[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread) [Archive] - Page 7

Kellyx

07-28-2011, 03:49 PM

4 underground sea
2 tropical island
1 bayou
4 verdant catacombs
4 misty rainforest
3 polluted delta
4 wasteland
-
4 brainstorm
3 ponder
2 jace, the mind sculptor
2 snuff out
1 go for the throat
1 dark blast
4 force of will
4 mental misstep
3 daze
2 stifle
4 hymn to tourach
_
4 tarmogoyf
4 tombstalker
side:
2 diablic edict(NO RUG/agro decks)
2 ghastly demise(agro decks)
2 duress(combo/control)
3 krosan grip(equipment killer+random artifact hate)
2 extirpate (grave hate/helps vs combo)
1 tormod's crypt (grave hate)
2 thrun, the last troll (vs uw stonestill/ubg still)
1 life from the loam (vs landstills/agro loams)

So that is im playing right now.My meta is mostly uw stonestill, no rug, hive mind.
Obviously a real pain are uw stonestills.My deck got only 8 threats, they can easily deal with (removal/counterspells).And if they get batterskull into play i need at least 2 creatures in play to deal with it.
Any ideas what to fix here?Personaly im thinking about adding Kira and Trygon predator main deck, just dont know what to remove=/

Goddik

07-29-2011, 06:34 PM

from Cairo

07-29-2011, 09:29 PM

anyone American feel like picking up ye olde stifles and punishing all those annoying hive mind decks at the starcitygames. Meta currently is almost without merfolk and even U/W landstill is on the retreat.

As for landstill testing, might i suggest cutting the hymns and replacing them with some mix of thoughtseize, spell pierce and spell snare. Do keep the stifles though, they combine with daze to give you daze protection.

I'll agree Spell Snare and Stifle are looking really solid at the moment. especially in conjunction where you have 6-8 Turn 1 instants - some of which are better on the play and others on the draw.

Tombstalker

08-05-2011, 02:16 PM

Would some of you more experienced TA players mind giving some advice on the Ubgx Landstill matchup? I have been having some problems with this matchup and I wanted to know if there is something I could do to improve it G1. Heres my list for reference:

Team America (60)

Creatures 8
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker

Enchantments 2
2 Sylvan Library

Permission 15
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
4 Stifle
3 Daze

Disruption 4
4 Hymn to Tourach

Cantrips 7
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

Removal 5
2 Snuff Out
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Go for the Throat

Lands 19
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp

Side Board 15
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Life from the Loam
1 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Perish
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Engineered Explosives

Also heres a question, if they land a standstill on an empty board G1 with no factories in play and I am holding a wasteland among other things (lets say we each have several cards in hand) would it be advisable to try and wait them out?

For example, should I try "draw-go" multiple times and then break the standstill at the beginning of their end step once we both reach 6-7 cards to mitigate the card advantage over me?

This situation has come up multiple times and the only other decent alternative I can find is to cast hymn or perhaps library and pay some life, but lets assume here that I dont have either of these. Is there another option I am not seeing here?

Spike

08-05-2011, 06:38 PM

Your list should be pretty good against Ubx-Landstill preboard. I wouldn't change anything here besides playing Dismember instead of Snuff Out but that's just personal preference. All you have to do is playing a bit more defensive against this deck and Hymn them a few times before you cast one of your creatures.

Regarding your sideboard i strongly recommend you to play at least two Jace, the Mind Sculptor and perhaps one Life from the Loam. They are both very good against Ubx-Landstill and can help you in so many other matchups.

By the way... Why are you playing Relic of Progenitus in your Sideboard? I don't think it's a good idea to play this card in TA.

Regarding Standstill: It's almost always better to wait a few turns till they reach 7-8 cards. All you have to do is casting a Brainstorm eot and they'll have to discard four cards. It's really easy to play against Standstill, just don't get out of patience. If you cast a spell during your turn they'll get full value out of their Standstill.

Tombstalker

08-05-2011, 07:50 PM

Spike- Honestly I hadnt even considered Dismember but I suppose it does have its merits vs. bob/stalker, I do really like the tempo of Snuff Out though so I will probably stick with that for now.
I am actually trying to fit loam in as we speak and I have an unhealthy hate of jace TMS but I suppose I could rethink that...a little :)
As for Relic I have found the slow grind ability to be excellent. I would probably even play 2 except that 2 potential exile grave effects may be too much for this deck at times. That and crypt lets me diversify while also dodging daze and misstep.
Thanks for the tips with Standstill, it seems like I am on the right track but for whatever reason that deck always gives me problems.

RogueMTG

08-08-2011, 11:13 AM

..Standstill Questions...

Unfortunately there is no one great answer to playing against Standstill. It depends a lot on what you have in hand, and how spent their current hand is already.

If you have no way to apply pressure (and are under no pressure) it is mostly correct to wait it out until you're both at 7 cards, then break it EOT with a Brainstorm so you end up with more cards than them. Unfortunately while you have mitigated the card advantage, you are still left in the situation of being in turn 5 or 6 against a late game oriented deck with a full grip, but it's often better than being mid-game down 3-4 cards.

There are situations though, where you have a threat you can drop, along with the ability to keep them on the back-foot at 1 or 2 lands. In these situations it can be right to break the Standstill in order to keep your tempo plan alive, and just not let them get into the late game.

xfxf

08-09-2011, 04:59 AM

How do you guys think Team America stands in today's metagame. Hive Mind decks are on the rise and are good preys for Team America. Plus Zoo decks see a lot of play and are strong against Merfolk, this could also lead to a diminish in Merfolk decks.

I was aldo wondering why don't people play Dark Confidants in Team America. Seems like it could use the card advantage combined with Jaces.

Tombstalker

08-09-2011, 10:48 AM

Some versions of TA do play bob, usually in place of Tombstalker although a few still keep stalker in as a 2of. This entire thread is full of that question every few pages Lol. Most people have come to the conclusion that bob lists are more dark thresh oriented since he dictates more than a few changes in your list and doesnt jive well with FoW, Snuff Out, Tombstalker, Jace, etc. On top of those drawbacks he also doesnt provide any sort of relevant clock. Personally I have tried lists with confidant and even some that also included tombstalker + confidant and while these lists do seem to functon reasonably well, they just arent the same as the ones with the traditional creature suite.
I recently came around to the sad fact that confidant just doesnt fit here in TA. If you really want more card advantage you can always up your count of Sylvan Library as I did. That card is simply amazing and more survivable than confidant.

Worm1605

08-09-2011, 06:43 PM

In regards to Landstill there are a couple of cards that can work wonders. One is Thrun out of the board. He comes and goes week to week for me, but if you can manage to get the the mana on line for him they have a very difficult time dealing with him.

Another card I have been playing main deck and has been doing wonders for me is Vendellion Clique. With the meta how it is, I do not think there is any reason to not run him main. Try cutting a removal spell, a library, and/or a Tombstalker for a couple. He's very good in response to a Staindstill, Show and Tell, and after a resolved Stoneforge. He even has splash damage against aggro, being able to flash in and block, I was unimpressed with him 3 months ago, but right now he is an all star.

I don't know if your running basics because of affordability issues, but having all the duals is quite necessary. If you are running basics to avoid hate like Blood Moon, I would run an island since you can cantrip into the answer you need. I understand what you have lets you cast pulse under a moon effect and avoid Lord of Atlantis, it just seems quite loose to me.

I also agree with not running Relic in this deck. Try out spell bomb, it has built in tempo!

Just my 2 cents

Tombstalker

08-10-2011, 11:33 AM

blaat

08-11-2011, 04:08 AM

I'm also thinking about the addition of a few basics.
Especially a Forest when using Thrun SB.

I don't know if your running basics because of affordability issues, but having all the duals is quite necessary. If you are running basics to avoid hate like Blood Moon, I would run an island since you can cantrip into the answer you need.

I don't get it. You cantrip in something you still can't cast?
Unless it's magus of the moon and you can actually find you 1-off dismember in your 60 of course.

Also you get some benefits like Tombstalker said (path to exile finds you a land actually).

Purgatory

08-13-2011, 07:58 AM

Going to a tournament in a couple of weeks, and Team America is one of the options I have been playing a lot lately, and it's certainly one of the decks I consider bringing. Here's my current list:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain

4 Mental Misstep
4 Stifle
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Smother
2 Dismember

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou

SB:
4 Spell Pierce
3 Submerge
2 Darkblast
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Tormod's Crypt

Overall, it feels pretty solid. There are really only two flex slots in the maindeck, the Clique (who have been so-so in some matches and Tombstalker #5 in others) and the Preordain (which has really only served as a placeholder for other action cards). I might swap either of them for Daze #4, and I would like to have a 20th land in there, a Bayou to be specific, if I can get my hands on one.

The sideboard is okay as well, I might try to fit two Jaces in there, instead of 1 Spell Pierce and the Trap.

From what other regulars play, it is extremely difficult to predict what will show up, since there are many comitted Legacy players in the area with large cards pools, and everyone in my play group (who will show up) has enough cards to build at least three or four decks. Therefor, I am assuming an unknown meta regarding the sideboard.

Tombstalker

08-13-2011, 11:48 AM

Purgatory- I really like your list! Whats your experience with Dismember as opposed to Snuff Out?
Also how useful have you found Submerge from the board? I could see this as a 1-2 of but 3 seems like too many slots to use up, or am I missing something? Id say the same goes for Spell Pierce.

With NOpro and Emrakul being so popular lately I would consider squeezing in a pair of Diabolic Edicts and maybe a Perish as well. I also like Phyrexian Metamorph for these matchups and it doubles as an out against most of Reanimators targets.

lastly I havent used Preordain in TA but as the 9th cantrip it really seems like a card you could cut for a 5th removal (I like Maelstrom Pulse) or a Sylvan Library. Just a thought.

On another note Ive recently been running Life from the Loam in my board and it hasnt really been as good as expected, mostly because its too clunky for us. Im actually considering swapping it out for a 1-of Beast Within. Beast Within has potential as a catch all, I believe, and would give me 2 SB answers to Iona on black. Anyone tried this card out from the side?

Purgatory

08-13-2011, 01:06 PM

I could try to squeeze in a couple of Edicts in there, good suggestion. However, in my experience against NO RUG, for example, I just board in Darkblast and nail their manlands and mana dorks and they have a tough time reaching 2GG, let alone resolve a Natural Order. In fact, Darkblast has been a real house against some decks.

I like Dismember a lot, though the choice of removal suite is up to personal preference, imo. I haven't considered Metamorph at all, that's another option to test then :)

Thanks for your feedback.

Tombstalker

08-13-2011, 02:24 PM

I used to run Darkblast maindeck and when it was good it was simply amazing but every now and again it cost me a game when I wished it was a full removal so I finally ended up dropping it. Darkblast is house against NO RUG though since it kills almost every creature they run sans progenitus/goyf. Im glad youve had good success keeping them from NO and thats probably due to multiple Darkblasts. Personally though I havent had much luck with mana denial against them so I board in at least 5 answers to Progenitus just in case :)

I would definitely look to fit a couple non-target removal though because in addition to progenitus and emrakul cards like thrun, kira, mirran crusader, inkwell leviathan etc can be a real pain. Anyway good luck to you.

Zamussels

08-14-2011, 10:57 PM

Thinking of bringing this deck to the next scg tournament. However with all the aggro in the Richmond top8 could this deck be a good choice? If people play combo to beat the aggro it will be awesome but if everyone goes aggro.. :(

GtF

08-14-2011, 11:55 PM

You know what answers iona on black real good? Jace.

I played maelstrom pulse in the legacy champs because I was paranoid about jace but I hated it all day. I think either a v. clique or just another removal spell would be better. Diabolic edict is pretty good. If you're not playing 4 daze I think you should be. That card is as good as it's ever been. Darkblast is still sick, not quite good enough to maindeck but I think it's getting pretty close.

If you're worried about aggro, probably just devote more SB space to it. I usually have 5 -8 slots in my board for aggro decks, that seems to do them pretty good. I assume by aggro you mean zoo or merfolk.

xfxf

08-15-2011, 04:26 AM

xfxf

08-15-2011, 04:26 AM

Purgatory

08-15-2011, 05:48 AM

@Purgatory

I've been testing a list very similar to yours after deciding on the classical build. My main changes are 2 Jaces instead of your 2 one-ofs and I replace 1 Stifle with one more Fetchland.

If I can't close the deal in the early to mid game Jace is very good. If I'm already on a roll in the early game and have a Jace in hand I can use it as FoW fodder or can shuffle it into the deck with Brainstorms. I however don't feel 20 lands is the right number to support Jace but the list is quite tight to make room for much change at this point.

I've been meaning to test him in the deck but I haven't because I don't have any Jaces, nor do I have a hundred bucks to toss on him before the tournament. I might include him if I can borrow a couple from a friend (which isn't that unlikely). Good suggestion.

xfxf

08-15-2011, 07:22 AM

Oh, I don't have Jaces either, I'm using proxies :)

The Team America list from US Nationals Legacy leg is very close to this build too. It too runs two Jaces with 20 lands. Instead of Hymns he went for Thoughtseize but I think we are on the right path :)

Rust

08-15-2011, 11:53 PM

Hey guys,

I'm a long time watcher of this forum and a first time poster! I wanted to post the team america deck that I am using for critique. So without further ado:

Manabase:
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical island
1 Bayou
1 Island

Creatures:
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
2 Vendilion Clique

counters:
4 Mental Misstep
4 Force of Will
2 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
2 stifle

Removal/Hand disruption:
2 Thoughtseize
2 Smother
3 Dismember

Card draw:
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Thank you in advance.

AggroSteve

08-16-2011, 09:08 AM

why thoughtseize over hymn? and why only 2 thoughtseize?

how is spell pierce in the main doing? and what does your sideboard look like

i am not that big of a fan of jace TMS in this deck (probably because i do not own them^^), neither main nor sideboard

Tombstalker

08-16-2011, 06:05 PM

Rust- I would look to add at least one more each of daze/stifle/thoughtseize before running Spell Pierce in the main.
There are a couple of camps on JTMS but I think all would agree that you probably need more than 20 lands for him. I suppose this may be the reason your only running 2 daze + pierces, no?
I used to skimp on daze too but honestly with wasteland and stifle in your deck daze should really be a 3-4 of.

AggroSteve

08-16-2011, 07:25 PM

i have to agree that daze is a house in this deck

when i first picked up this deck, as my first blue deck, i really didn't like daze, but only because i was not used to how is best using this card

at the moment i am running 2/2 split between spell snare and daze, but am thinking of going to the full playset of daze again, since i feel like it i much better

lately i even got an awesome hand with 2 hymn to tourach and 2 daze, and that really wrecked my opponent completely as tombstalker finished the job quite fast with force-protection
so i would always go force, daze, misstep as the only counters, and allways hymn over thouhtseize with this configuration of counter

if you prefer thoughtseize i would play the full set as well, and in that case i could see spell snare being superior to daze, but only in that case

spell pierce IMO is a really nice sideboard card but has little to no space i MD, as i would allways prefer more cantrip effects to search for answers

Rust

08-16-2011, 09:44 PM

Yeah, the list looks a bit rough I guess :laugh:

I think I've found a good way to round it out some more (thanks to your suggestions)

-2 Jace
-3 Spell pierce
+2 thoughtseize (total of 4)
+2 Daze (total of 4)
+1 Stifle (I'm not impressed with it enough to put the whole playset in, total of 3)

I think it's a big improvement. What do you guys think?

Tombstalker

08-16-2011, 10:01 PM

Looks pretty well optimized id say and while I prefer hymn to thoughtseize I cant really argue with the power of thoughtseize either so I think its up to your personal preference here.
Also although I dont personally like JTMS in TA many people have had great success with and swear by him both main and from the SB so dont let us deter you :) Another cheaper alternative would be Sylvan Library.

DerFern

08-17-2011, 02:35 AM

After playing several combo decks for the past year I switched back to TA at our local tourney last week and gave it a shot at some 8man queues during the german nationals. Since the meta looks a little greedy right now, especially those fragile mana bases (and because of my love for the card) I chose Sinkhole over Hymn. Making my Dazes a hardcounter and forcing my opponents to hit their onedrops into the bin (read= run into MMS), Sinkhole is just a powerhouse right now.

The list I played there (2:0 Belcher, 2:0 NOrug, 2:1 Hivemind) was a little bit different from what I´m about to play now. Here we go:

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker
3 Vendilion Clique

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Mental Misstep
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Sinkhole
2 Snuff Out
1 Dismember
1 Go for the Throat

19 Lands

I bolded the main differences from the most recent lists. Whatever suite of removal you play depends on personal preferences and the local meta, so I chose Snuff Out which fits a little better into the early tempo plan.

I decreased the number of Stalkers to 2, since -as you might have noticed- can be a little bit clunky if you have more than one in hand. Since I don´t play JTMS, my only way to get rid of them is with Brainstorm and I don´t want to waste this amazing card just to get rid of a critter I can´t cast at this time.

Playing 3 Clique is awesome. I don´t like Hymn in this deck, so Clique serves the purpose of gettind rid of your opponents removal, gives very valuable information of your next lines of play, is one more evasive beater (and pitches to FoW in the early game). Oh, and casting Clique in response to your opponents Show and Tell is a hell of fun =)

Sinkhole, as mentioned punishes your opponents greedy mana bases. I did not like Hymn in this deck, as you already have a Stifle/Wasteland package and if you completely screw them out of the game I couldn´t care less about what they might have in hand. So I chose this angle to attack my opponent and leave them with a full hand, which they can´t use. Again, I am aware that this is debatable, but Sinkhole served me really well recently.

The rest is pretty basic... maybe I´ll give this deck a few more chances to prove it is good, but somehow I still think it could be improved.

Regarding my sideboard, I had 4 Submerge and 4 Spell Pierce without any doubt. There are no cards out there which fit better into this tempo plan than these both. The rest was a mix of Deeds, Extirpates and my personal MVP, Beast Within. This card is incredible, as I used it several times as a Sinkhole 5-6. It is the instant Vindicate, TA could never afford due to its mana base. At the same time, it is versatile as it also kills Planeswalkers. You might want to check this card out; it has never been a blank.

Well, that´s it right now. I guess I´ll comment again when I have more data available of this builts performance. Until then...
Sink

Mr. Safety

08-17-2011, 08:21 AM

@DerFern: Regarding Beast Within...how man were you sideboarding? I've been using Maelstrom Pulse in a wierd Faeries/Bug concoction lately, but Beast Within is available to me as well. The instant speed has a lot of merit, for sure. Did you ever kill any of your own permanents to get a 3/3 beater on the table?

I'm also curious if you've tested out Sylvan Library. It seems really strong, and I'm using it instead of 2 Ponders (4 Brainstorm, 2 Ponder, 2 Sylvan Library)

DerFern

08-17-2011, 09:27 AM

@DerFern: Regarding Beast Within...how man were you sideboarding?
this oviously depends on the matchup you´re boarding. BW is a card where "if you want to board one, you also want to board two" fits. And, where you want to destroy a "permanent" (neither critter nor land) you want to make sure you hit one of those cards, so boarding two of them seemed right.

Did you ever kill any of your own permanents to get a 3/3 beater on the table?
not yet, but this could happen for sure. A situation where this might occur is against BUG Landstill or something like that. EOT Beast Within to kill their JTMS or in response to a cast Standstill this seems huge. But either way, Clique does the same here and is way better.

