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Di
12-16-2008, 05:46 PM
[For now I'll leave this as it's own thread. After some thought, it's different enough both from traditional Elves and from traditional Survival that doesn't necessarily belong.]


Ok I figured it's time to bump this thread with what I've been working on over the past month or so. I wasn't going to bother posting it, but after BirdMan's recent top8 with it at Eli's Beta Dual Land tournament, I decided it's worth talking about. Since it's so drastically different I think it's best if I take a primer-esque approach to catch you guys up to speed.

Here's the current list I have, which is slightly different than what he ran. I should note that this is one of roughly 4-5 lists I'm testing right now, all of which have around a 1-5 card choice change (including 1-2 more land, 1 less land, running ESG, running maindeck Masticore, etc):

The EPIC Elf Survival

4 Survival of the Fittest

1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger

4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Priest of Titania
4 Elvish Champion
4 Imperious Perfect
3 Wren's Run Vanquisher
1 Thornweald Archer
4 Sylvan Messenger
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Wood Elves
2 Quirion Ranger
3 Wirewood Symbiote
2 Mirror Entity

4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
3 Savannah
3 Forest

Since the sideboard was his own and meta dependant I'm opting to exclude it from here.

I started working on this list because I was casually having fun with Elves and realized the potential it had. The only issue was that it really needed haste and Concordant Crossroads sucks, so I checked out Survival + Anger. I saw some other lists that tried Survival but I wasn't impressed with them at all, so I took it upon myself to give it a shot. I put my own spin on it and I really liked what I came up with. Elves on it's own is already a really fast, consistent aggro deck (Just take out the Survival engine, add in more Symbiotes and maindeck Thorn of Amethyst and that's about the only changes), and adding Survival to it not only makes it a lot more powerful and explosive and turns it into a combo deck, but also gives the deck phenomenal game outside of Survival. You have a great aggro game outside of Survival alone with Mirror Entity and 8 lords in the deck, not to mention Elvish Champion gives forestwalk and 80% of the format runs Tarmogoyf. It has a phenomenal draw engine with Sylvan Messenger that is potentially more powerful than Goblin Ringleader because of this deck's ability to play more creatures a turn with acceleration and constantly play it over and over with Wirewood Symbiote. And with Survival you just go crazy with mana and then have multiple options, including going the infinate mana route with Wirewood Symbiote and Mirror Entity, or playing a string of Messengers and overwhelming the opponent, or just dropping a couple lords and smashing in. It's much, much different than playing a traditional Survival deck because this is entirely from an aggro standpoint, so I'll be discussing how it plays out below.

Piloting the deck is very strange, at least with Survival in play. Without it you can run it on auto-pilot for the most part. You play some dudes, play some lords, play Ringleader or something, and just smash. With Survival you have a lot of options. Depending on what you're up against, the infinate mana trick is my favorite, and you can do it as early as turn 3. Doing it is simple:

Priest of Titania + Wirewood Symbiote + Mirror Entity + another elf

Generally I stay away from combos in Survival because of how bad the pieces are on their own, but given all of these slots are in the deck anyway and good on their own, it just happens to work together. The key is to have Priest tap for at least GGG. Then activate Mirror Entity for 1. This will turn all your creatures into Changelings, so Wirewood Symbiote will be an elf. It can then return itself to untap Priest of Titania. Cast Symbiote with GG floating, activate Entity for 1, repeat. It nets mana, and you go infinate and can make your creatures as big as you like and swing in. It's very easy to pull this off as early as turn 3, but it's most common on turn 4.

If you don't take that route, then you can play it to how you see fit, but it depends on the matchups. This could involve strings of chaining Priest of Titanias into lords, or playing multiple Sylvan Messengers to build up an army, or whatever you like.


Card Choices:

Survival + Squee + Anger: It's actually not the heart of the deck, but more a complement to it. Anger is what this is about, but I actually hate Squee in here, but it's unfortunately a necessity.

8 Mana Elves: They accelerate into turn 2 lords, or Survival with mana floating. Having a lot of them is golden as you have a high chance of opening with one.

Priest of Titania: 4 non-legendary Rofellos? Crack.. This is the card that really took me to building this. It is stupid good, with or without Survival.

8 Lords: This is really what gives the deck a beating outside Survival. Having all of them turns all the measly critters into small beaters, and they both have a good ability. Forestwalk is nuts in Legacy, and Perfect pumping out 2/2's every turn is awesome against almost every match. Adding an untapper like Ranger or Symbiote makes him even better. Having all of them also allows me to fight Engineered Plague a lot better.

Wren's Run Vanquisher: I consider him removal before a beater. Deathtouch is really good in here because I can shrug off creatures like Tarmogoyf easily. It also happens to be nice when Wirewood Symbiote bounces it after combat damage.

Thornweald Archer: The oddball choice, and some say it's bad, but I wanted an outlet for Tombstalker. Tombstalker can be a problem if I don't have much else going on. I've been happy with this guy so far, because it still kills Tarmogoyf all the same.

Sylvan Messenger: This guy is just dumb. I don't need to explain this.

Viridian Zealot: There needs to be some sort of artifact/enchantment removal. Sadly this guy doesn't get around Counterbalance that well, but thankfully half the deck does anyway.

Wood Elves: The other oddball slot in here. It's the worst card in the deck, but a necessary evil. I wanted a way to reliably get a white mana to cast Mirror Entity, and this guy also happens to pull Taiga to give me haste. It turns out he's really good for the deck.

Quirion Ranger: I run multiples of these because not only can it be vital to use both when trying to rack up Priest mana and combo, but it's also incredible on its own and to hit off Messenger. With so few lands, having more Wasteland protection also works. I tried running just one but I felt I really needed the second.

Wirewood Symbiote: The heart of the deck. It does pretty much everything. It protects all your other creatures leaving opponents to have to get him out of the way, it is a mana accelerator, it bounces Messenger for insane card advantage, and it allows you to combo. If space permitted I'd run 4 even if it isn't an elf, because it's that good.

Mirror Entity: This was originally Kamahl, Fist of Krosa until I noticed this is also an elf. Hitting these off Messenger is awesome. Without Survival it's insane because it very easily turns your team into a group of 4/4-6/6, or with Priest is just makes you go lethal. I run 2 of them due to the importance of it helping the combo and can grab another if it dies, but also because it's a great draw and flip off Messenger. Plus, it allows you to cast Squee and Anger in a pinch and still make them big, which is a nice plus if you draw them. This guy really puts the deck over the top.


Cards that didn't make the cut:

Genesis: He's another non-elf, and it's very rare I'm going to be using him because there aren't many singletons that I'd need to get back. He just wasn't pulling weight like he would in normal builds.

Eternal Witness: Originally in here like Genesis, but the fact it isn't an elf is really a liability. Plus, I'm not too worried if my Survival dies. The deck is very good at generating advantage without it, so I'm not too worried about it.

Rofellos: The deck doesn't run many lands, so it's hard to abuse him. Occasionally I'd like him if I don't have an opening accelerator, but the deck has enough acceleration anyway.

Masticore: Masticore is always being swapped in and out of the deck. It is incredible in here due to the high amount of mana it generates, but it always feels win more in those matchups. Generally if I can add enough to blow up someone's team, I can win instead. It's unlikely as a random draw, and it messes with Messenger. I like it in the sideboard instead.

Tarmogoyf: Some would argue that Tarmogoyf is green thus deserves its space. Sadly, it sucks, but in this deck and against it. The opponent has to do all the work to make Goyf worthwhile, and it's a waste of time. It's why Goblins doesn't run it either.

Elvish Spirit Guide: This actually isn't a card that didn't make the cut, because I'm doing extensive testing with it right now. The results are sort of wishy-washy. Sometimes it makes the deck explode with something like turn 1 Priest, Survival, Vanquisher, or lord, or multiple mana elves turn 1, and other times it seems like a permanent mana source would be just as good if not better. I like this guy, I'm just not sure if it has a place just yet. It does help that it fucks with Daze decks though.

Utility Elves and other reasonable beaters: Stuff like Caller of the Claw, Wellwisher, Chameleon Colossus, Wren's Run Packmaster, etc all fall under this category. Those guys are either sideboard material, or aren't strong enough to make the cut in the maindeck. I wanted to keep the maindeck as compact as possible, and not clutter it with more 1of's than I needed.


Sideboard:

The sideboard is still way too variable to figure it out. I have a million options on what I want from it, but this is what I have

Krosan Grip
Orim's Chant
Gaddock Teeg
Magus of the Moon
Choke
Thorn of Amethyst
Tormod's Crypt
Relic of Progrenitus
Yixlid Jailer
Faerie Macabre
Pithing Needle
Null Rod
Engineered Plague
Goblin Pyromancer
Masticore
Price of Progress
Wellwisher
Caller of the Claw
Other utility I'm possibly forgetting?

The main issue is that I haven't entirely narrowed down all of the bad matchups yet in it's entirety and built the sideboard around that. I have a pretty good idea though from what I've gathered from two months of testing. For now, this is my default sideboard based off the harder matchups:

4 Krosan Grip
4 Orim's Chant
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Magus of the Moon
2 Choke
3 OPEN SLOTS

Matchups:

Counterbalance Threshold: Favorable.

These decks are easy prey because they have little removal to handle all of your creatures, and you have a lot of guys to get around Counterbalance. Tarmogoyf isn't too big of a problem with all the chump blockers you have, and it's hard for them to stop you if any of your bombs (Survival, Champion, Perfect, Entity, Symbiote/Messenger) go unchecked. Black is a bit harder due to Engineered Plague and maybe Thoughtseize, but you're already bringing in Krosan Grips and then Choke and Magus of the Moon lock them down as well. Red can be an issue though because of Pyroclasm and Firespout. That card alone gives them a shot. Plague can be fought around, but those cards mess with you bad. Pyroclasm isn't as bad as you can fight it with double lord, but Firespout is hard, because Magus doesn't stop it. The matchup is still favorable, but can easily be lost due to that.

Tempo Threshold/ Team America : Slightly Favorable-Even.

These matches are usually blowouts on one side of the other. Tempo tricks are either hit or miss here. Either Elves is going to blow you out with acceleration to the point where LD is useless, or you'll hit a single land, kill a creature and put it out of the game. For the most part, you have a better chance at beating Team America and UGB Thrash down than UGR Canadian. Canadian has more removal with Fire/Ice and post-board Firespout/Clasm to do serious damage, so that can be a lot harder to win through. If you manage to circumvent any random mana screw then it's difficult to lose because you have so many creatures and they have so few blockers.


Landstill: Unfavorable.

This is bad, but not hopeless. If it's a 4c build then it's a lot worse, because Pernicious Deed is rough. The lack of disruption in discard hurts here because you can't hit them then resolve a bomb. You just need to rely on pulling cards and hopefully resolving Messengers to stay ahead in CA. Post-board you have Magus and Choke to help, maybe Grip, maybe Teeg if it's an EE/Humility build, and whatever else you end up boarding. Still, not a good match.

TES/ANT/Tendrils: Unfavorable.

This is arguably the worst matchup due to lack of disruption, but you can win turn 3 so you aren't entirely out of it. Post-board helps a little bit, but there isn't too much you can do here. Tendrils is really the only thing that would ideally sway a Survival player away from playing this.

Dreadstill: Favorable.

This plays out very similarly to Threshold, except your Vanqishers are running into Dreadnoughts instead. They can potentially win if they stick a turn 2-3 Dreadnought and are able to clear the way of Zealot or deathtouchers, but it's rare. It's difficult for them to handle all of your creatures pre-board, and if you're able to stick a Mirror Entity then chumping Dreadnoughts is surprisingly easy. Post-board it gets a bit tougher because of Firespout, but you still gain Choke and Krosan Grip to deal with Dreadnought and Counterbalance.

Goblins: Slightly Favorable.

This really depends if they run Perish in the sideboard or Goblin Sharpshooter. If they do, then post-board it'll be difficult to win if they have it and wipe your team. If they don't, then this match is fine. Sharpshooter is really rare now so I wouldn't expect it. You have a million creatures early to block Lackeys, and their mana denial isn't very effective with so much acceleration. SGC is still annoying though and can be a swing in their favor, but that was the case with the deck in any other matchup too. A single lord turns your team huge against them, and your creatures are a lot cheaper than theirs so you can easily win the arms race. It isn't a bye by any means, but when putting pure aggro-on-aggro here, you have more outlets to kill them. I haven't figured out the last slots in the sideboard yet, so these could potentially be Engineered Plagues, or Masticore + Goblin Pyromancer + something, I dunno.

Ichorid: Slightly Unfavorable

I don't have as much testing as I'd like against Ichorid, so I'm not entirely sure on it. Some of the games they just turn 1-2'd me, a few others we sat for a while and both sides had an attrition win, others I had a turn 3-4 win with the combo. It's highly dependant on the dieroll and the starts of both players. They can kill you quickly and rush out zombies, but you can throw a few men down early then swarm them. I haven't been exactly happy so far with it, so the sideboard will likely see hate against them, either Crypt or Plague (or both).

Aggro Loam: Even-Slightly Unfavorable

This match solely depends on if they see Devastating Dreams or not. If they do, you might lose. Your team gets wiped and you lose a few lands, and it's difficult to come back from that under most circumstances. Seismic Assault can be annoying if paired with Loam, but it can also be fought around if you're able to chain Messengers, but still really difficult. If not, then it's hard to lose. Aside from Terravore none of their creatures are remotely scary as you can either chump or toss a deathtoucher into them forever, and you still are fast enough to put pressure on them. I haven't figured out how I want to address this matchup yet. Caller of the Claw seems reasonable for shit like DD or Clasm, but it's a really weak slot otherwise. Or maybe Absolute Law, Bubble Matrix, or something else awful that stops sweepers.



Aside from the fact that a lot of the popular deck's aren't overwhelmingly favorable, the deck still has a lot of potential and arguably more viability than other Survival decks. It's a lot faster than the others and can work much better without Survival than them. Although traditional Survival has a better time with combo decks, it's much weaker against Counterbalance and tempo decks. I think it's at least looking into this because it gives the archtype a new twist.

/end rant.

Nihil Credo
12-16-2008, 06:19 PM
Cool decklist. This looks like an aggro deck I'd actually enjoy playing thanks to the extra engines thrown in. Pity about the matchups - most of them are not impressive, and while Counterbalance Threshold is favourable we all know how 80% of the decks in the format are supposed to beat Counterbalance Threshold yet somehow the deck still steals wins.

One minor note: you can actually go off with just Priest + Symbiote + Entity if you have one mana untapped - you just activate the Entity as your first step of the loop, netting an extra G from Priest.

Sideboard idea: Winter Orbs should be well-supported in this deck and a fucking beating against control. Null Rod is also an interesting option, killing off Explosives, Top (and Counterbalance with it), and Vial/Jitte from Goblins. If you end up running the ESGs they don't suck too bad against combo either.

How's the Sligh matchup? That's one that definitely needs testing, especially because I don't know whether the best strategy for Goyf is to burn your men and try to punch through or just aim everything at your head and race. I guess the former strategy loses to Sylvan Messenger, but it also gets a lot better when they open on turn 1 Grim Lavamancer.

metalman2785
12-16-2008, 06:56 PM
Very interesting list, I like the mirror entity kill a lot. I am currently running a priest/glimpse/staff elf deck, but I can see the advantages of survival/anger in elves.

The only card in the SB list you posted that I would consider is Fecundity, as it is a great option to recover from mass creature destruction, pyroclasm/WOG. I am not sure if it is a better option then Caller of the claw in your list as he is a survival target.

Di
12-16-2008, 07:03 PM
Cool decklist. This looks like an aggro deck I'd actually enjoy playing thanks to the extra engines thrown in. Pity about the matchups - most of them are not impressive, and while Counterbalance Threshold is favourable we all know how 80% of the decks in the format are supposed to beat Counterbalance Threshold yet somehow the deck still steals wins.

One minor note: you can actually go off with just Priest + Symbiote + Entity if you have one mana untapped - you just activate the Entity as your first step of the loop, netting an extra G from Priest.

Sideboard idea: Winter Orbs should be well-supported in this deck and a fucking beating against control. Null Rod is also an interesting option, killing off Explosives, Top (and Counterbalance with it), and Vial/Jitte from Goblins. If you end up running the ESGs they don't suck too bad against combo either.

How's the Sligh matchup? That's one that definitely needs testing, especially because I don't know whether the best strategy for Goyf is to burn your men and try to punch through or just aim everything at your head and race. I guess the former strategy loses to Sylvan Messenger, but it also gets a lot better when they open on turn 1 Grim Lavamancer.

@ Matchups

The thing is matchups are always different irl than on paper. I mean, I've still lost matches to Threshold with this and have blown out Landstill. Paper is really just speaking out of theory, so I can't say that by looking at them it should be looked down upon. The deck has better matchups against the field as a whole than traditional Survival decks. It is stronger against Counterbalance, tempo, and aggro strategies. I think I may have exaggerated the killing of sweepers on it, because normal Survival gets hurt nearly as bad. It's just I have Engineered Plague to look out for now as well.

Admittedly, I've never played against Sligh before. I don't know how that'd go. Depends how they play against Elves.

@ Priest Combo

I actually should've clarified that. I'm aware you can go off with one floating. I guess I just didn't think to put it in because I have multiple elves in play 90% of the time.

@ Sideboard

Null Rod is mentioned in that list. I also tinkered with Winter Orb, but decided I like Choke more because it'd be brought in the same matchups, but keep them tapped down. It's also better against Threshold too, which operates on a low land count. Winter Orb would help more against Aggro Loam though, so I'll test it out more.

Swing4Five
12-17-2008, 03:21 PM
Awesome, I always love seeing a new one of your posts in here Di.

I've mostly moved away from Survival due to having The combo Fear, but I am definately going to sleeve this up and attune myself to piloting it. Who knows, next time around I might put on my Storm-dodging shoes and sling it.

On a rules note; the stack damage, bounce dude, resolve Deathtouch trick does not work, as the Deathtouch ability would go on the stack as the damage resolves, not as it's stacked, so the Elf is back in your hand instead of anywhere the game can find and read its ability.

I would most likely have some Relics in the side, taking 'geese and 'goyfs down to manageable size, straight up killing 'vores in the Aggro Loam match, and helping out the Ichorid matchup.

Adan
12-17-2008, 03:26 PM
Ok I figured it's time to bump this thread with what I've been working on over the past month or so. I wasn't going to bother posting it, but after BirdMan's recent top8 with it at Eli's Beta Dual Land tournament, I decided it's worth talking about. Since it's so drastically different I think it's best if I take a primer-esque approach to catch you guys up to speed.

Give the Germans some credits, yo.

We were slightly faster:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=19952

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20228

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21397

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=18892 (No Survival, tho)

Di
12-17-2008, 06:45 PM
I was actually not aware of those top8's. That just makes me feel even more confident on the deck. I'm not a huge fan of those lists, but it's good to know that there's been a lot more development here than I accounted for.


On a rules note; the stack damage, bounce dude, resolve Deathtouch trick does not work, as the Deathtouch ability would go on the stack as the damage resolves, not as it's stacked, so the Elf is back in your hand instead of anywhere the game can find and read its ability.

I would most likely have some Relics in the side, taking 'geese and 'goyfs down to manageable size, straight up killing 'vores in the Aggro Loam match, and helping out the Ichorid matchup.

Aw that sucks. Oh well. If I'm going to use graveyard hate, it'd probably be Tormod's Crypt. I really prefer it be free given I want to be playing spells too.


The only card in the SB list you posted that I would consider is Fecundity, as it is a great option to recover from mass creature destruction, pyroclasm/WOG. I am not sure if it is a better option then Caller of the claw in your list as he is a survival target.

That is a really interesting idea. It's definetely something looking into. Plus I have a playset of foil ones that can see some use.

Adan
12-18-2008, 02:47 AM
I was actually not aware of those top8's. That just makes me feel even more confident on the deck. I'm not a huge fan of those lists, but it's good to know that there's been a lot more development here than I accounted for.

You even asked me via AIM whether I can show you their list. xD


Session Start (adantheone:melancauly): Wed Nov 12 22:55:38 2008
[22:58] melancauly: I just received wind that you guys have an Elf Survival list?
[22:58] adantheone: yessir
[22:58] melancauly: I've been working on it for about 2 weeks and am insanely impressed
[22:58] melancauly: And want to see yours for comparison

:-P

Di
12-18-2008, 03:57 AM
I meant I wasn't aware there were lists that top8'd. I knew about your list obviously, but wasn't aware people ran it in tournaments and actually placed.

Adan
12-18-2008, 04:06 AM
I meant I wasn't aware there were lists that top8'd. I knew about your list obviously, but wasn't aware people ran it in tournaments and actually placed.

Ah. Ok. But proof that it's a strong pile, though "Elves" seem to be random.

Waikiki
12-18-2008, 05:09 AM
I've been playing the elf survival list aswell for some time now. And Im unsure about the 3 symbiote. The fact they are non elves really bothers me since I want to be hitting alot with messenger. Tho I haven't tested out the mirror combo. Great find!

<Edit> I didn't want to cut squee myself either but after playing without it I barely even missed it. Just fetching your messengers most of the time give you something to pitch. I guess its more needed when fetching the combo parts.

Illissius
12-18-2008, 09:43 AM
I've been recommending Survival in Elves since appromixately forever, but people preferred to just keep on playing Crossroads. Shrug. I'm not sure if I ever came up with a list exactly like that one, on some level I guess I was just afraid of running Survival without Thoughtseize and Therapy to help resolve it.

What are your thoughts on: Aether Vial, Elvish Visionary, Rofellos, Eladamri (as a one of), Jitte, Timberwatch Elf (Immaculate Magistrate), Tribal Forcemage, Thornscape Battlemage, Gaea's Cradle, Wirewod Hivemaster. (I assume there's a reason you're not running them.)

Also, doesn't this belong better in one of the Elves threads? It doesn't have much in common with the usual Survival decks beyond Survival itself.

TheLion
12-18-2008, 12:07 PM
Also, doesn't this belong better in one of the Elves threads? It doesn't have much in common with the usual Survival decks beyond Survival itself.

Well, who defines what is a usual Survival deck? Survival has so many faces...:
RG(b/w) Survival Advantage
BGW Rock Survival
Full English Breakfast
Madness Survival
Angry Tradewind Survival
Welder Survival
Not Quite Survival
RecSur
Elves Survival
...

The only common card is Squee.

Swing4Five
12-18-2008, 02:55 PM
What are your thoughts on: Aether Vial, Elvish Visionary, Rofellos, Eladamri (as a one of), Jitte, Timberwatch Elf (Immaculate Magistrate), Tribal Forcemage, Thornscape Battlemage, Gaea's Cradle, Wirewod Hivemaster. (I assume there's a reason you're not running them.)

I think I can tackle a few of these.
AEther Vial: This builds seems to want to win asap, not wait around for Vial Counters.

Elvish Visionary, Jitte, Wirewod Hivemaster: You got these from the Extended Elves! decks, who's backup plan, when they're combo is disrupted, is to go 1/1 beatdown, the backup plan here is Survival and Sylvan Messenger abuse.

Rofellos: He gave reason for this one, not playing enough lands to make it worthwhile.

Eladamri (as a one of): This could be looked into if your meta is pinpoint removal heavy, I assume it wasn't included as it does nothing for sweepers and doesn't help you actually win.

Timberwatch Elf, Immaculate Magistrate, Tribal Forcemage, Thornscape Battlemage: Too slow/expensive, don't tap for mana.

Gaea's Cradle: Doesn't do anything broken until you've gotten to a point where it becomes "win more".

Jaynel
12-18-2008, 03:06 PM
Eladamri (as a one of): This could be looked into if your meta is pinpoint removal heavy, I assume it wasn't included as it does nothing for sweepers and doesn't help you actually win.

Gaea's Cradle: Doesn't do anything broken until you've gotten to a point where it becomes "win more".

Eladamri turns off Quirion Ranger and Wirewood Symbiote.

Gaea's Cradle, though powerful, leads to more inconsistency of opening hands.

I personally think this would be better off in the Elves thread. Di even said that the Survival engine is secondary.

Swing4Five
12-18-2008, 03:14 PM
Eladamri turns off Quirion Ranger and Wirewood Symbiote.

Ah right, I had thought about the cost of Symbiote, forgot about the effect. :tongue:

Illissius
12-18-2008, 03:44 PM
Elvish Visionary, Jitte, Wirewod Hivemaster: You got these from the Extended Elves! decks

Actually, no. I got them from the endless Elves lists I've been building up in my notes since, what, the past year?


Eladamri turns off Quirion Ranger and Wirewood Symbiote.

Obviously. That's the drawback. There's also a plus side. The question is whether the balance comes out positive enough. I guess Symbiote is protection enough that you don't also want Eladamri.

Di
12-18-2008, 05:55 PM
This is a thread for general survival discussion. If you do want to have a detailed conversation about elf survival I do believe it would warrant it's own thread.

If that's the case, we might as well make an entirely different thread for any Survival deck running Burning Wish, because that affects the deck and sideboard so drastically that it is undeserving of being in this thread. Or Welder Survival, because they run Chrome Mox, Artifact Lands, and overcosted crap, and Intuition and Thirst for Knowledge. Yeah :)


Case in point, there is no "general" Survival. You have norms you can follow, but there are too many variants to put them in different threads. That's why I made this thread in the first place and helped design the system that we use because of things like this.

But I will concede it could also find a home in the Elves thread. But given the nature of the deck, a strong case could be made to put it in either thread, so I don't see a big issue in keeping it in one or the other.

Plus, this thread was freaking dead. I wanted to promote discussion. But given how much interest this has generated so far, I'll most likely make a thread for it on it's own, because it still does have contradictory issues with both this and the Elf Aggro thread.


I've been playing the elf survival list aswell for some time now. And Im unsure about the 3 symbiote. The fact they are non elves really bothers me since I want to be hitting alot with messenger. Tho I haven't tested out the mirror combo. Great find!


I actually started with Symbiote as a singleton, but kept realizing I wanted to see it more and more. It was mostly because outside of Messenger piles, it was absolute gold. Having protection from removal, combat tricks, recurring Messengers, and the higher percentage of drawing combo pieces made me up it, going from two to then adding in the third like a week ago.


What are your thoughts on: Aether Vial, Elvish Visionary, Rofellos, Eladamri (as a one of), Jitte, Timberwatch Elf (Immaculate Magistrate), Tribal Forcemage, Thornscape Battlemage, Gaea's Cradle, Wirewod Hivemaster. (I assume there's a reason you're not running them.)

Aether Vial - Aether Vial is fine in this deck, but I ended up running more mana elves instead. The curve is low enough in here that you can just run the mana elves and run at a similar speed with Vial, but it's also the fact that Vial isn't nearly as synergistic as the mana elves, given all the buffs from Priest, lords, Messenger, and Mirror Entity.

Elvish Visionary - I've never tested this card, but it'd seem to have some merit. It's a nice cantrip and paired with Symbiote can be pretty interesting. However, it's something I'd want in multiples and I don't have much space for it. It's worth a look though.

Rofellos - I mentioned Rofellos in my post about it. To quote myself:


Rofellos: The deck doesn't run many lands, so it's hard to abuse him. Occasionally I'd like him if I don't have an opening accelerator, but the deck has enough acceleration anyway.

Issue is, Usually Priest of Titania is a better grab, and there's four of them. I've only wanted Rofellos when I resolved a Survival and then hit my third land drop without having a first turn mana elf. It's rare that I find I need him, because the deck runs a lot of acceleration.

Timberwatch/Immaculate Magistrate - I looked at them back from my old t2 lists that I ran, and they were insane. But right now I'm not sure how I feel about them because they can be slow and are weak on their own.

Eladamri - He was actually in my sideboard for a long time. I forgot to mention him in that list of cards. He's constantly weaving in and out of the deck, but I hate how he shuts off my own cards.

Jitte - I also forgot to mention this in list of sideboard cards. I haven't given much testing to it, but it's really solid.

Tribal Forcemage - My older Elves list ran this (and Gempalm too) but I cut them for permanent buffs in the 8 lords.

Gaea's Cradle - I had them in here but I was really bothered by opening them alone and not being able to fetch it. It's possible it could find a way back in though.

Thornscape Battlemage - I never knew this was an Elf. That is awesome. I'll be testing him out somewhere for sure.

Wirewood Hivemaster - This is currently being tested right now. It was mentioned to me by a teammate, and it has potential. I don't know where it'd fit, but it can do stupid things, and would be a really interesting way to circumvent Engineered Plague.

MindTwiZt
12-18-2008, 07:34 PM
Hi,

I'm one of the german creators of this deck (together with Tobias Hesser, who is not registered here). I have some things to point out with your list:


1. You should run more lands. Similar to Goblins, you have a really high curve, and even if you have mana elves, you still want to drop a land for the first 3 turns (sometimes you can cheat a little with Quirion Ranger). And you should play at least 2 Gaea's Cradle, these give ao much speed. Imagine T1 Mana Elf, T2 Cradle, 2drop, 2drop. With a Cradle, this deck goes really crazy.

2. 8 Lord + 2 Entities is way to much. You have way to much cards in your 3 mana slot, and with only 17 lands, you have high chances to die with 1 land and a hand full of lords. In our meta, most players have realized that this deck strongly depends on the first mana elf, so they often burn it away to slow us down. Actually we play with only 6 lords + one Entity, which seems to be enough. If you have Survival online, you will discard each lord for more Priests and Messenger and kill with the Entity or with (Beware! Secret tech!) Chameleon Colossus (which is also missing in your list).

3. 3 Wirewood Symbiote is also too much in my opinion. One or two of them is usually enough. When you start to combo of, you won't need more, and they are no Elves, so they don't profit from the Messengers or the Lords. Tobias and I always try not to play more non-elves than necessary.

4. I doubt, Wood Elves are good. I understand why you play them, but with enough Fetchs, you will find your Taiga in almost each game. If you need a land searcher, you might try Yavimaya Dryad. Its not an elf, but it can pass the Forest to your opponent (tricky, isnt it?). Forestwalk FTW!

So our actual Decklist looks like this:

4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Priest
4 Messenger
3 Champion
3 Perfect
4 Vanquisher (Thornwald Archer is fine, too)
3 Quirion Ranger (insane wish Priests)
2 Viridean Zealot

1 Entity
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Anger
1 Squee

4 Survival

3 Cradle (might be 2, still testing)
3 Taiga
3 Savannah
6 Fetchs
5 Forest (number of Fetchs and Basics may vary)

Some explanations: We play more basics because of Magus of the Moon in our SB. You dont want to draw only Fetchs with him online. This gives us a slightly lower chance of having a Taiga, but normaly you only need it Turn 4, so you have enough time to find one.

The two Viridean Zealots are still experimental, maybe one is sufficient, but a 2drop more is good for the curve. We've also tried Iff-Biff Efreet in this slot (ok, honestly, who knows this card?), so we make good use of our mana, but the Colossus works better for this (and is and Elf, too).

Only one Symbiote, because he isnt an Elf. Most times, the Rangers and Priests can generate enough mana to kill, and one symbiote is enough to go infinte with the Entity.


Last, but not least, some additions to your sideboard pool:

You might try Wilt-Leaf Liege and Wrens Run Packmaster, which are really good against damage based (mass-)removal such as Devastating Dreams, Plagues and things like that.

best regard
Stefan

P.S.: Since we are the firsts to go Top8 with this list, maybe we should chose a proper name for this deck.
My first idea was: Combo !!!111 Elf Elf Elf

(the german Elf not only means elf, but also eleven, so its a good name for us here, but I'm afraig it doesnt make much sense outside of Germany).

Di
12-18-2008, 08:55 PM
First of all thanks for posting. It's nice to have someone who's familiar with the deck.


1. You should run more lands. Similar to Goblins, you have a really high curve, and even if you have mana elves, you still want to drop a land for the first 3 turns (sometimes you can cheat a little with Quirion Ranger). And you should play at least 2 Gaea's Cradle, these give ao much speed. Imagine T1 Mana Elf, T2 Cradle, 2drop, 2drop. With a Cradle, this deck goes really crazy.

My list is currently up to 18 lands, the list that was run was 17. I haven't had many problems with that configuration so far. With 32 mana sources in the deck (18 land + 8 mana elves + 4 Priest + 2 Ranger) it is very rare that I don't hit mana. It's true I don't hit land first three turns as consistent as a 20-land deck, but it hasn't been a problem to the point where I'd like more of them. I'll also give Cradle another shot, but I'll be pissed if I get stuck with the one-land Cradle hand. I suppose it'd be safer in an ESG list though.


2. 8 Lord + 2 Entities is way to much. You have way to much cards in your 3 mana slot, and with only 17 lands, you have high chances to die with 1 land and a hand full of lords. In our meta, most players have realized that this deck strongly depends on the first mana elf, so they often burn it away to slow us down. Actually we play with only 6 lords + one Entity, which seems to be enough. If you have Survival online, you will discard each lord for more Priests and Messenger and kill with the Entity or with (Beware! Secret tech!) Chameleon Colossus (which is also missing in your list).

I don't know the metagame in Germany, but in the US any deck that has access to black runs Engineered Plague. I can guarantee to see it in a majority of the sideboards I play against. I had to design the deck with that in mind to fight it. Not to mention there is a high amount of Counterbalance here. Getting around that with the 3cc slot is huge.

Chamelon Colossus isn't "missing," I cut it. It was mentioned in my opening post. I cut Colossus in favor of Mirror Entity because it turns a measly team into beaters that just wins, instead of a single creature that gets chumped. If I was going to use another 4cc creature as a beater though, It'd most likely be Wren's Run Packmaster, which I'm still looking at. It gets around Engineered Plague very well and makes creatures that do too. It's definetely something I'm interested in, at least moreso than Colossus.


3. 3 Wirewood Symbiote is also too much in my opinion. One or two of them is usually enough. When you start to combo of, you won't need more, and they are no Elves, so they don't profit from the Messengers or the Lords. Tobias and I always try not to play more non-elves than necessary.

