[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

[Goddik]

btw, if U/R delver is getting you down you might consider Sorins Thirst as a removal spell in the board that is also usefull in other matchups

[Tombstalker]

The main problem is that all the blue cards suck compared to their black counterparts and the deck is extremely tight. Discard is unbelievably better than pierce and snare.
This is true and if blue count isnt a problem then no worries. Ive adopted the tapout version of TA whole heartedly now and man is it sick. Im currently using 3/3 split of hymn and IoK for the win (could be TS). This almost guarantees an aggressive t1 start of either delver/iok or at least ponder to set up t2 in addition to free counters/snuff out. The amount of pressure the deck can exert is pretty insane. Props to whoever initiated this mentality for TA.

[Goddik]

I want a like function on this forum....

[Tombstalker]

Here's my latest list for anyone interested. It plays as aggressive as jund but with free counter magic and free removal. Its really rekindled my hopes for TA as a DTB.
Yes I'm running 19 lands, although strictly on a trial basis at this point. Reason is because wastelands mana production its actually relevant for many spells unlike in tempo thresh. In addition the more aggressive nature of TA and absence of stifle relegates wasteland to a more utility roll (meaning i don't feel its as necessary to commit to land denial as often). Anyway here it is..



Creatures 11
4 delver of secrets
4 tarmogoyf
3 tombstalker

Plainswalkers 2
2 liliana of the veil

Enchantments 1
1 sylvan library

Counters/Disruption 14
4 force of will
4 daze
3 inquisition of kozilek
3 hymn to tourach

Cantrips 8
4 brainstorm
4 ponder

Removal 5
3 snuff out
2 maelstrom pulse

Lands 19
4 misty rainforest
4 verdant
4 underground sea
4 wasteland
2 bayou
1 tropical island

[Goddik]

I think you are being greedy on the land side, unlike canadian this deck actively wants 3 lands in play. I would shave a force

[atropos]

@Tombstalker: Looks like a really tight list, man. How has your testing gone and what are you thinking for sideboard? Can't wait to sleeve this bitch up again.

[Tombstalker]

I think you are being greedy on the land side, unlike canadian this deck actively wants 3 lands in play. I would shave a force
I agree, to an extent because wasteland functions as a mana producer in this deck whereas in tempo thresh it really cant. As I said though this is simply a trial run with only 40ish games so far.


@Tombstalker: Looks like a really tight list, man. How has your testing gone and what are you thinking for sideboard? Can't wait to sleeve this bitch up again.
Thanks man! Testing has been insane. This deck really is the epitome of aggressive pressure. Heres my current SB, subject to change. Duress takes is there because I love the power of snuff out so I dont want the extra damage from thoughtseize plus it replaces hymn quite well against reanimator and such:

2 dread of night
4 spell pierce
3 surgical extraction
1 nihil spellbomb
2 perish
3 duress

[atropos]

I agree, to an extent because wasteland functions as a mana producer in this deck whereas in tempo thresh it really cant. As I said though this is simply a trial run with only 40ish games so far.


Thanks man! Testing has been insane. This deck really is the epitome of aggressive pressure. Heres my current SB, subject to change. Duress takes is there because I love the power of snuff out so I dont want the extra damage from thoughtseize plus it replaces hymn quite well against reanimator and such:

2 dread of night
4 spell pierce
3 surgical extraction
1 nihil spellbomb
2 perish
3 duress

That sideboard looks really good as well. Have you thought about having a single Life from the Loam? That might address the low land count and could even feed Tombstalker.

[Tombstalker]

I havent actually but I like the idea and will consider it. Right now im just trying to see what is essential and if I have room to fit some form of anti-burn, not sure what yet besides more countermagic. Any suggestions?

[mordraid]

I havent actually but I like the idea and will consider it. Right now im just trying to see what is essential and if I have room to fit some form of anti-burn, not sure what yet besides more countermagic. Any suggestions?

Chill could slow them down enough for the Team America player to take control of the game.

[Jay_Gatz]

I don't think you need any dedicated burn hate, your spell pierces and cheap discard should buy you enough time on their own.

[Tombstalker]

Chill could slow them down enough for the Team America player to take control of the game.
That is a great idea actually. I dont own any but red is pretty relevant right now.


I don't think you need any dedicated burn hate, your spell pierces and cheap discard should buy you enough time on their own.
That is the idea and you may be right but a whole deck of nothing but damage to the face is hard to stop by just trading 1 for 1. Not sure if I need the hate yet or where to fit it but I like the idea of chill quite a bit, in theory.

[atropos]

@ Burn hate conversation: Yeah, I think Chill is probably your best bet. How's your pre-board burn matchup, Tombstalker?

[Tombstalker]

@ Burn hate conversation: Yeah, I think Chill is probably your best bet. How's your pre-board burn matchup, Tombstalker?
Honestly I dont really know since I dont know anyone who plays a competitive burn deck atm, just random burn jank I guess you'd call it. Seems ok.

[from Cairo]

That sideboard looks really good as well. Have you thought about having a single Life from the Loam? That might address the low land count and could even feed Tombstalker.

Card is totally filthy with Brainstorm and Liliana as well, seems like a good choice for opposing Wasteland decks or grindy control matches in general.

[atropos]

Card is totally filthy with Brainstorm and Liliana as well, seems like a good choice for opposing Wasteland decks or grindy control matches in general.

Oh yeah, the interaction with Liliana of the Veil makes it even nastier, totally forgot about that. Definitely seems like a good sideboard option.

@Tombstalker this TA you've built does have many ways to deal with Price of Progress but it's still not a card you want to see resolve.

[Goddik]

Your sideboard seems soft to Maverick, it is conventional wisdom (i.e. not necessarily right but true in older times) that you need at least 6 slots to handle maverick and similar aggro strategies

[Tombstalker]

Your sideboard seems soft to Maverick, it is conventional wisdom (i.e. not necessarily right but true in older times) that you need at least 6 slots to handle maverick and similar aggro strategies
That could be the case, postboard, since Ive been playing preboard for the most part to get a better feel for the deck. Maverick is one of the decks I am guaranteed to see around here though and this version does very well against it, far better than canadian id say. With canadian I usually board 5-7 cards all removal just to break even.
However in TA postboard 2 dread of night and 2 perish gives essentially 4 wrath effects plus 7 maindeck hard removal, feels sufficient. The biggest problem ive encountered isnt KotR, its thalia tbh. ramp into t2 thalia + waste will often be game if Im not holding an answer i.e. snuff out, but this is true for most decks. A couple massacre wouldnt hurt, just need to space for these ideas.

An interesting idea ive been toying with is to board stalkers into mongeese vs stoneblade. That matchup isnt all that problematic either but postboard they run a metric ton of removal and it gets alot worse. Probably not worth the SB space though, what do you guys think?

[nitewolf9]

An interesting idea ive been toying with is to board stalkers into mongeese vs stoneblade. That matchup isnt all that problematic either but postboard they run a metric ton of removal and it gets alot worse. Probably not worth the SB space though, what do you guys think?

Probably not worth the space. If you want to try and punish the ass tons of removal plan just bring in Jace. You have more disruption to stop theirs more effectively and resolve yours through countermagic. He also helps against anyone trying to play a board control deck, which usually can remove mongoose quite easily.

Jace, the Mind Sculptor: if the game is going to go long, you really can't go wrong. *Thumbs up*

[Tombstalker]

Played a bunch more games against maverick. TA definitely had the power to hang but I think nihil spellbomb will become massacre, possibly 2 if I drop a duress. The deck is still problematic and I feel card advantage answers like massacre go a long way to solve the problem. This gives me 5 free removal post board and a total of 7 t1 answers to moms Thalias mindcensors and so on. Knights are still a pain and so is teeg but I think this will be more than sufficient. Thoughts?

[Tombstalker]

Sorry for the double post but I just gotta say maindeck darkblast is the shit. Literally takes over games. Darkblast is house right now.

Edit- ok goddik 19 lands IS feeling greedy, got mana screwed all day yesterday. I think alcohol may have contributed to this idk. Im considering your suggestion to drop a FoW to the board since this deck has a low blue count it cant always utilize force. I stand by darkblast though. Im even thinking of a removal suite of 3 snuff/2 liliana/2 darkblast and moving both pulses to the board. Darkblast can deal with souls and most of stoneblade by itself and machineguns maverick while feeding stalker. Lastly a shout out to goyf! Between the added sorceries, liliana and library plus targeted discard our farm grows the biggest goyfs around.

[Goddik]

btw, i agree with Nightwolf. I would try to make room for a pair of Jaces if I was playing the traditional list. I do feel like the midrange list does most of the same stuff better though.

[catmint]

Darkblast can deal with souls and most of stoneblade by itself and machineguns maverick while feeding stalker.

you are aware that when dredgin up darkblast 3 times to deal with souls you are loosing 3 cards... So while you "deal with" souls the stoneblade palyers trades 4 for 1 and starts killing you with the other stuff he draws.

[Tombstalker]

Ok to clarify what I meant is that it reoccurs which does allow it to deal with souls, just not as efficiently as pulse, which I also have along with dread of night.

[Tombstalker]

Ok I got this bitch dialed in.

20 Lands

4 delver of secrets
4 tarmogoyf
3 tombstalker

4 force of will
3 daze
3 hymn
3 IoK

2 maelstrom pulse
2 snuff out
1 darkblast

4 brainstorm
3 ponder
2 liliana of the veil
1 sylvan library
1 LftL

Board 15
2 dread of night
3 spell pierce
4 surgical extraction
1 darkblast
2 perish
3 duress

This deck needs to be played again, its just so good. The disruption package trumps weaker reactive countermagic, at least the nonfree variety. Maindeck dredgers have so much synergy its nuts and props for suggesting loam, its insane and so is maindeck darkblast. The more aggressive game plan and dredgers has me even considering the 4th tombstalker because its just so easy to cast them lately. Feels good to be back on these colors man. The only regret is not being able to squeeze the 4th ponder, not that ive been missing it so far and the other 'engine' cards make up for it. If at all possible I always try to max the cantrips but the list is so tight I dont think I can fit it except as the 61st card. Any ideas here?

[atropos]

@Tombstalker: Dude that list looks CockDiesel as fuck, I can't wait for my Lilianas to come in so I can shit all over people with Team America again. Glad you enjoyed the Loam suggestion although I can't take full credit for that. The Sylvan Library looks sweet as well. 20 lands looks pretty tight - what exactly is your manabase? I know TA lists don't traditionally run any basics and I obviously haven't seen your manabase yet but that might be something to consider - a single basic island.

Props for brewing that list, can't wait to play it. Plz write a tournament report next time you go shit on your LGS.

[Tombstalker]

atropos
@Tombstalker: Dude that list looks CockDiesel as fuck, I can't wait for my Lilianas to come in so I can shit all over people with Team America again. Glad you enjoyed the Loam suggestion although I can't take full credit for that. The Sylvan Library looks sweet as well. 20 lands looks pretty tight - what exactly is your manabase? I know TA lists don't traditionally run any basics and I obviously haven't seen your manabase yet but that might be something to consider - a single basic island.

Props for brewing that list, can't wait to play it. Plz write a tournament report next time you go shit on your LGS.
Thanks man! I cant take full credit for this either since someone else had the idea to drop stifles for more business. Ya library, loam, lilianas theres just sooo much functional overlap and synergy its disgusting. Manabase is the usual 9 fetch, 4 seas, 2 bayous, 1 trop 4 wastes. Ive been toying with losing a wasteland to bring the 4th ponder back. Probably not worth the exchange but wasteland isnt as vital in this build and occasionally forces mulligans.

[Spike]

Got top2 (pricesplit) in our local legacy event today. Played my usual list, the only changes I made were -1 Preordain, -1 Sylvan Library, +2 Temporal Mastery. Wanted to see how the card performs in a tournament before BoM and I have to say it is pretty strong in this deck. Team America is the perfect place for TM as we play Force, Brainstorm, Ponder and seven aggressive fliers. Got some other techs but they'll remain secret till after Annecy :)

Regarding Darkblast: Its a sweet sideboard card but I wouldn't play it MD. You (at least I do) want your MD as flexible as possible and not being able to kill many relevant creatures with your removal would be pretty annoying for me. But if it works for you thats fine. I would be interested in your further results with the card.

Regarding Loam: It can be strong but I'm not sure if it fits the gameplan of this deck. You want to disrupt your opponent every turn by playing discard, creatures and free removal backed by free counters. Playing loam gives your opponent a turn to breathe and to recover from your early disruption. Its pretty slow and besides that, what are you going to do with those extra lands? You dont really need more than three on the battlefield, so its only really usefull if you also have a Brainstorm in hand. If you want to play loam I definitely would play a more controlling version like BUG control.

Regarding basic Island: Nope. BB is crucial for this deck. Thats why I only play one Tropical cause you almost never want to see it before turn three. I would encourage you to test it yourself. Then you'll see how much it impairs the performance of the deck.

[Tombstalker]

Spike- Looking forward to your results and your secret tech. Could you elaborate more on TM? I tested it in canadian but that deck just doesnt have the power to abuse it like TA can. My list is modeled after your tapout philosophy then it diverges from there but I gotta say thanks because your inovation brought my TA back from retirement with a vengeance.

On darkblast, I could say all the usual stuff but obviously you know its power. Instead ill just say it fits. Snuffs are the nutz but 3 can cause problems and I like a x/1 removal spell at will. Lastly the two dredgers really help facilitate stalkers.

Loam is functional overlap of the 2nd library/3rd liliana that builds on each. Obviously great with brainstorm but ponder, library and liliana each abuse loam too. I have never really bought into it in TA either until now but so far im never sorry to draw it. Thing is it brings another angle of attack with wasteland, completely denies mana screw and also gets rid of mana flood when combined with cantrips. Its pretty oppressive. As for what I do with the extra lands, I play them and/or toss them to liliana or brainstorm or use them to wastelock. What ive found so far is that casting it after hitting 3 lands facilitates the 4th drop without losing momentum and gains sick CA. Its pretty amazing to be able to have 5 lands in play and a grip of cards for brainstorming. Anyway thats my recent experiences with it as a 1-of, I may change my mind but for now im really liking it.

Regarding basic Island I agree it wont work. I didnt even like it in canadian but BB makes it a complete nonbo in TA.

[atropos]

@Spike: Yeah dude, I'm looking forward to seeing your list as well. Best of luck!

@Tombstalker: Alright, well nevermind about the basic island, it was just a thought.

[Tombstalker]

Boom! I knew TA was gonna coming back haha! I wonder if this means we will have to start considering dismember again? At least I shouldnt locally for now but you never know.

Atropos- sorry for the short reponse on that basic. Its a good idea in theory to avoid wasteland and still cast threats, countermagic and cantrips for more lands. In fact canadian thresh can get away with one because of their increased blue density pushing 30 count plus dismember and lack of double color spells. I even used a basic for awhile to handle the mirror and it was decent but overall I found the advantages to be less than the drawbacks. A single basic wont prevent someone from mana screwing us but LftL might. That card has been kickass since I put it in, just not sure now if im being OCD in trying to fix something that aint broke, so to speak. Anyway it stays for now and I doubt it will ever be less than SB for me. Its that good and thanks for suggesting it.

[atropos]

Hell yeah DTB status.

@Tombstalker: I figured the necessity to get BB was the case, just wasn't sure if it was at least possible to squeeze in an island. Also, any thoughts on adding Temporal Mastery as a 2-of?

[Tombstalker]

@Tombstalker: I figured the necessity to get BB was the case, just wasn't sure if it was at least possible to squeeze in an island. Also, any thoughts on adding Temporal Mastery as a 2-of?
IDK man, I threw it in today to test a little and didnt really like it but I didnt spend much time with it. That being said spike posted above with what seemed like decent results. Its ok to great if not drawn in the opening 10 or so I would think, and crappy any earlier then that. Id like to hear what other players have found in testing TM.

[wcm8]

Regarding this deck's upgrade to DTB status, I think it's probably due to the confusion of naming conventions for UBG legacy decks. Although there is certainly plenty of overlap in card choices, there are at least 3 different archetypes associated with the 'Team America' name: the faster tempo-oriented lists; the midrange aggro control lists; and the plodding control lists with late-game inevitability. I think if TC decks (or whatever database they are using to calculate DTB status) properly separated the archetypes, none alone would have enough top-8 prevalance to be considered a DTB.

However, the common thread here is that non-basic hate is probably down and combo is probably up, making any UBG archetype a potentially good choice going forward. It also helps that black as a splash color generally gives you a stronger chance against Maverick than red. Esper Blade is also somewhat easier for the archetype to deal with than the traditional U/W Blade lists -- they have less relevant counterspells, more susceptibility to mana disruption, and Lingering Souls isn't exactly that difficult for black to handle out of the board. RUG remains *slightly* favorable for TA, as discard and Tombstalker are trumps in this matchup.

Anyways, back to the aggro/control tempo discussion...

We can run circles around main deck choices, but I think what may be more important right now is discussing the SB. Here are some cards that I think are really good right now:

Darkblast
Massacre
Diabolic Edict
Spell Pierce / Dispel
Hydroblast / BEB (burn is a real threat... PoP = GG. It also has applications elsewhere)
Life from the Loam (as a singleton)
Thrun, the Last Troll (our version of Sulfuric Vortex)
Dread of Night (our version of Sulfur Elemental)
Graveyard hate in general (Dredge is coming back as a force to reckon with -- going into a tournament with less than 4 devoted slots is folly)

If I were going to play a tournament this weekend, my SB would probably look like this:

3 Spell Pierce
4 GY Hate (probably 2 Nihil, 2 Grafdigger's)
2 Dread of Night
2 Diabolic Edict
1 LftL
1 Thrun
1 Darkblast
1 Jace, TMS

[Tombstalker]

wcm8- I think your dead on in your assessment, on the confusion of UBg classification but especially regarding the metagame.

Regarding SB options I agree with most of your choices and thrun is a really nice addition I hadnt considered recently, might have to dust mine off. Why edicts over perish though? Liliana does edicts better and Sigarda, host of herons plus opposing thruns and maverick in general make me think a couple perish are mandatory. Ive never regretted them anyway.

[wcm8]

Perish is fine instead, or a 1/1 split. I'm thinking Edicts more for the Show and Tell/Reanimator and RUG matchups.

Another idea I'm testing is the singleton sideboard. It's slightly weaker against everything since you don't overload against any particular strategy, but it's potentially stronger in a random tournament because you'll likely have *something* to bring in. Here's a sample list, which of course can be modified:

1 LftLoam
1 Jace TMS
1 Thrun
1 Darkblast
1 Perish
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Duress
1 Counterspell / Dispel
1 Hydroblast
1 Dread of Night
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction / Extirpate

[from Cairo]

Another idea I'm testing is the singleton sideboard. It's slightly weaker against everything since you don't overload against any particular strategy, but it's potentially stronger in a random tournament because you'll likely have *something* to bring in. Here's a sample list, which of course can be modified:

1 LftLoam
1 Jace TMS
1 Thrun
1 Darkblast
1 Perish
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Duress
1 Counterspell / Dispel
1 Hydroblast
1 Dread of Night
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction / Extirpate

I tend to favor this style of SB for decks, especially with a cantrip package. I tend to focus 2-3 slots towards particular match ups, then 1-2 slots to wider application stuff. For these wider application slots I'd err on the broader application side for the flex slots.

IE for an American meta figure ~5 slots dedicated to Maverick, ~5 slots against RUG and ~5 flex.

I'd probably run something like

2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Flusterstorm
2 Dread of Night
2 Extirpate
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Darkblast
1 Duress
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Life from the Loam
1 Krosan Grip

[wcm8]

I tend to favor this style of SB for decks, especially with a cantrip package. I tend to focus 2-3 slots towards particular match ups, then 1-2 slots to wider application stuff. For these wider application slots I'd err on the broader application side for the flex slots.

IE for an American meta figure ~5 slots dedicated to Maverick, ~5 slots against RUG and ~5 flex.

I'd probably run something like

2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Flusterstorm
2 Dread of Night
2 Extirpate
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Darkblast
1 Duress
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Life from the Loam
1 Krosan Grip

The main critique I'd have of your SB is the lack of late-game control bombs like Thrun and Jace. I'm not saying these guys are *essential*, but there are certain matchups where having them as an option is incredibly strong.

I also think that the SB should perhaps focus on some of the most common, weak matchups we have -- such as Burn and Dredge.

So thinking about it a bit further, I may want the following:

1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast (these also can counter a game-ending Blood Moon or Sneak Attack. also relevant again with Goblins making a comeback due to Cavern of Souls.)
4 GY hate (a mixture seems fine, especially since the extirpate comes in vs. Loam and grafdigger's comes in against Blade and possibly elsewhere. Splitting Nihil and Tormod's means that an oppossing Reanimator player will have a bit more difficulty if they bring in Pithing Needle)
1 Spell Pierce
1 Duress
1 Thrun, TLT
1 Jace, TMS
1 Perish / Virtue's Ruin
1 Darkblast
1 Dread of Night (obviously relevant against Lingering Souls, but also clears away a significant portion of Maverick or at least gets them in DBlast range)
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Maelstrom Pulse / Pernicious Deed / Engineered Explosives / Krosan Grip / Seal of Primordium (Pulse is the most versatile, but having a sweeper can be nice. K Grip/Seal are worth considering in this slot as well, though I'm not sure they're a necessity.)

[wcm8]

edit: 1UG cascade is not worth it. UG would have been sweet

[Tombstalker]

In theory cascade bear would help find our sb hate but do you think he's really better than hymn or the 3rd stalker? I haven't tested so its an honest question. My initial thoughts are no because it waters down our disruption for a 2/2 body + Cantrip, but I could be wrong. Not that it isn't an undercosted and potentially powerful card, just not sure its powerful enough for TA.

19 lands is perfect Ive found btw, although I have dropped the 4th wasteland rather than a true source/fetch. With the slightly higher curve now and absence of stifle I honestly feel this is the right move to relegate wasteland to anti utility land duty and of course obvious mana screw opportunities while sometimes using as a colorless source. LftL main or side means 3 is enough to wastelock or deal with reoccurring manlands IMO. Still torn on where to put loam ATM.

[wcm8]

In theory cascade bear would help find our sb hate but do you think he's really better than hymn or the 3rd stalker? I haven't tested so its an honest question. My initial thoughts are no because it waters down our disruption for a 2/2 body + Cantrip, but I could be wrong. Not that it isn't an undercosted and potentially powerful card, just not sure its powerful enough for TA.

19 lands is perfect Ive found btw, although I have dropped the 4th wasteland rather than a true source/fetch. With the slightly higher curve now and absence of stifle I honestly feel this is the right move to relegate wasteland to anti utility land duty and of course obvious mana screw opportunities while sometimes using as a colorless source. LftL main or side means 3 is enough to wastelock or deal with reoccurring manlands IMO. Still torn on where to put loam ATM.

Check out the list I just posted above and run a few goldfishes for yourself. The card may seem underwhelming at first glance, but it's actually surprisingly strong. You'll see that I'm also dropping Hymn in favor of the 1cmc discard, increasing this guy's versatility.

[Tombstalker]

IoK/TS would work well, I will test it out when I get home for sure. Mostly I'm skeptical because you can't predict what it hits and a 2cc ponder isn't that good even considering the 2/2 body. Bob is better although he doesn't play well with stalkers but its the non evasive part that really keeps bob out of TA. Still this is all just theory on my part. At the least I could see it spawning some type of ancestral control.

[wcm8]

IoK/TS would work well, I will test it out when I get home for sure. Mostly I'm skeptical because you can't predict what it hits and a 2cc ponder isn't that good even considering the 2/2 body. Bob is better although he doesn't play well with stalkers but its the non evasive part that really keeps bob out of TA. Still this is all just theory on my part. At the least I could see it spawning some type of ancestral control.

You don't really need to have its target predicted, because all of them are good (aside from lategame topdeck-mode discard). However, you *can* manipulate what it cascades into by setting it up via Ponder/Brainstorm. It's like a miniature Bloodbraid Elf in better colors.

[Tombstalker]

Double post

[Tombstalker]

Hmmm the mini bbe part is true and it definitely jives well with burn spells. It seems to want something more and bolts would be best. Not the right thread but how about grixis colors with bolts, ancestral visions, delvers and brainstorma as the only 1cc spells seems tasty. What you think? Then against grave strategy bring in extraction effects ftw!

[wcm8]

Hmmm the mini bbe part is true and it definitely jives well with burn spells. It seems to want something more and bolts would be best. Not the right thread but how about grixis colors with bolts, ancestral visions, delvers and brainstorma as the only 1cc spells seems tasty. What you think? Then against grave strategy bring in extraction effects ftw!

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22268-Team-Grixis-(UBr-tempo)&p=643144&viewfull=1#post643144

Let's keep discussion in this thread to the UBG lists. :D

Edit: Annnnddd we were misled. The new cascade creature apparently costs UG, not UB. Thus, he is still playable in TA, but will not be seeing inclusion in Grixis.

Edit 2: apparently cost 1UG. All my excitement and speculation for this card has evaporated.

[AlmostGrown]

Tombstalker, what is your manabase?

[Tombstalker]

Wcm8- Ya cascade bear is pretty worthless now.

Almostgrown- currently its 9 fetch, 4 seas, 2 bayou, 1 trop, 3 wasteland. Im always trying new things but so far this one feels better then the normal at least in my build.

[Blitzbold]

Wcm8- Ya cascade bear is pretty worthless now.

Almostgrown- currently its 9 fetch, 4 seas, 2 bayou, 1 trop, 3 wasteland. Im always trying new things but so far this one feels better then the normal at least in my build.

Which is the 41st card you are playing instead of land #20?

[Tombstalker]

Below is my current list, the 41st card is darkblast I suppose although I had originally cut a ponder to fit darkblast. However 20 lands can flood and without stifle I don't feel 4 wastes are as imperative. I've gone through some radical changes recently but barring 1 flex spot this is what ill roll:

16 mana lands
3 wasteland

4 delver of secrets
4 tarmogoyf
3 tombstalker

4 force of will
3 daze
3 hymn
3 IoK

2 maelstrom pulse
3 snuff out
1 darkblast

4 brainstorm
4 ponder
2 liliana of the veil
1 sylvan library

Board 15
2 dread of night
3 spell pierce
3 surgical extraction
1 extirpate
1 LftL
2 perish
3 duress

Right now I'm really looking for a reason to main deck loam. I ran it for a couple nights and it was nuts except in my opener where when combined with library etc left me with diluted disruption. The card totally powers up all our cantrips, Liliana, library, stalker and wasteland which is probably reason enough even without retrace or manlands, just undecided for now but ill continue to sub it in and see how it goes.
Regarding my removal choices it seems like too many but its not. I have 8 total with 4 that create CA, these same 4 are never dead against non creature strategies though so in reality I simply have 4 spot removal. The deck is amazing and has a surprisingly powerful late game while retaining a tempo plan. Loam only adds to this by increasing the quality of my other spells immensely, at the expense of possibly slightly weaker openers.

[Blitzbold]

That's the same list you posted a page ago. I know it without looking it up because I build the deck in paper for testing purposes today. ;-)

There are two differences with the maindeck, though: -1 Wasteland, -1 Loam (I'd keep this in the main!) - therefore that list above only contains 58 cards (39 + 19 lands).

[Tombstalker]

Actually its -1 loam -1 wasteland +1 ponder +1 snuff out. The lone flex spot for me is ponder vs loam and I go back and forth right now. Also apologies for all the lists lately its probably annoying so ill stop, just easy to copy paste from my phone.

