[Deck] Solidarity

[Van Phanel]

Solidarity - Former and Future Deck to Beat


Contents:

1) The deck
2) History + Decklists
3) Card Analysis
3.1) The Deck
3.2) The Sideboard
3.3) Other (possibly) playable Cards
3.4) Cards that didn't make it
4) How to play the Deck - Tips and Tricks
5) Matchup analysis
6) Sideboarding Plans
7) Opening Hand Samples
8) Credits



1) The Deck:

Solidarity plays a manabase of only Islands and Fetchlands and plans on producing huge amounts of mana with the combination of High Tide + Untap Effects in order to play lots of carddraw. When the Stormcount is high enough, the opponent's library is milled via Brain Freeze and he loses in his next drawstep or to a Stroke of Genius. What distinguishes Solidarity from just about any other deck in existence is the fact that only lands and instants are played. That means Solidarity doesn't necessarily win on its own turn (and because of the restriction of Reset it actually uses its opponent's turn more often than not).



2) History + Decklists:

All sort of useful information can be found at the old Solidarity thread, here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=617). - NC

When speaking of Solidarity, one name has to be mentioned first: David Gearhart (Deep6er on TheSource). Before Type1 and 1.5 were seperated, Gearhart was more of a Type 2 - player who occasionally played 1.5 with borrowed decks from his friends. After some time, he decided that he wanted his own deck - preferably a cheap one - and the first prototype of Solidarity was built. Back then the deck didn't play High Tide or Reset, but according to Gearhart used green for Moment's Peace, Constant Mists and Early Harvest.

Because of all the Fog-Effects, it was rather strong against aggro and thanks to storm being a busted mechanic it had a shot against control as well, but both other combo - especially Dragon (which is referring to the deck using Animate Dead + Worldgorger Dragon for an infinite combo) - and decks that attacked its manabase were basically unbeatable. Because of that, Gearhart called his deck "Strictly worse then Dragon" at that time.

When Type 1.5 and Type 1 were seperated in 2004 though, Gearhart and his testpartners realized that the deck could be a strong contender in the new meta after some bannings and High Tide and Reset (and Meditate) were added to make it monoblue. This is a list from that time:


20 Island

4 High Tide
4 Reset
4 Turnabout
4 Brainstorm
4 Words of Wisdom
4 Meditate
4 Impulse
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Flash of Insight
4 Brain Freeze
1 Chain of VaporSome time later, Gearhart witnessed one of his friends (Matt Elgin - Spatulaoftheages) playing in a draft with White Weenie. With multiple 1 - toughness creatures in play it seemed like he was about to be wrecked by a Nausea but he had prepared for it by boarding a copy of Solidarity. They had a good laugh about it and the deck got the name of Solidarity as he still didn't take it all that serious.

As time passed, the list has changed and some other new cards have been included. Cunning Wish for added flexibility, Remand in order to slow opponents down and to be able to win on a lower stormcount and Force of Will to prevent devastating early plays were added resulting in the following list that even today should be considered the starting point for everybody new to Solidarity.


Solidarity by David Gearhart
(1st at StarcityGames Duel for Duals on February 5th, 2006)


4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
12 Island

4 High Tide
4 Brainstorm
2 Opt
2 Peek
4 Reset
4 Impulse
4 Remand
2 Brain Freeze
1 Twincast
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
3 Turnabout
4 Force of Will
2 Flash of Insight

SB:
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Twincast
1 Echoing Truth
1 Evacuation
4 Hydroblast
4 DisruptBack then Solidarity was one of three decks to beat together with Goblins and Threshold. With Counterbalance and Tarmogoyf being printed, the latter began to dominate the format and as it was a rather bad matchup, Solidarity got pushed down to tier 2 status. The card of Counterbalance itself is difficult to beat when coupled with Sensei's Divining Top and being put on a fast clock of Nimble Mongeese and Tarmogoyfs doesn't help much either. Still, Solidarity beats a lot of decks consistently and should thus still be considered a solid deckchoice nowadays. The problem of Counterbalance had to be adressed though. While Gearhart took the easy way out – If you can’t beat them, join them. – in creating his own deck with Counterbalance (It's the Fear). I tried to address the problem with the following list that included Cryptic Command in order to be able to answer permanents without need for a Cunning Wish:

Solidarity by Simon Ritzka
(2nd at German Legacy Champs on August 31st, 2008)


3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
12 Island

4 High Tide
4 Brainstorm
3 Opt
1 Peek
4 Reset
4 Impulse
3 Remand
2 Brain Freeze
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
3 Turnabout
2 Cryptic Command
4 Force of Will
2 Flash of Insight

SB:
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
2 Wipe Away
3 Echoing Truth
2 Hydroblast
2 Twincast
1 Rebuild
1 Hurkyl's RecallWhen looking at both lists, note that the sideboard should always be tailored for your particular metagame, only Stroke of Genius, Meditate and Turnabout are mandatory for the wishboard and usually some bouncespells should be included as well.



3) Card analysis:

3.1) The deck:

12 Island:
Islands are necessary for High Tide to work. Basic lands are unaffected by Wasteland, Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon and Back to Basics, which is why Solidarity can ignore most of the nonbasic hate in our modern meta. In a list with splash, one or two Island are replaced by the blue dual of the splashed color.

3 Flooded Strand, 3 Polluted Delta:
As Solidarity regularly sees more than half its deck, the thinning is actually useful here. In addition to that, fetchlands combine with Brainstorm to shuffle useless cards away. Up to 8 fetchlands could be played, this would increase the probability of being hurt by the lifeloss or Stifle though.

4 High Tide, 4 Reset:
The key parts of the decks manaengine. They make a kill on turn 3 realistic (turn 2 can theoretically happen with three High Tides and multiple untaps). The play-restriction of Reset is the reason why Solidarity more often than not tries to combo out on its opponent's turn.

3 Turnabout:
Another untap-effect with a higher cost that offers more flexibility. Can be use to tap lands or creatures an opponent controls and can also be used on your own turn.

4 Brainstorm:
The single best Cantrip in the history of the game. Digs three cards deep and with Fetchlands, Impulse, Flash of Insight or in some cases even Brain Freeze it is possible to get rid of the two cards put back.

4 Opt/Peek:
For an 18-land base to work, additional 1-CC cantrips are needed and Opt is better at digging, while Peek can provide crucial information. I run 3/1 because I never want to draw a second Peek, but 2/2 or 4/0 is fine as well.

4 Impulse:
The best card to ensure the third landdrop. Also digs 4 cards deep before and during the combo.

3 Remand:
Can slow down your opponent while drawing a card, protect your own spells from counters or cut the stormcount you need for Brain Freeze to be lethal in half. I play only 3 because they aren't very good against Threshold, because their Spells are cheap and they have Daze, running 4 is fine though.

3 Meditate:
Cheap blue carddraw. The skipped turn can be ignored when going for the combo, but it can also be used as a setup card especially after using Force of Will or when playing against discard.

3 Cunning Wish:
The flexible allround-spell. Can get any card from your sideboard, cards pitched to Force of Will and cards removed with Flash of Insight.

2 Flash of Insight:
Another way to provide actual cardadvantage. The bottom cards are stacked in the order you want, so they can be remembered for later use. Can also be used to turn Brain Freeze into a cantrip, that is risky though as you might mill all your winconditions.

2 Brain Freeze:
The card that actually wins. Usable as a cantrip in desperate situations.

2 Cryptic Command:
The swiss army knife among blue instants. Can deal with a spell, a permanent (read: Counterbalance or Chalice of the Void) or be a Fog while providing no card disadvantage as more often than not "Draw a card." will be one of the chosen modes. The three other combinations are also useful every now and then. By no means mandatory, but very useful nevertheless.


3.2) Sideboard:

1 Stroke of Genius:
Can kill the opponent if it isn't possible to wait for his next drawstep. Can also be wished for with lots of available mana which is why it is better than other choices for carddraw for the opponent.

1 Meditate:
Wishable carddraw.

1 Turnabout:
Wishable untap-effect.


3.3) Other (possibly) playable cards

a) Mainboard:

Twincast:
Twincast is a flexible spell, that is especially effective against counters and combo playing Orim's Chant. It does nothing without something to copy though, so one or maybe two could be played.

Think Twice:
Produces actual cardadvantage and is more or less uncounterable (at least with conventional counters). Unfortunately rather clunky (+1 card for five mana).

Spell Snare:
Answers Counterbalance and a lot of other annoying cards (Chalice/1, Meddling Mage, Dark Confidant, Hymn to Tourach, ...) before they resolve. Does nothing midcombo or if you draw it after the problemcard has resolved.

b) Sideboard:

Brain Freeze:
Makes the kill-card accessible via Cunning Wish. It is also possible to go up to four after sideboarding against blue decks, start counterwars and try to kill with multiple small Brain Freezes.

Wipe Away:
Thanks to Split Second the best blue (instant) solution to a resolved Counterbalance. Useful against any deck with annoying permanents and counters.

Echoing Truth:
The best solution to Empty the Warrens. Can also be boarded against annoying permanents like Chalice of the Void and can bounce multiple Zombie tokens from Bridge from Below.

Hydroblast:
Useful against Goblins, Burn, Goyf Sligh, basically any fast red aggro because they can sometimes be too fast. Better than Blue Elemental Blast because a red target isn't required, and thus it can be cast just to up the storm count.

Twincast:
Good against counters and decks that try to protect their combo with Orim's Chant.

Rebuild:
Solution for multiple artifacts. Better than Hurkyl's Recall because it isn't stopped by a Chalice of the Void with two counters.

Disrupt:
Useful against discard and sometimes combo.

Peer through Depths/ Three Wishes:
Can replace Meditate in the sideboard if four are played main.

Mystical Tutor:
Makes High Tide wishable. Unfortunately produces carddisadvantage and shows the tutored card to the opponent.

Krosan Grip:
Would require a green splash but is a permanent solution to Counterbalance.


3.4) Cards that didn't make it:

Thirst for Knowledge:
The effect is too weak for three mana. Either more digging or actual cardadvantage would be needed to make it good.

Fact or Fiction:
You'd have to reveal three useful cards for Fact or Fiction to be better than Impulse midcombo. Also shows the cards to your opponent and is bad at digging for initial landdrops.

Peer through Depths:
Worse than Impulse as it can't find land and reveals the taken card. Could see play in addition to Impulse

Venser, Shaper Savant:
Cryptic Command is better as the 2/2 body will never be relevant

Oona's Grace:
Doesn't do enough precombo and even midcombo it is only very rarely more useful than another Cantrip.



4) How to play the deck - Tips and Tricks:

The gameplan of Solidarity consists of two steps:

a) Setup:

At the beginning of the game you try to hit at least four landdrops (three can be sufficient) and to build a hand consisting of (at least) one High Tide, some carddraw, some untap effects and a way to play around counters if your opponent plays any. The options here are: Force of Will, Twincast or multiple copys of the spell you expect your opponent to counter.
Too fast starts of your opponent (Goblin Lackey, Tendrils of Agony) and spells that attack your resources (Hypnotic Specter, Devastating Dreams) have to be stopped and you also try to deal with any permanents that could disrupt the combo (Counterbalance, Chalice of the Void). The difference between Solidarity and any other deck is that the setup-phase doesn't end when you could potentially win, but only when your opponent forces you to act (be it with lethal damage, a Counterbalance or discard).

b) The Combo:

When going for the combo, ususally a High Tide is played first and then the stormcount is increased with untap-effects, carddraw and possibly more High Tides. When the stormcount is high enough the opponent is Brain Freezed and if necessary, killed with Stroke of Genius.

This gets more specific depending on the play situation.

How to play around counters?

As Solidarity isn't fast enough to win before an opponent can counter, the plan is to wait long for a good hand and a lot of lands in play (6 is a good number, the more the better). Either try to play right through their counters or get a counterwar started and end it with Brain Freeze for lethal.

Important for the preparation of your combo is that you can estimate how many counters your opponent actually has and plan accordingly. As Solidarity is better equipped to win stack wars than any other deck, the opponent can't really let High Tide resolve more often than not as the additional mana will help you more than him. When he counters your mana though, you can just set up for a new try with your remaining hand. Remanding your own spells can work wonders here. If you plan on doing this, don't wait until the very last turn.

How to play against Counterbalance?

Coupled with Sensei's Divining Top, Counterbalance can be enough to defeat Solidarity. Thus it should usually be Force of Willed when possible. Once a Counterbalance hits play, it can be bounced via Wipe Away or Cryptic Command. If that doesn't work either, the only thing left is brute force - playing through Counterbalance.

Without Top in play, you just run a testspell and wait for your opponent to reveal the top card. Once you know it, you just combo without using spells with that converted manacost. With a Sensei's Divining Top, this gets a lot harder. Then, the only way to win is usually to hope that they either don't have something for two, and combo out without High Tide, or, to hope that they don't have something for one. Then you start with a High Tide and he will probably respond by putting his Top on top. You can respond to this with another High Tide, then let the ability of Top resolve and then combo out without fear of the Counterbalance.

How to play around Gaea's Blessing?

Even nowadays, many people believe they have an autowin against Solidarity if they sideboard Gaea's Blessing. They are wrong, as Gaea's Blessing triggers when it is milled and you can respond with another Brain Freeze (possibly by using Remand on the first one) and a lethal Stroke of Genius. In fact, Gaea's Blessing is not very good against Solidarity, as you can play around it late in the combo when your hand is filled with good cards, as opposed to cards like Chalice of the Void or Meddling Mage which try to stop the combo before it begins.

When should I go for the combo?

a) In your opponent's drawstep: This is the earliest time Reset can be played. Is used when another landdrop could help your opponent to play more disruption (Example: A Goblin player that could play a Rishadan Port).
Side note: Mana gained in the Upkeep can be used in the draw step. It might often be a good idea to try to resolve a Tide and a Meditate in the upkeep, since it might cut your opponent off the counter they were about to draw in their draw step. You can then continue to combo without Reset or just go to the draw step if you need to use Reset.

b) In your opponent's begin of combat step: The last time you can tap your opponent's creatures. Is used when your opponent has lethal damage onboard or could bring you into burn range.

c) The opponent's end of turn step: The last time in your opponent's turn when you can play something. Is used if you want your opponent to raise the stormcount beforehand. Also they likely can't do anything after they are milled.

d) At any other time: There can be a reason to go off at any point of the game.


c) General Advice and Tricks:

The single most important thing to know when playing Solidarity is that you don't need to act, but you react. Your opponent will make their plays and you can then make yours depending on what is necessary in your current situation. It is not like our plan is "find 4 lands, High Tide, Reset, Meditate and combo out on turn four." in any given game like in other decks. In being able to adjust your own plays to just about any imaginable situation, Solidarity offers the ultimate flexibility to the player. This flexibility has its price in making the deck very complicated to play because every single turn poses quite a number of questions to the player and while there are sometimes multiple correct answers, a single wrong answer will usually mean a lost game. This should always be kept in mind when playing the deck.


Brainstorm:

The second best card in the deck - if that can be said at all - also offers the greatest possibilities for mistakes. Brainstorm should always be played as late as possible. Example: if you are searching for land, don't play the Brainstorm at end of turn but rather wait until your own turn so you get to see one more card. Of course there are exceptions to that rule like having to find a Force of Will in response to a Lackey or something similarly threatening.

Rule of thumb: Having no reason against playing Brainstorm is not enough. You need an actual reason for playing Brainstorm.


Remand:

Possible uses of Remand:
- Remanding a spell to slow your opponent down or even Time Walk them
- Remanding your own spell in response to a counter
- Remanding your own spell to draw a card (emergency cantrip)
- Remanding your Brain Freeze to get double use out of storm.
- Remanding your opponent's counter (rare, usually Remanding your own spell is better)


Brain Freeze:

The main purpose of Brain Freeze is the use as winoption to mill your opponent. But if you have no carddraw in hand, Brain Freeze can be played on yourself in order to mill Flash of Insight, flashback that and stack your library (Flash of Insight allows you to choose the order of the cards on bottom). A rare tertiary use is milling few cards in the early turns of the game either to get rid of two bad cards from a Brainstorm or of a card which your opponent got with a topdeck Tutor (http://magiccards.info/query/cards/5501016.html).

[Van Phanel]

5) Matchup analysis:

As I am not a fan of percentages (because 87,935% of them are made up, outright lied or come from insufficient testing), I won't include any.

a) Threshold with Counterbalance:

The most important thing is to make sure that Counterbalance is not in play when you're going for the combo. This can be achieved with Force of Will, Cunning Wish for Wipe Away or (if you play it) Cryptic Command. Nimble Mongoose and Tarmogoyf are usually not worth spending a Force of Will. That aside, just prepare your combo as usual and go for the win before you are killed.

The good thing about this matchup is that Threshold with Counterbalance rarely plays other counters than Force of Will (and Daze of course), so winning without Counterbalance in play is not that hard. Just make sure that Daze is not too much of a problem, especially Cunning Wish and Cryptic Command shouldn't be run into Daze unless there is no other possibility. Their high permanent count can make it hard for them to get threshold, so Nimble Mongoose is often rather slow and Tarmogoyf will only be 2/3 (3/4 if they hit Ponder) more often than not so their clock is not very fast.

To sum it up, this matchup is winnable, but a good mix of pressure, Force of Will, Counterblance and Sensei's Divining Top can be a problem which means Threshold is usually slightly favored.

After sideboarding, Wipe Away can help against Counterbalance (one should be left in the sideboard as they are only rarely going to be able to counter Cunning Wish with Counterbalance).


b) Threshold without Counterbalance:

Those lists usually play Stifle or Spell Snare, often both. That means you have to be careful with fetchlands as an early Stifle can outright win the game for them. Also Remand, Impulse and especially Reset are not as reliable as usual because of Spell Snare. In addition to that their clock is faster thanks to their lower permanent count.

That means you have to go off earlier when compared to Threshold with Counterbalance, but they don't have that very card so the matchup is actually around even depending on build (Red Thrash is slightly positive while black versions are worse because of Thoughtseize)

After game 1 I generally want to board in Twincasts as they help in getting your keyspells past their counters. Remand is usually the first card to come out.

Be it against red Threshold with or without Counterbalance, always expect burn and try to go off before you get lower than 7-8 life if possible. Also if they have Red Elemental Blasts, it could make sense to board a single Hydroblast (only against non-balanced versions), this depends on your gut-feeling and the number of Twincasts you play though.


c) Goblins:

The games are usually simply a race with the only interactive cards being Force of Will, Remand and Rishadan Port. A first turn Goblin Lackey is a must counter everything else depends on the situation. As Solidarity has more cards to slow them down and the ability to wait until Goblins actually have a kill, the matchup is in favor of Solidarity.

Postboard not much changes depending on the Goblin-players sideboard. Nowadays Earwig Squad, discard, Chalice of the Void and sometimes Red Elemental Blasts have to be expected.

For games 2 and 3, a mix of Hydroblasts and bounce comes in with Hydroblast being better against Lackey while bounce can be necessary if they have Chalice of the Void.


d) Landstill:

The control-deck in Legacy is a very good matchup as you have a lot of time to get a close to perfect hand. Preboard they just can't win because of all their dead cards. Postboard it gets a lot harder if they have Meddling Mage, but it's still better for Solidarity.

The two important things postboard are to maximize your card advantage and to be ready to deal with Meddling Mage. That means that 2-3 bouncespells should come in and Twincast is very helpful as well.


e) Loam:

The goldfish of Aggro-Loam is around turn 4-5 which is slightly slower than the one of Solidarity. Devastating Dreams and Chalice of the Void can hurt though. The key in this matchup are Remand and Cryptic Command. Both can slow them down by a lot. The matchup against Aggro-Loam is favorable and any other kind of Loam is more or less a bye, because their clock is extremely slow.

If they play Chalice of the Void, board in some bounce, if they don’t, Hydroblast is better because it can deal with Devastating Dreams as well.


f) Survival of the Fittest:

Against most versions of Survival, the most important thing is to not get hurt by their discard too much. As their clock is generally very slow, you have a lot of time to recover which makes the matchup rather easy.


g) Dragon Stompy:

This is a matchup that is a lot better than it looks in theory. Chalice of the Void + fast beats can be problematic but they don’t always get both and even if they do, a single counter can wreck them. In addition to that their Moon-effects are not very useful after turn 1. There even is Rebuild in the sideboard as an answer to Chalices and possible Trinispheres and that makes the matchup pretty good.


h) Dredge::

Now we get to the bad matchups. Dredge is faster than Solidarity and not very disruptable by Force and Remand. If there is a large number of Dredge players in your meta either don’t play Solidarity or add Tormod’s Crypt/Leyline of the Void/ Relic of Progenitus to your sideboard. Disrupt might help, too (but that is untested so far).


i) Dreadstill:

Another problematic matchup. Dreadstill combines everything Solidarity doesn’t want to see. Phyrexian Dreadnought provides an extremely fast clock while Counterbalance and Force of Will disrupt the combo. Cryptic Command has to work overtime here as it is the best solution to both Dreadnought and Counterbalance, but even an average draw of Dreadstill will cause a lot of problems.

k) TES:

Some time ago, the plan against other combodecks was to use their stormcount to help your own combo. Unfortunately other combodecks have become a lot faster lately so that isn't always possible anymore. TES regularly kills on turn two and a single Force of Will isn't usually enough to stop them. In addition to that turn1 Empty the Warrens is hard to deal with. As many lists don't play Empty in the maindeck anymore, they are only slightly favored in game 1 with Solidarity being slightly favored after sideboarding.

l) Belcher:

Belcher is even faster than TES. A single Force can sometimes be enough here but without it you lose game 1 most of the time. This makes the matchup better for them because you can't always have the Force and against some hands it doesn't even do anything. After sideboarding, Empty the Warrens is not that dangerous anymore because you board Echoing Truth but they usually have some disruption like Pyroblasts or Xantid Swarm which can be a real problem. You can only hope to have the fitting solution for their combo. FoW doesn't do anything against Empty but deals with Belcher while Truth deals with Empty and doesn't help against Belcher. As soon as you stop one combo-attempt, you will likely win but that isn't as easy as it sounds.


6) Sideboarding Plans


Possible Sideboard:

1 Stroke of Genius
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
3 Wipe Away
3 Echoing Truth
2 Hydroblast
3 Twincast
1 Rebuild

With this sideboard, the following sideboardplans are possible:

a) Balanced Threshold:

- 2 Remand, + 2 Wipe Away

b) Non-balanced Threshold:

- 2 Remand, + 2 Twincast

c) Goblins:

- 1 Peek, - 1 Impulse, - 1 Cryptic Command, + 2 Hydroblast, + 1 Echoing Truth

d) Landstill:

- 1 High Tide, - 1 Force of Will, - 1 Reset, - 1 Impulse, + 1 Wipe Away, + 1 Echoing Truth, + 2 Twincast

e) Loam:

- 1 Peek, - 1 Impulse, + 2 Echoing Truth

f) Survival:

- 1 High Tide, + 1 Twincast

g) Dragon Stompy

- 1 Peek, - 1 Impulse, + 2 Echoing Truth

h) Dredge:

Dredge: - 2 Cryptic Command, - 2 Cunning Wish, + 3 Echoing Truth, + 1 Turnabout

i) Dreadstill:

- 2 Remand, + 2 Wipe Away

Note that while possible, these sideboardplans are by no means fixed. They can always be varied depending on your knowledge of your playstyle, your opponents deck and other reasons.

k) TES:

- 2 Cryptic Command, - 2 Cunning Wish, - 1 Turnabout, - 1 High Tide, - 1 Impulse, + 2 Echoing Truth (depends if they play ETW or not), + 3 Twincast, + 2 Hydroblast

l) Belcher:

- 2 Cryptic Command, - 2 Cunning Wish, - 1 Turnabout, + 3 Echoing Truth, + 2 Hydroblast


7) Opening Hand Samples:

I assumed an unknown opponent for the following sample hands. If play/ draw matters for the decision, I'll specifically mention both.


1) Island, Cryptic Command, Island, High Tide, Island, Brain Freeze, Opt

Keep. The hand is not great, but it has enough land and a High Tide and with the Opt you should be able to draw into something. After all the deck doesn't really consist of anything but cantrips.


2) Reset, Brain Freeze, Reset, Island, Cryptic Command, Flooded Strand, Island

Mulligan. This hand doesn't do anything until turn 4.


3) Force of Will, Remand, Impulse, Polluted Delta, Flooded Strand, Peek, Flooded Strand

Keep. The hand doesn't have comboparts, but with FoW + Peek + Remand you should be able to draw into either Tide or an untap by turn 3 and then search for the missing part with Impulse.


4) Brainstorm, Force of Will, High Tide, Reset, Flooded Strand, Force of Will, Impulse

It depends. You have four cards on the play and five cards on the draw to find a second land. If you do, this hand is very likely to win. I would always keep this on the draw and go by gut-feeling on the play. The important part is the Impulse that should allow finding the third land right after you found the second. Without it, the hand is a clear mulligan.


5) Island, Polluted Delta, Brainstorm, Peek, Cunning Wish, Island, Force of Will.

A clear keep. Again no part of the combo, but Brainstorm + Fetchland + Wish should fix that.


6) Island, High Tide, Brainstorm, Cunning Wish, Reset, Polluted Delta, Remand

An easy one. Keep, no questions asked.


7) Opt, Impulse, Opt, Impulse, Flooded Strand, Island, Force of Will

Keep. Four cantrips will find the combo and the FoW can buy the time to do so.


8) Island, Island, Island, Brainstorm, Impulse, Flash of Insight, Impulse

Keep. With this hand it is important to not play the Brainstorm on turn one unless you know that you'll need to find the combo fast.


9) Island, Island, Flooded Strand, High Tide, Turnabout, Reset, High Tide

Keep. In three turns it should be possible to draw something with "draw a card" written in its textbox.


10) High Tide, Reset, Turnabout, Polluted Delta, Remand, Reset, Island

A risky hand. In three turns you have to find land and if you don't, you're likely dead. But this gamble makes winning still more likely than mulliganing to six.


8) Credits:

- to Deep6er for creating the deck and proofreading the primer
- to Lukas Preuss for giving some ideas in his old German Primer
- to Finn for this interview (http://mtgsalvation.com/584-what-next-gearhart.html) with Deep6er which reveals a lot about the deck's history
- last but not least to everybody who takes part in the discussions on the deck



- Van




PS:
Anybody who finds any mistakes in the content, just post in the thread for discussion.

If there is a mistake in the language (which is likely as English isn't my first language), just send me a PM and I'll take care of it.


PPS: To-Do List
1) add comments on the sideboarding plans
2) Your ideas
3) Make enough Top8s, so that Solidarity becomes a deck to beat again (I need your help here)
4) Add more Tips and Tricks (suggested by Taurelin)

[socialite]

This is very well written and extremely useful. I have been poking DGH for a while now on up to date information regarding Solidarity. Much thanks.

[Fons]

Nice Job it was very informative and helpful.

[Julian23]

your German primer made me play it and especially those Cryptic Command really seem to pay off. Thanks :-)

[Taurelin]

First of all, thanks for all the effort and time. It was worth it, well done! :smile:



I would love to see some more of the ideas that we gathered in the primer-forum, particularly those neat tricks that are useful and show the immense flexibility of the deck. Like these:


- The most important rule is that you can combo off and win at instant speed whenever you need to. This means that you can take your time, prepare for the right moment, and can even win in response to a serious threat (Armageddon) or even with deadly damage on the stack. The last case means, however, that you need to make your opponent draw a card after milling his library. That's why there is a Stroke of Genius in the sideboard.

- The combination of Brain Freeze + Remand helps to reduce the number of spells required for a lethal stormcount. You play Brain Freeze, then cast Remand countering the original spell. The copies remain on the stack, you draw an extra card, and you can continue in your combo or recast Brain Freeze.
Examples:
16 Spells + Brain Freeze = 17*3 = 51 cards
7 Spells + Brain Freeze + Remand + Brain Freeze = 7*3 + 10*3 = 51 cards

- If your opponent counters one of your spells, you can play Remand on your own spell. The result is that your opponent's spell will fizzle, you draw an extra card, you can play your spell again, and you have already achieved a solid stormcount. This is also a way to bait counters early in the game.

- Another way to bait counters is pretending to be short of mana. If you have one Island in play and cast Brainstorm during your own turn - alternatively 2 lands and Impulse, your opponent might feel motivated to counter your "harmless" spell, hoping to keep you manascrewed. You just smile, play your next land, and say "Go".

- You can divide the targets of Brain Freeze and its copies, for example to mill 3 cards of your own library after putting two useless lands on top with Brainstorm. In case of emergency, if you are in desperate need of carddraw, you can freeze yourself completely until you find a Flash of Insight in your graveyard. Then you interrupt the stack and continue via Flashback.

- If you cast Flash of Insight via Flashback, you can also stack the cards on bottom of your library in any order you wish. Then you can mill the cards on top and find exactly wht you need. You can also get back the removed cards using Cunning Wish.

- If you combo off in response to an opponent's draw-spell, he will kill himself at the end of the stack.

- If you realize that you will fizzle or simply need more time, you can use Turnabout to tap your opponent's creatures and buy a turn. Turnabout can also be cast proactively to tap your opponent's lands, thus preventing counters.

- Gaea's Blessing is hardly played anymore, but it was considered the ultimate weapon against Solidarity. Wrong. The correct procedure is to respond to the trigger once Blessing hits the grave and continue comboing, milling the rest of the library as well, and finally casting Stroke of Genius. This way the opponent loses with his Blessing-trigger still on the stack.

- Twincast - although not appearing in all modern lists - functions as a neat Joker. You can counter their counterspells, double your resources if you need to, or go infinite vs. Ill-Gotten Gains.

Some additional general strategic advice from my part:

- If you are mid-combo and have Meditate and Impulse available, you should usually go for Meditate first, then cast Impulse. In this order you can better decide what you need to continue.

- In desperate situations (happened to me quite often) you can use Remand as an emergency cantrip. Counter a random spell of yours (Tide, Reset...) and maybe draw the solution you were looking for.

- Like it is true for Brainstorm, you should also never fetch unless you have too. If you wait, there might be a better use for the shuffling effect. And sometimes 1 or 2 life can just make the difference.

- Cunning Wish not only allows you to pick cards from your wishboard, but also cards removed from the game via Flash of Insight (mentioned above), Extirpate (mentioned by vanphanel) and even pitched to Force of Will.

- Brain Freeze can be a surprising solution pre-combo to any kind of tutor played by an opponent or the occasional Predict.

[Julian23]

When using Brain Freeze on myself I often find myself puzzled as to how much to freeze myself for. Half the library? Watching you play it seems the decision is much more complicated and depends on which card you wanna use Flash of Insight for; in my case usually Reset or Cunning Wish.

[Taurelin]

When using Brain Freeze on myself I often find myself puzzled as to how much to freeze myself for. Half the library?

There are actually two purposes to freeze yourself:
a) Getting rid of cards on top of your library (e.g. additional lands that you put there with brainstorm)
b) Getting Flash of Insight in the graveyard

For a, freezing yourself once is sufficient, of course.

For b, the more you freeze, the bigger is your chance to find Flash. Note that you needn't let all the copies resolve. Once Flash hits the yard, you can leave the additional copies on the stack, cast Flash in response, and then continue with your combo. Also note that the copies are on top of Brain Freeze itself, so you can always get the original back with Remand and cast in on your opponent later.

That's Solidarity!

[jazzykat]

@authors: This is how to write a primer!

@Van: Thank you, because this is comprehensive, backed up by results, and clearly written.

[Nihil Credo]

One thing I noticed:


Without Top in play, you just run a testspell and wait for your opponent to reveal the top card. Once you know it, you just combo without using spells with that converted manacost. With a Sensei's Divining Top, this gets a lot harder. Then, the only way to win is usually to hope that they either don't have something for two, and combo out without High Tide, or, to hope that they don't have something for one. Then you start with a High Tide and he will probably respond by putting his Top on top. You can respond to this with another High Tide and then combo out without fear of the Counterbalance.
I think you forgot a ", let the Top ability resolve," after "another High Tide".

[Julian23]

For b, the more you freeze, the bigger is your chance to find Flash. Note that you needn't let all the copies resolve. Once Flash hits the yard, you can leave the additional copies on the stack, cast Flash in response, and then continue with your combo. Also note that the copies are on top of Brain Freeze itself, so you can always get the original back with Remand and cast in on your opponent later.

That's Solidarity!

Thanks Taurelin, that's exactly what I'm doing right now anyway. Yet things get a bit more complicated once you wanna or even have to spread the copies on you and your opponent because of an otherwise too low storm count. So I guess the "secret forumla" I was hoping for is "just" to calculate.

[Bahamuth]

Awesome job Van Phanel! I'm glad it's finally here. Your matchup analysis is pretty accurate as far as I'm concerned. I'm really missing the combo matchup though. Maybe Stax could be in there too. I also think you're being slightly too negetive on the dredge matchup. I've been able to win quite some games by boarding in Truth.

For fast combo, you can usually manage with the Twincast in your sideboard. Something like:
-2 Cryptic Command
-1 Flash of Insight
+3 Twincast

should be fine. Twincast is really strong against both Chant and Duress. I found the matchup to be even to slightly negative, depending on the version (the slower, the better for you usually). I'm not sure on ANT though since, I haven't tested it.

Since it's still the first page, I'll follow Taurelin and post some info from the Message Boards.

VS. Thresh:
Threshold's plan is to couple a strong clock with strong countermagic. To archieve this, the deck uses cantrips. The one and only way for Solidarity is to combat one of these 2 factors. Either fight the clock (with spells like Spell Snare) or fight the counters (with spells like Twincast).

ENEMY'S
1. Dark Confidant
This card is completely rediculous. If this card resolves and is on the table for longer that 1 or 2 turns, the chances of winning are very very slim. The card produces sick cardadvantage, powering up both their counters and their clock. Aside from that, it's ALSO a clock itself. Completely nuts.

2. Counterbalance
The obvious one. This card will not only be able to prevent you from comboing, but will also counter cantrips randomly, producing cardadvantage for the Thresh player. This card, unlike Confidant, since that one can be raced with moderate succes, has to be dealt with once it hits the table, barring a few exceptions. Wipe Away in the sideboard has the sole purpose of getting rid of this card. Once it's active with a top next to it, your only hope is to find a Wipe Away, which is virtually impossible thanks to the fact that it counters everything you play to find one.

3. Meddling Mage
I'm not going to say much about this card, since no one plays it anymore. Yet, this is basically the same story as Confidant. It couples a clock with cardadvantage on their side. Counter if possible.

4. Goyf
Also not much to say here. This guy provides the main clock for their deck. Good enough to use Spell Snare on, not always good enough to use FoW on.

5. Grunt
This card provides the Thresh player with both a strong clock, which luckily comes online quite late in the game, and with a solid defence mechanism against the combo. The Solidarity player has to deal with it, one way or another and can't win anymore by tapping the opponents creatures once it hits.

These are just the creatue-enemy's. Aside from the obvious counters, cards like Toughtseize and Extirpate can definately pose problems.


The board plan obviously varies depending on your and your opponent's build, but I can give some directions.

One strong plan is to board out Remands, since they don't do much in this matchup because of the low mana-curve of Thresh. This enables Solidarity to play several smaller combo's finishing with small Brain Freeze.


Question for Van Phanel: Why don't you board in Twincast in the Thresh matchup?





On the Landstill matchup: Solidairty is known for having a good control matchup. Yet I find this matchup to be pretty hard to play. Here are some tips, written by Tacosnape a while ago:

You want to have a lot of land on the board. Six is a good number. It can be done with five, and seven is even better. Secondly, you want the board clear of Meddling Mage.

Ideally, you want a hand consisting of a Tide, a Reset or two, two to three draw spells, and two to three of Remand/Twincast/Force of Will (Or in my case today, Determined).

From there on, I usually drop a Tide. If they counter the Tide and you aren't going to die next turn, I usually attempt to Remand the Tide back to my hand and wait until next turn, as I've now drawn out a counter, saved my Tide, and drawn a card. If they counter the Tide and I -am- going to die next turn, Then obviously I'll either Twincast, Force the counter, or Remand the tide, depending on how many counters I suspect they're holding.

If they don't counter the tide, you have a lot more mana to play with. Make sure to do your Resets early, floating mana, with enough mana open to counter at least twice. You don't always have to counter, either. If your Tide resolves with six lands, and your next spell is Reset with eight floating and they counter it, You can then just cast another Reset or Turnabout and let the Reset die.

A lot of playing here is working out in your head scenarios of "What do I do if they counter ____" and playing them in such an order where you cause your opponent to have to guess at your resources. This is the beauty of Solidarity and one reason why cards like Peer Through Depths and Mystical Tutor never made the cut. Your opponent, if playing Blue, likely has no idea what's in your hand (Excluding decks packing Mage and Duress). As such, they have to guess at your plan and what resources you have to work with.

Try it out. Set up a situation where your opponent has anywhere from 1-4 counters (You don't know how many) and you have a full loaded hand with six mana, but not always the exact same hand (And your opponent doesn't know your hand). Have one person try to go off while the other tries to stop them. Your brain will hurt at first, but after about eight or nine times you'll begin to get the feel of it and countermagic won't be as terrifying anymore.



The win percentages are probably, depending on the version, 70/30 to 75/25.

[Van Phanel]

- noted mistakes fixed (thanks, Taurelin and Nihil)
- to-do-list and credits added

@Julian:
Usually you finish the combo in the same turn. If you do so, play the full Brain Freeze on yourself (obviously there's no need to mill more cards than you have in your library). You will be able to raise the stormcount later with help of Flash and the card you took in it.

Only in rare corner-case scenarios (if you are very low on mana and don't have the second Flash left in the deck) you have to be careful. The best way there would be to actually know the probabilities, but usually estimating works. There is no shortcut to the actual probabilities.


Edit: @Bahamuth: W00t I just forgot combo? Will be added no later than Monday.

Twincast doesn't actually do all that much against Balanced Threshold. They usually only have 4 Force of Will and a Twincast neither helps to start the combo (you need Tide, untap and draw anyway) nor does it help against Counterbalance - unless you have FoW, they have FoW and they don't have Daze/ it's later than turn 2). I do actually board 1 or 2 Twincast if they play more than four counters (Red Elemental Blast after boarding maybe) and I always board them against noon-balanced versions because they tend to have more actual counters.

[Fons]

Wow, best primer ever. I really hope to see solidarity reach a deck to beat again.

[Zinch]

Wow, best primer ever. I really hope to see solidarity reach a deck to beat again.

QFT. A realy good primer Van Phanel.
The only downside I see in this primer is that now this is not the largest threat in all The Source... :tongue:

[Van Phanel]

The only downside I see in this primer is that now this is not the largest threat in all The Source... :tongue:

Lets fix that.

[Jade]

Great Primer Van Phanel! I think you showed well what the deck is capable of (and how/why it is capable of this), without hyping it too much.
I'm waiting for your sideboarding comments. I need some explanation there, as I don't get some decisions (cutting a FoW against landstill, cutting Impulse over cunning wish against goblins).

Again, great work!

[Julian23]

QFT. A realy good primer Van Phanel.
The only downside I see in this primer is that now this is not the largest threat in all The Source... :tongue:

which is now - believe it or not - Dragon Stompy...
/edit: I still consider Solidarity a major threaT :D

I guess the reason for cutting FoW against Landstill is the fact that (at least in my experience) it isn't that relevant. Landstil usually puts you on a very slow clock allowing for a lot of setup precombo. When eventually going for it I'd rather have an additional Reset, High Tide or even Meditate as sufficient mana shouldn't be an issue. Well at least that's my reasoning ;-) I'm still rather new to the deck.

[Taurelin]

Noticed some more smaller things:

1)

Some time later, Gearheart


2)

I also decided to not include any specific sideboarding plans

6) Sideboarding Plans

Doesn't really match. :wink:

[Deep6er]

Actually, no, my name is spelled "Gearhart". Counter-intuitive, I know. It's not like I chose it.

[Taurelin]

Actually, no, my name is spelled "Gearhart". Counter-intuitive, I know. It's not like I chose it.

Actually, yes. I quoted the false spelling. All other instances of your name are spelled correctly, as far as I can see. :wink:

[Deep6er]

Huh, well I'll be.

Fair enough. I missed that on my read through. Hats off to you sir!

LOLZ. The best thing is that I always look for my name in things that I read. Way to drop the ball, me.

In that case, I owe you a high five. Unfortunately, you're like way out in not-America, aren't you. Seems like this is going to be difficult.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

@ Van Phanel: The primer looks excellent (i haven't read it all as i'm at work but i'll be printing it and read it during coffee break!). Thanks for putting it together.

I have a question for Solidarity players with good tournament experience. I'm still considering going to GP: Chicago (flight prices are fluctuating quite a lot but i'm hoping to get a decent deal) and if i do, i'd be playing Solidarity. I explored several alternatives but i'm just more comfortable with Solidarity and have much more experience with it than any others. However, the question is, is Solidarity a solid choice for a GP, having no byes? The first few rounds will just be about navigating through all sorts of randomness!

[solidarity!]

Good job van phanel

I'ts really a nice primer =)

[cjva]

thanks for an wonderful primer.

[Zinch]

@ Van Phanel: The primer looks excellent (i haven't read it all as i'm at work but i'll be printing it and read it during coffee break!). Thanks for putting it together.

I have a question for Solidarity players with good tournament experience. I'm still considering going to GP: Chicago (flight prices are fluctuating quite a lot but i'm hoping to get a decent deal) and if i do, i'd be playing Solidarity. I explored several alternatives but i'm just more comfortable with Solidarity and have much more experience with it than any others. However, the question is, is Solidarity a solid choice for a GP, having no byes? The first few rounds will just be about navigating through all sorts of randomness!

I think that in a sea ofrandomness Solidarity is a good ship. It is a combo deck, so it wins all sort of random aggro (WW, death and taxes...). It also wins to the random control decks (The rock and standstill for example). And even could beneficiate from a noob aggro control opponent. If you expect a lot of random, solidarity is a good option.
But if the GP is full of aggro control (knowing how much americans love threshold), then maybe is a mistake. Personaly if I were to the GP I would play this deck (not saying is the best option, it's a personal preference)

[jazzykat]

A dumb question: if you are going for the drawstep kill can you combo out before they draw a card, or is drawing a card the first thing that happens in the draw step?

This obviously would kill the opponent immediately.

[Glorfindel]

The drawstep actually begins by drawing a card. So you can never use Reset before your opponent draws a card.

[Taurelin]

You can kill them in their upkeep step BEFORE their draw! If you want to do that, however, you can't use Reset. Everything else works just fine.

[deviant]

This might be more of a "works better in Finland than in the rest of the world" thing, but against people who appear less knowledgeable about the legacy metagame, I tend to bluff MUC.

Now in Finland people have always been biased towards control decks, especially in the older formats so everyone is well aware of MUC, but Solidarity is more of a surprise.

Winning "out of blue" makes it just so much easier.

[Zinch]

But then is just better to kill him in your turn before he untaps anything. You can even tap all his lands with turnabout at the end of his turn and then proceed to combo in your turn (but then you need 3-4 turnabouts)

[Shimster]

This might be more of a "works better in Finland than in the rest of the world" thing, but against people who appear less knowledgeable about the legacy metagame, I tend to bluff MUC.
Funny, I normally do the same thing.

I won against 5c Loam Control at the Dutch Legacy Champs because I thrashtalked about finding B2B not fast enough and stuff. He ate up all his ressources because he wanted to get rid of it.

Sadly, multiple Brain Freezes are faster than imaginary blue enchantments. :laugh:

[Bahamuth]

I forgot, but there are always some mono-black or B/x aggro decks around. Maybe those should be in the matchup analysis as well? I played abit against it today, and found Twincast to be quite (not too) useful. I went about 4-5 I think, so it's probably slightly negative, but winnable.

Board:
-1 Wish
-1 Remand
-1 Impulse

+2 Twincast
+1 Meditate (this seems good, FoW their threats, Meditate for new cards. Doesn't work if the opponent plays too many creatures though.)

[ParkerLewis]

You can kill them in their upkeep step BEFORE their draw! If you want to do that, however, you can't use Reset. Everything else works just fine.

About that... does anyone have any idea where the "use only after opponent's upkeep" clause on Reset comes from ??

It's not like they could have predicted this deck... there was no kill condition printed at that point (no BF, no Stroke of Genius... and possible replacement Braingeyser is a sorcery anyway).

Just wondering.

[deviant]

I guess that was meant to press down the power level of the card and avoid it being abused in some unfair combo deck (oh the irony).

It might have seemed too "broken" if you could have used it at any time.
Or they just felt like doing something "original" with it. Just look at some old cards, they just make no sense..

[Van Phanel]

But then is just better to kill him in your turn before he untaps anything. You can even tap all his lands with turnabout at the end of his turn and then proceed to combo in your turn (but then you need 3-4 turnabouts)

This would make it impossible to use Reset at all. When you start comboing of during your opponents upkeep, you can float your mana to their draw step and proceed there.


Also, I have a (very) short tournament report from today:

Legacy at Nuernberg, Dezember 12th (Edit: actually 6th; my bad), 2008:

24 players

I played my usual mainboard but as Dredge had won the last two tournaments at Nuernberg and Team America sees play as well, I decided to give Disrupt a go in the following sideboard:

1 Stroke
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
2 Wipe Away
2 Echoing Truth
2 Twincast
3 Disrupt
1 Hydroblast
1 Rebuild
1 Mystical Tutor



Round 1 against Reanimator:

In game one, my opponent's neighbour sees that he plays Yawgmoth's Will. Two of them. It turns out that was his first tournament since some years ago and he had no idea that he wasn't allowed to play them.

In game 2. I get to Remand an Exhume and can bonce his Reya with Command a turn later. I go off on like turn 6 or 7.

1-0-0

Round 2 against Quinn (pandabaer):

Solidarity is pretty much the only matchup where Quinn has no chance. I wreck him in game 1 and in game 2 I am stuck on three lands but find my fourth land just in time. When he tries for a Chant (Grindstone and 6 lands in play) I can go off. I kill him and he didn't even have the Painter. This match actually was the first time I got to use my foil Stroke of Genius that I got just this week (from donnhart).

2-0-0

Round 3 against U-W-b Cunning Landstill (Wasteland):

He is pretty much the only Landstill player that I fear. Anyway, he doesn't do much but beating with a Factory in game 1 and I go off past three counters, a Cunning Wish and Academy Ruins at some point.

In game 2 an early Meddling Mage and my lack of a fourth land kill me.

In game three he gets Elspeth and beats me to two. I hold High Tide, Reset, Meditate, Force, Twincast, Brain Freeze, Brain Freeze with a lot of lands in play. He lets High Tide resolve and thinks he is save as he can counter five times. Turns out he isn't. Storm really is unfair sometimes.

3-0-0

Round 4: Dredge: ID
Round 5: Belcher: ID

Quarters against R-b-g Goblins (Muradin):

He doesn't have Lackey and I find High Tide in time to win before he could kill me on his turn 5 or 6. In game 2, I neither find my fourth land, nor High Tide and lose to his beats backed up by a Chalice/1. In game 3 I chose to let his Chalice resolve on turn 3 after Remanding it once as I have the Command ready. His Warchief next turn hits me for two and I bounce his Chalice. When he tries to replay it, I go off and kill him.

Semis against U-W-b Landstill (Wasteland again):

The first game is really weird. I mull to five and he mulls to four. We trade some spells and counters but when a Cryptic Command on Brainstorm leaves him with no relevant cards to my five cards in hand, he concedes right away. Game 2 is just as boring. He resolves a Meddling Mage on High Tide and a Standstill, but I get to wish for Wipe Away in response. I have three lands in hand, so I just make my landdrops while he beats for four a turn with Mage + Factory. When I have 7 cards, I Peek him and see that he has only a Brainstorm as relevant card (Standstill, 2 Hydroblast and 3 Lands to go along with it). After I Wipe his Mage Away, he tries to play his Brainstorm and I use the opportunity to go off in response (I had two lands untapped and Tide + Reset in hand).

Finals against Dredge (Jan Schmidt):

As Jan had won the last two tournaments at Nuernberg, it was about time to end his winning streak. I keep a hand without FoW but with a possible turn 3-kill and he starts with Putrid Imp + LED. When he dredges an Analysis into his graveyard on turn two, I concede right away. In game 2 I keep a good hand with FoW and he goes for draw discard dredge. His Troll dredges nothing twice (he literally didn't find anything relevant: no dredger, no Moeba, no Therapy, no Bridge) my hand gets better and even when he does find some relevant cards on his third dredge, it is too late and I go off.

For game 3 I get lucky and he has to mulligan to three. I keep four lands, Opt, Impulse, FoW (I would have mulliganed this hand, but as he went down to three, I figured that one FoW should be enough). For his first spell, a Therapy on himself, I have the Disrupt ready and the game is all but over from there. A mulligan to three is just too hard to overcome.


I get to win a FBB Taiga and trade it for some Solidarity-Foils right away (who has some spare foil fetchlands?)


I'm going to test more with Disrupts as they felt pretty good in the deck. I'm still not sure about a default sideboard configuration though.

Stroke, Meditate, Turnabout, 2 Wipe Away, 2 Echoing Truth, 2 Twincast, 1 Rebuild are the skeleton of all my late sideboards, but the remaining five slots are pretty flexible depending on playstyle and meta, I think.

- Van

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Stroke, Meditate, Turnabout, 2 Wipe Away, 2 Echoing Truth, 2 Twincast, 1 Rebuild are the skeleton of all my late sideboards, but the remaining five slots are pretty flexible depending on playstyle and meta, I think.

I'm sure Divert was suggested and dismissed at some point in the old thread but i have toyed around with it lately in testing against Team America and UWb landstill with Vindicate. It is very good when not expected and it will often buy you at least a turn against decks with hand/land disruption.

EDIT: @Van:You probably meant the 6th rather than 12th of December?

[GreenOne]

I'm sure Divert was suggested and dismissed at some point in the old thread but i have toyed around with it lately in testing against Team America and UWb landstill with Vindicate. It is very good when not expected and it will often buy you at least a turn against decks with hand/land disruption.


Against Sinkhole, Hymn:
Divert shines, Disrupt is great, Spell Snare is good, Force Spike is passable.

Against Counterspells targeting High Tide:
Spell Snare is good. Disrupt might be awesome. Divert might work, Force Spike probably won't.

Against Meddling Mage:
Spell Snare is great. Force Spike may or may not work. Divert and Disrupt are useless.

Against Force of Will:
Disrupt might be awesome, Divert and Force Spike are probably useless, Spell Snare is useless.

Against Duress:
Disrupt shines. Force spike is good. Spell Snare and Divert are useless.

Against Vindicate:
Divert is simply great. Disrupt shines. Force spike is good. Spell Snare useless.

Against Ritual -> Specter
Force spike is great, disrupt shines, spell snare and divert useless.

Against Ritual -> duress, Hymn
Disrupt shines, force spike ok, spell snare and divert useless (they discard 'em with duress, and then hymn)

Against Cabal therapy:
Divert and disrupt shines, force spike might be ok, spell snare useless.

Against Pyrostatic Pillar:
Spell snare shines, force spike might be ok, divert and disrupt useless.


The fact that thoughtseize is widely more played than duress nowadays is a point more for Divert.

Divert is actually the best sideboard card you could run in the black based control or aggrocontrol matchup.
Divert makes a +1 card advantage against Thoughtseize, Vindicate, Sinkhole and a +2 card advantage against Hymn.
Disrupt makes a +1 card advantage against Duress, Thoughtseize, Vindicate, Sinkhole, Hymn, Dark Ritual, Stifle. The downside is that sometimes the opponent have a spare mana.

In other matchups: Divert is quite good against Chant (combo decks), but disrupt is quite good against combo decks too, distrupting their first brainstorms/ponders/mysticals/duress is golden. Disrupt is also good against Dredge.

In sum, I'd play disrupt over divert, but if your meta is filled with black based aggrodontrol, then divert is going to be better.

[ParkerLewis]

Divert makes a +1 card advantage against Thoughtseize, Vindicate, Sinkhole and a +2 card advantage against Hymn.

Little nitpick ; but against Hymn, you could even consider it a +3 CA (you turn a -1 CA into a +2 CA). That's even better than Ancestral : )

[Funky-kun]

I noticed that Stifle wasn't mentioned in the primer, although it often sees play as a Wishboard card.

On a side note, right now I am considering a version with only 4 Fetchlands, 4 Remand and 4 Cunning Wish (all other card choices are standard). A bigger number of Fetchlands means more trouble with Stifle (and Moon effects to a lesser extend) and more pain, which can be relevant sometimes. I find Remand as a great tool against combo, buying you enough time to setup your kill in response to theirs (tested a lot against SI, works wonders). The 4 Cunning Wishes might seem strange, as I haven't seen anyone play that number, but they improve the chance of getting rid of annoying permanents (you know, CB, MM, 3sphere & Chalice, the list goes on), while serving as a great setup spell precombo as well.

EDIT: A question about the people with tournament experience with the deck; do you write down/memorize the cards put at the bottom of the library every time you use such an effect?

[GreenOne]

EDIT: A question about the people with tournament experience with the deck; do you write down/memorize the cards put at the bottom of the library every time you use such an effect?

If it's likely my deck will get shuffled no. Example: It's turn 2 and I play Impulse to find a third land, I take a fetchland, so I don't write the cards.
Anyway, when I impulse I try to remember only the important cards I'm putting on the bottom of the deck (High Tide, Reset, Cunning Wish, Flash of insight, Meditate). When I'm doing a huge Flash of Insight then I'm memorizing/writing the cards, even if it's only for half of the deck or 10-15 cards.

[Van Phanel]

EDIT: @Van:You probably meant the 6th rather than 12th of December?

Nah, I'm just ahead of time.



If it's likely my deck will get shuffled no. Example: It's turn 2 and I play Impulse to find a third land, I take a fetchland, so I don't write the cards.
Anyway, when I impulse I try to remember only the important cards I'm putting on the bottom of the deck (High Tide, Reset, Cunning Wish, Flash of insight, Meditate). When I'm doing a huge Flash of Insight then I'm memorizing/writing the cards, even if it's only for half of the deck or 10-15 cards.

That sums it up pretty well.

[Taurelin]

When I'm doing a huge Flash of Insight then I'm memorizing/writing the cards, even if it's only for half of the deck or 10-15 cards.

I would like to know if this writing down - which might be essential mid-combo when you want to freeze yourself after Flash of Insight to find the right cards in the correct order - might cause trouble.

I found this in the DCI penalty guide:


133. Tournament Error — Slow Play
Definition
Players who take longer than is reasonably required to complete game actions are engaging in Slow Play. If a judge believes a player is intentionally playing slowly to take advantage of a time limit, the infraction is Cheating — Stalling.

Examples (...)
C. A player in a Magic tournament spends time writing down the contents of an opponent's deck when resolving Haunting Echoes.

Penalty
All Levels
Warning


Could this be applied to a Solidarity player writing down the cards of his own deck, too?

[honz]

Could this be applied to a Solidarity player writing down the cards of his own deck, too?

Yah, it absolutely could be. But then again, are you really worried about getting a warning? Also, is your opponent really gonna be that big of a jerk to call a judge because you want to remember how your stacking your deck?

[Julian23]

Yah, it absolutely could be. But then again, are you really worried about getting a warning? Also, is your opponent really gonna be that big of a jerk to call a judge because you want to remember how your stacking your deck?

If my opponent takes a lot of time for doing so I would definitly call a judge. Especially since Solidarity matches in my area often tend to go to time.

[GreenOne]

I usually write them in a fast way, with abbreviations and such. In my notes, 15 cards are written as something like: med, tide, res, wish, foi, bf, c, cc, 7-
Where "c" are 1cc cantrips, cc is impulse, and "-" are lands. This won't take much time usually. Also, if you memorize some of the cards when adjusting your deck even less time is needed.

[gunslinger]

Hey Everybody, as one can tell I'm new to the forums. I have however played Solidarity for a few years, anyway, on to my topic.

I have been contemplating moving the 4th Meditate from the board to the main. I would replace it with a Three Wishes in the board, not as strong obviously but you got 4 Meditates main.

My reasoning behind this change is that Meditate is by far my most wished for target, and the one draw spell I really enjoy seeing before/while going off. Basically, I dislike wishing for draw spells. My problem is what card to cut for the additional Meditate. For reference, I run the version with 2 Cryptic Commands.

I see it as futile to cut a cantrip/draw spell, since I am trying to add another. The countermagic is necessary. So I cut a Brainfreeze, leaving one main and one in the board. Thanks for the help.

[slobad23]

So now your most wished for card will be "three wishes" instead of meditate and you said yourself it was not as strong.

It is in the board because when going off, you have a fair amount of mana and 3 cunning wishes that will pretty much count as meditates - upping it to 6 meditates in your main. I know it's not exactly true, but you get the point. Mana is rarely that tight that you can't wish for a meditate when you are going off and cast the thing.

So when you are no longer wishing for meditate, you are going to be wishing for something else the most, and then you can move that to the main and put an inferior card in its place in the sideboard.

Where does it end?

Slobad23

[Waikiki]

I just playtested phanels list a bit on MWS and fought through 2 CB in play with an active top. I managed to bounce the top with cryptic and then freeze it away. Ended a mystic enforcer on top. So I could finally start casting my high tides and proceed for the win.

Also I fought through hymn hymn seize verdict. The deck really is very impressive.

But I do need to learn more about sb tactics so ill be reading the primer once more ;)

[Nihil Credo]

I have been contemplating moving the 4th Meditate from the board to the main. I would replace it with a Three Wishes in the board, not as strong obviously but you got 4 Meditates main.

My reasoning behind this change is that Meditate is by far my most wished for target, and the one draw spell I really enjoy seeing before/while going off.
So now your most wished for card will be "three wishes" instead of meditate and you said yourself it was not as strong.

It is in the board because when going off, you have a fair amount of mana and 3 cunning wishes that will pretty much count as meditates - upping it to 6 meditates in your main. I know it's not exactly true, but you get the point. Mana is rarely that tight that you can't wish for a meditate when you are going off and cast the thing.

So when you are no longer wishing for meditate, you are going to be wishing for something else the most, and then you can move that to the main and put an inferior card in its place in the sideboard.

Where does it end?

The obvious solution is to play 3 Meditate, 1 Three Wishes MD + 1 Meditate SB.

[Bahamuth]

The obvious solution is to play 3 Meditate, 1 Three Wishes MD + 1 Meditate SB.

True, but that kinda beats the purpose. Three Wishes sucks anyway, and I don't think it's worth it, except when you're in a very heavy-discard meta.

[Van Phanel]

True, but that kinda beats the purpose. Three Wishes sucks anyway, and I don't think it's worth it, except when you're in a very heavy-discard meta.

Wait, it sucks especially in a discard-heavy meta because it can't be used to refill your hand. That aside you are right.

If you really want to improve your chance at finding Meditates, I'd suggest Peer Through Depths main. Myself, I never liked that card and don't think it's necessary, but if you feel the need for more draw, that is what I would suggest. But please don't cut the Meditate from your sideboard so it can stay the card that gets wished the most.

[Shimster]

But please don't cut the Meditate from your sideboard so it can stay the card that gets wished the most.
Quote for truth, my loss against Aggro Loam at the DLC is the best evidence for it. You really need one Meditate in the SB to be able to wish it at any time.

@ VanPhanel: Das hast Du wirklich gut gemacht, Simon. Daumen hoch. :laugh:

[Zinch]

Have you seen the "unlocking legacy" article this week??
(link: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/16837_Unlocking_Legacy_Solidarity_and_Spring_Tide_The_Best_of_Both_Decks.html)

I think the writer underrates this deck, but at least they talk about our deck!! :wink:

[Julian23]

*casts vote for Van Phanel writing a tournament report on SCG*

[Van Phanel]

True that. [Edit: speaking of Zinch's post]

I believe Solidarity to be superior to any other combo-deck when it comes to fighting through hate. Unfortunately that means it suffers in speed which makes TES or ANT better in metas with less disruption. I'm not quite sure where I'd rate Permanent Waves in this pattern but likely between Solidarity and TES/ANT/Belcher both in speed and in the ability to win through disruption.

This is a quite interesting topic by the way which I think should be adressed on its own (but not within this thread). I'll open a thread in Format Discussion.

Edit: @Julian: There'd have to be a larger tournament for that first.

[gunslinger]

Thanks everybody for helping me. Whoever said just put a Three Wishes main made me realize I would never want to draw that card, so it shouldn't be in my sideboard either. Anyway, I just wanted to say thanks, and this is the deck I'm going to play at Worlds.

[Julian23]

http://www.deckcheck.net//deck.php?id=21948

Although this is a Spring Tide list, I'd really love to play Solidarity at that shop...you know why? :-)

[Jade]

http://www.deckcheck.net//deck.php?id=21948

Although this is a Spring Tide list, I'd really love to play Solidarity at that shop...you know why? :-)

You're allowed to play Frantic Search in your Legacy events? :eyebrow:

[mans0011]

http://www.deckcheck.net//deck.php?id=21948

Although this is a Spring Tide list, I'd really love to play Solidarity at that shop...you know why? :-)

Wow. Do they even understand what the Legacy banned list is and what it's for?

[TeKo]

First the Decks were posted in the Vintage Section but the Decks aren't Vintage legal to ;)

Crazy French, Spanish or Italian ppl.

[Illissius]

The really insane part is not that he made T8 with Frantic Search in his deck, but that he played less than four of them. There's no understanding some people...

[Julian23]

What do you guys think; is there any lobby we might be able to create for unbanning Frantic Search? With Academy gone would its impact be justified? :really: I think first one has to consider the reasons for not unbanning it in order to "fight" them.

"ZOMFG n00b, it's broken in combo". Is it? Besides the fact that it's card disadvantage modern storm combo decks would rarely fully benefit from the possibility to untap 3 lands. I lack experience with TES but would it actually play it? Would the cmc of 3 discourage AdN from playing it over e.g. ponder? I have doubts on this.

Would Ichorid play it? Again, mana cost is a big issue here as the untap effect will rarely actually be of relevance. Besides that, why play it over Breakthough or Careful Study in the first place?

Would it be an option in control builds like Landstill? Ok, so this time the untapping is of actual relevance but why trade card quality for card advantage when you already have Brainstorm+Fetchlands?

Threshold? Maybe someone wil proof me wrong on this but in a deck that likes to run just 17/18 lands I think Frantic Search's effect is too weak at three mana.


I give it credit for being really good in Faerie Stompy and Solidarity. Is that enough to justify banning it?

PS: Call me incompetent or naive, I don't mind but I really wanna find out if the banning of Frantic Search in Legacy is really needed to keep the format together.

[Van Phanel]

PS: Call me incompetent or naive, I don't mind but I really wanna find out if the banning of Frantic Search in Legacy is really needed to keep the format together.

I will call you neither, but yes, it is. At the moment, Solidarity is the most consistent combodeck (maybe slightly behind ANT) and the best combodeck to fight through hate, but lacks in speed. Frantic Search would likely make it the best combodeck in an instant. Some adjustments (a third Flash and likely some Think Twice) would have to be made, but that would totally be worth it.

[Seriously]

Have you seen the "unlocking legacy" article this week??
(link: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/16837_Unlocking_Legacy_Solidarity_and_Spring_Tide_The_Best_of_Both_Decks.html)

I think the writer underrates this deck, but at least they talk about our deck!! :wink:


I also think the writer doesnt completely know what hes talking about. when talking about match ups with canadian thresh he lists ONLY the following three cards as stifle targets.

"especially" fetchlands

candelabra of tawnos

mind over matter.


seriously, is it just me, or would any canadian thresh player worth his weight, not save his stifle to stifle brainfreeze ? and then FOW, daze, spell snare a remand if played to grab the brainfreeze back ?


:confused:

[Shimster]

I'd say that's pretty much depending on the specific hands: Solidarity players are likely to play their regular Islands before they are going to drop fetchlands. Thus stifling early fetchies might be a good strategy.

The problem with Stifle on Brain Freeze is that Solidarity just owns every counterspell based disruption during the end of combo step: You've got pretty much all of your own counterspells in your hand and a shitload of blue mana.

9 unconditional hardcounters > 4 unconditional hardcounters + 4 conditional hardcounters [+ 4 inefficient softcounters]

[Bahamuth]

I'd say that's pretty much depending on the specific hands: Solidarity players are likely to play their regular Islands before they are going to drop fetchlands. Thus stifling early fetchies might be a good strategy.

The problem with Stifle on Brain Freeze is that Solidarity just owns every counterspell based disruption during the end of combo step: You've got pretty much all of your own counterspells in your hand and a shitload of blue mana.

9 unconditional hardcounters > 4 unconditional hardcounters + 4 conditional hardcounters [+ 4 inefficient softcounters]

I'd go even further: Stifling fetch in a tempo Thresh list is probably the best you can do. The more time you give Solidarity, the more likely they are to win. Stifling fetchland sets Soldarity effectively back an entire turn (unlike Thresh, because the deck can play off like 2 land). We need at least 4 islands when starting the combo, and the more the better.

[Shimster]

We need at least 4 islands when starting the combo, and the more the better.
Either that or you can just win against Team America with a stifled fetchland on the stack . :tongue:

One of the best reasons to play Stifle is its huge potential regarding fetchlands. Good luck at stifling Brain Freeze, though.

[GreenOne]

I also think the writer doesnt completely know what hes talking about. when talking about match ups with canadian thresh he lists ONLY the following three cards as stifle targets.

"especially" fetchlands

candelabra of tawnos

mind over matter.


seriously, is it just me, or would any canadian thresh player worth his weight, not save his stifle to stifle brainfreeze ? and then FOW, daze, spell snare a remand if played to grab the brainfreeze back ?
:confused:

When the opponent drew half his deck with meditates and such, it's unlikely a stifle+force is going to spell gg.
The control/aggrocontrol player needs to stop the combo as it begins, countering tides, untap effects and early meditates. Stifling a candelabra equals to an hard counter on an untap effect.

[Van Phanel]

I also think the writer doesnt completely know what hes talking about. when talking about match ups with canadian thresh he lists ONLY the following three cards as stifle targets.

"especially" fetchlands

candelabra of tawnos

mind over matter.


seriously, is it just me, or would any canadian thresh player worth his weight, not save his stifle to stifle brainfreeze ? and then FOW, daze, spell snare a remand if played to grab the brainfreeze back ?



It is just you.

Seriously.

[Bahamuth]

Either that or you can just win against Team America with a stifled fetchland on the stack . :tongue:

One of the best reasons to play Stifle is its huge potential regarding fetchlands. Good luck at stifling Brain Freeze, though.

Which you should absolutely Force when you can.

Also, you should pick Wish over Meditate with Impulses.

[lebarion]

Frantic Search would likely make it the best combodeck in an instant.

...and this would be so cool, I would join any lobby to unban Frantic Search in a second :tongue:

Seriously, I don't think unbanning Frantic Search would have such a big impact in the format, in spite of making Solidarity a lot better and probably a tier 1 deck again. I also think this discussion is pointless, however; I only like to bring this subject when drinking a beer with my friends :wink:

[Dan Turner]

are ther any current decklist for this?

[Bahamuth]

are ther any current decklist for this?

It's still the same. 2 Cryptic Command mainboard.

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22050

Note the 6 Snow-Covered Islands. Those are really important new tech.....

[Mantis]

It's still the same. 2 Cryptic Command mainboard.

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22050

Note the 6 Snow-Covered Islands. Those are really important new tech.....
In fact, people might put you on some weird Gifts deck if you land a Snow covered Island and a regular Island, so it might be relevant.

[Hummingbird TG]

In fact, people might put you on some weird Gifts deck if you land a Snow covered Island and a regular Island, so it might be relevant.

Who would want to Gifts for an Island and a Snow-Covered Island?

[Muradin]

The main reason for playing 6 Snow covered Islands and 6 regular Islands is Predict. When you are playing against Threshold they have a quite good chance of hitting with a blind predict on you calling "Island", as there are 12 of them in your deck. This only happens on rare occasions but then it can be good to run some snow covered lands as well.

[deviant]

But there are no snow-covered islands with a pretty picture!

[Hummingbird TG]

Not really, Coldsnap's Snow-Covered Island looks rather nice in foil...

[Van Phanel]

To be honest the reason for running Snow-covered Islands was the simple fact that they are cheaper to get in foil compared to Unhinged. A Predict on Island never actually happens, it's just an urban myth.

[Hummingbird TG]

Wouldn't any other normal (non-Unhinged) Island in foil work in this case? Why specifically Snow-Covered?

[Van Phanel]

Because I can tell other poeple that I did it for that Predict-thingy and it wasn't about the prize. Also I actually like that picture.

[Funky-kun]

So I went to a 10 proxy Legacy tournament in Sofia, my first tournament (not only legacy) ever, with Solidarity of course. I used the following decklist, without proxies 8) :

Maindeck:

14 Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand

4 High Tide
4 Reset
4 Opt
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
4 Remand
4 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will
3 Turnabout
3 Meditate
2 Flash of Insight
2 Brain Freeze

Sideboard:

1 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Stifle
1 Rebuild
2 Twincast
3 Echoing Truth
3 Wipe Away (I didn't see even one worthy target for this o_O)
1 Hurkyl's Recall (I expected some Affinity, and even got paired against one)

I did a lot of thinking about the last card in the Sideboard. I wanted to play a Gaea's Blessing in that slot against Painter Stone, but did the right choice, as there was none of the combo whole day long.

After waiting 2 hours to open the club where the event was going to be held, at last me and my friends were able to get inside. I wasn't expecting a lot of people, maybe something in the lines of 12 to 14. There were 25 people. That was nice for a first time legacy tournament (legacy is not big here in Bulgaria). After writing down the decklists, the actual games started.



Match 1: vs Imperial Aluren

Game 1:

I don't remember who won the die roll, but I started after a mulligan to 6 and kept a solid hand. I had no idea what I was playing against, as there were only random duals and fetches across the table. On turn 2 my opponent tried to play a proxied Imperial Recruiter for 1R instead of 2R, which was quickly fixed. At that moment I knew what I was playing against, unlike my opponent who was staring at my ominous untapped islands. When he resolved the Recruiter a turn later he found another one, and with it some other random irrelevant creature. The notes for my life total show a trajectory of 20-19-17-15-11-10 (fetch). This is by no means something that bothers my gameplan and I off him on 5+ islands with Stroke kill.

Game 2:

My opponent boarded some cards (I presumed discard). I started with 7 cards without any countermagic, asI expected to play against heavy discard. Instead I was punished by turn 2 Wall of Roots, turn 3 Aluren.

Game 3:

I got the sudden idea of swapping a Cunning Wish for a Stifle, as it has a chance to stop his combo or give me some time if used on an early fetchland. I started, keeping the first 7. Now this game I had to go through lots of discard. My opponent started with turn 1 Duress, taking out a Brain Freeze, and continued with a Cabal Therapy on the following turn, hitting 2 Resets. That was followed by an Imperial Recruiter fetching Eternal Witness, which got Remanded. When he tried to replay the witness it got a hardcast FoW. And after all of that, he played another therapy, hitting something again. In the meantime his team of small men was chopping my life total away. When he tried to play his third Therapy some time after that my position was the following: I was at 4 life, with 6 Islands and a fetchland, and a Fow and Brainstorm in hand. I played the Brainstorm, drawing land, Meditate, cantrip. I cracked the fetch to remove the land and FoW from the top of my deck and proceeded to play Meditate, drawing Reset, High Tide, Meditate, Land. I comboed off easily from there. The poor guy couldn't believe I went off only from a mere Brainstorm.




Result: 2:1 games, 1:0 matches



Match 2: vs UWbg Cunning Landstill


Game 1:

Strangely, before the start of the game my opponent tried to teach me it was better to go off in my turn against him (!?). Whatever. I won the die roll and started, keeping my first 7. The dude played a Factory on turn 2 and started beating me down with it. Some time after that, when we both were on 5 lands he tried an EOT Cunning Wish, tapping himself out completely. I responded with Tide, he FoW'd, I FoW'd back, pitching Reset, and decked him with Brain Freeze + Remand. Before the dude scooped, I noticed some of the cards in his grave, namely Stifle, which scared me a little. Strange, I expected the game against Landstill to take some time, knowing that the two most latemage-oriented decks in legacy are playing.

I was expecting fighting through permanent hate like Meddling Mage and Rule of Law/Arcane Laboratory, so I boarded: -1 High Tide, -1 Impulse, -2 Opt, +2 Twincast, +2 Wipe Away. I started 2nd, keeping a hand of 5 lands, High Tide and FoW. The first play of the game was a turn 2 Goyf, which got Forced, pitching the newly drawn card, because I needed more time to setup against this kind of deck. My opponend played a Landstill on the following turn, which I gladly let resolve. I played land after land, and a raging Factory was lowering my life total. I broke the Landstill at some point, setting up with a Flash of Insight. The next turn I went down to 6 life, and there was a Factory and a thresholded Monastery on the other side of the table. It was time. I had 7 islands in play. I resolved a tide, and tried a Meditate, which got hit by a Counterspell. I tried a Turnabout on myself, which got FoW'd, to which I responded with a FoW of myself, which got hit by yet another FoW. After flashing and finding nothing of relevance, I scooped in the face of lethal damage.

Game 3:

As I saw no permanent hate, but a fater clock, I got a Tide and an Opt back, taking out the bounce. The third game was also very different form a typical Landstill game. I started with fetch, crack go, trying to avoid Stifle. The slowest legacy deck started imitating aggro with 2 Tarmogoyfs and 2 Manlands. I was forced to try to go off on 5 island. Here I made a mistake. The dude played a Brainstorm, which I let resolve. If I had tried to go off at this point, he would have lost, as the only relevant card in his hand was an Extirpate. The other mistake was the same I made in game 2, I tried to go off at the beginning of the combat phase, not waiting for him to use his mana on the manlands. Absolutely horrible mistake from me, 2 times in a row. Oh well, I will know better next time. Instead I flashbacked a Flash of Insight, finding High Tide, which I resolved, and tried Turnabout. In response, my Tides got Extirpated and the Turnabout got a Coutnerspell.



Result: 3:3 games, 1:1 matches



Match 3: vs Dredge


Game 1:

And there was my first (and only) truly negative matchup for the day. I won the die roll and kept my starting 7. My opponent started with a Cabal Therapy targeting himself, which I logically countered, as this was shouting he had no other discard outlets. The game took some time, with me drawing little land and relevant cards. Eventually my opponent got 3 of his 12 lands and played a Stinkweed Imp, which I should have Remanded, but let resolve instead. This was a mistake, as he Darkblasted it, and started a dredge chain from there. I used my Remand on a flashbacked Deep Analysis, but the replay of the first turn therapy got my Tide and the killed me before I could do anything relevant.

Game 2:

I boarded out 2 Flash of Insight and 2 Cunning Wish for 3 Echoing Truth and a Turnabout. I mulled to 6 and kept a solid 6 with 2 lands, Echoing truth and a Fow. He started with 2 LEDs, one of which got cracked, and he beat me 2 turns with an Ichorid, then running out of gas. When he started playing again it was too late.

Game 3:

I kept my first 7 and Forced a turn 1 PImp, only to see another one on turn 2, followed by a turn 3 therapy (missing Tide). It was downhill for me from there. He killed me, therapying my Echoing Truth and Counters.



Result: 3:5 games, 1:2 matches



Match 4: vs RBg Gobbos


Game 1:

I lost the die roll and started the game against the strongly demoralized dude, who lost the last two games on turn 1 against my friend playing The Spanish Inquisition. On turn 2 he resolved a Mogg War Marshall, and I was fairly calm. When I untapped on turn 3 I had no land, and Impulsed (in order not to waste time), again finding not land. When I found the third Island some turns later it was already too late.

Game 2:

-1 Cunning Wish, +1 Echoing thruth. My first 7 and the following 6 had no land, and I kept a 5 card hand with FoW and Remand. Sadly, I drew 5 lands in a row and was lacking business spells. As my last chance I played a Meditate with 3 out of my 5 lands, drawing land, land, land, Force. Frowntown. The dude across the table was as stunned as I was, and when leaving the event told me to count this as a 2:0 win for me, leaving me with a "o_O" look on the face.



Result: 5:5 games, 2:2 matches



Match 5: vs Affinity /w Goyf & Bob


Game 1:


I won the die roll again, and my opponent started too slow, beating me with only a 1/1 Worker for the first 4 turns, while I wished for a Hurkyl's Recall. Then he played 2 Goyfs and a Confidant through his Vial, which didn't care a lot for the Recall, and threatened me for lethal. I flipped his deck upside-down as punishment, and tapped his creatures to survive.

Game 2:

-1 Cunning Wish, +1 Hurkyl's Recall. My opponent mulled to 5 and started, playing 3 consecutive Frogmites on one turn, followed by a Plating on the next turn. The next turn he topdecked the needed artifact for lethal damage and I was forced to go off on 3 Islands. My hand was Tide, Tide, Reset, Reset, Turnabout, Meditate, and another card, With I think. The problem was that I was suspecting he was playing a Gaea's Blessing, as he was looking for one before the tournament, and trying to play around it on 3 Islands is not easy. The meditate dread me only a Brain Freeze as business, and I was forced to play all cards in hand, saving only a Turnabout (to prevent the damage), Freezing myself for 8 copies plus the original Brain Freeze. There was a small crowd around us watching the game, and they got a "wtf?" reaction from this play. Cool. :) I started imitating Cephalid Breakfast, and hopefully the last 3 milled cards included a Flash of Insight. Here playing against Blessing got harder, as the only win condition left in my deck was a Cunning Wish, and I needed the Turnabout in my hand for mana. The only card advantage spell in the deck was a Flash of Insight, which I used for 1 after stacking my deck, then flashbacking for 1 again into a chain of cantrips into Cunning Wish. I Recalled his board to save me and Freezed him for lethal with a Wish and 4 blue mana floating ready for the Blessing he never had.



Result: 7:5 games, 3:2 matches



I didn't make t8. I did some play mistakes, but I'm partially happy about them, because I will learn from my mistakes. The deck turned out to be a great meta choice as there was zero Counterbalance. The meta included:

2 Dredge
2 UGr Thrash
1 UGb Thrash
1 Affinity
1 RGB Belcher
1 ANT
1 Spanish Inquisition
1 GBr Gobbos
1 MonoR Burn
1 Geddon Stax
1 Imperial Aluren
1 Glimpse Elves
1 Kobolds!
1 Zuberas!
1 WBUR fish
1 MonoU Merfolk
1 UWgb Cunning Landstill
1 Deadguy Ale
1 Cephalid Breakfast.


The top 8 included the Landstill, the 3 Thrashes, Belcher, ANT, Dredge and Deadguy. The Landstill and Belcher ended up drawing for the prize (wtf?) of 4 signed Force of Will.

[GreenOne]

And there was my first (and only) truly negative matchup for the day. I won the die roll and kept my starting 7. My opponent started with a Cabal Therapy targeting himself, which I logically countered, as this was shouting he had no other discard outlets. The game took some time, with me drawing little land and relevant cards. Eventually my opponent got 3 of his 12 lands and played a Stinkweed Imp, which I should have Remanded, but let resolve instead. This was a mistake, as he Darkblasted it, and started a dredge chain from there. I used my Remand on a flashbacked Deep Analysis, but the replay of the first turn therapy got my Tide and the killed me before I could do anything relevant.

Yeah, you should have remanded the Stinkweed not because he could have Dark Blasted it, but just because he could sac him with the Cabal Therapy he played on turn one.

Anyway, it's a good tournament to be your first one. Keep on rocking with Solidarity and with time and experience the Tides will turn in your favor. :wink:

[Bahamuth]

14 Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand

4 High Tide
4 Reset
4 Opt
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
4 Remand
4 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will
3 Turnabout
3 Meditate
2 Flash of Insight
2 Brain Freeze

Sideboard:

1 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Stifle
1 Rebuild
2 Twincast
3 Echoing Truth
3 Wipe Away (I didn't see even one worthy target for this o_O)
1 Hurkyl's Recall (I expected some Affinity, and even got paired against one)


4 Fetchland isn't enough I think. I'd play at least 5.

Also, I advise you to cut one Wish, because they generally suck in multiples.




Match 2: vs UWbg Cunning Landstill


Game 1:

Strangely, before the start of the game my opponent tried to teach me it was better to go off in my turn against him (!?).

He's actually right. A pretty strong strategy is to Turnabout his lands at the end of his turn and then win in your own.

[Funky-kun]

4 Fetchland isn't enough I think. I'd play at least 5.

Fearing stifles, I prefer playing less of them. I never found them lacking in number to support the Brainstorm trick. Also, the life loss is relevant. The number is a personal preference, I guess.


Also, I advise you to cut one Wish, because they generally suck in multiples.

I didn't have a problem in any of the games I played in the tournament, and like having more ways to get a CB out of the way that are not bad mid combo. (yeah, that is for you, Cryptic Command! :laugh: ). Both of these choices are backed up by personal playtesting.


He's actually right. A pretty strong strategy is to Turnabout his lands at the end of his turn and then win in your own.

Yeah, that actually is so, but I didn't have the time to setup that in any of the games due to his timely beats. In order to do it, a hand of Tide, Turnabout x2, FoW and some business is needed, and that isn't accomplished very easy. And judging by his reaction when I went in response of his Cunning Wish game 1, he wasn't having this in mind.

[GreenOne]

In order to do it, a hand of Tide, Turnabout x2, FoW and some business is needed, and that isn't accomplished very easy. And judging by his reaction when I went in response of his Cunning Wish game 1, he wasn't having this in mind.

With 6-7 lands in play you can just turnabout their land on the main phase and go off in the end step, fearing only FOW. If they counter it, well, one less counter to worry about.

[Bahamuth]

So I played in the GPT in Utrecht yesterday, going 6-2 and placing 15th. I was very glad with my results.

Round 1: ANT. I win game 1. He gets a game loss because he handed in his decklist too late.

Round 2: Faerie stompy. I win game 1 because he doesn't find blue. I lose game 2 and 3 to a combination of FoW's and Arcane Labaratory's.

Round 3: Crappy aggro with 12 MB discard. I win 2-1

Round 4: MUC. These were great games. I won game 1 easily. I probably mistaked game 2 by going off too early. I only manage to Freeze his deck away spare 6 cards. He kills me with 3 Sowers while having 1 card left. Game 3 he sees 4 Chalices. I let the ones on 1 and 2 resolve. I counter the 3th (on 3) after getting a crappy Meditate. Some turns later he tries again, and I manage to resolve a Meditate, then Triple-FoW his Chalice and finish with 2 Brain Freeze.

Round 5: Eva Green. I lose. Lame. He wins game 3 with turn 1 Ritual Thoughtseize Hymn, Turn 2 Ritual Hyppie.

Round 6: UGr Tempo Thresh. I win 2-1. I manage to win game 2 thanks to him casting a Ponder.

Round 7 ANT: 2-1 again. He get's pretty unlucky game 3, but I had a solid hand anyway.

Round 8 Goblins: 2-0. I have FoW for Lackey and Remand for Warchief game 1, and game 2 he only has a Port after mulling. I am stuck at 3 land too, but my hand is pretty insane.

[Van Phanel]

I also played the GPT at Utrecht. My report:

Round 1: Goblins

G1: I keep a hand with lots of mana, Meditate and lands. I kill him on turn 4.
G2: He goes Lackey, Thoughtseize my Tide, Port, Turn 4 kill.
G3: He goes Lackey into Ringleader and topdecks black mana on turn 3. He Thoughtseizes my Tide and I lose.

Round 2: Goblins

G1: I keep a hand with a possible turn 3, likely turn 4. He goes, Lackey, Siege-Gang, Piledriver, Turn 3 kill
G2: I kill him on turn 4
G3: I keep 3 Land, Tide, Reset, Meditate, Brainstorm. He goes Lackey into Warchief, 3 Piledriver, kill me on turn 3.

Round 3: Dredge (Lukas Preuss)

G1 he struggles at finding a dredger. I try for the combo in response to a Therapy on turn 5 or 6 and fizzle after having resolved a Meditate without finding an untap. He therapies my Tide, and Dredges a Stinkweed Imp but can't find a second dredger (he's something like 25 cards into his library) or a Moeba, just a single Ichorid in his extraturn. When I get to untap I actually manage to win the game. This game showed exactly why we both were at 0-2, he dredged just crap while I didn't draw good either.

G2 he keeps a hand with 3 Careful Study but can't find a dredger while I don't find a second land in my Brainstorm (good hand aside from being a one-lander). At some point he does find a dredger though and gets to Therapy my hand apart and kill me a turn later.

G3 I keep a one-lander with Disrupt hoping to draw into land with that but he goes DDD and only walks into the Disrupt on turn 3. I find lands number two and three, but he is one turn to fast as I couldn't find a Tide.

0-3 drop.

Screw that.

At least one of the other guys from my car won the whole thing or it would have been an incredible waste of time.

Nice job Bahamuth btw.

- Van

[WizardTop]

Ok guys, I just started playing this deck after recently switching over from Ichorid and I need some help. My metagame is very combo heavy...I have ANT, Rainbow Tendrils, Spring Tide, Ichorid, Fetchland Tendrils, and the occasional DragonStompy. Life is tough. I am wanting to know what you guys would change or have in your deck and sideboard for these matchups. Oh and Threshold will be entering the meta soon so any help with that would be greatly appreciated!

Pce,

WizardTop

[Bahamuth]

Ok guys, I just started playing this deck after recently switching over from Ichorid and I need some help. My metagame is very combo heavy...I have ANT, Rainbow Tendrils, Spring Tide, Ichorid, Fetchland Tendrils, and the occasional DragonStompy. Life is tough. I am wanting to know what you guys would change or have in your deck and sideboard for these matchups. Oh and Threshold will be entering the meta soon so any help with that would be greatly appreciated!

Pce,

WizardTop

Against ANT, Twincast is strong. Disrupt on their cantrips is really good too.

For Ichorid, Echoing Truth helps. Disrupt is good here too.

Echoing Truth is nuts against Dragon Stompy.

For Thresh, you probably need some Wipe Away SB.

Do you guys board in Twincast against Thresh with Spell Snare? Also, Do you usually wait until the turn with lethal damage, or a turn earlier?

[knightinabox]

Hey guys, sort of new to the whole legacy deal. I am fishing for decks to play, and I have shown interest in this one, dredge and Enchantress. I have a meta filled with Storm based decks, Dreadstill, Affinity and Psychatog and Painter (Those are the most commonly played). Think this deck will do fine in a meta like that? I have been testing all of the decks stated above and this one can win out of nowhere. It's quite hilarious. At the moment, it's down to this versus Enchantress >.> Thoughts? Oh and Twincast is INSANE here. Just thought I'd state the obvious.

[GreenOne]

Hey guys, sort of new to the whole legacy deal. I am fishing for decks to play, and I have shown interest in this one, dredge and Enchantress. I have a meta filled with Storm based decks, Dreadstill, Affinity and Psychatog and Painter (Those are the most commonly played). Think this deck will do fine in a meta like that? I have been testing all of the decks stated above and this one can win out of nowhere. It's quite hilarious. At the moment, it's down to this versus Enchantress >.> Thoughts? Oh and Twincast is INSANE here. Just thought I'd state the obvious.
I love enchantress, but it really sucks against combo, so it's not a good choice in your meta. I'd say that Ichorid is the best of the 3 decks you wanted to play in your metagame, with solidarity being second.

[Taurelin]

A friend of mine (not a member on this board) borrowed Solidarity from me and piloted it in a small local tournament (see report here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=312966#post312966)). He went second, achieving the same number of match points as the winner, who merely had better opp-scores.

Here's my list (very similar to Van Phanel's with Mystical Tutor SB, but a slightly changed bounce-arsenal):

// Lands
12 [MI] Island (4)
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Spells
2 [SC] Brain Freeze
4 [IA] Brainstorm
2 [LRW] Cryptic Command
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
2 [JU] Flash of Insight
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FE] High Tide (2)
4 [VI] Impulse
3 [TE] Meditate
4 [IN] Opt
3 [RAV] Remand
4 [LG] Reset
3 [US] Turnabout

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze
SB: 1 [TE] Meditate
SB: 1 [US] Turnabout
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 2 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [MI] Mystical Tutor
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 1 [US] Stroke of Genius
SB: 2 [SOK] Twincast
SB: 3 [TSP] Wipe Away

His matchups were:

Match1 vs GW RogueRectorRock 2:0
A weird deck with Loxodon Hierarch, Sakura-Tribe Elder, Academy Rector (for Debtor's Knell, Recurring Nightmare) and other goodies, which won the tournament. My friend was surprised G1 by an unexpected Gaea's Blessing in the maindeck (!!!), but still managed to continue the combo and finished with Stroke.

Match 2 vs Faerie Stompy 0:2
Chalice, FoW and fast beatdown broke his neck (it was a traditional build with CoF and Psionic Blast).

Match 3 vs Train Wreck 2:0
After a serious discard spree in one game he won with 6 Islands on the field and only 2x Tournabout and 1x Meditate in hand (finding Meditate, High Tide, Cunning Wish, Polluted Delta). Solidarity is so awesome! :cool:

Match 4 vs Vial Goblins/gb 2:1
He lost G1 to Lackey. G2 his opponent ran through a mulligan orgy, and in the final game Solidarity's goldfish was just quicker.


The meta all in all was very combo-friendly (no single Thresh player, no Counterbalance, no fast-combo). And in such an unprepared environment Solidarity can still run wild.

[Griniggubbe]

Played this list in a small local 14-man Tournament yesterday finishing second with 4-0-1

// Lands
14 Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta

// Spells
2 Brain Freeze
3 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Turnabout

3 Force of Will
3 Remand
3 Twincast
1 Cryptic Command

4 Brainstorm
3 Opt
4 Impulse
2 Flash of Insight
3 Meditate
4 Cunning Wish

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Stroke of Genius
SB: 1 High Tide
SB: 1 Meditate
SB: 1 Turnabout
SB: 1 Rebuild
SB: 1 Force of will
SB: 3 Echoing Truth
SB: 3 Disrupt
SB: 3 Wipe Away

Round 1 VS G/W Aggro 2-0
1) Nothing really, Comboed of in face of lethal dmg on turn 4
2) Same as above

Round 2 VS R/B Tendrils - Combo 2-1
1) Manage to go Infinite vs a turn 2 Iggy. Got to love that :tongue:
2) I screw up and tried to combo off in response to a lethal tendrils and realise mid combo that I had boarded out every cunning wish and scoop much to my opponent suprice
3) Wierd match; Im forced to combo off in response to an adnausum with 2 lands in play. Manage to find a Fow but we have both depleted our hands. We play draw go for a few rounds. Soon he starts to go beatdown with a Simian spirit guide and I combo off on 2 lifes with full hand and 8 lands in play

Round 3 VS Fearies 2-1
1) Try to combo off on turn 4 but Tide nr 1 and 2 gets Fow'ed and spellstuttered followed by a daze on my remand...sigh! I top deck a cunning wish next turn though and wish for tide and the win.
2) Fetchland gets stifled, brainstorm gets daze'd and turn 3 he got counterbalance online...
3) He gets stuck on 1 island but beating me with multiple mutavaults. Eot I Wipe Away his only island and manage to combo of through a fow. He was holding stifle, daze and spellstutter sprite :smile:

Round 4 ID with Teammate

Round 5 VS Elves?!? 2-0
Same as round 1 really. Just a bit more shaky cause I had to mulligan both games


Sorry for my very poor gramar, English is not my native language.

I realise that Im not playing the usual decklist but it works for me. Cant imagine playing without a Tide in the board and at least 2 Twincast main.

[Bahamuth]

Interesting list. Did you ever felt you drew too many Wishes? Do you think Twincast makes your deck significantly faster?

Why only 4 Fetch? Did you always find one when Brainstorming?

[cjva]

Interesting list. Did you ever felt you drew too many Wishes? Do you think Twincast makes your deck significantly faster?

Why only 4 Fetch? Did you always find one when Brainstorming?

I play a similar list. At least in what i find to be the important part.

3 Hight Tide in main and 1 to Wish for with the additional Wish in main.

I whould say that the 4'th Wish is needed in the deck, becouse you are more likely to play it to fetch the High Tide on your opponents EOT turn 3 and go for the Win in his turn 4. My testing has convinced me that this is the way to play the deck. It makes it less likely to win with 3 lands in play, but far more likely to win on turn 4.

If Griniggubbe are the one i think he are i can see the point of running a lesser amount of fetch. The gothenburg meta is packed with decks playing stifle. Lots of Team America, Stifle/nought, different versions of landstills and even 1 Goblin deck splashing blue for stifle.

This whould probably be true to any meta with many decks running stifle. Your landdrops are far to important.

I'm not a fan of Twincast, being useful only when comboing off but not finding the missing pieces for the combo. It tend to be a dead card very often when i play it.

Nice list anyway, and nice to see that the solidarity movement still lives. ;)

(and yes, English aint my primary language so there might be quite some misspellings in my text)

[MULocke]

Okay, I've been playing with the standard maindeck for awhile in small tournaments as well as random testing, but I'm not sure if I want to start taking this to bigger tournaments. What would you guys bring as a sb for a meta that is a little heavier on storm combo, team america, and ITF? Also, I play with cryptics in the open slots, but should those be twincasts now? This is what I'm thinking:

1 stroke
1 meditate
1 brain freeze
1 rebuild
1 turnabout
1-2 echoing truth
3-4 disrupt
2-3 wipe away
2-4 twincast
beb?

Or do I just play thrash like I always do?

[deadlock]

Just play Thresh...



If your meta is really overcrowed with these three decks, you could play
2 Twincast
2 Remand
1 Cryptic C (or 2 and 1 Remand)
in the maindeck.

Note that CC is a very good tool against CB obviously and i would hesitate to cut it completly because of ITF, where their only hope is to land a CB.

Twincast is good against all three decks, its not that strong against ITF, but still okay. So i would at least run two, but not more than three between MD and SB.
Disrupt is good too, because it can be useful against both Storm and TA. So run atleast three (you want to see it early).
I run between 2-3 Hydroblast most of the time, because of Goblins Aggro Loam and Burn eventually.
Echoing Truth is versatile, but doesnt seem to be that good in your meta, 1-2 are okay.

Basically what you said..

[Van Phanel]

I run between 2-3 Hydroblast most of the time, because of Goblins Aggro Loam and Burn eventually.
Echoing Truth is versatile, but doesnt seem to be that good in your meta, 1-2 are okay.

I lately found that Hydroblasts are not the best card to board against Goblins (or against anything actually). While they are sometimes faster than you are, the main problem are their sideboarded cards and Hydroblasts help neither against Thoughtseize, nor Chalice (Squad is useless surprisingly often). you might want one Hydroblast sb but likely not more.

A fast clock doesn't bother us and disruption is no problem either, but both together cripple us. Especially against Thoughtseize in their sb I haven't quite found a useful solution yet (Disrupt is entirely useless not only because they're useless against their aggro, but more so because any decent Goblin-player won't play Thoughtseize on turn1).

The trick would be to have a card that helps both against beaters and against disruption. Cryptic Command does that job, but it is rather slow against Goblins.

Against Aggro-Loam more than one Hydroblast sucks as well, as our problem-cards are Chalice or Thoughtseize or Raven's Crime. They rarely can afford to play early Dreams in fear of Remand/ FoW which would remove a huge part of their hand.


Summary: I wouldn't recommend more than one Hydroblast, unless you know that you'll have to play against red hate (Pillar, REB, Scirocco).


Edit:


Okay, I've been playing with the standard maindeck for awhile in small tournaments as well as random testing, but I'm not sure if I want to start taking this to bigger tournaments. What would you guys bring as a sb for a meta that is a little heavier on storm combo, team america, and ITF? Also, I play with cryptics in the open slots, but should those be twincasts now? This is what I'm thinking:

[...]

I can only recommend playing Solidarity, but I might be a little bit biased.

Don't play more than one Twincast main. While very good against blue decks, you'll sometimes find yourself without a target especially in fast matchups.

These are the cards I build my sideboard from currently (the cards above the first line are Wishtargets and never changed and the cards in the middle are always included, unless I know for sure that I won't need one of them in a certain meta):

1 Stroke of Genius
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
-------------------------
2 Wipe Away
2 Echoing Truth
1 Twincast
1 Rebuild
1 Mystical Tutor
-------------------------
1 Wipe Away
1 Echoing Truth
1 Repeal
2 Twincast
1 Hydroblast
4 Disrupt


Against combo, Twincast, Disrupt, Mystical Tutor and Hydroblast (if they are red) are useful (in this order) and I tend to board one Truth as well if I suspect Empty the Warrens. Against Team America, Disrupt is amazing and Twincast is useful and against ITF you'll want to board 2-3 Wipe Away and 1-2 Twincast. Boarding against ITF is actually a bit of a guessing game, as your board depends on how many CMC3 cards you expect them to have postboard (only Intuition sometimes, but they might leave in some Deeds to strengthen their CB).

[cjva]

Van Phanel: I play against black decks packing discard very often and have found Divert to be a useful card. Against thoughtsize, cabal therapy and against hymn. Rarely play against goblins packing discard thought, so i don't know if this is the solution on the fast clock + discard strategy they run. But i my world it is a very good strategy against the discard element.

[Van Phanel]

Divert helps against several problems but certainly not against Goblins packing discard. A goblin player who plays discard before turn 3 is stupid (most of the time; of course there are exceptions). Taking a card from our opening hand still gives us three turns to find a replacement and that should be absolutely possible. If they wait until turn 3 or 4 when our hand is nearly ready to combo out, taking a vital combopart away (more often than not a Tide) can be crucial.

The problem with Divert is that it doesn't deal with Duress or early cantrips against combo. Against Burn, Disrupt is better as well (unless they play around it, but then you should have enough time to win anyway). And of course there's Dredge where Disrupt + Remand + FoW (+ Truth) can steal some games while Divert isn't able to stop Careful Study or Breakthrough. Summed up, Disrupt is the more flexible card, but in a meta with lots of decks packing Thoughtseize, Hymn, Sinkhole and/or Vindicate I can see Divert being viable.

- Van

[cjva]

Van Phanel: I agree with you. It took very long time for me to switch disrupt for divert in my board, and if I'm going to an unknown meta i will surely put disrupt in my board instead of divert.

The experience i have with the deck is that if my opponent wait until turn 4 it is most of the time to late for them. Numerous times i just go off and win as a response to their turn 4 hymn/duress/sinkhole.

But the question remains. How to we tackle a fast clock backed up with disruption?

To sum it up: I agree with you, and my choice is very meta-dependent. As a SB always should be.

[GGoober]

I played against Solidarity and I must say this deck is the coolest deck ever. I'm wondering what are the bad matchups for the deck?

I've seen it get raced by Turn 1 Lackey (since it has no answers for that except FOW). How does the deck play against opposing Tendril combo? How does it function against discard? I'm guessing the bad MUs will be opposing Tendril combo and countertop, but I'm not sure whether this deck has a good MU against Thresh. I know it does well against Stax since I was the Stax player and my opponent (Solidarity) went turn 3 EOT Wish for Rebuild and proceed to win from there after bouncing Chalice/3Spheres.

I'm curious to know how the deck does in the meta since I'm considering on getting a set of Resets :)

[cjva]

crz87: Look at the first post in this thread. Takes up very good what the bad MU's are.

I have never had any particular problems with tendrils-combo or belcher. FoW and other control elements gives me the time i need.

My biggest problem has always been discard and CB.Trying to find a way around it. Discard + a fast clock is a big problem.

But read the original post in this thread. Goddie, goddie. And start play solidarity, becouse it is by far the most rewarding deck to play. Its fun, it advanced and you have a answer to everything. takes time to learn, so focus on analysing your games. You will need it.

[KillemallCFH]

I'm guessing the bad MUs will be opposing Tendril combo and countertopPretty much. Solidarity originally fell out of favor because of the prevalence of Thresh, specifically CB (although even before CB, Thresh was still a bad matchup, I believe). Also, other, faster, combo decks are generally favored against Solidarity, due to Solidarity's slower clock and somewhat meager protection suite (most Tendrils decks can easily ignore a single FoW/Remand).

However, the biggest issue is that an active CB is pretty hard to win through. Now, it is certainly not impossible. A lot of lists lately have been incorporating things like Cryptic Command to address the CB issue, but no matter what you do, CB will always be problematic for the deck.

[GreenOne]

It's really ages I'm not playing the deck, but from my testing (before AN) the combo matchup was even. FoW alone can't do much, but the mix of FoW, Remand, Disrupt, Spell Snare, Cryptic Command, Twincast and a turn 4/5 clock is nothing to sneeze at.

[Bahamuth]

It's really ages I'm not playing the deck, but from my testing (before AN) the combo matchup was even. FoW alone can't do much, but the mix of FoW, Remand, Disrupt, Spell Snare, Cryptic Command, Twincast and a turn 4/5 clock is nothing to sneeze at.

Exactly. Many people seem to belive Solidarity loses to faster combo, but it certainly doesn't. I'm quite sure I am about even to both TES and ANT, and I'm favoured against DDFT (which is just because they use Doomsday to win). Twincast is absolutely huge against fast combo.

Thresh pre-CB was a bad matchup because of the Meddling Mages they played. Since they don't anymore, I'd say I'm about even against versions with no CB, but still pretty unfavoured against Thresh with CB. Goblins is favourable, but not that much, since they are often very fast and have some nasty SB plans. Discard poses a problem too, but the deck is so random you will sometimes win easily and sometimes be chanceless.

[lavafrogg]

Omg...
Just to build suspense I am going to announce that I believe I have solved solidarity's problems. I am testing right now but will post more here shortly!

mods-I know this isn't a real post but I am sooooo excited!

[Jak]

Omg...
Just to build suspense I am going to announce that I believe I have solved solidarity's problems. I am testing right now but will post more here shortly!

mods-I know this isn't a real post but I am sooooo excited!

Didgeridoo isn't an instant.

[Valtrix]

Then I'll make sure not to change channels...For now anyway.

[bowvamp]

Omg...
Just to build suspense I am going to announce that I believe I have solved solidarity's problems. I am testing right now but will post more here shortly!

mods-I know this isn't a real post but I am sooooo excited!

:laugh: Thanks!
Anyways, if you did find this miracle cure, how's testing been going?
Make sure it isn't anything already in permanent waves!

[lavafrogg]

(This is a progressive post I made on the solidarity boards, much of the people are the same so I will just post it here too.)

I hate this to be a post that I make just because it is such a random idea but,
I was just at a small legacy tournament and I was playing FS (Fetchland Soli) and I was looking through my deck while registering. I accidentally had two decree of justice shuffled into the deck. At first I laughed but after second thought I swapped out two cards main for the decrees.

I have been experimenting with all kinds of alternate win cons in the deck and this just seemed crazy enough to work.

It was a horrible success! The card did everything I wanted it to do! It was perfect! I am now rushing off to play test the deck and find the right numbers but I really think I found something!

For example:
1. At eot I drew a card( not broken I know but does EtW draw cards?)
2. On turn four eot I made nine 1/1 solders! I then remanded/orims chanted answers while turning sideways ftw!
3. I hard cast the decree for four angels! when my resets were extirpated(go go turnabout!)

I mean I have played a lot of solidarity and this was the single most fun I have ever had! I also run 4 chants 3 grips but the decrees are the biggest find for me!

Oh and one more thing I also run think twice over peer because the deck needs card advantage!
I will post a list here as soon as I get one it should be soon!


Ok here is the first list!

4 high tide
3 turnabout
3 meditate
2 cunning wish
4 opt
4 force of will
4 brainstorm
2 flash of insight
4 reset
3 impulse
3 remand
1 brain freeze
2 decree of justice
3 think twice

1 tropical island
2 tundra
4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
9 island

side
1 stroke of genius
1 brain freeze
1 meditate
1 twincast
1 turnabout
1 rebuild
3 krosan grip
1 echoing truth
4 orim's chant
1 chain of vapor

Once again here is a list of pros and cons:
Pros:
1. you can now attack for the win
2. no storm count needed
3. choice of leaving creature kill in
4. can be used in combo(not mana efficient but hey)
5. Can be hard cast main phase to get around counterbalance
6. Cant be countered (except stifle)

Cons:
1. Still need abundance of mana
2. Makes creature kill useful.
3. not efficient during combo
4. Opens us up for more non basic land hate.

Well that's all I can say now, I look forward for your input!

Final Edit:
Some deck choices are strange- the think twice are to make up for the card disadvantage force of will gives you and really helps against discard.

I really want the fourth remand due to its time walking and storm doubling ability.

No peer through the depths due to the reveal and the lack of land fetching.

Finally, the orim's chants are for fast combo and thresh and the grips are there for counterbalance and general utility.

[Bahamuth]

I'm not convinced. I've been testing Hunting Pack in the past, and I don't really see why Decree would be much better than that card. Opening yourself up to EE and Deed is certainly not a good idea in my opinion. Your pro's list with my comments:

Pros:
1. you can now attack for the win
I don't see how this is an advantage?

2. no storm count needed
Sure, but this deck hardly ever struggles to reach a high enough storm count. The problems lie elsewhere.

3. choice of leaving creature kill in
Woohoo? If you're able to kill creatures with a cycled Decree, you'll probably be able to win as well.

4. can be used in combo(not mana efficient but hey)
It's certainly not better than Cryptic Command here.

5. Can be hard cast main phase to get around counterbalance
Which would cost at least 6 mana, 7 to get around Daze. You'd have to resolve a Turnabout as well, since you only play one Tundra.

6. Cant be countered (except stifle)
Same as for every other kill we use.

Cons:
2. Makes creature kill useful.
Really an important point. Our goal is to minimize the amount of answers the opponent has for us. You're practially giving the opponent cardadvantage by playing this card.

4. Opens us up for more non basic land hate.
Same holds true as with point 2.

Do you already have some decent test results against CB Thresh?

[TimeTwister]

Ahoi,

but at the other hand it makes the boarding against solidarity hard for the opponents.
Because they can't just board out Wrath, EE, etc. for other disruption!

I like the Idea, but I would rather go for 2x Tundra and no Tropical, because krosan grip has the same effect as wipe away!


regards
TimeTwister

[deadlock]

Sorry for the delay, i first want to talk about Hydroblast and the Goblin matchup.
I haven't played High Tide for some time, so my information might be a bit outdated.
The idea behind (atleast) 2 Hydroblast was, that this deck can still lose to a first turn Lackey, so i wanted more answers to it.
To adress Chalice of the Void we already have plenty of bounce / Remand.
Discard can be dealt with Twincast and Disrupt, which both handle the combo matchup aswell.

Concerning the white splash, i agree with Bahamuth here. Another killcondition is not what we are looking for. I i would ever splash a colour it would be either green (prefered) for Krosan Grip or red for Pyroblast.


I like the Idea, but I would rather go for 2x Tundra and no Tropical, because krosan grip has the same effect as wipe away!

Not quite, CB creatly diminishes the possibilitys to shape a suitable hand. Simplified, with Wipe Away you asume to have the 'go-off' hand already and just need to bounce their CB.

[lavafrogg]

Bahamuth: So... if the deck rarely struggles to get a high enough storm count then the deck should be rarely losing... opening yourself up to ee and deed means that they cannot take these cards out and board in more pain.

I agree with you but the matchups that the deck loses horribly are when the storm count cannot be jacked up. In this case I like the option of vommiting tokens onto the tabke at instant speed.

Decree is very similar to hunting pack except that it is easier to cast and can be hardcast or just cycled with available mana. A huge problem with hunting pack was the double green requirement, decree is only a single white mana.

Deadlock: I am splashing white and green, the white brings chants out of the board to help against counters/combo and the green is for grips.

[TheyCallMeTim]

I'd like to see a build with more of a focus on Twincast and Stroke of Genius in a the main board, their synergy is ridiculous. Build up your mana engine, cast Stroke targeting opponent and leave it on the stack as a Twincast target to be used for your own benefit.

4 Tide
4 Reset
3 Turnabout
4 Brainstorm
4 Opt
4 Impulse
3 Meditate
2 Stroke
3 Twincast
1 Flash of Insight
1 Brainfreeze
2 Remand
3 Cunning Wish
4 FOW
18 Land

SB:
1 Stroke
1 Meditate
1 Brainfreeze
1 Flash of Insight
1 Turnabout
10 Meta

Any thoughts on this? How 'bout my super-secret tech: Tolarian Winds? Does it deserve a mainboard position? I really support seeing this become a competitor again.

[Bahamuth]

The fact that opponents are forced to keep their hate in the mainboard isn't a good argument at all. In whatever case the open slots in his deck would be filled with hate in your version, those slots would've either been filled with hate completely, or not completely in the original version. In the first case it would indeed barely matter, but in the second case it would, since the opponent then still has more hate agains you than against me. I doubt many decks will have trouble boarding cards out for more hate, so the second case seems much more likely.

The problem with Hunting Pack requiring GG wasn't that big at all, since the card needed storm anyway. Just as with Decree, you are probably forced to cast an untapper first anyway (or you cast a Decree for like 2 tokens, woohoo). The problems were rather Wasteland and Moon vulnerability, and not drawing into the Pack in time, which will happen to the Decree version just as much.

Don't play Stroke mainboard. The card is way too mana intensive to be used in many occasions. Also, Tolarian Winds is no good, it gives carddisadvantage, and therefore is probably always bad pre-combo.

[TheyCallMeTim]

"Don't play Stroke mainboard. The card is way too mana intensive to be used in many occasions. Also, Tolarian Winds is no good, it gives carddisadvantage, and therefore is probably always bad pre-combo."

Tolarian Winds is the perfect anti-stall. Ditch all those Islands and FOW for some fresh spells, works pre-combo too when you keep a hand you probably shouldn't have or mulliganed too much. Right now, I use it as a Wish target in the SB. Ditch those discarded spells to feed a big FOI, and even Wish 'em back if necessary. Stroke isn't mana intensive when combined with Twincast "pay X2UUU draw 2X cards"!! Add in the ability to change targets and it's almost broken. However, I understand the points you've made. Whatever the case may be making these changes keeps the same mechanics that Solidarity is supposed to have but changes the flavor a little bit. I think it plays nicely as a huge drawing engine (reminds me of the good old days piloting ProsBloom). Try it out and tweak a deck list before you disregard the idea completely. If the deck ever makes a comeback, it certainly won't be the same old thing. The new version were looking for is gonna be significantly different. Look at what adding black did for goblins and belcher....

[Bahamuth]

"Don't play Stroke mainboard. The card is way too mana intensive to be used in many occasions. Also, Tolarian Winds is no good, it gives carddisadvantage, and therefore is probably always bad pre-combo."

Tolarian Winds is the perfect anti-stall. Ditch all those Islands and FOW for some fresh spells, works pre-combo too when you keep a hand you probably shouldn't have or mulliganed too much. Right now, I use it as a Wish target in the SB. Ditch those discarded spells to feed a big FOI, and even Wish 'em back if necessary. Stroke isn't mana intensive when combined with Twincast "pay X2UUU draw 2X cards"!! Add in the ability to change targets and it's almost broken. However, I understand the points you've made. Whatever the case may be making these changes keeps the same mechanics that Solidarity is supposed to have but changes the flavor a little bit. I think it plays nicely as a huge drawing engine (reminds me of the good old days piloting ProsBloom). Try it out and tweak a deck list before you disregard the idea completely. If the deck ever makes a comeback, it certainly won't be the same old thing. The new version were looking for is gonna be significantly different. Look at what adding black did for goblins and belcher....

I could see playing Tolarian Winds as a sideboard card, but certainly not over the SB Meditate. I don't think I would spend a slot on the card, if I can fill my board with other good sideboard material.

For your Stroke plan, you will first of all need a Stroke and a Twincast to make it work. The stroke alone is a really bad draw engine, since it becomes only profitable after drawing more than like 5 cards (over Meditate I mean). I do not feel this deck needs more draw engine, because it will mean more dead cards pre-combo (which Stroke almost always is). Also, Twincasting a Stroke is dangerous, because you immediately lose if the opponent counters the Stroke in response to Twincast.

[TheyCallMeTim]

I could see playing Tolarian Winds as a sideboard card, but certainly not over the SB Meditate. I don't think I would spend a slot on the card, if I can fill my board with other good sideboard material.

Agreed. I currently run Tolarian Winds as a SB Wish Target and 4 Meditates, typically all in the MB. Although, sometimes I put the 4th in the SB, I haven't entirely decided which I prefer.


For your Stroke plan, you will first of all need a Stroke and a Twincast to make it work. The stroke alone is a really bad draw engine, since it becomes only profitable after drawing more than like 5 cards (over Meditate I mean). I do not feel this deck needs more draw engine, because it will mean more dead cards pre-combo (which Stroke almost always is). Also, Twincasting a Stroke is dangerous, because you immediately lose if the opponent counters the Stroke in response to Twincast.

Both cards are good independently (depending on the situation of course, you wouldn't cast Meditate if you needed another turn). The majority of the posters here agree on Stroke as their kill card. I feel that this alone merits at least 1 slot in the MB. I hate it when I find myself needing the Wish and spending the 2U time after time, game after game when facing lethal damage when there's always the chance that 2U will matter (if going off with only 3 island, for example). Twincast is never a dead card as long as spells are being cast. Why wouldn't you target a Meditate (or a FOI for that matter)? And maybe, once in a while, you can pay X2UUU, draw 2X cards, GG. In this event, Brainfreeze simply makes the kill easier. Don't get me wrong though, I completely understand that you want the deck to be more reliable. What build do you run?

[Bahamuth]

Both cards are good independently (depending on the situation of course, you wouldn't cast Meditate if you needed another turn).

I disagree here. Stroke is hardly good on it's own. It usually does nothing more than draw about 3 cards for 6 mana, which is terrible. It really rarely happens that you're able to find enough mana to draw a serious number of cards, let alone Twincast the card.


The majority of the posters here agree on Stroke as their kill card. I feel that this alone merits at least 1 slot in the MB. I hate it when I find myself needing the Wish and spending the 2U time after time, game after game when facing lethal damage when there's always the chance that 2U will matter (if going off with only 3 island, for example).

True. Luckily, we play Turnabout and Cryptic Command, which can both funcion as a 'kill card' as well. It again rarely happens you absolutely have to make your opponent draw a card, and in those occasions, usually you have plenty of time to set it up.



Twincast is never a dead card as long as spells are being cast. Why wouldn't you target a Meditate (or a FOI for that matter)?

Because Twincasting stuff against counters is dangerous. If you play Meditate and Twincast immediately, and they counter the Meditate, both spells fizzle. If you Meditate and wait, and the opponent doesn't counter, you can't Twincast anymore.

I currently run Van Phanels build, which is in the first post, with a couple of changes. I like to play 5 fetch, and I probably cut one of the 2 Cryptic Commands for the 4th Remand.

[jjjoness']

I currently run Van Phanels build, which is in the first post, with a couple of changes. I like to play 5 fetch, and I probably cut one of the 2 Cryptic Commands for the 4th Remand.
Wow. That's exactly what I'm running atm.

[TheyCallMeTim]

So:
5 Fetch
13 Island

4 High Tide
4 Brainstorm
3 Opt
1 Peek
4 Reset
4 Impulse
4 Remand
2 Brain Freeze
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
3 Turnabout
1 Cryptic Command
4 Force of Will
2 Flash of Insight

SB:
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Tolarian Winds
2 Wipe Away
2 Echoing Truth
2 Hydroblast
2 Twincast
1 Rebuild
1 Hurkyl's Recall

Is this the current optimum build? Why was it decided to forget about Hunting Pack or other splash solutions? I understand running mono blue but haven't tried these other builds. Does anyone have stats on this: mana curve, average # turns, etc.? Do we gain anything from Conflux or Shards? Thanks for all the info, just want to continue to develop the deck?

[Bahamuth]

So:
5 Fetch
13 Island

4 High Tide
4 Brainstorm
3 Opt
1 Peek
4 Reset
4 Impulse
4 Remand
2 Brain Freeze
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
3 Turnabout
1 Cryptic Command
4 Force of Will
2 Flash of Insight

SB:
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Tolarian Winds
2 Wipe Away
2 Echoing Truth
2 Hydroblast
2 Twincast
1 Rebuild
1 Hurkyl's Recall

Is this the current optimum build? Why was it decided to forget about Hunting Pack or other splash solutions? I understand running mono blue but haven't tried these other builds. Does anyone have stats on this: mana curve, average # turns, etc.? Do we gain anything from Conflux or Shards? Thanks for all the info, just want to continue to develop the deck?

I don't know wether it is the optimum build. The mainboard has been the same for literally years barring a few changes. My sideboard is usually something like this:

1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Stroke
2 Brain Freeze
3 Twincast
1 Rebuild
3 Wipe Away
3 Echoing Truth

I don't feel my meta demands running Hydroblast. In the occasion I might run into Goblins, I'll usually be able to get away with the Echoing Truths. 2 Brain Freeze is personal preference.

Solidarity really has no average turn, since it always wins (or not) when it has to, not when it's able to. Soonest reliable turn is 4, as most will know. Just goldfishing, you're ultimately looking for 4 Island, High Tide, Reset and Meditate (+1/2 other usefull cards). That usually gets you going.

As far as I'm concerned, we don't gain anything from the latest sets at all, besides Cryptic Command.

I might consider trying out 4 Cunning Wish and 3 Tide, but I doubt it will do any good really.

[TheyCallMeTim]

I don't know whether it is the optimum build. The mainboard has been the same for literally years barring a few changes.

My current build goes back before Cryptic Command and even Remand. I've been away from the game for a while (seems to happen often) and recently decided to revisit Solidarity. I really like the Remand/Brainfreeze tech. When not targeting Brainfreeze, do you find the extra counter helpful?


Solidarity really has no average turn, since it always wins (or not) when it has to, not when it's able to. Soonest reliable turn is 4, as most will know. Just goldfishing, you're ultimately looking for 4 Island, High Tide, Reset and Meditate (+1/2 other usefull cards). That usually gets you going.

Understood, however strictly speaking about combo consistency, what's the soonest, average turn your able to goldfish? Do you ever attempt on turn 3 (or maybe even 2), possibly when facing aggro?


I might consider trying out 4 Cunning Wish and 3 Tide, but I doubt it will do any good really.

Like the idea but it seems expensive at 2UU.

Why Peek? I run 4 Opt.

My build still looks like this:
4 Brainstorm
4 Opt
4 Impulse
4 Meditate
3 Flash of Insight (sometimes trade 1x for Stroke in SB)
1 Stroke of Genius

2 Brainfreeze
2 Twincast
3 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will

4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Turnabout

5 Fetch
13 Island

Sideboard:
2 Brainfreeze
1 Tolarian Winds
1 Stroke of Genius (sometimes traded for 1x FOI in MB)
1 Turnabout

1 Chain of Vapor (Useless when running CC, good Wish target though)
1 Stifle (Belcher, Mirror Match, etc.)
1 Words of wisdom (Cheap kill card, would like to test a few MB)
1 Mana Short (Any deck running the best card ever: Island)
1 Rebuild
1 Evacuation (See Chain of Vapor)
4 Hydroblast (Unlike others, I see alot of Red in my meta)

Yeah, I know, it's a little old school. Definitely needs some tweaking. I've been eying Cryptic Command, Remand and the previously mentioned mainboard Words of Wisdom. I understand the controversy surrounding my card choices but I believe all ideas deserve some play testing. My current build is focused on heavy draw/quick goldfish, especially when throwing in the extra Stroke. However, I like the idea of throwing in Remand and Cryptic Command for a combo/control feel. Reminds me of Fruity Pebbles. Any thoughts? It'd be nice to hear from Deep6er, but it appears he can't log on too often.

[Bahamuth]

I can assure you 3 Flash of Insight is too much. Seeing them in multiples is the worst thing that can happen, and I'm sometimes not even happy seeing just one. The card is very strong though, if you're able to cast it for 1 before comboing.

Remand serves as much as 3 purposes in this deck:
1) Brain Freeze + Remand
2) Delaying the opponent
3) Pulling counters (You cast a spell (High Tide for example), he counters, you Remand the High Tide, drawing a card and thus producing cardadvantage. You can try to go off again next turn)

The main reason for not playing 4 Remand is that it's pretty bad against Thresh, since none of their cards are really worth Remanding.

[TheyCallMeTim]

I can assure you 3 Flash of Insight is too much. Seeing them in multiples is the worst thing that can happen, and I'm sometimes not even happy seeing just one. The card is very strong though, if you're able to cast it for 1 before comboing.

Yeah, I like the -1 FOI, + 1 Stroke configuration but we already went there.


Remand serves as much as 3 purposes in this deck:
1) Brain Freeze + Remand
2) Delaying the opponent
3) Pulling counters (You cast a spell (High Tide for example), he counters, you Remand the High Tide, drawing a card and thus producing cardadvantage. You can try to go off again next turn)

The main reason for not playing 4 Remand is that it's pretty bad against Thresh, since none of their cards are really worth Remanding.

I'm looking at how to incorporate Remand at this point. I still see a different focus though. There may be an ideal 'controlidarity' build and a 'speedidarity' build.

[Jade]

I have to say that I liked Remand quite a bit lately against Thresh, allthough there really aren't that many good targets. Maybe I was just lucky, but remanding a Counterbalance gave me more than once the turn I needed to go off (or the turn to draw Force for it...). Also, Thresh feels like an incredibly close MU and if you have to go off fast and through a counter or two its a godsend if you only have to reach half of the stormcount. I used to board in Twincasts here, but they seem to perform underwhelming against the balanced lists.

Regarding my build, I run Van Phanels list with -1 cryptic command +1 Twincast main, with a slightly different sideboard.

[TheyCallMeTim]

Regarding my build, I run Van Phanels list with -1 cryptic command +1 Twincast main, with a slightly different sideboard.

And only 3 Remand? How does everyone feel about Words of Wisdom? No card advantage but it's like a super cantrip and is a MB kill card. See, I feel it's necessary to MB a condition if we are to wait for lethal damage. Do you usually respond before moving into the Combat phase, Declare Attackers or as early as the Draw step to deny them a Main phase all together?

[Bahamuth]

And only 3 Remand? How does everyone feel about Words of Wisdom? No card advantage but it's like a super cantrip and is a MB kill card. See, I feel it's necessary to MB a condition if we are to wait for lethal damage. Do you usually respond before moving into the Combat phase, Declare Attackers or as early as the Draw step to deny them a Main phase all together?

We already have a mainboard kill card, Turnabout. You'll be using it much more than the Stroke.

There's no point in denying them a main phase, since it can only lead to them giving you more storm. I generally either wait for a dangerous card to go off, or already start in the upkeep. You can't play Reset in the upkeep though, but you can float mana into the draw phase. The point of going off in the upkeep, and continuing in the draw phase is that the opponent won't get to draw his card untill you're already far into the combo, or even finished it. If you manage to Freeze his deck away in the upkeep, he obviously has to draw a card afterwards.

Words of Wisdom has been discussed and dismissed plenty of times. I'd advise you to look through the old Solidairty threat (although it's loooong).

[TheyCallMeTim]

We already have a mainboard kill card, Turnabout. You'll be using it much more than the Stroke.

True.


The point of going off in the upkeep, and continuing in the draw phase is that the opponent won't get to draw his card untill you're already far into the combo, or even finished it. If you manage to Freeze his deck away in the upkeep, he obviously has to draw a card afterwards.

I like that idea, I used to get by with just Turnabout (waaaayyy back in the day). Might as well try it.


Words of Wisdom has been discussed and dismissed plenty of times. I'd advise you to look through the old Solidairty threat (although it's loooong).

Yeah, I'm looking at it now actually. I followed it up until last year. Haven't found much on Words though. I'll be attending a local tournament on Friday so hopefully I can post an optimum list before than. Of course I'll post results here as well. Looking forward to seeing results from GP Chicago, don't have the money to go myself. Anyone planning on piloting Solidarity there?

Good night, it's 4am on the US's east coast.

[Jade]

Well, WoWisdom was discussed mainly as a wishable kill card and as said, most of the time you'll kill with turnabout or if you have some mana and a wish left with stroke. If you won't use it as a kill card its a bad card-drawer, why play this if you could have Peer Trough Depths instead? And even Peer Through Depths doesn't make into most lists.

Yes, only 3 Remand at the moment, but I wouldn't be unhappy about a 4th. The twincast is just personal preference, it did some crazy things for me and I hope it will keep doing this. I can understand anybody who cut it, though. Its either the nuts or pure fresh shit. It just tends to be the nuts if I draw it :tongue:

I try to go off EOT most of the time, with the hope that they tap out and add to the stormcount. Also its much more comfortable to go off the turn before you have to turnabout his creatures. Bahamuth you got a valid point there and I probably should go off in the upkeep more often (at least against the better players who know that they don't have to play anything if it isn't speeding up their clock). I guess it depends on their deck and how high the chances are that they'll draw a relevant card. Against thresh for example, wouldn't you wait to see if they tap for ponder?

[Bahamuth]

Against thresh for example, wouldn't you wait to see if they tap for ponder?

Depends. If you're on lethal, always try as much as possible in the upkeep. No smart opponent will play something, and especially not a Ponder, if they can just kil you. If you're not on lethal, I'd probably wait in most occasions.

[TheyCallMeTim]

Other than FoW on Tendrils of Agony, do we have a chance against ANT? And what if they play Pact of Negation? How do we force them into another turn? I understand that we have instant speed and complete stack control, but they have a 1 or 2 turn clock.

[J.V.]

Other than FoW on Tendrils of Agony, do we have a chance against ANT? And what if they play Pact of Negation? How do we force them into another turn? I understand that we have instant speed and complete stack control, but they have a 1 or 2 turn clock.

Storm still triggers if you counter the card with storm. You should try to buy as much time as you can with your remands and try to counter Ad Nauseam if possible.

Post side Twincasting Ad Nauseam and is usually the easiest way to race them since you can just win in response to them.

[TheyCallMeTim]

Storm still triggers if you counter the card with storm. You should try to buy as much time as you can with your remands and try to counter Ad Nauseam if possible.

No sh!t!! Don't know how I forgot about that. Do we respond to one of their draw spells with a lethal Brainfreeze? If only they were stupid enough. I guess the only thing on our side is that they run mostly sorceries.


Post side Twincasting Ad Nauseam and is usually the easiest way to race them since you can just win in response to them.

Does Ad Nauseam really help us out that much? I heard Gearhart was planning a Solidarity build with Black splash. Never played this match before but it almost seems like an auto-loss to me. I see a banning in the near future. I can't believe Frantic Search is illegal while WOTC continues to print crazy brokeness.

[Bahamuth]

ANT is about 50-50. Twincast on both Chant and Duress is huge.

[ParkerLewis]

Does Ad Nauseam really help us out that much? I heard Gearhart was planning a Solidarity build with Black splash. Never played this match before but it almost seems like an auto-loss to me. I see a banning in the near future. I can't believe Frantic Search is illegal while WOTC continues to print crazy brokeness.

How is Ad Nauseam "crazy broken" if it's not even in DtB status ?

[Zinch]

:frown: The Day 2 Metagame breakdown is now in magicthegathering.com and there's no Solidarity on it...
I'm very dissapointed

[Bahamuth]

:frown: The Day 2 Metagame breakdown is now in magicthegathering.com and there's no Solidarity on it...
I'm very dissapointed

I didn't expect any really.

I played a 56-man tournament yesterday. I went 5-0-1 in the swiss rounds and lost my first top 8 match.

[TheyCallMeTim]

How is Ad Nauseam "crazy broken" if it's not even in DtB status ?

Necropotence, Yawgmoth's Bargain and now an instant-speed version? Seriously, maybe no one has been able to build a deck to take (enough) advantage of it but it is certainly more broken than Frantic Search. Unbanning our lowly draw spell just might make Solidarity tier 1 again. Simply resolving Ad Nauseam is game over most of the time, on turn 1 no less!! If that's not broken I don't know what is. So back to the question at hand: can we abuse it enough in Solidarity?

[Fons]

Did anyone play this at the GP?

[Citrus-God]

Necropotence, Yawgmoth's Bargain and now an instant-speed version? Seriously, maybe no one has been able to build a deck to take (enough) advantage of it but it is certainly more broken than Frantic Search. Unbanning our lowly draw spell just might make Solidarity tier 1 again. Simply resolving Ad Nauseam is game over most of the time, on turn 1 no less!! If that's not broken I don't know what is. So back to the question at hand: can we abuse it enough in Solidarity?

I'm probably the only person to think that Twincast is amazing in this deck. Oh, and Twincast is bomb against Ad Nauseam.

[Fons]

I'm probably the only person to think that Twincast is amazing in this deck. Oh, and Twincast is bomb against Ad Nauseam.

I like twincast alot in this deck it's very versitile and it usually replaces remand for me against thresh. It's great for copying orim's chant as well.

[Bahamuth]

I'm probably the only person to think that Twincast is amazing in this deck. Oh, and Twincast is bomb against Ad Nauseam.

It is amazing, just not mainboard, since it'll be too dead in many matchups. I've always played 2-3 SB.

This deck can't abuse AdN, since the card's engine goes against the principle of the deck. This deck is built to wait untill it's at low life before comboing.

[Fons]

It is amazing, just not mainboard, since it'll be too dead in many matchups. I've always played 2-3 SB.

This deck can't abuse AdN, since the card's engine goes against the principle of the deck. This deck is built to wait untill it's at low life before comboing.

I've been playing 1 maindeck instead of 2 Flash of Insight and it has been working great, I've found that running into doubles of Flash of insight is clunky while the one twincast usually shows up when i need it.

Has anyone been trying a splash just for the wishboard, if so what color for what cards?

[ParkerLewis]

Seriously, maybe no one has been able to build a deck to take (enough) advantage of it

It hasn't been broken, so it's not broken. Point made. Moving on...

Frantic Search is risky. I have no idea if it would be pushing Solidarity over the top, though. Counterbalance and al are still format defining cards.

[Illuvator Brightstar]

I've been playing 1 maindeck instead of 2 Flash of Insight and it has been working great, I've found that running into doubles of Flash of insight is clunky while the one twincast usually shows up when i need it.

Has anyone been trying a splash just for the wishboard, if so what color for what cards?

Most the splash talk I've read are usually either:

Green for Krosan Grip

White for Chant

And usually folks end up reaching the same conclusion, that it's not worth making the deck vulnerable to wasteland et al for the small benefit that's gained.

But I could be out of date :)

[Zinch]

It don't think this has changed... wasteland is very common in this days metagame and this deck needs to play a land each turn, at least until the fourth

[TheyCallMeTim]

I've been playing 1 maindeck instead of 2 Flash of Insight and it has been working great, I've found that running into doubles of Flash of insight is clunky while the one twincast usually shows up when i need it.

Has anyone been trying a splash just for the wishboard, if so what color for what cards?

I certainly agree with finding room for a twincast or two. However, there was a question earlier regarding how many copies of Brainfreeze are needed to target yourself with in order to reach a Flash of Insight and stack your library. Probability tells us that if there are 2 in the library then one must be in the top half (If you have already drawn one you shouldn't need to freeze yourself). Therefore, copies of BF = 1/3*{[(Graveyard + Library)/2]-Graveyard}. This is not possible with only 1 Flash.

[Mikeleroi]

What about white splash for Angel´s grace? If the other isn´t playing any sparks, it gives one more turn. It has split second, and just costs W, so one island could be a tundra and it´s enough

[Zinch]

I'm sorry, but what this deck needs is not a turn more (if that was the case, there are plenty of options in blue without needing a splash), what it needs is a reliable way of dealing with aggro control decks like thresh.

[TheyCallMeTim]

Is Cryptic Command really necessary in the deck? What does it do for us (other than the obvious versatility)? I'm planning on running the following list this Friday (don't have the money for CC's):

4 Opt
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
4 Impulse
2 Flash of Insight
3 Meditate
1 Stroke of Genius
--------------
4 Force of Will
4 Remand
2 Brain Freeze
--------------
4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Turnabout
--------------
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
13 Island

[Citrus-God]

It is amazing, just not mainboard, since it'll be too dead in many matchups. I've always played 2-3 SB.


I highly doubt it. You can combo off more consistently on Turn 4 with Twincast compared to Remand.

As for Ad Nauseam, I think it's safer to play Twincast rather than Ad Nauseam.

[TheyCallMeTim]

Sideboard:
1 Stifle
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Tolarian Winds
1 Words of Wisdom
1 Meditate
1 Rebuild
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
2 Twincast
1 Wipe Away
1 Brainfreeze
1 Flash of Insight
1 Evacuation
1 Mana Short

[TheyCallMeTim]

I could run Gearhart's build, replacing Cryptic Command with Twincast? -Stroke of Genius + 2 Twincast (he plays 61 cards). Though I like the idea of having a Stroke available when there's a Twincast in hand.....

[Taurelin]

Is Cryptic Command really necessary in the deck? What does it do for us (other than the obvious versatility)?

It bounces Counterbalance AND is versatile enough to be maindecked. No other card fulfills both roles.

[Citrus-God]

I could run Gearhart's build, replacing Cryptic Command with Twincast? -Stroke of Genius + 2 Twincast (he plays 61 cards). Though I like the idea of having a Stroke available when there's a Twincast in hand.....

Gearhart runs 60 cards. He only ran 1 Twincast maindeck.

[Bahamuth]

I highly doubt it. You can combo off more consistently on Turn 4 with Twincast compared to Remand.

As for Ad Nauseam, I think it's safer to play Twincast rather than Ad Nauseam.

Yes, but Twincast can't be viewed as a combo piece. First of all it won't do anything on itself, because you need to already have the card you want to copy. It's also pretty important that you can be 2-for-1'd with Twincast pretty easily. Remand is there to help slow the game down, which Twincast can't do. Comboing out earlier or stretching the game is essentially the same.

[Van Phanel]

Sorry I couldn't contribute anything to the latest discussion, but my internet at home is broken and as there are holidays, I usually don't have the chance to be online at university.


In the last weeks I had two very interesting tournaments (even if not succesful), so I'll write brief reports and talk about my conclusions afterwards.
If you don't care for the reports you can also skip them.



My list for both events:

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
6 Island
6 Snow-covered Island

4 High Tide
4 Brainstorm
3 Opt
1 Peek
4 Reset
4 Impulse
3 Remand
2 Brain Freeze
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
3 Turnabout
2 Cryptic Command
4 Force of Will
2 Flash of Insight

SB:
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
2 Wipe Away
2 Echoing Truth
1 Repeal
2 Twincast
3 Disrupt
1 Rebuild
1 Mystical Tutor



GP Hannover sideevent (77 players), 7 rounds of swiss:



round 1: Mono-U control.

A Bye basically. In game 1 I kill him easily and I don't remember if I managed to bounce his Chalice/1 in game 2 or won right through it.
1-0

round 2: Zoo.

He wins game 1 on the play thanks to me not finding High Tide. I win game 2 on the play with a turn 4 kill, because he topdecks another Kird Ape when instant-burn would have killed me and I win game 3 as he starts with Kird Ape and Vexing Shusher but doesn't have a forest.
2-0

round 3: ANT

I don't know what he plays and keep a hand without protection so he Duresses me once and then goes off with Chant + Ad Nauseam on turn two or three. Only on three life does he find the LED to go hellbent with Infernal Tutor.

In game 2 I keep Brainstorm FoW and Twincast and he starts with Duress. I Brainstorm Twincast and FoW on top and when I Twincast his second Duress it becomes obvious that he won't win this game unless for a series of topdecks on his side. He doesn't do so and at some point I simply show a hand of Command, 2 FoW and enough pitchcards and he concedes.

In game 3 he mulligands and keeps six cards. I simply keep my seven without any disruption, but with a lot of cantrips as he was likely going to have a Duress-effect anyway (he had shown both Duress and Thoughtseize in earlier games). The gamble pays off as he Duresses me and doesn't see anything relevant. I cantrip into FoW rather early and so I'm able to deal with his Xantid Swarm. When a Peek shows nothing but a single Ad Nauseam, I am sure to win and with another Swarm waiting for declare attackers I do so.
3-0

round 4: Mono-Red Goblins:

I lately seem to lose to goblins a lot and that didn't change... I win game 1 off FoW + Remand on like turn six, he wins game 2 of Lackey and in game 3 I seem to be in a good position thanks to a turn2 Repeal on his Vial but when he still goes for the turn 5 and has triple (yes, really) REB, I can't win.
3-1

round 5: FEB (seriously):

He starts with birds and Survival + Quirion Ranger, but makes the mistake of playing an island on turn three. This stops him from survivaling one more time and he can't get Phage for the kill right away, but deals only six with Akroma. The turn later I go off with three lands in play and Force for his Mana Leak with (nonlethal) damage on stack as Brain Freezing his library takes the Phage-trigger away from his Shifter.

in the second game he has one land and Quirion Ranger, then Wall of Roots (I FoW pitching Brain Freeze, he FoWs back), then Survival but no other creatures. I expect a lot of counters but also a lot of time. At some point he has an Enlightened Tutor for Arcane Lab, but I have my other Brain Freeze ready. I walk a Cunning Wish into a Mana Leak to draw a counter and at some point he gets a Shifter into play. I walk another Cunning Wish into another Mana Leak, untap and go for the combo as he's tapped out. After playing like ten spells, he asks me if I have the Brain Freeze (his Shifter was already bounced) and I go on to combo, maka a lot of mana and talk him into conceding with the Flash for my whole library. He concedes and proceeds to get angry with himself when I tell him that I didn't have any winoption left as I always board one Wish out when on the draw against other combodecks.
4-1

round 6: Baseruption (Loam and Mox Diamond instead of Chome Mox)

This is unfortunately a rather short story. He lands turn two Confidant in game and turn three Confidant in game 2 (I had a FoW for his turn 2 Confidant) and they kill me by drawing a mix of disruption and beats. Especially his Vendilion Cliques were rather annoying.
4-2

round 7: NQG/w.

A massacre (but not the way you'd expect). In game 1 he starts with Mongoose and Goyf and I kill him in response to a Ponder on turn six or so.

In game 2 he has turn 2 and 3 Counterbalance but I ignore them. He plays a Werebear that deals six damage over six turns and then goes for Top. In response I play Brainstorm and he shows me Gaddock Teeg on top (one Fetchland in play). He decides to let my Brainstorm resolve and I play High Tide. He lets that resolve as well and I proceed to combo aroud his virtual Chalice/2. At some point I Repeal one of his Balances and Command the other and the rest is easy.

5-2

Not a great result but I can live with it.




Legacy Kempten: 22 players (7 rounds of swiss (they always do that), 45 minute rounds):



round 1: Merfolk.

He doesn't know what I play and keeps a slow hand with Merrow Reejerey as his first play. I have a Remand and combo through 3 FoW on turn seven.

In g2 he starts with a lord and then Thorn of Amethyst. I have to go off with High Tide, Reset, some spells, then Wish-> Echoing Truth on four lands but then lack one mana for Brain Freezing myself and I don't find another untap. He shows the Gaea's Blessing that I wouldn't have cared for with that mana.

Because of the very long second game (try comboing under Thorn: it is hard) we don't even get to start game 3 and have a draw.

0-0-1

round 2: Landstill

Pretty much the bye that it should be. I win game 1 uncontested and his 11 sideboardcards aren't all that threatening as Angel's Grace doesn't do anything (he thought it helps against Tendrils). He lands two Meddling Mages but Peek shows that my Echoing Truth will resolve and I finish him off.

1-0-1

round 3: NQG/w

He starts game 1 with Ponder, then CB, then Top. At some point I go for Cunning Wish when he is tapped out and he counters it at random with a Rhox War Monk). I am desperate to run a few testspells but he always has the right card ready on top including a second cmc1 card when putting his Top on top would still have cost him the game.

In game 2 he has Top + CB again but can't stop me from playing a Wipe Away for the win (he had Needled Delta while I had two Flooded Strand as lands 2 and 3).

In game three he has another Counterbalance but at least no Top. When he finds it after some turns of Mongoose-beatdown for 1, I try to FoW and he reveals FoW on top (at random). I go for it in response to Top and after using his only Fetchland he reveals cmc0 and I win.
2-0-1

round 4: Dreadstill

Game 1 starts with him playing an early Dreadnought with double FoW-backup. I manage to get a lethal Brain Freeze on turn 5 pust that but unfortunately my backup FoW can't deal with his Trickbind.

In game 2 he lands an early Standstill and I have to break it because of a lack of lands. Luckily I Brainstorm into three lands. When he has another Standstill I gladly use the chance to get up two 7 lands in play without having to fear CB or Nought. After some turns of him hitting with a Factory I play an Opt and wait for him to discard. The turn later he plays CB and I go off in response. He decides to go for my carddraw, but he misannounces his mana so he doesn't have red mana floating after Brainstorming into REB which means that I just so manage to win past three counters where the fourth would have killed me. The timeout is called and I have another draw.
2-0-2

round 5: Thrash

He has a 1/2 Goyf as only source of damage and I get up to 10 lands in play (and another one in hand) unfortunately without finding a Brainstorm or Flash of Insight. When I go for it he can counter twice and that is enough as I only have two drawspells.

In game 2 he gets to Stifle a landdrop and Red Blasts/ Spell Snares/ Dazes all my tries to find a third land while a Mongoose tries to kill me. I do find land just in time but only have one Meditate and one Twincast while I know from Peek that he holds FoW and Spell Snare resulting in my loss for the day.
2-1-2

round 6: B-G-w Survival

A bit harder than you'd expect. In game one he Duresses me on turn one taking my High Tide and then killing me via some guys before I find another one. In game 2 he does nothing except playing an early Gaddock Teeg. On seven life I go of putting three Meditate on the stack to play aroung Extirpate. He Chants me in response and I take six manaburn. Luckily the 12 card included another Tide so I could easily go off again.

In game 3 he Duresses me on turn 2 but I have Brainstorm ready. on my turn 3 I play Cunning Wish-> Stroke and on turn five I play High Tide, Reset, Stroke for 13. two turns later he is dead.
3-1-2

round 7: dredge

A really hard matchup for the last match but it should include the best game that I had all day. In game 1 I keep a hand of 2 Tide, 2 Reset, Meditate and Opt. He is on the play and starts with Putrid Imp, I draw Remand and Opt into a second land. On his turn 2 he has a Careful study that doesn't show anything relevant and I topdeck the third Tide. When he goes for the throat with a Breakthrough on turn three I decide that I can't wait any longer and go off in response (2 lands in play):

High Tide, Reset, High Tide, High Tide, Reset, Meditate (draw Peek, Brainstorm, land, Turnabout), Peek (draw land), Brainstorm (draw Command, Land, Wish, put two lands back), play Turnabout (1 floating, 8 open). Now I couldn't play Wish for Mystical, Remand the Breakthrough and Brain Freeze him as he hadn't attacked yet and would simply kill me. I also couldn't use the Command to draw that card as I didn't have enough mana. As he had a Therapy that he hadn't used (he wanted to keep his Putrid Imp), my only hope was that he wouldn't dredge a Moeba, attack me and then flashbakc his Therapy and in fact it worked out. He dredged two Bridges and a second Therapy but decided to attack before using them so I could Wish -> Mystical -> Brain Freeze, Remand his Therapy and Brain Freeze him to death.

My first turn-2-kill with Solidarity was done.

In game 2 he has another Putrid Imp. I do have the FoW but can't stop his Breakthrough and the following Coliseum finishes me off.

In game 3 we don't have much time left so we hurry and get into the turns. He gets some dredgers only but at some point has them all in hand with 8 tokens (I am on 17) in play. He attacks me for one and the turn after that, I have to go off. I play High Tide, reset, Meditate but don't find any spells but a single Echoing Truth that clears the board. Without any dredgers he can't find another source of damage in the next two turns and we would draw. as he is a teammate standing 4-2, I concede so he finishes third place but the match by itself would have been a draw.
3-1-3

An extremly strange result but with the usual 50-minute rounds it would likely have been either 5-2 or 4-3.



Summary: I lost three matches, one of them to extremly bad draw against NQG/r which is not that bad of a matchup, one match against Goblins with disruption and one match against Dark Confidant. And Dark Confidant is exactly the topic that I wanted to talk about. This leads me to my question for today: is there any viable solution for cheap creatures aside from Force of Will? I don't know any. I'm currently thinking of Dark Confidant and Goblin Lackey primarily and of Xantid Swarm, Gaddock Teeg, Ethersworn Canonist, Glowrider and Meddling Mage (in no particular order) secondarily and there might be more that I have forgotten.


About Cryptic Command because that came up:
Testing and gut feeling combined show that a number of roughly 1.5 would be perfect for the deck. Unfortunately you can only play a natural number meaning that both one or two are viable. Currently I'm still leaning to two.


and one more thing: I really like the one sideboarded Repeal as you can use it as fake Wipe Away against CB while it can be boarded against any deck that has a target. Unfortunately it doesn't answer Gaddock Teeg and Thorn of Amethyst very well but I like it against any deck with discard as it buys time without losing a card which generally favours us. Not the perfect solution but I like 2 Wipe away, 1 Repeal way more than I like 3 Wipe Away.

- Van

[Citrus-God]

@Match vs. Dreadstill: If you were holding a Remand in hand, you know you can Remand your Brain Freeze after a Trickbind "stifles" your storm right? It's because the real copy is still on the stack if the storm fizzles.

[Bahamuth]

I've emphasized this before. Confidant is fucking terrible when it lands against you turn 2. You basically need to have an answer right then, or you need to win like 2 turns later max. Otherwise the opponent will overwhelm you with hate. I can think of exactly one blue answer to creatures, which is prettty much mediocre at best: Force Spike. I belive it has been tested before, and it seems like a pretty decent answer against Goblins and Thresh at the same time.

You could splash to white for StP, but this is probably crap. You'll die to Goblins just as hard.

I've been running 1 Cryptic Command. My reasoning is that I simply don't want to see them in multiples or in combination with other slow cards like FoI and Wish.

Comboing under Thorn is hard indeed, but pretty doable nontheless. It's similar to Trinisphere.

[GGoober]

I'm starting to wonder if Solidarity can afford just to run 1 Plains, 3 Tundras for inclusion of Chants MD and STP in the side. We risk Wasteland and Stifles, but the latter is much easier to play against now. Stifle has changed the way we grab lands, but many people are playing against it and it has lost some popularity. Wasteland is a problem, but we can fetch a Plains if we're that scared (I would not recommend it) but I think that 4 Chant MD would give the deck a much better chance to fight through some hate.

Imagine the situation where you go. Land, Pass, Land, Chant, Land, combo off.
I haven't tested out the list yet but it seems that to fight through hate, you have to do what ANT does, with a combination of Duress + Chant. For Solidarity, we cannot afford 3 colors, but maybe UW is good.

[Funky-kun]

I'm starting to wonder if Solidarity can afford just to run 1 Plains, 3 Tundras for inclusion of Chants MD and STP in the side. We risk Wasteland and Stifles, but the latter is much easier to play against now. Stifle has changed the way we grab lands, but many people are playing against it and it has lost some popularity. Wasteland is a problem, but we can fetch a Plains if we're that scared (I would not recommend it) but I think that 4 Chant MD would give the deck a much better chance to fight through some hate.

Imagine the situation where you go. Land, Pass, Land, Chant, Land, combo off.
I haven't tested out the list yet but it seems that to fight through hate, you have to do what ANT does, with a combination of Duress + Chant. For Solidarity, we cannot afford 3 colors, but maybe UW is good.

Well, chant doesn't help against CB, and in your example you lose a potential answer to a counter in the place of chant. Chant would be better as an answer to combo than anything else IMO. It also isn't very good maindeck, because it doesn't do anything midcombo. I suppose you already knew that, but this combined with wasteland vulnerability seems enough to forget the card.



is there any viable solution for cheap creatures aside from Force of Will? I don't know any. I'm currently thinking of Dark Confidant and Goblin Lackey primarily and of Xantid Swarm, Gaddock Teeg, Ethersworn Canonist, Glowrider and Meddling Mage (in no particular order) secondarily and there might be more that I have forgotten.


Out of the above mentioned Piracy Charms answers 4. It has some very doubtful discard-ability, but it might be helpful if the opponent is holding counters/stifles only.

[ParkerLewis]

This leads me to my question for today: is there any viable solution for cheap creatures aside from Force of Will? I don't know any. I'm currently thinking of Dark Confidant and Goblin Lackey primarily and of Xantid Swarm, Gaddock Teeg, Ethersworn Canonist, Glowrider and Meddling Mage (in no particular order) secondarily and there might be more that I have forgotten.

I'm not a Solidarity player, and feel free to trash me on this, but what about threads of disloyalty ?

The effect of the last four mentioned creatures are still active - but the first three main ones are dealt with (and two of them might actively help you).

Also, even if it doesn't deal with the last four effects, it still means you can use these creatures as blockers - meaning you can simply use them as cannon fodder if your opponent attacks you (also while gaining tempo by stopping an attack). And if your opponent isn't attacking you... then you're the deck with inevitability, right ?

Finally, the random "oops i just stole your goyf/naught" is always three fourths of a GG, either by direct attacking power or simple defense/time earned to set up the combo.

So yeah, it's not an instant whatever (basically only means you won't be using it mid-combo, which you wouldn't have been able to do against any of the aforementioned lock pieces except MM anyway), but apart from that, it actually seems like not such a bad idea at all.

[Zinch]

I'm thinking on testing 3 MD repeals as a solution to the actual metagame: against counterbalance is cc3, so is dificult to counter, and it solves any permanent problem or is a tempo boost like remand: you can gain a turn bouncing a goyf, Lackey, Terrevore or dark confidant or you can bounce thorn, trinisphere, cannonist, chalice at 2 (lame that at 1 is unplayable) and in mid combo is almost never a dead card (is a expensive cantrip, but at least is not dead... if it is dead, you won't be comboing anyway...).
Maybe is because I like the control-combo feel this deck has (that's the reason I love remand in this deck and I play 4 of them). I see repeal as a pseudo-remand for the modern times.

[marit]

I'm pretty sure Gearheart was messing around with a red splash way back when. Red gives access to Starstorm, Sudden Shock, Rack and Ruin, and even REB, to deal with Counterbalance. The drawback of the splash, is ofcourse, more stifle and wasteland vulnerability.

[Bahamuth]

I won't be splashing anytime soon. Currently, there are so many decks that pack a mana denial plan, I really don't want to walk into that.

I'm still so unsure on the viability of running non-instant cards in the mainboard. Threads is a very powerfull card indeed, but boarding it it will undoubtly decrease our combo potential.

[Taurelin]

I'm pretty sure Gearheart was messing around with a red splash way back when. Red gives access to Starstorm, Sudden Shock, Rack and Ruin, and even REB, to deal with Counterbalance.

The reason for that was, however, not Counterbalance but Meddling Mage. This does no longer describe the current metagame.

Vs Counterbalance the most effective solution is probably Krosan Grip.

[matelml]

I won't be splashing anytime soon. Currently, there are so many decks that pack a mana denial plan, I really don't want to walk into that.

I'm still so unsure on the viability of running non-instant cards in the mainboard. Threads is a very powerfull card indeed, but boarding it it will undoubtly decrease our combo potential.

Yes, but so do Wipe Away, Echoing Truth, Blue Blast, Divert, etc. It doesn't really matter those are instants when you are midcombo.
About a splash: You are already running fetchlands, it's possible to add 1 Trop (or other U dual) to the Sb along with the card you want to splash for. Like Grip. In MU's you want Grip, you usually don't face Wasteland, except for Dreadstill. It's not very uncommon for ANT decks.

[Van Phanel]

@Match vs. Dreadstill: If you were holding a Remand in hand, you know you can Remand your Brain Freeze after a Trickbind "stifles" your storm right? It's because the real copy is still on the stack if the storm fizzles.

Of course. Unfortunately I didn't have a Remand or enough mana to combo on.


@Bahamuth: Actually this is very true. I have to admit that I fear Confidant way more than I fear CB, simply because CB doesn't put us on a clock.


@ParkerLewis: I thought about Threads of Disloyalty, but actually three mana is too much as a single hit of Lackey is enough and decks with Confidant tend to play Daze as well.


@matelml: Wipe Away and Echoing Truth can still bounce a Thorn of Amethyst, Trinisphere, Meddling Mage or whatever some spells into the combo, so the comparison isn't quite viable. If Threads would cost two mana, I would consider it, but three? Impossible.

About Grip: to be honest I don't care about Counterbalance anymore (aside from the current bounce arsenal which helps very much). It might be a matter of playstyle but I haven't lost a match to CB in ages (games yes, but rarely two in a row).


- Van

PS: Yay working internet.

PPS: Has anybody got a foil Polluted Delta or a foil Rebuild for trade or sale? These are my last missing foils for the deck.

[TheyCallMeTim]

Sorry I couldn't contribute anything to the latest discussion, but my internet at home is broken and as there are holidays, I usually don't have the chance to be online at university.


Yeah, I'm in the same boat now too (currently using a camus connection).

I know I might be off topic at this point, but I wanted to respond to a comment made 2 days ago in regard to our Twincast/Cryptic Command discussion:


Gearhart runs 60 cards. He only ran 1 Twincast maindeck.

Not according to: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=24037

This appears to be the common build now. I like Van's iteration that cuts it down to 60 cards (-1 Remand). If I can get my hand on the CCs I'll be running it that way.

[Shimster]

Not according to:http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=24037
You know. That's not David Gearhart. It's David Gerhardt. That tournament has been helt in Vorarlberg, a city in Austria.

If I missed any irony, nvm.

/Edit: Schneller! :P

[Van Phanel]

Not according to: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=24037

This appears to be the common build now. I like Van's iteration that cuts it down to 60 cards (-1 Remand). If I can get my hand on the CCs I'll be running it that way.

Gerhardt =/= Gearhart
Vorarlberg is located in Austria and I bet Gearhart didn't play a tournament there.


Actually I'm pretty sure that playing 3 Remand is the correct number. It is slow against some decks, especially Threshold and combo but good to great against everything else.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

I think we dont have to worry about goblin lakey.
I mean yes sometimes they have the quick combo start but even thene you could race them. Preboard they play 0!!! disruption and postboard some Pyrpblasts. Goblins are realy close to goldfishing!

And Austria rulez!

[ParkerLewis]

@ParkerLewis: I thought about Threads of Disloyalty, but actually three mana is too much as a single hit of Lackey is enough and decks with Confidant tend to play Daze as well.

Pongify, then.

Actually, isn't that simply the perfect card for what you need to do ? Creature destroyed end of story, for U. Holy shit, it's even an instant. It won't get any better than this.

[Shugyosha]

Pongify, then.

Actually, isn't that simply the perfect card for what you need to do ? Holy shit, it's even an instant.

Piracy Charm is strictly better. You can even let them discard at instant speed if you don't have a target which is a nice effect against aggro control running Confidants.

[ParkerLewis]

Piracy Charm is strictly better.

How is not dealing with Meddling Mage, Teeg, Canonist, Dreadnaught, Goyf, or anything else that has more than 1 toughness, strictly better ?

(Hint : it's not)

Or did you mean strictly inferior ? Because that I can get on board with, although you also could have mentioned mudhole (classic). Or squire (ditto).

[Illuvator Brightstar]

Pongify, then.

Actually, isn't that simply the perfect card for what you need to do ? Creature destroyed end of story, for U. Holy shit, it's even an instant. It won't get any better than this.

You're my hero. I totally forgot about that card... And it solves the problem. Perfect!

[TheyCallMeTim]

Gerhardt =/= Gearhart
Vorarlberg is located in Austria and I bet Gearhart didn't play a tournament there.

Wow, holy shit I missed that completely. Sorry guys.



Actually I'm pretty sure that playing 3 Remand is the correct number. It is slow against some decks, especially Threshold and combo but good to great against everything else.

Agreed.

Repeal>Pognify.

Oh, it seems the Sb'd Mystical Tutor just reappeared randomly. What's up with that?

[Glorfindel]

It's for the times you want to Wish for a High Tide, but you realize all four of them are in your library.

[leander?]

So if my Solidarity-opponent plays a Mystical Tutor, i'd better ask for a deckcheck? :P

[Van Phanel]

@Pongify: Maybe playable. It has the usual problem of being dead midcombo and it accelerates the opponent's clock, but it is the only cheap spell that gets rid of any creature. I might try it when I have time.

@Piracy Charm: The other effects are just too bad. If there was draw a card instead of discard, I could see it being playable, but not the way it's printed.

@Mystical tutor: It didn't reappear randomly, Several people just found that being able to wish for a High Tide withot actually having to play one SB helps a lot in fast matchups and in addition to that, it can be boarded as a weaker copy of sideboardcards in several matchups (E-Truth against Ichorid or ETW, Twincast against ANT and so on). The carddisadvantage and information problems remain so you don't want it against blue decks, but against anyhing non-blue, a singleton doesn't hurt. It can be any card while it is slow and you never want two which means that the obvious solution is playing a singleton.

@leander?: That is most likely a misunderstanding.

[GGoober]

I was planning on playing Solidarity, but in my meta, there's too much discard.

I doubt this deck does well against discard, and I assume this deck auto lose if an opponent extirpates high tide?

I think SB Disrupts/Divert might help out, but Extirpate on High tide seems to be GG for us lol.

EDIT: I guess we can wish High Tide back. That's tech :P

[Hopo]

Reset allows comboing without high tide, and as you said yourself, it can be wished back.

Discard is a pain, though. Try to resolve a Meditate before you combo in order to have enough cards in hand. Also Flash of Insight is great in those matchups.

[Van Phanel]

I was planning on playing Solidarity, but in my meta, there's too much discard.


Massive discard doesn't hurt at all. In the long run they can't stop you from finding what you need and outdrawing them. It gets hard if they combine a clock and a little bit of discard, maybe with Sinkholes in addition but is still very doable. Focus on getting as many lands as possible into play and avoid cunning Wish from being Extirpated and you should be fine as you will topdeck into the win at some point.

The more I compared Disrupt and Divert, the more did I come to the conclusion that Disrupt is better even against discard because it cycles midcombo and you often have to go off with few cards in hand.

Unless the opponent has a fast clock or gets to Extirpate Cunning Wish, there is no need to care about Extirpate. If you are clever at using Brainstorm it gets even easier.
Edit: Formulated badly. Obviously you need to be aware of the possibility that they might have Extirpate and play accordingly, what I wanted to say is that it isn't all that hard to play against.

Summed up, the matchup against a Suicide-kind of deck is by no means a walk in the park but still about even (and favorable with Disrupt side). Just pray that they don't resolve a turn 1 or 2 Dark Confidant. You could even play Think Twice as a singleton or, if your meta is really heavy on discard, as a two-of.

[Bahamuth]

Summed up, the matchup against a Suicide-kind of deck is by no means a walk in the park but still about even (and favorable with Disrupt side). Just pray that they don't resolve a turn 1 or 2 Dark Confidant. You could even play Think Twice as a singleton or, if your meta is really heavy on discard, as a two-of.

Agreed. They generally only win when they either
- Resolve 2nd turn Confidant backed with some discard/LD
- Resolve first or second turn Hyppie (this is just lame...)
- Resolve some sick Ritual Duress Hymn nonsense with a clock one of the following turns.

I've come to reconsider my sideboard a little as well. I really don't want to lose to discard anymore, so I think Disrupt might be a good addition. I still really want to keep playing 3 Twincast and 3 Wipe Away, so by adding Disrupt I'd have no game against Goblins at all...

[Kanti]

Meta is high in discard and Thresh, and some red (Sligh,Goblins,Burn). Would it be smart to use an sb of:


1 Brain Freeze
3 Divert
2 Hydroblast
1 Meditate
1 Rebuild
1 Repeal
1 Turnabout
2 Twincast
1 Stroke of Genius
2 Wipe Away

or should I replace those Hydros for Echoing Truth? And should I replace a Brain Freeze with a Mystical Tutor?

[Bahamuth]

Meta is high in discard and Thresh, and some red (Sligh,Goblins,Burn). Would it be smart to use an sb of:


1 Brain Freeze
3 Divert
2 Hydroblast
1 Meditate
1 Rebuild
1 Repeal
1 Turnabout
2 Twincast
1 Stroke of Genius
2 Wipe Away

or should I replace those Hydros for Echoing Truth? And should I replace a Brain Freeze with a Mystical Tutor?

The sideboard is pretty much up to your own preference. I don't like Mystical. I'm pretty sure Disrupt is better than Divert though. I don't think the Repeal is needed, so I'd replace it with another Wipe Away or Twincast, depending on the presence of combo in your meta. I'd always play at least one Brain Freeze SB, but I prefer 2.

[Shimster]

I played Solidarity in Iserlohn (69 players) yesterday, with a very bad perfomance of 2/4/0 drop.

Round 1 against Red Death style Suicide (more discard instead of burn). I had to mulligan down to 5 in both games I lost. 1:2

Round 2 against UWb Landstill 2:0

Round 3 against UWb Faeries. Spellstutter Sprite is a house in conjunction with Confidants. 1:2

Round 4 against Team America. 0:2

Round 5 against NQGr w/ Swans. 0:2

Round 6 against Planeswalker Zoo. I won through double Extirpate. 2:1

After all, I really disliked the 3 Echoing Truths in my SB. Disrupt would've been way better. Something like

3 Disrupt
2 Hydroblast
2 Twincast
2 Wipe Away
1 Brain Freeze
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Meditate
1 Rebuild
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout

btw: The deck is foil now :smile:

[Van Phanel]

btw: The deck is foil now :smile:

Damnit, you beat me. I'm still looking for a third Delta.

[GreenOne]

The number of non-pure aggro decks is on the rise, as is the number of blue decks and the like.

Here's the list I'm testing right now. It rocks against black disruption and it's quite good against combo.

// Lands
12 [P2] Island (3)
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Spells
1 [SC] Brain Freeze
4 [VI] Impulse
3 [US] Turnabout
4 [FE] High Tide (1)
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [RAV] Remand
3 [IN] Opt
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [LG] Reset
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
3 [TE] Meditate
2 [JU] Flash of Insight
3 [WL] Disrupt

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze
SB: 1 [US] Turnabout
SB: 1 [TE] Meditate
SB: 1 [WL] Disrupt
SB: 3 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 1 [US] Stroke of Genius
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 2 [10E] Twincast
SB: 1 [MM] Misdirection
SB: 3 [IA] Hydroblast

The access to a huge number of (sort of) counters is nothing to sneeze at.
- 3 Disrupt
- 4 FoW
- 4 Remand
- 3 Cunning Wish -> Misdirection/Hydroblast/Disrupt/Twincast

I know we can't help with the clock of the deck (this is a turn 4 deck, trying to speed up the average combo turn doesn't belong the deck imo) so I tried more control cards. Disrupt is quite better than Peek and Opt against blue control, at worst it draws a card for 1 midcombo, but stopping first turn rituals, duress, orim, ad nauseam, sinkhole, vindicate, brainstorm, ponder, mystical tutor, Hymn to tourach works wonders.

If your meta fits a good number of counterbalance i guess you can switch some numbers of Disrupt/Remand for Repeal/Cryptic Command.

Impressions? Was a list like this already posted in the past (it's a bit I'm not following the Solidarity forum)?

[Bahamuth]

Looks like a solid list. I've never tested Disrupt mainboard, because I'm afraid of them being dead in some cases, where I'd really need a card that helps the combo. I wouldn't remove a Brain Freeze from the main. In my opinion, that card, along with probably Cunning Wish, is at exactly the right amount in the original list. You really don't want any more or less. It might very well be just matter of opinion though.

I don't like the Misdirection. I've played it as a Wish target in the past, and it was almost always dead. It doesn't happen that often that you're able to wish Misdiretion to change Hymn to the opponent, and in many cases you probably want a Meditate anyway.

I'd play 3 Twincast. I love the card. It's a bomb in the combo matchup and it's essential in the control matchup.

You're not missing much at the Solidarity forum. It's pretty much dead....

[GreenOne]

I don't like the Misdirection. I've played it as a Wish target in the past, and it was almost always dead. It doesn't happen that often that you're able to wish Misdiretion to change Hymn to the opponent, and in many cases you probably want a Meditate anyway.
Yeah, I wasn't playing it before Disrupt too, but when the opponent get Disrupted once, they try to have one spare mana to play around it, like with Daze. That means that it happens that Hymn and Sinkhole are usually played turn 3 (and confidant on turn 2), opening the mana for Cunning Wish -> Misdi.

I played a match against Eva Green yesterday (on mws though) and it went something like First turn thoughtseize met by disrupt, second turn hymn met by remand, third turn hymn met by misdirection, 4th or 5th turn win. Crazy.

I was satisfied by disrupt: you always have a target for it unless you're playing goblins or stax. If you look at the DTB and Established decks it's really that way. Sure, against goblins the matchup is decreasing in percentage, but Disrupt gives a small hedge against everything else. It also frees quite a bit of SB that you can dedicate to gobbos or stax too.

On Twincast. It's a card i usually want against control and combo, but against combo I already have Disrupt to even the match, so it loses some of its appeal.

[4eak]

@ GreenOne

Disrupt in the main looks very interesting. It obviously helps timewalk, and it can easily play both as offense and defensive permission. In less favorable conditions, Disrupt might not be completely dead either, it would just be a 2cc cantrip if you target your own spells.

I think speeding the combo up as much as possible has been heavily analyzed, and may even be unnecessary as the deck is outclassed by ANT/TES in that role. Perhaps Solidarity should continue looking into the MUC direction, just a nudge. While it could hinder the combo too much, it may have merit.

I will test it =).





peace,
4eak

[cjva]

Played in a last chance qualifier yesterday to the Scandinavian Masters. 73 man tournament so top 16 would get the possibility to play in the masters.

after 8 swiss rounds i ended up at place #9. :)

Don't remember all the matches i played, but game 1 and 2 i played against meathocks and fizzled out comboing when needed to. Nothing much to write here.

Game 3 i got they bye.

Game 4-8 i straighten up my act. Lost against one guy that dropped CB turn 2 all the matches, and combined it with a fast clock and in many cases sensei's divining top.

5-3 was enough.

Iv played the standard list with two exceptions.

1: 1 High Tide in the Wishboard. 4 Cunning Wish in maindeck. It insane how much more stable i find the deck to be. Less likely to combo off turn 3, more stable turn 4 combo.

2: 4 Peek, 0 Opt. In a meta filled with control decks of different versions i found this to be a good choice. Information made more the one game for me.

Right now im trying to analyze what the meta will look like in the masters. I'v also been thinking about puting disrupt mainboard. more 1 cc cantrips with disruption potential is allways nice. Dont know what to take out. 1 peek probably, and need to see if there is more cards that i can get out. Will probably cut one Whipe Away from the SB and put 1 more Cryptic Command on that slot. People seem's to have learned to have more 3cc cards in their deck, and having a 3cc on the top. Heck, i might even cut 2 Wipe Aways for 2 more cryptic commands.

[Bahamuth]

I've been tinkering with the 4 Wish 3 Tides as well. How often do you find yourself Wishing for Tide? How often do you find multiple Wishes and are you screwed by that?

4 Peek?? Wow. Have you ever had trouble not finding land with the Peeks?

[cjva]

I've been tinkering with the 4 Wish 3 Tides as well. How often do you find yourself Wishing for Tide? How often do you find multiple Wishes and are you screwed by that?

4 Peek?? Wow. Have you ever had trouble not finding land with the Peeks?

I pretty often find myself wishing for tide actually. If i would put up a list of what card i wish for it should probably be in this order.

1: High Tide
2: Meditate
3: Stroke
4: Turnabout

Yea, 4 peeks makes it a bit harder to find lands with it compared to Opt. I mostly play the 3 opt/1 peek configuration. This was a good call for the meta, but it still was a close call. The best option in this case would probably have been another configuration. 3 Peek / 1 Opt or maybe, maybe a 2/2. 4 Peek was probably a bit overcommitment to the information plan.

[Elf_Ascetic]

With 73 ppl, 8th round, you're ending 9th with 5-3 after a 0-2 start AND a bye? Strange results, you can consider yourself very lucky, I think.

@ Bahamuth: did you test some more with SDTop?

[cjva]

With 73 ppl, 8th round, you're ending 9th with 5-3 after a 0-2 start AND a bye? Strange results, you can consider yourself very lucky, I think.

@ Bahamuth: did you test some more with SDTop?

i do. Guess many ppl dropped in the end.

[cjva]

Oki.

Played the Scandinavian Masters today. Quick report.

Round 1: Iggy Pop or some other combo. 2-0

Did some minor errors, things that should be corrected but nothing to much. Win in response to him going of both games.
1-0

Round 2: Enchantress 2-0

Use remands as time walks, when i can combo of i do with his Argothian (or whatever its called that let him draw cards for enchantment spells) trigger on stack. No biggie and easy wins both of the games.
2-0

Round 3: Counter / top. 2-1

His draws are rather bad. playing Top every match but never find CB. Nothing fance here either.
3-0

Round 4: UGR ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh without CB. 1-2

We play draw/go for quit some time, i win the first one through his counters. The two remaining he has atleast 1 counterspell of some sort (pyroblast, fow, snare) for every spell i play.
3-1

Round 5: Merfolk 1-2

Fast clock and enough counters to prevent me from winning. I dont stand a chance. (bouth games)
3-2 I can still make it. The first guy i lost again won his next game, and i have a rather good tiebreaker.

Round 6: 2-0

Here i play against something i find rather random. Maybee its a valid deck, dont know. Discard, sculler, vindicate. Post-board i win by Twincast his vindicate that he played against me and destroy his canonist.
4-2 - looking good.

Round 7: 1-2

Winner here will get to top-8, loser will go home to sleep. 4am in the morning. No matter it feels like a win/win situation. I should have won this game, but as more and more ppl had seen me playing solidarity they started to watch the game's i was in. Having 20 ppl watching the game made me nervous, i didnt become less nervous having head judge for the tournament sitting behind me watching all the way so instead of winning 2-0 i lose 1-2. Having the win on my hand both losing games, comboing of, but brain decides to give the win away. He played some version of faerie i think.
4-3

Sleep ftw.

Conclusions of the day:
Im quit happy with the configuration of the deck, and get even more "fanatic" with the deck, but i rely need to find a way to get the nerves to cool down. Went with 2 peek 2 opt today, proved to me that the 4 peek plan i had yesterday was way to overcommited.
The more i play with 1 tide in the wish board i get happier and happier. Having 4 wishes in the deck, giving you the posibility to build your hand in a more controlled way is the nuts.

[Bahamuth]

Anyway, congrats with the results Cjva. Would you change anything to the list you played afterwards?

I haven't tested STD, because you have to realize you probably have to change the internal structure of the deck to be able to support SDT. The deck probably can't rely on Meditate much more, so you will have to find different solutions for that. I'm afraid the late-game power of Solidarity will suffer, although I'm definitely not sure.

[cjva]

Bahamuth: No, nothing more then changes based on the meta.

so the # of opt and peek will be tweaked and changed back and forth, and the sideboard, But no. The list is solid.

[Zinch]

Any result from the playtest of MD disrupts?
I would playtest them myself, but I don't have anytime soon
I believe it can be a good metagame call now that CB is not so present (at least in my meta)

[GreenOne]

Any result from the playtest of MD disrupts?
I would playtest them myself, but I don't have anytime soon
I believe it can be a good metagame call now that CB is not so present (at least in my meta)
I just put back solidarity in my testing gauntlet and it's doing quite well against black decks. Right now it's 5-2 against Eva Green and 5-4 against pox. I'll post results once I havel them all.

[cjva]

Any result from the playtest of MD disrupts?
I would playtest them myself, but I don't have anytime soon
I believe it can be a good metagame call now that CB is not so present (at least in my meta)

I tested it a bit yesterday. And im gonna keep on testing it. I think my meta is rather good for testing MD Disrupt, but as of right now i belive that opt/peek is better, but its a interesting twitch and i feel that opening up 3-4 SB slots is nice.

[Bahamuth]

I'm not playing Disrupt mainboard. I don't want to find any dead cards against Goblins or whatever other form of aggro. I'm running this now:

3 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Meditate
3 Turnabout
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
4 FoW
4 Remand
4 Cunning Wish
3 Opt
1 Peek
2 Flash of Insight
2 Brain Freeze
1 Twincast

11 Island
1 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand

SB:
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 High Tide
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Rebuild
3 Echoing Truth
1 Hunting Pack
3 Krosan Grip
2 Brain Freeze
1 Twincast

I still do not have any solid results to back up 4 Wish 3 Tide mainboard, since I don't play this deck much outside tournaments (not too interesting for the people I play against). I'll run this configuration at my next tournament anyway.

The Hunting Pack may seem strage. I added the card, since it's nice to have as many uses for Wish as possible when you're playing 4. The Pack gives you quite some opportunities to get some random turn 3/4 wins without specifically having to throw out too many resources. Hands like Tide, Reset, Twincast, Wish can from now on win turn 3. It gives you a better game against stuff that is aggressive, but also that is not expecting such wins that early.

EDIT: It's probably better to remove one Brain Freeze for a 3th Twincast in the sideboard. 4 Wish gives you plenty of acces to Freeze, and the 3th Twincast is good against combo and Sui, also specifically since you have the Pack plan now.

[cjva]

Bahamuth: interesting twist with the pack. Be sure to let me (us) know how it works for you. Making opponents SB-plans a bit harder seems wonderfull, having non-basics in the deck dont. Guess 1 trop aint that bad thou.

Disrupt aint totaly dead against gobo and such, for 2 mana you can cycle it against some other spell you play, but yes. Its only worthy in a meta with lots of spells that it can target. And im not sure its worth having it in main even then. Right now im testing for the sake of testing.

Do you feel that Freeze is needed in the bord? I'v stoped playing with it, and i dont miss it at all.

[Bahamuth]

Bahamuth: interesting twist with the pack. Be sure to let me (us) know how it works for you. Making opponents SB-plans a bit harder seems wonderfull, having non-basics in the deck dont. Guess 1 trop aint that bad thou.

Disrupt aint totaly dead against gobo and such, for 2 mana you can cycle it against some other spell you play, but yes. Its only worthy in a meta with lots of spells that it can target. And im not sure its worth having it in main even then. Right now im testing for the sake of testing.

Do you feel that Freeze is needed in the bord? I'v stoped playing with it, and i dont miss it at all.

I already ran the Pack on one tournament, where I actually used it 3 times, and they won me the game every time. Note that it can also be used to kill problematic creatures like Mage and Confidant in the attack phase. Also note that this only truly works when it's a surprise. In the past I always boarded in the Packs, but since that plan dies to EE and stuff like that, it's better not to.

Yes, I feel the Freeze is needed. I would never run without it. I actually prefer to play 2 Freezes sb, but one is probably just as good. I like to be certain about winning, and Freeze often gives me this opportunity (so does Pack by the way).

[Zinch]

Disrupt is almost dead against goblins, yeah, but not against "other form of aggro" as you say Bahamuth: almost every non goblin aggro plays some sort of sorcery or instant: lightning bolt, chain lightning, thoughtseize... even against a deck without such cards, you can cycle it like cjva said

[Bahamuth]

Disrupt is almost dead against goblins, yeah, but not against "other form of aggro" as you say Bahamuth: almost every non goblin aggro plays some sort of sorcery or instant: lightning bolt, chain lightning, thoughtseize... even against a deck without such cards, you can cycle it like cjva said

Don't you agree that either cycling the card (which takes valuable time) or waiting for them to play a sorcery/instant is just plain bad?

[Zinch]

I know is not optimal against aggro, but I like to play this deck as a pseudo combo-control deck and disrupt is very good on playing this role (in paper at least, it must be tested of course).
What I see is that depending on the metagame, disrupt can be a great card

[GreenOne]

Don't you agree that either cycling the card (which takes valuable time) or waiting for them to play a sorcery/instant is just plain bad?
Don't you think that 2 for 1 -ing the opponent win games?

We all know that Disrupt is not great against decks playing little md disruption.
BUT this is compensated by the fact that it can counter Tourach, Sinkhole, Thoughtseize, Duress, Vindicate, careful study, breakthrough, cabal therapy, dread return, Ponder, Brainstorm, Stifle, FoF, Loam, Devastating Dream, Geddon, Burn, Burning Wish, counterspells and so on.
Oh, and also everything from combo decks.

If your opponent plays around it, playing his spells one turn later then you actually timewalked your opponent for having a 3of in your deck even if you don't actually have it. And even when this occours, then you just have cycled it for 1 mana, making it not that worse from Peek or Opt.

Disrupt is obviously shitty against only-creatures.dec (that in this format is represented by Goblins and Elves only), but those decks should be favorable anyway. Gaining an edge against combo and aggrocontrol is what the deck needs to compete, and those decks are full of sorceries and istants.

[Bahamuth]

I'm still not convinced. I can't use Disrupt to get land whenever I need it. I have to have it at the right moment, when my opponent casts a counterable spell. You will get some unlucky moments where you draw it after your opponent cast a spell, or where your opponent just happens to keep mana open without actually meaning to.

I'm also pretty sure the card would be the first to come out while sideboarding in alot of matchups. I don't think the card would be strong enough against Thresh to keep in game 2/3.

[GreenOne]

I'm still not convinced. I can't use Disrupt to get land whenever I need it. I have to have it at the right moment, when my opponent casts a counterable spell. You will get some unlucky moments where you draw it after your opponent cast a spell, or where your opponent just happens to keep mana open without actually meaning to.

I'm also pretty sure the card would be the first to come out while sideboarding in alot of matchups. I don't think the card would be strong enough against Thresh to keep in game 2/3.

I play a quite standard list with -1 Twincast, -1 Peek, -1 Brainfreeze. Given that neither twincast or brainfreeze can find a land, I actually gave up the great digging power of Peek for 3 situational disrupts.
This seems quite better at finding lands.

[Bahamuth]

I play a quite standard list with -1 Twincast, -1 Peek, -1 Brainfreeze. Given that neither twincast or brainfreeze can find a land, I actually gave up the great digging power of Peek for 3 situational disrupts.
This seems quite better at finding lands.

Fair enough. Still, Twincast and Brain Freeze both supplement the combo. I wouldn't run this deck without 2 Brain Freeze mainboard. It's actually quite important that you can cast the Peek anytime you wish to find land. It's easily the difference between missing a land drop or not, which can cost you the game, even if you manage to counter a cantrip or something after that.

The counters we play, Remand and FoW, are good because they are both really useful in both the combo itself and before that. Disrupt isn't good mid-combo at all (casting High Tide gives the card little chance of succes) and it doesn't help you against problematic cards like Confidant. It seems I'm comparing different things, but I am not. I want the cards I play in this deck to be useful as often as possible, if they are not an absolute necessity for the combo itself. I feel that Disrupt doesn't do either in a sufficient way consistently to include it in the mainboard.

Don't get me wrong, against certain decks, which happen to run alot of targets, the effect is especially useful (Sui), or the mere possibility of being able to counter for 1 mana is good enough (combo). That's why Disrupt is a solid sideboard card, but just not mainboard material for me. If I had enough space in my board, I would run the card, along with Hydroblast. Since I don't, I run Echoing Truth as an all-round solution to both Aggro and Ichorid (and stuff like Belcher).

[ScatmanX]

While speaking about counters, doesen´t this deck suck agains´t Counterbalance as Spring Tide does?
In my Spring Tide list, i´m currently running 3xDisrupt and 3xSpell Snare maindeck, while 0xFoW (don´t have), and the 4th of each in the borad. It´s been playing out great! Disrupt is bad agains´t goblins? take them out G2andG3 and wreck them. You´re the combo player! And with these 6 counters, +2SB, other combos look bad agains´t us.
I´ve also tryied Divert, in the Spell Snare Slot, but Snare is way better, since it counters Countebalance.

[Bahamuth]

While speaking about counters, doesen´t this deck suck agains´t Counterbalance as Spring Tide does?
In my Spring Tide list, i´m currently running 3xDisrupt and 3xSpell Snare maindeck, while 0xFoW (don´t have), and the 4th of each in the borad. It´s been playing out great! Disrupt is bad agains´t goblins? take them out G2andG3 and wreck them. You´re the combo player! And with these 6 counters, +2SB, other combos look bad agains´t us.
I´ve also tryied Divert, in the Spell Snare Slot, but Snare is way better, since it counters Countebalance.

We have 4 FoW, 3-4 Wish and 0-2 Cryptic Command mainboard and plenty of cantrips to find them before Counterbalance lands, and SB a number of Wipe Away or Krosan Grip. Counterbalance is manageable.

How are those cards good enough against combo? Spell Snare barely hurts combo that uses Chant or AdN and Disrupt is only really good against their cantrips. FoW and Twincast are far superior.

[GreenOne]

Disrupt is only really good against their cantrips. FoW and Twincast are far superior.
I did the Solidarity+Disrupt vs TES matchup, playing TES. The strategy against solidarity is quite simple: you're the aggressor and need to combo out in the first 3 turns, otherwise solidarity will just outplay you. Usually you want to accelerate to the first or second turn, so remand doesn't enter the equation and you just have to play against 4xFoWs, with barely a 40% that your opponent holds it, and this without counting your chants and duresses.

When disrupt enters the equation you have to worry about 7 counters on turn 1, and a possible counter for your turn 1 duress.
So basically, on turn 1 you have to combo through 4FoW+3Disrupt, on turn 2 against 4FoW+3Disrupt+4Remand, turn 3 adds cunning wish ->misdirection (for Chant) and turn 4 adds cunning wish->Hydroblast or disrupt and, obviously, the chance of going off.

Seems like disrupt does just a little, but the "daze" effect without the tempo loss and with added card advantage changes the matchup completely.

Right now my testing in this matchup shows 5-2 in Solidarity's favor.

[Bahamuth]

I did the Solidarity+Disrupt vs TES matchup, playing TES. The strategy against solidarity is quite simple: you're the aggressor and need to combo out in the first 3 turns, otherwise solidarity will just outplay you. Usually you want to accelerate to the first or second turn, so remand doesn't enter the equation and you just have to play against 4xFoWs, with barely a 40% that your opponent holds it, and this without counting your chants and duresses.

When disrupt enters the equation you have to worry about 7 counters on turn 1, and a possible counter for your turn 1 duress.
So basically, on turn 1 you have to combo through 4FoW+3Disrupt, on turn 2 against 4FoW+3Disrupt+4Remand, turn 3 adds cunning wish ->misdirection (for Chant) and turn 4 adds cunning wish->Hydroblast or disrupt and, obviously, the chance of going off.

Seems like disrupt does just a little, but the "daze" effect without the tempo loss and with added card advantage changes the matchup completely.

Right now my testing in this matchup shows 5-2 in Solidarity's favor.

I realise exactly what the TES vs Solidarity matchup is all about, since it's probably the matchup I played most. FoW + Twincast is just as much a strong strategy as FoW + Disrupt. TES can't hope to combo out turn 2 unprotected, and Twincast gives you essentially a timewalk + a Duress on his Chant. The effect when cast on Chant is pretty much ideal. Twincast on Duress is usually just as good, as it will probably set the opponent back a couple of turns.

Also, Remand barely matters, Especially against TES. It's all about resolving a Chant, and Remand just sucks against that card.

[Julian23]

Question to the gods of Solidarity:

How do you approach the 8-land Stompy matchup? I'm asking because in our last Legacy FNM (we actually have that) I was playing that deck in the final and lost 1-2 because I really couldn't cope with his army. Threatening a potential turn3 kill I FoW'ed each and every of the creatures he dropped but therefor soon ran out of gas and got overwhelmed by just even more guys.

The choice was to either remove cantrips or business spells for FoW. The former results in fewer landdrops and later drags out the game for too long. I didn't dare to meditate pre-combo against a deck that can easily deal >10 dmg. a turn.

[GreenOne]

Question to the gods of Solidarity:

How do you approach the 8-land Stompy matchup? I'm asking because in our last Legacy FNM (we actually have that) I was playing that deck in the final and lost 1-2 because I really couldn't cope with his army. Threatening a potential turn3 kill I FoW'ed each and every of the creatures he dropped but therefor soon ran out of gas and got overwhelmed by just even more guys.

The choice was to either remove cantrips or business spells for FoW. The former results in fewer landdrops and later drags out the game for too long. I didn't dare to meditate pre-combo against a deck that can easily deal >10 dmg. a turn.
I usually FoW the first threat. Side in cheap bounce, it works wonders against pump spells.

[Silent Requiem]

Just a quick hello to the Solidarity players. I'm a former (unpowered) Vintage player that got tired of competing with deck his monthly salary couldn't buy. I've decided to start over in Legacy.

I was looking through various forums for decks to build, and thought you should all know that I settled on Solidarity primarily due to this thread. It gave me a good feel for how the deck played, and also the challenges it faces (who wants to play eazy-mode, eh?).

I have never played mono blue before, so I am starting out with a proxy deck using the decklist from the first post. I have a few questions about when I should try and combo out:

a) What should I have in my hand, minimum, before I try and combo?

b) How many lands should I have untapped/available?

c) Should I be doing anything more than draw-go until I combo out? It would seem that I would be wasting storm spells if I use them early.

-Silent Requiem

[Fons]

Just a quick hello to the Solidarity players. I'm a former (unpowered) Vintage player that got tired of competing with deck his monthly salary couldn't buy. I've decided to start over in Legacy.

I was looking through various forums for decks to build, and thought you should all know that I settled on Solidarity primarily due to this thread. It gave me a good feel for how the deck played, and also the challenges it faces (who wants to play eazy-mode, eh?).

I have never played mono blue before, so I am starting out with a proxy deck using the decklist from the first post. I have a few questions about when I should try and combo out:

a) What should I have in my hand, minimum, before I try and combo?

b) How many lands should I have untapped/available?

c) Should I be doing anything more than draw-go until I combo out? It would seem that I would be wasting storm spells if I use them early.

-Silent Requiem

First of all welcome to The Source and Congrats for picking Solidarity it's a fun deck that will teach you a lot about the stack. This thread is great for asking questions and we are lucky to have some great Solidarity players to help us.

A. You should be looking for High Tide, Meditate and an Untap spell, cunning wish is also great.

B. Thats the great thing about Solidarity you combo when you need to, just try to make a land drop every turn. When your opponent swings with lethal damage you can respond by comboing out.

C. Play your cantrips you need lands to win so missing a land drop can cost you the game. Remember your not just a combo deck your the control deck too.

[Bahamuth]

Just a quick hello to the Solidarity players. I'm a former (unpowered) Vintage player that got tired of competing with deck his monthly salary couldn't buy. I've decided to start over in Legacy.

I was looking through various forums for decks to build, and thought you should all know that I settled on Solidarity primarily due to this thread. It gave me a good feel for how the deck played, and also the challenges it faces (who wants to play eazy-mode, eh?).

I have never played mono blue before, so I am starting out with a proxy deck using the decklist from the first post. I have a few questions about when I should try and combo out:

a) What should I have in my hand, minimum, before I try and combo?

b) How many lands should I have untapped/available?

c) Should I be doing anything more than draw-go until I combo out? It would seem that I would be wasting storm spells if I use them early.

-Silent Requiem

The best tip I can give you when playing this deck, is to see this deck as a control deck, not as a combo deck. You always win when you are forced to, not as soon as you can.

a) I can't give too much specifics here, since the deck allows you to win with many many posible hands. For me the magic 3 is High Tide, Meditate and Reset. Those will usually get you quite far. It's good to have one or two cards next to them, like Impulse or Cunning Wish.

b) The minimum is 3, but this will require multiple Tides. Unless you absolutely have to, don't try it. 4 is the standard number, and if you choose your cantrips the right way, you will very often be able to win on turn 4. This doesn't mean it's right to win on turn 4, and to take those cantrip choices for that matter.

c) You're not wasting spells by cantripping, since they wil replace themselves with cards generally suited better for the situation. It can be strong to have an Impulse in hand when comboing, but I'd probably always cast it before the combo (now that I think of it, this might not even be the right call at all times).

Be warned though. Almost every game you play with Solidarity is going to be a fight, and many games will be (actually seem) very close. You won't have succes with the deck if you're not familliar with it. If you like this deck enough to put time into it, practice alot and get familliar with choices like cantrip decisions, FoW targets and ways to play around counters.

[slyfer]

I never succeeded in winning counter-stack-war, because expert players will counter the untap effect, and that runs you out of mana resources.
Example.
We should have great match up vs landstill, it should be a bye. They also have loads of dead cards (the removals)
But first we need at least 4 lands, so we use cantrips and also remand, just to find lands!
we play 18 land, they play 23/24, so they hit better land drop statistically. When we start high tide, they sit down and wait the reset/turnabout, and they can cast counterspell with only 1 land.
Maybe I was extremely unlucky but I lost almost every game.
The deck weak point is that when you combo, you are not sure at 100% that you will win! You just draw cards, and drawing 3 lands off a meditate really put you on Mars.
Consider that when you "go off", you cannot play a fetchland (90% you won't be in your mainphase), and you have 14 lands in the deck remaining. The more you draw, the more you can fizzle.
Any other combo deck is different in the sense that "I go off" = "I win @100%

[Fons]

Any other combo deck is different in the sense that "I go off" = "I win @100%

I disagree I have played several combo decks and I have found Solidarity to be the most consistent.

[Nonex]

I never succeeded in winning counter-stack-war, because expert players will counter the untap effect, and that runs you out of mana resources.
Example.
We should have great match up vs landstill, it should be a bye. They also have loads of dead cards (the removals)
But first we need at least 4 lands, so we use cantrips and also remand, just to find lands!
we play 18 land, they play 23/24, so they hit better land drop statistically. When we start high tide, they sit down and wait the reset/turnabout, and they can cast counterspell with only 1 land.
Maybe I was extremely unlucky but I lost almost every game.
The deck weak point is that when you combo, you are not sure at 100% that you will win! You just draw cards, and drawing 3 lands off a meditate really put you on Mars.
Consider that when you "go off", you cannot play a fetchland (90% you won't be in your mainphase), and you have 14 lands in the deck remaining. The more you draw, the more you can fizzle.
Any other combo deck is different in the sense that "I go off" = "I win @100%

If you plan on going off with 4 lands against Landstill it's logical that you lose. I don't see any reason to go off as soon as possible against a deck with no early pressure. Just keep playing lands and sculpting your hand. The more lands you drop, the more mana you get and the less dependancy you have on a resolved High Tide.

[Julian23]

@slyfer: Don't go for it that early! The great thing about Landstill is the fact it applies close to no pressure on you. From my (still little) experience I can tell that Remanding a spell they try to counter is an important move in this matchup.

[Funky-kun]

Also, baiting counters with Meditate EOT (and eventually Remanding it back) is godly against them. If they let the Meditate resolve, you can easily beat them even Main Phase 1. If they counter, you Remand - if they let remand resolve you've gained CA and removed a counter, if they counter Remand - they've got 2 counters less.

[Silent Requiem]

Any other combo deck is different in the sense that "I go off" = "I win @100%

I understand what you are saying. Unlike other combo decks, we do not have all the pieces in front of us when we start to combo. We are relying on a certain amount of luck to draw a chain of cards that we can use to resolve a lethal freeze.

That said, I disagree that this makes us more vulnerable than other combo. In fact, it is quite the reverse. If we take Dragon as an example, the combo falls apart to a well timed swords to plowshares. Every combo has at least one lynchpin. The difference between Dragon (and other combo) and Solidarity, is that we become less vulnerable to counters over time.

I say this because we do not rely on a specific order of cards. We are, in a sense, making things up as we go along, which allows us to be flexible. And the more time we have, the longer we have had to build a mana base and tune our hand.

And to top it all off, their attempts to counter actually help us! Providing I can win the counter war or play around, I may actually find it easier to hit critical storm values.

I have to say, I am really enjoying this deck.

-Silent Requiem

[Zinch]

Wellcome to The Source Silent Requiem
It's clear you understand the philosophy of the deck... and with only 2 posts! :smile:

As you said, the fact that we don't need to follow a certain chain of spells, is not a weaknes, its an advantage: we don't need to play any specific spell! Any!

To slyfer: as some have said, don't try to go out with only 4 lands against landstill... try with 7-8, you will win every stack-war, and if you don't win that war, try it again the next turn, you have plenty of time!

[Funky-kun]

Hah, that's what I though too, but on the last tournament I played the Landstill player drew manlands (and Goyfs g2) like crazy. xD

[Silent Requiem]

Thanks for the warm welcome, everyone. :smile:

Just a tip for other new players (I doubt the old, established players will need tips from newbies like me): practice.

I have found the following exercise to be VERY helpful in coming to understand the deck.

Goldfish and combo out. Sounds simple right? Well, it was really difficult for me at first. I started with the following limitations:

a) I assume I go first (less card advantage)
b) I MUST combo out by (opponent’s) turn 6.
c) I MUST combo out earlier than turn 6 if I have at least 4 untapped lands.
d) I MUST Brain Freeze 18 times to win.

Failure to meet any of the above conditions results in a loss.

Just playing with those restrictions helped me understand the deck a lot. It taught me not to just topdeck to 4 lands… I had to aggressively hunt for those lands if I didn’t want to have to combo out with 3 lands on turn 6! It also taught me a lot about card interactions.

Here are some of the synergies I discovered.

Brainstorm & Impulse: One of the great things about Brainstorm is the ability to throw away dead cards (normally land). The problem is then that you have rubbish on top of your library. Follow up with Impulse to put those dead cards on the bottom of your library. This also makes Impulse safer; I hate pulling Reset, High Tide, Cunning Wish and Brain Freeze and then having to throw 3 away!

Brainstorm & Opt: Not quite as good as Impulse, Opt also helps clear the rubbish left by Brainstorm. Just make sure you put the card you do want on your library first; you want to look at your top card and then put it on the bottom, drawing the second card. This leaves your library clean. Simply drawing the first card leaves you with another dead card on the library.

Remand + another: In a pinch, when mana allows, countering your own spell acts as a cantrip. It has saved me more than once when I had loads of mana generation but no more draw cards.

Brain Freeze & Brain Freeze: As stupid as it sounds, I started off storming all the way up to 18 before Freezing. This taught me a great deal about storming, and I can now storm to 18 with 4 lands most of the time, but it is SO much easier to just storm to 9 and Freeze twice. I had probably run about 20 games before this occurred to me!

Now that my initial conditions are easily met, I add one or more of the following limitations to challenge myself:

a) I MUST defend my first Reset from a counter spell.
b) I MUST combo out by turn 5.
c) I MUST combo out as soon as I have 3 untapped lands (very tough).
d) I MUST finish my opponent off on the turn I combo out (so I need to follow up with Stroke of Genius).

I hope this was helpful rather than just blindingly obvious.

-Silent Requiem

[4eak]

@ Silent Requiem

I certainly look at testing the boundaries of a deck as being an informative and necessary part of learning any deck. I certainly think what you described is an important part of knowing how to play. Goldfishing is more productive than most people think, but it must be done in context. Unfortunately, Solidarity is easily misunderstood in pure goldfishing, simply because many tend to focus so heavily on the combo without thinking about the rest of the framework.

I think the combo aspect of the deck conceals the truth about Solidarity: Solidarity is a control deck.

Solidarity is a reactive deck that molds around an opponent's gameplan. As such, setting conditions to 'when' you must go off should consider the gamestate more than most of the factors you've listed. Yes, it is good to know what to takes to "go off" (and goldfishing gives you good practice), because you'll definitely need to know when you can appropriately convert into the aggro role, but goldfishing does not provide a good framework for understanding the control role played by this deck.

As with most control decks, you need to be testing against actual opponents as much as possible. Because of the control role the deck plays, goldfishing will have limited experience and information to offer a Solidarity pilot.




peace,
4eak

[Bahamuth]

Concerning the Brain Freezes: I almost never make enough storm to win with a single Brain Freeze. The storm count should be seen as a byproduct of trying to find the opportunity to cast 2 Brain Freezes (or Freeze + Remand) and a Turnabout or a Stroke.

[GreenOne]

Thanks for the warm welcome, everyone. :smile:

Just a tip for other new players (I doubt the old, established players will need tips from newbies like me): practice.

I have found the following exercise to be VERY helpful in coming to understand the deck.

Goldfish and combo out. Sounds simple right? Well, it was really difficult for me at first. I started with the following limitations:

a) I assume I go first (less card advantage)
b) I MUST combo out by (opponent’s) turn 6.
c) I MUST combo out earlier than turn 6 if I have at least 4 untapped lands.
d) I MUST Brain Freeze 18 times to win.

Failure to meet any of the above conditions results in a loss.

Just playing with those restrictions helped me understand the deck a lot. It taught me not to just topdeck to 4 lands… I had to aggressively hunt for those lands if I didn’t want to have to combo out with 3 lands on turn 6! It also taught me a lot about card interactions.

Here are some of the synergies I discovered.

Brainstorm & Impulse: One of the great things about Brainstorm is the ability to throw away dead cards (normally land). The problem is then that you have rubbish on top of your library. Follow up with Impulse to put those dead cards on the bottom of your library. This also makes Impulse safer; I hate pulling Reset, High Tide, Cunning Wish and Brain Freeze and then having to throw 3 away!

Brainstorm & Opt: Not quite as good as Impulse, Opt also helps clear the rubbish left by Brainstorm. Just make sure you put the card you do want on your library first; you want to look at your top card and then put it on the bottom, drawing the second card. This leaves your library clean. Simply drawing the first card leaves you with another dead card on the library.

Remand + another: In a pinch, when mana allows, countering your own spell acts as a cantrip. It has saved me more than once when I had loads of mana generation but no more draw cards.

Brain Freeze & Brain Freeze: As stupid as it sounds, I started off storming all the way up to 18 before Freezing. This taught me a great deal about storming, and I can now storm to 18 with 4 lands most of the time, but it is SO much easier to just storm to 9 and Freeze twice. I had probably run about 20 games before this occurred to me!

Now that my initial conditions are easily met, I add one or more of the following limitations to challenge myself:

a) I MUST defend my first Reset from a counter spell.
b) I MUST combo out by turn 5.
c) I MUST combo out as soon as I have 3 untapped lands (very tough).
d) I MUST finish my opponent off on the turn I combo out (so I need to follow up with Stroke of Genius).

I hope this was helpful rather than just blindingly obvious.

-Silent Requiem

I'll add some more to what you've said:
- Brain Freeze + Remand = Tech
- Brainstorm + Flash of Insight = Flash of insight may act as a shuffle effect, like Impulse.
- Brainstorm + Brain Freeze = Shuffle effect. Just target yourself with a couple of copies of brain freeze and your opponent with the others, and you suddenly made your 2x brainstorm in hand like Ancestral Recalls.
- Brain Freeze + Flash of Insight = Brain freeze can be actually be used as a draw spell if you lack some. Target yourself with freeze until you mill a Flash of Insight, then (with other copies of Brain Freeze on stack), flashback Flash of Insight to take a meditate/cunning wish. Often you'll have a big enough graveyard to allow you to stack your entire deck as you please, ensuring your win. Remember that the original copy of Brain Freeze resolve last, so you can keep it on the stack until you find a remand to target it and play it on your opponent.
- Remand + Opponent's spell = this seems obvious, but many times you're going off with some opponent's spell on the stack (discard, counterbalance, etc), so in real games you probably just need to target your opponent's spell with remand instead of yours, making it more mana efficient as a cantrip.
- Turnabout = Stroke. This is not always true, but happens quite often. When facing lethal damage on the table, you can go off in the "beginning of combat" step, so your opponent can't cast other creatures and has not declared (tapped) attackers yet. This way you can win by milling your opponent and Turnabout opponent's creatures, without needing to stroke.
- Remand + Our spells: When the opponent counters a spell (usually tide), you have the option to just remand it and go off next turn. with less counters and the same number of cards in hand.

[Silent Requiem]

I'll add some more to what you've said:
- Brain Freeze + Remand = Tech
- Brainstorm + Flash of Insight = Flash of insight may act as a shuffle effect, like Impulse.
- Brainstorm + Brain Freeze = Shuffle effect. Just target yourself with a couple of copies of brain freeze and your opponent with the others, and you suddenly made your 2x brainstorm in hand like Ancestral Recalls.
- Brain Freeze + Flash of Insight = Brain freeze can be actually be used as a draw spell if you lack some. Target yourself with freeze until you mill a Flash of Insight, then (with other copies of Brain Freeze on stack), flashback Flash of Insight to take a meditate/cunning wish. Often you'll have a big enough graveyard to allow you to stack your entire deck as you please, ensuring your win. Remember that the original copy of Brain Freeze resolve last, so you can keep it on the stack until you find a remand to target it and play it on your opponent.
- Remand + Opponent's spell = this seems obvious, but many times you're going off with some opponent's spell on the stack (discard, counterbalance, etc), so in real games you probably just need to target your opponent's spell with remand instead of yours, making it more mana efficient as a cantrip.
- Turnabout = Stroke. This is not always true, but happens quite often. When facing lethal damage on the table, you can go off in the "beginning of combat" step, so your opponent can't cast other creatures and has not declared (tapped) attackers yet. This way you can win by milling your opponent and Turnabout opponent's creatures, without needing to stroke.
- Remand + Our spells: When the opponent counters a spell (usually tide), you have the option to just remand it and go off next turn. with less counters and the same number of cards in hand.

Wow. Thank you for that.

That is going to take me a while to absorb. Some of it I don't even understand, which probably means that I need to become far more familiar with the stack rules. The trouble with having played since Revised is that you don't notice some of the subtle rule changes.

-Silent Requiem

[GreenOne]

Wow. Thank you for that.

That is going to take me a while to absorb. Some of it I don't even understand, which probably means that I need to become far more familiar with the stack rules. The trouble with having played since Revised is that you don't notice some of the subtle rule changes.
No problem. Just ask if something doesn't become clear.

[MSC]

- Brain Freeze + Flash of Insight = Brain freeze can be actually be used as a draw spell if you lack some. Target yourself with freeze until you mill a Flash of Insight, then (with other copies of Brain Freeze on stack), flashback Flash of Insight to take a meditate/cunning wish. Often you'll have a big enough graveyard to allow you to stack your entire deck as you please, ensuring your win. Remember that the original copy of Brain Freeze resolve last, so you can keep it on the stack until you find a remand to target it and play it on your opponent.


Please remember, that you have to declare targets for the Spell and all Copys as they go on the Stack.
I had a Match versus a Solidarity Player once, where he wanted to decide the Targets on resolution, so he could find Flash of Insight and then set the Rest of the copys on me...

[Fons]

I once milled myself for 9 and got my flash of insight but lost all three of my cunning wishes, it was a sad day.

[Silent Requiem]

I'll add some more to what you've said:
- Brain Freeze + Remand = Tech

Let me be sure I understand this. You cast Brain Freeze and the storm copies are generated (lets say 5 of them). Those 5 copies resolve in due course, at which time (when you have priority) you cast Remand, targeting the original Brain Freeze. When Remand resolves (because it is on the stack above the Brain Freeze), the Freeze is countered back to your hand, so you can cast it again. Which is awesome.

So my only remaining question on this point is this: do those 5 copies of the original Brain Freeze increase the storm count for the second casting of the Freeze?



- Brainstorm + Brain Freeze = Shuffle effect. Just target yourself with a couple of copies of brain freeze and your opponent with the others, and you suddenly made your 2x brainstorm in hand like Ancestral Recalls.

Having reviewed the new rules on the stack, I now understand this. It's amazing how things have changed. Back when I started playing, once things started resolving you had to let the whole chain unravel.


- Brain Freeze + Flash of Insight = Brain freeze can be actually be used as a draw spell if you lack some. Target yourself with freeze until you mill a Flash of Insight, then (with other copies of Brain Freeze on stack), flashback Flash of Insight to take a meditate/cunning wish. Often you'll have a big enough graveyard to allow you to stack your entire deck as you please, ensuring your win. Remember that the original copy of Brain Freeze resolve last, so you can keep it on the stack until you find a remand to target it and play it on your opponent.

One of the posters above answered the question I had on this one. It's a bit of a gamble, as you have to decide in advance how many Freezes you target yourself with, but I suppose it would mostly be used in emergencies.


- Remand + Opponent's spell = this seems obvious, but many times you're going off with some opponent's spell on the stack (discard, counterbalance, etc), so in real games you probably just need to target your opponent's spell with remand instead of yours, making it more mana efficient as a cantrip.

Good point. That simply hadn't come up in my goldfishing (for obvious reasons).


- Turnabout = Stroke. This is not always true, but happens quite often. When facing lethal damage on the table, you can go off in the "beginning of combat" step, so your opponent can't cast other creatures and has not declared (tapped) attackers yet. This way you can win by milling your opponent and Turnabout opponent's creatures, without needing to stroke.

Another good point.


- Remand + Our spells: When the opponent counters a spell (usually tide), you have the option to just remand it and go off next turn. with less counters and the same number of cards in hand.

I had assumed that an opponent would wait until we had commited some resources to the fight before countering. That being the case, I would have thought the Reset was the card to counter. Do people actually intend to counter the High Tide?

On a related note, if I play a Brain Freeze (generating 5 copies), and then someone counters the original Brain Freeze, if the counter resolves do I lose just the one Brain Freeze, or all of them?

-Silent Requiem

[Taurelin]

So my only remaining question on this point is this: do those 5 copies of the original Brain Freeze increase the storm count for the second casting of the Freeze?

Unfortunately, they don't because they are not "played" but simply "put on the stack". Still, the trick with Remand reduces the number of spells necessary. Compare this:

16 spells + Brain Freeze = 17*3 = 51 cards
7 spells + Brain Freeze + Remand + Brain Freeze = 7*3 + 10*3 = 51 cards


On a related note, if I play a Brain Freeze (generating 5 copies), and then someone counters the original Brain Freeze, if the counter resolves do I lose just the one Brain Freeze, or all of them?


Just the one, the copies remain. With Stifle/Trickbind, however, the opponent can avoid all those storm copies by neutralizing the storm-trigger.

[Bahamuth]

Different people will counter different spells. Luckily, you can easily play through either. When they counter a Tide, you can Remand (since it's generally the first spell). When they counter something after the Tide (Meditate is a target often enough), you have tons of mana to respond.

[TimeTwister]

Ahoi,

just some corrections ...


One of the posters above answered the question I had on this one. It's a bit of a gamble, as you have to decide in advance how many Freezes you target yourself with, but I suppose it would mostly be used in emergencies.

In general you will target with all copies yourself, but they can be resolved seperatly, so that you can decide how often you will put 3 cards in your graveyard (if possible let the original brain freece on stack to reuse it with remand). Because you are the player with only instants, you could just play further with the remaining copies on the stack.



7 spells + Brain Freeze + Remand + Brain Freeze = 7*3 + 10*3 = 51 cards


7 spells + Brain Freeze = 8 x 3 (because the original Brain Freeze puts also 3 cards in the graveyard)
7 spells + Brain Freeze + Remand + Brain Freeze = 10 x 3 (correct)


salute
TimeTwister

[GreenOne]

With Stifle/Trickbind, however, the opponent can avoid all those storm copies by neutralizing the storm-trigger.
In this case remember that with Trickbind they just counter the storm trigger, but the original spell of Brain Freeze is still on stack, so you have a chance of remanding it and replay it.



7 spells + Brain Freeze = 8 x 3 (because the original Brain Freeze puts also 3 cards in the graveyard)
Not really: the original Brain Freeze gets countered by your remand, so it's (7+10)x3=51.

[TimeTwister]

Not really: the original Brain Freeze gets countered by your remand, so it's (7+10)x3=51.

Argh ... sorry ... I should think before I write something ... :eek:


salute
TimeTwister

[Zinch]

And don't forget that if you play Cryptic Command, you can also tap your opponents creatures with it