[Deck] Affinity

[4eak]

Vial Affinity

By: 4eak and GreenOne

This primer is intended to be a thorough review of the deck, card selections, and metagame concerns for the aggro-combo version of Affinity, aka. Raffinity, Ravager Affinity, Vial Affinity, etc. Hopefully, this will be a good resource and reference for long-time players of this archetype and a good starting place for all new-comers to Legacy Affinity.

Here is the old Vial Affinity thread:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8147


I. Introduction to Vial Affinity

Vial Affinity is an artifact-based aggro-combo deck; it is the quintessential “synergy deck.” The deck uses fairly powerful tempo enhancing effects such as the affinity mechanic (the namesake), modular, creature-centric mana acceleration, and scalable damage components to apply a great deal of early to mid game pressure. The aggro element is both powerful and versatile, and it has enough combat tricks to act as a combo deck in the last few turns of a game as it can often bypass many control features presented by an opponent (removal, blocking, unmanageable disciple life loss, etc.). Some might say that affinity breaks several of the expected design principles of magic as it possesses the ability: to play multiple extremely undercosted spells, to dodge pin-point control too effectively, and to put more permanents in play within the first 3 turns than a normal deck should.

The deck was born and banned in Standard. Due to the rigid nature of its synergy requirements, the deck did not change very much when ported to formats with larger cardpools. Affinity (and all of its variants) has never performed in other formats as successfully as it did in Type 2. The artifact hate and faster fundamental turn in formats with larger cardpools provide serious barriers to the success of the deck. Instead of being completely unfair in the Legacy format, Affinity is only a strong choice in aggro-control and control heavy metagames. It remains a fair deck, but never a broken one.

Here is a current decklist of Vial Affinity:



Lands: 18
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Darksteel Citadel
3 City of Brass
3 Tree of Tales

Creatures: 28
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Frogmite
4 Ornithopter
4 Master of Etherium
4 Myr Enforcer

Spells: 14
4 Thoughtcast
4 Cranial Plating
3 Aether Vial
3 Springleaf Drum

Sideboard: 15
4 Pithing Needle
4 Krosan Grip
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Tormod’s Crypt


The deck sets up on turn 1 and attempts to regurgitate its entire hand on turns 2 and 3.


II. Metagames for Vial Affinity

Assuming that affinity is built and played correctly, this once dominating force from T2 is really hindered by two things in Legacy: 1.) Combo, and 2.) the amazing hate available. Each of these contributes to affinity becoming strictly a metagame deck. This deck can never be tier 1 or viable if widely sided against, but given the right metagame it is quite viable.

Affinity is known for being able to play effectively under mana-light or mana-denial conditions, and although less known for it, the deck has good odds against blue-based metagames. It is a bomby aggro deck that is resilient to many blue control strategies, including pin-point removal and CB/top softlocks, and it consistently puts up strong pressure.

Vial Affinity suffers from the classic aggro problem of not being able to disrupt or race Combo effectively enough. Affinity does not defeat well-played and well-built combo decks in Legacy. You can run CoTV, FoW, SoR, Stifle, Ethersworn Canonist, and Therapy, and you’ll still be lucky to go 50/50 against a competent combo player. Watering your deck’s strategy down puts you turns and turns behind on the board (on average), while your disruption simply delays the inevitable. Even if affinity can curb the losses in the combo department, it will usually require major sacrifices against other archetypes, negating the reason to play affinity at all. In environments flourishing with combo, you probably shouldn’t be playing this deck.

The other reason why Affinity could never be Tier 1 in Legacy is due to the amount of hate available -- affinity simply can't live through it. For example, Energy Flux, Shattering Spree, and Kataki are just a few of the many exceptionally deadly tools against Affinity. Combined with several other cards, sideboards prepared for affinity would impose insurmountable obstacles.

This “hate” problem doesn’t just keep Vial Affinity from being a Tier 1 deck, but to some degree it is a ubiquitous problem that every metagame already poses. Don’t expect this deck to be nearly as powerful, proportionately to the metagame, as it was in Standard. Like many of the Established decks, it is merely a good one, but not a great one.

Pretty much every deck in the format has at least some a) artifact hate, b) land destruction, and c) creature removal. While many aggro and combo decks can remain nearly immune against at least one or two of the above, almost any piece of board control remains at least somewhat relevant against Affinity. Despite the common presence of these control cards, due to the raw synergy of the deck and the resilience offered by cards like Disciple of the Vault, Cranial Plating, and Arcbound Ravager, the deck can sustain or avoid several control and disruption features presented by the format. They have lots of hate, but we have lots of resilience.

Vial Affinity, at best, is a metagame deck. You choose to play the deck because you know your opponents are not packing enough hate and that they can't outrace you with combo. However, with that said, if the metagame does not anticipate the deck (and it currently doesn't in many areas), it can be a very powerful ‘rogue’ deck. Affinity is a deck that is underestimated by many, and in part, this is why the metagame would allow for affinity to be a viable competitor. Affinity can play like a tier 1 deck, it simply can’t afford to play in a metagame that anticipates it like a tier 1 deck.


III. Synergy & Vial Affinity’s Evolutionary Requirements

The pivotal strength (and what some may eventually find to be a weakness) of affinity is its raw internal synergy. Vial Affinity exists in virtue of its synergy. The foundation of this synergy is the artifact land-base. For affinity spells, each land counts for double the mana, one for its tap effect, and the other to lower a spells cost through the affinity mechanic. The use of artifact lands allows for affinity spells to often be played for free even, and then mana is spent on other spells/abilities. Artifact lands also improve the offensive capacity of other spells such as Disciple of the Vault, Arcbound Ravager, Cranial Plating, and Master of Etherium which scale directly with the number of artifacts in play, and thus the artifact lands act not only as a source of mana, but also as a source of damage with each of these cards. This synergy comes at almost no cost because lands are uncounterable and free to play.

The internal synergy is also amplified by using artifact spells almost exclusively. With the exception of Thoughtcast for draw, Disciple for comboing and resilience to control, and rainbow lands for color smoothing, all other cards in the deck are artifact permanents that have synergistic impact with the other cards in the deck.

Vial Affinity rarely draws hands that it doesn't want to keep, and nearly every card you draw in the deck will have a positive interaction with all the other cards in the deck. Generally, everything in the deck is relevant to your current board position, and cards often have a multiplicative effect beyond their initial perceived relevance and power (artifact + disciple + ravager + modular + affinity factor + etc.). Essentially, the whole is much greater than the sum of the parts. When played correctly, the high average card relevance, synergy, and well-abused tempo mechanics gives affinity resilience and speed that is rarely matched by other aggro and aggro-combo decks.

This strength of its synergy, however, can act as a weakness in deckbuilding. There is a common misconception about how the deck can evolve in a format. Many people fail to realize the problems with a deck that requires every single piece in the deck to maintain synergy; essentially, it is very difficult to change the deck without upsetting the synergy of the deck itself. For example, even to add Legacy staples like Swords to Plowshares or Stifle, or using more unusual cards like Cloud of Faeries and Somber Hoverguards while subtracting other relevant artifacts, acts as a barrier not only to a proper mana base (and the abuse of it), but it waters the deck down, eliminating the very strength of its synergy.

If you cut artifacts for non-artifacts, you decrease your card relevance in terms of the average progression of your aggro-combo gameplan itself. Even cutting certain artifacts for others can demonstrate a decrease in synergy. Watering the deck down only prevents affinity from doing what it does best, which is the abuse of its internal synergy. This means that Affinity has very limited sideboard options and few evolutions available. Admittedly, this misconception is fairly widespread because it is difficult to see the web of synergy interactions that each card helps to compose.

While this might seem harsh to some, the truth needs to be said: Like a few other popular archetypes (Burn is a good example), Affinity has a well-earned reputation for bad players and poor builds. It is often a deck that is picked up by Legacy newcomers as it is an obvious port that most have encountered. Many people believe they've got an innovation or improved variant of Affinity, and in reality, they simply don't have a better deck.

Affinity is a deck that is shackled down by its internal synergy and is largely unable to evolve beyond a rare new card that comes out in a new set (e.g. MoE).

Taking into consideration the two-edged sword of synergy, Vial Affinity will fail to evolve away from a very specific type of aggro-combo. While there is work being done on agro-control versions of the deck, such as AfFOWnity, 8-Ball, Deep Blue, etc., none of these decks are concerned with the raw agro-combo role which is played by Vial Affinity. To add control components is to weaken its architecture as an aggro-combo deck. Even further, removing an aggro card for a control card is more than just a 1 for 1 substitution in affinity. The change forms a much larger loss in the aggro-combo functionality of the deck than merely 1 card (as synergy multiplies an aggro card’s relevance), while there only remains 1 control card to be gained. This loss isn’t worth it. For Vial Affinity, if you are playing control cards in the main, you have misassigned your role.

Vial Affinity will continue to specialize and develop as an agro-combo deck if it wishes to further its competitive advantage. Developing and modifying affinity requires a great deal of justification. Adding and subtracting cards from affinity is innately more difficult and complex to do correctly. The opportunity cost of running one card and not another is difficult to measure in this deck. Now, that doesn’t mean there aren’t innovations to be had, but with a deck that revolves so much around its internal synergy, the proponents of the status quo are fairly justified in denying the vast majority of “innovations and tech” that people prescribe. Just remember, it all adds up. All too often, modifications actually decrease the effectiveness of the basic shell of vial affinity.

As some will not fully recognize there are diminishing returns and limits to substitutions in this deck, we need to clarify a fairly universal principle for those individuals who wish to innovate and evolve affinity: There is a difference between a deck that can win a game and an optimal deck. Most every build can win some games, but some builds will win more than others. Optimal builds will have the best chance of winning (not just 'some chance'). Winning some is not the same as winning the most possible, and we are interested in optimal builds that have the highest probability of winning. This misunderstanding can make it difficult for many people to see why their tech is suboptimal or flat out sucks. They still win games in spite of their tech, not in virtue of their tech.

Clearly, Vial Affinity is at a disadvantage in terms of how it can evolve. It takes a new card from a new set, like Master of Etherium, to have serious impact on the archetype. Speaking of which, Master of Etherium has filled in the last few unknown slots of the deck, and it is safe to say we have a stable and optimized build of the deck because of this card. We don’t need to worry about filling in gaps with cards like Goyf, Confidant, or Fling. Until new cards born for the deck come out in future sets, innovations will be small for this deck. Vial Affinity is a deck to fine tune, not revolutionize.

[4eak]

IV. Main Card Choices

I’ll try to work from the most important cards to the least. The only exception is that I’ll be placing the mana-base that supports the deck at the end, even though I consider it central to the deck.


Arcbound Ravager—This is the strongest card in the deck. For 2 colorless he’s almost immune to removal, in fact he punishes removal on almost all of your permanents, and he scales with your artifacts. He is an artifact-board-based tog. He converts permanents into resources that are transferable (often unblocked) damage while abusing Disciple of the Vault. Ravager channels your board position into damage based tempo. Assuming you don’t need your permanents after you’ve won, Ravager makes the most of your board by efficiently sacrificing into stronger board positions than any normal deck has the right to boast. The card should have cost 4-5 mana for what it does.

The stack tricks with this card can be as basic as sacking to live through a bolt, to sacking out for disciple triggers and putting modular on an unblocked creature, or even much more complex tricks on the stack. He gives the deck versatility. Ravager allows you to overcome a great deal of control elements in the game, negating the effectiveness of removal and blocking, while simultaneously creating a huge threat on the board.

A poor pilot will overextend with this card, while a competent pilot uses Ravager to remain resilient and explosive. It takes experience to know when and how to go ‘all in’, and when to use it defensively, and without a doubt, it offers poses some of the more difficult questions for Vial Affinity pilots.


Master of Etherium— A titan tailormade for Affinity. It is almost tied for power level with Cranial Plating. This addition to Vial Affinity has evolved the deck even further into a bomby, scalable aggro deck, and has pushed Affinity over a threshold need for using almost artifacts exclusively. He not only scales without sacking or equipping as an artifact ‘lord’, but he also pumps the rest of your artifact creatures by +1/+1. It is not uncommon for this card to put 10, 15, even 20 damage on the table.

MoE makes Tarmogoyf look like a pansy. He can tower over Phyrexian Dreadnought. MoE is one of the hardest hitting creatures in the format. His mana-cost and artifact-needs warp the deck, but it is worth it. He can edict your opponent every turn, act as a great blocker if necessary, and if he goes unanswered for a single turn, then your opponent will die. He is not, however, a replacement for Ravager.

There appears to be a conflict of interest between MoE and Ravager, but in practice you'll see why the deck should play both Ravager and MoE. They play different roles. MoE is best when he is unanswered (essentially, when you were already winning), while Ravager is at his best when they have answers (when you were in a even or losing position usually).

Ravager's ability to punish control is the bridge from losing/even positions to even/winning positions. He pushes through damage where MoE cannot, and he converts targets of removal into permanent damage on the table. Clearly, they have different roles. The primary similarity is their ability to scale with artifacts in play. Scaling damage components are the reason artifact lands are powerful in the first place. MoE/Ravager/Plating are the holy trinity of the artifact deck.


Cranial Plating—The 3rd pure scaling card of the deck. While it can be mana intensive, this card wins games. Like ravager, it turns each artifact on the table into 1 damage. Unlike the ravager, you don’t have to lose your permanents to reap the benefits. This card is so central to the aggro theme that it is an auto-4.

Cranialed creatures play a similar role to Atog in that the equipped creature is a definite threat, one that often functions as a bluff-card or forces your opponent into less preferred positions. You will often equip your weakest creature (Arcbound Worker/Ornithopter), forcing your opponent to pin-point control the least of your creatures, while other cards like Frogmite and Enforcer swing through. And, if unblocked, a single connect from an equipped creature might be the end of your opponent. Additionally, cranial can play as a defensive card, making your blocker of choice lethal. This is a versatile card.

The instant equip is often overlooked by an opponent. While less necessary now’n’days, it can switch to unblocked creatures before damage is on the stack, and that gives you an upperhand. Double black can be difficult to come by, however, a proper mana-base can afford this in the mid and late game.


Disciple of the Vault — His ability is brokenly good. His obvious synergy with Arcbound Ravager can turn his 1 mana cost into massive amounts of damage. I am not surprised to see his 1 mana cost turn into my opponent’s 10 life loss. This card is excellent in multiples. While he creates auto-win circumstances past 3rd turn when you have a Ravager on the board, his largest strength is Legacy is his ability to punish control and removal.

His role has diminished since the days of Standard, but he is still a necessary component of Vial Affinity. Many have tried to remove Disciple of the Vault, as he isn’t an artifact and is merely a 1/1 for one if nothing is hitting the graveyard. The basic rule is this: He may or may not be good when you were already winning, but he is insanely good when you are tied or could be losing. For example, mass board sweepers can become deadly with disciple on the board, and it often forces control players into pin-point removal before they can sweep the board.

Opponents often forget about disciple both in the deck, hand and in play. This gives you an excellent information advantage that will often surprise the opponent as they didn’t properly anticipate the effects of Disciple. For opponent’s that are strategically prepared for it, you can use it as a bluff card from Vial. Generally, it is best to hold back on playing Disciple until mid to late game if possible. While he is a lackluster 1st turn play, his late game vial-into-play can flat out win games on the stack. Top-decking this card can turn losing-board positions into winning ones.

I cannot stress this card enough. Disciple isn’t just about winning very fast with a Ravager. Decks that would seek to lock Affinity out or control the game are put in dangerous positions because of this card; Disciple is a key card to defeating any deck sporting control.


Aether Vial—Probably one of the strongest 1cc cards in all of Legacy, and as part of its namesake, Vial Affinity can abuse this card better than most. Against an unknown deck or anything with blue, this is the best first turn play in the deck. This card is a ‘must-counter’ for blue-based control and aggro-control decks. If it resolves, then you are in an excellent position to push through uncounterable bombs and punish removal.

Aether vial is a tempo enhancing card (as demonstrated in several decks), it offers:

Uncounterable creatures; very powerful against permission and Counterbalance decks
Makes the deck resilient against land destruction
Enables you to keep 1 land hands
Mana Color Smoothing
Mana Acceleration (each use beyond the first is all gravy)
Playing Creatures as instants (most importantly Disciple/Ravager tricks)
It is an artifact.
Remains relevant from start to finish
The general rule for the deck: Where Vial Affinity deserves to be played, Vial deserves to be played. If Aether Vial is somehow a terrible choice in a specific metagame, then Vial Affinity is a terrible choice in that specific metagame. You are playing in a metagame that is simply too fast for Affinity to be competitive.

Aether Vial is not an optional card for optimal builds of Vial Affinity. With that said, the exact number you can run is optional. Because there are diminishing returns to the card and we have access to Drum, 3 is an acceptable minimum. Others may run 4, and that is also very acceptable.


Thoughtcast— Thoughtcast is the bridge from the early to mid game, and there is no replacement for it. Card advantage, straight up 2 for 1, usually for 1 mana, and it draws NOW. This is 2/3’s of an Ancestral recall at sorcery speed. While this isn’t a cantrip, primarily because it is played after turn 1 (usually around turn 3), it is extremely undercosted card advantage. I cannot stress enough: learn to trust your card advantage. Too many people don’t see the relevance of drawing in affinity.

It is easy to see where you don’t like Thoughtcast. The color and affinity factor are definitely constraints on its playability, but MoE makes blue an obvious choice. And, you may even say, why waste the slot when I would rather have a threat in my hand than a thoughtcast? The difference is that Thoughtcast allows you to run only the most relevant threats, increasing your average card relevance like a cantrip, while also giving you a much stronger mid-late game because of card advantage. It is both card quality (from a deck building perspective) and card advantage. Thoughtcast is very similar to Ringleader in Goblins.

Card advantage is not mere card advantage in affinity either. Card advantage in affinity often translates into immediate tempo advantage as well. Unlike other decks that spend their entire turn and all their mana trying to generate card advantage, at the expense of that turns increase in tempo, Affinity is almost uniquely able to do both. Those other decks might be tapping out or expending very important resources to even draw cards, however, affinity can pay one mana, and in most cases will still have resources left to play what it drew. For example, drawing an enforcer and a land off a thoughtcast (a fairly weak Thoughtcast actually) and playing them that turn has immediate effects. Outside a few control cards, most other decks will not experience tempo advantage in the same turn that they gained true card advantage. Affinity gets the best of both worlds with Thoughtcast.

This card is so powerful that it alone makes blue the most relevant color to have on the table in affinity (although black comes in a close second). If I drop a first turn land (assuming I might lose it), and if I have a choice, it will never be a blue producer. Resolving thoughtcast is that important.


Springleaf Drum— This is the other explosive mana accelerant, and it enables the fastest wins when the deck is left uncontrolled. It serves a slightly different purpose than Aether Vial in that it smoothes your colors for all spells, making MoE/Disciple/Thoughtcast easier to cast, but it also enables a diverse sideboard.

Vial Affinity is in great need of 1st turn mana accelerants that are not card disadvantage, and generally this card plays slots 4-6 in the mana accelerant slot. This is superior to Chromatic Sphere/Star because it actually accelerates (not just smoothes colors), and it is superior to Lotus petal because it doesn’t create card disadvantage. This card helps you regurgitate your hand into play.

THIS CARD DOES NOT REPLACE AETHER VIAL; IT COMPLEMENTS AETHER VIAL. Vial Affinity cannot afford to remove either Vial or Drum from the main. I suggest running 3 of each, because both of these card suffer from diminishing returns in multiples. But, if you goto 4 on either card, Vial should be first.


Frogmite—Bread’n’Butter. You never play this for 4. Usually he drops for free, but once in a while you’ll pay the 1 or 2 to put him into play. 0-2 payed cost for a 2/2 Artifact creature with a very high actual CC is excellent (CC-based removal have difficulty with him). Frogmite is to your 2nd turn as what Arcbound Worker is to your 1st turn. This is a solid play, and it is part of bricks and mortar that binds this deck together in synergy.
I haven’t much else to say about this card. Removal of this card will cause your aggro-combo Affinity deck to fail. Don’t leave home without it.


Arcbound Worker—A truly underestimated card. This is a high synergy card. He enables combos, enables affinity, and greatly assists ravager-based board positions. His value to the deck (while different in function) is comparable to what Mogg Fanatic was in pre-Goyf Goblin decks. Vial Affinity really needs a 1 drop artifact creature, and this is the best one out there.

At 1 for 1/1 on the table he is fair. But, his artifactness and modularity allow him to do some extraordinary things for his cheap casting cost, making this card much better than 1 for 1/1. The death of Arcbound worker is not the death of 1/1 on the table (as long as you control another artifact creature). Not only can you get disciple triggers, but the modular ability allows your 1 mana spent to continue being damage on the board. In most cases, to assume his removal or sacrifice is to assume that you spent 1 mana for 2 consecutive 1/1’s with multiple synergies in between.

Arcbound is definitely a combat tricks creature with excellent synergy. He can be sided out, but he cannot be removed from the main.


Myr Enforcer—He is a fattie in Legacy and an aggro-control slayer. He is a clock, and he becomes castable generally on 3rd turn. He is a threat that the opponent cannot ignore. Myr Enforcer is to the 3rd turn as what Frogmite is to the 2nd turn. Enforcer comes into play earlier than a 4/4 creature should, and this is exactly the sort of tempo advantage that an aggro deck seeks.

He is a free 4/4 body that is easy to drop in a 45-50 artifact count deck.
He punishes anyone who is chump blocking MoE/Cranial/Ravager.
He is pure aggro, and that is what Vial Affinity is all about.
He is your necessary pressure when you don't have MoE/Cranial/Ravager.
He becomes better in multiples (a fact which many have forgotten)
I am amazed at the number of people that opt not to run him. He is an great drop 3rd turn or 10th turn, and multiples are certainly a good thing. When you find yourself in board positions that do not seek to sac out to ravager, and you don’t have MoE, Enforcer is the largest and often most relevant creature on the board. Enforcer can be seen as a stabilizing aggro card in this deck, allowing affinity to reach critical mass.

At any point you would cast this card, he is mana-efficient. A turn 2, 3, or 4 enforcer will often win games. Think of Enforcer as being similar to Arrogant Wurm in UG madness, only better--He is cheap fat that furthers the very game plan that an aggro deck like Vial Affinity is trying to play.


Ornithopter—Sometimes an underestimated card. 0/2 for free not only gives you early game artifact-factor, but it gives you something even more important: evasion. Ornithopter is damage over the top, and affinity desperately needs good ways to maximally abuse modular and cranial plating. This creature will win you countless games that non-evasion non-artifact creatures could not.

Ornithopter helps Affinity bend the rules of magic by making permanent based tempo plays that can only be matched by Vintage Workshop decks. Ornithopter greatly increases the overall synergy of the deck which improves the aggressive aims of the deck. The card:

Carries Cranial Plating better than any other card in most situations
Is a strong modular target
Generates mana very effectively off Springleaf Drum, especially in the first 2 or 3 turns
Improves the odds of playing and increases the utility gained from Master of Etherium
Punishes decks that can't block him by channeling your board's artifact-based damage accelerants (Plating/Ravager) through him.
Increases "Affinity" factor at NO cost. Myr Enforcer and Frogmite love this card.
This is another card that Affinity players/builders think about removing. After all, 0/2 flying doesn’t sound great. But, like worker and frogmite, this card is part of the tempo engine that stitches the deck together, and it will win countless games flying over defending creatures.


Land—The landbase is often misunderstood. The artifact lands in particular are fundamental to the deck's construction. You can run no less than 12 artifact-type lands (preferably 15 or 16), and no less than 17 lands total (preferably 18 or 19).

What is an artifact land to Affinity? Each land=

1 Mana per turn
-1CC of up to 12 cards or a -0.2 shift in the average CC of the deck (this is tempo)
+1/+1 Counters for Ravager
1-4 Disciple Triggers
1-4 +1/+0 Cranial Plating
1-4 MoE Lord pumps

People who play affinity with the mindset of running the fewest possible lands with the most spells possible are missing the point. The artifact lands might be subtle, but they are extremely powerful in this deck. So, while you can certainly win games with only 1 or 2 land in play, you will often fail to recognize what those 1-2 lands really did for you during the game. The best part about land in this deck is that land is never a dead draw. Land can always be put to use beyond mana production. This means that affinity, just in virtue of its land, has a higher average card relevance than would be initially expected. Don’t be afraid to run 19-20 lands in this deck. Seriously people, this is Legacy, wasteland.format, PLAY MORE LANDS!

Just to give you an idea of the difference between 16 and 18 lands:

With 16 lands
Having X or more lands in your opening hand:
1=90% 2=61% 3=27%
Having exactly X lands in your opening hand:
0=10% 1=29% 2=34% 3=20% >4=7%
Having one color in hand (a drum or a land that can produce a certain mana source): 60%

With 18 lands
Having X or more lands in your opening hand:
1=93% 2=69% 3=35% >4=11%
Having exactly X lands in your opening hand:
1=24% 2=34% 3=24% >4=11%
Having one color in hand: 70%


Seat of the Synod, Vault of Whispers— Start here, and fill in the rest.

Darksteel Citadel — For most Vial Affinity players, this is an auto-4, but there are a few metagames where it would be acceptable to not play this card. This opens the deck up to a 4th color, man-lands, or color-smoothing. If you see LD (and most of us will see a lot of it), then play this card.

Tree of Tales—I suggest green as your third color in Affinity for a single card: Krosan Grip. If you don’t play Krosan Grip (which is most likely a mistake), then Ancient Den or Great Furnace are the replacements.

Rainbow Land-Affinity, problematically, can be color-starved. While Aether Vial and Drum curb the mana color inconsistencies to some degree, affinity is still reliant upon other chromatic mana producers. In order to have a proper mana base for both the main, and especially for the cards in your sideboard, you’ll need to run rainbow lands.

You don’t want to be sitting on Disciple, Thoughtcast, MoE, and instant equip Cranials because you don’t have the color available. In fact, without a proper mana-base to produce the rainbow, you actually decrease average card relevance in this deck. It is absolutely essential that affinity has the ability to use every single component of its hand as soon as possible.

You can play Glimmervoid or City of Brass. You cannot play less than 2 of them, and in testing, 3 has been an optimal number. I suggest City of Brass for most, but Glimmervoid is also acceptable under several conditions. Ask yourself if your lifetotal matters. If it does, then think about using Glimmervoid, otherwise stick to City of Brass.

[4eak]

V. Sideboarding

Sideboarding options are actually fairly limited for this deck. All too often the sideboard just waters the deck down too much. There are a few exceptions, some because they don’t water the deck down too much by being artifacts, and others because they are abnormally powerful against the decks which we expect to face in metagames where Vial Affinity can be viable. Here are the two general sideboard cards that are ubiquitous:

Pithing Needle— is the only card I never change in my sideboard. It answers bad shit, and the main reason it isn’t in the main is because it can’t be played first turn in the first game. Don’t leave home without this card.

Tormod’s Crypt—I consider this card optional, depending completely on your metagame. It is better than Relic though, so if you choose to run GY hate, then this is likely to be the better card.


For the other slots, there are two real sideboard concerns:

a.) Are you building it to answer combo?
b.) What is your third color? (or rather, what color will your sideboard dictate?)

If A, then you’ll need to use cards like:

Chalice of the Void (the strongest card available)
Ethersworn Canonist (stronger against storm than resistor effects)
Thorn of Amethyst
Sphere of Resistance
Cabal Therapy (not as useful anymore, but an option)Choosing to sideboard against combo is a big risk. You probably shouldn’t even be playing Vial Affinity in tournaments where you expect to see a lot of combo. Even after a full 12-15 card sideboard for combo, you’ll be lucky to see 50/50 matches against combo experts.

For those who aren’t committing their sideboard to answer combo, when considering B.) we are really asking, do we want white, red, or green? I believe the answer is that we need a color with disenchant effects.

Good targets for Disenchant effects:

Counterbalance/Top
Vedalken Shackles
Moat
Humility
Ghostly Prison/Propaganda/Elephant Grass
Powder Keg
Pernicious Deed
Engineered Explosives
Nevi's Disk
Survival
Dreadnought
Chalice
Crucible of Worlds
Energy Flux (if you somehow see this card)
Solitary Confinement
Jitte/Swords
Vial
Needle
Smokestack(yes, I know a few can drop'n'pop without passing priority after they resolve)

Legacy control decks, which make up a huge portion of the competitive decks that are played, are artifact and enchantment oriented decks. Every one of them is really attempting to resolve their big artifact and/or enchantment and create massive card advantage through it.

DE effects prevent that card advantage and control, and if resolved, it is the most relevant answer to any control deck in Legacy (LD is also quite powerful but unplayable in this deck). Blue-based control strategies are innately hard to metagame against because they can use permission to overcome whatever hate you bring in against them. Here is where Krosan Grip is so powerful, and the reason we should play green as our third color.

Split Second DE is the biggest kick in the nuts to control, not just because it kills their precious CA-generating controlling artifact or enchantment, but simply because they really can't stop it. It has changed the way control decks operate, and it will continue to shape Legacy.