[Koby]

I like the direction you're taking with your list Tombstalker. Just not sure about 2-3 Snuff Out. They don't seem so great against a RUG/Combo metagame. I'm tempted to run Go for the Throat/Smother/Ghastly Demise in its place. Something to deal with Delver but without losing a shitton of life.

[Tombstalker]

Thanks Koby, snuff out really is the best all around choice imo allowing us to flip momentum while playing threats. Also dodging early dazes and costing 1 against Thalia are pretty relevant. Good news is stalker owns thresh, goyf too and postboard 2 snuffs can come out. Submerge is a beast against stalker but perish, pierce, duress and loam are all good here while any burn based removal deck will need to 2 for 1 against most of our threats barring the odd dismember.
If this deck starts coming back in force again though I could see boarding some number of gftt for opposing stalkers. I don't see too much storm combo locally but demise would be my prefered alternative vs delver if I start having problems.

I follow your posts from time to time and I can see you are a very good and dedicated player so I'm sure this isn't news to you, just my thoughts.

[Einherjer]

I started to play TA (again) a few days ago and started with your list aswell Tombstalker! I like the overall feeling of the deck ( took the one you posted a few pages ago ) and I wouldnt cut the 4th Wasteland...ever.

But still, I hate the Tempo-Mirror speak Canada(RUG) vs America(BUG) as Canadian seems to have an edge over us due to playing simply the better tempo-colors. Ofc we have the better lategame but it feels so bad to play the defensive role while playing TA! Do you guys have any advices on how to approach the RUG-MU in general?

Greetings

[wcm8]

To more consistently beat RUG, just make a few changes to the deck:

-3 Snuff Out
+3 Ghastly Demise
-4 Hymn
+4 1cmc discard

Paying 4 life to kill a creature against a deck with burn is not the best idea. Aside from Mongoose (which shouldnt be *that* big of an issue for us), all their creatures will die to Demise.

Hymn is unlikely to resolve -- they simply have too many counterspells to make it reliable. Sure, they can still spell Pierce/Daze the 1 cmc discard, but it's less of an investment to us.

If you play tight, TA is slightly favored in this matchup. Tombstalker really makes a huge difference, because it blanks all of their creatures or at least forces them to make 2-for-1 trades.

If you somehow manage to get Liliana to resolve and stick around for a couple turns, they've pretty much lost the game.

[Tombstalker]

This deck doesn't like to play reactive even against Canadian thresh. Shipping back loose openers is a must. Establishing the manabase and sticking a stalker are the goals, play duals before fetches for early drops otd etc. Tbh wasteland performs the roll of mana producer foremost here for me. This is also why daze is a 3 of, to not impair our development. This deck looks to have an aggressive start even otd, if thresh drops delver t1 and you can snuff theirs and drop your own do it.

Also coming from tempo thresh you may want to consider these differences:
-miser fow more, blue count is much lower here. Its meant only to stop combos, stalker removal and kotr etc.
-use cantrips to exert pressure, sometimes even BS on your turn. Sounds crazy but this deck plays alot more sorcery speed spells and less counter magic. Sure you may still find daze/fow or force fodder in response to a casting but much less reliably.
-don't ship lands away til you establish 3-4, wasteland counts as 3rd if necessary. I've found I like wasteland better when I don't use it as aggressively as tempo thresh does. Too many decks can simply trump mana denial now but our advantage remains the most undercosted powerful spells/beaters and now a decent late game too.

Other than that i don't usually try to save delver unless its gonna be game winning.

[rchinnock]

Only major difference between this and other TA lists I've seen is (1) delver, and (2) no wasteland, and you cut some lands to do this. Also, more contrips (preordain) helps to establish a mana base early if you are worried about that, to power out tombstalker, and to keep your draws good in the late game. 1 Maelstrom pulse adds a 5th removal spell which is also good against things like Jace and Lingering Souls, both of which seem like annoying things to deal with if you get off to too slow of a start. ... etc. What do people think?

4 delver of secrets
4 tarmogoyf
4 tombstalker
4 force of will
3 daze
2 inquisition of kozilek
2 thoughtseize
4 hymn to taurach
4 snuff out
1 maelstrom pulse
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
2 preordain

4 underground sea
4 tropical island
1 bayou
4 polluted delta
4 misty rainforest
1 verdant catacombs

[Tombstalker]

4 delver of secrets
4 tarmogoyf
4 tombstalker
4 force of will
3 daze
2 inquisition of kozilek
2 thoughtseize
4 hymn to taurach
4 snuff out
1 maelstrom pulse
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
2 preordain

4 underground sea
4 tropical island
1 bayou
4 polluted delta
4 misty rainforest
1 verdant catacombs
Ive cut to 3 wasteland + LftL with no problem but I would never drop it completely, there are just too many nasty utility lands in the format. Also tropical island is the worst land in the deck you never want more then 1 in your 75.
Other than that it looks like youve gone 'all in' on the creature plan which is ok but I think your missing out on library and liliana. Consider dropping a snuff out and a preordain for lilianas at least.

[rchinnock]

I agree with what you say about wasteland. I think I'll play at least three - its obviously so good with both daze and tombstalker, and just relevant in general for things like grove of the burnwillows, not letting them get a Jace out, etc. I don't know about Liliana's, though. They do seem perfect for the deck, but I don't really want to cut any snuff outs unless they prove to be worse than they seem. Free removal that makes your goyfs bigger, your tombstalker's cheaper, and turn on delver, seems perfect. And you don't really want to cut any blue spells, otherwise force gets awkward. I think! I'll try testing her sometime though, maybe she's worth it. And finally, if I'm not going to cut any snuff outs, I'm not sure Sylvan Library really fits, simply because you lose a lot of life, between fetchlands, thoughtseize, snuff out, and force of will. But maybe it is still worth playing: another card I need to test. And yeah, its seems logical to go all-in on the creature plan. You already play so much disruption that 12 creatures really isn't that many - just the same number that Canadian Threshold plays. But maybe I should cut a tombstalker for a liliana or something?

[Tombstalker]

Play the deck as you have it and you will see what I mean about the manabase and some of the other choices. Snuff out is every bit as good as it seems but 4 is painful while Liliana is reoccurring removal and discard. She's good against combo and on a clear board nearly wins games by herself. Plus she diversifies your hate and gives late game power.

Library is a bomb, you don't have to pay life because the card filtering alone wins games. It also really punishes StP on our creatures. If someone swords my stalker/goyf ill draw 2-3 for little drawback. If it gets destroyed goyf just got bigger same with Liliana.

Regarding tombstalker- I've made hasty posts here before about adding the 4th stalker but Ive always immediately reconsidered right after saying it. 4 is greedy and will clog hands, we may as well consider them legends. The original build ran 4 but with delver that is no longer a necessary evil.

What I meant by "all in" was that your deck seems to revolve around feeding stalkers and is a little heavy, IMO, on cantrips and discard. Some people play a 9th Cantrip some play 8 and 8 discard but I think you will find 10 and 8 too much when some if these could be more 'business'.

Anyway just some thoughts.

[wcm8]

I think that the current 'base' main-deck list going forward should be this:

20 Lands*
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
1 Sylvan Library
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Liliana of the Veil (I feel that she is a given, but feel free to disagree)
4-6 Discard**
4-6 Removal/Utility***

*9 Fetchlands, 4 Underground Sea, 1-2 Tropical Island, 1-2 Bayou, 3-4 Wasteland

I think if you are not running Hymn to Tourach, I would opt for the 2nd Tropical instead of the 2nd Bayou. These differences are minute however. Despite its similarity to RUG, I would not drop below 20 lands in TA -- as others have pointed out, this deck really wants to have 3 lands out most of the time.

**1 mana discard seems better in a well-developed metagame. No, seriously, it is. Against RUG, Stoneblade, and tier 1/2 combo decks, you want immediate pin-point discard. Hymn is better if you are playing in an area with less tier 1 presence -- e.g. against decks like Burn, Rock-esque midrange aggro decks, Zoo, etc. Hymn's card advantage is stronger since these decks often rely more on redundancy than specific interaction. You can of course run any combination of Inquisition, Thoughtseize, and Hymn, but I do truly believe that the main incentive for running black is discard and would not run less than 4 slots.

***I am seriously liking the singleton Darkblast in the maindeck, as there seems to be enough decks that get completely screwed by it to justify running it. To round out the removal, I'm running 2 Maelstrom Pulse, 2 Ghastly Demise, and 1 Snuff Out. That said, I can understand if people opt to run a Preordain, some Spell Pierces, etc. depending on the types of decks in their area somewhere in these slots.

[Goddik]

Quick resume of my BOM experience.

7-2-1 in the friday trial event (21 out of 400-500 i think) playing Team America, draw with aggro loam and loss to countertop and maverick
6-2-1 in the main event (62 out of 766) playing BUG Midrange, losses to canadian and a pox-loam deck (final round). Draw with U/W countertop.

I will write up some more detailed notes about where i see BUG in the current meta at some later point. Some quick bullet points:

-Dont drop the wastelands!!!
-Snuff out is one of the main reasons i would play the snapcaster-less aggro list
-Liliana is not essential, it is marginal against most non-tempo decks, i did not run liliana on the friday and wish i had cut her on the saturday. Note that other smart players disagree with me on this one (shoutout to Spike here)
-U/W miracle/countertop is a very real deck and traditional Team America gets wrecked by Sensei's divining top. I think my opponent had top in 80% of the games i lost over the weekend, not kidding. I am now 90% certain that you should always seize/force top when given the chance.
-Corrospondingly Deed is very good in the control mirrors as it blanks most of that deck -Jace
-The play a creature and hope it survives plan sucks against top big time. The best cards in my deck on the friday were the two Jaces i boarded in in every matchup. I feel like that is somehow a general statement about where the deck should be going forward.
-Canadian Threshold is a beast if you play the more midrangy decks. Very uphill if you are not prepared for it, both in card choices and in having done the testing to let you play around all of their disruption.
-You guys should be looking into BUG control lists with basics and Tarmogoyf to beat up on the current metagame. Currently working on a list that seems promising.

[wcm8]

-You guys should be looking into BUG control lists with basics and Tarmogoyf to beat up on the current metagame. Currently working on a list that seems promising.

Nicely done. Please keep me/us posted on your new list, with work I haven't really been able to do much real testing at all lately.

[Tombstalker]

Goddik- great showing brother I look forward to a report. I've recently put deed in my board as well as loam main. Mind sharing your lists with us? I'm curious because I kinda look at my current build as a mesh of traditional TA and midrange BUG. I'm more of the opinion that this is the stronger build, due mostly to the prevalence of tempo thresh and stoneblade while still maintaining a slightly favorable matchup against maverick. As you said midrange suffers against thresh which is probably the most dominant deck in the format, arguably.
Edit forgot to add burn to that list.

Anyway strong showing so congrats again.

[Goddik]

Will write up something if i get time. Probably more a report on the testing and the subtleties of the lists then the actual event as I can't recall the rounds.

Btw, I don't think that it is universally true that a BUG midrange deck looses to Canadian, merely that a BUG midrange deck that isn't build with a very close eye to the matchup does. I am confident that there is a build that beats it.

The beauty of BUG is that you can beat almost anything with it, provided that your build and play is tight.

[rchinnock]

It seems to me like running eight discard spells goes well with running a lot of cantrips - as you can go all-in early, discarding spells, countering shit, playing snuff out, and casting your creatures, and then when you use up your initially pool of resources, you can cantrip into more. So that's sort of my rational for running 1-2 preordain, in addition to: you need blue spells for force of will, and: I don't really like the idea of running non-free counters since you tend to tap out almost every turn for the first 3 turns or so, playing discard spells, cantriping when you need to for delver, and casting creatures --- so what other blue spells are there to run, besides a couple more cantrips? They usually don't seem awkward to me, so long as I start the game with some number of counters/discard spells so that I just don't cantrip all day before getting started on actually interacting with my opponent.

If I were to play any amount of liliana's, I definitely wouldn't play many counters beyond force of will and daze, since I don't like the idea of having to discard my counters when if I had a creature I could have just cast it. Also, the card-disadvantage of force of will seems awkward with Liliana, in my opinion.

Finally, 4 snuff out seems fine, since even if you lose 8 life that's not the end of the world if they have no creatures out. Against Zoo or RU delver, this might not be true, however. Against RUG I haven't had too much of a problem with the life loss since they really don't run all that much burn most of the time, unless they have snapcaster or do the chain-lightning plan instead of forked bolt. Liliana does seem like a good supplement if you want more removal. Or maelstrom pulse, which seems nice to have against batterskull, lingering souls, Jace, etc.

This is what I have right now:

4 delver of secrets
4 tarmogoyf
3 tombstalker
4 force of will
3-4 daze
2 thoughtseize
2 inquisition of kozilek
4 hymn to taurach
4 snuff out
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
1-2 preordain

4 wasteland
4 underground sea
2 tropical island
1 bayou
4 polluted delta
4 misty rainforest
1 verdant catacombs

[Goddik]

Here you go. We call this "the scalpel" ;)

3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Dismember
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Ponder
3 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Life from the Loam
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Massacre
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 2 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 2 Perish
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Pernicious Deed

This is basically based on theorycrafting, 2 months of gaming with midrange BUG and a bunch of testing against Canadian thresh in the airport on the way home. I personally won't have time to run it much before July and was hoping some of you guys would take it for a spin in the meantime to get some data before Ghent. Testing seems very promising though and I would snap play it at a GP tomorrow.

Notes:

Basics: The games i loose are often to wastelands, being able to play around these eliminates a whole bunch of losses to both Canadian and Maverick. Thalia, waste is much less scary when you go basic, basic,basic. It makes it much easier to assemble the deed that is often your one card combo in many matchups.

Hymn: Quite frankly, it is not good in the current meta. Loosing it means you get less brute force wins, but I don't actually feel like you need it. The deck is quite the beast already. I would also rather run basics then Hymn. It makes our long game much better because we can lock it up with counterspell and top instead of top-decking useless cards.

Liliana: Insane against RUG, mediocre against most other decks including maverick. Liliana is good at locking up games you have already won. I am tired of boarding her out in 70% of my matches because my opponent plays entreat the angels, lingering souls or no creatures (and is not a combo deck). I am strongly considering it in the board. The engineered explosives fullfill the same role against mongoose but can also stop tokens, vials, counterbalances etc

Tarmogoyf: We tried removing these and had a 10-0 set against RUG (wrong side of that result). Then we put them back in. Goyf is crucial unless you go with the truckload of lilianas and innocent blood plan.

RUG Matchup: This one is a tightrope, a bit like playing against standard faeries. You NEED to play around their dazes, stifles, pierces etc. while you use your life total as a precious resource. I think the matchup is quite decent with this deck but it does require you to play very competently. Stifles often need to be baited with fetches so you can get your deeds and explosives to resolve. Deed or goyf is your desired board state and the discard, forces etc exist to make that happen. We are still in the process of ironing out the sideboard plan but I am convinced that the matchup should get much better after board. God have mercy on their souls if they left home without stifle ;)

Tops: This deck loves to durdle in long games and has lots of sweet 2-3 offs that break games open. Top helps you find lands, deeds, Jaces and discard/counterspells depending on the situation. It is also much better with basics. I quite like it.

Thrunn in the board: This is a Valaerna speciel. We felt like we lacked a late game trump against RUG that was also good against U/W. Liliana is the alternative in this slot, but i like the way Thrunn locks games and get them dead fast. This one definitely deserves testing though as it is still a bit of an experiment.

2 Massacre, 2 Perish, 1 Deed:
I don't like loosing to Maverick, neither should you! Prudent planning prevents piss poor performance. The pre-board matchup is about 50-50 but the post-board match up should feel like a slaughter if you play around their chokes (forest and swamp are pro lands).

In general it feels like the deck is a fair ammount more robust and stable, but you have to play around more stuff when you don't have hymn to vacuum clean their hand. The deck is awesome at grinding out anything the format has to offer and it win Jace wars like a boss.

Try it out and let me know ;). I kindda wish I could come to Atlanta and grind with it.

[rancOr_]

Goddik - I really like that list ALOT.
Been playing NLT but gonna give this a spin in some upcomming trials to see how it goes. The basics really help out alot in that list.
Few questions : How did the EE's play out for you? Have u tried with spell snares MD- and I would kinda like to fit a Darkblast MD,as its so good and combos with loam/bs/jace too.

Grtz

[Tombstalker]

God have mercy on their souls if they left home without stifle ;)
This made me Lol.

Goddik- I like what you got, few questions though. Has all your testing been preboard? tempo thresh still looks pretty rough even postboard since they can race goyf with delver.

RancOr beat me to it but why no darkblast? That card is an 'I win' button vs maverick if found early. Just curious on your thoughts here because it could replace 1 dismember.

I know you have more in mind for massacre than just maverick. Right? I was running this but I got tired of wiping the board only to see mom/thalia/SFM drop the next turn so I jumped on dread of nights bandwagon instead. I still roll snuff out too though so teeg is a bigger consideration.
Anyway why did you switch back to massacre and what does massacre hit once that dread doesnt continuously stop besides scryb ranger and mana dudes? Something im not thinking of perhaps?

Im also liking the idea of EE main, surprised I havent seen more of this to combat geese.

Whats your plan against sneak and show? I think lilianas should replace edicts actually, better against combo and reanimator too.

Anyway nice list man.

[Goddik]

I think spell snares in this deck are a crutch, they don't really counter anything that can't be solved with other means and they take up space in the deck that you could fill with good cards. I haven't really missed them since I cut them for ponders.

That being said they are awesome with snapcaster

The edicts in the boar also act as snapcaster removals 5-6 against maverick, so I would be carefull with cutting them. If you want room for liliana to combat the American meta (which admittedly seems very RUG dominated at the moment), cut some combination of counterspell, pierce and 1 top and the loam to make room for 2 lilianas in the main. You could also cut the grip in the board for a third liliana.

On explosives: I love these, they are primarily for goose, but they handle a ton of other stuff as well. My only concern currently is that the deck currently has a weakness against planeswalkers as the maelstrom pulses have been cut to make the RUG matchup better.

On postboard RUG: Note that i board out most of my snapcasters, forces and counterspells to make the deck less clunky. I have also been known to shave a Jace though I am currently on the plan of keeping them in.

On Massacre: It sounds like you blow this too early, if they have Mom and Thalia on the board i will gladly sit on it while they hit me for 2 a turn to gain more value. That is not a scary board state. Problem is you can easily loose to hierarchs and other mana-dudes as they still kill your jace. You are on the kill everything plan. Ideally you play massacre and Jace or Liliana in the same turn. I also consistently board out goyf against maverick.

Lingering souls also don't trump Jace if you slowroll your sweepers right. I will gladly sit with a deed in play and take 2 for a couple of turns so i can land a Jace. Getting a little bit outvalued is ok if you brainstorm every turn. Plague and dread are very narrow cards that i would rather not have in my 75. Massacre does a ton of incidental splash damage to random bad decks

[NathanS2k]

Glad to see there's some discussion going on here. I stopped playing my Team America deck ever since few months ago when I went 0-3 dropped in a local tournament. Round 1, I got crushed by a kid who brought a STANDARD R/G aggro deck to a legacy tournament. Round 2, lost to a Burn deck. Round 3, lost to combo Elves. Still kind of traumatized from losing to a kid and his standard deck. :laugh:

[xfxf]

Here you go. We call this "the scalpel" ;)

List...

I believe this list and the following discussion is better suited for this thread Team America (Control Thread) (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23429-DTB-Team-America-(Control-Thread)) Mods are doing some work to keep different versions of BUG lists organized.

[Tombstalker]

I believe this list and the following discussion is better suited for this thread Team America (Control Thread) Mods are doing some work to keep different versions of BUG lists organized.
I think this is why you (Goddik) may be getting some seemingly odd questions/approach to certain cards, since we (I) are examining your build primarily from a tempo mindset. I would be happy to continue the discussion in the BUG control thread though since I do like what you have created.

[Water_Wizard]

Here you go. We call this "the scalpel" ;)

3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Dismember
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Ponder
3 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Life from the Loam
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Massacre
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 2 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 2 Perish
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Pernicious Deed



*** If this needs to be in the BUG Control list, then we'll move it, I think Goddik started with a Tempo list and modified it to its current list, hence its inclusion here. That being said, I am going to reply here, since the post I am replying to is in this thread. ***

Goddik,
Nice deck. I made a few personal changes to it, but nothing major. I was working with your sideboard, and I felt you had too many slots against creature-based decks and not enough slots against combo decks.

For example, against Maverick, I would sideboard:
-2 Counterspell
-1 Force of Will
-2 Spell Pierce
-1 Jace
-1 Thoughtseize
+2 Massacre
+2 Diabolic Edict
+2 Perish
+1 Deed

I like to leave some FOW in against Choke/GSZ. What is your plan against Choke?

However, versus combo decks, like Storm, Sneak and Show, etc., I have to leave dead cards in the deck. I want to sideboard:

-2 Ghastly Demise
-2 Dismember
-2 Pernicious Deed
-2 Engineered Explosives

But, what am I going to add?

+1 Duress
+2 Diabolic Edict vs. Sneak and Show
+1 Krosan Grip (not ideal, maybe good vs. Sneak Attack)
+2 Surgical Extraction

Do you see what I'm saying? With the current main deck / sideboard configuration, we have to leave some number of creature removal spells in our deck (i.e. dead draws).

I think the Massacres should be Flusterstorms and some other small changes need to be made to the deck.

Yes, it dominates creature-based strategies, but it has too many wasted slots against combo decks.

Also, how do you fair against Burn? It seems this deck would really get hurt against Burn (most BUG decks usually die horrible deaths to Burn decks).

To Goddik and everyone else in this thread, how do we make this better? Scavenging Ooze? Blue Elemental Blast? Counterbalance?...

[Goddik]

response posted in the control thread. Lets invade that one and make the mods happy:smile:

[TarmoX]

Why is played Flusterstorm over Mindbreak Trap against Combo???

[Goddik]

they duress you a couple of times and the game often goes long. Ritual -> Adnauseam beats mindbreak trap

[wcm8]

Here's my current list (6/10/12):

20 Lands
4 Tarmo
4 Delver
3 Tombstalker
1 Sylvan Library
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 E Explosives
2 Ghastly Demise (could be Diabolic Edict)
2 Lili otV

SB:
2 Jace
1 Loam
1 Thrun
2 M Pulse
2 N Spell Bomb
2 Extirpate
1 Darkblast
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Gilded Drake
1 Cursed Scroll

The key is with the SB -- knowing when and how to transform into a board control deck. There are some matchups where you should drop the aggro angle and go for the long game.

You aren't going to have a good game against certain decks with this configuration, but against the current onslaught of RUG and SnT decks, this does pretty well in my testing.

[Tombstalker]

Wcm8- man I like you're list. I can't really fault any of your choices except demise. Why not snuff out its so much better in this deck. I am curious what scroll is for though and the absence of spell pierce in your board but otherwise I like the transformational aspect.

[dionykos]

So I've been trying to find a good Tempo deck with black. I've tried Grixis without much success (really, Tarmo is good in Tempo...).

I've read the last few pages of this thread, and I want to give TA (in its purest Tempo version) a try in this meta.

I have a few questions:

- how do you find Liliana? so far I've been rather disappointed. She comes in late, and the discard effect isn't always that great. I'm tempted to remove them both for the 4th Tombstalker (God I love this card) and something else.

- for the removals: snuff out is good, but is probably not a 4 of. I've been trying to find another 2 or 3 removals MD with mana cost 1 or less (Submerge is certainly sideboard material). I like having a Darkblast (as the 5th removal probably), it's quite good with 4 stalkers. Now I need another 2. Pulse is very good but very very slow. Demise doesn't go very well with the stalkers. So I've been thinking, maybe 1 or 2 Disfigure? it deals with Delver/Stoneforge and a large part of Maverick's guys. It's good during a Tarmo/Tarmo fight. What do you think? I'll test them anyway, just like to have your thoughts.

-have you all dropped stifle? I don't like the bad synergy with the discard (ie tapping out for Thoughseize T1), but it deals with Terminus, which might become really relevant in the next few weeks.

- how do you find Hymn in this meta? I really find Thouseize/IoK/Duress better now, to take the exact piece we want (StP, Batterskull, S&T, etc). And if we play a very Tempo oriented version of TA, pin-point discard seems better.

[Esper3k]

I'd really like to give Jace's Phantasm a spin in the tempo version of Team America, especially the builds that are running Hymn to Tourach.

I think Hymn will start to get better as the RUG decks continue to keep dropping their Spell Snares as well.

As much as I love Liliana, she hasn't been as amazing as I would've liked as well. Since we're playing a blue deck, the discard effect can be counterproductive with us holding countermagic / stifle / removal to disrupt opponents who have empty hands.

If you really want a 1 drop black removal spell, you could always try Vendetta?

[dionykos]

Thanks for the quick reply. Vendetta makes us lose life too. I don't play 4 Snuff Out because of the massive loss life, so I'm trying to find another removal to go with 2 Snuff Out.

[Einherjer]

I used to play 2 Snuff Out 2 Ghastly Demise!

[Esper3k]

I liked 3 Snuff Outs and 2 Darkblasts myself. Darkblast is pretty amazing against Maverick.

[Oxmo39]

@ wcm8 :
I do also really like the your list & sb concept. nice idea really !
I just wonder if you encountered any difficulties to reach enough lands when you go for the control route ?
Against which decks do you side in the control tools ?

[Tombstalker]

First im going to give my reasoning for slower cards like liliana, pulse etc in TA. Regarding tempo, we are basically 1cc higher than tempo thresh and therefore usually 1 turn slower. Focusing on the tempo route just makes us a worse version of TT. What we do have though is hard removal, hand disruption, and straight up bombs, not to mention better SB options IMO. TT suffers from a lack of these things (if TT actually suffers from anything). This is where lilianas, pulse, hymns, stalkers, library and friends come in. I tend to look at TA not as a tempo deck but rather as the fastest most aggressive control deck in the format. IMO Stifle has no place in this new TA because these colors function best at full aggression, and tbh canadian just does "tempo" better.
Anyway just my thoughts in general but to answer your questions:


- how do you find Liliana? so far I've been rather disappointed. She comes in late, and the discard effect isn't always that great. I'm tempted to remove them both for the 4th Tombstalker (God I love this card) and something else.
Liliana is situationally good, damn good on a clear board and remember you can drop her off SNT to answer GB/emrakul. She is also good against combo if the game goes long enough to land her, which we can accomplish pretty often, not that combo is that bad for us anyway. I think all of us have considered the 4th stalker at one time or another but it WILL clog your hand, personally I advise against it.


- for the removals: snuff out is good, but is probably not a 4 of. I've been trying to find another 2 or 3 removals MD with mana cost 1 or less (Submerge is certainly sideboard material). I like having a Darkblast (as the 5th removal probably), it's quite good with 4 stalkers. Now I need another 2. Pulse is very good but very very slow. Demise doesn't go very well with the stalkers. So I've been thinking, maybe 1 or 2 Disfigure? it deals with Delver/Stoneforge and a large part of Maverick's guys. It's good during a Tarmo/Tarmo fight. What do you think? I'll test them anyway, just like to have your thoughts.
I currently roll 3 snuff 2 pulse main + 2 liliana. Pretty heavy removal suite with only 3 potential dead cards game 1. I did have darkblast main for awhile and its so good vs maverick but ive since removed it to streamline since im seeing more decks that just dont care about spot removal. DB is lightyears ahead of disfigure though and as you said demise had poor synergy at times with this deck.


