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raharu
11-08-2008, 10:33 PM
This thread is essentially for my budget MBA (Mono Black Agro) project, although it might not be precise to call it budget. It’s essentially being built with cards on hand, in addition to a few cards I’ll be buying for it.

At any rate, the concept of the deck is tempo-based agro-disruption, like most suicide black and/or MBA decks. The path to achieving this game-plan here is running solid threats and discard to have game against control, while running hopefully larger creatures, Equipment (to make small creatures into said hopefully larger creatures), and tempo-oriented removal to hack out a few games against agro. On to the list and card choice discussions, I presume.

Mana: 22
Swamp x18
Dark Ritual x4 (* <3 Monkey)

Disruption: 8
Duress x4
Hymn to Tourach x4 (* <3 Monkey)

Equipment: 4
Bonesplitter x4

Removal: 8
Vendetta x4
Snuff out x4

Creatures: 18
4x empty (could be Carnophage, Lucking Jackals, or Foul Imps, amongst other things)
Order of the Ebon Hand x4 (* <3 Monkey)
Hypnotic Specter x4 (* <3 Monkey)
Ashenmoor Gouger x3
Tombstalker x3



Sideboard: 15
Pithing Needle x3 (Equipment, SotF, Utility lands, SDT, Grim Lavamancer, Grindstone, Ravager, other problems)
Yixlid Jalier x4 (graveyard shenanigans, I.e. ITF, Ichorid, most decks playing LftL and/or Intuition, etc.)
Dark Confidant x3 (control)
Phyrexian Arena x2 (control)
Darkblast x3 (agro)

The mana: the main reason that I’m investing time into MBA instead of constructing a absolutely atrocious Manabase for fish (because the damn Manabase is all I’m missing for it) is that, in my previous experiences, I became rather frustrated at loosing to myself from Manabase inconsistency issues. The only way to alleviate this was to either sell a kidney or restrict myself to a single color. I can’t say anything about where you live, but down here in the south, them thur fillies love them some 2-kidney’d men, so I figured it was mono-color.dec time. Black was chosen because xsockmonkeyx loves me, ergo Hymns, Specters, and whatnot were already in a deck that closely resembled this, so I wouldn’t have to A) dig through my >9000 card collection (no, really), and B) I could actually have a playable deck that was worth playing. That, and I love me some Tombstalker, which were on hand.

Disruption: Well, Hymn + Duress, with Hypnotic Specter as well. It’s typical, but in all honesty it seems rather lacking. I was considering trying to find some room for Mind Rot, but then I remembered it’s a really bad, so I turned to Wrench Mind and… I can’t make the cut. That, and I somewhat expect a decent deal of Affinity to be there (although I might be incredibly wrong). Cabal Therapy has already jumped out at me, but at 5$ a pop, it’s sadly a good deal more than what I want to spend on them.

Equipment: I think this is what’s going to make the agro match-up doable, as it turns literally everything in the deck into an issue that needs to be taken care of. Flying 4/2s, First striking 4+/1s, 4/2 Specters, and 6/4s and 7/5s are neat. I could run a few jittes, but considering how jitte is such a tempo-sucking whore and I can leave my Bonesplitters in when I board Needle for the OP’s jitte, I decided against it.

Removal: this is where the deck starts to look a bit more obviously like a tempo deck. Snuff Out, by the virtue of being Snuff out, is great. Having your typical Dark Rutial&lol vomit-up-a-hand situations while killing their Lackey or Mother or Runes anyway is pretty neat, and Vendetta was chosen because I’ll never end up spending more mana to kill something than said dead thread costs. Also, it answers turn one issues like Lackey (not sure of Goblins’ presence in Dallas or wherever I end up playing this, but it’s nice to have options) Mother of Runes, and the ilk. It’s like a reverse StP, but since I should be the aggressor in ~90% of the matches I have a hope at winning anyway, it’s a non-issue. The inability to deal with black creatures pre-board isn’t a large concern, because the only black creatures that will be a problem are Dark Confidant, which is foiled by Hypnotic Specter and sideboard Darkblasts, and Tombstalker, which, on top of being kindafoiled by my own Stalkers, are only relevant in the ‘mirror’, where I should have advantage pre- and post-board (pre-board, I’m playing with a higher threat density, main deck equipment, and a ‘better’ Manabase, because my basic swamps are never going to get Stifle‘d, Waste‘d, or Pith‘d, and I don‘t mind Sinkholes because I‘m playing 18 real lands, so wasting BB to take a land of mine is a fair trade and just about gives me tempo while making late-game lands relevant. Post board, there are Needles for Shade and Darkblasts make Tombstalkers and all their other creatures much more manageable).

Creatures: Honestly, this is the only part of the deck I’m not relatively satisfied with. Well, really, I just don’t like the options I have in those last few slots. Ideally, there would be a good B drop that will be half-way playable. The closest I’ve seen are Lurking Jackals and Canrophage, and Jackals, while relevant late game, are only relevant late game, and Carnophage is just… icky. I presume I’m spoiled, as I’m more accustom to utility one drops and Isamaru in the 1cc creature slots of decks I play.

The sideboard: see the notes in parenthesis.


As for discussion on the deck, the questions I have are:

What are good sideboard choices in black?

Are Confidants and Arenas worthwhile to board in against control?

What options are available to make agro a better match (from the side, in the main, a different creature choice, etc.)?

Is Yixlid Jailer enough graveyard hate, or additional Relics of Proteginous(sp) needed to keep Ichorid and Loam shenanigans in check?

Should the Needles go in the main?

Comments and suggestions are appreciated.

EDIT: the whole time I was building this I was wondering "where the FUCK are the slumpy and CAMBA(cheap-ass mono-black agro) threads? CAMBA was superb and IIRC slumpy was pretty strong, back in the day. It seems like a lot of N&D and the Established Forum has gone missing recently.

