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Goaswerfraiejen
10-21-2008, 05:01 PM
UPDATE (11/12/2009): I have written an entirely updated primer with a whole new list, and discussion of other lists. It is available in PDF format at http://freepdfhosting.com/779b4c8aaa.pdf


Please be warned that it's long--42 pages--but that you hardly need to read it all. Just use the "find" function to get where you want to go. For the current list, either click the link in the last update, or scroll down just below it.


UPDATE (10/12/2009): Latest list available here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=347579&postcount=83). Please bear with me until the new primer is up. It's done, but 41 pages long--so I'm trying to find the best way to post it. Alternately, the newest list is posted just below, before the start of the old primer.

Lands (18)

3 Tropical Island
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
1 Wasteland


Creatures (15)

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Shriekmaw or Fleshbag Marauder
1 Genesis
1 Gigapede
1 Eternal Witness


Spells (28)

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Intuition
3 Daze
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Snuff Out
3 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Raven's Crime
1 Life from the Loam


Sideboard (15)

3 Engineered Plague
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Hydroblast
2 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Blue Elemental Blast



OLD PRIMER:

This thing is so long that, unfortunately, I had to break it up into a few posts to get it up here. My apologies.

First things first: A great many thanks are in order for everyone who helped to make this deck into what it is today. I won’t name you all, but you know who you are, and without people like you to pick this deck up and run with it, there’s not much a guy like me can do. Thanks are also in order to Hanni for his help with this primer; this primer is very much a joint effort between us, but due to a rather busy schedule on his end, I’ve taken over the final editing and posting.

Finally, thank you for your patience--this primer has been necessary for some time now, and it’s been in the works for almost as long. I can say with certainty, however, that its quality is much improved for the wait, and it’s much more relevant to today’s metagame.

Also, it’s very long. For your ctrl+f convenience, here are the main headings:

1.) Deck History
2.) Decklists
-Goaswerfraiejen
-Hanni
3.) Deck Description
4.) Card Choices & Notable Exclusions
-The Manabase
-The Creatures
-The Spells
-The Sideboard
-Notable Exclusions
5.) Playing the Deck
-The Basics
-Using Intuition
-Post-Intuition
-The Element of Surprise
-Opening Hands
-Sample Hands and Analysis
-What to take away from these sample hands
-Dealing with Hate
6.) Matchup Analysis
7.) Results
-Alex Mack
-Michael Redford
-Anonymous
8.) Developmental Opportunities/Customizability
-UGR Intuition-Thresh
-UGR Late-Thresh
9.) Conclusion
1.) Deck History

We should begin by noting that Hanni has been working on a very similar deck concept since 2006 under the name of Aggro Dredge-A-Tog (DAT). Back then, he ran Wild Mongrel rather than Tarmogoyf (since it hadn’t yet been printed); it acted as a solid deterrent (trumping Werebears, particularly if you pitched Genesis/Wonder), and worked well with the excess lands generated by Loam. Obviously, by today’s standards, Mongrel is far less interesting, although my own early attempts made adequate use of the card. Since then, however, the deck has undertaken a fundamentally different direction that makes Mongrel a little less desirable.

Hanni’s deck also contained cantrips, countermagic/discard, and, most importantly, Intuition. Loam/Coliseum and Genesis/Wonder were also present, as well as Pernicious Deed. The basic concept was an aggro/control feel like Threshold combined with a (board) control feel like Landstill. Hanni has always been a huge fan of that sort of hybridization, and believes that it represents the obvious evolution of the format. The deck was shelved for quite some time due to rocky piloting, lack of a following, and the development of UWb Fish. And then, all of a sudden, Tarmogoyf was printed.

When Tarmogoyf was printed in April 2007, I quickly thought to make use of him in UGb Threshold ( http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5534) (which was virtually nonexistent at the time), and began working on developing that concept. It quickly became apparent, however, that I was opting for a rather different direction from everyone else who was trying to develop UGb Threshold, so I created a new thread for the deck. If you want to trace the evolution of the deck, the links are available at the very beginning of the last thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6230). Anyway, at that point, Hanni thought to revive Aggro DAT and so he started plugging into the new thread. The deck has gone through significant developmental changes since the start of even that last thread, and so the need for a new primer has become rather pressing.

Hanni has been a huge proponent of the deck, calling it the natural evolution of both Threshold and the format in general. Sadly, he and I lack the credibility of players like the Hatfields, David Gearhart, and company, and so it has proven difficult to garner the kind of attention that we feel the deck deserves. This deck has never really taken off in serious numbers, which is upsetting. Recently, the format has seen a number of Intuition/Loam decks pop up, but they have tended to lack focus and development. This thread, then, hopes to prove a comprehensive resource for just such development.

More recently, David Gearhart has designed a deck called It’s the Fear ( http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9724) (ITF), which is an excellent control deck that shares a number of similarities with UGB Intuition-Thresh. ITF is built further down the spectrum towards control, acting more like Landstill, but still incorporates a few Threshold elements. Which deck is better is therefore a metagame-dependent question, although we obviously prefer being closer to Threshold overall. ITF simply feels too slow for us. We also prefer the actual card-advantage that this deck generates over the virtual card-advantage generated by ITF.

Regardless, it is difficult to understand why this deck hasn’t been given much attention at all over the last few years. It’s rather puzzling. Hopefully this primer will change that a little.


2.) Decklists


Goaswerfraiejen:

Lands (18)

3 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Wasteland


Creatures (16)

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Shriekmaw
1 Wonder
1 Genesis
1 Gigapede
1 Eternal Witness
1 Stinkweed Imp


Spells (26)

3 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Thoughtseize
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Raven's Crime


Sideboard (15)

4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip
3 Crime/Punishment
1 Worm Harvest / Gaea’s Blessing (open metagame slot)





Hanni:

Lands (19)

4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Wasteland


Creatures (14)

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Gigapede
3 Shriekmaw
1 Wonder
1 Genesis


Spells (27)

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
3 Pernicious Deed


Sideboard (15)

3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Duress
4 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Stinkweed Imp

Goaswerfraiejen
10-21-2008, 05:20 PM
3.) Deck Description

The deck often plays out like U/G/b Threshold. Between the seven 1cc cantrips, Mongoose, ‘Goyf, FoW, Daze, Thoughtseize, and Shriekmaw (instead of Smother), a lot of games are won just playing the Threshold gameplan.

But the deck isn’t just Threshold; instead of running Counter-Top (and sometimes Dark Confidant), it runs Intuition (+ engines) and Deed. Hence the name: Intuition-Thresh.

The biggest gripe that we’ve always had against Counter-Top (and by no means are we saying that the Counter-Top lock isn’t extremely good) is that often it doesn’t bring you back when you’re behind; Deed, however, does. Now, you can run Deed alongside Counterbalance like ITF ( http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9724) does, but we don’t like the lack of synergy between the two cards and don’t feel that Counterbalance is even necessary in this deck with all of the recursion and card-advantage that it already generates. Threshold uses Counter-Top as a mid-late-game engine to win the game by locking the opponent out (and we don’t mean that it can’t assemble it early); Threshold therefore relies on Counter-Top to out-advantage the opponent if the game goes to the middle or late stages. This deck, on the other hand, uses recursion, Deed, and other card-advantage engines instead to gain the same kind of advantage(s) while putting considerable pressure on the opponent.

With Intuition (+ engines) and Deed, the deck can easily shift from playing an aggro/control gameplan to a control gameplan. The deck now has the ability to wipe the entire board clean (sans lands or planeswalkers) with Deed. It also has the ability to recur powerful tools to gain control over the game, which is set up (most of the time) by Intuition. Life from the Loam ensures the deck can make land drops every turn (and does so by providing card-advantage, 1G for +2 CA--more than that if you’ve developed your position enough to use your graveyard as a resource). Loam/Wasteland can sometimes end games (or lock the opponent out), and Genesis provides card-advantage as well, giving the deck recurring beaters and recurring removal (with Shriekmaw). Gigapede is an alternate win condition that can recur himself and is almost impossible to answer.

The most common 1st Intuition pile to grab is Loam/Coliseum/Genesis. Loam grants consistent land drops, Coliseum gets Genesis in the bin (and can be used as a draw engine later if necessary), and Genesis can start recurring creatures. If a Wasteland lock has the potential to win the game (e.g. against Landstill), it’s sometimes worth grabbing Loam/Wasteland/Raven’s Crime or Loam/Wasteland/Gigapede. If flying critters will win you the game, a Wonder-pile is what you want to grab: either Loam/Gigapede/Wonder, Genesis/Wonder/Gigapede, or Loam/Raven’s Crime/Wonder--we’ll discuss Intuition piles later, but they’re obviously going to be extremely dependent on the current game state. The second Intuition that you cast, should you have the opportunity to do so (or need to), should grab remaining toolbox cards that can be used in conjunction with recursion, such as Shriekmaw--in other words, whatever is not currently available.

Playing 3+cc spells like Intuition, Deed, and Gigapede generally pushes this deck out of consistent Counterbalance range. Deed is especially strong at destroying opposing Counterbalances, since it not only can be played through Counterbalance, but it also removes any creatures (‘Goyfs!) that the opponent has in play. As far as Threshold variants are concerned, this represents a serious threat to their already meagre resources.

There is so much synergy within the deck itself that it’s insane. The deck can mould itself to almost any situation and has the tools, between maindeck and sideboard, to answer just about any situation. Its fast Threshold-esque gameplan gives it the speed to keep up with (and disrupt) fast decks, especially combo. Its slow and controlling gameplan gives it the ability to box in and out-advantage slower aggro decks, other aggro/control decks, and even other control decks, and allows the deck to transition very well from the early to the late game. This hybridization allows it to switch roles when necessary to unbalance the opponent and dominate the game.

Finally, unlike ITF, we have chosen not to splash white as a fourth colour for Swords to Plowshares because we don’t feel that bastardizing the manabase is worth it at all, especially considering that Shriekmaw is the superior (and entirely adequate) removal option for this deck.

NOTES:


Q: There are currently lands, creatures, and sorceries in both players' graveyards, so my Tarmogoyf is 3/4. What happens when it gets targeted by Sudden Death?

A: You will have one fairly lethargic, but living, Tarmogoyf.

State-based effects—those wonderful bits of rules that do things like cause you to lose the game, clean up Auras that are no longer attached to anything, and destroy creatures with lethal damage—also whisk away creatures with 0 toughness to the appropriate graveyard. However, SBEs aren't checked during the resolution of a spell or ability, but instead wait until after they've completely finished resolving and a player would gain priority again.

The last part of a spell's resolution is putting it into its owner's graveyard. Tarmogoyf is constantly rummaging around in people's graveyards trying to figure out how powerful it is (good thing it has eight fingers, otherwise it might have trouble with that). So by the time state-based effects are checked, the Sudden Death is already in its owner's graveyard and the Tarmogoyf has already gotten the go-ahead to pump itself up. The end result will be a 0/1 Tarmogoyf until the cleanup step, at which time it becomes a 4/5 again.

I can guarantee that such situations will come up, and they can really decide the game.



4.) Card Choices & Notable Exclusions

The Manabase

The deck runs a land-base similar to Threshold’s. If you look to Hanni’s list, you’ll see a much closer correspondence: 8 fetchlands, 5 nonbasics, and 4 basics. Regardless of your configuration, you probably don’t want to stray too far, for fear of opening yourself even more to hate. Coliseum and Wasteland are included to complement Life from the Loam.

Cephalid Coliseum functions as a discard outlet for Genesis/Wonder, can be used as a draw engine with Loam, and also fills the graveyard up (which can be beneficial to the deck). Coliseum does not need to be used every turn; it doesn’t even need to be used at all after discarding Genesis/Wonder, so be careful. It can sometimes be good to use it with Loam as a draw engine but make sure that you have enough lands in play before wasting land drops.

Wasteland is in here solely for the occasional Waste-locks with Loam that win the game outright, as well as targeted assaults on recursion engines (Academy Ruins, Volrath’s Stronghold, etc.) and manlands (Mishra’s Factory, Mutavault, etc.). Waste-locks are (obviously) especially strong against multi-coloured control decks. 18-19 lands (erring on the side of 19 is ideal) seems like the perfect number in testing for this deck’s curve; Loam enables the deck to consistently hit land drops after the third turn once the engines are online.


The Creatures

Nimble Mongoose and Tarmogoyf: These are the core aggro package and function the same as they would in normal Threshold. They improve the early game by allowing the deck to be aggressive against some decks (like combo) and defensive against other decks (like fast aggro). Later on, their low curves work really well with Genesis recursion. Mongoose being immune to most removal makes it an excellent candidate for Genesis recursion.

Gigapede: This guy acts as a finisher the same way that Mystic Enforcer does in Threshold, but is only needed as a one-of because of Intuition. Gigapede is nearly impossible to answer, and therein lies its value: it recurs itself (giving the deck some resilience to Extirpate on Genesis), can be used to discard Genesis or Wonder, is untargetable, cannot be blown up by EE (unless the opponent has access to all 5 colours), is really high up for Deed range, and is large at 6/1 (usually trades with ‘Goyfs). Yes, it can be chump-blocked by Mogg Fanatic--that criticism has been made before, but is, in fact, irrelevant because we run Wonder to give it--and everything else--the ability to fly overhead. Barring a large number of chump blockers, Gigapede’s recursion means that it will eventually punch through. Finally, Gigapede almost always powers through Counterbalance (Force of Will and Shriekmaw are the only 5cc cards that I can think of that might see play in decks with Counterbalance), and these characteristics combine to make it strong against other control decks.

Shriekmaw: Phenomenal removal. 2cc is the same as other typical black removal: it removes Goyfs (which is the biggest target for the removal), and (like Gigapede) almost always powers through an opposing Counterbalance. The main reason to run at least one Shriekmaw is the ability to recur it with Genesis, wiping out an opponent’s army step by step. This is, in fact, the main reason to run Shriekmaw as the deck’s primary removal option. You want more than one so that you need not be afraid of hardcasting one at some point in time. In this way, Shriekmaw can be a source of card-advantage similar to Flametongue Kavu in its heyday: for five mana, you destroy an opponent’s creature and get a 3/2 with evasion. The only creatures that Shriekmaw cannot answer are black creatures, and this deck seldom needs to worry much about those because it also has Deed, and opposing Dark Confidants quickly prove suicidal. Tombstalker is the major exception to this rule, and a difficult threat for the deck to deal with pre-board short of blocking with something that flies or tossing out Stinkweed Imp.

Stinkweed Imp: The lone Stinkweed Imp answers what Deed, Crime/Punishment, and Shriekmaw can’t: Tombstalker. Although Tombstalker is the main reason for its inclusion, it can be used for just about any matchup. It is recurrable removal without Genesis, and can answer both black and artifact creatures. Its recursion comes from Dredge, which is actually a bonus for this deck, so it is a very strong candidate for a single slot, either in the main deck or the sideboard.

Genesis: The core recursion card used by the deck. Once in the graveyard, it provides card-advantage every turn and allows the deck to do nasty things. It makes Deed that much stronger and the board advantage it creates after just several turns is huge. Genesis recursion is extremely hard for many decks to answer game one. In this deck, we feel that the card advantage (and ability to hardcast it past a Counterbalance) combine to make Genesis a superior option (for us) to Volrath’s Stronghold.

Wonder: Gives the deck flying, which can be invaluable in many matchups. Wonder easily breaks things like Goyf stalemates, getting Mongooses over larger guys, and getting Gigapede over chump-blockers like Mogg Fanatic. Overall, we see no reason not to include it.


The Spells

Brainstorm and Ponder: Seven cantrips give the deck increased consistency, whether it be early mana stabilization, digging for relevant cards (like Intuition), or fuelling the Threshold gameplan (cards in the graveyard, filtering useless cards for useful ones). There is absolutely no reason not to run them in here. Additional cantrips are unnecessary because Intuition + engines take their place. I have chosen to sacrifice a fourth Brainstorm for two reasons: first, because I have opted to run Eternal Witness, and second, because Brainstorm is more expendable than Ponder (Ponder’s shuffling ability is crucial, especially for early land drops). It’s a controversial move, but it doesn’t really pose any problems for the deck—and, obviously, it’s hardly a necessity. If you’re more comfortable with a redundant cantrip than Eternal Witness’ card-advantage (and late-game recursion), that’s fine too.

Intuition: The core of the deck outside of the Threshold gameplan, Intuition enables the deck’s engines to come online, allowing the player to either pursue a more aggressive gameplan or shift into control mode. It enables consistent land drops via Loam, card-advantage via Loam and Genesis, and so on. Essentially, it provides a quick response to just about any situation.

Life from the Loam: Another of the deck’s engines, albeit a secondary one. It enables consistent land drops every turn whilst creating card-advantage (since the deck uses the graveyard as a toolbox as much as anything else). The ability to recur Wasteland is nasty against some decks, while Cephalid Coliseum is a strong draw engine for the late-game. There is no reason to not run Loam (as a 1-of) in a deck running Intuition.

Daze: Since this is an aggro/control deck rather than slower control, Daze is a lot better for us than Counterspell. The deck needs the seven counterspells in order to dominate the early game, and to compete against combo. Nevertheless, this is one of the weaker slots in the deck, and I wouldn’t mind an alternative of some sort.

Thoughtseize: Thoughtseize is extremely strong at what it does. 1cc proactive spot removal for any non-land card is obviously extremely efficient; it answers anything problematic from Tarmogoyf to Humility. The ability to see the opponent’s hand is invaluable, especially in a large tournament setting. The -2 life loss is going to be irrelevant for the most part; nevertheless, I have chosen to run only three because the card becomes much less useful in the late game, and that life loss likewise starts to add up. I’ve replaced the fourth copy with a single Raven’s Crime, whose utility is described below.

Pernicious Deed: In this deck, Deed’s power level is increased with the inclusion of Genesis and Gigapede which grant you sickening inevitability. Pernicious Deed itself is easily one of the strongest cards in the format; that much goes without saying. As mentioned before, it can easily bring the game back from behind, particularly in conjunction with Genesis and Gigapede. The ability to answer basically everything after it’s already resolved (proactively rather than reactively—counterspells are great, but you have to have them in your hand at the appropriate time, making them much more conditional) is nutty, and the ability to come back from behind by wiping the board clear is very powerful. The fact this deck can wipe the board clean with Deed and then recur creatures immediately makes for amazing synergy, and terrifying inevitability.

Raven’s Crime: Raven’s Crime is here largely because it makes for a strong Intuition pile against control (Loam/Wasteland/Raven’s Crime), and because it’s a stronger disruption option than Thoughtseize in the late game (in large part due to its recursion).


The Sideboard

Before I begin with the sideboard, I’d like to say that this is my own personal sideboard and that the sideboards are going to differ based on player and metagame.

Blue Elemental Blast: This is a recent addition for us both. I haven't had significant issues with Goblins or Dragon Stompy, but the Blue Elemental Blasts improve those matchups as well as Burn and Sligh. The ability to also hit decks like TES and Belcher is just an additional bonus.

Krosan Grip answers problematic artifacts/enchantments, like Counterbalance, and cannot be responded to. If Extirpate isn’t already an example of how strong Split Second is, Grip proves it.

Crime/Punishment: This card comes in as additional removal and answers a number of problems. From Goblin and Zombie tokens to Counterbalances and Tarmogoyfs, it can answer. It has problems against higher casting costs, but the deck has other cards to handle stuff like that. The main reasons why I run this over Engineered Explosives are that 1.) It has a higher overall range of targets, and 2.) It is not susceptible to Stifle-effects, making it a good replacement for Deed, and finally 3.) It’s less susceptible to Counterbalance.

Extirpate: This card’s primary use is against other Loam-based decks, obviously. The card has nice synergy with the deck’s other elements, particularly when it comes to increasing our removal options and allowing us to conserve some Deeds/Shriekmaws. It’s also proven useful against recurring Factories (à la Landstill), Burn decks, and decks with few win conditions in general. While it’s not as strong as Crypt as graveyard hate, it also performs a useful function in that department. If you encounter fewer Loam-based decks in your metagame, however, it may be worth replacing with something else. Likewise, Tormod’s Crypt is obviously a better choice if you’re going to be facing Ichorid.

Worm Harvest: This card is primarily a foil against Humility, which can otherwise prove slightly troublesome. Hardly a necessary slot, but an important one in my metagame.



Notable Exclusions:

Darkblast: Good card, but just not really relevant enough in the format to run as removal. I can see justifying it as a one-of to hit weenies (Goblins!) and Confidants, but it’s really hard to justify it in the larger quantities necessary to make it relevant against those cards. It also doesn’t really address problems like Tombstalker.

Dark Confidant:[/i] It’s a virtually useless beater, and we already have good sources of card advantage. Plus, with mana costs ranging from three to five, the life loss would just be too significant.

Volrath’s Stronghold: This is a decent replacement for Genesis, but in this deck Genesis generates greater card advantage, and can be hardcast if necessary. Yes, Stronghold is slightly stronger against grave-hate, but let’s be fair: your only consistent way of getting it out will be through Intuition-Loam, and that makes you just as vulnerable to graveyard hate. Plus, colourless mana isn’t ideal in this deck anyway. It’s a different kind of vulnerability, but we feel that Genesis is generally a better choice for us overall. It’s also worth noting that Stronghold is vulnerable to Pithing Needle (although that’s a little less relevant today than it was even a year ago), and that you seldom have three mana open at the end of your turn, at least early on. Paying it in your upkeep sucks, but it doesn’t cost you a draw (like a land draw), and it leaves you the option to Dredge your draw. Come to think of it, I should edit that last one into the Primer.

[b]Counterbalance: Different gameplan altogether. It also lacks synergy with Deed.

Psychatog: Great card, but the other creatures in here are already threatening enough on their own. Besides which, Psychatog requires a large commitment to swing for the win; otherwise, swinging for a piddly one doesn’t cut it.

Tombstalker: It might be worth running a few of these, but the creatures are threatening enough as is. Besides, it’s not very synergistic with the current creature base, meaning it would have to be redone completely. It might be interesting to pursue, Team America (see below for a link)-style, however.

Academy Ruins: Too cutesy and win-more. Mana issues also make it a prohibitive choice.

Lonely Sandbar/cycle lands: Not useful enough. Besides which, they create mana problems.

Goaswerfraiejen
10-21-2008, 05:21 PM
5.) Playing the deck:

The Basics

The deck is not a difficult one to pick up if you’re familiar with the format, especially with Threshold. Generally, the early game should be played Threshold-style, with priority going to cantrips and early threats. If your hand is more controlling, however, there is no problem going that route early on before switching gears. But let’s begin at the beginning.

The deck’s main difference from Threshold stems from its late-game plan, and its use of the graveyard. Current builds of threshold attempt to control the late-game through permission-tactics (Counterbalance-lock) and card-advantage from Sensei’s Divining Top. This element is noticeably lacking in Inuition-Thresh: instead, we attempt to use faster card-advantage engines (I’m referring here to Loam, Intuition, and Coliseum) in order to better manipulate our resources (particularly the graveyard) and force a win through sheer inevitability. Countering everything your opponent casts is conceivable, and clearly it works well (see Threshold’s success, as well as ITF’s); this is a reactive control plan, however. Intuition-Thresh, on the other hand, attempts to force the opponent into the reactive role by applying unrelenting pressure through recursion and pro-active “counterspells” (i.e. a sweeper like Deed). Due to a relatively high curve, the deck succeeds in evading opposing Counterbalances, and thus can apply the same gameplan in such situations. Why sit back and look for threats that are few and far between when you could just keep casting threats over and over again each turn? Such is the deck’s attitude towards the game.


Using Intuition

Once you have the ability to cast Intuition, the game changes tone fundamentally. Until you get an Intuition, you can be content to play Threshold-style and run your more frequent threats into your opponent aggro-style. Once you can cast Intuition, however, it becomes necessary for you to address the game-state past, present, and future: what deck is your opponent playing, how are his next few turns likely to play out, and what can you grab to overwhelm him now while setting yourself up for a strong control position should something go wrong/death not come as quickly as it’s desired? These are the sorts of assessments that need to be made. This means that your Intuition piles are going to be very fluid, and there’s no formulaic pile that we can give you that you can apply without regard for the game state.

Our first pile tends to consist of Loam/Coliseum/Genesis. This is a very strong first pile, and useful at just about any stage of the game. What should be noted so that you can tailor your own Intuition piles is how it fulfills a number of different roles:

1.) It sets up your mid- and late-games by giving Genesis-based recursion and card-advantage, as well as the ability to draw three a turn when necessary.
2.) Defensively, it helps to protect you from attacks on your manabase (thanks to Loam, obviously).
3.) You can immediately begin recurring your creatures (a dead Mongoose, for example, or a countered Tarmogoyf), thus forcing your opponent into a reactive backpedal in an attempt to deal with the renewed onslaught.
4.) You gain the ability to dredge Loam early on, thus filling your graveyard with the toolbox answers and threats you’ll be needing.

The most important thing about this kind of pile--obviously--is that you get what you want and need regardless of what the opponent chooses. Other such piles include Gigapede/Wonder/Genesis, triple-FoW or Deed, or two of a card and Eternal Witness (depending on your build), etc. You generally want to grab piles with (at worst) a next-turn return of some sort, preferably one whose effect will over the course of the game will prove cumulatively beneficial.

With one Raven’s Crime, our Intuition pile options become still more diversified: a particularly vulnerable opponent might mean that Loam/Wasteland/Raven’s Crime is the best available choice. If your opponent has slow mana development for one reason or another--bad hand, bad manabase, bad luck, etc.--then this is the pile that you want the most, since it will allow you to lock him out with ease. You might have no business winning that game, but this pile will allow you to exacerbate what is, for your opponent, an already less-than-ideal situation.

Alternately, if you have an incarnation in your hand that needs to get discarded, you could (for example) grab Raven’s Crime/Life from the Loam/Eternal Witness (or whatever else--Wasteland, possibly, or Coliseum) to both ensure that you can discard the incarnation, and have late-game returns via Witness recursion, or even dredging into your second incarnation complete with Coliseum-draws on demand.

The reality is that there can be no standard pile that we can tell you to grab, because what’s in your hand and the game state are going to generate too many unique situations to account for. Generally, however, it’s safe to say that your first pile will (usually) want to set up Genesis recursion in some way. Whether you choose the Gigapede, Raven’s Crime, or Coliseum routes to achieve that is entirely up to you, and the peculiarities of the situation in which you find yourself.


Post-Intuition

From there on in, playing the deck should be fairly self-evident; clear the board with recurring removal, beat down with large and often flying critters, etc. In the late-game, you can start recurring Cephalid Coliseum to cycle through answers and threats as quickly as possible. Because you’re dredging Loam, you gain graveyard card-advantage (that is to say, you gain recursion options, maybe even put a Wonder into the pile) while drawing a further three (or dredging three [or five, with Stinkweed Imp] more and drawing two, if you’re looking for Wonder for example) cards; massive card-advantage, and usually more than enough to get what you need.


The Element of Surprise

One of the biggest advantages of playing a hybrid deck is that you can masquerade as one of the hybridized decks until it suits you to do otherwise. In this case, pretending to be a Threshold deck is an enormous advantage, particularly in the first game. Often, for example, an opponent will chump block a 1/1 Mongoose (or trade with any other creature) with his or her own Mongoose, Dark Confidant, early Nantuko Shade, etc., thinking that your resources are as limited as Threshold’s. Alternately, an early Engineered Explosives will be used to trade with a Tarmogoyf, Mongoose, or something of the sort, or a Force of Will will be used up--the point is simply that you can trick your opponent into wasting reactive resources. While these might be proper plays against Threshold’s limited resources, you have the advantage of running more threats than Threshold and being able to recur them. You can generate massive card-advantage in this way, since it will take some time for your opponent to catch on.

Usually, this element of surprise will wear off in time to allow your opponent to plan properly for the second game. Keep this in mind, and try to keep your opponent off-balance; don’t go for win-more options. For example, if you can, keep Gigapede back in game one so that he can come out as a panic-inducing surprise in the second. The same goes for Wonder.

The other deck that you can masquerade as is It’s the Fear ( http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9724); this is ideal for slower opening hands, and has the advantage of masking your superior threat density, which can then catch your opponent off-guard and force some major backpedalling.


Opening Hands

This deck is fairly mana-hungry, and so you will generally want to keep hands with at least two lands. Whatever else ends up in your hand isn’t all that important, since you have a number of different strategies to choose from and all the tools necessary to find what you need; slow hands are perfectly workable, although I personally prefer a hand with some early pressure (a Mongoose or Tarmogoyf or two). One-land hands can be kept when accompanied by cantrips (Ponder being preferable to Brainstorm due to its shuffling ability), but I generally opt to mulligan unless I know what I’m playing against, and know that frequent land destruction is unlikely. I just wouldn’t advise risking it unless you’ve already mulliganed a few times.

Land-light hands should aim to cast Ponder before Brainstorm because the ability to shuffle into lands (if necessary) is crucial when it comes to preventing mana difficulties. Likewise, if playing against an unknown deck, it’s often safer to just fetch a basic land first, and then nab some sort of dual land to complement it (e.x. fetch a Forest, then an Underground Sea). Forests are obviously most important early on; Islands lose their importance as the game goes on, while Swamps gain in value since your control elements are primarily based upon them.


Sample Hands and Analysis

Before I start with the sample hands, a quick note on the process used to obtain them is necessary. First, I am using Magic Workstation (my apologies for this; I just moved into a new apartment in a new province, and forgot to bring my Magic cards with me). As we know, algorithm-generated “shuffles” aren’t really random, properly speaking.

Nevertheless, they’re pretty representative, and certainly suffice for this exercise, whose sole point is to demonstrate how certain opening situations play out, when to mulligan, etc. I am using my (Goaswerfraiejen’s) current version of the deck. Also, please note that this section is meant primarily to help to familiarize players currently unfamiliar with the deck, format, Magic in general, etc. with this particular deck’s early workings. That means that I won’t be saying anything particularly insightful for the rest of you.


Hand 1: Swamp, Swamp, Underground Sea, Ponder, Intuition, Force of Will, Gigapede

Verdict: Not ideal, but entirely workable. I’d keep against most decks, unless speed is an issue.

Turn 1: Assuming that I play first (thus delving one card less), opening with Ponder yields Force of Will, Brainstorm, and Windswept Heath. Perfect. I would put the Force on the bottom, the Heath on top, and draw the Brainstorm. If necessary, then, I can sacrifice Brainstorm to the Force already in my hand and thereby save the Intuition. Alternately, I can cast it with the Sea after drawing the Heath and cracking it for a Forest.

Turn 2: Draw Heath. Play it, crack it for a Forest (with two basics already in hand, Forest is the safest thing to fetch against an unknown deck). Play the Brainstorm, draw Shriekmaw, Intuition, Brainstorm. Put Gigapede back on top (so that it can be fetched with Intuition if necessary), followed by one Intuition (keeping it safe from discard).

Turn 3: Draw Intuition, play Swamp, and either cast Intuition right away, wait until the end of your opponent’s next turn, or use Shriekmaw on some critter (Tarmogoyf?). At this point, it all depends on the game-state.


Hand 2: Windswept Heath, Tropical Island, Nimble Mongoose, Tarmogoyf, Shriekmaw Genesis, Pernicious Deed


Verdict: Awesome hand; definitely a keeper!

Turn 1: Tropical Island, followed by Nimble Mongoose. Better to save the Heath for when you have a marginally better idea of what your opponent is playing.

Turn 2: Draw Intuition. Play Heath, crack it for a Bayou, and play Tarmogoyf (at least a 1/2). Swing for 1 with the Mongoose.

Turn 3: Draw Nimble Mongoose. At this point, you need to hit a land soon. Either Shriekmaw an opposing Tarmogoyf and grow your own, or play the Mongoose and swing for 2. Since we’re goldfishing, we’ll do the latter.

Turn 4: Draw Deed. Unfortunately, the next land (Wasteland) is preceded by Wonder and another Tarmogoyf. You should be able to hold out until then with your creatures, but it’s a very bad situation for you. In this scenario, I’d Intuition for Life from the Loam, Cephalid Coliseum, and either another land (probably a basic Island or Swamp) or Raven’s Crime. If you’re facing mana-directed hate, however, you’re probably not going to come out on top. Nevertheless, it’s worth fighting on, since you do have a decent army in front of you. Such is luck.


Hand 3: Nimble Mongoose, Tarmogoyf, Stinkweed Imp, Thoughtseize, Brainstorm, Ponder, Intuition

Verdict: Obviously unworkable. Mull to Swamp, Forest, Underground Sea, Brainstorm, Daze, Intuition. This time, you’ve got an excellent hand; keep it.

Turn 1: Play your Underground Sea, and cast Brainstorm at the end of your opponent’s turn (or in response to something). It nets you Ponder, Tarmogoyf, Force of Will. If your opponent cast Thoughtseize or something similar, put back the Intuition with Tarmogoyf on top (unless he can nab your lands, as with Hymn to Tourach). Otherwise, unless you need the Force immediately, I’d opt to put back the Swamp and Forest.

Turn 2: Draw Forest. Play Forest, then play Tarmogoyf (1/2).

Turn 3: Draw Swamp. If necessary, play the Swamp to cast Intuition (for some sort of Genesis pile, probably). Otherwise, save both cards for a bit and Ponder into Tarmogoyf, Thoughtseize, and Polluted Delta. Depending on what your opponent is playing/has played, Thoughtseize probably isn’t all that useful at the moment, so put it on the bottom followed by Polluted Delta. Draw the Tarmogoyf. Play your Swamp, then play a second Tarmogoyf (2/3). At this point, again, the game-state takes over and makes it very difficult to say what to play. You might have had to Daze something before, for example, thereby slowing you down a tad. Still, it’s easy enough to figure out.


Hand 4: Wasteland, Bayou, Windswept Heath, Tarmogoyf, Eternal Witness, Shriekmaw, Force of Will

Verdict: An excellent hand.

Turn 1: Play Windswept Heath.

Turn 2: Draw Tarmogoyf. Crack Heath for Tropical Island, play Wasteland, cast Tarmogoyf (1/2).

Turn 3: Draw Swamp. Play Swamp. Play Tarmogoyf. Possibly Waste a land across the board. Or you can always opt to destroy an opposing Tarmogoyf. Swing for 1 (or 2, if Shriekmaw had some fun).

Turn 4: Draw Intuition. The field is now wide open; you’ll probably want to cast Intuition this turn, and you’ll probably want to grab either a Genesis pile, or Loam/Raven’s Crime/Cephalid Coliseum--this will depend on what’s sitting across the board from you, and how effective a mana denial strategy might prove.


Hand 5: Swamp, Raven’s Crime, Brainstorm, Intuition, Intuition, Eternal Witness, Pernicious Deed

Verdict: Unworkable. Mulligan into Underground Sea, Ponder, Ponder, Brainstorm, Intuition, Nimble Mongoose[/i]. This is workable, if a little risky. If you know you’re playing against something with Wasteland, go to five. Otherwise, we’ll take it and try to run with it.

Turn 1: Play Underground Sea, and cast Ponder (you will need to shuffle if there are no lands) for Stinkweed Imp, Tropical Island, and Pernicious Deed. Keep the pile as it is, and draw the Imp; you don’t want to run the chance of losing that Tropical Island to a discard spell.

Turn 2: Draw Tropical Island. Play Tropical Island. Cast Ponder from the Underground Sea: you want to hit another land ASAP, and if you do hit one you’ll want to play the Mongoose. Ponder reveals Pernicious Deed, Cephalid Coliseum, and Force of Will. Put Deed last, Coliseum just on top, and draw Force of Will. You now have Threshold, so cast a 3-power Nimble Mongoose and enjoy your ability to counter something if necessary.

Turn 3: Draw Cephalid Coliseum. Cast Brainstorm off of Underground Sea (unless you need Shriekmaw or an Intuition fix ASAP). It nets you Pernicious Deed, Forest, and Brainstorm. Put back what you don’t need right away (probably Coliseum and Deed). Play the basic Forest, and Brainstorm into the two cards you put back plus a Force of Will. Put the same cards back, and enjoy your counter backup. Alternately, you could have kept Coliseum, played it, and possibly even popped it if necessary. Or there was always the Stinkweed Imp, or Intuition. At this point, there are simply too many situational options to describe, and it’s really up to your own discretion.


