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the_ob3lisk
05-18-2011, 11:55 PM
Hey guys, I have been play testing a list very similar to Edgar's from the last SCG open. I was wondering what you guys consider prime opening hands for this archetype. It seems Hymn is crucial turn two.

Jeff
05-19-2011, 11:02 AM
@Goddik: I beat Landstill last night by breaking the Standstill as soon as possible. The worst thing you can do against that deck, I think, is wait out the Standstill, because eventually if you wait long enough they'll get a better control hand than you, and they CAN eventually just drop Factories and kill you, in which case you'll have to break it anyway, and you'll just have let them sculpt the perfect hand first.

I was running 2 Spell Snare last night, not sure if thats the right call or not, but it does counter Standstill, which is relevant if they don't have a Misstep back.

re: Sower vs. Threads: I can see Sower working, but every 4 drop we cram into the deck makes the manabase that much trickier. Its hard to spend all yoru wastelands keeping your opponent at 1 or 2 lands when your hand is all Sowers and Jaces. Not that 3 is much better than threads, but at some point we have to stop adding big mana spells, or we have to start adding lands. I'm not sure how that really fits.

re: Beating landstill: If it looks like Landstill is going to be really popular in Providence, I'm thinking 2 Thrun in the 75 might not be a bad idea. The only answer they have to him is double blocking with Factory. Seems pretty good.

J

GGoober
05-19-2011, 11:08 AM
@Goddik: I beat Landstill last night by breaking the Standstill as soon as possible. The worst thing you can do against that deck, I think, is wait out the Standstill, because eventually if you wait long enough they'll get a better control hand than you, and they CAN eventually just drop Factories and kill you, in which case you'll have to break it anyway, and you'll just have let them sculpt the perfect hand first.

I was running 2 Spell Snare last night, not sure if thats the right call or not, but it does counter Standstill, which is relevant if they don't have a Misstep back.

re: Sower vs. Threads: I can see Sower working, but every 4 drop we cram into the deck makes the manabase that much trickier. Its hard to spend all yoru wastelands keeping your opponent at 1 or 2 lands when your hand is all Sowers and Jaces. Not that 3 is much better than threads, but at some point we have to stop adding big mana spells, or we have to start adding lands. I'm not sure how that really fits.

re: Beating landstill: If it looks like Landstill is going to be really popular in Providence, I'm thinking 2 Thrun in the 75 might not be a bad idea. The only answer they have to him is double blocking with Factory. Seems pretty good.

J

Still doesn't kill Thrun since he regenerates :P The only out is Factory Recursion with Crucible or Elspeth chumping, or Wrathing when Thrun player is tapped out. Thrun is pretty hard to deal with for Landstill players, and GerryT's list has much less outs against Thrun than the regular landstill lists.

Jeff
05-19-2011, 11:46 AM
Still doesn't kill Thrun since he regenerates :P

This is what I get for advocating cards without actually LOOKING at them. Yes, even that doesn't kill him. So . . yea. Thrun.

2 of the 4 decks I played last night were Standstill decks, and let me tell you, all I really wanted all night was big threats, and all I had were these stupid little 3/1 fliers. I"m going back to Tombstalkers, thats for dang sure, Cliques be damned :)

GGoober
05-19-2011, 11:55 AM
This is what I get for advocating cards without actually LOOKING at them. Yes, even that doesn't kill him. So . . yea. Thrun.

2 of the 4 decks I played last night were Standstill decks, and let me tell you, all I really wanted all night was big threats, and all I had were these stupid little 3/1 fliers. I"m going back to Tombstalkers, thats for dang sure, Cliques be damned :)

Clique is actually really really good against Standstill. Flashing a Clique in response to a Standstill when a control player taps out (Landstill doesn't play daze) is backbreaking. If they don't have a FoW, they just lost (you get +3 cards or sneak a few damage if they feel like they need to draw under standstill for some turns before cracking it).

If anything, I would be playing more Cliques if Standstill become dominant. As a landstill player, I'll chime in on a couple of cards that will affect Landstill players the most: 1cmc discard e.g. Duress/Thoughtseize will make a powerful 7 card hand in control much less powerful. Since control players usually play decks that have varied outs to many situations, a duress can take out the most relevant spell while leaving a hand of less relevant spell. This really hurts the control player. However, thanks to MMS, control players have some form to battle that these days. And Clique essentially does what Duress does for most parts, except it screws up Standstill and the inbuilt Flash is very relevant.

Although it kinda dies to Shackles :P

Jeff
05-19-2011, 12:02 PM
I'll buy all of that, but this deck rarely runs more than 2 cliques, and I can't cast it until after you can already resolve Standstill, and then it's just crappy in my hand. I wanted something on the board that they'd have to work to stick Shackles on. Terravore probably would've done the same thing.

More to the point though, I did actually beat both standstill decks, and I really wanted the stalkers more for other matchups and felt the clique wasn't good enough against anything to justify not having my big fatty anymore.

Although Chapin had an interesting suggestion in his article a few days ago where he was advocating 4 Jaces in TA. I'd go for it if Jace was any good against Merfolk at all, but I can never protect him against them, and with so many merfolk decks running around right now, having a bunch of bad cards against them seems . . . bad.

Valarne
05-19-2011, 12:28 PM
re: Sower vs. Threads: I can see Sower working, but every 4 drop we cram into the deck makes the manabase that much trickier. Its hard to spend all yoru wastelands keeping your opponent at 1 or 2 lands when your hand is all Sowers and Jaces. Not that 3 is much better than threads, but at some point we have to stop adding big mana spells, or we have to start adding lands. I'm not sure how that really fits.



J

When you board into a semi-real control deck with game-changing four-drops, you shouldn't be trying to waste their manabase to shreds. And you should probably be boarding out Dazes for the most part by the way (depending on their curve etc). The game becomes all about reaching 4 mana with a stable board, and from there it should be smooth sailing.

In this deck, Loam is like adding lands, but better. Loam is quite the misunderstood card...I wouldn't play less than 2 between main and side

colo
05-21-2011, 12:03 PM
How would you construct the MB and SB with the Natural Order/Show and Tell matchup in mind these days? Would you play Phyrexian Metamorph in order to have outs if Progenitus and/or Emrakul rear their fugly heads? Are there any other cards that make this matchup better? And last but not least... any tips on solving the Burn problem? ;)

Goddik
05-21-2011, 12:54 PM
The burn problem is probably best solved by dodging, having byes or hoping he mulls like crazy. In game your best hope is to be very agressive and try to avoid dying to price of progress.

With regards to natural order it is naturally weak to your main mana denial, hymn counter plan. As long as you keep that plan up you should be fine. The big challenge is actually not the combo kill, but the fact that these decks are perfectly capable of playing normal magic, i.e. you have to do a bit of balancing depending on how all in they are on the combo with regards to how much "midrange" stuff you want to board in.

Koby
05-21-2011, 01:28 PM
How would you construct the MB and SB with the Natural Order/Show and Tell matchup in mind these days? Would you play Phyrexian Metamorph in order to have outs if Progenitus and/or Emrakul rear their fugly heads? Are there any other cards that make this matchup better? And last but not least... any tips on solving the Burn problem? ;)

Spell Pierce is good against NO/Show decks, but watch out for Red blasts, or their own Pierces.

Against burn... Hydroblast maybe a decent answer, but relatively weak against the metagame. Other forms of Lifegain could help - perhaps Sun Droplet as a multipurpose answer to aggro.

TheShaun
05-21-2011, 02:55 PM
I actually wouldn't be surprised at all to see burn doing well at the GP. It's very cheap and can steal wins against any deck. Chill is really good but very narrow. Misstep and spell snare are great, assuming you are hard casting misstep. Discard is great too as it typically saves you at least 6 damage. But you need to kill them quick enough so they don't just draw enough damage to win afterwards.

I find that the best way to battle show and tell or natural order are to never let them resolve. Between discard and counters it isn't incredibly hard, but a progenitus in play is pretty much unbeatable. Jace can answer Emrakul if you get him in fast, which usually involves slowing them down for at least 4 turns. The midrange creatures in those decks see the bigger concern IMO.

conboy31
05-22-2011, 10:36 PM
Wow, in game 3 of the SCG finals Samuel Swisher made one of the worst plays of magic I have ever seen. I felt embarrassed for him. Clearly, he should be congratulated for making 2nd place and making a bunch of money. However, playing a 4/5 goyf when your opponent has 4 islands and a shackles online and all of your 6 lands can't untap because he has back to basics out.

Jeff
05-22-2011, 10:54 PM
Yea that was pretty awkward. Postboard against that deck he probably has 5 three drop outs to the back to basics (2 Grips and 3 Deeds), and he taps his mana to ensure that he won't be able to kill it, and by the way gives his an opponent a beatstick to kill him with. Rough.

In other news, I went to a local Legacy event (pretty small) and took it down (4 rounds, cut to top 4, so 6 total rounds of magic). I lost to Dredge 1-2, but I beat Burn, Charbelcher, GWb aggro (G/W aggro + Bob, NOT junk because there was no hand disruption), Metalworker, and 4 color Landstill. I ran the following.

//Creatures
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Tombstalker

//Planeswalkers
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Counters
4x Force of Will
3x Mental Misstep
2x Daze
2x Spell Snare

//Draw/Discard
4x Brainstorm
2x Ponder
4x Hymn to Tourach

//Removal
2x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Smother
1x Go for the Throat
1x Threads of Disloyalty

//Land
4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Polluted Delta
4x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
2x Tropical Island

//Sideboard
2x Pernicious Deed
2x Null Rod
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Thrun, the Last Troll
2x Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2x Extirpate
1x Consuming Vapors
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Ghastly Demise


Several of these cards were more to see them in play than a firm belief that this is the best deck, as I'm just trying to see a lot of different configurations before Providence.

- The Pulses were great all day. Pulse is one of very few playable cards that can straight up kill jace without attacking, which is looking more and more relevant these days.
- I only drew the Threads of Disloyalty twice, and both times it sucked (but it was game 1s in matchups where it did nothing). I took a single goblin token from an empty the warrens for 12 tokens, and chumped, buying myself a turn, and I took a Putrid Imp once my opponent had already resolved it and was able to discard a Grave-Troll to it. I didn't draw it in any of the matchups it might've been good in, but I'm not convinced it makes the cut
- Thrun was great vs Landstill, and would be good vs the deck that won today's open, but still might not be good enough to take a spot since he does nothing against the rest of the field
- Jace is really, really, really good. I knowhe's not great vs Merfolk, but against a lot of the rest of the field he is quite good. He even won me a game against Charbelcher once I stopped him from going off super early, Jace took over the match.
- I'm pretty much on the two Tombstalker bandwagon at this point. I've played with Cliques, they just don't cut it. I won several games off of swinging with Stalker where Clique just wouldn't have done it, and I'm gonna take my chances with Bob.
- Spell Snare was great. I know it can get misstepped, but it counters so much of the field right now that I really, really, really like having it. Especially since it counters Standstill.

So yea, thats a little bit of random info, take what you will from it.

AggroSteve
05-23-2011, 03:33 AM
i am quite new to this deck, on of my thought was, why not play 4 missteps and spell snares in place of daze, did anyone try this allready?, if yes what are your conclusions?

sclabman
05-23-2011, 04:08 AM
Playing Daze, even as a two-of, is often beneficial. This is due to opponents playing around it even when you don't have it in your hand.

TheShaun
05-23-2011, 08:36 AM
I've made my counter package 4 FoW, 4 Misstep, 3 Spell Snare. I keep debating if that should be 4/3/4 instead, since Spell Snare realistically counters more amazing cards than Misstep does, but whenever I start thinking that way somebody resolves a Lackey or Aether Vial on me. Maybe 4/4/4, but I don't know what else I could cut for a 12th.

Daze can be very beneficial, but it typically is really bad on the draw. I tend to side it out pretty much every game I'm on the draw except very specific circumstances, and eventually decided that I didn't want a card that I side out more often than keep in. But I may change my mind by Saturday.

Creature selection seems to me like it is the biggest point of contention for this deck. Options we've seen discussed:

Goyf
Tombstalker
Terravore
Clique
Sower
Confidant

All have very good arguments for their inclusion, but Goyf is the only one that seems universally accepted. Play 4.

Tombstalker is the most aggressive remaining, but tends to shrink your Goyf, and is crippling when bounced. Also does not play well with Confidant. He is an amazing threat when landed on turn 3/4, and will win the game if you have some counters for their removal. Definitely the top choice if you're trying to kill them as fast as possible.

Terravore is going to be the biggest creature on the table unless they have Emrakul, and sometimes even that isn't true (I had mine to 18/18 against Bant). Double green is a pain in the ass, and you typically don't want him out early which makes the deck less aggressive. Trample is amazing though, as I can't count the times that I have a Goyf or two just getting constantly chumped by Goblins or some other little guy, when Terravore laughs in the face of that. Trample is one of the biggest arguments that this card has for a maindeck slot.

Clique provides a look at your opponent's hand and potentially removes a serious problem card from it. Against redundant decks like Merfolk it won't matter, since most of their cards do the same thing anyways. But against combo or control decks it can be huge. Flash and flying are great as well, as they severely limit the ways your opponent can answer the threat. Downsides are that it's a 3/1, which isn't a great clock and it dies to things like Lavamancer and Bolt.

Sower I do not really think deserves a maindeck slot, though it can turn the tide when your opponent is starting to pull ahead. It really only shines when your opponent is playing something similar to you, or an Emrakul. In both of those cases, they are likely to have a way to kill the Sower and make you have wasted a card. I don't advocate these maindeck.

Dark Confidant seems to be the most contested creature for the deck. His benefits are obvious, drawing 2 cards a turn is often game winning against anything but the most aggressive decks out there. He will definitely lose you some life, more so if playing Tombstalker. It doesn't happen often, but sometimes you will just lose a game due to his ability. More often though you will win a game due to his ability. He isn't a very aggressive threat, but pretty much any deck sees him as a must answer card, which allows your other creatures to be treated with less respect. I've definitely had opponents use creature kill on Confidant when I have a 7/7 Terravore right next to him. I feel like you need to decide which way you're taking your deck to choose whether or not to include Confidant. If you want to win early, I wouldn't bother with this guy as he isn't very aggressive and you're not going to get as much card advantage out of him. But if you're shooting for the long game, he probably makes more sense than Tombstalker in the deck.

Well that's just my opinion on all the currently potential creatures that get tossed around in here. Just wait until somebody throws Morphling in there though, that will be a wonderful day.

Schembo
05-23-2011, 01:24 PM
I won yesterday 24 player tourney with this list

Terho Seppänen - TA

//MAIN
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
1 Vendilion Clique

2 Snuff Out
2 Go for the Throat
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Brainstrom
3 Ponnder
1 Life from the Loam

//SIDE
3 Krosan Grip
3 Spell Pierce
2 Extirpate
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Darkblast
1 Perish
1 Maelstrom Pulse

I beat spiral tide, merfolk and u/r painter in first swiss rounds. Each game finished 2-0 and i take 2 ID to top8. In top8 i beat bant, same u/r painter as in round3 in swiss and g/w fauna in final game.

Meta breakdown:
4 Dredge
3 Zoo
2 Team America
2 UR Painter
1 GW Fauna
1 UR Dreadnought
1 Eva Green
1 Bant Aggro
1 Sneak Show
1 Hightide
1 Aggro Loam
1 Demigod Stompy
1 Reanimator
1 Merfolk
1 Goblins
1 Burn
1 Death and Taxes

Zamussels
05-24-2011, 01:06 AM
About Jace for GP providence:

It seems like almost everyone is on the Jace bandwagon for this deck now. I still like the 4 Goyf / 4 Stalker / 1 Clique configuration though. What is Jace good against though? He's good against Landstill but I don't see many people running that deck in a long tournament and could be easily avoided by not being in he draw bracket. He's seems bad against Merfolk, Goblins, fast combo decks.

People seem to be mostly cutting Stifle and Clique for Jace. I think Stifle is awesome in the bad matchups, and almost never dead game 1. It can easily be sideboarded it out for more specific cards and then your opponent will play around it. A huge weakness of this deck is the mana base, and Stifle can hit Wastelands. A lot of people that I've played against me try to hit the green lands to keep me off Tarmogoyf mana so they won't waste the early Seas and then it's easy to Stifle the Waste if necessary. It'll feel weird for me playing without Stifle, they've always been great.

I admit that I haven't tested Jace much and don't play Standard so I haven't been exposed to him as much as most players. Can anyone sell me on playing Jace at the GP, or I should stay on my 'old' list? It was posted a few posts back but here it is again. I'm thinking of cutting the Spellbombs in the SB and try to fit in Revokers and maybe a second Pulse for that Edict.

Creatures -9
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Vendilion Clique
4x Tombstalker

Spells -28
4x Stifle
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Mental Misstep
2x Daze
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Go for the Throat
4x Force of Will

Artifacts -2
2x Engineered Explosives

Lands -21
4x Underground Sea
1x Tropical Island
2x Bayou
2x Polluted Delta
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland

Sideboard -15
3x Pernicious Deed
2x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Consuming Vapors
1x Diabolic Edict
2x Darkblast
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2x Duress
1x Perish

wcm8
05-24-2011, 01:11 AM
I would suggest cutting something in the main for a mid-late game trump card -- either Sylvan Library or Life from the Loam. You want something that can give you the edge if you get into topdeck mode.

Zamussels
05-24-2011, 01:44 AM
I would suggest cutting something in the main for a mid-late game trump card -- either Sylvan Library or Life from the Loam. You want something that can give you the edge if you get into topdeck mode.

Thanks for the advice. I don't know if Sylvan Library is so good in topdeck mode as it does nothing the turn it comes into play and I don't have that much life when in topdeck mode usually. I mostly seem to want to topdeck Ponder/Brainstorm into threats. I ran one Library before and was rarely happy seeing it so I cut it.

Loam seems interesting and I have considered it before. I never played it though so I'm not sure what impact it would really have. Is bringing back a Wasteland and 2 Fetchlands that gamebreaking? Only seems truly broken with Brainstorm, and if I'm in topdeck mode I've probably used it already or am ahead. I don't see other cuts than a Ponder or a Stifle for it and that would hurt the early game and imo Ponder is still good late game.

For what it's worth I don't really go to topdeck mode often with this deck. If I did I'd rather have Jace than Library or Loam too I guess... I will never use a Ponder early for no reason and will do everything in my power to keep Brainstorm open for when I can maximise its power. I've spent quite a few games sculpting a hand like Brainstorm / Misstep / Stifle while my opponent frantically tries to deal with my turn 3 Goyf or Stalker.

On another topic, what do you think about devoting sideboard slots to control (xStill, Counterbalance)? Forget about it and focus on aggro, combo and midrange decks? I already have many cards I am very happy with that I can bring in for multiple matchups, and only Llawan is there solely for Merfolk, which I expect to play against a lot and have a difficut time with. So to keep the best possible matchups across the board, should we attempt to beat control by using cards like Maelstrom Pulse and Phyrexian Revoker that can kill a Jace and still come in handy in other matchups? Bring in more discard like Duress that is good against combo and control? Use specific cards like Thrun or Bitterblossom that can single-handedly win you the game if drawn at the right time against the right deck but will be pretty narrow otherwise? I really wish I had 20 slots...

Augustas
05-24-2011, 01:47 AM
a little bit offtopic, but with all this recent scg success, how TA is still not a deck to beat?

Goddik
05-24-2011, 03:33 AM
Against counterbalance deed should be enough out of the board, against landstill, i dunno what to do. If you can keep their standstills from resolving then library or loam should break them.

wcm8
05-24-2011, 09:28 AM
Goddick, I liked your list a lot from a couple pages back. Could you possibly provide a brief sideboarding guide? Especially regarding what you would do vs. a deck like Merfolk -- would you recommend any changes? I've been testing loam over sylvan and it has proven to be very strong.

TheShaun
05-24-2011, 10:28 AM
Yeah I'm not sure either what is best to bring in for a super heavy control deck like landstill or MUC. Nothing in my current board looks strong, though I think resolving a Confidant has a good chance of being GG.

Goddik
05-24-2011, 05:32 PM
Creatures
4xTarmogoyf
4xTombstalker

Counters
4xForce
4xMisstep
3xDaze

Disruption
4xStifle
4xHymn To Tourach

Draw
4xPonder
4xBrainstorm
1xLoam

Removal
2xGo for the Throat
2xSnuff Out

Lands
4xUnderground Sea
2xTropical Island
1xBayou
9xFetch
4xWasteland

Sideboard
2xGhastly Demise
1xGo For the Throat
1xPulse
2xJace
2xSower
1xLife from the Loam
2xPernicious Deeds.
2xSpell Pierce
2xNihil Spellbomb

Sideboarding:

The general idea is to board into a super board control deck in all of the aggro/midrange matchups where you expect to play atrition postboard

Merfolk:
-4Force
-4Misstep
-4Stifle
+Everything but spell pierce and spellbomb

I am not quite sure what the last card to bring in or keep in is, probably just a force or a misstep, the list changed by an extra misstep the day before the tournament. They bring in submerges so the postboard plan is to try to avoid committing creatures to the board untill you have hymned them or can afford the tempo loss. Jace is god-awefull preboard but actually becomes plausible in the postboard plan as you have alot more removal to sweep the way for him. The plan relies on the fact that most merfolk lists are without standstill nowadays. Without standstill you can win handily postboard, if they do have standstill it is still uphill and i would probably keep force/ board in spell pierce.

