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mackaber
03-10-2009, 05:36 AM
Seeing that no one has started a thread on this yet and the dec seems to be a serious contender as two different versions have made the finals of the largest Legacy event ever:

Gabriel Nassif (built by Luis Scott Vargas)

2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Ponder
1 Krosan Grip
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
2 Trygon Predator
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Sower of Temptation
4 Dark Confidant
4 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island
4 Flooded Strand

Sideboard
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Engineered Plague
1 Energy Flux
1 Darkblast
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Perish
1 Planar Void
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Threads of Disloyalty


Andy Probasco

2 Vedalken Shackles
3 Spell Snare
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Ponder
1 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
4 Force of Will
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
3 Trinket Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Sower of Temptation
2 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
6 Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Academy Ruins

Sideboard:
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Duress
3 Firespout
2 Hydroblast
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt

I've been working on similar decs myself for the last few years and the elegance in design of both of these lists awes me. I think that these decs have enough in common that they can be grouped together for a first analysis. Some casual observations:

- Probasco's deck sacrifices power for manabase consistencey a tradeof Legacy players have been making for years now but beeing greedy has seemed to paid of for Nassif
- I'm really no fan of Trinket Mage but it seems that Probasco's list is centered around him providing a high degree of flexibility
- While you can laugh as much about Nassif's sideboard as you like it does provide a high degree of flexibility, while I'd prolly make some major changes I'd definetly stick to the Enlighted Tutor package

Let's keeep the discusion to the decs and not the randomness of Pro's playing Legacy please.

Misplayer
03-10-2009, 08:21 AM
Nassif's list looks a lot like what the 'Threshold' lists have been moving to, in the sense that some players are starting to cut Mongoose. For example, I've been running Nassif's list with the following changes as NQT (Not Quite Thresh) prior to having ever seen any of these NLU ports (and not having any familiarity with Extended):

-1 Island
-1 Underground Sea
-2 Shackles
-2 Sower
-1 Krosan Grip
-1 Top
+2 Ponder
+2 Rhox War Monk
+3 Thoughtseize
+1 Mystic Enforcer/RWM/Trygon Predator

I also run 2 Sowers out of the side. The largest difference is obviously the maindeck creature-control element and extra land to support a slightly higher curve and Shackles. I suppose Shackles fills mostly the same roll as RWM does in my deck as an aggro-stopper, and while RWM is probably better at slowing aggro Shackles is much more versatile. I've found Thoughtseize to be very powerful and sometimes game-winning but it's weak late game.

Anyway, my overall observation is that these NLU decks look a lot like what I've seen Thresh moving towards here on The Source.

lolosoon
03-10-2009, 08:46 AM
Anyway, my overall observation is that these NLU decks look a lot like what I've seen Thresh moving towards here on The Source.
QFT.

I dunno what Extended NLU looks like, but 4c 'Threshold' and Nassif's build have a lot in common. Like the last being a natural and metagamed evolution of the former.

Some 4c lists (including mine) run Grunt//RWM + Predator over the mongeese as they're least and least loved in controllish builds. Making the deck closer to some Baseruption deck.

Still, although MD Sower and Shackles make the deck way more controllish, I don't know if Nassif's list deserve a brand new thread.

I'm not fond with Shackles btw. But with the result proves otherwise.

The skill of Gabriel is also to take into account...

Charlatan
03-10-2009, 08:53 AM
What means the name of this deck?

Isn't it a baseruption?

lolosoon
03-10-2009, 09:14 AM
What means the name of this deck?
Next Level blUe


Isn't it a baseruption?
It is referenced as it on deckcheck. Still, it's a 4c Threshold//Baseruption variant IMHO.

Charlatan
03-10-2009, 09:30 AM
And which list do you guys from the source prefer?

I like much more probasco lists.
Nassif have topdecked a lot...

trinket mage is a great tutor in legacy!
One more thing, Executioner's Capsule couldn't fit well in this list?

ty

bowvamp
03-10-2009, 09:36 AM
It is baseruption. Or at least close enough. Using the wizards/extended name for it is... interesting. I mean we've all seen innovations before right? We still keep at least part of the name of what we've innovated off of.

Example:
Extended NLU ran loxodon hierarch sometimes. It's draw spell was TfK. It ran threads of disloyalty instead of Sower. Just about 6-8 creatures in every build.

Esper3k
03-10-2009, 09:43 AM
My only real issue with Nassif's version is that with that manabase, if an early Moon hits the table, you're in huge trouble since you only have 2 basic islands.

Wastelands really hurt as well...

lolosoon
03-10-2009, 10:08 AM
My only real issue with Nassif's version is that with that manabase, if an early Moon hits the table, you're in huge trouble since you only have 2 basic islands.

Wastelands really hurt as well...
Still, his Top8 pairing were vs CanadianThresh and DragonStompy and Nassif still makes it through and win the 'mirror' in final.

So, congratz to the pilot, his luck, his skills and/or his deck ?!

Misplayer
03-10-2009, 12:11 PM
My only real issue with Nassif's version is that with that manabase, if an early Moon hits the table, you're in huge trouble since you only have 2 basic islands.

Wastelands really hurt as well...

That holds true for 70% of the decks in the format. As lolosoon said, a vulnerable manabase is not a detriment to a skilled player with a powerful deck.

thefreakaccident
03-10-2009, 12:30 PM
I love this deck, as I had been working on it in secret for a while now...

My list is actually much different (I run all 5 colors for REBs and clasms in the board, and do not run sower, nor daze)... but the concepts are actually quite the same.


Some notes about the deck itself:

Shackles is a bomb!
It wins against most agro control (taking their threats to chump eachother/kill thm with)...

It is a nuisance for anything w/ creatures as well as a wincon on its' own...


I prefer running at least 2 spell snares, as they help the counter suite a lot against combo, as we are a little bit slower than threshold...


The addition of grip in the MD is a good call, as the only decks that we should fear run cards that are enchantments/artifacts anyways (survival, counterbalance, and other things).

whienot
03-10-2009, 01:48 PM
It's been great watching Probasco's build evolve from a Painter/Grind shell. He usually does own the Counterbalance mirror, but Nassif blind flipped 'like a pro.'

The only game where I beat Andy (I played Dreadstill) was when he was land screwed. I stifled fetches and he drew his 2 Academy Ruins, both games. Normally, he eats Dreadnoughts for a light snack.

The only matches where his build has a slight weakness is random aggro, which makes this a perfect GP meta deck.

mackaber
03-10-2009, 04:16 PM
He usually does own the Counterbalance mirror, but Nassif blind flipped 'like a pro.'


I'm also pretty sure that Probasco misplayed badly somewhere along the way when he had his Krosan Grip Countered during his mainphase by Nassif's CB, that shouldn't really ever happen, but I wasn't there so maybe the coverage missed something.

On issues of naming and this dec not deserving it's own thread well here's my two cents: This dec is clearly not Threshhold but one natural evolution of the archetype. Since the creator (a certain mister Vargas) is also larly responsible for creating/popularising NLU in extended and from it's funtionality this dec is much more a pure control dec I choose to stick with that name.
Also while there are quite a few similarities between this dec and baseeruption a) I think the name is retarded b) baseeruption is by definition an aggrocontrol dec and this dec is much more clearly tuned towards being a true control deck.

Also I've been thinking about replacing the Dazes in LSVs list with Spell Snares which seem to fit better but I'm not sure if they fit...

Esper3k
03-10-2009, 05:22 PM
That holds true for 70% of the decks in the format. As lolosoon said, a vulnerable manabase is not a detriment to a skilled player with a powerful deck.

Yes, but that manabase was even more vulnerable to Moon effects than most decks in Legacy.

Most Threshold builds run at least 1 basic Forest and 1 basic Plains (if white).

I'm not knocking the guy's ability to play, it's just my opinion that the manabase he was playing was more succeptible to non-basic land hate than most decks.

Anusien
03-10-2009, 05:55 PM
What matchups besides Rock-like matchups that have Spiritmonger and Gensis do you actually want Swords to Plowshares against?

Also, apparently Probasco's punt was that he knew exactly where the Krosan Grip was, but didn't set it up properly to interrupt Nassif before his draw and didn't call a judge to try and back up to the proper point to intervene. He intended to Grip post-Confidant pre-draw.

Fuzzy
03-10-2009, 09:01 PM
A question: All of you guys agree with the Ponders in this lists? I mean, they're strictly necessary? There's no better other thing to put it on?

kabal
03-10-2009, 09:16 PM
What matchups besides Rock-like matchups that have Spiritmonger and Gensis do you actually want Swords to Plowshares against

- Turn 1 Lackey, Hippie, Putrid Imp.
- Ichorid, Dreadnought, Countryside Crusher, Terravore

and tons of other creatures that can come down too quick and will sway the game before shackles or sower can nab them.

Misplayer
03-10-2009, 10:03 PM
Yes, but that manabase was even more vulnerable to Moon effects than most decks in Legacy.

Most Threshold builds run at least 1 basic Forest and 1 basic Plains (if white).

I'm not knocking the guy's ability to play, it's just my opinion that the manabase he was playing was more succeptible to non-basic land hate than most decks.

3c Thresh lists can run basics, but usually very few (see goobafish's list). 4c lists usually run 1-2 basics. Moon effects can also be very tough for decks like Landstill. Saying that Nassif's deck's manabase is vulnerable to Moon effects is not a legitimate point because the power he gains by running those 4 colors and being able to hit what he needs consistently to cast spells outweighs the chance he could scoop it up to Blood Moon. Again, the same principle applies to many decks in the format.

Esper3k
03-10-2009, 10:19 PM
3c Thresh lists can run basics, but usually very few (see goobafish's list). 4c lists usually run 1-2 basics. Moon effects can also be very tough for decks like Landstill. Saying that Nassif's deck's manabase is vulnerable to Moon effects is not a legitimate point because the power he gains by running those 4 colors and being able to hit what he needs consistently to cast spells outweighs the chance he could scoop it up to Blood Moon. Again, the same principle applies to many decks in the format.

See, I think pretty much losing to a Moon effect is a legitimate point to consider.

It's not like Moons are a rare card to run across in the format, so it should be something you want to have a plan for. Scooping is not what I'd call a good plan for it.

I'm not saying that you should run a lot of basics in a deck. Threshold decks usually at least run the minimum amount to be able to access your non-blue colors (usually 1 of each land).

Yes, many decks are in trouble if they get hit by an early Moon. What I'm saying is that Nassif's manabase seems that it would be in trouble if it gets hit by a Moon at any time.

A Moon will cut that deck's ability to play 15 cards (4 Swords, 1 Krosan Grip, 2 Trygon Predator, 4 Tarmogoyf, 4 Dark Confidant). On top of that, you're going to have a really tough time casting Counterbalance or Sower as well as have a really rough time using the Shackles, so that's another 8 cards you've effectively lost unless you happen to have both your basic Islands out.

Anusien
03-11-2009, 02:57 AM
A question: All of you guys agree with the Ponders in this lists? I mean, they're strictly necessary? There's no better other thing to put it on?
Andy caved to peer pressure right before his GPT. For months before that we had 4 Ponder 3 Brainstorm. Ponder is sick, and running three cmc draw spells sucks. Just always have Top.

Toad
03-11-2009, 05:21 AM
Most Threshold builds run at least 1 basic Forest and 1 basic Plains (if white).
... which is something I seriously do not understand. Blood Moon hits Turn 2 in Legacy. Threshold never ever wants to fetch a Turn 1 Forest, especially on the draw (shuts down Daze and prevents Turn 2 Counterbalance). The basic Forest has very little impact on Blood Moon resiliency, yet completely distorts the mana base because it forces you to run Wooded Foothills or Windswept Heath, fetchlands that cannot grab Underground Sea. Overall, the basic Forest just has a bad impact on the mana base. It is even worse if you start running Plains, because if all your lands are Mountains except a Plains, you cannot win the game.

Furthermore, running good cards > Blood Moon.

Overall, the fear of Blood Moon is seriously overrated. You lose to a Turn 2 Blood Moon, fair enough, shit happens.

Misplayer
03-11-2009, 07:52 AM
Andy caved to peer pressure right before his GPT. For months before that we had 4 Ponder 3 Brainstorm. Ponder is sick, and running three cmc draw spells sucks. Just always have Top.

After seeing both finalists' lists running 4 Top I've considered cutting a Ponder/Brainstorm (in a build closer to Thresh) because of how much better the deck gets with it out (duh). On the flip side, when you activate Top and see one in your top 3 it's a disappointment every time. Seeing Ponder off a Top activation is usually good if not awesome as it is a blue card and can provide a shuffle effect. That was my reasoning for staying at 4 Ponder, 4 Brainstorm and 3 Top. And with 3 Trinket Mage, I wonder how critical that 4th Top is...

