[Deck] Zoo

[Pulp_Fiction]

R/G/W Zoo Updated Thread

What is it?

R/G/W Zoo is just like it sounds, it is a savagely fast aggro deck that takes advantage of the most efficient and cost effective red/green/white spells in the game.

Why play Zoo? Isn’t Goblins the best aggro deck?

The deck is quite fast, but if you are going to play aggro, isn’t Goblins better? Yes and no. Zoo mulligans a lot less and has less dead draws. Usually after the initial onslaught Goblins is stuck drawing crappy 1/1 and 2/2 creatures, and bad Goblin Ringleaders can just lead to a loss. This is not the case with Zoo. Every creature you draw is a serious threat, especially with Jittes and Cursed Scroll in the deck. The worst creatures you can draw at and given time are Isamaru and Goblin Legionnaire/Figure of Destiny, which, are not all that bad themselves. In terms of speed, turn 3 kills are not possible like they are in Goblins. In Zoo, turn 4 kills happen around 20-35% of the time. Expect to win turns 5-6 usually, but this includes disruption from the opponent.

Why Red/Green/White? Are additional splashes necessary?

Zoo will always be R/G something. Because red has burn and green has cheap and large creatures like Tarmogoyf. But what about the third color? Why white? Until recently, R/G/B could have been just as good. With the printing of Wild Nacatl and Woolly Thoctar it send R/G/W into the optimal colors for Zoo. Nacatl is a 3/3 for G and Thoctar is a 5/4 for RGW. Also, white gives you access to Swords to Plowshares, Watchwolf, Lightning Helix, and Gaddock Teeg. You can play additional colors, having access to fetchlands enables you to play Domain Zoo if you want to, but the problem with playing 5 colors is that you are now very vulnerable to a single wasteland.

Manabase

Part of the reason this deck is so effective is that it is simple. Burn, big creatures, and a solid manabase. Only playing 3 colors enables the deck to run 1x of each basic, so you can fetch those out against decks that run Wasteland recursion. This is essential, basics play a large part of keeping the deck solid, especially against Moon effects and cards like Back to Basics. Basics also help in the burn matchups, just fetch them out to nullify Price of Progress. Horizon Canopy is another card that merits discussion. NEVER, play more than 2 in this deck. As long as you play 4x Wild Nactal and 4x Kird Ape do not run any more. Horizon Canopy is very good as a 1-of but playing anymore greatly hinders 8 of your creatures power level and makes the deck even more vulnerable to Wasteland. It is good when you are mana flooded or can’t find that green or white source, but should not be run as more than a 2 at all since it will mess with the consistency of the deck.

Decklist and card explanation

Here is a fully up-to-date list and SB of what a new R/G/W Zoo deck should look like followed by an explanation of each card:

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Kird Ape
4x Wild Nactal
4x Watchwolf
3x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
2x Goblin Legionnaire/Figure of Destiny
2x Woolly Thoctar
4x Swords to PlowShares
4x Lightning Helix
4x Lighting Bolt
2x Cursed Scroll
2x Jitte

4x Wooded Foothills
4x Windswept Heath
3x Taiga
3x Plateau
3x Savannah
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Forest

Sideboard

3x Pithing Needle
3x Pyroclasm
3x Vexing Shusher
3x Ancient Grudge
3x Gaddock Teeg

Tarmogoyf - Needs no explanation, he is big, green, and wins games fast. Play no less than 4!

Kird Ape - The second best 1CC creature in the deck. R for a 2/3 creature is pretty good, a long time staple in RG aggro, this deck is no exception, he is still spectacular and still fast, play 4!

Wild Nactal – One of the main reasons to play white, it is G for a 3/3, spectacular creature, especially in the early game and in multiples! Play no less than 4!

Watchwolf – GW for a 3/3 is damn good. He is big and fast. A lot of people seem to disagree with Watcholf being any good in Legacy, but test it out, the card is the third most common counter target, right behind Swords and Goyf! Puts the opponent on a fast clock, play 4!

Isamaru, Hound of Konda – Easily the weakest creature in the deck, but W for a 2/2 is really good. If there was a bigger one drop creature without a drawback it would replace him, but as it stands, Isamaru is a damn good creature, but only play 3 since it is legendary!

Goblin Legionnaire/Figure of Destiny – These are the 2x open slots in the deck, and it really varies. I have played both and I remember one tournament in particular where I ran 2x Figure of Destiny, I lost one game since it was not Legionnaire, and I won another since I could make it a 4/4. It really depends, these creatures usually get sided out anyway and both suck against Goblins, but I prefer Goblin Legionnaire in this spot since he is both a creature and burn and is usually a 2 for 1 or a finisher with the opponent at 2 life! If there is a lot of Dredge or Aggro Loam played in your meta you could run Jotun Grunt in this spot as well.

Woolly Thoctar – This guy is a fucking monster! Because of his restrictive CC of RGW he should not be played a any more than a 2-of, and because he is the most expensive card in the deck! He does slow the deck down a little, but usually he is bigger than Goyf and at worst he trades with Goyf; usually he is immune to Counterbalance as well . He is a massive threat all his own and needs to be addressed immediately! Play no more than 2!

Swords to Plowshares – Most people seem to think that running StP is ignorant since giving the opponent life is very counter-productive to the plan of Zoo. This could not be farther from the truth. StP is a utility removal spell. When you have Goyf, Ape, Nacatl, and Isamaru on the board, you could care less that the opponent is about to gain 3-5 life from their Goyf since you are about to swing in for a lot more! StP deals with any troublesome blockers like Goyf, Tombstalker, Nantuko Shade, or most any big late game threat your opponent may play. It is also a maindeck answer to Phyrexian Dreadnought! Not only does StP clear the path for your attack, but it also keeps you alive against burn, and in certain dire situations, can save you against an inexperienced tendrils combo players! Play no less than 4!

Lightning Helix – Second best burn spell ever printed! This card single-handedly dominates the aggro mirror matches and ravages Goyf Sligh, play 4!

Lighting Bolt – The best burn spell ever printed …. play 4!

Cursed Scroll – This card is probably the most misunderstood in the deck. Most people won’t run it since it slows the deck down, much like the arguments against StP, the usefulness of Scroll trumps those arguments. Cursed Scroll dominates the Goblins matchup, one game I drew 6 lands in a row against Goblins and still won, since Scroll kills every single creature in their deck! Scroll also breaks Goyf standoffs and the general utility of a permanent burn spell is never useless in an aggro deck! R/G/W Zoo is a strange aggro deck, it is fast in the early game, but because the creatures are so effective it also has pretty good mid-late game! The card is just too valuable not to play, when the deck runs out of gas it is very nice to have a permanent 2 damage source that can’t be burned away or StPed! But everyone dismisses it based on goldfish speed, and it should absolutely be included in the deck! Play 2!

Umezawa’s Jitte – Ironically this card is a lot like Cursed Scroll, it fundamentally slows the deck down by 1-3 turns but is still commonly played since .. it is that good. No argument from me, Jitte is spectacular, it dominates random aggro, makes burn cry, and turns every creature in the deck into an even more imminent threat! Play 2!

Wooded Foothills – On color fetchlands, play 4!

Windswept Heath – Same as above, do not play Bloodstained Mire in RGW Zoo, you have access to G/W and R/G fetchlands, that fact that your fetchlands can get on color basics is very important!

Taiga/Plateau/Savannah – The deck has a very close ratio of R/G/W spells so just running 3 of each of these is the best plan!

Horizon Canopy – Already explained why to run just 1, but it is a very good 1-of. If you wanted to replace it with anything, put a Taiga in its spot! DO NOT play any color-less lands in this deck, it will really hurt the consistency and make the deck even more vulnerable to Wasteland!

Forest/Mountain/Plains – Already explained, 1 of each basic is very important!

The SB should vary from each meta but this is what I run, my meta has EVERYTHING, you might play against, Affinity, U/G Madness, Stiflenought, B/W Confidant, ANT combo, Thresh, Goblins, Belcher, Lands! etc. This SB is optimized to be effective against most of the Legacy metagame and has been thoroughly tested:

Pithing Needle – This card is vital and should be run in EVERY SB for Zoo! It should be at least as a 3-of! It helps against Maze of Ith, Vedalken Shackles, Engineered Explosives (this is key), Belcher, Putrid Imp, Survival of the Fittest, Sensei’s Diving Top (another key card), and numerous others! Play no less than 3!

Pyroclasm – Great for fending off Dredge’s zombie tokens, makes the Elf and Goblins matchups nearly a bye, and gets rid of Empty the Warrens tokens. Not essential to the board, but if you expect lots of Goblins or Belcher, certainly bring this! 3 is good enough, 4 is almost overkill, I would not run any more than 3!

Vexing Shusher – As Eric Foreman would say “YES YES”! Shusher is fucking amazing in every way, it answers the deck’s most problematic cards: Chalice of the Void and Counterbalance! Play no less than 3!

Ancient Grudge – Here is where the metagame starts kicking in, there are TONS of Vedalken Shackles and Dreadnoughts running around in my meta. I choose to not run any form of enchantment destruction because Enchantress is such a horrid matchup and in my meta there are no enchantments that I really need to kill. Needle and Shusher are all you need for the Counterbalance matchup IMOP. This could easily be Naturalize/Krosan Grip but I much prefer Ancient Grudge, since Dreadstill is so commonly played in my meta. Also, Grudge deals with 2x threats from Dragon Stompy which is always nice. Grudge is a very underplayed card, and if you don’t expect much Enchantress or Prison effects, certainly run them! Play 3!

Gaddock Teeg – If your meta has any form of combo your have to run this guy! He is the best form of combo hate that you can play in an aggro deck. He also stops Engineered Explosives, Force of Will, Belcher, and Wrath effects that Landstill may play! If you don’t have Teeg the next best creature to run is Ethersworn Canonist and after that Thorn of Amethyst. Those are the best forms of combo hate you can run. However, the combo matchup is not good anyway, but Teeg is run because of his dual role against stopping combo and his usefulness against EE and other cards.

Here is a list of the creatures that could be used in RGW Zoo, but just don't make the cut.

Mogg Fanatic - I've personally been a fan of Mogg since I started using him, but for Zoo, every one drop must have at least 2 power and 2 toughness. If you play this deck in a meta with lots of Dredge then look into Fanatic, otherwise don't worry about it. This deck is about speed, and Fanatic is great, BUT he is just an inferior card to draw during the mid-late game.

Savannah Lions - A good 2/1 for one, but in Zoo we personally want to maximize each card's power AND toughness, so the 1 toughness just doesn't cut it.

Jungle Lions - Same explanation as Savannah Lions, except for he can't even block.

Skyshroud Elite - He was tested early on and was either really hit or miss. I just hate casting him turn one and then your opponent dropping a forest and a Llanowar Elves or a island and Top. He just isn't that good anymore and since Nactal was printed, he got the boot.

Magus of the Moon - Absolutely terrible, turning all your lands into Mountains is bad for Zoo. I couldn't actually see him being used in the main or board for any Zoo deck. Turning your opponent’s lands into mountains is cute, but why do you want to do this when you can just win?

Magus of the Scroll – Why not just run Cursed Scroll???

Grim Lavamancer - There has been a lot of arguing between him and Cursed Scroll, but the dissynergy with Goyf and the fact that he can be removed off the board so easily makes him weak. He is good, but in a deck that’s all about quick, fast, efficient creatures, he just isn’t good. Plus we don't play enough actual spells like Goyf Sligh to utilize him properly.

Serra Avenger/White Knight/Silver Knight - All of these cards are really good, but costing WW in a 3 color deck without manafixers in a format that plays Wastleland is just bad.

Woolly Thoctars 3&4 - Having to fetch all duals is suicide sometimes. His casting cost can be tough because it costs both 3 and WGR and there will be times, where it will be stuck in your hand. In multiples it is terrible, but drawing one in the mid-late game … hot sauce!

Nimble Mongoose - Hitting Threshold is really tough in this deck and the opponent really should be dead by the time you would achieve Thresh or late game it can’t wear Jitte.

Troll Ascetic - Too mana intensive and slow. Damn good card … but not in a pure aggro deck.

Jotun Grunt - AMAZING card, and was used early on in testing, but the dissynergy with Goyf was just too much. Could possibly be used in the sideboard against Dredge and Aggro Loam. The problem is, he usually gets in 1 swing then dies, this deck just doesn’t play enough spells to maintain it.

Scab Clan Mauler - WAY too conditional. You want stuff late game that will still be 2/2 3/3 for 1 or 2.

Blade of the Sixth Pride - With a toughness of 1, and nothing special except it's cost, it isn't that good.

Silhana Ledgewalker - Shroud is good, really good, but his 1/1-ness makes him unplayable especially with no pump spells.

Matchup analysis:

Threshold - 60/40 in Zoo'z favor. Red Variants have bolts which hinder us. A lot of our creatures can trade/kill Mongoose fairly easy. But you know Thresh, it can just get nuts hands and counter everything relevant. Countertop is also bad news for us, Shusher in the board helps but only if you draw him. But this being a pure aggro deck sometimes it can just do its thing and go nuts. Be careful if they play Engineered Explosives to not overextend. SB really varies depending on which version you are playing against but usually go -3 Isamaru, -2 Goblin Legionnaire. Jitte can also be sided out but ONLY if they run Counterbalance; also against Counterbalance take out Lightning Bolts to make them work to counter your spells and every card in the deck a permanent threat.

Team America - TA has a problem dealing with multiple threats, and the fact that they run Snuff Out is great for us. They only run 8 threats and since StP is your friend this matchup is quite easy. This is essential, remember this, MULLIGAN into a hand that has a basic in it or duals, if your only lands are fetches, throw the hand away unless you are on the play to avoid Stifle and be weary of Daze, play the match slower. You don’t have to aggro them out as fast as you can, just take your time, the longer the game goes the better for you. You can chumps block Goyf all day and two burn spells, Cursed Scroll + burn spell, or Swords can handle Tombstalker. Overall it is about 75/25 in favor of Zoo. Just aim to keep a somewhat land heavy hand. No SB is necessary, but you could put in either Teeg or Shusher but they don’t play enough counters to justify Shusher and Teeg only shuts off Force and Snuff Out.

Goblins - This matchup is almost a joke. Every creature in this deck is better than theirs, and you have better removal. Pyroclasm from the board makes this matchup even more insane. 80/20 in my opinion from testing pre-board and 90-10 post. The only loss I have ever taken from Goblins is when I didn’t hit land number three until turn 13. Seriously, its that bad. Cursed Scroll shines here, it kills every creature in their deck again and again! SB like this: -2 Goblin Legionnaire, -1 Isamaru and +3 Pyroclasm.

Dreadstill - Dreadnaught is hard to deal with before sideboard, the only real answer to Dreadnought is Swords to Plowshares. Countertop once again is a pain, because it shuts off a LOT of the deck. Plus they have Engineered Explosives/Academy Ruins which "Ruins" our day. Wasteland can be bad news but it really depends. It also varies with the build you are playing against, the versions with Goyf are a lot easier. Pre-board it is about 65/35 in favor of Dreadstill. But things get a LOT better after the SB. Out of the 3 times in a tournament that I have ran into Dreadstill I have never lost the match, that is because Ancient Grudge OWNS that deck. If they don’t run Counterbalance you don’t need to bring in Shusher because playing to many bears can lead to Mishra’s Factory becoming a problem but based on the number of Counterspells SB accordingly. Usually SB something like this: -4 Lightning Bolt, -3 Isamaru, -2 Goblin Legionnaire, -2 Jitte, -1 Kird Ape and +3 Teeg, +3 Shusher, +3 Needle (EE, Top, Factory, Wasteland), +3 Ancient Grudge.

Ad Nausem Tendrils - Terrible matchup ... no main deck answers at all. Just hope they keep a terrible hand and you can aggro out on them or they go into Bolt range from AdN. Its probably something like 85/15 in favor of Ad Nauseam. SB like this: -2 Woolly Thoctar, -2 Jitte, -2 Goblin Legionnaire and +3 Teeg, +3 Ancient Grudge.

Survival- Recurring threats backed up by hand destruction can be bad. But the deck isn’t super fast and Zoo is, this is truly a race matchup it is a little in favor of Zoo, probably 55/45. SB like this: -2 Goblin Legionnaire, -1 Isamaru and +3 Pithing Needle.

Eva Green - They run Snuff Out, and their threats die to almost all of our removal. Discard and Wasteland are annoying, but we can play through it. Maindeck Seal of Primordium bad as well since Jitte and Scroll are great in this matchup. 60/40 in our favor. Especially if it goes late game, everything in this deck is a threat, and ours are a lot better than theirs. SB: -2 Isamaru and +2 Ancient Grudge (for their Jitte).

Dragon Stompy - Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, and Blood Moon effects all ruin your day. Arc Slogger is scary since it can and will kill your threats rather easy. Just hope they keep a bad hand and aim to keep one with a basic in it. About a 70/30 matchup in their favor. SB like this: -2 Woolly Thoctar, -2 Cursed Scroll, -1 Goblin Legionnaire, -1 Isamaru and +3 Ancient Grudge and +3 Shusher.

Mono Blue Control - If the game goes too long they will just beat you. So kill them early or you pretty much have no hope. Countertop turn two sucks but the threats in this deck are so good it only takes a few to go a long way. If they don’t run Counterbalance it is very hard for them to win. Vexing Shushers just beat them though. Its really bad after SB, just mull into Shusher. SB like this: -2 Jitte and -1 Isamaru and +3 Shusher.

Belcher - If they Belch you then you lose, but if they happen to have to Empty the Warrens, you can come back with a lot of blockers and pinpoint removal, even then, it's still a nightmare. This deck can actually race (on the play) a turn 1 Empty for 10-12. But any more than that it’s bad. Since Belcher is a glass cannon its either going to win fast or lose gloriously. It’s about a 80/20 matchup in favor of Belcher. If they don’t win on turns 1-2 then Teeg will devastate them. SB like this: -2 Woolly Thoctar, -2 Jitte, -2 Cursed Scroll, -2 Goblin Legionnaire, -4 Swords to Plowshares and +3 Pithing Needle, +3 Teeg, +3 Pyroclasm, +3 Ancient Grudge.

A special thanks goes out to Loxodon Baileyarch for helping me write the primer and for just being awesome and playing Zoo!

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Now time to start some discussion. Cursed Scroll v.s. Grim Lavamancer/Rancor :tongue:

But yeah i hope everyone enjoys this thread. We put alot of time into it.

[Captain Hammer]

List looks okay. I would up the anti-combo cards in your sideboard though, just because I don't like the idea of autolosing to any and all storm based combo. But hey, it's all about what you expect ot face.

Here is the list that I would play...

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Savannah
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
1 Horizon Canopy

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Gadook Teeg
3 Woolly Thoctar
2 Additional Creatures

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Lightning Helix
2 Price of Progress/Fireblast

4 PtE/StP
2 Rancor

The two additional creatures would probably be Watchwolf. But a case could be made for any of the following...

Watchwolf
Isamaru, Hound of Konda
Figure of Destiny
Skyshroud Elite

or if additional utility is desired...

Grim Lavamancer
Goblin Legionaire
Vexing Shusher
Tin-Street Hooligan
Ethersworn Canonist

Everyone of these creatures probably merits some consideration/discussion.

As for the Cursed Scroll vs. Rancor vs. Lavamancer debate, I'm going to side with Rancor here. Scroll is very slow and this is a fast deck. And Lavamancer can be slow or have poor synergy with Goyf. Also, making your Nactal/Watchwolf big enough to trade with Tombstalker, 4/5 Goyf or Doran is pretty powerful.

Also, I would love to test my Doran Suicide list against your Zoo build. I've had a very favorable record with Doran Sui against random fast aggro decks very similar to Zoo (Tombstalker + Doran + Goyf all make for very unsurmountable walls when needed). But your list looks more solid than anything I've faced. So I want to see if it's still favorable or not. I mainly want to see what percentage of the time I manage to colorscrew you using Sinkhole + Hymn + Vindicate + Hyppe + Wasteland.

Maybe tom or thurs evening. PM me if you're up for it.

[Berzerked]

No mention of Tin-Street Hooligan? That's most likely what I'd have in those two flex slots.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

As for the Cursed Scroll vs. Rancor vs. Lavamancer debate, I'm going to side with Rancor here. Scroll is very slow and this is a fast deck. And Lavamancer can be slow or have poor synergy with Goyf. Also, making your Nactal/Watchwolf big enough to trade with Tombstalker, 4/5 Goyf or Doran is pretty powerful.

I know this is a fast deck, but Cursed Scroll not only improves your late game, but it also helps dealing with Goyfs and Dorans like Rancor does.

Plus late game when you are in topdeck mode, Cursed Scroll is a great card to have or draw. While Rancor just kinda sits in your hand doing nothing. Just try it out, we wouldn't have chosen it in the list if it hadn't proved itself over and over again. Plus it makes Goblins/Random Fish decks almost a joke matchup. We sacrifice speed for consistency.

[TimeTwister]

Hi,

You are right, but I think that cursed scroll should rather be in the board for those match ups ... I would prefer more burn for a faster finish in this slot.

Perhaps fireblast could be an option, because it would also have an impact to the AD Nauseum matchups.


greetings
TimeTwister

[Media314r8]

IMO, ethersworn canonist is a better combo hozer than teeg, as while teeg keeps them from using their kill/engine, they can still tutor for bounce, bounce him, and go off all in one turn. Canonist keeps their spell-based mana accel at bay, and buys you at least two turns, which, with burn, should be enough. (also less color-intensive)

It is of note that niether Teeg nor canonist stop a doomsday helm/top stack with grapeshot as the kill. (assuming they set up the turn before they go off, and you don't kill them... well, I suppose with all the burn and critters in zoo, if they doomsday and pass, they are probably not winning that one barring an upkeep chant.)

I also think that 3 slots in the SB is not going to be anywhere near enough hate to beat combo even 30% postboard, so I question if those slots are better used against other MUs. (relic would help vs loam, dredge, and TA type decks) Glass cannons are best when they have good-very good MUs against everything but combo, and I think Zoo's goal is simply not to run into a combo deck.

EDIT: MOAR fireblast, probably better than teeg vs combo, and improves your clock by a turn or so

[Seregrauko]

I've been playing Zoo ang RG beats since I was first introduced to the game.. Maybe 6-7 years ago. And I always enjoyed to play this archtype..

First off: I don't understand the exclusion of Grim Lavamancer. It's way faster than Cursed Scroll. It doesn't care how your hand looks, AND it can hit for 1 should it be necessary.
Often I play Lavamancer turn 1 (Obviously when I havn't got a Nacatl/Ape).
Sometimes it hit for 1 all game through. Other times it hit for 1 the first 1-3 turns. And from thereon.. -It shoots!

YES! - It succubs to critterremoval.. But that's a great deal! Then your bigger critters will stick on the board and hit for even more! - Great deal!

