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Lego
12-24-2005, 04:59 PM
Someone had to do it, folks. This deck has been gone for too long, and it's just too much fun to warrant that absence. Sure, it loses to a resolved Force, a Tormod's Crypt, or a Phyrexian Furnace, but that's not the point. It's fast, realiable, and unexpected. Now is probably not the time to bring it back (what with all the incidental hate from Threshold being big, and the fact that it should have a terrible matchup against Thresh) but if not now, then when?

Let's start with the decklist. This is the build I play, mostly a Legacy port of Ben Kowal's T1 Ninja Mask, sans Mask. It is basically a balls-to-the-wall combo version, eschewing most of the tricky things the deck can do and instead just attempting to win. Failing at that, it loses.

Ninja Gaiden

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Unearth

4 Volrath's Shapeshifter
1 Psychatog
2 Phage the Untouchable
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Cephalid Inkshrouder

4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Force of Will

4 Brainstorm
3 Lim-Dul's Vault

3 Birds of Paradise
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Bayou
4 Tropical Island
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
4 Forest

Card choices:

4 Survival of the Fittest: this is the one-card engine of the deck.

4 Volrath's Shapehifter: He's the guy that makes the combo possible.

4 Unearth: This allows you to go off a full two-three turns earlier, without double blue. It also cantrips if you have extras. These can be switched out for Reanimate if you want the ability to bring back Akroma (just don't target Phage.) Unearth can also target BoP to get back one who was Bolted, or sometimes just Psychatog for the win.

1 Akroma, 2 Phage: These are obvious parts of the combo. Akroma means you don't need Anger.

1 Psychatog: Graveyard manipulation, so things like Wasteland won't crush your hopes and dreams.

1 Elvish Spirit Guide: Oftentimes this will give you the one last mana you need to go off.

1 Cephalid Inkshrouder: To give untargetability (and incidentally unblockability.) A turn 3 Untargetable, Unblockable Phage should be game.

4 Durres, 3 Cabal Therapy, 4 Force of Will: These protect your combo.

4 Brainstorm, 4 Lim-Dul's Vault: These find your combo. Don't underestimate the power of Lim-Dul's Vault.

3 Birds of Paradise, 3 Quirion Ranger: these accelerate you, and work well together.

There's no sideboard, as that is largely meta dependent, but I can assure you it would not include Hypnox.

Another option is to include a transformational sideboard into a more standard Survival deck, or add things like Phyrexian Ghoul/Symbiotic Wurm in the board.

Cards not chosen:

Squee: This deck is trying to go off too fast for this to be relevant.

Genesis: See above.

Anger: See Akroma description.

Basically anything that does not immediately add to the speed or resiliancy of the combo was taken out. The deck is all about finding, protecting, and executing the combo, and anything that doesn't add to that goal was not included.

A different version
For reference, I will provide a vastly different Shapeshifter list that goes for the toolbox approach, just for ideas:

Full Irish Breakfast

1 Anger
4 Birds Of Paradise
1 Eternal Witness
1 Flametongue Kavu
1 Genesis
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Phyrexian Ghoul
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Shadow Guildmage
1 Symbiotic Wurm
1 Tradewind Rider
1 Verdant Force
1 Viridian Zealot
4 Volrath's Shapeshifter
4 Wall Of Roots
1 Wonder
1 Wood Elves
1 Kira, Great Glass-spinner
1 Phage The Untouchable
1 Spirit Of The Night
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

4 Survival Of The Fittest
4 Brainstorm
4 Force Of Will

4 Forest
2 Bayou
2 Taiga
4 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills

SB: 1 Sundering Titan
SB: 1 Avalanche Riders
SB: 1 Callous Oppressor
SB: 1 Gilded Drake
SB: 1 Hypnox
SB: 1 Ichneumon Druid
SB: 1 Nezumi Graverobber
SB: 1 Plaguebearer
SB: 1 Psychatog
SB: 1 Shivan Wurm
SB: 4 Choke
SB: 1 Kokusho, The Evening Star

This list sacrifices much of the speed of the combo, and instead adds other combos like Phyrexian Ghoul/Symbiotic Wurm. I would prefer not to talk about this list, as it really is a completely different deck, but I'm including it for possible brainstorming topics.