Running at least two is almost mandatory if you wish to combo. There are a lot of situations where you tap out to cast both Entity and Symbiote, then use Symbiote to return an elf and untap Priest, generating enough mana to find and cast another one, then go infinate. I run 3 despite the non-elf because it is one of the strongest draws in the deck. It makes the deck much more explosive and consistent, and recurring Messengers is insane. Also, it's more important given I place a higher emphasis on the combo.


I doubt, Wood Elves are good. I understand why you play them, but with enough Fetchs, you will find your Taiga in almost each game. If you need a land searcher, you might try Yavimaya Dryad. Its not an elf, but it can pass the Forest to your opponent (tricky, isnt it?). Forestwalk FTW!

I run Wood Elves because it will fetch the Savannah, not the Taiga. It is harder to have multiple fetchlands to have both haste and cast Entity by turn 3-4. Wood Elves will get at least one of them, because I'll most likely have hit one fetchland or a dual, and most likely would go for Taiga first.


I do like your build, but I think it would have a lot more trouble over here due to the splash hate you get from Goblins. But I can see dropping a lord for a beefier dude reasonable, as well as taking some other things from the list.

Galroth
12-18-2008, 11:14 PM
I've been testing out this deck since I saw it place in germany a month or two back. The only real new development I see is the inclusion of Mirror Entity. I also thought about taking this route, for the infinite mana trick, but after testing it just didn't seem as consistent.

Instead, I went with good ole Killer Bees. It's not infinite, but with a Priest of Titania and a Survival you can chain into twenty + mana by turn four pretty consistently. Then cast a flying hasted 20/20 for lethal. (It also takes care of Tombstalker just fine). Using Bees instead of Mirror Entity provides the advantage of not having to splash for a tertiary color, and takes up less room. I can't definitively state it's the better choice, but I think it's a comparable choice.

I do like the list more than any Elf or Survival list. Hope to see more development on it in the future.

Di
12-18-2008, 11:26 PM
Instead, I went with good ole Killer Bees. It's not infinite, but with a Priest of Titania and a Survival you can chain into twenty + mana by turn four pretty consistently. Then cast a flying hasted 20/20 for lethal. (It also takes care of Tombstalker just fine). Using Bees instead of Mirror Entity provides the advantage of not having to splash for a tertiary color, and takes up less room. I can't definitively state it's the better choice, but I think it's a comparable choice.

For me personally Entity was fine because I already had white in my sideboard for anti-combo cards. Also, it isn't like you need to always use the infinate mana trick, although it's far more consistent than it's given credit for. But Mirror Entity is incredible because you can just play him and swing with a lot of big creatures instead of a single one (hence why I like him over Colossus). I've won countless games on the back of Mirror Entity alone just casting him, tapping a Priest of Titania, then swinging with a huge team. It's also great because making lots of creatures bigger at once gives you better chance at taking down Tarmogoyfs and Dreadnoughts. Yesterday I took out a Dreadnought with two elf tokens from Imperious Perfect because I had Entity with 4 lands and 2 mana elves untapped. It was sweet.

MindTwiZt
12-19-2008, 07:38 AM
I've been testing out this deck since I saw it place in germany a month or two back. The only real new development I see is the inclusion of Mirror Entity. I also thought about taking this route, for the infinite mana trick, but after testing it just didn't seem as consistent.

Instead, I went with good ole Killer Bees. It's not infinite, but with a Priest of Titania and a Survival you can chain into twenty + mana by turn four pretty consistently. Then cast a flying hasted 20/20 for lethal. (It also takes care of Tombstalker just fine). Using Bees instead of Mirror Entity provides the advantage of not having to splash for a tertiary color, and takes up less room. I can't definitively state it's the better choice, but I think it's a comparable choice.

I do like the list more than any Elf or Survival list. Hope to see more development on it in the future.

Killer Bees are not really good :). Try Chameleon Colossus instead, with 12 mana, he beats for 32 damage, which should be enough^^. And he's an elf, too.

TheBirdMan
12-19-2008, 09:36 AM
2. 8 Lord + 2 Entities is way to much.


These are great since counterbalance is everywhere and 3cc is rarely hit off flips.

Illissius
12-19-2008, 10:38 AM
One of the few constants in nearly all my Elves lists was 4 Symbiote. It's just so ridiculous -- protects your dudes, boosts your mana, does combat tricks, recurs Messengers (and Battlemages). Why would you play any less?

Zach Tartell
12-19-2008, 10:42 AM
One of the few constants in nearly all my Elves lists was 4 Symbiote. It's just so ridiculous -- protects your dudes, boosts your mana, does combat tricks, recurs Messengers (and Battlemages). Why would you play any less?

Which battlemagi are you running?

Illissius
12-19-2008, 11:22 AM
Thornscape

Di
12-19-2008, 03:43 PM
One of the few constants in nearly all my Elves lists was 4 Symbiote. It's just so ridiculous -- protects your dudes, boosts your mana, does combat tricks, recurs Messengers (and Battlemages). Why would you play any less?

In a list with Survival, you don't need the full complement as it's so easy to find. But it's funny you mention that because I started at 1 and worked my way up to 3 when I found I wanted it more and more. It'll probably stay at 3-4 though.

Also, it turns out I like Wren's Run Packmaster. It's phenomenal Engineered Plague hate. Colossus is decent too, but Packmaster is a beating against like every deck.

Nessaja
12-20-2008, 06:28 PM
Hey, I don't have a lot of experience with survival elves. Normal elves however... I've been playing non-stop since september.

First off, I know this is basphemy for a lot of Elf players but how much does Wren's Run Vanquisher -really- offer you? I will immediatly admit that it's a great card against aggro, but it's a bit of an egocentric card, it doesn't offer much synergy with your allied elves.

4 Llanowar + 4 Fyndhorn Elves is likely far too much, I guess survival wil eat up some of your mana as well, and with survival you'll have less trouble with dead cards, but having an opening hand with just 1/1 mana producers isn't something elves can afford.

Eladamri is an amazing card, not only shroud -really- but forestwalk is makes your elves unblockable in 70% of the MU's in the current meta. Sure your tricks with Mirror Entity won't work, but you can always return Eladamri to hand the turn before you're going to do it. Not a small thing, you can draw it off Sylvan Messenger, that really does make the difference. I wouldn't advocate running more then 2 though.

Elvish Visionary I rate extremely high, and not because I saw it in extended, as soon as Alara came out I knew it was the perfect card for elves. It's practically a mini Sylvan Messenger, the great thing though, it's cheap you can cast it early and it's a great target for Wirewood Symbiote to return to hand early on. Test them out and you'll see what I mean, it just gives this deck an extra punch.

Rofellos is a great 1-off. Yes, Priest of Titania is better, but even though Rofellos doesn't offer quite as much mana, if it nets 3 mana it's still an amazing mana producer, getting 3 shouldn't be a problem.

I diversified my mana producers by adding 2 Heritage Druids, they give you instant mana from creatures that shouldn't even be able to produce mana at all. Every creature becomes a potential llanowar elf. Works great when you landed a messenger, you can play your entire hand even without a Priest of Titania.

Good luck with the list, it looks promising. Not that much a fan of Survival as I feel like it makes an aggro deck slower, at the same time when it goes to the long game a card like survival gives you great advantage.

~

edgewalker
12-20-2008, 08:16 PM
Eledamri shuts down your symbiotes and and your rangers. He's really not that great.

Xenos
12-20-2008, 08:28 PM
Hey, I don't have a lot of experience with survival elves. Normal elves however... I've been playing non-stop since september.

First off, I know this is basphemy for a lot of Elf players but how much does Wren's Run Vanquisher -really- offer you? I will immediatly admit that it's a great card against aggro, but it's a bit of an egocentric card, it doesn't offer much synergy with your allied elves.

4 Llanowar + 4 Fyndhorn Elves is likely far too much, I guess survival wil eat up some of your mana as well, and with survival you'll have less trouble with dead cards, but having an opening hand with just 1/1 mana producers isn't something elves can afford.

Eladamri is an amazing card, not only shroud -really- but forestwalk is makes your elves unblockable in 70% of the MU's in the current meta. Sure your tricks with Mirror Entity won't work, but you can always return Eladamri to hand the turn before you're going to do it. Not a small thing, you can draw it off Sylvan Messenger, that really does make the difference. I wouldn't advocate running more then 2 though.

Elvish Visionary I rate extremely high, and not because I saw it in extended, as soon as Alara came out I knew it was the perfect card for elves. It's practically a mini Sylvan Messenger, the great thing though, it's cheap you can cast it early and it's a great target for Wirewood Symbiote to return to hand early on. Test them out and you'll see what I mean, it just gives this deck an extra punch.

Rofellos is a great 1-off. Yes, Priest of Titania is better, but even though Rofellos doesn't offer quite as much mana, if it nets 3 mana it's still an amazing mana producer, getting 3 shouldn't be a problem.

I diversified my mana producers by adding 2 Heritage Druids, they give you instant mana from creatures that shouldn't even be able to produce mana at all. Every creature becomes a potential llanowar elf. Works great when you landed a messenger, you can play your entire hand even without a Priest of Titania.

Good luck with the list, it looks promising. Not that much a fan of Survival as I feel like it makes an aggro deck slower, at the same time when it goes to the long game a card like survival gives you great advantage.

~

You are wrong on so many points.

First of all 8 Llanowar Elves is the perfect number. No more, no less. Because on average you want 1 in your opening hand. That is the only way to combo off on turn 3 with a Survival. Any less than 8 Llanowar Elves and you will have to combo out much later and slower.

Rofellos is not required. 0 is the correct amount. The deck already has far too many weak draws, you don't want to add more weak mana producers when you don't need it. It doesn't help the deck. You should instead be replacing it with a "threat card", not another "support card"

Elvish Visionary is terrible, way too slow for this deck, or for legacy for that matter.

Eladamri is absolute junk ever since it wasn't an elf anymore. It doesn't protect anything. If they were to use a removal spell they would just use it on your eladamri. It doesn't save anything. It's still losing 1-for-1 whether it's losing your eladamri or another elf. Either way you will be losing a card to the removal spell with or without him. It's just a 2/2 body basically that can't trade itself "1-for-1" easily. It doesn't neutralize any other card therefore it is weak. The only thing is it gives forestwalk, but IT DOES NOTHING ON ITS OWN!! it requires you to have superior board position to have any decent effect. Whenever a card is weak on its own, it is usually junk. Elvish Champion is far superior for Forestwalk in any case.



But the main thing is 8 Llanowar Elves is absolutely critical in this deck. This is not a normal Survival Deck, this is a 3rd turn Survival combo deck and you need to play a Llanowar first turn for that to happen more consistantly.


I've been tweaking this deck since 2005. I've tested hundreds of games with it. This is just from my own experience.


And to the topic starter, GRW is far less consistant than GR version with Timberwatch Elf. You don't need Mirror infinte combo. You just play it a bit differently with Priest/Messenger until you get a bunch of Timberwatches and/or quirions for trampling Messengers ftw. 40+ trample damage on average. Still 3rd turn win and still just as consistant. is a far stronger consistant plus Timberwatch is vastly underrated it is a bomb with Quirion especially, and doesn't suck up your mana like the mirror, and doesn't require white splash. I'm too lazy to explain, but I think you should test it. It's far more smooth in my opinion. Also worthy of testing is Masked Admirers, it's less consistant but can win 3rd turn also with correct searching technique.

Nessaja
12-20-2008, 11:06 PM
You people are ofcourse entitled to your opinion.

First of, on Eladamri, he doesn't do anything else then Wirewood Symbiote does in terms of protection, meaning he takes away 1 removal spell before they can start killing your significant creatures. Then take in account that he offers 3 things that Wirewood Symbiote does not:

1. He gives your creatures forestwalk.
2. He's fetchable with Sylvan Messenger.
3. He's an elf so gets bonuses from lords.
4. He adds mana to Priest of Titania.
5. With lords in play, he actually isn't easily killable by burn spells, turned out to be a big plus against Goblins and GoyfSligh.

Setting up protection for the rest of your elves is totally worth the cost of not being able to untap your elves against most decks. However, if you do want to combo off, return him to hand EOT opponents turn and have fun. I doubt you would play this card if you were going for the combo win though.

As for Rofellos, the right amount of mana producers for my deck is 12. As I determined 8 Llanowar/Fyndhorn as not ideal - and tested it with 8 for a long time, always the same conclusion - I decided that I really don't need that many 1/1 vanilla mana producers. Rofellos might be a strictly inferior version of Priest of Titania, he's still the second best mana producing elf in Legacy, I'd pick him over the 8th Llanowar Elves any day.

As for Elvish Visionary, since when is any form of card advantage not fit for legacy? When mana is in excess, which should happen with 3 cradles, 4 Priest of Titania and in my case Heritage Druid the only limiting factor is cards available. An Elf that gets all the benefits from the lords and cantrips as well is exactly what a deck that has mana in excess needs.

Our differences in views most likely has more to do with that I feel like the combo in this deck is far too fragile in the format and that more often then not you will need to take the aggro route instead. As I said, I play my own version of Aggro elves, from my expience, opposing decks aren't going to give you anything. Any significant creature will be destroyed asap, especially a Priest of Titania or Wirewood Symbiote are going to receive a counter or a removal spell and if they don't you're probably playing against combo and will probably lose the next turn. So really, the only way to win as far as I'm concerned is either by protecting your significant creatures or by getting card advantage over them.

In addition; I think if you want to play combo, you're likely better off with a true combo deck instead. And while having the combo around doesnt hurt much as it requires a small card investment, designing the rest of your deck around it seems to me like a bad idea in the legacy format.

Xenos
12-21-2008, 12:39 AM
You people are ofcourse entitled to your opinion.

First of, on Eladamri, he doesn't do anything else then Wirewood Symbiote does in terms of protection, meaning he takes away 1 removal spell before they can start killing your significant creatures.

See, that was basically my point. You may as well just replace Eladamri WITH a significant creature to begin with. Then instead of protecting a significant creature you would instead have 2 significant creatures instead. Eladamri was only good when it was errertad to an elf. Because then it would make many cards in the opponents deck useless, therefore virtual card advantage. However it is no longer an elf, and does little on its own because itself is an outlet for the opponents removal cards. Therefore it is weak. It is in fact a card disadvantage because a) it can't trade itself for another card easily being a 2/2; fails to neutralize at least 1 oppent's card b) Doesn't threaten to win on it's own; relies on other cards to be usefull. It is very close to being a card disadvantage just by playing it.



Then take in account that he offers 3 things that Wirewood Symbiote does not:

1. He gives your creatures forestwalk.
2. He's fetchable with Sylvan Messenger.
3. He's an elf so gets bonuses from lords.
4. He adds mana to Priest of Titania.
5. With lords in play, he actually isn't easily killable by burn spells, turned out to be a big plus against Goblins and GoyfSligh.

With lords in play, if they can't burn Eladamri, then it would be hard to kill any other card you could have played rather than Eladamri to begin with. That's a moot point. Wren's Run Vanquisher is superior to Eladamri, just to provide an example of something better than him. It easily neutralizes a card on its own, and is bigger.



Setting up protection for the rest of your elves is totally worth the cost of not being able to untap your elves against most decks. However, if you do want to combo off, return him to hand EOT opponents turn and have fun. I doubt you would play this card if you were going for the combo win though.

As for Rofellos, the right amount of mana producers for my deck is 12. As I determined 8 Llanowar/Fyndhorn as not ideal - and tested it with 8 for a long time, always the same conclusion - I decided that I really don't need that many 1/1 vanilla mana producers. Rofellos might be a strictly inferior version of Priest of Titania, he's still the second best mana producing elf in Legacy, I'd pick him over the 8th Llanowar Elves any day.

As for Elvish Visionary, since when is any form of card advantage not fit for legacy? When mana is in excess, which should happen with 3 cradles, 4 Priest of Titania and in my case Heritage Druid the only limiting factor is cards available. An Elf that gets all the benefits from the lords and cantrips as well is exactly what a deck that has mana in excess needs.

Our differences in views most likely has more to do with that I feel like the combo in this deck is far too fragile in the format and that more often then not you will need to take the aggro route instead. As I said, I play my own version of Aggro elves, from my expience, opposing decks aren't going to give you anything. Any significant creature will be destroyed asap, especially a Priest of Titania or Wirewood Symbiote are going to receive a counter or a removal spell and if they don't you're probably playing against combo and will probably lose the next turn. So really, the only way to win as far as I'm concerned is either by protecting your significant creatures or by getting card advantage over them.

In addition; I think if you want to play combo, you're likely better off with a true combo deck instead. And while having the combo around doesnt hurt much as it requires a small card investment, designing the rest of your deck around it seems to me like a bad idea in the legacy format.

Rofellos is weak... it doesn't even fit into the gameplan of the deck. You want to play a mana producer on turn 1. You need 8 Llanowar Elves Mathematically to achieve that on average. Any less than that and the consistancy of that gameplan drops significantly. The correct amount of mana producers is not 12. The correct amount is always as minimal as necessary according to the gameplan. there's already a huge imbalance of "support cards" (ie lands, mana producers) and "theat cards" (cards that win) in this deck. The average sucessful legacy deck has around 20 or less "support cards" most of which are lands. This type of elf deck can easy have more than 30. a "threat card" is a card that can either "trade 1 for 1" or threaten to win on its own. Rofellos is a support card. Adding more UNNECESSARY mana production like rofellos is only going to weaken the deck. It's a good card, BUT NOT NECESSARY. Whenever you can cut a support card for a threat card it should be done. therefore Rofellos should be cut. the only reason llanowar Elves is in this deck is because the gameplan is to drop a mana-producer on turn 1 so that you can hope for 3 mana on turn 2. If the gameplan didn't need llanowar Elves it would be cut for a threat card too, but it does. Nothing in the deck should be revolving around Survival anyhow, it should fit in just because it happens to work. Playing 8 llanowar Elves has little to do with supporting the survival combo, it just so happens that it does. The deck needs first turn acceleration and thats the main reason there is 8.

edgewalker
12-21-2008, 05:36 AM
You people are ofcourse entitled to your opinion.

First of, on Eladamri, he doesn't do anything else then Wirewood Symbiote does in terms of protection, meaning he takes away 1 removal spell before they can start killing your significant creatures. Then take in account that he offers 3 things that Wirewood Symbiote does not:

1. He gives your creatures forestwalk.
2. He's fetchable with Sylvan Messenger.
3. He's an elf so gets bonuses from lords.
4. He adds mana to Priest of Titania.
5. With lords in play, he actually isn't easily killable by burn spells, turned out to be a big plus against Goblins and GoyfSligh.

Setting up protection for the rest of your elves is totally worth the cost of not being able to untap your elves against most decks. However, if you do want to combo off, return him to hand EOT opponents turn and have fun. I doubt you would play this card if you were going for the combo win though.


You can't compare those two cards since they fill two different roles. Not only does symbiote act as protection for your elves. It also acts as a means to produce fact amounts of mana (which has been stated all throughout this thread) You don't need a useless card like elvish visionary when you can bounce Sylvan Messenger multiple times in a turn. Symbiote just has better card quality than Eledamri.

Wargoos
12-21-2008, 06:01 AM
Also, it turns out I like Wren's Run Packmaster. It's phenomenal Engineered Plague hate. Colossus is decent too, but Packmaster is a beating against like every deck.
So he deserves a MD Slot?
But what to cut?

Nessaja
12-21-2008, 07:32 AM
See, that was basically my point. You may as well just replace Eladamri WITH a significant creature to begin with. Then instead of protecting a significant creature you would instead have 2 significant creatures instead.

Don't fool yourself now, the deck posted in the opening post only has 16 elves that are worthwhile of killing. And there isn't any elf you can put in there that would be worthwhile of killing just as much when compared to Priest of Titania or the Lords/Mirror. You're talking as if you got a deck full of significant creatures but that's hardly the case.


a) it can't trade itself for another card easily being a 2/2; fails to neutralize at least 1 oppent's card b) Doesn't threaten to win on it's own; relies on other cards to be usefull. It is very close to being a card disadvantage just by playing it.
The same can be said about wirewood symbiote really. That really isn't a viable argument to not play him.


With lords in play, if they can't burn Eladamri, then it would be hard to kill any other card you could have played rather than Eladamri to begin with.
It's the difference between needing 2 or 3 lords in play. Considering that 2 lords is what you would draw on average that seems rather significant to me.


You can't compare those two cards since they fill two different roles. Not only does symbiote act as protection for your elves. It also acts as a means to produce fact amounts of mana (which has been stated all throughout this thread) You don't need a useless card like elvish visionary when you can bounce Sylvan Messenger multiple times in a turn. Symbiote just has better card quality than Eledamri.

You're not telling me anything new. The ability of mana production from Wirewood Symbiote is most definitly win more though. If you can afford to use his ability to untap one of your own creatures - and the only worthwhile creature in your deck to do that with is Priest of Titania. Then you probably already won in practice. In a real game however the Symbiote either instantly gets killed or your opponent reacts on the symbiotes ability by killing a significant creature.

Hear what you're talking about, bouncing Sylvan Messenger multiple times a turn, you do realize that if you can bounce a messenger once you've already practically won? Bouncing a visionary is a trick yo use when you're actually play against a competent deck that is making your life hard, it can put you from card disadvantage to card advantage when you're having dead draws. Exactly like Eladamri, they shine in the hard matchups instead of being win-more on the easy ones.


Rofellos is weak... it doesn't even fit into the gameplan of the deck. You want to play a mana producer on turn 1. You need 8 Llanowar Elves Mathematically to achieve that on average. Any less than that and the consistancy of that gameplan drops significantly. The correct amount of mana producers is not 12. The correct amount is always as minimal as necessary according to the gameplan.
Ironically, without me ever seeing this topic I came to the conclusion that any more then 12 mana producers would flood my hand with them. As seen in the opening post, the same choice is made. 12 just happends to be the minimum in a 60 card elf deck with a typical curve. So as far as I'm concerned, the right amount is 12. That said, how you fill that amount in should be the second thing to tackle. If it's really the case that a turn 2 survival is absolutely essential for this deck then I'll talk no more as my experience with survival in specific is limited. However, when you're talking about the aggro side of your deck Rofellos is so much better then that last llanowar elf.

Xenos
12-21-2008, 04:49 PM
Don't fool yourself now, the deck posted in the opening post only has 16 elves that are worthwhile of killing. And there isn't any elf you can put in there that would be worthwhile of killing just as much when compared to Priest of Titania or the Lords/Mirror. You're talking as if you got a deck full of significant creatures but that's hardly the case.


The same can be said about wirewood symbiote really. That really isn't a viable argument to not play him.


false. Symbiote can neutralize a card easily. For example chump blocking a Goyf and bouncing back the elf. that's 1 for 1 given that you have an elf in play. Eladamri only protects against removal spells, it can't neutralize a card the same way Symbiote does via blocking. He's useless because it doesn't neutralize anything being a target itself to removal spells and doesn't block well neither. He's as good as a dead card unless you already have the board advantage and the opponent has a forest. Go ahead and use Eladamri, it's but it's obviously weak in many ways.

And as for Eladamri being a significant creature, it is not. There is nothing that important to protect in an Elf deck anyhow. Mirror? Priest? Lords? These are not gamebreakers the deck relies on synergies not single cards. Protecting these cards from removal spells is not necessary. Let them exchange 1-for-1 it's an even exchange. The only time a card is worth protecting is when it has a in-play value of more than 1, such as a card that can win on it's own or a card that generates big threats. Those cards have in play value of more than 1 card.. There is no 1 card winner in here that is that crucial to protect. There are tons of better options than Eladamri it's not like Elves are lacking a card pool. The card has no threat power, no defense power, and no support power. It's card value is less than 1. It is in fact a "win more" that only works when you already have the advantage.




It's the difference between needing 2 or 3 lords in play. Considering that 2 lords is what you would draw on average that seems rather significant to me.



You're not telling me anything new. The ability of mana production from Wirewood Symbiote is most definitly win more though. If you can afford to use his ability to untap one of your own creatures - and the only worthwhile creature in your deck to do that with is Priest of Titania. Then you probably already won in practice. In a real game however the Symbiote either instantly gets killed or your opponent reacts on the symbiotes ability by killing a significant creature.

Hear what you're talking about, bouncing Sylvan Messenger multiple times a turn, you do realize that if you can bounce a messenger once you've already practically won? Bouncing a visionary is a trick yo use when you're actually play against a competent deck that is making your life hard, it can put you from card disadvantage to card advantage when you're having dead draws. Exactly like Eladamri, they shine in the hard matchups instead of being win-more on the easy ones.


Ironically, without me ever seeing this topic I came to the conclusion that any more then 12 mana producers would flood my hand with them. As seen in the opening post, the same choice is made. 12 just happends to be the minimum in a 60 card elf deck with a typical curve. So as far as I'm concerned, the right amount is 12. That said, how you fill that amount in should be the second thing to tackle. If it's really the case that a turn 2 survival is absolutely essential for this deck then I'll talk no more as my experience with survival in specific is limited. However, when you're talking about the aggro side of your deck Rofellos is so much better then that last llanowar elf.


I'll end it here as I'd only be repeating myself.

Xenos
12-21-2008, 05:11 PM
So he deserves a MD Slot?
But what to cut?

Can start off by cutting those useless Squee and Wood Elves in my opinion.


Or any card that is only there because you happen to have Survivals. No deck should ever be built to revolve around 4 cards. It should be the opposite, the 4 Survivals should revolve around the deck, and just "happen" to fit in. That's maximal efficiency.

Wargoos
12-21-2008, 05:33 PM
Of course Squee isn't that good by himself (well, at least he chumps...) but with Survival he just go nuts. I guess its a question of cardquality.
Like Di said i would regard it as a necessity since survival wins by its own.
AND: Cuttin a squee for a lonely packmaster is quite odd since u'll rely on survival to get him for sure...

Furthermore i don't like the idea to cut cards that stabilize my manabase like the wood dudes do.
But since it is the weakest card in the deck i 'll try it.

Xenos
12-21-2008, 09:34 PM
Of course Squee isn't that good by himself (well, at least he chumps...) but with Survival he just go nuts. I guess its a question of cardquality.
Like Di said i would regard it as a necessity since survival wins by its own.
AND: Cuttin a squee for a lonely packmaster is quite odd since u'll rely on survival to get him for sure...

Furthermore i don't like the idea to cut cards that stabilize my manabase like the wood dudes do.
But since it is the weakest card in the deck i 'll try it.

I use to run squee in the early stages of my build, but the thing is I realised is that he is not required for several good reasons.


a) If you have cards you shouldn't be fetching a Squee to begin with because with the right build and searching techniques you should be winning on that turn instead.

b) If you need cards you should just fetch a Messenger.

c) not an elf, and even if it was, I'd still not play it.



I never once needed a squee in my build, I found it to be largely redundant and unnecessary. When I had cards I would be going for the combo, not waiting for squee engine next turn. When I needed cards, Messenger was always much stronger than a Squee.

Squee is playable, it's decent card, but not required, that's all.

Di
12-22-2008, 12:02 AM
Can start off by cutting those useless Squee and Wood Elves in my opinion.


Or any card that is only there because you happen to have Survivals. No deck should ever be built to revolve around 4 cards. It should be the opposite, the 4 Survivals should revolve around the deck, and just "happen" to fit in. That's maximal efficiency.

Squee is the weakest maindeck slot right now, so that's the best possibility. I'm personally just a little uncomfortable removing him, because I've won a handful of games because of it. There's been more than enough times where having him (being another creature in my hand by dumping him the previous turn) has allowed me to do a lot more stuff. It doesn't force you to rely on Messenger for CA, which can be slow seeing how it costs 3G.

Wood Elves is very dependant on your playstyle with the deck. A majority of the time if I have Survival I will go to the throat with the Mirror Entity kill. If it requires Wood Elves, then I'll take the shot. Even without that, I haven't minded drawing it or anything.


Otherwise I'm unsure atm. The only other slot I'd look at is the 4th Perfect, which I'm almost ok with doing.

georgjorge
12-24-2008, 06:01 PM
I too think that the Entity combo is unneeded - just imagine what would happen if instead of Entity + 1 mana activation, you'd drop Messenger, then use Symbiote to untap Priest and bounce Messenger. At that point, you should be able to get more Priests or Rangers, create mana, get more Messengers, and finally just attack with at least four Messengers and two or three lords. I don't even think Timberwatch Elves are needed.


Also, I've tried it a lot, but I think third turn wins aren't very common. From what I know, you'd need Survival, two lands (one of them a Fetch), and at least six creatures for Survival (one of them a Llanowar). That's nine cards, meaning that if they somehow kill ANY of them, no combo. And that's pretty likely. Or maybe some-one could give me examples of a third turn kill that requires less cards ? I'd be grateful.

rsaunder
12-24-2008, 06:50 PM
Land, Queer ranger.
Land, Priest
Land, entity, Symbiote via priest for two, use priest's remaining floating mana to entity for 1. Then just do broken things with ranger then combo off.

Di
12-24-2008, 11:19 PM
I too think that the Entity combo is unneeded - just imagine what would happen if instead of Entity + 1 mana activation, you'd drop Messenger, then use Symbiote to untap Priest and bounce Messenger. At that point, you should be able to get more Priests or Rangers, create mana, get more Messengers, and finally just attack with at least four Messengers and two or three lords. I don't even think Timberwatch Elves are needed.

This requires a lot more effort and luck as well. Prior to me adding Mirror Entity that scenario you described was my main means of winning. It's much harder to do and is a lot more mana intensive. Plus there'd be times when I'd either wiff completely on Messenger or hit only one elf. At that point it's wasteful. Mirror Entity on its own, not even with the Symbiote combo, provides massive beats and allows you to go over the top compared to other aggro decks.


Also, I've tried it a lot, but I think third turn wins aren't very common. From what I know, you'd need Survival, two lands (one of them a Fetch), and at least six creatures for Survival (one of them a Llanowar). That's nine cards, meaning that if they somehow kill ANY of them, no combo. And that's pretty likely. Or maybe some-one could give me examples of a third turn kill that requires less cards ? I'd be grateful.

Third turn kills are difficult, and can greatly differ on how they're played on depending on your draws, land drops, and non-creatures in the opening hand. Often times it will involve using multiple Wirewood Symbiotes to build mana and return creatures to pitch away. With Survival the most common way to do it is through opening a mana elf and at least one combo piece. After a couple games just played, I opened up the following hand:

Windswept Heath
Llanowar Elves
Taiga
Survival of the Fittest
Elvish Champion
Wren's Run Vanquisher
Wirewood Symbiote

For the sake of simplicity, let's just assume this is a goldfish so you know how to do it. I was also on the play here.

Turn 1: Windswept Heath -> Savannah, Llanowar Elves.

Turn 2: Draw Llanowar Elves. Play Taiga, Survival of the Fittest. Eot, Survival Wren's Run Vanquisher for Anger.

Turn 3: Draw Sylvan Messenger. We drew a creature so it's possible to win:
Survival Anger for Priest of Titania.
Play Llanowar Elves.
Tap both Elves to cast Priest.
(At this point, all lands and Elves are tapped, and have Elvish Champion, Wirewood Symbiote, and Sylvan Messenger in hand).
Tap Priest of Titania for GGG.
Survival Elvish Champion for Quirion Ranger, cast Quirion Ranger (G floating).
Activate Quirion Ranger returning Savannah and untap Priest of Titania.
Play Savannah.
Tap Priest of Titania for GGGG, Survival Sylvan Messenger for Mirror Entity. Tap the Savannah, cast Mirror Entity (G floating)
Cast Wirewood Symbiote
Activate Wirewood Symbiote, returning Llanowar Elves to untap Priest of Titania.
Tap Priest of Titania for GGGG (Llanowar, itself, Quirion, Entity), Survival the Llanowar Elves just returned to hand for Wirewood Symbiote.
Cast Wirewood Symbiote (GG floating).
Activate Mirror Entity for 1, return Symbiote, Tap Priest, repeat. Infinate mana, untap all creatures, do whatever, win.


Clearly it can be vulnerable as creature removal can stop that, but you aren't just going to go for it if the possibilities are slim, but the point is you can clearly achieve it. It takes a bit to pull off, but I've done the turn 3 kill in over a dozen different fashions.


Also on an unrelated note, I've cut Squee from the deck. Randomly drawing it and flipping it on Messenger came to the point where I'd get angry. My list isn't final yet, but I'll update it soon enough.

georgjorge
12-25-2008, 10:59 AM
Thanks for explaining the combo ! But it seems that it can't really be done with less than 6 creatures, pity really. The combo rsaunder posted works of course since you save mana for Survival, but it's REALLY unlikely to get the four creatures you need in the first three turns without using Survival.

Di
12-25-2008, 12:28 PM
Thanks for explaining the combo ! But it seems that it can't really be done with less than 6 creatures, pity really. The combo rsaunder posted works of course since you save mana for Survival, but it's REALLY unlikely to get the four creatures you need in the first three turns without using Survival.

Part of the reason I run multiples of Mirror Entity and Wirewood Symbiote, in addition to them being very good by themselves, is to raise the possibility of doing the combo outside Survival. It doesn't happen too often, but I've done it a few times.

Also, I realize the high number of creatures needed for the turn 3 win, but also remember that there are only 22 cards in the deck (4 Survival + 22 land) that aren't creatures, so you already have a very high chance of drawing a lot of them. Turn 3 is slightly hard as they are all similar to the scenario I posted above, but turn 4 is much easier. Either you have an extra land or an extra creature, but either way it adds a lot more to it.

Xenos
12-25-2008, 06:46 PM
The third turn kill can be delayed very easily that's true. Turn three wins happen all the time in Goldfishing but in real games it usually takes on average 3-7 (or more) turns depending on how much they are disrupting you.

But you're constantly making that threat to combo off and it keeps your opponent busy trying to stop it, so it does its job whether or not you actually pull it off.

