[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

[Nantuko]

I win this Saturday the 5ºLEL tournament with 38 people.

RW Goblins 2-0
UGW countertop ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh 2-1
Ichorid 2-1
Aggro Loam 2-0
5º and 6º round ID

Top 8 BW Aggro 2-1
Top4 RW Goblins 2-0
Final White Stax 2-1

I play Signorini GP Trials list and I like a lot,but I not have sb for the ichorid and stax matchup :P

I think TA continues being a good deck for legacy

[anjo]

I just wonder why you aren't including Spell snare in TA? It seems like it's the best counterspel in the format so maybe squeeze in 2-3?

[URABAHN]

I just wonder why you aren't including Spell snare in TA? It seems like it's the best counterspel in the format so maybe squeeze in 2-3?

Since when did Spell Snare become the best Counterspell in the format? What would you cut for 2-3 Spell Snare?

[Koby]

Since Counterbalance and Goyf becomes the two most heavily played permanents.

[humppa]

Because Spell Snare is slow?
You need mana for your threats - Stalker, Goyf - or disruption - Sinkhole, Thoughtseize.

To protect your game, you wanna play free spells - FoW, Daze, Snuff Out.

You don't want to tap lands for mana for protecting spells...

Tempo.

[KillemallCFH]

Since Counterbalance and Goyf becomes the two most heavily played permanents.Until Spell Snare is free, it will be inferior to Force and Daze. While it certainly is a good card, there is no room in the deck for it without cutting more important cards. Sure, you could cut, say, 1 Sinkhole, 1 Ponder, 1 Snuff Out for 3 Snares, and you wouldn't be off that much worse, but then your LD strategy will suffer, your consistency will suffer, and you'll be more susceptible to resolved creatures. This deck thrives on the consistency of its 4-ofs. Also, having to choose between keeping mana up or hitting their land/playing a threat isn't a position you want to be in. It plays 12 free spells for a reason.

[nitewolf9]

I've tried Spell Snare before and I wasn't really impressed. Even though there are a lot of great targets for it, it's still really conditional and requires you to leave mana up which I don't like having to do in a deck that plays sinkhole. This is one reason I don't really like Stifle, but I will cede that it is probably a necessary evil for the LD suite to work like it does.

[ansset]

Also, Stifle stops opposing Wastelands which are, I hear, really good against this deck.

News at 11.

[AnwarA101]

I've tried Spell Snare before and I wasn't really impressed. Even though there are a lot of great targets for it, it's still really conditional and requires you to leave mana up which I don't like having to do in a deck that plays sinkhole. This is one reason I don't really like Stifle, but I will cede that it is probably a necessary evil for the LD suite to work like it does.

Have anyone tried Force Spike in the Stifle slot? If you are going to keep mana open at least you can do so to counter any spell. It can act like Daze 5-8 and still support the mana disruption in that your opponent won't likely have extra mana with Sinkhole and Wasteland.

[LegacyDan]

Have anyone tried Force Spike in the Stifle slot? If you are going to keep mana open at least you can do so to counter any spell. It can act like Daze 5-8 and still support the mana disruption in that your opponent won't likely have extra mana with Sinkhole and Wasteland.

You already got enough counterspells so Daze 5-8 really isn't an issue, IMHO.

[nitewolf9]

The thing that I don't like about Force Spike is that it still has the problem of requiring you to leave mana open. That's why I liked the idea of trying Portent in that spot, because you can use it to find more LD or more free countermagic, and in some situations keep your opponent mana screwed. It also helps you find threats faster.
I'm still not convinced that Portent is not the way to go, but Stifle is a very hard card to quantify.

[AnwarA101]

The thing that I don't like about Force Spike is that it still has the problem of requiring you to leave mana open. That's why I liked the idea of trying Portent in that spot, because you can use it to find more LD or more free countermagic, and in some situations keep your opponent mana screwed. It also helps you find threats faster.
I'm still not convinced that Portent is not the way to go, but Stifle is a very hard card to quantify.

Stifle is either going to be amazing such on an early fetchland, Goblin Ringleader, Pernicious Deed, and others or it will be almost completely dead. It is rarely ever somewhere in the middle. In that sense its quality varies against the decks and the situations in which it comes up.

Portent might not be a bad call. It will help you find the more reliable LD spells (Sinkhole and Wasteland) as well anything else you might need. Have you tried playing it Portent? I would be curious about the results.

[nitewolf9]

I tried it out for a bit and it seemed promising. Might be worth going back and testing it more. With that many cantrips it also might free up some board room. The thing I always liked about older threshold lists was the fact that they could find anything whenever they needed to.

[KillemallCFH]

Portent seems pretty reasonable. I've never been overly impressed with Stifle as LD due to how conditional it is and how easy it is to play around. However, I'm also a little uncomfortable going down to 8 LD, though the presence of 12 cantrips should ideally make them easy enough to find with consistency.

[URABAHN]

Since Counterbalance and Goyf becomes the two most heavily played permanents.

I don't see many decks with blue running Spell Snare even though the above is the case. I would think a combo deck like TES would run 4x Spell Snare as an answer to those 2 cards. Care to tell us why more decks aren't running blue and running Spell Snare to combat Counterbalance and Goyf? Spell Snare lags (http://www.deckcheck.net/format.php?format=Legacy#) way behind Force of Will and is played about half as much as Counterspell. Is the Legacy Community missing something by not using Spell Snare in every single deck including a Tempo-Based deck like Team America?

[LegacyDan]

I don't see many decks with blue running Spell Snare even though the above is the case. I would think a combo deck like TES would run 4x Spell Snare as an answer to those 2 cards. Care to tell us why more decks aren't running blue and running Spell Snare to combat Counterbalance and Goyf? Spell Snare lags (http://www.deckcheck.net/format.php?format=Legacy#) way behind Force of Will and is played about half as much as Counterspell. Is the Legacy Community missing something by not using Spell Snare in every single deck including a Tempo-Based deck like Team America?


That is what seems weird to me, most people playing blue can find room for Spell Snares but lots of them don't even try. Ya would figure that if a card stop Counterbalance/Tarmogoyf/Dark Confidant and various other 2CMC threats them they would play tha hell out of it. Seems kinda odd to me, but I guess I have been wrong before.

[jazzykat]

In my experience spell snare is astounding for 2 reasons. 1. It answers most of the most dangerous permanents in the format. 2. It's a tempo boost that makes it easier to play around daze.

It is my preference to play another threat before I played a conditional answer. I.e. before I play spell snare, I'm going to play Goyf, CB, and Confidant.

[Skeggi]

Daze has it's downsides too. There are often cases where you don't want to return a land to your hand because it disrupts your tempo, while you have an untapped land: not enough to hardcast Daze, but you can cast Spell Snare. Also the fact that Spell Snare is a hard counter appeals to me. But as Dan pointed out, Spell Snare isn't as good against cards that don't have cmc2 :wink:.

[jazzykat]

In TA in particular, Daze is far superior due to your massive LD package. The opponent will infrequently have extra mana unless your plan went exceptionally wrong.

[Happy Gilmore]

Portent seems pretty reasonable. I've never been overly impressed with Stifle as LD due to how conditional it is and how easy it is to play around. However, I'm also a little uncomfortable going down to 8 LD, though the presence of 12 cantrips should ideally make them easy enough to find with consistency.

This is very true, But I would probably suggest 10 cantrips and 10 creatures. Problem is, right now I don't see any good threats I want to play on top of goyf and stalker. That being said, Cantrips help you find them much easier.

[gamegeek2]

I agree with the statement that this deck is too creature light. I would try to fit some Predators somewhere in here, honestly...

[Raptor]

In my experience spell snare is astounding for 2 reasons. 1. It answers most of the most dangerous permanents in the format. 2. It's a tempo boost that makes it easier to play around daze.

It is my preference to play another threat before I played a conditional answer. I.e. before I play spell snare, I'm going to play Goyf, CB, and Confidant.

I agree with you. Spell Snare, in Team America, is one of the best tempo boost card. Especially agaisnt threshold, where you can Spell Snare their Daze !

[zulander]

Why would you ever spell snare daze???

[ansset]

zu, you just got trolled.

[Raptor]

zu, you just got trolled.

I was not trolling, just being a bit sarcastic :p

On a more serious note, I've some questions about Team America.
Do you find this deck mulligan hungry or inconsistant ?
I mean, if you have no draw or threat in your hand, will only disruption or tempo cards be enough ?

Also, is reanimate in SB an option ? You run Stifle MD, a "stolen" dread still could be nice, or even a tarmogoyf could turn out the game..
By the way, how is your match up agaisnt merfolk ?

[DalkonCledwin]

SSSSSSSSSSOOOOOOOOOOO

Just wanted to post and say... NiteWolf was NOT the first one to use the name "Team America" in relation to the Game Magic the Gathering. The name had already been used on the Casual Forum of MTGSalvation in the year 2005... sorry guys, but you are parading around with the name of one of the silliest damned casual decks I have ever seen in my life...

Kind of makes you laugh at how serious THIS Team America deck happens to be...

For those who are interested Here (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=13415) is the thread of the ORIGINAL Team America deck...

[Skeggi]

Do you find this deck mulligan hungry or inconsistant ?
I mean, if you have no draw or threat in your hand, will only disruption or tempo cards be enough ?

With 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponders and a bunch of fetches it's pretty consistent. Disruption and tempo is usually enough, you'll draw into that threat soon enough.


Also, is reanimate in SB an option ? You run Stifle MD, a "stolen" dread still could be nice, or even a tarmogoyf could turn out the game..
Reanimate is even a good option in the main. It's alot of fun to Thoughtseize the opponent's Tarmogoyf for instance, and reanimate him the next turn (while you can use your landdrop for a Wasteland on your opponent's Trop for instance). Reanimate in the main is in my opinion a very viable choice if you run Hymn to Tourach instead of Sinkholes.

...
No-one cares.

[Dr.AgOn]

SSSSSSSSSSOOOOOOOOOOO

Just wanted to post and say... NiteWolf was NOT the first one to use the name "Team America" in relation to the Game Magic the Gathering. The name had already been used on the Casual Forum of MTGSalvation in the year 2005... sorry guys, but you are parading around with the name of one of the silliest damned casual decks I have ever seen in my life...

Kind of makes you laugh at how serious THIS Team America deck happens to be...

For those who are interested Here (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=13415) is the thread of the ORIGINAL Team America deck...

aaaah, I get it. They named it that way cause it's red, white, blue - just like the flag *enlightment* xD

[deadlock]

Please keep unrelated stuff out of the thread and post it in some cozy-corner thread.

Following the discussion in the Eva Green thread about Putrid Leech, has someone considered it for TA in order to up the threat density?
The biggest advantage seems to be that its not gy at all, were the downside is that it puts an even heavier strain on your life total.

Any other ideas?

[Skeggi]

I've upped my threat count by adding two Nyxathids, but later I removed them because usually they were underwhelming, and frankly, I didn't really need more beaters. I must admit that sometimes, extra bodies do come in handy, but this card looks a bit too small to me, while TA wants to play very big threats. I think I'd prefer Reanimate. I've also seen lists running a singleton Terravore, which seems like a good possible extra threat, better than Putrid Leech.

[lolosoon]

Errr... I thought Lorescale Coatl had one of the best chances of beeing beatstick #9-10 in TA...

Or, as he is a bad topdeck, has it been dismissed completly ?!

[deadlock]

It hasnt been dismissed completly, but in my opinion its inferior to Leech, which is also quite debatable.
-It costs three (quite a disadvantage in this deck)
-It starts small and grows slowly (not counting the BS after Coatl play, which happens too seldom to rely on.
Compared to Leech, which comes down at least a turn earlier. At least because i am used to shuffle away my third land if i have the possibility, which couldnt be done with Coatl.
Also it can immediately can block a 3/4 Goyf, where Coatl can do so 3 turns later at earlierst, without the help of cantrips.

As i see it, Coatl currently struggles to find ANY home in a legacy deck and TA doesnt look like the right fit, due to named reasons + the lack of draw effects.

That doesn mean that i am advocating the addition of Leech, just want to keep the discussion going.
My biggest problem with the deck is that the heavy land destruction theme is not that useful in quite some matchups, compared to Ugr Tempo ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, were the burn is useful most of the times. Which implies (sadly) that TA is a metagame deck :( (or at least is not that good in certain metas).

[coraz86]

I seldom find myself wanting more beaters; I usually want to be able to find enough disruption to let my one or two go the distance. If you're looking for more, though, think about a couple Dreadnoughts (since you're running Stifles anyway; it gives you a way to use the late-game ones that may just be hanging around).
Or, as discussed in other threads, you could drop a couple Vendillion Cliques in here. It's a three-power flyer with flash, which is cool, but it can also either be further disruption if your opponent is holding stuff or it can flush chaff out of your own hand.

[deadlock]

I talk about the cases, were you have a disruption heavy draw, but cant follow it up with a beater in time and the opponent can recover.
Dreadnought is bad in here for obvious reasons, you cant search abd protect him as well as Dreadstill can.
Clique looks good except that it costs 3 mana with UU in it, which can be problematic sometimes. Not to mention the small ass. :<

[nitewolf9]

What would you guys even cut for more creatures? I'm not sure I'd want anything else, although Clique might be ok since he actually kinda/sorta disrupts as well. The only 4 flexible slots seem to be stifle, but that card seems necessary to me the more I try the deck without it.

[keys]

Can someone tell me how the matchup analysis of Team America differs from Ugr Tempo Thresh?

Is Zoo and Burn (and everything in between) a significant problem for this deck? It seems like taking 1 from Fetches and FoWs, 2 from Thoughtseize, and 4 from Snuff Out creates a bit of a risk against decks that can do 10+ damage EOT with Price of Progress, Fireblast, and Lightning Bolts.

Does the strength of the black splash really make up for its fragility (relative to UGR variants)?

[nitewolf9]

Tombstalker is a much better threat than Mongoose, this deck has a much better combo matchup on the backs of Thoughtseize and Sinkhole, and Snuff Out kills Tarmogoyfs when you don't have your own in play. Sinkhole also makes your LD plan much more reliable. But you are correct, this deck is generally going to be worse against aggro, but it's not that bad.

If I expected alot of goyf sligh UGR would probably be better, but in that case you could also run BEBs in the board of this deck.

[georgjorge]

Two quick questions...

How do you board against Aggro Loam - do you board out LD in the face of 26 lands and Loam or not, and what do you board in ?

When I play Aggro Loam, I side out Chalices on the draw against this deck, on the basis that both Stifle and Thoughtseize will be played before I reach two mana, and that against a deck with land destruction, I need to play something stronger if I reach two mana (Goyf/Loam/Confidant). On the play, I'm unsure...would you say that's the right decision ?

Thanks !

[keys]

georgjorge: sorry I can't really help you since I'm pretty inexperienced with the deck myself, but I have to think sideboarding out LD for Extirpates/Crypts would be part of the plan.


Unrelated question: how come Engineered Explosives isn't played more in Team America? It seems like it would be a really good supplement to Snuff Out in a three color deck with no 1cc permanents.

It's really good versus swarm decks and shrouded dudes, which Snuff Out can't contain very well, plus it hits tokens and pesky artifacts like Chalice, Vial and SDT (granted we have K Grip in the SB already, but I think multiple answers to a resolved Chalice is a good idea).

Using the typical maindeck, I propose this SB:

4 Engineered Plague
4 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip
2 Hydroblast
2 Engineered Explosives

[deadlock]

Personally, i would reduce my ld package and mainly try to stick 1-2 threats, protect them and deny theirs. While ld can be quite good against Aggro Loam, it can suck aswell in other games, depending on their draw.

Actual sb strategy depends on the board you run ofc, mine looks like this:

SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [TE] Diabolic Edict
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [B] Blue Elemental Blast

On the play, i propably would go for:
+2-3 Blast
+3 Edict
-4 Sinkhole (You still have Wastelands and Stifle to slow them down).
-1 Stifle (Maybe cutting more for Grip if i fear Chalice that much)

On the draw, side out Dazes and maybe go for ~2 Grips just in case, beside cutting Sinkholes.


Concerning EE, foremost its slow. The only creature with Shroud that matters is Geese, which gets outclassed by our threats. Against swarm decks there is Plague (if they are tribal) or spot removal.
Btw. some people may try to kill you for running Extirpate in this deck..

[keys]

Personally, i would reduce my ld package and mainly try to stick 1-2 threats, protect them and deny theirs. While ld can be quite good against Aggro Loam, it can suck aswell in other games, depending on their draw.

Actual sb strategy depends on the board you run ofc, mine looks like this:

SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [TE] Diabolic Edict
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [B] Blue Elemental Blast

On the play, i propably would go for:
+2-3 Blast
+3 Edict
-4 Sinkhole (You still have Wastelands and Stifle to slow them down).
-1 Stifle (Maybe cutting more for Grip if i fear Chalice that much)

On the draw, side out Dazes and maybe go for ~2 Grips just in case, beside cutting Sinkholes.