If people have enough interest in this deck, I will post a list of playtesting results. I have no playtesting partner right now, and my testing consists mostly of stomping unprepared kids at local Legacy tournaments, but if I get enough requests, I will make the effort.

Evil Roopey
12-24-2005, 05:54 PM
I just wanted to take this lovely opportunity to say the Ninja Gaiden for Nintendo is the best game ever.

On a lesser note, how does this deck do against the field? Goblins? Gro? To me it looks like it wouldn't be so hot.

Lego
12-24-2005, 10:14 PM
[color=#000000:post_uid12]Goblins- it actually fairs pretty well. Their clock is usually slower than yours, so you've got time to set up. You have Duress, Cabal Therapy, and Force back-up to slow them down. The problem with this matchup is that they play both Sharpshooter and Mogg Fanatic, both of which are hard to play around. My testing has always been against the ancient version of the deck though, so now with Wasteland and Port, it could be [i:post_uid12]much[/i:post_uid12] harder. I'd have to learn to play around that better, and possibly include more basics.

Gro, on the other hand, is a much bigger problem. Last time I played this deck Thresh wasn't a metagame presence, so I never played/tested it, but it seems like it would be tough. In theory if you can use your disruption to force through a Survival of the Fittest with enough mana to go off, you should be okay. Mystic Enforcer poses a threat, so you'll have to have an extra mana to also grap an Inkshrouder, but all in all it's still possible to win.

I'll do some more testing against both of these decks and give you some actual results as soon as I can find someone to test against.

Landstill- Kicks it in the nuts. Watch our for Wasteland lock, but otherwise they don't pack enough counters to pose a threat.

RGSA- [i:post_uid12]Usually[/i:post_uid12]Beats it pretty handily. Sharpshooter is the most dangerous card in this matchup, so be ready to discard an Inkshrouder, then respond to the Sharpshooter trigger with an Akroma, or something of that sort.

Bw Pikula- Nightmare matchup, if it's anything like Pox. I used to play Ninja Gaiden in a tournament where my friend played Pox, and he would handily crush me nearly every time. Your only hope is to go off on turn three or four, before they can do much of anything to disrupt you. Barring that, they've got Wasteland and Sinkhole to stop your mana development, Hymn and Duress to rip your hand apart, and Vindicate for Survival. After board Withered Wretch is [i:post_uid12]not[/i:post_uid12] your friend.

Slight/Burn- Usually very hard matchups because they can kill your Shifter in response to just about anything. Best way to win is to hardcast him with Akroma on top.

Solidarity- You can usually go off before they can, and their only disruption is Force, so this isn't too tough.

Looking back at these results, I think this is basically just not a deck that you ever want to bring anywhere. Targetted removal usually ruins your day, and for the most part it's a three card combo with very little searching. I don't know how I ever did well with this, or decided that I should post it. Sorry :(

EDIT: It beats the GP Lille Aluren deck ;)[/color:post_uid12]

Watcher487
12-25-2005, 01:21 AM
I really do hate to say this but why even play Survival if your only playing 16 creatures total? Shoot with all of the search and disruption/counter-magic, why even play Green in the deck? Intuition, Buried Alive and Tourtured Existance are all excellent examples of non-green ways to win.

Also, as the creator of the other pile you listed, which should actually be called 'Full Irish Breakfast'. Tends to be about as fast as your current version, considering ideal hands.

My current 'speed' version really hasn't changed much in the past 2 years though.

