[Deck] Next Level Painter

[jazzykat]

This deck is directly inspired by EPIC painter, NLU Nassif, and NLU Probasco. My design goal was to have a good game against good decks in the format as well as every random deck. The trade-off would be that I wouldn't have any great matchups just a good fighting chance. Furthermore, the really good decks that are designed to beat other really good decks (like TA) don't work in my metagame. People play Burn, Astral Slide, Random Aggro, Homebrew Counter/Top, Tribal, etc. so I needed something less optimized for a field of CB/Top+Tarmogoyf. I was further inspired to work on this deck after Probasco said in his interview that Painter/Grind ignores aggro and that his deck initially had a Painter/Grind slant.

This started from EPIC painter. My biggest issue with EPIC painter was, I needed to stop being beaten down and comboing out wasn't always fast enough (Especially now that everyone and their brother are playing Grip. Thus I put in Goyf and Shackles MD. We learned from the GP that 4/4 CB/Top was tech even with trinket mages so the top count was upped.

In my experience the CA provided by CB/Top was so dominant, and the fact that I always wanted an extra land or 2 made me decide to push up the land count to 20 and it has been working fine.

I kept it 3 colors so I can support 4 basic lands. More testing may show that I can cut a Sea and/or a Tropical to sneak in a Volcanic (like Probasco did) to play Firespout from the board and REB for that matter.

As you can imagine a pile of good cards can often win and I often feel frustrated with a painter or grindstone on their own so I'm not sure if playing 4 of each is correct because a Tarmogoyf kills pretty quick too.

The biggest issue you all should immediately notice is that there is no spot removal (well swords because that is really the only thing worth running anymore, except for maybe Snuff Out).

You can play this 1 of two ways you can just be wreckless and drop Tarmogoyf, Confidant, Painter and Grindstone onto the field and basically try to out threat your opponent, combo out or play a bit more conservatively and try to protect your combo with CB out.

The board is in a serious state of Flux right now but if you have any unique suggestions that would be cool.

Lastly, I realize this deck is very few cards off from a lot of decks so if a mod wants to stick it in NLU, or ITF,UGb Thresh or EPIC Painter I understand but please just don't troll up the thread telling me this.



// Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [A] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [A] Underground Sea
5 [5E] Island (3)

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
3 [TE] Grindstone
3 [LRW] Ponder
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [CS] Counterbalance

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [BOK] Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
SB: 4 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [FNM] Duress
SB: 2 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle

[Nightmare]

In all honesty, the list looks pretty good. I'd probably cut a Grindstone for a third Ponder, or an Executioner's Capsule, though.

In the board, what are you bouncing with ETruth that isn't handled by Grip or by EE? It seems like a wasted slot.

[klaus]

In all honesty, the list looks pretty good. I'd probably cut a Grindstone for a third Ponder, or an Executioner's Capsule, though.
I'd actually replace one with a Needle.
-
Also SB: -2 Truth, +1 Grip, +1 BEB.
...
or -3 BEB
+3 Plague?

[deadlock]

What does make Executioner's Capsule superior to EE?
Third Ponder sounds good though.

Consider Llawan, Cephalid Empress as sideboard option foremost against Merfolk, but with Painter it comes handy against many decks.

No counterspell beside FoW makes me cry a little, besides this props on the list. If you want to test drop a pm.

[Nightmare]

What does make Executioner's Capsule superior to EE?
It doesn't blow up your stuff, and still kills Goyf.

[jazzykat]

In all honesty, the list looks pretty good. I'd probably cut a Grindstone for a third Ponder, or an Executioner's Capsule, though.

In the board, what are you bouncing with ETruth that isn't handled by Grip or by EE? It seems like a wasted slot.

I was always uncomfortable with so many Grindstones main,thus the ponder/Grind Substitute sounds really good as this deck would love to find CB/Top ASAP. Pithing needle may be right also.

I think that Executioner's Capsule is cool but it only hits 1 really big problem dude: Tarmogoyf (some would say this is enough), the other 2 guys Confidant (Seeing even more play lately) and Tombstalker are not hittable. In a perfect meta I think this would be the right call because you can hit it easily or shuffle it away almost as easily.

WRT Capsule vs. EE: Nightmare hit the nail directly on the head. Since you play a ton of 2 and even some 1 drops it is almost certain that you are going to lose something.

However, I <3 enginerred explosives.



This needs to be tested, or perhaps a metagame audible? For me, given the number of wastelands and vials I am partial to the needle.

Echoing Truth: It's just a catch all that answers a fast tombstalker. Submerges may be better. I'm really open to suggestion in the board.

@ Llawan, Cephalid Empress: I had to look this card up. This shit is LOL funny with painter and if you get up to 4 mana vs. merfolk they should effectively shit themselves.

@SB Plagues: I would love to fit them, but I REALLY need to have BEBs vs. all the red.

Edit: Does anyone see a way to shave a dual land out for either a Volcanic or another Island?

[Nightmare]

I would cut the ETruths for more blasts. Painter on Red, dude. Painter on Red.

[Jak]

Lim-Dul's Vault? It works amazing at finding the missing piece, it is a hard counter with Counterbalance (usually), and it fits your colors.

[jazzykat]

@Moar Blasts: I dig it. What would be helluva funny would be to splash red and play REBs too.

@Lim Dul's Vault: Part of EPIC painter and truly useful, sorta, didn't like it...
My feelings are mixed. Sometimes I'm like hey this is RAD. Other times I'm like wow, where's my FOW to pitch this crap to. With 4 CB and Confidant, it could save a lot of pain and suffering.

I'm wanting to enter the cool things zone so badly by cutting the swamp and adding a volcanic, and 1 Reb Main. With painter it is the 1 mana answer to anything without split second MB.

When I play this deck, I can't help but think how irrelevant having removal is when I'm just winning.

[Nightmare]

@Moar Blasts: I dig it. What would be helluva funny would be to splash red and play REBs too.

@Lim Dul's Vault: Part of EPIC painter and truly useful, sorta, didn't like it...
My feelings are mixed. Sometimes I'm like hey this is RAD. Other times I'm like wow, where's my FOW to pitch this crap to. With 4 CB and Confidant, it could save a lot of pain and suffering.

I'm wanting to enter the cool things zone so badly by cutting the swamp and adding a volcanic, and 1 Reb Main. With painter it is the 1 mana answer to anything without split second MB.

When I play this deck, I can't help but think how irrelevant having removal is when I'm just winning.

Remember, you can name colors that aren't blue. There's no reason to splash red for REB if you just name red with Painter, and MD BEB. Blowing up Goyfs with Blue Blast is some good, by the way.

[jazzykat]

I know this is called painter, but the 2 slot is so clogged in this deck, I'm seriously considering putting 1 in the board... any thoughts?

[freakish777]

Remember, you can name colors that aren't blue.

But if you name blue, you can do stupid things like play Merchant Scroll to grab REB, and Pitch Painter #2 to Force of Will...


(yes, I've tried this, no, you shouldn't play Merchant Scroll in Legacy)

[Moczoc]

Hi, I'm working on a similar list since a few days. It startet when I added Painter+Grindstone to my Cephalid Breakfast and kicked Cephalid out because it was too vulnerable.

My list:

Creatures
3 Looter il-Kor
3 Trygon Predator
4 Painter's Servant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Trinket Mage

Spells
1 Fabricate
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
2 Grindstone
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
9 Island
1 Forest
4 Tropical Island
2 Flooded Strand


SB
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Back to Basics
1 Pithing Needle
2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
2 Primeval Light
2 Krosan Grip
4 Daze


- I don't like making the manabase more vulnerable for Dark Confidant, after all, it's just a 2/1 that draws some cards and steals your lifepoints. Losing lifepoints will make the game end faster and decrease your chance to assemble the combo. At the moment I'm trying Looter-il Kor, he can discard all the cards you only need 1 time in the early game and lands in the lategame. And he is great with Jitte.
- Jitte: It's good with evasion creatures and makes all these half-vanilla creatures like Servant and Trinket acutally put some pressure on the opponent.
- Trygon Predator: Eats Pithing Needle on Grindstone .. and the opponents Counterbalance
- Basic to Basics: Maybe this should even be maindeck. replace 2 Tropicals with Islands?
- Daze: I added it for the combo-matchup, but maybe 2 are enough or Mana Maze could be better in this slot.

:cool:

[jazzykat]

@Moczoc: I respectfully disagree about the manabase and confidant. If confidant comes down you normally overwhelm your opponent. The life you lose to confidant is often far outweighed by the fact that you are outdrawing your opponent 2:1.

Also, I think there is a fairly strong consensus on playing 8 fetches to maximize the power of top.

I have also wanted to put Jitte in,but haven't seen a slot.

[jazzykat]

Just an update. I've been testing online and have so far been undefeated in matches. Has anyone else had such positive results? If not, what have been your problem cards/matchups?

[thickasabrick]

Isn't it worth running -1 Island, +1 Seat of the Synod in case you need to grab mana off of Trinket Mage?

[Nightmare]

Isn't it worth running -1 Island, +1 Seat of the Synod in case you need to grab mana off of Trinket Mage?

No.

[TheAardvark]

This looks really close to the list someone won (well, split with me) a local event with last weekend. Only difference I can see are slightly different mana and I don't recall seeing Ponder. Otherwise, it's about the same. It seemed good enough with only 4 counters; I had 12 post-SB (in the Swiss) and still got comboed out on turn 4. So, yeah.

[jazzykat]

So I've updated the top of the thread with my newest list. I've looked at some of the SB suggestions that Moczoc has and they are really cool...mana maze... Primeval Light (Probably the coolest card I've seen in a long time).

Having 4 Painter in the deck continues to be somewhat annoying but the Ponder makes for not drawing a million of them and also finding the missing Grindstone.

My SB is really still up in the air. I really think it has to reflect your metagame, but the echoing truths definitely needed to be cut. I'm not really sure if the BEB's should be a 4 of, but I feel that you are more than justified for bringing them in against anything with a splash of red because with a Painter out you just own them.

The Kiras are experimental right now because I think the card is incredible but in practice I haven't got it to fit right. I've also been playing around with Sower in case I run into goyf.

In conclusion I think the deck's success in testing is that every single creature that you drop has to be answered NOW (with the exception of trinket mage, but he does get Grindstone, or Top, or....).

Goyf stalls the ground, and can even go on the attack.
Confidant burries your opponent in real CA
Painter makes it so that any time you have a main phase and 4 mana up you can drop a grindstone and win. -Strangely, he also blocks a lot of strange things in a race.

While I'm flattered that so many people are telling me how cool the deck is, I'm more concerned with if there are any weak cards and what matchups need shoring up.

[jazzykat]

I 5-0'ed a local tourney. I finally lost a game in the finals. Report to follow tomorrow.

[Brushwagg]

Have you tried Fabricate in the Trinket Mage slot? They cast the same but Fabricate can get you Painter along with your other artifacts. You do lose the body of the Mage but being able to get everything is a plus. I play it when I play Epic Painter.

[jazzykat]

@Brushwagg:
A fabricate or multiple fabricates? I've considered putting 1 in for a painter's servant. However, the more I play with it, the more it just works by blocking a weeny, being an annoying attacker, sitting at the all important 2 slot for counterbalance and being another must answer critter. Fabricate also grabs a Vedalken Shackles.

Have you given up on Lim Dul's Vault as well?

If we are going to rock Fabricate is there another really awesome artifact we may want to play as a 1 of?

[jazzykat]

A quick and dirty tournament report titled: "How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb". As many of you would surmise I am a massive fan of the film: "Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb" but more on that later.

[Philosophical Sidebar]NLPainter (which the mods have let me have my own thread for, instead of putting into any numerous threads) came out of my stubbon beligerence as a control player, having the need to deal with every single random/non-random deck in the format and going nuts trying to do it. I mean, you can only play so many Vindicates in a deck, deed sucks vs. AdNT, and I don't really want to force of will a Kird Ape... I used to win my local tournament of ~20-40 people every week! Now I was lucky to pull out 1 win a month. I needed a solution...(I'm not sure if this is it, because they do generally bring hate for the last deck that won the tournament the last week)

When I first threw the cards to together for NLPainter it was with a fatalistic mindset that I accepted people are going to play cards and do things I can't stop. Furthermore, they were going to have strategies that I may not have prepared for. Also in my head was the famous line by Flores that I'm going to horribly paraphrase "There Are no incorrect threats, just incorrect answers". In much the same manner as the "key to winning a nuclear war"...striking first, I decided that I'm just going to play the cards that win first. The difference though is unlike dedicated combo I didn't go "all in" on any one strategy. I just decided to have more and bigger "bombs" than just about anything out there.
[/Philosophical Sidebar]
OK, here's the quick report

Deck List:
// Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [A] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [A] Underground Sea
5 [5E] Island (3)

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
3 [TE] Grindstone
2 [LRW] Ponder
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [CS] Counterbalance
1 [10E] Pithing Needle

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Trygon Predator
SB: 4 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [FNM] Duress
SB: 2 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives

R1 vs. Mike with MBC
G1: I'm on the play, he lands first turn arena, I land second turn Confidant followed by third turn Tarmogoyf. He rips my hand apart and manages to kill my confidant, but my Tarmogoyf rips him apart.
G2: He's on the play: He tries for a first turn Hippie which I force. I play dudes which he slaughters as he builds up mana. Before things get out of hand painter/grindstone end the game.

1-0, 2-0

R2 vs. Joe Joe with Fires
G1: He plays big dudes quickly as I finally get a Tarmogoyf down to clog the ground up with low life. Counterbalance/Top is also down to stop burn but Blastoderms and Skizziks are not stoppable with my early CB. I have to chump with a painter and confidant. I play conservatively leave mana open after landing a timely shackles which first jacks his Skizzik, then his birds. I continue to resolve dudes so the ground is completely clogged up, and I win with painter/grind.

G2: Starts out sort of slow for both of us. He tries to play damping matrix while I had Top and Shackles out (WTF!) and I force. The next turn he sticks a blood moon and I'm internally praising God for the creation of the basic island for which I have 2 in play and wind up topping into a third. He winds up playing a 3/1 Kavu with Flash and Haste, which I am able to steal. I land CB in the meantime and he plays no big dudes so I start beating on him with his own creature. He resolves a skizzik without kicks to take me down lower and I finally paitner/grind him out despite his multiple attempts to burn my painter.
2-0, 4-0

R3 vs. Person with Esper
This deck has a bunch of artifact type things, Master of Etherium and Cranial Plating, so think of it as a jank UW affinity.
G1: He plays dudes a few with death touch :(, I play Tarmogoyf...hardly fair I think. I beat him down with goyf until out of the blue painter/grind assembles and we move on to game 2.
G2: He gets stuck on 1 land. I assembly counter/top and grind him out as soon as I could so he didn't have to languish in frustration.
3-0, 6-0

R4: vs. Alex with LEDless Dredge
G1: A very long affair. He plays VERY slow. So I play very slow after the first 5 turns as I had plenty of guys and pulled an EE with a trinket mage to destroy his first big offensive, along with a painter, a DC, and a Tarmogoyf to not only hold down the fort but go in the yard to break bridges. Counterbalance/Top came down to ensure that all he was able to do was dredge. After ~40 minutes (I know this is pathetic considering I should have lost quickly) I find 1 of my damn grindstones and help him put the rest of his deck in the Graveyard...
G2: He mulls to 5, and I mull to six. I have grave hate in this time so a quick victory is nigh impossible...TIE
4-0, 7-0-1

R5: vs. Derek with Mono-W Martyr Control (extended budget deck?) w/scrying sheets and some Quinn cards...
Derek is a good friend of mine and the best magic player I have ever known. He wins with bad decks and wins even more with good decks. I offer the draw and he accepts, even though my painter combo obviously beats MWC I never imagined how hard it would be...

We decide to play for the first place prize, but draw officially.
G1: He nukes my board millions of times. I play painter grind in 1 turn, and then find my pithing needle to stop his Mistveil Plains (WTF!!!) the turn before his Eternal Dragon would kill me.
G2: I side out my shackles and 1 Goyf for Grave hate. Mistveil planes consternates me, the Tarmogoyf beat down fails, painters are swordsed, and my board gets wiped many times...I lose. Kataki War's Wage was also thrown in there for good measure against me.
G3: I side out my FoW's for BEB's, ready for the EPIC "Painter Red Dude" play. With lots of back and forth and controlling his graveyard "Painter Red Dude" came down. With that I destroyed, an Eternal Dragon and Mistveil Plains which where both RFG'ed. I then spent the next half an hour trying to find a grindstone to win the game.
5-0, 9-1-1

Props: "Painter Red Dude" the audible that is actually fucking awesome! Who needs Force of Will anyway!
Derek most fun and best opponent always, whether I win or lose.

Slops: My metagame for having antagonistic and whiney scrubs who don't want to pay for better prize support.

If I were to play this tomorrow (and I would, without reservation) I would go:

-1 Trinket Mage +1 Fabricate
-1 Pithing Needle +1 Ponder

You have to metagame the board. The only cards that I feel are set in stone are: 2 BEBS, 2 Grips, and 2 Tormods. The rest of the board is up to you.

[jazzykat]

I won another tournament tonight 4-0. I only dropped 1 game to merfolk. Report to follow.

[Brushwagg]

A fabricate or multiple fabricates?

I pretty much cut all the Trinket Mages in Epic Painter. I think Fabricate is better in this version since it can get you every artifact you run.

@Vault: I've never not liked having it. It finds what you need.

Good to see you having some sucess.

[Mystical_Jackass]

What if someone first turn chalice's, or bloodmoon/chokes you? How does this deck deal with that.. lose? Also.. lotta mana correction, most players I play are like auto 4x wastelands. My friend runs a pretty effective mono-white painter, is 100% nonbasics too risky against land hate?

[Tacosnape]

I hate the card, but isn't this deck just screaming for Enlightened Tutor somewhere in here? Grabs Top, Counterbalance, EE, Painter, Grindstone, etc.


What if someone first turn chalice's, or bloodmoon/chokes you? How does this deck deal with that.. lose? Also.. lotta mana correction, most players I play are like auto 4x wastelands. My friend runs a pretty effective mono-white painter, is 100% nonbasics too risky against land hate?

Okay, first off, Nobody runs a turn one Choke.

Secondly, Force of Will stops everything listed there. As does Grip and Trygon out of the board.

Thirdly, if lucky, the combo just goes off under Blood Moon like nothing happened. If not, Blue Elemental Blast gives you better fighting shots also.

Fourthly, Trinket Mage/Engineered Explosives handles Chalice of the Void.

[Joe_C]

Not that I have played the deck, but is 4 seinsei's top really necessary in a deck that runs trinket mage and plenty of card advantage? Seems like at least 1 could be something more beneficial to the deck

[Mystical_Jackass]

I hate the card, but isn't this deck just screaming for Enlightened Tutor somewhere in here? Grabs Top, Counterbalance, EE, Painter, Grindstone, etc.
I think the enlightened tutors a good idea too, seems to fit well with all the brainstorms too. Prolly could cut down to like 2 sensei's then. It sucks mega when I look at the top 3 and bump into another sensei's rofl! Its like craaap :)


Okay, first off, Nobody runs a turn one Choke

Yeah, point taken, I was checking out the Elephant Stompy deck so it was sorta fresh in my mind ^.^ Your right though, most prolly wouldn't pull it off till 2 or 3. I know Dragon Stompy's a lil more popular, which rocks bloodmoon.


Secondly, Force of Will stops everything listed there. As does Grip and Trygon out of the board

maybe. If you have a force of will in your hand, and assuming you have another blue card. I see what you're saying, and hydroblast err.. blue elemental or w/e would help, didn't see that >.>

It looks like a pretty solid deck, just grabbing my stick and poking it for weaknesses for the heck of it lol. So what is this deck weak against then?

[gamegeek2]

Enlightened Tutor is very good, especially if you run Dreadnought/Stifle.

I would run 3 Top - it's amazing, but awful in multiples, and Trinket Mage can get it.

[jazzykat]

I 5-0'ed another local tournament. I didn't drop a game. I'll post a list and a brief report. Ladies and gentlemen...this deck is "For Real".

Briefly: Yes you want 4 tops, CB top in a deck with a real curve is AMAZING. Get it fast. If you have 2 tops, use a fetch and cycle it away.

Enlightened tutor is cool but having 5 basics IMO is even cooler. Which brings me to the fact of why are people worried about non basic hate. I slaughtered MUC with BtB tonight, what's the problem...? 5 islands are tech.

Lastly, Friday night was the first time I did anything magic related all week, I'm getting ready to move and have not been able to devote the time to provide my latest updates.