The other question I have about the build is how does it deal with the hypothetical early Dreadnought/Lackey? Otherwise that list looks great (and has proven to be just that) and I plan on sleeving up something similar in the near future once I get my hands on some Trinket Magi. I like Probasco's list a lot better than Nassif's. It's unlike anything else in the format whereas Nassif's deck is much closer to many current Thresh lists, including my own.

Aj-capra
03-11-2009, 08:05 AM
I've just builded a my personal list of nlu.

Probasco's decklist inspired me.

I cut black cards for white cards.

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ALA] Island (1)
2 [TSP] Academy Ruins
3 [B] Tropical Island
2 [B] Volcanic Island
1 [ALA] Plains (3)
1 [B] Tundra
1 [ALA] Forest (1)

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [FD] Trinket Mage
3 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
2 [DIS] Trygon Predator

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [LRW] Ponder
4 [CST] Brainstorm
2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
1 [10E] Pithing Needle
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
1 [UL] Crop Rotation <-- good for ruins and wasta style, for ee at 4 too.
1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor <--- i cut 1 mage for white tutor vs vedalken

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 2 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [OD] Extract <--- vs counterbalance and progenitus too.

I cut cb+sdt because I prefer to have mana open for my spells in eot. There's a little manipulation, but in my on-line test I haven't suffer this.

I play relic main because this card is very very strong vs ichorid, ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh and tombstalker in game one too.

If I'll play black than white, I think to play duress main and diabolic edict in my sb.

Charlatan
03-11-2009, 08:40 AM
I've just builded a my personal list of nlu.

Probasco's decklist inspired me.

I cut black cards for white cards.


1st = No countertop?!?!?! You need this combo to survive.
2nd = 2 Trygon & 2 k. grip in MD?!?!
3rd = Tutor sux, put on the top of your library isn't good, put trinket bak, "put in your hand" effects are better. Because, this tutor is often a kind of solution, not a prevention act. So a 3cc spell isn't bad for this build and fits well for countertop.
4th = And about StP? I really don't have a defiitive opinion about it, may work or not, but Probasco have intended to "remove" creatures by taking control of them, IMHO.
5th = Academy ruins isn't a MUST draw card. Running 2 with 3 ponders, 4 brainstorms and 4 tops is all what you need to get your own cards.


Anybody tested o-ring instead of 2 schackles?

Aj-capra
03-11-2009, 09:08 AM
1st = No countertop?!?!?! You need this combo to survive.
2nd = 2 Trygon & 2 k. grip in MD?!?!
3rd = Tutor sux, put on the top of your library isn't good, put trinket bak, "put in your hand" effects are better. Because, this tutor is often a kind of solution, not a prevention act. So a 3cc spell isn't bad for this build and fits well for countertop.
4th = And about StP? I really don't have a defiitive opinion about it, may work or not, but Probasco have intended to "remove" creatures by taking control of them, IMHO.
5th = Academy ruins isn't a MUST draw card. Running 2 with 3 ponders, 4 brainstorms and 4 tops is all what you need to get your own cards.


Anybody tested o-ring instead of 2 schackles?

1° I see who I can survive w/out too. Obv cb+sdt help me versus aggro deck and burn in game 1
2° 2 trygon + 2 krip because in my metagame there're a lot of stax, dreadstill,faeries (bitterblossom) and dreadnought
3° tutor because play 3 trinket for 3 airtifacts who I play isnt't so good for me.
4° This deck must control opponent creatures, but I prefer a little control if I don't see sower or vedalken. But it's possible who I cut they.
5° Ruins is good if I've in my grave EE, because I can control the opponent board.

In my crazy ideas its possible who I cut 2 trygon for to play 2 venser, flash and counter/bouncer is a good control for me.

Now i'm building a black list who I'll play duress (MD) and Executioner's Capsule too.

Esper3k
03-11-2009, 09:26 AM
... which is something I seriously do not understand. Blood Moon hits Turn 2 in Legacy. Threshold never ever wants to fetch a Turn 1 Forest, especially on the draw (shuts down Daze and prevents Turn 2 Counterbalance). The basic Forest has very little impact on Blood Moon resiliency, yet completely distorts the mana base because it forces you to run Wooded Foothills or Windswept Heath, fetchlands that cannot grab Underground Sea. Overall, the basic Forest just has a bad impact on the mana base. It is even worse if you start running Plains, because if all your lands are Mountains except a Plains, you cannot win the game.

Furthermore, running good cards > Blood Moon.

Overall, the fear of Blood Moon is seriously overrated. You lose to a Turn 2 Blood Moon, fair enough, shit happens.

The 3C Threshold builds run the other basics because it actually doesn't hurt the manabase that much. For example, with UGw, running Windswept Heath over Polluted Delta really doesn't hinder your ability to get whatever color you need (since you can grab either Tundra or Tropical Island just fine).

Also, while many decks will fold under a T1 or T2 Blood Moon, with a manabase with only 2 basic Islands, you're going to get cut from all those cards even if a Moon effect hits you late game. The reason Threshold builds run a few basics is because of the mid-late game Moons/Back to Basics, not because of the early ones.

Anusien
03-11-2009, 10:31 AM
After seeing both finalists' lists running 4 Top I've considered cutting a Ponder/Brainstorm (in a build closer to Thresh) because of how much better the deck gets with it out (duh). On the flip side, when you activate Top and see one in your top 3 it's a disappointment every time. Seeing Ponder off a Top activation is usually good if not awesome as it is a blue card and can provide a shuffle effect. That was my reasoning for staying at 4 Ponder, 4 Brainstorm and 3 Top. And with 3 Trinket Mage, I wonder how critical that 4th Top is...
As GerryT put it, you usually want 2 Tops out to solidify the Counterbalance lock so you can flip one and still counter 2 drops later in the turn. Plus, you can always spin one away to fetchlands in order to get a real card. I love drawing extra Tops much more than I do any other card, especially now that people are starting to fight Tops. 4 Top is 100% a necessity.

P.S., who is interested in a report by Finalist Andrew Probasco? Help me peer pressure him into writing.

Aj-capra
03-11-2009, 10:40 AM
As GerryT put it, you usually want 2 Tops out to solidify the Counterbalance lock so you can flip one and still counter 2 drops later in the turn. Plus, you can always spin one away to fetchlands in order to get a real card. I love drawing extra Tops much more than I do any other card, especially now that people are starting to fight Tops. 4 Top is 100% a necessity.

P.S., who is interested in a report by Finalist Andrew Probasco? Help me peer pressure him into writing.

I'm intereted to read his report for looking match-up.

Thx Anusien

Esper3k
03-11-2009, 10:44 AM
I'd be interested as well.

rsaunder
03-11-2009, 10:51 AM
P.S., who is interested in a report by Finalist Andrew Probasco? Help me peer pressure him into writing.

YES SIR!

whienot
03-11-2009, 10:55 AM
P.S., who is interested in a report by Finalist Andrew Probasco? Help me peer pressure him into writing.

pressurepressurepressurepressurepressurepressurepressurepressurepressurepressurepressurepressurepressure

I'd love to read it.

Muradin
03-11-2009, 11:00 AM
Well, he made second place at the Legacy GP with a quite innovative deck. For sure I want to read something.

Adan
03-11-2009, 11:51 AM
He's Brassman on TMD, right? Let's spam him.

Aj-capra
03-11-2009, 11:58 AM
1st


Anybody tested o-ring instead of 2 schackles?

I thing o-ring is good verus cb only otherwise I prefer to play vedalken because I've more control vs opponent's creatures and I can clean his board too.

Vindicate may be a good solution??
If I must play a removal I prefer play vindicate because ring is stiflable and because trgoyn kills ring too and vindicate kills opponent's lands :P

Seriously
03-11-2009, 12:06 PM
I've just builded a my personal list of nlu.

Probasco's decklist inspired me.

I cut black cards for white cards.


why would you take a well tuned deck and muddle it down with jank.


Anybody tested o-ring instead of 2 schackles?

shackles lets you steal an opponents creature and beat them with it.
shackles lets you steal an opponents creature and chump block with it.

o-ring doesnt serve any of those functions.

Aj-capra
03-11-2009, 12:26 PM
why would you take a well tuned deck and muddle it down with jank.



shackles lets you steal an opponents creature and beat them with it.
shackles lets you steal an opponents creature and chump block with it.

o-ring doesnt serve any of those functions.

Nassif play black for his sideboard only and to make ee at 4.
Probasco play red for firespout and to make ee at 4.

Nassif play white for stp main and for his sideborad and to make ee at 4.
Probasco play black for 3 duress in sb and to make ee at 4.

I builded a list who is a combination.Why?

Because I prefer to play red than black and because firespout is better than duress for me.
I prefer to play stp than duress, but I think this isn't so good, because otherwise vedalken and sower are dead draws.

undone
03-11-2009, 12:28 PM
How does Nassif win against land disruption? It seems like he picks it up to tempo thresh unless the tempo thresh player draws 0 waste/stifle/ice.

I read the report and really think that this deck didnt win, nassif did. It definately isnt bad but 4 ponders seems important as I just cant seen justifying 2.

I love the board its actualy perfect as is although I might alter 1 card for sheer counter top curve that would be the extent of my alterations. The board is balanced and needs no fixing.

Only quarrles with the deck

1) It seems like it loses hard core to landstill and 43 lands.

I dont see a way to keep other matchups good while making these not suck.

2) Seems to be heavily metagamed against the Ux Control mirror, which is a bad idea in real metagames (not ones that are noob warped early).

3) It seems like it loses the URG tempo thresh matchup unless nassif is piloting it or the opponent mulls and doesnt draw key components of the match.

4) dispite 2 basics it still scoops it up to moon.

I do like confidant as draw but it seems really greedy to use this much CA vs going tempish as you have no tempo game I really dont see playing this much CA instead of tempo and some how managing to WIN grinding control matchups.

4 confidant
4 CB
2 Sower
2 Shackles

Misplayer
03-11-2009, 12:51 PM
I read the report and really think that this deck didnt win, nassif did.

Agree.


I do like confidant as draw but it seems really greedy to use this much CA vs going tempish as you have no tempo game I really dont see playing this much CA instead of tempo and some how managing to WIN grinding control matchups.

I'm not entirely sure what this means, but it seems like you're saying Card Advantage won't win you grinding control matchups. Ask any Landstill player, CA is the number one factor in winning grinding control matchups. Sticking a Dark Confidant will win you the game because you'll draw so many cards. Try it, you'll like it.

The Ocho
03-11-2009, 01:49 PM
What matchups besides Rock-like matchups that have Spiritmonger and Gensis do you actually want Swords to Plowshares against?

Goblin Lackey, Tarmogoyf, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Tombstalker, Lord of Atlantis, Dark Confidant and Countryside Crusher are just a few examples of men that you'd like to have removal for ASAP. You won't necessarily have the time to set up Vedalken Shackles or Sower of Temptation.

Swords to Plowshares is the best removal in the format. Period. Why would you not want to play it?


Andy caved to peer pressure right before his GPT. For months before that we had 4 Ponder 3 Brainstorm. Ponder is sick, and running three cmc draw spells sucks. Just always have Top.

Three Brainstorm is a joke. When it came down to putting their money on the line, Andy and Rich both came to their senses and made the correct choice by playing the required four Brainstorm. Ponder only has an advantage when you're looking for a specific card (like a land) because it lets you look at 4 cards compared to Brainstorm's 3. However, in all other situations, Brainstorm is better. Brainstorm turns into Dismiss when you have a Counterbalance out and no Top. Everyone walks into it. Brainstorm turns the midgame hand of lands into spells.

I find it hilarious that you could convince yourself that Ponder is superior. You don't always have Top.

Anusien
03-11-2009, 03:00 PM
Goblin Lackey, Tarmogoyf, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Tombstalker, Lord of Atlantis, Dark Confidant and Countryside Crusher are just a few examples of men that you'd like to have removal for ASAP. You won't necessarily have the time to set up Vedalken Shackles or Sower of Temptation.

Swords to Plowshares is the best removal in the format. Period. Why would you not want to play it?
Because it isn't necessary? Or because I hate exposing dual lands to the decks that have Wasteland. Doing so on turn 3-4 is much better than doing so on turn 1.

The Ocho
03-11-2009, 03:26 PM
Because it isn't necessary? Or because I hate exposing dual lands to the decks that have Wasteland. Doing so on turn 3-4 is much better than doing so on turn 1.

So you're saying that waiting to get rid of a Goblin Lackey or Dark Confidant is better when you can use a Sower or Shackles on turn 4 than when using a Swords on turn 1?

Much of the time, you won't have the required mana to use Sower or Shackles. Swords is much better in those situations.


On a side note, why did you travel all the way from Texas to merely judge at the GP? I would have thought that someone as focused on Legacy as you, a 'pillar' (I assume) of the community, would have jumped at the chance to play in domestic Legacy GP; an event that comes around very infrequently.