DuxDucis
11-08-2008, 11:09 PM
Why not adjust things and run some O-Naginata over the Bonesplitter?

Tombstalker and Ashenmoor Gouger can already pick it up, maybe you could find a home for Rotting Giant? Now Rotting Giant isn't going to play nice with Tombstalker...Sangrophage maybe, probably just as "icky" as Carnophage.

Phyrexian Totem could be worth a shot...maybe costs too much to get going?

Have you considered sideboard options like:
Infest (generally your dudes are going to be bigger and stay alive)
Dystopia (I've always liked this one, I wonder if it is too narrow)


Just some thoughts of mine...

raharu
11-09-2008, 12:37 AM
Why not adjust things and run some O-Naginata over the Bonesplitter?

Tombstalker and Ashenmoor Gouger can already pick it up, maybe you could find a home for Rotting Giant? Now Rotting Giant isn't going to play nice with Tombstalker...Sangrophage maybe, probably just as "icky" as Carnophage.

Phyrexian Totem could be worth a shot...maybe costs too much to get going?

Have you considered sideboard options like:
Infest (generally your dudes are going to be bigger and stay alive)
Dystopia (I've always liked this one, I wonder if it is too narrow)


Just some thoughts of mine...
Well, O-Naginata is hard to use well because there aren't a whole ton of playable creatures in black that can pick it up. Gouger, 'Stalker, and Negator are just about it (excluding cards that have dis-synergy with TS, and other less-playable cards), so it's an awkward design constraint that creates curve issues and weakens the deck in Naginata's absence.

Infest kills 12 of my 18 creatures, i.e. two thirds of my deck. Nice against agro, but I've already surmised that Pyroclasm was most likely going to wreck this deck's shit before I had invested too much time in the creature base.

Dystopia is neat Enchantress tech, but I don't think I'll need it. That, and it's only really good as an Abyss against thresh (although I doubt this is going to have much problems out of threshold's creatures. Counterbalance is going to give this list shit-flipping fits, though.

Damnosus
11-10-2008, 01:50 PM
I would not dismiss Jitte so quickly. One of the reasons why I run it in my Sui black deck is because it opens up slots due to me not needing as much removal. Additionally, this is one reason why I run 4 Thoughtseize in my version because it allows me to take out creatures meaning that i don't need as much creature kill in my deck.

Furthermore, Jitte can often mediate the life loss of your deck. Surprisingly, I have never lost a game to burn decks (knock on wood). This was mostly due to jitte being able to keep me out of harm's way.

Another thing that I have personally been considering is moonstill cavalier. While I love pump and jump knights, there have been many games where either the first strike ability, or the flying ability would have won the game (and I didn't have that version at the time). Yes it is one more mana, but it does block tombstalker, avoids black and white spot removal, can kill a mongoose pretty easily, is better at avoiding countertop, and can possibly take down a goyf come lategame. All for one more mana. Oh and it is still a zombie, so it still turns off sarcomancy.

So just some thoughts to consider.

Media314r8
11-10-2008, 04:00 PM
IMO grafted wargear > bonesplitter, as your guys will possibly live through battles with their counterparts, and re-equiping it costs nothing. It would also be helpful to have some of your guys actually able to trade with goyfs, and +3 is going to put you that much closer to that 5 toughness, and I'd rather that (with free re-equips) than have to pump a knight just to make him trade with goyf. first-striking 5/3s are nothing to scoff at. Why no black knight? Swords is the most popular removal spell in the format.

raharu
11-10-2008, 06:34 PM
IMO grafted wargear > bonesplitter, as your guys will possibly live through battles with their counterparts, and re-equiping it costs nothing. It would also be helpful to have some of your guys actually able to trade with goyfs, and +3 is going to put you that much closer to that 5 toughness, and I'd rather that (with free re-equips) than have to pump a knight just to make him trade with goyf. first-striking 5/3s are nothing to scoff at.

I never thought of that. I'll test it (I have a few lying around, I'm sure of it), but I'm not too sure I'll like it, because I find myself switching 'Splitters between Flying Hypnotic Specters and Untapped Orders of the Ebon Hand so I don't have to spend BBBBB for my 4/1 First-Striking anti-agro wall, and still push through damage. That, and it's also a curve issue. I'll test it as a 3-of, with the 4th 'Splitter slot as a land.


Why no black knight? Swords is the most popular removal spell in the format.

True. I'll try to acquire a few. In the Carnophage slot? Ugh, black needs some good one-drops.


I would not dismiss Jitte so quickly. One of the reasons why I run it in my Sui black deck is because it opens up slots due to me not needing as much removal. Additionally, this is one reason why I run 4 Thoughtseize in my version because it allows me to take out creatures meaning that i don't need as much creature kill in my deck.

Furthermore, Jitte can often mediate the life loss of your deck. Surprisingly, I have never lost a game to burn decks (knock on wood). This was mostly due to jitte being able to keep me out of harm's way.[\QUOTE]

Well, I only have two. I'd rather have a strong anti-strategy against it and not run a suitable replacement than not run enough and have to spend more mana to answer their jittes with my own, or not have an effective anti-strategy, or have to board out my jittes to board in needles, weakening my agro, etc., etc. Being poor isn't about strategy, it's more about anti-strategy. That, and jitte is a tempo-sucking whore. That, and I hate not having it consistently. I would just buy more, but this deck is just a stop-gap so that I can have something mildly playable while I save up for my Fish manabase.

[QUOTE=Damnosus;292166]Another thing that I have personally been considering is moonstill cavalier. While I love pump and jump knights, there have been many games where either the first strike ability, or the flying ability would have won the game (and I didn't have that version at the time). Yes it is one more mana, but it does block tombstalker, avoids black and white spot removal, can kill a mongoose pretty easily, is better at avoiding countertop, and can possibly take down a goyf come lategame. All for one more mana. Oh and it is still a zombie, so it still turns off sarcomancy.

