U/g Natural Order Combo/Control

[troopatroop]

Let me begin with a rough sketch of a decklist.

4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
2 Mystical Tutor

4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Carven Caryatid
4 Wall of Blossoms

3 Hail Storm
4 Mana Leak
3 Counterspell

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Impulse

4 Tropical Island
4 Windsweapt heath
3 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
9 Island

SB:
4 Krosan Grip
4 Chill
1 Empyrial Archangel
3 Chameleon Collosus
3 Compost

Now let me say first, that the only reason I'm even brainstorming this idea right now, is to build a deck to play in a very casual environment. Showing them that you can win with less expensive cards is going to be important to me. I intend on taking Survival Elves with the combo at first, and then show them that I can win with something different too. It's not going to win the GP, but I think it's pretty effective at stopping the creature decks im expecting, with allowing me to build it for less than the cost of FOWs (If I can just borrow the Trops!). Here are some card explanations.

Nimble Mongoose X4

-With all of the cheap blue draw you're playing, you'll fill your graveyard up quickly. Shroud is huge. Plays nicely with Natural Order.

Carven Caryatid X3

-To be honest, I've just always wanted to play this card. I love cantripping walls, because in the environment I expect to be thrown into, they actually make alot of sense. They should seriously hinder my opponents gameplan, while fueling Natural Order.

Wall of Blossoms X4

-at 2cc, I'd never cut these guys. Natural order needs a good number of targets, so these guys are green creatures 11-14. That should be enough with all of your draw.

4x Brainstorm, 4x Ponder, 3x Impulse

- The most compact, deepest digging draw package I could think of. Brainstorm plays double duty in this deck by putting back Progenitus, but it is actually critical in this role. Without Survival, Brainstorm is your only out at putting Progenitus back. This means you have to hold Brainstorm sometimes. Usually you should be casting Ponder first. I debated over whether or not Careful Study was worth it over ponder. I'm going up so many cards with everything I play, the -1 CA might be negligable, and it makes drawing Progenitus a whole half less painfull. Let me know what you think about this.

3x Hail Storm

- I love this card. I expect to get many 3 for 1s with this. Instant speed pyroclasm is goods, especially when you consider the other options. You don't want a sweeper like Nev's Disk, Keg, or Oblivion Stone or something, because you like having your walls live, so Hail Storm seems like the most attractive option. Could be Propaganda?

4x Mana Leak, 3x Counterspell

- I don't own fows, so I plan on countering spells the old fashioned way. Sometimes you'll need Arbor in the early turns and will want to have a counter turn 2. More leaks make this easier to pull off with this manabase.
Counterspell would be FOW if I had it.

3x Dryad Arbor

- I don't expect much wasteland, and windsweapt heath fetches me my natural order target or Trop. What a game.


The sideboard is entirely random, and could be very different. I think that this deck might be a great choice for a casual magic setting. I may call the deck Ninja Turtles and put stickers on all the walls. Either Shredder or Splinter gets the sticker on Progenitus. Tell me what you think!

[Phoenix Ignition]

Now let me say first, that the only reason I'm even brainstorming this idea right now, is to build a deck to play in a very casual environment. Showing them that you can win with less expensive cards is going to be important to me.

Seems like a good reason to post in the Casual Forum then. Agreed. - NC

[troopatroop]

While I understand the movement to the casual forum, I hardly think that this is a casual deck, or of similar power to the other decks in the casual forum. You're still playing a very consistent turn 4-5 Natural Order, Boatloads of draw and search, and plenty of stall. I figured, since Natural Order ---> Progenitus is a relatively new happening that we'd want some more discussion in the New and Developmental for different builds. Although, this is a budget deck, so I can understand. I just don't want this thread to just die here, because I think the idea is good enough.

While playtesting Elves, it became obvious that I wanted to see Natural Order more often, or at least have some sort of draw to find it. I really wanted mystical tutor/brainstorm/ponder, but those didn't play well with Sylvan Messenger.

The challenge then became, how do I play enough green creatures to support Natural Order, while playing all the blue cards I want. Carven Caryatid and Wall of Blossoms fill this role and are strong cards in creature infested environments. They replace themselves and buy you the time you need to assemble your combo. These are my Turtles. Natural Order actually gives me a good reason to play them, which I've been dying to do.