Concerning EE, foremost its slow. The only creature with Shroud that matters is Geese, which gets outclassed by our threats. Against swarm decks there is Plague (if they are tribal) or spot removal.
Btw. some people may try to kill you for running Extirpate in this deck..

Explosives is almost as fast as Edict and way better at clearing threats. What is Edict supposed to hit? Progenitus? If your opponent has 4 mana to go Natural Order AND has the counter backup, you've already lost.

When I say swarm decks I also mean Zoo and GoyfSligh which are a BIG problem for this deck. EE is REALLY good here. You can't just go all in with Snuff Out or you'll eat 10 burn damage in response. You have to play control in those matchups.

Dredge is popular in my area and IMO Extirpate on a Bridge or an Ichorid is just as crippling as Crypt, Relic, or Planar Void, but they can't needle, bounce, or wispmare it and that's key. Hit both their bridges and Ichorids and it's over. Plus it does double duty against Loam and storm combo. Yixlid Jailer isn't bad either.

[Carabas]

Edict hits Tombstalker, Mystic Enforcer, Morphling, Doran, or Hyppie, While on two lands, at instant speed. This deck doesn't play a lot of lands, and doesn't like tapping out two turns in a row. EE might help v. merfolk, but I'm not sure it's enough.

[kabal]

Edict hits Tombstalker, Mystic Enforcer, Morphling, Doran, or Hyppie, While on two lands, at instant speed. This deck doesn't play a lot of lands, and doesn't like tapping out two turns in a row. EE might help v. merfolk, but I'm not sure it's enough.

+Moongoose ... which was seeing a whole lot more play back when the board was developed.

[MTG-Fan]

So apparently Magic guru and expert Stephen Mennendian doesn't think too much of this deck:



Team America

This deck doesn’t run Dark Confidant! [That’s me laughing out loud] Put this deck up against mine, and I’ll out tempo it even on its own terms. Unless you have a truly inferior hand, you’re not going to lose this match. Thoughtseize/Duress is really huge here as well. You have the same plays but better cards instead of junk like Sinkhole or slow garbage like Tombstalker. Daze is huge in this matchup.


Quote from http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/17187_So_Many_Insane_Plays_The_Road_to_Chicago_with_Next_Level_Blue.html

[Dembones]

So apparently Magic guru and expert Stephen Mennendian doesn't think too much of this deck:



Quote from http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/17187_So_Many_Insane_Plays_The_Road_to_Chicago_with_Next_Level_Blue.html

I don't know if you've heard or not, but if he wasn't the one to create or, ahem, "innovate" the deck, it's likely not any good.

[nitewolf9]

Well shit, I didn't know Tombstalker was "slow garbage". Thanks for this, I'll be changing that spot to Confidant and Sinkhole to Spell Snare immediately.

[lolosoon]

Well shit, I didn't know Tombstalker was "slow garbage".
Still, you could concur that TA cannot power a Stalker as fast as Eva Green. But it is by no mean "slow" nor garbage !

In TA, I hate having them in multiple in the first 3 turns for the previous statement : can't play them as easily as EG could. So I 've made a light change to the critter base of TA recently and run only 3 stalkers and drop one SSnare to make rooms for 2 other beaters.

I thought Coatl were good enough, but it was too slow and not reliable. After that I've tested 2x Vendillion Clique and I am pretty happy with it.

They are additional (but mid-game) disruption, and this alone fills the -2 power gap between the Fairies and the Stalker. This, and UU1 is easiest to achieve than BBx in the deck.

If there is still some TA lovers here, I encourage you to test this configuration.

[keys]

You run Spell Snare? In the Thoughtseize or Sinkhole spot? I wouldn't ever play less than 4 Daze.

I agree that 4 Stalker can be excessive, and Clique is really good.

[nitewolf9]

I agree that 4 Stalker can be excessive, and Clique is really good.

I might run 5 or 6 Stalkers if I could. They are extremely robust and difficult to deal with. Every other creature is going to pale in comparison to Stalker or Goyf. To run less than 4 is not really justifiable. You also run Brainstorm and Ponder to filter your draws, something Eva Green does not have the luxury of. This deck also puts tons of cards in the yard throughout the game.

[DragoFireheart]

I must ask this, so if I offend anyone I apologize in advance.


Why in the world would I play this deck? Ignoring that I would need to shell out money for Sinkholes (which cost more as much as stupidoyf, but are more limited), this deck looks like a bastard child of Tempo Thresh. Just as weak to graveyard hate, has no reach, a lot of it's removal/disrpution kills you and is weaker to moon-decks. God forbid they bounce your Tombstalker after casting it.

If this deck was considered a Tier 1 and Tempo-Thresh was not Tier 1, I'd be a bit more understanding. However, I refuse to not question the fact that a weaker version of tempo thresh is given consideration.

[lolosoon]

You run Spell Snare? In the Thoughtseize or Sinkhole spot? I wouldn't ever play less than 4 Daze.
Sinkhole switch indeed. I ran too many times into Dazes or Snares or being cut from early BB in games vs thresh (which's supposed to be an overall good matchup).

I know NiteWolf and Deep6er will curse me for doing this, but hey, David Gearheart is apparently out of the net and I'm used to be flamed btw XD


I must ask this, so if I offend anyone I apologize in advance.


Why in the world would I play this deck? (...)
I refuse to not question the fact that a weaker version of tempo thresh is given consideration.
You play TA for Kudos and Style points obv. !!

[paK0]

Hi there, i basically registeres to share some thoughts on this great deck =).

4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Phyrexian Dreadnought

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
3 Snuff Out
4 Sinkhole

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp

Sideboard:
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Dark Confidant


This is the list which i have been testing on MWS for some days, since i consider building this deck for the next upcomeing tournaments. The changes are rather small, but the helped me to realize some things:

While the Dreadnought will leave the deck, i will not put in the 4th snuff out again, i'm even thinking of cutting another one. In most matchups i don#t have a target that is worth 4 lifes, or i can't afford to sac 4 lifes (playing against Goyf/Sligh, Eva Green and the likes). I also like the idea of having more threads, 8 is ok most of the time, but more would add consistency to power out a beater on turn 2 or 3.

Im still looking for candidates though, I played some games with the Leech, but it just sucks. If i don't find anything i'll just go with an additional cantrip in that spot ot try out 1 or two Reanimate.

The basic lands are King, the Manabase seems to work out like this so there is no reason to not include them.

The SB is still a place to tinker around, i couldnt test EP up to now, but i really wanna have Bob, he wins a ridiculous amount of games because the strong midgame is worth the tempoloss (imo).

[DragoFireheart]

You play TA for Kudos and Style points obv. !!

Well, this is an obvious answer, but I was looking for a response in the application of the deck.

You could say kudos and style points for most non-tier 1 decks (Vial Wizards? That new Hypergenesis deck?)

[keys]

Well, this is an obvious answer, but I was looking for a response in the application of the deck.

You could say kudos and style points for most non-tier 1 decks (Vial Wizards? That new Hypergenesis deck?)

I like to think of TA as the uber Tempo Thresh. Where it's less versatile and more vulnerable, it makes up for it with bigger threats and faster, more disruptive spells. Take a look:


Thoughtseize is a stronger, preemptive Spell Snare, for 2 life.
Sinkhole is a much more defined Fire/Ice (blasting lands instead of tapping them down, or damage).
Snuff Out, in contrast to Lightning Bolt, is free, nukes creatures with asses bigger than 3, but it burns you for 4 and can't target players and black creatures.
Tombstalker is a bigger, evasive, albeit riskier Mongoose due to its targetability and variable casting cost.


There are other subtle differences which affect specific matchups. TA's access to discard is good versus combo, and E Plague is solid against tribal. On the other hand, Pyroblast and Mongoose are MVPs versus control. That's just a few...

[Mayckol]

Hi there!

I've never posted anything here, but I'm here today with good news....

I've never played Team America until last saturday, when I got 3rt on a Legacy championship at Grand Prix São Paulo.

I used a little bit different list, with some techs of other decks.

1x Bloodstained Mire
2x Bayou
2x Tropical island
2x wasteland
4x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
4x Underground Sea
1x Volrath's Stronghold

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Tombstalker

4x Thoughtseize
3x Stifle
2x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
4x FoW
4x Smother
4x Smallpox
2x Life from the Loam
1x Intuition
1x Cunning Wish

SD
2x Krosan Grip
2x Chalice of the Void
2x Pernicious Deed
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x EE
2x Echoing Truth
2x BEB
2x Leyline of the Void

My teammates and I called this deck "Team South America".

So, let's go to the rounds description

Match 1: White Weenie Kithkin
Game 1: I started and my oponent mulligan to 5. I played underground sea and Thoughtseize. His hand: plains, plains, plains, plains, creature. So, no choice... he had 5 land draws following and a tombstalker finished easyly
Game 2: Counter on 2 creatures, smother on another 1 and tarmogoyf finished.
1-0-0

Match 2: Burn
Game 1: He started with mountain and burn - started my countdown, I thought.... turn 3 I played Tombstalker and killed with it. I finished with 5 life.
Game 2: He started with Barbarian ring and chain lightning. I played polluted delta and passed. He didn't play land and played lightning bolt. So, I didn't have any doubt. I had another fetch and a tropical in hand. I played smallpox and passed. He didn't draw land. I played Goyf on turn 3, 4 and 5. Finish.
2-0-0

Match 3: Dragon Stompy
Game 1: Fow on Bloodmoon and daze on a dragon gave me advantage. Smother in a Gathan Riders. I played Tombstalker and a Goyf and won.
Game 2: I lost for magus of the moon and a Rakdos Pit Dragon
Game 3: very similar to game 1 but he played a jitte and reached two counters on it. I killed the creature (gathan riders) and played goyf. 4 turns with no creatures for his side and I won.
3-0-0

Match 4: Dredge Ichorid
Game 1: He started. I played FoW on a Putrid Imp but he made the combo on turn 4.
Game 2: I sided in 9 cards. At the mid game he made a 12 dredge with 2 troll and nothing went to his graveyard. I top decked a relic and won.
Game 3: He sided out chain of vapor and mulligan to 5. I started with leyline. Turn 4 I played a goyf and won.
4-0-0

Match 4: GW fish homebrew
He was my teammate. We ID.

I went to top 8 on first. I've never reached a result as good as that.

TOP 8 - Match 1: Dreadstill
Game 1: counters on both sides. 3rd turn he played dreadnought and trickbind. I accepted. On EfT I played smother on dreadnought. In my turn I played goyf and some turns after I won.
Game 2: I lost my underground sea cause a wasteland and never draw a land again. Lost for goyf.
Game 3: The longest game of the day. Goyf on both sides (but I had two and he had only one). I was afraid of bounce and used loam to bring the volraths and tombstalker to my graveyard. It worked and I won. ufff....

TOP 8 - Match 2: White stax
Nice player. He deserved to be the champion.
Game 1: I won with two goyfs played on turn 2 and 3.
Game 2: I was locked by wasteland and was killed by mishras
Game 3: I keeped a hand with two fetch lands and a Tropical, one smallpox, loam and tombstalker and thoughtseize. He mulligan to 5. I played fetch to underground sea and thoughtseize he discarded something I don't remember. He played plains. Now, I made my worst play. I played smallpox. He discarded crucible of worlds and I loam. He top decked another crucible and locked me with wasteland.

I was very happy with deck and my result.
Maybe for the future I'll think to use pithing needle on side.

So, this is it.

I was my first post on The Source. Sorry any english mistake I've done. I hope you can enjoy it.

[keys]

So what was your motive for playing Smallpox instead of Sinkhole? The creature removal is good and all, but blowing up your own lands seems pretty risky. I understand Loam is supposed to help with that, but Loam just seems terribly slow. From your report, you used Smallpox to blast a land once, and the other time it contributed to your loss.

Smother instead of Snuff Out is understandable if you're slowing the deck down a bit, since (besides Dragon Stompy) the only creature it can't hit is Tombstalker, which Snuff out can't hit either.

[stu55]

Figured I would post my quick list on this deck, ran it to 6-2-1 at GP Chicago, should have Day 2 if I had known how Dryad Arbor works. I have won my past 2 Legacy tournies with this deck too

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Sinkhole
3 Ponder
3 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
3 Snuff Out
1 Thoughtseize
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
3 Tropical Island
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Thoughtseize
3 Submerge
3 Diabolic Edict
1 Pernicious Deed


Questions? Concerns? I really think this is the optimal build for the deck

[keys]

Are you content with the lone Thoughtseize maindeck? Seems kinda random. My build is kind of in between yours and the "standard build"-- I use a 2/2 split of Thoughtseize/Spell Snare, and I use one Maelstrom Pulse instead of a Ponder. The Deeds seem a little slow, and they don't pitch to Force. What have they done for you?

[Esper3k]

Hey guys,

I'm new to Team America, but I'm interesting in maybe starting to play a deck.

I had a few questions though:

How do you deal with a Blood Moon with no basics?

Also, how does the deck match up against Zoo? It would seem to me that the suicideness plus few threats (on top of StP or PtE wrecking your day) would make that a poor matchup.

Thanks!

[Wargoos]

How do you deal with a Blood Moon with no basics?
Don't let the opponent resolve one.
Ever.


Also, how does the deck match up against Zoo? It would seem to me that the suicideness plus few threats (on top of StP or PtE wrecking your day) would make that a poor matchup.
Yeah , you're right, it's a pretty horrible mu for obvious reasons.
Nevertheless it's not like it's unwinable.

[Carabas]

I think Zoo's rise to power is the reason this deck is no longer a deck to beat.

[Esper3k]

I think Zoo's rise to power is the reason this deck is no longer a deck to beat.

Stupid Zoo :(

Makes me sad inside to see black suicide decks on hard times (I love to play Eva as well).

[Patrunkenphat7]

This deck seems really cool, but I don't see how it lives off of 8 threats when 4 of them (the tombstalkers) are significantly difficult to cast in multiples. I guess its the Brainstorms and Ponders that help you find them... Its just that I play Eva Green with 15 threats and targeted discard on their removal, and I still find it really difficult to keeps threats on the board against certain decks.

[keys]

This deck seems really cool, but I don't see how it lives off of 8 threats when 4 of them (the tombstalkers) are significantly difficult to cast in multiples. I guess its the Brainstorms and Ponders that help you find them... Its just that I play Eva Green with 15 threats and targeted discard on their removal, and I still find it really difficult to keeps threats on the board against certain decks.

Well, Eva doesn't have cantrip or counter. Also, you normally only have instants, sorceries and lands in your yard (lots of multiples), so the interaction between Goyf and Stalker isn't as bad as you think. It's the stuff in the opponents yard that pumps Goyf. In sum, they aren't mutually exclusive.

[stu55]

Are you content with the lone Thoughtseize maindeck? Seems kinda random. My build is kind of in between yours and the "standard build"-- I use a 2/2 split of Thoughtseize/Spell Snare, and I use one Maelstrom Pulse instead of a Ponder. The Deeds seem a little slow, and they don't pitch to Force. What have they done for you?


Deed is usually pretty good against the aggro decks. Gets rid of c-balance, dreadnoughts, standstills.

The lone thoughtseize was just for something better than a lone Terravore I had in there. I might change it back.

Unfortunately, there is almost no way to make the Red Burn/Zoo/Merfolk matchup better it seems

[Patrunkenphat7]

Well, Eva doesn't have cantrip or counter. Also, you normally only have instants, sorceries and lands in your yard (lots of multiples), so the interaction between Goyf and Stalker isn't as bad as you think. It's the stuff in the opponents yard that pumps Goyf. In sum, they aren't mutually exclusive.

Well I agree with the goyf/tombstalker thing; that's not what I was referring to.
Casting more than 1 Tombstalker in a game is often difficult until you reach the really late stages of the game. If you never see a goyf, you're really only gonna have 1 threat maximum for quite a while.

[Wargoos]

One single Stalker is eventually enough to seal the deal with all the tempooriented and disruptive play.

[keys]

Well I agree with the goyf/tombstalker thing; that's not what I was referring to.
Casting more than 1 Tombstalker in a game is often difficult until you reach the really late stages of the game. If you never see a goyf, you're really only gonna have 1 threat maximum for quite a while.

Yeah I totally misread that. On a related note I scrubbed out today with TA going 1-3 versus two (yes, two) Affinity, Goyfsligh, and Probasco Thresh, where I punted by letting a Shackles resolve and he took my Tombstalker that was swinging in for lethal, and drew no-land-hands like it's my job. I learned that 2 Land + 2 Snuff Out deserves mulling to 3 versus Goyfsligh. I'm thinking Hydroblasts in the SB is probably necessary....

I'm also thinking about cutting down the number of Sinkholes. They've felt subpar most games and clogged up my hand too often. I'd want to replace them with Spell Snare, which was great every time I saw it, or maybe another creature like Clique or Trygon.