So just some thoughts to consider.

It's a money thing, and also a curve thing. The deck's curve feels terrible atm. It seems too thick at the 2 and 3 spots. It's super-annoying.

Mordel
11-10-2008, 07:11 PM
The newish b/w knight that has pro black and white might be a noteworthy card being as he is immune to everyone's favorite formerly tech removal spell(snuff out) AND swords. Too bad he costs three though.

Sorrowmoon cavalier or something is its name.

Funlicker
11-10-2008, 07:48 PM
Well every black creature is immune to "the new tech" snuff out since snuff out kills non-black creatures. So Stromgald Crusader is arguably better than STILLmoon Cavalier in a mono-black aggro deck. Also, Hand of Cruelty may be better than Black Knight. First strike is great, but Hand of Cruelty (when blocked) just plane does more damage. A HoC equipped with splitter, for example, can trade with a 4/5 goyf. Oh, and I think Stromgald may be better than Order of the Ebon Hand in an aggressive deck because of the evasion. Do you put enough cards in the grave fast enough to feed Tombstalker?

raharu
11-10-2008, 08:57 PM
The newish b/w knight that has pro black and white might be a noteworthy card being as he is immune to everyone's favorite formerly tech removal spell(snuff out) AND swords. Too bad he costs three though.

Sorrowmoon cavalier or something is its name.



Another thing that I have personally been considering is moonstill cavalier. While I love pump and jump knights, there have been many games where either the first strike ability, or the flying ability would have won the game (and I didn't have that version at the time). Yes it is one more mana, but it does block tombstalker, avoids black and white spot removal, can kill a mongoose pretty easily, is better at avoiding countertop, and can possibly take down a goyf come lategame. All for one more mana. Oh and it is still a zombie, so it still turns off sarcomancy.

So just some thoughts to consider.

It's a money thing, and also a curve thing. The deck's curve feels terrible atm. It seems too thick at the 2 and 3 spots. It's super-annoying.

There you go. And it's Stillmoon Cavalier.


Also, Hand of Cruelty may be better than Black Knight. First strike is great, but Hand of Cruelty (when blocked) just plane does more damage. A HoC equipped with splitter, for example, can trade with a 4/5 goyf. Oh, and I think Stromgald may be better than Order of the Ebon Hand in an aggressive deck because of the evasion. Do you put enough cards in the grave fast enough to feed Tombstalker?

With Bonesplitter, First Strike is a pretty big deal, because, when equipped, it's an anti-agro wall. Suicide has a historically terrible match with pure agro, and the tempo-based removal suite isn't really helping things, but negating every creature on their side of the field that doesn't have a toughness >2 (or >4 when equipped with 'Splitter) goes a long way towards making the agro MU do-able. Hand of cruelty only trades with Tarmogoyf, regardless of how many axes you pile on it. Black Knight, on the other hand, will stop the average-sized 'Goyf (3/4 is a reasonable size, for a while, and then 4/5 is more regular), and stop abnormally large 'Goyfs dead with a second axe, whereas HoC still only trades. This is why I'm so fond of 'Splitter in regards to Order of the Ebon Hand. It moves to wherever it needs to in order to make more damage, and then goes back on OotEH to stop agro. That, and OorEH is scalable, so it can still kill a 4/5 Tarmogoyf dead. Does it die to Fanatic and make Lava Darts epic? Kinda :frown: It's still a strong anti-agro creature though, and Black Knight is just as good, by merit of being stronger in certain areas and weaker in others (the inability to kill 'Goyf dead with only one 'Splitter). There aren't a whole lot of places that I'd want Hand of Cruelty, as it's the same size when unblocked, makes a worse blocker, and when it's blocked by something that would kill a 2/2, i.e. the Bushido comes into play, First Strike could be better oftentimes. It is a good suggestion, but in a agro metagame I don't think it's a strong choice, and I'm trying to tune the deck for agro.

Tombstalker question: Kinda. By the time that I want to cast Tombstalker, I generally can. More non-permanent spells would be nice, but I don't see anywhere that I would want to cut into, and I don't know what I'd play there. At any rate, in the agro MU I'll most likely be siding in Darkblasts, so Tombstalker should have enough food to eat to come in when early when I need it to.

On the note of Vendettas, the agro mu, and other related things, I'm thinking of going 2 Vendetta/ 2 Smother, because, while I HATE paying 2 mana to kill... anything, really, Smother doesn't take a bite out of my life total, and solves other problems (my inability to kill black utility creatures, etc.).

raharu
11-10-2008, 09:00 PM
Also, I can't thank you all enough for helping me with this little project. The conversations are really helping me develop this, and, as always, it's always wonderful to have people to cover this with. Thanks, all.

xsockmonkeyx
11-10-2008, 09:59 PM
Mana: 22
Swamp x18
Dark Ritual x4

Disruption: 8
Duress x4
Hymn to Tourach x4

Equipment: 4
Bonesplitter x4

Removal: 8
Vendetta x4
Snuff out x4

Creatures: 18
4x empty
Order of the Ebon Hand x4
Hypnotic Specter x4
Ashenmoor Gouger x3
Tombstalker x3

Okeydoke

I would normally suggest the fourth Tombstalker (best creature in the format, easy) but since I dont see fetches, so keep it at 3, I guess.

Vendetta+Snuff Out is asking for it. Contrary to popular belief your life total actually does matter. Id love to see edict effects in that slot to give you more diverse removal (targeted vs. sac). If i found those Diabolic Edicts they could probably have gone right in (still cant find em btw). As far as quantity, I think 7-8 creature removal is about right. Your defense sucks, and letting you opponent stall by chump blocking/bouncing is bad because you will largely be chipping away at their life total with weenies (sure you could be beating down with an unanswered Tombstalker but thats game anyways).

Bonesplitter is extremely underrated. Not ZOMG AWESOME!!1 but still very good.

