PDA

View Full Version : [Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo



Pages : [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

Pulp_Fiction
11-18-2008, 05:06 PM
Non-LED Dredge Primer

For those who don’t know Dredge/Ichorid is a graveyard based Combo/Aggro deck that wins by milling itself through Dredge cards and draw effects and then Dread Returning Flame-Kin Zealot into play with Bridge From Below in the graveyard and making a bunch of 2/2 Zombie tokens and swinging for the win. This primer will introduce you to the differences between LED-based Dredge decks and Non-LED based Dredge and talk about how to play it right and SB properly.


Differences

The basic difference between LED and Non-LED is the tradeoff of explosiveness for consistency. Because it does not play Lion’s Eye Diamond it can’t possibly win on turn 1 and this is why the deck is considered slower. Non-LED will consistently win on turns 2-4 every time because it is able to reliably dredge into the combo. Also the mulligans, LED Dredge mulligans like shit and oftentimes are forced to keep a hand of just LED to discard their hands (they don’t have mana to cast Putrid Imp) which makes them even more reliant on Deep Analysis (which goes hand-in-hand with LED). Non-LED Dredge is reliant on nothing. You can discard your hand with Tireless Tribe, Putrid Imp, Careful Study, Breakthrough, or you can Cabal Therapy yourself and each of those are equally effective. Careful Study acts as a mini-Breakthrough and helps find SB cards as well as helps in bating a Tormod's Crypt and oftentimes counterspells. In short, this build is just as fast but can't win on turn 1 and is infinitely more consistent.

Why No Deep Analysis and LED?

Deep Analysis and LED were my least favorite cards in the deck because they were reliant on each other. DA in the yard without an LED in play was essentially useless. Plus it does nothing to find SB cards due to it being uncastable in your hand and does not assist in discard. Careful Study is just better in every way and if Careful Study gets countered the most it costs you is 1-3 life or a mine counter off your land; where-as with DA, that gets countered you are in a world of hurt more often than not. DA and LED destroy consistency for the sake of being fast, that’s it, they assist in nothing else.

Why No Golgari Thug?

I used to run Golgari Thug but between PImp and Stinkweed and other Ichorids I never found it hard finding creatures to remove to bring Ichorid back. Now certain builds will run the Thug and there is nothing wrong with this but in Non-LED Dredge Darkblast is just better. Also, I get tired of freaking out when a Mogg Fanatic was on the table and needing a Pithing Needle or hoping to dredge into something that isn't just destroyed by that damn creature. Darkblast serves an essential role, the removal of imminent threats: Mogg Fanatic, Yixlid Jailer, Withered Wretch (if they are tapped out), and Gaddock Teeg. Oftentimes you will destroy Dark Confidant to keep them off of additional hate cards or a Lackey to keep the game at a slower pace. Darkblast is also amazing in the mirror, a premature Narcomoeba kill for LED Dredge is awful and so is removal of Pimp as well as Darkblasting your own creatures to remove their Bridges! And if worst comes to worst you can keep Darkblasting something and dredge it back if you have no discard outlet. The fact that Darkblast only dredges for 3 (instead of 4 like Thug) has never been relevant. And finding Ichorid fodder is never really a problem.

Why only 3x Ichorid?

Ichorid is not needed as a 4x of in Non-LED Dredge. I ran 4x of them originally and cut it down to 3x after extensive play of the deck. When you have 2 of them in the yard in the early game you will rarely ever want to reanimate more than 1. Late game 3x is more than enough (if it comes to a late game) and since this deck runs Tireless Tribe you are a LOT less Reliant on Ichorid. I reached 3x Ichorids after trial and error, just the number I prefer and the number run in 95+% of the extended builds because the focus of the deck is different. Plus with the addition if Tireless Tribe you don't need any more creatures to sacrifice. 4x Ichorid is not wrong if you want to run that many but it is really unneeded and the aggro plan with just 3x Ichorid is just as effective if not faster than LED Dredge.

Must Have 11 Dredge cards!

Originally I ran 10 dredgers 4x Stinkweed Imp, 4x Golgari Grave-Troll, and 2x Darkblast and the deck worked good but it just needed an additional dredger so I was forced to make a cut. Breakthrough is the most vulnerable card in the deck and you usually only want to see 1 per game since that is more than enough. And since my meta has a lot of Thresh in it anyway I am trying to get the maximum effect of this deck with minimal risk IE not relying on a single spell to win the game. That is why I only run 3x Breakthrough, it is a good card, but it makes the deck more vulnerable to counterspells.

Why 15 Lands?
15 lands is the reason this deck wins through hate cards so much better than LED dredge does (from my experience). I have won SO many games just because I am able to cast Narcomoebas and Stinkweed Imp, and you are able to do this with suprising consistency. I remember one game I got Extirpated 3 times (Bridge, Ichorid, and Dread Return) then Jotun Grunt removed my graveyard and I still won because I was able to cast Stinkweeds and Narcomoebas. Also, playing 15 lands drastically helps mulligans. When you are playing against Leyline of the Void it is so nice to have those extra lands to find Wispmare+ land in your opening hand. It also makes the deck way more resiliant against Wasteland. If you do end up running 15 lands don't play fetchlands because it opens the deck up even more to Stifle. The gold lands are the way to go.

Is Non-LED Dredge Really That Much Slower?

In short … no. In my opinion Non-LED Dredge is faster because it is more fixated on the combo and it truly will win on turns 2-4. It is just as fast as LED Dredge is when you take the aggro route to victory. But because this deck can not possibly win on turn 1 it is commonly referred to as “slow Dredge” but do not be deceived, it is every bit as fast a LED-based strategies. The reason this deck is able to keep pace is the consistency. Not relying on LED and DA to win games is a huge advantage.

How Does Non-LED Dredge Do in the Mirror Match?

I have played the mirror a total of 4 times in a tournament setting and I have never lost the matchup. I don't SB anything (unless I know they play Leyline of the Void). You could SB in Pithing Needle for PImp or Cechalid Colisseum since they are a lot more affected than you are by that. But normally I SB nothing and the mirror match is just who gets more dumb creatures in play faster. Darkblast is also key in this matchup since you can Darkblast your own creatures to remove their Bridges. One thing you could do, but only if you are on the play is SB in Chalice of the Void and drop it for 0 and then side them out when you are on the draw since they will play LED first anyway.

Decklist and Card Explanations

4x Careful Study
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Putrid Imp
4x Bridge from Below
4x Narcomoeba
3x Tireless Tribe
3x Ichorid
3x Dread Return
3x Darkblast
3x Breakthrough
3x Cabal Therapy
2x Cephalid Sage
1x Flame-Kin Zealot

4x Cephalid Colisseum
4x Gemstone Mine
4x City of Brass
2x Tarnished Citadel
1x Undiscovered Paradise

SB
4x Wispmare
4x Pithing Needle
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Chain of Vapor

Careful Study: As stated earlier, it acts as a mini-Breakthrough, discard outlet, counterspell and Tormod’s Crypt bait, and helps to find SB cards. Very important card for the deck.

Golgari Grave-Troll: Dredges for 6 and when Dread Returned it is MASSIVE.

Stinkweed Imp: Dredges for 5, brings Ichorid back, blocks Tarmogoyf if the game comes to it.

Putrid Imp: Discard outlet, swings at the opponent, and brings Ichorid back.

Bridge From Below: The deck is based around this, makes Zombies!

Narcomoeba: Free creature when dredged into and with 15 lands you can actually cast it if it is in your hand!

Tireless Tribe: Spectacular card, it stalls serious aggro decks so well and acts as a discard outlet. This deck will not work nearly as well without this card!

Ichorid: 3/1 Haste, free … yep he’s good in here.

Dread Return: Essential part of the combo, needed as a 3-of in Non-LED Dredge because it is crucial to speed and the ability to Dread Return multiple targets in a single turn is crucial.

Darkblast: Another very needed card. It stalls aggro, dredges, acts as its own discard outlet with lands in play, and removes hate cards.

Breakthrough: Essential part of the combo but the most vulnerable card in the deck. 4x is not wrong but 3x is most likely the correct call.

Cabal Therapy: Same as Breakthrough, it could be run as a 4x of or 1x could be in the SB as well.

Cephalid Sage: Essential part of the combo. 2x are necessary since the focus of this deck is on the combo rather than the aggro route and running something like Angel of Despair in this spot is sub-par.

Flame-Kin Zealot: Makes hasty 3/3 Zombies when Dread returned and wins games!

Cephalid Colisseum: Assists in dredging and with 15 lands you will have VERY minimal problems with 4.

Gemstone Mine: Gold land that doesn’t hurt you!

City of Brass: Gold land that doesn’t give the opponent creatures.

Tarnished Citadel: Worst land in the deck but it must be run as it beats out all the alternative Gold lands.

Undiscovered Paradise: Only good as a 1-of since it sucks in multiples and will occasionally assist in discarding if you are in a tight spot.

SB

The SB is all meta-dependent but I prefer to run:

Wispmare: I have seen Leyline of the Void recast VIA Dark Ritual to many times as well as Propaganda effects and Elephant Grass etc. In case you can’t win next turn it is great to have Wispmare there to kill hate cards and it can even be Dread Returned if necessary.

Pithing Needle: Has to be in every Dredge SB, it stops to many cards to list, and is the most common card sided in, play 4!

Chalice of the Void: In here to serve a few roles, but mainly to slow opposing combo decks from winning before we do but also can be used to stop Tormod’s Crypt.

Chain of Vapor: It is just nice to have this card in the SB as an “answer all” type of card. If you are unsure of the hate cards being sided in just put this in and hope for the best!

Matchup Analysis

Threshold
Very Favorable. 75% pre and post board. I have not kept track of the win statistics but the only time I have really lost to Threshold in a tournament setting was when I mulled into oblivion or mulled to very little cards and had my first spell countered. Proper SB techniques depend on what they play. Against Threshold it will usually be -1 Sage, -1 Dread Return, -2 Breakthrough, and +4 Pithing Needle. In this matchup Cabal Therapy should almost always name Engineered Explosives but it depends on how aggressive your draw is.

NOTE: This is just how I personally SB, there are right and wrong cards to side out but this is how I play the deck, there a numerous different ways to SB this deck properly.

Stiflenought/Dreadstill
Somewhat Favorable. Expect to win around 65% pre and post board. This matchup can be tough since they have a clock that can't be blocked by Tireless Tribe (more than once) and they play Trinket Mage to fetch Crypt. Board the same as Thresh. Be sure that when comboing off to watch their lands, if they have a blue mana open always Cabal Therapy them first naming Stifle.

Goblins
Extremely Favorable. Expect to win 90% pre board and 80% post. This is where Darkblast shines. You are not afraid of Mogg Fanatic at all and Darkblast on Lackey can severly stall them out. Just be cautious as some builds run Leyline in the SB and be prepared for that. Also watch Vial being kept at 1 and don't lose your Bridges to an unsuspecting Fanatic. I would SB like this: -1 Dread Return, -1 Sage, -1 Careful Study, -1 Breakthrough and +4 Pithing Needle and against Leyline just put in 4 Wispmare since you can already handle Fanatics.

Storm Combo
Not Good. Expect to win around 25% pre-board and 35-45% post board. This matchup varies greatly but if you are playing against TES or FT they are a lot less affected by Chalice than Belcher is. If you have a choice as to what combo deck to play against you want Belcher since you can easily race 14ish goblin tokens! SB would be -4 Careful Study +4 Chalice of the Void. Mull into Chalice or Cabal Therapy and just hope you are able to race them.

Aggro Loam
Extremely Favorable. Expect to win about 90% pre board and 75% post. The only thing they can do to win is open with Leyline and drop turn 1 Chalice but since the addition of Wispmare Chalice no longer stops our answer for Leyline! A lot of builds don't play Leyline anymore but if they are running Leyline I would go: -1 Dread Return, -1 Sage, -1 Careful Study, -1 Breakthrough, +4 Wispmare. Therapy for whatever would hurt the most usually Engineered Explosives.

Landstill
Extremely Favorable. Expect to win 80% pre and post board. Depending on how much hate they have this matchup is usually very easy. Just watch for Stifles and SB the same as Thresh. Deed can be problematic but usually isn't enough to stop Dredge!

Enchantress
Amazingly Unfavorable. Seriously, expect to win maybe 10% of the time pre and post board. Even with Wispmare it just awful. Everything they have just dominates us. Cabal Therapy Elephant Grass usually. The only chance of winning this matchup is going super fast or catching them off guard with a Wispmare then a combo out!

Armageddon Stax and Lands!/Eternal Garden
Very Unfavorable. I grouped these together because they are both hideous matchups and employ the same game plan but are thankfully not very common in my meta! Expect to win maybe 15% of the time and that is being generous pre and post board. Garden is the worst matchup of all since they run Crop Rotation into Glacial Chasm and ..... we have no answers for Glacial Chasm. Stax has prison effects and 3Spheres backed up by land destruction. The only plan is to go super fast. Therapy usually names Ghostly Prison but that won't be to relevant. Board something like -4 Careful Study and +3 Chain of Vapor, +1 Wispmare.

slobad23
11-18-2008, 05:13 PM
"In short, this build is just as fast but can't win on turn 1 and is infinitely more consistent.

It is just as fast, only not as fast... - I laughed so hard I "lol"ed a little :smile:

I think the term infinitely may be a little strong

Surely this deck does not deserve its own thread? the changes... *change* is such a small one - its like making a new MUC thread because you take out back to basics and run some no basic lands...

There is not anywhere near as significant a difference as there is between TES and FT which obviously, though both storm combo, are very different in the way they implement getting to 10 storm

Waikiki
11-18-2008, 05:15 PM
Have you tried out a fetchable manabase?

Jaynel
11-18-2008, 05:32 PM
This really just makes absolutely no sense to me. Why would you want to give up one of the most attractive parts of Ichorid - winning the first game quickly? In the postboard games, you can side out LED and Deep Analysis if you want a more consistent deck to fight hate. Look at EPIC Painter for example: the deck runs a cheap combo to win an easy game one, then boards into a better aggro-control deck with Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker.

If you're really bent on this idea, I think running 4 Cabal Therapy, 4 Unmask, and 4 Dread Return (because, you know, you feel it's rather crucial) would make a lot of sense. I also think running a large dude, such as Empyrial Archangel, Simic Sky Swallower, or Akroma, Angel of Fury, instead of Flame-Kin Zealot could be beneficial. Running a slower version of Ichorid means Landstill, Dreadstill, and Thresh get Engineered Explosives active by the time you get to combo. Zombie tokens rather fragile compared to big guys that are hard to remove.

BreathWeapon
11-18-2008, 10:35 PM
I'd seriously consider replacing Breakthrough for Brainstorm, altho' your deck becomes more reliant on Putrid Imp and Tireless Tribe, being able to draw cards with out discarding your hand gives you a lot of resiliency vs Tormod's Crypt.

I'm not a fan of replacing Thugs with Blasts, you're pigeon holing yourself into the when the main point of cutting LED is to get away from the combo to begin with. Also, running 15 lands and not running Tolarian Winds just seems wasteful, I'd be all over Tolarian Winds and Mystical Tutor at that rate.

Pinder
11-18-2008, 11:05 PM
Also, running 15 lands and not running Tolarian Winds just seems wasteful


I have to agree here. I ran a Friggorid port way back when after it showed up in Extended (before NarcoBridge), and Tolarian Winds is simply the nut high in any version of the deck that doesn't rely on LED. It pretty much does everything you want to do. I can only imagine that it would get much, much more powerful when you have NarcoBridge, as it allows you to win the turn you cast Tolarian Winds as opposed to the turn after.



and Mystical Tutor

Not this, though. Running Tolarian Winds is enough, IMO.

Pulp_Fiction
11-18-2008, 11:25 PM
@slobad23: Trying to describe how a Dredge deck plays is hard. Its one of the weirdest decks ever in Magic since it wins by discarding its hand and milling itself and it forces your opponent to NOT play discard spells and destroy their own creatures .....

@:Waikiki: Fetches should not be played because they open the deck up to a premature Stifle which could greatly affect the deck, plus there is no B/W/U land that you can fetch and it is vital to have access to any color mana at any point.

@BreathWeapon: I agree on Brainstorm but if your hand consists of: land, land, dredger, dredger, brainstorm, dreturn, and bridge Careful Study would be just superior. Brainstorm would most likely slow the deck up a LOT and personally I prefer Careful Study because generally your opponent Crypts you as soon as you drop a GGT into the yard to prevent the crazy shenanigans from happening. Careful Study is a serious bait spell. Brainstorm would be fantastic if it made you discard.

Tolarian Winds is run in some of the extended builds (a little more than half I think) but it is a lot like a super vulnerable Breakthrough. Extended does not have to play around stuff like Daze and Winds also opens you up to Spell Snare as well. Breakthrough is so good since it can evade Chalice as well as the previous mentioned counters. Now it could be a SB option against opposing storm combo or anything that may drop Turn 1 Chalice (worst play this deck could possibly see)@1. It is a near guarnteed second turn kill. You have to be REALLY unlucky to not win after this resolves. I briefly tested it when I ran Dredge in Extended and found it to be unnecessary with Breakthroughs and everything else. But it could certainly have potential in the SB.

BreathWeapon
11-19-2008, 12:43 AM
Comparing Brainstorm to Careful Study doesn't make sense when you're considering replacing Breakthrough, while Brainstorm has its limitations and it's not as explosive as Breakthrough, I find LEDless Ichorid's strength is in using the creature based discard outlets and cantrips to play around the "all in" mentality that gets smashed by Tormod's Crypt and co.

Also, you're seriously overrating Breakthrough, even off the Breakthrough + LED + DA chains the deck wont always "go off." I find the whole combo mentality overrated, you beat control and aggro-control regardless with DDD game 1, the rest of the deck is to play around hate and speed up against Goblins and co.

Piceli89
11-22-2008, 07:55 AM
I began to appreciate this deck ( the non -LED version), and i want ask you: have someone taken into account lotus petal, instead of the additional 3 "crappy " lands ( i refer to the tarnished and the undiscovered, which are awful, but the only stuff avaiable to get golden mana.. glimmervoid would die, and forbidden orchard is just cotnroproductive with the aim of the deck)?
I think that lotus petal would give that bit of "explosivesness " lost because of the lack of LED, and would seriously help us pumping the mana a little bit higher to carry on the developing of the combo- many times i found myself compelled to wait another turn just because I didn't have ebough mana to cast another careful study and / or breakthrough, and it was a pity to waste another turn and risk getting crypted/extirpated.
Another thing abut the first list posted: I know that darkblast can really be good, but in my opinion it's not true that dredging 3 or dredging 4 makes almost no difference. It makes an enormous difference. In that extra card , you can find an ichorid or a bridge, or even dread return or whatever else. And i think that the black creatures count with darkblast ( and without golgari thug) wuld be really too low ( only the stinkweed imps - which sometimes you dredge, not having the trolls- and the putrid imp... 8 creatures-because you usually don't want to remove ichorid for another ichorid- is really low). I prefer golgari thug, both for dredging more, and being a creature.
However, i really like the inclusion of tireless tribe. That card's a bomb to stop for a bit aggro ( in particular goblins, where it can function as a blocker and so "substituing " the slowing role darkblast would have here ), and it's almost good as putrid imp, the only difference of course is given by the fact that it's not black and so not pitchable to ichorid. But i really like the 7- discarders suite, it gives this deck that feature of consistency and " not all-in-the-graveyard-in-a-row" which allows to control better the game and face threats sided in ( or maindecked).

DeathwingZERO
11-22-2008, 08:48 AM
I flat out never liked Tolarian Winds. The only time I thought it was useful was when I had a grip of dredgers, and the two mana open plus hitting them with a discard spell to see their hand. Otherwise, it's no different than relying on Breakthrough + LED (explosive but high risk and little reward). Yes it's got great potential and is instant speed, but the focus of this version is "dredge when I want, win when I want". There's no need to pack much more than Careful Study, Coliseum and other "slow" draws. I actually tweaked my list to include more draw outlets than most versions, in order to make for more consistent use of dredging, rather than doing 2/3-for-1s off single spells.

While my list is still closer to the "original" theme than this one, it's still an LEDless version, and I personally still favor it greatly. LED insanity is just unwarranted, the low percentage of turn 1 wins with that deck while still packing any concept of protection (being nearly completely reliant on Unmask in order to protect going off, for example) just seemed useless to me. There's nothing short of Storm combo that you NEED to beat that quickly, and even the standard lists of Ichorid pack it in a majority of the time to TES and it's kin.

The thing that people seem to not understand with this concept is that it plays VERY differently from standard lists. We don't go all in, ever. There's no point. A majority of the games knocking them down with flying deathtouch (and recurring) 1/2s, hasted recurring 3/1s, the occasional stack of 2/2 tokens and the 2/2 flyers that can't block, it's a swarm mentality. The deck lives and dies by total war. This IS Ichorid, not dredge. It's consistency is the fact that it can offer more slots for protection, more potential for draw, and more reliable resources, while still having a turn 3 average (a mere half a turn slower than LED/Breakthrough based lists).

While I would still run my list over this one, I have taken note of some changes I could see being far more useful. I'm definitely going to look into swapping out the Thugs for Darkblast, as it's got some great use. Jailer, Fanatic, Lackey and even mirror match Moebas, Ichorids and PImps all deserve recognition here. I may or may not cut Unmask completely, and if I did I'd be interested in upping the land count and consider testing Tribe and Wispmare.

I would greatly consider finding slots for Street Wraith, however. In LEDless lists, he's an absolute MVP. Uncounterable, life loss is of little consequence, fuels Ichorid recursions, and instant speed.

For another concept I can list my latest run with the deck later on, which went almost completely U/B in order to fit in a couple basics to absolutely dodge LD hate. I wouldn't say the list is any better, but my personal style and local metagame has had heavy influence in how it's tuned.

For now though, I need sleep.

Pulp_Fiction
11-22-2008, 01:45 PM
@Piceli89: Lotus Petal is certainly an option but I have never tested it. However, playing Lotus Petal does open the deck up a little more to Stifle/Trickbind (which is why I don't like running fetchlands also). You could effectively win on turn 1 with land, PImp, Petal, GGT, Breakthrough, GGT, random card. How often this would happen I have no idea, but it is interesting. The discard effect from Undiscovered Paradise is barely ever relevant and taking a Lightning Bolt from a land in order to cast something is awful but the fact that they are permanently in play is why I would most likely run them over Lotus Petal. One time use mana is good for acceleration but requires that semi-all-in kind of effect. With 15 lands you can reliably cast much needed spells (continuously) and if you already used a Lotus Petal it would be VERY difficult to cast a Stinkweed or something which really does have relevance. As far as Darkblast goes, I love the card and would never consider Thug in its place, I have won so many games being able to remove creatures and stall things out thats its ridiculous. There is no correct choice between Thug and Darkblast, its all preference, but Darkblast gives the deck a spectacular resiliency to suprise cards like Jailer.

@DeathwingZERO: I have never liked Unmask in the deck, I tried it (in testing only) and never found excess black cards in my hand that I was willing to remove from the game so I simply don't like it. Do you have an updated list of your Street Wraith Version?

@BreathWeapon: I tried out Tolarian Winds the other day and really disliked the card. Now I remember why I didn't play it in extended. Its those hands with 1x land that are soo good and you look at Tolarian Winds as your draw spell and think ... "I only have one land in my hand and won't be drawing ever again". The card is amazing and if no thought is put into what are dredging you could easily deck yourself after it resolves. But still, since it requires 2 mana and gets hideous the more you mulligan I would not run it. Running only 1cc draw spells is the way to go as you avoid Spell Snare and oftentimes you are able to play around Daze with extra mana, neither of which you can do with Winds.

Piceli89
11-22-2008, 02:53 PM
@Pulp fiction: why lotus petal would give access to stifle/trickbind ? A mana ability can't be stifled/trickbinded. Or am i missing something else ?
However, for the darkblast, i consider that thinking to use darkblast not as a dredger, but as an effective spell would slow the deck to much. It's ok that this one is a more "controllish" version, but let's don't forget that we are not a control deck. At a certain point, you must go off, and i think that stopping nd beginning to darkblast would slow the im of the deck too much. If you fear pesky jailers /fanatics, side in chain of vapor, but it's better not to abuse too much of darkblast as a "spell", IMHO.
@the guy ho suggested street wraith: Street wraith is fantastic, i used it and allowed me to begin dredging from the first turn, but i really don't find a room for it, it would require cutting something else and the list Pulp fiction posted is really good and balanced. WOuld you mind to post your own version ? It could be interesting.

Altair
11-22-2008, 06:50 PM
Thank you Pulp for starting this thread and taking time to give all the explanations. I also prefer the Non-LED based version.

I use 3 Petal Lotus instead of the "crappy" lands (like Piceli says). It gives the turn 1 win (land, petal, breakthrough, dredger, Putid) and it does not blast you when you use it. I definitely recommand you to try it.
I would never prefer to have a second land instead in my opening hand as two mana first turn and one mana (or 2) second turn seems to always be enough.
Having it without a land does not happen often and may still be keepable anyway.

I play the last breakthrough instead of the third tireless tribe. To compensate,
I tend to use my careful studies a little more as a discarder than as a mini breakthrough.
Currently you have 14 ways to discard a dredger (putrid imp, tireless tribe, carefull study, cabal therapy) and only 7 ways to draw (breakthrough and careful study).
Usually, to go combo you want one of each. So going 13 discard and 8 drawer would increase your chances to have one of each.
For example a hand with Land+dredger+(careful study or putrid Imp)+breakthrough is better than Land+dredger+(careful study or putrid Imp)+tireless tribe. This is even truer if your opening hand further comprises a Lous Petal.

I play Yosei, the morning star instead of Flame-Kin Zealot. I think it let you win more often as you may attack with more Ichorids and with more tokens one turn later. Yosei is better in that build that in the LED-version because the situation where dread returning the FKZ would not be enough to kill will arise more often without the Deep analysis to dredge more. It is not exactly the large dude that Jaynel talks about but it is a little closer.

I play one more cabal therapy and one less narcoameoba.
When I have two bridges in the graveyard, I prefer to have 1 putrid Imp and 1 narcoamoeba in play and 1 cabal therapy in the yard than 1 putrid Imp and 2 narcoamoeba in play.
I also prefer to have one cabal therapy in my opening hand than one narcoamoeba.
This should be even more relevant in your deck because with 7 putrid imps you will be even more likely to have 3 creatures in play.

I do play the Golgari Thug instead of Darkblast. I will test it. I agree with you that it is never difficult to feed the ichorids but I am concern with the dredge 3 instead of 4.

Quite a few differences but our deck lists have the same number of mana sources (15) of dredgers (11) of Drawers/Discarders (14) and of cards to be "put in the yard" (20).

I have tested the Tolarian winds (+2 instead of the 2 tireless tribes). I agree with you: it is not optimal, even in my built where I can play it turn 1.
A hand with petal+land+dredger+tolarian wind is not the auto-win you may think of at first sight; the 25 cards in the yard will not always comprise 1 dread return, 1 cephalid sage, 1 cabal therapy, 2 narcoamoebas, and 2 bridges. And you will find yourself topdecking with 4 dredgers in hand.

Street Wraith is definitely better here than in the LED deck because we will Mulligan less often. However I do not see which card to replace and I am also curious to see the list of Deathwing.

Does anybody have tested Eternal Witness instead of Cephalid Sage ?

DeathwingZERO
11-22-2008, 10:30 PM
Eternal Witness is significantly less busted in this version than in LED lists, simply because they employ LED. Another thing to consider with Witness is being able to recur the burn that Parcher's list has been doing as of late, another addition we don't really have much reason to abuse.

I'm still not sold on Lotus Petal. I did significant testing with it, and it just seemed sub-par. The later the game gets, the more reason I wanted permanent mana sources, not temporary ones. And the first turn kill (in both versions) is so absolute in it's necessity to dredge the right cards that I just flat out disregard it as an option in most cases.

Interestingly enough, the inclusion of Street Wraiths to my LEDless build DID give me back the option to do the turn one win, but it's just not worth it. I almost always preferred setting up for the turn 2 kill, giving myself more access and abuse with Therapy (and dredge at opponents EoT or my upkeep after triggering Ichorids). If in the 3-5% or so chance that I can pull the turn one without ripping my hand, I'll do it, but other than that, turn two is almost always guaranteed anyways.

I will admit that my U/B list I was recently testing with did make use of 4 Polluted Deltas. This was mainly because I considered a manabase of

4 Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Coliseum
2 Swamp
1 Island

To be significant enough in balancing out colors. With very little need to bounce between black or blue in the same turn (black is always a first turn run for discard, blue turn two and beyond for draw, etc) I found this to be both consistent and stable. If of course you would run into decks that can hinder the Deltas (Stifle/Trickbind), swap them out for Gemstone Mine or City, with minimal drawback.

I am also still thinking Unmask is becoming unnecessary in this build. Very little actually leaves the hand in higher numbers than 1 for 1, with the exception of Breakthrough and Study, and the control over what is discarded means it's much easier to play around game one hate, rather than having to rip it out of their hand.

I'll get a hold of my buddy and get my list together and post it later on tonight. It'll look strange, but I can always explain choices as the questions come up.

Altair
11-23-2008, 07:17 AM
Eternal Witness is significantly less busted in this version than in LED lists, simply because they employ LED. Another thing to consider with Witness is being able to recur the burn that Parcher's list has been doing as of late, another addition we don't really have much reason to abuse.

I fully agree. I have never tested Eternal Witness but everytime I dread return a Cephalid Sage I ask to myself: "would EW be any better here?" and the answer is always no. The possibility to draw 4 with Breakthrough is just overkill as drawing 3 with Sage is always enough.


I'm still not sold on Lotus Petal. I did significant testing with it, and it just seemed sub-par. The later the game gets, the more reason I wanted permanent mana sources, not temporary ones. And the first turn kill (in both versions) is so absolute in it's necessity to dredge the right cards that I just flat out disregard it as an option in most cases.

Lotus Petal does not just allow to kill turn 1 instead of turn 2 but also to kill turn 2 instead of turn 3. The pace it gives helps to win faster game 1 and to play antihate sooner in the other games (such as playing and flashbacking cabal therapy on putrid imp on the first turn).
I do not feel the need to have more than 2 lands, even in the late game. If you are really concerned by your number of lands in the late game, what about playing one dakmor salvage and two Petals?


Interestingly enough, the inclusion of Street Wraiths to my LEDless build DID give me back the option to do the turn one win, but it's just not worth it. I almost always preferred setting up for the turn 2 kill, giving myself more access and abuse with Therapy (and dredge at opponents EoT or my upkeep after triggering Ichorids). If in the 3-5% or so chance that I can pull the turn one without ripping my hand, I'll do it, but other than that, turn two is almost always guaranteed anyways.
[...]
I'll get a hold of my buddy and get my list together and post it later on tonight. It'll look strange, but I can always explain choices as the questions come up.

Eager to see how you fit the street wraith in!

DeathwingZERO
11-23-2008, 09:58 AM
"LEDfree Ichorid"

Graveyard abusers: 12
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge
4 Therapy

Dredgers: 11
4 Troll
4 STImp
3 Thug/Darkblast (will be testing this)

Combo: 8
4 Narcomoeba
2 Dread Return
1 Sage
1 Flame Kin

Draw: 10
4 Careful Study
2 Breakthrough
4 Street Wraith

Discard: 4
4 PImp

Mana: 15
4 Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Swamp
1 Island


Sideboard:

4 Mystical Tutor
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Pithing Needle
3 Unmask

One thing I noticed about the build not abusing LED is that there's far more freedom in how you want to get to victory. Recurring Ichorids, FKZ/zombie combo, or straight up flying weenies all provide useful outs.

I initially had the Unmasks in the main, but when going up to the 15 lands, I decided to throw them into the board in case I really needed them. With the inclusion of Street Wraith to push first turn draw potential "spells" up to ten, pitching something black wasn't ever a problem.

The U/B concentration is strictly for being able to work under pressure against the manabase. In my meta there's a number of decks tuned to abuse nonbasics, whether it be B2B, PoP, Wastelands, etc....I just decided throwing a couple basics in with the fetches to be well worth it. Two mana is pretty much optimal, and 3 will cast everything crucial in the deck short of hardcasting Dread, so I decided that would be the correct number of basics to employ.

The sideboard is solely there to get past whatever permanent based hate (especially enchantment and artifacts) the opponent decides to toss at me. With the ability to draw instantly (and free) via Wraith, EoT Mystical Tutor is a godsend. Even without using Wraith, Careful Study and Coliseum are still viable options, because the hand size is usually fairly large. Needles are still being tested, but so far I've enjoyed them being able to preemptively answer things like Keg, Deed, and EE.

One fear I had was the semi-present Chalice of the Void, but I found that them putting it down at one charge typically either required them to be playing a relatively "slow" deck (Stompy or Stax variants), or ones I could simply DDD through and attempt to get to as much mana as possible in case Trinisphere hit. It's surprising how little the deck packed with 1cc spells cares about Chalice.

As for the small amount of permanent based discard, I've found that to be of little consequence. My opening hand doesn't require seeing PImp, he just makes the first turn play an automatic one. Between Careful Study, Breakthrough, and PImp, I have plenty of options in the first turn to throw something away, and from there use my draw or Wraiths to punch out the dredging. In goldfishing, the deck never failed to average a turn three kill, and through various stages of testing, it's still been able to claim the ever ridiculous "I win against 90% of the field game one".

If I were to put in the Tribes, it would require a return to the "old" manabase of Gemstones, City and some other gold lands tossed in (I was actually considering Undiscovered Paradise, a la TES style, which worked out pretty well surprisingly), and probably knocking down single copies of things like Moeba, Ichorid, and a land (to 14), to fit either three or four of them in. I'll definitely be keeping my options open there, as I like the idea of using them to chump heavy hitters like Goyf and such, while still keeping the discard outlet alive.