Edit:

Here's what my deck looks like now after recent changes:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Snuff Out
2 Spell Snare
2 Thoughtseize
3 Sinkhole
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou

Sideboard:
4 Engineered Plague
3 Krosan Grip
3 Hydroblast
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Thoughtseize
1 Engineered Explosives

[keys]

I'm putting together a list of SB plans for common matchups. I'm using the SB in the post above. Thoughts?

CounterTop
-4 Daze (on the draw) or -4 Stifle (on the play)
-1 Maelstrom Pulse
+3 Krosan Grip
+2 Thoughtseize

Landstill/Dreadstill
-3 Daze
-3 Sinkhole
+3 Krosan Grip
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Engineered Explosives

Merfolk
-4 Daze (on the draw) or -4 Stifle (on the play)
-3 Sinkhole
+4 Engineered Plague
+2 Diabolic Edict
+1 Engineered Explosives

Tempo Thresh
-1 Thoughtseize
-1 Vendilion Clique
-1 Maelstrom Pulse
+2 Edict
+1 Engineered Explosives

Goyfsligh/Zoo
-4 Daze (on the draw) or -4 Stifle (on the play)
-2 Thoughtseize
+3 Hydroblast
+2 Diabolic Edict
+1 Engineered Explosives

Goblins
-4 Stifle
-3 Sinkhole
-2 Spell Snare
-1 Vendilion Clique
+4 Engineered Plague
+3 Hydroblast
+2 Diabolic Edict
+1 Engineered Explosives

Ichorid
-3 Snuff Out
-2 Spell Snare
-2 Thoughtseize
+4 Engineered Plague
+2 Diabolic Edict
+1 Engineered Explosives

Storm Combo
-4 Snuff Out
-1 Maelstrom Pulse
-1 Bloodstained Mire
+3 Hydroblast
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Engineered Explosives

Eva Green
-3 Sinkhole
+2 Diabolic Edict
+1 Engineered Explosives

Dragon Stompy
-4 Stifle
-2 Spell Snare
-1 Thoughtseize
+3 Hydroblast
+2 Diabolic Edict
+1 Krosan Grip
+1 Engineered Explosives

Aggro Loam
-3 Daze
-3 Sinkhole
+3 Hydroblast
+2 Diabolic Edict
+1 Engineered Explosives

[coraz86]

I'm putting together a list of SB plans for common matchups. I'm using the SB in the post above. Thoughts?

CounterTop
-4 Daze (on the draw) or -4 Stifle (on the play)
-1 Maelstrom Pulse
+3 Krosan Grip
+2 Thoughtseize


I would actually keep the Stifles in on the play. Countertop likes to run 6-8 fetchlands, so Stifle either denies them mana whatsoever (if they play a fetch and you Stifle it) or denies them mana quality (if they play a land of a color they don't really want to avoid having a fetch Stifled). I'd actually take out the maindeck Thoughtseizes instead, Krosan Grip should be plenty, I'd think.

[deadlock]

keys i really question your decision of cutting a Ponder and a Sinkhole from the deck.
About Ponder:
Bs and Ponder is one of the great advantages this deck has over Eva Green, its basically the TA's engine, by helping you finding threats and answers.
Often you nuke down your enemy, but you struggle to finish him off - Ponder helps you to find the nail in the coffin, which is especially important with only 8 beaters in the deck.
Also its an amazing topdeck, by letting you see 4 cards immediately.

Before cutting a Sinkhole, you should ask yourself if a deck that relies heavily on landestruction is viable in your meta. If yes then roll with TA and keep in mind that you want to see the maximum amount of ld effects in some matchups.
I think you cant water down this approach, its basically all or nothing. If you weaken the ld package, then you may struggle in the matchups were it is supposed to be good. I hope i could make myself clear with this.

Issues that should be addressed are, manabase, blue count and heavy strains on your life total.
For the first point i see no solution currently.
If i would make changes to the deck, i would start with cutting a Thoughtseize like you did. Three is fine, because it gets weaker as the game progresses and against aggresive decks you dont want to cast two in one game most of the time.
Clique seems like a good replacement, it ups your blue count, disrupts and beats!
Another card that could be cut to three is Stifle, its less vital to your landestruction theme, because its more situational. I almost never disliked to have Stifle in hand, but maybe there stronger options.

[klaus]

I'm putting together a list of SB plans for common matchups. I'm using the SB in the post above. Thoughts?

Landstill/Dreadstill
-3 Daze
-3 Sinkhole
SINKHOLE & DAZE ARE GOLDEN AGAINST DECKS THAT NEED 5+ LANDS IN PLAY TO FUNCTION.


Tempo Thresh
-1 Stifle
I'D RECONSIDER THIS: THEY'LL BE ATTACKING YOUR MANABASE ASWELL; AND STIFLE - WELL COUNTERS THEIR WASTELANDS::


Ichorid
-2 Spell Snare
-2 Thoughtseize
-1 Snuff Out
+4 Engineered Plague
+1 Engineered Explosives
i WANNA SEE EDICTS HERE: ALSO SNUFF OUT REALLY ONLY HITS THEIR NARCOS AND SOMETIMES THEIR REANIMATED GRAVETROLLS

Storm Combo
-4 Snuff Out
-1 Maelstrom Pulse
+3 Hydroblast
+2 Thoughtseize
I'D SUGGEST -1 LAND + 1EE

Eva Green
-3 Sinkhole
-1 Stifle------------> SEE THEMPOTRHESH
+2 Diabolic Edict
+2 Thoughtseize - WHY THOUGHTSEIZE? - THEY'LL EMPTY THEIR HAND IN 4 TURNS (RITUAL) AND THOUGHTSEIZES WILL BE DEAD DRAWS.

Dragon Stompy
-4 Stifle
-3 Sinkhole--------ATTACKING THEIR MANABASE IS A GOOD PLAN BECAUSE GETTING HELLBENT IS HARDER THAT WAY: DOUBLE bb IS TOUGH THOUGH
-2 Spell Snare
+3 Krosan Grip
+3 Hydroblast
+2 Diabolic Edict
+1 Engineered Explosives

[keys]

I don't think Daze is very good versus Landstill after game 1. They'll just slow play once they know you're packing, and Sinkhole is kinda weak when they have so many lands + Crucible. What would you take out instead? I'd much rather leave Stifle in since it counters Deed, EE, DoJ, planeswalker ultimates, random Factory activations, and can still trip a fetch if you're lucky.

I see the rest of your points, though.

Regarding the maindeck list, I've just had a lot of success with Spell Snare, and the deck needs more blue spells. I don't think TA should be piloted like an LD deck. The LD here is used to punish opponents that take 1/2-land hands. Stifle and Wasteland are both fast and versatile, and I'm never unhappy to see them, but Sinkhole can be a really bad topdeck and it just isn't nearly as fast without Ritual to fuel broken plays with it as in Eva and traditional suicide.

[stu55]

Though it varies a lot with format, Sinkhole almost always comes out on the draw. Stifle never comes out. Snuff out comes out sometimes too depending on match up.

Daze never comes out. If they slow play landstill then you are probably going to win

[keys]

After more testing, I've gone back up to 4 Sinkhole, 4 Ponder, cut the Vendilion Clique and remaining Thoughtseizes, and added a second Maelstrom Pulse. Effectively, I'm back to the generic TA decklist -4 Thoughtseize, +2 Spell Snare, +2 Pulse. The split might end up becoming 3/1 and/or include P.Deed or Trygon Predator.

The problem I've realized with thoughseize is that it really only improves the matchups that are already favorable (i.e. Combo/Control). As others have noted, the card also contributes toward two central weaknesses: low blue count and excessive life loss. Replacing thoughtseize with Spell Snare/Pulse (a) increases blue count, and (b) gives you answers to resolved permanents without the life loss. Both are significantly more effective against TA's worst matchups, e.g. Goyfsligh, Zoo, and other aggro/aggro-control.

Pulse has never disappointed me as a catch-all emergency button or just removal 5-6. It serves a similar purpose to the two bounce slots in Tempo Thresh. Having outs against threats ranging from resolved Chalice(s) (frequent problem) to a horde of Zombie Tokens (niche use) can be a game saver.

@Stu55: I still have to try out Deed, but the reasons I prefer Pulse on paper are simply that (a) Goyf doesn't regenerate, (b) it can't be stifled, and (c) it's a turn faster. It might at the very least be a better SB card than EE.

[stu55]

Those 2 spots honestly need to be cards that are fantastic against the Zoo match up...the biggest problem

[keys]

Those 2 spots honestly need to be cards that are fantastic against the Zoo match up...the biggest problem

Pulse might not be as fantastic as Deed in the Zoo matchup, but removing Thoughtseize is still a step toward improving it.

I do like that it can hit Chalices and tokens for 1BG in addition to working as a sweeper. It's just harder to hit Smokestack, Shackles, walkers, and other random things that slip by. So many blue decks have Stifle for it, plus Zoo decks can shut it down with Pithing Needle and/or Krosan Grip post-SB.

Deed/EE just seems more like a SB option to me.

[lorddotm]

Pulse might not be as fantastic as Deed in the Zoo matchup, but removing Thoughtseize is still a step toward improving it.

I do like that it can hit Chalices and tokens for 1BG in addition to working as a sweeper. It's just harder to hit Smokestack, Shackles, walkers, and other random things that slip by. So many blue decks have Stifle for it, plus Zoo decks can shut it down with Pithing Needle and/or Krosan Grip post-SB.

Deed/EE just seems more like a SB option to me.

You forgot to add that those are usually my Chalices you're blowing up

[Valdez]

has anyone ever conciderd "disrupt" in the sb, at the next tourney i'am going to play, will be al lot zoo/sligh, plus a few landstill and tempo decks (eva and ta).
the ls guys their use to play 3 path between mb/sb, to improve their mus vs the tempo decks and zoo.

i wasn't able to perform valid testing, because of written exams at university, but the few games i made vs. eva and zoo/sligh were quite nice.

boarding plans are:
zoo/sligh:
out:4 sinkhole, 4 daze (daze sucks vs. aggro decks)
in:4 hydroblast, 4 disrupt
stifle counters crypts and the stifle/waste plan is quite solid against a deck with 18/19 lands, whoose cards (fireblast, nacatl, ape) depend on duals.

eva:
out: 4 snuff out (they only hit goyf, but i am not really sure bout this, maybe any split with 1-2 snuff out and some other/random cards would be better)
in: 4 disrupt

landstill:
out: 4 snuff out
in: 4 disrupt (hits stp, bs, and pte)

[keys]

landstill:
out: 4 snuff out
in: 4 disrupt (hits stp, bs, and pte)

I just question how often you can reliably counter these 1-mana spells with Disrupt.

My SB has evolved into this:

4 Hydroblast
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt

4 Open - Currently considering: Submerge, Disrupt, Divert, Perish, Thoughtseize (I don't play them maindeck), Threads of Disloyalty, and/or additional Crypts. So there are plenty of options:

Threads/Perish provide a couple more tools against Zoo, Eva, Tempo Thresh, Coatl Gro, and Elves/Progenitus. That's probably too many 3cc spells, unfortunately. More of a curve would be nice, although one can always argue it dodges CB/Top.

Divert is great vs Burn/Sligh, Eva, and Combo (yep-- duress, chant), but it's obviously situational. Disrupt is similar, but not as narrow.

I like Submerge a lot, but TA already has so much targeted removal that it feels like overkill to include it. As free tempo it is amazing though.

Lastly, has anyone considered Dreadnought/Trickbind in the SB? I'm not sure it's any better than the other anti-aggro options-- and it's obviously more fragile-- but it's an interesting concept. It would only take up 6 spots, max.

Edit: I just went through the thread, looks like it was tested before, though I don't see any explanation of how it did and why it was dropped.

[sauce]

i used to run 1 dreadnought main since i already had 4 stifles. it was the nuts.

[Valdez]

I just question how often you can reliably counter these 1-mana spells with Disrupt.
i think that it becomes really powerfull in combination with daze and you hit every 1st turn bs.

my problem ist simply, that i dont know how to deal with this amount of spotremoval in ls, i wish they had printed an "envelop" for instants in m10...

[keys]

i think that it becomes really powerfull in combination with daze and you hit every 1st turn bs.

my problem ist simply, that i dont know how to deal with this amount of spotremoval in ls, i wish they had printed an "envelop" for instants in m10...

Well, you can only hit a 1st turn BS while on the play, and I see most people boarding in Disrupt replacing Daze on the draw.

[Valdez]

why should i board out daze, vs. the slowest deck you could imagine..?
do you really play bs 1st turn on the play in your turn, when your oponet is playing thoughtseizes..?
i dont think so.

you also hit wish/vindicate, cs, fow, etc. ...

[keys]

why should i board out daze, vs. the slowest deck you could imagine..?
do you really play bs 1st turn on the play in your turn, when your oponet is playing thoughtseizes..?
i dont think so.

you also hit wish/vindicate, cs, fow, etc. ...

I've only played with Disrupt once, and it wasn't entirely clear to me what to board out for it, but there are people in the Tempo Thresh thread who take out Daze for it on the draw.

It was insignificant in the Goyfsligh matchup, and in all other games there wasn't enough I wanted to take out for it. I didn't play any combo, though.

[stu55]

Threads seems like the right answer to the zoo matchup. I just consider the red burn matchup an auto loss

[klaus]

boarding plans are:
zoo/sligh:
out:4 sinkhole, 4 daze (daze sucks vs. aggro decks)
in:4 hydroblast, 4 disrupt
stifle counters crypts and the stifle/waste plan is quite solid against a deck with 18/19 lands, whoose cards (fireblast, nacatl, ape) depend on duals.


As you already said: their manabase is where you get them, which is why I'd recommend leaving those Sinkholes in, and taking out your Thoughtseizes instead.

Barring creatureless decks with lots of spot removal (aka. LS etc..), Divert seems to be the superior choice when compared to Disrupt.
It eats Burn's face, shrugs of Eva green, and, well, has the opponent pay 2 instead of 1 extra mana. I'm aware it doesn't replace itself but misdirecting stuff for 1 mana is just too sexy!

[coraz86]

Threads seems like the right answer to the zoo matchup. I just consider the red burn matchup an auto loss

Have you tried Chill? Burn and Zoo run tight enough mana bases that Chill is pretty awkward for them, especially if you Waste/Stifle their non-red sources and funnel them into having to play red spells.

[Valdez]

As you already said: their manabase is where you get them, which is why I'd recommend leaving those Sinkholes in, and taking out your Thoughtseizes instead.
i'm not sure bout that, sinkhole uses to suck somehow on the draw, while ts is able to pick pop or goyf, but i'll defintly try that.


Barring creatureless decks with lots of spot removal (aka. LS etc..), Divert seems to be the superior choice when compared to Disrupt.
It eats Burn's face, shrugs of Eva green, and, well, has the opponent pay 2 instead of 1 extra mana. I'm aware it doesn't replace itself but misdirecting stuff for 1 mana is just too sexy!
divert ist on my mind, and i rally would concider it if ls wasn't the main problem, afair 3 ls made top 8 last month.

[keys]

i'm not sure bout that, sinkhole uses to suck somehow on the draw, while ts is able to pick pop or goyf, but i'll defintly try that.

Most of the time Thoughtseizing a Goyfsligh player is just a free shock for them.

[Esper3k]

I'm new to the deck and have been interested in running Divert in the side as well.

There isn't a lot of Counterbalance/Top or Thresh in general in my meta, so I don't have much experience playing that matchup.

What do you guys recommend boarding in and out when playing against the most popular deck in the format?

This is my sideboard I'm considering:

3 Divert
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Spell Snare
3 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
1 Hydroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast

As you can see, it's not very fine tuned. I'm trying to gear more towards tough matchups like Suicide or Sligh/Burn/Zoo decks since it seems like the matchup against the other decks is pretty strong.

[Esper3k]

Most of the time Thoughtseizing a Goyfsligh player is just a free shock for them.

It's a free shock for them, but if you grab something that's going to do you more damage over time (like a Goyf), you're still coming out ahead on life loss.

[keys]

It's a free shock for them, but if you grab something that's going to do you more damage over time (like a Goyf), you're still coming out ahead on life loss.

I know, but it's still a bad idea to leave it in after game 1. You should sideboard out 'seizes for blasts and a couple Snuff Outs for Pernicious Deeds if you have them.

Actually, a good way to improve your aggro matchup is to replace the maindeck 'seizes with Spell Snares and Maelstrom Pulses or Pernicious Deeds.

The SS/Pulse split works really well for me.

[Esper3k]

I actually attempted to run 3x Chalice in the sideboard before (dumped the Thoughtseizes and maindecked Hymns instead to make myself less succeptible to Chalce @ 1), but it doesn't seem to be working out the way I had imagined it working out :(

[keys]

Yeah that seems like a backwards strategy.