I'm also curious if you've tested out Sylvan Library. It seems really strong, and I'm using it instead of 2 Ponders (4 Brainstorm, 2 Ponder, 2 Sylvan Library)
It is huge, as Library is the only way to gain card advantage if you´re not playing Hymns or JTMS, so I´m going to give it a try. However, cutting Ponder seems plain wrong in my build, as it has less lands and less actual "bombs" that you could find. Therefore, I prefer the full set of both cantrips right now as they support the aggro-control strategy and make it easier to switch between both "roles" this deck can play.
On a different note: as I´m playing a strongly tempo-oriented way, I don´t want to reach the lategame, where my build acutually sucks. If my gameplan works, the opponent is quite dead. If it does not, I don´t think that a two-off could be the solution there.

Worm1605

08-17-2011, 04:41 PM

Worm1605- Thanks for the suggestions. I dont currently own Thrun but he's on my list to buy so ill test him once I get one. I was running clique in the main and it seemed to perform better for me from the side but that was in a different build then what im using now so I may test it main again. Honestly if I dropped anything it would probably be a single Stifle or a removal, not sure though.

RE: the mana base, this is something I have been testing. I really dont like the lists that employ 22 lands and higher cost threats main as I always seem to draw too many lands.
So far 19 has done very well for me, although this is in part because I have dropped almost all spells above 2cc, which is also why I had moved clique to the side. I noticed most of my matches where clique shines my manabase is not at risk (NO RUG, SNT HM, reanimator etc) so it is ok to board them in with the lower land count that I run. The main exception being landstill.

I am not really on a budget (dont tell my wife that) but rather I have been testing with the basics and as you say they are a little...loose. The basics keep my removal live against moon effects and make Path to Exile hurt a little less. The forest also means I can run fewer green sources and not have to worry about being kept off of green by wasteland. Vindicate is another story but at least that can be countered.
The forest has been stellar although the swamp ive found to be a pain from time to time.

I may switch the swamp back out for a Tropical Island, although id actually probably prefer a 2nd Bayou as its pretty rare that id rather see the trop at all. That being said neither option really helps vs wasteland on my green sources and I really dont like half my win conditions and my draw engine getting denied. Anyone else have this problem when running all nonbasics?

Another thought I just had would be to trade the swamp for an island and trade Snuff Out for Dismember as suggested earlier. Any thoughts on this? Snuff out is great though so that would be a hard choice for me.

Lastly I have updated my sideboard in the list above with an Extirpate and a Life from the Loam. I have also dropped Relic, for now although I really like the slow grind if its dropped early. Very pleased with these changes so far.

The main reason I play this deck is the amazing utility of Stifle. I would never go below 4. If Stifle is not good in whatever current meta I just don't play this deck. Right now I feel like it's the nuts.

Running all non basics is the weakness of this deck, but for the spells I like to play it's quite necessary. I run 20 lands with 8 fetches and 2 Bayous. There are things you can do if you are scared of Moon effects. You can hold counters / mana for grip if you suspect one, you can also land a deed, EE on 3, or play a Seal or Primordium preemptively.

I love snuff out too, but have cut it because of Mental misstep, and fetches dealing a considerably amount of damage to yourself. Not to mention, YOU MUST KILL BOB, if they untap with him your tempo goes out the window. Same with Jace, but you have a much better time fighting him.

I run 20 lands with my main board cc topping off at 3, (not counting stalker of course). For reference:

Team America - 60

Spells - 30
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
4x Stifle
4x Mental Misstep
3x Daze
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Go for the Throat
2x Malestrom Pulse
4x Force of will

Enchantments - 1
1x Sylvan Library

Creatures - 9
4x Tarmagoyf
2x Vendellion Clique
3x Tombstalker

Lands -20
4x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
2x Tropical Island
3x Polluted Delta
3x Verdant Catacombs
2x Misty Rainforest
4x Wasteland

Sideboard - 15
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Darkblast
2x Diabolic Edit
2x Krosan Grip
1x Kira, the Great Glass Spinner
2x Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2x Jace, the Mindsculptor
2x Engineered Explosives

Flex slots in the main are the Library, Ponders, and the removal. I switch up the board week to week. Other cards I have played in the board include, Deed, Loam, Spell Pierce, Thrun, Ghastly Demise, Misdirection, Sower, Needle, Energy Flux, and Reverent Silence.

Tombstalker

08-17-2011, 06:14 PM

Worm1605

08-17-2011, 07:26 PM

You can't cut hymn it's your primary piece of disruption. the whole deck is built to T2 hymn.

I think cutting a stalker w/ all the Jaces floating around is completely reasonable. I would consider cutting a piece of removal too.

Tombstalker

08-17-2011, 09:10 PM

Ya dropped that notion right after I typed it, I dont want to go below 4 stalker or 4 hymn. I may squeeze 1 clique in place of the 5th removal just to test.

Worm1605

08-17-2011, 11:50 PM

Maybe try cutting a library for the second one? Library is one of my top 5 favorite cards of all time, but you don't want it in the aggro matchups, and drawing 2 is not fun

Worm1605

08-18-2011, 02:21 AM

Since the meta looks a little greedy right now, especially those fragile mana bases (and because of my love for the card) I chose Sinkhole over Hymn. Making my Dazes a hardcounter and forcing my opponents to hit their onedrops into the bin (read= run into MMS), Sinkhole is just a powerhouse right now.

Hymn hymn I win is always a good game plan when not playing Solidarity. All though it seems like a hell of a lot of fun to play with sinkhole, and definitely seems playable given an appropriate meta. Hmm... 'wonder how much those judge promo Sinkholes are? Anyways, it does seem a bit like Trisomy-21 at that point though.

DerFern

08-19-2011, 01:42 AM

@DeFern: Thats a kickass list you have, pure breakneck tempo! Very close to the original build. I would be interested to read some of your reports.
Stinkhole looks great but sadly I dont own any so ive never had the chance to try it out. How do you find your matchup against decks like NO RUG, maverick, Bant, blue zoo and any other list packing GSZ + dryad arbor or similar ramp? From personal experience it seems these types of decks can often outgrow our LD/daze strategy so I am curious if you've found stinkhole makes this strategy more relevant.
From the matchups which ramp up on mana, I only played against Hivemind, Bant and Elves so far. In all of those matchups, the LD plan worked out really fine, at least during game1. I only lost to Bant, but that was because I didn´t draw a critter for 14 turns while keeping him only on one mana. That was kind of dusgusting, but such things happen. During game2, I made a crucial missplay and was beaten as I deserved.
Thing is, that even if they do ramp up they still don´t have more lands in their deck. The other ramp (Hierarch, Birds, etc.) can be handled with either your removal or your denial. And Snuff out on Dryad Arbor is just sweet :) I´m willing to pay that four life about every time I have the opportunity.

With the information from my past tournament, I´ll definitely try to squeeze a Sylvan Library into my maindeck. For that, I tanked about -and yeah, I really want to give it a shot- cutting Force of Will. As I already said, the major flaw of my deck is the lack of card advantage. Therefore I thought trading 1-2 is never a good idea and with this tempo strategy, maindecking Spell Pierce might be a good choice.
Maybe I´m going to -4 FoW, +1 Library, +2 Spell Pierce, +1 Preordain or something similar. I´m not that sure abut that right now, but somehow FoW seems to be one of the weakest parts of the deck.

Any thoughts on that? Is cutting Force of Will an option or a no-go?

blaat

08-19-2011, 03:04 AM

Any thoughts on that? Is cutting Force of Will an option or a no-go?

Well, since the introduction of mental misstep and running 4x daze, I have to agree I had some dead FOW's at hand.
I can't remember that with this deck a few years back (no missteps).
I thought about it, did some testing, but I just can't remove any from the maindeck.
However, I do board them out against for example non-control decks (there was a thread about this a few times in the discussion section here, read it and the mentioned articles).

AggroSteve

08-19-2011, 07:04 AM

what decks do you actually mean with control-deck? do you think of landstill and the likes, and maybe some boardcontrolldecks?
or are you speaking of permission-deck(decks countering your stuff)?

Purgatory

08-19-2011, 09:42 AM

Ya dropped that notion right after I typed it, I dont want to go below 4 stalker or 4 hymn. I may squeeze 1 clique in place of the 5th removal just to test.

Right now, I play 4 Goyfs, 4 Stalkers and a Clique (so nine threats, no Jaces) along with 4 Brainstorms, 4 Ponders and a Preordain. Full list on the previous page.

It has been working really well for me, although I kinda hate the Clique's 1UU manacost, since it means I can't cast all my spells with only Underground Sea and Bayou in play, in some games it's a real monster and having another creature, especially a flyer has helped me out a lot. The high number of cantrips also allow me to keep a low threat count and search for answers frequently.

GtF

08-19-2011, 02:46 PM

From the matchups which ramp up on mana, I only played against Hivemind, Bant and Elves so far. In all of those matchups, the LD plan worked out really fine, at least during game1. I only lost to Bant, but that was because I didn´t draw a critter for 14 turns while keeping him only on one mana. That was kind of dusgusting, but such things happen. During game2, I made a crucial missplay and was beaten as I deserved.
Thing is, that even if they do ramp up they still don´t have more lands in their deck. The other ramp (Hierarch, Birds, etc.) can be handled with either your removal or your denial. And Snuff out on Dryad Arbor is just sweet :) I´m willing to pay that four life about every time I have the opportunity.

With the information from my past tournament, I´ll definitely try to squeeze a Sylvan Library into my maindeck. For that, I tanked about -and yeah, I really want to give it a shot- cutting Force of Will. As I already said, the major flaw of my deck is the lack of card advantage. Therefore I thought trading 1-2 is never a good idea and with this tempo strategy, maindecking Spell Pierce might be a good choice.
Maybe I´m going to -4 FoW, +1 Library, +2 Spell Pierce, +1 Preordain or something similar. I´m not that sure abut that right now, but somehow FoW seems to be one of the weakest parts of the deck.

Any thoughts on that? Is cutting Force of Will an option or a no-go?

I agree that Force is weaker now than it has been in the past because all your other counters get spent in so many matchups. I've had the dead force draw in a few games and it does suck. I'd consider moving one to the sideboard, I don't think I'd cut them all though. I've also considered cutting a wasteland for another colored mana source, as wasteland is now more a surgical tool to get important lands - outright manascrewing people is much more difficult now than it used to be.

Tombstalker

08-20-2011, 10:56 AM

I haven't tested with a no FoW list but my gut says its a bad idea since it would make our favorite matchups alot worse. To me FoW remains a MD set that gets boarded out against zoo and similar fast aggro decks. Too many decks can largely ignore MMS/daze making a non FoW TA deck just a bad control deck. FoW also goes well with hymn because the card disadvantage offsets. Still I would love to be proven wrong :)

DerFern

08-20-2011, 12:06 PM

Still I would love to be proven wrong :)

no prove yet
I tested a FOWless list today at a local tournament (9 Players, only 4 rounds). This is the 75 I registered:

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker
3 Vendilion Clique

4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Mental Misstep
3 Spell Pierce

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library

4 Sinkhole
2 Snuff Out
2 Go for the throat
1 Dismember

19 Lands

SB
4 Submerge
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
3 Extirpate
2 Beast Within

The thing is that I was quite satisfied with how the deck worked by itself. I didn´t miss FoW except for one little moment (which cost me a game). Here is a little more detailed report:

R1, Canadian Thresh
G1 is a fight of material, as it is supposed to be. He screws me a little, has Mongoose and Goyf down, with UR available. He´s attacking several times and I don´t block because of F/I or Bolt. Finally he burns me out and I can´t do anything about it.
G2 I have Delta, go. He plays Tropical, Ponder. I have Wasteland and Extirpate
G3 I Sinkhole his lone land, counter his cantrips and stick a library. He never has another land.

R2, Rock with Dark Depths
G1 Mulligan 5, only one land for 6 turns. I can prevent his DD some turns with my wasteland. Then he has LftL online, so it´s upt to
G2 where I can´t prevent a Bob (Snuff Out suxx). He has a Vindicate for my Stalker (Mental Misstep suxx) and finally Loam online

R3, ANT (HokusSchmokus)
G1 TA does what it´s supposed to do to combo
G2 I counter his first turn Brainstorm (who plays Brainstorm T1?!), T2 he´s trying Ponder, I respond with Extirpate on BS to see his hand: 2 Chant, 2 Petal, DR, ToA. Ponder gets dazed and the rest is not to be mentioned.

R4, UB Stiflenought (Garthman)
G1 he has a fast Bob and can kill two of my Goyfs. I shut down some lands and when he finally has a Nought it gets snuffed out. Goyf gets there.
G2 he has a fast Bob, I don´t get my second land and when I have it, it gets wasted.
G3 is a tough one. I screw the hell out of him, but unfortunately don´t find a single critter to use this tempo advantage. When Tombstalker finally comes down, he´s gone to the throat. I resolve a library which only finds crap. I take two cards and go down to 3 life with only Spell Pierce in hand to prevent some bad things from happening. I had the choice between Spell Pierce and Snuff Out. Bad things means EOT Vendilion Clique... shit, bad decision...

Such a small tournament will not get a decent information about whether FoW has to be in there, so I´ll try to gather some more information. Both losses were quite bad beats with the first loss being only to my deck fucking up. However, it felt good but that´s not a solid base for the future. I´ll keep you up to date...

Wereodile

08-20-2011, 12:11 PM

DerFern - Were you happy with the Sinkholes over Hymn? Also I currently have 2 libraries in my list which hasn't been an issue did you find 1 was enough?

DerFern

08-20-2011, 12:17 PM

DerFern - Were you happy with the Sinkholes over Hymn? Also I currently have 2 libraries in my list which hasn't been an issue did you find 1 was enough?

Yeah, Sinkhole was quite good as it always is. Except for R2 against that loam guy (and Mox Diamond obv) they were great all day. As I said: the tempo plan woul´ve worked if I had found a critter to smash some faces.

Strangely, I found my lonely library quite often, so right now my impression is that it is enough. However, 4 rounds of magic are not a solid base for any conclusions...

Wereodile

08-20-2011, 12:22 PM

Yeah, Sinkhole was quite good as it always is. Except for R2 against that loam guy (and Mox Diamond obv) they were great all day. As I said: the tempo plan woul´ve worked if I had found a critter to smash some faces.

Strangely, I found my lonely library quite often, so right now my impression is that it is enough. However, 4 rounds of magic are not a solid base for any conclusions...

Sorry another couple of questions, when Snuff out wasn't working for you what did you board in instead Edicts? How was Beast Within?

Thank you for the response I appreciate it!

DerFern

08-20-2011, 12:35 PM

Sorry another couple of questions, when Snuff out wasn't working for you what did you board in instead Edicts? How was Beast Within?

Thank you for the response I appreciate it!
I didn´t board those edicts. They were primary meant to help me out against SneakShow or similar decks. Beast Within only saw play against Stiflenought as an answer to his Counterbalance. I did not draw them. However, he never resolved a balance, so it´s quite fair.

Tombstalker

08-20-2011, 01:12 PM

DerFern: thanks for the report, your list is definitely different from current lists. Also sinkhole and pierce have good synergy in your deck which helps bring it closer to FoW.
have you really found you prefer the 3rd clique as opposed to the 3rd tombstalker? Our is this more of a test run?
Lastly how did you daze ponder after casting extirpate? Or am I misunderstanding something?

Vandalize

08-20-2011, 04:59 PM

Have you guys tried to cut green and make a UB list? Or that would make a totally different deck. Haven't missed Goyfs and Deeds in my testing, but the list is somewhat very focused on control.

// Lands
2 [UNH] Swamp
2 [UNH] Island
4 [R] Underground Sea
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tombstalker
3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
3 [NE] Daze
2 [MBS] Go for the Throat
3 [MOR] Bitterblossom
4 [SC] Stifle
2 [MM] Snuff Out
4 [AT] Hymn to Tourach
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NPH] Mental Misstep
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [M12] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TO] Llawan, Cephalid Empress
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 2 [TE] Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 [MBS] Go for the Throat
SB: 3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 2 [MM] Energy Flux

Bitterblossom is really, really good. It can stall KotR and other non-trample fatties like a boss, and offer a good quality offense if dropped early. The list is very solid, but still, the lack of green makes the deck more vulnerable to artifact/enchantment stuff.

Cliques upped to 3 because it's freaking good. Stalker as the main fatty, and Jace 2.0 post-board to help the kill.

Sorry if this have been discussed before.

Tombstalker

08-20-2011, 05:47 PM

I ran a u/b list very similar to yours before Moving on to dreadstalker and then eventually coming back to traditional TA. iirc I tried fewer cantrips and two jittes main. I really enjoyed the list and the more stable manabase. I think you have touched on the main drawbacks of losing green, namely no goyf, deed, library, pulse, ee, loam etc. which are all reasons I returned to TA. Still the deck is solid without G so roll with it and give us some reports!
Edit: the deck is also very susceptible to tribal hate like e.plague

DerFern

08-21-2011, 06:27 AM

have you really found you prefer the 3rd clique as opposed to the 3rd tombstalker? Our is this more of a test run?

in theory, I thought a third Clique would be stronger since I had several Stalkers in hand which I could not always cast. However, I had a situation yesterday where I had all 3 Cliques in hand and was stuck on 2 lands. So this sucks, either way. Needs more testing, obv. But being able to EOT Clique to deliver three to the dome is just plain strong. And, in times of a Stoneblade flood, Clique seems to be even stronger right now...

Lastly how did you daze ponder after casting extirpate? Or am I misunderstanding something?

Ponder on Stack
response Extirpate
Extirpate resolves
Ponder still on stack
Daze
profit!?

Kellyx

08-21-2011, 02:58 PM

I would never ever ever ever run this deck w/o 3-4 FoWs.
Its a core card.There are plenty of other cards to manage(dazes/stifles/lands/ponders/removal).
The point of the deck is to rape combos, and force is main card vs them.If you want to play a FoWless list, just play maverick?
____
I wouldnt play TA at all in current meta:>.At least my metagame(modo) consists of UW blades.Like 50%+ of decks in dailes are UWs.And its superbad match up for team america, especialy after SB.
I realy like this deck and played it prety long, but had to rerol to NO RUG, just because it fails miserably in today's meta.

Tombstalker

08-21-2011, 07:59 PM

Ponder on Stack
response Extirpate
Extirpate resolves
Ponder still on stack
Daze
profit!?

Oh ya, long day at work whoops.

Edit: the recent talk of sinkhole has me thinking, has anyone considered a 3/3 split of hymn/sinkhole? Its been a point of constant debate of which is currently superior so why not run both and overload on disruption?

sdematt

08-23-2011, 03:44 AM

Right now, I'm running:

8 Fetches
3 Underground
3 Bayou
1 Trop
4 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest

4 Dark Confidant (I know everyone hates on Confidant, but CA is great)
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Tombstalker

3 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Stifle
3 Hymn
4 Brainstorm
2 Sylvan Library
3 Smother
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Board (my beta has tons of Aggro Loam, Stoneblade, RUG, etc.)

2 Thrun
3 Perish
3 Grip
3 Pierce
3 Extirpate
1 MetaMorph

No Jace, true, but I'm beating face and disrupting. Sinkhole seems decent, since we have no access to Vindicate for basic land destruction and helps slow them down. But, I'm not sure how much more we want to go into double black.

-Matt

imRauSch

08-23-2011, 04:07 AM

(my beta has tons of Aggro Loam, Stoneblade, RUG, etc.)

