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Goblin Snowman
07-08-2009, 05:18 PM
I saw Vial in another build before.
Is vial worth it, to cut Ponder?
You are running 16 pitchable cards for force only (which is the minimum and you don't want to pitch Sower or Wonder often).

Vial is a porn star. I would honestly rather cut Tarmogoyf than Vial for where I'm playing. The card negates (or really helps against) Wastelocks, Dreams, Counterbalance, and is always a great way to either hold off attackers or gank small creatures when they do attack.

Currently it's at 17 pitchable cards (Sprites, Brainstorm, Force, War Monk, Wonder, Sower). I do run into issues where I lack a card, but Ponder sure isn't going to be high on my list of things to put in. I've not had a great experience with the card so far. It's "good", but it's not a creature, and since my list has few blue sources, using my only one for the turn can shaft me.

@Henrik
Meddling Mage is "decent" (not spectacular) against both Combo and Ichorid, as you can name Dread Return or Therapy against Ichorid. Ichorid is a pretty hard deck to hate out without Crypt or Relic though.

GGoober
07-08-2009, 05:56 PM
I find Canonist to be in general better these days against combo since it slows their tutoring ability down, giving you time to grab counters. Teeg is also very good and I would play Teeg above all since he halts Landstill and Stax, making him much more flexible than Canonist but he does not stop a combo player from tutoring bounce and remove. I guess it depends on the type of combo that's going on. Canonist stops their tutoring and slows it down and Teeg stops the card draw and win-condition. the only problem I have with Meddling Mage now is that he/she's blue and dies to REB, which is popular in NLS (next level storm) builds.

Waikiki
07-08-2009, 07:21 PM
This is the build I've been playing lately. So far so good.

// Lands
4 [A] Tropical Island
3 [B] Savannah
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [US] Forest (4)
1 [A] Tundra
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [US] Plains (3)

// Creatures
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [ALA] Rafiq of the Many
4 [CNF] Noble Hierarch
2 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
1 [JU] Wonder
1 [BOK] Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 [CS] Jotun Grunt
1 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite

// Spells
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [LRW] Ponder
3 [NE] Daze

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [TO] Llawan, Cephalid Empress
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle

I found the faeries to be underwhelming in such an aggressive meta I play in. I never have mana open in the early game to cast stutter and I do want to be able to counter so I choose daze to replace it. So far I've been very pleased.

Im currently testing out jotun grunt as a maindeck grave hater and a survival creature recycler. Also It's been a long time since I wanted to tutor up a sower or drake to steal a creature so I've replaced it with a 2nd monk and test out how much I really miss it.

The build is very strong and I suggest giving it a spin.


<edit>

as a list I would like to test now I'd go for:

// Lands
4 [A] Tropical Island
3 [B] Savannah
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [US] Forest (4)
1 [A] Tundra
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [US] Plains (3)

// Creatures
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [CNF] Noble Hierarch
1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
1 [JU] Wonder
1 [BOK] Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
3 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite / Spell snare
1 [LRW] Sower of Temptation

// Spells
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [LRW] Ponder
3 [NE] Daze

Goblin Snowman
07-09-2009, 10:30 AM
Waikiki;

I noticed that between your two lists you cut Ralfiq. Was testing showing him to be poor (I still haven't gotten around to finding room for him). Also, do you like Trygon more than Harmonic Sliver or another instant 3cc way to kill Counterbalance?

Waikiki
07-09-2009, 10:32 AM
Yes it's a test to figure out if I really miss him or if he's just win more. It sure is bad ass but testing will tell if I really need him.

Trygon really is a pain in the ass for quinn/stax and other forms of permanent based decks. Also it pitches to fow. and has a bigger body + flies (together with exalted)

Waikiki
07-12-2009, 05:38 AM
Here (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27722) is another T8 out of 132 man. The deck is picking up more players nice!

Jak
07-12-2009, 02:06 PM
Here (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27722) is another T8 out of 132 man. The deck is picking up more players nice!

I like the list. 8 cantrips is good, but I still don't like 18 lands since the deck is just better when you have all the mana you need.

Jak
07-12-2009, 10:39 PM
Went to my first tournament in a long, long time and got first with this deck. I was playing pretty poor all day but the deck was strong enough to get me a 3-0-1 record.

I won against RG Stax, Uwb Countersliver, went to time against UWGB Control (It played Intuition, Loam, Counters, Shackles, Counter/Top, EE, Goyfs, Trinket, etc), and beat Mono Red Goblins in the finals. I think the deck played well, but my opponents did make mistakes (like a big one) or got mana screwed so I wouldn't weigh this result heavily.

I played this.

4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
4 Forest
2 Island
1 Plains

4 Force
4 Swords
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Survival

1 Wonder
1 Squee

2 Noble Hierarch
2 Llanowar Elves
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Spellstutter Sprite
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gilded Drake
1 Eternal Witness
1 Trygon Predator
1 Vendillion Clique
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Rafiq

The mana base was budget but I didn't get mana screwed at all so I was lucky. The Hiearch and Elf split was for Meddling Mage... Kidding, the owner of the store only had 2 Hierarchs so I went with this. I got lucky and that didn't hurt me either.

SB
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Hydroblast
3 Spell Snare
3 Krosan Grip
2 Meddling Mage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Genesis

Goblin Snowman
07-12-2009, 11:44 PM
How useful were some of your singletons (Clique, Ralfiq, Drake). What cards seemed good and which seemed less useful?

Jak
07-13-2009, 01:07 AM
Clique was amazing all day. I think I flashed it in twice to block and kill and like another 2 times after their draw step. It was really good. Rafiq helped end the game versus Goblins and would have won me the game against the control deck had I kept it in. It was bad SBing. I cast Drake once and it got countered. The other times it got pitched to FoW or was Survivaled to get my engine going. Qasali showed up and won me the game versus the Stax deck. Trygon dismantled Counter/Top and hit a Vial. Witness was awesome to draw getting back K Grips or fallen dudes. I used it about 4 times. And finally Rhox won me the games against Goblins. I really liked the list (not the budget parts).

