PDA

View Full Version : Jan 24-25 Legacy & Vintage @ RIW in Livonia Mi for Mox Ruby & Sapphire!!



St. Brian the Venerable
01-13-2009, 04:59 PM
Magic Weekend January 23rd, 24th, & 25th at RIW Hobbies in Livonia Michigan.

Schedule of Events.

Friday, January 23rd: Giant Friday Night Magic!
Format: Standard
Time: 6:30
Entry fee: $5

Prize payout:
1st: $100 store credit.
2nd: $50 s.c.
3rd-4th: $25 s.c. and draft set.
5th-8th: $15 s.c. and draft set.
9th-16th: $5 s.c. and draft set.
17th- 20th: choice of 1 type 2 booster pack.

That is $300 in Store Credit and over 40 packs as prize for a FNM!

Saturday January 24th:
Format: Legacy, 20 proxy (non sanctioned)
Entry fee: $15
Time: Store opens @11am, deck registration starts 12, and the tournament starts at 1)
First prize: Mox Ruby
(additional top 8 prizes will be awarded based upon attendance.)

SIDE EVENT:
Also, for those who didn't fare so well in the Legacy main event, there will be a Legacy Side event starting after the 4th round of the main event. The side event will also be Legacy with 20 proxies, and is free to anybody who paid to play in the main event. (Entry for players who did not play in the main event will be $5).

First prize in the side event will be players choice of either $25 in Store Credit, or their pick of any in stock revised dual land!

Sunday January 25th: Vintage Tournaments
Formant: Vintage, 20 proxy
Entry fee: $15
Time: Store opens @11am, deck registration starts at noon, and the event begins at 1pm.)
First prize: Mox Sapphire
(Additional top 8 prizes will be given out depending upon attendance.)

There will also be a Vintage side event free of entry fee to players who played in the main event (otherwise $5) starting after the fourth round of the main event. First prize will be players choice of $25 s.c. or choice of an in stock Revised Dual land.

Join us in Michigan for what should be an extremely fun weekend of Eternal Magic. Stay the weekend and play all the events, or show up for your favorite or specialty format!

Cheers,
Brian "ffy" DeMars

Location:

R.I.W. Hobbies
29116 Five Mile Road
Livonia, Mi
48154

Any questions or concerns?
Contact us:
(734) 261-7233
pam@riwhobbies.net

cdr
01-13-2009, 08:17 PM
Proxies + legacy = the worst. I know you vintage players can't concieve of tournaments without proxies, but still.

Also, not specifying any prizes beyond first is not helping you any.

Isamaru
01-13-2009, 08:26 PM
I like how you split up the prizes, that makes it a lot of fun for everyone involved :smile:

But.. proxies are boring and irritating to play with. Can you not allow them, or at least only allow 4 (for 4x of their dual land or whatever)?

I'd hate to be playing against netdecks all day because Billy realized he could proxy the 20 cards he needed to finally build Threshold.

hi-val
01-14-2009, 02:09 AM
Yeah Brian, I don't want to play against the best decks in the format, I want to beat people who don't buy all the cards I buy! Also, thanks for posting a Legacy event, I am going to bitch about it, especially for offering a good prize and a free side event. In fact, I'm going to reread the announcement to see if there's anything else I want to bitch about as well. I'm not going, but hey, I have an opinion that needs to be heard!




The huge turnout at the Meandeck Open was a direct result of proxies. It meant better prizes and better competition and a better time all around. If you don't like proxies, don't attend!

St. Brian the Venerable
01-14-2009, 03:18 AM
I can appreciate that fact that people who take the format seriously enough to buy all of the cards might feel uneasy about allowing people with proxies to play. And, if it is any consolation--I will be playing in the event, and I too have actually spent the money and time to acquire the cards so that I don't need to use proxies.

The reason that we decided to allow proxies at this event--quite simply, is that the players who actually shop and play at the store requested we allow proxies at the event. RIW hobbies is actively interested in hosting more legacy tournaments, as long as we can get enough people interested in the format to show up on a regular basis. We felt that the best way to get people started at playing would be to allow proxies, so that local Magic players who haven't played a ton of Legacy can try it out and see if they would like to make the hefty investment in dual lands etc.

To put it plainly, although some people may not like to play against proxied decks there has been an overwhelming request that we allow proxies; and, as much as I would like to try and accomodate everybody, it is simply impossible. If there is truly a large contingent of players who really feel strongly about decreasing the number of proxies, that is certainly something that the tournament organizers would be willing to talk about in the future. However, RIW hobbies would be much more likely to consider that sort of a thing from players who actually show up and play in the events, as opposed to random people who don't actually visit the store or play in our events. The goal is really just to put on a fun weekend where Magic players (especially Eternal players) from all over the midwest and beyond can congregate, play in some cheap tournaments with good prizes, trade cards, hang out and kick it.

Hopefully, those who are skeptical about the proxy issue will give it a shot--and if not, they will be missing out on a super fun experience.

In addition, the reason we don't specify prize beyond first place is just in case the turn out is lower or equal to the cost of the first place prize. If we get enough in entry fees to cover the cost of the Mox, then we give out store credit accordingly to other high placing finishers.

I am very much looking forward to this event, and I hope to see lots of you guys at the event.

Cheers!

Shriekmaw
01-14-2009, 09:14 AM
Proxies + legacy = the worst. I know you vintage players can't concieve of tournaments without proxies, but still.

Also, not specifying any prizes beyond first is not helping you any.


This is what seperates the real legacy community to the wannabe's.

The only reason they are hosting events in that region is b/c of the grand prix coming up, if it wasn't for that they wouldn't care about the format.

This kinda bothers me, but whatever.

RoddyVR
01-14-2009, 10:03 AM
This is what seperates the real legacy community to the wannabe's.

The only reason they are hosting events in that region is b/c of the grand prix coming up, if it wasn't for that they wouldn't care about the format.

This kinda bothers me, but whatever.

Get over yourself. The whole reason a Legacy GP is a Good thing is that it will hopefully get more people interested in legacy, and here you are basicaly saying "how dare they actualy show an interests in legacy... they arent even a real legacy community... wannabies." What is wrong with you? Be glad someone is trying to establish a legacy community where there isnt neccesserily one there already.

Too bad this tourny is way too far away from me, or i'd definetly go. Hope it goes realy well for you guys.

rockout
01-14-2009, 10:44 AM
I like how you split up the prizes, that makes it a lot of fun for everyone involved :smile:

But.. proxies are boring and irritating to play with. Can you not allow them, or at least only allow 4 (for 4x of their dual land or whatever)?

I'd hate to be playing against netdecks all day because Billy realized he could proxy the 20 cards he needed to finally build Threshold.

If you are planning on going to the GP, then you should definitely want people to be able to play their dream net deck. It's extremely good practice. Not everyone can have a developed legacy scene like New England and Europe. Good luck with the tournament.

donkyranger
01-14-2009, 11:16 AM
Brian,

I don’t think getting ppl interested in Legacy around here is the problem. Last week we had a good 20 ppl, w/ half the regulars not showing up, at our weekly Legacy tournament in Ann Arbor. Allowing proxies is in a way doing what Wizards is doing with Prereleases. They are trying to get more ppl into the game or in your case format and pushing away all the ppl who actually take the game/ format seriously.

It might be a little too late to revise the decision for this month’s tournament but for future ones you should really think rethink the proxies.

Thanks

cdr
01-14-2009, 11:28 AM
In addition, the reason we don't specify prize beyond first place is just in case the turn out is lower or equal to the cost of the first place prize. If we get enough in entry fees to cover the cost of the Mox, then we give out store credit accordingly to other high placing finishers.

Then make it explicit.

"X players = minimum $A store credit to 2nd"
"Z players = minimum $A store credit to 2nd, minimum $B to 3rd/4th"

Etc. Uncertainty is what kills it.

Smmenen
01-14-2009, 06:23 PM
Brian,

I don’t think getting ppl interested in Legacy around here is the problem. Last week we had a good 20 ppl, w/ half the regulars not showing up, at our weekly Legacy tournament in Ann Arbor. Allowing proxies is in a way doing what Wizards is doing with Prereleases. They are trying to get more ppl into the game or in your case format and pushing away all the ppl who actually take the game/ format seriously.

It might be a little too late to revise the decision for this month’s tournament but for future ones you should really think rethink the proxies.

Thanks

Can someone explain the argument against proxies again? How does the use of a limited number of proxies drive away the "established" player base? I can see policies which might be used to drum up support for a format but have the unintended consequence of killing the existing player base, but I fail to see how the use of proxies is one of them.

If the argument is that it allows people to compete on equal terms with people who have invested in their cards, that has nothing to do with the game of magic. I don't feel that Magic is a competition of who has more money, personally. It's a competition of skill and deck building.

If the argument is that it skews the metagame, the meandeck open would seem to refute that notion, and in any case, metagames are influenced by a number of factors, including region. An important skill in magic is metagaming. If you think proxies will skew the metagame, them adjust your plans accordingly.

If you love the format, you should be happy to see people playing it.

umbowta
01-14-2009, 08:45 PM
I have deleted the rant that was previously occupying this space. In the grand scheme of things, we are still just talking about Magic the Gathering and I'm ashamed that I allowed myself to become that upset by a card game. To all of you who had to waste your time reading my rant, please accept my apologies.

juventus
01-14-2009, 10:00 PM
Can someone explain the argument against proxies again? How does the use of a limited number of proxies drive away the "established" player base? I can see policies which might be used to drum up support for a format but have the unintended consequence of killing the existing player base, but I fail to see how the use of proxies is one of them.

If the argument is that it allows people to compete on equal terms with people who have invested in their cards, that has nothing to do with the game of magic. I don't feel that Magic is a competition of who has more money, personally. It's a competition of skill and deck building.

If the argument is that it skews the metagame, the meandeck open would seem to refute that notion, and in any case, metagames are influenced by a number of factors, including region. An important skill in magic is metagaming. If you think proxies will skew the metagame, them adjust your plans accordingly.

If you love the format, you should be happy to see people playing it.

Completely agreed.

The only people who would complain about proxies are those who need expensive cards to make up for lack of skill.

Smmenen
01-14-2009, 11:05 PM
Seriously, Demars. You guys all know that I have been actively promoting the Legacy format in this area for years now. I fondly recall times when you and other RIW team members would attend my events even though they were hosted at Pandemonium. I understand that Pandemonium is your/RIW's competitor and I really don't give a shit. All I care about is playing the game and promoting the Legacy format. If you thought for one second that you were fucking over Pandemonium by scheduling the same events as I'm running on the 23rd, and 24th you're wrong. I hired Dave and assembled all the prizes for the Cryptic Confusion events with my own time and money and I was hoping RIW, Meandeck, and other teams would come out to play. The Cryptic Confusion gaming chairperson and I came to RIW in mid December and asked you guys for donations. Instead you guys decide to run your own shit. Thanks.

RIW is a nationally known team with pro players in all formats and thus has 1000 times the power to attract folks to events than I would ever hope to have. It's dissapointing that you should decide to assert that authority at a time that has such a profoundly negative effect on me.

That is, indeed, disappointing. But I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume ignorance rather than malice.

St. Brian the Venerable
01-15-2009, 03:50 AM
Umbowta,

Everything you guys are criticizing RIW hobbies of is news to me.

Firstly, RIW Hobbies used to have a running monthly Vintage Tournament that was always the last weekend of the month. We have been trying to get that event up and running again for some time. Unfortunately, the last Sunday of this month is a prerelease--we didn't want to do the tournament the same weekend of the prerelease, so we moved it up one weekend.

I personally asked Pam if she would run a Sunday Vintage tournament this month, and personally suggested a Saturday Legacy tournament. She asked me to pick the weekend and I did. I can very certainly say that all of your conspiracy theories about us trying to undermine somebody else is bogus, because I picked the weekend and I had no idea that there was anything else going on. I just picked the closest weekend to the end of the month that didn't have a prerelease attached to it.

Secondly, I don't actually know who you are or even what event you are talking about! That is not meant to be a slight, and I can appreciate that you are upset there is another tournament going on the same as yours, but seriously I set this tournament up and I had no idea there was anything else going on that weekend.

I actually enjoy playing Legacy, and have been playing Vintage for a long time now. My hope is that the monthly Vintage Sunday tournament will now be coupled with a Legacy Saturday tournament. And, I hope that will continue even after the GP has come and gone. If people will show up to play, RIW hobbies is more than happy to host events, and I personally am always excited to show up and battle REAL magic formats that allow me to play with the good cards: Brainstorm, Duals, STPs, etc.

In the future, for everybody's sake I think we can do a much better job of schedualing events so that it is best for everybody.

However, to accuse RIW hobbies of intentionally trying to hurt your turnament is a little bit over the top.

If you want to blame somebody for having the same tournament as yours, blame me not the store, I scheduled the event. But, I just wanted to play some Eternal--I have no idea who you are or even what your event is...and I am 100% sure that I didn't do it to try and hurt somebody elses event. I appreciate that you are pissed, but this is certainly something that we could have discussed via pm, rather than mudslinging in the thread. Ideally, RIW is going to try and hold our events from here on out on the last weekend of the month, however in cases of local GPs, Pre-releases, or other big events that will be subject to change.

I will talk to Pam tomorrow and ask her exactly how prizes will trickle down depending upon attendance.

Cheers,
Brian

umbowta
01-15-2009, 04:10 PM
I'm cool with proxies. I'm not cool with the possibilities for dishonesty in a non-sanctioned event for such large prizes. With that in mind I would still attend if I could, however with a mindful eye for cheaters. The best thing about allowing proxies is the increase in the player base and therefore also the increase in prize pool. This is particularly good because players who need soooo many proxies will clearly be noobs to the format thereby not significantly increasing the level of competition. Like lambs to the slaughter they will come to boost the prizes for the folks who would normally win anyway.

landstill101
01-19-2009, 10:31 AM
I'm cool with proxies. I'm not cool with the possibilities for dishonesty in a non-sanctioned event for such large prizes. With that in mind I would still attend if I could, however with a mindful eye for cheaters. The best thing about allowing proxies is the increase in the player base and therefore also the increase in prize pool. This is particularly good because players who need soooo many proxies will clearly be noobs to the format thereby not significantly increasing the level of competition. Like lambs to the slaughter they will come to boost the prizes for the folks who would normally win anyway.

although he went on his crazy rant earlier, he is competly right in this post, I've been playing legacy for about 2 1/2 years now and laugh at the people considering themselves real legacy players and are complaining, it took the shop we play at 2 years to finally build up to get average 20-30 people a week and we didn't have the capability of doing something like this, I'm happy that they are trying to help out the community which I feel is the most balanced format right now. If they want to proxy then let them, it just means that they havn't tested their deck like i've tested mine, they are mostly net decking which means they don't know how to play it perfectly and many of the times do not know how to side correctly. I'm from the cleveland ohio area and right now planning on going, and hopefully taking a van full.

Isamaru
01-19-2009, 01:16 PM
ooh this thread got a lot of posts since I last checked it.

Some good arguments for proxies. It definitely could be a good thing, yes. I was mainly saying that it might be a little annoying if people are writing with a pencil/pen on the back of a MtG card since it's hard to read. Hopefully they'll use permanent marker.

I'd say you should do deck checking often, and make those checked take their proxies out of sleeves to make sure they were done on Land/unrelated cards. One possibility for cheating is proxying on the back of a supplementary sideboard card, enabling them to sneakily flip it over in the process of boarding/unboarding.

St. Brian the Venerable
01-20-2009, 04:05 AM
ooh this thread got a lot of posts since I last checked it.

Some good arguments for proxies. It definitely could be a good thing, yes. I was mainly saying that it might be a little annoying if people are writing with a pencil/pen on the back of a MtG card since it's hard to read. Hopefully they'll use permanent marker.

I'd say you should do deck checking often, and make those checked take their proxies out of sleeves to make sure they were done on Land/unrelated cards. One possibility for cheating is proxying on the back of a supplementary sideboard card, enabling them to sneakily flip it over in the process of boarding/unboarding.

There are very specific rules for proxying. You need to proxy on a basic land, and include the name, casting cost of the card, and all of the oracle text of the card.

We also don't mind, and incourage people to make their own custom proxies. For instance, a person might proxy a Black Lotus on a welding jar, while still including to write all of the necessary text--and maybe drawing their own art over the welding jar art. We just ask that people use common sense, make sure that you proxy on the front side of a card and that you include all the oracle text of the card. We have never had a problem with proxies before, for the most part people do alright with proxies. If you have any questions about whether or not your proxies are legal, we will have a judge on hand you can show them to before the event.

Isamaru
01-25-2009, 12:38 AM
Whoever the judge was at this event was almost entirely unhelpful and was quite uninformed, if not oblivious and rude. Paul Nicolo ended up fulfilling a lot of his duties, he sort of took over and did a good job (I'm not sure if he works for RIW). Overall, RIW is a nice place, but the tournament was organized really poorly, and prize support went only to Top 4, with 3 and 4 getting little.

As for the breakdown, it was quite standard. Nobody played anything original except me. We only had 1 combo (Belcher) and the rest were aggro or the usual control and aggro control.

Patrick
01-25-2009, 02:27 PM
Whoever the judge was at this event was almost entirely unhelpful and was quite uninformed, if not oblivious and rude. Paul Nicolo ended up fulfilling a lot of his duties, he sort of took over and did a good job (I'm not sure if he works for RIW). Overall, RIW is a nice place, but the tournament was organized really poorly, and prize support went only to Top 4, with 3 and 4 getting little.

As for the breakdown, it was quite standard. Nobody played anything original except me. We only had 1 combo (Belcher) and the rest were aggro or the usual control and aggro control.

I'm interested what your sole "original idea" was. Either way, the judge there was none other than National Champion and resident pain in the ass Micheal Jacob. I agree that he's rude, though he generally made good rulings. He did make it apparent that he didn't want to be there or be judging a Legacy event. Prize support was fine, I think T4 split $75 each in credit, and there was a free event if you scrubbed out. The structure of the event was top notch, even if the logistics weren't as hot.

St. Brian the Venerable
01-28-2009, 02:35 AM
I'm interested what your sole "original idea" was. Either way, the judge there was none other than National Champion and resident pain in the ass Micheal Jacob. I agree that he's rude, though he generally made good rulings. He did make it apparent that he didn't want to be there or be judging a Legacy event. Prize support was fine, I think T4 split $75 each in credit, and there was a free event if you scrubbed out. The structure of the event was top notch, even if the logistics weren't as hot.

We ended up giving out 75 to second and fifty a piece to third and forth. The top four decided to split it in addition to the Mox Ruby.

Smmenen
01-28-2009, 09:53 AM
I'm interested what your sole "original idea" was. Either way, the judge there was none other than National Champion and resident pain in the ass Micheal Jacob. I agree that he's rude, though he generally made good rulings. He did make it apparent that he didn't want to be there or be judging a Legacy event. Prize support was fine, I think T4 split $75 each in credit, and there was a free event if you scrubbed out. The structure of the event was top notch, even if the logistics weren't as hot.