As for the 6 creatures needed to combo, that's not necessarily true. The process of the combo itself is building up your creature count to the point of which you win. I don't know if that is what you meant or if you were saying you need 6 creatures to begin this process. I've often started with 1 or 2 Elves on the board and suddenly had my whole deck layed out on that same turn. I haven't determined the exact "rule" of how much mana/cards you need but often if you can get a Priest + 1 elf or more, and can manage to play a Messenger, there's a big chance that you can win on that turn, if undisrupted of course.

Anyways, with Savannahs, 4 Absolute Law should be considered for sideboard to swap for the Survivals in some matchups.

Atwa
12-29-2008, 04:06 PM
At the moment I'm testing this build, if it works out well I might even play it in the dutch tournament to win a planeticket and hotel to the GP:

4 Forest
3 Taiga
3 Savannah
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
1 Gaea's Cradle

4 Survival of the Fittest

4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Priestof Titania
4 Elvish Champion
4 Sylvan Messenger
3 Imperious Perfect
3 Wren's Run Vanquisher
3 Wirewood Symbiote
2 Quirion Ranger
2 Mirror Entity
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Wood Elves
1 Thornweald Archer
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger

SB:
3 Orim's Chant
3 Pithing Needle
3 Krosan Grip
2 Choke
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Gaddock Teeg

I really like the singleton Cradle in here, you almost never have in in your opening hand as your only land and it's pretty good when you draw it when builing up. The only problem I have with it is that it's vunrable against Wasteland.

Other than that, I guess this is pretty much a basic list. Are there any updates on the deck other should know about? I'm really tempted to include at least 1 Eternal Witness to the list.

Di
12-29-2008, 04:35 PM
I'm going to assume Anger and Sylvan Messenger are supposed to be in there somewhere? Your list is only 54 cards, so I imagine you just forgot them, along with something else, which in my list would be Wren's Run Packmaster (your list also runs Squee over my 18th land). Packmaster has been very good for me, I'm really impressed with it. I've never been unhappy drawing it, as it provides a great role as a beater and make a lot of additional beaters. It's certainly better than Chameleon Colossus.


3 Orim's Chant
3 Pithing Needle
3 Krosan Grip
2 Choke
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Gaddock Teeg


My test board is looking very similar to this. Currently, it looks like this:

4 Krosan Grip
4 Orim's Chant
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Magus of the Moon
2 Choke
1 Caller of the Claw


This is pretty much solely focusing on the deck's worst matchups, being combo and dedicated board control. Landstill-esque decks might be the hardest matchup, but I've found them quite winnable too. I doubt that board is finalized for me, though.


On another note, I've been getting flooded with 18 lands recently. It's weird. I don't want to go below 18 because I like hitting 2-3 in my opening hand, but it really gets aggravating if I draw more than 4. I'm not sure what I'm going to do about it yet. I'm still testing Elvish Spirit Guide as well but I'm 50/50 on how I feel about that. It's possible for me to cut a land for one as a singleton, but at that point the land would just be better. But I'd still like to give ESG, maybe as a 2 or 3of a try, because it accelerates the deck incredibly well for first turn Survival or Priest, or even turn 1 Thorn or Gaddock Teeg post-board.

Atwa
12-29-2008, 05:08 PM
You were right, I forgot the Anger and Messengers.



On another note, I've been getting flooded with 18 lands recently. It's weird. I don't want to go below 18 because I like hitting 2-3 in my opening hand, but it really gets aggravating if I draw more than 4. I'm not sure what I'm going to do about it yet. I'm still testing Elvish Spirit Guide as well but I'm 50/50 on how I feel about that. It's possible for me to cut a land for one as a singleton, but at that point the land would just be better. But I'd still like to give ESG, maybe as a 2 or 3of a try, because it accelerates the deck incredibly well for first turn Survival or Priest, or even turn 1 Thorn or Gaddock Teeg post-board.

I found a solution in this by playing a single Gaea's Cradle. This gives you the mana you need most of the time and keeps your land around 2/3, which is enough when playing so many mana-elves.

I need to test out Packmaster, I had it in the board for a while, but never actually sided it in.

About the sideboard, I really don't know yet. I'm planning on ging to this turnament after a brake of 1.5 year of tournament play, so I have no idea what to expect at the moment.

Di
01-04-2009, 08:44 PM
Here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12374) is my report on my top8 finish with the deck. It was my first tournament with the deck, so I played a bit sloppy and even though I've been testing it and working for a couple months, was picking up things throughout the day. The list and sideboard are both a bit different than what I've been running, but it was a metagame decision.


Some thoughts on the deck itself though:

- My initial thoughts regarding the lords are correct. I wouldn't run any less than 8. Very rarely you can get stuck with under 3 mana and could have them clogged in hand, but otherwise they are straight gold. Either Perfect or Champion won me a majority of my games, and I always wanted to see more of them.

- Wren's Run Vanquisher is ridiculous. I don't know how I went down to two. Those will be going up. Packmaster will most likely be cut for another. Packmaster is good, but Vanquisher only costs 1G, so that can matter.

- 3 Symbiote is the correct number. I wouldn't run any more or less.

- Wood Elves needs to stay in the deck. There were a few games I couldn't have won without it, and it was always decent when I saw it otherwise.

- The deck's best matchups are blue, but there still should be sideboard geared towards them given how popular blue decks are. I only ran two Choke and I wanted more, they were gold whenever they stuck.

- Combo still sucks, but I don't know if it's worth putting so much effort in to fix. Even with all that hate it's still a miserable matchup.


Things I want to get around to testing:

- Wasteland. This deck is always ahead early game. It will always have more mana and more permanents. But sometimes I want another push so the opponent can't come back and stabilize. I was wishing Wasteland was in my deck all day because if I hit an opponent's land on turn 1-3 half the time they would've been so far behind it'd be difficult to catch up.

- Sideboard Price of Progress. A big issue this deck has is finishing once the opponent begins to stabilize. Often times you'll rush early and put them down really low on life, but need to work really hard for the last ~5 damage or so. Price is awesome against nearly the entire format, so it'd be dealing roughly 6-10 damage on average.

Otherwise everything was really good. I'm unsure as to what I'm going to do about my next list, I suppose only testing will figure that out for me.

Atwa
01-04-2009, 11:19 PM
Again congratulations on the finish.

I've been toying a bit with the ESG build for an hour or so now, and I understand now why you really can't decide between a build with or without them. Maybe it's totally play style (and meta) dependent.

Just a few other questions:

- I understand you want more Vanquishers, but did you ever miss the Archer? I know this deck should be able to win before cards like Mystic Enforcer and Tombstalker become dangerous, but when playing real matches I've encountered problems with Sui and the like (because of the heavy discard), which runs Tombstalker.

- Ever thinking about going back to Squee? I liked him since it allows you to keep creature-light hands with Survival in it, but I can see why at least in an ESG build it needs to be cut to make room.

- After playing a bit with Packmaster, I don't think it should be cut. I've even had people playing Needle on Mirror Entity, Packmaster is a nice out to this, plus it allows you to (semi-)combo out without white mana.

- What do you normally side out? In my opinion we shouldn't touch the combo itself, in the end I normally end op siding out singletons of Wood Elf, Llanowar, Perfect/Champion (depending on the matchup), a Quirion Ranger and such.

All in all, I feel the deck keeps getting stronger as I play more with it. Must be the experience I'm getting with it, but I keep seeing more and more ridiculous plays with it.

I still want to put an Eternal Witness in there, although testing has shown it doesn't really work unless you put 2/3 in, for which we don't have the room. Getting back a Zealot against a deck packing 4 Deeds main would be nice.

Di
01-05-2009, 12:09 AM
Again congratulations on the finish.

I've been toying a bit with the ESG build for an hour or so now, and I understand now why you really can't decide between a build with or without them. Maybe it's totally play style (and meta) dependent.

Just a few other questions:

- I understand you want more Vanquishers, but did you ever miss the Archer? I know this deck should be able to win before cards like Mystic Enforcer and Tombstalker become dangerous, but when playing real matches I've encountered problems with Sui and the like (because of the heavy discard), which runs Tombstalker.

- Ever thinking about going back to Squee? I liked him since it allows you to keep creature-light hands with Survival in it, but I can see why at least in an ESG build it needs to be cut to make room.

- After playing a bit with Packmaster, I don't think it should be cut. I've even had people playing Needle on Mirror Entity, Packmaster is a nice out to this, plus it allows you to (semi-)combo out without white mana.

- What do you normally side out? In my opinion we shouldn't touch the combo itself, in the end I normally end op siding out singletons of Wood Elf, Llanowar, Perfect/Champion (depending on the matchup), a Quirion Ranger and such.

All in all, I feel the deck keeps getting stronger as I play more with it. Must be the experience I'm getting with it, but I keep seeing more and more ridiculous plays with it.

I still want to put an Eternal Witness in there, although testing has shown it doesn't really work unless you put 2/3 in, for which we don't have the room. Getting back a Zealot against a deck packing 4 Deeds main would be nice.


Yeah the ESG thing is hit or miss, I dunno. I really love it sometimes, but then sometimes I wish it was a land. I had to throw away an AMAZING hand of ESG, Llanowar, Quirion Ranger, Priest of Titania, Survival, Elvish Champion, Sylvan Messenger because the ESG wasn't a land. I was very close to keeping that but didn't want to risk it. On the other hand, ESG was awesome against Daze. Against 4c Counterbalance my opponent tried to Daze my Survival then I pitched ESG, and he had to Force pitching Counterbalance. That was incredible. More testing will let me know, but I'm really tempted to adjust the deck a bit and put Wasteland in that slot.

1. I didn't miss the Archer, but then again, I never saw any flyers. I'm sure my stance would've changed a bit if I sat across from Tombstalkers and such, but I think if I went back to that slot it'd be another Vanquisher. The fact it's a 3/3 is huge. I won a few games on his back alone.

2. I probably won't go back to using Squee. The only time I wanted it throughout the day was when I was in topdeck mode with a Survival in play against Dreadstill, but at that point I was so far behind it wouldn't have mattered if I had Squee or not.

3. Being a mana sink is one of the best benefits for Packmaster. I'm not sure I'd cut it outright because it can be very good, but I'm just not sure. I need to find room for another Vanquisher somewhere, and that's the most flexible slot.

4. I admittedly don't know how to sideboard well with this deck; it's very hard. Throughout the day I was boarding very weird. If I was adding in 6+ cards, 1-2 Messengers would come out, along with stuff like Wood Elves, a Ranger, maybe a Symbiote, a lord, etc. If I was Bringing in Moon I'd take out 1 Entity. I didn't actually do this, but after talking about it with Birdman we think boarding out a Survival or two is the right call in a few cases. Post-board it can be rather weak in a lot of matchups as it's difficult to abuse outright, but is still strong enough to keep in the deck. It's something I'm hoping I can nail down by the time GP Chicago rolls around.

5. Eternal Witness is something I wanted a few times throughout the day, but so weak by itself in here that I can't justify running it.

Atwa
01-05-2009, 11:39 AM
I am going to test this plan for a while:
Threshold (w Counterbalance):
-1 Fyndhorn
-1 Perfect/Wood Elves (perfect if he plays wastelands)
-1 Survival of the Fittest
-1 Mirror Entity
+2 Choke
+2 Krosan Grip

Threshold (wo Counterbalance):
-1 Zealot
-1 Perfect/Wood Elves (perfect if he plays wastelands)
+2 Choke

Goblins:
-1 Fyndhorn
-1 Symbiote
-1 Perfect/Champion (Perfect if he plays Rg)
+3 Pithing Needle

Dreadstill:
-1 Wood Elves
-1 Quirion Ranger
-1 Elvish Champion
-1 Llanowar
-1 Sylvan Messenger
+2 Choke
+3 Krosan Grip

Landstill:
-1 Mirror Entity
-1 Wood Elves
-1 Anger
-1 Archer
-1 Quirion Ranger
-1 Llanowar
-2 Survival
+3 Krosan Grip
+2 Choke
+2 Pithing Needle
+1 Magus

Ichorid:
-1 Zealot
-1 Llanowar
-1 Elvish Champion
+2 Thorn of Amethyst
+1 Gaddock Teeg

I'm not sure at the moment what to use against Aggro Loam and Combo (Chants and Thorns mostly), but here is my take on some other matches for reference.

Especially Agrro Loam worries me. My sideboard is:
3 Orim's Chant
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pithing Needle
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Choke
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Gaddock Teeg.

I'm considering at the moment: Armageddon, Caller of the Claw, Vexen Susher.

Nightmare
01-05-2009, 11:43 AM
I disagree with taking out Quirion Ranger vs. Landstill or Dreadstill. He's your best way to protect from Wasteland.

FlavaSava
01-05-2009, 12:42 PM
Landstill:
-1 Mirror Entity
-1 Wood Elves
-1 Anger
-1 Archer
-1 Quirion Ranger
-1 Llanowar
-2 Survival
+3 Krosan Grip
+2 Choke
+2 Pithing Needle
+1 Magus



I think boarding in Gaddock too is the right way (stops Humility,Wrath,EE,Elspeth,...).But I think adding 1-offs and removing Survivals which tutors for them isnt the right way.

georgjorge
01-05-2009, 04:14 PM
Congrats on the finish ! It really speaks for the deck that you were up against Dreadstill with a red splash three times and defeated two of them...huge creatures + CBalance + Pyroclasm seems tough.

Di
01-08-2009, 01:22 AM
Congrats on the finish ! It really speaks for the deck that you were up against Dreadstill with a red splash three times and defeated two of them...huge creatures + CBalance + Pyroclasm seems tough.

First off, thanks. :)

The Dreadstill matchup is highly dependent on the build they run. The list I lost to had maindeck Krosan Grips, Tarmogoyfs, and Fire/Ice, so that was much more difficult than traditional U/r builds. In the round I lost , game 2 he had a turn 2 Dreadnought with FoW backup and Wasteland to keep me off Grip mana (nuts), and game 3 he had triple FoW, double Fire/Ice, and a Firespout. I'd say a lot of luck was there as I ran over him game 1 and had a relatively easy time. And the other two times I played against it I won with relative ease but had to fight through Pyroclasm still. Even though they have a lot of bad stuff, at least post-board, I'd still say the matchup is in your favor. They have difficulty handling a lot of creatures and can get stuck with a Krosan Grip on their Dreadnought, and Counterbalance is rather weak against this deck as the bombs are all 3cc and 4cc.

Despite this, Pyroclasm/Firespout presents a huge problem for the deck. Any control deck with a red splash, whether it be Dreadstill, Threshold, Landstill, etc, will be running it. I like Caller of the Claw, but by itself I don't know if it can pull it's weight. This has been mentioned before, and I've looked at it as well but dismissed it, but I actually think something like Absolute Law needs to be re-examined as a sideboard possibility. Pyroclasm appears to be a lot more popular than Engineered Plague, and it's something this deck NEEDS to have an answer for. Unfortunately as much as I dislike Absolute Law I can't find a better answer really aside from additional Caller of the Claws. The only reason I consider Law over Caller (or rather additional Callers) is because Law is also very good against Goblins and Goyf Sligh.

I don't know if there's something that's gone over my head, but if anyone has any good ideas on how to fight Pyroclasm better please speak. Oh, and don't mention Bubble Matrix, card is worse than Absolute Law.

anonymos
01-08-2009, 12:33 PM
Somewhat derailing the topic, but amusing people none the less.

So someone mentioned that Eladamri isn't an elf anymore. I was really confused to that change. Anyway, I found an error in gatherer when I was looking it up.

http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=4757

^^ Eladamri's Gatherer Result ^^

What does giving trample have to do with Eladamri? Shouldn't it be forestwalk?

Swing4Five
01-08-2009, 03:35 PM
He is an elf, but they changed him to say "Other elves..."

The only time Trample has been mentioned in this thread is refering to pumping Sylvan Messenger.

'grats on the finish Di.

RoddyVR
01-08-2009, 04:26 PM
He is an elf, but they changed him to say "Other elves..."

The only time Trample has been mentioned in this thread is refering to pumping Sylvan Messenger.

'grats on the finish Di.

Trample has also been mentioned on the rulings text of Eladamri... hence the "found and error on gatherer" i assume.

Shawon
01-08-2009, 09:53 PM
I don't know if there's something that's gone over my head, but if anyone has any good ideas on how to fight Pyroclasm better please speak. Oh, and don't mention Bubble Matrix, card is worse than Absolute Law.

I don't know if it's a better answer, but it doesn't hurt to mention Burrenton Forge-Tender as another answer to Pyroclasm. EDIT: It is a creature, so you can search for it via Survival.

Oh, there's also Shared Triumph and Gaea's Anthem.

Hope that helps.

Di
01-08-2009, 11:50 PM
Fecundity is another possibility, and could be great against other stuff like Wrath of God, Pernicious Deed, Damnation, EE, Perish, etc. That could be really solid, but Absolute Law at least assures I keep my threats in play, not hopefully drawing into more.

I'll have to test both of them.

GGoober
01-11-2009, 01:30 AM
Something that I've been asking:

Is this better and more consistent than Glimpse Elves (wincon Grapeshot)?

I personally feel it's better since Survival shell is very consistent and has little dead cards. The cards in Glimpse Elves are dead without Glimpse or any of the combo pieces. This deck plays out as the Aggro role, beating with Elves + Lord even without Survival. I'm just wondering whether this is more competitive than any Glimpse version of Elves.

Sims
01-11-2009, 11:49 AM
It's placed in more events than Glimpse Elves has, and has just as many options of WinCons (Glimse Elves being able to Grapeshot, Tendrils, Chants during upkeep and swing with the horde, etc.) as the Survival version, and both can play the beatdown roll. I think the Glimpse version is a bit more fragile, however, but that is currently backed by results.

GGoober
01-11-2009, 12:19 PM
Something that I've been wanting to ask. Why not run Regal Force as a one-off in the deck?

It gives you steam in a deck that churns out mana so fast. Imagine the situation:

Survival + Priest + Mirror + Symbiote = Infinite mana = win through huge elves
Survival + Priest + Symbiote + no Mirror = try to chain into multiple Priests/Symbiote/Messengers and win
Survival + Priest + Mirror + Symbiote + Regal Force = lol

But in general, I'm not sure whether Regal Force is needed, but it seems that if you resolved on without survival in this deck, you get a lot of steam back. Maybe it's good in the sideboard against boardsweepers? If somehow we are able to include Regal Force without screwing the decklist too much, it might be possible to pack a Grapeshot as well when we draw into it :P

It's probably a bad idea, but just a thought

Shawon
01-11-2009, 12:54 PM
Has Nullmage Sheperd (http://sales.starcitygames.com//carddisplay.php?product=38368) been considered as an Survivable answer to CB? It's Elf, dodges CB, and it's reusable. Too good, I mean, too slow?

Xenos
01-11-2009, 03:29 PM
Something that I've been wanting to ask. Why not run Regal Force as a one-off in the deck?

It gives you steam in a deck that churns out mana so fast. Imagine the situation:

Survival + Priest + Mirror + Symbiote = Infinite mana = win through huge elves
Survival + Priest + Symbiote + no Mirror = try to chain into multiple Priests/Symbiote/Messengers and win
Survival + Priest + Mirror + Symbiote + Regal Force = lol

But in general, I'm not sure whether Regal Force is needed, but it seems that if you resolved on without survival in this deck, you get a lot of steam back. Maybe it's good in the sideboard against boardsweepers? If somehow we are able to include Regal Force without screwing the decklist too much, it might be possible to pack a Grapeshot as well when we draw into it :P

It's probably a bad idea, but just a thought

The deck feeds on elf synergies, not combos really, that's just a bonus. There's no room for that stuff nor any need. The cards you mentioned are weak on their own in any case, and don't help you unless you already have a good position. This deck functions differently than glimpse of nature builds.

GGoober
01-11-2009, 03:39 PM
Just wondering because I am playing Glimpse Aggro, not Glimpse + Grapeshot, so my list is similar to the Survival list except with the Glimpse engine. The idea is beatdown with 8 lords on turn 3. In my version, I run 4 Messengers and play similarly to this deck, but the deck only goes off with the Heritage+Sentinel engine.

Looking at the two decks, I feel that this is more competitive, because in Glimpse Elves, Heritage and Sentinel are pretty bad cards if the engine fails, and in the strict combo Glimpse Elves, you don't even get beats. I run Glimpse aggro which compensates for an aggro plan.

Looking at this list, it seems that it's a much better version of my Glimpse aggro, and has the potential to go nuts even without Survival. I was just thinking of Regal Force because in my Glimpse aggro list, I run 1, tutored by Pact (funny how Survival is so much better a tutor than Pact is), and Regal Force has always given the deck steam even if you're not winning, but I can see why we shouldn't run it. It's win-more, and does nothing when you're losing, with zero creatures on board. There are time though when you have 3-4 creatures on board without any chance of chaining into more creatures or comboing, where Regal Force helps a little. But I guess space is tight and it's not a good slot.

In my Glimpse aggro list, Wren's Run Packmaster is amazing. From my experience, I can say that Championing Perfect is a good play against decks that pack mass removal. It seems a waste to lose the pumps from Perfect, but it allows you to recover fast after a mass sweep as Perfect returns to put more 2/2 elves into play. My original Glimpse list ran Priests + Packmaster, which is a very good win con, and I advocate that Packmaster needs to be at least a 1-off in the deck as a mana sink.

Atwa
01-11-2009, 11:55 PM
I think we can write the matchup against Goyf Slight as very unfavorable.

I've been testing against it and it was a total slaughter. As long as your opponent knows what he is doing (burn all the early mana elves instead of keeping his spells for the combo pieces), you can't beat this deck.

I was testing Fecundity in the board, but that doesn't do the matchup good. Turn 3 is too slow to save your early board and after that, the opponent gains a lot of advantage too with Fanatic, Marauder and blocking creatures.

Since a lot of the other sweepers can be blocked otherwise (Teeg and Grip), I'm really temped to advocate Absolute Law in the board over Fecundity. Most of the other Matchups which use sweepers are favorable anyway, the only decks I've really had problems with so far are either combo, Landstill and decks which pack a lot of burn.

Especially Devastating Dreams is a card which really hoses us, if we can't save our lands, we should at least be able to save our other sources of mana from turn 2.

Here is the sideboard I use at the moment (non ESG build):
3 Orim's Chant
3 Krosan Grip
3 Absolute Law
2 Choke
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Magus of the Moon (I'm really thinking about switching this one for Caller)
1 Gaddock Teeg

hi-val
01-12-2009, 01:25 AM
I'm sure it's been discussed before, but what about Wirewood Herald over say, Messenger in the deck? The advantage I see is that it's got a great Moat potential; if you kill it, can I just get the last combo piece I need and kill you? It also grabs Caller of the Claw in the face of removal. I'm not sure if there's a specific elf outside of maybe a Lord that you want to grab with the guy; he does get Crib Swap and Inversion and Colossus though.

georgjorge
01-12-2009, 06:06 AM
Messenger is one of the key cards of the deck. It's the only card that provides CA outside of Survival, and with Survival it's one of the most important cards as well. The deck often wants to play aggressively, and Herald doesn't help in the least with that, as it will just sit there and attack for one instead of getting you real beaters. And since there are no bombs that Herald can fetch (except Caller against Pyroclasm), getting 2-3 random Elves is usually better than getting 1 specific Elf.


On another note, I'm trying out Elvish Lyrist (one main, one in the board). With Survival (and Anger), it gets rid of enchantments for two mana less than Acolyte. It can also come down before CBalance or Standstill, very important. And I've given up on the combo matchup altogether, because I don't want to dedicate 4-5 otherwise "useless" slots to make a horrible pre-board matchup into something like 60/40 maximum post-board, which is still bad odds. I've filled up the space with Magi of the Moon (the Landstill matchup isn't easy), and Viridian Shamans (against Jitte/Swords, Chalice/Trinisphere, Noughts etc).

GGoober
01-13-2009, 04:34 AM
I was toying around with ESGs, and I have to say, 3 is the right number in a 17-18 land build. ESG allows you to play a turn 1 Survival if you wanted to, but most importantly, it's great against Dazes. In the synergy with the deck, Messenger flipping ESG is better than flipping lands, and ESG also works great in synergy with Survival, acting as either a mana source for discarding, or a discard outlet itself.

I tested 4 ESG but wasn't too happy with the high frequencies of land + ESG. I think 3 is the right number to go. Also, ESG is great with the sideboard against combo, allowing you to drop a turn 1 Teeg/Thorn, which is a great help against ANT.decs.

Curby
01-13-2009, 12:11 PM
Fecundity is another possibility
...
Pernicious Deed

Does that work? It seems to me that by the time your critters hit the yard and Fecundity might be able to trigger, Fecundity is also out of play and thus unable to trigger. Same with EE for 3.

Di
01-13-2009, 03:24 PM
Does that work? It seems to me that by the time your critters hit the yard and Fecundity might be able to trigger, Fecundity is also out of play and thus unable to trigger. Same with EE for 3.

It still triggers. It's basically the same scenario you'd get back in Mirrodin block Standard when Akroma's Vengeance wiped out Affinity's board when Disciple was in play, and they'd still lose life.

It's rather irrelevant now because I'm almost dead set on Absolute Law. After the pounding I took from Aggro Loam the other day (Seismic Assault SUCKS. So does DD) having pro-red is absolutely huge. And it just stops all other removal beyond Swords and Snuff Out cold. I've been liking it a lot.


I was toying around with ESGs, and I have to say, 3 is the right number in a 17-18 land build. ESG allows you to play a turn 1 Survival if you wanted to, but most importantly, it's great against Dazes. In the synergy with the deck, Messenger flipping ESG is better than flipping lands, and ESG also works great in synergy with Survival, acting as either a mana source for discarding, or a discard outlet itself.

I tested 4 ESG but wasn't too happy with the high frequencies of land + ESG. I think 3 is the right number to go. Also, ESG is great with the sideboard against combo, allowing you to drop a turn 1 Teeg/Thorn, which is a great help against ANT.decs.

This is correct. I tried 4 ESG running the 4th over a land, and I ended up opening a few hands without a land but an ESG instead, where they would've been incredible hands if it was a land. I've really liked 3, primarily because of first turn Wren's Run Vanquisher and Priest of Titania. A couple days ago I had a turn 2 win against Goblins with the following hand:

Fetchland
Priest
ESG
Quirion Ranger
Mirror Entity
Wirewood Symbiote
Anger

I was on the play, and opened with the fetch grabbing Savannah, remove ESG and casting Priest. They opened with an Aether Vial. I untapped, drew another Priest, played Quirion Ranger, added GG, returned the Savannah to untap Priest, replayed the Savannah, tapped it casting Mirror Entity, tapped the Priest for GGG, played the Symbiote and went off. It was awesome.

Not saying it'll happen often as you need a lot to do it, but it's a definate possibility now.

Atwa
01-17-2009, 10:52 AM
This is the list I'm planning on playing in a tournament with first price the trip to the GP tomorrow. I think it really is a nice rogue deck, which is pretty strong overall.

3 Forest
3 Taiga
3 Savannah
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Gaea's Cradle

4 Survival of the Fittest
1 Anger
1 Wood Elves
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Wren's Run Packmaster

4 Priest of Titania
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Imperious Perfect
4 Elvish Champion
3 Wren's Run Vanquisher
1 Thornweald Archer

4 Sylvan Messenger
3 Wirewood Symbiote
2 Quirion Ranger
2 Mirror Entity

Sideboard:
3 Orim's Chant
3 Krosan Grip
3 Absolute Law
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Choke
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Gaddock Teeg

I realise I play 61 cards at the moment, but I've only recently included the 3 ESG's and I'm not sure what to cut. From my list it were a Forest and a Fyndhorn, however I feel the rest of the maindeck is pretty fixed as it is. The mana hasn't been a problem yet (from cutting the Forest).

I am however considering to cut a Taiga for another Forest, just to evade non-basic land hate. When you want to enable haste, you already have a survival in play to discard Anger, you can always search for a Wood Elves if you need a Taiga.

I have absolutely no clue what to expect from the meta, so I kept the sideboard I'm most comfortable with, which should be decent in a unknown meta.

Do people have any last minute thoughts, tips or rants?

Blitzbold
01-17-2009, 12:19 PM
I am currently testing the deck with 18 lands, two of which are Wastelands. Some observations I made:

- After initially omitting Wood Elves, Di is absolutely right in saying that it's a necessary evil as a one-of. I failed to combo out because of lacking a white source for Entity more than once.

- Wastelands are nice to have, but as this deck has no way of manipulating it's draws I sometimes found myself short of colored mana. I am therefore considering adding a 7th Fetchland to increase the probability to find my colored (read: red & white) manasources.

- Inconsistency issues: some draws just fold to a simple combination of StP + EE whitout applying any pressure.

- Because of my testing results so far I strongly recommend not to play with less then 17 lands. When keeping Cradle you should at least add an additonal fetchland.

GGoober
01-17-2009, 02:18 PM
I think 17 lands with 3 Heath, 3 Foothills, 3 Savannah, 2 Taiga (yes 2 since you only need it for Anger, but increasing the non-basic manabase screws you over to Wastelands + BtB) 1 Gaea's Cradle, 5 Forest has been close to optimal in my testing.

3 ESG is definitely the way to go. I dropped to 16 lands and 4 ESG and was having problem hitting the 2nd land on turn 2 consistently.

Wood Elves is a must. Not just to grab white for Entity, but if your board isn't threatening e.g. 2 Priest + mana elves + Symbiote + Wood elves, you can go on and bounce woodelves entapping priests to grab a ton of lands, thinning the deck a little. But yeah, grabbing that extra land is crucial since the combo requires a tight 3 mana to pull out infinite mana.

Di
01-17-2009, 05:34 PM
@ Atwa's decklist


I'd cut the Thornweald Archer for another Vanquisher. After a lot more testing, I came to the conclusion being able to block flying is near-irrelevant because if they have a Tombstalker in play they're either going to have to block or race, both of which puts them in a bad position. Vanquisher is absolutely HUGE in almost every single matchup due to him being an undercosted beater with an amazing ability attached. I've had him FoW'd a lot due to this.

Cutting a Taiga for a Forest is the right call here. Given you can find Taiga with Wood Elves, it's not an issue, and gives you better resistance against your own Magus of the Moon.

I'd try to stray away from 61 cards here but if you want to keep it the way it is that's fine. If you're going to cut anything though it'd be the Packmaster, but either way it's up to you.

Your sideboard is solid too, but I really strongly suggest 4 Krosan Grip. It's the most important board slot you have and given the matchups you'll bring it in you want to draw as many as possible.


@ Other comments

- Wood Elves has to stay. We've all talked about it before, glad everyone is in agreement here. I've had a couple games where I had something like turn 2 Priest followed by 1-2 Symbiote and Wood Elves on turn 3, and by turn 5 I pulled every land out of the deck. That is huge in turning your deck into having insanely strong draws the rest of the game and making Messenger 100x better.

- Wasteland is something I don't know if I'll end up running, because it would compete in the ESG slot, and in the process bump my land count up to around 18-19. I really like ESG in the deck, and it's way too hard to find room for both ESG and Wasteland without doing damage to the manabase. Ideally you could, but it'd cause consistency issues.

Atwa
01-18-2009, 02:43 PM
I went 1-3 drop in the tourney.

I was playing the list posted above except for:
-1 Taiga
-1 Thornweald Archer
+1 Forest
+1 Wren's Run Vanquisher

Round 1: WBGb Threshold??
Game 1:
I drop a few guys and went aggro, he dropped a Confidant with which he revealed a FoW and a Mystic Enforcer, GG.

Game 2:
I take a land with only Cradle as land and mulligan int a hand with no land, a ESG and 2 Fyndhorns. I decide to take the risk and keep it. The first Fyndhorn get's Dazed. I draw a land and the second one also get's Dazed. I never stabalize before the Goyfs come in.

Game 3:
I go aggro again and here the forestwalk proved itself, there was nothng he could do against 2 Champions and a Perfect.

Round 2: Aggro Loam
Game 1: I have a very decent start, but I overextend a little and the guy goes Burning Wish into Perish, clears my board and I die from Crusher beatdown.

Game 2: I land a turn 2 Absolute Law, which he didn't expect, and I managed to keep him off my back for a while, while attacking. But also here he get's Burning into Perish and that's game.

Round 3: Zoo
Game 1: He burns away my champions and beats down with Apes, Nactals and Goyfs, which is too much before I can stabilize.

Game 2: I went for the beatdown route again. Again this deck shines against people stupid enough to play their own forests.

Game 3: Very hard game. He got the quick start and had, 2 Apes and a Jotun Grunt in play on turn 3. He also had Bolted 2 Vanquisers in the same time. I landed a Survival and went for Anger and a Vanquisher, forgetting I needed to reveal an Elf, so I couldn't play it. I should instead just have went for the Magus instead, which would have saved me the game. His next plays were Jotun Grunt and 2 Goyfs. I tried to excape from that sitation by playing Messenger, but I revealed 4 fetchlands. I die.

Round 4: AtN
Game 1: I wasn't sure what he was playing, so I went aggro on him. Turn 3 I swing in for 10 damage and he shrugs. I should have expected what was comming, since he went off next turn.

Game 2: Turn 1 Forest, he went tundra ->go. During my upkeep Orim's Chant, so I couldn't play the Magus I mulliganed into and went of next turn.

After this I decide to drop and visit the dealer, where I spend the next 2 hours.

All in all I feel the deck is very decent. I just got unlucky with my matchups (AnT and Aggro Loam) and made a few mistakes myself, which against the Zoo player costed me the game.

georgjorge
01-18-2009, 04:16 PM
Aggro Loam having a Perish in the board (WTF ? More than half of its own creatures are green...) was also unlucky. But generally, I think the deck can sometimes run out of steam if it doesn't get Survival or good Messengers...which is why I'm currently testing three Talara's Battalion to support Vanquishers with the beatdown. I'll let you know how it goes.

