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Skeggi
01-19-2009, 04:08 AM
Hello all, a couple of months ago I made some changes on my Armageddon Stax deck, making it more suitable in a meta where Dreadstill and Team America (and other aggro in general) rule the scene. Originally I've posted the list in the Armageddon Stax thread, but since it acts differently in many ways, I was requested by a few people to start a new thread. So here goes :)

The major difference between Armageddon Stax and Dutch Stax is that Dutch Stax has a lower Armageddon count, no creatures and depends strongly on Moat and Humility.

Anyway, I'll give you my latest list:

Dutch Stax, by Team ADHD --aka $keg$tax, RichManStax. With red splash.


4 Moat
4 Humility
3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Armageddon
2 Ravages of War (running 3 Armageddon is also fine)
3 Smokestack
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Trinisphere
4 Mox Diamond
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Oblivion Ring
1 Plateau
3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
9 Plains
3 Flagstones of Trokair


Sideboard Suggestion:


3 Boil
3 Sphere of Law
2 Wrath of God
2 Powder Keg
2 Trinisphere
3 Pithing Needle


Mordel (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/member.php?u=5138)'s list (no splash):

Richpeoplestax.dec


3 Mishra's Factory
3 Ancient Tomb
1 Kor Haven
3 Wasteland
4 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones of Trokair
8 Plains

3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Moat
4 Mox Diamond
3 Humility
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Armageddon
4 Smokestack

Sideboard:


1 Oblivion Ring
3 Powder Keg
3 Sphere of Law
3 Defense Grid
2 Wrath of God
3 Tormod's Crypt


Update:
Another list, no splash:

Jedis Dutch Staxx by Christopher Johnsen


3 Armageddon

4 Humility
4 Moat
3 Oblivion Ring

3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
3 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere

3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Dust Bowl
3 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Mishra's Factory
8 Plains
2 Wasteland


Sideboard:


1 Wrath of God
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Runed Halo
1 Sphere of Law
4 Defense Grid
2 Powder Keg
3 Tormod's Crypt


Card choice explanation:

Moat and Humility create in an aggro-match ups a soft-lock by themselves, and a hard lock when they are both on the table.

Elspeth, Knight-Errant has really great synergy with both Moat and Humility and is a good win-condition.

The low count on Trinispheres is because people can often play around it. It's actually only good against combo and therefor I only placed 2 maindeck. The reason that there are 2 maindeck is because it does create a hardlock with Smokestack out.

Only 6 double-mana lands and 9 Plains: this is largely a meta-choice. My meta has quite some Wasteland, Back to Basics and Blood Moon-effects. Also, Dutch Stax has alot of cards costing :2::w::w:; so we're desperate for that second white mana.

Plateau and Boils: against stuff like MUC I would prefer Defense Grid, but MUC isn't the only deck that plays alot of islands: Dreadstill, Team America, Threshold, Landstill, Faeries, Merfolk; they all rely heavily on blue mana. And they don't always counter everything you cast, they also cast pretty big threats. Boil is often an unexpected surprise for them. I also used to play Red Elemental Blast, but that only turned out great once.

Wrath of God: Goblins, for instance, often play a green splash for Krosan Grip nowadays. When they can't attack you because you have Moat and Humility, they simply have to build up their army and Grip the Moat. The Goblins may only be 1/1 but a huge swarm of them pack quite a punch still.

Powder Keg: I used to use Engineered Explosives in this slot, to blow up stuff like a Dreadnought. But then I met Gaddock Teeg. This little guy really kills the deck and must be dealt with asap. Engineered Explosives can't, because it has X in it's cost. So in with the Powder Kegs. When you know you have a possible Gaddock Teeg against you, try and resolve a Humility asap because you have no chance for that once he hits the table. A resolved Teeg can be tackled with Oblivion Rings and Powder Kegs.

Current problems:

Dutch Stax basically has some problems which are also found in Armageddon Stax. Being a prison deck without draw or tutors, we're very topdeck dependant. That makes us vulnerable to heavy control like MUC and heavy discard like Eva Green or The Rock. Also, Stax needs alot of permanents on the board, so cards like Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives and Powder Keg really hurt us.

The main thing Dutch Stax is really aching for is carddraw. The best candidate so far to accomplish this is Horizon Canopy. 2 or 3 copies of Horizon Canopy would also allow a light green splash, allowing City of Solitude, Choke and Compost, which are good against decks Stax traditionally has a problem with (the red splash for Boil would be dropped ofcourse).

Update:
The 'Jedis Dutch Staxx' list by Christopher Johnsen runs 2 Horizon Canopy, purely for the draw.

Notable results:

2nd place in a 41-people tournament. List (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23647). (Black splash!)
2nd place in a 24-people tournament. List (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23225).
Dutch Stax took 2nd place (http://web17.accelerated.de/turniere/2009-01-04/legacydeck.htm) at a 70-person tourney in Germany...
3rd place at a 31-people tournament: Report (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=299815&postcount=1112)

Glorfindel
01-19-2009, 04:34 AM
Very nice, I hope to complete my playset of Moats, Humilities and Elspeths so I can play some tournaments with it.

Aggro_zombies
01-19-2009, 05:59 AM
With the foray into red, I'm wondering if Ajani Vengeant (or whatever his name is) wouldn't be worth looking into. Pinpoint removal is good, I hear, as is additional land destruction.

Richard
01-19-2009, 07:23 AM
Skeggi, I like your deck a lot!
Nice to see someone promoting the Netherlands, haha.

A bold idea: Why not cut the Smokestacks (in a Dreadstill/TA meta)?
I would say: -3 Smokestack, +1 Armageddon, +2 Trinisphere
And maybe then you can go: -1 Land, +1 Ajani Vengeant?

Trinisphere is not only good against combo, it buys you time to drop humility/moat against aggro or to play an armageddon effect against control.

Btw.
I think I played against you at the LCQ Dutch Masters, you're Joost if I remember correctly, very kind player!

Richard ten Brink (MUC)

Skeggi
01-19-2009, 07:40 AM
With the foray into red, I'm wondering if Ajani Vengeant (or whatever his name is) wouldn't be worth looking into. Pinpoint removal is good, I hear, as is additional land destruction.

I've tested with Ajani. He was actually the primary reason to try a red splash. But the poor guy moved from maindeck to the sideboard to the collector's binder. There are simply better cards that fill his slot. He has been amazing occasionally, but it was very situational.



A bold idea: Why not cut the Smokestacks (in a Dreadstill/TA meta)?
I would say: -3 Smokestack, +1 Armageddon, +2 Trinisphere
And maybe then you can go: -1 Land, +1 Ajani Vengeant?


Smokestack is still a strong card that eventually grabs your opponent by his balls and tears them off. Especially with Elspeth and Crucible you can easy keep it at 2 and lock your opponent down. The replacements you mentioned are situationally better, but in general Smokestack still is an awesome card.


I think I played against you at the LCQ Dutch Masters
Yeah that was me. I totally failed there though :)

Maveric78f
01-19-2009, 08:14 AM
17 W sources are enough ? I mean that Threshold who plays 17/18 lands does not expect to find 2 lands without cantrips. The problem begin that you don't play cantrips.

I also think that you don't need 4*crucible. 2 or 3 should be enough. As said before I'm quite sure that 4*trinisphere is necessary. As you have a strategy a lot based on mana denial, don't you think that Moat would be nicely replaced (at least partially) with Ghostly Prison. I mean that Ghostly Prison + Humility is as much a combo as Moat + Humility. Or at least in SB, don't play WoG over GP. I will finish the MD by saying that your land repartition is a bit surprising (I would rather play 3*4 lands than 4*3).

About the SB, why red, why Boil ? Why not green and Tsunami and Quiet Disrepair (so good against burn, but bad against deed). Against black you could play Compost too. I guess that you don't want to rely too much on green, but anyway, I was wondering...

Skeggi
01-19-2009, 08:32 AM
17 W sources are enough ? I mean that Threshold who plays 17/18 lands does not expect to find 2 lands without cantrips. The problem begin that you don't play cantrips.
Yes they are...often enough :wink:.


I also think that you don't need 4*crucible. 2 or 3 should be enough.
I've been thinking of dropping the Crucible count too. But it's just too good with Mox, Smokestack, Wasteland and Armageddon. 3 may do it though, go ahead and try I'd say.

As said before I'm quite sure that 4*trinisphere is necessary.
That depends on the meta I guess. Trinisphere really is something against combo in my opinion.

As you have a strategy a lot based on mana denial
No I don't. I rely on the fact that creatures can't do anything anymore.

don't you think that Moat would be nicely replaced (at least partially) with Ghostly Prison.
That would make the deck Armageddon-dependant. I've been there. The deck was called Armageddon Stax. It really gets pwned by Thoughtseize and Force of Will.

I mean that Ghostly Prison + Humility is as much a combo as Moat + Humility.
No it's not. Moat makes sure creatures cannot attack. The :2: for Ghostly Prison is often payable. Given, most of the time with a Humility and a Ghostly Prison in play the damage won't be alot. But there will still be damage. It can take quite a while to draw Elspeth. Also, on its own Moat is better than Ghostly Prison. So is Humility.

Or at least in SB, don't play WoG over GP.
WoG deals with swarms. Very nice. It also clears the board which is sitting ducks behind a Moat so your Smokestack can finally kick in.

I will finish the MD by saying that your land repartition is a bit surprising (I would rather play 3*4 lands than 4*3).
So how would you do this?


About the SB, why red, why Boil ? Why not green and Tsunami and Quiet Disrepair (so good against burn, but bad against deed). Against black you could play Compost too. I guess that you don't want to rely too much on green, but anyway, I was wondering...
Boil is instant, Tsunami isn't. The rest is sub-par. I may be inclined to actually go with a green splash instead of red, but then because of Choke, Exploration and Horizon Canopy. And yes, then I will probably also consider Compost :smile:.

Maveric78f
01-19-2009, 09:12 AM
So how would you do this?
Make a choice and know that you won't randomly encounter the card you've cut. I don't know which choice is the right one though (even if Mishra sounds poor).

Reading your answers, it looks to me that your basic strategy is to land Moat and pray that your opponent does not have any solution. First I thought it was more subtile: prevent your opponent from playing any spell and THEN land a moat. In that case, I find Ghostly Prison far better. And you would not be dependant anymore on finding WW. You have 16 cards that make GP as good as Moat (if not better): crucible (+mishra or wasteland), smokestack (2 or 3 turns later), armageddon, Espeth and ... another GP. You also have 4 cards that deal with big attackers (Oblivion Ring). All that makes me think that GP is probably better, or at least that a split 2/2 or 2/3 would be smart.

About the SB, I think that against swarm, you should not try to play Stacks (+ WoG) anymore but maybe Magus (in SB) or additionnal GP (if you don't play 4 MD).

Skeggi
01-19-2009, 09:35 AM
Make a choice and know that you won't randomly encounter the card you've cut. I don't know which choice is the right one though (even if Mishra sounds poor).
Mishra's and Wasteland are both very good and should certainly not be completely cut. Whether 3 is the right number for them is debatable. 3 Flagstones is the correct number in this deck: 2 or less is bad, 4 is too much. The double mana lands I've cut from the traditional 7/8 to six, because they don't produce white mana and have significant drawbacks.


Reading your answers, it looks to me that your basic strategy is to land Moat and pray that your opponent does not have any solution.No :wink:

First I thought it was more subtile: prevent your opponent from playing any spell and THEN land a moat.Correct! However, this often results in Chalice@1, Chalice@2, Smokestack, or Recurring Wasteland to keep them off green.

In that case, I find Ghostly Prison far better.It's not. Ghostly Prison requires Armageddon to function. Even with the Armageddon count at 5, you often only draw 1 which gets discarded or countered.

Anyway, all your suggestions lead to Armageddon Stax, a build that has proven itself to be quite good, but certainly has its flaws. Dutch Stax also has flaws, but in my meta they are fewer than Armageddon Stax's. I've explained in the Armageddon Stax thread that the deck is simply too Armageddon-dependant and thereby not consistent.

Shawon
01-19-2009, 11:04 AM
Also, keep in mind that Ghostly Prison doesn't stop creatures from attacking Elspeth. Ghostly Prisons say "can't attack you"

georgjorge
01-19-2009, 11:21 AM
In that case, I find Ghostly Prison far better.


The ONLY situations where Prison would be better than Moat is a) against flyers b) when you don't have WW. In all other situations, it's worse or just as good (well, I guess it's also better against incompetent opponents who pay 2 to attack even when they should use their mana to play spells, but we can't count on meeting those except when testing on MWS).

Mordel
01-19-2009, 01:30 PM
It makes sense that this deck is in n&d right now, but it is a shame at the same time because the deck is fairly well-developed and tuned, but it has flown under a lot of peoples' radar due being discussed on the geddon stax thread...here come the same questions, suggestions and critiques all over again =/

I am going to have to disagree the muc having an advantage in a match up even against my build:



Richpeoplestax.dec

// Lands
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
1 [NE] Kor Haven
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
8 [4E] Plains (1)

// Creatures
3 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Spells
4 [LG] Moat
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [TE] Humility
3 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
3 [B] Armageddon
4 [US] Smokestack

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
SB: 3 [REW] Powder Keg
SB: 3 [OD] Sphere of Law
SB: 3 [UL] Defense Grid
SB: 2 [5E] Wrath of God
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt


They have to try to counter virtually every single spell and that just isn't plausible sometimes. I have an extremely good record against muc right now. Maybe I have been playing terrible players though.

Either way, aside from individual metagame tweaks and tremendous sideboard tech this deck is pretty much done being developed imo...it just needs to start puting up results, which may take a while due to the four moats.

Mantis
01-19-2009, 01:34 PM
Also, keep in mind that Ghostly Prison doesn't stop creatures from attacking Elspeth. Ghostly Prisons say "can't attack you"Is this really true?

Mordel
01-19-2009, 02:32 PM
Is this really true?

Yes'm.

Arsenal
01-19-2009, 03:17 PM
@ Mordel

RE: the MUC vs. Stax (Dutch or Armageddon), I think you've just been playing against bad MUC pilots. In no way do I, as the MUC player, want/need to counter EVERY single spell as you stated. In fact, half the spells in your deck don't matter to MUC. The only "must counter" spells you play are Armageddon, Smokestack, Humility (if MUC build is playing bounce, then not even this), Elsepth, and maybe Oblivion Ring (only in unique situations). Everything else isn't worth countering as (a.) it will not affect MUC in any relevant way (why would I counter Moat?), or (b.) I can simply reset the board if some of your permanents do resolve.

Back to Basics, run as a 4 of, shuts down 18 of your 26 lands, greatly impeding your ability to play your spells. From there, the MUC player should be countering the "must counter" spells you do try to play, and letting the rest resolve. MUC will bury you under actual card advantage as your virtual card advantage engine largely unaffects MUC.

Seriously, try to find better MUC pilots playing better builds, because it doesn't sound like your MUC pilots are doing things correctly. Either that, or you've gotten the god hand a lot of times. Meh, I don't agree with your assessment that MUC doesn't have an advantage over Stax.

Mordel
01-19-2009, 04:06 PM
I think you left 3sphere out of the must counters, which shuts off one of muc's best cards.

I should try to find better muc players, but luckily muc is about as poorly represented as stax. I am actually not really concerned about the dedicated permission match whatsoever.

I don't go to big events really, but if I did, I would be quite happy with beating the tar out the more popular decks in the format. The biggest problem presented is that the fundamental strategy of X stax is an inherently flawed strategy when it comes to facing muc aside from landing a turbo smoker, which I have done before and this has completely fucked them (resolving a second turn smoker against muc has always struck me as fluky).

Worrying about a match that my deck really has no business winning strikes me as very stupid. If I win it, that's awesome and sometimes amazing, if I don't, I am not very surprised.

In defense of muc, I tend to lump it in with more permission-based dreadstill decks, which is bad because these decks forgo hard counters and trappings of muc for CB/Top, stifles and other such stuff that improves its match against just about everything else, other than X stax. Which is sort of an ironic thing if you think about it.

With how extremely good some of this deck's matchups are, it would almost be a crime for it to perform similarly against storm combo and muc because you'd have a "best deck" on your hands quite possibly. I am sort of back peddling, but in my defense: I did point out that I have quite possibly been playing against terrible pilots.

Skeggi
01-20-2009, 03:28 AM
I should try to find better muc players, but luckily muc is about as poorly represented as stax. I am actually not really concerned about the dedicated permission match whatsoever.
Well, in the Dutch meta, we have a guy named Fahad Saleh. He may just be the best MUC player in the world, he was so good with the deck, that he inspired many other players to pick up MUC, and now MUC is in the Dutch meta a DTB. I can tell you, more and more players in the Netherlands have stepped up to play it. Only a handful are actually good with the deck, but when they are, they're almost impossible to beat (with Stax that is).

On to developping Dutch Stax. In the opening post I've dropped a few ideas about splashing green instead of red. I've come up with a list and am willing to test the following:

Dutch Stax, green splash, Team ADHD


4 Moat
4 Humility
3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Armageddon
2 Ravages of War (running 3 Armageddon is also fine)
2 Smokestack
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Exploration
4 Mox Diamond
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Horizon Canopy
4 City of Traitors
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
8 Plains
3 Flagstones of Trokair


Sideboard idea:


4 Trinisphere
3 Choke
2 Compost
3 Pithing Needle
3 City of Solitude


I've dropped all the Trinispheres to the sideboard because it's really only good against combo. It's not good against MUC because they play 24 land and can simply pay the mana (that's also why they can recover pretty good after an Armageddon).

I've also dropped a maindeck Smokestack (I think we'll live), a Plains and the Ancient Tombs.

In return I get a draw engine named Horizon Canopy + Exploration + Crucible of Worlds. The working is obvious I guess...

Exploration is ofcourse not so good against a Chalice@1, but in my games I've noticed that I prefer Chalice@2 most of the time anyway.

I'm not sure if these are the correct numbers for everything, perhaps some 4-ofs can now be lowered because of the draw-engine, I don't know. I guess I'll first have to test and see if this won't be a total fiasco :wink:

Maveric78f
01-20-2009, 04:20 AM
I think that you'll want at least 1 savannah that could be fetched with flagstone. I also think that you should stick with late game green spell (meaning no exploration) because you can't rely on having green mana and exploration at the same time in your opening hand.

Skeggi
01-20-2009, 04:23 AM
I think that you'll want at least 1 savannah that could be fetched with flagstone. I also think that you should stick with late game green spell (meaning no exploration) because you can't rely on having green mana and exploration at the same time in your opening hand.

The Savannah is a good idea, I'm inclined to try that. Exploration however, is the key to a working draw engine. It's something I was always aching for in Stax. Without Exploration, we may as well cut the entire green splash. 4 Horizon Canopy and 4 Mox Diamond (and perhaps that Savannah) may give enough green mana. You don't need it in your opening hand though; would be better if it could, but you can't expect to have Exploration in your opening hand anyway.

keidot
02-09-2009, 11:49 PM
I've had Dutch Stax built since this thread was started oddly enough and I've been testing a build that was very close to the original posted build with minor splashes here and there. Though it's been a few weeks since you last posted Skeggi, I was wondering how the green splash for Exploration has turned out. I've been testing blue splashes mostly but the cards I've been testing have been fairly lack luster in effect. To name them, I've tried Intuition, Academy Ruins, Thirst For Knowledge and Jace Beleren. The only card I want to make work is Jace but the double blue is tremendously hard to cast unless the mana base is reworked with more than just a single Tundra that is fetched by Flagstones of Trokair.

In regards to the green splash, did you ever try running Sylvan Library? I noticed you said you tend to set Chalice@2 first instead of @1. Is this why you'd favor Exploration over it or is it simply the idea hadn't come to mind? All in all, I enjoy the deck thoroughly and look forward to any improvements it might have.

Mordel
02-10-2009, 02:26 AM
I have been going for absolutely no splash and have been happy with the deck over all. The deck has basically exchanged the traditionally less favorable aggro control matches of geddon stax for slightly less favorable swarm aggro matches, which seem to be rare anyway.

If this deck manages to somehow make matches against random jank and aggro good, we will have a definitive best deck in the format basically, which I find unlikely.

I think the deck is about as good as it is going to get. Explorations seem extremely awkward in that if you actually need to get a one point CotV on the table, you will have four dead cards in your deck, which seems to really go against the grain for me. Sylvan library seems like a good potential card to run, but I really don't like the idea of any kind of splash really. I would sooner run Well of Lost Dreams or Scroll Rack than do a splash thus far.

Skeggi
02-10-2009, 03:14 AM
In regards to the green splash, did you ever try running Sylvan Library? I noticed you said you tend to set Chalice@2 first instead of @1. Is this why you'd favor Exploration over it or is it simply the idea hadn't come to mind? All in all, I enjoy the deck thoroughly and look forward to any improvements it might have.

The green splash plays really janky. Often it just doesn´t work. I can advise against it. So far, no splash and red splash have proven best for me. And yeah I did think of Sylvan Library, but indeed with regards to Chalice@2 it would be unplayable. I did try a blue splash a while ago, but that was with normal Armageddon Stax. Perhaps I could revive the idea for Dutch Stax, see how it goes.

Mordel
02-10-2009, 05:33 AM
Well of Knowledge may be something I goof around with. It is really hard to figure out what to take out for it though.

http://www.wizards.com/global/images/magic/general/Well_of_Knowledge.jpg

The opponent being able to use it seems like a very minimal drawback considering that it needs to be done during their draw phase and opens up them up for play errors and wasted turns.

I am not really expecting much from it, but it seems like an interesting card to use because I often find myself with far more mana than I need around [my] mid game and burning two mana during my turn to draw more pieces or a win condition while my opponent is trying to deal with a CotV and/or 3sphere with a smoker or whatever seems like something I may want to explore a bit.

Again, I don't think this is amazing tech or anything, it is just a card that I noticed that fills the draw gap without needing a splash, is uneffected by 3sphere and CotV and can create problems for an opponent...it should be noted that it uses the same amount of mana as crucible and land card(tired atm) too.

Time will tell if I ever get the balls to test it, but even in a situation when I don't have much going on and may be in a losing position, the deck's mana base is likely to be better-suited to use it without much difficulty casting whatever is draw after.

keidot
02-12-2009, 07:01 AM
Dutch Stax places 2 in a field of 24. The list can be found here (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23225). I have nothing to really comment on it as it follows the general idea outlined by Skeggi. The only item that really caught my eye was the Dust Bowl for a Wasteland. I can see the effectiveness of it when you draw heavy land for a pseudo waste-lock but it still seems weak.

Skeggi
02-12-2009, 07:07 AM
Nice find. That list looks pretty solid. I love how he still managed to keep the 4 Trinispheres maindeck. He also cut to 3 Crucible of Worlds; seems to be working for him. I can understand the preference of 1 Dust Bowl over a Wasteland if you dropped a Crucible.

Mordel
02-12-2009, 01:36 PM
I thought it was a japanese list at first with the singleton bullets with no method of searching for them.

Looks like a pretty good list otherwise, but I hate seeing people basically wasting sideboard slots on singleton cards.

Anusien
02-12-2009, 02:08 PM
Have you considered Winter Orb? It's a card I love in a lot of similar decks.

SuperBean
02-12-2009, 03:27 PM
I'm messing around with a very minor green splash right now, and it has proved to be great through testing so far. Anyway, here is my list if anyone is curious:

// Spells

3x Armageddon
1x Life from the Loam

// Enchantments

3x Humility
3x Moat
2x Oblivion Ring

// Artifacts

4x Mox Diamond
4x Crucible of Worlds
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Smokestack
3x Trinisphere

// Lands

6x Plains
3x Flagstones of Trokair
3x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traitors
3x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland
2x Savannah
2x Horizon Canopy
2x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1x Dust Bowl

// Plainswalkers

2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Sideboard

3x Krosan Grip
3x Pithing Needle
3x Tormod's Crypt
3x Sphere of Resistance
1x Trinisphere
2x Suppression Field

Mordel
02-12-2009, 03:31 PM
The converted casting cost of two is a bit sketchy for a main deck card and I have incredible problems fitting extra copies of smokestack, 3sphere and such into the deck and still manage to have a few geddons to boot.

The only forseeable way that I can see winter orb being fit in is by outright removing geddon, which I don't see as viable because while only two to three geddons are run, they are still extremely valuable to have,

What matches would geddon be shoring up? Combo can just ignore them, they are pretty easy for rock to blow up and permission decks can play around them to an extent because the way I win against them a lot of the time(just me here, not speaking on behalf of others) is playing more stuff in one turn than they can counter/deal with and winning on the wings of attrition. Winter orb seems like it would make the latter more difficult because counters are typically cheaper than the stuff I use to get them out of their hand. Maybe I am missing something though.

Skeggi
02-16-2009, 10:36 AM
Have you considered Winter Orb? It's a card I love in a lot of similar decks.
I don't see why Winter Orb would be any good in this deck.

@Superbean:
How is that singleton Life from the Loam working out for you? I haven't tried it because as far as I know, the things that makes it totally broken: Eternal Witness and cycleland are unplayable in this deck. You have nothing to recur what you have dredges (besides land, duh) and you lack Chalice@2. Plus, if you drop a Geddon, you have no mana to cast it.

The low count of Humility, Moat and Elspeth are also something I'd worry about.

When splashing green, Choke is probably a good sideboard option. If you're not a fan, try City of Solitude (be careful, this stops Factories from being able to chumpblock).

Also, you don't want Suppression Field when you're playing Factory, Wasteland, Dustbowl, Elspeth or Horizon Canopy.

keidot
02-22-2009, 07:56 AM
I've been picking up cards here and there to attempt to improve my deck and so far I've ended up with this.

Lands
8 Plains
3 Flagstones
3 City of Traitors
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Horizon Canopy

Artifacts
4 Mox Diamond
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Smokestack

Enchantments
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Moat
3 Humility

Spells
2 Armageddon
1 Ravages of War
1 Replenish

Planeswalker
3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

I've been playing with Replenish for a few months (since I saw it posted in one of Skeggi's initial Dutch Stax list in the Armageddon Stax thread) and have been playing 2 Canopies since around that same time as well. While the Canopies have been great every time I draw them as various amounts of play data and deck lists have confirmed for most people, the singleton Replenish offers interesting lines of play. The times I was splashing blue for Intuition and Thirst for Knowledge, having Replenish in hand led to stronger board states from out of the blue. As well, the extra fodder it can provide to an active Smokestack allows longer stalls as well.