One creature I would look at is Stromgald Crusader. Ppl mentioned Stillmoon Whatever, but it does pretty much the same thing, and the extra 1 mana cost is probably not mitigated by B:first strike, and pro:black. It still has the most important creature ability, flying, and ammunity to STP and black removal that says "non-black creature" (which was always the reason to run Black Knight/Order/Stromgald Knight).

I think you are running too many 3cc's. Hyppy stays, but Ashenmoor Gouger is not a good choice here IMO. With Suicide black you have the abillity to beat quickly after you attack your opponent's opening, but here you actually have to play defense, I imagine. And in that situation a 4/4, cannot block is pretty awful. I was going to maybe suggest Dauthi Slayer, but he suffers from the same problem. Also keep in mind that your lack of fetches for Tombstalker's means your curve is going to be topheavier than usual.

If you have Confidants, I would play them here. I dont like them in sui, but this deck is slower, and you will have more upkeep phases per game as a result. Tombstalker will probably hate you for it though, so SB?

Id love to see 4x Smallpox here. It can win you random games and feeds Tombstalker something fierce. The argument that you might have to sac your own creatures is asinine. That matters even less here because you are weenie.

Id like to add more but Im starting to feel shitty again, so maybe later.

~monkey

raharu
11-10-2008, 10:49 PM
Okeydoke

I would normally suggest the fourth Tombstalker (best creature in the format, easy) but since I dont see fetches, so keep it at 3, I guess.

That, and there aren't any in my area to jew people out of (not that jewing is a bad verb. It's actually my favorite. Is that bad?).


Vendetta+Snuff Out is asking for it. Contrary to popular belief your life total actually does matter. Id love to see edict effects in that slot to give you more diverse removal (targeted vs. sac). If i found those Diabolic Edicts they could probably have gone right in (still cant find em btw). As far as quantity, I think 7-8 creature removal is about right. Your defense sucks, and letting you opponent stall by chump blocking/bouncing is bad because you will largely be chipping away at their life total with weenies (sure you could be beating down with an unanswered Tombstalker but thats game anyways).

Against agro, I feel that Smother is stronger than Edict, because nailing the big threats is better than pegging a Fanatic/ Llanowar Elf/ other. While variety is good, I've never liked more than two or three Edicts, because they always seem to be good in already profitable matches.


Bonesplitter is extremely underrated. Not ZOMG AWESOME!!1 but still very good.

True. It makes a good deal of situations better (like agro and racing), isn't a tempo hole in the early/mid- game, and fits the curve nicely. Again, not ZOMG AWESOME!!1, but solid, and definitely better than other budget options.


One creature I would look at is Stromgald Crusader. Ppl mentioned Stillmoon Whatever, but it does pretty much the same thing, and the extra 1 mana cost is probably not mitigated by B:first strike, and pro:black. It still has the most important creature ability, flying, and ammunity to STP and black removal that says "non-black creature" (which was always the reason to run Black Knight/Order/Stromgald Knight).

I'm not so sure... Considering that Stromgald Crusader is good in in matches that I don't need it to be good in (agro-control, control), and Order of the Ebon Hand is good in the matches that I do need it to be good in, I'm not sure if Stromgald Crusader is warranted, because they're competing for the exact same slots.


I think you are running too many 3cc's. Hyppy stays, but Ashenmoor Gouger is not a good choice here IMO. With Suicide black you have the ability to beat quickly after you attack your opponent's opening, but here you actually have to play defense, I imagine. And in that situation a 4/4, cannot block is pretty awful. I was going to maybe suggest Dauthi Slayer, but he suffers from the same problem. Also keep in mind that your lack of fetches for Tombstalker's means your curve is going to be topheavier than usual.

Well, I haven't ran them yet (still waiting on the mail, woot for 0.25 a piece), but I don't think that adding a bit more weight to the 3cc spot is going to make it unwieldy(-er?) that it is atm (-4 Carnophage, -3 Gouger as both are in the mail, +2 Dross Golem, +3 Foul Imp, +2 Slith Bloodletter, which sucks fyi). It's really annoying to have the curve so thick at two, in all reality, but considering that most suicide decks are thick at two and three, I can't say this is abnormal. The available one-drops are just pure shit anyway, so there isn't much available to remedy that 'problem'. I'm thinking that cutting Gouger for a smaller threat in the 2cc slot could be a really bad plan. The deck is awkward enough with it's opening Rituals as it is, and the two-drops that are worth playing, outside of Black Knight, are mana-intensive as fuck, eating my tempo (the only thing the deck has going for it, really).


If you have Confidants, I would play them here. I dont like them in sui, but this deck is slower, and you will have more upkeep phases per game as a result. Tombstalker will probably hate you for it though, so SB?

I have 3 Confidants, but they're relegated to the sideboard because they're miserable draws in the agro match-up. Considering that agro is prolific in bad metas (like the presumed one as Dallas, and my local one), doing anything that worsens the agro MU is a cardinal sin. Well, kinda. I could play WW, but not having game against Control (which will invariably spring up in agro metagames) and Combo (see previous parenthetical comment) sounds like a plan destined to fail. So, like Shadow (an poster of times past, who developed Bunnies), I'm trying to take a deck that already has good matches against decks I'm half expecting, and tuning it to do fair against stupid agro.


Id love to see 4x Smallpox here. It can win you random games and feeds Tombstalker something fierce. The argument that you might have to sac your own creatures is asinine. That matters even less here because you are weenie.

This sounds like a pretty good plan, although I'm not too keen on the 4x. I'll get some, do a bit of testing, and take it from there. Also, the deck, with Tombstalkers, Order of the Ebon Hand, and soon to be Gouger, most likely isn't going to feel a lot like weenie, so I really don't think I'll mind Smallpox that much. Just off a Carnophage and swing for 4 or somesuch number.


Id like to add more but Im starting to feel shitty again, so maybe later.