The sideboarding for aggro and midrange matchups is nearly the same though what you board out changes a bit, spell pierce is quite good against decks playing jace and zenith for example. (i.e. -4 force. -4 Stifle -3 creatures or daze depending on how low their curve is, +all 11 non spell pierce, non spellbomb cards). The plan is to avoid playing creatures untill you have hymned them or can afford to have it plowed/misstepped, Sower is fine here as it comes late enough that you can generally pave the way for it by baiting or sandbagging a misstep.

The plan is really good but relies on you to have those 11 spots in the board, i.e. you don't have rocom for llawans and such. This is generally fine as you mow down most combo/unfair decks like they were virtual byes. Landstill is definately a problem though and i haven't tested the matchup so i am uncertain how to play/board it.

Goddik
05-24-2011, 05:50 PM
Possible changes:
Most of the maindeck is a bit of a sacred cow given that you chose to play old-school without confidant. If you play with confidant it is quite a different deck (and one in which i would prefer to run visions as my engine).

Stifle is a bit underwhelming, one idea could be to play maindeck spell pierce as all
the midrange decks start playing zeniths which make them usefull in non-spell matchups. It also provides an answer to Jace, Standstill and hymn which are all quite the problem for the deck.

Another option could be to run spell snare, they are just a bit underwhelming in alot of matchups as the key cards have shifted from 2 cc to 3 and 4cc. It is very usefull against counterbalance, thopter foundry and standstill though.

I would thus consider testing +2-3 spell pierce main and then making room for a 5th removal or a 2nd loam/1st jace

Loam has been insane for me, running 2 main is certainly not out of the question and it is brutal against BUG landstill, though not quite as much against the new GerryT monstrosity.

The general sideboard is awesome and you shouldn't fiddle too much with the numbers in the role assignment though individual cards could change, moving pierces main would make room for more control hate for example. Sowers, Deeds and Jaces were very awesome in their particular 2 offs, but were only possible due to the 6 spot removals which keep the ground clear long enough for you to develop. This removal suite could change though, running 2 off pulse could for example give more outs to jace.

I hope this answers your questions;) Otherwise just ask and i will provide more. The biggest part of the deck is to see it as a full 75 card deck. Against combo and control you play the tempo deck of their nightmares which is Team America's traditional strength, against aggro and midrange you board into a "landstill-lite" which they have a hard time outgassing in the long game, particularly if they don't expect it and play around stifle and daze.

I literally felt like many of my matchups were unloosable and my 2 losses came to dredge and the eventual winner with landstill.

Scordata
05-24-2011, 05:53 PM
Something I've been wrestling with lately is the inclusion of stifle. It seems to have lost its appeal and strengths in the last year or so. Decks are now running more lands, so the possibility of manascrew is less; it now feels like this card helps us win our already good matches, but does nothing against our bad ones. I've been running lists similar to the ones posted above, but with either Thoughtseize or Spell Snare in the place of Stifle. I think Thoughtseize might have a slight edge, but Snare acts as insurance if you lose the die roll. Also, Snare is never dead late game against an Goyf/Hymn/etc on the stack, whereas Stifle loses its power after turn 3-4.

So far, my Countersuite looks like this:
4 Fow
4 MM
4 Spell Snare
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce

YMMV, but due to the low threat density, I'm not comfortable running a lower amount of counters. Honestly, it is very difficult for most decks to resolve any backbreaking spells, in almost any stage of the game. The only spell worth tapping out for is a turn 2 Hymn, as long as you can bluff a daze or misstep.

As far as disruption goes, GftT is absolutely terrible. We'd be running smother back in the day if that was what this deck wanted. I stick by 3 Snuff Outs and 1 Darkblast, with extra spot removal in the board. Ghastly Demise/smother/GffT are probably the second best choices, listed in order. At least Smother hits Mishras Factory, and only 2-3 creatures realistically exist in Legacy that smother misses.

Scordata
05-24-2011, 05:57 PM
Wow, Goddik, you posted that as I was typing mine. Lets grab a drink sometime. Speaking of Loam, I agree that it is probably way better than Library. Anyway, here's my list:

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [R] Underground Sea
2 [U] Tropical Island
2 [U] Bayou
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
2 [M10] Ponder
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [NE] Daze
3 [MM] Snuff Out
1 [RAV] Darkblast
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (3)
4 [NPH] Mental Misstep
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [FNM] Smother
SB: 2 [A] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [WWK] Dispel
SB: 2 [NE] Massacre
SB: 2 [OD] Ghastly Demise
SB: 1 [AP] Pernicious Deed

nayon
05-24-2011, 06:01 PM
So you play only 8 win conditions with no way to recur them back from a dredged loam? Seems awkward.

Goddik
05-24-2011, 06:03 PM
GFT is awesome because it gives you an out to confidant and tombstalker, both of which you desperately need to kill. It also lets you board out force in these matchups which is also essential. Having to keep in force just for tombstalker is reallty bad. Snuff out is really good, but it sucks to draw multiples and you need removal that can kill both of those 2.

Ghastly Demise is a sweet 2 off in the board, but don't run more. They get incredibly awkward with tombstalkers if you draw more of them and there are decks against which you want removal but don't want to board it in. (Junk comes to mind).

I am not personally a fan of darkblast as i feel like it is too conditional, i can see the pull though and can't honestly say i have played enough with it to disregard it completely.

In general a nice diversified removal suite is awesome in the deck

Scordata
05-24-2011, 06:14 PM
@ Goddick: I'll concede that opposing Bobs can give this deck fits. We run our own Stalkers, so I'm not sure I buy the argument completely, but with the surge of popularity this deck has been getting, you've convinced me to run GFT in the board somewhere/possibly take out a Snuff Out and Darkblast. The only problem is that it is terribly slow against the matchups where it matters, ala "lots-of-dudes.dec"

Darkblast is for Goyfstalls, and straight up kills mana dorks/bobs/pesky blockers. I am always happy to see it in my hand. EOT Darkblast your dude, dredge it back and darkblast something else to swing with goyf is blowout city. Also, you can filter crap away if its in the yard after a ponder.

@Nayon: Can thresh ran only 8 threats for years, and dominated the metagame. The deck is versatile enough to just "get there" on the back on one or two resolved creatures. With such a heavy flow of disruption, most matchups (barring the mirror and Merfolk) feel like goldfishing.

Goddik
05-24-2011, 06:14 PM
hehe, drinks are always awesome ;)
Anyways, the matchups which Team America looses are generally not the matchups in which your opponents get to resolve something really nasty, it is the matchups in which they have more gas then you. That is why i keep emphasising answers in the main and board which are flexible so that you still have answers going long and can afford to board out force. Forcing anything sucks in most matchups and i generally only keep it in against combo, control or matchups where i expect them to have stuff like blood moon after board. Erring on the side of boarding it out is usually correct.

But it does require you to have a solution suite that can pick up the slack across most of the many matchups in legacy and this is where i feel like spell snare fails. As most bant and w/g decks (which are our bad matchup) cut their goyfs to run zenith it becomes much worse. It also sucks against merfolk where you want to be tapping out contiunously. Most of things you can snare come out of combo or control matchups that aren't really that hard to win anyway, with the one exception being standtill out of landstill. I would consider playing up to 2 if i cut the stifles, but i would not play 4. Cutting spell snares to make room for the missteps was quite a hurdle for me, but i am not looking back and i would rather play pierce or thoughtseize in that slot.

Goddik
05-24-2011, 06:21 PM
Against alot of dudes.deck, it is actually not an issue that some of your removal is expensive. The big issue is that you need to have cheap removal available in your hands for the early turns, once you survive the first 2-3 paying 2 for GFT is no problem, hence why i play the split and board in Ghastly Demise. In my experience this gives me enough cheap removal. Misstep also helps quite a bit.

Darkblast is admittedly awesome enough that its lack of versatility is excusable.

Scordata
05-24-2011, 06:22 PM
Honestly, what I'd really love is someone to convince me that Stifle isn't dead anymore :).

Signorini, I see you reading this thread. Oh Captain, my Captain, care to chime in with some wisdom?

Goddik
05-24-2011, 06:24 PM
Echoes scordata's cry for help from the higher powers:)

nayon
05-24-2011, 06:28 PM
@Nayon: Can thresh ran only 8 threats for years, and dominated the metagame. The deck is versatile enough to just "get there" on the back on one or two resolved creatures. With such a heavy flow of disruption, most matchups (barring the mirror and Merfolk) feel like goldfishing.

Running 8 threats is more or less fine, but dredging loam with 8 threats feels really awkward to me. The problem isn't that you have 8 threats, it's that you have an existent chance of milling your own threats with loam.

What do you do with Loam anyway? Get back wastelands? That's fine, but other than the fringe case of recurring a fetchland to shuffle away a Brainstorm I don't see the purpose. If you were playing Library or Jace or SDT AND Loam, I could get over that. Just some way to make sure you don't dredge your threats. Because while "getting there" with recurred wastelands is good, you need to win the game too.

Scordata
05-24-2011, 06:32 PM
Well, its kind of like how we used to run Predict. It requires a little setting up in order to dredge it back effectively, but when you do, it can be game stealing. Also, just casting it once from your hand nets you a bunch of cards in your hands, which tend to make your brainstorms freaking insane. Remember, its a tool used to break lategame stalls; it should not be used aggressively.

Goddik
05-24-2011, 06:33 PM
you have 4 brainstorm, 4 ponder, you only need to stick one creature to win and you have hymns to empty their hands of swords. As for Loam, try playing with it and/or reading comments from a few pages back. There are about a million ways to abuse it in the deck.

Goddik
05-24-2011, 06:35 PM
@Scordata

Do you have any experience with the landstill matchup?

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
05-24-2011, 06:37 PM
How do you guys feel about the current trend of people switching from EE to Pernicious Deed?

Scordata
05-24-2011, 06:41 PM
@Goddik: Extensive. Stifle is actually your best card here haha.

BUT - realistically either Hymn/Thoughtseize/Spell Snare are the most effective weapons. TS/Hymn should be used very proactively. Their second best use is for breaking a standstill. And Snare keeps the standstill from sticking, so pick your poison. Snare also hits counterspell, so you should play your threats either after a seize, or with a snare and U up.

I've found that you only lose if/when they can stick a Jace/Crucible. Before then, it's anyone's game really. Don't be afraid of breaking a standstill. They are just going to win if you leave it on the table. Save your MM's for their removal spells, and opposing Snares. Remember that it's unlikely they will repeal your stalker.

This is one of the most skill intensive matchups in legacy - PM me if you want to discuss it further.

Goddik
05-24-2011, 06:42 PM
ÈE often feels like alot of work for very little reward, Deed is also alot of work but it wins games all by itself and can win entire matchups instantly on finding it with your ponder.

EE was as far as i understand it essential in earlier versions to deal with zoo, goblins and merfolk. Only one of these is still a real deck.

Scordata
05-24-2011, 06:46 PM
I like EE better than Deed - no color requirements, and if you have to blow it at 1 it costs 1 less. Also it doesn't have any mana requirements - better for tokens and crap like that. Deed@2 and EE@2= 5CMC both, at which point deed becomes stronger for board wiping.
Sure, your not going to hit that Smokestack with EE, but that's what sideboards are for.

nayon
05-24-2011, 06:48 PM
Deed is much better than EE. Yes, it costs more, but it lets you get all of their permanents as opposed to half of their permanents (excluding nonartifact lands, obv). It's also harder and more crippling to play around.

It works better with Tombstalker than goyf, though.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
05-24-2011, 06:53 PM
Deed is much better than EE. Yes, it costs more, but it lets you get all of their permanents as opposed to half of their permanents (excluding nonartifact lands, obv). It's also harder and more crippling to play around.

It works better with Tombstalker than goyf, though.

It's easy for fast aggro to play around Pernicious Deed.

They kill you before you can drop it.

Goddik
05-24-2011, 06:53 PM
i will support Scordata on the point that if you want to main a sweeper it should not be deed. Deed is awesome when you have alot of removal to make it possible to live long enough to crack it, that is not the case pre-board, but is when you board 4 spot removals in.

@Scordata, what are your blue blasts for?

nayon
05-24-2011, 06:56 PM
It's easy for fast aggro to play around Pernicious Deed.

They kill you before you can drop it.

Fair enough. The only aggro deck people play in my meta is merfolk, so I wasn't really thinking that way, but you have a point.

Scordata
05-24-2011, 09:16 PM
@Goddik - The blue blasts are for pesky things like resolved lavamancers, burn spells, random goblin matchups, the odd blood moons, and even red blasts. They may be a crutch. The sideboard changes with fluxes in the meta.

Goddik
05-25-2011, 06:49 AM
in conclusion: I would try replacing the stifles with 2 offs of 2 of the three thoughtseize,spell snare,spell pierce.

Baghram
05-25-2011, 12:04 PM
What do you guys think of cutting ponder entirely, is ponder really needed for the deck? Assuming that you're already running brainstorm, Jace 2.0 and library, and can thoughtseize/duress take that slot?

Goddik
05-25-2011, 12:39 PM
Ponder is the reason this deck never(Edit: Rarely) craps on you, your deck is full of situational cards that you really want multiples of in individual situations and never want otherwise. Wastelands, creatures, forces, lands, removal are all cards that you get away with only running as 4 or 8 offs because you have ponder in your deck. Jace 2.0 is not a replacement as he doesn't solve anything untill you reach 4 mana, which is very late game.

Baghram
05-25-2011, 01:48 PM
@Goddik: Thanks for your insight. And yeah I did notice during testing that I was running out of gas quickly, though normally that happened with either a Goyf/Stalker on the board so technically I was winning.

I considered dropping ponder since I wanted more answers than cantrips so I opted for a list packing more hard-counters (though conditional) than cantrips and so far is working for me.

Counter:
4x Force of Will
4x Mental Misstep
4x Spell Snare
3x Daze/Spell Pierce

During my testing I cut ponder in place of MM, since I did not want to remove Stifle MD since that card can just outright win you the game, even late game it can still work wonders.

I'll try and test out my list against various deck archetypes as I have only tested it against Landstill, MUD, Spiral Tide and Merfolk and packing that counter heavy suite has proven it's worth, though I am really considering dropping Jace 2.0 and might put ponder back in-place of Jace.

kiwi
05-25-2011, 03:10 PM
In my opinion there are two important differences between team america decklists: 22 lands + Jace (may be because stifle is worse with mm and morever with more tribals decks and nobles is harder to screw mana bases) or 20 lands + 4 Stifles. What is better stifles or jaces?

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
05-25-2011, 03:21 PM
I prefer Stifles over Jaces, but the big issue is that Jace will sometimes win games on his own. For Stifle, if they top deck a land -- sometimes you just lose.

Baghram
05-25-2011, 03:38 PM
My gripe about Jace is when he is played your playstyle suddenly becomes control, either your Goyf or Stalker now becomes a wall to protect Jace which could have potentially been have used to bash your opponent in.

But yeah he has good and bad days and is qctually a good deterent to your opponent not hitting your creatures since most players would see Jace as the bigger threat, but isn't it by playing Jace with an unanswered threat (Goyf/Ts) on the table just confuses the gameplan a bit? Since technically he'll just be a win more card.

Don't get me wrong Jace is a good card in itself though I'm concerned if TA really has a home for him. Especially since TA is a tempo deck.

lolosoon
05-25-2011, 05:39 PM
stifle is worse with mm and morever with more tribals decks and nobles is harder to screw mana bases
I disagree.

Stifle gains some power when played along with MM 'cause you can frack with the card that make your mana-denial strategy obsolete : Noble Hierarch, Aether Vial, Goblin Lackey.

All gets stomped by MM, making you stifle way more powerful after that.

Wasteland, Daze, Hymn, along Stifle are the core of this ultra-tempo deck. Without Stifle you're diluting TA main purpose and goal.

If you want to play Jaces, Deeds and a less tempo approach, Jace Landeed (http://mtgdecks.net/decks/view/9692)is the way to go, and it do it well.

Goddik
05-25-2011, 05:57 PM
Your playstyle should be control throughout most of the games. All of your hate is build to set up a temporary window in which your opponent has no resources available. Dropping goyfs on the table prematurely is in most matchups rookie mistake nr1.

My experience with Jace is also that he sucks in maindeck games where you don't want 4 lands on the table (i.e, actively brainstorm them away) and try to finish games by beats because your late game power just isn't all that hardcore. Postboard he is great against most things because your answers are better and you can play more of a pure control game plan, hence why i board him in in like 70% of my matchups but don't main him.

It is important to distinguish between old-school team america and the new-age lists with confidant. The new age lists are not tempo decks, they are control decks and as such are much better suited to run Jace. In fact if you are running confidants i would certainly run at least 2 jace main, maybe even 3.

Goddik
05-25-2011, 06:03 PM
On Lolsoons comment, the Landstill deck Frauenschläger played at BOM is quite nasty and accomplishes much of what the new-age decks attempt to do, just better. It does require a certain playstyle though

keys
05-25-2011, 06:27 PM
Your playstyle should be control throughout most of the games. All of your hate is build to set up a temporary window in which your opponent has no resources available. Dropping goyfs on the table prematurely is in most matchups rookie mistake nr1.

My experience with Jace is also that he sucks in maindeck games where you don't want 4 lands on the table (i.e, actively brainstorm them away) and try to finish games by beats because your late game power just isn't all that hardcore. Postboard he is great against most things because your answers are better and you can play more of a pure control game plan, hence why i board him in in like 70% of my matchups but don't main him.

It is important to distinguish between old-school team america and the new-age lists with confidant. The new age lists are not tempo decks, they are control decks and as such are much better suited to run Jace. In fact if you are running confidants i would certainly run at least 2 jace main, maybe even 3.

This is so true. Just had to QFT

TheShaun
05-25-2011, 06:29 PM
My gripe about Jace is when he is played your playstyle suddenly becomes control, either your Goyf or Stalker now becomes a wall to protect Jace which could have potentially been have used to bash your opponent in.

But yeah he has good and bad days and is qctually a good deterent to your opponent not hitting your creatures since most players would see Jace as the bigger threat, but isn't it by playing Jace with an unanswered threat (Goyf/Ts) on the table just confuses the gameplan a bit? Since technically he'll just be a win more card.

Don't get me wrong Jace is a good card in itself though I'm concerned if TA really has a home for him. Especially since TA is a tempo deck.

I wanted to slightly disagree with part of this, about becoming control instantly when Jace lands. I'd say about 2/3 of the time that I play Jace, it's as a game-ender, not controller. I'll put him down and bounce a dude to get the last few points through, ensure that they don't draw their one-outer to save them before I kill, or just to kill their own Jace that's been locking me down.

About 1/3 of the time I play Jace it's because I know I'm in for the long game and want to strengthen my position as much as possible. It is naturally a control-ish card, but he definitely supports an aggression plan.

Goddik
05-25-2011, 06:38 PM
@Baghram

Much of the power of stifle and wasteland stem from the fact that you can find a an overwhelming supply of them through ponder and brainstorm when your opponent is manascrewed. I.e. you are simulating a 12 card mana denial card plan with 8 cards by running ponder. The same thing goes for dudes, counters and removal. That is why it always seems like the Team America player "has it", because the games go long and you have ponders to find the particular "it" that they are afraid of with their particular draw in that game. Cutting ponders is like peeing to keep yourself warm. It seems like you are adding something the deck needs but everytime you substitute a ponder for gas of a certain type you are removing gas of all the others.

Goddik
05-25-2011, 06:42 PM
It is also very essential to making the 20 land no basics manabase work in practice

Goddik
05-25-2011, 06:50 PM
on the whole temp decks can't run jace issue: AJ Sachers next level Thresh'ish list ran lots of jaces with stifle and wasteland. Team America is likewise more of a tempo-control then a tempo-aggro deck if that makes any sense. The reason you don't want Jace preboard is not that he doesn't win the game every time you resolve him (he does), but that the game doesn't go long enough for you to reliably assemble 4 lands on the table and still have gas enough to fight. Again if you cut the stifles and go to 22 lands then playing jace becomes much more plausible, but at that point you start needing a cardadvantage engine to make up for drawing all those lands if they can deal with jace=> Dark confidant

Worm1605
05-25-2011, 09:24 PM
I have found that both cards are quite good in the main. I used to run jace in the board, but every time I board him in he is amazing. Usually wins you the game if you untap with him. That being said I am a big proponent of stifle. It was the main draw for me to play this deck. I do feel with control being every where and aggro and combo taking a back seat Jace is currently very good in the main for this meta. I am running both because stifle is so important in protecting your own lands against wasteland. I have cut down to 3 which is a 'bit sad. I just found that I was always stuck with them in hand vs a control opponent.

On a side note Thrun has be awesome in the boards or me against landstill. I am also thinking I would like a Null Rod in the board to help agaisnt MUD/Affinity. Thinking about cutting a Snuff Out for a Pulse to help with the Jace war. If you want to check out my list it's on page 62.

Scordata
05-25-2011, 10:21 PM
Goddik hit the nail on the head when it comes to how the deck operates.

You could cut almost any card for a Jace, and it would probably be correct.

Here's the problem with Stifle in the current metagame: If you run Stifle, you have to run Daze, and Daze sucks shit. Your lands drops are more or less critical for this deck to function, much in the same way that Counterbalnce was - 2UU for Jace, BB for Hymn or Stalker, 1GG for 'vore etc. People seem to think that Daze acts as a time walk for lots of decks, but thats really not true. I'd explain it, but its going certainly derail this thread. It really only belongs in Merfolk, where they can cheat on mana, or maybe blue decks from 2007, when we were comfortable running 18 lands. hahah, the good old days.

Wasteland has actually become a spell that costs a land drop. Mana denial just doesn't cut the mustard anymore, and you can't just use your wastelands willy nilly. Stifle is really only good for punishing bad players who keep bad hands, running bad decks. I'll eat my hat if it shows up in the top 8 of this GP.