Hand 6: Forest, Windswept Heath, Tropical Island, Tarmogoyf, Shriekmaw, Shriekmaw, Pernicious Deed

Verdict: Excellent hand.

Turn 1: Play your Forest.

Turn 2: Draw Life from the Loam. Play Tropical Island, followed by Tarmogoyf (0/1).

Turn 3: Draw an Island. Play Windswept Heath, crack it for a Bayou. Either cast a Shriekmaw, Deed, or Life from the Loam. Swing with your Tarmogoyf. Your next few turns are pretty well set up, and should be straightforward. Unfortunately, you’ll be drawing land for three turns (if you recur the Heath and shuffle again) before hitting a Mongoose. Such are the vagaries of the game, however.


Hand 7: Swamp, Bayou, Shriekmaw, Shriekmaw, Wonder, Brainstorm, Ponder

Verdict: You could keep this hand. If you know what you’re playing against, that might be good enough. So too if you’re on the draw. It’s not a very aggressive hand, however, and I personally think it’s worth mulliganing. And so, we wind up with a hand consisting of Island, Swamp, Polluted Delta, Thoughtseize, Intuition, and Eternal Witness. Much, much better. We’ll keep this one.

Turn 1: Play your Swamp, then Thoughtseize.

Turn 2: Draw Pernicious Deed. Play your Island.

Turn 3: Draw Windswept Heath. Play it and crack it for a basic Forest. Play Deed.

Turn 4: Draw Thoughtseize. Play Polluted Delta. Play Thoughtseize. Crack the Delta for a Tropical Island, and cast Intuition (if it doesn’t resolve, you’ll be able to bring it back with Witness) for whatever you need at this point in the game (possibly Stinkweed Imp for removal, but obviously that’ll depend). Alternately, you could blow up Deed if it stuck around. Just do what needs to be done. If anything fails, you can just fix it with Eternal Witness on your next turn.


What to take away from these sample hands

The sample hands above certainly have their limitations, not least of which being the MWS shuffler. Still, there are a few things that can be taken away from the above scenarios. First of all, hands with only one land are seldom worth keeping, unless you’ve mulliganed into them and are capable of casting a Ponder or two (if you only hand one land and a single Brainstorm, I would just mulligan again). Two-land hands are usually perfectly workable, and three-land hands tend to be ideal since those first three land drops are the most important for the deck.

Often, chance will give you hands that are perfectly decent, but rather lacking as far as aggression (or control) goes. This is perfectly fine, and entirely workable, but you just have to realise which role you’ve been forced into and play accordingly, using Intuition and your other tools to balance out whichever role is deficient.

Your first two or three turns will generally all play out very similarly; it’s really only once Intuition comes into play that things open up for you. This is especially useful for tricking the opponent into thinking you’re playing a bad or slow version of BUG Threshold, forcing him into what are really bad plays (such as trading to kill a Mongoose).


Dealing with Hate

The most common form of hate that you will see boarded in against you is graveyard hate (Usually Tormod’s Crypt, sometimes Extirpate, Jotun Grunt, or Leyline of the Void). In fact, there seems to be a fairly common misconception that graveyard hate is particularly problematic for Intuition-Threshold to deal with. Losing some resources is never beneficial, that much is certain. Having some card-advantage engines shut down is likewise undesirable. Nevertheless, you have ample alternatives within the maindeck, and can always just hardcast Genesis or Wonder if need be. Don’t put Genesis in the yard until you can make some use of it (bringing back just a single Mongoose is good enough), but don’t hesitate to do so either. If the deck you’re playing against isn’t running Swords to Plowshares (or hasn’t any white mana at the moment), you can just hardcast Genesis or Wonder and take however many swings you’re allowed. Against Leyline, just hardcast things, but try to save a Mongoose and a Shriekmaw for future contingencies. Try to blow it up with Deed or Grip.

Of the above-listed cards, Tormod’s Crypt is the most problematic because it removes everything at once. As always, the key here is not to over-commit to the development of your graveyard. Put things in when you can use them for at least a turn (preferably a game-breaking move), but play carefully. Hardcast your graveyard options. You might even want to activate Coliseum in response to the Crypt going off, just to increase your options afterward.

Finally, a small word about alternatives: should you lose Genesis to some form of graveyard hate or Swords to Plowshares, do not despair! You still have Gigapede, after all, and Gigapede is the real all-star here (since he’s untargetable). Stinkweed Imp is still around for removal, and you also have Cephalid Coliseum for card-advantage--just dredge slightly more carefully. Losing Wonder isn’t a big deal at all unless the opposing army flies; just blow things up and swing in with Gigapede instead. Losing Shriekmaw leaves you with Stinkweed Imp or Deed; losing Life from the Loam just isn’t at all problematic unless you’re facing consistent manabase hate--in which case you were in for a rough ride anyway.

Much more significant is the hate that aims to dismantle your manabase. Sure, you have Life from the Loam to help with that, but let’s be realistic: it’s just one card, and not nearly enough to save you from sustained attacks unless you can bring it online relatively early on. Fetching basics (and at the appropriate time) is obviously of the utmost importance here, and you certainly have more than enough of those to go around. You can survive on two or three lands for quite some time, so focus on developing threats: what value blowing up your lands, when it’s the creatures that need to be dealt with? Nimble Mongoose tends to be stellar here, since it can’t be targeted, as is Gigapede, when or if you can ever cast it. If your metagame is going to be rife with land-hate (Lands.dec, Dragon Stompy, Stax, etc.), then I would suggest re-tooling the deck a tad, such as by including Veteran Explorers (or even Werebear) somewhere.

Goaswerfraiejen
10-21-2008, 05:22 PM
6.) Matchup Analysis


Goblins: This is a very tough matchup to win, especially pre-board. Fetching out basic lands is a key component of your strategy, because mana denial will screw you over. The other part of your strategy has to be to deny the Goblins player multiple drops per turn. That means countering Aether Vial if possible, and dealing with Goblin Lackey as soon as possible. The early game will set up the rest of the game; if you can get a couple of Tarmogoyfs and maybe a Mongoose into play, and then turtle behind Deed, you will probably win so long as you can prevent your opponent from playing too much each turn. One thing to keep in mind here is that you must play defensively. I have a tendency to try to swing for a few extra points of damage, but doing so here will lose you the matchup without fail. Remember that Goblins’ strength lies in playing a hasty horde all at once when you’re not ready to deal with it, and then smacking you down. Accordingly, you must turtle behind Goyf and Deed as much as possible. Post-board, take out Daze and Gigapede (they’re useless here) for Blue Elemental Blast (counterspell AND removal? YES PLEASE!) and sub out Thoughtseize for Crime/Punishment, which is more useful. Good luck; you’ll need it.

The EPIC Storm: With the advent of Ad Nauseam, this isn’t quite the deck it used to be. My testing against the older version was much more extensive, but I think that in general the same sorts of considerations apply. Empty the Warrens isn’t really a kill-condition that you need to worry about too much, since you can Deed or Crime/Punishment your way into a solution. Grapeshot and Tendrils are the real concerns here, and without Stifle, they’re that much more problematic. A number of the principles applicable to earlier versions of this deck are still viable, however. For example, counter the tutor that reaches for a kill or tries to create a chain (Infernal Tutor is the main culprit, but also Burning Wish). Apply Thoughtseize liberally. That is probably your best shot, game one. If you can fend off an early attack, then Loam/Wasteland/Raven’s Crime can carry you the rest of the way on a Tarmogoyf’s back. As with all combo decks, however, that’s the challenge: fending off the initial combo. The good news is that as the game goes on, your chances increase exponentially. Nevertheless, be prepared to lose that first game: Orim’s Chant tends to get in the way. The real contest will be for games two and three. Post-board, then, take out Shriekmaw and Stinkweed Imp for Blue Elemental Blast. You obviously want to use these to hit Burning Wish and save your other counterspells for Orim’s Chant. Cross your fingers and hope for luck. Oh, and side out Deed for Crime/Punishment: it’s a tad faster. Genesis, Wonder, and Gigapede can all come out for Krosan Grip: use it to hit artefact mana sources. You’ve got all the tools to win, you just need to recognize that you’re Arnold, not the Predator.



Threshold in general: A very favourable matchup. This is because your curve is generally outside of Counterbalance range, and Threshold can’t match you threat for threat, whereas you can generally match it counterspell/disruption for counterspell/disruption. Your goal here is to force a standstill until you can get your engines going and out-advantage the Threshold deck. Accordingly, try to set up early creature trades (e.g. Mongoose for Mongoose). Threshold runs very few creatures, which means that early trades act as removal spells—thereby making your own removal all the more potent. Gigapede is an all-star, since he dodges pretty much all of their removal. Finally, Wonder will allow you to clinch the game quickly. If you have the opportunity, attack the manabase with Loam + Wasteland + Raven’s Crime.

UGB Threshold: This is the most problematic of the Threshold variants for you simply because its Stifle-effects and land destruction can put a serious dent in your early game that make it difficult to recover. The key here is to keep a decent hand and fetch out basics as early as possible. Hit Stifle with Thoughtseize if you can—unless there happens to be a Tombstalker hanging around for some reason. If you can stall the game, Dark Confidant damage will eventually overwhelm your opponent. Get Stinkweed Imp online early to fend off some attacks/bite a Stifle or two. Post-board, switch out Deed for Crime/Punishment to save yourself some Stifle headaches. Play carefully, and you should still win more often than not.

UGR Threshold: There’s a large variety of these decks. If you come across the Stifle-variety, play carefully as mentioned above. Also, be wary of your opponent’s reach. Post-board, bring in Blue Elemental Blast for Thoughtseize. If it packs Swans of Brynn Argoll, on the other hand, the match will be that much tougher. Try to get a Loam/Wasteland/Raven’s Crime lock online before your opponent can cast the Swans. Post-board, Blue Elemental Blast is your friend. Bring it in for the Witness and Deeds. Use Thoughtseize to hit Swans and Chain of Plasma.

Countersliver: A fair matchup pre-board, Deed will be the deciding factor here, along with (eventually) Wonder. Deed is the key to the matchup: protect it. This will mean stalling until you can blow up a chunk of the opposing army; accordingly, play defensively. Post-board, take out Shriekmaw for Crime/Punishment—Crystalline Sliver negates the ‘maw, and sweepers will win you the game. It’s that simple, really. You won’t always pull it off, but you have a great chance of winning 2/3 games.

Faerie Stompy: I’d say we’re favoured to win, but this can be a pretty exciting match. The amount of removal that we run will pose problems for Faerie Stompy, but FS can bust out an early start that’s just really hard to race. Keep early beaters off the table, and you should be fine. Concentrate on countering and destroying creatures rather than equipment--the equipment is useless without creatures, and you can easily force FS into topdeck mode. Use Genesis recursion to bring Shriekmaw back as often as possible, and try to fetch out Loam/Wasteland/Raven’s Crime early on to hate out your opponent’s manabase. FS’ biggest asset in this fight is its explosive speed early on; its greatest weakness is its tenuous creature base. Post-board, switch out Deed for Crime/Punishment: this avoids potential problems caused by Pithing Needle.

Reanimator: Big, flying pro-black (and black) things are NOT good. Daze and FoW, however, are (but Deed is not very useful in this matchup, unfortunately). Stinkweed Imp is pretty cool here, and it’s always nice to have stuff in the grave to Exhume. What you board in will depend on the creature base you’re facing (Hellkites, for example, make Blue Elemental Blast a better card than Deed). Extirpate should probably come in for Shriekmaw/Deed.

Ichorid: I’d basically call this an auto-loss. Hell, I’ve pretty much stopped trying to win. Without more significant graveyard hate in the SB, you just aren’t likely to win against an opponent that’s familiar with his or her deck. Post-board, Extirpate won’t help much, but it might steal you a game. Shriekmaw should be replaced by Crime/Punishment, which can at least hit tokens. Also, you won’t need your counterspells. What the hell, bring in Worm Harvest just in case--it’ll be more useful. If Ichorid is likely to be an issue in your area, do yourself a favour and board Tormod’s Crypt.

Belcher: Win some, lose some. As with all fast combo, you have a very good chance with your counter suite, but everything depends on the hands that you and your opponent are dealt. Forget about playing creatures, sculpt your hand to counter Goblin Charbelcher or to deal with Empty the Warrens tokens (don’t forget Thoughtseize!). If you have the opportunity to hit a land with Wasteland, it might be worth it just to slow your opponent down a turn. Post-board, bring in Crime/Punishment for Shriekmaw, and Blue Elemental Blast for Wonder, Genesis, Gigapede, and Stinkweed Imp.

Burn: Win some, lose some. This matchup is really easy to play, but winning depends on your draws. Waste no time attacking with Tarmogoyf, and save your Forces for 4+ damage spells. Daze what you can, have Thoughtseize hit 3-damage spells. Try to fetch mostly basics, since Price of Progress really hurts. Post-board, bring in Blue Elemental Blast and Extirpate for Shriekmaw, Genesis, Wonder, Gigapede, and Stinkweed Imp. Your objective is to deplete your opponent’s hand and deck of resources, while nullifying topdecks.

Goyf Sligh: Initially rough, it gets a little better after boarding. Your creatures easily outclass your opponent’s, but burn gives him/her the reach he/she needs to win. Counterspells should be aimed at the burn (particularly Fireblast and Price of Progress); try to fetch basics to nullify Price of Progress. Blow things up regularly. If you have the time, attack the manabase with Loam/Wasteland/Raven’s Crime. Post-board, you want those Blue Elemental Blasts! I’d say to replace Deed and Wonder with them. The good news is that this deck can’t side all that much in against you.

Various Stax Builds: Slightly unfavourable to rather yucky, depending on the build and your respective starting hands. You’ll want to counter Smokestack and Crucible of Worlds, and use Wasteland liberally on the manabase. A single safe fatty will win you the game, but you’ll need to hold its hand the whole way through. In general, this isn’t a great matchup. Try to fetch basics and get Loam out ASAP. Loam/Wasteland/Raven’s Crime is your ideal Intuition pile. Post-board, you can only really bring in Krosan Grip in Shriekmaw’s stead. The good news is that Stax is relatively slow, so you generally have a little time to find things.

Affinity: Highly favourable. Keep your counterspells for Disciple of the Vault, and just blow up your opponent’s manabase once he or she has largely expended his or her hand. You should be able to rebuild faster. Post-board, bring in Crime/Punishment for Thoughtseize, and Krosan Grip for Shriekmaw. Rinse and repeat. Fetch out a Loam and Wasteland when you can for added carnage.

Dreadstill: The longer the game runs, the more favourable it becomes for you. The faster Dreadnought hits the table, the worse it is. Stifle and Trickbind neuter a chunk of your deck, unfortunately, and Wasteland won’t help. This deck has the ability to assault your manabase early on, and that’s the biggest threat you’ll face after Dreadnought. If you can play around all that, you have good odds. Otherwise, I just swallow the loss and move on. Post-board, Krosan Grip comes in for Shriekmaw, and Crime/Punishment replaces Wonder, Genesis, and Gigapede.

Aggro-Loam: Pretty even, I think. Game one, you really want to keep Devastating Dreams and Seismic Assault off the table. Countryside Crusher is also rather unfortunate. Game one is tough to pull off, but with a good start, you can do it. Getting Life from the Loam online early on is very important, and you’ll probably want Stinkweed Imp/Genesis recursion fairly soon too, to deal with the Terravores and Crushers (although Deed works nicely too). Post-board, bring in Blue Elemental Blast for Daze and Extirpate for Nimble Mongoose. Use Extirpate against Life from the Loam, and then after that on win conditions. Blue Elemental Blast should complement FoW against Dreams/Assault, and complement Shriekmaw against Crusher.

Painter Decks: You have all the tools necessary to win here, but your success will depend a great deal on the version that you’re squaring off against. You obviously want to counter or destroy Grindstone, and later Extirpate it if you can. Krosan Grip will no doubt also prove necessary to bring in. If you expect to face a few of these, replace Worm Harvest with at least one Gaea’s Blessing (preferably two) to help you just a little. To be honest, I haven’t got enough experience playing against the different versions of this deck to talk reliably about the best strategies. Input is obviously appreciated.

Survival Variants: Generally, these turn out to be pretty even matchups. Expect a hard fight to win. Deed is obviously stellar here, as is Wasteland recursion. Later, Extirpate can help out some. Your setup is a little faster, so I recommend to use the early game to attack your opponent’s manabase as much as possible. Fetch out Loam/Wasteland/Raven’s Crime early on, and you should be able to slowly steamroll your opponent.

It’s the Fear: This is also a matchup that’s close enough that I’m not comfortable calling it; at least, not without more experience playing against it. Nimble Mongoose and Gigapede are your paths to victory here, since they evade Shackles. Most of the games that I’ve lost to ITF have been to miscalculations and underestimations of Shackles’ power: it basically means that your opponent has access to eight Tarmogoyfs, and you have none. These will likely be long games. Your goal is to land Gigaepede eventually, and to attack their hand and manabase with Loam/Wasteland/Raven’s Crime. Unfortunately, the fact that your opponent runs Loam as well makes that a little harder unless you can hit his or her green mana early on (or, dare I say it, Extirpate Loam). I’m not sure what the best sideboarding technique is quite yet, but I suspect it involves trading out Tarmogoyf and Stinkweed Imp, possibly for Extirpate and Worm Harvest.

Landstill: The Loam/Wasteland/Raven’s Crime Intuition pile really shines here, so try to get it into play as soon as possible. Your early aggression puts you in a good position, since it will force the Landstill player to quickly use up his or her reactive resources (counterspells, Deed, etc.). As usual, you want to break Standstill as soon as possible and just get it over with. Landstill decks will usually give you a chance to cultivate your board position, so take advantage of that fact; rack up the lands and force them to commit resources to paltry threats. If you’re playing against a white-splash variant, be wary of Humility--it can be a real doozie. Unless Humility hits the table, Gigapede should ultimately carry this for you. Post-board, bring in Krosan Grip for Daze. Grip is much better here because it can hit Factories, Humility, and Crucible of Worlds. You probably also want to bring in Worm Harvest (if you’ve got it) just in case you have to live under Humility for a little while--it’s also useful for overwhelming the opponent and forcing him or her to commit resources; kind of like an extra Gigapede.

Random decks: You should crush most of these, largely thanks to Deed and, later, Crime//Punishment.



7.) Results:

I unfortunately don’t live in an area that’s very close to any Legacy tournaments, so I’ve not had the opportunity to bring this deck to any significant tournaments. And since I’m working on my Master’s degree at the moment, time and money are a little too tight for this to change for at least another year. It’s also prevented me from entering the last few online tournaments that cropped up (Source and mtgsalvation tournaments), although I hope to change that as soon as another gets up and running. Accordingly, I just want to use this section to point lists that have made a small splash worldwide on a scale slightly grander than my own local scale.

Note: Some of these decks more closely resemble past incarnations (with Psychatog, for example); that’s just unavoidable, with the deck’s long history. While the lists may no longer be quite as similar as they once were, there are certainly lessons to be learned.

Intuition-Thresh
Alex Mack (Mackaber)
2008 German Legacy Championship (3rd)

Main Deck:

4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Wasteland

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Werebear
1 Wonder
1 Genesis
2 Shriekmaw

3 Pernicious Deeds
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
4 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Raven's Crime
1 Loam


Sideboard:
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Extirpate
4 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Gigapede
3 Krosan Grip
1 Engineered Explosives



Psychatog
Michael Redford
2007 Worlds New York, NY
Legacy

Main Deck:
1 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Psychatog
1 Stinkweed Imp
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Wonder

4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Deep Analysis
4 Force of Will
3 Intuition
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Ponder
4 Spell Snare

3 Flooded Strand
3 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground River


Sideboard:
3 Echoing Truth
4 Engineered Explosives
2 Hail Storm
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Stifle


Gifts-TarmoTog
Japan, 2007 (9th)

Main Deck:
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Barren Moor
1 Lonely Sandbar
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Cephalid Coliseum

4 Brainstorm
3 Gifts Ungiven
1 Life from the Loam
1 Smother
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Damnation
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Cunning Wish

1 Shriekmaw
1 Eternal Witness
2 Psychatog
4 Tarmogoyf

Sideboard
1 Seedtime
1 Plagiarize
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Hideous Laughter
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Constant Mists
1 Teferi's Response
1 Stifle
1 Forbid
1 Misdirection
1 Krosan Grip
4 Extirpate


8.) Developmental Opportunities/Customizability:

As with most decks, there’s a fair bit of room in Intuition-Thresh for customization. Pretty much everything beyond your basic Threshold creatures and your Intuition package is open to change. Your removal package, for example, can be pretty much anything in-colour: I’ve had some success with builds running (always with at least one lone Shriekmaw) Sudden Death, Damnation, Smother, etc. You can choose to run Werebear or Veteran Explorer for added manabase stability (the Explorers are particularly good, by the way), you could go the Dredge-A-Tog route (add some Psychatogs, maybe another Loam, possibly Deep Analysis, etc.), you could increase either your counter or disruption packages, etc. If you’re worried about graveyard hate, Volrath’s Stronghold is always an option (over Genesis), although we’ve already outlined our reasons for preferring Genesis.

That said, I feel that the version that Hanni and I have developed is close to optimal for a blind or internet metagame. As far as customizing slots goes, then, I’d only advise metagame alterations. If you’re planning on facing a lot of Dreadstill, for example, Smother or Diabolic Edict might replace most of your Shriekmaws. Or, if you’re planning on seeing a lot of Stax and dedicated mana-hate, Veteran Explorer would be well-worth plugging in (yes, it’s a symmetrical card, but you generally benefit much more from it than your opponent can). Engineered Plague might even be a better sideboard choice than Crime/Punishment for your metagame--the point is that you can tailor the deck to what you need.

Since there aren’t too many of us working on this deck right now, this section of the primer is still a little scant. A few similar lists have cropped up worldwide now and then, but most aren’t really worth mentioning. It would also be possible to discuss a number of similar offshoots that are hanging around, such as Solpugid’s River Rock (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8024&highlight=river+rock), donbiteitholmes’ Plymouth Rock ( http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8226&highlight=plymouth+rock), or nitewolf9’s very recent Team America ( http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11605) (Top4 finish at the Source Anniversary Tournament), but those are probably best left to their own threads.

In other words, the idea is to keep this section as a place to highlight interesting new lists that crop up/developmental possibilities.


Hanni and georgjorge once brought up the possibility of a Red splash of the deck. Adding burn for added reach and speed is an interesting approach. Obviously, it’s going to differ from the UGB version significantly, but it certainly has potential. Here are their suggested lists:


Hanni’s U/G/r Intuition-Thresh

Lands (19)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Wasteland

Creatures (13)
4 Mongoose
4 Goyf
3 Wild Mongrel
1 Gigapede
1 Anger

Spells (28)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning

Whether or not Mongrel is better than Werebear or Quirion Dryad is a question that’s up for grabs. It’s worth noting that your fundamental Intuition piles remain largely unchanged, except that Anger now replaces Wonder and Barbarian Ring takes Cephalid Coliseum’s place. Instead of disruption, the deck now packs a scary burn package, speeding it up a few turns.


georgjorge’s UGR Late-Thresh:

8 Fetches
8 Duals (of three different styles)
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Barbarian Ring

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Mongrel
3 Mongoose
1 Gigapede
1 Roar of the Wurm
1 Wonder

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam

4 Bolt
3 Fire/Ice

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare


It should be clear, at first glance, that this list closely resembles some versions of UGR Threshold, but with late-game elements substituting the Counterbalance lock. Burn acts as removal and reach. The control element here is much weaker than in the UGB version, obviously, but the sacrifice was for a little more speed. Intuition also plays a reduced role, generally complementary to Wild Mongrel (fetching Loam, Wonder, and Barbarian Ring or Roar of the Wurm in order to pitch them).


This opens up the possibility of a white splash for Swords to Plowshares, Jotun Grunt, Meddling Mage, etc. There’s also space for returning to Psychatog (or Tombstalker) with more dredgers, as evidenced by the Worlds list above. These are all interesting avenues to explore, but they require much more testing to determine their viability.


Conclusion

In sum, we can only say that I hope that the deck interests you and that some of you decide to pick it up. It has its problems, but it also has distinct advantages, and is a blast to play (after all, you get to see and play a chunk of your library most games). The deck has come very far since 2006, but it can go much farther (faster) if more people come together and give it a whirl. We encourage you all to do just that, and post your thoughts for a sustained discussion. It is our hope that this new primer will re-invigorate interest in the deck.

Take care and good luck,

-Goaswerfraiejen & Hanni

johanessen
10-21-2008, 08:09 PM
Thanks for all the info... but i have to say i prefer playing thresh as a tempo-thresh deck with black or canadian... both fast decks

Anyway it has to be good deck, hard to play with much many resources than standard thresh and card advantage in mid game. i want to test it!

Mordel
10-21-2008, 11:11 PM
Really, really awesome post. I am liking the deck and will beplaying around with it for sure. Three dazes strikes me as a bit odd, but hybridization etc is a harsh mistress and I am sure that it was dropped after a lot of testing.

Aggro_zombies
10-22-2008, 01:35 AM
Jesus W. Christ, that's a whole lot of post. How long did that take you to write up?! Also, good job.

How do you deal with Burning Wish out of Aggro Loam? Using Extirpate on their Loam is only so effective when they can get it back, and holding counters to use against Wish would hinder your ability to stop them from resolving their permanents (though this is somewhat moot if they run Volrath's Stronghold). In those versions with access to it, Chalice at one would also take out about half your counters, your discard, and all of your dig. It also seems like any sort of explosive start on their part would sink you before you could stabilize, since they'd have too many "must counter"s for you to deal with. Finally, graveyard hate in the form of Leyline of the Void or a well-timed Crypt would wreck you game two unless they can't kill you before you hit four mana and pop a Deed.

I'm not saying that it's not close. Judging by your lists, most Aggro Loam players would have a rough time and I doubt either deck could eke out a significant advantage in the matchup without boarding specifically against it. However, as an Aggro Loam player, explosive starts can be extremely common and your life total can drop to the point where you may not be able to stabilize in time, especially because many of your really devastating engines are very mana-hungry. (By "you," I mean the Thresh player)

That may be different for this deck, however. I'm going off what I know from control matchups, mostly Landstill.

Poron
10-22-2008, 03:32 AM
why don't we run 1x Volrath's Stronghold?

THEchubbymuffin
10-22-2008, 03:58 AM
why don't we run 1x Volrath's Stronghold?

I was wondering this too. I have yet to pick up this deck, but why is genesis better than Volrath's stronghold. In my history I have decided that any time you play loam, Volrath's seems better. The fact that you can use it End of Turn instead of in the upkeep and that is taps for mana is worth the fact that it goes on top of library.

Solpugid
10-22-2008, 08:47 AM
As was explained in (one of) the opening post, genesis is a guaranteed source of card advantage where stronghold rarely is. I could see both being run, perhaps by moving the wasteland to the board, but not in place of genesis.

Daze confuses me too, actually. I've tested this deck with daze and found that it seriously interferes with my ability to utilize the recursion engines and deed. I suppose in a combo-heavy meta the dazes are a necessary evil.

Boogy_Boy
10-22-2008, 10:14 AM
Awesome work, I've worked on an Intuition based UG (with splash of other color) deck, and I never could quite get it right.

If only there could be a recursion engine for instants/sorceries, the deck's bad MU would be so much better...

Against Dreadstill, recuring Krosan grip is gg.
Ichorid -> Crime/Punishmen.


As was explained in (one of) the opening post, genesis is a guaranteed source of card advantage where stronghold rarely is. I could see both being run, perhaps by moving the wasteland to the board, but not in place of genesis.

That, and a Gigapede, wonder, genesis Intuition stack is game over for thresh anyway. (Without GY hate boarded that is) A similar Intuition stack with Stronghold isn't as aggressive imo.

jazzykat
10-22-2008, 11:37 AM
Hi, thanks to all the author's of this primer as it is beautifully crafted and in depth enough to take a decent player from 0 to decent much quicker than just a list.

If anything this should be an example primer on how to rock someones socks off.

Hmmm...further on thinking it would be sort of cool to have a resources board/set of links where primers, and lists of required reading would go in as opposed to having it buried in the normal deck forums.

Goaswerfraiejen
10-22-2008, 10:48 PM
Thanks for all your thoughts, kind comments, and interest.


Jesus W. Christ, that's a whole lot of post. How long did that take you to write up?!

IIRC, Hanni and I have had it in the works since mid or late August. Thereabouts, at any rate. You’re staring at 31 pages’ worth of words. :eek:



How do you deal with Burning Wish out of Aggro Loam? Using Extirpate on their Loam is only so effective when they can get it back, and holding counters to use against Wish would hinder your ability to stop them from resolving their permanents (though this is somewhat moot if they run Volrath's Stronghold).

Well, like I said, you’re going to have to counter it. Unfortunately, that makes a whole lot of counterspell targets, which is part of the difficulty. At the very least, however, Extirpating Loam should give you a few turns to breathe. The good news is that this is a difficult matchup for both decks--too close to call. A lot hangs on your respective opening hands.



In those versions with access to it, Chalice at one would also take out about half your counters, your discard, and all of your dig.

Absolutely; it’s to be avoided. The nice thing is that such a low setting is easy enough to blow up. It’s worth noting that Grip or Crime/Punishment can also come in to help you after the first game (Crime/Punishment doubles as removal, but Grip hits hate--I’m not sure which is best), although I’m not sure what should come out for it/them.


It also seems like any sort of explosive start on their part would sink you before you could stabilize, since they'd have too many "must counter"s for you to deal with.

Granted. Thoughtseize, Daze, and Force of Will do go a long way toward slowing them down early on, in game one, however. The early game is very defensive on our part.


Finally, graveyard hate in the form of Leyline of the Void or a well-timed Crypt would wreck you game two unless they can't kill you before you hit four mana and pop a Deed.

Or three for Grip. Leyline isn’t a huge consideration, though: I’m more worried about Crypt. Our graveyard isn’t all that relevant until the mid and late-games, by which time we should have amassed the mana to blow up the Leyline. Crypt is more unfortunate because it can come in after you think you have the game under control and get rid of your control elements. Basically, it doesn’t let us put our eggs all in the same basket.

This is a very tasking matchup, no bones about it. It’s also a lot of fun to play out. I called it “pretty much even” (“slightly unfavourable” might have been better) because so much hangs on your respective opening hands in all three games (and because, in testing, I’ve lost as many as I’ve won).


I'm not saying that it's not close. Judging by your lists, most Aggro Loam players would have a rough time and I doubt either deck could eke out a significant advantage in the matchup without boarding specifically against it. However, as an Aggro Loam player, explosive starts can be extremely common and your life total can drop to the point where you may not be able to stabilize in time, especially because many of your really devastating engines are very mana-hungry. (By "you," I mean the Thresh player)

That may be different for this deck, however. I'm going off what I know from control matchups, mostly Landstill.

Oh, you’re bang-on: there’s no denying it. Play errors will cost us the game against aggro-loam. There’s no ignoring the problems. By the same token, however, we can put up a hell of a fight. :smile:


why don't we run 1x Volrath's Stronghold?

I was wondering this too. I have yet to pick up this deck, but why is genesis better than Volrath's stronghold. In my history I have decided that any time you play loam, Volrath's seems better. The fact that you can use it End of Turn instead of in the upkeep and that is taps for mana is worth the fact that it goes on top of library.

Solpugid hit this nail on the head, and it’s explained in the primer: it’s a combination of mana requirements (colourless mana being decidedly unsightly here), card advantage, and Genesis’ fat behind. It’s also worth noting that Stronghold is vulnerable to Pithing Needle (although that’s a little less relevant today than it was even a year ago), and that you seldom have three mana open at the end of your turn, at least early on. Paying it in your upkeep sucks, but it doesn’t cost you a draw (like a land draw), and it leaves you the option to Dredge your draw. Come to think of it, I should edit that last one into the Primer.




Daze confuses me too, actually. I've tested this deck with daze and found that it seriously interferes with my ability to utilize the recursion engines and deed. I suppose in a combo-heavy meta the dazes are a necessary evil.

I don’t remember if I mentioned this in the primer, but I’m not a huge fan of Daze. I’d like to replace it with Veteran Explorers (my older versions made that call) or extra lands (perhaps even including a Stronghold), but Hanni and I were worried about the combo matchups. If some of you feel like testing some lands in these slots to see if it’s a worthwhile tradeoff, that would be much appreciated.




If only there could be a recursion engine for instants/sorceries, the deck's bad MU would be so much better...

Well, for a mere 3GGG you can recur Eternal Witness... :tongue:

Aggro_zombies
10-23-2008, 12:07 AM
Or three for Grip. Leyline isn’t a huge consideration, though: I’m more worried about Crypt. Our graveyard isn’t all that relevant until the mid and late-games, by which time we should have amassed the mana to blow up the Leyline. Crypt is more unfortunate because it can come in after you think you have the game under control and get rid of your control elements. Basically, it doesn’t let us put our eggs all in the same basket.

This is a very tasking matchup, no bones about it. It’s also a lot of fun to play out. I called it “pretty much even” (“slightly unfavourable” might have been better) because so much hangs on your respective opening hands in all three games (and because, in testing, I’ve lost as many as I’ve won).
Ah, it's refreshing to hear someone admit that a matchup may not be rosy.

That said, Chalice at zero stops Crypt and doesn't affect your deck in any way, but it's not really useful outside that application. Stifle and Pithing Needle, however...Stifle is more of a tempo card, so it may not be appropriate here, but Needle on Crypt forces them to Wish for Shattering Spree or Hull Breach before they can land a Crypt. Having a counter handy to either hit the Wish or hit the Crypt would help, though I'd rather hit the Wish because some builds (like mine) run Eternal Witness. Allowing Wish to hit the yard in that case (or in most cases) does a couple good things for you.

First, it forces them to spend more mana: Witness into Wish into Card, as opposed to Witness into Card. That can be relevant because tangling up Aggro-Loam's resources like that gives you more time to set up some of the engines, like Shriekmaw-Genesis.

Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, it allows you to Extirpate it. Extirpating Wish is GG in almost all cases, as Loam's Wishboard makes your life a lot more difficult than it needs to be. It also allows you to cripple them by permanently removing Loam. If you can deal with their creatures at that point (and you should be able to), there's nothing they can do unless you're at a very low life total.

I'd suggest looking into a one-of copy of Viridian Zealot, probably in the sideboard. The Aggro Loam player's best artifact options against you involve Needle (on Deed or EE) and Chalice at one, and this beats both of those AND Seismic Assault. It can also be randomly useful elsewhere, such as against It's the Fear, where it's like a Meddling Mage set to Standstill and Counterbalance, or against Painter, where it kills the namesake card and stops the loop from forming in addition to turning sideways for two.

Most of these are really just specific to the Aggro Loam matchup. Unless you're expecting that deck in spades, only Needle is really useful across the board.

Solpugid
10-23-2008, 10:34 AM
The issue with viridian zealot is that this deck usually runs with 1 or 2 green-producing lands in play. Getting three in the early turns is rather rare, which means zealot is a 2-turn play, obviously allowing the opposing deck a full turn to remove it. It also can't hit a blood moon that's already in play barring great fortune AND great foresight.

I don't know what could possibly take its place (that's a creature, anyway), but I would think zealot would be dead in hand too often. Wickerbough elder is only 1 extra mana, I suppose.

darkalucard
10-24-2008, 12:58 AM
First of:

I like the idea behind the deck.
I love the decks primer.
I just can't understand your card choices.
I totally agree where your going with the deck though.



@Goaswerfraiejen:

Lands (18)

3 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Forest

There is no reason to run more than 1 forest.

2 Swamp

Again why more than 1 swamp? Your going to counter Price of Progress anyways... why not make your mana more consistent and run more duals?

1 Island
1 Cephalid Coliseum

Cast LFTL 1G, play CC, Pay U and sac it, draw 3 and discard your two lands. Total cost: Skip your draw + Skip your Land drop + pay 1UG.
Card Advantage: +1 (b/c of dredging)
I don't think its worth it for the card advantage, why give your opponent a time walk just to get +1 card? And if your defense is it's to discard Genesis/Wonder then why play bad cards to make bad cards playable?

1 Wasteland

This would be better as a 3 or 4 of, why waste searching for it? You mana-base is already better for running 3 colors, and your more tempo to take advantage of it. Run more or don't run any.