Freudian Slip? :P

Tombstalker

08-23-2011, 05:33 PM

How about a more extreme list then, something like this that almost completely maximizes disruption:

Creatures 8
4 Tombstalker
4 Vendilion Clique

Permission 16
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
4 Stifle
4 Daze

Disruption 6
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Stinkhole

Cantrips 7
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

Removal 4
2 Snuff Out
2 Go for the Throat

Lands 19
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
1 Watery Grave
1 Swamp
1 Island

A more stable manabase, 30 cards hell-bent on hand/manabase disruption, and all threats have evasion!

sdematt

08-23-2011, 08:14 PM

Most def a slip there :P.

-Matt

xfxf

08-24-2011, 06:10 AM

After testing Jace and Vendilion Clique as 2 ofs in my list I'm unsatisfied with them both in the MD.

I'm using the vanilla tempo core currently.

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker

4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Daze
3 Stifle

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

2 Diabolic Edict
2 Dismember

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou

Which leaves me with 2 slots. Jace for 4 mana with 20 lands is unsustainable. Clique, I don't know how to put it.. I don't cast it sorcery speed cause I can cast Hymn, Tarmo, Stalker, Ponder...I don't cast it eot because I probably Brainstormed, Dismembered etc. Maybe I don't know how to use the card propery but appereantly not good for my style.
I tried Sylvan Libraries but the most use you can get out of the card is when you are down on cards or on top deck mode, in which case life loss is already a problem and library can't swing the game at that point.
I'll lastly test 2 more removals (go for the throat/maelstorm pulse/deed don't know yet) to increase my aggro mathcup a slightly but I'm open to suggestions.

Jonathan Alexander

08-24-2011, 07:11 AM

No reason not to run Darkblast. It helps a lot against all the manacreatures running around in Legacy and helps turning on Daze against decks packing these. Apart from that, Sylvan Library is also a reasonable one-off. This is practically what I've been trying out again, only with two Jaces and two more fetches instead of the Ponders.
But to be honest, the old tempo-plan doesn't seem to be too strong right now. You're devoting too many slots for cards that interact with your opponent's manabase while not having the strongest manabase yourself. I also noticed in testing that it's really hard to win against NO RUG if you don't draw an insanely strong hand (i.e. some good business paired up with Darkblast).
How are your results with that list so far? Also, what does your board look like? Did you try running the white splash over green? Definitely seems reasonable right now.

Tombstalker

08-24-2011, 10:00 AM

Personally I find 5 removal to be optimal, although there isnt much TA can do to improve its G1 against aggro. Just load up on hate from the board and if you play in a very aggro heavy environment you may even consider a different deck.

Re: sylvan library, your right, when in topdeck library cant always bring you back (unlike jace). However, this deck owns the early game against most opponents, and I feel library fits here better than jace due to 2cc.
Not sure how you were using library (I used to shuffle mine away for later) but if you get the opportunity to drop it early do it, its like a 5th hymn. This is also why I run 2 library's so I can find them (relatively) easily.
Dropping an early library can be just as devastating as a t2 hymn. I love getting into a counter war over library because its soo pivotal to the match. Force one through and next turn draw 3 and from there you will usually win with CA. It also makes every StP into a draw spell for us which is nice.

xfxf

08-24-2011, 10:36 AM

I'm playing Legacy casualy so I like to stick with TA but I'm trying to increase my aggro matchup to about 50% so that I'm not forced to metagame with different decks just because I'm getting steam rolled most of the time :)

x_K

08-24-2011, 11:38 AM

My rough-new list I'm testing:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Spell-stutter sprite
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Mental Misstep

2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Thoughtseize
2 Smother
1 Go for the Throat

2 Jace the Mindsculptor

4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Mutavault
1 Riptide Laboratory
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs

Tombstalker

08-24-2011, 03:56 PM

bilb_o, if your meta is truly aggro heavy and you want to continue to play TA you could try maindecking 2 engineered explosives and also squeeze in a Darkblast or 2 in place of other removal. EE used to be MD material in TA anyway.
Also im sure you do this already, but its worth practicing mulliganing and goldfishing vs. aggro to make your game 1 as good as possible. After boarding the matchup becomes a little better.

x_K- that list looks like bug faeries more than TA, not saying its wrong to post here, just saying..ive tested lists like this in the past and honestly I think you need equipment to make it work, and more disruption, and a clock. You have a ton of situational counterspells, no stifle or wasteland to make daze any good and no real clock other than goyf. Also the deck folds to e.plague on wizards.
If you want to play this style my suggestion would be to go b/u/w and bring in a stoneforge mystic package along with bitterblossom. for a more control oriented deck.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS

08-24-2011, 04:28 PM

I think you kids need more Darkblast:

20 Land
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland

8 Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
1 Vendilion Clique

32 Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Mental Misstep
3 Spell Snare
3 Daze
3 Ponder
2 Darkblast
2 Snuff Out
1 Dismember
1 Maelstrom Pusle
1 Sylvan Library

15 Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Spell Pierce
3 Submerge
2 Pithing Needle
2 Null Rod
1 Krosan Grip

With all the NO RUG decks, Tarmogoyfs and x/1 creatures flying around, maindeck Darkblast has been epic.

miko

08-24-2011, 05:09 PM

I'm going to test Darkblast, too. It's not only strong against RUG but against all that GW Zenith lists, too.

AggroSteve

08-24-2011, 06:28 PM

@ RaNDoMxGeSTuReS: just a question on a specific cardchoice in your maindeck..... why spell snare over stifle?

@ darkblast: tested it before, often found it awesome, often found it terrible as well, i think darkblast is more suited to be a sideboard-card than for MD, well obviously it would greatly depend on your meta, if yours is full of manadorks, darkblast is a blast^^

Tombstalker

08-24-2011, 06:35 PM

@ RaNDoMxGeSTuReS: just a question on a specific cardchoice in your maindeck..... why spell snare over stifle?

Seconded. Maindeck Stifle is one of the reasons to play this deck, although I admit it does come up short against a fair amount of the field lately. Not sure if Snare is any better though so im also interested in your experiences.

Theonlyone

08-24-2011, 06:48 PM

Hello there, I've been testing different versions of team america in France for 2 months ago but abandoned the idea of playing that deck because of a metagame full of cawblade decks in my local tournament.
Is it still very unfavorable against that deck since they're not playing much counters anymore? What are the key cards against them?
Thanx

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS

08-24-2011, 09:21 PM

@Spell Snare: It's strictly a meta choice. I play Team America a pretty defined meta. Most of the time Stifle is FoW fodder, or is never in my hand when I want it. Spell Snare double as pseudo-removal because it hits Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, Lord of Atlantis, Stoneforge Mystic, Standstill and more awesome stuff. Aside from fetchlands and Wasteland, Stoneforge Mystic is the main thing I'm casting Stifle against. For my meta, Spell Snare is more practical across the board.

AggroSteve

08-25-2011, 04:11 AM

@ RaNDoMxGeSTuReS: i have to admit i have been thinking the same thing lately, that stifle is not what i need in my meta anymore, since a lot of monocolored decks are now starting to show up, or 2-colordecks, and in that case stifle is not that good anymore, simply because they run less fetches (at least here) and less duals for wasteland, so it often happened to me that they got to the midgame or even lategame where we (tempobuild) suck

i tested spell snare before, in the daze slot, and at first i kinda liked it, but after a while i saw that spell snare is to conditional IMO (at least in the daze slot) and i wanted daze back, becase 2nd turn hymn + daze support is awesome, otherwise you might be holding the spell snare and not being able to cast it.

but i could see spell snare working well in the stifle slot, specially since it adds more outs if we are on the draw, and being able to counter his 2-drop on "virtual" turn 1 is very nice, otherwise we would hope he would use a fetch and run into stifle, so we could catch up a bit

i definitely have to test spell snare in the stifle slot, i will tell you if i liked it or not

oldbsturgeon

08-25-2011, 11:39 AM

Okay I wanted to write about my experience playing the version with white instead of green.
I put the list that I had played on the esperblade forum, though this is probably the better place for the deck like this.
looks something like:
4 stoneforge mystic
3 tombstalker
2 batterskull
4 force of will
4 mental misstep
3 daze
3 stifle
4 hymn to tourach
3 swords to plowshares
1 darkblast
1 dismember
4 brainstorm
3 ponder
4 underground sea
2 tundra
2 scrubland
4 wasteland
3 polluted delta
3 flooded strand
3 marsh flats

I was playing against sam swisher, who is a friend and the guy that got second in lexington not too long ago. We played against NO-RUG and the deck he played at lexington, traditional TA, actually playing something like the deck Gerry T played and won with.

Now he is a better player than me for sure, so I can attribute me not knowing what I am doing, to losses, but if you look back he was playing JTMS in the deck, and actually has 3 in the deck now.
Many people say it shouldn't be in the deck, but I tell you he loves it and it was pretty bad beats when I saw it against me.

So he was advocating I need to play jace. What I know about this deck and what I read, says to not play it, but the decks that I have seen win or place high have jace in the deck. Maybe its by chance this has happened, but is it actually good in the deck?
As for the NO-RUG games we played, I won the games where I had the turn 2 hymn and lost the ones I did not.

SpeakingofJager

08-25-2011, 12:21 PM

I posted almost that exact 60 a few pages back, out of respect for the BUG nature of this deck, i decided to try my hat at esperblade as well, and got no reception. I personally feel like Esper is the natural evolution of Team America, but to prevent pointless arguements in this thread, I've come to the conclusion it should be considered a different deck. I was hoping to do get some more top 8s before posting a primer, but I think i'll put one up before the night is out

keys

08-25-2011, 02:48 PM

Okay I wanted to write about my experience playing the version with white instead of green.

I think the best place to start is with Gerry T's winning TA list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=39910) from SCG Pittsburgh. I love it because it has enough lands to consistently play Jace, and it still has a respectable disruption package.

Then I made these changes:

-4 Tarmogoyf
-2 Dismember
-2 Diabolic Edict
-1 Pernicious Deed
-1 Daze
+4 Stoneforge Mystic
+4 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Batterskull
+1 Sword of Feast and Famine

Of course, I switched the manabase for UBW duals and fetches.

Lastly, I made these changes to the SB:

-3 Ghastly Demise
-1 Pernicious Deed
-1 Life from the Loam
+2 Diabolic Edict
+1 Perish
+1 Darkblast (Lavamancer, Hierarch, Clique, Mom, Arbor, etc.)
+1 Vendilion Clique

The final decklist looks like this:

4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Tombstalker
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Misstep
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
2 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Ponder
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Marsh Flats
4 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
2 Scrubland

Sideboard:
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Perish
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Darkblast
2 Thoughtseize
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Vendilion Clique

Better removal, arguably better creatures, and immunity to Perish. The only thing this gives up is Deed and Loam. Deed isn't as important with Tribal losing popularity, and Loam can be substituted with Crucible, but I wanted a third Clique someone in the 75 and this looked like a good spot.

Tombstalker

08-25-2011, 10:55 PM

Dbl post

Tombstalker

08-25-2011, 10:56 PM

All the recent talk about SFM over goyf has me intrigued. Splashing white instead of green also opens up some cool SB options like retribution of the meek among others. My question to those who have tested this change is, how have you found SFM to be in aggro match ups and vs NO RUG?
It seems better than goyf vs. merfolk but worse against zoo, maverick, NO RUG and mirror esque match ups like TA. I am going to test this eventually but id like some feedback first. Do you find mystic too easily disrupted? Also has the slower speed of mystic been a problem as opposed to goyf?
This new direction seems to warrant more testing but if it makes our combo m atch up worse without improving our aggro match up significantly then I dont see the point.

lordofthepit

08-25-2011, 11:11 PM

keys

08-26-2011, 01:13 AM

retribution of the meek

Why would you ever play this over Perish? There are a million better ways to deal with Emrakul.

SpeakingofJager

08-26-2011, 01:46 AM

@ Tombstalker: Play SFM. Goyf is powerful, but all he is is a vanilla creature. SFM gives you access to the best answers to aggro: Batterskull. The addition of batterskull makes aggro a much easier match up than you would think. You lose nothing against combo. My list has had 2 top 8's in 70+ person events (both Jupiter NELC Qualifiers) in a row and a top 32 at SCG Boston. PM me, bro.

@ the rest of the Thread: I feel like the Esper America (what i'm calling it right now) is different enough from traditional Team America that I'm willin to put together and post a primer. I'm afraid posting esper in here would clutter the thread, but if the consensus is post in here, I will.

xfxf

08-26-2011, 03:15 AM

I didn't test the deck but I think I can see a few issues. SFM is slower than Goyf, is in burn range, dependent on colored mana more. I mean you only need green mana once for Goyf but for mystic to operate you are more vulnerable to wastelands on Tundra.

Though I agree that SFM is solid with a counter backup, why not drop the Hymns altogether and replace them with Standstills. Looking at those lists I see 2-3 Stalkers + 4 Hymns as only black splash. Are they really that crucial so as to pick this deck up rather than a U/W Blade control?

I think a primer would be really good especially if you could include matchup analysis as well.

rancOr_

08-26-2011, 07:15 AM

I've been testing this UWB list for a while now also and it crushes NO RUG. I think its an upgrade as Perish/darblast is SO huge atm(maverick;no -rug-almost no merfolk etc..)

oldbsturgeon

08-26-2011, 10:41 AM

What I saw when I played it 2 days ago against NO-RUG you have to anticipate your guy will get burned out before you ever get to untap again so just have the counters for it.
But as I said earlier, the turn two hymn made all the difference in the games.
I also realized the power of clique finally and am putting those in the deck as well

Tombstalker

08-26-2011, 06:37 PM

@keys- I wouldn't play RotM instead of Perish but in addition to it, and why not? Green has become less prevalent in zoo and RotM also hits merfolk and emrakul, in addition to hitting almost everything that perish does a well. I realize it can hurt tombstalker but batterskull and SFM dont care too much.

Re: SFM package, bilb_o hit on most of my concerns but I am still very interested in a primer including match up analysis and reports, here or elsewhere.
@speakingofjager-ill pm you soon our when I get home from work at the latest tomorrow a.m.

SpeakingofJager

08-27-2011, 11:42 PM

Primer for the white variant of Team America is posted. Would love your feed back

DerFern

09-02-2011, 06:23 AM

So, here´s a little more about my testing of a FoW-less list. I played this 75 last wednesday at our local tournament:

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker
3 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library

4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Mental Misstep
3 Spell Pierce

4 Sinkhole
2 Snuff Out
2 Go for the Throat
1 Dismember

19 Lands

SB
4 Submerge
3 Force of Will
3 Extirpate
2 Beast Within
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2 Pernicious Deed

Round 1, New Horizons
G1 I screw the hell out of him after a fight of material over one of his Stifles. I let it resolve, cause his Stifle, MM, FoW and Pitch is more than I would like to invest and keep my Spell Pierces at hand. Soon after, I beat him with 2 Goyf while his board contains of only a single land. Spell Pierces eat both of his Swords to Plowshares.
G2 I need to mulligan, keep a critter-heavy hand with less disruption. I never get a creature onto the battlefield due to his both Wastelands
G3 I´m on the play and he is in constant fear of my possible Extirpates (which I did not board). This reminded me of Slapsgiving from HIMYM ;) However, we have an about even board position while I get a Sylvan Library online which refuels my hand and wins the game

Round 2, Punishing Zoo
G1 He´s on the play and knows me for being the combo player. His hand of 2 nonbasics and Gaddock Teeg is not that great when I have 2 Stifle, Sinkhole, 2 Wasteland. He never gets to two mana for about 15turns while I can´t find a single beater. Then I do and he´s out.
G2 is about the same, except for him getting two basics and Hierarchs. Sinkhole and Snuff Out are really that awesome. Oh yeah, 4 Submerges help a lot in this matchup

Round 3, BW Rock
This is a tough one. First, he´s only twocolored. Second, he´s on budget. Third, he´s got a shitload of discard, Bitterblossom and way more removal than I have creatures.
G1 there´s nothing I can do while he establishes a quite good board position, has all the mana in the world and a removal of some sort for any critter I drop. When he gets a Vampire Nighthawk down and I already wasted both GftTs there´s nothing I can do anymore.
G2 he beats me with only Dark Confidant which I could not get rid off. However, he drew a lot of cards which were not useful for him, so at the end, 1 lonely Goyf wins this one. Countering only the REALLY relevant stuff was key here. Oh, and Deed killing 2 Confidents, Jitte and Bitterblossom was nice, too :) Tarmogoyf was a 7/8 monster
G3 was awesome! He has two Confidants only which show Elspeth, Vindicate, VNighthawk and stuff like that. I could get rid of them but chose not to for his high mana curve. When I was down on 4 life and he on 6, he chose to StP his own critter to survive. Nice, one removal less. He casts VNighthawk with only 1 mana available. I respond with Clique, seeing 2 Vindicate, 1 Elspeth and something else. Here I miscalculate my own mana, double-daze his Nighthawk and have only 4 mana available next turn, don´t draw a pitchcard for my lonely FoW in hand and Clique gets Vindicated. We are both in topdeck mode while I have a Sylvan Library going. I get the pitchcard and double Tarmogoyf, so this one´s mine.

Round 4, NORug
I. D., but I lose both fun games. I really don´t know why, cause both of us thought this matchup is favored for TA. However, his Dazes were hardcounters all day while mine were not. If TA gets into a s ituation like this, it will most likely lose. Plus, we both had a library out but NORug has just wayyyyy more threats to draw than I do.

Overall 3-0-1 was quite nice. I boarded FoW only against Rock cause there were so many must-counters in there to keep my only 9 creatures alive and ass-kicking. In each other matchup, I did not miss it a single time. The list plays quite good and overall, I´m quite happy with it. The only thing that bothers me is the fact that I got stuck with my Submerges some times cause my tempo plan worked so well that I could not cast it for its alternate ^^ however, that normally should be nothing to complain about but still, you nevernevernever wand to have blanks in hand when there is no Brainstorm available.

Tombstalker

09-03-2011, 08:27 PM

Nice list Derfern and thanks for the report. Did you ever find yourself wishing stinkhole was hymn? Also would you consider dropping down to 3 stinkhole in your list?

On another topic, what do people think of testing the new Snapcaster Mage in TA? It seems very good with all of our low cost instants/sorceries although the tombstalker would affect this. Still with careful play I think SCM could be like additional Cliques, possibly better.

Purgatory

09-04-2011, 12:30 AM

Attended and T8'd a small local tourney with TA yesterday - 27 people.

R1: Bye.
Sweet, I grab some coffee and scout the room, and notice that there is a number of respectable decks (BUGstill, Stoneblade, Bant Aggro, NLT, Doomsday, Maverick, SneakShow, etc), and also a couple of random decks. I watch Allies.dec manhandling SneakShow, which was a bit of a laugh.

R2: RGB Goblins.
I know this player is playing Goblins, since he has been since the day I met him. I mulligan into Mental Misstep, since I'm on the draw and his shaky manabase allows me to steal game one on the back of a couple of Wastelands and a Stifle. Tombstalker gets there, and he has 0 answers to him when I drop him.

He gets game two after Misstepping my Misstep targeting his T1 Vial. The same Vial ticks up to 4 eventually, and he drops Ringleader into Warchief, Warchief, Ringleader, land and that Ringleader leads into another Ringleader. Sigh.

In the third game, he, once again gets greedy with his lands, and my Stifle/Wasteland package proves more effective than anticipated by either of us. Double Goyf beats him to death before he can make a single relevant play.