Seals or Naturalize is clearly worlds behind the value of K-grip in the sideboard. When you side in K-Grip, you are back in the aggro role because you don't need to worry nearly as much about baiting counters, slow rolling, etc. Other cards used to answer control, which don't have split second, are so inferior that many aren't even worth playing (even if K-Grip didn't exist).

Lastly, while Needle can do things KGrip cannot, it is also generally less potent, it is counterable, one can play around the card, and it gives up a serious information advantage. KGrip can be sandbagged, and that makes it even more potent against the metagames where Vial Affinity merits play.

The generic sideboard that isn’t intended to answer combo:

4 Pithing Needle
4 Krosan Grip
3-4 Tormod’s Crypt
3-4 Metaslot


VI. Notable Exclusions

Blinkmoth Nexus— Before SoA, I believe it was an auto 3x. After SoA, I've not had as good of results when I use the card. The problem with Nexus is that he is both colorless and not a natural artifact. MoE demands natural artifact lands or color smoothing. Nexus does not add affinity factor unless you are tapping it to itself, and even then, it only matters on the 2nd affinity spell casted in a turn (which is unlikely).

We don’t require the flying from this card, we do require our lands to be artifacts or color smoothers though.

Epochrasite—Some have found the card useful in testing, but I do not recommend the card. It is expensive, too conditional, too slow to abuse effectively, and it costs us slots we can’t afford. It would fit either the Worker or Enforcer slot, and unfortunately, it fills neither of those cards' roles as effectively. Worker has too much synergy on first turn, and Enforcer is too free and guarenteed to be a 4/4.

Atog— Atog is as close to ever as being dead to affinity. That card gets rocked by removal and it isn't an artifact. MoE/Plating/Ravager are just stronger. It is in the wrong color, it overextends, and it doesn’t permanently scale with your artifacts.

Shrapnel Blast—My love, my heart. I am so sad that I cannot run this card anymore.

This card isn’t an artifact, and essentially doesn’t provide enough synergy. While it isn’t exactly card disadvantage when you take the time to analyze it, the card is no longer appropriate due to the existence of Master of Etherium (and its deck requirements) and because we need to play disenchant effects.

There are metagames where not playing Green or not playing Darksteel Citadel could maybe be acceptable or worth the risk to gain access to Shrapnel Blast in the side. For the majority of people, I don't recommend playing Shrapnel Blast anymore. If you play them, 2 has tested best, and 3 is really the maximum.

Fling/Soul's Fire—Worse than Shrapnel. Fling is a card that is too narrow and conditional while also suffering from not being an artifact, and it is merely a cool thing. It converts your most important card on the board into damage, unlike Shrapnel which creates almost the same damage (on average) for the cost of the least important card (even non-creature) for damage. If Shrapnel is dead, then this card doesn’t even stand a chance. Soul’s Fire is also just too expensive and conditional.

Goyf/Confidant—These are dead to Vial Affinity. They cost too much, do too little, and while they belong in some decks, they don’t in this one. We have much better creatures that come out much sooner. They aren’t artifacts, and while that might seem like it could shore up affinity’s game against control; playing these cards merely slow your normal gameplan while not really preventing you from losing against decks that answer us.

Enlightened Tutor— Aggro-combo decks are redundant for a reason. They need to maximize their card advantage and negate the need for mulligans (which is a form of card advantage). While it can grab interesting cards in the sideboard in games 2 and 3, like Hanna’ Custody, the card disadvantage and color problem makes this unplayable. In most cases, you would be E-Tutoring for a bomb, and in that case, the card disadvantage is simply never worth it.

Dispeller's Capsule—Not a terrible card, but the coloring is difficult to cast and bends mana-base over to make it work. K-Grip is just flat better if you need a DE effect.

Executioner’s Capsule—Slow, and has no target worth the loss in aggro to play this.

Umezawa's Jitte—This card is simply too mana-intensive for the deck. It doesn't fit, especially not at the expense of a Plating.

Tidehollow Sculler—Double colored Artifact-Fiend plays the wrong role, is too easy to answer and remove, too hard to cast in the first place, and there are much better alternatives. He also suffers from the Dark Confidant syndrome; I don't want to swing with him, even in an aggro deck.

Tidehollow Strix—The color cost is problematic. This is much stronger than Sculler as it has seriously potent mechanics in flying and deathtouch. Perhaps a decks with 4x of CoB/Vial/Drum in certain creature heavy metagames could consider the card, but testing has shown that it is still too hard to cast.

Ethersworn Canonist—E-Canon is just not that amazing in the mainboard of Vial-Affinity. Vial Affinity is an aggro-combo deck that isn't very interested in controlling the game with cards like E-Canon unless you are playing against combo. He can be sideboard material, but that signifies that you anticipate playing against combo, which is a metagame where Affinity may not even belong.

Meddling mage—double color, has Confidant Syndrome, and really only merits play against combo. Canon and Spheres are just strictly better for Affinity (although I wouldn’t say the same for other decks).

Etherium Sculptor— The card is expensive for what you get in aggro-combo affinity. It does too little too late. I like the card, but it just doesn't add enough to the deck for the slot. This deck already has better ways to cheat mana at this point. The sculptor is very nice in affinity decks that play, well...fewer affinity cards, weaker mana-bases, and higher mana-curves. That card really belongs in aggro-control affinity decks, but it has no place in Vial Affinity.

Thirst for Knowledge—Thoughtcast that costs 2 more mana. Not worth it. We have bombs and mana acceleration to play.

StP/Stifle/Annul/Trinket mage/Dreadnought/FoW—These are not to be played in an aggro-combo deck, they belong in an aggro-control deck. Vial Affinity does not hold back mana and cripple its tempo to play cards like Stifle or StP. These cards are never worth the opportunity cost of just playing straight threats and acceleration. Wrong role, wrong deck, wrong thread.

Chrome Mox—The speed used to be worth it because it pushed Affinity over that threshold of standard’s fundamental turn, enabling wins way too early. Legacy is too fast and Affinity is comparatively too slow to use card disadvantageous mana accelerants.

Somber Hoverguard—Too expensive for what you get, and he isn't an artifact.

Glaze Fiend/Moriok Rigger/Salvage Slasher/Homunculus—Worse than the cards they would replace. If you were going for highlander Affinity, then sure. Slasher could see sideboard use, but it would be very limited.


VII. Matchup Analyses

These are broad matchup analyses using the popular versions of these decks. Some of these analyses will differ from the opposing deck’s primer; I attribute this difference to a general lack of testing against Affinity lists (including cards like MoE,) with proper pilots. We could not include all matchups, and we didn't give percentages or perfect walk-through strategies. But, this should be a decent rundown of how Vial Affinity performs against a good portion of the field.


Ad Nauseam Storm: heavily unfavorable
Look for hands that can do massive damage in the first 2-3 turns. Remember that disciple triggers with their artifacts too. Chalice@0 is very effective against them, as is a turn 2/3 Ravager+Disciple. Quick damage might destabilize AdN, and that is you general goal.


TES: heavily unfavorable
They have too many paths to victory and you literally can't do much but try to race their mediocre hand. They're also siding Shattering Sprees, you're done.


Solidarity: unfavorable
They are much slower than tendrils combo decks, and that gives you a shot at racing them. Unlike most agro decks, we do have the ability to win on 3rd and 4th turn, which is where they can begin to combo (3 land minimum). Depending on your sideboard, this match could come close to even.


Aggro Loam: even to favorable
They're an aggro control deck with really big threats that disrupts opponent's mana too. Unfortunately for them you have 4 indestructible lands, 6 non-land mana generators and 4 Cranial + 4 MoE that are bigger than their threat in the early game. Ravager often screws their math with Devastating Dreams.


Goyf Sligh / Boros: even to favorable
Try to hold the fort in the first 2-3 turns and take less damage possible. At this point your biggest dudes (Ravager, MoE, Enforcer) should be in play and you should become the aggressor. Watch out for Price of Progres, never make more than a couple of land drops unless you need them and use ravager to eat your lands to take less damage. Chalice from the side is golden.


Burn: even
Do whatever you can to win the dice roll. This mathup is a straight race, but they have control cards to slow you down (eg. bolt a Frogmite wearing a Plating). Here Ravager, MoE, Enforcer and Cranial shines. Don't be shy with sacrificing artifacts on ravager as long as you have other modular targets. Proper timing is required with ravager to avoid lethal burn spells. Post side you have Chalice and they got Spree, and both are huge.


Dragon Stompy: favorable
If you play first then Chalice@1 is not going to wreck you, you're going to laugh at Blood Moon effects (you play colorless spells and have 3 drums and 3 vials for the coloured ones), and many of your creatures are bigger than theirs. Trinisphere can make you cry though. If the opponent is attacking with a Jitte-wearing dude remember to block and sacrifice the blocker to ravager, so they're not putting counters on Jitte. Postside you got Krosan Grips and they are siding Spree/Pyrokinesis


Dreadstill: even to favorable
You can lose if they got an early Dreadnought, but their main strategies are to build card advantage with Standstill and CB/Top. Unfortunately for them, your ability to put so much power on the table in the early turns (and vial) doesn't work well with standstill, and the CB/top engine doesn't work well against vial and 3cc, 4cc and 7cc spells. Watch out for EE (don't play other 2CC cards if you already have a cranial plating but go for an enforcer instead) and for Stifle on modular triggers.


Enchantress: slightly unfavorable
You're an aggro deck and their deck is made to beat you. However, you actually have many good solutions to their control cards:
Elephant Grass: Plating, Ravager, MoE, Disciple+Ravager
Moat: Ornithopter+ Ravager/Cranial, Disciple+Ravager
Everything that it's not Solitary Confinament is not an hard lock against us. Goblin suffers much more from those control cards.


Goblins: even
If they don't have the lackey draw you're the aggressor. Your dudes are bigger, but if they are given time their card advantage will bury you.


Ichorid: slightly unfavorable
They are a combo deck, so they always have the chance to goldfish you. However, if they don’t turn 1 kill you, then you have a shot. Ravager is golden here because it lets you sacrifice your creatures at instant speed to remove their Bridges. We're also playing graveyard hate in the sb.


Slivers: favorable
Your creatures are bigger, and Crystalline is not great when the opponent has zero targeting spells. Just watch out for Winged sliver. You're the aggro deck here. Watch out for Harmonics post SB too.


Survival: slightly favorable to slightly unfavorable
There are a billion survival builds. They could play Pernicious Deed, Elves, FEB and all kind of stuff. Bring in Needles and Krosan grip and you should be doing good.


UGb Threshold: favorable
They have a poor aggro matchup, especially against those who are not playing all their spells in the 1cc and 2cc slots. They also don't have huge SB cards against us, so just beat down with your big dudes.


UGw Threshold: slightly favorable
Fairly similar to UGb, except they have a few stronger tools in StP and often an E-Tutor toolbox in the main. Some are running Trygon Predator as well. Bomb them.


Team America: favorable
Their mana denial is powerful against the format, but our deck does a fabulous job of playing through the hate. Tombstalker is a hard hitter, but we are much more likely to have a fatty on the table.


UGr Canadian Thresh: slightly favorable
Like other Thresh lists, they run the standard agro-control goodstuff, and they are susceptible to our general strategy. UGr differs in its ability to convert from the control to agro role more effectively than other variants (burn is versatile). Builds running both Swans and Trygon Predator have a fair shot as they have good control and a combo to finish.


Landstill: even to favorable
There are a lot of versions of this archetype. Deed and Disk are very potent, and in combination with top cards from each color, landstill decks designed to beat agro will have a fair chance at winning. Landstill decks that try to abuse CB/Top or emphasize permission become favorable as their stack control is less relevant against us.


MUC: slightly favorable to favorable
Permanent-MUC and Draw/Go have weak matches against us. They will overemphasize the power of B2B against us, and that will cost them. Artifact board control components are their only true means to defeat us. You must learn to play against shackles; your decisions will change dramatically with that card, but it is hardly unstoppable. Powder Keg is a pain, but it is nothing compared to Disk.


Merfolk: slightly unfavorable to even
They are an aggro-control deck with heavy emphasis on creatures. They are very consistent, and they have a solid draw engine. Builds designed with answering combo in mind won’t be as problematic, but if you are playing Affinity (which is an anticipation of a lack of combo), then chances are the merfolk player will also be building in the same way. They usually have some relevant sideboard cards like Annul too. If they are using Null rods, then you can be in a lot of trouble. For those who run them, Sowers and shackles puts us in the danger zone even more. We do have larger creatures though, so it is winnable.


ITF: slightly favorable
The deck has both a high skill requirement and it is a CB/Top based (which puts them at a disadvantage against good affinity players), but it has both relevant removal and a good clock (for a control deck). Their card quality easily converts into raw card advantage, and their engines are formidable if given the time to abuse them. They are still at a disadvantage against an explosive aggro-combo deck that can play around removal and permission with a very consistent clock. K-Grip and Needle, like in all our control matches, are exceptionally powerful against them, while they have little to side against us.


White Stax: even to slightly favorable.
Trinisphere in general sucks for us. It owns our affinity factor. It doesn’t make this match unwinnable, just very difficult if they drop it first turn. Normal Armageddon stax is actually favorable for us, but tweaked variants can easily give us serious problems. Dutch stacks has a stronger game with 4x Moat and 4x Humility to completely hardlock us.


Pox: slightly favorable
We can deal with their mana denial, but their pox effects wreak havoc on our board at large. It can slow us many turns. Luckily, they lack a serious clock, and we can chain bomb them until one sticks. Some variants can hardlock us, while others can overemphasize creature control; both of which are bad for us. However, these are both unlikely variants and generally considered subpar against the rest of the field.


MWC/Quinn: unfavorable
It depends on the build. The more they concentrate on answering combo, the better your odds. It is possible but unlikely to win before they can lock you out game 1, and game 2 becomes better as our sideboard is more relevant. If they are using Painter/Servant, then it means we can’t slow roll.


Faerie Stompy: even
It really depends on their draw and who goes first. Their deck can burst out of the gates, shut down your hand, and win in a few turns. If the game goes past turn 5, then you are likely to win. I consider their mulligan requirements to follow combo/prison like strategies, and as such, expect that they will have hands that you aren’t going to beat, and likewise, expect they’ll be drawing hands that just don’t have what it takes to beat you.


Imperial Painter: unfavorable
While Blood Moon isn’t going to kill us at all, it does slow us down. They have a solid combo and some decent control features. Their sideboard is badnews too. Shattering Spree + Trinisphere in a combo deck gives them a serious advantage.


Closing Comments:

Our bombiness, resilience to mana denial, and abuse of Vial gives us a serious advantage against current control and disruption strategies. Most of these decks could easily be modified to shut Affinity out with powerful hate cards, but they currently don’t. Our matchups against control and agro-control decks are favorable because they aren’t preparing for us.

Vial Affinity is an aggro deck first and a combo deck second.

The strength of an aggro deck in Legacy is that it can play so many raw threats in the deck. Few decks can afford to play 20-30 creatures in it, and even fewer can play such synergistic ones that build each other up. It is difficult to answer that many creatures. There are not many control and aggro-control decks that can honestly answer us unless they are sideboarding specifically for the deck (Energy Flux, etc.).

This deck drops raw power on the table. It has a unique ramp, excellent fatties, and often combos into strong creature-based damage positions. A single FoW doesn't destroy a hand of Affinity, or even timewalk our opponent very much. The deck is fast, but also resilient against 1 for 1 control cards, and it bombs the opponent.





peace,
4eak

[Barsoom]

First Comment!!

Wow, this is one if not the best Primer ever.

It takes time to read all, but i can say that's an enjoyable and interesting reading.

[kicks_422]

Great primer, guys. Great job. I've picked the deck up just a couple of months ago, and if this primer were around back then, I wouldn't have spent too much time trying to learn everything about the deck.

And, on Springleaf Drum:


THIS CARD DOES NOT REPLACE AETHER VIAL; IT COMPLEMENTS AETHER VIAL.

I just had to stress that out. Very, very important, as most players think Vial is too slow and just replace it with Drum.

[KillemallCFH]

I didn't really get a chance to read the whole primer yet, but from what I have read, it looks pretty good. One thing I think you should've mentioned though.
Blinkmoth Nexus— Before SoA, I believe it was an auto 3x. After SoA, I've not had as good of results when I use the card. The problem with Nexus is that he is both colorless and not a natural artifact. MoE demands natural artifact lands or color smoothing. Nexus does not add affinity factor unless you are tapping it to itself, and even then, it only matters on the 2nd affinity spell casted in a turn (which is unlikely).

We don’t require the flying from this card, we do require our lands to be artifacts or color smoothers though.One of the best parts about Blinkmoth Nexus right now is its ability to win through a Standstill. Whether or it is needed or if your matchup is already positive without enough is another subject for debate. Still, you should at least make mention of its use as a tool against Standstill.

[4eak]

@ KillemallCFH

I think it is important to recognize that decks playing Standstill will be playing wastelands and specifically man-lands that are bigger and badder than Blinkmoth. In theory Blinkmoth might seem like a solid card against Standstill decks, but in practice you'll find it doesn't matter much. You will almost always lose the race under standstill, so it becomes a non-issue when you are forced to break it early anyways. Luckily, you shouldn't see too many Standstills because you empty your hand fast enough that they must stabilize before they could play the card. You hope to be winning before they stabilize.

The real exception to the standstill race is Aether Vial. But, you are winning because of Vial, not because of Blinkmoth.




peace,
4eak

[GreenOne]

Well done. This is one of the best primers on The Source, and hopefully this will act as an answer for all the people that once in a while asks things like "why vial is in the deck? Drum is better!".
In retrospect, I was one of those people..

Thanks for citing me as co-author, but in fact I only did part of the Matchup Analyses. You're the real deal :wink:

[Pltnmngl]

Good stuff. This makes for a grand new beginning for Affinity. I'm testing your build right now.

Has anyone playtested anything from Conflux? Or is it all just garbage?

[Slayer001]

great primer, indeed one of the bests on the source

I have one question

Dragon Stompy: favorable
If you play first then Chalice@1 is not going to wreck you, you're going to laugh at Blood Moon effects (you play colorless spells and have 3 drums and 3 vials for the coloured ones), and many of your creatures are bigger than theirs. Trinisphere can make you cry though. If the opponent is attacking with a Jitte-wearing dude remember to block and sacrifice the blocker to ravager, so they're not putting counters on Jitte. Postside you got Krosan Grips and they are siding Spree/Pyrokinesis

you mean before dmg on the stack sack the blocker to ravager so that no combat dmg is done ?

[Arsenal]

It's good to be mindful of the past, so:

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8147

Thanks for the very well-organized primer!

This was one of the very first things 4eak had in his initial OP.

I'm not a fan of Affinity in Legacy, but 4eak's primer has given me a clear insight as to what makes Affinity tick, what situations to be mindful of, etc. Good job.

[Eatatjoes]

Very informative read, the old affinity forum was severely outdated. Hopefully this new updated list and primer, will put all random peoples card choices and sub-optimal lists to rest. Good job 4eak

[Nessaja]

you mean before dmg on the stack sack the blocker to ravager so that no combat dmg is done ?

No, you put the damage on the stack, then in response you sacrifice your creature -> combat damage on your creature fizzles.

Your way has some disadvantages, one glaring one would be when the opposing creature has trample as the full damage will just be trampled through where-as that isn't the case when you sac after combat damage.

Another probably bigger disadvantage is that if you don't put the combat damage on the stack you won't be killing their creature either.

[b4r0n]

No, you put the damage on the stack, then in response you sacrifice your creature -> combat damage on your creature fizzles.

Your way has some disadvantages, one glaring one would be when the opposing creature has trample as the full damage will just be trampled through where-as that isn't the case when you sac after combat damage.

Another probably bigger disadvantage is that if you don't put the combat damage on the stack you won't be killing their creature either.

He's talking about Umezawa's Jitte, which triggers on combat damage. To prevent them from getting counters on their Jitte, you can declare a blocker and sacrifice it before damage. No damage is dealt to you or your creature, so their Jitte gets no counters.

[Slayer001]

Yes, thats what I mean but I think you can do it both ways if you are likely to kill the jitte wearer you can best do it after dmg on stack

[Bardo]

Wow, excellent work. I believe this is, hands down, the best primer this site has ever seen (certainly better than anything I've written for MTS). The strategy, card choices and weaknesses sections were insightful, accurate and honest. The match-up section was fair (No "This deck beats everything" attitude.) I appreciate that. :)

Anyway, really, really good stuff that wisely avoids "Cool Things" territory (FoW, etc.). I had some questions I was going to ask ("Where's Canonist?"), but you did a good job answering them proactively.

As for your list, it looks as good as it's going to get.

[Pltnmngl]

So I guess we get nothing in Conflux?

[Eatatjoes]

So I guess we get nothing in Conflux?

Nada

Some people seem to think that esperzoa should be tested. He would make the deck to top heavy, and he would be competing with MoE slot, when master is a monster. No new cards from conflux, everything is to weak, and doesnt click with the rest of the deck.

[raharu]

Wow, excellent work. I believe this is, hands down, the best primer this site has ever seen (certainly better than anything I've written for MTS). The strategy, card choices and weaknesses sections were insightful, accurate and honest. The match-up section was fair (No "This deck beats everything" attitude.) I appreciate that. :)

Anyway, really, really good stuff that wisely avoids "Cool Things" territory (FoW, etc.). I had some questions I was going to ask ("Where's Canonist?"), but you did a good job answering them proactively.

As for your list, it looks as good as it's going to get.
So we're in agreement that the list had 0% wiggle room and doesn't need to be discussed right now? Could we... iDunno, sticky it so it won't get lost in the depths of page 6? The deck is obviously relevant to the meta, but there isn't much posting to do in the thread... Weird situation here.

[Pltnmngl]

I wouldn't say zero wiggle room. Even meta's that are perfect for Affinity may need to make a slight adjustment here and there. Let's just say 0-5%.

[rleader]

I think the innovations that could be made involve the use of cantrips and cyclers: streetwraith and cards like aphotic and/or crimson wisps (which is now out of color, unfortunately). Giving a MoE or Enforcer fear or haste (and drawing a card) changes the clock substantially.

I don't think anyone actually plays Affinity in legacy enough against quality enough opponents to do the testing needed to see what numbers of what are appropriate (if any). I thought about trying that (and writing up the experience) next time I see my brother, but he just shipped off for officer candidate school so it'll be a while.

[raharu]

I think the innovations that could be made involve the use of cantrips and cyclers: streetwraith and cards like aphotic and/or crimson wisps (which is now out of color, unfortunately). Giving a MoE or Enforcer fear or haste (and drawing a card) changes the clock substantially.

I don't think anyone actually plays Affinity in legacy enough against quality enough opponents to do the testing needed to see what numbers of what are appropriate (if any). I thought about trying that (and writing up the experience) next time I see my brother, but he just shipped off for officer candidate school so it'll be a while.
Perhaps... The wisps are interesting thoughts, but they take threats out of the deck, and the inevitability of drawing bomb after bomb after bomb is what makes the deck tick... Perhaps.

[rleader]

I wouldn't say threats: you'd reduce the land count and maybe workers and frogmites. The fact that you'd be playing with 56 cards (after streetwraith) and would see more of your deck (with cantrips) would up your "bomb" density (as wisps can be blown on ornithopters or enemy creatures if necessary if you don't have a relevant play with them). The only real drawback -- once you find the optimum tuning -- is that you'd make the deck more succeptible to chalice/counterbalance.

It's not really my idea alone (well, aphotic wisps are, afaik), as some ext players have tried reducing the deck size with wraith/chromatic sphere/chromatic star/mishra's bauble so only bombs are left (although those would combo more nicely with Disciple, I think that's too mana intensive -- without sculpter anyway -- and the baubles are just too slow).

[Zappa]

Very nice primer. I like how detailed and in depth it is. The reasoning behind the whole Ravager and Master of Etherium is so detailed and clear.

[Nessaja]

He's talking about Umezawa's Jitte, which triggers on combat damage. To prevent them from getting counters on their Jitte, you can declare a blocker and sacrifice it before damage. No damage is dealt to you or your creature, so their Jitte gets no counters.

I was fully aware what he was talking about and saccing after the combat damage is put on the stack is pretty much the best course of action to take in all scenario's, as I explained in my post. It totally avoids Jitte as the combat damage fizzles.

[Bongo]

UGr Canadian Thresh: slightly favorable
Like other Thresh lists, they run the standard agro-control goodstuff, and they are susceptible to our general strategy. UGr differs in its ability to convert from the control to agro role more effectively than other variants (burn is versatile). Builds running both Swans and Trygon Predator have a fair shot as they have good control and a combo to finish.


Having played this quite a few times, I disagree - this is not favorable.
Spell Snare is a pain, and if they manage to counter your Master, you're in pretty bad shape. Fire/Ice is also nasty, taking out Disciple and Worker simultaneously or tapping a Plated guy for instance. Daze is also surprisingly good, since Affinity wants to tap out in the early turns to be most effective, and Daze punishes that. Waiting to play aroud Daze or other tricks is in the Thresh players best interest, since you give them time to sculpt their hand.

Versions maindecking Trygon Predator are even harder. Post-board, Trygon/Grudge/Explosives/Grip come in, while our sideboard options are limited.

[overseer1234]

Never had problems beating Threshold with affinity myself (played it since the beginning:cool: ) .

I do have a lot of trouble with decks running Perniscious Deed :cry: or Engineered Explosives :frown: like The Rock, ITF, and Terrageddon (which is pretty popular in the Dutch and Belgian metagame) since deed is like a 1-sided obliterate against us :cry: . So game 1 against ITF I hardly call it favorable :rolleyes: , needle on deed buy's us time, but EE isn't that much better for us, and resolving 1 needle's isn't really realistic...:frown:

[Mantis]

Why no Goblin Welder? Only argument I could see is that it doesn't fit the aggressive theme enough, but it does so many things in return. Looking at the list I could see him replacing Disciple of the Vault with ease. That said, I have never played Affinity so I might be totally off here.

[Eatatjoes]

Why no Goblin Welder? Only argument I could see is that it doesn't fit the aggressive theme enough, but it does so many things in return. Looking at the list I could see him replacing Disciple of the Vault with ease. That said, I have never played Affinity so I might be totally off here.

Like you said, you've never played the deck, so why would you suggest things for decks that you dont even know anything about. Welder is a combo card. Disciple is the best card in affinity.

[Mantis]

Like you said, you've never played the deck, so why would you suggest things for decks that you dont even know anything about. Welder is a combo card. Disciple is the best card in affinity.
Because I understand the principles of this game and can therefore make suggestions without having tested them. I never claimed Welder is a must in this deck but it was merely a suggestion.


I made the suggestion of Welder based on my T1 experience where Welder is insane in Workshop Aggro. It serves to recur dead or countered beaters exchanging them with Moxen (and in this case artifact lands/Ornitopters). It also messes with the combat step as you can put the dmg on the stack and then switches your guys. I assumed Welder might serve a similar role in this deck. Basically it should add some resillience to the deck and provide for a better lategame, I mean Disciple looks like garbage in the lategame. I am aware that Welder neuters Colossus and opposing Workshop decks in Vintage and that it doesn't do this in Legacy, so Welder could very well be garbage.

I hope I have now given a more solid explanation for you as I assumed most Sourcers could figure this out by themselfs.


Welder is a combo card.
......... are you serious?

[overseer1234]

I mean Disciple looks like garbage in the lategame.
This just proves you don't know how the deck works, late game disciple with a ravager out is really is GG for the opponent (vialing it in in response to a deed activation is just living the dream :D).

[4eak]

@ Mantis


Why no Goblin Welder? Only argument I could see is that it doesn't fit the aggressive theme enough, but it does so many things in return. Looking at the list I could see him replacing Disciple of the Vault with ease. That said, I have never played Affinity so I might be totally off here.

You have a good question about Welder.

You might think that given all the Legacy decks, Affinity would be the most likely to make use of the card because Affinity doesn't require Welder in order to be truly functional (which is Welder's largest problem in Legacy deckbuilding), meaning the removal faced by Welder wouldn't be as devastating to the deck itself.

Goblin Welder is definitely a great card, but it doesn't replace anything effectively in Affinity.


Basically it should add some resillience to the deck and provide for a better lategame

Welder would add resilience, but not enough. His main problems:


He is in the wrong color (and he isn't powerful enough to cause us to switch)
He doesn't affect the board immediately because of summoning sickness.
You must have something worthwhile in the graveyard to begin with.
He doesn't have large enough targets to make him powerful enough outside the context of combat tricks and dodging removal. He needs more raw power to work with (like Vintage Workshop decks).


Welder is too conditional and slow. His real impact comes too late in the game for a true aggro deck.


I mean Disciple looks like garbage in the lategame.

Disciple is one of the best late game cards in Affinity. I hope I made this clear in the primer.

As for Welder vs. Disciple:

Disciple has immediate effect and punishes removal directly. He is a bluffable card, and he owns board sweeping (which is one of Affinity's largest problems). He wins on the stack, and his Synergy with Ravager is powerful. The fact he deals "lifeloss" instead of normal combat damage does come up often enough.