Anusien
03-11-2009, 03:39 PM
So you're saying that waiting to get rid of a Goblin Lackey or Dark Confidant is better when you can use a Sower or Shackles on turn 4 than when using a Swords on turn 1?

Much of the time, you won't have the required mana to use Sower or Shackles. Swords is much better in those situations.
Sure. Of course it depends on the situation, but Shackles is a much better answer to Dark Confidant than Swords to Plowshares because I start getting card advantage instead of trading one for one. And of course I'd rather Spell Snare it than Swords it. Of course I haven't been impressed by Dark Confidant in the CounterTop Goyf deck in quite some time.
Against Lackey I'm fine Forcing it turn 1 because that doesn't present me to Wasteland. Obviously Swordsing a Lackey is fine, but I feel like it makes your deck worse in the mirror. Playing this deck is both a gamble that you think Goblins won't be 50% of the field and also that you think SB Pyroclasm/Fallout/Firespout/Plague is good enough.
The only creatures I'm worried enough about to include StP are Tombstalker, Goblin Lackey and Spiritmonger. Not having StP has worked out well enough for me so far that I don't have any incentive to change.


On a side note, why did you travel all the way from Texas to merely judge at the GP? I would have thought that someone as focused on Legacy as you, a 'pillar' (I assume) of the community, would have jumped at the chance to play in domestic Legacy GP; an event that comes around very infrequently.
Being a judge is very important to me, as important if not more than playing. I felt like I could make a big contribution on the judge staff since I knew the format very well. It also helps that I knew I'd be up or even on the weekend rather than down if I didn't money.

jeanbathez
03-12-2009, 03:55 AM
P.S., who is interested in a report by Finalist Andrew Probasco? Help me peer pressure him into writing.

I'd be interested as well.

Thanks jeanbathez

Ironstickman
03-13-2009, 11:45 AM
One question: Why do you guys think Probasco ran 1 U.Sea for 3 Duress in the side.
What was their function exactly?, I mean, what make him choose them instead of 3 pyro/REB for example.
Thx.

P.d : I know, both of them have their pros and cons against the GP metagame -REB>Merfolk, NLU? Duress> Combo, etc- but I'd like to know what make him go in that direction specifically.

Anusien
03-13-2009, 11:56 AM
One question: Why do you guys think Probasco ran 1 U.Sea for 3 Duress in the side.
What was their function exactly?, I mean, what make him choose them instead of 3 pyro/REB for example.
Thx.

P.d : I know, both of them have their pros and cons against the GP metagame -REB>Merfolk, NLU? Duress> Combo, etc- but I'd like to know what make him go in that direction specifically.
I don't think he really respected Merfolk as a deck, and I think he figured he had Firespout in that matchup (it used to be Pyroclasm). I think he was much more worried about combo.

It used to be 2 Sea, but the 2nd Sea got trimmed for the 3rd Trop. It's not like combo is going to Wasteland you.

thefreakaccident
03-13-2009, 12:54 PM
I think that this would make a great hybrid idea:

lands//21
3 mutavault
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
4 underground sea
4 tundra
2 island


creatures//12
4 spellstutter sprite
2 vendilion clique
2 sower of temptation
4 dark confidant


spells//28
4 swords to plowshares
3 bitterblossom
2 vedalken shackles
4 brainstorm
3 sensei's divining top
2 ponder
4 force of will
3 daze
3 counterbalance

sideboard//
4 engineered plague
3 meddling mage
4 staff of progenitus
2 disenchant
2 pithing needle


You trade green (predator/grip/goyf) for more stability (easier to access your colors), better threats (bittertblossom is an amazing threat, and a 3/1 flier can go a long way)... The addition of mutavault allows the deck to fuel sprite (hard counter in this format, making the hard counter count 8), and allows us to increase our agro-plan once we have gained control of the game.

The creature control is almost excessive in this deck as well:

1. swords
2. bitterblossom
3. sower of temptation
4. potential back swing on your turn


With the potential to smash with a bunch of dudes (flashing in a clique EOT can add to a significant clock)...

Anyways, what do you guys think?

BrassMan
03-14-2009, 08:15 PM
One question: Why do you guys think Probasco ran 1 U.Sea for 3 Duress in the side.

The duress are specifically for combo (where they're much better than REB), I don't bring them in any other matches. I certainly wouldn't say I didn't respect merfolk as a deck, I just wanted space in my sideboard specifically for combo. In retrospect, combo didn't have an amazing showing though, so it's possible those slots were wrong.


On a tournament report: I'm not sure a tournament report would be that great a vehicle to say anything about the deck, I'm not sure how accurate it would be, and I haven't been offered anything to write it. If you guys want me to do like a direct QnA or discussion thread here on The Source I'd be happy to, but I'm not super familiar with the forum rules/policies and what/where you would want me to post.

Taurelin
03-14-2009, 09:16 PM
I also have a question about Probasco's list, in particular about the mana-base.

Would it be possible to change the 2 Academy Ruins (I guess you never want to draw both) into something like

-1 Academy Ruins
+1 Tolaria West

Tolaria West would also have the advantage
- to provide blue mana with Choke on the board
- to fetch EE (or Crypt G2+3) without relying on Trinket Mage
- to fetch a Basic Forest, which would be an answer to Blood Moon effects (EE @3, constant green mana for Grip, Goyf etc.)

Maybe one could cut one Volcanic or Tropical for this single Forest.

Anusien
03-14-2009, 09:57 PM
My answer to Blood Moon was always some complicated manabase restructuring that involved fetching basic Forest for Goyf or playing Demigod of Revenge. His is just having enough basic Islands to Shackles or Sower their threat through Blood Moon. I think that plan works much better. Sideboarding Disk if you're that worried is probably a better answer than Tolaria West.

BrassMan
03-15-2009, 02:27 AM
Would it be possible to change the 2 Academy Ruins (I guess you never want to draw both) into something like
-1 Academy Ruins
+1 Tolaria West


The double Academy Ruins isn't just in the list so you find it faster, you actually want the redundant one in some matches, particularly anything else with Ruins, where you may need to legend rule one of them away. If your meta hasn't "figured out [Academy Ruins] yet" or just doesn't like it, the 2nd one probably isn't necessary.

As for Tolaria West, I haven't tested it, but it doesn't sound horrible. I will say though, that one Tolaria West isn't going to win you a match against resolved choke, you need dedicated sideboard answers for that (which I have been forced to run in my regular meta, but didn't think would be necessary for the GP.) In situations where you're Westing for an EE, if it's an anti aggro measure, Trinket Mage is much better, but I could see TW being nice in the CB mirror. Anusien pretty much summed up my feelings on the Blood Moon issue.

Taurelin
03-15-2009, 06:42 AM
Thx for the input, Anusien.

And thx for the explanation, BrassMan. Such information is very interesting and useful and can't be found in an "official" coverage of the deck's performance.

Muradin
03-15-2009, 04:16 PM
@Brassann: I'd actually like to see what you consider the weaknesses of this deck and what your sideboarding was like in most matchups. So far I've played the deck in one local tournament and came in 6th place of 25 people after losing to dreadstill in the top 8. (Had beaten it 2-0 in the swiss.)

I have to say that I was surprised how well I did against goblins despite not having actual removal in g1. However I am not even sure whether CB/Top should be boarded out in the goblin matchup as otherwise sower can not really be protected and there is quite a lot of cc3 and 4 stuff in the deck to make CB relevant. In those games I played against goblins I took the balances out though, because I couldn't come up with much else.

My boarding against goblins was:

-4 CB
-1 Top
-2 Krosan Grip
+3 Firespout
+2 Ancient Grudge
+2 Hydroblast

What do you think about that?

BrassMan
03-16-2009, 03:22 AM
for weaknesses of the deck, I'd say it depends on how you build your sideboard, with all the card filtering it's easy to find almost anything post board, which makes simple a lot of matchups that would otherwise be trouble. At the GP both of my swiss losses were to Ritual->Tombstalker, backed up by heavy discard. That combination does seem to be pretty problematic for the deck.


my plan against goblins with the GP sideboard would more likely be:
-1 Counterbalance
-2 Krosan Grip
-3 Spell Snare
+3 Firespout
+2 Hydroblast
+1 Pithing Needle

Snares probably get the nod over CBs if you see extra 2 drops (Tin Streets or Sparksmiths could ruin your day), but just countering Piledriver isn't that impressive.

Note that Needle answers Vial as well as Grudge can for one less, and can also hit a number of other strong cards out of goblins (Gempalm Incinerator is a favorite of mine to call). If the goblins deck in question has actual nonvial artifacts you're worried about, bringing in the grudges would make sense, but I can't think of anything like that out of goblins I'd be worried about.

Depending on your meta it might be worth it to add more anti goblins cards. Clasm, Firespout, and Hydroblast are my favorite, but your mileage may vary

Pulp_Fiction
03-16-2009, 03:36 AM
Whoa, I would never post in this thread otherwise, but I see Andy is actually posting on the Source!!!! Good to see! You should really upload a bunch of your altered cards. But anyway, part of the reason why his SB plans work so well .... is because Andy has a really bad habbit of drawing exactly what he needs at exactly the right time :) I have repeatedly asked him to show me how to do this ... but he won't! Perhaps it is best left unspoken for fear of me bringing TES or ANT up there every week and drawing exactly what I need!!!!

xfrt
03-18-2009, 04:54 AM
How is NLU doing vs Aggro Loam, Survival and Merfolk?

Is NLU a good choice for a meta game with those three archtypes dominating?

jazzykat
03-19-2009, 11:15 PM
...

2 Versions of this deck took first and second at the largest legacy event ever. I'm sort of surprised that the conversation about them has died down.

I have been playing the 2 decks and I LOVE them.

If Brassman is still monitoring this thread I have questions for him:

1. How do you handle small resolved dudes and random aggro? I realize you have some normal answers, goyf, explosives, shackles, and something more unique Sower.

2. Was this deck a highly tuned metagame deck? I see how you would murder every thresh/dreadstill/Aggro-Control deck you faced. W/o swords it looks like you are missing your early spot removal. What would you change if you went into more random meta?

3. Did you have an issue without raw CA (except for trinket mage) other decks use DC and landstill, you just have a massive amount of virtual and tempo. Since you finished undefeated game 1 I assume it was enough.

4. You are known as a very good player winning moxes and such. Do you feel that this deck is really that good or do you feel that your playskill overcame deficiencies in the deck (if any)?

BrassMan
03-20-2009, 02:04 AM
How is NLU doing vs Aggro Loam, Survival and Merfolk?

Is NLU a good choice for a meta game with those three archtypes dominating?

Against aggro loam basic islands and sowers can win a lot of games by themselves, Needles are really nice in the matchup, shutting off cycling lands, wastelands, seismic assault.

Survival is just something I've never been to worried about, but it's possible I underestimate the deck. I've yet to see the Survival deck that can function well without a survival hitting, and between snares, needles, and counterbalance/force, it's not too hard to keep them off of that.

With my specific list merfolk is a little scary. Firespout is amazing, but Shackles and Sower are pretty atrocious against Lord of Atlantis.

Honestly against those three decks, Nassif's maindeck with Swords might be better. My list is fine against those decks, but it's mostly built for the counterbalance/tarmogoyf mirror, whereas swords makes your deck more general-purpose.


1. How do you handle small resolved dudes and random aggro? I realize you have some normal answers, goyf, explosives, shackles, and something more unique Sower.

Goyf + Force hands can often buy you a lot of time, but this deck is really built for games 2/3 more than game 1. Firespout and Blue Blasts are critical in matches against little guys.


2. Was this deck a highly tuned metagame deck? I see how you would murder every thresh/dreadstill/Aggro-Control deck you faced. W/o swords it looks like you are missing your early spot removal. What would you change if you went into more random meta?

It was metagamed, yes, for sure, but in a balanced metagame I still think it's strong. Counterbalance and Goyf are just so much stronger than other strategies that it'll get you there a decent amount of the time. It's not that I expected a LOT of the threshy decks at the GP, it's that I thought they were the strongest decks, and the most difficult to beat, so the most worth dedicating cards to. If your metagame is skewed specifically against CB decks, without many of them going around, then yeah I could see some metagaming being right. I will mention, however, that against most of the format, swords is one of the weaker post board options, (as opposed to the cards I ended up running, mostly)


3. Did you have an issue without raw CA (except for trinket mage) other decks use DC and landstill, you just have a massive amount of virtual and tempo. Since you finished undefeated game 1 I assume it was enough.

This was on purpose, and in my opinion one of the major strengths of the deck. I've won a lot of games hugely behind on physical cards, because the cards I drew and played were stronger/more important. An opponent who draws 2 lands, 2 swords, 2 vendillon cliques AND 2 more draw spells is STILL going to lose to 1 Shackles. Counterbalance wars are a huge part of this, as using cantrips to get and stick a CounterTop NOW is much more important than drawing 5 cards in a few turns. The majority of those cards will be completely invalidated by the top that's in play, nowhere is this more dramatic than in the case of Swords to Plowshares, which is completely dead against an opponent whos plan is to drop Counterbalance before anything else.