Pondering Ponder: I think you should run it as a 2-3 of. The reasoning behind this is because Team America, or BUG Tempo, or whatever this deck has become, is comfortable running into the lategame. Ponder will help you find what it is you need when your opponent topdecks a trump card. Mirran Crusader with a Jitte got you down? Ponder up that Diabolic Edict, etc. It's for this reason that you CAN'T keep land light hands with a ponder, hoping to draw some lands with it. It's sort of insane to do so anyway, when the deck runs, what, 22 lands? Also, need I remind you guys that Pondering with a Bob in play is one of the sickest things you can do? As much as it sucks compared to brainstorm, when used effectively, you'll win more games with it as opposed to running more removal. If that's what you're afraid of, cut the thoughtseizes first.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
05-25-2011, 10:59 PM
Here's my current list:

22 Land
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland

8 Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker

32 Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Mental Misstep
3 Ponder
3 Stifle
3 Daze
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Dismember
1 Smother

15 Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Krosan Grip
2 Null Rod
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Darkblast
1 Perish

It pretty much has a lot of everything. And Dredge is played heavily in my meta.

troopatroop
05-25-2011, 11:34 PM
I also haven't given up on Stifle. I think Wasteland and Fetchlands are common enough.

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Tombstalker

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Preordain
3 Mental Misstep
4 Sinkhole
4 Stifle
2 Daze
2 Smother
1 Go for the Throat

I'm giving Sinkhole/Stifle/Wasteland a try once more, because everyone and their brother is trying to ramp to Jace mana. I think Dark Confidant compliments this strategy, because trading cards for their Lands becomes much better when you have a stream of cards coming. I think Stifle is underestimated, because you can't mulligan a hand because it contains Fetchlands. Stifle on their turn 1 Fetch into Dark Confidant is scary, especially with Sinkhole + Wasteland in your deck.

Jace costs 4 mana. It's not hard to deny them of that, especially while on the play. Thoughts on Sinkhole? It seems good with Dark Confidant.

Scordata
05-26-2011, 12:10 AM
You guys are just posting worse UGb thresh lists. When it becomes clear that mana denial is your strategy, competent opponents will play around that. This was an acceptable deck selection pre-misstep.

I have seen the light, and his name is Jace.

metamet
05-26-2011, 02:20 AM
Check this article: http://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/05/the-future-of-america-team/

Since Misstep is in Legacy, America has definitely changed. A lot.

If you're not playing Jace, you're playing the deck wrong.
If you're playing Jace and Daze, you're really playing the deck wrong.

If you're playing Stifle, you probably shouldn't be.

Confidant is much better than Tombstalker right now. Stalker will just get unsummoned and you will lose. Stalker also wants Daze and Stifle, which doesn't bode well with Misstep, as you become a very inefficient MUC deck at that point.

Don't run Force, Misstep, Daze, AND Stifle. Especially with Stalker. You have too many reactionary spells with too few proactive cards and no draw source.

The best series of turns with America & Bob is:

T1 Thoughtseize/Inquisition
T2 Hymn
T3 Bob
T4 Jace

Bob and Jace are absurd together.

Goddik
05-26-2011, 03:43 AM
Running Force, Misstep, Daze and Stifle is fine in the old list. Misstep is actually brilliant in the land destruction plan by countering brainstorm and hierarch, even ponder at particular times to deny tempo. The reason the author can't find room is because he has a large number of cute cards in the main like Kira and clique.

Daze is still awesome, everyone and their mother wants to cast this little toddler called Jason, getting him past daze and wasteland isn't all that easy.

That being said it is a pretty good article with its emphasis on the two strands as different decks.

My big gripe with running confidant is that he forces you to commit to the board on turn 2. This is admittedly much easier when you have 4 missteps and 3-4 thoughtseize effects, but he is just so bad in so many situations. I really want a cardadvantage engine in the deck, but not one that is so fragile. Results do though speak for him, but i am far from convinced that it is the only way to play the deck.

On the confidant lists: What are peoples experience with regards to a secondary creature? AJ sacher played vendillion clique in the last open, GerryT originally ran terravore and LSV seems to have popularised the 2 Tombstalkers. What are peoples opinion on these?

Goddik
05-26-2011, 03:46 AM
As a side note i think it would be awesome to have some knowledge of the mirrors between the two variations on the deck.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
05-26-2011, 04:58 AM
Eh, I'm sticking with the old list for now. The article was interesting. I do agree that once you had Dark Confidant that Team America becomes what others would call "Dark Thresh."

Baghram
05-26-2011, 07:37 AM
On the Bob discussion, before I was packing Bob and had a list similar to the one below.

Creatures:
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant

Disruption:
4x Hymn To Tourach
4x Thoughtseize/Duress

Counter:
4x Force of Will
4x Counterspell
3x Daze/Spell Pierce
2x Misdirection
2x Spell Snare

Cantrips:
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
2x Preordain

The thing about it is that even with the printing of MM the most crucial turn for that list would be T1 since whatever they play you'll need to work around it somehow (Vial, Top, Lackey, Nacatl) then suddenly it becomes a race, Bob is excellent in winning that race but I ended up always racing my opponent with that list every game whenever a T1 card is played by the opponent. Though if you can stop say T1 - T2, the games already won as long as Bob is able to stick. But what I liked about this list was the sheer raw power the card is able to bring, and if the opponent can't handle such onslaught it's already game set.

For those that have tested the 4 Goyf / 4 Bob / 2 Stalker combination, how does it bode for you? Does packing Stalker, FOW & Snuff Out end up back breaking, especially with the fetches, MM and Fow?

Zamussels
05-26-2011, 02:26 PM
Are you guys keeping sideboard slots for Landstill or is it not popular enough?

Here's my thoughts on that:

Jace, the Mind Sculptor: Mana intensive but good against other decks too. Can be played as a 2-of in the maindeck to make space in the board for other things. Stops their Jaces and is a threat they will have trouble answering.

Thrun, the Last Troll: Mana intensive also. Not good against anything else. Seems that most Landstill decks have almost no way of dealing with him. Maybe I'm overrating the impact of this card against them? If it's an auto-win, should probably be run.

Bitterblossom: Hard to deal with for them, but must be played early to have an impact. Doesn't seem good against most other decks. Not sure I'd run that if I had Dark Confidant though.

Duress: Good against them, and good against combo and other control decks too. Seems worth it to run extra discard in the sideboard, especially if you don't run Thoughtseize in the MD.

Phyrexian Revoker: Deals with Jace and can beatdown too. They can repeal him or kill him easily though. Seems decent against some other decks too. A popular SB card in the top8 SCG decks.

Creeping Tar Pit: Seems like it would be good under a Standstill. They can't deal with it other than Wasteland, and you ca waste their wastes before playing it. Not sure it's worth a SB slot as they can still deal with it and it's not good with anything else.

Maelstrom Pulse: Can kill Jace and any random cards they might have to annoy you. Is also good against most other decks. Should be ran maindeck instead of Go for the Throat as a 2 of?

So the possibilities are to run Pulse / Duress / Revoker / MD Jace and hope that's enough to even the playing field, or run Thrun that's not good against anything else. Or ignore the matchup and play the best cards against the rest of the field. If I run Thrun in the SB, it's at the expense of cards like Null Rod or Crypt/Nihil Spellbomb. If I ran one of these narrow cards as a 2-of, which should it be? Or none of it and go with only general answers in the SB + keep Llawan for Merfolk and Progenitus.

nayon
05-26-2011, 02:51 PM
I don't think you'd really get a chance to resolve any of those cards other than Thrun against that deck if they play it right.

Goddik
05-26-2011, 05:11 PM
Thrun is definately a possibility, i hate the guy as he is useless in nearly all other matchups, but if landstill is the big problem then he certainly should deal with it. Life from the loam is also a sweet answer which along with Jace should be your first line of defense

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
05-26-2011, 08:19 PM
I'm giving Thrun a try, too. I just can't shake how useless he is in other matchups. It seems Jace, if we can resolve him, would be a much better answer.

As long as you can stick him and prevent your opponent from doing the same, you should have the game sealed.

Or am I wrong?

bkemke
05-26-2011, 10:47 PM
I wanted to share some (small) recent success with TA. I won a box at a local game store with the following:

Creatures:
4 Dark Confidant (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Dark%20Confidant)
4 Tarmogoyf (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Tarmogoyf)
2 Vendilion Clique (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Vendilion%20Clique)

Spells:
4 Force of Will (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Force%20of%20Will)
4 Brainstorm (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Brainstorm)
4 Mental Misstep (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Mental%20Misstep)
4 Hymn to Tourach (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Hymn%20to%20Tourach)
3 Ponder (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Ponder)
3 Thoughtseize (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Thoughtseize)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Jace,%20the%20Mind%20Sculptor)
2 Go for the Throat (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Go%20for%20the%20Throat)
1 Pernicious Deed (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Pernicious%20Deed)
1 Darkblast (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Darkblast)

Lands:
4 Polluted Delta (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Polluted%20Delta)
4 Misty Rainforest (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Misty%20Rainforest)
4 Underground Sea (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Underground%20Sea)
4 Wasteland (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Wasteland)
2 Tropical Island (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Tropical%20Island)
2 Island (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Island)
1 Swamp (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Swamp)
1 Bayou (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Bayou)

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Leyline%20of%20the%20Void)
2 Submerge (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Submerge)
2 Krosan Grip (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Krosan%20Grip)
2 Spell Snare (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Spell%20Snare)
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Llawan,%20Cephalid%20Empress)
1 Pernicious Deed (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Pernicious%20Deed)
1 Thrun, the Last Troll (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Thrun,%20the%20Last%20Troll)
1 Life from the Loam (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Life%20from%20the%20Loam)

I'm a believer in a few specific card choices I want to expand on.

Ponder: Since our best play is turn 2 Hymn, I see Ponder as the best means to optimize the chances of turn 2 hymn. Ponder allows us to see up to 4 for a total of about 11-12 cards by second turn.

Vendillion Clique: Playing Dark Confidant slows down the clock so Clique is useful in closing the game out quickly and the evasion is useful as well.

Spell Snare: I boarded in both for every matchup and would play with 3 in the board going forward. Great in the mirror and against random blue decks.

Skeggi
05-27-2011, 02:42 AM
What are good sideaboard cards against Merfolk? I've tried Engineerd Plague, but it was very underwhelming. Now I'm using Pernicious Deed and Phyrexian Revoker, which are fine. What other cards are out there which are suitable for the sideboard to deal with Merfolk mainly, but is flexible to use against other match-ups too (so no Llawan)?

Hopo
05-27-2011, 03:08 AM
What are good sideaboard cards against Merfolk? I've tried Engineerd Plague, but it was very underwhelming. Now I'm using Pernicious Deed and Phyrexian Revoker, which are fine. What other cards are out there which are suitable for the sideboard to deal with Merfolk mainly, but is flexible to use against other match-ups too (so no Llawan)?

Llawan also answers Progenitus and blue reanimation targets, so it is not entirely useless against non-merfolk. If you think that might be relevant, Llawan is a fine choice.

Goddik
05-27-2011, 02:24 PM
Check my list awhile back. There seems to be 2 general strategies, Llawan and needles or literal truckloads of removal some of which is the hardcore kind. I have gamed alot with the last one which is quite usefull in a number of other matchups. It is not ( i am guessing) quite as good against merfolk if they have standstill though.

Lord_Cyrus
05-28-2011, 11:13 AM
There is another strategy to consider against Merfolk, and perhaps the only real way to pull out game one: Pernicious Deed. IMO this is one of the best reason to play multiple deeds mainboard, because without Stifle, one deed can fry all the fish. If you are playing this strategy, try hard to bait out their counters and save a thoughtseize or inquisition for the turn you play the deed.

wcm8
05-29-2011, 05:12 PM
Played TA in Providence this weekend, no byes going in. Played out all 15 rounds, and ended in 61st place at 11-4. I'll post a more in depth report and decklist, but two teasers: I was running 0 dark confidants and 4 stifle, and there is a "secret" sideboard tech that will enable you to beat non-basic hate. Major props to Dan Signorigni for helping with a few last minute tweaks which proved to be useful all two days.

Goddik
05-29-2011, 05:13 PM
Sweet, looking forward to it.

the_ob3lisk
05-30-2011, 01:09 AM
Played TA in Providence this weekend, no byes going in. Played out all 15 rounds, and ended in 61st place at 11-4. I'll post a more in depth report and decklist, but two teasers: I was running 0 dark confidants and 4 stifle, and there is a "secret" sideboard tech that will enable you to beat non-basic hate. Major props to Dan Signorigni for helping with a few last minute tweaks which proved to be useful all two days.

Played TA this past weekend as well. Very intrigued as what you have to share! I was trying to figure out a way to incorporate mana maze and have it be great tech.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
05-30-2011, 03:57 AM
Played TA in Providence this weekend, no byes going in. Played out all 15 rounds, and ended in 61st place at 11-4. I'll post a more in depth report and decklist, but two teasers: I was running 0 dark confidants and 4 stifle, and there is a "secret" sideboard tech that will enable you to beat non-basic hate. Major props to Dan Signorigni for helping with a few last minute tweaks which proved to be useful all two days.

Not sure if this means anything, but the more I play this deck the more I'm believing the "classic list" is better than the new more controlling lists.

wcm8
05-30-2011, 07:40 PM
Link to my report: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21023-In-the-Money-with-Team-America-Grand-Prix-Providence&p=554669#post554669

Goddik
06-01-2011, 11:24 AM
Sweet report, digging the sowers;). The seals are also a nice piece of tech, though i am not quite sure how extensively i would board them in. But seems like they have a sort of Deed-like insurance effect when on the battlefield.

wcm8
06-01-2011, 12:30 PM
Wow, Team America finally makes it into the DTB section! I think this deserves a round of applause to all those who have contributed to this thread, helped with the development, and played the deck in all the various tournaments to top finishes. Unfortunately for us TA players, this also means that anyone meta-gaming is going to be even more likely to take our deck into account when they put together their main/SB, and unfortunately there are multitude of ways to attack our build. Expect to start scooping to more Blood Moons and Price of Progresses in the near future!

The way I see TA, there are two versions: The 'Tempo'/Classic version that runs Stifle and Tombstalkers, and the 'Midrange' version that runs Dark Confidant and drops the stifles for maindeck Jace, a few more lands, and typically some targeted discard. While the two versions play completely differently, there is so much card overlap that I can see why someone would still consider them both "Team America", much in the same way you have 'fast zoo' and 'big zoo'.

The Classic build seems to have a slightly easier time against aggro and combo decks, thanks to a big evasive finisher and stifle. This build is more concerned with closing out early and wants to keep the opponent in the early game for as long as possible. It achieves this by keeping the opponent low on land with Stifle and Wasteland, while disrupting their attempts at playing anything with Hymn to Tourach, Daze, Mental Misstep, and Force of Will. Then a big creature joins the field and races their life total to zero while the disruption continues. Eight card filtering effects (Ponder and Brainstorm) aid in keeping the plan more consistently achieved.

The Midrange build can play very similarly to the classic version, but the absence of stifle, smaller creatures, and slightly higher curve means that this build will enter the mid and late game more frequently. The weakness of the tempo build is that it can often run out of cards by turn 6, whereas Dark Confidant keeps your hand full of action. Some versions also run maindeck Pernicious Deed which can turn a losing board position completely around. Jace often simply wins the game when he hits the table against some decks. I suppose that this version is better against some control matchups, but it seems to have more difficulty against creature decks since Confidant can't fight through a paper bag. Which version you decide to play should depend on your guess of the metagame, and also what type of game that you'd prefer to play.

Anyways, this is just a short overview of the deck for anyone joining this thread in its new DTB forum.

positivenegative
06-07-2011, 04:41 PM
Has anyone ever considered/tried running Juzam Djinn as another creature? Seems like a solid cheap threat that would fit well in TA.

keys
06-07-2011, 06:03 PM
Has anyone ever considered/tried running Juzam Djinn as another creature? Seems like a solid cheap threat that would fit well in TA.

The fact that you suggest Juzam and not Plague Sliver means you have some personal attachment to it, either because you dropped a benj on it, or it's been a pet card of yours. In any case, it's not playable.

If you want additional creatures, look at Terravore, Vendilion Clique, and potentially Kira, Great Glass Spinner.

positivenegative
06-07-2011, 06:54 PM
I guess I just figured it was a cheap threat. Is it that BB is too mana intensive or getting pinged every turn just isn't worth it? I personally don't own any Juzums' and was just tired of my V. Cliques fragility.

Either way, Terravore is really good and I'll definitely be trying that out.

Solar Ice
06-07-2011, 07:21 PM
I guess I just figured it was a cheap threat. Is it that BB is too mana intensive or getting pinged every turn just isn't worth it?

Just that it doesn't have any evasion and Tarmo beats it in every way, for half the cc. Taking 1/turn and getting chumped ad nauseum isn't very appealing either. Terravore at least has Trample and the potential for a much bigger butt late game.

@ Topic:

I'm interested to know if you guys are still running Tombstalker or have most dropped it in favour of Confidant?

On a side note, I do agree with those that say once you drop Tomby, the deck is not really TA anymore but rather Dark Thresh or BUG tempo, due to the different way it plays.

GtF
06-08-2011, 03:26 PM
I tested confidant and tombstalker and I still like the tombstalker version better. Confidant completely changes the way the deck plays and makes it worse in my opinion. But yeah as people have said, they're really two different decks when you switch in confidant since it affects a lot of your other choices.

Arsenal
06-08-2011, 03:45 PM
Once you drop Stile + Tombstalker, and start adding more pinpoint discard + Confidant + Jace + more lands to support Jace, you're playing a different deck imo.

wcm8
06-08-2011, 04:01 PM
Stifle seems like a great card to be playing these days, despite just about every deck running mental misstep. It can steal games sometimes, and is perhaps the most important card in terms of playing the aggressive "tempo" role. With plenty of decks running Stoneforge mystic and/or ancestral vision, and hivemind combo now being a "real" deck, it's bound to have targets beyond simply fetch lands.

Lemnear
06-09-2011, 01:20 AM
The plan of playing Confidant, Clique and Jaces in this deck is a bad one the last time I tested this configuration in a tournament last week. I stomped Control and Aggro-Control but had terrible losses against fast Aggro, like Affinity, Zoo or Sligh-burn. Even you rip their hand you Need more pressure in form of Stalker. I always ended up with Goofy's sworded and Confidant facing "boards of beats" smashing me in the face too. Clique is cool vs. Landstill and stoneforge trigger but is very passive in the average game

positivenegative
06-09-2011, 11:36 AM
Personally I've done really well with the Jace/Bob/Clique version of this deck vs. fast aggro decks like zoo with 2 Pernicious Deed in the main. That card just shuts them down. I've been trying a combination of the more tempo-oriented version, and the control version and i've been liking it quite a bit. My real problem with the new style of the deck is that it doesn't play daze.

The thing to remember is that landing your 2-drops ON turn 2 if the most important thing you can do in this deck, which is why you need to be running daze's. Who cares if we bounce a land to resolve a hymn or a bob, etc, because the best spells in the deck cost 2 mana. Chances are we will be trying to resolve a 2-drop on turn 3 anyways, so why not back up your dudes with more countermagic.

Lemnear
06-09-2011, 11:46 AM
I ran misstep, force, hymn and spell snare because of stoneforge, Confidant, goofy, standstill, etc. and that suit was pretty nice. Daze + Clique + Jace doesn't sound good in my ears.

positivenegative
06-09-2011, 01:31 PM
I tried running spell pierce but I couldn't get past the fact that I had to choose (assuming I didn't have a force in hand) over whether or not I could make a 2 drop, or counter an opponents 2 drop. On the play, I want to cast a hymn AND counter their stoneforge, etc- daze lets you do that.

kiwi
06-10-2011, 11:34 AM
One doubt, Im playing now the version with 20 lands + stifles and without Jaces, Do you think that is correct to keep an initial hand with 1 land and 1 cantrip (we dont know what is playing our opponent)?

I think that yes what I would like to read your oppinions

Parax
06-10-2011, 01:31 PM
I think i would if it was Ponder, it'd be debatable if it was Brainstorm. You know you'll still not be drawing the Land in the next 2 Cards. Ponder gives you a shuffle if you need it

wcm8
06-10-2011, 01:40 PM
What he said^^

Also, it's far more keepable if that one-lander includes a daze or two, because you'll still be making "land drops" with that one land for a turn or two.

However, it is definitely risky. The rest of the hand should justify keeping it.

Goddik
06-10-2011, 07:00 PM
Almost never if it was brainstorm, definately with a ponder on 6, With a ponder and awesome sauce, maybe on 7. You should also consider whether your oponent plays wasteland.

DragoFireheart
06-10-2011, 10:30 PM
Phyrexian Obliterator

Is it possible to run him at all or is his 4 BB cost too much?

wcm8
06-10-2011, 10:49 PM
Too much.

You only have 4 Underground Seas and a Bayou. They are all susceptible to Wasteland, and 4 for an evasive beater is 2 too much. Just run 4 Goyf, 4 Tombstalker.

DragoFireheart
06-10-2011, 10:57 PM
Then he's basically a Suicide Black card. Thought so.

useL
06-11-2011, 03:14 AM
I tried Chrome Mox in a local tournament last week. It allowed me to land hymn round 1 or even bob round one. I am aware that its a different deck (i run it without stifle and no tombstalker) but it flew through most of my opponents. What are your thoughts on chrome mox?