-have you all dropped stifle? I don't like the bad synergy with the discard (ie tapping out for Thoughseize T1), but it deals with Terminus, which might become really relevant in the next few weeks.
Yes and I cant imagine looking back. Its just too reactive in the black aggressive shell I play. In TT I believe it is necessary to keep the game state at turn 1-2, but not for us.


- how do you find Hymn in this meta? I really find Thouseize/IoK/Duress better now, to take the exact piece we want (StP, Batterskull, S&T, etc). And if we play a very Tempo oriented version of TA, pin-point discard seems better.
I still love hymn but ive dropped to a 3/3 split because t2 hymn isnt always optimal but a hymn at the right time is still just savage.

[ScatmanX]

Thanks for the quick reply. Vendetta makes us lose life too. I don't play 4 Snuff Out because of the massive loss life, so I'm trying to find another removal to go with 2 Snuff Out.
Paralyze!!!!!
=D

Edit: SCD: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?13908-SCD-Paralyze&highlight=

[wcm8]

Liliana is situationally good, damn good on a clear board and remember you can drop her off SNT to answer GB/emrakul.


Wrong. If this were the case, SnT would hardly be a problem with Jace, Lili, etc in the format. Unfortunately, planeswalkers can't get put into play from SnT.

That said, she is great pre-emptively or as a follow-up to Emrakul.

[wcm8]

Wcm8- man I like you're list. I can't really fault any of your choices except demise. Why not snuff out its so much better in this deck. I am curious what scroll is for though and the absence of spell pierce in your board but otherwise I like the transformational aspect.

Cursed Scroll is experimental right now, basically it's a way to gain a long-term advantage against decks with a TON of removal when you need to punch through for the last few points, or against decks where you know you will get into the long-game. Against certain decks, you can leverage yourself into the 'unbeatable' position of having Jace, Liliana, Library, and Scroll out. At that point, winning is just an elementary matter of not dying. In some matchups, I've also dropped EVERY creature aside from Thrun and maybe a Tombstalker or two, with the idea that they are siding into a ton of targeted removal, and thus I gain virtual card advantage by going the planeswalker route (e.g: Terminus UW control decks, BUG Deedstill, etc.) Scroll functions a lot like a near-unkillable Grim Lavamancer that also happens to kill Mother of Runes and friends since the damage is colorless.

Also, Ghastly Demise could definitely be Snuff Out and/or Diabolic Edict. I'm actually testing with 2 Edicts right now in that slot and it's performing pretty well. I've moved 2 Maelstrom Pulses back into the main, dropped Engineered Explosives and a Thoughtseize, and put 2 Pernicious Deed back into the board. These slots might be changed in the near future, especially if certain cards get banned/unbanned on the 20th this month.

Spell Pierce I feel is a bit too reactive for this deck right now. I am playing black because I want to be pro-active. Against the current 'best' combo deck in the format (SnT), you aren't likely going to win on the stack because they simply have too many counters. Your best bet seems to be either forcing them to discard their creature/enabler, Edicting their Emrakul/Griselbrand (good lucky with that one), or dropping a Sower/Gilded Drake from SnT. It's a winnable matchup, but it's definitely no walk in the park.

For Reanimator, I opted for Extirpate over Surgical because I wanted a card that they can't answer via Daze/FoW/Misdirection. That said, the GY hate mixture could be any of the following: Tormod's, Nihil, Extirpate, and maybe Surgical. A relic of Progenitus or Scavenging Ooze is actually not a terrible idea. Beyond Dredge and Reanimator, you also have to worry about Loam decks since this deck can get Waste-locked quite easily.

You lose to Burn and U/R Delver the majority of the time. Suck it up and move on, this is just not the deck to play if you're expecting a lot of Price of Progress. Hope and pray for the Hymn/double Goyf opener.

The transformational idea is not exactly my own, credit needs to go to Goddik and Dan for starting this idea. UBG have the best options available I think towards winning a long game if needed.

20 Lands + 4 Ponder + 4 Brainstorm + 1 Sylvan Library + 1 Life from the Loam actually makes it quite easy to build up to 4+ lands against decks where you are playing control (hint: you don't go this route against decks that pressure your mana base). I actually like this a lot more than playing 22-24 lands because once you establish the mana, you don't tend to get as many dead topdecks.

I will be sure to post an updated list once the banned list announcement is made on the 20th (which may or may not include any significant changes). I am tentatively planning on running BUG at the next big tournament this month on the 30th, and will keep y'alls posted.

[Tombstalker]

Wrong. If this were the case, SnT would hardly be a problem with Jace, Lili, etc in the format. Unfortunately, planeswalkers can't get put into play from SnT.
Whoa oops I owe someone an apology then, huge misplay.

[Mucho Muchacho]

Hi guys, I´m new in this forum and now I´m playing Joao Akverrinho´s list from Bazaar of Moxen, here you can check it: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8340&iddeck=60774
I like the deck but i don´t like the sideboard, because of my metagame is full of reanimator, Canadian ******** and Maverick. Which sideboard do you recommend?

[Tombstalker]

Good expanations man but god I hope nothing gets banned not even GB + SNT, I like where the format is at right now.

Regarding pierce I agree proactive is usually better, but against combo and grave strategies I still like to increase my counter density and especially my blue count, in addition to bringing in more hand disruption. The other problem is I have around 6+ cards to board out vs SnT/dredge/combo and most other cards against SnT dont cross over. Edit- maybe I should invest in a few flusterstorms.

[dionykos]

First im going to give my reasoning for slower cards like liliana, pulse etc in TA. Regarding tempo, we are basically 1cc higher than tempo thresh and therefore usually 1 turn slower. Focusing on the tempo route just makes us a worse version of TT. What we do have though is hard removal, hand disruption, and straight up bombs, not to mention better SB options IMO. TT suffers from a lack of these things (if TT actually suffers from anything). This is where lilianas, pulse, hymns, stalkers, library and friends come in. I tend to look at TA not as a tempo deck but rather as the fastest most aggressive control deck in the format. IMO Stifle has no place in this new TA because these colors function best at full aggression, and tbh canadian just does "tempo" better.

That's where I'm not sure that I agree :) I believe it may be possible to play TA with focus on the "tempo route". The more I test TA, the more I think that those slower cards in the main (Liliana, pulse, EE, removal at cc2, even Hymn) are the reason why TA isn't doing well in this meta (look at the meta on TC deck for the past few months...).

Now if we compare roughly a Tempo TA and TT:
- mongoose vs Tombstalker : I don't think mongoose is faster. Then mongoose is better in control MU, but Stalker is better in other MUs.
- discard: pinpoint discard can generate a great deal of tempo when targeting a removal.
- bolts : that's where TT has an edge. Bolts are removals and gives reach.
To that list you have to add Stifle (that's why I've been asking about this card in TA).

So TA doesn't have bolts. That's why I think TA should play cheap removals (snuff out is great, but not a 4 of). Darkblast is good but probably a 1 or 2 of (and it doesn't kill stoneforge and the flying delver). You see now why I've been asking about Disfigure, to complete this package of cheap removals.

So in a word, I think TA has great Tempo cards and should be played as a Tempo deck in this meta. Cards like Daze and Snuff Out become much worse in middle-late game. Even FoW is better in TA as a Tempo card : this is our only hard counter, so we can't counter everything, just one removal or one gamebreaker, and 2-1 ourselves is ok if we close the game quicky.
And adding midgame cards like pulse doesn't fix that. Each card in the deck must serve the same strategy (they do different things at different moments, sure, but they should all push in the same direction). My feeling is that adding slower cards makes TA a worst tempo deck, and a bad aggro-control deck (I would rather play Bant if I wanted to play aggro-control).

[Tombstalker]

Maybe I didn't explain myself well enough. The tempo package of fow/daze/wasteland/snuff out is as insane as ever. Stifle otoh doesn't fit as well here because of the aggressive tap out nature of black with higher sorcery count as opposed to TT which packs more reactive instants and more 1cc threats so they can leave mana up for stifle while still forwarding their game plan.

I agree to an extent on the higher cost spells we name but think of the alternatives, i.e. more situational cards like pinpoint discard and more countermagic. there is a point of diminishing returns on these, where its at I'm not certain but diversity is good because of functional overlap.

For reference I currently roll with 2 pulse 2 Liliana 1 library main with full tempo package listed above and 3/3 split of IoK/hymn and its working beautifully. If there is a better alternative to those 5 "value cards" I'm open to suggestions but so far I haven't felt the need to change them, if I did it would likely be for more 1cc discard and to bring darkblast back main. Thing is those are what my board is for.

Regarding TAs showings this has always been a cyclical deck and popularity also plays a factor. The old school pure tempo plan is still powerful but it needs to evolve to see different results, IMO and in TA stifle is often anti tempo.

Anyway just my thoughts and id like to see the list your considering.

[Tombstalker]

Hard to get thoughts across on my phone. Anyway for removal if you don't want to use multi purpose cards like pulse/Liliana I would suggest 3 snuff out 1-2 darkblast , maybe 1-2 edicts. And that's the problem with our removal, all have drawbacks and suffer from diminishing returns. I choose pulse to answer a resolved jtms which otherwise wrecks us, tokens, equipment and so on. Ya its expensive but never dead except on a clear board. After g1 I dial in to meet my needs. Liliana has many corner case uses in addition to filtering otherwise dead draws.

[dionykos]

Thanks for the chat Tombstalker, it's exactly the discussion I wanted to have with someone who knew TA well!


The tempo package of fow/daze/wasteland/snuff out is as insane as ever. Stifle otoh doesn't fit as well here because of the aggressive tap out nature of black with higher sorcery count as opposed to TT which packs more reactive instants and more 1cc threats so they can leave mana up for stifle while still forwarding their game plan.
.

I agree with that, that's why I don't run Stifle (for now). However, as I said, the card helps a lot against Miracle control (on the Miracle Trigger, on Jace bouncing your Tombstalker, etc). And it's a decent card against other main decks of the meta (TT on Wasteland/fetch, Esper on Mystic, etc). I'm not sure it's enough though, that's why I was asking.



I agree to an extent on the higher cost spells we name but think of the alternatives, i.e. more situational cards like pinpoint discard and more countermagic. there is a point of diminishing returns on these, where its at I'm not certain but diversity is good because of functional overlap.

Again I agree, but by nature Tempo has very situational cards. Cards that work very well together in early game (and as long as this "early game state" is maintained), and become worst later.



For reference I currently roll with 2 pulse 2 Liliana 1 library main with full tempo package listed above and 3/3 split of IoK/hymn and its working beautifully. If there is a better alternative to those 5 "value cards" I'm open to suggestions but so far I haven't felt the need to change them, if I did it would likely be for more 1cc discard and to bring darkblast back main. Thing is those are what my board is for.

Obv the difference between your build and a pure-tempo-focused build will be on those 5/6 slots. But don't you feel sometimes that those slots are in fact slowing you down? that you would rather have additional tempo pieces? It's really about how often those slots make you win games you would have lost otherwise, vs how often you lose because they slow you down or force you to make anti-tempo plays.



Regarding TAs showings this has always been a cyclical deck and popularity also plays a factor. The old school pure tempo plan is still powerful but it needs to evolve to see different results, IMO and in TA stifle is often anti tempo.

Popularity surely is a factor, but that may not explain why the deck is doing so badly. It's actually hard to understand, because the way I see it, a Tempo TA has all the pieces to beat the dominant decks of the format (Maverick, Sneak and Show, Esperblade) while having a good chance against THE deck (TT).




Anyway just my thoughts and id like to see the list your considering.

This is what I'm trying (with a few details, I think I justified most of it in my previous posts):

4 Delver
4 Tarmogoyfs
4 Tombstalker - 3?

4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
5 Thoughseize/IoK - 3/2 atm, still not sure about the right split
5 Snuff Out/Disfigure/Darkblast - 2/2/1 atm, again not sure

2 Spell pierce - this is the slot I don't like, and where I'm considering Stifle.

4 Wasteland

3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical island

SB:
4 Extirpate
4 Submerge
2 Maelstrom Pulse (essentially for Control MUs)
2 Spell Pierce
1 Life from the loam
2 Mass removal --> empty sleeves atm, could be Deed, EE, Massacre, Shrivel, etc.
Also maybe 4 grave hate isn't enough.

[Tombstalker]

Obv the difference between your build and a pure-tempo-focused build will be on those 5/6 slots. But don't you feel sometimes that those slots are in fact slowing you down? that you would rather have additional tempo pieces? It's really about how often those slots make you win games you would have lost otherwise, vs how often you lose because they slow you down or force you to make anti-tempo plays.
This is it in a nutshell. However its the alternatives that ive tried that led me to these choices, well that and the innovators of the 'tap out' philosophy..props to them. Hell ive even tried surgical extractions MD and pure UB torpornaught (which rocks btw but gets hated too easy).

Regarding removal roll 3 snuff out. Seriously, you dont want to be stuck with only 2 hard removal for kotr etc in your 60. Demise is sweet but not reliable with TS, dismember is just a worse snuff out. Also dont play disfigure, darkblast is superior especially with 8 cantrips = disfigure in a pinch. I switched back from canadian thresh because I missed the power of blacks removal, discard and tombstalkers so I take full advantage.

I agree spell pierce is the weak link in your main. What to replace with im not sure, I roll hymns in those slots but hymn does suck on the draw. Anyway try the list as written and see how it works for you. I do like the 5 1cc discard you have.

[Esper3k]

@dionykos: btw, Darkblast can kill x/2's. You have to blast on your upkeep, dredge, then reblast.

[Einherjer]

@dionykos: btw, Darkblast can kill x/2's. You have to blast on your upkeep, dredge, then reblast.

And if you do that - youve made alot of card-disadvantage - which is a reason why I do not like Darkblast.


Greetings

[Esper3k]

And if you do that - youve made alot of card-disadvantage - which is a reason why I do not like Darkblast.


Greetings

Just a 2 for 1? It usually isn't worth it to do it on a SFM, but an active Delver, sure.

That's not even Darkblast's primary purpose. I just see it as an added benefit to it.

[wcm8]

Darkblast can also kill even bigger creatures, if you choose to Dredge via Ponder/Brainstorm/Jace's draw. It's not a great play of course, but it's there for desperate situations.

[dionykos]

This is it in a nutshell. However its the alternatives that ive tried that led me to these choices, well that and the innovators of the 'tap out' philosophy..props to them. Hell ive even tried surgical extractions MD and pure UB torpornaught (which rocks btw but gets hated too easy).

Yeah, that's why Pierce and Stifle aren't great here. I tried UBnaught too, but it wins game 1 and that's it pretty much :)

I really wish we could find a replacement for Goyf, so we could go UBr and use bolts. We would be less exposed to Submerge too. WotC: please print a red goyf!


Regarding removal roll 3 snuff out. Seriously, you dont want to be stuck with only 2 hard removal for kotr etc in your 60. Demise is sweet but not reliable with TS, dismember is just a worse snuff out. Also dont play disfigure, darkblast is superior especially with 8 cantrips = disfigure in a pinch. I switched back from canadian thresh because I missed the power of blacks removal, discard and tombstalkers so I take full advantage.

I'm actually considering 2 Pulse in the main. Maybe as a replacement for the two random Pierces. I know, after what I said, I'm starting to put cc3 in my list... however, I really want to keep it to a minimum. That would solve my problem of removals too, and works a bit like the bounces RUG used to play.

Btw, have you tested Disfigure? it's is better than what people think, especially coupled with Snuff Out. It really works like bolts on creatures. I still think that removals should cost 0 or 1 in this deck. Believe me, it's worth testing in a known field (RUG/Mav/Blade).


@Everyone: Yes I know I can double Darkblast an X/2 on my upkeep and in my draw step, or after a cantrip. It's just a terrible play.

[Slayer]

You see Nic I told you pulse is good in the main.

[dionykos]

You see Nic I told you pulse is good in the main.

:) I just said I was considering it. At the moment I stick with 2 Spell Pierce MD, especially with Show And Tell not being banned. The deck would need pulse MD if we face too many Miracle.decks maybe.

3cc is really awful for the tempo, when we want to daze or use wasteland after dropping a threat. Tbh, I'm wondering if Echoing Truth wouldn't be better...

[Slayer]

Imho Truth does not realy solve the prob though.

[rchinnock]

From the testing I've done, I've found that while discard effects are good, they also mess with our tempo plan. It is mostly not because we play slightly bigger cards that we are slower than Canadian Thresh, it is because we play discard. We thoughtseize our opponent, they stifle their first land or play a 1 drop. In one case, the opponent loses a card, in another case, they are behind on their land drops, and are farther away from casting this card that TA thoughtseizes anyways. If we thoughtseize them and then daze something, they are actually behind on mana, and we still don't have a threat out yet! And while Hymn to Taurach is an amazing card, it is an even worse tempo loss. Trying to resolve it against Canadian Thresh through Wasteland, Daze, Spell Pierce, and Force, all while they develop a board presence that is hard to deal with, is ridiculous. I think the best way to play this deck as a tempo deck is to take out the discard, since it absolutely does not mix with the tempo plan at all. It clashes with counters and inhibits the development of our board presence. I think a better plan is to rely on counters and removal and just forget about discard effects.

But then we ask: why black then over red? First of all, hard removal: ghastly demise, in particular, is almost perfect. If you go the nimble mongoose/thought scour plan instead of tombstalker, then you have a deck that works extremely well with ghastly demise, and then you basically get to play a 1 mana removal spell that hits anything. And the second reason to run black: dark confidant. He's low on the curve, so he works well with daze, and he gives our deck an engine. He can take over the game on his own and gets you a lot more threats and disruption as the game goes on than your opponent can handle. People might think he's too slow but if you think that then why do winning Affinity lists play him in Modern?

Thoughtseize might have a place in the board (for more disruption), but as far as the Main goes, I think counters do the job just fine - they provide Canadian Thresh with enough disruption and they can for us too. The best plan for the board may be to have 4 thoughtseize in there and against decks like sneak-n-tell and put them in for your removal.

Finally, I think snuff out doesn't work in this meta. It is too terrible against Canadian THresh to be what we reliably want. Ghastly demise is simply better if you forgo TOmbstalker, and I think that is what the deck should do. YOu get more synergy, and Nimble Mongoose is often better than Stalker anyways, it seems. I love snuff out, but the life loss right now is just too much, I think.

These are just ideas but I think this deck might be what Team America needs to do well in this meta: a better tempo plan (counters give tempo, not discard), hard removal, and more resiliency (in the form of dark confidant, which gives you an engine). Having done this, we have a deck that is more tempo-oriented than the old Team America which played discard, but less so than Canadian Thresh, since we don't play stifle, and we do play dark confidant. Here's an example list:

4 delver of secrets
3 nimble mongoose
4 tarmogoyf
4 dark confidant
4 force of will
3 daze
4 spell pierce
3 ghastly demise
1 dismember
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
2 thought scour

4 wasteland
4 underground sea
2 tropical island
1 bayou
4 polluted delta
4 misty rainforest
1 verdant catacombs

Other things the deck might want to do: Dark Confidant may not be necessary. 1-2 Maelstrom Pulse might be good. A singleton darkblast? a 4th daze?
WHat do people think? DOes this potentially give a new direction for TA? People may say the deck needs discard, but Canadian Thresh doesn't, so why should we? THe absence of discard is the main idea behind this version of the deck. Black has other things to offer, so we don't need to say that we just shouldn't play black if we don't play discard. Also, it should be remembered that black gives much better sideboard options than red does.

[dionykos]

From the testing I've done, I've found that while discard effects are good, they also mess with our tempo plan. (...)

4 delver of secrets
3 nimble mongoose
4 tarmogoyf
4 dark confidant
4 force of will
3 daze
4 spell pierce
3 ghastly demise
1 dismember
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
2 thought scour

4 wasteland
4 underground sea
2 tropical island
1 bayou
4 polluted delta
4 misty rainforest
1 verdant catacombs


Thoughseize can generate Tempo, by taking th exact piece in your controler's hand which will slow them down (their main threat or their removal depending on the MU). Thoughseize only fights with one card with the deck: Delver. I agree that an opening hand with Thoughseize+Delver isn't ideal, but Tombstalker and Goyf comes in only t2/3/4, so Thoughseize is perfect for them.

One could argue the same thing for Stifle: Stifle prevents you from dropping your Delver t1, so it kinds of fight with it since you have to keep a mana open when your opp doesn't use his fetch immediatly. A good player will also probably fetch at your upkeep, which will make you waste a bit of time since you can't play a threat on the same turn.

So I think Thoughseize is good enough in Tempo, as long as it doesn't fight with too many pieces on your decks (it would probably be different if we were running 12 Delvers). On the other hand, I think Hymn is probably not good enough in Tempo, since it requires to tap for 2 mana, doesn't give much information about the cards it doesn't hit, and might miss a piece which can slow you down a lot (a removal for instance).

Now for your list: I understand what you're trying to do, but imho Bob isn't a Tempo card. It's a card which generates CA, but makes you lose tempo (you tap for 2 for something with no immediat effect, and he is probably not a good beater, compared to Tombstalker for instance). Tempo is about speed way before CA. That's why I don't like Sylvan Library in a Tempo oriented build too. Having said that, they can be very good in more control builds. Also, if you want to play Tempo, I would keep 4 Daze.

Feel free to disagree and shout at me if I missed your point :)

[rchinnock]

Well, you are right that at times thoughtseize provides tempo, but often they will just play something else instead of what you discarded, so its often not tempo. And you are right about stifle sometimes losing you tempo. However, I still have some objections.

My main problem with thoughtseize besides the fact that it is a tempo loss unless you play it on the first turn and also don't have delver, is that it its just one more card that is a bad topdeck. In the list I posted the only really bad topdecks are some of the counters (daze, sometimes spell pierce) but aside from that everything else is typically good throughout the game. I think we might have enough disruption without discard that it makes more sense to go a little bigger than Canadian THresh and do somehting else with our black slots.

As for bob - you play him in addition to your critters, so its not really him vs. other creatures, unless you want to play him first. If you just play your other creatures first then you don't realy lose tempo from him - if that's what you're concerned with, or you can play him first if its a more card-advantage-centered/grindy matchup. Basically the main reason for him is that he simply is very powerful, and you don't run less creatures, so he does't really clash with your tempo plan.

I do see why thoughtseize is good, but I think that another legitimate way to make the deck is to cut it and go with more creatures and counters. Again - BOb was played in affinity, which is literally an all-in deck - I don't think he mixes poorly with aggressive strategies necessarily, but maybe I'm wrong. He isn't a super fast clock but he still can attack, and he gets you a lot more threats, removal, counters, etc.

[oRen]

4 delver of secrets
3 nimble mongoose
4 tarmogoyf
4 dark confidant
4 force of will
3 daze
4 spell pierce
3 ghastly demise
1 dismember
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
2 thought scour

4 wasteland
4 underground sea
2 tropical island
1 bayou
4 polluted delta
4 misty rainforest
1 verdant catacombs

I played something fairly similar yesterday but I had -1 Goyf, -1 Land (Fetch), -1 Ponder, -2 Scour (this card is SO fucking bad), +1 Removal, +1 Daze and +4 Stifle. I also played 2/2 Snare/Pierce instead of 4 Pierce because my metagame is always 50% UWx.

The deck was decent and fun to play with but I lost twice to my Confidant against TES and generally missed the reach Bolts provide in RUG. I am pretty sure that some kind of discard would be decent. Overall I am pretty sure that this might be a decent route to go because Confidant is generally as good as it has always been. The Stalker lists are only good against decks which are unable to remove or bounce your creatures (=Combo) and suck pretty hard against anything playing Snapcaster + Swords.

[rchinnock]

WHat about the following list, which does play thoughtseize/inquisition:

4 delver of secrets
3 nimble mongoose
4 tarmogoyf
4 dark confidant
3 force of will
3 daze
3 spell pierce
2 thoughtseize
2 inquisition of kozilek
3 ghastly demise
1 dismember
4 brainstorm
4 ponder

4 wasteland
4 underground sea
2 tropical island
1 bayou
4 polluted delta
4 misty rainforest
1 verdant catacombs

You play the discard, at the cost of a force, a spell pierce, and 2 thought scours... You could also play discard at the expense of your dark confidants but I do suspect that they give the deck another angle of attack which is powerful and also cool. I'm still suspicious of the discard but ... yeah I'll at least consider it :) It seems to me like one essential point is that were not tempo as much as Thresh is, so we shouldn't try to be. We don't play burn ... So if were not trying to be as tempo-based, maybe something like Bob becomes good for us. We go a little bigger than THresh, we have the same amount of disruption, just less reach, and yet we have a real card advantage engine in bob that they don't have.

[Tombstalker]

Those lists are dark thresh which if pretty different but cool all the same. I like DT but IME it just isn't that good. Reasons are without burn it lacks a fast enough clock and removal density and bob dies to burn and chumps. Its fun though which is the number 1 goal, at least to me.
Regarding discard vs counterspells, are you guys serious? TA fucking wrecks face on combo and discard/stalkers are a big part of why. Stalkers also trump burn/rug race Mav and laugh at counterbalance. Hand disruption is great, better than conditional countermagic. Take their best card instead of countering only what they let you see. Ya hymn sucks otd and sometimes otp so board it out or change it for more 1cc discard but don't drop the disruption package altogether. Also the 1cc discard count is so that the deck has a high probability of aggressive t1 plays often with counter backup and free removal to swing tempo, delver>TS> ponder.
Many of the benefits and drawbacks are inherent to the color and strategy but rug this is not.

[Sturtzilla]

I have messed with this deck a little bit, as I was tired of losing to combo decks with RUG. Currently, I am not a real big fan of Dark Confidant. It would seem to me that he is just too easy to deal with for nearly every deck out there. Don't get me wrong, he is a great card. I think I would just rather play something else in its place.

[rchinnock]

It seems like no one likes Dark COnfidant nowadays. He's always been really good for me, but he is small its true. However, you have discard and counters so he should be able to dodge removal a lot of the time, and when he does, he'll likely win you the game. Drawing two cards a turn is pretty damn powerful: you get more counters, more creatures, more removal, more wastelands. I think he should be tested to see if he is as awkward as everyone seems to think he is, since I've never really had bad experiences with him. Even with an old stoneblade list that I used to play a lot against my friend's Zoo deck, Bob would often live with my counters and discard, and if he did die, he would save the next creature I played so it didn't really matter. And even if he only lives one turn he is already a two-for-one. After 2 or 3 turns it can be hard for your opponent to come back from the card advantage you've gained. And finally, he is still a beater. Even if they do have creatures out (and you should often be able to keep their board clear with counters, removal, and discard), he's only a chumper if they're holding their own creatures back. But if they ARE holding their creatures back, that means they're not attacking, and you're drawing extra cards every turn (hopefully burying them in card advantage). If they aren't keeping creatures back, then he attacks just fine like other critters, even if he is small.

[Water_Wizard]

rchinnock - I appreciate what yourself and others are trying to do with this deck. Theoretically, Team American or BUG Tempo or BUG Delver (whatever you want to call it) should be beating ass in the current meta. It has discard and counterspells and a quick clock vs. combo, it has the same plus creature sacrificing effects vs. Sneak and Show and reanimator, it has targeted and mass removal vs. Maverick (Perish, Darkblast, Ghastly Demise, Dread of Night, Engineered Plague on Humans, etc.), and it has enough threats that it should be albe to find more threats than Control has answers (Delver and Mongoose, specifically.

However, the results don't really show that and I think that's what's got everyone a little stumped.

Regarding your quote...


