
2008 Worlds National Team Top 4
Main Deck
60 cards
1 Bayou (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:autoCardWindow%28%27Bayou%27%29)
3 Bloodstained Mire (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:autoCardWindow%28%27Bloodstained_Mire%27%29)
2 Flooded Strand (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:autoCardWindow%28%27Flooded_Strand%27%29)
4 Polluted Delta (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:autoCardWindow%28%27Polluted_Delta%27%29)
2 Tropical Island (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:autoCardWindow%28%27Tropical_Island%27%29)
4 Underground Sea (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:autoCardWindow%28%27Underground_Sea%27%29)
4 Wasteland (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:autoCardWindow%28%27Wasteland%27%29)
20 lands


4 Tarmogoyf (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:autoCardWindow%28%27Tarmogoyf%27%29)
4 Tombstalker (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:autoCardWindow%28%27Tombstalker%27%29)
8 creatures

4 Brainstorm (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:autoCardWindow%28%27Brainstorm%27%29)
4 Daze (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:autoCardWindow%28%27Daze%27%29)
4 Force of Will (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:autoCardWindow%28%27Force_of_Will%27%29)
4 Ponder (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:autoCardWindow%28%27Ponder%27%29)
4 Sinkhole (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:autoCardWindow%28%27Sinkhole%27%29)
4 Snuff Out (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:autoCardWindow%28%27Snuff_Out%27%29)
4 Stifle (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:autoCardWindow%28%27Stifle%27%29)
4 Thoughtseize (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:autoCardWindow%28%27Thoughtseize%27%29)
32 other spells Sideboard

1 Blue Elemental Blast (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:autoCardWindow%28%27Blue_Elemental_Blast%27%29)
3 Diabolic Edict (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:autoCardWindow%28%27Diabolic_Edict%27%29)
1 Duress (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:autoCardWindow%28%27Duress%27%29)
2 Hydroblast (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:autoCardWindow%28%27Hydroblast%27%29)
3 Krosan Grip (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:autoCardWindow%28%27Krosan_Grip%27%29)
1 Threads of Disloyalty (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:autoCardWindow%28%27Threads_of_Disloyalty%27%29)
4 Tormod's Crypt (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:autoCardWindow%28%27Tormod%5Bs_Crypt%27%29)
15 sideboard cards


The most recent "official" list is the one on the first page of this thread. The board was changed to -1 grip, -1 blast and +2 reanimate recently, and the change seems good.

I would not cut ponder for portent. Having what you need on the turn you play the cantrip is a lot better than randomly sometimes screwing your opponent's draws. However, portent could be added in addition to ponder, maybe as a 2 of. You could probably cut a sinkhole and maybe a snuff out to try that. Might be fine.


In my testing a 2 of SDT was this much >>>>>>>>>>>>>> better than any other option. I went down to 3 sinkholes and 3 snuff outs. It does not slow the deck down, if anything you find threats faster.

[jazzykat]

This deck is truly excellent, however I do sometimes have trouble hitting BB on turn 2. I also have the luxury of playing in an underdeveloped meta where stifles will often be dead cards with no fetches to hit. Furthermore, wastelands will more often than not be colorless sources of mana.

I am looking for a way to modify the deck without losing its essence but to take advantage of my metagame by perhaps making it more consistent.

Perhaps removing the stifles and adding 2 or 3 tops and some smothers or hymns. Doing that may decrease the blue count too much so another idea I had was to add spell snares, wipe aways, or maybe misdirection...?

[socialite]

I am looking for a way to modify the deck without losing its essence but to take advantage of my metagame by perhaps making it more consistent.

Perhaps removing the stifles and adding 2 or 3 tops and some smothers or hymns. Doing that may decrease the blue count too much so another idea I had was to add spell snares, wipe aways, or maybe misdirection...?

No offense, but have you even taken the time to read this thread?

I suggest you do. It has been pointed out that what you suggest is in fact a terrible idea.

[nitewolf9]

This deck is truly excellent, however I do sometimes have trouble hitting BB on turn 2. I also have the luxury of playing in an underdeveloped meta where stifles will often be dead cards with no fetches to hit. Furthermore, wastelands will more often than not be colorless sources of mana.

I am looking for a way to modify the deck without losing its essence but to take advantage of my metagame by perhaps making it more consistent.

Perhaps removing the stifles and adding 2 or 3 tops and some smothers or hymns. Doing that may decrease the blue count too much so another idea I had was to add spell snares, wipe aways, or maybe misdirection...?

Honestly, if you are playing in an area with lots of jank, you should probably solve that by modifying the sideboard. Run more removal if it's a lot of aggro you're seeing, or some sort of hoser if there is some archetype that is giving you problems. I think between the board and the MD as it stands you should be able to deal with almost anything. What, in particular, are you having issues with?

[jazzykat]

@Ertai: Generally speaking you are correct, what I proposed are terrible ideas and I did read this thread that is why I qualified my statement with: "I also have the luxury of playing in an underdeveloped meta where stifles will often be dead cards with no fetches to hit. Furthermore, wastelands will more often than not be colorless sources of mana.". Did you read my post? Stifle is almost always a (near) dead card, what there is to stifle isn't worth my time. Stifle is there primarily to compliment the mana denial plan which doesn't work very well against basics.deck as my wastelands are also not optimal.

After testing the deck, my initial thoughts are that in a jank metagame I am better suited by playing a different deck as the major strenghth of this deck is it's vicious assault on competitive manabases, which as a side effect makes daze 10X better than it would otherwise be.

BTW: No offense, taken or meant.

@nitewolf9: I think more removal may be the way to go in the board, my concern is more that I have 8 cards that don't really effect them in a meaningful way. My biggest concern is getting BB on turn 2 and sometimes my second colored mana source on turn 2. This may very well be my fault as I don't mulligan well or aggressively enough but testing on MWS has proved somewhat frustrating.

[troopatroop]

If I were in an undeveloped metagame like that, I wouldn't play this deck. Staying in line with the LD strategy, Eva Green will have much fewer dead cards against opponents like that, with Wasteland being the only occasional one, and possibly Seal of Primordium if you don't drop it for Jitte or a metagame card straight up. It runs more creatures while keeping the two here. It sounds like a much better choice

[jazzykat]

If I were in an undeveloped metagame like that, I wouldn't play this deck. Staying in line with the LD strategy, Eva Green will have much fewer dead cards against opponents like that, with Wasteland being the only occasional one, and possibly Seal of Primordium if you don't drop it for Jitte or a metagame card straight up. It runs more creatures while keeping the two here. It sounds like a much better choice

Thanks. Your thoughts fall in line with my thoughts as well and I have used Eva Green before to good finishes in my meta.

[Bourgeoise]

In recent tournaments I have played in with this deck Reanimate has been one of the strongest cards out of the board for me nitewolf.

I've also gone down to 2 edicts so I can fit a fourth blue blast in my board since the majority of the decks I really want extra creature removal against seem to be the same decks that run red cards.

My current sideboard is:
2 edict
2 reanimate
2 BEB
2 hydroblast
3 krosan grip
4 crypt

I've been bringing in reanimate against decks that play only a few threats such as threshold in order to increase my own threat density. I know that it isn't an actual threat but with this deck the opponent has to answer your threats or they just lose. I have also been bringing it in for ichorid since it does more than snuff out in that matchup and have been able to randomly screw the ichorid player I was testing against out of their first dredger and then win the game because of it.

With that said I believe the card deserves a spot in the sideboard, but only as maybe a 2 of. The card has just straight up won me so many games recently that I urge you to at least test it out if you haven't already.

[socialite]

@Ertai: Generally speaking you are correct, what I proposed are terrible ideas and I did read this thread that is why I qualified my statement with: "I also have the luxury of playing in an underdeveloped meta where stifles will often be dead cards with no fetches to hit. Furthermore, wastelands will more often than not be colorless sources of mana.". Did you read my post? Stifle is almost always a (near) dead card, what there is to stifle isn't worth my time. Stifle is there primarily to compliment the mana denial plan which doesn't work very well against basics.deck as my wastelands are also not optimal.

After testing the deck, my initial thoughts are that in a jank metagame I am better suited by playing a different deck as the major strenghth of this deck is it's vicious assault on competitive manabases, which as a side effect makes daze 10X better than it would otherwise be.

BTW: No offense, taken or meant.

Yeah I noticed you had been posting in this thread since the start, as such I expected better from you. I did read your post and came to the same conclusion you seem to have come to; by removing all of those cards you might as well play a different deck such as Counter-Top Threshold.

I did not mean to come off as condescending its just that most of the things you asked and suggested such as Hymn have been beaten to death in this thread already.

Cheers. ~ Ertai

[Shriekmaw]

I think the current sideboard looks good, but I would never go without at least 3 engineered plague in the board since there is a lot of tribal decks floating around recently.

The big ones have been goblins and elves, but I've also seen faeries and merfolk in large events recently. These matchups are very bad for the deck without plague which is why I think its very necessary.

My board:

2 Reanimate
2 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Engineered Plague

[Ch@os]

Team America Was the AUS deck of choice at the team event of Worlds. They got to T2 but it came down to Dreadstill vs. TA. With Dreadstill winning.

Justin Cheung - Legacy - Australia
2008 Worlds National Team Top 4
Main Deck
60 cards
1 Bayou (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:autoCardWindow%28%27Bayou%27%29)
3 Bloodstained Mire (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:autoCardWindow%28%27Bloodstained_Mire%27%29)
2 Flooded Strand (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:autoCardWindow%28%27Flooded_Strand%27%29)
4 Polluted Delta (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:autoCardWindow%28%27Polluted_Delta%27%29)
2 Tropical Island (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:autoCardWindow%28%27Tropical_Island%27%29)
4 Underground Sea (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:autoCardWindow%28%27Underground_Sea%27%29)
4 Wasteland (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:autoCardWindow%28%27Wasteland%27%29)
20 lands



So it seems that nobody plays Bloodmoon, or moon effecs are just to slow to handle this deck.