All in all: Lavamancer is cheaper and it can hit. Aside from that it's similar to Scroll.. Scroll cost more to activate and only works properly if you have one card in hand. Lavamancer needs two cards from the yard.. -Big deal.. Most of the time you have plenty of leftovers to throw away. I rarely experience problems with Lavamancers activationcost.

Cursed scroll might be a dead card. Lavamancer can hit for 1 or chumpblock if the shit hits the fan. -At it's worst!

I can't imagine playing zoo without Lavamancer!


Rancor is an awesome card! Always loved it and played it alot! For Zoo though.. -It is shit!

From time to time, it can be great! No doubt! Though it seldom is.. Critterremoval in response to a Rancor = 2 for 1. That SUCKS in Zoo since we don't draw any cards beside the 1-a-turn.

Most of the time you'd just love to have another critter instead!


Furthermore I never understood the inclusion of Isamaru. Especially not as a 3-of. It's not a critter that's likely to get KIA'ed. That makes the second and third copy redundant. It's small and the focus in this deck is BIG! Either that or an alternate way of dealing damage (Lavamancer/Fanatic).

Alot of people stated that Skyshroud Elite combined with Kird Ape was way to many 2/3's for a Zoo deck.. Why cut them for 2/2's? ;)

We have 8-12 x (3)/(2) // 3's. I just don't think the 2/2's make the cut! They're too small!

On that same note, I've tested Goblin Legionnaire as well. WR for a 2/2 isn't impressive.. I can shoot for 2 - Once.. -Unlike Lavamancer which is a 1-drop!


Jitte seems kinda overkill to me. It slows the deck down and doesn't deal damage by itself. I hate to see cards in Zoo that depend on other cards to deal damage. In Zoo I'd like to be able to topdeck a card and deal 2-3+ damage then and there or on my next turn. - Doing nothing in Zoo gets you killed! 2+ damage might be the points you need to finish off your opponent..
I have, however, played Jitte in the board. Since I think my preboard aggro(/control) and burn match is acceptable.


I totally agree on StP! I've tested without it and it's just way to good! Maybe we should play Path to Exile instead.. ;)

I haven't played alot recently, but when I did I played 3 Thoctar. Though I might, as well as you, cut one of 'em.

I'm not too big a fan of Watchwolf in Zoo. Though I'm having a hard time finding a better choice.. So we might be stuck with him until something better surfaces.

I wouldn't use Hooligan.. Especially not in main! -I'd rather have Ancient Grudge which is alot more gamebreaking.
You might consider Hooligan main in an extremely artifact-heavy meta.. (?)

I'll post a list some other day.. At the moment I have a list with B-splash. I'm going to make the 3-color version again. I hate inconsistencies in the manabase..

[4eak]

Is there any particular reason a zoo deck would not be interested in shadow creatures?

I test aggro decks all the time, and I have to admit that, in most cases, shadow creatures are quite powerful. All too often aggro decks are looking to push through that last bit of damage, and similar to burn's primary role in this deck, shadow creatures help to accomplish that goal. Zoo pays the color-smoothing price (in non-basics and tight manabases) to be a multi-colored non-CDisadvantageous-suicide aggro deck which emphasizes mana efficiency for maximum P/T with some burn on the side. In this type of deck, I think evasion should be calculated as part of how we interpret a creature's effective P/T and mana efficiency.

While I rarely present decks by CC, it is actually fairly appropriate for this archetype. Assuming we aren't splashing for black, we'd need to play white shadows. Try this one:


1cc Creatures: 12
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda (suffers from diminishing returns in multiples)
2 Figure of Destiny (suffers from dimreturns also)

2cc Creatures: 11
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Soltari Trooper (Priest/Monk are okay as well)
4 Watchwolf/River Boa (can't have Troll, but this is quite strong as well)

3cc Creatures: 4
4 Soltari Champion (puts up a lot of damage)

Stay in Aggro Role Spells: 12
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix/Chain Lightning (speaking of mana efficiency)
4 Swords to Plowshares

Mana-Base: 21
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Windswept Heath
3x Taiga
4x Plateau
3x Savannah
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Forest

Sideboard: 15
3 Pithing Needle
4 Vexing Shusher (I side these in quite a bit)
4 Jitte (because there are lots of decks where I want to see equipment every game)
4 Krosan Grip (never leave home without it)


I took out Teeg because you won't be defeating combo unless you devote way more of your deck to beating it. Since it was brought up, I would also like to mention that Shadows are very powerful against MUC as they have a difficult time trading against you with Shackled creatures--you stop the war of attrition very quickly when you can split it ground/shadow on the table.



peace,
4eak

[Moczoc]

Another nice decklist of you Pulp_Fiction, but I'd rethink the following:



4x Watchwolf
3x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
2x Goblin Legionnaire/Figure of Destiny


Basically FoD is a 2/2 for 2 that can grow to a 4/4 (forever, once paid .. and you can even play him for 1) that makes him imho better than the others. I would play 3 of it as it is mana-intensive.
And in tournament play Skyshroud Elite seems to be just better than Isamaru.

So I would play:

3x Figure of Destiny
2x-4x Skyshroud Elite
2x-4x Watchwolf/Goblin Legionaire (I don't know whick is needed more)

The numbers depend on the manacurve that I haven't analysed ;)

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

First off: I don't understand the exclusion of Grim Lavamancer. It's way faster than Cursed Scroll. It doesn't care how your hand looks, AND it can hit for 1 should it be necessary.
Often I play Lavamancer turn 1 (Obviously when I havn't got a Nacatl/Ape).
Sometimes it hit for 1 all game through. Other times it hit for 1 the first 1-3 turns. And from thereon.. -It shoots!

YES! - It succubs to critterremoval.. But that's a great deal! Then your bigger critters will stick on the board and hit for even more! - Great deal!

All in all: Lavamancer is cheaper and it can hit. Aside from that it's similar to Scroll.. Scroll cost more to activate and only works properly if you have one card in hand. Lavamancer needs two cards from the yard.. -Big deal.. Most of the time you have plenty of leftovers to throw away. I rarely experience problems with Lavamancers activationcost.

Cursed scroll might be a dead card. Lavamancer can hit for 1 or chumpblock if the shit hits the fan. -At it's worst!

I can't imagine playing zoo without Lavamancer!

It's personal preference and a metagame call. Also i've said a million times before in sacrifices speed for consistency. People seem to think that Zoo must win in the first four turns or something, idk.. but it has a really strong mid/late game too. And Cursed scroll can't die to creature removal. Plus playing Jitte and Scroll makes your opponent almost always want to board in Ancient Grudge/Krosan Grip, then you just take em out! :cool:

And on the topic of Skyshroud Elite. Try playing with him in a meta full of random shit. I play at least one mono green elf deck a week. It's not worth it.

[umbowta]

I’m interested to know what was the most aggressive list you guys tested. More specifically, which matchups were hurt by trying to win as fast as possible. I assume you reached a point in testing against deck X or archtype Y where you felt trying to win fast cost you the game/match.
In terms of speed, turn 3 kills are not possible As you guys know, I tend to insist on a much more aggressive build of Zoo. I like Turn 4 kills to happen a lot and I even ripped off a pair of 3rd turn kills in consecutive rounds this past weekend. 2-0ing Dreadstill due to fast beats (and Ancient Grudge/K. Grip in game 2) was especially satisfying


I'm going to side with Rancor here... making your Nactal/Watchwolf big enough to trade with Tombstalker, 4/5 Goyf or Doran is pretty powerful.
Ummm, hell yeah. Rancor on a 1st turn Nacatl just gets in there for 10 by turn three sometimes. Add a couple of bolts and its game over.

[Seregrauko]

It's personal preference and a metagame call. Also i've said a million times before in sacrifices speed for consistency. People seem to think that Zoo must win in the first four turns or something, idk.. but it has a really strong mid/late game too. And Cursed scroll can't die to creature removal. Plus playing Jitte and Scroll makes your opponent almost always want to board in Ancient Grudge/Krosan Grip, then you just take em out! :cool:

And on the topic of Skyshroud Elite. Try playing with him in a meta full of random shit. I play at least one mono green elf deck a week. It's not worth it.


Sure it's personal preference.. Alot of cardchoices are. But it's not an excuse for making suboptimal choices ;) Not saying that Scroll is completely banned in Zoo. I love the ability. I just think that Lavamancer offers a better/cheaper version of it. I don't see Lavamancers vunerability as a weakness. Alot of the time my Lavamancer attracts removal (and does so for R) so that my Goyf/Thoctar/Something big may swing through for more damage than the Lavamancer would ever do. Alot of decks just don't want you to be able to shoot for 2. I rarely miss my Mancer when it gets nailed.. I love it as a StP-magnet! It's cool to have a 1/1 for 1 that alot of decks have to spend their removal on..
On the "kill before turn 4" note I'd like to state that I definitely aim at a quick kill. This deck can pack a punch midgame, yes. Lategame it usually sucks. And against combo and control I'd hate to sit with my useless Scroll. I'd rather have a 1/1 critter that hits and, when I can spare the R, shoots for 2! And these matches are the hard ones. You don't need infinite "shoot-for-2" like scroll offers.. That's mostly to fight off aggro-decks which you own anyway.. Lavamancer's more aggressive. A plan you need to fight your bad MU's!


Regarding Grudge/Grip: Most players vil board artifact hate to fight Needles (which comes in alot of the time). You might as well advocate having the artifacts in your board so that your opponent has to choose between Jitte, Needle AND Scroll ;) -Kiddin'! It's a valid argument.
But again I like my Jittes in the board. I don't need cards MD that fights aggro/aggro-control and the occasional burn. These MU's are acceptable preboard IMO. Then I'd rather have Needle main! I wouldn't do that either though.. Since it doesn't deal damage.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@Seregrauko:

Needle can do damage my friend, with Karn in play :cool:

And idk like i can see why Goyf Sligh runs Mancer, bc it's mostly burn. Like in Zoo you have way more creatures than burn, and i've never really filled my graveyard up enough to use Mancer maybe 3 times, and even then my Goyf got smaller. Like i understand your argument, but look at it from my point of view too.

And people just don't board in artifact hate for Needles, they board it in for all sorts of stuff. Like Krosan Grip and Ancient Grudge are useful is so many matchups it's insane. So i don't understand what you mean there.

[Seregrauko]

Firstly: Don't get me wrong! I totally respect your POV. I just fail to understand it as the best choice for the deck ;)

And yes, people don't only board arti-hate because of Needle, but it's definitely one of the main reasons.. My point in that matter was kinda bleak. You know, I think it's VERY random. Play Jitte+Scroll main or.. -Not the big difference to me since I wouldn't be playing Scroll at all ;) -Jitte though, I don't get why it's MD?

And yeah! Why don't people play som more Karns.. Then my Gleemax would totally rock! ([INSERT DEVIL SMILEY] - Why haven't we got any of those BTW?)

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@Seregrauko:

I think the list that is posted is the best possible list Zoo could have. If you want to play Rancor and Lavamancer, then sure it's your call, i'm never gonna have to play you.

Have you ever used Jitte? It makes every creature, no matter what it's power/toughness a hella lot better. It kills creatures, gains life, and pumps. I don't see how that is bad at all.

[Viscosity]

I made this RWG Zoo deck the day I cracked my first pack of the new set and saw Nacatl. I played it twice in legacy events. Placing 2nd and 3rd. The mana curve is 30 cards at one mana and 10 cards at two. First turn chalice is immediate GG :(

4 Figure of Destiny
1 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Orim's Chant
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Rancor
3 Isochron Scepter

1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Plateau
3 Savannah
3 Taiga
3 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Vexing Shusher
3 Krosan Grip
2 Shattering Spree
3 Pithing Needle

Figure of Destiny: simply amazing. Something to do with excess mana and strongly improves mid to late game.

These are all obvious choices. I also didn't like fanatic in the deck (except vs Ichorid).
Isamaru, Hound of Konda (JUST ONE!)
Kird Ape
Tarmogoyf
Wild Nacatl

My only comment on these critters is that isamaru and kird apes are the weakest link, often being stuck up against 3/3 mongoose that I can't remove. Some games I hate my 2/3 critters. Nacatl is the MVP. The difference between 2/3 and 3/3 is HUGE.

Chain Lightning: Powers Goyf. Adds more direct burn which helps in a lot of match ups. I find it more useful than the 2nd tier creature choices.

Orim's Chant: Obviously its good on a stick, but this can easily play as a "timewalk" in this deck. A couple Nacatls and a couple chants usually means GG on turn 4. Strongly improves match-up vs combo, and enchantress. Don't underestimate the power of throwing chant at your opponent to prevent main turn removal like EE or wrath. This deck creates a fast clock.

Rancor: awesome... This is really great on the isamaru and kird apes. Making a 3/3 mongoose null and void.

Isochron Scepter: The deck has no card draw whatsoever. Scepter often represents card advantage. It seems to work very well. Sometmes the aggro plan just doesn't work, and this is another trick up your sleave. Chant is nice, helix is more fun and totally bad ass. Often I hold scepter until four mana. So as to cast the imprint immediately or during their next upkeep.

Other than chalice/counterbalance, the deck's other weakness is bad draws resulting in mulligan. I ran 18 land for quite a while, but the mulligans got too fierce... If you think you can take the heat, I'd cut 1 land and 1 isamaru for 2 Jitte or for 2 thoctar (which are very good btw).

P.S. - 4EAK - Your decklist looks like a "bye" for combo.

P.S.S. - Playing the deck it is always better to fetch your basic land if you can. The deck functions great with one of each basic and can also be very weak to wastelands.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I like the thread and it's move to Established forums (finally). I'm just wondering why there has been no mention of the cursed scroll slot being Isochron Scepter. EDIT: except for being ninja'd by viscosity With StoP and Helix on a stick, you win 95% of the games. As a 2-of, it doesn't get in the way that often, but definitely swings slow matchups like landstill or thresh or any control like MUC and Quinn.

Also with a minor adjustment to the manabase you guys could house 4x Figure of Destiny, who is in my opinion the scariest 1-drop in legacy. Such a gigantic beater and great pseudo-card advantage through not wasting burns but spending mana to pump him. Watchwolf just doesn't seem good enough.

Also, as much as I like Wooly Thoctar, I recently tried Grafted Wargear in his place. This card really is amazing, as it turns any creature in the deck into a big enough threat to eat goyfs or 1/4ths or 1/2s of opponent's life totals. Also, equip for 0 is so sexy it hurts.

[Viscosity]

I ninja'ed you on the 4x figures too :P

Wouldn't you rather play rancor over wargear? its a one drop so is doing damage earlier, plus trample... I'll have to playtest wargear to be sure though.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@Viscosity: I like the idea of Orim's Chant in the maindeck actually haha. I had in my sideboard forever and it was my only combo hate card, until i got some Gaddock Teeg, and i've been liking him better.

Like with the idea of Scepter/Chant in this deck, i could totally see fixing some cards around and making it like a midrange Zoo deck.

But maybe it's just me... :rolleyes:

[Suneloon]

Hi all

"The plan" of this deck is to play early beats followed by removal-> burn-to-face. Its simple, but thats why it works! Tweaking this deck means putting in cards that fit "the plan" better than previous ones.

- Cursed Scroll is a great card! I've played a lot of deadguy ale, and this card simply wins games! But in RGW-Zoo there are better choices that don't divert from "the plan" as much. So i don´t buy the cursed scroll = consistency argument.
- Jitte is situational and belongs in the sideboard.
- Rancor would almost always rather be another critter or a burn spell - put it back in ur mono-green stompy deck.
- Wargear? Stop playing mainboard pump! Play more burn instead.

The way I see it, this is the core of the deck:

4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Lavamancer

4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Swords to Plowshares

20 lands.

This leaves two slots open.

Besides the cards already discussed in the critter slot, wouldnt a bear fit in MB really well? Teeg, Shusher or Cannonist all improve some matchups enormously, while never being dead (as they can still simply smash face).

And I would really love to play more burn! Fireblast? Price of Progress?

Peace out!

Oh yea: Chant is imo the best anti-combo card in the SB. Combo will deal with any permanent based hate you play fairly easy. The standard Combo player will prob sb in his bounce/critter/artifact hate against you. Not expecting Chant until it is to late... muahahaha!

[Phoenix Ignition]

Oh yea: Chant is imo the best anti-combo card in the SB. Combo will deal with any permanent based hate you play fairly easy. The standard Combo player will prob sb in his bounce/critter/artifact hate against you. Not expecting Chant until it is to late... muahahaha!

A lot of ANT variants run pact of negation to stop that, don't forget that. Also, a lot of the time the player will duress or chant you himself, so you chant back buying 1 turn. Usually that 1 turn isn't enough, but who knows.



Also, I like Grafted Wargear better than rancor. You don't get 2 for 1ed ever by it unless someone runs disenchant main or wastes a EE at 3. It turns everyone into a freaking huge monster.

[4eak]

@ Viscosity

You certainly have a very interesting decklist. Scepter Aggro is definitely odd (and cool), and your deck had some interesting plays when we tested.


P.S. - 4EAK - Your decklist looks like a "bye" for combo.

Zoo is almost a bye for competent combo players already. This is a fact of life as an aggro deck.

Perhaps you didn't read my entire post. I already explained that the deck needs to run way more hate to have a shot against combo. Either play a lot more hate, or just screw the match.

Your deck isn't exactly zoo though, and it has at least a few answers at the expense of some of the aggressive functions of your deck. Even your deck isn't favorable against combo though.

In our testing (only a few games) against TES and ANT, even when your deck did draw combo hate (which was too sparse in the main), it wasn't in large enough numbers to stop the combo deck. Duress/Thoughtseize was bad for you (because it usually came first turn, while you were busy playing a creature, taking your only chant). A counter or bounce spell on scepter/chant, which was easy to tutor up if we didn't open with an answer to chant, and the combo deck just went off with AdN at high heath or IGG at low.

First and second turn wins are just too common from Tendrils combo decks to make a match even 50/50 without discard and permission. Combo is used to facing at least some resistance, so 3 chants 3 scepters and 4 other cards in the side are not a serious issue when you only have a 4th or 5th turn kill at best. While your deck has a clock, it doesn't make up for the lack of disruption. You really need a lot more hate to make it the combo match worth your while.

This leads me to ask, why play your deck instead of just focusing on the aggro strategy? You don't have strong enough answer to combo to merit the slots, and yet you have a weaker game against many decks that would cause you to play Zoo in the first place.




peace,
4eak

[Viscosity]

My comment about your deck was mostly because I didn't even see sideboard cards to help.. As if you were just going to throw the round. But yeah, I missed your comment about the fact that you were throwing the combo matches. So no biggie, it was intentional.

Everything is subject to Meta-game adjustments though. At the time I played the deck in the tournaments, I was maindecking 2 gaddock teeg, 3 chants, and sideboard 3 ethersworn, one chant, one teeg. I see nothing wrong with maindeck teegs. I would play teeg over legionnaire or watch wolf any day. It stops EE, WoG, belcher, ANT, TES, Moat, etc.

The first game against ANt, he went off blind, because all he saw were little critters and he did'nt have discard (don't they only run 4?). I Orim's chanted him after he cast infernal tutor and had 5 mana floating. GG. After board, I had 10 anti-combo cards in the deck. I was the only one who beat ANT that night.

I find the fast pace very relevant against ANT, because the burn and quick damage make it harder to draw more with adnauseum. With the maindeck teegs and chants, it was a lot easier. I found that dropping a teeg or canonist was usually GG due to the fast clock.

I changed the decklist as I find ANT less favorable of a deck choice these days and I'm not seeing it as much in my meta. There is so much blue based hate such as counterbalance, that I don't think ANT would win the local tournaments anymore.

Concerning scepter. I just really like the way it plays in here. Scepter with a bolt or helix is aggro is it not?


and yet you have a weaker game against many decks that would cause you to play Zoo in the first place.


Like what? I've only found scepter to make the deck stronger in almost every match up. Chant as well.

[Viscosity]

Hi all

"The plan" of this deck is to play early beats followed by removal-> burn-to-face. Its simple, but thats why it works! Tweaking this deck means putting in cards that fit "the plan" better than previous ones.

- Rancor would almost always rather be another critter or a burn spell - put it back in ur mono-green stompy deck. Couldn't disagree more. This is early beats and is very much in the "plan" of the deck. The issue I find is that 2/3 critters just aren't big enough sometimes and you need to be able to swing against opponent's blockers. This enables that and is the most efficient card for the job.

Besides the cards already discussed in the critter slot, wouldnt a bear fit in MB really well? Teeg, Shusher or Cannonist all improve some matchups enormously, while never being dead (as they can still simply smash face). Good call, I am definitely a fan of main deck teeg x 2.

[Braves]

super fail @ bad deck


hey guys =)

[Viscosity]

super fail @ bad deck


hey guys =)

very true:tongue: . Did I mention that you can't take Zoo seriously? It it very much tier 2 or even 3.

[umbowta]

super fail @ bad deck


hey guys =)
very true:tongue: . Did I mention that you can't take Zoo seriously? It it very much tier 2 or even 3.I really hope you guys are just being facetious rather than ignorant, or worse yet, malicious. A deck must be approved before it is considered "established".

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

super fail @ bad deck


hey guys =)

ily <3

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I just don't see why people think Jitte should be in the sideboard. It's so freaking good. And in a deck with a bunch of creatures it's just insane. Between me and Pulp Fiction alone, we have at least top 2ed a tournament 12 times or more, with just this list. Just try it out, and if you aren't satisfied with thinking about plays and not just burning to the dome and attacking then ok play your own list. We just play what's good. No cards in the maindeck are a metagame call they are just good. And they win. That's why we play them.

[Viscosity]

I really hope you guys are just being facetious rather than ignorant, or worse yet, malicious. A deck must be approved before it is considered "established".

No, I'm dead serious. So I guess that means I'm in your ignorant category... The deck is fun, very fun in fact. Sometimes its broken when your hand has 3 nacatls and you win in 2 minutes.

HOWEVER, if the deck loses to both chalice and counterbalance, how can it be competitive in our environment? The variety of green/blue control decks running around are substantial and most of them dream of getting aggro match-ups, where they can EE things away, drop counterbalance, and say GG.

First turn chalice is immediate loss. I expect chalice at the GP (and tons of counterbalance), so I'm just saying this deck wouldn't be my first choice is all.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

HOWEVER, if the deck loses to both chalice and counterbalance, how can it be competitive in our environment? The variety of green/blue control decks running around are substantial and most of them dream of getting aggro match-ups, where they can EE things away, drop counterbalance, and say GG.

First turn chalice is immediate loss. I expect chalice at the GP (and tons of counterbalance), so I'm just saying this deck wouldn't be my first choice is all.