Aggro_zombies
01-18-2009, 06:18 PM
Aggro Loam having a Perish in the board (WTF ? More than half of its own creatures are green...) was also unlucky. But generally, I think the deck can sometimes run out of steam if it doesn't get Survival or good Messengers...which is why I'm currently testing three Talara's Battalion to support Vanquishers with the beatdown. I'll let you know how it goes.
What about Banefire, from Conflux? You've got access to red, and given the amount of mana you run, X should always be greater than five. Hitting your opponent with an uncounterable Fireball if you stall seems like a good play.

The downside, obviously, is that it's not an Elf. Sideboard, maybe?

adrieng
01-20-2009, 03:54 PM
I really think we should play 4 natural order and 1 progenitus(10/10 protection against all) in sb.
It helps the aggro-loam matchup a lot and should win the game on his own which has been a problem for me. It is also good against red threshold which packs clasme in sb, and which is quite hard.
I have given up for the combo matchup, even with 8 cards in sb you still have a bad matchup. With eight cards in sb you can bet to win one game but not 2 out of three. ADN is much harder than ichorid or belcher to disrupt.
I have been testing the deck with timberwatch elf and without the white splash and like it a lot. The deck can still kill turn 3 and a lot of turn 4 kill. I don't think the combo is needed. I don't play neither wirewood symbiote cause I want to play only elfes in the deck and I hate revealing them with messenger. I am for the moment trying 2 tribal forcemage and 2 boreal druid. I have found that the deck ALWAYS wants a turn one elf and I don't want to mulligan cause I haven't got it.

georgjorge
01-20-2009, 04:11 PM
I'm playing a Boreal as well, but I think using just two slots for Symbiote and Ranger, who can do useful stuff on their own, is worth the ability to combo out and kill the opponent in one swoop (and I haven't done it without any of those two so far).

Regarding Timberwatch: Is it better than a Lord, considering it adds the same total amount of power to your board but can't be used the turn it comes into play ? Or do you play eight Lords plus the Timberwatches ? It's true that the deck can have problems punching through big creatures though...

adrieng
01-20-2009, 04:19 PM
He is sometimes better than lord. I am playing 3 ranger which have are really good with timberwatch and imperious perfect(2 token a turn). Just think you have four-five elf with a quirion ranger and a timberwatch you are sure to make 8-10 damage only with timberwatch (untap effect of quirion ranger). I play 8 lords + 4 timberwatch yes. Timberwatch is my main kill. I can't see playing the deck without it.

Mystic
01-20-2009, 06:10 PM
Hey Di,

I have been playing survival for over a year now and after reading all the survival threads on here you seem like the expert on the deck. I recently played your 4 color list with swords and Bob and loved it, I really like the fact that you could win with the deck without even drawing survival. So thinking that I would have a similar feeling about your new list I put it together, and so far I love this list as well. I just have a few questions about side boarding.

For Reference here is my current list and board:

4 Survival of the Fittest
1 Anger
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Priest of Titania
4 Elvish Champion
4 Imperious Perfect
3 Wren's Run Vanquisher
4 Sylvan Messenger
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Wood Elves
2 Quirion Ranger
3 Wirewood Symbiote
2 Mirror Entity

20 Land
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
3 Savannah
5 Forest
3 Wasteland

On the main board I do not think I would change a card, everything has been useful one time or another. Vanquisher seems like the weakest slot, In testing the only thing I want is a graveyard recursion ability. I plan on testing -1 Vanquisher +1 Genesis.

Current side board
3 Krosan Grip
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Magus of the Moon
2 Choke
3 Absolute Law
1 Caller of the claw

If you could give me an idea on side boarding in the key matchups that would be great.

Thanks Mystic

GGoober
01-21-2009, 12:09 AM
GUYS!

For those who are iffy with Absolute Law for protecting against Pyroclasm, Bolts, Devastating Dreams, we got a new goodie from MTGS spoiler for CONFLUX

Mark of Asylum 1W
Enchantment
Prevent all noncombat damage that would be dealt to creatures you control.


This is good stuff. We're out of burn's reach finally and the Aggro Loam matchup should be easy. Also, no more getting pissed with Symbiote being bolted :D

Waikiki
01-21-2009, 04:19 AM
So from what does it protect other then the things absolute law allready protects us from?

GGoober
01-21-2009, 04:38 AM
Lol good point. I guess absolute law is better since you can block crushers, gobs.

I guess you can prevent damage from Pestilence/Crypt Rats? XD

Xenos
01-21-2009, 04:38 PM
Yes Timberwatch Elf is better than Mirror. A simple R/G version is sturdier and doesn't need wood elves.

Plus Timberwatch is always my main threat. Whenever it hits the board my opponent tries everything to get rid of it. It's an absolute beast. Mirror is more clunky and mana expensive to function. Timberwatch is much more smoother and consistant. It does more than a Lord usually. What I found is that this deck doesn't rely on "mass attacks" Rather, It needs to focus all the power on specific targets for maximum success. When your elves get pumped by Lords alot of times you don't even use that bonus to attack becuase the elves are still too small and simply not worth being lost, or it is already being tapped for other abilities. So alot of the power generated by the lords gets wasted. Timberwatch on the other hand, can focus all the power on an unblocked creature or spread to power to where it is relevant.


On the other hand, Timberwatch can get weak on it's own when your deck is out of gas. But then again so do the Lords and Mirrors. I still prefere it over mirror though.

p.s if you're running timberwatch 4 Quirion Ranger is a must. simply too good. and helps the fragile manabase too.

GGoober
01-21-2009, 11:55 PM
I disagree Xenos.

For the same Mana cost, Mirror Entity does so much more than Timberwatch:
It acts as lord 9-10 and pumps everything. Things get a little insane if you have a priest. Timberwatch would be amazing if it gave trample, but it doesn't. For the same manacost, Timberwatch only pumps one creature, and requires Symbiote/Ranger to pull of higher pumps. It's probably only useful with Messenger (trample). No one will leave a pumped elf unblocked if it didn't have trample with Timberwatch in play.

But more crucially, Mirror Entity has insane synergy with Priest and Symbiote. I've won without Survival just with Symbiote, Priest out and swinging for a good 6/6 with 4 elves. With Survival, you win. Without Priest/Symbiote, it still acts as a solid beater, and is much better in topdeck mode with an empty board than Timberwatch is. Timberwatch is very situational to the number of elves in play. Whereas Mirror gets more bonus if you have more creatures and more acceleration, it's not needed. It can sometimes swing as a 6/6 all by itself.

GR is a more stable shell, but I rather play GRW since post sideboard, we have access to cards like Gaddock Teeg, Orim's Chant and many more anti-clasm cards (e.g. Absolute law)

Xenos
01-22-2009, 01:56 AM
I disagree Xenos.

For the same Mana cost, Mirror Entity does so much more than Timberwatch:
It acts as lord 9-10 and pumps everything. Things get a little insane if you have a priest. Timberwatch would be amazing if it gave trample, but it doesn't. For the same manacost, Timberwatch only pumps one creature, and requires Symbiote/Ranger to pull of higher pumps. It's probably only useful with Messenger (trample). No one will leave a pumped elf unblocked if it didn't have trample with Timberwatch in play.

But more crucially, Mirror Entity has insane synergy with Priest and Symbiote. I've won without Survival just with Symbiote, Priest out and swinging for a good 6/6 with 4 elves. With Survival, you win. Without Priest/Symbiote, it still acts as a solid beater, and is much better in topdeck mode with an empty board than Timberwatch is. Timberwatch is very situational to the number of elves in play. Whereas Mirror gets more bonus if you have more creatures and more acceleration, it's not needed. It can sometimes swing as a 6/6 all by itself.

GR is a more stable shell, but I rather play GRW since post sideboard, we have access to cards like Gaddock Teeg, Orim's Chant and many more anti-clasm cards (e.g. Absolute law)

It comes down to this:

2 Mirror Entity + 1 Wood Elves + Savannah


or

4 Timberwatch Elf

Playing Mirror comes with a luggage of weak cards.

Playing Timberwatch comes with potential of not doing much by itself.



I've tested both, both have pros and cons. You've already explained Mirror Entity for the most part; I'm just gonna talk about Timberwatch:


Timberwatch looks alot worse on paper than it does in practice. Lords don't do much on their own either, and Timberwatch is basically a Lord. I still believe the deck does better by focusing its power on specific targets rather than spreading it around to every creature. Heck, I might sound crazy, but I think Jagged-Scar Archers would even be better than Elvish Champion if not for its Forestwalk that is so essential.


Of course, you don't pump before blockers are declared, that's would be a mistake. That's the key thing that makes Timberwatch strong, it's difficult to block your elves with the versatility of pumping any one of them according to how they're blocked.

Random example.

lets say you have 3 elves and a lord. vs a 4/4 defender if you attack you will probably lose an elf and do some damage. but with timberwatch, he would be foolish to block. And he ends up eating all the damage instead while you lose nothing at all compared to using a normal Lord. This is typically what happens when I have a timberwatch.

If he has mulitple defenders such as a goblin deck, then you might reach a stalemate with a normal Lord, happens often. But with timberwatch, you can always attack with at least 1 creature no matter what because if he chooses to block ,he is guarenteed to lose more than you would. so they usually dont block, and the timberewatch gets all the damage through whereas a normal lord's pump couldn't without losing more material.

Just a random example to illustrate how it functions. this is why I believe spreading the pump around with normal lords is weaker than focusing the power on speciific targets, ala Timberwatch. It doesn't need messenger. On it's own it's weak, thats the bad point about it, though I still believe it is better than Elvish Champion as a Lord, which also does close to nothing on its own. if there's no forestwalk, that is.


My main problem with Mirror is the white splash, there must be equally good sideboard options provided in G/R, it just needs to be discovered. I get color screwed often enough that I prefere not using Mirror Entity at all.

Lcpdenijs
01-22-2009, 06:54 AM
I like the discussion on this deck.
Seems like we got 2 versions of this deck.
The one with Mirror Entity (white splash) and the one with the Timberwatch Elves.
Could you post a decklist of the one with the Timberwatch Elves?

Atwa
01-22-2009, 10:44 AM
I would never and I really mean never cut white in this deck. You can debate about the use of Mirror Entity or Timberwatch Elf, but still even if I was to play without white maindeck, I'd still consider Savannah's for the sideboard options.

In G/R, you have absolutely no sideboard options against Combo (to supplement Thorn). The only thing decent is Pyrostatic Pillar and that kills us even faster than it kills combo.

Even if you want to let go off the lost cause which combo is (which I have seen several people do), there is no replacement for the gamesaver called Absolute Law. That card would have won me the game last weekend against Aggro Loam if only the guy didn't pack Perish in his side along with Burning Tutor (I know, wtf. But the common logic of him having half his win conditions in green didn't stop him from playing it).

Also against Burn, Goblins and Goyf Slight this is a card you really want to play.

adrieng
01-22-2009, 11:08 AM
here is the list I am testing :

4 fyndhron
4 llanowar
2 boreal druid
4 priest
3 quirion ranger
8 lords
4 timberwatch elf
4 messenger
3 tribal forcemage (testing)
1 zealot
1 squee
1 anger
4 survival

11 forest
4 wooded
2 taiga


Sideboard :


4 natural order (aggro loam, all decks with red but gob)
1 progenitus
10 others cards

You don't need white to have an answer to combo, you have trinisphere (you can play it turn 2 with 10 elves), null rod and chalice of the void, thorn of amethyst which are very good.

Atwa
01-22-2009, 11:13 AM
You don't need white to have an answer to combo, you have trinisphere (you can play it turn 2 with 10 elves), null rod and chalice of the void, thorn of amethyst which are very good.

I would like to ask what your main strategy against Aggro Loam, Goyf Slight and Burn are.

adrieng
01-22-2009, 11:34 AM
Aggro loam is really hard game one, try to race them it happens, and don't forget to return a land with quirion ranger after DD. After side natural order => progenitus =gg.
You can race burn usually the winner is the one who starts. The deck can kill turn 3 and lots of turn four kills. If you really fear them play one wellwisher in sb gaining 4+ life is usually enough. Against goyf sligh they usually have to burn your creatures, and you are faster or as fast as them, you don't fear anymore PoP(no white splash). The problematic card is grim lavamancer which can be a pain but if you have a timberwatch elf active you don't fear anymore their removals.

Atwa
01-22-2009, 11:47 AM
Any competent Burn or Goyf Slight player (or one who knows the matchup) knows he has to burn away the early mana-elves. In which case you won't be faster than them, you will actually lose so much speed you won't be able to restabilize fast enough to defend the fast beats which usually folow.

Wellwishers won't help against that, they make up actually very nice additional targets after they've killed your mana elves, if they are even worth the effort with you having an empty board.

I haven't tested Natural Order yet, but I can't imagine it improves the matchups enough to drop cards like Absolute Law and Gaddock Teeg (against Fireblast). And even if it improves it enough so the matchup will be 50-50, you will still have lost game 1, making the rest of the match a total gamble.

Di
01-22-2009, 12:20 PM
Wow, I have a lot of stuff to respond to.

@ Arguments for Timberwatch Elf.

I've gotten in a couple heated discussions with this over the past few days. It's making me want to rip my hair out. The arguments for Timberwatch Elf are really weak compared to the alleged disadvantages of running Mirror Entity.

For starters, compare them both on their own. Mirror Entity is the strongest card in the deck by itself, although that could be debated with Imperious Perfect. But still, Entity will always push you ahead in an aggro matchup. It is an enormous threat on its own because it turns all available mana you have, which will always be a lot, into an issue for the opponent. It makes all your guys huge, not a single one. Take for instance you have 3 lands in play, Mirror Entity, and 3 Llanowar Elves (or Fyndhorns, whatever). You can attack with all creatures and pump them to 3/3 for 12 damage, or make them 4/4 and attack for 12, or maybe 5/5 and attack for 10. If that was Timberwatch Elf, you could either attack with 3 1/1 creatures and pump a single one to make it a 5/5, or pass the turn because your team is entirely weak. If you have Priest of Titania in play, then the point obviously goes to Mirror Entity.

The only possible occasions where Timberwatch Elf is superior is if you have have very little mana to use and a plethora of creatures in play, which is incredibly unlikely given that over half the deck is mana production, and that you also have a Quirion Ranger in play. Otherwise, there isn't anything beneficial about it. Timberwatch makes a single creature a threat, or Mirror Entity makes all your creatures threats. The fact that is requires white mana isn't a reasonable consequence at all; you run fetchlands and will almost always have access to white mana. Besides, white should be in the deck regardless for sideboarding purposes. If you want to completely pack it to combo that's fine, but there is no better alternative than Absolute Law outside white except maybe Bubble Matrix, but that's another argument. Fact is, Mirror Entity turns a weak team into a strong team, and Timberwatch will keep a team weak unless you have a Quirion Ranger or something to complement it. It is weak when you're in topdeck mode or are facing a post-Wog/Clasm situation, and the fact that it can't be used immediately is a serious problem. Entity activates the turn it comes into play. How many situations have you guys been in that had something along the lines of turn 1 Elf, turn 2 Priest + Ranger, turn 3 Entity, add lots of mana, swing for like 10? It is more consistent that Timberwatch Elf, offers more speed, and allows you to push through much easier in other aggro matchups.

Plus, trying to defend Timberwatch in the place of a lord is awful. Lords are not there solely for pumping, they have other uses. Forestwalk is powerful in 75% of the matchups you play. I win a ton of matchups to that alone. And Imperious Perfect's token generating ability is absolutely critical in aggro and control matchups. They also offer protection against Engineered Plague and potential protection against Pyroclasm and such if you're able to get multiples in play. Timberwatch Elf offers nothing against hate nor does it have any value beyond that of any of the other creatures in question.


Playing Mirror comes with a luggage of weak cards.

What?

It comes with....Savannah, a land that is already going to be in the deck for sideboard purposes, and Wirewood Symbiote. Every single Elves list has run Wirewood Symbiote whether it ran Mirror Entity or not. Wirewood Symbiote is weak, true, but it offers amazing utility beyond Mirror Entity. It is mana acceleration, protection from removal, and allows Messenger recursion. It would be in the deck if I wasn't running Mirror Entity either way.


I haven't tested Natural Order yet, but I can't imagine it improves the matchups enough to drop cards like Absolute Law and Gaddock Teeg (against Fireblast). And even if it improves it enough so the matchup will be 50-50, you will still have lost game 1.

Don't dismiss Natural Order -> Progenitus just yet. I've been testing it out in here and have had amazing results. Not as a sideboard option, but as a maindeck card. It gives the deck even more flexibility, and outside Wrath of God or a combo deck killing you, there aren't like any outs for other decks to deal with it. It is this format's version of Tinker -> Colossus, and it fits perfectly into this shell. It's only the matter of figuring out what to cut for it. It's ironic I just got into that tirade above, because in all likelyhood the Entity aspect of the deck would be cut to make room for the 5 slots necessary. I don't know, it's kind of difficult, so a lot of testing will tell. But realize that it is a huge thing for green decks to get this, so it's seriously worth looking at.

Xenos
01-22-2009, 03:23 PM
While I don't necessarily dispute Mirror's technical superiority when comparing it card-to-card with Timberwatch, I probably should have made it more clear it is my desire to cut white completely from the deck that leads me to my decisions. It DOES make the deck a heck lot more inconsistant, sure, you can run Wood Elves, but that's another weak card. it is not as though Mirror is just strickly better than Timberwatch. I always get wastelanded and stifled to 'bolivion. The games I lose are often the games where I'm mana screwed, by far. not by whether or not I have timberwatch/mirror. And that's the weakness of this deck: the fragile mana-base. Quirion Ranger has probably won me more games than I realise. I am in favor of solidifying the manabase above all else, and I feel adding a 3rd color just weakens that already frail manabase. The games I win with Mirror comes with games I lose to color/mana screw. Then again, games I win with strong manabase comes with games I lose with solo-timberwatch. Though I am not convinced either build is significantly better than the other, I still prefere R/G for the stable manabase. Sideboard can start with something like this:

4 Krosan Grip
4 Thorn of Amethyest
? Caller of the Claw?

Red is another huge weakness of this deck, and Absolute Law is just the perfect answer, I know. That is the only justification for running white. The combo hate aspect from white is unnecessary, it doesn't really give you that much of an edge when I've tried. I'd rather just give up odds and race them and save sideboard for something else. There must be a good sideboard options for R/G, I'm not convinced that white is the only option. I'm just too lazy to do the research but I'm sure someone else can.




Progenitus is an interesting card. It would in fact be too soon to overlook it. This just might be the answer for all that Red hate we've been looking for. Should be tested anyways.

georgjorge
01-24-2009, 10:12 AM
Since Thornweald Archer was discussed as an answer to 'Stalker, maybe


Intrepid Hero 2W
Creature - Human Soldier

Tap: Destroy target creature
with power 4 or greater.

would fit in, which I think is superior to Archer. NOT an Elf, but doesn't matter that much as long as you stay above 32-33 Elves for Messenger. Hasted with Anger, and better on the offensive when it clears out annoying blockers. The deck doesn't have any removal otherwise, and dealing with 'Noughts (trampling over Archer) or defending Goyfs/'Stalkers can be annoying.

Eatatjoes
01-24-2009, 11:33 AM
Since Thornweald Archer was discussed as an answer to 'Stalker, maybe


Intrepid Hero 2W
Creature - Human Soldier

Tap: Destroy target creature
with power 4 or greater.

would fit in, which I think is superior to Archer. NOT an Elf, but doesn't matter that much as long as you stay above 32-33 Elves for Messenger. Hasted with Anger, and better on the offensive when it clears out annoying blockers. The deck doesn't have any removal otherwise, and dealing with 'Noughts (trampling over Archer) or defending Goyfs/'Stalkers can be annoying.

The underlined part on your post explains why he wouldnt be played, he just seems janky and narrow, most elves list recenty have dropped thornweild archer completely, and replaced him with a 3rd vanquisher. If your worried about nought, play a viridian shaman, if there are alot of flyers in your meta, just stick with thornweild archer.

georgjorge
01-24-2009, 12:44 PM
If your worried about nought, play a viridian shaman, if there are alot of flyers in your meta, just stick with thornweild archer.

...if you're worried about BOTH, and want to kill 'Goyfs and 'Vores while you're at it, play Intrepid Hero :smile: .

I also don't get why not being an Elf automatically makes a card - as a 1-of to be tutored for with Survival - unplayable. We also play Magus of the Moon as a 1-of. Not getting pumped by Lords isn't that imporant for an utility card, so the only worry is Messenger.

Curby
01-25-2009, 11:48 AM
Maybe in the side then? The main consistency argument against it is that sure it's just one card, but we've already got several other critters that aren't elves. The bigger that non-elf stack gets, the worse a lot of our effects get.

troopatroop
01-25-2009, 10:16 PM
Besides, Intrepid Hero is a terrible card. 2W for a 1/1 that isn't an elf, in this deck, is bad. That card would be so dead in many matchups. At least Thornweald Archer is a decent creature in it's own right, and deals with Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker just as well.

EDIT: Have you tried using Vexing Shusher as a 1of post board? It's only really strong use is to answer Counter-Top with a Survival on the board, but a solid card in alot of matchups nonetheless. Could always be just another Choke, or Harmonic Sliver or something. Wasted slot? What are your thoughts on Chameleon Collossus? It would just feel satisfying to run into that random black deck at a turnament, and have a very strong bomb to tutor for early.

JohnnyCage
01-26-2009, 01:53 AM
So di, how do you feel about boarding such against dreadstill, taking out survivals to bring in grips. I have been testing and have liked running seven lords and 3 vanquishers, it gives us a better early timewalks against goyf and also the merfolk that seem to be rising in popularity...Vanquisher has just been too good and i haven't missed the lord spot at all.

Also, after boarding out survivals against red blue dreadstill, i found his fisrt turn play was needle on survival, it won me the game because he wasted it.

Radiant
01-26-2009, 09:39 AM
I just read through the whole thread and afterwards searched my cardpiles for Elf-cards.
There I found a little guy called Elvish Harbinger (http://magiccards.info/evg/en/7.html). Isn't it equal / slighty better than the Wood Elves everyone seems to hate?
Pro:
+) He generates mana of every color
+) He puts the Elf you want on top, even without Survival.
Con:
-) You don't get a land for further permanent use. (but opponents should have enough better targets for removal-spells)

Just a random thought, but I would like to hear your opinions about this.

Waikiki
01-26-2009, 09:47 AM
It does not make your elves angry.

Radiant
01-26-2009, 09:49 AM
It does not make your elves angry.

You should have enough fetchies to get hold of a Taiga, but you have a point here.

JohnnyCage
01-26-2009, 10:00 AM
I just read through the whole thread and afterwards searched my cardpiles for Elf-cards.
There I found a little guy called Elvish Harbinger (http://magiccards.info/evg/en/7.html). Isn't it equal / slighty better than the Wood Elves everyone seems to hate?
Pro:
+) He generates mana of every color
+) He puts the Elf you want on top, even without Survival.
Con:
-) You don't get a land for further permanent use. (but opponents should have enough better targets for removal-spells)

Just a random thought, but I would like to hear your opinions about this.

And test the deck and you will see the wood elves shinannigans.

Lcpdenijs
01-26-2009, 10:32 AM
Interesting creature this Elvish Harbringer.
Downpoint is that this Elf doenst filter your deck of one land.
Also you cant always use it right away if you don't have Anger in your graveyard.

You could use this Elf instead of 4x the Llanowar or Fyndhorn, so you have the ability to cast every color of mana you need, its a slightly tougher elf (2 instead of 1) and you can manipulate your draws.
Sounds interesting.

Another point I would like to bring up is how bringing back Glimpse of Nature would help this deck or not.

GGoober
02-02-2009, 01:05 PM
Glimpse is a terrible card IMO. Long before I read this thread and learned there was such a thing as Elf Survival, when I was playing my own version of Survival + Glimpse Elf engine, Glimpse was easily the worst card. It relied on resolving 3 cards to go off, and even then it was not consistent, not to mention the deck is dead if either piece of the combo is missing. I can understand how it's good in Glimpse elves (which IMO is a much inferior Elf deck compared to EPIC Elf Survival), but in our deck, we have no way to continually cast creatures without untapping Priest, and there's a limit to that with Symbiote.


Di! Any idea on possible deck progress? The list on starcitygames seems to be really tight and optimized. I've been considering on dropping to 16 lands and upping the ESG to 4 copies for help against storm-based combo with turn 1 Thorn.

My current sideboard is:
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Choke
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Absolute Law
2 Krosan Grip
2 Chalice of the Void

I think the deck's main loss is against Aggro Loam and combo. I tried Chalice against combo. 2 in the SB has been good, although I might be interested in running 3 Chalice, 3 Thorn. I would board out 1-2 mana elves, 2 quirion ranger and some elves against combo and hope to Chalice/Thorn turn 1 with mulligans. That is why I'm asking if running 16 lands and 4 ESG destabilizes the mana-base. It has been less optimal but it should improve the combo matchup by a lot.

And as much as we're dismissing Intrepid Hero, he really does do everything against huge creatures. He has the same weakness that the deck doesn't want though, i.e. dies to everything and isn't an elf.

adrieng
02-02-2009, 01:50 PM
I have been testing 3 natural order and 1 progenitus maindeck. I have found it to be very good. Lots of decks scoop to it. Though I don't know if it improves our bad matchup, but it should improve aggro-loam and others decks packing firespout or deed. It is a four card Oups-I-win against all the aggro control decks and it is counterbalance proof. I am trying to find a way to beat goyf-sligh without the white splash. Has anyone an idea ? There is
harmony of nature (2G tap one green creature gain 4 life) which may be good but I haven't tested it yet.

Xero
02-02-2009, 02:33 PM
Wouldn't Wellwisher be better if you wanted to gain lots of life?

Eatatjoes
02-03-2009, 04:13 AM
Just so im up to date, so this build has dropped squee altogether? Also, has wizards changed the errata on ESG, does it count as an elf? Other then that, i am liking the recent builds, they are real fun to play, and pretty competitive

GGoober
02-04-2009, 12:02 PM
Squee is easily the weakest card in the deck. The deck doesn't need CA as the traditional Survival lists do. The CA in the deck comes from resolving Messenger, not Squee. Squee takes so many turns to set up and abuse, and is fitted more in a controllish/comboish Survival build. This deck is a more aggro focused build. Squee is too slow for it, and doesn't synergize with the tribal, and more importantly, doesn't synergize with the needs and goals of the deck.

ESG is a spirit Elf, which is why we're in discussion whether to play 3-4 copies since flipping ESG after Messenger is much better than flipping lands.

diffy
02-04-2009, 01:12 PM
Squee is easily the weakest card in the deck. The deck doesn't need CA as the traditional Survival lists do. The CA in the deck comes from resolving Messenger, not Squee. Squee takes so many turns to set up and abuse, and is fitted more in a controllish/comboish Survival build. This deck is a more aggro focused build. Squee is too slow for it, and doesn't synergize with the tribal, and more importantly, doesn't synergize with the needs and goals of the deck.

I disagree: spending one additional green mana to get Squee out of your library is much less clunky than having to chain Messengers or than eventually running out of gas.
When playing this deck, you can distinguish between two main situations, regarding Survival:
Either you drop some mana-elves early, drop some beaters and only then draw into Survival. At this point, you're usually somewhat low on cards in hand, especially on creatures, since you deployed them all to the board in order to be able to go aggro (and maintain said aggressiveness in the face of removal, blockers, and disruption). If you don't play Squee, you now have to waste your first turn or two (depending on how many lands and/or Priest of Titanias you have in play), after drawing and playing Survival, in order to get a Sylvan Messenger - otherwise Survival would be no good as it would be no more than an overpriced Eladamri's Call (which is only good on rather rare occasions). After resolving Messenger, you'll again have to waste some mana around 2 turns later, as you deployed the creatures you got out of it to the board, or ditched them to Survival - once again, you loose tempo. Compare this to just getting out Squee on your first turn and starting to drop some additional fat right away, and being able to conte to do so afterwards, without any further investment - it is just plainly better because it's less mana intensive (compare the one-time investment of G to the repeated investment of 3G) and gives your opponent less leeway to disrupt you.
The other possible situation is you having Survival in your opening seven. In this case, you're going to drop a mana-elf on your first and Survival on your second turn. At this point, spending one mana to fetch a Squee doesn't make any difference as you're going to spend a full turn to set up Survival (i.e. fetch Anger and Priest of Titanias or Rofellos + Quirion Ranger) anyway: the one mana doesn't make any difference but allows you to play more aggressively later due to, once again, not having to fetch expensive Messengers to sustain Survival.

In synthesis, the Card Advantage of Squee is a mere benefit: it's the fact that playing Squee lets you play more aggressively (as in "playing without wasting tempo every so many turns") that makes playing him superior to not playing him.
The fact that he's not an Elf is irrelevant as you're still going to have around 30 elves in your deck which means that your Messengers are still better than the oh so feared Goblin Ringleaders - the one game out of a dozen you get one card less out of your Messenger is irrelevant if compared to aforementioned drawbacks of not playing Squee.
Also, with Squee, you make sure to never run out of gas with Survival on the board whereas in a Messenger-only-build, counters and random stuff like land destruction, removal on your mana-elfes or Humility will be able to disrupt your active Survival, giving the opponent free outs to an otherwise game-breaking enchantment.
Also, hardcasting Squee is not half a bad move... especially since Elf-Survival has a nasty tendency of not having many outs to tall guys anyway.


Wouldn't Wellwisher be better if you wanted to gain lots of life?

The probability of Wellwisher surviving against a deck with 12+ Burnspells and postboard access to Pyroclasm is close to non-existent - and even if it does survive one turn, it won't be that great due to you always being low on creatures against Goyf Sligh: if your opponent knows what he's doing, he's directing all of his burn onto your guys, killing your mana-elves (especially Priest of Titania) and your blockers like mad, and just relying on creatures to deal damage - this way he slows down your development (you're pretty much dependant on mana-elves) which buys his creatures more time to swing in and therewith makes up for the loss of reach his burn would otherwise provide.


I have been testing 3 natural order and 1 progenitus maindeck. I have found it to be very good. Lots of decks scoop to it. Though I don't know if it improves our bad matchup, but it should improve aggro-loam and others decks packing firespout or deed. It is a four card Oups-I-win against all the aggro control decks and it is counterbalance proof.

Natural Order + Progenitus, does, in fact, make a good addition to the deck - it's not about being good against hate or anything: it is good because it adds more power to the deck. This is important because otherwise you're dependent on Survival and Messenger to win games (it's not like playing fair with mediocre beaters and some random synergy wins any games against anything)... and 8 cards are not exactly something you have reliably in a deck with no draw.
Do play 4 Natural Orders, though - they're just that solid (as in 'unrestricted Tinker-Colossus' solid).

Teumie
02-18-2009, 09:40 AM
On Squee; on thougher match ups i miss squee ... Especially if the opponent can stall you enough and get rid of your early critters, i find myself relying often on my topdeck (hoping it will be a messenger) ... therefor, I'm considering to put squee in (not sure what will go out, but I am not super impressed with the vanquishers).
On natural order/progenitus: this looks nice, but what do you cut from your deck then? I'm just afraid that it will alter the deck too much ...

Would it be standard to include a gaea's blessing in side? Because in my experience the painter matchup is bad ...

Thanks for any comments ;-)

Esper3k
02-18-2009, 03:22 PM
On Squee; on thougher match ups i miss squee ... Especially if the opponent can stall you enough and get rid of your early critters, i find myself relying often on my topdeck (hoping it will be a messenger) ... therefor, I'm considering to put squee in (not sure what will go out, but I am not super impressed with the vanquishers).
On natural order/progenitus: this looks nice, but what do you cut from your deck then? I'm just afraid that it will alter the deck too much ...

Would it be standard to include a gaea's blessing in side? Because in my experience the painter matchup is bad ...

Thanks for any comments ;-)

From my experience, so far I haven't really needed Squee (I've mostly been playing against monored Goblins, Imperial Painter, Fetchland Tendrils these days).

Typically, I've actually found the Messengers to be not as useful in general since I'm usually trying to combo out and I'm pitching them to get my combo pieces together.

Which Painter matchup are you talking about, Teumie? I've played against Imperial Painter quite a bit and haven't found the matchup to be too terrible (they can sometimes randomly win against you, but you tend to be more consistant and post-board, you have a lot of nastiness you can bring in).

Vanquishers have been hit or miss for me. They're amazing when you're trying to aggro out on someone since they'll beat up smaller guys like Bobs and Goblins. They'll also trade with Goyfs as well, which is a huge bonus. Other times I've had them in hand and just pitched them to Survival to try and combo out, so I can't really say I've ever been disappointed to see one.

Teumie
02-19-2009, 10:44 AM
on Squee: i missed him during a particular matchup against survival/rock. after you run out of your first creatures and he can delay you enough, I found myself in top deck mode ... I haven't played with a squee yet, so I'm only guessing that it would help me, especially since later in the game, one extra green mana is not gonna make the difference ...

on that painter matchup: it was terrible in that sense that he was more consistent than me (once he had his painter +grindstone + 3mana, it was game).Especially since he knew what to counter in my deck, which resulted in me not really being able to go off ...

on the vanquishers: sometimes they are just great, but in most cases (i.E. gobo's, bobs and goyf) i like a lord more (especially with forest walk) to just go aggro. It is a great creature, but the deathtouch ability is only useful in a few matchups imo.

I also found it very difficult (to almost impossible) to go off on turn three ... mostly it is 4 or 5 with me (unless I'm doing something wrong or forgetting something).

Esper3k
02-19-2009, 01:38 PM
I've found going off on T3 fairly rare as well.

Re Squee: I could see him being useful if you got stalled out, but I think if you got a Messenger, it'd work just as well (unless you get really unlucky). If you have a Symbiote out as well, the Messenger would probably be even better than Squee.