Waikiki
07-13-2009, 05:45 AM
Just entered the T4 of the mtgsalvation tournament (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=171255) with an outdated list.

My matchups so far:

Win:

CB top in top8
Faerie ninja still
Quinn
Soldiers
Mono U faeries

Draw vs merfolk

and lost 2-1 to major goyfsligh hand price price fireblast and fireblast fireblast chain.

Jak
07-13-2009, 04:41 PM
Just entered the T4 of the mtgsalvation tournament (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=171255) with an outdated list.

My matchups so far:

Win:

CB top in top8
Faerie ninja still
Quinn
Soldiers
Mono U faeries

Draw vs merfolk

and lost 2-1 to major goyfsligh hand price price fireblast and fireblast fireblast chain.

Keep us posted.

I just realized that I don't have any GY hate main or SB. Last weekend I got hurt because of it. I might try a Loaming Shaman in the main (if I can find room) and put some Crypts in the board. I also want to put Spore Frogs in because I could use some help versus aggro.

Windux
07-13-2009, 05:25 PM
I rather play Faerie Maccabre instead of Loaming Shaman.

Against Ichorid, Shaman is too slow.
Against Loam, you can kill Terravores and the engine, but Maccabre can stop the engine and making it untoturable at instant-speed.
Think: Exile != Wishable ;)

Of course, Shaman resets the game for a moment against Loam, but not forever.

Also, Maccabre is good against Landstill and Survivaldecks (removing Genesis+Squee or targets for Academy Ruins is great).

Jak
07-13-2009, 05:31 PM
I rather play Faerie Maccabre instead of Loaming Shaman.

Against Ichorid, Shaman is too slow.
Against Loam, you can kill Terravores and the engine, but Maccabre can stop the engine and making it untoturable at instant-speed.
Think: Exile != Wishable ;)

Of course, Shaman resets the game for a moment against Loam, but not forever.

Also, Maccabre is good against Landstill and Survivaldecks (removing Genesis+Squee or targets for Academy Ruins is great).

I was trying to go for something that didn't completely suck when you weren't playing against Loam, Ichorid, or Survival and Shaman can at least beat. IF I did run Macabre, it would be in the SB.

Waikiki
07-13-2009, 05:49 PM
jotun grunt has served great for me. But then again that much grave hate isn't need for me.

beastman
07-13-2009, 06:09 PM
Ive got to say, I blew this deck off at first as cut, but not that good. I was just testing it online against a big gauntlet, and not only is it a very strong deck (it plays survival, of course it's good), Its one of the funnest decks I've played in a long time.

Jak
07-14-2009, 02:04 AM
Ive got to say, I blew this deck off at first as cut, but not that good. I was just testing it online against a big gauntlet, and not only is it a very strong deck (it plays survival, of course it's good), Its one of the funnest decks I've played in a long time.

Awesome. I am glad you are enjoying it.

I fixed up the opening post a bit by adding some matchups, fixing a few mistakes, and just going through most things and adding a bit here and there to update it.

I also posted threads over on Starcitygames and mtgsalavtion so hopefully if you post in the future you can copy and paste it into those to keep them updated.

Guy I Don't Know
07-14-2009, 08:48 PM
in the last few pages i have notice some trying to find answers to ANT and one card i would recommend testing is orim's chant. In response to a way to generate 5 many ( for instance them play dark ritual dark ritual or a thresholded cabal ritual) You can cast orim's chant. Therefore they can not play ad nauseum and they also burn for 5 (which lowers the effectiveness of future ad nauseum) not to mention virtually countering the dark ritual/cabal ritual. It can also be used in response to infernal tutor when they are floating mana. Anyway, just a suggestion. It has some uses outside ANT but for the most part I see it as a strong but narrow card for ANT.

beastman
07-14-2009, 10:34 PM
Isnt MD gaddock teeg better? I don't think chant is that good, I'd rather put 2 canonist in the board.

Jak
07-14-2009, 11:58 PM
in the last few pages i have notice some trying to find answers to ANT and one card i would recommend testing is orim's chant. In response to a way to generate 5 many ( for instance them play dark ritual dark ritual or a thresholded cabal ritual) You can cast orim's chant. Therefore they can not play ad nauseum and they also burn for 5 (which lowers the effectiveness of future ad nauseum) not to mention virtually countering the dark ritual/cabal ritual. It can also be used in response to infernal tutor when they are floating mana. Anyway, just a suggestion. It has some uses outside ANT but for the most part I see it as a strong but narrow card for ANT.

I had it in my board to get the Storm MU up to where we should beat them every time postboard, but it just ended up not being worth it. It is really narrow and I wanted to devote my board to things that help out in a variety of MUs. Stuff like Meddling Mage, Teeg, Spell Snare, etc serve multiple functions. Now, I believe people were talking about the Storm MU preboard, so running stuff like Daze is probably necessary if you see it quite a bit in your meta.

beastman
07-17-2009, 02:37 PM
I've been trying out vendillion clique more and more in the main, and I have to say, he is one of the strongest creatures in the deck. Complementing the deck's overall tempo strategy, having great beating power, and even complementing sprite. I'm thinking of dropping a war monk and a sprite so that I can fit 2 MD.

Jak
07-17-2009, 05:58 PM
I've been trying out vendillion clique more and more in the main, and I have to say, he is one of the strongest creatures in the deck. Complementing the deck's overall tempo strategy, having great beating power, and even complementing sprite. I'm thinking of dropping a war monk and a sprite so that I can fit 2 MD.

I agree, I love it. However, I have hated it against some MUs, so I cut it down. I dunno, it has been doing really well lately so I may add the second.