Piceli89
11-23-2008, 01:04 PM
@Deathwingzero: i tested your list and it meddles me a lot, but how do you find yourself with only 2x of breakthrough ? i always thought that it was the key card which granted the deck to throw half itself in one shot. Am i wrong ? perhaps i still haven't understood the aim of the deck sufficiently, but breakthrough seemed to me to be very "decisive " for the development of the combo.
For what concerns the lotus petal , believe me, they really do push this "underpowered " version of the deck to that bit of explosiveness which allows it to be as fast as Led-with version, just keeping its consistency.
Testing your list, i also began to think that tireless tribe isn't required anymore, but maybe i got lucky in playtesting and i'll soon change my mind. However, would exactly would you cut for 3x- which is the right quantity, i guess- ?
Narcomoeba is necessary in 4x, ichorid too (at least, almost), maybe a street wraith would be cuttable. What do you guys think ?


EDIT: after some testing(goldfishing), i came to the conclusion that 2x of tireless tribe is required, it would increase the count of discarders-outlets to 6, which isn't bad, and would allow to dredge turn 1 with SW more easily. 2x because i don't want to divert the nature of the deck too much, the list by deathwing is good enough.
I only wish it contained a maindecked alternate win condition.. i really appreciate akroma (the white one ) for being a good blocker and a furious, immediate beater...

DeathwingZERO
11-23-2008, 08:51 PM
If I were to throw in only 2 Tribes, I'd cut 1 Ichorid and 1 Moeba. Neither are necessary for the deck's function as a 4-of, so cutting those back wouldn't be a problem at all. To include 3, I would cut back to 14 lands, as cutting anything else starts to get into interfering with the strategic "core" of the deck, draw/discard/dredge.

To be honest, I cut Narcomoeba back to a 3 of a while ago. I only just put it back in when I finalized my list last night, after cutting the 3x Unmask to the SB. If they were still in the main, a few cards would have had to change.

With the addition of Lotus Petal, the deck would have to change a lot, and in my opinion it goes back to being more unstable (though still less than LED lists). First, I'd have to up the count of Breakthrough, which is in my opinion the single worst card in the deck currently. I got away from the LED lists because of Breakthrough and LED, simply because I saw no point in ditching my hand entirely without protection. If Breakthrough resolved, that's great, I would most likely win there. If it didn't, however, I would burn for 3 (unless I was lucky enough to be holding a DA), and have no cards in hand, and out a turn. "Explosiveness" comes with a drawback, and that drawback is relying more on what your opponent is playing.

This is also the main reason why Breakthrough is only a 2-of. I rely far more on Careful Study, PImp and Street Wraith to get the engine running, and Coliseum to be my explosiveness. The other reason is that it's significantly weaker with no LED and DA. The three cards worked together so well that cutting back one often severely crippled the power of the other two. DA was in my opinion the weakest of the cards in LED Ichorid, and upon cutting that it basically proved to me that LED was only good if I had Breakthrough or Coliseum in play. I don't like situational (potential) ball-busters, so I ditched LED and knocked down Breakthrough, to keep a little oomph when needed.

In goldfishing and testing, I noticed that I was putting far more pressure on the opponent through Ichorid and other creatures, as opposed to zombie hordes. This lead me to believe that there's no need to be explosive if there's not as much need for the combo to resolve. When you've got recurring creatures via Ichorid, Thug (hitting the yard and throwing a Moeba on top of the deck is simply ridiculous, and makes for retarded recurring blockers), and dredgers able to come back on their own, the combo aspect of the deck is just a nice "win now" feature.

Hope this gives a little more insight into how I pilot the deck, and reasoning behind some choices over others.

EDIT: If I were to personally throw in a singleton Dread Return target to be a "fattie" that is good to use, I'd stick with the old manabase and use Sundering Titan, or with the either manabase and go with Angel of Despair. Titan is just a nuisance that Goyfs and the like will never get by, and blocks all but 2 damage from a Dreadnought, and Angel for decks packing Elephant Grass, etc....so you can push through the army. Akroma is nice, but she has no utility. If there's a reason I need an alternate win condition from Troll, it's because I can't attack or I need to balance the resource battle (like Titan vs Survival/Rock builds, for example).

Piceli89
11-24-2008, 09:53 AM
@Deathwingzero: i'm testing intensively your list, just with 3 lotus petal and the golden manabase instead of the U/B lands, and it performs well. I changed my mind again (even if in few times i had no discarder so i had to wait for 8 cards in hand to begin dredging), perhaps tribes aren't required anymore, also since to put them, it should be necessary to cut something important ( ichorid or moebas), and i can really swear that ichorid really does win games alone, even more than the zomies army. A fast ichorid hittins since the second turn, well fueled by the wraiths and the imps,leaves the opponent with such a pressure on his head that he's compelled to quickly face our race ( good rhyme here).. and not all the decks can do that.
I'm still a little unconvinced on the 2x of breakthrough, but it performs well. Cephalid coliseum is far better and its ability can be "controlled" much more than breakthrough, which is almost always a "all in".
I wanna ask how do you" circumvent" the obstacles of this deck since the first games ( but also after Sb), especially extirpate. That card is a pain in the ass, and often extirpating a dredger ( GGT most of all) can really blow away our game. How do you deal with an opponent that you know plays extirpate ?Which are the "tricks " to deceive him?
Another thing i'd like to know is whether the deck can restart quickly after a tormod's crypt/ relic of progenitus ( the 2nd ability, obv) has hit. It doesn't always happens that i find pithing needle in the opening hand with a land and it doesn't get countered... In reality, it never happens :laugh:
Last thing / (sorry if i abuse of your patience, but i'm still quite new of the deck and so i've got to learn a bit more): how YOUR version of the deck performs against threshold and, in generally, blue based aggro-control decks ? Does street wraith really give that uncounterable boost which is fundamental to be fast and go off in spite of counters, or the deck still requires passing through some careful studies and breakthroughs to combo out completely ? I ask you this because i fear that a good player could know what to counter/stifle ( the "draw" tools) and leave us with a hand full of useless dredgers while its fucking tarmogoyf smashes our face..

Dark_Cynic87
11-24-2008, 10:49 AM
As a person who plays both ichorid and lists that play Extirpate and have other Ichorid players in my meta, it's my opinion that whoever extirpated your GGT is a complete and total moron. Not to mention that if you are playing against a deck that runs Extirpate (Wish-Still varients and some storm combo are the only things I'm really aware of that play them), you should have sided in Chalice of the Void anyway.

I think in a non-LED Ichorid list, Tireless Tribe will always be a necessary element as there's that little thing called Pithing Needle.

I don't understand the use of Petal. It sounds horrible, and we tested it in LED versions and found it to be absolutely terrible there. I can't see a difference that would make it better here. In fact, it seems that with 15 lands it would be even more useless.

Pce,

--DC

Piceli89
11-24-2008, 11:13 AM
As a person who plays both ichorid and lists that play Extirpate and have other Ichorid players in my meta, it's my opinion that whoever extirpated your GGT is a complete and total moron. Not to mention that if you are playing against a deck that runs Extirpate (Wish-Still varients and some storm combo are the only things I'm really aware of that play them), you should have sided in Chalice of the Void anyway.

I think in a non-LED Ichorid list, Tireless Tribe will always be a necessary element as there's that little thing called Pithing Needle.

I don't understand the use of Petal. It sounds horrible, and we tested it in LED versions and found it to be absolutely terrible there. I can't see a difference that would make it better here. In fact, it seems that with 15 lands it would be even more useless.

Pce,

--DC


Sided in chalice of the void against extirpate ? to set it @1 and ruin myself ? :D I usually side pithing needle against decks usually packing crypt in side, but i've got nothing against extirpate. And that card is really played by many decks in my meta, sometimes even MD: the rock, pikula, thresh ugb.. And the one who extirpates a dredger will be a moron, yes, but it slows my combo, and buys the time sufficient to get his hand full of counters.

Tireless tribe is great, but i really can't find room for it. Cutting an ichorid and a narcomoeba would mean losing a bit of the consistency of the combo ( it would be more difficult to find out moebas dredging and reanimating an ichorid), and it's frustrating to lose because i don't find a moeba.
Any suggestions for a list packing tribe and still keeping the combo fully running ?

Lotus petal is here to give the deck that bit of explsiveness it has not without LED. It acts as a boost so it's possible to activate a coliseum and breakthroughing in the same turn, or other similar tricks. However, this is a personal taste of mine.
It's obvious that in LED lists it's useless, the mana there is still enough. In this list, it must "supply" the lack of LED.
Running 12 lands and 3 petals seems fine to me, of course you can't agree.

Dark_Cynic87
11-24-2008, 11:28 AM
Depending on how afraid of Extirpate you are, you can play around your own Chalice @ 1 just as you would an opponent's. Breakthrough is easy to use around a Chalice, and it's not like they aren't going to be looking for a way to get rid of it so they CAN extirpate.

I can see using 12x Lands and 3x Petal, it just feels too risky as 4x of your lands disappear (mines), which means that 7x of your mana sources aren't permanent. If I'm playing a Non-LED version, I'd rather go as consistant as possible. If I want explosiveness, I'll stick with the LED version.

No suggestions yet on the Tribes, but I can say I would NEVER drop below 4x Ichorid. I'd feel free to drop a Narc, but other than that I would need to think a minute. Do you have a list to work with? That would help a lot.

Pce,

--DC

Piceli89
11-24-2008, 11:36 AM
Dark Cynic, i post you the list I'm currently running on, it's very similar to deathwingzero's one:

Maindeck-60

4 Cephalid coliseum
4 gemstone mine
4 city of brass

4 putrid imp
4 street wraith
4 GGT
3 golgari thug
4 StImp
1 FKZ
1 sage
4 ichorid
4 narcomoeba

4 careful study
2 breakthrough
3 lotus petal
4 BFB
4 cabal therapy
2 dread return ( i feel it should be 3x...)

sideboard (still sucks, reasoning on it):
4 pithing needles
4 chain of vapor
1 darkblast ( to be sided against fanatics or jailers)
1 akroma, angel of wrath ( could be angel of despair but i love this chick)
2 ancient grudge
3 ray of revelation

As you see, no COTV in here

Now, the problem is what to cut for 2-3x tireless tribes. I want the deck to be consistent in its combo, NOT suffer the usual blue hate (counters)-so street wraith should be a 4-ofs, since it's only stifable, be fast enough to pull a turn 2-3 victory, and possibly to fight well against the usual SB hate shit.
Is it possible to have all these features in only one deck ?

Joe_C
11-24-2008, 02:26 PM
has anyone ever built a list that ran magus of the bazaar? I tried an incarnation of it on MWS that I built, and it royally kicked ass. Although chrome mox would be a necessity and magus has a huge target on his head, but its really deal with him or he will kill you. rough list(dont remember exactly what I played on MWS)

4 chrome mox
4 magus of the bazaar
4 ichorid
4 bridge
4 stinkweed imp
4 golgari grave troll
4 narcomoeba
4 cabal therapy
1 flame kin
1 cephalid sage
4 unmask(needed if running magus)
3 dread return
4 putrid imp
2 breakthrough
1 tolarian winds

4 cephalid coliseum
4 gemstone mine
4 city of brass

Pulp_Fiction
11-24-2008, 02:45 PM
Against someone who you know is running Extirpate just SB out cards that you know will be devastating if they Extirpate them. For example: against Extirpate I usually go -1 GGT because that is the usual first choice (slows the deck a lot) and when they Extirpate it they only get 3, same with Ichorid, if you play 4 go -1 to minimize impact of the card. Never side out Bridges since that is how you win. Then I just side out 1 Cephalid Sage (if playing 2) and 1 random card (usually Dread Return going down to 2). Against Extirpate this is where your 15 lands begin to shine. Being able to hardcast Stinkweeds to stall and swing with 2/2 PImps is how you will win on occassion.

Playing a deck like this you should have no reservations about taking a mull down to 5 or even 4; so against Extirpate you can just mull into Cabal Therapy and play it naming Extirpate.

I like playing the "3rd" DR target but I much prefer the 2nd Cephalid Sage since you just win. Sundering Titan is cute but it can be met with Executioner's Capsule (quite common in my meta as of late) and StP, so for these reasons I don't run fatties. Just winning is the best plan. Now, Vindicate Angel is good but you will be siding it out most games and the same goes with Woodfall Primus who is probably the best fatty since he has persist and kills 2 enchantments instead of 1.

I used to run Ancient Grudge and Ray of Revelation in the SB but they were useless. The only reason to run Ancient Grudge is if you meta has a lot of Stiflenought in it. Otherwise, run Wispmare and Ingot Chewer to deal with artifacts and enchantments. Both avoid Chalice which is vital and can be Dread Returned late game if it comes to that.

@bruenor: Cutting important cards down to a bare minimum and putting a creature who dies to every form of removal is a really bad idea. The reason this deck works if is that it really isn't reliant on much of anything, just dredge cards. And playing a creature that will immediately die when cast (think Dark Confidant) is not a good plan. Why are you are running 4x Unmask and 4x Chrome Mox?? You will not have that many pointless cards in you hand to remove!

frogboy
11-24-2008, 02:49 PM
For example: against Extirpate I usually go -1 GGT because that is the usual first choice (slows the deck a lot) and when they Extirpate it they only get 3

Aren't Dread Returns, Narcomoebas, and Bridge From Below all infinitely better to Extirpate than Grave-Trolls?

Pulp_Fiction
11-24-2008, 03:02 PM
This always happens to me. Everytime, I think the goal is to slow the dredge player up enough to drop big threats. It doesn't work very well but it always happens. Bridge From Below is next. I don't think Extirpating GGT is the wrong play but I think they should certainly hold off until they can hit Ichorid, Bridge, or DR.

Piceli89
11-24-2008, 04:07 PM
Confirming what pulp fiction has said, I just got TRASHED by UGB thresh by 2 extirpates , both in g2 and in g3- along with tormod's crypt. Yeah, "because we love to hate ichorid." Well, i really can't find how to go around that fucking card.

DeathwingZERO
11-24-2008, 08:57 PM
Aren't Dread Returns, Narcomoebas, and Bridge From Below all infinitely better to Extirpate than Grave-Trolls?

They won't hit combo pieces because without dredgers you can't go deep enough to kill them anyways. Playing against some Extirpate players around here, they listed in order:

1-Troll
2-Stinkweed
3-Bridge
4-Therapy
5-Ichorid

I'd say that's a pretty good list of "must hits". Troll and Stinkweed obviously fuel the deck, and are must-hit's asap. If they knock out Bridge, your Dread Returns are already useless, and Narco's are just silly little 1/1 fliers. The only lists I've seen locally that had Extirpate also had other types of backup (Fairie Maccabre, Crypt, etc), so hitting one or two of these things is typically GG if they can apply pressure.

Aside from the obvious Enchantress and Lands/decksthatplayshitlandslikeGlacialChasm.dec, I'd say RGB Rock and Survival lists are hardest to run against pre and post board because of their multiple answers both MD and SB.

As far as trying to fight Extirpate, I agree that Chalice is the best answer. It also knocks out opponent's that bring in Needle against your important discarders: Coliseum and PImp/Tribes. My 4 slots of Needle will sometimes swap over to Chalice, simply because having 15 lands and knowing an opponent plays Extirpate, I will keep from dredging just to nuke it turn 2 via CoTV. It doesn't savagely rape us, as you can go to 8 cards to discard and start using Wraith, Breakthrough, and Coliseum to keep the deck running, it's just slower that way.

And remember, even if Therapy is countered, you'll still get your tokens from flashing it back. So the combo can still run very well even under CoTV.

EDIT: Come to think of it, I'm seriously considering putting in the white splash now. Being able to cut back to 3-of's with Mystical Tutor, Chalice/Needle and Chain of Vapor would allow me to throw 3 Enlightened Tutors into the SB to fetch my artificial answers. The ability to put them into hand via Wraith, etc while keeping them safe on the topdeck until then seems worth it.

Nihil Credo
11-24-2008, 09:21 PM
Extirpating dredgers and Extirpating threats are two different game plans entirely, which is why I find that list almost useless.

The former just buys you some time by slowing down their engine, unless you're lucky enough to have two Extirpates and both targets available (and they don't have a Thug). I actually seldom do this because I don't play Extirpate in decks that can just win by grabbing tempo.

The latter actually aims at de-fanging Ichorid. But there's no specific priority list - Ichorid is too fast to allow that luxury. You hit what is most threatening at the moment, on the basis both of your opponent's graveyard and your own hand/board. Example - got sweeper? Hit Ichorids and Therapies. Got blockers and Swords? Hit Bridges. Got a turn 3 Propaganda? Hit Therapies and Dread Return.

frogboy
11-24-2008, 09:22 PM
If you hit Bridge, Return is only useless until they get to Narcomoeba, Ichorid, and whatever the original outlet was, at which point they tend to show you a large Grave-Troll. That plan is worse in formats with Plowshares, but I assume people will figure that out eventually and start running Titan or Red Akroma or something equally sick. If you hit Narcomoeba, it's hard to even get the engine started, but I guess you guys have more Ichorids so maybe that's not true? But there's only like eight other black cards so I dunno.

Dark_Cynic87
11-25-2008, 07:21 PM
Here's how I play against Ichorid with my Doomsday Fetchland Tendrils list, which sports 2x Extirpate and an Echoing Truth in the sideboard:

First Target: Ichorid. This makes them have to hit 3x Creatures in the form of Narcomoebas and PImps.

Second Target: Dread Return. They now can't combo or get lots of zombies to win. A much better target than Bridge.


Pce,

--DC

DeathwingZERO
11-25-2008, 07:41 PM
The deck has more Therapy than Dread Return in nearly all builds, so they could very well still hit you with a zombie horde, just next turn. Hitting Dread Return is not as strong as just getting rid of Bridge, especially if you have E.Truth to bounce the Troll that they are now stuck with reanimating, at 3-4 less creatures if you hit the Ichorid first.

Not to mention, if you hit Bridges, Dread Return is still practically useless if you can answer Troll. Chances are it'll be slightly larger than a Goyf (if they dredged enough, or support Wraith, otherwise chances are it'll be smaller), which gives probably 3 swings before you die. Since Ichorid can't come back to join them, they probably sacced Narcomoebas and their discard outlet to get it at that point.

In addition, anything named Goyf (or an easily maintainable 4+ toughness creature) takes the sting out of Ichorid as long as Bridges are gone. If they can't get zombies out of bringing them back, there's little to no point in wasting their dredge creatures to do so if there's any blockers to keep them from lethal.

Truth be told, I honestly can't think of the last time I was forced to reanimate a Troll to swing. It's such a ridiculous tempo advantage to Extirpate him and steal dredge's thunder than it is to allow it to keep digging them deeper.

Also, don't forget LEDless builds can cast every creature in the deck, because their 13-15 lands are (usually) permanent. So this means they can still plop down every creature they have at their disposal, so three isn't terribly hard to manage.

Again, it's all situational as Nihil pointed out, I'm just saying killing off Ichorid himself is a far worse plan overall than Bridge. Bridges being gone kills the combo aspect in a one-shot deal, nothing else stalls the deck nearly as fast as that, except the dredge engine itself. If you force them to rely solely on Ichorid beats, chances are they will run out of steam, or they will have to suffer pinging you for 3 damage a turn from one, and hope the rest of their creatures can seal the deal.

I will mention that my experience against Extirpate in particular is also primarily at the hands of 4c Landstill and RGB Rock, so typically they have plenty of answers to the non-combo kills already. If I see Extirpate, chances are I know I need to combo out, or suffer a gruelingly long match.

Dark_Cynic87
11-26-2008, 08:54 PM
Well, neither Storm combo or 4-c landstill sport Goyf, which is what I play, so that kills the argument at least for me. However, you make some compelling arguments as to what to hit with 'Pate, so I may try it differently. Thanks.

Pce,

--DC

DeathwingZERO
11-26-2008, 10:51 PM
Wait, you're playing a 4C Landstill list that's not using Goyf? Where did you get your list from, if I may ask? The two versions I've played against in my area both pack 4 Goyf in the main, because the deck has such a diverse number of card types on it's own that it's worth the slots.

Dark_Cynic87
11-27-2008, 07:10 PM
Well, it packs 4x Deed and 2-3x EE, so it's really not worth it. I tried it, but I'd rather have the Deeds than the goyf set. Maybe it's a preference thing, but I tried goyfs and they didn't do it for me. I prefer Decrees, Dragon, Elspeth and Factories to win.

It's Der's list, other than some VERY miniscule changes I've made.

Pce,

--DC

DeathwingZERO
11-28-2008, 12:40 AM
I suppose that's understandable. The reason that 4C Landstill that my buddy plays gives me so much trouble is the fact that Goyf is stupid fast because of my deck. He practically nullifies the Ichorid beatdown, because of both Goyf being larger than 3 toughness and manlands ruining my Bridges.

The fact that he's not alone with a multi-colored Landstill deck is one of the main reasons I put a 1-of Sundering Titan in the SB as a DR target. Nuking multiple branches of his already thinned manabase can very well turn the tide, especially by making StP useless and Goyf a wee lil baby in comparison.

Pulp_Fiction
12-02-2008, 03:13 PM
I really don't think Sundering Titan would have a much greater impact on the board than something like a 10/10 GGT. Either are most likely going to be sent farming and its true that one of the worst things this deck can do is see Goyfs and manlands backed up by Deeds and EE! But in this kind of situation don't swing but if you have a few Bridges in the yard reanimate Ichorid 2-3 times and Cabal Therapy them to clear the way for the beats while amassing an army of zombies and hardcasting a few Stinkweeds/random dork creatures but be careful to not over extend. I have never really had a serious problem with the Landstill matchup but it can be problematic. I would prefer to play against the versions with Goyfs in them cause that means they have less mass removal and more creatures (and possibly not Stifle)!

Piceli89
12-02-2008, 04:27 PM
So , i carried on testing the deck and it seems o perform well. In reality, I still do NOT manage to win g1 always, and several time i found myself compelled to fight until the last breath to win the first game. I tried the LED-version, and obviously it's more faster and can win g1 very easily, on average 1 turn before this version.
However, I still want to stick with LEDless version, but I'm really having hard life against Dreadstill. I mean, an average hand consists of land, 1-2 drawers, and graveyard cards(dredgers, bridges, moeba, kill-cards..). Knowing that my opponent plays counters, i could wait until i reach 8 cards in hand, but it would be an excessively slow plan. On the other side, if i try to resolve the "key" spells (careful study, breakthrough, even Pimp..), a wise opponent will "freely" daze/foW them, leaving me with 4-5 useless cards in hand and waiting to randomly draw something good. In this time, he'll be able to set his hand with brainstorm, to drop some fucking enormous tarmogoyfs to start the race, even to cast EE or deed.
How do i face this difficulty ? I don't have particular difficulties with the other decks (except for dragon stompy and prison ones, of course), but i really can't "grab the point" against these kind of decks, and, since it's fundamental for ichorid to win g1- because you know that the opponen't will have E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G against you in the sideboard afterwards, from jailers, to crypt, planar void and black leyline, and actually you WON'T know which among thse shit he will have in the sb ( they're all played cards, less or minus)-, i really should manage to win the first fight.
I know that my question is pretty lame and noobish, but i'd like to know from expert players who do are testing this list ( the LEDless one) how they go off in g1 without getting squeezed on a wall , among all the disruption existing in legacy. In spite of all, i'm really sticking with this deck, and don't want to leave it.

Pulp_Fiction
12-02-2008, 09:14 PM
Well, first thing to playing with the hate is always to anticipate the worst. Think of the worst thing your opponent could do to you at a given time and attempt to play around it (if that is likely). Games 2 and 3 against any opponent I know I am going to see Leyline or Crypt almost everytime so I mull into a hand that could handle those. With Dreadstill its the same way. If you are having a really hard time with the deck play Ancient Grudge in your SB to take out early Dreadnoughts and simply figure out which hands are good against the deck. Try to mull into a hand with Cabal Therapy in it. Play the weakest card first and if you know they are playing Daze then wait till you have 2 lands in play before you cast something. I just play through the countermagic, just cast stuff into them as early as possible and always cast Breakthrough for 0 almost regardless of whats in your hand. Just always anticipate Daze and Spell Snare are in their hand and play accordingly. Also don't assume you have to dredge every turn if you are in a bad spot. This deck has a way of drawing relevant cards. And if you look at a hand with 1 discard outlet, land, and dredgers usually keep it game 1 and just wait till turn 2 to cast the Imp if you anticipate Daze.

You should rarely ever be losing game 1 to anything. Darkblast does drastically improve game 1 against an unknown meta though, I have seen Survival builds with Jailers in the main and anything with Mogg Fanatic is quite annoying. But just play cautiously and against anything blue ALWAYS Cabal Therapy them first before casting anything if you can. Even if it is inconvenient to flashback a Therapy, if you think they have FoW/Extirpate/Stifle play the card and then win! A lot of the time against blue decks in game 2 I will name Trinket Mage with a blind Therapy so there will be no Tormod's Crypt fetched and played!

DeathwingZERO
12-03-2008, 12:50 AM
Your matchup vs Dreadstill HEAVILY relies on their second color. This deck in particular is another reason I stuck with the Unmasks, because it's worth ditching a potential combo piece to rip them from theirs. Against all versions, rip their hand with Therapy, even if you won't get multiple zombies out of it. Dreadstill packs very little draw other than Standstill, and most builds only run 8 counters, typically 4 of them are Daze, which LEDless builds can typically afford as long as you don't attempt tapping out on every play.

If it's monoblue, you want a Stinkweed to hit the table asap, and ride the absolute shit out of it. Their Nought will push through 9 damage, sure....but that's a 2 for 1 for you that furthers your dredge capabilities. In addition, block with whatever creatures you have if they don't drop an EE on you, to maximize your next turn's onslaught against them. Aside from Nought, they really shouldn't be putting you on any sort of clock, as the maindeck only packs 4 Manlands (typically), and 3 Mages. Aside from just beating you down though, they have very little against your man-plan. EE can only be set once (unless they pack Ruins) and only at 0 or 1, and you have cc's of 0, 1, 2, 3 and 5 that you can get down. That's really their only shutoff to your swarm, so abuse what you can and don't over-bait Crypts that they can search for. If things get stale, you can always bring back a GGT and pretty much call GG against Nought. Late games your dude should be pushing 12-15+ power, as long as they haven't hit you with Crypt.

Green splash isn't much to talk about, other than Goyf. He'll be a nuisance, but K-Grip and most other things they would use the splash for are pretty much dead. It'll play out a lot like mono-blue, but with them being able to play out a bit more aggressive.

Red splash is quite a bit tougher. They can add in Burning Wish to the main, and Pyroclasm can come out of the board (or maindecked as well). This means that your man plan needs to be the combo, while still using flying creatures to hold off a quick Nought. Again you are going to want to rape their hand asap, and blast through their counter magic. Chain of Vapor is an MVP here, much like in mono-blue. You don't need to worry about Leylines for either of these matchups, so it should always aim at Nought. This is huge tempo on your part, and they will almost never be willing to nuke a land to hit something on your end, and now they have to dig for another Stifle effect.

Next up is the notoriously painful black splash. They can maindeck Thoughtseize, Bob, sometimes Duress and Wombstalker, and can pack Extirpate, Jailer AND Leyline in the board if needed. Race the absolute hell out of this version. Attack their hand asap, go for the combo if you don't see Leyline game two. If they hit Leyline, hope you have quick answers (another reason I love Mystical here, because I draw into my Chains from the topdeck, and their discard is dead quite often), and can amass an army before they can nuke it. Abusing Ichorid and Bridge is a great plan against them here, as pinging them repeatedly means they need to find Nought or hardcast Leyline asap.

U/G/B can also be a pain in the ass (often times more so than U/B). This version plays more like a bastard child of 4c Landstill, sans white (a good thing for us, Ichorids hate to plow). They can pack all sorts of sideboard goodies, some terrible against you (K-Grip for mirror matchups, for instance), and some amazing (Leyline, Jailer, etc). The maindeck packs Goyf and Deed, giving them the ability to effectively neglect your combo and aggro plans almost entirely. This I'd personally say is the toughest. They have far more bombs than the straight up blue version and often more stable than the other splashes. They also gain a significant clock increase in Goyf, while being able to abuse both Deed and EE if necessary to keep you off a swarm.

In reality, the game plan shouldn't shift much with any of the builds, other than whether or not you plan on seeing specific hate pieces in games two and three. Constant Ichorid recursions along with backup from Moebas and Stinkweed/Thug recursions will help keep them from pinging you down too often, and the Nought should be dealt with asap. Aim Therapy at Stifle or Standstill in most cases, as the decks tend to fall apart easier without access to them. This obviously varies depending on board position and such. Go for the throat if you feel you have an opening, as they aren't a dedicated control deck. Do not be afraid to push hard against them (but do not overextend unless you are absolutely backed into a corner) because their combo takes them time to assemble and protect, all while hoping to stall you off.

This archetype is another reason I've been thinking of using CotV instead of Needle in my SB. Being able to force them into finding an EE or bounce to take down your CotV before they can even drop a Nought is huge, and usually forces them to waste a Mage in finding Explosives. It's a great card to bait their limited counter magic with, especially if you aren't going to need to heavily rely on PImp or Tribes (or you already have one down). Needle might serve a purpose in keeping Crypt/EE/Deed from blowing your board, but this is almost always just for hitting the combo. You killing off their most valued win condition seems a much better idea.

Pulp_Fiction
12-03-2008, 04:29 PM
@Deathwing: Very well said. I have not played this matchup a LOT, but I have played against it twice at my local tournament. I play against Dreadstill literally everytime I bring the deck up there (people love that stupid deck even though Krosan Grip exists ... I don't get it) but I have never encountered a version with Extirpates in it. The versions I played against were U/R/g and I didn't have much of a problem aside from EE randomly taking out Pithing Needles.

SB is all meta dependent but why would you want to take out Pithing Needles ever? They are so good against so much! But the real question is, how much will your other matchups suffer without Needle and how much will 4x CotV improve your combo match? There are a lot of people who do just play CotV as an answer for Crypt, which is fine, but that turn 1 Crypt on the play can ruin your day if you have and kind of sub-par draw.

@Piceli: What decks (aside from 4C Dreadstill) are you having problems with? Are the builds of these decks different from standard versions? This is important because my meta will randomly hate out Dredge if enough people keep bringing it and so times get tough and you just have to stop bringing the deck if everyone is prepared for it. I beat this one kid 3 times in 2 conescutive tournaments with Dredge and from then on his SB consisted of 8 HATE CARDS! One deck had 4x Leyline AND 4x Crypt AND 3x Powder Keg in the SB (he is a funny guy)! Maybe the deck is just being hated on in your meta?

DeathwingZERO
12-04-2008, 01:50 AM
My choice of taking out Pithing Needle would be mostly because the cards that I want to answer with it frequently (Crypt, Vial, EE, Top) are all CC 0 or 1. Rarely am I scared by just Deed, using Needle against Factories is typically sub-par, and a large number of times EE drops for 0 and activates on the same turn. Aside from the somewhat present Leyline in my meta, Crypt, Extirpate, and EE are really my biggest worries. They are also a one time use, requiring multiples to effectively take me down.

Chalice, on the other hand, has a ridiculous number of uses, especially in locking my opponent out harder than I do myself in a lot of cases. Needing to only have a 1 drop as a discard outlet to get me going means that I can drop Chalice turn 1 @ 0 reliably, on turn 2 can drop it for 1 pretty reliably (in most cases), and in very slow games can often drop it for 2, also an effective cut-off number.

For starters, it does increase a lot of game against combo and LED based mirrors. I can drop it for 0, and suffer absolutely no drawback whatsoever. This hampers EE against Zombies, Crypt, Moxen, and LED.

Dropping it for 1 will cut off StP, Brainstorm, Ponder, Top, Needle, Rituals, Extirpate (yayayayay), Mongoose, Fanatic, Lackey, Vial, Duress/Ostracize (lol)/Thoughtseize/Therapy (while I still get my zombies, yayayayayay), etc....the list is huge.

It'll take a bit of testing to determine it, but I honestly believe that the Chalice might end up being far more reliable having more reliable mana sources to pour into it. I like the idea of late games being able to drop it for up to 2, and topdecking it against general decks seems to be much better than the narrow (yet still useful) Needle.

If I do end up going out in the field with it, I will definitely bring back results, and comparing it to Needle's possible effectiveness in it's place. But for now, I do like the idea of shutting off the format, while personally still being to cheat it via Coliseum, Street Wraith, and the ever reliable "draw, discard, dredge".

Piceli89
12-04-2008, 04:46 PM
@Deathwing: Very well said. I have not played this matchup a LOT, but I have played against it twice at my local tournament. I play against Dreadstill literally everytime I bring the deck up there (people love that stupid deck even though Krosan Grip exists ... I don't get it) but I have never encountered a version with Extirpates in it. The versions I played against were U/R/g and I didn't have much of a problem aside from EE randomly taking out Pithing Needles.

SB is all meta dependent but why would you want to take out Pithing Needles ever? They are so good against so much! But the real question is, how much will your other matchups suffer without Needle and how much will 4x CotV improve your combo match? There are a lot of people who do just play CotV as an answer for Crypt, which is fine, but that turn 1 Crypt on the play can ruin your day if you have and kind of sub-par draw.

@Piceli: What decks (aside from 4C Dreadstill) are you having problems with? Are the builds of these decks different from standard versions? This is important because my meta will randomly hate out Dredge if enough people keep bringing it and so times get tough and you just have to stop bringing the deck if everyone is prepared for it. I beat this one kid 3 times in 2 conescutive tournaments with Dredge and from then on his SB consisted of 8 HATE CARDS! One deck had 4x Leyline AND 4x Crypt AND 3x Powder Keg in the SB (he is a funny guy)! Maybe the deck is just being hated on in your meta?