Re Painter: Against my friend's Imperial Painter, I've lost some games to Painter + Grindstone coming down. Sometimes it happens where they go T1: Grindstone, T2: Painter + Win. There's no Force or anything in this deck, so you really have no answer to that. However, especially post board when you can bring in Absolute Law and artifact hate, the matchup becomes a lot better for you (from my experience).

DrewliusMaximus
02-19-2009, 01:51 PM
Re Painter: Against my friend's Imperial Painter, I've lost some games to Painter + Grindstone coming down. Sometimes it happens where they go T1: Grindstone, T2: Painter + Win. There's no Force or anything in this deck, so you really have no answer to that. However, especially post board when you can bring in Absolute Law and artifact hate, the matchup becomes a lot better for you (from my experience).

I'm guessing Teumie is talking about EPIC Painter or maybe mono-blue based on the mention of countering. Imperial can counter with Blasts but it's usually more of a removal approach than with the other Painter builds. And against those builds, Absolute Law isn't relevant, but Grips certainly are.

I can vouch for the nastiness of Absolute Law against Imperial Painter though (I hate your Elves Esper3k).

Teumie
02-26-2009, 10:37 AM
I was indeed talking about a mono blue version of the painter deck, which is really annoying ...
Besides that I have a lot of fun with this deck whilst still winning.

Still two questions: If you want to include 3x natural order + 1 progenitus, what would you kick out?
On the sideboard: I am not very happy with the orim's chants ... i do like the 4 thorns ... anyone got any good experience with combo? In that case you would want to side in at least 8 cards (4 chant and 4 thorn) ... a bit overkill?
I was even considering to include one ESG in the sideboard as well as 4 thorns just to increase the chance to play thorn T1 ...

Esper3k
02-26-2009, 11:42 AM
For me, I haven't often found the need for the Sylvan Messengers as much.

I rarely Survival for them and if I have Survival out, I'll usually just pitch them for Survival since I'm trying to combo out anyways.

I've gotten the Messenger + Symbiote shenanigans going a few times and that's been great, but if I were to put in the Natural Order + Progenitus combo in there, I'd probably take out like some Messengers and ESG's (I'm running them as a 3 of right now).

What kind of Combo are you up against? Tendrils based combo, Gaddock Teeg is a bad bad man for them to fight against (they have to bounce or sweep him away before they can combo off).

Thorns, as everyone has mentioned, are really good as well. I don't have any Chants, but they seem like a good idea against certain combo decks, especially if you can throw it in the middle to disrupt their combo.

C.P.
02-26-2009, 03:41 PM
On the sideboard: I am not very happy with the orim's chants ... i do like the 4 thorns ... anyone got any good experience with combo? In that case you would want to side in at least 8 cards (4 chant and 4 thorn) ... a bit overkill?
I was even considering to include one ESG in the sideboard as well as 4 thorns just to increase the chance to play thorn T1 ...

I Once had 7 cards in the board, 4 chants and 3 thorns. It won me G2, but I always lose G3. I also tried Ethersworn Canonist and did not like it. My conclusion, after a while, was to throw way the matchup and save SB slot.

adrieng
02-26-2009, 05:24 PM
I had the same problem even with eight cards in sb, the deck loses to Ad nauseum. I prefer playing graveyard hate, ichorid is easier to hate and you you have a better chance with say 6(4 wheel of sun+1 tormod+1 relic) graveyards cards to beat ichorid.
I am now playing 4 goyf in the maindeck (no symbiote, no messenger, no wren's, natural order maindeck and timberwatch). The problem of the deck without goyf is that it looses badly to threshold splash red. With goyf+choke in sb this matchup becomes much easier. And you can go survival+goyf each turn.
So far I have found symbiote very weak. Why ?

- it doesn't make mana alone (so quirion ranger is better when you don't have mana and timberwatch does the same thing if you can't hardcast it cause a vanilla 1/1 won't make you win the game)

-it doesn't make you win the game when you have already mana elves
( something like timberwatch elf is better )

- it doesn't protect from removal they just need to kill him(something like timberwatch is better cause if they don't kill it they loose the game !!)

So he is just here for a combo which is very easy to disrupt.


I cut the messenger cause the count of elves is not important and I still play a one off regal force maindeck.
Regal force should be played as a survival target he is so good and you can go order=>regal if you have progenitus in hand.

The list I play :

8 lords
4 timberwatch
8 llanowar
4 priest
3 ranger
4 goyf
4 survival
4 natural order
1 anger
1 squee
1 regal force
1 progenitus

11 forest
4 wooded
2 taiga

side

4 choke
2 witness
3 grip
4 wheel
1 nishoba phantom
1 relic

Teumie
03-10-2009, 01:19 PM
2 Questions:
- Did anyone play this deck in Chicago and to what result?
- Did anyone play this deck in Mol (Belgium) and to what result?

I saw that in Chicago, Eva Green had 2 top 8 spots. In my testing, prior side, it is a 50/50 matchup and very dependent on his first turn hand disruption.

I'm still wondering how this deck is performing in tourneys, I really like the deck, but haven't had the chance to test it on a tourney. Also, is it now mainstream to include natural order and progenitus or is that for some other decks?

Thanks

nix
03-10-2009, 01:24 PM
i have no clue about higher level tournaments, but it has been doing pretty well at my local tournament, it went undefeated a few weeks ago, i heard it beat dredge pretty bad, and beat goblins. and i dont know about any other matches.
also, im not sure if this matters, but the tournament i go to is usually only around 20 people.

i dont think pregenitus is necessary, but it could be useful some games, but other games all the natural orders will just get in your way.

emidln
03-10-2009, 01:42 PM
I know at least thebirdman was playing it (although he scrubbed early day 1).

TheBirdMan
03-10-2009, 07:05 PM
I played this in Chi,

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Natural Order

1 Anger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Progenitus

4 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Priest of Titania
2 Quirion Ranger
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Elvish Champion
2 Wren's Run Vanquisher
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
2 Taiga
2 Savannah
6 Forest

Sideboard:
4 Krosan Grip
3 Choke
1 Empyrical Archangel
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Caller of the Claw

My final record was 4-3, I beat Dragon Stompy, Black/Green hypnotic spector hymn to tourach.dec, Dreadstill (Progenitus > Dreadnought) and I forgot :rolleyes:. I lost to Team America? with Confidants, Pinder with landstill and Goblins who got turn 2 siegegang both games.

Overall the deck played well. Prob needed to cut 1-2 fetches for land and/or add a land, b/c I seemed to be stuck on 2 land a lot. Progenitus when resolved was win. Drew order a few times where not wanted but not too often. Progenitus opening hand wasnt too sweet though i did get a survival down eventually.

Esper3k
03-10-2009, 08:57 PM
Did you find lack of Messengers a problem at all?

Did you miss having Absolute Law in the sideboard against the red sweepers? I know I've been glad to have it in pretty much ever matchup I've played against red decks.

TheBirdMan
03-10-2009, 09:38 PM
Messengers werent missed at all and I have never owned absolute law, but its probably really great.

Esper3k
03-10-2009, 10:10 PM
Yeah, once I finish my Natural Order playset and give the combo a try in the deck, I'm thinking most of the Messengers will be the first to go. I might keep one in there just in case, but I don't see myself playing more than 1.

MasterC
03-11-2009, 09:41 AM
Time for new input.

This Weekend I went 6-0-1 and made first place in our local tournament (20 Players) with the following list:

4 Windswept Heath
4 Taiga
10 Forest

4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus

4 Survival of the Fittest
1 Squee
1 Anger
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Rofellos Llanowar Emissary

4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Priest of Titania
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Wren's Run Vanquisher
3 Elvish Champion
4 Sylvan Messenger
2 Quirion Ranger

SB:
4 Krosan Grip
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Genesis
1 Magus of the Moon


R1 vs RGB Aggro Loam

G1 he thoughtseizes my Survival, I topdeck Natural Order and drop a few Elves (more than necessary, because I was afraid of Seismic Assault), unable to cast Natural Order this turn. He plays Ravens Crime with retrace, taking my 2 remaining Handcards including Natural Order :mad: . I topdeck Elvish Champion and hit him hard with forestwalk. He has a final turn before he's dead and topdecks Devastating Dreams, being able to discard additional 2 cards. A Crusher seals the Deal.

G2 + 3 I slow him down with Relic and resolve Natural Order. gg.

1:0, 2:1


R2 vs MUC
This matchup is a cakewalk.
He has ~10 Counters and I have 30 Must-Counters.
His additional Disruption (B2B, Propaganda) is completely useless.

G1 He counters 2 Natural Order and stalls with Shackles, but I crowd the table with pointed ears and smash him with one big attack.

G2 He seemingly kept a hand without disruption but a shackles. I grip the shackles and smack him with multiple lords.

2:0, 4:1


R3 vs Armageddon Stax

G1 He does massive damage to himself with 2 Ancient Tombs. I beat him down to zero with a Vanquisher the turn before he gets eaten up by a Smokestack.

G2 Stax does what it's supposed to do, he assembles Lockpieces, including Chalice 1&2, Trinisphere, and 2 Ghostly Prison. Occasionally he armageddons my lands away. But he also fails to find one of his two Exalted Angels and fails to finish me off in an endless seeming game, because I'm able to chumblock his Magus with Imperious Perfect Tokens.

3:0, 5:1


R4 vs Aggro/Combo Elves (different approach w. Timberwatch Elf, Concordant Crossroads and many One-Drops)

G1 I play like a Moron, having an active Survival and overwhelming troops I attack. He manages to survive the assault, and on his turn he has one more attacker than I can block, which he pumps to obscene dimensions via Timberwatch Elf and Quirion Ranger. (I would have won this Game if I simply would have survivaled for a elvish champion)

G2 I combo off with Survival (Priest of Titania is really sick in a Elf mirror Match)

G3 Time is called

3:0:1, 6:2


R5 vs Burn

G1 I resolve Turn 3 Natural Order. In her last turn she's able to shoot me down to 1 before Progenitus finishes her.

G2 I desperately drop Chalice 1 and manage to cast Natural Order Turn 5 or 6. She is horribly flooded and I win.

4:0:1, 8:2


Top 4 vs Elves (same as Swiss):

G1 I lose as I have a rather slow start and he has lots of little guys and drops a coat of arms. I lose.

G2 I combo off turn 3 with Survival

G3 he becomes a victim of his bizarre Manabase (6 Fetchlands, 2 Forest, 2 Cradle) as he mulls to 4 without seeing a single land.


Finals vs Merfolk (~12 year old boy, but he has a good list and seems experienced)

G1 I mulligan to 5, he has an active Vial, Counters and 3 Lords. I lose.

G2 I resolve Natural Order.

G3 He has dominant board position with 3 Lords and a wake thrasher. I have a few mana elves, a Vanquisher and a Survival. He makes a backbreaking mistake as he doesnt charge into my smaller guys (I already was on low life so I would have been forced to block). Instead I combo off the next turn.


Conclusions:

I would have lost against Aggro Loam and Burn without Natural Order, probably also against Merfolk. -> I don't want to miss it.

Squee is mandatory for me, because very often I needed a setup turn in which I dropped Survival and survivaled for Squee and Anger, before I went off the next turn. Without Squee you easily run out of creatures to survival away and get stuck in combo. Also it gives you massive lategame card advantage against control decks like Stax.

I would cut the Maindeck Zealot (I never used it) for a Packmaster

I would play a single Empyrial Archangel in SB, because Burn and Sligh are horrible Matchups, and Progenitus can easily come down too late to win.

I would split between Relic / Crypt / Wheel of Sun and Moon

I would play Thorn of Amethyst instead of Chalice (at the moment I don't own Thorns)

Maybe I would cut Genesis.

Teumie
03-11-2009, 11:55 AM
Thanks for the report.

A few questions on that list:

Since you are not playing the normal 'white combo', i was wondering how you combo out?
Do you find the rofello useful? I would dump him for an additional lord, since you normally have mana enough ...
For the rest this list looks more like an aggro elves than the initial elf survival (with the white in it to combo).

I indeed love thorn as a SB card in this deck, especially since you do not have access to white. However, it only gets really good when you can play it first turn (with ESG).

By cutting the wirewood symbiote, you indeed need a squee to get the card advantage up. I am still not sure whether to include squee in my version (the traditional one with white in it).

MasterC
03-11-2009, 12:19 PM
Since you are not playing the normal 'white combo', i was wondering how you combo out?


First I go Survival -> Squee -> Anger -> Quirion Ranger
Next Turn: Go for Priest -> make huge amount of mana, survival for Sylvan Messenger. Draw Elves. Survival the small mana Elves away for Lords / Priests / Messengers. Repeat this process. Then run over your Opponent with 6-8 4/4 or bigger Elves. This works pretty good.



Do you find the rofello useful? I would dump him for an additional lord, since you normally have mana enough ...


Rofellos is useful when your board has been cleared from elves in Mid- or Lategame but you have an active Survival. By then, Priest would give you 1 Mana, while Rofellos might produce 4-5. So you can start comboing without another elf on your board.

Di
03-11-2009, 06:27 PM
This is a bit overdue, but better late than never. I opted to refrain from publicly discussing the deck until after Chicago, but seeing how that's over it's fine to continue our discussion. Birdman's list is heavily influenced from my latest list but I made several changes last minute. Anyway, this is what I played in Chicago:

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Natural Order
1 Anger
1 Progenitus
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
3 Tarmogoyf

4 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Priest of Titania
2 Quirion Ranger
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Elvish Champion
2 Wren's Run Vanquisher
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
1 Viridian Zealot

4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
3 Savannah
6 Forest

Sideboard:
4 Krosan Grip
3 Choke
1 Caller of the Claw
2 Absolute Law
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Cannonist


I ended up going 6-3, losing in round 9 to knock me out of day2. Overall, I was incredibly pleased with it. The maindeck was solid, being very consistent and powerful. The sideboard could've used slight tweaking, but it still did well. Just some explanations for the deck a bit, then I'll get into a quick report.

Maindeck Additions:

- Natural Order: This was obvious. It's one of the strongest combos in the format, and happened to fit into the deck perfectly being full of creatures and green. I wouldn't have done nearly as well without Progenitus, that's for sure. It's just ridiculous.

- Tarmogoyf: I was having too much trouble with Pyroclasm sweepers, the issue of making individual threats, and playing defense. Being tribal, most creatures are rather weak on their own so it's hard to stay back on D, and it was a problem if I had Survival with few creatures. Being able to chain Tarmogoyfs makes Survival much stronger in the deck, and it also poses another big threat against tougher matchups. Also, the fact he is a giant wall against opposing aggro and Goyfs is incredibly good at stalling until you can play more creatures. I only ran 3 because I did occasionally run into problems where it'd be the weakest card in play because it wouldn't benefit from the tribal synergy.

- Wren's Run Packmaster: I cut this originally when I ran the Mirror Entity combo because I felt anytime I could get him, Entity was a better call. However going back to it, I wanted a slot that could get around Pyroclasm and be a big body on its own, and it fulfills that void well. Packmaster is generally one of the top Survival targets behind Priest and Ranger, and it's ability to create swarms on its own against aggro and control decks is nuts.

- Squee: I was skeptical at first because the deck ran so well without it, but after added Natural Order and removing Sylvan Messenger I didn't have the consistent flow of creatures. Squee has been nothing short of excellent, as expected.

Things that got cut:

Sylvan Messenger: With adding Squee, Tarmogoyf, and Natural Order/Progenitus, Messenger was just way too inconsistent for me to run. I would often hit only 1-2 guys, and it wasn't worth the 3G investment.

Mirror Entity/Wirewood Symbiote: The combo isn't as consistent as Progenitus, so I cut them in favor of Order. They're both still decent creatures, but not strong enough in niche roles to make the cut.


Sideboard Changes:

- Empyrial Archangel: I found it unnecessary. In games that I would bother Ordering for it, Progenitus was almost always a better call. I just didn't find times where I wanted it:

- Tormod's Crypt: There was a lot of Ichorid, and it isn't a favorable matchup. Sadly for me it wasn't enough to stop it at Chicago.

- Teeg/Canonist: Rather self-explanitory. I didn't expect much combo there so I trimmed this down, and I never ran into them at all.

- Absolute Law: This is a vital sideboard piece because of all the bad crap the deck can see. I ran a Caller of the Claw over the 3rd because I feared Perish-type sweepers to deal with Natural Order.


With that out of the way, here's my Chicago report. I didn't take names really, but I'm more concerned with the decks I played against. My sideboarding was also really hazy, so I only really remember what I brought in and not what was taken out.

Round 1: Rating bye

Round 2: Dragon Stompy:
Game 1: He mulls on the play, and I keep a hand of 2 land, Priest, Natural Order, 2 Perfect, Llanowar Elf. He opens with Tomb, Chalice for 1. I play a land and pass. He plays City of Traitors and Trinisphere. I play land and pass. He plays a Jitte and passes, not seeing a colored source. I play a land and Priest. He draws and says go. I untap and play Natural Order and he scoops.

I brought in 4 Grip and 1 Teeg (not seeing colored sources I assumed he played Stax.)

Game 2: He opens with Mountain, go. I play Elf, go. He plays Tomb, and morph. I play a land and Priest. He attacks with the morph and flips it, then says go. I untap and play Imperious Perfect and Natural Order, and he scoops.

2-0
2-0

Round 3: Affinity

Game 1: I have a great hand of 2 land, Llanowar, Survival, Natural Order, Imperious Perfect, Elvish Champion, but am on the draw. His hand was apparently a lot better. He opened up with Seat, 2 Ornithopter, Springleaf Drum, Frogmite, go. I play Land, Elf, pass. He untaps and plays Nexus, Cranial Plating, equip and bash for a lot. I untap and play Survival and pass. He untaps, plays Master of Etherium and kills me. It was ridiculous.

I brought in 4 Krosan Grip.

Game 2: I have a turn 1 Priest, turn 2 Llanowar Elf and Survival. He has a slower start with turn 2 Plating, go. I untap and get another Priest, go a little nuts, and then play Packmaster but couldn't get Squee and have no creatures in hand. He Shrapnel Blasts the Packmaster and says go. I don't draw a creature, and next turn he gets a Ravager and Myr Enforcer. I hit a creature and Squee and Imperious Perfect. He attacks and I chump, and next turn I get 2 more Imperious Perfect. He notices I can attack for nearly 40 and scoops.

Game 3: He does nearly the same thing as game 1, and I had an awesome hand. I open 2 land, Priest, Zealot, Grip, Order, Imperious Perfect. He opens with Worker, go. I play land, go. He plays Plating and swings. I draw Llanowar Elf, and play Priest. He untaps, plays Disciple, Frogmite and Ornithopter and swings. I play the Llanowar Elf and don't hit a 3rd land, and Grip the Plating. He plays Master of Etherium and attacks. I don't hit another mana source and can't stop it.

1-2
2-1

Round 4: Aggro Loam

Game 1: I mull to 4 on the play. Awesome. Keep Land, Elf, Ranger, Champion on the draw. He plays Bayou, go. I play the Elf, and he cycles a land eot and I get sad inside. He untaps and plays a Goyf. I untap, draw Ranger, and play both Ranger and Champion. He swings and says go, missing a land drop. I untap and draw another Champion and swing for 9. He hits a land and plays a Bob, but I swing for the kill.

I bring in 2 Grip, 1 Caller, 3 Crypt, and 2 Absolute Law

Game 2: I open a hand of Land, Elf, 2 ESG, Progenitus, Order, Priest on the draw. He plays land, go. I draw, and discard Progenitus. He plays Bob. I play Elf and pass. He plays Goyf and swings with Bob. I untap, play a land, remove ESG and Order for Progenitus. He untaps, plays a land and Mox Diamond, then Burning Wishes for Perish like a chump. I play Priest the next turn, but he has the DD ready.

Game 3: I open with a turn 1 Priest. He plays Taiga, go. I play Absolute Law, go. He untaps and plays Chalice at 1. I draw a land and play Champion. He plays a Goyf. I draw Perfect and play Perfect. He swings and plays a second Goyf. I don't draw any relevant creatures afterwards, but he can't deal with Absolute Law. After the game he reveals his hand of 2 DD, 2 Crusher, and a Seismic Assault. I laughed.

2-1
3-1

Round 5: Saitou Tomoharu (Yes, the 2007 Player of the Year) playing Ichorid

Game 1: He's on the play and leads with Coliseum, LED. I play an Elf. He kills me.

I bring in Crypts and Teeg.

Game 2: We both mull to 5. I have a really fast army with 2 Goyf while he wiffed hitting another dredger off a GGT after Careful Study. I end up getting Order for Progenitus a turn later.

Game 3: He opens with Coliseum, Needle on Crypt. I stare at the Crypt in my one-land hand and weep. He kills me turn 3.

1-2
3-2

At this point I have to win out, so I say, "Fuck it, I'm gonna win out."

Round 6: UGBW Threshold

Game 1: I have turn 1 Elf, turn 2 Priest. He has turn 2 Countertop. I play turn 3 Perfect, he forces. He doesn't hit a 3rd land after a Ponder and passes. I play a Perfect, it sticks, and swing. He still doesn't hit 3rd land. I draw and play another Perfect, and smash his face.

I board in 4 Krosan Grips and 3 Choke.

Game 2: He opens with a Ponder. I have a turn 1 Elf. He plays a turn 2 Goyf. I play a turn 2 Choke that resolves. I play a turn 3 Priest and Ranger. He's stuck under Choke. I then play Imperious Perfect and Natural Order on turn 4 and he scoops.

2-0
4-2

Round 7: Nick DiTizio, Goblins

Game 1: He's on the play, and doesn't have a turn 1 Lackey. I play land, go. He plays turn 2 Vial. I play turn 2 Priest. He plays turn 3 Piledriver. I play turn 3 Elf, Perfect. He plays another Piledriver. I untap, play a Champion, then Natural Order. He scoops.

Game 2: He opens with a Vial. I have Elf, go. He plays Piledriver. I play Absolute Law. He grimaces. He plays Warchief. I play a few guys and Survival. He swings, then gets Earwig Squad. I go retarded with Elves and overwhelm him.

2-0
5-2

Round 8: Pox

Yeah, Pox. The deck's worst matchup outside Tendrils, and one I guaranteed I wouldn't see at a GP. It's a fucking GP, round 8 nonetheless.

Game 1: I play land, Elf. He Innocent Bloods. I play Vanquisher. He plays Smallpox. I play Tarmogoyf, he plays Smallpox. He plays Crucible, and I get out Champion and a Priest. I attack him down to 4, and he has Tomb of Urami making big guys, then plays double The Rack to hit me for 5 and 4.

I brought in Caller and Grips.

Game 2: I play a turn 1 Elf, he Innocent Bloods. I have a turn 2 Survival, and he Hymns me. I end up chaining Goyfs and win a race against a Tombstalker.

Game 3: He Thoughtseizes me turn 1 to see 4 land, 2 Survival, and Goyf. He takes the Goyf. I stick Survival turn 2, and start chaining Goyfs, and he kills them. He sticks a Tombstalker and the Rack. I eventually get a 3/4 Goyf with him at 9, while I'm at 7 and he has the Rack, Factory, and Tombstalker in play. I keep holding lands to get around the Rack, and I manage to play Ranger and Priest. He attacks me down to 2 and plays a Wasteland. I untap, draw a creature, play a fetchland and go to 1 grabbing a 2nd Taiga, and search out 2 Perfects and play them, then swing for 15.

2-1
6-2

Round 9: Team America

All I asked for was a blue deck in this round. I got it. And I won the dye roll.

Game 1: Opening 7..no lands. Mull to 6...1 land, 2 Perfect, Order, Packmaster, Champion. Mull to 5...no lands. Mull to 4...land, Elf, Survival, Order. Ok. I play Elf, go. He plays Thoughtseize and hits the Survival. I attack with the Elf. He plays 2 more Thoughtseize. I play a Priest, then he Snuff Outs both my creatures. I don't play another spell.

I boarded in Grips and Chokes.

Game 2: I open a turn 1 Priest. He Thoughtseizes, taking Survival. I play a turn 2 Priest. He Thoughtseizes Order, then Extirpates them. I play Champion and swing. He Edicts me. I draw land, swing. He Edicts me. I draw land, swing. He Edicts me and plays a Goyf. I don't draw another creature for the rest of the game. Wow.

I hastily sign the match slip and get the fuck out of my seat, infuriated. It was a pretty depressing way to to end losing to a good matchup.


Afterwards, I was still pleased, but decided the list needs some changes. The 18th land will be going into the deck somewhere, but I'm not sure where. I also will be adding Masticore into either the main or sideboard. I was craving removal all day, and that's the best for a green deck.

TheBirdMan
03-11-2009, 06:33 PM
Yeah, I boarded in Archangel twice and drew it both games, It wasnt that great.

Nihil Credo
03-11-2009, 06:55 PM
Good report, it was enjoyable to read.


I also will be adding Masticore into either the main or sideboard. I was craving removal all day, and that's the best for a green deck.
In this meta, go for Duplicant.

Di
03-11-2009, 07:18 PM
Good report, it was enjoyable to read.


In this meta, go for Duplicant.

That's a solid idea, but individual creatures aren't the issue; it's more swarms of them. Playing against Affinity I felt like I was behind because I couldn't match his number of threats. I've also had this issue against some other aggro decks. Although I believe aggro is a good matchup, being able to pick off a lot of creatures at once rather than a single creature is big. Plus, given the amount of mana the deck can generate, Masticore can kill everything aside from a Dreadnought, and even then that's realistic. He's also very good against Tarmogoyfs, especially in this deck as Goyfs typically don't get too big.

Nihil Credo
03-11-2009, 08:04 PM
Hmm, I see. Odd, I would have thought the opposite, i.e. that your Elves and Goyfs could match a horde of Goblins or Merfolk, but had problem against big fliers/tramplers or utility guys (Confidant, Sower, turn 2-3 Stalker).

Though if you can regularly make 8-12 mana (or even 24!) with your Priests, I wonder why you wouldn't just fetch Unyaro Bees* and smash face. I only played your list for a dozen games or so a month ago, but I remember that having enough Elves to make 10 mana on the board meant I wasn't afraid of opposing Tarmogoyfs and vice-versa. And obviously mana-intensive tutor targets like we're discussing are useless against the turn 2-3 kills that you got from Ichorid or Affinity.

*Not an actual suggestion, although it would be cool as hell.

Di
03-11-2009, 08:27 PM
Hmm, I see. Odd, I would have thought the opposite, i.e. that your Elves and Goyfs could match a horde of Goblins or Merfolk, but had problem against big fliers/tramplers or utility guys (Confidant, Sower, turn 2-3 Stalker).

Though if you can regularly make 8-12 mana (or even 24!) with your Priests, I wonder why you wouldn't just fetch Unyaro Bees* and smash face. I only played your list for a dozen games or so a month ago, but I remember that having enough Elves to make 10 mana on the board meant I wasn't afraid of opposing Tarmogoyfs and vice-versa. And obviously mana-intensive tutor targets like we're discussing are useless against the turn 2-3 kills that you got from Ichorid or Affinity.

*Not an actual suggestion, although it would be cool as hell.

I forgot to mention fliers. Those are also a problem, but usually only when in multiples. If I'm facing a single flier, then odds are I can race it, or it will have to play D because I have too many creatures. It's rare that other decks can race this, so that's an advantage. The problem with swarms is that your creatures get significantly weaker as a group when more die, because the tribe is built on numbers. Ganging up on creatures is fine, but when a Goblin army attacks and I'm left with next to nothing it's rough. That's partially what Tarmogoyf is there for, but that doesn't exactly solve the issue of killing creatures.

adrieng
03-12-2009, 04:50 AM
So far, I have found that tribal decks are good mathcup. Goblin is a bit harder than merfolk but is still decent. Here sylvan messenger is way better than tarmogoyf.
The problems of this deck are decks that plays blast+goyf such as goyf sligh or tempo threh splash red. Here tarmogoyf is better than messenger cause you'll never have engouh mana to cast it (killing your small guy with fire/ice and such is so easy or grim lavamancer).
I now think tarmogoyf is not needed, I have been testing it and the deck loses a lot of power. What's up with everybody playing elvish spirit guide ?
This card is CD it's really bad just play more quirion ranger or even boreal druid. I am now playing 10 one mana elves and 4 quirion ranger with 16 lands.
It has been fine for me.

Esper3k
03-12-2009, 10:43 AM
I've been pretty dissatisfied with Sylvan Messenger myself, so I'm glad to see people taking it out.

I do like Natural Order in the deck as well since it seems like a natural (no pun intended) fit for it. My only issue is that since the deck is essentially mono green, there's little way to protect it (too bad something like Boseiju isn't more viable). The nice thing though is that the deck isn't based around NO/Progenitus, rather the combo compliments the deck.

Adrieng: In regards to ESG, I think if you're playing the NO/Progenitus combo, it's definitely needed. You can accelerate out to Progenitus just so much faster with it.

adrieng
03-12-2009, 12:18 PM
Esper3k :

I am obviously playing 4 natural order. (I am the first who proposed it.)
The question is how does elvish guide accelerate more than a one cc elf (such as more quirion, or boreal druid) ?
- Guide is Card Disadvantage you are maybe going to play a turn one priest
but if you don't have an elf do go with it, it sucks. Or even worse if your priest is killed, you have made a two for one.
On the contrary turn one mana elf, turn two priest is much better, no card disadvantage much better synergy with the whole deck.

I really don't see how it accelerates the deck, maybe you can go turn two order. But if it gets countered, this time you have made a three for one ...

TheBirdMan
03-12-2009, 12:21 PM
Spirit guide is pretty great, It does get turn 2 order reletively frequently and makes people who play daze really sad.

Esper3k
03-12-2009, 12:28 PM
Esper3k :

I am obviously playing 4 natural order. (I am the first who proposed it.)
The question is how does elvish guide accelerate more than a one cc elf (such as more quirion, or boreal druid) ?
- Guide is Card Disadvantage you are maybe going to play a turn one priest
but if you don't have an elf do go with it, it sucks. Or even worse if your priest is killed, you have made a two for one.
On the contrary turn one mana elf, turn two priest is much better, no card disadvantage much better synergy with the whole deck.

I really don't see how it accelerates the deck, maybe you can go turn two order. But if it gets countered, this time you have made a three for one ...


The T2 Order is pretty much what ESG is about. You can easily go T1: Forest, Mana Elf. T2: Land, pitch ESG, Natural Order.

As TheBirdMan also stated, it's great protection against Daze as well.

adrieng
03-12-2009, 12:29 PM
The deck is not belcher, you don't want to go all in with a turn two order.
And how does mana elves don't make daze useless ?
You still have to wait one turn. But, you have an elf in play that makes mana EACH TURN and can swing.
If you are going to play elvish spirit guide, and no messenger, I would even prefer playing chrome mox.

TheBirdMan
03-12-2009, 12:36 PM
If you see they are playing blue you arent going to play turn 2 order, if they arent, you win. the deck already runs 7 mana elves plus priest of titania for accell , esg is just a nice compliment. Also, I usually play my esg's as 3/3 forest walkers later on which are nice.

Esper3k
03-12-2009, 12:45 PM
The deck is not belcher, you don't want to go all in with a turn two order.
And how does mana elves don't make daze useless ?
You still have to wait one turn. But, you have an elf in play that makes mana EACH TURN and can swing.
If you are going to play elvish spirit guide, and no messenger, I would even prefer playing chrome mox.

Against a deck with no countermagic, sure I'd go all in on a T2 Progenitus. He's going to win you the game in 2 turns if they don't find an answer.

If you have mana open, noone's going to play Daze on you.

Say you kept a hand with Llanowar Elf, Forest, Priest, ESG (only 1 land in the hand).

You can safely T2 the Priest now against Daze because of the ESG. You wouldn't be able to do that if the ESG was another Llanowar/Fyndhorn. This puts you back a turn casting the Priest as T2, you pretty much have to waste your time dropping another 1 mana elf.

adrieng
03-12-2009, 12:53 PM
If your mana elves gets killed which you have (9+4). I have (12+4).
You will not resolve natural order with no creature in play, I will (or you will but much later).
On the contrary, one turn of difference (turn 3 instead of turn 2) is not really a concern, but against aggro loam.
Against goblin, their WW will be more devastating. You want to have at least two elves before going for order.

adrieng
03-12-2009, 12:56 PM
Esper3k :

but if your mana elves is a quirion ranger which I play 4, you are going to play quirion ranger+priest on turn two and being daze proof.
And having something like 7 mana on turn three...
Your example is a proof that mana elves are much much better....

TheBirdMan
03-12-2009, 12:58 PM
You also have to remember in this debate that this isnt a natural order deck, it isn't a survival deck. Thats what makes it so solid, it doesnt need either of these cards to win. If you get them of course its great but at its core its just elf beat down hopefully with forestwalk.

adrieng
03-12-2009, 01:04 PM
Also quirion ranger+ imperious perfect has a lot of synergy (3 2/2 each turn)
and quirion ranger+timberwatch elf (i play them as a 4 off) is awesome.
quirion ranger+priest is also really good.
Really the first card you should play as a 4 off is ranger.

Esper3k
03-12-2009, 01:05 PM
Esper3k :

but if your mana elves is a quirion ranger which I play 4, you are going to play quirion ranger+priest on turn two and being daze proof.
And having something like 7 mana on turn three...
Your example is a proof that mana elves are much much better....

If you had Quirion instead of ESG, true. However, if someone kills your mana elf and you have a hand with say 2 lands, ESG, Priest - you can now play Priest T2 with Daze protection, something Quirion can't do.

There's no argument that mana elves are better for later turns. ESG is purely there as an accelerant for your early game when you immediately need the mana.

Esper3k
03-12-2009, 01:07 PM
Also quirion ranger+ imperious perfect has a lot of synergy (3 2/2 each turn)
and quirion ranger+timberwatch elf (i play them as a 4 off) is awesome.
quirion ranger+priest is also really good.
Really the first card you should play as a 4 off is ranger.