Creatures (16)

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Shriekmaw

Terror is bad in legacy. Just because you can re-cur it with genesis doesn't make it good. At least run less, maybe it's ok in your meta-game but I would like to kill whatever creature my opponent has and not die b/c my removal is so limited.

1 Wonder

This card is only good if you waste an intuition on it. Top decking this card sucks allot. I don't see how this is good until extreme late game and sucking everywhere else and only gets in a few random I win's. (Minus expected value)

1 Genesis

Simular idea hear. It's a bad top-deck. Cost too much mana to play, and you have to have a discard outlet to use it. The only reason I would see here is when it's Genesis VS. Volrath but in every other situation Volrath (awesome top decking) VS. No Volrath (Random Bad top decking) still wins.

1 Gigapede

I hope the only reason you are playing this is because it is probably your best discard outlet. Otherwise it cost way too much mana. There are better cheaper ways to win late games.

1 Eternal Witness

Not completely horrible but it cost so much mana to 2G (Genesis) 1GG (Witness) and then X (play the card) it seems very slow and just casting cards that do things in the same turn you play them seems better.

1 Stinkweed Imp (Intresting choice that I have not yet tested.)


Spells (26)

3 Brainstorm

How about 4 Brainstorms and 3 Ponder....

4 Ponder
4 Intuition

Is 4 really needed? I think you designed your deck so that it relies to much on intuition if you take out some of the situational 1 off cards you could cut 1, because really if you resolve 1 in the mid-game vs an non-aggro deck you should win.

1 Life from the Loam
4 Force of Will
3 Daze

Can't argue too much although it seems like how heavy intuition your deck is you would get into the late game more than normal in which something else might be better? I think I just hate Daze and your choice is correct. Nevermind...

3 Thoughtseize (this is why we play black)
3 Pernicious Deed

I play a simular deck to yours and yours is more tempo then mine. I decided deed was too slow and play EE. Either is good tho. Why not maindeck removal though? Snuff out, smother, and edict are all good options over shreikmaw.

1 Raven's Crime (I love this card)

mackaber
10-24-2008, 03:19 AM
Wow great Primer Goaswerfraiejen. I really like the dec but I definetly have to agree with the poster above that I find some of your more recent changes to the list hideous (come on 3 brainstorms? you've got to be kidding). Also your manabase is not one I'd ever run or one that can actually support daze. I've actually been testing the dec off and on but have dismissed it momentarily since I found a bit clunky and unwieldy but removing the dazes might actually go a long way. I'd actually like to test spell snare for that slot but the problem is it's hard to keep the mana up. I was actually considering thwart at some point but it sucks too hard post loam to be played as anything other than a one of.
In any case keep up the good work. Hope I'll be able to put up some more results with the dec in the future to give it the credibility it deserves.

Goaswerfraiejen
10-27-2008, 11:05 PM
There is no reason to run more than 1 forest.

Again why more than 1 swamp? Your going to counter Price of Progress anyways... why not make your mana more consistent and run more duals?




There was a very simple reason: shaky manabase, high mana requirements. Forests and Swamps are crucial for aggro component, and Swamps are just as important on the control side.

It's not Price of Progress that worries me: it's Wasteland recursion and other attacks on the manabase. A strong basic core seemed like a good way to counter that. I don't disagree that it's sort of hideous, though.



1 Island
1 Cephalid Coliseum

Cast LFTL 1G, play CC, Pay U and sac it, draw 3 and discard your two lands. Total cost: Skip your draw + Skip your Land drop + pay 1UG.
Card Advantage: +1 (b/c of dredging)
I don't think its worth it for the card advantage, why give your opponent a time walk just to get +1 card? And if your defense is it's to discard Genesis/Wonder then why play bad cards to make bad cards playable?



You forgot about card quality. Coliseum is an excellent late-game engine, and allows you to improve your card quality, trading relatively useless cards for cards that can have an immediate impact on the situation.
There's no Time Walk involved here, unless you're using Coliseum with only three other lands in play--which obviously isn't the time to be using it, since there's so much better to do. Unless you're really desperate, anyway.
The discard argument is part of its usefulness, but certainly not the whole story. The same can be said of Raven's Crime. I use it as a filter more often than not.





1 Wasteland

This would be better as a 3 or 4 of, why waste searching for it? You mana-base is already better for running 3 colors, and your more tempo to take advantage of it. Run more or don't run any.


The big issue was and is colour requirements, as I've explained. I'm not against running more, and you'll see that what I'm currently testing (below) does; but if we start asking that the deck run Stronghold as well, then I'm getting MORE worried about the manabase's weakness.





Terror is bad in legacy. Just because you can re-cur it with genesis doesn't make it good. At least run less, maybe it's ok in your meta-game but I would like to kill whatever creature my opponent has and not die b/c my removal is so limited.


The only real point against Terror is that it's sorcery-speed. Well, that, and Counterbalance/Spell Snare vulnerability. The colour limitations generally aren't all that relevant, especially if you can complement them somehow. Shriekmaw is clearly superior to Terror.

That said, I must confess that the only reason I haven't yet tried Snuff Out as a removal option is that I (for some reason) thought it cost 3:b::b: or 5 life, and couldn't hit artifact creatures. Since it in fact costs 3:b: or 4 life and can hit Phyrexian Colossus, it's that much more interesting. And it tends to dodge Counterbalance more than Shriekmaw due to its weird mana cost, so that's a definite plus. You'll see below that I'm testing it as a 3-of with a Shriekmaw for recursion. I'll report on my results when I've played enough to have some. One concern will be life loss with the Fetchlands and Thoughtseize, but it should be manageable. 3:b: is also not all that hard to hardcast, so I think it should work. Thanks for pointing that out.





1 Wonder

This card is only good if you waste an intuition on it. Top decking this card sucks allot. I don't see how this is good until extreme late game and sucking everywhere else and only gets in a few random I win's. (Minus expected value)


I'll confess that I've been wondering about its usefulness as well. I'll test without it, but one concern is the general lack of evasion in the deck; it means that standstills have to be won through attrition/sweeping to a greater extent than is currently the case. I'll test without it and see how much I miss it, however.




1 Genesis

Simular idea hear. It's a bad top-deck. Cost too much mana to play, and you have to have a discard outlet to use it. The only reason I would see here is when it's Genesis VS. Volrath but in every other situation Volrath (awesome top decking) VS. No Volrath (Random Bad top decking) still wins.



The last part of your argument doesn't work; it should read "Volrath (awesome topdecks) vs. Genesis (awesome topdeck + random topdeck)". Genesis gets you the same card as Stronghold does; it just also gives you an extra card or a dredge, and doesn't mess even more with our manabase. It's not like ITF, where Counterbalance pretty much requires Stronghold. Honestly, in my testing, I've really preferred Genesis (for the reasons mentioned here and in the primer), and I think Hanni agrees.

Needing a discard outlet isn't an issue, currently: there are plenty (Dredge, Coliseum, Raven's Crime, Gigapede, Thoughtseize). The more significant issue would be easier Intuition piles (Loam, Stronghold, Wasteland/Raven's Crime). Even then, however, we're not talking about an immediate return, and it will still take up a land drop--a vulnerable drop, to boot (Wasteland, opposing Strongholds, Blood Moon-effects, etc.). It's also worth noting that fetching out Stronghold with Intuition means that you (generally) start getting your creatures a full turn later than you would with Genesis, which can be an important factor--especially if you consider that you're sacrificing (Genesis')card advantage.


That said, running both is always an option.



1 Gigapede

I hope the only reason you are playing this is because it is probably your best discard outlet. Otherwise it cost way too much mana. There are better cheaper ways to win late games.


Gigapede has been the subject of much testing, and I have to categorically disagree with you here. There are indeed better ways to win late games, but how many require only a single slot? Also, consider the fact that it's an untargetable, Tarmogoyf-killing insect that comes back turn after turn AND gives you a discard outlet while also providing a certain amount of resiliency against hate (such as Crypt, Extirpate, etc.). The high casting cost protects it from Counterbalance, Deed, and EE. It is an amazing inclusion in this deck, and bears a ridiculous amount of synergy. Granted, it's even better with Wonder, and so loses a little of its glory without it; but not much, and I'm not quite sold on cutting Wonder quite yet.




1 Eternal Witness

Not completely horrible but it cost so much mana to 2G (Genesis) 1GG (Witness) and then X (play the card) it seems very slow and just casting cards that do things in the same turn you play them seems better.



You've mistaken the purpose of Eternal Witness. I almost never recur it with Genesis because, as you said, it costs too much. Instead, I tend to use it as recursion outside of the Genesis loop: need a card back ASAP? Get it with Witness instead. That it can do cool things with Genesis is just a neat extra feature.



3 Brainstorm

How about 4 Brainstorms and 3 Ponder....


I've explained why I feel Ponder is superior to Brainstorm here. If you disagree, you're going to have to explain why. With a better, more resilient manabase, I might agree with you.



Intuition


Is 4 really needed? I think you designed your deck so that it relies to much on intuition if you take out some of the situational 1 off cards you could cut 1, because really if you resolve 1 in the mid-game vs an non-aggro deck you should win.



I don't necessarily disagree. I've wondered the same myself.




Can't argue too much although it seems like how heavy intuition your deck is you would get into the late game more than normal in which something else might be better? I think I just hate Daze and your choice is correct.


I don't much like Daze either, as I've said. As you'll see in a moment I'm currently testing Spell Snare, but I'm not liking it all that much. Which leaves us with what? Mana Leak and Misdirection? Eww. :tongue:



With all that being said, your points are good ones, and they've given me some ideas of directions that can be pushed in to increase consistency, redundancy, and... well, awesomeness. I'm currently testing the list below, with some promising preliminary results.


Lands (19)

3 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Volrath's Stronghold


Creatures (13)

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Shriekmaw
1 Wonder
1 Genesis
1 Gigapede
1 Stinkweed Imp


Spells (28)

3 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Thoughtseize
3 Snuff Out
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Raven's Crime


Sideboard (15)

3 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Extirpate
4 Krosan Grip
3 Crime/Punishment
1 Worm Harvest / Gaea’s Blessing/Dread (open metagame slot)


There are a couple interaction questions with the build, some obvious ones being concerns with Genesis and Stronghold being too redundant, and similarly with Stinkweed Imp and Wonder, or the manabase being even more vulnerable to hate than it was (this is my biggest concern at the moment; Daze might even be more desirable again because of it). I don't really know what the definitive answers are yet: that requires more detailed testing, but I invite you all to help, and I'll let you know my own findings as they come up.

darkalucard
10-28-2008, 01:44 AM
@ Goaswerfraiejen

Basic Lands
Against re-curring Wasteland you do have Loam to never miss a land drop. Also you do not need double Green or Black to cast your creatures. I am happy that you are testing -1 Swamp -1 Forest +2 Wasteland.

Mana Base
Also I think your mana-base is just as good since all you did was cut 2x non-blue source for 2x non-blue source.
Also I would personally go -1 Bayou -1 Heath +2 Delta.
And are you sure 19 lands is enough? I haven't tested you list allot but I was just wondering your opinion on how many lands to play. I'm currently testing 21 in my version.

Genesis VS. Volrath
What my point was that against every deck other than "ITF" Volrath will still beat your opponent and you do not need the extra draw. The only time Genesis especially shines in against "ITF" which you have Wasteland and Ravens Crime and they don't so you should win anyways.

Basically if you play only Volrath you can cut:
1 Cephalid Coliseum (you could play lonely sandbar to re-cur wasteland?)
1 Wonder
1 Gigapede

These are all good cards in your build but it seems like they are so rediculouslly good because of the synergy with only each other. For example I don't think you would play any of these cards by themselves and that they need other cards to become good.

1 Eternal Witness
If it's not to search for then why are you playing it as a 1-of and not 2-3-of?
I thought since it was a 1-of it was to Intuition for. Maybe I'm still really confused on this slot. I cut it because most of the time I ended up just shuffling it away with brainstorm or being mad because it cost 1GG.

Daze
Yeah it seems like it's a necasarry evil. My deck is a bit slower than yours as I like to avoid playing it at all. Spell Snare is really good in a very competative meta-game but at smaller less competative tournaments I run counterspell. Which I'm not always happy with and it obviously doesn't belong in this deck.

Anyways...
I'm glad to see you testing some of our brainstorming and am very intrested to see how the changes play out in testing. Let me know what you think.

Swing4Five
10-28-2008, 03:44 PM
I tried building a Grb Control Loam backed by P. Deed deck a while back and ended up reverting back to a few cards away from the typical Aggro Loam list.

I'm going to toy with this list when I get a chance. Although I'll probably go -1 Wonder -3 Spell Snare, +1 Snuff Out, +3 Daze from your most recent build.

You've also given me some ideas to go back and try to revamp the old list I was working on, maybe a different route for Gur.

Edit: and thanks for the great primer. :-P

HedleyKow
10-28-2008, 05:04 PM
Have you considered, or tried, counterbalance in the daze/spellsnare slot? Obviously you'd have to make room for top as well, and make sure the mana base can support a turn 2 counterbalance more easily, but counterbalance is just so good. Would force you to only run 1 forest/swamp(which is think is better anyway), probably only 1 wasteland, and possibly not run volrath.

Also, I'm not sure about snuff out. How has it tested thus far? Seems like the life loss might be a bit too much for this deck.

Hanni
10-28-2008, 05:16 PM
@ Goaswerfraiejen

Basic Lands
Against re-curring Wasteland you do have Loam to never miss a land drop. Also you do not need double Green or Black to cast your creatures. I am happy that you are testing -1 Swamp -1 Forest +2 Wasteland.

Mana Base
Also I think your mana-base is just as good since all you did was cut 2x non-blue source for 2x non-blue source.
Also I would personally go -1 Bayou -1 Heath +2 Delta.
And are you sure 19 lands is enough? I haven't tested you list allot but I was just wondering your opinion on how many lands to play. I'm currently testing 21 in my version.

Genesis VS. Volrath
What my point was that against every deck other than "ITF" Volrath will still beat your opponent and you do not need the extra draw. The only time Genesis especially shines in against "ITF" which you have Wasteland and Ravens Crime and they don't so you should win anyways.

Basically if you play only Volrath you can cut:
1 Cephalid Coliseum (you could play lonely sandbar to re-cur wasteland?)
1 Wonder
1 Gigapede

These are all good cards in your build but it seems like they are so rediculouslly good because of the synergy with only each other. For example I don't think you would play any of these cards by themselves and that they need other cards to become good.

1 Eternal Witness
If it's not to search for then why are you playing it as a 1-of and not 2-3-of?
I thought since it was a 1-of it was to Intuition for. Maybe I'm still really confused on this slot. I cut it because most of the time I ended up just shuffling it away with brainstorm or being mad because it cost 1GG.

Daze
Yeah it seems like it's a necasarry evil. My deck is a bit slower than yours as I like to avoid playing it at all. Spell Snare is really good in a very competative meta-game but at smaller less competative tournaments I run counterspell. Which I'm not always happy with and it obviously doesn't belong in this deck.

Anyways...
I'm glad to see you testing some of our brainstorming and am very intrested to see how the changes play out in testing. Let me know what you think.

I don't think multiple Wastelands is a good idea, since the only time the deck really wants to use it is simply as a Wastelock, not for tempo. Wasteland sets the deck back a land drop permanently (as opposed to Daze), and this deck needs to operate on a higher land count to use its control portions.

I do agree that double Forest and double Swamp is unecessary though.

19 lands is in fact enough. When the deck doesn't hit Intuition/Loam/Genesis/Deed, it plays just like Threshold, which operates on even just 17 lands. When the deck does go into control mode, it uses Loam. 19 lands and 8 cantrips is enough to hit 3 lands consistently for Intuition, which then grabs Loam, which propels the deck (on average) to 5 lands in a single cast. Beyond that, excess land drops would waste business spell spots, where you're getting infinite land drops via Loam anyway.

In a deck like ITF, which doesn't have a low curve Threshold early gameplan, they need more lands. This deck is different, though.

Volrath's Stronghold is only better against other decks when you have Counterbalance. Otherwise, it's worse than Genesis. Putting a creature on top of library instant speed is unecessary since you want to cast the creature during the mainphase anyway.

Volrath's Stronghold puts creatures on top of library, so all you are doing is continually drawing into a creature until one finally sticks. Unless you are playing against a control deck like Landstill where you need inevitability like that, it's effect is very lackluster.

Genesis allows the deck to still draw a card for the turn, but also draws the card a creature from the graveyard. The card advantage is the entire reason why the recur effect is good. Volrath's Stronghold is simply subpar to Genesis.

In fact, much of the deck revolves around card advantage. Typically Pernicious Deed at least 2-for-1's, Loam is (usually) +2 CA, and Genesis is +1 CA. Card advantage actually does win games, and I believe Landstill is willing to agree with that.

I do agree that Wasteland/Raven's Crime is strong against control decks. Along with Gigapede, those 3 cards make the control matchup a very good matchup.

I completely disagree with your sentiments about Coliseum, Wonder, and especially Gigapede.

Gigapede is this decks finisher. Gigapede is vastly superior to other finishers like Mystic Enforcer, because it is almost impossible to get to rid of and is huge at 6/1 (almost always trades with Goyf). Gigapede dodges EE, Counterbalance, and dodges my own cast Pernicious Deeds (usually). Toss him a Wonder and he's more than likely going to end the game in 3 or less turns.

Wonder gives all of the creatures in the deck flying, which is extremely good. If you play the deck a few handful of times, you'll find that flying wins games alot.

Coliseum is the weakest of the 3 cards mentioned, and is very rarely used. However, it is a necessary evil to have a land that can discard Genesis/Wonder. It diversifies recur packages against graveyard hate in games 2 and 3 (Coliseum/Genesis and Gigapede). It also ups the land count by 1, which means if you drop it, it should be replaced by another land anyway. I suppose Volrath's Stronghold could be argued for the spot but I think Cephalid Coliseum is more useful to the deck. In the lategame against control decks (once you have enough land drops), using extra mana to Loam/Coliseum isn't bad, either.

I personally don't use Eternal Witness, so no comment there.

Daze is a critical elemental to this deck. Who cares if Daze sets the deck back a land drop... the deck is Threshold before it's Landstill. It needs Daze to play the Threshold role effectively early, simple as that. The deck has sufficient control spells that make Daze mostly irrelevant mid-late anyway.

---

And my current build is actually:

U/G/b Intuition Thresh

Lands (19)
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Wasteland

Creatures (14)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Gigapede
3 Shriekmaw
1 Wonder
1 Genesis

Spells (27)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Thoughtseize
1 Raven's Crime
3 Pernicious Deed

Sideboard (15)
4 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Duress
4 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Stinkweed Imp

Just a few minor changes, but relevant nonetheless. Raven's Crime sucks early game but is a powerhouse mid-late, which warrants its inclusion. BEB has been more useful to me overall than Duress, so I went to 4/2 from 3/3. Extirpate is still a controversial spot, though I think it's overall utility (for the type of deck that this is), is better than stronger graveyard hate like Tormod's Crypt.


Have you considered, or tried, counterbalance in the daze/spellsnare slot? Obviously you'd have to make room for top as well, and make sure the mana base can support a turn 2 counterbalance more easily, but counterbalance is just so good. Would force you to only run 1 forest/swamp(which is think is better anyway), probably only 1 wasteland, and possibly not run volrath.

A combination of Ponder/Thoughtseize/Daze could be dropped for CounterTop, but I'll explain why I don't like it in this deck. Yes, CounterTop is very strong. Yes, alot of decks have problems against CounterTop. The problem is, Counterbalance has negative synergy with the deck (Deed), and the curve for this deck is a little high to be accurately effective without Top (except against ITF, I guess). The deck has creature recursion to negate Deed for the aggro plan, but does not have enchantment recursion for the control plan.

Instead of assembling a CounterTop lock, this deck uses Loam/Genesis/Deed to create actual card advantage instead of virtual card advantage. The deck also has Wasteland/Raven's Crime to put a lock (albeit a different lock) on the opponent.

Trying to work Counterbalance into this deck requires the deck to completely distort other synergistic interactions to make it stronger, i.e Volrath's Stronghold to replace Genesis, etc.

This does not mean that Counterbalance is not a very very strong card, it means that Counterbalance doesn't need to go in every deck with blue. If you want to play this deck with Counterbalance, I suggest playing ITF, because that is the deck for you.

Omega
10-28-2008, 06:03 PM
would you consider CB in SB as a way of countering Burn deck or Goyf Sligh? They go rampant in my meta, thus the reason why im not playing decks without CB/top

Chill could be a solution too, if you dont want to to play cb.

Robert

Hanni
10-28-2008, 06:12 PM
There was a time when I did consider Counterbalance in the sideboard for the burn matchup, but ultimately decided to go with Blue Elemental Blast. BEB/Duress combined with FoW/Daze should usually buy enough time for the aggro beats to kill the opponent. CounterTop was also really clunky to fit in the sideboard, since it requires 7 slots to be effective.

BEB is also very strong against Goblins and Dragon Stompy, while being useful against several other matchups.

Dark_Cynic87
10-30-2008, 01:03 PM
Would this be a better choice over say Swan and Moon Thresh or UGr Thrash?

I have most of the cards, but what does this improve on? What kind of a mirror match? Combo MU?

Maybe I missed it in the opening post (kinda long...nice work, I just don't quite have the time to read it anymore)...If it's there, just tell me the section if you would. Sorry to not be contributing much (read: any, yet).

Have you thought about Recollect as a helpful Intuition target? Possibly Reclaim? IDK, maybe it's no good, but I think it's not horrible...

Pce,

--DC

thefreakaccident
10-30-2008, 01:29 PM
Would this be a better choice over say Swan and Moon Thresh or UGr Thrash?

I have most of the cards, but what does this improve on? What kind of a mirror match? Combo MU?

Maybe I missed it in the opening post (kinda long...nice work, I just don't quite have the time to read it anymore)...If it's there, just tell me the section if you would. Sorry to not be contributing much (read: any, yet).

Have you thought about Recollect as a helpful Intuition target? Possibly Reclaim? IDK, maybe it's no good, but I think it's not horrible...

Pce,

--DC

The idea is that it is threshold w/ a strong lategame with recursive properties and tutors to make this possible... it gives you inevitability.

Elf_Ascetic
10-30-2008, 01:38 PM
Would this be a better choice over say Swan and Moon Thresh or UGr Thrash?

I have most of the cards, but what does this improve on? What kind of a mirror match? Combo MU?

Maybe I missed it in the opening post (kinda long...nice work, I just don't quite have the time to read it anymore)...If it's there, just tell me the section if you would. Sorry to not be contributing much (read: any, yet).


This deck has decribed it's match-ups honesly (like not having a positive matchup vs the rest of the field)(props on that, Goas and Hanni) but it has the same strenghts and weaknesses as threshold - I speak for Balanced UGB and UGWB now. The controlmatchup is slightly better, the combomatchup slightly worse.

BreathWeapon
11-02-2008, 12:32 AM
Good to see the primer, the only "bitch" I have with it tho' is you seem to ignore Shriekmaw's inability to remove Phyrexian Dreadnought and Dreadstill has proven itself to be a legitimate deck.

Hanni
11-02-2008, 03:59 AM
Just for the record, I started the primer but Goas finished it; i.e he added far more content than I did. Distinctly, my matchup %'s vary from what Goas stated: better for some, worse for others. However, I agree with almost everything else.


Good to see the primer, the only "bitch" I have with it tho' is you seem to ignore Shriekmaw's inability to remove Phyrexian Dreadnought and Dreadstill has proven itself to be a legitimate deck.

I agree with you. Dreadstill is a very good deck and this deck has problems against Dreadstill (and other Dreadnought decks). The problem is that, right now, there are very few "good" alternatives to improve the matchup. By replacing Shriekmaw with Smother, the deck loses synergy between Genesis and Shriekmaw against all other matchups, and Smother still doesn't answer Tombstalker.

The simple fact is that the deck has to have a bad matchup or matchups somewhere, and Dreadstill happens to be one of those matchups. The best way to counteract this is to sideboard appropriately, with cards like Krosan Grip and Engineered Explosives doing a very good job.

Against everything else, Shriekmaw is MVP. It destroys the most common creature in the format for 2cc (Goyf), which is similar to other removal options, and has the ability to provide card advantage (think Flametongue Kavu). The fact that it can be recurred is important against certain matchups; the fact that it trumps Bridge from Below against Ichorid is also valuable.

The best "overall" solution is to go 4c and splash white for Swords to Plowshares, which is not out of the question. What is the question, though, is whether or not mana instability and a small loss in synergy is worth the small gain. That is up to each individual, as well as the specific metagame. If Dreadnought based decks are speculated to be a large percentage of the metagame, I'd probably consider a different deck honestly.

I do appreciate the feedback though, and you are dead on with your assumptions.

EDIT: And for the record, this is still my favorite deck. It has everything I want, conveniently packed into one awesome deck with the best (IMO) color combination in Legacy. It is very consistent, much like typical Threshold, with strong backup plans when things get out of whack. It's also amazing in multiplayer games, which makes it an all-around great deck to build IRL.

Infinitium
11-02-2008, 05:47 AM
Well, since you don't have red for Ancient Grudge and already run Gigapede.. I'm going to rip an idea from Finn and suggest Carrionette. Obviously slow, easily played around once the opponent knows it's there and jank in anything but the midgame but it's effectively a tutorable black removal spell that can deal with early Tombstalkers/Dreadnaughts.

BreathWeapon
11-02-2008, 03:00 PM
@Hanni, while that's reasonable, I think we could look into alternatives ala Executioner's Capsule and diversify our removal a little.

Goaswerfraiejen
11-02-2008, 04:00 PM
@Hanni, while that's reasonable, I think we could look into alternatives ala Executioner's Capsule and diversify our removal a little.

Capsule doesn't really diversify at all, and is vulnerable to even more than Shriekmaw. Snuff Out is a better diversification option, and it's serving well in my testing so far. But more on that later.

BreathWeapon
11-02-2008, 05:31 PM
Capsule doesn't really diversify at all, and is vulnerable to even more than Shriekmaw. Snuff Out is a better diversification option, and it's serving well in my testing so far. But more on that later.

The only real difference between Shriekmaw and Executioner's Capsule is the latter can't be targeted with Pithing Needle and Krosan Grip, it's a fair trade off tho' for Phyrexian Dreadnought.

Snuff Out seems reasonable, I'll give it a shot.

Goaswerfraiejen
11-02-2008, 05:55 PM
The only real difference between Shriekmaw and Executioner's Capsule is the latter can't be targeted with Pithing Needle and Krosan Grip, it's a fair trade off tho' for Phyrexian Dreadnought.

Snuff Out seems reasonable, I'll give it a shot.

You mean the "former". :wink:

That aside, there are two more singificant differences: Capsule is very vulnerable to Counterbalance, and its recursion doesn't fit into the deck very well. It might be possible to work in one Ruins, but I'd remain just a tad concerned about the manabase. On the other hand, that makes EE a rather nice sideboard choice. Let us know how it pans out.

If Dreadnought is the main motivation for using the Capsule, I'd be equally worried about Capsule being just as vulnerable to Stifle and Trickbind. I'm definitely leaning more towards Snuff Out. Having the option to play it for free is really quite something, in a deck that's so mana-intensive.

EDIT: Or... Bone Splinters. (Just kidding)

darkalucard
11-02-2008, 07:32 PM
There is now a re-currable Edict:


Fleshbag Marauder

2B

Creature - Zombie Warrior

When Fleshbag Marauder comes into play, each player sacrifices a creature.

3/1

I don't like capsule or shriekmaw, and in my slower version I run shackles. But I've been thinking about this card and Stinkweed Imp as when I lose it's usually to a Black or Pro Black creature. This card may deserve some testing.

mackaber
11-03-2008, 04:55 AM
Capsule doesn't really diversify at all, and is vulnerable to even more than Shriekmaw. Snuff Out is a better diversification option, and it's serving well in my testing so far. But more on that later.
After having tested Captain America extensively I've started to test Snuff Out in here as well and I must say it works like a charm. Get's kind of annoying with Seizes and fetches though so I doubt you can run more than 3 or more than 3 seizes. Is there any way to build some lifegain into the dec? Thinking Baloth as a one of but seems kinda meh.

darkalucard
11-03-2008, 12:51 PM
@mackaber

I don't think you should play life gain just to make Thoughtseize and Snuff Out more playable, it seems like a bad excuse to play cards that don't belong in the deck. Anyways...

Snuff Out

I've been testing also and it's very nice. Sometimes Intuition for 3x Snuff Outs has kinda saved me. Also it's very cool b/c it's good against Counterbalance. The lifeloss doesnt really hurt since sometimes it can save some life for comming out earlier than removal normally can b/c it's free. Like playing Goyf and Snuff Out on T2 is cool.

But after testing it for a while now I've been discouraged b/c I've been having problems against Dark Confidant and Nantuko Shade. Now smother can kill both of these but Smother cannot kill "Turn 1 Lackey" or some of Dragon Stompy's creatures. Currently I'm more scared of a Dark Confidant drawing lots of cards (which beats me) and have moved to testing Smother.

Spell Snare VS. Thoughtseize

I think that the low for blue spells for Force of Will is 16-17 but if you often are forced to SB out a few blue spells you may need more to make Force of Will castable more often. And so I have tried to up to 20 blue spells.

I cut Thoughtseize for Spell Snare;
What are the major match-ups where I will definately be missing this card? Combo?
I haven't really missed it and like that Spell Snare can counter opponents Top-Decks while Thoughtseize cannot.

I would like to know everyone elses thoughts on:
Spell Snare in this deck. (Or Simular Decks)
And the Importance of Thoughtseize.

BreathWeapon
11-03-2008, 01:52 PM
I wouldn't play this deck with out Thought Seize, you want/need pro-active disruption for resolving Pernicious Deed. I cut Snuff Out because the 4 damage just sends the Goblin and Burn match ups down the shitter.

darkalucard
11-03-2008, 02:45 PM
Understandable but what are these decks that we need to resolve cards like deed against by using Thoughtseize that we don't already crush?

Do you really think then that the 4 life loss is worse than no answer to T1 Lackey? I guess it's probably not worth it, your obviouslly right about the goyf/sligh type match-ups though.

Dark_Cynic87
11-03-2008, 03:02 PM
What are the main reasons thoughtseize is played? If it's mainly to ensure a resolved Deed, why would Duress not be acceptable? I understand you like the option of making them discard a Goyf/Mongoose/Nought/Stalker/Etc., but I think Snuff Out can handle the creature that duress doesn't make them toss in the occasion of them not having anything else extremely relevant in their hand, while keeping the functionality of the discard spell relevant in every other respect. A nerfed Duress just means your Deed is a go.

Pce,

--DC

Elf_Ascetic
11-04-2008, 05:30 AM
In 4C Thresh, we have had the Snare vs Seize discussion a lot of times. The reason, or at least, my reason to play TS is that it helps in your difficult match-ups: Loam, Muc (with Sowers and stuff), Staxx, Eva Green and anything that runs Intuition and/or Deed. (btw: It takes tombstalkers ;)). Thereby, it's slightly better against combo, since it can take a Chant or Ad, both cards that Spell Snare doesn't counter.

mackaber
11-04-2008, 10:03 AM
I really don't think Thoughtseize is a card that should be discussed. It's a cornerstone of the dec and imo the best Black spell in the format (if it's better than DC is arguable). The only question regarding Thoughtseize is if 4 is perhaps too many since it's not a good late game topdec. The only MU in which it sucks is Burn and that is negible.

BreathWeapon
11-11-2008, 10:36 PM
Just curious, does any one else think there's merit in cutting Nimble Mongoose and Wonder for Tombstalkers and turning the deck into a more controlling and mid/end game version of Team America? Instead of aiming for Stifle and Sinkhole, we aim for Intuition and the Wasteland/Raven's Crime lock or just recur threats until we GG. The Intuition, Life from the Loam and Cephalid Coliseum draw engine or Life from the Loam and Raven's Crime lock just has so much synergy with Tombstalker, I can't think of a good reason not to be running him.

darkalucard
11-12-2008, 02:01 AM
Don't do it! Because then you'll be playing my deck.

And nobody's allowed to play my deck...

But seriously Tombstalker is the 2nd best creature in the game of magic.

Nihil Credo
11-12-2008, 04:54 AM
Just curious, does any one else think there's merit in cutting Nimble Mongoose and Wonder for Tombstalkers and turning the deck into a more controlling and mid/end game version of Team America? Instead of aiming for Stifle and Sinkhole, we aim for Intuition and the Wasteland/Raven's Crime lock or just recur threats until we GG. The Intuition, Life from the Loam and Cephalid Coliseum draw engine or Life from the Loam and Raven's Crime lock just has so much synergy with Tombstalker, I can't think of a good reason not to be running him.
Just as in Survival, cutting Nimble Mongoose for more high-end creatures will cost you significatively against Goblins (and similar aggro decks - Elves etc.) and very slightly against combo, while paying off almost everywhere else.

mackaber
11-12-2008, 07:47 AM
Just curious, does any one else think there's merit in cutting Nimble Mongoose and Wonder for Tombstalkers and turning the deck into a more controlling and mid/end game version of Team America? Instead of aiming for Stifle and Sinkhole, we aim for Intuition and the Wasteland/Raven's Crime lock or just recur threats until we GG. The Intuition, Life from the Loam and Cephalid Coliseum draw engine or Life from the Loam and Raven's Crime lock just has so much synergy with Tombstalker, I can't think of a good reason not to be running him.

I actually have tested that yeah. I was also incorporating CB into that list and I really couldn't get it to work. Problem is that here your grave matters so that tombstalker can't be played as aggresively as in TA. Also you'd weaken your Goblins MU but also your Landstill MU since this is where mongoose really shines. So I'd propose changes along theses lines.

- 4 mungo
- 1 Wonder
- 1 Genesis?

+ 3 Tombstalker (My impression from playing TA is that 4 is too many)
+ 3 Spell Snare?

BreathWeapon
11-12-2008, 01:23 PM
I just finished testing it and it looked promising, the Goblins match up did suffer, but the Combo match up improved because Tombstalker was a much faster clock than Nimble Mongoose. The Control match up was about the same, you may not have Shroud for Swords to Plowshares but you do have a CC for Pernicious Deed, and the 5/5 Flyer is so hard for them to deal with.

Edit: My threat composition was 4 Tarmogoyf, 3 Tombstalker and 1 Gigapede with -4 Nimble Mongoose, -1 Genesis and -1 Wonder.

Goaswerfraiejen
11-13-2008, 05:16 PM
Just going to say a few things.


Snuff Out has really been working out very well for me, and I think it’s a keeper. It doesn’t stop Tombstalker, but being free if you want is a huge bonus.
3x Wasteland has its ups, the main one being that you no longer (usually) need to fetch it out with Intuition. I’m not enamoured with the manabase, however, and the Wastelands make it a little shaky. If I’m facing mana-hate of some sort, Wasteland becomes a liability.
The manabase I was testing just doesn’t satisfy me: it caves to only a slight amount of hate, and with Team America and the like cropping up so much more often, I really can’t say that I’m inspired with confidence. I’m going to tinker a bit more, but I’d appreciate input on what would make for a generally steadier manabase. Relying on a single Life from the Loam just doesn’t cut it, so don’t mention that: I know ITF claims it’s enough, but it’s really not. It’s just too slow to fetch it out. It’s possible, however, that another LftL might make a difference: I’m not sure.
I still feel as I did about Volrath’s Stronghold. With both Stronghold and Genesis, however, the deck is pretty fearsome. If both are available, however, Genesis has tended to prove more useful.



After having tested Captain America extensively I've started to test Snuff Out in here as well and I must say it works like a charm. Get's kind of annoying with Seizes and fetches though so I doubt you can run more than 3 or more than 3 seizes. Is there any way to build some lifegain into the dec? Thinking Baloth as a one of but seems kinda meh.

The easiest way to build in life gain would be a single Darkheart Sliver or--dare I say it?--Spore Frog. I tried Darkheart Sliver before, and it was just too gimmicky to keep. Spore Frog might be a way to help with Goblins, Aggro-Loam, and Goyf-Sligh, but on paper it also looks gimmicky. It looks like it would need at least three slots somewhere to be particularly effective there, and I doubt I want to devote more than one slot to it. It would be a rather amusing solution to Ichorid, however.

As for Thoughtseize, I really don’t think that the fourth Thoughtseize is better than Raven’s Crime. Raven’s Crime has proven to be an amazing resource despite my initial skepticism, and it’s far more effective as Thoughtseize #4.