Chalice@1 isn't actually that hard to play around since it really only stops Stifle and your draw. I think it's usually best to save removal and counters for Crucible, Geddon and Humility (if you're playing stax) or Moon (if you're playing DS).

Then again Thoughtseize is pretty good versus Stax/Dragon Stompy.

[stu55]

There isn't a lot of Counterbalance/Top or Thresh in general in my meta, so I don't have much experience playing that matchup.

.


Not gonna lie, I dont think this deck is good in a meta where those dont exist in numbers...




Yeah that seems like a backwards strategy.

Chalice@1 isn't actually that hard to play around since it really only stops Stifle and your draw.


Aren't you just put into a huge hole by not having your draw? I think i would counter Chalice @1 any day over any other chalice @ any another number

[keys]

Aren't you just put into a huge hole by not having your draw? I think i would counter Chalice @1 any day over any other chalice @ any another number

Well I would obviously Spell Snare it any time I have the chance, Daze maybe too, but most of the time I don't think I'd waste a Force on it unless my hand is heavy draw/fetches. I can still play all my Threats through it, and run my draw into it to grow my yard if need be. There are bigger threats IMHO.

Chalice@2 stops Goyf and Daze, which, depending on your hand, could be more of a problem.

[Esper3k]

Yeah I meant that I was using Chalice in my own sideboard and would set it @1 against decks like Burn and Zoo. It also seems good against Canadian Thresh if you can get it through their countermagic.

I have been playing Hymn to Tourach over Thoughtseize to cut down on the number of 1 drops in my deck so I wouldn't be as hurt by my own Chalice.

I'm going back to playing Thoughtseizes now though to get experience with the more standard version of the deck.

Against Counterbalance/Top, how do you deal with it if they get out the soft lock? I know Snuff Out and Tombstalker pretty much ignore it - do you just try and get a Tombstalker out and win off the back of it?

[keys]

Yeah don't play Chalice in this deck...

Obviously you want to Force/Daze/Spell Snare Counterbalance if possible, or try to keep them at low mana with your LD. Tombstalker and Snuff Out are both incredible. Maelstrom Pulse and Pernicious Deed are solid answers as well. You have Grips in the SB.

[kikkofrio]

Under nitewolf advice, I'm trying this SB actually:

2 darkblast
2 diabolic edict
3 plague
4 krosan grip
4 tourach

I'm not sure on 4 tourach, I would try disrupt or submerge, or 2 pithing needle.

Anyone tried them?

[Esper3k]

My friends and I were talking about this, but what do you all think about Soul Reap in the sideboard instead of Diabolic Edict?

It deals with Tombstalker, Dark Confidant, as well as any other black creatures that may be bothering us, which is what I assume the reason Edict is in the board for. You can even generate a little bit of extra damage with it as well if you get it later game.

Of course, the biggest drawback is that it doesn't hit Goyf, but it does pinpoint remove black creatures, which is rare for a black spell.

Thoughts?

[keys]

Soul Reep seems like a weak SB card, and too risky to play maindeck. I'd rather pay the extra 1 to play Pulses or Putrefy to deal with black creatures.

[stu55]

Pretty sure I am rocking a SB of:

4 Leyline of the Void
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Thoughtseize
3 Submerge
3 Chill/Threads of Disloyalty (which is better against Zoo and Burn?)
2 Diabolic Edict

[nitewolf9]

Pretty sure I am rocking a SB of:

4 Leyline of the Void
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Thoughtseize
3 Submerge
3 Chill/Threads of Disloyalty (which is better against Zoo and Burn?)
2 Diabolic Edict

Why so much graveyard hate? And why are you not running 4 Thoughtseizes main?

I personally feel that you need a little more board space devoted to the merfolk matchup. Chill is pretty narrow, and Threads is much better against Zoo. But I feel that BEB is probably better than both if you must run a card for those matchups (also helps against D.Stompy). Threads does have the advantage of them most likely not bringing in enchantment removal post board against you, so it might be worth trying out. I'd probably run more Edicts before I ran Submerge in this deck.

What are you expecting to see besides Zoo and Burn?

[deadlock]

Some general notes on modifying the maindeck sb:

-Thoughtseize vs Spell Snare: They both do the same thing by stopping your opponents critcal turn two play. While TS is stronger early on, it becomes the worse topdeck later on. Keep in mind that TA is all about the early game.
Timing of both: Thoughtseize can be cast on your first turn, if you are on the play. This is critical compared to SS, because this way it doesnt divert your second turn play, by forcing you to keep mana open for there possible t2 play (SS)
Also note that TS gives you additional information about their hand and how to weighen their threats and quite important; How effective will be your land destruction.
I opt for a 3 to 1 split in favor of TS, if you want to move away from the standard 4of TS.

-Adding other cards to the maindeck: Make sure to keep in mind that the standard configuration can play every spell of an Underground Sea and the single Bayou.

-SB:
First of i dont advise to play Leyline in a deck like this, which doesnt run Dark Ritual.
Second point is running artifacts and enchantments in your board. In my opionion it is very advantageous to do so, simply because your opponent will have no specific answer to them generally. Keep in mind that most of these cards may interfere with your tempo game plan. Still thinking that running a couple of Deeds could be good, especially since Engineered Plague often doesnt cut it anymore. I am also a huge fan of Pithing Needle, in order to support your Grips, most importantly they stop Vial, Relic and Top.

-Matchups:
I dont know where this talk about LS comes from, both here and in there thread. In my opinion LS is the ideal prey for this deck, more detailed your land destruction plan. Which is most effective if the opponent runs a multicolored manabase (including Fetchlands) and high casting cost spells.

This doesnt mean that there not problems with the ld plan in general, keeping in mind the general low cost spells that are played in legacy. What leads to the greater succes of Canadian Thresh compared to TA imo.

EDIT: Was too slow with that Enchantment point :<

[Mayckol]

Last weekend I ran an alternative list with:


4x lorescale coatl - instead goyf, cause I didn´t have any

4x diabolic edict - insread sinkhole.
2x life from the loam
The rest was the standard list.
I liked coatl and edict main deck. It´s quite slower than goyf but it can get bigger to tackle crusher and other like him.
Waste+loam worked better than sinkhole.

My SB was:

2x needle
2x relic of progenitus - loam and dreadge
2x beb
1x krosan grip
2x chalice of the void
2x LotV
2x deed
2x echoing truth

I had problems with a burn and a boros. I´m thinking of add 2 beb and 1 deed in the SB instead needle and chalice. I got a 3-3 in this champ and finished at 15th or something.

[keys]

Keeping in mind that I play 2 Spell Snare/2 Pulse instead of Thoughtseize, here is the SB I've arrived at:

4 Hydroblast - Zoo/Sligh, Burn, Dragon Stompy, Aggro Loam, Imperial Painter, Storm Combo w/ blasts/wishes. If you don't prepare for it, Zoo/Sligh decks will demolish you (with their own blasts, too).

2 Divert - Zoo/Sligh, Burn, Eva, and (to a lesser degree) Combo. This is more of a personal choice. Chill is another option, but it's obviously more narrow, and I want something to help versus Eva, too. Really, they're good. It's so easy to get 2-for-1s. I would play 3.

2 Pernicious Deed - Zoo, Merfolk, Goblins, Affinity, and any swarm aggro. Mana intensive but truly worth it. Better than E. Plague against tribal.

1 Engineered Explosives - could be a 3rd Deed, but a split protects against Needle, and EE is more useful versus Chalice aggro, Tempo Thresh, and Ichorid.

2 Perish - Tempo Thresh, Coatl Gro, Zoo, Progenitus and/or Survival Elves. All around better card than Diabolic Edict in the same matchups.

2 Tormod's Crypt - Ichorid, Loam. In an ideal world, I would play 4, but space is tight. Thankfully, Pulse/Deed/EE have no problem working overtime against zombie tokens, and 8 cantrips make it possible to dig out.

2 Krosan Grip - CounterTop, Dreadstill, Stax, Chalice aggro, Affinity, etc. I would maybe like to have 3, but 2 seems like enough in addition to the 2 maindeck Pulses I run. (If I didn't play the Pulses maindeck, I would need to play the 3rd Crypt and Grip, probably removing Perish.)

[stu55]

Why so much graveyard hate? And why are you not running 4 Thoughtseizes main?

I personally feel that you need a little more board space devoted to the merfolk matchup. Chill is pretty narrow, and Threads is much better against Zoo. But I feel that BEB is probably better than both if you must run a card for those matchups (also helps against D.Stompy). Threads does have the advantage of them most likely not bringing in enchantment removal post board against you, so it might be worth trying out. I'd probably run more Edicts before I ran Submerge in this deck.

What are you expecting to see besides Zoo and Burn?


I see no reason not to run them against Dredge/43land/Loam decks. I see plenty of the C-top/thresh decks, which dont bother me at all. I have 1 seize in the md, and run 3 spell snare. My deck list is posted somewhere around on this thread

[kikkofrio]

i'm trying this now

2 darkblast
2 diabolic edict
3 plague
3 krosan grip
2 pithing needle
3 disrupt

2 needle let me play only 3 krosan against dreadstill, bant and other.
needle stop relic and vial vs tribal deck too

disrupt make daze work better vs burn and goyf sligh making card advantage.

[keys]

i'm trying this now

2 darkblast
2 diabolic edict
3 plague
3 krosan grip
2 pithing needle
3 disrupt

2 needle let me play only 3 krosan against dreadstill, bant and other.
needle stop relic and vial vs tribal deck too

disrupt make daze work better vs burn and goyf sligh making card advantage.

Why Plague + Darkblast instead of Pernicious Deed? Deed hits everything + Vials.

What is edict supposed to be for?

You have nothing good to board in versus Ichorid.

Disrupt is fine but I suggest you try out Divert. It's better against burn and goyf sligh. Though with no Hydroblasts you will probably lose anyway.

[Michael Keller]

What is edict supposed to be for?

Probably Progenitus and the like.

[keys]

Probably Progenitus and the like.

What decks play Progenitus? Elves. Threshold.

Perish is better.

[Dr.AgOn]

What is Perish supposed to be for?
Probably Progenitus and the like.
What decks play Progenitus? Elves. Threshold. (you forgot survival)
Edict is better.

[Skeggi]

Why would Edict be better than Perish against those decks? Incase Elves has got a singleton Mirror Entity? You're winning that anyway. Incase Thresh has a singleton Vendilion Clique? You're winning that anyway. Incase Survival has... pff... I don't know any non-green creatures where Edict would matter in Survival... A singleton Mirror Entity again, perhaps?

[deadlock]

Diabolic Edict is / can
-instant speed
-cheaper
-hits black dudes, eg Dark Confidant, Tombstalker

..just saying.

[Hopo]

But you realize that against something like elves - which half of the conversation revolves around now - you pretty much never make any use of it? Edicting a Llanowar Elf is hardly a gamebreaking move.

[Skeggi]

Dark Confidant, Tombstalker
There's no decent deck that uses these guys and doesn't run green.


Not that I advocate the use of Perish or Edict, I'll leave that in the middle... I'm...


Just sayin.

[kikkofrio]

Why Plague + Darkblast instead of Pernicious Deed? Deed hits everything + Vials.

What is edict supposed to be for?

You have nothing good to board in versus Ichorid.

Disrupt is fine but I suggest you try out Divert. It's better against burn and goyf sligh. Though with no Hydroblasts you will probably lose anyway.

Darkblast make me win goyf wars and his recursion is good after a bad ponder or brainstorm, and dredge make stalker easier castable.

Plague is faster than dead. Plague make a 1-X in a turn. Dead needs one turn setup.

Disrupt makes cardandvantage and in a denial strategy can works vs opponent's braistorm or ponder made to search land, or vs Reb.

Edict vs confidant or stalker, or red based deck that make snuff out too dangerous.

[Muradin]

The advantage of Deed is that it is very synergistic with Tombstalker because of its high casting cost and that Deed is very flexible. You can board it against Merfolk, Elves, Zoo, Goyf Sligh.... and of course random shit like Slivers. However I also feel that specific cards for specific matchups is what this deck needs. This deck is all about efficiency and thus needs efficient sideboard cards for each matchup. Every other approach would dilute the deck's gameplan.

Moreover I feel that Plague is definitely needed as Merfolk is very popular at the moment with Survival Elves and to a lesser degree goblins seeing play as well.

[keys]

Darkblast make me win goyf wars and his recursion is good after a bad ponder or brainstorm, and dredge make stalker easier castable.
You don't need to win goyf wars. Just use Snuff Out, or Perish. This is just cute.

Plague is faster than dead. Plague make a 1-X in a turn. Dead needs one turn setup.
It might be faster, but it doesn't always work. One Lord negates the effect. Merfolk plays 8 lords. Deed kills everything. Ask any Merfolk player, they will tell you Deed is a significantly bigger threat. Also, EE for 1 is the same cmc as Plague and hit vials, relics, and cursecatcher.

Disrupt makes cardandvantage and in a denial strategy can works vs opponent's braistorm or ponder made to search land, or vs Reb.
Okay but that doesn't improve your worst matchups. You need to bring in at least 6 cards versus red based decks. Not having blasts is a mistake.

Edict vs confidant or stalker, or red based deck that make snuff out too dangerous.
The times when you need to pick off a Confidant or Stalker, Edict is not always going to help you. Besides, the decks you really need help with are Zoo and Sligh. Edict is just 1-for-1. You think it's helping your plan, but it's not. Perish, in contrast, takes out Nacatl, Goyf, Thoctar, Pridemage, and Teeg, in one sweep for 2B. It kills elves and Progenitus. It kills Mongoose and Goyf.

If you need a hard removal spell for Tombstalker and Confidant so bad, jeez, I dunno, play Soul Reap or Lignify. It'll be bad, but at least it'll hit its target.

[Esper3k]

Hello guys,

I've still be slowly playing the deck, trying to get as many games in as I can these days.

I had a question - what do you guys board in/out against Aggro Loam?

I've had a tough time thinking about that one.

Here's the sideboard I'm currently fiddling around with:

3 Divert
3 Extirpate
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Krosan Grip
3 Spell Snare (for when I'm on the draw mainly)
1 Hydroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast

Thanks!

[keys]

I'd definitely board in Blue blasts, Extirpates, and Spell Snares. Take out Daze and Sinkhole.

Then you should probably board in Deeds, too, since Chalice shuts off your hate. Deed will bust a few moxen too.

[miko]

Disrupt makes cardandvantage and in a denial strategy can works vs opponent's braistorm or ponder made to search land, or vs Reb.
Okay but that doesn't improve your worst matchups. You need to bring in at least 6 cards versus red based decks. Not having blasts is a mistake.

disrupt is good vs. burn, too. it counters like all of their burn spells because they play their curve and gives you the bonus of an extra card.

[Esper3k]

I'd definitely board in Blue blasts, Extirpates, and Spell Snares. Take out Daze and Sinkhole.

Then you should probably board in Deeds, too, since Chalice shuts off your hate. Deed will bust a few moxen too.

Thanks! I was trying to consider if I should board out my mana disruption or not.

Do you think Stifle should go out before Sinkhole? That was my thought since Sinkhole will hit any of their lands and makes you slightly less hurt under Chalice @ 1?

I did:

-4 Stifle
-4 Sinkhole
-2 Snuff Out (since I was bringing in Deed)
+2 Pernicious Deed
+3 Extirpate
+3 Spell Snare
+1 Hydroblast
+1 Blue Elemental Blast

against Aggro Loam this weekend.

[nitewolf9]

Do you think Stifle should go out before Sinkhole? That was my thought since Sinkhole will hit any of their lands and makes you slightly less hurt under Chalice @ 1?

I did:

-4 Stifle
-4 Sinkhole
-2 Snuff Out (since I was bringing in Deed)
+2 Pernicious Deed
+3 Extirpate
+3 Spell Snare
+1 Hydroblast
+1 Blue Elemental Blast

against Aggro Loam this weekend.

I would leave stifle in against aggro loam over sinkhole, as nailing a first turn fetchland is a lot more devastating than anything sinkhole can do here. They are both going to be extremely situational, but at least stifle can pitch to force of will and will generate more tempo in the early game (albeit more conditionally).

I would strongly advise against cutting snuff outs against aggro loam. That is one of the most powerful cards you have against them. Waste lock is one of the major things you are afraid of in this matchup so your plan is to try and drop early threats while clearing theirs away. Deed is a bit slow but it is more powerful than alot of your disruption and nails their artifacts, so I guess it's fine.

I don't agree with extirpate at all in your sideboard, and most loam lists run burning wish anyway. What is this card supposed to do? I guess hitting wasteland can help, but it's still card disadvantage and very situational.

You can also consider cutting a few dazes if you run out of things to take out post board.