Well then run Gaddock Teeg, and Vexing Shusher in the main then. I think it's a good call for a big tournament. Noone would see it coming. But hey it's up to you, you could cut Isamaru for em or something like that.

[Valtrix]

Well, I recently decided that I liked this deck, so this is what I've thrown together so far and my thoughts on the deck:

// Lands (19)
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [R] Taiga
3 [R] Plateau
1 [TSP] Forest (1)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [4E] Plains (1)
1 [BD] Mountain (2)
1 [R] Savannah

// Creatures (20)
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
3 [ALA] Woolly Thoctar
3 [EVE] Figure of Destiny
4 [9E] Kird Ape
3 [SHM] Vexing Shusher

// Spells (21)
4 [BD] Lightning Bolt
4 [REW] Lightning Helix
2 [VI] Fireblast
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares/Path to exile

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 3 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist

Some explanations:

--I really feel that swords should be path to exile. I can't see the opponent gaining land as a real drawback against this deck, at least compared to life. An opponent gaining 3-5 life from a creature can really be the difference of a turn.

--Shusher is in the main, because this deck needs an out to counterbalance/chalice. That's simply all there is to it. You have to sacrifice a little speed by not being able to play a stronger threat, but I feel that shusher can actually help you steal some games. In addition, it doesn't seem that you always need to play out your whole hand anyway, so having that extra utility is good. Also, this saves you sideboard slots, which is critical.

--Figure is a lategame card that can be an early-game card, which is why he's good. You can play him cheap and early, get some damage in, then pump him up later in the game when you need something stronger. However, he's not incredibly strong early game compared to your other one-drops (Nacatl, ape; Isamaru is not good enough to be run in my opinion). Thus, I think he deserves a 3x slot.

--Thoctar is a "late" game card. You won't always be able to play this guy third turn, because you won't always have color/mana. However, he's the biggest threat you got (most often), and really improves your late-game when you can have bigger threats. Plus, it's pretty scary to be beaten by a nacatl, burned, and then have this guy on you. However, you don't always want him early or multiples so much, so once again, I think he deserves a 3x slot. The other reason why this is justified is that it gives you more game against counterbalance. If they have to counter your early stuff, you can usually get this guy to evade a balance, and that can really help you swing the game in your favor.

--I'm not sure about the jittes/fireblast. I haven't come to a conclusion yet of what those other spaces should be used for. Jitte is good, no doubt, but I don't know specifically what it helps against in the main. Fireblast is somewhat good, helping get some damage in quicker and sooner, but I really hate loosing two land, and I don't know if it's worth it as a finisher. It seems also somewhat good against Ad nauseam combo, but you can't rely on it with so few.

SB:
--I think that thorn of amethyst is your best combo weapon, with teeg second. Why thorn first? Because the main ways that combo deals with problem cards is by bouncing them. They're fine bouncing teeg or canonist, but when they have to pay one more colorless to play their bounce...Well, that makes it much harder for them. Especially if you're able to get out multiples. Sure it can't swing, but you have plenty of guys who can already, and teeg gets you a couple extra damage, versus thorn giving you more time.

--With shusher in the main, you have a lot of options in the board. The way I have it set up is with 11 combo-hate, basically because I haven't really got to see what the board is needed against. I also don't know if all 4 k-grips are needed with shusher.

I'm out of time now, but I'll make sure to keep posting later.

[Viscosity]

good post. +1 for thorn being awesome.

Also, I like the main deck shusher.

[Captain Hammer]

That list looks awesome.

But IMO. Your sideboard should be playing some Choke. It's such a bomb these days.

[Valtrix]

Well...What exactly do we have to fear from them? Isn't 3x Shusher and 4x Krosan grip good enough? I wouldn't want to cut grip, because it's much more useful than choke, but then that eats up more sideboard slots. I feel like blue is going to have a very tough time with you after the board, especially when you side in teeg as well.

Also, I wonder if orim's chant is better than ethersworn canonist in this scenario. Simply because it lets us play it faster. The thing I hate, however, is that we have to keep mana open instead of playing a threat. However, combo is fast enough to the point where having 2-cost cards may not be enough. (On combo, thorn also slows down their cantrips, so it makes it harder for them to find their hate.)

[Suneloon]

Rancor is a cool card, no doubt! Kird Apes with Rancors whas my first true love in mtg :smile: . And i understand the underwhelming´nes of being 2/3 sometimes. But I still feel that rancor is not a seriuos tournament card today. ur simply gonna get 2 for 1´ed sometimes (one time is one to many). Also if you´ve tested Rancor, you know how much is sux to sit there looking at a hand with 2 rancors and hoping to top a critter...

Jitte is the only pump-card worthy of discussion. I personally don´t like it main, because its too mana intensive. But in an aggro heavy meta, maybe... Imo its an SB card.

In the ANT thread, there was a comment that they fear Cannonist more then Teeg. Teeg does nothing to stop them setting up. Cannonist can make it harder during the setup-phase ass well as stopping the combo.

Thorn for sure in the SB! This is perhaps the best permanent-based anti storm card.

[Seregrauko]

@Seregrauko:

I think the list that is posted is the best possible list Zoo could have. If you want to play Rancor and Lavamancer, then sure it's your call, i'm never gonna have to play you.

Have you ever used Jitte? It makes every creature, no matter what it's power/toughness a hella lot better. It kills creatures, gains life, and pumps. I don't see how that is bad at all.

First off: I'd never play Rancor in Zoo.. I LOOOOVE the card, but it's shit.. As Suneloon states: Getting 2 for 1'ed in Zoo SUCKS! Having Rancor in hand and missing a critter SUCKS!

And YES! I've played Jitte plenty of times in plenty of decks.. It's a KICKASS equipment.. It's THE equipment.. But it improves our good MU's and does nothing in the bad MU's! -I'd rather play Teegs/Shushers/Canonists main.. Hell I'd rather play Mask of Memory since it actually helps the deck. ;) Jitte MD is winmore IMO.

I would post a decklist if I weren't so damn lazy.. But I have to make one first ;)

[Valtrix]

Yeah, that's the impression I get from jitte as well. Our creatures should almost always be bigger than the opponent's, and if not then we still have burn/swords. Jitte really doesn't help speed the game up all that much, or be all that useful in problem situations. I kind of get the impression from Fireblast as well. I mean, I like it a lot, but at the same time if it's enough to kill them, then it's probably not much of a problem to wait an extra turn/late enough in the game to just cast regular burn. I really don't like that it's pretty much uncastable until the endgame =| I've kind of wanted to put runed halo in there, for combo/control, but at the same time I don't know if it would actually be all that useful. It'd be...unexpected at least. I hate WW, but with all three R/W/G dual lands it shouldn't be that hard.

[Viscosity]

rancor is just good. If you allow yourself to get 2 for 1'd then that was your player error. It is not hard to avoid. You should always be getting rancor back from killed creatures, and eventually rancor can turn into a card that blue decks want/need to counterspell in order to stop. I'm very happy with 2 rancors, as I never want to see too many and reduce the threat count substantially.

I mentioned it already, but a 3/3 mongoose is a very common situation to be up against. Rancor makes thresh fold to your 4/3s and larger goyfs to kill their goyfs.

I agree that the casting and equipping of jitte is too slow. I'd rather play woolly thoctar. this deck does best with 3 land drops, and after some more fishing, I really like thoctar. Thoctar must be dealt with, often kills goyfs, and allows you to not overextend your cards into mass removal. Plus the casting cost of 3 is a plus in our format.

[Valtrix]

I don't know what build you're playing, but that reason seems weak. Why? Because the only creature that should worry about mongoose is kird ape, and that's what, 4 cards in your deck? (Maybe you play Isamaru, but you shouldn't because it's not good enough.) Rancor is not really needed for goyf either, because you have burn. Which, by itself rarely kills goyf, it makes goyf trades go in your favor.

Also, how does "If you allow yourself to get 2 for 1'd then that was your player error" make sense for reasing? It seems to me that rancor should be an aggroish card, you want to put it on your creatures, right? But now...If you fear removal and don't play it, then it's not doing you any good at all. And if they had removal, wouldn't you just want a creature (to replace the one that was removed), or some other good spell you could actually play?

Rancor can be good, but I feel that you have to jump through too many hoops to actually make it worthwhile, and at the same time I don't feel that it speeds the deck up more/enough/at all over another creature or some good spell instead.

[Pulp_Fiction]

@Valtrix: Have you ever played this deck against a serious legacy deck? Your build is decent but you actually might have problems with Goblins. You don't play enough cheap and big creatures. Also, have you ever played against Eva Green or any deck with any form of land destruction? With 19 lands its a near auto loss. And only 19 lands with 3x Thoctar is awful. Fireblast is also not good, this deck doesn't need "BIG FINISHERS", it just needs to be good. Fireblast in your opening hand, Fireblast in hand staring at Tombstalker/Goyf in play with 2 creatures on your side of the board .... horrible, a 4-1 trade seems bad. Point is, Fireblast is not a good idea for Zoo, it can fuck you up to badly. Run more lands and Watchwolf and your build will get a lot better. Also, play against a few decks with Wasteland, then add more land and play against them again. MUCH more reliable, especially against Wasteland + Sinkhole.

@Viscosity: Please think about your posts before saying anything. HOW THE HELL IS A THRESHOLDED MONGOOSE COMMON????????? They are dead before then and all your creatures are better than Nimble Mongoose anyway so this is not relevant to anything. And your argument that Jitte slows the deck down yet you commonly play against decks with thresholded Mongeese?? Wouldn't Jitte be fucking spectacular in the lategame with ANY creature in the deck? And you are talking about speed, if Thresh commonly hits Threshold in every game you seriously need to reconsider what you are playing or possibly how you are playing it. Please gain experience with the deck in a non-MWS setting then comment.

[Viscosity]

You have 11 or 12 creatures that are often smaller than goose. Nacatl can be stuck at 2/2 if they stifle/waste a land or your land draw is weak. Figure is commonly a 2/2 for a while. And of course, the kird apes.

I'll admit one weakness of rancor vs equipment: As said, if they remove the creature you are attempting to target, you lose 2 cards to one removal. This hasn't been much of a problem for me yet.

Here is why: I play 2 rancors, so I generally have way more threats than rancors. The most common spot removal is 4x STP in the opponent's deck. Zoo runs around 20+ fast creatures. You play a Nacatl first turn and you start attacking, as you continue to drop early threats, the spot removal comes out fast. Why would they wait? They wait, they lose. The rancor goes on the next creature at the most opportune moment, after spot removal has been played. On the other hand, if they choose to play something of their own like a goyf on turn two, then there is your opening to play rancor and swing into their goyf. 5/3 trampling nacatl vs a 3/4 or 4/5 goyf is common (a good trade). I've really not had much trouble playing rancor without WALKING into a two-for-one situation.

At the very least, you play it on your less significant creatures (ape) and pull the removal away from the larger threats like goyf and Thoctar.

I'm open to it not being an absolute inclusion into the deck. All I know is that thus far, 2x rancor have been very strong and every time I have one in opening hand, it is better.

You mention you'd rather run another threat or a more useful spell; like what? Give examples please.




@Viscosity: Please think about your posts before saying anything. HOW THE HELL IS A THRESHOLDED MONGOOSE COMMON????????? They are dead before then and all your creatures are better than Nimble Mongoose anyway so this is not relevant to anything. And your argument that Jitte slows the deck down yet you commonly play against decks with thresholded Mongeese?? Wouldn't Jitte be fucking spectacular in the lategame with ANY creature in the deck? And you are talking about speed, if Thresh commonly hits Threshold in every game you seriously need to reconsider what you are playing or possibly how you are playing it. Please gain experience with the deck in a non-MWS setting then comment.

Thresh being the most popular deck in the meta, I guess I would say: VERY COMMON? The thresh player is not "dead" before then. Thresh hits threshold fast as hell. Did you not realize that?

OK, if they do nothing as you play your creatures and swing, then yes, they are dead. But if they are not retarded, then no, they are not dead. Thresh is one of the best decks in the format, it will survive your RGW zoo's first few turns, trust me.

Swords. Daze. Engineered Explosives. Force of Will. Goyf. < ----- I'm sure these cards won't affect the match at all (thick sarcasm)... They have thresh on turn 4 or 5, after slowing you down and removing your larger threats. A smart thresh player reduces you to creatures he can handle, like 2/3 creatures...

its not just about a 3/3 mongoose of course. Goyf is the most common creature and it has a large butt. Pumping the power of your nacatl or goyf or figure really do help vs goyfs. Against a non-creature situation. Rancor speeds up the deck substantially. IE - 5/3 nacatl swinging on turn 2. I'd rather swing with a 5/3 Cat on turn two than drop a 2/3 ape alongside her. At least I get the rancor back when they EE for one...

I'll think before I post if you promise to start thinking at all.

[umbowta]

I'm honestly getting sick of the whole getting 2 for 1'ed Rancor nonsense. Noodles. Dont noodles. Play the card. Dont play the card. Really, does anyone ever say Dark Ritual sucks because if you cast a creature off of the mana you might get 2 for 1'ed. Waaaaaaaaaaahhh I drew another Dark Rit when all I needed was a threat!

The point is sometimes the benefit is worth risking the potential drawback. I like the explosiveness of Rancor enough that I accept the potential drawbacks and I've made room for it in the deck. Please note, my version of Zoo didn't get approved for the established forum and you can see which one did. Does this change my opinion of the card? No. NOOOODLES!

[jimmerz213]

Im glad to see this deck picking up in interest, albeit not all positive. I just ran my Zoo deck tonight in a local tourney and swept it, granted the decks I played against werent...amazing. The only game I lost all night was game 2 of my match against Welder/Survival, I got nothing, he got the nuts.

I love this deck and have put a lot of thought/work into mine and Ive come to a few conclusions, all my own opinion so take them at that.

- Jitte is better than Rancor. I used to run both, but its just too many slots not occupied by legit threats. Sure, a 5/3 Nacatl on turn 2 is amazing, but its also improbable. I run 2 Jittes now, no rancors. I got tired of top decking them late game and loosing because of it.

-Kird Ape and I are being to part ways. Ive been testing Figure of Destiny and Im finding him more of a fit. Granted, he is a mana hog, but if I open a hand with him and some removal and a few lands, Im a lot happier than an ape with the same scenario. Plus, land destruction wont make FoD smaller.

-20 lands is plenty, even against a land destruction deck. The last match of my night tonight was actually against a guys deck who had 34 land removal spells in it, not counting wastelands. I had no problems beating him, at all. Deadguy would run a fraction of that, I also have no problem with that MU, my friend runs it. I loose some, but most are decisive.

Im really not sure what other things have been addressed, Im kinda tired, but thats the jist of what I got from the catch up reading I did.

Deck I ran Today:
8 Fetchs
3 Taiga
3 Savannah
2 Plateau
2 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains

4 Nacatl
4 FoD
4 Goyf
4 Watchwolf
3 Thoctar

4 Bolt
4 Chain
4 Swords
3 Lightning Helix
3 Magma Jet
2 Jitte
1 Garruk (The obviously out of place card, I just wanted to see how he worked. I plan on replacing him, I wasnt too thrilled.)

[B is for Big Job]

to be honest, rancor should find it way into this deck somehow. trample is probably one of the best abilities thats so underused. why trade all day when you trade and get trample damage? I know thats what burn is there for to clear the way but if youre facing cop red, chill or any other annoyance for red you just have to trade til the cows come home.

Also another ability thats rarely used is first strike too; trade and your creatures live. If there are creatures out there that have either of these should be in strong consieration.

Found a rather neat card, im not sure how much play it would see but it is something to look into since we like creatures with good abilities and have bang for their buck

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/ala/184.jpg

techy move against random fliers, faries, stalkers, drakes, serindibs. chumps for free and then burn the creature down

[Viscosity]

Jim: good list. I agree about kird ape, I've regularly considered pulling it completely; just not big enough. My conclusion is that creatures must have 3 power to really matter. The more I think on it, the more it makes sense. In the control match: Turn one Nacatl, turn two watchwolf. Then don't overextend. Play equipment and burn. Mass removal removes two creatures instead of 3 and then you drop thoctar/goyf, etc. Using a deck full of 1 drop/smallish creatures opens you up to the slaughter at the hands of WoG and EE. So... I'm sold on your creature base..

Wouldn't a top decked Jitte late game result in a loss the same as a rancor? I don't understand the difference in that regard. I respect your experience though, and sometimes (especially after being owned by jitte) I rethink including it.

Also, can you explain why not -1 mountain +1 Plateau????

Ambusher sure would be nice against attacking critters, but he isn't big enough. And a 2/3 for 3 is not good at all the rest of the time. thnk about playing the control match-up. 2/3 for 3 in your hand would be the worst card in your deck, by far. The real problem is that this card is good against decks where you already have a very positive match up. Anything playing small creatures attacking you. Those decks get kileld by your better creatures and massive spot removal.

[Suneloon]

Sure Kird Ape is underwhelming when u play a turn 1 Nacatl. But u don't always get to play a turn 1 Nacatl... And this deck NEEDS an agresive turn one critter! Kird ape is simply the second best card for this slot.
I believe the turn-1-agresive-critter-play is crucial to the succes of this deck. I would run no less than 10 at any tme.
I´m not sure how Figure fits this slot. I can see how it can be very good sometimes, but there has got to be times when he wants all ur mana, and the rest of ur deck hates him for it. Yes?/No?

[Viscosity]

Figure > Kird Ape

You realize that figure becomes the larger creatures permanently, right? I'm not saying don't run kird ape. But I've been in situation after situation where I just wish I had something better. Apes increase the speed of your first few turns. BUT your topdeck is much weaker as you draw into apes later in the game. And average hand will have one ape in the opening draw. So that is 3 apes left in the deck that are very underwhelming to draw into. Figure has the advantage of being a quick 2/2 or often a 4/4 swinging on turn 3, and also is a better mid/late game card than ape. I think if you were choosing between the two, Figure would be best.

It's most common that figure sits as a 2/2 for a while, so his clock is generally not much slower than kird ape. Even if it swings in as a 1/1 for a turn or two, he will make up for it as a 4/4 later. The ability to became a 4/4 permanently is very strong; a 4/4 is just BIG.

I do play 8 lands that produce white/red (just in case), but I've not yet used his last ability.

[Unknown2]

I generally play a playset of nacatl, kird ape, and figure, simply because I love 1 drops.

as for two drops, i play tarmo, watchwolf, etc.

[Suneloon]

You realize that figure becomes the larger creatures permanently, right?

Yes...

And I understand that Figure is a way better topdraw than Ape. But you didn't answer my question: How often are you forced to keep figure at 1/1, or accept a tempoloss in order to get him to 2/2?

I have been playing 4 Kird Apes and 2 Isamaru, because i win more often if i resolve an agressive critter turn 1.

[Viscosity]

Yes...

And I understand that Figure is a way better topdraw than Ape. But you didn't answer my question: How often are you forced to keep figure at 1/1, or accept a tempoloss in order to get him to 2/2?

I have been playing 4 Kird Apes and 2 Isamaru, because i win more often if i resolve an agressive critter turn 1.

Ok i'm going to get on my soap box for a moment..

What you described happens. Of course it really depends on the draw. I'd prefer to leave him as a 1/1 rather than accept tempo loss. He can/will make up for the lost damage when he becomes a 4/4. But it really depends on what deck I'm playing against. Sometimes it is favorable to just start making him larger and forcing your opponent to blow up some removal to clear one creature.

Investing mana into figure isn't always tempo loss. going from 2/2 to 4/4 adds 2 damage to the attack that turn. For example, If your 2/2 figure is staring down a 3/4 goyf on turn 3 (not that uncommon). I often have 2 choices: 1) play a 3/3 wolf or Nacatl and don't swing 2) OR make figure a 4/4 and swing.

Option 2 is better

That is another reason I like rancor. Because playing a rancor on a 2/2 and swinging into a 3/4 goyf (or other blocker) is an even better option, as it allows you to drop the Nacatl or Wolf after combat.

And if they choose NOT to block the 4/2 trample, then you make it a 6/4 trample next turn.. If they do trade figure for Goyf (yippy), the rancor drops on the wolf/nacatl and again you're swinging in for 5+ damage next turn.

In many matches (not all), holding creatures is GOOD. You can't draw extra cards, so you better not be losing them. Figure is better at allowing you to play around mass removal. Yes it took mana investment, but it also is only ONE card that presents an equal damage threat as 2 kird apes. Thus, stronger vs mass removal (one of this deck's primary weaknesses). If your opponent's deck is mostly spot removal, then you don't hold creatures and figure ends up another 2/2 much like isamaru or a 2/3 ape. And even in this situation, he has more potential to become a 4/4 stick. It is just more versatile, allowing you 'the player' to outplay your opponent. Decks like Zoo are non-thinking decks. Anything you can do to give the deck some options to actually think, is good IMO.

One thing is for sure though, figure is way better than isamaru. I hope you aren't playing isamaru instead.

I have also experienced games where kird ape gets stuck as a 1/1. Stifling fetches and wastelands only promote this. Figure is able to at least be a 2/2 permanently. I've had some games where kird ape really shines alongside nacatl, but I've also had that ape leave a bad taste in my mouth on many occasions.. lol :tongue:

I have another question for you to consider. Which hand would you prefer? The way I see things, I'd grab the figures. But I understand some would take the apes for the lack of mana investment. Everyone has different play styles, so everyone should make their own deck decisions.

Hand one:
2x kird ape
1x swords
1x helix
1x bolt
2x land

Hand two:
2x Figure
1x swords
1x helix
1x bolt
2x land

This discussion is pointless if your decklist includes both ape and figure, which many do. But if choosing one OR the other, do some playtesting.

[Valtrix]

So,there's a lot of debate in this thread, but I think that we need some stronger testing to really decide what will help the most. If anybody wants to test the deck with me on Magic Workstation, let me know. Send me a message via PM or IM on Disilllusioned. I think that the deck is strong right now, and has the potential to be even better, but needs some more extensive testing to find a more optimal list.

That said, the 3 power creatures are seeming more and more necessary the more I play. I don't necessarily like cutitng all kird apes, since I think we need a reasonable number of one drops, but maybe 4x nacatal, 4x figure, and 2x ape is appropriate? I don't know. I'm just playing some more with the deck. Honestly, I think that cutting ape might actually be okay. (Unopposed) You can still fish turn 4 fairly well, and should have enough damage almost every game to win by turn 5 for sure. I'm also starting to wonder what kind of balance between speed/late game power we need.

[Captain Hammer]

I think Kird Ape is worth playing if you play Rancor, and not worthwhile if you don't play Rancor.

I think Rancor is worth playing if you 20+ creatures, and isn't worth it otherwise. My build plays 22 creatures, so Rancor is definately worthwhile for me.

I think that mass removal is a lot rarer than point removal, and you'll be 2 for 1ing your threats/burn/pump to deal with big dudes like Goyfs and Tombstalkers so I think more threats is better than less.