Well, I have to admit that I tested the deck playing randomly in MWS, and in g2 i was always forced to slow down because i feared that my opponent could have dropped an happy tormod's crypt with my graveyard semifull of crazy things and shut me down a lot.
The thing I really "hate" about it is that i really have to guess what kind of graveyard hate my opponent will bring in in the second game, often mistaking the type of sideboarding i make. It happened that i brought in 4 pithing needles ( just because i think that tormod/relic has become the most common form of graveyard hate), and i was hit by a leyline of the void before starting, leaving me with no exits and forced to ask g3 immediately.

For what concerns "real life" gaming, I had the intention to bring this deck to a meta full of thresholds, so i tuned the deck to fit the street wraiths, because they offer less exposal to counters ( and a good threshold player does know what to counter). What i'm really worried about is that fucking random hate my oppo has in the SB. I realized how ichorid can be devastating, but at the same time fragile and really, really hated. And everyone with a decent game level packs at least three cards in Sb for 'yard hate, and maybe sometimes EVEN maindeck.
It is even more frustrating when in g1 you don't manage to make a draw spell passing because you get always "daze, force", you remain with a hand full of cards requiring graveyards and the opponent begins to beat your ass. I'm even beginning to think that the LED-with version would suffer in a minor quantity these problems , being more explosive, but I want to stick with the LEdless version, both because i can't afford the LEDs for the time ( and they seem to be disappeared from every decent seller).
But i stil want to keep a very "explosive" list, so i'm not really interested in packing the version with the underground seas, and i'm packing the golden lands (for sb creatures, like wispmare and ingot chewer) along with 3 lotus petals. I spent almost two days pondering whether to make 3 or 4 moebas, 3 or ichorid and 3 or 4 cabal therapy, testing the (minimal, but existing) differences. I got to the conclusion that 4 moebas are really necessary in a list like mine which wants to be more oriented toward a "comboish" approach (close as soon as you can, then in g2 slow down and be careful to what the oppo dragged in from sb) rather than the "swarming progressively" one, and ichorid in 3 x seems to be ok.
However, i'll carry on testing, even if now i really see how this version of Ichorid deserves precise balancing and depends on metagame and personal tastes.
I saw some LEDless lists (one of which got 1st out of 22..that's something at least) on www.deckcheck.net running 4 lotus petals and 2x tlarian winds, i even tested that, but didn't really manage to cast tolarian winds so consistently.
But i'll keep testing,

Zinch
12-04-2008, 05:15 PM
For starters, it does increase a lot of game against combo and LED based mirrors. I can drop it for 0, and suffer absolutely no drawback whatsoever. This hampers EE against Zombies, Crypt, Moxen, and LED.



Well, that's not absolutely true, since your opponent can play the EE with one colorless mana and just kick all your zombies in the ass (and your chalice in the way...)
That's the reason pithing needle is thousands of times better than chalice against EE.

DeathwingZERO
12-04-2008, 09:38 PM
Well, that's not absolutely true, since your opponent can play the EE with one colorless mana and just kick all your zombies in the ass (and your chalice in the way...)
That's the reason pithing needle is thousands of times better than chalice against EE.

This is true, but often not a play they are capable of pulling off, since I would always be attempting to go off on my second turn, in which they only have two mana available (unless they go first). And yes, while Needle shuts down EE for good, it's a very small portion of pros for Needle, as opposed to it's con of only shutting down one card each. With no 0cc and very little 1cc spells in my deck that need to resolve, I still believe Chalice to have a much better fit.

This does raise a question I've yet to actually find the answer for myself, can you choose to use colored mana as a colorless source when casting spells (Sunburst ones especially)? I seem to recall it being possible, but that might have been an older rulebook I had seen it in. Any time I've seen players have to "cheat" their EE's to a different CC they just used a duplicate of a color already in it.

frogboy
12-04-2008, 09:44 PM
This does raise a question I've yet to actually find the answer for myself, can you choose to use colored mana as a colorless source when casting spells (Sunburst ones especially)

No.

DeathwingZERO
12-04-2008, 10:22 PM
No.

Cool. So Thresh and the like that have no way of getting to colorless sources are still boned, as I thought.

Eeeeeeexcelleeeeeeent.

Dark_Cynic87
12-08-2008, 03:43 PM
Be careful about this assumption as well. Tempo thresh (Thrash) plays Wastelands, which allows them to "cheat" one into play. Against CB varients, there is no Wasteland and I'm not entirely sure they even run EE... Be sure you know which you are playing against.

Pce,

--DC

akira073
12-16-2008, 07:23 PM
Dark Cynic, i post you the list I'm currently running on, it's very similar to deathwingzero's one:

Maindeck-60

4 Cephalid coliseum
4 gemstone mine
4 city of brass

4 putrid imp
4 street wraith
4 GGT
3 golgari thug
4 StImp
1 FKZ
1 sage
4 ichorid
4 narcomoeba

4 careful study
2 breakthrough
3 lotus petal
4 BFB
4 cabal therapy
2 dread return ( i feel it should be 3x...)

sideboard (still sucks, reasoning on it):
4 pithing needles
4 chain of vapor
1 darkblast ( to be sided against fanatics or jailers)
1 akroma, angel of wrath ( could be angel of despair but i love this chick)
2 ancient grudge
3 ray of revelation

As you see, no COTV in here

Now, the problem is what to cut for 2-3x tireless tribes. I want the deck to be consistent in its combo, NOT suffer the usual blue hate (counters)-so street wraith should be a 4-ofs, since it's only stifable, be fast enough to pull a turn 2-3 victory, and possibly to fight well against the usual SB hate shit.
Is it possible to have all these features in only one deck ?
if you need help around counters, refer to the LED Ichorid thread. my best matchup is against thresh/stiflenough because of Unmask.

Piceli89
12-17-2008, 12:23 PM
@Akira073: Sorry sir, I searched for the LED ichorid thread and didn't find anything rilevant. I know that unmask is good, but not-so when facing a deck that runs 4x stifle, 4 daze, 4x force and usually has 2-3 in hand at time. Moreover, in that thread you're discussing about a LED-with list (with which unmask is surely greater), while i still want stick with a LEDless list. If you can suggest a list that doesn't run LED and can consistently beat decks abusing a lot of counters-even running Unmask-, I'd really appreciate it.

Dark_Cynic87
12-19-2008, 12:02 AM
No, Ichorid lists with LED don't do any better with Unmask than you will with an LED-less version. It's a good card for both lists, but not as good as your Therapies. They are used in tandem with Therapy as a "hey, I'm randomly broken" application. They are to be used in heavy control matchups such as Landstill and Thresh/Thrash. They normally have 2-3 cards in their hand and you throw an unmask their way. The best possible thing they could do is to force it. Then they have one card or no cards in their hand and you can even assume it's a Daze and play around that one card. If they have blue open and you are worried about Stifle, then use a Therapy before you Dread Return--they're good for things like that.

I'd play 2-3 in my sideboard or one maindeck and another in the board if I were you and you were expecting some pretty annoying blue matchups. I think Firestorm also belongs in the Sideboard for those matches as well as aggro/goblins matchup.

Maybe something like:

3x Whispmare
4x Chalice//Needle
4x Chain of Vapor
2x Unmask
2x Firestorm

?

I've been trying it, but I don't have to board for the mostpart, so I can't say if it's a good configuration or not.

Pce,

--DC

DeathwingZERO
12-19-2008, 02:32 AM
Piceli, could you elaborate on the deck packing all of that disruption? It sounds like you are playing against either something like Dreadstill, UG Disruption/Tempo Thresh or Stack MUC. The threats they play and the speed at which they can control your board are both very different, so it'd be nice to get more info out.

As far as Dreadstill goes, the (quite large) post I made at the top of this page is my overall view/plays against each version I have tested and encountered. UG Tempo Thresh and Stack based MUC I almost always just go to 8 cards and roll them from there.

A little more info about the decks (and not just the disruption suite) would be a huge help with assessing how to play against them.

Piceli89
12-19-2008, 07:46 PM
Piceli, could you elaborate on the deck packing all of that disruption? It sounds like you are playing against either something like Dreadstill, UG Disruption/Tempo Thresh or Stack MUC. The threats they play and the speed at which they can control your board are both very different, so it'd be nice to get more info out.

As far as Dreadstill goes, the (quite large) post I made at the top of this page is my overall view/plays against each version I have tested and encountered. UG Tempo Thresh and Stack based MUC I almost always just go to 8 cards and roll them from there.

A little more info about the decks (and not just the disruption suite) would be a huge help with assessing how to play against them.

I have serious problems with this deck in fighting against blue based deck packing both free counters, land destruction and huge undercosted creatures. Yes, in other words i'm talking about UGB thresh and team america, and then about dreadstill ( especially the black version which sometimes runs silly extirpates), because they can offer heavy suite of counters and game 1 bad hate ( trinket for tormod's is a pain in the ass). The matches go usually quite like this: i try to gather a good hand with quite 1-2 draw spells and/or cephalid coliseums to start the combo, but an early thoughtseize often steals one of those key spells without which i haven't the possbility both to strt the engine and to wait for 8 cards in hand ( assuming that i'm playing second) to discard a dredger in the cleanup step.
If i try to wait, they can just keep sculpting their hand through brainstorms and ponders playing with mana open (sometumes cheating, but how can i know if they have force/daze or not? cabal therapy are 4 ofs in my deck, but a brainstorm can cover as well, and it often happens that they have a force and a daze simultaneously) to have access to all the counterspells. You know , the mana in ichorid is quite tight, so wasteland are further pain in the ass to deal with. And finally, while i'm trying not to drown with a hand full of cards which cry "discard me" and the discarders/drawers have been all countered /discarded, i'm forced to be beaten by a tarmogoyf which is huge because of the yards filled with food for him and thrash for me.
You know, i'm not a pro, but it seems almost impossible against a good opponent who can hold his cards and play them at the right time to make a good spell break through ( pun intended ) his defences. and wastelands. and seizes /duresses. and fuckin "draw 2 per turn " confidants. and fat goyfs.
I'm really beginning to wonder whether or not that bit of more explosiveness given by that fucking LED is really necessary against those decks, or if unmask has possibilities to find MD slots.
Finally, this is the list of a typical UGB thrAsh:

ceatures -12

4 Dark Confidant
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

instant [23]

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Putrefy
2 Smother
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

sorcery [7]

3 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize

land [18]

1 Bayou
3 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland

SB

3 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
3 Engineered Plague
3 Pernicious Deed

Pulp_Fiction
12-19-2008, 07:54 PM
What is your exact list and SB when you play Dedge and how to you SB and what type of hands do you typically keep against these types of decks?

DeathwingZERO
12-20-2008, 12:30 AM
Unmask has always been an mvp for me against decks like UGB Thrash/Rock/Team America and Dreadstill lists, because it ups your own disruption to 7 spells, and if you are on the play game one, they can only Force the Unmask or Therapy.

Against any of these decks, be more prepared to rape their hand and see their available cards they could possibly have, and the mana they have chosen to both put into play and keep open. Do not hesitate to rely on just Ichorid beats/zombie recursion and have the combo be your backup for when you've gotten the upper hand.

Fast Gofy's are a royal pain in the ass, but just recurring Ichorid's and saccing them EoT for zombies to chump block can help against them quite often as well.

In the case of these decks, the LED package can offer far more help (Firestorm ditching your hand can nuke a Goyf and it's little minions, and DA can give you an upper hand in tight occasions), but it's not really that much better of a matchup than non-LED lists. Fast and heavy hitters with a disruption suite have always been the bane of this deck.

Piceli89
12-20-2008, 07:35 AM
What is your exact list and SB when you play Dedge and how to you SB and what type of hands do you typically keep against these types of decks?

Well,this is the list I'm running:

MainDeck (60)

4 gemstone mine
4 cephalid coliseum
4 city of brass
3 lotus petal ( gives that bit of explosiveness required and at least it's not wastable..)

4 putrid imp
3 golgari thug
3 ichorid
4 golgari grave troll
4 STimp
4 street wraith
1 FKZ
1 cephalid sage
4 narcomoeba


4 careful study
3 breakthrough
3 cabal therapy
4 bfb
3 dread return

Sideboard (15)

4 Pithing needles
3 chain of vapor
4 wispmare
1 angl of despair
3 ingot chewer
2 chain of vapor
1 darkblast

Maybe i could try+1 ichorid and +1 therapy for something else, but i found myself quite comfortable with this configuration ( even if sometimes i wish i had more therapies/disruption against that critical MUs i talked above).
For the sideboard, againt deck (probably ) packing tormod's crypt as Sb hate i usually go -1 thug, -1 dread return, -1 sage, -1 breakthrough and +4 pithing needles. I usually side out dread return and then, consequentially, a sage because i feel that, with the danger of crypt sweeping my yard, i want to draw more cards which are useful on the board as permanents, other way they 'd be only dead cards ( also because tormod's will make my life more difficult in dredging and--> having 3 creatures to sac).
If ( for my very sadness) i discover that my opponent has sided in 4 Gaylines of the void, i.. have to say g3 and put in wispmares ( not really chain of vapor, since wispmare is recurrable and token -fodder), switching them with the needles. If they pack both, well , i could make 3 and 3 split, so getting something out of maindeck, but in this way i risk to compromise the engine of the combo too much.
A typical (good) hand i could keep against these decks is
Cephalid coliseum, city of brass, careful study, troll, bfb. STimp, putrid imp.
This is a vey good hand, and it's not really always this way. it has a minimum of resistance ( 2 lands), a discarder imp), and a draw engine ( careful study /coliseum). Now, what if imp and study are both countered by fucking dazes /forces walking around ? it leaves me with dead cards in hand, with coliseum unable to explode for the lack of threshold in my yard, and with me hoping to draw something good ( and not getting wastelanded/pwned in the while).
A hand i would not keep against them is for example
ichorid, bfb, thug, street wraith, gemstone mine, FKZ, STimp.
Too much instable and "without certainties" ( if i don't draw a draw spell, well.. i'm pretty fucked, and i'm fucked also if a thoughtseize touches me, stealing the opportunity to discard a dredger and then to street wraith).
Well, this is also an important issue i really cannot master properly, to understand when i have to draw and when i have to dredge instead, hoping to drag something interesting. Dredging 6 per turn is for example good, but wouldn't be drawing a careful study/ breakthrough more decisive and fast?

kicks_422
12-20-2008, 11:01 AM
Mike Herbig told me to check out Whirlpool Drake as a DR target. In goldfishing, it sometimes emptied the library in one pinch. Sometimes, it just flat out sucked. The added dimension of randomness looks steep, but the potential is there. Has anyone else tested it out?

Pulp_Fiction
12-20-2008, 03:27 PM
Play around Daze as much as possible, if they have an Island on turn 1 don't play anything, just wait till turn 2. Although I see what you are saying. That matchup would be annoying as hell. Always Cabal Therapy on Extirpate (of Goyf if your hand is slow). I think this matchup would benefit from those extra 3 lands (instead of Lotus Petal) and start hardcasting your creatures. Stinkweed would fuck them up good if you cast it (it owns Team Duhh). Try your best to bait counters with Careful Study first since it is the weakest of the draw spells. Also, Tireless Tribe would clog up that board like a champ. It would probably be best if you didn't side out Sage since you only play 1. Take out all 3x Breakthrough and a Dread Return. Undiscovered Paradise would also assist in discarding for this, but with 4x PImp and 3x Tribe I never had much of a problem discarding my hand. I really dislike Breakthrough in this matchup since it will always be countered and the slow dredge is certainly the way to win this game. A slow setup, DDD always works but that depends on their board and how aggressive their draw is. Dark Confidant would certainly work in our favor :) And you don't want to start going nuts only to be double Extirpated or something awful like that. I could see this matchup getting very complex. But it is certainly not unwinnable, just anticipate the worst and the deck can certainly have a chance. Any bringing in 2x Wispmare might not be a bad idea. Most people are largely unaware of the impact Engineered Plague has on this deck (naming Illusion or Horror). In case they sided those in and you always want to be prepared for Deed. I love these awful Threshold variants, they have no synergy at all!

Muradin
12-26-2008, 04:17 AM
While I've already been playing Ichorid when it was still good in Extended, most of my experience with this deck comes from Legacy. However I feel like if the Etended version was actually much more consistant and only a little bit slower compared to Parcher's LED version.

That's why I've been recently looking into this thread. But the list doesn't seem very focused to me. Only 3 Breakthrough because it's bad when they are countered? This is the most broken card in this deck and definitely an automatic 4.of imo. And while I like Tireless Tribe simply for being Putrid Imp Number 5-7, he really isn't worth playing 5 color as this takes away the biggest advantage of the LEd-less version: You can reliably hardcast your imps, moebas and thugs for the Beatdown plan.
This is not possible when your lands die after the 3rd activation or deal tons of damage to you while you are trying to win a damage race against an opponent who mulliganed for crypt.
Furthermore the non-LED version is perfectly legal in old Extended (without Undiscovered Paradise), but in those days the straight forward UB version that was much more popular and therefore shouldn't be forgotten.
For me the starting point for every LED less Ichorid list should be the usual and absolutely agreed on Extended list of those days:

1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
1 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Darkblast
2 Tolarian Winds
4 Breakthrough
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below

4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground River
4 Watery Grave
(2nd place GP Wien and many others)

Of course Akroma is crap in Legacy and I wouldn't run any fetches or the basic Island as well. But the rest of the deck really seems to be a solid and very well tested starting point for me.
The Manabase of a Straight UB 15 land Ichorid in Legacy could look like this:

4 Cephalid coliseum
4 Watery Grave
4 Underground Sea
3 Underground River

This manabase is stifle-proof and will only deal very limited amounts of damage to you when you are going for moeba beatdown. The rest of the deck is by no means perfect (it was in Extended as everybody and his mother ran this build, but it has to be adjusted for the Legacy metagame)

The Akroma would have to go in Legacy and I think there is no real need for a big guy in her slot. This gives us a slot for the 16th land(to make Tolarian Winds more castable), the 4th therapy(probably needed in legacy) or the 4th Ichorid (while absolutely necessary in the LED versions he is imo not needed in here because the focus of the deck is rather zombies and not Ichorid beats.)
In my limited testing and goldfishing with this list and all those games I played with it in Extended, Tolarian Winds proofed to be absolutely broken, but I am not sure if it still is in the much faster Legacy environment with Daze, Spell Snare and fast combo in it.

What are your thought on this deck and what would you change for an UB list in Legacy?

DeathwingZERO
12-26-2008, 07:46 AM
Actually, no it shouldn't. Extended of the old days does not equal Legacy of now. They didn't have to deal with decks packing turn one goldfish (ANT, TES, mirror matches), turn two lockdowns (Stax variants, Enchantress), or turn three aggro wins (RGB Goblins, Dreadstill). They also didn't have to deal with about 3/4 of the "unfair" cards we have access to in our pool (FoW, StP, Elephant Grass to name a few).

And out of curiosity, by what term are you using "Old" as? Time Spiral block is where dredge was born, and that was two years ago. We haven't had a large scale rotation since then, so in reality, this is still "new/current" Extended, kinda.

I'm going to set the record straight on this minor pet peeve though:

Tolarian Winds is GARBAGE. No matter how much my buddy fought me for it, no matter how many times I would cast it, it simply sucked more often than it did anything. And I'm really not a fan of cards that suck.

-It's great that it discards before you draw. Really. But LEDless versions DO NOT want to rape their hands, which is why LED was the first thing cut. The card ONLY has potential when you have dredge creatures in your hands already, and that's what the discard outlet of creatures is for. You discard what you want, when you want. Anything else = inconsistent.

-It's awesome that it's 1U and instant speed. However, you will never really care, as any time you can cast this for 1U, you could have just as easily activated a Coliseum and followed it with Careful Study. This should happen turn two, by the way.

If we were to factor in card loss/gain by that point, on the play we would have 7 - 1 + 1 -1 -1, for opening hand minus land, plus draw, minus land, minus spell. That means we'd have 5 cards drawn we get to dredge with, and since the likelihood of all those cards being dredgers is very low, we've discarded other spells, lands, and outlets to dredge X cards. Neither safe, nor consistent.

To put it simply, it's an overcosted Breakthrough that's even less broken when you factor in that you will probably not have 3+ dredgers in your opening hand, when any/all draw spells matter. And if that's the case, you've just dumped other draw spells or lands to try to get some dredgers in your hand, which you now have to rely on the discard outlets to get rid of anyways.

Catching the problem yet?

Now, alongside that, Breakthrough is also very, very lackluster without LED and DA. In one of my posts either in the original Ichorid thread, or here, if you take one piece of the combo out of the equation, you severely weaken the other two. By "combo" here, I mean DA-Breakthrough-LED.

-Without LED, DA is terrible, and uncastable under nearly all circumstances.

-Without DA, Breakthrough doesn't serve much more than situational dredge engine #2, right behind Careful Study, being far more practical.

-Without both, Breakthrough serves only as a situational spell that when combined with the correct dredge targets, no discard outlet in place, and mana open, can be fuel for explosiveness. However, this is not the main plan (therefor not a 4 of). It's there to fuel a random turn one explosion, or get you out of DDD.

The U/B list is roughly akin to what I was working up, but I would be very unlikely to pilot something that looked anything like what you currently have from Extended. That build has the luxury of Extended being a much slower environment, and never needed to combo off turns two or three consistently. We do, however.

The dredge count there is 11. Unfortunately, Darkblast is far more of a metagame choice than Thug, and Thug has the ability to be cast & chump, and put other creatures back into your library at the same time. Darkblast is very situational, and you can't just cast it if it's cluttering your hand, and needs to be disposed of. If I were to stick with 11 dredge, I wouldn't put Thug down to 1 just to fit in Darkblast. But we actually have room, as Winds and Akroma no longer need to be in the deck. Maybe up the count of dredge cards to 13? Sounds like a plan.

Breakthrough as a 3 of again gives us another slot to play with, in case we realize that having 4 without the luxury of activating LED for Coliseum or DA seems to be......well, bad. It's okay though, because this card can be the golden ticket. This lets us decide if we wanted to put in 3 of something (keeping 11 dredgers instead of 13), and figure out if that 3 of is worth it. We have access to Unmask, for unfavorable combo and dedicated control matchups. Or we could knock down one Narcomoeba, seeing as it's completely situational (the 4th one, that is, not Narcomoeba in general), and have 4 open slots. Maybe... Street Wraith, for added free dredge, dig, and Ichorid recursion. Hey, if we put 3 Unmask in the SB, that's even 4 more black spells we can toss for it when we need to side in.

Wait, I think we just came back to my build. Whoops.

Now, this post is not really just me being a total ass because I was on a House rampage this week and have probably drawn in more of his attitude than I'd admit to, but it's more of an understanding that we need faster options that Extended simply didn't look into, because they didn't need to.

The Extended clock was typically turn four victory. It did have potential for faster, but it usually waited until turns two and three to set up the kill, not turns one and two like we do. The U/B build I've been testing has been as consistent as the "standard" and 5c LEDless builds, with a little less narrow minded sideboarding.

My real question now is, if we know our deck doesn't need to last to the long game, where U/B Extended list looks good, what benefit does cutting back to U/B give us, if it cuts our sideboard options for multiple outs?

By the way, I was serious about this post not being just me being an ass. I simply went through the process that I myself have gone through, and rather than it being multiple months, it was a single post. U/B needs to prove it can handle just as much as 5c lists can, so if we were to look at reinventing the wheel, we should start with the sideboard, not the maindeck.

loop
12-26-2008, 09:15 AM
And out of curiosity, by what term are you using "Old" as? Time Spiral block is where dredge was born, and that was two years ago. We haven't had a large scale rotation since then, so in reality, this is still "new/current" Extended, kinda.
Well, Torment, Odyssey and Judgment rotated out of Extended in october, so current ext Dredge decks don't look like Ichorid at all.

I don't have much to add after Deathwing's lengthy post, but I have to say I totally agree about Tolarian Winds. No matter the situation it always seems underwhelming.

DeathwingZERO
12-26-2008, 10:03 AM
Ah, I had forgotten this year was the last of the 3 blocks/3 years rotation. Even then, 2 months is hardly what I'd consider "old", lol. I'm from pre-Legacy time frame, when "old" Extended still had duals and FoW.

Pulp_Fiction
12-26-2008, 01:21 PM
I tested it out and strongly disliked it. It was to situational. Now when it resolves, you almost always win. But waiting till turn 3-4 against someone you plays Daze just to cast it and hope then don't have a proper counter for it is not a plan. Tolarian Winds is good but it starts putting the deck into that all-in mode and we have Breakthrough which fills that same role.

IMOP, in the Legacy environment, Tireless Tribe is even more relevant. It is a discard outlet and it saves you a TON of life. It blocks Goyf all day and comes down turn 1 to stop a Lackey which is VERY improtant.

It is nice to see someone who also agrees with me on Darkblast but I view the Thug/Darkblast as more a meta call. My meta is infested with Goblins and Affinity so I play it main. Neither is more right than the other but I do personally prefer Darkblast since it nullifies Mogg Fanatic and Jailer and keeps Dark Confidant off the board permanently (I don't want them drawing more Extirpates).

I would not run that list in Legacy. If you want to play non-LED Dredge in this format look to the opening post at my list or at Deathwing's Street Wraith Dredge list and go from there. Both of these decks are thoroughly tested and refined. You can start switching cards out later on but take either of these lists and start playing against savage Aggro, Thresh, Landstill, Stompy variants, and Loam variants so you understand the format how to handle the hate cards and which hate cards are run by which decks. One thing that is exactly the same as extended, is that it is all about counter sideboarding.

There have been numerous discussions about why would you run fattys in a format with StP but in the end, this is the result, run them if you want too, BUT why reanimate a fatty when you can just flat out win OR reanimate a giant Grave Troll?

As previously stated by Deathwing, this deck is all about pacing, timing, and selective dredging. It doesn't matter when you win, just that you do. This deck is able to slow the game down enough to win OR can go the savage turn 2 kill route. Playing just UB limits greatly your SB options and MD options as well. In a format with Dark Ritual the opponent can easily re-cast Leyline which is why Wispmare is SO good. You can EOT cast Chain on Leyline and then attempt to combo off but if the deck isn't being kind to you and your dredges are garbage then you may have just lost. It does depend though, you could dredge into Therapy and get it out of their hand but still, if they are playing Leyline, it is accompanied by hand destruction and land destruction so you can't really sit around and sculpt the perfect hand, you just have to go for the win.

GoldenCid
12-26-2008, 08:53 PM
Nobody have tested eternal witness??

DeathwingZERO
12-26-2008, 09:10 PM
Nobody have tested eternal witness??

Eternal Witness is used more when the sideboard options allow for playing it, and if the metagame calls for it. Since my meta isn't infested with aggro decks that I have to worry about, I don't need Firestorm, etc. Witness in that case really is far less useful, as I don't have a reason to bring anything back from my grave for the most part. In my playing, she really only acted like Sage #2.

thefreakaccident
12-27-2008, 03:09 AM
Why in the hell would you want to play ichorid w/out LED?!

Someone please explain this to me.

EDIT: Actually read the primer... NVM

EDIT2:

Who cares if it is more consistant, without the speed, the deck cannot race agro or combo, and gives oposing strategies time to disrupt/delay...

That's my take on it anyways.

GoldenCid
12-27-2008, 04:25 PM
Why in the hell would you want to play ichorid w/out LED?!

Someone please explain this to me.

EDIT: Actually read the primer... NVM

EDIT2:

Who cares if it is more consistant, without the speed, the deck cannot race agro or combo, and gives oposing strategies time to disrupt/delay...

That's my take on it anyways.

These are understable arguments, but non - LED dredge is not a catastrophe!
What i mean is that LED version needs some more experience in playing combo decks specially in the selection of initial hands. IT IS CONSISTENT but no so much predictable. I think that some people feel more safe playing "no combo" ichorid version because is easier and still efective! It remembers me the terrifying old extended version. However, it clearly prefer the LED version due too it explosiveness and efectiveness and it speed which improves our match against combo and control. In addition it allows the "switch" sideboarding to no combo dredge if needed.

EDIT: i think that 4 ichorids and 4 therapies are needed

alderon666
01-08-2009, 02:30 PM
My take on dredge.

Creatures
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Cephalid Sage
2 Tireless Tribe
1 Woodfall Primus

Spells
4 Bridge from Below
4 Breakthrough
3 Careful Study
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
3 Unmask

Lands
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass

- 12 lands: I like casting my creatures and having a chance to go weenie beatdown.

- 3 Unmask: Kinda hard sometimes to decide what to pitch, but against control matches it's golden. Game 2/3 on the play removes the hate and comboes awesomely with Cabal Therapy.

- 3 Dread Return: Do I really need 3? I feel I do, when you can't dredge a great amount of cards sometimes you just NEED a Dread Return to keep going with Cephalid Sage or to stall the game with Woodfall Primus.

- Woodfall Primus: Because I don't like to lose to Propaganda, Ghostly Prison, Solitary Confinement, Glacial Chasm... I could go on.

- 3 Ichorid: I don't feel they're that good to need 4, sure they help me go off easier, but I feel I don't have enough black creatures to support 4.

In my opinion this deck has some advantages over the LED version:
- Greater consistency with 6 Putrid Imp, which help fightning hate game 2 and 3 since you don't have to go all-LED-in.
- Good amount of disruption against control.
- Woodfall Primus gives a way out of sticky situations.

I haven't figured out the sideboard yet, since it seems dependant on the metagame. But what you think about my MD?

spiritmage788
01-12-2009, 05:42 AM
Hi alderon. Looks like a pretty good list. I'm in the process of building an Ichorid deck myself right now, trying to figure out what sort of build to play. Hope you don't mind a few questions.

My primary question is: You seem to be running fewer lands (I suppose I should say mana sources thanks to Lotus Petal) than others who have posted here. How often do you find that you don't have enough mana?

Also: You also seem to favor Breakthrough over Careful Study, though previous posters have discussed the "lackluster" feeling they have towards Breakthrough. Care to discuss?

Thanks!

GoldenCid
01-12-2009, 09:08 AM
Hi alderon. Looks like a pretty good list. I'm in the process of building an Ichorid deck myself right now, trying to figure out what sort of build to play. Hope you don't mind a few questions.

My primary question is: You seem to be running fewer lands (I suppose I should say mana sources thanks to Lotus Petal) than others who have posted here. How often do you find that you don't have enough mana?

Also: You also seem to favor Breakthrough over Careful Study, though previous posters have discussed the "lackluster" feeling they have towards Breakthrough. Care to discuss?


I'm not alderon but i play ichorid since a time. If you are thinking on building an ichorid take this pack as an advice (beyond the version you choose to build):
4 Ichorid
4 Cabal therapy
4 Putrid imp
4 Stinkweed imp
4 Golgari grave troll
3 Golgari thug
1 FKZ
2-3 DRead return

Careful study is good but breakthroug is better for comboing...

alderon666
01-12-2009, 10:59 AM
Hi alderon. Looks like a pretty good list. I'm in the process of building an Ichorid deck myself right now, trying to figure out what sort of build to play. Hope you don't mind a few questions.

My primary question is: You seem to be running fewer lands (I suppose I should say mana sources thanks to Lotus Petal) than others who have posted here. How often do you find that you don't have enough mana?

Also: You also seem to favor Breakthrough over Careful Study, though previous posters have discussed the "lackluster" feeling they have towards Breakthrough. Care to discuss?

Thanks!

I don't like the lands that much, they all are so bad I'd rather run something else. I just don't want to take 3 damage to cast a turn 1 Careful Study.

About the Breakthrough, with more Putrid Imps you can make a better use of turn 2 Breakthrough by going turn 1 PImp, dredge on draw step, discard dredger and Breakthrough. The only time it's really bad it's when you draw only 1 land and no way to discard a dredger... then you have to go all-in into slow dredge.

The Unmask are only good if you're playing against a lot of counters... even though it eventually allows a turn 1 combo with Breakthrough.

GoldenCid
01-12-2009, 11:17 AM
Mmmmff.....for card philosophy read the LED in ichorid combo thread. There are large discussions about the use of cards depending on your pairing.

spiritmage788
01-12-2009, 07:59 PM
Thanks guys, hopefully I'll be able to put together an Ichorid list soon and contribute more to the thread with my own play experiences.

I as well thought that a lot of the lands the multi-color versions looked terrible, but it seemed they were the only options. I'm excited to see that there's a version that can run off the 12 lands alone. I may add 1 Undiscovered Paradise... we'll see.

Joe_C
01-27-2009, 05:17 PM
Im kind of upset with myself that I didnt play this deck this past weekend at Manchester. Looking through the Top8 noone was REALLY prepared for ichorid. I played TES, which there were several others playing storm combo as well, but if I had made my way through the first few rounds I would have been golden playing ichorid....

DeathwingZERO
01-27-2009, 05:36 PM
Im kind of upset with myself that I didnt play this deck this past weekend at Manchester. Looking through the Top8 noone was REALLY prepared for ichorid. I played TES, which there were several others playing storm combo as well, but if I had made my way through the first few rounds I would have been golden playing ichorid....

It really is the pinnacle of metagame combo. They have to devote a ton of slots to it, or lose to it. With that said, if they do devote enough to it, it's the easiest of all combo to hate out.

Joe_C
01-28-2009, 11:45 AM
It really is the pinnacle of metagame combo. They have to devote a ton of slots to it, or lose to it. With that said, if they do devote enough to it, it's the easiest of all combo to hate out.

I think the meta is in prime position for this deck to win some tournaments. People just dont play ichorid extensively since the LED version is unstable. Ive hopped on the LED-free train and Im loving it.