GGoober
06-11-2011, 12:00 PM
SCG REALLY needs to get their deck archetype labels correct:


Team America
A Legacy Magic deck, by Alex Krenik
10th place at a StarCityGames.com Legacy Open tournament in Indianapolis, Indiana, United States on 2011-06-05
As reported at http://www.starcitygames.com/openseries
Click here to see a summary of all decks from StarCityGames.com Invitational
Maindeck:

Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
2 Sower of Temptation
4 Tarmogoyf

Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Go for the Throat
4 Mental Misstep
2 Putrefy
4 Stifle

Legendary Creatures
2 Vendilion Clique

Sorceries
3 Preordain

Basic Lands
1 Island

Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Null Rod
2 Yixlid Jailer
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Krosan Grip
3 Spell Pierce
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress

Isn't this just Nassif-style BUG?

wcm8
06-13-2011, 08:40 AM
If you look at the top 16 of the last SCG open, you'll see that it's mostly combo or decks that can beat combo. Classic TA is pretty much the 'combo slayer' of decks, while still having game against opposing control and aggro decks. Now seems to be a great time to be playing TA, especially if Hive Mind truly becomes the combo DTB.

Goddik
06-13-2011, 01:15 PM
hehe, none of the merfolk lists ran standstill....

Seriously, it is a really good deck right now, the big thing is having a sideboard capable of killing merfolk and the new breed of control decks. That is not always a given, but it is certainly possible.

Also Breakfast? Really? That is like a free win waiting to happen.

wcm8
06-13-2011, 01:20 PM
What cards do you think answer the u/w and u/b/g lists best? I'm just running 3 spell pierce in the side to help out, but duress/thoughtseize and maybe pithing needle might be better.

Koby
06-13-2011, 01:43 PM
What cards do you think answer the u/w and u/b/g lists best? I'm just running 3 spell pierce in the side to help out, but duress/thoughtseize and maybe pithing needle might be better.

Loam is useful, as well as both Clique and Thoughtseize/Duress. Actually, Duress is probably better since their creatures are non-existent or can be ignored all together. Spell Pierce is useful too, especially in conjunction with Duress; its highly useful in other matchups as well. Essentially, you can play the same cards that Deedstill do, but with a faster clock.

Have people been playing EE lately? It seems great against the aggro decks where Deed is 0.5-1 turn slower.

Goddik
06-13-2011, 05:56 PM
I would not run needle, the only thing you want to needle in the BUG deck is Jace, and you should have him after board yourself, plus if they actually keep in the deeds it gets really awkward really fast. I think the time might have come to board a few thoughtseizes (not duress) along with the spell pierces. It is also possible to board them in against merfolk which is nice, given that you want to board out 12 cards.

I am still a huge fan of 2 post board loams in alot of matchups (including merfolk) , so that one works.

One option is also to run extirpates as your main graveyard hate as extirpating the BUG decks lands is a plan worth considering.

I am really not a fan of EE in the deck as i feel it does too little to slowly, but i can see the point, particularly if zoo takes of.

Goddik
06-13-2011, 06:12 PM
The big thing to note is that it is likely to devolve into an atrittion fight as they have way to many answers to our threats, this makes countering visions/standstill and jace the nr1 priority. If you can keep those off the table, then hymn, stifle and waste can do their magic.

Once you get past their "threaths" you want value, i.e. Loam +hymn. Thrun could also be usefull though i would only play him as a last resort, he is so terrible in all other matchups. Any card in your sideboard that does nothing against merfolk/g/w (in the european meta) is a bit of burden, though you can afford to run a few.

Sylvan library is also an option, as is running a few spell snares main.

Vendillion clique is possible, but there is honestly not that many matchups that i want it in beyond those, so at that point i think you should just run the last troll.

Goddik
06-13-2011, 06:12 PM
The big thing to note is that it is likely to devolve into an atrittion fight as they have way to many answers to our threats, this makes countering visions/standstill and jace the nr1 priority. If you can keep those off the table, then hymn, stifle and waste can do their magic.

Once you get past their "threaths" you want value, i.e. Loam +hymn. Thrun could also be usefull though i would only play him as a last resort, he is so terrible in all other matchups. Any card in your sideboard that does nothing against merfolk/g/w (in the european meta) is a bit of burden, though you can afford to run a few.

Sylvan library is also an option, as is running a few spell snares main.

Vendillion clique is possible, but there is honestly not that many matchups that i want it in beyond those, so at that point i think you should just run the last troll.

Kellyx
06-14-2011, 12:17 AM
Just wondering, had anyone tryed playing it without green splash?
All it has from green is tarmogoyf.And krosan grips in sb which can be replaced easily.
Replacing tarmogoyfs with, lets say, tomb stalkers will allow you to have a realy stable mana base with a lot of basics.

Parax
06-14-2011, 12:47 AM
Post your list now, as i can't see you playing any list really without Tombstalker as it is.

I run

4 TS
4 Goyf
2 Vend

Even those who run Bob tend to run

4 Bob
4 Goyf
2 TS
1-2 Vend clique

catmint
06-14-2011, 08:06 AM
Hi,

I am pretty new to TA and have access now to BUG control or the tempo list, which I am both testing online in MWS. I am spending some time reading and thinking about what to play in which meta and some specific card choices: Stifle, Ponder, Jace, Maelstrom Pulse, Thoughtseize

Current questions I have to you:
1) I saw some tempo lists and thougthseize was absent. Despite an opponents brainstrom and MM - isn't it still good enough to cut some cards (maybe -1 stifle, -1 Ponder, -1 Removal)
what was the reason not to include it?

2) which experiences do you have running 20 lands with more expensive cards in the sideboards (jace's or sower of temptation, Thrun wich only 3 green mana sources).

3) How about 1 Sylvan Library in MD? With 4 brainstorm and 3-4 Ponder - don't you think it is better to fill that slot with gas?

4) I want to play tempo, but I love Jace. What are your experiences running Jace in the classic TA maindeck? What to cut/consider?

5) what are your metagame considerations if you think about more control or tempo oriented?

Thanks a lot for your input!
Looking forward to join you in this thread.

Btw.: I think it is ok to discuss TA and BUG control (if its not deedstill) in this thread since there is a lot of hybrid and SB transformation going on as well...

kiwi
06-14-2011, 08:59 AM
I dont like to play Jace in classic version because usually you never want more than 3 lands in play, on other hand againts control decks I think that is a good sb plan having trhuns or jaces because is easy to arrive to the late game vs control decks.

I have tested different versions of this deck with confidants,22 lands+jace,fatestalker, etc.. and Im playing now the version from wcm8, its very solid although the worst enemy of this deck is merfolks.

Goddik
06-16-2011, 06:29 PM
The problem with new age Team America in the current meta as i see it (a bit theory based though so feel free to disagree if you have testing to back it) is that you are trying to fill the same role as the BUG landstill and the U/W mystic deck as a control deck. The problem is that while your combo matchup is probably better the "control mirror" should be awefull when your card advantage is the fragile confidant and theirs is standstill and visions (no stifle). I.e. you are breaking Flores' prime directive by playing a worse version of their deck and should just be playing BUGstill which is a very good deck right now. (given the current meta)

The tempo version can sidestep the cardadvantage war a bit by being much more agressive in its assault on their manabase and hand and its lower need to commit to the board early.

For a defense of the 4 ponders check my earlier posts, same goes for Jace in classic Team America.

Expensive cards in the sideboard: I love life from the loam as it effectively lets you board into extra lands + absolutely destroys certain matchups, if you check my BOM list we ran 1 main and 1 board to support a much higher curve post-board while still maintaining the ability and desire to function off 2-3 lands preboard.

Thoughtseize has sometimes been played in the lists, the problem is that you usually don't care very much about the specific composition of your opponents hand, so the targeted aspect is semi irrelevant. It used to be that napping swords was very nice, but with mental misstep that is lessened somewhat. Note though that it is a more essential element of the confidant lists that do care very much about their opponents opening hand (part of the decks weakness)

With the advent of real control decks there might be room for thoughtseize to come back as you do very much care about their standstills and to some extent Jace as well as other haymakers they might play.

If you guys have trouble with merfolk check out my sideboard from BOM, it is very potent against merfolk postboard if they don't run standstill (which seems to be the current fashion) The main thing in designing an anti merfolk plan is to have enough cards in your SB be relevant to let you board out 4 Force, 4 Misstep, 4 stifle as those are all absolutely useless

Taylor
06-16-2011, 06:58 PM
Hi,

what do you guys think about Consuming Vapors at the moment. Are you still playing this card? Against Zoo it's awesome, against Bant it's pretty good, but against every other deck (especially Merfolk) it's way too slow in my opinion. I used to play two of them but almost everytime i drew them i wished they would be just a simple removal spell like Go for the Throat.

Goddik
06-16-2011, 07:00 PM
I have loved sower in that spot, it does much of the same, except it takes their best creature rather than their worst, it also doesn't get cursecatchered which is very relevant.

catmint
06-17-2011, 04:07 AM
Thanks Goddick. Makes a lot of sense. Where do I find your decklist and SB?

Did you check out the SCG Article too much information TP Providence?
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/22134_Too_Much_Information_Grand_Prix_Providence.html

It analyses matchups and win% of the GP and as we know TA was pretty poor.
I think it was mostly because of the mixup TA and BUG control. It would be interesting to know how many classic TA were in there.

The statistic shows:
Worst matchup vs. top decks were Merfolk, Zoo, Affinity, Stoneblade, Bant and UW Landstill. TA win% between 30-40%.

I think it has to do with what you say Goddick, that the confident BUG control verison has a lot of problems vs. aggro decks, becuase confident is fragile and it is tough to get the control with so many threats and equpments out there. Also UW landstill is obv. a bad matchup as mentioned earlier...

My testing so far shows me that I have a much better game vs. the listed decks by playing 8 giant creatures and relying on classic disruption and tempo rather than the card advantage from confident.

Goddik
06-17-2011, 04:20 AM
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?11605-DTB-Team-America/page62

the list is a bit outdated, but it is where i would start testing with a focus on the landstill decks. Also postboard games are quite important, Team America is capable of some pretty hardcore sideboard changes due to its flexibility in how you assign your role in a given matchup. My best comparison is against standard faeries which routinely boarded into u/b control postboard.

Arsenal
06-19-2011, 03:32 PM
Been playing with the traditional Tombstalker build for a couple weeks now and have been loving it. I'm absolutely crushing that GP Providence Bant list at my LGS, and playing Force + Hymn in the same deck almost feels like I'm cheating.

catmint
06-20-2011, 04:49 AM
Hi,
I went to my local Tourney this Sunday playing TA for the first time. I went 3-1-1, made ~2-3 bad plays and I could have won the draw in the last round but overall I was happy with the performance.
I would love to hear quality comments on my list/plays/learnings if you take the time to read! Thanks!

My list:

Wincons
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Tombstalker
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Counters
4x Force of Will
4x Mental Misstep
3x Daze

Disruption
3x Stifle
4x Hymn To Tourach

Draw
2x Ponder
4x Brainstorm

Removal
1x Go for the Throat
1x Dismember
2x Maelstrom Pulse

Lands
4x Underground Sea
2x Tropical Island
2x Bayou
10x Fetch
4x Wasteland

Sideboard
3x Smother
1x Extirpate
2x Surgical Extraction
3x Pernicious Deed.
2x Thrun, the last Troll
2x Null Rod
2x Krosan Grip


My 2 Llawans did not arrive yet and the extractions should have been extirpates.

Round 1: High Tide 2:0 –> 1 -0
A suboptimal list with Exploration and no Force of Will. Hymn and Tombstalker get the Job done in both games.
G2: I misplayed a surgical extraction thinking there is a high tide in the graveyard. I had to take Time Spiral finding 2 high tide and cunning wish in his hand with 4 lands holding 1 counter. I decided to go the save route playing a hymn this turn. I had to shuffle away my tombstalker, but luckily drew another one.

Round 2: Merfolk 0:2 -> 1 - 1
Game 1: I misstep his aether vial and he uses wasteland. It was a very long game where he forces a tarmogyof and beats me down with Matavault down to 2 life. I brainstorm for a tombstalker and we play draw-go for ~5 rounds. My only removal I hold in hand since the beginning is Maelstrom Pulse, which really sucked in this game. I could not kill his Mutavault and when he played his Lord of Atlantis I could also just watch him beating me to death.

Game 2: I side out 3 stifle and 3 Force for 3 deed and 3 smother.
We fight over his aether vial, which I win with missetep + daze. He plays a bunch of creatures and forces my deed. My 2nd deed was too slow. In this game I did not saw a single creature which would have made the game more interesting.

Round 3: A homemade “creature sac deck” 2:1 -> 2 – 1
The guy was really bad. He did not know what Force of Will is and had no SB. After destroying him G1 I got arrogant, sided really stupid, kept a bad hand and lost game 2 to a very fast start where he could play out his creature sac technique which made him 2 monsters.
Game 3 I have 2 Gyofs and deed, but no counter. He has turn 2 Braids, Cabal Minion which would have won him the game if he wouldn’t have saced it himself after me deeding his board.

..phu, I got lucky here winning with my suboptimal hands G2 & 3. Would have been really disappointed loosing to such a random bad deck.

Round 4: Pox: 2:0 -> 3 – 1
G1: He keeps a hand with 3 wastelands. I make a mistake by stifling his fetch-land instead of waiting to use it on his wasteland (which was my intention). I think stifling his fetch is correct if I have 1-2 more lands in play, but I only had access to 2 lands. Thank god I only draw lands and play goyf, goyf, tombstalker for the win.

G2: He is stuck on land & chrome mox, wasting me 1 land but is doing nothing for 3 rounds. That makes me think he has a hand full of smallpox/removal and maybe a creature, so I wait for disruption. I pulse his chrome mox and play 2 hymn. That helped me dazing his last disruption piece and I win with a Tombstalker.

Round 5: Dredge 1:1 timeout -> 3 - 1- 1
G1: takes ages, because I disrupt him mist Misstep, Daze & wasteland. Since I cannot provide a clock, he could take his time to cabal, dread return for the win. I should have scooped when he had 2 bridges, but I had Maelstrom Pulse. It just bought some time tough…

G2: He dredges a Bridge in his first dredge, which is removed with surgical extraction. It still took me very long to kill, because I could not find a creature.

G3: I counter his first 2 plays and manage to surgical extract his Bridges, before he has a meaningful board. Since, I had no clock, the game went on and we ran out of time. It was close because he almost would have been able to dread return a monster, but he was lacking creatures due to multiple cabals. Having a goyf in play and a Force in hand I certainly would have won the game if we would have more time.

My learnings:
Maelstrom Pulse is probably not a maindeck card. I played it to have some answers to random artifacts/entchantments….most of the time instant speed creature removal is what I want.

I played Jace only once versus High Tide where he provided nice control with 2 fate seals. Was win more anyway… I never saw him again and I think in the long grinding games G1 Merfolk and the 3 dredge games he would have been very useful!

I might go up to 3 Ponder. I understand better now how important it is to have access to creatures/disruption when you need them. Don’t know what to cut yet. Obviously Jace and 1-2 lands could be cut, but…I just love Jace and he needs land drops… :(.

I like 3 stifles, since there are many decks in my meta where it is not that good/useless. If there would be a lot of mystics/hive mind running around I would probably go to 4 stifle.

SB was a poor choice. I packed Null Rod versus affinity/metalworker, but they were not there and I can probably beat these decks with my MD + deed. Any experiences from your side?

Thrun, the last Troll was there versus 2 guys I know playing a real control deck. Since I know 3 Merfolk players and the matchup is probably worse, I should have dedicated more slots to the fish. However, I don't think Thrun is completely useless. Versus Zoo or Burn I am happy to side him in along with removal versus Force of Will & Stifle. Am I wrong here?

The extirpate/surgical extractions were very useful. I know 3 reanimator decks in the meta and it obviously helps also versus other things like Loam, Bloodghast or combo in general. Since I also know some dredge players, I will probably play 1-2 Nihil spellbomb in the future!

1-2 Life from the Loam would have also been useful at times, so maybe I just stop thinking on my own playing Goddiks list. :)

nesys
06-20-2011, 05:51 AM
hi folks,

instead of chrome mox, how about mox diamond?

- you can accelerate everything, like chrome mox
- the mana is more protected from wasteland, like chrome mox
- you have an artifact type for tarmo, like chrome mox
- imprint is under stifle, mox diamond not
- with mox diamond you'll have a land in your cemetary: tarmo loves that
- with chrome mox you'll probably lose a good card without cemetary growth.

but my question is: we could play chrome mox or mox diamond, without generate a mana instability?
I know, that could be a possible solution vs blood moon effects ...
I would like to know your opinion about that.

Regards

Kellyx
06-20-2011, 08:24 AM
4 misstep 4 fow 3 daze 3 stiffle is an overkill.
i would cut stifle or dazes. just imo

Arsenal
06-20-2011, 11:21 AM
For those running Consuming Vapors as a 1-of or 2-of in their sideboard, have you considered running Phyrexian Metamorph instead? Same "sorcery" speed, same mana cost (Metamorph actually comes out faster if you can afford the 2 life), and it accomplishes the same primary goal of getting rid of Emrakul, Progenitus. Although Vapors can net you life and possibly net card advantage (assuming your opponent has another creature in play for Rebound to hit), Metamorph has a bit more versatility and with SFM+Batterskull running rampant, having your own "Batterskull" may not be the worst thing in attrition based games.

wcm8
06-20-2011, 01:18 PM
For those running Consuming Vapors as a 1-of or 2-of in their sideboard, have you considered running Phyrexian Metamorph instead? Same "sorcery" speed, same mana cost (Metamorph actually comes out faster if you can afford the 2 life), and it accomplishes the same primary goal of getting rid of Emrakul, Progenitus. Although Vapors can net you life and possibly net card advantage (assuming your opponent has another creature in play for Rebound to hit), Metamorph has a bit more versatility and with SFM+Batterskull running rampant, having your own "Batterskull" may not be the worst thing in attrition based games.

1. For Emrakul, I think Diabolic Edict is better. You need to answer him ASAP, if they get one swing in it's pretty much GG. And with Show and Tell he's likely coming down earlier than turn 4.
2. For Progenitus, Perish is better because you'll hit everything in RUG/Bant.
3. [edit: NVM you are correct, it can copy the artifact and give you a germ.]

Given how the new metagame is shaping up, I think there are a few sideboard cards that need to be strongly considered:
-Null Rod answers Painter Stone effectively, as well as completely hosing MUD and Affinity and other random artifact-based decks. It also has utility against any deck using Stone Forge Mystic. I would run 2-3 at your next tournament if you suspect you would see any of these decks.
-Graveyard Hate, in the form of Crypt, Relic, Spellbomb, Extirpate, or Surgical Extraction is pretty much a necessity if you expect to see Dredge or the combo decks relying on graveyard interaction (Cephalid Breakfast, Pattern of Rebirth/Hulk). I would run at the minimum 3 pieces. There was a period of time when GY hate wasn't really essential for this deck, but with the upswing of blue control decks, I'd expect to see more people opting to play Dredge and possibly other GY strategies.
-Lategame bombs such as Sower of Temptation or Consuming Vapors will make aggro matchups a bit easier to handle in addition to more standard cheap removal. Ideally you want to set up a situation where you've staved off the first wave, have a Goyf to block and a Stalker to attack. Then with your bombs you can turn a losing board position around.
-Mass removal dependent on your metagame. I've been loving Pernicious Deed because it has so much utility, but if you expect a ton of Merfolk Llawan is a great choice, and against the RUG/Bant/Zoo decks, Perish is better. 2 Slots minimum.

Arsenal
06-20-2011, 04:15 PM
But my question was re: replacing Consuming Vapors, specifically, with Phyrexian Metamorph as the majority of players run Vapors as anti-Emrakul and anti-Progenitus tech.

And as you pointed out, Perish doesn't really hit Emrakul while Edict doesn't ensure that Progenitus will die, thus, you're going to devote twice as many cards for those matchups while Metamorph answers both decks while taking up the least amount of precious SB space.

sdematt
06-20-2011, 08:34 PM
Arsenal, you should be posting back in the Rock thread, jeez :P

What did you guys think of the Hatfield article saying the TA was falling behind? I have the deck built, and I'm just wondering how to not fall behind against Aggro and dedicated Control.

-Matt

wcm8
06-20-2011, 09:02 PM
Matt, I think part of the problem is that their analysis didn't differentiate between the 'classic' tempo list (4 stalker 4 goyf and stifles) and the UBg Thresh list with Dark Confidant. The latter deck seems to struggle even more against aggro (Merfolk is still a tough matchup for both of course).

I played the stifle version and made day 2 at providence, finishing in 61st. I know I saw at least two other guys rocking the stifle build on day 2, but I didn't personally see any of the Confidant builds. I think there are metagames where the more controlling Confidant version is better, but against a big field I'd rathe be packing Tombstalker and Stifle.

wcm8
06-20-2011, 09:05 PM
But my question was re: replacing Consuming Vapors, specifically, with Phyrexian Metamorph as the majority of players run Vapors as anti-Emrakul and anti-Progenitus tech.

And as you pointed out, Perish doesn't really hit Emrakul while Edict doesn't ensure that Progenitus will die, thus, you're going to devote twice as many cards for those matchups while Metamorph answers both decks while taking up the least amount of precious SB space.

It's really hard to effectively answer every matchup with only 15 slots. I can understand your reasoning for metamorph in an unknown meta to save space, but I think it's suboptimal to the other options if you have some idea of what to expect. But I haven't really played the card enough to make a fair judgment. What does the rest of your Sb look like? And what about your main deck?