I think that FoD, like Wolly Thoctor, is best as a 2 of or 3 of because it sucks in a ton of mana to use effectively.

I also think this deck displaced Goyf Sligh's role in the metagame completely.

Here is the list that I just put together btw, let me know what you think...

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Taiga
3 Savannah
3 Plateau
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains

4 Kird Ape
4 Nacatl
4 Goyf
4 Watchwolf
3 Thoctar
3 FoD/Grim Lavamancer

4 StP
4 Rancor
4 Bolt
4 Chain
2 Lightning Helix/Fireblast/Magma Jet

IMHO, it's a lot better than the list in the OP.

[jimmerz213]

Wouldn't a top decked Jitte late game result in a loss the same as a rancor? I don't understand the difference in that regard. I respect your experience though, and sometimes (especially after being owned by jitte) I rethink including it.

Also, can you explain why not -1 mountain +1 Plateau????

Ambusher sure would be nice against attacking critters, but he isn't big enough. And a 2/3 for 3 is not good at all the rest of the time. thnk about playing the control match-up. 2/3 for 3 in your hand would be the worst card in your deck, by far. The real problem is that this card is good against decks where you already have a very positive match up. Anything playing small creatures attacking you. Those decks get kileld by your better creatures and massive spot removal.

Oh most definitely a topdecked jitte is just as bad, if not worse (depends on mana situation) . I dont debate that at all, but still, I used to run 2 jitte and 3 rancor so id have a 1/6 (ish) probability of topdecking a dead card later in the game, with just 2 jittes, my odds are better to get a threat. And I will always play Jitte over rancor, always.

The plateau....its a two part reason, part one: I only own two :p Part two..I kind of like having the two red mana basics so if I am getting wastelanded to hell I can still drop a good amount of removal (burn anyway) if need be. I think in the long run though, I would want to add another plateau, as soon as I stop being stingy and buy one, haha.

And Ambusher is AMAZING in type 2. Note the end of that sentance. He just doesnt cut it for legacy imo. I like to think of this..."Anything he can kill, goyf can kill better". You can replace goyf with bolt, helix, chain lightning, watchwolf, whatever makes your rhyme more fun for you, but you get the idea.



Sure Kird Ape is underwhelming when u play a turn 1 Nacatl. But u don't always get to play a turn 1 Nacatl... And this deck NEEDS an agresive turn one critter! Kird ape is simply the second best card for this slot.
I believe the turn-1-agresive-critter-play is crucial to the succes of this deck. I would run no less than 10 at any tme.
I´m not sure how Figure fits this slot. I can see how it can be very good sometimes, but there has got to be times when he wants all ur mana, and the rest of ur deck hates him for it. Yes?/No?

Do you always get a first turn ape? I know I never did when I ran him. And you really dont NEED to drop a turn 1 threat. Granted, its amazing if you can, but ive won my share of games with my first creature played being watchwolf. It all depends how you drive the deck. Figure is awesome in this deck. Hes awesome in pretty much any deck you can fit him in. Sure, hes a mana hog, but the ability to make him grow as you go is just pure win. If I see a hand with 1 FoD, land, and removal, Im keeping. Everytime. The same cant be said for kird ape.


I generally play a playset of nacatl, kird ape, and figure, simply because I love 1 drops.

Thats begging for Chalice set to 1 (which already cripples this deck enough) or an EE. Gotta watch for that.


Thats all I got for now...Oh, I had the pleasure of playing against a Cliffrunner Behemoth today in the pre-release event I went to. Yea, hes good. But I just cant get over his 3 sized ass and 4cc....if only he wasnt so bad, hed be good. Ya know?

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@Viscosity:
Where do you test again? Bc i mean if the deck is so good with Figures and Rancors like you say, then hey top 8 for once and post a tournament report:cool:

Yes i'm being asshole, but just sit down and test instead of posting hypothetical questions about Thresholded Mongeese and how you'll always have the mana for FoD. Because the amount of mana you run, i doubt you'll ever see FoD get more than a 4/4. Yes a 4/4 is better than a 2/3, but by the time you get to late game you have probably lost anyway. Wasteland runs rampant these days. and even with fetching basics it's hard to pump FoD.

And i am a fan of Rancor more than anyone... but it just doesn't even compare to Jitte at all... sure it recurs but it's worth it to pay to cast the Jitte and to equip because it's THAT good. Sure you can say that about FoD, but i think Jitte just is better anyway.

[Suneloon]

I generally play a playset of nacatl, kird ape, and figure, simply because I love 1 drops.
Thats begging for Chalice set to 1 (which already cripples this deck enough) or an EE. Gotta watch for that.

Maybe we should play only critters with CC 4 or more? Then we could avoid Counterbalance too! :wink:

Have you ever actually played this deck? I have, and turn 1 aggressive critter IS crucial to this deck.

[B is for Big Job]

@Viscosity:
Where do you test again? Bc i mean if the deck is so good with Figures and Rancors like you say, then hey top 8 for once and post a tournament report:cool:

Yes i'm being asshole, but just sit down and test instead of posting hypothetical questions about Thresholded Mongeese and how you'll always have the mana for FoD. Because the amount of mana you run, i doubt you'll ever see FoD get more than a 4/4. Yes a 4/4 is better than a 2/3, but by the time you get to late game you have probably lost anyway. Wasteland runs rampant these days. and even with fetching basics it's hard to pump FoD.

And i am a fan of Rancor more than anyone... but it just doesn't even compare to Jitte at all... sure it recurs but it's worth it to pay to cast the Jitte and to equip because it's THAT good. Sure you can say that about FoD, but i think Jitte just is better anyway.

Jitte is good and I like FoD but playing both is way too mana intensive. Like you said about FoD not being any bigger than a 4/4 same goes for jitte; unless you topdeck it midgame and have the mana to use it its almost a dead draw. Like what other people say you wanna go first turn creature, 2nd turn creature and start getting the beats on and plowing through. With jitte you gotta wait a few turns to build threats to abuse it with.

If speed is what this deck is about, rancor should get the nod just because its 1 mana one time not 4 with 2 more to switch around. Dont get my wrong I like jitte, best equipment ever and just the versitility of it can change a game. gain some life, kills 1/1s all day and when paired with rancor, gg huge pump + trample. A possibility is to move jitte to the SB but theres little room to work with.

Its just that this deck has little to no room to work with when it comes to taking things out for something else. Might as well make this deck 100 cards and have all the stuff we want :P

[Viscosity]

Nothing I've stated is based on anything other than playing the deck in legacy events and play testing dozens of games against competitive and competent legacy players/decks.

I only ran the deck twice in legacy events, placing 2nd and 3rd. But I'm preparing better decks for GP Chicago, so I won't have any reports on RGW zoo.

The small differences between running one creature or another are irrelevant. The inherent problem is the same problem that RG beats had when it first started during Ice Age block; lack of card draw or deck manipulation, a weakness to removal, and a weakness to combo.


Yes i'm being asshole

Hey, we agree on something! :eek:

[Captain Hammer]

The inherent problem is the same problem that RG beats had when it first started during Ice Age block; lack of card draw or deck manipulation, a weakness to removal, and a weakness to combo.

If your game plan is to win before turn 4-5, why do you need card draw?

You're only weak to mass removal, which no one plays, you can afford to lose creatures to StP and Snuff Out because you play 22 creatures to their 4-6 removal spells per deck.

Yes, you lose to combo game one. But game two, you can bring in Gadook Teeg + Canonist + all the other hate that these three colors have access to bring down your opponent.

What do you guys think of my list?

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=315309&postcount=54

[umbowta]

Here is the list that I just put together btw, let me know what you think...

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Taiga
3 Savannah
3 Plateau
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains

4 Kird Ape
4 Nacatl
4 Goyf
4 Watchwolf
3 Thoctar
3 FoD/Grim Lavamancer

4 StP
4 Rancor
4 Bolt
4 Chain
2 Lightning Helix/Fireblast/Magma Jet

IMHO, it's a lot better? than the list in the OP.This list is IMHO, a lot more aggressive than the list in the OP...and a lot closer to what I play. Mine is more aggressive yet; foregoing StP for 2 more Lightning Helix and 2 Fireblast. Furthermore, I prefer 2 Thoctar and 2 FoD to make room for 2 Cursed Scrolls. Whether that means the list is better or not...I dunno.

@Pulp Fiction and Loxodon Baileyarch, what matchups were benefitted when you strenthed the mid game with StP and Jitte, thus becoming less agressive? It's clear to me that your build is at least a full turn slower than it could be, which eliminates any chance to race combo. Can you justify it with results?

[Viscosity]

You're only weak to mass removal, which no one plays.


No one except for everyone that plays EE, WoG, and Deed...



What do you guys think of my list?
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=315309&postcount=54

Looks good. I wouldn't run more than 3 rancor though.

[TheRock]

In a format completely infested with Stifle and Wasteland, and where you absolutely need to win by turn four or win turn five with little effort, how is Figure even a decent threat for Zoo?

I know that Kird Ape isn't the most impressive body in a format of bigger bodies, but Figure is a card that chews up mana you can't afford to spend and simply doesn't get big enough because a 4/5 is simply better than a 4/4. Many of the decks I see here run 19 sources of red or white mana - I wonder how you consistently get to spend three mana on him.

The real problem with Figure is that he doesn't address this deck's problems - he only makes them worse. He isn't a Lavamancer that can win a Goyf stalling match or help you kill him outright or apply the last points without any help (of course, he's not turn one pressure either). He doesn't create immediate pressure like Rancor to help you really go to town. He doesn't remove artifacts like Chalice and he doesn't remove enchantments like Counterbalance, yet he still requires as much mana as those cards. How can you pump him to make him a threat while still playing your sideboard cards?

I know that he is a good card, but with the manabases and sideboard cards I'm currently seeing here, I don't see the match.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@TheRock: That was probably one of the most intelligent things said in this thread. Touche.

@umbowta: I can think of two games in particular where Jitte and Scroll helped me out ALOT. Two weeks ago i played Zoo at my local tournament and i was having a bad night, so i lose round one and get paired down to the local Threshold player here, Kabal. I land the Scroll early in the game, and by the late game, which happens when playing Thresh, he had to end up Stifling my Scroll, and he couldn't find an answer so i killed him with it.

Another game i was playing GB Thresh and i snuck it in under Countertop, and just won with him and a Kird Ape, all 20 points of damage.

For the Jitte i remember watching my buddies playing, and Pulp Fiction was playing Zoo and my other buddy Braves was playing Eva Green, and it got into late game bc they couldn't draw anything relevant and then Pulp drops a Scroll on his FoD(Which we were testing at the time), and went to town, killing a Tombstalker along with a bunch of other shit as well. And hell i've even had a MUC player just scoop to turn 1 Kird Ape turn 2 Jitte. It is just a bomb that everyone fears even if you have no creatures in play.


And i just realized you asked about StP, not Scroll go me haha. StP has been great, especially with all the dumb Dreadnaught running around, no more academy ruins for you! The 2 to 6 to 12 life gain doesn't matter when you are bashing with 3/3's for 1, and it really doesn't matter lategame when sometimes you don't have a chance anyway. I think it's a cureall to creatures(cept shroud ones). Creatures can dodge a Bolt or a Chain, they can't dodge StP.

[Captain Hammer]

tharock, you have a good point.

But what to run in FoD's place in my build above.

I don't like Lavamancer because he makes your Goyfs worse.

I don't want to go under 22 threats because everyone plays a lot of removal these days, atleast where I play.

StP is awesome. Cursed Scroll imo, is too slow and clunky. It's only good if you're down to just one card in your hand. And even then you're spending 3 mana a turn just to do 2 damage. Tons of cards offer a better deal that these days. Why not play that 3cc red enchantment that deals 2 damage a turn automatically, no extra mana investment needed, and no need to be down to just one card in your hand to be usable. Why not just play Fireblast.

[Suneloon]

The whole "Lavamancer makes ur Goyf weaker" argument is not very strong. It is very rare indeed during actual play that this is a problem. Usually because ur opp has the same cards types (+ hopefully more) in his grave as you do. And when it is an issue, the choice to beat or burn is usually a given anyway.

Lavamancer simply wins games.

[Captain Hammer]

Yeah, you're probably right.

FoD is a Pouncing Jaguar half the games, and a 5cc 4/4 the other half the games (basically a much worse Ashenmoor Gouger). Neither card is good enough for Zoo. So why would a combination of the two.

Spending 5 mana for a 4/4 sounds pretty crappy compared to spending one mana for a 3/3 (Wild Nactl) or three mana for a 5/4. He's strictly better than Nantuko Shade, but that's about it.

Lavamancer is quite strong by comparison.

[Valtrix]

I think the question is more about how much Zoo needs a mid to later-game, or rather what it needs to be able to compete there. It's true that Zoo can fish really quickly, but in reality we can't get those kind of wins all the time. We tell the opponent that they have to deal with us somehow, otherwise they're going to get ripped apart. I think there comes a point when we can't really increase the speed of the deck enough to be worthwhile, and thus need to look into improving those matches that last longer than we want (while still not hurting the early game too much).

So, about Figure. Quickly compared to ape, I don't think the extra damage ape might give you would give you more wins versus the times where you couldn't win quickly and now need something more relevant than a 2/3. Figure can be relevant both early and late game. I like him a lot, but even still I couldn't say if he's the right choice of the deck. It is necessary that we have options for mid-late games when we haven't been able to kill fast enough though, because it happens more than we'd like. It's just a matter of finding the right card(s) for that.

(Also, I need to find more good decks to playtest this against =|)

[Lcpdenijs]

What do you guys think about this build?

4 Dark Confidant
1 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Jötun Grunt
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Wild Nacatl

3 Gaea's Might
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
4 Tribal Flames
3 Vindicate

1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Taiga
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

source: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22184)

[Captain Hammer]

Five color Zoo is interesting. Not sure how the manabase works out, but if it does, good for you.

But looking at the list, you need to play better threats.

Neither Jotun Grunt nor Isamaru, are good enough creatures to make the cut imo. I suppose Tin Street works, but only if your meta is full of artifacts.

[Valtrix]

I like dark confidant a lot. I've been thinking lately that it'd be nice to have some kind of draw in the deck. Though I wonder if 4-5 colors is really going to be okay in our kind of environment with only 20 lands. I don't really like it that well after that...I think the creature base is wrong. Isamaru and grunt are both not good for this deck. I also think vexing shusher is better than hooligan if you're going the route of utility creatures.. It has 1 more toughness, and is useful against counterbalance and chalice, where I feel hooligan is only useful against chalice and dreatnaught. and I feel like gaea's might could be something better.

[Lcpdenijs]

The confidant is a real nice addition to the deck and won't hurt that much. 1/3 is land, and a lot of lands also filter your deck. And the casting cost is never higher then 2cc, and almost every cards in the deck deals more damage then 2 so that is a fair trade.

Perhaps 4x thoughtseize is a good idea, since i splashed in black for the confidant. That card can cripple someone.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

"R/G/W Zoo"

That's pretty much all i have to say about Dark Confidant.

[jimmerz213]

"R/G/W Zoo"

That's pretty much all i have to say about Dark Confidant.

Good call.


Maybe we should play only critters with CC 4 or more? Then we could avoid Counterbalance too! :wink:

Have you ever actually played this deck? I have, and turn 1 aggressive critter IS crucial to this deck.

Seriously? Ill be the first to admit, my meta isnt the best to play test in, but I do know what Im doing when it comes to this deck.

Ive been putting a lot of thought into figure vs kird ape lately and I still havent come to a solid conclusion. I think I may make up a couple different lists and test them against my friends.
Also, Mongoose isnt too bad in this deck. You do need thresh for him to be super effective, but a 1/1 shroud for 1 is nice, especially against point removal (burn, swords, that kind of thing). Anyone tried him in the deck yet? Ive used him in goyf/sligh and he won me a couple games, just havent gotten around to tryin him in zoo yet, I cant decide what to cut.

[Valtrix]

Mmm...I don't know about goose. See, I like that he has shroud, but on the other hand...We don't really get threshold all that much. People like to swords our creatures, we don't like to swing if our guys will be killed, and we don't have enough cheap instants to get in the graveyard soon enough.

[jimmerz213]

Yea, thats pretty much what I was thinking, early game he would be a 1/1. Probably until turn 6 or 8 even. Depending the type of deck your against anyway. I may try him randomly, but Im not expecting wonders.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Mmm...I don't know about goose. See, I like that he has shroud, but on the other hand...We don't really get threshold all that much. People like to swords our creatures, we don't like to swing if our guys will be killed, and we don't have enough cheap instants to get in the graveyard soon enough.

I would like to use what you just said to make a point.

This is EXACTLY why Grim Lavamancer belongs in Goyf Sligh and not in Zoo. I couldn't have said it much better.

[jimmerz213]

Thats another good point. I know I never use my burn nearly as much as I would in sligh, or at least for the same reasons. Im much more prone to hold cards until I need to clear a path for creatures or if the burn in my hand will kill the player.

Just not enough GY fodder for lavamancer to be effective.

Keep in mind too, your bound to be facing some form of graveyard hate due to goyf to begin with.

[Linkin Pac]

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Taiga
3 Savannah
3 Plateau
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains

4 Kird Ape
4 Nacatl
4 Goyf
4 Watchwolf
3 Thoctar
3 FoD/Grim Lavamancer

4 StP
4 Rancor
4 Bolt
4 Chain
2 Lightning Helix/Fireblast/Magma Jet



Your list is almost identical to mine, and I must say that it is a doozie. The only differences are that I have 3 Isamaru instead of your 3 FoD/Grim Lavamancers, and 2 extra Lightning Helix and 2 Jitte instead of your Rancors. I too believe 3 Thoctars is the right amount; they are your big muscle later in the game, and with 3 you should draw one each game but not multiples.

I know people will hound me for including Isamaru (no pun intended), but I feel he fits the slot better than both Lavamancer and FoD. I have tested with all three, and Lavamancer is the worst IMO. Rarely will you be able to use his ability more than twice in a game, and one power just doesn't cut it in an aggressive deck. FoD has been beaten to death as to why it's not the greatest in Zoo; simply put, it requires too much mana and is not the most efficient right away. Isamaru will remain the most fitting one mana creature for the deck after Nacatl and Kird Ape.

My main concern right now is deciding whether to substitute my two Jittes for Cursed Scrolls. Pulp Fiction and Loxodon, you both speak highly of Cursed Scroll, and I wonder what you would choose if given the choice between only Jittes or only Scrolls. Jitte just feels like a win-more card to me, and is the worst card you can draw when topdecking. Scroll, on the other hand, is a good draw whenever you get it, so long as you don't have multiples of it (not likely with only 2 in the deck). Zoo is very capable of emptying its hand quickly, meaning that you can probably get a Cursed Scroll going 4th or 5th turn. Also, Scroll can be the only thing that can save you when you get caught in a rut (against Humility/Moat and all the other control elements), and gives you the lasting power that you will usually need. Turn 4 goldfishes are just not going to happen all that much, and you're kidding yourself if you think you don't need a late-game plan. The only problem I see with the scroll is having it be too mana intensive later in the game, when each turn you want to draw a threat, reveal it with Scroll, and then play it.

[umbowta]

The only problem I see with the scroll is having it be too mana intensive later in the game, when each turn you want to draw a threat, reveal it with Scroll, and then play it.You mean later in the game when you have 4 or 5 lands sitting on the table so you can activate Scroll and still play the card you drew fairly easily. I fail to see the problem.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@Linkin Pac: I really don't see how choosing between Scroll and Jitte is even a question at all. That's why we run 2 ofs of each. They are just that good, but not good in multiples. I'm always happy to see Scroll, bc it tells me if the game drags on too long, they probably still lose. (Unless the find an answer of course)

And Jitte is just always awesome, bc even if you cast it with no creatures, it makes your next creature a freaking beast. It really scares your opponent.

And i totally agree on Isamaru, i don't see why people don't like him, they act like the legendary rule is relevant ever. He is just good.

[Frank The Tank]

http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/tcg/products/conflux/yp987956e1/0074_MTGCON_EN_LR.jpg

New SB card for BB, combo etc or too slow at 3 cc?

http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/tcg/products/conflux/yp987956e1/0080_MTGCON_EN_LR.jpg

whats the consensus on this guy?

http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/tcg/products/conflux/yp987956e1/0092_MTGCON_EN_LR.jpg

I know it has way to high of a CC but damn it might as well just say "Draw 5 Cards". Talk about getting more threats. Too bad it doesn't have a place in this deck.



Playing Orims Chant main deck sounds interesting. If not to stop combo its to stall your opponents while you smash face. But what to cut?

[Captain Hammer]

Card One - A decent sideboard option. IMHO, Pyroclasm is usually better, unless you're facing Fairies (that's the only swarm deck I could think of with counterspells).

Card Two - Seems to be pretty much strictly inferior to Figure of Destiny, which most people don't think is good enough anywyas.

Card Three - You want to draw cards to help you find threats bc your opponent already killed/made you discard all of your early ones. If you have a 5/4 on the board already, you're already winning, this is the definition of win more.

[jimmerz213]

The only one of the three I would consider is the first. Pyroclasm is good, but uncounterable pyroclasm...mmmmm.

Its situational at best though.

The other two...not even close to good enough. Maybe, maybe in some kind of type 2 variant, or block constructed, but not legacy imo.

[kicks_422]

Who would counter a Pyroclasm though?

[jimmerz213]

Well..yea. Thats a valid point.


So.


I got nothin.

[Captain Hammer]

Like I said, Fairies!!!!

Volcanic Fallout absolutely dominates in the much revered all Fairies metagame.

[sephorusFR]

Speaking of bad cards :

http://www.magictrade.org/rubriques/database_php/images/scans_magic/10277_69_1.jpg

is it any good ?
We'll surely have both R and W permanent on turn 4, leading to a 5/3 hasted LL beast.
What about playing 2 of this instead of thoctar or is extra toughness of thoctar more relevant ?

[jimmerz213]

I had the pleasure of playing against a Cliffrunner Behemoth today in the pre-release event I went to. Yea, hes good. But I just cant get over his 3 sized ass and 4cc....if only he wasnt so bad, hed be good. Ya know?

Its from a couple pages back, but yea. Hes not great.

-Ass of 3 = bad
-4cc = bad
Lifelink/Haste = mediocre

So, I wouldnt. But its your call.

[sephorusFR]

OK, I missed you post sorry. I'll give it a try but indded the 3-ass is maybe the main drawback.

Thanks for you insight

[jimmerz213]

No problem, it was the last line of a pretty lengthy post so I dont blame ya :p

And lemme know how he works, Im curious.

[Captain Hammer]

Also, with all the removal out there, there is no guarentee that you will control a white and red permanent on turn 4.

The point is to play threats that are good by themselves. Because you can't count on keeping other threats in play already. If you do keep other threats in play, you're already winning usually.