2-1 (2-0)

R3: Next-Level Thresh
I've seen this player at several other tournaments around here, and he is always playing some sort of blue aggro-control (much like myself). I lose the roll, but I can recover quite quickly with a disgusting triple-Hymn draw and I finally win G1 off the back of a Tombstalker which is a lot better than his Grim Lavamancer at the time. The third Hymn is a complete miss, however, since he responds to my Hymn with a Lightning Bolt, which I Misstep, only for him to Misstep my Misstep, so I drop to 6 and my Hymn does nothing. I kill the Lavamancer in response to him activating it, drop to 4 and Tombstalker gets there.

Game two is more one-sided, though I'm not exactly sure how I win. I believe Submerge is there somewhere, being all disgusting.

2-0 (3-0)

R4: Bant Aggro
I tell my opponent that I have yet to win a single die roll to start for the day, and he tells me the same thing is true for him, so I win the roll and my mana-denial package walks all over him in game one. Tombstalker gets there after a really long game where he can't stick any green mana, and where he Swords my first three creatures before I can swing four times.

He wins a very close game two after equipping a Goyf with both Sword of Fire and Ice and a Batterskull, making my Submerge in hand look rather silly (I drew it the turn after he equipped the Sword). At that point, he's at 1 life and I have a Tombstalker in play, but what does that matter when he has a 10/11 Lifelink creature in play? :P

I win game three by color-screwing him, Misstepping a mana dork and Wasting a Tropical Island. Somewhere here or in game two he Diverted a Hymn for the lulz of both of us.

2-1 (4-0)

R5: BUG-Still
He's a friend and a team-mate of mine, and he's at 3-0-1, so we ID because of all the 3-1's in the room.

0-0 (4-0-1)

I finish first in the swiss (go Team America!), my friend from R5 finish third and my brother fifth, meaning 3/8 in the T8 are good guys.

QF: Next-Level Thresh (same as round 3)
Game one is really weird, I keep a hand of UGSea, UGSea, Trop, Stifle, Smother, Mental Misstep and Brainstorm (or was it Ponder?), and then I draw nothing but more lands. My board is at one point 3 UGSea, Bayou, 2 Trop, Misty Rainforest (which can't fetch anything, my last UGSea got wasted), but he fails to get to even two lands through my Stifles and Wastelands. I finally win game one on the back of a Tombstalker, and we both have a laugh at our draws.

In game two, he drops Jace at about an even board state, and I can't answer him at all. Jace bouncing Tombstalker makes me sad, and I lose.

In game three, he has a board of Trop, Volcanic, Island, Tarmogoyf (2/3), Lavamancer against my Tombstalker + lands. We both have one card in hand (I have a Misstep). I'm at 8, he's at 2. He draws for his last turn, smiles, drops a land and windmill-slams Jace and once again steals the game. What, me bitter? No. The top card on my library was a Force, but whatever.

In the last local tourney, I also T8'd, but with Merfolk, but lost to a Hivemind deck which I beat in the swiss. It seems that I am vulnerable to players with a vengeance, somehow...

My list:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
4 Mental Misstep
4 Stifle
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Smother
2 Dismember

SB:
3 Spell Pierce
1 Daze
3 Submerge
2 Darkblast
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Tormod's Crypt

Submerge was a bomb all day, I never boarded in any of the graveyard hate. The last time I went to a tournament there, I tried to troll by not bringin any GY hate (because who brings a GY deck to a local?), and ended up playing the first round with Merfolk against Lands. This time I didn't run into anything where the hate would've been relevant enough. Go figure.

Tombstalker

09-04-2011, 06:34 PM

@Purgatory- Nice list and congrats on the top8.
Ive been testing a few proxies in my latest incarnation to get a feel for them before INN hits. Heres my latest list, lemme know what you guys think:

Creatures 9
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
2 Vendilion Clique

Plainswalkers 2
2 Liliana of the Veil

Enchantments 1
1 Sylvan Library

Permission 13
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce

Disruption 7
4 Stifle
3 Hymn to Tourach

Cantrips 6
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

Removal 3
3 Dismember

Lands 20
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Forest

So Ive finally given in and added Clique back into the main. Ive also dropped Snuff Out for Dismember and I must say I cant imagine ever going back. Its that good. I absolutely love Snuff Out but being able pay for Dismember incrementally as the game goes on is amazing and so is casting it without black if necessary.

Ive also found room for two Spell Pierce in the main and so far they have been great making my counter wall superior to most decks I encounter.

Right now the deck sits at 61 cards only due to testing a few changes. I usually roll 19 lands with no problems but the introduction of 3cc spells to my curve has caused me to increase the land count until I figure out what I want to cut.

The controversial inclusion is obviously Liliana of the Veil. I found room for her by dropping 1 spot removal and 1 hymn. At first glance she doesnt seem to fit in a tempo deck but so far ive found she absolutely fits in TA and heres why:

Shes a 3cc plainswalker that protects herself, in black. This is important because TA needs to hit UBBG reliably on T2 anyway so she fits the curve rather nicely and is often easier to cast than Vendilion Clique.

She can immediately effect the board state and afterwards she remains to help us maintain any tempo advantage weve created without further significant investment. If not answered quickly she will take over a game just like most other plainswalkers, turning her abilities into card advantage. Once on the board shes also an uncounterable and reusable answer to creatures that our spot removal cant touch i.e. progen, emrakul, thrun etc.

She plays a dual role of both removal and disruption allowing her to replace existing cards of those types in the maindeck without significantly reducing the effectiveness of either plan. In return her diversity gives us more options and options are usually good.

TA is full of situationally amazing cards, and as such also situationally horrible cards. Our cantrip engine helps to overcome this problem but sometimes you just cant avoid it. Ive found that Liliana is a great outlet here allowing me to fuel tombstalker/goyf with a dead draw while also hitting my opponents hand at the same time. Her +1 discard effect can often be turned from card parity into straight CA since TA has a tendency to dump its hand rather quickly. This translates into a better late game which we currently lack.

The downsides:
She costs 1BB. In TA 2cc is often the top of our curve (unless you play clique and/or jace). So far this hasnt been a problem for me, although people that want to play jace, clique and liliana all in the same shell will probably find their hand clogged from time to time. Note that I have not experimented with jace and liliana in the same deck although I prefer to avoid 4cc anything in TA, even JTMS. If going this route Landstill would probably just be better.

Shes better in BUG landstill. Yup, anything that maindecks Life from the Loam will have an edge here. This doesnt mean that she cant go in TA as well though.

Shes basically just a 3cc edict against graveyard heavy strategies like Dredge and Reanimator since the last thing you want to do is give them a discard outlet.

Well thats about all I can think of for now but so far Ive been very happy to draw her every time and Ive won every time shes hit the board, even in games where my previous list would of straight up lost. So, thoughts on the new Liliana in TA? And has anyone else been testing her?

Purgatory

09-04-2011, 07:07 PM

Very interesting, I must say. From your list, I think I would cut Sylvan Library, since I've never really liked that card in TA. I've found that between early Dismembers, fetches and Force of Will, I've lost enough life by the time Library becomes relevant, and by then it is really card-disadvantage. It filters draws, sure, but my cantrips does that for me, and they also feed the graveyard for Tombstalker. That'd make it 60 cards.

With that change made, I think I would change your manabase to include a basic Swamp, taking out the Forest and the Rainforests for Polluted Deltas and a Swamp. Between Tombstalker, Hymn to Tourach and Lilliana, getting BB seems important in your list, moreso than getting a green mana for Goyf.

Be sure to tell us how she works out, I like the card a lot, and I think I'll be testing her as well.

Tombstalker

09-04-2011, 08:11 PM

Wow I never even considered evaluating library for a cut but I will consider it now. That change would also lessen the demand for green and go well with the manabase changes you suggested. At that point it may just be better to go with 2 each of bayou/trop rather than any basics. In fact watery grave as a 5th sea might not be a bad alternative either.

catmint

09-05-2011, 05:42 AM

Interesting points about Liliana.

Disrupt into Goyf into Disrupt into Liliana should win some games, where we dont care anymore playing with the top card of our library. Concerning Sylvan Library: I was never a big fan of this card in TA preboard for not supporting the tempo plan enough. However library has a very good synergy with liliana. If you are empty handed and you know you are going to use +1 you pick the worst card or something you can play first. If you have to -2 you can pick a counter or something...

Also some TA lists played a single loam which should come in if liliana is played.

Still I think Innistrad has to bring a very good black removal/discard with flashback that can be played in TA to make liliana good!

And "gameplan wise" I think liliana is better in BUG control than TA..
Gonna test anyway!

catmint

09-05-2011, 05:43 AM

Purgatory

09-05-2011, 06:12 AM

Regarding Liliana/Library: Very good point, however, in the list above Liliana is a 2-of and the Library is a singleton, there will not be many games where one is able to land both. It's true that they have good synergy, but if they are to be abused together, I say that one would need more copies of each, and then you might just as well not really play TA anymore...

Neffy

09-06-2011, 07:19 AM

The final decklist looks like this:

4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Tombstalker
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Misstep
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
2 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Ponder
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Marsh Flats
4 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
2 Scrubland

Sideboard:
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Perish
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Darkblast
2 Thoughtseize
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Vendilion Clique

Better removal, arguably better creatures, and immunity to Perish. The only thing this gives up is Deed and Loam. Deed isn't as important with Tribal losing popularity, and Loam can be substituted with Crucible, but I wanted a third Clique someone in the 75 and this looked like a good spot.

Im trying to build the Final Fantasy version of TA too, and I have a question about darkblast in this deck.
Is 1 SB enough? chance of hitting it early turns to put down nobles, etc are not great compared to 2..
Also - is DB good enough without goyf in the deck? I usually ran 2 SB or 1 SB and 1 MD and supported my attacking goyf with them, so enemy goyfs would go down.. that is one of the great strategics of DB, imo..

Hope you or anyone else have some comments for this, thanks

A

Julian23

09-06-2011, 07:39 AM

@Neffy: What does "the Final Fantasy version of TA" mean? "Final Fantasy" in Mtg context usually refers to the combo of Final Fortune on a Scepter+Platinum Angel.

Neffy

09-06-2011, 07:56 AM

@Neffy: What does "the Final Fantasy version of TA" mean? "Final Fantasy" in Mtg context usually refers to the combo of Final Fortune on a Scepter+Platinum Angel.

It refers to wcm8's deck name posted on page 73 of this thread.. the name is not official at all, it just sticks really well to the feel of the deck imo.. and i assumed most of people reading this thread read his post too :)

So FF is BUW team america, with white completely substituting green (according to me).. lol

oldbsturgeon

09-06-2011, 08:56 AM

There is actually a completely seperate thread for the esper-america deck now. You may have to check a few thread pages back, but it's there now.
The idea was to keep both idea's seperate as the deck can function quite differently.

Neffy

09-06-2011, 09:16 AM

wcm8

09-06-2011, 10:19 AM

Not too much to add to the thread at the moment, but I will say that the new Liliana has some potential as a secondary removal option that also functions somewhat well against opposing control decks. If you view her as kind of like a mini-Consuming Vapors (Edict, then soak up some damage on the backswing), she's really not that bad in aggro matchups, and in control matchups she can help grind out an advantage if the game goes long. She's also +1 to Tarmogoyf which can be relevant. The only issue is she costs 3 and is sorcery speed, so you'd want to play her alongside Dismember/GftT/Ghastly Demise. I may cut a Maelstrom Pulse or two in the main to test her out.

Snapcaster Mage on the other hand, I don't think really fits in this deck. MAYBE as a 2-of? In the main he seems a bit too clunky for the gameplan, and there are better sideboard options for every particular matchup -- not to mention a lot of opponents will be siding in some graveyard hate to try to fight your Goyfs and Stalkers (usually it doesn't matter, but a t1 Relic can be incredibly annoying). I think he'd be awesome in a more dedicated control deck like Stoneblade or Deedstill, but I'm not sure tempo-style TA can really utilize him as well.

blaat

09-06-2011, 11:05 AM

Was thinking about how Snapcaster would do in this deck.
But in the end, Clique >>> snapcaster, for the reason of being an evasive clock and really doing something NOW. Also snapcaster needs a relevant card in the grave, which often ends up being eaten by TS. And if you really want to play brainstorm twice, add a ponder instead of snapcaster imho.

reev_

09-06-2011, 07:29 PM

Im playing
2 tropical island
3 underground sea
1 bayou
1 island
1 swamp
4 polluted delta
4 misty rainforest
4 wastelands

4 tarmogoyf
3 tombstalker
2 vendilion clique

4 stifle
4 brainstorm
2 ponder
4 force of will
4 mental misstep
3 daze
4 hymn to tourach
3 go for the throat
2 diabolic edict
1 pernicious deed

sb:
3 submerge
3 pernicious deed
3 extirpate
2~3 krosan grip
3~4 field call slots (lot of zoo; any suggestion?)

My fields is basicly sneak show combo, merfolk, zoo. Theres rock and NO rug too.

anyone help is welcome.

(i thinking perish to get NO, skeak and zoo. And What we do against merfolk? just cry?)

reev_

09-06-2011, 07:32 PM

keys

09-06-2011, 07:52 PM

but snapecaster can do something NOW too imo. fow, daze, mm. also 1cc like bs or stifle.

You can't use alternate casting costs to pay for flashback. Snapcaster Mage reads: "The flashback cost is equal to its mana cost."

GtF

09-06-2011, 07:58 PM

Doesn't seem like snapcaster or liliana really have a place in this deck to me. Maybe Liliana out of the board, but seems unlikely.

wcm8

09-06-2011, 08:01 PM

but snapecaster can do something NOW too imo. fow, daze, mm. also 1cc like bs or stifle.

Negative. You can't pay alternative costs for Daze or FoW, only the flashback cost which = mana cost. Misstep can still be applicable though, since it retains its phyrexian mana cost.

Completely unrelated, but here's a scan of my favorite Tombstalker -- signed by the TA creator/developer himself, Dan Signorigni. (I also have one signed by the artist, but it's so much better to land the final points of damage with 'Dan'.) :P /end dorky fanboyism

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii26/wcm8/photo.jpg

Zilla

09-06-2011, 08:03 PM

(What we do against merfolk? just cry?)
Pretty much, unless you want to drop green and go white for the Stoneforge package.

wcm8

09-06-2011, 08:06 PM

Pretty much, unless you want to drop green and go white for the Stoneforge package.

Or you can load up on SB removal. I've done fine against Merfolk by playing 3 Pernicious Deed, 3 Ghastly Demise, and then an additional 1 or 2 instant speed 2cmc removals in the board (GftT, Smother, whatever really). FWIW, I've mulled to 5 on the play in a game 3 against Merfolk and won since I was able to blow him out with Deed. Could be he was just a noob, I don't know. Many merfolk players are ;]

Goddik

09-07-2011, 02:38 AM

What WCM8 said: The Merfolk matchup is quite good if you have the right sideboard and he doesnt play standstill (which few do nowadays). Just make sure to test postboard games.

Zilla

09-07-2011, 03:22 AM

Duly noted. Out of curiosity, why does no one ever run Engineered Explosives in TA? It obviously doesn't play that great with goyf, but it's a wrecking ball against Merfolk and Zoo. Deed is more comprehensive, but it's also slower in the matchups where that extra turn or two really matters.

Goddik

09-07-2011, 06:52 AM

explosives is better against zoo, but merfolk is the greater problem. Deed also wins some matchups singlehandedly whereas explosives is just a clunky ghastly demise that sometimes comes with a bonus. It has been played before in heavy zoo times, it is definately an option, but i think deed is better.

reev_

09-07-2011, 03:29 PM

Do you guys test Llawan in TA sb? how it work if you test it?

sdematt

09-07-2011, 03:47 PM

Well, 'Folk has Dismember. How awkward. Right now, I'd run Deed for Folk, tbh.

My list thus far. I've really enjoyed playing it.

3 Underground Sea
3 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Island
8 Fetches
22

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Tombstalker
13

3 Stifle
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Mental Misstep
3 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Smother
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Jace, the Mind Scultor
2 Sylvan Library
26

SIDEBOARD:

2 Perish
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Extirpate
2 Spell Pierce
2 Submerge
2 Pernicious Deed

-Matt

Plague Sliver

09-07-2011, 04:20 PM

Looks good Matt, but I prefer a stronger tempo game. And I like 4-ofs :) I'll have to try the Bob list soon, though.

My current list:

4x Tarmogoyf
3x Tombstalker
2x Vendilion Clique

4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Mental Misstep
4x Stifle
4x Daze

4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Dismember
2x Go for the Throat

2x Sylvan Library

4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Polluted Delta
1x Misty Rainforest
4x Underground Sea
2x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
1x Swamp

Sideboard:

3x Spell Pierce
2x Submerge
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Pernicious Deed
2x Perish
4x Leyline of the Void

wcm8

09-07-2011, 04:52 PM

As long as we're posting lists, here's my current build:

20 Lands (9 fetch, 7 duals, 4 wastes)
4 Goyf
4 Stalker
4 FoW
4 Brainstorm
4 MMisstep
4 Hymn
4 Stifle
4 Ponder
3 Daze
2 Dismember
2 Maelstrom Pulse / occasionally Snuff Out
1 Sylvan Library

SB:
2 Jace TMS
2 Thoughtseize
2 Perish
3 Ghastly Demise
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Darkblast
2 Seal of Primordium

SB is sometimes up in the air, cards like LftL, Spell Pierce, Sower of Temptation, and so on are in consideration depending on the expected metagame.

Goddik

09-07-2011, 05:05 PM

like@ WCM8's list except for the pulses/snuff out where i would play GFT/smother/edicts just to lower the curve/ avoid the pain of both snuff and dismember

Tombstalker

09-07-2011, 06:33 PM

I have been noticing that lately Ponder has been replaced with more business cards like library, jace, more removal or even spell pierce. I think this is a good change in my experience and one that is overdue in TA compared to NO RUG, BUG landstill and stoneblade who all eschew ponder for more business spells. Initially I felt ponder was essential but I've found the opposite is actually true.
Anyway I guess the point is maybe its time to re evaluate some other longstanding choices in light of the current DTB and see what we may find. For example and dont hang me for saying this but hymn isn't what it used to be right now. I absolutely love hymn and always will but many decks can now shrug off what used to be a crippling blow due to massive CA. This is one of the reasons I've begun testing liliana of the veil in place of the 4th hymn. Anyway something came up il finish this thought later..

GtF

09-07-2011, 10:38 PM

I've said this before but I never liked hymn in this deck very much. I've been playing thoughtseize to good effect for a long time now. The fact that it costs half as much and hits anything you want I've found to be more important in a deck like this than the card advantage. However I do still like ponder and wouldn't cut them, so I am in the minority on these things I suppose. In response to an earlier post about engineered explosives, I've been playing 1-of in the main for a while and have really liked it. It's a versatile answer to a lot of things but has gotten worse as more midrange decks have started to crop up. Back when people were playing things like stax it was amazing, it's also insane against affinity (but so is deed). However there are decks where it's completely dead so that has made me move away from it.

Zilla

09-07-2011, 11:46 PM

Hymn just wins games by itself. It also dodges Misstep. Probably most importantly, it can hit lands, which compliments the Wasteland / Stifle strategy very nicely.

I think Thoughtsieze is better in decks that a) have problems with combo (which TA obviously doesn't) and b) in decks which have a specific combo of their own to protect, which TA also doesn't.

I've also been feeling like Ponder is pretty underwhelming. It's at odds with Stifle, and it doesn't really feel like it jives with TA's extraordinarily aggressive game plan. It feels like I pitch it to FoW more often than I actually cast it. I've been running 2 for awhile, but have been tempted to drop them entirely.

blaat

09-08-2011, 02:39 AM

Hi guys, I need some help with my SB strategy.