What are the main reasons thoughtseize is played? If it's mainly to ensure a resolved Deed, why would Duress not be acceptable? I understand you like the option of making them discard a Goyf/Mongoose/Nought/Stalker/Etc., but I think Snuff Out can handle the creature that duress doesn't make them toss in the occasion of them not having anything else extremely relevant in their hand, while keeping the functionality of the discard spell relevant in every other respect. A nerfed Duress just means your Deed is a go.

Pce,

--DC

Duress is an adequate replacement, but the real reason to run Thoughtseize is to add to your removal package. With only 3 ‘Seizes, I think that the life loss is acceptable. Generally, you will want to cast a maximum of two ‘Seizes per game anyway, with Raven’s Crime filling in later and your remaining ‘Seizes being discarded to Coliseum/dredged away.



Just curious, does any one else think there's merit in cutting Nimble Mongoose and Wonder for Tombstalkers and turning the deck into a more controlling and mid/end game version of Team America? Instead of aiming for Stifle and Sinkhole, we aim for Intuition and the Wasteland/Raven's Crime lock or just recur threats until we GG. The Intuition, Life from the Loam and Cephalid Coliseum draw engine or Life from the Loam and Raven's Crime lock just has so much synergy with Tombstalker, I can't think of a good reason not to be running him.

I tested that out this morning, but found that Team America just has a better gameplan if you go that route, simply because the mana denial strategy makes it so much harder to answer Tombstalker. I’m not sure what you mean by the Loam-locks having synergy with Tombstalker... more often than not, I found them to deter me from playing the big guy. You’re right that you can put a lot into the graveyard that way, but that’s more of a late-game tactic than anything else. I wouldn’t mind having maybe two hanging around for that purpose, but then it seems to me that using Wonder to make things fly is just as easy at that point in the game, and far more devastating. Tombstalker’s high cost also makes it harder to cast after grave-hate has been employed. I dunno, I’m not convinced. I think that Team America just does Tombstalker a whole lot better.

Finally, I don’t think that there’s actually much of a payoff. Not based on the limited testing I did this morning, anyway. The combo boost was negligible, simply because it does nothing to fend off the initial combo, which is my main concern anyway. Once that’s done, it’s easy enough to cruise to victory. Speeding it up by a turn just isn’t a significant boon. It also weakened the deck against ITF (Shackles and StP), Team America, Landstill, and, surprisingly, Threshold (edicts were far more effective, StP was horrible, and I didn’t have enough control to handle counterspells and so on, especially if Counterbalance resolved). Protecting Tombstalker is just too hard unless you smack your opponent’s manabase around, I think.

It would be feasible to cut Wonder and Genesis for two Tombstalkers, and that might work out. It’s basically a permanent Psychatog, after all. If that’s the case, I think I’d like to find some extra room for another Life from the Loam, or other card with Dredge. I’ll look into it and give it a whirl.

Don’t let me discourage you, though. If Tombstalker seems to be working, I’d love to hear about it, and how exactly he’s working. Maybe I’m just too hesitant with him in my playstyle.

Solknar
11-20-2008, 04:22 PM
First I Must mentionned that I am a Huuuuge fan of intution loam deck (I helped Sakimmd to create togless, as mentionned is this topic (I am Thomas Epelbaum). but since I don't play as well as him and not have time to do as much tournament... history only remeber winners...long story short^^)

then, I must add that I basically agree with all darkalucard said: i find the deck too dependent on intuition and thus on the graveyard. because you rely quite a lot on genesis, you are more sensible to graveyard hate than every other intuition loam deck (ITF, togless). sure, those decks have the same vulnerability when lftl is on the yard, but they don't have "dead cards" if genesis is not on the yard.

Wonder? as said, it's the worst topdeck possible
GIgapede? sure it's a good card, but stalker is cheaper, fly without wonder...
cephalid colliseum? you still play only 19 lands, and if the lftl engine is shut down, that will be a bad island that SOMETIME cycle one or two lands.

And I think this must be take into account very seriously since every decent deck packs a lot of graveyard hate (ichorid has rule legacy during several months).

IMO, the deck should play 21 lands with 4 waste and 1 volrath.

with the free slots, they are several option:
- stalker, this guy doesn't need presentation.
- bob: if we take out genesis, one of the CA engine is shut down. why not include this one? the deck kills fast enough, so the life loss is not so relevant (about 1.5 per turn in average)
- I wonder if, because we already play 4 waste, the mana denial plan could fit here. this means 4 stifle -> 4 nought 2 trickbind. I know this sounds weird, but in a metagame infest of blood moon effect, 12/12 and blast( I play a heavy survival goyf sligh dreadstill like metagame), this looks like a strong plan B.

my list:
-4 polluted
-2 flooded
-1 island
-1 swamp
-4 tropical
-4 underground
-4 waste
-1 volrath

-4 tarmo
-4 bob
-4 nought
-1 imp (this guy steals a TON of games)

-3 deed

-4 brainstorm
-3 intuition

-1 lftl
-1 raven's crime

-4 Fow
-4 stifle
-4 daze
-2 trickbind

if the plan is more to fit with the original spirit of the list:

-4 polluted
-2 wooded
-1 windseapth
-1 forest
-1 island
-1 swamp
-3 tropical
-3 underground
-4 waste
-1 volrath

-4 tarmo
-4 bob
-4 mangoose
-1 imp

-3 deed

-4 brainstorm
-3 intuition

-1 lftl
-1 raven's crime

-4 Fow
-3 spell snare
-4 daze
-3 seize

only 18 blue cards in the second list..

Goaswerfraiejen
11-20-2008, 08:40 PM
Thank you for your comments, Solknar. I disagree with most, but that doesn't mean they're not appreciated. If you're currently playing some version of the deck, I'd like to hear about your testing results.




then, I must add that I basically agree with all darkalucard said: i find the deck too dependent on intuition and thus on the graveyard. because you rely quite a lot on genesis, you are more sensible to graveyard hate than every other intuition loam deck (ITF, togless). sure, those decks have the same vulnerability when lftl is on the yard, but they don't have "dead cards" if genesis is not on the yard.
[/b]

No cards are dead if Genesis is not in the yard; you just can't recur things. Similarly, you can't recur things with Stronghold unless you have dead creatures. You'll notice that the version that I'm currently playing runs Stronghold in addition to Genesis. The problem is that Stronghold eats a draw, and this loss of card advantage, while insignificant over a turn, becomes VERY serious if it's repeated over several turns (e.g. recurring Shriekmaw). I actually think that running both is best.


Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "reliance on Intuition". Intuition helps the deck to steamroll its opponent; that's the whole point of running it, and so some sort of reliance is to be expected. The deck runs perfectly well without casting Intuition (thanks to the cantrip engine and similarity to Threshold), but being able to cast it helps it to react (or pre-act) that much more efficiently. If we look at the lists you posted, for example, I don't see much reason to be running Intuition at all: it's become a glorified cantrip, but perhaps less consistent in its effect on the game-state.



Wonder? as said, it's the worst topdeck possible


As said by who? Hanni and I have tested the most with this deck: I think it's fair to say we each have more experience with it than most posters here combined. We've provided reasons why we feel it's so good; the onus is on you to show us why not. I can tell you that I've often tested without it, and I always go back to it, for reasons that I've mentioned extensively.

The one exception I can see is if it's decided that we should run Tombstalker; in that case, running Wonder wouldn't really be feasible or necessary any more. But, as I've mentioned, I have reasons to doubt that Tombstalker is the way to go.


GIgapede? sure it's a good card, but stalker is cheaper, fly without wonder...

Tombstalker is not cheaper: yes, you can delve for it, but it requires you to sacrifice potential resources in your graveyard. You must also consider that this deck doesn't put things in the graveyard quite as fast as Threshold or Team America, meaning that Tombstalker is going to come out later and eat up significant graveyard resources. This deck also doesn't have the same resources as TA for capitalizing on/protecting Tombstalker.

Hanni and I have explained at length our reasons for running Gigapede. I don't see that any of these have yet been compromised.



cephalid colliseum? you still play only 19 lands, and if the lftl engine is shut down, that will be a bad island that SOMETIME cycle one or two lands.

You seem to be assuming that the deck relies on Coliseum rather heavily; Coliseum pulls its weight even if you can't recur it by performing one of two functions:

1.) Discarding Incarnations (obviously).
2.) Acting as a card quality filter. Cards like Thoughtseize, for example, are useless in the late game, when Raven's Crime is simply better. Coliseum allows you to trade cards that don't work in a certain situation for cards that will. Or, rather, it brings you closer to cards that will, and usually nabs at least one (such as a threat). Cycling lands are simply inefficient because they take up slots, come into play tapped, and can't really be played as lands.



And I think this must be take into account very seriously since every decent deck packs a lot of graveyard hate (ichorid has rule legacy during several months).

This deck can run pretty well without a graveyard, and we've explained how and why. Yes, there are difficulties with hate--that's the case for any deck--but they can be dealt with pretty easily. The only really graveyard-dependent part of the deck is the recursion that enables an extended control role: the version I'm currently testing, you'll notice, gets around that by running Stronghold in addition to Genesis. That's the most that can be done, however: even Stronghold can't recur creatures that have been removed from the graveyard. You just have to play around the hate, and that's not all that hard. Part of the reason for that, in fact, is that you can tutor up a Wonder for a massive Tarmogoyf strike at any moment, an advantage obviously lost if the card is cut.



IMO, the deck should play 21 lands with 4 waste and 1 volrath.

I'm currently running 3 Wastelands and 1 Stronghold (as well as Genesis). Already, this is rough on the manabase, and significantly weakens matches against decks that hate the manabase. 4 Wastelands would be too much for too little payoff, in my opinion. 3 works, but I think it needs an overhaul.



with the free slots, they are several option:
- stalker, this guy doesn't need presentation.


I'd like to see a presentation, actually. I've tested with Tombstalker in early incarnations of the deck and recently, and I've presented a case against using it as a main creature. As a Psychatog replacement (so, maybe a 2-of), maybe. Any more than that, though, and I think that we're really compromising the deck's integrity to achieve things that other decks already do better.



- bob: if we take out genesis, one of the CA engine is shut down. why not include this one? the deck kills fast enough, so the life loss is not so relevant (about 1.5 per turn in average)


Out of the question: please refer to my initial two posts to see why not. The average mana cost is just too high, and we also run fetchlands, Thoughtseize, and Force of Will. Couple that with Tombstalker, and you'll be lucky to win any games.



- I wonder if, because we already play 4 waste, the mana denial plan could fit here. this means 4 stifle -> 4 nought 2 trickbind. I know this sounds weird, but in a metagame infest of blood moon effect, 12/12 and blast( I play a heavy survival goyf sligh dreadstill like metagame), this looks like a strong plan B.

Stifle is a possibility. I don't think that maindecking it is the solution, though: decks like Team America have a much stronger mana denial plan already, and I think that if we commit to this kind of plan, we have to sacrifice this deck in favour of Team America. Tombstalker obviously plays into TA's gameplan very nicely: the deck denies its opponents resources and drops a huge flying threat very early on, making it very hard to deal with it--especially through a wall of counterspells and removal.

As far as Dreadnought goes... well, it's possible, but again, I worry that Dreadstill already does that better, and trying to work that plan into this deck is just to make the deck too schizophrenic. By all means, try it and report your results, but I have strong initial concerns. It's also worth noting that your whole argument against 3 of the cards in this deck (Genesis, Wonder, and Coliseum) has been that they need other cards to be useful (and again, I don't think that argument holds much water here); the same applies to this plan.


One question that your comments invite is just how important the cantrip engine is. It does, after all, take up quite a lot of slots that could be devoted to other cards. That's a fair question, and worth asking.

darkalucard
11-20-2008, 09:01 PM
@ Goaswerfraiejen

It's hard to take your posts seriously when your defending cards that are absolutely horrible and not playable in Legacy at all. We are all posting on here because we love the idea/concept of the deck, some of us playing around with the same core soul of the deck. But seriously how can you defend such horrible cards? I've looked up your past versions of this deck and it seems to me that you just cant let go of all T2 decks in the days of Madnes s and Psychatog. Sure these cards can be good/cool but we are talking competative here.

Here is a list of cards not playable in Legacy that you have stood by over the past year:

Wild Mongrel
Psychatog
Genesis (Besides Survival)
Wonder
Gigapede (IBA Decks don't count.)
Ghastly Demise
Cephalid Coliseum (Besides Ichorid)

I would go so far as to even say Pernicious Deed isn't playable in Legacy. At least in a deck with 19 Lands and 8x Creatures that is obviouslly confused or a well disguised aggro-control deck which shouldn't play Deed. Deed is only playable I think strictly in control decks.

I love the soul of the deck but I will not play cards that do not match up in todays competative events.

Goaswerfraiejen
11-20-2008, 09:21 PM
@ Goaswerfraiejen

It's hard to take your posts seriously when your defending cards that are absolutely horrible and not playable in Legacy at all. []

I have posted tangible reasons for the cards that I've included. I'd like to be done the courtesy of the same when other cards are suggested in their stead. Forgive me if that is unreasonable.

For the record: "X is a good card" is not an argument for its inclusion, nor is it an argument for why it would be good in this deck.

You'll notice I'm not dismissing suggestions out of hand: I'm explaining why I disagree, providing arguments for the inclusion of other cards where such things have been asked for, and stating what my concerns are when it comes to other cards. At that point, dissenters have to take up the challenge and show me that my concerns can be placated by their strategies.

How else do you suggest I tackle the issue?




But seriously how can you defend such horrible cards? I've looked up your past versions of this deck and it seems to me that you just cant let go of all T2 decks in the days of Madnes s and Psychatog. Sure these cards can be good/cool but we are talking competative here.

You need to recognize that this deck was originally a Psychatog deck, hence its initial similarities. It has since progressed beyond that, but it's natural that some ideas might stick. If these ideas are what inform the deck, then they are the core/soul of the deck...

Also, for the record, I have never played T2.




Here is a list of cards not playable in Legacy that you have stood by over the past year:

Wild Mongrel
Psychatog
Genesis (Besides Survival)
Wonder
Gigapede (IBA Decks don't count.)
Ghastly Demise
Cephalid Coliseum (Besides Ichorid)




And fully 50% of those cards have been replaced because it was determined through testing and dialogue that they didn't pull their weight throughout a changing metagame. This is how the scientific method works: it endorses a paradigm and gradually, as anomalies crop up, that paradigm is revised and then discarded for a new one. Seems to me that this is an excellent approach to deckbuilding; what else do you suggest?

Also, let me point this out: if the argument against a particular card is that it should be replaced by another, and if I show that alternative to be less desirable, why adopt the alternative? I am thinking, for example, of Cephalid Coliseum: it has been suggested over and over that it be replaced by cycling lands which, as I've argued, are rather worse. If you disagree, then show why my arguments against cycling lands and for Coliseum do not apply or are invalid. Don't just approach the issue by making categorical statements and then expecting me to comply. If I show you the courtesy of taking your suggestions seriously and presenting my concerns with the issue, I'd like to see you do the same (this is a general you, not you specifically).

What is the real issue here? Is it the absence of Tombstalker? If so, then I think that I've explained my concerns with that issue already. I will absolutely run Tombstalker if those issues can be overcome without turning this deck into a bad version of Team America. If not, then why should I?



I would go so far as to even say Pernicious Deed isn't playable in Legacy. At least in a deck with 19 Lands and 8x Creatures that is obviouslly confused or a well disguised aggro-control deck which shouldn't play Deed. Deed is only playable I think strictly in control decks.

That's possible. So make the case against Deed, present it in detail, and suggest an alternative that plays better into the deck's overall structure. I'm perfectly open to cutting Deed; my question is only "what for?"



I love the soul of the deck but I will not play cards that do not match up in todays competative events.

I'm not asking you to play suboptimal cards. I'm asking you to present arguments for your card choices so that the relative merits of all of the cards in question can be tested. EDIT: Again, a general you. You'll notice that the deck I'm currently running is much closer to your own suggestions, and I've talked at length now about what I like and dislike about it. I think I'm being more than fair.

darkalucard
11-20-2008, 10:40 PM
Most of all your list and card choices doesn't seem very solid. I don't know how much you have tested this deck competitively, or how much you have played with it. It seems to me that you have allot of testing ahead of you. If I'm wrong let me know. It's just the impression I got. Anyways I'm interested to know how your testing goes.

Hanni
11-20-2008, 11:23 PM
@ darkalucard


It's hard to take your posts seriously when your defending cards that are absolutely horrible and not playable in Legacy at all. We are all posting on here because we love the idea/concept of the deck, some of us playing around with the same core soul of the deck. But seriously how can you defend such horrible cards? I've looked up your past versions of this deck and it seems to me that you just cant let go of all T2 decks in the days of Madnes s and Psychatog. Sure these cards can be good/cool but we are talking competative here.

Here is a list of cards not playable in Legacy that you have stood by over the past year:

Wild Mongrel
Psychatog
Genesis (Besides Survival)
Wonder
Gigapede (IBA Decks don't count.)
Ghastly Demise
Cephalid Coliseum (Besides Ichorid)

I would go so far as to even say Pernicious Deed isn't playable in Legacy. At least in a deck with 19 Lands and 8x Creatures that is obviouslly confused or a well disguised aggro-control deck which shouldn't play Deed. Deed is only playable I think strictly in control decks.

I love the soul of the deck but I will not play cards that do not match up in todays competative events.

It's hard to take you seriously when you think Accumulated Knowledge is a good card in Legacy.

Just because certain cards were supported in earlier versions does not give either Goas or myself less credibility. Regardless of how much experience you think you have with this sort of deck concept, you're opinions fall short.

You greatly undervalue and clearly misunderstand some key concepts and some key cards to the deck.

Pernicious Deed is not playable in Legacy? Aside from how rediculous I think that statement is, you again fail to understand the reasoning behind how and why we are able to run the card in the deck.

The deck doesn't utilize Pernicious Deed unless it switches into control mode (unless it needs to come back from behind for whatever reason, like against Goblins or something). To switch into the control role, the deck relies on Intuition. This does not in any way mean the deck relies on Intuition whatsoever to play and win games; it simply means it needs it to effectively switch into the control role. Once Intuition resolves, Loam creates consistent land drops regardless of total land count in the deck, and therefore enables Pernicious Deed and the other mana hungry control cards in the deck (namely Genesis).

Intuition needs to be looked at like Survival in this deck; both serve a similar function, with this deck running less creatures and blue based control rather than more creatures and black based control. Intuition creates more mana (land drops), similar to Birds/Rofellos being grabbed with Survival. Intuition sets up Genesis creature recursion to cause card advantage via creatures, similar to Survival. The deck is obviously different, but considering Intuition an (card advantage) engine card in a similar fashion to the way Survival operates is important for understanding Intuition's role in this deck.

You fail to realize the elegance between Pernicious Deed and Genesis. You can Deed your creatures knowing that you're getting your guys back. The card advantage generated by both of those cards rivals card advantage cards like Standstill, especially when you throw Loam into the mix. Card advantage is crucical to being a control deck; Pernicious Deed, Genesis, and Loam are all fantastic at generating card advantage.

How can you possibly think Volrath's Stronghold is a good card, yet criticise Genesis? Do you even recognize the difference between the two? Genesis is a means of card advantage, Stronghold is simply card parody. Compare using Genesis twice (+2 CA) to Stronghold twice (+0 CA), and you'll notice that it's comparable to the difference between Ancestral Recall and Ponder (as an abstract, not as a literal comparison).

Wonder is simply in the deck because he gives everything flying. Since it's not very hard for the deck to get cards into the graveyard, especially specific cards, why not include it as a 1-of? At it's worst, yea, it's pretty bad; 3U for a 2/2 flyer is not very good. It's still not worthless though. Wonder has always been a debatable spot; I personally find flying invaluable in some games. Others don't like it, and so they don't run it.

Gigapede. You said in Togless that you think the card is crap, yet I've seen absolutely no worthwhile arguments for why he's crap. Graveyard hate and infinite chump blocking aside, Gigapede is impossible to deal with, has a good power to cost ratio, and provides inevitability independant of Loam. He's the best finisher this deck has access to; far better than Tombstalker, which seems to be what you're suggesting for that spot. I'm not even going to get into much detail about why the card is amazing until I first read a worthwhile argument about why it's bad, and I'm going to have to ask you to actually try the card before you make assumptions or theorizations.

Coliseum is simply in the deck because it is a discard outlet for Genesis/Wonder that operates independant from Gigapede (which is necessary in games 2 and 3 when graveyard hate is available). Since it provides blue mana, it's not a dead card, and it's ability to filter through cards to create card quality isn't bad either. Overall I've often questioned its effectiveness as well, and it is definitely the weakest card in the deck. I am not going to defend its inclusion. The only thing I want to say is that I find the deck to operate a little smoother with it and a little rougher without it.

darkalucard
11-20-2008, 11:34 PM
All I said was AK > Ponder in Togless and there is no room for FoF in the deck for mana curve purposes. Also I didn't say Deed wasn't playable I said it sucks outside of control decks. It's obviously playable in 4C Landstill, ITF, Control Rock decks, etc.

As for the rest of your comments... thats exactly my point.

I don't think I need to say anymore on those card choices.

BTW I didn't argue against Gigapede because it's not a card worth arguing over.

Hanni
11-20-2008, 11:55 PM
All I said was AK > Ponder in Togless and there is no room for FoF in the deck for mana curve purposes. Also I didn't say Deed wasn't playable I said it sucks outside of control decks. It's obviously playable in 4C Landstill, ITF, Control Rock decks, etc.

As for the rest of your comments... thats exactly my point.

I don't think I need to say anymore on those card choices.

BTW I didn't argue against Gigapede because it's not a card worth arguing over.

LOL. Why are you even posting in this thread, then? To say that you think that this deck is bad, that Togless is a better deck or something, or that we should conform to your faulty ideas? I'm confused entirely about the purpose of your posts, and I disagree with every single thing you've said in this thread so far. If you can't post any substance about why said cards are bad, and/or why other cards are better, you're doing little more than spamming the thread with worthless information.

Just because the deck doesn't have the same following that ITF, etc, does not make this deck any less relevant. Myself and Goas are unable to play in tournaments and the deck has little to no following, but that by no means equates to other decks like ITF or Togless being strictly better or superior, far from it. I've a great deal of development into this entire hybridized deck concept over the years and to sit there and basically insult the deck with unproven, unsubstantiated claims is, for lack of a better word, retarded.

darkalucard
11-21-2008, 12:17 AM
I like your deck better than ITF, and I do not play Togless Tog.
Edit: I also see Strengths and Weaknesses in all three decks Yours, ITF, Togless, and Mine. I'm mainly hoping to perfect a balance between them all.

I just don't want to talk about certain cards in your deck. I agree with allot of the cards purposes but think in the long run something else would be better. Also I haven't seen a consistent list of the deck either because it seems like its still in allot of testing and the people playing the deck are still trying new things.

Other than that we can talk about other things and I will try to be more productive.

BTW Do you have a current decklist Hanni? Or is it the same as the primer?

Edit: Also I have explained allot of my thoughts already in this thread and it seems we are just restating the same things over and over which is why I will drop the discussion on those things.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
11-23-2008, 02:05 AM
Gigapede kills quickly and is almost unstoppable, and almost always survives your own Deeds. What exactly is bad about Gigapede?

I think you need an point in order to be part of the conversation.

frogboy
11-23-2008, 04:36 AM
What exactly is bad about Gigapede?

It doesn't do anything until you get around to actually killing your opponent.

edit: It still might mean you have to play it, but it's probably the card I would hate the most.

mackaber
11-23-2008, 06:20 AM
Seeing that I have tested this dec considerably and am also the dude with the most actual tournament sucess with this dec I'd like to bring up some thoughts about the dec which actually feed into both sides of the above argument (not the one about Gigapede).
I personally have after some sucess with the dec abandoned it again after stumbling over a few problems I just couldn't handle. As Hanni and Goas have correctly argued this is a Hybrid-dec, not just an aggro control dec which attempts to sustain a clock with control elements but a dec that can either attempt to go the aggro control route or play a real control game with intuition functioning as the CA engine.
While this strategy has it's merits, especially versus control decs but also against permanent heavy aggro/aggrocontrol decs which deed totally rapes it comes with a built in disadvantage: that of inconsisteny.
This is due to a number of issues and I will attempt to adress them accordingly:
a) Inability to play the primary role of the aggro dec.
This is a scenario I have witnessed quite often and it usually goes something like this: I'm playing against combo and I have gotten out of the gates well enough with a beater on the board and some early disruption in form of thoughtseize I'll need either two or three more turns for the kill while I know my opponent will likely be one quicker and my sole FoW is likely not enough to protect. I cast brainstorm in the hopes to either up the clock with another dude or draw more disruption to grind him out and brainstorm gives me deed, wonder, bayou or something such and I'll lose because of it.
b) Dissynergies, Situationality and the weakness of one offs
Even if Genesis recycles critters after deeding no one can deny that there is some inherent dissynergy between mongoose and deed. Dazing stuff on turn 2 is swell but if it keeps you a turn further away from intuition it really blows. Raven's Crime/Loam rocks the socks of of any Control or StormCombo dec but what does crime do on it's own? It's frikkin funeral charm. And while I've actaully done 20 damage to a landstill opponent with a sole Wonder I really don't want to enjoy the sensation again any time in the near future. Gigapede can work wonders in the lategame but early on it just hangs in my hand and reminisces of the good ol days of Onslaught block when it actually wasn't overcosted.
c) The dependence on Intuition (and also on Loam)
Just like Hanni said Intuition is to this as Survival is to Survival. Well do you see Survival winning often without it's namesake on the board? Well maybe with lot's of thoughtseizes and Goyfs you might reply. This dec can too and actually better than survival but you won't win the lategame without resolving intuition.
d) Clunkyness
Intuition for Lft, colluseum, genesis. Dredge lftl. Play colluseum sac next turn use genesis to get back a goyf and play it in the following turn. With this move you paid a total of 7 mana and a landrop before netting actual dividends from intuition and a full 10 mana and 2 full turns before getting a dude back on the board.
Another point which adds to clunkyness is the fact that the dec runs 7 3-mana spells with 18-19 lands.

Overall I think there's just too many cards in the dec that are dependent on the combination with some other cards or which only shine in certain situations. While yeah this makes the dec an awesome toolbox and a helloflaot of fun to play it also makes it inconsistent. I think to make the dec truly competetive we have to reevaluate the usefullness of a lot of cards and streamline the build foregoing some of the nifty tricks. The problem of this approach is that by doing so we will likely worsen the decs lategame and thus take away from it's attractiveness.

Nihil Credo
11-23-2008, 07:03 AM
It doesn't do anything until you get around to actually killing your opponent.
Strictly speaking, it's a zero-mana discard outlet for Incarnations etc.

frogboy
11-23-2008, 04:02 PM
Strictly speaking, it's a zero-mana discard outlet for Incarnations etc.

Not while it's rotting away in your hand.

Goaswerfraiejen
12-19-2008, 04:52 PM
My hard drive crashed about a week and a half ago, or I'd have posted with some more testing results and variations long ago. Unfortunately, I'm now stuck on a library computer (library is closing in 15 minutes) and have lost the changes that I made to the deck.

Essentially, however, they were pretty basic. Following on the increased Wasteland/Genesis AND Stronghold/Snuff Out route, I wanted to see if Maze of Ith might not help against Team America, Dreadstill, etc. At a single slot, it was certainly quite useful. There were a few problems, however: vulnerability to Wasteland, mana issues (yuck, more of these), and a 61-card decklist. Of these, the mana issues were are are the most significant: drawing and playing Maze when you need a land drop is horrid. Since the deck already has mana issues, going up to 61 cards (and a dead land) isn't the greatest thing ever.

I've sucked it up, however, and it has potential. The deck itself plays a little more aggressively, what with all the Wastelands, and I really like that aspect. Not having to wait to get Loam and Wasteland in the basket together is REALLY helpful. The one tough spot is that it increases mana inconsistency, particularly with Stronghold.

So, as always, mana re-tooling is in order, I think. I must exit the library now, but I'll try to re-create my testing list and post it up in the next few days, as well as outline future possibilities and cuts that might help it. I think that this needs to be the main focus of our efforts for the next while, since it seems to be what's holding the deck back the most. The aggro and control packages are strong enough to stand on their own; beating yourself due to mana problems, however, is too serious to ignore.

I'd love to hear what the rest of you have been looking at these past few weeks, and what changes you might envisage given the most recent GP tournament results.

Goaswerfraiejen
01-22-2009, 11:19 AM
As promised, some updates. First, the slightly modified decklist that I've been testing recently:

Lands (20)
3 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Maze of Ith


Creatures (16)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Shoreline Ranger
1 Gigapede
1 Shriekmaw
1 Wonder
1 Genesis
1 Stinkweed Imp

Spells (25)
4 Brainstorm
3 Intuition
3 Snuff Out
1 Life from the Loam
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Thoughtseize
1 Raven's Crime
3 Pernicious Deed


Sideboard (15)

3 Engineered Plague
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Hydroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Academy Ruins



Now, that's 61 cards. Whether or not that's ideal is another issue; for the moment, I'm very happy with how the deck is running. The main difference (at least, the one not yet talked about) is the replacement of Ponder with Shoreline Ranger. Originally, I did this for shits and giggles, but I've come to like it. I'll give my reasoning, and I'd ask that if I'm dead wrong, somebody please take me to task for my idiocy:

Before, Ponder was mostly used to fetch lands early on in the game in order to to ensure a smooth transition to the mid and late-games via continuous land drops. Later on, it could be used to filter the deck for answers, or to pitch to FoW. Of course, it was also vulnerable to Counterbalance, Chalice of the Void, etc. Shoreline Ranger has the advantage that it allows us to search out land at any time, regardless of Counterbalance/Chalice, and you can search out that land with colourless mana--meaning that the proliferation of colourless/single-mana lands becomes much less damaging. That also makes mulligans that much more favourable. It still pitches to FoW, of course, and although it loses most of Ponder's search/filter ability, it also gives you a pretty scary late-game beatstick (of course, to be fair, six mana is ridiculously expensive). In testing, I've found myself with fewer mana issues overall, and I've found it much easier to make a land drop each and every turn.

So, I'd like to hear everyone else's input on that decision. It might just be a harebrained scheme on my part.

Everything else is pretty straightforward: Maze of Ith is maindecked to help with the increased proliferation of Tombstalker and Phyrexian Dreadnought (although TA runs enough hate to get around it, it's an extra stumbling block), and Snuff Out is (as mentioned a number of times already) a mainstay that fits into our plan perfectly. I also increased the concentration of Islands (and fetchlands) to complement Shoreline Ranger. Volrath's Stronghold is maindecked as well as Genesis because, although Genesis-recursion is preferable by a mile, having Stronghold on top of it all gives the deck extra resilience, and better chances of fetching/dredging what it needs. Wasteland hovers between 2 and 3 copies; three is better, but space requirements and mana concerns seem to limit it to 2 copies max.

My sideboard is radically different, but that's just a function of the kinds of decks that I've been encountering lately. Engineered Plague has come back because I've been seeing a lot of Goblins and Elves (particularly Elf Survival, which is a bloody hard matchup), and I've been tinkering with Academy Ruins and Engineered Explosives/Tormod's Crypt for fun/out of curiosity.


The deck seems solid, and it looks as though its mana issues are now largely overcome (an ambitious claim, I know). It certainly seems to play much more smoothly. An excellent choice for a large metagame. Winkwinknudgenudge. :laugh:

Goaswerfraiejen
02-19-2009, 10:54 AM
I'm told that there will be a Legacy tournament (http://www.kingcon.ca/) at a convention in Kingston, ON in April. I will be attending, and bringing this deck.

I just wanted to note two things: Shoreline Ranger is still treating me exceptionally well by guaranteeing land drops early on (as well as through Counterbalance), making otherwise crappy (colour-wise) hands keep-able, and pitching to FoW. I've even hardcast it a fair few times.

The other thing is that an eye has to be kept out for the popularity of Progenitus: it may well be necessary to find space for something like Fleshbag Marauder (I'm thinking in either Maze of Ith or Shriekmaw's place--leaning towards replacing Maze of Ith).

Hanni
02-20-2009, 06:35 PM
I know I haven't posted in this thread in FOREVER, so I felt I should add some content.

I hardly play magic anymore, but off and on and I get a chance to play a little. Anyways, I've done alot of work with Counterbalance Landstill. Aside from the fact that I think it is the best (read: most consistent) deck in the format, with answers to basically everything, I've taken a bit of that experience to heart.

Sensei's Divining Top is invaluable. With or without Counterbalance, it is single handedly the best card in Counterbalance Landstill. Now obviously this isn't that deck, but many of the roles this deck plays are similar. Top needs to be in this deck; it's far too powerful in a shell like this to go without it. Especially with Loam, since Top + dredge is very powerful card selection.

But if the deck is going to somehow fit Top, it might as well try to fit Counterbalance somewhere in its 75. If it can fit in the maindeck, it will straight out replace Thoughtseize. While Thoughtseize is a very powerful card, it does not improve matchups as significantly as Counterbalance. Now I know I've advocated against Counterbalance in here for some time, but after playtesting so much with Counterbalance Landstill, I'm pretty sure that it should be in here somewhere.

But what to cut? Between Brainstorm, Ponder, and Top, the 19th land (Cephalid Coliseum) can be dropped. Wonder is lackluster; not a bad card, but it's necessary to make space and it's the weakest card in the deck. Beyond that, it gets a little hazy. I'll go ahead and post a rough draft list of what I did:

U/G/b Intuition Thresh

Lands (18)
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Wasteland

Creatures (11)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Gigapede
1 Shriekmaw
1 Genesis

Spells (31)
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Smother
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Pernicious Deed

Sideboard (15)
4 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Counterbalance
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Tormod’s Crypt

Same manabase, minus Coliseum.

I dropped two Shriekmaws in favor of 2 Smother/2 Edict for purposes of better answering the metagame; Smother answers Dreadnought, Edict answers Tombstalker. As a 1-of, Shriekmaw is still a tutorable recurring spot removal with Intuition/Genesis.

Beyond that, I dropped the Thoughtseizes for CounterTop, as well as dropping 1 Pernicious Deed to make room. With the additional dig of Top, Deed should be almost as accessible; with Counterbalance, we'll probably want to Deed less anyway. Deed is just there as a reset button incase things get out of hand. Plus, the deck packs extras in the sideboard that can be brought in when the mass removal plan is necessary.

I wanted to fit 4 Counterbalances maindeck, but I just cannot find the room right now. Like I said, the list above is just a rough draft to try and push this deck into a direction I think it should go. Counterbalance improves many problematic matchups, from Burn to Aggro Loam to Goyf Sligh to you name it. I do miss Thoughtseize, but eh, what ya gonna do.

The deck, however, DOES need 1 Raven's Crime maindeck. Now, I'm not sure exactly what to drop. Probably 1 Ponder since there's nothing else that I'd really wanna get rid of, but I think that decision would require testing rather than random guessing.

BreathWeapon
03-02-2009, 01:32 PM
I really don't understand the direction you guys are taking this deck in, Intuition essentially serves as Balance/Top, Crucible/Waste, Fact or Fiction and a recursion engine all wrapped into one card, why bother running Intuition if you're just going to load the deck down with the engines Intuition is trying to replace?

As an aside, I think Nimble Mongoose is trash and Werebear is superior, you beat control by resolving Intuition and the T:G is pretty much invaluble for the deck's curve. Plus the 5 turn clock is really a big difference over the Goose's 7, and Werebear is big enough to at least trade with any non Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker or Phyrexian Dreadnought creature in the format.

I'm also 100% on board with Snuff Out > Shriekmaw, paying mana for removal not named Pernicious Deed sucks in this deck.

Goaswerfraiejen
04-03-2009, 03:43 PM
I'll be taking the deck to a local tournament/convention this Sunday. Incidentally, I've been testing the deck with Sensei's Divining Top replacing Thoughtseize, and I'm quite impressed with the consistency now. I also tried testing Knight of the Reliquary--it worked decently well, but seemed like a win-more solution, and the land-fetching was too techy for this deck. I also tried out Sower of Temptation and even Gilded Drake, but it doesn't seem to fit the deck so well: if the Sower's removed, real problems ensued for the deck.