But mainly it's the 4cc, the lack of trample or first strike, and the ass of 3 that make him really bad.

I would rather play Iwamori of Open Fist than him.

Atleast Trample and and an ass of 5 are good useful abilities. And there are no preconditions for him to get them.

[Joon]

So, after picking up several cards to play Rgw Goyf Sligh I read this primer. I'm currently testing this and it seems, at least in my testing, more successfull than Goyf Sligh was.

Anyways, here is my list for an unprepared Metagame:

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Savannah
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
1 Horizon Canopy

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Watchwolf
3 Woolly Thoctar

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Helix

4 Path to Exile
2 Rancor

4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Vexing Shusher
4 Ancient Grudge
3 Pithing Needle

The Paths and the Rancors were amazing in testing! Attacking Turn 2 with an enchanted Onedrop is pretty strong (5/3 Trample Nacatl anyone?), But it's also a nice Topdeck to break Goyfstalls (my 6/5 Trample Goyf against your 4/5 :rolleyes: ) or to make two threats dangerous.

Path is also really solid, at least in this deck. You don't use it in the early turns, for critters played in the Earlygame you have your Burn (Dreadnought is an exception, obviously). Path is played in the EoT of Opponent at best, so that he has the advantage only if he survives the next turn (against many decks EoT path your critter is gg in the midgame).
Feel free to test it, but don't use it in the early game unless you are forced to do so (Reanimate.dec or Nought).

The Sideboard is somehow not that good imo. I'm tinkering with removing Canonists to completely ignore the Combo MU. But on the other hand - what should I play in that slot then?

Thanks.

[Captain Hammer]

Your list looks awesome. Nice build.

As for the replacement for Canonist, I would try Gadook Teeg. It's buys time against combo and against decks that play stuff like Wrath or Disk etc.

I would also play Choke in Ancient Grudge's slot. It screws over a lot more decks.

[Joon]

Your list looks awesome. Nice build.

Thanks :smile:



As for the replacement for Canonist, I would try Gadook Teeg. It's buys time against combo and against decks that play stuff like Wrath or Disk etc.

Yeah, I thought about him. He stops every spell combo can use to go off fast (IGG, Returns, Ad Nauseam) and obviously their kill, but he is also good against UWx Landstill for example, where he stops EE, Wrath, Humility, Force and FoF if they're running it. He also stops hardcast Decree :tongue: Well and all these new Planeswalkers like Elspeth, which is played here in Germany quite often and Ajani from the board. Looks like a solid card.
But against Landstill I want to board in Needles, too.

I think I'd board out 4 Paths and 2 Rancors against Landstill to get 4 Teeg and 2 Needles from the board. The Peedles are important to handle EE (EE and Ruins ruin our day if he reaches 3-4 Mana), Manlands and Planeswalkers that are played before you get Teeg online.



I would also play Choke in Ancient Grudge's slot. It screws over a lot more decks.


I thought about that but dismissed it because in my opinion it was an too expensive card for such an aggressive deck. Choke comes down turn 3 (more likely turn 4 to avoid Daze) but to that time you could have burned your opponent to death. Dunno if Choke is worth it, but I'll test it out.

[Frank The Tank]

The problem I run into when i side in Gadook Teeg for wrath etc you can bet your ass they are playing Swords or Exiles too.

[Joon]

Yeah, obviously, but Teeg forces them to handle it with their Swords and due our speed this stalling can be enough already (at least enough time to refill our hand). In addition to that a sworded Teeg is a sword less that targets a Goyf or a Thoctar.

[GreenOne]

4 Watchwolf

Why not a 2/2 split with Grunt? It can help vs opposing Goyfs (when you don't have your own) and against grave based decks (Loam, Ichorid, EE recursion, Manland/Wasteland recursion with Crucible, Survival, Mongoose). It's also 1 power more, even if it survives just a couple of turns.

[Joon]

With Grunt you can't be aggro. If you play it Turn 2 he won't survive long enough to push damage through opponents defenses. He is a good lategame card, a gamestate Zoo is not willing to reach. Grunt could be a decent sideboard option against decks that fill the yard fast (Loam, Dredge). The only question is - do you need SB material against those decks?

[MANMAN]

I'm trying a build that sacrifices some of the power for more utility.

4 Wild Nactal
4 Kird Ape/ Skyshroud Elite
3 Mogg Fanatic

4 Gaddock Teeg
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tin-Street Hooligan
3 Ethersworn Cannonist

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Pyroblast
3 Of some other good burn spell, probably Chain Lightning

4 Wasteland
3 RG Fetchland
3 WG Fetchland
3 RG Dual
2 WG Dual
2 RW Dual
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains

[Captain Hammer]

Manman, that build sacrifices WAY too much for too little gain imho. Where's the finishers, the big beatsticks, the pump or StP/PtE to deal with guys that are out of burn range?

First, Teeg is legendary. I wouldn't play beyond 3 maindeck.

Also, Ethersworn Canonist is NOT a good card to maindeck imo. It hurts combo but beyond that it hurts your own deck far more than it does an average opponent's deck.

Outside of combo, your build is the lowest curved deck in the metagame. So you'll be a lot more likely to want to play out multiple threats/burn in one turn than most opponents.

If combo is prevalent enough that you want maindeck hate for it, please don't play Zoo in the first place. Zoo has about the worst matchup agianst combo of any deck.

If you want utility, cut the two weakest creatures (Isamaru and Watchwolf) in Joon's build and replace them with utility.

So basically play this...

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Savannah
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
1 Horizon Canopy

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Gadook Teeg
3 Tin-Street Holligan
3 Woolly Thoctar

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Helix

4 Path to Exile
2 Rancor

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Path to Exile... is terrible for the deck.

I'm willing to debate that some with whoever wants to.

[jimmerz213]

I agree, to a point. I think its a meta call overall. In mine, Im going to run swords. Simply because people play a LOT of basic lands. In a meta where its heavy nonbasics (lots of multi color decks or whatever the reason) then, and only then, would exile be better imo.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I just don't see the life gain being ANY problem at all except MAYBE when you hit a Dreadnaught with it, besides that i don't think ramping the opponent is worth it.

But it is great against TA:cool:

[jimmerz213]

Well yea, exactly. You should have enough creatures in play to counter any lifegain from swords, hence why I use it.

And I wouldnt use it if I knew they had basics, like I said. But you cant dispute that its better than swords when they get absolutely nothing for the loss of the creature.

So its situational I suppose. I would run swords over it any day though since you never really know what the decks are gonna have.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Savannah
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
1 Horizon Canopy

Nice mana-base my friend :cool:

[GreenOne]

Well yea, exactly. You should have enough creatures in play to counter any lifegain from swords, hence why I use it.
I don't know. Swords "fog" effect on your next attack can matter sometimes, where the land (+shuffle) you give them might be useless for them.
As example, on turn 2/3 UGW thresh is playing a goyf. They probably won't need the 3rd/4th land unless they play (and have in hand) an Oblivion Ring or an Enforcer AND they don't have already another land in hand. Otherwise it's just useless. Since you're playing Path as midgame removal then they might already have enough lands in play.
I found Path to exhile to be a better card in boros (life matters A LOT), but I don't know if it's better here too. Sure it's better in some circumstances, you just need to recognize qhich situations will come more often in your meta.

[Frank The Tank]

I used to run swords but then I started to run into alot of Loxodon Hierarchs and that life gain slows you down so much.

[Captain Hammer]

Nice mana-base my friend :cool:

It's the same manabase as in the OP and Joon's build, but yeah, I know right?

Like I said in that post, that was Joon's exact build but with his Watchwolfs and Isamarus (the two weakest creatures in his deck imo) replaced with utiilty creatures, because that's what Manman was looking for, more utility.

Frankly, GADOOK TEEG IS FANTANSTIC against everything. Yes, your opponent always kills it asap. But that's just one less removal spell your opponent has to take out your Thoctor/Tarmogoyf.

I think every single Zoo build should play 3 Gadook Teeg cutting away stuff like Isamaru or even Watchwolf.

The 3 Tin-Street Hooligan only makes sense in an artifact heavy metagame though.

So I suppose the perfect build would look like this...

List looks okay. I would up the anti-combo cards in your sideboard though, just because I don't like the idea of autolosing to any and all storm based combo. But hey, it's all about what you expect ot face.

Here is the list that I would play...

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Savannah
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Gadook Teeg
3 Woolly Thoctar
2 Additional Creatures

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Lightning Helix
2 Price of Progress/Fireblast

4 PtE/StP
2 Rancor

The two additional creatures would probably be Watchwolf. But a case could be made for any of the following...

Watchwolf
Isamaru, Hound of Konda
Figure of Destiny
Skyshroud Elite
Skyshroud War Beast

or if additional utility is desired...

Grim Lavamancer
Goblin Legionaire
Vexing Shusher
Tin-Street Hooligan
Ethersworn Canonist

Everyone of these creatures probably merits some consideration/discussion.

[Pulp_Fiction]

@Frank the Tank: If you are running into a LOT of Rock decks in your meta, say 30% or more, play something else like Dredge. Otherwise, just SB in Needles for Deed and hope for the best. But remember, decks like Rock are supposed to beat aggro decks like Goblins, Zoo, and Affinity. Most people are afraid to run Hierarchs because Goyf exists, but those smart enough to run Hierarchs in Rock, it spells really bad news for Zoo.

@ Joon: Pretty solid list, Teeg is better in the board VS everything which is why he is run. Cannonist is better at stopping storm combo but thats it. Teeg stops EE, Wrath, Belcher, etc. Play Rancor at your own risk, but it will hurt in the long run, and when you start getting 2-1ed it can catch up to you fast.

As a new idea to the deck, my list is still the same in the opening post, except I have cut 1x Isamaru and put in 1x Path to Exhile. 22x instead of 23 creatures doesn't make any kind of noticeable difference. Randomly when goldfishing I kept getting 2 Isamaru and decided to cut one to avoid this, which still keeping the consistency of a turn 1 creature in tact. I am searching for hidden gem creatures to replace Goblin Legionnaire but there really just aren't any better. FoD sucks to much early on, however, since these slots are usually sided out, it does not make much of a difference.

[Frank The Tank]

has anyone tried playing Skyshroud War Beast (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=5231&type=card) at least in the side?

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@FrankTheTank: That card seems good against Landstill??

[Captain Hammer]

You're right Frank the Tank, that card does seem like it has potential. Against certain decks it'll be a 3/3 minimum, and a 4/4 or even 5/5.

I edited and added it to my list of playable creatures in the post below the OP.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

List looks okay. I would up the anti-combo cards in your sideboard though, just because I don't like the idea of autolosing to any and all storm based combo. But hey, it's all about what you expect ot face.

Here is the list that I would play...

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Savannah
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
1 Horizon Canopy

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Gadook Teeg
3 Woolly Thoctar
2 Additional Creatures

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Lightning Helix
2 Price of Progress/Fireblast

4 PtE/StP
2 Rancor

In my opinion, the above list is a more representative Zoo list than the list in the opening post.

The two additional creatures would probably be Watchwolf. But a case could be made for any of the following...

Watchwolf
Isamaru, Hound of Konda
Figure of Destiny
Skyshroud Elite
Skyshroud War Beast

or if additional utility is desired...

Grim Lavamancer
Goblin Legionaire
Vexing Shusher
Tin-Street Hooligan
Ethersworn Canonist

Everyone of these creatures probably merits some consideration/discussion

Have you even played Zoo enough to even develop an opinion? Because it's not really cool to say "in your opinion" that your list is more accurate at all.

Me and Pulp have played and playtested the list we run week after week with several top eights under out belt, in a meta that consists of competitive decks.

No offense to your "opinion" or anything, i just think that is a dick move. But hey, maybe i'm the asshole here.

[Captain Hammer]

Fine, I edited out my opinion that the list in the OP doesn't seem like a typical or ideal zoo list. No hard feelings

Yes, I have played the deck enough to form an opinion. But yes, you have more experience with the deck and more playtime under your belt.

So maybe you're right about your build.

It just doesn't seem like the the typical list. No one plays Goblin Legionaire. I've never ran into a build that did anyways. It's practically a 3cc shock. And I sincerely tried but grew to dislike FoD the more I played with it as did a lot of people here.

Not including Chain Lightning certainly seems like a mistake. Your bolt effects lets you trade even your small creatures with every single creature in the format except for Dreadnought. And the burn also add tremendous reach. So it's never ever ever dead. Other than burn and sligh, none of the decks in the format have a manabase capable of bouncing Chain Lightning back at you so that's really not an issue. And even against those very occasional burn/sligh decks, you can easily time Chain to be most advantagous to you.

And yet, you didn't even mention Chain Lightning in your primer. That seems to be a pretty big oversight.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@Captain Hammer: It isn't the typical list really. People just think Zoo has to kill your opponent by turn four through 6 or the deck isn't playing right. That isn't true. Sure the decks strengths are in cheap efficient beaters but that doesn't mean you have to run Rancor and Fireblast in every build.

And Chain Lightning has been tested, ALOT. The sorcery speed of it all makes it a headache to play when you could just replace it. And trust me i've had Chain turned around on my ass so many times.. It just sits there dead in my hand. Hell if anything i'd rather have Ancient Grudge or Gaddock Teeg in that spot.

Goblin Legionnaire is mana intensive yes, but just look at our list, it has the possibility to kill the opponent quickly just as much as other lists, but it also is a HOUSE in the mid to late game as well.

But yeah no hard feelings, it's just the internet after all :cool:

[Frank The Tank]

I guess I will toss in my build while we are at it.

// Lands
1 [UNH] Mountain
1 [UNH] Forest
3 [R] Taiga
2 [R] Savannah
1 [UNH] Plains
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [R] Plateau

// Creatures
3 [ALA] Woolly Thoctar
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [RAV] Watchwolf
4 [R] Kird Ape
2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg

// Spells
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [RAV] Lightning Helix
4 [R] Lightning Bolt
2 [TE] Cursed Scroll
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
2 [UL] Rancor

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle



I only run 19 lands and I am thinking of cutting it to 18. Also the 2 cursed scrolls help so much late game that it is crazy.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@FrankTheTank: I would add the 20th land at least.
I would go, -1 Woolly Thoctar, -2 Rancor. +1 Savannah, +2 Jitte. Or +1 Gaddock Teeg, +1 Savannah, +1 PTE.

Or you could be pro and run Ancient Grudge in the maindeck:cool:

Also, do you really need Ancient Grudge AND Krosan Grip?

[Pulp_Fiction]

Yeah, good to see there is another person in this thread who has actually tested out Cursed Scroll and see how good it is. Running 18 lands is not a good plan. You can try it, but when you start losing to prison effects and 1-2 Wastelands/Sinkholes, it will be bad times. In order to run Thoctar, I think the bare minimum is 19, but I would not go below 20 ever.

Also, Krosan Grip should probably be Naturalize if you are going to run so few lands OR you could run Ray of Revelation in that spot! I used to run that before I had to re-adjust the SB to fit the meta.

[Frank The Tank]

I have been running 19 lands since i started to build this deck and I never have any problems with draws etc. Maybe I am just lucky but I usually smoke decks like Team america.

I used to run Jitte's but since changing them out for rancors they really speed up the deck. I use it more for trample then anything else .

Sure I don't need Ancient Grudge and K Grips in side but i put them in for Vial Goblins etc (Grudge) and Mono blue control, top, deed, Counterbalance, Shackles etc for K Grip. I just really liked the option of the split second for all things blue or the massive removal for stacks, or any other deck with a ton of artifacts.

[waSP]

Have you guys thought about cutting Watchwolfs for Treetop Villages? Betters your mana base without dropping the threat density (it may slow you down a little in some games).

[Lcpdenijs]

Have you guys thought about cutting Watchwolfs for Treetop Villages? Betters your mana base without dropping the threat density (it may slow you down a little in some games).

Don't think it's a good choice.
You can only play one land a turn, it comes into play tapped and takes away 2 mana to activate wich you could use for other (instant or permanent) threats.

[waSP]

I can understand how it shifts how you play the deck a little and that would be hard to adapt to on a purely intellectual level (without having played the deck extensively).

In any case, your curve is really imbalanced, so the CIPT issue won't come up too much. You have to remember that you're replacing a non-land card with a land, so it can just be the 3rd or 4th turn land drop you're missing.

Other than Cursed Scroll, you don't need tons and tons of mana after turn 3 or 4. If you think you do (you don't), let me suggest Radha, Heir to Keld.

[Lcpdenijs]

I can understand how it shifts how you play the deck a little and that would be hard to adapt to on a purely intellectual level (without having played the deck extensively).

In any case, your curve is really imbalanced, so the CIPT issue won't come up too much. You have to remember that you're replacing a non-land card with a land, so it can just be the 3rd or 4th turn land drop you're missing.

Other than Cursed Scroll, you don't need tons and tons of mana after turn 3 or 4. If you think you do (you don't), let me suggest Radha, Heir to Keld.

I just dont get why you would cut a nice 3/3 critter for something that slows the deck down and costs mana to even use.
I am one of those guys that thinks RGW zoo is supposed to be fast.
And offcourse I don't need tons of mana, 2 lands in play shoudl be enough for the deck to rock.

Just checked on www.deckcheck.net, not one Treetop Village seen there in the played zoo decks.
Not that deckcheck is the holy grail, but it says alot about Treetop Village.

[waSP]

I found 70 decklists running Villages. Here's a beatz list from a couple months ago: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22453

Looks like his meta had a lot of land destruction.

Watchwolf hurts your curve more than Treetop Village (especially when it's the weakest creature in your deck--slow, not big enough, susceptible to mass removal).

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I found 70 decklists running Villages. Here's a beatz list from a couple months ago: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22453

Looks like his meta had a lot of land destruction.

Watchwolf hurts your curve more than Treetop Village (especially when it's the weakest creature in your deck--slow, not big enough, susceptible to mass removal).

Please note, that that deck is R/G only, and that this is the RGW Zoo thread.

And also note that, Treetop Village sucks balls in this deck.

[Radiant]

I found 70 decklists running Villages. Here's a beatz list from a couple months ago: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22453

That's just a completely different deck? :eyebrow:

[waSP]

I was pointing out his statement was blatantly untrue. The linked list is not a very good list for many other reasons.

R/G/W zoo only became better than R/G with the printing of Wild Nacatl (Wooly Thoctar didn't hurt, either).

Baileyarch:
In which matchups does Treetop Village "suck balls" in this deck?

This'll sound snooty, but really, a better knowledge of the history of your deck will give you a better sense of what is possible with it.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

For one, it leaves you open to Wasteland. The tempo loss from just that alone is crippling.

You always want to make a turn 1 2/2 or 2/3 or 3/3.

And the fact that your land can be hit by a removal spell is just stupid. It doesn't help towards the required forest, plains, mountain for Kird Ape or Wild Nacatyl. You can't fetch it.

And it doesn't even help late game either, like Cursed Scroll.

Shit if those aren't reasons enough to run it then idk what else is. This is Zoo not Rock.

Maybe this will sound snooty, but saying i don't know my deck history to justify a bad card for a good deck just doesn't make sense.

But hey, once again, maybe i'm the asshole here:laugh:



P.S.-This deck didn't become three colors because Thoctar or Nacatyl my friend. They are broken yes, but there is plenty of good other white combinations to add another color too.

[jimmerz213]

And also note that, Treetop Village sucks balls in this deck.

Yea. I agree. It is far too slow. Not to mention, Im fairly certain you cant equip a Jitte on a village. I could be wrong though, I havent ever played a man land deck enough to know.

Having your land come into play tapped is bad in this deck. Its bad in just about any competitive deck, especially one that thrives on tempo. Lets say for example you top deck it turn 3. Its your 4th land (a very nice land to have in play, while not crucial it helps). So you play it, its tapped. They top deck a wasteland and bam, its gone before you can use it. If that were any other land, you could have used it before it died. Trust me on this (I play against a lot of LD in my meta) it helps to be able to tap it first turn out. It keeps your critters coming even with what little land I can keep in play.

And for as long as Ive played Zoo, its been RGW. And it will most likely stay that way. Even back when Savannah Lions and Isamaru were the main threats, I had white in the list.

The deck that took 4th in that tournament (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22450) is a much, much, much better zoo build.
And look! No manlands...

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@jimmerz213: Yeah i took a look at that list when i saw it get posted. It's very straightforward FireBlast, Lavamancer, goldfish Zoo-ish deck.

It reminds me of Goyf Sligh splash white. It runs alot of burn. And like i've always been afraid of PoP bc it would usually deal me like 8 damage.

The card just doesn't seem right for Zoo.

[Valtrix]

You can equip jitte on a village, however at the end of turn it becomes unequipped. So yeah, if you have five lands in play its a good combination...Right.

I don't think price is right for zoo either. It just hurts you too much, while providing no room to remove something.

[jimmerz213]

You can equip jitte on a village, however at the end of turn it becomes unequipped.

Thats what I figured. That really makes it a lot weaker than watchwolf right there. Jitte is a powerhouse.

[waSP]

One last point about Treetop Village. I'm not suggesting you replace lands you are already running with it. I'm suggesting you play 2 of them instead of Watchwolf (or some random creatures). So, when you play them, if they soak up a Wasteland or get Swordsed or removed some other way, you're protecting your other creatures or your mana base. Treetop Village will never make you miss a land drop. Saying that it makes your creature base vulnerable to Wasteland is your best criticism.

I think the difference in our reactions to cards is mostly in approach. I'm comfortable playing R/G/w as a permissionless aggro control deck. Sounds like you guys are trying to play it straight aggro with a few utility cards. The lists are similar but the strategy is probably very different.

I don't think Jitte is very good game 1 in a lot of matchups (I like it a lot out of the board). Either they will have a removal card (in which case Jitte costs 6 to have any impact) or Jitte will end up as just another piece of the clock (ramping creatures will make you faster). Rancor is much better in the typical case (faster, cheaper, supplies its own evasion).

But I'm going to shut up and let you guys have your aggro thread back.

[umbowta]

But I'm going to shut up and let you guys have your aggro thread back.

Thank you, and please don't ever link me to some crappy decklist that is running Emperor Crocodile...ever again. This is not the source for lameacy. No Treetop. No Crocodiles. Just no.

[Omega]

Extended zoo usually run 4-5 color to play Dark confidant as a card to general card advantage, they also used to play Vindicate (which is a good removal against CB). Black also gives discards as an additional tool against combo deck.

Perhaps it has been discussed already, but i just wanted to say this :)

[Frank The Tank]

I have always liked Burning-Tree Shaman but I can't think of anything it is good against besides Top. Not saying it should be included just discussing the card.

[Captain Hammer]

Thank you, and please don't ever link me to some crappy decklist that is running Emperor Crocodile...ever again. This is not the source for lameacy. No Treetop. No Crocodiles. Just no.