[Omega]

I know some guys played it in our local area and got totally "raped" with TA because of the non basic land hate that is rampant.

The deck cant perform well in such meta.

Luckily for them, Moon effect seem to be "dead" from huge meta

Robert

[nitewolf9]

2 Reanimate
2 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Engineered Plague


If you are expecting a ton of tribal decks, maybe this would be ok. But this deck already has a favorable goblins matchup, and blasts from the board seem to be enough to push it further. Elves and merfolk might be a legitimate problem, but do enough people play those decks to really warrant 4 sideboard slots? I'm not so sure. I think I'd rather play more blasts because they actually help against decks like sligh and dragon stompy (although not many people are playing this deck anymore, for good reason). They just seem more versatile in general as red can be a problem (decks that are more aggressive on the life total than you; this usually means red is in the equation). Also, edict is very good. There are tons more aggro-control decks being played than tribal decks.

The only time moon effects are a huge issue is in the context of dragon stompy, because they can actually cast it from turn 1. Against any other deck post-board blasts are more effective, and so is keeping them off of 3 mana for long enough to put pressure on them. Moon effects are still a threat, but they are much more manageable.

[Shriekmaw]

If you are expecting a ton of tribal decks, maybe this would be ok. But this deck already has a favorable goblins matchup, and blasts from the board seem to be enough to push it further. Elves and merfolk might be a legitimate problem, but do enough people play those decks to really warrant 4 sideboard slots? I'm not so sure. I think I'd rather play more blasts because they actually help against decks like sligh and dragon stompy (although not many people are playing this deck anymore, for good reason). They just seem more versatile in general as red can be a problem (decks that are more aggressive on the life total than you; this usually means red is in the equation). Also, edict is very good. There are tons more aggro-control decks being played than tribal decks.

The only time moon effects are a huge issue is in the context of dragon stompy, because they can actually cast it from turn 1. Against any other deck post-board blasts are more effective, and so is keeping them off of 3 mana for long enough to put pressure on them. Moon effects are still a threat, but they are much more manageable.


I think it totally depends on the current field you expect to play against. I think your initial board is very good. I was just going by what I've seen lately in the larger events in Legacy in the Northeast.

Is it worth it at all to include a basic island in the deck? I never ran into the problem of non-basics with canadian threshold, but I did have access to lightning bolt for magus of the moon which is key in the matchups where you are facing that little red bastard.

I never faced this deck when I played goblins, but I'm pretty confidant in goblins when it comes to threshold variants. I found a lot of times that my opponents 4 blasts are not enough to beat goblins when they lack board sweepers. Just my quick thought with this matchup.

[nitewolf9]

This deck plays more like eva green does against goblins. Their best shot is to land an early aether vial. Even so, goblins really wants land. Stifle is also incredible against them. We tested the matchup quite a bit and I think Dave quit because he was tired of being kicked around. Also, between me and Eric, I think we've played against goblins about 5 times in large tournament play, and I don't think we've ever dropped a match to them. I lost once to Jesse Hatfield at a local tournament, but that was solely due to port and wasteland in game 3, which can happen. I don't think it's a cake walk, but I also don't think you need much help.

[Enigma]

Non-substantive one-lines are spam. Please see our forum-specific posting rules, which explain the DTB forum has the most stringent of posting requirements on this site. - Bardo

[Illissius]

What about, instead of a sideboard of specific utility cards, something like this:

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Vision Charm
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top (less if you have any maindeck)
2 Krosan Grip (more if room)

Against combo, -Snuff -Daze +Countertop. Against Goyf Sligh and Burn, -Thoughtseize -Snuff -Sinkhole +Charmnought +Countertop. Against Goblins, -Things +Charmnought. Against MUC and such, -Snuff -something (Sinkhole? Daze?) +Countertop. Against Aggro Loam, -Daze -Sinkhole -Thoughtseize? +Charmnought +Countertop. (Maybe just the Dreadnoughts here. No threes for Counterbalance kind of sucks. Still hits Loam, Wish, Dreams, Goyf, though.)

Obviously it's not perfect -- no Blasts against Moons, Crypts against Ichorid, or Edicts against Dreadstill and such. But you gain two widely applicable packages which are good at blowing entire swaths of the metagame out of the water. Bonus: They aren't going to have Grips in after game one. (And yeah, Countertop isn't quite in character for the deck. But sometimes the best sideboard plan is a new plan. And whatever else, it's immensely powerful and going to be way stronger than what comes out.)

[Shriekmaw]

The problem with that board is that it doesn't address any specific matchups. I would not want top/countebalance combo anywhere in this deck, because it goes against the whole tempo advantage.

The sideboard should be there to address weaknesses that the deck has and I don't believe this board does that. It would be best not to try to get cute with the board, the goal is to improve weak matchups.

[nitewolf9]

We tested these sideboards in an effort to shore up the zoo/sligh matchups:

4 krosan grip
4 tormod's crypt
4 counterbalance
3 sensei's divining top

and:

4 tormod's crypt
4 krosan grip
4 blue elemental blast
3 phyrexian dreadnought

Both seemed pretty interesting, but both configurations were too narrow. Sure, dreadnought is going to be very good out of the board against aggro, but edict is good as well while also being good against aggro control decks like threshold. Also, against zoo at least (Gbwr zoo), the win/loss numbers were the same pre and post board, with and without counter/top. It didn't really swing it at all (and that was game 2 testing, ie. no grips from opponent).

Vision charm is not a very strong card to be occupying board space, and I feel the blue blasts might be a necessity.

[Bourgeoise]

I think the current sideboard looks good, but I would never go without at least 3 engineered plague in the board since there is a lot of tribal decks floating around recently.

The big ones have been goblins and elves, but I've also seen faeries and merfolk in large events recently. These matchups are very bad for the deck without plague which is why I think its very necessary.

Have you tested it? I'll admit I haven't tested Elves myself but they seem like such a small part of the metagame that it isn't worth sideboarding for them.

Often in the goblins matchup I don't feel like even boarding in anything until I remember I have blue blasts, it really is not a hard matchup as you are making it sound and as Dan said neither of us has had any problem with it in tournament play.

I have not yet seen a faeries deck in tournament, though I just might not have been matched up against it and either but as with elves it seems like a small portion of a metagame if it is even present.

As far as Merfolk goes, I did play against it a couple of times in the last tournament I attended and only lost to the second due to topdecked merfolk with a reejerey in play, I agree that engineered plague would completely overwhelm these deck strategies but I have never felt behind against a tribal deck.


@ Omega

??????????

As far as decks running nonbasic land hate go just drop your threats as soon as you get them if you don't have an answer to the hate. Thoughtseize, FoW, and Daze should all be online when your opponent tries to cast a moon effect or B2B (Unless it is Dragon Stompy with it on turn one).

Dropping your threats when you do not have an adequate answer for these cards is the best thing to do because with a goyf of tombstalker on the board your opponent can no longer focus on disrupting your mana. If they go ahead with that plan anyways it just gives you extra turns to beat face. I've won in tournament play recently through both back to basics and crucible-wasteland lock by just running my dudes out there instead of using my mana to brainstorm or ponder for answers and keeping my counters back to protect my creatures instead.

Taking this approach was so effective that I didn't even bother boarding in grips for subsequent games.

[Shriekmaw]

I do appreciate your insights on the deck and sideboard. I was just explaining my experiences in the past when it came to certain matchups with regards to threshold.

I do like how this deck plays out because it has more mana denial by adding sinkhole to the deck and another great threat in tombstalker. I'll be interested in the results still to come, especially since the GP is getting closer and closer.

I'm going to work on the sideboard and will report back when I have some results and get your thoughts on it.

[Illissius]

We tested these sideboards in an effort to shore up the zoo/sligh matchups:

4 krosan grip
4 tormod's crypt
4 counterbalance
3 sensei's divining top

and:

4 tormod's crypt
4 krosan grip
4 blue elemental blast
3 phyrexian dreadnought

Both seemed pretty interesting, but both configurations were too narrow. Sure, dreadnought is going to be very good out of the board against aggro, but edict is good as well while also being good against aggro control decks like threshold. Also, against zoo at least (Gbwr zoo), the win/loss numbers were the same pre and post board, with and without counter/top. It didn't really swing it at all (and that was game 2 testing, ie. no grips from opponent).

It's pretty cool that you guys have already tested every suggestion I think of making. :)


Vision charm is not a very strong card to be occupying board space

Vision Charm
:u:
Instant
You can has Phyrexian Dreadnought.

I think that's a pretty strong effect against many decks. Sure, Vision Charm looks janky, but you have to keep the goal in mind. Dreadnought isn't a very reliable plan if you only have 4 Stifle and 3 Dreadnoughts and 8 cantrips to find them. If you want to get early 12/12 tramplers against the decks which lose to them with some degree of consistency, I think you need more than just Stifle. (Vision Charm incidentally has other uses, like turboing a Tombstalker.)



and I feel the blue blasts might be a necessity.

Could you elaborate on this? Against Moon effects? That I can understand. But otherwise, it either kills a dork or counters a burn spell, neither of which seem indispensable. Though I admit it sounds pretty good against Ringleaders and Siege-Gangs if you manage to keep Goblins off Lackey and Vial -- is that it?

[nitewolf9]

It's pretty cool that you guys have already tested every suggestion I think of making. :)


Like I said, we have put a LOT of time in testing this deck. Back when it was "Europe" with dreadnoughts, it looked almost identical to your dread stalker list, so there might be a reason for this similarity of thought process. We all had the same ideas at about the same time, when dreadnought was errata'd, but reached different conclusions. Nought could still be ok in the board, but you will be giving up a either a powerful tool against threshold, or against moon effects/goblins/sligh/aggro decks that give this deck problems (that all seem to run red).



Vision Charm
:u:
Instant
You can has Phyrexian Dreadnought.

I think that's a pretty strong effect against many decks. Sure, Vision Charm looks janky, but you have to keep the goal in mind. Dreadnought isn't a very reliable plan if you only have 4 Stifle and 3 Dreadnoughts and 8 cantrips to find them. If you want to get early 12/12 tramplers against the decks which lose to them with some degree of consistency, I think you need more than just Stifle. (Vision Charm incidentally has other uses, like turboing a Tombstalker.)