[zer0style]

I played this deck today in my local tourney and got second going 3-1 out of like, 12 people. Two games against goblins and Meathooks I wished I had the Pithing Needle instead of the third ponder, but they still did me well. The goblin matchup for this deck was way too easy it's not even funny, and he also had this weird maindeck goblin that destroyed artifacts, but it wasn't that hard to get around. I got a little frustrated with one land hands that would have all of top, grindstone, bob, ponder, and brainstorm and not getting a second or third land until turn 4 or 5, which lost me the round against Meethooks. I also almost never found my self playing Tarmogoyf and really using it to do anything than just sit there, maybe his spot could be removed to better help finding/protecting the combo? Just some thoughts :)

[jazzykat]

@zerostyle: My newest list, which I still haven't posted (I hope to do so tonight) has a MD pithing needle.

I'm not 100% sure what version you are playing because with 4 BS, 4 Tops, and 2/3 ponders and 21/22 land this deck digs out of 1 land hand scenarios remarkably well. There are a few situations besides the standard ones that you should dump a 1 land hand.

WRT Tarmogoyf: He plays a lot of roles and especially vs. slivers and goblins him just sitting there should buy you a few turns in which you can win. He is obviously a ridiculous beater and blocks other Tarmogoyfs. In reality he is just another must deal with spell. I mostly just use him as removal that can attack.

[zer0style]

I was playing your list with the third ponder instead of the MD Pithing Needle, and I too thought I would be able to get a second land but it just didn't happen some times.

[GoldenCid]

What about a MUC version of this deck???

// Lands
2 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
12 [LRW] Island (3)
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
4 [FD] Trinket Mage
1 [TO] Llawan, Cephalid Empress

// Spells
1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [TE] Grindstone
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [NE] Daze
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
1 [MR] Fabricate
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [5E] Hydroblast

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 3 [TE] Chill

[Fossil4182]

I think the deck looks really good. I'll have some ppl in my group try it out and let you know.

I'm hesitant to make this suggestion because it sounds as if you're are waxing people with this deck and you might not want to mess with a good thing. However, the first thought that came to my mind was cutting black for white in the deck.

Black gets you confidant which is awesome as well duress in the board. White, however would give you the access to StP that you talked about on the first page of the article. That would help some of the more difficult aggro match ups like Goblins or Ichorid. Plus, you've commented that Confidant does push you're life total at times. Furthermore, StP would allow you to break opposing Goyf stand offs and allows you to remove Confidant a lot easier without having to worry about EE going off at the right moment.

Additionally, being able to run enlightened tutor would mean you could run less Tops and Grindstones etc. While I realize it goes on the top of the deck, it does allow you turn the tutor into whatever card you need out of the deck:

Counterbalance
Shackles
Top
Grindstone
Painter
EE
Needle
(Post Board)
Relic
Tomb

Just a suggestion or a thought if you got board and wanted to try the change up. As an under view, I'm essentially suggesting you swap the card advantage for card quality in the deck.

[Brushwagg]

@GoldenCid: I have a few problems with your list.

1. You only have 1 way of finding Painter and that is the 1 Fabricate and your deck wants Painter more then Grindstone. I'd cut down the Trinket Mages or all of them for some more Fabricates.

2. Engineered Explosives: You can set it for 1. What do you plan on blowing up at 1? If you want to keep it in I'd look at putting 2x off color basics in there.

3. Daze: Yes it's good in Threshold, not so much in Painter or MUC. I'd look into Forcespike or something there.

[GoldenCid]

@GoldenCid: I have a few problems with your list.

[QUOTE=Brushwagg;339796]1. You only have 1 way of finding Painter and that is the 1 Fabricate and your deck wants Painter more then Grindstone. I'd cut down the Trinket Mages or all of them for some more Fabricates.

The management of the deck makes relatively easy to hit a painter relatively in the early game.


3. Daze: Yes it's good in Threshold, not so much in Painter or MUC. I'd look into Forcespike or something there.

Why not. Make brainstorm, return island + daze is owesome.



2. Engineered Explosives: You can set it for 1. What do you plan on blowing up at 1? If you want to keep it in I'd look at putting 2x off color basics in there.


Needle to whatever. Chalice @ 1.

Thiking about the deck i thought on making several changes:

-1 CB, -1 Aether spellbomb, -1 Fabricate + 3 ponder

and in the mana base:

-3 Island +1 Mutavault +2 Seat of the synod.

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

Hi,

I took this deck to Bazaar of Moxen #3 and went 6-3-0 with it, because I haven't tested the deck before so I haven't really known when to mulligan and when to keep an hand, so I didn't mulligan too often :P. I was really impressed by the deck, especially the 1-of Fabricate instead of the third Mage was awesome. Here are the decks I played against:

1. Team America 2-1 (in the third game Painter on black > Snuff Out)
2. Rg Goblins 2-0
3. Ugr Fish 2-0
4. Angel Stax 1-2 (in the third game he had an O-Ring on my Grindstone. I had an Confidant and an Painter out. End of his turn I had to fetch twice, going on 1 life to grip his O-Ring and get mit Stone back. In my Upkeep the Confidant kills me...)
5. Ad Nauseam Tendrils 2-0
6. Eva Green 1-2 (in the third game he started with Hymn, picking a land and Confidant. Then he reanimated my Confidant)
7. Mono R Goblins 2-0
8. Goyf Sligh /w Wastelands 2-1 (in the first game he crushed me. After I boardet I said to him: "Well, now I have to be faster than you" and comboed him third turn game 2 and fifth turn game 3)
9. 4c Control 1-2
-> 6-3-0

If I'm looking back now, I know that I have to mulligan more often and I would have won more games. But overall I'm really satisfied :).

[rockout]

Seems like this deck is putting up some numbers, I guess it's time to test it myself. You have kind of an odd meta: MBC, Epser?, Fish people still play that?, Matyr control?

[Serin]

Im gonna give this deck a shot also because my "weekend tournament" meta is like 6-8 DTB and then a lot of random things, from elves to standard decks, passing through burn, Life and many more...

[GoldenCid]

After some testing i wonder if CB is really needed. I have several problems against aggro decks, such as affinity. I think that constructing the combo as fdast as posible is needed is these match ups. I play a mono blue version similar to the posted above. I was thinking on - 2 CB +1 Fabricate + 1 Aether spellbomb (as mage toolbox helps as bouncer / draw). What do you think??

Mi sideboard includes:

3 Propaganda
3 Chill
2 Echoing truth
3 Tormod's crypt
3 Pithing needle
1 E. Explosives

Also, i think that 4 goblal tormod / needle is too much. But you tell me. Maybe, modifying side allows me keep CB main board.

[baghdadbob]

The sideboard is hard to say because I don't know your meta but your playing black... so engineered plague I heard is pretty good against goblins. :tongue:

[GoldenCid]

Nobody has tested wasteland here??

[Enigma]

Hey this list was looking promising.. what happened to it? We never saw your last updated list jazzykat?!

P-M

[GoldenCid]

Here i post my decklist with i went 2nd (split in final) in a 28 players tounament. Suggestion and comments are welcomed:

// Lands
2 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
7 [LRW] Island (3)
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [TE] Wasteland
1 [MR] Seat of the Synod

// Creatures
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
4 [FD] Trinket Mage
1 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought

// Spells
1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [TE] Grindstone
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
2 [5E] Hydroblast
2 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [SC] Stifle
2 [TSP] Trickbind
2 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 2 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 3 [TE] Chill
SB: 2 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 3 [MM] Misdirection
SB: 1 [5E] Meekstone

[Dark_Cynic87]

Nobody has tested wasteland here??

Wasteland is normally not in lists with Counterbalance because of the mana requirement of UU. Most lands have blue if you are playing CB because the goal is to get one active asap.

@ GoldenCid: That list is nutz. You placed 2nd? Only thing I'm curious about is why not 4/1 instead of a 3/2 split on Stifle and Trickbind, respectively? The 2x CB is weird, but seems like the way to go with all the non-blue mana sources.

Pce,

--DC

[GoldenCid]

Wasteland is normally not in lists with Counterbalance because of the mana requirement of UU. Most lands have blue if you are playing CB because the goal is to get one active asap.

@ GoldenCid: That list is nutz. You placed 2nd? Only thing I'm curious about is why not 4/1 instead of a 3/2 split on Stifle and Trickbind, respectively? The 2x CB is weird, but seems like the way to go with all the non-blue mana sources.

Pce,

--DC

So...What would you run instead CB??

[Alfred]

So...What would you run instead CB??

You're misinterpreting him. He's saying that you shouldn't run Wastelands.

[GoldenCid]

You're misinterpreting him. He's saying that you shouldn't run Wastelands.

Why not? Wastelands helped me a lot. I know that they delay the UU for CB, but in some manner daze do the same (?). Beside, this isn't (at least my version) a CB - top based deck. So i consider CB as an extra tool for my control and not the base of it.

[Dembones]

Why name red with painter instead of blue?

Are the BeB's in the main because you run into alot of red decks in your meta?

Do you not run ReB's so you don't have to splash red, making you less vulnerable to non basic hate?

Just wondering.

Edit: I just realized Painter said "In addition to it's other colors." sorry.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Why not? Wastelands helped me a lot. I know that they delay the UU for CB, but in some manner daze do the same (?). Beside, this isn't (at least my version) a CB - top based deck. So i consider CB as an extra tool for my control and not the base of it.

Look at the Thresh lists. UGw Thresh runs CB, and as such no Wastelands. UGr Tempo Thrash runs Wastelands, Stifles, but no CB. This is because while the main goal of thresh is to get down a CB asap, and therefore wanting to make two land drops that both produce blue so you can Turn one drop Top, into a turn 2 active CB, Thrash is more of a tempo list, where stopping their land drops is more efficient of a game plan paired with Stifles to hit their fetches, wastes to throw at the lands that do get through, so you maintain your tempo while messing with theirs. You don't need the mana because you don't have the compact combo with Thrash.

That was probably a little unfocused, but I'm at work. Hopefully you can get the drift. CB and Wasteland are two different disruption strategies, and as such do more to hinder than help when you play them together.

Pce,

--DC

EDIT::: I think against Affinity you should have some mix of Rebuilds and Hurkyl's Recalls. I know your combo is all artifact, but it's cheaper for you to replay your stuff since they will have to redo their land drops. Throws off their tempo enough to get your combo through before they can recover. This will also make the stompy and stax matchups better IMO.

[GoldenCid]

Just a question on this line...would you cut CB for 1 additional dreadnought mainting the 4 -1 / 3-2 (stifle / trickbind)? or should i add another stifle / trickbind??

[Brushwagg]

Since the Epic Painter Thread is kinda dead here's the list I played this weekend and made top 4. Only 12 players but I went 4-0 but lost in Top 4 to Merfolk. I beat out Zombies, Goyf Sligh, TES, and Affinity.

My List: NL Epic Painter

3x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Painter's Servant
3x Grindstone
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
2x Fabricate
1x Lim-Dul's Vault
4x Force of Will
3x Daze
4x Counterbalance
3x Sensei's Diving Top
2x Vedalken Shackels
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Academy Ruins
4x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand
4x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
4x Island
1x Swamp

//SB
3x Engineered Plague
3x Hydroblast
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Spell Snare
3x Krosan Grip

Over all I was happy with the deck. I tried to sneak 3x Smother in the deck but it messed with having a blue card in hand for FOW.

@Fabricate: Only cast it once but it was for Painter and the win. That's why it's there plus it can find Shackels also.

@Lim-Dul's Vault: This was almost Trinket Mage. But what it came down to was Vault can get you the win and Mage could only find Grindstone or E.E.. As I said before I never not liked having it in hand. If I had the room I would have played it as a 2 or 3 of.

@Daze: Well it did what I needed it to. The set back of a turn wasn't that big of deal. Having Goyf MD really changes how the deck plays. If I where to take the Goyfs out of the MD then Daze would leave also.

@

[gamegeek2]

Well, this is probably what I'll be playing at my next Legacy tourney:

4 Wooded Foothills
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Academy Ruins

4 Trinket Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Painter's Servant
2 Sower of Temptation

4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
3 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Grindstone
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives

--- Sideboard ---
3 Firespout
3 Trygon Predator
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Pithing Needle

Any suggestions/comments?

[Ch@os]

Without a way to search painter you should not play 5x REB, or whats your meta?

Also Predator out of the board is pretty bad.

[GoldenCid]

Without a way to search painter you should not play 5x REB, or whats your meta?


Right! And why not run Phyrexian Dreadnought??

[gamegeek2]

One of the main sources of inspiration for this deck comes from a list with Dreadnoughts. However, that would require Stifle, which is poor against other CounterTop decks compared with Daze.

The Red Blasts also happen to be good against half the format. This deck doesn't need Painter's servant, I'd estimate it only kills with Painter half the time, give or take a bit.

My meta is chock full of blue decks. There's a fair amount of aggro, some control, almost no combo but a couple regular Ichorid players.

Dreadnoughts out of the sideboard actually sounds like a good plan. So, sideboard changes:

-2 Chalice
-4 Something
+4 Stifle
+2 Dreadnought

[GoldenCid]

So...one intermediate question. Does This deck NEED CB (without wastelands) or i can cut them for another thing and use wasteland??

[Brushwagg]

The nice thing about Counterbalance is it's "free protection" for your combo. Given you plan ahead a little. I'm not sure Wasteland totally fits in here or. Not saying a Tempo list couldn't work but it would be a totally different deck and would need it's own thread.

@Gamegeek2: If your set of REB effects I would move some to the SB and add in a way to find Painter. Also 4x Trinket Mages is over kill.

You could probably go:
-2 Mage
-2 REB

+2 Fabricate
+1 Grindstone
+1 Engineered Explosives

[GoldenCid]

-2 REB



With this you say that 3 REB is enought??

[Brushwagg]

Personally I don't like the blasts in MD. They are very narrow. But Gamegeek did say this his/her meta is heavy blue so it could work. But you would also need a solid plan in case you face a non-blue deck. So that means either having a way to find Painter or enough options in the board.

If you where going to splash Red then I would proabaly steal the Magus of the Moon idea from Imperial Painter. Moon effects mess with alot of mana bases. But building one to fit with Magus is easy since the main win condition is colorless.

[gamegeek2]

The blasts are also synergistic with Painter. Why do you think Imperial Painter plays red blasts MD? Same concept. Instead of Recruiters to tutor for Painter, this deck has Top and Brainstorm with fetches. And like Imperial Painter, this deck can just go on a disruption/beatdown plan, with CounterTop instead of Magus of the Moon.

[Brushwagg]

The blasts are also synergistic with Painter. Why do you think Imperial Painter plays red blasts MD?

I know why Imperial play REB. But they can get screwed if they can't get a Painter in play or it get's killed. I'm just saying the Blasts are really narrow and are a better SB option.


Instead of Recruiters to tutor for Painter, this deck has Top and Brainstorm with fetches.

Big difference in the two. Imperial Recruiter will always find Painter. BS and Top won't always get there. Your decks needs a way to find Painter that's why I suggested Fabricate.


And like Imperial Painter, this deck can just go on a disruption/beatdown plan, with CounterTop instead of Magus of the Moon.

Except they can drop a moon effect turn 1. Not a huge difference in turn 2 CB, but I have seen turn 1 moon end the game.

Not saying it couldn't work the deck just needs some work.

[gamegeek2]

Not saying it couldn't work the deck just needs some work.

Of course the deck needs work. It's still a rough draft, of course.


Big difference in the two. Imperial Recruiter will always find Painter. BS and Top won't always get there. Your decks needs a way to find Painter that's why I suggested Fabricate.

Every time there's a blue Painter deck, there's always someone suggesting Fabricate. Well, one thing - show me the results. Are the Painter decks in Top 8 running Fabricate? The answer is, no, they aren't. And neither will I.

Top/Brainstorm is the best search/draw engine in the format, next to Intuition/Loam.


Except they can drop a moon effect turn 1. Not a huge difference in turn 2 CB, but I have seen turn 1 moon end the game.

Yes, Moon ends games on its own. So does Counterbalance, quite often. Not as fast, but still. And this deck has much better beatdown than Imperial Painter - Tarmogoyf is the best creature in the game, mainly because he is the best beater in the game. Magus of the Moon doesn't come close. Even Figure of Destiny pales in comparison.

[Brushwagg]

Of course the deck needs work. It's still a rough draft, of course.

The direction your going really should be in another thread. But if your going to go with blasts, which IMO are bad in the MD then I would get some more speed in the deck. Chrome Mox comes to mind.


Every time there's a blue Painter deck, there's always someone suggesting Fabricate. Well, one thing - show me the results. Are the Painter decks in Top 8 running Fabricate? The answer is, no, they aren't. And neither will I.

Actually I found 6 on Deck Check. The only reason I'm suggesting it is to make the blast that you want to run a little better. Holding a blast in hand aganist a non-Blue deck and tring to dig up a Painter with BS or Top just seems like a really bad plan when you can go get the Painter.


Top/Brainstorm is the best search/draw engine in the format

Brainstorm/Top are the best filters in the game. they give you the best of the top 3 and only become really good with a fetch land.

[gamegeek2]

Come to think of it, Recruiter recruits Sower as well (recruting Mage isn't very exciting). I could see running 1 or 2. No more, though. And maybe a Magus out of the board.

If Red blasts prove bad, I will cut them. For now, they're proving good. In testing against Imperial Painter yesterday they were excellent, strangely enough.

[GoldenCid]

I thought that this was the next level painter topic...:mad:

[gamegeek2]

It is. We're talking about my blue-based Painter list, which happens to contain MD Red Blasts.

Again, here is the list:

4 Wooded Foothills
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Academy Ruins

4 Trinket Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Painter's Servant
2 Sower of Temptation

4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
3 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Grindstone
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives

--- Sideboard ---
3 Firespout
3 Trygon Predator
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Pithing Needle

Considering removing Chalilces for something.

[voltron00x]

I split in the finals of the 38-person Legacy for a Beta Lotus in Bethlehem, PA, running the following Painter list which I call Hybrid Painter:

4 Painter
3 Grindstone
3 Top
2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Relic of Progenitus
4 Trinket Mage
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Fact or Fiction
3 Daze
2 REB
1 Academy Ruins
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Volcanic Island
1 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand

Sideboard

3 Counterbalance
2 REB
1 Pyroblast
1 Echoing Truth
2 Pyroclasm
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Chalice of the Void

Rd 1 - Win 2-1 vs Landstill
Rd 2 - Win 2-0 vs Probasco Counter Top (thanks Jeff)
Rd 3 - Win 2-0 vs The Rock
Rd 4 - ID
Rd 5 - ID
Quarterfinals - Win 2-1 vs Goblins
Semis - Win 2-0 vs The Rock
Finals - Split with Probasco Counter Top (from rd 2)

This list is based on what I played at GP: Chicago (see http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/17200_The_Long_and_Winding_Road_Eternal_Deep_Dish.html for my report).

I overestimated how much Storm would be present, as there were only 1 or 2 players running it (so I never needed the Chalices) and I should've had more hate for Dredge as two people played it but I don't believe either made the top 8. Personally I am huge fan of running the Stifles as combined with Wasteland and the REBs, you can sometimes just keep your opponent from ever actually playing Magic. Counterbalance was very good out of the board, and I use it mostly to ruin other people's SB plans (or out-CB other CB decks once I have access to all the REBS).

The Relic main was a waste (at least today it was) and I think I want to replace it with the 4th Top, although running 2 Daze 2 Spell Snare might also be good. The SB is in constant flux depending on what I expect to play against and I haven't found anything I'm really happy with yet. Merfolk is a tough match-up no matter what, so Llawan, Firespout, and more Pyros are decent options. I also like Mind Harness but can never seem to fit it.

The best change I made between Chicago and today was to change the Intuitions into Fact or Fiction. Before I tested it, I completely underestimated FOF in the deck. Powering it out on turn 3 is just outrageous. The card selection it provides in combo with Top makes it practically a tutor, and it was definitely the reason I was able to beat the Landstill decks.

In any event between the GP Trial, GP Chicago, and today I'm 13-4 with this deck. I think it's legit.

[Captain_Morgan]

How'd the lone Echoing Truth work out for you?

[voltron00x]

How'd the lone Echoing Truth work out for you?

It probably looks a little out of place... it started out as 2 Echoing Truth and 2 Llawan but I wanted 3 Chalice for Storm decks. I'd probably run 2 Chalice and 2 Truth the next time I play the deck. I've gotten used to having access to a catch-all like Truth from playing Vintage.

I boarded it in three times, and it was fine. Once it bounced a Needle naming Grindstone so I could win, and once it bounced an Aether Vial when my Goblins opponent had a Chalice on 1 and was stuck on 2 lands (and I already had Grindstone in play). I also brought it in against my round 1 opponent, who was running Humility, but I drew very well and blew him out in games 2 and 3 so it didn't matter.

[Gekoratel]

This is Jeff your round 2 opponent just so you know I was playing Probasco Counter Top not Landstill. Congrats on your finish the deck looks pretty insane.