Goddik
06-20-2011, 09:29 PM
had quite alot written up about sideboarding in general and merfolk in specific. But it has all been said already so i reccomend reading a few pages back. I like to avoid narrow sideboard cards for matchups where you don't need them. TA has many matchups that are close to unloosable, focus your slots on the ones that matter, particularly merfolk, midrange, and possibly landstill.

With regards to landstill, what is people's experience with the matchup and the sideboarding on both sides? I am considering a thoughtseize, V clique package akin to that used in BUG landstill in concession to landstill and the new RUG order deck (i really want to be able to board out force against them)

then my landstill plan would be something like
-4 removal
-3 tombstalker
+2 Jace
+1 loam
+2 Seize
+2 V. Clique

Alternatively
-4 Removal
-4 Force
+2 Jace
+1 Loam
+2 Seize
+2 V.Clique
+1 Spell Pierce

The entire board would be something along the lines of
2xDeed
2xJace
2xSower
2xGhastly Demise
1xLoam
2xSeize
2xV.Clique
1xPulse
1xSpell Pierce

With the loose spots probably being the loam and the pierce.

Goddik
06-20-2011, 09:35 PM
second wcm8's comments on the hatfield analysis. Also the note on having an idea of the expected meta. The beautifull thing with Team America is that there are whole swaths of possible legacy decks that you can almost never lose to, so you get to focus your sideboard on the few matchups where you have (admittedly big) problems.

I would for example never board a single card directly against Emrakul, and i if i was to board against progenitus i would probably board vapours or perish which is usefull in the midrange matchups, or spell pierce and thoughtseize which are usefull against control.

Zamussels
06-20-2011, 10:22 PM
I played the stifle version and made day 2 at providence, finishing in 61st. I know I saw at least two other guys rocking the stifle build on day 2, but I didn't personally see any of the Confidant builds. I think there are metagames where the more controlling Confidant version is better, but against a big field I'd rathe be packing Tombstalker and Stifle.


I played the Stifle version as well at Providence and went 6-3 with 3 byes though :( I beat Junk, Team Italia and Merfolk (I'm X-0 against merfolk so far with my SB plan) I lost to Martin Juza with U/W mystic control, Mono-U control with MD Back to Basics, and burn with PoP. So I'm thinking with better matchups I could have made Day2...

I dropped the deck afterwards and started playing NO RUG but I'm thinking maybe I should come back to it... Big tournament coming up soon and I can't decide what to play!

sdematt
06-20-2011, 10:23 PM
Is it possible to have the best of both worlds? As in, running Tombstalker and Confidant? It seems really greedy, but I love both cards so much I'm having trouble choosing. Obviously I wouldn't run 4 Stalkers, but I've been running 2-3 just fine, with the rest being very similar (Wastelands, Stifles MM, no Jaces main, etc.). Thoughts?

-Matt

robojim
06-20-2011, 11:28 PM
Matt,

In testing I've found Stifle to be generally awkward in Confidant builds, mostly because of the aggro match up. If you're looking to play Confidants with more manabase disruption I'd recommend trying a 4 Bayou + 2 Basics build with Choke in the board. It is a beating in the current meta and helped me day 2 at Providence.

I prefer Terravore to Tombstalker myself but both have their merits.

Jim

catmint
06-21-2011, 04:04 AM
second wcm8's comments on the hatfield analysis. Also the note on having an idea of the expected meta. The beautifull thing with Team America is that there are whole swaths of possible legacy decks that you can almost never lose to, so you get to focus your sideboard on the few matchups where you have (admittedly big) problems.

I would for example never board a single card directly against Emrakul, and i if i was to board against progenitus i would probably board vapours or perish which is usefull in the midrange matchups, or spell pierce and thoughtseize which are usefull against control.

Which matchups would you consider unlooseable and therefore not board anything?

I understand that landstill and merfolk is a very difficult matchup, but why do you consider midrange decks a big problem? Post-board 6 removal spells for KoR + the normal disruption can get the job done...?
..or how do you define midrange (example decks...)?

Oxmo39
06-21-2011, 05:40 AM
With regards to landstill, what is people's experience with the matchup and the sideboarding on both sides? I am considering a thoughtseize, V clique package akin to that used in BUG landstill in concession to landstill and the new RUG order deck (i really want to be able to board out force against them)

then my landstill plan would be something like
-4 removal
-3 tombstalker
+2 Jace
+1 loam
+2 Seize
+2 V. Clique

Alternatively
-4 Removal
-4 Force
+2 Jace
+1 Loam
+2 Seize
+2 V.Clique
+1 Spell Pierce

The entire board would be something along the lines of
2xDeed
2xJace
2xSower
2xGhastly Demise
1xLoam
2xSeize
2xV.Clique
1xPulse
1xSpell Pierce

With the loose spots probably being the loam and the pierce.

Against those different Lansdstill versions, i bring 2 Life from the Loam and 2 Thrun.
Thrun works wonder against them : he annihilates Jace and run over their factories.
Loam allows to fight their crucible of worlds : recurring wastelands while Thrun is beating down.
I am also thinking to add 2 extirpates to deal with their low threat-density.


@maelstrom pulse : i agree with you : it sometimes shines, being an all-round answer and being a 2 for 1 in some case. but i often miss the instant speed.
i've seen some lists running putrefy. it deals with most of annoyins things we want to get rid of except for jace and humility. has anyone tested with this card or is it too narrow for this deck ?

Goddik
06-21-2011, 09:45 AM
Midrange is mostly a specific reference to the gw deck which is a very real problem. Games usually go to attrition fights that a deck packing stifle and force has a very hard time winning. Team America is naturally weak against decks that have a very unique focus, i.e. GW and merfolk both focus exclusively on laying more creatures than you have removal for. Games against the natural order bant/RUG decks can also end up like this, though they are easier to handle.

near unloosable matchups (i.e. it is possible to loose, but you should win the vast majority of the time): Most combo decks

Thopter combo (technically a control deck, but the matchup is really lopsided if you try it out)
Breakfast
ANT

High tide (used to be hard pre-misstep), painted stone (REB could be an issue here) and Hive Mind should also all be highly favourable, though they are generally much better at struggling through your hate. I find hitting brainstorms with stifle/MM at the right times is often a key part of these matchups. There are also few cards you really want to board out as your only "bad" cards are your creature removal.


As an example: The starcitygames open:

There are 7 out of the 16 decks in the last starcity games open where i would consider the maindeck good enough for me to only board stuff that is incidentally good in other matchups. Sure i usually have stuff like spell pierce, but that is for control rather than combo.

That leaves 3 hardcore control decks, 2 Fish decks, 1 NO RUG, 1 Dredge, 1 mono red and 1 metal worker deck as potential issues.

Ultimately it is a question of what you expect to have to face


@Oxmo, good comment on the Thrun's, it might just be that i have to bite the bullet and run the guy. he does what vendillion clique does in the above list, just better. It would leave me with a slot less to board in against RUG, but that should be possible.

Arsenal
06-21-2011, 09:46 AM
@ sdematt -

I love The Rock, but out of all the Hymn to Tourach decks, I feel Team America is the most "fun" for me to play. Like, there's literally no better feeling than getting into a counter war with my opponent over something, then following it up with a "Hymn you?" and seeing my opponent's face melt.

@ wcm8

My current list:

4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf

2 Go for the Throat
2 Dismember
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Stifle
4 Mental Misstep
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacomb
1 Bayou

SIDEBOARD:

3 Spell Pierce
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Perish
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Phyrexian Metamorph

Kellyx
06-21-2011, 01:30 PM
Did you think about cutting 2 daze 1 ponder 1 stiffle and adding +2 lands +2 jaces.
I will make your deck just a little slower, but will highly improve you perfomance mid-late game, imo.

sdematt
06-21-2011, 04:00 PM
That list looks pretty good, but I'd add 1 Bayou for my personal taste. I like lands.

@ Arsenal

As long as you keep posting in Rock, that's fine :)

-Matt

wcm8
06-21-2011, 04:31 PM
Why the BEB? I can't think of any red cards that are so fearsome that those two slots are necessary. Goblins can be dealt with by other means, and if you are facing dragon stompy, two blasts won't be enough to turn the match around. Perhaps Jace would be better here.

Otherwise, list looks good.

GtF
06-21-2011, 04:45 PM
Just echoing the response to hatfield's article, I think the poor performance of team america as a whole in providence is due to not distinguishing between the confidant and the "classic" list. I also played a tombstalker list and finished 63rd. I think the format was ready to handle dark confidant, and I believe those lists are even worse against merfolk and definitely worse against red aggro.
I thought stifle was bad after the tournament but now I think it is good again, since control decks are switching to ancestral visions and you can hit a pact with it vs. hive mind.
I played thoughtseize over hymn and was very happy with that decision. Also I played a jace main and I think that card is good enough to maindeck in this format now. Even against decks where it's supposed to be bad, it can still be fine, and of course pitches to force if necessary.

Arsenal
06-21-2011, 05:00 PM
Why the BEB? I can't think of any red cards that are so fearsome that those two slots are necessary. Goblins can be dealt with by other means, and if you are facing dragon stompy, two blasts won't be enough to turn the match around. Perhaps Jace would be better here.

Otherwise, list looks good.

It's primarily a concession to the two Burn decks floating around my LGS; 2 BEB backed up with 3 additional Pierce from the board is pretty decent. I see mostly Bant, Dredge, Burn, Affinity, then random UW Control-ish decks.

Koby
06-21-2011, 05:18 PM
Just echoing the response to hatfield's article, I think the poor performance of team america as a whole in providence is due to not distinguishing between the confidant and the "classic" list. I also played a tombstalker list and finished 63rd. I think the format was ready to handle dark confidant, and I believe those lists are even worse against merfolk and definitely worse against red aggro.
I thought stifle was bad after the tournament but now I think it is good again, since control decks are switching to ancestral visions and you can hit a pact with it vs. hive mind.
I played thoughtseize over hymn and was very happy with that decision. Also I played a jace main and I think that card is good enough to maindeck in this format now. Even against decks where it's supposed to be bad, it can still be fine, and of course pitches to force if necessary.

Any insight into your sideboard choices, and what worked/what didn't? Particularly on how to address both Midrange and Merfolk while still having enough tools against dedicated Control.

Kellyx
06-21-2011, 09:26 PM
It's primarily a concession to the two Burn decks floating around my LGS; 2 BEB backed up with 3 additional Pierce from the board is pretty decent. I see mostly Bant, Dredge, Burn, Affinity, then random UW Control-ish decks.
kitchen finks would do the job better

Arsenal
06-21-2011, 11:14 PM
Completely forgot that card existed. I'll take another look as those 2 BEB slots are pretty flexible and could be anything (2 of something else, or just use those 2 slots to flesh out other cards in SB).

Koby
06-21-2011, 11:17 PM
I like the Spell Pierce - those should help out a bit. I think Finks might be too slow, and not useful in other matchups as well. Divert wouldn't be a bad inclusion against RDW, and also against counter-wars.

Tombstalker
06-22-2011, 04:40 PM
First let me say that Im new to the Source and I have only been playing "competitive" legacy for approximately a year with limited exposure to the different archtypes, so please forgive my ignorance :).

I currently play a b/u tempo homebrew very similar to TA. I have tried the deck with green (basically TA) but I often found tarmagoyf to be...well, disappointing. Is it just me or do others feel this way about the goyf? Obviously tombstalker is always amazing but I have been searching for a better alternative to goyf. Right now in addition to TS I MD 2x clique and have been testing 3x nighthawk which have been...decent, and sometimes stellar.

Anyway I am now considering investing in a set of phyrexian dreadnoughts, but I am not sure how they will do. Would some of you veteran TA players mind giving me some insight as to why TA doesn't use the dreadnought in addition to, or in place of green altogether? It seems the additional reliability of the manabase would be very welcomed. Is it because of cards like QPM, MMS etc. or is the inherent card disadvantage too much strain on the deck?
I have visited the dreadstalker thread and have also read through this entire thread but I would still value your input as it pertains to the current legacy environment. Thanks in advance.

jandax
06-22-2011, 04:50 PM
Well, Stifle/Naught is a fine route to take, but you'd have to make room for that "fifth" Trickbind. And do a lot of folks run Mental Misstep where you play? Just ask yourself if what ever you are adding is worth the change in game plan, and actualy does something more than what Goyf does.

Dr.Jones
06-22-2011, 06:40 PM
I agree on Goyf being clunky especially with the rise of JaceTMS. Should be remplaced with 3 Clique in a U/B shell. Stalker is enough most of the time against aggro since missteps futhered its protection against swords, combined with hymns. The new manabase would also be much better.
End no need for dreadnought maindeck (maybe in side)

Tombstalker
06-22-2011, 09:27 PM
Jandax: yes MMS is prevailent around here. I will have to think on the gameplan as you suggest jandax, although I havent been using goyf anyway (wife has my playset anyway). Dreadnought definitely does more than goyf though as it pwns everything short of progenitus/emrakul. Any experience using PD over goyf in TA?
Dr. Jones: have you tried playing TA with only 7 creatures as you suggest? Seems too lite even for TA.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
06-22-2011, 10:58 PM
Isn't this a different deck if you switch to strictly UB with Dreadnought?

John Cox
06-22-2011, 11:37 PM
I would Strongly advise against Dreadnoughts with the amount of mental missteps running around, they're even in zoo these days. Also deed is a very strong card these days, and I think is a part of this decks success, running U/B dreadnoughts opens you up to deed hitting your dreadnoughts and removes deed from your arsenal.

wcm8
06-23-2011, 12:02 AM
Honestly, if there were a creature equivalent to goyf in blue or black, I'd drop green in a hurry. Then you could consider splashing white for swords MD or red for blasts in the SB, or just stay two colors for a stronger mana base. The problem is that there simply isn't a better Goyf.. Tarmogoyf functions as somewhat of a pseudo-removal spell by being a lethal 'wall' until you're in a position to attack. (which is often right away, but there are some matchups where he plays defense for a little before swinging in).

I'd be overjoyed if Wizards printed something like this:

Nightstalker
3BB
Creature - Demon
Delve
5/5 (or even 4/5 maybe)

But until that time comes, running green is essential. Clique and Dreadnought don't do what we need to happen.

Arsenal
06-23-2011, 12:47 AM
Having access to Green is nice out of the board for Deed and Grip (Landstill, UWx Control/Stoneblade decks, etc) too, let's not forget that.

sdematt
06-23-2011, 12:48 AM
Grip is pretty sick against Crucible, Batterskull, etc. Just thought I'd add my experience :)

Also, Team America tied with 43 Lands last night at my local Legacy. I played Maverick and lost to scrubs because I drew 8 lands in a row. In 4 games. So awkward.

-Matt

colo
06-23-2011, 06:32 AM
Having Tarmogoyf bounces by Jace sure sucks, but try that with a Tombstalker while you are at it. :p

Also, I think that green provides a lot more than just its big, dull, hallmark-ish beater. Sylvan Library and Maelstrom Pulse are, amongst others, two cards I wouldn't want to miss.

That said, if the deck wouldn't rely quite a bit on its graveyard to be able to cast Tombstalker, contemplating running W instead of G would probably have some merit. Jotun Grunt replaces Tarmogoyf well (esp. in what is a tempo deck), you gain access to the absolutely awesome Vindicate, and you also get some killer SB options as well.

GGoober
06-23-2011, 11:20 AM
Grip is pretty sick against Crucible, Batterskull, etc. Just thought I'd add my experience :)

Also, Team America tied with 43 Lands last night at my local Legacy. I played Maverick and lost to scrubs because I drew 8 lands in a row. In 4 games. So awkward.

-Matt

They were Beta duals though right? I heard Beta cards like to clump together because back in the day people played MTG with greasy hands and no sleeves.

:D


People forget how good Goyfs are when they can't cast anything. This is Goyf's function in this deck. It's the cheapest biggest easiest-to-cast dude that gets there because your opponents have little chance to play anything in the early game when you're Hymning and countering their plays.

Arsenal
06-23-2011, 12:17 PM
I think people here (and in other threads I've been reading) are discounting the fact that sometimes going "turn 2 Goyf, turn 3 Goyf" can just win on the spot. Cutting Goyf takes this path to victory away. In a deck that already is on the bleeding edge of minimum threats, why are people so eager to reduce their threats or replace threats with threats that do not serve a similar function?

Mr. Safety
06-23-2011, 12:40 PM
Having access to Green is nice out of the board for Deed and Grip (Landstill, UWx Control/Stoneblade decks, etc) too, let's not forget that.

Loam can be pretty awesome in some matchups, too. Neverending Wastelands can be a fairly awesome way to rape your opponent.

Dr.Jones
06-23-2011, 07:57 PM
People sure forget that metagames change and its counterproductive to not adapt. With the realease of NPH everybody and their mothers are running jaces, stoneforges, hiveminds and standstills... vs all of which goyf sucks and vendilion shines. I like goyf a lot but i observed that misstep and clique protect the big demon much better than before and if you know what you are doing your aggro matchup is not much affected by the swap. The manabase is a serious + also

Omega
06-24-2011, 03:07 AM
Tarmogoyf are still very good. I've finished 2nd in a very small tournament (like 30 persons) and I gotta say that Goyf are still as good as they were.

Jaces ? Well, your goal is to not let them play it too easily...
You got : 4fow, daze to force them to play around. You got Stifle + wasteland to screw their mana, and 4 hymn to further screw their hand. Sure, if Jaces hits play, it WILL bounce everything you throw at him, except if you have 2 or more creature! And that is when Tarmogoyf shine again. Unless tombstalker, you don't need XXXXX cards in graveyard to be able to cast it.

Clique : yea, these are really good. I've played 1 maindeck and wanted to have more in certain match. But the deck is already very tight on its 60/61. Not sure what to cut...

Counter :
4 force
3-4 daze - They are still very good
4 Misstep : This card is just insane. You can use it as a counterspell, or you can use it as a very aggressive tempo tool (countering Brainstorm + Ponder can set back your opponent by a lot!)
4 stifle : Probably the weakess of all the counter, Stifle can still screw opponent heavily. In mid-late game, they can also serve different purposes, such as preventing the opponent from shuffling after a Brainstorm, or gaining some tempo by disabling an ability like equip.

I don't believe we can remove anything from the counter spell
-----

Creature
4 tarmogoyf
4 tombstalker
8 seems to be the minimal amount of threats. In my list, I've played a 61st card, the 1x Vendilion clique.

Draw
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
Again, 8 seems to be the right number. SDT/Sylvan Library are nice, but not sure if the deck can play them. I'm almost sure SDT is not the right card for this deck...

Removal :
4-5 something... (smother, ghasly demise, go for the throat, malestorm pulse...) These seem to be the weakest cards of the deck. But at the same time, its always nice to have an out against the creature. Its always a good thing to have counterspells to counter their removal, key cards...
I ran 2 smother, 1 (the new -5/-5 spell, name forgotten) and 1 Engineered explosives (was useless).

4 seems to be the minimum of removal. At least, for me, I will never go below 4. You need outs against their creatures.

AggroSteve
06-24-2011, 04:17 AM
the new -5/-5 is called dismember (if i remember correctly)

that aside, i am playing 4 brainstorm, 3 ponder and 1-2 sylvan lybrarys. the librarys help a lot later in the game, i just think they are awesome
SDT on the other side would really not be the right card for this deck, even though i love that card soooooo much since it can turn games around, it would be way to much mana needed for TA to use that card right

and as removal i am running 2 Go for the Throat, 2 maelstrom puls, 1 dismember. the maelstrom pulse are extra outs against jace, and can possibly be a 2 for 1, which i like a lot

Arsenal
06-24-2011, 08:57 AM
There's nothing more satisfying than seeing my opponent smugly toss his Jace on the table, -1 to bounce my Goyf, only for me to Stifle the activated ability, then watch my opponent taste his salty tears.

I run 4 FoW, 4 Daze, 4 Mental Misstep, 4 Stifle + 4 Wasteland, and 4 Hymn to Tourach. If my opponent is resolving 4cc spells versus me, something is wrong.

sdematt
06-24-2011, 09:58 AM
Yeah, it's called "winning" :P

Is Daze not getting any love? I thought (again, I don't play this deck much) that when you're playing Stifle and Wasteland, Daze was almost an auto-include?

-Matt

GtF
06-24-2011, 02:05 PM
Any insight into your sideboard choices, and what worked/what didn't? Particularly on how to address both Midrange and Merfolk while still having enough tools against dedicated Control.

Well I did lose to merfolk the one time I played it, but I found boarding in deed + spot removal and boarding out counterspells and conditional disruption to be the best plan in testing. I found llawan to be too expensive and sometimes they have vials anyway.

As for midrange, the ultimate trump is jace the mindsculptor. Basically what happens is you disrupt each other a bunch with discard/counterspells and kill each others creatures. Then you play jace and your nonblue midrange opponent doesn't, and you start using jace's abilities to get card/board advantage and you win. Since you are becoming a better midrange deck than them postboard, I think deed could also be ok. I played submerge in Providence but now I think it is too narrow and would be better devoted to more versatile removal. You really need to be able to kill a dark confidant on sight.

I suppose dedicated control would be landstill or something? There isn't really a pure control deck in legacy besides that monoblue deck, but the plan is the same there - board out creature removal for additional disruption. I was running the 4th thoughtseize, dispel and 2 spell pierces. Jace is also good there. You might have to watch out for sower or something, which is why thoughtseize is so good imo, so you know what to do with your brainstorms/ponders.