I agree Ranger is a great card - I may try it as a 4-of myself. I play in a group that has a lot of Wastelands flying around and I've found the Rangers to be amazing against that.

I'm not sold on the Timberwatches yet since they just seem a little slow to me (I'm still playing around with Mirror Entities).

Di
03-12-2009, 03:13 PM
So far, I have found that tribal decks are good mathcup. Goblin is a bit harder than merfolk but is still decent. Here sylvan messenger is way better than tarmogoyf.
The problems of this deck are decks that plays blast+goyf such as goyf sligh or tempo threh splash red. Here tarmogoyf is better than messenger cause you'll never have engouh mana to cast it (killing your small guy with fire/ice and such is so easy or grim lavamancer).
I now think tarmogoyf is not needed, I have been testing it and the deck loses a lot of power. What's up with everybody playing elvish spirit guide ?
This card is CD it's really bad just play more quirion ranger or even boreal druid. I am now playing 10 one mana elves and 4 quirion ranger with 16 lands.
It has been fine for me.

You just pointed out how Sylvan Messenger is bad in bad matchups, yet good in good matchups. That's a waste of space to me. Instead, I'd rather have something that is good in bad matchups, and not amazing, but not bad in all of the other matchups. That's what Tarmogoyf does.

Elvish Spirit Guide is rather important, at least to me it is. One of the deck's biggest strengths is its ability to rush a lot of problematic spells before the opponent can do anything about it. Speed is really important here, because once the opponent begins to stabilize, our deck gets much weaker. Being able to play Priest or Survival turn 1 rather than turn 2 is a huge advantage, as well as more consistent turn 2 Natural Orders or lords. If I'm playing against a deck without Force of Will or Daze, I'm going to do everything I can to hope for that turn 2 all-in. It either ends the game right there, or puts you way ahead. Plus, given there are so many Daze decks, it's an insane tempo boost if you're able to catch them off guard with it. Given that you play nearly 30 must-counter bomb spells, the slight card disadvantage you have in exchange for speed isn't an issue at all.


I do like Natural Order in the deck as well since it seems like a natural (no pun intended) fit for it. My only issue is that since the deck is essentially mono green, there's little way to protect it (too bad something like Boseiju isn't more viable). The nice thing though is that the deck isn't based around NO/Progenitus, rather the combo compliments the deck.

I personally feel that the deck almost protects the card anyway, and additional help isn't needed. Odds are you're going to have more than a single must-counter card in your hand. If that's the case, run everything else important out before Natural Order, whether it be Survival, Perfect, Champion, etc. If those are countered, it clears the way for Order to win the game. If they resolve, you're probably going to win the game anyway. Generally unless I know the opponent can't deal with it or I don't have another choice, I'll hold back on rushing out Natural Order to ensure it resolves.

adrieng
03-12-2009, 03:41 PM
You just pointed out how Sylvan Messenger is bad in bad matchups, yet good in good matchups. That's a waste of space to me. Instead, I'd rather have something that is good in bad matchups, and not amazing, but not bad in all of the other matchups. That's what Tarmogoyf does

I agree here, but he is so much better than goyf in others matchup.
It allowed you to combo out chaining messenger + priest (with survival) and going lethal with timberwatch. It reloads your hand and he is so much better in tribal matchups and not red threshold...
Maybe goyf could be played in the sideboard, cause I always cut messenger first when I bring new cards (as a consequence that the number of elves decreases).



Being able to play Priest or Survival turn 1 rather than turn 2 is a huge advantage

-I don't see how turn one survival is better than turn one elf turn two survival
I will still have one mana to discard a creature, whereas you will spend both of your turn two setting the engine with nothing on the board
My board will be much better than yours and I will be daze proof and not you (if on the draw).
- turn one priest followed by a 3cc creature does the same thing than turn one mana elves turn two 3cc creatures, but if you lose your priest you'll have make CD.
- you are still daze proof playing with mana elves, and you can sometimes make more than one mana thanks to ranger, ranger has synergy with the whole deck guide hasn't.
- In this deck guide is just a lotus petal which is bad.



Given that you play nearly 30 must-counter bomb spells, the slight card disadvantage you have in exchange for speed isn't an issue at all.


You don't really gain speed cause you lose a lot of synergy between the cards and lot of consistency what makes the deck win.

Di
03-12-2009, 09:16 PM
I agree here, but he is so much better than goyf in others matchup.
It allowed you to combo out chaining messenger + priest (with survival) and going lethal with timberwatch. It reloads your hand and he is so much better in tribal matchups and not red threshold...
Maybe goyf could be played in the sideboard, cause I always cut messenger first when I bring new cards (as a consequence that the number of elves decreases).

The example you're giving is rather moot, because not only could it be overkill, but also unlikely. Your scenario would involve hitting 3-4 creatures with Sylvan Messenger in order to "combo," and then still have enough mana leftover to go nuts. Given you run 16+ land, Survival, Order, Anger, Squee, and Progenitus, getting that kind of CA on Messenger is rare. Plus, if you even have that option of generating a lot of mana and casting Messenger with mana to spare, it's almost never stronger than simply getting Wren's Run Packmaster, which not only is a huge body on its own and can make more dudes, but doesn't have the potential to wiff and be a poor investment.

You're trying to argue him in favor of being good in an already good matchup. Tribal decks are not the problem here, Red Threshold (for the sake of this argument at least) is. The deck can square up with other aggro decks fine. I can't understand why you're trying to justify the slot when it's at its best when you're already in a favorable matchup. Instead, we should be focusing on doing what we can to improve the bad matchups.

Plus, I feel it really speaks something of a card when it is always the first to be removed when sideboarding. If you it as a purely game 1 card, then it's arguably the weakest card in the deck, and not worth running if it's going to be bad in all your bad matchups. To me, Tarmogoyf is the weakest slot in my deck. However, it's still strong enough to be good in every matchup.


-I don't see how turn one survival is better than turn one elf turn two survival
I will still have one mana to discard a creature, whereas you will spend both of your turn two setting the engine with nothing on the board
My board will be much better than yours and I will be daze proof and not you (if on the draw).

There's a huge difference here. By having two mana available when you untap rather than one with turn 1 Elf, turn 2 Survival, you're able to have both Anger and Squee by turn 3, and will be ahead to play spells on turn 3. Not to mention, if you're on the play, it would shut off an opponent from Thoughtseizing it, being open for Daze, or using Brainstorm to search for Force of Will. Take the following scenario though on this:

Turn 1: Land, ESG, Survival.
Turn 2: Land. Pitch creature for Squee, pitch Squee for Anger. (or vice versa, depending on the rest of your hand).
Turn 3: This can be variable, but at this point you'd be ahead. You will either already have haste and Squee to dump off, or if you pitch Squee first, two creatures to go find other stuff. Either way, you're in a better position as far as Survival goes than had you not played it until turn 2.

Or, we could wait:

Turn 1: Land, Elf
Turn 2: Land, Survival. Pitch creature for Anger/Squee
Turn 3: At this point, it's possible you can play a land and be up a single mana. However, that's almost negated because you'd need to use an additional mana to get Anger/Squee on your own turn.


However, the entire argument is completely irrelevant, because for some reason you're under the impression we are bad players running these out against Daze decks. Do you honestly believe people are that bad at Magic? What kind of Survival player is just going to go all-in turn 1 against a deck packing Daze? Obviously this isn't going to happen with someone with half a brain. Anyway, this isn't something you're going to go for every game, even if you have the option. It's dependant on what else is in your hand, what options you have, etc. Sometimes, the extra mana you get from the turn 1 Elf will matter, sometimes it won't. Also, please, please do not argue against ESG in terms of Daze, because it was added to fit against Daze in the first place. Trying to make it sound like it is bad against it doesn't make any sense.


In this deck guide is just a lotus petal which is bad.

False. Guide is not a Lotus Petal: it is an elf and will take all the buffs from Priest and lords, a 2/2 body, a creature to pitch to Survival, a creature to sacrifice to Natural Order, and 3cc to get around Counterbalance in a pinch. It happens to be a lot more than an effective accelerant.


You don't really gain speed cause you lose a lot of synergy between the cards and lot of consistency what makes the deck win.

Don't gain speed? Are you aware of the difference between a Priest of Titania that can tap on turn 2 as opposed to turn 3? Another scenario example:

I just quickly took the deck out and shuffled until I hit a hand with ESG and Priest.

Hand:
Forest
Forest
ESG
Priest of Titania
Llanowar Elves
Imperious Perfect
Wren's Run Vanquisher

Turn 1: Land, ESG, Priest.
Turn 2: (Drew land) Land, Llanowar Elves, , tap Priest for GG and land, Imperious Perfect.
Turn 3: (Drew Imperious Perfect). Land, tap Priest for GGG and two lands, Wren's Run Vanquisher, Imperious Perfect.

The fact that Priest was able to tap a whole turn earlier sped the deck up a lot. Now, lets assume that ESG is just another mana elf, but all the same draws.

Turn 1: Land, Elf.
Turn 2: Land. Do you want to play Priest + Elf, Perfect, or Vanquisher + Elf? Regardless on how you look at it, you will be behind in both damage and mana.

That's just a single example, but turn 1 Priest of Titania is by far the most broken play in this deck. I just can't possibly comprehend your arguments about "losing synergy." Where exactly is synergy lost here?

TheBirdMan
03-12-2009, 10:39 PM
That is a giant list of truth bombs.

adrieng
03-13-2009, 04:53 AM
Don't gain speed? Are you aware of the difference between a Priest of Titania that can tap on turn 2 as opposed to turn 3? Another scenario example:

I just quickly took the deck out and shuffled until I hit a hand with ESG and Priest.

Hand:
Forest
Forest
ESG
Priest of Titania
Llanowar Elves
Imperious Perfect
Wren's Run Vanquisher

Turn 1: Land, ESG, Priest.
Turn 2: (Drew land) Land, Llanowar Elves, , tap Priest for GG and land, Imperious Perfect.
Turn 3: (Drew Imperious Perfect). Land, tap Priest for GGG and two lands, Wren's Run Vanquisher, Imperious Perfect.

The fact that Priest was able to tap a whole turn earlier sped the deck up a lot. Now, lets assume that ESG is just another mana elf, but all the same draws.

Turn 1: Land, Elf.
Turn 2: Land. Do you want to play Priest + Elf, Perfect, or Vanquisher + Elf? Regardless on how you look at it, you will be behind in both damage and mana.
Now assume, that the mana elf is a quirion arnger and the vanquisher is a timberwatch elf, cards that I am playing in your slots.
You have a turn one quirion, turn two priest followed by turn three perfect+timberwatch.
And you can go nutz with timberwatch something like +8+8 or go nutz with
imperious perfect with 3 2/2 each turn.

Esper3k
03-13-2009, 11:27 AM
For me, I've found the arguments and uses for Quirion Ranger pretty compelling - I'm messing around with a deck in MWS with 4 Ranger + 4 ESG...

I'm not sure I'm sold on Timberwatches yet though - mainly because in the area I play in, Pyroclasm isn't that uncommon, which the Vanquishers are much better against.

waSP
03-13-2009, 11:56 AM
Do you ever want multiples of Ranger? I like him as a 2- or 3-of. Pretty good chance I'll see him, but not a high chance I'll see two of him.

Esper3k
03-13-2009, 12:02 PM
Well, if you have an active Priest or a Perfect out, multiple Rangers can get silly.

waSP
03-13-2009, 04:44 PM
Esper, that didn't answer my question, which was, do you ever WANT multiple Quirion Rangers. If you aren't going to be winning that turn, it can throttle your mana hard.

Di, shouldn't you have created an Elf Warrior with your Perfect before you tapped Priest. If you want to talk about best plays, make sure you've reviewed all of your options.

Di
03-13-2009, 04:59 PM
Esper, that didn't answer my question, which was, do you ever WANT multiple Quirion Rangers. If you aren't going to be winning that turn, it can throttle your mana hard.

Di, shouldn't you have created an Elf Warrior with your Perfect before you tapped Priest. If you want to talk about best plays, make sure you've reviewed all of your options.

You could. I'm well aware of the possibilities on what you can do here, I was just highlighting the speed of what turn 1 Priest would accomplish and neglected to mention it. Odds are a token would be created here.

Regarding the Quirion Ranger debate, it's rather weird. It's one of the strongest cards in the deck, but running 3-4 is incredibly clunky. As strong as they are, you almost never have the amount of lands to really go as ridiculous as it implies. There have been dozens of occasions where I'd be doing Perfect + Ranger, but after a turn or two, I have no lands left in play. The only time multiples of Ranger in play are relevant are with Survival and Priest of Titania. Otherwise, it can't be taken advantage of because we don't have the lands to fuel it, and will be useless. It's good to see them consistently, but it's rare that I want to draw multiples outside of using them with Survival, which by then I should already be ahead.

Also, I wouldn't ever be able to justify running Timberwatch Elf. It's a card that is good solely when you're in a favorable board position, which is unnecessary and arguably winmore. To get really good use out of it, you want at least 3-4+ elves in play. If that's the case, I'll assume you're in a favorable position anyway. If you don't, then the card is absolutely awful.

adrieng
03-14-2009, 05:48 AM
Also, I wouldn't ever be able to justify running Timberwatch Elf. It's a card that is good solely when you're in a favorable board position, which is unnecessary and arguably winmore.

I really don't see how it's worse than elvish champion :
timberwatch + a lonly quirion ranger is 5 damage a turn

elvish champion + a lonly elf

is rather weak cause sometimes you can't even swing you are going to lose your elf
-if timberwatch elf stays only one turn you are safe from blasts

I have even killed turn 3 (goldfishing) with turn one elf turn two timberwatch turn three triple quirion=> game

I have killed nought with him without trading

Windux
03-14-2009, 07:09 AM
I tried to include Pro-Order, but still keep Entity in, because I love Wirewood Symbiote nearly as much as Quirion Ranger in this deck.

Here is with which I came out:

1 Anger
4 Elvish Champion
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Genesis
1 Harmonic Sliver / Viridian Zealot (I like the Sliver more, because of Plague)
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Llanowar Elves
1 Mirror Entity
4 Priest of Titania
2 Quirion Ranger
4 Sylvan Messenger
3 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Wood Elves

1 Progenitus
3 Natural Oder
4 Survival of the Fittest

4 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
3 Savannah
3 Taiga
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills

Wirewood Symbiote bounces creatures, giving you recurring chumpblockers, he saves you from removal (though he's the target #1) and he bounced you Messanger to give you Card Advantage.

I don't know what to cut for Order #4 or if I should play the #4.

The Cradle as 1-off turned out to be SOMETIMES good, but also let you get screwed if you draw it early (it lost me some games).
On turn 2 Cradle can be nuts i you dropped a first turn mana elf, but gets mostly negate by Priests if you don't have a Survival out (since you don't need that much mana without Survival).

GGoober
03-15-2009, 04:52 PM
I've kept Entity in, as Esper3k and I discussed while testing out the decks. The Mirror match was retarded and was determined on who drew Champion and Priests lol.

Here's my current NO-Elf Survival List:

Manabase: 17
6 Forest
3 Savannah
3 Taiga
2 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills

Creatures: 35 (32 Elves)
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Priest of Titania
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Elvish Champion
2 Mirror Entity
1 Sylvan Messenger
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
1 Birchlore Ranger
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Anger
1 Squee
1 Progenitus

(combo/super) Win Conditions: 8
4 Natural Order
4 Survival of the Fittest

Some comments:
Sylvan Messenger: In NO builds, this is the first to go since you are relying on NO for a win-condition more than chaining Sylvan Messengers with Anger for win condition. Chaining Messengers isn't easy since the mana consumption is huge. I still run 1 Messenger in the slot so that if my hand is dry with Survival, this helps in recovering some gas. In the pre-Elf Survival builds, I only ever wanted to see 1 Messenger, and multiple Messenger in opening hands without Priests is annoying as hell since it's too slow.

Squee: As much as I dislike goblins being in Elves, I think Squee needs to make the cut. Some testing showed that the deck runs out of gas and gets relevant cards countered/destroyed. A Survival sitting in play is useless if you have no creatures, and Squee saves the day. It is annoying to see Squee in your opening hand without Survival, but that is usually rare (1 out of 60 cards).

Quirion Ranger: This card has never been a bad card for me in the pre-Elf Survival builds that ran 2. In fact, I've always started to wonder back then that this guy generated much more mana than Symbiote + Priest could. It allows you to play with a 2 land hand and go through smoothly. Most importantly, in the NO builds, you are playing 5 more non-elf cards so Quirion Ranger over Symbiote is a natural decision to up the elf count. Also, Qurion Ranger protects against Wasteland/Sinkholes, and also allows the deck to become Forest-less against Forest-walkers (not that this comes up frequently except in the mirror lol). He's an Elf, so he beats with the Lords well, unlike Symbiote. Most of the time, Symbiote has annoyed me if I didn't draw enough elves to bounce and exploit Priest/Perfect. Quirion Ranger keeps the elves in play, so Priest isn't netting 1 less mana per activation.

Birchlore Ranger:
Esper3k tested this out, and I saw a game where he was simply ridiculous with Perfect + Quirion Ranger. Perfect tokens provided mana for another activation etc. More importantly, I think that Birchlore Ranger is more important in the Symbioteless builds since Woodelves become mediocore without Symtiote recursion. Birchlore is much less clunky. It is sometimes hard to play Wood Elves and then combo off since 3 mana is not easy to pull off. Birchlore's ability is immediate, and provides the mana you need to play Entity. Although we lose the ability to search for Taiga if Anger is in the yard. However, I think that in NO builds, Birchlore>Wood Elves for sure if you're seeking to go for faster Progenitus.

Wren's Run Packmaster: She seriously solves the Goyf + non-flying problems. There were a few cases where my wolfies alone attacked and won the game because my opponent refused to trade his Tombstalker with my wolfies :P She has a HUGE 5/5 body and can attack straight past a Goyf, not to mention she gets pumped by Lords into bigger proportions, and a Priest allows her to poop wolfies so fast it's scary. She's more of a fun-win condition, but I was never disappointed in drawing or playing her. 4 mana 5/5 with a good ability is a rare choice in Legacy.


Elvish Spirit Guide: Never run less than 4. I think this card is too perfect in Elf Survival, and I'm feeling even non-Elf Survival should consider this card. It allows for turn 1 Survival/Priest, dodges daze, speeds up NO-Progenitus, feeds to Survival in the mid-game, and beats as an Elf with Lord pumps. It does EVERYTHING the deck needs, and is more crucial in NO-builds for either comboing out faster against non-control decks, or become Daze fodder against control decks.

Mirror Entity: Esper3k and I discussed on Mirror Entity. It should be included since it not only acts as lords 9-10 in the deck, but it is simply explosive with a board position of 4 Elves or more with Priest + Ranger in play. Also importantly, the white splash for Entity also makes the sideboard more diverse to the deck's weaknesses, namely Absolute Law against Goblins/Burn/Aggro Loam, and Gaddock Teeg against combo.

Last comment on Mirror Entity: It's cool we found the infinite combo with Priest + Mirror Entity + Symbiote. However, after much testing, it is often redundant. 2 Activations from Priest alone is good to win with Entity. We don't have to go infinite at all. Mirror Entity, as I shall argue, should be part of the NO-build as to provide another win condition outside of lord beats or Progenitus beats. Entity beats with Priest is almost an unstoppable win-condition. So currently, the board has 2 situations:
[1] good board position = good Lord/Entity beats
[2] bad board position = good Progenitus beats

If we simply stick to NO without Entity, then we would be relying on [2] too often. More importantly, white allows us to splash for key cards in the sideboard that help improve certain matchups. Absolute Law against Goblins/Burn/Goyf Sligh/Aggro Loam, and Teeg against Combo/Landstill.


And seriously, Timberwatch is far weaker than Mirror Entity. Both Timberwatch and Mirror Entity requires a good board position for the pumps to be relevant. But Mirror Entity pumps all creatures, while Timberwatch only pumps one. Sure, you can argue that Ranger/Symbiote would make Timberwatch more effective, but similarly, with that same arguement, Ranger/Symbiote + Priest will be much more powerful as you swing in with multiple Timberwatch-pumped elves with Entity.

Di
03-15-2009, 11:49 PM
Birchlore Ranger is very interesting. It's not something I've ever thought of, so I'm going to look into that.


Wren's Run Packmaster: She seriously solves the Goyf + non-flying problems. There were a few cases where my wolfies alone attacked and won the game because my opponent refused to trade his Tombstalker with my wolfies :P She has a HUGE 5/5 body and can attack straight past a Goyf, not to mention she gets pumped by Lords into bigger proportions, and a Priest allows her to poop wolfies so fast it's scary. She's more of a fun-win condition, but I was never disappointed in drawing or playing her. 4 mana 5/5 with a good ability is a rare choice in Legacy.

Actually, Wren's Run Packmaster is, aside from Mirror Entity, the most optimal win condition in the deck with Survival in play. A lot of the time one I have Survival, I find myself going for a plan of Priests + Ranger + Packmaster a majority of the time. The deck can take Survival options of Dudes + Lords, Goyfs or something, Entity, or Packmaster, but as I didn't run Entity, I did resorted to adding a ton of mana and making 5/6 wolves over any other option. It's like a two turn clock that also completely halts aggro.

GGoober
03-16-2009, 01:38 AM
I've done some testing on MWS and found the following with my build above:

The deck almost wins if Natural Order or Survival goes unanswered. Both require 2 turns to win, with Survival going through multiple steps to set up (each set up is different with respect to board position).

Things I've noticed:
Quirion Ranger: Definitely enjoying the 3 copies in the deck. She has better synergy with Priest than Symbiote since she's an Elf to count, and she doesn't bounce an elf, therefore doesn't make a net loss with Priest. And to be honest, with Symbiote, you would chain into multiple of Priest and then combo with Mirror Entity to beat. But with Ranger, you no longer have to chain into Priest, but rather, you can chain into Ranger, which are cheaper to cast, and they count as untapped creatures that can swing in with haste with Mirror Entity. If you played the Symbiote route, you would have to chain into Priests, each of them tapping to pump Mirror Entity and the rest of the elves, and you find yourself with a lack of untapped beaters. Ranger has been a much better consideration after the testing I've done. Mostly she doesn't lead to a loss of mana which Symbiote does since it bounces elves. One can argue that bouncing elves save against EE or Deed activation, but seriously, you shouldn't be playing a bunch of crucial elves if you're not planning to win in one turn by aggro-comboing out.

Sylvan Messenger: Definitely happy with the 1 copy. I'm still annoyed drawing him in the opening hand, but I tutor for him if I'm dry on hand with Survival in play. Another option is Squee, but Messenger gives you that possible win-on-that-turn

Squee: I think this Goblin deserves to be an elf in NO-Elf Survival. Just imagine him as a land instead of a non-elf. He does quite a lot for the deck. Genesis on the other hand is stupid slow and not worth the slot.

Wren's Run Packmaster: Agreeing with what Di said. In cases where I'm lacking white, or have a board position of little critters, I search Packmaster up over Entity since she creates creatures. In cases where I have a ton of elves out, I would search out Mirror Entity for the win. I think Packmaster has to be in the deck since she allows you to win with a mediocore board position by establishing a better one with her ability. Mirror Entity needs a board position of at least 4 Elves including Priest to be effective.

Mirror Entity: Half of my wins are from Entity beats. And that's solely because this deck empties elves onto the board fast. In cases where I don't have Priests or enough elves to abuse Entity, I go for Packmaster or Perfect beats.

Birchlore Ranger v.s. Wood Elves: I considered this again. Birchlore is more tight and goes off faster, but I think this deck just cannot cut Wood Elves. Grabbing that Taiga is key when you have Survival and Anger without a Mountain. Maybe both cards can be included in the deck, although space is already very tight. I might end up playing Birchlore as the 7th mana-elf or 8th mana-elf.

Turn 2 NO-Progenitus are not too uncommon, and require ESG and turn 1 Llanowar to pull it off. And a angered-Progenitus? Lol. I've goldfished Turn 4 wins very often. Turn 3 wins are a little hard, and usually involve Survival. Natural Order is much slower but it guarantees a win if you don't see Wrath/Perish/Damnation.

bigbear102
03-16-2009, 08:10 AM
I really don't see how it's worse than elvish champion :
timberwatch + a lonly quirion ranger is 5 damage a turn

elvish champion + a lonly elf

is rather weak cause sometimes you can't even swing you are going to lose your elf
-if timberwatch elf stays only one turn you are safe from blasts

I have even killed turn 3 (goldfishing) with turn one elf turn two timberwatch turn three triple quirion=> game

I have killed nought with him without trading



I played Di's exact list at the GP. I have to say that I would never play the deck without Elvish Champion. How many decks in the format do not play a forest? It is ridiculous how often your dudes are unblockable and just swing in for the win unimpeded. He also gets around Plague in games 2-3, the most commonly boarded card against this deck.

As Colin said, Timberwatch is winmore most of the time, needing those elves in play. It might be a quicker goldfish, but you aren't going to have the resiliency and mid-game clock that champion gives you. And the deck already has several options for 2 turn clocks readily available.

adrieng
03-16-2009, 02:15 PM
As Colin said, Timberwatch is winmore most of the time, needing those elves in play. It might be a quicker goldfish, but you aren't going to have the resiliency and mid-game clock that champion gives you. And the deck already has several options for 2 turn clocks readily available.

Did you even try the card ? It seems to me you didn't give it a try and that you are just saying that without testing. Has anyone but me tested timberwatch with 4 quirion ranger in the deck ?

Timberwatch is obviously better than champion cause
-they are not going to block either ( other way their goyf is gone be killed)
-they are not going to attack cause you can kill their goyf

Timberwatch is better than mirror entity lots of times

- you don't want to spend your whole turn just tap mana for attacking
- timberwatch doesn't need mana meaning you can block easily
- you can attack or block and PLAY cards
- you don't need to splash white

In lots of matchup such as threshold you are not the aggro player meaning
your opponent has to attack with goyf before you play your oops I win spells. There timberwatch is better cause it lets you block.
Timberwatch elf is THE main kill of the deck (attacking with elf).


If you don't want to play messenger which I play four and you should, play at least a one off regal force !!!
Man this card is so good just go priest quirion, play your hand with mana tutor for it draw 8 cards and win.
It happens also(more often that it seems) that you have progenitus in hand, regal force is a nice target for order.

bigbear102
03-16-2009, 10:15 PM
Did you even try the card ? It seems to me you didn't give it a try and that you are just saying that without testing. Has anyone but me tested timberwatch with 4 quirion ranger in the deck ?

Timberwatch is obviously better than champion cause
-they are not going to block either ( other way their goyf is gone be killed)
-they are not going to attack cause you can kill their goyf

Timberwatch is better than mirror entity lots of times

- you don't want to spend your whole turn just tap mana for attacking
- timberwatch doesn't need mana meaning you can block easily
- you can attack or block and PLAY cards
- you don't need to splash white

In lots of matchup such as threshold you are not the aggro player meaning
your opponent has to attack with goyf before you play your oops I win spells. There timberwatch is better cause it lets you block.
Timberwatch elf is THE main kill of the deck (attacking with elf).


If you don't want to play messenger which I play four and you should, play at least a one off regal force !!!
Man this card is so good just go priest quirion, play your hand with mana tutor for it draw 8 cards and win.
It happens also(more often that it seems) that you have progenitus in hand, regal force is a nice target for order.

No, I have not tested the card, and if I did it would be in place of Wren's Run Vanquisher, not Champion.

You say that your opponent will not block, but I think that if you can kill them they will block. With Champion they do not have that choice. Also, you never mentioned the fact that Champion shuts down the most popular SB card this deck sees, Engineered Plague.

As for your comment about not being the aggro player in the threshold matchup... What?! Their whole game plan is to drop Counterbalance and slow the game down. You want to win before they can do that. If you are not the aggro player then what are you? This deck is the aggressor in basically every match you will play. If you cannot race your opponent you will lose most of the time.

Champion is also better in any counterbalance matchup because it's a 3cc slot that can get around Counterbalance rather than a 1 drop that just gets countered as soon as they get countertop going, and will get countered lots of times even without top in play.

GGoober
03-16-2009, 10:31 PM
Some points don't really make sense to me.

Timberwatch is obviously better than champion cause
-they are not going to block either ( other way their goyf is gone be killed)
They can't block ANY if they're playing Goyf and you're playing Champion. You might want to risk them still blocking your Elf, and then while you pump, they stifle and you're at a loss

-they are not going to attack cause you can kill their goyf
Point taken, but that means you have blockers in elves? The only situations where I don't attack is when I don't draw into Lords. I ALWAYS attack to put them on a clock before they have an answer to the board. Similarly, if I drew into Lords, I would be attacking and race their goyfs, while if you drew into Timberwatch, you're leaving them to block?

Timberwatch is better than mirror entity lots of times
- you don't want to spend your whole turn just tap mana for attacking
I wouldn't if I'm playing Mirror Entity or other spells. Similarly, you wouldn't attack the turn Timberwatch came into play since he has no haste. But I would definitely attack with Entity FIRST before casting spells second main phase since I would force my opponent to make a choice of blocking and losing his creatures before I go ahead and play out spells.

Most importantly, if you played Timberwatch, you have to overextend to make his ability useful, playing out multiple elves and rangers, to untap him multiple times on SEPARATE targets to pump your elves for the swing. Mirror Entity allows you not to overextend by simply beating with a group of 4/4s or 6/6s. You don't need your creatures to be 20/20s. You win on the back of 6/6s pretty easily.

- timberwatch doesn't need mana meaning you can block easily
Once again, I only block in Elf Survival if I don't draw the offensive. I can't see your point using my point since if I don't draw the offensive and were playing Timberwatch elf, then I can't block effectively either since my elves aren't big.

- you can attack or block and PLAY cards
Maybe your meta let's you afford to lose time to block around but this deck really tries to win on turn 3 (It goldfishes turn 4 very frequently). And see my point on playing cards on the 2nd main phase after bluffing an attack. Also, if you have Elvish Champion, your team swings in for quite a lot without even the investment of mana.

- you don't need to splash white
With the new builds with more Quirion Rangers, splashing a color is fine since your mana base is protected by Ranger. You usually fetch basics anyway until you really need that white source. And I don't see how white is a bad splash. It gives you so many answers in the sideboard: Absolute Law which tremendously improves our bad matchups against burn/sligh/aggro loam/pyroclasm/goblins. And we have Teeg which hoses combo. This deck dies to combo a lot and I think Teeg/Canonist are key to stopping combo along with Thorn of Amethyst.

I've never played the Timberwatch build, but I had an old elf deck, and played with Classic Timberwatch + Wellwisher + Symbiote and I had trouble with a bad board position or no Symbiote. Timberwatch becomes mediocore if it uses its ability only once. I've been amazed at Mirror Entity after picking up this deck, and it is one of the reason why I'm still playing the deck. Entity is just nuts with Survival Engine with multiple chains of Priest mana. If you really like Timberwatch, I would recommend playing just 1 copy to tutor up for. Drawing multiple of them sucks since they're useless by themselves unlike the Lords (namely Perfect), and without Haste or untapping effects, they become so mediocore. I would agree they shine with Ranger, but then again I think Priest shines more with Ranger as she allows you to play your whole hand and proceed to combo off in that turn.

Di
03-16-2009, 11:18 PM
Timberwatch is obviously better than champion cause
-they are not going to block either ( other way their goyf is gone be killed)
-they are not going to attack cause you can kill their goyf

Timberwatch is better than mirror entity lots of times

- you don't want to spend your whole turn just tap mana for attacking
- timberwatch doesn't need mana meaning you can block easily
- you can attack or block and PLAY cards
- you don't need to splash white

In lots of matchup such as threshold you are not the aggro player meaning
your opponent has to attack with goyf before you play your oops I win spells. There timberwatch is better cause it lets you block.
Timberwatch elf is THE main kill of the deck (attacking with elf).

These arguments are basically leading me to the conclusion that you are either playing against incompetant opponents, you're not playing against any opponents, or you don't know how to play the deck correctly.

Saying that the Elf deck is not the aggressor against Threshold, or any match for that matter, is completely wrong. That's like saying Landstill is trying to play the aggressor against Goblins.

If you have Elvish Champion in play, you will always be aggressive. Odds are, the opponent can't block, so you're swinging for free each turn. If they can, you can still potentially race them anyway. The way you're describing Timberwatch is as if you're trying to play control with him rather than be aggressive. If you're going to misassign roles on how to play the deck, then you won't be beating Threshold very often.

If you're arguments against Mirror Entity are based on experience, then you don't know how to play the card correctly. You aren't going to simply dump all your mana to it then swing. You have options on how you want to do this. If you attack, they can choose to block or not. Either way, even if you dump a lot of mana for the turn, they will be taking a lot of damage. If you're at a point where you can be dumping all your mana into Mirror Entity and swinging for a lot, I fail to see why you need to be playing more cards as is. They need to deal with that asap or they will die. It's pointless to slow yourself down to play more creatures when you can be killing the opponent instead. Plus, if you're trying to keep guys back to block, you're already finding yourself in a losing position. This is not a defensive deck, and it sucks at playing defense. You need to be on the offensive to put pressure on the opponent or else they will stabilize and be able to deal with your threats.
Also, white should be in the deck regardless if you run Mirror Entity or not. You need some sort of answer to handle combo decks and hate cards, and white is the only color that offers this.


Most importantly, if you played Timberwatch, you have to overextend to make his ability useful, playing out multiple elves and rangers, to untap him multiple times on SEPARATE targets to pump your elves for the swing. Mirror Entity allows you not to overextend by simply beating with a group of 4/4s or 6/6s. You don't need your creatures to be 20/20s. You win on the back of 6/6s pretty easily.

This. This basically says it all.