[voltron00x]

This is Jeff your round 2 opponent just so you know I was playing Probasco Counter Top not Landstill. Congrats on your finish the deck looks pretty insane.

This format has too many decks :smile: Then again, that's why I like it so much.

I actually really like the build I ended up with, outside of the SB which needs more work. The Fact or Fictions made a huge, huge difference for me as compared to the Intuitions I ran in Chicago. I almost want to play 4.

I'm pretty sure I need to get used to playing you in the elimination rounds... hopefully I'll see you in the finals on Saturday.

[GoldenCid]

I got sourprised with CoV, how did they work?? I don't use them because u think they are "anti synergic" with our win conditions...

[DrewliusMaximus]

voltron00x, your list is really interesting. I usually play mono-red Imperial Painter and thus far I've preferred the Recruiters and the Moon effects instead of using multi-colored Painter builds. But I do like the approach you're taking. Coming from the mono-red side though I have to ask, have you had problems playing through Moon effects with your manabase?

[voltron00x]

voltron00x, your list is really interesting. I usually play mono-red Imperial Painter and thus far I've preferred the Recruiters and the Moon effects instead of using multi-colored Painter builds. But I do like the approach you're taking. Coming from the mono-red side though I have to ask, have you had problems playing through Moon effects with your manabase?

In all honesty, I haven't run into any Moon effects in the 3 tournaments I've played the deck. If I'm on the play, I should be ok between Daze and Force of Will, plus being able to crack a fetch for the one Island. On the draw though, it's FoW or nothing. My original list actually ran a few Chrome Moxes and more Islands because I was worried about moon effects. That's the way I'd go if I was playing in a tournament and expected a lot of Blood Moon.

I actually prefer the Wasteland + Stifle method of mana denial. It isn't always a free win, but it's usually enough time to score an easy win anyway, and I've found that the card draw and counters you get from Blue make the deck more versatile against the field.

[DrewliusMaximus]

I actually prefer the Wasteland + Stifle method of mana denial. It isn't always a free win, but it's usually enough time to score an easy win anyway, and I've found that the card draw and counters you get from Blue make the deck more versatile against the field.

No doubt. Blue is the most versatile color, and makes for the most consistent decks generally. Tops help make the mono-red version a little more consistent, and recently I have been playing with Welder and Gamble which help in that area too. Mono-red Imperial Painter's biggest strength (aside from the ability to play a fast Magus/Moon) is the ability to really abuse a resolved Painter with a ton of complementary cards. But that is also its biggest weakness - it is very reliant on the scarecrow. In addition to the blue consistency, I like how your list can basically play two different combos, each of which can be completed by tutoring with the Trinket Mage. I would probably play with a slightly less vulnerable manabase, but that's just me. Anyway, it's a really interesting deck, and congrats on the finish.

[voltron00x]

I got sourprised with CoV, how did they work?? I don't use them because u think they are "anti synergic" with our win conditions...

Chalice was there only for storm, and only to run out on zero, to shut down / slow down Ad Naus and Belcher. It was the best answer I could come up with quickly. I'd never run it out on 1 or 2, obviously.

honestly I'm not sure its even needed, I was 3-0 against Storm between the GP and GPT.

[GoldenCid]

@Voltron00x: Yesterday i got to the top 8, with my Mono U version, in a 25+ tournament losing in quarterfinals against Eva green.
The point is that your list has not CB which is a sight of hope for me becasuse this cards brings me a lot of doubs. Why did you decide to cut it? And which was the replacement card??

[voltron00x]

@Voltron00x: Yesterday i got to the top 8, with my Mono U version, in a 25+ tournament losing in quarterfinals against Eva green.
The point is that your list has not CB which is a sight of hope for me becasuse this cards brings me a lot of doubs. Why did you decide to cut it? And which was the replacement card??

I cut it because most of the time, I'm trying to be the beatdown game one. That involves playing early wastelands and accelerating with Ancient Tomb. However, some decks require this one to play the control role (such as ANT), or are incredibly vulnerable to CB. It's also a way to counteract opposing sideboard cards like Ancient Grudge, Krosan Grip, STP, etc. In testing, it just seemed better out of the board than in the main.

My starcity article tomorrow will be about the evolution of the deck and a tournament report.

[GoldenCid]

I cut it because most of the time, I'm trying to be the beatdown game one. That involves playing early wastelands and accelerating with Ancient Tomb. However, some decks require this one to play the control role (such as ANT), or are incredibly vulnerable to CB. It's also a way to counteract opposing sideboard cards like Ancient Grudge, Krosan Grip, STP, etc. In testing, it just seemed better out of the board than in the main.

My starcity article tomorrow will be about the evolution of the deck and a tournament report.

And cutted it out for fact or fiction?? and what do you think about meekstone in de SB??

[voltron00x]

Basically yes, some type of draw engine was needed to keep up with the control decks in the format.

Meekstone is a decent possibility in the SB if various forms of Thresh are popular where you play.

[jazzykat]

To any that may have cared I've moved to Austria and have been resultingly very busy.

@voltron: I have read about your deck and looked over your lists. First I must congratulate you on your success. I have not been able to test it at all so this is purely analysis. The deck I started this thread with and was successful with and the one you have been successful with are rather different.

When I posted the initial version it was a rip off, of Andy Probasco's NL lists. My goal was to simply out threat the opponent and win with whatever was on the table at that time. In short I tried to vomit out the most "must answer spells" with the believe that the opponent would run out of answers. What it seems to me that you have done is meld together elements of Imperial Painter and Dreadstill to create a more focused but seemingly less powerful deck.

1. While I think your build has a lot of cool interactions I noticed the lack of counterbalance in the main (Is this some type of sideboarding tech that people are now doing? If I ever played against you even if I didn't see cb I would bring in every grip I had (which I know you would stifle my fetches and waste my green sources...), so I'm not sure what you are doing with it there...).

2. I believe you have already addressed blood moon and BtB (i.e. you don't see it much), but your manabase can get preyed on pretty well by a well timed wasteland (and everyone is succeptible to stifle so that is sort of irrelevant).

3. At first glance it seems that you have less sources of actual or virtual CA and more sources of DA (i.e. Dread+stifle). I realize there are interactions with trinket mage and that you don't really need CA when you win the game but with all of the interactive cards you are playing it seems that you would go longer into the game with only FoF to restock and some 2 for 1's from Trinket Mage.

I look forward to you addressing the above mentioned points and again congratulations on winning a substantial prize.

[GoldenCid]

My starcity article tomorrow will be about the evolution of the deck and a tournament report.

Could you provide us the link to it?? Thx!!

[gamegeek2]

Updated list:

4 Wooded Foothills
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Academy Ruins

4 Trinket Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Painter's Servant
2 Sower of Temptation

4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Grindstone
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Relic of Progenitus

--- Sideboard ---
4 Firespout
3 Krosan Grip
3 Lorescale Coatl
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives

[voltron00x]

Could you provide us the link to it?? Thx!!

Sure thing - let me know your thoughts here or on the forums there.

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/17586_The_Long_Winding_Road_Lotus_Notes.html

[GoldenCid]

Sure thing - let me know your thoughts here or on the forums there.

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/17586_The_Long_Winding_Road_Lotus_Notes.html

Congrats for the article and for your results in tournament.
Have you considered propaganda as a viable sideboard card??

And is this a good list of CB sensible decks?

Storm
Burn / slight
Elves
Berserk stompy

The last one: Which kind of decks could side us gaea's blessing??

[voltron00x]

Congrats for the article and for your results in tournament.
Have you considered propaganda as a viable sideboard card??

And is this a good list of CB sensible decks?

Storm
Burn / slight
Elves
Berserk stompy

The last one: Which kind of decks could side us gaea's blessing??

I did consider Propaganda. It seems like it'd be good against Goblins, Zoo, Merfolk, and Ichorid, and might actually be better than Pyroclasm. I should probably revisit it.

CB is terrific against Storm, Elves, Zoo, Burn or Goyf Sligh, MGA, and also against any other decks that want to run CB, since their mana costs are in the same range. Siding in an unexpected CB can totally wreck them game 2.

[gamegeek2]

could anybody give advice for my list? I'm playing it on Friday and Sunday...

[GoldenCid]

I did consider Propaganda. It seems like it'd be good against Goblins, Zoo, Merfolk, and Ichorid, and might actually be better than Pyroclasm. I should probably revisit it.

CB is terrific against Storm, Elves, Zoo, Burn or Goyf Sligh, MGA, and also against any other decks that want to run CB, since their mana costs are in the same range. Siding in an unexpected CB can totally wreck them game 2.

I think so...i took your idea cutting 2 CB and 1 BEB in favor of 3 impulses as aditional draw engine to top and brainstorm.
What do you think about my side??

SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 3 [TE] Chill
SB: 2 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 3 [MM] Misdirection
SB: 1 [5E] Meekstone
SB: 2 [CS] Counterbalance

[gamegeek2]

Dream Wizards Legacy #4

4 Wooded Foothills
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Academy Ruins

3 Trinket Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Painter's Servant
2 Sower of Temptation

4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Grindstone
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Engineered Explosives

--- Sideboard ---
4 Firespout
3 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
1 Pithing Needle

I finished somewhere between 9th and 12th, with the best breakers ever.

Round 1 - Canadian Threshold (he made T8)

G1 he mulls to 5, we get into a Goyf fight and I grind him out. Game 2 is interesting, we get 3 Goyfs apiece, he trades a Mongoose and a Bolt for 1 of them. So he gets Goyf advantage and puts me to 4, he's at 9 and I have 2 4/5 Goyfs. I Top into another Top and Force my own Top, holding Pyroblast. He can't force the force because he'll die to Goyfs, so he loses.

Round 2 - Storm (he made T8)
Game 1 he goes to 1 life off ad nauseam and is 1 life short of killing me. I came close to punting game 2, but I get it with CounterTop.

Round 3 - Eva Green (he made T8)
Game 1 I mull to 5 and keep the following hand
Mountain (I hate this card, it's going out of the deck)
Painter's Servant
Top
Grindstone
Relic of Progenitus

I still lose because I draw a bunch of lands and he snuffs servant out. Game 2 I blow him out with CounterTop followed by Goyf. Game 3 he hymns away my second land and I'm stuck on a Mountain, while Top fails to find me land for 5 turns in a row.

Round 4 - Chris Harten (he made T8)
He's 3-0, so he offers me the draw even after he wins game 1.

Round 5 - Calosso Fuentes (he made T8)
Game 1 he beats me with Ajani Venegant while the board stalls out. Game 2 takes forever, I get Academy Ruins (he's like WTF Bad Card, I dunno if he was sarcastic) and blow up everything, but I start trying to win after it gets close to time. I could've Grinded myself to help Top into it, but I forgot. Managed to land the combo on turn 5, but it was too late (he had force but knew it didn't matter).

Well, my first time playing a blue deck in legacy, did OK. I'm definitely changing some stuff around though. Here's my new version after making some significant tweaks:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Island
1 Academy Ruins

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Trinket Mage
3 Painter's Servant
2 Sower of Temptation

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
2 Spell Snare
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Grindstone

--- Sideboard ---
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
3 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 Firespout
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Krosan Grip
4 Firespout
1 Engineered Explosives

[jazzykat]

gg2: I think your list is quite interesting. I notice that you and others are MDing REB's. While they are obviously sometimes good and are a cool trick with the painter's servant they are sometimes totally dead.

You also run StP which I struggled with running and eventually chose not to to run black for Confidant. How is that working out for you?

[gamegeek2]

I cut the maindeck REBs because they weren't working out so great and dead too often. Swords are the most efficient removal available, and without the REB/Painter to deal with creatures, explosives just isn't enough.

[Brushwagg]

I cut the maindeck REBs because they weren't working out so great and dead too often.

I think I mentioned this. ;)

@White: This can be very effective. I have splashed White before and and thought of doing so again. I'll have to see if I can dig up a deck list.

[GoldenCid]

Last weekend i split finals running my Mono U painter deck. In this oportunity i tested the introduction of 3 impulse cutting 2 CB and 1 BEB, considering the voltron00x's option. Here is a brief review of the tournament:

Round 1: Affinity. 2-0. 1-0-0.
Round 2: Affinity. 2-0. 2-0-0.
Round 3: Fish. 1-0. 3-0-0.
Round 4: Red stax. 1-2. 3-0-1.
Quarterfinals: Mono B aggro control. 2-0. 4-0-1.
Semifinals: WB aggro control (random deck...:tongue: ): 2-1. 5-0-1.
Final: Elves. Price split and intentional draw. 5-1-1.

And...my list:

/ Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
7 [LRW] Island (3)
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [TE] Wasteland
1 [US] Plains (2)
1 [MR] Seat of the Synod

// Creatures
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
4 [FD] Trinket Mage
2 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought

// Spells
1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [TE] Grindstone
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
1 [5E] Hydroblast
3 [SC] Stifle
2 [TSP] Trickbind
1 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
3 [VI] Impulse

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 3 [TE] Chill
SB: 2 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 3 [MM] Misdirection
SB: 1 [5E] Meekstone
SB: 2 [CS] Counterbalance

I also added a plains to rise EE to sunburst 2 and it was useful. I cut 1 academy ruins in favour of the plains. The change was minimal. Impulse did well. Although i couldn't test it enough when i played it, it worked.
Comments and suggestions are welcomed.

[jazzykat]

General Comments on Recent builds:

I really don't like anything with the dreadnaught/stifle secondary combo. I feel that Tarmogoyfs are generally stronger in the deck because they block everything except dreadnoughts and trade 1:1 with removal.

I used to play the crap out of dreadstill but guess what, people finally caught on and Krosan Grip became the most (or second most?) played side board card.

My feeling is that this deck should be focused more on out threating everything except for combo decks where you need to play control.

I also feel that the stability of 5/6 basic island manabase outweighs the tactical options provided by a more non-basic heavy build.

With regards to GC's deck:
I think you took a Mono-U build to its ultimate conclusion as you obviously don't use other colors for splash creatures.

[GoldenCid]

I feel very confortable with the stifle / trickbid / nought pack. I don't think that tarmogoyf is really necesary here. Think that stifle and trickbind serves to the mana denial purpouse besides in addition with wasteland. Tarmogoyf is a good boy but i have serious doubs if iti is the indicated here. In my last tornament, a StP to my Dreadnought meant 12 life stuff for winning while tarmogoyf, believe me, would has been crap in that match against fish.

[voltron00x]

I'll be running the deck this Sunday at the SCG $5K. I'll post the results here next week.

I'm pretty close to adding Propaganda to the SB, it seems like a potent addition.

I also wouldn't cut the REBs - even in the rare instances where they're completely dead, I only run 2, and I have 4 Brainstorms to shuffle away any I've drawn, plus Tops to manipulate my deck so I don't draw them.

[Brushwagg]

IMO blasts shouldn't be in the MD. You say you can Brainstorm them away if they are dead, but I say why run a card in MD that can be dead? Save the blasts for the board.

[GoldenCid]

IMO blasts shouldn't be in the MD. You say you can Brainstorm them away if they are dead, but I say why run a card in MD that can be dead? Save the blasts for the board.

Any sugestion for replacing them??

[voltron00x]

IMO blasts shouldn't be in the MD. You say you can Brainstorm them away if they are dead, but I say why run a card in MD that can be dead? Save the blasts for the board.

Honestly? Most of the decks where they're dead, you're already a favorite. The decks where you aren't a favorite, having them makes a big difference - Merfolk, NLU / CB-Top, Dreadstill, Landstill, etc. These decks make up a larger and larger % of the population as you progress into a tournament. It's basically like pre-boarding against the tougher match-ups.

And in a deck like Painter, "dead" is always a relative term, since against many decks, you resolve Painter, they go to play a removal spell and the REB is your protection.

Besides, that logic is flawed from the start. Counterbalance is a dead card against Dredge - why does anyone run it main when it might be dead?

[spirit of the wretch]

I played a "Next Level Painter"-esque deck at the local Hassloch tourney (42 player) on sunday and finished 4th.

Here's my list:

[SPOD] Gráinne Ní Mháille

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Academy Ruins

//19 land

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Painter Servant
4 Dark Confiant
3 Trinket Mage

//15 dudes

4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Devine Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Ponder
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Grindstone

//26 stuff

I faced:

1.) Aggro ITF: ID as we don't want to knock each other out of contention
2.) TES: easy 2:0 victory
3.) ANT: 2:1 thanks to free counter and my own combo finish
4.) Burn: 2:0 not even close
5.) CB Thresh/r: 0:2 this one really upset me. More on the topic later
6.) Tempo Thresh: 2:0 due to combo finish

Over all, I really liked the inclusion of Painter/Stone in a "regular" Thresh list, but I honestly don't think my list is the way to go. The lack of removal cost me both games against the red Thresh.dec, as I wasn't able to deal with Trygon Predator, which single-handedly disarmed my complete board and bashed me to death. It was pretty humiliating.
So kids, never leave home without your removal suit =)
Anyway, I think I'll keep working on this archetype as the combo finish definitely impressed me. Sloves some of Threshs problems.

[Brushwagg]

Besides, that logic is flawed from the start. Counterbalance is a dead card against Dredge - why does anyone run it main when it might be dead?

Counterbalance doesn't need another card to function, you might not hit the right number, but it will always trigger. Yes it is better with Top, it doesn't need Top. REB/Pyroblast needs Painter to make STP, P2E, Smother etc.. Blue.

@Spirit: I think I would drop the Jittes, which seem weird, for Shackels. It does provide some "removal". Shackels just changes the game.

Also 1 Grindstone? Seems kind of risky to me. I usally go with at least 3. It ups the chance of just drawing/opening the combo. I really like the games that go turn 1 GS, Turn2 Painter, Turn 3 win. It happens more then you think.

[voltron00x]

Frustrating day yesterday at the SCG $5K Legacy.

Round 1 - Win 2-1 vs Merfolk (Propaganda after SB was huge)

Round 2 - Win 2-0 vs Affinity (Won both games using Dreadnaught; game 1, used REB to kill a Master of Etherium to alleviate a lot of pressure. Game 2, Propaganda on turn 2 made me pretty safe)

Round 3- Win 2-0 vs Merfolk (Game 1, hit both REBs and that made things easy, and my opponent was light on mana and I countered his Aether Vial; Game 2, the REBs and Propaganda were excellent)

Round 4 - Win 2-1 vs Counter/Top (Game 1, REB powered me through FoW for the win with Painter; Game 2 I stumbled early and his Bob had me too far behind; Game 3, I used REB to counter Counterbalance, set up my own Counterbalance and won from there)

Round 5 - Lose 0-2 vs Zoo (Game 1, kept a land with 2 lands, and he had 3 Wastelands, setting me too far behind; Game 2 I had to mulligan and my hand was awkward. I couldn't keep Painter in play through the Bolts, Chains, and SB hate. This felt like a REALLY bad match-up)

Round 6 - Lose 1-2 vs Planeswalker Control (This was a feature match. Game 1, I misplayed, not realizing my opponent had an on-board win with Mishra's Factory (which he top-decked) plus Ajani plus Elspeth. Game 2 I won very quickly due to chaining Fact or Fictions to get impossibly ahead. Game 3 was a good game in that it was close, but it was also very frustrating. I kept a hand of 3x REB, Brainstorm, Grindstone, and Volcanic. He had sided in Meddling Mages and Spell Snares so the REBs were integral to my success. I brainstormed on turn 1 into a 2nd land and a Top. Unfortunately, my Top revealed two more tops. Awkward. I couldn't hit a third land for many turns; a lucky Daze on an over-eager Crucible kept me alive. I also dodged a Wasteland by playing Pyroblast on a land and then Dazing it.

Round 7 - Lose 1-2 vs Canadian Thresh (These games were a little frustrating. Game 1 I set up the combo and had 7 turns to draw a 3rd land. I finally drew one the turn before I would've lost. Game 2, my opponent top-decked a Bolt to kill me when I used Grindstone, which I was dead if I didn't use. Game 3, same thing, although I screwed up badly with my sideboard. I thought I had moved in 2 Relics and was taking one out, when in actuality I sided out the only one. I made a play in the middle of the game of Trinket Mage thinking I could get Relic, and the wasted turn cost me.

Round 5 was the only loss where I reaaalllly felt out-matched. Round 4 was very close, Round 6 I probably should've won game 1, and Round 7 came down to top-decks in all 3 games.

I'm struggling to figure out what to SB against Zoo. Firespout is an option, as is Chill. Firespout has applications against Merfolk and Goblins, and helps against Zoo in that it might let me set up a CB lock. Chill is another idea that should turn off their burn spells. Finally, Hydroblasts might work.

The Propagandas were terrific against Merfolk and make that match-up much, much better.

As far as the 3 MD REBs, 6 of the 7 decks I played ran Blue, so they were really, really good on the day.