Disciple is both defensively and offensively a stronger card for the deck. Disciple helps us not to lose and gives us free tempo by forcing control players to play differently, and he also combos with ravager for auto-wins. Disciple is proactive disruption that has impact at the appropriate stage in the game for an aggro deck, while Welder is both reactive and offers resilience at too late a stage of the game, often only working when you are unlikely to come back and win anyways.





peace,
4eak

[Mantis]

@4eak, wow a civil response. I didn't think that was possible in this thread. Your response sounds completely logical and I have to agree with you.


This just proves you don't know how the deck works, late game disciple with a ravager out is really is GG for the opponent (vialing it in in response to a deed activation is just living the dream :D).
Okay, I meant in a war of attrition where both players are in topdeck mode Disciple looks like garbage. I'm not sure how often that comes up though. Should have made that more clear.

[overseer1234]

Okay, I meant in a war of attrition where both players are in topdeck mode Disciple looks like garbage. I'm not sure how often that comes up though. Should have made that more clear.

Hey don't sweat it, the best way to learn how a deck works is to play it so sleeve it up and find out.

Also if welder does prove to be better by your testing, be sure to give us feedback.

P.s.: sorry if what I said sounded offending, I really had no intention of doing such.

[Rinello]

why no etherium sculptor?
Seems good to me, can quicken our race very soon..
I play affinity with ancient tomb 4x, no enforcer or frogmite, 2 jitte and 1 o-naginata (trample = win) and I found it very good!

Can you please make a comment about him? I think he deserves some testing :)

Also: never tried trinket mage? Any result?

Thanks.

[rufus]

The cards I've found myself wondering about are:

Jeweled Amulet & Paradise Mantle - Basically these are both potential alternatives to Springleaf Drum with different properties.

Transmute Artifact - This is clearly a weak card b/c the deck doesn't currently run any bombs, but the potential synergy with Affinity cards is obvious as it can turn into Tinker jr.

[4eak]

@ Rinello


why no etherium sculptor? ... Can you please make a comment about him?

Sculptor was covered in the primer. Go read it.


Also: never tried trinket mage? Any result?

Also covered in the primer.


@ rufus


Jeweled Amulet & Paradise Mantle - Basically these are both potential alternatives to Springleaf Drum with different properties

They are weaker cards which are completely outclassed by Drum.

The Amulet isn't even mana acceleration. It can only be tapped for mana every other turn, and it can't be tapped for mana the turn it comes into play, and each use beyond the first is actually mana inefficient. The lack of actual tempo/mana acceleration and its mana inefficiency kill the card. If you need color smoothing, play rainbow lands or drum.

Paradise Mantle, at best, breaks even in mana efficiency with Drum, and it can be played for free just for the artifact factor. At any point you would tap a second creature to produce mana, which happens all the time, Drum becomes more efficient than Paradise Mantle. Additionally, removal can hit creatures targeted to be equipped, preventing you from gaining a color; drum always produces the mana, regardless of removal.


Transmute Artifact - This is clearly a weak card b/c the deck doesn't currently run any bombs, but the potential synergy with Affinity cards is obvious as it can turn into Tinker jr.

I love the card (actually, playing a casual deck right now that uses it), but it doesn't have a place in the deck.

The double blue makes the card almost unplayable.

TinkerJr. is card disadvantage, and it needs a target so powerful to the current gamestate that the CDisadvantage is worth it. Affinity doesn't have a bomb like that.




peace,
4eak

[b4r0n]

4eak: Could you elaborate a little bit more on why you think Crypt is better than Relic is this deck? Is it because you're worried about having to keep mana open for Relic?

[4eak]

@ b4r0n


4eak: Could you elaborate a little bit more on why you think Crypt is better than Relic is this deck? Is it because you're worried about having to keep mana open for Relic?

I'm not just worried about keeping the mana open (which is a tempo loss in itself), but I'm worried about the mana curve in general. Relic costs 2 mana (over separate turns if you want) to make it useful, and that is a chunk of mana for this deck.

Against decks like Ichorid, I need my GY hate up on turn 1 (which only crypt can do). Against other decks, I need the mana efficiency to maximize my aggression and I need the free-ness of Crypt to add artifact factor in the early game. Free is better than 2 mana as the mana efficiency of Crypt limits the damage to the aggressive nature of the deck, while still providing the same benefit (hitting the opponent's GY).

Relic is a strong card, and in any deck that seeks a longer more controlled game, or is scared of Goyf/Vore, Relic is just as viable (if not better) an option as Crypt. But, these are not Affinity's problems or strategies. Affinity can't afford the mana just to draw the card, it isn't looking for a long term game (so it doesn't care about top decking crypt vs. relic, nor does it emphasize the strength of relic's cantrip effect), and it doesn't care if it wipes its own GY most of the time.

Remember: we aren't afraid of Goyf (or Terravore). We tower over other creatures. We are afraid of combo-esque GY tricks though, and almost all of those circumstances are reliant upon the opponent's GY alone--making crypt just as functional as Relic. The mana just isn't worth it.





peace,
4eak

[Elfrago]

Could you give us a few more insights on sideboarding? What do you usually side out?

[4eak]

@ Elfrago


Could you give us a few more insights on sideboarding? What do you usually side out?

I look at choosing what to side out as this question:

"what are the least important cards in the main against my opponent?"

(I know, I'm stating the obvious.)

The primer shows a decent structure of how I value each card (I tried to show the most valuable at the top, descending to the least valuable). Perhaps I should say that more explicitly in the primer. The generic answer is at the bottom of that list. Ornithopter, Myr Enforcer, Workers, and sometimes Frogmites are the cards I side out. It depends on the match and how many cards I need to side in. Examples:

If I'm playing against certain control decks, Ornithopters flying is less valuable, and so I'm often inclined to remove them for gamebreakers like Krosan Grip.

If I'm facing Deed, then I never take out Myr Enforcers.

I have dropped 1-2 MoE against copious amounts of mana denial, but I'm not convinced that is the correct play. If I had a 4th Vial in the main, I certainly wouldn't do this.

If I'm only siding Pithing Needles, it often substitutes for the Workers.




peace,
4eak

[GreenOne]

Tormod vs Relic thing

Relic is actually the better card in many other non-affinity decks, so I wanted to give it a shot.

I don't think our creatures are THAT bigger than an average tarmogoyf (which is, usually a 4/5 or 5/6 because of our artifacts). Our threats that trump goyf are Cranial Plating, MoE, a Ravager that eated 5 artifacts and a Enforcer with 1/2 modular counters.

What I found in my testing is that relic is better vs Aggro-Loam and Goyf/Tombstalker decks, where crypt is better against Combo and Ichorid.

I'm currently opting for a 2/2 split, that can be actually better against Ichorid's needles.

The 1/2 mana is quite costy for the deck, but often is worth it for the ability of constantly hitting the graveyard, making it impossible to reach 5-6 cards for TS, and making Loam much less powerful. The "draw a card, kill a Goyf/Vore" ability is nice too, cause 1 out of 3 times that card is a bomb (Ravager, Disciple, MoE, Plating).

When we're siding in graveyard hate against something that is not Ichorid or Cephalid Breakfast, there's a lot of probability that is some sort of control or Aggrocontrol deck. Since we are post-SB, we shouldn't expect the game to last 4 turns, it will probably last more. The more the game progresses, the higher are the probabilities of Relic being the better card.

One thing that I don't like i Relic is that it conflicts with Chalice@1, which we (or the opponent) might play.

I guess that in the end, the graveyard hate of choice depends on the metagame, as always.


By the way, I do think that the list published on the primer IS the current list for affinity decks, with maybe just some minor tweaks (1-3 slots) to talk about.

I'm currently running that list with +1 Tree of Tales -1 Rainbow Land (but still not sure about this) and -1 Enforcer, +1 Vial (in a heavy Counter meta, vial becomes a threat on its own).

[b4r0n]

I don't think our creatures are THAT bigger than an average tarmogoyf (which is, usually a 4/5 or 5/6 because of our artifacts). Our threats that trump goyf are Cranial Plating, MoE, a Ravager that eated 5 artifacts and a Enforcer with 1/2 modular counters.

What I found in my testing is that relic is better vs Aggro-Loam and Goyf/Tombstalker decks, where crypt is better against Combo and Ichorid.

Yeah, this is basically what I was thinking. And since the combo matchup is practically unwinnable anyways (as the primer clearly emphasizes), it seems to make more sense to focus on wrecking Goyfs. Against those decks, Relic makes all your creatures unblockable (blocking with Goyf against an active Relic seems pretty dumb) and/or slows down their clock considerably. It's yet another bomb that needs to be answered by your opponent, otherwise you'll win.

4eak, you do make a good point about its cost, and I can't really argue against that. I just think that it's worth consideration alongside Crypt as a sideboard staple, due to how much it swings some matchups (namely, most decks running any green).

[4eak]

Crypt's GY effect is just as powerful as Relic's in these cases:


Goose
Ichorid
IGG
Loam
Crucible of Worlds
Tombstalker
Mystic Enforcer
Intuition Engines -- Witness/Academy Ruins/Volrath's Stronghold/Gigapede/etc.
(and a ton others, Replenish, Squee, Lavamancer, Therapy, etc.)

Relic's GY effect is stronger than Crypt's in these cases:


Goyf
Terravore
Reanimate

In most cases, you're paying 2 mana to draw 1 card and shrink Goyfs even further than Crypt. That mana is a heavy price for this deck; I often set myself back a whole turn playing Relic instead of Crypt, rarely to set my opponent back a whole turn or more where Crypt wouldn't.

On the other hand, playing Crypt means that 2 mana is spent playing the aggro role, without much difference in effect from Relic. I'm more interested in mana efficiency than a cantrip for an aggro deck. If relic cost 0 to put into play, and 1 to activate, then it would be different. I'm desperate to draw cards, but not for the cost of 2 mana.

Yes, the longer a match goes, the less Affinity is concerned with mana inefficiency, and the more concerned the deck will be about the draw effect of Relic. But, the longer a match goes, the more likely Affinity is going to lose anyways. That is the point of the aggro deck--win the game while mana efficiency actually matters. I want to sideboard cards that enable me to continue winning early, and Crypt's mana efficiency is very important factor.

In my experience, Goyf alone is not a good enough reason to play Relic over Crypt for this deck. My GY usually doesn't many cards in it to grow a Goyf, and a good portion of the matches where I play against Goyf, I'd rather have a creature than GY hate in the first place. Cranial Plating, Ravager, MoE, and Vial all improve creatures by large margins (while they don't improve GY hate), and usually playing the aggro role with a swarm has performed better than slowing the clock down to slow their Goyf down.

Aggro-Loam is the only match where I believe Relic is hands down stronger than Crypt for Affinity. If you face a lot aggro-loam, then clearly Relic is a better choice. For most metagames, I think Crypt is better.

Relic isn't a bad card, I just don't consider it a staple in Affinity. Admittedly, there isn't a substantial difference between Relic and Crypt--they very similar cards in the broad scheme of things.

I think GreenOne is correct. This is a metagame specific question. The primer had to offer some generalized advice, so that is why I phrased it like I did. Outside of Aggro-Loam, it takes a lot more thought and knowledge about a specific metagame to choose Relic over Crypt. I'm not saying there aren't cases where you should choose Relic over Crypt, but for most players and metagames, Crypt is a better call in general.

I also have to admit that GreenOne's 2/2 split is intriguing. The needle concern has come up a few times.




peace,
4eak

[GreenOne]

Crypt's GY effect is just as powerful as Relic's in these cases:


Goose
Ichorid
IGG
Loam
Crucible of Worlds
Tombstalker
Mystic Enforcer
Intuition Engines -- Witness/Academy Ruins/Volrath's Stronghold/Gigapede/etc.
(and a ton others, Replenish, Squee, Lavamancer, Therapy, etc.)


I agree on anything but this, each card has pros and cons, and rarely are on par:

Here's my list:
- Goose: Relic continuous effect of removing one card a turn is better in the long run, where the opponent could rech threshold again. Crypt is better in the first 3 turns. Keep in mind that every deck packing Goose is packing Goyf too. I'd say Relic is better here.
- Ichorid: the split might be better for opposing Needle. Relic is better against the draw-discard-dredge plan (that sucks against us anyway), and worse against everything else. Crypt is definetly better unless the opponent sided in chalices for some reason.
- IGG: Matchups where IGG is involved need our speed, and CA is really nothing we can take advantage on. It probably won't matter in the matchup, but Crypt is better.
- Loam: the continuous effect of relic shrinks their engine and the sacrifice ability of relic kills 1/3 of their creatures and makes 0/1s of another 1/3. Relic is plain better.
- Crucible of Worlds: the continuous effect of relic is definetly better: they can't any more recur fetches and manlands and city of traitors for the rest of the game. Crypt might be better against 'Geddon, but overall Relic is better.
- Tombstalker: Decks playing TS are usually putting a good amount of cards in graveyard per turn. Things like fetches, discard, cantrips, free countermagic and the like are filling the graveyard fast, so it's easier to recover after a crypt. Their disruptive strategy makes the game goes longer, enphasizing (sp?) the role of CA in the matchup. A good number of TS decks are packing goyf too. Relic is better here.
- Mystic Enforcer: same as goyf, but comes down much later. Getting to 4 lands is not as easy as it seems in a deck packing 18, so this comes down on turn 5-6 or even later. The late game favors Relic as does the fact that every deck packing Enforcer is packing goyf, but at this stage of the game their hand is so depleted they're going to wait a bit to rebuild threshold. So I guess relic is slightly better.
- Intuition: Opponent is usually playing intuition in our end step, so he's going to take advantage of the engine at least one turn if we have a relic and we're tapped out. Crypt is better.
- Other stuff: this includes Therapy, Replenish, Witness, Lavamancer, Gigapede, Eternal Dragon. The continuus depleting of the graveyard of Relic is making a good job. the opponent has a reduced amount of choice with witness, is probably going to lose the Eternal Dragon/Gigapede if he doesn't take it back early, lavamancer has a lot less food, therapy might be the only card in the grave. In this cases Relic is better. In all other cases the cards are on par. Crypt might be better when the games last less, that means against Lavamancer (but are we seriously siding crypts against it? And if so, aren't we siding grave hate because this deck is packing goyf/grunts too?), and Relic whan the game goes longer. I'd say Relic is better here. Replenish is a different thing: we want to be fast against Enchantress, but crypt doesn't work if the opponent has a Confinament in play. Enchantress basically wins against us with Confinament, so Replenish in this case might help mantaining it, but it's a narrow case. I'd say crypt is better anyway against Replenish.

[Pltnmngl]

Even though relic is better on it's own against most of those decks doesn't mean it works best with affinity, which is the point.

[GreenOne]

Even though relic is better on it's own against most of those decks doesn't mean it works best with affinity, which is the point.
You're right.
It strongly depends on the lenght of the game IMO. Since there is literally no deck that lets us goldfish, we're supposed to reach turn 6, where Relic is overall better: mana concern doesn't apply anymore, drawing multiples is welcome, and the additional abilities (remove a card a turn and draw a card) are far superior.

[Nazgath]

Etherium Sculptor— The card is expensive for what you get in aggro-combo affinity. It does too little too late. I like the card, but it just doesn't add enough to the deck for the slot. This deck already has better ways to cheat mana at this point. The sculptor is very nice in affinity decks that play, well...fewer affinity cards, weaker mana-bases, and higher mana-curves. That card really belongs in aggro-control affinity decks, but it has no place in Vial Affinity.

I beg to differ. I'm just theorycrafting here, but hear* me out here:



CardName: Etherium Sculptor
Cost: 1U
Type: Artifact Creature - Vedalken Artificer
Pow/Tgh: 1/2
Rules Text: Artifact spells you play cost 1 less to play.

Cards which look like they benefit from Etherium Sculptor's ability:

Cranial Plating
Master of Etherium
Myr Enforcer


Now let's compare casting him to that of Frogmite, which has a very similar body...

Cranial Plating:
Frogmite is better because the 2 mana spent on Sculptor could have been used for Cranial instead.


Master of Etherium:
Frogmite must tip his hat to Sculptor and make his graceful exit.


Myr Enforcer:
I believe Sculptor takes the crown for this one as well.


Aether Vial:
Yes, I know this is a minor point but Sculptor can actually be vialled in when need arise (for instance you're stuck on 1 mana with a Cranial Plating in hand).


I think everyone can agree that those are at least 8 cardslots which would benefit from Sculptor's inclusion.


Dr. Etherium Sculptor, would you please step forward for the verdict.

There is the issue of redundancy with you, just like with Aether Vial or Springleaf Drum.
You are slightly more demanding on the mana payroll side.
On the other hand, you have shown motivation and dedication to contribute to the greater good.
That is why I would suggest replacing 2 Frogmites with Etherium Sculptors. *murmurs rising followed by a shrill bonejarring shriek*
ORDER IN THE COURT! ORDER. IN THE. COURT! One more such outburst, Mr. Frogmite, and there shall be consequences!

Dismissed.


*see what I did there? Yes I'm bored :/

[Nazgath]

Also, thanks a bunch for the awesome primer!

[4eak]

@ Nazgath


I beg to differ. I'm just theorycrafting here, but hear* me out here:

I think we all know which cards are affected by Sculptor. The problem is that he can only come into play when you already had the mana to cast the cards which would benefit from Sculptor (most of the time), and you were likely sitting in top deck mode or close to it. If you have the 1U to cast Sculptor, then you should already be very close to emptying your hand in the first place.

If Sculptor was a 1cc 1/1 that did the same thing, then his mana acceleration would be playable and more relevant on the turns that mana acceleration really matters.

Sculptor does too little too late.


I would suggest replacing 2 Frogmites with Etherium Sculptors.

Test away. When you open with Sculptor in your hands, ask yourself if you preferred the card was a Frogmite or a Sculptor.




peace,
4eak

[Zappa]

It was mentioned before that a standard sideboard package of:

4 Krosan Grip
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pithing Needle
3 Meta cards

Is a good choice, but my play group consists of alot of aggro decks such as:

White Weenie (Side boarded kataki + Disenchant)
White Weenie (Kithkin creatures)
White Weenie (Knights + Jitte)
Merfolk (U/G that has a sideboarded Trygon Predator)
Black Weenie
Counter Slivers (UWG has Harmonic Sliver)
Goblin Deck With a black splash
Burn (Person that's playing goblins has SBed Shattering Spree)

Combo is not present but control decks are. Packing wraths, damnation, deed, and some white deck packing cataclysm + karakas.

Mono Blue Control
Landstill (U/W)
Landstill (U/G/B grip, deed and damnation)
White deck packing Cataclysm+karakas
B/G/W Deck with lots of regenerators and packs Deed+vindicate

There is no combo for me to worry about, but the precense of hate for it is quite a bit. What would be a suggested sideboard option against these.

Would the card from Mirrodin called Krark-Clan Shaman help against those aggro decks? Atleast sideboard material?

[GreenOne]

@Zappa
You can't do nothing against people siding hate against you. Just change deck if Kataki/Spree/Null Rod/whatever becomes popular.

Against tribal aggro decks I'd say that Shaman is a good choice, both allowing a combo with Disciple an dealing with weenies even if they have a couple lords in table. Sacrificing your Frogmites/Workers to it doesn't seem too costy.

Against the control decks I'd try Thorn of Amethist and/or Winter Orb.
I tested Thorn of Amethist and I'd say is really unsymmetrical with almost 30 creatures, 1 and 2 CC cards, and Thoughtcast (that has affinity).
Winter orb was tested by 4eak and he was good with it, so probably is a good option too.

[Zappa]

I just feel bad if I would avoid playing it coz of hate. Especially after spending all those over time and double shifts to get an all foil version of this deck. I know it's pointless but it just looks so cool :laugh:.

But anyways, I like facing all sort of decks with Affinity regardless of hate or not.

I noticed that you guys are running a 3/3 split between vial and drum along side 18 Lands. Has the vial ever been an issue? I see vial as something you want to see within the first couple of turns, and not later. Shouldn't the card be an auto 4 of? Running less just decreases the chances of it in the opening, and becomes and getting it after a couple turns just seems almost like the reason behind scultor. By the time it comes out, it's a little too late.

[Moczoc]

I'd like to ask you Affinity experts if some of the new cards could find a home in this deck:

Soul's Fire: It's like an expensive Fling but much less risky.

Salvage Slasher: Good with Ravager, replacement for Frogmite?

Viashino Slaughtermaster: Kicks ass with Cranial Plating.

[Zappa]

I'd like to ask you Affinity experts if some of the new cards could find a home in this deck:

Hi, I am not an expert yet but I play this deck all the time now ever since I got into it. But I'll do my best to answer your questions though.


Soul's Fire: It's like an expensive Fling but much less risky.

I suppose you could use it on the old version of affinity that uses Chromatic Star, Fling/Shrapnet and Atog. As a subtitute for the Fling/Shrapnel. But since you're posting about it on Vial Affinity, and the deck has undergone some changes. There's several problems that arises when it comes to that card.

1) It is red, which would mean he have to do some tweaking on our mana base in order to support a card that does not offer much. Much same reason why fling/sharpnel was taken out.

2) It is not an artifact.

3) Casting cost is a bit much. It is just too expensive for the deck.

4) It runs into the same problem as Fling/Shrapnel. There will be SOME games when it would be nice to have, but MOST of the time it won't contribute much and slow you down also. Which is something that Affinity cannot afford to do.


Salvage Slasher: Good with Ravager, replacement for Frogmite?

The problem I see with it is there wouldn't be too many cards in your graveyard. The only time when you'll be having alot of cards in your graveyard to fully utilize this card is when you're already winning.

What if its dropped after a deed? A big creature with such a little defense and no evasion is not something I'll rely on. Disciple is already the card that I want to see wehn I am in a position that I am losing.

The card is too situational. Also running too many colored cards will cause some conflicts on your early plays, and those early turns is what's most important to affinity.


Viashino Slaughtermaster: Kicks ass with Cranial Plating.

Unfortunately it adding him will require tweaking with mana base. He is also not an artifact, and he only has a defense of 1. Looking at his casting cost, I would much rather run Atog, and Atog was pretty much dropped already for vial affinity.


Hopefully the next set (after Conflux) we will have something for us to toy with. :cry:
But if you wanna try out the new blue artifacts they may have some room for blue based affinity.

[Nazgath]

@ 4eak



I think we all know which cards are affected by Sculptor. The problem is that he can only come into play when you already had the mana to cast the cards which would benefit from Sculptor (most of the time), and you were likely sitting in top deck mode or close to it. If you have the 1U to cast Sculptor, then you should already be very close to emptying your hand in the first place.

You're forgetting that this is the Wasteland format. That being the precise reasoning you provided for the inclusion of Darksteel Citadel.
Sure Citadel is more relevant because it ensures early-game 2cc drops, but nonetheless...

Frogmite doesn't require coloured mana, ok, but Sculptor can be vialled in.
The only real advantage I see with Frogmite is that he gets less often fucked by Pernicious Deed & Friends.




Sculptor does too little too late.

In goldfishing, maybe...



Test away. When you open with Sculptor in your hands, ask yourself if you preferred the card was a Frogmite or a Sculptor.

I've tested a bit because it coincided with my interests, but I don't have time for the real deal. However, I can say that I was pleased by Sculptor's performance. I suggest you try him out.

[Kilz88]

@4eak: First off, rediculous primer. SO good. Thanks for putting your time into it. I was about to drop the deck after being too frusterated by all the card options but I feel a lot better about it now. Couple Qs though:

How do you feel about berserk? I have always wanted to try it but I don't own any and don't have a lot of playtest opportunities outside of sanctioned play. I know it would go in the shrapnel blast/fling type spot that has kind of been eliminated from the deck but is it even a possiblity?

Also, I recently traded away my chalices in hopes canonist would be the answer to all my problems but it really isnt. Do you know of a suitable replacement that wont involve me spending the same or more money to re-purchase chalices? I like your suggestions to bring it in non-combo matches. Sure it is pretty good against combo but for my meta the little applications to things like boros/burn are very important. The problem I am faced with now is I am locked into white as my third color because I am playing canonist instead of chalice but there is little to no combo in my meta. This in turn denys me playing krosan grip. Ugh. I am playing disenchant at the moment but...what would you do in my situation if getting chalice was not an option?

Lastly in the MUC analysis, you didnt mention propaganda. I feel I am most scared of that card when playing that match up. Wouldnt that make it a little more unfavorable?

Thanks again for the awesome primer.

[4eak]

@ Nazgath


You're forgetting that this is the Wasteland format. That being the precise reasoning you provided for the inclusion of Darksteel Citadel.
Sure Citadel is more relevant because it ensures early-game 2cc drops, but nonetheless...

Frogmite doesn't require coloured mana, ok, but Sculptor can be vialled in.
The only real advantage I see with Frogmite is that he gets less often fucked by Pernicious Deed & Friends.

I promise I have not forgotten the power of wasteland in Legacy, I hope the primer shows it.

Frogmite has several advantages over Sculptor that you have missed. I ask you read the primer for why we play frogmite. His ability to be played during mana denial and continue to accelerate other cards for free eclipses Sculptor's conditional playability and late effect. Frogmite has much higher synergy with the deck, he is free, and he is a more aggressive creature because of it.


In goldfishing, maybe...

I've tested a bit because it coincided with my interests, but I don't have time for the real deal. However, I can say that I was pleased by Sculptor's performance. I suggest you try him out.

I didn't offer advice without having tested the card first (the previous Affinity thread will also show I've tested the card ). Sculptor's ability does too little too late in my testing, and he doesn't merit the opportunity cost of other cards we already play in the deck.


@ Kilz88


How do you feel about berserk? I have always wanted to try it but I don't own any and don't have a lot of playtest opportunities outside of sanctioned play. I know it would go in the shrapnel blast/fling type spot that has kind of been eliminated from the deck but is it even a possiblity?


I would play Shrapnel Blast and Fling before Berserk. If you are very interested in an explosive card, then try those first.


Also, I recently traded away my chalices in hopes canonist would be the answer to all my problems but it really isnt. Do you know of a suitable replacement that wont involve me spending the same or more money to re-purchase chalices?

Chalice is one of a kind. There isn't a suitable replacement for its effect. I'm sorry, that sucks. Thorn of Amethyst/Sphere of Resistance is probably the closest effect (not even very close, I know), as it would be boarded in against many of the matches where you would board in Chalice.


This in turn denys me playing krosan grip. Ugh. I am playing disenchant at the moment but...what would you do in my situation if getting chalice was not an option?

Which is more important, Split second DE or E-canon?


Lastly in the MUC analysis, you didnt mention propaganda. I feel I am most scared of that card when playing that match up. Wouldnt that make it a little more unfavorable?

Hehe, I didn't mention Propaganda directly. The card is seeing a lot less play in the main, and we have K-Grip in the side. Even with propaganda, Affinity still has the advantage in this matchup.

Propaganda, by itself, is not scary. I'll be happy to pay 2 to swing for 10 with my Plated creature or MoE. Propaganda + B2B is what you scared of facing. Even this isn't awful, especially with a vial in play. Disciple + Ravager wins very easily, and it doesn't require swinging to win.

What MUC must have to win this match:

Artifact board control. You should be most scared of Disk, Shackles, Powder Keg, and EE, in that order.

Shackles and Board clearing win this match. Propaganda and B2B, while they can improve the state of the game, do not win the match. MUC should think twice about keeping a hand that doesn't have Shackles/Board clearing in the opener against affinity.



peace,
4eak

[jimmerz213]

Hey 4eak, great primer. It actually sold me on building this deck and giving it some play time. It seems really fun. One question I had though was about the mana base.

You said the deck often finds itself color starved, but the main list you have only has blue/black requirements outside of colorless. So why not Underground Seas instead of City of Brass? Granted, they dont make green for grips, but thats easier to get from the Trees/drums.
It was just a thought, I havent had the ability to run the deck yet so I may just be missing something obvious but it made sense to me.

Thanks!

[GreenOne]

So why not Underground Seas instead of City of Brass? Granted, they dont make green for grips, but thats easier to get from the Trees/drums.
You're siding in Grips because you do believe you're going to need them in the SB games. That's why you need all the Green sources the deck can offer.
City of brass is usually not a great pain: between our low curve, mana accelerants and affinity cards we're rarely taking more than 2-3 dmg from a City. That's the same amount a deck with fetches will take, so I guess it's acceptable for a 2of.

[Zappa]

I am a strong supporter for the UBg running Tree of Tales in order to make use of Krosan Grip in the sideboard. However, I am not sold yet on counting out white for addition of main decked tutor.

I've been supporting UBg here and as well as giving support for it in wizards website. I have read the primer and I understand that it is a card disadvantage and does not get the card right away, instead waiting for it for 1 more turn.

But the card's versatility seems to be just too useful to ignore:

+ The whole deck consist of entirely artifacts, being able to tutor for pretty much almost any card in the deck.

+ Fetches for a card that pretty much swings the game in your favor:
Arcbound Ravager, Myr Enforcer, Thopter (in case of Moat), singleton Hanna's Custody/Karmic Justice, Cranial Plating, early tutoring for Aether Vial when facing control, as well as being able to find our sideboarded cards game 2 and 3. At worse the card can act as a mana fix.