Fast Food
1 Psychatog

3 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Minion of Lesrac
1 Phage

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Mana Leak
4 Volrath's Shapeshifter

4 Birds of Paradise
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Survival of the Fittest
1 Verdant Force
3 Wall of Roots

1 Akroma

4 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Island
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Windswept Heath

Thanks for the post and props.

Slay
12-25-2005, 10:35 AM
It should be noted that Intuition and Buried Alive put the creatures into the graveyard as resolution of the spell, and then afterwards are put in the graveyard. So you end up with a 0/1 dork in the yard.

With that in mind, if you played 2-3 Psychatogs, the Intuit plan would work very well.
-Slay

Lego
12-25-2005, 11:44 AM
I'll test the intuition plan, but really Survival just seems better. The fact that you can respond with it is quite useful, and it allows for a transitional board.

@ Watcher: You should probably include Inkshrouder or something similar in that build. I've found him to be highly useful.

Also @ Watcher (or Slay): Any ideas about what to do about the fact that direct damage/targetted removal just ruins your day? Normally I find that Duress/Therapy/Force takes care of it pretty well, but if something like Mogg Fanatic resolves early (or two or three of them) it becomes more difficult. The only way I've found around it is hardcasting the Shifter with Akroma or Inkshrouder in the yard.

EDIT: What's the Minion for?

Watcher487
12-25-2005, 01:08 PM
EDIT: What's the Minion for?
Minion of Leshrac is for clearing out your opponents board. He taps to destroy target creature or land. I usually switch between him and Hypnox in that spot.


It should be noted that Intuition and Buried Alive put the creatures into the graveyard as resolution of the spell, and then afterwards are put in the graveyard. So you end up with a 0/1 dork in the yard.

With that in mind, if you played 2-3 Psychatogs, the Intuit plan would work very well.
-Slay

Well Slay if your going to be dropping green I would hope that you would add more Psychatogs, and I know that after the spell resolves the card goes on top of the graveyard.

Lego
12-26-2005, 05:14 PM
I know that Minion kills a creature, but he just seems so superfluous. Once you drop the Shifter, why aren't you just winning? What creatures on the board, aside from Big Platts, are really going to stop that?

Watcher487
12-26-2005, 07:04 PM
I know that Minion kills a creature, but he just seems so superfluous. Once you drop the Shifter, why aren't you just winning? What creatures on the board, aside from Big Platts, are really going to stop that?
Well the thing that is a little more unusual about Minion is that he can kill off lands. Wasteland and Port are the 2 most obvious ones.

Minion forces your opponent to show his hand especially with a wasteland on the board. And also at the time the biggest problem with the deck was Maze of Ith, which at that point in time you had to drop 2 Shapeshifters to get around it.


I usually switch between him and Hypnox in that spot.

You should probably include Inkshrouder or something similar in that build. I've found him to be highly useful.

I just like having options when I play the deck. I'm not the 'suicidal' type of combo player. As my version ('FIB') of the deck shows, options are usually a plus when it comes to playing against an open field.

Lego
12-26-2005, 07:27 PM
It seems like your deck and mine both have the same problem. I've never in my entire time playing this deck had a shapeshifter become something else, and then lose. That's why I felt like all the other tricks weren't needed.

That being said, what does FIB lose to?

Watcher487
12-28-2005, 12:59 PM
It seems like your deck and mine both have the same problem.
?? ??
I think the correct statement for that is, "It seems like your deck has more problems than mine."


I've never in my entire time playing this deck had a shapeshifter become something else, and then lose. That's why I felt like all the other tricks weren't needed.

I have lost MULTIPLE times with shifter on the board with Force of Will backup as well. And I consider myself a decent pilot of the deck as well. Tricks are needed to survive some matches (ie Threshold).


That being said, what does FIB lose to?

Your current list is about the same as mine with a couple of minor exceptions.

Win%/Lose%
Burn is usually 20/80 (depends on the build)
Threshold(GUR) 45/55
Solidarity 50/50 (the loss of direct disruption hurts)
Threshold(GUW) 65/35
RGSA 75/25
Goblins 75/25

I hope this helps you out. Usually it's after sideboard where most of my stuff shines. Currently I have been playing Battlefield Scrounger (3/3 for 5 with the Threshold ability to put 3 cards in my graveyard to the bottom of my deck for +3/+3 until EOT) over Psychatog. Phyrexian Ghoul is the backup plan for most of your examples, that is why Wonder and Anger are in the deck.

Lego
12-28-2005, 01:47 PM
When I said the decks have the same problem, it's targetted removal. There is no question that you know how to pilot the deck better than I do, but there's really nothing I fear outside of targetted removal without enough mana/creatures in hand to take care of it. It's only really an issue when you need to combo out immediately, and that might be where my build has some problems compared to yours, because if I don't combo out in the early game, I can't win in the late game. There's virtually no long game to my deck. But usually, you've got a few turns to build up the hand necessary to go off through your opponents answers, so it's not much of a problem.

I didn't say I've never lost with Shifter on the board. I said I've never had him on the board, as someone else (other than BoP or Ranger) and lost, and I've played the deck a l ot. That's why I can't see a need to turn him into anyone who wouldn't just win the game immediately.

My win conditions are generally the same as yours. I have a much better percentage against Solidarity, and I have to admit I've never tested Thresh (although I would assume the maindeck disruption would help, I'll test as soon as I get the chance).

Against most decks, I don't fear comboing at all. An early Duress or Cabal Therapy will usually only add to my confidence, and most of the time you're going off so early that they can't play more than one threat a turn and a single Force will virtually ensure your combo. Often the biggest hindrance to going off is a Mogg Fanatic on the board. One is easy to play around, but two is harder, and I think I might include a Squee, allowing me to wait a turn and get an extra creature in hand when needed. Who knows, maybe I just suck at playing the deck?

I find that most players are idiots and use the removal at the wrong time, in which case you just win. Otherwise, it's usually fairly easy to play around, it's just when they add the threat with a clock that it becomes a bit harder, hence Burn being my nightmare matchup.

Overall, I don't see much in the way of percentages that your build offers which mine doesn't. The resiliancy doesn't seem to actually help too many of your matchups much. I'm not trying to slight your piloting or deckbuilding skills, but it seems too cutesy for me, something which has always made me shy away from Survival builds. Try out the "Suicide" version, as you call it, and you'll see that it's much faster and harder to disrupt than you might at first think. (HOWEVER: It should only be played if you have some crazy need to play Shapeshifter or Survival combo. There are several other decks that have as fast a clock or faster, and are harder to disrupt (I.E. Solidarity))

Bane of the Living
12-30-2005, 08:52 PM
As a fellow survival combo comrade I need to ask you why you run this over Welder Survival. Is winning with Phage sweet? HELL YES! Thats almost all the deck has going for it is the combo chain tho. At least welder survival has back up r/g toolbox/beats.

The decks have the same concept.
1. Get out SotF
2. Abuse SotF, result in huge guy
3. Win and dance

~ Targeted removal hurts my welder just as much as shapshifter, but mines ONE MANA! I can even survival one up and play it for less than it takes to just play yours.

~ I dont need to attack to win. Random blockers and Moat wont matter much when I have machine gunner triks and land banner titans.
:angry:

I have seen FEB in action and its sick and fun. But welder is just as sick and fun, and its more resilient.

Bargoth
12-30-2005, 10:06 PM
The main reason I see to play it over Welder is that you have a good excuse to run Black and Blue, which are better disruption colors than Red. You gain things like discard and counters that are better vs. control and combo which are generally the harder match-ups.
Like you said the general plan is more or less the same get a fast Survival, churn out a huge creature, pound face before the player knows what hit them. FEB brings in Force of Will and Cabal Therapy to give you a fighting chance against Gro's early counters, cause lets face it both of these decks don't function too well without Suvival in play. So I think the reason to go FEB over Welder Survival is that you have access to cheap ways to protect you fragil combo pieces (Suvival and Shapeshifter) where as in Welder you dont really have those options.

Bane of the Living
01-01-2006, 08:47 PM
The thing with welder survival is that so much of what the deck can play is a threat. You can combo off with a turn one welder, turn 2 via mox Thirst for knowledge/Intuition dumping a fat titan. Welder CAN win without survival, FEB needs survival way more.

The point about FoW and Therapy is a great one, but you can pick ONE of them and support it fine in welder since it can splash the black or up its blue count to 16 including FoW's to be able to play it.

The biggest problem I have with FEB is its ridiculously large amount of dead cards. Ninja Gaiden looks like it can bust one out of course, but it looks like it hates to use green. You NEED green. It's almost the decks handicap. If the deck wants to evolve I think it will need to ditch a color. Wasteland = nightmare with three colors. Especially in Survival combo.

I think the right cut would be black. Black contributes the least to your deck. Your really only using it for discard and lim duls vault. Why not up your counterspells and add Elish Spirit Guides

Watchers speed list looks like the optimal build I have to say. But I still think three colors is the decks problem.

Lego
01-02-2006, 12:05 AM
Play the Ninja Gaiden list a bit. You'll see that the last thing you want to cut is the Vaults. The deck literally can't function without them. Piloted by a good player, the black disruption is usually all you need to protect your combo, and the Forces are just gravy. Honestly, I'm more worried seeing a furst turn mountain sitting across from me than an island.

@ Bane: Winning with Phage is the only reason to run this over Welder Survival. It's the only real reason to run it over anything. There are at least half a dozen decks I would run before this if I actually wanted to win. That's why it's not in the Open forum. Do I think this has a place in certain metagames? Sure. Do I think it can come out of nowhere and steal wins it has no business stealing? Heck yeah. Is it the best, fastest, or most resilient combo in Legacy? Not even close. But it sure as heck is fun to play.

napalmnate
06-15-2006, 11:26 PM
Well i've read your builds, and it seems u guys aren't thinking out side the box

with all the yard hate in the format u really need to beable to change strats on the fly, its why i don't use TOG, i use scrounger, it saves key peices of your deck plus can rip things off the top of your yard, its not OFTEN u have to dig more then 3 cards.

Ive also been playing with a build with yore-tiller and rakdos, seems to work well , allows for some options out side of shapeshifter, plus yore-tiller with shapeshifter can do some neat tricks, attack with tiller on top of lib, put another shapeshifter into play, then put dreadnaught or some other good tool fatty. AND i use both survival and intuition (fules the tiller/raya). also i LOVE nicol bolas but SB at best.

Finn
06-16-2006, 10:19 AM
Lego Army Man's opening post:

Basically anything that does not immediately add to the speed or resiliancy of the combo was taken out. The deck is all about finding, protecting, and executing the combo, and anything that doesn't add to that goal was not included.
Dreadnaughts, Nephilim, and Nicol Bolas do not push the "I win" goal of the combo. They just take up space.

and Watcher487 wrote:

...I have been playing Battlefield Scrounger (3/3 for 5 with the Threshold ability to put 3 cards in my graveyard to the bottom of my deck for +3/+3 until EOT) over Psychatog.
It seems to me that the answer was made available by those inside the box all along.

btw, LAM, I love the Unearth tech. Very cool. Never noticed before.

Benie Bederios
06-27-2006, 07:14 PM
I just picked up a set of Survivals and think about playing FEB, because it's so much fun. Especially this deck.

Are there any new developments. I think the base is really good, because it can win if survival got shut down. But winning with a Leyline in play is a lot trickier, how can you get past this problem.

Second might it be an option to cut black, I like the trick with Reanimate( I choose this one over Unearth, because it lets you win games were Shapeshifter got shut down) but counters can take the spot of Discard( misdirection being good next to FoW) or will this shut down the versilaty of the deck.