"Turboing out tombstalker" is not a relevant ability in this deck. You will never have a problem casting tombstalker. Charm will pretty much be a dead draw without a nought. I think I'd rather run 1 or 2 trickbinds if I were to supplement the stifles. It seems to just be a better card than vision charm.



Could you elaborate on this? Against Moon effects? That I can understand. But otherwise, it either kills a dork or counters a burn spell, neither of which seem indispensable. Though I admit it sounds pretty good against Ringleaders and Siege-Gangs if you manage to keep Goblins off Lackey and Vial -- is that it?

Blast is the most versatile answer to the aggro decks that can give you problems, while also being able to answer moon effects. It has really pulled its weight, so it has stayed in. Sometimes things just seem to work in practice. But versatility is the main thing.

Here's another idea about dreadnought: what about replacing tormod's crypt with dreadnoughts (maybe 3 dreadnoughts and a trickbind, I duno)? I rarely see ichorid anymore and nought might actually help with that matchup as well. That's the only reason crypt is in the board really, I can't think of any other matchup where you need it. Sure, it helps vs aggro loam, but you have so much other stuff to board in there and I haven't found that matchup to be very difficult.

He might even still be too much of a liability, but it may be worth testing against aggro like sligh or zoo. If it skews those numbers it could be worth it.

[Brizentine Empire]

I have been playing Goblins for over a year now, and I believe that their time is running short, at least until they are made prevalent again. The thing is, with GP Chicago in a couple of months, I think that Team America is going to be a good portion of the meta. So, I was wondering: how is the mirror match? And how does this deck perform against land-intensive decks such as Landstill, AggroLoam, 43land.dec, and even Dreadstill? I've been knocking around the idea of either playing this or Swan Thresh at the GP, so it would be nice to know your guys' opinions.

[nitewolf9]

So, I was wondering: how is the mirror match?

I'd say it's roughly even.


And how does this deck perform against land-intensive decks such as Landstill, AggroLoam, 43land.dec, and even Dreadstill? I've been knocking around the idea of either playing this or Swan Thresh at the GP, so it would be nice to know your guys' opinions.

Landstill seems to be a good matchup, at least most builds of it. It really depends on what kind of removal they are running and their manabase. AggroLoam is favorable, and post board you bring in a LOT of removal and yard hate.

Dreadstill will depend largely on their build, but it is very close. Against the Ur lists, pre board you are behind, but post board you are slightly ahead.

If 43land.dec is even a concern, I will say it's not bad actually. I've played against it a few times with TA and didn't find the deck to be very good. You have a lot of LD which is very relevant, and generally they will try to play maze of ith to stop tombstalker which you can just blow up turn after turn and keep swinging. Try to stop manabond, but even if they resolve that it's still not that bad. Post board crypts wreck them. I don't think the deck is very good, unless landstill is absolutely everywhere.

[MTL10]

If 43land.dec is even a concern, I will say it's not bad actually. I've played against it a few times with TA and didn't find the deck to be very good. You have a lot of LD which is very relevant, and generally they will try to play maze of ith to stop tombstalker which you can just blow up turn after turn and keep swinging.

honestly, i don't see how you beat a Maze of Ith... you only have 8 LD cards (wasteland and sinkhole) and they have 4 maze of ith Plus loam to recur them plus recurring factories to block goyfs over and over. Tabernacle seems rough too, especially when paired with a maze :/

also, is the list on the first post the most currently updated decklist? i'm trying to put together multiple decks to test for the GP and considering this is as close to Tier 1 as the legacy format can get, i'll put this one together as well. :)

[nitewolf9]

The list hasn't really changed. And seriously, test against 43land.dec if you insist on worrying about it. It's not that bad at all. You can just race them. Also, stifle works on maze of ith activations. They can't stop tombstalker unless they get a nut draw and dump a bunch of manlands on the table on the first turn to race you. You can also counter life from the loam to buy a turn. It's all about tempo. LD is good against that deck, lftl or not.

[Brizentine Empire]

I never considered 43land.dec to be a concern, but it is played every week at my local card shop to very good results. It seems that TA, however, could have problems with Zoo, which might be a little bigger than expected at the GP in March.

[rsaunder]

I'd say it's roughly even.Ouch. That one hurt.

If the meta is going to involve a lot of bad creature decks in Chicago, MD edicts/removal may be the correct choice. Just like a janky metagame.

For some reason though, I bet Ichorid will be one hell of a meta concern. It's easily ported and easy to play if you have experience with vintage.

[Whit3 Ghost]

Ouch. That one hurt.

If the meta is going to involve a lot of bad creature decks in Chicago, MD edicts/removal may be the correct choice. Just like a janky metagame.

For some reason though, I bet Ichorid will be one hell of a meta concern. It's easily ported and easy to play if you have experience with vintage.
Yeah, Ichorid may very well be the new Affinity at Chicago.

As for the Zoo/Sligh matchup, what about boarding in additional removal like Smother or Ghastly Demise? It allows you to save your counters for Price of Progress and other bad things instead of having to counter Goyf and friends?

Also, would Chill merit any consideration?

[rsaunder]

Also, would Chill merit any consideration?I think goblins would have to all but disappear as a meta concern to justify red hate that doesn't shaft the little green men.

[Shriekmaw]

Also, would Chill merit any consideration?


The goal is to improve all the decks matchups with a particular sideboard slot, which is why I think the blue blasts are really good. I don't like not having engineered plague in the board because it makes a lot of matchups very tough if not impossible to win, mainly the tribal decks.

I think Ichorid might be another concern, but I think its only a concern at the GP level. The best approach to fighting that matchup would be to play crypt or leyline in the board, I would lend toward crypt though.

At the GP, you will run into a lot of threshold decks which can be tough if you have to fight through them all day long.

Great deck, and hopefully more people will pick it up.

[Omega]

In "underdevelopped" metagame, i think chill are cards you need to play because of monored burn. However, i dont think you will have to play them at the GP. Ichorid should be more of a concern than Burn.

I would say that most decks are going to be aggro/control, control and combo. You won't see alot of the goblins. Some zoo probably

Its suicidal to play legacy without any disruption

Robert

[Shriekmaw]

You won't see alot of the goblins.


Are you serious? If you don't think you'll see goblins at the GP then you are living in fantasy land. Get with the program.



The GP field will consist of goblins, aggro control (threshold variants), and combo (storm/dredge).

Plus, the last to Legacy GP's we saw goblins in the finals with one winning it. It was really impressive when flash was around that Goblins got to the finals and almost won it.

[quicksilver]

I don't think goblins will be as prevelant as it once was. Now don't be surprised if you get paired against it, but also don't be surprised if you don't get paired against it.

[Frid]

The metagame has changed a lot. We dont have a legacy GP since colombus and flash wasnt banned yet so figure... I dont think goblins is as good it once was

[Obfuscate Freely]

Have you guys read the text on Chill? It's incredible against Goblins.

[rsaunder]

Well, it would be if goblins didn't play vial or lackey.

[raharu]

Have you guys read the text on Chill? It's incredible against Goblins.
You meant Propaganda, right? Tell me you meant Propaganda.

[xsockmonkeyx]

The metagame has changed a lot. We dont have a legacy GP since colombus and flash wasnt banned yet so figure... I dont think goblins is as good it once was

Goblins is still good, its just the rest of the field has upped its game so it's not going to be as dominant as it once was. I know what you mean though.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Well, it would be if goblins didn't play vial or lackey.
Stopping those two cards is already your top priority, because you can't win the game if they come online.

The drawback of Chill is that it doesn't help answer either Vial or Lackey (whereas BEB at least answers Lackey), but it is still a powerful tool that fits directly in line with your gameplan in the matchup.

[nitewolf9]

One thing I'd like to do is test post board matches against goyf sligh. I'm not sure how bad the matchup is when blasts come in, or even how many people can be expected to play that deck. But if it is a concern, chill will definitely wreck them. Then we could think about testing chill vs goblins.

[Bourgeoise]

If you draw the right amount of creatures and removal in the early game you can just race goblins even if they go first turn vial, all you have to do is answer lackey and warchief so that siege gang doesn't come into play before you can handle it.

Especially post board when you have blasts brought in.

[raharu]

You meant Propaganda, right? Tell me you meant Propaganda.

Again, I mention Propaganda. Have you ever wanted to play a one-sided Moat in the agro match-up? Here you go. If you can keep them off their mana, you're guaranteed to win (lest they draw a KGrip and the 3rd land, and said land isn't Stifle-able, because they run 8 fetchlands).

[rancOr_]

@ Nitewolf9

I've tested ALOT against Goyf Sligh and I must say the MU isn't that bad as I thought it would be. The best thing u can do MB is to try and manascrew them.
Starting with an open sea for stifle is very good(they play quite some fetch).Combined with sinkhole/wasteland/daze the best way to go is to play very agressive on them. Try to save ur dazes for Goys/Pops(ouch). So the mainplan is to manascrew them,so daze gets alot of power. If however,that doesnt work I try to get fast goyfs/tstalker online. I only use snuff outs on Tarmogoyfs/Grim lavamancer. Never counter the burn spells,only the relevant stuff like Pop/goyfs.. Stifle is suprisingly good in this MU. It can take care of Rift Bolt/fetch/ the Mogg Fanatic sacc(goyf vs.goyf).
I would say the MU mainboard is around 54% TA, 46% Goyf Sligh.
After sideboard u should have the advantage. Diabolic Edicts instead of Snuff Outs, B-blasts come in and Thoughtseize out. 65% TA, 35% Goyf Sligh.
These are my testing results so far: MB:34-27, SB:39-21.

As for Propaganda, I wouldn't play it in the SB. Blasts/edicts are more then enough to stop goblins/sligh ,..