4. You are known as a very good player winning moxes and such. Do you feel that this deck is really that good or do you feel that your playskill overcame deficiencies in the deck (if any)?
Thank you! people who know me personally know that I'm incredibly pessimistic, and probably downplay the factor of skill in any of my wins, so take this with a grain of salt. I attribute most of my success, at this GP but also in vintage, to deckbuilding and tuning, rather than any particularly fantastic play. Without trying to sound arrogant, I really think it was the right deck for the event.

Anusien
03-20-2009, 02:09 AM
Two things:
1) BrassDeck is sick. I've punted into so many wins anyway with the deck because it is so powerful. Honestly, card advantage often is irrelevant except where it comes to landing Counterbalance, because in many matches you are a straight-up Counterbalance combo deck.
2) I haven't been afraid of Aggro Loam in a long while when I was playing any Counterbalance deck. They're almost completely cold to it, and they have so few relevant cards without being able to Loam for two or three turns.

Gekoratel
03-20-2009, 02:13 PM
I don't know if I agree with your second point, getting CB/Top is very powerful against Loam decks G1 but they run a decent number of 3cc threats (Terravore/Crusher) which you can't always stop with the CB/Top combo. I'll agree though that getting an early CB lock goes a long way to winning the matchup. But post-board they most assuredly have 3-4 Krosan Grip to deal with Counterbalance/Shackles which makes things harder. Are you only referring to G1 or post-board as well?

jazzykat
03-20-2009, 03:36 PM
@Gekoratel: Having played a TON of aggro-loam and about the same amount of NLU in Legacy as everyone here except Brassman I feel moderately qualified to address the matchup.

Nassif's build falls prey much more to wasteland, and only has a Grip for a resolved chalice at 1 MD. I can see this being a tougher matchup but you still have Sower.

Brassman's deck looks like it was set up to pwn aggroloam. First he has a ton of basics. Second he has a Trinketable explosives MD, and can even shut off something via his MD needle. Lastly, the more successful aggro-loam (at least at the GP) lists have very little spot removal so a Sower steals Terravore and you proceed to win from there. If you play his deck how do you not pwn aggro-loam?

Gekoratel
03-20-2009, 04:02 PM
I wasn't talking about Brassman's NLU vs. Aggro Loam but just CB/Top decks in general vs. Aggro Loam. I had tested Uw Dreadstill vs. Aggro Loam a bit and thought that it was a tough matchup despite having access to many basics and stp. I just feel that while CB/Top is strong against Loam it can still be difficult to deal with their threats. I played against Aggro Loam twice at the GP going 1-1 I was running Uw Dreadstill.

Anusien
03-20-2009, 04:46 PM
Both. Like, sure, you have this Countryside Crusher guy, but he's very unimpressive in a world where you don't have Loam. I also tend to side Blue Elemental Blasts in the matchup; Terravore will suck without Loam and Crusher is manageable.

Basically my plan is to win game 1 because they're completely cold to Counterbalance. Then you can pick up one of the two post-board games by way of A) countering Burning Wish and they don't draw Loam, B) getting CBalance and they don't draw Grip, C) getting two Counterbalances and winning, or D) containing all their creatures. Sometimes you can get there with a good EE or Sower and they just can't recover. Playing a turn 2 Tarmogoyf, turn 3-4 EE for 3 or Shackles/Sower with Force in hand can go a long way in the matchup.

Taurelin
03-21-2009, 08:09 AM
The duress are specifically for combo (where they're much better than REB), I don't bring them in any other matches. ... I just wanted space in my sideboard specifically for combo. In retrospect, combo didn't have an amazing showing though, so it's possible those slots were wrong.

So that basically means that in a meta without much combo you have 3 open slots in the SB (and no need for the B splash, actually), right?

How would you fill these slots in a meta packed with AggroControl, CB-mirror and Landstill/Dreadstill?

Would 3 REB be a good idea?
Or more Grips and maybe some Blood Moons as a nasty surprise vs Landstill?

BrassMan
03-21-2009, 03:04 PM
So that basically means that in a meta without much combo you have 3 open slots in the SB (and no need for the B splash, actually), right?
How would you fill these slots in a meta packed with AggroControl, CB-mirror and Landstill/Dreadstill?
Would 3 REB be a good idea?
Or more Grips and maybe some Blood Moons as a nasty surprise vs Landstill?

The problem with REB is that your whole maindeck is already tuned for those matchups, you wouldn't really have a lot to board out (though they're not terrible to have around for Merfolk). If you expect a lot of lists like mine or Dreadstill, or any other list that relies on artifacts, another Ancient Grudge wouldn't be terrible. Blood Moon is pretty underwhelming if it's expected, but if people don't see it coming it can be devastating (I think I'd lean towards Magus over the enchantment).

Taurelin
03-21-2009, 11:37 PM
If you expect a lot of lists like mine or Dreadstill, or any other list that relies on artifacts, another Ancient Grudge wouldn't be terrible.

Interesting point. I played a 100% mirror match (!) on MWS yesterday, and the key to winning was the question: Who can take over whose creatures (Sower vs Shackles etc.)? Unfortunately, we only could play G1. Sb-options would have been nice.


Blood Moon is pretty underwhelming if it's expected, but if people don't see it coming it can be devastating (I think I'd lean towards Magus over the enchantment).

The thing is that Magus is much easier to hate (removal) than Blood Moon, but Blood Moon is more difficult to protect with Counterbalance / countermagic (vs Krosan Grip). If CB sticks, Magus is actually much better then. I agree.

So basically, a SB without black might look like:

3 Firespout
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Hydroblast
2 Magus of the Moon
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pithing Needle
1 Krosan Grip

And the manabase of the maindeck:
6 Island
8 Fetchlands
2 Academy Ruins
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island

thefreakaccident
03-22-2009, 01:07 AM
Interesting point. I played a 100% mirror match (!) on MWS yesterday, and the key to winning was the question: Who can take over whose creatures (Sower vs Shackles etc.)? Unfortunately, we only could play G1. Sb-options would have been nice.



The thing is that Magus is much easier to hate (removal) than Blood Moon, but Blood Moon is more difficult to protect with Counterbalance / countermagic (vs Krosan Grip). If CB sticks, Magus is actually much better then. I agree.

So basically, a SB without black might look like:

3 Firespout
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Hydroblast
2 Magus of the Moon
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pithing Needle
1 Krosan Grip

And the manabase of the maindeck:
6 Island
8 Fetchlands
2 Academy Ruins
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island

DONT CUT BLACK... Black is the reason that the deck keeps going and why it is so powerful.

Also, you cannot forget how good blossom is.

Taurelin
03-22-2009, 05:43 AM
DONT CUT BLACK... Black is the reason that the deck keeps going and why it is so powerful.

Err... I was still refering to Brassman's list, not yours (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=327839&postcount=46).

And as pointed out above, in that list B is only there for Duress in the SB. And in a meta in which combo is underrepresented, I guess the deck is able to keep going and be powerful without that 4th color.

from Cairo
03-22-2009, 11:25 PM
I don't know if I agree with your second point, getting CB/Top is very powerful against Loam decks G1 but they run a decent number of 3cc threats (Terravore/Crusher) which you can't always stop with the CB/Top combo. I'll agree though that getting an early CB lock goes a long way to winning the matchup. But post-board they most assuredly have 3-4 Krosan Grip to deal with Counterbalance/Shackles which makes things harder. Are you only referring to G1 or post-board as well?

One of the best parts of Probasco's list is that it runs a decent number of 3cc cards too. Counterbalance/Top is just so much better in this deck than it is in many others, cause unlike traditional Thresh, where they have all 1cc and 2cc a huge hole in 3-4cc and 4 Force of Will, this lists curve/cmc configuration leaves it so that the deck can often float whatever 2 casting costs are most relevant to the match.

Breaking it down by cmc:

1cc 15
2cc 8 (light, but has 3 Spell Snare to supplement)
3cc 7
4cc 3
5cc 4

So versus stuff like Thresh or Combo, it can sit there with the traditional 1 and 2 cc cards in the top 3 and lock them out, but it adds the ability to sit on 3 and 4 against Goblins, or 2 and 3 against Survival or Agro Loam.


The majority of those cards will be completely invalidated by the top that's in play, nowhere is this more dramatic than in the case of Swords to Plowshares, which is completely dead against an opponent whos plan is to drop Counterbalance before anything else...

Without trying to sound arrogant, I really think it was the right deck for the event.

Really sums it up perfectly.

klaus
03-23-2009, 05:48 PM
This is my version, which I'm really happy with. It's tuned for a competitive meta:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Elspeth, Knight's Errant
4 Noble Hierarch-----------hyped, and still underrated! Bob, Top and Daze love her so dearly! While LD, opposing Dazes and Goyfs... despise her!

4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Plains

SB:
1 Enlightened Tutor ....(yeah. trademark toolbox yet again!)
3 Engineered Plague
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Energy Flux
1 Pithing Needle
1 Aura of Silence
1 Threads of Disloyalty
3 Hydroblast
-

Citrus-God
03-30-2009, 01:29 PM
Has anybody else tested Trinket Mage yet? So far, I'm thinking that Trinket Mage could use some awesomeness right now, so I compiled a list of cards which may make Trinket Mage slightly more useful. Just being able to grab SDT, EE and Needle seems very lite and can make Trinket Mage look a little err in a lot of match ups.

Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Progenitus, Despeller's Capsule, Executioner's Capsule, EE, SDT, Needle, artifact lands, Meekstone and Sigil of Distinction.

Right now, I'm leaning towards Sigil of Distinction. It makes Sowers out of Burn range, makes Goyfs and Sowers out of Shackles ranger and turns a small little Trinket Mage into a monster. Also, this is how you win Goyf wars.

jazzykat
03-30-2009, 02:36 PM
WRT to Trinket Mage: 2 weeks ago I used a trinket package with Top, EE, and pithing needle to a second place finish (I intentionally drew my 3rd. round). Last week I played NLPainter (see thread in New and Devolopment to a 5-0 finish. So uh, yeah you can get a lot out of trinket mage.

Anusien
03-31-2009, 05:33 PM
Has anybody else tested Trinket Mage yet?


Andy Probasco

2 Vedalken Shackles
3 Spell Snare
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Ponder
1 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
4 Force of Will
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
3 Trinket Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Sower of Temptation
2 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
6 Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Academy Ruins

Sideboard:
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Duress
3 Firespout
2 Hydroblast
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt

Pemmin
04-05-2009, 06:46 AM
How about a maindeck Dust Bowl instead of the second Academy Ruins?
-> Then one could also play a Crucible of Worlds in Sideboard. (I played a lot of games against dreadstill and the key to win for him was always to cut me of my green/ red mana with sitfle, trickbind and Wasteland)
-> as the freak accident said before I would also cut off black. But I dont like to play 2 Magus of the Moon and the third Grudge in my Sideboard. So I have still 2 empty slots in my SB. also I prefer to play a 2nd relict above the 2nd crypt.

1x Crucible of Worlds
3x BEB
1x Magus of the Moon
2x Relict of P.
1x Tormods Crypt
3x Firespout
1x Needle
2x Grudge
1x Krosan Grip

What do you think of that plan? Maybe the random Magus is not good enough?

Fossil4182
04-05-2009, 02:58 PM
Vendilion Clique seems like it would be a good include in the deck. My guess is that it would be used over the Trygon Predator. Trygon could always be moved to the board and Clique would be a better call against decks that don't have a lot of artifact/enchantments. Plus, its not like in those match ups that Clique wouldn't be effective.

Citrus-God
04-05-2009, 03:26 PM
Vendilion Clique seems like it would be a good include in the deck. My guess is that it would be used over the Trygon Predator. Trygon could always be moved to the board and Clique would be a better call against decks that don't have a lot of artifact/enchantments. Plus, its not like in those match ups that Clique wouldn't be effective.

Vendelion Clique is also good against Aggro Loam. Being able to hit Loam rawks.

Anusien
04-06-2009, 10:43 AM
Against a smart player you are never going to hit Loam. Leave Loam in the graveyard; dredge it with a cycling land and cast it immediately.

jeanbathez
04-06-2009, 11:10 AM
I'am still thinking about Probasco Deck and his answers in the interview (By the way the interviews were fantastic, very good idea !)). Its very very interesting, so see the choices in his deck and why.
What i realized, when i look at tournament results, a lot of people play nassifs deck, but i couldn't find a tournament with a copy of his list ?

And i'am pondering about his curve for CB (without lands) :
0 : 1
1 : 15
2 : 8
3 : 7
4 : 3
5 : 4

Normally i would say the curve has too much 1 and needs more 2 CC ???