Joe_C
02-01-2009, 07:26 AM
(apology for double post)

Want to keep this thread alive with a mild alteration from other lists on here for the non-LED build. For those who have played this version for countless more games than I(namely, Deathwing/Pulp Fiction)I have a list I would love some input on to see if this setup has been tried etc... I am loving it at the moment, it is consistently winning turns 2-4 with some BUSTED plays.

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise
*(note- this mana base is really solid, well as solid as it can be for 5c)

4 Ichorid
4 Bridge
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
3 Street Wraith
4 Putrid Imp
2 Tireless tribe
4 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
1 Cephalid Sage
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Narcomoeba
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

sb:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pithing Needle
4 Wispmare
3 Chain of Vapor

Yes- NO breakthrough. Street wraith makes for busted turn 1 plays since we do not have a free discard oultet like LED. Running 4 Imp, 2 Tribe is seriously amazing. There is not a hand that doesnt get better with a permanent outlet like that in there. I cannot justify running darkblast in my meta, the creatures I see are all to large, I dont see enough ROCK to worry about Teeg etc. Goyfs are my biggest worry and I can just swarm those decks.

Comments appreciated, this may get played at a tourney soon.

GoldenCid
02-01-2009, 07:49 PM
I like this version, although i'm a LED based dredge...maybe unmask should be considered. And....breakthrough seems quite better than street wraith.

Joe_C
02-02-2009, 12:30 PM
I like this version, although i'm a LED based dredge...maybe unmask should be considered. And....breakthrough seems quite better than street wraith.

Unmask would only be run in place of careful study if I was fearing combo. If they win the die roll and win turn 1, it wont help you anyway. Chalice game 2/3 and therapy should be good enough to keep them off winning too quickly.

Breakthrough without LED IMO is not better than wraith. You need to wait till turn 2 to play breakthrough with this deck. And emptying your hand in this build is not what we want to do. Playing lands is why this deck is more consistent. If we throw them away to breakthrough, we are playing a slow version of LED'd Ichorid. I will likely drop 1 dread return for tribe #3

Pulp_Fiction
02-02-2009, 01:14 PM
There really is no need to debate which is better, Street Wraith or Breakthrough because there isn't an answer. It is all just a matter of play-style. Street Wraith is likely to get Stifled but can't be countered which is a serious plus to the deck and it acts as additional Ichorid fodder. Breakthrough gives the decks that extra explosiveness but, much like Deep Analysis, is very suceptible to counterspells.

Both have their weaknesses and benefits. However, to someone who has never played non-LED Dredge, Street Wraith seems terrible since you only get to dredge once, but it is not. Read some of the opening posts and look at Deathwing's builds, Street Wraith is a house in Dredge!

@joe_c: The list looks good. Just goldfish it alot so you get the motions of the deck and then play in on MWS or IRL so you get used to battling through hate cards. If you plan on bringing it to a tournament get ready to see Tormod's Crypt/Relic or Leyline of the Void every game 2 and 3. Make sure you know how to properly SB the deck and be ready. One of the trickier cards to play against in today's meta is Extirpate. People love to Extirpate the biggest dredger in the yard first, in an attempt to stall the deck. When sideboarding against someone you know runs Extirpate I like to take out 1x Grave Troll since it lessens the impact of the card. In your build I would cut 1x Ichorid and 1x GGT against Extirpate. Never side out Bridge from Below though, card is TOOO vital to the deck.

Glad to see some more interest in the deck.

GoldenCid
02-02-2009, 02:01 PM
Unmask would only be run in place of careful study if I was fearing combo. If they win the die roll and win turn 1, it wont help you anyway. Chalice game 2/3 and therapy should be good enough to keep them off winning too quickly.

You mean storm decks right? Other combo deck such as Grinding servant or Aluren doesn't like unmask.


I will likely drop 1 dread return for tribe #3

This could be a smart change. Why not one thug more or steet wraith for feeding ichorid??

Joe_C
02-02-2009, 02:11 PM
You mean storm decks right? Other combo deck such as Grinding servant or Aluren doesn't like unmask.



This could be a smart change. Why not one thug more or steet wraith for feeding ichorid??

Obviously I meant storm combo. Against Aluren, in come wispmares and you know what to name with therapy, enough said there.....

@Pulp: I have played LED'd Ichorid against friends (playing landstill w/black and such)quite a bit and got used to fighting through hate, but I never took it to a tournament due to inconsitency. Relic gets played more than anything in my meta. Leyline is practically not seen. The last tournament I did play in a few weeks ago I am disappointed that I did not play this instead of TES. There was not a single ichorid deck there, but tons of counterbalance. This version is better at handling hate than LED'd lists anyway. Making land drops is severely beneficial although the deck can technically win with 1 land in play. I notice you board out 1 sage in almost every matchup. Did you ever feel like it could just be another card in your list instead?

Wraith is pretty much staying in my build due to the fact that it is free dredge and food for ichorid turn 2 without losing a dredger. I would run unmask main, but I cant justify wrecking my speed/creature base to support it

Piceli89
02-06-2009, 01:50 PM
I start saying that i picked up this deck again and it's beginnng to convince me a lot.
However, is it the true way to completely cut the Breakthroughs ? I mean, ok that this is not a "all-in" way to play ichorid, but breakthrough sometimes is required to keep that bit of explosivness which can allow to achieve games quickly and without taking too much time. If we rely only on careful study as "multiple dredging " enabler (apart from coliseum), i think that the way to dredge become too low: 4 coliseum+ 4 wraith+ 4 studies. Is really 12 enough?
Personally i'm running the list Joe C has published, with -1 therapy and -1 awful-tarnished citadel for +2 breakthrough, and it seems to perform really, really well.

Joe_C
02-06-2009, 02:08 PM
I start saying that i picked up this deck again and it's beginnng to convince me a lot.
However, is it the true way to completely cut the Breakthroughs ? I mean, ok that this is not a "all-in" way to play ichorid, but breakthrough sometimes is required to keep that bit of explosivness which can allow to achieve games quickly and without taking too much time. If we rely only on careful study as "multiple dredging " enabler (apart from coliseum), i think that the way to dredge become too low: 4 coliseum+ 4 wraith+ 4 studies. Is really 12 enough?
Personally i'm running the list Joe C has published, with -1 therapy and -1 awful-tarnished citadel for +2 breakthrough, and it seems to perform really, really well.

If you play my list enough, you may come to make these changes:-1 wraith, +1 Cephalid Sage. The second sage makes getting to the bottom of your library easier and its the 1st card I would cut game 2/3. I may drop a land to put in 1 more wraith. I seem to hit lands often when I dredge, and running 14 may or may not be enough. I would not suggest losing therapy #4. It makes the fact that your ichorid will die anyway purposeful. I would run 4, no question.

Dont forget that running 6 permanent discard outlets(imp and tribe) makes dredging on your draw step really easy. Ive dredged 5 times on my 2nd turn. thats busted.

Nessaja
02-06-2009, 04:48 PM
Dont forget that running 6 permanent discard outlets(imp and tribe) makes dredging on your draw step really easy. Ive dredged 5 times on my 2nd turn. thats busted.

You know, with a manalist like yours, having a turn 2 breakthrough is a guaranteed dredge 5 times. T1 Imp/Tribe T2 Breakthrough practically means you won the game..

Btw, has Reveilark been considered as a Dread Return target? Returning either a sage, 2 grave trolls (against EE@0), Flamekin Zealot, Wispmares. There's a lot of neat stuff you can do with him.

Perhaps it's a little win more though =/

Also, I'm finding both FoW and targetted discard to be a problem for this deck, they can just target Pimp/Tribe - any other discard card you have and it'll take forever to get started.. any suggestions?

Joe_C
02-06-2009, 08:14 PM
This is where I am at:

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Ichorid
4 Bridge
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
2 Street Wraith
4 Putrid Imp
2 Tireless tribe
4 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
2 Cephalid Sage
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Narcomoeba
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

sb:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pithing Needle
4 Wispmare
3 Chain of Vapor

I cant see dropping below 15 lands. We really want one in our opening 7. Ive been able to fight through some serious hate. Having wraith as ichorid food has been huge. I think the deck needs that many creatures for ichorid to eat to stay aggressive.

Pulp_Fiction
02-07-2009, 01:55 PM
@ Joe_C: Yeah, I usually side out Cephalid Sage in nearly every matchup, but he is an essential part of the combo, and I play Dredge, more or less, like a combo deck. Playing 2 gives you better odds of winning faster. Now, if you are referring to, why not play another DR target in that spot since you always side it out, you can. I prefer to just play Sage and try to win on the same turn it is reanimated, but there is nothing wrong with playing something like Angel of Despair in its spot. The problem is, maybe 90% of the time its going to get sided out anyway, so I would just rather go for the win with Sage rather than reanimate a fatty. If you wanted to play a DR target, the best possible creature to play is Woodfall Primus since it has Persist and can potentially take out 2 serious threats like Prison effects or Glacial Chasm.

As far as Sage #2 is concerned, I have really been wanting to take it out and something else and add 2-3 Street Wraiths to the deck in addition to 3 Breakthrough. Working on what to cut, but I am not sure. I really prefer the 7 permanent discard outlets as opposed to 6. I would hate to cut a Tireless Tribe but I may go down to 2 Tribe and 1 Sage and test out 2 Street Wraith in those spots.

Joe_C
02-10-2009, 12:39 PM
@ Joe_C: Yeah, I usually side out Cephalid Sage in nearly every matchup, but he is an essential part of the combo, and I play Dredge, more or less, like a combo deck. Playing 2 gives you better odds of winning faster. Now, if you are referring to, why not play another DR target in that spot since you always side it out, you can. I prefer to just play Sage and try to win on the same turn it is reanimated, but there is nothing wrong with playing something like Angel of Despair in its spot. The problem is, maybe 90% of the time its going to get sided out anyway, so I would just rather go for the win with Sage rather than reanimate a fatty. If you wanted to play a DR target, the best possible creature to play is Woodfall Primus since it has Persist and can potentially take out 2 serious threats like Prison effects or Glacial Chasm.

As far as Sage #2 is concerned, I have really been wanting to take it out and something else and add 2-3 Street Wraiths to the deck in addition to 3 Breakthrough. Working on what to cut, but I am not sure. I really prefer the 7 permanent discard outlets as opposed to 6. I would hate to cut a Tireless Tribe but I may go down to 2 Tribe and 1 Sage and test out 2 Street Wraith in those spots.

If you drop to 1 sage, I would maybe do -1 dread return instead of losing your tribe.

Pulp_Fiction
02-10-2009, 03:43 PM
That is certainly an option, and probably the best card to cut in addition to the Sage, but I am a little scared to go down to 2x Dread Return. I feel that having 3x Dread Return makes the deck a little more consistent in the storm combo matchups (being able to just go for it and succeed). Still, adding in additional draw engines seems like a good plan that may just overshadow the loss of DR. I will certainly test it out.

BreathWeapon
02-12-2009, 04:11 AM
If you guys are cutting Breakthrough then why aren't you playing Brainstorm? With 4 Putrid Imp and 4 Tireless Tribe, Brainstorm is just as good as Breakthrough, and even by itself Brainstorm is playable.

Cutting Tireless Tribes is wrong, you're neutering yourself vs Tormod's Crypt.

Joe_C
02-12-2009, 12:21 PM
If you guys are cutting Breakthrough then why aren't you playing Brainstorm? With 4 Putrid Imp and 4 Tireless Tribe, Brainstorm is just as good as Breakthrough, and even by itself Brainstorm is playable.

Cutting Tireless Tribes is wrong, you're neutering yourself vs Tormod's Crypt.

Brainstorm is only good if you actually have dredgers in your grave. Breakthrough if I ran it was a draw 4 then discard. So if you didnt have any way to pitch your cards in hand, it would be an outlet. I may want to bump my tribe count to 3. I dont want to lose speed and aggression, so taking out wraith wont happen for me. May go -1 return,-1 sage, +1 tribe, +1 breakthrough.

Melchinoir
02-16-2009, 06:16 PM
Hey guys, I've been reading this thread through from the beginning and comparing it to many other threads on various websites on normal LED Dredge. I started out building non-LED Dredge because of budget purposes, but after goldfishing both versions with proxied LEDs, I think (for now) I've decided to stick with non-LED Dredge.

Now, my purpose in posting: I'm having problems trying to fit a certain few cards into my final build, and I'm in need of some advice on how to get these cards in there. My current build looks like this:

Lands: 14
4x Cephalid Coliseum
4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
2x Tarnished Citadel

Discard: 6
4x Putrid Imp
2x Tireless Tribe

Dredge: 11
4x Golgari Grave Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
3x Golgari Thug

Draw: 9
4x Careful Study
2x Breakthrough
3x Street Wraith

Combo Creatures: 10
4x Narcomoeba
4x Ichorid
1x Cephalid Sage
1x Flame-kin Zealot

Graveyard Spells: 10
4x Bridge From Below
3x Dread Return
3x Cabal Therapy



Alright, so that's the current list that I'm working with. Here are the additions that I would like to make, in a fairly "priority-first" order:

1) +1 Cabal Therapy
This absolutely MUST get in there, for fairly obvious reasons.

2) +1 Tireless Tribe
Having played this deck since its inception in Ravica-Time Spiral Standard and then moving into Extended with it before now porting it to Legacy, Tireless Tribe holds huge favor in my mind. It stalls aggro while discarding at the same time. I actually like Tribe better than Imp, but I think we need Imp at 4 no matter what for Ichorid food in the graveyard and for swinging for damage, so I can't interchange the two. I would like 4 Tribes, but thinking about it, that seems impossible so I will settle for 3 (if I can even get that many in).

3) +1 Street Wraith
Just a bit of personal preference, but I do like having a full set of Wraiths.


With that said, there are certain things (many of which I'm seeing on some of the posted builds in this thread) which I want to try and avoid (no sort of priority order here):

1) Drop to 2x Dread Return
As with Pulp, I don't really feel safe dropping below 3x Dread Return; sometimes I find myself wishing for a Dread Return in the yard when I have none even at 3x, I can only imagine how much worse this situation would be with only 2x. However, if someone can provide me with a good argument for REALLY only needing two and if the statistics say that 2x is likely to be enough to consistently get what you need each game, then I could be convinced to do this.

2) Drop Breakthrough off the list
As said before in the thread, Breakthrough works against our "never go all-in and never rape our hands" mentality, but it seems like with our extended manabase (though mine is one lower than everyone else at 14 lands, I got used to playing at 12 lands before so I'm fairly comfortable with the smaller quantity of lands) we should be able to cast Breakthrough for 1 or even 2 if we need to keep certain cards back in our hands; the extra explosiveness of "Dredge 4x" really seems good and has saved me quite a bit in my past playing (though, I did play with more of an all-in mentality before, so my opinion on this could and might be entirely dumb).

3) Drop to 3x Narcomoeba
This, I almost refuse to do. I feel that we really need all the Narcs we can get, not to mention that Thugging a used Narcomoeba back on top of your library for it to come back into play a second time is great fun.

4) Drop to 3x Ichorid
I like me my Ichorids. However, this point is probably the first one I will budge on if required. I just really like my Ichorids. They're Narcomoebas 5 - 8 for me, but since you get multiple uses / sacrifices out of them, I think the playset isn't nearly as required as for Nacomoebas.


One last thing I'm debating on is this: Cephalid Sage Vs. Eternal Witness. I know Witness is not NEARLY as broken in this deck as in LED Dredge and Sage is generally better for us, but the reason I debate this is for sideboarding reasons. I really don't have much tournament experience (though I would like to start and this is my deck of choice for legacy), so my sideboarding skills are probably nil. However, what I'm wondering is, without Witness to recur milled sideboard cards back to your hand, does one find himself not getting the required cards to answer hate often?

That's basically it for me, I'm really eager to hear back from some of the people on here who seem to really know this version of the deck almost inside and out (DeathwingZERO, Pulp Fiction, Joe C, I'm looking at ya'll in particular, though I'll gladly accept help from anyone). Any other suggestions on my deck are also welcome.

Joe_C
02-16-2009, 06:28 PM
Melchinoir: It really depends on what you feel comfortable running. If you took my most recent list and played it for several matches you could see where there are situations where breakthrough would be better than wraith, and situations where wraith is better than breakthrough.

Playing non-LED dredge has it limitations as there is no way to win turn 1. Turn 2 becomes more feasible by running wraith because it dredges for free turn 1 after dropping a imp or tribe, then turn 2 animating ichorid all in one card. I suggest trying out my list with zero breakthrough for awhile. See if you feel comfortable knowing that your turn 2's may not be a huge dredge for 24 cards if you resolve breakthough. Thats the give and take of it. Not running breakthough still allows early wins due to being able to feed ichorid with wraith, but running 2 wraith is sufficent in my opinion, as therapy is just a huge card since it gives meaning to your ichorids dying EOT anyway. Play around with a bunch of configurations and see what fits your style and metagame best. There is no true right or wrong list, unless of course you arent running dredge creatures at all :laugh:

Peace

Melchinoir
02-17-2009, 12:31 AM
Actually I just thought of something else. The OP for the thread said that Deep Analysis basically was terrible without LED and I can see that. However, in my own experience with playtesting, I find that with our high land count, we're pretty much able to get 2 lands into play very consistently. So then, couldn't Deep Analysis possibly be considered for recursion from the graveyard for extra consistency in case we find ourselves dredging into basically nothing or if we really desperately need a draw spell in some dire situation?

Joe_C
02-17-2009, 06:28 AM
Actually I just thought of something else. The OP for the thread said that Deep Analysis basically was terrible without LED and I can see that. However, in my own experience with playtesting, I find that with our high land count, we're pretty much able to get 2 lands into play very consistently. So then, couldn't Deep Analysis possibly be considered for recursion from the graveyard for extra consistency in case we find ourselves dredging into basically nothing or if we really desperately need a draw spell in some dire situation?

I have noticed this also... But: what to take out for it? Deep ananylsis for LEDrid is awesome because lion's eye dumped the dredgers and the analysis in the grave for a one turn whammy at the cost of 3 life. Our manabase eats at out lifetotals more. Also, we can get through hate better than LED dredge,you may want to try putting analysis in the deck, but where are you goin to put it that it doesnt sacrifice utility or speed.

Pulp_Fiction
02-17-2009, 03:55 PM
@Melchinoir: The list looks good. I don't think it would be possible to fit all of those cards in without sacrificing something important. If you really wanted to run that list as it is, I would just cut 1x Ichorid (going down to 3) and then put in Tribe #3. I think Tribe is more important than Cabal Therapy #4. But test out different configurations and see what works. I would not ever cut all of the Breakthroughs in the deck (pre-SB), as I just love the explosiveness. You could potentially cut Careful Study #4 and put in something else. Just test make different cuts and see what works.

Regarding Deep Analysis, I also have wanted to play 1-2 in the deck since it does end up with quite a few lands in play sometimes. But there will be times where it will greatly slow you down and will essentially be a dead card in your hand all the time, especially after a mulligan or two. Deep Analysis is just so situational. I suppose 1x could be tested out in the main, possibly in place of Breakthrough (if playing 3 or more), Careful Study, Ichorid (if playing 4), or Street Wraith. I just think DA opens the deck up to much to counters, and it seems like having additional Street Wraiths would just be better.

On a side note, someone in my meta smashed me in the face with this deck in my local tournament last week in the top 8. They were running both Breakthrough and Street Wraiths. The deck made top 4 (I left after I lost) in a tournament of around 26-28 people. He had the sickest fucking draws I have ever seen with the deck and some highly unlikely dredges. After the game he looked at me and said "I have never had the deck play like that before!!!!!!!!!" I had one turn the first game and lost on turn 2. Then lost on turn 4 the next game after removing 2x Bridges early on!!! It was nuts, sometimes this deck is just that good.

Melchinoir
02-17-2009, 06:49 PM
The thing about Deep Analysis is that, with Street Wraith, it has to be in your hand to get the draw effect. Generally you'll only get 1 Wraith in hand in 40% or 50% of games or so. With Deep Analysis, we want it in our graveyard; running only 1 to 2 Deep Analysis means that it will be in our graveyard to be Flashbacked much, much more often than it will be a dead card in our hand, and even then, we generally will be able to pitch it by any number of means. I don't think Street Wraith is just plain better than Analysis, nor do I think Analysis is a dead card often; they both come into play in somewhat different situations and serve different purposes imo.

The more I think about it, the more it seems like if we employ Deep Analysis, it should be as a pseudo-Cephalid Sage #2; think about it, Sage requires the use of Dread Return, which requires there to be at least 3 creatures on the field to be sacrificed. Generally, that's not too hard to manage for this deck when undisrupted, but there are definitely those times when we will struggle to keep three creatures on the field. Not only that, saccing three creatures is a heavy investment that could totally go for naught if the Dread Return gets countered. If we were to run just 1 Deep Analysis, it not only would be like Sage #2 in that we continue dredging to hopefully combo out and win that turn, but also the cost to flashback (tapping two mana and paying 3 life) is not as huge an investment, so it doesn't put us back as far if the Analysis doesn't resolve. Now, that 3 life could make the difference in some situations, but those situations already look grim regardless. Deep Analysis seems like it would just be a very nice consistency tool at 1 to 2 copies (more likely 1, like Sage). But, as Joe said, what to cut for it? I'm still in the process of playing around with Breakthrough vs. No Breakthrough, and with no Breakthroughs, the deck still runs quite well and I've made some pretty explosive goldfishes still, but I'm still not quite convinced about cutting them entirely.

Aside from that, I have a question for you guys? How often per game are ya'll needing to Therapy on average? I'm trying to see if I really do need that 4th Therapy, because I get at least 2 Therapies into my yard very consistently in goldfishing, and I don't know that I'd need more than that very often. If I CAN stick with 3 Therapies, then that possibly opens up a slot for 1 Deep Analysis if it proves to be good, or something else that I might want to put in.

Joe_C
02-18-2009, 12:30 PM
Aside from that, I have a question for you guys? How often per game are ya'll needing to Therapy on average? I'm trying to see if I really do need that 4th Therapy, because I get at least 2 Therapies into my yard very consistently in goldfishing, and I don't know that I'd need more than that very often. If I CAN stick with 3 Therapies, then that possibly opens up a slot for 1 Deep Analysis if it proves to be good, or something else that I might want to put in.

Needing to therapy? I would therapy any chance you get. Like I said earlier, having therapy makes for your ihcorids EOT death worthwhile for you. Especially with running wraith in the deck to increase your turn 2 ichorid animations. I may consider dropping to 3 careful study and 1 sage and 2 dread return so I can run 3 wraith, 3 tribe, and 1 breakthrough

DeathwingZERO
02-18-2009, 11:14 PM
DA overall just has too much of a situational feel to it for me to want it back in the deck without LED and Breakthrough as 4 of. In order to use it, it has to be discarded (as I'm rarely ever hitting 4 lands), and if that's the case, chances are it's not as good as just digging out the lone Sage, or just plowing through draws with the other blue spells and Wraith.

Between Breakthrough, Careful Study, the discarders, and Wraith, there's already a good and heavy balance of dredge potential. Personally, I don't see any reason to go any further, as far as numbers go, a bad dredge or opening hand is the only way the deck is inconsistent, it's statistically sound otherwise. DA wouldn't really help that, as it needs both the mana, discard outlet, and dredgers to be effective.

I'll also admit I am very aggressive on my mulligans with this build. Because it's already giving up a little speed for consistency, I've found myself going down to 4 cards on occasions just to steer clear of absolute trash hands.

As far as specifics on the list, I'll come back to that after I shuffle it up and mess with it a bit.

mercc
02-19-2009, 09:28 AM
Im trying to choose between LED or NON-LED.

The argument must be:

When playing dredge-combo(led or not). U probably will win game 1, are there games where you lose game 1 because you play the slower non-led version? My guess is you don't.

On to game 2.
Making it more consistent must mean game 2 fights vs. gy-hate gets better?

But what against other combodecks. Is the faster LED-version better because you can "combo" off before he does? How is the non-LED version against combo lika ad nauseum?

slylie
02-19-2009, 10:25 AM
Im trying to choose between LED or NON-LED.

The argument must be:

When playing dredge-combo(led or not). U probably will win game 1, are there games where you lose game 1 because you play the slower non-led version? My guess is you don't.

On to game 2.
Making it more consistent must mean game 2 fights vs. gy-hate gets better?

But what against other combodecks. Is the faster LED-version better because you can "combo" off before he does? How is the non-LED version against combo lika ad nauseum?


The explosiveness of the LED version is awesome, IMO just makes it a better deck. The non-led version stands up a bit better against hate, just because you have more lands to play your anti-hate and hardcast stuff (play the slow aggro game) and what not, but yeh.

DeathwingZERO
02-19-2009, 10:52 AM
As far as I'm concerned, the explosiveness of LED lists means "I can combo out on turn 1 about 8% of the time". At least, that's what I've seen in testing. Aside from that, neither deck is faster than the other in overall speed, and both use pretty much the same methods past the first turn all-in from LED -> Breakthrough -> DA.

I went to the LEDless deck based on both my absolute hate for a combo deck that's fragile, and for the post-board games. Relying on permanent mana sources and consistently needing 2-3 mana on the table (that's not LED), the deck's anti-hate is so much easier to work with.

I'm still not convinced either lists are better than the other, I just know that the way I play combo, I'd rather go with LEDless just to keep the consistency and control.

bum_man
02-27-2009, 12:31 PM
Hey guys, i just finishing building may Led-less Ichorid deck and I like how it plays. I was just planning to build it for fun but I was surprised how competitive it turned out to be.

In my experience of playing the deck so far I am having a really hard time playing against certain boros decks. I played against a BDW deck that plays maindeck fanatics and goblin legionnaires. Come the second game, where i got a beating mainly due to the his sideboard that include, from what i remember, tormods crypts, and shattering sprees for my Needles. He even sided in shushers so that his crypts could go through my chalices set on 0. Im not really sure if may be I was just not playing well enough and i was just overwhelmed by the amount of hate or does the deck really have a hard time dealing with multiple types of hate?

Looking for your thoughts on this match-up.. :confused:

Seriously
02-27-2009, 05:26 PM
so what happened to ichorid, relic of progenitus ? too much hate ? this deck used to be hot and in the DTB all the time, what went wrong ?

bum_man
02-28-2009, 10:30 AM
so what happened to ichorid, relic of progenitus ? too much hate ? this deck used to be hot and in the DTB all the time, what went wrong ?

I'm not really sure, but i think the decline of ichorid was due to it having a hard time dealing with multiple hate cards. Like for example, handling a deck with extirpate, jotun grunt, and crypt all at once; or explosives, echoing truth and relic. There are just so many ways to hate out the deck.

Lately, I've been seeing less and less hate in the sb of most decks. Now is maybe a good time to play deck because of this. It can probably top in a number of instances but i doubt it could dominate like it used too. :confused:

Joe_C
02-28-2009, 10:40 AM
my thoughts are that the non led version is more resistant to hate, even multiple forms of it. But the deck is not widely played due to inconsistency. Even playing the non led version requires mulliganing more often than I like to. Alot of decks are even maindecking relic, which makes it tough. I would say the deck can perform well in certain metagames.

Seriously
02-28-2009, 10:41 AM
I'm not really sure, but i think the decline of ichorid was due to it having a hard time dealing with multiple hate cards. Like for example, handling a deck with extirpate, jotun grunt, and crypt all at once; or explosives, echoing truth and relic. There are just so many ways to hate out the deck.

what deck had/has extirpate, grunt and crypt in it ? it seems most people on this site hate extirpate.

what deck had/has explosives, echoing truth and relic in it ? it seems most people on this site hate echoing truth.


Lately, I've been seeing less and less hate in the sb of most decks. Now is maybe a good time to play deck because of this. It can probably top in a number of instances but i doubt it could dominate like it used too. :confused:

I dont see a lot of decks with dedicated ichorid hate. but ichorid didnt have any answers of its own to the hate or couldnt play around it somehow ? sorry, I dont know much about this deck or how it plays.


But the deck is not widely played due to inconsistency. Even playing the non led version requires mulliganing more often than I like to.

its that bad ?

bum_man
02-28-2009, 11:12 AM
what deck had/has extirpate, grunt and crypt in it ? it seems most people on this site hate extirpate.

what deck had/has explosives, echoing truth and relic in it ? it seems most people on this site hate echoing truth.

I played against a fish deck with EE, truth and relic in it. Its insane @_@




I dont see a lot of decks with dedicated ichorid hate. but ichorid didnt have any answers of its own to the hate or couldnt play around it somehow ? sorry, I dont know much about this deck or how it plays.

They're not all necessarily ichorid dedicated hate, all of these are cards that have at least a significant amount of playability against non-ichorid decks like relic for threshold. The non-led version of the deck is more resilient against hate. It is more capable of playing answers and being in control of the combo better makes it easier to play around hate. The problem is having to sideboard in a lot of cards to counter the opponent's sideboard plan hampers the consistency of the deck too much. The deck just gets overwhelmed sometimes. In one of the games I played, ridiculously enough, i found myself on the D and unable to be aggressive because of a number of problem cards.




its that bad ?

It's not that bad really. But given the non-led version is not as explosive as the led version, having to mulligan for a fast hand is often needed. Like what Joe C said, ichorid could still perform well but only in certain metagames.

DeathwingZERO
02-28-2009, 02:38 PM
Ichorid is the metagame combo deck. If there's not a lot of dedicated slots to hating it out, it will thrive. But when every single matchup plays 8-12 answers to it in the board (a lot of the time intentionally just for the deck itself), it just becomes too much to pilot.

And with the solid consistency (and harder overall to hate) of recent Ad Nauseam charged storm combo decks, Ichorid is just lurking waiting on certain tournaments to break out in.

Personally, I don't think it will ever hold the DtB status for very long, but it's still that dangerous deck that will come back out of nowhere and sweep something, then go back into hiding again. I'll always have a version of it together for this very reason.

That's my take on it at least.

Seriously
02-28-2009, 03:32 PM
Ichorid is the metagame combo deck. If there's not a lot of dedicated slots to hating it out, it will thrive. But when every single matchup plays 8-12 answers to it in the board (a lot of the time intentionally just for the deck itself), it just becomes too much to pilot.

And with the solid consistency (and harder overall to hate) of recent Ad Nauseam charged storm combo decks, Ichorid is just lurking waiting on certain tournaments to break out in.

Personally, I don't think it will ever hold the DtB status for very long, but it's still that dangerous deck that will come back out of nowhere and sweep something, then go back into hiding again. I'll always have a version of it together for this very reason.

That's my take on it at least.

ages ago and until somewhat recently, I always saw ichorid in the DTB section. I saw the cards to build it for pretty cheap on ebay and considered doing that. however, I thought I would ask around first because the last time I did that, I built a suicide black, which turned out to be made of fail. so Im a little wary of building cheap decks, as they dont always have the answers that $200+ decks have.

I dont have a great meta and Im trying to get some legacy going. there are a few legacy decks around, just not many. so I would have to loan out decks to friends and such, to have enough players for a tournament. I just dont have enough decks to go around. so Im trying to build some more, but Im broke, so it kind of sucks. I want everyone to play against good decks, and not loan out autolose jank shit.

bum_man
03-01-2009, 01:08 PM
ages ago and until somewhat recently, I always saw ichorid in the DTB section. I saw the cards to build it for pretty cheap on ebay and considered doing that. however, I thought I would ask around first because the last time I did that, I built a suicide black, which turned out to be made of fail. so Im a little wary of building cheap decks, as they dont always have the answers that $200+ decks have.

I dont have a great meta and Im trying to get some legacy going. there are a few legacy decks around, just not many. so I would have to loan out decks to friends and such, to have enough players for a tournament. I just dont have enough decks to go around. so Im trying to build some more, but Im broke, so it kind of sucks. I want everyone to play against good decks, and not loan out autolose jank shit.

Non-Led Ichorid is relatively cheap while at the same time competitive. This is one of the reasons why I chose to build this deck. If you're planning to build cheap decks that could do well, this deck has to be one of them. Other decks you could consider are merfolk and faeries. They're relatively cheap (except for the set of mutavaults). They are also competitive, just recently a Legacy version of the extended deck Next Level Blue won a legacy tournament here.

Pulp_Fiction
03-01-2009, 02:50 PM
I never really thought of this deck as a budget deck but I guess it is. I always just thought of it as a vicious fucking combo deck that can win VIA aggro and is immune to almost any disruption that isn't graveyard based. I am not sure why anyone would think of the deck as inconsistent. Out of the 6 tournaments I have taken it to at my local card shop, each time with fields of 20+ people, it has made top 8 everytime and made it to a top 4 split 5/6 times! Out of all of the tournament games played with this deck I have mulliganed into oblivion twice and I still won one of those games after drawing Tribe to block Goyf and GGT right afterwards!! If you are afraid to mulligan put this deck down immediately and play something else. I rarely ever keep a 7 card hand with Dredge. Naturally assume you are not going to Dredge into what you need and aim to keep hands with: land, discard outlet, dredger. Thats all I aim to keep and I mull until I have something like that!

As far as fighting against hate, this deck laughs at the opponent who has just a Tormod's Crypt in play (unless you mulled to like 4). However, when they have Grunt, Crypt, and Relic in play ...... this is winnable but it is not looking good. Out of all the hate I would prefer to see Grunt the most. Just stop doing stuff till the Grunt dies then start going nuts. Drop Tribe and block till Grunt is gone. You can also cast your stupid creatures like Narcomoeba and attack/block. Hopefully reach 3 mana and throw Stinky into play! But being a combo deck sometimes you can just win before the opponent can do anything! If you are confused about fighting through hate and what to SB read the opening post and if you have further questions post them. BUT read the OP, it has a lot of answers to the questions being asked.

Ciberon
03-03-2009, 10:20 AM
I once won a tournament with this. Totally unprepared meta. However, recently everybody got a hold of tormods and I believe some got relic of progenitus and leylines (mostly tormods, though). What would you advice me for the sb?

Unknown2
03-03-2009, 12:09 PM
needle on tormod or relic is a great SB option.