[scrumdogg]

If you draw the right amount of creatures and removal in the early game you can just race goblins even if they go first turn vial, all you have to do is answer lackey and warchief so that siege gang doesn't come into play before you can handle it.

Especially post board when you have blasts brought in.

Perhaps I missed it earlier in the thread, but what exactly would you board in and out versus Goblins? Do you bring in the Grips? More precisely, what exactly do you board out, especially if it would be Grips and Blasts?

[Citrus-God]

Stopping those two cards is already your top priority, because you can't win the game if they come online.

The drawback of Chill is that it doesn't help answer either Vial or Lackey (whereas BEB at least answers Lackey), but it is still a powerful tool that fits directly in line with your gameplan in the matchup.

OF is right, you deserve to lose no matter what if you let those cards resolve and stick.

Btw, Propaganda sucks against Goyf Sligh. I don't need to explain this one, really.

[rsaunder]

Stopping those two cards is already your top priority, because you can't win the game if they come online.

The drawback of Chill is that it doesn't help answer either Vial or Lackey (whereas BEB at least answers Lackey), but it is still a powerful tool that fits directly in line with your gameplan in the matchup.

I would think that if you're going to side in a card against gobbos, you'd want a card that does something about lackey/vial as opposed to something that assumes you've already taken care of lackey/vial. You've all said that TA loses if they come online (I don't disagree), so stopping them should be the priority when boarding. I haven't tested chill, but the way you're describing its function, it's strictly "win more."

[Blackened]

I would think that if you're going to side in a card against gobbos, you'd want a card that does something about lackey/vial as opposed to something that assumes you've already taken care of lackey/vial. You've all said that TA loses if they come online (I don't disagree), so stopping them should be the priority when boarding. I haven't tested chill, but the way you're describing its function, it's strictly "win more."

Goblins can certainly still win without Goblin Lackey or Vial. So in a lot of cases it isn't a "win more" type of card. I can see why it would be if you've already got other mass aggro-nerfing cards in the board (such as Plague or Propaganda). Not to say it wouldn't be harder for them to win without Lackey or Vial, but it still shouldn't be too hard against this deck unless you have well-timed Snuff Outs and Goyfs.

[nitewolf9]

Against goblins take out 4 sinkholes for the 3 blasts (or 4 if you run 4) and 1 reanimate. Stifle is incredibly good against them and with so much removal post board you don't have much trouble stopping the lackeys and warchiefs.
I haven't really found the goblins matchup to be much of a problem, really. LD is only one of your plans against that deck.

[No_Life_No_Future]

I recently built this deck and it is a blast to play! I have been having a little trouble versus my brothers aggro loam deck. I think the problem cards for me in that matchup are loam and mox diamond. It is really hard to keep daze good when he gets a first turn diamond and it simply makes the rest of the decks land destruction less effective.

What do you recommend sideboarding in for this matchup? He plays GBR loam with crushers/goyf/terravore/tombstalkers.

Also what is the best plan against decks that play artifact acceleration such as chrome mox or mox diamond?


P.S. How bad is Hidden Gibbons or Hidden Guerillas in board?

[rancOr_]

The best u can do vs. (Aggro) loam is to try and get a fast Tombstalker online.
You must be faster then them,cause when they get the loam-engine going,u wont win most of the time.
I sideboard like this: -4 Sinkhole,-1 Stifle ,+2 Reanimate, +3 Diabolic Edict vs. Loam.
As for aggro loam:-4 Sinkhole,-4 Stifle ,+2 Reanimate, +3 Diabolic Edict,+3 Blue Elemental Blast.(crusher,assault.).

After side u should have a decent chance of winning.Edict and reanimate!(owns vs loam) really helps. Mainboard u must try to get a fast threat and only counter the relevant stuff.

Hope this helps a bit.

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

I think this deck is not as good as everyone makes it out to be!

I'm a pretty good Magic Player (Throwin that on the table). I've played this deck in about 7 tournaments. Sure, this deck does good against all blue decks, it lacks the power to beat Mono-colored decks. In my tests playing it, The Deck struggles against Mono Black, Mono White, Goblins (easiest), Burn, Merfolk.

"Reasoning"

Stifle - Becomes worthless

Wastelands - Barely Useful

Sinkholes - Sure, but since they dont run fetches, this is the only way you
can slow them down.

8-12 Dead Cards, not to mention Snuff outs are worthless against other Black Creatures i. e. Tombstalker, Confidant.

It sounds ridiculous, but If they have a hand with 3 Plains, Samurai, Silver Knight, Serra Avenger, and Figure of Destiny, I don't see team america Winning. Equipments just kill you, not to mention you can't block shadow guys, and 1-2 Swords to Plowshares wont let you block. 4 Creatures vs Team America, Team America Loses. Also dates back to the earlier conversation, Hymn serves a better purpose than Sinkhole. Anyone wanna argue?! Just Kidding.

It does make a little sense, Team America would have to have very lucky match-ups, and very good draws (i. e. Smitty - Meandeck Open, Dec. 28th). Discussing 43 Lands is another topic, because the matchup is very hard to beat with Team America, because Wasteland vs. Wasteland. Factory vs Tarmogoyf, Maze vs. Sinkhole/Stifle, unless you can counter loam 2-3 times early or 5-6 times late game.

[T is for TOOL]

I think this deck is not as good as everyone makes it out to be!
Who is 'everyone' and how good are they making the deck out to be?


I'm a pretty good Magic Player (Throwin that on the table). I've played this deck in about 7 tournaments. Sure, this deck does good against all blue decks, it lacks the power to beat Mono-colored decks.
Are you saying that the deck does well against the decks it was designed to beat, and struggles against some of the decks that it wasn't designed to beat?


Discussing 43 Lands is another topic, because the matchup is very hard to beat with Team America, because Wasteland vs. Wasteland. Factory vs Tarmogoyf, Maze vs. Sinkhole/Stifle, unless you can counter loam 2-3 times early or 5-6 times late game.
Against 43 Lands, the strongest gameplan would be to resolve a Tombstalker and fly over 4 times. If they drop a Maze, you have Wasteland, Sinkhole, and Stifle to help force through damage.

[Ch@os]

Sure is a meta deck.
In a field of Elves, Goblin, burn and white weenie i would propably play another deck.

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

Who is 'everyone' and how good are they making the deck out to be?




In an earlier post in this forum, a few people had said it will be a popular deck at the Grand Prix


Are you saying that the deck does well against the decks it was designed to beat, and struggles against some of the decks that it wasn't designed to beat?



Yes, that is exacly what I meant

[Valtrix]

Well, the thing is that monocolored deck just aren't played much in more developed/competitive metagames. This deck is designed to do well against what the "general" metagame is at (So, stuff you might expect to see more at larger, higher-reward tournaments). So, if you're playing at a less developed metagame, then obviously this deck isn't the best to play. However, if you're going someplace with more development, then it's likely to do well.

[Ch@os]

What do you guys think about 3x [Sideboard] Pernicious Deed?
Against random weeniedecks in an not so developed meta.

[aTn]

Ch@os: I've tried 3x P. Deed in the SB when my meta had decent amounts of random aggro and it worked just fine. My gameplan changed in these match-ups since I didn't find mana denial to be really effective (especially if they played Vial). Basically, all the games I played against such decks boiled down to slowing them down with Goyfs, Snuff Out + Edict + Deed and then resolving a Tombstalker (or activating Deed with Tombstalker in play) and riding TS to victory.

[Ch@os]

Yay, great to hear, thats exactly what came to my mind.
I dont want to loose against those decks and Deed, Edict, Snuff Out seems a very effective plan.

What Sideboard did you play exactly? I mentioned something like this:

3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Pernicious Deed

But i really loved to play the 4th BEB.

[carlitobunz]

Tombstalker is getting submerged more often....thus his value is decreasing. If counterbalance is bigger at your shop than he's fine but if tempo thresh is seen more often then I recommend mongoose or bob. Conversely, more creatures I've been seeing are snuff out proof leaving those cards as blanks more often now. Diabolic edict seems to fill enough of that role. Just my two cents after a recent 77 person top 8.

[URABAHN]

Tombstalker is getting submerged more often....thus his value is decreasing. If counterbalance is bigger at your shop than he's fine but if tempo thresh is seen more often then I recommend mongoose or bob. Conversely, more creatures I've been seeing are snuff out proof leaving those cards as blanks more often now. Diabolic edict seems to fill enough of that role. Just my two cents after a recent 77 person top 8.

Oh, I definitely want to hear about creatures you can't snuff out! Other than Mongoose, Tombstalker, and Mystic Enforcer, what un-Snuffable targets did you run into?

[Ch@os]

So maybe a split of Snuff Out /Edict 3/3?
Or replace Snuff Out complete with Edict?

[nitewolf9]

Oh, I guess no one is playing tarmogoyf anymore. Fair enough. Would you not run tombstalker because swords to plowshares exists btw? Sure, submerge is a pain in the ass, but I don't think you just stop running an amazing threat because a blue spell can answer him.

Mongoose is probably ok, but I still don't think he's nearly as strong as stalker is.

[Shriekmaw]

Tombstalker is getting submerged more often....thus his value is decreasing. If counterbalance is bigger at your shop than he's fine but if tempo thresh is seen more often then I recommend mongoose or bob. Conversely, more creatures I've been seeing are snuff out proof leaving those cards as blanks more often now. Diabolic edict seems to fill enough of that role. Just my two cents after a recent 77 person top 8.


I have played both versions of threshold, my black build and team america. After playing a lot of matches and tournaments with both, I found Mongoose to be far surperior to Tombstalker in most of my matches by having the ability to not target the creature which is huge.

The decks basically play the same cards with the only real change is tombstalker and sinkhole getting replaced since they have the double black in the casting cost.

I still think the canadian threshold deck is better than both of these, but if I had to pick a black variant, then its the one I've been testing and lending out to people in Syracuse to play.

[Mantis]

Stalker represents an actual clock. Nimble Mongoose can just be chumped and Goyf eats it alive. It's clock is a lot slower. This deck needs a fast clock otherwise the opponent can just rebuild it's manabase and find answers to your threats. What I could see is maybe dropping one of the Tombstalkers for a misers Mongoose as getting stuck with 2 Stalkers is pretty bad.