Even if they do have creatures out (and you should often be able to keep their board clear with counters, removal, and discard), he's only a chumper if they're holding their own creatures back. But if they ARE holding their creatures back, that means they're not attacking, and you're drawing extra cards every turn (hopefully burying them in card advantage). If they aren't keeping creatures back, then he attacks just fine like other critters, even if he is small.

This assumes all creatures are held back or all attack. Against a deck like Goblins, Maverick, even RUG, they could easily swing with 1-2 creatures and leave 1 back to chump Dark Confidant.

Also, I question playing Force of Will with Dark Confidant (at least we're not playing Tombstalker). While I think FOW is necessary in this meta, a few bad flips with DC can literally be suicide. Brainstorm and Ponder help to even this out. Also, chances are not high that we will flip FOW with DC, but it is still a consideration.

Sensei's Divining Top? It goes against the Tempo package, but RUG was running it for a while. Counterbalance would be interesting out of the board (with SDT, of course). It would certainly help shore-up the Burn MU and help guarantee Dark Confidant flips <=1.

[dionykos]

Again, Bob and Top are great cards, but they aren't Tempo cards. The reason why some RUG lists where playing Countertop was because they wanted to play control in the mirror MU



Those lists are dark thresh which if pretty different but cool all the same. I like DT but IME it just isn't that good. Reasons are without burn it lacks a fast enough clock and removal density and bob dies to burn and chumps. Its fun though which is the number 1 goal, at least to me.
Regarding discard vs counterspells, are you guys serious? TA fucking wrecks face on combo and discard/stalkers are a big part of why. Stalkers also trump burn/rug race Mav and laugh at counterbalance. Hand disruption is great, better than conditional countermagic. Take their best card instead of countering only what they let you see. Ya hymn sucks otd and sometimes otp so board it out or change it for more 1cc discard but don't drop the disruption package altogether. Also the 1cc discard count is so that the deck has a high probability of aggressive t1 plays often with counter backup and free removal to swing tempo, delver>TS> ponder.
Many of the benefits and drawbacks are inherent to the color and strategy but rug this is not.

I couldn't agree more.

[kiblast]

Guys, would you recommend some TA brew in an aggro/tribal meta ? I'm expecting at least 1 Merfolk, 1 Goblin and 1-2 Combo Elves in a 20 player event this weekend. Combo decks not present (maybe 1 Belcher and/ or 1 Reanimator) and I'm expecting very few blue based control as well (I'm traditionally the Landstill / Dreadstill / Bug Still player, so...:laugh: ). The rest of the meta will be full of the strange/ bad archetypes that Legacy has such as Pox, Cephalid Breakfast, Bant Hexproof , Affinity, Burn etc.

I was thinking of metagaming this list.


Creatures [8]
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf

Istants [18]
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Ghastly Demise

Sorceries [6]
1 Life from the Loam
1 Ponder
4 Inquisition of Kozilek

Planeswalkers [5]
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


Lands [23]
1 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

Which is Joao Akverrinho's list which top4'ed BOM 6 trial.

Basically I'm keeping 6 removals md package ( but splitting 3 Ghastly + 3 Diabolic edict as I just fear the random Mongooses and Bant Hexproof) and the 2 Lilianas, which should perform nicely both in the aggro and in the control matchup (If I should happen to have one).

Then I thought of removing Ponder and 1 Ghastly in favor of 2 Deeds ( once we drop a Deed, we can easily switch to BUG Walker mode). I'll also play some basics to reduce the risk vs. Burn.

I'm keeping Snare over Pierce md as they are better in the aggro mu.

The list is a blend of the two versions of TA, but since I'm playing 8 Creatures (4 of which are Goyfs) I posted in the aggro thread.

That's what my list looks like.

4 Wasteland
4 Usea
2 Trop
2 Bayou
3 Basics (1 of each)
8 U in color Fetchlands

4 Snapcasters
4 Goyf

4 Fow
3 Snare
4 Bs
6 Removals ( 3 Demise + 3 Diabolic)
4 IoK
2 Deed
3 Jtms
2 Liliana
1 Loam

sb will be something like

2 Pierce (no need for the third as Control mu will be rare)
4 instant grave hate (2 Extirpate + 2 Surgicals probably)
2 Nature's claim (all around answer to Choke, B2B etc...)
3 Nourish ( Burn)
4 E plague

Thoughts?

[Dzra]

I think you're probably not looking at it right if you are looking at a hand with Delver/Mongoose and Thoughtseize and are thinking that the Thoughtseize is competing with your 1-drop creature.

Ideally, you lead with the aggressive 1-drop and have a Daze/FoW/Snuff Out/Dark Blast/Ghastly Demise for their follow-up then use the Thoughtseize t2 to steal their next play (that you couldn't otherwise answer). I agree that Thoughtseizing them t1 with an empty board doesn't really get you very far.

The alternative would be if you kept a hand without a 1-drop creature but had a Goyf. Then I could see running out the Thoughtseize t1. However, Ponder or leaving up Brainstorm/Snare/Pierce might still be a stronger play.

Where Canadian Thresh turns its removal into burn during the mid-game, Dark Thresh makes up for its lack of reach with more effective mid/late-game removal and by stripping their stabilization spells with Thoughtseize.

Stifle doesn't seem as strong here as in RUG and I would be inclined to maximize Daze/FoW/Pierce/Thoughtseize instead.

[rchinnock]

Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

rchinnock - I appreciate what yourself and others are trying to do with this deck. Theoretically, Team American or BUG Tempo or BUG Delver (whatever you want to call it) should be beating ass in the current meta. It has discard and counterspells and a quick clock vs. combo, it has the same plus creature sacrificing effects vs. Sneak and Show and reanimator, it has targeted and mass removal vs. Maverick (Perish, Darkblast, Ghastly Demise, Dread of Night, Engineered Plague on Humans, etc.), and it has enough threats that it should be albe to find more threats than Control has answers (Delver and Mongoose, specifically.

However, the results don't really show that and I think that's what's got everyone a little stumped.

Regarding your quote...

Quote Originally Posted by rchinnock View Post
Even if they do have creatures out (and you should often be able to keep their board clear with counters, removal, and discard), he's only a chumper if they're holding their own creatures back. But if they ARE holding their creatures back, that means they're not attacking, and you're drawing extra cards every turn (hopefully burying them in card advantage). If they aren't keeping creatures back, then he attacks just fine like other critters, even if he is small.
This assumes all creatures are held back or all attack. Against a deck like Goblins, Maverick, even RUG, they could easily swing with 1-2 creatures and leave 1 back to chump Dark Confidant.

Also, I question playing Force of Will with Dark Confidant (at least we're not playing Tombstalker). While I think FOW is necessary in this meta, a few bad flips with DC can literally be suicide. Brainstorm and Ponder help to even this out. Also, chances are not high that we will flip FOW with DC, but it is still a consideration.

Sensei's Divining Top? It goes against the Tempo package, but RUG was running it for a while. Counterbalance would be interesting out of the board (with SDT, of course). It would certainly help shore-up the Burn MU and help guarantee Dark Confidant flips <=1.

That's true about the attacking/blocking thing, but most decks don't have a ton of creatures, and even if they hold one back, that's less damage than you would be taking. You also have removal so you might be able to pick that blocker or their one attacking creature off, getting a tempo advantage on them. Also, the FOW/Dark confidant thing has never been a problem for me. Even without 8 cantrips it wasn't - with just brainstorm it was usually fine. THe most that you usually hit is one FOW, if you hit any, and you can usually live through it just fine, unless your opponent plays a lot of burn (like UR delver deck or something, which is obviously a terrible MU for us).

Regarding Sensei's Divining Top - I think playing one or two could actually be cool, depending on how aggro yo uwant to be. It sets delver up and is good with Dark Confidant too. And it would definitely help with the RUG matchup. THen again, so would Sylvan Library - maybe we could play one of each. THose could also be sideboard cards for the RUG matchup, since they help you fight through their land destruction and to play the control deck. Another good sideboard card for the RUG matchup would be life from the loam, and crucible of worlds, too, I think.

And YEAH! COunterbalance is a cool idea. Maybe even maindeck - a BUG counterbalance deck? Or maybe not... It could be neat though.

[Water_Wizard]

Caleb Durward built a BUG counterbalance deck, but it was more an off-shoot of Nic Fit. Probably not appropriate for this thread, as it was more mid-range than tempo. I'll post the link when I find it.

EDIT:

Here is a link to the article: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-the-logic-behind-jank-countertop/

This deck is a BUG Control / Nic Fit hybrid, so it's not appropriate for discussion in this thread, but it shows how Countertop can be added into a BUG shell.

I think there was also a deck tech covering this deck on one of the SCG tournament write-ups, but I couldn't find it, but I also didn't look too hard. If someone finds it, PM me and I'll add it here. Thanks!

[rchinnock]

Yeah ... And honestly I never really liked Countertop decks, because they always feel a little inconsistent to me. I hate drawing counterbalance when I don't have a top, even though I know you can pitch it to FOW, etc. It could be at least a good sideboard card though, and if the meta is favorable enough for Countertop maybe even in the maindeck. At least a top and/or a sylvan library could be good though to help with Bob and to make us more consistent.

ANother idea for this deck, while completely ridiculous (this is more of a pet deck idea, not a serious sugestion), is to go all out with thought scour in conjunction with Tombstalker, Delver, and Goyf. THought scour, incidentally, is absurd in combination with TOmbstalker, since its a cantriping dark ritual that can be saved up and doesn't have to be cast on the same turn, and is an instant. SOmething like this would be very fast and disruptive against combo:

4 delver of secrets
4 tarmogoyf
4 tombstalker
4 force of will
3 daze
3 spell pierce
4 dismember
2 thoughtseize
2 inquisition of kozilek
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 thought scour
3 wasteland
4 underground sea
2 bayou
1 tropical island
4 polluted delta
4 misty rainforest
1 verdant catacombs

You could have some pretty stupidly explosive draws with all those thought scours, counterspells, hand disruption, tombstalkers, goyfs, and delvers :)

P.S. THis is a slightly serious suggestion - thought scour really is very good with TOmbstalker and it may be good enough to consider warping the deck around this synergy.

[Water_Wizard]

The more I play with Thought Scour, the more I like it. I've been playing with it in a RUG shell to support Nimble Mongoose.

In addition to growing/delving creatures Thought Scour has nice synergy with:

Brainstorm/Ponder
Delver (don't like what Delver flips, then thought scour it)
Miracles (opposing player taps their Top or Brainstorms on your turn (when you think they have a Miracle on top), you Thought Scour them in response)
Enlightened Tutor or any other card that puts a card on top of their library. Thought Scour would also be deadly vs. Doomsday.
They Brainstorm in response to your discard, it allows you to mill what they hide on top


All pretty common uses of Thought Scour, besides the primary purpose of building the graveyard.

Do you think Tombstalker is a 4 of? Do you think Dismember is a 4 of? Personally, I like Darkblast as a 1-of and it works well with Thought Scour.

I might run -1 Tarmogoyf, -1 Tombstalker, +1 Daze/Spell Pierce, +1 Darkblast

Ghastly Demise is no good with the Tombstalker plan. Snuff Out is about the same as Dismember. I would make sure the sideboard has enough Flusterstorms/Duress so that the creature removal can be fully boarded out against Combo.

[rchinnock]

Yeah I agree with most of what you said, Water_Wizard.

The reason for 4 tombstalkers is to try to capitalize on the thought scour / tombstalker synergy. You could cut one though. However, I absolutely would not cut a goyf. You would like to run 4 spell pierces, and darkblast can be good too. The 4 dismembers is just because while ghastly demise is the best black removal in this deck, it does't mix with tombstalker. Dismember is painful but its also efficient and good, and you can pay more mana for it as the game goes. However, 3 dismember might be better, if you can think of an actually decent removal spell other than darkblast to take its place. IMO darkblast is too inconsistent but it is a good 5th removal spell. Disfigure might also be good - it is more versatile than darkblast even if it is less crazy. Maybe 3 dismember 1 disfigure? Maybe 2/2, 3/2, or 2/3? That's the main problem with Tombstalker - cutting us off from our best removal spell.

You could do something like this if you play tombstalker:

4 delver of secrets
4 tarmogoyf
3 tombstalker
3-4 force of will
3 daze
3-4 spell pierce
3 dismember
1 disfigure
2 thoughtseize
3 inquisition of kozilek
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
2 thought scour

4 wasteland
4 underground sea
2 bayou
1 tropical island
4 polluted delta
4 misty rainforest
1 verdant catacombs


Or something like this if you don't play tombstalker:

4 delver of secrets
3 nimble mongoose
4 tarmogoyf
4 dark confidant
3 force of will
3 daze
3 spell pierce
2 inquisition of kozilek
2 thoughtseize
3 ghastly demise
1 dismember
4 brainstorm
4 ponder

4 wasteland
4 underground sea
2 tropical island
1 bayou
4 misty rainforest
4 polluted delta
1 verdant catacombs

Overall, I think the second list might end up just being better.

If you don't want to play dark confidant either, you could do something like this:

4 delver of secrets
4 nimble mongoose
4 tarmogoyf
3-4 force of will
3 daze
3-4 spell pierce
2 inquisition of kozilek
2 thoughtseize
3 ghastly demise
1 dismember
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
2 thought scour

4 wasteland
4 underground sea
2 tropical island
1 bayou
4 misty rainforest
4 polluted delta
1 verdant catacombs

I'm not sure which of these lists is the best, but they do present 3 distinct directions the deck could take.

[Sturtzilla]

Do you think Tombstalker is a 4 of?

I think it is a 3-of personally. I wouldn't really want to draw two or more unless the game goes nice a long. As for the removal, I think that is a bit meta-dependent. I like Snuff Out personally. But then again there are arguments for Dismember. I would say it comes down to what you think plays better in you meta.

[Water_Wizard]

If you don't want to play dark confidant either, you could do something like this:

4 delver of secrets
4 nimble mongoose
4 tarmogoyf
3-4 force of will
3 daze
3-4 spell pierce
2 inquisition of kozilek
2 thoughtseize
3 ghastly demise
1 dismember
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
2 thought scour

4 wasteland
4 underground sea
2 tropical island
1 bayou
4 misty rainforest
4 polluted delta
1 verdant catacombs

I like the 3rd list the best and I'm wondering if Spell Pierce should be Stifle. Personally, I really like Stifle and it fits well in the Daze/Wasteland plan. I'm going to post a Grixis list Caleb Durward wrote about on June 19th (that's the 2nd Durward list I've posted in this thread today!).

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-captains-log/

I don't agree with all the choices Caleb made. His two last-second additions of Creeping Tar Pit and Sower of Temptation don't seem to fit the deck and Sower's 4 cc mana cost seems high in a deck with only 19 lands (4 of which are Wastelands). Caleb's a successful tournament player, so what do I know?

I posted the list because I like Caleb's spell suite. Swap out 4 Lightning Bolts, 1 Forked Bolt, 1 Sower, and the EE for Geese and Goyf (and I know the plural of Mongoose is not Mongeese, it's Mongooses) and you've got a pretty solid BUG Tempo list. The list also needs some removal, swapping out some of the creature spots (Clique/Tombstalker/Goose) gets that done.

Diabolic Edict as a Dismember alternative? Edict is also good vs. Sneak and Show and Renaimator.

I wonder if Unearth has a spot in the 4 Thought Scour version? I was trying to think of Flashback or Dredge cards which would be good with Thought Scour. Unearth saw some play in the early BUG Snapcaster Mage lists. At worst, Unearth is a 2 cc cycler. However, it doesn't do you very much good if it's blind Thought Scoured.

Life from the Loam was the only dredger that came to mind (that and Darkblast, but it's already been disapproved). LftL is good in certain match-ups, but generally, it goes against Tempo. Maybe as a 1-of in the sideboard.


I think it (Tombstalker) is a 3-of personally. I wouldn't really want to draw two or more unless the game goes nice a long. As for the removal, I think that is a bit meta-dependent. I like Snuff Out personally. But then again there are arguments for Dismember. I would say it comes down to what you think plays better in you meta.

I agree with Tombstalker as a 3-of. I like the raw power of Snuff Out, but I prefer Dismember in long games because of it's ability to cost 0 or 2 life. Snuff Out can also cost 0 life, but at 4 cc. Is the non-black of Snuff Out ever an issue in today's meta? It can't hit an opposing Tombstalker. It has minor implications against Dredge and Nic Fit. It can't hit or slow down a Griselbrand. Conclusion: the only way I see the non-black aspect of Snuff Out mattering is in trying to shrink/chump a Griselbrand.

Speaking of Snuff Out, I used to love me some of the Team America from Jan '11 that ran 4 Snuff Out, 4 Thoughtseize, and 10 Fetches with Hymn and Stifle. Sure, your deck could do you 38 damage (including FOW), but that deck dismantled people :wink:

[rchinnock]

Stifle is good, but it doesn't realy mix as well having both discard and all 8 one-drops. You either want to play a turn one delver or mongoose, or you want to thoughtseize them. Again, as some people in this thread have noted, stifle works well in RUG because there it basically takes the place of BUG's targetted discard. Black's more tap-out nature, however, makes it less suited for BUG when you play delver and mongoose.

Regarding Caleb's list - I think its basically solid but ya it has some odd card choices that seem sub-optimal to me. Not only Sower but also V-Clique. He runs only 19 lands whereas many TA lists run 20 and still wouldn't want many 3 drops, nevermind 4 drops. I'd like to play either Liliana of the Veil or Maelstrom pulse, but the 3 cmc is keeping me away from them. Creeping tar pit also seems awkward and slow. If I was going to run tar pit I would put it in as a 21st land, not a 19th. It shouldn't hurt you if its just an extra land, but if its one of your crucial few, it seems too awkward and risky. Also, EE seems bad in this deck. Anyone worried about the tempo loss from Sylvan Library, Life from the Loam, etc. might want to think twice about playing EE since it is slow just like they are, and may even end up killing our own creatures. In the RUG mirror its probably especially awkward, since its both slow and can be stifled. Finally, Grixis is cool but why sacrifice Goyf? Its one of the best creatures in the deck, and so is mongoose. YOu'd need a good replacement creature, since tombstalker and delver aren't enough, and V-Clique is often going to be too expensive and slow. You'll likely never cast your V-CLique's if one of your lands gets wasted, especially if your opponent plays daze. If you want to play burn in a tempo deck play RUG, if you want to play discard play Goyf. THere aren't enough options as far as good tempo creatures go to not play green, in my opinion.

And I see why people want to run snuff out, since its awesome, but I don't realy think its the best option in the current meta, with RUG being so big especially. It seems to me that if you aren't running tombstalker, and especially if you are running thought scour, that ghastly demise is the best removal spell you can run. Dismember is good, too, if you fear black decks but really who plays black creatures nowadays? even we don't. I've got my removal suite as 3 ghastly demise 1 dismember and maybe a diabolic edict, darkblast or a disfigure. Snuff out is really efficient, I guess the most efficient removal spell in existence, since its 0 mana to kill almost anything. It is realy painful however and against some decks, like RUG, I've found the 4 life to be a big problem, especially when ghastly demise is only 1 mana (which is a lot more than 0 but still obviously cheap) and kills basically anything unless for some reason someone exiles your graveyard. Diabolic edict and dismember are also really good. Having an out to EMrakul, as you've pointed out Water_Wizard, seems good. It also kills Mother of Runes if they ahve no other creatures, for what that's worth. If we ARE running tombstalker, however, I think probably dismember, diabolic edict, and disgure are the 3 best? IDK. What do people think about all this?

[Tombstalker]

Calebs list- pretty crazy blend, seems tuned against SnS with canadian and U/W miracle control in mind too. Myself and others have tested grixis TA and the main problem is the lack of efficient replacements for goyf although having an entire flying threat suite is nice and his choice are good from the perspective of alternatives in those colors.
The upsides to red are good too, namely the best SB options between R/B and immunity to submerge for tombstalker is amazing, while burn + stalker is a 3 turn clock that canadian cant stop. Id also like to point out that EE wont hurt much in this deck since flipped delvers are cc0 so if it does kill delver it was likely to correct losing board position against zombie or entreat tokens. Not sure I like tarpit either but obviously its there to kill jace miracle controls main wincon.

On more traditional TA removal suite- The difference between dismember and snuff out is kotr and thalia. Edicts have always disappointed me main but they are good from the board. I prefer the most utility removal main (snuff + stalkers OR demise - stalkers) and leave the more conditional stuff to the SB (massacre, perish, edicts etc).

[rchinnock]

Tombstalker - would you choose snuff out over dismember? Do you not think the almost mandatory life loss of snuff out is too much? And what about disfigure? It kills most Maverick's dudes, and can also kill delvers. It seems potentially viable to me as another removal spell so we don't have to lose like 2354234 life. Yeah it would really be nice to have lightning bolt, swords, or path ...

And regarding EE those are good points but still its pretty expensive, and if you have a flipped delver you lose yours if you kill theirs, or if you have an unflipped one you lose it if you try to kill their unflipped one or a mongoose - eh... I guess if you are really scared of mongeese but it seems like it could be too awkward. An easier solution to killing Mongoose, which also kills EMrakul, and in the end costs the same as EE, is Liliana. SHe's a sack effect that's also a discard effect. Besides 3cmc she seems excellent for this deck, since we also empty are hands quickly, and she can even make goyf bigger. Overall I think that if you want a way to kill non-targettable guys, she's the best maindeck solution, next to (maybe) diabolic edict from the board. She might be good even if we didn't need sac effects specifically from her. But maybe she's not that great, I'm not sure.

You could run a list like the following:

4 delver of secrets
4 tarmogoyf
3 tombstalker
4 force of will
3 daze
3 spell pierce
3 dismember
1 disfigure
2 liliana of the veil
2 inquisition of kozilek
2 thoughtseize
4 brainstorm
4 ponder

4 wasteland
4 underground sea
2 bayou
1 tropical island
4 polluted delta
4 misty rainforest
1 verdant catacombs

[Water_Wizard]

First of all, I just want to thank everyone for the good posts in this thread. The posts are civil, informative, and organized. The conversation stays on-topic and posts add to the conversation without being negative or containing personal attacks. Bravo!

@ rchinnock - 2 posts ago, you mention discard plus 8 one-drops. I assume you are talking about 4 Delver / 4 Goose. In a build with Stifle, I would cut Goose. I prefer Tombstalker, and as previously discussed, Goose + Stalker = Nonbo.

still @ rchinnock - 1 post ago, I think Disfigure has to be a Darkblast. Darkblast kills an unflipped Delver, let's you win the Tarmogoyf war, and targets Dryad Arbor, Noble Heirarch, Thalia, and Mother of Runes, not to mention its implications vs. Elves, Vendilion Clique or Snapcaster Mage. As previously discussed, Darkblast can be a -2/-2 if you use it on your upkeep, and I guess even a -3/-3 if you use it with Brainstorm or Ponder, but that is in rare cases.

EE is mainly to kill Mongoose in Caleb's list. As Tombstalker (the poster, not the card) notes, EE also has implications vs. tokens and can kill Counterbalance.

Right now, I'm facing a lot of Reanimator and Sneak and Show. That is why I run Diabolic Edict main. I agree with Tombstalker, usually it is not ideal, but when 50% of your match-ups are 'sneak a fatty into play' Edict is main deck material. I also decided to go Grixis over BUG due to the sideboard options - REB and PB (also noted by Tombstalker) and the fact Bolts can go to the face, while Dismember/Darkblast are wasted vs. Griselbrand and Emrakul. This is a meta decision. If I faced green creatures, I would definitely run 3 Dismember with Darkblast and Perish in the sb. I'm still not sold on Snuff Out, although I'm considering it.

rchinnock, agreed, 3 CC for Clique and Liliana is high, but against decks w/o Wasteland (Sneak and Show, Reanimator, and most UW), it's not too hard to hit 3 mana and both are house. Currently, I'm only running Clique. Liliana plus Counter magic = nonbo. Liliana also plays into Reanimator's plan, so that's kind of a nonbo, too. I like Liliana, but I think Life from the Loam is needed to make her shine, so that puts us in more of a BUG mid-range/control build.

[dionykos]

About Tarpit: it also doesn't die to Terminus on their turn. That + protection from Jace makes it an excellent choice for the Miracle MU.

I agree with Tombstalker-man, the main issue with Grixis is the lack of a solid creature for the crea slots 8-12. Clique and Delver both die to bolts and forked bolt, and aren't good blockers. Goyf is solid.
Also, I found the potential need for R on turn 1 in Grixis (to bolt a creature) slightly problematic since we can't fetch an underground sea t1. It messes up with our mana base a little bit, unlike TA, and unlike RUG (who will happily fetch volcanic island t1).
Having said that, if we find a solid substitute for Goyf in UBR, I would probably switch to Grixis, because of the cards Submerge, Perish and Pyroblast.

About the removals: as I said a few pages ago, I like Disfigure in this meta, and dominants RUG/SnS/Esper/Maverick. Yes, it doesn't hit KoR, but usually we can counter/discard it or race it. There is one bigger problem I think, it's Scavenging ooze, but again it's a bit slow if we already have a flying threat. I also run 1 or 2 Darkblasts because it accelerates into Tombstalkers.

[Water_Wizard]

You run Disfigure with Darkblast? What's your removal package?

Just throwing this out there, but is it possible to run GRUB?

I don't think it's right to run Goyf/Goose with Tombstalker, but Tombstalker helps to diversify against Relic/Ooze/cards that shrink graveyards (assuming Tombstalker is delved before the gy disappears.)

Hypothetically, GRUB would run Gofy/Goose (I think we want to stay away from Tombstalker due to the BB). A sample list would look like this:

4 Delver
4 Goose
4 Goyf

3 Spell Pierce
3 IoK
4 FOW
3 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Wasteland
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn

This proposed deck:
1) Has some 1-drop issues (Stifle/IOK/NMG/DoS all compete for that slot - it is probably proper to cut 1 or more)
2) Mana base is shaky - I went up to 8 duals / 7 fetch to attempt to compensate for this. Some RUG lists are now running 8 duals / 6 fetch (18 lands), so this may be alright.
3) The real beauty of this deck is it's sideboard plan.

RED: REB/PB, Ancient Grudge, Sulfur Elemental
BLACK: Thoughtseize/Duress, Darkblast, Diabolic Edict, targeted removal
BLUE: BEB, Submerge, Mind Harness, Flusterstorm, 1 Spell Pierce
GREEN: flashback Ancient Grudge, nah, just kidding. Life from the Loam is necessary because of opponent's Wastelands. Green is a weak sideboard color for this deck. I guess KGrip is good vs. Counterbalance if UW Miracles continues to grow.

Terminate - does anyone play this card anymore?
Perish seems like a nonbo, but it may be worth it.

Sample sideboard:
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Darkblast
2 Pyroblast
1 Life from the Loam
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Submerge
2 Duress

This deck would be most powerful vs. combo and control and suffer against decks with Wasteland/big creatures.

[dionykos]

I have been happy with 2 Snuff Out + 2 Disfigure + 2 Darkblast (with 4 Tombstalker), but I'd like to remove Snuff Out completely to be able to play 4 Thoughseize. So I may increase the number of Disfigure, or maybe use Go For the Throat (although I hate removals with cc2 in Tempo).

Goyf and Tombstalker work just fine together. When you delve, just keep the one card type your opp doesn't have in his graveyard, and your Goyf is still 4/5. It's not like Mongoose or Grim Lavamancer, really.