Taurelin
04-06-2009, 11:31 AM
That's where the Spell Snares come in. They hit that CC2 stuff if you accidentally don't have anything for 2 on top.

However, with all that cantripping, fetching etc. you simply do find what you need pretty often, just that the higher numbers for 3-4 allow more flexibility.

Citrus-God
04-06-2009, 03:23 PM
Against a smart player you are never going to hit Loam. Leave Loam in the graveyard; dredge it with a cycling land and cast it immediately.

Draw step bro. They dredge it back, priority goes back to you on draw step; so you cast the fucking Clique right there. And you'd be surprised at how often Aggro Loam players walk into Clique.

Jujuhawk
04-06-2009, 03:53 PM
Draw step bro. They dredge it back, priority goes back to you on draw step; so you cast the fucking Clique right there. And you'd be surprised at how often Aggro Loam players walk into Clique.


Against a smart player you are never going to hit Loam. Leave Loam in the graveyard; dredge it with a cycling land and cast it immediately.

Anusien
04-06-2009, 03:54 PM
Draw step bro. They dredge it back, priority goes back to you on draw step; so you cast the fucking Clique right there. And you'd be surprised at how often Aggro Loam players walk into Clique.
Yes. But in Extended it became standard practice to play it around it by not dredging in the draw step, but keeping a cycling land back and dredging it during mainphase. I have caught Loams on draw step with Clique, but don't count on it happening against good players. It's more powerful when used against cards like Volrath's Stronghold and Academy Ruins.

Citrus-God
04-06-2009, 04:25 PM
Yes. But in Extended it became standard practice to play it around it by not dredging in the draw step, but keeping a cycling land back and dredging it during mainphase. I have caught Loams on draw step with Clique, but don't count on it happening against good players. It's more powerful when used against cards like Volrath's Stronghold and Academy Ruins.

Reasonable.

With that said, is Clique good enough to run over Trygon Predator? It seems kinda meta dependent.

b4r0n
04-06-2009, 06:13 PM
With that said, is Clique good enough to run over Trygon Predator? It seems kinda meta dependent.

Clique is amazing. He (she? they?) is hard to play correctly, but he gives you a lot of power and versatility. Predator is pretty good, but I've been a bit underwhelmed by him lately. He's an evasive beater, but he's not much of a clock. And although the repeated artifact/enchantment destruction is good, I think maindeck Grips might just be better.

But like you said, it does depend on your metagame and what you're worried about.

Anusien
04-06-2009, 07:36 PM
Reasonable.

With that said, is Clique good enough to run over Trygon Predator? It seems kinda meta dependent.
I'm pretty sure Predator is actually terrible. The enchantment you most want it to blow up (Blood Moon) it can't, and tapping 3 mana at sorcery speed for that effect. People who played it at the GP seemed very unimpressed with it. At least if Clique eats StP it also Duressed them.

Jujuhawk
04-06-2009, 08:31 PM
I'm pretty sure Predator is actually terrible. The enchantment you most want it to blow up (Blood Moon) it can't, and tapping 3 mana at sorcery speed for that effect. People who played it at the GP seemed very unimpressed with it. At least if Clique eats StP it also Duressed them.

clique is so much better than predator. The speed bump in the power is a big deal, and disrupting your opponent, while minor, can still make a big difference (getting an stp, or whatever).

Like, you can get a top if they draw with their top, and you clique them after draw step, you can get a loam if they don't expect it (but they will play around it afterward if they aren't terrible), it dodges counterbalance nicely generally, trades with goose, etcetc.

Muradin
04-08-2009, 05:17 PM
I've tried to come up with my own build of NLU and this came out:

Maindeck: 60
6 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Academy Ruins
1 Miren the Moaning Well
4 Chome Mox
4 Senseis Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trinket Mage
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Vedalken Shackles
2 Threads of Disloyalty
3 Thirst for Knowledge

Sideboard: 15
3 Krosan Grip
3 Firespout
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Sower of Temptation
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Relic of Progenitus

The deck is quite similar to an old Extended Variant of the deck by Luis Scott Vargas. Chrome Mox gives the deck a nice speed boost in the earlygame and provides you with a nice carddraw engine with Thirst for Knowledge.

Fossil4182
04-16-2009, 06:08 PM
Concerning sideboard construction, is it overkill to run both Grip and Trygon in the same board? I almost feel like it could be. However, I feel in a meta where you could expect to see Stax, having Trygon is always going to preferable. Outside of that, I don't think you want to make your artifact and enchantment removal susceptible to creature hate. Any thoughts?

from Cairo
04-16-2009, 08:56 PM
I've tried to come up with my own build of NLU and this came out:

Maindeck: 60
6 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Academy Ruins
1 Miren the Moaning Well
4 Chome Mox
4 Senseis Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trinket Mage
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Vedalken Shackles
2 Threads of Disloyalty
3 Thirst for Knowledge

Sideboard: 15
3 Krosan Grip
3 Firespout
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Sower of Temptation
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Relic of Progenitus

The deck is quite similar to an old Extended Variant of the deck by Luis Scott Vargas. Chrome Mox gives the deck a nice speed boost in the earlygame and provides you with a nice carddraw engine with Thirst for Knowledge.

I much prefer Probasco's list with Ponders over TfKs. Ponder does a better job at getting you what you need in the early game; for example digging for Top/CB/Firespout (post board), where by the time you can cast Thirst for Knowledge you're missing turns you'd ideally be casting those spells.

I don't see the need for Chrome Mox, the deck generally plays out sort of slowly, but it doesn't have to play into disruption like alot of other control decks in the format. It can simply drop basics for the first 4-5 turns, and not have to worry about Wasteland or Moon effects, then the slow start is made up for by all the mid-game cards generating card advantage.

Also I like Sower better than Threads, since it's not that hard to protect with CB (almost all the removal for him is 1-2cc), it's a bit faster clock and it's a 4 flip for Counterbalance.

ShiftyKapree
04-22-2009, 11:17 AM
I think this deck will be the next tier one as thresh is loseing the creatures with thresh it really is just countertop goyf/ baseruption. Anyone else feel this way?

grahf
04-22-2009, 01:46 PM
Deck names are just names...

Enigma
04-22-2009, 02:03 PM
About all thresh players from my area switched to NLU (probasco's list)

There is our list:

Creatures: 12
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Sower of Temptation
3x Trinket Mage
2x Vendilion Clique

Instants: 13
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of will
3x Spell snare
2x Krosan Grip

Sorcery: 2
2x Ponder

Artifacts: 8
2x Vedalken Shackles
1x Pithing Needle
1x Engineered Explosives
4x Sensei's divining top

Enchantements: 4
4x Counterbalance

Lands: 22
2x Academy Ruins
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
3x Tropical Island
2x Volcanic Island
7x Islands

SB: 15
3x Firespout
1x Pyroclasm
2x Ancient Grudge
1x Meekstone
1x Pithing Needle
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Chalice of the void
1x Tormod's Crypt
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Blood Moon (Sometimes playing FUTURE SIGHT in that slot, as it's a gamebreaker in the mirror match)

This deck is just really good.

Last tournament (62 people w/ 6 rounds), I finished 12th, loosing to Merfolks and Eva Green, winning against Dragon Stompy, Natural Stompy, Affinity and Zoo.

An other list inspired by GP pro's list, is a UGB nassif list with the new Maelstrom pulses, which are just awsomes. I don't want to flood lists here, and it's why I think we should have a dedicated primer for both lists, as they are both the future of thresh-like decks.


P-M

johanessen
04-23-2009, 09:22 AM
(Copy from the ugw thresh post...)

Okay this is the Counter-Top UGw list i'm gonna play next tournament . . . i need your opinion.

Lands - 19
3 Islands
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand

Creatures - 11
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Trinket Mage
2 Trygon Predator
2 Sower of Temptation

Spells - 18
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares

Permanents - 12
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei Divining Top
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle

SideBoard - 15
4 Meddling Mage
2 Hydroblast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Krosan Grip

Trying to abuse of trinket's tutor. maindeck and sideboard.
Academy Ruins - Yes or not? Maybe in a 20-land list?
Lands. 19 are enough? Remember I play Daze.
Daze in a semi-control list. Yes or not? Maybe 3?
Pithing Needle Maindeck, yes or not?
Meddling Mage on sideboard. Thoughts?

This is a mixed from Nassif and Probasco lists.

Thanks for help

Ch@os
04-23-2009, 09:39 AM
Why no black?
I mean you splash white for sword but no black for Bob or Vindicate.

johanessen
04-23-2009, 09:46 AM
I think with Trinket mage we have card advantage plus tutor that i think it's a HOUSE, dark confidant is very good but we need to set up top and it's too mana intensive to mantain no damage through confidant and 2c/3c card at topdeck for CB. Confidant can be stp'd while trinket would have search when came into play. ALso i think four color mana base is too much.

While i think white for swords is a need in a deck with no 1st turn answer, and meddling mage in side helps alot in a combo-meta like barcelona.

Jak
04-23-2009, 09:49 AM
I think with Trinket mage we have card advantage plus tutor that i think it's a HOUSE, dark confidant is very good but we need to set up top and it's too mana intensive to mantain no damage through confidant and 2c/3c card at topdeck for CB. Confidant can be stp'd while trinket would have search when came into play. ALso i think four color mana base is too much.

While i think white for swords is a need in a deck with no 1st turn answer, and meddling mage in side helps alot in a combo-meta like barcelona.

Your curve is so low that you don't even need Top with Confidant. Seriously, Confidant is amazing. You should try playing with it.

johanessen
04-23-2009, 09:59 AM
Your curve is so low that you don't even need Top with Confidant. Seriously, Confidant is amazing. You should try playing with it.


SO what would you cut? trinket mages?
I think tutor hability is very nice finding fast tops, EE, needles, etc also sideboard

Misplayer
04-23-2009, 10:45 AM
No, you can easily have it all. Here's my threat base:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Trygon Predator
2 Trinket Mage
1 Sower of Temptation

Also, if you want to stay 3c, cut an Island for a Plains and Deltas for Heaths.

ShiftyKapree
04-23-2009, 10:51 AM
Lands - 18
1 Plains
1 Forest
2 Islands
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand

Creatures - 10
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trinket Mage
2 Trygon Predator
2 Sower of Temptation

Spells - 21
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Snare

Permanents - 11
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei Divining Top
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
This is the list I would run at any tourny. The sideboard would be metagame dependent. I always prefer to play basic lands today because of moon affects. They cripple you so much. You only need 3 tops because of the draw and Trinket Mage. The rest is pretty self explanatory

johanessen
04-23-2009, 10:59 AM
18 Lands including basic Plains and Forest? That's crap.

ShiftyKapree
04-23-2009, 11:02 AM
your gonna lose to moon thresh then. You need basic lands because of wastes and moon affects. You have to be a fool not to run 4 basic lands. You should also run windswept heath instead so you can needle the deltas. Crippling mana bases means games. Stifle is good if your on the play. Stifling a fetchland means games.

johanessen
04-23-2009, 11:05 AM
I prefer to play a 1st turn Top and turn 2 CB searching basic Island with Polluted delta (not opened to a wasteland) than use heaths that able me to name Polluted with Pithing.

ShiftyKapree
04-23-2009, 11:07 AM
Your Cb might get dazed or FOW also same thing with the top. Heaths provide the same mana as delta if your fetching for duals. The main problem you don't see is landstill which will be killing your mana base all day if you don't take control of the game early. You will lose to it by reoccuring wastelands

Anusien
04-23-2009, 11:45 AM
How do you mix a deck with 22 lands and a deck with 20 lands and end up with 19 lands?

By the way, 19 lands, Daze, and 4 drops aren't the perfect combo.

johanessen
04-23-2009, 12:11 PM
How do you mix a deck with 22 lands and a deck with 20 lands and end up with 19 lands?

One word: Daze.


By the way, 19 lands, Daze, and 4 drops aren't the perfect combo.

That's one problem. We need to wait one or two more turns but daze is very necessary for a turn 2 CB.

CB means games.

Misplayer
04-23-2009, 12:50 PM
I prefer to play a 1st turn Top and turn 2 CB searching basic Island with Polluted delta (not opened to a wasteland) than use heaths that able me to name Polluted with Pithing.

So your first two fetches are for Island just to play CB and play around the hypothetical Wasteland? That seems pretty weak when the tradeoff is the ability to fetch basics for all of your colors. Like you said, CB wins games, so you can take the tempo hit when they waste your Tundra because you wanted a turn 2 CB and only had a Windswept Heath as your second land.

Naming Polluted Delta with Pithing Needle is usually weak, but being able to fetch your basic Forest/Plains is huge, and EASILY supportable in 3c.

Also, it seems like this, the UGw Thresh thread, and the UGb Thresh thread are all really discussing the same archetype. UGr is different because it usually means Canadian or Moon Thresh, but UGb, UGw, UGbw are all moving in the same direction as I see it.