I can see why Canadian Thresh prefers Mongoose (aside from the color requirments), they play tons of removal to clear out any blockers. Also, Canadian Thresh doesn't require an opponent to be at 0 life when he recovers from the tempo loss due to Stifle and Wastes. It just needs to put the opponent into burn range.

I'm sorry if I didn't actually responded to any question as I wasn't sure where some of the posts were getting at. In that case just ignore this rant.

[aTn]

It totally agree with you Mantis.


Tombstalker is getting submerged more often....thus his value is decreasing.

Ideally, you have to adapt what lands you put into play with your gameplan (i.e. if you want Tombstalker to stick, don't put Forests into play). That being said, that won't happen always in practice...

[Shriekmaw]

It totally agree with you Mantis.



Ideally, you have to adapt what lands you put into play with your gameplan (i.e. if you want Tombstalker to stick, don't put Forests into play). That being said, that won't happen always in practice...


If your saying that Carl didn't understand what the alternate casting cost of submerge was then your mistaken. Sometimes you don't have an option not to play a land b/c its a forest. You need blue mana a lot of times for your counters/draw and the 1 bayou is sometimes necessary in order to attain double black. When your playing against a tempo thresh deck, you need to hit your early land drops and protect them.

Maybe you live in a perfect world, we do not.

[Mantis]

If your saying that Carl didn't understand what the alternate casting cost of submerge was then your mistaken. Sometimes you don't have an option not to play a land b/c its a forest. You need blue mana a lot of times for your counters/draw and the 1 bayou is sometimes necessary in order to attain double black. When your playing against a tempo thresh deck, you need to hit your early land drops and protect them.

Maybe you live in a perfect world, we do not.
He makes a pretty valid point, sure sometimes you are left with no option but there are times you can play around Submerge. He even said that it won't always happen...

[aTn]

Maybe you live in a perfect world, we do not.

Good job extrapolating my post into the stratosphere :wink:

In my post I said:


That being said, that won't happen always in practice...


If your saying that Carl didn't understand what the alternate casting cost

I'm not.

What I'm saying is obvious: if your opponent sides-in Submerge and you don't know it, then yes, it might wreck your game. If you're aware of it, then there are ways to minimize the damage it's going to cause by simply backing your creatures (it seems like you play enough disruption to do this rather often) and occasionally, you'll be able to deny the alternate cost. Conclusion: Yes Submerge increases UGR-Thrash' MU against TA, but I don't think Tombstalker's price is going to go down because of it (i.e. people will continue to smash face with TS in TA against Thrash). I don't think people will stop playing aggro-loam or Terravore and friends because of Submerge... :wink:

[kroelai]

What would be a good sideboard for a 128 player GPT tournament when you don't really know what is going to be played?

[Captain Hammer]

Have any of you made any changes at all to nitewolf's original list in the OP, either the maindeck or the sideboard?

Eight threats just seems way too meager for me, so I cut Sinkhole to play the biggest threat of all time.

From the build in the OP...

+2 [VI] Vision Charm
+4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought

-2 [MM] Snuff Out
-4 [UN] Sinkhole

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=310350&postcount=135

Basically, you're opting to cut Sinkhole to play an additional kickass threat, a 12/12 trampler along with Vision Charm which is plenty capable of color screwing your opponent.

Regarding the original sideboard, neither the Blue Elemental Blasts nor the Diabolic Edicts seem really optimal compared to options like Pithing Needles (far more versatile) and Misdirections (to protect your threats).

[Mister Agent]

Pernicious deed does not seem all that great of a sideboard card for Team America since for one the spell costs three and it ties up more resources which outweighs it's actual benefits. The idea of Team America is to play some of the most cost efficient utility spells in the game and just smash face with cheap but productive threats. I don't see pernicious deed anywhere in that description for it's inclusion.

[klaus]

Regarding the original sideboard, neither the Blue Elemental Blasts nor the Diabolic Edicts seem really optimal compared to options like Pithing Needles (far more versatile) and Misdirections (to protect your threats).

WITH sinkholes, Divert appears to be far superior to Misd..
Even w/o Sinkholes Divert seems at least par to me.

[jazzykat]

I personally think divert is the funniest card on the planet right now. In a highly developed meta I think it is one of the most powerful cards as it handles some of the most powerful cards: thoughtseize, hymn, sinkhole, stp,smother, burn, and can help win a counter battle unexpectantly.

[Captain Hammer]

Yeah, I totally forgot about Divert.

I should try it.

I mean if Force Spike at 1cc said counter target spell unless your opponent pays 2, it would see a ridiculous amount of play, probably just as much as FoW.

So Divert should see the same amount of play as Misdirection.

[Jak]

Have any of you made any changes at all to nitewolf's original list in the OP, either the maindeck or the sideboard?

Eight threats just seems way too meager for me, so I cut Sinkhole to play the biggest threat of all time.

From the build in the OP...

+2 [VI] Vision Charm
+4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought

-2 [MM] Snuff Out
-4 [UN] Sinkhole

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=310350&postcount=135

Basically, you're opting to cut Sinkhole to play an additional kickass threat, a 12/12 trampler along with Vision Charm which is plenty capable of color screwing your opponent.

Regarding the original sideboard, neither the Blue Elemental Blasts nor the Diabolic Edicts seem really optimal compared to options like Pithing Needles (far more versatile) and Misdirections (to protect your threats).

So you cut Sinkhole which has amazing synergy with the deck and totally kicked the mana denial up a level and half of your removal to play Dreadnought. Why? 8 threats has been sufficient and I don't see how adding Dreadnought, a creatures that needs another card to be played would help.

Also, I try to build my SBs so that they help in problematic MUs. BEB for burn and Goblins since they are rough MUs and Edict for additional removal against decks like Goblins, Zoo, and Thresh.

[Captain Hammer]

When I tried the deck, I've found eight to be a downright anemic number of threats. Many games, you might not even have a threat to cast till mid-late game. And even when you do, if your first threat gets either taken out, stolen or matched up vs. their own, you'll be scarmbling like a chicken with it's head cut off to try to find one of the other 7 threats left in the deck, and won't always be able to in time.

In a format where every decent deck plays 4 StP/Snuff Out and 2-4 other removal spells along with a bunch of countermagic, or bounce, playing just 8 threats is just asking to get screwed over.

Also, being able to swing with a 12/12 trampler for a two turn clock against fast aggro, burn and combo is a nice pro too.

[aTn]

Pernicious deed does not seem all that great of a sideboard card for Team America since for one the spell costs three and it ties up more resources which outweighs it's actual benefits. The idea of Team America is to play some of the most cost efficient utility spells in the game and just smash face with cheap but productive threats. I don't see pernicious deed anywhere in that description for it's inclusion.

Deed does not fit into that gameplan, you are right.

The thing is, in some match-ups (take for example any decent aggo or aggro control deck which plays Vial and a ton more creatures than you), TA's strategy isn't going to work, i.e. you'll very likely to lose if you stick to it.

Why? Because you don't have a lot of threats compared to these decks, you only have spot removal so there's a good chance they'll eventually swarm you and your manadenial plan is not that efficient vs. an opposing Vial. In these match-ups, it might be a good idea to switch to a more controlish playstyle and abandon TAs plan (which is fine in many other match-ups).

These observations were made by many people who consequently have chosen to play Team Europe instead of Team America. TE has 2 EE maindeck and P. Deeds in the SB. Basically against these decks, many games play out as using Goyf and disruption to slow them down, resolving and activating a Deed or EE to destroy their board mid-game, then resolving Tombstalker (if he's not already in play), backing him up against removal and winning.

[Mister Agent]

Deed does not fit into that gameplan, you are right.

The thing is, in some match-ups (take for example any decent aggo or aggro control deck which plays Vial and a ton more creatures than you), TA's strategy isn't going to work, i.e. you'll very likely to lose if you stick to it..

Of course, your first priority is to knock out opposing Aether vials since it increases your chances of winning. However, if you can't Force of Will vial that's when stifle picks up the slack. That said, you can just overrun them with an early surge of tarmogoyf and/or tombstalker supplemented with the utilization of stifle or other cards that provide relevant service.

Now if the first games go bad you can always resort to the sideboard. Assuming your talking about Vial goblins you have blue blasts and perhaps engineered plague which are plenty of tools to combat this matchup.



Why? Because you don't have a lot of threats compared to these decks, you only have spot removal so there's a good chance they'll eventually swarm you and your manadenial plan is not that efficient vs. an opposing Vial. In these match-ups, it might be a good idea to switch to a more controlish playstyle and abandon TAs plan (which is fine in many other match-ups)...

I can live with a deck that has an pretty good matchup versus most of the field. It's definitely not worth adding in cards in the sideboard/main that's going to help you in a small fraction of a metagame.



These observations were made by many people who consequently have chosen to play Team Europe instead of Team America. TE has 2 EE maindeck and P. Deeds in the SB. Basically against these decks, many games play out as using Goyf and disruption to slow them down, resolving and activating a Deed or EE to destroy their board mid-game, then resolving Tombstalker (if he's not already in play), backing him up against removal and winning.

Well I am definitely not going to argue with actual results. However, I will say this though I don't think Team America plays the same anymore without the inclusion of sinkholes. As for clearing the board Team America doesn't really require it because I am sure Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker, and cantrips wins a ton of games as is.

Just for reference here is what I am referring to: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21901

[raharu]

Deed does not fit into that gameplan, you are right.

The thing is, in some match-ups (take for example any decent aggo or aggro control deck which plays Vial and a ton more creatures than you), TA's strategy isn't going to work, i.e. you'll very likely to lose if you stick to it.

Why? Because you don't have a lot of threats compared to these decks, you only have spot removal so there's a good chance they'll eventually swarm you and your manadenial plan is not that efficient vs. an opposing Vial. In these match-ups, it might be a good idea to switch to a more controlish playstyle and abandon TAs plan (which is fine in many other match-ups).