Currently, my meta has a lot of different decks.

Decks that seem to be always there:
- NO RUG/PRO/Bant
- Zoo
- ANT
- Stoneblade / stoneblade merfolk?
- Sneak attack
- Dredge

Also there will be sometimes any of these decks:
- Merfolk
- Reanimator
- Pattern

I was thinking about the following:

2-3 Perish, for zoo/NO decks
3-4 additional 1for1 removal spells, like dismember, edict, GFTT, snuff out etc (run all 4 maindeck, 1 offs.
1 Llawan cephalid empress (is this still relevant with merfolk having dismember?) also prolly good versus Progenitus, Reanimator.
2 Darkblast for random goyf wins, mana dudes etc.
2 Deed, mass removal
1 Grip, just in case
2 Submerge, dunno about this one, maybe better to run M. Pulse?
1 E. explosives

wcm8

09-08-2011, 08:57 AM

I would bring something like the following:
2 Perish [zoo, bant, RUG]
1 Darkblast [RUG, actually somewhat good vs. dredge]
3 Diabolic Edict [any creature deck, reanimator, sneak attack]
3 Spell Pierce [all the combo decks, can be useful against zoo]
2 Pernicious Deed [creature decks, dredge]
1 Krosan Grip [stoneblade, maybe sneak attack?]
3 flex slots -- maybe graveyard hate, since it seems like you have enough of it in your meta to justify it. Tormod's Crypt is probably the best option. Or you can go with additional removal like some Ghastly demises and maybe the 3rd Deed.

AggroSteve

09-08-2011, 02:46 PM

or nihil spellbomb instead of tormods crypt, i like the spellbomb better for the cantrip effect

Capitalization and punctuation please. Thanks. -zilla

kingsey

09-08-2011, 08:26 PM

Zilla

09-08-2011, 11:24 PM

Has anyone done serious testing with switching hymn with sinkhole to go full out against lands. Seems the format isnt a vial heavy anymore, or is it just my area?:confused:
Sinkhole used to be a staple in the deck. It's certainly playable in the right environment. Some people like have tried a 3/3 split between Hymn and Sinkhole.

Personally, I'm not a hige fan of it, because in certain games it's just a very weak card. Against Merfolk, for example, your Wastelands and Stifles are meaningless, so you have no way to bolster Sinkhole's mana denial strategy against them.

Hymn is never weak in the early game, which is the most crucial part for a tempo deck like TA. That doesn't mean it's always the correct choice, but I prefer it for that reason.

Tombstalker

09-11-2011, 03:27 PM

So Ive been thinking and I had a sudden epiphany...Bare with me on this. We are primarily a tempo deck so if the game goes late we will most likely lose, this much is a given. It is also well known that our disruption package is largely ineffective against aggro strategies. What I propose would not change that. Instead I propose we go "all in" so to speak with tempo. What am I getting at? Drop hymn for thoughtseize. Then, drop all other extranious stuff for 4 surgical extraction(free)/extirpate(unstoppable).

Ya thats right, full suite of 12 free counters + stifle/wasteland and thoughtseize + surgical/extirpate for a total of 28-30 pieces of disruption. Crazy? maybe, but t1 thoughtseize/stifle/wasteland + extracting can save us a huge headache against decks like landstill, blade control, etc. Yes they are dead late game, but id argue less so than hymn is as we can still hit something. They also feed tombstalker nicely.
T1 = goodbye jace, SFM, standstill/incestral recall (har har), Hivemind/SNT! Plus pesky waste/fetchlands or annoying CA engines. It also gives us a mainboard answer to dredge. Obviously it still sucks vs. aggro but what can I say so does most of our deck.

Caveat: Ive been drinking..heavily. Fucking dirty birds! I hate them...That aside I think this may be worth testing, seriously. Also with the lower curve maxing out at 2cc perhaps we could reduce our land count slightly and find a way to shoehorn in more targeted discard and more extract effects? IDK, what say you TS members?

So something like thus:

Team America (60)

Creatures 8
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker

Permission 12
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
4 Daze

Disruption 14
4 Stifle
4 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
4 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate

Draw 4
4 Brainstorm

Removal 3
3 Dismember

Lands 19
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou

Tombstalker

09-11-2011, 04:29 PM

Edit- disregard previous post I'm sober now, heh sorry bout that folks.

Neffy

09-13-2011, 10:24 AM

Im playing a list with atm containing 22 lands, 2 jace, 1 sylvan library and 8 beaters (+ the rest...)

Usually i play with the library OR jace, and not both at the same time. Does anyone have any experience with this? Isnt the library almost useless when jace's brainstorm does its thang?

Also I was pondering about swapping out the library for 1 phyrexian metamorph since i think it fits the tempo role pretty good, copying a tarmogoyf or especially tombstalker..
Also, its good against progenitus and emrakul, jitte, clique, gitaxian all those things.

Typically it would be used in the SB against NO RUG, SnT, etc, but couldn't it fit in the MD? as a one of.

Hope to see some comments.
thanks,
Neff

catmint

09-13-2011, 11:18 AM

I compare library more to Ponder than to Jace. Bigger investment than Ponder, but more value.

Jace on the other hand only comes down if we get to 4 lands and did not win yet. So he is not a part of the "original" TA plan and more of an alternate win condition or a way to turn games around.

wcm8

09-13-2011, 11:46 AM

There has been some talk about the B/R updates coming on the 20th, and all signs seem to be pointing towards a certain spell getting the hammer... -IF- mental misstep gets banned on the 20th, I think TA will remain well positioned in the metagame, perhaps even moreso. If goblins re-enters the format as a DTB, TA is probably the best blue deck against it thanks to Stifle, Daze, and Snuff Out/Dismember. Darkblast in the SB is also a house. If Countertop comes back as a control strategy, we typically crush those sort of decks. Merfolk and Zoo will always be difficult, but the matchup can be mitigated with a proper sideboard. And of course, if fast combo comes out of the woodwork again, we are THE combo slayer deck.

I'm honestly hoping for MM to be banned, first of all for format diversity, and secondly to better position my favorite deck. Opening those four slots also allows for a little more creative leeway for deck contruction -- you can fit in the 4th Daze if you haven't already, fit in a couple additional cantrips such as Predict, or additional removal or counterspells, or maybe some Vendillion Cliques.

edit: I just saw the spoiler for Delver of Secrets. It *may* be good enough to drop green entirely and run TA as purely blue/black, or consider an alternative splash color. A 3/2 flyer for 1 is not too shabby... it just opens you up to red removal. This guy can start crashing in for 3 by turn 2 while you continue disrupting your opponent with tempo cards. It does have tension as a 1-drop though -- do you hold up mana for stifle, ponder into a more relevant turn 2 play, or go all in on 'lightning bolting' your opponent every turn? The upkeep ability on the pre-transformed side can also be somewhat relevant if you have a fetchland out (to draw something else) or are playing Predict (to draw 2 for 2 and help feed early Tombstalkers). The card will need to be tested for sure.

nitewolf9

09-13-2011, 01:26 PM

Delver seems weak to me. If Mental Misstep is banned, and this seems likely, Zoo will probably be making a comeback. I don't like having 1/2 of my threat base die to a Grim Lavamancer activation, let alone a Lightning Bolt. This also applies to NORUG, and it is also nice when you can deal with their Goyfs outside of combat while they can't do the same.

Post MM banning this deck does seem to get better. This is especially true as I feel Zoo is actually a good matchup. Hymn is backbreaking, and more removal out of the board is very bad for them. After the prospective banning I would try a full set of the original disruption (Hymn, Daze, Stifle, Force) and then go from there, probably adding a couple of Sylvan Libraries and going up to 6 removal spells main (Explosives would be the first thing to go back in...).

GtF

09-13-2011, 02:17 PM

Delver is weaksauce.

If MM were banned, it would be fantastic for this deck - more goblins, less and worse merfolk. Now that I'm onboard the jace train, the fact that it's easier for swords to hit our creatures isn't even that much of a concern.

nitewolf9

09-13-2011, 02:39 PM

Actually, those 4 new spots should probably initially be Snapcaster Mage. I think that guy could be really good in this deck. Even with Tombstalker.

wcm8

09-13-2011, 02:44 PM

Yeah, on second consideration, Delver is far too situational and doesn't provide the same benefits as Goyf (ie: being a wall against aggro decks until you can gain board advantage). It would also be a terrible topdeck, whereas I've rarely been unhappy to draw more Goyfs. And green SB options address some of the weaknesses that black/blue have on their own.

Snapcaster could work to increase threat density and reuse our spells, but it seems like the deck is mostly centered around operating on only two mana.. bringing Snaps into the mix may make the deck want to move into a more controlling direction with more lands, maybe MD Jace, etc. I'd like to test it but not sure if the deck would need some reconfiguration, a straight 1:1 replacement of MM:Snapcaster seems bad at first glance.

Tombstalker

09-13-2011, 05:03 PM

I for one hope nothing else gets banned and I doing see the necessity of banning anything, even SNT or brainstorm let alone mms. However if for some reason mms is banned I would consider thoughtseize main again. Hell its been looking as good as/better than hymn lately.

Re: sylvan library- I agree with catmint on counting it as a ponder but I play my libraries more like hymns #5-6, which is to say aggressively. T2 hymn can be back breaking but so can t2 library with daze backup and especially if you can win a counter war to establish it then refuel. I love library because it ups the number of must stop t2 plays in the deck.

Re: snapcaster mage- I've been considering this and it seems worthy of testing a 1-2 of only, in place of ponder most likely (unless mms is banned of course). The funny part is that mms is probably one of the better targets for scm.

Goddik

09-13-2011, 07:45 PM

One thing to note is that the U/W mystic decks are unlikely to go away with a misstep banning.

On Snapcaster mage, he seems awesome in the deck. Brainstorm, stifle, hymn, thoughtseize, ponder, dismember. These are all cards that love to be rebought. He is probably not a four off, but people have run 2 off cliques in the past, so running a few "3" drops is not out of the question, even in the very low curve version, particularly if misstep goes to make room for more slots. With misstep i find it hard to make room for him, though i should perhaps just be more agressive. He provides a much needed threat to the deck with an added value bonus.

Goddik

09-15-2011, 07:57 AM

Btw, what are your thoughts on GerryT's newest build with visions?

JMLL

09-15-2011, 08:47 AM

For me it's a Control Deck using UBg colours. It stays clearly away from tempo and tries to win with CA and card quality. This means a different strategy and a completely different way to play the deck.

It shouldn't even be mixed with TA, as Tempo and winning in a small window of time is what this deck was about. Winning by controlling the game from a point in the game and until the end of time (may it be 5 or 40 turns) it's not the same.

Tombstalker

09-15-2011, 12:45 PM

While I do like some of the card choices from Gerry Ts list, overall it really just feels like a halfhearted control deck. For example tarmogoyf just seems wrong and more like a shout out to the decks former roots of TA.
I think he should have just went for a full on BUg landstill (visions) shell and dropped goyf/clique for more visions, deeds, jaces and countermagic and maybe squeezed in LftL + worm harvest etc.
Tombstalker still kicks ass here and clique might actually still belong although deed doesnt play well with clique. So I guess I do like his build but I think more of an "all in" approach to control would have netted him better results than this version. Lastly I also dont like his board to much.
Caveat: as always hes a better player than I so grain of salt :)

wcm8

09-15-2011, 01:05 PM

^^I disagree. Having played Deedstill a fair amount, I can say that 'BUG Control' is a better deck for just about any given tournament. Deedstill seems to be very much a metagame specific deck. I think it is better to throw out some threats and make your opponent worry about answering them, than to play some sort of glacially-slow reactive control deck with no real clock. Sure, you blank a lot of opponent's removal, but a lot of decks only run 4-5 removal slots in the MD anyways -- Goyf gets there in ways that Jace/Mishra's Factory don't. And woe be to you if you lose game 1 playing Deedstill... have fun trying to win games 2 and 3 in 50 minutes.

Now, comparing it to TA... well I personally like classic TA better, but I could see the merit in playing BUG Control in certain metagames. There is so much overlap in card selection that its possible for a game to be played out the exact same way playing both decks, but each deck attacks certain opposing strategies better.

Tombstalker

09-15-2011, 01:53 PM

wcm8- I hadnt really considered the time frame so point taken. I was wondering about goyf as a meta call but I am not a deedstill player so was unsure on this. Still this seems to be quite slow without the same density of board control that deedstill has. Id like to hear GTs thoughts on this vs the more traditional TA decks he has piloted in the past.

AggroSteve

09-15-2011, 02:45 PM

i cannot find a link, can someone post the list or a link please?

Mark Sun

09-15-2011, 02:57 PM

i cannot find a link, can someone post the list or a link please?

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=40711

Probably playing UBg again for now.

wcm8

09-15-2011, 03:03 PM

Maindeck:
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Brainstorm
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Dismember
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Ancestral Vision
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Diabolic Edict
3 Ghastly Demise
1 Nature's Claim
2 Spell Pierce
1 Ancestral Vision
1 Consuming Vapors
2 Thoughtseize

Worth testing, I certainly would rather play this than Deedstill.

Krondo9

09-16-2011, 03:52 AM

I've been testing this deck all day on cockatrice. While facing a handful of different decks, including Midrange Junk/Deadguy, NO RUG, NO Bant, reanimator, dredge, this deck does pretty well. It definitely beats on combo, obviously, but it has plenty of removal to deal with midrange as well. I have been told that this deck struggles against merfolk and zoo, but I have yet to test it. Definitely very solid, and this is coming from a NO RUG player as well :)

catmint

09-16-2011, 04:30 AM

I also want to test it.

Did you read this article: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/22780_Eternal_Europe_Hybrids_The_Future_Today.html

Gerrys deck looks like a hybridization to me...

CaBaaL

09-16-2011, 06:36 AM

this looks (close) to an old list but it had dark confidants instead of visions. I guess the meta is slow enough to draw 3 cards from visions and hard enough for bob to survive for 3 rounds

Dxfiler

09-19-2011, 11:59 PM

Hi :smile:

This is the Team America I lent out to my friend Mike Dalton. He ended up winning my 30 player legacy event with it. Tournament thread with full top 4 decklists here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21853-9-18-Lincoln-RI-Sunday-Legacy-at-Die-Hard-Games!-4-Sea-Volc-Plateau-Sav-20!

2 Go for the Throat
2 Terravore
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Jace TMS
3 Mental Misstep
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Hymn To Tourach
2 Speel Snare
2 Stifle
2 Daze

1 Verdant
4 Misty
4 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland
4 U. Sea
3 Trop Island
3 Bayou

SB: 3 Nihil Spellbomb
2 K. Grip
2 Consuking Vapors
2 Ghastly Demise
2 LLawan
2 Thoughtseize
1 Go for the Throat
1 Engineered Explosives

Pretty conventional list. We had thoughtseize main but switched it with stifles. He wasn't happy with stifle either. We'll probably add a 4th misstep and a misdirection in place.

The sideboard was money for him all day. Alot of anti-creature cards gives him a fighting chance against zoo, but it's still a horrible matchup and he got lucky dodging it all day.

I used to have Tombstalker over Terravore, but you really can't afford flipping one off confidant and terravore isnt that much worse than tombstalker as it's always at least a 5/5, and usually alot bigger. The trample comes in handy :cool:

I like Team America alot. Always have. I think zoo is almost unwinnable and Combo isn't fantastic either with a good player behind it, but almost every other match for major decks is 50/50 or better.

Thanks for looking and take care!

- Dave

wcm8

09-20-2011, 12:07 AM

As predicted, mental misstep has gotten the banhammer. I think this ultimately benefits our deck, because now we can stifle with impunity ;)

Actually, the real benefit is going to be from the inevitable metagame shift this causes. Decks like goblins and countertop may come back in force, and those are easy enough matchups with the right build.

Jeff

09-20-2011, 12:33 AM

Plus it opens up 4 more slots in the deck . . . I was really tired of starting every build with the same 12 blue cards . . .

It does seem like time to bring back Stifle, thats for sure. Also probably time to pack up my Ancestral Visions, which had been quite a bit of fun the last 2 weeks but won't survive the onslaught that is a slightly speedier format.

Is it time to go back to 4ofs TA?

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Removal Spells
4 Hymn to Tourach

2 Predict
2 ?? (EE/Library/something?)

4 Waste
4 Underground
2 Trop
2 Bayou
8 Fetch

J

Worm1605

09-20-2011, 02:17 AM

Zilla

09-20-2011, 02:23 AM

The ban is stupid and it hurts this deck more than anything. Keeping your opponent on T1/T2 is the whole goal. Now instead of trying to develop the meta to push certain cards out of prominence lets just ban everything!
I don't think you're right. I'm not happy they banned Misstep, but it's going to benefit Team America. It makes Stifle more reliable, which is big. But more importantly it's going to make Storm combo a much bigger metagame presence, and any time combo gets stronger, Team America also gets stronger, because it's a natural predator to combo.

Anyway, what do we do with those 4 extra slots? Does Snapcaster deserve a 2 or 3-of spot in the deck now that Misstep is gone? Recurring Brainstorm is nice, but in the faster tempo version of the deck I think it's probably unnecessary and/or too slow. Am I wrong about that?

Also, with the format inevitably getting faster without Misstep in the picture, does Clique become too slow in the tempo build? I've been running them as a 2-of and I really like the added disruption/threat density, but I'm not sure if they're still going to be worth it.

xfxf

09-20-2011, 04:56 AM

I guess aggro matchup is gone out of the window for Team America? Let's hope combo comes back to punish MM whiners in full force :)

Krondo9

09-20-2011, 05:17 AM

If we follow Gerry T's list for aggro I think we should be fine. He runs 3 deeds and 3 ghastly demises. With NO RUG gone, I think we can swap diabolic edicts for go for the throats. I think this deck is solid against aggro with all the removal, as well as consuming vapors as a lategame bomb. This, combined with our heavy discard as well as creatures, pits us fine against aggro.

catmint

09-20-2011, 05:41 AM

Of course we have to hope for combo heavy meta.
We are not interested in a 2/1 body and flashbacking black removal is not as attractive as swords, so I don't think snapcaster is interesting. We also run daze instead of snare

What I am thinking about is bringing thoughtseize back and curving out with liliana and vendilion clique.

In a tempo orientied build where we emtpy our hand I would like to try liliana. She and 1-2 creatures should often ride us to victory. Liliana is good versus combo and creatures decks and we can break the symmetry by either having bad spells in the mid - late game or by just by playing them. I am more worried about Goblins, since they also want to make a comeback. Therefore 5 MD removal spells + 2 thoughtseize could be an option. Concerning removal I thing Ghastly Demise (2 MD - 2 SB) will be much better than they used to be to take out early goblins or merfolks.

I hope the TA community will go through some heavy testing to post the right answers for the different decks/meta's.

Purgatory

09-20-2011, 06:41 AM

Here's what I'm planning to test, just brewing up a quick non-MM build, based on what I used to play before:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain

4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Dismember

SB:
1 Spell Pierce
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Submerge
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus

It's a shame that Darkblast (the house!) will not be as powerful catch-all against NO RUG (and other NO decks for that matter), but I suppose if people keep playing GSZ for Arbor and manadorks, I'll go back to 2 Darkblasts in the side :)

Neffy

09-20-2011, 06:42 AM

With NO RUG gone [...]

This might be a stupid question but why would NO RUG go away?
I imagine it will be stronger since we can not MM noble/BS to keep them off mana?