I like UBg for a addition of Grip, removal that does it's business without worry, and a cantrip that gives us 2 cards right here and now. But when I would face decks packing alot of removal, or when trying to recovered after a blown deed... often times I tend to just draw into something irrelevant like lands and acceleration, or little creatures like worker and frogmite. When I wish I could draw into something that would allow for a comeback.

While I support UBg, I guess I just wanted to know, why to stay away from white. As we have plenty of support or compliment coming from it.

Fetches anything in the deck.
Fetches game swinging cards.
At worse acts as a mana fix.

Offers the following choices when running E. Tutors:
Hanna's Custody (singleton) or Karmic Justice (singleton)

games 2-3 able to tutor for either:
Seal of Cleansing
E. canonist
Pithing Needle
Tormod's Crypt / Relic Progenitus
Chalice of the Void

Please don't jump on my throat for this, but the idea has been haunting me for awhile now. Even with play testing, while I notice the white splash over a course of 100 games is a tad slower given the results. It is close enough to warrant comparison between builds. Hence why the idea has been haunting me. I am just playing it safe and went with green since K grip really is powerful to have, but the options made during matches in face of hate when running white is nice also.

I may be running into one of those... "You can take a good deck, and add a few bad cards... and it will still function as its supposed to and not notice the difference." While I may notice that it is a tad bit slower, it gives us options, chance to fight hate, and chance to come back when things does not look great.

Thank you.

[furt]

@4eak: Great great primer. Seriously good job. These theories are things about affinity I always knew and had somewhat of an understanding of but you found a way to put them into words and you found a way to quantify everything.

I have been thinking of running this deck out in Chicago. I think most players that are not familiar with this format will definetly not see this coming because their little bit of research on the format will draw them towards the "powerful" Goyf or Dreadnaught decks, forgetting about the consistancey of Affinity over about 15 rounds of magic.

With that said, I believe we should start to think about how to best equip the deck to fight a GP level of an event. Its a little bit more difficult to predict such a large metagame but one thing we must keep in mind is the influx of non-legacy players we expect to play against.

When looking at those players we have to think of what will be attractive to those PT and PTQ players that are unfamiliar with legacy.

I believe Goblins will be out in a stronger force than a typical Legacy event. I know here in the Northeast, Goblins is rarely more than a two-of in a 30 man tournament. I also can see lots of non-legacy players looking at the Dreadnaught/Stifle combo as a strong starting point and going from there. Zoo or Goyfsligh decks I can also see people playing because of the popularity of Zoo in Extended, it only gets better in Legacy. One thing for sure is the Legacy decks that are harder to build for non-Legacy players should not be too high on this list. This includes Survival, Enchantress, 43 Land, Imperial Painter, Solidarity. Most PTQ players will most likely not be able to build this decks.

This is of course all speculative, and a conversation starter. I want to play a consistant deck over 15 rds of Magic and the best deck for this I believe could be Affinity so I want to be ready for what could come.

[Zappa]

Hi furt and welcome! Don't forget to give credits to GreenOne also as he is a big contributer to the archtype and very knowledgable too.

The problem with trying to equip this for "GP event" is that the deck is already strong as it is. The only one we can pretty much toy around is the sideboard, which is kinda hard to gear when going in blind. But 4reak's and GreenOne's suggestion for a nice set up of along the lines of:

3-4 Krosan Grip
3-4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pithing Needle
3-4 Meta Card, or for matches that you think you'll come across.

The deck is very consistent indeed, the only worry is when hate starts coming in for the deck. But then again it's not something to be discouraged about anyways.

[furt]

Of course a ton of congrats I'll send GreenOne's way.

I understand that there is little we can change and I definetly do not want to change the maindeck as I see it being the most optimal at this moment. I am just trying to think about those 3-4 meta slots. They are huge. As stated in the primer, a one to two card difference in this deck could be the difference between the most synergestic deck in history and a pile of clunk.

To determine what these slots should be we should discuss what an expected metagame could be and then think about what we need or don't need for the expected matchups.

This isn't as simple as any other Legacy event. This is going to be a large event with lots of diversity. We will see a large influx of non-Legacy accustom players at this event and we need to take this into account.

I like to look at like this.

GP: Chicago is not a Legacy event, rather a high level event that happens to be Legacy format.

[GreenOne]

I don't know if Affinity will be the right choice for GP: Chicago for some reasons:
- There will be combo decks
- People will be coming from other formats, not being legacy-only players. Probably some of them will be pros and some standard/extended players with good knowledge of how affinity works and how to play against it. You can take advantage of Vial/Disciple as cards not present in extended though.

But there will be the great advantage of just little hate. You will find EE and Deed, but that's it IMO.

That said for the meta slots I'd go with something you won't regret to play and is sided against a good number of decks even if its effect is not devastating. There's no reason to play something strong against a single archetype (like Plague for goblins) in a 1000 round event.

So, here is how I'd build the SB:
4 Krosan Grip
4 Needle
3/4 Chalice
4/3 of one of those in order:

1/2 Relic + 2/1 Tormod: You get the surprise factor and the needle reliability. See below for description of the cards.

Relic of Progenitus: some form of graveyard hate. Great against Loam, EE recursion, The Rock's witness/therapy/volrath's, Goyf.dec, Tombstalker.dec, Mongoose. It's slower than crypt but better if the games goes over turn 5-6. Also better as topdeck.

Tormod's Crypt: helps with the affinity factor, so actually accelerates your clock instead of slowing it in some cases. It's faster and doesn't require mana open, but it's one shot and helps less against Goyf and Tombstalker. It's a lot better against Ichorid.

Thorn of Amethyst: Helps against combo, but we're a bye anyway for them, it's good against control and a bit against aggrocontrol. Also very good against Burn. Making them run in manascrew, making Moat/Humility/Wrath a turn later if they have the fifth land, etc is really huge against control. It's also unfairly one sided.

[furt]

It is true that combo will be played at the GP but there are two things to keep in mind.

1. The amount of combo. I have always seen Legacy as a format where combo is vastly vastly underplayed. The combo decks are strong and consistent and I believe Legacy should have more combo in it. This may contradict my point but because it is underplayed, when these non-Legacy players research the format, they will not see any combo dominance and I theorize this will cause them to play the aggro-control decks.

2. The other thing to keep in mind is how big this tournament is. In a GP you can make top 8 with an X-3 record sometimes. I know its not a way to plan a tournament but with the low representaion of combo decks in the format, I'm willing to run the gambit and predict I won't face it more than three times in the tournament.

Running Affinity at a large even is like glass cannon theory. A powerful deck that can be fragile if hate is played or it gets its dreaded pairings. Most recently it had a good showing at GP LA in Extended. Affinity has its unwinnable matchups in Extended, just as in Legacy, specifically TEPS. Two different people were able to navigate through the swiss rounds to end up in the top 8 as well as one to the finals. Pretty good showing for a deck that has defined unwinnable matchups and has a problem with any well preparded deck.

I want to run it at the GP because I feel very few people will actually be well prepared for it. Running Grip in your board does not mean you have a good plan against Affinty. As we read in the primer, the one for one removal never beats you. Yes we fear Deed and to a smaller extent EE, I see not too many rounds of playing against that for the same reason.

This is what makes the deck a decent choice for the GP if you like taking risks.

My latest idea for a sideboard is:

4 Chalice
3 Grip
4 Needle
2 Crypt
2 Relic

The 4th Grip just seems to clog up th draws too much in the post board game. Usually only need to see one to win the game.

[Nazgath]

With Conflux, Affinity has gotten a strong new contender: Esperzoa (http://magiccards.info/cfx/en/25.html). So now, without any ado, here is the list I propose for its inclusion:


// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [8E] City of Brass
4 [MR] Vault of Whispers
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
1 [MR] Tree of Tales
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel

// Creatures
1 [AQ] Ornithopter
4 [DS] Arcbound Worker
4 [MR] Disciple of the Vault
4 [DS] Arcbound Ravager
4 [ALA] Etherium Sculptor
4 [ALA] Master of Etherium
2 [CFX] Esperzoa
2 [MR] Frogmite
4 [MR] Myr Enforcer

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
2 [LRW] Springleaf Drum
4 [FD] Cranial Plating
4 [MR] Thoughtcast

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip

I'm unsure as to whether I should add in a third Esperzoa.
You don't really want to see it in multiples, but on the other hand, it may just save you an artifact or two from Deed.

[Nicholas Gulledge]

With Conflux, Affinity has gotten a strong new contender: Esperzoa (http://magiccards.info/cfx/en/25.html). So now, without any ado, here is the list I propose for its inclusion:

I'm unsure as to whether I should add in a third Esperzoa.
You don't really want to see it in multiples, but on the other hand, it may just save you an artifact or two from Deed.

Esperzoa seems worse than Somber Hoverguard, or Qumulox even, and neither of those guys are likely good enough to be played. Barring some sort of citp shenanigans, i don't think Esperzoa has any real merit in legacy affinity.

[Nazgath]

Esperzoa seems worse than Somber Hoverguard, or Qumulox even, and neither of those guys are likely good enough to be played. Barring some sort of citp shenanigans, i don't think Esperzoa has any real merit in legacy affinity.
Somber Hoverguard, eh? And Qumulox. Seriously? That's plain mind-boggling. Did you even look at my list before replying?
I'm running playsets of Etherium Scultpor and Aether Vial, none of which have synergy with either Hoverguard or Qumulox.
Also, reliably getting UU before turn 5 is impossible. Albeit it comes online a tad later, Esperzoa is Affinity's Sea Drake.

[4eak]

@ Nazgath


With Conflux, Affinity has gotten a strong new contender: Esperzoa. So now, without any ado, here is the list I propose for its inclusion:

I suggest reading the primer.

Your cost curve is much too high for your low land count, and you've actually slowed the deck down by removing Frogmite and Ornithopter to play an expensive and not amazing creature in an aggro-combo deck.

Esperzoa is really only very useful when bouncing artifacts is a synergistic play: see Tanglewire. It belongs in the aggro-control variants of the deck that seek play like Faerie Stompy. It is a stompy card, not an aggro-combo card.

There are much, much better options.






peace,
4eak

[slylie]

With Conflux, Affinity has gotten a strong new contender: Esperzoa (http://magiccards.info/cfx/en/25.html). So now, without any ado, here is the list I propose for its inclusion:

I'm unsure as to whether I should add in a third Esperzoa.
You don't really want to see it in multiples, but on the other hand, it may just save you an artifact or two from Deed.

Etherium Sculptor is really really bad. His Acceleration comes into play when you don't even need it, ornithopter pretty much does the same thing in this deck and its free.

Say you have the hand : Ornithopter, worker, plating, springleaf drum, frogmite, seat, enforcer. Play seat, ornithopter, drum, worker, frogmite. next turn draw land, play plating, drop enforcer, equip orni, swing for 11 points of damage.

Same with sculptor instead of thropter and esperzoa over frogmite: Play seat, tap and play drum. go. next turn, play land, tap and play sculptor, play worker. swing for 0. go. Loose to ad nauseum for 19 life worth of cards.

:cry:

[Nazgath]

I suggest reading the primer.
Please. I suggest reading the thread. You will see that I have done that already.



Etherium Sculptor is really really bad. His Acceleration comes into play when you don't even need it, ornithopter pretty much does the same thing in this deck and its free.

Say you have the hand : Ornithopter, worker, plating, springleaf drum, frogmite, seat, enforcer. Play seat, ornithopter, drum, worker, frogmite. next turn draw land, play plating, drop enforcer, equip orni, swing for 11 points of damage.

Same with sculptor instead of thropter and esperzoa over frogmite: Play seat, tap and play drum. go. next turn, play land, tap and play sculptor, play worker. swing for 0. go. Loose to ad nauseum for 19 life worth of cards.

:cry:
That makes sense. However, I thought combo was pretty much an auto-loss anyway?
I guess my question is, why is this deck aiming for a consistent turn 4 goldfish (occasionally turn 3) win, when the matchup closest to said goldfish is anyway combo? Why not take a more resilent and powerful, albeit slower route to a turn 5 win?

Edit: I'm not trying to advocate my list right now. I want to clear my ignorance to understand why you guys prefer a more explosive list.

[slylie]

Please. I suggest reading the thread. You will see that I have done that already.



That makes sense. However, I thought combo was pretty much an auto-loss anyway?
I guess my question is, why is this deck aiming for a consistent turn 4 goldfish (occasionally turn 3) win, when the matchup closest to said goldfish is anyway combo? Why not take a more resilent and powerful, albeit slower route to a turn 5 win?

Edit: I'm not trying to advocate my list right now. I want to clear my ignorance to understand why you guys prefer a more explosive list.

Not really *autoloss*.. , against ad nauseum just try to do as much damage as quickly as possible before they can go off. Leave them with as little room for luck as possible. Games two and three are better since we have sideboard tools. If we slow our deck down even more we start loosing to other worse decks like burn and tier 2 combo. Sculptor has no evasion, is a bad topdeck, has low power and needs colored mana to play.

[Nicholas Gulledge]

Please. I suggest reading the thread. You will see that I have done that already.



That makes sense. However, I thought combo was pretty much an auto-loss anyway?
I guess my question is, why is this deck aiming for a consistent turn 4 goldfish (occasionally turn 3) win, when the matchup closest to said goldfish is anyway combo? Why not take a more resilent and powerful, albeit slower route to a turn 5 win?

Edit: I'm not trying to advocate my list right now. I want to clear my ignorance to understand why you guys prefer a more explosive list.

Because Esperzoa and Etherium Sculptor are not good enough. Neither one does anything that current cards don't already do much better.

[4eak]

@ Nazgath

I'm not trying to be flippant with you.


Please. I suggest reading the thread. You will see that I have done that already.

Aye. I've responded to you a few times. You've yet to effectively address what I've said in the primer or in my posts. By 'read the primer', I'm also saying: if you disagree, then give better reasoning than you've provided so far.

I don't mind lists with Esperzoa and Sculptor if you can properly defend why you made the deck the way you did. You didn't do this.





peace,
4eak

[Zappa]

I was wondering if I may have some advise for my meta.

I've been running into many decks abusing graveyards or have some sort of cards that requires the use of graveyards. Ranging from competitive types to random decks, majority of which uses the graveyard. I think, for where I play, it's safe to say that it's okay to main deck graveyard hate. Since I am pretty confident that I'll bump into those decks at a very high rate.

The problem I am having is, what should I take out for main decking the graveyard hate? I am considering relic over tormod's at this point due to decks that also benefits from my graveyard as well.

Here are the cards I am running into alot this whole month...

- Life From the Loam
- Crucible of Worlds
- Tarmogoyf
- Terravore
- Bridge from Below
- Nimble Mongoose
- Werebear
- Some deck that abuses Cephalid Illusionist

As well as some random black deck packing massive creature destruction like chainer's, diabolics, damnation and innocent bloods, backed by heavy discard, and steals my frogmites and enforcers via Dance of the Dead and Reanimate, while having only Tombstalkers as the only creature.

So with so many decks I am running into, which cards can be taken out in place of main decked relics? I mean really... if I play someone they're most likely using their graveyard or mine.

According to 4reak's list, ornithopter being in the bottom of the list, based on card importance, is that the card that can be taken out? My current list is as follows...

4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Tree of Tales
2 City of Brass

4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Fromite
4 Myr Enforcer
4 Ornithopter
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Master of Etherium

3 Aether Vial
3 Springleaf Drum

4 Thoughcast
4 Cranial Plating

What could be taken out to have some main decked graveyard hate?
Thank you!

[GreenOne]

You can go straight with +4 Relic -4 Workers, but I'd probably go with +3/4 relics, -2/3 workers, -1 Enforcer, -0/1 Orni.

[Zappa]

You can go straight with +4 Relic -4 Workers, but I'd probably go with +3/4 relics, -2/3 workers, -1 Enforcer, -0/1 Orni.

So just switch cards based on the casting cost? although I also like he idea of a 1/1/1 split between the creatures. hank's I'll try out the configuration and see how it works.

[bowvamp]

I'd probably go with -4 Workers. It just feels more clean. Plus, workers haven't been doing much for me recently.

[kicks_422]

Everytime I tried to replace Workers with something else, I missed them. They look weak on paper, but are really integral to how the deck plays out.

[Pltnmngl]

Everytime I tried to replace Workers with something else, I missed them. They look weak on paper, but are really integral to how the deck plays out.

What if you take out 1 of Frogmite/Worker/Orni/Enforcer?

[Elfrago]

Since my meta is combo free, I was looking for a card to replace the four Chalices in the board, something useful against Trygon Predator but not completely dead versus other decks. Right now I'm playing Thoughtseize, wich has been "meh" so far, slowing down the deck too much. Any idea?

[GreenOne]

Since my meta is combo free, I was looking for a card to replace the four Chalices in the board, something useful against Trygon Predator but not completely dead versus other decks. Right now I'm playing Thoughtseize, wich has been "meh" so far, slowing down the deck too much. Any idea?
If trygon predator is the problem (which is quite strange) you could play some sort of creature removal, like Executioner's Capsule or aether spellbomb/echoing truth. Capsule helps the Painter's and Breakfast matchup if they're present in your meta.
You could even play welding jar, which can also be good in the combat phase, against deed/EE/disk/wasteland and (non-split second) disenchant effects.

If those decks/cards are not present and predator is not that huge then Thoughtseize remains the overall better card.

[Elfrago]

Trygon is not that big of a problem but, you know, sometimes it wrecks you.
Guess I'll stick with 'seize. Maybe later on I'll try Capsule or Deathmark...

[Jujuhawk]

You can go straight with +4 Relic -4 Workers, but I'd probably go with +3/4 relics, -2/3 workers, -1 Enforcer, -0/1 Orni.

..

How about playing a card that's better against Dredge... Heap Doll anyone? You get a 1/1 so it's not always irrelevant, as it keeps your curve, and dredge actually can't win with it out, and if you have vial at 1, same thing as they probably won't play around it game 1. Essentially you are getting a worker + a card that makes you not roll to graveyard effects, all in one.

BTW, 3/3 split on vial and drum is awful. 4 drum is absolutely essential from what I've found, as you are trying to be explosive, not slow and clunky. This also allows for more options (mana fixing, etc). Atog is the actual stone nuts most of the time, as is fling. These cards make you not stone kold to combo decks as you can apply disruption with therapy as well as the ability to race them with tog and fling.

[GreenOne]

..

How about playing a card that's better against Dredge... Heap Doll anyone? You get a 1/1 so it's not always irrelevant, as it keeps your curve, and dredge actually can't win with it out, and if you have vial at 1, same thing as they probably won't play around it game 1. Essentially you are getting a worker + a card that makes you not roll to graveyard effects, all in one.

BTW, 3/3 split on vial and drum is awful. 4 drum is absolutely essential from what I've found, as you are trying to be explosive, not slow and clunky. This also allows for more options (mana fixing, etc). Atog is the actual stone nuts most of the time, as is fling. These cards make you not stone kold to combo decks as you can apply disruption with therapy as well as the ability to race them with tog and fling.


Here are the cards I am running into alot this whole month...

- Life From the Loam
- Crucible of Worlds
- Tarmogoyf
- Terravore
- Bridge from Below
- Nimble Mongoose
- Werebear
- Some deck that abuses Cephalid Illusionist

As Zappa stated, the problem is not only Dredge, but a lot of other decks/cards. Heap Doll is good against Dredge and Breakfast, and can sometimes slow down Loam. Sure, Doll has a body to work with, but Relic is also re-usable and draws a card (which is likely to draw you something better than a 1/1).

The split between vial and drum is made to lessen the diminishing returns on both cards. 2x or 3x drums sucks. 1-2x drums+1 Vial is better. If you feel comfortable with a 2/4 split or even a 3/4 split it's right.

Atog and fling are not worth it, as stated in the primer: both are non-artifacts and open the deck to X for 1s in opponent's favor, and are also of an off-color.


Atog— Atog is as close to ever as being dead to affinity. That card gets rocked by removal and it isn't an artifact. MoE/Plating/Ravager are just stronger. It is in the wrong color, it overextends, and it doesn’t permanently scale with your artifacts.

Fling/Soul's Fire—Worse than Shrapnel. Fling is a card that is too narrow and conditional while also suffering from not being an artifact, and it is merely a cool thing. It converts your most important card on the board into damage, unlike Shrapnel which creates almost the same damage (on average) for the cost of the least important card (even non-creature) for damage. If Shrapnel is dead, then this card doesn’t even stand a chance. Soul’s Fire is also just too expensive and conditional.

[4eak]

@ Jujuhawk


How about playing a card that's better against Dredge... Heap Doll anyone? You get a 1/1 so it's not always irrelevant, as it keeps your curve, and dredge actually can't win with it out, and if you have vial at 1, same thing as they probably won't play around it game 1. Essentially you are getting a worker + a card that makes you not roll to graveyard effects, all in one.

Even though I prefer Tormod's to all other gy hate in Affinity (although, a single relic in place of a crypt hasn't been bad), Relic is ~10.3345x* times betters than Heap Doll for the side slots devoted to GY hate, even against Dredge. Dredge can still win just fine with Heap Doll in play--the same cannot be said for Relic or Crypt.

Relic can be constant pressure, and when you need to blow, it does the whole GY with a cantrip. Removing Bridges against Ichorid isn't enough. Clear the GY, or don't even try. Heap Doll seems decent against Ichorid, but in testing you'll find that Relic is still much stronger. Not to mention, Heap Doll just gets worse and worse compared to relic against all other GY-based decks.

I'd also like to point out that Heap Doll is merely 50% of a Worker when another artifact creature is in play.


BTW, 3/3 split on vial and drum is awful. 4 drum is absolutely essential from what I've found, as you are trying to be explosive, not slow and clunky. This also allows for more options (mana fixing, etc).

I get to quote myself (that is always fun):


The general rule for the deck: Where Vial Affinity deserves to be played, Vial deserves to be played. If Aether Vial is somehow a terrible choice in a specific metagame, then Vial Affinity is a terrible choice in that specific metagame. You are playing in a metagame that is simply too fast for Affinity to be competitive.

Aether Vial is not an optional card for optimal builds of Vial Affinity. With that said, the exact number you can run is optional. Because there are diminishing returns to the card and we have access to Drum, 3 is an acceptable minimum. Others may run 4, and that is also very acceptable.

...


If you goto 4 on either card [Vial or Drum], Vial should be first.

Vial is nearly as explosive as Drum, and Vial remains explosive in blue-based metagames where Drum may or may not. If you think Vial is slow and clunky, then you are playing in a metagame where Vial Affinity doesn't belong (or you simply haven't tested to card against a standard Legacy gauntlet).

3/3 and 4/2 splits on Vial/Drum are the correct choices if you are playing 6 accelerant slots, and 4/3 Vial/Drum if you are playing 7 (some go all the way to 8, but that is obvious).


Atog is the actual stone nuts most of the time, as is fling. These cards make you not stone kold to combo decks as you can apply disruption with therapy as well as the ability to race them with tog and fling.

GreenOne's response + ___

You are going to lose to combo. Don't run awful cards like Fling/Atog because it gives you a small shot to play a faster deck than normal Vial Affinity against combo. Accept your losses and play a better deck against the metagame where Vial Affinity belongs, or don't play Affinity because you are facing combo.







peace,
4eak


*there is a 86.3% chance I made this number up

[Jujuhawk]

@ Jujuhawk



Even though I prefer Tormod's to all other gy hate in Affinity (although, a single relic in place of a crypt hasn't been bad), Relic is ~10.3345x* times betters than Heap Doll for the side slots devoted to GY hate, even against Dredge. Dredge can still win just fine with Heap Doll in play--the same cannot be said for Relic or Crypt.

Relic can be constant pressure, and when you need to blow, it does the whole GY with a cantrip. Removing Bridges against Ichorid isn't enough. Clear the GY, or don't even try. Heap Doll seems decent against Ichorid, but in testing you'll find that Relic is still much stronger. Not to mention, Heap Doll just gets worse and worse compared to relic against all other GY-based decks.

I'd also like to point out that Heap Doll is merely 50% of a Worker when another artifact creature is in play.

However, Heap doll doesn't cost 2 to play and activate, and if your list of "having trouble with" cards contains mongoose and werebear, than that says alot about the list in general. Losing to threshold is embarassing at best, and the same goes for stuff like aggro loam.

Heap doll is a creature, and isn't a completely dead 2 mana cantrip in most matchups.




I get to quote myself (that is always fun):



Vial is nearly as explosive as Drum, and Vial remains explosive in blue-based metagames where Drum may or may not. If you think Vial is slow and clunky, then you are playing in a metagame where Vial Affinity doesn't belong (or you simply haven't tested to card against a standard Legacy gauntlet).

3/3 and 4/2 splits on Vial/Drum are the correct choices if you are playing 6 accelerant slots, and 4/3 Vial/Drum if you are playing 7 (some go all the way to 8, but that is obvious).

Reiterating your former statements is bleh, as it's not as up to date as it should be. Vial is SO slow. Of course drawing 3 drums is awful, but 3 vials isn't any better, so your argument is null. 4/2 split is I think what my friend is playing, and I fully believe that with a full set of thopters, springleaf drum is the best card. This card allows you to run out most of your hand on turn 2, and it fixes your mana, which gives more options when you turn to things like sideboarding and splashing cards. Vial starts getting online turn 3/4, but with drum, your hand will likely be on the board by then, rather than sitting on a vial and hoping to slow the game down and get there in the late game. IMO this weakens you vs. counterbalance decks, as it gives them time to dig for crucial removal, and putting pressure on immediately is far better than vialing dudes out on turn 4.




GreenOne's response + ___

You are going to lose to combo. Don't run awful cards like Fling/Atog because it gives you a small shot to play a faster deck than normal Vial Affinity against combo. Accept your losses and play a better deck against the metagame where Vial Affinity belongs, or don't play Affinity because you are facing combo.



peace,
4eak


*there is a 86.3% chance I made this number up

I can't believe you just said that. "You are going to lose to combo. Don't try to beat combo."

This is by far one of the worst things I've heard on this forum. This deck doesn't HAVE to punt to combo decks. It's a bad matchup, yes, but you have outs available. FlingTog is one of your best outs to that matchup,giving you a chance to turn 3 them , and after board you have therapy which can buy you up to 2 turns possibly, and I have 3 stifles in the board for the deed matchups, which they are usually very unprepared for.

Combo is going to be in EVERY metagame, and if you're just going to punt against a very popular deck, than I don't know what to say besides have fun losing. I think with a correct list and good numbers this deck can shine in any metagame where rock isn't super popular. You beat up on the counterbalance decks, and most decks don't have hate for it anymore, besides the decks that have hate on accident. If I were playing in the GP tomorrow this and UGx tempo thresh would be my 2 frontrunners, one rewarding playskill, and the other to beat people that aren't prepared, which is the edge this deck has.

[GreenOne]

Heap doll is a creature, and isn't a completely dead 2 mana cantrip in most matchups.
Reading is tech:

I've been running into many decks abusing graveyards or have some sort of cards that requires the use of graveyards. Ranging from competitive types to random decks, majority of which uses the graveyard.
It's not just a cantrip in most of the matchup, just because the majority of the decks are abusing the graveyard in his meta. Otherwise there would have been no reason to play MD graveyard hate.


I can't believe you just said that. "You are going to lose to combo. Don't try to beat combo."
I'm completely with 4eak. You can't race combo with your occasional turn 3 win, just because combo is faster. We have a turn 3-5 while they have a turn 1-3. Maybe you'll win 1 out of 3 games, but considering you're almost always going to lose G1, the probability of winning both G2 and G3 is so low you shouldn't count on it. If you want we can actually have some testing session and I will prove it to you.
Also, it's not like we're the only one siding cards against combo. Combo is probably siding Shattering Spree/Rebuild/Serenity against us.
Combo is part of any metagame, but this deck should be played where there's a low number of combo decks and a good number of Aggrocontrol decks. (Also, if there's an high number of blue aggrocontrol deck, one of Affinity best matchups, there probably will be a low number of Combo decks at the top tables).

By playing Atogs and Flings you open yourself more to spot removal and by adding Red to the manabase you open yourself more to LD and Wasteland.
Increasing the number of non-artifact spells also weakens your deck's core (Plating, Ravager, Affinity cards, MoE). So, IMO, you're basically running a more speedy deck that tries to go all-in, more than a deck full of bombs and must counters. This is likely to increase your percentage against combo by a negligible margin and decrease your results against control decks.
How's your list like? can you post it?

[4eak]

@ Jujuhawk


However, Heap doll doesn't cost 2 to play and activate, and if your list of "having trouble with" cards contains mongoose and werebear, than that says alot about the list in general. Losing to threshold is embarassing at best, and the same goes for stuff like aggro loam.

Heap Doll didn't make the primer for a reason: Heap Doll is jank in legacy.

I'm surprised you need further explanation about the qualitative differences between Heap Doll and Relic/Crypt against GY-based decks. You continue to overemphasize Heap Doll's body, and you continue not to recognize the cases where and the reasons why we would choose to play GY hate.