These observations were made by many people who consequently have chosen to play Team Europe instead of Team America. TE has 2 EE maindeck and P. Deeds in the SB. Basically against these decks, many games play out as using Goyf and disruption to slow them down, resolving and activating a Deed or EE to destroy their board mid-game, then resolving Tombstalker (if he's not already in play), backing him up against removal and winning.


Just for reference here is what I am referring to: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21901

Just to make an observation on empirical data, the modifications made to make Team America into TE still didn't do anything for the aggro match, because it lost to Sligh, as the link shows. Just an observation.

[aTn]

I can live with a deck that has an pretty good matchup versus most of the field. It's definitely not worth adding in cards in the sideboard/main that's going to help you in a small fraction of a metagame.

Of course, I totally agree. The people who play TE instead of TA do it probably because their meta warrants it. I'm not saying TE or TA is better, since that statement depends on the meta you're playing in and a bunch of other stuff. (About the link you put in your post: I was referring to the same list as you).

I'm not necessarily talking about Goblins... Merfolks have been posting results in a couple of big tournaments (e.g. Beta Tundra Winter Wonderland) and start popping up everywhere.


Just to make an observation on empirical data, the modifications made to make Team America into TE still didn't do anything for the aggro match, because it lost to Sligh, as the link shows. Just an observation.

You're talking about one match in one tournament; there's no way to conclude anything from that (at least, I can't).

As for the aggro MU, people have been playing TE at local tournaments around here and they say the aggro MU is improved (when comparing to TA). Personally, I've tested it a bit and I'd say that EE and Deed (post-board) are pretty good. As far as making general statements, I'll let you test it and see.

[Frid]

Hello to everyone
My name is Hugo and although this is not my forum account (I am still waiting for its activation since november, no comment...) I would like to post some of my ideas using the account of one of my friends, because I find very interesting your deck discussions and card choices, and it was a pity for me not to be able to post some replies. All this said:

Really I didn´t "develope" or just addapt your TA lists to a different metagame, it was just casual the fact that the creator of TA and me were just working on similar decks at the same time, I even didn´t see his lists before using my first one in a tournament: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20499. Mine performed quite well during that tournament, card choices were quite good for the metagame I found and I won the tournament with a decklist that was of course still "beta".
And then I noticed the existence of a similar decklist with some differences, and I tested it. And found things that I liked and things that not. Snuff out was great, but sinkhole gave me some problems, sometimes it had a dead effect on the match, sometimes my opponent just wastelanded my underground sea and won... And I found spell snare be MVP in legacy, so I decided to mantain it in my list. But I liked a lot the snuff outs so I changed to them in the place of the smothers I had, and let the deeds in the sideboard, including two ee maindeck just to have responses maindeck to troublesome cards, specially aether vial and in general to fast aggro. And they have been working perfectly until today. That´s a bit the history of TE, just to let you know it wasn´t developed after TA, just meanwhile, but I took some ideas after watching some of the TA´s tech.
The decklist I am using right now and the one I find quite definitive (always speaking of TE, NOT TA, they´re slightly different decks as mentioned) is this one: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22402. As it was said, they work well in different metas, here in europe TE seems to perform better just because of the rise of fast aggro decks in general, and I am sure TA has a better matchup against every control deck e.g.
And just to let you know, the final I lost against sligh:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Agent View Post
Just for reference here is what I am referring to: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21901
Just to make an observation on empirical data, the modifications made to make Team America into TE still didn't do anything for the aggro match, because it lost to Sligh, as the link shows. Just an observation.

I won against that deck in the swiss defeating it by 2-0 quite easily, and in the finals just got ridiculously mana flooded, g1 I won pretty easy with a turn 2 goyf and countermagic, but games 2 and 3 I just ponderer and brainstormed and only saw lands, zero creatures in both matches. So, bad luck I assume. But the aggro matchup is definetly improved compared with TA, I would even say its pretty favorable with TE.
Just my two cents, regards from Spain

[raharu]

I won against that deck in the swiss defeating it by 2-0 quite easily, and in the finals just got ridiculously mana flooded, g1 I won pretty easy with a turn 2 goyf and countermagic, but games 2 and 3 I just ponderer and brainstormed and only saw lands, zero creatures in both matches. So, bad luck I assume. But the aggro matchup is definetly improved compared with TA, I would even say its pretty favorable with TE.
Just my two cents, regards from Spain

Well that's good to know. How do the EE's do in the agro match?

[Captain Hammer]

but games 2 and 3 I just ponderer and brainstormed and only saw lands, zero creatures in both matches. So, bad luck I assume.

I don't think that's just bad luck. I honestly feel that it's a design flaw. When you only play eight threats in the whole deck, that's bound to happen fairly often. And even more often, you're liable to get the one threat that you do find either StPed, or lost during a counterwar over the creature itself.

This is why I think testing o Dreadnought is definately warranted in the deck, to give you one more very capable beatstick. I've tested it and am convinced that it belongs. I would much rather spend two mana to lay down a 12/12 beater that says deal with me asap, and if you can't win the counterwar, then die, than blow up a land but not be able to lay down any threats for several turns while your opponent recovers from the loss the land ully.

[nitewolf9]

Spending 2 cards on a fragile threat in a deck with no way to recoup the cards invested is very risky, and also opens you up to even more removal post board in the form of krosan grip. Team America plays more disruption than other sui-type decks, and mixes it across the proactive and reactive spectrum's. In order to do this it has to make the sacrifice in the amount of threats it runs and tie everything together with the cantrips. If there were any other creatures on par with tarmogoyf and stalker they might be worth squeezing in somehow, but I don't think dreadnought is the missing link here. Also vision charm is pretty awful on its own.

[rancOr_]

Hi,

I've played TA for quite a while here in Europe. It's a very strong deck,but it defenitly lacks against certain Mu's. All the mono-coloured decks,and tribal like stuff have a great way to kick this deck.(I mean stupid white weenie decks with 4xswords/oblivion ring and plains)can easily win.
It does overpower almost all 'top tier' decks such as Dreadstill,ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh,combo etc. But I dont like the fact that in a bigger tournament u will probably face rogue decks,and loose againt them.
Another thing that is absolutely a pain for this deck is Relic of Progenitus.
Alot of decks here play it in the sideboard,or even main combined with trinketmage. I've faced a t1 relic(I fow,he fows back) followed up by a t2 relic. This is just GG,nothing u can do and that worries me a bit.

I also deciced to test Dreadnought instead of Goyf. I know it requires 2 cards,but it also has good synergy with the deck. U can first try to waste/stifle/sinkhole them so they get behind on mana,or screw their W mana sources and then just drop a dreadnought. Also,u got Vison Charm to help protect it. Yes,Krosan grip is very good vs Dreadnought,but with this mana denial package,they wont hit 3mana fast.
A bonus thing is that it takes care of ALL of TA's bad matchups(zoo decks,mono decks,sligh(although not that bad),x random rogue deck.

This is my decklist. It packs only 18lands,but it can easily afford it,because there is no G required. It's very solid and almost same as TA,but it packs dreadnought. In my testing its proven very strong so far.

4x Stifle
4x Ponder
3x Thoughtseize
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Brainstorm
3x Vision Charm
4x Sinkhole
4x Daze
4x Snuff Out
4x Force of Will
4x Tombstalker

4x Wasteland
4x Polluted Delta
4x Underground Sea
3x Flooded Strand
2x Bloodstained Mire
1x Swamp

A very good card so far in the sideboard was Winter Orb. It's a real pain for
all the controlish decks around,and it doesnt rly effect u.

[jazzykat]

Hi,

I've played TA for quite a while here in Europe. It's a very strong deck,but it defenitly lacks against certain Mu's. All the mono-coloured decks,and tribal like stuff have a great way to kick this deck.(I mean stupid white weenie decks with 4xswords/oblivion ring and plains)can easily win.
It does overpower almost all 'top tier' decks such as Dreadstill,ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh,combo etc. But I dont like the fact that in a bigger tournament u will probably face rogue decks,and loose againt them.
Another thing that is absolutely a pain for this deck is Relic of Progenitus.
Alot of decks here play it in the sideboard,or even main combined with trinketmage. I've faced a t1 relic(I fow,he fows back) followed up by a t2 relic. This is just GG,nothing u can do and that worries me a bit.

I also deciced to test Dreadnought instead of Goyf. I know it requires 2 cards,but it also has good synergy with the deck. U can first try to waste/stifle/sinkhole them so they get behind on mana,or screw their W mana sources and then just drop a dreadnought. Also,u got Vison Charm to help protect it. Yes,Krosan grip is very good vs Dreadnought,but with this mana denial package,they wont hit 3mana fast.
A bonus thing is that it takes care of ALL of TA's bad matchups(zoo decks,mono decks,sligh(although not that bad),x random rogue deck.

This is my decklist. It packs only 18lands,but it can easily afford it,because there is no G required. It's very solid and almost same as TA,but it packs dreadnought. In my testing its proven very strong so far.

4x Stifle
4x Ponder
3x Thoughtseize
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Brainstorm
3x Vision Charm
4x Sinkhole
4x Daze
4x Snuff Out
4x Force of Will
4x Tombstalker

4x Wasteland
4x Polluted Delta
4x Underground Sea
3x Flooded Strand
2x Bloodstained Mire
1x Swamp

A very good card so far in the sideboard was Winter Orb. It's a real pain for
all the controlish decks around,and it doesnt rly effect u.

I think your assessment of TA's strengths and weaknesses are dead on. However, your deck looks a fair amount like Dreadstalker. Also, the fact that you are a 2 color deck is very nice given the low land count.

[Mister Agent]

Referring to Rancor:

I am confused of running Dreadnought instead of Tarmogoyf in this archetype. You run Tarmogoyf because it's the best creature in the format and unlike Dreadnought Tarmogoyf sends a message to you to run better cards then horrid Vision Charm.

Team America should also be running no less then 4 Thoughtseizes. Thoughtseize is a relevant instrument at making sure your opponent has a tougher time recovering from TA's mana denial suite.