Black Mass
07-18-2009, 12:00 PM
depends on meta, I guess. He's been great, but I replaced him with kira, great glass spinner and she/he has been doing wonders for me.

beastman
07-18-2009, 09:59 PM
The flash ability, and the fact that he helps your match against combo, all while being a great beater is just too much for me to justify not running 2 between main and side.

Windux
07-21-2009, 10:56 AM
I saw the thread about a deck with Cephalid Constable.

What about running him as a 1-off in our deck?
With Wonder he can fly and we do have 5-7 exalted effects.

I'm going to try him instead the second Rhox War Monk.

GGoober
07-21-2009, 11:25 AM
My main troubles with the deck, at least in my meta is the 1 toughness of all my dudes, that gets nuked by Fire//Ice. I would recommend that outside of Hierarchs and Sprite and Cliques, no creature should have less than 2 toughness or the deck just dies to a lot of red hate.

Will pick up the deck sometime again.

beastman
07-21-2009, 01:57 PM
Goyf, war monk, gaddock teeg, sower. Less than half of your creatures have less than 2 toughness, and those creatures that do more than pull their weight. Spellstutter is amazing in the format, it's basically a flying creature that can counter most of the best spells in the format on its own, and clique can take the best card away from your opponent and beat savagely.

Jak
07-21-2009, 09:54 PM
My main troubles with the deck, at least in my meta is the 1 toughness of all my dudes, that gets nuked by Fire//Ice. I would recommend that outside of Hierarchs and Sprite and Cliques, no creature should have less than 2 toughness or the deck just dies to a lot of red hate.

Will pick up the deck sometime again.

Is Fire/Ice relevant enough to change the deck up for it? It isn't even that crippling unless you only had 3 mana sources and 2 of those being Hierarchs. Sure, Clique getting hit is rough, but most of the time a Sprite or Force will counter it.

@Cephalid Constable
Meh. If you have a ton of Exalted effects out, shouldn't you win?

beastman
07-21-2009, 10:18 PM
Cephalid constable is actually pretty cool, I tested a few games with him and he manage =d to win a game here and there. I might keep him as a 1 of.

Jak
07-22-2009, 12:17 AM
Cephalid constable is actually pretty cool, I tested a few games with him and he manage =d to win a game here and there. I might keep him as a 1 of.

How did he win the game?

beastman
07-22-2009, 12:37 AM
landed him early with a heirarch and just locked cats out of the game.

Jak
07-22-2009, 12:47 AM
landed him early with a heirarch and just locked cats out of the game.

So wouldn't he be weak as a one of just to tutor up? I won't deny that he can win games but tutoring him up turn 3 and laying him down turn 4, just to attack on turn 5 seems slow. I just don't picture him getting through much unless you have Wonder in the yard which means you should be in an incredible position.

I'll definitely try him because I am just theory crafting here.

beastman
07-22-2009, 12:02 PM
The fact is, if you have an exalted guy or two, and a form of protection, he will just end the game. Any of your other creatures will still take a good few attacks, and allow the opponent to draw an answer, where as with one swing, constable can set back the opponent way to far for them to come back.

Waikiki
07-26-2009, 10:36 AM
The fact is, if you have an exalted guy or two, and a form of protection, he will just end the game. Any of your other creatures will still take a good few attacks, and allow the opponent to draw an answer, where as with one swing, constable can set back the opponent way to far for them to come back.

So will goyf.

beastman
07-26-2009, 01:26 PM
Goyf takes a couple of turns to kill them, but one connection with constable just ends the game.

Jak
07-26-2009, 01:58 PM
Goyf takes a couple of turns to kill them, but one connection with constable just ends the game.

But look how much needs to be set up just to make him work. I didn't like him a ton in testing since he either pitched to Force when I was trying to take control of the game or it didn't matter if I grabbed him or Goyf because I was going to win in 2 turns anyway.

I'm going to a tournament today (just local) and am going to be trying out a new list. It basically came from wanting to add more cards that did a lot for me like Clique and cutting down on the cards that had narrower applications. Now, I still live the other list so hopefully after playing today I can find a happy medium.

beastman
07-26-2009, 02:54 PM
He takes a bit of setting up, but bouncing lands against storm the turn before they go off, bouncing thresh's lands, I guess I just like the idea of him way too much. Try it at the tournament today if you want and if he sucks for you I promise I won't get mad if you call me stupid.

Goblin Snowman
07-26-2009, 05:21 PM
I tested him a bit (had nothing much to do this weekend) and he was decidedly "meh". There were times where I would have triple Exalted and Wonder in the GY and he would be sweet...but at that point, almost any creature is capable of winning the game. Also, I never, ever wanted to tutor for him as opposed to a Venser or something whenever I really needed something bounced immediately. His greatest use was being a Blue card and a Creature so I could pitch him to both FoW and Survival.

Jak
07-26-2009, 10:45 PM
I ended up taking third out of 14 with a record of 3-1. I played against jank and won basically, so meh.

The list did meh as well.

18 Lands

4 Survival
4 Force
4 Daze
4 Swords
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

2 Noble Hierarch (still need two more)
3 Nimble Mongoose
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Eternal Witness
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Trygon Predator

1 Squee
1 Wonder

Daze was pretty bad and they will be changed back to Sprites. I disliked having so few creatures (around 18), so I think going back to 3 Ponder is necessary. Unsure about Mongoose. It was meant to fill in the one drop spot since I was missing Hierarchs, be big later on, block Lackeys, and be decent against control. I didn't really play any relevant MUs other than Goblins so I can't rate the card.

beastman
07-26-2009, 10:53 PM
what did you lose to?

Jak
07-27-2009, 12:21 AM
what did you lose to?

Goblins. I just was never able to stop all his CA spells and got run over even when I did have 2 Goyfs and 2 War Monks out. It is really depressing. I am sure Spore Frogs would have helped, but I didn't run any in the board. Now, I beat the same deck and player 2 weeks ago, but those games were too close and he probably should have won the third game as well.