~monkey

:frown: Sorry to hear you're feeling ill. I do hope you recover. This place isn't quite the same without you around :\

Mordel
11-11-2008, 05:19 PM
Okay, so I am back and I have not taken a dilotid in the last six hours:

You keep mentioning tempo and it is something to keep in mind, but it shouldn't be worried about too much when you are playing/constructing sui black. If you want to harness the power of tempo, play Eva Green, TA or UGr thresh. Sui plays creatures with extremely high power to cost ratios and kills an opponent asap and loses if it is forced into the late game. Tempo fits in this plan to a degree, but it should not be the first thing you worry about when you are piloting a deck whose wet dream is to play a 4/4 or 5/5 on the first turn. If not becoming a victim to losing tempo is such a big deal, run unmask so first turn gougers don't get stp'd. Maybe it's because I am an old school sui black player, but I don't really worry too much about card disadvantage or tempo as long as my creatures are connecting with my opponent every time they swing. You can tie theory into that, but the theory of tempo didn't exist when sui black was in its hayday around the time flesh reaver got printed. The reason sui black might have fallen out of favor and evolved into decks like Red Death, Eva Green and TA is because it doesn't really utilize tempo and frankly, doesn't have a lot of room to if you want to keep the deck a pure suicide black deck.


Stromgald crusader seems like he is worth a look because flying seems like it might be a bit more useful for the aggro plan than first strike, though first strike will be good against a mongoose assuming it is being played in UGW and not UGR because the latter would likely scoff at one toughness creature. I am not so sure on hyppie though. Hyppie is awesome when he comes out on the first turn and solid on the second, but I haven't really had any amazing experiences with it coming down on the third.

In regards to the search for a one drop, lurking jackals is no realy worth looking at because it is going to be a midgame card basically. Carnophage is most likely your best bet. I don't understand the use of the word "utility" to describe Isamaru. Isamaru is totally awesome, but it is a vanilla 2/2 with no drawbacks. Aside from being a turn faster, it has no more utility than a grizzly bears. I used to run sarcomancy back in the day, but I also would run negator in the same deck, so if a zombie died sarcomancy would probably follow by being sacced to negs...or at the very least, a carnophage would hit the table at satisfy the sarcomancy's need for a zombie. If you ran another zombie card, sarcomancy might actually be better than carno.

Eighteen is a pretty solid creature count, but two stalkers and four gougers might be better. Why I say this is because unless you are blowing up lots of creatures and hands, chances are stalkers will be sitting in your hand for a bit. To be honest, I think tombstalker is awesome, but no fetchlands and no abundance of cantrips means that he is going to be playing the role of surprise fat as opposed to third turn 5/5 most of the time. I actually don't really like him in this deck at all. Considering he will be hitting play around turn four a lot of the time, you might as well just run a four mana 5/5, that way it will at least come down on the second turn. I do like tombstalker a lot though, so don't get me wrong.

What are the decks that you are aiming to beat with this deck exactly? Maybe if I read the through the thread again, I will be able to figure this out. Are you aiming this deck at a universal metagame(like me because I play 1.5 on m-l exclusively) or are you trying to take down the decks at top tables at your store/meta where you live. The reason I ask is because suicide black-style decks have lots of creatures you can run, however as you might have noticed they have different downsides that are non-apparent in some matches and absolutely brutal in others.

If you are actually seeing a lot of burn (rather than just fearing it) negator is a totally awesome three drop. If you run him, you have a good excuse to run sarcomancy as well, instead of carnophage. Bitterblossom is another awesome card that works well if you have to play defensively(which a sui black deck should never, ever, ever let itself be forced to do).

I have a sui black deck and it looks like:

4xnegator
4xsarcomancy
4xstromgald crusader
4xashenmoor gouger
4xbitterblossom

3xUmezawa's jitte
4xthoughtseize(I like to pick goyfs)
4xhymn to tourach
4xsnuff out
4xdark ritual

4xchrome mox
4xwasteland
12xswamp

SB

4xcontamination
4xleyline of the void
4xpithing needle
3xdystopia

I was going to start experimenting with dusk urchin because getting two or three cards seemed to have potential. Jitte may be bad tempo, but it also wins games something fierce when a negator/gouger holding it is swinging on the third turn. The above deck is largely un-tuned, but that's my take on the archetype.

When it comes to negator, I think there are two types of people generally: people that have played it and would play it again and people that haven't and never will. Negator is obviously a bad choice if there are lots of bolts where you play, but goyfs are seldom bigger than 2/3's when they are stepping in the negator's way and they usually get snuffed when you don't have a mox you don't anymore out or a sarcomancy.

Citrus-God
11-12-2008, 10:11 PM
Creatures:
4x Rotlung Reanimater
4x Dark Supplicant
4x Order of the Ebon Hand
4x Withered Wretch
4x Cabal Archon
3x Shepard of Rot
1x Scion of Darkness

Spells:
4x Dark Ritual
4x Duress
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Unearth

Land:
20x Swamp


SB:
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Engineered Plague
4x Nevinyrral's Disk
3x Tormod's Crypt

Soo... this deck is like uber bad ass. Seriously, I'm not even kidding anymore... kinda... The deck needs to be slightly tweaked a little before it gets played again. Also, Withered Wretch is bad ass.

raharu
11-12-2008, 10:57 PM
Creatures:
4x Rotlung Reanimater
4x Dark Supplicant
4x Order of the Ebon Hand
4x Withered Wretch
4x Cabal Archon
3x Shepard of Rot
1x Scion of Darkness

Spells:
4x Dark Ritual
4x Duress
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Unearth

Land:
20x Swamp


SB:
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Engineered Plague
4x Nevinyrral's Disk
3x Tormod's Crypt

Soo... this deck is like uber bad ass. Seriously, I'm not even kidding anymore... kinda... The deck needs to be slightly tweaked a little before it gets played again. Also, Withered Wretch is bad ass.
I actually thought of going in that direction, but I figured that Hypnotic Specter was a bit more important than the ability to go rawrrawrrawr Scion. I'll look more into it, though, when I have the resources to spend on it.