In general, consider boarding out mental misstep if it seems as if they have few targets for it. It's not an untouchable slot by any means.



re: Tarmogoyf: The deck centers around presenting a fast clock and disrupting your opponent. Goyf is the best creature in this role because you can play it early and it is almost always big enough to tangle with your opponents creatures, live, then start killing them while you disrupt them. The deck is not built to gain complete control of the game over a long period. With the exception of resolving a jace, your opponent will likely gain control back if they are a controlling deck, given enough time. That means you need to prevent them from getting that time. Vendilion clique is a great card and probably the closest thing but not a suitable replacement because
A) Sometimes you are stifling and wastelanding, so taking a nonland card can draw them into more land which is not what you want. Not that you have to, but then you've gotten almost no value off it and
B) It doesn't hit hard enough to end the game before they take control back
C) Against aggro it is clearly worse for very obvious reasons - it can't block anything without dying.

Dreadnaught is easier to kill than tarmogoyf, despite being a 12/12, and also requires you to use two cards, which this deck can't really afford to do since it has no way to recoup the cards if they deal with the dreadnaught. I generally need my stifles to stifle my opponents cards, and barring that to pitch to force of will.

However there are some drawbacks to tarmogoyf as you've stated:
1. It's green and that is the main thing that strains the mana of this deck.
2. Goblins is basically dead and that was the deck Tarmogoyf really hosed.

So I think a UB version might be worth trying out, but without the quick clock goyf can apply, the deck would have to look very different than TA.

positivenegative
06-24-2011, 03:56 PM
I feel like this deck loses too many unessecary game 1's because of deed not being in the main. deed just deals with basically everything, and I always feel good casting it, I feel like it is never really a dead card for me.

If my main looks like this

4x Tombstalker
4x Goyf

2x V- Clique

4x Daze
4x Stifle
4x MM
4x FoW
2x Smother
1x GFtT

4x Hymn
3x Ponder

what should come out for 2x Deeds?

thanks!

Zamussels
06-24-2011, 05:58 PM
@positivenegative

I'd take out something like 1 Stifle, 1 Daze, 1 Clique, 1 Smother ... 2 of those 4 I guess. I'd probably add back the 4th Ponder too. I also play 2 Deed maindeck :)

Kellyx
06-25-2011, 02:45 AM
I just dont get ppl who dont play jace in main deck.He is just so good...

catmint
06-29-2011, 09:03 AM
How are your experiences lately playing versus BW stoneforge mystic decks?
I thought the matchup should be decent for us, but had a bad run lately. We should have good tools versus mystics with removal, stifle, counter and artifact removal like grip/maelstrom pulse. However they have such a high number of removal spells (especially post board), that i struggled to get there...

would be interested to hear your experiences and thougths!

Worm1605
06-29-2011, 03:19 PM
How are your experiences lately playing versus BW stoneforge mystic decks?
I thought the matchup should be decent for us, but had a bad run lately. We should have good tools versus mystics with removal, stifle, counter and artifact removal like grip/maelstrom pulse. However they have such a high number of removal spells (especially post board), that i struggled to get there...

would be interested to hear your experiences and thougths!

I have found there threat Density is also light for them, so I board in 2 more removal spells, 2 grips, 2 deeds, and jaces and it seems to go well for me. I also board in kira for decks that have lots of spot removal. Really just try and save your countermagic for stoneforge and jace.

Kellyx
06-29-2011, 03:31 PM
Save missteps only to counter 1cc removal.
Try to stifle ancentral vision.
2 thruns post board will be gamebreacking.
Anyway i find mystic+batterscull most broken mini-combo in legacy atm.And it shines in uw control-making it a deck without bad match ups.
Strange they banned it only in standart.

Theonlyone
07-01-2011, 06:31 AM
Does anybody still play the deck with dark confidants and terravores? What's the reason why people started to play this version of the deck?

Vandalize
07-01-2011, 04:41 PM
Save missteps only to counter 1cc removal.
Try to stifle ancentral vision.
2 thruns post board will be gamebreacking.
Anyway i find mystic+batterscull most broken mini-combo in legacy atm.And it shines in uw control-making it a deck without bad match ups.
Strange they banned it only in standart.

It's so easy to disrupt Stoneforge Mystic -> Batterskull. Even the protected ones...

Omega
07-02-2011, 02:12 AM
Just a quick question : Is this a good choice if the meta (my predictions) is going to be infested by Zoo/Merfolk (Cheapest)?

wcm8
07-02-2011, 10:29 AM
To be honest, no. Those are perhaps the two worst matchups for this deck.

This deck does well in metagames consisting of mostly control and combo. You can certainly beat those two decks, but I would personally not want to face Lord of Atlantis and Price of Progress round after round.

AggroSteve
07-02-2011, 01:01 PM
i would have a quite noob-question^^, since i am new to any kind of blue deck, i would love if someone could me describe what stifle can be used against, just the most important plays with it (aside of stifling a fetch or an opposing wasteland^^)

and when is it the best to keep mana open for stifle?

PS: sorry, but told you its a quite noob-question^^(at least for blue decks, othewise i am not that much of a noob^^)

catmint
07-03-2011, 04:08 AM
i would have a quite noob-question^^, since i am new to any kind of blue deck, i would love if someone could me describe what stifle can be used against, just the most important plays with it (aside of stifling a fetch or an opposing wasteland^^)

and when is it the best to keep mana open for stifle?

PS: sorry, but told you its a quite noob-question^^(at least for blue decks, othewise i am not that much of a noob^^)

Mostly it should be used in the early game to disrupt an opponents manabase. Sets him back while we fill our graveyard for the demon. Therefore if you are on the play and the hand has i.e: Ponder, Stifle & a 2nd land drop, I would keep the mana open. In games which likely go longer and/or stifle has a very special application, you should save it. Special applicaionts from the top of my head
- Stoneforge Mystic
- Ancestral Vision
- Hive Mind
- Gatekeeper of Malakar
- Sower of Temptation
- maybe Forgemaster

AggroSteve
07-03-2011, 04:22 AM
thanks a lot..... only thing i dot really get is ancestral visions,.... and another question,... can stifle counter the stormability of tendrills and empty the warrens, so that the stell will only be cast once and not about 10 times?

sclabman
07-03-2011, 04:32 AM
thanks a lot..... only thing i dot really get is ancestral visions,.... and another question,... can stifle counter the stormability of tendrills and empty the warrens, so that the stell will only be cast once and not about 10 times?

Yes

ivanpei
07-03-2011, 07:14 PM
Ive been fiddling with my team america list lately and I've come to love maelstrom pulse md. It's like deed but better when blind. You can drop your goyf/sylvan early and freely cast pulse later, with deed you have to play in a particular way to get the max effectiveness out of deed. I prefer deed in the board. I'm playing the 21 lands, no stifle, 2 jace, 2 snuff out, 1 gftt, 2 pulse version. I don't get why you guys are cutting snuff out. The card is really good as long as you don't draw multiples. As a 2 off, it has always performed well. Being free is really important.

The 2 jaces md IMO are my weakest slots. I'm constantly shifting between jaces and cliques as additional threats. The problem is that jace is 4cc and it's not always easy to get to 4 against a deck with wastelands. Jace is half the time force food but I think his raw power is worth it.

Arsenal
07-04-2011, 12:49 AM
I find the 1cc of Dismember able to hit Dark Confidants, Tombstalkers, and even 4/4 Germ tokens more important than being free, imo. I've rarely ever drawn a Dismember and thought "man I wish this was Snuff Out" although I have most certainly been staring at my opponent's Confidant and frowning when I'm holding my useless Snuff Out.

blaat
07-04-2011, 02:36 AM
Hi people,

Let's assume I want to play this deck (80% of the basic list) without a green or white splash.
The deck focuses more on getting your opponent in top-deck mode asap.
What all-round removal would you use for things that slip through counters and discard?
Recoil is the closest thing I could find (and fits the discard theme I use).
Of course we have the colorless things like ratched bomb, E.E, but it has to replace vindicate/pulse.
Do I miss something?

jandax
07-04-2011, 06:16 AM
So if you're running less creatures, Black Sun's Zenith was good in testing. -1/-1 counters matter, and the shuffling effect is nice. That only deals with creatures, Ratchet Bomb might be your colorless Pernicious Deed replacement. The splash goes a long way, is it really necessary to forego it?

ivanpei
07-04-2011, 09:25 AM
I don't think Team America is viable without Goyf, if you really want to go UB you should do a search for this deck called Tombstone (I think? Can't remember what it was called). The deck runs Tombstalker, Stifle-Dreadnought and Vision charm with a bunch of discard/counters + wasteland. Vision charm cheat Dreadnought into play and also protects dreadnought. You can also use it to mill yourself and play a fat Stalker. I don't think it's that great but if you can't afford to splash green, it should be an ok temporary deck.

On Snuff out VS dismember, I find that Snuff out is really good against my bad MUs like Fish and Zoo while dismember is better against my fair-good MUs like Junk and the BUG Mirror. Therefore, I like Snuff out slightly more to balance out the deck. Being able to Brainstorm/Ponder into the T1 Snuff out has been a very very strong play for me.

Tombstalker
07-04-2011, 11:05 AM
Hi people,

Let's assume I want to play this deck (80% of the basic list) without a green or white splash.
The deck focuses more on getting your opponent in top-deck mode asap.
What all-round removal would you use for things that slip through counters and discard?
Recoil is the closest thing I could find (and fits the discard theme I use).
Of course we have the colorless things like ratched bomb, E.E, but it has to replace vindicate/pulse.
Do I miss something?

This is probably the closest thing to what your looking for: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?12531-Deck-DreadStalker

Metalworker has had some recent success with this deck and I currently play variations of the deck as well. EE is pretty much the best sweeper available without access to green unfortunately, although phyrexian metamorph can be tech for many of the problems that slip through permission/disruption. Personally I love the way the deck plays with the "oops I win" factor of stiflenought, although maverick is a real bitch to play against and bant can also be rough. Overall it seems TA is a more balanced deck but I prefer the U/B shell and the rogue nature of this deck.

doggue
07-04-2011, 01:03 PM
Hi all

First of all: Please dont blame me for my bad english ;)

I'd love to go to my first legacy tournament. Because I already own lots of the more expensive cards for TA due to many years of playing vintage, I decided to run a Team America deck. I have already read articles and threads about the format and the different decks.

This is the list, that I've put together:

Maindeck:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Wasteland

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker

4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Stifle

4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Jace, the Mindsculptor

2 Go for the Throat
2 Smother
2 Engineered Explosives

A few thoughts:
-Do you think it would be reasonable to cut the Stifles for 3 Inquisition of Kozilek?
-Are 3 Jace too many? Since I own 3 of them, I just threw them into the deck.

As for the sideboard:

I really have absolutely no idea what metagame to expect. So I wanted to create a SB, which has cards to board in against the most commun decks and the problematic matchups.

Here's my (first) SB prototype:

3 Cephalid Empress (vs. Merfolk)
3 Spell Pierce (vs. Standstill / Control and Combo)
2 Pernicious Deed (vs. Dredge and Aggrodecks: Zoo, Goblins, Merfolk, Affinity....)
2 Tormods Crypt (vs.Dredge and Reanimator)
3 Consuming Vapors (vs. fatties like Emrakul or Progenitus)
2 Krosan Grip (vs. Affinity, MUD and Countertop)

I'd love to hear your thoughts to the maindeck as well as the sideboard. I'am also very interested which cards you side out against the certain matchups.

Thanks in advance and best regards

colo
07-04-2011, 03:35 PM
I found the following SB cards to be an absolute house against Landstill/slow control:

1 Bitterblossom
1 Life from the Loam
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Extirpate

I think Consuming Vapors is more than a tad too slow against NO/SnT lists. If it hits, it hits hard, but you're probably dead before it can. Don't bother boarding in Crypts for Dredge and Reanimator. If you run it (and I'd definitely recommend you do), board in Extirpate and counter whatever they're trying to do. You're Team America, you can pull that off. The most effective play a Dredge player can make is to opt to draw rather than play, and discard a dredger in his or her very first discard step. With Mental Misstep, Daze and Force, you'll just crush his spell-based attempts at filling his graveyard.

I'd strongly recommend playing a single Darkblast main, and to never board it out. Stifle is awesome - I still play a full playset, and no Jaces.

blaat
07-04-2011, 08:02 PM
Thanks for your replies.
I agree with Ivanpei that goyf has a very important role in this deck, and can't be replaced/not played.
And the green splash enables a lot of good (SB) cards.
I will test it with and without splash to confirm.

It's too bad I traded away my noughts, but I had my fun with them since the errata some years ago :)
Would be fun though to get those memories back on the table at the next GP here :)

catmint
07-08-2011, 09:02 AM
Why is your strategy versus reanimator?

In G1 I am not sure if its best to use MM versus their careful study/entomb or if I should totally focus on the reanimate spells (Problem is there are so many)...

In G2 I have access to 3 Extirpate and 1 Nihil Spellbomb, so if hate is available it is clear to let entomb/careful study resolve....

Thoughts, Experiences?

GtF
07-10-2011, 06:52 PM
I like using MM on their careful study/entombs if you don't know which they have multiples of. Especially careful study since it could let them draw into the other part they need. If you play thoughtseize it's much better because you can see what they're missing. Postboard it depends. I still like countering careful study for the reasons stated before. It's embarrassing if they get a couple guys in the yard and thoughtseize your extirpate and reanimate their other creature.

RexFTW
07-10-2011, 09:32 PM
It is possible to lose to reanimator with this deck?

Worm1605
07-11-2011, 02:17 PM
It's possible if your opponent gets the nut draw into T2 Inkwell.

I have found that boarding in Llawan can be very good as all of there threats tend to be blue except Iona and sometime Terrastadon. Jace can hopefully bounce Iona if need be, since they are forced to name black with her.

catmint
07-12-2011, 06:29 AM
It is possible to lose to reanimator with this deck?
What makes you so confident to crush reanimator? They are fast and have a lot of protection. Our primary disruption piece hymn looses value.

Thanks Worm1605: Jace is of course a good answer, but I did not think about llawan. Problem is they are 4 drops and you need something to make the game last that long so not sure if its correct bringing in both.

Since I have also 4 Gy hate spots, the question is what to bring out. I go for hymn, but I also think stifle looses value? How is your boarding strategy vs. reanimator?

Worm1605
07-13-2011, 01:53 AM
What makes you so confident to crush reanimator? They are fast and have a lot of protection. Our primary disruption piece hymn looses value.

Thanks Worm1605: Jace is of course a good answer, but I did not think about llawan. Problem is they are 4 drops and you need something to make the game last that long so not sure if its correct bringing in both.

Since I have also 4 Gy hate spots, the question is what to bring out. I go for hymn, but I also think stifle looses value? How is your boarding strategy vs. reanimator?

I only board in two Llawan if they show me Gin and Inwell. It's also probable they have Sphinx somewhere in the 75 too. What I board out usually depends on if I'm on the draw or not. My current removal suite is 2x GftT & 2x Pulse.

Draw: -4 Hymn, -1 Ponder, -1 Daze, -2 Pulse.
+2 Crypt, +1 Nihil Spellbomb (mise!), +2 Spell Peirce, +2 Llawan.

I think the hymns are to slow, and like you said, are sometimes bad against them. Ponder is at it's best when it sets up a T2 Hymn. Daze is to slow on the draw. Pulse is to slow in general, they don't play Jace, and are likely to counter it.

Play: -2 Hymn, -2 Pulse, -1 Bob/Stalker, -1 Wasteland,
+ Everything above.

Here it's all about counter magic. Slip through a Threat and counter all of there spells. Hymn sometimes gets lucky and discards there gas. Wasteland is really because they play so many basics that after game one if you get them with it, the opponent will often play around it. Sometimes I just bring in one Llawan game three, if I showed it to them game two.

I'm currently trying out a janky Bob/Clique/Jace maindeck verusion with no stifle, because I want to run Bob. If I was playing Stalker/Stifle version I would still probably board some of them out, as you are unlikely to screw them and they can run with one mana source.

Lemnear
07-13-2011, 04:17 AM
I played Bob, Clique, Jace and GftT lately instead of goofy and stalker and it was very very bad. I thougthseized, hymed, play Clique and got raced by zoo and affinity.

That's not what you want.

It's ok if your meta is pure Control and combo but it sucks hard versus random aggro. I crushed control and combo with the trinity on the Board but Zoo drops a lavamancer and all your creatures are done. You may try deed instead of the stifle but don't dare to cut your fatty beater :D

Worm1605
07-14-2011, 04:38 PM
I played Bob, Clique, Jace and GftT lately instead of goofy and stalker and it was very very bad. I thougthseized, hymed, play Clique and got raced by zoo and affinity.

That's not what you want.

It's ok if your meta is pure Control and combo but it sucks hard versus random aggro. I crushed control and combo with the trinity on the Board but Zoo drops a lavamancer and all your creatures are done. You may try deed instead of the stifle but don't dare to cut your fatty beater :D

Well without Goyf that makes sense. If you drop Goyf there is no reason to play Green and have risky mana base.

Purgatory
07-16-2011, 05:41 PM
Recently I have been testing this in my group, with great success:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
1 Vendlion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain

4 Mental Misstep
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Daze
2 Smother
2 Dismember

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou

SB:
4 Spell Pierce
3 Submerge
2 Darkblast
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Tormod's Crypt


Preordain might as well be another Bayou, but I only own one, and with so many cantrips, I don't think 19 lands has been a problem for me. I often only have two in play, but if it's Underground Sea x2 or Underground Sea and Bayou I can cast most things in the deck. I used to run a single basic Island but dropped it after getting mana flooded for the eighth or ninth time that night, and I haven't really missed it. Granted, Blood Moon is still GG, but that's the case even with the Island in the deck.

Smother > GftT, because people actually play Phyrexian Dreadnought and Painter's Servant in Sweden, and Smother deals with them, Bob, and most other things bar Tombstalker (who isn't all that common). In the end, the removal suite is of course a metagame call, and with the sheer diversity of removals available to us, it is just a question of what you need dead.

The whole set-up with 9 threats, 9 cantrips has worked very well for me, and I can't really see myself shelling out for Jaces and Bobs to play them in this deck any time soon.

Tombstalker
07-16-2011, 08:53 PM
I am a huge fan of Team America and I have been playing variations of the deck for close to a year with varying degrees of success. Recently TA dropped from DTB to Established and I am curious as to your take on why this happened.
I consider many of you here to be veteran TA/tempo players so I would like to hear insight as to why and what may be done to change this. Is it because of a general move in legacy towards aggro based strategy? Also does TA need to reevaluate some card choices previously deemed too risky or unnecessary? In particular I would like to see TA reevalute some of its core components and possibly see a revision in order to return to tier 1 status.

In particular I would be interested in some discussion (and actual recent experience if possible) with 2-3 Tombstalkers + full set of Dark Confidants in the same deck. Obviously the power of each individual card is proven and well known but so far most people have shy'd away from the risk of combining both in the same deck.

So, would a move away from other life taxing cards be enough to offset the risk of running these two together? i.e. Snuff Out, Thoughtseize, Jace due to cmc 4, etc.
For example, Snuff Out is undenyably great but paying the alternate cost of 2 Snuff Outs is equivalent to flipping a Tombstalker with bob. Thoughtseize (if you play them) could be replaced with Inquisition of Kozilek and Sylvan Library with Loam (just thinking out loud).

For my part I have currently been testing TA with 4 goyfs, 4 Dark Confidants and 3 Tombstalkers and so far it feels very powerful, yet I am not a mathematician so some figures showing the odds of flipping a stalker with bob would be nice to know (taking into account 7-8 cantrips if possible).

For my own experiences so far I can say that when bob sticks around I almost always win and my opponents always consider him a must answer threat so often times he eats removal that would of been aimed at my stalker/goyf. Bob + cantrips is just insane and he makes throwing out FoWs feel almost carefree as his CA replentishes your hand so quickly.
I think what I am trying to say is that it seems that bobs inclusion has increased the threat density of the deck by playing another 2 drop of equal power to goyf/stalker (not necessarily a threat to life total but you get the idea).
Lastly Ive noticed that more and more Eva Green players feel that the risk is warranted in exchange for the combined power the combination of these cards can bring to the table and they dont even have the luxury of 8 cantrips to set themselves up.
I am not the most articulate person so I will stop now, but please I am eager to hear your thoughts as it seems to me that TA needs to adapt to stay competitive with the latest changes in legacy.

wcm8
07-16-2011, 10:03 PM
Regarding the 'fall from grace', there are several reasons. I think it has a lot to do with players just jumping on 'trendy' decks and then expecting to duplicate previous results. Tempo-style decks, perhaps moreso than other archetypes, require a lot of skill and familiarity to do well with them. You dont really have any huge bomb cards that just win on their own; every turn counts and the 'correct' hand to keep or card to play is very matchup dependent. Compared to a relatively 'forgiving' deck like Merfolk or Bant, Team America is much harder to just pick up and play. So I think a lot of the band-wagoners may have just lost interest.

A second reason may be because I think the Dark Confidant is inferior than the Tombstalker version against an aggro field. Bob just doesn't seem quite as ridiculous in Legacy as he is in Vintage -- people actually play removal and creatures.

The final reason is that combo decks, at least in the US, are not as commonly played anymore. These were typically the best/easiest matchups for Team America.

With that said, I still have faith in the deck and think with some tweaks it can do just fine against the new metagame, with NO Rug, Merfolk, and UW Mystic being the decks to beat.