[GoldenCid]

@voltron00x: I'm glad that you comprobed the efectiveness of propaganda. I side exactly like you in that matches. Could you show me your actual SB?? Did you tested impulse instead of FoF??

@Spirit of the wretch: I think that you list is a thresh list with painter stone inside. I'm not sure if it shoud be placed is this threads. However if found it interesting but it would run thresh or painter not an hybrid.

[voltron00x]

SB was:

1 Pyroblast
1 REB
2 Echoing Truth
4 Propaganda
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Counterbalance

I may stick my head in the sand and pretend Ichorid doesn't exist for Legacy Champs. I hate wasting those spots and I probably need something for Zoo, because those games were just awful.

I didn't try Impulse. I like the card, but Fact is just soooo good against other control decks or Top decks so you can gas back up.

[Brushwagg]

@voltron00x:Sorry to hear about the bad beats. Where you going with the same list as you posted on the other pg?

@SB:Damn that's alot of grave hate. I know Ichorid is kinda of bad but wow.

@FOF:I haven't tried it at all in a Painter deck, but is it better then just tutoring up the win?

@Counterbalance: I'm kind of surprised your not mding them. Considering the combo is kind of mana intensive and FOW can only go so far.

[voltron00x]

@voltron00x:Sorry to hear about the bad beats. Where you going with the same list as you posted on the other pg?

@SB:Damn that's alot of grave hate. I know Ichorid is kinda of bad but wow.

@FOF:I haven't tried it at all in a Painter deck, but is it better then just tutoring up the win?

@Counterbalance: I'm kind of surprised your not mding them. Considering the combo is kind of mana intensive and FOW can only go so far.

The only MD change from last time was -1 Relic, +1 REB. I really have no idea what that card should be... the 3 REBs were good Sunday though. A Needle would be good... 1 Tezzeret would be kinda cool... 1 CB main? Maybe the 3rd Dreadnaught (which is where I started in Chicago...)?

I go back and forth on Counterbalance. Game 1 with 3 Daze, 3 REB, and 4 FOW plus the card manipulation of Brainstorm / Top and card draw of FoF, I can usually find and stick the combo. Then games 2 & 3, I like to use CB/Top to counter the sideboard cards my opponent might bring in.

FoF is insane. It lets you see an obscene amount of cards. If you already have Top in play, then FoF lets you see 5 cards, plus you can Top and see 3 more, and if you hit a Trinket or Fetch, you see another 3 cards. The fact that you see so many cards plus you can draw so many more (and sometimes can stick another FoF the next turn to drive the nail in the coffin) makes it one of the best cards in the deck. The only match-ups where its bad are Ichorid, Belcher, ANT, decks like that, where its a little slow.

[GoldenCid]

I may stick my head in the sand and pretend Ichorid doesn't exist for Legacy Champs. I hate wasting those spots and I probably need something for Zoo, because those games were just awful.


Threads of disloyalty and an aditional EE could be the way out against that deck...beside Propaganda...off course but not in a 4x format.

[voltron00x]

Threads of disloyalty and an aditional EE could be the way out against that deck...beside Propaganda...off course but not in a 4x format.


The problem with Zoo is their early pressure PLUS the fact that they can simply point burn spells at Painter. If the deck gets REALLY popular, Hydroblasts and Chills would be pretty effective, or even Firespout to sweep away their early drops so that the counterspells can be saved for protecting Painter might also work.

I think that hoping to dodge Ichorid is a relatively sane plan. Thus far I've only faced it once in my last 38 rounds of Legacy. To really be good against it I'd need somewhere around 7 SB cards - carrying 3-4 is the worst of both worlds, since it isn't that effective and mostly just wastes those slots.

[GoldenCid]

Actually i'm running 3x Chill in mi side with great results. Also Threads and meekstone helps a lot agaist zoo or even rock or stalker decks such as eva green.
I always run grave hate. I cover us from ichorid but from Jotun Grunt beside!! This guy is awful for Painter - stone combo. Tormod's cryp MD also help us to delay a Stalker cast...i 'm glad with that kind of cards.

[jazzykat]

While I haven't tested it I believe that a card like submerge could own zoo decks. They pay the CC twice for the creature and can't attack for another turn and you pay only the card. That seems like a nut high play against them especially since you just need enough time to either assemble the combo or countertop or drop your own Tarmogoyf.

[voltron00x]

While I haven't tested it I believe that a card like submerge could own zoo decks. They pay the CC twice for the creature and can't attack for another turn and you pay only the card. That seems like a nut high play against them especially since you just need enough time to either assemble the combo or countertop or drop your own Tarmogoyf.

I bought four yesterday for testing. Its quite possible that you're 100% right.

[Brushwagg]

@Zoo: I have yet to play aganist it, but I have played aganist Giyf SLigh alot and it seems they both have problems with Counterbalance. I would love to get some real removal in the deck. It will probably end up hitting the SB since the MD is pretty full.

Something like this maybe.

3x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Painter's Servant
3x Grindstone
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
2x Fabricate
4x Force of Will
3x Daze
4x Counterbalance
3x Sensei's Diving Top
1x Executioner's Capsule
2x Vedalken Shackels
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Academy Ruins
4x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand
4x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
4x Island
1x Swamp

//SB
3x Engineered Plague
3x Smother
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Spell Snare
3x Krosan Grip

[Barsoom]

Why this thread isn't on the Estabilished forum? reading from the last pages, there are top8s with it every week, maybe more than the original Imperial Painter.

[GoldenCid]

I reopen the discussion with a remaing question: "Is gaea's blessing a stable sideboard card or is it just random??"
Despite the answer...whick decks do you think commonly run it??

[MTG-Fan]

Why this thread isn't on the Estabilished forum? reading from the last pages, there are top8s with it every week, maybe more than the original Imperial Painter.

Imperial Painter is just a more solid deck, imho.

[Bardo]

Why this thread isn't on the Estabilished forum? reading from the last pages, there are top8s with it every week, maybe more than the original Imperial Painter.

Yeah, it's a perfectly fine deck and deserves promotion to Established.

Done.

@ All - Trust me when I say the staff is not constantly scouring the site for decks to promote (other than fairly-regular DTB updates). If you think a certain deck deserves to get promoted, just PM me or one of the other site staff and we'll look into it.

[sauce]

why not just go -black +red and run imperial recruiter instead of dark confidant?
then you can run red blasts main for blue.

[GoldenCid]

The thrid time:


I reopen the discussion with a remaing question: "Is gaea's blessing a stable sideboard card or is it just random??"
Despite the answer...whick decks do you think commonly run it??

[umbowta]

I reopen the discussion with a remaing question: "Is gaea's blessing a stable sideboard card or is it just random??"
Despite the answer...whick decks do you think commonly run it??

Grindstone combo isn't prevalent enough for Blessing to be commonly seen in boards.

I think no relevant decks run it with any regularity.

[jazzykat]

To save a double post:


Grindstone combo isn't prevalent enough for Blessing to be commonly seen in boards.

I think no relevant decks run it with any regularity.

+1. You can also crypt them with the blessing trigger on the stack.



Well, this has made it to established...cool. What this deck really needs is a solid primer in the thread. I have had local success as well as some others on this thread with a basic heavier version, Voltron (and others?) had success with an Ancient Tomb version, and there was some mono-U floating around in here. I can't write the whole thing but I am willing to contribute my latest deck lists, and explain strategy, etc.

2 Questions

1. For a primer who would like to be the lead editor? This person will sollicit others for their advice, sections, reviews etc. ?

2. Can we agree for the sake of a primer on (3?) versions of the deck? Maybe it only needs to be 2?

[Brushwagg]

I'd be willing to contribute. I'm not a very good writer so I'd probably not do the primer or anything like that.

@2. I'd go with include the core of the deck and then include the different verisons.

[MTG-Fan]

UR Trinket Painter/Next Level Painter:

// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
2 [EX] City of Traitors
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ALA] Mountain (3)
1 [MR] Great Furnace
1 [MR] Seat of the Synod
2 [ALA] Island (2)
4 [B] Volcanic Island

// Creatures
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
4 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
1 [TE] Grindstone
4 [CS] Counterbalance
1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [AP] Fire/Ice
3 [IA] Pyroblast
3 [A] Red Elemental Blast
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [DK] Blood Moon
SB: 4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon

[jazzykat]

Have you even tested that list? If so what were your results.

[GoldenCid]

I'm going to participate in a big open tournament next sunday and i'd like to discuss ab out my actual list (i won some 25+ tournaments with it):

/ Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
7 [LRW] Island (3)
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [TE] Wasteland
1 [US] Plains (2)
1 [MR] Seat of the Synod

// Creatures
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
4 [FD] Trinket Mage
2 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought

// Spells
1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [TE] Grindstone
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
1 [5E] Hydroblast
3 [SC] Stifle
2 [TSP] Trickbind
1 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
3 [VI] Impulse

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [MM] Misdirection
SB: 2 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 3 [TE] Chill
SB: 2 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 1 [5E] Meekstone
SB: 2 [CS] Counterbalance

Concerning the posibility of stom decks would you run CB or Chalice of the void??
Meekstone is the to stop natural - progenitus...does it worth??

Is there a chance for jitte??

Comments??

[Enigma]

I reopen the discussion with a remaing question: "Is gaea's blessing a stable sideboard card or is it just random??"
Despite the answer...whick decks do you think commonly run it??

We could have strong weapon against it that is also good against Dredge: Tormod's Crypt (Recursive) or Leyline of the void.

P-M

[Brushwagg]

Concerning the posibility of stom decks would you run CB or Chalice of the void??
Meekstone is the to stop natural - progenitus...does it worth??

Is there a chance for jitte??



Answer 1: Counterbalance. It's better because I know TES and the like can go through a Chalice pretty easy. Counterbalnce is harder for them because it's a Chalice for X instead of 0 or 1. Not to mention CB doesn't cut you off like Chalice can.

Answer 2: Are you really that afraid of Progenitus? Your playing Deadnut so you can race or combo on them?

Answer 3: NO! You don't run enough creatures.

I would prepare for Zoo. It's becoming super popular and your Painters might not survive for very long.

[MTG-Fan]

I think you need more Propaganda in the sideboard.

[GoldenCid]

I think you need more Propaganda in the sideboard.

At first i run 3x propaganda SB and decided to reduce it to 2x in change with meekstone with good results. Meekstone not only stops progenitus, stalker and goyf are stopped too.
I don`t know if it worth. Maybe a +1CB, -1 Meekstone is a good change...

[merfolkotpt]

Why does this deck not run imperial recruiter? I mean besides the obvious cost issue. In the abstract, best cards sense, he should be a 4 of since he fetches every part of your combo: >servant or >trinket mage>grindstone. Dunno, seems pretty good to me. Especially since you can play him second turn, first if you change the mana to a chalice aggro style, though that would probably suffer in two colors.

[Brushwagg]

Why does this deck not run imperial recruiter?

Well this isn't Imperial Painter. The thread started as a off shout of Epic Painter (UGB).

[GoldenCid]

I was thinking about my side and i will do:

-2 CB +1 Gaea's blessing +1 Propaganda/Hurkyl's recall (?)

Has sense??

[Brushwagg]

I was thinking about my side and i will do:

-2 CB +1 Gaea's blessing +1 Propaganda/Hurkyl's recall (?)


Why? Is this because of your weekly meta or a big tournament? If it's for weekly then what does your meta look like??? If it's for a bigger tournament then what do you expect there?

I've already gave my reason on why you should keep Counterbalance.

[jazzykat]

For what you need CB for i.e. protecting painter (stp,bolt, PtE, etc.) and stopping combo I believe it to be the best option.

I have to second Brushwagg's line of questioning.

[GoldenCid]

For what you need CB for i.e. protecting painter (stp,bolt, PtE, etc.) and stopping combo I believe it to be the best option.

I have to second Brushwagg's line of questioning.

The thing with CB is that i run in 2x. And most of time i sided in i foud more prioritary to do another thing instead of playing CB. Maybe my trouble with it that 2x isn't enough to flip my deck to a Counter-top one when the pairing requires it.

[Brushwagg]

For what you need CB for i.e. protecting painter (stp,bolt, PtE, etc.) and stopping combo I believe it to be the best option.


QFT. Not to mention it you can counter stuff with out having to keep mana open.

Here's a list I'm looking at.

// Lands
4 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
4 Island
1 Academy Ruins
3 Underground Sea
2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta

// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Painter's Servant
3 Dark Confidant

// Spells
3 Smother
2 Fabricate
1 Threads of Disloyalty
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Grindstone
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Vedalken Shackles

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Spell Snare
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Threads of Disloyalty

I went ith some removal because of Zoo, Merfolf and Elves seeing more and more play. I'm unsure of Threads but I'm going to test it out.

[GGoober]

@Brushwag, love your list. I have a similar one. I was running red for REBs but I decided that Bob is too good in the deck (low mana curve to exclude him), not to mention, your opponents have to deal with Bob, Goyf, Painter, all of which serve to resolve each of your creatures better.


// Lands: 20
4 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Academy Ruins
3 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland

// Creatures: 15
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Painter's Servant
4 Dark Confidant
3 Trinket Mage

// Permission: 12
4 Spell Snare
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will

// Card Quality: 7
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top

// Others: 6
2 Grindstone
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Vedalken Shackles


// Sideboard:
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Trygon Predator
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Extirpate (meta slot)


Any advice would be appreciated. It plays like Probasco with no red and uses EE to deal with Swarm aggro. 3 Grips and 2 Trygons give good matchups against opposing Countertop and Stax variants. Extirpate is against troublesome matchups e.g. aggro loam and it helps to remove StP/bridges/EE/anything.

EPlague is for Merfolks/Goblins matchup. Crypt is against Ichorid and against Gaea's Blessing. Needle is tutorable and goes against Survival etc.

I'm thinkin for the Ubg versions whether we could make do with Deathmark in the MD. It answers many targets in Thresh/Zoo/Elves. Even without opposing green creatures, you can use Painter to name Green/White and destroy any target. Seems a little cute and more narrow than REB in red builds, but it's a possibility. I've considered packing 3 Perish in the SB and naming green with Servant to get a wrath effect but decided against that since you don't want to kill your board as well.

[Brushwagg]

@Crz87: You might find as I did you need some more removal. I've been having having some troble with Zoo and Merfolk. I haven't had the time to test the list above yet so we will see. Also how easy is it for you to get the combo? Seems like it might be a little hard since your not running Ponder or Lim Dul's Vault or anything like that.

@Trinket Mage: I use to run this guy but I switched to Fabricate because it's able to get every artifact in the deck (Painter, Shackels) which can be huge.

@Deathmark: You might give Executioner's Capsule a try first. It's only limit is it can't kill Black creatures, but it can be brought back with Ruins.

[jazzykat]

I have to agree with brushwagg except over trinket Mage. I strongly feel the stupid 2/2 body is worth it. It's personal preference.

[Brushwagg]

I have to agree with brushwagg except over trinket Mage. I strongly feel the stupid 2/2 body is worth it. It's personal preference.

Well it's a trade off. I like the ability to find Shackels or Painter if needed. But as you said it's personal preference.

[GGoober]

Most of the time, I play the deck like NLU, getting CBtop and beating with goyfs. Trinket Mage fetches Top/EE/Grindstone so it's good enough a fabricate. It has a body which is relevant to chump Goyf for a turn before you get your combo/goyf/shackles.

I do agree I need more removal. Which is better: Doom Blade or Smother? My build isn't too reliant on the combo as yours and packs a little more counterspells against troublesome decks like Canadian Thresh.

[GoldenCid]

Why do you insist on running goyf??? Don't you like Dreadnought/ stifle pack??

I played finals in a 20+ tournament with a Mono U deck. Great metagame and great results for me exacpt in the final :(.

I'm thinking on running a 3x of enlightned tutor...cutting 1 TMage and 3 impulse (1 slot is still free)...What do you think???

Should i add the 4th stifle??

[BrassMan]

I played Painter for a few months in Atlanta before building NLU

if memory serves, my list was something like this:

// Lands
2 Tropical Island
5 Island
2 Academy Ruins
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta

// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Trinket Mage
3 Painter's Servant

// Spells
4 Chrome Mox
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Grindstone
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Red Elemental Blast / Spell Snare / Threads / Never Could Decide

// Sideboard (not exact, and varied from week to week)
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Firespout/Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 REB
SB: 2 BEB
SB: 2 Magus of the Moon
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt


Having seen the other lists in this thread, I wouldn't be surprised if most of you didn't like some of the decisions I made with this, but it worked well enough for me. Ultimately in my opinion Painter proved to be too weak against other Counterbalance lists (which I don't believe is a solvable problem), and the gains in other matchups weren't significant enough to compensate in my meta/what I percieve to be a "big tournament" meta. It is, however, flexible, a blast to play, and brutal against aggro decks. I suppose with dredge doing so well at the legacy champs, the better matchup this deck has there could be relevant as well.

[Brushwagg]

Why do you insist on running goyf??? Don't you like Dreadnought/ stifle pack??

Because it's a 2 card combo and alot kills Dreadnaught. Not saying Goyf isn't killable but artifact hate that your opponent is going to bring in is going to hit it as well. If your having sucess great.



I do agree I need more removal. Which is better: Doom Blade or Smother?

Well i was going to say Smother until I looked up Doom Blade. Tough call they kill pretty much the same. If you see alot of Black in your meta I'd go with Smother since DB can't kill Bob, Shade etc..

Something else to think of is if you name Black with your Painter you end up screwing yourself with DB probably not going to happen alot)and yes I have named Black to shut off opponents removal)

[GoldenCid]

Because it's a 2 card combo and alot kills Dreadnaught. Not saying Goyf isn't killable but artifact hate that your opponent is going to bring in is going to hit it as well. If your having sucess great.


Right. But goyf doesn't win a game....naught does. :smile:

[Brushwagg]

Right. But goyf doesn't win a game....naught does.

I beg to differ. I will give you that Naught wins faster.

But really the beat down to me is plan B, with plan C being beat down with my opponents creatures.

[GGoober]

Tournament 21: 08/09/09
1st/2nd: Chris Z with BUG Trinket Painter, Eddy with LED Dredge
3rd/4th: Teddy with RGW Zoo, Jason with Merfolks

Participants:
Eddie - LED Dredge
Eugene - LED Dredge
Joey - Eva
Teddy - RGW Zoo
'lil Chris - Belcher
Kim - Stax
Jason - Merfolks
Chris Z - BUG Trinket Painter


The list I ran:

4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
1 Island

4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Stifle
2 Grindstone
1 Phyrexian Dreadnought

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
3 Painter's Servant
3 Trinket Mage

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Counterbalance

2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Engineered Explosives

SB:
3 Extirpate
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Trygon Predator
3 Krosan Grip
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives

I really disliked how the deck played. Painter Servant won me one-game. Never saw Stifle in the early game. It did do well against the Ichorid matchup. Dreadnought won me 2 games. 1 Dreadnought's good. Bob won me plenty of games. I think I'll switch to UGb Tempo Thresh after this. I'm not sure, still tinkering with jank ideas. Countertop with Bob is perhaps the most broken thing right now.

[jazzykat]

@brassman: thanks for the insight. It seems that people forgot that you were the inspiration for starting this thread.

An incarnation of this deck very similar to brassman's put me at 15-0 and put my total rating high enough for an invite to US Nationals.

I hosed aggro so bad. Finally having played against a different meta (changing continents may do that) I have had to change my life focus as well as my deck.

[Brushwagg]

I really disliked how the deck played. Painter Servant won me one-game. Never saw Stifle in the early game. It did do well against the Ichorid matchup. Dreadnought won me 2 games. 1 Dreadnought's good. Bob won me plenty of games. I think I'll switch to UGb Tempo Thresh after this. I'm not sure, still tinkering with jank ideas. Countertop with Bob is perhaps the most broken thing right now.

It might have to do with the your trying to play Tempo and Counterbalance. The 2 really don't play well together even though it seems like they should. I think you would've found the combo more if you had more search. I see you weren't playing Ponder.

I feel Counterbalance is the way to go since it really doesn't need a whole lot of mana which is good since the combo takes at least 3 to activate.

[[SLAYER]chaos]

Here's the deck I've been playing at my local tournament the past 2 weeks:

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [DIS] Breeding Pool (should be Trops if I had them)
3 [8E] Island (4)
1 [7E] Forest (1)
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
1 [MR] Seat of the Synod
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
4 [FD] Trinket Mage
2 [LRW] Sower of Temptation

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [TE] Grindstone
1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
3 [NE] Daze
2 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [A] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [DIS] Trygon Predator
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

It's gone 8-0 so far but I know the meta will be a lot tougher once I take it to bigger tournaments. I really like Ancient Tombs in this deck, it accelerates so much. And without a third color it's very rarely bad to draw multiples of it.