I had a curious thought that is fairly heretical but I wanted to pose it here amongst other players of the deck than pose it amongst my friends who dabble in eternal formats. Is Mishra's Factory needed given a configuration of 4 Moat and 4 Humility? Factory does provide a pseudo fog effect against non-trampling non-flying creatures amongst a myriad of other uses. As well, under Humility, he can block any of your opponents 1/1s with little effort on your part. With Elspeth in play, the clock provided by Factory is one to two turns faster than swinging with a soldier token. Also, it has the strength of a recurring blocker through Crucible.

With these known benefits put forth, my issues with Factory's are as follows.

Turn 2 activations for blocking purposes will most commonly occur versus goblins in response to a Turn 1 Lackey. Turn 3-5 activations means hands were kept with minimal to no prison effects and activations are made to block small men in order to stall until you can hopefully draw a relevant spell. These hands will also be fairly mana heavy in order to afford the loss of an early game mana source. Turn 6-X activations are the best quality of activations but are still problematic because activation means either an inability to draw Moat/Oblivion Ring and a chump block is needed to buy time or Humility was (possibly) played and is being used to minimize damage from an abundance of small men. If Dutch Stax gets the plays it wants, it'll optimally drop back to back Humility and Moat with the order depending on board state. With a strong board lock, the faster clock provided by Factory is irrelevant unless your opponent has a top deck which you're not prepared for.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm advocating for dropping Factories to pick up cards that are a bit more board controlling to compensate for some of the problems that Factory fails to shore up. Specifically, I'm advocating for Maze of Ith and Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale to work their ways into the deck.
I acknowledge that each of these cards fail to tap for mana which translate to hands that will be mulliganed more because an inability to dig for more mana sources and lock pieces quickly and efficiently.

In other words, an opening hand with City of Traitors/Ancient tomb, Mishra's Factory and Horizon Canopy can lead to a myriad of plays. It enables early game Armageddons, can drop all artifact lock pieces and gives you the option of using your factory to chump block while still having the mana available to cast Crucible when drawn. Comparitively, an opening hand City of Traitors/Ancient Tomb, Maze/Tabernacle and Canopy can either be very strong or very weak depending on what you're facing. In match-ups where you'd prefer Maze of Ith to be seen, you've theoretically freed up an additional mana each turn. This in turn means being able to cast Oblivion Ring and Crucible on your turn and still be able to have a strong defensive position. With Tabernacle in play, your opponents plays become heavily taxed allowing you more time to establish board state to try and control the game. Using Tabernacle as a defensive option follows the same line of thought as Maze in terms of freeing up mana to use on your turn as well.

Or maybe I'm just crazy.

Regardless, food for thought and would appreciate discussing the matter.

Skeggi
02-23-2009, 03:33 AM
You have a valid point regarding Mishra's Factory. I'm doubting it as well, but I do not think simply replacing them by Mazes of Ith or Tabernacles would be the answer; since these lands don't make any mana. I think Blinkmoth Nexus would be a more viable sollution, and it also kills a Lackey :cool:. It just doesn't kill it twice unless you have a Crucible.

I like the idea of Intuition and Replenish though, although I fear it's a bit slow, the power of it is obvious.

keidot
02-23-2009, 08:14 AM
I agree on the point of Blinkmoth Nexus simply for the fact that Tombstalker represents a very dangerous clock for this deck. It forces us to draw two of our three possible enchantments and either one will do little to a turn one or turn two Tombstalker unless we can respond with a following turn O. Ring or Humility. Blinkmoth gives us an extra turn to hopefully draw something relevant. However, this argument pushes us back to Maze of Ith being a legitimate card in this particular situation.

On that note, the point of Maze and Tabernacle's inability to make mana naturally is a serious point and not one fixed easily. The only plausible ways I can think of doing this would be to A) Cut a number of cards to fit in a combination Riftstone Portals and Intuitions/Compulsive Research/Thirst For Knowledge or B) Run Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. The former is detrimental to the entire stability of the deck because it would require to cut at least five cards which inevitably are prison cards to make your utility land produce mana. However, if you're able to make three mana, there's little reason to desire this effect unless you need that additional white mana source to play Moat/Humility. Even then, this effect takes two turns to set up which could mean the difference between a win or loss. Turning to the latter, we're presented with a very different set of options. Being able to simply draw and play Urborg could mean mana jumps of 1->3 or 2->4 since it is very unlikely hands will be kept of Utility Land + Mana Producing Land. This means you can still play to Stax cost curve early and not have to waste both turns and card slots to try and set up for Riftstone Portal bolstered mana base. In support of this black 'splash', one card comes to mind that will help this deck immensely is another plainswalker, namely Liliana Vess.

Before we simply scoff at the idea of a 5cc plainswalker, let's mull the idea over in our heads for a bit. If Vess would be played in the deck, it would sit high and mighty at the top of our curve. It will most likely not be played on Turn 3 which is the earliest we would likely be able to play the card (Tomb/City+Mox Diamond+Scrubland/Urborg+Land) because it will find itself victim to creatures, turning it into a 5cc Imperial Seal. This card will be played however in conjunction with Elspeth and other key prison elements in the midgame to help Stax push into the end game with back breaking set-ups and plays. It's constantly being posted in both Dutch and Armageddon Stax that they wish for card draw because they have a problem finding lock pieces. This is partially due to the fact that Stax runs an abundance of mana sources in an effort to consistently play it's 3cc and 4cc lock elements within the first two turns (i.e. Mox Diamond). The benefits of draw are immense as it helps push plus the sometimes never ending pockets of land to find critical cards but it also serves to lock us out that turn from being able to resolve said threat assuming the proper card has been drawn. Intuition is a step in the proper direction because it gives you what you need, to some degree. Playing Intuition in Stax warps the deck into trying to utilize Academy Ruins which I feel is a bad idea as the tempo loss from Academy Ruin activation puts us back two critical turns.

A good example of this is being stuck at four mana but needing a Crucible down to set up for an Armageddon. To see the problem with Academy Ruins, we'll select a double Crucible/Academy Ruins stack and have our friendly opponent give us Academy Ruins like a champ. Assuming we haven't had a land drop, we play Academy Ruins and pass turn. During our upkeep, we'll tap our Academy Ruins to place a Crucible on top, draw it and then pass turn again because were unfortunately stuck at two mana and our draw was replaced with Crucible. The following turn, we play Crucible and, if we're lucky, possibly top decked a two mana producer, tossed it into play and played Armageddon. Otherwise, we'll be forced to pass turn again to play Armageddon which at this point took us four turns to resolve because we wanted Crucible in play so we could recover faster. However, at this juncture, it would have been better to just cast Armageddon that first turn and expect to draw more mana sources than your opponent rather then spending time getting Crucible into play because it's unlikely your opponent was sitting there twiddling his thumbs.

If your retort to that little Intuition bit was 'But Stax has 28-30 mana sources on average! This situation was far too narrow to make it a proper case study.' This is true but you have to consider this then. If you kept a hand with two mana producers or one Tomb/City, you probably should have mulliganed. You take a lot of risks with that hand and even though the you will technically have better top decks for lands at this point, you become totally top deck reliant to establish a quick lock. Logically, this is not the Stax game plan. Stax is supposed to reliably have attempts at resolving lock pieces, not gamble on draws that lack cheap efficient digging options (Brainstorm, Ponder, SDT). If your hand can make three mana and you fail to draw another source, the intuition example from above comes into play. It's a strong chance you'll have a Crucible/Crucible/Academy Ruins stack because you either played a City of Traitors or Mox Diamond and will need back all the land you can get to start resolving your other lock pieces. However, as demonstrated in the above example, this'll take time to get online. This leaves us with a final, more likely scenario. You find yourself flooded with mana due to the number of Tomb/City in the deck in combination with your other mana prodcuers and you need to start playing lock pieces immediately to stay alive. With less than six or seven mana in play, it takes two turns to grab a critical lock piece because of the need to untap and play the respective card. With an excess of mana, Intuition for a lock piece becomes a single turn play. However, let's look at those examples.

What does 4-6 mana mean to stax? Assuming we're drawing nothing but land, We're referring somewhere to turn 3-5 generally. Most games by this point are starting to look grim if we have failed to drop the needed lock pieces because an Intuition for the proper card will take possibly 2 turns to get going, meaning we won't be able to establish proper board control until turn 4-6. Regarding games where you have 7+ mana on the table, it's an estimate of turn 5+ assuming all land drops. Games that have made it this far with no locks will not look good for Stax and it is unlikely you will have the ability to control the game successfully at this point. What I mean is that assuming ideal plays from your opponents, Thresh and Standstill will have had 5 turns to search for proper counter magic, Dark Ritual powered decks will have crafted excellent hands or placed large beaters into play and Loam will have likely demolished your mana base. So, realistically, let's talk about that 4-6 mana area.

Due to the fact that draw effects can't guarantee drawing locks, Stax wants tutor effects. Tezzeret Stax is kind of a case in point for this in how Tezz will find the right tool for the right job. Intuition gives us a single time use that gives us a the right card for the right match-up. However, we still need another turn to untap and then play the card. Following this is now the problem of being able to finish the lock or draw a win condition. Every turn that drops by gives our opponent another chance to claw his way out from under the board control we present. This is why I suggest Liliana Vess.

As a two of, Vess theoretically functions the same way as Intuition does. After it's played, you will play a lock card on the following turn. However, in contrast with Intuition, it does not deplete threats from your deck and is reusable. This translates into being more resilient against counter spells as you can continually find lock pieces you need every turn until your opponents counter magic runs dry. As well, Vess falls under the same type of cards that every other card is in this deck generally. The bulk of the cards in Stax are cards that MUST be countered otherwise it helps to bury the opponent in prison effects. An good MUC player will let Intuition go and then counter the lock where as that option is not available with Vess.
---------

tl;dr

Hrm, long rant. I'll just say that Maze of Ith+Urborg+Scrubland+Vess could be good for Dutch Stax.

Skeggi
02-23-2009, 08:37 AM
Wow that's a long read. Good post though, you remind me of Fred Bear :smile:.

Anyway, you pose some very good ideas, but I think that incorporating all of them would make the deck too vulnerable: there are too many complications. I think the deck would run better with some more simplicity.

Maze of Ith is good - but what to drop for it? Intuition is probably something Stax can really use. I've tried Academy Ruins, I'm not a fan, it is, as you say, too slow (and I used it with a recurring EE), but it seems like a must with Intuition. I'd prefer running Riftstone Portal over Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.

Perhaps I could try something like this:


3 Humility
3 Moat
2 Oblivion Ring

3 Elspeth

3 Smokestack
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Mox Diamond

3 Armageddon
1 Replenish

4 Intuition

1 Maze of Ith
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Riftstone Portal
2 Wasteland
2 Blinkmoth Nexus
1 Academy Ruins
4 Plains


Sideboard would be something like


4 Choke
3 Compost
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
2 Oblivion Ring


Ofcourse, when you board in the Chokes, you may consider boarding out the Intuitions.

Intuition targets could be: Humility/Moat/Replenish or Tabernacle/Maze of Ith/Blinkmoth Nexus (if you already have Crucible in play) or Armageddon/Smokestack/Elspeth, or just Academy Ruins/Crucible/Land...or just 3 of the card you really need :wink:.

Just out of curiousity, keidot, how would you propose a list with Liliana Vess?

keidot
02-23-2009, 09:04 AM
For note, my only issue of running Riftstone Portal is having only a single discard outlet in the form of Mox Diamond. As for a deck list, I think a rough deck from the top of my head would be...

Lands
4 Scrubland
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Wasteland
3 City of Traitors
3 Ancient Tomb
5 Plains
2 Maze of Ith
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Artifacts
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of the World
2 Smoke Stack

Spells
3 Armageddon
1 Replenish

Enchantments
3 Moat
3 Humility
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Nether Void

Planeswalkers
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Liliana Vess

I always find it hard to make a sideboard unless I have a near finalized main deck. I feel this deck should be open to a lot of debate on how this should look as I don't think I'm a Grade-A deck builder. Also, I don't mean to sound rude but who's Fred Bear?

Skeggi
02-23-2009, 09:08 AM
For note, my only issue of running Riftstone Portal is having only a single discard outlet in the form of Mox Diamond.
Intuition! And you can also sac it to Smokestack.

Also, I don't mean to sound rude but who's Fred Bear?
Fred Bear is a guy who used to post in the Armageddon Stax thread. He made very long posts, but they were pretty insightful.

Nice job on that list by the way, I can see the potential. I'd be inclined to try it, but I'm saddened by the lack of manlands. Also, only 2 Smokestack is doubtful.

But these things can be overcome, however, you only have 2 win conditions in your entire deck: 2x Elspeth. You may want to think of an alternate win condition. Liliana's final seems brittle in combination with all our creature lock pieces...

keidot
02-23-2009, 09:24 AM
Oh ho, but if you Intuition for Riftstone, who's to say your opponent won't put it in your hand? The scenario of being a Smokestack target does seem valid as in a possible Turn 3 Intuition for Riftstone and two back breaking cards, Turn 4 Riftstone+Smokestack, Turn 5 Sac Riftstone but I would need to play myself to know for sure. The fact that a Riftstone play of this nature would only be attempted with a Maze of Ith or Tabernacle in play means that we would have a strong board element present while we work to fix our mana base.

As for the deck list problems you had, the easiest solution is to cut an O. Ring and the single Nether Void for an additional Elspeth and Smokestack. However, I run a low count of Elspeths due to play style. I prefer to make sure I have as large a lock as possible before I lay down Elspeth. It's true with three, I can make an attempt to force one down sooner than I generally do but I prefer to play conservatively if possible. As for the manlands, I suppose beyond the points I've made, I have a personal aversion towards them. In the games I've played against Thresh, Goblins and Combo, I've never won off the back of manlands with this deck. This is just a personal feeling but every time I have them in hand, I always wish for a stronger board element or am just happy I drew a mana producer. I think that's why I feel Maze/Tabernacle plus either Riftstone or Urborg feels better to me than manlands do.

About Vess's ultimate, I don't think I'd ever use it. I always wanted to use Jace for the reusable draw with no life loss; Vess is there for generating quality draws versus the quantity draw of Jace. However, if I did use the ultimate, I'd have quite a few creatures to feed to Smokestack.

DireLemming
02-23-2009, 11:38 AM
For versions running Portal and utility/non-mana lands, a Dust Bowl might be an interesting option (probably in lieu of a Wasteland).

Mordel
02-23-2009, 12:54 PM
You can intuition for less than three and all cards searched up go to the graveyard.

On the topic of splashes, I honestly don't have enough problems with the rest of the format excluding combo and random jank to justify a splash, which makes me more vulnerable to getting hosed by the popular strat of attacking a non-basic land base. Running two copies of a 3bb card that tutors is one thing that could definitely go towards winning battles of attrition, however at only two copies, the card's addition to try to fix the problem of not drawing a specific peice strikes me as ironic.

It may be because I play on mws primarily, but I have gone days/matches without drawing armageddon, which I run two copies of.

If Vess is the missing puzzle piece, running something like three would probably be a lot better than two.

DireLemming
02-23-2009, 01:09 PM
You can intuition for less than three and all cards searched up go to the graveyard.
That works with Gifts, not Intuition (which says: "...Target opponent chooses one. Put that card into your hand and the rest into your graveyard...").

Mordel
02-23-2009, 01:22 PM
You can't just search for one card?

KillemallCFH
02-23-2009, 01:25 PM
That works with Gifts, not Intuition (which says: "...Target opponent chooses one. Put that card into your hand and the rest into your graveyard...").The reason it works with Gifts is because there is a restriction on the cards you can find with Gifts, and thus you choose to fail to find any number of them. With Intuition, since there are no restrictions, so you cannot choose to fail to find. If there was some sort of restriction on Intuition, because of the clause you stated, you could choose to only find one, and fail to find the other 2, essentially making it a 2U Instant-speed Demonic.

Mordel
02-23-2009, 01:35 PM
Yeah, I forgot the specific wording of the card. My bad.

I fail to see how intuition will be sending portals to the 'yard unless there is three in the deck.

KillemallCFH
02-23-2009, 02:31 PM
Well, if you find two, one will be guaranteed to go to the 'yard. Still, seems like a pretty weak use for Intuition.

keidot
02-24-2009, 07:16 AM
Given the relative ease of splashing green versus the other color choices thanks to Mox Diamond, Horizon Canopy and Riftstone Portal to a lesser degree, it's unfortunate we can't take a page from Enchantress and run Sterling Grove. Wish it was 3cc :<

However, regarding the concerns of becoming more vulnerable to non-basic hate if a color splash is used, I agree that's a legitimate concern. However, I do feel that some experimentation is needed to prevent stagnation when this deck clearly has problems lacking consistent draw.

I haven't read all of the Armageddon Stax thread but I figure someone might be able to answer this question. Given the argument I placed for Vess, that a 5cc tutor is plausible given the nature of this deck, is running Golden Wish a possibility? Arguments for this choice is that our sideboard options aren't necessarily weakened by this because the bulk of our sideboard are both artifact and enchantments. As well, the likely cards that would be cut to run this would likely be singletons of Moat, Humility and Crucible which means they could be moved to the side to inflate our counts of these cards to 6 (assuming 3 Golden Wish). Pro-arguments for this is that the mana base can continue to stay mono-white with a very light splash which will maintain one of the strengths of this deck.

I don't think Golden Wish is a better than Intuition with a Crucible in play or being able to have Liliana Vess in play with a way to defend it but it does give us stronger first games overall against random decks assuming we can survive to cast it. Our sideboard will suffer slightly but for a bit of consistency maindeck, I'm willing to take that sacrifice.

Skeggi
02-24-2009, 07:38 AM
Given the relative ease of splashing green versus the other color choices thanks to Mox Diamond, Horizon Canopy and Riftstone Portal to a lesser degree, it's unfortunate we can't take a page from Enchantress and run Sterling Grove. Wish it was 3cc :<

Eeh...If you want to tutor for enchantments just run Idyllic Tutor (http://magiccards.info/mt/en/12.html)? I must admit, this one has been screaming 'ABUSE ME' at me for quite some time now...But I still couldn't figure it out (it's a sorcery damnit!)...But it sure might be useful in this more enchantment oriented version of Stax. It has been mentioned before if I remember correctly...

About Golden Wish: I fear a 5cc Sorcery is simply too slow. I prefer Idyllic Tutor then. Turn 2 Idyllic Tutor for Moat, Turn 3 Moat. Could be fun. We do lack the power of searching for an artifact though, which is a shame. Perhaps we can orient more on enchantments? Are there any enchantments that could replace certain artifacts in the deck?

keidot
02-24-2009, 08:00 AM
But isn't our sideboard already a wishboard?

Sphere of Law, Defense Grids, Powder Kegs, Chokes, Compost, Tormod's Crypt and O. Rings are in a number of Sideboards already. Isn't this already a strong board of cards to wish from to improve game one against some decks? What I'd be advocating in the case of Golden Wish is to cut three cards and add a Humility, Moat and Crucible/O.Ring.

A sample wish oriented SB might be:

1 Moat
1 Humility
1 Crucible/O. Ring
1 Smokestack
1 City of Solitude
1 Planar Colapse
1 Eye of Singularity
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
3 Sphere of Law
3 Choke

Regarding Sterling Grove, it's both for Shroud and Tutor. Multiples maindeck would be to prevent Krosan Grip from ruining our day.

Skeggi
02-24-2009, 08:08 AM
I agree that shroud for our enchantments would be awesome, but we simply cannot affor a card costing :w::g: in this deck. I'd prefer running a 1-of Replenish then.

Well, one doesn't ban the other...what about this?



3 Humility
3 Moat
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Pendrell Mists
1 Ghostly Prison

3 Armageddon
2 Idyllic Tutor
2 Golden Wish
1 Replenish

4 Mox Diamond
2 Smokestack
3 Trinisphere
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Crucible of Worlds

3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Tundra
1 Savannah
2 Blinkmoth Nexus
1 Wasteland
1 Dustbowl
2 Horizon Canopy
7 Plains


Sideboard:


1 Smokestack
1 Humility
1 Moat
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Trinisphere
1 Pendrell Mists
2 Choke
1 Compost
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Sphere of Law
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 City of Solitude


When running against a blue deck for instance, you could side in 1 Choke, so you can also search it with Idyllic Tutor.

Having looked at the list, I think I prefer Idyllic Tutor still (and screw the Replenish).

keidot
02-24-2009, 08:18 AM
That looks positively interesting to play. It doesn't have the vulnerabilities of Intuition, maintains a strong mana base due to very light splashes and has a very strong curve. The ability to play Idyllic Tutor means a following play of O. Ring or any other enchantment main board assuming a land is in hand. While this build doesn't help the draw situation present in the deck, it helps to insure that the deck finds the correct tool for the job. Needless to say, I'll test this deck a bit and will hopefully have something more noteworthy to comment on then.

Playing 3-4 Tutor main board can lead to a lot of interesting maindeck options as you've demonstrated with Pendrell Mists and Ghostly Prison. In regards to having shroud on our permanents, if Idyllic Tutor or Golden Wish is run, a singleton Privileged Position could be run somewhere in main or side to give us that option to keep a lock on board fairly tightly.

Skeggi
02-24-2009, 08:29 AM
The obvious problem with that card is that it costs 3 colored mana (and 2 colorless mana)...I think it'll be too much of the good stuff; early and midgame it won't be playable. If you reach late game, shroud will probably not be your main issue; getting a kill would.

Edit: is this (http://magiccards.info/in/en/27.html) a hidden gem? Okay, perhaps not supertech vs. Tombstalker, but anything else it's pretty cool I think (plus, the big Tombstalker reflection wouldn't have flying, which is also pretty cool!)

And this (http://magiccards.info/sok/en/26.html) could be sort of a Moat for the people without money. Except that it doesn't protect Elspeth, which sucks.

keidot
02-24-2009, 08:49 AM
True enough, it does scream win more to me as well. Given situations where the play would be applicable with an Idyllic Tutor lead, it seems easier to wish for multiples of lock pieces and play them to hold the lock. As well, I'll state that if Idyllic Tutor is run, I think Pendrell Mists is mandatory. It gives Dutch Stax a way to emulate one of the strong plays from Armageddon Stax which is definitely appreciable.

On the note of Idyllic Tutor, I was considering the draw issue again. Tutor does a lot to alleviate this issue as it serves to act as our enchantment lock pieces 4-6 but it doesn't help us find our win conditions or our strong artifact locks. So, with that in mind, I'll suggest this odd card: Attunement. As a singleton that can be found with Idyllic Tutor, it has a relatively deep dig potential and has the all important component of being reusable. This is the main reason why I wanted Jace and Vess to work in this deck as the ability to reuse them as necessary helps build and maintain our lock to win the game.

Sorry if my suggestions have been so odd throughout this thread, I can't help but be curious about what can make this deck better.

---
Pure Reflection is interesting in tandem with Humility as it prevents from the board from being cluttered with creatures and will work towards the power of stacks more. As well, Elspeth can block the Reflection token near indefinitely. Ignoring the possibility of an opponent using removal on the token and then swinging into her, this forms a fairly effective soft lock on creatures.

Regarding the idea of a budget Moat, this is actually a fairly serious issue for people wishing to run this deck. In the case of a budget version, I'll suggest a more R/W oriented build. The reasons for this is that I'd run this as my creature lock:

3 Humility
3 Powerstone Minefield
X Idyllic Tutor

Though Powerstone Minefield doesn't do much on it's own against tombstalkers or pairs of goyfs, it keeps a decent soft lock when paired with Humility.

Skeggi
02-24-2009, 09:21 AM
Sorry if my suggestions have been so odd throughout this thread, I can't help but be curious about what can make this deck better. I really like thinking outside of the box, but I think we should be weary of drifting. Conjuring all sorts of odd tech and contemplating whether it'd work or not is only useful up to a certain level. We've thought of a couple of adjustments - now all we have to do is test it. Alot. I prefer testing a certain concept in an as standard as possible decklist, so you won't see two cases influence eachother.

For instance, test Idyllic Tutor in one deck first, then test Golden Wish in another, then test them together. Observe, analyse and conclude. In this order: too often do people analyse while observing, which can blur the observation.

So I guess, we should start testing these builds and report back here. I'll try some Idyllic Tutor awesomesauce myself. We'll see how it goes :smile:.

keidot
02-25-2009, 04:47 AM
Initial play results aren't too surprising given the nature of wish. Resolving Vess allows for a constant flurry of ideal plays where as Golden Wish leads to an efficient burst that can either be the turning point in a match or ultimately fizzle. The times where it resolved reminded me very little of when I resolve Burning or Cunning Wish as I lacked the mana to immediately play the effect. To enunciate on the benefits of those wishes, their efficient cost coupled with their efficient cost lead to effective sideboard options. Based on the cost of Golden Wish, it feels like a weak card to start the lock but is an appropriate card to finish a lock. With out dashing it away as saying it's "win-more", using a naked Golden Wish essentially leads to unoptimal plays versus our other options available at this given moment. Even Vess, a card that would a restructuring of the maindeck to support its double black casting cost, is better than wish because it maintains a constant stream of threats and can possibly provide a 'fog' effect for you as the card quality engine it provides cannot be overlooked by an opponent.

To be stated succinctly, due to the nature of this deck (playing chalices for 1 and 2, playing Trinisphere, etc), we can't play Golden Wish efficiently. All draw/tutor spells to find and cast a lock piece require two pieces no matter what (except in the case of Vess and multiple resolutions). However, the extra turn lost in regards to the higher cost of Wish effects this deck poorly as its single use doesn't net a large benefit for the cost associated with it. A good example of using wishes can be described when I play my friend and his Spring Tide deck. He cares very little for my resolving artifacts and uses his Forces to hit my Armageddons. It's only when he's crafted a strong hand does he Cunning Wish for Rebuild, then Rebuild on the end of my turn. This is the luxury that we deny ourselves: even if Golden Wish costed 1-2 less mana, our sideboard wouldn't have low costed, efficient answers as our own prison effects restricts our chances to play them appropriately.

Given the play data I've acquired, the only card I would want to wish for in every game if possible would be Balance. Yes, Balance. The nature of needing to wish for correct or any lock pieces necessitates that board position fails to favor you and, accordingly, the deck wants a cheap, board reset to have another chance to set up the lock. However, seeing as how I can't play with cards that silly, we come back to the point that we started at: Golden Wish isn't good enough to warrant at this current point in time. Wishes are generally run to improve a decks game 1 as opposing decks will struggle with the wide array of answers the Wish deck can have. To be blunt, I think Stax has a superb game 1 if it can draw it. A simple example would be Turn 1 Chalice for one, Turn 2 Trinisphere, Turn 3 Armageddon. Unless there's a creature on the table, this type of lock stops any deck dead in their tracks and forces them to top deck land, something your much more apt to handle. This is why it's odd to force Golden Wish as we don't need to have better game 1s and worse subsequent games due to a smaller SB. We just want to have optimal draws/plays every turn more than anyone else.

With that information in tow, I'll move my efforts towards testing Idyllic Tutor as that seems to be a bit more promising given how this deck curves. I don't think think my results will be all that surprising but I don't mind being surprised at all either.

Oh, for fun, try testing 3-4x Attunement in place of Idyllic Tutor. I toyed around with it a bit and it's quite amusing actually. It makes Replenish, Crucible and Academy Ruins become much more linchpin in the deck but it digs deep and consistently. If you play it, it means you have no other plays but it's nice starting a turn with it in play knowing that you can dig six cards deep for a relevant card if you're desperate. At the very least, I had more fun testing Attunement than struggling with Golden Wish.

Skeggi
02-25-2009, 05:07 AM
Yeah, the findings on Golden Wish were a bit predictable.

@Balance: there's a pretty good reason not to run this 'silly' card. Next to the fact that Chalice@2 is often a gamewinning play, it's also kind of banned. You could try Cataclysm though. Doesn't really do the same, but in a way, it does. Some Armageddon Stax lists used it as Armageddon 5-6, when they couldn't afford Ravages of War. In fact, some people liked it so much, they ran 3 Armageddons and 2 Cataclysms. It might be an idea to replace(!) Armageddon with Cataclysm in this deck. Keep in mind though: it also kills Planeswalkers.

I can imagine this deck going either an Idyllic Tutor-way, with 1-of silver bullets in the form of enchantments to tutor up. Or an Attunement-way, Replenish and Academy Ruins; where you can dig deeper and Replenish would be a total bomb. The last version seems a bit more counter-sensitive, because your opponent only needs to counter that 1 Replenish and you're back to square one.

..or...it basically stays the same :wink:

Mordel
02-25-2009, 05:30 AM
Idyllic tutor seems very interesting. I took a break from playing the deck before merfolk started to become very popular online anyway.

As far as I am concerned, tuning the deck a bit more for merfolk might be a good bet, though I don't think too much needs to be done considering in theory, it should be an easier game than dreadstill depending on if they run ports or not(ports would make it quite difficult if they were running wastelands too I think).

The primary matchups that I would be concerned about right now are combo, merfolk, dreadstill, thresh variants with natural order integrated(same as uwg as far as I am concerned) and trying to confront the weakness to jank.

I'm sure that I am missing something in there though as far as targeted matches go.

Results may be pointing to otherwise, so I am sorry if this comes off as a bit crass, but the wishes seem very unwieldy. While I like the idea of having a wishboard, needing to hit two white and three colourless and then a turn to use what you wish for seems too much for my liking. The reason I say this is because I would often find myself at death's door almost when I would need the entirety of my lock to come together.

That is to say that I am not too confident that I would rather be playing the wishes over oblivion rings, which I consider to be the cornerstone of the deck's success in many games. Yes, the tutors essentially drive the number of oblivion rings up to four in a sense, but counters and needing to 'ring something promptly make this seem less desirable to me in the long run. At the very least, O-rings get sacrificed to allow cards like moat to resolve and having four at my disposal allows me to use them as fodder and at the same time, have one or two to fall back on.

I see what you are doing there with that singleton replenish though. Very clever.

No promising developments will ever happen without shifting directions and maybe even focus, but I am not sure if lowering the number of wastelands by three and adding a dustbowl is a step in the right direction. While wastelands sometimes feel like a wasted draw against merfolk(sometimes!), I don't know if I would want to forsake the ability to force other opponents to play a turn behind in mana development. Early wastelocks still do work too.

I think a lot of my apprehension towards cutting some slots back to three that are the bread and butter of the deck as far as first turn plays go in favor of adding tutors would be lessened by knowing what sorts of decks you are trying to prepare for in particular,

Don't think I didn't notice the freat deal of effort that you put into keeping the base number of basics relatively high in your build either. I have to agree with what this suggests in that one of the strengths of the deck is in a relatively strong/resilient mana base that can stand up reasonably well to opposing wastelands. In the same token though, to try to make a minor splash without disturbing this balance and at the same time allowing for the minor splash to be easily accessible seems like a very difficult task at best. In the games that you have played with the splash, have you had access to the right colour when you needed it or did you find yourself inconvenienced?

Here I was earlier today thinking that when I get a wild hair up my ass, I would try removing a two lands and put in two canopies. Haha.

Edit: What's this about Balance?!

keidot
02-25-2009, 09:41 AM
I mentioned Balance as a mixed point of sarcasm and desire. I'm aware of it being banned in Legacy but it was mentioned as something the deck wants to accomplish to some degree. If Stax fails to have a strong draw, games can turn ugly quickly as the lock pieces might possibly do too little too late. Cataclysm did come to mind but the fact that it does kill Planeswalkers makes me a tad wary.

Regarding exchanging wastelands for other relevant lands, I'm not against attempting this. What would we gain in exchange for our mana denial plan though? More Canopies isn't necessarily bad but ideal Canopy plays mean being slightly flooded or having Crucible in play to ensure being able to cast lock pieces that you hopefully draw.

Concerning Replenish, I would at least increase the count to two if attempting to run multiple Attunements as a way of digging through the deck. However, the deck doesn't need a deep devotion to Attunement. As realistically you'll only be working with one more often than not, it's possible to just Idyllic Tutor for a singleton and start setting up a large Replenish if it's already in your hand.

Regarding splashes, I could hit the cost for Vess far more often than the cost for Jace simply because drawing Urborg made it easy to hit double black. It was always rare to have a possible turn 3 Jace play but he was never dropped until I had either Moat or Elspeth down to ensure he had some type of way to stay out there and draw me cards unless my opponent hadn't played a creature yet. When making test lists, if I pick up a splash to specifically play a draw spell of some sort, I always drop Canopies first. I don't know if this is the right choice, but it seems correct because the card that normally lets us draw is being exchanged for a mana source that helps ensure being able to play draw. I generally end up with 8 ways to mana fix for non-green colors, the most possible without restructuring the non-land slots in the deck.

Skeggi
02-25-2009, 09:48 AM
Perhaps we should take a closer look at green. Horizon Canopy really is pretty good as a 4-of, so green is as good as given. Green has some funky draw-stuff like Harmonize. Perhaps try and exploit that.

keidot
02-25-2009, 10:04 AM
Oddly enough, I'd go with the heretical suggestion of Rites of Flourishing. It's not a bad play if Chalices are in place to make their draws less effective and serves its function as an exploration with a possible wastelock to make their played lands less significant. Your opponent getting the Draw+Exploration effect first is unfortunate but it does accomplish two things this deck makes good use of from a pure analysis stand point.

Skeggi
02-25-2009, 10:23 AM
I like that 'heretical' suggestion. It's certainly testworthy. You can see I failed with Exploration...but this could turn out to be pretty cool. Or a total fiasco, but hey, in that case, at least we can cross it off the list :laugh:.

Mordel
02-25-2009, 12:39 PM
Rites of Flurishing strikes me as absolutely horrible. Never mind my opponent drawing an extra card per turn, but allowing them to play two lands in a turn? Even if you have a smoker set at two that is a huge liability without a 3sphere or a CotV set at two.

Is Rites of Flourishing sarcasm too?

Skeggi
02-25-2009, 12:50 PM
Is Rites of Flourishing sarcasm too?
Not on my account. You're very right that this card has all the potential of being horrible. But it also provides us with 2 things we really want. Since they cost next to nothing, I will at least try them out. Perhaps we break the format. But indeed, the odds are against us :wink:.

keidot
03-02-2009, 06:31 AM
A Dutch Stax deck featuring a splash for black places 2nd at a 41 person tourney (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23647).

To note, he splashes black for 4 Cranial Extraction and 2 Engineered Plagues in his Sideboard. All things considered, Engineered Plague seems nice against a goblin, merfolk and ichorid infested meta. As well, he drops any semblance of draw (Horizon Canopy) to have more ways to find his 3 Scrubland to play his black cards in game 2 and 3.

f|i[p]
03-02-2009, 12:10 PM
Looks like a very promising thing.. Just like in geddon stax, were trying to splash a color, just for more sideboard options.. The meta game he played in looks good as well..Its nice to see people actually bringing this deck to tournaments and getting really good results with it..

Mordel
03-03-2009, 01:38 AM
Dutch Stax is in my opinion the better of the two white stax builds for sure.

Cranial extraction is definitely a brilliant card to splash for: it makes mirror matches laughable, can steal the game from rock if you manage to weather the discard/top deck it and comes out of the blue for control matches...not to mention making short work of a deck like dreadstill or threshthreshthresh's threats. They could also be pretty good against combo as far as slowing them down goes. A good combo player/deck could play around an extract after falling for it once though, I'd recon.

A very good idea.

jedi_gof
03-13-2009, 04:22 PM
liliana vess, is she woth testing if you go a little deeper into the balck splash? I dont know, but seems like the option to search is really nice, allthough she costs the same as goldenwish earlier discussed. The 2 decks that did well recently, was me and my mate who played these in denmark, both losing out in the final. My friend Anton was the one starting the splash black, and I must say the Craniel E is nuts in this deck... So I am exploring this a bit more, any inputs for possible cards to splash for is more than welcome:)

ebbitten
03-13-2009, 04:43 PM
In all the legacy decks that I have played liliana has always seemed to be a bit win more. Sure she will tutor for what you need, but its after a 5 mana investment and a turn of waiting. Generally if you can play something that costs that much and not be under attack you're close enough to winning.

jedi_gof
03-14-2009, 04:27 AM
thats kinda the feeling i have been left with...
I just think she better than goldenwish, as earlier discussed...
Anyone tried out obelisk of alara? I tried it of as a one of, with decent succes. The +5 life is actually ok to stall with, and the possibility to filter with the blue ability isnt that shabby!
But dont think its good enough though, however its fun, extra kill condition+removal of confidats, lavamancers etc...

keidot
03-14-2009, 07:21 AM
There are two central problems to running non-white cards in stax. Firstly, non-green splashes diminish the strength of the mana base. Secondly, what do we cut to add room for these utility cards?

Ignoring the first issue (resolving early Crucibles negate opposing land-destruction game plans and having fetches in place of Horizon Canopy strengthen games against Magus of the Moon/Blood Moon/Back to Basic. As well, placing 2nd in a top 8 that has 3 other land destruction/mana denial decks in it is a testament to the deck construction), we find ourselves left with the decision of what to cut. Considering the general construction of this deck, all we can cut are win-cons, mana sources and lock pieces. Regardless of what we cut for, let's say Vess, we're still faced with her awkward casting cost plus tempo investment. If it works, Vess pays dividends as she will start, finish, and maintain a lock due to a combination of strong board positioning and hand disruption. If she fails, Vess essentially says "Search your library for a card, then shuffle your library and put that card on top of it. During your opponents next combat phase, you take 0 damage." At worse, she'll fizzle and your opponent will have one less counterspell.

I guess what I'm saying without regurgitating too much more of what I've already said before about Vess or cards similar to Vess (4cc-6cc 'answers') is that Vess makes the deck more mulligan heavy in game 1 but could be significantly stronger games 2/3. To clarify, in a blind match, would you keep a hand that had the ability for a turn 3 Vess but no other lock pieces? It's true that you can find whatever you'd need to start locking the board by turn 4 but you've given your opponent three turns to set-up. However, the situation described is fairly unlikely to say the least. Given that the deck is nearly 50% mana, about 45% of the rest of the deck is disruptive or assists disruptive elements in some way. It's far more likely that you'll draw some mana and a lock piece or two with Vess.

I have to disagree slightly with ebbitten's thoughts on Vess regarding stax. Normally I'd agree but given the inherent inconsistency of stax, being in a strong position one turn doesn't necessitate the game. I have lost games based off not finding Humility for 12 turns in a row, many turns involving Canopy+Crucible. Vess does much to turn this around for us as the recurrable tutoring helps immensely to build and maintain a lock in the game. For that reason, resolving Vess to me is on par to resolving Armageddon: the play is back-breaking if you've taken time to develop your board.

Blah blah blah, long story short, I liked Vess when I suggested it then and I still like it now. However, as also said in this thread, theory only goes so far. Just build it with Vess and get sample data. Vess is strongest in a control themed deck imo and it seems to have a perfect home in stax because of the plainswalker protection granted by Moat, Humility and artifact locks.

Regarding Obelisk, it seems that if it doesn't make mana, create a lock or support a lock, it doesn't make the cut for stax. I'd still test it though for the simple reason that I'm willing to test anything (within reason:tongue: )

Also, can you explain why you had a singleton Wrath of God and a singleton Sphere of Law jedi_gof? Also, did you actually draw them or mulligan heavily for them? I only ask because singletons without tutors make me grumpy:laugh:

jedi_gof
03-14-2009, 10:58 AM
well to be honest, i was supposed to loan some cards for the tourney, which the guy i was supposed to loan them form forgot. :S Thats the reason. Also was considering the green splash the night before, and messed up my SB to a point i couldnt remember what originally was in the SB (thank you carlsberg for messing that up me for;D ) Singletons are generally crappy, and never boarded the wrath, but was left wishing for more of the Sphere of Laws(which i was supposed to loan to more of) as one of those generally are gg vs burn.)

The Deck i must say performs way above expectations in our meta! ( we play a weekly tourney tuesdays in addition to the monthly saturdays) My worst placing with this after 5rds, top 4 or 8 is 1-2 places outside the top. I haev never posted a loosing record sporting this deck and have played in a very varied meta with very accomplished players!

The obelisk is me always wanting to go where no-one evers gone before(usually with reason:P ) Like the stall lifegain provides, and the blue ability thins your deck... But is propably not worht it.

But i think Vess is def. worth testing, now that i am going splash black.

Any other thougths on whats worth playing now we are spashing black? Was considering Nether Void in SB, but think they are to expensive in $ to invest in.

blaat
03-20-2009, 10:46 AM
After some deck testing I wanted to sqeeze in a few tutors that were mentioned before.
This let's me play a few good 1-off enchantment answers next to the mainboard lock pieces.

- Idyllic tutor
- sterling grove

Idyllic works fine like its supposed to be, fetching moat/humility, halo or ring (or a few 1-offs from SB).
Only relevant problem is you can't cast what you searched for the same turn, leaving you vulnerable to discard (happened to me a lot).

Sterling grove does a little more.
It protects our soft-locks and tutors for any enchantment we need.
It's a permanent.
However is does need green and white mana.
So, why splash green and what would green give us?

- Sylvan library (sterling grove and flagstone already shuffle crappy top3 cards for us away)
- Choke (In my meta most, if not all top8 decks tend to play blue)
- a few random SB choices

A little manabase fix would let us play these card without cutting white mana sources.
Adding 2 savanna's, 1-2 riftsone portals and we already have 1-2 canopy en 4 moxes.

Maybe choke sounds a bit meh compared to SB geddon 4-? but testing should point that out.
I Love island hate that doesn't need crucible.
With a defense grid out it even becomes more fun.

keidot
03-22-2009, 12:07 AM
Choke has generally been seen as a very strong sideboard option for Stax decks. I believe Skeggi's testing in Dutch Stax and the myriad of decklists posted in the Geddon Stax thread attest to the strength of the card. Regarding Sterling Grove, the only problem you haven't mentioned about it is the unfortunate casting cost of the spell. At 2cc, it becomes a possible dead card to one of our strongest chalice plays. Concerning Riftstone Portal, I know the card is good but I dislike the fact that it heavily relies on a second card to accomplish its effect. Namely, those possible cards would be Mox Diamond, Smokestacks, Wasteland and Dustbowl. What I'm saying is that Skeggi accurately posted in either this thread or in the Geddon Stax thread that this deck needs it's color mana sources vs Geddon Stax builds because of its reliants on Moat/Humility to lock the board. Because of this, I don't think I'd necessarily cut white mana producers to add Riftstone Portals (definite white mana producers vs possible mana producers) because it increases the number of dead draws in the deck. Regardless, I suppose with only cutting a plains or two that the chances of not drawing a white mana producer doesn't drop drastically but I suppose that's something only testing will show.

Regarding the discussion of the black splash: I gave it some somewhat serious thought and there's only a handful of black spells that I know I'd like to play. Those cards are: Liliana Vess, Cranial Extraction, Engineered Plague, Abyss, Nether Void and No Mercy. Yeah, No Mercy. Fairly silly, I know.

There's a simple conclusion regarding tutors and this deck. We can't play the best tutors available due to playing towards the strength of Chalice and, to a lesser degreee, Trinisphere. If the pilot pushes to play the 3cc+ tutors, the overall speed of the deck drops and becomes vulnerable to discard. The only exception to this that I'm aware of is Vess and her tutor effect. If the deck had a way to consitently choke the game early so it could afford to play the expensive tutors for the stronger lock elements, it could possibly be a stronger deck. I say possibly because this isn't easily testable.

In fact, nothing is really easily testable regarding this deck. This deck is not a goldfish deck and it's fairly infuriating for my friends to play against. The games are always long, just longer when I win. Because of this, I can't turn over as much play data as I'd like regarding splashes and other 'odd' maindeck choices as I did with, say, 1-Land Belcher.

Anyhow, to end on the note of splashes, I'm looking foward to the new Alara Reborn set. The all multi-color set could make for interesting new cards for this deck if we continue looking more and more into splashing for stronger effects.

grahf
03-22-2009, 04:52 PM
Hello, I have no experience with this deck, but it's fun to read about. Someone mentioned Balance, and I thought I'd point out that there is an "enchantment version" of Balance called Equipoise (http://magiccards.info/vi/en/103.html); it doesn't work exactly the same, but it might be worth looking into, being tutorable and all. Sadly the "fixed" Balance from Odyssey, Balancing Act, treats all permanents equally, which would seem to be quite counterproductive for what this deck is trying to accomplish.

Skeggi
03-23-2009, 04:51 AM
Hello, it's been a while since I've posted here. I like all the activity around the deck, and it looks like it's going in 2 directions: the green splash or the black splash. I really like the black splash, I think it's very innovative. Good job on that one. I've been tinkering with the green splash myself, and the Idyllic Tutors.

I haven't strayed far from my original list in testing. For the green splash I'm now playing 1 Savannah and 3 Horizon Canopies and it seems sufficient. I'm currently playing 2 Idyllic Tutors in the main, and I must say, I really like them. Yes, it opens up to discard, but I haven't had that problem so far (/knock on wood). Idyllic Tutor does in my deck what it's supposed to do: fetch either a Moat or a Humility, depending on the situation. Sometimes it fetches an Oblivion Ring, but that's often a more desperate out.

My current list looks like this:


4 Humility
4 Moat
3 Oblivion Ring

3 Smokestack
4 Mox Diamond
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere

3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

2 Armageddon
1 Ravages of War
2 Idyllic Tutor

3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Horizon Canopy
2 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Savannah
7 Plains

Sideboard


1 Chalice of the Void
1 Trinisphere
2 Compost
3 Choke
2 Pithing Needle
2 Sphere of Law
2 Wrath of God
2 Powder Keg

About the maindeck:
I think I'd prefer it if the Factories were Blinkmoth Nexuses, so I will try those next. I would love to try Sterling Groves, but it's really hard to fit it in. The problem is, ofcourse, that tutoring is always slower than just having the spell in your hand already. I honestly think 2 Idyllic Tutors is enough. I would love to have a fourth Oblivion Ring in, but I don't know what to cut. Perhaps I'll just add it as a 61st card.

The fact that I'm 'only' running 2 Manlands isn't an issue, as the deck is much more consistent making its lock with Idyllic Tutor. Because of this lock, if would be better if they were Blinkmoth Nexuses.

About the sideboard:
I haven't had the time to test the sideboard very well, so I can't really comment on it, besides the fact that Chokes are awesome. But we already knew that :wink:.

I'm still not a huge fan of Defense Grids. I prefer Trinispheres over Defense Grid anytime.


Equipoise (http://magiccards.info/vi/en/103.html); it doesn't work exactly the same
It doesn't work the same at all. Basically this will mostly only trigger on creatures as we run none. So what happens? In our turn, the opponent's Tarmogoyf phases out. In our opponent's upkeep, he phases back in. Then he attacks. Then on our turn again, the tapped Tarmogoyf phases out. On his turn, the Tarmogoyf phases back in, ready to attack. I don't see where we win here.

blaat
03-23-2009, 12:34 PM
About the maindeck:
I think I'd prefer it if the Factories were Blinkmoth Nexuses, so I will try those next. I would love to try Sterling Groves, but it's really hard to fit it in. The problem is, ofcourse, that tutoring is always slower than just having the spell in your hand already. I honestly think 2 Idyllic Tutors is enough. I would love to have a fourth Oblivion Ring in, but I don't know what to cut. Perhaps I'll just add it as a 61st card.

The fact that I'm 'only' running 2 Manlands isn't an issue, as the deck is much more consistent making its lock with Idyllic Tutor. Because of this lock, if would be better if they were Blinkmoth Nexuses.


This is also my next issue.
Considering you have a moat out, factory is just dead until you have elspeth out.
However, during testing I did get factory + elspeth to win a lot (recurring 5/5 or even 6/6 flyer for the win, ofcourse our main win con).

Blinkmoth nexus can start to do damage when there's a moat out.
What it can't do is block opposing 1/1's from a humility without recurring it.
A single factory can block 1/1's all day without dying.

So although nexus looks better on paper, it should be tested first (starting with that now).

The sterling groves have been awesome for me.
The manacost has never been a problem for me.
It protects half the lock pieces and acts like a tutor and/or shuffle effect for my sylvan library (which i misread; you first resolve your draw before the extra draws...).
With that last sentence I doubt sylvan library is any good in this deck anyway.

Matchups for now:

Well I don't have any results on paper when testing with some friends, but I only lost to heavy counter decks with a good curve (bad for us) for counterbalance (archmage, sower etc.).
I lost when humility got countered and after some turns I faced three archmages which is auto-concede.
However he did get beaten to 6 with 3/3 factory :)

Other decks were dreadstill and turbo sinkhole, raze & friends that lost to my chalice or moat.

The Wes
03-23-2009, 01:59 PM
Though pretty much all of my experience was was Armageddon Stax I did run a b/w version through serveral tourneys with mixed results. Braids was one of the main reasons for the black splash which obviously doesn't flow well with humility, but vindicate was the other main deck cards. Now this was back before oblivion ring but permanent removal was very sweet. I could never get abyss or nether void working like I wanted to and though I tried my hardest, couldn't get cranial extraction to work well either. Plague was in the sb and rather nice. One thing I'd have to say about the splashes were that they help greatly in making EE more usable.

p.s. Chokes and Grips are amazing and the main reason to green.

Skeggi
03-24-2009, 04:21 AM
Vindicate is still better than Oblivion Ring. It's just that Oblivion Ring kind of makes it not worth it to splash black; except for Cranial Extraction.

Chokes are totally awesome indeed, but I have trouble fitting Krosan Grip in the sideboard...

About Engineered Explosives: I've dropped them for Powder Keg because I needed more answers for Gaddock Teeg. It's pretty safe to say that any deck with G/W has these in its sideboard... except Dutch Stax :wink:.

rockSTAR
03-31-2009, 05:36 AM
Hi guys.

I had a close read at this topic and I really like what you guys came up with. I've tested Dutch stax for several days now and I'm really happy how it performs.

The only thing that needs to be improved is the consistency. Hot and overwhelming starts are the true nature of the deck but legacy doesn't give us the tools to be as broken as the vintage counter parts of this archetype.

Horizon Canopy seems ok at first. Still testing it. I tried it as a 2-off at first but quickly realized, that we need at least 3 to make it work like we want it to.

Another card I'm currently testing is Staff of Domination. CC3 is a decent topdeck and a very universal tool that even draws us a card, when having cow, lands+topdeckmode (which happens quite often vs control and or B decks.)

What do you guys think about that?

Another point I would like to point out is the number of some Cards:

COW: Definetly a 4-of. You ALWAYS want that card. May it to slam down an early armageddon or whatever definetly. I would run 7 if I could.

Trinisphere: This is the opposite of COW. 4 Is way too much. You want it early on the one hand (but c'mon 3 mana turn 1 + trini is not very realistic). I play 2 MD and I'm very comfortable with it. I think definetly think it to be the right amount of trinis.

Elspeth: Anything below 3 is a sin. This motherfucker is nuts :D

For reference here my current testing list:

4 Humility
4 Moat
3 Oblivion Ring

3 Smokestack
4 Mox Diamond
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Trinisphere

3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

2 Armageddon
1 Ravages of War
2 Staff of Domination

3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Horizon Canop
2 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Savannah
7 Plains

SB:
2 Trinisphere
2 Compost
3 Choke
2 Pithing Needle
2 Sphere of Law
2 Wrath of God
2 Powder Keg

Skeggi
03-31-2009, 05:42 AM
I'm glad you like the deck. But I don't understand how you can scream you'd like to run 7 CoW and then only run 3 :tongue:.

rockSTAR
03-31-2009, 05:58 AM
Oh lol. Thats an old List. I will edit it. My fault.

What do you think about the staff?

Skeggi
03-31-2009, 06:03 AM
What do you think about the staff?
Honestly I think it's probably too mana intensive and too slow. But keep trying it, it may work out. Let us know :smile:.

rockSTAR
03-31-2009, 07:34 AM
Yes that's the only concern. On the other hand it's so freakin flexible. Makes life, taps Nasty things like Enforcer/Predator and stuff that Moat can't handle on it's own.

Did you try any other cards to improve the consistency of the deck?

Skeggi
03-31-2009, 07:48 AM
Idyllic Tutor improves consistancy. Here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=330708&postcount=73) is the main post about it.

ThatGuyThere
05-06-2009, 12:53 PM
Given the play data I've acquired, the only card I would want to wish for in every game if possible would be Balance. Yes, Balance.

Alright, I know this is a bit of Thread Necromancy, but I've gotten an Idea.

Cascade is currently the Belle of the Ball, and people have noticed how well it works (in theory) with Living End, Ancestral Visions, and Hypergenesis...

...but what about Restore Balance, in here? How many <3 CC spells (er, moxes excepted, I guess...) are there? You could Ardent Plea into Restore Balance, or Captured Sunlight (in which case it's <4 CC) into Restore Balance, destroying hand, creatures, and even land in one go.

Sanguine Voyeur
05-06-2009, 01:10 PM
The biggest problems with Restore Balance are that it's speed makes it a dead card until seven turns later and it's predictability. Running cards that do very little on their own doesn't help with problem one and you wont reliably 'cascade' into it so it cannot be depended on as a sweeper.

Ardent Plea and Captured Sunlight would serve no function useful other then making a spell cost more colored mana and cantripping. You could Plea cascade into what? Trinisphere, Crucible, Oblivion Ring, and Chalice at 0. Sunlight is the same with Humility, Armageddon, and Moat. You'd be spending a card for a minimal effect and a chance to play a card that may not even be useful.

ThatGuyThere
05-06-2009, 01:30 PM
The biggest problems with Restore Balance are that it's speed makes it a dead card ...

Ardent Plea and Captured Sunlight would serve no function...

I was suggesting Plea-ing, or Sunlight-ing, into Restore Balance.

Bad synergy with Mox Diamond and Chalice, agreed. And maybe bad enough to make the whole thing unworkable.

But Sunlight => Crucible / Trinisphere, or maybe Wrath of Twisted Armageddon, seems like it might be worth working on.

Also - Cascade plays less than the CMC, not equal or less than. So Ardent Plea can only flip 2 CMC or less - Mox, maybe Powerkeg (in some builds), maybe Chalice (in some builds), or Restore Balance.

PS - I totally admit this borders on (if not flies wholeheartedly at) Danger of Cool Things. But it's also been mentioned several times that a Balance-type-effect would greatly improve the deck.

The Wes
05-06-2009, 01:52 PM
I can't imagine this being anything other than the danger of cool things. Having the diamonds, chalices, and any sb cards. Its just too much of a chance to hit something you don't want. Not to mention if you do it and hit a chalice the first time, its going to counter the Restore Balance if you do ever get to play it.

Sanguine Voyeur
05-06-2009, 01:58 PM
Also - Cascade plays less than the CMC, not equal or less than. So Ardent Plea can only flip 2 CMC or less - Mox, maybe Powerkeg (in some builds), maybe Chalice (in some builds), or Restore Balance.Did not know that. That means that you'll be paying one more mana for a card that you could have played for three or less that may not even be what you want to cast. Now, instead of being a cantrip, like I said before, it's a bad cantrip. Instead of paying 2GW for a Trinisphere or Crucible, why not just run more? The cards cut for Sunlight would be better then Sunlight, even if you are cutting something you can't cascade into.

Plea and Balance isn't good because of the toll on deck space and potential for dead cards as well. Balance will be a dead card on it's own, and even more dead with Chalice. If you're running an equal number of Balances, Kegs, Moxen, and Chalices, Plea will be a poor investment around 50% of the time. If you don't run Kegs, it will be a poor investment around 66% of the time. You'd be paying three mana and maybe splashing another color for a small chance at a Wrath/Armageddon.

ThatGuyThere
05-07-2009, 02:34 PM
Insightful Observations.

*Bows* I know when I'm defeated.

I just noticed the deck did have synnergy with a Balance effect (lots of artifacts, no noticeable creatures, etc), and thought I would let wiser minds than mine figure out if it was worth doing.

Honestly, I was pretty sure it wasn't, so I'm not surprised.

jnosrati
07-02-2009, 01:15 AM
hey so im a first time stax player, but i want to get some feedback on my list, tel me what you think

enchantments-
3moat
1 magus of the moat (if they see it game one theyll expect 4and keep in kill spells, if they dont, they take em out and its a moat/creature

4humility
2 oblivion ring

artifacts-
4 crucible of words
4 trinisphere
4 challice of the void
4 mox diamond
3 smokestack

pw-
3 elspeth

sorcery-
4 amrageddon


land-
5 plains
1 savannah
3 mishra's factory
1 horizon canopy
3 flagstones of trkair
4 wasteland
4 ancient tomb
3 city of traitors


sideboard-
something with krosan grip and pithing needle and that enchantment that makes activated abilites cost more

also, how do you sideboard against different decks? hows the meta? any ideas for the consistancy? im new to egacy, ive played this and eva green basically, and i still sorta think eva might be better, but this deck is amazing so i dont care, its jut so awesome to have our opponent scoop so often :]

Skeggi
07-02-2009, 05:00 AM
I strongly advice the use of 4 Moats, not the Magus, since Humility shuts it down. Also use Idyllic Tutor and run Blinkmoth Nexus instead of Mishra's Factory. It helps alot. To make room for the Tutors I've cut a Crucible, Chalice and Trinisphere. I run 2 Tutors, and 3 Oblivion Rings. You could consider cutting the 4th Armageddon and play an extra land (don't underestimate the power of the basic Plains, I run 7 myself).

For sideboard, I have 4 Chokes, 2 Wrath of Gods, 2 Powder Kegs, the 4th Chalice, the 4th Trinisphere, the 4th Oblivion Ring, 2 Sphere of Law and 2 Pithing Needles.

You could consider variations and put in 2 Tabernacles at Pendrell Vale. I'm not sure what you should cut for it. Perhaps a mana producing land and an Oblivion Ring.

jnosrati
07-02-2009, 01:53 PM
I strongly advice the use of 4 Moats, not the Magus, since Humility shuts it down. Also use Idyllic Tutor and run Blinkmoth Nexus instead of Mishra's Factory. It helps alot. To make room for the Tutors I've cut a Crucible, Chalice and Trinisphere. I run 2 Tutors, and 3 Oblivion Rings. You could consider cutting the 4th Armageddon and play an extra land (don't underestimate the power of the basic Plains, I run 7 myself).

For sideboard, I have 4 Chokes, 2 Wrath of Gods, 2 Powder Kegs, the 4th Chalice, the 4th Trinisphere, the 4th Oblivion Ring, 2 Sphere of Law and 2 Pithing Needles.

You could consider variations and put in 2 Tabernacles at Pendrell Vale. I'm not sure what you should cut for it. Perhaps a mana producing land and an Oblivion Ring.



enchantments-
4moat

4humility
3 oblivion ring

artifacts-
3 crucible of words
3 trinisphere
4 challice of the void
4 mox diamond
3 smokestack

pw-
2 elspeth

sorcery-
3 amrageddon
3 idyllic tutor

land-
5 plains
1 savannah
3 blinkmoth nexus
1 horizon canopy
3 flagstones of trkair
4 wasteland
4 ancient tomb
3 city of traitors

so hows this? aybe take out a nexus for a canopy?

jnosrati
07-02-2009, 01:54 PM
and yes, i went down on elspeth...granted, ill always go to time, what do u think?

MTG-Fan
07-02-2009, 02:39 PM
Question about enchantment tutors:

Is Idyllic Tutor ever worth running over E-Tutor? I mean, it's 3 mana vs. 1 mana. Yes, it isn't card disadvantage like E-Tutor, and you can help pay for it with the Tombs/Cities... does that make it a playable 3 mana tutor in this deck tho?

Arsenal
07-02-2009, 03:05 PM
Question about enchantment tutors:

Is Idyllic Tutor ever worth running over E-Tutor? I mean, it's 3 mana vs. 1 mana. Yes, it isn't card disadvantage like E-Tutor, and you can help pay for it with the Tombs/Cities... does that make it a playable 3 mana tutor in this deck tho?

CotV and 3Sphere + Enlightened Tutor = fail. Many times, you'll be casting CotV @ 1 or 3Sphere on your 1st/2nd turns, then start laying other lockpieces. Enlightened Tutor won't do anything to help you if you take thie route, and Dutch Stax runs more Idyllic Tutor targets than regular Armageddon Stax, so Idyllic may warrant inclusion.

MTG-Fan
07-02-2009, 04:06 PM
CotV and 3Sphere + Enlightened Tutor = fail. Many times, you'll be casting CotV @ 1 or 3Sphere on your 1st/2nd turns, then start laying other lockpieces. Enlightened Tutor won't do anything to help you if you take thie route, and Dutch Stax runs more Idyllic Tutor targets than regular Armageddon Stax, so Idyllic may warrant inclusion.

But in any other deck not running Chalice or Ancient Tomb/City, E-Tutor is almost always better than Idyllic, right? To the point where Idyllic is unplayable outside of a Stax deck?

lorddotm
07-02-2009, 04:52 PM
enchantments-
4moat

4humility
3 oblivion ring

artifacts-
3 crucible of words
3 trinisphere
4 challice of the void
4 mox diamond
3 smokestack

pw-
2 elspeth

sorcery-
3 amrageddon
3 idyllic tutor

land-
5 plains
1 savannah
3 blinkmoth nexus
1 horizon canopy
3 flagstones of trkair
4 wasteland
4 ancient tomb
3 city of traitors

so hows this? aybe take out a nexus for a canopy?

I would go -1 Idyllic Tutor and +1 Elspeth. While it might seem that only two Elsepth should be enough to find her, you have to remember she wins very slowly (if you are on turns without an Elspeth out, but your lock pieces are in place, good luck winning that game) and no one is going to conceed when you don't even have a threat out.

Also, I would go -1 Wasteland +1 City of Traitors. Stax isn't a deck that needs to Wasteland super early on, but it is a deck that needs to get to 3+ mana as fast as possible, which Wasteland hinders, greatly.

jnosrati
07-03-2009, 02:02 AM
@crucible and chalice i can ahve 7
i think 4 chalice 3 crucible, any comments?
chalice owns goyf, bob, cb among other things, its crazy

Skeggi
07-03-2009, 10:52 AM
But in any other deck not running Chalice or Ancient Tomb/City, E-Tutor is almost always better than Idyllic, right? To the point where Idyllic is unplayable outside of a Stax deck?
I totally agree with you. But Dutch Stax simply cannot afford carddisadvantage, and certainly not a card that is dead 75% of the time. You don't want to cast the tutor turn 1 or 2 anyway, you use those turns for Chalices and Trinispheres.

Jnosrati: your list looks alot more solid. I agree with lorddotm that you should go -1 Idyllic Tutor and +1 Elspeth. You really want to keep your win conditions at a minimum of 6 like it is now, and Idyllic Tutor can be very good, it can also be a turn too slow, so 3 seems like too much.

If you have room for 4 Chalices maindeck you should definately do it. I haven't found the space though, since I run 25 lands in my version. But in my case, perhaps an Oblivion Ring could make way.

The reason I run so much lands is because I have a fairly nonbasic hate meta, and you want to guarantee you can hit :2::w::w: without too much effort.

jnosrati
07-07-2009, 07:55 PM
why not ajani vengeant? is splashing red that bad? one r/w duel and i can win with ajani. if they smehow kill it i have crucible to return it. ajani locks them out a lot, esp since i can tap their lands at the begining of their turn. once theyre tapped out i armageddon and burn a lot

jnosrati
07-07-2009, 07:57 PM
and if i dont draw armageddon, go for ajani's 3rd ability.
i think -1 elspeth, -1 armageddon +1 ajani +1 something is a good call

lorddotm
07-07-2009, 08:00 PM
and if i dont draw armageddon, go for ajani's 3rd ability.
i think -1 elspeth, -1 armageddon +1 ajani +1 something is a good call

No.
You're wrong.
Elspeth is a lot better to win.
Armageddon is a lot better to kill lands.
Less colours is a lot better to be able to play magic.

jnosrati
07-07-2009, 08:44 PM
spere of resistance?
bottles cloister
aura of silence in board?
black for nether void seems like gg

jnosrati
07-07-2009, 08:47 PM
black for the abyss???just a random thought
abyss/nether void/engineered plague/cranial extraction seems like a wicked sideboard

ykpon
07-07-2009, 10:04 PM
spere of resistance?
unlike vintage one, legacy stax can be somehow hurted with sphere too. though, it's nice as an additional sb hate against storm combos if u expect a lot of those.

bottles cloister
not bad in general, but to dangerous, because everybody will side Grips in anyway. if you want a late game draw engine, run Horizon Canopy + Crucible.

aura of silence in board?
good choise if you expect some Enchantress, Affinity and mirrors. if you don't, then Oblivion Ring is better because of mana cost.

black for nether void seems like gg
in my opinion void is a great stax card, but it needs another deck, something that can easily play under it: Mishra's Factories, Tombs of Urami and so on. in Dutch Stax its synergy with our Moats, Humilities and Elspeths isn't amazing at all. unlike Trinisphere, it can sometimes slow us down more than our opponent.

abyss
with Abyss online, Elspeth can work only with our manlands. also, being somehow the 5th copy of Smokestack, it has quite poor synergy with the original one.

engineered plague
tribal decks should be already a good matchup, but if you want something else against them, then why not? btw, great synergy with humility.

cranial extraction
the only black card i'm splashing for at the moment. haven't tested it enough yet, but at least it's the best answer to Krosan Grip we have.

Skeggi
07-08-2009, 03:38 AM
spere of resistance?
bottles cloister
aura of silence in board?
black for nether void seems like gg
Lovely ideas. Also Ajani Vengeant. I've tried them all except Nether Void. You should test them too. Just because I didn't like them shouldn't mean you won't. Please test them and let us know :smile:.

jnosrati
07-10-2009, 02:58 PM
and with brack, we have urborg, tomb of...
as a 1 of it seems pretty sweet,
although it seems to be amazing, its looking like id prefer a scrubland

jnosrati
07-10-2009, 02:59 PM
but, not taking 2 damage every time u tap would be cool

kand: tap-2 take to damage or tap-b
crazy shit

jnosrati
07-10-2009, 03:01 PM
lastly, fetchlands are freekin stupid for this deck. just no. you take more damage over the city, which can be fatal. and you have less plainscount, which can be dreadful. esp with grave hate boarded against u. run 3 plains and 4 armagedon? what are u, stupid?

jnosrati
07-10-2009, 03:03 PM
would a one of lotus petal be so horrible btw? i dont think its great but possibly worth testing. You need mana fast. if you dont get it against many decks asap, u die. id rather run a lotus petal to make me get the mana more often than mulligan into 6..

Atwa
07-10-2009, 03:47 PM
Wow, nice way to quadripe-post.

There is an edit button in every post you make, I suggest you use it. And please start using your shift button (at least one of them).

jnosrati
07-10-2009, 05:17 PM
Sorry bout that

jnosrati
07-10-2009, 05:36 PM
ok, so another question to raise is the brokenness of trinisphere vs another oblivion ring


heres the deck atm, i changed from green to black for sideboard plague and cranial, but kept the canopy just for draw.

3 wasteland
1 scrubland
4 city
4 tomb
3 flagstones
1 canopy
5 plains
3 nexus

3 armageddon

3 smokestack
4 chalice
3 crucible
3-4 trinisphere
2-3 o ring
3 elspeth
4 humility
4 mox d
4 moat
2 idyllic tutor.

sorry about that string of comments.

so 3spere murders combo, but its still pretty dang good v other decks, also, we need help vs combo...ant anyone? also, 3spere is key vs random.burn, daze, force of will, contagion, any storming, etc.
im concerned about ant and merfolk
ant will have rituals dead with chalice if were lucky, but we win wayyy late in the game. they can jsut draw up swamps.
merfolk is just good. counters what they can, plays a buncha creatures, drops an echoing truth, and wins. chalice for 2 is key. I think 4x chalice shold not be debated.

jsut wanted to add....is there by a ny magical chance someone out there with 3 mox d's and 3 moats for trade? i have them proxied....I am aware of the price tag. thanks

Skeggi
07-11-2009, 05:18 AM
merfolk is just good. counters what they can
This is simply not true. I've found Merfolk to be quite an easy match-up. They may be half men half fish, but they can't pass a Moat :wink:

Merfolk only have 4 real counters: Force of Will. You can play around the Dazes if you just keep an eye on it. After that Humility and Moat shuts them down. Even without Moat, Humility + Elspeth often equals a win. Just remember that because of Aether Vial, your Trinispheres and Chalices aren't as effective against them. If you're on the play, Chalice@1 on turn 1 is a very strong play.

Against ANT the opposite is true. You want Trinisphere asap and if you can you want Chalice@2 against Recall.

Tinefol
07-12-2009, 05:09 AM
Annul is a real counter too. Merfolk players in my area maindeck them.

jnosrati
07-12-2009, 11:00 PM
running-
3 wasteland
1 scrubland
4 city
4 tomb
3 flagstones
1 canopy
5 plains
3 nexus

3 armageddon

3 smokestack
4 chalice
3 crucible
3-4 trinisphere
2-3 o ring
3 elspeth
4 humility
4 mox d
4 moat
2 idyllic tutor.

thoughts on sideboard?
cranial looks like a must have, englineered plague seems like overkill, what would u all run?

jnosrati
07-12-2009, 11:30 PM
This is simply not true. I've found Merfolk to be quite an easy match-up. They may be half men half fish, but they can't pass a Moat :wink:

Against ANT the opposite is true. You want Trinisphere asap and if you can you want Chalice@2 against Recall.

so say i have chalice at 1 and 2, looks like i have it. is ld enough to keep em off 5 mana ie ad naseum? all i have mid game is smokestack and armageddon ,and this is best case scenario. what would u say is the percent win v ant? what would u board v ant? what would you board v countertop (i guess needle) and landstill?

sideboard-3 needle
2-3 replenish
conversion?
2 o ring
that one mana white counterspell?
lapse of certainty?
suppression field
defense grid?
2 -4cranial extraction

reactions?
counters in the board seem smart esp the 1 mana one but i cant remember it. it secures your moat/humility ino ;lay ie counter a counter, or u can counter some junk that u dont like. lapse also stalls the game, which is good for stax, itgets you up one land drop, seems almost like a free turn here....
maybe maindeck lapse?
reactions ?

what about top for consistance?
alternate win cons-charbelcher seems it might be a fater kill than elspeth, even if no red, its a few damage/turn.
top seems ok, lapse seems amazing


what about crystal vein???

Skeggi
07-13-2009, 05:24 AM
so say i have chalice at 1 and 2, looks like i have it. is ld enough to keep em off 5 mana ie ad naseum? all i have mid game is smokestack and armageddon ,and this is best case scenario. what would u say is the percent win v ant? what would u board v ant? what would you board v countertop (i guess needle) and landstill?
With Chalice@1 and Chalice@2 you've cut off all their bounce, their Dark Rituals, Cabal Ritual, Infernal Tutor, Mystical Tutor, Ponder and Brainstorm. If they somehow manage to scrape together 5 mana for Ad Nauseum (or 3 mana for Doomsday or 4 mana for Ill-Gotten Gains), they need another 4 mana for Tendrils of Agony or Empty the Warrens (they'll probably go for Empty the Warrens here, so a Moat would be cool). With only LEDs Petals and 2 or 3 Chrome Moxes to build stormcount this is very tricky. I'd say you have a 90% chance of winning here. For a complete lock you now only need a Chalice@0 or Trinisphere.

Against CounterTop I board Choke and Pithing Needle. Against Landstill the same. If you're not running green but black, you could use Engineered Plague against Landstill.

The rest of the questions I'll let you figure out yourself because it really depends on the situation, or I don't have experience with it. I haven't tested Lapse of Certainty for instance, but that's because you'd have to keep :2::w: open for it, and I can't imagine a situation where you can afford that, unless you're already winning or losing.

keidot
07-13-2009, 09:35 PM
I'm just going to chime in here a bit since Skeggi answered the bulk of the questions and I'm in agreement with what's been stated by him. I will say however that Mana Tithe and Lapse of Certainty are sup-optimal in regards to this deck.

Beginning with Mana Tithe, I feel this deck is not the ideal for this card simply because we play superior cards in the form of Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere. When is Mana Tithe better than these cards when they attempt to accomplish the same thing? Certainly not when you're on the play as either Chalice or Trinisphere is a superiour play. When on the draw, this card is a weak reactive solution to a deck that is made of proactive plays. Mana Tithe will only protect your plays when your opponent is at a disadvantage in terms of land drops. In regards to symmetrical game states, Mana Tithe is bad because in the control match up as the control player will most likely NOT tap out on his turn to maximize your Mana Tithe play. Against control, Choke (assuming you're splashing green) is the SUPERIOUR choice. In fact, Mana Tithe only becomes a viable option if you pair it with Choke but at that point, you should be examining your sideboard and determine if they're are better uses for that sideboard slot.

Another way to examine the issue of Mana Tithe is consider Enlightened Tutor. For a single white, it finds any of our lock pieces. Redundancy of lock pieces is much more powerful than having counter magic because if we live in fear of the Force of Will/Negate/Counterspell/Annul, we have to wait til we draw both a lock and our counter. If instead we had more lock pieces, we are given more chances at all points during the game to set the pieces into place before we put our lock on the game. So given that point, when Tutor will simply let us pass the turn and get our redundancy or answers, why do we not play that? The simple answer is Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere and a myriad of other problems that stare at us across the table (Countertop, for example). Why risk the decks only way to be consistent (through redundancy) with something that doesn't necessarily help lock the game?

Lapse of Certainty is a step in the right direction regarding counterspells for us but it's still a problematic issue. If we consider that we value any chance at consistency in this deck, what does our loss of consistency yield us by playing Lapse? In all situations where you draw a lapse, it doesn't yield any immediate benefit to our game state. It does not start a lock, it does not continue a lock and it does not complete a lock. All it serves to do is hopefully give us more time to establish a lock or preserve our lock but aren't there better cards that do this for us? Doesn't the combination of Humility and Moat or Trinisphere, Armageddon and Crucible do a better job of locking down our game then Lapse? If that's the case, wouldn't we want to play the optimal card to increase our chances to draw these cards?

I have nothing against either of these cards. I have played and still play Mana Tithe in my Death and Taxes deck with Cataclysm to help force the asymmetry it needs to be strong. That is why it's not played in this deck. These different archetypes are apples and oranges and I feel that one-shot reactive cards do not help this deck as much as the constant effects it can yield from playing permanent-based cards.

Might chime in later with more but too warm where I live right now:<

jnosrati
07-17-2009, 12:25 AM
running-
3 wasteland
1 scrubland
4 city
4 tomb
3 flagstones
1 canopy
5 plains
3 nexus

3 armageddon

3 smokestack
4 chalice
3-4 crucible
3-4 trinisphere
2-3 o ring
3 elspeth
4 humility
4 mox d
4 moat
2 idyllic tutor.

i can run a total of 9 crucible+3spere+oring how would you break it up? is the third nexis really nessesary, maybe a flagstones would be better cuz im running black and have one source i need to fetch? That being said im leaning towards 3x3spere 2x oring 4x crucible, but need feedback

ykpon
07-17-2009, 07:02 AM
i can run a total of 9 crucible+3spere+oring how would you break it up?
4 Crucibles
4 Trinispheres
1 Ring

btw, does Nexus still get flying under Humility? though even if it works, i'm still not sure about running it over Factory, which is a way better without Moat online, especially with Humility.

jnosrati
07-18-2009, 11:18 PM
4 Crucibles
4 Trinispheres
1 Ring

btw, does Nexus still get flying under Humility? though even if it works, i'm still not sure about running it over Factory, which is a way better without Moat online, especially with Humility.

i think o ring is really important though. it does get flying btw

keidot
07-19-2009, 02:05 AM
4 Crucible
3 Trinisphere
2 Oblivion Ring

These are the numbers I run in my Stax deck and it works out well enough. Though Trinisphere is an amazing lock card, I feel multiples of Crucible are more crucial as it allows to maximize the backbreaking plays of the deck.

Regarding Nexus versus Factory, this was talked about earlier in the thread but it's because Nexus gives us an out versus flying creatures. The benefits of Factory is that it enables you to have the best defensive position with humility down and is a single point of damage faster as a clock. However, Factory does little to help is in regards to a resolved Tombstalker or other large flying creatures; the same applies to Moat. Nexus helps us buy time to find Humility or O. Ring.

ykpon
07-19-2009, 01:57 PM
i think o ring is really important though. it does get flying btw
and you have 2 tutors to get it if you need it. ring is ok but i just can't understand why to cut Trinisphere. if it resolves turn 1-2, it can win a game by itself against something like ANT or burn and the most important thing is that it also wins against almost all blue decks when followed by Smokestack/Geddon/Moat/Elspeth which they can't counter anymore. sure, it sucks in multiples, but it's also bad in the late game, especially w/o geddons. if 3 is enough for you to consistantly get it in your start hand, than ok. if you aren't so lucky, then, i suppose, this deck should be as square as possible.
just an example: when playing goblins topdecking lackey in the late game is bad. often even a land is better. also if you have already resolved turn one lackey, second one in your hand is pretty useless, you wish it was warchief, ringleader or something else. but you still run 4 Lackeys in your deck, just because it's that fucking awesome turn 1, you even never really think about cutting them down. same thing with Trinisphere, i think.

Skeggi
07-20-2009, 03:47 AM
The problem is ofcourse, that for a turn 1 Trinisphere you need a double-land, another land, a Mox and a Trinisphere in your hand. For a turn 1 lackey you only need a Mountain and a Lackey. Turn 2 Trinispheres are still ok though.

Maveric78f
07-20-2009, 04:13 AM
Why play 4 crucible ? It's not game breaking in itself. You'd need another card to make it broken. Even crucible + wasteland is average in too many situations. In addition to that multiple crucibles suck and crucible is usless in first turns contrarily to trinisphere. Crucible should be as 2 or 3 of. Definitely not 4. I would do that before considering to remove any trinisphere copy. At the opposite I understand that you might want to play 4 moat, humility, elspeth or stax, even if they suck inmultiple, simply because they are game breaking in themselves.

keidot
07-20-2009, 06:23 AM
Erm, one of the strengths of Stax is in being able to maintain its namesake. I don't know if you've ever had a Smokestacks at 3 or been facing a Smokestacks at 3 but it's a 'fairly strong' play, to say the least. As well, an early Smokestacks at 1 that's maintained by saccing the same Flagstones over and over is a very constricting play. These plays are only possible by playing Crucible. As well, Crucible helps break the symmetry of one of the strongest plays in the format, namely Armageddon. If those reasons aren't enough to sell the reason why Stax should play a four Crucibles (an item that has been brought up in the Armageddon Stax thread with similar conclusions), it is important to remember that since we run Idyllic Tutor, Crucible lacks redundancy versus the other enchantment based lock items in the deck which help to warrant the four of in the maindeck.

ykpon
07-20-2009, 06:33 AM
Maveric78f, you don't need another card to make crucible broken. you need crucible to make other cards broken: geddon, smokestack etc.
also, crucible in hand allows you to keep a "two mana land, plains, mox, something else" hand without real risk not to be able to play your 4cc's. and it somehow protects your lands from opposing wastelands. wastelock, reccuring manlands and canopy engine are just nice late game bonuses to all these things.

upd: kk, keidot, you are faster ><

Maveric78f
07-20-2009, 07:49 AM
With my experience of stax decks, you don't need crucible to make stax broken. Of course, it's better with than without, but the other decks are anyway more impacted by your disruption: trinisphere and chalice. Other decks usually lay less than 40 permanents when you play yourself 56+. in addition to that you are the controller stax so that your can handle the counters and sac it when needed. Crucible is too often overkill actually. That's why 2 or 3 is usually enough in stax decks. Maybe Dutch stax is different but I don't get why.

Skeggi
07-20-2009, 08:16 AM
I actually have to agree with Maveric78f on this one: Dutch Stax relies less on Armageddon than the traditional Armageddon Stax. Therefor you can afford to cut the number of Crucibles to 3. Dutch Stax is all about locking your opponent with Chalices, Trinisphere, Moat and Humility. The kill comes from Armageddon/Smokestack/Elspeth. Crucible only fits in the picture because it has nice synergy with alot of the cards, and while it's extremely good, it's not a necessity.

That said: he is talking about Stax decks in general; while Armageddon Stax really needs 4 Crucibles.

jnosrati
07-21-2009, 04:52 AM
i took out a nexus. i thinn 2 nexus, 3 elspeth, 4 wastelnd is a better build than 3 nex 3 wl 3 elspeth

Skeggi
07-21-2009, 04:59 AM
That's a meta call. With the upcoming of Merfolk, I can imagine Wasteland is more valuable than Blinkmoth Nexus to kill off the Mutavaults.

jnosrati
07-22-2009, 12:14 AM
also wastelock in general seems more important than my crappier of the 2 win condition, even if its uncounterable, i have 2 more for blue decks w fow..and thats only if they didnt already waste the fow on something else before i killed their lands off

with some testing i think red si the best splash. 1-2 r/w lands can open u up to a lot of powerful removal. boil, pyroclasm, seizmic assult(rr is very hard, but it is both removal and a win condition as well as great with crucible, and can eb tutored for)

other random possibilities(though not all great)
shattering spree
mana flare(unless it's banned)
reb/pyroblast
aether flash???
soem sort of x burn finisher(banefire?)(better than blinkmoth vs a lackey)
braid of fire(its a strethch, dotn criticize im putting otu everythign thats possible, maybe well find new synergies, please be open)

smash also seems powerful. costs 3 through 3 sphere and cantrips.

welder?

Melwis
08-08-2009, 05:46 PM
Would like to here some feedback on this list I recently started playing:

// Lands
3 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
2 [REW] Wasteland
4 [EX] City of Traitors
11 [APL] Plains (3)
2 [DS] Blinkmoth Nexus

// Spells
2 [P3] Ravages of War
2 [5E] Armageddon
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [US] Smokestack
4 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
3 [TE] Humility
3 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [MOR] Idyllic Tutor
3 [LG] Moat

Also, why isn't this deck in the "Established Decks" section?

Paradigm Shift
08-08-2009, 06:20 PM
Would like to here some feedback on this list I recently started playing:

// Lands
3 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
2 [REW] Wasteland
4 [EX] City of Traitors
11 [APL] Plains (3)
2 [DS] Blinkmoth Nexus

// Spells
2 [P3] Ravages of War
2 [5E] Armageddon
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [US] Smokestack
4 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
3 [TE] Humility
3 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [MOR] Idyllic Tutor
3 [LG] Moat

Also, why isn't this deck in the "Established Decks" section?

Why Idyllic Tutor over Enlightened Tutor? Just because one creates card-disadvantage (but allows you to tutor earlier, at instant speed, and allows you to get crucible, smokestack, etc etc)?

Also, why Blinkmoth over Mishra's Factory? I understand that it attacks over Moat (and am unsure if it retains flying under humility, I believe it does but I'm not sure at all). But do you find that worth it over the extra P/T that Factory has? Especially only as a 2-of, with no way to tutor for it.

It seems to me your deck would be more consistent if you either cut the wastelands and went to the full 4 manlands, or vice versa. Without any means to tutor or quickly draw into your support lands, it's going to be random whether you have LD going one game, or manland beatdown. I find in Stax, consistency is key.

Also, when you make a post with a decklist, you should explain your card choices.

Melwis
08-08-2009, 06:58 PM
Why Idyllic Tutor over Enlightened Tutor? Just because one creates card-disadvantage (but allows you to tutor earlier, at instant speed, and allows you to get crucible, smokestack, etc etc)?

Also, why Blinkmoth over Mishra's Factory? I understand that it attacks over Moat (and am unsure if it retains flying under humility, I believe it does but I'm not sure at all). But do you find that worth it over the extra P/T that Factory has? Especially only as a 2-of, with no way to tutor for it.

It seems to me your deck would be more consistent if you either cut the wastelands and went to the full 4 manlands, or vice versa. Without any means to tutor or quickly draw into your support lands, it's going to be random whether you have LD going one game, or manland beatdown. I find in Stax, consistency is key.

Also, when you make a post with a decklist, you should explain your card choices.

I'm sorry, you're right I should have.

Enlightened Tutor: The first or second turn you really don't want to cast this if you instead can land either a Chalice at 1 or a Trinisphere. I guess it could still be OK with a Trinisphere out but since Chalice at 1 is really bad coupled with it I think Idyllic Tutor is simply better. There is a reason why we don't run cards with CMC 1.

Blinkmoth Nexus: I really haven't played with this alot but the reason I chose it is because I was reading in some of the recent posts that it does get flying under Humility and it helps when facing flyers like Tombstalker when you don't have Humility out.

Nexus/Wasteland count: I don't know if focusing on one would be better but for now I will keep it at a 2/2 split because I want to try Nexus out before I simply dismiss it and without it my only chance of winning is through Elspeth both producing soldiers and giving them flying. Wasteland is awesome in a deck running 4 Crucible but this deck doesn't focus on land destruction so I tought having 2 would be "enough".

I also started wondering if people think that 4 geddon effects is the best count to run in this deck or could you go even lower down to 2-3? Would making the following changes improve my list:

-1 Armageddon
-1 Ravages of War

+1 Humilty
+1 Moat

What do you think?

K_Rot_T
08-10-2009, 09:34 AM
Uhm wouldn't be 4 Humlitiy, 4 Moat and 2 Tutors the total overkill?
And i don't really See, why you play the Tutor if you not even play O.-Ring.
I mean you play the Tutor, so you have access to lot of Solutions.
Why not go up to 4 Tutors and put a Toolbox in this Deck.

Problem with cutting the Geddon effects is, you alraedy play only 2 Wastes, so
2Wastes+2Geddon+3 Stack+(4Mox) makes Crucible alot weaker, because you've got only 7 Effective Cards who really use Crucible.

Melwis
08-10-2009, 06:36 PM
Uhm wouldn't be 4 Humlitiy, 4 Moat and 2 Tutors the total overkill?
And i don't really See, why you play the Tutor if you not even play O.-Ring.
I mean you play the Tutor, so you have access to lot of Solutions.
Why not go up to 4 Tutors and put a Toolbox in this Deck.

Hmm I wanted the list to be consistent in the way that I would always find Humility or Moat fast enough but I do agree that when running Idyllic Tutor it would be wise to include atleast a single Oblivion Ring when you just have to deal with a certain card. Maybe something like this:

-1 Humility
-1 Moat

+1 Idyllic Tutor
+1 Oblivion Ring


Problem with cutting the Geddon effects is, you alraedy play only 2 Wastes, so
2Wastes+2Geddon+3 Stack+(4Mox) makes Crucible alot weaker, because you've got only 7 Effective Cards who really use Crucible.

I don't understand what you mean with this. You're saying I should run geddon effects just because my list also run Crucible? Even though if what i'm replacing will make the deck better (which is what I was asking)? This deck does not abuse geddon effects like Armageddon Stax but Crucible is still there for the cards you mention plus recurring our manlands.

K_Rot_T
08-10-2009, 07:41 PM
Hmm I wanted the list to be consistent in the way that I would always find Humility or Moat
Consistency is nice, but you have alot of Cards in Stax which you only need one of, which are 3Sphere, Crucible,Humilty and Moat. Every additional one of them you draw is dead Material (except for Saccing to Stack), which is quite hard for a Deck with no Card draw at all. And if you additionally play the Tutor, who searches most of the time for Moat or Humility you have another dead card, you understand what I mean?



I don't understand what you mean with this. You're saying I should run geddon effects just because my list also run Crucible? Even though if what i'm replacing will make the deck better (which is what I was asking)? This deck does not abuse geddon effects like Armageddon Stax but Crucible is still there for the cards you mention plus recurring our manlands.
Ofcourse Crucible still can do all that, BUT it will do it a lot less often than for example in Armageddon Stax. You talked about consistency in your Deck and getting a Crucible on the board should have a giant Impact on the game, if not nearly win it. Because you can abuse it so hard. But with all your tutoring and so on, it might happen, that Crucible hits, and the only thing you're doing is chumpbluck a bit.
Also Crucible is one of the few cards in this deck, which gives real cardadvantage, dont underestimate that.

Melwis
08-11-2009, 05:58 AM
Consistency is nice, but you have alot of Cards in Stax which you only need one of, which are 3Sphere, Crucible,Humilty and Moat. Every additional one of them you draw is dead Material (except for Saccing to Stack), which is quite hard for a Deck with no Card draw at all. And if you additionally play the Tutor, who searches most of the time for Moat or Humility you have another dead card, you understand what I mean?

But you can't be sure that you will land the first Humility or Moat that you play or that it will stay out for very long. Besides, if you do land either of these against many decks you simply win so there is no need to draw much else but these.


Ofcourse Crucible still can do all that, BUT it will do it a lot less often than for example in Armageddon Stax. You talked about consistency in your Deck and getting a Crucible on the board should have a giant Impact on the game, if not nearly win it. Because you can abuse it so hard. But with all your tutoring and so on, it might happen, that Crucible hits, and the only thing you're doing is chumpbluck a bit.
Also Crucible is one of the few cards in this deck, which gives real cardadvantage, dont underestimate that.

So how many geddon effects do you suggest this deck should include in it's list?

jnosrati
08-13-2009, 02:53 AM
personally, i beleive the right number of crucible is 3, it is important to get, but you dont need it turn one like trinisphere. Also, It does nothing if you get 2. also, i took out an elspeth for a chrome mox. this deck is about exploding, not killing. once my opponents are locked out, they usually scoop. Not that i'm making the deck with that expectation, but elspeth is useless until my hand is basically empty unless i' desperate for smokestack synergy, why is the set # @ 3??? I would much prefer to have 3sphere out turn 1 and elspeth a few turns later. also, blinkmoth wins on it's own, provided i don't get decked.

sample hand i got in testing-
chalice, chalice, chrome mox, land, humility, mox d, land
what about -1 city, +1 more chrome mox?
ditching an elspeth, tutor or lock piece could be a good idea. we could have 2, we could jsut relly want to lock out. armageddon seems to be the only one i dont want to give to chrome mox, due to the synergy
armageddon(i have chrome and flagstones)
next turn, city, moat

hasanyone really tested -1 on elspeth, or chrome mox?

Arsenal
09-06-2009, 09:07 PM
Although it's semi-useless without Humility out, what do you guys think of Reverence (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=84371) as a budget replacement for Moat?

Without Humility, it still stops some strategies cold, and with Humility, it's just as good as Moat... or should I just stick to Armageddon Stax?

morgan_coke
09-06-2009, 10:23 PM
reverence also plays nicely with meekstone.

Although if you're looking for a budget moat replacement, ghostly prison just seems better.

Arsenal
09-07-2009, 12:16 AM
That's sorta what I was thinking, but Reverence just has a "oh, cool" factor to it. Danger of cool things I guess.

SteakKnife
09-10-2009, 02:16 AM
I've started playing dutch stax at local tournies but need help sideboarding.

I've been running the following SB:
Krosan Grip
Choke
Defense Grid
4th Trinisphere
Sphere of Law
Pithing Needle

My only loss tonight was against my friend who played BGW with mb pridemage, duress, thoughsieze, hymm, waste, sink hole, vindicate. Post he brings in grips. I wanted to know if compost is worthwhile or what you would do to combat this.

My major concern is I do not know what to take out against decks. I can figure out what could go in but the deck seems too tight to really pull stuff out.

Thanks!

JamSpot
09-10-2009, 07:20 AM
I've had the same issues with my sideboarding. The deck is quite tight and I think that I make a lot of sideboarding mistakes. This is probably the reason why I've not had great success with the deck. I'm also not 100% sure on what a good and bad opening hand is. Should I always try and have a two mana producing land in my opening hand?

SteakKnife
09-11-2009, 06:11 PM
I played a small legacy tournament last night. 15 people. Went 7-0 with my stax deck.

My SB was:
3x Pithing Needle
3x Sphere of Law
3x Compost
3x Choke
3x Defense Grid

I remember playing against the following:
2x Red Burn Decks
Sided out: 3x Armageddon In: 3x Sphere of Law

1x Dredge (Played him twice)
SO: 3x Smokestack 1x Armageddon SI: 3x Compost 1x Pithing Needle

1x Fish
SO: 4x Armageddon, SI: 3x Choke 1x Defense Grid

I don't remember my other matches.

I found Pithing Needle to be not very useful but I didn't play against a deck running EE, pridemage, or keg so I'm debating keeping them.

Choke was very good against fish.

Defense grid was overkill when I can land a Trinisphere but I think it may be necessary.

Compost was good against dredge and I think useful against anything running discard or sinkhole.

JamSpot
09-11-2009, 06:29 PM
Awesome, congrats!

What decklist did you play? What are you thinking of replacing the Needles with?

DukeDemonKn1ght
09-11-2009, 07:39 PM
New card... Seems good in a Stax shell that already uses Elspeth, although I'm not sure if Humility blanks his triggered ability.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=95172&stc=1&d=1252669088

Anyhow... Thoughts?

ClearSkies
09-11-2009, 07:54 PM
New card... Seems good in a Stax shell that already uses Elspeth, although I'm not sure if Humility blanks his triggered ability.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=95172&stc=1&d=1252669088

Anyhow... Thoughts?

Yes, Humility gets rid of its triggered ability.

SteakKnife
09-12-2009, 04:19 AM
Awesome, congrats!

What decklist did you play? What are you thinking of replacing the Needles with?

Thanks!

MD
1x Decree of Justice
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4x Armageddon
4x Humility
4x Ghostly Prison
3x Trinisphere
4x Crucible of Worlds
4x Smokestack
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
1x Ghost Quarter
2x Wasteland
2x Horizon Canopy
2x Savannah
3x Mishra's Factory
4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Flagstones of Trokair
4x Plains

SB
3x Choke
3x Compost
3x Defense Grid
3x Pithing Needle
3x Sphere of Law

Regarding my choices...

Decree of Justice: Never once played/cycled this card. Probably should just be another Elspeth but I think I'll run it till I find something I think would be better.

Horizon Canopy was great! Sped up the deck searching for ways to finish the lock or find a kill condition. The one damage from tapping it was a problem in only one game.

6x Plains was not an issue.

Ghost Quarter was actually useful because a few decks didn't run more than 1-3 basics so it wasn't much worse than wasteland and better in a few cases.

Running only 3 Trinisphere did not seem to be a big issue. I can see siding the 4th. I do not think I will replace Decree with 4th 3sphere as I like having the extra win condition.

I think Sphere of Law will be good if goblins tries to come back but otherwise could probably be something else. I'm not really sure. I think bad matchups are disruption/LD and trygon. Compost is in to try to deal with the first but I'm not sure what could go in to deal with Trygon. Only a humility stops him well.

Any thoughts would be appreciated!

Note: I reread Skeggi's primer and while I know that Dutch stax runs moat over ghostly prison I believe my list is much closer to Dutch Stax than Armageddon Stax. I am sticking much closer to Dutch stax win conditions. Also, the dredge list in my area runs wonder in order to make flying zombies. Ghostly prison shuts that down much more efficiently and is easier to cast first turn.

Arsenal
09-12-2009, 07:40 AM
But Prison doesn't protect Elspeth (your main win condition) as well as Moat does. Just saying.

Also, if your meta is filled with retarded stuff like LD, Predator, etc. then Karmic Justice may be appropriate as a SB card. If you're facing a lot of Burn, but also a fair amount of overall nasty stuff (discard,etc) then perhaps Ivory Mask may be what you're looking for.

Sphere of Law is quite good though as it almost completely shuts down Goblins and burn, but also crippling Zoo/Goyf Sligh to a fair degree as well (just beware of Pridemage). I don't know, it's a pretty good SB card, imo.

FieryBalrog
11-16-2009, 09:58 AM
Is this deck dead compared to Geddon Stax? I was wondering if there were any new developments along this line in creating White Stax and it seems like Dutch Stax became popular and then died down quite a bit.

Skeggi
11-16-2009, 10:04 AM
Well, I don't play it anymore. Or any kind of Stax for that matter, because they're generally pretty bad decks (which can get lucky, but that's it). But I do think that the traditional Stax is better because you get to use Baneslayer Angel. However, these kinds of decks can completely own a small local meta.

sauce
11-16-2009, 12:32 PM
I've started playing dutch stax at local tournies but need help sideboarding.

I've been running the following SB:
Krosan Grip
Choke
Defense Grid
4th Trinisphere
Sphere of Law
Pithing Needle

My only loss tonight was against my friend who played BGW with mb pridemage, duress, thoughsieze, hymm, waste, sink hole, vindicate. Post he brings in grips. I wanted to know if compost is worthwhile or what you would do to combat this.

My major concern is I do not know what to take out against decks. I can figure out what could go in but the deck seems too tight to really pull stuff out.

Thanks!

Good tech is Karmic Justice vs decks that try to wreck your permanents.

FieryBalrog
11-16-2009, 06:11 PM
Well, I don't play it anymore. Or any kind of Stax for that matter, because they're generally pretty bad decks (which can get lucky, but that's it). But I do think that the traditional Stax is better because you get to use Baneslayer Angel. However, these kinds of decks can completely own a small local meta.

I think White Stax variants certainly aren't bad decks per se. They are bad vs wide field of opponents but they can be quite powerful vs certain fields of opponents. I don't think non-white Stax decks are quite as good atm though.

And yea, I guess you could say they are "bad decks" in the tournament pro player sense since they are not as comfortably reliable as decks packing tons of brainstorm effects etc., but they are certainly powerful without needing to get lucky.

Skeggi
11-17-2009, 05:59 AM
'Bad' is probably too strong a word. Steakknife proved that by totally owning a 7-round tournament, although I somewhat doubt a tournament with 15 people having 7 rounds (it was probably 5 rounds + top4? that would make sense...). Good job on that by the way, Steakknife. And on a side note, yes, I do think that DoJ has to be an Elspeth, since your soldiers can't jump over a Moat without her.

Playing Stax requires a good knowledge on how to mull correctly, and some luck with your opening hand and match-ups, but I guess the latter counts for every deck.

SteakKnife
02-25-2010, 03:09 AM
I haven't been playing legacy for the past few months as MN had a GP and thus I was playing lots of sealed and then I just took a break. So I'm wondering if anyone has had any success with Dutch Stax lately? I've looked through the Zen/Ww and can't find anything that would be better than what we've already ran.

I did see a deck running Karakas and wondered if someone else has tested it? It seems to be very limited in use.

Looking at the Armageddon Stax forums I see some people are trying Suppression Field main... They haven't posted positive results so I am doubtful of that being a solution. Maybe I will try running 2-3 main but it just seems hard enough to find room for necessary cards as it is.

I have a big tourney coming up and am trying to decide if this is even competitive anymore or if I should learn something new or go back to Zoo. I expect every major deck to be there en masse as well as many home-brews.

Skeggi
02-25-2010, 03:21 AM
Suppression Field hinders your Manland, Elspeth, Wasteland. I don't think it's any good for Stax or Dutch Stax in particular. To answer the competetive question: it's about just as competitive as Solidarity. I wouldn't bring it to a big tournament; there are just too many cases where the deck vomits in your face and doesn't give you WW.

SteakKnife
02-25-2010, 04:05 PM
I didn't really think through the Suppression Field thing for MD... I'm currently siding it. I guess I'll work on learning a new deck...

Steveman
02-25-2010, 05:24 PM
Here's some recent results I've made with Dutch Stax

http://magic-league.com/deck/58795/legacy_t15.html#Armageddon%20Stax50747

http://magic-league.com/deck/59208/legacy_t15.html#Dutch%20Stax50747

I forsake man-lands for more Plains to give us more mana consistency since many of our spells require WW.

SteakKnife
02-26-2010, 12:55 AM
Here's some recent results I've made with Dutch Stax

http://magic-league.com/deck/58795/legacy_t15.html#Armageddon%20Stax50747

http://magic-league.com/deck/59208/legacy_t15.html#Dutch%20Stax50747

I forsake man-lands for more Plains to give us more mana consistency since many of our spells require WW.

Congrats on placing! How big were these tournaments? Do you recall what you played against?

As I don't have moat I run ghostly prison and thus have a little less of a WW need.

Steveman
02-26-2010, 01:28 AM
One of them was 31 players, the other was 39.

I don't remember what I faced in the one where I took second except for the UW Fish knocking me out in the finals :/

The one where I placed 3rd, my matchups were like this

Round 1: UGw Countertop Progenitus

Round 2: Some weird Survival Countertop Stifle / Naught deck

Round 3: Lands

Round 4: Bye

Round 5: Knocked out by ANT

I've been playing Stax (Dutch / Angel hybrid for a while, pretty much 100% Dutch now) for the past 4 years. I'm pretty convinced that my list now is what I would call the "optimal" build, hopefully I'll have a primer written for it during spring break or something. I exclusively play on Magic-League, and have topped other big tournaments (1st place in a 54 person single elim trial, top 8 in a 66 player / 6-rounds of swiss "master" tournament.) Also, there's gonna be another Legacy Master this Sunday that I plan to compete in :)

SteakKnife
03-08-2010, 05:56 AM
So I played in a 46 person Time Walk tourney and as I didn't have time to get comfortable playing another deck I just stuck with Stax. I managed to go 4-1-1 in the prelims before I lost first round in the top 8. I got a Bayou for my efforts.


MD
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3x Oblivion Ring
4x Armageddon
3x Humility
3x Ghostly Prison
1x Moat
3x Trinisphere
4x Crucible of Worlds
4x Smokestack
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
1x Ghost Quarter
3x Wasteland
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Savannah
3x Mishra's Factory
3x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
3x Flagstones of Trokair
4x Plains
1x Nomad Stadium
1x Kor Haven

SB
3x Choke
3x Tormod's Crypt
2x Karmic Justice
2x Suppression Field
2x Sphere of Law
1x Trinisphere
1x Runed Halo
1x Aura of Silence

Rd. 1 - Armageddon Stax
This was kind of a nightmare. We both went turn 2 crucible in the first game. I got an elspeth and he failed to draw any creatures other than magus of the tabernacle which a well timed geddon removed. Game 2 an early baneslayer pumped by his elspeth crushed me. Game 3 I had him locked out of the game but time was called and there was no way I could win in 5 turns as I had no threats on board.
0-0-1 (1-1-1 played games)

Rd. 2 - G/W Aggro
My opponent had a game 1 loss due to incorrect deck submission. I was lucky because he had md gaddock teeg and pridemages. He easily won the 2nd game. I had about the best draws I could to win the 3rd game with a Chalice on 2 and 3 before he could cast anything.
1-0-1 (2-2-1 Games)

Rd. 3 - W/B Life gain combo
My opponents combo was to win with Polluted Bond and Sanguine Bond. I won both games 1 and 2 with multiple geddons never letting him get to 5 mana.
2-0-1 (4-2-1 Games)

Rd. 4 - Reanimator
Game 1 my opponent countered 2 chalice of the voids before getting a leviathon in play. Game 2 I mulligan to 5 and sit on a plains and diamond but never draw another land to cast anything useful before Iona shuts me out.
2-1-1 (4-4-1 Games)

Rd 5 - Elves
Game 1 Chalice at 1 and humility shut his deck down and elspeth wins the game. Game 2 I get a chalice at 1 and 3 and sit at 1 life playing defensively till I make everything indestructible and can win out.
3-1-1 (6-4-1 Games)

Rd 6 - Aggro Loam
My opponent scooped.
4-1-1 (6-4-1 Games)

I make the top 8 as the 7th seed thanks to my Rd. 6 opponent.

Rd. 7 - Aggro Loam
Game 1 I manage a chalice on 2 early and humility to slow his deck down. Smokestax clears his board and we move to game 2. Game 2 I take a lot of pain to Ancient Tomb and his 1/1 goyf and crusher slowly beat me down till he can burn me out. Game 3 I have what would be a decent hand had he not started the game with Leyline of the Void in play. I can't recover from his land destruction and a very large countryside crusher beats me in.
4-2-1 (6-6-1 Games)

Comments on card choices:
I rarely played ghostly quarter and never cast moat. There were a few cases where I would have liked to cast moat but didn't have the WW for it such as against Aggro Loam. I have never once used Nomad Stadium and will likely drop it for another land.

oRen
04-05-2010, 10:53 AM
Hey,

i am a big fan of this deck and i started to develop my own build.
first of all i think the black splash for cranial extraction is what the deck needs.
the second thing is that the green splash is auto included for me as canopies are really needed.

here is the list i ended up with:

// Lands
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [EX] City of Traitors
3 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [R] Savannah
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [US] Plains
2 [R] Scrubland
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory

// Spells
4 [TE] Humility
4 [LG] Moat
4 [LOR] Oblivion Ring
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [US] Smokestack
3 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [P3] Ravages of War
3 [DS] Trinisphere
2 [PT] Armageddon

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 [TE] Choke
SB: 4 [CHK] Cranial Extraction
SB: 3 [MM] Ivory Mask

I am quite unsure regarding the explosives but i found them much more useful than powder keg.
The second thing i am unsure about are the 1 off lands - Tabernacle, Kor Haven, Normad Stadium and Dust Bowl.

my thoughts:
Tabernacle: win more as the deck rapes aggro decks and ichorid easily | non mana producing land = bad | geddon dependent
Kor Haven: same as tabernacle
Normad Stadium: reaching 7 cards in the grave is not that easy in the early game and so the stadium does not help a lot especially versus burn/sligh
Dust Bowl: too slow / crucible dependent

I tryed to reach a very constant build - any thoughts on my build are welcome.

regards.

sdematt
04-05-2010, 11:40 PM
I've had some decent results with my own take on Moat-Stax, aka Rich-Man Stax.

2 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
6 Plains
2 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Savannah

3 Moat
4 Humility
4 Smokestack
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Armageddon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
3 Trinisphere
3 Elspeth, Knight Errant
3 Ghostly Prison

Sideboard (old):
1 Trinisphere
2 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Sphere of Law
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pithing Needle
3 Choke



I entered a local tournament and did pretty well.