Losing a game to Threshold shouldn't be embarrassing. Threshold ALWAYS has a chance to win against any deck in the Legacy. You will lose some games to Thresh, that is a fact of life in Legacy. The proportion of games won and lost is what really matters in this case. Affinity still has an advantageous win/loss ratio against Thresh decks which aren't prepared to face Affinity, but having an advantage doesn't mean you are immune.

Lastly, there are other decks and other GY based decks besides Ichorid and Threshold with which we board in our GY hate. Your statements do not indicate you have taken this into account.


Reiterating your former statements is bleh, as it's not as up to date as it should be.

The statements came from the recently made primer. This is up-to-date. Feel free to read to it.

Before I continue debating Vial/Drum with you, please take the time to read the pages of text already written on the subject in both threads so that we aren't repeating ourselves. You're arguments are not new ones -- we've been over this topic several times.


I can't believe you just said that. "You are going to lose to combo. Don't try to beat combo."

Have you sat down and played 20 games against TES or ANT? Seriously, Affinity is atrocious against a competent combo pilot (admittedly, not so easy to find). The idea of throwing the combo match, especially as an aggro deck, is nothing new--this shouldn't be hard to believe at all. Even on this site, plenty of decks that aren't playing a blue control shell or very heavy hand/land disruption throw the combo match all the time.







peace,
4eak

[Jujuhawk]

@ Jujuhawk



Heap Doll didn't make the primer for a reason: Heap Doll is jank in legacy.

I'm surprised you need further explanation about the qualitative differences between Heap Doll and Relic/Crypt against GY-based decks. You continue to overemphasize Heap Doll's body, and you continue not to recognize the cases where and the reasons why we would choose to play GY hate.

It seems like you haven't even tested heap doll and you're just dismissing it. The card is actually insane. This isn't based on theory. Me and my playgroup have been playing this deck for 2 months in preparation for the GP, and some people are playing 4 MD. The card is a Worker, that can get dredge or random GY decks. Some of you are punting your MD game vs. decks when it's completely unnecessary. You have a chance VS these decks without having cards that are dead in other matchups.


Losing a game to Threshold shouldn't be embarrassing. Threshold ALWAYS has a chance to win against any deck in the Legacy. You will lose some games to Thresh, that is a fact of life in Legacy. The proportion of games won and lost is what really matters in this case. Affinity still has an advantageous win/loss ratio against Thresh decks which aren't prepared to face Affinity, but having an advantage doesn't mean you are immune.

Yeah, but their counterbalances and things are embarassing compared to your myr enforcers and those things. That matchup is this decks bye, and it's the reason this deck should be played.


Lastly, there are other decks and other GY based decks besides Ichorid and Threshold with which we board in our GY hate. Your statements do not indicate you have taken this into account.

Yes, I have. Heap Doll is just as good in these matchups. Breakfast, good. Dredge, good. These are the only other real GY decks besides Team America I guess, and I consider that deck pee, so that's kind of null.


The statements came from the recently made primer. This is up-to-date. Feel free to read to it.

Before I continue debating Vial/Drum with you, please take the time to read the pages of text already written on the subject in both threads so that we aren't repeating ourselves. You're arguments are not new ones -- we've been over this topic several times.

Just dismissing this argument and saying "We've argued this before, I'm right, etc" isn't getting anywhere. You're being dense and alot of things I find wrong in this thread, that's why I'm arguing my points. Hurr.



Have you sat down and played 20 games against TES or ANT? Seriously, Affinity is atrocious against a competent combo pilot (admittedly, not so easy to find). The idea of throwing the combo match, especially as an aggro deck, is nothing new--this shouldn't be hard to believe at all. Even on this site, plenty of decks that aren't playing a blue control shell or very heavy hand/land disruption throw the combo match all the time.

peace,
4eak

No, they aren't. Good decks don't "throw" matchups against a super popular deck (not that I mention good. Shit like zoo or whatever pee deck you'll use as an argument does not constitute good). Things like goblins have a chance, as they board in DI disruption. Playing good cards in your sideboard isn't a new thing to legacy, or maybe it is according to what I've seen so far in this thread. 4 Therapies in the board makes you not completely kold to combo, along with my 3 stifles. Not only that, but they beat your other bad matchup, deed decks. Rolling dead to such a popular deck is the worst thing you can possibly do. The matchup is obviously hard, but not unwinnable. Look, replace your pithing needles with stifles! That hits deeds AND combo! Unreal!

[GreenOne]

Yes, I have. Heap Doll is just as good in these matchups. Breakfast, good. Dredge, good. These are the only other real GY decks besides Team America I guess, and I consider that deck pee, so that's kind of null.
Dredge: Crypt and Relic are better
Aggro Loam: Relic is better. Heap Doll can just sometimes remove a loam.
Landstill: Relic stops EE recursion AND Crucible. Heap doll is likely to stop EE recursion OR Crucible.
Survival: Relic stops Goyfs, Squee, Anger, Genesis, Witness. Hep doll stops 1 of those. Doesn't stop goyf.
UGx threshold: Heap doll chumpblocks, Relic makes every opposing creatures suck.
Team America: Heap Doll chumpblocks. Relic makes goyf suck and prevent the opponent from playing Tombstalker.
It's the Fear: Heap doll takes away a loam, where relic shrinks goyfs, stop EE recursion and loam.
Stax: heap doll can take 1 land from the graveyard, where Relic stops crucible.

Relic has also a continuus effect that you can use every turn, where heap doll is single-shot.
There are a lot of deck that use the graveyard in legacy, and you considered so few.


No, they aren't. Good decks don't "throw" matchups against a super popular deck (not that I mention good. Shit like zoo or whatever pee deck you'll use as an argument does not constitute good). Things like goblins have a chance, as they board in DI disruption.

Here's from the Goblins thread:

The weakness would be combo and the inabillity to improve that matchup at all (even sideboard I don't see much options)


And has the same weakness (combo) which 9times outta 10 we will not beat 2/3 but the decks we have good games against can.
So not to sound like an echo or broken record (someone had posted before) IGNORE the combo match and strengthen all the other.


In my opinion, without running some kind of interaction with combo MD, the matchup will remain unfavourable unless you devote obscene amounts of sideboardspace to it. Just run some token allround disruption and consider it a lost cause, except for the occasional cabal therapy + prowled earwigsquad-fueled fluke win.
Taking out combo is what we have threshold players for :)

Also, if it were me, and I wasn't afraid of a lot of Storm combo (And if you are, don't play Goblins)

You can also, instead, dedicate 10-12 SB cards again'st combo, and pratically give up G1.

In my experience agains't combo, the games are almost the same: he wins G1, there's a chance I win G2 on the play, and he wins G3...=/

All this said, it's got a ways to go in order to take me away from my current Storm Combo strategy, which is just to take the loss and try to increase my chances of winning everything else.
So, at least you have to admit there's other people taking the "ignore combo and win everything else" strategy.


Just dismissing this argument and saying "We've argued this before, I'm right, etc" isn't getting anywhere. You're being dense and alot of things I find wrong in this thread, that's why I'm arguing my points. Hurr.
It's not we're pretending to be just right. It's just that every month or two someone starts saying that vial is bad in the deck (I did it too long ago!). So every 2 months we have to say again the exact same things. That's why you can just read the last 10-15 pages of the old thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8147&page=43&highlight=affinity) and THEN start again the discussion about vial if it they were not satisfactoy.


So it's pretty obvious that in terms of speed drum is better. I think a better example of vial superiority would be a real game against some kind of blue deck. In that game the deck with drum has one less must counter threat while the deck with vial has one more. So if they had hands that were exactly the same but swapping vials with drums the drum deck would lose assuming the control deck could deal with their X threats (X being however many threats they draw). The Vial deck would have X+1 threats and in addition if vial does not eat a FoW T1 then all the counterspells in the control deck's hand would essentially be blanked on creatures giving the vial deck a huge advantage. I hope I haven't rehashed too much. I think this is why we need a new thread because it seems like we keep arguing the same points over and over again and a shorter thread with a nice first post might help.
Evidently even with a new thread and a good opening post it's not enough.

[Jujuhawk]

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpchi09/welcome#1

Trial 9, etc.

And just because people don't try to beat combo doesn't mean it's correct :\.

EDIT: I don't know if you thought I was talking MD and SB, but I'm talking about MD Doll vs. Relic, and I believe in the maindeck heap doll is far superior, as it isn't dead vs. anything since it's always going to be an artifact creature.

[Pltnmngl]

Um...With that build, I'm sure he was anticipating combo. Quite a bit...

[Jujuhawk]

Um...With that build, I'm sure he was anticipating combo. Quite a bit...

That's my exact list, he's a friend of mine. And if you had read the past few posts you would understand the choices.

[GreenOne]

I don't get 3 things in this deck:
- 17 Lands with only 3 Citadels. There were no wastelands in the meta?
- 3 Masters of Etherium and 3 Cranial plating. Those are bombs that MUST be dealt with in a couple of turns or just lose. Why not play 4?
- Stifle in the side: with only 9 blue sources, why playing stifle instead of Needle? Is combo that present?the number of artifacts seems quite low G2 and G3.
- Lack of green. I guess nobody played nasty enchantments.

Heap doll can be justifiable in some metas. Hell, if you're not encountering graveyard based decks beside Breakfast and Ichorid go on and play it. But if your meta is filled with general grave based decks, then Relic is the way to go. That's why I was suggesting Relic to Zappa.

EDIT: which decks did your friend play against?

[BreathWeapon]

If you want to play Heap Doll, can't you just play Heap Doll instead of Arcbound Worker MD and then SB in Relic of Progenitus as well? Heap Doll just doesn't have the impact of Relic of Pregenitus or Tormod's Crypt post SB, so it seems more sensible to run a card with legs and disruption MD instead of SBing it in as your anti-graveyard tech.

I mean Arcbound Worker is decent, but if Heap Doll improves match up percentages vs tough match ups like Loam and Ichorid, I'd rather go with that.

[Jujuhawk]

I don't get 3 things in this deck:
- 17 Lands with only 3 Citadels. There were no wastelands in the meta?
- 3 Masters of Etherium and 3 Cranial plating. Those are bombs that MUST be dealt with in a couple of turns or just lose. Why not play 4?
- Stifle in the side: with only 9 blue sources, why playing stifle instead of Needle? Is combo that present?the number of artifacts seems quite low G2 and G3.
- Lack of green. I guess nobody played nasty enchantments.

Heap doll can be justifiable in some metas. Hell, if you're not encountering graveyard based decks beside Breakfast and Ichorid go on and play it. But if your meta is filled with general grave based decks, then Relic is the way to go. That's why I was suggesting Relic to Zappa.

EDIT: which decks did your friend play against?

1. That manabase is different from mine. I play 2 COB, no glimmervoids, 4 citadels, and no blinkmoths. The manabase is usually fine though.
2. Cut in favor of less clunky cards, and outs to combo.
3. Your main-page list plays 4 Grips in the board and only 9 green sources. Your point? Yes, we're playing prepared for combo, and vs. the deed decks here needle just dies to their vindicate and buys a turn really, and it's very bad if they're ready for it. Plus stifle is good against combo, etc.
4. The only enchantment that's really bad for me is deed, and I have 7 outs in the board. Moat is not present here as no one has them, and cb/top isn't awful for this deck.

[Rascal]

Hi!

At first place - big congratz to authors of this awesome opening post! Great job!!

I play very similar version of deck you mention. My only changes are -3 S.Drum; + 1x A.Vial, + 2x Paradise Mantle (in my opinion quicker version).

Now I´m testing version with white - 4 maindeck Ethersworn Canonist. I cut 1 Disciple (the most discutable for you I think), 1 Frogmite, 1 Thoughtcast and 1 Aether Vial (from my version with four of it).
And of course switch ToT for Ancient Den.

The pity of this solution is we have to give up split second ability of Krosan Grip and replace it in SB by Disenchatn.
My point of view is, that we need KGrip MAINLY (yes, Team America, Landstill,...) on the P.Deed in Rock-like decks - obviously no blue. And Disenchant is one mana cheaper - yeah, I know, KGrip is definitely and no question solution.

MD with Canonist is do good in my current testing. With cards I cutted, I increase my artifact count by two - which is often good.

I would like to hear some your suggestions, experience.

Have a great day!

[Zappa]

Hi!

At first place - big congratz to authors of this awesome opening post! Great job!!!

Hi and welcome to Vial Affinity thread. Glad to know you took the time to read. 4eak and GreenOne spent quite alot of effort making it as detailed as possible.


I play very similar version of deck you mention. My only changes are -3 S.Drum; + 1x A.Vial, + 2x Paradise Mantle (in my opinion quicker version).

Actually Paradise Mantle is outdated, and most decks have dropped the card for Springleaf Drum. I used to run mantle in my old build until I tried out the drum, I find the drum to be just all around better accellerating the deck.


Now I´m testing version with white - 4 maindeck Ethersworn Canonist. I cut 1 Disciple (the most discutable for you I think), 1 Frogmite, 1 Thoughtcast and 1 Aether Vial (from my version with four of it).
And of course switch ToT for Ancient Den.!

I have another Vial Affinity build that's running a white splash instead of of a green splash as well. Canonist is a SB card, the only time I would see the reason for it to be run maindecked is when you are facing storm based combo decks. Which you should keep in mind that Affinity is not suited to be in a combo heavy field.

That aside, canonist's body is too small for a deck that should be aggro. 2 mana for a small frame just wont cut it. There will also be several matches where canonist will cause some problems, since the card is colored. Adding more colored cards to the deck will make you a lot more dependant on color fixing cards. Which could lead to you holding back the card when facing hate, or when waiting for the said colox fixers. Holding back is something that Affinity just does not want.

The card's you are cutting from the deck are the some core cards that makes the deck powerful. Shuffle up the deck and play it against people and see for yourself.

[furt]

I played this list in Chicago:

4 Thopter
4 Worker
4 Disciple
4 Ravager
4 Frog
4 Enforcer
4 Master

4 Springleaf Drum
3 Vial
4 Plating
4 Thoughtcast

4 Seat
4 Vault
4 Citadel
3 Ancient Den
2 City of Brass


Sideboard

3 Thoughtseize
4 Pithing Needle
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Ethersworn Canonist



I went 7-2 Day 1 with just a single bye. I had some good matchups along the way. I was going to play the original list in this thread but after walking the room we decided to go with Ethersworn and the Thougthseizes. They were correct choices on the day for sure.

Rd 2, I win 2-0 over Dredge. Game 1 he loses because I drop Ravager before he can get off a good sized Breakthrough. Game 2 he keeps a hand with some hate but not enough gas. He Needles both Relic and Crypt in the first few turns and tries to win with just dredging on his draw step which is obviously too slow.

Rd 3, I win 2-1 over UWb Landstill. Game 1 I blow him out. Game 2 he Wraths my board before I can get enough damage in. And in Game 3 he taps out for a Elspeth on his 4th turn and I am able to kill him with a Master and a plated Enforcer with his only blocker being a solider token.

Rd 4, I win 2-1 over European Pro Manuel Bucher playing Uwb Faeries. Game 1 he mulls to 4. Game 2 a quick Jitte, thanks to a Chrome Mox is enough for him to stabilize. Game 3 he cannot deal with double Frog and Enforcer.

Rd 5, I win 2-0 over a Counterbalance-Based Gro list, with Bob, Goyf, and Dryads. MD smothers and Engineered Explosives almost get him Game 1 but I am able to get him to 1 life and I stop attacking and let his Bob kill him, even though he has Top out, he had drawn close to 11 land already. Game 2 was not even close.

Rd 6, I lose 2-1 to AnT. Game 1 he does what he is supposed to do and wins on turn two. Game 2 he mulls to 6 and I come out of the gates fast with a double Disciple draw. After the match, he tells me he had a Meltdown in hand to try and wreck my board but couldn't cast it without dying. Game 3 I am forced to mull to 3. All previous hands are unkeepable, but my 3 cards are, Seat, Den, Cannonist. Not too bad. We go land go until I drop the canonist. By this time my two draw steps have brought me another Cannonist and a Drum. On his turn three he Meltdowns for 2 to take my board. We go draw go for 6-7 turns. I never draw a land. He kills me eventually. If the Seat had been a Citadel, I would've come back. Tough beats, gotta move on.

Rd 7, I beat AnT 2-1. Game one I have a turn three kill on the play and he also had a turn three kill so thank god I win most dice rolls. Game 2 he goes off on turn 1. Can't do anything about that. Game 3 I get Duressed on turn 1 and he sees a Cannoist coming down. So upkeep he Chants me off a petal. Next turn he chants me again. The next turn he Chants me a third time. I have no problem with this because he has only 3 cards in hand the entire time. Eventually I get to play things and I play somewhere around 10 cards on turn 5 and kill him the following turn.

Rd 8, I beat Merfolk 2-0. The games were not even close in the slightest bit. I had the nuts of quad Frog in game two on turn two.

Rd 9, at this point I am 7-1 and a lock for Day Two, my opponent offers a draw as he is tired and needs food, I decline, wanting to be in prime position tomorrow. The top tables are littered with blue decks so I want to be at the top. Turns out he is playing a very anti-aggro build of Landstill with MD Propaganda. Prop slows me down too much Game 1 and I lose to Humility. Game 2 I regret not having Grips but luckily I dont get angry as he wastes my first two land drops so I never really am in the game.

7-2 was pretty good for Day One, my only fear was all the random decks I saw around the X-2 brackets.


Day 2

Rd 10, I win 2-1 against Belcher. I win the die roll and lead with Citadel, Drum, Thopter, Frogmite. Good start. He starts with SSG, Rite of Flame, ESG, Tinderwall, two blank Chrome Mox, Empty the Warrens for ten guys, he has the better start. I kill him turn three though with Plating, Rav and Disciple. Thopter beats! Game 2 he does his thing turn 1 and I am done. Game 3 I open a hand that can led with Seize or Needle, I lead with the Seize because my hand can not beat a big Empty. I see Empty, Belcher, and mana to play both, but not activate Belcher. He is three short. So I take the Empty and pass. He draws, says sorry, and plays the Belcher out and shows the LED he drew. Good thing he still had a Bayou in his deck because he hit me for about 10 damage and then revealed Bayou. I Needle Belcher and he loses pretty fast.

Rd 11, I lose 0-2 to Carlos Ramao playing Aggro Loam. Game 1 he Burning Wishes for Shattering Spree to take out all my creatures and slowly wins from there. Game 2 is pretty much the same except he Wishes for the same Spree 4 times thanks to my having to Relic his graveyard a couple times to keep him off Assult/Loam.

Rd 12, I lose 1-2 to Dredge. Game 1 he wins the die roll, mulls to 6 and leads with Tireless Tribe. I am in rough shape. All I have is a Worker and a pass. Next turn I will have Ravager though. I hope he doesn't kill me this turn. He doesn't discard a single dredge and just draws for turn. He then discards the top decked Gravetroll and casts Careful Study and Breakthrough to end me. Game 2 he keeps a slow hand that plays around the hate. I am forced to crack my Relic turn three with two Narco triggers on the stack and pretty good grave. He recovers quickly and gets a 21/21 Troll in play and about 7 zombie tokens. I have only a couple turns to do something. My board is 2 Frogs, Rav, Worker, Thopter, and Master. On his turn he attacks and I chump the troll and take 14 or so. Next turn I draw Thoughtcast, which draws me into Thoughtcast and Disciple, the next Thoughtcast gets me another Disciple which ends that game. Game 3 he mulls to 6. He leads with a Imp and I lead with Citdel into Relic. He pitches a dredger and a useless card to stop my Relic from being good. He has an okay turn with a dredger and a Careful Study. Nothing too great but he Dread Returns an Ichorid Making 6 Tokens, attacks for 3 and gets two more tokens. This is a tough spot. I am at 17 and he has 8 power in play. I have to Relic his graveyard next turn but my second land drop is only a City of Brass. I am holding two Frogmites, Ravager, and Disciple. I draw nothing and can do nothing but RFG his graveyard and drop a Disciple going to 16. He attacks me to 8. I draw and miss a land. An artifact land would've been golden there but I am forced to drop Ravager and do some bad trades. I draw another blank and extend my hand.

Rd 13-15 was all against Goblins. Nothing special here. I won one match and get blown out by the others. Its not my favorite matchup but it is winnable.


So 9-6 overall, after 7-2 start is pretty disappointing but I had a lot of fun with the deck. I believe if I got paired with more of the Counterbalance, blue-based decks, I would've done better on Day Two but I can't complain really.

The deck is very strong in the format as I see it right now. Especially with the Top 8 results. Minus the AnT deck in the top 8, they all seem like 50/50 or better matchups.

[4eak]

@ furt


Rd 13-15 was all against Goblins. Nothing special here. I won one match and get blown out by the others. Its not my favorite matchup but it is winnable.

So 9-6 overall, after 7-2 start is pretty disappointing but I had a lot of fun with the deck. I believe if I got paired with more of the Counterbalance, blue-based decks, I would've done better on Day Two but I can't complain really.

I'm not surprised you faced Goblins (not just because it is an excellent deck, but because it appeared to be a decent meta choice). You wished to be paired against blue-based decks, and I'm sure the goblin pilots had the same train of thought. It is almost ironic that you got paired against them back to back to back.

While I consider the Goblins match pretty close to even, I prefer to be the one playing Goblins intead of Affinity. Beyond the Goblin/Affinity matchup, I think Goblins does what Affinity wants to do, only better. I think Goblins has way more "oops, I win", a larger range of options, better CA, and more moldable tactics.

Goblins is arguably the greatest competitor of Affinity. Both decks exist to defeat blue-control, both decks have decent non-combo matches all around, and both are synergy aggro-combo decks.

If you could do the GP again, would you have brought Goblins instead of Affinity?






peace,
4eak

[furt]

Its a tough question. I have played A LOT of Goblins. Goblins is a deck that got me to the Pro Tour before in Extended. Its a deck that got me to 9th place at Regionals in 2004 (it was a 500 man regionals tournament, 11 rounds), which is time when 60 percent of any Standard tournament was Affinity (both deck had access to four Skullclamps.) It has brought to a couple PTQ Top 8's and has brought me a couple tournament wins in Legacy. In short, I know Goblins inside and out. I know the matchups and I have a great feel for how most matchups go.

In any other format I would always prefer to be on the Affinity players side but in Legacy it is not the case. You said it right on the head, while it is not unwinnable and maybe not unfavorable, you just would rather be in the Goblins seat.

I would def play Affinity again if I had to do the GP over. I felt it was a great metagame choice and a lot of people underestimated its speed. I had more than one person on the weekend comment on how fast I killed, and sometimes out of absolutely nowhere. Its a deck that has its place and I liked my choices and I liked my sideboard as every card was pretty much relevant at some point on the weekend.

[GreenOne]

I'm leaning towards Thoughtseize too, in place of Chalice of the void.

I still believe some Disenchant Effect is needed by the deck. Did you miss Grips besides the landstill match?

How the hell your ANT opponent kept a hand with Duress+3 Chants against an aggro deck? Btw, how were the canonists? Seems like you boarded them in against just the 2 ANT decks.

[4eak]

@ furt


Btw, how were the canonists? Seems like you boarded them in against just the 2 ANT decks.

Ditto.

You did face combo 5 times:

2x Dredge (obviously no Canon here)
2x ANT
1x Belcher (Needle obviously, but did you run Canon here? )

Where else did you feel E-canon was worth boarding in? You saw Canonist in both ANT matchups, but how much did it really help? Do you think you faced a proper pilot in the ANT matchup you won? Or, rather, do you think you won in virtue of Canonist or in virtue of your opponent not playing/mulling correctly?

In my experience E-Canon's effect scales down very quickly as combo-pilot skill increases. E-Canon punishes poor-skill players dramatically, but hasn't been worth the sideboard slots (or color change) against a good pilot. There are few truly skilled pilots of combo decks, and that is definitely to our advantage. Should we bank on playing against combo pilots with mediocre skill? It seems plausible, but it certainly leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I generally try to beat expert pilots, not the average pilot of a given deck--but perhaps we should make an exception.

Lastly, why no Chalice? I see GreenOne might agree with the choice, so if either of you can give a good answer, I'd appreciate it. Chalice has won way more games against combo than Canon for me. Chalice is substantially easier to cast, it protects itself when dropped at 1, and when Dropped at zero it stops T1/2 shenanigans. I don't see why you would play Canon before/without Chalice if you wanted to combat combo. I run both automatically if I'm boarding against storm combo.








peace,
4eak

[GreenOne]

Lastly, why no Chalice? I see GreenOne might agree with the choice, so if either of you can give a good answer, I'd appreciate it. Chalice has won way more games against combo than Canon for me. Chalice is substantially easier to cast, it protects itself when dropped at 1, and when Dropped at zero it stops T1/2 shenanigans. I don't see why you would play Canon before/without Chalice if you wanted to combat combo. I run both automatically if I'm boarding against storm combo.

I don't expect to ever win against storm combo, so I don't justify the chalices just cause they're good in that matchup. The other matchup where CotV is useful is Threshold/Dreadstill, where I already want to side in Krosan Grip or Relic.
Thoughtseize is good in the Control/Rock matchup Where it can take preentively (sp?) their EE, Deed or whatever. Same goes for the Stax, Dragon Stompy, etc.
Threshold is a nice matchup, I don't want to dilute my deck too much, 4 SB slots seems ok against them. Thoughtseize is an overall card that can be sided against a good number of decks when you don't exactly know what to expect.
If you have a more specific hint on your metagame, then you can drop thoughtseize and play Plague/Chalice/etc, I guess.
This is the reasoning that brought me to Thoughtseize. That said, it's still in testing.

[4eak]

I didn't phrase that well enough. I thought you were considering replacing Chalice with Thoughtseize while also playing Canon to answer storm combo (as if you had agreed with furt's choice). Clearly, if you aren't trying to answer storm combo at all, then not playing Chalice is perfectly reasonable. My question still stands for furt then.

My testing on Thoughtseize is mixed. Thoughtseize is a card you want in your opening hand, but often becomes dead by turn 3 or 4. You either seized their answer or threat on turn 1 or 2 or they get to play their answer (and continually do so as they topdeck it--preventing further discard opportunities), and Thoughtseize becomes a dead card and dead topdecks. I don't like that I MUST open the game with black mana for Thoughtseize to realize its potential. I don't like that it isn't an artifact permanent either.

The main thing Thoughtseize has going for it is that it is always a relevant card against pretty much every deck on turn 1. That sounds like an argument for maindeck play, not for siding though.







peace,
4eak

[Pltnmngl]

Jujuhawk & furt - Congrats on how well your lists did. You guys prove affinity can definitely be a contender. I predicted the metagame the same way you guys did. Looking at the top 8, I almost want to chalk up the standings to bad luck. Oh well...

As a sidenote, Nassif is a lucky s.o.b.

[furt]

I will start at the top and say that I agree 100% with the way Canonist's ability scales down as player skill goes up. One of the two ANT players I played was far far more proficient with combo than they other and he was the one I lost too. I would like to add that I would've won the game without a mull to 7 I believe based on the hand he kept on the play in game 3

Thoughtseize was actually very very good all weekend. As stated it is good in a lot of random matchups, it was also decent against Goblins. More than once it hit his freshly Matroned up creature or a fresh Ringleader draw.

If you do have a more defined metagame to play in I could def see playing the Grips and Chalices over the more broad Thoughtseizes.

As I predicted, I would much need the Cannonists much more than I would need Grips. To me the biggest Grip target is Humility. In my testing, I am not very worried about 12/12s. I saw far more Combo around than Humility so thats when I made that switch.

[xsockmonkeyx]

My friend wants to play this deck in an up coming tourney, and he doesn't have the Ravagers to make the world go round. What can we replace him with that will be somewhat representative or play into the strategy of the deck? Is Atog the best option? Responses with "hurrrrr, play another deck" will not help. Thanks.

[Fons]

Ravager is very important to the deck try borrowing them from someone. Or see how much it costs to get them off ebay.

[GreenOne]

I'd play 4 Vial and Epochrasite.
And it would suck.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Ravager is very important to the deck try borrowing them from someone. Or see how much it costs to get them off ebay.

Of course I will try to borrow, but I need a contingency plan should they not be available. eBay is not an option because this is short notice and they wont arrive in time.


I'd play 4 Vial and Epochrasite.
And it would suck.

Interesting, but im not sure we want more Myr Enforcer type creatures. I would think Atog might be better because it opens up the Disciple engine. Also, we would have to borrow/eBay the Epocrasites as well.

@Ravager or bust: we havent found it nearly as important as as Cranial Plating, Master of Etherium, or Thoughtcast is to the deck, and the shell is solid as a whole, so the deck wouldnt be unplayable without him. Most of the time all he does is combat/removal tricks, and opening up Disciple kill. Sure it will suck but it wont be the end of the world with Atog instead IMO.

[4eak]

@ xsockmonkeyx


My friend wants to play this deck in an up coming tourney, and he doesn't have the Ravagers to make the world go round. What can we replace him with that will be somewhat representative or play into the strategy of the deck? Is Atog the best option? Responses with "hurrrrr, play another deck" will not help. Thanks.