Some things I'm unsure of and would like some insight on...

-Does Careful Study make sense here? Over Ponder? Over Impulse?
-Should Hail Storm be Propaganda?
-What can I do to improve the manabase?
-Could cards like Fact or Fiction, Garruk, or Call of the Herd fit here?
-Is there any good removal I'm missing?

Thanks!

[Shriekmaw]

This deck is so terrible, its not even funny. Outside of the combo, you only have nimble mongoose without any real removal. I don't understand why you would play walls that don't generate mana at all.

If you want a good shell for the combo, then just play a modified version of threshold with the combo in it. Wow, I just can't believe you put no thought/playtesting before you make these stupid lists up.

[troopatroop]

This deck is so terrible, its not even funny. Outside of the combo, you only have nimble mongoose without any real removal. I don't understand why you would play walls that don't generate mana at all.

If you want a good shell for the combo, then just play a modified version of threshold with the combo in it. Wow, I just can't believe you put no thought/playtesting before you make these stupid lists up.

Well, I'm not planning on playing it against anything good, so playtesting against the best decks doesn't exactly make sense. I don't play removal, you're right, because the colors I'm playing don't exactly provide it, unless you'd have me playing Psy Blast. Hail Storm is about all I could come up with. I thought I made it clear that this was for a casual meta. Obviously a thresh-esque list would be stronger, but so what?

Why am I playing walls that don't generate mana? You'd rather see Wall of Roots and Vine Trellis? Those don't cantrip me into stuff. I'm not in any rush to ramp mana either. The entire point of this deck is to actually let my opponent play some magic before he gets stomped. I want to control the beginning of the game and dig for my combo. Wall of Blossoms and Carven Caryatid do this much better.

If it wasn't me posting this, you wouldn't be attacking this with such force. I think you need to learn to keep your mouth shut.

[Shriekmaw]

I would love to post an actual good list of a control/combo deck, but I'm not going to give away any secrets just yet. If I post a top 8 with it, then I won't have a choice, but I might just keep it a secret until the GP.

[troopatroop]

I would love to post an actual good list of a control/combo deck, but I'm not going to give away any secrets just yet. If I post a top 8 with it, then I won't have a choice, but I might just keep it a secret until the GP.

Cool, I mean I'm sure theres a much better list out there. The only reason I'm playing the walls is cuz I think that they'll work here, but I'm aware that they're a pretty mediocre idea otherwise. This is really just a pet deck/ an excuse to use Carven Caryatid and Wall of Blossoms. Any thoughts on those points I made? Garruk in particular... possibly in the place of the 3xChameleon Collosus in the board for when Hail Storm has no use. Tapping out turn 4 to play him and having that two mana for a Counterspell/Leak would be hot. Kindov abandons the budget thing, but you'll actually have good blockers to protect him.

[Shriekmaw]

Cool, I mean I'm sure theres a much better list out there. The only reason I'm playing the walls is cuz I think that they'll work here, but I'm aware that they're a pretty mediocre idea otherwise. This is really just a pet deck/ an excuse to use Carven Caryatid and Wall of Blossoms. Any thoughts on those points I made? Garruk in particular... possibly in the place of the 3xChameleon Collosus in the board for when Hail Storm has no use. Tapping out turn 4 to play him and having that two mana for a Counterspell/Leak would be hot. Kindov abandons the budget thing, but you'll actually have good blockers to protect him.


I would play Pongify as a removal since you have the walls in order to play the creature you morph into a 3/3. Why not play Force of Will in the deck, it would only make sense. I would also find room for a second Progenitus, just in case you draw it and don't have brainstorm in hand.

[troopatroop]

I would play Pongify as a removal since you have the walls in order to play the creature you morph into a 3/3. Why not play Force of Will in the deck, it would only make sense. I would also find room for a second Progenitus, just in case you draw it and don't have brainstorm in hand.

If my walls are holding his creatures back in the first place, Pongify does nothing, and is an awful card. You think my ideas are stupid?