Also, is Jace 2.0 less good now without MM in TA? I imagine that alot of aggro creatures and fast beaters will get online, before he ever can do anything great for this deck? (Assuming we dont hymn off their creatures and dont draw our removal ^^)

Purgatory

09-20-2011, 06:47 AM

This might be a stupid question but why would NO RUG go away?
I imagine it will be stronger since we can not MM noble/BS to keep them off mana?

It's true and I'm just making an assumption, I just figured that since MM is gone, Aggro (particularly Zoo and Goblins) will get stronger and prey on slower midrange decks like NO RUG. Not saying it's gone (I know, I did :P), but I think it will be in a worse position after the ripples from the banning has settled.

xfxf

09-20-2011, 07:25 AM

Well NO RUG and NO BANT can still have a 3rd turn Progeniuts and attack on turn 4..But I'm curious to see how they will handle the rush from Goblins and Zoo until turn 4.

I think if you are playing a tempo deck you will either go with Canadian Thresh which is stronger against aggro or Team America which is stronger against combo post MM.

Goddik

09-20-2011, 09:30 AM

The main challenges for a traditional stifle build as i see them
-How to beat Hierarch decks without misstep (i suspect we want snuff out back)
-Keeping a good Fish matchup post board (this gets easier when you have 4 less cards to board out)
-High Tide (yes this is actually a combo deck we can lose to without preparation)
-Control and midrange matchups (Loam,Sylvan library, snapcaster, Liliana or something different to give value when the games go long)

I do think that either liliana or snapcaster could be the key to making Team America dominate.

Note that with misstep gone it gets significantly more difficult to keep our critters alive, particularly postboard when every deck brings in extra plows or submerges, i.e. The postboard plan of bringing in Jaces remains as important as it ever was.

Visions is still and option, i was doing fine with it pre-misstep, but it is probably inferior to a more focused build. Curving visions into hymn is not quite as atractive when you don't have misstep to make up for lost tempo.

Jeff

09-20-2011, 09:36 AM

for the High Tide matchup, remember that we're not exactly going back to where we were pre-misstep. They got Flusterstorm to protect the combo now, which is essentially a hard counter when they're going off.

I was having decent luck beating High Tide against really good players with Dispel and Thoughtseize out of the board before. If I keep stifles in to potentially stifle a flusterstorm trigger, candelabra trigger, or fetch, the matchup might not suck too much. Still gonna have to draw a beater early to do much against them.

J

wcm8

09-20-2011, 09:55 AM

This is my rough draft of a tempo build:

20 lands (9 fetch 7 dual 4 waste)
4 goyf
4 stalker
4 fow
4 daze
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 stifle
4 hymn
2 predict
1 sylvan library
5 metagamed removal:
2 snuff out/dismember
2 maelstrom pulse/gftt/e explosives
1 liliana of the veil (maybe...)

The sideboard would start out with:
3 ghastly demise
3 pernicious deed
3 spell pierce/thoughtseize

I'd expect to see goblins return, and so having removal that can answer a lackey on the draw is going to be important in winning this matchup. Combo decks should pose little trouble for us even without misstep. Zoo will remain a miserable matchup, and I'm not sure any amount of sideboarding is going to flip the favor our way.

Predict is an interesting card that I think warrants revisiting. Its easy to set up with the rest of the deck, and helps accelerate you into the first or multiple tombstalkers.

Snapcaster would be more of an end-game spell for us, since the best play would likely be flashing back a hymn. 4 mana at sorcery speed is not something this deck can really accomplish in most matchups, and as a sideboard card there are better options against control. But as with everything, it deserves some actual testing.

Liliana I think fits in nicely as a miser singleton. Like Sylvan Library, you'd hardly never be sad to see her, but you dont want multiples. She helps out against combo and control in the mid/late game, but also functions as a mediocre removal spell against aggro/midrange.

Tombstalker

09-20-2011, 10:02 AM

Damn that sucks. I predict it comes right back off the BR list next go round.
Anyway while I agree that the loss of MMS probably benefitted TA overall it did make our aggro matchup worse. Period.
As for NO RUG, it will NOT go away, in fact I see it becoming even stronger post MMS due to no answer to t1 hierarch/gsz.

A return of goblins and combo will benefit us but I believe merfolk also got a boost. Hell they might even start maindecking stifle if the environment is right, could you imagine the horror?
Ok probably not but just saying. I hope everyone who complained about MMS gets their asses kicked in the "new" old meta while wishing they were holding a misstep.

For TA my line of thinking is similar to Catmint's with more removal (5 main or 4 + 2 liliana) and curving into clique/liliana. I do think liliana will replace jace main due to format speed and the higher daze count.

Im not sure I like ghastly demise main though, especially if running the full playset of tombstalkers. Ive tried it in the past and have lost games due to it. I guess it just depends but I dont see KotR going anywhere.

Jeff

09-20-2011, 10:03 AM

What does this do to the stoneforge/batterskull/jace/visions decks? I've been maindecking Putrefy as my removal of choice for a while, just so I'd have an instant speed answer to batterskull and SoFaF, thoughts on whether that will still be necessary? I'd like to go back to cheaper removal

xfxf

09-20-2011, 10:40 AM

I hope everyone who complained about MMS gets their asses kicked in the "new" old meta while wishing they were holding a misstep.

This. :laugh:

Jeff,
I think that UW SFM/Jace decks will be pretty much dead or transform into something totally different because without mental misstep they can't stop the hordes of small critters from fast aggro decks nor can protect SFM from lightning bolt/stp/innocent blood as easily as they used to.

Jeff

09-20-2011, 10:49 AM

Kinda what I expected. It'll be nice to get back to my cheap spells.

I don't think most TA players who were complaining about MMS were complaining about it's role in the deck, but more it's role in the format. I mean, seriously how much fun were the endless games of "brainstorm" "Misstep" "misstep your misstep" "misstep your misstep"

I was tired of every viable deck being blue . . . . . it'll be nice to see some difference in the format, and I for one don't necessarily think it's a bad thing if there is some combo in the format too, which there really hasn't been.

J

catmint

09-20-2011, 10:58 AM

Maybe its the best, but I dont like to just put 4 of every card and call it a deck. With the new options I want to at least try to be creative. Maybe we can give snapcaster a try running ghastly demise as removal and flashing back a thoughtseize/hymn can also be very good!.

I think of snapcaster for ghastly mostly in merfolk and goblin matshup where this play can be a nice 2 for 1 flashing it in and blocking. Running 4 Stalker... I dont know. I dont need it on the starting hand and I don't need multiples. 2 is enough I think, so the ghastly demise plan can work out.

I would like to test something like this:

21 land

Win
4 Goyf
2 Stalker
2 V-Clique

Utility
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Snapcaster Mage

Disruption
2 Liliana
4 Stifle
4 FoW
3 Daze
2 Thoughtseize
2 Dismember
2 Ghastly Demise
4 Hymn to tourach

With liliana counting as removal and the ability to flashback demise with mage, I feel good about the removal package.

Concerning sidebaord I would like to have
2 more ghastly demise to abuse snapcaster mage
2 smother or 2 edict
2 deed
2 Krosan Grip for Equipments, Countertop and painted stone
2 Null Rod for combo, equipments, vial, painted stone and SD.top
2 Spell Pierce or 2 Duress
3 Extirpate: Lands, Dredge coming back, helps versus combo -> abuseabel with snapcaster mage

colo

09-20-2011, 11:33 AM

I really don't see Snapcaster Mage being a fit for Team America. Its body is obviously fragile, and it may enable you to play one or (maybe - look at this deck's mana development) two instants/sorceries from your yard, at the cost of exiling them (both hurting yet-uncasted Tombstalkers) afterwards. There might be some merit in re-using cantrips, but I'd rather have a solid draw-two off a Predict, or an additional Sylvan Library for its CMC I guess.

I do believe the 2-2 split of Tombstalker and Clique to be wrong. That has to be 3-2 in my opinion (4-2 is very debatable otoh) - you inevitably do want to have a Tombstalker in every one of your games, so a two-of won't cut it.

Tombstalker

09-20-2011, 06:59 PM

21 land

Win
4 Goyf
2 Stalker
2 V-Clique

Utility
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Snapcaster Mage

Disruption
2 Liliana
4 Stifle
4 FoW
3 Daze
2 Thoughtseize
2 Dismember
2 Ghastly Demise
4 Hymn to tourach

I like the shell you have but I think you need a couple more counter spells for a proper counter wall. Only some testing will prove if this is true or not I know. Also while I think snapcaster mage (now SCM) is worth testing, I think I would rather make room for the 3rd tombstalker before including these although you could drop to 20 lands pretty easily in this build I think. The bad part about more than 2 tombstalkers is obviously the dissynergy with ghastly demise, but I still think tombstalkers are a 3-of if you want to play any (and I think we all do).

With the banning of MMS I am really considering dropping hymn for sinkhole and maxing out thoughtseize like the original list. Ive only tested slightly with proxy sinkholes and I never really liked them as much as hymn though so idk.

Rust

09-20-2011, 07:08 PM

Here's my dilemma:

Here's my list

4 Underground sea
2 Tropical island
1 bayou
4 verdant catacombs
4 misty rainforest
1 island
4 wasteland

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Force of will
4 Daze
4 Mental misstep
3 stifle

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

4 Hymn to tourach
3 Dismember
2 Smother

My question is how can I replace the 4 MM? I was thinking:
+1 Sylvan library
+3 Thoughtseize
or
+1 sylvan library
+1 Darkblast
+2 Pernicious deed.

I need help here, any opinions are appreciated

Zilla

09-20-2011, 07:28 PM

I think Deed isn't a good maindeck choice in the faster tempo builds. It definitely belongs in the board, but unless you're running Confidant/Jace in the main, I don't think you want Deed main either.

Personally I'd run the 4th Stifle at the very least. It's a card you absolutely want to see on the first turn of almost every game, and it's rarely bad to see in multiples. Aside from that, I'd try 1 or 2 Libraries, possibly the 4th Ponder, and either Spell Pierce or Thoughtsieze for the remaining slots.

Rust

09-20-2011, 08:33 PM

I was thinking that I need something that could help against super aggressive builds in my MD, with adding the 4th stifle and 1 library what would help against aggro in 2 slots? Perhaps 1 darkblast and a ponder? Suggestions in that regard?

Tombstalker

09-20-2011, 08:51 PM

Team America (60)

Creatures 9
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
2 Vendilion Clique

Plainswalkers 2
2 Liliana of the Veil

Permission 10
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce

Disruption 10
4 Stifle
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach

Cantrips 6
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

Removal 3
3 Dismember

Lands 20
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou

Im thinking something like this, which is very close to what ive been testing with anyway. I go back and forth on the 2nd Liliana vs. Sylvan Library and sometimes I run all 3. Without MMS I think we may need to increase the Ponder count again, both to feed tombstalker and to shuffle away dead draws as the amount of conditional cards we run may have increased without missteps.

On another note, I made a bad post a few pages back about testing Surgical Extraction maindeck. Now that misstep is gone and the format will speed up again I wonder if this would be worth testing afterall. Hear me out.

Cons:
-Doesnt affect the board state
-Is often card disadvantage
-Phyrexian life tax can add up
-Sucks against redundant aggro strategies (like much of TAs cards already)

Pros:
-Permanently eliminates win conditions nabbed by discard/counter spells
-Can be a tempo play in certain circumstances
-Feeds tombstalker for "free"
-Can occassionally take cards from opponents hand (making thoughtseize into a flashback cabal therapy)
-No more mental misstep
-Would make TA even better vs combo
-Acts similar to misstep by removing opposing counterspells permanently

So there it is. I did limited testing with this in conjunction with thoughtseize for a single day. I had great results and poor results too. One of the biggest factors however was not the card disadvantage but rather the combined life loss of this + misstep + thoughtseize making aggro matchups abyssmal, and also when I would get in a misstep war over a thoughtseize and such. Now however that cant happen and the deck has already proven it can handle the life loss of 4 phyrexian mana cards.
Anyway just a thought for some 'new tech'.

Edit: either way I think theres good arguments to play thoughtseize now alongside or in place of hymn since spell pierce will make a return and thoughtseize would allow us to leave mana open for spell pierce t2.

BlackStarDeceiver

09-21-2011, 02:07 AM

Surgical main seems fine if you hit a lot of Dredge and Combo (Intuition decks) and a lot of Tempo... Exiling the wasted Tropical is usually gg, giving the black versions the upper edge most of the time.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS

09-21-2011, 03:23 AM

Here's what I'm playing since the ban:

20 Land
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland

8 Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker

32 Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
3 Daze
2 Go for the Throat
2 Dismember
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library
1 Darkblast

15 Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Krosan Grip
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Flusterstorm
1 Life from the Loam
1 Darkblast

It's been pretty solid so far. I picked Flusterstorm over Spell Pierce in the board because typically anything I want to pierce, I can just pulse. But I'm not sure if that's correct though.

Input?

Edit: corrected the decklist

Purgatory

09-21-2011, 06:47 AM

"I picked Flusterstorm over Spell Pierce in the board because typically anything I want to pierce, I can just pulse. But I'm not sure if that's correct though."

I wouldn't do that, there are a number of problematic stuff that Pierce can deal with that Storm misses. Pierce can counter opposing Planeswalkers (specifically Jace TMS which is a nightmare if he resolves), defensive artifacts and enchantments, like Ghostly Prison, Propaganda, Ensnaring Bridge etc.

Above are just a few examples, Spell Pierce is an overall, much more versatile card. It deals with some issue permanents that TA traditionally has few maindeck, or sideboard, answers to - most obviously Planeswalkers. The only matchup where I'd want Flusterstorm over Spell Pierce is perhaps High Tide, and only then to counter my opponent's own Storms.

xfxf

09-21-2011, 08:09 AM

Purgatory

09-21-2011, 09:26 AM

Do you think we should take Jace TMS into consideration as much as we used to after the ban?

I've switched my list to a typical 20 lands 4of everything which gives me 2 flex slots like Zilla said. However I'm just not comfortable with Sylvan Library. We already have 4 Brainstorm and 4 Ponders. There are very few occasions when I draw Library, actually need to use it, tap 2 mana for it and have enough life to spend on drawing extra cards.

I will test him, at least. Since we now have less stable ways of protecting our threats from removal like StP, I think two Jace 2.0 might make it into my MD or at least SB.

I'm not keen on Sylvan Library myself, I'd much rather topdeck a Jace in mid-late game than a Library.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS

09-21-2011, 10:31 AM

I'm a fan of the miser's Sylvan Library. I really can't stand Jace being in the maindeck. Most games you don't need him, and the games you do -- you can typically bring him in game 2.

But that's just personal preference.

Theonlyone

09-21-2011, 03:59 PM

Does T.A. beat Stoneblade? Is the version of gerry Thompson with dark confidant still viable?

xfxf

09-21-2011, 04:08 PM

I'm going to try 2 more removals in MD (a total of 6) and see how that turns out. I think our maindeck is quite even against everything except aggro the way it so maybe 6 removal won't be too bad.

Rust

09-21-2011, 06:23 PM

any help on maindeck choices that would help against aggro?

Zilla

09-21-2011, 07:09 PM

any help on maindeck choices that would help against aggro?
See the post directly above yours. It depends on what aggro specifically, but 5-6 maindeck removal (some combination of Go for the Throat, Dismember, Smother, and Ghastly Demise) with 2 Deed in the board, 1-3 more spot removal of the same kind you already have in the main, and/or 2-3 Perish or Submerge and you're going to do pretty well against most aggro.

The deck does pretty well against most non-aggro decks, so it's not out of the question to just load up the board with creature hate for various aggro matchups.

SansSerif

09-21-2011, 08:14 PM

See the post directly above yours. It depends on what aggro specifically, but 5-6 maindeck removal (some combination of Go for the Throat, Dismember, Smother, and Ghastly Demise).

I like 1-2 copies of Snuff Out mixed in to help with tempo during the early game. I also agree with you about the possibility of running Ghasly Demise maindeck - it does seem better now that misstep is gone.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS

09-21-2011, 08:18 PM

So in the post-MMS world is Snuff Out or Dismember better for us?

Tombstalker

09-21-2011, 10:43 PM

I used to prefer snuff out but then I switched to dismember and up until now I didn't think id ever go back. However post ban snuff outs tempo boost may be more relevant and the life loss less so. Also if counter balance returns then snuff out would most likely be the better choice, unless of course we see a proliferation of TA that is :)

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS

09-21-2011, 10:47 PM

Yeah, I'm just expecting a lot of Team America mirror matches in the future. I'd rather my 4-slots all be able to hit Tombstalker and Bob.

BlackStarDeceiver

09-22-2011, 04:34 AM

Don't forget that Dismember might kill a resolved Magus of the Moon. I prefer Dismember, sometimes you just cast it and its fine, doesn't get blocked by Teeg either.

catmint

09-22-2011, 07:30 AM

Does T.A. beat Stoneblade? Is the version of gerry Thompson with dark confidant still viable?

This question does not make a lot of sense because we don't know yet how stoneblade evolves. In the MM area the matchup wsa problematic because hymn was not a really good card, due to man longer games.
My prediction is that TA will have a better matchup versus the new stoneblad or countertop, because thoughtseize, hymn, stifle got a lot better and Krosan Grip will help.

However every game will be a fight and TA is a very skill intensive deck. Takes a lot of practice and thinking to play it correctly (I know because I am still learning...)!

A version running dark confidant is a different approach that goes more into the direction of BUG control. Since Stifle makes a big comeback, we are all excited to run the tempo version of the deck with a 5/5 flyer for BB.

catmint

09-22-2011, 07:31 AM

Concerning Liliana:

I did not test too much so far, but I cast Liliana 5 Times. (2 times in Mirror, 1 Goblins, 1 Rock, 1 monoblack): It resulted in 3 wins and 2 scoops. On 4 of this 5 occasions I would not have been able to cast Jace. All 5 times I started with -2.

All situations were similar: Either close to an empty board or i also had a creature to protect her. I never had her in a situation where I was far behind where the opponent had 2 or more creatures than I had. In this case I guess also Jace does get us out too often, but she is at least a 3 mana sorcery speed edict/prevent x damage.

There were 2 situations where I had like 3 good cards and the opponent 1 or 2 cards, where I did not want to +1 her. That was kind of awkward - not sure if this situations will hurt in the future.

Problems I have with my build now is that I love thoughtseize, hymn, liliana, tombstalker and I am running out of blue cards. How low do you go with the blue card count postboard if you want to board out daze/stifle for removal?

wcm8

09-22-2011, 12:58 PM

Problems I have with my build now is that I love thoughtseize, hymn, liliana, tombstalker and I am running out of blue cards. How low do you go with the blue card count postboard if you want to board out daze/stifle for removal?

It really depends on the matchup, but for example in the Merfolk matchup I usually board out Force of Will so blue count doesn't matter. The only card they have that is of major concern is Back to Basics, and most lists don't seem to have been running it lately anyways. 16 is about the limit of how low you can go to somewhat reliably have a blue card to pitch, and if you're keeping in Daze, Ponder, Brainstorm, and FoW you should be good to go. Stifle is often the first to get boarded out, depending on the matchup.

And yes, I agree about Liliana being a bomb. I'm not sure yet if she should be run as a 1 or 2 of.