Citrus-God
11-12-2008, 11:06 PM
I actually thought of going in that direction, but I figured that Hypnotic Specter was a bit more important than the ability to go rawrrawrrawr Scion. I'll look more into it, though, when I have the resources to spend on it.

Whats awesome is that you only need 20 bucks for the maindeck.

raharu
11-12-2008, 11:30 PM
Whats awesome is that you only need 20 bucks for the maindeck.
o_O

Awww HELL YEAH. Then again, that's like two-thirds of a whole fetch :laugh:.

Thanks for the list.

xsockmonkeyx
11-13-2008, 11:37 PM
I did a search for 1 drops and found pretty much nothing. A card I thought would be awesome if you didnt have Tombstalker is Putrid Imp, but obviously they dont play well with each other. So I was thinking you should just stick to playing knights and try to take advantage of first strike to hold off aggro. Youll never beat goblins, but it still gives you a chance against ppl with Goyfs and Kird Apes. So for the open slots I would plug in some number of Knight of Stromgald and maybe look to pick up some Jittes to compliment your first strikers. Also, a 1x Urborg (the one out of Legends) would be hilarious just because a first strike deck is the only place it would ever be useful.

I feel that Mishra's Factory could be another card that you should look at. You are basically looking for BB, but beyond that, you could afford to trade some number of black mana sources for colorless to get some land-bears. With 2 Factories and a bonesplitter you could be smacking down 4/5 Goyfs and/or beating down your opponent with a Juggernaut.

As to the Edict, if you think you can only make use of 2 then play those 2. I feel its one of the best removal cards you have available and it should be somewhere in the starting 60, especially if you are having problems dealing with aggressive creatures.

So how about a list? Everyone else is throwing them out there:

4 Order of the Ebon Hand
3 Knight of Stromgald
3 Stromgald Crusader
4 Hyppy
3 Tombstalker

4 Mishras' Factory
4 Bonesplitter

2 Nevinyrral's Disk

2 Smother
2 Diabolic/Chainer's Edict
3 Snuff out/Vendetta

3 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach

14 Swamp
1 Urborg
4 Dark Ritual

So basically you play our you creatures, attack their hand and board position, then dump your extra mana into your stuff when you run out of gas. If shit hits the fan, throw a disk out there and hope for the best. Its one of the oldest archetypes I can think of for "legacy" type magic, dating to at or around Black Summer. Obviously you dont have Necropotence, but even after it was restricted, the deck was still a force to be reckoned with, what with STP being the main removal in the format. And, hey, guess what? Today StP is still relevant, so it can't be all bad.

Ive played these type of budget decks based off Orders/Knights with play test partners for like forever. I can usually hold my own with them, as long as I can out play them/get lucky, which applies to any game of magic. Also it really pisses them off when they realize they just lost to a bunch of Orders of the Ebon Hand and a Bonesplitter. This will never be a DtB and isnt going to win any major tourney's anytime soon, but you can still beat some face with only a little money wasted on these magical pieces of cardboard.

~monkey

Mordel
11-14-2008, 03:20 AM
I am having a difficult time accepting people not wanting to run sarcomancy or carnophage for one drops...

If a vanilla 2/2 for one is not what you are looking for, that's one thing, but losing one life per turn is not a big deal. I am not seeing fetches or tombs, just snuff outs. One damage per turn is not going to be extremely detrimental in the extremely vast majority of cases.

kicks_422
11-14-2008, 06:43 PM
Paying 1 life a turn isn't a big deal... If it's actually doing anything. The 1 life loss would be a lot more painful if your Carnophage is just sitting there doing nothing... Usually because of an untapped Goyf in the other end.

Mordel
11-14-2008, 07:21 PM
Goyf is basically the biggest reason for why I rock snuff outs in the main. I also have jitte. Other decks that I am seeing run more targeted removal. I hear you on the goyf thing, but isn't the point of black aggro to knock the wind out of its opponent fast with discard and just end the game asap? It isn't like you will really be forseeably sitting there saving your removal...

Nihil Credo
11-14-2008, 07:43 PM
The 1 life loss would be a lot more painful if your Carnophage is just sitting there doing nothing... Usually because of an untapped Goyf in the other end.
If you have no use for your Carnophage, you can just leave it tapped and not have to pay any life.

I still think he's fairly weak at the moment, anyway.

Funlicker
11-14-2008, 07:45 PM
I think it's worth mentioning that an untapped goyf is likely doing the opponent no good if you have any flier (hypnotic specter, stromgald crusader, wasp lancer, tombstalker,) any shade like creature + some mana (order of the ebon hand, nantuko, ect..), or any shadow creature. Which is a pretty much any creature outside carnophage and sarcomancy that is played in mba. Also with a bonesplitter all of the above threats can handle goyf that much easier. So if you have a hypnotic specter and carnophage in play and your opponent is sitting there with an untapped goyf just to block the phage the 1 life you're losing from carnophage is much better than the potential 3-5 you'll lose from goyf smacking you in the face.

My point is either you're losing and the opponent is swinging at you with goyfs (in which case you don't have enough mana to pump shades which means carnophage is just as good a blocker since all your unpumped creatures are just expensive carnophages), or you're winning and the 1 life doesn't matter. It's likely that carnophage will hit and do it's job, and then chump block later while you finish off the opponent with a flier making the life loss negligible.

Cyrus
11-15-2008, 06:11 PM
You should really consider Reanimate. Getting a Goyf for B and 2 life is t3h sh1zn1t.

Atwa
11-15-2008, 06:19 PM
You should really consider Reanimate. Getting a Goyf for B and 2 life is t3h sh1zn1t.