DeathwingZERO
03-03-2009, 12:30 PM
My SB slots for anti-artifact hate depend on the metagame:

Needle:
Any time I see just Relic, or there's Relic and a combination of Factories, AEther Vials, Crypts, and other activated-only effects

Chalice:
Any time I see mostly Crypt, or storm combo + Crypt + anything else cheap.

Chalice can be set @ 1 a lot of times without hindering the deck as much as people think. Especially if it is discard creature turn 1, Chalice @ 1 turn 2. It's a huge benefit LEDless versions have being able to support 14-15 lands.

Typically, my SB is:

4 Chain of Vapor
4 Chalice/Needle
4 Mystical Tutor (sometimes Enlightened if I really need the artifacts over the bounce)
3 Unmask

I try not to do anything fancy with the board. It's there solely for me to answer a specific threat, and the rest of the deck plays through singleton pieces of hate on it's own.

Chain is basically the MVP, going for anything when needed, especially Void effects (Leyline, Planar, and Samurai of the Pale Curtain). Mystical digs for it, without it going to my hand to be discarded (and 4 Street Wraith make for easy and "free" pickings without losing crucial draw spells). Chalice and Needle are there to protect me from random crap, and Unmask is helpful against both combo and dedicated control lists.

bum_man
03-04-2009, 10:46 AM
My SB slots for anti-artifact hate depend on the metagame:

Needle:
Any time I see just Relic, or there's Relic and a combination of Factories, AEther Vials, Crypts, and other activated-only effects

Chalice:
Any time I see mostly Crypt, or storm combo + Crypt + anything else cheap.

Chalice can be set @ 1 a lot of times without hindering the deck as much as people think. Especially if it is discard creature turn 1, Chalice @ 1 turn 2. It's a huge benefit LEDless versions have being able to support 14-15 lands.

Typically, my SB is:

4 Chain of Vapor
4 Chalice/Needle
4 Mystical Tutor (sometimes Enlightened if I really need the artifacts over the bounce)
3 Unmask

I try not to do anything fancy with the board. It's there solely for me to answer a specific threat, and the rest of the deck plays through singleton pieces of hate on it's own.

Chain is basically the MVP, going for anything when needed, especially Void effects (Leyline, Planar, and Samurai of the Pale Curtain). Mystical digs for it, without it going to my hand to be discarded (and 4 Street Wraith make for easy and "free" pickings without losing crucial draw spells). Chalice and Needle are there to protect me from random crap, and Unmask is helpful against both combo and dedicated control lists.

Question. I am also a big fan of Chain as a necessity for an ichorid sideboard. Chain for me is good only in getting rid of opposing propaganda effects that stop you from winning now. Wont removal spells like wispmare or firestorm be better options for dealing with hate like leyline or samurai of the pale curtain? The bounce potentially give the deck one more turn but how about cards like samurai, planar void or wheel of sun and moon which only gets recasted the next turn of the opponent? I assume you bounce the opposing hate card on your opponents end turn before going off? :confused:

alderon666
03-04-2009, 05:59 PM
The problem is, if you don't know what kind of hate the opponent is bringing you can always side in Chain of Vapor. It'll only deal with it one time, but you can normally EOT Chain the hate and go off on your turn.

Chain of Vapor also buys time against jank like reanimator, or hell even Dreadnought (rarely, as they just counter everything).

Versatile Weaker Answer >>> Narrow Stronger Answer

DeathwingZERO
03-05-2009, 12:17 PM
Question. I am also a big fan of Chain as a necessity for an ichorid sideboard. Chain for me is good only in getting rid of opposing propaganda effects that stop you from winning now. Wont removal spells like wispmare or firestorm be better options for dealing with hate like leyline or samurai of the pale curtain? The bounce potentially give the deck one more turn but how about cards like samurai, planar void or wheel of sun and moon which only gets recasted the next turn of the opponent? I assume you bounce the opposing hate card on your opponents end turn before going off? :confused:

Bounce is cast either the turn before or the turn you will go off, all depending on the mana you need to do so. The deck plays like storm combo for games 2 and 3, you sculpt the perfect hand while you assess and play around their hate, and steamroll them when it's taken care of.

There's no need to destroy something when it just needs to be removed from play. The deck is such a wrecking ball that when holding a hand of 7, and 1 or 2 of them are your removal, you are pretty much going to win off those other cards.

Pulp_Fiction
03-05-2009, 06:06 PM
I took this to my local tournament last night and went 2-1-2 after 5 rounds:

4x Careful Study
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Putrid Imp
4x Bridge from Below
4x Narcomoeba
3x Tireless Tribe
3x Ichorid
3x Darkblast
3x Breakthrough
3x Cabal Therapy
2x Dread Return
2x Street Wraith
1x Cephalid Sage
1x Flame-Kin Zealot

4x Cephalid Colisseum
4x Gemstone Mine
4x City of Brass
2x Tarnished Citadel
1x Undiscovered Paradise

SB
4x Wispmare
4x Pithing Needle
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Chain of Vapor

Short report on what happened.

Round 1: Mono-black discard:

game 1: I get off to a slow start and lose after he drops turn 3 Ensnaring Bridge with 1 card in hand ......

game 2: SB in CoV and ravage him on turn 3.

game 3: Same as game 2.

Round 2: Zoo

game 1: Kill him on turn 2.

game 2: I dredge like pure shit and lose to Jitte after a mull to 5.

game 3: Kill him on turn 4.

Round 3: U/G/b Survival

game 1: Kill him on turn 7 with shit tons of zombies after a mull to 6 and horrible dredges.

game 2: Here is where my bad luck kicks in and doesn't let go. He gets triple Relic of Progenitus, double Engineered Plague and Deed after I mull to 5. Yep this went bad.

game 3: Not really like a real game, I mull to 5 and keep a no-lander with Street Wraith (the hand was fucking amazing if I hit a land). I don't hit a land until turn 8, which is when I die.

Round 4: U/G/w Thresh

game 1: Bad luck continues to plague me. I keep a 6 card hand and after milling 24 cards from my deck I have a single Ichorid, Bridge, and Cabal Therapy in the yard .... I hate luck.

game 2: I mull to 4 and barely pull it out after a long and hard fought battle. The final play he dropped an EE for 0 and I had 4 zombies in play and a Narcomoeba. I reanimate 2 Ichorids and sac 3 zombies to flashback DReturn on FKZ and swing for lethal, he has to kill the lone zombie token or die, he blows up EE and EOT I get a shit ton of zombies. I win the game at 1 life!

game 3: I hate luck so bad. Again I mull to fucking 4 cards and keep a shitty hand. I was about to lose in turns but we ended up drawing.

Round 5: Mono-U Progenitus Landstill

This is one of my buddies and after talking a little neither of us really want to play. Its a good matchup for me but I am tired, really fucking frustrated, and and I need a cigarette really bad. So we agree to draw. I get my cigarette and hang out and play some type 4 for a little while.

Overall I was just really frustrated. Dredge can really fuck with you after a while. I was dredging like pure shit and I kept a grand total of two 7 card hands the entire night. It was very disappointing. I went to to 5 cards about 4 or 5 times, mulled to 4 twice in the same favorable matchup, and what pisses me off is there was nothing I could do. I also was not feeling the Street Wraiths in the place of Dread Return #3 and Sage #2. I think I will go back to my original list. It was just a bad night, but it is actually incredible to see just how good the deck can be when your luck is that bad! Come to think of it, I played Breakthrough once the entire night and I didn't even dredge off of it, I drew 4 card and discarded 3! This was the worst I have ever seen the deck perform and potentially it could have gone 3-1-1! Then again, I also could have just mulled into nothing again, which is what I had been doing all fucking night.

DeathwingZERO
03-06-2009, 01:19 PM
I think with the inclusion of Street Wraith it has to follow an all or nothing sort of thing. I don't see much viability of the card if it's less than a 4 of, because it needs to be seen in the opening grip, or on the draw, to be most effective. If you don't see it in the opening hand, it's really just more Ichorid fodder, and not really living up to it's potential.

Do you think keeping 3 Darkblast in the main was a good idea? I've always liked having the Thug simply for being able to recur Narc's and chump block all day in bad situations.

Are the 4 Wispmare necessary in your meta in addition to the CoV? I didn't see much about your sideboarding other than CoV coming in a few times.

Most of the questions about your build are pretty much entirely based on your meta, so I guess knowing what you've been seeing recently would be helpful in determining if there's any changes needing to be tested.

Pulp_Fiction
03-06-2009, 04:47 PM
It was just a test, I was trying a new build and I was not impressed. It probably is 4 SW or none at all. As far as SB goes, all meta. Wispmare is sided in against Leyline which I see in mass and I have cast CoV on Leyline, then failed to combo off and seen it recast VIA Dark Ritual enough times that I play Wispmare. Also great against stacks, it avoids CotV@1 and removes those Ghostly Prisons! Plus it can be reanimated late game in a very tight spot.

Chain I only side in against people who I have no idea what they are playing or against creature based hate like Jailer.

I have played Thug in the Darkblast spot and I dont like it. Darkblast is spectacular, especially in a meta filled with Goblins! It acts as its own discard outlet a lot of the time and really fucks up your opponent's first turn drops like Birds, Lackey, Fanatic, etc, and is spectacular in the mirror match.

For now I am just going to revert back to my original build in the OP. That is the most consistent list I have played. I really want to add SW into it but I just don't see how it can work. Just not enough space to fit in 4 and based on the deck's performance last night 2 is not the way to go.

Joe_C
03-06-2009, 05:14 PM
I have been running 3 street wraith in my build(although I do not run breakthrough) and have been happy with that number. I dont like having it in my opening hand without a discard outlet since it makes mulliganning alot harder. Getting one into your hand off a turn 1 study is good. I feel good running 3

bum_man
03-09-2009, 10:42 AM
I have been running 3 street wraith in my build(although I do not run breakthrough) and have been happy with that number. I dont like having it in my opening hand without a discard outlet since it makes mulliganning alot harder. Getting one into your hand off a turn 1 study is good. I feel good running 3

Street Wraith is a good card without a doubt. I guess it's a play preference or metagame call for you to not run breakthroughs but aren't you missing breakthrough's explosiveness? I tried running only 2 breakthrough with 3 Wraiths, sad to say i find that the deck doesn't win fast enough. I lost a few games that i should've won given i had more breakthroughs and the 2nd Sage. You're winning with it so I guess it is that good.

Joe_C
03-18-2009, 12:29 PM
This really just makes absolutely no sense to me. Why would you want to give up one of the most attractive parts of Ichorid - winning the first game quickly? In the postboard games, you can side out LED and Deep Analysis if you want a more consistent deck to fight hate. Look at EPIC Painter for example: the deck runs a cheap combo to win an easy game one, then boards into a better aggro-control deck with Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker.

If you're really bent on this idea, I think running 4 Cabal Therapy, 4 Unmask, and 4 Dread Return (because, you know, you feel it's rather crucial) would make a lot of sense. I also think running a large dude, such as Empyrial Archangel, Simic Sky Swallower, or Akroma, Angel of Fury, instead of Flame-Kin Zealot could be beneficial. Running a slower version of Ichorid means Landstill, Dreadstill, and Thresh get Engineered Explosives active by the time you get to combo. Zombie tokens rather fragile compared to big guys that are hard to remove.

I just want to point out that this NAY SAYER Just Top 8'd with this deck this past weekend.... You've been Called out Jaynel!!!!!!!!!!!

Report!!!!!:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

DeathwingZERO
03-19-2009, 08:05 AM
I'd like to see his list. Advocating for 4 Therapy, Unmask, AND Dread Return just seems really......packed tight. I had to cut Unmask to the SB, and I fell 4 Dread Return is just too much dead stuff in the hand (as I only need 1 to win, 2 if I can't get down far enough without Sage). I'd like to see if that is actually what he played.

Joe_C
03-19-2009, 12:23 PM
I'd like to see his list. Advocating for 4 Therapy, Unmask, AND Dread Return just seems really......packed tight. I had to cut Unmask to the SB, and I fell 4 Dread Return is just too much dead stuff in the hand (as I only need 1 to win, 2 if I can't get down far enough without Sage). I'd like to see if that is actually what he played.

i know he was running unmask, not sure if he was running the playset. His mana base was 3 Ctiy, 4 Colesium, 4 Mine, 2 Paradise. Seemed to work well for him... Im not sure of his matchups throughout the day. I am hoping to draw his attention back to the thread to talk about it.... I doubt he was running 4 return. He had 2 tribe in his build as far as I saw...

claudio.r
03-21-2009, 03:23 PM
Been to a tournament earlier today, and man, did i got my ass kicked. I'm thinking right now "have to build a deck that don't lose to random.dec". So i'm inclined to build a ledless version of ichorid. Any thoughts or recomendations ? What should i get first and some tips on playing the thing ?

thx
Cláudio

Pulp_Fiction
03-21-2009, 04:00 PM
Page 1 on the thread. Read primer.

Jaynel
03-21-2009, 04:01 PM
Here's what I ran:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
3 City of Brass
2 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Putrid Imp
2 Tireless Tribe
4 Breakthrough
3 Careful Study

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Unmask
3 Dread Return

1 Flame-kin Zealot
1 Cephalid Sage

Sideboard:
4 Pithing Needle
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Ingot Chewer
1 Wispmare
3 Chain of Vapor
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Bogardan Hellkite

Played against Dragon Stompy (2-0), NOThresh (2-1), Dragon Stompy (2-1), then drew the last two rounds into top 8. Lost to Brassman Blue in the top 8.

Some thoughts:
Chalice sat in my sideboard all day being pretty useless. Relic is a beating. Unmask was medicore, but I can see it being good.

Trinket Mage aggro-control seems like a really tough match to me. I punted game 1 in the top 8: I Unmask him turn 2, seeing fetch, fetch, dual, Force, CB, Trinket Mage. I take the Trinket Mage, then have my Careful Study countered by Force and just never get rolling (a Counterbalance lands and blind flips get me, followed by Tarmogoyf beatings). I guess taking the Force is the right call, then hope to dredge into Narcomoeba + Therapy the next turn?

Games 2 and 3 are rough, especially now that most lists are splitting Relic and Crypt, making Pithing Needle harder to use.

I had 2 (I think) turn 2 wins (turn 1 Putrid Imp/Tireless Tribe, turn 2 Breakthough), so the deck can still win pretty quickly. Having more lands is really effective postboard to reliably cast spells (and Breakthrough with x>0 is pretty fucking awesome).

The tournament was pretty inconclusive and I haven't tested the deck much otherwise. So I'm not really sure whether this or LED Ichorid is better.

Joe_C
03-22-2009, 11:32 AM
Dredge
Richard Feldman
Grand Prix-Chicago
4 gemstone mine
4 city of brass
3 tarnished citadel
4 cephalid coliseum
4 putrid imp
4 tireless tribe
4 careful study
4 breakthrough
4 golgari grave-troll
4 stinkweed imp
4 golgari thug
4 narcomoeba
4 bridge from below
2 dread return
1 flame-kin zealot
3 cabal therapy
3 ichorid
Sideboard
4 pithing needle
4 leyline of the void
4 pyrite spellbomb
1 akroma, angel of wrath
1 ichorid
1 darkblast

this interesting list made day 2 of the GP... Noone noticed? Interesting board! Seemed to treat him well enough though to make it to day 2..

No cephalid sage, 4 tireless tribe.... Does he post on here? Id like to hear about his matchups.....

Muradin
03-22-2009, 04:59 PM
I actually just don't get why he is playing pyrite spell bomb... As s solution to problematic utility creatures? I guess there are better alternatives...

Parcher
03-22-2009, 05:58 PM
Yes, that list made Day 2 at the Grand Prix. And won a total of eight matches during both days. So, uh......yeah. Congrats on breaking tne 50% win ratio.

Joe_C
04-05-2009, 01:53 AM
Somewhat inspired by Jaynel's top 8 version here is the list ive been pumelling face with over the past week:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Putrid Imp
2 Tireless Tribe
4 Breakthrough
3 Careful Study

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Unmask
3 Dread Return

1 Flame-kin Zealot
1 Cephalid Sage

Sideboard:
4 Pithing Needle
2 ancient grudge
2 darkblast
1 ancestors chosen
2 wispmare
2 chain of vapor
1 ray of revelation
1 unmask

has been running smoothly so far. I would love to squeeze in study #4 and 1 more land, but its so tight, and i like unmask as a 2 of in those perfect situations where it allows you to do mean things to your opponent

Dr.AgOn
04-05-2009, 05:40 AM
how about playing the tireless tribe / about face combo and winning on turn 2?
The opponent starts, so you can draw a card, otherwise it won't work on turn two. You play Tireless Tribe, Turn two you draw a card, discard 5, making Tribe a 1/21, play About Face and attack ftw.

It's only a 2 card combo and the drawback of discarding your hand doesn't really matter.

Joe_C
04-06-2009, 06:32 AM
how about playing the tireless tribe / about face combo and winning on turn 2?
The opponent starts, so you can draw a card, otherwise it won't work on turn two. You play Tireless Tribe, Turn two you draw a card, discard 5, making Tribe a 1/21, play About Face and attack ftw.

It's only a 2 card combo and the drawback of discarding your hand doesn't really matter.

Because About face does nothing to further the normal gameplan of dredge, sure it could steal a game or two here and there, but is weak against counter and spot removal. We dont need our tribe getting stp'd or blocked and having it die leaving us with no hand and no discard outlet.

bum_man
04-10-2009, 01:36 PM
Somewhat inspired by Jaynel's top 8 version here is the list ive been pumelling face with over the past week:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Putrid Imp
2 Tireless Tribe
4 Breakthrough
3 Careful Study

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Unmask
3 Dread Return

1 Flame-kin Zealot
1 Cephalid Sage

Sideboard:
4 Pithing Needle
2 ancient grudge
2 darkblast
1 ancestors chosen
2 wispmare
2 chain of vapor
1 ray of revelation
1 unmask

has been running smoothly so far. I would love to squeeze in study #4 and 1 more land, but its so tight, and i like unmask as a 2 of in those perfect situations where it allows you to do mean things to your opponent

Have you tried taking out 1 ichorid for the 4th study? I think the 4th study is more important than the 4th ichorid because it helps in pulling-off the combo. From my experience with the deck, 3 Ichorids are enough for the last resort aggro plan and careful study is a very powerful card especially post-board due to its ability to find sb cards. That's my thoughts on it anyway.

Just curious about your ancestor's chosen in the sideboard. In what match-ups do you usually side it in? Red match-ups? Aggro? and what do you usually side-out for it? I assume you trade-out FKZ for Ancestor's Chosen since you expect that you won't be winning via a one-turn zombie rush.

Joe_C
04-11-2009, 01:18 AM
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
2 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
3 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug

4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return

1 Flame-kin Zealot
1 Cephalid Sage

Sideboard:
4 Pithing Needle
2 ancient grudge
3 darkblast
1 ancestors chosen
2 wispmare
2 chain of vapor
1 ray of revelation

This is my most recent version. Ive given up on pretty much trying to beat combo, not too many people play it in my area since there is a lot of counterbalance around so me disregarding that matchup normally isnt such a big deal. Bumping thug up to 4 has been nice, its an extra snack for ichorid and more dredgers never hurts. I also found room for study #4 and the 3rd tribe, and another land which makes my turn 1 plays alot stronger. As to ancestors chosen, it comes in against combo since the life gain puts you way out of normal tendrils range and also against aggro like goblins or goyf sligh, and burn. What I take out is dependant on the matchup, falme kin can get you a turn 2 win so I probably would rarely board that out unless I know I need to play the slow dredge game and grind it out

bum_man
04-12-2009, 02:40 PM
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
2 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
3 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug

4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return

1 Flame-kin Zealot
1 Cephalid Sage

Sideboard:
4 Pithing Needle
2 ancient grudge
3 darkblast
1 ancestors chosen
2 wispmare
2 chain of vapor
1 ray of revelation

This is my most recent version. Ive given up on pretty much trying to beat combo, not too many people play it in my area since there is a lot of counterbalance around so me disregarding that matchup normally isnt such a big deal. Bumping thug up to 4 has been nice, its an extra snack for ichorid and more dredgers never hurts. I also found room for study #4 and the 3rd tribe, and another land which makes my turn 1 plays alot stronger. As to ancestors chosen, it comes in against combo since the life gain puts you way out of normal tendrils range and also against aggro like goblins or goyf sligh, and burn. What I take out is dependant on the matchup, falme kin can get you a turn 2 win so I probably would rarely board that out unless I know I need to play the slow dredge game and grind it out

How often do dredge into something lethal using only one dredge engine (ie. breakthrough, etc.)? Aren't you having difficulty dredging into something lethal without using sage for more gas? I used to run a list very similar to yours which i later modified to include an additional return and sage to be able to raise the percentages of having been able to dredge into a return and sage which could help me dredge more in case my graveyard isn't lethal yet. In testing, running out of gas a couple of times resulted in my opponent being able to recover (ie crypt and relic me X_X) I've been testing your list and so far its been golden.

Joe_C
04-12-2009, 06:50 PM
Bum_man: what do you mean by- "Aren't you having difficulty dredging into something lethal without using sage for more gas?" I run a single sage in the deck, and more so than with LED Ichorid, one of the most solid ways to win is having ichorid come on the board and die EOT or get sacced for a therapy and beating with zombies for a few turns. The version I am running is more focused on getting a permanent discard outlet on board since I am running 4 Imp, 3 Tribe and 4 study to help me dig for an Imp or Tribe turn 1. Having a permanent outlet is huge in this deck. I may want to bump my breakthroughs back up to 4 since I am running a playset of Imps and 3 tribe. Turn 1 Imp/tribe with a next turn dredge draw step followed by breakthrough is quite often a win. I do have some debate over how many dread returns I should run, my thoughts on it are: What would I rather see every game? :

1. A turn 1 Imp/tribe?
2. If I run another return, how often is that 1 card going to be in my grave at the same time I have 3 creatures to sacrifice?
3. The 2nd sage: would I rather have another black creature like my 4th thug to feed ichorid with and possibly be the key dredge card I need off of a breakthrough to get into a kill?

I like having turn 1 Imp/Tribe over another return/sage. It may change in the future, but those are my thoughts on it at the moment. Also, my board is getting manipulated a bit:

4 Pithing Needle
2 Ingot Chewer
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Firestorm
2 Wispmare
1 Ancestor's Chosen

Bum_man, have you been testing my most recent list? What have you played against? Are you playing an exact replica or do you have some flex slots?

e1567
04-12-2009, 07:36 PM
Played against Dragon Stompy (2-0), NOThresh (2-1), Dragon Stompy (2-1), then drew the last two rounds into top 8. Lost to Brassman Blue in the top 8.



So quick question, How many people were in this tourny and what place did you get. I am just curious because this is the first time in a while I have heard this deck put up some serious results.

Jaynel
04-12-2009, 09:11 PM
So quick question, How many people were in this tourny and what place did you get. I am just curious because this is the first time in a while I have heard this deck put up some serious results.

It was 26ish people. I then got 9th at Hadley playing a similar list, but in a field of 51 (?) players.

bum_man
04-13-2009, 11:11 AM
Bum_man: what do you mean by- "Aren't you having difficulty dredging into something lethal without using sage for more gas?" I run a single sage in the deck, and more so than with LED Ichorid, one of the most solid ways to win is having ichorid come on the board and die EOT or get sacced for a therapy and beating with zombies for a few turns. The version I am running is more focused on getting a permanent discard outlet on board since I am running 4 Imp, 3 Tribe and 4 study to help me dig for an Imp or Tribe turn 1. Having a permanent outlet is huge in this deck. I may want to bump my breakthroughs back up to 4 since I am running a playset of Imps and 3 tribe. Turn 1 Imp/tribe with a next turn dredge draw step followed by breakthrough is quite often a win.

In playing with your list, I also had them turn 1 imp/tribe then turn 2 dredge on draw with breakthrough. Its very explosive but in some cases the stuff i dredge into doesn’t have the resources to kill now. Either i lack a bridge, a narc, a return or an FKZ. To solve this i added the 3rd return and 2nd sage. These let me start the engine up again in case my breakthrough isn't lethal now. In case, i can't win now given my graveyard, i could just return a sage to dredge more and hopefully get enough resources that i need to win. Raising the sage and return count gives me better chances of doing this. Like what Pulp_Fiction mentioned in the opening post, this helps you get to the bottom of your library faster, something the deck really lacks with the removal of the LED engine.


I do have some debate over how many dread returns I should run, my thoughts on it are: What would I rather see every game? :

1. A turn 1 Imp/tribe?
2. If I run another return, how often is that 1 card going to be in my grave at the same time I have 3 creatures to sacrifice?
3. The 2nd sage: would I rather have another black creature like my 4th thug to feed ichorid with and possibly be the key dredge card I need off of a breakthrough to get into a kill?

I like having turn 1 Imp/Tribe over another return/sage. It may change in the future, but those are my thoughts on it at the moment.
A turn 1 imp/tribe is very important to the deck that is why I run a 4/3 configuration also in my list. In my list, I run +3 darkblast, +1 breakthrough in place of 4 golgari thugs. My meta plays a lot of fantics, jailers, etc. that is why im comfortable with my md darkblasts. As of now, I’m not having a hard time finding creatures sac’d to return. Your deck runs 4 thugs that are creatures that can casted easily, this give you 4 more possible creatures for return. With an imp and possibly a thug, you only have to dredge for either a narc, or a therapy and two bridges, both which wouldn’t be so hard to achieve. The thugs make returning for sage a more possible play. I’m actually thinking of running thugs now.
My list also has -1 Ichorid, -1 therapy for +1 Return, +1 Sage, apart from the breakthrough and blasts for thugs. I play dredge for its combo more than the ichorid gameplan. I usually play against decks that I must race to win, that Is why im more fixated on the combo rather than the aggro plan. For me, the sages play a very crucial role in how the Ledless Dredge works. In LED dredge, sage only plays a minor role, it is somewhat only the “emergency” engine. You usually go for it after the breakthrough, LED, DA combo if your graveyard still don’t have resources to win. In LEDless Dredge however, sage plays a much bigger role. Sage makes up for the dredging power lost when we gave up running the LED-DA engine. Without the dredging power of sage, LEDless decks would just look like LED Dredge without the LEDs and DA. For me, I win off sage more times than I do through breakthrough, its been that good to me. For me, I run zero thugs and Im having no problems finding dredgers or ichorid food. Its probably more of personal preference and my meta that gave way for me playing the deck that way. I just prefer the combo over the last resort ichorid beatdown approach. If I remember correctly your meta has a lot of blue and very few combo. Your build is great against that meta. The combo is something that your opponents will never allow so having a great ichorid game is solid. The ichorid beatdown is probably unstoppable for blue decks that don’t run propaganda effects.

Bum_man, have you been testing my most recent list? What have you played against? Are you playing an exact replica or do you have some flex slots?
When I first grabbed the deck my list exactly looks like yours except for 3 blasts for 3 thugs, I also play tarnished citadel. I played against 2 red decks, a landstill, a welder deck, a belcher, and rock; I went 1-5 possibly 4-2 or better, if not a number of errors that caused by some games. I lost against the welder deck, landstill and burn deck mainly because the deck ran out of gas. I was able to breakthrough on turn 2 against the red deck but i all I got was crap, I think had 2 narcs but only 1 bridge 1 return and no sage. he was able to cast an ensnaring bridge on his turn. He finished me off before I could get my answer. Against the landstill deck I was able to resolve a breakthrough again that dredged crap, I was lacking a sage this time and FKZ was no where in sight. He was able to clasm my tokens. I tried to combo-out again but my attempts were all countered. My Ichorid beats got blocked by a recurring factory some got burned. I ran out of ichorid food then. These games were supposedly very good match-ups. The deck dredged badly but in my opinion it just wasn’t able to dredge enough. Those games would’ve turned out differently had I’ve been able to dredge deeper into my deck. Then I retuned my deck to running 2 sages and 3 returns. This gave me more stability relative to the speed and more importantly, dredging power. Sage is like the NOS tank in race cars, it breaks limits that the deck is confined to given just a dredge from a breakthrough etc. You should try Sage in your meta and see if he makes your deck go apeshit. Sage wins.

Joe_C
04-13-2009, 12:28 PM
Bum_man: I was palying with 2 sage/3 return and I may do so again. There are just so many options for quantities of certain cards and in certain situations having one more of one particular card can make the difference, and there are instances where the card you cut would have been better. Im thinking 4 study is definitely needed along with 7 Imp effects. Breakthrough is awesome as we all know, but 4 seems excessive since we cant cast it effectively turn 1. Im bouncing so many things around, I will most likely play this deck this weekend in a tournament. I will discuss list and results afterwards. For the moment I will be manipulating the deck this way and that to see what seems the most relaible

bum_man
04-13-2009, 12:42 PM
Very well said. I may cut that 4th breakthrough for the 4th therapy, i usually interchange them before tournaments depending on what decks i think will be around. I'll be looking forward to hearing your positive results.

Pulp_Fiction
04-13-2009, 12:50 PM
I took this list to my local tournament last wednesday and lost out in the top 8 again due to solid fucking luck. Here is the list I played:

4x Careful Study
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Putrid Imp
4x Bridge from Below
4x Narcomoeba
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Tireless Tribe
3x Ichorid
3x Dread Return
3x Darkblast
3x Breakthrough
2x Cephalid Sage
1x Flame-Kin Zealot

4x Cephalid Colisseum
4x Gemstone Mine
4x City of Brass
2x Tarnished Citadel

SB
4x Wispmare
4x Pithing Needle
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Chain of Vapor

Here is a short tournament report on what happened:

Round 1 - Counterslivers (2-1)
g1- Turn 3 kill
g2 - I see double relic and die on turn 6 to double muscle slivers
g3 - Same as game 1

Round 2 - Goyf Sligh (2-0)
g1- I Darkblast his turn 1 Mogg fanatic and win on turn 4 easily.
g2 - I dredge like shit but destroy his hand and combo off on turn 6.

Round 3 - Aggro Loam (2-0)
g1 - I dredge like pure shit after blowing up CC and am in trouble after a turn 2 Terravore that is bigger than a 10/10. I eventually dredge into Dread Return and reanimate the Sage for a turn 4 win at 2 life!
g2- Ravage him on turn 2-4.

Round 4 - U/G Turbo Fog Garbage
g1 - I destroy him on turn 7-8.
g2 - Didn't know his deck had Propaganda .... I lose to double Relic and double Propaganda.
g3 - After Wispmare comes in it gets a little easier, he only draws 1 Relic and can't deal with 12ish zombie tokens swinging every turn.

Top 8
Round 5 - Same matchup as round 4 Turbo Fog
g1- Destroyed again on turn 4-6
g2 - I dredge like pure shit and get triple Relic played against me
g3 - Again, dredge like pure shit, I would have won had I not dredged into 3x Wispmare and 3x Cabal therapy within the first 20 cards. And lose cause I had to save Cabal Therapy and Wispmare. It should be noted that I had the yard removed 3 times and still almost won.

This terrible deck ran Cryptic Command, Moment's Peace, Propaganda, Shackles, Crucible of Worlds, CONSTANT FUCKING MIST, and Eternal Witness. He would bounce Pithing Needles and then Relic me, but either way it was bullshit, I should have won game 3.

I am very happy with 14 lands and the 4th Therapy. The build is the exact same as the OP except for this change.

Surging Chaos
04-13-2009, 02:43 PM
A quick question; how do you shuffle your deck in between games? Usually what I do is a 7-pile shuffle to make sure the dredgers get split up really well (because they'll be together after the game you played).

If you do shuffle your deck efficiently, then I really don't know what else to say other than play Ray of Revelation over Wispmare since it isn't a dead card in your graveyard (since you did say in g3 in the top 8 you dredged 3 Wispmares into your graveyard).

bum_man
04-13-2009, 03:25 PM
Ray of revelation is inferior to wispmare because it can't kill leyline; killing leyline and the like is what wispmare is mainly used for anyway. I run 3 wispmares and 1 ray of revelation just on the off chance that i dredge all my wispmares vs a deck with propaganda effects. Has anyone considered testing echoing calm? It seems a plausible and effective way to handle multiple propaganda effects.

Joe_C
04-14-2009, 07:51 AM
Ok, not like its a perfect reason to make the changes, but in playing yesterday I came across the same situation 3 times where another sage/return would have sealed the deal. SO....... What I will be playing until further notice:


4x Careful Study
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Putrid Imp
4x Bridge from Below
4x Narcomoeba
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Tireless Tribe
4x Ichorid
3x Dread Return
3x Golgari Thug
2x Breakthrough
2x Cephalid Sage
1x Flame-Kin Zealot

4x Cephalid Colisseum
4x Gemstone Mine
4x City of Brass
2x Undiscovered Paradise

SB
2x Wispmare
4x Pithing Needle
2x Ingot Chewer
4x Firestorm (better than dakblast? for now I say yes)
2x Chain of Vapor
1x Ancestor's Chosen

This has felt good so far.....

bum_man
04-14-2009, 09:47 AM
Ok, not like its a perfect reason to make the changes, but in playing yesterday I came across the same situation 3 times where another sage/return would have sealed the deal. SO....... What I will be playing until further notice:


4x Careful Study
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Putrid Imp
4x Bridge from Below
4x Narcomoeba
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Tireless Tribe
4x Ichorid
3x Dread Return
3x Golgari Thug
2x Breakthrough
2x Cephalid Sage
1x Flame-Kin Zealot

4x Cephalid Colisseum
4x Gemstone Mine
4x City of Brass
2x Undiscovered Paradise

SB
2x Wispmare
4x Pithing Needle
2x Ingot Chewer
4x Firestorm (better than dakblast? for now I say yes)
2x Chain of Vapor
1x Ancestor's Chosen

This has felt good so far.....

What decks were you up against? And how did you fair?