Arcbound Ravager is the best card in the deck. Removing him (even if not by choice) would probably require you to change the nature of the deck a bit more than by 4 cards. You lose a lot of reason to play resilient-aggro with no Ravager. Disciple of the Vault loses a ton of value without Ravager, in the same way that Daze just isn't nearly as good without FoW (or Stifle/Wasteland).

I think the resilience plan is questionable in your case. Atog is an all-in card. If your adding him, then I'd consider adding more of that. I would test the red-combo plan if I were you. Perhaps something like this:

Lands: 18
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Great Furnace
4 City of Brass
2 Darksteel Citadel

Creatures: 26
4 Atog
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Frogmite
3 Ornithopter
4 Master of Etherium
3 Myr Enforcer

Spells: 16
4 Thoughtcast
4 Cranial Plating
4 Springleaf Drum
4 Shrapnel Blast or Fling


It is strictly inferior to Vial Affinity except against combo (which doesn't make a real difference anyways). But, if you don't have the ravagers, then you gotta make due.





peace,
4eak

[xsockmonkeyx]

Thanks 4eak, Ill take a look at the more comboish Fling/Blast orientated approach and see what happens.

[xsockmonkeyx]

My friend ended up making top 8 with the Atog-combo version so everything turned out well. :smile: Thanks for the advice, it really helped.

[Kilz88]

I will start at the top and say that I agree 100% with the way Canonist's ability scales down as player skill goes up. One of the two ANT players I played was far far more proficient with combo than they other and he was the one I lost too. I would like to add that I would've won the game without a mull to 7 I believe based on the hand he kept on the play in game 3

Thoughtseize was actually very very good all weekend. As stated it is good in a lot of random matchups, it was also decent against Goblins. More than once it hit his freshly Matroned up creature or a fresh Ringleader draw.

If you do have a more defined metagame to play in I could def see playing the Grips and Chalices over the more broad Thoughtseizes.

As I predicted, I would much need the Cannonists much more than I would need Grips. To me the biggest Grip target is Humility. In my testing, I am not very worried about 12/12s. I saw far more Combo around than Humility so thats when I made that switch.

Couple questions. I would have played this most likely if I had gone to the GP. Unfortunatly I could not but I do play sanctioned legacy on a weekly basis with about 18-20 players. That being said this is my current board setup:

4 Pithing Needle
4 Heap Doll
3 Engineered Plague
3 Disenchant
1 Aether Vial

I am not super happy with parts of it. I like the dolls, needles, and plagues but the rest is weird. The biggest problems I face in my meta are like humility/moat in the form of stax and landstill, counterspells, and progenitus. I was thinking of trying duress. How many situations did it matter whether it was duress or thoughtseize? Also what can I bring chalice in against that isnt combo? Combo is non-existent in my meta so...

[gamegeek2]

gamegeek2 from Gleemax, just got permission to post.

Here's the list I'm taking to tomorrow's Dream Wizards Legacy

4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Tree of Tales
4 Darksteel Citadel
2 Glimmervoid

4 Arcbound Worker
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Master of Etherium
4 Frogmite
4 Myr Enforcer
3 Ornithopter

4 Aether Vial
4 Thoughtcast
4 Cranial Plating
3 Springleaf Drum

--- Sideboard ---
4 Engineered Plague
4 Pithing Needle
3 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus

Last time I went, the meta was infested with Threshold. I am expecting a greater NLU (aka CounterTop) this time, due to its success at the Grand Prix, and put Thopters back in and moved Relics to the side (CounterTop is less reliant on the graveyard).

The Relic/Crypt split is to have 4 GY hate, but the Relics can come in against Threshold and Team America, whereas the Crypts are for the speed, and the Relics just serve as ways to dodge counter-hate such as Chalice and Pithing Needle.

[Pltnmngl]

Looks right to me. Heck, we practically have the same sideboard. Good luck!

[gamegeek2]

Well, I went 3-2. Barely missed top 8 (9th) - I was 7th going in to round 5 and wanted to draw, but the other guy (Phil Sagnay) had to play because there was another X-1 (Anwar) with bad breakers that could knock him out of Top 8 contention. I lost (lots of lands...), and still had a shot, but Mike and Chris drew after they found out they could draw into Top 8 (Mike had Painter's Grinstone in play, with mana to activate, too) - then again, Mike's decision makes sense, because Affinity is a bad matchup whereas Mighty Quinn is very good.

Round 1 - Jonathan - AnT with Doomsday

Game 1, he kills me turn 3. Game 2, he goes off but doesn't have enough mana (he messes up AdN) - Game 3, he mulls to 5 and I kill him turn 4.

Round 2 - Simon - RGB Aggro

He's my friend, playing a non-Tier 1 deck, but quite solid, featuring the typical GR Sligh Beatdown suite, but with less burn and Thoughtseizes, Bob, etc. Game 1, Ravager gets there through Goyfs and other stuff. Game 2, he stumbles a bit on mana and I blow him out of the water

Round 3 - Elves (this guy made Top8)

Game 1, he's at enough life to get there with turn 3 Natural Order (for Progenitalia). Game 2, I get him to 2 but Progenitus and a lot of Elves get there.

Round 4 - Jarvis - Goblins

Game 1, I kill him on turn 4 with multiple Disciples and Ravager. Game 2, he Wastes me on the play and beats me up with Lackeys and Warchiefs. Game 3, I have a decent draw and kill him turn 4 with help from Plating.

Round 5 - Phil (made top 8) with Bw Aggro/Control (Zombies)

Game 1, I beat him up with Master and Enforcer. Games 2 and 3 I draw 7 lands, with me mulliganing in Game 2 and losing all my creatures to a Hymn and double Thoughtseize in Game 3.

Engineered Plague, I find, is not the greatest, as it's only good against good matchups. However, I don't know what would go in over it.

[Zappa]

Hey GameGeek2, nice to see you here. You know me from wizards as Ilyasviel Einzbern. I haven't posted there in awhile, and even here since I have been out of the Magic scene for awhile due to Street Fighter 4. But glad to see you here, and glad to see you still playing Affinity.

Surprised by your results against AnT, though one of the posters named Furt also had some sucess against those. Though I wonder how familiar they are with the deck. But anyways, are there no room for sideboarding in Chalice of the Void? I've been keeping it in my sideboard and never really had any complaints about it.

I'm still pretty satisfied with the configuration of:

3 Krosan Grip
4 [Cards for your meta]
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pithing Needle

But then again, I've been out of the magic scene for awhile. Oh and which combinations of Thresh do you normally see anyways?

[1maarten1]

Hey, i'm playing the deck for a while now on mws and goldfishing and its going pretty well. Only the sideboard im having troubles with. I never know what to board out :rolleyes: . Could someone give sideboardoptions on what to board out and in against some decks?? :smile:

~Maarten

[Elfrago]

Hey maarten, I ha d the same problem and I asked the same question.
Here is the answer:


@ Elfrago



I look at choosing what to side out as this question:

"what are the least important cards in the main against my opponent?"

(I know, I'm stating the obvious.)

The primer shows a decent structure of how I value each card (I tried to show the most valuable at the top, descending to the least valuable). Perhaps I should say that more explicitly in the primer. The generic answer is at the bottom of that list. Ornithopter, Myr Enforcer, Workers, and sometimes Frogmites are the cards I side out. It depends on the match and how many cards I need to side in. Examples:

If I'm playing against certain control decks, Ornithopters flying is less valuable, and so I'm often inclined to remove them for gamebreakers like Krosan Grip.

If I'm facing Deed, then I never take out Myr Enforcers.

I have dropped 1-2 MoE against copious amounts of mana denial, but I'm not convinced that is the correct play. If I had a 4th Vial in the main, I certainly wouldn't do this.

If I'm only siding Pithing Needles, it often substitutes for the Workers.




peace,
4eak

[gamegeek2]

I generally board out Thopters - I find they're the weakest card in the deck, and the most reliant on specific other cards to be effective. For my four-ofs, I take out my 3 Thopters and an Enforcer, and for my 3-ofs I just board out Thopters.

I just find Enforcer so effective - he's extremely efficient as a 1 or 2 mana 4/4, which is plenty good enough to get the job done.

Thresh has fallen out of favor at my local tourney since the GP, NLU seems to have taken its place. I did an extensive amount of testing and put relics back in the board because they're not nearly as effective at neutering their creature base (though they are still good, and I board in 2 Relics usually for Thopters, unless they're playing Predators). Enforcer also sneaks around Counterbalance as a 4/4 beater very nicely.

The thing is, this deck can fairly easily dodge CounterTop due to its wide range of casting costs, as well as the ever-amazing Aether Vial. Counterbalance is almost dead, I would just side it out if I were the NLU player.

[Kanti]

I am playing the fairly standard first page list, same sb and all, and its been working fairly well. In a meta dominated by cb and discard it is easy to puke out my hand t2-t3 and make haste from there.

What I would like to know if how you sb for the matchups, since it seems we have a lot of cards that can do good. Against normal thresh, do you sb in gy hate and hope to make their creatures useless/make their clock slow as hell as you try to aggro-out, do you side in Krosans too? Do you side in the Needles to deal with SDT? If so, what do you side out to keep a good clock?

Affinity,like most highly-synergestic decks, is hard to sb with.

[gamegeek2]

Change from my previous list for the next tournament

SB
-4 Engineered Plague
+4 Chalice of the Void

[gamegeek2]

Apoplogies for the double post, but Affinity has had some nice finishes as of late. We might make DTW this time around.

[BattlefieldMedic]

Apoplogies for the double post, but Affinity has had some nice finishes as of late. We might make DTW this time around.

Pardon my noobiness but where does one look to find Affinity results?

[Barsoom]

Pardon my noobiness but where does one look to find Affinity results?

http://www.deckcheck.net/

[BattlefieldMedic]

http://www.deckcheck.net/

Thanks.

It seems strange that all of the decks that most of the decks that make top 8 have red or white as the third color as opposed to green. Any reason for this?

The trend seems to be that they're all from foreign countries.. is UBg affinity an American version or something?

[Iranon]

Are 4 Ravagers really enough to make the Disciple pull its weight? Personally, I'd also want at least one Atog along the Ravagers.

Am I the only one who feels like this? Or is it simply preferable to have a slightly inferior main deck for a better sideboard (Tree of Tales -> Great Furnace would mean no Krosan Grips...).

[gamegeek2]

Disciple pulls its weight not only because of Ravager, but also because of board sweepers/removal and Vial tricks.

I'm also thinking about sideboarding Chokes. Seems like a nice card against blue decks, which are rampant right now.

[Pltnmngl]

Choke sounds interesting...Tell me how that works out for you.

I personally don't think we will get DTW status unless Zendikar gives us something interesting.

[4eak]

@ Pltnmngl


I personally don't think we will get DTW status unless Zendikar gives us something interesting.

You are probably right, DTW seems unlikely.

Although, remember that the DTB forum is about making a valid gauntlet and anticipating a metagame. It isn't about "which deck is scientifically the best" (even though I'd be willing to argue it often houses those decks).

The largest factor to a deck getting DTW status is just the number of people actually playing the deck, especially skilled players with good builds. The Affinity archetype is often short on both of accounts. I think most Established decks could easily make DTW status if played by decent pilots in decent numbers.

Most (if not all) decks are strongest when they aren't anticipated (anticipated like the DTW/DTB), and Affinity is a prime example (given the hate it could face). I wouldn't want others playing Affinity if I was playing Affinity. The less my opponent can anticipate me as an Affinity pilot, the better.

Also, I can't think of a card WoTC would give Affinity. Although, I was pretty surprised by MoE.




peace,
4eak

[Elfrago]

I've played the deck for a while in small local tournaments, when I didn't play it I lended it to a couple of friends of mine. All three of us had the same conclusion: the deck performs good.
But I don't think that DTW will come, especially with the printing of Quasali Pridemage that could be a real pain in the ass if widely played.

[Pltnmngl]

So...how much do we suck now? (So much for DTW status...:cry: )

Is it bad that I'm praying for good artifacts in Zendikar? (Metallic Dreams (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/arcana/187), please?)

PS- Perhaps the original post should be modified when the rule changes go through...

[Elfrago]

I haven't tested the deck with the new rules but... I don't think it really loses that much. Ravager is still a fine beater, still able to eat things that where about to die due to removal and still able of eathing creatures that where about to die in combat (sadly without being able of damage on stack things).
And now Quasali pridemage can't be used to 2-for-1 shenigans.

If all else fails, just replace ravager with Tarmogoyf =)

[Pltnmngl]

So...should I just let go of Engineered Plauge altogether? It seems we don't have anything that compliments it anyway...

[NERER0CKET]

Plague naming Lurgoyf is pretty much the tech :tongue:
It really depends on your meta, it can "help" slow down alot of good decks.

[GreenOne]

Since against tribal decks the match tends to go long, with both sides having a good number of creatures in play, Do or Die might be an option.

[BattlefieldMedic]

Can somebody do a "typical hand to keep/mulligen" type thing?

[ignorantpenguin]

Can somebody do a "typical hand to keep/mulligen" type thing?

Generally, you should look at your hand, and know that by turn 3, you will have played all but 1 or maybe 2 cards in it. The exception is when you start with a vial and have a good vial curve with turn 3 Ravager into turn 4 Master of Etherium, with the rest of the hand good enough to play a blocker should you NEED it to keep you alive (you probably won't)

You should also have at least one good threat or lot of little guys and a Thoughtcast. IMO, reasonable threats: Plating, Enforcer, Master, Ravager

[Mystical_Jackass]

Hi Everyone!

I've never built an Affinity deck before and I deffinitely wanna try 'cause it just sounds like a lotta fun, some of the damage I've seen pumped out is just ridonculous >.>

Well, I guess the main reason I sorta got drawn in is the spell Time Sieve. Yarr.. I know you've already prolly started cringing, lol, but I love the challenge trying new ideas out and trying to break cards.

My idea was combining the basic shell, for the most part, of what you guys have and mixing in Moriot Rigger & Time Sieve. I just thought it'd be sweet, sac 5 artifacts to give yourself an extra turn, Rigger grows to 7/7, swing next turn ftw--I just thought the synergy was awesome. I know Arcbound works a lot the same way, but ..well, this way you can sacrafice to Sieve's ability instead of arcbound AND get the extra turn, use the next turn to finish them off with cranial or Rigger, etc. It also might seem like its disynergy if used with Master of Etherium, but I don't think it'd be as much an issue, if anything it'd be more a double threat ^.^ Double Dragon suckas' lol

Is there a way to make this work well? Any ideas would be awesome :laugh:

[beastman]

I've been testing this deck out alot recently, and I have to say I'm most impressed by the red splash. The power in the deck really lies in its ability to kill out of nowhere, and before the opponent can find their hate. Atog, Fling, and even shrapnel blast can make this deck stupid fast, and I believe thats probably a route that isn't discussed enough, at least, as of late.

[jimirynk]

I refuse to play this deck after m10 rules ruin ravager.

[Elfrago]

I refuse to play this deck after m10 rules ruin ravager.

Thanks for the constructive criticism sir, we will keep this in mind.

[arebennian]

Just how bad do the M10 changes make the deck?

Is it really as bad as a few people make out?

Would be interesting to hear the Primer writer's comments...

[4eak]

Affinity had many games where combat math and carefully declaring blockers mattered and many games where we had to ask "damage on the stack?" fairly often. It's obvious that the deck is hurt by the combat changes.

The new system doesn't ruin Vial Affinity, but I think it weakens it. The defensive aspect of combat was buffed, targeted removal became stronger, and some of our synergistic combat tricks have disappeared. This was a deck that squeezed for every little bit of damage it could muster, and the nerf did take a points of damage from some of games.

However, some cards we really dislike, e.g. Fanatic and Qasali Pridemage, also took a hit.

Ravager is not ruined. His greatest strengths still remain. He punishes all forms of permanent destruction, and he is still a scaling artifact that also combos with Disciple. Ravager will not be replaced; he is still the most important card in the deck, and he still remains mostly functional.

Besides the types of hate that can be leveraged against this deck, the barriers posed by combo, and the lack of skilled Affinity pilots, the other large factor which we need to consider is this:

The average power of the format only continues to increase. That trend is likely to continue. Affinity will rarely (if ever) be a benefactor, and will continue to trend downwards in proportional power to the rest of the format. I see a decay in the viability of a deck which has little room for improvement or innovation in a format that continues to evolve into a stronger and harsher environment.

As far as I can tell, decks that can play random, undercosted creatures are the most likely to continue to be viable in the future of Legacy (i.e. Fish/Grow/Zoo). Combat synergy decks will decline (not overnight, but overtime).

For now, Vial Affinity is still a reasonable choice in many metagames. And, I think it will be a while before I would say the deck is just outright unplayable. So, enjoy the deck while you can!





peace,
4eak

[Mystical_Jackass]

The average power of the format only continues to increase. That trend is likely to continue. Affinity will rarely (if ever) be a benefactor, and will continue to trend downwards in proportional power to the rest of the format. I see a decay in the viability of a deck which has little room for improvement or innovation in a format that continues to evolve into a stronger and harsher environment.

You sound like a downer man, lol.. cheer up :P

Remember, it only takes like one card to come out and be broken *cough-tarmagoyf*, so who knows what's in store the next year or two. They need to bring back Tinker :O!!! lol, jk that'd be too broken Tinker --> Forge ftw!!

[Pltnmngl]

@4eak- Do you also mean Tribal when you mention "combat synergy decks?" Because I don't think they'll ever die now. Wizards is catering to them too much. In fact, only more tribes will pop up as the game progresses.

So what do you recommend we invest in while this archetype dies out?

[Mystical_Jackass]

So what do you recommend we invest in while this archetype dies out?


I was thinking maybe the stock market. But yea, I see his point about there being only so much you can do. Artifacts will always be a huge part of MTG, so there's always gonna be plenty of room to grow, and some of these colored artifacts coming out seem interesting but yea.. most dont seem to fit the mana curve of affinity

I'm praying for an artifact creature with removal to take masticore's place ^.^

[4eak]

@ Mystical_Jackass


You sound like a downer man, lol.. cheer up :P

Nothing sad about it. I love playing Affinity. I will admit its weaknesses and the likely future of the deck in this format.


Remember, it only takes like one card to come out and be broken *cough-tarmagoyf*, so who knows what's in store the next year or two. They need to bring back Tinker :O!!! lol, jk that'd be too broken Tinker --> Forge ftw!!

There is always a possibility that they'll make an incredible card for Affinity. I think it is unlikely though. This is a deck that conjures up bad feelings for lots of T2 players. MoE did surprise me though, so you never know.


@ Pltnmngl


Do you also mean Tribal when you mention "combat synergy decks?" Because I don't think they'll ever die now. Wizards is catering to them too much. In fact, only more tribes will pop up as the game progresses.

Tribal included.

We've seen many different tribes actually become playable, but none are dominant. Catering will make no difference. In time (it could be quite a while for some), Combat synergy decks will fade. Even Goblins has been kept in check, and not by any combo winter (the assumed bane of its viability), but rather by the big green creature.

While WoTC clearly wants to make their tribal fans happy, they aren't going to make the same tribal mistakes like "Goblin Lackey" anymore. Even M10 really didn't do 'all' that much for Tribal decks (although, I think the elf lord is the best in the set). I will admit though, I think Goblin Lackey + goblins will always have a shot at winning, but I'm not convinced by any other tribe.

Wizards has, however, continued to create isolated, powerful, and extremely undercosted creatures in many colors. Tarmogoyf and Dark Confidant type creatures are the real future of Legacy. Yes, WotC gives some love to Tribal/synergy decks, but they will continue to produce those 1-2 chase rare creatures each block that are vastly superior to any tribal card as standalone creatures.

Combat Synergy Decks require multiple parts to be effective. They remain consistent (the real strength of a synergy deck), but their ramp is easier to disrupt and too linear. Tribal decks will plateau (some already have). No individual card in these decks are really all that great by themselves; their reliance upon the other pieces in the deck is also a weakness.

I'm very serious in the primer; Synergy is a two-edged sword in decks like Vial Affinity or Tribal decks. There are hardcapped ceilings to innovation and improvement in these archetypes, and it is quite unlikely that they'll be the real benefactors of the so called 'power creep'.

Eventually, Combat Synergy decks just won't be able to catchup to the raw power of random Fish/Zoo hands. Fish/Zoo are wide-open archetypes that transform gracefully, they are flexible, and they are the most likely benefactors of upcoming randomly awesome cards. Fish/Zoo will experience power gains where Combat synergy decks will not.


So what do you recommend we invest in while this archetype dies out?

It isn't the apocalypse, so keep playing Affinity if you enjoy it. If you want to keep your investment value, then buy duals, fetches, and staples (FoW, StP, LED, etc.). Those cards will never be replaced and will always have a home.

It wouldn't be wise to comment too far on what decks will look like in the future. Barring bannings, I think Storm combo and Thresh will always be a wise choice.







peace,
4eak

[Amon Amarth]

I stopped playing Affinity awhile ago. The deck just is merely fair in Legacy at this point in time. It's fine if you're on a budget but it's hardly optimal.

I think that most decks like Goblins won't get too much better like 4eak was saying. Then again, I don't think anyone saw Warren Weirding coming. WotC is full surprises.

[Kilz88]

So I have more obvious and sound deck choices for the upcoming 2009 Legacy worlds, but you also have to take into account your overall comfort with a centain deck. I am very comfortable with this deck therefore making me what to consider it for the coming weekend. I am interested in everyone (especially 4eak's) opinion on it as an option at gencon. After that I would like to examine the sideboard. Right now, based on recent tournament success, I am playing this:

4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Duress
4 Pithing Needle
3 Relic of Progenitus

I feel like the needles and canons have to stay...and my only other options for relic are crypt and heap doll (secret tech!!! lol, seriously though, amazing vs ichorid). I used to play disenchants/krosan grips but recently they have been too late. Also, in recent tournaments both in my area and not, duress/cabal therapy has proven fantastic. Lemme know what you guys think about the deck choice and if you like it, what your board would look like and why? Honestly, one thing I am thinking hard about is combo though. Will it be non-existent due to the mana changes (LED and AdN?). Enough to maybe even cut canonist?

[Creeping Death]

After that I would like to examine the sideboard. Right now, based on recent tournament success, I am playing this:

4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Duress
4 Pithing Needle
3 Relic of Progenitus

I feel like the needles and canons have to stay...and my only other options for relic are crypt and heap doll (secret tech!!! lol, seriously though, amazing vs ichorid).

Honestly, one thing I am thinking hard about is combo though. Will it be non-existent due to the mana changes (LED and AdN?). Enough to maybe even cut canonist?

I played the following list in the board:

3 Doom Blade
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Duress
3 Pithing Needle
3 Relic of Progenitus

Combo is still there, so don't cut the EC! I had the most problems with Goyf in the first game :mad: , but with Doom Blade/Relic after board that problem is slightly less (because you need to draw them to use them).

[DrJones]

Has anyone tried playing "Transmute Artifact" in Affinity? If you sacrifice the right creature, it can be an even cheaper Tinker due to the high converted mana cost of the creatures it runs.

[BattlefieldMedic]

Anyone see any usable cards so far from Zendikar?

Cause I don't :/

[Mystical_Jackass]

Blade of the Bloodchief + vampire aristocrat? :wink:

Its like a badass ravager

[Pltnmngl]

Should I stick it out with Crypt/Relic (I go 2/2 in the sb) or go all out with the new trap that exiles all spells?

[4eak]

Should I stick it out with Crypt/Relic (I go 2/2 in the sb) or go all out with the new trap that exiles all spells?

It isn't all spells (Mindbreak Trap (http://magiccards.info/zen/en/57.html)), but rather all cards from a GY (Ravenous Trap (http://magiccards.info/zen/en/109.html)).

The problems:


The card is conditional and the actual cost is unplayable.
The card isn't an artifact.

Either one of those knocks Ravenous Trap out of contention.




peace,
4eak

[Pltnmngl]

Agreed. I just playtested and was not satisfied enough...

Have you changed your sideboard at all? Maybe use Mindbreak Trap against combo...

[FieryBalrog]

@ Mystical_Jackass



Nothing sad about it. I love playing Affinity. I will admit its weaknesses and the likely future of the deck in this format.



There is always a possibility that they'll make an incredible card for Affinity. I think it is unlikely though. This is a deck that conjures up bad feelings for lots of T2 players. MoE did surprise me though, so you never know.


@ Pltnmngl



Tribal included.

We've seen many different tribes actually become playable, but none are dominant. Catering will make no difference. In time (it could be quite a while for some), Combat synergy decks will fade. Even Goblins has been kept in check, and not by any combo winter (the assumed bane of its viability), but rather by the big green creature.

While WoTC clearly wants to make their tribal fans happy, they aren't going to make the same tribal mistakes like "Goblin Lackey" anymore. Even M10 really didn't do 'all' that much for Tribal decks (although, I think the elf lord is the best in the set). I will admit though, I think Goblin Lackey + goblins will always have a shot at winning, but I'm not convinced by any other tribe.

Wizards has, however, continued to create isolated, powerful, and extremely undercosted creatures in many colors. Tarmogoyf and Dark Confidant type creatures are the real future of Legacy. Yes, WotC gives some love to Tribal/synergy decks, but they will continue to produce those 1-2 chase rare creatures each block that are vastly superior to any tribal card as standalone creatures.


I thought this was a very interesting post indeed, but I had to point out that ironically, in the last few months, Goblins got two of its best creatures ever since Onslaught- Goblin Chieftan and Warren Instigator.

I certainly don't think its a cut and dry matter. Because Affinity also got an excellent lord just 6 months ago with Master of Etherium and no one was expecting that, either. And Elvish Archdruid is another ridiculous lord for elves; Merfolk now run with 12 lords as well.

[4eak]

I was as surprised as anyone to see Instigator (you bring up an older cards like MoE, which was already Affinity long before I said what I did). The cards are good, even for the Legacy power curve. Mind you, I still don't think Goblins has the same stranglehold on the format as it had before, and that is still due to the power of Fish.

More importantly, even if they did choose to make some good cards for combat-synergy decks, they aren't doing so at the same rate as they make them for Fish in general. I think the trend I suggested will continue though. You'll notice that Fish has also picked up some fat loot in the past couple sets.


Fetchlands
Path to Exile
Volcanic Fallout
Noble Hierarch
Knight of the Reliquary
Progenitus
Qasali Pridemage
Maelstrom Pulse
Wild Nacatl


I'd classify Pridemage as more format warping than something like Instigator. Additionally, fetchlands are subtle, but they also will have serious longterm impact our format's ability to splash any random set of colors together at will.

I still think WotC is more likely to create Legacy-viable Fish cards than combat-synergy cards. They may change, but so far, I think they continue that trend.





peace,
4eak

[FieryBalrog]

I was as surprised as anyone to see Instigator (you bring up an older cards like MoE, which was already Affinity long before I said what I did). The cards are good, even for the Legacy power curve. Mind you, I still don't think Goblins has the same stranglehold on the format as it had before, and that is still due to the power of Fish.

More importantly, even if they did choose to make some good cards for combat-synergy decks, they aren't doing so at the same rate as they make them for Fish in general. I think the trend I suggested will continue though. You'll notice that Fish has also picked up some fat loot in the past couple sets.


Fetchlands
Path to Exile
Volcanic Fallout
Noble Hierarch
Knight of the Reliquary
Progenitus
Qasali Pridemage
Maelstrom Pulse
Wild Nacatl


I'd classify Pridemage as more format warping than something like Instigator. Additionally, fetchlands are subtle, but they also will have serious longterm impact our format's ability to splash any random set of colors together at will.

I still think WotC is more likely to create Legacy-viable Fish cards than combat-synergy cards. They may change, but so far, I think they continue that trend.





peace,
4eak

Well, if Naya Zoo is a Fish deck I guess I could buy that, but I don't see how it is. Isn't fish a name for a disruptive blue based weenie deck, like hatebear.dec? The big winner since Alara came out has definitely been Naya Zoo, with Pridemage, Nacatl and Thoctar all specifically targeted at it. I actually believe this as a conscious decision by WotC to up the power of white and green in Legacy and I don' think they'll necessarily be doing the same for blue-based aggro-control.

Blue-based aggro-control only picked up Noble Hierarch and Rhox War Monk as far as I can tell in the past year in the Bant colors.

I do see your point though, but I think we're actually moving on from that phase anyhow, and we can't necessarily expect that level of creature goodies in the future. And The printings in Zendikar and M10 certainly indicate that WotC plans to print great Tribal stuff too.

[4eak]

I do consider Zoo to be Fish. Fish is a very broad term in my mind; and I just call it a highly adaptable deck with Low-CC creatures (often utility creatures) + tempo-based control. If Zoo only pointed burn at the head, then I wouldn't say it was Fish. The fact that it plays control elements (versatile ones at that) makes Zoo an aggro-control deck that fits the bill of fish (even if it isn't the traditional blue). It makes sense that an aggro-control deck that isn't blue based could possibly be successful in this format; burn is a great control strategy in slower environments where undercosted P/T creatures still retain meaning. Its a very aggressive version of Fish.