[Captain Hammer]

No one runs Dreadnought instead of Tarmogoyf. They play Dreadnought along side Tarmogoyf.

Ask any Dreadstill player anywhere and they will tell you that Dreadnought is also one of the very best threats in the format.

Why play only the 8 best threats in a format filled to the brims with pinpoint removal, when you can instead play the 12 best threats in the format to ensure that you always see one every game, and can recover quickly even if your first threat gets StPed or Countered.

[Mister Agent]

No one runs Dreadnought instead of Tarmogoyf. They play Dreadnought along side Tarmogoyf.

Ask any Dreadstill player anywhere and they will tell you that Dreadnought is also one of the very best threats in the format.

Why play only the 8 best threats in a format filled to the brims with pinpoint removal, when you can instead play the 12 best threats in the format to ensure that you always see one every game, and can recover quickly even if your first threat gets StPed or Countered.

I was actually referring to Rancor and not Dreadstill. Dreadnought is hardly one of the best creatures in this format since it takes two cards to make him relevant. While Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker don't even require obscure prerequisites to play.

Eight threats is plenty in the likes of Team America since it runs several cost efficient disruption spells and when your able to restrict players from casting utility cards via mana denial you can just cantrip and win with the original eight creatures.

[Captain Hammer]

I was actually referring to Rancor and not Dreadstill. Dreadnought is hardly one of the best creatures in this format since it takes two cards to make him relevant. While Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker don't even require obscure prerequisites to play.

If Dreadnought really is such a crappy threat, then explain to me why many of the Dreadstill lists that splash green still often play just 3 Goyf and 4 Dreadnought?

Yes it takes two cards. But it also wins in two turns, you can't just ignore that fact as if it's irrelevent. And Tombstalker requires a prerequisite to play as well, it requires 5-6 cards in the yard to play.

[Mister Agent]

If Dreadnought really is such a crappy threat, then explain to me why many of the Dreadstill lists that splash green still often play just 3 Goyf and 4 Dreadnought?

Yes it takes two cards. But it also wins in two turns, you can't just ignore that fact as if it's irrelevent. And Tombstalker requires a prerequisite to play as well, it requires 5-6 cards in the yard to play.

I never said Dreadnought was a bad threat I just said it isn't one of the best creatures. Besides I think Dreadstill wins because of counterbalance and standstill which compliments Dreadnought pretty well making the threat extremely more potent then otherwise.

As for Tombstalker, yes it does have a prerequisite but at least it doesn't require another card to make it a valid threat.

[Jak]

Also, most builds of Dreadstill don't even play with Goyf. I know, some do, but IMO straight Ur builds are the best.

And Nought is seriously horrible for this deck. Dreadstill can protect it and even if it does get destroyed it has Standstill and CB to recoup the 2 for 1.

[Skeggi]

There are also alot of match-ups where you want to side out the Stifles. With Dreadnought you're bound to them.

I've been playing TA (Team Africa; the skinny version of Team America) for a little while now, and I often miss a few beaters. That's why I'm currently testing 2 Nyxalith...can't really say anything useful about it though :cool:.

[Mister Agent]

Yes it takes two cards. But it also wins in two turns, you can't just ignore that fact as if it's irrelevent. And Tombstalker requires a prerequisite to play as well, it requires 5-6 cards in the yard to play.

Oh I guess we should all stop playing Tarmogoyf then since it requires a instant, sorcery, artifact, etc. in the yard as well. Seems fair.

At least Tombstalker doesn't require a "specific card" to make it lethal while you can't really say the samething for Dreadnought. There is a difference.

[rancOr_]

Hi,

About the sideboard,what do you prefer?
I think that more aggro-based decks are getting popular here,like merfolk has been popping up all of a sudden.
I'm thinking about the following:
3 Krosan Grip
3 tormod's crypt
4 blue blasts
3 engineered plague
2 diabolic edict/reanimate

Any suggestions,ideas on how to improve the sb?
I know its metagame dependant but still.

[Skeggi]

I'm currently playing the following list:

Sweating Bullets, Team ADHD. Maindeck:

4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Nyxathid

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Sinkhole
3 Snuff Out

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Flooded Strand
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Krosan Grip

As you can see: no Stifles and more creatures. I really love Nyxathid, he's a real beater. But to support him, you need more discard. I guess this version plays a bit more like Eva Green with a blue splash (it really plays the minimum of blue spells to support FoW). I know the mana base isn't optimal, but it's simply the best I have for now.

So far the deck plays really well and I haven't lost alot in testing. Which is another way of saying that I've won alot...in testing...

[Ch@os]

Omg, another "cool things" build.

Nyxathid is really bad in a LD heavy deck like TA, even with -4 Stifle +4 Hymn.
Also i would never run FoW with only 16 blue cards.

[Skeggi]

Omg, another "cool things" build.
That's constructive. Thanks.

Nyxathid is really bad in a LD heavy deck like TA, even with -4 Stifle +4 Hymn.
Actually, as I said in an earlier post I was testing Nyxathid. Now, after testing, I'll tell you why he rocks. It basically boils down to this: if he's big, your opponent has been playing spells (or you have been raping his hand with discard) and you can swing for the win. If he's small, the LD is working and your opponent can't do anything, so you're winning anyway.

Also i would never run FoW with only 16 blue cards.
I agree, the FoW with only 16 blue cards plays a bit like 'Fow-lite', but I still get the chances often enough to stop that 1 spell that could turn the game.

[Unknown2]

Actually, as I said in an earlier post I was testing Nyxathid. Now, after testing, I'll tell you why he rocks. It basically boils down to this: if he's big, your opponent has been playing spells (or you have been raping his hand with discard) and you can swing for the win. If he's small, the LD is working and your opponent can't do anything, so you're winning anyway.


Basically, you just admited to Nyxathid being an overkill card, you know.

If you are raping him with discard spells, or if he is playing all his spells (which is mostly likely a counter-threat or an answer to your threats), you're already in a decent position.

And, if your opponent has 4+ cards in hand, he can't do anything anyway, so your other creatures that you have out already can just continue their beating.

Also, if he's a good player, he's probably holding back some creature kill such as swords, or snuff out, etc, which is counterable, but you still need to keep this in mind.

Also, i would only really consider Nyxathid if he had some type on invasion, as you already have tarmogoyf for your ground beats

[deadlock]

I recently picked up this deck and i have to say this is the first aggro-control deck i like. The huge tempo plays is really a new feeling for someone who has played control most of the time. I also like to use my own life as a ressource to gain advantage :laugh:

Anyway i wonder why there is so little discussion about the deck, is it because people hate this deck for killing of hand and land, while playing powerful blue cards?
Or is it because the maindeck is so tight that there is little room for improvement? I still struggle with the manabase, its quite irritating not being able to fall back to "save" basic lands. Not sure if i should add that basic swamp, maybe even an Island.

About the sideboard, currently i play the pretty basic version of:
4 BEB (should this be Hydroblast to just be able to dump it in the yard to help a Tombstalker enter the battle?)
4 Grip (four because i want the maximum number against very annoying cards like CB, Relic, Bloodmoon)
3 Tormods Crypt (three is fine i think)
2 Reanimate (not sure about this one, because reanimating a Stalker is very painful, so it works with the Goyfs only)
2 Diabolic Edict (pretty standard, still wondering about some kind of mass removal like EE or Deed, both too slow in the end i think)

So nothing really new in this post, just wanted to encourage some discussion about this deck.

[Skeggi]

4 BEB (should this be Hydroblast to just be able to dump it in the yard to help a Tombstalker enter the battle?)
I think you've answered your own question. You could opt for a split too, to avoid Meddling Mages...but I've actually never encountered a Meddling Mage naming 'Hydroblast' so you should be safe :wink:. Extirpate on Hydroblast is also more than rare.

4 Grip (four because i want the maximum number against very annoying cards like CB, Relic, Bloodmoon)
How do you intent to play Grip on Bloodmoon? Ofcourse, when your opponent plays Bloodmoon, and you have Grip in hand and enough lands untapped, you can tap for mana before Bloodmoon enters play, and play Grip after that, but this is rather situational. If you fear Bloodmoons I guess a pre-emptive Seal of Primordium works better, or Pernicious Deed even.

3 Tormods Crypt (three is fine i think)
I prefer Leylines myself, but if you play those, 4-of is a must...


2 Reanimate (not sure about this one, because reanimating a Stalker is very painful, so it works with the Goyfs only)
It also works on the creatures you've discarded from your opponent's hand. Tech!

[GtF]

I think the deck is quite good, but there's not all that much you can change about it without weakening it quite a bit, which is maybe why it's not being that discussed on here. Here's my thoughts on your comments.

hydroblast/BeB I would split 2 and 2 if you run the full 4. When would you ever board into hydroblast and then play it WITHOUT a target just to get food for tombstalker? Seems way too situational. The real reason for the split is cabal therapy, which you might see out of goblins.

3 crypt is not enough. Unless you want to lose to dredge. I play 4 and I'm considering adding another card, but I want it to be something that has at least some application outside that matchup. Engineered explosives seems ok because it could have some utility against elf combo and maybe goblins while nerfing zombie tokens, pithing needles, and chalices against dredge. Anyone have any other suggestions?

4 grip on the other hand seems like too many. What are you taking out for all those grips? You will almost never kill a blood moon with a krosan grip, though I guess you still might want it for trinisphere against dragon stompy.

Don't be too hesitant to use reanimate on a tombstalker, at least if you're playing against a control deck without much damage dealing capacity. Who cares if you end the game at 1 life if tombstalker wins you the game? Just figure out if you can do it and if you can go for it.

[deadlock]

First of, thanks for the answers.

Concerning Blast, the only matchup i can think of where it might be relevant is Ugr Thresh, where you could side in Blasts and risk to actually run into Divert.

About Grip, with Dreadstill and CB around i was under the impression that four is the correct number. I admit that the chances are low that you have it in your hand and be able to cast it when Bloodmoon hits (foremost Dragonstompy in mind here).