I posted this list in the UWb Esper Blade thread, but feel like it may be more appropriate here:


'Final Fantasy' (via FFVI Espers) by me:

4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tombstalker
2 Batterskull
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Daze
4 Underground Sea
2 Scrubland
2 Tundra
3 Polluted Delta
3 Marsh Flats
2 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland

[could also be -2 stp +2 vindicate/oblivion ring]

My current sideboard for the deck:
3 thoughtseize
2 perish
2 engineered explosive
2 energy flux
2 jace, TMS
2 oblivion ring/stp if o ring in main
1 relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's crypt

Basically just smashing SFM into Team America, which improves the aggro matchup quite well. TA has little to no problems against most forms of control or combo. You of course fold to a resolved Blood Moon or similar, but that is the price you pay for playing a three color tempo deck. Stifle and Thoughtseize (in the SB) is a house against other SFM decks, and just good in general right now. Perish also deals with Bant, Maverick, and NO-RUG, which were pretty difficult for the UW Stoneforge decks to deal with.

I know the list looks clunky at first glance, and the absence of Goyf may seem like heresy. But SFM really shores up matchups that were previously difficult for TA and I would urge all of you TA players to give it a try. No green means no more Goyf, Sylvan Library, Pernicious Deed, or Krosan Grip, but white can fulfill many of those card's duties. StP is just the best removal as well. Batterskull is also incredibly useful in the late game [where classic TA used to falter some], being able to replay it again and again or tossing it onto a Tombstalker for a 9/9 flying vigilant lifelinker is just nuts. A 3/4 or 4/5 for 2 just isn't as impressive as it used to be, and the lifelink is incredibly relevant in the difficult matchups like Burn and Merfolk.

GtF
07-17-2011, 02:22 PM
Heresy!
The above deck does look pretty sweet, and I've wanted to be able to play STP many a time.

As for the fall of TA, it's a cyclical thing, the deck could easily emerge as a DTB again. There's two main reasons it's worse and they both stem from mental misstep.
Like wcm8 said, combo in general has gotten worse which eliminates one of TA's best matchups. Goblins is also nearly dead which was another good matchup, at least for the classic version of the list. Without these two decks to prey on, the field in general is not as friendly matchup-wise. Stoneforge control and various midrange decks are much closer matchups and have a lot of power so the incentive to play TA over these isn't as strong. The answer to these problems involves evolving the deck, but I think it's jace and not stoneforge that's the answer. In midrange type battles against "fair" decks, jace is just the trump to end all trumps.

Anyone have any ideas besides jace on how to improve the stoneforge control or landstill matchups?

Purgatory
07-17-2011, 06:28 PM
Heresy!
The above deck does look pretty sweet, and I've wanted to be able to play STP many a time.

As for the fall of TA, it's a cyclical thing, the deck could easily emerge as a DTB again. There's two main reasons it's worse and they both stem from mental misstep.

Also, I picked it up, got the cards I was missing and started playtesting it more seriously. So naturally, it has fallen from grace. It's really uncanny how I manage to always pick the wrong deck for my local metagame, and it's happened on several occasions - I pick up Canadian Thresh -> people start playing Loam, I start playing Merfolk -> people sleeve up Zoo, I finally get the cards I need for TES -> WotC prints Mental Misstep in the very next released set.

Jokes aside, I think you are right, and I still see a lot of potential in TA. The sheer power of cards like Tombstalker/Bob, Hymn, Force of Will, Brainstorm etc. makes it one of those decks that can compete in a field of mediocre matchups if you are a competent enough pilot.

Tombstalker
07-17-2011, 10:33 PM
wcm8: Nice list and a kickass name too! I hadn't really considered something like that but it seems promising. Not sure if its really my style but splashing white over green definitely has merit vs. some of TAs bad matchups like Landstill due to plowing their factories and vialing in batterskulls :) nice.


Anyone have any ideas besides jace on how to improve the stoneforge control or landstill matchups?

RE: Landstill
Why not look at squeezing some manlands in? What Im suggesting is something like a 3/2 or 3/3 split of Wasteland and Mishra's Factory along with Life from the Loam mainboard. TA has the ability to play control, although admittedly not as well as Landstill does but manlands and Loam would both go a long way to help with Standstill, Jace and Deed which are the main problems from what Ive seen. Thoughts?

wcm8
07-17-2011, 10:57 PM
RE: Landstill
Why not look at squeezing some manlands in? What Im suggesting is something like a 3/2 or 3/3 split of Wasteland and Mishra's Factory along with Life from the Loam mainboard. TA has the ability to play control, although admittedly not as well as Landstill does but manlands and Loam would both go a long way to help with Standstill, Jace and Deed which are the main problems from what Ive seen. Thoughts?

When you start stretching the deck in too many directions, I feel like you get a weaker version of what you are borrowing the ideas from. Have you seen the UBG 'Deedstill' lists? I think this is where you should start if you want to play a more controlling version of TA, and some of those lists have sideboarded Goyf/Bobs to transition into aggro-control postboard. The idea of TA is to use tempo cards like Stifle and Daze to your advantage, and these cards aren't quite as fantastic in a dedicated control list.

Also, regarding my new Esper list, I think the maindeck is very close to ideal, though I suppose you could find some way to squeeze a few more lands and 2-3 Jace in the maindeck. But I think in a lot of matchups Jace is just not ideal, and going full-on tempo is better.

The sideboard could certainly use some work, and I think Spell Pierce may need to find its way in there. But it's a start and would need to be adjusted for your expected meta.

A slightly nice side-effect of playing SFM is that in the postboard games, your opponent needs to decide whether or not to board in hate for the Mystic/Batterskull, which is completely worthless against the rest of your deck. Before, with Goyf and Stalker, a turn 1 Relic was REALLY irritating to play against -- having two divergent threats makes it difficult for an opponent to SB against you effectively outside of just overloading on creature removal (but hey, you should be trying to use Hymn/Thoughtseize and your counterspells to ensure your threat's safety.) Just watch out for Blood Moon/Back to Basics -- we can still utilize a pre-emptive Seal of Cleansing, or just hope for a timely Spell Pierce/Daze/FoW.

catmint
07-19-2011, 05:02 AM
I also thought about replacing Green with white, but I did not test it yet.

Not sure if Stoneforge > Goyf in TA, because:
- so far we did not really care about lightning bolt
- we don't have so much W as other stoneforge lists, so wasting 1 land, could stop us from playing batterskull
- Stoneforge is more "midrangy" (setting up the fatty/sword), and TA is a tempo deck
- not sure if the G SB/MD options are better than W...close call: deed, pulse, loam, sylvan libray, krosan grip are nice cards!... especially deed > EE!

TA could definetly need some help versus Merfolk, but their dominance is taking care of by the metagame. I think Batterskull does not help TA as much as other lists versus Merfolk, because of wasteland and a T2/3 Goyf blocks earlier than batterskull. Anyway key is to keep Lord of Atlantis from the table.

Versus other Aggro matches, I don't think TA matchup is bad (I mean the classic list withoug confidant).
Versus midrange Jace is key as already mentionend and also helps versus control. The correct use of Stifle is key versus control.

I don't think running confidant and tombstalker (& Force of Will & maybe Jace) is viable on the long term. it just gives too much away to aggro decks.

I am running a list of 4 Goyf, 4 Tombstaker, 2 V-Clique. I think the clique helps in almost any matchups and provides disruption & a clock which is exactly what TA does.

Kellyx
07-20-2011, 01:10 PM
Hey, what do u think about classic TA(stalkers/goyfs/jaces) vs uw stoneblade.And vs maverick?
My meta is filled with these decks so i cant decide if i should play TA or go for something else:Z

Tombstalker
07-20-2011, 05:38 PM
Kellyx: My local meta is pretty aggro heavy and I know I have a real hard time against maverick, not sure about stoneblade.

So over the last few months I've been trying endlessly to fit bob and stalker in the same deck, but after many attempts I can honestly say those who advised against him were right he doesn't belong in TA. The draw is awesome and the life loss can usually be mitigated. The problem is the deck can't reliably close out games with less than 4 stalkers, or 4 goyfs.
Needless to say I have now come full circle back to TA. Here is my proposed list for which I would like some critique:

Lands
4 wasteland
4 underground sea
4 misty rainforest
4 verdant catacombs
1 bayou
1 forest
1 island

Creatures
4 tombstalker
4 tarmogoyf

Artifacts
2 engineered explosives

Enchantments
2 sylvan library
2 bitterblossom

Permission
4 force of will
3 mental misstep
2 daze

Disruption
4 hymn to tourach
4 stifle

Removal
2 go for the throat
2 snuff out

Cantrips
4 brainstorm
3 ponder


Some card explanations- I have been running 19 lands lately as the deck curves out at 2cc. Basics are for wasteland and keep my draw and sb cards like kgrip and loam active.
Bitterblossom is actually hypothetical at this point, the reason is I have been pretty unimpressed with clique and I have tested all other suitable replacements. 2 BB along with 2 EE, 2 library and 4 hymn give the deck a great deal of CA/virtual CA and keep my curve at 2. Until recent I had never played with more than 1 library but I absolutely love running 2, these can both be replaced with loam from the board for landstill. Speaking of landstill, I am thinking BB in the main is gonna shine and will also help with aggro. I am really looking for thoughts on these choices.
EE I chose over deed for the speed I.e split casting as well as color requirements allowing it to stay viable with my basics.
Lastly I have dropped to only 2 ponder in part due to double library compensating (think jace) and alsoadmittedly due to limited space. (Edit- added 3rd ponder for 61 cards)
So, some viable choices here or not?
Sorry for any errors, posting from my droid :)

catmint
07-20-2011, 06:13 PM
i cannot understand how you can be unimpressed by V Clique. Really shines in TA.

I love sylvan library, but it is a card that is good for longer games. Ponder can support the early game much better.

It seems that Bitterblossom does not seem to support the gameplan very well. We do not have equipments to add value to 1/1 flyers... But maybe I am wrong. Did not test it yet.

Tombstalker
07-20-2011, 08:10 PM
My main problem with clique, other than costing 1uu, is that it provides very little board presence and dies to a stiff fart. I do actually really like clique quite a bit but I'm looking for something..more.
I have used bitterblossom in several other decks and even without jitte most people consider it a must answer threat, whereas lately clique has felt more like a 3cc duress.
On second thought I think adding a 3rd ponder as the 61st card is the lesser of two evils.

Purgatory
07-21-2011, 05:30 AM
I prefer the more streamlined versions of the list (mine seem to work out well for me), and I mitigated the low threat density by adding more cantrips. Right now I play:

4 Goyf
4 Tombstalker
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain

I've also tried to go down to 19 lands (8 fetches, 4 Wasteland, 4 UGsea, 2 Trops, 1 Bayou), and it hasn't really been much of a problem when it comes to amount of mana and colours because of the many fetches and because of the cantrips. Further, playing many cantrips allows me to more reliably find the answers I need, like sideboarded cards, for example.

Playing several 2-ofs looks very unelegant to me, and especially running just two Daze seems plain wrong. Maindeck EE might be warranted in some metas, and I had them too from the beginning, but cut them eventually. Sylvan Library is a card I have yet to test properly for myself, on paper it looks really good, but I'm afraid of having it compete with more powerful two-drops in the deck (Goyf, Hymn) in practice. If it works for you, then sure. I would never play less than 4 Brainstorms, 4 Ponders in this deck anyway, despite the Libraries, since the cantrips helps find you answers quicker than Library, and it feeds the graveyard for Tombstalker.

from Cairo
07-21-2011, 06:00 AM
Kellyx: My local meta is pretty aggro heavy and I know I have a real hard time against maverick, not sure about stoneblade.

Bitterblossom is actually hypothetical at this point, the reason is I have been pretty unimpressed with clique and I have tested all other suitable replacements. 2 BB along with 2 EE, 2 library and 4 hymn give the deck a great deal of CA/virtual CA and keep my curve at 2. Until recent I had never played with more than 1 library but I absolutely love running 2, these can both be replaced with loam from the board for landstill. Speaking of landstill, I am thinking BB in the main is gonna shine and will also help with aggro.

In my experience, Bitterblossom isn't very good versus agro, especially with so little removal. It usually ends up being a slow Maze of Ith that pings you every turn. I'd drop them for the 8th cantrip and maybe a Spell Snare (another answer for Dark Confidant/SFM/Goyf) or extra piece of removal (Smother/Edict/Maelstrom Pulse).

Bitterblossom is solid versus control, but TA is favored there anyway. And I think there are better options if you wanted to pad that match up regardless - Jace TMS, Cliques, Thrun, etc.

from Cairo
07-21-2011, 06:00 AM
Kellyx: My local meta is pretty aggro heavy and I know I have a real hard time against maverick, not sure about stoneblade.

Bitterblossom is actually hypothetical at this point, the reason is I have been pretty unimpressed with clique and I have tested all other suitable replacements. 2 BB along with 2 EE, 2 library and 4 hymn give the deck a great deal of CA/virtual CA and keep my curve at 2. Until recent I had never played with more than 1 library but I absolutely love running 2, these can both be replaced with loam from the board for landstill. Speaking of landstill, I am thinking BB in the main is gonna shine and will also help with aggro.

In my experience, Bitterblossom isn't very good versus agro, especially with so little removal. It usually ends up being a slow Maze of Ith that pings you every turn. I'd drop them for the 8th cantrip and maybe a Spell Snare (another answer for Dark Confidant/SFM/Goyf) or extra piece of removal (Smother/Edict/Maelstrom Pulse).

Bitterblossom is solid versus control, but TA is favored there anyway. And I think there are better options if you wanted to pad that match up regardless - Jace TMS, Cliques, Thrun, etc.

catmint
07-21-2011, 09:43 AM
Bitterblossom is solid versus control, but TA is favored there anyway. And I think there are better options if you wanted to pad that match up regardless - Jace TMS, Cliques, Thrun, etc.

We ar not favourite against control. It is a hell of a fight and in general more like 40:60 for them. A MUC list with schackles, back to basics and energy field is very tough to beat for us!

deezy
07-21-2011, 10:09 AM
Ive been playing the deck with lorescale coatl and I like this dude alright.....I know hes a 1ug but the blue helps support the forces and this guy is sick with brainstorm,jace and is not bad with ponder either....If you run sylvan library he awesome with that also...If unanswerd quickly he becomes a gigantic ass beater...Brainstorm becomes like a permanent giant growth....Also hes not conditional on having a graveyard to cast or to beef him up......

Tombstalker
07-21-2011, 12:42 PM
Ok so I just lost everything I wrote. Heres the short version. Purgatory: try the double library you wont be disappointed. Re daze I dropped to 2 because the threat of daze is still just as good and many decks I play can out grow dazes reach pretty quickly at times. Also each daze takes up a corresponding sb slot.

Cairo: I ve always had a hard time with control. I considered jace but his 4cc messes with this deck too much imo forcing us to play more lands for those 2-3 cards and changes our wasteland timing and strategy. Not worth it imo.

blaat
07-21-2011, 05:09 PM
Will trygon predator be a good addition against stoneforge decks and others?
I agree Clique > predator, but maybe some sort of combination.

Dr.Jones
07-21-2011, 11:37 PM
Kellyx: My local meta is pretty aggro heavy and I know I have a real hard time against maverick, not sure about stoneblade.

So over the last few months I've been trying endlessly to fit bob and stalker in the same deck, but after many attempts I can honestly say those who advised against him were right he doesn't belong in TA. The draw is awesome and the life loss can usually be mitigated. The problem is the deck can't reliably close out games with less than 4 stalkers, or 4 goyfs.
Needless to say I have now come full circle back to TA. Here is my proposed list for which I would like some critique:

Lands
4 wasteland
4 underground sea
4 misty rainforest
4 verdant catacombs
1 bayou
1 forest
1 island

Creatures
4 tombstalker
4 tarmogoyf

Artifacts
2 engineered explosives

Enchantments
2 sylvan library
2 bitterblossom

Permission
4 force of will
3 mental misstep
2 daze

Disruption
4 hymn to tourach
4 stifle

Removal
2 go for the throat
2 snuff out

Cantrips
4 brainstorm
3 ponder


Some card explanations- I have been running 19 lands lately as the deck curves out at 2cc. Basics are for wasteland and keep my draw and sb cards like kgrip and loam active.
Bitterblossom is actually hypothetical at this point, the reason is I have been pretty unimpressed with clique and I have tested all other suitable replacements. 2 BB along with 2 EE, 2 library and 4 hymn give the deck a great deal of CA/virtual CA and keep my curve at 2. Until recent I had never played with more than 1 library but I absolutely love running 2, these can both be replaced with loam from the board for landstill. Speaking of landstill, I am thinking BB in the main is gonna shine and will also help with aggro. I am really looking for thoughts on these choices.
EE I chose over deed for the speed I.e split casting as well as color requirements allowing it to stay viable with my basics.
Lastly I have dropped to only 2 ponder in part due to double library compensating (think jace) and alsoadmittedly due to limited space. (Edit- added 3rd ponder for 61 cards)
So, some viable choices here or not?
Sorry for any errors, posting from my droid :)

I don't know what is the level of your game but it has to be high if you count to succeed with this deck. TA will punish your mediocre plays and like many of the authors of the comments here you may not know even why.

There is no justification to run less than 4 misstep in TA. 2 Daze is too few especially since you have 0 spell costing more than 2. Engineered explosives main?? If you want to control anything but tempo this is not the deck for.

I already said some posts ago that TA has to adapt the post misstep era with stoneforge and jace control decks all around. TA was a deck build to CRUSH control and combo decks and if you can't beat those 2 don't play this deck, zoo/burn are not what you are hunting but UW stoneforge is. So anyone who can't beat UW in regular basis is not playing this deck correctly or does not have a list suited for the actual metagame. Seriously when you play a deck with 4 Stifle, 4 Hymn, 3-4 Daze, 4 Wasteland, 4 FOW and you still lose to a Jace deck there is a problem.

I am playing an UB build with 4 stalker 2 vendilion and 2 Jace main and i have no problem beating anything that is not playing goblin guide T1. Jace never resolves vs me. Stoneforge is either countered, killed, stifled, cliqued or her equipment hymned. She is never better than squire.

Freddy
07-22-2011, 01:57 AM
TL:DR - What do you recommend in TA's sideboard in an Affinity heavy meta-game?

I'm new to the deck after getting turned on to it by some advice from people here. I've got about 20 games under my belt with a very old list on MTGO and I'm liking it very much so far.

I have been struggling with the Affinity match up though, and I'm looking to put some hate in the sideboard. Is there a consensus recommendation?

The first thing that came to mind was Energy Flux.

Should I be winning this match up anyway and it is just a case of, "doing it wrong"? If that isn't the case should I be packing Energy Flux in the board or is there something much better than I'm missing?

I've thought about Pernicious Deed but it seems like it would be too slow.

catmint
07-22-2011, 02:30 AM
Thank you for your input Dr. Jones. Can you post your list? I am interested to see how 2 jace and 2 v-clique fit into TA MD.

Concerning affinity. My favourite hate piece is Null Rod. Very effective if you also youse wasteland aggressively and MM their springleave drum. 2 deeds come in vs. affinty as well. I also play 2 pulse main to kill a plating that slipped through. From there on it is a very good matchup!

The good thing about Null Rod is that it is also prime versus Metalworker and Painted Stone..

catmint
07-22-2011, 02:30 AM
Thank you for your input Dr. Jones. Can you post your list? I am interested to see how 2 jace and 2 v-clique fit into TA MD.

Concerning affinity. My favourite hate piece is Null Rod. Very effective if you also youse wasteland aggressively and MM their springleave drum. 2 deeds come in vs. affinty as well. I also play 2 pulse main to kill a plating that slipped through. From there on it is a very good matchup!

The good thing about Null Rod is that it is also prime versus Metalworker and Painted Stone..

Dr.Jones
07-22-2011, 03:00 AM
Thank you for your input Dr. Jones. Can you post your list? I am interested to see how 2 jace and 2 v-clique fit into TA MD.

Concerning affinity. My favourite hate piece is Null Rod. Very effective if you also youse wasteland aggressively and MM their springleave drum. 2 deeds come in vs. affinty as well. I also play 2 pulse main to kill a plating that slipped through. From there on it is a very good matchup!

The good thing about Null Rod is that it is also prime versus Metalworker and Painted Stone..

sure,

4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Wasteland

4 Tombstalker
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
4 Daze
4 Stifle

4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor

2 Dismember
2 Diabolic Edict

SB

4 Leyline of the Void
3 Ghastly Demise
3 Perish
2 Thoughtseize
2 Recoil
1 JTMS

This build without Goyf is better vs Hivemind, ANT, UW Stoneforge, UW Landstill, BUGstill, Maverick, Big Zoo, NO RUG, Painter, Dragon Stompy and all mana disruptive strategies

and worse vs Fast Zoo, Burn and Affinity (all MUs where you need a T3 Goyf)

wcm8
07-22-2011, 08:36 AM
TL:DR - What do you recommend in TA's sideboard in an Affinity heavy meta-game?


If Affinity or Stax are a strong presence in your metagame, Energy Flux is the best card to beat them. Basically, unless they are able to kill you the turn after you drop Flux, Affinity will have their entire board wiped in short order since their lands are all artifacts and you just win. However, Flux is rather narrow.

Pernicious Deed is slow, but it is a complete blow-out against the decks you want to use it against. Merfolk is a tough matchup for TA and most of my post SB games against them have been won thanks to Deeding away their entire board. It also hoses Affinity, random noob aggro.dec, and outlier decks like Enchantress. I've never been disappointed with the card because it's so versatile. It needs to be backed up with cheap instant speed removal though.

You could considere stuff like Phyrexian Revoker or Pithing Needle, naming Cranial Plating, but I've never been too happy with these cards in the sideboard.