Something like Affinity is just raw aggro. It looks at damage in terms of a combo deck over several turns; seeking to avoid interaction in large part. Zoo is more equipped to interact (albeit, it is still quite capable of winning before you can make serious use of cards like CB, etc.).

WotC does show interest in making tribal viable. I would like to point out that the vast majority of Tribal will still only be tier 2 or 3, even after the buffs they've received. Most tribes are simply entering the Sea of Fish decks which has long comprised a large portion of Legacy's tier 2/3.





peace,
4eak

[luckme10]

What are your guys thoughts on Vial Affinity using the Thopter Foundry and Sword of the Meek combination heavily used in Extended, and cited as a possible port into legacy by Doug Linn (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/zenlimited/18266_Legacys_Allure_Thoughts_on_Thopters.html):

[stacker]

incompatible with master of etherium

[Black Rain]

Not that I advocate the inclusion of the combo in the deck, but how is it incompatible with MOE, i think infinite(well as much mana as you have to pay for the combo) 2/2 flyers that grow MOE is actually pretty good with MOE, not for affinity but in a shell thats designed to break the combo

[stacker]

how do you plan to attach sword of the meek to a 2/2

[Black Rain]

Touche'.............Maybe im wrong about layering effects(Humility anyone? :eek: ), but I thought as the token comes into play it's initially a 1/1 which you attach to sword and then layer MOE's effet, on second thought :rolleyes: , you're right, still could play Moe after you have about ten tokens

[Zinch]

Well, you always can sacrifice the MoE to the foundry if you want, but obviously is not the greatest combo (I'm referng to the MoE - Sword combination)

[kinda]

I do want the painter combo in the deck, just not sure where. Comments apprectiated.

List 1:
4x Painter's Servant
4x Frogmite
4x Myr Enforcer
4x Arcbound Ravager
4x Master of Etherium
3x Ehtersworn Canonist

3x Grindstone
3x Enlightened Tutor
1x Oblivion Ring
3x Springleaf Drum
4x Cranial Plating
4x Thoughtcast

4x City of Brass
4x Seat of the Synod
4x Ancient Den
4x Vault of Whispers
3x Blinkmoth Nexus

SB:
3x Aether Vial
3x Ornithopter
4x Disciple of the Vault
2x Pithing Needle
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Hanna's Custody


List 2:

4x Frogmite
4x Myr Enforcer
4x Arcbound Ravager
4x Disciple of the Vault
4x Master of Etherium
4x Ornithopter

3x Springleaf Drum
4x Cranial Plating
4x Thoughtcast
3x Fling
3x Shrapnel Blast

3x City of Brass
4x Seat of the Synod
4x Ancient Den
4x Vault of Whispers
4x Great Furnace

SB:
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Pithing Needle
1x Tormod's Crypt
4x Painter's Servant
3x Grindstone
4x Enlightened Tutor

[Jeff Kruchkow]

I do want the painter combo in the deck, just not sure where. Comments apprectiated.

List 1:
4x Painter's Servant
4x Frogmite
4x Myr Enforcer
4x Arcbound Ravager
4x Disciple of the Vault
4x Master of Etherium

3x Grindstone
3x Enlightened Tutor
1x Oblivion Ring
3x Springleaf Drum
4x Cranial Plating
4x Thoughtcast

3x City of Brass
4x Seat of the Synod
4x Ancient Den
4x Vault of Whispers
3x Blinkmoth Nexus

SB:
3x Aether Vial
3x Ornithopter
4x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Pithing Needle
3x Tormod's Crypt
1x Hanna's Custody


List 2:

4x Frogmite
4x Myr Enforcer
4x Arcbound Ravager
4x Disciple of the Vault
4x Master of Etherium
4x Ornithopter

3x Springleaf Drum
4x Cranial Plating
4x Thoughtcast
3x Fling
3x Shrapnel Blast

3x City of Brass
4x Seat of the Synod
4x Ancient Den
4x Vault of Whispers
4x Great Furnace

SB:
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Pithing Needle
1x Tormod's Crypt
4x Painter's Servant
3x Grindstone
4x Enlightened Tutor

seems like a bad idea. The point of a different SB plan is to avoid hate. But servant/stone combo folds to the same hate as affinity.

[kinda]

Huh? Aside from hurkyll's recall and shattering spree the hate is very different. The fling plan is much faster and more overwhelming, while the painter plan is slower but more stable. List one is changed slightly now with canonist md.

[Exospaciac]

I'm gonna be going to a Legacy tournament in a few weeks and will be playing affinity because, well, that's all I can afford to play right now.

Unfortunately, I don't have either Tree of Tales or Krosan Grip, so I'm gonna have to be running either white or red for the 3rd color.

I'm not 100% sure of the metagame, but I know there's a lot of zoo for sure.

I'm working with what I have. This is the deck so far:

// Lands
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
1 [5E] City of Brass
1 [MR] Glimmervoid
4 [MR] Vault of Whispers
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [MR] Ancient Den

// Creatures
4 [MR] Disciple of the Vault
4 [DS] Arcbound Ravager
4 [MR] Myr Enforcer
4 [MR] Frogmite
4 [MR] Ornithopter
4 [DS] Arcbound Worker
3 [ALA] Master of Etherium

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [FD] Cranial Plating
3 [LRW] Springleaf Drum
4 [MR] Thoughtcast

// Sideboard
SB: 3/4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3/4 [TSB] Disenchant

I'm not sure if Disenchant would even be worth running in the SB, seeing as how it's so easy to counter. If I had enough Canonists I'd run 4 over the Disenchants, but I dunno if I'd be able to get them in time.

Engineered Plague is something I thought would be useful against a number of decks. Against tribal decks it's pretty obvious, but it also can really help against Dredge. One plague on horror/spirit keeps them from bringing their Ichorids/Bloodghasts back. Two plagues on zombie can be used too, if you're desperate I guess.

The rest of the SB is pretty obvious. 2/2 split on relic/crypt to help combat needles for dredge. Pithing Needle does so much, it doesn't really explaining.

Besides going for the KGrips and Trees which prolly won't happen, does the deck look alright? Should I run something other than disenchant in the SB? Is plague even worth running, too? Are canonists worth rushing to get?

I'm open to any suggestions.

[kinda]

Master of Etherium is amazing...I don't believe I've ever played him as less then a 5/5...I don't see any reason not to run 4.

[Exospaciac]

What would I take out for a 4th MoE?
I guess I could take out a vial... but sometimes I feel like my hand's clogged with stuff I can't cast. I would rather not go 4/2 vial/drum because even with 4/3 I find myself with thoughtcasts stuck in my hand sometimes.

[kinda]

Either a darksteel citadel or an arcbound worker if not the vial.

[Vacrix]

Has Court Homunculus been tested over Arcbound worker? Or is worker played because it recycles itself?

Also, I've been considering trying out a build with Goblin Welder. Has anything like that been attempted? I'm thinking that eventually, you might as well be sacing your artifact lands to bring back enforcers/MoE's that traded with goyf, countered platings, or even just stuff that gets discarded or burned. There might not be room but I was considering it as a 2-of. Thoughts?

EDIT:

I looked back a page and saw this:


Has anyone tried playing "Transmute Artifact" in Affinity? If you sacrifice the right creature, it can be an even cheaper Tinker due to the high converted mana cost of the creatures it runs.

Thats a good point. Sacrificing a myr enforcer could find something useful like Sphinx of the Steel Wind. Otherwise you could sac maybe a frogmite for a MoE. Seems alright to me, worth exploring. It requires the right creature, but I mean, Sphinx of the Steel Wind? This could be some sort of pseudo-natural order MD combo. It's not dead in your hand either with spring leaf drum, or even drum + transmute artifact off frogmite. With drum and some mana, paying the 5 shouldn't be a problem.

Also, lots of mythic shit is getting printed. Transmute artifact might get something it actually wants to fetch out.


2nd EDIT:

Running it also helps with fetching out key cards for specific matchups. If you can sac frogmite to find Cannonist against combo post board, that could give you enough time to find the win, or pithing needle when you know the opponent is playing EE/Deed. Or crypt vs Ichorid.

Other cards to fetch (possibly):
Sen Triplets
Umezawa's Jitte

[Nihil Credo]

I'm gonna be going to a Legacy tournament in a few weeks

Besides going for the KGrips and Trees which prolly won't happen
I have a personal and thorough understanding of budget concerns, but still, Trees are 50 US-cents each and Grip is less than $2 - and those are StarCityGames prices! If you really want them in your sideboard, I'd be extremely surprised if you couldn't get them.

[KillemallCFH]

Also, I've been considering trying out a build with Goblin Welder. Has anything like that been attempted? I'm thinking that eventually, you might as well be sacing your artifact lands to bring back enforcers/MoE's that traded with goyf, countered platings, or even just stuff that gets discarded or burned. There might not be room but I was considering it as a 2-of. Thoughts?I messed around with a mono-red build with Welder and Magus of the Moon a while ago. It was okayish. Moon in particular was able to catch a lot of people off guard, and Cranial Plating + dudes is still able to win games quickly, with Welder giving you a better long game. However, especially today, I don't really think Welder has too much of a place. Affinity is pretty near dead as is, and the only thing it really has going for it is speed and explosiveness. Welder gives you a bit of resilience, but often at the cost of speed.

[Sevryn]

What do people think about replacing thoughtcast with Dark Confidant? Bob can at least play with vial, swings in a pinch, and potentially gives more card advantage than Thoughtcast if the opponent does not deal with him.

[TotallySweet]

What do people think about replacing thoughtcast with Dark Confidant? Bob can at least play with vial, swings in a pinch, and potentially gives more card advantage than Thoughtcast if the opponent does not deal with him.

1) Reveal Myr Enforcer/Frogmite
2) Make the sadface

[Justin]

1) Reveal Myr Enforcer/Frogmite
2) Make the sadface

Actually taking pain from Confidant is the wrong answer. The real reason that Thoughtcast is superior to Confidant in this deck is that the former give you two cards right away for one mana, while you have to wait a couple turns to net your second card with Confidant. Affinity is an explosive deck that wants to win right away.

[freakish777]

I do consider Zoo to be Fish. Fish is a very broad term in my mind; and I just call it a highly adaptable deck with Low-CC creatures (often utility creatures) + tempo-based control. If Zoo only pointed burn at the head, then I wouldn't say it was Fish. The fact that it plays control elements (versatile ones at that) makes Zoo an aggro-control deck that fits the bill of fish (even if it isn't the traditional blue). It makes sense that an aggro-control deck that isn't blue based could possibly be successful in this format; burn is a great control strategy in slower environments where undercosted P/T creatures still retain meaning. Its a very aggressive version of Fish.

Something like Affinity is just raw aggro. It looks at damage in terms of a combo deck over several turns; seeking to avoid interaction in large part. Zoo is more equipped to interact (albeit, it is still quite capable of winning before you can make serious use of cards like CB, etc.).

WotC does show interest in making tribal viable. I would like to point out that the vast majority of Tribal will still only be tier 2 or 3, even after the buffs they've received. Most tribes are simply entering the Sea of Fish decks which has long comprised a large portion of Legacy's tier 2/3.





peace,
4eak


How are you making this claim? Are you saying Zoo and Fish are playing similar strategies against the metagame, or specifically against Affinity?

Even if the second, what type of metagame are you playing in out of curiosity that would make you come to that conclusion?

The fact of the matter is that Zoo's creatures are independently superior to Fish's creatures, this gives them the ability to trade their creatures with you if they so choose, where as Fish's creatures all rely on each to become big (Fish doesn't have the luxury of trading their Lord of Atlantis with your Enforcer, because they lose not only the card but an additional 3 power and toughness from other creatures, Zoo on the other hand might be fine with trading their Wild Thoctar with your Enforcer if it shrinks your Master of Etherium and isn't taking their only threat off the board).

Have you actually tested this? Or are you just hypothesizing?

[Vacrix]

I messed around with a mono-red build with Welder and Magus of the Moon a while ago. It was okayish. Moon in particular was able to catch a lot of people off guard, and Cranial Plating + dudes is still able to win games quickly, with Welder giving you a better long game. However, especially today, I don't really think Welder has too much of a place. Affinity is pretty near dead as is, and the only thing it really has going for it is speed and explosiveness. Welder gives you a bit of resilience, but often at the cost of speed.

Nice. Can you post a list?

[Exospaciac]

I played in a tournament yesterday and went 3-3.
I won every single die roll, but apparently it didn't really help too much.
Here's the list I used:


// Lands
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
1 [5E] City of Brass
1 [MR] Glimmervoid
4 [MR] Vault of Whispers
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [MR] Tree of Tales

// Creatures
4 [MR] Disciple of the Vault
4 [DS] Arcbound Ravager
4 [MR] Myr Enforcer
4 [MR] Frogmite
4 [MR] Ornithopter
4 [DS] Arcbound Worker
3 [ALA] Master of Etherium

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [FD] Cranial Plating
3 [LRW] Springleaf Drum
4 [MR] Thoughtcast

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip


This is all from memory, so sorry if there are some inaccuracies.

Round 1 was against Survival. 0-2
Before this tournament I had no idea what the Survival deck actually did.
Game 1 I play out some dudes and a plating and get him to 3 on turn 4, but he gets the shapeshifter-Akroma-Phage action going on the following turn and I die.

I board +4 Pithing Needle +2 Crypt +1 Relic for -4 Worker -1 Vial -2 Enforcer

Game 2 I see none of my sideboarded cards even after a mulligan. He goes Vial turn 1 then Forces my next two plays and combos off shortly thereafter.

Round 2 was against Dredge. 0-2
Game 1 I get out turn 2 Ravager but he dredges half his library the following turn. He sneaks some bridge tokens through my ravager and Woodfall Primus + therapy rapes me.

I board +2 Crypt +2 Relic +3 Plagues -4 Workers -2 Enforcers -1 Vial

I mull to 6 but see a hand with Crypt and Relic. Expecting only to see Pithing Needles, I run the Relic out first, but it gets hit with Ancient Grudge, which i was not expecting. Being land light, I'm forced to play Tormod's to get enough artifacts on the board so I can start playing Frogmites. It doesn't really matter though, as he flashes back the grudge (only card in his yard) and rips a dredger. I get EPlague on Horror but he doesn't even need the Ichorids to win. The game ends shortly thereafter.

Round 3 was against GBw Rock. 2-1
Game 1 I explode with something like land, thopter, thopter, drum, frog. The first play I see from him is Veteran Explorer, which I have to read. I ignore it and fly over with a plated Thopter turns 3 and 4. He finds only another Explorer and dies next turn.

Not knowing what to expect, I just board +4 Needles +2 Grips for -4 Workers -1 Vial -1 Enforcer.

Game 2 I mull to 6 and keep an okay-ish hand. I get turn 2 frog and he gets the explorers again. I attack into one of them and he gets a ton of land, then starts playing a bunch of Kitchen Finks. He then deeds my board and wins. I never saw any of my needles or grips.

Game 3 I manage to lead with Thopter again. He goes Forest, Explorer. I find another plating turn 3 and start bashing. He has no land drops past his first. I play Etherium and beat him for lethal.

Round 4 was against Dragon Stompy. 2-1

Before game 1 he tells me he was given this deck before the tourney and didn't even have a sideboard to go with it, so I told him I'd hold out on sideboarding to make it fair.
Game 1 I get first turn Vial. He gets first turn Trinisphere off of City + SSG. I manage to get a guy out every turn through Vial (Worker, Ravager, MoE) and slowly overwhelm him.

Game 2 he goes first turn Taurean Mauler. Uh oh. I try to play as few spells as possible and get a Ravager out turn 2. He plays a Pit Dragon and starts beating my face. I'm at 5 when I finally get a Ravager big enough to trade with the mauler. He plays another Pit Dragon and a Gathan raiders and it's onto game 3.

Game 3 I lead with Vial again. He gets turn 2 Arc Slogger but doesn't have anything else and I fly over him with Thopter + plating.

Round 5 was against Fish 1-2
For this die roll, he rolled 20, then I rolled 20, then he rolled 12, and I rolled 13. Pretty lol.

Game 1 I'm able to barf my entire hand onto the table and he dies after only Dazing one of my Ravagers, wasting a land, and playing an adept, or something.

I board +3 Plagues +4 Needles for -4 Workers -2 Enforcer -1 Vial

Game 2 my hand is something like Vial, Drum, EPlague, EPlague, Citadel, random land, Frogmite. He Spell Pierces both my turn 1 Vial and my turn 2 Drum. I then proceed to topdeck 2 Disciples and die to Jitte shenanigans a few turns later.

Game 3 I keep another hand with a Plague. I manage to play out a Frogmite turn 2 and get the Plague down turn 3, killing a Silvergill. Next turn I get out a plating and start to eat away at his life. He wastes a land or two, then manages to stabilize with a few Lords and a cursecatcher, which I stupidly trade the Frogmite for after realizing that there were in fact 2 Lords in play. I draw no more creatures the next turn and pass. His next turn he explodes in a way that made me, an affinity player, blush. Something like Silvergill, LoA, Sovereign, LoA. Reejery quickly doubled his board and I died to a swarm of 5/5s even through EPlague.

After the match he tells me that he too is an Affinity player, and he knows the importance of landing Vial/Drum, which is why he was so quick to counter them in G2.

Round 6 was against Lands. 2-1
Game 1 I manage to get a nice start through Drum + Thopter. He gets out a Maze of Ith but I keep my creature count high and a topdecked plating ends it quickly.

I board +4 Needles +2 Crypts +1 Relics -4 Workers -1 Vial -2 Enforcer

Game 2 he manages to lock me out of the game rather quickly, with double Maze of Ith AND Tabernacle, then setting up Academy Ruins + EE AND Crucible + Waste. Holy crap. He beats me down with like a 7/7 Mishra's Factory vs. my lone Citadel, Springleaf Drum, and Disciple.

Game 3 was extremely close. I mulligan, but manage to get a decent start with Thopter + Drum and Vial. I play Crypt in order to keep some pressure on him. He plays EE = 0 and blows my Thopter and Crypt up. I Needle on Maze but don't have anything to abuse it yet. He starts to crop rotate, intuition, and loam for all his pieces. I have another Needle in my hand, which I am tempted to put on either EE or Academy Ruins, but I decide to wait it out. My board is something like MoE, Needle on Maze, Drum, Vial, and a ton of land. He crop rotates for Glacial Chasm, which scares me at first, but he lets it die and EEs my board for 1. I then rip Cranial Plating, slam down the Needle on Maze, and swing for exactly lethal with MoE + plating.


Overall I guess it wasn't that bad. I didn't really prepare for the tourney so I wasn't expecting to do GREAT.
Engineered Plague sucks. Like really bad. It's only good against Goblins and maybe combo elves, neither of which I played against. I guess Chalice could go in that slot, or maybe even more graveyard hate.

Also, I kinda disliked siding the Workers out. They're such good creatures, but they're the only logical thing to take out against most decks.
Another problem I had with boarding is the fact that I would seemingly run outta creatures. I'm considering boarding out 1-2 Platings instead of Enforcers in the future, if only to have more threats.

I woulda ran the 4th MoE over an Enforcer, but I couldn't get one. I did like having 7 accelerants; a 1st turn worker or lone thopter just doesn't cut it most of the time.

I know I messed up a few times (and got really lucky), but overall it was fun, and I learned a lot.

[raudo]

Yes thanks for the report!

Master of Etherium is really dangerous. I have played four of them. One annoying thing in this deck is that it is sometimes too hard to find the much needed blue mana. Just can't figure out how to get some more blue resources in.

[Pastorofmuppets]

What's the consensus on Heap Doll as savage tech vs Ichorid and Reanimator?
http://magiccards.info/shm/en/253.html
Also, why do people run Blinkmoth Nexus over Factory?

[alderon666]

What's the consensus on Heap Doll as savage tech vs Ichorid and Reanimator?
http://magiccards.info/shm/en/253.html
Also, why do people run Blinkmoth Nexus over Factory?

More like savage narrow.

It's even decent against Loam... but against other kind of recursions it looks subpar.

[Nidd]

What's the consensus on Heap Doll as savage tech vs Ichorid and Reanimator?
http://magiccards.info/shm/en/253.html
Also, why do people run Blinkmoth Nexus over Factory?
1. It flies.
2. Nostalgia.

[Pneumatiker]

Also, why do people run Blinkmoth Nexus over Factory?

To have an evasive creature to carry the Plating.

[Nidd]

To have an evasive creature to carry the Plating.
And it can carry the +1/+1 counters from a Ravager.

Yeah, Nexus is much better than Factory when it comes to Vial Affinity.

[1maarten1]

Im thinking about playing this deck again, but im not sure if i want to play full aggro, or a more aggro/controlish list with 8 spheres and maybe ethersworn adjunctor. What do you think is a better choice for the current metagame??

And somebody has a nice list for me to start testing with? I looked over at the thread of 8-ball but that is very old and outdated so i thought i could try it out here :laugh:

And what do you think about the rumours about the new sets? They are sounding like artifact sets so maybe.......? :rolleyes:

~Maarten

[raudo]

So far what I have played this deck now the wins come from Ornithopter - Plating combo. Often I have hoped just to get one flying creature to finish quickly my opponent. So I have considered to add couple of Nexuses back to deck.

Ravager and Disciple of Vault have not been as effective I hoped for. I think I'll maybe do some testing without them. Hmm.. any ideas for cards to try out?

[Exospaciac]

Has anyone ever tried Winter Orb in the SB against certain decks? I'm trying to fill the last 3-4 slots in my sideboard and cannot get CotV before the next tournament I'll be attending.
My current sideboard is this:

4 Krosan Grip
4 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Engineered Plague

Since Engineered Plague sucks, I'm thinking about just straight swapping it for Winter Orbs. I'm kinda scared of lands.dec and don't really have anything else to put in these slots. Or should I just put in more GY hate cuz the orbs might be too narrow?
Or is there any other tech I should be aware of?

[Exospaciac]

I just went 2-4 at a tournament Sunday. I'm blaming bad luck on some of my draws though.

I used this list.

// Lands
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
1 [5E] City of Brass
1 [MR] Glimmervoid
4 [MR] Vault of Whispers
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [MR] Tree of Tales

// Creatures
4 [MR] Disciple of the Vault
4 [DS] Arcbound Ravager
3 [MR] Myr Enforcer
4 [MR] Frogmite
4 [MR] Ornithopter
4 [DS] Arcbound Worker
4 [ALA] Master of Etherium

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [FD] Cranial Plating
3 [LRW] Springleaf Drum
4 [MR] Thoughtcast

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [4E] Winter Orb
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip

And a small summary of my matches:

Rd 1 vs Dragon Stompy 0-2
Game 1 he hit me for 16 with a flying pit dragon on turn 3. SB +4 Needles -3 Workers -1 Vial
Game 2 he went all in and Shattering Spree'd me for 4 on turn 3 then topdecked Volcanic Fallout and Jitte.

Rd 2 vs Zoo 0-2
I kept a one land hand that would be pretty good had I drawn a 2nd land. Something like Seat, Thopter, Frog, Worker, Plating, Ravager, Disciple. I fail to draw any land and die a slow and painful death. SB +4 Needles -1 Worker -1 Vial
Game 2 he paths and/or burns every single threat I play, including 2 MoEs, an Enforcer, and 2 Frogmites. Wow. T1 lavamancer from him is pretty good. Lategame I topdeck a Thoughtcast but it hits two lands. Irony, I guess. His Goyf owns me fast.

Rd 3 vs Reanimator 2-0
He spends most of the first game brainstorming, fetching, and entombing, but never actually gets any fat on the board. SB +3 Crypt +1 Relic -3 Workers -1 Drum
Game 2 he gets out Sphinx of the Steel Wind turn 3. I'm able to kill him the next turn before he can swing via ravager/disciple shenanigans.

Rd 4 vs Faerie Stompy 2-0
Game 1 he plays a grand total of 2 islands and a Pithing Needle. no SB
Game 2 he gets out T1 Thorn of Amethyst... which does absolutely nothing against me. I get a T3 8/8 MoE. This game also ends very quickly.

Rd 5 vs Tempo Thresh 0-2
Game 1 I put on some early pressure but he gets out a goose and a goofy as defense. I try to Thoughtcast into more threats but hit... two lands. He gets me to 8 then burns me out with bolt, bolt, fire. +3 Crypt +1 Relic -3 Workers -1 Drum
Game 2 he lands turn 3 Trygon Predator. I try to beef up an Ornithopter to block it but he Ices it and kills it. I lose my board slowly but surely for the next 5 turns.

Rd 6 vs Bant 0-2
Game 1 I keep a nice quick hand with 2 Thoughtcast for gas. Turn 3 I'm able to double Thoughtcast and hit 3 lands and an Ornithopter. Awesome. He overwhelms me a few turns later after I keep drawing lands and Disciples.
At this point I didn't care about winning, I just wanted to see if Winter Orbs would affect him, so I went -4 Workers -1 Enforcer -1 Plating -1 Drum +4 Needle +3 Winter Orb
I get T1 Needle on Pridemage T2 Orb. He gets a T1 Heirarch, which I forgot he had. It slows him down a little bit, but he's still able to get T3 War Monk vs my frog and worker. He plows two MoEs which lets me hang on for a while but it doesn't really matter. I end the game with 8 lands on the table.


It seems like so many decks have bigger creatures than we do. I almost want to sideboard some kind of removal. Maybe Smother or Doom Blade as a 3 of?
Or maybe I'm just sick of my MoEs getting plowed so quickly.

[Ozymandias]

I saw that game versus the Predator. You might have been better off blocking with a thopter first, and then sacking, rather than the other way around. I mean, he would have had Fire to kill the first thopter, and you lose to bolt regardless, but you do get to modular off your worker first to beat Fire if you are also willing to ravage stuff

If you want an extra beefy dude or two, you could shave some stuff (1 vial would be first) to put in the BROOOOOOOOOOOOOOODSTAR. You do need like 7 other artifacts to make it work, though.

If you want some removal, consider Shrapnel Blast, which has a good shot at ending a lot of the format's dudes, and gives you reach to boot.

[Exospaciac]

Yeah, I figuerd that if he had removal it wouldn't have mattered much anyway.
I would run Shrapnel Blast but I'm only 3 colors. I dropped red for green to run SB Krosan Grips.

I might just try 3-4 Perish in the SB. All the creatures I really have problems with are at least half green.

[schorchi]

Hi!

I tried this one and till now it worked quite good.
I had problems with ANT and AggroLoam, but take a look to my list:

Affinity

Mainboard:
4 Ornithopter
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Frogmite
4 Master of Etherium
4 Thoughtcast
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Path to Exile
4 Springleaf Drum
4 Cranial Plating
2 Thopter Foundry
//42

Lands:
4 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Ancient Den
1 Island
1 Swamp
//18

Sideboard:
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Engineered Plague
3 Pithing Needle
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
//15

[bakofried]

The only things I don't like are the 4 Paths and 2 Foundries. Foundries because Ravager does it better, and the Paths because it requires the white splash.

[Exospaciac]

I'm not sure how much I like that list.

Are you usually able to get out of the gates quick enough with only 12 artifact lands and 4 accelerants, especially if they daze/spell pierce your springleaf drum? Also, do you miss Vials at all?

Does Wasteland give you problems? No Darksteel Citadels seems pretty ballsy.

How useful has Thopter Foundry really been? It seems like an okay Ravager 5-6, but it has no immediate effect on the board, and it's pretty mana intensive... but it does give you more plating targets.
I take it most of your games are won through fliers + plating? With 4 Nexus, 4 Thopter, and the foundries, you're bound to get a few airborne cranial hits in.

Is Path to Exile really that good? Do you like it more than another creature like Enforcer?

And last but not least: how can you stand to have Engineered Plagues in your SB? I thought they were complete garbage. Is Goblins really popular in your metagame?

[schorchi]

Hi,

nowadays the walking creatures are much stronger than Frogmite, Arcbound Worker and even Myr Enforcer. So the plan ist to win with flying creatures like Thopter, Nexus and Foundry tokens attached with Cranial Plating.

I played red instread of white for Shrapnel Blast instead of Path to exile before. Shrapnel Blast was strong as a finisher for the win, but I lost many games against something like Tarmogoyf. I miss Shrapnel Blast i bit because of his finishing moves, bus Path To Exile costs one less to play and you don't need to sacrifice a permanent. Above that it deals with goyfs and other nasty things and it will give you an island or swamp is necessary (it occurs sometimes that you don't have a drum, but want to play thoughtcast or master, so exile a thopter or a foundry token if it gets you in an better position)

Engineered Plague is good against goblins yes, but also against merfolk and Ichorid (horror,...). Also splashing white brings you the Ethersworn Canonist which is in my opinion the best answer you can get in an affinity deck against storm-combo. He is an artifact, beats for 2 and don's bother your plan at all.

[bakofried]

Actually, most Ad Nauseum lists run a good deal of bounce between the main and the side, the most popular of which is Chain of Vapor; so Ethersworn Canonist, though nice, is actually trumped by Chalice of the Void.