So, in preparation for this tournament, I've upped the removal package by adding a Fleshbag Marauder and a Damnation (No Mazes of Ith are to be had locally, unfortunately), which should give a small measure of resilience against the random stuf that's guaranteed to show up, along with Tombstalker and company. I also snuck Eternal Witness back in. I've kept the Shoreline Rangers to ensure mana drops through potential Counterbalances and the like. Perhaps that's just me being stupid, but there you have it.

I do have a few questions about your general opinions:

1.) I don't own any Wastelands, so I'm going to try to acquire one tomorrow. If I can't, what should replace it? Ghost Quarter? Or just another mana-producer? I do think that having some sort of land-removal is a good plan...

2.) All I know for sure about the metagame is that there will be at least one Ichorid deck, and that David Caplan won't be playing (yay, better odds for moi!). What do you think an ideal sideboard configuration would be? I don't own any Counterbalances, but it might be possible to acquire some tomorrow. If not, then what? I fully realize that I've made some concessions for this tournament that make combo a very bad matchup, so the question is how to board against it whilst keeping space open for potential problem decks. I was thinking something roughly along these lines:

3 Engineered Plague
3 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Hydroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
3 open slots--Duress? Pithing Needle? Cabal Therapy? More Raven's Crime? (:tongue:) Counterbalance? Mana Leak/Counterspell?

So yeah, there you have it. When I finish up on Sunday, I'll type up some form of report (with a list) and let whoever hasn't given up on this thread know what happened.

Solpugid
04-03-2009, 11:29 PM
When I was playing this deck (or decks similar to it), I had trouble with fast aggro in addition to combo. Deed was just too slow a lot of the time, and with thoughtseize gone you lose a way to affect them early-game. Assuming goblins is more common than zoo in your area, I would consider devoting a few sideboard slots to stifle.

Ghost quarter seems pretty weak here, since you really don't want to be sacrificing that kind of tempo. What lands would be so problematic that you would include g.q. over a color-producing land?

Goaswerfraiejen
04-06-2009, 01:25 PM
Well, I ended up taking sixth--out of nine. We all expected a much larger turnout, given the numbers that showed up to the first day of the convention. Ah well, so it goes. The good news is that the deck piloted very smoothly (aside from a complete clusterfuck in round one), and I didn't ever feel like I was at a real disadvantage--again, aside from the first round. I was and am extremely happy with Top, and Shoreline Ranger was useful for fixing up my makeshift manabase. As you’ll see in a moment, I sort of lack the appropriate fetchlands, so I had to make do with what I had.

U/G/B Intuition Thresh

Lands (18)
3 Tropical Island
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Underground Sea
2 Forest
1 Bayou
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Wasteland
1 Volrath’s Stronghold

Creatures (18)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Shoreline Ranger
1 Gigapede
1 Shriekmaw
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Genesis
1 Wonder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Stinkweed Imp

Spells (25)
4 Force of Will
3 Brainstorm
3 Intuition
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
3 Daze
3 Snuff Out
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Damnation
1 Life from the Loam
1 Raven’s Crime

Sideboard (15)
3 Duress
3 Engineered Plague
3 Krosan Grip
2 Hydroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus

As I mentioned earlier, I was banking on a minimal combo presence and a strong creature-based turnout--I was basically right, as you’ll see below. I was definitely expecting some Merfolk and Goblins, and wanted to have enough removal maindeck to make my Plagues and Blasts redundant.


R1 – Mono-Red Goblins

G1: I have a strong opening hand, but alas, no answers for a first-turn Lackey (since I’m not starting). I try to play catch-up with Tarmogoyf and Deed, but Lackey brings in another Lackey, and I can’t deal with all that.
G2: I mull to five (no lands), which gives me Engineered Plague, Nimble Mongoose, Nimble Mongoose, Shoreline Ranger, and Volrath’s Stronghold. Horrible hand, but having mulled to five, I’m getting desperate. Besides, I figure that as long as I draw at least one land, I can make up for my slow start with Plague and Mongeese. No such luck: I play three turns, draw nothing, and have my face caved in by an 18-damage alpha strike.

R2 – Mono-Blue Dreadfolk
G1: I pound his face in with Tarmogoyf, Mongoose, and Gigapede.
G2: We both hit a standstill (not the card) within one swing of winning. I keep Topping into removal for whatever new creatures he gets to stick, and I have a Genesis sitting on the board keeping my own Tarmogoyf (Threads of Disloyalty—boooo) at bay, as well as a Mutavault and Reejerey. I have a Fleshbag Marauder and Mongoose in my graveyard (along with six or so mana), hence his hesitation to attack into Genesis. I try to cast a Deed, he counters it—and then on his turn casts Back to Basics. ARGH! With only two basics on the board, I die a quick death despite my previously superior overall board position.
G3: I don’t remember this game very well, but it’s another close one that I lose by a narrow margine.

R3: Bye.

R4 – Extended Port Golgari Dredge
G1: Tarmogoyf smashes his face before he can do much except cast some Llanowar Elves. To be fair, he tried casting Shambling Shell three times in a row, and I countered it every time. :smile:
G2: I open a hand with just one Tropical Island, a Mongoose, a Relic of Progenitus, and a Tormod’s Crypt. I figure that since I won G1, I can afford to keep this hand. Consequently, I am promptly clobbered to 7 or so life before I finally get another land in play. Strangely, he’s clobbering me with a couple of Llanowar Elves (one pumped by the now-removed Shell), a Putrid Imp, and a Stinkweed Imp. I cast Tarmogoyf with my new land, and it kills an elf and slowly starts filling the graveyard and growing (I’ve been using Relic up until now). At this point we arrive at a standstill that I’m slowly turning around with Crypt and Relic (I even cast Eternal Witness to bring back Tormod’s Crypt), and I manage to stabilize at 1 life. I wipe out his board, and slowly beat him with a Tarmogoyf.


Ultimately, this is how the decks placed (and, conveniently, this is a metagame breakdown):

ANT (it somehow survived three Stifles, two FoWs, and a Daze in a single game against Merfolk!)
Mono-R Goblins
Burn
Merfolk
Merfolk
UGB Intuition-Threshold
Lands w/ Elspeth and Moat
Ext.-port Golgari
Mono-black aggro


Although it was disappointing that so few people showed up (and I’m a little sore about losing to manascrew against Goblins, even though I might well have lost anyway), the possibility of a regular Legacy tournament was discussed, and may well see the light of day. That would be cool, even though I’ll be moving away fairly soon. I’m quite happy with the deck’s performance, however, and would gladly bring it to another (preferably larger) tournament, where it can hopefully prey on other Threshold variants. Considering that this was the Kingston area's first Legacy tournament, even yesterday's paltry metagame is a good start.

BreathWeapon
04-07-2009, 02:14 PM
Cutting Ponder for Shoreline Ranger, cutting Thought Seize for Sensei's Divining Top and using "tool box" removal is not the way to play this deck. I've been experimenting with and refining this deck for awhile now, and in my experience, the more stream lined it is the more successful it is.

Here's the version I'm playing in Moscow ATM,

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thought Seize
1 Raven's Crime

4 Intuition
1 Genesis
1 Life from the Loam
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Snuff Out
3 Pernicious Deed

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Werebear

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Cabal Pit
1 Wasteland

SB
1 Gigapede
1 Stinkweed Imp
4 Tormod's Crypt
1 Zuran Orb
1 Academy Ruins
4 Blue Elemental Blast

More or less, I wouldn't change a card in the MD or in the SB (altho' I have additional SB space). You need Thought Seize, otherwise you have no way of forcing Intuition or Pernicious Deed to resolve, and resolving those cards are what just wins games. You use Force of Will, Daze, Snuff Out, Tarmogoyf and Thought Seize to win the tempo war in the first two turns, and if you don't just out race your opponent, you have the best late game spells available. Besides Genesis and Raven's Crime, you don't need any other MD singletons. You either tutor for Life from the Loam, Cephalid Coliseum and Genesis or Life from the Loam, Wasteland and Raven's Crime most of the time. You have a few iterations, like replacing Cephalid Coliseum with Raven's Crime or replacing Wasteland with Cabal Pit, but usually you just go for whatever can win the attrition war vs other decks.

I think it's really important not to get cute with Intuition, because the singletons in this deck suffer from the same effect singletons have in Survival of the Fittest, they just weigh you down. You should only use what you absolute need in the MD and then you can sprinkle in techy singletons game 3.

Goaswerfraiejen
04-21-2009, 11:12 AM
Cutting Ponder for Shoreline Ranger, cutting Thought Seize for Sensei's Divining Top and using "tool box" removal is not the way to play this deck. I've been experimenting with and refining this deck for awhile now, and in my experience, the more stream lined it is the more successful it is.

I think that I disagree about Sensei's Divining Top: it adds to the streamlining, doesn't detract from it. Both changes were largely made out of regard for my worse-than-usual IRL manabase, but I do think that Top adds quite a bit of consistency to the deck. As for "tool box" removal: there is none, really. I just tossed in Damnation for metagame considerations, and readily acknowledge that the slot could be put to better use with another card. Shriekmaw and Marauder are there for redundancy rather than for toolbox value: and again, to be fair, Marauder was just a metagame choice. I expected some silly decks with huge creatures like Progenitus; they just didn't show up.

I do like your list, however. It definitely looks much more streamlined. Some thoughts:

-If you're primarily using Thoughtseize to force through Intuition or Deed, have you tried Duress? How significant, over the course of the game, is life loss from Thoughtseize? What about replacing a Thoughtseize with either another Crime, a Duress, Cabal Therapy, etc.? I've always found Thoughtseize rather dead later on in the game, when you most need your life and your opponent has fewer resources that you want to Seize away--especially with the fact that you use four Snuff Out and 8 (!) fetches.

-Any chance of replacing 3 Ponder with Sensei's Divining Top and maindecking Gigapede for the last Ponder?

-Is Cabal Pit really that much better than Shriekmaw? You're going to have to tutor for it anyway, and Shriekmaw has a much wider range of application (as both removal and beatstick; also, its recursion dodges Counterbalance and doesn't eat a land drop).

-I'm skeptical of Zuran Orb in the SB with just 18 lands. How has it worked out for you? I realize that the deck wants some sort of life gain, but wouldn't something like Kitchen Finks/Golgari Brownscale/Darkheart Sliver/etc. be more reliable? You still have to tutor for the Orb, and you need Ruins to guarantee dropping it--next turn.

-Academy Ruins has such a narrow application in the sideboard... it doesn't look like an optimal use of the slot.






Anyway, your thoughts are much appreciated. I'll tinker around with the list that you posted, and see what I think after some testing. I expect I'll be making some of the changes I mentioned above, however.

Keep up the input! At the very least, it'll steer me clear of more ideas like Shoreline Ranger. :wink:

BreathWeapon
04-22-2009, 12:09 AM
@Thought Seize

Discard resolves Intuition and Pernicious Deed where counters don't, even tho' discard can be dead in the late game, removing the opponent's Tarmogoyf or Counterbalance with out "holding back" resources is pivotal. IMO, 2 Life is worth discarding Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant and Goblins, you just don't want DCA in your difficult match ups.

You can't compare Cabal Pit to Shriekmaw, Cabal Pit T:B and removes Dark Confidant, it's awesome when your CA engine removes their CA engine and wins Tarmogoyf wars.

I hate Gigapede MD, IMO, Gigapede and Stinkweed Imp are more of an "anti-Crypt" measure in the aggro-control match.

Goaswerfraiejen
04-22-2009, 01:35 AM
@Thought Seize

Discard resolves Intuition and Pernicious Deed where counters don't, even tho' discard can be dead in the late game, removing the opponent's Tarmogoyf or Counterbalance with out "holding back" resources is pivotal. IMO, 2 Life is worth discarding Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant and Goblins, you just don't want DCA in your difficult match ups.



Right, but have you tried downsizing from the full complement of 4 Seizes, though? With 8 fetches, FoW, and Snuff Out, that life is really starting to add up, which leaves me with the concern that these cards all become significantly less useful as the game goes on--and that's a fairly large chunk of the deck. I'm just wondering about your experiences with that configuration and alternative configurations, is all.



You can't compare Cabal Pit to Shriekmaw, Cabal Pit T:B and removes Dark Confidant, it's awesome when your CA engine removes their CA engine and wins Tarmogoyf wars.

I'm comparing it because it's a tutor-able singleton that occupies a similar slot, with the aim of creating a back-breaking removal situation. The differences are significant, however, which is why I'm questioning the advantages. Here's a chart of what I'm seeing (which is by no means comprehensive: feel free to add to it):


Shriekmaw

Pros:

-Can act as an evasive beatstick.
-Evades Counterbalance.
-Destroys creatures entirely.
-Easy to set up and recur: usually 3GB over one turn.


Cons:

-Vulnerable to stifle.
-Can't hit manlands, artifacts (Dreadnought), black creatures (Bob, Tombstalker).



Cabal Pit

Pros:

-Affects combat phase: can hit manlands, weaken a Tarmogoyf.
-Easier to set up and recur: four mana (taps itself) and one land drop a turn.


Cons:

-Dependent upon Threshold.
-Limited range of application (2-toughness creatures, blockers).
-Recursion eats a land drop.
-Vulnerable to Counterbalance (dependent on Loam).



Based on that, Pit's limitations seem like a significant drawback, while Shriekmaw's relative versatility looks like more of a boon. Taking the deck into context, the only place where Pit makes a huge difference is against Bob, and frankly, that weakness a cost that I'm willing to pay in exchange for Counterbalance-proof (almost!) guaranteed spot removal. To be fair, however, I do see the advantage in having it for Goyf standstills, although the threshold and land drop requirements make me leery of it as a plausible solution: I think I'd rather be making my drops and focusing on recurring Shriekmaw/cycling through the deck to break the standoff instead--especially if those standoffs aren't favourable to begin with.


Have I gone far awry?



I've been testing a list much closer to your own tonight (with the changes I mentioned above, and the addition of a few Nimble Mongoose), and I must say that I'm quite pleased, although I definitely want more testing experience before I say anything more substantial.

BreathWeapon
04-22-2009, 02:10 AM
The reason Cabal Pit can't be compared to Shriekmaw is that they don't use the same slot, Cabal Pit is a land that taps for mana, therefore it needs to be compared to other lands that tap for mana and not a business spell. I'd sooner remove Snuff Out for Shriekmaw than I would remove Cabal Pit for Snuff Out, because those cards essentially serve the same role.

Between Snuff Out, Thought Seize, Force of Will and Fetchalnds you do lose a lot of life, but I'm use to losing a lot of life from Team America. If you don't face Dreadnoughts or Goblins, then I think cutting Snuff Out for Shriekmaw is more than reasonable.

I strongly recommend cutting Nimble Mongoose and keeping Werebear, because Nimble Mongoose just isn't big enough or fast enough and Shroud isn't very useful when you can just recur your threats. 4/4 T:G is just absolutely fucking awesome vs Merfolk and random aggro.

I never cut Thought Seize, Daze or Ponder, I'd rather be more consistent than more versatile. I only have Genesis as a hard to cast Intuition target, and I want to keep it that way.

I'm also aggressively Needling Tops, which is the reason I'm not running any myself.

Goaswerfraiejen
04-22-2009, 10:03 AM
The reason Cabal Pit can't be compared to Shriekmaw is that they don't use the same slot, Cabal Pit is a land that taps for mana, therefore it needs to be compared to other lands that tap for mana and not a business spell. I'd sooner remove Snuff Out for Shriekmaw than I would remove Cabal Pit for Snuff Out, because those cards essentially serve the same role.

Between Snuff Out, Thought Seize, Force of Will and Fetchalnds you do lose a lot of life, but I'm use to losing a lot of life from Team America. If you don't face Dreadnoughts or Goblins, then I think cutting Snuff Out for Shriekmaw is more than reasonable.

I strongly recommend cutting Nimble Mongoose and keeping Werebear, because Nimble Mongoose just isn't big enough or fast enough and Shroud isn't very useful when you can just recur your threats. 4/4 T:G is just absolutely fucking awesome vs Merfolk and random aggro.

I never cut Thought Seize, Daze or Ponder, I'd rather be more consistent than more versatile. I only have Genesis as a hard to cast Intuition target, and I want to keep it that way.

I'm also aggressively Needling Tops, which is the reason I'm not running any myself.



Fair enough. For the record, what I'm tinkering with still had Werebear, it just has some Mongooses as well. I really like the Werebear, it's just that I also want a modicum of protection against Shackles, Sower, and so on, as well as an easy recursion target. But anyway. Thanks for the input.

BreathWeapon
04-22-2009, 10:52 AM
IMO, Intuition->Gigapede is just as good as Nimble Mongoose vs the Control Magic esq cards, but really you're relying on Pernicious Deed to take care of that crap.

Yeah, the Bear is awesome, I think Merfolk has more or less killed Nimble Mongoose, because it's just not big enough any more.

Goaswerfraiejen
04-26-2009, 12:33 PM
IMO, Intuition->Gigapede is just as good as Nimble Mongoose vs the Control Magic esq cards, but really you're relying on Pernicious Deed to take care of that crap.

Yeah, the Bear is awesome, I think Merfolk has more or less killed Nimble Mongoose, because it's just not big enough any more.


Gigapede is definitely amazing versus Control Magic and company, but Mongoose has the added bonus of easy recursion, which allows me to ramp up the aggression more significantly (plus, it's a quick answer to Lackey). You're right that getting it to 3/3 is a tad slow against Merfolk, but against the rest of the field, I'm still quite happy with them. Just running Werebear and Goyf simply isn't enough aggression for my tastes, and it's too unvaried a creature-curve for Counterbalance, Spell Snare, and company. Although to be fair, it's not like my own curve is that much more varied. :tongue: I definitely think that some sort of creature should be in that slot; perhaps Coatl will warrant some testing once it comes out. Depending on Coatl's popularity in the format, Wonder might also want to come back into the main deck.

In other news, I'm very happy with the re-introduction of Werebear: it fills the same sort of role that I wanted Shoreline Ranger to, while upping the early aggression. As a 3-3 split with Mongoose, it's working just fine for me, and I'm really appreciating the increased consistency.

I've also been trying a 2-1 split between Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy, but I haven't had recourse to it often enough to make a judgement either way. The life loss is certainly minimal, which is good, but there are obvious drawbacks. Cabal Therapy can be tutored up and used trickily with Intuition, but that's just a cute trick that I've yet to want to perform, much less need.

For reference, this is what I'm (quite happily) working with at the moment:

Lands (18)
3 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
2 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Wasteland
1 Volrath’s Stronghold

Creatures (13)
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Werebear
3 Nimble Mongoose
1 Gigapede
1 Shriekmaw
1 Genesis

Spells (25)
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Intuition
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
3 Snuff Out
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Thoughtseize
1 Raven’s Crime
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Life from the Loam

Sideboard (15)
3 Engineered Plague
3 Krosan Grip
2 Hydroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Wonder
1 Stinkweed Imp
1 Eternal Witness

Hanni
05-13-2009, 10:54 PM
I've been working 60+ hours a week, no longer have the internet, and don't play magic much anymore. Given that, the decklist I'm about to post is untested and just food for thought.

Before I even post the list, I'd like to say that I think that BreathWeapon's tempo list is awesome. I think the deck can go both ways; either tempo based, or slower and more control based.

The list I'm about to post is the slower control based version:

U/G/b Intuition Thresh

Lands (18)
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Wasteland

Creatures (10)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Gigapede
1 Genesis

Spells (32)
4 Brainstorm
4 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Raven’s Crime
2 Smother
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Pernicious Deed

Sideboard (15)
4 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Krosan Grip
1 Shriekmaw
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Tormod’s Crypt

Jak
05-13-2009, 10:58 PM
The deck looks very mana hungry. How do you effectively use Daze and not get just as hurt by it? I would change it to Spell Snares.

BreathWeapon
05-14-2009, 12:44 AM
Spellsnare and Thought Seize are redundant, Daze isn't a problem because you can either make up for it thru' Werebear or you can actually cast it since the deck itself is light on 2 drops.

Daze is really, really awesome, every time I Intuition for Life from the Loam, Raven's Crime and Wasteland they become virtual hard counters.

@Hanni

I'd drop Nimble Mongoose, the power curve has risen so much that Goose just doesn't actually do anything, where Werebear's mana productions is pretty relevant. Gigapede is also clunky MD, usually I just board him to give me redundancy vs Tormod's Crypt.

Glad you like it tho', it's pretty fun to play.

Goaswerfraiejen
05-23-2009, 12:34 PM
Out of curiosity, I've been kicking around a list with Noble Hierarch, Lorescale Coatl, and Maelstrom Pulse. Playing Hierarch makes a noticeable difference to mana production, which has been really nice. Most significantly, it hastens mana production starting on turn two, rather than three (Werebear), and so doesn't necessitate a choice between casting Tarmogoyf or casting Werebear. On the downside, it's a pretty ineffective threat, and exalted hasn't been a huge boon. Without Mongoose, recurring significant threats is much more difficult, simply because there's that much less to recur in the first place.

Coatl has also been fun to play, but it's also less impressive in the late game, and it's not that easy to recur. On the upside, the stronger manabase (thanks to Hierarch) means that it can be done reliably. I'm not sure if it ends up replacing the aggression that's lost without Mongoose and Werebear; to an extent, certainly, but the threat is also more manageable now (since it's just one creature, and easily dealt with to boot). On the other hand, it increases the blue density for FoW, which is helpful--especially since pressure is taken off of FoW by Maelstrom Pulse.

I've quite liked the addition of Maelstrom Pulse to complement Snuff Out and Deed, since it hits Tombstalker, Planeswalkers, and the like. It's taken some pressure off my counterspells and Krosan Grip, which is excellent. The downside has been that my removal suite, although now formidable, also feels unbalanced. It feels unbalanced in relation to itself (the other removal elements), but also in relation to my creature package and to the discard elements, which are supposed to be complementary.

In sum, I'm not sold on the changes I've made, even though they're fun. I really miss dropping a one-mana threat that's untargetable, and I've had to change the way that I run my attack phases a tad. Also, the inclusion of Maelstrom pulse has made Thoughtseize more redundant (except against combo), and I'm not sure how sold I am on that. Although the list runs smoothly, I feel like it needs much more tweaking to achieve an appropriate balance. That said, I quite like this direction, since it feels more versatile: balance feels like an important issue, however. I want another Gigapede-esque threat to be printed (at a lower CC)! :smile:

Goaswerfraiejen
05-26-2009, 11:17 AM
Right, so here's what I've been working with. I'm much happier with the balance now, although there are still some questions. Here's what I'Ve gone with:

Lands (18)
3 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
2 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Wasteland
1 Volrath’s Stronghold

Creatures (16)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Lorescale Coatl
1 Gigapede
1 Shriekmaw
1 Genesis
1 Eternal Witness
1 Wonder

Spells (27)
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Intuition
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
3 Snuff Out
3 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Raven’s Crime
1 Life from the Loam

Sideboard (15)
3 Thoughtseize
3 Engineered Plague
2 Hydroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
3x open slot (Mana Leak? Duress? Still K-Grip?)


I'm really liking Eternal Witness' re-inclusion in the main deck: with the Hierarchs, casting it through Stronghold or Genesis is just much easier, and it makes the removal truly backbreaking. It also acts as Deed #3. Whether or not Wonder should go back into the main deck is another question, however. I could happily relegate it back to the sideboard in exchange for Thoughtseize, I think.

Similarly, Deed is still very strong here, although the need for it has diminished. I like having some form of mass removal in this slot, and I think that Deed's versatility still warrants its inclusion.

What I've found from my testing is an increased facility against Tombstalker, Dreadnought, and Dragon Stompy. If Hierarch is my first drop, then the next few turns are generally controlled by me (thanks to Snuff Out and company). He's sped the deck up by at least a turn, and that's been a significant improvement: turn 3-4 Gigapedes are lethal, and casting Intuition on turn 2 can usually sneak it past opposing counterspells.

Openings without Hierarch are much weaker, but just as viable as they were previously. I also like the fact that there's quite a continuity of must-counter threats packed into the deck, and with two recursion outlets, this continuity easily achieves a critical mass. One small difficulty has been that Hierarch itself is a useless beater, and generally not worth recurring unless you want the mana; on the plus side, the mana fixing that it provides makes recurring larger threats that much more feasible.

The increased blue count has been very favourable as well. I haven't felt the loss of Thoughtseize too much against anything except combo, simply because there's less for it to do now. The inclusion of Maelstrom Pulse makes having Thoughtseize as a first-turn play much less necessary, since I can still deal with Tombstalker and company. The real use is still against combo, and I'm still prepared to throw game 1/rely just on free counterspells until I can sideboard.

Any thoughts on this direction? I quite like the increased tempo and impact of the deck. It feels very natural.

Goaswerfraiejen
06-10-2009, 11:36 AM
Just wanted to post an update with regard to the M2010 rules changes, which (I think) leave this deck in an excellent position. As far as I can tell nothing really needs to be replaced (unlike in The Rock, D & T, or Goblins), and the changes do no real harm to this deck. They do, however, harm a number of matchups that were difficult (such as ANT, D & T, and Goblins). While they don't all of a sudden make these matchups a piece of cake, their effect is non-negligible, and I think that they make this an ideal time to be playing Intuition-Thresh. Just remember that Brainstorm/Intuition/Snuff Out have to be cast during the blockers phase (which is usually how it played out anyway, for the purposes of growing Goyf and Coatl through damage).

Also, I've been testing the last list I posted just about every day, and the more I play it, the happier I am with it. Hierarch speeds the deck up significantly, and greatly increases its consistency and resilience to manabase hate. Likewise, Pulse increases its maindeck versatility, which is the deck's calling card. With Coatl now on board, the deck has lost most of its graveyard dependence (largely thanks to the replacement of Mongoose and Werebear), thereby neutering most post-board answers. It's proving to be quite resilient overall.

Solpugid
06-12-2009, 07:07 PM
Are you still happy with those two maindeck deeds? You have 3 open slots in your board, which in my mind would be best used as 3 deeds to help against tribal decks, affinity, etc. Going -2 deed, +1 intution and +1 pulse/shriekmaw seems like a good move because deed has so much anti-synergy.

Deed and pulse are both good against countertop, but both can only (usually) hit balance. Deed and pulse are equally good against EtW tokens. Deed and pulse both kill both players' goyfs in the event of a stalemate.

Goaswerfraiejen
06-17-2009, 05:24 PM
Are you still happy with those two maindeck deeds? You have 3 open slots in your board, which in my mind would be best used as 3 deeds to help against tribal decks, affinity, etc. Going -2 deed, +1 intution and +1 pulse/shriekmaw seems like a good move because deed has so much anti-synergy.

Deed and pulse are both good against countertop, but both can only (usually) hit balance. Deed and pulse are equally good against EtW tokens. Deed and pulse both kill both players' goyfs in the event of a stalemate.

I'm still very happy with Deed, yes. The ability to hit multiple converted mana costs is incredibly good, as is having an instant-speed Pulse. I haven't really found it particularly anti-synergistic, despite the Hierarchs, simply because it's been hitting the table much later in the game, and after much more consistent mana development and graveyard/board sculpting. Having a reset button is a great asset, and I'm having a hard time letting it go.

With that said, I've been wondering if Putrefy might not also be a viable option here, either for the Deed slot, the Pulse slot, or any combination of the two. As a budget option, it's certainly great. But it's also good because it hits the two targets you most want it to hit: creatures (especially black or manlands) and artifacts, and it's instant-speed. I haven't tested it yet, but I've been thinking about it every time I draw/use Pulse and Deed. It could work.

If anything, I think that keeping those slots as versatile removal slots is important. Adding a fourth Intuition, by contrast, strikes me as much less important: I've been relying on Intuition much less, simply because it's much easier to draw and cast answers with Top and Brainstorm now. Intuition is still very important, and an engine like no other, but I don't think miss that fourth copy one bit. Also, if you want to add something like Shriekmaw, try Fleshbag Marauder instead: in conjunction with Shriekmaw, it gives you fantastic removal options.

Arsenal
06-18-2009, 12:03 AM
Can Acidic Slime find a home in here, or is the cmc just too much to overcome?

Goaswerfraiejen
06-18-2009, 02:42 PM
Can Acidic Slime find a home in here, or is the cmc just too much to overcome?

I think that the cmc is fine, but the fact that it can't remove creatures as well (save through deathtouch) is a huge blow to its versatility. I'm not sure how many copies would have to be run to make it truly effective: my guess is more than one. At one copy, Gigapede is just better all around (significant threat, huge blocker, easily recurred, shroud, discard outlet). In multiples, I feel like it would just eat up slots that would be better off being used by something else.

That obviously doesn't mean that I'm right (especially without any testing), but that's my initial reaction. 11th edition may yet yield something worth including, however.

BreathWeapon
06-18-2009, 07:15 PM
Putrefy can't replace Maelstrom Pulse, if your 3cc removal spell can't destroy Enchantments, then you've missed the entire point of using 3cc removal in the first place.

I don't like Coatl, the deck is too top heavy and Coatl does too little the turn he comes into play, I'd rather go back to Tombstalker at that rate.

Maelstrom Pulse is touch and go, you lose your main weapon vs Goblins, Affinity and Merfolk for a marginal gain in the aggro-control mirror ... it's not worth it.

Goaswerfraiejen
06-18-2009, 09:53 PM
Putrefy can't replace Maelstrom Pulse, if your 3cc removal spell can't destroy Enchantments, then you've missed the entire point of using 3cc removal in the first place.

Fair enough.




I don't like Coatl, the deck is too top heavy and Coatl does too little the turn he comes into play, I'd rather go back to Tombstalker at that rate.

That's also a perfectly valid point, but I do like having a graveyard-independent threat that's fairly easy to cast. Tombstalker would be the immediate other option, but mana and graveyard issues have me unconvinced. At any rate, some sort of cheap and graveyard independent beater seems like the best use of that slot. Coatl has been very good to me so far, with few problems (but some did crop up, obviously). Any ideas on other options?



Maelstrom Pulse is touch and go, you lose your main weapon vs Goblins, Affinity and Merfolk for a marginal gain in the aggro-control mirror ... it's not worth it.

I'm not sure I understand your point here, however: what card's been lost?

BreathWeapon
06-19-2009, 02:35 AM
Fair enough.




That's also a perfectly valid point, but I do like having a graveyard-independent threat that's fairly easy to cast. Tombstalker would be the immediate other option, but mana and graveyard issues have me unconvinced. At any rate, some sort of cheap and graveyard independent beater seems like the best use of that slot. Coatl has been very good to me so far, with few problems (but some did crop up, obviously). Any ideas on other options?



I'm not sure I understand your point here, however: what card's been lost?

I meant Maelstrom Pulse isn't a replacement for Pernicious Deed, because Maelstrom Pulse is marginal vs Goblins, Affinity and Merfolk where Pernicious Deed has a major impact on their board state.

No idea, Tombstalker, Coatl and Werebear all have their faults, but as long as Intuition Thresh relies on the graveyard for it's engine, I don't think it matters if the secondary threat relies on the graveyard as well. I really like Werebear, it fits the curve better than any other threat and it bridges our land light manabase and our 3cc spells.

Edit: You seriously need to cut those singletons, the deck doesn't need 'em and you're drowning yourself in situational draws. Even with Noble Hierarch, I think your deck packs it in to a single Wasteland.

Goaswerfraiejen
06-22-2009, 09:23 PM
I meant Maelstrom Pulse isn't a replacement for Pernicious Deed, because Maelstrom Pulse is marginal vs Goblins, Affinity and Merfolk where Pernicious Deed has a major impact on their board state.

Thanks for the clarification. Deed is still there, it's only lost one copy. I'm perfectly open to bringing it back up to three, however. Fine-tuning the removal suite is a difficult process.




No idea, Tombstalker, Coatl and Werebear all have their faults, but as long as Intuition Thresh relies on the graveyard for it's engine, I don't think it matters if the secondary threat relies on the graveyard as well. I really like Werebear, it fits the curve better than any other threat and it bridges our land light manabase and our 3cc spells.

Would you advocate Werebear in addition to Hierarch, or in its slot? The reason that I opted for Hierarch when the choice was between the two was because of its speed, which not only helps to cast threats earlier, but more importantly gives you a solid mana return from a single land/fetch (this, in turn, helps to build resilience to hate).



Edit: You seriously need to cut those singletons, the deck doesn't need 'em and you're drowning yourself in situational draws.

I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about. There are fewer singletons than there once were. I can only really see two singletons that might fit your bill: Wonder and Raven's Crime, and it seems to me that the reasons to run them are sound, and the weight that they take up is small--especially compared to their regular payoffs. The deck certainly works without Wonder; but it also seems to work much better with it. Hell, at worst, it can just be pitched to FoW. Raven's Crime is much more situational than Wonder, in my opinion. On the other hand, it cleans up Intuition piles, helps to discard Incarnations if necessary, and does a real number on control. In other words, it greatly helps with internal cohesion. I don't doubt that I could live (and sleep easy) with in the sideboard as a complement for Duress/Thoughtseize et. al., but the question remains: what is a better use for that slot? As far as single cards go, I can't really think of any. Which leaves us with the option of multiple cuts elsewhere to free up 3-4 slots, but again, the question is: where?

Or do you also advocate cutting Wasteland, Loam, Stronghold, Genesis, Eternal Witness, Shriekmaw, and Gigapede? If that's the case, well... I think that would be a significant error. Actually, it would probably give a real reason to run Team America/UGB Counter-Top instead of this in the first place.



Even with Noble Hierarch, I think your deck packs it in to a single Wasteland.

On this point, you're completely wrong. I've got hundreds of games' worth of playtesting to back that up, too--it's not just a thought. A recurring wastelock, on the other hand, can sometimes prove problematic--but that's the case with most decks that ventures beyond one or two colours. You've got enough basics to stay afloat, and the manabase is much more stable than, say, ITF's (since ITF is probably this deck's most similar contender). If ITF can manage, so can this. If most three-coloured decks can manage without the added bonuses of Loam and Hierarch, then so can this deck. That's not to say that there isn't room to play with the manabase--for example, black becomes much more important with Pulse, and Green becomes slightly less important with Hierarch. That might mean some minor re-jigging to ensure that black is always available. As long as you don't keep fetching duals in the face of multiple wastelands, the manabase works just fine.

BreathWeapon
06-23-2009, 04:41 AM
By singletons, I mean Eternal Witness, Wonder, maybe Shriekmaw and maybe Gigapede. You don't need Eternal Witness, once Intuition resolves it'll bury the opponent with Wasteland and Raven's Crime or Genesis recursion. Wonder is situational, Shriekmaw should be in a removal slot and Gigapede should only be used if you're not running a secondary threat.

I can see Noble Hierarch speeding the deck up a turn, but does it really need the speed? Personally I think it needs threat density, otherwise you're just playing ITF with out Balance/Top.

I know it's going to sound "old school," but I almost want to run River Boa, because it can go toe to toe with Tarmogoyf and slip in for damage when the board stalemates.

Goaswerfraiejen
06-28-2009, 10:45 PM
Protean Hydra looks like it might have some potential in Coatl's slots:

Protean Hydra
XG
Creature-Hydra
Protean Hydra enters the battlefield with X
+1/+1 counters on it. If damage would be
dealt to Protean Hydra, prevent that damage
and remove that many +1/+1 counters from it.
Whenever a +1/+1 counter is removed from
Protean Hydra, put two +1/+1 counters on it
at the beginning of the end step.
0/0


Thoughts?

Koby
06-28-2009, 11:06 PM
So for the same cost, you can get your guy Shocked and die?

You'd have to cast it at least for X = 4, and then it's still only as big as a Tarmogoyf and dies to it.

BreathWeapon
06-29-2009, 12:12 AM
I think it's mana intensive, it really needed to be 1/1 base P/T in order to be playable IMO.

Have you tried Yoda or River Boa?

Goaswerfraiejen
06-29-2009, 12:21 AM
I think it's mana intensive, it really needed to be 1/1 base P/T in order to be playable IMO.

Have you tried Yoda or River Boa?

Yoda? You'll have to forgive me, but I haven't a clue as to which card that is.


I haven't tried River Boa in ages, no, but I'd love a chance to bust them out again. It's one of my favourite cards. :smile:

conboy31
06-29-2009, 12:40 AM
Yoda? You'll have to forgive me, but I haven't a clue as to which card that is.