[keys]

Extirpating Loam can stall them until they find a Wish. Stifles are definitely useful against fetches, wastes, cycle, or even Crusher triggers. Nitewolf9's right that Snuff Out should stay in for sure. Dazes out for Snares since they play so many land + moxen, and half their deck is cmc 2.

(obviously I'm making this decisions based on your SB)

[Esper3k]

Yeah I almost considered leaving the BEB/Hydroblast in board because it gets hurt by their Chalice @ 1 and I have so many other things I want to bring in (like leaving 4 Snuff Out in and bringing in Deeds).

My thought on Deed was that if you blow it at 3, it destroys every permenant they have and if you have a Tombstalker out, that should pretty much wreck them?

[Koby]

Extirpating Life from the Loam under M10 rules is highly disruptive, and definitly worth the effort, especially if they started with a B.Wish for Loam to begin with.

[stu55]

Ok, so I just won my 3 tournament in a row with this deck. I went 3-1-1 in swiss and 3-0 in the top 8. This is just a mini-report and some thoughts.

Decklist:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Sinkhole
3 Ponder
3 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
3 Snuff Out
1 Thoughtseize
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
3 Tropical Island
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Thoughtseize
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Chill
2 Threads of Disloyalty


Rd 1: Zoo
Game 1: Basic disruption. He gets me down to 10 before I land some goyfs and Stalkers with counter back up as I destroy his manabase

I bring in 2 Threads/3 Edicts and take out 1 Seize and 4 Sinkhole

Game 2: I get too 13 or so before he runs out of critters, I drop a goyf, and then steal a goyf and it is over before long
1-0(2-0)


Rd 2: Pox
Game 1: We knock each other down with pox/sinkhole effects. I run out of lands. Turns into a topdeck war that he wins with Phyrexian Totem

I forget what I brought in but it didnt matter.

Game 2: Same thing happens, I run out of lands again, and Mishra's Factory and Nether Spirit take it home for him.
1-1 (2-2)


Rd 3: Aluren
Game 1: Kept him off double Green, he could never play a threat and stalker killed him. He missed attacks and played poorly and seemed to be new so this wasn't very close

Take out a couple Sinkholes for 2 thoughtseize

Game 2: I thoughtseize out an aluren and then have to counter a second one before I take control and goyf him out.
2-1(4-2)


Rd 4: Nassif C-balance
Game 1: I have a slow hand and can't work over his mana base. He gets me down with sowers. I drop goyf and Stalker, he then Shackles one of them and kills me with it.

I take out 2 Ponders I believe for 2 thoughtseize

Game 2: I just wreck his mana, he plays 2 C-balances after I get 2 goyfs out and it is over in short term.

Game 3: I am a bit slow, having drawn all 4 sinkholes and a tombstalker with a Sea and Trop in play. I eventually hit my 2 black, and proceed to sinkhole 4 lands in a row, along with a stilfe'd fetch and wasteland. Unfortunately, time is called and he StP my only threat and we draw. I would have won hands down had we had more time.
2-1-1 (5-3-1)


Rd 5: Zoo
Game 1: Is similar to round 1, game 1, and I just get there with 2 Goyfs.

I bring in the same SB package as Rd 1.

Game 2: This one was odd. I have him down to 1, and I am at 8. Totally in control. He mises a top deck red souce and proceeds to price to progress us both for the draw. Awkward.

Game 3: He gets me down fast with a pair of Lavamancer's and then kills me with Price to Progress.

Game 4: I end this one at 17 life, so it seems it wasn't very close. I assume goyfs got there. I know deed got me a 3 for 1 at some point.
3-1-1 (7-4-2)

Top8:
Ad Naus
White Stax
Pox
Team America (Me)
Dreadstill
2x Zoo
Enchantress


Quarters: Zoo (Rd 5 opponent)
Game 1: About the same as all my game 1s against this deck. I just manage to get there with enough Stalker Damage.

Same package as always...

Game 2: Also not close, burn and a snuff out gets me to 10, but I have enough counters to stop most of what he does and Goyfs take the rest.

Ad Naus beats Enchantress
Pox beats Zoo
Stax beats Dreadstill


Semis: Ad Naus
Game 1: He tries to go off with Ad Naus on turn 2-3 and I force it and proceed to Goyf for the win.

Take out 3 Snuff out and 1 Sinkhole for 2 Thoughtseize and 2 Chill.

Game 2: Turn 2 for him, I am sitting on 1 sea up and I have daze and stifle in hand. This turn took like 20 minutes literally. He casts some spells and Ill gotten gains. I pitch my hand and recoup Stifle, Daze, and Ponder while he gets LED, Dark Ritual, and Infernal Tutor. He has 1 mana floating at this point, Ritual puts him to 4, and casts LED and I proceed to float blue and Daze it. After a long time he decides pay 1. Plays Tutor for Ad Naus hoping to win on another turn. After a few turns of draw-go, I get a goyf out and start ruining his mana base. He had one last shot with Burning Wish which I spell snare'd.


Finals: Pox (Loss from round 2)
I offer the draw, but he wants to rock and roll, so we do.

Game 1: We get into a top deck war, and I had enough mana to keep playing things. Goyfs gets me there in the end while he cant get past 2 mana.

Bring in 3 Edicts and take out 3 Snuff Out.

Game 2: A couple misplaces cost him in this game. I have a deed out and 4 mana up. He activates Factory and swings with it and Spirit which I both deed out which he forgot about the Factory, so it died too. I tap out next turn for a tombstalker and something else. His turn he forgets to bring back spirit and plays tombstalker. I get to untap and use the diabolic edict to kill his stalker and he can't get there off the top decks.
3-0 (6-0)


Zoo was amazingly easy for me once I had the edict/threads package. Chill was in there to replace snuff out where it is useless so FoW could get more stuff to pitch and in the red matchup so it isn't an auto loss. I like this SB a lot, and I think going up to 3 threads/2 chills might even be better.

[kikkofrio]

So...any advice for a complete SB in this meta?

I think

3 krosan grip
2 pithing needle for sensei, vial, relic, survival, tormod and many others
3 pernicious dead
3 divert
2 perish

and 2...?

[keys]

So...any advice for a complete SB in this meta?

I think

3 krosan grip
2 pithing needle for sensei, vial, relic, survival, tormod and many others
3 pernicious dead
3 divert
2 perish

and 2...?

Your weaknesses look to be Ichorid and Sligh/Burn, so Tormod's Crypt or Hydroblast/BEB/Chill would be a good addition.

[stu55]

So...any advice for a complete SB in this meta?

I think

3 krosan grip
2 pithing needle for sensei, vial, relic, survival, tormod and many others
3 pernicious dead
3 divert
2 perish

and 2...?



I dont know your list, but the question you have to ask yourself is "why am I running this card, what do I take out, and what matchup does it help."

I almost always include 4 Leyline of the Void in my SB. No reason to get caught with pants down against Ichorid and it is good against so many decks. The argument "you dont have rituals" is an awful that has almost no meaning what so ever. Plenty of vintage decks run this card without rituals, because it comes into play for free.


Chill > BEB because it affects multiple spells, you will more than likely lose if you are trading spell for spell with the red deck. Chill at least does 2 things A) Makes the red deck clock slower and B) You can bring it in for snuff out for the Combo Matchup since it is less dead (can pitch to FoW).

[keys]

I dont know your list, but the question you have to ask yourself is "why am I running this card, what do I take out, and what matchup does it help."

I almost always include 4 Leyline of the Void in my SB. No reason to get caught with pants down against Ichorid and it is good against so many decks. The argument "you dont have rituals" is an awful that has almost no meaning what so ever. Plenty of vintage decks run this card without rituals, because it comes into play for free.


Chill > BEB because it affects multiple spells, you will more than likely lose if you are trading spell for spell with the red deck. Chill at least does 2 things A) Makes the red deck clock slower and B) You can bring it in for snuff out for the Combo Matchup since it is less dead (can pitch to FoW).

On Leyline, you say you don't want to be caught with your pants down, but what happens when you don't draw it in your opening 7? You're waiting four turns before those pants are coming back up. It's not like a turn zero Leyline is gg either; most board 4-6 Chain of Vapor/Wispmare. I really think Crypt is better here, since you can dig for it and play it the same turn. The OPs swore by this choice and I'm in agreement. Plus, more and more players are dropping Needle for Gargadon.

On Chill, I think you're spot on. To win versus burn/sligh, you need cards that will swing the game, not just trade 1-for-1. I've started playing 3 Divert, 2 Chill, 0 blasts. Divert has the added value of being incredible in the Eva Green matchup as well. The problem with this is losing turn 1 counters for Blood Moon... so I'm unsure if it's the right decision.

[stu55]

Well, you have to mull until you get the Leyline, in Dredge otherwise you are probably losing anyway. Leyline is just so good against other decks like 43land and Survival that I don't see a reason not to have it. I dont understand this Gargadon for Needle thing?

[socialite]

Well, you have to mull until you get the Leyline, in Dredge otherwise you are probably losing anyway. Leyline is just so good against other decks like 43land and Survival that I don't see a reason not to have it. I dont understand this Gargadon for Needle thing?

They use Gargadon as anti removal/graveyard hate. Avoids graveyard and you can sack targeted items to it.

[Sage]

Stu55;

Nice tournament report. My friend playing Pox deffinitely made some play mistakes in G2 that lost it for him in the finals. I think he was nervous being his first real Legacy Tournament and all. I hate playing against his list every time we play Legacy. The only times I am able to beat him is with CB/top, and sometimes that isn't enough. Pox is deffinitely a better deck than people give it credit for.

That had to be the most diverse meta I've ever seen. Also, I really like your choice of Chill in the SB over blasts. The synergy with land destruction is perfect.

I was wondering if the Snuff-out's/Thoughtseize felt like too much life loss or not. When I tried Team America, that's what turned me off to the deck. Although, I was also running all 4 Thoughtseize's and D-Confidant...

Sage

[nitewolf9]

Well, you have to mull until you get the Leyline, in Dredge otherwise you are probably losing anyway. Leyline is just so good against other decks like 43land and Survival that I don't see a reason not to have it.

I disagree with this completely. I have cut yard hate from my board completely and have never looked back. You can beat ichorid without it. Plus, it's never really present in sufficient numbers to warrant such narrow cards in your sideboard. I don't know where you are playing where 43land is a sufficient meta concern, but you can beat them without yard hate as well. Play Tombstalker, keep blowing up Maze of Ith, counter Manabond. Survival is generally a good matchup for you anyway because of how mana hungry the deck is, unless you get paired against Elf Survival. Then you really want Plague, not Leyline.

I'd be more concerned with Merfolk, Elf Survival, Zoo, Counter/Top, Landstill (the "3 color" builds with lots of basics and shit tons of cheap removal), and maybe Sligh.

[keys]

Survival is generally a good matchup for you anyway because of how mana hungry the deck is, unless you get paired against Elf Survival. Then you really want Perish, not Leyline.

fixed :)

[lolosoon]

So, last night we've got a huge team playtest session.

I mean, huge, like in "8pm-6am huge playtest session" x_x

I brought and test several decks (Elves Survival, Bant Thresh) and my take on Team America.

Here's the list :

// Beatstick : 9
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Tombstalker
2x Vendillion Clique
// Countermeasure : 11
4x FoW
4x Daze
3x SpellSnare
// Disruption : 8
4x Stifle
4x Sinkhole
// Dig&Filter : 8
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
// Removal : 4
4x Snuff Out
// Manabase : 20
4x Underground Sea
3x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
4x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
1x BloodStained Mire
4x Wasteland

Beside the obvious core cards, the main changes are :
- Inclusion of SpellSnare instead of ThoughtSeize
Beside Thoughtseize being a bad topDeck (not too revelant when compared to Snare), with Zoo, Goblin, GoyfSligh, Goblins and Burn around here, the life loss of 'Seize was too important.
Plus, beeing able to handle the best TopDecked Legacy Cards (Goyf, CB, Confidant, Burning Wish...) AND Price of Progress is obviously where SpellSnare shine.

- Inclusion of Vendillion Clique
Upping the threat density was a thing I was working on for some time. I have proposed and tested Coatl but he is not 100% reliant cause I often used my cantrips to dig for additionnal and early disruption and answers.
So when the snake could attack, he was just a mere Vanilla 3/3.
Clique was a good Idea : 3 damages a turn with evasion and build-in disruption.
To be honest : I was disapointed by the Clique and often wished it was an additionnal Stalker.
In the Future, I'll test 1x Clique beside the full sets of Goyfs&Stalkers...


Now, my Sideboard for this night was :
3x Hydroblast
3x Divert
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Pernicious Deed
2x Engineered Explosives
3x Krosan Grip

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, about the test session :

Goyf Sligh (classic old list with a light white splash (2x Plateau) for MD Nacatl<=>Lava Spike switch).
Total : 3-2 - PreBoard : 0-2 - Postboard : 3-0

SB tables :
On the play +3 Hydroblast +3 Divert +2 EE -2 Cliques -1 Daze -4 SnuffOut -1 Stifle
On the Draw +3 Hydroblast +3 Divert +2 EE -2 Cliques -4 Daze -2 SnuffOut

Clearly, I am tuning my SB to get a good Zoo//Sligh//Burn matchup post-board. Those decks are horrendous opponents, and G1 is like a night walk in the park for them.

The thing is, I have much to board in, but it's hard to side out some card like Stifle and Sinkhole 'cause the 3Color manabase of his list can be easily disrupted (fetching basic mountains are not that good when playing Kird Ape and Nacatl). Also, I was fearing Relics from his board, so I tried to keep the stifle count as high as possible.

Divert was clearly the MVP. 2-for-1'ing Zoo diverting a bolt on their Nacatl//Apes gives enought time to recover and race them back post-board.

I have no remorses using SnuffOut on a Turn1 Nacatl as my only out when the pesky kitten passed through my early BEB//Snare counterwall.

With Hydroblasts and MD Snares, the burn protection package is well rounded and you 'only' have to handle those pesky Goyfs and/or PoP.

I was a bit disappointed with Cliques. Dying to every removal in Sligh//Zoo + Lavamancer is weak, but even as a surprise blocker they couldn't do their job correctly (Lavamancers).

My teammate brought(brang?) in Chokes and REB and Shusher but :
- Choke 3cc is weak when you lose 3 of your 17 lands in the first 4 turns
- Idem for shusher 'cause you have bad time keeping 1 mana up and casting your spells vs TA hate package. PLUS Diverting a spell ain't Countering it (Divert a Bolt on shusher made my day btw)

Rbg Goblins (with Mad Autie, the new Lord, and Mout + 4xWW 3xGempalm 2xStingscourger MD oO; )
Total : 0-4 - PreBoard : 0-2 - Postboard : 0-2

SB tables : +3 Hydroblast +2 EE +2 Pernicious Deed -4 Daze -1 Stifle -1 Sinkhole -1 Ponder
I kept the snares in cause I knew his list and was afraid of his removal package

Reaaaaaaally disapointing. But I got lucksacked all games...
Not really lucksacked, but the deck shit on me this time.

First game, pre-board :
I Snuff his 1st turn lackey, Force his 2nd Turn Vial, Stifle, Waste and Sinkole his lands, SpellSnare some Piledriver and so on for 6-7 turns.
If you came at the table at his moment I was facing an clean, neat, empty board with 2xU.Seas, 1xBayou, 1xTropical by my side and a hand which consisted of 2xSnuffOut 2xFoW.

Guess what ?! Yeah, I lost that one.
- I never drew any beater in the first 10 rounds
- Turns 8&9 I couldn't handle his 2 land drops in a row
- I then topDeck a Goyf and he WW it => I FoW
- Next turn, he WW again and I didn't draw another blue card among Daze, SpellSnare or Brainstorm//Ponder
- I then proceed to topdeck fetches, fetch for more lands and topdeck lands or fetch in rounds 10-13 among now useless Snares
- I Hardcast SnuffOut twice to get rid on Warchief and a 2nd Piledriver (1st was Snared) but I get slid with a Ringleader for PileDriver, Matron and WW//Stingscourger and died in 3-4 turn after that.

I never drew another Goyf or Stalker with backup for his WW.

In the 3 games which followed I was out of the game. Still, I handle lackeys and vials with EE or FoW to shut his early engine down, Stifle some matrons and Ringleaders, but Warchief and lords beatdown with too much removal backup killed me.

He even hadn't to draw his Perish or relics all SB games...

Deed was disappointing, but it didn't surprise me due to Goblin disruption and high CC beatsticks. I only once swept the board with deed, but it was a desparate move : the previous asssault put me too low in life and 2 mere goblins took me down while multiple WW and Stingscourgers handled my blockers.

I really don't know if it was sheer bad luck, bold and bad moves from me or just a really bad matchup for TA or my build, but I'm still bitter about those matchs.

Then I moved on to face TempoThresh and wreck it like the deck is meant(?) to do.