I am thinking of running 2 Spore Frogs, 1 Rhox War Monk, and 3-4 Hydroblasts just to deal with it.

beastman
07-27-2009, 12:43 AM
In all the testing and games I've had with RGBSA, I've never found fog frog to be that useful against a competent goblins player, as they can cycle incinerater, or fanatic him(assuming they still run him) on your turn and then alpha strike you.

Jak
07-27-2009, 01:03 AM
In all the testing and games I've had with RGBSA, I've never found fog frog to be that useful against a competent goblins player, as they can cycle incinerater, or fanatic him(assuming they still run him) on your turn and then alpha strike you.

Yeah, I know, but then that means that War Monks will survive or something. His list is different then the one I usually test against which has mana denial, a lot of lands, and then the best goblins. His forgoes the mana denial and extra lands for Goblin lords. In the end, it is just him alpha striking once his board is big enough. He attacked with Piledrivers with a smaller army to get my Goyfs since I had to block then just amassed a large horde via Ringleaders and SGC. I don't know how to play it.

beastman
07-27-2009, 01:07 AM
I retract my statement about fog frog because I completely forgot that this deck runs vial, which make frog a hardlock if you can keep a vial set at 1.

Jak
07-27-2009, 02:31 AM
I retract my statement about fog frog because I completely forgot that this deck runs vial, which make frog a hardlock if you can keep a vial set at 1.

I don't run Vial.

Goblin Snowman
07-27-2009, 10:11 AM
Jak - What is your current board, and what cards are you taking out in the Goblins MU?

Jak
07-27-2009, 01:58 PM
SB if I can remember was...

3 Hydroblast
1 Rhox War Monk
3 Spell Snare
3 Krosan Grip
2 Meddling Mage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Genesis
1 ??? (wouldn't have helped against aggro)

I was on the play game 2 so I sided out 2 Ponder and 2 Cliques wanting to leave Daze in. I put in 3 Blasts and 1 Monk. I plan to up it to 4 Blasts or a combination of Blasts and Path to Exile. I also might try throwing Stifle in.

beastman
07-27-2009, 02:38 PM
One of the things I liked most about this deck was vial. It allows you to spend your mana on things like abusing survival and genesis, without losing too much tempo.

Jak
07-27-2009, 04:11 PM
One of the things I liked most about this deck was vial. It allows you to spend your mana on things like abusing survival and genesis, without losing too much tempo.

What would you cut out for Vial?

beastman
07-27-2009, 04:24 PM
This is the list I'm running now:

2 forest
1 plains
3 heath
3 strand
4 tropical island
4 savana
1 tundra
4 tarmagoyf
3 spellstutter
4 heirarch
2 pridemage
3 rhox war monk
1 wonder
1 squee
1 genesis
1 sower
1 vendillion
4 survival
4 swords
4 vial
4 force
4 brainstorm

the sideboard isn't finalized, but I do have some meddling mages, grips, and teegs.

Goblin Snowman
07-27-2009, 04:27 PM
What would you cut out for Vial?

I ended up axing Ponder from my list pretty early on in testing. It just doesn't do enough for me to warrant inclusion. Plus, if you're running Vial, you don't want to crowd your 1cc slot too much. I'm already at 15 1cc cards between STP, NH, Vial, and Brainstorm.

Waikiki
07-27-2009, 04:46 PM
Vial really rox as a T1 or T2 play but topdecking it really is a pain in the ass imo.

Goblin Snowman
07-27-2009, 05:38 PM
Vial really rox as a T1 or T2 play but topdecking it really is a pain in the ass imo.

Vial is just about the strongest turn one play the deck can make. It negates Counterbalance, seriously helps against Wastelands and Stifles, and speeds the deck up more than any other card. While there are going to be times it's a poor draw (you have Survival with no creatures, you are digging for STP, w/e), it's still an alright topdeck due to the low CC of the deck. Within two turns of being played, it enables free, uncounterable Goyfs/Sprites/Drakes, and generally gets better from there. In terms of what I would rather see (Ponder vs. Vial), I would generally much rather see Vial.

beastman
08-06-2009, 10:39 PM
I've been testing this deck a lot more recently against goblins. Bringing in fog frog with chalice @ 1 is possibly THE most entertaining kill I've ever had against goblins. then I decided to be a dick and kill him with an unaided sprite.

Jak
08-06-2009, 11:01 PM
I've been testing this deck a lot more recently against goblins. Bringing in fog frog with chalice @ 1 is possibly THE most entertaining kill I've ever had against goblins. then I decided to be a dick and kill him with an unaided sprite.

Haha.

Well, I added 4 PtE in the SB. Hydroblast didn't hit enough and having 8 Swords helps immensely in the aggro MUs.

I have also cut Ponders in favor of 3 War Monks. I plan to try Vials once I am able to grab some but for now the Goblin MU has improved a lot.

Waikiki
08-07-2009, 02:57 AM
I got 3rd place at the mtgsalvation tournament. And im working on an edit version of the primer which contains my latest build. hold on.

Black Mass
08-08-2009, 09:05 AM
Jak, I don't think that cutting ponders is really the way to go. I like the three that are in my list, I REALLY need them to dig for answers against aggro decks and they help me find the much needed land against loam and other mana denying decks.

Windux
08-08-2009, 09:13 AM
They also help to find stuff like Jitte or Teegs or...every sideboard card which isn't in for Survival.

It's like "Woah I drop Survival and go nuts...else I just die".

Jak
08-08-2009, 02:05 PM
I am just testing without them since if I did add Vials, that would be the thing to go.

beastman
08-08-2009, 02:59 PM
This deck needs vial, plain and simple. Sure it can be moderately effective without it, but you can just blow control out of the water so much more easily with it.