I already said I don't own Force of Wills, that I'm trying to play cheap cards, and that this is budget. After taking T.E.S. and Elf Survival to these tournaments, not pissing everyone off for playing an overpowered monstrosity is why I am building this. Also, I'd never play a second Progenitus. You have so much dig to find a Brainstorm, it's a non issue.

[Shriekmaw]

If my walls are holding his creatures back in the first place, Pongify does nothing, and is an awful card. You think my ideas are stupid?

I already said I don't own Force of Wills, that I'm trying to play cheap cards, and that this is budget. After taking T.E.S. and Elf Survival to these tournaments, not pissing everyone off for playing an overpowered monstrosity is why I am building this. Also, I'd never play a second Progenitus. You have so much dig to find a Brainstorm, it's a non issue.


Oh my bad. I guess your deck doesn't scoop to Teeg or Meddling Mage, huh? Hail Storm is not a solution. You need to play removal and by only going blue/green pongify is a good card.

I play the best decks not budget decks. Look me up sometime and I'll show you what a real deck looks like.

All of your posts in this thread have been needlessly inflammatory. Infraction issued.
-TOOL

[ELD]

I already said I don't own Force of Wills, that I'm trying to play cheap cards, and that this is budget.

Heads up, It wouldn't shock me if you could trade Natural Order straight up for a Force of Will as we get closer to the Grand Prix. After that, don't be surprised if it drops like 50% in value like cards for the ELVES! deck once people calm down about it.

[Arsenal]

@troop

Natural Order is going for $15-20 each right now, I don't see how that's budget at all.

[troopatroop]

It's budget because I already have Natural Orders and Windsweapt Heath. All the other cards are tiny, and building the entire deck past that should cost me less than 40$. If anyone actually has anything to say about the deck, I would really appreciate it.


Oh my bad. I guess your deck doesn't scoop to Teeg or Meddling Mage, huh? Hail Storm is not a solution.

Nope, the mainboard pretty much does. If they slip it through my counters I can't do much. That being said, I don't expect to see them. Repeal or Echoing Truth seem like much much better options than Pognify tho.

[Strawberry Dwarf]

Progenitus became used in Vintage Oath decks. The idea with Natural Order in Legacy is definitely worthy for testing.

IMO the blue splash is not necessary. Green offers Sylvan Library and SDT is colorless. I would go the monogreen way with elves (+ Priest of Titania), Wall of Roots, SDT and shufflers (Greenseeker). The combo i would back up with Vexing Shusher. Basically it would be the old Secret Force deck with Progenitus as main target for Natural Order.

Keep in mind the following points:
a) Global Wrath effects. Even with blue splash you will not be able to counter them because of the Natural Order's high manacost.
b) Progenitus in play isn't autowin. It can't block flyers, shadows and color-protections (Mystic Enforcer, Piledriver, Jitte-equipped knights).
c) If Progenitus become a threat in future, people will start packing hate, e.g. Ensnaring Bridge, Rootwater Thief or Jester's Cap.

[troopatroop]

NEW AND IMPROVED LIST!

4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus

3 Carven Caryatid
4 Wall of Blossoms
3 Coiling Oracle

4 Mana Leak
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Mystical Tutor
1 Echoing Truth/Wipe Away/Repeal

4 Tropical Island
4 Windsweapt heath
3 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
8 Island

SB:
4 Krosan Grip
4 Chill
1 Empyrial Archangel
3 Hail Storm
3 Compost

I cut the list to 20 lands, because while you don't want to miss your first 4 land drops, it hasn't been difficult at all with my draw package. Coiling Oracle fits the deck more than Nimble Mongoose because I'm never trying to attack, and hitting that land drop speeds me up a turn. Impulse was good but often overkill. Often times I had already found Natural Order, and it would have been much better as Daze. I added Force and Daze because they should have been in the list from the begining. Free countermagic is really the appeal of going into blue. I originally wanted to keep Daze away because I hated missing the land drop, but it's too good at protecting Natural Order and FOW. Hail Storm got cut because it wasn't pulling it's weight. Sometimes it was great, but more often then not, my walls did a good job of blocking anyways.

So that's where the deck's at now. More countermagic, Coiling Oracle, 20 Lands, and a MD Bounce spell. Let me know what you think.

[beastman]

Just keep in mind that Teeg stops repeal.