I've made some previous test vs Burn (with Fanatics, Hellspark AND Marauders) and I must say that it wasn't the beating I was afraid of. SpellSnare, Daze, FoW are not enough to slow them down, but when you add SinkHole and early Goyf//Stalker beating, you can race them Game1.

BEB are 'good' but Divert is stellar : slowing their clock and speed up yours is priceless.

Just don't get caught your pants down postBoard by a random Ensnaring Bridge (and by PoP obv.) and this matchup is winnable.

I still have to make more tests vs a competent Ichorid, Storm and Landstill player (whom we have in the Team, but hadn't the time to test all the matchup for everyone's favored deck), but the list seems quite tuned.

Still, later in the session I swith to Bant Thresh and the results were FAR better than the ones listed above. The thing is : vs TempoThresh it was like 50-50 where with TA I felt I had the upper hand on this matchup.

In conclusion : I'm not sure I'm ready to bring TA in the next 30+ tournament... At least with that horrendous Goblin matchup.

[keys]

Good insights. Well I played in a 24 man tourney yesterday and went 1-2 drop. I'll write a quick summary.

I used the basic list -1 Ponder, -2 Thoughtseize, +1 Maelstrom Pulse, +2 Spell Snare, with this SB:

3 Divert
3 Hydroblast (I kept these in just for the D Stompy match... Grrrrrr)
2 Perish
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
1 Engineered Explosives

First round (haven't scouted, no idea what he's playing) vs. Dragon Stompy I'm on the draw. He mulls to 5, I keep a hand with heavy LD: 2 Stifle, Waste, Sinkhole, a Ponder maybe. He's Mountain go. I draw a Stalker or something, and play a fetch. Next turn is City, Trinisphere. I waste his city, and a couple turns later Sinkhole his Mountain, hoping to lock him under his own Sphere. Then he goes City, SSG, Blood Moon. I have no Force/Daze and I'm tapped out anyway.

Game 2 I keep a hand with 2 Hydroblast, Ponder, K Grip, and fetches. He goes first turn Chalice=1 and follows up next turn with a Magus...

D stompy just hoses this deck if they get lucky. I'm seriously thinking about putting a basic Island and Forest SB. That would probably help out more than blasts against D Stompy and Burn (Merfolk too).

Next round I won handily versus CounterTop w/Black. One game I played 3 Stalkers and he forced them all. The 4th one stuck after I blew up all his lands ;)

Third round I get paired with Burn. I saw one blast, no Divert in both games. He had multiple Prices and I had no chance...




I think this deck is good in a developed metagame with lots of Top and Combo/Control. But it just gets eaten alive by random red shit. If I play this again I will be trying out basics in the SB.

[Koby]

You played against me round 3. Even with Diverts they can't stop Price of Progress.

I'm surprised that TA doesn't switch to the Threshold shell of 1 island 2 swamp 1 forest. Having all the nonbasics is such a liability to random land hate. Even Merfolk can cripple TA with Back to Basics or repeated applications of Wasteland.

[kikkofrio]

I made 4-2 at italian legacy national yesterday.
I lost first and last turn vs merfolk. I think that deed is not enough in this MU.

I played this SB

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 3 [OD] Divert
SB: 2 [6E] Perish
SB: 2 [TE] Chill

1: merfolk 0-2
2: Survival 2-0
3: Goblin rw 2-0
4: Burn 2-0
5: Enchantress 2-0
6: Merfolk 1-2

I'm considering put Propaganda in Chill slot, and cutting a krosan for 4th divert.

[keys]

How the hell do you 2-0 burn? Please tell me your secret!


You played against me round 3. Even with Diverts they can't stop Price of Progress.

I'm surprised that TA doesn't switch to the Threshold shell of 1 island 2 swamp 1 forest. Having all the nonbasics is such a liability to random land hate. Even Merfolk can cripple TA with Back to Basics or repeated applications of Wasteland.

The problem with this is that it's very common to keep 1-land + Ponder, or 1-land + 1 Wasteland hands, and in those scenarios basics will ruin your day. They slow you down a lot. But it might be worth it in those few matchups, so it should be tested in the SB.

[Koby]

I've been testing a version of TA with less dependence on mana denial and more on hand disruption. ie. Sinkhole -> Hymn to Tourach. When backed up with Thoughtseize, it can do a lot more damage than just disrupting the land base. I definitly see the benefit for Sinkhole, but disagree that it is a better strategy when you consider that Legacy is all about 1 and 2 drops.

The basics haven't hurt me in testing. I run 1 Island 2 Swamp, no forests. The Forest would support exactly 6 cards: Goyfs and Maelstrom Pulse, and I can sandbag a green dual or fetchland in case I need access to it. I also added 2 Vendilion Cliques and they have been nothing but positive, along with further raping my opponent's hand.

The way I see this deck is a darker Tempo Thresh, and play it accordingly.

[stu55]

So, went 2-2 at the legacy events at nats. I started off 2-0, beating 2 Red Burn Decks. Chill is just a massive beating.

I lost to dragon stompy, who ended game 1 ten seconds with a Magus of the Moon on turn 1. I really want a swamp in this main deck so I can snuff out that thing.

Also lost to a C-top list with Nimble when in game 3 he StP all 4 of my tombstalkers and had Meddling Mage on Goyf. I was topdecking to one of my 2 deeds and never saw them. Just an awkward match.

I really think I want more threats in this deck, but it just seems so tight. Terravore might be heading back into the deck, and I might be cutting down on the graveyard hate in the SB to make up for it too.

[keys]

You never saw a Snuff Out for that Mage either? Dang. I've never felt the deck is creature light, but I can definitely see the argument for a 9th threat such as Clique.

With all the trouble I've had with Burn and Sligh, I'm thinking this sideboard is the way to go:

4 Divert
2 Krosan Grip
2 Perish (If only Infest was -3/-3 I would probably play that)
4 Chill
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives

I would like to fit a Swamp somewhere, too, just to Snuff Out Magus. Maybe maindeck instead of a Sea? A forest for Grip/Goyf would be helpful as well but not as necessary. Island doesn't seem useful to me without BEB, and BEB just isn't cutting it anymore...

[kikkofrio]

You never saw a Snuff Out for that Mage either? Dang. I've never felt the deck is creature light, but I can definitely see the argument for a 9th threat such as Clique.

With all the trouble I've had with Burn and Sligh, I'm thinking this sideboard is the way to go:

4 Divert
2 Krosan Grip
2 Perish (If only Infest was -3/-3 I would probably play that)
4 Chill
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives

I would like to fit a Swamp somewhere, too, just to Snuff Out Magus. Maybe maindeck instead of a Sea? A forest for Grip/Goyf would be helpful as well but not as necessary. Island doesn't seem useful to me without BEB, and BEB just isn't cutting it anymore...

good choice.
I will try this:

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 4 [OD] Divert
SB: 2 [6E] Perish
SB: 2 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives

[stu55]

My Threads/Edict package plus snuff out is usually more than enough against Zoo.

Against burn, with 2 Chill, I think it is enough because only one needs to stick really. I would Mulligan sort of aggressive to get it.

[keys]

It's your worst matchup. 2 copies aren't really enough to find consistently, and won't be good unless you have other answers to rely on.

I wouldn't hesitate to reserve a full 8 SB cards for Burn: 4 Divert, 4 Chill.

Divert is also fantastic versus Eva, good versus TES, and Chill is decent in the same matchups as REB.

I still don't understand the point of Edict. I just think Perish is better 9/10 times. I like the Threads though they occupy spots in the SB at cmc=3 whereas Perish hits the stuff your Snuff Outs can't (shrouded/protection stuff and swarms), and Deed is more versatile.

[Esper3k]

The thing that Edicts hit, which Deed/Perish/Threads all don't answer is opposing Tombstalkers.

[keys]

The thing that Edicts hit, which Deed/Perish/Threads all don't answer is opposing Tombstalkers.

Fair enough. But the mirror isn't very common, and it's still not guaranteed to hit if you're playing Eva. You could always split Pulses with Snuff Out maindeck if you anticipate a lot of black. Just doesn't seem like the best use of a SB spot to me.

[stu55]

I am thinking of something like this:

3 Crypt
3 Edict
3 Threads
3 Thoughtseize
3 Threads


Get a hold of me on AIM if you want to discuss (stoopskoo15 is my name, it is on all day usually)

[keys]

You love those threads.:wink:

[stu55]

Threads is unreal, take their goyf or something and they cant do anything bout it

[Esper3k]

Fair enough. But the mirror isn't very common, and it's still not guaranteed to hit if you're playing Eva. You could always split Pulses with Snuff Out maindeck if you anticipate a lot of black. Just doesn't seem like the best use of a SB spot to me.

Don't get me wrong - I don't like Edict myself, but I believe that's the reason why people use it is all :)

[stu55]

Also good against Progenitus

[keys]

I am thinking of something like this:

3 Crypt
3 Edict
3 Threads
3 Thoughtseize
3 Threads


Get a hold of me on AIM if you want to discuss (stoopskoo15 is my name, it is on all day usually)

[stu55]

Ok, make 3 of those Chills, hah

[Thoughtseizer]

Do you really think that 3-4 chills is really worth the precious side board space when you already play the far superior REB/ HB?

Also REB with divert is already solid against burn which is a tier 2 deck to begin with in this format any ways. Moreover, goblins have really been dying out lately and divert is not solid tech against Gobs or dragon stompy. Furthermore, REB is much better against dragon stompy which is the top mono red deck right now in legacy.

[lolosoon]

Ok, so know that we've got the Enemy Fetchlands out of Zendikar, what will be their impact on TeamAmerica ?!

First, I can see the B/G one played in TA's Manabase instead of those Flooded Strands which couldn't fetch for the lone bayou of the deck.

Then, more Fetches = more power for the Stifle playset we're packing.

But Thresh, our usual prey, can know Fetch a lone forest beside their classic basic island(s), making Wasteland less important in mana denial strategies like TA//TempoThresh.

The thing is, beside EvaGreen or some Pox//Rockish deck, we are the one competitive Legacy deck that can easily get rid of them with Sinkhole (that is even truer for the forest 'cause they can't Daze it back to hand).
(i dismiss Goblins' Rishadan Port on purpose)

So, will mana-denial strategies be viable and competitive in the near future ? Will CanadianThresh be more impacted than TA with this change ?

And if it would, can TA takes the place of the former Tier1 Tempo build of Threshold ? Or are Zoo decks too present now for TA to make any comeback ?!

[Joon]

I guess the mana base of Team America is a bit more stable with U/G and B/G Fetchlands (and Delta of course), which can all fetch every dual in the deck.

One could think about increasing the number of Fetchlands in this deck, too though this would mean to cut duals which not a great plan.

At the moment I play the following manabase:

4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland

After the Release of the new fetchies it would be possible to play

4 Polluted Delta
3 U/G Fetchland
3 B/G Fetchland
4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland

Time will tell if two green sources are enough.

[Svenyboy]

2 green sources aren't enough. You have to play 2 Tropical Island. Cut -1 BG Fetchie and + 1 Tropical Island.

[Joon]

Can you come up with reasons? Just stealing my name from German forums doesn't make you sound more competetive.

In my testings I always found one source on the table and one in the deck to be the right number. You basically never need two green producing lands in play and in case your opponent destroys one you still have the other one (with a higher chance to find it with ten fetchlands).

[kikkofrio]

Actually, I don't think news fetches can improve TA.

Although TA is out of meta now, (couse of Zoo and Merfolks), I'm working on this SB to improve these MU.

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [OD] Divert
SB: 2 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 3 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [DIS] Spell Snare

[nitewolf9]

I think the new fetches will most certainly help this deck. Both the U/G and B/G fetches can get any dual in the deck, as opposed to having to split Strand and Mire before, which can either not fetch the bayou or not fetch trop.

I have been working on this deck since the rise of zoo and merfolk and I think I am close to a build that works. Sadly I don't think Sinkhole is very viable right now, mainly because of how bad it is against merfolk.

[Nantuko]

This deck without sinkhole???
ANd how is the list?

I want to play TA this Saturday but this comment confuse me

[Skeggi]

There are plenty TA lists that run Hymn to Tourach instead of Sinkhole. If you can't mana-screw enough with Stifle and Wasteland, Sinkhole isn't going to do much either.

[kikkofrio]

I don't think it's tourach the sinkhole alternative for aggro MU...:rolleyes:

[kikkofrio]

What about spell pierce in TA MD or SB?

[Joon]

Spell Snare is also interesting in the Sinkhole slot. It doesn't generate card advantage like Hymn, but counters Goyfs/Jitte/PoP in Aggro Matchups.

In the thread of Canadian Threshold peepz discussed about Force Spike some time ago. If you can run that card in Canadian Threshold, you should be able to do so in Team America too.

That new Force Spike can't counter creatures which sucks pretty much. Maybe as a sideboard card, though.

If you want to improve the aggro MU you could also try to play more Removal in the slot of Sinkhole (e.g. the Sideboard card Diabolic Edict).

Generally Sinkhole has lost a lot of strenght because of the "new wave of lightning bolt decks", as those decks can spit critters on the board before you can blow their lands away.

[kikkofrio]

I don't think so.

TA and canandian are 2 different deck.
Canadian is a threshold.
TA is a suicide.

So, you usually play canadian in instant speed, playing spells in opponent turn, except for creatures.
TA is a sorcery speed deck, except for stifle, and other alternative cost istant.
Seize, sinkhole, creature. I often play brainstorm in my turn in sorcery speed.

That means that the addition of spell pierce would have differents effects from canadian to TA, and, it's the same reason becouse Ta don't run spell snare.

In addition to that, spell pierce is more synergic to TA strategy, that canadian's.

I wouldn't improve aggro mu with pierce, but improve the deck in general, obv, thinking that is addition would be stronger in TA than in canadian.

[DragoFireheart]

I think taking out Sinkhole is a mistake as that card is one of the main reasons to run black. If you want to take out Sinkhole, you may as well go Red and be a Tempo Thresh deck if Zoo decks are being a pain in the ass.

[ScatmanX]

I have never played TA, but it is bad against Zoo? I mean, zoo has already a weak manabase. Stifle + Waste + Sinkhole, you can preety much heck them, right?

[DragoFireheart]

I have never played TA, but it is bad against Zoo? I mean, zoo has already a weak manabase. Stifle + Waste + Sinkhole, you can preety much heck them, right?

Most of Zoo's spells are stupidly cheap, so mana denial will slow them down but won't completely stop them. Furthermore, your thoughtseizes and Snuff Outs act like free burn, putting you closer to kill range.

[kikkofrio]

I'm actually trying this SB configuration in order to improve merfolk and zoo mu.

// Sideboard

SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [OD] Divert
SB: 2 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 3 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [OD] Ghastly Demise

What do you think about it?

[jazzykat]

Divert tends to own burn/suicide type decks. I'm not sure what to do about merfolk although I'm sure that if they land vial then all of your LD is about useless so you may want needles.

[Esper3k]

You could always run Deed in the board if you're worried about stuff like Merfolk?

[kikkofrio]

I tried this SB last sunday in a 132+ italian tourney.

SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [OD] Divert
SB: 2 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 3 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [OD] Ghastly Demise

I made 5-2-1. These was the pairing:

1. CounterTop Bant: 2-0
2. My Faeries Ubr: 1-1 (my teammate)
3. Imperial Painter: 2-0 :cool:
4. Merfolk Ur: 0-2
5. Enchantress: 2-0
6. CounterTop: 2-1
7. CounterTop: 1-2 (but I probably would have won the game if I had called the judge)
8. Aggroo Loam: 2-0

So, actually, I think this Sb configuration is good for this meta.
3-1, e.e-krosan is optimal.

I sided 11 cards vs merfolk, but it wasn't enough.:frown:
Maybe I will try with 2 demise and 1 smother becouse of too many demise with 4 stalker don't always work.

Perish (#2) would be useful.

I'm beginning to think that plague are not so strong vs tribal (merfolk runs 12 lord, and Goblin always sides in krosan and disenchant vs black).

[Benie Bederios]

Dear People,

I'm planning to play this deck on a big competitive tournament and have time to test in 2 smaller tourney's. I'm expecting alot of combo and Thresh-like( Counterbalance) decks. So I feel TA would be good choice, correct me if I'm wrong. Hopefully most players keep Merfolk at home.

This is the build I have ATM.


4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Sinkhole
4 Stifle
4 Snuff Out
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

//Sideboard
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Extirpate
2 Reanimate
3 Krosan Grip

The SB is quite thrown together. Pernicious Deed will probably become something else, but at the first tournament( Sunday) I expect a lesser Meta, so the sweeper might come in use.

In the MD there are also cards open to discussion. I felt I needed another creature and Clique came best out of the tested cards: Clique, Trygon Predator and Sea Drake. It's 3-power and Evasion. Flash is always nice, the ability quite good, especially if you're manascrewing the opponent and wondering wich color he needs the most. It's a pity it's in place of Thoughtseize. Are the creatures needed, or is it my weak playskill and/or mull-decisions?

