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Pellefant
01-12-2009, 07:26 PM
Hi everybody! This is my first posting on the source and also my first "primer". The deck is a g/w aggro-control-ish beatdown deck that I've been tuning for a couple of years now. To begin with let's take a look at the list I'm currently running:

// Lands (23)
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Ancient Tomb
2 Treetop Village
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland

//Dudes (21)
3 Llanowar Elves
3 Birds of Paradise
4 Troll Ascetic
3 Call of the Herd
2 Iwamori of the Open Fist
3 Jötun Grunt
3 Eternal Witness

//Utility (16)
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Sword of Fire and Ice (SoFI)
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Sylvan Library
3 Mana Tithe
4 Swords to Plowshares (StP)

//Sideboard
SB 1 Engineered Explosives (EE)
SB 2 Pithing Needle
SB 3 Relic of Progenitus (RoP)
SB 2 Worship
SB 3 Gaddock Teeg
SB 4 Krosan Grip

I really like this deck and list, the only card I'm not completely satisfied with is Sylvan Library but I just don't know what to replace it with. On the other hand it interacts nicely with fetchlands and can draw you some cards occasionally, the draw ability is of course best when you're facing control. I ran top in this slot for a short while but I feel the library is superior. The deck is really solid and a very good choice to play in a unknown meta because it really doesn't have any terrible matchups, altough some combo decks are hard to beat.

*Results*

I've played it in three tournaments so far, and put up respectable finishes each time. One top8 in a landstill heavy meta, I got knocked out by uwgb-landstill.
I just missed out on the t8 in one of swedens largest legacy tournaments to date (70+ players), me and one of the players from our "team" had to play for t8-spot. He beat me with his aggro-rock and continued to win the entire tournament.
The biggest accomplishment though was my third place finish in swedish legacy nationals 2007.

*Card choices*

The mana base is pretty solid, 6 fetchlands and 4 basics is the way to go and it makes stuff like price of progress, magus of the moon etc easy to handle most of the time. The lone Taiga could be any green dual, it's only there to supply extra mana color for the engineered explosives. The ancient tombs are great for making elephants on the second turn in case you don't have first turn elf or bop. They also enable second turn Iwamori and the nut play of: turn 1 - bop/elf, turn 2 - troll ascetic, turn 3 -ancient tomb, sword of fire and ice, equip troll and swing.

Creaturewise the six manacritters are crucial for making a nice turn 2 threedrop, which are plentyful in this deck. I've tried anything from 4-7 manacritters but right now I'm satisfied with six. Arguably elves are stronger but the three/three split is because of bop's ability to produce white which is nice and it flies so they can chump tombstalkers and other flying fatties. Also, a bop with a SoFI is nothing to sneeze at. ;P
Now on to Troll Ascetic. Aaah, how I love this guy. Why more people don't play him is a mystery to me. For a measly three mana you get a pretty much unkillable beatstick. Strap an equipment on to this dude and your opponent is in for a VERY rough time. Starting hands containg troll, manacritter and equipment is the biggest reason to play the deck, that's pretty much game against any creaturebased deck. I can't stress this enough, troll ascetic is the nuts! He survives pretty much anything the format can throw at him this side of a wrath of god.
I guess a pretty good (actuallty very good...) argument could be made for this deck to play tarmogoyf but I don't give a damn. Playing without it makes me feel like a more decent human being, and it probably gives me some good karma too. ;D No, but seriously, goyf is a beast. If I had them I maybe would run them but I'm not so certain. Jötun Grunt is in the deck to combat mainly threshold and goyfs and he's very good at it. There are no tricks to make him last longer and it's not needed most of the time. I mean, if Grunt stays on the table for more than a couple of turns your opponent would be in for some rough times anyway.
You may think that Grunt has bad synergy with eternal witness but it's not a big issue, often there will be one or a couple of cards left in your graveyard when grunt dies and you just need to make sure it's the ones you want to re-use.
Call of the Herd is an alltime favorite mainstay of mine and it's still as good as ever. A solid body for a reasonable cost and card advantage to boot, nuff said.
Iwamori of the Open Fist is a undercosted heavy hitter with virtually no drawback, some friends suggested playing Chameleon Colossus in these slots and even though that might be better in many cases Iwamori still has trample and the Colossus doesn't. And he looks mean as hell.