Joe_C
04-14-2009, 12:06 PM
My games were on MWS just to be noted. I played against red thresh, G1 I mulled to 3 and played a city just to have it wastelanded so I just scooped that up. G2 I dont even board, I go for the throat and get in there on like turn 4 or 5. G3 I bring in some chewers and some needles and 1-2 chain. I slow dredge it into him making a fatal error by not blocking a ichorid and me discarding 3 bridges that were sitting in my hand to get 4 EOT tokens for 3 turns in a row and they drag him down quick. I played against a poor mirror match, this guy was running tolarian winds and couldnt really play the deck well. I steam rolled him G1, G2 he cast winds with 3 cards in hand and proceeds to dredge as though he had four, I call him out on it and then leave because he is being a prick about it. In those two matches, I would have one a turn or so earlier with another return/ sage. Every turn kinda counts so I am justifying the changes back to 3/2 return sage split

alderon666
04-15-2009, 12:40 AM
Ray of revelation is inferior to wispmare because it can't kill leyline; killing leyline and the like is what wispmare is mainly used for anyway. I run 3 wispmares and 1 ray of revelation just on the off chance that i dredge all my wispmares vs a deck with propaganda effects. Has anyone considered testing echoing calm? It seems a plausible and effective way to handle multiple propaganda effects.

Aren't you the people that play more lands because LED is all-in and is a 2-card combo? Now you come and say 2 casting cost is too much? Give me a break, in the situations you described the Ray of Revelation would have been much better.

bum_man
04-15-2009, 01:35 AM
Aren't you the people that play more lands because LED is all-in and is a 2-card combo? Now you come and say 2 casting cost is too much? Give me a break, in the situations you described the Ray of Revelation would have been much better.

That's just one situation, in a majority of other situations where enchantment-hate is needed, ray of revelation would suck. Wispmares are in the sideboard primarily for the enchantment-based hosers like leyline and wheel of sun and moon. For propaganda effects, Chain of vapor is enough because these enchantments only needs to be removed from play. You said ray of revelation is better because it becomes on-line in the graveyard then you talk about its cost when you cast it from the hand. In that case, wispmares would be superior because it would cost less. Im not saying ray of revelation is a bad card, it's actually a good card for dredge. All i'm saying is given we run rays over wispmares, there are gonna be more times that rays are going to be dead cards in contrast to wispmares given their function in the sideboard.

Joe_C
04-17-2009, 12:29 PM
With most decks running a split of relic/crypt, is a more reactive SB better suited than a turn 1 blind pithing needle?

3 Chain of Vapor
4 Firestorm
2 Ingot Chewer
3 Wispmare
1 Ancestor's Chosen
2 Ancient Grudge

Still trying to settle on everything before the tournament Sunday. I hate the few days before a tournament, especially with Ichorid, there are so many options for card quantity

bum_man
04-17-2009, 01:28 PM
With most decks running a split of relic/crypt, is a more reactive SB better suited than a turn 1 blind pithing needle?

3 Chain of Vapor
4 Firestorm
2 Ingot Chewer
3 Wispmare
1 Ancestor's Chosen
2 Ancient Grudge

Still trying to settle on everything before the tournament Sunday. I hate the few days before a tournament, especially with Ichorid, there are so many options for card quantity

As of the moment I'm also having the same problem with my sideboard. Thinking of the sideboard has been a pain for me since I'm relatively new in playing competitively. I've lost a number of my games due to wrong sideboarding, For relic and crypts i have 3 pithing needles, 1 ingot chewer and 1 ancient grudge and two random chalices. I usually don't play needle on the first turn blindly, that will more often than not cost you some losses due to naming the wrong cards. I usually wait for the opponent to play the crypt or relic then i needle it. Or at times i play chalice at zero then needle relic. How do you usually sb against relic/crypt decks? Do you use the chain of vapors often?

Happy Gilmore
04-17-2009, 02:13 PM
I've been a big fan of Greater Gargadon against opponents playing an unknown type of hate. I've played Non led Based ichorid the last couple of weeks and I like it's consistency.

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Undiscovered Paradice

4 Bridge
4 Narcomeaba
4 GGT
4 SI
3 Thug
1 Darkblast
3 Dread Return
1 Flame Kin Zealot
3 Ichorid
1 Akroma AOF
1 Cephalid Sage

3 Unmask
2 Firestorm
4 Putrid Imp
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy


This list has had an extremely good goldfish. I want to fit in a 3rd Firestorm but at times I have had issues with getting the right colors.

Joe_C
04-17-2009, 06:27 PM
As of the moment I'm also having the same problem with my sideboard. Thinking of the sideboard has been a pain for me since I'm relatively new in playing competitively. I've lost a number of my games due to wrong sideboarding, For relic and crypts i have 3 pithing needles, 1 ingot chewer and 1 ancient grudge and two random chalices. I usually don't play needle on the first turn blindly, that will more often than not cost you some losses due to naming the wrong cards. I usually wait for the opponent to play the crypt or relic then i needle it. Or at times i play chalice at zero then needle relic. How do you usually sb against relic/crypt decks? Do you use the chain of vapors often?

Chains come in against anything that I would be unsure of the hate they have. If I expect crypt/relic I will bring in the chewers and grudges, maybe a chain or two. Im not sure what my board is going to look like shortly, I may be going back to running unmask in the maindeck since it is a offensive and defensive card that has tons of uses......

bum_man
04-17-2009, 09:20 PM
Chains come in against anything that I would be unsure of the hate they have. If I expect crypt/relic I will bring in the chewers and grudges, maybe a chain or two. Im not sure what my board is going to look like shortly, I may be going back to running unmask in the maindeck since it is a offensive and defensive card that has tons of uses......

Oh i see.. I'm not really sold on using chewers and grudges without needles. I've lost a number of games in the past where my grudges/chewers just forced my opponent to activate the crypts/relics now, they usually have another one at hand, more importantly they are still able to wreck my graveyard. So what i do is i play needles along with the grudges.

I've also been wanting try out maindeck unmasks too because of the number of blue and combo where i play the problem is i don't think i have the slots to do so. They would either further thin out my combo which is something i don't want to do. Do you already have slots in mind for the unmasks?

Raptor
04-18-2009, 05:53 PM
Hello,
As of now, I've not read the full thread, but I've a question for you guys. (sorry if it has been asked)

How do you think Reveillark would do in MD ?
Being able to return 2 of : FKZ / Cephalid Sage/ GGT / Stinkweed Imp seems REALLY enormous and game breaker.

Surging Chaos
04-19-2009, 12:04 AM
Hello,
As of now, I've not read the full thread, but I've a question for you guys. (sorry if it has been asked)

How do you think Reveillark would do in MD ?
Being able to return 2 of : FKZ / Cephalid Sage/ GGT / Stinkweed Imp seems REALLY enormous and game breaker.

I've found Reveillark to be a win-more card. If you were able to reanimate a Cephalid Sage from Rev for example, you could have just as easily DRed Sage back into play to clean out a huge chunk of your library. Likewise, you can also do something like DR FKZ directly for the instant win instead of reanimating Rev, saccing it to a Therapy and then reanimating FKZ.

bum_man
04-19-2009, 07:33 AM
Hello,
As of now, I've not read the full thread, but I've a question for you guys. (sorry if it has been asked)

How do you think Reveillark would do in MD ?
Being able to return 2 of : FKZ / Cephalid Sage/ GGT / Stinkweed Imp seems REALLY enormous and game breaker.

Reveillark for me is not really a win-more card. It actually works well in certain metagames. Reveillark has the potential to be great in metagames where board sweepers are very prevalent. Since winning with zombies is very difficult you can go through larking two grave-trolls and returning an FKZ. I still haven't tested it yet so I'm not really sure on how it goes. It's works fairly well in LED dredge i hear.

Joe_C
04-19-2009, 08:17 AM
I know it sees play in vintage lists, but what about Sadistic Hypnotist? Truly can lock your oppenent out of the game if returned early on....

Also, crazy idea(may not even be worth it, but food for thought) : Circular Logic. Counterspells for Ichorid

Raptor
04-19-2009, 04:53 PM
I know it sees play in vintage lists, but what about Sadistic Hypnotist? Truly can lock your oppenent out of the game if returned early on....

Also, crazy idea(may not even be worth it, but food for thought) : Circular Logic. Counterspells for Ichorid

For sadistic Hypnotist, I've hard time finding a situation where I would want him more then the Sage.. :o I think you're just making the game longer :p

For circular logic, the problem is having one mana open for it, when you could play a Putrid imp / Careful study / Tireless / breaktrough.
And you wreck your hand with breaktrough, so it would most likely go in the graveyard.. And if you don't have it in the opening hand, it's a dead card..

bum_man
04-19-2009, 10:32 PM
Hypnotist looks interesting but it doesn't help making the combo better. Dredge is a combo deck, it's cards either help make the combo happen or protect the combo. Hypnotist isn't the most effective slot in the deck because it doesn't help you win now.

As for Circular Logic, it looks really cute having it in, the problem is it doesn't have enough synergy with the deck compared to therapy or unmask. The deck doesn't really need permission that much too.

Raptor
04-19-2009, 10:38 PM
Sorry for double post, but I'm posting the build that I'm using right now, which seems to work quite well. I've only tested without side as of now.

I've had some problems like 1-2 games with mulligans, and it seems to "combo" out quite well.

// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
2 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
4 [AN] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
2 [TO] Cephalid Sage
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
3 [TO] Ichorid
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
3 [OD] Tireless Tribe
4 [TO] Putrid Imp

// Spells
3 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [OD] Careful Study
3 [TO] Breakthrough

Similar to the list that someone posted early on, but changed some little things. I'm planning on playing a bit with the list.

I'll explain my choice later on, but I plan using this deck in a metagame full of threshold, and with some merfolk and some Next level blue and maybe 1-2 eva green and 1-2 dragon stompy and some other random Deck

Joe_C
04-21-2009, 07:07 AM
2 Ichorid Lists made top 8 in the same event this past weekend. The lists should be posted this week I would think. If I see them come up I will transfer them over to here for discussion. They seemed to be playing fairly standard lists aside from runnin Null Rod in their boards

Joe_C
04-22-2009, 06:35 AM
http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=338156&postcount=33

here is a link to the lists from this past weekend... Fairly standard, I like Sundering Titan as a return outlet, but I dont think it's needed. Being more resilient games 2 and 3. Thats whats needed

Pulp_Fiction
04-23-2009, 02:49 AM
I like the list, I have been leaning a lot more towards 14 lands lately, seems to be just as consistent but I have abandoned all hope in Undiscovered Paradise. There have been numerous times when I would have won next turn with Coliseum but the fucking thing returned to my hand so I just decided lightning bolt land is the way to go.

I still feel that same about additional DR targets, but Woodfall Primus is the best bet to making things work. I have considered him in the board for the Stax matchup but that matchup is so abysmal anyway I have basically abandoned it. Grudge/Ray are most likely just superior.

As far as Unmask goes .... still dont like it. I would run Firestorm before I run Unmask, I realize these fill different slots but I just don't like either. Firestorm could be run for the Belcher matchup or any storm deck that relies on Warrens but aside from that ...

This idea is WAAAAY out there but its something I have been thinking about. Could this deck ever be good with Serum Powder in it? I love vintage Dredge but I think playing 4x DR and all the other shit that comes with Powder is probably unnecessary. Has anyone ever played a Serum Powder Dredge list? Would it be awful beyond words without Bazaar?

Joe_C
04-23-2009, 06:15 AM
This idea is WAAAAY out there but its something I have been thinking about. Could this deck ever be good with Serum Powder in it? I love vintage Dredge but I think playing 4x DR and all the other shit that comes with Powder is probably unnecessary. Has anyone ever played a Serum Powder Dredge list? Would it be awful beyond words without Bazaar?

I would have to think that without bazaar, serum powder just isnt worth it. The thing with vintage dredge is that it can powder away hands until it has a bazaar in hand. Thats enough to get the ball rolling. In legacy unfortunately we need to have an land thats on color for our hand/ a discard outlet/dredger, and preferably another draw spell ie. study or breakthrough to hopefully pump out a turn 2 win. We risk losing too many of those pieces when we throw away hands to powder, and without going over 60 cards, I would not even know where to start taking out stuff unless you added powder to an LED list.

bum_man
04-24-2009, 03:04 PM
Vintage Ichorid can run on one card and one card alone. Serum Powder helps in looking for a hand with this card in it at the very least. In Legacy Ichorid, we use more types of cards to be able to replicate the Bazaar effect in our deck. We wouldn't be able to achieve the same effect that Serum Powder has in the vintage deck mainly because of big disparity in deck design and strategy. Removing cards through Serum Powder would be murder because it would make the combo more inconsistent than it already is, furthermore, there is no certain card that the deck would want to mulligan into, it needs a combination of cards to function, making mulliganing through powder not as effective a plan as it theoretically is.

Raptor
04-25-2009, 02:27 PM
Hello, I used the decklist that I've posted above (in the exception of 2-3 cards) in a 3 rounds tournament.
I've played agaisnt a random deck in first round. 2-0

Second round I've played agaisnt a deck that is similar to landstill, but with no mans land and no standstill (lol). The deck was good though, and played by a good and a nice player (Hi Ugo). I've lost first match due to a relic turn 2 I think (he had 2x relics maindecked), and I used breakthrough Turn 1.
I didn't see any Therapy, and got PImp counter spell'd. He proceeded to play Elspeth and had a FoW in hand.
I've lost game 2 agaisnt him. I had lots of bad dredge and slowed me down early game, he managed to Cwish for Extirpate and removed my bridge he was at about 5 life then with my ichroid. Put EE at 0 and killed the zombies that I had. He crypted my Graveyard. I managed to attack him with my last ichorid but he sworded it. He put Elspeth and I managed to get him down to 2 with 1 narco, and he wasted my only land. He academy ruined EE and killed my narco. He killed me with elspeth, and didn't get any lands in like 5 turns...
0-2


Third round, I played agaisnt a BUG ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, he had Deed maindecked, but I killed him T3.
Second game, he puts Top turn 1, and I put Needle on Relic. Turn 2 he puts Counter balance and cript. After he used his crypt when I dredged and put a tarmo, I hardcasted Stinkweed Imp 3x in the game, and beat him down with it. I had 2 bridges in my yard, and he had another tarmo, and he Deed everything... So I had 8 Tokens and won.
2-0


Overall, I've done 2-1. And I've tournament every thursday.. and I can post a report if you want to.

Some things that I would change to my deck ;
I'll add another Therapy Maindeck. A lot of times I wish that I had it.
I'll probally had a ichorid SB, I found ichorid really nice game two vs hate such as extirpate on Bridges.
I just got my playset of Unmask, so I plan on playtesting it, I'll give my impression.
I plan on trying Firestorm 2-3x main deck. It can steal some games pre-SB and is so useful in a meta with lots of aggro, dragon stompy, thresh and landstill. (and my meta have about 1 combo deck on 30 people)

P.s. I didn't have to do THAT many mulligans, and I got problems with needle, like putting it in T1 on Relics and then at his turn he puts Crypt. Happened to me 2 times.

bum_man
04-26-2009, 01:32 PM
@Guitar: Congratulations in doing very well with the deck. With a little more experience in playing the deck I'm sure you'd do a hella lot better in tournaments. Concerning the needle, What I name usually depends on the situation. I usually wait for my opponent to play something like crypt or relic, then I needle it once it hits the board. Blindly naming on needle often leads to errors that can very well decide games, that is why as much as possible I advice against it. You can also try siding in Chalices for crypts so the needles can solely be used for relics or vials or manlands or whatever.


OT: I've recently been testing 2/2 Split on Golgari Thug and Darkblast dredging suite. Ive noticed at times that I often pass winning on the following turns because i lack a creature for returning sage or FKZ so i decided to test out 2 thugs in place of the 15th land and 3rd darkblast in the list from the opening post.

There are a lot of burn and blue in my meta so thugs worked wonders in recurring narcs. More importantly, it gave me more creatures that i can hardcast for dread return. The deck seem to be doing fairly well except for the fact that it seemed to have increased my mulligans. I'm doing further testing with this. Is there anyone else that have tried this configuration? Your thoughts and criticisms on this are greatly appreciated.

Pulp_Fiction
04-26-2009, 02:48 PM
@Guitar: Most of the time you can basically tell what kind of hate your opponent is playing just by knowing the format and the possible SB cards, so familiarize yourself with that and it will greatly help. Also, this is what I with Pithing Needle, don't play it on turn 1 if you have a discard outlet that is not Breakthrough. Just play Careful Study/Tribe/Imp and discard GGT (always GGT since he is the best dredger and will prompt your opponent to use the hate cards). And your opponent will almost always drop their hate spell so next turn you know what to Needle. I love baiting the spell cause sometimes they don't even have their hate but something like Engineered Explosives which really sucks and after they drop that, Needle it! This is another strategy to use, very simple but more effective than not, if they play Tarmogoyf name Crypt, if they don't run Goyf name Relic.

whienot
04-26-2009, 03:06 PM
Or run Null Rod to answer all the artifact hate. mwa ha ha ha. :confused:

Joe_C
04-26-2009, 03:42 PM
Or run Null Rod to answer all the artifact hate. mwa ha ha ha. :confused:

Im looking to put a blend of needle/rod in my board. At the moment my board is:

4 Firestorm
3 Wispmare
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Null rod
2 Pithing needle
1 Ancestor's Chosen

Been testing fairly well... Alot of people on MWS quit once you win on turn 2 or 3 :wink:

Also, my list has changed a bit:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Tarnished Citadel

4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Tireless Tribe
4 Putrid Imp

3 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Breakthrough
3 Careful Study

Id love to run the 3rd tribe, but I often get hands where I cant cast him, I know that sounds weird since the deck runs 9 rainbow lands and 4 only blue producers, but I get hands with 2 coliseums in it way more often than I feel I should, maybe its just my shit luck, but I would rather have another careful study in there instead of the tribe since study can get things moving fast. The 4th thug has been treating me really well.... Its another snack for ichorid and having that extra dredger is really something.

Raptor
04-26-2009, 03:51 PM
@Guitar: Most of the time you can basically tell what kind of hate your opponent is playing just by knowing the format and the possible SB cards, so familiarize yourself with that and it will greatly help. Also, this is what I with Pithing Needle, don't play it on turn 1 if you have a discard outlet that is not Breakthrough. Just play Careful Study/Tribe/Imp and discard GGT (always GGT since he is the best dredger and will prompt your opponent to use the hate cards). And your opponent will almost always drop their hate spell so next turn you know what to Needle. I love baiting the spell cause sometimes they don't even have their hate but something like Engineered Explosives which really sucks and after they drop that, Needle it! This is another strategy to use, very simple but more effective than not, if they play Tarmogoyf name Crypt, if they don't run Goyf name Relic.

I usually know what kind of hate people side, but one game, with the guy running Relic MD, I assumed that he sided in more relics, or at least, there were more chance of having relic then Crypt. So I needled the Relic.
And one of the problem I have seen, is that when I had needle Game 2 or 3, my only draw was a breaktrough, so I think I kind of "had" to play Needle on Turn one.

I've had Chalice in my side, but I never feel the need to side it. Except the fact that it costs 0 to Crypt, I've always found Needle to be time better because it is more versatile in lots of cases.

By the way, have anyone considered playing like 3 firestorm instead of Tireless Tribe, especially in a meta with Landstill variant, Dragon Stompy and threshold ?

Another question, is it better for an opponent to FOW a Turn 1 Pimp or wait to FOW a Breakthrough / Careful study.

Also, I've seen some list running Lotus Petal (on www.deckcheck.net), has anyone tested it ?

This is probally the list that I will test this week.

Lands (14)
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
2 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
4 [AN] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine

// Creatures (28)
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
1 [TO] Cephalid Sage
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
3 [TO] Ichorid
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Firestorm
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
1 Woodfall Primus

// Spells (18)
3 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [OD] Careful Study
3 [TO] Breakthrough

Sideboard
4 x Pithing Needle
3 x Chain of Vapor
4 x Wishpmare
1 x Ichorid
3 x Unmask

Joe_C
04-26-2009, 03:59 PM
Guitar: On your question about your opponents force targets: Them forcing your Imp serves them better than waiting for a breakthrough. Imp/tribe are pretty much early "must counters" for your opponents. If they let it resolve, you will get a dredger into the grave and may win the next turn if the dregde gods are kind to you(as in you dont dredge 19 or so cards and not hit a moeba, yeah its happened to me). Them letting a discard outlet like imp/tribe hit is very devastating for them.

On firestorm against stompy: I wouldnt take tribe out in favor of them to start, but games 2 and 3 I would drop the tribes and maybe an imp for firestorms since it cant be needled, and if they land a magus of the moon, they just gave you a pain free red mana to use to wipe the board. Against landstill, I would maybe take out a return and a sage for 2 firestorms and keep the tribe/imp count the same. If they run hate, you will want the continuing effect of imp/tribe more than anything else.

rbpong721
04-27-2009, 09:24 PM
@ Pulp - I've been using the list you posted a few pages back and it's been working out very well, very consistent.

For reference:



4x Careful Study
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Putrid Imp
4x Bridge from Below
4x Narcomoeba
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Tireless Tribe
3x Ichorid
3x Dread Return
3x Darkblast
3x Breakthrough
2x Cephalid Sage
1x Flame-Kin Zealot

4x Cephalid Colisseum
4x Gemstone Mine
4x City of Brass
2x Tarnished Citadel

SB
4x Wispmare
4x Pithing Needle
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Chain of Vapor

I'm having problems deciding what to side board out, what do you side board out when you need to bring in Needle or CoV or Whispmare or CotV?

Also, have you ever had to bring more side board cards then 4x Needles or Wispmare or CotV to deal with threats, a mix of side board cards?

Pulp_Fiction
04-28-2009, 01:49 AM
Glad you like the updated list :) How I board is all posted in the opening post. Most of the time it is -1 Sage, -1 Dread Return, -1 Breakthrough, -1 Careful Study. Against blue I have started removing 3x Breakthroughs and 1x Sage to bring in 4 cards. There is rarely a matchup where I side in more than 4 cards. Against storm combo I started removing 2x Ichorids (and it works quite well since this matchup is all about speed and disruption) and Ichorid is usually to slow to impact the game.

The other week when I played UG Constant Mist Moment's Peace.dec I sided in 8x cards but that because I just wanted to rely on dork beatdown and use the slow dredge so as not to deck myself while still applying Ichorid beats (it worked first time and failed due to recurring Relics + Cryptic Command the second time).

If you could give me an example of what you will be playing against I could talk a little more about SB.

Joe_C
04-28-2009, 06:33 AM
Pulp, not to critique too much since obviously your deck is performing for you, but how do you feel about all of the 3 of's in your list?

rbpong721
04-28-2009, 08:07 AM
@ Pulp: I'll be playing against Scepter/Chant, Goblins, MetaTog (some strange version of Psychatog), Boros Deck Wins, MB Zombies, Painter, and two rogue aggro; one is RG Aggro, other BG Aggro. Both RG and BG aggro contains a whole lot of "Shrouded" creatures or "creatures that cannot be the target of spells or abilites". The BG aggro and Zombies will contain a lot of discard.

My sideboard is pretty much the same as your deck list.


Have you tried Street Wraith out in place of 3x Dark Blast?
What is the ideal amount of cards you want to mull to if you have to?

Joe_C
04-28-2009, 06:02 PM
@ Pulp: I'll be playing against Scepter/Chant, Goblins, MetaTog (some strange version of Psychatog), Boros Deck Wins, MB Zombies, Painter, and two rogue aggro; one is RG Aggro, other BG Aggro. Both RG and BG aggro contains a whole lot of "Shrouded" creatures or "creatures that cannot be the target of spells or abilites". The BG aggro and Zombies will contain a lot of discard.

My sideboard is pretty much the same as your deck list.


Have you tried Street Wraith out in place of 3x Dark Blast?
What is the ideal amount of cards you want to mull to if you have to?

if he removed the blasts he would only be running 8 dredgers, which would be really too low. Ive been running 4 thugs (total of 12 dredgers) and I have loved them. They bring back moebas/imps/tribes when cast then sacced to therapy or chumpblocking. I find it important to have a steady amount of ichorid food, many games have been woon due to me taking 2 ichorids into play on turn 2 and dread returning sage to get into the win...

bum_man
04-29-2009, 02:30 AM
Whether to run darkblasts or thugs is a meta-game call, imo. Back when I ran 11 Dredgers, I usually interchange 3 for 3 thugs depending on what decks i see playing before the tournament. Darkblasts are better in metagames with a lot of red or black. These metagames has alot of fanatics, jailers and a number of other problematic creatures that can hamper the decks game plan. These stop or slow down the deck in match-ups where the combo and generally, speed is going to be a factor. Recurring Ichorids isn't that strong here because most of the time Ichorid will just become the last creature needed to D'return into the combo.

Thugs on the other hand, imo, are much better in metagames full of blue. Darkblasts aren't as strong in these metagames because there aren't a lot of creatures it can kill. More importantly, the combo plan isn't as strong against blue and permission because it is unlikely that they'll let you combo out. In this metagame where the slow and aggro beats plan is more or else your gameplan, Thugs are the superior dredgers.

Try testing out what build is better where you play. Joe and Pulp's list are doing great because they play configurations that work best where they play. I'm still testing out what list is best for my metagame since it is diverse with a lot of red, black and blue. @_@ Given the decks you mentioned above i believe darkblasts would be better since almost all of those are decks you have to race. That's how i'd play it at least. Do try to see what works better. ^^

rbpong721
04-29-2009, 09:55 AM
if he removed the blasts he would only be running 8 dredgers, which would be really too low. Ive been running 4 thugs (total of 12 dredgers) and I have loved them. They bring back moebas/imps/tribes when cast then sacced to therapy or chumpblocking. I find it important to have a steady amount of ichorid food, many games have been woon due to me taking 2 ichorids into play on turn 2 and dread returning sage to get into the win...

This is very true. I replaced Pulp's 3x DB, with 3x Wraith and was wondering why I did not have enough dredgers. You sure solved that problem. So far I have 11 dredgers, 4x GTG, 4x Imp, and 3x Thug which seems to be working out fine so far.


Whether to run darkblasts or thugs is a meta-game call, imo. Back when I ran 11 Dredgers, I usually interchange 3 for 3 thugs depending on what decks i see playing before the tournament. Darkblasts are better in metagames with a lot of red or black. These metagames has alot of fanatics, jailers and a number of other problematic creatures that can hamper the decks game plan. These stop or slow down the deck in match-ups where the combo and generally, speed is going to be a factor. Recurring Ichorids isn't that strong here because most of the time Ichorid will just become the last creature needed to D'return into the combo.

Thugs on the other hand, imo, are much better in metagames full of blue. Darkblasts aren't as strong in these metagames because there aren't a lot of creatures it can kill. More importantly, the combo plan isn't as strong against blue and permission because it is unlikely that they'll let you combo out. In this metagame where the slow and aggro beats plan is more or else your gameplan, Thugs are the superior dredgers.

Try testing out what build is better where you play. Joe and Pulp's list are doing great because they play configurations that work best where they play. I'm still testing out what list is best for my metagame since it is diverse with a lot of red, black and blue. @_@ Given the decks you mentioned above i believe darkblasts would be better since almost all of those are decks you have to race. That's how i'd play it at least. Do try to see what works better. ^^

This helped a lot as well, thanks. Considering my meta I'll certainly run DB over thugs. I'm still confident I can get past Scepter/Chant with Needles. But I have a feeling needles may not be enough and I'll either resort to Null Rod or CotV at 0 and Needle on Scepter. Needle targets will depend on what I see from the first couple of turns and the hate of their choice.

Are their any other colored mana land producers besides the ones we're using? Sometimes it seems I never draw City of Brass and all the counters on Gemstone Mine get used up leaving me with no land.

Another problem I face is when to dredge? For example I have three Dredgers in gy, with Breakthrough in hand. Should I play Breakthrough and dredge the three or should I wait for that fourth dredger to land in gy then dredge? Also, for the first three or so turns, do you guys normally use your draw step to dredge or draw? Or would it depend on your hand and the situation of the game?

Joe_C
04-29-2009, 10:23 AM
Another problem I face is when to dredge? For example I have three Dredgers in gy, with Breakthrough in hand. Should I play Breakthrough and dredge the three or should I wait for that fourth dredger to land in gy then dredge? Also, for the first three or so turns, do you guys normally use your draw step to dredge or draw? Or would it depend on your hand and the situation of the game?

If you have 1 dredger in your grave, you should breakthrough. Any dredge cards you put into the grave from your first dredge can be used to fulfill breathrough's draw 4 cards. ie. I cast breakthrough with a 1 troll in the grave, (use 1 replacement from breathrough), and my six cards are land, land, stinkweed, moeba,thug, study, I can replace the next draw with one of the dredgers I just placed from dredging troll.... that is why this deck is so busted

bum_man
04-29-2009, 10:52 AM
This helped a lot as well, thanks. Considering my meta I'll certainly run DB over thugs. I'm still confident I can get past Scepter/Chant with Needles. But I have a feeling needles may not be enough and I'll either resort to Null Rod or CotV at 0 and Needle on Scepter. Needle targets will depend on what I see from the first couple of turns and the hate of their choice.

I haven't tested this match-up yet but it seems interesting though. You generally have more or less 3 turns to race them. Before they get their iso-chants online. This is pre-board at least.


Are their any other colored mana land producers besides the ones we're using? Sometimes it seems I never draw City of Brass and all the counters on Gemstone Mine get used up leaving me with no land.

I run 1 tarnished citadel and 1 undiscovered paradise as my 13th and 14th lands. These are the two other rainbow lands that was discussed before that could see play as additional lands for the deck. Their drawbacks suck though, Pulp i think ran 2 citadels in those slots. Im still planning to test that out because the as much as i hate timewalking myself through paradise, citadel's lifeloss can be relevant where i play. Orchard is also an option though but do you really want to give them one more way to remove your bridges? Do try to mull into workable hands with at least one land, outlet, dredger at the very least. if you need more lands to work with you can always not dredge on your draw phase to try to get some lands.


Another problem I face is when to dredge? For example I have three Dredgers in gy, with Breakthrough in hand. Should I play Breakthrough and dredge the three or should I wait for that fourth dredger to land in gy then dredge?

This deck can run on at least 1 dredger in the yard, of course you do have to hope to dredge into more dredgers though. Given one dredger in the yard, in your second turn, you have more or less at 19% chance that your top deck is a dredger and for every card you mill that is not a dredger your chances of hitting a dredger on the next card increases by .5%. But since this deck relies on random dredges it often sucks-out and runs out of gas. 3 Dredgers in the yard while playing breakthrough more or less make sure you hit a 4th one, then you win. 2 Dredgers are more or less the safe count in going-off especially if one them is a grave-troll.


Also, for the first three or so turns, do you guys normally use your draw step to dredge or draw? Or would it depend on your hand and the situation of the game?

Yup I think this depends on who you are playing against and what hand you have. Aside from the outlet, land and dredger which is the minumum requirement for keeping a hand, you also need a draw spell as an engine in dredging. Against decks i have to race i usually draw for my first 2 turns if I don't hit a draw spell, this is when i start dredging. I'm not really sure if this is the right thing to do though. Against blue, you generally draw asap. You really want to dredge as soon as possible hoping to hit ichorids because they are the MVP of these match-ups. Whether to dredge or to draw is one of the more difficult parts in playing dredge imo, but basically just look at your hand and ask yourself if you're lacking something, a land or draw spell usually, at times another dredger or outlet. Let's just wait for Joe_C's or Pulp_Fiction's replies, they have better inputs about this since they have more experience with the deck ^^

Pulp_Fiction
04-29-2009, 11:59 AM
Pulp, not to critique too much since obviously your deck is performing for you, but how do you feel about all of the 3 of's in your list?

I am very satisfied with all the 3-ofs. I never liked 4 Ichorid and the rest of everything else just works great! 3x Breakthrough just feels right since you can aggressively mull into it and you won't have to many dead draws (if it comes to that) against counters.

@rbpong721: Against all those decks it looks like Pithing Needle would help the most. If everyone in your meta is running 2/2 Crypt/Relic then just play Ingot Chewer in the board over Chain of Vapor. I would not advise this unless Darkblast is in the main though to deal with Jailer and other annoying creatures. I could potentially see 4x Wispmare against the black aggro for Leyline but thats about it. Particularly against scepter chant, I would just board in the 4 Needle but you could also put in 2x CoV if they are bringing in multiple hate cards.

Regarding mulligans, it depends on what you are up against. I mull aggressive as hell against everything but I am always looking for specific cards. Against combo game 1 I am looking for expolsive starts and Cabal Therapy, Goblins I'm looking for Darkblast, etc. But to answer the question, keep whatever kind of hand you think has potential. I mulligan a lot more than most people do because I am never going to rely on the deck to draw whats necessary its all about getting a decent opening hand. I have no reservations about going down to 4 cards trying to get a decent hand. I would not mulligan down to much lower than 5 cards against blue control though since they usually give you ample setup time and you can just draw, dredge, discard and repeat (I have won a few games against mono-u without ever casting a spell). So mulligan very aggressively and as common sense as this sounds it is vital, know the kind of hand you want against your opponent and get it, or keep the closest thing. Just always ask yourself "is this hand better than a random hand with 1 less card in it?"

Joe_C
04-29-2009, 05:57 PM
List for discussion:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Tarnished Citadel

4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Putrid Imp

2 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
3 Breakthrough
3 Unmask
2 Darkblast
3 Careful Study

Things I like about this:

1. Unmask is just a really good card. With the addition of a few more black cards instead of running tribe. I increase my chances of using it effectively turn 1. Decks are running maindecked relic more than ever, yanking it from their hand turn 1 makes me smile. Also lets not forget you can unmask yourself if you know you are not playing against control to get a dredger into your grave and breakthrough that turn.:smile:

2. 14 Dredgers. Often I get hands that are amazing but lack a dredger, this should remedy this problem.