Waikiki
08-08-2009, 05:53 PM
You can allready blow out control. vial is good but it sux as a topdeck. Explosives takes care of vial no problem. Every build that T8 so far hasn't used vial so I dont think saying this build needs it is the right way to go without alot of testing.

beastman
08-08-2009, 06:21 PM
I have done a lot of testing with the deck, and I really don't think the deck is as playable without vial.

Waikiki
08-09-2009, 02:18 AM
because? Also what list do you recommend?

Windux
08-09-2009, 02:36 AM
You all played the list with Ponder instead of Vial and said it is good.
Now, without any reason, the deck isn't playable without vial and Ponder is bad?

I don't see, whyI should cut Ponder for Vial.

Ponder is good for solutions and to dig for creatures and can stabilize the manabase.

Jak
08-09-2009, 04:28 AM
You all played the list with Ponder instead of Vial and said it is good.
Now, without any reason, the deck isn't playable without vial and Ponder is bad?

I don't see, whyI should cut Ponder for Vial.

Ponder is good for solutions and to dig for creatures and can stabilize the manabase.

I never said the deck wasn't playable without Vial. I did say I was going to test it. Having an open mind is what will take a deck to the next level. Remember when Counterbalance/Top was only played in the SB as 3 ofs? And then when it was in the MD, it was still a 3/3 split for a long time. Look how much better the decks (packing CB/Top) have gotten better since adding the 4th Top and the 4th Counterbalance.

At least test it. I haven't had much time, but it doesn't hurt.

beastman
08-09-2009, 09:48 AM
because? Also what list do you recommend?

I posted my list a page or two back. Also, I never said ponder was bad, I just don't play it. The thing is, you need some other sort of permanent to abuse if you don't draw survival, and vial has so much other synergy with the deck that I think it is a neccesary include.

Jak
08-13-2009, 08:07 PM
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Tropical Island
3 Savannah
1 Tundra
2 Forest

4 Aether Vial
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Rhox War Monk
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Eternal Witness
1 Trygon Predator
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Squee
1 Wonder

SB
4 Path to Exile
2 Rhox War Monk (one might become a Spore Frog)
3 Krosan Grip
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Meddling Mage
1 Genesis
3 Spell Snare

This is the list I have been testing and it has been pretty decent. I cut Ponders and a couple lands for Vials. I want to trim it down but I really like having the second Rhox, Pridemage, and Vendilion Clique. One Clique may become a Sower since if it is ever Vialed in at 4 it should be pretty devastating.

The SB is just a large list of cards that will get trimmed down depending on the meta. PtE has been great. The troubles I was having from Goblins was mostly holding them back just to not be able to handle a Goblin Chieftan that pumped all the little dudes. It also helps versus Merfolk and Elves to handle all of their Lords. I like the bears. They can shut down control, hold back combo, and Meddling Mage is great at stopping recurssion.

I really want to try it out outside of MWS, but cant for a bit so let me know what you think.

beastman
08-13-2009, 11:37 PM
I've never found predator to be very effective main. He's just a little too slow.

Jak
08-14-2009, 12:14 AM
I've never found predator to be very effective main. He's just a little too slow.

He is there to resolve against Counterbalance and it is blue. Wickerbough Elder could be decent.

elgoff
08-15-2009, 03:45 PM
Jak.-->

I really like your last build of the deck. I think I might give it a shot this sunday and I'll come back to give you some news on how the day went for me.

I'm usually a BIG fan of Trinket Mage and his package (Tormod's Crypt, Pithing Needle & Engineered Explosives). In this build, Trinket could also find you a Vial if needed. I really find that Trinket can tutor to find answers in games you have hard times winning Game1 (Dredge/Crypt, Planeswalkers/Pithing, Goblins/EE, Merfolks/EE...). I would like to fit it in but I really find it hard to remove anything from the list we have there.

Actually, I've builded the exact same thing except for -1 Wonder, -2 Rhox, +1 Genesis, +1 Spore Frog, +1 Eternal Witness. I'll switch a Witness for the Wonder, it's a good idea to fly over oposing 'Goyfs but I'm unsure about the Rhox... I'll give them a try and know after that if Genesis/Spore Frog were good enough over the sideboard!!!

beastman
08-15-2009, 04:05 PM
Jak.-->

I'm usually a BIG fan of Trinket Mage and his package

Heh Heh.

Jak
08-15-2009, 05:03 PM
Heh Heh.

Lol.

At Elgoff, I tried Trinket Mage a while back since getting EE gives the deck some nice removal for Counterbalance, Goyf, Mongoose, etc but it was just so mana intensive and slow that it was easier to get Predator or Sower/Drake (Although I am not running either one of these at the moment).

Going for the Spore Frog lock game 1 is interesting but removing Wonder is the wrong idea. One of the only ways to win with the Lock is having creatures that can fly over and beat. Zoo can just chump and draw burn, Goblins will probably put you low enough to SGC you out, and it gives Elves time to find an answer MD. Wonder is so crazy against aggro.

Rhox War Monk is also something good especially Vialing it in. I think it helps in more math ups than the Spore Frog lock, but still, let me know how the games go this weekend.

Waikiki
08-15-2009, 05:05 PM
imo the late game is allready heavily on our favor you guys should be focussing on the early game. My newest list is doing really good. It doesn't run any vials tho.

Trinket mage is indeed too slow.

Also going 4-1 at another online tournament. Will be taking the deck to tournament play 30th of august.

beastman
08-15-2009, 05:06 PM
In all fairness I don't think elves has an answer MD, but I agree wonder should not be cut, its amazing.

Jak
08-15-2009, 05:10 PM
In all fairness I don't think elves has an answer MD, but I agree wonder should not be cut, its amazing.

I thought Survival Elves had an answer or something. W/e it is still such a good card and is amazing with Rhox War Monk and the exalted mechanic.