Seal of Cleansing and Seal of Primordium are very versatile cards and running one of each is good when facing pithing needle or meddling mage.
Some players might frown upon mana tithe, but I think it's very good in legacy. Most decks really wants to use all their mana on each of the first turns so chances are you're going to counter whatever they play. Later in the game though, not so much. I often board out some or all of the tithes but even then they are making an impact and forcing your opponent to play around them or risk losing a card to it. Another sweet thing about mana tithe is that many players get quite upset when you cunter one of their key spells with such a crappy card, and that may cause them to play worse.

On to the sideboard now. The extra EE is kind of a multipurpose card, it goes in against combo, threshold, some aggro etc, you have to call it depending on the situation.
Pithing Needles are best facing combo or landstill. Gaddock is also for the combo matchup, but he's also good against Stax and Eva Green (makes their snuff outs dead).
Worship is mainly for burn and goblins, Troll + Worship = good game. Krosan Grip is pretty much awesome so I want a full set of those. If your meta is combo heavy I suggest you run Gaddock maindeck and put chalice's/thorns of ametyst in the board aswell. Or run a different deck completely... Combodecks aren't that frequent in the Swedish meta anyway.

*Matchups*

Favorable matchups:

Threshold

Now here's why you erally should play this deck, it absolutely destroys threshold. You have more creatures, your equipment makes all of them hard to deal with, Jötun Grunt kills their threshold and Troll Ascetic can take down Mongooses all day long and even block goyfs for eternity. Call of the herd ain't half bad here either. Threshold running red is the hardest of them (it's still an excellent matchup though) since they can burn you out of the game in case you get low on life. Thresholded Mystic Enforcer's can present a threat aswell but luckily almost noone plays them here in Sweden.
Counterbalance is a bitch but you have plenty of three drops and that's a very hard number for them to counter. EE should almost always be set to 2 in this matchup since both goyf and counterbalance is 2cc.
Sideboarding: -2 Iwamori, -1 Sylvan Library -1 Eternal Witness. + 3 RoP, +1 EE. You may consider boarding in Worship, I wouldn't advice for or against it. Krosan Grip is a good choice to if counterbalance gives you to much of a headache.

Goblins
This matchup is also in your favor. Not nearly as good as the threshold matchup but still in your favor. SoFI wins this one pretty much on it's own.
Sideboarding: -1 Seal of Cleansing, -1 Seal of Primordium, -1 Iwamori, +2 Worship, +1 EE.

Dragon Stompy
This is another deck you'd like to face. Magus doesn't hurt you most of the time and Troll + equipments will dominate. Also you have removal where as they don't.
Chalice for 1 is painful though but EE and the seals should take care of it.
SIdeboardin: -2 Iwamori, -1 Mana Tithe (you don't want them to drop red akroma in to play for free...), +2 Worship, +1 EE.

Faerie Stompy
Not the most common deck in Sweden but if you run in to it you'll probably win. As for Dragon Stompy the chaliceses are your worst enemy./
Sideboarding: Depends on build but maybe something along the lines of: -3 Jötun Grunt, - +2 Worship, +1 EE

*50/50 (or better) matchups*

Suicide black type decks
Depending on the build they present different difficulties. Eva Green is probably the worst matchup and Tombstalker is the main reason. It get's better after sideboard though.The pro white knights (order of the ebon hand, etc.) can be pretty troublesome too. One common situation here is when you are on the play, drops land, passes the turn with mana tithe on hand and your opponent plays first turn dark ritual. Should you mana tithe the ritual or wait for the spells? I think it's kind of situational. If the play is hypnotic or negator off the ritual than you get a nice 2 for 1 from the tithe. But if he plays duress/thoughtseize and you don't tithe than he will have to pick the mana tithe or not be able to cast the hymn or bob or whatever 2cc he was holding. Another option is if you have wasteland in hand and he played ritual off a non basic, then you very well could tithe the ritual and then waste the land on your turn hoping to mana screw him a bit.
Depending on the craziness on their first turn off dark ritual this can be anywhere from a walk in the park to a severe beating. Overall I think you're slightly ahead though.
Monoblack sui will likely board dystopia against you and it could get nasty.
Sideboarding against Eva Green: -2 Seals, -3 Mana Tithe, +2Gaddock Teeg (If they are running snuff out), +3 RoP (great for making Tombstalker hard to cast and also keeps goyf in line).
Against other sui: -2 Seals, -1 Mana Tithe, + 2 Worship, +1 EE