Be fair now. He never recommended Crocodile. And Treetop isn't a bad card per se. It just doesn't fit this deck's play style at all, but a slower deck it would work in very well. So need to be so hard on the suggestion. I think the better question is, why would anyone ever opt to play Treetop Village instead of Nantuko Monastery in a deck that could support it.

P.S: No, manlands shouldn't be in this deck. I'm just wondering why someone would consider Treetop Village before Nantuko Monastry in the first place.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Ok the manland discussion dies in 3....2....1....

Ok so yeah. I played this deck at a local tournament the other night, and ending up going 2-3. I beat Survival and Dreadstill, only to lose to Dreadstill(Counterbalance) twice after that, and then Dredge.

The only modifications to my deck are -2 FoD, +2 Gaddock Teeg. My meta is heavy blue and when he resolved it REALLY helped.

I was just so pissed bc Counterbalance just BEATS this deck without Shusher. And that's how i lost 4 games in a row. I've been tinkering with some ways to work around Counterbalance, and all i can really think of is, A) Run Grip in the maindeck, which is clunky and SOMETIMES dead, or B) Run Shusher in the maindeck which is just a bear in some matchups.

This deck just needs a way to beat that two card combo...

[Captain Hammer]

Well, I would just run 4 Shusher and 3-4 Grip in the sideboard.

One maindeck option you left off is Tin-Street Holligan. It's not mana intensive but it takes out lots of artifacts, not just Top, but Dreadnoughts, stuff in affinity, Crucibles etc.

[Frank The Tank]

How does Tin-Street Holligan get rid of top? All they do is tap it in response to put it back on top of their library. That is the main reason why I run Kgrips.

[Viscosity]

The only modifications to my deck are -2 FoD, +2 Gaddock Teeg. My meta is heavy blue and when he resolved it REALLY helped.

I was just so pissed bc Counterbalance just BEATS this deck without Shusher.

I'm main decking 2 teeg and 2 GRIP. Gotta have the grip;it almost always helps.

Per your previous comment about it not being 3 colors for thoctar or Nacatl.
I disagree. NACATL is exactly why this deck is RGW. that and swords. But the Nacatl is the driver.

This deck archetype started as RG beats (Goyf Sligh.) The addition of a 3/3 for 1 when shards was printed is what morphed Goyf-sligh into a RGW zoo variant. Once you've added white, swords comes in of course. Teeg, Watch-Wolf, FoD, and Thoctar are all optional cards subject to change. Some lists even run 3x swords. But you ALWAYS have 4x Nacatl.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

This deck has almost always had Savannah Lions, Goblin Legionnaire, Swords to Plowshares, etc.

Nacatyl and Thoctar are REALLY good, but i don't think that's why this deck is GRW.

[Viscosity]

This deck has almost always had Savannah Lions, Goblin Legionnaire, Swords to Plowshares, etc.

Nacatyl and Thoctar are REALLY good, but i don't think that's why this deck is GRW.

I guess I never noticed a deck with legionnaire and lions because that sounds totally old school and not very good. This particular build developed recently, I imagine most people who threw this together, did so after reading Nacatl. At least that's why I built it.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Ravnica helped alot with Watchwolf and Lightning Helix too.

The deck has been around for a while, it's just that Nacatyl made it much better.

[Captain Hammer]

Before this gets out of hand. You guys are both right.

1.) R/G/W Zoo as a deck has been around since Savannah Lion first got printed. The idea of playing the best weenies and removal (StP) that white has, the best beaters and pump that green has, and the best burn that red has predates Vintage as a format. And it's been called Zoo for most of that time as well. So saying that R/G/W Zoo wasn't around before Nacatl is patently false.

2.) R/G/W Zoo hadn't been considered viable by most people and hadn't been popular in Legacy till Wild Nacatl got printed. Yes people including I'm guess Loxodan did play it for Lion/Isamaru, Helix, StP, Watchwolf and a few other goodies. And they probably did quite well with it and thus might understand the deck better than the newcomers. But most aggro players stuck with either Red Sligh, 9 Land Stompy or the combination of the two, R/G Aggro.

3.) Nacatl (and Thoctor) gave the deck that critical push that made all the R/G Aggro players go, hey, splashing white is definately worth it now. It gave the deck the push it needed (both in terms of the new threats and in terms of new players) to be a viable contendor in the format. If Zoo winds up as a deck to beat someday (and it very well may), it's going to be because of Wild Nacatl and the new players that card brought along with it.

[Viscosity]

Well said.

I didn't know RGW was seriously played that long ago. I always thought 3 color decks were iffy until fetch lands arrived.

Anyway, I was someone who saw Nacatl and thought, "This is better than 8 kird apes!" And took RG beats and added white for the Cat and StP.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Seriously pre-Goyf this deck dominated.

Counterbalance has been a problem since it was printed. But meh.

The creatures were just so good, plus Goyf, Stalker, Dreadnaught, none of those were around. Meaning, hey we can burn everything!

But yeah i've loved the deck since Rav block came around.

[jimmerz213]

I remember playin this deck back when Lions Eye Diamond had 0 use in any format/deck/binder anywhere.

Then storm happened....

But yea, pre-ravnica block was a lot of fun. Lions, wolves, apes, boas. Then more (better) wolves once ravnica dropped. Its been all uphill from there :)

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Yeah slowly the deck comes back! I think WotC do a good job in printing good creatures every set. Now with Nacatl the deck looks viable again : ).

I wish they print some good anti combo dude like Magus of the Piallar!

[Captain Hammer]

Seriously pre-Goyf this deck dominated.

The creatures were just so good, plus Goyf, Stalker, Dreadnaught, none of those were around. Meaning, hey we can burn everything!

Forget pre-goyf, you guys remember pre-fetchlands? The good old days...

Back when burn actually used to be able to kill anything and red was the second best color in magic (instead of the worst).

I always wondered why you Zoo players insisted on splashing white for StP and Savannah Lions when Chain Lightning and Jackal Pup were everybit as good back then (this was before Rav's fetchlands (and Helix) showed up and made manabases twice as ridiculous). :tongue:

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Remember back when you were convinced that Goblin Legionnaire (aka. 3 mana Shock) is a solid card for Zoo...Oh yeah, that was today and probably tomorrow too:tongue:

P.S: I'm still awaiting that PM to test my Doran Sui list versus your Zoo list.

I'd be more than happy for you to come to Georgia to play magic in an actual competitive metagame.

MWS just isn't my thing, i mean it's just not magic. The shuffler sucks compared to my awesome pile shuffling. And without the picture pack i can't see all my foil and textless cards either. So sure i'll be sure to give you directions to SuperGames one day.

And how is Goblin Legionnaire not good again? Yes he is mana intensive(like that FoD you and everyone else likes), but his utility makes him a fine creature. He beats and saves Goyfs and finishes low life opponents and protects you. If that's bad, then ok that's why you haven't won anything with Zoo.

But on to another topic. I was thinking about my two open slots in the maindeck, and an unusual creature came to mind. River Boa. It blocks almost anything all day, Islandwalks those pesky blue decks, and can hold a Jitte all day.

I know he would kinda be weak for the deck, but i was just thinking about tinkering with him. Thoughts? :cool:

[Captain Hammer]

I'd be more than happy for you to come to Georgia to play magic in an actual competitive metagame.

MWS just isn't my thing, i mean it's just not magic. The shuffler sucks compared to my awesome pile shuffling.

And how is Goblin Legionnaire not good again? Yes he is mana intensive(like that FoD you and everyone else likes), but his utility makes him a fine creature.

Yeah MWS's shuffler does suck. But no I'm not driving 300 miles just to play you. My meta is plenty competitive as it is thank you. If you want, PM me and I'll send you directions and you can drive up.

For the record, I stopped liking FoD a while ago. It seemed awesome when it first came out. But it just costs too much mana. It sounds like most of the other people here came to the same conclusion. Which is the same reason why IMO Legionaire sucks. Too much mana for too little effect.

Can't comment on Boa. It's been years since I played him in anything. On one hand, Islandwalk seems better than flying these days, but on the other hand, he's a pretty weak creature though.

[Viscosity]

Goblin Legionnaire?


Bad Idea...



River Boa?


Great Idea... River Boa is amazing.. I've done some play testing with him in other decks, and he a serious problem for anything running blue.. I don't even know why I didn't think of adding him to zoo.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I have been thinking about a new SB but I really am just not sure that cutting Pyroclasm is such a hot idea. In my meta you have to have these cards:

3x Pithing Needle
3x Gaddock Teeg
some number of Ancient Grudge
3x Vexing Shusher

Running just 2 Needle sounds lame, as it does with the other cards mentioned. But, with this deck having its problems with Counterbalance, maybe KGrip should come in the SB as a 2-of. Possibly something like:

3x Needle
3x Teeg
3x Shusher
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Krosan Grip
2x Pyroclasm

Baileyarch just got rocked by Counterbalance on wednesday, so maybe it is time to rethink the SB in our meta. Because of all the people playing Dreadnoughts and Shackles in our meta Ancient Grudge can't be cut entirely. But since KGrip is also artifact removal it could fill one slot from Grudge, and this actually gives the deck access to enchantment removal (probably not necessary, but it can't hurt). And instead of running just Shusher as an answer to Counterbalance, you now have 2 more, for a total of 5 answers. Should help quite a bit.

But with just 2 Pyroclasm in the board it got me thinking, since the Goblins, Elves, and Merfolk matchups are already just spectacular for us anyway, maybe cut those and put in some more storm combo hate? I am not sure which I like better, Thorn of Amethyst or Orim's Chant. For a deck as aggressive as Zoo, probably Thorn, since with Chant you have to keep mana open, and with Thorn you just drop it then keep kicking ass. In a deck that runs just 21 lands I don't think you would be able to pull off Sphere of Resistance (and it would slow you down quite a bit). I don't like the Cannonist since it is easier to deal with. Thorn just stops everything.

Regarding those 2 open slots in the deck. I am testing out Plant Elemental from Portal as a 1-of. 1G, 3/4, when it comes into play sac a forest or sac it. At first it would look like the tempo loss would kill you, but not really. 21 lands is key, and as a 1-of it most likely won't be in your opening hand. The card is fucking awesome from what I have tested out (and it helps against Dredge). The other open slot I have just been using a single Figure of Destiny since I recently cut 1 Isamaru for Path to Exhile. Here is my updated list:

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Kird Ape
4x Wild Nactal
4x Watchwolf
2x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
2x Woolly Thoctar
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Lightning Helix
4x Lighting Bolt
2x Cursed Scroll
2x Jitte
1x Path to Exhile
1x Plant Elemental
1x Figure of Destiny

4x Wooded Foothills
4x Windswept Heath
3x Taiga
3x Plateau
3x Savannah
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Forest

Sideboard

3x Pithing Needle
3x Vexing Shusher
3x Gaddock Teeg
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Krosan Grip
2x Thorn of Amethyst

[Viscosity]

Why not play ethersworn cannonist over Thorn of Amethyst? It's a beat stick and stops ANT. Alongside Teeg, you win.

3x Pithing Needle
3x Vexing Shusher
3x Gaddock Teeg
3x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Krosan Grip

^ This is what I'd do.

I see grudge being a total bomb against Stax and Faerie stompy, but a little lackluster in other match-ups. Grip on the other hand, is always good.

[umbowta]

Top 4-ed at the GPT yesterday.

Round 1 Vs Dreadstill, I win 2-0
Round 2 MasterShake and I intentional draw
Round 3 Vs It's The Fear, I lose 0-2
Round 4 Vs R/b Vial Goblins, I win 2-1
Top 8 VS It's The Fear, I win 2-0
Top 4 VS MasterShake playing U/W Landstill. He wins the die roll...and the Match 1-2. During game one some spectators were complaining that I wouldn't just concede under Academy Ruins recurring EE. I gently explained to them that my opponent wasn't putting any pressure on me whatsoever so I was using the opportunity to see as much of his deck as possible. Doesn't everyone do that when the round isn't timed?

Reflections: I was running StP out of the board and liked it there, actually, I squeezed one into the main deck just for the hell of it. The only time I was really glad to have StP was against Gobbos when I pulled Chain Lightning and popped in the StPs. Jitte would have been better but you guys know I run Rancor instead, however, I kept finding myself wishing Rancor was just another Lightning bolt. Sideboard still needs Needles

[Valtrix]

So, I orginally did think that thorn would be better than the creatures because it slows down their cantripping and makes them wait a turn to play bounce, however I now believe that teeg + canonist is the right way to go. I say both because just devoting 4 slots to combo is worthless. You need more than that to get an answer consistently, and if you get multiples it starts to make it very hard for them to answer. Anyway, the biggest reason why they're better than thorn is because they're creatures. That means they can help you win faster, but more importantly can't be answered by duress.

Orim's chant is definitely a bad card against combo in this deck. First, you have to keep mana open, and second they can get it with duress, and third is that if you use it to stop them, you've used up your answer and they might be able to go off next turn.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Top 4-ed at the GPT yesterday.

Round 1 Vs Dreadstill, I win 2-0
Round 2 MasterShake and I intentional draw
Round 3 Vs It's The Fear, I lose 0-2
Round 4 Vs R/b Vial Goblins, I win 2-1
Top 8 VS It's The Fear, I win 2-0
Top 4 VS MasterShake playing U/W Landstill. He wins the die roll...and the Match 1-2. During game one some spectators were complaining that I wouldn't just concede under Academy Ruins recurring EE. I gently explained to them that my opponent wasn't putting any pressure on me whatsoever so I was using the opportunity to see as much of his deck as possible. Doesn't everyone do that when the round isn't timed?

Reflections: I was running StP out of the board and liked it there, actually, I squeezed one into the main deck just for the hell of it. The only time I was really glad to have StP was against Gobbos when I pulled Chain Lightning and popped in the StPs. Jitte would have been better but you guys know I run Rancor instead, however, I kept finding myself wishing Rancor was just another Lightning bolt. Sideboard still needs Needles
What is your list my friend? I would love to see it :smile:

[Pulp_Fiction]

So, I orginally did think that thorn would be better than the creatures because it slows down their cantripping and makes them wait a turn to play bounce, however I now believe that teeg + canonist is the right way to go. I say both because just devoting 4 slots to combo is worthless. You need more than that to get an answer consistently, and if you get multiples it starts to make it very hard for them to answer. Anyway, the biggest reason why they're better than thorn is because they're creatures. That means they can help you win faster, but more importantly can't be answered by duress.

Orim's chant is definitely a bad card against combo in this deck. First, you have to keep mana open, and second they can get it with duress, and third is that if you use it to stop them, you've used up your answer and they might be able to go off next turn.

Very true. I didn't even think about Duress. Thorn can actually be Duressed out of your hand before the combo. Cannonist probably is the best combo hate for Zoo. Good call.

@umbowta: A complete list and SB, as well as some comments on the matchups would be appreciated. What kinds of cards you played against that you didn't expect. Any changes you would make? That kind of stuff.

[Frank The Tank]

Does combo really run Duress over Thoughtseize?

[umbowta]

@umbowta: A complete list and SB, as well as some comments on the matchups would be appreciated. What kinds of cards you played against that you didn't expect. Any changes you would make? That kind of stuff.I was hoping to avoid all of that, actually. The wind in my sails is really low right now because I'm really getting tired of Counter/Top aggro control lemmings running around everywhere. I understand that it's clearly the best archtype right now but this stagnant environment is....yaaawwwnn...boring. I did some scouting after beating down Dreadstill in round one and saw tops, trops, and goyfs at every table. Despite my desire to just pack up and go home, I smirked disdainfully when I heard time called. It was really my pleasure to hear whining from those lemmings who were caught in the mirror match.

Here's the list:

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Kird Ape
4x Wild Nactal
4x Watchwolf
2x Figure of Destiny
2x Woolly Thoctar
2x Gaddock Teeg
4x Rancor
1x Swords to Plowshares
3x Lightning Helix
4x Lighting Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
2x Cursed Scroll


4x Wooded Foothills
4x Windswept Heath
3x Taiga
3x Plateau
3x Savannah
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Forest

Sideboard

3x Swords to Plowshares
4x Relic of Progenitus
2x Gaddock Teeg
2x Ancient Grudge
3x Krosan Grip
1x Tormods Crypt


Comments on the matchups:

Round 1 VS Dreadstill. I have no respect for that deck. Once in a while they get turn 2 stifle/nought...who cares. Either they mange to stall my tempo or they die. This time the latter was the case.

Round 2. Since Chris and I began the tradition of IDing if we meet in the swiss one of us ends up winning the event...the tradition continues as we ID'ed and he won the byes.

Round 3 Vs ITF. In game one I have to mull to get a hand with a one drop...yikes. Neither of my guys stick and I scoop to counter/top. I misidentify the deck as Team America and leave relics in the side. Academy Ruins recurring EE and Counterbalance pwn my face in game 2 after ITF stabilizes at 7 life. 1-1-1 sux btw.

Round 4 vs R/b Vial Goblins. I have to win this to make top 8 and I'm very very glad to see something thats not packin counter top...especially gobbos. You all know how this goes. I kill everything relevant and my critters are fatter than his. He did, however, manage to steal a game from me with stupid warrens weirdings.

Top 8 vs ITF. This time I know it's ITF before we even begin and I confidently tell him it's time for some retribution. Rolling a 12 on two d6's was a good start. Nacatls, Apes and Lightning hit hard and fast in game one. In game 2 he mulls to 5 on the play...ouch. One cat drops, two cats, he casts Deed on 3 land and I promptly Grip it EOT. Cats FTW.

Top 4 VS Landstill. Game one he's got recurring EE online by turn 3 and he's smart enough to counter my lightning. Game 2 I win on sheer speed and 2 bolts to the face before he can resolve the Pulse of the Fields he just got from FoF. Game 3 Humility makes me cry and then Elspeth makes it indestuctible two turns before I topdeck a Grip. I have him down to 6 when he gets Pulse off Fact or Fiction again. :cry:

Changes I'd make:

1) Teeg in the main was lame. In the current environment, I'm almost sure I'd rather have Grip. Don't bother trying to tell me Teeg is good against EE. He get's StP'ed all day and they recur EE anyway.

2) Figure of Destiny was unimpressive and there's no chance that it'd ever be bigger than 4/4. I'd rather have Isamaru or just more land and another Thoctar.

3) Rancor was a non-issue all day because it just wasn't in any of my opening grips. When it did show up later I wished it was Lightning, Lavamancer, Emperor Crocodile, or Treetop Village...yes the last two are sarcasm.

4) Needle needs to be in the board. Turn off EE now. Nuff said?

[Frank The Tank]

With all the counter tops running rampent in your meta why not put in Vexing Shusher in side as a 3 or 4 of?

[umbowta]

With all the counter tops running rampent in your meta why not put in Vexing Shusher in side as a 3 or 4 of?

Because Shusher is not a long term solution. It suffers the same fate as Teeg by getting StPed and EEed into oblivion. Speaking of oblivion, UGW is running O-ring in the main now too. Anyway, I'm beginning to believe that counter/top is an epidemic. It's not just running rampant in my area. When the level of competition goes up, those who can, flock to the perceived best deck. At the GPT, nearly 50% of players had counter/top kickin. Yuck.

I think the best answer to the current situation is to remain agressive as hell, diversify the casting costs, and make sure that each card in the deck is an independent threat. The deck could also really use something with evasion and/or haste.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I totally agree we need something with evasion, but I am not sure what to run that doesn't suck and drastically slow the deck down. Really the best option is River Boa. Island walk is basically evasion in this format. But River Boa sucks early on against basically anything with creatures. Its particularly bad against Goyf Sligh, Goblins and Affinity. Something with forestwalk could be good. Vine Dryad sucks in this deck but it has forestwalk and a CC of 3G so it avoids Counterbalance.

The more I think about it, River Boa would probably be the best creature in the evasion slot since it blocks everything Thresh has all day (except Enforcer if he is still run but I haven't seen it in a long fuckin time) and later on is unblockable. Kind of makes me want to put additional Jittes in, but that is a terrible plan, slowing the deck down even more is not the answer.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

The more I think about it, River Boa would probably be the best creature in the evasion slot since it blocks everything Thresh has all day (except Enforcer if he is still run but I haven't seen it in a long fuckin time) and later on is unblockable. Kind of makes me want to put additional Jittes in, but that is a terrible plan, slowing the deck down even more is not the answer.

Amen! I've been preaching River Boa for the past two weeks or so. He just seems so good, he blocks almost anything cept Tombstalker and other pesky fliers.

And i mean yeah he can be StPed, but what creature can't ya know? I think it's worth the risk. And i think he would be a bomb against Gobbos. He just blocks, kills, and regenerates.

[kicks_422]

For an Aggro deck, isn't blocking supposed to be one of the least of your worries? River Boa being a regenerating blocker is a bad reason to run it in Zoo... It being an islandwalker, now that's a good reason.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

You know what i mean. With red Thresh being the most popular at the moment(That's my opinion), just Bolting it won't do anything either. It just seems really good.

[umbowta]

From the OP

R/G/W Zoo is just like it sounds, it is a savagely fast aggro deck that takes advantage of the most efficient and cost effective red/green/white spells in the game.


4x Tarmogoyf
4x Kird Ape
4x Wild Nactal
4x Watchwolf
3x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
2x Goblin Legionnaire/Figure of Destiny
2x Woolly Thoctar
4x Swords to PlowShares
4x Lightning Helix
4x Lighting Bolt
2x Cursed Scroll
2x Jitte

I've bolded the cards on my short list for bottom of this decks' critter effieciency scale. I guess I'd start there with 2-3 River Boas, but sheesh, it just seems weak. Mystic Enforcer would be nice if hitting threshold didn't take forever. I wish Skyknight Legionnaire or Hell's Thunder were just a little bit better. Hey! I have an idea! Lets splash blue for Counterbalance. :tongue:

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

From the OPI've bolded the cards on my short list for bottom of this decks' critter effieciency scale. I guess I'd start there with 2-3 River Boas, but sheesh, it just seems weak. Mystic Enforcer would be nice if hitting threshold didn't take forever. I wish Skyknight Legionnaire or Hell's Thunder were just a little bit better. Hey! I have an idea! Lets splash blue for Counterbalance. :tongue:

Yeah those are indeed the weak links. Yeah he does seem weak, but i mean hey Rancor! :tongue:

And hell yeah, i mean... it'd be like CounterZoo or something. Revolutionizing every metagame, EVERYWHERE!

But yeah, i tried Hell's Thunder... it just belongs in burn.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Some interesting creatures from the search engine at wizards:
http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/index.aspx?term=&Field_Name=on&Field_Rules=on&Field_Type=on&Field_Cost=on&setfilter=All%20sets&colorfilter=Multi-Color&typefilter=Creatures

Boros Guildmage: A bear that does stuff.