Waikiki, can you post your list?

elgoff
08-16-2009, 11:30 PM
I finished in 10th position this sunday with this deklist:

4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Tundra
1 Plains
2 Forest

4 Aether Vial
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Rhox War Monk
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Eternal Witness
1 Trygon Predator
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Squee
1 Wonder

SB
4 Path to Exile
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Spore Frog
1 Genesis
3 Krosan Grip
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Meddling Mage
1 Gilded Drake
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress

3-2-1 with 33 players, Montreal, Face à Face Goyf-Walk.

[edit]

OK, first of all, I'll go with the list cards choice over the original Jak had done.

-1 Savannah, +1 Plains (there's a lot of Moon effect and Waste in my meta, so Swords is almost MVP)

Sideboard choice:
4 Path to Exile (Nice to having them here!!! I loved to switch Swords for Path when lige gain becomes relevant, also good VS Meddling Mage)
1 Rhox War Monk (Ok slot, some match up you just want them fast, especially Zoo, Goblins, Burn...)
1 Spore Frog (Just love it! Soooo good! Always in Game 2 with Genesis to Fog/Combo)
1 Genesis (Just love it! Soooo good! Always in Game 2 with Spore Frog to Fog/Combo))
3 Krosan Grip (Just love it! Soooo good! Can't go under 3x MVP sideboard card)
1 Gaddock Teeg (No use today, because I didn't face Landstill, nor Ultimate Walkers)
2 Meddling Mage (I'll cut one for sure, I think it's ok for me to fetch it when needed)
1 Gilded Drake (No use today at all, need to go with Waterfront Bouncer or Tradewind Rider or bye bye! I don't wanna play Tradewind, ? about Waterfront Bouncer...I probably wont put him or Sower either in next time)
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress (Just love it! Soooo good! The only thing post Natural Order you can answer to Progenitus, gives a hard time to Merfolks if they don't have an active Vial on the "battlefield ;)")

Before the tournament started I had 2 questions I was asking me...First 60 or 61 cards? The extra was the second Vendilion Clique for me. I went with 2x Vendilion Clique and I was really happy with that. Then, about my sideboard...14 cards, I had 2x Gaddock Teeg and I wanted to put 1 or 2 of those cards: Gilded Drake, Llawan Cephalid Empress, Kira Glass Spinner and Glen Elendra Archmage. I opted for cutting a Teeg and to go with Llawan and Drake. Now that I've played the tournament, Kira would have been a godess over Gilded Drake.

Now the rounds...I'll go with a brief deswcription 'cause I didn't wrote down my starting hands...but I did wrote some notes!

Fight1 vs Faerie Stompy (Seb)
1. I win die roll and keep my hand, I had Fetch + Hierarch and a lot of 1CC. I started with Fetch-->Tropical, Hierarch, go. Afetr that, I think seb went for Chalice for 1 stalling me foreever to finnally get Sea Drake in with 2x Swords of F/I...not much I could do, I scoop!
+ 1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress, + 3 Krosan Grip, -1 Eternal Witness, -2 Vial, -1 Rhox
2. I win drastically with an incredible hand. Accel into Survival-->Llawan for the win!
3. I remember that again I had Fetch + Hierarch and a lot of 1CC and seb had 3x Chalice for 1 in a row...the game took forever and I finally won the game staying at 2 lifes top decking Grips over Grips...
1-0-0

Fight2 vs W/B Weenie (Joshua)
1. It's a kid, he already knows his going to loose, so I don't even have to mindtrick my opponent!!! He start the game...Life total after game1 = -7/41 Damm, a flying Khox + Rafiq it's brutal!! I was abble to block several attacks from him due to Wonder in my graveyard...
-1 Eternal Witness, -1 Trygon, +1 Sprore Frog, +1 Genesis
2. I manage to keep Bob of the board twice. Killed him with an exalted Spore Frog...
2-0-0

Fight3 vs Zoo (Benoit Ross finished 7th)
1. I win die roll and keep my hand, I had Fetch + Hierarch but no other mana source. He bolted the Noble...got some little kitties + burn me to death.
-1 Trygon, -4 Vial, -4 Swords, +1 Rhox, +1 Sprore Frog, +1 Genesis, +2 Meddling, +4 Path
2. I have a hard time winning the game, he Path my Rhox twice...but I eventually win, really close. Lucky for me I named Lightning Bolt with a Mage (second turn) and my opponent had 3 in hand and 1 top deck the turn after!!!
3. Pretty even again...but my opponent his overwhelming me...with a Jitte and 2-3 creatures. I have Qasali on the board but I space out 2 turns before killing the Jitte... after that I don't have anything on the board and he has like 2-3 creatures still there!! Life points are 8 for me and 4 for him...he removes the extra counters on his Jitte to gain 4 lifes, then after that he cast Price of Progress, killing both of us at the same time (both players with 4x nonbasics)!?!?!?!? Bascally, he gave me that DRAW!!!!
2-0-1

Fight4 vs Merfolks (FX)
1. I got wrecked game1 pretty fast with Lord of Atlantis, Needle and Jitte.
-4 Vial, -2 Vendilion Clique, -1 Eternal Witness, +4 Path, +1 Llawan, +2 Grip
2. Llawan did the job...and a Grip on a Vial...
3. Close game but I eventually die over a smurf swarm, my opponent is at 5 lifes dying next turn...
2-1-1

Fight5 vs Survival-Progenitus GWB (Alex Hayne)
1. I guess I had a very good hand...my opponent scoop after I Forced his Natural Order!!
-4 Vial, -1 Rhox, -1 Eternal Witness, +3 Krosan Grip, +1 Sprore Frog, +1 Genesis, +1 Llawan
2. Again I have a very nice hand but with a lot of removal this time. He Thouhtseize me and take 'Goyf, I draw Survival next turn!!! I get the engine going third turn, get genesis/frog...and I killed him with a flying exalted Spore Frog...BANT Survival his just plain better.