Leyline needs Dark Ritual to be effective i think, so i will stay with Crypts. Sadly i have no expierence with Ichorid, just thought its not heavily played so i get away with cutting a Crypt.

Forgot about Reanimate can target creatures in my enemys graveyard too, my bad.

EDIT:
Just saw the coverage of the Grand Prix trials / Dan's sideboard choices.
Could you please comment the board, i am wondering about the Darkblasts foremost. Dredge synergize with the beaters, but are there relevant x/1 to pick off outside Lackey and Confidant? It does work well with Plague though, which seems like a good choice considering the tribal decks and it deals damage to Ichorid too.

[nitewolf9]

Hey guys,

Just got back from the GP. I was pretty excited to win the Trial I entered, especially as I beat Dragon Stompy with no blasts in my board in the finals. I did however lose 3 matches in a row in the event, which was frustrating.

After winning a match against TES I played against survival with vials/tops/bobs, which was pretty bad for me, and lost a close 3 game set. It was also against a very good player (national champ right now), so I wasn't too upset to lose a matchup I was behind in to him. The next 2 rounds were goyf sligh, goyf sligh, and I just couldn't get there. Those were frustrating matchups and close, but they had the right burn at the right time. Not much I can do there.

As for the darkblasts in the board I really liked them. They answer bob, who is a problem, and let you have a combat trick in those same matchups if they don't stick that annoying card. They are good against survival decks and tribal, and were there to have a versatile solution to Merfolk (alongside Plagues) and even Dredge (with plagues they are surprisingly strong here).

With Plague and Darkblast, Hydroblasts seemed redundant. They might have helped against sligh but I wasn't really expecting a lot of burn decks. I just happened to get paired against 2 of them, which was kind of a beating. All in all I really liked the board and beat Scepter-still, TES, the mirror, Fairy Stompy, and Dragon Stompy in the trial. I also played a side event and went 5-0, beating 2 Dreadstill decks, the mirror (sorry Eric, even though you got there and I didn't...bastard) and an ANT deck, and then lost to Lanstill and Dredge in the last 2 rounds at 3 and 4 AM in the morning to miss top 4 by .001% in breakers. Damn.

The deck is great and I don't think I would change anything outside of the sideboard right now. I was kind of "meh" about Stifle alot of the time, but I think Dave convinced me that it needs to stay in.

[deadlock]

Stifle along with Daze (on the draw) is the card i frequently side out / cut down to 2 (to keep up the blue card count), but it can randomly win the game together with another piece of land destruction.

I struggle against Stax, but think this will not change. The best thing i can hope is, to be on the play and that they lose to themselves.

nitewolf would you mind to put up some kind of tournament report, i am quite interested in how the GP paned out for you.

It is interesting that Eva Green has performed better with TA supposed to be the more consistent deck. This may be related to the total number of players of both decks or is it the power of Dark Rit + Choke from the sideboard?

On question concerning sideboard strategy, i often want to side out Daze on the draw, but dont know if 16 blue cards make FoW difficult to cast. So the question is, should i just cut like 2 Dazes and other cards or cut all of them if needed?
An example would be the Goblin matchup on the draw, with the suggested sideboard i want to bring in
4 Plague
2 Darkblast
2 Reanimate
and maybe Grip if i fear Chalice (dont know if this will be brought in by Goblin players against TA).
If they dont play black then i may leave Reanimate in the board.

[Koby]

What about Psychatog in place of Nyxathid? It can win games alone and still pitchable to FoW in a pinch.

Obvious dyssynergy with Goyf, but when you get 'Tog out you're likely going to win one way or another.

[nitewolf9]

What about Psychatog in place of Nyxathid? It can win games alone and still pitchable to FoW in a pinch.

Obvious dyssynergy with Goyf, but when you get 'Tog out you're likely going to win one way or another.

When did Nyxathid become a consideration? Also, Psychatog is garbage. Not only does he not play well with Tombstalker, but Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker do his job way more effectively. Pitching to Force is pretty much all he would do. That and I don't really know what you are cutting to fit him in.

[deadlock]

After playing against various decks, i need some advice how to beat Affinity.

In general hitting their lands doesnt help that much, because of Vial and Drums and going one for one with Grip isnt too good either.
I fear the following cards most: Disciple, Ravager, Plating attached to anything and Master of Etherium.
I have the feeling that without some kind of mass removal it is really hard to stop them. Do you think EE set @1 might be effective? It hits Disciple, Drums, Vial and Arcbound Worker. Set @2 could be good too (Ravager and Cranial Plating come to my mind).
The other solution would be Energy Flux, which is kind of narrow - but may be helpful against Stax and Stompy decks too.



Concerning Engineerd Plague versus Ichorid, what do you name with your first (and often only) Plague? Yesterday i named Horror, but the Bridges still produced the Zombie tokens, which killed me in the end. I felt kind of helpless without Crypt in this matchup.

[Tinefol]

Run maindeck or at least s/b Pernicious Deed against Affinity. About two maindeck is certainly a viable choice. It helps in a variety of matches (any tribal aggro comes to mind, prison decks, enchantress, etc) and doesn't hurt you that much as Stalker is pretty much immune to it, and goyf can be postponed.

[deadlock]

I considered Deed first, but dismissed for being quite slow afterwards (in the SB - the maindeck is fine imo).
On the other hand, it could replace the Plagues (and Darkblasts). Need to test this.
Also i really miss the blue Blasts in the board, i 'll try to make room for at least 3 in the process of trying some cards.

Other cards i am considering:
Do or Die
Infest
Energy Flux
Engineerd Explosives
Hidden Gibbons Oo

[nitewolf9]

Let me just say that I have never been happy with Deed in this deck. It is the epitome of slow and you just aren't built to take advantage of it. It seems cool in theory but never works out that way. This is coming from testing experience with the card, both here AND in the more traditional Sui decks.

The only real reason Plagues are in the board is because of Merfolk, and possibly Elves. Goblins is not really hard to beat with TA but Merfolk is a nightmare without Plague. Deed is not going to help you nearly as much in these matchups.

I don't know how you guys are having trouble against affinity, honestly. Granted pre-board your LD plan and the discard can be kind of weak but Tarmogoyf is just so big and Snuff Out is bad for them. Post board you take out Sinkhole and Thoughtseize and bring in Grips, Edicts, and a couple of Plagues. You can also cut a couple of Stifles for the Darkblasts. Plague names beast (Ravager) or human (hits disciple and also confidant as they might have him), and you just blow up whatever threat they play. They play stuff like Ornithopter and Vial, which you can just ignore, and things like Frogmite that just look silly when you play Tarmogoyf. I duno, I've played against it a bunch of times in tournaments and I just don't think it's very strong. Maybe I was just really lucky all those times.

[deadlock]

Thanks for the quick reply, i will use your advice the next time i encounter this matchup.

More general, in which situations do you side out specific cards?
Usually my plan looks like this:

-Sinkhole: If they run a manabase with a large amount of basics / just basics.
Or if their manacurve is very low / they have other ways to cheat stuff into play (eg Vial).

-Daze: I cut two on the draw most of the time (four if i need room desperatly), because of the tempo lose.

-Thoughtseize: Have difficulties with this one. Sometimes just one if i dont want to see more than one in a game, because i cant bear the life lose. Also against decks that tend to go into topdeck mode quickly.

-Snuff Out: Difficult aswell. If there is no target or very few (eg. Eva Green) i may cut some / all. Also against decks that run burn i am inclined to cut them.

-Stifle: If they have not more than ~4 cards that can be hit, i tend to side out 1-4. Cutting all four doesnt happen that often. An example is Merfolk, they dont have Fetchlands, but it can still hit Wasteland and Relics.

-Fow: Very seldom, maybe if i could too many blue spells i go down with the Fow's aswell - against decks were i dont expect a 'real' threat / just have so many powerful things from the board.

-Wasteland: Never till now, even if there is no real target. Often i bring in cmc 3 stuff from the board, so at least it helps to cast this stuff. Could see to cut ~2 if i am desperate for room and they have no targets for it.

-Beater/Cantrips: Never

[nitewolf9]

That boarding logic seems fine. What I usually do is just shuffle in all 15 cards from my board, cut the obvious/irrelevant cards, and then look at the deck and try to make the best 60 I can think of in the matchup (taking into consideration what they may be doing against me). It's almost like building a sealed deck. This technique really helps you formulate a plan as opposed to just trying to bring in a little bit of this and a pinch of that because they are just good cards to have. It also prevents people from knowing exactly how many cards you are bringing in.

[nitewolf9]

Thanks. This looks reasonable, although I dont like that one must change protectors very often, lest the SB cards are easily distinguishable by less damaged sleeves..

Yeah, you just rotate the sleeves every couple of rounds and avoid this problem. Generally speaking though I usually use fresh sleeves before any major tournament, which helps.

[Nantuko]

I like a lot the last list of Dan and the sideboard too,but I have 2 pairings that not see too much good,burn and pikula/eva green.
How do you sideboard vs this pairings??

Thanks and congrats

[deadlock]

Black aggro control / suicide black is quite manageable in my expierence. The blue "splash" is really worth it here.
In this matchup i would bring in both Reanimate and Diabolic Edict. Watch out for Choke from Eva Green and sometimes they have Jitte.

Burn is bad, there isnt much that can change this, even if you bring in 4 Blasts.
Keep a counter for Price of Progress and play as few lands as possible, Daze where you can. Darkblast and Edict could be brought in against these 3/1 Sparks.

My current SB:
4 Grip
4 Plague
3 Edict
2 Needle
2 Hydroblast

Both Reanimate and Darkblast are nice to have, but have not been in a situation where they were necessary. So i try out these too.
Most important Neelde targets are
Vial, Relic and Top After these there are Shackles, EE / Deed and maybe Seismic Assault. They also take some pressure from the Grips in the Counterbalance matchup, where Top can be the deadlier threat.

About the Blasts, i am not sure if there worthwhile as a two-of, but i really like to have them for a couple of bad matchups.