2 Thoughtseize is my other slot of discussion. I like to add another, but don't know what to cut. I saw other players use Spell Snare too, wich looks good.

Another thing I noticed in this thread is the severe lack of GY Hate in the SB. Isn't it needed, or is it a metagame choice.

Anyway tips for a metagame consistent off ANT, Thresh, Ichorid?

Benie

[kikkofrio]

Pernicious is too slow for TA, I would cut it and add 3 e.e. that are also good vs zoo and bant.

Seize is one of most powerfull cards of the deck, don't cut it. In addition to that, it is not a late game card. I wanna see it in first hand, so, playing 2 seize is useless.

Vendilion is a good card, and could be the best 3th creature. Despite that, TA is not canadian, and it don't play in istant speed, so flash ability could be not so powerfull.

If you want to play a vendilion, try cutting a snuff out.

Tribal MU could be very hard, and you are going to be a bye for ichorid.

[Hanni]

This probably doesn't belong in here, since it's as different to Team America as Team America is to DreadStalker. Still, this is what I've been fooling around with:

U/B/r Tempo Aggro/Control (TAC?)

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
4 [A] Underground Sea
1 [U] Volcanic Island
1 [R] Badlands
1 [7E] Island (2)
1 [BD] Swamp (1)
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
4 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [DD2] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [A] Sinkhole
4 [MM] Snuff Out

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [DIS] Spell Snare
SB: 3 [A] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 4 [FD] Engineered Explosives

I realize that Tarmogoyf is amazing, and I realize that I dropped him for Clique. Clique costs 1 more mana, which makes him slower, and his body is smaller than your average 4/5 Goyf. However, his evasion can make him deal damage faster than Goyf through ground blockers, and his ability can protect him against removal, which I feel is important in such a threat-light deck.

I also replaced Thoughtseize with Spell Pierce, since Thoughtseize doesn't generate tempo, and Spell Pierce protects my threats against removal better when the opponent has multiple removal spells in hand. With evasive beats, I'm less concerned with opposing creatures, so hitting noncreatures doesn't seem as relevant. Spell Pierce is a great answer against alot of spells, especially with the powerful LD suite.

Dropping green allows me to splash red for Firespout, which is such a badass card in here. It's basically a one-sided Wrath of God against aggro decks.

This is probably a massive butchering to Team America, but I wanted to try something outside the box. I figure running nothing but evasive beats allows the beats to more easily connect, Clique and Spell Pierce are great at protecting the low threat base against removal, and Firespout is a massive beating against aggro decks.

Anyway, sorry for derailing the thread with a decklist that probably doesn't belong here, and is probably much worse than standard Team America.

[emidln]

Clique costs 1 more mana, which makes him slower, and his body is smaller than your average 4/5 Goyf. However, his evasion can make him deal damage faster than Goyf through ground blockers, and his ability can protect him against removal, which I feel is important in such a threat-light deck.
...
With evasive beats, I'm less concerned with opposing creatures, so hitting noncreatures doesn't seem as relevant.
...
I figure running nothing but evasive beats allows the beats to more easily connect, Clique and Spell Pierce are great at protecting the low threat base against removal, and Firespout is a massive beating against aggro decks.

While I don't necessarily disagree with this, I could see where you might very easily get ran over by a couple quick dudes. Team America often used Thoughtseize and Spell Snare to keep enemy dudes off the table which let their slower but larger beaters win the game relatively efficiently. I plan on testing this some, but I'm going in really wondering if something like Nacatl, go is going to break me given that my only real answers to it on the draw are Snuff Out and Force of Will. If an opponent follows up a turn 1 threat with another threat I could be in a really bad position making my V.Clique into a removal spell while depriving me of a win condition (something Goyf didn't suffer as much).

In any testing, did you ever encounter this?

[whienot]

Not to mention you can drop multiple Goyfs against aggro, something you cannot do with Clique.

Edit: I can see this being great in a more controllish meta. Having a Spell Snare proof threat base is pretty awesome.

[kikkofrio]

Not to mention you can drop multiple Goyfs against aggro, something you cannot do with Clique.

...and many other reasons I have already explained make ubr version subottimal...

Ta is not Canadian,
Ta is not Faeries.

Ta doesn't play in istant speed and doesn't stay open for clique/pierce and other.

Play Ta.

[Hanni]

...and many other reasons I have already explained make ubr version subottimal...

Ta is not Canadian,
Ta is not Faeries.

Ta doesn't play in istant speed and doesn't stay open for clique/pierce and other.

Play Ta.

Does my version looks like it plays in sorcery speed? Nope. Is being sorcery speed even relevant for a tempo deck? Nope. It doesn't really matter either way, so whether or not it's good or not has nothing to do with sorcery vs instant speed. It's more a matter of does Clique do enough, I would think.

[kikkofrio]

U/B/r Tempo Aggro/Control (TAC?)

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
4 [A] Underground Sea
1 [U] Volcanic Island
1 [R] Badlands
1 [7E] Island (2)
1 [BD] Swamp (1)
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [MOR] Vendilion Clique ---> 4 legendary vs 4 tarmo --> subottimal
4 [FUT] Tombstalker ---> sorcery

// Spells
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [M10] Ponder ---> sorcery
4 [SC] Stifle ---> istant
4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce ---> istant
4 [DD2] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [A] Sinkhole ---> sorcery
4 [MM] Snuff Out



The question isn't is a tempo deck must be sorcery or istant.

The problem is: if you play tempo as TA, play sorcery, if you want to play tempo as canandian or faeries, play istant.

Playing istant and sorcery spell all together is not the best way you have to build a tempo deck.

For example:

- 1st turn: stay open for stifle, always.
- 2nd turn. Stay open for pierce or play sinkhole? The choice could be not the best choice.

With TA I don't have this problem:
2nd turn play sinkhole, and I can play my istant spells couse of they have an alternative mana cost.

Ok?

[Hanni]

You're not making any sense.


For example:

- 1st turn: stay open for stifle, always.
- 2nd turn. [Cast Thoughtseize] or play sinkhole? The choice could be not the best choice.

With [the deck I posted] I don't have this problem:
2nd turn play sinkhole, and I can play my istant spells couse of they have an alternative mana cost.

Ok?

Fixed.

[4eak]

@ kikkofrio

I'm pretty sure all tempo decks play both instant and non-instant speed spells. I don't think you did a great job of isolating differences between Hanni's deck and the average build of TA.


@ Hanni

You've basically traded [Thoughtseize + Goyf] for [Spell Pierce + Cliques], right?

Ouch. I'd call the former set 'staples' in any Black-based Tempo/Suicide deck, and the latter set is teetering on the edge of viability, at best, those cards would have a place in a highly metagamed version of this deck.

If you don't expect to face any deck with 12+ creatures in it, then I would be more willing to agree to the direction your deck is going. Otherwise, I think the versatility of Thoughtseize and the raw efficiency of Goyf as both a blocker and attacker are too necessary. If I was facing combo all day long, I could better understand why you'd use that setup. However, both Thoughtseize and the raw clock of Goyf would be pretty close in utility to the cards you've suggested in such matchups.

Splashing red for sweepers doesn't seem like an effective use of the color for this deck. Lightning bolt and Fire/Ice are prevalent enough that you should explain why you aren't trying to include those first. REB might not be terrible either. More importantly, by the time sweeping is profitable, you are already fighting an uphill battle that I don't see you winning. I think Goyf is a much, much better "catch-all". Removing Goyf+thoughtseize and playing non-creature disruption + Red sweepers is not going to cut it against opposing aggro strategies.

I think Spell Pierce is really best as a defensive counterspell, but I wouldn't class it as an offensive one that helps you push your spells through. I'd rather have the offensive potency of Thoughtseize in the early game than the slightly better topdecks you would see from a Spell pierce. I'd actually prefer Duress to Spell Pierce if you aren't going to play against any aggro decks.

I think Clique's flying isn't that impressive in this deck. If you needed to fly over creatures, then you were probably already losing that one. You want to win before they can get+keep threats on the table. TS can block and has the 4 turn clock (not the 7 turn clock of Clique), and given the P/T of TS, I can better understand why we would value the flying on that card, but I can't say the same for Clique in this deck. If Clique + Spell Pierce signify that you won't be facing a lot of creatures in your meta, then the flying really won't be relevant, just the efficiency of the card effects. Even with Clique's hand removal, I think it isn't as powerful as unblocked efficiency of Tarmogoyf which can be played a turn earlier and doesn't require 3 mana.

I think the close battles against creature-based decks that aren't as easily disrupted by TA's arsenal will be weakened by too large a margin to accept those substitutions. Goyf at least has a chance to overpower opposing swarm-strategies by forcing them to chump you into card advantage, while Clique just doesn't. For most metagames, you will still need blockers. I think you aren't gaining much against non-creature based decks, and I think you are losing a lot against decks that do play creatures.




peace,
4eak

[Hanni]

Like I said, it's just what I'm fooling around with. I already said that it's probably a massive butchering. Was just curious if anyone else had tried anything similar.

[keys]

White splash is better than red, if you're dropping green. You get to play Vindicate and StP.

[BreathWeapon]

Like I said, it's just what I'm fooling around with. I already said that it's probably a massive butchering. Was just curious if anyone else had tried anything similar.

Yes, I tried U/b/w "Team America," using Wake Thrasher and Vindicate instead of Tarmogoyf and Sinkhole. The problem tho' is aggro WTF PWNs you out of existence, you really need Tarmo's fat ass to protect yourself from the zerg.

[keys]

Yes, I tried U/b/w "Team America," using Wake Thrasher and Vindicate instead of Tarmogoyf and Sinkhole. The problem tho' is aggro WTF PWNs you out of existence, you really need Tarmo's fat ass to protect yourself from the zerg.

Well to be fair, Thrasher is pretty bad, especially on defense. Clique is the best filler for Goyf. If you play 3 Vindicate/4 StP, aggro is still tough but not impossible to beat. Zoo's creatures become 1/1s without lands, and you have 15+ LD cards. If you keep them off white for Path, Tombstalker just gets there.

Here's the list lorddotm and I were testing:


4 Tombstalker
3 Clique

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force
4 Daze
3 Thoughtseize
4 StP
3 Vindicate
4 Sinkhole
4 Stifle

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Scrub

[BreathWeapon]

I've tried more threat configurations than I care to mention, whether it's Wake Thrasher, Vendillion Clique or Bitter Blossom, the absence of Tarmogoyf is really significant vs aggro. Regardless, 4xVendillion Clique is just a really, really bad choice, you're better off with 4xSerendib Efreet and ?xVendillion Clique, where the 4 Toughness is invaluable vs Zoo and Goblins. Serendib Efreet is a seriously unperplayed beater in aggro-control, especially in the current meta.

[Benie Bederios]

The testing for the tournaments next month started bad... I wen't 2-2 today in the local shop...

It was very small with 10 people and I won against Red Death, lost against Merfolk and Ichorid. Merfolk was a shitty matchup and I won only a game after the tournament in testing, where I landed double Plague. Ichorid was very weird, My opponent mulled to 2! and I went topdecking all my Sinkholes, wastelands and Snuff Outs. If I found a creature I would have won easily. G2 he resolved a Imp, and my crypts couldn't stall him enough. Those two decks where the only bad macthups showed up.

Afterwards I tested against Zoo and Ultimate Walker and ANT and found those matchups quite winnable.

My list was the same is in the OP with the following changes

MD
-1 Snuff Out
+Vendilion Clique

SB
-1 Krosan Grip
-3 Diabolic Edict
+4 Engineered Plague

-Benie

[Hanni]

A few observations from fooling around with the list I posted:

Legendary status with Vendilion Clique isn't so hot. Great creature, but you really don't want to see multiples unless they get hit by removal.

I agree that a t1 Nacatl in g1 makes racing [with a Clique] pretty difficult.

I've been liking Spell Pierce alot. It does quite a bit for the deck, answering alot of stuff Spell Snare doesn't, and alot of those spells can be serious problems. With Stifle/Waste AND Sinkhole, it's been very strong, especially in combination with Daze.

The red splash for Firespout has been crazy good.

I'm wondering if a 4c splash is possible? I'm sure that it makes matchups against opposing decks with mana denial complete hell, but at the same time, Firespout is crazy good. I guess the next thing crazy thing for me to test is Team America with Spell Pierce in place of Thoughtseize and a red splash for Firespout.

U/B/g/r Team America

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [A] Underground Sea
1 [A] Tropical Island
1 [U] Volcanic Island
1 [B] Bayou
1 [R] Badlands
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [FUT] Tombstalker
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [DD2] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Snuff Out
4 [A] Sinkhole

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [A] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [ARE] Duress
SB: 4 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip

Something like that, I suppose. I hate 4c decks because of 4c manabases. 4c with only 16 actual colored sources is even worse, so I'll likely scrap the idea after I fool around with it. Oh well.

[miko]

Nice idea. But: A single red mana source would in my opinion be enough. Because you only want it for playing Firespout which would be gg against aggro as soon as it resolves.

The inclusion of Spell Pierce is pretty interesting, too. What is your opinion about cutting the Clique and playing 4 SPierce instead?

How did you test the deck?

Btw.: You could stay three colored if you use Infest instead of Firespout. Infest is not as strong but it provides CA too.

[kikkofrio]

U/B/g/r Team America

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [A] Underground Sea
1 [A] Tropical Island
1 [U] Volcanic Island
1 [B] Bayou
1 [R] Badlands
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [FUT] Tombstalker
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [DD2] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Snuff Out
3 Fire/Ice / Lightning Bolt



Fixed!

[BreathWeapon]

Any particular reason you don't just SB the R lands?

[Nantuko]

Umn I like the red option,I thnk its a good way to go.
Now its time to test

[Hanni]

The strain on the manabase for Firespout just hasn't been worth it. A single Wasteland in the early game completely shuts the deck off of either BB for Tombstalker/Sinkhole, or blue in general (Underground Sea + Bayou is the typical play).

Firespout is a badass card, especially with 5 flyers, and especially with the ability to cast it with both green and red mana... but ultimately, consistency issues make the deck too unreliable for me. 3c is shaky as it is.

I like the Infest idea. It doesn't deal with Kird Apes, Wild Nacatl's, or 3/3's (pumped by Lords), but it answers most swarm aggro. Snuff Out hits the bigger guys/Lords, which can strengthen Infest. Not the best answer ever, but going 4c is really pushing it, and I don't see any better alternatives. Pernicious Deed is really slow for this deck, and against aggro, something faster is important.

The new rendition:

U/B/g Team America

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [A] Underground Sea
2 [A] Tropical Island
1 [B] Bayou
1 [7E] Island (2)
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [FUT] Tombstalker
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [DD2] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Snuff Out
4 [A] Sinkhole

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [A] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [ARE] Duress
SB: 4 [ON] Infest
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip

[BreathWeapon]

Infest really, really sucks, the entire point of Fire Spout is that it's a sweeper vs Merfolk even with a lord or two on the board AND it kills every last Zoo creature barring Goyf. I think you're better off boarding your R mana sources and playing Fire Spout than you are boarding Infest.

Also, maybe just over boarding for Zoo and Goblins, like 8 Blue/Hydro Blasts does the job? Not sucking in the Aggro-Loam, Burn and TES match ups as well is pretty baller.

Spell Pierce MD blows, the entire point of Thought Seize is that it's worth a damn vs Goblins and clears the path for T2 Sinkhole.

[Benie Bederios]

The strain on the manabase for Firespout just hasn't been worth it. A single Wasteland in the early game completely shuts the deck off of either BB for Tombstalker/Sinkhole, or blue in general (Underground Sea + Bayou is the typical play).

Firespout is a badass card, especially with 5 flyers, and especially with the ability to cast it with both green and red mana... but ultimately, consistency issues make the deck too unreliable for me. 3c is shaky as it is.

I like the Infest idea. It doesn't deal with Kird Apes, Wild Nacatl's, or 3/3's (pumped by Lords), but it answers most swarm aggro. Snuff Out hits the bigger guys/Lords, which can strengthen Infest. Not the best answer ever, but going 4c is really pushing it, and I don't see any better alternatives. Pernicious Deed is really slow for this deck, and against aggro, something faster is important.

The new rendition:

U/B/g Team America

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [A] Underground Sea
2 [A] Tropical Island
1 [B] Bayou
1 [7E] Island (2)
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [FUT] Tombstalker
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [DD2] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Snuff Out
4 [A] Sinkhole

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [A] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [ARE] Duress
SB: 4 [ON] Infest
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip


a) Good luck loosing to Ichorid. Even with GY hate it's a hard matchup... T1 Putrid Imp is GG.

b) Duress in the sideboard. Why? Loosing to combo is as hard as jumping in the air and missing. You might want it against control( in place of Snuff Out,) but there I would want something more gamewinning, like some Dark Confidant or some stupid cards like Winter Orb or Extirpate.

c) Infest is weak... I haven't had to much problems against Zoo with 4 BEB's in the board and. Normally you stall the board with Goyf and shrink there cats and apes and win with Tombstalker. Against Merfolk and Goblins it's slightly worse than Engineered Plague... Sorcery speed makes it silly against Ichorid. If you want something faster then Pernicious Deed, you might want to test out Engineered Explosives.

d) Island MD is not my favorite, but if you go that direction isn't Misty Rainforest >> Verdant Catacombs, so a 4/0 split better than 2/2. It has been a damn long time ago someone played Needle on a fetch or Extirpated one of them.