Fight6 vs Canadian Thresh (Francis finished 4th)
We can't draw into Top 8 because he wont pass if we do. I would have made Top8 with that final draw (only me from the 4 players at 10 points before last round).

I don't remember any plays!!?!? I won game1 and couldn't close the others. Actually, Nimble Mongoose did all the job for him. He also Fire/Ice pretty often my Hierarchs...
3-2-1

After playing the deck, I found I was missing something in the deck. I needed more control spells, I don't know some counters, tutors, Spell Snare or even Daze would do. I didn't make the overall thinking to choose between all, it will come. I also didn't really like Aether Vial in here, the deck gets going way faster than the time it takes to put some counters on it. I think it's a little win more... I rather have some spells to protect or even fetch Survival... Sure it's gets you free critters online but it didn't help me win... it just added to the injure!

Jak
08-17-2009, 06:15 AM
I like the list :). What did you play and how did you lose/tie?

Waikiki
08-17-2009, 06:29 AM
yeah I would like some more detail ;)

elgoff
08-17-2009, 08:39 PM
I updated my last post with a little resume...

Jak
08-17-2009, 09:39 PM
SBing Vial out against Merfolk is the wrong play. I would have gone -1 Rhox War Monk, -4 Spellstutter Sprite, -1 Eternal Witness, +4 Path to Exile, +1 Llawan, +1 Grip or something. It sounded like you played against a Merfolk list with Needle, Jitte, and Vial which is weird all maindeck.

Canadian Thresh sucks with the burn and mana disruption. I have found that if you can get a solid mana base, you should win. This isn't easy though but Vial helps tremendously with the "mana" issues and getting rid of Nimble Mongoose.

I'm glad you liked the deck but Vial should have helped in the MUs you lost.

XiaN
08-18-2009, 05:04 AM
Long time reader and finally i managed to register to discuss my new favourite deck.

I played Bant Survival for some month on our weekly legacy tournament now and i allways did 2:2, 3:2 and stuff like that. I really like this deck. I'm a big fan of toolboxes and the UGW shard :D

So i registered to share some thoughts on this deck.

My current list


Creature [22]

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Rafiq of the Many
2 Rhox War Monk

1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Wonder
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 Cephalid Constable
1 Eternal Witness
1 Phyrexian Dreadnough

Instant [15]

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Stifle

Enchantment [4]

4 Survival of the Fittest

Land [19]

4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
2 Tundra

1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

Sideboard

4 Krosan Grip
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Genesis
1 Spore Frog
1 Meddling Mage
1 Gilded Drake

My meta is defined by Counterbalance/Top and a lot of controll.

StifleNought was a try. Never made anything, but looked good on the paper ^^
Cephalid Constable never did anything, too. Goes out.

I never boarded in Sporefrog and Gilded Drake. So maybe they are open slots too.

But now my questions :

- Ever list plays 4 Spellstutter Sprites. I tried them and they never did anything. I simply hadn't the mana open to use them and if i had, i never hit any spell. I simply used them as Forcepitches and moved them out soon after.

- In comes Daze. Never did anything either. But i personally never liked Daze since i play magic. Maybe i simply can't play them or i'm just pissed that they are such a bad draw in the mid/lategame. So they moved out.

- In comes Stifle. I love this card, but they didn't made well as well.

Maybe i should move in the Bant Charm. Against all the Eva's and Landstills in my meta sometimes i simply die to one creature big creature. Maybe Bant Charm helps there.

But now the reason i post this post :D

I'll do the "Never do it!" ... I will suggest to move Force of Will to the sideboard and play more pridemages and Bant Charm over the Force :confused:

With Bant Charm, Swords and Quasali we have more then enouth outs to preboard threads. We don't really fear anything other then combo preboard. And for matchups where we really need the force, we have it in the sideboard.

The problem i had with force is that we have no "I like to pitch you" cards in the maindeck.

Lets see what we can pitch, based on my list

Force ( Hum yeah ... don't want to pitch you )
Brainstorm ( No i wan't do pimp my hand )
RWM ( I want to play him )
Rafiq of the Many ( No i want to win fast )
Wonder ( ;) )
Kira, Great Glass-Spinner ( Maybe, but Kira fits better on the battlefield )
Cephalid Constable ( Yes i wan't to pitch you )

You allways remove a good and valuable spell. I know you allways have to remove "good" spells, but i feel that i don't want to remove any cards to force in Survival Bant. Simply because they are better on the board.

Waikiki
08-19-2009, 04:50 AM
I think your list is trying to do too much.

Faerie is a really tricky card to use. You do not really keep mana open for it if you could also land a goyf or survival or anything.

@ moving fow to the sb because you dont want to remove a blue card because they are too good. Maybe you are fowwing the wrong spell then.

If the spell your countering isn't that gamebreaking you want to pitch a rafiq for it,you shouldn't fow it at all and fight it some other way.

I play 3 spellstutters myself. I used to test daze but the landdrop is just too much.

Goblin Snowman
08-19-2009, 01:11 PM
I'd be interested in seeing how having effectively no Countermagic works out for you. I'm still at 4 Sprites myself right now, as my latest list ran something like 8 Faeries total, but since I ended up hating that list, I'll likely be cutting back. Also, I hate Daze. Hate hate hate hate hate. It always looks good when you have a Survival protected by it, but this deck is incredibly mana intensive, especially with Survival down.

XiaN
08-19-2009, 02:01 PM
Funny fact : I never had problems with taking a land back :cool: My deck ran good, when it hits 3-4 lands and the daze drawback never hurts on that land count. But yeah well ... daze didn't hit anything either :rolleyes:

Here is the list. I'm going to test it on a bigger ( 100 people up ) tournament next weekend. We'll see how it works out.