Boggart Ram-Gang: 3/3 haste, wither for 3. May have potential, not sure if its better than additional Thoctars.

Radiant Kavu: Funny as hell, infinitely fog faeries and Tombstalkers. Probably danger of cool things. Could be a potential SB card.

Rip-Clan Crasher: RG for a 2/2 haste.

Selesneya Guildmage: Fucking amazing but way to mana intensive.

Spined Sliver: Interesting, a 2/2 for RG with bushido.

Horned Kavu: Also interesting but slows the deck down a lot.

Overall, when trying to fill out those extra slots, I don't think we are going to find any hidden gem creatures that are as good as card like Watchwolf and Goyf. Out of all of those cards I like Radiant Kavu and Spined Sliver, but I don't think either of them would make the cut. River Boa just annoys me, a 2/1 for 2 mana that regenerates is not what the deck needs, it requires mana to keep it alive and only swings for an unblockable 2 a turn :( It needs Goyf/Watchwolf #5 and 6 then it would be fucking sick and nasty!

[Captain Hammer]

It needs Goyf/Watchwolf #5 and 6 then it would be fucking sick and nasty!

I would just play a utility bear in those slots.

Gadook Teeg hurts just about every deck and still beats for two. Vexing Shusher works well against control and aggro control, or Ethersworn Canonist if you fear combo a lot.

Or if you just want a beater, play two more Wolly Thoctor or something.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Or if you just want a beater, play two more Wolly Thoctor or something.
Playing more than two Thoctar is stupid. People just think that this card called Wasteland doesn't exist or something.


But yeah i know, River Boa is weak... Like i'm actually gonna try Hell's Thunder again to be honest. If they counter it, it comes back, and it flys. 3cc might be a problem, but hey that's what testing is for :smile:

[jimmerz213]

Ya know...Ram Gang sounds pretty interesting...
Hes R/G R/G R/G right? Thats not TOO terrible....wither is nice....but he is burnable....anyone ever try him in a deck?

[umbowta]

Playing more than two Thoctar is stupid. People just think that this card called Wasteland doesn't exist or something.


But yeah i know, River Boa is weak... Like i'm actually gonna try Hell's Thunder again to be honest. If they counter it, it comes back, and it flys. 3cc might be a problem, but hey that's what testing is for :smile:
If you're gonna do it, I think you should try it like this
-3x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
-2x Goblin Legionnaire/Figure of Destiny


+1 Taiga
+1 Mountain
+1 Thoctar (for 3 total)
+2 Hell's Thunder

That takes it up to 23 land so you actually have some chance of unearthing the thunder while also helping resolve Thoctar and increasing resiliency to Wasteland. You also diversify the cc and maintain a high independent threat density with 21 creatures, 8 bolts, and 2 Scroll while running the best removal spell in the game alongside the best equipment in the game.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

If you're gonna do it, I think you should try it like this
-3x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
-2x Goblin Legionnaire/Figure of Destiny


+1 Taiga
+1 Mountain
+1 Thoctar (for 3 total)
+2 Hell's Thunder

That takes it up to 23 land so you actually have some chance of unearthing the thunder while also helping resolve Thoctar and increasing resiliency to Wasteland. You also maintain a high independent threat density with 21 creatures, 8 bolts, and 2 Scroll while running the best removal spell in the game alongside the best equipment in the game.
Adding lands and cutting threats makes me cry a little inside... So fuck that. I mean i tested him before and he was "ok".

I might just break down and try burn or something. Idk i make so many tweaks to my deck...

But yeah good call though on the edits. Something my friend mentioned to me yesterday for the sideboard was NullRod, at least in metagame, it PWNs. Everyone wins through CounterTop and Shackles and EE. It shuts off so much stuff. It hurts Jitte and Scroll, but Jitte is just a win more card, and they would both be sided out of course.

Thoughts?

[Pulp_Fiction]

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Kird Ape
4x Wild Nactal
4x Watchwolf
2x Woolly Thoctar
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Lightning Helix
4x Lighting Bolt
2x Chain Lightning
2x Cursed Scroll
3x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Counterbalance

4x Flooded Strand
4x Windswept Heath
3x Tropical Island
2x Taiga
2x Plateau
2x Savannah
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Forest

I think this list will literally break the format IN HALF!!!!!!!! COUNTERBALANCE ZOO!!!!! ROARRRRRRR!!!!!

But seriously, Hell's Thunder? I really want a creature to fill that spot, and I think the best option currently is Jotun Grunt. Well, run 1x Grunt. The other open spot can be 1x Path to Exhile/Chain Lightning. That is what I will be testing out. Until there is a better creature than Isamaru I will keep running it. If only Skyshroud Elite was better! Other notable creatures are Albino Troll and Achridian but, echo costs are not so hot in a deck like this, but I do like the regeneration of the Troll.

[Guevera59]

How about a singleton Duergar Hedge-Mage? Seems rather tech/awful/awesome? Any takers?

[Mordel]

So, I encountered a domain zoo deck that rand swiftblades AND viashino slaughtermasters...it was extremely scary. I pretty much won by luck alone, otherwise the game would have been over pretty fast.

Has the idea of domain zoo with switfblades and slaughtermasters already been dismissed because it is too vulnerable to spot removal-heavy decks?

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

So, I encountered a domain zoo deck that rand swiftblades AND viashino slaughtermasters...it was extremely scary. I pretty much won by luck alone, otherwise the game would have been over pretty fast.

Has the idea of domain zoo with switfblades and slaughtermasters already been dismissed because it is too vulnerable to spot removal-heavy decks?

Domain Zoo is probably one of the most powerful versions. But the fact that a SINGLE Wasteland can fuck your day up, makes it unplayable.

[spider900]

Domain Zoo is probably one of the most powerful versions. But the fact that a SINGLE Wasteland can fuck your day up, makes it unplayable.

That's not true. We have a regular Legacy tournament and we have 25+ players most of the time. As many different players appear from event to event, many different decks are played. I took DomainZoo to that tourney for the fifth time in a row. I went Top 4 four times, placing 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 3rd again last week. For reverence, here's the list. A friend of mine has also been successful with it several times:

4 Dark Confidant
3 Jötun Grunt
4 Kird Ape
2 Skyshroud Elite
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Wild Nacatl

3 Gaea's Might
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
4 Tribal Flames

3 Vindicate

1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Taiga
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

I never had real problems with wastelands, as 20 lands are just enough be able to have access to two mana under Wasteland without getting flooded when you don't face Wasteland. Any thoughts on that list? I'm not quite sure, but Hooligan might become Shusher or something else, he's mostly 2/1 for 2 Mana, which isn't acceptable. He destroyed me a Jitte last tourney thou.

[Lcpdenijs]

Domain Zoo is very strong, but we are discussing RGW Zoo here.
(as Captain Hammer pointed out to me very wisely earlier in this thread when I came up with my Domain Zoo list :laugh: )

When I played Domain Zoo somehow I seemed to lack power and sometimes indeed had troubles with the mana. With just 3 colors this problem is very less existent.

[umbowta]

Adding lands and cutting threats makes me cry a little inside... So fuck that. I mean i tested him before and he was "ok".

I might just break down and try burn or something. Idk i make so many tweaks to my deck...

But yeah good call though on the edits. Something my friend mentioned to me yesterday for the sideboard was NullRod, at least in metagame, it PWNs. Everyone wins through CounterTop and Shackles and EE. It shuts off so much stuff. It hurts Jitte and Scroll, but Jitte is just a win more card, and they would both be sided out of course.

Thoughts?I'm glad you feel that way. More ROAR less bore.

I too was thinking about Null Rod. Top, Shackles, and EE are huge problems that Null Rod tackles well. It also stops Chrome Mox, LED, and Lotus Petal, not to mention the fact that it makes Affinity cry. It merits testing for sure.

I've also been thinking more and more about River Boa. Although it seems weak, the fact that every single DTB right now lets Boa go for a swim seems pretty good. And it kinda regenerates when EE or Deed pops.

[sephorusFR]

Back from testing Cliffrunner ... well, it's kinda plyaable but even with a W/R permanent ont he table,the effect is marginal. Trample definitevely lacks... But on the contrary to what I thought, his small body is not problematic. So back to thoctar

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I've also been thinking more and more about River Boa. Although it seems weak, the fact that every single DTB right now lets Boa go for a swim seems pretty good. And it kinda regenerates when EE or Deed pops.

Seriously like if i ran River Boa, i would probably run some sort of pump like Rancor, even though i've advocated against it this entire thread. They just can't deal with a 4/2 riverwalking manchild(Swords is a given of course).

He just seems like he would be a silver bullet against most of the DTB decks. Running him as a two of doesn't seem that bad. And idk about most of the other Zoo players, but i tend to get about 3-4 mana each game, leaving me plenty to regenerate with.

[umbowta]

Seriously like if i ran River Boa, i would probably run some sort of pump like Rancor, even though i've advocated against it this entire thread. They just can't deal with a 4/2 riverwalking manchild(Swords is a given of course).

He just seems like he would be a silver bullet against most of the DTB decks. Running him as a two of doesn't seem that bad. And idk about most of the other Zoo players, but i tend to get about 3-4 mana each game, leaving me plenty to regenerate with.
That's funny because I've loved Rancor and now I'm thinking its inclusion is unnecessary. You don't need to go crazy or anything, you just need to give yourself a better chance of stealing a match on the draw. River Boa would be replacing 2 Goblin Legionaires and maybe 1 Isamaru. Just by doing that you're better against the most prevalent decks in the current meta. I know boa isn't so hot against Goblins, Survival, Dragon Stompy, or AnT. So you need to side them out...so what...you'd be taking out legionaire and Isamaru in those cases anyway.

I'm almost sure the following is a better plan in the current environment:


4x Kird Ape
4x Wild Nacatl
2x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Watchwolf
3x River Boa
2x Woolly Thoctar
4x Swords to PlowShares
4x Lightning Helix
4x Lighting Bolt
2x Cursed Scroll
2x Jitte


Or maybe I'll just go nutty and do this:

4x Kird Ape
4x Wild Nacatl
2x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Kavu Predator
4x Silhana Ledgewalker
2x Wooly Thoctar
4x Invigorate
4x Might of old Krosa
4x Berserk
3x Double Cleave

Turn 2, swing with Nacatl=> Invigorate, Might, Berserk!=> ROOOOOOOAAARR!

[Frank The Tank]

I had a guy online while playing MWS say that when he swords my wolf with the rancor on him that the rancor was removed from the game also because of the old wording of StP.

Any truth to this?

[n00bas4urus_r3x]

I had a guy online while playing MWS say that when he swords my wolf with the rancor on him that the rancor was removed from the game also because of the old wording of StP.

Any truth to this?


When Rancor is put into a graveyard from play, return Rancor to its owner's hand.

No truths here. It only matters if Rancor goes from graveyard to play, where the creature goes is irrelevant.

[Frank The Tank]

Thought so but he was trying to tell me of some old wording on swords that removed the enchantment along with the creature from the game. (shrug)

[umbowta]

I thought this was an interesting conversation that deserves a look-see by the folks who have been developing Zoo here, specifically with regard to the underlined portion of Fossil4182's reply.

I am going to GP Chicago and from what I heard if you want a good chance of winning you either have to play blue or combo but lately I have been playing, and loving, my WGR Zoo deck and was thinking of bringing that instead.

Would I be better off playing my Stiflenaught, or some other thresh, landstill, etc variant or do you think a pure aggro deck like WGR Zoo would have a chance.

Play what you're most comfortable with. That helps your odds.

^^I agree^^

I think some of the slower control decks like Landstill/ITF have the best odds going into the GP, or maybe some form of ANT will have a good showing, or even Natural Order :-), but I would still play UGw thresh if I were going because I've played it the most.

If you read any articles that would prep you for large events, they will say that even if certain decks are going to have better match ups, you need to play with what you're the most comfortable with.

Additionally, its a lot easier and a much better idea to make adjustments to your deck so that it will have a better meta game match ups rather than try and pick up a new deck with this much time left.

As to a WGR Aggro deck, if you want to play it post it in the new and developmental decks forum and explain that you'd like to take it to Chicago and ask for any changes that would improve some of your match ups. I would also look at the Decks to Beat Forum and figure out what you're strategy would be. Specifically, I would have thought about strategies for Merfolk, Threshold, Landstill variants, Dreadstill, Affinity, other aggro decks (Specifically Elves Combo, Ichorid and Goblins) and Combo.

This is the exact reason as to why I'd be looking to River Boa right now. Against Merfolk, Threshold, Landstill variants, are Dreadstill, which are all DTBs and will probably account for a sum total of 40-50% of any given competitive meta at the moment, the strategy is to squeeze in as much early damage as possible with agressively costed critters and then find a way to get the last points through. River Boa, Lightning and Cursed Scroll are real nice ways to get there.

Affinity, Ichorid, and Goblins are all pretty good matches for Zoo, at least I'm happy to see them on the other side of the table anyway. The strategy is clearly use lightning and StP to remove their more problematic crittters, make them chump with the remainder, race, and win the race. You might have to bolt one of your own guys to remove Bridges against Ichorid while also keeping them off 3 guys for Dread Return. You really haven't given up much to these decks in terms of percentages, especially when River Boa comes out for Ancient Grudge, yard hate/Pyroclasm, and Pyroclasm respectively.

Combo, specifically AnT, TES, Belcher are known to be very bad for Aggro. They just tend not to care what you do, whether it's Legionaire or Boa coming down, they ignore you. Thankfully, the numbers of Combo decks are down due to the overwhelming presence of Control and Aggro Control. I'd expect to see combo maybe 1 in 10 matches in the current envioronment. In any case, Zoo needs a rediculous amount of sideboarding to even have a chance against combo. The strategy here, unfortunately, has to be one of stubborness. The Zoo pilot must keep his wits about him and look for every opportunity to capitalize. Maximize damgage per mana, play mind games if you can, and for goodness sake, use the Force, Luke, use the Force. When you side board, stick all 15 cards in your deck and then pull out the chaff so they can't guess whether you have Chant, Teeg, Needle, Volcanics and Stifle, Null Rod, etc, etc, or whether you're just planning to use the Force. Don't just give them the bye they think you are. Make them work for it and hope for their epic fail.

Don't be a Lemming, Frank. Get a gun, shoot the damn things, throw them off the cliff, and spit on their floating carcasses.

[Frank The Tank]

With all the blue running around in legacy would Choke be a good inclusion in the sideboard?

[Captain Hammer]

I think so. I LOVE Choke in any deck that can run it. It hits a big chunk of the format. Although sometimes I wonder if Tsunami is better.

[Frank The Tank]

Did people ever discuss putting in O Rings for Chalaces etc?

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Tsunami sucks against blue. Choke is just better. Sure they can EE it away and "kinda" play around it, but it's just better. It hits them out of nowhere. It makes them slow play. While as Tsunami is just like, "Ok i'll rebuild bc i'm running cantrip.deck and i'm running top as well."

Oblivion Ring is a cure all. But the three mana is never seen in some games with Zoo. I've had at least half my games with the deck stuck on two mana just drawing gas winning.

So in my opinion, it's ok.

[bowvamp]

What about these:
Sirocco
Sun Droplet (works better in pox probably)
Active Volcano
?
I'll explain them in more depth here:
Sirocco is common in burn sideboards vs. blue, but I like volcano better because it counteracts most blue decks best spells AND returns their lands to boot! Sun Droplet is a gem I found while playing pox. It helps vs. decks who do less than 2 damage a turn as a way of winning, have a slow clock in general, or have threats that take a couple turns to kill yet can be disrupted. It might not be good in aggro because that is a completely different strategy, but imho it warrants a try in anything and everything.

[Frank The Tank]

Why would you ever use Active volcano or anything else for that matter over red elemental blast and pyroblast? (boggle)

[Viscosity]

Did people ever discuss putting in O Rings for Chalaces etc?

No - Grip is superior.

[Viscosity]

you know, this deck has been testing extremely well on MWS. It does so poorly in my local meta though. One issue I have been encountering is that I often get them within burn range before my creatures start to get shut out by control or larger threats.

The life gain from Swords has been giving me issues. Many times, I would be able to burn an opponent down if not for the 4 life they gained off swords (on goyf normally). I'm not a fan of path to exile, especially in the first 3 turns of the game, but I may do some testing with it.

I just wish there was a solution to goyf that didn't give my opponent life.... But also didn't give them such tempo gain like path. IMO: the life gain is not as serious as the card disadvantage of path, but I want a better answer than swords! That is probably asking way too much. But I am liking only using 3 swords. A chain can kill an early goyf. And swords is dead in the creature-less matches.

I have also moved to a build with river boa and again back to 4x kird ape. I'm also still in the FoD fan club. They are soo good. They add a lot of consistency. If your hand is mana flooded, then you normally lose, but FoD makes it work. If you are tight for mana, they are still a threat, and most opponents try to quickly remove them.

I took out rancor for jitte because of the addition of Boa. Ape is good, but not great vs thresh. The addition of Boa gives a better solution to thresh, and allows more flexibility in creature choices. This is why I went back to 4x Ape. Rancor was mostly in the deck to make my threats overwhelm my opponents mongoose and goyf, etc. But if I'm swinging in with an unblockable, I'd rather it have a jitte on it, since that will overwhelm their creatures even more so. Plus it is a good answer to the random Burn.deck, which can win BTW (flamebreak!). With helix and jitte in the deck, Burn becomes a very comfortable match.

I do not agree with the exclusion of Chain Lightning. I think this deck needs to have a decent amount of burn. And the sorcery pumps goyf. It is often a 4dmg spell due to the additional goyf power.


4x Nac
4x Kid Ape
4x FoD
4x Tarmo
4x boa
2x Watchwolf
2x Thoctar

4x Bolt
4x Chain
4x Helix
3x Swords
2x Jitte

19 Land

I took out rancor for jitte because of the addition of Boa. Rancor was mostly in the deck to make my threats overwhelm my opponents mongoose and goyf, etc. But if I'm swinging in with an unblockable, I'd rather it have a jitte on it, since that will overwhelm their creatures even more so. Plus it is a good answer to the random Burn.deck, which can win BTW (flamebreak!). With helix and jitte in the deck, Burn becomes a very comfortable match.

Two other comments about boa. The regeneration is very significant; Jitte + boa is just scary. I also like that it makes for easy sideboard choices; I often pull boa in the non-blue matches.

[umbowta]

One issue I have been encountering is that I often get them within burn range before my creatures start to get shut out by control or larger threats.

The life gain from Swords has been giving me issues. Many times, I would be able to burn an opponent down if not for the 4 life they gained off swords (on goyf normally). I'm not a fan of path to exile, especially in the first 3 turns of the game, but I may do some testing with it.

I just wish there was a solution to goyf that didn't give my opponent life....

4x Nac
4x Kid Ape
4x FoD
4x Tarmo
4x boa
2x Watchwolf
2x Thoctar

4x Bolt
4x Chain
4x Helix
3x Reprisal
2x Jitte

19 Land

Try it that way then. Reprisal is AMAZING in the current environment most of the time, though it is an additional liability against Goblins, Ichorid...anything not running goyf. 19 land is a liability too.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@umbowta: I never really knew that card existed. It's actually really good. All anyone ever runs is Naught, Goyf, and Stalker, so i believe it's a good call.

But yeah Boa is the new tech, the blue playing kids in Chicago won't see it coming :cool:

[Valtrix]

Eh...I feel that 3cc is way too expensive to make up for the cycling. See, in any situation where reprisal wouldn't help you, I think that you actually shouldn't need to worry too much about what you're playing against. Why? Because if their creatures don't have >= 4 attack, then it's pretty likely that you're burn can kill the creatures and/or your creatures can outclass theirs. (Plus, one card is unlikely to make the difference that match anyway.) If instead it's combo, then you really can't waste 2 mana cycling a card anyway. Against CB, well, you're probably not going to win if they have it up anyway, so stalling them is useless, and if you have a way to deal with CB and win, then the 2cc of reprisal wouldn't matter.

However, in a situation where you need to kill a creature with >=4 power, then the lower casting cost is huge. That will definitely save you more games.

That said, I'm unsure if reprisal is the right card to include or not. I honestly haven't had enough testing to say what the best removal should be.

[Frank The Tank]

Ok i have been testing alot and have come across quite a bit of landstill. When they drop a landstill is it better to just burn (cast) right though it or save up a bunch of critters/burn and go apeshit later on?

[HdH_Cthulhu]

It depends on ther lifepoints.

In the early game dont care about standstill and give them the 3 cards.

Whene they have stabilized and are in range you could wait a couple of turns and then unload all of your instant burn eot then the rest in your main phase.

But try the latter only whene you have already lots of burn in your hand and you are sure you could finish them off.
Most of the time it is just better to give theme the 3 cards, because waiting a lot of turns isnt a good idea, and sooner or later you have to break it anyways.

[Viscosity]

Ok i have been testing alot and have come across quite a bit of landstill. When they drop a landstill is it better to just burn (cast) right though it or save up a bunch of critters/burn and go apeshit later on?

Early Game: it really depends on how much land is in your hand. If you are mana flooded, you should welcome a standstill and just drop lands while their hand fills up and they have to discard. then bolt them during their cleanup step.

If you are low on lands, you sorta have to ignore it. Also, if they have top, you have to ignore it. Just play through it immediately while they are tapped.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Woolly Thoctar just isn't performing well for me. He just seems lackluster. I either don't have all three colors to cast him, or i don't want to because i have better stuff.

I'm thinking about moving BTS to his spot as a two of. Seems good in a format dominated by fetches and SDT

[JiffyWartbustle]

This is probably old tricks for most people here, but it's pretty new for me and I've been using it to relatively good success lately:

Kavu Predator (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/132.html) followed by Reverent Silence (http://magiccards.info/ne/en/111.html). The Predator ensures that your opponent's removal will be aimed at it, instead of Goyf or Nacatl, due to it's synergy with your own StP and the inherent trample. Reverant Silence doesn't reduce the tempo of the deck, clears Counterbalance and then either eats a hard counter or puts them on a very short clock. Plus it has the bonus of removing the ubiquitious CB, always a perk, if it goes off!

I play in a pretty homebrew meta, but CB(+SDT) has been increasingly popular. The Predator's synergy with 8/10 cards in my deck, specifically answers to problems I'm dealing with anyway, is working. I don't always side Reverent Silence out if not playing against chants because a lot of decks don't have easy answers to a second turn 8/8 trampler. Obviously the big drawback to the Predator is it's a pretty lacklustre 2/2 for 2 relying on other cards to grow and Reverent Silence can easily be a dead card depending upon the MU. Otherwise, it's a 2 for 1 vs removal when using Reverent just to buff the Predator, which always sucks for card advantage.