Overextending to make the card stronger is terrible. The only time you will ever want to be overextending in this deck is if you're playing against aggro and need to match their creatures, or on the verge of death and really don't have a choice. If you're playing against aggro decks that's a moot point because you run more creatures than aggro anyway, and at that point Timberwatch is merely win more. Against Counterbalance decks, in order to make Timberwatch useful you need to get a lot of creature in play and naturally overextend. For game 1 at least this is almost acceptable because Pyroclasm is in the sideboard, but it most certainly isn't likely to happen. Most of the guys you need to play cost 1-2 to really buff up Timberwatch. If you don't have many in play before Counterbalance hits, then Timberwatch is incredibly weak, because odds are you won't be resolving many of them after Counterbalance resolves. What will resolve, however, are lords, and those are what will push you through to win, not trying to assemble a horde against Counterbalance. Point is, in a matchup like Threshold, Timberwatch is highly reliant on Counterbalance not seeing play, and that's not something I'm going to base my luck on.

Or think of other matchups where we're looking for help against, such as Aggro Loam, Landstill, or other decks with Engineered Plague and Pyroclasm. Again, in order to make good use out of Timberwatch, you need to play out as many guys as you can. And when you drop your hand to give him the biggest boost, and the opponent plays Devastating Dreams, Wrath of God, or Engineered Plague and wipes out your board, you're left with a weak board and almost no hand. That doesn't cut it when we're trying to get cards in here that fight against that stuff. Although I don't run Mirror Entity currently, I can speak on its behalf that it can get the job done just fine with 2-3 creatures and can hold more back in those matchups. Turning all of your creatures into 4/4-6/6+ rather than one of them is a whole lot faster than Timberwatch, not to mention you can keep cards in hand to play once you get hit by a sweeper. If you're going to bother doing that with Timberwatch, then it's pointless to run it in the first place because it wouldn't be taking advantage of its full potential, which is almost suicial already with it's all-in approach.

However, I cut Mirror Entity for the same reason I wouldn't run Timberwatch Elf: it doesn't address any issues with the above hate cards. Entity still died to Plague, DD, Pyroclasm, etc, hence why I cut it. I felt that was also a bit win more, but neither of them do anything against the hate. Granted, you can play out Entity + Elf against a deck like Landstill and put pressure on, but it's still weak against hate.

@ Timberwatch v. Champion argument:

A majority of the format runs green. That makes all of your creatures threats, no matter the numbers. Take what I said above about that overextension business with Timberwatch, and apply the opposite to Elvish Champion. I've won countless games alone with simply Champion and 1-2 elves in play, simply because they can't block. You cannot assume that you will have a copious amount of creatures in play against any given deck. Rather, you should focus on how to get the best out of what few creatures you have if you're stuck on few resources. That's why I've been running Tarmogoyf, because there are far too many instances where I'm stick with very few creatures and can't play defense. The deck is at its strongest when a lot of creatures are in play, but has serious problems when it doesn't. That's why you need creatures that can fit that niche slot for when you don't have a big board. Lords can help this because they make all your creatures grow, but Timberwatch is too conditional for this. Also while I'm at it, I'll add that as lords, they still fight against Plagues and Pyroclasm. Although Pyroclasm requires 2 of them, with 8 in the deck it's still reasonable to do so. Timberwatch offers no such outs against any hate (and hell, it can be Pithing Needled in a pinch). Plus, it's a terrible topdeck. If I sat on an empty board and drew Timberwatch Elf, I'd be a lot worse off than if I drew something like Elvish Champion.

Esper3k
03-17-2009, 09:05 PM
Regarding Birchlore Rangers, the main reason I started testing them was because I wanted a way to get white mana while under a Moon effect (so I could play Absolute Law and more importantly, Mirror Entity).

I found that, as Crz87 saw, that they also have pretty good synergy with cards like the Quirion Ranger (since you usually play it and it sits around after you untap a Priest with it, now it generates 1/2 mana for you as well) and tokens generated by Imperious Perfects. Using that mana to jumpstart a large Priest activation can be huge.

I know Di has taken Mirror Entity out, but I've liked it a lot still since it gives you just another way to win. I haven't been a fan of Packmaster myself since every time I've drawn it, I always want to pitch it to Survival, but still looks decent on paper to me.

I'm tempted to put it back in just because I think it'd be hilarious to have a deck with so many strong win conditions (Lord beatdown, NO/Progenitus, Mirror Entity, Packmaster).

Regarding Timberwatch, I've played it before in Elf decks in the past and my issue is similar to many that others have stated above (it only pumps one guy, gives you the tendancy to overextend yourself). Another bonus that I've seen quite often to the Mirror Entity over the Timberwatch elf that I think is also overlooked is that if you don't have an active Anger in the graveyard, Mirror Entity can come down and still pump your guys. Timberwatch takes you a turn to get going if you don't give him haste.

Also, numerically if you look at Mirror Entity vs Timberwatch, Mirror Entity+Priest is so sick compared to Timberwatch + Priest.

With Timberwatch, you give one creature +1/+1 per Elf in play. So say you have 4 Elves, you're giving a +4/+4.

With Mirror Entity, Priest, and say a total of 4 Elves in play, you're giving usually +3/+3 per elf for really a net of +12/+12. The multiplier gets even sicker when you dump mana from lands in there, etc.

Another nice bonus is that against the red sweepers, Mirror Entity can actually keep your entire board alive, while Timberwatch really can only protect one (assuming no untapping shenanigans).

Radiant
03-19-2009, 06:24 PM
Afterwards, I was still pleased, but decided the list needs some changes. The 18th land will be going into the deck somewhere, but I'm not sure where. I also will be adding Masticore into either the main or sideboard. I was craving removal all day, and that's the best for a green deck.

So what were the changes you wanted to make before that Timberwatch-discussion ?

@Esper3k:
What did you cut to fit in Birchlore Rangers?
I found it extremely difficult to fit them in, as I didn't want to cut any mana elves or other creatures as I really like them all in there.

The only thing I can imagine is the lone Viridian Zealot, as it won't get through the counterwall/balance and is useless against Humility.

Esper3k
03-20-2009, 06:54 PM
So what were the changes you wanted to make before that Timberwatch-discussion ?

@Esper3k:
What did you cut to fit in Birchlore Rangers?
I found it extremely difficult to fit them in, as I didn't want to cut any mana elves or other creatures as I really like them all in there.

The only thing I can imagine is the lone Viridian Zealot, as it won't get through the counterwall/balance and is useless against Humility.

This is the build I'm currently fiddling around with:

Wooded Foothills 3
Windswept Heath 3
Savannah 3
Taiga 2
Forest 5

Llanowar Elves 4
Fyndhorn Elves 3
Imperious Perfect 4
Elvish Champion 4
Priest of Titania 4
Sylvan Messenger 1
Quirion Ranger 2
Mirror Entity 2
Elvish Spirit Guide 4
Anger 1
Thornweald Archer 1
Viridian Zealot 1
Birchlore Rangers 1
Progenitus 1
Wren's Run Packmaster 1
Squee, Goblin Nabob 1
Wirewood Symbiote 1
Survival of the Fittest 4
Natural Order 4

Sorry for the posting format, I posted from MWS.

I pretty much call this my "greedy" version. I'm running NO/Progenitus, Mirror Entity (and 1 Symbiote so I can go infinite if I need to), Squee (in case I stall out), and Packmaster.

Again, I haven't been really happy with the Packmaster. My problem with it is that if I have a bunch of mana, I'm going to probably just go for the Entity finish.

Anyone have any thoughts on that?

Atwa
03-20-2009, 07:46 PM
In my early version of the deck, I played 2 Entity, 1 Packmaster. Now I've also moved to NO, you would cut one of those 3 since you already have an alternative way to win.

I'm testing Di's GP list and the list feels pretty optimal. I can understand your feelings of needing Entity, but I've been pretty happy without it.

I would at least keep in the Packmaster and cut an Entity. Seeing you don't play Vanquisher nor Tarmogoyf, you really want some answers to fat opposing creatures (Goyf, Dreadnought, Countryside Crusher, etc) besides the lone Thornweald.

I would even go as far as:
- 1 Mirror Entity
- 1 Birchlore Rangers
+ 2 Vanquisher

When cutting an Entity, you would pretty much lose the need for the Rangers. You want to maximise the amount of green creatures you play for NO. Also, Entity sucks under any Engineered Plague, where Packmaster is pretty decent.

Note that I haven't tested with Rangers yet, but although the idea of it seems pretty decent in theorie, I believe it's too weak to play it over Vanquishers.

EDIT: Also, Timberwatch sucks! I've tested it in Survival Elves and it does nothing for this deck. Hell, around Onslaught block I build a casual elves deck with Messengers, Priests, Wellwishers, and all sort of other goodies and even in that deck it sucked, and that was before the good cards like Vanquisher and Perfect were printed.

bigbear102
03-21-2009, 05:48 PM
Again, I haven't been really happy with the Packmaster. My problem with it is that if I have a bunch of mana, I'm going to probably just go for the Entity finish.

Anyone have any thoughts on that?

Packmaster was put in because Entity was taken out. It is also a secondary NO target in case you have Progenitus in your hand. It really does not make much sense to run both, and I can understand completely why you don't like him. If you cut the Entity, then he is awesome, if not, then he's just a 5/5 dork most of the time, because you will go crazy with Entity.

I played Di's version without Entity and with NO and Packmaster at Chicago, but have been testing some other versions lately.

I really want some form of removal in this deck, and it's looking like Masticore would be the best because of Priest. Any ideas?

Esper3k
03-21-2009, 10:37 PM
Packmaster was put in because Entity was taken out. It is also a secondary NO target in case you have Progenitus in your hand. It really does not make much sense to run both, and I can understand completely why you don't like him. If you cut the Entity, then he is awesome, if not, then he's just a 5/5 dork most of the time, because you will go crazy with Entity.

I played Di's version without Entity and with NO and Packmaster at Chicago, but have been testing some other versions lately.

I really want some form of removal in this deck, and it's looking like Masticore would be the best because of Priest. Any ideas?

If you're running the white splash, there's always Swords or you could run a few red removal spells since we're running Taigas anyways.

I actually think if you're going to do removal, red would probably be the best way to go anyways since if you're under a Magus, you can always pop him and reactivate your duals/fetches (if you don't have any basic forests out).

I haven't really found lack of removal to be a problem though.

For me, my experience so far is that you absolutely just die to combo :)

Even post board, combo seems to be a really rough matchup.

mugs
03-21-2009, 11:30 PM
I really want some form of removal in this deck, and it's looking like Masticore would be the best because of Priest. Any ideas?

I run 3 Thornscape Battlemages main deck - Direct damage and/or Artifact removal in an easy elf friendly package - paired with Wirewood Symbiote or Quirion Ranger just make it better.

GGoober
03-22-2009, 02:03 AM
So today was a little EPIC fail Elf Survival for me. I think I played fairly well, and made the right plays playing against the only blue control (Painter Servant deck) by baiting key spells and landing an Angry Progenitus in play.

My list was:
Lands
5 Forest
3 Taiga
3 Savannah
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath

Creatures
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Priest of Titania
4 Elvish Champion
4 Imperious Perfect
2 Mirror Entity
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Sylvan Messenger
1 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Squee
1 Progenitus
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
1 Anger

Win/combo condition
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Natural Order


Matchup one: Against Bryan ANT with Burning Wish (Good deck, best ANT deck against a non-blue metagame. Burning Wish makes it more resilient to moon/3sphere hate as you can wish for Shattering spree)

Game1: I joked to Bryan how I would lose the first game if he went first since Elf Survival just shits to combo. We drawed on the first die roll, then he beat the second roll by 1 point to go first.

He drew into some crap and comboed out on turn 3 with Ad Nauseam. My hand meanwhile was nutty. I played Llanowar turn 1 and Survival turn 2, pitching for anger EOT. My hand at the moment is Natural Order with 1 Land and a couple of creatures. I would have had an angry Progenitus out on Turn 3, dropping his life low for ANT, and Bryan proceeds to Duress on his Turn 3 and grab my Natural Order.

Sad face. I chained into Priests and 1 Mirror Entity but Turn 3 wasn't enough to kill him, and he went off with ANT and tendrilled me. He would have lost next turn. Most importantly, he would have lost if he didn't Duress NO since he would be too low to Ad Nauseam.

Game 2: I sided out Elvish Champions and the slower stuff and boarded in 1 Magus of the Moon, 2 Choke, 4 Thorn, (didn't acquire Teeg since I last minute decided to play this deck). I mulled down to 5 (first hand was godly good against him, but I only had 1 land, no mana elf and 2 Thorns). I decided not to risk that hand. My 5 land hand was: 2 Forest, 1 Llanowar Elf, 1 Thorn, 1 Natural Order. Great hand for a 5-land hand against him if I land Thorn on turn 2.

I went first with mana elf. Expectedly he duressed me out, and comboed off on his next turn after I land a Priest (could natural order for next turn and give him only 2 turns). Had the Thorn resolved, it would be game for him since I would buy at least 2 turns, one of which Progenitus would drop his life to 10, making it very difficult for him to go off.

Notes: I did not lose to ANT. I lost to Duress. The MU is bad, but I had a good chance, and would had won both games if not for Duress. But then again, first game Bryan got a slow turn 3 undisrupted win for ANT.

Matchup 2: Blue/Red Painter Servant (the storeowner's first Legacy deck. Not too great, but I helped him improve it, so I know his deck inside out)

Game 1: I won the die roll, kept a hand of 1 Llanowar Elf, 1 Forest, 1 Fetch, 1 Survival, 1 Priests, 1 Quirion Ranger, 1 Natural Order. Beautiful. I played elf and passed. He ponders off Seat of Synod and passes. I played Priest baiting a FOW, he resolves. It's good against him anyway since I know how his deck works and resolving priests early is a good thing to have mana to combo out with Survival. He got some nutty draw and lands Painter and Grindstone off tomb. I topdeck Zealot. Played Survival which he FOWed, and I landed Zealot and activated with Priest + Ranger, killing Painter. I then resolved Natural Order and beat his face, although I was 1 damage short while he played another Painter and grinded me away.

Dang it

Game 2: Boarded out Elvish Champions and in goes 1 Grip, 1 Shaman, 2 Choke. I would have had more grips, but like I said, I decided to play this deck last minute.

He went first and pondered. I resolved first turn Survival off ESG and another ESG that paid for Daze. Yaay! The next few turns involving me setting up an angry army and beating him with a couple of Elves.

Game 3: Once again, I won, Natural Order was involved. This match was a little harder since he had pressure with Servant and Grindstone. I managed to get some hate and killed 2 Servants in the process:

Notes: Progenitus actually stops grindstone and be the sole card left in your library, but you'll draw into him and have another turn left to beat your opponent


Matchup 3: Monoblack aggro
Game 1: I've played against my opponent before. Dan has no chance against this deck game 1, but seriously, Duress hits me all the time on Turn 1 that I never get Natural Order + Survival. I basically beat him down with a lame T2 deck with Elvish lords.

Game 2: He boarded in Plagues. I regretted playing this deck simply because I know he played Plagues. I should have played Landstill today. Esper3k mentioned to me Plague shouldn't be a problem since you have Lords. That's true, but Dan was running an unconventional list with so much creature hate. And he has smothers against the Lords. I managed to get his life down to 10 by Elf beats. Once again he Duressed my Natural Order AND Survival on turns 1 and 2. After which he mutilates, killing my board, and lands Plague. I needed a Lord in order to play through plague, but even then, my creatures were 1/1. Viridian Zealot was a dead draw, and I never got to see Natural Order or Survival to get my way out.

Game 3: He got the nuts: Turn 1 Duress, Hymn. Taking out first Natural Order, followed by 2 lands. I had a land and elf, and next turn, he lands bob and starts the nuts. I eventually lost due to a combination of plagues and mutilates.

Notes: Black discard just sucks unless you quickly land Survival/Natural Order. In either games I played. I could not land Survival turn 1 due to no ESG. This shows how crucial Turn 1 2cc plays are, and how ESG is essential in this deck. I would never run less than 4. Overall, the deck did well, but not well in my meta full of Ritual+Discard We had: 1Eva Green, 2 Monoblack discard and ANT with Duress. 4 Decks with MD Duress oh man, in a 8-played tourney. Seriously Duress is MVP against Elf Survival if we don't land Survival. We simply become some stupid T2 Elf Aggro deck. I'm annoyed today with the MU. The deck has good potential, but the MUs I had were terrible, especially the luck I had against ANT and Black Discard. I didn't lose to the decks. I lost to Duress. I would have a fine chance otherwise.

Esper3k
03-22-2009, 11:26 AM
Yeah in my testing, the matchup against Combo is really really bad game 1. Game 2, you get a little better since you have Teeg and the Thorns to bring in.

Against Eva Green, it seems to me that whoever goes first wins, so that initial die roll is so important. I can't see the matchup against Mono Black Discard is that terribly different. I was playing Dragon Stompy, which was a pretty good choice against Dan's deck since Chalice for 1 = gg.

It sounded like to me if you had had time to get together a better sideboard, you could've done better (had more Grips, Teeg). In the matchup against Mono Black Discard, Grips can be really good to get rid of Plagues, Racks, etc.

Radiant
03-22-2009, 02:06 PM
As I stated before I do not like Viridian Zealot.
The only good thing about it is that it is powered up by our lords.

I now run Harmonic Sliver instead, which I really like much better.
It has a CC of 3, which gets around Counterbalance most of the time and it's not affected by Engineered Plague (set to 'Elf'), which is a huge point.

We already splash white, so why not play Harmonic Sliver instead.
Usually you would survival both only when needed so the + power Zealot gets by the lords is not that relevant, as you usually have better creatures at hand.

What makes the Sliver really better is, that it is not an Elf, so you won't need the lords to kill an Engineered Plague in play, which makes your whole gameplan very vulnerable.
And since the Sylvan Messenger got kicked from the deck or is played as a 1-off, you don't need a that high elf-count.

What do you think?

GGoober
03-22-2009, 02:58 PM
@Esper3k. That was the problem: incomplete sideboard. I only had 1 grip, 4 Thorns, 1 Magus of the Moon, no Teegs. Terrible. But I'm getting myself some grips for $4 a playset and will see how it goes. Even with Teegs, ANT still seems hard since you have to ideally drop turn 1 Survival, and get Teeg online by second turn or lose slowly, unless you have Thorn backup. Thorn is the key card in winning against ANT but just 4 Thorn usually isn't enough. The discard matchup wasn't bad at all and I'm annoyed because it wasn't supposed to be a bad matchup but I was extremely unlucky with Duress hitting both key cards (NO Survival) in all 3 games against Monoblack discard. Not to mention Dan ran way too much creature removal for a typical Discard deck. I agree if I had the Grips, it would have been much better. The matchup gets bad if they kill your key creatures and discard Survival/NO, then we just become a lame T2 Elf deck. Chances are you should be luckier, and they shouldn't be that lucky, but Dan was extremely lucky with Turn 1 Ritual on all 3 plays.

I dislike Zealot, in the NO builds. And Radiant's right. Harmonic Sliver hits CB and dodges CB, Chalice@2, and avoids Plague if we don't have an online lord. Without Messenger, the Elf Synergy is no longer that important.

Think about it this way: Zealot doesn't care about synergy anyway. Why? You solely kill him to get rid of troublesome enchantment/artifacts. Harmonic Sliver actually sticks to beat, not to mention Mirror Entity converts it to an Elf and gets some Synergy. Overall, Zealot dies to CB, Plague, Stifle, and requires 4 mana. Harmonic Sliver dies to CB (less often), Stifle, and requires 3 mana. I think I'm running Harmonic Sliver instead.

Esper3k
03-22-2009, 07:21 PM
You know, looking through creatures that do the "destroy target artifact or enchantment", Harmonic Sliver is looking better and better over the Zealot, especially with less focus on the Sylvan Messengers.

I'll give it a try :)

@crz87: I think Gaddock is more important to stick than Thorns against ANT. They usually just can't go off with him in play. It's possible for them to go off with a Thorn in play. However, he's harder to stick than a Thorn unless you're boarding in like 4 of him (which could be a consideration). Thorn is also more generally useful for the deck than Teeg is (Teeg shuts off Natural Order).

sauce
03-22-2009, 07:41 PM
You know, looking through creatures that do the "destroy target artifact or enchantment", Harmonic Sliver is looking better and better over the Zealot, especially with less focus on the Sylvan Messengers.

I'll give it a try :)

@crz87: I think Gaddock is more important to stick than Thorns against ANT. They usually just can't go off with him in play. It's possible for them to go off with a Thorn in play. However, he's harder to stick than a Thorn unless you're boarding in like 4 of him (which could be a consideration). Thorn is also more generally useful for the deck than Teeg is (Teeg shuts off Natural Order).

good ANT decks pack Slaughter Pact + Spell Snare in the board, so hate in form of 2 drop is hard to keep on the table/to resolve.
also, most lists pack 1 rushing river main.
this is why i think black splash is stronger than white splash, black green red.

playing duress/cabal therapy mix from the board is very strong.

thoughts?

Atwa
03-22-2009, 09:04 PM
good ANT decks pack Slaughter Pact + Spell Snare in the board, so hate in form of 2 drop is hard to keep on the table/to resolve.
also, most lists pack 1 rushing river main.
this is why i think black splash is stronger than white splash, black green red.

playing duress/cabal therapy mix from the board is very strong.

thoughts?

I do like the idea, however I'd rather keep my sideboard against AggroLoam, Goblins, Burn and Slight in the form of Absolute Law than cutting it for a match up so bad, you won't beat it 50% for the time even with the black splash.

A turn 1 Teeg or Thorn is too good to pass. When you want discard to make a difference, you'll need to side in at least 7 spells en even then you won't be guaranteed to swing the matchup enough to make it favorable.

I'll keep on playing with my Thorns, which are actually usefull against other decks (like burn). I won't dedicate half my board and bastardize my deck to make a lost cause a little better. I'd rather make the close matches a little better beatable.

Esper3k
03-22-2009, 09:55 PM
Yeah, I like the white splash a lot especially because I like Mirror Entity maindeck and Absolute Law/Gaddock Teeg in the board.

I've just resigned myself to losing to ANT when I hit it, heh.

sauce
03-23-2009, 12:45 AM
wouldnt a hurricane be just as good as mirror entity if you already can go infinite mana pretty much? so teeg is good, but i think you can play thorn of amethyst + pyrostatic pillar?

put down an elf and pyrostatic pillar them out of the game.

Atwa
03-23-2009, 01:43 AM
wouldnt a hurricane be just as good as mirror entity if you already can go infinite mana pretty much?
I actually played 2x Hurricane in my casual elves deck. I like it pretty much, although it get's so much better with Wellwisher, Seeker of Skybreak and Wirewood Lodge, all cards this deck doesn't play.


So teeg is good, but i think you can play thorn of amethyst + pyrostatic pillar?
put down an elf and pyrostatic pillar them out of the game.
So your plan is slowing yourself down a lot while they shape a decent hand and when ready to combo out, bounce the Pillar and win from there? Or play 5 spells, tendrils, play another 2 spells and Tendrils again? If you are playing a few elves of your own, your opponent won't even have to play 9 spells before playing Tendrils.

I'd rather play only Thorn and race them to death.

Let's all face it, combo is a matchup we are only going to win with luck. You can board in any 8 cards and you still won't make the matchup 50/50. The only thing decent to board against them are Thorns, which are also pretty decent against other decks like Burn and even Threshold and Orim's Chant (which is pretty narrow).

Plans like discard or Pillar are only going to weaken your board against matchups which are about even or slightly unfavourable. The only combo hate I am ever going to run in the side are Teeg and Thorns, and maybe in the right meta a Magus of the Moon. And I only run those because they are also usefull against other decks. Dedicating sideboard slots purely for combo is a waste of space, since it won't win you the game. Modern combo is resilient enough to win through the few cards we can board in.

I'd rather have the space to make sure I win against the rest of the field.

Esper3k
03-23-2009, 11:22 AM
wouldnt a hurricane be just as good as mirror entity if you already can go infinite mana pretty much? so teeg is good, but i think you can play thorn of amethyst + pyrostatic pillar?

put down an elf and pyrostatic pillar them out of the game.

For me, sometimes I'm actually lower on life than my opponent and Mirror Entity comes down to win the game that turn. Also, without Mirror Entity, you can't actually go infinite with the Symbiote (you need Mirror Entity to make Symbiote an Elf so he can bounce himself). You can generate a bunch of mana with Priest + Ranger, definitely, though.

I've considered putting Orim's Chant in my sideboards since there's quite a bit of Dark Ritual based decks around in my meta (Ritual + Discard, ANT). I find it hilarious when they Ritual, then you Chant in response :)

HdH_Cthulhu
03-24-2009, 07:36 AM
I've considered putting Orim's Chant in my sideboards since there's quite a bit of Dark Ritual based decks around in my meta (Ritual + Discard, ANT). I find it hilarious when they Ritual, then you Chant in response :)

Then you have just countered Ritual and you buyed a turn. Sure not bad, but whene you dont kill them till their next turn they could go off again. Also soon they dont even mana burn.

The best use of Chant you will get whene they bounce your Thorn/Chalice then you chant them and play your hate again. But that happens very rarly...

Media314r8
03-24-2009, 08:09 AM
The best use of Chant you will get when they bounce your Thorn/Chalice then you chant them and play your hate again. But that happens very rarly...

I would say the best use of chant is when they don't duress/chant you as they only expect permanent/bears hate from a creature deck, and you can chant them when they IT (retaining priority to pop LED) that seems like a swell time to chant.

/sarcasm

I think teeg and chant are the best options the deck has against combo, which is unfortunate, but the goblins 'glass cannon' approach may be the best option.

Elf_Ascetic
03-24-2009, 08:11 AM
Maybe a little late, but I'd like to adres crz87's report. In the Paintermatchup, you're going for a Progenitus. Why? With Progenitus in your deck, you CANNOT lose to grinding. I think it was more wise to bait FoW with the Order, eat his artifact with the Zealot, and play survival. With survival in play, and progenitus NOT in play, you always have one card left in your library. If he didn't draw the artifact, you could have fetched a champion or entity or something. Am I missing something, or do you have to revise your quote?


made the right plays playing against the only blue control (Painter Servant deck) by baiting key spells and landing an Angry Progenitus in play.

Esper3k
03-24-2009, 09:19 AM
Yeah against ANT, I'd probably let them build up some spells before I Chant them.

@Elf_Ascetic: I agree with you on this one - against decks that win through grinding, Survival + Progenitus means you don't immediately die. However, you're unfortunately still left with no more cards to draw, so hopefully you still have enough on the board/in hand to win. What's even nicer about Progenitus is that since his ability is a replacement effect, there's no gap for them to screw with your graveyard (Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Progenitus, etc.).

georgjorge
03-24-2009, 10:14 AM
Survival + Progenitus means you NEVER die to decking because you can use Survival to shuffle it back every turn (you don't HAVE to fetch out a creature when you activate Survival).

Esper3k
03-24-2009, 11:37 AM
Yes, I meant you don't immediately die because while you won't die to decking, you aren't going to be drawing any more cards either for the rest of the game. So, you have to win based off of what you have on board and what you have in hand. If you can't, you're probably in for a slow and painful death.

sauce
03-24-2009, 12:16 PM
you can lose to grindstone even w/ progenitus. his trigger goes on the stack, but the grindstone has to finish resolving, once grindstone grinded away your library they can pop tormod's crypt/relic in response to progenitus trigger. then all you get left is progenitus in your library, draw him next turn and lose the turn after.

Nightmare
03-24-2009, 12:22 PM
you can lose to grindstone even w/ progenitus. his trigger goes on the stack, but the grindstone has to finish resolving, once grindstone grinded away your library they can pop tormod's crypt/relic in response to progenitus trigger. then all you get left is progenitus in your library, draw him next turn and lose the turn after.

Progenitus has no trigger. It's a replacement effect. The milling happens, and then Progs is the last card left in your library, since the "mill two" can't be satisfied.

If you run two of them, the game is a draw due to an unbound loop.

Esper3k
03-24-2009, 12:37 PM
you can lose to grindstone even w/ progenitus. his trigger goes on the stack, but the grindstone has to finish resolving, once grindstone grinded away your library they can pop tormod's crypt/relic in response to progenitus trigger. then all you get left is progenitus in your library, draw him next turn and lose the turn after.

Yes, as Nightmare stated, Progenitus' ability is actually a replacement ability, not a triggered ability (unlike Gaea's Blessing).

With Gaea's Blessing, they can indeed Crypt/Relic you while the Blessing trigger is on the stack and it would actually remove the Blessing as well.

Since Progenitus' ability is a replacement effect, nothing ever goes on the stack. His ability replaces the "put into the graveyard" and instead, he's shuffled back into your library.

With Survival in play, you can just keep Survivaling Progenitus back into your library, keeping you alive indefinitely, but again you still need to win the game off of what you have left in play and in your hand.

thefreakaccident
03-24-2009, 01:08 PM
Progenitus has no trigger. It's a replacement effect. The milling happens, and then Progs is the last card left in your library, since the "mill two" can't be satisfied.

If you run two of them, the game is a draw due to an unbound loop.

That would be hilarious to pull against a grindstone player... oh, you just gave me the 1-0-1 victory b/c you assembled your combo game 2 :cry: ...

Thanks for the match :tongue: .

Elf_Ascetic
03-24-2009, 01:17 PM
The score is 1-0-1, and you have to play until someone scores the 2-x (or 'till time). I think forcing your opponent to actually perform endless millings is stalling. You can come to ridicilous scores like 2-1-12 or something.

Anyway, back to the elves.

GGoober
03-24-2009, 04:34 PM
dont forget that in builds with Squee, you get 2 cards back per turn :D

adrieng
03-25-2009, 07:20 AM
Has anyone tryed vexing shusher in the maindeck ?
It seems to me it makes sure you resolve survival / natural order what makes the deck win. I am trying them as a two off maindeck. The deck has a lot of mana so it can easily pay one more.

Counterbalances decks are not as easy as it seems/claimed. Decks like nassif's build can be hard sometimes if you don't have 2 or more bombs.

Shusher helps a lot there.

Others problematic matchups are red/threshold which are answered with goyf+witness in sb.

Standstill with humility is also hard there I have witness+grip which is not always enough in sb.

Choke is not so good cause a lot of decks are playing trygon predator/grip and standstill can ignore it with basic plain/scrubland then EE it away or still cast humility/wrath/sword.

Teumie
04-03-2009, 03:26 PM
I played this deck at a local tourney (52 ppl) and ended up 17 or 18.
I'm not gonna write a whole report, just the main things:
my deck was the list that DI played at chicago, minus 2 vanquishers + 1 mirror entity and 1 messenger
SB was same except that i played thorn of amethyst instead of relic/graveyard hate.

my wins:
- RGB ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh (first game was long after he started off with confidant, crusher and tarmogoyf in play ...)
- 43 lands (actually it was 32 lands, but do not know the name, more on this matchup later, cause i also lost to it)
- hmmm, others i do not remember immediately, but the most interesting things are the losses:

my losses (and draw):
- 43 lands (again, it was 32 lands) i gave up the first match after he had glacial chasm continually coming in play and killing of my creatures with barb ring ... game 2 i raced him, game 3 we went in time and drawed ... (it was one of the most boring matches I ever played ... if it wasn't for one point, i would have dropped)
in this matchup, progenitus was super, because untargetable by maze of ith ... BUT, glacial chasm is hell, i had no way to remove it or do anything about it (that is where relic or other graveyard comes in handy, but i was lacking it ;-))
- enchantress: game 1 i got him on 2, but he got his protection enchantment and could not take any more damage ... game 2 was even worse, turn 3 he dropped a moat ... i only got krosan grip after he already had his other protection enchantment and he went for the win
I am not sure what to do against this deck (besides racing), i think in this case ethersworn canonist would be superb
- survival deck with noble hierarch and spellstutter sprite (amongst others) game 1 i was mana screwed he drew noble and survival and killed me with a single spellstutter sprite (and 3 hierarchs) game 2 was better, but i did not go fast enough and he killed me with a spellstutter sprite and 4 hierarchs

I think the last one, I should have won if I had mulled more agressively, enchantress was almost an auto loss and the 43 land deck is really hard without graveyard hate.
In the whole tourney, i did not use my thorns (did not see any combo) and will switch them for relic (or other graveyard hate)
choke did not do what it is supposed to do, it can be GG, but you have to cast it at the right moment and mostly blue players will anticipate on it post side or just play more green (with noble hierarch), maybe i will drop the chokes and replace them with canonists, but not sure yet.

Sorry for the unstructured post ;-)

lorddotm
04-11-2009, 03:26 AM
why doesnt anyone seem to use the glimpse version?

Atwa
04-11-2009, 05:40 AM
why doesnt anyone seem to use the glimpse version?

I'm not all that sure. I do know cards like Chalice, Counterbalance and general (free) couterspells hose this deck.

For me personally, I've tested the Glimpse version and didn't like it. I play this deck mainly because playing a decent deck in which you can beat down with elves is way too tempting.

lorddotm
04-11-2009, 12:39 PM
I'm not all that sure. I do know cards like Chalice, Counterbalance and general (free) couterspells hose this deck.

For me personally, I've tested the Glimpse version and didn't like it. I play this deck mainly because playing a decent deck in which you can beat down with elves is way too tempting.

The Glinpse deck seems better against anything that's not Blue, and against Blue decks it can go aggro with Natural Order into Regal Force or Progenitus, and then 4 Jittes out of the board. Survival just seems weaker and less resiliant than Glimpse, maybe that's just me though. I tested with both lists and I was always a lit more afraid of Glimpse than Survival (I was piloting Fish). Glimpse seems to have an easier time swarming the board, something a Blue deck cannot handle at all.

Waikiki
04-11-2009, 01:15 PM
then why do we see survival T8 and glimpse not?

lorddotm
04-11-2009, 02:19 PM
then why do we see survival T8 and glimpse not?

Mostly cause I've never seen anyone play Glimpse....