Lego
06-28-2006, 02:03 AM
btw, LAM, I love the Unearth tech. Very cool. Never noticed before.

I'm not sure how I didn't notice that people were posting on this deck thread. Aside from winning with Phage, Unearth was pretty much the reason I picked up this deck in the first place. It's such an awesome (and highly underplayed) card.


Are there any new developments. I think the base is really good, because it can win if survival got shut down. But winning with a Leyline in play is a lot trickier, how can you get past this problem.

There are no new developments because I didn't expect anyone (myself included) to ever take the deck seriously. I'm not sure there's honestly anywhere the deck can go in a meta so full of graveyard hate, and with such a fragile combo. With a good pilot at a local tournament, you've probably got a pretty decent shot of winning, but bring this to any large (and therefore long) tournament, and you're going to lose too many games that you were simply never in.

If you're playing it for fun at your local tournament, I'd recommend my list (the first one) as it's much more fun. Otherwise, Watcher's list is probably better, but I'm just assuming, never having really played it. I simply prefer to Unearth my Shapeshifters, cast a Duress and a couple of Cabal Therapies, and have no backup plan at all.

As for playing around Leyline, just hope you never have to do it. Assuming it started the game in play (and you therefore could not Duress/Cabal Therapy/Force it) your options become beat for the win (with Psychatog, Elvish Spirit Guide, Cephalid Inkshrouder, or Quirion Ranger) or hard cast Phage (and then swing with her, obv) Coincidentally, this is about the exact same plan you have against Tormod's Crypt, which happens to be in everyone and their sister's sideboard right now.


Second might it be an option to cut black, I like the trick with Reanimate( I choose this one over Unearth, because it lets you win games were Shapeshifter got shut down) but counters can take the spot of Discard( misdirection being good next to FoW) or will this shut down the versilaty of the deck.

The whole point is to win with Phage. And play Unearth. Otherwise just play Welder Survival... or any other good deck.

Benie Bederios
06-28-2006, 07:12 AM
Coincidentally, this is about the exact same plan you have against Tormod's Crypt, which happens to be in everyone and their sister's sideboard right now.

Tormod's crypt is easily to play around. Normally they use it when you dump Phage in to the grave( atleast in my testing) if you make sure you have the second one you just dump that one afterwards an still win.

This deck has got an advantage over Welder Survival, that it can win in one unchecked turn. If you're opponent taps out thinking he's out of danger, you can kill him in one turn.

This deck needs more tutors and search, this way the deck can win without Survival. I've started upping the Vaults to 4, but it's still not enough, especially because it doesn't draw cards. Intuition springs to mind. It tutors for the cards you need( for example Survival) and gives you an out to combo without Survival. It's a bummer it's put in the graveyard after the tutored cards.

I'm dropping black to make Force of Will stronger. I didn't drop black entirely, but I dropped the Cabal Therapies for additional blue cards. Because you're version has to few blue to support FoW.

Lego
06-28-2006, 11:18 AM
Actually, the second Phage is there almost exclusively to combat graveyard hate, and does quite a good job at it. A single Tormod's Crypt is usually pretty easy to play through, it's where you hit a second that it becomes more difficult. Normally I'm not too worried about it, and I rarely lose games to it. Just stay on your toes and think about all of your options (Shapeshifter is a pretty tricky card.)

Technically the blue count for Force of Will is just fine. Usually the number we use around here is 16 blue cards. There are 17, so for each individual Force, there will be 16 others. Also, Survival effectively turns any creature into a Psychatog or Cephalid Inkshrouder for pitching in a pinch. I've never had too much problem with it, and I would be loathe to lose Cabal Therapy. It's just too huge. I'd probably lose Force first.

As for other search, I haven't found any need for it, but then again, I'm a horrible cheating luck sack. You have two tutors (Survival and Lim-Dul's Vault) which will get you basically every card you need. Brainstorm can get you one of those. While you're doing that, you should be setting up your mana and proactively protecting your combo.