True thing, I've been playing that trick for over a year and a half and people are still surprised about it.

raharu
11-15-2008, 06:58 PM
While this an entirely true story, they also cost more than I'm willing to spend on this particular deck at the moment :\

Cyrus
11-15-2008, 07:01 PM
I honestly think its worth it. It may win more games than you'd imagine.

raharu
11-15-2008, 07:59 PM
Well, fetches and duals and whatnot would also :3 The point of this deck is to have something playable while I construct something else. That, and I'd rather have something that's unconditional in those slots (i.e. they're dead against control, combo, etc.) since the metric asston of removal is already dead there anyway.

You are right though. Maybe in the side instead of Darkblasts.

raharu
11-17-2008, 08:09 PM
Well, some limited testing shows that it doesn't have all that many issues against the tribal agro in the area, which consists of Merfolk (a FoW-less list, but high-quality aside from that), and a well-built elves list, although that might have something to do with the players, which are notorious amongst the Battletoadz team for sucking horrendously bad :frown: Hopefully I'll get some testing against 5c threshold done soon so I can tune a bit for that match, and take this wonderful pile to a tournament. A large part of why the deck feels so soild against the agro match is 8 maindeck removal and the presence of Xbox Heug creatures. Tombstalker, despite feeling slower than christmas (turn five seems to come slower than molasses), is still an amazing threat here (echoing the sentiments of Monkey, he's the best creature in the format), and Ashenmoor Gouger's inability to block isn't a large problem against agro because most of the time they're scrambling to find a blocker, much less trying to race me. Merfolk tend to be the exception to the rule, with 8 pump effects and Wake Thrasher, it's pretty stupid, but a blocker really wouldn't help. Card Advantage seems to be the deciding factor against agro. The easier matches I had were when I'd rawdog their hand and drop a Hypnotic Specter, the easiest matches consisted of first turn Specters, Hymns, and BOnesplitters. Gougers were also supremely useful against agro too. Not like Tombstalkers, but useful. They were more like removal than anything else, because Gougers are typically large enough to matter a lot, and with the other threats flying (Specter, 'Stalker) or small (unequipped Carnophages and Order of the Ebon hands), Gougers are srs bsns for agro. That, and they either kill or trade with most anything. Also, about agro, the Darkblasts and Pithing Needles were more relevant than expected, even if they were boarded in because Duress is lame against creaturesandlands.dec.

As far as the Vendettas are concerned, I'm thinking of cutting two of them for Smothers. The Vendettas aren't large encumbrances, but Smother will be better at handling Tarmogoyf, and will help the agro match more (because staring at a lethal 13/13 Wake Thrasher is a bitch when you've a Vendetta in hand, although that might have been a play mistake, not sure) by creating a bit more of a life-total buffer and allowing you to nerf overly large creatures without killing yourself. Perhaps 4 Snuff out, 2 Smother, 2x something, which will either be Smallpox, or Diabolic Edict, or Vendettas, although the meta may prohibit Vendettas... Eh. They're just not the best option. I like them tons though, so we'll see if X life is better than 1 mana.

Cyrus
11-17-2008, 08:45 PM
I don't know about you, but I love wasp lancers. They are almost Serendib Efreets without the drawback. Dude, Vendetta + Snuff Out + Carnophage really screw with your life total. I suggest a mix of smother + edicts or maybe 4 smothers. I really, really like reanimate though. They matter a lot more than duals and fetches, believe me. Most of the times the life loss isn't important.

raharu
11-17-2008, 09:42 PM
Honestly though, Gougers are better than Lancers about 90% of the time (as they're essentially worse versions of Specters 5-7 if they're in the Gouger slots, and while Specter carries a Bonesplitter nicely, it's still not as strong an agro piece as Gouger, and worse against agro), and Vendettas aren't such a big deal. They only matter against fast agro, which is why I'm so keen on them (because they kill most anything for a minimum mana investment against Agro-Control, and don't afraid of most things, just the large ones). If I could, I'd play 8 Snuff Outs, lifeloss be damned. Owell, it's time to play Smothers and see how that turns out. It'll most likely be a 2/2 split on Vendettas and Smothers, considering that the 3cmc restriction on Smother is sometimes relevant, and the random times where I can't do enough fast enough because I don't have the mana open for removal or whatever suck, so I like the fact that vendetta is cheaper to cast. We'll see, at any rate.

retic720
11-19-2008, 06:06 AM
Hi guys,

Was referred from this (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11912) thread coz I also have the same goals :)

I discussed this with a friend of mine and he's a strong advocate of the "rule of 2" for tombstalkers as having 3 - 4 will increase the chances of having a dead card in the opening hand (which is obviously bad).

At the same time however, I need your advice on this deck I'll be developing for legacy...hehehe


2 Tombstalkers
4 Hand of Cruelty
3 Hypnotic Specter
4 Dauthi Slayer
4 Dauthi Horror
4 ? (best ideas? was told black knight is a bad idea...)

Spells: 19

4 Dark Rituals
2 Sword of Fire and Ice (this raped my wallet big time :(...)
3 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach (this better than distress?)
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Rend Flesh (no smothers at the moment..hehehe)

Lands: 20
20 swamps

xsockmonkeyx
11-20-2008, 02:20 AM
Hi guys,

Was referred from this (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11912) thread coz I also have the same goals :)

I discussed this with a friend of mine and he's a strong advocate of the "rule of 2" for tombstalkers as having 3 - 4 will increase the chances of having a dead card in the opening hand (which is obviously bad).

At the same time however, I need your advice on this deck I'll be developing for legacy...hehehe


2 Tombstalkers
4 Hand of Cruelty
3 Hypnotic Specter
4 Dauthi Slayer
4 Dauthi Horror
4 ? (best ideas? was told black knight is a bad idea...)