Painters Combo
Now here's a deck I really think is awful. Granted, it plays a 2 card "I win"-type combo but one of them is a creature and there is no end to the ways a creature can die. Mana tithes and StP:s are key, as well as seals, EE and even Jitte if you get it online. After boarding it looks even better.
Sideboarding: -2 Iwamori, -3 Jötun Grunt, -2 Sword of Fire and Ice, +1 EE, +2 Pithing Needle, +4 Krosan Grip,

Burn/Goyf Sligh
Depending on your hand and draw this matchup varies a great deal in difficulty. If you don't get as many basic lands then price of progress can be a huge threat, most of time it will not though. SoFI is obviously nuts, and also jitte. Burn is actually one of the few decks who can kill Troll Ascetic with out to much trouble and that's because of Flamebreak. Even though most monored burn decks don't run so many creatures I strongly advice against boarding out your Stp:s. In this particular matchup you'll occasionally have to play them on your own creatures, and you'll f***ing like it.
Sideboarding against Burn: -2 Iwamori, -2 EE, +2 Worship, +2 Gaddock Teeg (prevents fireblast)
Against Goyf sligh: -2 Seal, -1 Sylvan Library, +1 EE, +2 Worship

U/W Landstill
Thanks to the lack of Pernicious Deed this is a hell of a lot easier matchup than the UWBG version. All equipment is pretty good here but the SoFI is absolutely nuts. It turns your every creature to a huge threat. You should almost always try to play SoFI second turn off a manacritter if you can, instead of trying to play Trolls or elephants first. Humility and Moat are a couple of bitches but the equipment helps against humility and at least an equipped bop can fly over the moat for some damage ;P
Sideboarding: -2 EE, -1 Jitte, -3 Mana Tithe, -3 Jötun Grunt, -2 StP, +2 Pithing Needle, +3 Gaddock, +2 RoP, +4 Krosan Grip


*Bad Matchups*

Storm Combo
This is what you would like to avoid facing. It gets a little better post board but still... This matchup demands some creative and timely uses of seals and EE:s to destroy moxes and LED:s. You'll have to need to know when to blow them though. EE is of course good against goblin tokens aswell. Once again StP:ing your own dudes may be an option in response to a lethal tendrils.
Sideboarding: -2 Iwamori, -2 SoFI, -2 StP, -1 Jötun Grunt, +3 Gaddock Teeg, +1 EE, +3 RoP (can bust their Ill gotten gains)

Belcher
This one sucks to. Generally I think it's slightly better for you though, thanks to Krosan Grip in the board.
Sideboarding: -2 Iwamori, -4StP, -2 SoFI, -3 Jötun Grunt, -1 Eternal Witness, +2 Pithing Needle, +3 Gaddock Teeg, +1 EE, +4 Krosan Grip, +2 Worship

UWBG Landstill
Not imposible but very difficult and tedious. Humility is very bad and all the sweepers (Deed, EE) make sticking stuff to the board a big challenge. Troll is mvp here.
Sideboarding: -3 Mana Tithe, -1 Jitte, -4 StP, -1 Iwamori, -3 Jötun Grunt, +2 Pithing Needle, +4 Krosan Grip, +3 Gaddock Teeg, +3 RoP

*Why to play this deck?*

This deck is not for everyone. You have to like being kind of an underdog. It's a "fair" deck that doesn't rely on abusing the hell out of combo's or broken cards and that's what I like the most. But it's also a very solid deck, with few unwinable matchups and it puts Troll Ascetic, who is my favorite creature and completely amazing in this deck, to great work. If you are playing in a threshold heavy meta with few combo decks than I strongly recommend this deck. Or if you want a solid and fun deck with few bad matchups. If you like to turn green and white men sideways and would like to do so in Legacy than you should also give it a go. G/W beats IS a viable strategy!