Sowers I like more than Shackles in this deck because of Tomb. Mainboard Relic could probably be a Pithing Needle but I'm not sure, it's helped out a lot. Sword of Light and Shadow is the most questionable card in the deck. I really like the protection it gives Painter. It's also great for recurring Trinket Mages to chump block and to help get back some of the life loss from tomb. I just feel like it could be something better. I was thinking about 2 Fact or Fiction in it's place.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

[Brushwagg]

@Slayer:Ok. First off I'd cut the Seat of Synod, for another Island. There is no need to have the artifact land. I might also cut the the Forest and change the Heaths to Polluted Deltas. That way all the Fetches can get Blue.

As far as the rest of the deck it looks like its tuned for your meta. What does your meta look like? There must not be too much, if any Zoo, Merfolk etc. The reason I say this is you are very light on removal, or stuff that lets you borrow your opponent's dudes. Have you thought of a third color? If not why? Is it because of the lack of the duals?

But some suggetions:

-2 Trinket Mage: I feel 4 is overkill. Sure they are great chump blockers and they complete the combo. I'd look to add some Shackels or Sowers here.

-1 Top -2 Sword: You might look at 3x Ponder here. They are great at helping you find that last combo pc, digging for an answer, and a shuffle if needed.

Relic: Could be Crypt, but you run Tomb so that really doesn't matter.

@SB:The think at seems like the most out of place is 2x Jitte and 1x Crypt: I don't think you run enough creatures to make Jitte worth it and you have a ton of grave hate already. Is your meta all Ichorid? For these slots I'd look at something that really hurts the meta.

Could you please post what your meta looks like.

[[SLAYER]chaos]

Could you please post what your meta looks like.

A lot of combo. Normally 2 Ichorid, 1-2 Belcher, 1-2 ANT, and 2-3 Painter Stone (including me) out of 20-30 people. Then there's a lot of countertop (mostly dreadstill) and very few good aggro decks.

I would really like to splash white for swords but I don't have any other duels/fetches.

[Brushwagg]

@Slayer: Damn. Wish we still had 20-30 players in Syracuse.

Now back to the topic. As far as White goes I don't think that would help you out a whole lot unless the rest of your meta is Aggro. But first you might look into Shackels, Threads of Disloyality, and possibly Submerge.

Before you splash another color I'd suggest getting the duals for that color first. You pretty much want most of the lands in the deck to produce Blue.

Here's something I'd try. (Using most of the cards in your list above)

4x Flooded Strand
2x Windswept Heath
4x Bredding Pool (You need Green 1 turn)
4x Ancient Tomb
1x Academy Ruins
4x Island (might bump that to five, if so drop a Ponder)

4x Goyf
4x Painter
2x Trinket Mage
2x Sower of Temptation

3x Grindstone

4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
2x Fact or Fiction (or something of the like)

4x Force of Will
3x Daze
4x Counterbalance
3x Top

1x Crypt/Relic
2x Shackels

SB:
3x Krosan Grip
2x Crypt/Relic (Good mix if you fear needle)
4x BEB (Painter on Red)
3x Spell Snare
3x Submerge/Echoing Truth


This is off the top of my head. I think with this list and yours you should be able to come up with something. Again I would only look into splashing a 3rd color when you come across the duals to do so. But in your meta I might look into splashing Red first, for REBs in the board.

[Misplayer]

So I played the following list to a 4-0-1 finish at a local event (~20 players), cut to top 4 and split:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Island
1 Academy Ruins

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Trinket Mage
3 Painter's Servant
2 Trygon Predator
1 Vendillion Clique

4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Vedalken Shackles
2 Grindstone

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Lightning Bolt


3 Pyroblast
3 Spell Snare
3 Firespout
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt

Round 1: Tom (J.V.) with UGr Dreadstill
Game 1: We hit land drops. Tom forgets what I’m playing even though we were discussing the deck about 10 minutes prior. I manage to successfully Bolt a Goyf. He resolves Dreadnought. I have EE and go for it. He has FoW, gg.
Game 2: I resolve Trygon Predator (the BEST card in this matchup) and eventually CB/Top.
Game 3: He’s stuck on 2 lands. I resolve Top and dig up Painter/Grindstone. Grindstone resolves first. He has only a Volc up as he passes the turn (he’s been broadcasting Stifle the entire game). I got to fetch and he Stifles. I can now resolve Painter without fear of Spell Snare. On his turn he goes for Lightning Bolt. I Brainstorm into a 2nd Force of Will as he has a FoW of his own, and the combo does it’s thing.

1-0 (2-1 games)

Round 2: John with Ugw Eva/Deadguy style deck
Game 1: I play Island, he Thoughtseizes, I Brainstorm and hide a Daze hoping he’ll play into it next turn. He takes Painter (I think?). He plays Hymn into Daze. I resolve Counterbalance. He resolves double Confidant and we each resolve a Goyf. I have Force for Tombstalker. He almost kills himself with 2x Confidant but Kitchen Finks give him some life. He can’t resolve relevant spells under CB/Top. I find 2 more 6/7 Goyfs. He’s at 6, I swing with 2 of them and trade for half his board. Eventually I find and stick Painter, Trinket into Grindstone, I activate, he goes for StP, I have to trade Top and hope he doesn’t have a 2nd StP. He doesn’t.
Game 2: I keep a 1-land hand with Brainstorm, 2x Top, Counterbalance, Goyf and Lightning Bolt. He Thoughtseizes a Brainstorm trying to keep me short on mana. I rip a Volcanic Island like a pro. Island, Top, pass. Wasteland, Confidant, pass. Volc, Bolt Confidant, pass. Play land, Waste Volc, pass. Play 2nd Volc, Counterbalance, pretty much GG once I Force his Vindicate.

2-0 (4-1 games)

Round 3: Joe(I think?) with Ichorid
Game 1: This sucks as I have no good maindeck answers except EE which I somehow open with. He plays City of Brass, PImp, LED, I decide to go for Bolt on it and he dumps double Stinkweed and Deep Analysis. He dredges into nothing. I play Top. He dredges into nothing. I play EE at 0 to force him to dump his LED. He dredges into a second Deep Analysis and maybe a Bridge. No Ichorids, no Narcomoebas. I get recurring EE up and Counterbalance to prevent shenanigans. Painter is swinging in for 1 a turn. He finds Narco but only has two Bridges. I EE his men. He inexplicably draws for a turn and get’s his Therapy ‘balanced. I find Force backup just in case he can combo into Dread Return. Finally, I find Trinket -> Grindstone, win. If he had dredged the one turn he drew he probably would have won, or at least come very close to winning.
Game 2: I open with 4 land, FoW, Brainstorm, Crypt. Seems good. Turn one he goes Breakthrough for 0. Fine by me. He dumps all kinds of good stuff in the yard. I draw Daze and Crypt him. He rips a Putrid Imp into Daze. He rips another one that I Force. I Clique away a Grave-Troll and go to beats. Clique + double Lightning Bolt get there.

3-0 (6-1 games)

Round 4: Roddy (RoddyVR) with UWg Standstill Slivers
Game 1: I Force his Vial. He resolves Standstill with a Mutavault out. I hit land drops and EOT Brainstorm when he’s at 6 cards. I play Painter + Jitte. He StPs Painter and plays ANOTHER standstill. I play into this one with Trinket and find EE. He plays Harmonic Sliver and hits Jitte. He finds a second and third Mutavault and swings into my Trinket, I trade. I find Bolts for his other two Mutavaults and lock him out under CB/Top. He can’t play anything. I either smash with Goyf or find Painter/Grindstone.
Game 2: He gets a slow start with tons of lands and plays Standstill with no pressure. I have Top so I hit all my land drops, scuplt a hand with Shackles, 2x Counterbalance, 2x Goyf, Lightning Bolt, and eventually go for EOT Clique (soooooooo good) and seeing all 1s and 3s that I know I can Counterbalance once I play one next turn. I play Counterbalance and Goyf, lock him out, smash him.

4-0 (8-1 games)

Round 5: ID into top 4.

Thoughts: the deck is pretty solid. I swapped Daze for Spell Snare depending on if I was on the play/draw but I didn’t see Spell Snare all day. I think I want a second EE either main or sb and maybe cut Shackles. Shackles was the only card that didn’t stand out because I never saw/needed it, everything else was extremely solid. I’m still not sure if the lightning bolts should be REBs in the main.

The combo finish is very light (5 cards) but can still win any game on the spot and is not too difficult to assemble with Top and Trinket. It’s also nice because Painter/Grindstone will often draw the hate meant for CB/Top because it’s a lot scarier, even though CB/Top is just as likely to win you the game.

[Brushwagg]

@Misplayer:The first thing I thought about about when going over your list was, how good is Lightning Bolt? As far as changing them to Pyro/REBs, it seems you could get away with because your meta is heavy blue. I board the blast because they can suck if you don't have Painter in play.

How where the 1 ofs for you? The Jitte seems really out of place MD and as a 1 of.

I've often through the idea of playing Red around, but what it comes down to is I like drawing cards with Bob and Black has better spot removal then Red.

[[SLAYER]chaos]

@Brushwagg: Working on getting some of the cards you suggested. I dropped the two SoLS for 2x Ponder and it was awesome all day.

I'm probably going to drop a Trinket Mage and the MB relic for 2x Shackles/threads. I'm just not sure how well Shackles will work against the decks I want it to be good against. Against fast aggro like Zoo or Goblins I'll normally be tapping Tomb at least once to activate shackles and I'll normally only have 3-4 islands out by that time. Not enough to steal a Goyf. It's awesome against Tribal aggro, but Jitte wins those matches by itself. Threads seems it would work better. I can steal their Goyf/Bob/dreadnought and they waste their removal on that or lose. Which then leaves Painter/stone open to win. I'll probably test both out just to be sure.

I'm also thinking about sticking a Pithing Needle in the sideboard but I don't know what would be relevant to shut down since I'm not really scared of wasteland.

[Misplayer]

@Misplayer:The first thing I thought about about when going over your list was, how good is Lightning Bolt? As far as changing them to Pyro/REBs, it seems you could get away with because your meta is heavy blue. I board the blast because they can suck if you don't have Painter in play.

How where the 1 ofs for you? The Jitte seems really out of place MD and as a 1 of.

I've often through the idea of playing Red around, but what it comes down to is I like drawing cards with Bob and Black has better spot removal then Red.

Lightning Bolt is the best "removal" in these colors. It answers MOST of the format (with Goyf being a glaring exception, but Goyf answers Goyf). It was really solid all day and I would probably have lost to an unanswered Bob/Goyf/triple Mutavault and everything else it took care of for me.

I'd say maindeck REB is good against 60-70% of the decks in the format. The rest of them eat it to Counterbalance.

The one-ofs were decent. The library manipulation of 8 fetches plus 3 Trinket along side Brainstorm and Top let you see an inordinate amount of cards and draw the ones you want. I was running Fabricate but swapped it for a 4th Top at the last minute, hence the one-ofs. I usually run 2 Jitte in CB/Top style lists, but I didn't feel I had the creature base to support a second. I would probably swap out Jitte for a second Shackles or EE.

[Brushwagg]

I'm probably going to drop a Trinket Mage and the MB relic for 2x Shackles/threads

Look at Threads first. But if you where to ever drop the Tombs I'd go with Shackels. With Sower being in yourt deck already either one is can be good.


I'm also thinking about sticking a Pithing Needle in the sideboard but I don't know what would be relevant to shut down since I'm not really scared of wasteland.

To name a few: Aether Vial, Survival of the Fittest, any Planeswalker etc..

@Jitte: Not sure about it altogether. I play this as Combo first, man plan second. I play 11 creatures and the only 1 I consider a beater is Goyf. I feel I'd rather have a another search, protection, or removal card in it's spot.

[holkenborg]

I just won a 14 man local tournament with this deck:

4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
2 tundra
2 tropical island
2 underground sea
2 island
1 academy ruins
1 seat of the synod

4 tarmogoyf
4 painter's servant
3 dark confidant
3 trinket mage

4 brainstorm
2 ponder
4 force of will
3 daze
3 counterbalance
3 sensei's divining top
4 swords to plowshares
3 engineered explosives
2 grindstone

----

3 blue elemental blast
1 engineered explosives
2 misdirection
1 divert
1 counterbalance
1 relic of progenitus
2 tormod's crypt
1 pithing needle
1 krosan grip
2 path to exile


Round 1 - Pikula: 2-1
Round 2 - Zoo: 2-1
Round 3 - Aluren: 2-0
Round 4 - Aggro Loam: 2-0
Round 5 - Canadian Thresh: 2-1
Round 6 - Merfolk: 1-2

I no longer doubt the fragile manabase, because each color is only needed for 1 card: green for Goyf, white for StP and black for Confidant.

Also, Path to Exile was very good. Sided it in many times and he was very useful.

[Brushwagg]

I never understand why people include Seat of Synod. It should just be an Island or a Dual, because your not running TFK and need to pitch a usless artifact. If you need Trinket Mage to find it then your probably not winning that game anyway.

As far as the rest of list looks pretty good. I'm not sure about the mana base, but if your meta doesn't have alot of Wastelands in it then you can get away with it.

[holkenborg]

The Seat of the Synod is questionable indeed. But in the past I sometimes just needed that extra land to go off. And so far I have seldom lost because it is an artifact land rather than another.

And it is true that the manabase is fragile, but I still won from Pikula (Sinkholes, Wastelands, Vindicates), Aggro Loam (Wastelands, Devastating Dreams), but did lose against Merfolk. That was because of Jitte, not the mana base.

*Edit: My reasons for playing 4 colours anyway and taking the risk of getting manascrewed is that IMO this deck isn't good enough otherwise. IMO StP is needed to survive, Confidant is a master card draw engine and Tarmogoyf gives the beatdown gameplan (used a lot).

[Brushwagg]

The Seat of the Synod is questionable indeed. But in the past I sometimes just needed that extra land to go off. And so far I have seldom lost because it is an artifact land rather than another.

Not totally following here. Are you saying search it out wuth Trinket Mage? Why? That sets you back a turn where you could just play the combo out then win the next turn.


And it is true that the manabase is fragile, but I still won from Pikula (Sinkholes, Wastelands, Vindicates), Aggro Loam (Wastelands, Devastating Dreams), but did lose against Merfolk. That was because of Jitte, not the mana base.

I'm going to say you got lucky there. But if your going 4 color thats the risk you take. Stp is good but I'm finding Smother and Shackels, and E.E. to be more then enough to hold off my opponents till I win.


My reasons for playing 4 colours anyway and taking the risk of getting manascrewed is that IMO this deck isn't good enough otherwise

Not sure why you feel that way. Have you tested 3 colors? I mean this deck can win turn 3 or just win later in the game.

[holkenborg]

Not totally following here. Are you saying search it out wuth Trinket Mage? Why? That sets you back a turn where you could just play the combo out then win the next turn.

Yes, that is what I am saying. In the past I sometimes wished that I could search for a land rather than an artifact when playing Trinket Mage. So I agree that on paper it may look bad, but due to previous experiences I have added it. I can totally agree replacing it with another basic / fetch/ dual.


I'm going to say you got lucky there. But if your going 4 color thats the risk you take. Stp is good but I'm finding Smother and Shackels, and E.E. to be more then enough to hold off my opponents till I win.

Not sure why you feel that way. Have you tested 3 colors? I mean this deck can win turn 3 or just win later in the game.

I have tested the manabase and its not as fragile as it looks. Each splashed color is meant for 1 card only. At the time your opponent destroys your dual, you propably have played that specific card already. I haven't played this deck for a while. In fact, the last time was at Dutch nationals Nov 2008 (156 people) and I made it to top8. That was with a Ubg build. My (mental) notes were to add StP for Smother wasn't good enough.

If I would play this deck with less colors, I would play the Epic variant with Lim-Dul's Vault and go completely for the combo. Now, with 4 colors you can either go combo, control and aggressive. As long as you know your role in the match, there are enough cantrips to play that role.

So concluding: I am not saying that 4c is the best way to build this deck, but I do think the manabase is less fragile then it looks on paper. I have had no problems with getting the right colored mana, only with getting the right number of lands. And as along as that is the case, I prefer StP+Pte > Smother + Shackles.

[GoldenCid]

Here is a list i used last weekend to get a 5th place in a 23 players tournament:

// Lands
2 [TSP] Academy Ruins*
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
7 [LRW] Island (3)
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [TE] Wasteland
1 [US] Plains (2)
1 [MR] Seat of the Synod

// Creatures
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
4 [FD] Trinket Mage
2 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought

// Spells
1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [TE] Grindstone
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
3 [SC] Stifle
2 [TSP] Trickbind
4 [VI] Impulse*

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [MM] Misdirection
SB: 2 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 3 [TE] Chill
SB: 2 [WL] Gaea's Blessing
SB: 2 [TO] Llawan, Cephalid Empress
SB: 1 [U] Meekstone

(*) A copy of this card replace a BEB (which i used in the mentioned tournament)

Comments??

[holkenborg]

A few questions:

1. Did you not miss spot removal mainbord?
2. How did Propaganda work as a 2-off?
3. Did you ever get to cast Llawan, Cephalid Empress? Did it give you the game?

[GoldenCid]

A few questions:

1. Did you not miss spot removal mainbord?

Really in this tournament i run the blast and didn't get it. Indeed i didn't miss'em.

2. How did Propaganda work as a 2-off?

Great. It's simply enought.


3. Did you ever get to cast Llawan, Cephalid Empress? Did it give you the game?

Yes. But i admit that o was hard to do. It's not equal to win the game but it turns the game in your favour clearly.

[Brushwagg]

I've been doing some thinking. I'm going to start testing some Red mixed in the SB. With Zoo and Merfolk running rampant here's what I'm looking at.

// Lands
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
3 Island
1 Academy Ruins
2 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island

// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Painter's Servant
3 Dark Confidant

// Spells
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Smother
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Brainstorm
3 Grindstone
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
3 Ponder
3 Daze

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 Firespout
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 4 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Pithing Needle

I don't like taking the hit on the mana base, but I did the best at keeping up the Island count.

I'm giving Firespout a try over Plague since it helps out in multiple matches, not just Tribal.

Pyroblast: Takes the place of Spellsnare.

[GoldenCid]

In the last post i saw some "rainbow" mana bases. I think that the best is a xU splash to bring stability or just mono U.

@Brushwagg: did you like firespout?? I find it...useless?

[Brushwagg]

The last Eli's I went got cut short for me. The day was terrible for me though.

Round 1: Won game 1 beacause my opponent was flooded. G2: I drew 11 plus lands. G3: Lost to Jitte on topped deck Krosan Grip to kill my Needle on Jitte.

Round 2: Lost to Ichorid: Drew terrible that round also.

[GoldenCid]

Coming back to the discussion i bring my Ug version:

/ Lands
2 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
6 [LRW] Island (3)
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [TE] Wasteland
1 [A] Tropical Island
3 [DIS] Breeding Pool

// Creatures
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
4 [FD] Trinket Mage
2 [TO] Llawan, Cephalid Empress
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [TE] Grindstone
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
3 [CS] Counterbalance

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [MM] Misdirection
SB: 2 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 3 [TE] Chill
SB: 2 [WL] Gaea's Blessing
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip

Tarmopainter with C-top...less vulnerability to artifact hate and more control. I knok, breeding pool should be tropical (specially with tombs!!) but that's waht i have.
Llawan is an innovation, i thought in jitte but i 'm not sure.
What do you think??

[ryO!]

Coming back to the discussion i bring my Uw version:

// Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
5 [LRW] Island (3)
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [TE] Wasteland
1 [US] Plains (2)
2 [R] Tundra
1 [DK] Maze of Ith
1 [FUT] Tolaria West

// Creatures
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
4 [FD] Trinket Mage
2 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought

// Spells
1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [TE] Grindstone
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
4 [SC] Stifle
2 [TSP] Trickbind
3 [6E] Enlightened Tutor

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [MM] Misdirection
SB: 2 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 3 [TE] Chill
SB: 2 [WL] Gaea's Blessing
SB: 1 [TO] Llawan, Cephalid Empress
SB: 1 [U] Meekstone
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

I think side has the biggest problem.
Is there place for StP here??

you don't need Enlightened Tutor at all imo it s redundant with sensei/trinket which both do the job better. + even brainstorm.
here you go 3 place for stp.

[GoldenCid]

you don't need Enlightened Tutor at all imo it s redundant with sensei/trinket which both do the job better. + even brainstorm.
here you go 3 place for stp.

Do you reALLY that this deck needs other removal than EE??

[whitenihilist]

here is a B/U version I am working on, since I cannot afford goyfs and real Duals, here is what I have:

4 Island
4 Swamp
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Watery Grave
1 Academy Ruins

3 Diabolic Edict
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
2 Spell Snare OR Smother
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
3 Lim-Dul's Vault

4 Painter's Servant
3 Trinket Mage
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tombstalker

2 Grindstone
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explsosive


sb:

4 Duress
4 Shackles
3 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitis

Any advice?