Spells: 19

4 Dark Rituals
2 Sword of Fire and Ice (this raped my wallet big time :(...)
3 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach (this better than distress?)
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Rend Flesh (no smothers at the moment..hehehe)

Lands: 20
20 swamps

Mask of Memory looks like the perfect card for you. You have all this cheap evasion, you need to fill up your yard for Tombstalker, and hell it's like 10 cents.

Hymn to Tourach is orders of magnitude better than Distress. Lots of people say that Force of Will has won them the game the most out of any card. For me Hymn to Tourach is one of those cards.

For your open slots try Knight of Stromgald/Order of the Ebon Hand and/or Stromgald Crusader. Stay the hell away from Stillmoon Crusader, that would be the worst possible choice at the moment especially with money factored in.

retic720
11-20-2008, 04:17 AM
Thanks :)

So basically....Bane has NO place at all in this decklist? While waiting for my hippies, was thinking of putting in the banes in the mean time.

Ideas? Thoughts?

Thanks again...

xsockmonkeyx
11-20-2008, 02:16 PM
Thanks :)

So basically....Bane has NO place at all in this decklist? While waiting for my hippies, was thinking of putting in the banes in the mean time.

Bane of the Living? Probably not useful enough to maindeck, and too narrow to SB. So he probably doesnt make the cut no matter how many times you build this.

Also, what's this 'rule of 2' that you mentioned?

retic720
11-20-2008, 11:48 PM
rule of 2: only 2 tombstalkers in a deck unless you got heaps of non perma spells and fetchlands...

raharu
11-22-2008, 06:49 PM
So, Mask of Memory demands to be in the deck now (I mean, seriously, why the hell not? Tombstalker advantage, card advantage, and filtration in one card? yesplz), so I'll be trying Foul Imps again instead of the Carnophages. The problem now is what to cut for the Masks? Bonesplitters literally make the agro match (well, alongside Orders), so they stay (but perhaps in a reduced capacity?), and 8 removal is great, so I don't really want to reduce that, and the creatures don't have any room to cut into, so...

I presume that -2 Vendetta (leaving the list Vendetta-less) and -1 Bonesplitter for +3 Mask of Memory, and -4 'Phage for +4 Foul Imp to support it. Thoughts?

xsockmonkeyx
11-22-2008, 10:51 PM
So, Mask of Memory demands to be in the deck now (I mean, seriously, why the hell not? Tombstalker advantage, card advantage, and filtration in one card? yesplz), so I'll be trying Foul Imps again instead of the Carnophages. The problem now is what to cut for the Masks? Bonesplitters literally make the agro match (well, alongside Orders), so they stay (but perhaps in a reduced capacity?), and 8 removal is great, so I don't really want to reduce that, and the creatures don't have any room to cut into, so...

I presume that -2 Vendetta (leaving the list Vendetta-less) and -1 Bonesplitter for +3 Mask of Memory, and -4 'Phage for +4 Foul Imp to support it. Thoughts?

Take a look at Mishra's Factorys. Ive been trying them in my Sui list and they are making a pretty nice showing. At least they are much more reliable than Carnophage, bleh. Run them in creature slots.

If your running Mask then Dauthi Slayer becomes more sexy. They are part of the reason I mentioned Mask for relic720.

Also, Ive been running 4x Unmask and Im at a loss for reasons to cut them. Very underrated.

Funlicker
11-23-2008, 01:56 AM
4x Unmask in addition to 8x other discard effects and 4x hyppies? or what did you replace hymn, duress?

xsockmonkeyx
11-23-2008, 01:54 PM
4x Unmask in addition to 8x other discard effects and 4x hyppies? or what did you replace hymn, duress?

Prolly goes is another thread but here you go:

4 Dark Ritual
4 Unmask
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn
4 Spectre
4 Tombstalker
4 Negator
4 Wasteland
4 Snuff out
7 Sinkhole/Smallpox/Edict
5 Black Fetch
9 Swamp
3 Mishra's Factory

4 Engineered Plague
4 Powder Keg
3 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline

Still working on the Sinkhole/Pox/Edict mix and whether Negator stays.

raharu
11-23-2008, 03:54 PM
In that list I'd most likely cut Negator for Gouger, considering that they have similar drawbacks (you'll never want to/ can't block with them), while Gouger is a point smaller on either end, but isn't as vulnerable. Of course, it's important to note that they don't play nice with Wastelands and Factories, but if Smallpox and Sinkhole are working for you, then I don't see a whole lot of reason that Gouger will be frequently dead.

Also, how's the agro match?

xsockmonkeyx
11-23-2008, 04:33 PM
In that list I'd most likely cut Negator for Gouger, considering that they have similar drawbacks (you'll never want to/ can't block with them), while Gouger is a point smaller on either end, but isn't as vulnerable. Of course, it's important to note that they don't play nice with Wastelands and Factories, but if Smallpox and Sinkhole are working for you, then I don't see a whole lot of reason that Gouger will be frequently dead.
That sounds reasonable. But the BBB will be an issue, Ill tell you that right now.


Also, how's the agro match?
Awful. Im trying to beat combo and control, make no mistake.

raharu
11-23-2008, 07:03 PM
Awful. Im trying to beat combo and control, make no mistake.

Point taken. I presume that the cost of 4 Unmasks, 4 Thoughtseizes, 4 Hymns, and 4 Hypnotic Specters is a smaller creature-base and less removal :3 Personally, I couldn't imagine playing scoop 'em up buttercup against agro (well, post board at least), so while extra removal might seem narrow, playing Smothers or Vendettas in the side (most likely Smothers, considering that they are boarded for the agro match) should help. Actually, I'd consider moving the Unmasks to the side, but if agro isn't a concern, then by all means keep them. I've played them before and they're great, essentially Thoughtseizes 5-8 or Black Force of Will (maybe that's a slight exaggeration, but Thoughtseize -> Unmask against combo and control is a epic beating). I wish I still had my set :frown: