MEANDECK OPEN: LEGACY - Sunday, December 28, 2008

[Smmenen]

ANNOUNCEMENT: MEANDECK OPEN – LEGACY TOURNAMENT
Sunday, December 28, 2008 – Columbus, Ohio

With the American Legacy Grand Prix only a few months away, it is the perfect time to play Legacy!

WHAT: LEGACY! Tournament

Swiss + Top 8.

Entry is $15

Note: This tournament will NOT be sanctioned so that players can play with proxies to try out decks they may not want to invest in for the actual Grand Prix.

*** 20 Proxy Limit ***

PRIZES:
CASH!!!
1st Place: 50% of Prize Pool
2nd Place: 25% of Prize Pool
3rd Place: 12.5% of Prize Pool
4th Place: 12.5% of Prize Pool

$200 minimum prize pool!

There will also be door prizes. I will consult with teammates about additional cool prizes, and update this thread with that information. If you have suggestions or requests, PM me with that information and we’ll see what we can do!

WHEN: Sunday, December 28, 2008

The store opens at 12 Noon. Registration starts at 12:30. Tournament begins at 1pm sharp.

WHERE:

The Soldiery
4256 N. High St.
Columbus, Ohio 43214

DOPENESS FACTOR

Come meet 2007 Magic Worlds finalist PATRICK “The Innovator” CHAPIN! You’ve seen him on the Magic show, you’ve probably read his articles, now come meet the man. Also, check out thenlu.com!

DOPENESS FACTOR * 2

Hang out 2008 Vintage Champ PAUL “Mr. Type 4” MASTRIANO and JOIN IN a giant Type Four game after the tournament at THURMAN’S! YOU MUST try a Thurman Burger:
http://columbusalive.com/2008/best/dining/images/burger-thurman.jpg


This will be the perfect opportunity to test your deck ideas before the Grand Prix! If you are a Midwesterner, you can NOT miss this event!

Hope you can make it!

[Bryant Cook]

No 4th place? Seems weak to me, you may want to work on that.

[Smmenen]

Unfortunately, we couldn't find another 10% out of 100 ;)

[Bryant Cook]

Why not 50%, 25%, 12.5%, 12.5%? Seems more balanced to me.

[URABAHN]

Prize support isn't beefy enough for me to drive out to Ohio for this. Plus it's on a terrible day, Sunday. This looks like a tournament for local Legacy players.

[Smmenen]

Prize support isn't beefy enough for me to drive out to Ohio for this. Plus it's on a terrible day, Sunday. This looks like a tournament for local Legacy players.

Sunday has typically been the best day since people with busy lives (girlfriends, families, etc) don't want to eat up the entire weekend with a Saturday tournament smack dab in the middle of it. A Sunday tournament preserves the Saturday family experience and allows busy people to sling cards without getting female flak.

Also, we will have large contingent's driving from Michigan (Pat Chapin & Co.) and Pennsylvania (from the Pittsburgh area). It's only about a 3 hour drive from both places. Sometimes, West Virginia people also make the trip.

If you are in the Indiana, PA, MI, WV area, it's probably under a 4 hour drive for you.

Part of the draw isn't the prizes, but the practice. Legacy is a blast, but there often aren't alot of Ohio area tournaments with good players. We hope to correct that :)

[hi-val]

Yeah, come on out and bash up Meandeckers all day : ) It'll be a fun event, I can guarantee that. If you're bummed about the prize support, why play legacy at all : D The last event of this kind got 30 people in, so the prize support pool is likely to be $400+ dollars, which is pretty damn good for a nonsanctioned event. The T4 will probably do a cash split anyway in some form.

If you can't make it in under the proxy limit, send me a PM and we'll work something out. We want as many people as possible to come out and give Legacy a shot!

[Getsickanddie]

If you're bummed about the prize support, why play legacy at all : D

You've seen the east coast prize support, right?


Sunday has typically been the best day since people with busy lives (girlfriends, families, etc) don't want to eat up the entire weekend with a Saturday tournament smack dab in the middle of it. A Sunday tournament preserves the Saturday family experience and allows busy people to sling cards without getting female flak.

While this may be true for people that live in the area, a Sunday event is inconvenient for people who are traveling from say Virginia or New York. Personally, the prize support is not enticing enough for me to drive out to Ohio and use vacation time to get Monday off from work. Anyway, I'm sure this event will be a blast, and I hope you guys have a good turnout.

[URABAHN]

Sunday has typically been the best day since people with busy lives (girlfriends, families, etc) don't want to eat up the entire weekend with a Saturday tournament smack dab in the middle of it. A Sunday tournament preserves the Saturday family experience and allows busy people to sling cards without getting female flak.

Part of the draw isn't the prizes, but the practice. Legacy is a blast, but there often aren't alot of Ohio area tournaments with good players. We hope to correct that :)

What if your family experience is watching the pigskin? I'm sure the event will be a fine event, it's just too far and on a poor day to draw numbers from the East Coast.

[socialite]

13 Hour ride from Boston. :frown:

[Swing4Five]

DOPENESS FACTOR * 2

I this initially seems like one of Ray's cool announcement math problems, but it's not.


Dopeness Factor: The greatest integer multiple of 8, no two of whose digits are the same.

And yeah, Boston = no go. :mad:

[hi-val]

Oh yeah I wouldn't expect people to drive from the East Coast for this but if you're within a 4hr drive, it's an entirely enjoyable event to go to. That said, if you're not from Ohio and you're reading this thread, my compliments, it speaks to your willingness to travel to Legacy events : D

We'll be having two more after this, so if the turnout gets to be epic, the prize support will naturally be 100% of that epic.

[yawg07]

I'll more than likely be there. With at least 3 other people :cool:

[Zach Tartell]

DOPENESS FACTOR

Come meet 2007 Magic Worlds finalist PATRICK “The Innovator” CHAPIN! You’ve seen him on the Magic show, you’ve probably read his articles, now come meet the man. Also, check out thenlu.com!

DOPENESS FACTOR * 2

Hang out 2008 Vintage Champ PAUL “Mr. Type 4” MASTRIANO and JOIN IN a giant Type Four game after the tournament at THURMAN’S! YOU MUST try a Thurman Burger:
http://columbusalive.com/2008/best/dining/images/burger-thurman.jpg

Aside from your poor prize structure and un-sanctioned-ness, I find this particularly offensive. Leave dopeness factors to Ray.

LAMENESS FACTOR OF STEALING FUN THINGS:
Imagine a circle with two thousand points along its circumference. Starting at any point and moving clockwise, number them one to two thousand. Then, on point number point one, place the number one. Skip two spots clockwise, and place the number two. Continue in this fashion until you have placed numbers up to 2000.

The lameness factor is equal to the highest integer on the first spot on the circle.

[saspook]

You've seen the east coast prize support, right?


The prize support is 100% of the entry fees in CASH. That sounds pretty reasonable to me.

[Shriekmaw]

The prize support is 100% of the entry fees in CASH. That sounds pretty reasonable to me.


That is incorrect. The prize pool does not equal the entry fee in cash. We don't know what the prize pool will be because of player turnout and what part of the 15 dollars will go into the prize pool.

[Smmenen]

Aside from your poor prize structure and un-sanctioned-ness, I find this particularly offensive. Leave dopeness factors to Ray.

Ray is a friend of mine. If you are offended, I suggest you grow up. There many other things that cause offense aside from my borrowing Ray's phraseology, like Janet Jackson's nipple.

[hi-val]

That is incorrect. The prize pool does not equal the entry fee in cash. We don't know what the prize pool will be because of player turnout and what part of the 15 dollars will go into the prize pool.

I have never seen the prize pool below $200, and it often goes much higher.

As far as what the prize pool is, I'm pretty sure it defaults to a certain prize amount and then goes up; in Ohio, it's illegal to charge a rake because then it's gambling, so it's not like a set % comes out of every entry fee. It's a lot more generous than that and a lot more generous than offering cards of lower value in its place.

If you want to talk trash about a juicy prize structure (this is the only event I can think of that actually hands out cash) about an event you're not attending, why are you reading this thread/posting in this thread?

In the future, I suggest the following form post for threads like these: "sweet, another Legacy tournament! I hope the T8 gets posted and everyone has fun."

There, isn't that more friendly and mature?

[Getsickanddie]

If you want to talk trash about a juicy prize structure (this is the only event I can think of that actually hands out cash) about an event you're not attending, why are you reading this thread/posting in this thread?

Sensitive much? I don't see how anything Nick said could be considered "talking trash".

Also, plenty of events give out cash. I know Ray offers a cash option, and we have events like this in NY. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8854&highlight=%241000)

[TeenieBopper]

I have never seen the prize pool below $200, and it often goes much higher.

As far as what the prize pool is, I'm pretty sure it defaults to a certain prize amount and then goes up; in Ohio, it's illegal to charge a rake because then it's gambling, so it's not like a set % comes out of every entry fee. It's a lot more generous than that and a lot more generous than offering cards of lower value in its place.

If you want to talk trash about a juicy prize structure (this is the only event I can think of that actually hands out cash) about an event you're not attending, why are you reading this thread/posting in this thread?

In the future, I suggest the following form post for threads like these: "sweet, another Legacy tournament! I hope the T8 gets posted and everyone has fun."

There, isn't that more friendly and mature?

1. There's a difference between saying "First place is 60% of prize pool" and "First place is 60% of collected entry fees." That's what Nick was trying to point out.

2. I think the prize support is setting people off not because it's bad, but because it's so top heavy. I think Bryant had a decent enough idea of 50, 25, 12.5, 12.5. Figuring out a way to extend to top 8 would be even better.

3. I rarely see a Legacy event that doesn't have at least a cash prize option. Don't think you're special.

[Bryant Cook]

a juicy prize structure

I seriously hope this is a joke. The prize structure isn't worth driving more than 2 hours for yet alone 4 from other states. Top 3 prizes? All good events extend to top 8. Decent events atleast go to top 4. But Top 3? It's just weak.

[emidln]

For what it's worth I really wish I was closer to Columbus. I don't have any problem with a top-heavy prize structure (I think it encourages people to play it out instead of the awful four and eight way splits) but I simply can't find anyone to make the 5.5-6 hour drive with me. Smmenen/hi-val, are there any plans for a combined vintage/legacy Meandeck open in the coming months? A whole weekend of Eternal magic would definitely be something worth driving through Indiana for.

I'm not quite sure what the unsanctioned problem is. Perhaps it's because I come from a Vintage background that I'm okay with it, but I'd much rather drive to play against the best players playing the best decks they can think up.

[hi-val]

I seriously hope this is a joke. The prize structure isn't worth driving more than 2 hours for yet alone 4 from other states. Top 3 prizes? All good events extend to top 8. Decent events atleast go to top 4. But Top 3? It's just weak.

We'll be having more of these events and we're certainly open to suggestions from players about them to make them better! Personally, I'd like to see a 4th place prize myself. I'd like it to splash down to 5th through 8th with enough players as well, but it's kinda hard for me to think of how to do that without changing higher prizes if we get more people and not giving out something laughable like $4 to 8th place. I'm hoping I wrote that in an understandable fashion. Anyway, if you've got a good suggestion, we'd be amenable to it-- would something like packs from 5th to 8th if there are X number of people there for a future tournament be more amenable?

We'd like to offer cards and stuff as prizes (which is what the door prizes will be) but most of the time people opt for the cash anyway.

TeenieBopper:

1. Understandable, which is why I explained further about Ohio's antigambling laws prohibiting taking a portion of the entry fee and an example about past prize pools. I hope this clears up confusion.

2. Again, we'd be open to suggestions for the next two events we'll be holding before the GP.

3. Aww, come on, my mom thinks I'm really clever.

Bryant Cook: also, understandable, if you evaluate tournament prize support as the main reason to go to events. For me, it's a good motivator, for sure, but there are also other good reasons to go to events (which is worth talking about at another time or reading Nightmare's article on it). Other good reasons include playing with very technically skilled players in preparation for the GP(think of playing against Steve and Paul Mastriano piloting storm decks!), eating Thurmanator burgers afterwards, playing T4 with Patrick Chapin, etc.

I, of course, cannot make any guarantees but the last time we had an event, I think we had 38 players and a pool of around $500. Some quick calcuations show that to be around $12.50 a player out of a door entry of $15. Some quick calculations showed that TML4's prize pool was between $12-$17 out of $25 per player, so draw inferences from that as you will. Ray has great tournaments and great prize support and has different overhead costs and does a great job of hosting his events. I'd like to think we're offering a prize support commensurate with what he offers. My mathematics could also be completely wrong.

Aside from other special things like beating my ass in Magic, this is also one of the first Legacy events I've seen in Ohio in a long time and that's a Martha-level Good Thing. If this event isn't to your liking, send/post suggestions for what would encourage you to come to the one after this one!

Oh, and edit: we're doing proxies for this event so people can play basically anything they think is good and so people who are interested in getting into Legacy can dip their feet into the format. Again, if you are going to have trouble meeting the 20 proxy limit, talk to me about it and we'll make sure things happen so you can play anything you want!

[Gibbie_X]

I, for one, will attempt to be there. I sent you a PM, that's pretty much about what you were requesting. By the way, I would like to volunteer my service for set up and clean up if I can play the tourney free?:tongue:

also, do you get you prizes from Wizards? Well, I guess that would require knowing some who has access to retail.

[Smmenen]

For what it's worth I really wish I was closer to Columbus. I don't have any problem with a top-heavy prize structure (I think it encourages people to play it out instead of the awful four and eight way splits) but I simply can't find anyone to make the 5.5-6 hour drive with me. Smmenen/hi-val, are there any plans for a combined vintage/legacy Meandeck open in the coming months? A whole weekend of Eternal magic would definitely be something worth driving through Indiana for.


That was actually the plan. Unfortunately, our store has about 45 Yu-Gi-Oh players in the store on Saturday until around 6pm. If we held a full weekend of Eternal, one of the tournaments would have to begin Sat. evening. We felt that would be too inconvenient.




I'm not quite sure what the unsanctioned problem is. Perhaps it's because I come from a Vintage background that I'm okay with it, but I'd much rather drive to play against the best players playing the best decks they can think up.

Exactly. I mean, who cares about a few sanctioned points? -- it's nothing compared to the cash money that will be awarded at Grand Prix: Chicago. The point of this tournament is to give people the best preparation for that tournament.

[URABAHN]

If this event isn't to your liking, send/post suggestions for what would encourage you to come to the one after this one!

Prize support for Top 8, Sunday is terrible, DCI Sanctioned, ZERO proxies. It's awfully hard to compete with the Jupiter Games tournament this weekend and Winter Wonderland in January. Not to mention a bunch of these readers just got back from Connecticut. When you run a tournament, you've got to consider what you're up against. Also, running a tournament on a Sunday excludes most people who work M-F. Taking a vacation day for the Monday after a tournament that doesn't have Top 8 Prize Support and isn't sanctioned simply isn't worth it (more for the former, than the latter).

[yankeedave]

Wow - all I can say is wow!

Thanks to Meandeck for putting in the effort to put a Tournament together.

To all those who want to rip on it, you remind me of Mercenarybdu, he whines when we get any Wizards love, and you lot aren't any better.

Props to Meandeck for promoting a format that isnt the format they are famous for playing in.

[Kilz88]

I will very likely be there. The 20 proxy thing will be quite interesting. But see you guys there.

[crazyroundman]

I will very likely be there. The 20 proxy thing will be quite interesting. But see you guys there.

For serious - I'd love to see somebody play 43 land with the only proxies being the non-land cards (on land cards).

That'd be freaking hilarious.

[hi-val]

Prize support for Top 8, Sunday is terrible, DCI Sanctioned, ZERO proxies. It's awfully hard to compete with the Jupiter Games tournament this weekend and Winter Wonderland in January. Not to mention a bunch of these readers just got back from Connecticut. When you run a tournament, you've got to consider what you're up against. Also, running a tournament on a Sunday excludes most people who work M-F. Taking a vacation day for the Monday after a tournament that doesn't have Top 8 Prize Support and isn't sanctioned simply isn't worth it (more for the former, than the latter).

We'd like to put in most of those things as we do further events, and our last event before the GP WILL be no proxy, sanctioned. Steve explained why we're doing unsanctioned right now so I'll just default to his post : ) TO add on to it, for this event we wanted it to be like a lab or testing ground where people could play what they wanted and try out new things without worrying about lowering their rating and losing byes. To be fair, we aren't expecting this to be like a 100 man event that people drive from Philly to attend, but it's a good event if you're in the midwest and mandatory if you're in Ohio : ) Unfortunately, the store we run it in has Yu Gi Oh events every Saturday that subsidize magic events on Sundays.

We're thinking about making the last event into a GPT; anyone know the specifics on how to get one of those arranged?

[Anusien]

I would strongly suggest having a 3/4 payout. Otherwise somebody that makes T4 will get nothing (unless there's a split) or you force a 3/4 playoff (the worst).

If you're interested in running a GPT check with the Chicago-area PTO who is running the GPT; if it's not them they can point you to the right person within Wizards (probably Linda Roberts).

[herbig]

[SNIP] Moved to PMs. - NC
I won't be attending because it's on a Sunday. I actually think this is a jab at organized religion. Do you hate Catholics? Not that I'm Catholic, I just don't like going out on Sundays.

It being in Ohio is also very xenophobic, since I couldn't possibly travel that far anyway.

[hi-val]

And since the recent trend is magic players dressing up when they play, I'll be offering some kind of door prize to the best-dressed person at the event; you'll have to beat Brian DeMars, Patrick Chapin and me, though...

[Anusien]

And since the recent trend is magic players dressing up when they play, I'll be offering some kind of door prize to the best-dressed person at the event; you'll have to beat Brian DeMars, Patrick Chapin and me, though...
This is an awesome trend. Magic would get so much more respect if when you walked into a room of players you saw people in suits and ties instead of 400 pound men in skimpy Sailor Moon costumes.

[Nightmare]

This is an awesome trend. Magic would get so much more respect if when you walked into a room of players you saw people in suits and ties instead of 400 pound men in skimpy Sailor Moon costumes.

At the very least, less stupid wizard hats.

[Captain Hammer]

Thanks guys. I'll be in Columbus and will make the tourney.

My question...

Do you guys play legacy in Columbus at the Soidary (or someplace each week).

I would love to join in a regular weekly game of legacy or type 4 or something.

Please PM me if you do.

Thank you so much.

[Smmenen]

Thanks guys. I'll be in Columbus and will make the tourney.

My question...

Do you guys play legacy in Columbus at the Soidary (or someplace each week).

I would love to join in a regular weekly game of legacy or type 4 or something.

Please PM me if you do.

Thank you so much.

To be honest, I'm not sure! My guess is that you'll meet a bunch of people interested in doing just that. This will be your opportunity to get a regular legacy scene off the ground!

I'm really looking forward to this tournament. Patrick Chapin is bringing down a huge Michigan crew with him, including, the rumor has it, the inimitable and venerable St. Brian DeMars, who will be requesting anyone who is interested in battling him in Peasant Highlander after the tournament or between rounds.

Rules!
1. Minimum 150 card deck.
2. Legacy Banned list.
3. Any card that has been only printed as a Rare is Banned.
4. Cards that have been printed as an Uncommon and a Rare are legal (since they haven't been printed exclusively as a rare.
5. Sets that do not actually have rares, and use the U1, U2, U3, rarity system, since they don't technically have rares are not banned. (These sets are Arabian Nights, Antiquities, The Dark, Homelands, Fallen Empires, and Chronicles).

[Brad Herbig]

I am seriously considering attending this tournament. I do with the prize support could extend to the Top 8 though, even if its like cheaper legacy staples for the lower half. That could help those who do need the proxies to play, and can help encourage newer players to stick with legacy.

[Smmenen]

I am seriously considering attending this tournament. I do with the prize support could extend to the Top 8 though, even if its like cheaper legacy staples for the lower half. That could help those who do need the proxies to play, and can help encourage newer players to stick with legacy.

I assure you it is worth it to attend this tournament just to eat the Thurman burger afterward. It was recently named the best burger in Columbus, again.

If you can finish the entire burger, you are allowed to sign a dollar bill and pin it to their wall!

[freakish777]

In my opinion, T8 payout should never be less top heavy than the following:

1st: 26.667%
2nd: 20%
3rd & 4th: 13.333%
5th-8th: 6.667%

Think of it this way, player's A through H all make T8 and their "strategy/skill/luck/etc" at that moment in time are all recognized as being worth 1. When they beat an opponent in that round, that opponent's value is still the same, but we know know that the "value" of the winning player is worth at least their current value + 1 for beating another opponent.

Round 1: A(1) vs. B(1), C(1) vs. D(1), E(1) vs. F(1), G(1) vs. H(1)
Round 2: A(2) vs. C(2), E(2) vs. G(2)
Round 3: A(3) vs. E(3)
Winner: A(4).

So our final values are A(4), E(3), C(2), G(2), B(1), D(1), F(1) and H(1).

So a player is worth "him/herself" + the number of opponents he/she beats in elimination rounds. We acknowledge that Player A didn't actually play against player H, and therefore no points of Player H's can be contributed towards Player A's value.

Further, a T8 payout should never be more top heavy than the following:

1st: 40%
2nd: 20%
3rd & 4th: 10%
5th - 8th: 5%

Under this payout, in each round you're taking the beaten player's current value (as opposed to original value) and add it to the winning player's current value.

It would look like:

Round 1: A(1) vs. B(1), C(1) vs. D(1), E(1) vs. F(1), G(1) vs. H(1)
Round 2: A(2) vs. C(2), E(2) vs. G(2)
Round 3: A(4) vs. E(4)
Winner: A(8).

Player A beats player B, and adds B's current value to his/her own (going to 2). Player A beats player C and adds C's current value to his/her own (going to 4). Etc. Here we're essentially saying "Because Player A beat player C, we believe they would have beat player D as well." Because this game isn't 100% skill, we know that isn't necessarily true. When it comes to elimination rounds anything heavier than a logrithmic payout is questionable in my opinion as it would appear you're now rewarding luck more than skill.


I think the first payout is almost entirely acceptable to everyone involved. Say 40 people show up at $15 a person, your expenses are $100 (1/6th), and the prize pool is $500. The winner walks away with $133.33, second $100, third and fourth $66.66, and everyone else gets $33.33. Now this probably would encourage first and second place to split, so if you're interested in getting everyone to play it out, going to the 40, 20, 10, 10, 5, 5, 5, 5 payout gives you payouts of: $200, $100, $50, $50, $25, $25, $25, $25. 5th-8th walk away content thinking "Hey I got my entry fee and gas money back," and 2nd through 4th walk away happy, and 1st walks away ecstatic. The drawback is that if attendance is half (and expenses are still only 1/6th somehow) 5th-8th don't even get their money back, where as under the 26, 20, 13, 6, 6, 6, 6 system they just barely make their money back.

[Ssbm Rocks1]

My friend and I will be coming up from Cincinnati, we'll see if we can get anyone from our locals to go. Just starting Legacy(obviously, first post), we'll see if we can't get decks together in 3 weeks. :D I'd like to see prizes extend down to at least 4th, not that I'm going to win anything anyways.
Do you guys have a website?

[herbig]

I am seriously considering attending this tournament. I do with the prize support could extend to the Top 8 though, even if its like cheaper legacy staples for the lower half. That could help those who do need the proxies to play, and can help encourage newer players to stick with legacy.

Herbigs only ever take first anyways Bradly.

[Brad Herbig]

Herbigs only ever take first anyways Bradly.

So that's the reason you can't come. Both Herbigs can't take first place. Unless we were to split 1st and 2nd. I guess that would work. We can do that next time. :)

[hi-val]

To be honest, I'm not sure! My guess is that you'll meet a bunch of people interested in doing just that. This will be your opportunity to get a regular legacy scene off the ground!

I'm really looking forward to this tournament. Patrick Chapin is bringing down a huge Michigan crew with him, including, the rumor has it, the inimitable and venerable St. Brian DeMars, who will be requesting anyone who is interested in battling him in Peasant Highlander after the tournament or between rounds.

Rules!
1. Minimum 150 card deck.
2. Legacy Banned list.
3. Any card that has been only printed as a Rare is Banned.
4. Cards that have been printed as an Uncommon and a Rare are legal (since they haven't been printed exclusively as a rare.
5. Sets that do not actually have rares, and use the U1, U2, U3, rarity system, since they don't technically have rares are not banned. (These sets are Arabian Nights, Antiquities, The Dark, Homelands, Fallen Empires, and Chronicles).

Wanted to bump this format up too. I'll have a deck for it, I hope other people bring them too! I'm looking forward to what this format can do.

[Patrick]

Sometimes I have to say things nobody wants me to say.

First, the proxy thing is stupid. Almost none of the cards in this format are worth proxy-ing. This only serves to let people proxy Underground Seas and Lions-Eye Diamonds or whatever so they can play some stupid deck they'd never play at a real event. Why not take Solidarity, you can proxy the Resets. This is going to warp the metagame more than you realize.

Second, I wish people would stop saying that if you live in the midwest you must attend this. It's just not true.

Next. Someone has to start this ball rolling: Magic "celebrities" is the stupidest fucking concept ever. Why so many people give a shit about Pat Chapin is beyond me. He's done well at the game. So have many other people. In particular let's look at Patrick's list for Legacy Elves!:http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21876

Seeing this, it's apparent that Patrick knows next to nothing about this format. 30 of the cards in this deck cost 1 mana. Counter-top can out this deck without trying. I'm getting quite off topic here. Sorry Patrick.

Look at this from an average Legacy players perspective. I (the average Legacy player) live 2-4 hours away from this event. While I'm skilled in the game, chances are I won't make it into the top 3 places. I already own all of the cards I want, or have easy access to them, so this Proxy rule does nothing but harm my chances. Not that I care about rating, but this does nothing for that either. When I show up I'm surely going to overhear some obnoxious loud Magic Pro talking about how some card is hugely underrated, or how good Krosan Grip is. Snore.

A side note about Vintage players. They're usually bad, BAD at Legacy unless they spend a significant amount of time playing the format. Legacy is not Vintage-lite. The decks and playable cards are very different. While Storm combo is the usual way to win in Vintage (sometimes), it's not that good in Legacy. The aggro deck is king here, not control.


Oh yeah, back to the topic. Why hold a tournament and then hype it up when the same thing could be coordinated online via Workstation or Apprentice? If we get to use fake cards, we might as well do it in the comfort of our own home.

I've totally lost my thought process at this point. In summary, this is a dumb idea and "Magic celebs" are retarded.

[yawg07]

ROFL, don't cry too much, now.
Oh no! The people get to write Underground Sea on lands and they are gonna fucking wreck my chances!
Shut up, go there, and play.

[Afro]

Sometimes I have to say things nobody wants me to say.

First, the proxy thing is stupid. Almost none of the cards in this format are worth proxy-ing. This only serves to let people proxy Underground Seas and Lions-Eye Diamonds or whatever so they can play some stupid deck they'd never play at a real event. Why not take Solidarity, you can proxy the Resets. This is going to warp the metagame more than you realize.

Second, I wish people would stop saying that if you live in the midwest you must attend this. It's just not true.

Next. Someone has to start this ball rolling: Magic "celebrities" is the stupidest fucking concept ever. Why so many people give a shit about Pat Chapin is beyond me. He's done well at the game. So have many other people. In particular let's look at Patrick's list for Legacy Elves!:http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21876

Seeing this, it's apparent that Patrick knows next to nothing about this format. 30 of the cards in this deck cost 1 mana. Counter-top can out this deck without trying. I'm getting quite off topic here. Sorry Patrick.

Look at this from an average Legacy players perspective. I (the average Legacy player) live 2-4 hours away from this event. While I'm skilled in the game, chances are I won't make it into the top 3 places. I already own all of the cards I want, or have easy access to them, so this Proxy rule does nothing but harm my chances. Not that I care about rating, but this does nothing for that either. When I show up I'm surely going to overhear some obnoxious loud Magic Pro talking about how some card is hugely underrated, or how good Krosan Grip is. Snore.

A side note about Vintage players. They're usually bad, BAD at Legacy unless they spend a significant amount of time playing the format. Legacy is not Vintage-lite. The decks and playable cards are very different. While Storm combo is the usual way to win in Vintage (sometimes), it's not that good in Legacy. The aggro deck is king here, not control.


Oh yeah, back to the topic. Why hold a tournament and then hype it up when the same thing could be coordinated online via Workstation or Apprentice? If we get to use fake cards, we might as well do it in the comfort of our own home.

I've totally lost my thought process at this point. In summary, this is a dumb idea and "Magic celebs" are retarded.

This post is the best one I've seen on this site in some time. Well done sir.

One thing you've missed is that not only is the average Vintage player bad at Legacy, but the average Legacy player is bad at Legacy. Two local good T2 players recently took up Legacy simply because they can run this format straight to top8s for free prize/money. In the month and a half in the 2 tournaments they have played in they have 2 wins (1 of which was Mana Leak Open day 1), a top 4, and a 9th on tie breakers. I honestly believe the average T2/Extended player is leaps above the average Legacy player.

I am in no way saying I'm a great player, merely a decent player whose shitty deck choice and infrequent playing lead to misplays and less than stellar results.

I also must agree with Patrick in that people need to get off of Pro's dicks. They are better than you at a card game. That does not mean you need to get on your knees.

Proxies - I agree with Samite Healer on TMD in that while Proxies eventually helped the T1 tournament scene become huge it lead to people having the ability to proxy 20+ cards and the power given out as prize is no longer needed and then leads to no one giving a shit about payout other than a cash option. I may be alone on this but I'd rather play for pimp cards then cash. I honestly don't know why. I can understand that people want to test stuff for the upcoming GP in a tournament setting and they may not have all the cards, but people have friends and MWS for a reason. Doesn't MWS have a semi regularly Legacy Tournament on some site?

I hate to dog ANYONE putting on a tournament for the community, but please do it right so that the community will grow. It comes off alarming to me anytime I look into attending a tournament when the TO is advertising other shit (meet this pro, eat at this amazing restaurant, play this fun alternate format) as opposed to the actual tournament.

[yawg07]

I can see both of your guys points, I suppose.
I'm drinking so I may have been harsh lol

But I don't personally care about proxies, let people expirement in a real tourney setting.
MWS and testing with friends is nothing like a real tourney. I'd be happy to see some new decks rise up, myself.
Don't stifle creativity, just because the method for achieving it is out of the norm.

But yes, "celebrities" ? Gay.

[herbig]

stuff

Obvious forum trolling. I started writing a response until I thought "nah, he's not that naive." Too transparent bro, try again next time.


This post is the best one I've seen on this site in some time. Well done sir.

Totally duped. Another notch on the wall, he almost got me too.


It comes off alarming to me anytime I look into attending a tournament when the TO is advertising other shit (meet this pro, eat at this amazing restaurant, play this fun alternate format) as opposed to the actual tournament.

For anyone that feel they aren't likely to do well, the extra stuff is the actual tournament. It's all supposed to contribute to a really great time with the community playing the game we all love. If you don't think you can place, then how come all you want to hear about are the prizes?

[Smmenen]

Sometimes I have to say things nobody wants me to say.

First, the proxy thing is stupid. Almost none of the cards in this format are worth proxy-ing.



LOL!

If the goal is to grow the format and ease non-Legacy players into the format, then NOT proxying is stupid!

You do not understand the purpose of proxies. The purpose of proxies is not a recognition that some cards are "worth proxy-ing" (your term), whatever that means. The purpose is to get local players, who do not own many legacy cards, into the format.

We intend to hold three tournaments. The first two will have proxies, and the third will be sanctioned. '

In any case, what the heck does it mean to have cards that are "worth" proxying. Even if you could define it, how would you measure it?




This only serves to let people proxy Underground Seas and Lions-Eye Diamonds or whatever so they can play some stupid deck they'd never play at a real event.



LOLOL!

"ONLY SERVES"! Hyperbole much! No, silly! It SERVES to let people play cards they do not own so that they can play the format!

"Only serves" - give me a break. If you are going to speak in RIDICULOUS hyperbole, don't post!




Why not take Solidarity, you can proxy the Resets. This is going to warp the metagame more than you realize.

Why do you assume that it will warp the metagame more than I realize? You seriously underestimate my powers of planning. MANY things warp metagames. In fact, to have a warped metagame, there has to be some sort of baseline from which to warp!

In any case, here is why we justify it: it's better to have a 30 player warped metagame than an 11 player accurate metagame.

You assume WAY too much when you think that it will warp the metagame more than "I realize." You, clearly, don't know what I realize, nor do you have really anything to base such an assertion on.




Second, I wish people would stop saying that if you live in the midwest you must attend this. It's just not true.



Saying something is not true does not make it false! Since when are bald assertions testament of fact? NEVER! You didn't even bother to present a single reason in support of your assertion! Good logic, sir!

It's pretty simple, and I'm not surprised you don't understand, sadly:

If you wish to attend GP Chicago and get excellent practice for the Grand Prix, you couldn't have a better place to test!

I am very serious about pwning people at GP Chicago, and I know many others are as well. We all want to win some decent money on Wizard dime. Who doesn't? Well, if you want to get some excellent tournament practice against people LIKELY To be at the Grand Prix, this is a golden opportunity.




Next. Someone has to start this ball rolling: Magic "celebrities" is the stupidest fucking concept ever.

Wow! you are angry!

Actually, Magic celebrities, while totally off-topic, are NOT the stupidest thing ever. In fact, to say that Magic celebrities are the stupidiest thing ever might be the stupidest thing ever.

Do you know how many utterly ridiculous things in the world there are that are FAR stupider?

In any case, given the domain of stupidest things, it's pretty much impossible for something which actually has a reason behind to be the stupidest thing.

In the first place, having celebrities and a celebrity culture is something that Wizards has long fostered. The reason is simple, and obviously since you don't understand it, I will explain!

Wizards markets Magic with the Pro Tour. The Pro Tour gives away TONS of money every year. In order to generate that money, Wizards raises money holding PTQs and other tournaments. Promoting celebrities is a way for Wizards to accomplish SEVERAL important goals.

1) It draws attention to the Pro Tour, which creates even more interest in PTQs

2) It allows Wizards to continue to market its products in other ways, but having magic 'celebrities' write, publish, interact and generate further interest in Magic. Those articles sell more cards and generate more tournament interest.

I had the amazing fortune to play on the 2007 Magic Invitational (thanks to the support of the Vintage AND Legacy communities -- proving that non-pros can compete on the Invitational), and I can tell you that there were dozens and dozens of observant players who I had an opportunity to gunsling with. Evan Erwin has been a GIANT boon for Magic.

Those are only TWO reasons for the magic celebrity, but there are many more. Think about the Invitational and the Magic Hall of Fame.

Clearly, something that has reasons for them (even if, in your view, they are bad reasons), cannot POSSIBLY be the "stupidest thing ever."




Why so many people give a shit about Pat Chapin is beyond me. He's done well at the game. So have many other people. In particular let's look at Patrick's list for Legacy Elves!:http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21876

Seeing this, it's apparent that Patrick knows next to nothing about this format. 30 of the cards in this deck cost 1 mana. Counter-top can out this deck without trying. I'm getting quite off topic here. Sorry Patrick.



I mean, it's pretty much a leap in logic to say : Patrick Chapin build a bad deck, why would people care about him? That's ridiculous!




Look at this from an average Legacy players perspective. I (the average Legacy player) live 2-4 hours away from this event.



That's true. If you don't have a car, see if you can carpool!




While I'm skilled in the game, chances are I won't make it into the top 3 places.



Well, I have good news for you!

Given the repeated suggestion that we extend prizes to fourth place, we have heard your call!

We are going to re-adjust the prizes through fourth place. The owner has suggested:

1st: 50%
2nd: 25%
3rd: 12.5%
4th: 12.5%

Let me know what you think of that and we'll do it!




I already own all of the cards I want, or have easy access to them, so this Proxy rule does nothing but harm my chances. Not that I care about rating, but this does nothing for that either.



Actually, your hyperbole and overgeneralization is wrong again.

The proxy rule will increase the turnout, which will increase the prize pool, which will increase the value of making top 4. If you make top 4, then proxies will have earned you more money!

Second, proxies, by increasing the turnout, will increase the value of the tournament by having more players come out.

In any case, and this is a recurring point, let me address something:

To me, and to many other players, the prize payout is irrellevant. It's a token gesture.

The point of these tournaments is NOT to go win $150 dollars. You could do that by working at Wal-Mart all day.

The point of the tournaments is to have FUN playing a format we enjoy, AND to prepare for a tournament where GOOD money is going to be awarded. The EXPERIENCE is more important than the money.

If you don't value the experience, well, that's fine, but it could help you prepare for GP Chicago.




When I show up I'm surely going to overhear some obnoxious loud Magic Pro talking about how some card is hugely underrated, or how good Krosan Grip is. Snore.



???!??

What on earth are you talking about? SURELY going to overhear? That's hilarious! I doubt that you'd overhear some rant by a pro player about how card XYZ is over or under-rated. that's a bold prediction!




Oh yeah, back to the topic. Why hold a tournament and then hype it up when the same thing could be coordinated online via Workstation or Apprentice? If we get to use fake cards, we might as well do it in the comfort of our own home.



No offense dude, but you don't sound like a very experienced tournament player. If you were, you would understand that there is a huge difference between playing online and playing in person.

In-person magic features literally dozens of elements from bluffs, tells, reads, etc that are not present in online environments, not to mention the very different deck and card choices. In any case, Grand Prix Chicago will be a paper tournament, which means that the best preparation for it will also be paper. Tournament metagames are complex systems and it is important to see that system in operation in person since those elements need to be observed.




I've totally lost my thought process at this point. In summary, this is a dumb idea and "Magic celebs" are retarded.

Yeah, people shouldn't hold Legacy tournaments and try to generate interest in the format! How stupid of me!

A review of your post reveals numerous leaps in logic, unfounded claims, and extreme hyperbole/overgeneralizations.

You also, obviously, fail to understand what tournaments are all about.

This tournament is about BUILDING legacy in the midwest. We LOVE legacy. We want to see it do well. We support Wizards supporting Legacy, and we want to give Mid-west legacy players a chance to compete against some great magic players and prepare themselves for the Grand Prix.

Let's do it!

[Anusien]

The point of proxies is that you can tournament test some deck without having to buy all the cards. Why spend $100 on Tabernacles before you know if the deck is any good? This is a chance for testing in real tournament conditions.

[hi-val]

Aside from it not being written in Chapin's usual style, I'm pretty close to thinking the guy trolling actually is Patrick Chapin : ) Herbig is right, whoever it is can troll pretty well.

[Swing4Five]

If that was a troll he just hit the JACKPOT with Steve's post.

And Steve, the LOLOL's are an eyesore on your usual awesome-to-read, logic-fueled rebuttals.

[URABAHN]

The point of proxies is that you can tournament test some deck without having to buy all the cards. Why spend $100 on Tabernacles before you know if the deck is any good? This is a chance for testing in real tournament conditions.

I play in a casual Eternal League that allows proxies and even then I hate 'em. The #1 problem with proxies is there is no formal standard for them.

If you print out or photocopy a proxy...

how big should it be?
what resoluction/dpi should you use?
should it be in color?
should you use a card editor and use the current wording?

If you write on a card...

should you use a sharpie or a pen?
what's the standard for legibility?
should it have the current wording?
AND card type?
AND casting cost?
AND color?

Most importantly, who's going to check all this and what are the consequences for failing to do so?

[Smmenen]

I play in a casual Eternal League that allows proxies and even then I hate 'em. The #1 problem with proxies is there is no formal standard for them.

If you print out or photocopy a proxy...

how big should it be?
what resoluction/dpi should you use?
should it be in color?
should you use a card editor and use the current wording?

If you write on a card...

should you use a sharpie or a pen?
what's the standard for legibility?
should it have the current wording?
AND card type?
AND casting cost?
AND color?

Most importantly, who's going to check all this and what are the consequences for failing to do so?

Ah, but there is!

http://forums.starcitygames.com/viewtopic.php?t=291560

SCG's standards are probably the best if you are looking for a hard and fast, uniform standard.

[herbig]

This post is the best one I've seen on this site in some time. Well done sir.

I can't stop laughing every time I see this. I can not stop laughing.



All this Legacy buzz is going to be a lot of fun. It really makes me wish I wasn't stuck laying in my hammock listening to NPR and pretending to be saving the world. If anyone wants to fly me in for this I promise to bring some sick pasalubong.

[Patrick]

Steve wrote: What on earth are you talking about? SURELY going to overhear? That's hilarious! I doubt that you'd overhear some rant by a pro player about how card XYZ is over or under-rated. that's a bold prediction!


I hear this almost every time I walk into RIW and some "pros" are sitting at the table talking about how awesome CARDNAME is in some format. It's obnoxious at the very least.



I'll concede any sort of argument before it even starts. It was a poorly written post though I suspect you learned the word hyperbole this week in class, or you've been reading Calvin and Hobbes.

[DeathwingZERO]

the proxy thing is stupid. Almost none of the cards in this format are worth proxy-ing. This only serves to let people proxy Underground Seas and Lions-Eye Diamonds or whatever so they can play some stupid deck they'd never play at a real event.....This is going to warp the metagame more than you realize......While I'm skilled in the game, chances are I won't make it into the top 3 places. I already own all of the cards I want, or have easy access to them, so this Proxy rule does nothing but harm my chances.

While I'm not really following this thread that much because I don't plan on going, this is something I really felt the need to respond to.

This sounds exactly like the same garbage I've always heard from anybody who either had too much money invested in their Power in Vintage, or the people who had absolutely no play skill and won solely on their checkbook. Either way, it's more QQ coming from people who have no reason to believe they have a chance at standings anyway. Just because Vintage is known to allow proxies for the sake of money/scarcity doesn't mean it's correct in relating Legacy to it as if it's trying something that only Vintage has rights to. Legacy needs just as much help getting running as Vintage did when Power wasn't all over eBay, and this is going to get more people to actually look at the format, rather than downright shun it.

Allowing proxies will "warp" ONE tournament. OH NOES!!! You know what, let's just say that having the proxies allowed now creates a DtB, because someone was able to play something they've been testing for months, but couldn't afford yet. Are you going to argue that said deck is completely invalid because the person that brought it didn't even own the cards? You'd get laughed out of any tournament you ever went to for the rest of your playing days.

Second, who cares what someone brings to the tournament? If you had ANY confidence in yourself whatsoever (which already seems lacking from the post), it shouldn't matter if everyone else in the place had 60proxies.dec, because in this format it's all about play skill and knowledge of the format. Knowing what hate to expect with Ichorid or tuning slots in Survival's toolbox are far more important than your opponent not having enough time to hunt down their Tabernacle or Lion's Eye Diamond.

Saying no to proxies basically says that if you cannot own the cards for various reasons, you don't deserve to play them. You know what, go tell everyone that's borrowing cards from friends that they can't use them, because they didn't come out of their collection.

By the way, good luck with that.

[Smmenen]

Steve wrote: What on earth are you talking about? SURELY going to overhear? That's hilarious! I doubt that you'd overhear some rant by a pro player about how card XYZ is over or under-rated. that's a bold prediction!


I hear this almost every time I walk into RIW and some "pros" are sitting at the table talking about how awesome CARDNAME is in some format. It's obnoxious at the very least.



Just because you hear something at RIW doesn't mean you will hear it in Columbus.

In any case, even if you were to hear comments like that, how is that any less annoying than the pervasive magic 'slang' or any other number of much greater annoyances? It seems like a very trivial thing to get hung up on.




I'll concede any sort of argument before it even starts. It was a poorly written post


You fooled someone who said it was one of the best posts they'd seen in some time.




though I suspect you learned the word hyperbole this week in class, or you've been reading Calvin and Hobbes.

LOL. I can't say whether you honestly "suspect" that, but I think it just goes to show that you should not go into any line of work in which your hunches or suspicion plays a prominent role, and in fact explains most of your earlier post.

I graduated from college nearly 7 years ago. Nor have I been reading Calvin and Hobbes recently.

Also: what DeathwingZERO said.

[Nightmare]

Nor have I been reading Calvin and Hobbes recently.
Completely off topic. Steve, go read Calvin and Hobbes. It's still awesome.

[Getsickanddie]

The only problem I see with the whole Magic celebrities thing is that you guys aren't flying Mike Herbig in for this event. I don't know who those other "celebrities" are, but with a Mike Herbig appearance you wouldn't even have to give out prizes.

[herbig]

with a Mike Herbig appearance you wouldn't even have to give out prizes.

So true, so true. Unfortunately I'm still stuck in this godforsaken third world country doing the good work of the American government. Even as I type this here at Starbucks I can only dream of the day I will once again be reunited with my magical cards, after I have saved the world of course. Anyway, my coffee is getting cold and I've gotta continue checking Facebook for hot girls.

[Smmenen]

The first post has been modified to reflect two things:

1) We have extended the prize pool to 4th place, as requested.

We SERIOUSLY considered the requests to extend prizes to all of top 8, but we felt that we didn't want to guarantee more than we could afford. If the turnout is great, we will do that when we hold Legacy again in the future.

2) $200 cash minimum prize payout. So there will be cash available even if 9 people show up.


The buzz on this is HUGE. It's shaping up to be THE Legacy tournament of the midwest this month.

Let me or Hi-Val know if you have any questions!

[yawg07]

I will certainly be there with the new prize levels now, probably with 3-4 others.
Gotta get my mom to let me borrow the Matrix, 4-5 people an MR2 does NOT haul. XD

[Mr.C]

I will certainly be there with the new prize levels now, probably with 3-4 others.
Gotta get my mom to let me borrow the Matrix, 4-5 people an MR2 does NOT haul. XD

If they are short and frail, yes, easily. Depends on how old it is, tho =D

[Smmenen]

There is less than a week 'til this tournament!

The buzz has been IN-SANE. A number of people have messaged me and told me that they are really looking forward to this event.

If the turnout is what it looks like it might be, the prize pool is going to be ridiculous.

See you in a week!

- Stephen

[Smmenen]

This thing is tomorrow!!!! YOWZA!!!

I will try to post top 8 decklists by tomorrow night, but if not then, at least Monday night!

[yawg07]

Excited! :D Turns out I'll be out along with 11 others from the area.

[Smmenen]

The weather is unreal here in columbus. It feels like Hawaii.

It was 70 degrees today and it 64 degrees right now at Midnight!!

[Kilz88]

Honestly the decklists wont be too important especially if the whole top eight is decks with imperial recruiter, berserks, sea drakes, and resets. It will probably be quite "off" but...we'll see I suppose.

[Ebinsugewa]

Honestly the decklists wont be too important especially if the whole top eight is decks with imperial recruiter, berserks, sea drakes, and resets. It will probably be quite "off" but...we'll see I suppose.

None of those cards get played regardless of the pricetag.

[herbig]

Honestly the decklists wont be too important especially if the whole top eight is decks with imperial recruiter, berserks, sea drakes, and resets. It will probably be quite "off" but...we'll see I suppose.

Huh?


Good luck to everyone! Have funs.

[Brad Herbig]

Good luck to all. I'm sad I couldn't make it.

[Smmenen]

We have FIFTY FOUR players!!!

Round two is wrapping up now! Decklists will be up tonight (probably!)!

[Jaynel]

Wow, awesome!

[Smmenen]

correction! We had 55 players! I just got home, and am exhausted, but the top 8 was very intense! Brian Demars ended up being the winner after a top four prize split due to the fact that he was the highest placing person in the swiss. I ended up third place.

This tournament was amazing!

[yawg07]

It was a blast! Out of my 11 person group a good chunk of us were in the top 16.
Out of the Top 4, it was two Meandeck and two of us from out in Wadsworth, I do believe.

43Land was one of the top 4, my friend John Pryor was playing it.
Also, Team America was in the top 4, piloted by my friend Smitty.

[Smmenen]

Just as a quick FYI, we are looking at either Sat, Jan 31st or Sunday, Feb 1st for the next one. Let us know (either me or hi-val) your preference!!!

[kabal]

This tournament was amazing!

Can we get the top 8 while you are typing up the deck lists?

[umbowta]

Just as a quick FYI, we are looking at either Sat, Jan 31st or Sunday, Feb 1st for the next one. Let us know (either me or hi-val) your preference!!!
I think the prerelease is that weekend but I'd rather play Legacy anyway so that seems fine by me. Hopefully I'll be able to get down that way. I suppose I could always beg for a ride from the RIW crew. I'm promoting an event on the weekend before and was hoping a few of you guys from MEANDECK could make the trip up to Michigan. Heres a link to the thread http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12314. Check it out, show up, win stuff, and party.

[frolll]

We NEED lists guys !
I'm dying for info about that top8...

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

From what I remember:
1st - Brian Demars with U/W Control
2nd - Mike Smith with U/B/G Team America
3rd - Stephen Menendian with U/B/G Threshold
4th - John Pryor with 42lands.dec
5th - 8th
There was a Rock Deck, a Countersliver Deck, a Dreadnought Deck, and I'm not sure about the older guy Brian Played against.

[freakish777]

So no Berserks, Sea Drakes, Imperial Recruiters or Resets in that top 8??!!

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

Not really. The format was pretty normal. Threshold, Team America, StifleNought, Dreadstill, Rock, Stax, Aggro-Loam. Most of the Proxies in the decks were Fetchlands and Dual Lands.

[Smmenen]

We NEED lists guys !
I'm dying for info about that top8...

I am going to post a FULL metagame breakdown and top 8 decklists, but give me some time to do both things at once. In the meantime, I will post an archetype breakdown of the top 8 tonight.

My deck, FYI, was card for card Pat Chapin's Legacy Worlds deck in 2007.

[Smmenen]

1) Brian DeMars - UW Control

2) John Pyror - 43 Land.dec

3) Stephen Menendian - UBGW Counterbalance-Goyf

4) Michael Smith - UBG Goyf/Tombstalker Aggro-Control

5) Rich Stachurski - Counterslivers

6) Adam Yurichick -- DreadStill

7) Cedric Phillips - The Rock

8) Mark Trogdon - Mono Blue Fish

Remember, the top 4 Split!

I will post full decklists and metagame breakdown within the week!

[yawg07]

Mono blue fish!? That deck looked awfully merfolk-ey if I remember correctly.

[Kuma]

It was. I played him, it's definitely Merfolk.

[Smmenen]

What's the difference?

Fish = Merfolk.

The Fish concept is derived from Merfolk decks. Trogdon's mono blue Fish deck is in fact the archetypal original Fish deck, although it used Lord with newer Merfolk. The fact that most modern Fish decks no longer run actual merfolk does not mean that this is not a Fish deck.

Nicolas Labarre- Fish
Pro Tour Rome 1998, 2nd place
Extended
4 Manta Riders
4 Merfolk Trader
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Man’o'war
4 Suq’Ata Firewalker
3 Waterspout Djinn

4 Force of Will
2 Force Spike
4 Counterspell
2 Curiosity
3 Nevinyrral’s Disk

4 Wasteland
18 Island

Sideboard
2 Phyrexian Furnace
2 Bottle Gnomes
2 Force Spike
2 Disrupt
4 Hydroblast
2 Serrated Arrows
1 Nevinyrral’s Disk

[yawg07]

I'm aware of the deck's history, but NOW, if it is a creature type deck it is generally just called that creature type.
Mono-U Fish, to me, implies that the deck isn't Merfolk, that it is something else.

[Smmenen]

But Merfolk are actually Fish!

[Smmenen]

Top 8 decklists have been typed and posted.

Phew!

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12319

[Smmenen]

I promise to still do a metagame breakdown, but we are looking at Feb. 15th for the next one. Any thoughts?

[Obfuscate Freely]

Hey Steve, Micheal Smith's fourth-place deck looks to be a slight variation on Team America (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11605), a deck that has been rising in popularity as of late. Chris Coppola even mentioned it in his latest article. (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/16772_Unlocking_Legacy_Assessing_Legacy_for_Grand_Prix_Chicago.html)

Did you label Michael's deck as "UBG Tombstalker/Goyf Aggro-Control" because you weren't aware of Team America beforehand, or for some other reason?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I don't know if it does count as Team America without Sinkhole. It's just not the same deck without Sinkhole.

On a side note, Steve, your so called "43-Land" list only had 42 land. Nice fucking try.

No, but seriously, I really enjoyed your last SCG article, keep up the good work.

(No, that wasn't sarcasm, it was a good article).

[herbig]

I read a different report here before that mentioned Team America, and I just assumed it was some r/w/u concoction. I've really been out of the loop for awhile in Legacy. Thanks for enlightening us!

[yawg07]

I don't know if it does count as Team America without Sinkhole. It's just not the same deck without Sinkhole.

That is my friend 'Smitty' who played that.
Even without Sinkhole, we've been calling it Team America around here.
It is just a variant.

[kirdape3]

Because after all, naming conventions are really that important when we talk about Legacy.

Also, he didn't credit Chapin's deck either, so don't think it was a particular slight.

[Arkham]

I don't know if it does count as Team America without Sinkhole. It's just not the same deck without Sinkhole.

That's probably why Smitty was calling it Dream Team while we were there.

[yawg07]

That's probably why Smitty was calling it Dream Team while we were there.

That makes total sense, I've heard him say that before.
He had a nice explanation of why he didn't like Sinkhole and such.
Maybe I can get him to post it here.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I don't know if I can buy an argument against Sinkhole in that deck, although I might be persuaded to buy an argument for Hymn to Tourach. Because zom that card's amazing.

[Jedi Knight]

MY friend and I have tested the deck extensively and we both came to the conclusion that in our meta the hym is more effective than a late game sink hole.BUT THAT IS ONLY IN OUR META WHERE COMBO IS PLAYED ALOT.

[Bardo]

Duplicate thread at this point. Further discussion can be had here:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12319