EDIT Someone mentioned Invigorate (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/254.html) a page ago on the thread, possibly jokingly(?), but it has surprisingly good synergy here for the same reasons as Reverent Silence and, unlike RS, it would never be a dead card since it would always at least be a buff for your beaters at no cost to tempo. IF you happen to get it off on a Predator then you'd swing for 9 trample and end up with a 5/5 afterwards. In terms of mana/tempo, that's right up there with Goyf or Tombstalker. Big beats for 2 mana.

[Valtrix]

So, with the prevelance of giant creatures (goyf, stalker, dreadnaught), I've really been thinking that zoo means more answers to them. Mostly goyf, since you're going to play against him a lot, and he can really nullify a lot of your creatures. Personally, I don't think that running path completely over swords is the right choice, but I really do think that zoo could benefit from running more copies. Although I haven't really gotten time to test anything, I've played a little bit with a configuration running 3 swords and 3 path, which I think is really good. At the least I think 4 swords and 2 path would be strong as well. That extra 2 swords effects can make a huge difference I think.

Sorry that I don't have a lot of content right, but thoughts on running more?

[Pulp_Fiction]

Awesome new creature to look into:
Quasili Pridemage
GW
2/2
Exalted
1- Sacrifice to destroy target artifact or enchantment.

Could be really good!

[Patrunkenphat7]

hey everybody - im new to this site, so here's my list (post-alara reborn):

4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Qasali Pridemage

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Magma Jet
4 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
2 Mountain
2 Wasteland

SB
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Pyroclasm
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip

i am quite confident about this list. i noticed some of the cards being discussed in this thread are rather inefficient, namely thoctar, watchwolf, and rancor. i think the people playing watchwolf will certainly want to switch to qasali pridemage when ARB comes out.

also, there is absolutely no excuse for not playing price of progress in this deck

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

hey everybody - im new to this site, so here's my list (post-alara reborn):

4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Qasali Pridemage

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Magma Jet
4 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
2 Mountain
2 Wasteland

SB
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Pyroclasm
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip

i am quite confident about this list. i noticed some of the cards being discussed in this thread are rather inefficient, namely thoctar, watchwolf, and rancor. i think the people playing watchwolf will certainly want to switch to qasali pridemage when ARB comes out.

also, there is absolutely no excuse for not playing price of progress in this deck

A 2 of Wasteland? Wtf? Seems not good or consistent. Also, whynot run Windswept Heath instead of the Bloodstained Mire, it gives you access to the basics you need for Kird Ape and Nacatyl, basics are good.

I agree with the switch from Watchwolf to Qasali Pridemage. I love Watchwolf though, so i'll prolly but the Pridemage in my two open spots or run a 3/3 split of him and the wolf.

[Patrunkenphat7]

A 2 of Wasteland? Wtf? Seems not good or consistent. Also, whynot run Windswept Heath instead of the Bloodstained Mire, it gives you access to the basics you need for Kird Ape and Nacatyl, basics are good.

I agree with the switch from Watchwolf to Qasali Pridemage. I love Watchwolf though, so i'll prolly but the Pridemage in my two open spots or run a 3/3 split of him and the wolf.

the 2-of wasteland is awesome, i dont see how that doesnt seem good. you want to see either price of progress or wasteland in a game, but not more than one wasteland. any more wasteland would hurt the consistancy with price of progress or getting your colored mana early, but seeing one in a game is really, really good when your max. mana cost is 2.

now about the basics, forests and plains are actually quite bad and slow for my deck. they might not be bad for some of you guys' lists, but i play the most efficient burn and creatures possible. this deck can run easily off basic mountains if it needs to. windswept heath cannot search for basic mountains, while the mire can search for any land in my deck (minus the wastelands of course). being able to use all your open mana before your next turn is important, and there would be many times when you wouldnt be able to do that with a basic forest, and especially with a basic plains. if they're spending their time wastelanding your land early, you will win. i can cast 18 spells in my deck with 1 mountain.

concerning watchwolf, its just not as good as so many of the other options out there. try playing more burn like rift bolt which nicely dodges counterbalance. i feel like creatures like watchwolf and river boa are way too slow and take away the whole point of this deck: crushing your opponent before they can even set anything up.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

the 2-of wasteland is awesome, i dont see how that doesnt seem good. you want to see either price of progress or wasteland in a game, but not more than one wasteland. any more wasteland would hurt the consistancy with price of progress or getting your colored mana early, but seeing one in a game is really, really good when your max. mana cost is 2.

now about the basics, forests and plains are actually quite bad and slow for my deck. they might not be bad for some of you guys' lists, but i play the most efficient burn and creatures possible. this deck can run easily off basic mountains if it needs to. windswept heath cannot search for basic mountains, while the mire can search for any land in my deck (minus the wastelands of course). being able to use all your open mana before your next turn is important, and there would be many times when you wouldnt be able to do that with a basic forest, and especially with a basic plains. if they're spending their time wastelanding your land early, you will win. i can cast 18 spells in my deck with 1 mountain.

concerning watchwolf, its just not as good as so many of the other options out there. try playing more burn like rift bolt which nicely dodges counterbalance. i feel like creatures like watchwolf and river boa are way too slow and take away the whole point of this deck: crushing your opponent before they can even set anything up.

Whynot just post this in the GoyfSligh thread? Your list would be more suited over there.

[keys]

4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Qasali Pridemage

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Magma Jet
4 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast

2 Wasteland
....


I like this streamlined list, though I'm a little skeptical of the 2-of Wasteland as well. Seems better as a third Lavamancer, third Mountain.

Also, is Rift Bolt really better than Lightning helix in this deck? A 2/2 split would give you an even balance of 1 and 2cc burn.


Whynot just post this in the GoyfSligh thread? Your list would be more suited over there.
Naya Burn, GoyfSligh, R/G/W Zoo... the lines are blurring.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Naya Burn, GoyfSligh, R/G/W Zoo... the lines are blurring.

His list runs Fireblast, Magma Jet, PoP, and Lavamancer. Come on... cute cards like that belong in GoyfSligh.

[Patrunkenphat7]

His list runs Fireblast, Magma Jet, PoP, and Lavamancer. Come on... cute cards like that belong in GoyfSligh.

haha i'd say fireblast and PoP are more 'sexy' than 'cute'. and i like to think of my list in this camp, considering goyfsligh was originally intended to be G/R

concerning 1 mountain and 1 lavamancer for the 2 wasteland: if i were to replace them that's certainly what i would do. i still think the wastelands are just too good in certain situations and never really hurt my deck all that much. i guess its just personal taste

edit: forgot to mention helix: helix is fodder for so much counter-nonsense, i prefer rift bolt. the extra mana and the weakness to spell snare and counterbalance makes the 3 life gain not worth it

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@Patrunkenphat7: I don't see why you don't like Lightning Helix. It's amazing in the "mirror", it helps you outrace GoyfSligh, and on a few occasions, it's won me a game against Tendrils combo. It's instant speed too! I would take the Helix over Rift Bolt just because of that.

[Patrunkenphat7]

@Patrunkenphat7: I don't see why you don't like Lightning Helix. It's amazing in the "mirror", it helps you outrace GoyfSligh, and on a few occasions, it's won me a game against Tendrils combo. It's instant speed too! I would take the Helix over Rift Bolt just because of that.

dont get me wrong, i do like it. it depends on what you think you're gonna go up against. if you think you're gonna play tons of goyfsligh and burn, then yeah i'd play helix over rift bolt. but i built my deck for a larger legacy tournament where i expect every deck and its mother to be running counterbalance. i also like having a few more 1-drops than 2-drops.
i may considering switching to 2 rift/2 helix, i just gotta do some more testing.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I top 4ed a 32 person tourney with Zoo tonight. Fought my way through waves of spells to the top.

My list:
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Kird Ape
4x Wild Nactal
4x Watchwolf
3x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
2x Chain Lightning (Yeah i know..)
2x Woolly Thoctar
4x Swords to PlowShares
4x Lightning Helix
4x Lighting Bolt
2x Cursed Scroll
2x Jitte

4x Wooded Foothills
4x Windswept Heath
3x Taiga
3x Plateau
3x Savannah
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Forest

Sideboard

4x Pithing Needle
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Vexing Shusher
3x Ancient Grudge
2x Gaddock Teeg
1x Null Rod


Round one i get the bye! Free wins FTW!

Round two i get paired up against counter slivers. Game one i just outrace him, game two he has countermagic for everything, and game three he gets stuck on a bayou and Aether Vial, and has no mana for daze.

Round three i get paired up against Turbo Land. I have to play this kid every week and every week he get Shackles and beats me.. same goes for this week, after boarding in 11 cards.

Round four i play merfolk, I beat him 2-0 by just killing his lords and keeping no creatures on the field when he has Jitte.

Draw to top 8.

Round one of top eight i play Goyf Sligh, and Zoo is just better. My damage sources stick around, and i fetched around PoP. Lightning Helix seals the deal.



I will note that Watchwolf is being replaced by Quasali Pridemage, he is the card Zoo has been begging for for a while. A maindeck, preboard answer to gay shit like Shackles, Counterbalance, etc.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I don't know, Watchwolf is damn good. You will certainly be cutting the Chain Lightnings (those 2 open slots .... finally get filled!!!!!) and then probably cut 1 Isamaru and 1x Thoctar. Something like that, I have been getting more and more weary of Thoctars lately, I seem to draw my 2x in multiples ...

Also, congrats on wrecking the noobs!!!!

[B is for Big Job]

chain is pretty good. I know its slow but gives you a bolt damage quality that can finish off the game or take something out, also pumps goyf if your opponent hasnt played a sorcery yet

Also a consideration, anyone thought of adding black to the deck? The additions would be amazing. access to terminate, thoughtsieze and therapy for the combo match ups or control. Then theres doran whick is just a bomb and helps with the goyf battles. Wed get to have our own tombstalkers. Also access to vindicate and/or maelstrom pulse.

With black comes better removal, more/ better creatures and access to more cards in the board for at what cost? being vulnerable to waste lock, buts thats a given.

[nix]

I will note that Watchwolf is being replaced by Quasali Pridemage, he is the card Zoo has been begging for for a while. A maindeck, preboard answer to gay shit like Shackles, Counterbalance, etc.

what is quasali pridemage?
also, why do you think those cards are gay?

[Arctic_Slicer]

what is quasali pridemage?
also, why do you think those cards are gay?

It's a card in Alara Reborn. It's 2/2 exalted guy for GW with 1: sac destroy target artifact and enchantment; he's very much like Watchwolf but with a cool ability. It's a creature based answer to troublesome artifacts and enchantments that is also cheaper than Duergar Hedge-Mage; a great card indeed.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@nix: I think and know those cards are gay, because i have to play against them with my favorite deck every week, and they made my favorite deck lose. Like i said in my tourney report, i lose to Shackles and the same kid playing Shackles every week, even when i board in 11 cards.

@Pulp Fiction: Yeah Chain is coming out, i was debating what to use up until my first round, so i just threw em in. I didn't cast em the entire tourney, and when i could have, my GoyfSligh opponent had like 4 red sources out and was ahead in life total. I like Watchwolf, but i hate that his mana cost. I know this next statement doesn't make sense, but i just don't want more GWcc creatures in the deck ya know?

And i agree on Thoctar. He could just as well be another 2 drop or something. I never want to cast him, and when i do i've already won anyway. I'd rather not be tapping out or playing 2 creatures instead of one.

[Valtrix]

Anyway, somewhat of a shameless plug, but I have a zoo list that I've worked on that I'd like feedback on at http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13524.

I didn't post it here though since it's so much different and doesn't even follow the colors very much anymore, so I didn't want to clutter up this thread.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@Valtrix: How is that post relevant at all!? Sorry if i'm being a dick, but just randomly posting some deck in the middle of a decent thread discussion, just doesn't make sense.

Reminds me of some sort of advertising thing.

[Valtrix]

Because it uses a lot of things people have occasionally brought up in the past. Just because it's not straight RGW doesn't mean that it doesn't have similar qualities to it. I don't see the point of attacking my post when you want to not have irrelevant posts "in the middle of a decent thread". The whole point was to not waste a lot of space here because I know the deck is quite a bit different, which is why I knew better not to start a discussion here. However, I think it has a lot of ideas that still apply to this style of deck, and since I developed it from this style of deck I wanted opinions from people who might have been playing these style decks for longer.

I could get into a debate more, but I'd prefer to just leave it at that. If you really want to discuss why or why it shouldn't have been posted here, then make a post in my thread instead.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Rabble Rabble Rabble.

Cascade creature in teh RGW Zoo? Seems terrible-ish.

Let's talk :cool:

[Patrunkenphat7]

so i was reading this thread and i strongly disagree with cursed scroll. grim lavamancer is strictly better; its cursed scroll that can swing and has a more effective ability.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@Patrunkenphat7: "R/G/W Zoo is a strange aggro deck, it is fast in the early game, but because the creatures are so effective it also has pretty good mid-late game! The card is just too valuable not to play, when the deck runs out of gas it is very nice to have a permanent 2 damage source that can’t be burned away or StPed! But everyone dismisses it based on goldfish speed, and it should absolutely be included in the deck."

Quote from the beginning of the Primer. I'll also note, a permanent 2 damage source that can’t be burned away or StPed.

[Pulp_Fiction]

LOL, this has been covered so many times. Play Cursed Scroll against real opponents then pass judgment. Regarding the newer Zoo list with Pridemage, I this is what I am thinking but with no testing as of yet:

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Kird Ape
4x Wild Nactal
4x Watchwolf
4x Qasali Pridemage
2x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
1x Woolly Thoctar
4x Swords to PlowShares
4x Lightning Helix
4x Lighting Bolt
2x Cursed Scroll
2x Jitte

4x Wooded Foothills
4x Windswept Heath
3x Taiga
3x Plateau
3x Savannah
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Forest

Now I love the Pridemage already and am thinking about how good he is against like 85% of the format, but he just sucks against Goblins and Merfolk. Perhaps Pyroclams will be needed to go back into the board but I'm not totally sure on that. I also don't think you would want to run any less than 4 since it answers everything that sucks for this deck and gives the deck a way to disrupt combo mainboard (killing LEDs and shit). Overall its a solid bear that kills Shackles, Chalice, and Deed .... pretty damn good!

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

LOL, this has been covered so many times. Play Cursed Scroll against real opponents then pass judgment.
Amen.

But yeah the list looks good. I still have some concerns with GW even though it doesn't make sense due to our good mana base. Whatever though it'll get tested no worries. And this guy is common so foil playset here i come :cool:

Also to anyone that doesn't know, NullRod Sideboard is the new tech. Me and my buddy have been running it for a few weeks, and it's amazing.

[Patrunkenphat7]

i mean considering there were no zoo decks running cursed scroll in the top 132 players at Grand Prix Chicago... and a grim lavamancer zoo deck placed 8th... that has to say something about 'real opponents'

[Pulp_Fiction]

Yes, very good post Pat, insightful and contributes nothing to the thread. Welcome to my ignore list!

The new cascade creature thing seems pretty terrible. If you are going to spend 4 mana on a creature something like: Rumbling Slum, Blastoderm, Spearbreaker Behemoth, and possibly even Giant Solifuge (fuck Shackles) just seem better. Whole point of Zoo is to have better creatures than your opponent. I was skeptical of the new Pridemage cause he blocks like a shitty 2/2 for 2 mana but his two abilities are sooooooo useful that it doesn't matter! But a 4 mana 3/2 haster with cascade .... eh its ok but certainly not right for the deck.

And adding on to Null Rod as some super hot SB cards .... YES! Fucks up Affinity big time and just hoses combo. Only downside is that it can be Duressed out of your hand, but thats also why Teeg is in the board!

[FoulQ]

What is so wrong with what Pat said, except for the little stab at the end? I haven't checked it, but if he's right, that is the data: zero zoo decks in the top 132 played cursed scroll. You can use the same knowledge for other decks like I have for goblins, seeing that Rg goblins was the most popular in day 2 by a large margin, and that has influenced my build. I don't think it's fair to just dismiss pat, even though cursed scroll has been talked about extensively. A huge event like GP Chicago is a good indicator of how good certain cards are in an unknown/balanced/however-you-wanna-look-at-it metagame. We don't want to become inbred on the source. We've all seen how the source missed the mark on black disruption decks as two made the top eight. Cursed Scroll work for you? Fine. But don't just dismiss people based on your experience and the previous pages of the thread, especially when they have the data to back it up.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I think making statements about what cards were used the Grand Prix are just too broad though. Just because some guy top 8ed with it doesn't make it good ya know? Too many go into determining stuff like that. For all you know, the players with Cursed Scroll coulda gotten Combo MUs or like got mana screwed the entire day. It's just too broad. But enough with the topic, on to something else.

Null Rod is just too good. It stops SDT, Shackles, Vial, etc. It's just amazing hands down. I just think this deck got a super boost with the Pridemage tbh, and based on some recent testing it's not just a hype. It's just awesome.

[Patrunkenphat7]

man i really wish you guys wouldnt keep attacking me, i was a little sarcastic just to defend myself when i was attacked for what i said before.

i do think grim lavamancer is legitimate to discuss, ive been testing him a lot and hes really good. i will also say that null rod seems quite good, i think ill try it out. note that it does hurt you if you're playing cursed scroll over grim lavamancer though.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

man i really wish you guys wouldnt keep attacking me, i was a little sarcastic just to defend myself when i was attacked for what i said before.

i do think grim lavamancer is legitimate to discuss, ive been testing him a lot and hes really good. i will also say that null rod seems quite good, i think ill try it out. note that it does hurt you if you're playing cursed scroll over grim lavamancer though.

Please... i'll stop disagreeing with you... if you just use proper capitalization...

[Pulp_Fiction]

I went ahead and tried out an updated list with Pridemage and that thing is AMAZING! He doesn't really hurt the speed very much, swinging for 5 on turn 3 is not bad at all after swinging for 4 on turn 2! This happens quite regularly. Just to be defiant about the Cursed Scroll debate I cut the final Thoctar (because I didn't like just 1) and put in a third Cursed Scroll .... and really liked it!!! Most matchups I truly want to draw Scroll in, it is especially useful against anything blue! Only matchups where it just sucks is the combo match. Scroll reliably kills every creature in both Goblins and Merfolk by itself! But this has already been discussed so I'm done debating how good Cursed Scroll is.

Another massive prop to the Pridemage, I was considering adding Enchantment destruction to the board ..... now its not necessary! 3x Ancient Grudge it stays!! I LOVE this card!! Only concern is drawing him late game against any savage aggro deck since Zoo's creatures always outclass the opponents, you are now drawing a bear who blocks like one :( But his utility should more than make up for being a 2/2.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Please... i'll stop disagreeing with you... if you just use proper capitalization...

haha whatever man. i just wanted to discuss some magic but oh well, im out.

[Valtrix]

I think making statements about what cards were used the Grand Prix are just too broad though. Just because some guy top 8ed with it doesn't make it good ya know?

And just because people may have "bad matchups" with "good" cards doesn't make them good. I would also agree that many people in this thread respond pretty harshly.

ANyway, lavamancer really isn't that good in this deck. He doesn't actually get that much damage through, and the two cards from the graveyard + mana is actually quite a heavy price. It's both counter-productive with goyf, and you don't actually get that many cards in your graveyard usually. You might as well run jitte or more removal (see path). Plus, the 2 damage isn't that useful in today's metagame. There really aren't a lot of decks with small creatures.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I just got my playset of Quasali Pridemage tonight at midnight. And here is the list that's coming for ya.

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Kird Ape
4x Wild Nactal
3x Watchwolf
4x Qasali Pridemage
2x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
2x Woolly Thoctar
4x Swords to PlowShares
4x Lightning Helix
4x Lighting Bolt
2x Cursed Scroll
2x Jitte

4x Wooded Foothills
4x Windswept Heath
3x Taiga
3x Plateau
3x Savannah
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Forest


I'm gonna give Thoctar another chance i suppose.. Especially since i'm getting some DCI ones. If he continues to disappoint then i'll just take his ass out. But i have great confidence in this list. I hope to see how i do next week with it.

[Pulp_Fiction]

This is totally unrelated but when does the new set become legal? Since I don't play standard anymore I largely ignore the new cards :)

[goobafish]

This is totally unrelated but when does the new set become legal? Since I don't play standard anymore I largely ignore the new cards :)

Today.

[whienot]

I'm gonna give Thoctar another chance i suppose.


Mmmm, exalted Thoctar. Juicy.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Mmmm, exalted Thoctar. Juicy.

Then he'll REALLY trade with Goyf. And then you'll blow up their top in response to them finding an answer.. What a dream.. :laugh:

[whienot]

I really need to get some plateaus. This deck is getting so ballsy, it must be a blast to play.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Yeah, Zoo is getting really damn good. I have played a few games with the Pridemage and it is full of win!!! Also, I really like Scroll #3 over Thoctar. I just got tired of it cause it clogs up your hand often (Scroll uses colorless) and usually by the time it hits play you have basically won anyway.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Yeah, Zoo is getting really damn good. I have played a few games with the Pridemage and it is full of win!!! Also, I really like Scroll #3 over Thoctar. I just got tired of it cause it clogs up your hand often (Scroll uses colorless) and usually by the time it hits play you have basically won anyway.

Well if i cut Thoctar completely, then i would add Watchwolf, and then i would have one open spot. A metagame spot perhaps?

I also want to discuss cutting the Horizon Canopy for another Savannah or dual in the maindeck. I say Savannah bc we have Watchwolf and Pridemage as a full set. I'm just worried and plus Horizon Canopy has been under-performing for me.. And we're getting alot of Stax and shit now so another land wouldn't hurt.

Thoughts?

[Pulp_Fiction]

Oh yeah, Horizon Canopy is just there to help, personally I have never had problems with it but if it has been shitty, cut it. Since the deck has changed so much I would no longer replace that land with Taiga nor do I think Savannah would be the call. I think Bloodstained Mire would be the right land to replace it with currently since the Canopy's job is to thin the deck and a fetchland would be more beneficial than just a dual. You can try different configurations and see what you like (shouldn't make much of a difference) but a fetch should be best, just don't put another basic in! For reference here is what I am currently testing out and I really like it:

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Kird Ape
4x Wild Nactal
4x Watchwolf
4x Qasali Pridemage
2x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4x Swords to PlowShares
4x Lightning Helix
4x Lighting Bolt
3x Cursed Scroll
2x Jitte

4x Wooded Foothills
4x Windswept Heath
3x Taiga
3x Plateau
3x Savannah
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Forest

Sideboard

3x Pithing Needle
3x Vexing Shusher
3x Ancient Grudge
3x Gaddock Teeg
2x Null Rod
1x open slot

[jimmerz213]

Hey I may have just missed it somewhere while catching up (Im kinda tired) but has anyone tried using a couple Knight of New Alara at all? The pridemage is awesome, but I like the thought of an 8/7 thoctar pre-jitte. Or even a 5/5 watch wolf.

I may try it, just curious if any of you had.