I haven't tried River Boa in ages, no, but I'd love a chance to bust them out again. It's one of my favourite cards. :smile:

Yoda is mildly used for Troll Ascetic.

I might try this deck out, but a change I would look into after browsing the various lists would be +4 snuff outs, +0 Shriekmaws -> 3 snuff outs + 1 Shriekmaw. I think the tradeoff of tempo might be less than the tricks that can be done over the long haul and in addition a threat in case the gy gets hosed.

Goaswerfraiejen
06-29-2009, 01:12 AM
Yoda is mildly used for Troll Ascetic.

I might try this deck out, but a change I would look into after browsing the various lists would be +4 snuff outs, +0 Shriekmaws -> 3 snuff outs + 1 Shriekmaw. I think the tradeoff of tempo might be less than the tricks that can be done over the long haul and in addition a threat in case the gy gets hosed.

Glad you're interested. One minor point, however (unless I misunderstood you): the deck currently runs 3 Snuffs and a Shriekmaw already. :smile: In my estimation, 'maw does the work that a Snuff Out would, but also enables some recursion and can act as a threat if necessary, which makes it well worth running in that slot. Plus, four Snuff Outs can get too costly too quickly.

Goaswerfraiejen
07-04-2009, 04:56 PM
To go back a few posts, I re-read Protean Hydra and realized how wrong I was. I thought it worked like the Phantom-cycle of creatures (remove one counter every time it's damaged, and prevent that damage), in which case it really would have been amazing. Since you have to remove as many counters as the damage dealt, it's definitely not playable here.

I've been testing out Boa and Troll, and have a few things to report. The first is fairly obvious: running anything other than Coatl/a blue creature means going back to Ponder rather than Top, otherwise the blue count will be too low to consistently support FoW. But that's all right, and not a big deal.

River Boa: Has the advantage of being cheaper on both the casting and regenerating fronts, making it easier to recur. Unfortunately, that also makes it more vulnerable to Counterbalance-based decks, the very decks against which its Islandwalk ability is so relevant (and so amazing). There is another downside, however: against those very Counterbalance-based decks, Boa tends to bite Swords to Plowshares if it flies in under Counterbalance's radar, which nullifies its regeneration. Against Goblins and Merfolk, on the other hand, this little guy is pretty stellar thanks to easy regeneration. Easy regeneration also favours early Deeds.

Troll Ascetic: Troll's one-sided shroud makes it a much more significant threat against most decks, although I've found that I almost never use its regeneration. Even if I blow up Deed, I seldom have enough to spare to regenerate Troll, unless it's the turn after casting Deed. Its three-mana cost also helps it to evade Counterbalance locks, making it a very significant threat in that matchup (after all, it's immune to most of their control elements).

The downside of either creature, of course, is that it denies the consistency of Top-based deck manipulation. Overall, I think that my sympathies lie with River Boa just because of the Goblins and Merfolk matchups, which it helps tremendously. As far as Counterbalance-control goes, this deck can already handle it on its own. As far as other matchups go, however, I'm still uncertain as to what is best. I'll post again once I've got enough testing down to know. Also, I'm heading to Europe for a few weeks, so it may take some time. Unless I find some local Legacy while I'm kicking around, anyway.

BreathWeapon
07-09-2009, 10:03 PM
So, I'm more or less finished with Pernicious Deed MD, instead of casting Pernicious Deed we should be casting Natural Order -> Progenitus. Pernicious Deeds are either hit or miss vs aggro, but Natural Order will GG aggro 100% if resolved. Now that we aren't sweeping the board, Counterbalance/Sensei's Divining Top can be played, so we're improving both the aggro and the control match up.

Something along the lines of,

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Intuition
1 Genesis
1 Life from the Loam
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Island
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Academy Ruins
1 Dryad Arbor

Solpugid
07-10-2009, 12:50 PM
but Natural Order will GG aggro 100% if resolved.

I have been advocating the dropping of deed as well, due to being too slow against aggro, but this statement a little bit of an exaggeration. Even a third turn progenitus takes 2 more turns to kill, which leaves plenty of time for goblins, elves, sligh, etc. to finish off your last life. I'm not saying NO->prog is incorrect to play, but a darkheart sliver is just as good at slowing aggro decks.

BreathWeapon
07-10-2009, 01:45 PM
I have been advocating the dropping of deed as well, due to being too slow against aggro, but this statement a little bit of an exaggeration. Even a third turn progenitus takes 2 more turns to kill, which leaves plenty of time for goblins, elves, sligh, etc. to finish off your last life. I'm not saying NO->prog is incorrect to play, but a darkheart sliver is just as good at slowing aggro decks.

I didn't mean NO=GG regardless of the situation, what I meant was Pernicious Deed clears the board while NO dominates the board, i.e. Pernicious Deed does nothing left unchecked while NO ends the game by virtue of attacking.

NO is pro-active, which is what makes it good.

I really like that list tho', about all I wonder about is whether or not Daze should be Counterspell (you want your land drops), but Counterspell is so bad vs Daze and Spellsnare :(

Benie Bederios
07-18-2009, 08:55 AM
Hi guys,

I was working on a Demigod deck but after alot of time I changed to something that might be comparable with this deck... Note that I didn't follow this thread so I might be playing some things that might look weird.

Well here is the list anyway


4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Windsept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp

1 Shriekmaw
1 Eternal Witiness
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant

1 Life from the Loam
3 Daze
3 Intuition
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Raven's Crime
3 Diabolic Edict
4 Spell Snare

// Sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
3 Krosan Grip
3 Blue Elemental BLast
3 Extirpate
4 Engineered Plague
Allright after screening this thread I didn't see Dark Confidant and I wondered why not. I really needed an additional( next to Goyf) easily playable thread and Confidant was the best choice. I tried Nimble Mongoose and Tombstalker, but it took to much time for Mongoose to grow and Tombstalker was to hard to cast. I do miss another beater though

I didn't like the incarnation, well actually I did like the incarnations, but I didn't like drawing them, so I left them out. With Dark Confidant I couldn't play Snuff Out, so I chose Diabolic Edict and a single Pulse for it. It works quite nice.

No Wastelands, because this deck is to slow to take advantage of it. You probably need Stifles to complement it. Spell Snares instead of Thoughtseize because of a) Dark Confidant and b) Force of Will.

Anyway the deck works quite nice and is very much fun to play.

On a sidenote I did made a deck with Wastelands, it's the above deck with the following changes:


-4 Dark Confidant
-1 Flooded Strand
-1 Underground Sea
-1 Cephalid Coliseaum
-3 Diabolic Edict
-1 Maelstrom Pulse
-4 Spell Snare
-1 Ponder

+4 Nimble Mongoose
+3 Wasteland
+4 Snuff Out
+1 Daze
+4 Stifle

Any that's about it.

Benie

EDIT: P.S. I want to play this deck in a month in a quite varied metagame without much combo, but lots of Merfolk, Zoo and Loam. So I need to optimalize the deck for that meta

Goaswerfraiejen
07-19-2009, 12:56 PM
Currently in Paris, will be back late tomorrow. Just going to quickly answer one question:





Allright after screening this thread I didn't see Dark Confidant and I wondered why not. I really needed an additional( next to Goyf) easily playable thread and Confidant was the best choice.

1. Check the opening thread: look at your average CMC, your number of fetches, and factor in FoW. It is simply too much life loss to bear.

2. In addition to killing you faster, Confidant is a pitiful threat.


I look forward to returning to this thread full time. Thanks for all of your comments.

Goaswerfraiejen
07-21-2009, 01:08 PM
Agh, I just spent almost an hour typing out a long reply, then lost it. This is the gist of it, however:


I'm not sold on the Progenitus model for a number of reasons:

1.) Even if it's better, it's a totally different deck. For reasons that I think are obvious, I'd prefer to continue to develop this concept as much as possible.

2.) Even if incorporating the Progenitus combo is the way to go, I'm unconvinced about changing the deck's base so radically. From what I've seen (and I readily admit that I'd need much more Prog-testing experience to affirm this confidently), the combo commits you to all-or-nothing attack plans. Once Progenitus hits, it becomes very difficult for the deck to win if it can't be made to attack every turn. Once you have to hold it back defensively, you're in trouble. I see this being especially relevant against Affinity, Goblins, Merfolk, Zoo, and Team America (or Tombstalker-based decks). By contrast, Deed forces the opponent to develop his or her position more slowly, especially when coupled with significant amounts of spot removal. In this way, Deed allows for easy transitions between aggressive and defensive attack phases, as well as one-critter swings. I have a hard time seeing the NO-PROG combo working out the same way. Deed-recovery is fairly easy; recovering from a lagging Progenitus-position, on the other hand, seems much more difficult to me--but to be fair, I need more experience with it.

3.) So much board development goes into the combo, whereas comparatively little goes into Deed. What I am getting at here is that even if Progenitus is more pro-active than Deed (I rather like that argument, actually), the situations in which each is desirable are fundamentally different. With Progenitus, my understanding is that you want to land it as often as possible, in order to win by your sixth or seventh turn. Deed, however, can appear at just about any time, and it seems to me that it still turns the tide of battle more permanently, if (on occasion) less immediately decisively. I use Deed as a deterrant, an exit strategy; Progenitus, however, I would use as my hammer and forget about exit strategies entirely. The consequence of that move, however, is that Progenitus is much less useful if, for some reason, you're on the defensive, whereas Deed is less useful when you're on the offensive. But consider this: if you're already on the offensive, then don't additions to that campaign smack of win-more?


Basically, I'm a cautious player, and so am not convinced that this is the direction to go. At least, certainly not all-in. Using Deed's slots for other purposes is just fine, but I just don't think that NO-PROG is a much better way to go.

Benie: I'm overjoyed that you're considering running a version of the deck at your tournament. I'd be more than happy to load it up and see if I can leave you with any ideas or comments over the course of this week, useless or wrongheaded as they may prove to be. Good luck!

Thank you all for your continued interest, posts, and patience with me. I'll be testing Progenitus out over the next few weeks to see if my concerns are valid, and I hope that you'll do the same and report here on that deck's various pros and cons, as well as on whether or not UGB I-T's fundamental principles can somehow be conserved in such a version.

Thanks,
-Goas

BreathWeapon
07-25-2009, 03:36 AM
So, I've been mulling over some of the "secondary threat" options we have, and I came up with Putrid Leech. The obvious advantage is that it's a cost effective, non graveyard reliant beater that stands above Goblins, Nacatls and goes toe to toe with anything but MoE in Affinity. Obviously, we have to drop Snuff Out and Thought Seize, but we can just sub those for Shriekmaw and Spellsnare. I've also been looking at Bitterblossom pretty hard, a non symmetric, evasive threat that can swarm the opponent if left unchecked seems really damn good. Obviously it has little to no synergy with our recursion engine and sweepers, but the card may be so powerful by itself it warrants inclusion regardless.

I definitely feel we need to find our second threat in this deck, because as it stands we're just kind of a janky "It's The Fear."

Goaswerfraiejen
07-25-2009, 12:33 PM
So, I've been mulling over some of the "secondary threat" options we have, and I came up with Putrid Leech. The obvious advantage is that it's a cost effective, non graveyard reliant beater that stands above Goblins, Nacatls and goes toe to toe with anything but MoE in Affinity. Obviously, we have to drop Snuff Out and Thought Seize, but we can just sub those for Shriekmaw and Spellsnare. I've also been looking at Bitterblossom pretty hard, a non symmetric, evasive threat that can swarm the opponent if left unchecked seems really damn good. Obviously it has little to no synergy with our recursion engine and sweepers, but the card may be so powerful by itself it warrants inclusion regardless.



I do agree that finding an appropriate secondary beater is a defining issue, but I'm unconvinced by Putrid Leech. Mostly, that's because the changes required to accommodate the lifeloss don't seem particularly beneficial. I'd rather run Lorescale Coatl instead, since it allows us to run Top instead of Ponder (although you sometimes end up losing a beater to FoW, which is unfortunate).

I've currently been testing Ravenous Baloth, with surprisingly positive results. The downside has been its high converted mana cost. What this suggests to me, however, is that perhaps Kitchen Finks is a better compromise, since you gain the life anyway and it will survive a Deed activation/combat while beating for a fairly significant amount.


One way to go about it, however, would be just to compile a list of options. For example, I can think of these options as plausible (some obviously being better than others):


Bitterblossom - Harsh on the life total, tokens are not synergistic with board-clearing strategies, vulnerable to Counterbalance, minimal late-game effect (notably: doesn't net a token immediately). Early castings enable significant swarms, however.

Boggart Ram-Gang - Significant threat, lasting effect on the board, haste. Downside: difficult colour requirements.

Ebony Treefolk - Significant threat, cheap, and pumpable. Downside: colour requirements.

Golgari Brownscale - Provides life and recursion, but a small enough threat that dredging it would prove questionable.

Graveshell Scarab - Evades control magic effects, large body, easy recursion. Downside: high mana cost and colour requirements make it implausible as a secondary beater.

Kitchen Finks - Low cost that evades Counterbalance, strong beater, mild recursion, life gain.

Lorescale Coatl - See my discussion in previous posts.

Nyxathid - Excellent beater, but less effective vs. Standstill, combo, and company, and difficult colour requirements.

Putrid Leech - See my discussion in previous posts.

Ravenous Baloth - Strong beater, evades control magic and gains life. Downside: fairly high cost.

Restless Apparition - Low cost, pump, mild recursion. Downside: difficult colour requirements, even with Hierarch.

River Boa - See my discussion in previous posts.

Selkie Hedge-Mage - Not much of a threat, but it's easy to cast and recur, can affect board position, can gain you some life, and pitches to FoW (making a return to Top over Ponder possible). Benefits from enemy LOA.

Shambling Shell - Avoids control magic effects, easy recursion, fair threat, and can be used to pump a creature.

Spike Feeder - Gains life and avoids control magic, but little else. Can transfer counters, but that requires another creature and makes us more vulnerable to control magic effects.

Stalker Hag - Significant threat, useful evasion, decent mana requirements.

Sturdy Hatchling - Shroud, large body, evades Counterbalance, easy mana requirements, pitches to FoW (making a return to Top over Ponder possible but perhaps unwanted, given its downside). Downside: fairly small immediate effect on the board, but that can grow fairly quickly.

Terravore - Excellent beater, but graveyard dependent. Will it be large enough to make a difference?

Tombstalker - See my discussion in previous posts.

Troll Ascetic - See my discussion in previous posts.

Trygon Predator - Handy mana cost, evasion, destroys enemy resources, pitches to FoW (making a return to Top over Ponder possible).

Undead Gladiator - A fair threat, but double-black is more difficult, and its recursion would compete with Stronghold activations in particular. Cycling is a boon, however.

Wanderbrine Rootcutters - Minor evasion, immunity to black removal, strong threat, acceptable mana cost, benefits from enemy LOA. Pitches to FoW, enabling a return to Top over Ponder.

Wasp Lancer - Good threat, evasion, pitches to FoW (making a return to Top over Ponder possible).

Wild Mongrel - See my discussion in previous posts.


I put my preferred options in bold. Feel free to point out when I'm just being a moron. There are a few factors that I really like/am looking for when it comes to the cards above:

-Impact on the board. That's a must.
-Pitching to FoW, which enables a return to the stability offered by Top.
-Life gain, which this deck certainly won't object to.
-Recursion, a mainstay of this deck.
-Evading control magic effects, which is a huge plus for the deck's recursion engines.
-Resilience to removal.
-A casting cost that generally evades Counterbalance/Spell Snare, but which nonetheless is still easy to cast.


According to these criteria, I'm particularly excited by Kitchen Finks, Selkie Hedge-Mage (lol! I know it doesn't really fulfill the beatstick role that we're looking for--I just enjoy the thought of lategame recursion. I doubt it's actually playable.), Shambling Shell, Trygon Predator, and Wanderbrine Rootcutters, which are options that I hadn't really considered earlier. Any thoughts? Better options?

Goaswerfraiejen
08-03-2009, 09:28 AM
So... after a fair bit of testing, I have to report that Kitchen Finks is my favourite of the "new" options. At three mana, it still dodges Counterbalance, and it directly complements three of the deck's strategies/needs: helps to stabilize the life total, it's a significant beater (made even better by Noble Hierarch), and has built-in recursion. And even if it's stolen by Threads or Sower, at least it returns to you (and gives you the life) when it dies.

Boa, Ascetic, and Coatl all work pretty well too, but losing Boas and Coatls to control magic effects is pretty disastrous. Ascetic is also very strong, although its regeneration sees less use.

There are still two options that I have not tested adequately: Shambling Shell and Great Sable Stag. I hadn't even considered the Stag before, but it's got some very good properties:

-Immunity to control magic effects (which are blue, minus Shackles)
-Immunity to half the removal in the format (which is black)
-Guaranteed drop (no counterspells or counterbalance will affect it)
-Significant threat with adequate defense
-Blocks merfolk and random black critters all day


So that's the state of the contest for me now: it's a race between Kitchen Finks, Troll Ascetic, Shambling Shell, and Great Sable Stag. I'd be happy with any of the three, however. Three mana is the sweet spot, the perfect balance between speed (turns 2-3), Counterbalance immunity, effect on board position, and castability.

BreathWeapon
08-03-2009, 09:43 AM
The problem tho' is our 2cc slot is seriously underutilized, and if you play Coatl, you may as well play Top, and if you play Top you may as well play CB etc. I'm a big fan of Boa, because it goes toe to toe with Tarmogoyf, Island Walks for 2 and regenerates thru' Deed while being 2cc. Anything more than Intuition and Deed just make the deck top heavy, and I doubt any of those 3cc threats are better than Tombstalker at that rate.

ZZZ
08-05-2009, 06:11 AM
I've been following this discussion from the beginning and I finally got around to sleeving up the deck. I used BreathWeapon's list because I think he made some very valid points when he said not to play to many one-offs.

I've been liking the deck so far but I have 2 issues with the deck:
1. Beaters: this list only plays Goyf and Werebear and I really think an additional threath is necessary. Tombstalker seems like a good option to me (as mentioned here a couple of times); has anybody tested him?
2. Spot removal: I've played Eva Green in the past and Snuff Out is perfect for that deck because it is a tempo deck. However I don't really like Snuff Out in this deck. This is not a fast tempo (suicide-style) deck like Eva Green and therefore the life loss is often relevant. I'm currently trying Smother and a single Shriekmaw in that slot but I'm not convinced yet.
My question: do you guys think it would be possible to splash white for StP. I would minimize the black in such a list (only Deed and Thoughtseize) and probably play Hierarch instead of Werebear (obviously with an additional beater - Knight o/t Reliquary comes to mind)???

One more thing: has anybody tried to run a single manland (Factory)? You can get it with an Intuition pile with Loam before you blow up a Deed...

Thanks

BreathWeapon
08-05-2009, 12:47 PM
I really, really like Tombstalker, altho' being graveyard reliant and being +2cc is the opposite direction I'd like to go in. Regardless, he's just a stupidly good threat who avoids Tarmogoyf, Balance and Deed, so it may very well be inevitable.

As far as Mandlands, Gargoyle Castle seems really cool, if not very practical.

Right now I'm running,

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
1 Raven's Crime
4 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Genesis
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Shriekmaw
1 Life from the Loam
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Wasteland

Basically, I just head straight for the resource war with Balanced Thresh and hope Deed, Intuition and Tombstalker mitigate their Balance/Top (you're also more or less Snare proof). It's sort of like Team America meets It's The Fear, except of instead of Team America's early mana disruption you swap it for It's The Fear's middle/late game staying power.

ZZZ
08-06-2009, 06:44 AM
I really like that list. How has it been for you so far?
I agree with you on Tombstalker. The last tournament I was in, I played a AggroRock style deck (basically Eva Green with white splash and confidant, top which can become more of a Rock deck post board) and I found out once again how absolutely ridiculous Tombstalker can be.

I'm currently testing this list:
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Thoughtseize
1 Raven's Crime
4 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Genesis

3 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Island
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Mishra’s Factory
1 Wasteland

BreathWeapon
08-06-2009, 09:22 AM
It runs over control and aggro-control, but it has issues with mana disruption based aggro-control decks and swarm aggro like Goblins. Surprisingly, it rapes Merfolk pretty hard, I usually win unless Relic hits ... which obviously sucks.

Benie Bederios
08-10-2009, 08:52 AM
Alright,

I'm back from holiday without Magic, but quite some time to ponder and the Tournament is Sunday. I already tested Tombstalker without succes, zo I'm back on Nimble Mongoose. Wasteland Stifle isn't that strong in my meta so I removed Stifle and cut down Wasteland to one. Here is my current list.


// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [R] Tropical Island
3 [R] Underground Sea
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [R] Bayou
1 [GUR] Forest
1 [GUR] Island
1 [GUR] Swamp
1 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
1 [LRW] Shriekmaw
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
1 [JU] Genesis

// Spells
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
3 [NE] Daze
4 [TE] Intuition
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [LRW] Ponder
1 [EVE] Raven's Crime
3 [MM] Snuff Out
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague


I'm testing Genisis now, because it actually gives cardadvantage. funny enough I don't have a Volrath's Stronghold, so it's not in the list yet. I upped Intuition to four, because I found I drew them not often enough and because a second is rarely dead.

Noble Hierarch although nice isn't a beater.

Any comment?

Benie

BreathWeapon
08-10-2009, 10:14 AM
Goose isn't a bad bet, he's become more useful in the face of Zoo since he stands toe to toe with every non-Goyf threat and is immune to burn, however he's still a liability in the aggro-control mirror.

Any thoughts on Wild Mongrel?

Goaswerfraiejen
08-14-2009, 07:23 PM
@Benie: Mongoose is still really, really good. I abandoned it in favour of Hierarch solely to help stabilise the manabase in the face of a hateful general environment. Hell, it may still turn out that Mongoose is the best option for a secondary beatstick, Counterbalance be damned. In any case, there's nothing wrong with opting for the pro-Mongoose/non-Hierarch route. I'm just glad you're picking the deck up for testing. =)

As far as Stronghold goes, it's clearly inferior to Genesis. I like its inclusion because it complements Genesis, and helps to negate graveyard hate's effects. In that way, it adds redundancy (a good thing) and inevitability. In your list, I think it would do best replacing Coliseum, should you decide to include it (to get around potential/probable mana and life issues--Coliseum's great, but not necessary).

My only other comment would be that 4 Thoughtseize is probably too many, especially with Snuff Out (and Coliseum, 7 Fetches, and 4 FoW). I'd say that three is the absolute maximum (since they're less useful later on than Raven's Crime, which we run anyway).


@Breathweapon: Mongrel's a possibility, and a good contendor. It can easily dodge most black removal, and can occasionally dodge control-magic effects like Shackles. When we ran it originally, it pulled its own weight primarily as a defender, dissuading opposing Tarmogoyfs. With Wonder in the main deck, of course, it's much more attractive. ;)

I haven't tested Mongrel in the current version of the deck that I'm running (with Hierarch and Pulse), but I will, and I'll report. That's really all I can say, myself, without having tested it in my current version. Everything that I said about it in earlier versions of the deck still stands, I think.

Goaswerfraiejen
08-25-2009, 04:36 PM
Just wanted to mention that although I'm still more or less undecided about the secondary beater, I've started work on a new primer, since the deck that I'm advocating is now radically different from what it was. I won't be posting it until after Zendikar is completely spoiled, however. That's for two reasons:

1.) My upcoming MA thesis defence puts some constraints on the time that I can devote to it for now.
2.) Zendikar might have a useable goody or two, or might have an impact on the format in general. Best to know as much as possible before publishing the primer, rather than having to amend it.

Infinitium
09-11-2009, 04:23 PM
So. Looks like this deck got it's secondary beater all right. I think I'm'a cook something like this up soon enough.

Goaswerfraiejen
09-11-2009, 08:09 PM
So. Looks like this deck got it's secondary beater all right. I think I'm'a cook something like this up soon enough.

Yeah, Kitchen Finks has been nothing but good to me. It does everything and anything that you could hope to ask it to: it regenerates, it swings for a significant amount (more, with Hierarchs), and it mitigates life loss from Snuff Out and company. I couldn't really ask for more.


I'd say that I'm about 20% done re-writing the primer. But I was wondering a couple of things, and I'd value everyone's input.

1.) Should I start a new post, or is everyone tired of seeing new posts for an expensive deck that few people play?

2.) Is there a way that I can maybe upload a PDF somewhere and then use that for the primer, rather than copy/pasting huge blocks of text into 5+ posts?

Goaswerfraiejen
09-25-2009, 01:32 PM
Quick update:

I'm roughly 42% done updating at this point. I think I've found a site that will host the PDF, so I think I'll just do it that way and save server- and post-space here. Unfortunately, that means that I have to undo my UBB Coding and fix the hypertext links, and that's a menial chore that takes forever.


Now that Zendikar is fully spoiled and I'm done defending my thesis, I expect this newest primer to be up in a couple of weeks. Zendikar seems to have added very little to the deck beyond enemy fetch possibilities, which at least saves me some testing.

Infinitium
09-26-2009, 06:15 PM
Scute Bug seems decent enough seeing as it's a cheap tempo play early and it becomes huge once the deck enters the midgame. Probably not better than Mongoose, but warrants testing imo.

Hanni
10-02-2009, 10:45 PM
I've been playing a large amount of different decks lately, and I've come up with a better direction for this deck, I think.

Rather than try to give Threshold a better lategame, and blend a super-tempo oriented deck with a slow control deck, and rather than try to mix aggro/control with (board) control, I think mixing Aggro Loam with Loam Control would be the better route. AKA:

U/G/b Aggro/Control Loam

Lands (22)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Wasteland
3 Lonely Sandbar

Creatures (13)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Terravore
3 Shriekmaw
1 Gigapede
1 Genesis

Spells (22)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Raven's Crime
3 Maelstrom Pulse

Sideboard (15)
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Krosan Grip
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Duress

The deck no longer needs a 1cc 3/3 untargetable in the current format we are in, and there is absolutely no reason to not run Terravore in Intuition/Loam. 3cc is not much to ask from this deck, and huge tramplers just wins games.

The only reason to splash black is for Raven's Crime and Shriekmaw, otherwise you'd be better off going white. White offers similar cards for the other roles (StP, Oblivion Ring, Wrath of God, etc), and Knight of the Reliquary is pretty badass. For those versions of Intuition Thresh not running Raven's Crime but running black... what is wrong with you? I do believe that the black splash is the better splash, though.

Cephalid Coliseum is pretty dumb. Gigapede does the same discard effect but is actually a relevant card for your strategy, and Coliseum's card quality exchange is inferior to Lonely Sandbar. Lonely Sandbar is amazing in here, essentially making Loam a. [1GUUU: draw 3 cards] spell every turn you need to draw cards, in the mid-late game. Of course, you don't need all 3 Sandbar's for this to be effective, and running 3 works out beautifully with Intuition (this is tried and true from my Loam Control deck I've been playing alot lately).

The deck generates massive card advantage through Loam/cyclers and Genesis. Combined with Raven's Crime, the deck absolutely smashes control and aggro/control. Hell, even a hardcast Shriekmaw creates card advantage. Card advantage is what this deck is all about, and why it wins games. Having big ass beats like Tarmogoyf and Terravore just make those wins faster.

4/3 Shriekmaw/Pulse is plenty enough removal MD when you're dropping big guns like Terravore.

The deck has 1 Maelstrom 4 Deed postboard to handle everything else.

Deed is great against fast aggro swarms, which is the only slight weakness I see with this deck. BEB answers red aggro very well, BEB/Duress answer combo/burn very well, and Krosan Grip/Maelstrom answer Counterbalance nicely.

The deck doesn't need graveyard hate for Ichorid; that's the only matchup you'd bring it in against, and you have Pernicious Deed. With Daze/FoW/Goyf, the deck can easily hit 3 land drops to Deed for 0 before dying to tokens.

The only slightly difficult matchups I see are super fast aggro decks like Goyf Sligh and Goblins, which still aren't too bad and the sideboard shores that up.

Opposing Counterbalance can be troublesome, especially those lists with a 3cc curve. Luckily, this deck has the same disruption package with Force of Will and Daze, with Intuition/Raven's Crime being our Counterbalance (lock-esque card). I run 3 Pulse MD which usually answers it, and I also run 4/4/2 Pulse/Deed/Grip postboard vs them if need be (which we don't need all that, that's overkill), and a few spells out of their cc range.

Daze is still badass with Brainstorm, Ponder, Force of Will, Tarmogoyf, and Shriekmaw, because it allows the deck to stall into the mid-late with an aggro/control feel early. It also pushes through a turn 3 Intuition, which is massively important. Being set back a land drop is largely irrelevant, because this deck still does run effectively on a lower curve, has plenty of lands to make land drops, and dominates in the mid-late game anyway.

22 land is important for the deck because it can be mana hungry when it doesn't have Loam online, and more lands in the graveyard is a good thing for Terravore. With Brainstorm and Ponder, more than 22 is unecessary. I've been very satisfied with my manabase thus far.

Urborg is great for enabling an almost instant Raven's Crime lock, Wasteland only needs to be a 1-of with Intuition, and I've already discussed Lonely Sanbdar.

The deck doesn't need Worm Harvest. It's not a tutorable win condition that can fly solo like Gigapede (requires Loam to consistently have lands in hand to discard), doesn't provide anything else outside of being a slow win condition (discard effect for Genesis via Gigapede), and is no less resilient than Gigapede (untargetibility vs mass swarm of 1/1's). It's a solid anti-mass aggro answer, but it's honestly too slow to be relevant against those decks anyway. Worm Harvest is great in Loam Control but totally unnecessary in here.

This current decklist seems to improve Aggro Loam's bad matchups without sacrificing many of it's good ones. Evolution of Aggro Loam, maybe? Seems like the right direction for both CounterTop Thresh to go, too (obv Canadian Threshold has its niche).

The only thing I'm considering is whether or not Mox Diamond would be worth the space.

Thoughts?

BreathWeapon
10-03-2009, 03:26 AM
I bet Terravore isn't that much better/worse than Tombstalker, and Lonely Sandbar isn't nearly as good as you say it is, because it eats 3 slots compared to Cephalid Coliseums 0 slots.

Hanni
10-03-2009, 05:30 AM
I bet Terravore isn't that much better/worse than Tombstalker, and Lonely Sandbar isn't nearly as good as you say it is, because it eats 3 slots compared to Cephalid Coliseums 0 slots.

Tombstalker eats your graveyard to be a 5/5 flyer, whether it costs BB (optimal), or more than BB. Terravore comes down as large as the lands are, whether that be 7/7 or 14/14, and trample is relatively the same as flying, when guys get that big. He doesn't eat your yard, and can be continuously recurred by Genesis, so unless the opponent has Swords to Plowshares, Terravore is eventually going to end the game. Tombstalker eats your yard each time, which contradicts this decks gameplan. In no way are the two comparable. Aggro Loam is R/G/b, should they drop Terravore for Tombstalker?

In no way am I downplaying Tombstalker. Tombstalker is an amazing creature, and in the right decks, is absolutely devastating. In this deck, though, he's just not the best fit.

Lonely Sandbar is rediculously good. Early game, if you see them, they are cantrips. Late game, they are your draw engine. Aggro Loam runs 7 cyclers, I run 3, so I fail to see how they significantly affect the deck. My list runs 22 lands, most lists run 19, so they aren't even replacing actual lands. Try them before you knock them; Intuition for Loam/Sandbar/Sandbar is sometimes a great pile.

Coliseum absolutely sucks. I advocated it so hard for such a long time, but honestly, it's one of the worst cards in the deck. To use its discard effect, you're wasting your land drop. The only time it's good to waste a land drop is for a game-winning Wastelock. Otherwise, you want to mana ramp as much as possible. Gigapede is a great card regardless of its discard effect, but the discard effect on its own replaces Coliseum. Coliseum's card quality trade in for Loam requires a land drop, another blue source, and only gives you +2 card advantage (because Coliseum takes away 1), and is no way near as smooth as Lonely Sandbar. Not only that, Sandbar is amazing at dodging gy hate against Loam, like Crypt and Relic (resp, Sanbdar, dredge Loam to hand).

I can't explain why the decklist I posted is so innovatingly amazing, I can only ask that you please test it. I know that it's downright disgusting, and can easily be a DTB if enough people play it.

HOWEVER, I forgot to add 1 Life from the Loam to the decklist I posted. So I need to cut 1 card to fit it. That really sucks, because the list seemed so perfect. I can't cut Pulse down to 2, because 3 makes it tutorable with Intuition if necessary. Seems like Shriekmaw is the only possible cut, so there it is.

BreathWeapon
10-03-2009, 09:36 AM
Fair enough, even still, what's the point of not running Balance/Top if you're not running Pernicious Deed? If all you're running is Force/Daze, you're incredibly disruption light. I'm also still not convinced Terravore is going to get any bigger than Lorescale, Terravore is pretty "meh" until you bin Intuition/Loam.

Hanni
10-03-2009, 12:51 PM
Fair enough, even still, what's the point of not running Balance/Top if you're not running Pernicious Deed? If all you're running is Force/Daze, you're incredibly disruption light. I'm also still not convinced Terravore is going to get any bigger than Lorescale, Terravore is pretty "meh" until you bin Intuition/Loam.

CB/Top is mainly unnecessary. What CB/Top does for Threshold is give it a mid-late game engine that creates card advantage and a potential lock. What this deck does instead is utilize a different engine as a means of card advantage and a potential lock (Raven's Crime/Wasteland). If the deck had enough room to fit the CB/Top combo, I'd gladly run it. I don't, so I don't.

FoW/Daze is disruption light, but how is that any worse than Aggro Loam's current 4 Chalice of the Void? The only matchup that's relevant against is combo, which your less likely to come up against than other matchups. Postboard, BEB/Duress is enough to do what needs to be done.

Terravore vs Lorescale is like the difference between Werebear and Quirion Dryad. Terravore comes down big, Lorescale has to grow first. With or without the Loam engine, Terravore is still going to be big, and the fact that he has trample is what makes him truly lethal. In all honesty, why would you not run him in a Loam shell? Lorescale's not bad, but as an immediate cast, it's only a 2/2, and requires Brainstorm/Ponder/Lonely Sandbar to get an immediate grow. Even if Lorescale grows to a 14/14, a simple 1/1 is going to chump block it unless you hit it with removal. It's best point is that it's blue for FoW, but I already run 20 blue spells.

BreathWeapon
10-03-2009, 01:28 PM
I don't really see why you keep comparing it to aggro-loam, it's really just an Intuition fueled aggro-control deck. I mean, the big difference between aggro-loam and this is that aggro-loam actually beats Zoo and Goblins - I'm not really convinced this deck manages vs the swarm really well. That's where Balance/Top is pretty much amazing, it's a lock that counters, where Zoo is just going to top deck their burn vs your Raven's Crime and burn you out.

I really don't think there's been much of an improvement, Force/Daze doesn't really deal with combo and now you're getting beat on by aggro to boot with out Deed.

Goaswerfraiejen
10-03-2009, 01:31 PM
Glad to see another post by you, Hanni. Although I'm not convinced that the Aggro-Loam option is better than the Hierarch/Finks/Snuff Out option, I'll be testing it out comparatively before releasing my new primer. After all, if your option is better, then my primer would be a little off the mark.

What I like and think that I can incorporate is the use of Urborg to stabilise Raven's Crime, making it more effective: I've been running a second basic Swamp, but Urborg makes a great deal of sense. The one question would be whether or not it interferes with the intuition pile (I assume you can't usually fetch Wasteland, but that's OK). In any case, I'll be giving that a spin in my own version as well.

What I don't like is the fact that Terravore means that graveyard hate will be coming in against the deck. Currently, people see Genesis or Loam and decide to bring in the graveyard hate, not realising that it's virtually useless and a waste of slots. When you're beating with Terravore, however, they're guaranteed to bring it in, and it won't be such a waste: it'll neutralise Terravore, as well as be effective against Genesis and Loam. That makes it a lot harder to play around the hate. Of course, Vore's sheer power may be sufficient to ensure that this isn't a serious problem, and can still be played around effectively. Nonetheless, it's a prima facie concern for me. Like Breathweapon, I'm unconvinced about the deck's ability to handle Zoo or Goblins/Merfolk, especially by comparison to my version. If true, then that's a serious concern. But that definitely requires testing to determine.

I will, however, be testing it out alongside my own version to see how different matchups play out.