Also, I'm not sure playing 4 colors in Tempo is a good idea. Especially when RUG and Maverick are both playing 4 Wasteland, it will be too easy for them to screw with your colors.

[Water_Wizard]

Also, I'm not sure playing 4 colors in Tempo is a good idea. Especially when RUG and Maverick are both playing 4 Wasteland, it will be too easy for them to screw with your colors.

Totally agree. GRUB would not do well vs. decks with a playset of Wastelands. GRUB would shine vs. Combo decks and Control.

[noobslayer]

The archtype sucks as UG. Adding a third color destabilizes the mana base, but is necessary to provide better removal options and utility. I don't think 4-colors is the way to go with this archtype. It requires so much commitment on board, and banking on not getting blown out that I just never thought it was worth it. It's really only good in a metagame with tons of combo and decks not looking to prey on your mana base and give you some time to develop. I was thinking about something like this:

4 nimble mongoose
4 tarmogoyf
3 dark confidant
1 vendilion clique
(12)

4 ghastly demise
1 darkblast
1 dismember
(6)

1 engineered explosives
(1)

3 inquisition of kozilek
2 thoughtseize
(5)

4 brainstorm
3 ponder
(7)

3 force of will
4 daze
3 spell pierce
(10)

3 wasteland
4 polluted delta
2 misty rainforest
2 verdant catacombs
4 undergound sea
3 tropical island
1 bayou
(19)

Clique could probably come out for another removal spell. I opted to not go the snapcaster route, as that tends to be better for decks that have an amazing sideboard transition to a control hybrid. So instead I jammed "Underloved Bob" as a 3-of. Concept was use efficiently curved guys (not a fan of delver), and a bunch of redundant spells so I can just power on the gas turn after turn with an active Bob.

Although for a large event I would rather brew a Snapcaster list anyways.

[rchinnock]

Water_Wizard, first of all, I'm not running stifle so that's why I have the 8 one-drops. Although maybe stifle is worth running. It doesn't seem to really clash with mongosoe, however, so much as it does with discard.

Regarding mongoose vs. tombstalker, here are my arguments for mongoose (which I'm not necesarily taking sides with, just putting them out there to present a clear picture of the options - I'll say what I like about tombstalker too):

(1) he's less demanding for your mana base (you can run 18 lands including 4 wastelands just like RUG if you run mongoose/delver/goyf for your creature base).

(2) you are less vulnerable to wasteland and stifle which can sometimes keep you off of double black (happened to me a lot from the little bit I played against RUG).

(3) since mongoose costs less mana its easier to keep counter mana up for spell pierce, which seems very important in some matchups.

(4) ghastly demise seems too good not to play. Its often a sword to plowshares that they don't gain any life from, or a path they don't get a land from: seems better than losing 4 life.

It seems like the main argument for tombstalker is that he's better against RUG, IF you can land him, which seems like it will often be difficult. Being much harder to kill with burn is obviously awesome, and often when I resolved one against RUG it was game over. Also, he seems better against Maverick. I'm not entirely sure these benefits outweigh the up-sides of the mongoose/ghastly demise plan, but they should be taken into consideration. My main problems with tombstalker are: (1) while he seems strictly better against Maverick than mongoose, you won't always want to lose life in a race with them. (2) against RUG, he is better if you land him than mongoose is, but landing him is difficult. In addition, you have to run life-losing removal which is very bad against RUG, so in addition to maybe not being able to resolve tombstalker through wasteland/stifle/daze, you might still lose because you could end up losing a lot of life to your removal and then getting burned out. Again, I do still acknowledge that he's awesome if he resolves, and this should happen a decent amount of the time. So even the matchups where tombstalker is better, that advantage over mongoose will often be balanced out by the fact that your removal will hurt you in those matchups. And then you have some matchups where mongoose seems strictly better, when you don't want to tap out, like against combo. However, its also true that tombstalker will sometimes race combo faster, if you get it down quickly enough, so IDK: I like both. I guess the biggest hangup for me is ghastly demise. It seems like when tombstalker used to be big it wasn't as big of a deal to run snuff out, but with RUG around snuff out and dismember seem like they might be too risky to run in multiples.

Is there anything important I'm leaving out of the comparison?

[Water_Wizard]

No, I think you pretty much got it all in your analysis. Good, thorough analysis.

Nimble Mongoose is better in BUG.

Tombstalker is better in Grixis.

Depending on what decks you expect to face, you determine if RUG, BUG, or Grixis is the right deck for you. They are all Tempo decks. All focus around 1/2 drops with plenty of cantrips and cheap spells and are designed to win in the mid-game (around turns 5-8).

The only fact I would add about Mongoose is that he is very good against UW. If UW Miracles continues to grow (as I expect it will), Mongoose is a real pain for them to handle.

I don't think any Tempo deck, RUG, BUG, or Grixis, is good against Maverick. However, all of those decks have significant sideboard options to help out - Perish, Sulfur Elemental, Submerge, and Mind Harness, being the most common options-of-choice.

[DragoFireheart]

Couple questions:

- Are there any viable lists that run UB as colors?

- Why aren't there more Grixis lists? Discard + counters + reach (ala burn) seems like the perfect setup to completely destroy combo and control decks. Having burn would also solve the issue of life-loss from black-based removal.

- Is it remotely possible to run a Tempo deck without Wasteland?

[ThomasDowd]

Couple questions:

- Are there any viable lists that run UB as colors?

- Why aren't there more Grixis lists? Discard + counters + reach (ala burn) seems like the perfect setup to completely destroy combo and control decks. Having burn would also solve the issue of life-loss from black-based removal.

- Is it remotely possible to run a Tempo deck without Wasteland?

I've been playing with this recently but don't know where to put it in terms of threads, it is kind of like the Russian list, but kind of like the BUG lists, and I'm slowly morphing it more towards a next level thresh style(with jace and C spell). The sideboard needs work and some numbers in the main deck can be moved around, started with Levin's list from a few weeks ago but hymn hasn't been relevant in about a year.

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tombstalker
4 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Go for the Throat
4 Ponder
2 Snuff Out
3 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
3 Thoughtseize

2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
3 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
6 ?
3 Extirpate
1 Go for the Throat
2 Massacre
2 Perish
1 Thoughtseize

Changes I am back and forth on, cutting daze's and focusing strictly on getting to the mid game and adding pairs of jace and counterspell, moving the third thoughtseize to the board for more pierce main, and adding the 21st land (tarpit would probably be really greedy but sweet).

Don't know how I feel about stifle: lands(fetch+waste), stoneforge mystic, maybe demon(?), are the only targets I think of that happen that are super relevant, other wise I feel like I am discarding a card.

The extirpates were leylines(4) but extirpate is probably just better.

Miserable matchups include:
Tribal decks: Merfolk is really tough, I can't imagine goblins being much better. elves you get perish out of the board so there's that.
Maybe maverick, have not really played against it too much but with 4 wrath of gods post board it probably gets better.
Burn: you may want some BEB, also ok versus RUG at protecting dudes.

I don't like the burn, I'd rather have solid removal that kills guys straight up and a rock solid mana base. But I can see why people want it.

[Sturtzilla]

Miserable matchups include:
Tribal decks: Merfolk is really tough, I can't imagine goblins being much better. elves you get perish out of the board so there's that.
Maybe maverick, have not really played against it too much but with 4 wrath of gods post board it probably gets better.
Burn: you may want some BEB, also ok versus RUG at protecting dudes.

Not to be rude... but, if you are miserable versus all of these decks, maybe you should consider playing something else. It seems that list would likely make up a solid swath of any meta.

There is a Grixis Delver thread! Check it out! http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22268-Team-Grixis-(UBr-tempo)

[ThomasDowd]

Not to be rude... but, if you are miserable versus all of these decks, maybe you should consider playing something else. It seems that list would likely make up a solid swath of any meta.

There is a Grixis Delver thread! Check it out! http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22268-Team-Grixis-(UBr-tempo)

Word I'll cross post this in that thread.

Maverick I don't have enough data on so it's hard to say. plus the few times i played against knight of the reliquary I forgot how big she got (I usually play combo so just ignore the size of it) so wasted my snuff outs on stupid things like hierarch. played bad, got punished.

Burn and fish are basically the two bad ones, and those don't show up that much anymore. also merfolk is beatable with the removal, sniping lords at opportune times.

And I don't think the burn match is that great for RUG either, since it is pretty much the same shell, it is just really tight.

But yeah working on it and seeing what to do with it.

[Sturtzilla]

And I don't think the burn match is that great for RUG either, since it is pretty much the same shell, it is just really tight.

I fundamentally disagree with this statement. Burn is a deck with one goal, to point 6-7 spells at your face. Decks with Delver and counters (really as long as it is a blue control/tempo shell, color specifics don't matter) make it really hard for them to effectively do this. A flipped Delver offers a similar clock to the one that they are posting (maybe a turn or so slower), with the caveat that you can counter key spells in their plan. Furthermore, if they want to stop the Delver, they detract from the damage they can deal to you to win. As they don't run cantrips or any form of card advantage they are left to the mercy of the top of their deck. You do have to watch out for Price of Progress, if you are playing a three color build. But then again, Wastelands are good here because you can potentially Waste yourself if you need to. It is all about knowing your role. In this matchup RUG (and probably most Delver decks) goes bigger or have better long game, so it is okay to take some damage early as your mid game should stall their board and/or soak up cards in their hand. As long as you play it smart, you should win.

[rchinnock]

ThomasDowd - I probably wouldn't play snuff out if you are concerned about decks with burn. Why not play dismember instead? Its still cheap - and it doesn't have to hurt you. Also, you probably want at least a 4th removal spell - 3 doesn't seem like quite enough. Maybe disfigure? I think in a deck like yours, as in traditional TA, 1 mana removal is a lot better. If you want to be a real badass :) you can pllay gatekeeper of malakir like the BW Stoneblade lists were about a year ago. You can probably consitsently play 3 black if you build your mana base right - and he is an extra critter, so you wouldn't have to do potentially awkward things like maxing out on 4 V-cliques. Also, Gatekeeper will kill a show and tell'd Emrakul, a nimble mongoose, and even a mother of runes. seems pretty relevant in this meta, and the awkwardness of the sacrifice-effect-removal, against decks where its not optimal, should be made up for by the fact that he also gives you a creature. I sort o wanted to run Gatekeeper in Team America, but it felt too awkward. What about something like 2 dismember/snuff out, 2 disfigure, or maybe 3/1, along with a some number of gatekeepers?

Also, if you can fit them, a couple thought scours can work really well with tombstalker. Some number of thought scours may make it feasible to run 4 tombstalkers without it being awkward, which could be nice since you don't have goyf.

[Tombstalker]

DragoFireart- as posted above the main drawback of grixis if the creature suite. UB tempo is doable with a more stable mana base and stiflenought package but it gets hasted bad games 2-3. Lastly no Lastly tempo is not possible without wasteland. In fact legacy is not possible without wasteland Lol.
That was semi serious but you really need a very good reason not to play wasteland in this format, i.e. you win by combo or must hit colored land drops at higher curves than 3.

Regarding goose- I wonder if the value of goose will decrease with the rise of terminus in control? Also regarding grixis I have considered reanimate in place of some number of goyfs in the psst but never tested it much. Thoughts on this?

[Water_Wizard]

Regarding goose- I wonder if the value of goose will decrease with the rise of terminus in control? Also regarding grixis I have considered reanimate in place of some number of goyfs in the psst but never tested it much. Thoughts on this?

@ Goose - I think the opposite is true - the value of Terminus decreases (against the RUG M/U) with a decrease of Goose in RUG. If RUG didn't run Goose, UW would just run more targeted removal + SCM. Terminus has applications in other M/Us, but shroud and swarm creatures are what gives Terminus its value.

@ Reanimate - the idea being, you would reanimate your opponent's creatures or your fallen Delvers? For hitting your own stuff, I think Unearth might be better (although Unearth rules out Tombstalker - you could still build with Delver, SCM, and Clique). For hitting your opponent's creatures, I could see Reanimate being really good or really bad. Obviously, against a Reanimator deck, Reanimate could just flat shine and catch them by surprise. Versus other creature decks, it relies on a creature actually hitting their graveyard (so you either have to counter or kill it) and against certain decks (Storm, Enchantress, creature-less combo, etc.) Reanimate would be totally dead. At lease Unearth you can cycle and play some cool SCM tricks. I'm not sold on Reanimate main deck, but maybe as an experimental sideboard card? I'm not completely certain how you plan to use it...

[rchinnock]

I've been thinking about something like the following list as a mix between the more aggro version of TA, and the more controlling version. It still can put on a clock, with V-Clique and Goyf, and some help from snapcaster. But it has a more robust counter suite, and more late game. Its not really a control deck proper, in my opinion, since it doesn't play pernicious deed, innocent blood, or many of the other things that the BUG control lists play. But it is not a tempo deck either. I guess its more aggro-control proper, like a more aggressive version of the UW stoneblade lists. Its removal suite could change a bit - I'm not sure how though, since I haven't played the deck yet.


4 tarmogoyf
4 snapcaster mage
3 vendillion clique
4 force of will
4 spell pierce
2 counterspell
3 ghastly demise
1 dismember
2 thoughtseize
1 inquisition of kozilek
4 brainstorm
2 sensei's divining top
1 sylvan library
1 life from the loam
2 jace, the mindsculptor

4 wasteland
3 underground sea
2 tropical island
1 bayou
1 island
1 swamp
4 polluted delta
4 misty rainforest
1 verdant catacombs

What do people think of this list?

[Water_Wizard]

Did I count wrong or is that list 59 cards?

If so, I would add Creeping Tar Pit as the 60th card.

I think Tops could/should be Ponders. Other than that, looks good.

Your list is probably bordering on BUG Control (I guess it's right in the middle), it depends on what you want to do with the sideboard.

Also, 3 SCM and 2 VC? Maybe adding an IoK and a Jace? Seems like 4 SCM could clog your hand and 2 VC is probably enough.

[dionykos]

DragoFireart- as posted above the main drawback of grixis if the creature suite. UB tempo is doable with a more stable mana base and stiflenought package but it gets hasted bad games 2-3. Lastly no Lastly tempo is not possible without wasteland. In fact legacy is not possible without wasteland Lol.
That was semi serious but you really need a very good reason not to play wasteland in this format, i.e. you win by combo or must hit colored land drops at higher curves than 3.

Regarding goose- I wonder if the value of goose will decrease with the rise of terminus in control? Also regarding grixis I have considered reanimate in place of some number of goyfs in the psst but never tested it much. Thoughts on this?

Seems like we're all in the same situation, trying desperately to fit B and R in the same Tempo deck. Reanimate in Grixis can be ok, but it's just an empty sleeve in quite a lot of MU. The "best" beaters I found so far to complete the Grixis creature package are Clique and (don't laugh) Coralhelm Commander, which is quite awful because it requires a lot of mana ressources. And I dislike them both: Clique is fragile and comes too late (turn 3 at best, which prevents you from wastelanding sometimes, etc), and Commander comes in earlier but is way too risky with all the bolts around (play it, pump it next turn and attack: bolt -> nice you've just spent 2 turns doing nothing). Also, Goyf is too good, it's cheap, big, attack and block properly. That's why I'm still playing Team America and not Grixis.

The way I see it for Grixis, we can either try to fit a "combo" in it (like Dreadnought, Dark depths, etc - not sure it works) or replace Goyf by a non-creature threat (no idea - Bitterblossom is cute but damn slow for a Tempo deck). Or we wait until they print another decent beater in UBR.

[rchinnock]

Water_Wizard - Yes! I tested and I realized that the tops should be ponders too - to feed ghastly demise. And I realized that, in the same way that the esper stoneblade lists don't run wastelands, neither do we necessarily want to. If you do you can't run counterspell as easily, and you have to run more lands. So I've decided to test without wasteland for now. I think this makes sense: this deck is really very similar to esper stoneblade, and for similar reasons, I think wasteland, while awesome, may (may) be more awkward than its worth for the slightly indulgent mana base. I also only wanted to run 21 lands, so ... can't be too greedy. It may want a 4th Jace, in which case you'd probably have to add a land.

One thing that prompted this deck idea is a UW stoneblade list that did well in the most recent 5K on magic.tcgplayer.com, which played 4 FOW, 3 mana leaks, and 4 spell pierces, and 4 snapcasters. I thought: all those counters must be awesome against combo and the control mirror! So I think it would be cool to try, but with Goyf instead of stoneforge, since it can be better against RUG (they can't burn it out like they can SFM), and it can be more aggressive, which makes us a little more aggro than them. If you expect more aggro than combo and control you would probably want to swap the third counterspell out for either a maelstrom pulse, a liliana, a darkblast, an engineered explosives, or something of the like. Maelstrom pulse would be my choice, unless I was extra scared of mongooses.

The current list (with 60 cards) is:

4 tarmogoyf
4 snapcaster mage
3 vendillion clique
4 force of will
4 spell pierce
3 counterspell
3 ghastly demise
1 dismember
2 maelstrom pulse/thoughtseize
4 brainstorm
3 ponder
1 sylvan library
3 jace, the mindsculptor

4 underground sea
3 tropical island
1 bayou
3 island
1 swamp
4 polluted delta
4 misty rainforest
1 scalding tarn

[Tombstalker]

Ok back on my PC instead of my phone and I just wanted to clarify my earlier post. Im not currently searching for alternatives to goyf or green, just played around with the red splash a few months back and threw it out there for others who do seem to be searching for alternatives. I still feel green is best and my list has been great so Im not in any hurry to go changing much of anything in the main.

Regarding recent activity, many of the latest suggestions really dont fit into the tempo archtype but I guess they do still fall under aggro, most more in the realm of BUG control if anything though. Not that theres anything wrong with testing or suggesting alternatives but I gotta say things like gatekeeper have no place in this deck man.

[Sturtzilla]

The current list (with 60 cards) is:

4 tarmogoyf
4 snapcaster mage
3 vendillion clique
4 force of will
4 spell pierce
3 counterspell
3 ghastly demise
1 dismember
2 maelstrom pulse/thoughtseize
4 brainstorm
3 ponder
1 sylvan library
3 jace, the mindsculptor

4 underground sea
3 tropical island
1 bayou
3 island
1 swamp
4 polluted delta
4 misty rainforest
1 scalding tarn

I think this list looks pretty awesome. Although I think I would want to be a bit more aggro/tempo oriented. I guess that is just more my play style though. I might try running this list based off of what you have posted above.


4 delver of secrets
4 tarmogoyf
4 snapcaster mage
4 force of will
4 daze
3 spell pierce
2 counterspell
3 ghastly demise
1 dismember
2 maelstrom pulse
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
1 sylvan library
3 underground sea
3 tropical island
1 bayou
3 island
2 swamp
4 polluted delta
4 misty rainforest

[rchinnock]

Sturtzilla - These are my first thoughts on your list (take with a grain of salt):

One thing I wanted was to stay away from daze. I think that, against combo, V-Clique, another counterspell, and the ability to consistently reach 4 mana by turn 4 to snapcaster back the counterspells, may be even better than delver/daze. Delver is good, but V-Clique is both a clock and disruption, which makes me like him more, since you're not really an aggro deck, you're aggro control. In general, I think snapcaster+daze isn't really that great. Your list is a little faster than mine (you play delver, I play V-clique) and daze (which is good, but is "soft" disruption), and mine has a little more hard disruption (in the form of V-Clique, another counterspell, more reliably making it to snapcaster+counterspell mana). I like your list too, but the reason I wanted to make mine the way it is, and I think what should give it its power, is that it should be very consistent, have a lot of disruption, and have late game. The combination of these makes it, like I said, like a more aggresesive version of stoneblade. A list with delver and daze sacrifices consistency, late game, and at times disruption (since after a certain point daze stops doing anything) in order to be aggro. For this reason, if I was going to play delver at all, I think I'd play an actual tempo list, with either nimble mongoose or tombstalker.

Another concern is that, if you're going to go tempo at all, you absolutely must play wasteland. My version doesn't play wasteland, because its not a tempo deck - in the same way that Esper stoneblade doesn't. A list with daze, however, should play wasteland. Yet that's going to make it too hard to play counterspell, since you'll be losing lands, and often won't get double blue. So you'll have to either play mana leak and have it work only sometimes (when you have two lands out and neither are tapped) or you should go a more properly aggro-control route, play more lands, and, if you want to play counterspell instead of mana leak, not play wasteland. This could work, since mana leak is also good with wasteland, if you have lands untapped. You might end up being half-way between tempo and aggro-control proper, however, and I'm not sure that this is where you want to be. I tried this with an esper-delver-blade kind of thing a while ago, and it felt lackluster: delver felt too weak in a list that wanted to have late-game, yet the deck didn't feel quite fast enough to really be tempo or true aggro. Then again, maybe I just didn't find the right balance in that esper deck, and it also is the case that goyf is better for a deck like what you're trying to do than stoneforge is (I think - stoneforge can be a bit slow, and if they kill it you often can't cast the equipment quickly enough for a tempo/aggro deck).

-------------------------------

And Tombstalker - I was just suggesting gatekeeper in a UB deck, not in BUG. SOmeone posted a UB deck - and I think it could work there, since you can swing the mana, probably (BW stoneblade did, why not UB aggro-control?). They could use more good creature removal if they aren't playing ghastly demise, and its another critter (there are also a shortage of good creatures in straight UB). Gatekeeper can also be very good tempo, which goes with a UB tempo kind of theme. It would be excellent against RUG delver and Maverick (no one plays spell snare, its removal that gets around spell pierce, it dodges thalia, it blocks, kills mongooses, is card advantage, etc.) for what its worth. I know that it doesn't fit in TA proper (BUG) though, since the mana base can't support it and we have enough good creatures anyways.

[Sturtzilla]

@rchinnock

You do make valid points. I missed Wasteland... definitely needed in a tempo deck. Mana Leak vs. Counterspell for the appropriate build. Clique vs. Delver for the appropriate build as well. They both seem like they could each be pretty awesome.

[rchinnock]

@Sturtzilla - One thing, however, that I think is wrong with my list: for being a little bit on the controlling side of aggro control, it lacks gas. Sometimes you one-for-one them for a while, and then they get one too many creatures out and you can't handle it because all you draw is spell pierces. Either Dark Confidant or another Jace may be necessary to give the deck more late-game. Or the deck could play life from the loam, crucible of worlds, and wasteland. Some kind of engine to keep it going.

[wcm8]

Interesting list here:

Jesse Hatfield #13
Grand Prix Atlanta - Top 32

1 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Ponder
2 Portent
1 Sylvan Library
4 Temporal Mastery
3 Thoughtseize
1 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard
1 Darkblast
2 Deathmark
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sower of Temptation
2 Spell Pierce
1 Thoughtseize
2 Tormod's Crypt

I wonder how relevant Temporal Mastery was during the tournament, and whether Spell Pierce might have just been a better use of the slot. I like the old tech with Portent though.

edit: I got to test the list some on Cockatrice, and it seems pretty powerful. With all of the filter the deck runs, it's pretty consistent with triggering TM and I rarely seemed to get it stranded in hand. This might be the tempo deck that can actually make use of the card. I would maybe make some minor adjustments to the SB (-1 Nihil, +1 Grafdigger's, -1 Sower, +1 Gilded Drake, possibly a few other changes) but otherwise the list is great.

[Purgatory]

Played the Nimble Mongoose variant in a small sanctioned tournment (20-ish people) to a T8 spot with a 3-1-1 record, here's my list:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Thought Scour
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
3 Ghastly Demise
1 Dismember

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou

SB:
1 Spell Pierce
4 Submerge
2 Darkblast
1 Thoughtseize
1 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Life from the Loam
2 Krosan Grip
1 Pernicious Deed

The metagame was crazy, apparently the locals in that town were very fond of their Tops, because I counted no less than four (!) Counterbalance decks in total, of a few different spices, two Burn decks, two Nic Fit only one RUG and a number of random decks, MUD, Helm of Awakening Storm, Hive Mind etc.

I lost round 1 to UGr Countertop when he got the softlock in games two and three and I couldn't play any more spells. Had I found a removal for his lone Goyf in my Brainstorm -> Fetch -> Ponder -> shuffle series in the penultimate turn in game three I would've probably gotten there, with all of my spotremoval left in the deck, he is able to stabilize on one life and then Jace me out. Oh well.

I won round two easily against Burn and round three as well against MUD, not dropping a game in either. I won round four against UW Miracle Control 2-1 after three tight games and an especially close third game. Great Magic. ID into T8 and then I lost to D&T (Mono-W) in the quarters, piloted by one of the lads from our car. Thalia is a douche.

Overall I was happy with how the list performed. Not playing Snapcaster made me confident enough to drop to 19 lands, which was probably the right call. I could probably drop another one to 18, there were some land-heavy draws during the day. The list is sweet, I like how it plays alike to RUG but in a more pro-active way. In the meta, Nimble Mongoose was easily the right call, closing many games where both Tiago and Bob would've been sub-par at best and dead draws at worst. Not sure if the list is better than RUG, but for the day maybe it was. There were many slow control decks where I'd rather have the discard and the dedicated Tarmogoyf-killing instant than the reach from Bolts.

As a closing note, the sideboard was a mess, tossed together on the evening before the tournament. Submerge was awesome against the other green decks, aside from that I only boarded Spell Pierce #4 and Thoughtseize #3 all day.

[rchinnock]

I've been thinking of a sort of wacky list that doesn't play force of will, but instead relies on discard and V-Clique for its disruption. The logic that prompted the shift is that Force is a 1/2, hymn to taurach is a 2/1. While FOW is more powerful in many ways, the insane divergency in their card-advantage/card-disadvantage suggests that hymn may be worth trying out. Also, countermagic doesn't work with Liliana of the Veil, but I think that she could be really good in this deck. On the one hand, she couples as extra removal against creature heavy decks, and on the other as disruption against combo and control (that provides a certain amount of inevitability).

Ultimately, the list ends up playing like a BG rock deck (sort of like "Eva Green") but with 4 spell pierces, and 8 cantrips (to set up nimble mongoose and to make it more consistent). The cantrips were important because I think that nimble mongoose is the best answer to nimble mongoose - its a 1-mana answer that can't be easily answered itself, and its also a really good creature, instead of a bad removal spell (Engineered explosives, I'm looking at you). The deck also has answers to Nimble Mongoose and a Show-and-Tell'd Emrakul in Liliana, a thing that most TA lists don't have.The list is much less all-in than RUG or any BUG list approximating the play-style of RUG, enjoying getting to 3 lands, etc., and on the other hand more controlling than Eva Green was.

I'm not sure how good the deck will actually be, but I think it might hold promise. The loss of FOW may seem unfeasible, but I would present all aggro decks that don't play it as a counter-argument. The disruption suite in this deck is very similar to the BWx stoneblade lists (one of which just top 8'd in the Starcity in Seattle) and is more robust than Maverick's, both of which do fine without FOW. So maybe this is another promising way to make TA.

The list is:

4 nimble mongoose
4 tarmogoyf
3 vendillion clique
3 ghastly demise
1 dismember
4 spell pierce
2 thoughtseize
2 inquisition of kozilek
4 hymn to taurach
3 liliana of the veil
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
1 sylvan library
1 sensei's divining top

4 underground sea
2 bayou
2 tropical island
4 polluted delta
4 misty rainforest
2 verdant catacombs


Possible inclusions which are not in this list are Dark Confidant, Delver of Secrets, Jitte (if you run more creatures), Maelstrom Pulse, Darkblast, Jace, and a ton of other stuff obviously.