GtF
07-22-2011, 12:36 PM
Echo what wcm8 said. There's plenty of narrow cards you could play but I think Deed is overall the best option. Even playing it for 3 and activating it blows up all their lands, which could easily be enough to win. The key, as against all aggressive decks is not just to rely on deed but have enough spot removal before that to preserve your life and make them commit more to the board. I don't think null rod or energy flux are any good, they're way too narrow.
Engineered explosives is also very good against affinity.

Tombstalker
07-22-2011, 02:29 PM
I don't know what is the level of your game but it has to be high if you count to succeed with this deck. TA will punish your mediocre plays and like many of the authors of the comments here you may not know even why.

There is no justification to run less than 4 misstep in TA. 2 Daze is too few especially since you have 0 spell costing more than 2. Engineered explosives main?? If you want to control anything but tempo this is not the deck for.

I already said some posts ago that TA has to adapt the post misstep era with stoneforge and jace control decks all around. TA was a deck build to CRUSH control and combo decks and if you can't beat those 2 don't play this deck, zoo/burn are not what you are hunting but UW stoneforge is. So anyone who can't beat UW in regular basis is not playing this deck correctly or does not have a list suited for the actual metagame. Seriously when you play a deck with 4 Stifle, 4 Hymn, 3-4 Daze, 4 Wasteland, 4 FOW and you still lose to a Jace deck there is a problem.

I am playing an UB build with 4 stalker 2 vendilion and 2 Jace main and i have no problem beating anything that is not playing goblin guide T1. Jace never resolves vs me. Stoneforge is either countered, killed, stifled, cliqued or her equipment hymned. She is never better than squire.

Yes thanks for your analysis Dr.Jones. The level of my game is probably far below many of the people on this forum, which is why I am here. Hopefully my game will advance, but no need to be rude.

The list I posted above was from work and I am already questioning BB myself but since I had not seen it played or suggested recently in this thread I figured it might be worthwhile to throw it out there since it seems TA does need to adapt in some way, as your own u/b list is evidence of. Nice list btw, seems very close to dreadstalker...without the dread. I have considered edict in the main so I am curious what your experiences are with it. Also dismember seems subpar compared to other options due mostly to KotR but also for other common creatures above 5/5.

Concerning other card choices- I have always played 4 misstep. The (partially) hypothetical list I posted included only 3 because I have never tested less than 4 misstep and I have seen other tempo based decks using 3 missteps to good results. Obviously 4 Is prefereable but I had to cut something.

As for daze, your comment on cc has me seriously reconsidering including the 3rd/4th daze. Havent you encountered problems hitting 4 mana for Jace with 4 daze + wasteland/opposing wastelands?
Again there are plenty of decks that utilize only 2 and even 1 daze but you are right about my decks extremely low curve so dully noted, and thanks.

Re stoneforge: I have not really played vs. stoneblade as I previously stated, rather it is maverick and other similar aggro-midrange aggro decks that have been giving me the most problems lately. EE has proven to be very useful in these matchups as well as giving me a MB answer to artifacts, BtB and moon effects. I prefer EE over deed because deed is often slower and more strenuous at times on my mana base. Perhaps a couple maelstrom pulse could substitute though, hmmm.

Lastly I realize TA is designed to crush combo but my local meta is infested with aggro (more of a general trend in legacy it seems) and I enjoy playing this deck so I am not going to just drop my favorite deck to pick up something more suited to the environment. Rather I am going to try and adapt to it.

I look forward to more of your insight and that of others as well.

Dr.Jones
07-22-2011, 04:14 PM
Yes Jace can be hard to cast but we are not counting on him early. He is like plan B "when/if the game goes long" and should not be hesitated to pitch to a FOW early. With 8 bs/ponder there are lots of games when you lose to flood and Jace is kind of the best card to topdeck in those scenarios. He is completely synergic with the rest of the deck except for his cost and bs and fow allow that he will not be useless even early.

If you have that much aggro there and still want to play TA i suggest to up the number of maindeck creature kill to 6. Something like

20 land

4 Goyf
4 Stalker

4 BS
4 Ponder
4 Misstep
4 FOW
3 Stifle
3 Daze

4 Hymn

2 Diabolic Edict
2 Dismember
2 GFTT (include smother/ghastly demise in those combinations accordingly of what you expect)

Clown of Tresserhorn
07-23-2011, 02:10 AM
Long time Storm player here, looking for a new deck to play. I've had success with the BUG control style TA lists, but never with the original. Outside of 4 BS, 4 FoW, 4 Goyf, and 4 Stalker, I have no idea what the best build looks like. Currently, I have:

4 Sea
2 Trop
2 Bayou
10 Fetch
4 Wasteland

4 Goyf
4 Stalker
2 Clique

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder/Preordain
1 Sylvan Library

4 Force
4 Mental Misstep
3 Daze

4 Hymn to Tourach

2 Dismember
1 Go for the throat
2 Smother

I hate hate hate losing to mana screw, so I REFUSE to go below 22 lands. 3 ponder feels wrong. I want 1 more cantrips, and against popular trends, I think I prefer preordain to ponder.

thoughts?

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
07-23-2011, 05:41 AM
Long time Storm player here, looking for a new deck to play. I've had success with the BUG control style TA lists, but never with the original. Outside of 4 BS, 4 FoW, 4 Goyf, and 4 Stalker, I have no idea what the best build looks like. Currently, I have:

4 Sea
2 Trop
2 Bayou
10 Fetch
4 Wasteland

4 Goyf
4 Stalker
2 Clique

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder/Preordain
1 Sylvan Library

4 Force
4 Mental Misstep
3 Daze

4 Hymn to Tourach

2 Dismember
1 Go for the throat
2 Smother

I hate hate hate losing to mana screw, so I REFUSE to go below 22 lands. 3 ponder feels wrong. I want 1 more cantrips, and against popular trends, I think I prefer preordain to ponder.

thoughts?

If you're playing 22 land, I'd recommend playing Jace, the Mind Sculptor. There are few good reasons not to. Usually Ponder > Preordain in these decks due to cards like Sylvan Library and Jace.

Here's what I'm currently sitting at:

22 Land
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland

8 Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker

30 Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Daze
2 Ponder
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Snuff Out
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Sylvan Library

15 Sideboard
3 Spell Pierce
3 Extirpate
2 Pithing Needle
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Null Rod
1 Krosan Grip
1 Darkblast
1 Ghastly Demise

SpeakingofJager
07-24-2011, 01:55 AM
First post, been playing the deck for about 3 - 4 months and just wanted to let y'all know I just placed 5th at Jupiter's latest NELC qualifier (90 people). I could of done better if i wasn't a bad player.

I ended up going 5-0-2, taking two IDs to draw into top 8. Unfortunately, lack of play experience with Batterskull, exhaustion, and generally just makin bad plays helped me hand my opponnet the match in the semis. I basically decided Thursday I would try SFM over goyf, and well I love it. I just wish i had had more time to practice playing with batterskull

The List
Lands 20
4 Polluted Delta
3 Marsh Flats
2 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Scrubland
2 Tundra
4 Wasteland

Creatures 9
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tombstalker
2 Vendilion Clique

Spells 29
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares

Artifacts 2
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard 15
2 Perish
2 Extripate
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Vindicate
2 Snuff Out
3 Engineered Plague


What i played in match order, i'm not sure what some of these decks are called, just the general concepts
1) Hivemind (2-1)
- Was handed game one when my opponent forgot to pay for his pact of negation
- Lost game 2 quickly
- Game 3 he mulled to 5 and payed for it. I ended up dazing his turn one monolith,
wasting the tomb he used for it and the stifled / vindicated the rest of his lands
away
2) NO Bant (2-0)
- Game 1, Triple stifle on his fetches ended this one quickly
- Game 2 he mulls to 5 gets no lands, game over
3) ANT (2-0)
- Game 1 he fizzles on the kill and V clique seals the deal
- Game 2, stifle his tendrils storm trigger and extripate it, removing his only win con
4) UW SFM with standstill (2-0)
- This was a feature match (http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/16202812)
- Vindicate and stifle dominated
5) Merfolk
- This is the first match where i actually noticed a difference with the SFM.
Batterskull and sword just won it, both games in a row.
Semis - No excuses, i played bad. But in my defense, it was my first top 8. Between
exhaustion and just not being familiar with batterskull, i lost. I'm still a baddie xD
- Feature match (http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/16202812) (Constructive criticism welcome, I was awful)

Purgatory
07-24-2011, 05:35 PM
What do you think about going W over G? In my experience, whenever I've played StP in tempo-oriented decks (NH), it prevents me from closing games soon enough if I don't get any big dudes on the field, and Tarmogoyf sometimes isn't big enough if you have to Plow more than one creature.

Also, what about including more control-ish cards in the list? Like Bob or Jace?

EDIT: Oh, and congrats on the result :)

SpeakingofJager
07-24-2011, 06:11 PM
Honestly, it felt identical. The white didnt make an impact until i played Merfolk, and it was huge there. I went from a 2 Snuff out / 1 Dismember / 1 Darkblast package to 4 StP and it felt wonderful. I put snuff out and vindicate in the board in stead of PtE simply because giving my opponent lands is counter productive to the LD direction some matches take. And vindicate was just a champion all day, bieng able to hit basic lands feels pretty good.

Aside from that, I just wish i had played with batterskull before. In the semi's I lost because of inexperience with the card (i forgot i could bounce it). As for sealing the deal, stalker with a sword of fire and ice feels so good it has to be dirty

And on Jace / Bob: I did a direct transfer from my old TA list to this esper build. I cut 4 tarms, 1 tombstalker and 1 ponder to make room for the 4 SFM + equips. I've never liked the Jace / Bob build and feel like it wouldn't work well with my current list. The equipments gain more value when all of my beaters (except SFM) can just over head the opponent

Kellyx
07-25-2011, 08:03 PM
Guyes, i have some real problems vs uw stonestill and ubg still.Mostly vs uw of course(in mtgo its most popular and mainstream deck atm).
So i want to make some main deck changes in my classic TA list (goyf stalkers 2 jaces and etc).
Like playing thrun or life from the loam in main deck or so:Z.
Any ideas?

lordofthepit
07-26-2011, 01:16 AM
Zoo player checking in here.

Yesterday, I played at SCG Seattle and noticed a stunning lack of Merfolk (didn't see one at all), Zoo, and Landstill variants, which I understand are traditionally bad matchups for Team America. On the flip side, there was quite a bit of Hive Mind and Natural Order combo, which I presume are good matchups?

If that's the case, and the metagame looks similar proceeding forward, is it time for Team America to rise to the forefront again? What are other metagame forces that would hinder Team America's ascent?

rancOr_
07-26-2011, 06:52 AM
Yes. Bad MU's for TA are Zoo(mana denial plan works), Goblins and most importantly Merfolk(for the list without white). Although I can see it being very good in a more combo oriented meta like Hive Mind,NO rug,Ant/Tes,..
If you're having trouble against UWstoneblade/landstill you should play Lftl either maindeck or SB and a 1-2 Thrun in the board. It has won me many games. Also playing stifle helps alot in these MU's. For the BUG version one offs like sylvan library/pernicious deed can help respectively in the Landstill/UW stoneblade MU.
When I last played BUG it had 1darkblast,1sylvan library and 1 P deed MD and it was awesome. Darkblast is really good right now..

GGoober
07-27-2011, 10:34 AM
First post, been playing the deck for about 3 - 4 months and just wanted to let y'all know I just placed 5th at Jupiter's latest NELC qualifier (90 people). I could of done better if i wasn't a bad player.

I ended up going 5-0-2, taking two IDs to draw into top 8. Unfortunately, lack of play experience with Batterskull, exhaustion, and generally just makin bad plays helped me hand my opponnet the match in the semis. I basically decided Thursday I would try SFM over goyf, and well I love it. I just wish i had had more time to practice playing with batterskull

The List
Lands 20
4 Polluted Delta
3 Marsh Flats
2 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Scrubland
2 Tundra
4 Wasteland

Creatures 9
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tombstalker
2 Vendilion Clique

Spells 29
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares

Artifacts 2
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard 15
2 Perish
2 Extripate
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Vindicate
2 Snuff Out
3 Engineered Plague


What i played in match order, i'm not sure what some of these decks are called, just the general concepts
1) Hivemind (2-1)
- Was handed game one when my opponent forgot to pay for his pact of negation
- Lost game 2 quickly
- Game 3 he mulled to 5 and payed for it. I ended up dazing his turn one monolith,
wasting the tomb he used for it and the stifled / vindicated the rest of his lands
away
2) NO Bant (2-0)
- Game 1, Triple stifle on his fetches ended this one quickly
- Game 2 he mulls to 5 gets no lands, game over
3) ANT (2-0)
- Game 1 he fizzles on the kill and V clique seals the deal
- Game 2, stifle his tendrils storm trigger and extripate it, removing his only win con
4) UW SFM with standstill (2-0)
- This was a feature match (http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/16202812)
- Vindicate and stifle dominated
5) Merfolk
- This is the first match where i actually noticed a difference with the SFM.
Batterskull and sword just won it, both games in a row.
Semis - No excuses, i played bad. But in my defense, it was my first top 8. Between
exhaustion and just not being familiar with batterskull, i lost. I'm still a baddie xD
- Feature match (http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/16202812) (Constructive criticism welcome, I was awful)

I really like the list!

I'll take it for a spin. I feel white for StP/Vindicate/SFM is argubly on-par if not stronger than green for Deed/Goyf/Grips/Library considering that SFM package will now shore up the difficult Merfolk matchup.

Have you considered Aven Mindcensor for this deck in the SB/MD? I am not fond of Mindcensor in non-Bant decks due to the slow casting cost and not being relevant in catching your opponents off guard after turn 3. However, in a tempo deck like TA, you can stifle/waste/daze the early turns, and further extend that disruption with Mindcensor. I haven't tested it, but I can imagine early game Stifles/wastes and landing yet another mindcensor in response to another of their fetch is going to set them back so behind it's not even funny.

The nice thing with your build with Mindcensor is that SFM can slap a Sword on any of your 2/1, 3/1 flyers and start getting there.

SpeakingofJager
07-27-2011, 03:05 PM
Uhm, to be honest, Mindcensor feels a bit unnecessary. I've been trying to find room for the 4th tomb stalker but just can't find it. With all of the other disruption, finding room for it just doesnt seem feasible to me. I'm having a hard enough time tryin to find room for a 4th tombstalker.

As for slapping equips on creatures, tombstalker with a sword in hand is just so much fun.

lordofthepit
07-27-2011, 05:24 PM
I really like the list!

I'll take it for a spin. I feel white for StP/Vindicate/SFM is argubly on-par if not stronger than green for Deed/Goyf/Grips/Library considering that SFM package will now shore up the difficult Merfolk matchup.

Have you considered Aven Mindcensor for this deck in the SB/MD? I am not fond of Mindcensor in non-Bant decks due to the slow casting cost and not being relevant in catching your opponents off guard after turn 3. However, in a tempo deck like TA, you can stifle/waste/daze the early turns, and further extend that disruption with Mindcensor. I haven't tested it, but I can imagine early game Stifles/wastes and landing yet another mindcensor in response to another of their fetch is going to set them back so behind it's not even funny.

The nice thing with your build with Mindcensor is that SFM can slap a Sword on any of your 2/1, 3/1 flyers and start getting there.

I was looking at this list and feeling pretty excited about it. One thing I was a bit worried about was that replacing Goyfs with the Stoneforge package is a huge downgrade against combo decks like Hive Mind, and for that reason, I was also wondering what other creatures/win conditions I could replace them with in the sideboard.

I was considering Dark Confidant (flipping a Tombstalker is no big deal against Hive Mind, but probably a dead card in a lot of matchups), Hypnotic Specter (excellent against Hive Mind and Storm, but a little underpowered today), Tidehollow Sculler (low impact, weak clock), Jace (good against Storm but a bit slow against Hive Mind), Meddling Mage (pretty mediocre), and Aven Mindcensor (which I've never personally tried, but can possibly win against Storm, Hive Mind, and NO UGx, although SFM is even better against Natural Order).

SpeakingofJager
07-27-2011, 06:10 PM
If you're worried about Hive mind, add counters to the SB in lieu of removal. I honestly feel like its that bad of a match up, Stifle can wreck them if they play poorly

lordofthepit
07-27-2011, 07:05 PM
If you're worried about Hive mind, add counters to the SB in lieu of removal. I honestly feel like its that bad of a match up, Stifle can wreck them if they play poorly

It's not so much that I'm worried, but dropping Stoneforge into Batterskull to get a 4/4 with no relevant abilities seems pretty slow against them. But on the other hand, I can't really board it out, because that leaves the deck with only 5 win conditions that take 4-7 turns (3 Tombstalker, 2 Clique).

The rest of the deck (besides Swords) is a nightmare for them though.

SpeakingofJager
07-27-2011, 07:15 PM
Beat them by keeping all of your stifles in hand. If they go for the hivemind strategy, just stifle the upkeep ability, they lose on their turn. If they go for the emrakul plan, you need the stifles to stop the annihilator and race with your beaters. In that situation, the life link is huge

lordofthepit
07-27-2011, 08:17 PM
Beat them by keeping all of your stifles in hand. If they go for the hivemind strategy, just stifle the upkeep ability, they lose on their turn. If they go for the emrakul plan, you need the stifles to stop the annihilator and race with your beaters. In that situation, the life link is huge

Has the matchup been very favorable for you? I imagine that UBg Team America crushes it, which is why I'm gravitating in this direction as long as Hive Mind and NO RUG are prominent (otherwise my pet decks are Zoo and Tendrils storm). It looks to me like your white splash sacrifices a decent amount in this matchup but gains a lot against aggro and control, which is why it seems pretty appealing to me; but I still want to make sure that it crushes the matchups that it's supposed to! ;-)

As far as having lifelink to race Emrakul, that seems only useful if they're able to swing twice into you, because 15 damage shouldn't be enough to get you without Bob, Thoughtseize, Snuff Out, or Dismember (obviously, in very rare cases, they might also tack on 4 from a Titan token). However, if the annihilator trigger resolves once in either swing, you're essentially dead (which is another reason stifle is great!).

I completely buy that it's possible to race one Emrakul swing by Stifling the annihilator trigger once, taking the 15, and then counterswinging for the win. In that case, lifelink doesn't even play a role. Lifelink might play a role when they're able to swing you for 30, in which case, you're probably dead anyway unless you have two stifles (and were able to somehow already deal 10 lifelinked damage). That seems like a really narrow case!

If your argument is that the rest of the deck is strong enough against Hive Mind and other combo decks, and that those extra sideboard slots are better devoted to your weaker matchups, I completely understand leaving them out. Just questioning whether that's indeed the case.

SpeakingofJager
07-27-2011, 08:37 PM
I guess I am saying the deck can stand for itself against most combo, its how I went for it.

I honestly feel like the main deck is strong enough to stop combo decks. I tend to side in vindicate and extirpate over swords, just to have no completely dead cards. Hivemind isnt exactly favorable, but i dont feel like the BUG variant was highly favored either. I feel like the list i presented is about 50/50, but I have no proof from that other than having played the deck a few times. If you're a good pilot, it'll be less of a grind.

As for no RUG, I love playing against that deck. The current board brings in 4 spot removal and 2 perish bringing spot removal to 10 and i remove stifle / daze for that. With that much removal and the counters, its a pretty fun match.

catmint
07-28-2011, 07:39 AM
I tested a the white version a little bit and got mixed results so far.

What I noticed:
Of course once the batterskull is out there it is great and it helped in some situations where a Goyf would not have been that good. However, it pretty slow and mana intensive. So far if we play a goyf, it is not that important if the green source is wasted. Now, wasting the white source hurts a lot and makes us more vulnerable to wasteland. It is also really annoying that a simple burn spell has to be countered if we want to get something out of our SFM play.

I also found that I want to do something else instead of dropping the batterskull (like pondering to find a hymn or stifle/wastelanding/dazing, which is often not possible if you need the 2 mana to drop the batterskull.

I also played 3 matches versus GW Maverick and it is still very hard to win (Lost all 3 after a very tough fight 2:1 . Deed > Perish in this matchup, because the annoying mother of runes, SFM & equipments are not hit by Perish.

Played twice versus hive mind and my use of SFM was Sword of Fire and Ice to at least draw more cards. However, if the clock is slow Hive mand can easily wait for 6+ mana and 2-3 counters or multiple pacts (so 1 stifle is not enough). In this kind of situations multiple SFM suck just soo bad.
you also don’t want a second goyf, but at least that’s a faster clock.

SFM/Batterskull is also not that good as it was before, because people bring more answers. Also if the germ dies it is slow/conditional to bring him back. In a control deck that plans to have 5 mana and to stop the opponent that does not matter that much. In TA where we want to win through a dominating early game it is not so powerful to return and replay the Batterskull.

Another disadvantage I see is that SFM is not an aggro play. The clock is much slower and again multiples are usually bad. With goyf we can just be the aggro deck…

Of course Perish is good versus the DTB NO RUG, but is much more narrow and cannot be used against goblins, affinity, merfolk and other random stuff.

So my conclusion: White TA is not that good as the classic version, because it does not support the initial Gameplan that well (has antisynergy with tempo plan) and the sideboard options are not that good.

catmint
07-28-2011, 07:41 AM
1 more comment to the Stifle Plan versus Hive mind. Smart opponents will try to go for Emrakul first, so I would only have the stifle as a bakcup plan and fight for the show and tell as much as you can!

Kellyx
07-28-2011, 03:37 PM
1 more comment to the Stifle Plan versus Hive mind. Smart opponents will try to go for Emrakul first, so I would only have the stifle as a bakcup plan and fight for the show and tell as much as you can!

qft