Fuzzy
01-12-2009, 08:03 PM
0 Tarmogoyfs?

Are u kidding or tricking me?

Mordel
01-12-2009, 08:22 PM
The sheer volume of two slots sort of throws me off in light of several creatures that really want equipment to deal with...goyfs. The land set up is sort of off-putting for me.

The list sort of strikes me as a product of not enough losing or something that prevents you from really really tuning the deck. That's just what it look like to me though, so don't take it personally.

On vulnerability to CotV: I don't really see CotV hitting you that hard being as you fatties will dodge most early chalices and so do your equipment. If people are spending six mana on chalices and you have not damn near destroyed them yet, your deck needs some harsh tuning. The sylvan library question strikes me as really easily solved by...more equipment or another seal being as that is probably what you are going to be finding yourself digging for, based off of a cursory glance at your deck.

The two tombs confuse the shit out of me too...if you are going to run few copies, you might as well run city of traitors instead in my opinion because you are not going to be seeing them early that often probably, but I could be off there.

Either way if lots of your slots are based off of anecdotal instances of drawing stuff rather than raw statistical math-type non-sense like three or four cards being more likely to be drawn based on everything humanity knows about math. Shitty luck happens and I like to be prepared for it run more of some stuff.

DukeDemonKn1ght
01-13-2009, 12:19 AM
So, I'm interested in W/G, I'm trying to figure out a W/G Stompy build with Chalice of the Void and (maybe) Trinisphere in it... And I've been having a hard time finding awesome stuff in the threads I've started on the topic... Just mentioning this, because I'm someone trying to figure out a sort of similar type of deck. But I have to say, this looks to me like it needs some polishing.

First of all, I'd cut the 3 Mana Tithe for Enlightened Tutors, which can search up your toolbox, or get a fast equipment for your creatures. I'd cut Birds of Paradise. I know, it's more flexible than Llanowar Elves, but it doesn't do shit with a Jitte, and your curve is not that high that I think you actually need all that much acceleration. As far as the color issue, run Chrome Mox instead of Birds if you really think it helps that much. It's faster acceleration than Birds anyways, although at greater card disadvantage... On another note: My guess is that if Call of the Herd isn't good enough for Extended, it's not gonna be all that great in Legacy.

Now, to the elephant in the room: I know, I know, I hate Tarmogoyf also, but that's really not an excuse for running it. In order to not run Tarmogoyf, you basically have to run a deck which is legitimately better without it. Which means: a.) no green in the deck, b.) no creatures in the deck, or c.) not enough variety in card types to make it effective (doesn't happen often)... Of course, I'm exaggerating a little bit, but the fact is this: It makes NO sense not to run Tarmogoyf in this deck. At all.

Pellefant
01-13-2009, 07:34 AM
0 Tarmogoyfs?

Are u kidding or tricking me?

I'm tricking myself. ;P



The list sort of strikes me as a product of not enough losing or something that prevents you from really really tuning the deck. That's just what it look like to me though, so don't take it personally.

I agree to some extent, I don't think Tarmogoyf is a fun card and I really would dislike playing it. Although it probably is the right thing. If I were going to play them I would swap them for the Call of the herds and one bop. The deck has gone through extensive tuning though and puts up pretty decent game against almost any deck. At one time I actually tried goyfs but I didn't like them all that much...



On vulnerability to CotV: I don't really see CotV hitting you that hard being as you fatties will dodge most early chalices and so do your equipment. If people are spending six mana on chalices and you have not damn near destroyed them yet, your deck needs some harsh tuning.

Maybe I exaggerated this. It not that much of a big deal as long as you haven't kept a land light hand with a couple of manacritters.


The sylvan library question strikes me as really easily solved by...more equipment or another seal being as that is probably what you are going to be finding yourself digging for, based off of a cursory glance at your deck.

I had a SoFI in this slot previously but running three is too much I think. You don't want multiples early in the game. The library is easier to play should you get it in the first few turns.


The two tombs confuse the shit out of me too...if you are going to run few copies, you might as well run city of traitors instead in my opinion because you are not going to be seeing them early that often probably, but I could be off there.

I have tried city of traitors, even 1 city/ 1 tomb but I feel 2 tombs are more consistent.