Yeah, sort of embarrassing that the best player in the room was a judge.

Soldar
01-28-2009, 10:12 AM
I haven't seen a relative metagame breakdown yet, but this is roughly what it looked like:

30 players

1 Goblins
2 Aggro Loam
1 Armageddon Stax
1 Belcher
1 Cephalid Breakfast
1 Affinity
1 Berserk Stompy
1 BoroSligh
2 Meathooks
1 Vial Horror

16-18 Threshold, Landstill, Dreadstill variants

I only saw 1 Dreadstill (but feel free to correct me), and plenty of Landstill/Threshold. Lots of Counterbalance, which is to be expected, but a surprisingly small amount of combo. I should have done more scouting to get a better breakdown.

I was 10th with Aggro-loam, and played against:
Uwgb Landstill 2-1
RB Goblins 1-2 (I punted game 3, hard, and he top 8'ed)
UGw Threshold 2-1
UWg Landstill 1-2 (Also top 8'ed)
Breakfast 2-1

Kilz88
01-28-2009, 12:03 PM
I love how the Meandeck legacy tournament is on sundays. It is the only way I can attend and I would probably be driving a few people. If it was possible to make these future events happen on a sunday, it would be fantastic. As for the proxies, I don't really care. I feel the same as umbowta, let the slaughter commence.

landstill101
01-29-2009, 10:52 AM
I haven't seen a relative metagame breakdown yet, but this is roughly what it looked like:

30 players

1 Goblins
2 Aggro Loam
1 Armageddon Stax
1 Belcher
1 Cephalid Breakfast
1 Affinity
1 Berserk Stompy
1 BoroSligh
2 Meathooks
1 Vial Horror

16-18 Threshold, Landstill, Dreadstill variants

I only saw 1 Dreadstill (but feel free to correct me), and plenty of Landstill/Threshold. Lots of Counterbalance, which is to be expected, but a surprisingly small amount of combo. I should have done more scouting to get a better breakdown.

I was 10th with Aggro-loam, and played against:
Uwgb Landstill 2-1
RB Goblins 1-2 (I punted game 3, hard, and he top 8'ed)
UGw Threshold 2-1
UWg Landstill 1-2 (Also top 8'ed)
Breakfast 2-1


30 players

1 Goblins
2 Aggro Loam
1 Armageddon Stax
1 Belcher
1 Cephalid Breakfast
1 Affinity
1 Berserk Stompy
1 BoroSligh
2 Meathooks
1 Vial Horror
2 ITF
4 4 color thresh(from what I saw)
2 black thresh(from what I saw)
4 landstill decks of different varieties
1 dreadstill
1 fairies deck(topped 8 I think)
1 threshold with chrome mox

Not sure what the last couple are


EDIT: for later when I get out of class

umbowta
01-29-2009, 12:25 PM
1 Berserk Stompy What!!? Someone there was playing Berserk Stompy and it wasn't me!!? MasterShake, can you confirm this? The sky must be falling or something cuz I thought I was the only one around here crazy enough to own a playset of Zerks...wait...I am. Damn proxies. :frown:

St. Brian the Venerable
01-29-2009, 03:22 PM
What!!? Someone there was playing Berserk Stompy and it wasn't me!!? MasterShake, can you confirm this? The sky must be falling or something cuz I thought I was the only one around here crazy enough to own a playset of Zerks...wait...I am. Damn proxies. :frown:

Actually, it was some kid--and, he had all four Berserks! No proxy.

Smmenen
01-29-2009, 03:41 PM
4 4 color thresh(from what I saw)

I'm pretty sure that's not the case. I believe that there were fewer 4 c Thresh. Most I saw were 3c. Also, the Chrome Mox thresh was one of the two 4c versions I know of.