[Tangle.Wire]

Hi guys, beside Dreadstill and Canadian i just packed a Painter list last days, as a "friend" of me just picked up the idea to play Reap as a sort of Yaw. Will in this deck. Since i am not able to splash white for swords at the moment i came up with this list to play on further tournaments:

3 Painter
4 Tarmogoyf

1 Grindstone
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Senseis divining top

1 Life from the Loam
3 Counterbalance
3 Reap
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Spell pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Intuition

1 Academy Ruins
3 Wasteland
3 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
1 Forest
3 Island
6 Fetchland

For the Sideboard i am not sure what to pack right now, but i still miss something on the Mainboard, i think of cutting the pierces for daze as it saves me by dropping early painter/goyf/counterbalance but also the land drawback is pretty bad to go off as soon as possible.

[GoldenCid]

Compost > Reap??

[Tangle.Wire]

Not really, compost is good in drawing cards but reap let us recover multiple cards and is an instand, i already thought of compost in the sideboard but had no space for it.

[mort-]

Hi,

long time reader, first time poster here :) We got a legacy tournament coming up and I wanted to play something other then ANT. So - long story short - I looked up some painter decks and build my own version (mostly because I don't have Goyfs, so I had to think of something else).

For now, I'm testing the following list.

3x Underground Sea
1x Tropical Island
4x Volcanic Island
1x Island
3x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
3x Misty Rainforest
1x Academy Ruins

4x Painter's Servant
4x Trinket Mage
4x Dark Confidant

3x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Meekstone
2x Grindstone
1x Engineered Explosives

4x Counterbalance

4x Brainstorm
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Pyroblast
3x Repeal
4x Force of Will

2x Jace, the Mindsculptor


Sideboard:

1x Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Threads of Disloyalty
3x Krosan Grip
2x Ravenous Trap
3x Perish
2x Firespout


I was testing against Urb Thresh and ANT (without Doomsday). While the Manabase seems pretty strong, it did happen that I didn't draw a second land within a Brainstorm (while keeping a otherwise solid hand). Most of the time thought, I could stabilize against the Thresh list an combo him out fast enough.
ANT is (with every CounterTop deck) imho a pretty easy matchup, it got a bit harder after he boarded in Confidants, but the Threads took care of them pretty good.
So, I am able to test against Ichorid (and will do within the next days), but we don't have the pool for a Zoo or other CounterTop decks (Bant, Thopter, etc.).
So it would be great if someone could share their experiences with these matchups and also point out some keycards (without Goyfs ofc) that I'm missing.

Thank you.

[jazzykat]

I'm glad to see that there is still interest.

1. There is another deck called Epic Painter which also has a separate thread. You may find more inspiration there.
2. There are 2 big problems for this deck: A. There are a lot of Progenitus and Emrakul in decks right now, so you need to also crypt them or something, with triggers on the stack and B. There is tons of spot removal right now.

[nodahero]

As an FYI you can't crypt a progenitus. His ability is a replacement. You can however Crypt an Emrakul

[GoldenCid]

Well, giving new life to the topic and after testing a Ub configuration i bring a new list created considering the actual metagame. I went 6-0-2 in a huge tournament with the following list (nop, i could not enter the top 8 by standings, incredible):

// Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
6 [LRW] Island (3)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [U] Underground Sea
1 [DM] Swamp (2)
1 [5E] Forest (2)
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
2 [FD] Trinket Mage
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought

// Spells
1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [TE] Grindstone
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [SC] Stifle
3 [CS] Counterbalance
1 [10E] Pithing Needle
2 [TSP] Trickbind
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [TE] Chill
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [U] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [6E] Perish
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate

I first began testing with goyf + jitte but i didn't feel safe. With the best know configuration with Drednought + stifle pack i got more blue cards to pitch to fow and stablish a good control of the game before going off or dropping a 12/12 trampe.

The highlights here are my last inclussion Jace the mind sculptor, a risky card for confidant but an awesome one to set the lock. In the side Perish is crucial, destroys almost every thread of you opo: goyf, progenitus, hierarch, mounts of elves, trygon predators and so on. The few things i doub is running just 2 mages (confidant compensates this 2 of) having a small "toolbox": Tormod's crypt + Needle. Grindstone and phyrexian are not considered part of this toolbox because they are in greater amounts (2 and 3 respectivelly).

I decided running 3 PD over 2 Grindstone becasuse is the most vulnerable plan: sword to plowshares, Path to exile, Quasali pridemage (grindstorn too) and so on. So running 3 12/12 makes us less dependant of T. mage to get another.

Well suggestions are welcomed as well as question and eneral comments.

Thx!!

[jazzykat]

Cool list and congratulations on your finish. JaceTM is so awesome I don't think it matters much about flipping one to DC, besides once you have DC+Jace how can you lose?

Secondly, you run stifle+waste+dreadnought but don't capitalize on your mana taxing. Why? I'm not saying its wrong but it is common practice.

Third, the 3/2 Stifle/Trickbind split was for counterbalance right?

Last, and I realize this is crazy to say, Tarmogoyf isn't a big enough threat anymore. With Survival doing 16 on turn 4, and KotR running rampant he isn't what he used to be when the format was faster. I completely agree with you cutting them.

Last, last, nice use of the Dreadnought since removal is at an all time low I agree that it pays to be more greedy.

[GoldenCid]

Thx for your comments!!



Secondly, you run stifle+waste+dreadnought but don't capitalize on your mana taxing. Why? I'm not saying its wrong but it is common practice.

I don't understand the term " capitalize on your mana taxing" maybe is a maTTEr of language but if you can explain it i would be graceful.



Third, the 3/2 Stifle/Trickbind split was for counterbalance right?.

Yes. At first i wanted to run spell snare but i could make it place so i tried to cover the most dangerous mana cost in magic = 2.



Last, and I realize this is crazy to say, Tarmogoyf isn't a big enough threat anymore. With Survival doing 16 on turn 4, and KotR running rampant he isn't what he used to be when the format was faster. I completely agree with you cutting them.

Last, last, nice use of the Dreadnought since removal is at an all time low I agree that it pays to be more greedy.

Agree to all. Goyf didn't make it during testig except i was equiped with jitte which is, for me, too mana intensive. And a dead goyf i a lost guy in the deck, we can't retrieve or tutor it.

[henry808]

maybe x1 Muddle the Mixture? searches for Counterbalance, Painter, Trickbind, Goyf... even Jitte or Confidant if you really needed it to.

[GoldenCid]

maybe x1 Muddle the Mixture? searches for Counterbalance, Painter, Trickbind, Goyf... even Jitte or Confidant if you really needed it to.

Mmm...i don't know. I mean, i understand the utility of MtM but i'm not sure if it worth for cutting something of my list. The tutoring / draw engine provided by top, confidant, BS and mage usually is enought to get what i want.

[jazzykat]

I don't understand the term " capitalize on your mana taxing" maybe is a maTTEr of language but if you can explain it i would be graceful.


Between Wasteland+Stifle/Trickbind you have a good level of mana disruption. Most decks that run these cards (Canadian Thresh, Dreadstill, New Horizons) also run Daze and/or Spell pierce to take advantage of the mana that you are already denying your opponent.

I don't see how wasteland fits into the strategy of the deck except that it's nice with stifles which are nice with Dreadnoughts.

I hope that makes my idea clear enough for you to answer.

[GoldenCid]

Between Wasteland+Stifle/Trickbind you have a good level of mana disruption. Most decks that run these cards (Canadian Thresh, Dreadstill, New Horizons) also run Daze and/or Spell pierce to take advantage of the mana that you are already denying your opponent.

I don't see how wasteland fits into the strategy of the deck except that it's nice with stifles which are nice with Dreadnoughts.

I hope that makes my idea clear enough for you to answer.

Perfectly clear. When i constructed de list i say: "Oh, i have no daze. Does it really matters?" Sincerely i didn't find place for it running counter - top the same goes for spell pierce. I don't know. Should i cut 3 CB and 1 top in foavour of 4 Daze / pierce???
Once counter - top is set i feel safe but i understand that drop top the CB and have enought mana to activate it takes time but well i like running confidant + counter - top.
A change that i see useful is cut 1 Pithing needle for 1 Executioner's capsule to make a spot removal slot regarding needle just to the side? Is this wrong??

[jazzykat]

I tried a similar list to the old ones with 4 MD Spell Snare and was really digging it as well. I also frequently use the painter:blue and reb in the board which becomes obscenely useful if they already happen to be playing blue.

[GGoober]

Grats GoldenCid. I built a similar BUG list a year back and did well in my local tourney. It had Trinkets, Bobs, Goyfs, Dreadnoughts, Painterstone combo lol. But I agree that green is no longer relevant with the speed of today's format. Just UB is the way to go, and now with Jace 2.0, I might work on your list to see what I can cook up.

Next to see decks like Dreadstalker get back to the meta! I think these decks have been forgotten but actually work really well in the meta so far.

[GoldenCid]

Grats GoldenCid. I built a similar BUG list a year back and did well in my local tourney. It had Trinkets, Bobs, Goyfs, Dreadnoughts, Painterstone combo lol. But I agree that green is no longer relevant with the speed of today's format. Just UB is the way to go, and now with Jace 2.0, I might work on your list to see what I can cook up.

Next to see decks like Dreadstalker get back to the meta! I think these decks have been forgotten but actually work really well in the meta so far.

Agree. In the last days i was thinking that the only use i'd give to goyf is in a "flip board" to avoid Grips and needles sideboarded. It could be 4 Goyf + 2 Stalker (classic) or 4 Goyf + 2 Jitte or even 4 Goyf + 2 Meloku!! Keep stifle dreadnought pack in and boarding the painter- stone. This because with increase of frequency that i see Emrakul in the boards...and off course some survivals run it MD.

[Khell]

Hi All,

A fan of Next Level Painter coming back to MTG after a long hiatus. I do tend to use white as a secondary color instead of black. Here's my deck.

4 x Sensei's Divining Top
4 x Counterbalance
4 x Painter's Servant
4 x Grindstone

4 x Brainstorm
4 x Ponder
4 x Enlightened Tutor

4 x Counterspell
4 x Force of Will

4 x Swords to Plowshares

4 x Flooded Strand
4 x Misty Rain Forest
1 x Academy Ruins
3 x Islands
4 x Tundra
4 x Hallowed Fountain

Was thinking of putting in Engineered Explosives since I can recur it with Academy Ruins and Jace as another win condition but I can't think of anything to take out ... Do you think it would be wise taking out Counterspell just to put in 2 Engineered Explosives and 2 Jace TMS?

Any thoughts, comments and suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

Cheers.

[keys]

A few Ancient Tombs might be nice to accelerate into an early Grindstone kill, or play Top and activate on the same turn, or turn 3 Jace, etc. The Hallowed Fountains are really unnecessary. Fetches + duals + basics is flexible enough for 2 color.

4 Ponder is too many, especially with 4 E. Tutor. If you're going to add EE, I would play Trinket Mage instead of E. Tutor anyway. It's card advantage instead of disadvantage, and will get most of what you need (Top, Grindstone, EE). Then I would include 1 EE, 1 Pithing Needle, or 1 Relic of Progenitus/Tormod's Crypt

So I would make the following changes:

-4 Hallowed Fountain
-4 Enlightened Tutor
-2 Ponder
-2 Grindstone
-1 Sensei's Divining Top
-1 Counterspell

+3 Ancient Tomb
+1 Seat of the Synod
+3 Trinket Mage
+3 Spell Snare
+2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Pithing Needle

[rogue.nine]

In case you are curious my CBTop-Painter list looks ~like this (at work doing this from memory)

4 Cbalance
4 Force of will
4 Brainstorm
2-3 Trinket Mage
1 Jace TMS
1 Tezz

4 Top
4 Painter Servant
2 Grindstone
1 Tormond's Crypt
1 Pithing needle
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Engineered Exploisives

3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Stp
1 Oring

21-22 Lands
Fetches/ basics/duals/ and 1 academy ruins

In my experience ensnaring bridge and pithing needle are mvps. Too many decks in my meta are just not prepared mainboard to deal with them and if nothing else it slows them down enough for you to assemble your combo and win.
Also I enjoy the stability of a two color mana base.

Other thing I have considered doing is just to go combo control drop white and Countertop and go : TFK/LEd's/Ancient Tombs/Dazes/Petals for fast mana and more 0 mana protection.
Or go Black for Drituals/Cabal Rituals/tutors and discards instead of blue.

I just have no time to test and brew and I've been satisfied with the flexibility and resilience of my current list and having a plan B/c in Jace and tezz is nice.

[GoldenCid]

Nowadays ancient tomb with counter - top is a bit auto kill...if you want to speed up your deck i highly recomend running black for dark confidant.

[rogue.nine]

^hence i said i was considering dropping Countertop in those builds.

Also are you implying that confidant would speed up the deck or are you saying that if I were to pick an alternate color for a combo build to go black citing confidant as an additional reason for that color? Cause

[GoldenCid]

I used to play this deck "full combo"...yeah 4 Fow, 4 Daze, the tombs and so on, no c - top, no jace, no confidant. In that time, i remember, you could counter some threats drop your guys and win. With the auge of spot removal and the "edict" ramoval you can't just drop nought or painter without expecting a removal effect in response...moreover, pridemage wasn't printed in those times...so you have to backup your stuff or simply recover it from your library. C - top and D. confidant do that respectively.

[Khell]

Thank you for the reply, keys.

Wouldn't it be better removing Ponder instead of Enlightened Tutor? Enlightened Tutor syncs with Counterbalance if you do not have any Sensei's Divining Top in play and allows you to get any artifact or enchantment from the deck which literally allows you to fetch your combos whether it be Countertop or Painter's Stone. The only drawback is that it goes to the top of your deck instead of your hand which is a card disadvantage of some sort.

Also, do we really need to put in Ancient Tomb if we are not going for the early kill but instead, control the game? I do see your point in putting in Ancient Tomb for the early grind or dropping Jace TMS though.

Lastly, I'd like to hear everybody's thoughts on playing Tezzeret instead of Jace. Jace TMS is a game-breaker but so will Tezzeret since the deck runs 12 - 16 artifacts with Academy Ruins to recur these.

Cheers.

[GoldenCid]

Thank you for the reply, keys.

Wouldn't it be better removing Ponder instead of Enlightened Tutor? Enlightened Tutor syncs with Counterbalance if you do not have any Sensei's Divining Top in play and allows you to get any artifact or enchantment from the deck which literally allows you to fetch your combos whether it be Countertop or Painter's Stone. The only drawback is that it goes to the top of your deck instead of your hand which is a card disadvantage of some sort.

Also, do we really need to put in Ancient Tomb if we are not going for the early kill but instead, control the game? I do see your point in putting in Ancient Tomb for the early grind or dropping Jace TMS though.

Lastly, I'd like to hear everybody's thoughts on playing Tezzeret instead of Jace. Jace TMS is a game-breaker but so will Tezzeret since the deck runs 12 - 16 artifacts with Academy Ruins to recur these.

Cheers.

Honestly i would not run other splash than black. It give us much cards for this meta: Perish, extirpate, plague (the best ones for side).
Off course tutor puts on top whatever you want but it's not enought in this aggresive meta. Being predictable is not good.

Tezzeret is awesome indeed, but i wouldn't cut jace or anything else to run him. May be if you play tombs he worths a little more but...

[ivanpei]

This needs a bump, I think the Tezzeret 2.0 really adds alot to this deck. This is already UB and already runs Jaces. IMO Jaces should be swapped with Tez 2.0. Will this bump painter back up to Tier 1 or at least tier 1.5?

[GoldenCid]

This needs a bump, I think the Tezzeret 2.0 really adds alot to this deck. This is already UB and already runs Jaces. IMO Jaces should be swapped with Tez 2.0. Will this bump painter back up to Tier 1 or at least tier 1.5?

Don't you thinkng that this is an appresurate question?

[ivanpei]

True, its still too early. However I'm seeing it from another point of view and would like the thoughts of fellow sourcers on how he will do in painter. Sure he is the bomb in affinity etc etc. Affinity is a power house aggro deck and tezzeret is a souped up finisher. However Tez seems pretty good to me as a super impulse in an artifact based combo deck (ie painter). He digs for components against control and is a gassy bomb while being able to protect himself against aggro by turning painter/grindstone/top/seat of the synod into a pretty big blocker. Seems good.

[jazzykat]

Generally speaking, when I was considering the list almost exactly 2 years ago the metagame was similar to now except there was no "jace the awesome sauce" and the aggro lists were a bit weaker.

Regardless my strategy was to overwhelm the opponent with: 1. The combo 2. Goyf or Bob 3. Counterbalance/top lock.

JaceTM means your CB lock is less secure and your control matchups get nearly unwinnable as the game goes on unless you become more control.

Edit.: phone cut off last thought.

Therefore, I feel the direction is to try the UR combo version from the last 2 scg. The reasoning is that aggro is still too slow and control needs to dedicate more resources to the board and attrition battles. Therefore it pays to be faster and redundant.

[GoldenCid]

In the last days i was wandering: is there any possibility to make a doulbe combo deck? I mean thopter - stone, with white for tutors and blue.

maybe the combo pack could be:

2/3 Thopter
1/2 Sword
4 Painter
2/3 Stone.

Any idea for the list?

[RogueMTG]

In the last days i was wandering: is there any possibility to make a doulbe combo deck? I mean thopter - stone, with white for tutors and blue.

maybe the combo pack could be:

2/3 Thopter
1/2 Sword
4 Painter
2/3 Stone.

Any idea for the list?

I had considered this in the past, but never really got farther than where you are now.

I could never get past this point, maybe you can :smile::

"Sure it's possible, but what problem is solved by adding the second combo? It seems like a lot of the same hate cards are good against both..."

[GoldenCid]

"Sure it's possible, but what problem is solved by adding the second combo? It seems like a lot of the same hate cards are good against both..."

No problem is solved. Just maybe winning faster or gain time for the lifegain if needed. Maybe with thopter we'd be less sensitive to spot removal compared with goyf or dreadnought.

[SMR0079]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37127

Caleb's version has been fairly successful, or at least much more successful then the controling builds. Can anyone really make a solid case why one would play the controling version over the Caleb's?

[ivanpei]

Caleb's looks really weak to STP. Welder does not work as gas when you are having your painters plowed/pathed. His version is uber fast, which is okay in the current meta. Intuition + Welder is a combo too. Interesting list with LED as accel. Most people would be surprised to die suddenly to T3 Painter + Stone + LED= Win. I'm sure the surprise factor won him alot of games because people were not expecting LED and did not leave mana open for STP.

[kues]

How this deck beats Emrakul.decks? Just grind, then tormods + grind again next turn? O you have to do something else?

[ivanpei]

Grind, Mill whole Deck, Emrakul Trigger on, Crypt the yard. Emmy trigger resolves but there is no yard left. Nothing gets shuffled in, opponent loses (unless he casts an instant before Emmy's trigger resolves). Also, he boards into show and tell- emrakul after G1, which helps I guess.

[TkDodo]

Hi all,

I'm new to the format, and I wanted to take this painter list to a local tournament soon. Without further ado, here it is:

1 Academy Ruins
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Ancient Tomb
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Swamp

4 Painter's Servant
4 Dark Confidant
4 Trinket Mage

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Red Elemental Bast
1 Pyroblast
2 Fire//Ice
2 Daze
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
2 Grindstone
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Engineered Explosives

SB:

2 Pyroblast
3 Thoughseize / Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Pithing Needle
1 Firespout
2 Pyroclasm
1 Meekstone
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Perish

Just wanted to know what you guys think about the card choices in general. I was also wondering why nobody seems to think about including Thoughseize in the side.
I think it's a good way (well, somehow the only way) to get rid of Krosan Grip, which really hurts for Counterbalance as well as the combo. For that matter, I thought about playing Inquisition of Kozilek, because in all my testing, I found myself only one time wanting to take a card above cmc 3 (really most of the time, I take a Grip), and the lifeloss can mean the difference. After all, I'm still loosing life to Tomb, Bob, Fetches and FoW. Not that I really care about lifeloss, just wanted to know the general oppinion with regard to this being a combo deck which normally doesn't care about Planeswalkers, and mostly, not even Natual Order.

Further, i was wondering how most of the decklists, especially the 3 color ones, can live with only 19 lands. With stifle and wastelands being everywhere, I see myself screwed a lot with 21 lands, and I would be uncomfortable cutting one. After all, the combo is quite mana intensive. I thought about the impact of too many lands when it comes to Counterbalance, but I haven't experienced any drawbacks so far. Further, a lot of Counterbalance lists run more than 21 lands.

Also, somtimes, I find myself struggling with the decision what to side out. Mostly, I know what I want in, but not what comes out. Some insight of more experienced players would be highly appreciated.