Anusien
04-23-2009, 12:56 PM
Basic Plains is pretty miserable. Basic Forest lets you cast Tarmogoyf, which is fine, but you only need to do it once every game so I can't understand the need. I'd rather just have Islands; they go with everything (being able to Sower through Wasteland/Blood Moon is much more important than being able to Tarmogoyf through it).

johanessen
04-23-2009, 01:18 PM
So your first two fetches are for Island just to play CB and play around the hypothetical Wasteland? That seems pretty weak when the tradeoff is the ability to fetch basics for all of your colors. Like you said, CB wins games, so you can take the tempo hit when they waste your Tundra because you wanted a turn 2 CB and only had a Windswept Heath as your second land.

Who said second fetch goes for basic Island?

Misplayer
04-23-2009, 01:29 PM
Who said second fetch goes for basic Island?

Well you said you open with Top, then go for CB turn two off basic Island and your first land. If your first land is a dual, then it's getting Wasted anyway regardless of what you fetch. If it's a basic Island then you opened with it in your hand, but most likely it's a Fetch. That's why I assumed you fetched double Island to avoid Wasteland.


Basic Plains is pretty miserable. Basic Forest lets you cast Tarmogoyf, which is fine, but you only need to do it once every game so I can't understand the need. I'd rather just have Islands; they go with everything (being able to Sower through Wasteland/Blood Moon is much more important than being able to Tarmogoyf through it).

Swords seems pretty huge against Dragon Stompy. So does Goyf as it answers 70% of their threats. If they land an early Magus, say turn 1, are you going to be glad that you can respond by fetching out an Island to cantrip or land CB or hope to hit a second Island and your two-of Sower, or are you going to be glad that you can respond by fetching a Forset to play that Goyf next turn?

I admit Plains is weaker, I'm used to running it in 4c to set Explosives to 3 and Swords under Moon effects. Also, basic Plains can be fetched off any of your 8 fetches if you go with 4 Heath and 4 Strand.

Anusien
04-23-2009, 01:52 PM
Swords seems pretty huge against Dragon Stompy. So does Goyf as it answers 70% of their threats. If they land an early Magus, say turn 1, are you going to be glad that you can respond by fetching out an Island to cantrip or land CB or hope to hit a second Island and your two-of Sower, or are you going to be glad that you can respond by fetching a Forset to play that Goyf next turn?
Well in BrassMan's maindeck, there are a total of 4 cards that can't be played with only Islands; I don't even both to answer Magus of the Moon. I'm going ot be glad I can fetch out an Island because it won't stop me at all. I can answer their Magus with Trinket Mage fetching Pithing Needle for Jitte/Slogger, and answer any problematic guys with 5 control magic effects I have. "Sure, have Magus. Force your big threat, play lands and get Sower to take your follow-up guy" is pretty hard to beat.

You really only want to run basics of a colored if you need to access them time and time again. UGW Thresh, which had 8-10 green creatures and relied on Swords to Plowshares for removal, needed those basics. This deck can laugh and play 90% of the game plan it wants to play with just Islands.

I'm pretty sure Daze is worse than Spell Snare in a deck that wants to have 5 mana available.

Misplayer
04-23-2009, 02:00 PM
@Anusien

I think we're talking about different decks. I was responding to johanessen's latest list. Probasco's deck is pretty different despite having many similar cards. It plays Ugx control more than the aggro-control style employed by builds like johanessen's and Nassif's and many current "Thresh" decks. While the line separating these archetypes is relatively thin, Probasco's resilient mana bases is one of the defining characteristics of the deck.

Anusien
04-23-2009, 02:49 PM
@Anusien

I think we're talking about different decks. I was responding to johanessen's latest list. Probasco's deck is pretty different despite having many similar cards. It plays Ugx control more than the aggro-control style employed by builds like johanessen's and Nassif's and many current "Thresh" decks. While the line separating these archetypes is relatively thin, Probasco's resilient mana bases is one of the defining characteristics of the deck.
Well yes, if you play bad cards you have to include more bad cards to accommodate them. I've yet to see any serious reason to deviate from one of the two lists other than customization for the sake of customization.

thefreakaccident
04-24-2009, 12:32 AM
Well yes, if you play bad cards you have to include more bad cards to accommodate them. I've yet to see any serious reason to deviate from one of the two lists other than customization for the sake of customization.

Isn't this from the guy who said that both dark confidant and swords to plowshares are bad?

Aj-capra
04-24-2009, 08:25 AM
Hi, I'm testing this list with reborn legal.

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
5 [ALA] Island (1)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [B] Volcanic Island
3 [B] Tropical Island
2 [B] Underground Sea
1 [ALA] Swamp (2)

// Creatures
3 [FD] Trinket Mage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [LRW] Sower of Temptation

// Spells
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [LRW] Ponder
1 [10E] Pithing Needle
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [CST] Brainstorm
3 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse <--- myabe smother too, but for cb cc=3 is better.

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 [7E] Duress
SB: 3 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt

I must put new vindicate for new snake,stalcker and dread. Oky there're sower but I think who new vindicate its good.

@edit : I can cut black for white :stp and vindicate in side, but in my metagame duress are good because there're 4/5 belcher/ant decks.

TheCramp
04-24-2009, 10:26 AM
What matchups besides Rock-like matchups that have Spiritmonger and Gensis do you actually want Swords to Plowshares against?

I was testing yesterday against Dredge. I was punishing myself and testing game one only to get a good idea of it. Without Swords its near fucking impossible. I MD jitti as well, so some times aceing a blocker and getting in there for 9 is the bomb. killing random confidants on the draw in the mirror/vs. black disruption. I really want to hear Andy's thoughts on why swords is the wrong card in 1.5, 'cause I'm sure his argument is sound. Anyone know if he posted them anywhere? I guess I should sleeve up his build and see what I think.

jeanbathez
04-24-2009, 10:31 AM
Well in BrassMan's maindeck, there are a total of 4 cards that can't be played with only Islands; I don't even both to answer Magus of the Moon.

@Anusien : Sorry, perhaps i'am getting things wrong, but aren't there 6 cards in the main (4 Tarmogoyf,2 Krosan Grip) ? I'am still very interested in this deck, so i read your comments exactly (also your articles !), because they are very helpful to understand this deck. So don't get me wrong, i don't wont to be pedantic :smile:

Anusien
04-24-2009, 11:16 AM
@Anusien : Sorry, perhaps i'am getting things wrong, but aren't there 6 cards in the main (4 Tarmogoyf,2 Krosan Grip) ? I'am still very interested in this deck, so i read your comments exactly (also your articles !), because they are very helpful to understand this deck. So don't get me wrong, i don't wont to be pedantic :smile:
Yes, 6. Whatever. The argument still holds. The deck is designed to run on lots of basic Islands. Unless I expect to go beatdown with 2 Tarmogoyfs in my hand or something, I don't counter Magus of the Moon.


Isn't this from the guy who said that both dark confidant and swords to plowshares are bad?
Yes, and I would play Probasco's exact maindeck (maybe 1 card change that he and I disagree on) pre-Alara Reborn. But if you have to netdeck, it's hard to make an argument netdecking against the deck the winner played.


I was testing yesterday against Dredge. I was punishing myself and testing game one only to get a good idea of it. Without Swords its near fucking impossible. I MD jitti as well, so some times aceing a blocker and getting in there for 9 is the bomb. killing random confidants on the draw in the mirror/vs. black disruption. I really want to hear Andy's thoughts on why swords is the wrong card in 1.5, 'cause I'm sure his argument is sound. Anyone know if he posted them anywhere? I guess I should sleeve up his build and see what I think.
So your argument is "With a completely other deck, sometimes running other cards is important?" Based on your comments, you've never actually tested Andy's list, so it seems disingenuous to say "Oh well Swords is right in his deck." I wouldn't run Jitte because I'm pretty sure in the matchups that count, having Sower/Shackles is more important. Yeah, Dredge can be a little rough game 1 against highly skilled players. You have a lot of relevant cards post-board, there aren't that many of them, and they play other decks. Yes, Swords to Plowshares is very good against things like Tombstalker and Spiritmonger, but Dredge and Evan Green or whatever aren't reasonable reasons to change the maindeck.

And yes, I've talked extensively to Andy about the deck, and his arguments against StP are basically like "It isn't necessary" and "It isn't worth messing up the mana." There aren't really any cards you want to to get rid of in the main deck.


So here's my question: why do people insist on customizing decks for the sake of customizing? It seems like a deck that was tuned and tested over two years (in the case of Andy's deck) that got second in a Grand Prix would be good enough. I really don't understand people's need to change cards without testing it and to try and argue that certain cards are wrong in the deck without ever having tried it. You keep trying to make it into something else that it's not. So saying, "I run X card because it makes Y card and Z card that also aren't in the list" seems so loose.

My point from before stands.

Nihil Credo
04-24-2009, 01:56 PM
Anusien, I agree that people often switch cards around without really having the experience or even the arguments necessary to back those changes. This does not include the reasonable people who test new cards while being aware that they're just testing.

But ipse dixit alone isn't a great argument in defence of a particular 75-card combination either. And it's particularly silly when you're using the finalist's placement to dismiss Swords to Plowshares and Dark Confidant while the winner of that same fucking tournament ran 4 StP and 4 Bobs. Your appeal to performance ends up turning 180 degrees and punching you in the face.

Gekoratel
04-24-2009, 02:59 PM
Yes, and I would play Probasco's exact maindeck (maybe 1 card change that he and I disagree on) pre-Alara Reborn. But if you have to netdeck, it's hard to make an argument netdecking against the deck the winner played.

Just out of curiousity what was the one card, and which cards from Alara do you see having an impact on the deck. The only one I could think of off the top of my head is Lorescale Coatl (+1/+1 counter on draw). The new Ophidian doesn't seem that exciting to me.

jeanbathez
04-24-2009, 03:35 PM
Yes, 6. Whatever. The argument still holds. The deck is designed to run on lots of basic Islands. Unless I expect to go beatdown with 2 Tarmogoyfs in my hand or something, I don't counter Magus of the Moon.
Thanks Anusien, i didn't want to discuss or criticize, i only wanted to know if i get you right to understand the deck and how to play it.My english isn't the best :smile:

Anusien
04-24-2009, 05:32 PM
But ipse dixit alone isn't a great argument in defence of a particular 75-card combination either. And it's particularly silly when you're using the finalist's placement to dismiss Swords to Plowshares and Dark Confidant while the winner of that same fucking tournament ran 4 StP and 4 Bobs. Your appeal to performance ends up turning 180 degrees and punching you in the face.
Look at it this way. I think Dark Confidant and Swords to Plowshares are both terrible and unnecessary. BrassMan went 2-1 on the whole against LSV.dec (beat LSV and Ocha, lost to Nassif). But if you want to run Swords to Plowshares and Dark Confidant, at least netdeck the right list. Don't take Brassdeck and add crappy cards to it, just play LSV.dec.

Nihil Credo
04-24-2009, 06:18 PM
Don't take Brassdeck and add crappy cards to it, just play LSV.dec.

... because LSV.dec is what, exactly? The main differences between the two decks boil down precisely to those "crappy cards": one runs Bob, Swords, and Daze, while the other runs Trinket+toolbox, Spell Snare, and two lands. Courtesy of SCG.com:

Maindeck Differences:
+4 Dark Confidant (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Dark+Confidant)
+3 Daze (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Daze)
+4 Swords To Plowshares (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Swords+To+Plowshares)
+2 Trygon Predator (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Trygon+Predator)
+3 Tundra (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Tundra)
+3 Underground Sea (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Underground+Sea)

-4 Island (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Island)
-1 Krosan Grip (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Krosan+Grip)
-1 Ponder (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Ponder)
-1 Sower Of Temptation (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Sower+Of+Temptation)
-2 Academy Ruins (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Academy+Ruins)
-1 Engineered Explosives (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Engineered+Explosives)
-1 Pithing Needle (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Pithing+Needle)
-3 Spell Snare (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Spell+Snare)
-3 Trinket Mage (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Trinket+Mage)
-2 Volcanic Island (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Volcanic+Island)

If you're saying people tend to run too few lands in CounterTop, I agree, but just straight up accusing them of perverting Saint Andrew's teachings* is ridiculous.

* sarcasm aimed at Brassman fanboyism, not Brassman himself, who has always looked to me like a cool guy and deserving of his success.

Atog
04-25-2009, 09:02 AM
Against a smart player you are never going to hit Loam. Leave Loam in the graveyard; dredge it with a cycling land and cast it immediately.

What you guys side in and off for loam matchup with probasco's list? I find there is plenty of cards to come in but not so many to take out. Shackles could come out, but then what? Grips for Grudges could work if there won't come Choke. But i also want get grave hate in g2 and possible g3. Also that needle and hydroblast from side is necessary against them. Any suggestions?