There is no reason to be hostile, I am only commenting on something I've noticed, if you don't agree that's cool, but that doesn't mean that you get to be an ass.

Esper3k
04-11-2009, 04:38 PM
From looking at the decks on Deckcheck that play Glimpse, but not Survival, here's my impression:

Glimpse seems like it's a little faster, but more succeptible to hate (Chalices, Red Sweepers) since it runs more of the 1 drop Elves and doesn't run the 8x Lords that Survival Elves does.

Also, I see many mono green versions, which prevent you from using Mirror Entity or more importantly Gaddock Teeg/Absolute Law in the board.

To me, Survival of the Fittest is actually less weak and inconsistant. If you land a Survival, you can pretty much mine for whatever you want now. If you find yourself in an attrition war, the card advantage from Squee can win the game for you.

The Survival Elves variant also can run the Natural Order/Progenitus Combo, which from my experience, can steal a lot of Game 1's.

Just my observations and keep in mind, I really like the Survival version, myself. Being able to tutor up whatever combo/toolbox piece I might need is a real selling point for me.

emidln
04-13-2009, 03:38 PM
I played this list at a small local tourney last weekend (trying to expand my horizons in terms of decks I'm comfortable playing) losing a single match all day. I got the list from thebirdman (who I assume got it from Di) and didn't change the maindeck a whole lot (but a newer sb was used).

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Natural Order
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
2 Quirion Ranger
4 Priest of Titania
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Elvish Champion
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Wren's Run Vanquisher
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Anger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Progenitus
2 Taiga
2 Savannah
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
6 Forest

SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Vexing Shusher
SB: 3 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 4 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Glowrider
SB: 1 Caller of the Claw

relevant changes (not counting the sb anti-combo stuff):

main: -1 WRV, +1 Gaddock Teeg
sb: -3 choke, -1 kgrip, -1 empyrial archeangel, +3 jitte, +1 shusher

I played against Merfolk (twice), some sort of ritual combo, Faerie Stompy, Thrash, and CB Thresh with the loss coming in three games to Thrash after a lot of burn, counters, and some timely firespouts.

I expected quite a bit of Ritual Combo in the form of TES or ANT to show up given that I was loaning out a storm deck and knew other storm players in the area. As such, I cut a WRV for a maindeck Gaddock Teeg. I managed to Natural Order into it turn 2 against storm and managed to steal the matchup 2-0.

The Jittes replaced Chokes because I believed that I'd rather just be killing merfolk than making them rely on vial. I knew a lot of merfolk and other aggro was showing up, and jitte seemed like it would be just another bomb that Thresh/Merfolk/etc have to kill to beat me (the same as choke e0xcept that it actually puts them out of the game, not merely acting as a speedbump). I haven't seen a whole lot of discussion on Jitte, and while I don't know that Choke is the card that it wants to replace, the Jittes were absurd in the board through the event and in testing lead up to the event. Choke might be more relevant in metagames where big mana CB decks (like Nassif.dec) and Landstill exist, but it seemed that it's not necessary in my metagame.

The Shusher was probably a mistake. I like the idea of Shusher, and it actually worked really well the one time I found it, but replacing Krosan Grip was a huge problem. After playing some more games, especially the tournament games, I was often wishing for the ability to more easily find that second kgrip. Maybe it should be a 2-of replacing something else (maybe I'm devoting too much room to the combo matchup).

I cut the Angel from the board because she never really seemed to do anything. If Progenitus wasn't going to win me the game, Imperious Perfect making a million dudes, or Elvish Champion to make my guys unblockable was generally good enough to win. I don't think the Angel's necessary.

Elf_Ascetic
04-14-2009, 07:39 AM
Nice mini-report, emidnl.

How is Tarmogoyf in this deck? I really dislike the antisynergy with the rest of the deck, but I guess there are some strong points. My list atm:

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Natural Order
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Quirion Ranger
2 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Priest of Titania
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Elvish Champion
1 Wren's Run Vanquisher
1 Harmonic Sliver (instead of Viridian Zealot)
1 Anger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Mirror Entity
1 Wood Elves
1 Progenitus
3 Taiga
3 Savannah
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
5 Forest

Changes:
-4 Tarmogoyf
-1 Gaddock Teeg/WRV
-1 WRV
-1 Forest
+1 Savannah
+1 Taiga
+1 Mirror Entity
+2 Wirewood Symbiote
+1 Q Ranger
+1 Wood Elves

In the little testing I did, I comboed out via Mirror Entity one third of the time, therefor earning its place.

Esper3k
04-14-2009, 09:37 AM
Here's my list (very similar to Elf_Ascetic's list) I've been playing. I won a 14 man tournament on Sunday with it, going 5-1.

4 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Elvish Champion
4 Priest of Titania
2 Quirion Ranger
1 Sylvan Messenger
2 Mirror Entity
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Anger
1 Thornweald Archer
1 Birchlore Rangers
1 Progenitus
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
2 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Harmonic Sliver
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Natural Order
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Savannah
2 Taiga
5 Forest

My Squee didn't come in the mail yet and noone had one I could borrow, so I was playing +1 Symbiote instead of Squee, but ideally, Squee would be in there. This was actually the first tournament I played where I stalled out a few times and actually wished I had Squee in the deck!

I beat Dragon Stompy, Rg Goblins (they actually outraced my T2 Progenitus one game!), Merfolk, Ubr Painter, UGw Thresh. Lost one match in the Swiss rounds to another Ugw Thresh deck.

I didn't run into any combo, which made me happy since in my experience this deck has a terrible matchup against combo, even with Thorns and Gaddock Teeg in the board.

I really love playing the deck though because of the ability to aggro, combo, fetch whatever answers you need.

Harmonic Sliver (I was testing it instead of Zealot) was great. His 3 CMC makes it harder for CB to hit and since most of the time you're immediately popping your Zealot anyways, Harmonic Sliver actually costs less mana to use, plus nets you a guy. Another bonus my friend pointed out to me is that under Engineered Plague, the Sliver also survives from not being an Elf.

Wren's Run Packmaster and Thornweald Archer would probably be the next to go for me, but I'd probably keep the Archer around if I saw more Tombstalkers. Packmaster has just been unimpressive for me because I'm usually pitching it or just grabbing the Mirror Entity combo instead of it.

The Sylvan Messenger has been meh as well, but I like the 1 of just in case I need immediate card draw shenanigans with Symbiote instead of incremental draw with Squee. He does seem like a win-more card though.

Elf_Ascetic
04-14-2009, 11:09 AM
I disliked Sylvan Messenger because of the low elfcount. Basicly it says: draw 2 Elves, 3 if your lucky, and 1 if not. When I needed more creatures for survival, I couldn't rely on it, like goblins can rely on their ringleader.

Harmonic Sliver is great because it's a sliver, therefor killing Engineered Plague. Zealot cannot do that. It's 3CC for CB is better too.

I used WR-PM several times to give me more (hehe, a zillion more) creatures. I had the Entity - Priest - Symbiote loop but no more creatures to survival away, while he had 6 goblins.

How is Birchlore Rangers? I use Wood Elves, because that one can give me haste as well, but it's a really cluncky card when drawn.

Ever gotten manascrewed with "only" 15 lands?

emidln
04-14-2009, 12:36 PM
Tarmogoyf was really good for me. He helped avoid most of the mass removal that was sent my way, provided a quick survival pseudo-combo (finding 2-3 hasty goyfs was a decent backup plan) that avoided engineered plague, and proved to be an efficient as both a bomb after a countered threat and a large enough threat to act as bait (letting me resolve Natural Order or Survival). I don't think I could consider playing a build of the deck without at least 3 Tarmogoyf in it, and the only reason I'd cut the 4th would be to try out something like WRPackmaster.

Esper3k
04-14-2009, 01:11 PM
I disliked Sylvan Messenger because of the low elfcount. Basicly it says: draw 2 Elves, 3 if your lucky, and 1 if not. When I needed more creatures for survival, I couldn't rely on it, like goblins can rely on their ringleader.

Harmonic Sliver is great because it's a sliver, therefor killing Engineered Plague. Zealot cannot do that. It's 3CC for CB is better too.

I used WR-PM several times to give me more (hehe, a zillion more) creatures. I had the Entity - Priest - Symbiote loop but no more creatures to survival away, while he had 6 goblins.

How is Birchlore Rangers? I use Wood Elves, because that one can give me haste as well, but it's a really cluncky card when drawn.

Ever gotten manascrewed with "only" 15 lands?

When I fought Goblins, although they sometimes had more creatures than me, they were also playing Rg, so I'd just grab a Champion and Forestwalk over.

I play in a meta that sees Moons and Wastelands running around, so I've liked the Birchlore to give me a source of white mana when I'm Savannahless. Also, Birchlore has a bit of nice synergy with Imperious Perfects (make some tokens, tap them for more mana). Wood Elves is nice for the ability to grab a Taiga, but I've really hated that 3 mana cost.

Funny you should mention being mana screwed. I'm running 16 lands, but since I have all those 1 drops (7 mana elves, 2 Quirion Ranger) and 4 ESG, as long as I have 1 land and one of the 1 drop elves (Quirion Ranger gets you 2 mana on turn 2 off of a single land), I actually very rarely have run into mana problems.

The one match I lost involved me mulliganing down to 4 (after seeing no 1 mana elves and I swear I got the same terrible hand twice of seeing Packmaster, Progenitus, Natural Order, Natural Order) with no lands, then next game having to mulligan down to 5.

Other than that game though, I have rarely gotten mana screwed (in fact, I find myself oddly mana flooded more than mana screwed).

evilfred
04-19-2009, 02:42 PM
Hi all! I've recently fall in love with Survival of the Fittest. The synergy it got with elves is incredible. I don't pretend my build is better than the other ones cause there's a lot of them. I got kicked out of the New and Developmental Decks Forum and told to come here.

I've seen a couple version of this deck on deckcheck.net but I really don't like them. So to begin here's my list:

Land (18)
6 x Forest
4 x Taiga
4 x Windswept Heath
4 x Wooded Foothills

Combo (11)
1 x Empyrial Archangel
1 x Progenitus
1 x Norwood Priestess
4 x Natural Order
4 x Survival of the Fittest

Green Creatures (29)
1 x Caller of the Claw
3 x Elvish Champion
4 x Imperious Perfect
4 x Fyndhorn Elves
4 x Llanowar Elves
4 x Priest of Titania
2 x Quirion Ranger
1 x Sylvan Messenger
1 x Wickerbough Elder
1 x Wirewood Symbiote
1 x Wood Elves
3 x Wren's Run Vanquisher

Red Creatures (2)
1 x Anger
1 x Squee, Goblin Nabob

Sideboard (Totally a meta call)
4 x Thorn of Amethyst
3 x Tormod's Crypt
2 x Umezawa's Jitte
4 x Krosan Grip
1 x Vexing Shusher
1 x Magus of the Moon

Natural Order + Progenitus or Empyrial Archangel: Nothing to add here

Norwood Priestess: Backup plan when you're stuck with Progenitus or Empyrial Archangel in your hand. Also work very well if you don't have Natural Order in your hand. Great synergy with the "untap elves" creatures too.
With Survival of the Fittess in play and the Norwood Priestess, it's often only an easy math problem to get Progenitus AND Empyrial Archangel in play in the same turn. I know this seem a little overkill but I'm sure that Natural Order players around here lost a couple games even with a Progenitus in play. This is a good way to stop your opponent dead in it's track.

Now your wondering why I didn't pick Elvish Piper. Well I guest it work. Even with his ability to throw creature at instant speed. The only thing is the cost of his activation. Norwood Priestess got a cc of 2GG and the Piper 3G + G per activation. So I prefer to keep my mana for Survival.

Wickerbough Elder: I prefer this over the Viridian Zealot or Harmonic Sliver because it got a 4/4 body (after his activation). Go over Trinisphere and Chalice easily.

Sylvan Messenger: Only one you say?! Well yeah. I never enjoy to draw 2 copy of it. Sometimes when I need card draw I'll just go fetch it with survival.

Wood Elves: In case they wasteland your Taiga and you got anger in the graveyard. It's a quick and good solution.

Caller of the Claw This is also a metagame call.

Any suggestion are welcomed.

Esper3k
04-20-2009, 04:57 PM
Welcome to the thread, Evilfred.

Do you ever find that you have problems protecting the Norwood Priestess or that she's too slow?

Just curious, but how do you deal with red sweepers/removal since you're not playing white (and can't play Absolute Law in the board)?

I feel the white splash makes the deck overall stronger because it gives you access to Absolute Law/Teeg in the board and Mirror Entity/Harmonic Sliver in the main as well. The Mirror Entity combo gives you just another way to win if you can't Lord or Progenitus your way to victory.

I've been a fan of Harmonic Sliver in testing since he actually costs you less mana than the Zealot. Wickerbough Elder just seems... slow to me? He costs you 3GG to do the same thing as Harmonic Sliver. Sure he's got a bigger body, but have you found that to really be that useful? Whenever I Survival for Harmonic, it's when I want to immediately bust an enchantment/artifact that's giving me problems.

Di
04-20-2009, 05:21 PM
@ Evilfred list

It's a good starting point, but there's some issues I have with it:

Norwood Priestess is cute, but unnecessary. A 4cc 1/1 isn't going to make the cut when it is incredibly situational. If you have Survival, then that play is incredibly win-more. If you don't, then you have to somehow manage to have both Priestess and Progenitus, both singletons, in hand. The odds of that happening are incredibly slim and not worth the slot. However, I will give you the benefit of the doubt that it at least does dodge Counterbalance and allows you to circumvent that, but at that point you're better off just killing it rather than working around it.

The single Sylvan Messenger is very weak too. You run 18 lands, 4 Survival, 4 Natural Order, Squee, Anger, Progenitus, Angel, Symbiote, and Wickerbough Elder. That's 32 cards, more than half of the deck. Even though it's a singleton, it's there as a card advantage engine, but you will almost never be able to get more than 2 elves with it. It's far too inconsistent to really justify running. At that point, you can also cut Wirewood Symbiote as well.

You run 4 Taiga and 8 fetchlands, so you shouldn't ever have an issue finding a red source for Anger, even if they Wasteland the first one. That said, Wood Elves isn't necessary. Unless you're running 3cc+ with needs to find colors, such as needing Savannah to cast Mirror Entity, Wood Elves is slow and a waste of a slot.

I've been unhappy with Viridian Zealot getting hit by Counterbalance so I've looked for other options, including Wickerbough Elder. He's just too slow. It isn't just Counterbalance that's a problem, but other stuff like Dreadnought, Jitte, Pernicious Deed, etc. Elder is too slow to deal with them in a reasonable amount of time, so the best solution is Harmonic Sliver. I really dislike Sliver because of it's reliance on white and weak body, but it's the best card we have to handle stuff.


On the Tarmogoyf issue, it's like a necessary evil. A lot of times when it's in the deck is garbage compared to the rest of my board, but then sometimes it's gold. Then I end up cutting it to improve synergy with the deck, and I run into 100 situations where I need it. It's just a bit difficult to find room for it, but it depends on how you build the deck now. My own list has changed a bit over the last month to adapt to some of the problems I've had. I won't post it right now as it isn't anything concrete, but I can at least mention it's worth having Mastcore in the deck somewhere between the maindeck and sideboard. At Chicago I was really craving a removal card and Wren's Run Vanquisher didn't really accomplish that, and Masticore is exactly the card the deck wants.

Elf_Ascetic
04-20-2009, 06:16 PM
After some testing with and without goyfs, I now play 3 in my deck, sigh...

evilfred
04-21-2009, 10:36 AM
@ Evilfred list

It's a good starting point, but there's some issues I have with it:

Norwood Priestess is cute, but unnecessary. A 4cc 1/1 isn't going to make the cut when it is incredibly situational. If you have Survival, then that play is incredibly win-more. If you don't, then you have to somehow manage to have both Priestess and Progenitus, both singletons, in hand. The odds of that happening are incredibly slim and not worth the slot. However, I will give you the benefit of the doubt that it at least does dodge Counterbalance and allows you to circumvent that, but at that point you're better off just killing it rather than working around it.

I admit that the Norwood Priestess is situational. So here's the pros and cons:
PROS:
- Can't counter creatures played via the Priestess. (Except with Stifle)
- It's the fifth Natural Order that you can fetch with Survival.
- The "Untaping Creatures" allow you to untap it to maximise her potencial.
- When you have Survival in play and the Norwood Priestess the cost to get Progenitus and the Archangel in play is GG plus 2 creatures to be discarded.
- Save you mana to play your other elves.

CONS:
- It's a 1/1 for 2GG
- Run in the deck as a singleton


The single Sylvan Messenger is very weak too. You run 18 lands, 4 Survival, 4 Natural Order, Squee, Anger, Progenitus, Angel, Symbiote, and Wickerbough Elder. That's 32 cards, more than half of the deck. Even though it's a singleton, it's there as a card advantage engine, but you will almost never be able to get more than 2 elves with it. It's far too inconsistent to really justify running. At that point, you can also cut Wirewood Symbiote as well.

You're totally right about the Sylvan Messenger, I'd rather play 3 tarmogoyf instead. The Wirewood Symbiote is too good (to my taste) to be cut out. I'll keep playtesting to see if it's worth it.


You run 4 Taiga and 8 fetchlands, so you shouldn't ever have an issue finding a red source for Anger, even if they Wasteland the first one. That said, Wood Elves isn't necessary. Unless you're running 3cc+ with needs to find colors, such as needing Savannah to cast Mirror Entity, Wood Elves is slow and a waste of a slot.

Done, gone!


I've been unhappy with Viridian Zealot getting hit by Counterbalance so I've looked for other options, including Wickerbough Elder. He's just too slow. It isn't just Counterbalance that's a problem, but other stuff like Dreadnought, Jitte, Pernicious Deed, etc. Elder is too slow to deal with them in a reasonable amount of time, so the best solution is Harmonic Sliver. I really dislike Sliver because of it's reliance on white and weak body, but it's the best card we have to handle stuff.

Harmonic Sliver is better. Your right again.


On the Tarmogoyf issue, it's like a necessary evil. A lot of times when it's in the deck is garbage compared to the rest of my board, but then sometimes it's gold. Then I end up cutting it to improve synergy with the deck, and I run into 100 situations where I need it. It's just a bit difficult to find room for it, but it depends on how you build the deck now. My own list has changed a bit over the last month to adapt to some of the problems I've had. I won't post it right now as it isn't anything concrete, but I can at least mention it's worth having Mastcore in the deck somewhere between the maindeck and sideboard. At Chicago I was really craving a removal card and Wren's Run Vanquisher didn't really accomplish that, and Masticore is exactly the card the deck wants.

I think I'll put the Masticore in the sideboard.

*EDIT*
Yeah, after playtesting Norwood Priestess suck a little. I never end up going for her with survival. I reread the whole tread (most of it since Natural Order was included in the deck) and revamped my deck. ESG and Packmaster are going in. I left the Norwood Priestess discution for posterity.

NEW AND UPDATED LIST 04-23-2009


Lands (18)
2 x Savannah
2 x Taiga
4 x Windswept Heath
6 x Forest
4 x Wooded Foothills

NO Combo (5)
1 x Progenitus
4 x Natural Order

Survival Engine (6)
4 x Survival of the Fittest
1 x Anger
1 x Squee, Goblin Nabob

Other Creatures (6)
1 x Mirror Entity
1 x Harmonic Sliver
1 x Wirewood Symbiote
3 x Tarmogoyf

Elves (25)
4 x Elvish Spirit Guide
3 x Elvish Champion
4 x Fyndhorn Elves
4 x Imperious Perfect
3 x Llanowar Elves
4 x Priest of Titania
2 x Quirion Ranger
1 x Wren's Run Packmaster

Sideboard (15)
2 x Tormod's Crypt
1 x Caller of the Claw
4 x Krosan Grip
3 x Gaddock Teeg
3 x Absolute Law
1 x Masticore
1 x Vexing Shusher

beastman
04-22-2009, 07:31 PM
If your running the version with natural order, and not mirror entity, what do all of you think about symbiote? Is it still a necessary inclusion in the deck even though its not an elf?

troopatroop
04-22-2009, 07:40 PM
If your running the version with natural order, and not mirror entity, what do all of you think about symbiote? Is it still a necessary inclusion in the deck even though its not an elf?

If you're not playing Mirror Entity, Symbiote gets cut, imo.

Di
04-22-2009, 09:06 PM
If your running the version with natural order, and not mirror entity, what do all of you think about symbiote? Is it still a necessary inclusion in the deck even though its not an elf?

The only reasons for Wirewood Symbiote's inclusion is either for Mirror Entity, Sylvan Messenger (and then again, that's really only if you run multiples) and maybe if you're looking to heavily abuse 187 creatures, which we really don't have any to abuse. Otherwise, it's almost strictly inferior to Quirion Ranger. The fact it isn't an elf really hurts when trying to ramp up mana in the early game. The deck has been rising with non-elf cards as of late in order to adapt to hate and other issues, and it's turning into a problem with the deck's synergy and consistency. It's important we still try to maximize the number of elves to take full advantage of Priest and lords, and Symbiote doesn't do enough without another supplemental combo piece to be worth running. If you really insist on running a Symbiote then I think Mirror Entity needs to be included, not only for the sake of the combo, but because Mirror Entity will at least make your other creatures elves and help you create synergy.

Atwa
04-23-2009, 08:12 AM
I'm going to test Qasali Pridemage in my list. Zealot, although an Elf, does a very bad job at it's prime reason to be played (getting rid of Plague), and I hate the fact that with Harmonic Sliver you need to hold back the card until a Plague hit's play.

I know it's the same with Grip, but when a Plague get's rid of your mana elves, I'd rather spend 2 turns with Pridemage then waiting until my 3th landdrop makes playing Sliver possible.

It still need some testing, but at the moment I'm feeling Pridemage is better than both Zealot and Sliver.

EDIT: Wow, this thing also has exalted? I didn't notice that :) Now I definatly want to play Pridemage. Winning you Goyf-wars and stuff is a very good thing. Granted, in a deck like elves you won't use Exalted a lot, but it's nice to have it available for you when you need it.

evilfred
04-23-2009, 08:27 AM
Pounds for Pounds I think Qasali Pridemage is better. A 2/2 body that cost GW instead of a 1/1 for 1GW.

Plus it got Exalted. I'm not sure when we are going to need this (Tarmo war) but it's good to know it's there. The fact that you can wait to use his ability is a plus I think. Holding Mishra's Factory at bay is useful sometime! That's why I liked the Wickerbough Elder.


*EDIT*
One flaw I just noticed, Chalice @ 2 hurt the deck badly and we usually use the Harmonic Sliver against that since it got a converted mana cost of 3. No Dragon Stompy player (unless he's in deep shit) is gonna cast a chalice @ 3. There's Counterbalance, Spell Snare (He's played more and more those days) and Stiffle to name a few card that can easily deal with the Qasali Pridemage.

*EDIT 2*
I updated my list in my previous post.

Di
04-23-2009, 10:08 AM
Qasali Pridemage is amazing and probably the best utility creature of that type. However, I see Counterbalance as a bigger problem than Engineered Plague. Plague can be countered by 8 lords so it isn't as huge of a problem, but Counterbalance can hit everything. At 2cc, Pridemage doesn't handle that or Chalice at 2 while well as Harmonic Sliver does, so I can't really justify running it.

Esper3k
04-23-2009, 07:01 PM
I agree with the assessment that at least for Legacy, Pridemage isn't as good as Harmonic Sliver (although he's far far superior to Viridian Zealot).

The Harmonic's 3 CC actually is a benefit, making it considerably better at getting through CB than the 2CC of Zealot/Pridemage.

Atwa
04-23-2009, 07:15 PM
For some reason counterbalance never seemed that scary. We already play numerous 1 cc creatures which we can easily grow to scary proportions with 8 Lords and a Packmaster, backed up with Order. Not to rule out the Forestwalk Champion grants us against almost every deck playing Counterbalance.

I do however see your point.

I'm going to test it at least and we'll see what happens then.

Di
04-23-2009, 07:37 PM
For some reason counterbalance never seemed that scary. We already play numerous 1 cc creatures which we can easily grow to scary proportions with 8 Lords and a Packmaster, backed up with Order. Not to rule out the Forestwalk Champion grants us against almost every deck playing Counterbalance.

I do however see your point.

I'm going to test it at least and we'll see what happens then.

The issue isn't the fact that we have plenty of lords, Natural Order, and Packmaster to get around Counterbalance; that's true, and very good against it. However, the issue is actually what you mention as an alleged benefit: numerous 1cc creatures. In order to cast all those aforementioned bombs, you need a lot of mana on the table, which comes from those 1-2cc mana guys. If you don't stick a few of them before Counterbalance comes down it is incredibly hard to win through it, as lords have trouble racing Goyfs, and drawing mana guys after CB/top is in play can almost be dead draws given they won't resolve.

Given our curve is rounded gives us game against it, but it's still a huge problem.

beastman
04-27-2009, 11:25 AM
I love this deck so damn much. Now that thats out of the way, I have to bring up some concerns I have noticed lately. The most prominent concern is the severe lack of removal. I'm not sure what there is to do about this, but I wanted to know if anyone had any ideas.
The second concern is combo. I am currently splashing a bit of white for gaddock teeg, and he is really not thrilling me.
what else is there, and what are you guys doing about these problems?

troopatroop
04-27-2009, 11:33 AM
I love this deck so damn much. Now that thats out of the way, I have to bring up some concerns I have noticed lately. The most prominent concern is the severe lack of removal. I'm not sure what there is to do about this, but I wanted to know if anyone had any ideas.
The second concern is combo. I am currently splashing a bit of white for gaddock teeg, and he is really not thrilling me.
what else is there, and what are you guys doing about these problems?

I've been playing Flametongue Kavu at 3x for removal. Wren's Run Vanquisher helps, but not against things that aren't attacking. It's been nice to be able to Survival for removal, but this basically means we can't play Messenger.

beastman
04-27-2009, 11:36 AM
I completely forgot about vanquisher! That guy is amazing. He's like opening a can of goyf-b-gone!

Elf_Ascetic
04-27-2009, 11:38 AM
Why would you want removal? I can't think of a creatures that could be standing in the way between your little green men and your opponent.

I tackled combo with Gaddock Teeg and Ethersworn Canonist on the sideboard, ain't that great but better then nothing.

*EDIT: Who, you guys are fast. I see Goyf is being seen as a probleem. I fail to see why: You have Elvish Champion, and Progenitus that just waves to goyf and hits your opponent in the face. If you're afraid to attack without Forestwalk, I suggest you try Symbiote some more. Just bounce the blocked Elf, untap a creature, play elf, and you're ready to go.. An attacking goyf is with 4 Perfects and some Symbiotes also no problem. Plus 3 Goyfs of your own, of course.

*EDIT #2: Ok, You maybe want to remove Goblin Sharpshooter, SGC or Lackey. You can opt for a single removalcard in your survivaltoolbox (Kavu was named, I think Fire Imp can be taken too), or you can run 3-4 StP.

evilfred
04-27-2009, 11:58 AM
I completely forgot about vanquisher! That guy is amazing. He's like opening a can of goyf-b-gone!

I rather play Wren's Run Packmaster for his ability to pump out Deathtouch creature at will. It's just as easy as to get a Vanquisher with survival and he leave you with open slots in the deck, plus he's a 5/5 for 4 mana.

I also put Masticore in the sideboard for spot removal. She's doing a great job!

Di
04-27-2009, 12:05 PM
Why would you want removal? I can't think of a creatures that could be standing in the way between your little green men and your opponent.


Because other aggro decks still have the ability to race you and potentially out-man you, or often times it isn't in your benefit to play hyper-aggressive because they can hold their own and you need to wait, giving them even more time to find answers. For instance in Chicago I lost to Affinity, a good matchup, because he was able to race me. Granted he had the absolute godhand in game 1 and 3, but I had a very good hand each game and he was still able to kill me. Had I had access to more creature removal, I would've been fine. Goblins can also occasionally be a problem if they're able to have a turn 1 Lackey on the play and be able to Wierding/Fanatic your first creature.

My own removal suite just has Masticore and Wren's Run Vanquisher in the maindeck (and I guess Packmaster applies as well). Masticore is the best card we have because it's capable of killing anything, including a Dreadnought, in this deck. It also completely wipes out other aggro hordes in 1-2 turns. FTK is also a fine choice but I dislike not being able to kill Goyfs and Tombstalkers. Otherwise, the only other options we really are limited to Duplicant, Triskelion, Fire Imp, Goblin Sharpshooter, etc. If it's that big of an issue then you can still add a Bayou and run a Shriekmaw, but I'm wary to add another color into the deck.

Esper3k
04-27-2009, 12:39 PM
A friend of mine and I were discussing creature removal in the deck and we had discussed Intrepid Hero. Has anyone tried this one out? Seems good against Goyfs and Tombstalkers, although easy to kill.

Radiant
04-27-2009, 03:20 PM
Otherwise, the only other options we really are limited to Duplicant, Triskelion, Fire Imp, Goblin Sharpshooter, etc.

Please... before anyone plays Fire Imp, play Thornscape Battlemage. He can destroy Chalice etc too AND is an Elf. (If he could destroy enchantments as well, he would be sooooo much better than Harmonic Sliver)
I'm testing him in place of the Masticore now. Masticore is good, but without Mana-Elves it's not really effective.
Also getting rid of Grim Lavamancer or Dark Confidant isn't that bad.

The reason I put him in, is that the Elf count dropped down rather low recently, which had been a real problem for me.
I'll see how this little guy works out.

Di
04-27-2009, 09:00 PM
I wasn't even aware Thornscape Battlemage was an elf. That's totally awesome. However, your argument stating Masticore is ineffective without mana elves and then following it up with killing Grim Lavamancer and Dark Confident doesn't really make sense as it's only a two-mana requirement. At the worst Masticore is still a 4/4 regenerating body that can take down Goyfs by itself.

beastman
04-27-2009, 09:10 PM
Yeah. The mana is not a problem with this deck, generating upwards of twenty mana a turn by turn 5 isnt unheard of, I just never even thought about masticore. I guess I'll drop down to 2 messengers to squeeze him in.

Radiant
04-28-2009, 09:07 AM
My previous post was written in a hurry, so it is a bit confusing and partially just stupid. ;)

I'm testing the Battlemage now. Thanks to our holy lord 'Oracle 2006/10/01', it boosts the Elf count a little.
That Masticore is potentially a much stronger 'removal' than the Battlemage can ever be, is out of question.

As I said, I'm toying around with the Deck at the moment, to see if the Battlemage is worth to be put in. I really like it's versatility even if I don't have Wirewood Symbiote in the deck, to make use of it more than once.

@beastman: You still play Messengers? They haven't been outstanding lately, so I dropped them completly.

beastman
04-28-2009, 02:19 PM
I like having a more resilient build. I havent had proper tournament experience yet, but I like being able to chain them with survival. they simply allow you to keep playing and cycling more guys and make your army massive.

Atwa
04-28-2009, 02:32 PM
I like having a more resilient build. I havent had proper tournament experience yet, but I like being able to chain them with survival. they simply allow you to keep playing and cycling more guys and make your army massive.

I loved them too in te early builds, however with Goyf, Harmonic/Pridemage, Masticore and Order/Prog in the deck, your Elf count goes way too low for Messenger to be a good source cardadvantage. You also need to make room for Order-Prog and after testing it, cutting Messenger does feel like the right decision.

However, if you play a version without Order, playing Messenger feels like the right choise.

Di
04-28-2009, 05:13 PM
I loved them too in te early builds, however with Goyf, Harmonic/Pridemage, Masticore and Order/Prog in the deck, your Elf count goes way too low for Messenger to be a good source cardadvantage. You also need to make room for Order-Prog and after testing it, cutting Messenger does feel like the right decision.

However, if you play a version without Order, playing Messenger feels like the right choise.

This. Sylvan Messenger was cut in order to make the deck more resilient in the first place. By adding Tarmogoyf, Harmonic Sliver/whatever, Masticore, etc, you lose your elf count but give the deck added dimensions to fight off hate effectively. Unless you play a version similar to one of my original builds, chaining Messengers is near impossible. The elf count is far too low.

Also, playing Messenger in a build without Order is the right choice, but it's wrong choice in general. Not playing Natural Order is a huge, huge mistake in this deck.

manugl84
04-28-2009, 06:20 PM
Hi all:

I tested the deck today against UW merfolks (sygg, stp and path to exile MD) and went 3-3.

The deck performed very well, but I felt that a real removal would have won me some more games.

Reading the thread I thought that masticore would be perfect, but I donīt know what to cut.

For reference, my list is this:

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Natural Order
1 Anger
1 Progenitus
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Priest of Titania
2 Quirion Ranger
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Elvish Champion
2 Wren's Run Vanquisher
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
1 Harmonic sliver

4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
3 Savannah
6 Forest

Sideboard:
3 Krosan Grip
3 Choke
1 Caller of the Claw
2 Absolute Law
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Empyrial archangel (some burn in my meta)

Any advice? Maybe -1 vanquisher, +1 masticore?

Thank you and sorry for my english.

evilfred
04-28-2009, 09:06 PM
Personally I love the Vanquisher, in an elf shell of course. But I don't think it is at his best in the deck. The lack off available slots in the deck made me try without them.

- What happen when you're stuck with one in your hand and no other elf. Ok, there's the survival option but it's not always available (Krosan Grip, bad luck, etc.) Then this elf cost you an extra 3 to play if you can't show an other elf card. Just in your build, there's 32 cards that are not elves card. So this set your chance to one in two. This is the exact reason why we don't play the Messenger anymore.

Of course this is only my opinion ;)

The only difference between your list and mine is that I play:
+1 land, +1 Mirror Entity, +1 Symbiote and -2 Vanquisher, -1 Elvish Champion

The Masticore goes in the Sideboard for now.

PS: Sorry for my english too! I'm french :)

*EDIT*
Still waiting for Di list hehehe!