Thanks,
TkDodo

[SMR0079]

Caleb's looks really weak to STP. Welder does not work as gas when you are having your painters plowed/pathed. His version is uber fast, which is okay in the current meta. Intuition + Welder is a combo too. Interesting list with LED as accel. Most people would be surprised to die suddenly to T3 Painter + Stone + LED= Win. I'm sure the surprise factor won him alot of games because people were not expecting LED and did not leave mana open for STP.

Caleb's list beats one removal spell all day, two removal spells are more difficult and require that you slow down. It is much more powerful then any othe painter list I've seen. It goes off with protection on turn four very consistenly. Turn two kills happen more then you may think, requiring three cards and two lands. The hands with double intuitoin and a sol land are also pretty sweet.

We have been messing around with his list a bit trying out a trinket mage package that includes Relic so you have a way to beat Emrakul game one. Tried replacing 3 Tops with Ponders to up the blue count and add more shuffl effects, this also led to cutting a Mox Oppal.

Not to mention this is a blue based combo deck that crushes Merfolk, no small feet. Resolve an early Welder and watch the fishies squirm!

[kues]

The old UGR-CounterTop version (With goyf + trinket package) is playable anymore?
Or the new welder versions are better?

Regards!

[GoldenCid]

Hi all,

I'm new to the format, and I wanted to take this painter list to a local tournament soon. Without further ado, here it is:

1 Academy Ruins
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Ancient Tomb
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Swamp

4 Painter's Servant
4 Dark Confidant
4 Trinket Mage

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Red Elemental Bast
1 Pyroblast
2 Fire//Ice
2 Daze
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
2 Grindstone
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Engineered Explosives

SB:

2 Pyroblast
3 Thoughseize / Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Pithing Needle
1 Firespout
2 Pyroclasm
1 Meekstone
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Perish


Thanks,
TkDodo

You list looks correct. What you could do is cut 1 trinket due to confidant. confidant is a great draw engine and with 3 even with 2 mages you'll find what you need. On the other hand, i'll try to find place for a second win cond...i think it's good for the deck. You can choice goyf or dreadnought as you wish. I'm not sure how blast are doing the think, the same for fire//ice...although they are good cards...

[ajfennewald]

I playtested against the Caleb list with my zoo deck and absolutely destroyed it. Granted the pilot was not experienced with the deck and my zoo build has 15 removal spells (4 path,4 bolt,4 chain, 3 helix) plus 4 QPm and 3 grips and 3 rebs in sb. Alos i run a maindeck karakas with 3 kotrs which blanks the back up plan pretty well

[Morim_Brightsmoke]

In a list like the one that TkDodo posted does it not make sense to run Welder as an additional combo piece/protection spell, or is that only a good idea in a deck like Caleb's where you are more all-in and run things like 3x LED and 4x Intuition?

[GoldenCid]

The old UGR-CounterTop version (With goyf + trinket package) is playable anymore?
Or the new welder versions are better?

Regards!

Every version is playable!! In the last few days i was thinking in an old UBG version with post side switch:

http://www.deckcheck.de/deck.php?id=12993

I'm not sure if i would run BEB maindeck but i like de idea of thoughseize but, the life loss doesn't like me, maybe i'd cut them for dazes.

[TkDodo]

What you could do is cut 1 trinket due to confidant. confidant is a great draw engine and with 3 even with 2 mages you'll find what you need. On the other hand, i'll try to find place for a second win cond


Actually, I found that my second win cond is the Trinket Mage/Bob beatdown. I was suprised how often that led to victory. I also thought about adding Dreadnaught/Stifle to the mix, but then again, you need wastelands so you can bring the stifles to good use as mana disruption package. This would lead to an even more controlling list. The question would be what to cut. Redblasts are really good, as often stated, they are only dead against matchups you already have an edge over, as the most difficult matchups are imo merfolk and other blue based aggro decks, or other counterbalance decks. I'm not sure about the fire//ice myself, as i often side them out in favor of massremoval (pyroclasm, perish) or better spot removal (more redblasts). However, they do get rid of utility creatures which are either very good (like dark confidant, metalworker or goblin lackey) or very dangerous for the combo (like goblin welder, phyrexian revoker or qasali pridemage). Except for countering or "wasting" a redblast on them once a painter is down, you have almost no option of getting rid of them, so fire//ice comes in pretty handy most of the time. I talked to someone recently, who is playing a similar list to mine. Pretty much the only difference was that he played 5 REB, where I only have 3 REB and 2 fire//ice. He said that his worst matchup is aggro, as e.g. he does not have many options of getting rid of a first turn lackey.



In a list like the one that TkDodo posted does it not make sense to run Welder as an additional combo piece/protection spell, or is that only a good idea in a deck like Caleb's where you are more all-in and run things like 3x LED and 4x Intuition?


I think I don't run nearly enough artifacts to support Welder. With LED an Intuition, as you said, he becomes really nuts. Caleb's list obviously is a lot faster than mine, while the version with black becomes a lot more controlling, while still being able to combo off with protection as early as, albeit unlikely, turn 2-3.



Every version is playable!! In the last few days i was thinking in an old UBG version with post side switch:
http://www.deckcheck.de/deck.php?id=12993

I'm not sure if i would run BEB maindeck but i like de idea of thoughseize but, the life loss doesn't like me, maybe i'd cut them for dazes.


I think BEB are dead more often than REBs, and painting everything red doesn't do any additional good things (like making every card pitchable to force).
I also like the idea of Thoughseize, and I played them main for some time, too. I eventually moved them to the side as they did a lot more for me in game 2 than in game 1 (especially, taking krosan grip).

However, the posted list also only plays 19 lands. Am I missing something obvious here? I know that we play a good filter package with Brainstorm, Ponder and Sensei's Divining Top, but 19 seems such a low number. Like I said, i feel uncomfortable keeping a one land hand with just an SD.Top or a Brainstorm, and with 19 lands, 0 or 1 land hands will happen about 20% of the time.

[rogue.nine]

Is there any historical precedent for running a green splash painter list for Seedtime?

With painter out it becomes a straight time walk for 1G and green gives access to sideboard cards such as krosan grip and goyfs as a backup plan.

[ivanpei]

@ Rogue 9. Seedtime can only be played during your turn, even though it's instant. So your opponent has to cast an instant on your turn, not so good against Zoo/Goblins or other aggro decks where ideally you want the time walk against.

I like the Caleb list, It's more all in which is fine, but the surprise factor is fleeting. It's super fast and pretty consistent against counterspells. It can also beat removal. But can it beat Counterspells/discard and Removal? The way I see it, it can beat 1 Force or 1 STP/Pridemage, but can it beat multiples? I know that all combo decks have trouble against these kind of decks but what I like about the old painter lists was that they had an awesome late game with all bobs and countertop. The UBx lists used to shred control decks and were pretty good against aggro too. But looking at how fast the meta is right now, Caleb's list is probably the best choice. I miss the old days of topping/bobbing into the combo though.

Edit:

Anyway I had a funny idea, not sure if it's any good but I'm just throwing it out there. What about a bant Painter? You get Goyfs which are the Ideal back up plan against Emmy/Proggy and also enlightened tutor. I also prefer a Noble/GSZ based accel suit because those dudes cast cantrips/attack. Here's a list:

4 Noble
4 GSZ
4 Goyf
1 Pridemage
4 Painter
2 Grindstone
1 Trinket Mage
1 Top
1 Jitte

3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Jace TMS- Loose
2 Daze/Misdirection/ 1 more Trinket + 1 Jace- Loose

4 Trop
2 Tundra
1 Savanna
4 Misty
4 Heath
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad arbor

Some not so obvious synergies: GSZ as the glue. GSZ accelerates, finds Goyfs for the beat down plan, grabs Pridemage for Needle AND if you have a Painter in play naming Green, Grabs a Trinket Mage that can grab a Grindstone. This gives the deck + 4 Tutors. Enlightened is obviously the cheapest and best tutor for the deck and if you are going beat down, tutoring for Jitte is pretty GG against Zoo or anything with alot of removal. Turns even the lowly Noble heirarch/Dryad arbor into an instant threat. Even Painter/Trinket Mage bashes :)

[PanderAlexander]

I like that list ivanpei, when I saw the guy ask about green splash my first thought was GSZ as well, that card is insanely powerful by putting Painter right in to play. I know you said you're using bant colors, but even the bant counterbalance lists all splash red now so maybe a red splash for this would be good for red blast effects since we get more ways to get Painter. BEB maybe a substitute though so no need for splash.

[Koby]

GSZ ..., that card is insanely powerful by putting Painter right in to play.

GSZ only works on Green creatures. It only enables the rest of your deck once you have Painter out, however.

[lordofthepit]

I like that list ivanpei, when I saw the guy ask about green splash my first thought was GSZ as well, that card is insanely powerful by putting Painter right in to play. I know you said you're using bant colors, but even the bant counterbalance lists all splash red now so maybe a red splash for this would be good for red blast effects since we get more ways to get Painter. BEB maybe a substitute though so no need for splash.

Can you actually put a Painter's Servant into play with Green Sun's Zenith, absent one already in play? I was under the impression that the color-changing effect doesn't work until Painter's Servant is already in play, so you can't search for it.

[ivanpei]

@ Pander, a Red splash is definitely a good Idea. Gives you firespouts after board vs Zoo too. Where your plan is just dudes+ removal FTW.

@ Lord, nah you can't GSZ for painter without 1 Already in play. You can go for anything (mainly trinket) Once painter is in play naming Green. @ Pander, I think BEB main is a better idea because it pitches to Force. Since burn/Zoo is such a shitty matchup, BEB maybe pretty good too. I'll play BEB in the Daze/Mis-direction slots.

Cheers for the ideas guys. I'll go home and play around with the list.

[PanderAlexander]

Ah ya, forgot that clause in GSZ, I remember all the old cards by heart but not the new ones.

[(nameless one)]

However with the green splash, you can use Fauna Shaman to look for your Painter's Servant.

[ivanpei]

However with the green splash, you can use Fauna Shaman to look for your Painter's Servant.

That is a great idea, how did I forget about that? I'll throw in a single copy to GSZ for.

@ Pander: BTW I'm getting a friend to order all my missing pieces for the UR painter list you were are running (just missing welders +misdirection). Quick question, only 5 fetches? I'd ideally like 7-8 fetches with 4 tops, 4 brainstorms. What do you think about cutting 1 Volc and some seats/furnace for fetches? Did you have any trouble with getting metalcraft? Btw, only 3/3 Show/emmy? I'd probably run 4/4 or non at all. Cheers!

And how do you board for the emmy plan? I'm guessing -4 Welder, -3 LED, - 4 Grindstone, + 3 show, +3 Emmy, + 4 Blast effects, + 1 spellbomb (Cause it cycles?) Or do you keep the welders in and the painters out (so you can cycle all your artifacts with spellbomb)?

[PanderAlexander]

@ Pander: BTW I'm getting a friend to order all my missing pieces for the UR painter list you were are running (just missing welders +misdirection). Quick question, only 5 fetches? I'd ideally like 7-8 fetches with 4 tops, 4 brainstorms. What do you think about cutting 1 Volc and some seats/furnace for fetches? Did you have any trouble with getting metalcraft? Btw, only 3/3 Show/emmy? I'd probably run 4/4 or non at all. Cheers!

And how do you board for the emmy plan? I'm guessing -4 Welder, -3 LED, - 4 Grindstone, + 3 show, +3 Emmy, + 4 Blast effects, + 1 spellbomb (Cause it cycles?) Or do you keep the welders in and the painters out (so you can cycle all your artifacts with spellbomb)?

I wanted to fit more fetches in too but you can't, as it is right now there is 5 fetches and 5 fetchable lands (4 volcanic and 1 island). There shouldn't be more fetches than targets.

I never sided out 4 grindstone, maybe 1 but I kept that combo in and sided S&T as another combo. Most games I sided in S&T I took out some combination of Welder/LEDs/trinket mage/and rarely opals.

[jazzykat]

As the starter of this thread and having won a TON of prizes with the old list (use at your own risk, very outdated) I am very happy to see how the discussions continue to go on and painter thrives in the new format randomly dream crushing opponents.

I am wiling to edit and/or provide critique if someone would like to pull together a primer as I feel each evolution of painter is taking it from one level to the next.

First there was Epic Painter, then Next Level Painter (based on Brassman theories), then UR Welder/Painter. On the other part of the family tree are the Imperial/Enlightened Tutor Painters. The decks play quite a bit differently. Does anyone feel a strong willingness to bring the evolution to the masses?

[nodahero]

I would actually enjoy doing something such as this but I lack the requist background info... If anyone can send me even snipits of background info I could attempt to tackle it.

[SMR0079]

As the starter of this thread and having won a TON of prizes with the old list (use at your own risk, very outdated) I am very happy to see how the discussions continue to go on and painter thrives in the new format randomly dream crushing opponents.

I am wiling to edit and/or provide critique if someone would like to pull together a primer as I feel each evolution of painter is taking it from one level to the next.

First there was Epic Painter, then Next Level Painter (based on Brassman theories), then UR Welder/Painter. On the other part of the family tree are the Imperial/Enlightened Tutor Painters. The decks play quite a bit differently. Does anyone feel a strong willingness to bring the evolution to the masses?

Great idea. Having a primer that outlines the development of various painter strategies would be better then having multiple threads for the various incarnations, most of which are no longer competitive.

Perhaps Caleb Durward could contribute to the development of the current strategy. I would love to see him write on the topic on ChannelFireball then just paste some sections in the primmer.

[ivanpei]

Yeah I'd love to read an updated primer. I'm currently trying a ubw version. Gsz proved too slow. Here's my list:

4 painter
4 stone
4 etutor
4 top
4 brainstorm
2 ponder
4 seize
2 duress
3 mother of runes
4 bob
1 ensnaring bridge

3 led
3 mox opal
4 seat
8 fetch
3 scrub
2 sea
1 tundra

I play 4 seat so I can guarantee the t2 brainstorm into fetch. I've found it to be equally fast as the UR versions because I also play opals and LEDs. The improvement is a move away from colorless sol lands. I feel that sol lands are sometimes awesome, sometimes terrible as I wish they were colored. Moving away from Force solves the blue count problem and the led problem. Discard is better if you are using LEDs. I don't want to dump my hand, activate stone and die to stp on painter. Enlightened is the most efficient Tutor if you cut the sol lands and mom is insane as a protection card and an early game blocker. Bob is obviously really good at drawing the force/ stp or winning you the game.

Bridge is a panic button against swarm strategies. Stick it and you can take your time assembling the combo. No counterspells means you should be emptying your hand very quickly.

[tsabo_tavoc]

@Caleb & Alex's UR list: Congratulations on the recent strong performance!

I tested several games against Zenith Zoo (4 Bolt, 4 Stp, 4 Waste, 2 Qasali) and went 6-2 (4 plays, 4 draws), winning through 2 -3 hates consistently (1 loss was due to 3 Stp and 1 Waste). I think the MU is at least in Painter's favor.

Also, I don't know if 3 LED is the right number, as I tested 2 (1 subbed out to Crypt, aka maindeck Emrakul hate) and it seemed fine.

@Ivanpei's UWB list: I don't think the discard slots are justifiable as Spell pierce and BEB handle hates better, a UW list can look like:

4 Painter
4 Stone
4 E. Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Top
2 Trinket mage

4 Spell Pierce
2 BEB
1 Crypt
4 Mom/Orim's Chant

4 Tundra
1 Island
5 U fetch
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Ancient Den
4 Sol land
3 Mox opal
2 LED

[Wanderlust]

Why play Trinket Mage over Transmute Artifact? Is the UU cost a problem in the Welder/Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors lists?

[PanderAlexander]

Why play Trinket Mage over Transmute Artifact? Is the UU cost a problem in the Welder/Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors lists?

Trinket Mage is card advantage, you end up +1 card, transmute artifact in contrast is disadvantage, being -1 when all is said and done.

[ivanpei]

I did some tuning to my list. Here's the updated one:

4 Bob
4 Mom
4 Painter
4 Grindstone

4 Brainstorm
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Sensei's Top

4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress

3 LED
3 Opal

3 Seat
2 Vault
1 Den

8 Fetch
3 Scrub
2 Sea
1 Tundra

I know the black splash is not ideal in a deck that wants Sol lands and artifact lands, but I'm pretty sure it's worth it. Opal really helps in getting all 3 colours. I go off with LED more than half the time and I dislike dying to STP in response to stone activation AFTER I've dumped my counters into the bin. Bob is also very strong with Mom. The deck's curve is ridiculously low anyway. Other than painter, Everything costs 1 or 0. That brings me to another point, other than painter, you really have nothing much to power out with Sol lands, since we don't play intuition and play Enlightened instead.

@ Tsabo, I like your list, looks like we can agree that Enlightened + Mom are pretty good cards in this deck. I prefer black for the versatiliy of Discard in nabbing stuff like Revoker or Meddling mage. Bob is also Gas in this deck and a removal magnet.

[TheProfessor]

Hi Everyone!

Congratulations to Caleb and Alex's performances :D

You guys are awesome. Been following your designs for the past few months now. Always been a painter-gstone fan :D

Long time reader, first time poster.

@Panda -- Hi Alex! Congrats again. Wonderful photos at the Eroticon (I wish we had events like that here lol) I was just wondering if you guys ever tested "Washout" as a SB card in particular situations.

@ivanpei -- Couldnt agree more. Using Alex's list i've found that I usually get sworded/hated when i use the LED for activation. So I dont know about the 3 LED count. Maybe -1 led? and +1 Grave Yard hate? Can you give us an idea on what your testing it against? :D

Please dont be offended by my noobness, but is it really worth it to have blue in your list when the only blue cards is b-storm? I mean I realize its power and all but does it justify opening youreself to a particular type of hate? Such as Bloodmoon or wasteland effects?

@Tsabo-- How were your tests against Rock type variations (utilizing KOR/discard/removal effects) and Zenith? Did you find that your mana base under attack alot? Just wanted to know :D


Can you guys give me ideas on what strategies and testing you have done on these particular deck types? Your input on these would be invaluable. (I wanna write a primer on Caleb's design :D)

Decks:
Merfolk

Goblins

Affinity

Dredge

Enchantress

Storm/Bant/Ant types

Rock Variants (with discard)

Team America

Zoo

Sneak/Show

Post Ramp Eldrazi

Burn

Side Question:
I realize that starcity holds alot of events in the North America, is there something similar to that in Asia? :D

[PanderAlexander]

Hi Everyone!

@Panda -- Hi Alex! Congrats again. Wonderful photos at the Eroticon (I wish we had events like that here lol) I was just wondering if you guys ever tested "Washout" as a SB card in particular situations.


Welcome to the forums! Adultcon was more-so to just relax and get my mind off Magic since it was right next door :D Washout sounds like it has good synergy with Painter, but in half the situations will require you to have Painter out so red blast becomes better. As much as I hate the S&T/Emrakul in the SB, it is neccesary. For example against Chalice @ 1, there is no outs, can't cast REBs or Grindstone piece. The SB as-is seems pretty tight, Pithing Needles helped me all day long.



Decks:
Merfolk

Goblins

Affinity

Dredge

Enchantress

Storm/Bant/Ant types

Rock Variants (with discard)

Team America

Zoo

Sneak/Show

Post Ramp Eldrazi

Burn

Side Question:
I realize that starcity holds alot of events in the North America, is there something similar to that in Asia? :D

Not thinking about it indepth so I could be off:

Merfolk = Bye, effortless match

Goblins - Actually difficult, the mana denial, explosive power, and utility (incinerator is almost impossible to play around since it can't be countered and will kill Painter). It is important to play a very fast hand, the mid-late game is more favored for Goblins.

Affinity - Pretty easy, fast clock and revoker/pithing and be annoying, but need a fast hand since they have a fast clock.

Dredge - I'm 8-0 in tournaments against Dredge, I always thought Welder with Tormod's would be cute but the game never gets that late.

Enchantress - Make sure to get REBs for annoying enchantments such as Runed Halo and Leyline of Sanctity.

TES/ANT - In their favor, they can strip our lone FoW and go off faster than us. Do bring in REBs to counter Brainstorms and Ponders so you don't let them sculpt the perfect hand. Also Tormod's is a possibility to slow down cabal ritual and shut down iggy-loop. You have to have a faster hand, either they get lucky and have a great hand or you get lucky and have a great hand, see this video:
SCG L.A. Semi-Finals Painter vs TES (http://www.blip.tv/file/4954351?utm_source=player_embedded)

Rock/Junk - 50/50, they got a ton of discard and creature kill, but if you can land Welder and protect him in the version I was playing that counteracts a lot of it.

Team America - they don't have many counters or creature kill, just overwhelm them, but becareful of wastelands and playing around daze (I.E. what you would do for Merfolk)

Zoo - Difficult, a ton of creature removal with a fast clock, only gets worse post-SB. This is one of the primary reasons for the S&T/Emrakul SB plan.