[Tammit67]

Interesting list here:

Jesse Hatfield #13
Grand Prix Atlanta - Top 32


edit: I got to test the list some on Cockatrice, and it seems pretty powerful. With all of the filter the deck runs, it's pretty consistent with triggering TM and I rarely seemed to get it stranded in hand. This might be the tempo deck that can actually make use of the card. I would maybe make some minor adjustments to the SB (-1 Nihil, +1 Grafdigger's, -1 Sower, +1 Gilded Drake, possibly a few other changes) but otherwise the list is great.

I'm really surprised more people in this thread haven't commented on this. This list is worth testing with/against

[wcm8]

I'm really surprised more people in this thread haven't commented on this. This list is worth testing with/against

Assuming my copies of TM arrive in the mail this afternoon, I'll give the deck a real life spin tomorrow in my local store's Legacy 8-mans and let you know how it goes. I've done a handful of test runs on Cockatrice and it seems okay, but player quality on Cockatrice tends to be hit-and-miss.

Dan mentioned in the Menendian TM thread in Format & Article Discussion that he would drop the Deathmarks for Massacre, and also that his deck tech explaining the card choices should be up on gatheringmagic.com sometime tomorrow.

I got the feeling that the card tended to be mediocre at best against RUG, but was nuts-awesome against decks without a ton of counter magic. I also think that as techy as Portent is, that slot might be better as Preordain for those times when you *need* to get some action going on your own turn -- I could be completely wrong here though, and I haven't done enough testing to really say, and I can only assume that Dan and the Hatfields chose each card pretty carefully.

[ScatmanX]

I got the feeling that the card tended to be mediocre at best against RUG, but was nuts-awesome against decks without a ton of counter magic. I also think that as techy as Portent is, that slot might be better as Preordain for those times when you *need* to get some action going on your own turn -- I could be completely wrong here though, and I haven't done enough testing to really say, and I can only assume that Dan and the Hatfields chose each card pretty carefully.
Your thoguhts on T.Mastery coincide with my testing results. They're great here, but against Tempo decks they seem lackuster.

Portent, on the other hand, has been nothing but awesome. Activating T.M. on your opponents turn is backbreacking. And I even got to use twice against a manascrewed goblin player to prevent him from drawing lands. Super cool card.

[menace13]

Assuming my copies of TM arrive in the mail this afternoon, I'll give the deck a real life spin tomorrow in my local store's Legacy 8-mans and let you know how it goes. I've done a handful of test runs on Cockatrice and it seems okay, but player quality on Cockatrice tends to be hit-and-miss.

Dan mentioned in the Menendian TM thread in Format & Article Discussion that he would drop the Deathmarks for Massacre, and also that his deck tech explaining the card choices should be up on gatheringmagic.com sometime tomorrow.

I got the feeling that the card tended to be mediocre at best against RUG, but was nuts-awesome against decks without a ton of counter magic. I also think that as techy as Portent is, that slot might be better as Preordain for those times when you *need* to get some action going on your own turn -- I could be completely wrong here though, and I haven't done enough testing to really say, and I can only assume that Dan and the Hatfields chose each card pretty carefully.

Testing the deck past few days. Nothing heavy maybe 3 to 4 matches a night. TM does some amazing things against most decks without countermagic. It completely screws combat math for aggro decks when Delver/Stalker swing for 6 to 10.

It can simply out race most threats even when low on life points. Control and Combo cant afford to really counter it. If they do they are down against the deck having Hard discard, fast clocks and 10 counters. The hand or board states needed to make TM broken requires some set up, but what I'm setting up is another turn to swing and/or cripple with disruption.

And Got to live the dream too. :wink: Had a game where the deck went turn 1 Play ThoughtSeize, t2 Play Delver + Bstorm. Turn 3 Flip Delver on TM, Cast TM, play Wasteland, swing. Turn 4 Miracle for TM#2 , Wasteland #2, swing. Turn 5 blind TM#3. Doesn't even matter what deck it was against at that point.

[wcm8]

And Got to live the dream too. :wink: Had a game where the deck went turn 1 Play ThoughtSeize, t2 Play Delver + Bstorm. Turn 3 Flip Delver on TM, Cast TM, play Wasteland, swing. Turn 4 Miracle for TM#2 , Wasteland #2, swing. Turn 5 blind TM#3. Doesn't even matter what deck it was against at that point.

This would be the most epic thing to capture on camera. Someone needs to bring this deck to a SCG Open and get this sequence recorded for posterity. The commentators and entire room would go silent, the opponent's jaw would drop, then suddenly an uproar of clapping, balloons/confetti falling from the ceiling, celebration music, women in lingerie, and Steve Menendian trouncing out on a golden throne, holding a chalice full of Beta Black Lotii with a streaming banner that says 'I TOLD YOU SO'.

[menace13]

This would be the most epic thing to capture on camera. Someone needs to bring this deck to a SCG Open and get this sequence recorded for posterity. The commentators and entire room would go silent, the opponent's jaw would drop, then suddenly an uproar of clapping, balloons/confetti falling from the ceiling, celebration music, women in lingerie, and Steve Menendian trouncing out on a golden throne, holding a chalice full of Beta Black Lotii with a streaming banner that say 'I TOLD YOU SO'.
HAhaah. I imagined it did the same thing. I took the screenie because it was awesome. Check your PM.

Edit; Not playing Portent havent even tried it yet. 2nd Library and 4th Daze different from the 13th GP list.

[sdematt]

Post the screenie. You must! :P

-Matt

[wcm8]

http://www.gatheringmagic.com/richcastle-07062012team-america-legacy-deck-tech/

Dan's interview/deck tech. Sower is for Maverick and SnT, whereas Gilded Drake would have a more limited application. Fair enough. The video missed mentioning Sylvan Library and the maindeck removal spells, but we all know why they're in there. Very nicely done!

[door]

http://www.gatheringmagic.com/richcastle-07062012team-america-legacy-deck-tech/

Dan's interview/deck tech. Sower is for Maverick and SnT, whereas Gilded Drake would have a more limited application. Fair enough. The video missed mentioning Sylvan Library and the maindeck removal spells, but we all know why they're in there. Very nicely done!

I'd like to hear more opinions about temporal masteries.

He says they're good against RUG. But I realise how much away I'd be if they stifle or spell pierce our mastery. An extra attack with Tombstalker though seems deadly.
The only good application I've found for masteries so far is in a heavy BUG control deck with 4 per-deeds and 4 plainswalkers.

[wcm8]

I'd like to hear more opinions about temporal masteries.

He says they're good against RUG. But I realise how much away I'd be if they stifle or spell pierce our mastery. An extra attack with Tombstalker though seems deadly.
The only good application I've found for masteries so far is in a heavy BUG control deck with 4 per-deeds and 4 plainswalkers.

I'm curious about the SB strategy against RUG as well. My approach would be:
-4 FoW
-4 Temporal Mastery
+2 Diabolic Edict
+2 Spell Pierce
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Maelstrom Pulse (or maybe Darkblast instead)
+1 Nihil Spellbomb

But if he's keeping TM in, I'm not sure what he would end up cutting instead, or if he even brings in the rest of it.

[reev_]

Top2 splited last weekend (i've didnt posted this before for some reason who i forgot right now)

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce
3 Daze

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize

2 Go for the Throat
1 Dismember
1 Darkblast

1 Life from the Loam

sb:

3 Pernicious Deed
2 Perish
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Submerge
2 extirpate
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Blue Elemental Blast
ps: Field called.

Mv of the day: Life from the Loam. Just fantastic at any time you draw it. It won some games against Maverick (with xx wastelands against something like Maze of ith, against him Wastelands with KotR, etc.) TES and zenith Rock. Also, a dredge to throw away those cards you know you dont care with ponder, brainstorm, delver, and get your stalker more viable. Same for Darkblast. Just amazing against Maverick.

Its a removal for all day long against maverick, blade decks (-1 in upkeep + dredge in draw phase + (-1) main phase), etc. Also get your Stalker strongest, again. ps: its save me from a game who I think is 99 percent to lose: Merfolk.

Matches: Grizel Reanimate, Maverick, Zenith Rock, TES, Merfolk, UW Miracle, UR Delver.

[Purgatory]

Top2 splited last weekend (i've didnt posted this before for some reason who i forgot right now)

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce
3 Daze

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize

2 Go for the Throat
1 Dismember
1 Darkblast

1 Life from the Loam

sb:

3 Pernicious Deed
2 Perish
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Submerge
2 extirpate
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Blue Elemental Blast
ps: Field called.

Mv of the day: Life from the Loam. Just fantastic at any time you draw it. It won some games against Maverick (with xx wastelands against something like Maze of ith, against him Wastelands with KotR, etc.) TES and zenith Rock. Also, a dredge to throw away those cards you know you dont care with ponder, brainstorm, delver, and get your stalker more viable. Same for Darkblast. Just amazing against Maverick.

Its a removal for all day long against maverick, blade decks (-1 in upkeep + dredge in draw phase + (-1) main phase), etc. Also get your Stalker strongest, again. ps: its save me from a game who I think is 99 percent to lose: Merfolk.

Matches: Grizel Reanimate, Maverick, Zenith Rock, TES, Merfolk, UW Miracle, UR Delver.

Some of the numbers feel messed up to me. Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing with the results, it's just funny that between this list and a list I'd intuitively play, some of the numbers are reversed: I'd much rather have the full set of Dazes rather than Spell Pierces, and I'd rather play 3 Thoughtseize and 2 Inquisition, not the other way around.

This is micro-managing on a terrible level, however. Congratulations on the nice result, and I love that list (maindeck Loam is so sweet). Did you ever miss Sylvan Library?

[reev_]

Some of the numbers feel messed up to me. Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing with the results, it's just funny that between this list and a list I'd intuitively play, some of the numbers are reversed: I'd much rather have the full set of Dazes rather than Spell Pierces, and I'd rather play 3 Thoughtseize and 2 Inquisition, not the other way around.

This is micro-managing on a terrible level, however. Congratulations on the nice result, and I love that list (maindeck Loam is so sweet). Did you ever miss Sylvan Library?

Ty.
3 kozileks and 2 seizes rather 3 seizes and 2 kozileks was a field call. We have Burn, Lot of Zoo and UR delver/canadian here. I know wich this field looks like poor for TA (plus goblins and Merfolk (like 20% of the field was goblins + merfolk)) but I though I MUST run Pernicious deed for that champ. And personally, I love Inquisiton of Kozilek.
I Though I could add a single Sylvan in main deck. That is another card who I love. But I don't think cut out a ponder or other good card for our tempo plan would be good.

[Tombstalker]

reev_ Congrats how many people were there? I like your list its similar to what i roll with and I also maindeck IoK LftL and darkblast + sometimes sylvan library. I love IoK too but I actually prefer duress to TS. Why GftT and dismember? Also I would be interested to hear about your SB.

On sylvan library, I have found this (and LftL) to be excellent main and if countered/destroyed it grows goyf. Its a bomb. I go back and forth on what I drop for it but its either the 4th wasteland or the 4th ponder, usually ponder now with SnS coming into power.

[wcm8]

Sooo I won a box of Innistrad playing the Miracle build last night. I can go into more detail about the matchups later, but one thing I really want to say about the deck is that it's so much fun to play. Temporal Mastery adds a certain excitement (and power) to the deck that didn't exist before. I dont think the card is nuts broken (especially since you have to warp the deck somewhat to make it reliable), but casting 2-3 of them over the course of a game just puts you so far ahead.

[Blitzbold]

Sooo I won a box of Innistrad playing the Miracle build last night. I can go into more detail about the matchups later, but one thing I really want to say about the deck is that it's so much fun to play. Temporal Mastery adds a certain excitement (and power) to the deck that didn't exist before. I dont think the card is nuts broken (especially since you have to warp the deck somewhat to make it reliable), but casting 2-3 of them over the course of a game just puts you so far ahead.

Congrats on your finish and +1 about TM.

Did you run the GP list card for a card or did you change something around? Did some test games myself against Nic Fit and Merfolk yesterday and the deck indeed is very nice. Both of theese matchups are more of a 50:50 in my feelings, so a lot depends on the players and the starting seven I guess. Smashing for 16 in the air in two consecutive turns with Tombstalker and Insectile Aboration is quite strong, though.

I changed the manabase a bit since there are a lot of Wastelands in my area. Maybe I am just to cautious, but the manabase worked pretty well during my games:

3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island (might switch one for another Misty Rainforest)
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs

The reason for just 3 UG Seas? Pimping the deck. I only own 3 bb Seas at the moment. :)

[wcm8]

I ran the list card-for-card, except changing the 2 deathmarks for 2 massacre

A card I would like to fit into the deck somewhere is life from the loam. I think against some decks, recurring wasteland several turns in a row would be backbreaking, and it's also a great card to protect yourself from mana screw.

[reev_]

Top4 in 26 man today with almost same list. Little difference in sb: -2 submerge +2 hymn to tourach. The field was a bit more combo decks.

[CookedChestnuts]

I went Top 8 today, went 5-0+2 intentional draws in the swiss. (Lost in two fast games versus the UW Miracle in Top 8, no byes for me.) Decklist felt very good:

4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Island
1 Taiga
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Nimble Mongoose

I was mostly happy with the deck though I wish I'd have one other counterspell to go down to 3 Pierce maindeck. 2 Snares feels correct though, so I can't go for a 3/3 split there.

About the Taiga: I had to mulligan once because of it, but for the rest of the day I liked it a lot.

In the sideboard, most notable card was the 2 Ancient Grudges. Sided it in in 4 of my 5 Swiss matches, always decided at least one game.

This is by far the greatest UBG deck I've ever seen.

[Oxmo39]

Sooo I won a box of Innistrad playing the Miracle build last night. I can go into more detail about the matchups later, but one thing I really want to say about the deck is that it's so much fun to play. Temporal Mastery adds a certain excitement (and power) to the deck that didn't exist before. I dont think the card is nuts broken (especially since you have to warp the deck somewhat to make it reliable), but casting 2-3 of them over the course of a game just puts you so far ahead.

Congrats for the win wcm!!
If you mind sharing your matchups, i'll be glad to hear them and how TM could influence your way to victory in the different games.

[Purgatory]

This is by far the greatest UBG deck I've ever seen.

It's funny, what I felt my BUG list was lacking in my last tournament was some good old burn for some reach. So I might concur with the statement above, cutting discard for some burn might be what BUG needs in some metagames ;)

[Blitzbold]

About the version running Temporal Masteries: @ Nitewolf9, wcm8, the Hatfields and others who played with the list:

1) Did any of you run into Submerge on Tombstalker at any time? This is an issue which bothers me a little bit.

2) Did you consider running any other color combination than UBg? UBx obv. is the best basis, as Tombstalker is the best creature to swing with, especially when your decks contains 4 Temporal Mastery, but other color combinations than UBg lack a suitable replacement for Tarmogoyf.

-> Red might be possible, offering burn and very good Sideboard options, but a creature is obv. better than a Lightning Bolt when taking extra turns. Lavamancer came to my mind, but he is manahungry and doesn't synergizes well with Tombstalker.
-> White offers unconditional removal and some nice SB options as well. Jötun Grunt came to mind, but again this is more of a conditional guy who also doesn't work very well with Tombstalker. Meddling Mage is nice, but more of a SB card.
-> Therefore splashing anything other than Green means we have to use something like Vendilion Clique, which is nice, but which is a 3 cmc card and therefore not providing any addtional early pressure next to Delver.

EDIT:
3) How did you like the singletons, especially Liliana of the Veil?

[reev_]

About the version running Temporal Masteries: @ Nitewolf9, wcm8, the Hatfields and others who played with the list:

1) Did any of you run into Submerge on Tombstalker at any time? This is an issue which bothers me a little bit.

2) Did you consider running any other color combination than UBg? UBx obv. is the best basis, as Tombstalker is the best creature to swing with, especially when your decks contains 4 Temporal Mastery, but other color combinations than UBg lack a suitable replacement for Tarmogoyf.

-> Red might be possible, offering burn and very good Sideboard options, but a creature is obv. better than a Lightning Bolt when taking extra turns. Lavamancer came to my mind, but he is manahungry and doesn't synergizes well with Tombstalker.
-> White offers unconditional removal and some nice SB options as well. Jötun Grunt came to mind, but again this is more of a conditional guy who also doesn't work very well with Tombstalker. Meddling Mage is nice, but more of a SB card.
-> Therefore splashing anything other than Green means we have to use something like Vendilion Clique, which is nice, but which is a 3 cmc card and therefore not providing any addtional early pressure next to Delver.

EDIT:
3) How did you like the singletons, especially Liliana of the Veil?


This is a good Issue. We need take in mind ubr would be a tempo deck, but an ubw dont. In this case, we must put some sfm package. Is the best white creature. So i think if we chose ubw, we must run a control deck, with Jaces, maybe Geist or Snapecaster, etc.

[wcm8]

Getting your creature submerged really sucks, especially if said creature is Tombstalker, but there are a few things to keep in mind:

-At most, RUG and similar decks will only have 3-4 Submerges. Barring something unusual like Mind Harness or Dismember, this is their only out to a resolved big creature of yours. Worrying too much about a removal spell doesn't seem worth it.
-You run Thoughtseize and counterspells. Prioritize 'seizing their threats, then removal. RUG can't really function as a deck without a threat on board.
-Try to crack fetchlands early to avoid getting your creatures shuffled away.
-If possible, try to hold off on fetching your Tropicals and Bayous. This is really draw dependent though, sometimes you'll be finding more Tarmogoyfs than Tombstalkers.

Caleb Durward mentions the Temporal Mastery build in his newest article here: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-interpreting-the-gp-weekend/

One thing interesting to note is that Dan opted to run Hymn over Thoughtseize (and also cut a fetchland for a second Bayou). I think Hymn is a completely reasonable choice depending on the metagame. Seize is generally better versus control and combo, whereas Hymn is often preferable against aggressive and midrange decks. I personally prefer Thoughtseize right now.

I am planning on playing in a local tournament this weekend and will give the TM list another go, with possibly a few variations. I'll keep y'alls posted on how it goes.

[nitewolf9]

I'm pretty sure Thoughtseize is just better right now, as you really want to nab swords against maverick in order to race them, it resolves more often against rug, and it is better with Temporal mastery as it costs less and can be played usually the turn you mastery if you have to do it early.

I'm also trying an Island instead of the 9th fetch (obv playing 4 misty/4 delta now) in order to more effectively set up mastery through wastelands. Seems fine so far, haven't really had much trouble with the manabase with the 1 basic. Also nice to give path a drawback.

[wcm8]

I'm pretty sure Thoughtseize is just better right now, as you really want to nab swords against maverick in order to race them, it resolves more often against rug, and it is better with Temporal mastery as it costs less and can be played usually the turn you mastery if you have to do it early.

I'm also trying an Island instead of the 9th fetch (obv playing 4 misty/4 delta now) in order to more effectively set up mastery through wastelands. Seems fine so far, haven't really had much trouble with the manabase with the 1 basic. Also nice to give path a drawback.

Seems reasonable. What about fitting in a basic Swamp as well? I could see cutting a Wasteland for the Swamp being a possibility. I definitely wouldn't want to drop below 8 fetchlands though.

Any new SB tech? Have you considered adding Jace back in the 75?

[Blitzbold]

Seems reasonable. What about fitting in a basic Swamp as well? I could see cutting a Wasteland for the Swamp being a possibility. I definitely wouldn't want to drop below 8 fetchlands though.


I changed the manabase a bit since there are a lot of Wastelands in my area. Maybe I am just to cautious, but the manabase worked pretty well during my games:

3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island (might switch one for another Misty Rainforest)
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs

The reason for just 3 UG Seas? Pimping the deck. I only own 3 bb Seas at the moment. :)

There you are. -1 Tropical, +1 Misty Rainforest means 6 duals, 2 basics, 8 fetch, 4 Wasteland


Any new SB tech? Have you considered adding Jace back in the 75?

Jace would be ultra sweet, as he were another guy massively profiting from taking extra turns. 4 cmc in a deck with Dazes doesn't seem that hot, though.

The Virtue's Ruin Caleb suggested seems reasonable if you expect some Maverick. Dan also mentioned in his deck tech that the matchups against fast red-based decks aren't that good (Burn, UR Delver and probably Goblins as well), so I considered 1-2 Blue Elemental Blasts. Misdirecting burn to one of their creatures would be nice as well, but I this might be a bit too fancy.

I'd never leave home with less than 4 graveyard hate, 4-6 additional removal depending on the expected meta (Edicts, Darkblast, Massacre, Virtue's Ruin, Dread of Night...) and some Spell Pierces (I'd love to fit 2 of them main), which leaves 2-4 meta-dependant slots.


As for the mainbord, did any of you consider playing 1-2 Vendilion Cliques? It would be another way to play Temporal Mastery on the opponent's turn, even though this would require 5 mana.

[Oxmo39]

Has anyone had any issue with the low amount of cheap removal in the MD (in the TP build) ?
The only slot that could be switched for this extra removal would be Lili & the pulse...i still don't know if the cheaper/faster factor should be prevalent over versatily...
I often wished the pulse in my hand was a hard removal, though it is sweet to have an out MD against an equipment or a PW.
Any thoughts about that from more expercienced players with this deck ?

I know the aim of the deck is to drop a flyier and ride it to victory, and just deal with the critters that really threaten my game plan, but i nearly always want/need a removal in my first 7...or am i missing sth ?

[Blitzbold]

Has anyone had any issue with the low amount of cheap removal in the MD (in the TP build) ?
The only slot that could be switched for this extra removal would be Lili & the pulse...i still don't know if the cheaper/faster factor should be prevalent over versatily...
I often wished the pulse in my hand was a hard removal, though it is sweet to have an out MD against an equipment or a PW.
Any thoughts about that from more expercienced players with this deck ?

I know the aim of the deck is to drop a flyier and ride it to victory, and just deal with the critters that really threaten my game plan, but i nearly always want/need a removal in my first 7...or am i missing sth ?

I went through some (pre-board) test games vs. Merfolk for about 2.5 hours. This can get quite rough, dependant on their and your hand. Getting overrun by a horde of pumped Islandwalkers happens pretty regularily, and additional removal would be nice here. Fast flyers + Goyf + counter for the lord usually gets us there, though.

There are a lot of options for removal out of the board, and although the removal suite used by Dan and the Hatfields might be best for an unknown and broard field, you'd better adjust it for your local metagame. For example, I was thinking of bringing 1-2 Engineered Plagues.


Another matchup I found to be very problematic is against UW Miracle control. Preboard it's even or slightly positive, but postboard their deck consists of removal, removal, removal, cantrips, CB + Top, Jaces and Entreats. The only reliable way of winning here seems to be riding Liliana of the Veil, as I didn't manage to get in more than 12-15 damage via creatures on a regular basis. I am therefore considering a second Liliana in the board (Maindeck is tight as it is).

Boarding is difficult, though, as you want your Spell Pierces as well as Pulse and EE to deal with tokens, CB, Jace or even Oblivion Ring. Tempo counters aren't very effective here as they usually manage to survive into the mid- to lategame, where Daze obv. sucks and Spell Pierce probably only gets a greedy spell of them. Maybe it's right to leave the TMs in here, as it it's your best way to out-tempo them.

Contrary to fighting traditional control, even Thoughseize doesn' seem to be that hot postboard, as they are able to live from the top of their deck if they got a SDT into play. All in all this feels like a pretty rough matchup.

[Oxmo39]

thanks for your answer.
i still don't know how to adapt my sb for all aggro MU's with the tribal decks coming back. I hope to get some time this week.

About the UW match up, i hadn't any chance to test this MU but i expected it to be difficult...
But before siding in extra Liliana, i'd consider Jace. Sure we run only 20 lands (you play 2 basics), but combined with 10 cantrips + sylvan library, you should be able to cast him. Furthermore, they don't play wasteland and dazes will be out.

I await a lot of UW decks at the GP ( i guess you're also preparing to it), hence i'd really like to give some SB slots to this MU, and besides Jace, i don't really see what else I could bring...
Jace is also useful against esper decks which should be strongly represented as well.

[Goddik]

Key to beating merfolk is Jace + Deed+ plenty of removal. Goblins used to be a pretty good matchup and the absence of stifle and hymn shouldn't hurt that much. The big change if other aggro decks start to become popular is to switch the massacres and perishes to deeds and ghastly demises. I would start any TA sideboard with 2-4 sweepers, 2 spot removals and 2 Jace. It has historically been really good against both merfolk and maverick

[Goddik]

Deed, Pulse and explosives are all really good against the miracle deck as they deal with the tokens and counterbalance, so gearing your removal in the sideboard in that direction will help.

I played something quite close to spikes list at the first tournament at BOM this year and the pulses were definately nice. The matchup against U/W is about 50/50, so not as scary as you think, but not perfect either

Another idea is to play stifle again, i imagine that would do wonders in the matchup. An oldschool list with stifle and hymn should have no trouble against the miracle deck. I am actually considering returning to that (if i wasn't on BUG control) as i think it beats most of the meta except for maverick and you loose that matchup preboard anyway.

I would start testing with this list


2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Force of Will
3 Snuff Out
1 Sylvan Library
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
3 Stifle
2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 2 Ghastly Demise
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 2 Sower of Temptation
SB: 2 Pernicious Deed

The explosives could be lilianas if you want something that is relevant against combo.

[Blitzbold]

Sorry, I was talking about the version featuring Temporal Mastery.

[Tombstalker]

My removal suite right now is 2 snuff out 2 edict 1 darkblast (2 Liliana) and its been good. I've also been boarding pithing needles lately and they have been surprisingly good. I agree the sb should start with 3-4 sweepers.

[wcm8]

Went a miserable 2-2 at yesterday's event. I lost 0-2 to RUG (just could not find removal or resolve a Tombstalker, and G2 got choked on mana) and 0-2 vs. that new RBw Zombies deck (none of our removal is very effective, and eventually they can get the life gain combo out and undo all the Delver beats).

I did beat Show and Tell 2-0 and BW Death and Taxes 2-0. SnT was just a matter of resolving a few Thoughtseizes and having timely Wastelands, Dazes, etc. Death and Taxes is not typically an easy matchup, but I was able to race with a Tombstalker in the first game, and the second game, well... The second game was pretty epic.

He had an active Bitterblossom, a few Spirit Tokens (via Lingering Souls), a Stoneforge Mystic, and a Jitte with 4 counters on it equipped to a Faerie token. My board was mostly empty except for a Sylvan library and about 4 lands. Essentially what happened was I manipulated my hand and library for the next five turns (YES, FIVE) by casting all of my Temporal Masteries, first by resolving a Tombstalker, then resolving a Massacre to clear his board (he was already forced to gain life from Jitte to stay alive), and then sealing the deal with a second Tombstalker and the 4th Temporal Mastery. I ended the game at 1 life (drew a couple extra cards from Sylvan).

This sort of game state is unlikely, but it does go to show that TM can really help out against those matchups based on attrition.

That said, I think a board control version of BUG would have been a better choice for the day, as it seems like my local metagame has a fair amount of aggro decks running around.

Alternatively, I would consider reconfiguring the SB to better handle a wider range of decks. I'm also thinking that as good as TM is, the deck as a whole might function better if we drop down to 2-3 copies (and maybe also cut a Portent) and play a bit more removal or increase the Daze/Discard count.

[colo]

He had an active Bitterblossom, a few Spirit Tokens (via Lingering Souls), a Stoneforge Mystic, and a Jitte with 4 counters on it equipped to a Faerie token.

Nitpicking here, because it's about two of my favourite decks (TA and DnT): whatever you played against, it was not Death and Taxes. From the cards you mentioned, it sounds more like BW StoneBlade.