Also: you're right about CB/Top and Coliseum, and I'm inclined to agree on Vore vs. Tombstalker/Coatl. Still, I'm extremely happy with Finks and Hierarch. :tongue:

Hanni
10-03-2009, 02:51 PM
I don't really see why you keep comparing it to aggro-loam, it's really just an Intuition fueled aggro-control deck. I mean, the big difference between aggro-loam and this is that aggro-loam actually beats Zoo and Goblins - I'm not really convinced this deck manages vs the swarm really well. That's where Balance/Top is pretty much amazing, it's a lock that counters, where Zoo is just going to top deck their burn vs your Raven's Crime and burn you out.

I really don't think there's been much of an improvement, Force/Daze doesn't really deal with combo and now you're getting beat on by aggro to boot with out Deed.

Your standard aggro/control countermagic package, Shriekmaw, and Tarmogoyf play a similar early game as Threshold, which manages to keep Goblins and Zoo at bay early. This is already tried and true. The deck lacks a sweep like Devastating Dreams, but gains increased consistency and enough card advantage to answer what's on the table. Not every aspect of the deck is relevant against fast swarm aggro.

The deck has a mass sweep in the sideboard with Pernicious Deed. If you feel that your particular metagame is extremely aggro-centric, swap them into the maindeck in place of Maelstrom Pulse.

However, those matchups aren't the bad one. The bad matchups are Burn and Goyf Sligh. CB/Top is a great answer to this, but at what extent of other matchups are sacrificed by blending a conflicting engine? If you plan to use the CB/Top engine, you're better off going the Threshold route. There is not enough space to effectively use both and they conflict with internal strategies.


Glad to see another post by you, Hanni. Although I'm not convinced that the Aggro-Loam option is better than the Hierarch/Finks/Snuff Out option, I'll be testing it out comparatively before releasing my new primer. After all, if your option is better, then my primer would be a little off the mark.

What I like and think that I can incorporate is the use of Urborg to stabilise Raven's Crime, making it more effective: I've been running a second basic Swamp, but Urborg makes a great deal of sense. The one question would be whether or not it interferes with the intuition pile (I assume you can't usually fetch Wasteland, but that's OK). In any case, I'll be giving that a spin in my own version as well.

What I don't like is the fact that Terravore means that graveyard hate will be coming in against the deck. Currently, people see Genesis or Loam and decide to bring in the graveyard hate, not realising that it's virtually useless and a waste of slots. When you're beating with Terravore, however, they're guaranteed to bring it in, and it won't be such a waste: it'll neutralise Terravore, as well as be effective against Genesis and Loam. That makes it a lot harder to play around the hate. Of course, Vore's sheer power may be sufficient to ensure that this isn't a serious problem, and can still be played around effectively. Nonetheless, it's a prima facie concern for me. Like Breathweapon, I'm unconvinced about the deck's ability to handle Zoo or Goblins/Merfolk, especially by comparison to my version. If true, then that's a serious concern. But that definitely requires testing to determine.

I will, however, be testing it out alongside my own version to see how different matchups play out.


Also: you're right about CB/Top and Coliseum, and I'm inclined to agree on Vore vs. Tombstalker/Coatl. Still, I'm extremely happy with Finks and Hierarch.

The other approach is also viable. Many variations of the same deck are possible. The question that needs to be determined is which one preforms better against a wider variety of matchups, or which one improves the worse matchups without weakening the good ones too much. My approach may be the wrong approach, but it's worth investigating.

Terravore is affected by both graveyards, so the only true answer is Relic. Most opposing decks that run Tarmogoyf don't run Relic. Relic can be problematic, but it's very easy to rebuild the graveyard when you're holding a Lonely Sandbar in hand to dredge Loam back.

Graveyard hate is also counterable. The only unanswerable graveyard hate is Extirpate, which does nothing to affect Terravore.

You know, I came up with the list off of a whim. What I did was mold the deck more after Aggro Loam, since this deck itself has a similar gameplan and Aggro Loam is a tried and true archetype. The difference is that this deck adds blue, which is a better base color in my opinion, and improves alot of Aggro Loam's problems. What I mean is, my current decklist is not necessarily optimal. The aggro matchup is something that I did fail to truly investigate. If the aggro matchup truly is a difficult or bad matchup, it is not very difficult to swap the maindeck Maelstrom Pulses for Pernicious Deed. That's probably the best route to go, and regardless, that makes Terravore even better because the majority of Deed activations are for 2.

U/G/b Aggro/Control Loam

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [U] Tropical Island
2 [A] Underground Sea
1 [B] Bayou
2 [MR] Island (1)
1 [5E] Forest (1)
1 [4E] Swamp (3)
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 [TE] Wasteland
3 [ON] Lonely Sandbar

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [OD] Terravore
3 [LRW] Shriekmaw
1 [ON] Gigapede
1 [JU] Genesis

// Spells
4 [BD] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [TE] Intuition
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [DD2] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [EVE] Raven's Crime
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 4 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [A] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [DDC] Duress

Fixed.

BreathWeapon
11-07-2009, 03:11 PM
Bumping,

UGB Intuition Aggro-Control

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thought Seize
1 Raven's Crime
4 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
1 Gensis
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Shriekmaw
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Bloodghast

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Wasteland
1 Cabal Pit

Basic idea, Bloodghast does 2 things, first it fills the two drop, secondary threat slots we've been looking for while being ridiculous with Intuition. Thankfully, we're not as graveyard dependent either, because even tho' Crypt wipes us, Bloodghast gives us an extra non-Loam Intuition pile to come back with similar to Gigapede (which IMO is best in the SB). EOT Intuition for Bloodghasts, play land, play Bloodghast is 6 power on the board, which is a pretty solid clock by turn 4. You also get to wipe the board with Deed and not really care if you've got a land in hand or you're both in top deck mode.

Goaswerfraiejen
11-09-2009, 01:40 PM
Since the thread got bumped: I'm still working on the primer. I'm almost done updating the matchup analysis, which is pretty close to the end. Other than that, I just need to smooth out UBB coding issues/figure out just how I should post it.

Breathweapon: interesting list. I'll give it a spin and see what happens.

Aggro_zombies
11-09-2009, 05:04 PM
Breathweapon: Your mana is a bit iffy. I'd suggest running a Bayou over the Island, or finding a way to fit in the fourth Underground Sea. You want :b::b::g: in the first couple of turns, which will be a tall order without Urborg or a fetchland-heavy draw. Bloodghasts tend to get a lot less impressive later on as they get killed by a lot of things, requiring you to either out-creature your opponent (probably not difficult in some matchups) or get recurring Cabal Pit.

Benie Bederios
11-10-2009, 03:49 AM
I don't know if it's the right thread, but I have an experimental list...

This is my list:


// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
1 [R] Bayou
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [R] Underground Sea
1 [TE] Wasteland
1 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Creatures
3 [SHM] Demigod of Revenge
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [LRW] Shriekmaw

// Spells
4 [TE] Intuition
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [IA] Brainstorm
1 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
1 [EVE] Raven's Crime
3 [IA] Dark Ritual
3 [LRW] Ponder
2 [ON] Smother
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SC] Stifle
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip


Still testing quite some cards... The removal package for instance and I never Intuitioned for the Academy Ruins package.. And I'm not sure about the removal package.

I was looking for a second thread, instead of Mongoose. Demigod gives the deck a comboesque finish. The problem is I need more lands and Dark Ritual to power it out.

Benie

BreathWeapon
12-06-2009, 09:48 AM
Bumping, Top 8ed Moscow (3rd Place)

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thought Seize
1 Raven's Crime

4 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

3 Pernicious Deed
4 Shriekmaw

3 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Genesis

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Wasteland

SB

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Spell Pierce
3 Krosan Grip
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Gigapede

Shifted from tempo to outlast, it's kind of a cross between UGB Intuition Threshold and Team America, except instead of hitting the manabase with the Sinkhole, Stifle and Wasteland team you simply resolve Intuition and then recur the disruption over and over to grind them out of the game or draw/recur threats. Tombstalker, IMO, is the only 2ndary threat worth a damn, it slips thru' Counterbalance and Spellsnare while coming only roughly the same time as Nimble Mongoose.

The aggro match-up is a pain in the ass, but Pernicious Deed lets the deck recover nicely vs Goblins, Merfolk etc. Zoo just burns you out a lot, so I think it's important to have some kind of life gain effect in the future (and SB out Thoughtseize all day)

Goaswerfraiejen
12-06-2009, 12:28 PM
Congratulations! That's a fantastic finish. What would you thoughts have been on Kitchen Finks?


I've finished the primer for the version I'm advocating (with Hierarch, Finks, and Pulse, from a few pages ago), which is much better against aggro and Zoo than it used to be. All that's left for me to do is fix the UBB Coding so that it can be posted: I'll be sure to post your deck & results. If you have any comments you'd like included, feel free to post or PM them soon.

Illissius
12-06-2009, 01:44 PM
A deck with both Daze and Deed/Intuition-Loam in it feels schizophrenic to me. Wouldn't you be better off with some kind of disruption/tempo tool which doesn't inhibit your own mana development?

Also, with just a single Wasteland, you can only maintain Wastelock at the cost of skipping all of your draw steps. You could add either more Wastelands or a single Lonely Sandbar if you want to solve this problem.

BreathWeapon
12-07-2009, 05:57 AM
Kitchen Finks are underwhelming, they're just not a threat and I'd rather try Troll Ascetic, Vampire Nighthawk or River Boa just because they're "parody" in the aggro-control mirror. I settled on Tombstalker because Intuition -> Tombstalker is juicy, juicy goodness and I think in order to be successful all decks need non-symmetrical secondary threats vs Tarmogoyf i.e things like Tombstalker, Terravore, Vendilion Clique etc.

IMO, if you're playing Hierarch and Finks, you should probably be /w and playing Rhox Warmonks instead or dropping Deed for NO. I think Intuition based BANT is probably better than UGB Intuition-Thresh in the field right now, mainly because 4 Rhox Warmonks hitting the board on T2 is nutty vs Zoo (and Zoo was my only loss the whole tournament)

@Illisius, you recur Wasteland and Raven's Crime them with the other lands.

Goaswerfraiejen
12-07-2009, 09:43 AM
A deck with both Daze and Deed/Intuition-Loam in it feels schizophrenic to me. Wouldn't you be better off with some kind of disruption/tempo tool which doesn't inhibit your own mana development?


Daze is necessary for the combo matchup. With Hierarchs and Snuff Out, running it doesn't ultimately harm my version at all. Even if we're talking about Breathweapon's list, though, it's important in order to beat combo consistently/at all.




Also, with just a single Wasteland, you can only maintain Wastelock at the cost of skipping all of your draw steps. You could add either more Wastelands or a single Lonely Sandbar if you want to solve this problem.

Brainstorm and Ponder are usually sufficient. The most common type of Wastelock isn't the one where you cut off an opponent's manabase entirely (to do that, you'd need 4 Wastelands and probably Stifle), but rather you pick a colour that's underrepresented on the other side and cut your opponent off from it. With Raven's Crime, it's quite serious; with a creature on the board, it's devastating (in that case, you target the removal colour).



Kitchen Finks are underwhelming, they're just not a threat and I'd rather try Troll Ascetic, Vampire Nighthawk or River Boa just because they're "parody" in the aggro-control mirror. I settled on Tombstalker because Intuition -> Tombstalker is juicy, juicy goodness and I think in order to be successful all decks need non-symmetrical secondary threats vs Tarmogoyf i.e things like Tombstalker, Terravore, Vendilion Clique etc.

Well, the idea is that Finks can power through because they hit the board on T2, and Snuff Out, Deed, and Pulse pave the way through Tarmogoyf. Troll Ascetic and River Boa are great, but don't help the Zoo matchup by offsetting lifeloss. My concern with running Tombstalker would mainly be that Team America just does it better, filling the graveyard faster and without letting the opponent develop any resources at all. I don't disagree that a non-symmetrical threat would be ideal, but it seems to me that offsetting life loss is also important, particularly if you can generate enough removal from elsewhere.

I'm disagreeing for the sake of discussion, by the way, not to be obstinate.




IMO, if you're playing Hierarch and Finks, you should probably be /w and playing Rhox Warmonks instead or dropping Deed for NO. I think Intuition based BANT is probably better than UGB Intuition-Thresh in the field right now, mainly because 4 Rhox Warmonks hitting the board on T2 is nutty vs Zoo (and Zoo was my only loss the whole tournament)


I haven't really tried NO properly in my current configuration. I'll be doing that this morning. One question, though: how would an Intuition-Bant get 4 RWM out on T2? Not a big issue, obviously, just a point of curiosity. I suspect you exaggerated (:tongue:), but I thought I'd ask, just in case.

BreathWeapon
12-08-2009, 02:01 AM
You don't run Daze for the combo match up, you run Daze for the aggro match up where stabilizing vs 1 threat gives you time to search for and cast Pernicious Deed. Intuition/Wasteland keeps Daze relevant in the middle/end game to, so it's a non-arguable inclusion IMO.

@Goas,

If you're running Hierarch then you're casting T2 Warmonks, I have a version of Intuition Threshold that drops the Daze/Ponder for Balance/Top and just runs Hierarch and Warmonk as its board stabilizers instead of the 2ndary threat and Pernicious Deed. Warmonk is pretty awesome, considering 1 races Tarmogoyf and just shits all over Zoo.

Goaswerfraiejen
12-08-2009, 11:29 AM
@Goas,

If you're running Hierarch then you're casting T2 Warmonks, I have a version of Intuition Threshold that drops the Daze/Ponder for Balance/Top and just runs Hierarch and Warmonk as its board stabilizers instead of the 2ndary threat and Pernicious Deed. Warmonk is pretty awesome, considering 1 races Tarmogoyf and just shits all over Zoo.

OK, that makes more sense. I was confused when you said four RWM were coming down on T2. I've found that Kitchen Finks does much the same work, however. It's obviously not quite as good as RWM, especially against Zoo, but it's been good enough, and easier to cast. Built-in regeneration has also been good. The fact is that whatever you cast from a Hierarch on T2 is going to race Tarmogoyf for a bit. Although again, RWM obviously has an easier time of it.

Brushwagg
12-09-2009, 09:09 PM
Have you guys tested Volrath's Stronghold? I'm currently using in addition to Genesis.

@White splash. I'm kind of confused here. Would you drop the whole Black splash or put White in addition to? I'm not a fan of going 4 colors.

Goaswerfraiejen
12-09-2009, 10:14 PM
Have you guys tested Volrath's Stronghold? I'm currently using in addition to Genesis.

That's what I'm doing as well, and it's fantastic simply because it ups our redundancy, and gives the deck more options. Although strictly worse than Genesis because of the lack of card advantage, it often comes in quite handy.



@White splash. I'm kind of confused here. Would you drop the whole Black splash or put White in addition to? I'm not a fan of going 4 colors.

Nononono, NO white splash! I'm entirely in agreement with you: I've tested four colours, and it's much too unwieldy. ITF sort of barely managed it, but I never thought it was worth the hassle when we could just opt for Snuff Out and company. If we were to opt for white, it would have to be at black's expense, and then we'd lose most of the reasons for playing the deck in the first place (Snuff Out, Shriekmaw recursion, Volrath's Stronghold, Raven's Crime, Pernicious Deed, Maelstrom Pulse...). The RWM talk was just hypothetical, with Breathweapon saying that he'd prefer that to Finks. While I agree with the assessment that it's superior to Finks, I'm not convinced by the argument against including Finks in this deck. My list runs Finks, and I'm quite happy with both the card and the list, but there's no white splash. I cast Finks uniquely with double green. For reference, this is the list (which is the subject of my new primer):

Lands (18)

3 Tropical Island
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
1 Wasteland


Creatures (15)

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Shriekmaw or Fleshbag Marauder
1 Genesis
1 Gigapede
1 Eternal Witness


Spells (28)

4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
3 Brainstorm
3 Intuition
3 Daze
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Snuff Out
3 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Raven's Crime
1 Life from the Loam



The primer is ready to be posted, I just want to sort through how I feel about Breathweapon's successful list before I waste everyone else's time with a 41-page Word document. :smile: It's also worth sorting out the NO-Prog. question once and for all, so I've focused my recent testing on those two issues.

Kanabo
12-09-2009, 10:17 PM
so there has never been tombstalker in this deck? seems like it would be good since team america is similar to this deck.

Goaswerfraiejen
12-10-2009, 12:26 AM
so there has never been tombstalker in this deck? seems like it would be good since team america is similar to this deck.

Tombstalker's been tested in a number of the deck's incarnations. In fact, back when this was a Psychatog (Dredge-A-Tog) deck, I ran between one and two Tombstalkers in Psychatog's slots simply because they do roughly the same thing.

I've been reluctant to include it in more recent versions for lack of space (requiring a significant deck reconstruction) and interference with the recursion plan, but that doesn't mean that it's not any good. As you might have seen, Breathweapon just made T3 with it.

I think it's clear that it doesn't fit into the version of the deck that I just posted (and which is the subject of my new primer). Including Tombstalker means overhauling the deck to facilitate its abuse at the earliest possible opportunity. And that's likely a very good thing, but I'm not convinced that Team America isn't the best possible way to use Tombstalker in this sort of deck context. I'm concerned that what we come up with will just end up as a watered down and less effective version of that deck.

BreathWeapon
12-10-2009, 01:39 AM
I think my argument against Finks is that they don't win the game when they hit the board, I know that sounds ridiculous, but when I'm casting a 3cc spell the effect had better be epic (Like Intuition or Pernicious Deed epic) I'd sooner head for Terravore, which is about the only thing other than Tombstalker I've found to just ruin people with.

Brushwagg
12-11-2009, 04:20 PM
I'm currently running Brethweapon's list with a few tweaks to it. Basically -2 Misty Rainforest. +1 Wasteland, +1 Volrath's Stronhold. The one card I have missed is Witness abd probably will cut 1 Shriekmaw for it.

Goaswerfraiejen
12-11-2009, 05:32 PM
I think my argument against Finks is that they don't win the game when they hit the board, I know that sounds ridiculous, but when I'm casting a 3cc spell the effect had better be epic (Like Intuition or Pernicious Deed epic) I'd sooner head for Terravore, which is about the only thing other than Tombstalker I've found to just ruin people with.

That's entirely fair. My only rejoinder is that Finks often (i.e. usually and preferably) comes out either on your second or third turns, at which point is has a significant impact on the game-state (especially when it's swinging for four with Hierarch). At this point in the game, it's often a better threat than Tarmogoyf, although Goyf will soon outgrow it. Similarly, the life gain offsets Snuff Out damage, giving the deck more time to win. Indeed, the life gain and Finks' resilience ultimately give me much better Zoo and Burn ( =/ ) matchups than I would otherwise have.

You're absolutely right that evasion is key, however. For that reason, I feel that I should just ask you a single question (with multiple parts :tongue: ):

When you piloted the deck to its 3rd place finish, how do/did you feel it compared/would have compared had you been playing Team America instead? Did you find that you had any distinct advantages anywhere that TA would have lacked?


I've found a host for my 41-page primer in PDF form. I'll edit this post with a link in a little while, and I'll also edit the first post. That'll make things easier on everyone, and it means that I don't have to worry too much about it becoming outdated (especially by other lists, such as your own), since I can just update the link at any time rather than editing five massive posts.


NEWEST PRIMER (PDF format): http://freepdfhosting.com/779b4c8aaa.pdf

jazzykat
12-11-2009, 07:06 PM
Dude this is a tomb and I will definitely dig into it. Thanks for putting in so much effort to it.

Raindown
12-11-2009, 07:46 PM
NEWEST PRIMER (PDF format): http://freepdfhosting.com/e0c740fb50.pdf

damn that is probably one of the most complete primers I have seen.

grahf
12-12-2009, 02:44 AM
Indeed, that's quite a primer, Goas. I'd play this deck if I owned... any of the nontrivial cards.

A few off-the-cuff notes and thoughts:
In the opening decklist, the sideboard is only 12 cards. In the notes on the sideboard, you mention including Wonder and Mindbreak Trap. Are those changeable flex slots?

Another card the primer did not discuss was Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. How critical is it for manabase stability? If one wanted to fit in a cycling land or Coliseum, would that be the slot? It seems unfortunate that the deck lacks a way to turn Loam into a true draw engine (if I recall, the same criticism was leveled at ITF). Especially as the primer mentions Intuition piles with Coliseum several times (I'm looking at page 14 and 15); maybe I shouldn't take that opening decklist as infallible canon - I understand that decklists evolve and that you undoubtedly wrote this beast of a primer over time. Also I can see that opinions differ in this thread and the choice might come down to personal preference to some extent.

Wait, maybe it was too obvious to mention, but I think I see it now - Urborg makes Snuff Out a hell of a lot better. You might mention that, if that is in fact the reason for Urborg.

Goaswerfraiejen
12-12-2009, 12:41 PM
A few off-the-cuff notes and thoughts:
In the opening decklist, the sideboard is only 12 cards. In the notes on the sideboard, you mention including Wonder and Mindbreak Trap. Are those changeable flex slots?


Argh. Guess I left off Trap. Thanks for pointing that out.

The sideboard I posted in the first list is just a guideline. Other than that, it's entirely up in the air. The deck has the most trouble against combo, followed by Canadian Thresh (with bounce MD, rather than Clique) and Ichorid (although Bloodghast versions are beatable, since they're a tad slower). The sideboard was constructed for a generalised internet (MWS) metagame (since most of us either don't have the cards, or don't have a local Legacy scene) with those specific weaknesses in mind. In a developed local metagame, however, it would be quite easy to develop a less schizophrenic sideboarding strategy.

Although everything is changeable, I highly recommend keeping the Plague and graveyard slots, especially since they can complement one another nicely (I'm thinking especially of Plague on Vampire or Spirit). After than, the blasts are generally useful, since you're likely to hit Zoo, Goblins, or Aggro-Loam, and maybe even a red-based combo deck (TES with red, Charbelcher). That would leave six open slots, of which you want to devote at least three to combo/storm combo. Right now, all six are combo-oriented, but only three apply to storm combo. It would be perfectly valid to opt for discard or more counterspells instead, in an effort to hit a more generalised cross-section of decks.

Wonder... was an error on my part. It's fantastic in the deck but, as I explain below, other slots are often more important. Thanks for pointing all that out.





Another card the primer did not discuss was Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. How critical is it for manabase stability? If one wanted to fit in a cycling land or Coliseum, would that be the slot?




Wait, maybe it was too obvious to mention, but I think I see it now - Urborg makes Snuff Out a hell of a lot better. You might mention that, if that is in fact the reason for Urborg.

You're right. I'm amending the primer as we speak. Urborg was decided upon because black is the deck's second most important colour (after green), since all of its removal depends upon them. The downside, of course, is that it's vulnerable to Wasteland, which is why basics should always be fetched first. On the other hand, it makes all of the deck's removal that much easier to cast, especially when we're using Genesis recursion (since that eats up other mana, and it's not always easy to leave a black source open). It makes Volrath's Stronghold that much easier to use, and it means that we don't always need to crack a fetchland (and lose the life, or be vulnerable to Stifle). Lastly, it works extremely well in conjunction with Raven's Crime.

On the flipside, I've almost never had the chance to use it with Crime (just once or twice, mostly due to luck). The slot is not all-important: it works almost as well with a second basic Swamp, and I suspect that Coliseum could be made to fit in there once more. Whether or not Coliseum's raw power is a greater advantage than those listed for Urborg, however, I do not yet know.



It seems unfortunate that the deck lacks a way to turn Loam into a true draw engine (if I recall, the same criticism was leveled at ITF). Especially as the primer mentions Intuition piles with Coliseum several times (I'm looking at page 14 and 15); maybe I shouldn't take that opening decklist as infallible canon - I understand that decklists evolve and that you undoubtedly wrote this beast of a primer over time. Also I can see that opinions differ in this thread and the choice might come down to personal preference to some extent.

Ugh, I thought I'd extirpated all references to Coliseum and Wonder. The mistake is my own: thanks for pointing it out. I'll be fixing it and re-uploading the amended primer. The link should be the same, but I'll refresh it just to be certain.

The opening decklist is certainly not infallible canon--it's just what I've found to be most effective in the current metagame. And, as you pointed out, there are and have been some significant differences of opinion.

Nonetheless, Coliseum and Wonder are excellent cards, especially in the context of this deck. I ran Wonder in my SB (or MD) for a very, very long time, eventually just phasing it out because Edict became more important to have a fighting chance. Wonder pushes our threats through the roof, but the improvement is a small one (given that it needs to be in the graveyard), and so I decided ultimately that its slot was expendable, and better used by Edict, which helps to stave off death and destruction due to Progenitus and friends.



Right. So I'm off to edit and re-upload the primer. Thanks for pointing all that out. I'll edit this post to confirm once I'm done.

EDIT: Done. Hopefully there's nothing more for me to fix. I've updated all the links to the primer (the URL was different, sadly). If for some reason you can't find those links, here it is again: http://freepdfhosting.com/779b4c8aaa.pdf

grahf
12-12-2009, 03:29 PM
Thanks for your response and update. I'll try the list out card-for-card if/when I can get MWS up and running.

I can see that it's good enough to just use Loam for recurring fetches, wastelock, and Mind Twisting with Raven's Crime. Actually it's better than "good enough", because that's a hell of a lot of utility to get out of one card - not many cards can do that. Anything more would be unnecessary at best, getting cutesy at worst, in a deck that needs to stay tightly focused. It certainly looks like the most streamlined Intuition-Loam deck I have yet seen, so I do hope it catches on.

P.S. Just one question on play style - do you skip your draw for the turn when you need to dredge Loam, or do you try to use part of Brainstorm's or Ponder's effect to get it back?

Goaswerfraiejen
12-12-2009, 03:47 PM
I should probably note that the primer's host deletes files after 30 days, so I'll be refreshing the upload every 28 days or so. Just a warning that the link might change every month. I'll continue updating the links in the main post and the posts on this page.




P.S. Just one question on play style - do you skip your draw for the turn when you need to dredge Loam, or do you try to use part of Brainstorm's or Ponder's effect to get it back?

That's a good question, and no doubt one that might garner a different answer from a better player. I've found that, when given the option, I seldom dredge Loam on Brainstorm or Ponder (except back when this was a Dredge-a-Tog deck). This is generally because Loam and the cantrips often play the same sort of role (filtering out bad cards/searching for pieces). Consequently, I usually end up dredging on my turn's draw. Where possible, I dredge away a bad Brainstorm revelation, or follow up the dredge with a cantrip so that the next turn can be planned. The loss of the draw is generally mitigated by Genesis, or by cantripping afterwards. Alternately, if it's being used to recur Wasteland/fix your manaflow, that's well worth an uncertain draw.

The great thing about Ponder is that you can dredge away your draw if the top three cards aren't ideal. Or you can dredge the top three away if you need some in your graveyard (e.g. Wasteland and Raven's Crime). That's pretty situational though and, to be honest, I don't do it very often. And there's a bit of a down side: if you want to dredge on this turn but take your initial draw, you're going to have to dredge away what Ponder reveals. If you dredge your draw instead, then you can at least reset and set up your next turn with Ponder. That's usually the more cost-effective and risk-free way of going about it, in my opinion.

Short story: most of the time, I'm happy enough just to dredge the turn's draw. If I was running Psychatog (or possibly Tombstalker) again, however, it would be a different story.

Barnie25
12-15-2009, 03:38 AM
Hi guys, I sat down the other night and started thinking about what could be a playable deck that hasn't been represented all that much in my metagame. I started te compile a list and came to the conclusion that it had to be something with Intuition, Volrath's Stronghold, Eternal Witness and Life From the Loam in it.

When I first started building the deck I built a control shell around it, my list was something like this:

Land
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bayou
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
3 Underground Sea
3Tropical Island
1Swamp
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Island
2 Lonely Sandbar
1 Barren Moor

Sorcery
1 Life from the Loam
2 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Instant
3 Ghastly Demise
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
3 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

Artifact
1 Engineered Explosives

Enchantment
2 Pernicious Deed

Creature
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Eternal Witness
2 Sower of Temptation
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Shriekmaw

But after discovering this topic I decided that a more threshish build would be better so I changed it to:

Land 20
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bayou
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Wasteland
1 Dark Depths

Sorcery 13
1 Life from the Loam
3 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize
1 Raven's Crime
2 Living Wish
3 Maelstrom Pulse

Instant 14
3 Daze
3 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

Enchantment 2
2 Pernicious Deed

Creature 12
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Eternal Witness
1 Gigapede
1 Genesis
1 Vampire Hexmage
1 Shriekmaw
3 Kitchen Finks

What are you thought on these decklists? And what is your opinion on me adding Dark Depths, Living Wish and Vampire Hexmage?

Goaswerfraiejen
12-18-2009, 04:36 PM
What are you thought on these decklists? And what is your opinion on me adding Dark Depths, Living Wish and Vampire Hexmage?

Hi Barnie,

Sorry for the late reply: I'm in transit, and haven't had much time for detailed posts recently.

Ultimately, I think that it just comes down to how consistently your deck can do the things that you want it to do. Of the two decklists, I (obviously) prefer the second, although I do wonder about how consistently you can make use of the Dark Depths combo, especially as opposed to, say, the Natural order combo.

You've adjusted the land count to reflect the absence of Hierarch, which is a good move, but that also means that you need to reconsider the effectiveness of Kitchen Finks, since it now competes with Intuition for third-turn casting. Specifically, I wonder if you wouldn't be better served simply by running more copies of Hexmage or, perhaps, even going back to Nimble Mongoose. Similarly, I wonder about the balance of removal, which is all sorcery-speed (except Deed, I guess, but it's slow too). Indeed, the creature base looks a little odd, given what you want to do. I still see the appeal of Genesis and Witness (Hexmage recursion, although Witness looks lonely), but Gigapede seems out of place, as does Kitchen Finks. Dark Depths essentially takes over your Gigapede slot/plan, so it makes sense to me to try to maximise your chances of getting it, especially if it's disrupted. It's in that respect that Living Wish, although a good idea, looks a little out of place. In a shell like that, I suspect I'd rather have more Hexmages, since I can use Life from the Loam's dredge and Intuition to find Dark Depths already.

If you really want to make the Depths combo work in this sort of shell, I think you're on the right track. I'm not convinced, myself, that it's particularly beneficial to my deck itself (that would depend on which matchups change and how, and I can't really speak to that). Nevertheless, if that's what you want, I think that you can make it work. It will require more fine-tuning, however, because the single greatest challenge is making sure that you can always get what you want.

Barnie25
12-19-2009, 08:15 AM
Thanks for the reply! I'll take your advice under great consideration since you're the one with experience, al least with this deck. It is true that by running dark depths / vampire hexmage you'll be shifting the focus of the deck but I dont really mind that. Your list and my list both are adequate lists but have slightly different focusses so comparing them will be a bit hard. In my opinion one is not much better than the other.

You suggested to cut the Finkes and the Gigapede for more copies of Hexmage. That might me a good idea since I can recur them anyways.

You also suggested that my removal was a bit out of focus. That was a problem that I was facing as well but if I cut the Finkes then Snuff out is out of the picture as well, I still really like Ghasty Demise but I don't know if it is good enough.

I'm considering the following:

-3 Kitchen Finks
-1 Gigapede

+2 Hexmage
+1 Living Wish
+1 Thoughtseize/ Eternal Witness / Daze

Adding 2 copies of Hexmage seems a logic choice as it leaves me with 1 to put in the sideboard.

The extra living wish is so I'll be sure to find my wish on time, to improve consistence for the combo, or to search for utility land,

And then it leaves me with 3 options:

One is adding a 4th copy of Thoughtseize, this would allow me to consistenly disrupt my opponent on turn 1, which always is good since this deck wants to ***** your opponent.

The second is adding another Witness, this might seem odd, but it improves the consistensy of the deck by allowing me to play cards multiple times on a more regular basis. This would mean that I won't always have to Intuition for my Witness.

The third option is adding a 4th Daze, with this I can play a bit more controll and be able daze more constistenly turn 1 which is also nice.

My preference is leaning towards a 4th Thoughtseize, since it wont slow me down all that much ( read: I won't miss a land drop by bouncing a island to cast a Daze), the Witness might me a good plan but I feel like it will slow me down in the long run.

What are you're thoughts?

Muradin
12-19-2009, 05:47 PM
Hey Goaswerfraiejen, I really like your list and would like to try it, however it has 61 cards and I am not comfortable with that. What would you cut if you want to have only 60 cards? Besides the primer rocks and is a very interesting read, you really put a lot of work into this.

Aleksandr
12-20-2009, 02:34 AM
damn that is probably one of the most complete primers I have seen.

Seconded.

May I translate it for a czech mtg site?

BreathWeapon
12-20-2009, 06:56 AM
@Gos

IMO, the advantage of UGB Intuition-Thresh over Team America is that UGB Intuition-Thresh has Pernicious Deed vs Aggro and Intuition to find exactly what you need when you need it. I've also seriously appreciated Intuition -> Life from the Loam, Academy Ruins and Zuran Orb vs Burn and Zoo, as well as Intuition -> Gigapede for upping your threats.

About the only thing I'm not positive about is Thought Seize vs Spell Snare, in a Zoo metagame Thought Seize really, really hurts.

Brushwagg
12-20-2009, 11:58 AM
I'm playing 4x Spell Snare in my SB. I haven't played Zoo yet but I can see it being a problem.

Right now my SB looks like this.

4x Spell Snare
3x Krosan Grip
2x Pithing Needle
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Sower of Temptation
2x Rushing River

I went this way because there is 2-3 Reanimator decks running around and Iona on Black = bad times for me. So I make it so they have to name 2 colors instead of just 1.

Goaswerfraiejen
12-21-2009, 12:18 PM
You also suggested that my removal was a bit out of focus. That was a problem that I was facing as well but if I cut the Finkes then Snuff out is out of the picture as well, I still really like Ghasty Demise but I don't know if it is good enough.


Yeah, Demise is too conditional. Have you tried Smother, Diabolic Edict, or even more Shriekmaws?




My preference is leaning towards a 4th Thoughtseize, since it wont slow me down all that much ( read: I won't miss a land drop by bouncing a island to cast a Daze), the Witness might me a good plan but I feel like it will slow me down in the long run.

What are you're thoughts?

Sure, sounds good. If life loss is a bit of a concern, then you could also replace that fourth Thoughtseize with a Cabal Therapy, or another Raven's Crime (both of which are often more useful in the late game than Thoughtseize anyway).

Let us know how your testing pans out.






Hey Goaswerfraiejen, I really like your list and would like to try it, however it has 61 cards and I am not comfortable with that. What would you cut if you want to have only 60 cards? Besides the primer rocks and is a very interesting read, you really put a lot of work into this.


Muradin,

The balance of the deck is very fine as it is. The trick is to ensure that we have enough copies of what we need, that these copies can be fetched out by an Intuition for 3x if need be, and that the deck maintain a standard of redundancy. With Intuition, Brainstorm, and Ponder, you won't be noticing the miniscule percentage difference that the extra card makes. There is, in fact, quite a long ongoing discussion on the subject here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15820).

I have variously cut a copy of Witness, Deed, and Maelstrom Pulse, but the deck was worse off for each of those cuts. As for the other slots... well, you don't really want to be messing with those either. You could get away with only having Gigapede in the SB but, again, the quality of the deck suffers from that cut. You could replace the three Pulses with two Diabolic Edicts, in which case I'd advise you to run Fleshbag Marauder rather than Shriekmaw. That would preserve one of Pulse's function (hitting black creatures). Unfortunately, the deck would suffer a little from the lack of versatility (you can't hit Planeswalkers, artifacts, or enchantments any more), and you'd probably have to SB Krosan Grip.

I invite you to try the deck with 61 cards, then make a cut somewhere and compare its performance. If you can live with the cut, so much the better. For a generalized metagame, however, I think that 61 truly is optimal for this deck. The balance is just right.



Seconded.

May I translate it for a czech mtg site?

Of course. I've sent you a PM.




I'm playing 4x Spell Snare in my SB. I haven't played Zoo yet but I can see it being a problem.

Right now my SB looks like this.

4x Spell Snare
3x Krosan Grip
2x Pithing Needle
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Sower of Temptation
2x Rushing River

I went this way because there is 2-3 Reanimator decks running around and Iona on Black = bad times for me. So I make it so they have to name 2 colors instead of just 1.