GtF

09-22-2011, 03:09 PM

Boarding out FOW is not out of the question. In most matchups where you are boarding in a lot of removal it might be right, though it sounds like ppl in this thread are playing much more removal maindeck and far fewer blue cards than I usually do.
In the misstep era, FOW was routinely one of the worst cards to draw for me, I was definitely considering cutting down to 3 maindeck, just because I got stranded with 1 in my hand so often. But now it will probably get much better.
Dismember vs. snuff out: The upside of dismember is that it can kill dark confidant and tombstalker (and magus of the moon I suppose). Snuff out can kill a lacky with more reliability (if you had to brainstorm into it for instance) and can kill a tarmogoyf/knight/random fattie more reliably. It's a judgment call, but overall I think dismember is a bit better. Having whichever you don't play main in your SB seems reasonable.

catmint

09-22-2011, 05:49 PM

Thanks for the advice on FoW. I guess we have to deal with some killer spells like back to basics/choke,... resolving if we load on removal versus creature decks. I think a build with 21 blue cards that can go down to 16-17 leaving FoW in sounds reasonable.

How do you play with Stifle/Daze/wasteland on the draw? Do you usually board out some stifle/daze or do you leave all dazes in if mana-denial is an important plan?

How do you feel about Null Rod. I love that card versus storm, affinity, forgemaster, CB-Top. HOwever I have not tested it versus vial decks. Do you have experience?

Jeff

09-22-2011, 05:52 PM

I love Null Rod, but it doesn't do anything against Vial decks. Don't worry about the vial, just let them take the card disadvantage from playing it and try to kill their creatures. Bring in Deed or EE to and let killing the Vial be incidental.

Daze comes out on the draw a lot of the time, Stifle depends on the deck. Against zoo, for example, stifle might come out on the draw, but only if that doesn't completely kill your blue count (or if you're pulling Forces), because you don't really have anything to do with stifle other than stop fetches. Against affinity or a jace deck, on the other hand, stifle does a lot of good lategame stuff so you can keep it in.

GtF

09-23-2011, 01:14 AM

I never cared much for null rod. Vs. vial decks it's not worth it, vs. storm I think the discard/counterspell plan is better, vs. affinity deed and EE are enough, don't know what forgemaster so it can probably be handled without it, and cb top I'd rather have krosan grip or pithing needle or something.

Sometimes I board out daze on the draw but not that often actually. It's still pretty good imo even on the draw and there are often cards I want to board out more. Stifle is bad against some decks but it's good vs. a fair amount as well. I actually like it vs. zoo since that + wasteland can really hamper them. They're 3 colors and they also need certain lands for their cats and apes.

Goddik

09-23-2011, 07:36 AM

Usually stifle and daze are a package that i take out in particular matchups where i want to be control rather than tempo. It is rare that i do it play/draw dependant though i can see it being relevant in some matchups (Junk and zoo come to mind as matchups where tempo is viable on the play but awfull on the draw)

Purgatory

09-23-2011, 07:49 PM

Here's the list I sleeved up and tested a few games with tonight:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island / Bayou

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Hymn to Tourach

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Dismember

SB:
2 Spell Pierce
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Submerge
2 Darkblast
1 Ghastly Demise
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Tormod's Crypt

It worked fine, for me. Some of the slots are definitely debateable, however;

* Spell Pierce: Is a godsend against some decks, it helped me hold back NO against RUG, but it was pointless against Vial aggro. I feel that, despite any real amount of testing, that this should probably either be more than a 2-of, or it should be cut completely, it's a bad topdeck late-game, and though the 10 permission spells are needed against some decks, Spell Pierce does not help out a lot against cheap removal (i.e. Swords to Plowshares, Dismember etc.)

* Jace 2: He was an absolute bomb in a couple of the games where I resolved him on about even boardstate, even just holding off blockers to get in for the last few points with Goyf is great against some decks. His versatility makes me want to play him, but I'm not too sure just yet.

* The removal suite: I still haven't quite decided on what to use, Demise answers T1 Lackey, Mom, Hierarch and a bunch of other problematic creatures, but does nothing against others, like Bob or opposing Tombstalkers. Losing a game to Bob sucks, because the deck only has two outs against it, bar Counterspells, obviously. Go for the Throat could fix that, and 2 GftT, 2 Dismember could be fine, but I'm scared of losing to Goblins too often. Demise is cheap, elegant and it gets the job done most of the time, so I think I'll stick by it for now. Dismember is a house, and probably my favourite removal spell since Smother got printed way back in Onslaught.

* Only 20 lands: Despite running a rather low number of lands, comparing this list to the more controlish BUG lists, and despite the fact that I have Jace, I don't think that the number of lands is really an issue, Stifle can protect my lands from Wasteland, and it's just as much of a time walk as stifling a fetch, and the 8 cantrips can work to find extra lands if needed. The manascrews are there, sure, but they are quite rare, and in the last six months of playing the deck with only 19 lands, I think I felt more maybe thrice.

Overall, I'm very happy with this list for now, and I think that the tempo variant is the way to go post-MM, if the metagame speeds up. I don't have time to diddle around with Bob, flipping Tombstalkers and FoWs when my opponents is burning me out.

wcm8

09-23-2011, 08:36 PM

Water_Wizard

09-24-2011, 12:59 AM

You don't think 1 island is good so you can fetch and brainstorm when your opponent leads with a wasteland? Sometimes I just like the option of 1 basic land in the event my opponent has an open wasteland.

I play online. With the banning of MM, High Tide is back in full-swing. I played a game and won in 3, but mostly due to my opponent's unlucky drawing in the final game. I have a question about boarding in Leyline of the Void against High Tide. I didn't do it in this game, but I think it might be a very viable option, as High Tide needs the recurrence from Time Spiral and exiling his High Tides and other spells could stop him in his tracks.

Here is my list:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Island (used to play 4 UGS, but changed to 1 Island for reasons stated above)

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Stifle
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep
4 Hymn to Tourach

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Dismember
1 Pernicious Deed

SB:
1 Darkblast
2 Ghastly Demise
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Perish
3 Thoughseize

So, out come the Edicts and Dismembers, in go 3 Thoughseizes and a Deed. I put the 2 Deeds in for Candelabra, and in the 3rd game, I ended up hitting 2 of them, plus it gave 'Goyf a nice boost.
My question is, should I drop 2 Deed and 2 Jace for Leyline or maybe even 2 Deed and 2 Tombstalker? In one of the games, I had active Jace, which was very nice and fatesealing him bought me time. With Against Time Spiral, it is nice to have your FOW recycled and eating them all up to Tombstalker hurts your chances of drawing them in your new 7 (on the flip side, it's nice to eat up fetch lands, etc.). Also, when your opponent Time Spirals, Goyf goes to 0/1, but is usually back up to at least a 2/3 because your opponent is going to cast instants and sorceries with their freshly untapped land and new hand. Thoughts on Leyline? It just kind of occurred to me while boarding for game 3 and I wasn't confident enough in my decision to make the switch, but it may be a powerful card to have. Thoughts?

Jeff

09-24-2011, 02:09 AM

I actually played against High Tide a lot with this deck before Misstep was printed, since there are 4 players at my local shop with it. I found a few things

- Leyline of the Void doesn't cut it, because you'll never get to cast it before they go off, and having it in your opener only really provides quite marginal advantage. On the other hand, Extirpate is great in this matchup, because you can extirpate the first high tide, and that's really the only spell you care about getting rid of. I also think Extirpate is better in this deck than Leyline, because you run enough draw that you can find it eventually by the time you need it, but you don't have to mulligan to it in order to win. It also buys you a sideboard slot because you only really need 3, where you need 4 leylines
- Killing Candelabra isn't worth it. They'll always get one untap out of it, which is usually enough, although obviously they'd rather get multiples, it's still pretty good value if it buys a card and you're holding cards to kill it. Plus if they expect you have removal for it, they'll just hold it until turn 4 and play it as they go off.
- Thoughtseize is amazing. You really have to kill their ability to get going, which isn't too difficult. If you're lucky you'll get to thoughtseize after they merchant scroll on T2 and take their meditate or high tide.
- If you're definitely going to face the matchup, find room in your sideboard for Dispel. This may have changed since Flusterstorm was printed, but pre-misstep Dispel was the best board card I found for them, and I suspect it's still pretty good, it just depends on how many flusterstorms they may or may not have.

So with your current list, I'd turn the 4 leylines into 3 Extirpates and a Dispel, then bring in 3 thoughtseizes, 3 extirpates, 1 dispel, and cut 2 Jace, 2 Dismember, 2 Edict, and 1 Deed. Obviously that'll change once your list evolves without misstep, but it's a place to start.

Also, re: land. With only 20 lands, you simply can't afford to run the basic island, no matter how much you might want it occasionally against a wasteland. You need to be able to run the entire deck on 2 or maybe 3 lands, and the ability to cast Hymn to Tourach on turn 2 is pretty vital. The number of times I lose to an opponent's wasteland is going to be less than the number of times I draw that stupid island and then can't cast my black spells when I need them. I say this not based off of theory, but off of extensive testing.

Water_Wizard

09-24-2011, 02:50 AM

Great Point on the extripate. I'm running 22 land. I've gone both ways (4 UGS vs. 3 UGS and 1 Island). I like your point about 3rd turn Hymn and wcm8's point about the games you face 3 wastelands is not going to equal the games you mana screw yourself. One other point about basics lands is PTE, I realize kind of a moot point due to the fact that I want to get it first turn to prevent wasteland, but can be nice and that regard (and against Price of Progress). Anyway, food for thought, but probably not worth cutting the 3rd UGS.

Thanks for your comments!

Purgatory

09-24-2011, 05:33 AM

For your list, I would try:

-2 Jace
+2 Sylvan Library

Landing Sylvan on turn 2/3 puts the game in easy mode. Jace is way too slow against most decks, and is only really good in certain midrange and control matchups. Sylvan is pretty much universally awesome. Getting to four mana when you're also using/playing against Wasteland and Daze is nigh impossible in the post-Misstep world. I predict that there will also be a lot more Goblins, Merfolk, Zoo, and other miscellaneous aggro decks running around, in which case Jace is mostly going to just sit in your hand looking dumb.

That said, Jace is still worth fitting in the SB as a 2/3-of. I just don't think he's as universally good as Library.

Also, I don't see the point in playing the Clique over the 4th Tombstalker. I can somewhat understand Clique being the 9th creature, but even that slot is iffy. So I would also go

-1 Vendilion Clique
+1 Tombstalker

Regarding your mana base: Don't play the basic island. It's not going to bail you out of trouble, and you're going to lose more games from it mana screwing you than you are because your opponent had triple wasteland. Either use a Bayou or the 9th fetchland.

Spell Pierce isn't a bad idea, but I think it's better as a sideboard card. I would play something that's relevant in nearly every matchup, at least in the main:

-2 Spell Pierce
+2 Maelstrom Pulse (or 1 Pulse, 1 Liliana of the Veil)

Pulse is a card that bails you out of random situations (eg. your opponent is playing some sort of obnoxious control deck and lands Ensnaring Bridge, or Belcher is able to get 20 tokens on their second turn, etc..) At worst, it's a sorcery speed creature removal -- often your first two turns are going to be spent playing other cards anyways, not dealing with a resolved creature. You can sometimes randomly 2-for-1 with it as well.

Good points, some food for thought indeed.

On Sylvan Library: I have tried it a while ago, before MM was printed, and I didn't like it. I tried it with MM in the deck and found that in between MM, FoW, fetches, Dismember etc., I was usually on too low life to make something worthwile out of the Library, other than just having it filter my draws. It might be worth testing it again, but I couldn't get around the initial card disadvantage, though it might be good against control decks.

On Vendilion Clique: I used to run 4 Goyfs, 4 Stalkers, 1 Clique, and cut one of the Stalkers now to fit some other stuff in (specifically the 20th land), I kept the Clique over the fourth Stalker, simply because drawing multiple Stalkers is often very awkward. Clique is also an evasive threat and it pitches to FoW, and so on.

On basic Island: Yes, I know, and I put Bayou slashed in there as well. The reason that I play an Island is simply that I don't own either a second Bayou or a Verdant Catacombs yet, but I plan on adding another Bayou as soon as I can hunt one down.

On Maelstrom Pulse: I haven't really tested it much, when I did I found the Sorcery speed and the mana cost of it awkward. It could be worth testing it, it's a much better topdeck late-game than Spell Pierce (except against opposing Tarmogoyfs :)).

Jeff

09-24-2011, 09:22 AM

When Jace is popular and Batterskull is not, Maelstrom Pulse is great in this deck. I was at the point where I was running Putrefy in it's slot to kill Batterskulls and just chalking up the Jace matchup, but now I think with the probably decline of U/W Stoneforge, I'll go back to the Pulses so that I have noncreature ways to kill Jace. I lost two matches at a tournament last week because I couldn't beat a resolved Jace until he couldn't bounce my stalker anymore, which sucked, because bounced stalkers are really, really, painful.

J

wcm8

09-25-2011, 03:00 PM

After some testing, the new Liliana definitely deserves a slot in the deck, at least as a singleton. Her versatility makes her very appealing over other removal options, because she's pretty damn good in every sort of matchup.

I actually found her +1 to be incredibly helpful against combo and control, because you can just toss situational cards that are dead in the late game while the opponent is gorced to drop their StPs or High Tides theyve been sandbagging. And if they decide to drop a creature, well... I haven't had an opportunity to use her ultimate, because like Jace, if she gets to that point youve probably already won the game.

catmint

09-25-2011, 06:00 PM

I had similar experiences with her. So far I gave her 2 slots, but did not cut instant speed removal for it. Would have to test it, however I think she is only really good if she lives and if there are 2 creatures on our opponents side (and we can't block) she is not good at all. The 4 removal spots help to keep the board empty. Removal in T1 and 2 is necessary versus a lot of decks and with our gameplan of dazing and wasting liliana is a vast majority of the time not a turn 3 play...

catmint

09-26-2011, 05:36 AM

Has anyone considered/tested Delver of Secrets? They talk a lot about for canadian treshhold.

Much worse in defense than goyf and pretty fragile, but i feel much better in offense. In case no thoughtseize/stifle is there, he is a nice first turn play, that attacks with 50% chance for 3 in the air on turn 2. If you have stifle/thoughtseize, he can played turn 2, where goyf still has to sit in our hand.

catmint

09-26-2011, 05:36 AM

Mr. Safety

09-26-2011, 07:44 AM

Purgatory

09-26-2011, 09:40 AM

One of the few flippers that doesn't suck, IMHO. Can't be transformed back, and Brainstorm/Ponder set him up like a champ.

I don't play Team America, so I'm curious what you would take out in favor of Delver of Secrets? Nimble Mongoose?

CA players seem to be cutting Goose for Delver, yes, but some argue that Goose is better than Goyf.

I don't see the point of him in TA, however. He is on paper worse than both Goyf and Tombstalker, and if aggro decks in the form of Zoo and Goblins come back in full force, a 3/2 flying dude is going to spend all of its time getting burned by Bolts and Lavamancers.

I haven't tested him, however, the only real upside to him that I can see is that he pitches to FoW and he also makes it possible to cut Goyf and green completely, thereby enhancing the manabase of the deck.

metamet

09-28-2011, 01:18 PM

Parax

09-29-2011, 02:49 AM

Even when i went Ubg control vs Team america, i didn't play Bob. The way i see it, is blind flipping a Jace or a Force of Will is no good. The Ubg list that i'm talking about is:

8Black
3 x Dismember
1 x Go for the Throat
4 x Hymn to Tourach
21 Blue
4 x Ancestral Vision
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Force of Will
4 x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 x Spell Pierce
2 x Vendilion Clique
7 Gold
3 x Maelstrom Pulse
4 x Pernicious Deed
24 Land
2 x Bayou
1 x Creeping Tar Pit
2 x Polluted delta
3 x Mishra's Factory
3 x Misty Rainforest
2 x Tropical Island
4 x Underground Sea
3 x Verdant Catacombs
4 x Wasteland

Ancestral Vision does just as good if not better job than Bob will. Sure this was during the lovely Mental Misstep time, and i have since gone back to a more traditional tempo version as i don't think the meta at the moment is slow enough for vision.

dsck

09-29-2011, 04:19 AM

So what's the consensus on Team America vs. BUG Tempo with Bob?

Bob still seems good. Jace will probably still be good... which makes Stalker worse.

Your opponents should have hard time getting to 4 mana and resolving jace when you have dazes, wastes and stifles..

catmint

09-29-2011, 05:10 AM

So what's the consensus on Team America vs. BUG Tempo with Bob?

Bob still seems good. Jace will probably still be good... which makes Stalker worse.

I wrote an article on this prior to MM's release into being legal and playable: The Future of America, Team (http://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/05/the-future-of-america-team/).

I've never much liked Bob in this shell... but I don't quite know how to feel right now. All I want to do is cast Stifle.

Liked your article very much back then!
I agree - Stifle is much stronger now and therefore I want to go full blown for the tempo plan. Daze & Wasteland do really not work well with jace. And running 20 non-basic lands can not reliably support jace in my opinion. So as someone said many pages before, altough jace is obviously a very powerful card it is like fitting a square into a circle. I play 2 liliana now instead of 2 jace. She is unfortunately not able to provide the same long game CA/wincon as jace, but she comes down earlier, also has a lasting effect which can make a difference and having additional removal versus aggro, but also a card that does something versus combo and control fits nicely in TA strategy.

Purgatory

09-29-2011, 07:15 AM

So what's the consensus on Team America vs. BUG Tempo with Bob?

Bob still seems good. Jace will probably still be good... which makes Stalker worse.

I wrote an article on this prior to MM's release into being legal and playable: The Future of America, Team (http://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/05/the-future-of-america-team/).

I've never much liked Bob in this shell... but I don't quite know how to feel right now. All I want to do is cast Stifle.

I feel that, while Bob is an impressive creature and obviously extremely good if you stick him and protect him long enough to get going, in the fast-paced metagame filled with Aggro decks that I, and others with me, predict for the near future, I'd much rather be casting 5/5 fliers that decks like Zoo will often have difficulties dealing with, than 2/1's that can, and will, be Bolted, Lavamancer'd etc.

Also, props on the article, I think that all of it, aside from the MM parts, can and probably will be relevant to the deck in the near future, and especially people less familiar with the deck will have a good read. Well done, I liked it a lot!

Goddik

09-29-2011, 08:03 AM

Anyone have any experience with snapcaster yet? I fooled around a bit with liliana which seemed decent but unspectacular

wcm8

09-29-2011, 12:06 PM

Goddik, Drew Levin posted an article on SCG this week that had a list with 3 Snapcaster Mages in the main (along with a variety of instant speed removal, including 1 Dismember and 1 Ghastly Demise in the 1cmc slots). He said it would be the key to help beating the Merfolk matchup.

To be honest, I'm not so sure, at least in TA. In Magical Fantasy Land, sure, they'll attack with 3 fishes and you'll Ghastly Demise one, Flash it back with a Snapcaster to kill the other, and block/trade with the last attacker. Too often in my testing though Snapcaster sat around looking dumb in my hand. It also didn't help that it seems like a lot of 'Folk players are adding Kiras to the main.

The card is very good, but I think what would really push it over the top is if we got a solid 1cmc black removal spell that isn't as situational as the options currently available. I also wonder if it'd be good to run some number of Spell Pierces in the main alongside Snapcaster. At this point, you may want to look at running a different deck to better utilize the card -- I tested a straight U/R tempo thresh build with 4 Delver of Secrets, 3 Grim Lavamancer, 4 Snapcaster, 2 Clique, 4 Lightning Bolt and the rest of the typical cards and it was VERY strong. Of course it wrecked Merfolk even further with the REB/Pyrob lasts and Firespouts in the board.