Either way if lots of your slots are based off of anecdotal instances of drawing stuff rather than raw statistical math-type non-sense like three or four cards being more likely to be drawn based on everything humanity knows about math. Shitty luck happens and I like to be prepared for it run more of some stuff.

What are your suggestions to changes in the numbers??




First of all, I'd cut the 3 Mana Tithe for Enlightened Tutors, which can search up your toolbox, or get a fast equipment for your creatures. I'd cut Birds of Paradise. I know, it's more flexible than Llanowar Elves, but it doesn't do shit with a Jitte, and your curve is not that high that I think you actually need all that much acceleration. As far as the color issue, run Chrome Mox instead of Birds if you really think it helps that much. It's faster acceleration than Birds anyways, although at greater card disadvantage...

I think Mana Tithe is pretty awesome but it's a matter of taste I guess. I don't see myself running tutors because they are card disadvantage. Bops can utilise the jitte if some other dude had already supplied it with some counters. I might replace them with the new Noble Hierarch from conflux though, which taps for g/w or u and has exalted.
Chrome mox I don't like because again, card disadvantage. And you really want the acceleration turn 2 (not turn 1) for your three drops, so the mox isn't that optimal.


On another note: My guess is that if Call of the Herd isn't good enough for Extended, it's not gonna be all that great in Legacy.

Then again people claim Troll Ascetic isn't good enough for standard and he's pretty damn sweet in this deck. But yeah, CotH ain't the flashiest of cards, it does however supply some card advantage and extra bodies against removal heavy decks. And against threshold it can play tradesies with 2 Mongooses.



It makes NO sense not to run Tarmogoyf in this deck. At all.
Well, I guess it doesn't to most players (not even to myself, really). But not running them at least has a few advantages. They may not be many or especially fantastic but I like them:
1. Jötun Grunt can turn opposing goyfs tiny and you won't have to worry about your own.
2. When facing Threshold, Call of the Herd is more resilient to counterbalance than goyf.
3. Bringing in RoP in Threshold or Eva Green matchup wont hurt yourself.
4. Overall RoP doesn't hurt you that much.
5. It's manly.

I might however try them out again...

Valtrix
01-13-2009, 11:03 AM
No, the deck is simply better with goyf because he's always going to be a big better between just land/instant/sorcery/creature. Plus you run artifacts which could be countered/destroyed and enchantments that sac them selves. Sounds better than a 4/4 beater who is going to die in a few turns (or can't be played early on). You're reasoning to not play goyf is so thin I don't even think that you're convincing yourself is the right choice. Not playing a great card because you don't like it is simply a bad deckbuilding strategy. Play goyf. Anyway, more about the deck...

I really don't like mana tithe here. Why? Because you're an aggro deck, not a control deck. It doesn't make sense for you to play it--You want to be tapping out for creatures/equipment instead of saving a W for mana tithe. It doesn't seem that useful to you early on, and later on it's definitely a terrible topdeck. I would definitely run more threats instead. Higher threat density = good.

I think wasteland is worthless in this deck. Why? Because it doesn't really gain you much tempo/benefit. It's your only land destruction in this deck, so you can't really abuse the LD aspect as much as decks like Team America. But really, all of your threats are more expensive than most other decks, so you really won't have quick creatures that actually matter to deal with right away. That and you want your land so that you can actually play your cards. I would play lands that do something else...Like Mishra's factory or nantuko monastary. Heck, I'd play kor haven over wasteland.

Ancient tomb is not that great in here unless you play more that can actually use :2:. It doesn't help you play much in your deck because of :g::g: costs in troll/witness. Personally, I wouldn't like taking a lightning bolt to play a troll ascetic.

Exalted Angel?

Also, don't play horizon canopy. THe damage you have to take to make it produce mana for you is not worth the marginal benefit you get from being able to cantrip from it. You have no way to abuse it with land recursion either, making it even less useful.

Also, for mana producers...I know it's not out yet, but there's one that gives you G/W/B for G who also has exalted, which seems strictly better here. (Not that you can actually put it in the list right now, but it should be switched when conflux comes out). Even helps EE.

Anyway, I don't feel like writing anything else right now. I don't feel that this deck has had enough testing/tweaking to be in the established decks, but meh, whatever.