Sounds good. I've wondered about the likes of Rushing River myself, actually, given how effective bounce is against us. Out of curiosity, however: what do you want Pithing Needle for, in your metagame? Also, is Spell Snare that much more useful for you than BEB? That's definitely a better choice against Reanimator, but against the likes of Zoo, it strikes me that BEB is much more effective.

Brushwagg
12-21-2009, 08:22 PM
Sounds good. I've wondered about the likes of Rushing River myself, actually, given how effective bounce is against us. Out of curiosity, however: what do you want Pithing Needle for, in your metagame? Also, is Spell Snare that much more useful for you than BEB? That's definitely a better choice against Reanimator, but against the likes of Zoo, it strikes me that BEB is much more effective.

The meta here is really random. Sometimes Pithing Needle is kind of meh and other days it really good. AS for Spell Snare yes it is better then BEB. There can be 2-3 CounterTop decks, 2-3 Reanimator and random other Non-Red decks there. So Spell Snare is the better card.

As I said befpre the Rushing Rivers and Sower are there to help deal with the Reanimator decks.

For a bigger tournament the SB would have a few different cards in it.

BreathWeapon
12-21-2009, 10:17 PM
I'm sold on Spell Snare, it's the difference between winning and losing vs Zoo; I really didn't need Thought Seize to resolve my threats, so I don't see much of a reason to run it.

leander?
01-18-2010, 08:04 PM
Goas, first of all: props for the amazing primer. Very good work, thanks for that!
I'm quite interested in playing the deck since it basically is the first time an Intuition deck really draws my attention, thanks to the strong aggro-plan, and I was just wondering if you think this would be a solid choice in my metagame and if so, are there any significant SB changes you would make.

The metagame in The Netherlands and Belgium mainly consists of:

ANT
Merfolk
The Rock
Goblins
Eva Green
Countertop
Domain Zoo

(Roughly in that order)

Thanks a lot in advance!

Goaswerfraiejen
01-20-2010, 10:43 AM
Goas, first of all: props for the amazing primer. Very good work, thanks for that! I'm quite interested in playing the deck since it basically is the first time an Intuition deck really draws my attention, thanks to the strong aggro-plan, and I was just wondering if you think this would be a solid choice in my metagame and if so, are there any significant SB changes you would make.

The metagame in The Netherlands and Belgium mainly consists of:

ANT
Merfolk
The Rock
Goblins
Eva Green
Countertop
Domain Zoo

(Roughly in that order)

Thanks a lot in advance!

Leander,

I'm overjoyed that you're thinking of giving the deck a spin. Given your metagame, I do think that this deck would be a strong choice. The biggest challenge in that list is ANT, but that's going to be the case for just about any deck: either you have the answers within your first two turns, or you don't. You have a good chance of beating just about everything there, but that doesn't mean that they'll be auto-wins, of course. I definitely recommend spending a great deal of time familiarizing yourself with the deck's performance in those matchups--but then, that goes without saying.

As far as the sideboard goes, I think that you'll definitely want Hydroblast/REB and Engineered Plague. Both act to increase the density of your removal, and they'll be useful for at least 2 (possibly 3)/7 matchups above. Diabolic Edict can still be a useful sideboard choice if there are a number of BG decks running around, since it can replace Snuff Out or just be brought in to increase your removal density. Similarly, you’ll probably want some extra counterspells/something (Chalice is always a possibility) to help against ANT. Aat any rate, I think that Hydroblast/BEB and Plague are musts. Beyond that, I’d look for versatility. But really, as always, it’s up to your discretion.

Good luck!


EDIT: Also, this UGB Intuition-Loam deck (by Szymon Mueller) (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=30925) recently took 6/31 in Poznan, Poland. The deck looks similar enough to the present incarnation that I'm touting to include in the list of successes--what do you think?

leander?
01-25-2010, 06:08 PM
Thanks for your help Goas. I will just take my time to play the deck and see where it'll get.


EDIT: Also, this UGB Intuition-Loam deck (by Szymon Mueller) (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=30925) recently took 6/31 in Poznan, Poland. The deck looks similar enough to the present incarnation that I'm touting to include in the list of successes--what do you think?
It doesn't really look as much aggro as your deck does, does it?

Goaswerfraiejen
01-27-2010, 11:12 PM
It doesn't really look as much aggro as your deck does, does it?



Quite true. Still, I'm desperate for results from similar decks. :tongue:

It looks like there may be a Legacy tournament nearby (!!!) on February 28th. I will be taking this deck, although I might not have Misty Rainforests and a third Maelstrom Pulse by then--since I'm unemployed, I can't just buy them, gotta trade. Nonetheless, I expect to do relatively well, since it's an undeveloped metagame. No doubt there'll be plenty of Goblins and Merfolk, and probably a combo deck. I also don't have the Mindbreak Traps, so no doubt that slot will be occupied by Chalice of the Void or some such.

Also, I've re-uploaded the primer for the next 30 days, and made a small change in the matchups section: I'd forgotten that graveyard hate can be effective against ANT, so I've added a few lines to that effect. I've also added a line to indicate that Chalice of the Void is doubtless the best Mindbreak Trap replacement--perhaps even a better choice overall, although I've not yet substantiated that claim with adequate testing. The link remains unchanged.

Goaswerfraiejen
02-26-2010, 02:12 PM
Still attending the tournament on Sunday. Unfortunately, it looks like my list will be missing

2x Misty Rainforest (the trade got delayed at the border, I guess. Dagnabbit.)
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Bayou
1x Maelstrom Pulse


Anybody have any suggestion for replacements? I was thinking of just subbing Flooded Strand for the Rainforests, since otherwise I can't nab the basic Island--otherwise, it would be possible to cut out the basic Island altogether, and just up the Forest/Swamp count, going with a fourth catacombs and another fetch. For Urborg, I think I'll just sub in a regular Swamp. For Bayou, I at least have an Overgrown Tomb, although I'm not sure if the potential life loss is desirable.

Finally, for Maelstrom Pulse, there are a few options that I can think of:

-Crime/Punishment (which I like--plus, there's the possibility of using Crime)
-Fleshbag Marauder (which I like, since it could help free up a SB slot)
-Engineered Explosives
-Nev's Disk
-Diabolic Edict
-Krosan Grip


I'm leaning more towards Crime/Punishment myself, simply because it hits most of the same targets that I wanted to be able to hit with Pulse, at a cost roughly comparable to EE's, although with a wider range. Thoughts?


I'll be updating both the thread and the primer when I return on Sunday.

Goaswerfraiejen
02-28-2010, 12:26 PM
Unfortunately, something's come up: won't be able to attend. Oh well, I suspect attendance will be down anyway, since it's at the same time as the gold medal hockey showdown.

Goaswerfraiejen
03-04-2010, 03:26 PM
The primer has been updated to reflect the SB inclusion of Chalice (also fixed all instances of the card it replaced). Lastly, added Szymon Mueller's deck to the list of appearances, since it's close enough despite a few choices that I disagree with.

Goaswerfraiejen
06-18-2010, 11:48 AM
Well, the deck has been struggling in the metagame of late (thanks to nuJace and too much fast combo), but with Mystical Tutor's banning and the upsurge of Zoo, I think that we're well placed to take the metagame by storm (well, by beatdown). Deed will become much more important, and Chalice is still worth boarding in against Zoo for a total shutdown.

In other news, I'm moving to Montréal come September 1. Finally, a city with (regular!) Legacy events! I'll be piloting this deck as much as possible, of course (minus a Bayou and a Pulse, unfortunately).

Omega
06-18-2010, 01:13 PM
Nice to know, come over to Valet de Coeur, métro Mont-Royal sometimes. They hold weekly tournament. Its a mix of good and new players. Basically, its just to have fun. IF you really like the format, then you can participate in the bigger tournaments, which occur at a monthly pace in Montreal :) Welcome!

Boogie
06-19-2010, 08:02 PM
Have you tested accumulated knowledge at all in this deck? I think that it has the potential to be a house. maybe ponder could go? or something?

On another note, I am a big fan of the 2-of eternal witness. I was wondering if anyone else thought it might be a good idea to find room for 1 of unearth. Intuition for witness witness unearth creates a pretty good wall of chump blockers that keep coming back. it cycles, and animates pretty much everything but gigapede.

Goaswerfraiejen
06-19-2010, 09:53 PM
@Omega: Cétait le plan! Merci pour les informations!



Have you tested accumulated knowledge at all in this deck? I think that it has the potential to be a house. maybe ponder could go? or something?

On another note, I am a big fan of the 2-of eternal witness. I was wondering if anyone else thought it might be a good idea to find room for 1 of unearth. Intuition for witness witness unearth creates a pretty good wall of chump blockers that keep coming back. it cycles, and animates pretty much everything but gigapede.

Good questions. Normally, I'd take the time to test arounda bit before replying, but I'll be away for the next week, so I want to be sure to get back to you before then.

Accumulated Knowledge: The last time I tested it in this deck, IIRC, was back when it was Dredge-a-Tog. I can definitely say that AK looks like it would be good but, by the same token, I don't think I'm willing to sacrifice Ponder for it. Ponder's shuffling makes it an invaluable tool (and an incidental early mana fixer of sorts). I can say that I'll try it, but I am a tad skeptical, and would be more comfortable losing one Brainstorm than too many Ponder.

Wtiness/Unearth: I really like this idea. Witness is a fantastic card and, as I always take pains to explain, I almost never use it with Genesis or Stronghold; it's usually just another body that nets an extra copy of some spell. I'm certainly favouirable to two, and Unearth complements almost the entire creature suite, as you said. The other option, to my mind, would be a single Reanimate. I like it a lot, and it's much easier to find room for two cards than four. Unfortunately, I'm not sure yet where that room will come from. :p I'll give it some though over the next week and get back to you, hopefully with a little testing.


Finally, I think I'll get around to changing the deck's name again, since it doesn't look like Threshold at all any more, and it barely even looks like ITF either. If anything, it looks a lot more like The Rock. Perhaps I'll ask Solpugid if I can steal his "River Rock" deck name.

Boogie
06-20-2010, 02:24 PM
the reason I'd pick unearth over reanimate is because in the games where you want to keep casting it to recur witness as chump blockers, you are looking to keep your life total up. reanimate would cause a lot of life loss. 2 reanimates in 1 turn costs 6 life. might as well just let the goyf through!

Hanni
06-28-2010, 04:00 AM
I stopped working on this archetype for a long time because of other interests, but I recently decided to try to and re-design my old UGb Intuition Thresh decklist since it was very outdated.

To be honest, I'm not even sure the point of the black splash anymore. Raven's Crime is way too slow against anything but control decks, where the Loam engine itself is enough to dominate. Instead of 'retracing' to destroy their hand, we could be 'retracing' to swarm them with 1/1 tokens every turn.

Pernicious Deed is grand, but Engineered Explosives is almost as good, recurs with Academy Ruins, and doesn't require a black splash. Even without the Ruins/EE lock, EE can be better than Deed sometimes, like against Ichorid, for example.

I think the white splash makes alot more sense. I know it's cliche, but Knight of the Reliquary is amazing. Plus, we get Swords to Plowshares, which is much better than Snuff Out.

I know that you had tried Birds of Paradise, as well as Veteran Explorer, before. Mana acceleration is very valuable in this deck, because although it can play a low cc game with its "Threshold-like" shell, the Intuition/Loam engine is expensive. Being in Bant colors, Noble Hierarch provides full benefit.

Exalted is just so good in this deck because of its low threat density and big fat creatures.

EDIT: Actually, it seems that you are already running Noble Hierarch in your list.

The Genesis recursion engine is just way too slow. Board sweeps + Genesis was an awesome idea, and it does generate massive card advantage, I just don't think it's effecient enough anymore. The Loam engine itself is already expensive and already generates card advantage. There is no reason to run more worthless-without-Intuition cards IMO.

Genesis is too slow + overkill, basically.

Gigapede is great, but Worm Harvest is stronger against aggro. A 6/1 untargetable is laughable to swarm aggro like Goblins, Zoo, and Merfolk. Worm Harvest is tutorable with Intuition all the same, costs the same 5 mana, and requires that a card get discarded all the same. Minor difference being that you must discard a land, but it can be discarded during your mainphase instead of upkeep.

Creating a swarm of 1/1 tokens is a great trump to groundbased attacks. Also, you can cast Worm Harvest every turn for more and more tokens, whereas you will only ever have 1 Gigapede in play at a time. Considering that both Worm Harvest and Gigapede will almost always be cast after the Loam engine is already online, I'm usually casting Worm Harvest for 6 or more 1/1 tokens anyway. Casting Worm Harvest for 6+ 1/1 tokens every turn gets digusting very quickly, and it should be obvious at that point how much stronger Worm Harvest is than Gigapede.

Gigapede has better synergy with Deed, since Deed would have to blow for 5 to snag Gigapede, and popping it for any amount destroys all of the 1/1 tokens. However, EE at any amount other than 0 won't hit the 1/1 tokens, so with EE instead of Deed, it's a non-issue anyway.

The only time I see Gigapede being stronger than Worm Harvest is against recurring EE vs opposing control decks. I just don't think the little (bug)ger is worth it anymore. Of course, Gigapede does double over as a discard outlet for stuff like Genesis and Wonder, but I don't think those cards are needed in this archetype anymore.

Since this list doesn't really belong in New Horizons, and since it doesn't really belong in Aggro Loam, and since I didn't want to create a new thread for it, I figured I'd post it here. In all honesty, it's much closer in design to this deck than the other two that I just mentioned.

U/G/w Bant Loam

Lands (22)
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Academy Ruins
2 Lonely Sandbar
4 Wasteland

Creatures (12)
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary

Spells (26)
1 Worm Harvest
1 Life from the Loam
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Intuition
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Engineered Explosives

With Noble Hierarch, the setback from Daze isn't nearly as bad. With Noble Hierarch, I can Wasteland more aggressively. With a playset of Wastelands, the Dazes become stronger. The full playset of Wastelands make Knight of the Reliquary much stronger, and vice versa. It's a very strong combination of cards.

I dropped down to 3 Intuition. I'm not sure if this is the right call or not, but it's been working beautifully in testing. I'd prefer to have 20 blue spells for Force of Will, but the list is just so tight, and 19 seems like it should be alright. I haven't noticed significant problems in testing with only 19 blue spells.

Intuition grabs Loam obviously, and then it can either grab Sandbar/Sandbar or Ruins/EE, and both Wasteland and Worm Harvest are also good targets. It all depends on what you need, and what you already have (in hand, graveyard, and play). Knight of the Reliquary can also grab Ruins/Wasteland, so using him to get those "engines" in place can allow Intuition to grab the other pieces, like a Loam/Sandbar/EE pile.

22 lands + 4 Hierarch + 8 cantrips + 3/1 Intuition/Loam has been awesome for making consistent land drops and I have not been experiencing significant color screw either. It feels very smooth, and I've been very comfortable with my manabase.

The deck still has its lategame recursive removal with Ruins/EE, and its recursive win condition with Worm Harvest.

I only run 2 Sandbar's since Intuition tutors for them. Usually, I'll Loam to get 3 lands, put 1 of the lands into play, and draw 2 cards with the 2 Sandbar's. That way I'm making my land drop and drawing 2 fresh cards every turn. I originally ran 3 Sandbar's, but I found that 2 was sufficient. 2 Sandbar's are compact enough to not hurt the manabase, and running only two doesn't waste as much deckspace.

All of the other chaff that I used to run, like Shriekmaw, Cephalid Coliseum, Wonder, Genesis, Stinkweed Imp, etc... that stuff just isn't needed anymore, IMO.

The sideboard can include a small land and artfiact toolbox, since Knight of the Reliquary can tutor for lands, and Intuition can set up Loam/Ruins/artifact or Loam/land/land, etc. Good options include Bojuka Bog and Relic of Progenitus, The Tabernacale at Pendrell Vale and Maze of Ith, Pithing Needle, among others.

I'm sure some number of Krosan Grip is a good idea. More EE's seem good too, especially with the amount of consistency the deck has at assembling the Ruins/EE lock, because of Intuition/Loam AND Knight of the Reliquary. In all honesty, there's alot of good sideboard cards available in the colors I'm in, and I'm not sure at this point what all I would need (which is why I don't have a sideboard listed).

I know that you are heavily biased to the black splash, but the white splash just seems so much better with the current card pool. What do you think, Goas?

EDIT: If you think my deck is just too different of an approach to be in here, I suppose I can make a new thread for it when I get time. I read your primer, and it does seem like my list differs quite a bit, primarily because you emphasize on removal density. Ruins/EE can make up for the lower removal count in my build, but still. My deck is more like Aggro Loam, while your deck is more like The Rock. That's a pretty significant difference.

---

[To me, it seems like there are several viable approaches to any Bant deck. The original and most common is CounterTop, but there is also NO/Prog, Supreme Blue/Planeswalker, and Tempo/New Horizons. Intuition/Loam seems like just as valid an approach as the others.]

MrShine
06-28-2010, 12:47 PM
Hey Guys

Hanni, I've been working on a similar build to yours, U/G/w Intuition Control; Having thought about it alot I think the fact that white gives us STP and KotR makes it far more inviting than black, especially, as you mentioned, that EE recursion pretty much negates the Need for Deed (hehe) anyway.

Where my list differs so far is in the creature count (I'm not play NH atm, just Goyf and Knight), Spell distribution (playing more countermagic over ponder, playing Shackles main; I actually agree with going down to 3 Intuition - 4 would be nice but there isnt much room) - I'm also trying out some planeswalkers (Jace 2.0 is great, helps the control matchup which is pretty bad; Elspeth wrecks aggro but we do that anyway so I think its going to get the cut) - and some land choices (not playing cycling lands, instead playing Maze of Ith main, which is the NUTS vs aggro, especially with Knight; playing a higher count of duals).

What I've been wanting though is a recurrable win condition that can get turned on by Intuition; both Gigapede and Worm Harvest are interesting ideas that I will need to test, but they look promising. Where I think Gigapede would shine is against slower landstill builds or against Lands where their targeted removal (STP or Maze, respectively) is blanked, giving us a bit better of a clock when creatures aren't coming naturally off the top. I suppose WH works against lands too (they can't maze everything), and is still good against Swords, but is soft to EE recursion so I guess I will have to see what I like better. Just a note though, is that while WH is good against aggro, we pretty much crush them already so I think the utility in that sense is marginal, although not completely irrelevant (unless we are playing against something like goblins, which could be a problem).

I'll get a list posted soon

Cheers,
MrShine

Also - I think Needle is definitely good in the board, especially when we can tutor it via Intuition; solves a lot of problems (Planeswalkers are Not Fun for us; Manlands, other corner stuff like Grindstone). I was also recommened by a friend to try out a single copy of a manland, probably Treetop Village. What do you think about that?

Hanni
06-28-2010, 01:44 PM
Where I think Gigapede would shine is against slower landstill builds or against Lands where their targeted removal

I had forgotten about Tabernacle effects. So yes, Gigapede is better against Lands.

Against Landstill, Worm Harvest is still stronger, unless they have Ruins/EE. Luckily, I have a large number of ways to access Wasteland to shut that lock down.


I'm also trying out some planeswalkers (Jace 2.0 is great, helps the control matchup which is pretty bad

My deck crushes control decks, so I'm not sure what your configuration is that makes control a bad matchup. They run alot of removal for my Goyf and Knight, sure, but they are extremely vulnerable to my Wasteland attack. Daze is also much stronger against a deck trying to resolve 4cc spells than against decks trying to resolve nothing but 1cc and 2cc spells.

Once the Loam engine gets online, it's usually gg. If control deck runs CounterTop, they can stop it unless I have Ruins/EE going to blow up their Counterbalance(s). Luckily, not many control decks are running CounterTop right now.

Unless the control deck has maindeck graveyard hate or access to it with something like Cunning Wish, Loam just puts me so far ahead once I'm able to start casting it every turn.

Loam does alot of things. The ability to Wastelock in and of itself can end the game.

Regardless of Wastelock, Loam still generates +2 CA per turn. A few turns of that, and my opponent starts to get too far behind. Control decks rely on maintaining card advantage in order to have more answers than their opponent's have threats, so when I start gaining more card advantage than them, they typically cannot keep up.

If I start cranking out swarms of 1/1 tokens every turn, the game is pretty much over for the control deck unless they can find an answer right away.

As far as Planeswalker's go, I don't think they are necessary in this deck. Don't get me wrong, I love Planeswalker's. I have designed alot of decks that use them, and I've played with them alot (primarily Elspeth and Jace TMS). In this deck, I think that Intuition/Loam replaces the role that the Planeswalker's would fill. Maybe as a sideboard card vs control decks, Jace TMS would be strong. In the maindeck, I think you'd just be diluting your primary strategy.


Just a note though, is that while WH is good against aggro, we pretty much crush them already so I think the utility in that sense is marginal, although not completely irrelevant (unless we are playing against something like goblins, which could be a problem).

While I've been doing very well against aggro, I wouldn't say that I necessarily crush them either. I'm not running a massive amount of creature removal, and Ruins/EE can be somewhat slow to get going. Again, I think the reason why your matchup against control is bad and against aggro is so good is because of the differences in our lists.

It's possible, against aggro, to hold off an early attack with Swords and big blockers. However, big blockers can be vulnerable to removal, and 4 Swords is not enough to answer aggro decks that run a large mass of creatures. I've had alot of games where I Intuition into Loam/Worm Harvest/x and get Worm Harvest going just in time to save my ass. After Worm Harvest gets going, I usually win the game several turns later, especially in the games where I'm cranking out like 8 1/1 tokens a turn. It's just nice to have Worm Harvest their as my oh-shit and then I-win button.

(Honestly, sometimes it feels like I'm cheating when I cast Worm Harvest; it feels like I'm combo'ing into an Empty The Warrens every turn.)


Also - I think Needle is definitely good in the board, especially when we can tutor it via Intuition; solves a lot of problems (Planeswalkers are Not Fun for us; Manlands, other corner stuff like Grindstone). I was also recommened by a friend to try out a single copy of a manland, probably Treetop Village. What do you think about that?

Needle sounds good. It's a very good catchall, it's tutorable, and it's recurrable if it gets destroyed.

(Planeswalker's are handled by attacking with creatures. Manlands eat Swords to Plowshares. So while those could be problematic, they are still answerable without Needle.)

I don't think a single copy of a manland is necessary. Worm Harvest fulfills that function/role. If I were going to run a manland, it would be Nantuko Monastery, but I do not think it's necessary.

MrShine
06-28-2010, 02:29 PM
To tell you the truth I haven't personally tested the control matchup all that often, but my friend has been doing some testing as says it isnt that good. Our discrepancy is probably due to lists, as you said; I run 3 EE maindeck, which kills zoo, and as of yet I dont have much experience vs merfolk but I can imagine it would be handy to have more EE.

As far as counter magic goes, I'm not playing either daze or ponder, so I guess the lists are actually quite different in the sense that they are doing different things in the opening turns; instead, I play 3 Spell snare and 3 Mana Leak (O_o shocking, I know, but it serves a useful role in the early game buying us time until we can get the Intuition/Loam engine going)... I think the second difference here is that playing more counter magic puts us into a control role that is less able to hybridize strategically vs control (as in I dont have as much of an ability to go aggro early game). I think where I might also have been coming up short is in my underplaying of Loam; I have only been using it when I need it, preferring to draw off the top to find some threats rather than milling them into the graveyard. Not the best playing, but this is where WH/Gigapede come in to maximize the available CA from Loam as well as synergy with the wincon of choice (outside of Knight and Goyf)

While I should probably just try it out myself, I'm not convinced of Daze's place in this kind of list; as I see it, Daze is best used to protect early threats (in whatever form they are in) in situations where where losing tempo is minor compared to resolving said threat. That said, I prefer to swap in some less conditional countermagic because I dont really see people tapping out to deal with our threats that dont even come out until T3. Although, how often do you use it to back up EOT3 Intuition?

Hanni
06-28-2010, 03:02 PM
Mr. Shine, your deck sounds significantly different.

From what I've read so far, you don't have Ponder, Noble Hierarch, or Daze. Your early game is replaced with Spell Snare and Mana Leak instead.

You run a much larger density of removal, with 3 EE's and some amount of Vedalken Shackles.

You aren't running Worm Harvest, and I'm assuming you aren't running any other recurring/tutorable win conditions either (aside from possible Ruins/Shackles shenanigans).

These sort of differences are why our matchups differ.


I think where I might also have been coming up short is in my underplaying of Loam

Against control decks, yes. Loam/Sandbar/Sandbar is the same amount of draw power as Standstill, except your casting it every turn. Casting Worm Harvest every turn is also a savage beating.


Not the best playing, but this is where WH/Gigapede come in to maximize the available CA from Loam as well as synergy with the wincon of choice (outside of Knight and Goyf)


Lonely Sandbar also maximixes the available CA from Loam. Once you have the mana available to do so, why would you draw 1 card from the top every turn when you can draw 2 from the top AND make a land drop every turn? Loam/Sandbar/Sandbar is a very solid initial Intuition pile for this very reason. No need to re-invent the wheel when you can just take a page out of Aggro Loam's handbook. Benefit here is that instead of running 6-8 cycle lands, I only need to run 2 for the same/similar effect.

But yes, WH/Gigapede also helps maximize the CA from Loam.


While I should probably just try it out myself, I'm not convinced of Daze's place in this kind of list; as I see it, Daze is best used to protect early threats (in whatever form they are in) in situations where where losing tempo is minor compared to resolving said threat. That said, I prefer to swap in some less conditional countermagic because I dont really see people tapping out to deal with our threats that dont even come out until T3. Although, how often do you use it to back up EOT3 Intuition?


Daze is so strong in my deck. I run Noble Hierarch to help offset any sort of tempo loss from returning a land to hand. Daze helps make sure that an early Tarmogoyf, Knight of the Reliquary, and especially Intuition, can resolve. Wasteland makes Daze a relevant counter past the early game and into the midgame.

The only time that being set back a land drop really matters is when I'm attempting to set up the Intuition/Loam engine. Outside of the Intution/Loam engine, this deck (my list, anyway) is an aggro/control deck, not a control deck. Daze is very good at countering spells when I want to curve out early to cast cantrips/creatures/etc.

I don't think Daze is going to work out in your list. You are playing a much slower control version, and you want to keep making land drops to effectively use EE and Shackles. You are also staying untapped on your early turns to cast Spell Snare and Mana Leak, where I'm curving out to cast cantrips/creatures/etc.

Also, Noble Hierarch enables turn 2 Knight of the Reliquary and turn 2 Intuition, which your list lacks. Having Daze to protect either of those plays is extremely important in alot of situations.

I think you should try to playtest with my deck as is, without making any changes. That way, you can make comparisons to your list and my list and then come to your own conclusions, rather than trying to plug things like Daze into your list and having them fail miserably.

tl;dr Without the playsets of Noble Hierarch and Wasteland, Daze is much weaker. I wouldn't recommend trying it without those.

MrShine
06-28-2010, 03:17 PM
Yeah, I'm definitely going to test your list. I sense an interesting hybrid between the two, and there is definitely room to tailor the deck to the metagame as it changes. Being someone who loves to beat aggro, I'd definitely start somewhere in the area of fitting in some more explosives and a Maze of Ith. I like the look of Noble Hierarch, though.

Anyway, I'll get back to you in a bit, I'm going to be out of town for the week so no magic for now :P

Hanni
06-28-2010, 03:41 PM
Being someone who loves to beat aggro, I'd definitely start somewhere in the area of fitting in some more explosives and a Maze of Ith.

I never said I don't beat aggro. I said I don't crush aggro.

I also think that 1 Maze of Ith and 2-3 (additional) EE's would be a good idea in my sideboard.

Goaswerfraiejen
07-02-2010, 08:42 PM
Well, I'm back from my extended holiday. Looks like a lot of testing awaits me.

Let me begin by saying that I am not convinced that getting rid of black is necessarily a better way forward. I will continue tinkering with the UGB formation, although I will also give Hanni's UGW version a spin. For now, I'm comfortable entertaining both configurations within the purview of this thread. Having been able to do some minimal testing since my return, I have a few comments to make--but they all bear on the UGB version of the deck.

The first thing that I have to say is that I think Hanni is right about Raven's Crime no longer being worth its weight--it used to be a formidable weapon against control-oriented decks, but it simply no longer really does the trick against today's control decks. Accordingly, I am using its slot to test Unearth, as was suggested earlier.

With Unearth, however, a few other changes become necessary. The first task is to up the Witness count; to that end, I am cutting Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. Its primary synergy was with Raven's Crime, meaning that it's now much less useful. That gives us +1 Witness. I don't feel that two Witnesses suffice to guarantee their (and Unearth's) full exploitation, however, and so I decided to cut Genesis (tear) in favour of a third Witness. While Genesis is still a better source of recursion than Stronghold, it's a little weaker without Nimble Mongoose any more, and it would be excessive and too hard to set up given the new sources of recursion (Witness and Unearth). I have opted to keep Stronghold at the moment, since it adds redundancy to the recursion plan.

With those changes in place, I have decided to replace Shriekmaw with Fleshbag Marauder, which benefits from Unearth and helps give a small chance of victory against creatures with Shroud. I have temporarily relegated Shriekmaw to the sideboard, where I have also eliminated the last two Blasts, leaving one free slot that I'm not yet sure how to fill. I suppose the sideboard will change depending on the metagame's shift anyway.

In the limited testing that I did just now, the changes have proven very beneficial, and the deck has seemed more streamlined. Unearth is particularly strong, and is well complemented by Intuition. I don't know whether more than one is desirable, since it would open up the deck to a wider range of hate and increase its dependency on creatures dying, but the one copy is working fantastically well at present. I just finished a series of six games against RW Vial-Goblins, losing 2-1 the first time around and winning 2-1 the second. Unearth and Eternal Witness were central to all three wins. I hesitate to say much more, since more testing is required, but I am very pleased with the deck's newfound engine. Now, to figure out how to beat Jace 2.0 control consistently.

Thanks for your comments and input, and keep it coming. Hanni & co.: don't forget to update with your UGW testing results! I'll be testing it myself soon-ish, and will feel competent to comment then.

Goaswerfraiejen
07-06-2010, 08:40 PM
Well, after some more testing, I think that the Witness/Unearth plan is a keeper for the UGB version of the deck. By far my favourite move has been to cast Intuition for Witness/Witness/Unearth, and then proceed reanimate both Witnesses at once and either get Unearth or something else back again. More than once, I've used that trick for more or less infinite (well, infinitely recurring) chump-blockers. It also allows Witness to take on a much more aggressive role within the deck, giving you a larger army faster than any non-aggro deck (giving you a *slightly* better chance versus Jace 2.0). Alternately, it allows for better next-turn-delivery Intuition piles with Witness/Unearth/Card X.

My next step is to test enough to amend the primer, and then to test out the UGW version that's been proposed.

Goaswerfraiejen
07-06-2010, 08:40 PM
Well, after some more testing, I think that the Witness/Unearth plan is a keeper for the UGB version of the deck. By far my favourite move has been to cast Intuition for Witness/Witness/Unearth, and then proceed reanimate both Witnesses at once and either get Unearth or something else back again. More than once, I've used that trick for more or less infinite (well, infinitely recurring) chump-blockers. It also allows Witness to take on a much more aggressive role within the deck, giving you a larger army faster than any non-aggro deck (giving you a *slightly* better chance versus Jace 2.0). Alternately, it allows for better next-turn-delivery Intuition piles with Witness/Unearth/Card X.

My next step is to test enough to amend the primer, and then to test out the UGW version that's been proposed.

Goaswerfraiejen
08-06-2010, 12:50 PM
Well, I haven't done much of what I planned. I'm still tinkering with the UGB version of the deck, having decided that although Witness + Unearth is an awesome plan/complement. I have also decided, however, that I just can't go on with the mana curve and mana base the way they are: it's too inconsistent.

Don't get me wrong, it works, and it works well enough, but there's no room for error. I still lose a number of games to poor opening hands which need to be mulled to five or four. The result is that playing the deck is more complicated than it should be, ideally, which is a real downside. As such, I have decided to take a radical step to fix the problem: I'm cutting Deed entirely (relegating it to the sideboard for now) and bumping the land count by two (one Catacombs, one Bayou). The final slot could go back to Deed or EE as an extra out against Zoo before boarding. As an alternative, I'm testing a single copy of Submerge (or I suppose it could remain empty, but I'm fairly committed to 61 cards, and it doesn't make much difference to the deck's inner workings). I'm keeping Fleshbag Marauder in the main (rather than Shriekmaw) for now.

EDIT: There is, of course, a possibility that I'd dismissed before: replacing the Deeds with the Natural Order/Progenitus combo. That would help deal with Jace, at any rate. I'll give it whirl.

My sideboard is also radically different, but it's all for testing against the shifting metagame. I wouldn't say it's quite up to snuff yet. It's currently heavy against the graveyard, but fairly light against combo.

I'll be having a look at the white option later today, and starting on the primer update for real.

Goaswerfraiejen
08-18-2010, 12:36 PM
Well, I should apologize for dismissing the NO-Prog combo when it was suggested a few months ago, and then again more recently. Those of you who suggested it were right: the deck is much better with it in place (especially since I now run 3x Witnesses and 1x Unearth). The consistency with which I can call it up is staggering, and it goes a long way towards making difficult matchups become much, much easier (JaceII isn't as much of a death sentence--YAY!). I think that's definitely the way to go with the deck that I've been touting these last couple years (i.e. UGB). The downside, of course, is that the deck is getting horrendously (prohibitively) expensive to build. I'm updating my primer to reflect these changes: I should be done with that in the next week or two, I think. In the meantime, the list I've been testing looks like this:

UGB River Rock

Lands (18)

3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
1 Wasteland


Creatures (16)

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Eternal Witness
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Shriekmaw (works a little better with NO than Marauder, a little worse with Unearth)
1 Progenitus
1 Empyrial Archangel (it's either this or the fourth Brainstorm. I haven't felt BS' absence, though, and maindecking it does have its up-sides.)


Spells (28)

4 Force of Will
3 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Intuition
3 Daze
3 Natural Order
3 Snuff Out
3 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Unearth
1 Life from the Loam


Sideboard (15)

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1x Open Slot


I still haven't finished testing the white splash suggested by Hanni: I got distracted, and I'm just one person. Now that I'm done my more comprehensive testing of Natural Order and Progenitus, that's what I'll be doing these next few days. Well, that, and my primer update. Should I just start a new thread, do you think?

Hanni
12-26-2010, 02:45 PM
I love how this deck is always changing, always evolving. The general shell of the deck allows for so much customization, whether it be a U/G/b list with Pernicious Deed, or a U/G/w list with Knight of the Reliquary.

I've been playing around with nothing but Vengevine lately, and it feels so reminiscent of this deck. I mean, it runs the same colors (U/G/b) and Intuition. The difference is that I've cut the slow Loam engine for the extremely fast Vengevine engine. It's funny just how similar this deck (Intuition Thresh) is to my Vengevine list.

What do you think about this, Goas?

U/B/g Vengeghast
Intuition Vengevine

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [R] Underground Sea
2 [A] Tropical Island
2 [R] Bayou
1 [UNH] Island
1 [UNH] Swamp

// Creatures
4 [7E] Birds of Paradise
4 [TO] Basking Rootwalla
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [TO] Aquamoeba
4 [ROE] Vengevine
3 [ZEN] Bloodghast
1 [FNM] Wonder

// Spells
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [TE] Intuition
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [NE] Daze
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [FNM] Cabal Therapy
SB: 3 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 1 [RAV] Life from the Loam

My normal list maindecks Entombs in place of the Pernicious Deeds for more broken starts, but I think Pernicious Deed has amazing synergy with Vengevines and Bloodghasts. Deed won't even hit Vengevines unless u pop it for 4+ (which is rare), and Bloodghast's can easily come back after a Deed.

This deck looks and feels almost exactly like Intuition Thresh, except it replaces the slow Loam engine with the faster (and more explosive) Vengevine and Bloodghast engines. The singleton Loam in the graveyard is mostly unecessary, but I'll leave it for now.

I'm curious to see what you think, Goas.

EDIT: After further testing, MD Entomb's are in fact better, but I've cut the Nature's Claim's from the sideboard for Pernicious Deed because they are extremely strong. The single Loam is junk, and I cut the Extirpate's down to 3. That leaves 2 free slots in the sideboard.