3. 13 lands. May not be enough, but I like the feel so far. I could always run the 14th in the board

Things Im undecided whether I like or not:

1. lack of tireless tribe. Sure, its a 2 of in my list normally, giving it up for 2 darkblasts seems reasonable enough. We will see how much I miss that discard outlet after some serious testing

2. 2 dread return/ 1 sage. Back to this one again. I know the 3/2 split works great at times, i think i would rather have my opening grip look better to me by having unmask/blast than to hope to dredge into this. Thats the thing with this deck, we want things in our hand, and in our grave(have cake and eat it too?:wink: )

thats what Ive got for now. If others want to help me run some games with this configuration, any additional feedback you guys can provide is appreciated

Raptor
04-29-2009, 06:24 PM
List for discussion:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Tarnished Citadel

4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Putrid Imp

2 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
3 Breakthrough
3 Unmask
2 Darkblast
3 Careful Study

Things I like about this:

1. Unmask is just a really good card. With the addition of a few more black cards instead of running tribe. I increase my chances of using it effectively turn 1. Decks are running maindecked relic more than ever, yanking it from their hand turn 1 makes me smile. Also lets not forget you can unmask yourself if you know you are not playing against control to get a dredger into your grave and breakthrough that turn.:smile:

2. 14 Dredgers. Often I get hands that are amazing but lack a dredger, this should remedy this problem.

3. 13 lands. May not be enough, but I like the feel so far. I could always run the 14th in the board

Things Im undecided whether I like or not:

1. lack of tireless tribe. Sure, its a 2 of in my list normally, giving it up for 2 darkblasts seems reasonable enough. We will see how much I miss that discard outlet after some serious testing

2. 2 dread return/ 1 sage. Back to this one again. I know the 3/2 split works great at times, i think i would rather have my opening grip look better to me by having unmask/blast than to hope to dredge into this. Thats the thing with this deck, we want things in our hand, and in our grave(have cake and eat it too?:wink: )

thats what Ive got for now. If others want to help me run some games with this configuration, any additional feedback you guys can provide is appreciated

Just wondering, in what kind of meta are you playing in ?
Personally, I don't think I should run this list for the simple fact of the ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh and control dominant meta that I am in. Having a PImp Force'd seems kind of desatrous for this deck (assuming you don't start so you can't unmask him).

Personally, I think you might have some problem with running a "slower" Ichorid then it is with the previous list because we lack the explosiveness of the LED.

But eh, that's only my opinion, and I'm not a pro with dredges ;)
I'll most likely post the list that I'll be running tomorrow at a 30ish men tournament. Let me know if you want me to do a report !

rbpong721
04-29-2009, 09:01 PM
If you have 1 dredger in your grave, you should breakthrough. Any dredge cards you put into the grave from your first dredge can be used to fulfill breathrough's draw 4 cards. ie. I cast breakthrough with a 1 troll in the grave, (use 1 replacement from breathrough), and my six cards are land, land, stinkweed, moeba,thug, study, I can replace the next draw with one of the dredgers I just placed from dredging troll.... that is why this deck is so busted

Ah so that's the key. I was wondering if I was able to dredge cards that I get off another dredge if I still have the chance to draw. That answers that question.


I haven't tested this match-up yet but it seems interesting though. You generally have more or less 3 turns to race them. Before they get their iso-chants online. This is pre-board at least.

I run 1 tarnished citadel and 1 undiscovered paradise as my 13th and 14th lands. These are the two other rainbow lands that was discussed before that could see play as additional lands for the deck. Their drawbacks suck though, Pulp i think ran 2 citadels in those slots. Im still planning to test that out because the as much as i hate timewalking myself through paradise, citadel's lifeloss can be relevant where i play. Orchard is also an option though but do you really want to give them one more way to remove your bridges? Do try to mull into workable hands with at least one land, outlet, dredger at the very least. if you need more lands to work with you can always not dredge on your draw phase to try to get some lands.

This deck can run on at least 1 dredger in the yard, of course you do have to hope to dredge into more dredgers though. Given one dredger in the yard, in your second turn, you have more or less at 19% chance that your top deck is a dredger and for every card you mill that is not a dredger your chances of hitting a dredger on the next card increases by .5%. But since this deck relies on random dredges it often sucks-out and runs out of gas. 3 Dredgers in the yard while playing breakthrough more or less make sure you hit a 4th one, then you win. 2 Dredgers are more or less the safe count in going-off especially if one them is a grave-troll.




Yup I think this depends on who you are playing against and what hand you have. Aside from the outlet, land and dredger which is the minumum requirement for keeping a hand, you also need a draw spell as an engine in dredging. Against decks i have to race i usually draw for my first 2 turns if I don't hit a draw spell, this is when i start dredging. I'm not really sure if this is the right thing to do though. Against blue, you generally draw asap. You really want to dredge as soon as possible hoping to hit ichorids because they are the MVP of these match-ups. Whether to dredge or to draw is one of the more difficult parts in playing dredge imo, but basically just look at your hand and ask yourself if you're lacking something, a land or draw spell usually, at times another dredger or outlet. Let's just wait for Joe_C's or Pulp_Fiction's replies, they have better inputs about this since they have more experience with the deck ^^

Yea pre-board it's a big race, that's why I liked Pulp's list because it was very consistent. I'm still not a 100% on pre-board and was considering Unmask, but honestly I have no idea what I'd take out. I thought about Orchard, but giving my opponent a chance to win game 1 is not something I'd be into. Ok, so that's what I'm mostly looking for in a hand, thank you. Yea I've noticed I run out of a steam sometimes and trying to get that steam rolling again is a bit tough, but fighting through Relics and Crypts must be even more challenging. So Ichroid is the one I'm looking to get on the board in control match ups, I could see how he would present a lot of problems and put pressure on control to react or die.


I am very satisfied with all the 3-ofs. I never liked 4 Ichorid and the rest of everything else just works great! 3x Breakthrough just feels right since you can aggressively mull into it and you won't have to many dead draws (if it comes to that) against counters.

@rbpong721: Against all those decks it looks like Pithing Needle would help the most. If everyone in your meta is running 2/2 Crypt/Relic then just play Ingot Chewer in the board over Chain of Vapor. I would not advise this unless Darkblast is in the main though to deal with Jailer and other annoying creatures. I could potentially see 4x Wispmare against the black aggro for Leyline but thats about it. Particularly against scepter chant, I would just board in the 4 Needle but you could also put in 2x CoV if they are bringing in multiple hate cards.

Regarding mulligans, it depends on what you are up against. I mull aggressive as hell against everything but I am always looking for specific cards. Against combo game 1 I am looking for expolsive starts and Cabal Therapy, Goblins I'm looking for Darkblast, etc. But to answer the question, keep whatever kind of hand you think has potential. I mulligan a lot more than most people do because I am never going to rely on the deck to draw whats necessary its all about getting a decent opening hand. I have no reservations about going down to 4 cards trying to get a decent hand. I would not mulligan down to much lower than 5 cards against blue control though since they usually give you ample setup time and you can just draw, dredge, discard and repeat (I have won a few games against mono-u without ever casting a spell). So mulligan very aggressively and as common sense as this sounds it is vital, know the kind of hand you want against your opponent and get it, or keep the closest thing. Just always ask yourself "is this hand better than a random hand with 1 less card in it?"

I never thought of Ingot Chewer, that would certainly helps if things really get out of hand. As for the mulligan, that helps a lot. I was always wondering if I should be mulligan that much. I've never played combo decks before and I find I mulligan a lot more then normal. As for the hands, your right in trying to find a hand that's good against a particular deck. Against control I would assume that keeping a hand with about two out lets, dredge, draw, land land, would be best? Forcing them to FoW or counter that out let puts pressure on them, because if not, then like I said before, they will be in a heap of trouble.

Now if I play Needle naming scepter/crypt/relic and he destroys Needle, then drops Meddling Mage naming Needle, I would have to hope to draw into Dark Blast right? Because their is no other way to stop the hate.

@ Guitar: Tournament reports are always helpful. Their a good read and provides other more experienced players insight to your play style and they could suggest tips and pointers that would help improve your game.

Raptor
04-29-2009, 10:56 PM
// Lands (14)
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Undiscovered Paradise
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

// Creatures (27)
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
2 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Tireless Tribe
4 Putrid Imp

// Spells (20)
3 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Careful Study
3 Breakthrough
2 Firestorm

// Sideboard
4 Wishpmare
4 Pithing Needle
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Ichorid
2 Firestorm

I might drop the woodfall primus or a dread return in favor of an additionnal golgari thug.. I'll see tomorrow.

Joe_C
04-30-2009, 06:33 AM
Guitar: I would run the 11th dredger. you will notice the loss of it, trust me...

Also, on the list I put up yesterday, scratch that..... Tribe is just so amazing in this deck I cant see playing without it....

rbpong721
04-30-2009, 08:45 AM
Guitar: I would run the 11th dredger. you will notice the loss of it, trust me...

Also, on the list I put up yesterday, scratch that..... Tribe is just so amazing in this deck I cant see playing without it....

We really need that discard outlet for the deck to function. What I like most about Tribe and Pimp are their must counters for control decks, forcing them out of their comfort zone.

How did the Unmask work out? I was thinking of running them.. but removing a black card is pretty iffy.

bum_man
04-30-2009, 09:02 AM
@Joe_C: How has the 13 lands been for you? How many lands do you usually need to make the deck run? Im at 14 lands right now and often times i get great turn 2-3 kill hands that i eventually had to mulligan because they had 0-1 lands. With wasteland being rampant where i play one land is definitely not enough in the opening 7.

Joe_C
04-30-2009, 12:30 PM
@Joe_C: How has the 13 lands been for you? How many lands do you usually need to make the deck run? Im at 14 lands right now and often times i get great turn 2-3 kill hands that i eventually had to mulligan because they had 0-1 lands. With wasteland being rampant where i play one land is definitely not enough in the opening 7.

The 13 lands has been working all right for me so far, I still get hands that have 2x coliseum in it way more than I would like to, and I definitely do not want to drop the coliseum count down since it allows us to win turn 2. Since I am running some more costly cards in my board I could always run the 14th land in my SB to help me cast null rod(which I am growing to like more and more- I would suggest trying it out) Depending on what you can cast on turn 1, having a 1 land hand isnt so bad... Here are a couple hand scenarios for us to discuss: all against an unknown opponent, on the play:

1. PImp, study, mine, troll, thug, city, therapy (do you lead with PImp? or study?)

2. Pimp, tribe, breakthough, ichorid, mine, study, city (no dredgers, but awesome draw, and enough lands to breakthough for x=1 turn 2)-keep? or mull

3. therapy, mine, grave troll x2, ichorid, breakthrough, stinkweed - no turn 1 discard outside of therapying yourself for troll, possible turn 2 breakthrough- keep? mull?

bum_man
04-30-2009, 01:00 PM
May be my deck is just sucking out on me but often times it gives me 0-1 land hands that most of the time I'm not that comfortable running with wastelands running rampant where i play.

About the hands:


1. PImp, study, mine, troll, thug, city, therapy (do you lead with PImp? or study?)
Against an unknown opponent, I'd lead out with mine into Pimp. On the 2nd turn, i probably have a clue already on what deck he'd be playing, id therapy first then studying into troll and hopefully for the win.


2. Pimp, tribe, breakthough, ichorid, mine, study, city (no dredgers, but awesome draw, and enough lands to breakthough for x=1 turn 2)-keep? or mull
I'd keep this, leading out with mine tribe, then Pimp into study the following turn. I have the same number of dredgers and draw engines in the deck with 12. So assuming i'd mulligan into sumthing with a dredger without a draw spell, I have more or less the same odds of hitting a dredger here than hitting a draw spell if i mull'd into a hand with land, outlet and dredger.


3. therapy, mine, grave troll x2, ichorid, breakthrough, stinkweed - no turn 1 discard outside of therapying yourself for troll, possible turn 2 breakthrough- keep? mull?
Against red, i'd probably play this. Against rock and blue i'd mull this. These are the more popular decks in my meta. Against an unknown opponent i'd mull this hand. its too risky, if the breaktrhough gets countered or duressd/thoughtseized away im toast.

Off the top of my head this how i'd play this. You'd probably play these differently, right? ^^

Ozymandias
04-30-2009, 01:35 PM
1. Pimp, Study, Mine, Troll, Thug, City, Therapy

Here what you do is Mine, therapy naming Force of Will. Then, no matter what, you're pretty much set. If your opp wastes your t1 land, you drop the imp, discard in t3 upkeep, and Study. If your opponent plays a blue land, you know what counter to play around. Other than that, you should have no prob winning.

2. imp, tribe, breakthough, ichorid, mine, study, city

No Dredgers is basically an auto-mull. THis deck mulls very well, but if you get a study or breakthroug countered, you're way, way too slow.

Therapy, Mine, Grave troll x2, Ichorid, Breakthrough, Stinkweed.

Again, the reason you're playing LEDless dredge is to have more repeatable dicard outlets and mana sources. I'd probably mull this as well.

bum_man
04-30-2009, 02:05 PM
The first hand, yup, yours is better play. Im used to my opponents just letting Pimp resolve, they usually look out for my draw spells. My bad.

As for the second hand, true it seems slow but the problem with dredging every turn without the help of a draw spell is that i commit alot in my graveyard that in previous instances i got caught off-guard with a md crypt via trinket mage or a jotun grunt with a long life and even a withered wretch once. So most of the time, i do try to move away from over-committing cards to my graveyard.

OT although in relation to hand 2: How do you guys decide whether to draw or dredge on your draw step? Assuming you started with the standard outlet, land, dredger in the opening hand, do you guys dredge all the way until you dredge into either return/sage or a lethatl FKZ return or you draw till you get a decent draw spell?

Ozymandias
04-30-2009, 04:05 PM
Ichorid is actually the deck that most ably defines aggro-combo. That means that you don't actually need to win most of your games through NarcoBridge- it's just the fastest way. You can quite easily beat down an opponent, even without draw spells. Basically, all you need is to do is keep dredging to turn over more Ichorids, Therapies, Narcomoebas, and Bridges. Then, you will effectively be drawing multiple cards per turn instead of one.

Pulp_Fiction
04-30-2009, 04:36 PM
@Joe_C: If you really want to try out Unmask, post your current decklist and get everyone's input on what would be cut; or post a decklist with Unmask in it and tell us what your are missing in it and what you would like it to do, thoughts, how it plays etc.

I personally hate Unmask, now in the combo matchup it is some hot shit but in almost every other matchup I just stare at my opening hand and think to myself "damn, I don't want to remove any of these cards from the game." Only card I would really want to remove to Unmask is Ichorid or a second PImp in hand, potentially DR would be decent but I just don't like it. Later on, not having that extra Therapy or Bridge could prove very problematic.

Raptor
04-30-2009, 11:09 PM
Hello ! This is the list I ran tonight
// Lands (14)
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Undiscovered Paradise
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

// Creatures
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
3 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Tireless Tribe
4 Putrid Imp

// Spells
3 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough


// Sideboard
3 Wishpmare
4 Pithing Needle
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Ichorid
3 Firestorm

I top'd 8 in a 28 men tournament. But it didn't went that well

First matchup: Goblins
2-0
The goblin deck was kind of "random" (running lightning bolt, fireblast, no Port, no wastedland and I think he had no piledriver)
First game; stalled the early game with my Tireless Tribe when he had lackey. He attacked me and I killed his lackey. I dredge'd like pure shit, and I kept a 6 cards hand but I had no draw outlet. (big mistakes, but I did a lot of mulligans in the tournament. I had like a hand with 6 lands, and after a hand with 0 land...) But I finally dredged into some good things and proceeded to kill him.

game 2, he had vial, but I dredge into some Narco and therapy and he only had high costed goblins, I therapy'd them later on because I dredge into therapy. And after some times I finally dredge into brige and killed him. (for the game 2, I sided in 4 needle)

Match up 2 : Merfolk
0-2
I lost big time to this list, I've found merfolk to be my worst match up and I might need some help on what to change in my list in a meta with lot of merfolk. They have Cursecatcher, daze, Fow, Wastedland, Jitte and Waketrasher that can piss us off a lot
First game : mulled to 5. Got my study FOW. Then he put his vial and jitte. I got slowed down a lot, had some good dredge. He had 2 mutavaults and he killed his own mutavault to break my bridge... I kill his second mutavault with a zombie that I've made earlier. Then I had some recuring ichorid that got him down to about ~14... but he drew a merfolk and he was killing my 2 ichorids and I lost

Game 2 : I sided in 4 Needle... Mull'd to 5. He got in the game 3 wasted land, a daze, 2 Relic, a cursecatcher, a waketrasher...


Match up 3 : Agaisnt a random white deck.
Game 1 : killed him turn 4
Game 2 : killed him turn 3

The problems that I've found with my list is that the deck is sometimes REALLY SLOW. versus deck and playtesting 4-5 games before tournament, I had like turn 10 kills.... ALso, I've had LOTS of crappy hand, like 0 land, 75% lands hand... No draw outlet hands or no discard outlet. In past tournament I've found some problems such as not winning the game 1.
I've had some problems with FOW slowing me down way too much.
By the way, I got some nice hands versus random deck and awful ones vs good decks XD
The problem of this tournament is that I didn't really play agaisnt competitive deck (except merfolk) and I lost to the only non-conpetitive deck that I've faced.

But when this deck had a decent hand, it works like a wonder.
I might try LED version next week and see how it works because my friend can lend me 4 LED

Joe_C
05-01-2009, 12:31 PM
1. PImp, study, mine, troll, thug, city, therapy (do you lead with PImp? or study?)

2. Pimp, tribe, breakthough, ichorid, mine, study, city (no dredgers, but awesome draw, and enough lands to breakthough for x=1 turn 2)-keep? or mull

3. therapy, mine, grave troll x2, ichorid, breakthrough, stinkweed - no turn 1 discard outside of therapying yourself for troll, possible turn 2 breakthrough- keep? mull?

What I would do:

hand 1) Turn 1: Play mine, cast careful study{hoping to draw a breakthrough}, discard troll and something else(thug, if I didnt draw a stinkweed or something) pass turn. Turn 2: Is dependant on what I drew off of study and what my opponent did turn 1. Against blue if I drew breakthrough- draw for turn, play city, play putrid imp(will most likey draw a counter out), then I will sit there and sweat my opponent for information by looking through my hand and glancing back at them to try to determine if they are holding another counter. If I think I can resolve breakthrough, go for it and play it.- against blue if I didnt draw breakthrough- Dredge for the draw step, play city, play therapy naming FOW, if I can cast imp afterwards, play it(now i am in good shape for the next few turns). Against anything not blue- turn 2 I dredge for draw, make a good guess at what they are playing and blind therapy a strong card choice, then land putrid imp.

hand 2) Ive kept hands like this since you can breakthrough for x=1 on turn 2 and you have a study to help dig on turn 1. After knowing what my opponent is playing, this gets riskier, but it has potential and I am percentage wise most likely to get a dredger than going to 6 cards.

hand 3) keep and therapy myself naming troll. hope I can go ape shit next turn with a breakthrough. if not I still have 2 trolls in the grave to get the ichorid beats going

b4r0n
05-01-2009, 12:48 PM
What I would do:

hand 1) Turn 1: Play mine, cast careful study{hoping to draw a breakthrough}, discard troll and something else(thug, if I didnt draw a stinkweed or something) pass turn. Turn 2: Is dependant on what I drew off of study and what my opponent did turn 1. Against blue if I drew breakthrough- draw for turn, play city, play putrid imp(will most likey draw a counter out), then I will sit there and sweat my opponent for information by looking through my hand and glancing back at them to try to determine if they are holding another counter. If I think I can resolve breakthrough, go for it and play it.- against blue if I didnt draw breakthrough- Dredge for the draw step, play city, play therapy naming FOW, if I can cast imp afterwards, play it(now i am in good shape for the next few turns). Against anything not blue- turn 2 I dredge for draw, make a good guess at what they are playing and blind therapy a strong card choice, then land putrid imp.

hand 2) Ive kept hands like this since you can breakthrough for x=1 on turn 2 and you have a study to help dig on turn 1. After knowing what my opponent is playing, this gets riskier, but it has potential and I am percentage wise most likely to get a dredger than going to 6 cards.

hand 3) keep and therapy myself naming troll. hope I can go ape shit next turn with a breakthrough. if not I still have 2 trolls in the grave to get the ichorid beats going

For that first hand, if you think you're playing against blue, it might be best to lead with turn 1 Therapy on Force, then go nuts on turn 2 with Imp (pitch GGT and Thug) then Careful Study. Otherwise, I would lead with Imp and start dredging a lot on turn 2 (draw step and Careful Study).

I would keep the second hand. It's more important to open a hand with lands and discard outlets than a hand with dredgers. I'd play the Tribe turn 1. My turn 2 play would depend on what my opponent did and what I drew for the turn.

I don't think I'd keep that third hand unless I knew for sure what I was playing against (i.e. no Wastelands, no Dazes). And even then, I'd probably toss it back.

bum_man
05-01-2009, 01:37 PM
@Guitar: This afternoon i played in a tournament with merfolk as one of my match-ups. I agree that this match-up is very problematic. I lost 0-2. I mulliganed both games to 5. In both games i just wasn't able to get the dredge game going. my outlets got countered in both games, i just wasn't able to dredge out my library to get the ichorids online. The game was a real beating. The key to this match-up was getting the ichorid beats going as soon as turn 2-3, this just didn't happen.

In two tournaments, I played a 2/2 thug and darkblast split and it seems terrible. I wasn't able to fully utilize both at times. Im going back to my old list that is exactly the same as what Pulp_Fiction is running. I'll just keep my 3 thugs in check against tournaments that doesn't have alot of blue and my 4th breakthrough for the 4th therapy against tournaments that doesn't have a lot of blue. ^^

@Joe_C:
hand 1: Isn't better to therapy for FOW turn 1 and play city and Imp for turn 2 just in case an opponent has daze or sumthing? from my experience the study will more or less get countered. I played a hand like this earlier against merfolk, i was able to resolve the imp and was able to dredge but without the draw spell (got countered turn 1) i wasn't able to dredge fast enough, he was able to bring out a wake thrasher via vial, 2 mutavaults and a standstill. @_@

Joe_C
05-01-2009, 05:54 PM
@Joe_C:
hand 1: Isn't better to therapy for FOW turn 1 and play city and Imp for turn 2 just in case an opponent has daze or sumthing? from my experience the study will more or less get countered. I played a hand like this earlier against merfolk, i was able to resolve the imp and was able to dredge but without the draw spell (got countered turn 1) i wasn't able to dredge fast enough, he was able to bring out a wake thrasher via vial, 2 mutavaults and a standstill. @_@

I prefer to cast study since we do not know what we are playing against. if they counter the study, our turn 2 still has a "daze free" imp or you can therapy then play imp. Losing the chance at drawing into turn 2 breakthrough wants me not want to blind therapy turn 1. There may be situations where you get shafted by playing this way, but they need 2x counter withing their top 8-10 cards(assuming they can brainstorm etc...) to be able to put a halt to your plans, you cant play this deck too scared or you will miss opportunities to get explosive starts

Pulp_Fiction
05-03-2009, 02:15 PM
1. PImp, study, mine, troll, thug, city, therapy (do you lead with PImp? or study?)

2. Pimp, tribe, breakthough, ichorid, mine, study, city (no dredgers, but awesome draw, and enough lands to breakthough for x=1 turn 2)-keep? or mull

3. therapy, mine, grave troll x2, ichorid, breakthrough, stinkweed - no turn 1 discard outside of therapying yourself for troll, possible turn 2 breakthrough- keep? mull?

1. Play City and cast PImp. Upkeep give him flying and dredge then discard GGT again and cast Study and keep going. I may Therapy before casting Study, depending on whether or not they played an island.

2. I will always mull this hand, I never keep a hand without a dredger, to many times I have done that and it just fails; unless you mull down to 5 cards and the hand is something like land, Tribe/PImp, Study, Therapy, land but I would never keep a 7 card hand like that.

3. I would mull this also, its garbage and totally reliant on the top 12 cards of your library. At best you have a turn 3-4 win and that is being generous and getting very lucky with dredges.

AcidFiend
05-03-2009, 08:32 PM
I'll be playing in a fairly small field in a couple of weeks, probably 12 people, but theres a chance of another Dredge deck, plenty of CounterTop, couple of Stax decks, Burn, Threshold & Goblins.

I just wanted to ask about the Mirror match, since it hasn't been discussed much.

What do you side in and what are the key plays?

On another note, I think I am being a little greedy in my sideboard with multiple 'ooh this would be cool to reanimate' cards. Theres only so much room, so which are the optimal ones to keep?

Empirical Archangel
Woodfall Primus
Inkwell Leviathan
Sundering Titan
Ancestors Chosen

Archangel/Ancestors Chosen are for Burn/Goblins, altho Chosen could potentially help against ANT as well. Inkwell Leviathan is possibly overkill, but with so much CounterTop around, if my Bridges were removed I wanted a surprise way to smash face. Sundering Titan can just punish all those dual lands, however maybe win-more.

I wanted one maindeck (1 Sage, 2 Ichorid, 1 Reanimate Target, 3 DR) for a surprise/fun factor, and can probably only fit two in the board. Which means two have to go.. instinct tells me Archangel and Sundering Titan.

Edit: for reference, my board is now:
4x Pithing Needle
4x Chain of Vapor
4 x Chalice of the Void
1x Ancestor's Chosen
1x Inkwell Leviathan
1x Wispmare

Joe_C
05-04-2009, 06:30 AM
Ok, Ive decided that I want more dredgers in this deck... Here is what I am playing at the moment:

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Tarnished Citadel

3 Ichorid
4 Golgari-Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Bridge from Below
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
2 Cephalid Sage
4 Breakthrough
2 Tireless Tribe
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
2 Darkblast

SB:
4 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
3 Firestorm
3 Wispmare
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Tarnished Citadel

From my previous builds, this is -1 careful study, -1 ichorid, +2 darkblast. At 14 dredgers now and it feels pretty comfortable. Darkblast adds a turn 1 answer for goblins, jailer, and plenty of other x/1, x/2 creatures. Thoughts?

Ciberon
05-04-2009, 11:41 AM
Why Null Rod on the sideboard, Joe?

Joe_C
05-04-2009, 12:02 PM
Why Null Rod on the sideboard, Joe?

because in 1 card it shuts off relic and tormods crypt. Playing needle on 1 or the other just to have them drop the one you didnt name really sucks. also its good against combo! all their moxes and LED's do nothing. For the 2cc its worth running

Jaynel
05-04-2009, 12:43 PM
Why Null Rod on the sideboard, Joe?

How ridiculous is Null Rod? Let me count the ways:

1. Relic of Progenitus
2. Tormod's Crypt
3. Sensei's Divining Top
4. Engineered Explosives, Powder Keg
5. Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, Lion's Eye Diamond

It's pretty much 2 Pithing Needles rolled into one. While the primary function is to shut off BOTH Relic and Crypt with one card, it has incredible splash damage across the format.

bum_man
05-04-2009, 12:46 PM
Nice list Joe, the deck looks really fast and explosive in the first few turns and solid in the mid to late game.

Don't you find hands that have been better had a thug been a draw spell? How was your post-board testing? Aren't you having problems looking for answers or additional lands post-board without the draw power of the two other studies? Apart from mulling to answers drawing into them through studies are one of the decks strongest plays imo.

Oh and another thing, how was your blast and thug split? I used to run a 2/2 split on thugs and blasts, one seem to weaken the other because of the split, I just ended dropping the split. I felt that thug wasn't optimal in the slots that it took up i ended up going back to the 4th breakthrough and 3rd blast. Maybe you're able to utilize thugs better since you play more dredgers than the usual.

Apart from those inquiries, the list looks great, especially the inclusion of null rod, i may find myself looking for a playset of these. I'd be testing your list and ill see how it plays, it looks like it can really kick ass.

Pulp_Fiction
05-04-2009, 02:04 PM
Interesting take. I would really be scared of playing less than 14 lands. How has 13 worked for you? Do you find that you mulligan more? Only thing I would think would make the deck better is -2 Thug, +1 Darkblast, +1 Careful Study. I would not suggest 4x Breakthrough but your list seems more geared towards speed so 4x is probably the right number.

Joe_C
05-04-2009, 05:01 PM
Interesting take. I would really be scared of playing less than 14 lands. How has 13 worked for you? Do you find that you mulligan more? Only thing I would think would make the deck better is -2 Thug, +1 Darkblast, +1 Careful Study. I would not suggest 4x Breakthrough but your list seems more geared towards speed so 4x is probably the right number.

The 13 land manabase has been good to me so far. If I get into matches that run wasteland, I can always bring in the 14th land from the board. I cant say that running 13 lands makes me mull any more than usual. I try to aim for explosive starts or ones that at least get me an imp or tribe out on turn 1. I may consider dropping ichorids down to 2x so I can run the 3rd careful study, I may also drop 1 breakthrough for the 3rd tribe. There are really a ton of possibilities with this deck and the card quantities, they all work at some point in time or another. Im trying to get really consistent turn 2-4 wins, bumping up my dredge count and focusing more on the combo instead of ichorid recursion is my best way to do so in my opinion.

AcidFiend
05-04-2009, 09:25 PM
As posted above, can anyone share their experiences/thoughts on the Mirror?

Joe_C
05-05-2009, 04:54 AM
As posted above, can anyone share their experiences/thoughts on the Mirror?

Are you talking about the exact mirror? or facing lists that run LED? If you fear them running Leyline, bring in your chain of vapors and your wispmare. The mirror is pretty much about controlling the ground game... Whoever gets ahead in the creature race will pretty much win. Running darkblast is good in this matchup, also Firestorm would be beneficial...

Pulp_Fiction
05-05-2009, 05:02 AM
The mirror is basically just a race and a battle of dorks. I personally have never lost the mirror, I usually name Breakthrough with Therapy and mull into hands that have Imp/Tribe and dredger. And Darkblast is usually very good in the mirror, just place other Narcomoeba trigger in the stack and kill theirs or kill your creatures to remove their Bridges. But usually the games are decided by beatdown with threshed Imps and shit.

badjuju
05-08-2009, 04:06 AM
Hey guys,

I've already consulted several of you about this deck. I used to play LED dredge, and while I recognize the power of that variant, games 2 and 3 are always awkward beyond words. It always comes down to your opponent keeping a really bad hand full of hate and you sitting their twiddling your thumbs while you wait for more mana so you can go the man plan or cast your anti-hate cards. By adding lands, I can already tell that the deck is making a successful step towards resilience and consistency over breakneck speed that isn't necessarily needed.

A few things I'd like to note, transitioning from Parcher's build to this one:

-I really like Unmask. I know a lot of people haven't had the most success with it, but I honestly feel like it's one of the deck's best tools. Ripping threats, counters, and hate straight out of your opponent's hand is a godsend. Even if it does slow you down, it slows your opponent down just as much if not more. Coupled with Cabal Therapy, you're setting up your deck to do some very mean things.
- Firestorm has been amazing in testing. A board wipe followed by nasty dredges the following turn can really turn some matchups upside down easier than ever before(note Goblins). I'm really interested to see what results Guitar's variant using Firestorms over Tireless Tribes put up, because I really want to try it myself.
- I am in love with Eternal Witness in this deck, with or without LED. I understand that she's isn't as ridiculous in this deck solely because LED isn't in it, but I've been in countless situations where she performed just as well, if not better than Cephalid Sage. Her versatility is unparalleled, and even when you're comboing off, you can fetch for a Breakthrough or a Cephalid Coliseum. Since the deck takes a slower pace, the chances of you having enough mana to play either of those is very high. She also helps tremendously in games 2 and 3.
- I know Parcher doesn't run fatties, but I've always been a fan of running an extra utility creature MB. I play in a metagame with a lot of random decks, so I never know what I'll run into game 1 that would need my immediate attention. Hence, Angel of Despair. Totally preference call, but I don't think it's so bad since she can be Ichorid food.

Here's the decklist (that I've yet to test):

// Lands
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
4 [AN] City of Brass
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
2 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
2 [OD] Tireless Tribe
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [GP] Angel of Despair
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot

// Spells
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [OD] Careful Study
3 [TSP] Dread Return
3 [TO] Breakthrough

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 [WL] Firestorm
SB: 4 [WL] Null Rod
SB: 3 [MM] Unmask

More notes:

-No room for Unmask MB unless I wanted to cut Careful Study. Since the deck doesn't have broke-ass turns that can win off LED and DA alone, Careful Study might be a better pick.
-I want to try Firestorm over Tireless Tribe MD.
-The board is still iffy for me. I kinda want to have Wispermare or Ray of Revelation in there, so I think I might cut down on Chain of Vapors. I also really want to have 4 Unmasks. I'm in a dilemma.
-This is for a metagame full of aggro, aggro-control, and random (of course still a handful of control and combo, but primarily the former 3).
-Would you follow the same SB strategies as posted on the first page if you were to run this variant?

Any help is appreciated !

Joe_C
05-08-2009, 06:42 AM
Yesmilord: I think you want more than just 4 answers to leyline if it hits. Wispmare and chain of vapor have been great working together for me.

badjuju
05-08-2009, 01:21 PM
Yesmilord: I think you want more than just 4 answers to leyline if it hits. Wispmare and chain of vapor have been great working together for me.

Yea I was thinking about adding more enchantment hate, but I really don't think I will see Leyline. If anything, I might run into the guy that runs White Stax every time, and that'll be the real problem :/

keys
05-08-2009, 01:24 PM
You could use 2 Firestorm main deck instead of the Tribes, and that gives you two spots for Wispmare in the SB.

Also, I don't see any reason to play less than 4 Breakthrough.