[Zand]

Hey guys, just picking up this deck. I love the concept of Hymns and pressure and this seems like the best place to start. Why hasn't this deck picked up Scavenging Ooze yet? If not in the main deck, at least the sideboard?

[Spike]

I like Scavening Ooze a lot in the sideboard cause its a big trump against Canadian and other creature decks like Maverick. Because we are not exiling our opponents creatures but actually killing them with black removal and also hitting them with our discard, the Ooze will have a lot to eat and therefore helps us stabilize and control the board. I´m also a fan of 1-2 Jitte in the SB when you´re playing Ooze. That package has served me well during testing and it improves the Maverick and Canadian matchup a lot, while Oooze still being a powerful card against graveyard strategies.

[apistat_commander]

Here is a build I am considering:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
2 Ghastly
2 Snuff Out

2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Ponder
1 Maelstrom Pulse

1 Sylvan Library

4 Sea
3 Trop
1 Island
8 Fetch
4 Waste

I don't really know about my sideboard yet. My meta consists of RUG, Esper Stoneblade, Miracles, Goblins, Sneak/Show, Nic Fit, and Maverick. No GY based decks and very little combo. Thoughts?

[Zand]

Recently piloted a Tombstalker version of the list to a top 8 finish at a 50 man tourney. If the various Show and Tell decks become more popular then this deck is definitely positioned well, they struggle in the face of disruption with efficient threats.


I tried a Venser, Shaper Savant in the sideboard as a Show and Tell catch-all and he was pretty good, what do you guys think?

How has the Mongoose version of the deck been going?

[CookedChestnuts]

How has the Mongoose version of the deck been going?

I don't think the Mongoose version of this deck is where you want to be right now. Any deck playing Nimble Mongoose that isn't Canadian Threshold is doing it wrong in my opinion. Canadian Threshold is very good at dealing exactly 20 damage, and without burn in the deck, Nimble Mongoose isn't nearly as good. Usually a blocker comes for Nimble Mongoose around turns 3-4, which is normally when you first get threshold. Unless you also have a Delver beating in the entire time, then it's difficult to finish the game. A larger threat like Tombstalker is a lot more efficient for closing games than Nimble Mongoose is because of the lack of burn.

[reev_]

Here is a build I am considering:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
2 Ghastly
2 Snuff Out

2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Ponder
1 Maelstrom Pulse

1 Sylvan Library

4 Sea
3 Trop
1 Island
8 Fetch
4 Waste

I don't really know about my sideboard yet. My meta consists of RUG, Esper Stoneblade, Miracles, Goblins, Sneak/Show, Nic Fit, and Maverick. No GY based decks and very little combo. Thoughts?

I've running this, which seems very close to your version:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Spell Pierce
3 Go for the Throat
1 Darkblast

2 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Ponder

1 Life from the Loam

4 Sea
3 Trop
1 Island
8 Fetch
4 Waste

SB:
3 Pernicious deed
1 Perish
2 Extirpate
3 Grafdiger's Cage
3 Hydroblast
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Ghastly Demise

Also, i'm testing a single Ooze (3 goyfs). Seems pretty good to me, and I made some good things with this list.

[xfxf]

Guys, I'm looking at GerryT's BUG Death's Shadow list and it looks a lot like Team America as we know it but with the difference of Tombstalker-Death's Shadow. Getting a Tombstalker swords'ed is a big deal whereas getting a Death's Shadow swords'ed is a smaller hit on your commitment. Do you guys think the flying of Tombstalker still makes it a better choice in a BUG tempo deck? For reference here's the list:

4 Death's Shadow
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf

3 Sylvan Library

4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Dismember
4 Force of Will
3 Snuff Out


4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize

1 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Overgrown Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland
1 Watery Grave

[azador]

@Bilb_o, I personally do believe that the fact that tombstalker flies is huge. In many instances against creature decks the game ends due to everyone's favorite 5/5 flier. Furthermore, I feel that death's shadow is actively bad against said creature decks not to mention any deck slinging red spells. He just pushes us to do even more damage to ourselves than we already do, if he trampled I'd be all over it though. Evasion is sweet.

While on the note of advocating tombstalker, I'd like to say I've been doing very well lately with good 'ole TA at my local 4 round events. I sleeved it back up after a bit of a hiatus 3 weeks ago and have since posted a 9-2-1 record. One loss was to elves, I punted hard, my fault. The other was to SneakyShow where he, in his own words "drew like a fiend." The nine wins included the same Elf player, same SneakyShow player, Mono-red painter, Bant, Gobbos, Burn, Affinity, Esperblade, and Mono Black. The draw was intentional, and against the same Mono Red Painter deck.

I'm super stoked this thread has had life breathed back into it the last couple days. Obligatory list is as follows:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Go for the Throat
1 Snuff Out
1 Dismember

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

SB:
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Krosan Grip
1 Life from the Loam
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Spell Pierce
4 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique

It took me a while to jump on the Delver train, after losing to it a few times thanks to Canadian Thresh I decided I may as well. Love it, I know it's old news now, but I haven't played a deck with creatures in a while until these last few weeks. A one drop that gives free wins is tough to ignore, which brings me to my next point.

Stifle. Why hasn't it been getting much love as of late? The lists being posted aren't running it, the number of free wins I get off the card is nuts, am I missing something here? Or is it a strictly preference thing?

[Mr. Safety]

Is anyone going to be playing Deathrite Shaman/Abrupt Decay in their Team America lists? They both seem to have merit...Decay in place of Maelstrom Pulse and Shaman as a mana-fixer/reach.

[Hanni]

I don't see how the Shaman fits into Team America's gameplan at all. The deck doesn't really need the mana ramp, and it's not aggressive whatsoever. If it was a 2/1, it would be playable in alot more decks. As a 1/2, it's pretty much confined to midrange strategies.

[wcm8]

For my 666th post, I will post in my favorite deck's topic :D

I think Abrupt Decay can help breathe some new life into the archetype.

The problem with TA always seemed to be the awkward selection of black removal -- it was either not fast enough, too narrow, or just plain inefficient for the Legacy metagame. You were forced to choose between going with the efficient but sometimes inconsistent Ghastly Demise, cheap but costly Snuff Out or Dismember, generally-reliable yet slow 2cmc removal like Go for the Throat or Diabolic Edict, or fit in the plodding Maelstrom Pulse into the main as a catch-all. Abrupt Decay solves this dilemma: it fits on-curve, kills every creature you'd likely want to kill at instant speed, and has utility against other permanent types. The added bonus of uncounterability gives it extra strength against Counterbalance, Chalice of the Void, and RUG's creatures. The only thing that could have made it better is if it had a mode to make an opponent lose life. I am not sure yet how many copies the deck wants to play, but for testing purposes I plan on just running with the full 4 copies.

Temporal Mastery is a great tech for the archetype as well, but during my testing with it I always felt like the problem with the deck was the lack of good removal selection -- thankfully TA now has access to Decay. With Temporal Mastery, the deck plays out similar to RUG in the early turns, disrupting the opponents' lines of play, setting up with cantrips, and possibly dropping a Delver or Goyf. But what happens eventually is you get a Tombstalker and maybe another creature out and set up an alpha air strike with Temporal Mastery(s), giving the deck somewhat of a combo-esque finish.

The advantage BUG always had over RUG was its ability to host a transformative sideboard, and the general usefulness of discard against combo and control decks. For testing purposes, I would start with the following in the SB: 2 Life from the Loam and 2-3 Jace the Mindsculptor. From there you can tailor the deck for the expected metagame. The main deck should be based around the lists that Dan Signorini and the Hatfields were playing around the time of Grand Prix Indianapolis.

TA will face the same problem as RUG for a period of time if Rest in Peace becomes popular, but TA can still either counter the card or pre-emptively discard it via Thoughtseize. Worst case, it can also rebuild its yard after an end-of-turn Abrupt Decay. If tempo still has a place in the post-RtR metagame (and I think it will), TA may be poised to make a comeback as the 'bigger' version of Canadian Thresh.

[Zand]

I agree, Shaman doesn't really do a whole lot that the deck wants. Abrupt Decay on the other hand will be a pretty sweet addition to the removal suite. I'm going to be replacing Snuff Out and Ghastly Demise in my list. I want to keep some number of Pulse in the list because have a catch all for tokens, Jace, Batterskull etc is pretty nice.

Edit: I don't actually like siding into Jace that much, I haven't had much success with it. Have people tried a sideboard Venser, Shaper Savant? It is sweet tech against Show and Tell!

[Borealis]

I was talking about this on the RUG thread, but then realized it would be better appreciated here.

I play RUG, but I've been wanting to build a BUG deck for awhile now, especially after completing my set of Undergrounds (WOOT!).

This is a list I saw on SCG that I'm curious enough to give a shot at. It's rough, to be sure, but looks decent enough on paper.

BUG Thresh (Per Benjamin Brueseke's SCG article):

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce
2 Thought Scour

2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize

Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:

3 Baleful Strix
4 Submerge
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Massacre

Pretty sure I'd change his SB around a bit, but otherwise it looks like a solid place to start. If I actually do sleeve it up and give it a run, I'll let you know how it goes.

[Zand]

Why not run Deathmark over some number of Submerge?

[Jessenator]

For my 666th post, I will post in my favorite deck's topic :D

I think Abrupt Decay can help breathe some new life into the archetype.

The problem with TA always seemed to be the awkward selection of black removal -- it was either not fast enough, too narrow, or just plain inefficient for the Legacy metagame. You were forced to choose between going with the efficient but sometimes inconsistent Ghastly Demise, cheap but costly Snuff Out or Dismember, generally-reliable yet slow 2cmc removal like Go for the Throat or Diabolic Edict, or fit in the plodding Maelstrom Pulse into the main as a catch-all. Abrupt Decay solves this dilemma: it fits on-curve, kills every creature you'd likely want to kill at instant speed, and has utility against other permanent types. The added bonus of uncounterability gives it extra strength against Counterbalance, Chalice of the Void, and RUG's creatures. The only thing that could have made it better is if it had a mode to make an opponent lose life. I am not sure yet how many copies the deck wants to play, but for testing purposes I plan on just running with the full 4 copies.

Temporal Mastery is a great tech for the archetype as well, but during my testing with it I always felt like the problem with the deck was the lack of good removal selection -- thankfully TA now has access to Decay. With Temporal Mastery, the deck plays out similar to RUG in the early turns, disrupting the opponents' lines of play, setting up with cantrips, and possibly dropping a Delver or Goyf. But what happens eventually is you get a Tombstalker and maybe another creature out and set up an alpha air strike with Temporal Mastery(s), giving the deck somewhat of a combo-esque finish.

The advantage BUG always had over RUG was its ability to host a transformative sideboard, and the general usefulness of discard against combo and control decks. For testing purposes, I would start with the following in the SB: 2 Life from the Loam and 2-3 Jace the Mindsculptor. From there you can tailor the deck for the expected metagame. The main deck should be based around the lists that Dan Signorini and the Hatfields were playing around the time of Grand Prix Indianapolis.

TA will face the same problem as RUG for a period of time if Rest in Peace becomes popular, but TA can still either counter the card or pre-emptively discard it via Thoughtseize. Worst case, it can also rebuild its yard after an end-of-turn Abrupt Decay. If tempo still has a place in the post-RtR metagame (and I think it will), TA may be poised to make a comeback as the 'bigger' version of Canadian Thresh.

Nice post #666 bro! I agree with this, I have been trying the Jace in the sideboard today and I found it to be extremely ridiculous against control decks, especially Stoneforge focused decks. I definitely think that 1 mana removal spells are still needed, as the fact that a lot of turn 1 plays in this format are game-changing. (Mom, Lacky). I still like Ghastly Demise at 1 or 2 to stop these things, or maybe even Dismember?

The advantage that RUG has is that it gets to run a lot more soft-counters due to their unremovable threat (Goose). We cannot rely on that, maybe Temporal Mastery is pushing it too far and trying too hard? Maybe we should make the deck more consistent by adding Spell Pierces / Snares? Or more hand disruption? I'm not sure on this part at all. I guess our 1 cmc discard spell serves the same purpose as a soft-counter? I always feel like our 8 threats are not enough (I consider Tombstalkers a mid/late game threat). I just feel RUG can use their mana more efficiently and function on less lands, that's the advantage that we don't have and I feel like we should strife towards that direction.

[Borealis]

Why not run Deathmark over some number of Submerge?

Absolutely possible. Darkblast is another card I'd love to see in the board. There are a lot of options. My game 1 against MAverick should be slightly better with this list though.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

I've done some testing yesterday and i feel like the list need 1-2 more mana and a singleton Sylvan Library, just because it's awesome. I played Bob ind place of Goofs though, might change that. What about replacing the 2 Thought Scours with Darkblasts in the main? They mill fast and are good removal against Maverick and Tribal right now.


Jaces and Cliques out of the board are pretty good against Miracles, Dread of Night owns DnT and Maverick.

[Mr. Safety]

I don't see how the Shaman fits into Team America's gameplan at all. The deck doesn't really need the mana ramp, and it's not aggressive whatsoever. If it was a 2/1, it would be playable in alot more decks. As a 1/2, it's pretty much confined to midrange strategies.

Fair enough...just asking the question, and I got a good answer. Thanks! My initial thought was that it was another 1-drop for the deck, maybe not a full set getting squeezed in but 2 copies to provide reach a-la-Grim Lavamancer style (avoiding combat.)

[catmint]

My thoughts on the Team America list from the article are:

- Running the same manabase as RUG but a more expensive curve:" Abrupt Decay vs. Lightning Bolt" is not a good idea I think.

Decay is super-powerful, but it has still the problem of not costing 1 or 0 which is the nuts for tempo decks. Costing 2 is just very bad against Thalia, so I think you have to also run cheaper removal.

So my approach would be to adapt the deck slightly to RUG. You do not have reach (bolt) but with decay/black removal more power to clear the way for the ground creatures. Therefore I would up the land count (as common for Team America) and play something like 3 Ghastly Demise and 3 Abrupt Decay Maindeck

My first draft
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Ghastly Demise

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize

Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

[Maximus]

Hello all, I'm new and learning the Legacy format.

What is the current sideboard composition supposed to look like in a varied format? I'm interested in both card choice and strategy. It seems like a subject that should come back every few months, but I haven't seen too much new information about it here.

I never thought I'd be able to afford a deck this expensive.

[Zand]

It really depends on your meta. My Sideboard generally has 4-6 slots of graveyard hate, some number of good cards against Maverick (Deathmark, Virtue's Ruin, Dread of Night for example), some cards for Show and Tell decks (Diabolic Edict, Venser, Shaper Savant etc) and some good cards against Control and Combo (Spell Pierce, Sylvan Library, Jace Beleren etc etc).


Other good options are things like Engineered Plague/Explosives if tribal is more of a thing in your meta, Pernicious Deed is an okay one also. People like to side board into JTMS but I don't think that is particularly good in this deck, it isn't particularly good against aggro and against control you will mostly just be a worse Jace deck instead of focusing on being the aggro deck in the matchup.

[Zand]

Sorry about the double post but I wanted to ask how people have found Abrupt Decay in testing? I've been really liking the versatility of the spell, even if it can be a bit slow sometimes

[Jessenator]

Sorry about the double post but I wanted to ask how people have found Abrupt Decay in testing? I've been really liking the versatility of the spell, even if it can be a bit slow sometimes

Decay has been absolutely amazing for me in testing. Being a little slow is not the problem I was having. But playing multiple green spells in the deck is taxing to our mana base a little more than I liked it. Fetching for lands has never been so awkward latey.

[rud]

Hey all. I've just got back into Magic after a lapse of 10+ years. I'm still getting up to speed with things and would be grateful for advice.

Has anyone been playing this recently? I'd be very interested in any updated lists which include Abrupt Decay. Please comment on the composition of my Main Deck & Sideboard and particularly, on how I might use the Sideboard (I've posted my general sideboarding plan below but perhaps I am getting it wrong -- I win my share of Game 1s but never seem to do as well in Games 2 & 3).

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Ghastly Demise
3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle

2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize

1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland

SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 2 Pernicious Deed
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 2 Deathmark
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Darkblast


vs Miracle Control:

-2 Ghastly Demise
-1 Force of Will
-1 Daze
-1 Spell Pierce
+2 Flusterstorm
+1 Sylvan Library
+2 Pernicious Deed

vs Sneak & Show:

-2 Ghastly Demise
-3 Abrupt Decay
+2 Flusterstorm
+2 Diabolic Edict
+1 Surgical Extraction

vs Maverick

The Maverick decks seem to develop their mana base really quickly and my Dazes are pretty useless more often than not. I've cut 2 in the list below, maybe all 3 to fit a single Extraction?

-1 Spell Pierce
-2 Force of Will
-2 Daze
+1 Darkblast
+2 Deathmark
+2 Pernicious Deed

vs Goblins

I tend to do very badly against Goblins and I'm really unsure of how I should side against the deck. Stifles seem useful against some of the things Goblins throw up so I'm keeping those and have shaved a couple of counters for what I think will help. Would it be better to use Surgical Extraction in place of Edict? Or perhaps cut more counters for both Edict & Extraction?

-3 Spell Pierce
-1 Force of Will
-1 Daze
+1 Darkblast
+2 Pernicious Deed
+2 Diabolic Edict / Surgical Extraction


vs Dredge / Reanimator

Against Reanimator, I figure I'm better off extracting enablers like Exhume, Reanimate etc. instead of using Diabolic Edict to kill their creatures. Against Dredge, I would extract the dredgers. Is this correct?

-2 Ghastly Demise
-3 Abrupt Decay
+3 Surgical Extraction
+2 Grafdigger's Cage


vs Canadian Threshold

Another match-up I'm unsure about. Everything in the main deck seems relevant - maybe cut 2 FOW for 2 Flusterstorms?


vs Combo

-3 Abrupt Decay
-2 Ghastly Demise
+2 Flusterstorm
+1 Sylvan Library
+2 Surgical Extraction


Please let me know if I'm thinking along the right lines for each match-up and if I've made reasonable choices for both my Main deck and Sideboard.

Thank you

[Zand]

Hey all. I've just got back into Magic after a lapse of 10+ years. I'm still getting up to speed with things and would be grateful for advice.

Has anyone been playing this recently? I'd be very interested in any updated lists which include Abrupt Decay. Please comment on the composition of my Main Deck & Sideboard and particularly, on how I might use the Sideboard (I've posted my general sideboarding plan below but perhaps I am getting it wrong -- I win my share of Game 1s but never seem to do as well in Games 2 & 3).

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Ghastly Demise
3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle

2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize

1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland

SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 2 Pernicious Deed
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 2 Deathmark
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Darkblast




Welcome back, you have chosen a fantastic deck! I think that the basics are pretty unnecessary, I would trade them for a Wasteland, a Bayou and an Underground Sea. Also, I think that playing less than 4 Ponders is a mistake, it adds so much consistency to the deck. I would consider cutting the Ghastly Demises (for Ponder and a Snuff Out/Abrupt Decay) just because they don't work very well with Tombstalker. Also, 3 Stifles seems odd to me because it's a card you want in your opening hand because it is most likely to be relevant on the first couple of turns.

[dionykos]

Hey all. I've just got back into Magic after a lapse of 10+ years. I'm still getting up to speed with things and would be grateful for advice.

Has anyone been playing this recently? I'd be very interested in any updated lists which include Abrupt Decay. Please comment on the composition of my Main Deck & Sideboard and particularly, on how I might use the Sideboard (I've posted my general sideboarding plan below but perhaps I am getting it wrong -- I win my share of Game 1s but never seem to do as well in Games 2 & 3).

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Ghastly Demise
3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle

2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize

1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland

SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 2 Pernicious Deed
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 2 Deathmark
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Darkblast



Welcome back! I think you are coming back exactly when the BUG colors may come back too (thank you Abrupt Decay)

Quick comments on your list, broadly accepted:
- don't play basic lands, the deck doesn't support it well, it will mess with your colors too often.
- play 4 ponders, together with brainstorm, they really make the deck work consistently

Now suggestions, more a personal point of view based on my experience with the deck:
- you probably need 4 removals that can be played T1, to deal with Mother of Runes, Goblin Lackey, Thalia, Delver, and other 1 drops.
- play 4 Wasteland. You're playing a Tempo Deck, and Wasteland helps a lot in this strategy.

I have cut the Stifles from the deck a long time ago, to adopt a more tap-out strategy. I personally really like it. Obviously it's also a metagame call, if your meta is infested with RUG and Control, Stifle is good.

Now, Abrupt Decay is awsome. 2 manas is a lot for a Tempo deck, but the card seems so broken that you need some copies in the main, and possibly the rest in the sideboard. I'm actually in the process of testing, but I don't have enough experience with it yet to say how many we need in the main.


SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 2 Pernicious Deed
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 2 Deathmark
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Darkblast


vs Miracle Control:

-2 Ghastly Demise
-1 Force of Will
-1 Daze
-1 Spell Pierce
+2 Flusterstorm
+1 Sylvan Library
+2 Pernicious Deed

vs Sneak & Show:

-2 Ghastly Demise
-3 Abrupt Decay
+2 Flusterstorm
+2 Diabolic Edict
+1 Surgical Extraction

vs Maverick

The Maverick decks seem to develop their mana base really quickly and my Dazes are pretty useless more often than not. I've cut 2 in the list below, maybe all 3 to fit a single Extraction?

-1 Spell Pierce
-2 Force of Will
-2 Daze
+1 Darkblast
+2 Deathmark
+2 Pernicious Deed

vs Goblins

I tend to do very badly against Goblins and I'm really unsure of how I should side against the deck. Stifles seem useful against some of the things Goblins throw up so I'm keeping those and have shaved a couple of counters for what I think will help. Would it be better to use Surgical Extraction in place of Edict? Or perhaps cut more counters for both Edict & Extraction?

-3 Spell Pierce
-1 Force of Will
-1 Daze
+1 Darkblast
+2 Pernicious Deed
+2 Diabolic Edict / Surgical Extraction


vs Dredge / Reanimator

Against Reanimator, I figure I'm better off extracting enablers like Exhume, Reanimate etc. instead of using Diabolic Edict to kill their creatures. Against Dredge, I would extract the dredgers. Is this correct?

-2 Ghastly Demise
-3 Abrupt Decay
+3 Surgical Extraction
+2 Grafdigger's Cage


vs Canadian Threshold

Another match-up I'm unsure about. Everything in the main deck seems relevant - maybe cut 2 FOW for 2 Flusterstorms?


vs Combo

-3 Abrupt Decay
-2 Ghastly Demise
+2 Flusterstorm
+1 Sylvan Library
+2 Surgical Extraction



Some comments on your sideboarding:
- don't side out FoW in the Miracle MU, it's the only card who can counter Terminus. Spell pierce seems too good against control to get out too. It counters Sensei Top, Counterbalance, Entreat the Angels, Jace.
- surgical extraction isn't really needed against Show& Tell, because even if they play Intuition MD, they will side it out g2 and 3. Of course if you have too many things to side out, you can put it in to fill the blanks.
- Maverick & Gob MU: extraction effects aren't good against decks with a lot of redundancy, don't play it here. Spell Pierce is probably the first card to get out against Maverick. They are tough MUs.
- Reanimator: put in all the gravehate (cage + extraction) and the counters (flusterstorm) you have. Use your extractions on their creatures when they attempt to reanimate, that's when it's the more painful for them.
- Dredge: extract the Bridges if you can. They play 12 Dredgers, so by extracting 4 of them you will slow them down but they can still kill you quite easily. Extracting the Bridges is better imho, but sometimes you just can't when they play their Cabal Therapies efficiently. The Cage is the best hate you have in this MUs. I would side out your discard in this MU.
- Canadian Threshold: another tough MU, but Decay helps. Stifle is key. I tend to side out FoW in this MU against good players, because it's very risky to play it (and lose 2 cards), with all the Dazes and Spell Pierce they have.
- Combo (Storm I suppose) : you need counterspells, discard, and grave hate (for Past in Flames).

Hope it helps.

[Maximus]

Please let me know if I'm thinking along the right lines for each match-up and if I've made reasonable choices for both my Main deck and Sideboard.

I'm a fairly new player and I play this deck. For what it's worth, I like your list. I don't think it's so much about having the perfect list so much as knowing your strategy and playing to it with good technical play. But that's just me. Here's what I play, for a comparison:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
3 Ghastly Demise
1 Sylvan Library
1 Darkblast

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Deathmark
2 Spell Pierce
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Life from the Loam
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Darkblast
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Engineered Explosives

My most recent change was adding the 4 stifle over 3 spell pierce and a 2nd darkblast. While they were excellent, I find that stifles can be used creatively in the mid-game to set up unusual situations that give you marginal advantage. For example, if a player plays around them correctly in the early game, I save them for fetches later to ruin the utility on brainstorm. They're also good against other random things such as jace bounce, miracle triggers, ringleaders, maverick's entire deck, etc. It also helps that basically everyone else also cut them for spell pierce.

I use abrupt decay in the sideboard as kind of a more flexible krosan grip, it just solves things that I don't want to deal with. I usually find that I want to do more in a turn than play only a removal, so I like my removal to cost less than 2. It's also not really worth it to expose a green source unnecessarily, but the forest is probably also not worth the limitations it gives you which forces you to use a dual. I've been considering snuff out over ghastly demise, but it's hard to use snuff out defensively. Main deck darkblast has been excellent, I would highly recommend trying it.

I don't think you really need flusterstorm. The card is excellent, but I think we have a pretty good match against those decks anyway.

As for sideboarding, I find that I basically never touch the creature, draw, or colored mana sources. Instead, I think the best approach is to change your disruption package for whatever fits the best at the time or depending on how the player plays. I put wasteland into the disruption section.

As far as I can tell, Goblins and Maverick are the hardest matches for this deck. I'm not sure how to approach them either.

All my opinion, of course.

[rud]

Thanks a lot, guys. Really appreciate the input.

I added the basics because I kept getting Wasted all the time. And while being Wasted with basics in play was not as crippling at it was prior to their addition, I also felt that my gameplay had been stifled somewhat - there were occasions when I simply did not have the right balance of coloured mana to cast spells.

I'll take your advice though, cut the basics and revert to Duals exclusively (4 Seas, 2 Trops 1 Bayou), 8 Fetches & 4 Wastelands - 19 total. To cope against decks that play Wasteland, I'll add a Life of the Loam or two to the sideboard.

Before I added the basics, I was also running a combination of Hymns & IoK. Have any of you experimented with Hymns? They seem really powerful and I might try them again. Although I suppose pointed discard is a lot more reliable than Hymns which are a little hit and miss.

Thanks for sharing your list, Maximus. I like it too. Zand brought up the point about Ghastly Demise not working very well with Tombstalker. I see what he means. You're running three Demise, what do you think? In most of my games, I have managed to play Ghastly Demise before Tombstalker hit the table. Now I've seen Tombstalker described as a good "mid to late game" threat. How do you actually play it? If I draw it really early, I tend to shuffle it away. I guess that would extend the utility of cards like Ghastly Demise but I am not certain if this is always the correct play - there have been times when my Goyfs & Delvers were nowhere in sight and it was the early Tombstalker which helped me win the the game.

I'll up my Stifles to 4 as Zand suggested and as you have done. I've found them useful in the mid-game too. I remember cutting the fourth Ponder to fit in one of the basics - heh - back to 4 Ponders then.

Maximus & Dionykos - thanks for all the advice on sideboarding. That really helps.