Pernicious Deed still seems key to handling this matchup. (Of course, you can be like me and face the luckiest Merfolk player in the world who in game 2 drops a T1 Relic, T2 Pithing Needle naming Deed... true story.)

edit: Before anyone else points it out:

I fooled around a bit with liliana
:D

Parax

09-29-2011, 04:10 PM

Do you really blame him?

Purgatory

09-29-2011, 04:15 PM

I fooled around a bit with liliana

It's funny, because Jace and Liliana have an affair in Agents of Artifice.

So what, now we're cutting him from our decks and we're also getting it down with his ex? That seems harsh, frankly :)

naarou

09-30-2011, 02:24 PM

2x jace got the boot for 2x liliana in my list. Also dropped green. Best direction this deck's gone in years.

This post is painfully thin. You can do better (especially in the DTB forum). Verbal warning. - Bardo

EDIT: I agree with Bardo, this post was rather lacking in the content department. Here's my list:

// Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tombstalker
1 Vendilion Clique

// Cantrips
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain

// Disruption
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Hymn to Tourach

// Removal
4 Dismember
2 Liliana

// Lands
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs (tarns might be better)
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
1 Swamp
1 Island

// Sideboard
4 Spell Pierce
3 Ghastly Demise
3 Submerge
3 Extirpate
2 Tormod's Crypt

bradstone

09-30-2011, 04:41 PM

Naarou could you post your list? I was thinking about bringing it to UB with sinkholes for a bit, but pernicious deed is just so damn good in fixing match ups.

What do people think about Vendilion Clique in the new meta? Is it still worth running in TA? I've heard a lot of people say Clique was geared to the MM meta and others claim its their favorite creature in the game.

naarou

09-30-2011, 08:46 PM

I edited in my list.

Clique is still good as a 1-2 of. It still has all the same things going for it: it's blue, evasive, high power, and disrupts. I would always include at least one for threat variety.

Delver is also pretty ridiculously good in my testing. I encourage everyone here to at least give him a shot in goyf's slot. The thing about delver that nobody realizes is even when you don't have a cantrip to guarantee a flip, he still helps filter through your deck with the aid of fetches. Top card a piece of removal in game one against storm? Shuffle it away and draw a hopefully better card. The fact that it has evasion, is 1cmc, is BLUE (pitches to force... always relevant) and has the same power as a clique makes this guy a huge asset. You don't even have to drop green if you still want to play Pernicious Deed to make use of this little guy.

I think the removal suite of 4 dismember 2 liliana is pretty well rounded too. There really isn't much besides a late game KOTR that gets around dismember. Liliana also locks up games something fierce. I think she fits beautifully in this deck.

BantFTW

10-01-2011, 03:09 AM

I'm an aggro player and I've got this to say about not playing with green:
if you woudn't play green, I think you never can win against aggro (without goyfs)
You can't hold everything with counter and removal...
Also Nimble Mongoose is quite a bomb against aggro, just saying (I know this ain't tempothresh but yeah)

naarou

10-01-2011, 04:16 AM

I won't argue against the fact that tarmogoyf is better against aggro than delver. However, I think the boarded removal suite of 4 dismember, 3 ghastly demise, 3 submerge, and 2 liliana along with all the relevant counterspells is more than enough to handle zoo goblins and merfolk.

jandax

10-01-2011, 04:48 AM

As someone with a lil experience on both sides of the table in that matchup, your boarded removal suite would be more than enough to handle the beatdown matchup. And did you mean liliana of the veil?

BantFTW

10-01-2011, 05:37 AM

the new liliana really rocks, I'm playing it in loam atm and it's really good atm :)
But I'm testing with aggro decks against control, and, well I almost never loose with zoo.
gobblins and merfolk I don't know but zoo must be a hard matchup right :O?

Start your sentences with capitals please. Thanks. -zilla

Neffy

10-01-2011, 11:38 AM

Has anyone been testing 1 liliana veil and 1 jace in the MB?

Im getting kinda tired of jace being difficult too cast with all those wastelands around, and since i already run dual bayous for the stalker, hymn and library package, liliana seems as a good choice to me?

naarou

10-01-2011, 03:21 PM

As someone with a lil experience on both sides of the table in that matchup, your boarded removal suite would be more than enough to handle the beatdown matchup. And did you mean liliana of the veil?
Yeah I meant of the veil. Edited, thanks.

Has anyone been testing 1 liliana veil and 1 jace in the MB?

Im getting kinda tired of jace being difficult too cast with all those wastelands around, and since i already run dual bayous for the stalker, hymn and library package, liliana seems as a good choice to me?
Yeah, I dropped Jace and I don't miss him for a second. Liliana has similar flexibility for a lesser cost. In a deck that plays daze and wasteland, hitting 4 mana is no easy task. I'd rather play pulses in the board to deal with Jace-heavy metas than my own jaces at this point.

gamegeek2

10-02-2011, 01:41 AM

Here's the list with Liliana I have come up with:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
1 Vendilion Clique (Could be a fourth Tombstalker)

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Dismember
1 Putrefy (Could definitely be Pulse)
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Hymn to Tourach

I'm not sure on the Putrefy and Clique but I'm fairly positive that the rest of the list is appropriate, except maybe the Swamp.

Liliana seems at her best in multiples: she dies fairly easily because of her low loyalty and -2 to defend herself, so replacements are welcome. If you ever have multiples in your hand, her +1 ability can ditch them and make the opponent ditch something in return.

I don't know about the sideboard, though I think Jace TMS belongs there still to fight against slower decks, if there are any of those in the newer format.

mcfarland

10-02-2011, 04:31 AM

Played in a 40 man tonight, and T8'd with a 5th place finish. I lost to UW Standstill (who eventually took 1st place - 4x foil goyfs), and was knocked out of top 8 by NOGoyf. Threw the list together really quickly, but was pretty happy with the pile.

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [A] Bayou
3 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [U] Tropical Island
4 [U] Underground Sea

// Creatures
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
3 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek
2 [NPH] Dismember
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)
3 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 [DIS] Spell Snare
SB: 4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [NPH] Dismember
SB: 1 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 3 [TO] Llawan, Cephalid Empress
SB: 1 [ON] Smother

Liliana was pretty amazing. If I were to play it again, I'd add another and test Delver in there somewhere.

PanderAlexander

10-02-2011, 06:54 AM

Nice work Mcfarland.

Also apparently a Team America list running Snapcaster Mage got 1st place out of 390 players in Europe for a post-ban tourney, hopefully we'll get a decklist soon.

catmint

10-03-2011, 03:39 AM

congratulations mcfarland.
Interesting approach for a BUG control deck to rely on the most powerful plainswalkers available.

My comments:
I would be worried not to find the right peace in the early-mid game. Since you dont have additional filter with Ponder nor Ancestral Visions for draw it feels like you have to rely on your draws more than necessary.

Cutting stifle (and the TA tempo plan), I would not run 4 daze... Daze might be questionable anyway, since you want to make it very fast to 3 and 4 lands for your walkers.?!

With only 2 early/instant speed removal I worry to get overrun, but creatures before planeswalkers can take over the game. Deed might also be a bit too slow...?

naarou

10-04-2011, 02:19 AM

That list looks a lot more like a bugstill/bug control deck than a Team America list. Team America is three things: Tempo, Disruption, Beats. Your deck has a lot of control elements (6 walkers, deed) to it, and I'm not sure I'd label it as a TA deck. It is certainly close though.

Regardless of my nagging, congrats on the result ^_^!

mcfarland

10-04-2011, 02:48 AM

Thanks guys.

@catmint and naarou: I completely agree with you guys. I was actually planning on sleeving up an entirely different deck that day, but a few key cards fell through. I ended up taking an existing TA deck and spending a few minutes moving things around, making room to test Liliana. All in all, it was untuned and I was happily surprised to walk away with a prize.

Since the base was a pretty traditional TA list, I just thought I'd post it in the thread. :)

metamet

10-04-2011, 11:40 AM

I essentially ran the AJ/Gerry list at SCG this past weekend, opting out of Tombstalker and Stifles.

Snapcaster with Unearth is absurdly fun. Having 4 Ghastly Demise in the side makes the Merfolk, Zoo, Goblins matchup super good.

I actually forgot my Legacy deck at home... so I scrambled to borrow cards from a handful of people and ended up getting the 75 together, save 4 Tarmogoyfs...

I only had 3. I ran Scavenging Ooze instead.

Which was absurdly good.

Seriously. I kept laughing at how good that card is. I was glad it wasn't Goyf in a couple of matchups, as the lifegain and growing 8/8 was relevant.

Anywho. That's all there. I ended up playing against Mike Hawthorne (a good friend, member of my collective, car sharer, hotel room sharer, and writer that I edit) round 2, which was a bummer. He wrote a report on the tourny here: SCG Indy Tournament Report: The Newest Horizons (http://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/10/scg-indy-tournament-report-the-newest-horizons/). He played New Horizons and ended up taking 34th.

I then proceeded to 2-2 drop, losing to Elves (of all things!). I kept a Snapcaster, Ghastly Demise, Dismember hand game three and only ever saw those removal spells. After the match I pieced through my deck and found the other tenish removal spells in the bottom quarter of the deck. Wasn't drawing them any time soon... :)

But Snapcaster and Tombstalker aren't friends. Don't play them together.

Now we face the same circumstance... is Snapcaster (sans Stifle) Team America any more? I... don't think so.

catmint

10-04-2011, 12:22 PM

I don't like AJ's/Gerrys build.
I want to run stifle and yes snapcaster is very strong. But I am testing delver instead of Tombastalker. Its much faster and can be played in T2 while having mana open for thoughtseize/stifle/ponder/spell snare. In that way also snapcaster can be played.

metamet

10-04-2011, 01:01 PM

gustha

10-04-2011, 02:43 PM

Nice work Mcfarland.

Also apparently a Team America list running Snapcaster Mage got 1st place out of 390 players in Europe for a post-ban tourney, hopefully we'll get a decklist soon.

I think you're referring to Ovino 6, in Milan. Here's the report (http://www.tipo1.it/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26518) (in Italian). And here's the list:

4 force of will
4 brainstorm
2 ponder
2 dismember
1 go for the throat
1 ghastly demise
1 esplosivi ingegnerizzati
4 tarmogoyf
3 tomb stalker
2 snapcaster mage
4 hymn to tourach
3 daze
3 delver of secret
3 thoughtseize
2 jace the mind sculptor

4 sea
2 trop
2 bayou
4 wasteland
9 fetch

SB:

2 perish
2 pernicious deed
3 extirpate
1 nihil spellbomb
1 life from the loam
1 ghastly demise
1 go for the throat
1 llawan cephalid empress
1 thoughtseize
1 spell pierce
1 krosan

catmint

10-04-2011, 05:52 PM

Delver is pretty bad in a BUG build... But test away and let us know if you think it's worth it. I'm not impressed by the prospect of having a 3/2 on turn 3 or 4 when you could have a 5/5 with better evasion, as you're not wanting to tap out on turn 1 if you're playing Stifle... and you're wanting to play Hymn or Goyf of turn 2 if you're not holding a Stifle. The curve feels off with Delver, and it can't block worth anything, which is one of the strengths of Stalker.

If you're hellbent on playing Delver, I'd recommend running it in a UR tempo deck with lightning bolts.

Why don't you like AJ's build? I played it at SCG and I thought it was pretty strong. Missed Stifle, but it's a different deck.

I did not play the build - maybe it is very strong. I did not like that it is all about snapcaster mage and that the Stifle/Daze/Tombstalker plan of TA is neglected because of that. Also liliana did not make the cut for them...

My idea about delver came from the fact that I often want to keep mana open for stifle and therefore don't want to play Hymn or Goyf on Turn 2 and 3. Delver beeing a 1 drop can be played turn 2 while having mana for thoughtseize, stifle or spell snare/pierce. Delver is also better friends with snapcaster and snapcaster is good friends with all the 1 drops I like to play in a Delver deck.

I tested Delver in TA instead of stalker including snapcaster and also in Esper America with Stalkers and V-cliques with a SFM package in the sideboard.

In some situation where Delver transformed imemdiately, it just felt like playing a flying nacatl and it won me a couple of games. It felt like a real tempo boost, because it can be played so easily very early. I played 6 games (not matches) versus canadian thresh and lost 5:1. It was also due to draws and bad transforming luck. It was also close so I think the matchup is not as bad as it seems. However, I think canidian thresh is a better home for delver. Beeing vulnerable to red sucks, without a cantrip which you often don't want to play just because of transforming, he sticks to a 1/1 with a 50% chance and there were some situations where the bigger body was needed. Not going to dismiss it at this point though...

ScatmanX

10-05-2011, 01:08 PM

What do you guys think about Marius van Zundert's list?

List:
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Spell Snare
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Tombstalker
4 Brainstorm
3 Ancestral Vision
3 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Dismember
1 Go for the Throat
1 Darkblast
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Perish
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Dismember
1 Thoughtseize
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Extirpate
link to explanations. (http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/feature-article-a-legacy-journey/)

I really liked it. Having those basics bother me a lot though.
Also, only 2 answers to Lackey on the draw (not counting FoWs), seem to few.
The absence of Stifle/Daze may make this deck look more like Landstill, but guess it still belongs here.

Waikiki

10-05-2011, 01:43 PM

Marius is my teammate and we allready concluded after the tournament the forest should become a bayou. BB is too important to open up with a startinghand forest. Also he doesnt see the deck as team america but just a BUG aggro / control list. It plays less tempo cards to try and get a better late game with planeswalkers.

Piceli89

10-05-2011, 02:05 PM

Aren't 18 blue cards a lil' too few for Force?

Waikiki

10-05-2011, 04:56 PM

I agree, myself am on the snapcaster mage is awesome must play those. But Marius likes to play that version of BUG which works fine for him. the blue count is much lower.

Jeff

10-05-2011, 11:52 PM

Ran this to a 4-0 result at a local legacy tournament.

Creatures/Walkers (12)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
1 Liliana of the Veil

Spells (28)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Dismember
2 Go for the Throat
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize

Land (20)
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Wasteland
8 Fetches

Sideboard (15)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Consuming Vapors
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Ghastly Demise
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Dispel
1 Spell Pierce

I played against Esper Team America, some sort of Past in Flames storm deck, Combo Elves, and Canadian Threshold (with Delvers)

Delver was interesting. I won a game against an esper america build because I dropped two Delvers turns one and two, he wasted my lands, I flipped them, and just bashed for 6 in the air 3 times. He was great against the storm deck as he provided me a clock while I disrupted them.

Liliana was also pretty awesome. She was a little awkward against elves, but was good against Storm and Team America, and I never drew her against Threshold.

Engineered Explosives was awkward, but I think it may be necessary, however it may just be a board card. I'll have to give that some more consideration.

AggroSteve

10-06-2011, 04:05 AM

@ jeff: your build is probably the one that could my attention the most as i really liked the tempobuild, but had sometimes problems sticking or finding a threat, in your version, this is appearentely not that much of a problem, with 11 creatures instead of 8

and i have read a lot of positive feedback on delvers, i might try them as well

wcm8

10-06-2011, 10:47 AM

The testing results that I am finding is that Delver is great in this deck *in addition to* Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker. Any "tempo" gained by countering spells/killing creatures is completely irrelevant if you can't back it up with a threat. I have lost games with the classic list when I wittled the opponent down to single-digit life and they finally top-decked a Swords to Plowshares.

Upping the threat count to 11-12 (With a mixture of Goyfs, Tombstalkers, Delvers, and possibly a few Snapcasters and/or Cliques) makes this deck pretty well-positioned against everything that doesn't revolve around Blood Moon.

Thoughtseize is also a great maindeck card to be playing right now.

I am back and forth on Stifle. I think the card is the nuts in certain matchups, but other ones don't call for it and it just becomes FoW fodder. Especially with playing Delver, Thoughtseize, or Ponder on Turn 1, and tapping out on T2 for a Goyf or Hymn, I am finding myself less willing to want to hold up Stifle mana. The card is also rather mediocre in the mid-to-late game.

There are three approaches I would take with this style of deck with the new cards available to us:
1. Going for pure speed/efficiency, essentially a BUG Tempo Thresh Deck. This version would run Stifle, possibly Spell Snare, and *maybe* Dark Confidant.
2. Middle-of-the-road TA, with mostly the classic list but with the addition of Delvers and *perhaps* cutting Stifle entirely.
3. More control-oriented BUG, with 2-3 Jace TMS maindeck, a few more lands, Thoughtseize, but still using the 11-12 creature suite. The advantage of this deck over pure control like Deedstill is that you are still playing fast threats and not loading up on conditional removal spells -- giving you a better matchup against a wider swath of decks.

Each approach has its own merits, and I don't think any one particular direction is "best", but instead tries to address certain metagame expectations.

Asthereal

10-06-2011, 11:26 AM

I understand that 18 blue cards is the minimum including FoW.
Ancestral Visions on turn one might mess up the plan and make a topdecked FoW bad, though.

Marius' list is not really Team America btw, it plays a bit more controllish.
In NL we had a discussion about it which actually ended in flaming, but we can probably agree on it being an in between thing of Team America and BUGstill.

naarou

10-06-2011, 03:03 PM

wcm8

10-06-2011, 03:06 PM

wcm8 I'm confused why you would consider Dark Confidant to be part of the "blazingly fast tempo oriented" strategy and Delver to be "middle of the road". That seems quite backwards to me.

Tempo uses beats to finish the game off. Dark Confidant is not beats, it's card advantage.

I am ambivalent about the use of Confidant and personally don't like the card.

Delver could see use in all three potential build directions.

Edit: after seeing my friends TA build with 4 snapcasters own all night, flashing back stifle, hymn, thoughtseize, and assorted removal, I retract my statements about Delver being essential... Snapcaster just might be better with the appropriate targets.

catmint

10-07-2011, 04:57 AM

Very nice concept Jeff.

My questions are:
- How did it feel to support 4 Mana spells with 20 lands Postboard?
- Why did you not include deed?

Esper3k

10-07-2011, 08:47 AM

I think maybe he didn't play Deed because Delvers make it much worse?

Jeff

10-07-2011, 08:52 AM

I actually didn't have any trouble fielding the 4th mana postboard for Jace, but the 5th was a little rough when I was trying to play Jace around Daze. With 8 cantrips, finding 4 mana really isn't that hard, although you do have to be substantially less aggressive with wastelands if you've brought Jace in. That isn't really that big of a deal though, since you aren't on the Stifle plan you're probably not going to manascrew them much.

Like Esper suggests, EE is simply better than deed when you don't want to straight kill your own guys too. Deed is better when Goyf is the only thing in your deck that it can kill, but with Delver I've now doubled the number of threats that could die to it. An important part of that equation is that I'm currently leaving Delver in even against aggro (zoo), because I want to cut all 4 Forces and all 4 Dazes, and I don't have 12 cards to bring in so I have to keep the Delvers, even in matchups where Deed is great.

Re: Delver vs. Snapcaster: I think Delver is better than Snapcaster in Team America, which I define as a 20 land tempo oriented strategy that preys on combo and always gets the most of it's mana, and Snapcaster is better in BUG Control, which is a 22-24 land control deck that runs a wide range of answers to the field, and uses Snapcaster to double up on whatever the best answer is for that matchup, then lands Jace. I may try BUG Control next week, but my Snapcasters hadn't come in the mail, and my Lilianas had, so the decision this week was easy.

I'm not sure which of those two decks is better, although I'm pretty sure the Delver build is better against High Tide, and since there are 4 sets of Candelabras at my LGS . . . . I have to be prepared to face it.