Benie

[kikkofrio]

I'm looking for a solution against tribal/aggro deck.

This is my side actually:

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [OD] Divert
SB: 1 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [OD] Ghastly Demise
4 aggro open slot

Infest is a not enough. A cc3 sorcery that vs merfolk is a cc4 sorcery.
Plague is a half-Infest. Not enough too.

I'm thinking to play 4 smother...:rolleyes:

[Benie Bederios]

I'm looking for a solution against tribal/aggro deck.

This is my side actually:

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [OD] Divert
SB: 1 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [OD] Ghastly Demise
4 aggro open slot

Infest is a not enough. A cc3 sorcery that vs merfolk is a cc4 sorcery.
Plague is a half-Infest. Not enough too.

I'm thinking to play 4 smother...:rolleyes:

Just two question. What are you going to side out, if you want to bring in 8 removal spells and maybe 3 sweepers?

And with which other tribal/aggro decks( except Merfolk obviously) do you have trouble?

If you got 4 spaces left you might want to play 1 Volcanic Island and 3 Volcanic Fallout. But I wouldn't worry that much about the merfolk matchup, you need to bring in more than 8 cards to win that matchup, and I don't want to bastard my SB for it.

Benie

[keys]

1 Volcanic Island and 3 Volcanic Fallout:really:

[quicksilver]

:really:

He probably meant firespout.

[Patrick]

I'm sure this has come up in the thread, so someone can just PM me the answer, but what does this deck do about Swords to Plowshares? It runs 8-9 creatures, no Top. The only digging you get is Ponder/Brainstorm. If they plow your guy, do you cantrip and pray?

[kikkofrio]

If they have white mana to play sword or pact, you have counter.
If they have sword or pact, you have waste or sinkhole for they white land.
If they have sword or pact and white mana, you have seize.

[Nantuko]

I,m testing this sideboard and i like a lot.

SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [OD] Divert
SB: 4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [B] Volcanic Island
SB: 4 [SHM] Firespout

[Kanabo]

wouldnt Verdant Catacombs be better than Bloodstained mire? and are we sure that 3 green mana sources are enough?

and what about hymms instead of thoughtseizes? or a couple of trygon predators?

[quicksilver]

wouldnt Verdant Catacombs be better than Bloodstained mire? and are we sure that 3 green mana sources are enough?

and what about hymms instead of thoughtseizes? or a couple of trygon predators?

People are playing verdant catacombs over mire. No one has mentioned playing mire since well before the new fetches were even rumoured.

[Kanabo]

ok yea thats what i was thinking but i just wantd to confirm it. and why doesnt this deck run trygon predators?

[quicksilver]

ok yea thats what i was thinking but i just wantd to confirm it. and why doesnt this deck run trygon predators?

He's not very good. Not enough decks use artifact's and enchantments for it to be good. He's a lot of mana and can't even trade with a one drop like wild nacatal or nimble mongoose.

[Kanabo]

ok, and do you think 3 green sources is enough in a deck like this? i also have 3 kgrips in sb and 3 deeds.

[deadlock]

ok, and do you think 12 (3 duals and 9 Fetch) green sources is enough in a deck like this? i also have 3 kgrips in sb and 3 deeds.

Yes, we think it is..

Anyway, while its obvious were the problems of TA lie in the current metagame, i was wondering, if something like this could be more viable:

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [B] Bayou
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [B] Underground Sea
2 [B] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tombstalker
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir

// Spells
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [NE] Daze
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [AL] Force of Will

+ 8 Combination of:
- Thoughtseize
- Snuff Out
- Spell Snare
(having 4 Seize and 4 Snuff may be to costly in terms of life against Zoo)


Board:
4 Spell Pierce
11 X

New possible approaches / goals:
- More answers to creatures.
- Move from a mostly sorcery based version to an instant based version, which is one of the selling points of Tempo ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh imo).

Also Spell Pierce may be a very good card for Tempo Decks, mostly against Chalice and Trinisphere, but they counter Relic, Vial and Top too ..

[Kanabo]

How does this look?

Team America

Mana:
4 wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Polluted delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs

Creatures:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker

Spells:
4 Stifle
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Snuff Out
4 Sinkhole
4 Thoughtsieze

Sideboard:
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Pithing needle
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip

[NesretepNoj]

I haven't tested them personally, but they seem anti-synergetic with both Tarmogoyf and especially Tombstalker. If your meta consist of many graveyard dependent decks, I would probably run 4 Tormod's Crypt, as Dan suggest in the primer. You could maybe experiment with Yixlid Jailer, which has the added bonus of being an additional beater.

How does this look?
Sideboard:
3 Relic of Progenitus

[Kanabo]

the relics are for ichorid, and jailer would be too slow to prevent ichorid from winning. ichorid usually only takes 1-3 turns to win, and jailer takes 2 but using a daze it would take 3...too slow in my opinion.

[from Cairo]

the relics are for ichorid, and jailer would be too slow to prevent ichorid from winning. ichorid usually only takes 1-3 turns to win, and jailer takes 2 but using a daze it would take 3...too slow in my opinion.

Yixlid Jailer :1: :b:

Relic of Progenitis :1: + :1: to activate...

If mana cost of 2 is such an issue isn't Tormod's Crypt superior (vs Ichorid) to both anyway, costing :0: and not RFGing your Graveyard, so Goyf and Tombstalker are relevant?

[Kanabo]

Yixlid Jailer :1: :b:

Relic of Progenitis :1: + :1: to activate...

If mana cost of 2 is such an issue isn't Tormod's Crypt superior (vs Ichorid) to both anyway, costing :0: and not RFGing your Graveyard, so Goyf and Tombstalker are relevant?

but by taking out their whole graveyard, you might make your goyfs even smaller then they would be when you cast a tombstalker. and relic only costs 1 if you only want to remove one relevant card in their graveyard such as a dredger or deep analasys.

[ScatmanX]

but by taking out their whole graveyard, you might make your goyfs even smaller then they would be when you cast a tombstalker. and relic only costs 1 if you only want to remove one relevant card in their graveyard such as a dredger or deep analasys.

You can't choose the card Relic remove if you target your opponent, so if he is a good player, that won't happen.

I think Planar Void is great. you can use turn2, after some cards are in both graves, so Goyfs won't be hurt much.

[Kanabo]

why would you want to use it turn 2? ichorid could have already won by that time, and it kills the plan to play tombstalker.

[Kanabo]

sorry for the double post, but which card is better for this deck? relic of progenitus or tormod's crypt?

[chokin]

Tormod's Crypt is free and doesn't make Goyf suck or Tombstalker cost more. The only significant difference against Ichorid is if they happen to run Chalice for zero, then Relic is better as they'll never have 2 mana for Chalice at one. Most just use Needle, in which case, it's up in the air. The only significant benefit of Relic is that if they don't have a creature discard outlet, then they can't slowroll.

[Kanabo]

ok well I switched my relics to crypts and thing that they really ARE better, but we'll see.

also, could the dark depths combo possibly find its way into this deck? it has the right colors, and it is very powerful. i also dont think it would hurt the deck too much...

[sauce]

thoughts on my list?

4 force of will
4 daze
4 stifle
4 brainstorm
4 ponder

4 tarmogoyf
4 tombstalker
2 trygon predator

4 sinkhole
4 snuff out
2 putrefy -- good vs staxx/aether vial/and obv dudes

4 wasteland
4 misty rainforest
4 verdant catacombs
4 underground sea
2 tropical island
2 bayou

the only things i kinda regret is not having 2-4 spell snares...
our meta has goblins, staxx, ant, ichorid, angel stompy, canadian thresh, coatl bant cbtop and some other random crap

[Kanabo]

why no deltas? and why the trygon predator? yes i think its a great card, but this deck should be fast enough to dominate before they have 3+ artifacts/enchantments.

[miko]

why no deltas? and why the trygon predator? yes i think its a great card, but this deck should be fast enough to dominate before they have 3+ artifacts/enchantments.

I would cut Predator, too. Instead of 2 Predators i would try out something similar to Canadian Thresh; 1 Rushing River and 1 Wipe Away for example. If you want to have more beaters who are not just vanilla creatures you could go for vendillion clique. Its advantage is flash which is very important to this deck due to bluffing stifle for example.

So i would go for:

4 force of will
4 daze
4 stifle
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 spell snare

4 tarmogoyf
4 tombstalker
2 vendilion clique / 1 wipe away 1 rushing river

4 sinkhole
4 snuff out


4 wasteland
2 polluted delta
4 verdant catacombs
4 underground sea
3 tropical island
1 bayou

[sauce]

I would cut Predator, too. Instead of 2 Predators i would try out something similar to Canadian Thresh; 1 Rushing River and 1 Wipe Away for example. If you want to have more beaters who are not just vanilla creatures you could go for vendillion clique. Its advantage is flash which is very important to this deck due to bluffing stifle for example.

So i would go for:

4 force of will
4 daze
4 stifle
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 spell snare

4 tarmogoyf
4 tombstalker
2 vendilion clique / 1 wipe away 1 rushing river

4 sinkhole
4 snuff out


4 wasteland
2 polluted delta
4 verdant catacombs
4 underground sea
3 tropical island
1 bayou

why cut 2 lands?...
the reason im playing trygons is the amount of staxx/aether vial decks in our metagame.
i like v.clique but i would have to go to 3 tropical and 1 bayou to make the UU cost more reasonable obv.
i do like 4 spell snare though, is 18 lands really enough in this deck?

[miko]

I think 18 lands are enough. This deck can be compared to Canadian Thresh. CT runs 18 lands and we definitely do not need more mana the so-called deck. I tend to go up to 19 adding a basic island for like 1 snare, but would not cut more snares.

Furthermore i would not play the classic TA list. I think a hybrid would be stronger. It would be interesting to give TA a potential to win midrange games. This could be done by adjusting the sb by adding red for firespout and playing 2 cliques.

[kabal]

I think 18 lands are enough. This deck can be compared to Canadian Thresh. CT runs 18 lands and we definitely do not need more mana the so-called deck.

That just isn't true. CT can operate on 1 land, where TA needs at least 2 to cast any of its treats. Not to mention, the deck has 8 spells that require double black.

[sauce]

im considering going down to 19 lands but i dont think 18 is going to be good enough..

potentially 7 fetches with the mana base like this
4 underground sea
2 tropical island
2 bayou
4 wasteland
4 misty rainforest
3 verdant catacombs or polluted delta, doesnt matter at all

[Kanabo]

i dont believe you will need 4 green sources, and 8-9 fetches would be better.

@everyone, why do people use diabolic edict instead of chainers edict, cruel edict, or imperial edict? what are the differences?

[keys]

8 duals
-------
4 Sea
3 Trop
1 Bayou (really nice that new fetches can get this now)

+7 fetches (Polluted Delta/Verdant Catacombs/Misty Rainforest)

+4 Wasteland
-------
19 total

That always seemed like the correct manabase to me. I tried really hard to include basics but it's just not worth it. T1 Blood Moon with no force is going to be GG, not much you can do about it...

As mentioned above, the deck is more mana intensive than Tempo Thresh. But I rarely had mana screw with this configuration.

[sauce]

i dont believe you will need 4 green sources, and 8-9 fetches would be better.

@everyone, why do people use diabolic edict instead of chainers edict, cruel edict, or imperial edict? what are the differences?

because its an instant.
@keys agree, i have to change it to 3 trops.

[kikkofrio]

If you want to play as canadian (but I don't think this is the right way to play this deck), cut sinkhole and other sorcery spell.
In addition to that, so many fetch would be necessary to play stalker fast.

But, anyway, I would play this list:

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [R] Tropical Island
1 [R] Bayou
4 [R] Underground Sea
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [MM] Snuff Out
4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
1 [PS] Rushing River
1 [TSP] Wipe Away
4 [DIS] Spell Snare

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [OD] Divert
SB: 3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [ON] Smother
SB: 1 [RAV] Darkblast

[Jolly_roger]

Verdant catacombs semms strictly better than mire since it can get tropical in the list above.

[Kanabo]

What is the best sideboard that i can take to ANY event?

[sauce]

What is the best sideboard that i can take to ANY event?

15 more force of wills probably.

[Kanabo]

...

seriously

[Jon Stewart]

I can't believe that so many of you guys have cut Thoughtseize from your lists. Thoughtseize is one of the best disruption cards ever printed.

It tells you your opponents entire gameplan and robs them of there very best card for just one mana. A turn one thoughtseize means that you will usually know for the most part what your opponent will be casting each turn and how they will respond to your spells often before they do. Why would you ever cut it?

[Kanabo]

I agree, if you go turn 1 ug sea + thoughtseize, you get there best card ad get to see how they will be playing. not only that, but its only 2 life. and it lets you know what you need to draw (or cantrip into) to better your position.

Guys, what would be the best sb to go to any form of tourney?

my sb currently is: 3 deed, 3 kgrip, 3 tormods, 3 beb, and 3 needles

[sauce]

I can't believe that so many of you guys have cut Thoughtseize from your lists. Thoughtseize is one of the best disruption cards ever printed.

It tells you your opponents entire gameplan and robs them of there very best card for just one mana. A turn one thoughtseize means that you will usually know for the most part what your opponent will be casting each turn and how they will respond to your spells often before they do. Why would you ever cut it?

what do you cut for thoughtseizes? spell snare??
main reason i dont play is a hand that has both thoughtseize and stifle, i want to keep stifle up jic cuz that is so back breaking.
if i thoughtseize and they have no relevant plays but they have 1 fetch and i was on the play w/ stifle, i just feel like i lost a great chance to put my opp in armageddon mode.

if you go thoughtseize t2, it loses a lot of value.

[Jon Stewart]

That's a whole lot of ifs that you have in your example. And what happens if your opponent instead plays a dual land and a Wild Nacatl or Putrid Imp instead. You're going to be kicking yourself that you didn't cast anything your first turn rather than Thoughtseize away their best card and find out what cards they actually have in their hands rather than just guessing.

If you just sitting around with untapped mana hoping your opponent drops and uses a fetchlands, the only tempo you are taking is your own.

[sauce]

And what happens if your opponent instead plays a dual land and a Wild Nacatl or Putrid Imp instead. You're going to be kicking yourself
that you didn't cast anything your first turn rather than Thoughtseize away their best card and find out what cards they actually have in their hands rather than just guessing.

you run daze for that play and snuff out if you are worried bout little guys turning at you.
if you get a heavy sinkhole/wasteland/stifle hand, you basically turn all of zoo into 1/1 and 1/2 guys... and they never get to cast spells that matter except for maybe lavamancer which u just snuff out so they have no reach.

spell snare > thoughtseize for my play style because i get to counter relevant spells with it if i don't have the LD going and then resolve my own fatty if I did get to stifle/wasteland/sinkhole them early and ride it to victory.
i also do not run extirpate in the sideboard, do you?

[Jon Stewart]

Well yeah if you have a hand packed with LD of course you should focus on that venue. But thoughtseize doesn't interfere with going the LD route. It actually enables it by letting you know what lands your opponent has and what colors and mana they need for their spells. And no I don't play Extripate. I think it's a crappy card actually.

[sauce]

Well yeah if you have a hand packed with LD of course you should focus on that venue. But thoughtseize doesn't interfere with going the LD route. It actually enables it by letting you know what lands your opponent has and what colors and mana they need for their spells. And no I don't play Extripate. I think it's a crappy card actually.

list your mb/sb here

[Jon Stewart]

My list is right here... http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15258

Not the same deck but the same core principles apply.

And my sideboard varies btwn some combination of Krosan Grip, BEB, Pithing Needle, Deed, Snuff Out, Duress, Leyline or something else based on what Im expecting, but never included Extripate.

[sauce]

My list is right here... http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15258

Not the same deck but the same core principles apply.

And my sideboard varies btwn some combination of Krosan Grip, BEB, Pithing Needle, Deed, Snuff Out, Duress, Leyline or something else based on what Im expecting, but never included Extripate.

bah, thats not team america thats eva green splashing stifle to cast get dreadnought into play as well as vision charms..

[Jon Stewart]

Never said it was anything but. Regardless, it attacks the manabase with the same identical cards as this deck. Stifle and Thoughtseize coexist As they did/do in lots of TA lists that Ive played and played against and both are absolutely worth playing both here and there imho.