My new list:

3 Tombstalker
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Ghastly Demise
2 Snuff Out
1 Darkblast

4 Ponder
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize

2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Underground Sea
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

SB: 1 Diabolic Edict
SB: 2 Pernicious Deed
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 2 Deathmark
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction


BTW, what do you all make of Ryan Phraner's version of TA? He came in 3rd at the SCG Legacy Open, Providence.

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9270&iddeck=67670

A lot more lands - including basics, more creatures, 2 Jace, more discard, less counters.

[Vandalize]

As far as I can tell, Goblins and Maverick are the hardest matches for this deck. I'm not sure how to approach them either.

Engineered Plague for Goblins.
Virtue's Ruin or Perish for Maverick.

Sweepers is what you need

[dionykos]

Your MD looks good now.

For your manabase: don't forget you can stifle your opponent's wasteland. And if your meta is infested with wasteland, you can go to 20 lands. Life from the Loam helps a bit in Tempo MUs, but it's slow.

For Hymn: usually people play either pointed discard or hymn, not both. I guess the main two reasons are the blue count for FoW and the fact that you can't brainstorm away all the dead discard if you play too many.

For Tombstalker: Personally I love it, it comes into play much more quickly than non-TA players think. And it's our biggest threat (where Delver is the fastest). And honnestly, it's really not hard to cast 2 per games.

Your sideboard: submerge is missing, most Tempo build (TA or TT) play 2 to 4. The cardfits perfectly in a Tempo strategy: race your opponent. Here it slows down your opponent for free, without doing any card disadvantage. I would play that over Deathmark.

Now for Ryan Phraner's list: it's a more control build, with more lands and slower threats, featuring some tempo guests like Delver. For me it's not a Tempo build. It doesn't mean it's not good, it's just a different strategy. Dark Confidant and Snapcaster aren't exactly big threats (in the sense of killing fast), they're control pieces. It's ok to have some, but so many turns your deck into a slower and more controly deck. And honnestly, I would rather play a proper BUG control/aggro-control build (no Tempo cards like Delver), or stick with a Tempo version. That's just me, it may very well be due to my lack of experience with BUG control builds.

[Maximus]

Thanks a lot, guys. Really appreciate the input.

I added the basics because I kept getting Wasted all the time. And while being Wasted with basics in play was not as crippling at it was prior to their addition, I also felt that my gameplay had been stifled somewhat - there were occasions when I simply did not have the right balance of coloured mana to cast spells.

I'll take your advice though, cut the basics and revert to Duals exclusively (4 Seas, 2 Trops 1 Bayou), 8 Fetches & 4 Wastelands - 19 total. To cope against decks that play Wasteland, I'll add a Life of the Loam or two to the sideboard.

Before I added the basics, I was also running a combination of Hymns & IoK. Have any of you experimented with Hymns? They seem really powerful and I might try them again. Although I suppose pointed discard is a lot more reliable than Hymns which are a little hit and miss.

Thanks for sharing your list, Maximus. I like it too. Zand brought up the point about Ghastly Demise not working very well with Tombstalker. I see what he means. You're running three Demise, what do you think? In most of my games, I have managed to play Ghastly Demise before Tombstalker hit the table. Now I've seen Tombstalker described as a good "mid to late game" threat. How do you actually play it? If I draw it really early, I tend to shuffle it away. I guess that would extend the utility of cards like Ghastly Demise but I am not certain if this is always the correct play - there have been times when my Goyfs & Delvers were nowhere in sight and it was the early Tombstalker which helped me win the the game.

I'll up my Stifles to 4 as Zand suggested and as you have done. I've found them useful in the mid-game too. I remember cutting the fourth Ponder to fit in one of the basics - heh - back to 4 Ponders then.

Maximus & Dionykos - thanks for all the advice on sideboarding. That really helps.

My new list:

3 Tombstalker
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Ghastly Demise
2 Snuff Out
1 Darkblast

4 Ponder
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize

2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Underground Sea
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

SB: 1 Diabolic Edict
SB: 2 Pernicious Deed
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 2 Deathmark
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction


BTW, what do you all make of Ryan Phraner's version of TA? He came in 3rd at the SCG Legacy Open, Providence.

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9270&iddeck=67670

A lot more lands - including basics, more creatures, 2 Jace, more discard, less counters.

Usually the game state comes down to a situation where you want to trade with the opponent or you just want to race them outright, so the anti-synergy between Ghastly Demise and Tombstalker rarely seems to be a problem because you can clearly choose one or the other. It still comes up, but it pretty much never bothers me. I play against a disproportionate amount of Knight of the Reliquary decks, so if it was actually problematic it should have been obvious by now. I'm not citing anything vague or meaningless like play style or making hard reads either, it's just...not that bad really.

Why do you have the Sylvan Library in your sideboard, and when do you bring it in?

I don't like Submerge in the sideboard. I tried it, but sometimes in Legacy you get to these board states where the game stalls out and you're both in draw mode and of course one of you will get something eventually, and then you don't have anything and your opponent isn't bad enough to give up a shuffle effect and you'll wish you had a real removal. Submerge is best in decks without black or white because they don't have real removal. This is not our problem.

[rud]

Dionykos, I'll give Submerge a go. I thought the 'tap-out' versions played more discard which included a combination of Hymns + IoK/Thoughtseize minus the Stifles. How would you tweak my MD if I dropped the Stifles? I'd like to experiment with that too. Maybe -4 Stifles, +2 Spell Pierce with a total of 6 discard? Not sure of what the combination should be like - 4 Hymns, 2 Thoughtseize maybe?


Why do you have the Sylvan Library in your sideboard, and when do you bring it in?

I would have brought the Library in against Control and possibly Combo for better card selection / filtering. Although your question has prompted me ask myself why I wouldn't want the ability to dig for what I need against every other match-up anyway. I think I'll include the Library in the Maindeck - maybe cut a Daze for it.

[dionykos]

Dionykos, I'll give Submerge a go. I thought the 'tap-out' versions played more discard which included a combination of Hymns + IoK/Thoughtseize minus the Stifles. How would you tweak my MD if I dropped the Stifles? I'd like to experiment with that too. Maybe -4 Stifles, +2 Spell Pierce with a total of 6 discard? Not sure of what the combination should be like - 4 Hymns, 2 Thoughtseize maybe?

I would have brought the Library in against Control and possibly Combo for better card selection / filtering. Although your question has prompted me ask myself why I wouldn't want the ability to dig for what I need against every other match-up anyway. I think I'll include the Library in the Maindeck - maybe cut a Daze for it.

Imho if you drop Stifle, you need to go to 20 lands. Then you can put your library MD; I like the card, but it's a bit slow so I always found it awkward in Tempo builds (of course it's very good against control decks). That only gives room for 2 cards, so you can try 4 Hymn and 2 Thoughtseize as you suggested. I have seen builds with 4 Hymn and 2 Thoughtseize/Iok indeed, but in a fast meta I like Thoughtseize/IoK more. And it's also "faster" in a Tempo deck. Of course if you play against a lot of control decks, I suppose Hymn is ok. An alternative is to play more board control with additional Abrupt decays (that's what I'm testing now, I'm still unsure about the number I want to play MD, but I doubt it will be less than 3). Of course in this case you need to have Spell Pierce in sideboard.

As for Daze, I don't think cutting them is a good idea, the card is really amazing when we put pressure, so perfect in Tempo builds.

[Mark Sun]

Engineered Plague for Goblins.
Virtue's Ruin or Perish for Maverick.

Sweepers is what you need

Not to nitpick but I have always believed that generating card advantage or stronger card quality is the way to beat those types of decks. It does happen that Plague/Sweepers will do that. I don't necessarily think Plague is necessary against Goblins as you should have access to discard, Stifle, and x/5 creatures, but that is one opinion. Having access to a card like Darkblast can be fine.



Your sideboard: submerge is missing, most Tempo build (TA or TT) play 2 to 4. The cardfits perfectly in a Tempo strategy: race your opponent. Here it slows down your opponent for free, without doing any card disadvantage. I would play that over Deathmark.

Submerge is fine but can be played around. I have not played it in Team America for a while, and I don't think it's what you want to be doing. If you're playing Delver, sure, but if you play the classic version with 4 Tarmogoyf/3-4 Tombstalker I can see not playing it.

[Deckerator]

Have you thought about playing with 3-4x Deathrite Shaman? This deck has so many instants/ sorceries that can be removed to deal 2 dmg every time or 2 life it will be needed.

Another question:
What is the best creature combination for this deck?
I think the best creatures are but how many?
Tombstalker
Tarmogoyf
Nimble Mongoose
Delver of Secrets


and now i thought about adding Deathrite Shaman. But don't know if its good enough. Your thoughts are welcome :)

[kingsey]

Unsure if anyone has asked or if this is the right place. Has anyone cut green ran and creature base of delver, stalker, and clique with red burn backup ? Similar to rug's ?

[Zand]

Unsure if anyone has asked or if this is the right place. Has anyone cut green ran and creature base of delver, stalker, and clique with red burn backup ? Similar to rug's ?

Yep, check out the Team Grixis thread in the new and in development forum

[dionykos]

Submerge is fine but can be played around. I have not played it in Team America for a while, and I don't think it's what you want to be doing. If you're playing Delver, sure, but if you play the classic version with 4 Tarmogoyf/3-4 Tombstalker I can see not playing it.

Sure, I'm answering the questions about his build where the creatures are 4 Delver, 4 Goyf, 3 Tombstalker. So we agree, Submerge is good here.

Tbh, I'm not sure it's a good idea to go back to a build with Goyf/Tombstalker only. Delver is so good for Aggro/Tempo, and the triplet Delver/Goyf/Stalker really gives options : a fast guy, a solid guy on the ground, a big 5/5 in the air. Just my opinion, I don't have much experience with builds that don't play Delver.

[Bryant Cook]

I top 4'd yesterday's Jupiter Games event with this deck, expect a report tomorrow.

[Shaka1333]

Have you tried this version ? If yes, what do you think about it ?

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=3565
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=3564&d=221519

A win and a Top8 in a row, in two big french Legacy event ... must be good, just saying.

[colo]

I finished 4th (4-1, though I conceded against 12Post-Eldrazi when we were at a 1-1-1 draw) at a minor local event yesterday, winning a Flooded Strand. My list read as follows:

Mainboard:

3 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
4 Delver of Secrets

2 Abrupt Decay
2 Predict
3 Daze
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle

1 Darkblast
1 Dismember
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek

2 Sylvan Library

2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland



Sideboard:

4 Leyline of the Void
3 Perish
2 Thoughtseize
2 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Bitterblossom


Match 1: Kobold Storm

Really not much to say here - he kinda brought a butter knife to a nuclear war. I remember countering two Glimpse of Nature over the course of two games, and Decaying a Signal Pest once time as he went full-on aggro with it accompanied by Ornithopter and Memnite. A Tombstalker beat him down after that both games. I don't even board a card.


Match 2: 12Post Turbo Eldrazi

It's the first time I've ever played this matchup, and I feel somewhat ill-prepared. At least I know that he'll be vulnerable to my Wastelands, though I did not know much about the deck until I actually started seeing my opponent slinging spells. Game goes for more than 30 minutes; I aggressivley draw cards from my early Sylvan Library to build up pressure. Tombstalker and Tarmogoyf eat away at his life totals steadily, but he tutors up lifegain via Glimmerpost. He manages to resolve the green Titan, which he also attacks with once (netting him 4 more lands); I deal with it by blocking with Tombstalker and shrinking the titan by Dismembering the crap out of it. When his life totals drop, he tutors up Glacial Chasm to nullify my offense. He hard-casts Emrakul later, attacks once, I sac 6 Lands (Wastelands were Needled, so I has some sticking around). I'm at 2 life and chump with Delver, he tutors for the draw-4-Eldrazi, and I concede (too late, some might argue - but I alwas felt it was rather close. If I just have had a timely Stifle...).

SB: Can't remember for sure - I hope it comes back :)

Game 2, the tempo plan works out and he's beaten down by two Tarmogoyfs while I use Wasteland and free counters to cripple his development.

Game 3 goes to turns. I barely remember what exactly transpired, but when we started the game, we had 7 minutes left on the clock. I concede for my opponent (who happens to be one of my favourite MtG-playing buddies - greetings, Philipp, if you happen to read this! ;)) as he thinks he'll have a good shot at winning the upcoming matches, unless he's paired against SnT (of which there were a few, as we were going to experience first hand). I wish him good luck for the tournament, and we're off to round three.

Match 3: Reanimator

Game 1 was kind of a weird beast once more; after some countering and all that, we arrived at a board state where a Tombstalker on my side faced a Sphing of the Steel Wind (powered by Animate Dead) on his. He attacked a few times, buffing up his life totals, until I finally managed to dig for Darkblast (I had a Sylvan Library out), which I used to feed the SPhinx into the maws of my Demon when he once more attacked. Unfortuntely, he began topdecking Reanimation spells after Tombstalker flew in two times, and he chose to Reanimate a Blazing Archon that he had binned a while earlier. I conceded a bit later, when he also had a Jin Gintaxias and Iona on board.

SB: +4 Leyline of the Void -??? (see above :))

Game 2, my opening seven greeted me with a Leyline, and the rest didn't look to bad either. After we agreed to keep and play, and I announced a pre-game effect, my opponent did not seem to happy about how this game started out - apparently, he did not board in any bounce. It was over rather quickly after that.

Game 3, I saw my opponent boarding in a few addtional cards (probably Echoing Truth, but I can't tell for sure). I drew a bad initial seven (only one Wasteland), which made a mulligan a no-brainer. The next six were the nuts, with a Leyline, Force + Pitch, Tarmogoyf and some land. Same story as before; my opponent was supposedly looking for bouncy action while ripping through his deck, while my monsters started devouring him alive.


Match 4: GW Maverick

I don't even remember if that went 2-1 or 2-0, so I ight be missing a whole game here... Sorry about my memory lapse (I'm really getting older, it seems :p), so if Hannes reads this - I think he's a Sourcer, too - he might add a few details about what exactly transpired.

Game 1, I win due to a Tombstalker he cannot handle while he durdles around a bit with a Knight of the Reliquary and friends. I kill him the turn before he would have killed me - flying still rules, right?

SB: +2 Thoughtseize, +3 Perish, -4 Force of Will, -1 Predict

Game 2, I open up with Perish in my starting seven, and draw a second one on my first draw step. I only have two lands in hand, and don't draw a third one until I'm at 12 life, and he has Scryb Ranger, KotR, Ooze and Dryad Arbor on Board. The nuke goes off, he bounces Arbor in response. He later said he wouldn't have expected Perish in my deck since I was also running Tarmogoyf. I Perish two more times that game, while he misses the opportunity to Waste me out of the game with KotR (I would have had Stifle protection up, but only once, of course). A huge, scary Demon mops up afterwards.


Match 5: Omiscience

My memory is a tad spotty here again, and I don't the course of the games very well, other than I had (and used) first turn discard both games. I also would have had the opportunity to cast a (my) first turn Delver the second game, but chose not to, and rather have a peek at his hand. We also fought a fierce counter-war over a Brainstorm my opponent played on his second or third turn, which left both of our hands pretty much depleted. He actually resolved a Show and Tell, dropping Omiscience a turn later (I dropped a glorious Tropical Island that I had used to pay for Daze, targeting his Brainstorm earlier), but without any gas to to something with it. I have lethal damage on board by that point.

SB: +2 Thoughtseize, +1 Clique, -1 Darkblast, -1 Dismember, -???



In closing, I have to say I was very happy with the deck's performance. I wonder how the Predicts would have worked out against for what I had originally been running them (dealing with Miracles and Sensei's Top decks), but I wasn't lucky enough to face one. I really liked Leyline, if you can find it in your first two hands (I'll let the statistics majors calculate the probability for that, but it's certainly > 60%) it's really nice in the tempo shell - once your opponent has finally handled the Leyline, you're probably far enough ahead to win - and if he doesn't handle it at all, you'll probably win anyway. I think I'll be adding a third Abrupt Decay, its versatility on top of the fact that it's uncounterable are really, really good, obviously. I never had problems getting the mana sources it requires online either.

[Hanni]

This deck seems much better positioned for the current metagame than RUG does. RUG is struggling against many of the DTB's... not so much as having unfavorable matchups, but nothing is really favorable.

The access to discard here improves the Miracles matchups slightly, and is a big improvement against SNT (especially with its double angle attack with countermagic). Abrupt Decay deals with Counterbalance out of Miracles, which is a huge hurdle for RUG. It also deals with Umezawa's Jitte and other nasties out of Maverick/Stoneblade/etc. Tombstalker dodges Counterbalance too, and it also flies over Mavericks guys where Mongoose normally gets stuck.

Overall, I'm definitely thinking this is the better choice between the two.

[Bryant Cook]

Article (http://jupitergames.info/articles/2012/51799/cooks-kitchen-nelc-10202012-4th-place)

[apistat_commander]

Article (http://jupitergames.info/articles/2012/51799/cooks-kitchen-nelc-10202012-4th-place)

Congrats on the finish.

Why have so few lists run Mongoose over Tombstalker? Stalker is much worse against StP effects and is much more of a lategame card, which isn't always advantageous when you are playing tempo. Having Decay/Demise to clear the way for your Mongeese seems pretty awesome.

[Bryant Cook]

Congrats on the finish.

Why have so few lists run Mongoose over Tombstalker? Stalker is much worse against StP effects and is much more of a lategame card, which isn't always advantageous when you are playing tempo. Having Decay/Demise to clear the way for your Mongeese seems pretty awesome.

I just wanted to play black "RUG" so I used Mongoose. It was incredible in a few circumstances, just ignoring removal and attacking through anyway.

[colo]

Why have so few lists run Mongoose over Tombstalker? Stalker is much worse against StP effects and is much more of a lategame card, which isn't always advantageous when you are playing tempo.

Stalker is much better against "Engineered Explosives effects" though, for instance. Both lose big time to Terminus (though Stalker requires a bigger initial investment). Stalker usually comes down turn 3 to 4, depending on how much you got to counter/play for free - that's early enough for a flying four-turn-clock in my book. Also, if playing Sylvan Library (which you should, imo), you can invest a potential +5 life from a StP'd Tombstalker in an extra card.

[apistat_commander]

Stalker is much better against "Engineered Explosives effects" though, for instance. Both lose big time to Terminus (though Stalker requires a bigger initial investment). Stalker usually comes down turn 3 to 4, depending on how much you got to counter/play for free - that's early enough for a flying four-turn-clock in my book. Also, if playing Sylvan Library (which you should, imo), you can invest a potential +5 life from a StP'd Tombstalker in an extra card.

Both are somewhat impacted by grave hate, though Goose is probably more vulnerable because you only need the one shot for Stalker. I wouldn't say that Goose "looses big time" to Terminus as you can simply draw and play it again after shuffling. Miracles doesn't really have a clock so you often have time to draw them again. Tombstalker is a much faster clock, but the shroud on Goose is relevant in many matchups. They are both mediocre against combo, but at least Goose can come down and leave mana free whereas you may just not get a chance to drop Stalker. However this deck may play differently enough from RUG that Stalker is simply the better threat for the deck. I am just theory crafting.

[kingsey]

How important is it to run a Bayou?

Could you get away with

8 fetches
3 seas
3 tropicals
1 island

[jamis]

How important is it to run a Bayou?

Could you get away with

8 fetches
3 seas
3 tropicals
1 island


I just started playing the deck recently, but I've found playing all three duals is very helpful against wasteland. I would definitely recommend it over playing a basic.

On 3 land, with bayou, you won't get color screwed by a single wasteland, but if you have U. Sea, Tropical Island, Island or even 2 of one dual, and one of the other, you lose access to a color. The deck's pretty strong against Wasteland, so I wouldn't worry about playing basics. If you notice in Bryant Cook's Round 5, Game one, his opponent's wastelands actually advance his strategy.

Then again, Bryant didn't play bayou, and it seemed to work out. Maybe if you play mongoose, you can go without it. In a list with Tombstalker, I'd definitely recommend 1 or 2.

[Maximus]

Then again, Bryant didn't play bayou, and it seemed to work out. Maybe if you play mongoose, you can go without it. In a list with Tombstalker, I'd definitely recommend 1 or 2.

Being on a deck with 3 tombstalker, 2 bayou is definitely too many. Bayou is your endgame land to lay down goyf and stalker, or to avoid getting wasted off of a color if you have a sea and a tropical already in play. Even then it's reasonable to search for a second sea over the bayou. Overall it's better to have the 9th fetch for an extra shuffle effect or to have an additional blue source in your opening 7 unless you're on temporal mastery and really hate early wastelands in which case an island is fine. If you're getting wasted early often, you can try to play more cautious with your green sources and it's usually less damaging than being color screwed out of your cantrips. Worst case situation you might be able to turn your green sources into an extra turn for flying damage.

[colo]

Extirpate on a wasted dual land can really kick TA in the nuts. That's why I prefer spreading my manabase a bit - I used to run 3 Underground Sea, 2 Tropical Island and 1 Bayou, but went to a 2-2-2 configuration, and did not regret it.

[kingsey]

Is anyone else leaving stifle out like cook ? I love the card and it really punishes risky hands kept by opponents and can lead to blow outs.

[Maximus]

Is anyone else leaving stifle out like cook ? I love the card and it really punishes risky hands kept by opponents and can lead to blow outs.

I left them in, but as a way to cover many random things more than to try to "get" people that get unlucky or play poorly. Honestly it's probably better to have a reliable way to interact in the early game with spell pierce/snare or something, you really have no reason to think that your unknown opponent will keep a risky hand, play into them poorly, or even necessarily use fetches.

I think it's better to assume at this point that you want to play stifle because it's useful against the popular decks more so than because it pushes your tempo plan directly in the form of land destruction. Because sometimes your opponent won't just give it to you, and sometimes you need the mana for early pressure and can't hold up blue for stifle, etc. Like if I have the correct mana sources in hand, a stifle, and a thoughtseize/delver/ponder, I'll usually hold up the blue mana first turn for the stifle, because turn 2 i can play the 1-drop and still hold up for stifle and force the opponent to play into my spells, or if they don't I can transition their lack of action into some offensive momentum by turn 3. Even looking at that theoretical situation, how often can you reasonably expect to get that line of play? More often, I open with 1 blue source so I just play the 1-drop immediately.

A lot of the decks for a while were running functionally off of just 1 land, and it's not realistic to try to shut those decks out of the game. It's also not really terrible to play other under-costed disruption. You're going to have to adapt your play to make best use of those spells anyway, so either option is probably fine. IMO use whatever looks the best against the decks that you expect to play against.

[B4nnar]

I'm also curious about creature combination in BUG tempo. Goyf/Delver - sure. However, I feel that double B for stalker is too much for tempo deck, and thats why I prefer mongoose. Also, I've been testing 2of snapy and it turned out that in tempo oriented BUG it's just too mana heavy card (you need at least 3 mana to do something with snapy). Stalker and mongoose (#2 stalker with snapy) doesn't work together well too. Last but not least, hows Bob doing in BUG? When I'm going for RUG shell (just R->B as in any BUG tempo) I feel like I want a threat, to kill an opponent as fast as I can and 2/1 doesn't get the purpose.

What are your thoughts about creature base? Is the RUG one excelent for us and should we stick with it? Like in Bryant Cook's article.

Edit: about threats (regarding bob): BUG doesn't own lightning bolts so we are not able to burn enemy down if able. By that, 12 creatures may not be enough.

[jamis]

I've been liking Tombstalker, and plan on sticking with it. By the time you gain threshold for Mongoose, you can also delve fully with Tombstalker, so I don't view it as being any slower. Of course, multiple early Mongoose should come online faster than multiple Tombstalker, but really this deck's graveyard fills up very quickly, so multiple Tombstalkers haven't been as big of an issue with me as it was when I played Eva Green.

It outclasses opposing Delvers and can shrink Goyf if needed, which helps against RUG, especially since they have to 2-for-1 themselves to deal with it preboard. I could see Mongoose being better against Miracle and Stoneblade. Tombstalker also won't get stuck on the ground like Mogoose can against Maverick. They've StP, but they also have to deal with Delver and Goyf, as well as fight through counterspells/discard, so I think the 7 fliers plus ability to nullify their removal should be more relevant than shroud in that match-up.

We lose the reach that RUG has with burn, so I think the extra power and evasion helps make up for that. Double black hasn't been a problem for me, but I've also been playing a 4-2-2-8 split with my land.

[B4nnar]

Stalker schrinks your goyf too, thats why I see de-synergy with rest of my creatures and I was always avoiding him in my decks. Nimble M's shroud helps too since legacy is format filled with ton of removal and StP is the backbone of it for sure. I might experiment with stalker as 2of.

Hows Ooze MD?

[apistat_commander]

Re: Stifle

I think Stifle is a great card and I do run it in RUG. However, I just don't know if there is the space for it in BUG. It doesn't have very good synergy with discard as you typically want to leave mana open early. Outside of hitting Wastelands and Fetches, you can typically handle most of the other things you would want to Stifle with Spell Pierce/Abrupt Decay. You are also increasing your amount of dead late game draws (you already have 4 discard) and you won't always have a Brainstorm to shuffle it away. I know that Stifle can randomly blow people out when hitting non-fetch things but to be honest it is really at it it's best in the early game.

I would love to see a list that finds a way to run Stifle in addition to everything else, but I think you just end up losing something somewhere. You are either cutting Spell Pierces, discard, or removal. The last two are the main reason you are playing BUG over RUG in the first place. For example, the BUG tempo list that came in 7th in the Jupiter Games NELC cut a Daze, a Pierce, a land, and a discard spell to fit in Stifle. Playing fewer than 4 Daze in Tempo is just asking for trouble and cutting down on land is harder for BUG because you run seven two drops instead of just 4 like RUG. If you are going down to less than four discard spells you might as well just play RUG and get the extra reach.

[colo]

I honestly cannot imagine playing TA without Stifle, ever. It's just so fricking versatile, and quasi-unique in what it does. Many players take their activated or triggered abilities for granted. Well, you can teach them to be more humble and thankful for what they (usually) get, _if_ you choose to let it resolve. Examples: Planeswalker abilities. Batterskull getting its pesky Germ attached. A Miracle-trigger waiting to resolve. That SDT activation that your opponent so desperately needs. KotR, Mother of Runes, Maze of Ith, Vial, ... The list goes on - add potentially backbreaking mana denial and the possibilities Stifle opens up against Wasteland to all that, and I think it's an auto-include. Keeping U open isn't that big of a deal if you don't restrict yourself to stifling Fetchlands alone, which is a bad choice in itself anyway.

Ad Tombstalker: As I said, it's a four-turn clock. Between opposing fetchlands and a few delver hits (before your opponent handles it), make that three or maybe even two turns. I'd wager it's about as easy to protect a Stalker for three turns as it is to protect a Mongoose for five, and that neglects the fact that Mongoose is much more easily blocked than Stalker. The latter just seals the deal much quicker and is less dependent on what's actually on the battlefield in order to succeed. The dissinergy with Tarmogoyf that's often cited isn't that big of a deal, your yard will mostly be filled with instants, sorceries and lands, of which most opposing decks will have at least two types in their yards themselves. The whole graveyard subject becomes less delicate once you start running something with Dredge - I choose Darkblast (yes, mainboard) because it's the bee's knees. Needless to say, you have to delve intelligently and sensibly if you have the chance to (3 mana available, and/or more than or equal to 6 cards in your graveyard). I think everyone can work out the details on how to do that, so I won't bore you with another paragraph about it.