Joe_C
05-08-2009, 05:29 PM
After going through the motions with this deck over 100x during the past week, I have settled on this list:

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel

3 Ichorid
4 Golgari-Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Bridge from Below
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Careful Study
2 Dread Return
1 Cephalid Sage
4 Breakthrough
3 Tireless Tribe
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
2 Darkblast

SB:
4 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
4 Firestorm
3 Wispmare
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Ancestor's Chosen

Ok, so I really never want to drop below 14 dredge cards going into g1. G2 and 3 depending on the matchup I can drop darkblast and such to get more hate cards in etc... Running 14 lands again helps the mulligans, also this formation gets me the highest chances of obtaining a strong opening grip since I run 7 Imp effects, 4 breakthrough and 3 study. This gives me a good chance at having: land, discard effect such as tribe/imp, and a study or breakthough, and a dredge card in my opening hand. Our turn 1's are really important g1. I want to make my turn 1 "keep" hands more frequent.

bum_man
05-09-2009, 08:42 PM
-I really like Unmask. I know a lot of people haven't had the most success with it, but I honestly feel like it's one of the deck's best tools. Ripping threats, counters, and hate straight out of your opponent's hand is a godsend. Even if it does slow you down, it slows your opponent down just as much if not more. Coupled with Cabal Therapy, you're setting up your deck to do some very mean things.

I'm not really convinced that Unmask is as strong in this deck as it was in vintage or in LED Dredge imo, at least in the mainboard. Its mainboard slots take-up slots that thin-out the combo by replacing draw engines or discard outlets most of which meddles with the consistency of the deck. In most list, unmasks take-up slots of careful study, which i think is terrible since study has been the decks more powerful engines. Apart from this, Unmask requires you to pitch a combo card, either a therapy, Pimp, Thug/Darkblast, Ichorid, Bridge, all of which are great cards, I can only see myself pitching ichorid or thug/blast for this card, this makes it situational. Unmask is a great spell, I just don't think it's worth slowing down the deck down for it, especially on game 1s.


- Firestorm has been amazing in testing. A board wipe followed by nasty dredges the following turn can really turn some matchups upside down easier than ever before(note Goblins). I'm really interested to see what results Guitar's variant using Firestorms over Tireless Tribes put up, because I really want to try it myself.

I'm also curious to see if md firestorms are worth running over tribes. Although tribe is more efficient since it's a permanent outlet, it sacs to therapy and return, it attacks and blocks all which are great compared to board cleaners. I do think its great in metas full of merfolk, faeries, goblins, and hate bears (jailer, samurai of the pale curtain, teeg).


- I am in love with Eternal Witness in this deck, with or without LED. I understand that she's isn't as ridiculous in this deck solely because LED isn't in it, but I've been in countless situations where she performed just as well, if not better than Cephalid Sage. Her versatility is unparalleled, and even when you're comboing off, you can fetch for a Breakthrough or a Cephalid Coliseum. Since the deck takes a slower pace, the chances of you having enough mana to play either of those is very high. She also helps tremendously in games 2 and 3.

I've also been wanting to test out Witness in this deck, it seems great especially given that this deck has more utility slots than LED Decks. I'll try it in a split with a Sage and see if it works.


- I know Parcher doesn't run fatties, but I've always been a fan of running an extra utility creature MB. I play in a metagame with a lot of random decks, so I never know what I'll run into game 1 that would need my immediate attention. Hence, Angel of Despair. Totally preference call, but I don't think it's so bad since she can be Ichorid food.

I don't really like the random fattie md because it doesn't win games now unlike sage or witness. This probably is a meta call or preference call but personally i don't like it md.



Here's the decklist (that I've yet to test):

// Lands
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
4 [AN] City of Brass
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
2 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
2 [OD] Tireless Tribe
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [GP] Angel of Despair
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot

// Spells
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [OD] Careful Study
3 [TSP] Dread Return
3 [TO] Breakthrough

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 [WL] Firestorm
SB: 4 [WL] Null Rod
SB: 3 [MM] Unmask

Any help is appreciated !

The deck looks really solid, just some of the things i've noticed:

*2 Paradise is terrible imo. Don't you find yourself time-walking yourself often because of the delay it brings? 1 is terrible enough for me, i can't imagine running two. Try citadel, its drawback is irrelevant since you usually win fast.

*4 Ichorid, don't you think it's too much? it's relatively dead in the opening hand and in the early parts of the game since you want to combo-out. In most cases you'd want to dredge into ichorid not draw into it.

*In a field of aggro try darkblasts instead of thugs and see if it works. My meta seems similar to yours, and it's been really great.

*The random fattie is cute but i don't think it efficient enough md since it doesn't win games

as for the sb, i'd probably take-out a firestorm and chain of vapor for two wispmares. You need wispmares, definitely ^^ Most lists of the deck have relatively the same skeletons so more or less sideboarding are just the same.

Goodluck with the deck, hope you kick-ass with it ^^

claudio.r
05-11-2009, 09:59 AM
So I played this list yesterday to a nice 3-1 finish:

4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Putrid Imp
3 Ichorid
3 Tireless Tribe
1 Empyrial Archangel
2 Golgari Thug
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Bridge Frome Below
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
3 Dread Return
4 Careful Study
2 Darkblast

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City Of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel

All the usual suspects. I really didn't know what i was going to face, so I opted to split 2/2 darkblast and golgari thug, since i really wanted the 12 dredgers.
Empyrial Archangel proved to be really good as won me 2 games against merfolk and one against sligh/burn.

It was all the way slower than i thought it wwould be, but having the mana and the means to hold the game until you go off, or just beatdown with ichorid or archangel was really worth it. A friend of mine told me that i would never think a dredge list could be "so consistent". :smile:

The sideboard was completely random as i didn't had all the cards then:

2 Crippling Fatigue
4 Duress
2 Wispmare
1 Ray Of Revelation
3 Echoing Truth
1 Chain Of Vapor
2 Ancient Grudge

So, besides the sideboard, wich as to be completed (+3 chain of vapor, maybe unmask, all for wispmares), what do you guys think about my list ? Any sugestion ?

Thx (Sorry about my english :wink: )

Pulp_Fiction
05-11-2009, 07:43 PM
Good finish, Merfolk is a shitty matchup, especially with maindeck Relics. I am wondering why you chose to play Archangel over Cephalid Sage. I have said this repeatedly about playing other reanimation targets, why reanimate a fatty when you can just win? DR the Sage and mill 17-18 cards from your deck and you will hit something. Maybe you have to DR the Sage again but why do you want a fatty when you could just win the game right there? You will also notice a big difference in speed when you play 1-2 Cephalid Sage.

Everything else looks good, Darkblast should only be run if you expect a lot of Affinity, Goyf Sligh, and Goblins (both staples in my meta) otherwise the Thug is better.

I have been running 3x Therapy for a while but after a lot of testing and tournament play, I really like 4. While this is not something that makes or breaks the deck, 4x Therapy is very nice to have.

claudio.r
05-12-2009, 09:55 AM
I played Archangel mostly because i didn't had any sage... But i like to have a different win condition, it might be useful when facing some matchups or specific cards like EE or echoing truth.

Cabal Therapy was really really good all the way but i never felt the need for the 4º one.

And for the sideboard, what do you recommend ?

Pulp_Fiction
05-12-2009, 05:08 PM
SB is all meta dependent but I usually run:

4x Wispmare
4x Pithing Needle
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Chain of Vapor

You can mix and match the card numbers but the SB MUST have Pithing Needles in it. This is what I run when I play the deck. You really don't need alternate win cons, Ichorid dominates and if you want to DR a fatty just bring back a 15/15+ GGT. Don't worry about EE and bounce, they answer your army once, but can't compete with constant threats.

hwtcharger07
05-12-2009, 08:09 PM
I'm running a non led list and i just switched from a landbase of

3 underground sea
4 cephalid colliseum
3 city of brass
7 onslaught sac lands

to

4 gemstone mine
4 city of brass
4 cephalid colliseum

because i realised that the underground seas plus sac lands were worth 300 or so, so i sold the underground sea and am about to do the same with the sac lands, plus i dont have the leds of the money to drop on them.

this is the current list i am working with:

potatoes: 14
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel

meat:
3 Ichorid
4 Golgari-Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Bridge from Below
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
2 Cephalid Sage
4 Breakthrough
3 Tireless Tribe
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
2 Darkblast

SB:
3 null rod
4 Firestorm
4 Wispmare/ray of revalation
4 Chain of Vapor

this is the mess I am looking at, i think this is by now the agreed up mana base, as for the three ichorid im not sure if that is optimal if there are enough black things to eat or not, joe i saw in you new optimal list you cut DR and CS down to 2 and 1 respectively and i am not sure i am a fan of that, the point of (imho) of ichorid plus 7 sac outlets is to ensure you can DR moderately early in to a CS in order to win more consistantly without LED. with one CS how can you usualy dredge the rest of your graveyard in a timely manner. I am only running 10 dredgers, I am hoping that with 10 dredgers plus 10 card drawers (counting colliseum) i can get one into the yard plus the sac outlet on the board (tireless or Pimp), I am hoping this is enough. any comments on md would be great.

as to the sideboard i notic most people have been in favor of wispmare over ray of revelation? i am unsure of the reasoning behind this do they hope to evoke and DR? it seems like you wouldn't hardcast it to flashback cabal but I may be wrong. anyone with any insight for this please give me an explantion. thanks for all the help guys.

Raptor
05-12-2009, 09:46 PM
I'm running a non led list and i just switched from a landbase of

3 underground sea
4 cephalid colliseum
3 city of brass
7 onslaught sac lands

to

4 gemstone mine
4 city of brass
4 cephalid colliseum

because i realised that the underground seas plus sac lands were worth 300 or so, so i sold the underground sea and am about to do the same with the sac lands, plus i dont have the leds of the money to drop on them.

this is the current list i am working with:

potatoes: 14
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel

meat:
3 Ichorid
4 Golgari-Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Bridge from Below
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
2 Cephalid Sage
4 Breakthrough
3 Tireless Tribe
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
2 Darkblast

SB:
3 null rod
4 Firestorm
4 Wispmare/ray of revalation
4 Chain of Vapor

this is the mess I am looking at, i think this is by now the agreed up mana base, as for the three ichorid im not sure if that is optimal if there are enough black things to eat or not, joe i saw in you new optimal list you cut DR and CS down to 2 and 1 respectively and i am not sure i am a fan of that, the point of (imho) of ichorid plus 7 sac outlets is to ensure you can DR moderately early in to a CS in order to win more consistantly without LED. with one CS how can you usualy dredge the rest of your graveyard in a timely manner. I am only running 10 dredgers, I am hoping that with 10 dredgers plus 10 card drawers (counting colliseum) i can get one into the yard plus the sac outlet on the board (tireless or Pimp), I am hoping this is enough. any comments on md would be great.

as to the sideboard i notic most people have been in favor of wispmare over ray of revelation? i am unsure of the reasoning behind this do they hope to evoke and DR? it seems like you wouldn't hardcast it to flashback cabal but I may be wrong. anyone with any insight for this please give me an explantion. thanks for all the help guys.

For you version, you should probally add a 3rd study, you might frequently have some hands without any draw ressources.
You should add the 11th dredger for the constancy. If your playing firestorm in SB, golgary thug might just be better then darkblast in lot of cases.
Also, I think 2 sages is way too much overkill. You don't want to DR into 2 of them, if you DR in one of them, it's usually win. 1 MD would probally be better.

For your SB, I would probally run the 4th Null rod instead of the 4th wishpmare or the 4th Chain of vapor.

The good thing about wishpmare is, if the guy puts a T1 leyline, you can most likely answer it the next the turn. And you would need for another land for the ray of relevetion.
Also, wishpmare can be dread returned in some extreme cases.
Plus, if you evoke wishpmare, you will have the tokens from bridge.

jimirynk
05-13-2009, 01:08 AM
I've been testing this deck for about 2 months now and finally checked the source to see if people had started to discuss LEDless dregde yet.
After reading the 12 pages I thought I would post my list and I hope people will discuss what they think and ask me questions to as why.


// Lands
2 Tarnished Citadel
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum

// Creatures
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
3 Ichorid
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Reveillark
4 Stinkweed Imp

// Spells
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
4 Breakthrough

// Sideboard
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Pithing Needle
4 Wispmare
4 Null Rod
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Darkblast
1 Inkwell Leviathan



I will break it all down as soon as my finals pass and I get the time, but I'm very happy with my list.
I might cut a land to the board and up the Golgari Thug up to 4.

The sideboard is also not set in stone, but it is the stage it is now through rigorous testing it is not just a pile as it might look.=P

hwtcharger07
05-13-2009, 01:02 PM
potatoes: 14
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel

meat:
2 Ichorid
4 Golgari-Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 golgari thug
4 Bridge from Below
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
2 Cephalid Sage
4 Breakthrough
3 Tireless Tribe
1 Flame-Kin Zealot


SB:
3 Wispmare
4 null rod
4 Firestorm
4 Chain of Vapor

Thanks for the thug and wispmare tip, i had forgot wispmare triggered bridge, as for sage the reason i have two is because i want to almost garuntee i have one in the graveyard on the second or third turn, in order to DR it and go off as soon a possible. I think the two CS help give the deck some consistency that the LED version lacks. Joe C I would really like to hear your thoughts on the two sages as you list recently dropped from 3dr and 2 sage to 2 dr and 1 sage it seems like you would be going more for ichorid beatdown and the combo kill more often because of this. In order to add a third careful study i also dropped an ichorid and swapped out the darkblasts for the thugs as thug can be eaten by ichorid.

any thoughts would be much appreciated.

@ jimirynk, have you tried cephalid sage over lark i think general concensus was lark was win more as oppossed to win games you shouldn't. other wise everything looks pretty solid to me

in regard to your sideboard though the last 4 seem slightly "off to me" i guess the leviathan is a good DR target if nothing else but the singleton echoing truth, calm, and chain of vapor seem next to useless with no way to get them into hand besides drawing them, you may be better off trying just 3 chain of vapor? idk some people run singletons in adition to eternal witness to reanimate (as far as im concerned thats fairly janky) but i dont see that in your list.

bum_man
05-13-2009, 02:41 PM
@hwtcharger07: im not sure but i think your list lacks 2 two cards. Thats only a 58 card maindeck. I suggest running the 3rd ichorid and the 3rd thug in those slots. Both are for consistency, in hitting dredgers and hitting ichorids alot with ichorid fodder. Just check if I'm correct. ^^ How has firestorm been for you? Personally I'm not a big fan of firestorms since i strongly dislike having to go to the sideboard just to look for answer to troublesome critters. I like the two sages, this deck returns two sages more often than people would think, especially post-board.

@claudio.r: your list looks great. How has the split been for you? I tried a list with a split and it seemed to make the deck a little inconsistent. I weren't able to get the blasts when i needed them and the thugs doesn't seem to be at its most effective. Just looking for your experience with it. What decks were you up against? Your results just made me think of testing the split again.

How was not having sage around? Im not really sure if that works well because once your breakthrough gets countered you're off to the aggro plan that often times is just not fast enough. It also makes your turn 2-3 kills a lot less common. I can't imagine this deck being as consistent as it should be without the drawing power that sage gives. I think the sage is better than the archangel because it wins the game in a lot more situations. Oh and the duress in the sb, why? ^^

@jimirynk: how is reveillark been compared to sage? The dredging power that sage gives make reveillark and the creatures you return with it a lot more relevant, like say bigger GGTs. I feel that sage is slightly better against blue over the 4th breakthrough just because its another way to get the deck running especially post-board against blue. How was the non-flashback singletons for you? It seems a tad bit random to have singletons that have different sb roles. Inkwell is great as a return target, its mvp against blue if ever you get to return it, i'm actually thinking of testing one in the sb.

The deck is really starting to see a significant amount of play now. Hope it starts kicking-ass in big tournaments ^^

hwtcharger07
05-13-2009, 03:38 PM
@bum man you are my new best friend i was trying to figure out how to get in the third ichorid and the third thug i did not even notice my list was short.

New final list:

potatoes: 14
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel

meat:
3 Ichorid
4 Golgari-Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 golgari thug
4 Bridge from Below
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
2 Cephalid Sage
4 Breakthrough
3 Tireless Tribe
1 Flame-Kin Zealot


SB:
3 Wispmare
4 null rod
4 tormod's crypt
4 Chain of Vapor

I feel very comfortable with this list besides having just the 14 lands this list i think is pretty tight Bum man in responce to firestorm i havent even tested it, i hear it is pretty ood although it might be sub par in my meta theres a lot of other reanimator, dredge, combo, and counter top running around so i think im going to replace them with crypt, i suppose leyline would be superior but i dont have the cash for that atm what does everyone feel is better vs dredge and other reanimators leyline or tormod's crypt.

thanks

Joe_C
05-13-2009, 06:17 PM
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel

3 Ichorid
4 Golgari-Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Bridge from Below
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
2 Cephalid Sage
3 Breakthrough
2 Tireless Tribe
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
2 Darkblast

SB:
4 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
4 Firestorm
3 Wispmare
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Ancestor's Chosen


Dear God I hate and love this deck at the same time...... After going through the motions with the deck again I came to settle on this list for the time being.

hwtcharger07: as you can see, I have returned to the domain of 2x Sage 3x Dread Return. The turn 2 wins are amazingly increased by this.

I wish I could justify the 4th breakthrough. I refuse to go below 14 dredgers, I mull WAY less than before since I put the thugs at 4 and the 2 darkblasts main(which can catch people off guard g1 and has come in handy several times). So far I am loving the maindeck and the board. I may get a chance to play this in NY on the 30th(kinda depends if I actually go or not)

jimirynk
05-13-2009, 08:46 PM
@ jimirynk, have you tried cephalid sage over lark i think general concensus was lark was win more as oppossed to win games you shouldn't. other wise everything looks pretty solid to me


The lark was a sage for a week or two of testing and I won most games without DR sage at all and then game two end up siding out sage and FKZ. Running lark helps you win without your bridges very easily, if you expect a lot of goblins, merfolk and goyf sligh I think lark might just be better. The games were I did get sage online it was pretty winmore and I always could have also won if it was a lark.




in regard to your sideboard though the last 4 seem slightly "off to me" i guess the leviathan is a good DR target if nothing else but the singleton echoing truth, calm, and chain of vapor seem next to useless with no way to get them into hand besides drawing them, you may be better off trying just 3 chain of vapor? idk some people run singletons in adition to eternal witness to reanimate (as far as im concerned thats fairly janky) but i dont see that in your list.

The one echoing calm I cut for a darkblast.
My board is made up of the essential 4x imo this is 4 wispmare vs. leyline, and 4 null rods vs. the e.e., relic and crypt split.
I feel that you either side in 4 of wisp or rods and then 1-2 of whatever else is needed, this might be wrong but it makes me have 6 cards vs. every tier deck.
Decks were you would side in 2 cov my list sides in 1 cov and one echoing truth. But after testing vs. decks with chalice and leyline I found siding in 4 wisp 1 ancient grudge and 1 echoing truth to be better than the 1 cov.
Also I have never understood the firestorm in the board. Is it vs the gobs matchup? I already have a great gobs matchup do to lark so I think that is why I’ve never tested the spot.
Am I missing something about the firestorm?



@ Joe C why the chosen in the board? I play it in my meta do to the high turn out of mono red burn but I don’t think I will be seeing a lot of that in a established meta. ;/
Is it vs combo and sligh, or am I missing something else?

Weekend Daddy
05-14-2009, 02:12 AM
all right, I'm coming back to M:TG and I;ve been reading up on this deck because it's the only Legacy deck that you can max out purely in foil cards.

couple questions:

Could the addition of Street Wraith help the deck out if there was a way to include it. It just seems that a virtually free 1-for-1 draw that acts as Ichorid food and dredge abuser is part of a recipe for a synergy sandwich.

could SB Angels Grace help against TES matchups as it seems to be one of the more unfavorable matchups that seems to be relatively frequent? It seems (if I recall correctly) that once they cast tendrils, if you can stop it, it's over.

Is Solidarity of any concern?

Is Sage a deck essential or more of a win more-type of card?

Bahamuth
05-14-2009, 04:04 AM
all right, I'm coming back to M:TG and I;ve been reading up on this deck because it's the only Legacy deck that you can max out purely in foil cards.

couple questions:

Could the addition of Street Wraith help the deck out if there was a way to include it. It just seems that a virtually free 1-for-1 draw that acts as Ichorid food and dredge abuser is part of a recipe for a synergy sandwich.

could SB Angels Grace help against TES matchups as it seems to be one of the more unfavorable matchups that seems to be relatively frequent? It seems (if I recall correctly) that once they cast tendrils, if you can stop it, it's over.

Is Solidarity of any concern?

Is Sage a deck essential or more of a win more-type of card?

I doubt this deck has the space to use Street Wraith. The card seems good on paper, but it won't give you more keepable hands, as it only supplements your plan.

Angel's Grace doesn't work against Tendrills. They'll just put you at 0 life and you die in your own turn. Probably the best thing you can do to fight Combo is either adding Duress or Thoughtseize to the sideboard.

No one really plays Solidarity. Also, you probably have a quite positive matchup already. The deck has a hard time dealing with multiple Cabal Therapy's. This deck is a little slower than the other Ichorid, so it's probably a little closer. Expect to win about 65% I'd say.

Has River Kelpie been tested by you guys? It seems pretty strong that it can make twice as much zombies, and that it can flashback a Therapy twice.

Does this deck need Breakthrough as a discard outlet, given that you already play 4 Study, 4 Imp and 3 Tribe? Because I'd really love to run Brainstorm in this deck. It can double as a combo piece, it puts dredgers, Moeba's and whatever back on top, and it gives better search for your sideboard.

As a final question, is Null Rod better than Needle? How many decks actually split Relic and Crypt?

bum_man
05-14-2009, 04:36 AM
@Weekend Daddy:
The deck doesn't have enough space to play Street Wraiths. The draw spells it has are already the best for the deck in my opinion. Adding Street Wraiths calls for a shift in how the deck plays.

It you want to stop storm combo, you can board in CotVs for TES, i play TES too and the deck seems to struggle if it can't play 0cc mana sources post-ad nauseam. Hopefully the CotVs delay it enough for you to therapy away their hand and win before they do.

As for Solidarity, you can just therapy them away and win before they do. They aren't really that popular now like Bahamuth said. They shouldn't be taken lightly either but they aren't one of this decks worst match-ups.

The Sage is essential for the deck to win more consistently at just about the same speed as its LEDed counterparts. It compensates the dredging power lost through not running the LED-Breakthrough-DA combo. Its essentially and arguably the mvp of the deck imo.

@Bahamuth:
River Kelpie is a great card that can possibly dredge more than sage. The problem with it is you need other cards to make it work. Without a therapy or return in the graveyard it is relatively useless. I have encountered situations like those often. It may work better in the LED versions because they have DA which also trigger it. In this deck, sage is better because it runs the deck and wins on its own.

Breakthrough functions as a draw engine with only a secondary purpose of discarding. Against brainstorm its a superior draw engine because it draws more and in digging for answers just pay 1 for X and it draws one more card too. Its utility since it can discard is what makes it better than brainstorm imo.

Concerning null rod and needle, im not really sure because i haven't tested null rod yet. Some fish and red decks split relic and crypt. It also shuts down SDT, EE, chrome moxen, jittes, shackles and alot more cards than needles. Needles are faster and easier to play around daze. Just needle the crypt or relic in the board then win. Joe_C has already played with null rods he can elaborate more on this. ^^

Joe_C
05-14-2009, 06:20 AM
@ Joe C why the chosen in the board? I play it in my meta do to the high turn out of mono red burn but I don’t think I will be seeing a lot of that in a established meta. ;/
Is it vs combo and sligh, or am I missing something else?

It is for combo and aggro such as goyf sligh, and its solid against goblins as well. A 4/4 first striker is hard for them to deal with. It really is at the moment my only other "out" against combo other than null rod. I dont think that I can give the deck a "good" percentage against storm combo unless I devoted the entire sb to that match, so I pretty much try to win quick and hope they dont kill me first if I do play against storm

jimirynk
05-14-2009, 05:38 PM
After reading and non stop testing since I've changed my list again.


// Lands
2 Tarnished Citadel
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum

// Creatures
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
3 Ichorid
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 SAGE
4 Stinkweed Imp

// Spells
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
3 Breakthrough

I cut the lark for the sage and I'm still a little iffy I test vs a lot of tribal decks and aggro loam and lark has just been better for me do to the fact you need 0 bFb to race the decks..
I put the thugs up to 4 because the extra dredger makes hands got that much better, but I had to cut a breakthrough to make room..

@ Joe C are list are very similar but I refuse to go below 7 permint discard outlets(imp, tribe). I goldfished your deck about 50 times last night and hands were I had a troll, darkblast, and a study I just kept thinking wouldn't a tribe be superior? many decks just scoup to a first turn imp and tribal really hates to see a tribe.

Also I saw your post about you wanting to go to jupiter on the 30th, their is ZERO combo players there, besides 2-3 hightide type decks with white for chants.

Last time I went their was for the sapphire went undefeated to top 8 me vs teammate round one in top 8, he wins the mox. The meta is a lot of thresh, merfolk, eva green, landstill, team america, dreadstill..
what I'm getting at is a lotttt of cbtop and islands, it has the combo players scared(sry bryant cook).

You might be smiling for that fact but with 2 merfolk in top 8 and my friends list including goyf.. I would like to make my list as good vs folk as possible if I even think about playing this there.


@ everyone.
I've been playing dredge since I've started playing legacy along side with every other tier deck out there.
But now I'm jumping to the point,Everyone ready

DREDGE WINS GAME ONE

If not your either Bad at magic, the deck, horrible meta game choice, or your list is bad.

Dredge is all about games to and 3 and this is why I'm playing LEDless dredge the ability to run strong side cards like null rod push it over the top for me.

So why ever run less then 4 therapy and 4 study's? They might stop you from consistently winning turn 2 but odds are you were going to win turn 3.
Either way your to slow to race combo, if you want to win turn 2 but LEDs and DA in the deck. But therapy and study help you games 2 and 3 which are ALWAYS a uphill battle.

I'll stop ranting and let people talk.

jimirynk
05-14-2009, 06:03 PM
@jimirynk: how is reveillark been compared to sage? The dredging power that sage gives make reveillark and the creatures you return with it a lot more relevant, like say bigger GGTs. I feel that sage is slightly better against blue over the 4th breakthrough just because its another way to get the deck running especially post-board against blue. How was the non-flashback singletons for you? It seems a tad bit random to have singletons that have different sb roles. Inkwell is great as a return target, its mvp against blue if ever you get to return it, i'm actually thinking of testing one in the sb.



Reveillark is better when you plan on seeing more decks that can remove your bridges game one. Goblins cant deal with it, goyf sligh bends over to 2 gravetrolls and a fkz swinging out of nowhere after all your bridges are gone.

I already ended up cutting a breakthrough for a thug.

the singletons are a different approach for boarding with this deck.
game 2 you can see some crazy sh*t come in against you. Haveing a vast amount of answers give you a better game 3 than game 2. I do like the Inkwell in the board over archangel as of right now.
In my meta ever blue deck has goyf in it and 8 damage in a turn is average for them so Idk yet.

I already have good matchups vs gobs and goyfsligh but i took a blow taking out lark.
I'll keep everyone posted on my testing.

hwtcharger07
05-14-2009, 06:53 PM
@joe c try -1 darkblast, +1 breakthrough,

between narco, thugs, pimps, tribes, and ichorids, you have a pretty decent chance of having 3 creatures on the board to use DR for hopefully a sage.

While darkblast is cool vs gobs and elves and anything running bob, it nueters our bridges which im not trying to do game one (or 2 and 3 either) plus with 13 dredgers you still have a great chance of having at least one in the opening hand plus either breakthrough or careful study, or hell even colliseum. 14 may be a bit much not that they cant be eaten by ichorid but losing one darkblast doesn't hurt terribly bad, the only thing it does good is dredge for a measly 3 and kill our bridges.

also glad your back on board with 2 sage and 3 DR i feel this is the only way to consistantly get sage on the board.

@ weekend daddy i used to run 4 street wraith they fed ichorid and were free draw they worked well with breakthrough for 1 (also with careful study), honestly ive never been mad ive had it, but its much better as thug i feel which i had omitted when i ran street wraith, unfortunately i ran only 8 dredgers and could never get one in the yard. i think that the already good draw for careful study and breakthrough is better than wraith also so are excess dredgers.

keys
05-14-2009, 07:39 PM
Reveillark is better when you plan on seeing more decks that can remove your bridges game one. Goblins cant deal with it, goyf sligh bends over to 2 gravetrolls and a fkz swinging out of nowhere after all your bridges are gone.

If you have trouble with aggro, isn't something like Empyrial Archangel or Blazing Archon a better DR target?

Joe_C
05-14-2009, 07:46 PM
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel

3 Ichorid
4 Golgari-Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Bridge from Below
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
1 Cephalid Sage
4 Breakthrough
3 Tireless Tribe
1 Flame-Kin Zealot


SB:
4 Null Rod
1 SECRET TECH
4 Firestorm
3 Wispmare
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Ancestor's Chosen

Im going to stick with this for awhile. It can win early, but has quite a bit to offer in the slow long haul games as well. 7 permanent discard effects are incredible as we all know, I wish I could squeeze in more dredge cards without sacrificing speed, but that just isnt happening

jimirynk
05-15-2009, 02:07 AM
@ Joe C
Lol do to the fact I'm testing sage over lark our MDs are only 2 cards different.
My list is -1 breakthrough +1 thug I would like to have 4 breakthroughs but I want 12 dredgers, I feel like its the sweet spot for the deck.
I also changed my sb:

4 null rod
4 wispmare
3 pithing needle
1 ray of rev.
3 cov

I like the ability to side in the needles vs merfolk to dodge daze/spell snare.

I was wondering joe how many match ups do you side out the combo?

also what does your side vs. merfolk look like?
DO you side in firestorms?

bum_man
05-15-2009, 03:39 AM
@ everyone.
I've been playing dredge since I've started playing legacy along side with every other tier deck out there.
But now I'm jumping to the point,Everyone ready

DREDGE WINS GAME ONE

If not your either Bad at magic, the deck, horrible meta game choice, or your list is bad.

Dredge is all about games to and 3 and this is why I'm playing LEDless dredge the ability to run strong side cards like null rod push it over the top for me.

So why ever run less then 4 therapy and 4 study's? They might stop you from consistently winning turn 2 but odds are you were going to win turn 3.
Either way your to slow to race combo, if you want to win turn 2 but LEDs and DA in the deck. But therapy and study help you games 2 and 3 which are ALWAYS a uphill battle.

I'll stop ranting and let people talk.
Very well said.. :cool:

@jimirynk: I see your reasoning behind reveillark and i agree it does well against those decks. I play blasts instead of thugs in my md because i play against alot of goblins, goyf sligh, afiinity, rock etc., so i usually have minimal problems against those decks, i just blast off their creatures before doing anything then win in 1-2 turns after. There are also a lot of spot removal and bounce running around where i play so using GGTs is a very risky way of winning. I use sage primarily because it wins faster than any other alternative DR target out there. Once i get a hold of reveillarks im actually planning on running it in a split with sage. Have you tested lark against merfolk? I believe your list with lark is very strong against merfolk. Larking up big GGTs and firestorming them fishes seems like a good strategy against merfolk. ^^

jimirynk
05-15-2009, 05:45 AM
If their is a lot of tribal in your meta lark should be mvp.
Why does bounce matter?
Don't sack lark and swing with a 4/3 flier in the air with dudes blocking up the ground.
If they have to bounce your lark you get 2 gravetrolls back.

Sry with my grammer just plyed like 20 games piloting merflok vs home brewss.. it 6 and im stil up fml..

Joe_C
05-15-2009, 06:20 AM
@ Joe C
Lol do to the fact I'm testing sage over lark our MDs are only 2 cards different.
My list is -1 breakthrough +1 thug I would like to have 4 breakthroughs but I want 12 dredgers, I feel like its the sweet spot for the deck.
I also changed my sb:

4 null rod
4 wispmare
3 pithing needle
1 ray of rev.
3 cov

I like the ability to side in the needles vs merfolk to dodge daze/spell snare.

I was wondering joe how many match ups do you side out the combo?

also what does your side vs. merfolk look like?
DO you side in firestorms?

Well, my board is never a definite thing until I get to a tournament and look around a bit. But for now the definite cards in there are 4 Null ROd and 4 Firestorm. The rest are a little more focused on specific matchups so I do mixtures of cards to even out the playing field a little if I have an idea of what the competition will be like. I dont think I have ever totally sided out the combo. I like to leave flame kin in there as a possible oh shit I just won factor. against Merfolk I do put in the firestorms, and also my 1 SECRET TECH card specifically for this matchup(I will not give away what it is yet until I have played it in a tourney and it has won me a game). SB'ing against merfolk is tough, we need to bring in the rods and any aggro hate cards such as firestorm that we have, its a loss of 8 maindeck slots, which can be huge in slowing us down. The matchup will definitely take alot of serious consideration of when to dredge/draw. I havent played the matchup at all yet, but I will try to soon to get some experience under my belt with it....

jimirynk
05-15-2009, 07:16 AM
@ Joe C.
Mefolk runs x relics main/board plus propaganda in the board.:wink:

This is why I think 1-2 rays have to be board, ie prison effects plus humility.

Joe_C
05-15-2009, 07:50 AM
@ Joe C.
Mefolk runs x relics main/board plus propaganda in the board.:wink:

This is why I think 1-2 rays have to be board, ie prison effects plus humility.

True, maybe a better solution SB is:

4 Null Rod
4 Firestorm
2 Wispmare
1 Ray of Revelation
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Ancestors Chosen
1 SECRET TECH (:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: )

Always could drop to 2-3 firestorms, not sure exactly what the best # is yet