Sneak/Show - Difficult, combo is useless without GY hate, and impossible if they run Progenitus. You have to become a winnie beatdown with counter backups.

Post-ramp Eldrazi - Difficult, we can't combo them, nor can we counter anything important, they ramp up mana and cast uncounterable Emrakul. Post-SB is also hard since if we S&T they run Eldrazi too.

[unicoerner]

I wonder, too, how strong blue is anymore if we just play it for the brainstorms?

I just tested a BWR build. Not sure how strong welder is without intuition, but red has atleast the good blasts, of which i play 2 main.

On thing i liked about painter was that he makes some weak cards, like REB in houses, which in your version ivanpei is no longer the case.

You testet this deck a lot and i believe you know what you do, but i feel that we shouldn't decrease Painter's power

[ivanpei]

Perhaps dropping blue may be the best option, but c'mon, Brainstorm! I kinda feel very out of place when playing combo without brainstorms or maybe I'm just traditional. I haven't had problems against wastes so far. I've tried to build it enough redundancy in the manabase to play around 1-2 wastelands. Bloodmoon on the other hand, is a different story.

I mainly test against Wasteland aggro (Like gobbos/Tribal). I also test against the decks that I own like Bant etc and I've found Bant exceptionally difficult to beat with the UR versions. I assume the opponent is fairly intelligent and would actually counter the Intuitions and not the Intuition targets. Since a topdeck welder can still weld back the components from the yard if Intuition resolves. I've found that if Bant Forces the intuitions and keeps STP/Pridemage for painter in response to activation, the MU is dreadful.

My UBW version is actually much better against this MU as mom/bob are a house. Against heavy disruption, Bob is invaluable and against aggro, he is a Phyrexian arena as you usually lose 0-1 life off him as the curve is so low. He is also a removal magnet which keeps removal of my painter against Control/Midrange.

I definitely miss the red blasts. They are so good. I may considering cutting the brainstorms for Redblasts and splashing red instead. I may have good MUs against decks with STP/Force but I sometimes just randomly die to a T2 Revoker on Grindstone. This when the flexibility of Painter + REB is most valuable.

[ivanpei]

Perhaps dropping blue may be the best option, but c'mon, it's Brainstorm! I kinda feel very out of place when playing combo without brainstorms or maybe I'm just traditional. I haven't had problems against wastes so far. I've tried to build it with enough redundancy in the manabase to play through 1-2 wastelands. Bloodmoon on the other hand, is a different story.

I mainly test against Wasteland aggro (Like gobbos/Tribal). I also test against the decks that I own like Bant etc and I've found Bant exceptionally difficult to beat with the UR versions. I assume the opponent is fairly intelligent and would actually counter the Intuitions and not the Intuition targets. Since a topdeck welder can still weld back the components from the yard if Intuition resolves. I've found that if Bant Forces the intuitions and keeps STP/Pridemage for painter in response to activation, the MU is dreadful.

My UBW version is actually much better against this MU as mom/bob are a house. Against heavy disruption, Bob is invaluable and against aggro, he is a Phyrexian arena as you usually lose 0-1 life off him as the curve is so low. He is also a removal magnet which keeps removal of my painter against Control/Midrange.

I definitely miss the red blasts. They are so good. I may considering cutting the brainstorms for Redblasts and splashing red instead. I may have good MUs against decks with STP/Force but I sometimes just randomly die to a T2 Revoker on Grindstone. This is when the flexibility of Painter + REB is most valuable.

[TheProfessor]

Welcome to the forums! Adultcon was more-so to just relax and get my mind off Magic since it was right next door :D Washout sounds like it has good synergy with Painter, but in half the situations will require you to have Painter out so red blast becomes better. As much as I hate the S&T/Emrakul in the SB, it is neccesary. For example against Chalice @ 1, there is no outs, can't cast REBs or Grindstone piece. The SB as-is seems pretty tight, Pithing Needles helped me all day long.

Thank you for your input. I was just thinking about Washout during one of my games where me and opponent were locked (i cant grind him or he had many many tokens). During the game I keep thinking how nice it would be to reset haha

Yes good point on the chalice. Havent had an opponent with chalice yet. I'll try that out next time i simulate.

I wanted to ask if anybody ever use wurm coil engines main deck? I've been testing that tech recently and it usually surprises the Rock decks or heavy creature decks when I cast it or weld it into play. (-1 LED and -1 Trinket) I know it depends on the meta but has any of you tried it?


Merfolk = Bye, effortless match
Can somebody concur to this as well? Personally I have the same experience

Goblins - Actually difficult, the mana denial, explosive power, and utility (incinerator is almost impossible to play around since it can't be countered and will kill Painter). It is important to play a very fast hand, the mid-late game is more favored for Goblins.
Yeah had that trouble with them as well. But I decided to plug in wurm coils and it helped out alot. Has anybody tried that tech?

Affinity - Pretty easy, fast clock and revoker/pithing and be annoying, but need a fast hand since they have a fast clock.

Dredge - I'm 8-0 in tournaments against Dredge, I always thought Welder with Tormod's would be cute but the game never gets that late.

Enchantress - Make sure to get REBs for annoying enchantments such as Runed Halo and Leyline of Sanctity.
I usually have trouble with the Leyline of Sanc. As it negates my intuitions and couldnt fetch key cards.

TES/ANT - In their favor, they can strip our lone FoW and go off faster than us. Do bring in REBs to counter Brainstorms and Ponders so you don't let them sculpt the perfect hand. Also Tormod's is a possibility to slow down cabal ritual and shut down iggy-loop. You have to have a faster hand, either they get lucky and have a great hand or you get lucky and have a great hand, see this video:
SCG L.A. Semi-Finals Painter vs TES (http://www.blip.tv/file/4954351?utm_source=player_embedded)
I get what you mean. Thank you for that input. I will take note of that. How about High Tide variations? I'm sure its the same advice?



Rock/Junk - 50/50, they got a ton of discard and creature kill, but if you can land Welder and protect him in the version I was playing that counteracts a lot of it.
[I]Thanks for clarifying that. I kept wondering if painter really had no chance against this deck. Been having alot of trouble with that deck archetype. As they counter most of my SB tech(emrakul) and most Main board guys die from the hate T.T[I]


Team America - they don't have many counters or creature kill, just overwhelm them, but becareful of wastelands and playing around daze (I.E. what you would do for Merfolk)
[I]Thank you i'll take note of that[I]

Zoo - Difficult, a ton of creature removal with a fast clock, only gets worse post-SB. This is one of the primary reasons for the S&T/Emrakul SB plan.
[I]Noted[I]

Sneak/Show - Difficult, combo is useless without GY hate, and impossible if they run Progenitus. You have to become a winnie beatdown with counter backups.
[I]Gotcha[I]

Post-ramp Eldrazi - Difficult, we can't combo them, nor can we counter anything important, they ramp up mana and cast uncounterable Emrakul. Post-SB is also hard since if we S&T they run Eldrazi too.
[I]Have you playtested against that type of deck? I mean I can understand that this type of match archetype wont show up often (as prices for a single Candle stick costs 200bucks lol)[I]


@Alex-- Thank you for your wonderful inputs. As far as changes go still sticking to the X1 Trinket and X1 Misdirection? You brewing something new for the Knightquest tourney?
@Ivanpei- Lol I feel the same way too man. I know brainstorm is an awesome card its just I felt that forcing a 3rd color for just brainstorm might be a little too risky? Black does have some okay draw cards? eg. sign in blood (i know eeewww..). Bob is awesome. I have to admit this as i was beaten to death many times by them (thank you rock/junk/discard variants). How goes play testing?
@Unicoerner -- Yes I agree regarding the REB and pyroblasts. Do you play this deck variant? How was your experience VS the decks above?

General apology: Uh...I have to apologize to the other people reading this forum post as I realize i'm not in the correct Deck archetype. I will create a new Primer soon for U/R painter citing "Caleb" and "Alex" variants and reason for card selection.

If the Hatfield brothers are reading lol Congratulations to the Hatfield Brothers for their placing in Atlanta. Their plays were magnificent :D

[ivanpei]

I have decided to stick with blue because brainstorm is just too good. I prefer Duress/Seize/Moms over Redblasts because it's common sense that you will see STPs more often than MD Needles and Revokers. I'll have a couple of blue blasts in the board to come in because those are the most flexible protection/removal spells. I don't play force so I can safely painter for Red instead of blue.

I'll just suck up the MD lost to a resolved revoker. I don't see as much dragon stompy/challice aggro which I doubt I can beat MD anyway. Revoker/Chalice @ 1 and Blood Moon are all GG cards. That said, my UBW list packs alot of gas @ a very fast speed. I can outgas control with 4 tops, 4 bobs, 4 moms (mom becomes card advantage if she survives a turn). The deck is still insanely fast with a T3 goldfish very common and T4 if I keep a slower hand. My slow hands usually have mom/thoughtseize so I can slow my opponents clock enough to squeeze through the win against aggro.

I'm getting my welders soon so I'll post a comparison of the 2 decks once I've tested both enough.

[ivanpei]

Welders arrived, yay! Anyway first impressions of the UR list is that the synergy in the deck is enormous. Force/REB with Painter is such a great combo. The LED problem is a bitch, but that only really matters if you are under alot of pressure and must go off with LED, otherwise you can wait a turn and go off next turn. Pitching LED to Force= Priceless. I really like Pander's swap of Trinket for 1 misdirection. I've found Trinket to be pretty slow and not as versatile. 1 seems to be okay. I'm also of the opinion that 2 LED is enough, since the deck has the stompy lands and opal. Cut a LED for something? Possibly a Third blast?

[Sloshthedark]

@TheProfessor - I've tested nearly everything except the Wumrcoil =D, its not blue (2x Inkwell, Sharuum the Hegemon, Sphinx of the Steel wind, Sundering Titan and combinations ranging 2-3 maindeck beasts), short notes:

Inkwell - can hardcast, slow, does nothing
Sharuum - no more than 1 use, buys a turn, strong with other guys
Sphinx - perfect, races nearly anything, resilient but not sword proof, hardcasting is nearly impossible
Sundering titan - bad, except T2 welder lock, hardcastable, does nothing lategame

Wurmcoil - will test it, hardcast friendly, no evasion, isn't blue =/ .. maybe only one you need not to play 4 LEDs, that sound promising,

by my experience reanimation plan feels like an overkill, its not worth it, most time you can win without it anyway and wish these would be other cards

I'm strongly missing the "out of the box" card in there I like.. like a singleton Berserk in New Horizons =) .. Misdirection doesn't fill the place, I think its actually ridiculously bad in the list...


I'm currently on 2x divert instead which are great in my black heavy meta, just can't decide on the pyro, divert, LED/ Trinkets, toolbox, LED configuration

solution for the chalice is only Engineered Explosives which is pretty suboptimal =) or rearranging SB, which is even worse

I don't think TES/ANT matchup is bad, depends strongly on the build and playskill of the player, U/B ANT and Doomsday ANT is favourable by my experience, UBw is slightly worse, unfortunately I dont have any TES player around nowadays

@ivanpei
cutting LEDS? =O .. I don't know how you win your games but I often do with intuitions off the Top, LED hand discards for EOT weldering, all the T1, T2 kills are with LED...it enables you to kill T2 without playing a single land! ... 2 LEDs? heresy - cut a dual instead

I think its good to realize that unlike other painter decks this is a combo, not a control with combo finish

[unicoerner]

Ancient Grudge may be an asnwer for the chalice on 1 problem+ we can even rebuy it with the Opals.

I don't know how much i like the mothers. I don't see the need for them right now.
Entlightened were strong for me

[ivanpei]

@ slosh, I know that cutting LED sounds bad, but it's possible because the deck is pretty fast even without it and double LEDs are pretty terrible. I never really want to see LED until I'm going off, so 2 seems like a fair number. Also, it's not a must to go off Turns 1/2. Going off turn 3 is the sweet spot for combo decks as Turn 4 is usually the critical turn for Aggro. Though for max speed against opposing combo, 3 is probably better. Misdirection is a good card that people don't really recognize. It is more or less Force 5. It can counter a counterspell AND redirect a removal spell away from painter to an opposing creature or your own welder when going off. The fact that it munches blue is irrelevant as Painter makes everything pitchable. Early game, redirecting a Thoughtseize/Hymm= Awesome sauce.

[Sloshthedark]

@ ivanpei I think the problem is that most time you want to see painter as the last card in the combo, or you can play it fast enough to benefit from it, Force pithing Intuition hurts... the deck has less protection that builds before, even I - playing 3 blasts 2 Diverts - feel I cant afford falling into control role too often
on the other hand opponents often do not realize I can win with 0-1 cards in hand with protection, virtually out of nothing, I think thats the strenght that LED fully supports, otherwise its difficult to play against average deck like bant with a good player piloting it, also helps get things out of your hand and save the painter

why I don't like Misdirection - Force in Painter deck is actually bad for the card disadvantage drawback which really hurts here and is compensated by the Servant to good, 5th force is the same problem but doesn't counter key spells, is just limited protection that costs precious cards

with hymn its 2 for 3, with thought seize its 2 for 2 in favor of caster, he chooses the card ...

I find myself often going off with horde of mana but lacking cards, usually 1 card - blast - in hand, and I want another one on the top of the library, not force, not misdirection - thats why I prefer Divert, the actual misdirection effect is highly desirable in the deck but not in that crippling misdirection form .. Divert is 1 for 3 with hymn, 1 for 2 with discard, is better against zoo than blasts, they have them postboard too, some opponents tend to play around them G2, which is highly desirable

maybe its just the play style, I feel agresive approach is the one deck fully supports and I dislike weakening the option

[TheProfessor]

@ Sloshthedark : Thanks for you inputs guys. I get your logic regarding the usage of Divert and misdirection.


@ Ivanpei: So how goes the testing? You playing the Durward variant right?


Hey guys... I just finished writing the Primer for U/R Painter. Would like some of your guys to critique it before I post it on the Source and another website.

:D Would any of you guys be interested? Of course I would be more than happy to share credit? :D Your inputs are invaluable and I would be more than happy to receive them. :D

(might need help in formatting and image stuff :p)

[TkDodo]

I went to my first tournament yesterday in a local store. It was a 25 people tournament, and I took 9th place going 3-2, which is ok I guess.

Here’s my current list:


1 Academy Ruins
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Island
1 Swamp

4 Painter's Servant
4 Dark Confidant
4 Trinket Mage

4 Force of Will
2 Daze
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Fire/Ice
2 Grindstone
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Engineered Explosives


SB:

2 Pyroblast
1 Pithing Needle
1 Meekstone
2 Pyroclasm
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Perish
3 Engineered Plague
2 Misdirection


R1 against White Staxx (0-2)

He mulls to six and I keep a fairly good hand with a painter and a redblast. He opens with horizon canopy, mox diamond discarding city of traitors. I play fetchland, go. He goes wasteland - crucible. I fetch for basic and have to play brainstorm because my only left land is academy ruins. I find no other land, so the game was pretty much over for me here. I pass the turn and he plays another mox diamnd and a mishra's factory, and makes some damage the next turn. I find a volcanic island, so i play academy and painter on blue so I can redblast the crucible next turn. he wastes and o-rings the painter. ouch. I brainstorm again next turn and find two more lands and another painter, so I get painter out and redblast his crucible with wasteland in his yard. Meanwhile he drew some cards with canopy off of crucible. He o-rings the second painter and I have to daze a chalce @1. I EE@0 his two mox diamonds, leaving him with little mana himself and get grindstone and sd.top off of a trinket mage, followed by counterbalance. He has two mishra's in play, which both meet fire, so he's really screwed now. I get double bob in play, and start beating him, and this is where things got really ugly. I have to force a ghostly prison to keep beating, and I have him on 6 life with 4 creatures in play (2 bob, 2 mages) while I was on 5 life myself. He plays a magus of the tabernacle. EOT I top and rearrange the 3 cards on top, which are bob, grindstone and trinket mage. He is outtapped, upkeep I pay 4 mana to the magus. I was ready to loose 3 life to double bobs and alpha strike him. He was already packing his cards when I reveal the top two cards, only to see they are bob and trinket mage to get me to zero. I do _not_ know how this could have happened, I was terrified. Never happened to me before and hopefully will never happen to me again.

G2 I had pretty much no chance, having to force a second turn trinisphere and a third turn chalice@1 leaving me almost without cards in hand. He resolves another trinisphere and a smokestack, follwed by magus of the tabernacle and mishra beatdown just when extra turns were announced.

So this game should have absolutely been a draw, but my stupidness made this a loss. This will definitely take me some time to get over with ;)
I know I could’ve stalled the game a little bit in g2 to get a draw, but that’s not what I consider to be fair play.

R2 against absolute random deck (2-0)

By now, I do not know what he was playing. I assembled the combo both games pretty quickly and didn't even sideboard. I saw Savannah Lions, Deftblade Elite, City of Brass and hardcasted Sky Hussar...

R3 against some version of pox (2-0)

He played a version of pox with buried alive / bloodghast and hatred. G1 I had a good hand with T3 CB-Top. He got Bloodghast and plays Hatred for lethal, which I daze. Trinket Mage finds Grindstone, Top finds Painter with double Force as a backup ftw. I side Misdirections because I expeted some Hymns, maybe Sinkholes and some Graveyard Hate.
G2 I have a nutdraw with painter / trinket mage and FoW in the starting hand. He gets a bloodghast out and tries the hatred trick again, which meets force. I play a crypt and a top, assemble some mana and am ready to go off. I let him resolve his buried alive on his three other bloodghast, and exile his yard in response to the landfall triggers.
To be fair, he had some bad draws because He saw no removal / discard both games.

R4 against Ascension (1-2)

G1 he opens with Martyr of Sands and second turn Serra Ascendant, going to 30 life pretty quickly. I EE@1 some creatues, and SD.top - shuffle 4 times, only to find more lands. Being on 3 life, SD.top finds me the combo, I get it out and activate, he swords but taps himself out, and my last card in hand was a daze. Really close game.

G2 he has the obv. Leyline of Sanctity, I get double Painter and double Bob with SD.Top out pretty quickly, draw tons of cards and loose some life, too. I clear the board with a Pyroclasm just in time and play another bob. Top finds a Grindstone, I reb his Leyline and activate, just to find out that he boarded EMRAKUL in against me. Wtf. Still, I have trinket mage in hand and can grab relic of progenitus to win next turn. He reshuffles his GY and topdecks another leyline. Ouch. I fail to find another redblast and his 6/6 flying/lifelink seals the deal.

G3 he has leyline again, which makes me have to assemble a 4-card combo now. My starting hand was far away from it though. He gets some kitchen finks, ranger of eos and other stuff in play and beats me fast. I get painter, stone and reb on 5 life, so I hope maybe he has Emrakul in hand an go off. He had not.

He basically 3-outed me in g2 (well, to be fair, he probably had some more outs, but I was a big favorite I guess), but yeah, I think that's the way it goes some times. I guess I got lucky the first game, too ;)

R5 against burn (2-1)

A bad matchup for me, since I normally can’t be fast enough before he burns me to death. And that’s exactly what happened g1.
G2 I side out all my redblasts for misdirections and a needle (expecting lavamancer, which I did not see btw), since I can’t name painter on blue anyway.
I get the combo with backup in T4 when he was outtaped, I had a pretty good hand I guess.
G3 was one of the weirdest matches I ever played. He does his normal burning stuff, I open with first turn grindstone, second turn CB and third turn painter. I name him on blue since I have fow and misdirection in hand, but no other blue cards. With double-backup though, this should be enough. He bolts the painter, and I reveal the needed third land to CB. I happily misdirect it to his keldon marauders, he chain lightnings, i fow. He passes the turn, I draw the land and activate, he saccs his two lands to fireblast the painter in response. Ouch. The game goes on with him having no permanents and me in topdeck mode. He draws land, burn, and I find myself a trinket mage for sd.top, being on 2 life. He draws a second land and plays pyrostatic pillar. I find nothing in the top 3 with cmc 2, so I shuffle and go to 1 life, top again and find nothing :/. So the pillar resolves, basically making it impossible fore me to play any more spells. He’s on 20 so I start the trinket-mage beatdown. He tries to burn me a couple of times, suffering from this own pillar, but my counter-top is able to counter all his price of progress and magma jet, finding a bob on top. With him being on 6, he plays a lava spike and goes to 4. I find no cmc 1 spell on top, so I have to put top on top. Luckily, he does not have a spell for 2 or a fireblast, he passes the turn. I attack, and with him on 2, he can’t play any spells either and dies next turn to trinket mage.

Pros:
Acceptable result for a first tournament.
Nice opponents.

Cons:
Me playing like I never played Magic before in the first round, embarrassing myself in front of the whole store ;)
A sideboard which needs to be changed, as there were many many artifact decks running around.