Anusien
04-25-2009, 11:55 AM
If you're saying people tend to run too few lands in CounterTop, I agree, but just straight up accusing them of perverting Saint Andrew's teachings* is ridiculous.

* sarcasm aimed at Brassman fanboyism, not Brassman himself, who has always looked to me like a cool guy and deserving of his success.
You seriously misunderstand Brass Man fanboyism. I've barned quite a few players in my day, and Brass Man is probably the best. You should try it. He goes out of his way to make his barns happy, which is something I can't say about other hulls.

Err. Seriousness. The last list we were discussing is johanessen's. He has StP and Daze and the Trinket Mage package and Trygon Predator and a lower number of cantrips (and 19 lands). It's very clearly intended to be some sort of "hybrid" between the two lists. So it has 19 lands without Bob to find more and with seven 3-drops and two 4-drops. It's very awkward. My point is that if you're going to play a 20 land deck, you probably need the Dark Confidants and whatnot. When you hybridize or change the lists, you're throwing away dozens of hours of work on the decks and ignoring significant design decisions. Like maybe LSV needs turn 2 Dark Confidant to help hit land #3 on turn 3. I'm not saying the lists are immutable: I disagree with about 2-3 cards in BrassMan's maindeck, they will need Alara Reborn updates, and I would at the very least cut the Trygon Predators from LSV.dec (by all reports they did nothing). But I think hybridizing them is pretty weak. It's not like Brass.dec was an unknown to LSV and co before the tournament. I know for a fact PV had the list, and it was his starting point. So every card that's in Brass.dec and not in LSV.dec is most likely a conscious decision by those guys.

Anusien
04-25-2009, 11:59 AM
What you guys side in and off for loam matchup with probasco's list? I find there is plenty of cards to come in but not so many to take out. Shackles could come out, but then what? Grips for Grudges could work if there won't come Choke. But i also want get grave hate in g2 and possible g3. Also that needle and hydroblast from side is necessary against them. Any suggestions?
What are you planning on Grudging? I'd look at going something like:
-1 Engineered Explosives
-2 Krosan Grip
-1 Pithing Needle
+1 Tormod's Crypt
+1 Relic of Progenitus
+2 Hydroblast

Fetching Needle or EE with Trinket Mage seems worse than just finding Crypt, so I'd rather have the grave hate. I can see the motivation for keeping in Needle stop a cycling land or Assault, but that logic has never been all that compelling to me. And you bring in the BEBs because the only guy you're really afraid of is Countryside Crusher. Really though your main plan is to win on Counterbalance; the other stuff is just secondary. So don't get too carried away with the grave hate. The matchup is honestly pretty good, so there's only so much sideboarding you can (or need) to do.

Atog
04-25-2009, 02:03 PM
What are you planning on Grudging? I'd look at going something like:
-1 Engineered Explosives
-2 Krosan Grip
-1 Pithing Needle
+1 Tormod's Crypt
+1 Relic of Progenitus
+2 Hydroblast

Fetching Needle or EE with Trinket Mage seems worse than just finding Crypt, so I'd rather have the grave hate. I can see the motivation for keeping in Needle stop a cycling land or Assault, but that logic has never been all that compelling to me. And you bring in the BEBs because the only guy you're really afraid of is Countryside Crusher. Really though your main plan is to win on Counterbalance; the other stuff is just secondary. So don't get too carried away with the grave hate. The matchup is honestly pretty good, so there's only so much sideboarding you can (or need) to do.

Those grudges are for Chalices, opponent needles and maybe even mox diamonds. Some games when opponent is in manascrew those grudges make them move to scoop-phase. Same about that needle, it that names that top im willing to get grid of that asap. I think those grips should stay in g2 too, just because that Choke and Needle. Or that EE should leave in for those Choke and Needle. That would serve even better maybe.

thefreakaccident
05-07-2009, 12:20 PM
lands//20
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
3 tundra
4 underground sea
4 tropical island
1 island

creatures//12
4 tarmogoyf
2 trygon predator
2 sower of temptation
4 dark confidant

spells//28
4 force of will
4 counterbalance
2 vedalken shackles
3 vindicate
4 daze
3 sensei's divining top
4 brainstorm
4 ponder


sideboard//
4 relic of progenitus
4 engineered plague
2 swords to plowshares
2 blue elemental blast
1 krosan grip
2 pernicious deed


This is my current list... please comment!

Ch@os
05-07-2009, 12:44 PM
No swords?
Is there no aggro based deck in your meta?
Zoo, Goblin, Eva Green, merfolk ...

A single cc3 answer like Vindicate or even slower Shackles can never do this.
Against what are you testing?

thefreakaccident
05-07-2009, 12:50 PM
My meta is primarily agro-control, stompy, combo, and control... pure agro got pushed out a long time ago here.

For agro though, you have sideboard options depending on the type:

deed/plague for merfolk = rape

BeB/plague for gobbos = rape

staff/plague for ichorid = rape

Preboard, the MUs aren't too terrible (well, ichorid is, but whatever), as you can slow down the game with goyfs/countermagic.... and then proceed to gain CA and board position while the board is clogged until you can start using their dudes for blocking and beat them down w/ goyfs...

Also, MD you need a way to deal w/ vial, and they can always kill a 2/2 pretty easily with incinerator... the vindicates give you options there.


Against stompy, you would much rather have the VCate, as it allows you to deal w/ equipment/crits/lands, which is really good to screw them over.


EDIT: Against eva green, you have CA/cantrips... and goyfs to block theirs, leaving them w/ hyppies and tombstalkers, which usually will not come out in the first two turns, unless they walk into daze.. but I am happy with that.

Atog
05-07-2009, 03:22 PM
lands//20
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
3 tundra
4 underground sea
4 tropical island
1 island

creatures//12
4 tarmogoyf
2 trygon predator
2 sower of temptation
4 dark confidant

spells//28
4 force of will
4 counterbalance
2 vedalken shackles
3 vindicate
4 daze
3 sensei's divining top
4 brainstorm
4 ponder


sideboard//
4 staff of progenitus
4 engineered plague
2 swords to plowshares
2 blue elemental blast
1 krosan grip
2 pernicious deed


This is my current list... please comment!

- 1x Ponder

+ 1x sensei's divining top

Do this need any explanations? Have you tested some list what plays 2-3 ponders? You just don't need more than 2, at max 3. You have plenty of shuffle effect in form of fetches so you won't need that from ponder. And your side, that "staff of progenitus" is there typo or don't i get some thing? I mean gathering don't find that card..

DireLemming
05-07-2009, 03:31 PM
@thefreakaccident why not switch Vindicate for Maelstrom Pulse and cut white completely? It's not like you have a consistent mana-denial strategy. Although since you are playing literally all the most common permanents the secondary effect might be occasionally problematic.

3eowulf
05-07-2009, 04:53 PM
@thefreakaccident why not switch Vindicate for Maelstrom Pulse and cut white completely? It's not like you have a consistent mana-denial strategy. Although since you are playing literally all the most common permanents the secondary effect might be occasionally problematic.

I tried it at BoM3:

// Lands
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Bayou

// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tombstalker

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Vedalken Shackles
3 Maelstrom Pulse

// SB
Don't remember but it sucked


I lost twice to canadian thresh: twice burned to death (g1/g1) and twice to early treaths that I couldn't stop even with countertop, active because my answers were forced and I couldn't find a blue pitch for my FoW (g2/g3).
Also lost once to tritons: vial, standstill, catcher, lordx2, reejery (g1) and revealing bad stuff (in random order 4xcounterbalance, 3x confidant, seeing no BS or top) with confidant while my opponent just plays a couple of fishes (g3).

When I got to draw the pulses they where good, all in all I never wished for them to be Vindicates.

thefreakaccident
05-09-2009, 10:20 AM
Do this need any explanations? Have you tested some list what plays 2-3 ponders? You just don't need more than 2, at max 3. You have plenty of shuffle effect in form of fetches so you won't need that from ponder. And your side, that "staff of progenitus" is there typo or don't i get some thing? I mean gathering don't find that card..

Sorry about the staff thing... it started as a joke and then became habit... its' an inside joke between me and my teammates... It's of coarse the relic of progenitus.


EDIT: The reason for Vindicate over pulse is simple: Other people play the permanents I play (i.e. goyfs/confidants/counterbalances)... I would often have a goyf on my side, and so would they, and I would rather just remove theirs than both.

Fossil4182
05-12-2009, 01:40 AM
I was reading Doug's new article on Legacy at SCG and came up with this. If you haven't read the article, it talks about Lorescale Coatl's potential impact on the format as well as the cards that are likely to see play to deal with it. My thoughts on how to deal with Coatl's and Goyfs aside (Banning!!! J/K :-), it did get me thinking about the board answers to Goyf and Coatl that are becoming somewhat problematic. Doug suggests that the following will see more play as the value and play of these creatures increase:

Sower, Shackles, Control Magic, Submerge and Threads. He also suggests Mind Harness, but I would be less worried about that as a resolved Counterbalance will more than likely be the answer to that. However, the rest of the suggested threats are outside of the traditional counter curve and even though the deck runs several cards that fit that curve, odds are you're not going to reliably reveal something with a 3 or 4 casting cost. Thus, I'm going to try this maindeck (maybe board...)

Kira, Great Glass-Spinner

Its interesting to say the least. I posted a while back about switching Trygon to Vendilion Clique and I've been very happy in my playing with that card. However, looking at my current meta, the suto duress effect is good, however more and more Threshold and Counterbalance decks are emerging as well as a few eva green players and I fear the sideboard tech suggest by Doug will become more common rather than the exception. Thus, I'd propose using Kira as an alternative to Clique or Trygon given its utility. This card shuts down most decks ability to destroy creatures because they don't have enough spells to kill them or they have to commit such an unusual amount of resources that it becomes cost prohibitive to remove/steal a creature. Additionally, Kira is great because it also counters abilities meaning it stops a Shackle or Sower from stealing the target. Plus, it does have evasion which can be helpful.

Just some food for thought. I'll post back some results after I give it a few tries.

aTn
05-13-2009, 01:26 PM
This card shuts down most decks ability to destroy creatures because they don't have enough spells to kill them or they have to commit such an unusual amount of resources that it becomes cost prohibitive to remove/steal a creature. Additionally, Kira is great because it also counters abilities meaning it stops a Shackle or Sower from stealing the target. Plus, it does have evasion which can be helpful.

In particular, it offers an additionnal way to protect you Sower(s) (the other way being via CB-Top or counters).

I think it's a valid suggestion and I can't really dismiss it without having tested it.

Team-Hero
05-13-2009, 07:12 PM
Here's the deck that I have been tweaking and just recently played a variant of at a local small tournament. It's basically NLU changed up to my meta/liking:

LANDS: 22
2 Forest
4 Island
1 Plains
3 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windwept Heath

CREATURES: 13
4 Lorescale Coatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Looter il-Kor
1 Trygon Predator

OTHER SPELLS:
2 Jace Beleren
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Sensei's Divine Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
2 Krosan Grip

Notes:
Consider running one more Jitte because it's just that good with the shadows. I would like to give Lorescale flying via Wonder, but might be too clunky.

Thoughts?

Atog
05-14-2009, 03:25 AM
Here's the deck that I have been tweaking and just recently played a variant of at a local small tournament. It's basically NLU changed up to my meta/liking:

LANDS: 22
2 Forest
4 Island
1 Plains
3 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windwept Heath

CREATURES: 13
4 Lorescale Coatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Looter il-Kor
1 Trygon Predator

OTHER SPELLS:
2 Jace Beleren
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Sensei's Divine Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
2 Krosan Grip

Notes:
Consider running one more Jitte because it's just that good with the shadows. I would like to give Lorescale flying via Wonder, but might be too clunky.

Thoughts?

2x Counterbalance?! Any particular reason to running only 2? You could start cutting Jaces of and adding couple counterbalance in their slots. Have there been situation where you needed 2x basic forest? I'm just thinking that may screw your manabase too much, so one would be enought. What your meta is look like, because you don't run Shackles either? You said that list is tuned for you metagame, but i still believe you want to run 4x counterbalances..

Team-Hero
05-14-2009, 03:47 AM
2x Counterbalance?! Any particular reason to running only 2? You could start cutting Jaces of and adding couple counterbalance in their slots. Have there been situation where you needed 2x basic forest? I'm just thinking that may screw your manabase too much, so one would be enought. What your meta is look like, because you don't run Shackles either? You said that list is tuned for you metagame, but i still believe you want to run 4x counterbalances..

I don't own Shackles... so it never really crossed my mind to add them. My meta is ZERO aggro. Everything is Aggro/Control and Control. No combo or aggro. I like Counterbalance but people are just ready for that. Meddling Mage comes down... first thing they name is Counterbalance. I just find that most people are prepared for it. But fear not, your comment is not ignored. I have 2x Counterbalance in my sideboard, making a total of 4x possible if needed. I'll cut the forest and add another island.