1st Round: Goblins, 2-1
Had no idea what the guy was playing until he fumbled his cards, revealing a Matron. I was pretty happy. I can't remember what I played, but I destroyed him within 25 minutes :D
Second game, I just didn't hit any land at all, and it was pretty brutal. He didn't get a good hand either, and he eventually got there after a long game.
Game three started almost at time, so he slow-rolled it. I managed to get him to 1 life on Turn 5. One more turn...

Status: 0-0-1

2nd Round: Zoo, 2-0
Playing against an old adversary, I promptly landed a turn 3 Humility followed by Turn 4 Moat. I didn't hit Elspeth, so I Ghost Quarter and Smokestacked him out.
Game two, I played first turn Trinisphere followed by second turn Humility, followed by third turn ghostly prison. I landed Sphere of Law sometime later, and eventually got there.

Status: 1-0-1

3rd Round: Painter/Goyf/CounterTop, 2-1
Another friend of mine. I destroyed him game one, laying down a very quick Humility with Trinisphere bait. I got there with Factory in 20 minutes.
Game two, I got mana hosed like you wouldn't believe. He got there with Goyf and Predator.
Game three, it was a second turn Choke with Daze mana open, followed by multiple Ghostly Prisons, and two Moats. Chalice on 1 on the first turn took out his needle on Elspeth (it was in-hand, he told me after). I got there with a single flying soldier token.

Status: 2-0-1

4th Round: NO Progenitus
Like all my rounds, first game is a breeze. Second game, he hits Countertop and lays a three on top and counters Humility. I don't hit anything relevant for 10 turns. He gets there with Rhox War Monk and Goyf. Third game, I proceed to destroy him.

Status: 3-0-1

Didn't do too badly, received 6 packs. I would have won the entire tournament if it weren't for Goblins man stalling it out on game three. No matter.

Things I would change:

I need something against Needle on Elspeth, because that really hurts. I guess I can get around needle if I Smokestack the hell out of the guy, but still, I don't have an unlimited roundtime (this is why there's Grip in the board). I was also thinking Baneslayers in the board to replace Humility if it's in a totally useless matchup, or if the clock is ticking down and I need a win. I never felt like I needed the extra Trinisphere, but the Tabernacle seems useful (I never saw it when I boarded it in), and fits the theme of Rich Man Stax :P

-Matt

Skeggi
04-06-2010, 03:21 AM
I need something against Needle on Elspeth, because that really hurts.
Oblivion Ring? Aura of Silence?

You could run Oblivion Ring instead of your Prisons, as your Pirsons don't protect Elspeth and O Ring also helps with surviving until you land a Moat. After Moat, Ghostly Prison is redundant anyway.

You should probably also check out this guy:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=103590&d=1270008131

He's probably good as a 1-of. Run 3 Elspeths and 1 Gideon. Should be pretty sweet. He can stall your opponent from killing you (or Elspeth), has spot removal and is a threat. Pretty nice.

SteakKnife
04-07-2010, 12:10 AM
Hey,

first of all i think the black splash for cranial extraction is what the deck needs.

// Lands
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [EX] City of Traitors
3 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [R] Savannah
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [US] Plains
2 [R] Scrubland
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory

// Spells
4 [TE] Humility
4 [LG] Moat
4 [LOR] Oblivion Ring
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [US] Smokestack
3 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [P3] Ravages of War
3 [DS] Trinisphere
2 [PT] Armageddon

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 [TE] Choke
SB: 4 [CHK] Cranial Extraction
SB: 3 [MM] Ivory Mask

I am quite unsure regarding the explosives but i found them much more useful than powder keg.
The second thing i am unsure about are the 1 off lands - Tabernacle, Kor Haven, Normad Stadium and Dust Bowl.

my thoughts:
Tabernacle: win more as the deck rapes aggro decks and ichorid easily | non mana producing land = bad | geddon dependent
Kor Haven: same as tabernacle
Normad Stadium: reaching 7 cards in the grave is not that easy in the early game and so the stadium does not help a lot especially versus burn/sligh
Dust Bowl: too slow / crucible dependent

I tryed to reach a very constant build - any thoughts on my build are welcome.

regards.

If I had Tabernacle I would run it main as it is a dominating card if played early...
Kor haven has saved me numerous times.
Nomad Stadium is being cut as I think in the last 4 tourneys I have used it maybe in one match...
How is cranial extraction? I am thinking of testing leyline of the void as it can come into play immediately, works well against loam and reanimator, is another permanent.



Oblivion Ring? Aura of Silence?

You could run Oblivion Ring instead of your Prisons, as your Pirsons don't protect Elspeth and O Ring also helps with surviving until you land a Moat. After Moat, Ghostly Prison is redundant anyway.

GIDEON

He's probably good as a 1-of. Run 3 Elspeths and 1 Gideon. Should be pretty sweet. He can stall your opponent from killing you (or Elspeth), has spot removal and is a threat. Pretty nice.

I agree with running ORing over Prisons if you are running multiple moats.
I will also try Gideon but I am not expecting him to be great... I'll probably replace an oring with him.

oRen
04-07-2010, 08:58 AM
If I had Tabernacle I would run it main as it is a dominating card if played early...
Kor haven has saved me numerous times.
Nomad Stadium is being cut as I think in the last 4 tourneys I have used it maybe in one match...
How is cranial extraction? I am thinking of testing leyline of the void as it can come into play immediately, works well against loam and reanimator, is another permanent.

I really dislike the Tabernacle as it never wins alone - not even vs ichorid if they run FKZ. It slows you for 1 turn because you miss your manadrop and it does not slow your enemy necessarily. I tested it and to me the card is not worth the money.
I never tested Kor haven or even Maze of ith (ppl in my area thought it to be better than kor haven) because i never felt it necessary - i rather want to drop a 2nd turn moat or humility than have an active turn 2 kor haven.

The point is you never want to come to a point where you really need 1-offs and there it does not matter which 1 off it is.
Because of this i can not agree with this statement.


He's probably good as a 1-of. Run 3 Elspeths and 1 Gideon. Should be pretty sweet. He can stall your opponent from killing you (or Elspeth), has spot removal and is a threat. Pretty nice.

Even if its true overall the card still costs 3WW and does not help to win under Moat.
Maybe playable as 2 or 3 off SB card in aggro heavy metas.

regarding cranial extraction - the card is THE BOMB. it wrecks engines like loam, you instantly rape combo (mostly straight ANT - burning wish is not our friend here) and even if it is just taking out eg. the Krosan Grips in random Matchups you always trade very well. The card expects the player to have average knowledge of the format but you really get rewarded for this.

regarding Leyline of the Void - i would not run them when not running enough black sources as the main problems of the card stay and on the other side i think it is not worth splashing that much black for leylines.


have a nice day :laugh:

SteakKnife
04-07-2010, 03:44 PM
regarding cranial extraction - the card is THE BOMB. it wrecks engines like loam, you instantly rape combo (mostly straight ANT - burning wish is not our friend here) and even if it is just taking out eg. the Krosan Grips in random Matchups you always trade very well. The card expects the player to have average knowledge of the format but you really get rewarded for this.

regarding Leyline of the Void - i would not run them when not running enough black sources as the main problems of the card stay and on the other side i think it is not worth splashing that much black for leylines.


I find it a contradiction that you will run Cranial Extraction but not LotV because LotV would force you to run more black sources. You can play LotV for free if in your opening hand which you cannot do with CE, and it I ran the same mana sources you do I can't see why you would have an argument there.

oRen
04-08-2010, 10:00 AM
I find it a contradiction that you will run Cranial Extraction but not LotV because LotV would force you to run more black sources. You can play LotV for free if in your opening hand which you cannot do with CE, and it I ran the same mana sources you do I can't see why you would have an argument there.

i regarded your last list which got the following manabase when i posted.



4x Mox Diamond
1x Ghost Quarter
3x Wasteland
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Savannah
3x Mishra's Factory
3x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
3x Flagstones of Trokair
4x Plains
1x Nomad Stadium
1x Kor Haven


i understood - correct me if i am wrong there - that you do not run a single black source beside the moxes and want to play leylines as graveyardhate. i was never fine with playing leylines without enough access to black mana. regarding my last list i think 1 more black source would be needed to run them properly (if you really want to play them).

my personal experience with leylines are that even if you can put them into play for free they are overall freaking bad. the card forces you to take mulligans to have it on the opening hand which is pretty bad considering the general weaknesses of the deck.

i would never run leylines as i think they are really unnecessary.

regards

Skeggi
04-08-2010, 12:21 PM
Leyline of the Void does 3 things:

1: take up 4 slots. If you run Leyline of the Void, you run 4. You have to make alot of room in an already cramped deck.

2: enable the Helm of Obedience combo. But without a tutor for artifacts, it could take a while before this combo hits the table, or once again, you will have to spend more slots than you would like on this card. However, if you can find a way to make it work, it can be a wonderful win-condition.

3: deal with graveyard based decks like Reanimate and Dredge. But hey, these are already good match-ups for Dutch Stax.

All-in-all I don't think we have enouigh need for Leyline of the Void to make room for four copies. Whether you can afford it mana-wise or not is irrelevant: the card simply does too little to be effective in Dutch Stax.

SteakKnife
04-08-2010, 08:49 PM
Leyline of the Void does 3 things:

1: take up 4 slots. If you run Leyline of the Void, you run 4. You have to make alot of room in an already cramped deck.

2: enable the Helm of Obedience combo. But without a tutor for artifacts, it could take a while before this combo hits the table, or once again, you will have to spend more slots than you would like on this card. However, if you can find a way to make it work, it can be a wonderful win-condition.

3: deal with graveyard based decks like Reanimate and Dredge. But hey, these are already good match-ups for Dutch Stax.

All-in-all I don't think we have enouigh need for Leyline of the Void to make room for four copies. Whether you can afford it mana-wise or not is irrelevant: the card simply does too little to be effective in Dutch Stax.

1: I agree that I would be running 4 in the side.

2: I will have to try this out. Not exactly sure how I would make it work as I think I would need either 4 of each or something like 2/2 and 4(?) enlightened tutors... So basically as long as Helm is tapped for X>=1 then they will be milled due to the replacement effect of never putting a card in the graveyard? Am I right?

3: While I dont' find dredge or reanimate the most difficult of matches, I seem to lose to aggro loam a decent amount and LotV would be good in all 3 matches. It is also good in the mirror.

sdematt
04-09-2010, 12:17 AM
I find that running the Prisons nicely adds redundant pieces, because that's what Stax is all about in a way: I just have so many lock pieces, it's hard to tough it out. I'll most definitely give the Rings a try, if not in the main, than in the board. It seems so obvious, I didn't even see it. Thanks very much for the suggestion!

The build I'm running, 4 Humility and 3 Moat with 3 Elspeth, so far has been fabulous. The deck is a blast to play, but you have to play quick if you're opponent is slow-rolling the game :rolleyes:

-Matt

Skeggi
04-09-2010, 04:05 AM
While I dont' find dredge or reanimate the most difficult of matches, I seem to lose to aggro loam a decent amount and LotV would be good in all 3 matches. It is also good in the mirror.
There is a 2-step plan agains Aggro Loam:

Step 1: drop Chalice@2.

Step 2: win.

Good luck! :smile:

SteakKnife
04-09-2010, 06:22 AM
There is a 2-step plan agains Aggro Loam:

Step 1: drop Chalice@2.

Step 2: win.

Good luck! :smile:

Oh so that is what I have been doing wrong!

I'll have to do some testing of the matchup for sideboarding but I think I brought in Suppression Field, Tormod's Crypt, and Karmic Justice ans Sphere of Law... I'm pretty sure I sided out Chalice and some other stuff like o-ring. Sphere of Law shuts Seismic Assault down, Suppression Field slows that deck down a ton, and Tormod's Crypt also slows it down.

Maybe I should be siding out Trinispheres, 2 geddons, and 2 Smokestacks as they aren't as useful. Let's me bring in 3 Crypts, 2 Suppression Field, and 2 Sphere of Law.

Any suggestions?

Skeggi
04-09-2010, 06:44 AM
If you can shut down the Loam engine, Smokestack instantly becomes useful again. I would go for Sphere of Law and no Suppression Fields or vice versa. Both seems redundant. Seeing that Chalice@2 and Suppression Field doesn't seem like the best tech in the world, I'd go for Sphere of Law.

Chalice@2 is very effective against Aggro Loam, because it also shuts down Burning Wish, which denies them to look for answers. However, you must watch out for maindeck Maelstrom Pulses. I'm not sure what to do about those.

sdematt
04-27-2010, 03:06 AM
I'm wondering how testing with Gideon has gone, and if it's happened at all. I just cracked one out of a pack, and just wondering if it's decent enough to keep for this deck.

-Matt

SteakKnife
04-28-2010, 06:30 PM
I have not played legacy in a few weeks and thus haven't tested Gideon. If you cracked one then you probably have all you need to test him out.

I am thinking of testing keening stone. My guess is that it could take 3-4 activations to win and doesn't need a second card to win like helm does nor can it be removed easily like creatures.

oRen
05-01-2010, 08:29 AM
I have not played legacy in a few weeks and thus haven't tested Gideon. If you cracked one then you probably have all you need to test him out.

I am thinking of testing keening stone. My guess is that it could take 3-4 activations to win and doesn't need a second card to win like helm does nor can it be removed easily like creatures.

1. i dislike gideon. i do not see any reason to run him in my build. i would rather run wrath or tabernacle in aggro heavy metas. if you already run those and still got problems - which should not be the case - he could be a nice addition.

2. first i thought ... "wtf - do we play workshops, moxen, vault, crypt and academy ?"
it is hateable with tormods crypt, relic and so on and because it is not T1 it is fucking SLOW.
seems freaking bad to me - overall.


i started playing plains #5 over mishra #4 in my build as i got hardly owned by blood moon several of times.
i do not know if this is good as i lost to Dragon Stompy and Imperial Painter which are not that common decks.


keep up the good work on this deck as it is so underrated.

regards from sunny germany

kinda
05-02-2010, 07:31 PM
I've been trying to make dueling gounds work in something for a while...how about this?

4 moat
4 humility
4 dueling gounds
4 trinisphere
4 chalice of the void
4 mox diamond
4 crucible of worlds
3 smokestack
3 elspeth
2 jace, the mind sculptor

1 kor haven
3 maze of ith
4 tundra
4 savannah
2 flagstone of trokair
4 plains
2 wasteland
4 ancient tomb

sdematt
05-02-2010, 09:41 PM
I think it was discussed further back that dueling grounds was a bit subpar for the deck. Looking at your list, you seem a bit heaving on four drops, and you're playing Stax in 3 colours. This seems like a major no-no to me. I love Jace as much as the next guy, but I don't think his place is in 3 colours. White with blue splash? Possibly, but even then, he's double-blue to cast. This deck is always hungry for the double white, nevermind double blue. The problem with running "that many" duals is that it makes you susceptible to non-basic land hate. You only play two wastelands yourself, which isn't a terribly strong land-denial package, so I could see you getting screwed over by, say, random wasteland - sinkhole action.

My two cents. Obviously, give it a whirl on MWS, but I'm thinking try to stick to 2 colours, preferably one primary with a small splash of the next for either sideboarding, or mainboard tech.

-Matt

oRen
05-03-2010, 04:11 PM
Looking at your list, you seem a bit heaving on four drops, and you're playing Stax in 3 colours. This seems like a major no-no to me. I love Jace as much as the next guy, but I don't think his place is in 3 colours. White with blue splash? Possibly, but even then, he's double-blue to cast. This deck is always hungry for the double white, nevermind double blue. The problem with running "that many" duals is that it makes you susceptible to non-basic land hate. You only play two wastelands yourself, which isn't a terribly strong land-denial package, so I could see you getting screwed over by, say, random wasteland - sinkhole action.
i do not think it is a problem to play 3 colors. the point is that anything what costs 2 of some mana which is not white is unplayable. when you splash the deck for cards which costs 1 of some other mana (winning cards as boil, cranial extraction and whatever) everything is fine because you do not need to play that many duals which wreak the mana base.
regarding the last point i got to add that moon and b2b even suck when not needing double blue.

btw i need 1 savanna and 2 scrublands to play 3 color and i am quite pleased.

with all that said the decklist seems overall really bad to me as it does not improve established decklists in any way.

Skeggi
05-04-2010, 02:20 AM
2 jace, the mind sculptor
While I think Jace would be awesome if you could get him to work, UU is just a rediculous requirement.

oRen
05-05-2010, 07:19 PM
hey.

i tested very much and it resulted in cutting the smokestacks. they were nearly always win more and boarded out in game 2 + 3. they are to slow to be a useful answer to iona.
i do not think the are needed in this build as the disruption package is still very heavy.
i also cuted the savannah and the sb chokes because geddons do the job as well most of times and +1 plains is quite good to get a more solid list.

i had problems with people taking out the 3 elspeths via sacrament ( and jesters cap :really: ). this is why i considered playing a fourth. just a side note.

the list i am planning to run at bom 4. as i got two byes i just hope to dodge red. like this i can save the slots used on sphere of law or ivory mask. 1 open maindeck slot which could be used on 5th geddon, 4th elspeth, dust bowl, 4th wasteland, 7th plains 4th tomb or 4th trinisphere ...

i am quite unsure and open to any thoughts. here is the list.

// Lands
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [EX] City of Traitors
3 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [R] Scrubland
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
6 [R] Plains (1)

// Spells
4 [TE] Humility
4 [LG] Moat
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [P3] Ravages of War
3 [DS] Trinisphere
2 [PT] Armageddon
4 [LRW] Oblivion Ring

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 4 [CHK] Cranial Extraction
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [UL] Defense Grid
SB: 3 [MR] Damping Matrix

thanks a lot.

Skeggi
05-06-2010, 03:41 AM
With Smokestack gone, you can probably cut down the Crucibles to 2-3. Perhaps add some extra winconditions instead.

sdematt
05-06-2010, 03:21 PM
I would say play 4 Factories then, more chance of drawing one. Also, I've been playing boarded Baneslayer Angels to great results. I usually board her in game 3 when the clock is running low, and their removal is all boarded out. I just take out some of the humilities. Personally, I do find myself boarding out Smokestack, but at times, it really is winning me games. Have you thought of a one-of Kabir Crossroads? I've seen some people running it just to sac to Stack and gain some life. A possible option for you.

I'm wondering about the boarded grave-hate. Do you really need it? This deck has been very good to me so far against dredge. I mean, I've lost a game against it before, but usually you can get down Moat or Humility before you're dead. Ghostly prison (if you're running it) hoses them severely as well. Also, if you've got humility, their Terastodon or Iona is basically useless.

oRen
05-06-2010, 04:30 PM
I'm wondering about the boarded grave-hate. Do you really need it? This deck has been very good to me so far against dredge

yeah ... ichorid is quite easy to win most of the times but reanimator is not.
i lost hard to turn 1 entomb or study + daze or force in hand to counter my disruption followed by a turn 2 reanimate spell several times. the deck is quite famous and popular since it won gp madrid so i think the crypts are alright.

i am testing the forth elspeth now which turned out quiet good. the factories turned out to be too humility dependant.

sdematt
05-08-2010, 12:09 AM
I played against reanimator today with regular Stax and the matchup seemed to go either way. I either got the Chalice/Trinisphere down, and eventually locked them out, or they'd get Iona out and name white, where I proceeded to die. I haven't tried the Dutch Stax matchup, but, it shouldn't be terrible. The only thing I'm missing in comparison with them is Magus of the Tabernacle, but in its place I've got the Humilities, so we'll see. But, I have to say, Reanimator is a powerful deck, but literally folds to the usual combo hate, as a combo deck should :D

-Matt

Antonius
05-08-2010, 02:51 PM
I do believe that Ensnaring Bridge or Noetic Scales are still the best tech vs reanimator.

Also, has anyone tried Playing Gideon Jurra yet? I've heard people claim that he's better than Elspeth--which I seriously doubt. however, I do believe that Gideon 1 and 2 could be better than elspeth 3 and 4. He seems hilariously good with humility. lol, +2: midgets on the other side try to hurt Gideon.

kinda
05-08-2010, 04:01 PM
How about this list? You use maze/kor haven to lock with dueling grounds or humility+dueling grounds, you win with scapeshift protected by abeyance (which can be used against combo too), and have lighting helix/o-ring to deal with problems and crucible to help you hit land drops/draw engine with canopy (remember you don't have to crack fetches, they can be sac'd to scapeshift). Tarmo comes in g2 against combo to improve your clock and for abeyance against aggro once they side out their removal...and then your standard gy/combo hate.

4 humility
4 dueling gounds
4 chalice of the void
4 mox diamond
3 crucible of worlds
4 scapeshift
4 lightning helix
3 oblivion ring
4 abeyance

1 kor haven
4 maze of ith
1 savannah
2 valakut, the molten pinnacle
4 taiga
4 wooded foothills
4 plateau
3 mountain
2 horizon canopy
1 the tabernacle at pendrell vale

SB:
4 tarmogoyf
4 mindbreak trap
2 rule of law
3 faerie macabre
2 tormod's crypt

bowvamp
05-09-2010, 01:22 PM
How important is chalice of the void to this deck? 'Cause I have like 3 armageddon lying around, wastelands, and flagstones. If I cut chalice that lets me run 4 Tithe ("card draw") and 4 Swords to Plowshares (really powerful). That also cuts down on the price of the deck significantly since what I've already got is:
4 Wasteland
X Plains (pretty close to infinite, in this case 6)
4 Tithe
4 StP
3 Armageddon
3 Flagstones
4 Crucible of Worlds

Then I could go with something like this assuming that those are filled.
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Kor Haven
1 Nomad Stadium
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Mox Diamond
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
2 Kitchen Finks (seems good, idk)
4 Smokestack
3 Trinisphere

The advantage of doing it this way for me is two fold.
1) I already have like half the deck.
2) Tithe can "draw" two plains, and Swords is just Swords, it's rediculous.
Disadvantage I can see:
1) Not having complete dominance over the 1cc slot

JamSpot
05-09-2010, 02:43 PM
@bowvamp - Dutch Stax = Rich Man Stax because of the inclusion of Moat. Your cost cutting version really doesn't cut it as far as I'm concerned. You are probably wanting to be posting in this thread ---> http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?6044

oRen
05-09-2010, 04:12 PM
How important is chalice of the void to this deck?

some german tried to cut chalice for divining top and enlightened tutor to gain access to manipulation and tutoring but this sucks hard as chalice is one of the keycards.
chalice is too good vs any kind of combo and is good against most blue based decks as they lose access to top deck manipulation eg ponder, top, brainstorm and mana acceleration eg hierach.
there are more examples where calice is good out there ... like ichorid or survival ...

the 2 decklists posted above ridicule the actual deck concept.
@kinda ... if you want something special maybe focus on the plan to run jace who seems really strong. maybe you can teach everyone that it is possible to support double blue but stop replacing moat with dueling grounds.
@bowvamp ... your decklist is close to usual armageddon stax but has nothing to do with dutch stax.

and like jam said - play moats or gtfo of this thread. this version of the deck is based on playing moats and cutting them makes the deck something really different which seems like no improvement to me.

something else ... someone knows proper boarding techniques for this deck or at least stax in general ?

kinda
06-18-2010, 01:27 AM
So now that grim's unbanned...

oRen
06-18-2010, 12:02 PM
So now that grim's unbanned...

so what ... ?
no impact on this deck at all.

banning on mystical seems favorable for this deck.

edit: cause of the banning i changed my deck a bit.

cranial extraction does not work well against tes - it did work well against straight ant.
instead of leylines which require running 2 scrublands i play crypts.
i started running red for ajani and boil.
ivory mask does much more than sphere of law in that slot.

i thought about adding 3 nether void to the board and 1 scrubland to the main because they seem to be quite nice against combo, burn and control.

here is my new list:

// Lands
6 [GUR] Plains
2 [U] Plateau
3 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
3 [TE] Wasteland
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [EX] City of Traitors

// Spells
3 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
4 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
1 [PT] Armageddon
2 [P3] Ravages of War
4 [LG] Moat
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [TE] Humility
2 [ALA] Ajani Vengeant
3 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 3 [TE] Boil
SB: 3 [MM] Ivory Mask
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [RAV] Suppression Field


i played this with some minor changes in the board (+ 1 boil +1 nomad stadium -1 field -1 mask [stadium against mask only because i got only 2 masks on that day]) 5-1 on a 33 people event.

round 1 ubw painter control: 1-0
g1: win - 1 mishra wins alone. strange game.
g2: draw - he makes many mistakes. i drew much land.

he could have won g1+2.

round 2 merfolk 1-2
g1: win - i get moat and humility in play. he found no bounce - i win after drawing many useless cards.
g2: lose - he gets early creatures and got like 3 daze and 1 spell pierce 1 force. i resolve one moat - he wins with 1 flying coralhelm commander.
g3: lose - he wins with 2 standstills and many counters.

he played incredibly bad. countering the wrong stuff, trying to stifle my ancient tomb, ...
he got mulligans to 6 in game 2 and 3 getting amazing hands.
sad.

round 3 rbg goblins 2-1
g1: lose - he wins the dice and wins through turn 1 lackey and winning on his turn 3 or 4 with many goblins. i could not get anything on the field on time.
g2: win - with only colorless mana i get turn 1 chalice1 with tomb turn 2 crucible with mishra and turn 3 wasteland - he scoops.
g3: win - triple oring for the start and later i resolved moat and humility and won.

round 4 rb goblins 2-1
g1: win - i play turn 3 or 4 moat and turn 5 or 6 humility - he scoops.
g2: lose - he wins because of the turn 1 lackey. many goblins and i am not fast enough - being on low life having moat and humility on my hand and none in play facing many goblins including scg.
g3: win - mull 5 to 1 vial on his side - humility and moat on my side.

round 5 canadian 2-0
g1: win - to much to counter for him.
g2: win - he gets no pressure on his side. i resolved 2 mox diamond and 1 crucible and many stuff got countered. i play boil in response to his ponder - he scoops.

very good hands in both games.

round 6 merfolk 2-1
g1: lose - he wins the dice and starts fast.
g2+3: win - i resolve moat and humility quite easy and win.

nice day and i finished 2nd.

oRen
07-06-2010, 07:33 AM
Leyline of Sanctity

if in your opening hand ...
you cant be target by spells or abilities your opponents control.

much better than ivory mask or sphere of law even if you got to play 4 in your board.

sdematt
07-06-2010, 11:33 AM
Yeah, I definitely saw it. It's 2WW, so even if you have to hardcast, it's nothing major. I'll definitely give it a shot in the board. It blanks more strategies than just Sphere, it takes away Burn, discard, Wheel of Sun and Moon, and few other things. I'll definitely look into it :D

-MAtt

SteakKnife
07-26-2010, 10:24 AM
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 3 [TE] Boil
SB: 3 [MM] Ivory Mask
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [RAV] Suppression Field


i played this with some minor changes in the board (+ 1 boil +1 nomad stadium -1 field -1 mask [stadium against mask only because i got only 2 masks on that day]) 5-1 on a 33 people event.



Congrats on the 2nd place!

I'm curious how you side against zoo and merfolk?

Also I love AV but is he really better than smokestack?

I am planning on putting 3-4x Leyline of Sanctity in my board... Seems too good not to side.

oRen
07-27-2010, 04:37 PM
I'm curious how you side against zoo and merfolk?

Also I love AV but is he really better than smokestack?

I am planning on putting 3-4x Leyline of Sanctity in my board... Seems too good not to side.

Leyline is great against burn, discard and combo which is for real too good to not be in the board. At the very least it is a great improvement of Ivory Mask. I run 4.

My new board.
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 1 [PT] Armageddon
SB: 1 [P3] Ravages of War
SB: 4 [RAV] Suppression Field
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity

I droped the Boils because they were only good against real tempo decks (Team America, Canadian, ...).
Most of the really controlish blue decks run too many non island lands which makes it very hard to get advantage out of the Boils.

Ajani is a great card. Fixes a lot of what was missing.
+1 colorscrew, buy time against creatures
-2 Spotremoval, Lifegain
-7 one sided geddon

I always thought the stacks to be redundant because the opponent got creatures unable to do anything which he can sacc into the stack. They were really slowish in my tests and the impact on the game was not as heavy as it may be in other builds. I do only run 3 geddons main which makes them even worse.

I got no real boarding plans but what i am doing turned out quite well in the past.
Merfolk:
If no coralhelm commander: -1 geddon +1 sphere
If coralhelm commander: -3 geddon -2 random +1 sphere +4 field
Zoo:
Depending on how much burn and what creatures and if you are on the play or draw ...
Different strategies could be used here ...
On the play - boarding in the forth sphere and the 2 geddons to try to never let the opponent find into the game
On the draw - bringing in all leylines and maybe the fields
I quite unsure here as zoo is really underplayed in Germany.

Some stuff i am worried about ...
- enchantress matchup ... very unfavorable ... any thoughts how to improve this without splashing a 3rd color ?
- merfolk matchup is hard but still possible - i hope no one ever realizes how good wash out is ...
- my decklist runs red only for the 2 Ajanis main and i am unsure wheater to run 1 or 2 plateaus - i am tending to run only 1



best wishes!

sdematt
07-27-2010, 07:00 PM
@ Oren

I think the key to winning the Enchantress matchup is nuking all the lands as soon as possible, and laying a Tabernacle piece (either Magus if we're still running it, or the actual Tabernacle. If you're running neither, then don't worry). But, Enchantress requires a ton of mana to buildup to where they want to go. Plus, you get rid of their Wild Growths and such. They're a slow deck, just like you, but you're not usually attacking anyway, so I'd say slow-roll the game with Ghost Quarter if you can. I think Humility is the next nail in the coffin, as if they try to go the Angel route, you just shut that down.

Post board, you would obviously bring in Leyline of Sanctity (for the Words of War) and the Suppression field (again, WoW, Sterling Grove, etc.). I don't see this matchup as being a walk in the park, as you really have to hit the right cards pre-board, but post board this should be favourable. I'd also say keep the Humilities in after board.

-Matt

oRen
07-29-2010, 06:07 PM
@ Oren

I think the key to winning the Enchantress matchup is nuking all the lands as soon as possible, and laying a Tabernacle piece (either Magus if we're still running it, or the actual Tabernacle. If you're running neither, then don't worry). But, Enchantress requires a ton of mana to buildup to where they want to go. Plus, you get rid of their Wild Growths and such. They're a slow deck, just like you, but you're not usually attacking anyway, so I'd say slow-roll the game with Ghost Quarter if you can. I think Humility is the next nail in the coffin, as if they try to go the Angel route, you just shut that down.

Post board, you would obviously bring in Leyline of Sanctity (for the Words of War) and the Suppression field (again, WoW, Sterling Grove, etc.). I don't see this matchup as being a walk in the park, as you really have to hit the right cards pre-board, but post board this should be favourable. I'd also say keep the Humilities in after board.

-Matt

well ... my opinion how to win this matchup is an early (turn 2/3) elspeth + sphere/geddon/chalice/humility.

the main problems are:
- they can easily play through sphere
- they can easily play through chalice via replenish
- they got annoying maindeck stuff like sterling grove oblivion ring and silver bullets like karmic justice, wheel of sun and moon or confiment

slow rolling and waiting is no good attempt overall imho. you got to play as aggressive as possible.

for real this was by far the hardest matchup i ever faced as the deck can play around all disruption engines.

i'd like to hear your opinions:

- when only playing red for 2 MD ajanis -> 1 or 2 plateaus ?
- any thoughts on how to improve my current sideboard ?
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 1 [PT] Armageddon
SB: 1 [P3] Ravages of War
SB: 4 [RAV] Suppression Field
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity

- best sideboard cards against merfolk which are also useful in other matchups

cheers

SteakKnife
07-29-2010, 06:14 PM
I'll consider boarding cleansing meditation or tempest of light(tempest is better because of the 2W vs 1WW and instant) but I don't think enchantress is a common enough matchup to warrant more than 2 slots... I used to board aura of silence as it is good against combo as well...

I'm more concerned with bluematchups. I generally side choke as I have a 3/1 g.prison/moat in my current build* and the mana denial is far more important to me but I am debating if choke should be defense grid again...

Turn one defense grid either pulls a counter or shuts counter out.

Choke can cripple blue decks but still let's them resolve their important spells if I can't geddon or smokestack them out.

Is allowing our game plan > crippling/delaying theirs?

I'm considering 2x Baneslayer instead of the Aura of silence as when I tested geddon stax the baneslayers were amazing against anything not able to cast swords. Also having a fast clock for game 3 is very relevant...

My board right now sits at
3x Leyline
3x T. Crypt
3x Choke
1x 3Sphere
3x S. Field
2x Aura of Silence


I did test ajani vengeant and found he was too easily killed at least in my build. Plus I didn't like splashing another color. Instead I have used a gideon and found gideon to be ok.

I'm also debating my mainboard right now. I need to chose two of the following: 4th ORing, 25th Land(4th waste,4th tomb, 2nd horizon, ?), Gideon, something else?

Something else could be the crystal ball but i've never tested it so I am weary of playing it in the GP Friday without test. The geddon stax forum seemed to think it was positive.



*Note: I play 3/1 prison/moat because I bought tabernacle instead of more moats. Mistake? Maybe. But tabernacle is easier to get in play, fits with mana denial plan that i like and is harder to kill. When moat hits the board it is generally always awesome where tabernacle is less powerful late if I am behind. I seem to do well with this split so I'm leaving it for now.

oRen
08-01-2010, 10:26 PM
I'm more concerned with bluematchups. I generally side choke as I have a 3/1 g.prison/moat in my current build* and the mana denial is far more important to me but I am debating if choke should be defense grid again...


Is allowing our game plan > crippling/delaying theirs?


I did test ajani vengeant and found he was too easily killed at least in my build. Plus I didn't like splashing another color. Instead I have used a gideon and found gideon to be ok.

*Note: I play 3/1 prison/moat because I bought tabernacle instead of more moats. Mistake? Maybe. But tabernacle is easier to get in play, fits with mana denial plan that i like and is harder to kill. When moat hits the board it is generally always awesome where tabernacle is less powerful late if I am behind. I seem to do well with this split so I'm leaving it for now.


I'm also debating my mainboard right now. I need to chose two of the following: 4th ORing, 25th Land(4th waste,4th tomb, 2nd horizon, ?), Gideon, something else?

1. i like grid more because it is easy to drop turn 1 and costs only colorless mana. cripples their game plan as they need always 3 open mana to counter ...
chalice along with grid is the only negative point ...
2. match up dependent - combo is different than control obviously - hard to tell any general points ...
3. i don't wonder that ajani didn't work well if you are playing that split. 1 moat doesn't properly protect your walkers ...
4. i'd go for 4th ring + 2nd canopy ...

regards

SteakKnife
08-05-2010, 05:24 PM
I'm not going to write a full report as I don't think it would be beneficial for the forum, but I'll mention my side choices, matchups and running gideon main.

My sideboard was as follows:
4x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Suppression Field
3x Choke
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Trinisphere

I started 1-3 but as my friends were undefeated I played it out instead of spend more money on side events. I ended 5-4...

I played against Zoo, Belcher, Affinity, Rifter, and Burn.

Against Zoo: I went 2-1
Humility/moat obviously dominated here and tabernacle/armageddon wiped the board in the two matches I won.
The match I lost easily could have gone the other way but I drew 6 lands in a row while recurring factory to defend when they had a pridemage and a 3/4 goyf in play, no cards and no lands. They eventually drew another land and pridemage killed my chalice(1) to let him burn me out.
On the draw I sided -4 Chalice -3 Smokestack for +3 Suppression Field +3 Leyline +1 Trinisphere/Leyline depending on what I thought would be better at the time. Suppression field is obviously amazing and Leyline keeps my Elspeth alive and meant I didn't get burned out without them using grip or pridemage on it.

Against Belcher: 2-0
I went 4-1 in games. The game I lost was postboard with Leyline in my starting hand. They made 8 goblins turn one and won.

Affinity: 0-2
I did not know this matchup. They won both game 1's as they overwhelmed and I didn't quite grasp all the capabilities of the deck. I punted both game twos. Having never played against this deck in any format and never looking at a decklist for it made it quite unknown to me. I didn't expect them to krosan grip me post board either.

Rifter: 0-1
Game 1 they had turn two rift and turn 3 crucible.... He played an Elspeth to kill my Elspeth... They then dropped scepter/chant and it was game over. Game 2 I had chalice and suppression field followed by maybe a crucible. They had turn 3 and 4 aura of silence and turn 5 blood moon to sledge hammer that nail in. This was the only match that I don't think I could have won with slightly better draws or better knowledge of my opponents deck.

Burn:
I won game one with chalice/trinisphere. Lost game two with a Leyline in play cause I was stuck on two mana and they beat me down with a factory and a lavamancer. Took them like 8 attacks while I stared at moat and elspeth in hand. I won game 3 with a chalice/trinisphere/leyline/moat hand.

I loved the 3Sphere, Suppression Fields and Leylines. The Leyline is way too good and will probably never leave my sideboard. Obviously if I had played more Tier 1 decks (by not losing early matches) I would be able to say how the rest was.

Gideon worked out pretty well btw. He was a free Holy Day everyturn against zoo while letting me kill things with Mishra's factorys. He also was a pretty good beater. I would probably run him again.

Note: Not once did I have a situation where my prisons would have been better as moat. Prison came out earlier and made them chose spells or attacks. Would I run more Moats over prison if I had them? Yes.

oRen
08-06-2010, 11:40 AM
that lose against affinity is sad as this matchup is really good.
that lose against rifter sucks hard as this deck is kind of unplayable nowadays (even if the matchup against stax is not that bad).

the interaction between moat and humility is the reason to run this deck so never ever run less than 4 of each if you got them.
imho humility + prison is just far worse than humility + moat.
the main point here is that prison does not protect your walkers.
something not irrelevant is that you can get beat down easily with humility + prison in play by 1 creature + jitte/sword.


how did the tabernacle work out ? i am thinking of buying 1 or 2 for the board ... mostly against merfolk ...

cheers

Mr. Headshot
08-06-2010, 01:17 PM
Hi All

My first posting... Here you are...

I playtested the list with moat's en humility's. I found the armageddon not that good, because of the lack of tabernacle-effects. (Magus, Tabernacle, ghostly prison) as in armageddon-stax-builds. Therefore I im suggesting to drop the 3 armageddon's and use 3 Blood Moon instead. By consequence, you can lower the amount of crucible's, change wasteland in basics and add some crystall ball's. I really like the crystal ball's. Has anyone had any experience with them? What you do think of idyllic Tutor as tutor the find moat , humility or oblivian ring?

For reference: this is the list i'm currently testing:

4x Plateau
1x Windswepth Heath
4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traitors
2x Mishra's Factory
1x Horizon Canopy
10x Plains

4x Mox Diamond

3x Blood Moon
4x Chalice
3x Trinisphere
3x Crystal Ball
3x Oblivian Ring
4x Moat
4x Humility
2x Crucible of Worlds (I'm thinking of dropping another one...)
2x Idyllic Tutor

2x Elspeth
1x Ajani Vengeant

What do you think?

I just bought the final moat, so I haven't had de oppornity to test on a tournament...

SteakKnife
08-06-2010, 10:06 PM
@Mr. Headshot

Obviously without testing I can't definitively say so I'lll keep my comments to a minimum.

I really like blood moon but I think a well timed geddon just dominates other control decks and I wouldn't cut them, at least not all of them. Blood moon vs geddon, I chose geddon but I'd like to hear about how your results go.

I do find heath an odd card as you have no forest to search for... Did you mean Arid Mesa?

Please post your results on Crystal Ball. I'm very interested in how well that card works.

@OREN
Next big tournament I play (in a week) I'll be sure to read into the affinity decklist... I got killed by Disciple of the Vault in 2/4 games. Had I drawn tabernacle in any of the 4 games I think I would have had a much better shot if not won the games. Knowing the casting costs of the key cards in that deck would have been nice as well.

Tabernacle was great every creature match. As I expected thopters to be big there I definitely wanted tabernacle. It won against zoo every time I played it. I imagine it would be huge against merfolk but I haven't played that matchup since getting tabernacle.

Mr. Headshot
08-07-2010, 05:24 AM
@ Steakknife

I'm still not completely convinced of dropping geddon, but blood moon was something I wanted to test. I'll keep this tread updated when I play a tournament with the blood moon-version.

Concerning Heath -> in fact every white-fetch land can be good in order to fetch for plateau. I don't play basic Mountains. It's plateau number 5.

Concerning Ball -> I can't think of the times that I put the extra lands, trinisphere's, crucible's, blood moon's on the botom of my library. Further advance, if you have 2 of them on the table, you search 4 deep for 2 mana and mostly we have some spare mana. This card certainly improves card quality for 1 mana a turn. If you have room in your deck, I advice to add 2-3 copies...

SteakKnife
08-07-2010, 10:05 AM
@ Steakknife

I'm still not completely convinced of dropping geddon, but blood moon was something I wanted to test. I'll keep this tread updated when I play a tournament with the blood moon-version.

Concerning Heath -> in fact every white-fetch land can be good in order to fetch for plateau. I don't play basic Mountains. It's plateau number 5.

Concerning Ball -> I can't think of the times that I put the extra lands, trinisphere's, crucible's, blood moon's on the botom of my library. Further advance, if you have 2 of them on the table, you search 4 deep for 2 mana and mostly we have some spare mana. This card certainly improves card quality for 1 mana a turn. If you have room in your deck, I advice to add 2-3 copies...

I just realized the lack of thought my heath comment contained. I'll try to do better in the future.

I do hope you post some test results as I've been trying to think of another direction to go with stacks and this one is interesting.

I'll test 2-3 CrB in my build if I can figure out what to cut.

Hook76
09-28-2010, 10:06 PM
Has anyone tested/played against Fish or Madness Survival enough that they could give me a sense of how these matchups look?

I had been running Armageddon Stax for a while but most of the players near me are using one of those two decks and Merfolk is really bad for my old version. Before I drop the $$$ for 4 Moats, I wanted to see if this would be a better contender in that sort of metagame.

I'm leaning towards a version with a couple of Elspeths, no creatures and Green splash so I can play Choke (and also so I can use my Beta Savannahs ;-)). Probably will be pretty close to most of the other builds here otherwise.

Also, any suggestions for what is strong/not so strong in those matchups would be awesome. With the high frequency of them, I'm fine with even doing a bit of pre-sideboarding (legally of course) to tip the matchup if that helps. Probably not going to go as far as running flat out hoser cards in the main that would be dead for a lot of matchups but stuff like more or less copies of Armageddon or Trinisphere in maindeck, etc. would be stuff I would consider.

sdematt
09-29-2010, 10:11 AM
I haven't tried the matchup, but in theory (I hate saying in theory without testing, but...) it should be a decent matchup. It's a creature based aggro control matchup (in a way, very much like Tempo Thresh) except they have a better engine and faster creatures, but the same counter-power (kind of).

I think the key here is if you splash Horizon Canopy and a Savannah or two, bringing Choke out of the board should be devastating. As well, Suppression Field, Trinisphere, Chalice at 2, Wastelock, and Armageddon are all VERY good against them, as are Moat and Humility. I think SOME versions are running Wonder, but not all. Basically, land a Humility to end the game. Their Trygon Predators can't get through, and they have no removal for it. I think Ghostly Prison would be good in this matchup, actually (your choice to play it or not. I've been playing 4 Moat, 4 Humility, 3 Prison).

But, I'm glad discussion is bad on for this deck. As well, I've started to run Karmic Justice in the board against Landstill with Pernicious Deed. I hear it's good. As well, Leyline of Sanctity has been the absolute nuts for me. No way I'm doing less than 4. I'd play 8 if I could :D

-Matt

Hook76
09-29-2010, 02:31 PM
A question for some of the more experienced pilots of this deck...

I'm looking at some sideboard options for this and notice a lot of folks running Suppression Field but am curious as to what matchups this is good in and why anyone would run that and not Damping Matrix instead? The way I see it, Matrix is superior on a couple of levels:

1. Plays well with COTV at 2
2. Totally shuts down Vial, whereas Field just makes them pay 2 for it, which may still be a good deal at times.
3. Doesn't mess up your planeswalker like Suppression Field does
4. Doesn't mess with your manlands like Supression Field does
5. Shuts off Belcher for good

In fact I think this is another card like T-Sphere that is totally asymetrical for us as we suffer none from it but almost every other deck loses a lot of activated abilities.

That said, I haven't tested this a lot. If I knew exactly why folks have been running Field, maybe I'm missing something. Wasn't sure where these are needed the most and wanted to be sure I didn't overlook something.

Dark Ritual
09-29-2010, 04:17 PM
Damping matrix shuts off your moxen. That is why it is subpar; and suppression field is at its best against fetchlands something damping matrix doesn't touch. And suppression field has a slightly higher chance of landing turn 1 because of plains + moxen whereas damping matrix needs a double land and a moxen.

Belcher is as good as shut off with suppression field on board because it requires 5 mana to fire. The key to the belcher MU is landing trinisphere to absolutely seal the game or multiple chalices hell even one chalice can severely screw up that deck depending on their hand and what you set chalice at. We can't do anything if they go off turn 1 on the play with belcher but if they go goblin tokens we can maybe pull a win out if we land moat.

stasis
09-29-2010, 04:33 PM
A question for some of the more experienced pilots of this deck...

I'm looking at some sideboard options for this and notice a lot of folks running Suppression Field but am curious as to what matchups this is good in and why anyone would run that and not Damping Matrix instead? The way I see it, Matrix is superior on a couple of levels:

1. Plays well with COTV at 2
2. Totally shuts down Vial, whereas Field just makes them pay 2 for it, which may still be a good deal at times.
3. Doesn't mess up your planeswalker like Suppression Field does
4. Doesn't mess with your manlands like Supression Field does
5. Shuts off Belcher for good

In fact I think this is another card like T-Sphere that is totally asymetrical for us as we suffer none from it but almost every other deck loses a lot of activated abilities.

That said, I haven't tested this a lot. If I knew exactly why folks have been running Field, maybe I'm missing something. Wasn't sure where these are needed the most and wanted to be sure I didn't overlook something.

First reasons to my head:
It does not slow down fetchlands, Survival of the fittest or other enchantments for that matter

sdematt
09-29-2010, 08:34 PM
Suppression field is there to hit other planeswalkers, fetchlands, Qasali pridemage, Manlands, etc. You DO take a hit playing this, but you have to understand against Zoo/Fetch heavy decks, along with Sterling Grove, Pernicious Deed, Jace TMS, it is absolutely brutal. You'll have mana to play around it, they won't. If you land this Turn 1 against Zoo (which is easier than a first turn Trinisphere) Zoo cries. It has to get 2 non-fetchlands to crack a Fetch, and they usually play 9-12 Fetches. Total cost to get a Qasali Pridemage? 2 for each fetch, 2 for mana cost, 3 to crack Pridemage. Ouch.

-Matt

Hook76
09-30-2010, 09:54 AM
@Sdematt - Thanks, this is helpful context. The Pridemage would be even more shut down versus Damping Matrix but the rest makes a lot of sense. I can definitely see that stopping fetches can be useful. I'm primarily playing Zoo while I try to find a deck that I like more that is viable and I know from experience that more often than not, not being able to use fetches would present a pretty big problem for me. I had been thinking of the fact that Pridemage could still be activated eventually as a good reason to run Matrix instead but now that I think about it more, by the time they get mana to use him under the Field I should have Humility out anyways...

sdematt
09-30-2010, 11:34 AM
This is Sdematt, not Skeggi. I figure you just quickly read it and saw the "S." :D

Exactly. By the time he should be doing relevant things, you've hopefully got other stuff out. Ex. Trinisphere, Crucible, Smokestack, Elspeth, or hopefully Humility.

-Matt

oRen
10-02-2010, 09:21 AM
Hey,

i thought of splashing black again.
Nether Void seems really incredible to me.
Leyline of the Void worked out really fine when i tested those the last time because sphere and chalice are really good backup for the Leyline against Ichorid or Loam based decks.
i thought karakas might be a nice out against iona or teeg even if i got to admit that i dislike it being quite random.

my idea ...

// Lands
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [EX] City of Traitors
3 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [R] Scrubland
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory
5-6 [R] Plains
0-1 [LE] Karakas

// Spells
4 [TE] Humility
4 [LG] Moat
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
2 [P3] Ravages of War
1 [PT] Armageddon

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 [PT] Armageddon
SB: 3 - 4 [LE] Nether Void
SB: 1 - 2 [LE] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 0 - 1 [LE] Karakas

SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity
or
SB: 3 - 4 [RAV] Suppression Field

???

i got to go for now but i will write a bit more later ...

JamSpot
10-02-2010, 10:48 AM
The Dutch Stax list is really tight but omitting Smokestack just doesn't feel right to me. I'd drop a CoW, Elspeth and ORing to make space for 3x Smokestack.

sdematt
10-02-2010, 01:48 PM
I LOVE Nether Void, I'm not sure it's right in the Humility Stax build. In a way, I'd rather see it in an Armageddon stax build. It makes everything cost at least 6! :D

I would definitely say give it a try, though.

As to the Smokestack argument, I'd say try it out before hating on Oren too hard. Most of the time, especially against aggro, they've got more permanents than you do, which makes Smokestack not quite as good. Perhaps in his build he doesn't need it, or his meta makes in unfavourable for him.

Personally, I like Smokestack. In my build I only play three. Hell, even in my Geddon Stax build I play 3. Many times it's just not AS good as it COULD be, due to the permanent factor. If it was a Braids type ability that came online immediately (the added clause, "When it comes into play, you may choose to put a Counter on Smokestack"), I'd be more apt to play it (hell, it'd be WAY better...).

@ Oren

I'd say cut the two Geddon out of the Board, I've never needed more than 3 Geddons in Dutch Stax, ever. I'd also makes you have 4 Leyline of Sanctity AND 4 Suppression field, they're too good not to have. If you check out my posts near the end of the Armageddon Stax Thread, I talk about how useful it is to shut off combo turn 0, and how Suppression field ruins the day of Zoo/Pridemage/Jace/Deed/Fetchlands when you don't have other lockpieces out.

I'd say you need at least 2 Stacks though; It allows you to, in certain situations, get rid of your own permanents (ex. Getting rid of a Chalice on two, so you can lay a Suppression field or something) but can also be very one sided for you. Consider it.

Also, the black splash seems good, but slightly unnecessary (you should be able to take Dredge to town. You play 4 Moats and 4 Humility :P), but I see where it could be very useful. I fear Nether Void is in danger of being cool, and not as useful as say, Choke, in the board. I run a green Splash for Choke, and gives you an extra up against Blue based decks that are going to be quite prevalent (Ex. Merfolk, Landstill, etc.). I do like the Tabernacle there, and works especially well with Choke against Merfolk, but if you side in 2 Tabernacles (remember, they're Legendary), what land are you taking out? If you take out land, you're losing mana production, so you'd have to cut permanents.

My time's up, so let me know what you think.

-Matt

oRen
10-07-2010, 09:38 AM
The Dutch Stax list is really tight but omitting Smokestack just doesn't feel right to me. I'd drop a CoW, Elspeth and ORing to make space for 3x Smokestack.

never cut the crucibles... orings work out fine against anything and i would not recommand to run less than 4 ...
remember that you need elspeth to win and that many other decks also run elspeth.
as said i dislike smokestacks in this build.


I LOVE Nether Void, I'm not sure it's right in the Humility Stax build. In a way, I'd rather see it in an Armageddon stax build. It makes everything cost at least 6! :D

I'd say cut the two Geddon out of the Board, I've never needed more than 3 Geddons in Dutch Stax, ever. I'd also makes you have 4 Leyline of Sanctity AND 4 Suppression field, they're too good not to have. If you check out my posts near the end of the Armageddon Stax Thread, I talk about how useful it is to shut off combo turn 0, and how Suppression field ruins the day of Zoo/Pridemage/Jace/Deed/Fetchlands when you don't have other lockpieces out.

I'd say you need at least 2 Stacks though; It allows you to, in certain situations, get rid of your own permanents (ex. Getting rid of a Chalice on two, so you can lay a Suppression field or something) but can also be very one sided for you. Consider it.

Also, the black splash seems good, but slightly unnecessary (you should be able to take Dredge to town. You play 4 Moats and 4 Humility :P), but I see where it could be very useful. I fear Nether Void is in danger of being cool, and not as useful as say, Choke, in the board. I run a green Splash for Choke, and gives you an extra up against Blue based decks that are going to be quite prevalent (Ex. Merfolk, Landstill, etc.). I do like the Tabernacle there, and works especially well with Choke against Merfolk, but if you side in 2 Tabernacles (remember, they're Legendary), what land are you taking out? If you take out land, you're losing mana production, so you'd have to cut permanents.

Ichorid is harder than you may think. Fast hands with t2 moat/humility are needed to win.
Nether void seems fine against combo/enchantress/control but the main point is to play at the right moment to finish the game.
Trinisphere and nether void seem to work good together as nether void triggers.

Choke always sucked when i played it because the impact is not that heavy.
To stop the mentioned decks you need more than 1 choke because they got many non island lands and it is easy to play around.

i still dislike smokestacks. i played quite much without them and never missed them.

i am quite busy atm and not playing much but when i get more active again i will check it out and i am sure that the results will be nice.

i think the board will be like this ...
3x ghostly prison or 2x Tabernacle
1-2x armageddon
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Nether Void
4x Leyline of Sanctity or 4x Suppression Field

i will write down my results within 1-2 months.

sdematt
10-07-2010, 09:40 AM
Don't be too long Oren, It's almost like you and I are some of the few people playing this :P

-Matt

oRen
11-13-2010, 03:08 AM
hmm ... i am back from the dead.
i tooled around with deck quite a bit within.
i ended up droping black again as the black leylines require to play 2 scrublands (to have some kind of chance to cast them if not on opening hand) and because the voids were not that good.

i considered many cards like firespout, blood moon, aura of silence ... but this nearly mono white list turned out really good.
the prisons are really nice as they are good against ichorid, merfolk and goblins. those 3 turned out quite hard as they got discard/mana denial/counters and and a really fast beatdown plan.
26 lands instead of 25 ... having enough plains when running many non basic lands is useful.
i am still unsure about the karakas but having one more out against teeg and iona seems to be worth the 1 off.

// Lands
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [EX] City of Traitors
3 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
3 [TE] Wasteland
1 [R] Plateau
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory
6 [R] Plains
1 [LE] Karakas

// Spells
4 [TE] Humility
4 [LG] Moat
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [ALA] Ajani Vengeant
3 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
2 [P3] Ravages of War
1 [PT] Armageddon

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 3 [RAV] Suppression Field
SB: 3 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [PT] Armageddon
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

enchantress matchup still sucks ...
i will play on sunday and see how it works out ...

so long ...

Mr. Headshot
11-14-2010, 10:11 AM
Welcome back Oren

I like your list. It looks difficult to hit the one plateau, if you have ajani in your hand. You have no ways to discard the ajani or draw/filter additional carts. Futhermore, do you use your wasteland before turn 3-4? (before you played moat or humility?) I found me always keeping my wasteland until after i cast moat/humility. (to get humility/moat down as fast as possible) And at that point the wasteland becomes less effectif because your opponent has already fetched to basic land. That why i opted for blood moon. I read that you have tried the blood moon, wasn't it that good?

To be honest, when i played the blood moon version on tournament and it wasn't great. I played only one wincondition (3x elspeth, no mischra's factory) and 2 times i lost a (decisive) game due to be unable to find a wincondition. That why i want to increase the number of winconditions. Does somebody have a good idea? I was thinking of the new red planewalker (Koth of the Hammer)? But he has no defensive abilities... Any suggestions as good wincondition for my list

I ran something like this:

4 Chalice of the void
3 Trinisphere
3 Blood moon
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Crystal ball
2 Wrath of god

2 Idyllic Tutor

4 Moat
4 Humility

3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Mox Diamond

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
5 White fetch
3 Plateau
10 Plains

Please let me know how it went today.

oRen
11-16-2010, 01:52 PM
Hey,

the flagstones do "fetch" the single plateau. You can waste them yourself if really needed or simply play a second with one in play. With the moxen and the plateau you have got 5 red mana sources for 2 red spells. Seems fine to me - I never had any problems.
I was regarding sideboard cards when i spoke about Blood Moon, Firespout and Aura of Silence as the main deck for Wr is pretty fixed for me - sorry that i did not tell it that exactly.

Blood Moon main seems not necessary as the cards range seems limited.
You need Wastes, Mishras, Flagstones and Geddons .
I would absolutely recommend to run 4 Elspeths if not running Ajani Vengeant.

I played 4:3 on a 72 men tournament due failing in the first round ...
I wrote the following last night using my notes.
I do not want to invest more time to write it more precise and in better English as the result is not worth it.
If there are any questions feel free to ask ... maybe someone can gain some knowledge out of it ...

i played the following sb: 4 leyline, 3 suppression field, 3 crypt, 2 peacekeeper, 1 elspeth, 1 trinisphere, 1 geddon ...

round 1 - CB/NO Bant – dice = lose (he 3 me 1 with a 20 sided dice ...)

game 1
- Mulligan 6 for him
- He plays top turn 1
- He forces my turn 1 trinisphere than goes for goyf #1 in his 2nd turn
- He dazes my turn 2 humility than goes for goyf #2 in his 3rd turn
- I resolve elspeth on my turn 3 and got a mishra to buy some time but I draw no further moats or humility and get beat down fast

game 2
- Mulligan 6 for him
- I resolve a fast peacekeeper but get much damage from 1 tomb
- I resolve one elspeth and generate tokens ...
- I miss one activation and I die with an elspeth with 8 tokens on it
- I got 2 moats, 1 Peacekeeper and chalice 1 in play / he got 1 rafiq 2 hierach 1 predator in play
- He grips the chalice and swords the peacekeeper and so i die from 1 attack of the predator

without missing that activation I would have won ... sucky me ...


round 2 - GW Survival - dice = lose

game 1
- turn 2 elspeth followed by moat and humility let him concede

game 2
- Mulligan 6 for him
- With double humility in play I get beat down by 3 creatures ...

game 3
- Mulligan 6 for him
- no notes on that game

i underestimated how much and how fast this deck can generate mana.
amazing deck played by a good player.
chalice 1 or trinisphere turn 1 is required to win.
taxing elements like field (or field) are very situational.


round 3 - Urb Dreadstill - dice = lose

game 1
- i resolve chalice 1 and humility
- i get beaten down by 2 mishras factory

game 2
- I got 3 moats on my hand
- the first one gets countered and after the second is resolved he scoops

game 3
- I resolve chalice 1 and crucible
- he got 2 mishras and I got 1 - he scoops

matchup seems very good and my opponent was not that good ...


round 4 - Enchantress - dice = win

game 1
- Mulligan 4 for him = I got a chance to win ...
- t2 ajani + t3 trinisphere let him concede fast


game 2
- he goes for turn 2 karmic justice - I play trinisphere on my second turn
- i nuke his lands on my 3rd or 4th turn losing my trinisphere
- he got some stuff in play but I waste his lonely sanctum
- I beat him down with one mishra and he did not find a new land fast enough

still a very bad matchup. geddon / ajani are good obviously ...


round 5 - Faerie Stalker - dice = win

game 1
- I go for turn 1 trinisphere
- he wastes my tomb on his turn 1
- I stay screwed and get owned some when

game 2
- I remember that i got screwed again by wasteland on city and losing to his fast beat down

flying creatures suck. jitte sucks.
I think this might be the worst matchup among tempo decks.


round 6 - Thopter - dice = ?

game 1

- I get no damage and beat him down with double mishra
- much interaction (but i do not remember what exactly) but he can not establish his combo on the board

game 2

- i play a fast elspeth and create 1 token - on his turn he plays needle on elspeth
- he plays thopther foundry with sword in play but he could not create tokens after playing the foundry
- i got an Oring for the foundry on my turn

- there was one point when i got double field in play and play geddon
- he can come back to game even with double field in play because i drew on crap after that geddon

- I got an ancient tomb in play and play mox diamond with no lands on my hand for not having to discard - he forces
- ... oh yeah ... remember that single soldier token? ... with the help of that token and his fetchlands he is on 3 life
- I got like 14 damage from ancient tombs and he steals my token with shackles and beats me to 5
- I got 1 Mox, 1 Plains, 1 Tomb, 1 City and draw Ajani
- I play Ajani but can not use it because of the double field
- The round after I played Ajani it is over

1 token made like 15-17 damage ...
he forces my mox which I only played for not having to discard ...
amazing game

overall pretty good matchup.


round 7 - Rbg Aggro Loam - dice = win

game 1:

- turn 1 chalice 0 + trinisphere
- turn 2 chalice 2
- turn 3 geddon and he scoops

game 2:

- turn 3 chalice 3 followed by chalice 2 on turn 4
- turn 5 Oring on his already resolved confident let him concede

more games like this please ...
matchup seems to be quite good.


so long ...

sdematt
11-17-2010, 09:02 AM
Stalling out can happen, but it's unfortunate it happened to you. Have you tried fitting in 2 Crystal Ball?

-Matt

oRen
11-17-2010, 10:16 AM
Have you tried fitting in 2 Crystal Ball?

i did right when they came out.
the problem was that they cost you 1 turn (as they got no impact on the board) in the early game.
when you reach mid-/lategame you "should" win without those.

they were not that bad as they avoid drawing into more and more shit but as i was always short on slots i continued playing without those.

Mr. Headshot
11-23-2010, 03:20 AM
Oren, thank you for your match-up analysis. And I'm going to include ajani. (my wincon = 3 elspeth + 1 ajani). I hope it's enough.

I forgot about the fetching-possibility of the flagstones. So yes, you probably hit the plateau easily. No need for extra plateaus

Crystall Ball seems to me also a good card-filter. I run 3 copies for the moment, but 1-2 will be fine also. Perhaps cut 1 ajani?

Idyllic Tutor I wouldn't recommed in an-armageddon-build. It is to slow.

Blood moon: it's a must counter in the early game for 3 or more colour decks. If i analyse your match-ups, it would be good against:
- CB/NO Bant
- Urb Dreadstill
- Faerie Stalker (if its the 3-colour version = UBr = most popular version)
- Thopter (if its the 3-colour version)
- Rbg Aggro Loam

Futhermore Blood moon reduces the negativ effects of Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors.

Now im going to stop about talking of blood moon... I promise.

-Mr Headshot

oRen
11-24-2010, 11:09 AM
Oren, thank you for your match-up analysis. And I'm going to include ajani. (my wincon = 3 elspeth + 1 ajani). I hope it's enough.

I forgot about the fetching-possibility of the flagstones. So yes, you probably hit the plateau easily. No need for extra plateaus

Crystall Ball seems to me also a good card-filter. I run 3 copies for the moment, but 1-2 will be fine also. Perhaps cut 1 ajani?

Idyllic Tutor I wouldn't recommed in an-armageddon-build. It is to slow.

Blood moon: it's a must counter in the early game for 3 or more colour decks. If i analyse your match-ups, it would be good against:
- CB/NO Bant
- Urb Dreadstill
- Faerie Stalker (if its the 3-colour version = UBr = most popular version)
- Thopter (if its the 3-colour version)
- Rbg Aggro Loam

Futhermore Blood moon reduces the negativ effects of Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors.

Now im going to stop about talking of blood moon... I promise.



regarding blood moon ...
i would consider it a sideboard card - at maximum.
the problem is that good players can dodge the negative effect by fetching on basics and by playing smart.
i was testing dragon stompy and was surprised how useless moon effects are in many situations.
regarding the decks you mentioned i got to pretend that it is nearly useless against dreadstill because it only shuts down mishras + wastelands + fetchlands (they can play it them self in the board) and thopther because they run an incredible amount of basics (6-8).
regarding bant ... turn 1 hierach (which is some kind of really common play) wrecks your plan ...
blood moon is the nuts against stuff like lands and decks that run no/1 basic (eg. canadian, team amerika, ugb tres hold).
regarding aggro loam ... 1 mox diamond and your plan sucks ...

not being able to use factories and wastelands yourself sucks in that build. humility + factory interact so nice.

1 ajani seems random ... I would say 2+ or none. considering ajani as a win condition is wrong ... he needs like 20 turns to win alone. he is a good part of the lock, spotremoval and able to regain life.

crystal ball is fine ... run 2-3 if they fit into your build ...

Edit: This was my last post here. As no one even tries to evolve this deck.
Good luck to anyone who tries to run this inconsistent pile of cards ...

Nr42
12-10-2010, 06:34 AM
Edit: This was my last post here. As no one even tries to evolve this deck.
Good luck to anyone who tries to run this inconsistent pile of cards ...

Damn you oRen, now you made me sign up for this forum to :P

I have been a lurker in this thread for some years now , it is one of the tabs I do not close, and I have always found your comments on the deck interesting and worth considering. I will test Ajani instead of Smokestack as soon as I have time.

The deck list I have been using:

4 Humility
3 Smokestack
3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Moat
2 Armageddon
4 Mox Diamond
1 Kor Haven
1 Plateau
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 City of Traitors
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
9 Plains

Sideboard:
2 Boil
3 Powder Keg
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Armageddon
2 Wrath of God
4 Pithing Needle
1 Crucible of Worlds

As of your suggestion I have now changed 2 plains to Horizon Canopy's and played some test games and it seams really good for the deck.

The last tournament I played in I went 5-3 making a lot of mistakes that had the judges swarming all over me (I have to try and remember the City of Traitors trigger next time). All in all a pretty good tournament I think, in my previous ones I have gone 3-3.

Like you say the deck feels a bit inconsistent, but I still like the way it plays and the overall feel of it.

I have to ask how you are managing without Smokestack? One of my favorite things in this deck is playing Armageddon followed by Smokestack.

Hope you will keep posting here and that the discussion continues.

/V

guedax
12-12-2010, 04:39 PM
sorry by advance for my bad english
i am a new white stax player and i try something like a dutch stax with esnaring bridge and no moat in order to be more speed with its 3CC and no white mana needed
but my 2 kills with elspeth and mishra's are difficult with it so i think i must use smokestack to shut it down when needed
it give something like this

7 plains
4 ancien tomb
3 city of traitors
3 wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Flagstones of Trokair

3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Mox Diamond
3 Smokestack
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 humility
3 trinisphere
4 calice of the void
3 Armageddon
3 Oblivion Ring

SB
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Pithing Needle
4 Suppression Field
4 Tormod's Crypt


i have tested the deck with Ghostly Prison and magus of the tabernacle and no moat and no esnaring bridge and it sucks against merfolks
that's why i try this

sdematt
12-12-2010, 06:55 PM
Your English is good, don't worry :smile:

I think Ensnaring Bridge is bad because you can't attack with creatures if they get too big, like your factory with Elspeth. It means you keep your hand big so you can attack, it means opponent's creatures can attack you too. Moat is better because most of the time, you can attack and your opponent cannot, that's why I think Moat is very good, and Ensnaring Bridge is only okay.

-Matt

Skeggi
12-15-2010, 04:44 AM
I've been toying with the deck again on MWS. This is what I'm playing now:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
3 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
3 [DS] Blinkmoth Nexus
3 [TE] Wasteland
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [EX] City of Traitors
9 [A] Plains (1)

// Spells
2 [US] Smokestack
2 [M11] Crystal Ball
2 [B] Armageddon
2 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [TE] Humility
4 [LG] Moat
4 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
4 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [ROE] Gideon Jura

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [UD] Powder Keg
SB: 4 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [CHK] Ghostly Prison


The sideboard is more or less thrown together. I like the maindeck, except I don't like Gideon. However, I do want another win condition. Problem is that Gideon doesn't win through Moat and Humility like Elspeth does. Any of you know of a 1 card wincondition that would be a nice addition to Elspeth? Otherwise I suppose a third Crystal Ball might be good, I love that card. It's awesome :smile:

jandax
12-15-2010, 05:12 AM
While Gideon as a one of is sort of cold to Moat/Humility, Ajani Goldmane pumps your Soldier Tokens as well, making them infi-bigger than the opponent's 1/1s. Costs 1 mana less too.

practical joke
12-15-2010, 05:28 AM
Any of you know of a 1 card wincondition that would be a nice addition to Elspeth? Otherwise I suppose a third Crystal Ball might be good, I love that card. It's awesome :smile:

That's why you are going to splash blue right? For Jace 2.0 and brainstorm.

Options:

- Decree of Justice (can build angels if you really have to)
- Cursed scroll (slow, but steady)
- Sacred mesa (costs some mana, but might work)
- Luminarch Ascension (works pretty well behind moats and such)

There should be many more, but as a 1-card win-con. I think luminarch should work quite well with your current list. (and paying 3 for luminarch ascension and waiting 4 turns, shouldn't be a problem as well, since elspeth ain't killing much faster.)

jandax
12-15-2010, 05:55 AM
Ohh Luminarch Ascension, didn't think of that. It's probably the thing you're looking for

lorddotm
12-15-2010, 06:16 AM
Ohh Luminarch Ascension, didn't think of that. It's probably the thing you're looking for


It doesn't win under Moat+Humility.

Skeggi
12-15-2010, 06:22 AM
That's why you are going to splash blue right? For Jace 2.0 and brainstorm.

Options:

- Decree of Justice (can build angels if you really have to)
- Cursed scroll (slow, but steady)
- Sacred mesa (costs some mana, but might work)
- Luminarch Ascension (works pretty well behind moats and such)

There should be many more, but as a 1-card win-con. I think luminarch should work quite well with your current list. (and paying 3 for luminarch ascension and waiting 4 turns, shouldn't be a problem as well, since elspeth ain't killing much faster.)

Jace would actually rock in this deck. I'm not sure if double blue is something I can go for. I would rather explore the mono white options before resorting to splashing for Jace. All the other options you mentioned either don't go with Chalice@1 or don't go with Humility+Moat.

Edit: Currently testing -4 Plains, +4 Tundra, -2 Crystal Ball, -1 Gideon Jura, +3 Jace, The Mind Sculptor. So far so good...

Rune
12-15-2010, 06:38 AM
There was a blue Stax list that finished 3rd in the ~300 player event in Paris. The list looks pretty solid.


Mainboard:
Others (32):
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Compulsive Research
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Mox Diamond
4 Propaganda
3 Ratchet Bomb
4 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere

Lands (28):
1 Academy Ruins
3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Flooded Strand
5 Island
4 Maze of Ith
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Polluted Delta
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Wasteland


Sideboard:
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
3 Hibernation
2 In the Eye of Chaos
4 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt

Skeggi
12-15-2010, 06:55 AM
The only thing I like from that list is the Glen Elendra Archmage in the sideboard. But only if you can afford to board the Humilities out ofcourse. I prefer not being blue dependant. We don't need Tabernacle as long as we're playing Moat and Humility. And I prefer Moat and Humility over Propaganda/Ghostly Prison because it gives better protection to you and your Planeswalkers. 4 Maze of Ith is pretty nice though.

FieryBalrog
12-17-2010, 11:45 PM
I've been toying with the deck again on MWS. This is what I'm playing now:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
3 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
3 [DS] Blinkmoth Nexus
3 [TE] Wasteland
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [EX] City of Traitors
9 [A] Plains (1)

// Spells
2 [US] Smokestack
2 [M11] Crystal Ball
2 [B] Armageddon
2 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [TE] Humility
4 [LG] Moat
4 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
4 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [ROE] Gideon Jura

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [UD] Powder Keg
SB: 4 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [CHK] Ghostly Prison


The sideboard is more or less thrown together. I like the maindeck, except I don't like Gideon. However, I do want another win condition. Problem is that Gideon doesn't win through Moat and Humility like Elspeth does. Any of you know of a 1 card wincondition that would be a nice addition to Elspeth? Otherwise I suppose a third Crystal Ball might be good, I love that card. It's awesome :smile:

Why Trinisphere as a 2-of? It's a card you either want in your opening hand or you don't really want to run it. Also don't understand only 6 tomb/city.

Skeggi
12-18-2010, 11:26 AM
The 3/3 Tomb/City split is the combination I used when I was in a Wasteland, Magus of the Moon and even Back to Basics heavy meta where I needed more basic land. The excessive ammount of double white in the original deck made me go for that split. When I went toying with the deck again, I just took my old manabase (more info about this decision in the opening post of this thread).

About Trinisphere: it's an important part of the Crucible/Smokestack/Trinisphere hardlock. But as a 4-of I would only side them in agains Zoo and Combo, and against Zoo you might not even really need it. Most decks are able to play around Trinisphere and it's an aweful topdeck. It's also redundant in multiples. I used to cut it from the maindeck completely, but that's just as silly as cutting Smokestack. Sometimes you just need them, so a 2/2 split seems fine with me (also explained in the opening post... did you read it at all?).

oRen
12-25-2010, 04:46 PM
nice to see you over here again.


We don't need Tabernacle as long as we're playing Moat and Humility.
+1


The 3/3 Tomb/City split is the combination I used when I was in a Wasteland, Magus of the Moon and even Back to Basics heavy meta where I needed more basic land. The excessive ammount of double white in the original deck made me go for that split. When I went toying with the deck again, I just took my old manabase (more info about this decision in the opening post of this thread).
playing this split for long. works fine. explanation is very reasonable.


About Trinisphere: it's an important part of the Crucible/Smokestack/Trinisphere hardlock. But as a 4-of I would only side them in agains Zoo and Combo, and against Zoo you might not even really need it. Most decks are able to play around Trinisphere and it's an aweful topdeck. It's also redundant in multiples. I used to cut it from the maindeck completely, but that's just as silly as cutting Smokestack. Sometimes you just need them, so a 2/2 split seems fine with me (also explained in the opening post... did you read it at all?).
i think cutting the smokestacks is something different that cutting the trinispheres. imo trinispheres are essential - smokestacks are not.
i always thought the smokestacks to be too slowish and without direct impact on the board which made me cut them.
they might get better again depending on how the meta develops after the survival banning.

regarding your last list:
3 crucibles - seriously ? any reason beside leaking space for not running 4 ?
3 blinkmoth nexus - the card seems really really good. anything to say about those from your side ?

i tested a bit and well nexus is bad imho. the mana which is required to pump the nexus is really annoying and the beatdown takes twice as long.
i will stick to my playset mishra's factories!


my current list:
// Lands
3 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
3 [TE] Wasteland
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [B] Scrubland
6 [B] Plains (1)

// Spells
2 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
4 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [PT] Armageddon
1 [P3] Ravages of War
4 [LG] Moat
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [TE] Humility
4 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [M11] Crystal Ball

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 2 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
SB: 4 [CHK] Cranial Extraction
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt

happy new year everyone :>

guedax
01-01-2011, 12:02 PM
happy new year everyone

i use 2 idyllic tutor MD and try to make a SB toolbox

Leyline of Sanctity for burn, discard and Jace MU, etc

Sphere of Law for goblins and burn

Runed Halo which is polyvalent

perhaps Suppression Field and aura of silence

can you help me
against merfolks, affinity, etc
every idea is welcome
i search something which is game breaking

JCLe
01-01-2011, 06:52 PM
happy new year everyone

i use 2 idyllic tutor MD and try to make a SB toolbox

Leyline of Sanctity for burn, discard and Jace MU, etc

Sphere of Law for goblins and burn

Runed Halo which is polyvalent

perhaps Suppression Field and aura of silence

can you help me
against merfolks, affinity, etc
every idea is welcome
i search something which is game breaking

Hey, that might be a good idea...

Against merfolk moat is probably the best enchantment you can get, if you want something a little faster try ghostly prison...
I usually just side in 4 ghostly prisons in addition to having 4 humility / 4 moat, that usually helps that matchup quite a bit.

Against affinity I have no clue, never really played that matchup with dutch stax...

oRen
01-02-2011, 09:12 PM
2 wishes maindeck are ok (regarding my last list i would cut/move to sb 1 moat and 1 oring) but sideboard toolboxing with them is bad overall.
you want the sb cards turn 1/2 on the board and not turn 3/4. postboard games are often over pretty fast and losing time is not good.

i would not consider 1-off toolboxing as an option. play stuff at least 2 times in the board and give cranial extraction a chance - if you are able to play properly this card is nuts !!

leyline - good one - 4off or none
sphere of law - no need for that one
runed halo - pretty much useless
aura of silence - mostly useless
supression field - imho bad in dutch stax

against merfolks and affinity ghostly prison should be the best card for the board.
when playing no humilities (which should not be further discussed here anyways) peacekeeper is really insane.

regards

sdematt
01-02-2011, 10:34 PM
Leyline is an auto-include. You don't need Sphere when you have Leyline, as Leyline covers Burn, but also discard, Jace, Combo, etc.

Leyline+Moat+Humility makes Goblins absolutely cry, as they can't Siege Gang out you or Elspeth, and they can't fly over the Moat.

Suppression Field is decent in the board for Dutch Stax, but not Wastelanding early or being able to Elspeth/Horizon Canopy hurts. Plus, this isn't AS relevant with Survival gone. Before, I would say it's an auto-include. Now, it mostly screws over Fetch heavy decks, which you do well against anyway (Zoo, basically).

Choke is good because you're blowing up lands, and it really puts the hurt on Merfolk, especially if you're maindecking Ghostly Prison/Tabernacle as well.

I played a hybrid Armageddon/Dutch Stax deck at a Legacy Tournament on Thursday and came third. I was playing regular Geddon stax as my main, with 4 Humility, 4 Leyline, 3 Choke, 4 Suppression Field as my board. I lost to Goblins (I scooped to allow a friend to get first) and lost to Elves (T3 Ulamog game 1, I drew nothing relevant game 2), placing 3rd overall. I think this deck is very strong especially now, as Tribal and Zoo are going to be coming back. Shutting down everyone's creatures seems really good.

I ended up beating Imperial Painter/Bomberman and killing TES (T1 he combos off; Game 2 he fizzles, I set up lock and win; Game 3 I have Chalice at 0 and 1 turn 1, Trinisphere T2, Wastelock T3).

-Matt

guedax
01-03-2011, 02:28 AM
im playing with moats and ghostly prison MD for dredge
i play 4 leyline of sanctity of course but sphere of law is another antiGob SB card for shutting down them definitly
i have tested choke and dont find them usefull because too slow against merfolks
since survival ban i see the come back of rock
i'm testing karmic justice
concerning sideboarding i see that pithing needle seems to be forgotten
but quasali and pernicious deed are very Atrocious
what do you think about ?

sdematt
01-03-2011, 02:41 AM
You're playing Humility. If you land it, Qasali means nothing. Other than that, Karmic Justice beats both those cards. Deed no longer becomes a viable answer, and Qasali turns into Vindicate against them.

Goblings don't need another nail in the coffin. Leyline cuts them off from pinging you with Sharpshooter, throwing guys over Moat with Siege Gang, etc. Sphere of Law is only good if you don't have either Moat or Humility out. I understand Sphere + Humility is a lock, but at that point, just use Ghostly Prison to lock them out.

-Matt

oRen
01-04-2011, 12:07 PM
i play 4 leyline of sanctity of course but sphere of law is another antiGob SB card for shutting down them definitly
you are still losing to piledrivers ... sphere is waste of sb slots.

since survival ban i see the come back of rock
orly ?
i thought of more real controldecks because those were unplayable lately.
time will tell.

concerning sideboarding i see that pithing needle seems to be forgotten
i generally dislike cards on cc 1 and cc 2. most of the time chalice 1 is superior to p needle.
considerable card but i dislike to have potential dead cards.