[BreathWeapon]

Yeah, I figuerd that if he had removal it wouldn't have mattered much anyway.
I would run Shrapnel Blast but I'm only 3 colors. I dropped red for green to run SB Krosan Grips.

I might just try 3-4 Perish in the SB. All the creatures I really have problems with are at least half green.

Perish is awesome, I've been SBing out Thoughtcast for Perish vs BANT and Zoo for awhile and it just wrecks their strategy.

[bakofried]

Sounds like it would. How much does Perish improve the MU?

[BreathWeapon]

Hard to say, it definitely has more of an impact on Zoo than Bant just because of the lack of disruption.

[linux-ll-]

Actually after years I get my Affinity complete foil and want to play it again...
What you you guys think about Basilisk Collar?
It makes our useless creature usefull and its an artifact... the only problem is that it is really mana intesiv!

[kilukru]

Well, the way I see it, Basilisk collar main effect on the game would be to gain you a turn witht the lifelink, deadthouch dosnt do much for me, because if your in need of DT with affinity, your loosing anyway.

And i still much rather Fling something in the face of my opponent then gain life for an extra turn of attack.

[bakofried]

Considering the recent victory of Reanimator, would it be prudent to sub out the Arcbound Workers for Heap Dolls? It would give us game G1 vs. Ichorid on top of taking out possible threats.

[Exospaciac]

It's been discussed before, but we already have a pretty good matchup against reanimator and dredge, especially after sideboarding. Against Dredge we have an instant creature sac outlet and 3-4 Crypts, and against Reanimator we have thopters and Ravager shenanigans to block their creatures and to prevent them from gaining life with Sphinx of the Steel Wind (block, sac before damage).
Also, in the matchups Heap Doll DOESN'T help against, it's just a 1/1 for 1, which is very very unimpressive. Arcbound Worker is more than just a 1/1 for 1, it can be +2/+2 for Ravager or can even take a Ravager's counters and continue to transfer them between creatures. Making a Frogmite a 3/3 or an Enforcer a 5/5 can affect the game more than it seems at first.
To me, the deck just doesn't feel right without Arcbound Workers. Even the 2/2 for W from Shards block doesn't compare to the trusty Arcbound Worker.

I GUESS if you're expecting heavy dredge AND reanimator it could be used, but I myself would never want to use anything but workers.

[bakofried]

But you can't hate out Reanimator the same way you would hate out dredge - If you could, then it wouldn't have made as big as a splash. Heap Doll also helps to prevent Stax from getting a Waste-Lock on you with Crucible. Maybe Arcbound is still better, but I'm thinking that at the very least, a good amount of testing is in order.

[bakofried]

Just a question: Would a 3-2 split of Crypt/Relic be wise, so as to avoid Pithing Needle killing us? Or are 4 Tormod's Crypts enough hate?
Also: My manabase looks like this right now:
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Seat
4 Vault
4 Tree
2 Nexus
And i'm wondering if I should switch the Nexuses to Glimmervoids. Thoughts?

[Exospaciac]

Dredge doesn't play Pithing Needle (or at least the lists I've seen don't), so there's no real reason for the split.
I guess if you want you can go 3/1 crypts/relics. You'll more often than not want crypts to help you get everything going faster, so having 1 relic shouldn't be too bad.

I'd switch the Nexuses out for rainbow lands definitely, unless your sideboard has little to no non-artifacts. I have 1 City of Brass and 1 Glimmervoid only because that combo of rainbow lands is the best to open up with if you have a good hand with only those two lands.

On another note, I played in a tournament today and did horribly, going 2-4 (7-10 altogether). Part of it was bad luck and good hate, but my playing wasn't as good as it could have been either. I'll post a small report tomorrow.
I played against ProBant x2, Lands, Merfolk, Zoo, and Eva Green.

I'm thinking about either not playing Affinity any more or playing a radically different build. This build is really good but it just craps out on me too much... as much as it hurts me to say it, I think I'll be putting this deck on the sidelines till "Mirrodin 2" comes out. I love playing this deck, but the hands that aren't broken just can't stand up to the power level of the other decks' average hands. :/

[Exospaciac]

Alright, here's my abysmal report from yesterday.

Round 1 vs. CounterTop Bant Progenitus thing whatever it's called nowadays. 1-2
I believe I win the die roll here and swarm his board quickly with frogs, thopters, and an MOE. I don't really remember this match.

Sideboarding: +4 Perish +3 Grip -4 Thoughtcast -2 Enforcer -1 Worker

Game 2 he goes Noble Heirarch turn 1 into turn 2 Trygon Predator. Next turn he drops a Pridemage. Awesome.

Game 3 was really good. He manages to get a huge board presence of 2 Goyfs, RWM, and 2 Heirarchs while countering and STPing all my big threats. I'm down to 11 life and topdeck a Perish to wipe his board clean. I swing with a Disciple and an Arcbound Worker for a few turns while frantically searching for a real source of damage. He plays both CB and Top but I grip both before he has a chance to use them. I draw lands while he gets Heirarch into NO. Next turn he attacks me then plays a Goyf and NOs for Pridemage... then lols that he didn't do that precombat and kill me. I can still win if I topdeck Perish or Ravager... and don't.


Round 2 is against Bant again. 1-2
Game 1 I get turn 1 Vial and curve out nicely with Worker into Ravager into MoE from the Vial and drop a bunch of free frogs in the meantime. He dies on turn 5 without doing much of anything.

Sideboarding: same as last round

Game 2 he gets turn 1 Noble Heirarch into turn 2 AND turn 3 Trygon Predator. Really? I Perish them both away but he plays a Pridemage into my board of 3 lands and it finishes me easily.

Game 3 he gets turn 1 Noble Heirarch into turn 2 AND turn 3 Trygon Predator. Really? TWO games in a row?


Round 3 is against Lands. 2-1
I win the die roll and go land, thopter, drum, worker. He plays first turn exploration, Tabernacle. That stalls me long enough for him to get a pair of Mazes and lock me out of the game.

Sideboarding: +4 Pithing Needle +3 Krosan Grip -1 AEther Vial -3 Arcbound Worker -2 Thoughtcast -1 Myr Enforcer

He goes first turn Land, Mox, Mox, Crucible, second turn Smokestack, then proceeds to laugh. I get a 1st turn vial thopter, 2nd turn frog frog disciple, 3rd turn plating, and 4th turn MoE and Needle on Maze of Ith, then kill him the following turn.

Game 3 he drops EE on 1 and 0 early on. I try my best to play around them and drop needle when he only has the mana to activate one. He blows it for 1 and takes out a drum and a disciple. Next turn MoE comes and he scoops.


Round 4 was against Eva Green. 1-2
Game 1 we trade dudes for a while, but I end up drawing 3 MoEs and a Ravager over the course of the game and manage to overpower him.

Sideboarding: +3 Perish +4 Pithing Needle -1 AEther Vial -2 Arcbound Worker -3 Thoughtcast -1 Enforcer

Game 2 he gets out an early Jitte on a Nighthawk and I have no way to deal with it.

Sideboarding: -1 Perish -1 Thoughtcast -1 Enforcer +3 Krosan Grip

Game 3 I get mull to 6 but get a decent start with a frog, worker, thopter, and a plating. He Snuff Outs one guy, then drops Deed and blows my board. I see 0 sideboard cards.


Round 5 was against U/G Merfolk. 0-2
He wins the die roll. I don't really remember this game. I think he gets out a few Goyfs and Lords and just outraces me.

Sideboarding: +4 Pithing Needle +3 Krosan Grip -4 Arcbound Worker -1 Myr Enforcer -2 Thoughtcast

Game 2 was very tense. We both get early vials set on 2 and 3. I get out a huge MoE and he grips it, but I get a second and he has no way to deal with it. His board is 2 Goyfs, 2 Silvergills, and 2 Mutavault and some other lands. I have MoE, 3 Ravagers, and I think a Frogmite. After a few attack phases, tt comes down to me having MoE, a 7/7 Ravager, and Disciple, and him with only 2 Goyfs and 2 Mutavaults at 8 life. He has one card in hand. If that one card is anything but a creature, I can win by swinging with both my big guys and forcing him to block. I decide to take the risk because, what the hell, I'm not coming back in this tournament anyway, and his last card in hand is a LoA, enabling him to block and swing back with just enough to kill me. I also see no sideboard cards in this game.


Round 6 was against Zoo. 2-1.
Game 1 he wins the roll and gets turn 2 Gaddock Teeg. I then just lose because I misread it and thought it affected ALL spells. Afterwards I pick it up and lol at my mistake.

Sideboarding: +4 Pithing Needle +4 Perish -4 Thoughtcast -1 AEther Vial -3 Workers

Game 2 I get out turn 1 drum into turn 2 Platinged thopter and swing. He gets a Jitte but I have the needle. Knight of the Reliquary gets Perished away and we go to G3.

Game 3 he gets a fat early Goyf and burns my Frog out to make him a 4/5. I let him swing at me a few times, even though I have the Perish in hand. He finally plays out a second Goyf and I perish them both away. I play out MoE and start chunkin away at his life. He plays KotR but it eats a second Perish.


Perish was awesome, but apparently not awesome enough to win me all the games I drew it in.
This deck has absolutely no way to deal with turn 2 predator into literally any other relevant play the next turn. In short, Trygon Predator is just as bad as Pridemage for this deck. I think maybe a little change to this deck is needed... We need more ways to block that stupid thing.

Maybe it's time to seriously consider Roterothopter as a 2 or 3 of?

As I stated in my last post, I think I'm gonna be putting Affinity on the sidelines till Mirrodin 2 comes out. Too many decks run relevant hate cards that just ruin us. Trygon Predator, Pridemage, and Shattering Spree are just good enough to make this deck unplayable.

[bakofried]

Yeah, I'm hoping Mirrodin 2 throws us a few bones as well. Should be interesting, so say the least.

[Exospaciac]

I'm considering playing this deck again next Sunday if I can't get Dredge built before then (I'm really close, trade me stuff!). I really want to try something a bit different though.

I've lost more games to Trygon Predator than to anything else (okay... except maybe poor topdecks). So I'm going to fit as many fliers in as possible without ruining the consistency of the deck.

Here's what I propose:

// Lands
3-4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
2 [5E] City of Brass
1 [MR] Glimmervoid
4 [MR] Vault of Whispers
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
3-4 [MR] Tree of Tales

// Creatures
4 [MR] Disciple of the Vault
4 [DS] Arcbound Ravager
2 [MR] Myr Enforcer
2 [MR] Somber Hoverguard/Qumulox/BROOOOOOOOOODSTAR/Thopter Foundry?
4 [MR] Frogmite
4 [MR] Ornithopter
4 [HL] Roterothopter
4 [ALA] Master of Etherium

// Spells
3 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [FD] Cranial Plating
3 [LRW] Springleaf Drum
4 [MR] Thoughtcast

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TE] Perish
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip

No, it's not terribly different from the "standard" list, but I think it's different enough to spark a little discussion.
I dunno what blue flier would be best in the 2-of slot. Hoverguard straight up trades with Predator, but any removal at all kills it. Qumulox is a nice middle-of-the-road dude (jellyfish?), but I dunno if 5/4 is big enough. Maybe I'm just too used to having 8/8s or 7/2s on turn 3. Broooooooooodstar seems pretty unworkable (10cc?!), but I guess I'll never know till I try it. Thopter Foundry... I don't think it'll be good, but there have been times where I just needed a sac outlet to win and couldn't draw Ravager.
Or am I missing a creature? I thought about Esperzoa, but it just doesn't seem worth it, and it's susceptible to way too much stuff, and Glaze Field just blows.

Thoughts? I'd really want to get this deck a little polished before Sunday if I must play it.

[Exospaciac]

Finally, a tournament with some decent results!
I played at Knight Ware today at a 25ish person tournament for store credit, and got 3rd/4th winning $30 credit.
I was oh so close to playing Dredge (I was 6 cards away from completing the whole deck) but I just couldn't find what I needed.

So I decided to roll with Affinity again.

I thought about using the maindeck I had posted in the post above, but decided just to swap out the Workers for 4 Roterothopters and not change anything else.

My list:

4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Tree of Tales
4 Darksteel Citadel
1 City of Brass
1 Glimmervoid

4 AEther Vial
3 Springleaf Drum
4 Cranial Plating
4 Thoughtcast

4 Ornithopter
4 Roterothopter
4 Frogmite
4 Arcbound Ravager
3 Myr Enforcer
4 Master of Etherium
4 Disciple of the Vault

Overall, I went 3-1-1 in the swiss, facing UG Ally/Mill (2-0), ANT (0-2), Merfolk (2-0), EvaGreen (2-0) and drawing the last round; in the quarterfinals, I faced mono black Vampires (2-0) and Aggro-Loam, which owned me so hard I still can't walk straight.

I'll write out a full report later if someone wants to see it, but I'll just mention a few things for now.

Bakofried, you were definitely right about replacing the Arcbound Workers, though Heap Doll would have still been as awful in every single matchup I played. Roterothopters were by far and away the MVP today. Having multiple fliers on the board was valuable against so many decks. Every time I drew a Roterothopter, I was never upset that it wasn't an Arcbound Worker. They've earned a permanent place in my Affinity build for sure.

Aggro Loam is probably almost as bad of a matchup as combo is for us. The deck I was playing against had Chalice, EE, Seismic Assault, Pulverize (postboard) AND Devastating Dreams. What the hell am I supposed to do against that?

I actually never saw a single sideboard card the whole tournament, so I can't comment on how effective any of them were. I never really sided in a lot of cards except against Aggro Loam, but that match is pretty hopeless anyway.

So does anyone want a full report? Any other comments or suggestions?

[from Cairo]

Sideboarding: -4 Thoughtcast

Is this the standard? That the 4 Thoughtcast come out in most every match?

I understand that they aren't Artifacts and you don't want to be flooded with non-Artifacts in Affinity, but it also seems like when they are your only draw engine, that having ~2-3 of them still in the deck would increase your ability to find your SB cards. In alot of your match ups you mention not finding the hate you needed.

I'm ignorant in terms of Affinity SBing, so I could be completely off base, I was just looking for clarification.

[Exospaciac]

I'll admit that taking out all 4 Thoughtcasts might have been a mistake in some cases. The best choice is probably to take out 2-3 Thoughtcasts and some combination of Platings or Enforcers. There have been times where I just want to Thoughtcast into more artifacts but just end up with a handful of overpriced colored cards I can't afford to, or find the time to cast. This REALLY hurts if you're already paying 1U or 2U for Thoughtcast and drawing into the 3cc sideboard cards with them.

It happens way too often where I'll draw all my sideboard cards but won't draw ANYTHING relevant after that, then I'm dead on the board. At least if you're not siding out threats, you have a better chance of drawing into them, rather than just drawing into card draw or into more SB stuff.

If I'm SBing Pithing Needles or Crypts, I'll usually take out 2-3 Roterothopters, a Frog, and maybe a Plating or Enforcer (depending on the deck I'm facing) for them. Those are cheap enough to where they won't disrupt the normal flow of the deck.

[AznSeal]

i really want to play affinity and im new to legacy. I know affinity can be easily hated. Is it still viable?

[Vacrix]

It depends on the meta. I believe any deck in the Established Forum is still viable in the right environment. In general, though, its probably best you pick up a deck thats harder to hate if thats what you're worried about.

[kicks_422]

It lost a lot of punch with the M10 rules of combat damage not going on the stack anymore. Combat tricks abusing damage on the stack was a pretty big part of Affinity's game.

However, if you're thinking of building Affinity for budget reasons, and you still have the nostalgia of playing this deck, sure, why not. It's not like people run Energy Flux in their SB.

[Exospaciac]

I'm gonna say yes, but barely.
Affinity's good in a metagame with little (preferably no) combo. It has good (or at least winnable) matchups against Zoo, Merfolk, Reanimator, and most Countertop decks as long as they aren't packing any crazy hate. It also has a decent Dredge game, since it packs 4 maindeck ways to remove bridges, but game 1 is still pretty bad.
ANT is 95% unwinnable, as is Belcher. Aggro Loam is also a nightmare; our only hope is that we manage to stick an Enforcer, MoE, or Qumulox and ride it to victory before they can stabilize.

This is what I'd recommend for a maindeck:

4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
3-4 Tree of Tales
4 Darksteel Citadel
1-2 City of Brass
1 Glimmervoid

3-4 AEther Vial
3 Springleaf Drum
4 Cranial Plating
4 Thoughtcast

4 Ornithopter
4 Roterothopter
4 Frogmite
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Master of Etherium
1-3 Myr Enforcer
0-2 Qumulox/Thopter Foundry


It's pretty much gotten to the point where Arcbound Worker is useless and even Frogmite has trouble getting in without the help of a Plating or MoE. You really want to focus on getting an early flier and swinging in for a ton of Cranial'ed damage and/or puking your hand onto the table by turn 3.

The sideboard is a meta call obviously, but this is what I've been running:

4 Perish
3 Krosan Grip
4 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus

Some of the Bant and Zoo decks are closer to 50-50 preboard, but Perish completely wrecks them postboard. KGrip helps vs. Countertop and Stax decks obviously. I mostly use it as an anti Chalice and anti CB.
Pithing Needle is extremely necessary. It shuts down so much ridiculous crap against you. Pernicious Deed, Jitte, Wasteland, Mutavault, etc. You can't leave home without 4 Pithing Needles, IMO.
3/1 Crypt/Relic split just cuz if I draw one late game I definitely don't mind the cantrip, and it helps against needles I guess.

A few quick notes:
-Be very scared of Trygon Predator. This is one of the reasons we run 8 cheap fliers. He will completely wreck you. If you know you'll be facing Bant/Thresh with Predators, I'd run 2 Qumulox and 2 City of Brass over a Tree of Tales or Darksteel Citadel in the list I posted.
-When sideboarding, don't be afraid to take out Thoughtcasts. I usually take out 2-3 Thoughtcasts when sideboarding in either of my 3cc colored cards. You REALLY don't want to dilute the deck with colored spells, even ones as busted as Thoughtcast.
-Be prepared to have the deck just crap out on you sometimes. I've played games against decks like Goblins where I come out faster than them, then turn around and play WW Kithkin jank and get roflstomped mulling down to 4 and playing nothing but accelerants and 0/2s.

I'm holding my breath and hoping that the next block brings Affinity some goodies, but for now I'd label it as just barely competitive. In the right metagame, though, it can actually be really good, but just be prepared for random losses to your own deck and to vicious hate.

[GoldenCid]

Is vial indeed necesary here??

[Exospaciac]

Even though it may not look like Vial is so important, with only half our creatures actually being vialed in, it is just as important, if not more important than Springleaf Drum. Vial makes our favorable matches (mostly blue decks) more favorable. Being able to vial in MoE and Ravager to skew combat math is very much worth the vial slots too, in my opinion.

[Combo Winter]

I still play 4 workers over roterothopter and have 3 goyf main in the enforcer slot. Plus a 4th drum over the 4th ornithopter. Are the differances between exos build and mine. If you don't have the goyfs i would run atog/dark confidant in that spot along with relic of prog maindeck in some number. I still dig affinity because it beats goblins zoo and bant countertop, its pretty easy to combat combo just run 4 canonist and thoughtseize in the board. I think the main reason affinity no longer does well is that pretty much noone plays it. Many deck are just not equiped to beat affinity in the current meta.

[Exospaciac]

I still dig affinity because it beats goblins zoo and bant countertop

I'll agree with this for the most part. Affinity also has a good matchup against Merfolk.
Bant decks are fairly easy to beat unless they're packing Trygon Predator. Most Bant decks that I've played have 2-3 in the sideboard, which is what initially made me move to Roterothopters over Arcbound Workers.

Canonist is a good card, but how reliably can you cast it if you also have 3 Goyfs, 4 Disciples, and some number of Thoughtcasts? Also, what does your sideboard look like? I can't imagine an Affinity board without at least 3 Pithing Needles, and Perish just helps so much against, well, every deck running Goyf.

[Combo Winter]

My side is

4 canonoist
4 thought seize
4 crypt
3 k grip

I play drum along with vial so that helps with casting of canonist. I also play an additional 5 color land main compared to your version there have been some times its sat in my hand but I still think it better than the next option which is thorn. And I like though seize over needle which may not be right but its worked out pretty well because it can come in vs many decks and have an impact.

[DragoFireheart]

This is the best primer on the site. Well done!

Anyways, will the new set that is returning to Mirrodin be of any use in helping this deck return? Who knows...

[Pltnmngl]

Scars of Mirrodin is pretty much the only reason I still have this deck together.

However, I don't think it will buff Ravager Affinity, but will spawn decent spin-offs of affinity decks for certain metas. Also, this probably means all colors get better artifact hate, too.

Honestly, I'm more excited about Extended since SOM plus Esper cards from Alara block could mean something fierce, but that's for another forum...

On a more related note, is Canonist treating everyone well? I'm thinking about converting over to splashing white.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I realize this deck is currently in hibernation, but still:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=106657&d=1277467427

Any interest??

[Vacrix]

Its slow but very, very strong. Pumping every creature each turn is huge.

[bakofried]

Anyone remember how the flavor text on the new Lightning Bolt was, in a sense, really cool, because it summed up how everyone felt when it came back? I think this card perfectly captures how I feel about Affinity right now.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

So maybe something like this?:

4 Ornithopter
3 Disciple of the Vault
2 Roterothopter
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Steel Overseer
4 Master of Etherium
3 Myr Enforcer
2 Thopter Foundry

4 Aether Vial
4 Springleaf Drum
4 Cranial Plating
4 Thoughtcast

4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
3 Ancient Den
4 Darksteel Citadel
2 City of Brass
1 Glimmervoid

...Not really sure what the sideboard would look like. How's that as a starting place for the main though?

[Darkenslight]

I'd actually consider running the Overseer in a Enforcer slot, because it has a better chance of enabling Frogmite. YMMV, though, Duke.

[Vacrix]

So maybe something like this?:

4 Ornithopter
3 Disciple of the Vault
2 Roterothopter
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Steel Overseer
4 Master of Etherium
3 Myr Enforcer
2 Thopter Foundry

4 Aether Vial
4 Springleaf Drum
4 Cranial Plating
4 Thoughtcast

4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
3 Ancient Den
4 Darksteel Citadel
2 City of Brass
1 Glimmervoid

...Not really sure what the sideboard would look like. How's that as a starting place for the main though?
Where is Arcbound Worker? You ought to take more advantage of modular considering pumping every guy on your team is going to going to completely negate spot removal.

[Justin]

So maybe something like this?:

4 Ornithopter
3 Disciple of the Vault
2 Roterothopter
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Steel Overseer
4 Master of Etherium
3 Myr Enforcer
2 Thopter Foundry

4 Aether Vial
4 Springleaf Drum
4 Cranial Plating
4 Thoughtcast

4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
3 Ancient Den
4 Darksteel Citadel
2 City of Brass
1 Glimmervoid

...Not really sure what the sideboard would look like. How's that as a starting place for the main though?

I still don't get why people would play Roterothopter over Arcbound Worker. Worker may seem underwhelming at first, but the modular ability often turns out to be very useful. Thopter Foundry just doesn't seem any good if the deck is not running Sword of the Meek and a way to tutor them. I'm not sure if you need a total of eight vials and drums. I've found that six is enough. I personally don't think that Steel Overseer makes the cut, because his ability isn't worth two mana in this deck. However, if you do try to fit him in, do not cut one-drops for him. I agree that Myr Enforcer would be the card to cut. I think Affinity is better if you have a card like Berserk that can give you a quick win out of nowhere.

By the way, this is what my sideboard looks like:

4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pithing Needle
3 Thorn of Amethyst

[Exospaciac]

Yeah, if we're going to be running the Overseer, we might as well be running Arcbound Worker too. I do love my Roterothopters though... but if we add Thopter Foundry, then the Roterothopters might be less necessary.
Thopter Foundry seems bad at first, but there are times when I've really needed a sac outlet and could not draw a Ravager. Thopter Foundry seems like the next best thing. Plus, it's nuts with Overseer and Master of Etherium.

How about:

4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
3 Ancient Den/Tree of Tales
4 Darksteel Citadel
1 Glimmervoid
2 City of Brass

4 Ornithopter
3 Arcbound Worker
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Frogmite
4 Disciple of the Vault
2 Thopter Foundry
3 Steel Overseer
4 Master of Etherium

4 Cranial Plating
4 Thoughtcast
3 Springleaf Drum
3 AEther Vial

I feel weird dropping to 3 Disciples, and I don't know what else I could cut, so I'm running only 3 Overseer.

[imanujakku]

the overseer might not be aggro enough. you dont want to swing with it and the only slot i could see it living in is cranial plating which id like to replace with something but it has to be faster or more game changing.

my dream card for affinity would be a myr enforcer triskelion hybrid.

[Justin]

I realize that this deck is pretty dead, but I'm hoping that this new Mirrodin set my bring it back to life. I haven't seen anything earth-shattering in the spoilers yet, but I do like this card:

0
Memnite
Artifact Creature - Construct
1/1

It seems like a replacement for Arcbound Worker. No modular, but it plays better with Springleaf Drum and all the affinity cards.

[largebrandon]

Also Mox Opal may be a 2 of:


Mox Opal 0
Legendary Artifact
Metalcraft - Tap for 1 of any color if you control 3+ artifacts

[Avatar of Light]

I posted this in the discussion thread, but I figured it's worth repeating.

T1: Artifact Land, Thopter/Memnite, Springleaf Drum, Mox Opal, Cranial Plating (You don't need the Drum, but it ups the artifact count)
T2: Smash for at least 5.

Don't forget we still have Glimmerpost unspoiled, but given what its name implies, it probably won't fit in Affinity.

[Alexeezay]

Hey guys, I recently though about a new affinity version with Lodestone Golems,Chalice of The Void and maybe 2mana lands, but then only 4 ancient tombs or so.It has obviously a good Combo MU and chalice is also good against Zoo,Goblins etc...Lodestone Golem is just one of the sickest cards seriously.
what do you think about it? I'm very excited how Scars Of Mirrodin will affect affinity and legacy in general.

[Justin]

Hey guys, I recently though about a new affinity version with Lodestone Golems,Chalice of The Void and maybe 2mana lands, but then only 4 ancient tombs or so.It has obviously a good Combo MU and chalice is also good against Zoo,Goblins etc...Lodestone Golem is just one of the sickest cards seriously.
what do you think about it? I'm very excited how Scars Of Mirrodin will affect affinity and legacy in general.

Seems like you should look at Mono Brown Stax.

On another note, I wonder how many of the new Mox Vial Affinity should run and what it replaces. It is a great card for the deck, but it is legendary. You might sac extra ones to your Ravager, but that assumes you have one on the board.

[the Thin White Duke]

Seems like you should look at Mono Brown Stax.

I agree Lodestone Golem is to control oriented for such an aggro deck. Now if he had affinity or some other way to cheat him out other than vial, that's another story.
As for Mox Opal , I'd say it could replace City of Brass but does this deck need more fast mana/fixers? And Legendary?
I'll get really excited when some cool creatures get spoiled.

[woremak]

I think that if they should print another Master of Etherium style card this deck would get a lot better.
The problem with the new cards, as already mentioned, is that they don't solve any of affinity's problems.
The closest to it that I've seen is that elf that can be an 8/8 with three artifacts out, if there's a cheaper version of that then maybe...

[Ando]

What if Mox Opal replaced Springleaf Drum? I mean usually T1 with Drum is something like Land, Thopter, Drum, which is 3 artifacts. Serves the same purpose without having to pay 1 to get it out or tap a dude to make the mana. Does it deserve any thought?

[mans0011]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110193&d=1283639270

looks pretty interesting....

Works great with vial and drum. Carries Plating like a champ. Helps affinity... I think this could be useful. Of course... it suffers from the same problem that Vial Affinity already suffers from... it's just not that great of a deck. And Ravager is too all in.

[Justin]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110193&d=1283639270

looks pretty interesting....

Works great with vial and drum. Carries Plating like a champ. Helps affinity... I think this could be useful. Of course... it suffers from the same problem that Vial Affinity already suffers from... it's just not that great of a deck. And Ravager is too all in.

Yeah, I think Memnite will replace Arcboung Worker.

As for Mox Opal, the first one can replace a land, preferably a non-artifact land such as Glimmervoid or City of Brass. It will be nice to have an extra mana-producing card that is immune to Wasteland. Additional Mox Opals should replace spells, not lands, because you cannot have more than one on the battlefiled at the same time. The Mox plays so well with Springleaf Drum that I hesitate to take one of those out. The best move might be to cut one land and one vial and just play two Moxen. Anybody with a list that plays Lotus Petal, Cromatic Star, etc. can definately replace those cards with Mox Opal without feeling too bad.

I think two Mox Opal is probably optimal, but some may want to cheat a third or fourth in. The problem is that it is legendary. One way around this is to sac a Mox to Ravager (after tapping it for mana) if you draw a second one. The problem is that you won't always have a Ravager on the board and extra moxen could pile up in your hand as dead cards.