Atog
05-14-2009, 04:03 AM
I don't own Shackles... so it never really crossed my mind to add them. My meta is ZERO aggro. Everything is Aggro/Control and Control. No combo or aggro. I like Counterbalance but people are just ready for that. Meddling Mage comes down... first thing they name is Counterbalance. I just find that most people are prepared for it. But fear not, your comment is not ignored. I have 2x Counterbalance in my sideboard, making a total of 4x possible if needed. I'll cut the forest and add another island.

If they name / play meddling mage you should try counter that if possible / StoP that. I would too think are those Looter il-Kors necessary. I would put those counterbalances and couple Sowers on their slots. You said that your meta has only aggro-control/control, but still those both usually run tarmogoyf or similar what you can steal with sower. What your sideboard looks like?

Ka0z
05-14-2009, 05:21 AM
I like Counterbalance but people are just ready for that. Meddling Mage comes down... first thing they name is Counterbalance. I just find that most people are prepared for it. But fear not, your comment is not ignored. I have 2x Counterbalance in my sideboard, making a total of 4x possible if needed. I'll cut the forest and add another island.

I think you run low on some sort of counterspells, be it daze or spell snare. Spell snare is a very good option for those awkward cards like meddling mage. I am not sold on the looter. Do they really give so much card quality in short time, that you can justify running it about ponders #3 and maybe #4?
You idea about wonder is difficult to achieve. If you are playing wonder, you don't play more than 1. But to get it into the grave, you have to stick an looter and draw the 1 of. you want 1 card in the grave and have got only 4 options to accomplish that.

But to another topic. How do you like lorescale coatl? Is it such a good addition. I am planing to play 1-2 but i don't know what to cut out. My version of NLU is the same as Probasco's list. Does also someone know, what 1-3 cards Anusien want to change, he wrote about it some plages before.

Gekoratel
05-14-2009, 10:09 AM
Yeah I was wondering about the 3 card difference myself, honestly most of the innovations have seemed worse than the original list IMO, I'd rather see something with a couple small tweaks than a brand new version of NLU.

gamegeek2
05-14-2009, 12:15 PM
This thread really needs a better name. CounterTop, Next Level Blue, Legacy Blue, somethin like that.

Jeet
05-14-2009, 01:54 PM
I've been running this list lately and it's been pretty successful so far. Here it is:

// Lands
4 [A] Island (1)
4 [A] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [A] Tropical Island

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [ARB] Lorescale Coatl

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [NE] Daze
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [FD] Trinket Mage
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [ALA] Executioner's Capsule
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [A] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [IA] Hydroblast

I'm trying not to splash white only for swords since black has removal as well. I'm not so sure about Maelstrom Pulse but it's been good up to now. It dodges counterbalance most of the time and kills annoying stuff like Moat, Tombstalker, Shackles, etc. The downside is that you don't want to use it if you have a permanent with the same name.

About Ponder, I see no reason to play 4. It helps find answers when you need them including an early Top or Counterbalance.

Lorescale Coatl has also been great so far since I can protect it with 10 counterspells and Counterbalance. It finishes games fast as it is usually bigger than Tarmogoyf. It gets huge with the 12 draw spells I'm running.

The curve for Counterbalance is 15 1cc, 15 2cc, 6 3cc and has been good.

Do you think the loss of Sower and Shackles is important? Sower is easily taken care of with all the spot removal every deck runs and Shackles can be really slow especially if you can't get your land drops in time.

majikal
05-14-2009, 02:10 PM
You must not have any aggro in your meta to not run Swords. I find the 1cc to be invaluable. Sower I find to be subpar -- it's really strange actually. It seems it would be very good with all the Goyfs and Tombstalkers and Coatls running around, but at the same time everyone is kind of going crazy with the removal at the moment, so you more than likely won't get one to stick.

I'm sticking to 2x Shackles currently and it's been great so far. I'm running 20 lands in my build, and between Top, BS, Ponder, and Bob I hardly ever miss a land drop until I've hit 4-5 lands.

Here's my list:

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
3x Lorescale Coatl
2x Vendilion Clique (although Kira, Great Glass-spinner seems really good here)
2x Vedalken Shackles

4x Brainstorm
2x Ponder
4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Counterbalance
4x Force of Will
3x Daze
4x Swords to Plowshares

4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
4x Underground Sea
3x Tropical Island
3x Tundra
2x Island

Team-Hero
05-14-2009, 03:18 PM
My SB is:
2 Counterbalance
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Dueling Grounds
1 Propaganda
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress (for Merfolk and Faries)
1 Spell Snare
2 Annul
2 OPEN

I like how the Looters work for me. They ping the opponent early while making my Lorescales bigger. They also ditch cards I do not need. I want to squeeze in an extra Jitte just for them. The Lorescales, for me, are just that good. Most of the time I wish my Tarmogoyf was a Lorescale. I've attacked several times with an 8/8 through 12/12 Lorescale on it's first combat swing.

Lorescale 2/2: Attack with Looter.
Lorescale 3/3: Draw. Use Top to draw. Use Brainstorm. Cast Jace, draw.
Attack with a 9/9 Lorescale, end turn with a 10/10.

If you get the Top engine going, it helps too. The Lorescale IS good. People I've played against can vouch that they rather deal with a Tarmogoyf than with Lorecale.

But I am going to try to squeeze in at least another Counterbalance and 2 Shackles, once I get them, in the deck.

from Cairo
05-14-2009, 03:37 PM
This thread really needs a better name. CounterTop, Next Level Blue, Legacy Blue, somethin like that.

Next Level Blue (NLU) and Baseruption are the names I hear it referred to most as. I wouldn't pick anything new that just seems like it would be even more confusing.

Also I agree with Gekoratel, most of these new "innovations" seem worse than the Chicago lists.

Enigma
05-14-2009, 10:44 PM
GP versions are really CB-hated oriented. In a more aggro meta, I would change those lists for sure.

P-M

Sage
05-15-2009, 04:06 PM
GP versions are really CB-hated oriented. In a more aggro meta, I would change those lists for sure.

P-M

Would you mind elaborating on the changes you would make to Probasco's/Nassif's lists for an aggro meta?

Gekoratel
05-15-2009, 04:11 PM
I don't know what kind of drastic changes would be made to the deck for an aggro meta but I could see cutting the 2 Krosan Grip for spot removal in the form of Lightning Bolt. But if Goblins is a large portion of that aggro meta Krosan Grip is pretty solid in that matchup since its hard to beat an active Vial. In the board you get access to Firespout and BEBs so which should help turn out the aggro matchup substantially.

jimirynk
05-15-2009, 04:29 PM
What type of aggro?
Brassmans MD is pretty strong vs. the aggro matchup besides merfolk..

Taurelin
05-15-2009, 05:45 PM
What type of aggro?
Brassmans MD is pretty strong vs. the aggro matchup besides merfolk..

Actually, I find Goblins, for example, a rather challenging MU with Brassman's deck, at least pre-board. You have no answer to Lackey apart from FoW (which you don't always have). G2 and 3 it becomes much better with Firespout, but only if they don't play / if you can shut down Wasteland.

If you play in an aggro-heavy environment, wouldn't Firespout be maindeck material, possibly instead of 2 Grip, 1 Needle? Or at least some more copies of EE could be handy.

jimirynk
05-15-2009, 06:42 PM
I had 1 ee extra in the board for a while but I decided against it.
I agree firespout is good.
but you just said you don't have an answer for turn one lackey and firespout doesn't really help that.
I say know on cutting the needle from the md their is always a time in a game were your going to wish you had it in, plus its a good turn 1 answer to their turn 1 vial.
Just remember brassmans list is so strong due to its topdecking+counter top strength.
Don't weaken the deck with bad top deck spells.
I will post more in some time I have to go pickup my gf.pc

Btw this is the list I ran for a sapphire and went undefeated untill I gave the win in t8 to my teammate who won the torn.
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=25624

Taurelin
05-15-2009, 07:02 PM
but you just said you don't have an answer for turn one lackey and firespout doesn't really help that.

Well, Firespout answers a 3rd turn army. And sometimes that really helps.

Additionally, Firespout is not only good vs Goblins, but against other aggro decks as well, obviously.


Don't weaken the deck with bad top deck spells.


I won't. But depending on the meta, a Grip might be a worse top deck than creature removal.


I say know on cutting the needle from the md their is always a time in a game were your going to wish you had it in,

Agreed!


Btw this is the list I ran

Err, looks pretty much identical to the original list to me. Which is perfect, of course! :smile:

blueneverfails
05-17-2009, 11:39 AM
This is the list I'm running, is pretty much the same as Mr. GP Chicago winner. The only difference is my meta is not countertop heavy(which means me and maybe 1 other person will have countertop) So I decided to take out the predators(hardest thing I've done since the day I left affinity.) and the single krosan grip to try out 3 lorescale coatl's and soooo far I have loved it, there has been many times where I would prefer Coatl over goyf, and the only reason it hasn't replaced it yet is because it costs three and plus I can run both.


2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
4 Tarmogoyf
3 lorescale coatl
2 Sower of Temptation
4 Dark Confidant
4 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island
4 Flooded Strand

Sideboard
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Engineered Plague
1 Energy Flux
1 Darkblast
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Perish
1 Planar Void
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Threads of Disloyalty

I'm still messin with the sideboard, I've tried to put logic beside and work with this but, I truly just don't understand it. But I'm trying


Personally I love shackles(moving from ITF to this) and would never take them out or go down to 1. The one thing I would like to do is stick in 1 more ponder somewhere for more consistancy, but hey I can't have everything:tongue: What do you guys think?

Anusien
05-17-2009, 12:07 PM
My problem with Coatl and similar things is that they can't block Piledriver. What about maindeck Firespout instead?

aTn
05-17-2009, 12:35 PM
Additionally, Firespout is not only good vs Goblins, but against other aggro decks as well, obviously.

In my opinion, Firespout is not that hot against Merfolk (and Enigma and I have been playing that MU since GP: Chicago). Knowing you're going to board Firesoupt in, the Merfolk player can board in BEB and you'll have to go through a counter-wall before you get to resolve it.

Matters get even worse when you replace Merfolk with the new Wizards deck (i.e. they play tons of daze effects which basically make Firespout not so hot).

In all these match-ups, I think the deck could benefit from spot removal.

From my point of view, Brassmann NLU was built to wreck CB-decks, so if your meta shifts to contain more Merfolk, etc. and less CB, I think it's time to modify the list (in particular some MD choices like 2 x Grip). I say this based on experience, i.e. having played Brassmann's list each week in 25+ player Legacy tournaments and playtesting, I noticed my results went drifting when the meta in my area shifted to more Merfolks, less Threshold, more Elves, more UW-Landstill, etc..



My problem with Coatl and similar things is that they can't block Piledriver. What about maindeck Firespout instead?

I was actually thinking about it (maybe -2 Grip, +2 Firespout), but I'd rather have spot removal (I'll test it anyhow).

blueneverfails
05-17-2009, 12:37 PM
unless I'm reading firespout wrong, why would I want to add red into the deck when there are already 4 colors? Personally I think that is crazy. There has to be a lot better options than adding red, and if your going to do that, just run pyroclasm.

aTn
05-17-2009, 12:52 PM
unless I'm reading firespout wrong, why would I want to add red into the deck when there are already 4 colors? Personally I think that is crazy. There has to be a lot better options than adding red, and if your going to do that, just run pyroclasm.

We are talking about Brassman's list which plays red. I'm currently doing a split between Firespout and Pyroclasm in the board. Pyroclasm is not that good sometimes because Elves and Merfolk play lords (and other guys, in the case of Elves) which boost their creatures out of pyro range.

Nihil Credo
05-17-2009, 01:35 PM
From the last DTBF update:


A second important change involves how Threshold decks are counted; in the last year the archetype has evolved to the point that the old categorisation by their splash colour (or lack thereof) makes little sense.

Today, the one clear split is between decks packing the maindeck Counterbalance/Top combination and those favouring an aggressive, tempo-driver approach with Daze, Stifle, and Wasteland. The latter decks are quite well established, with only a few secondary choices being discussed (mostly additional threats such as Dreadnought or Alara Reborn creatures) and splashing exclusively either Red or Black.

Counterbalance decks, on the other side, exist in a continuum, from the classic Mongoose builds to the Chicago lists to those incorporating additional tricks (Survival, Natural Order, etc.); they also exist in pretty much every possible colour combination that includes Blue and Green, from two to four colours.
If some clear division in approaches emerges, this will eventually be adopted in both thread organisation and tournament tallies. For the time being, all CounterTop decks that do not fall into any established category, i.e. that follow the game plan of "establish the Balance soft-lock and play good creatures", will get dumped into one format-leading cauldron.

In accordance with the above, this thread is being locked and will eventually be archived. You may continue your discussion in either the CounterTop thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13716) or the Tempo Thresh (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13715) thread, as appropriate.