Creature [21]

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Rafiq of the Many

1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Wonder
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 Eternal Witness

Instant [15]

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial
3 Bant Charm

Artifact [2]

2 Umezawa's Jitte

Enchantment [4]

4 Survival of the Fittest

Land [18]

4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Tundra

1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains


I think 18 lands is very hard. Of cause, you have Hierarch and Vial, but ... duh ... i don't know :confused:

elgoff
08-20-2009, 12:14 PM
With 18 lands the deck runs pretty good.

There's only 2 or 3 decks that gonna hurt you for having that many lands.

For exemple Canadian Thresh with Wasteland on your duals and Stifle your fetches, Merfolks with the same spells but this is not our real problem with the 'Folks... Eva-MBC-Dead Guy and the like with Discard effect, Wasteland and Sinkhole will attempt to ruin you. Also White Stacks that gonna choke your ressources with Wasteland, Sphere, 'Geddon... That pretty much it about decks that hurt the mana base! That's why I prefer to have a couple of basic land in the deck, there's random dude playing those deck everywhere.

Black Mass
08-21-2009, 05:45 AM
Never thought I'd say it, but vial pleases me in many ways.
It keeps tempo going and can do neat combat tricks. I love it. I only play three though. 4 seems like overkill and I'd hate to draw it a lot late game.

XiaN
08-21-2009, 09:57 AM
After a talk with a friend yesterday we came up with the following list :


4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Rafiq of the Many

1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Wonder

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Counterbalance

3 AEther Vial
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Land [19]

4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
2 Tundra

1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

Or you can cut the vials and add another top and Vendillion Cliques.

The problem i have with this list is ... its very proactive, but i like the top in here. With all your shuffle stuff ( 8 Fetchies, 4 Survival ) you will have a decent quality output of threads. And of cause we have nearly the perfect curve for CB :laugh:

Waikiki
08-21-2009, 10:18 AM
imo CB doesn't go together with sotf. These 2 engines require alot of mana and then your stuck with wanting to do too many things.

Goblin Snowman
08-21-2009, 01:35 PM
imo CB doesn't go together with sotf. These 2 engines require alot of mana and then your stuck with wanting to do too many things.

I would agree here. Also, it's rather hard to cast Counterbalance reliably without changing the manabase around, and dropping some key green sources.

HPB_Eggo
08-21-2009, 02:32 PM
This is, at the moment, my favorite competitive deck in the format. I could use some help with my list, though, as I'm having trouble fitting certain cards in...

Main
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Tropical Island
3x Savannah
3x Forest

4x Noble Hierarch
3x Tarmogoyf
3x Spellstutter Sprite
2x Qasali Pridemage
2x Rhox War Monk
2x Glen Elendra Archmage
1x Rafiq of the Many
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob

4x Survival of the Fittest
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares

Side
4x Tormod's Crypt
3x Meddling Mage
2x Qasali Pridemage
2x Eternal Witness
2x Krosan Grip
1x Genesis
1x Wonder

I really like my list. The main problem is trying to fit in cards that I think would go really well, because it is very difficult to cut anything. Specifically, I am continually rotating out certain cards in an attempt to fit Ponder and Quirion Ranger, both of which work very well in the deck. Any ideas as to what could/should be cut, or just ideas in general, would be very appreciated.

Enigma
08-21-2009, 02:58 PM
3 Tarmogoyf can't be right. Never.

With Glen Elendra (which can be really good depending on the metagame), I would keep 1 Witness main.

So:

-1 RWM (Go to SB)
-1 Glen
+1 Goyf
+1 Witness

I would also cut daze or vial, because of the lack of creature you probably face with that much non-creature spells.

And would add

+1 Wonder
+1 Qasali
+1 Vendilion Clique
+1 2nd Glen or RWM, depending on the metagame.

That's just my 2 cents.

P-M

HPB_Eggo
08-21-2009, 03:54 PM
3 Tarmogoyf can't be right. Never.

Yes. Yes it can. Tarmogoyf is simply a big beater, and he's generally only a size up from Rhox War Monk. Regardless, with Rafiq you only need one to win the game, and three is enough that you'll generally see one even without Survival. He's also not pitchable to FoW, which is why I run a second Monk in place of the fourth.


With Glen Elendra (which can be really good depending on the metagame), I would keep 1 Witness main.

Genesis is better at creature recursion, IMO. The only reason to play Eternal Witness is for game two against anything running green or white, so you can recur Survival.


-1 RWM (Go to SB)

I could see that happening. Only possible choice for replacement is another blue creature, though, as I'm skirting the necessary blue count as is.


I would also cut daze or vial, because of the lack of creature you probably face with that much non-creature spells.

I hardly ever have that problem, except against decks that hate out Squee, and four more creatures isn't going to solve that problem.

I really like both vial and daze in the deck. Still, cutting one daze and/or one vial is not out of the question. The only problem is what to replace them with, as lowering my blue count is out of the question, I don't want to run Clique without Sower or vice versa, and Wonder is, IMO, much better in the SB, just like Genesis.

The most possible change going along these lines would be -1 RWM, -1 Vial, +1 Clique, +1 Sower, but I've never been a big fan of Sower, as I generally find myself grabbing her in the same situations I would grab 'goyf or RWM. I do like Clique, but I don't think running proactive disruption is the way to go in a deck that is full of answers.

beastman
08-21-2009, 06:25 PM
The thing about goyf is that he is easily castable, is almost always huge, and wins games on his own. Playing 4 in this deck is a given, and you never run fewer. So what if he doesn't pitch to force, he is the only card in the deck that needs no help to get there on his own.

Melwis
08-22-2009, 11:52 AM
I recently got my eyes on this deck and really love to play it. The first list I tried only packed Survival but I quickly added in Aether Vial because I felt like it would be perfect in the deck and it really is. SotF + Vial is just silly and with the quality of the creatures that the deck runs it's still very strong with just one of these permanents out.

Anyways, I stumbled upon Xian's list (on page 17 - post #331) that included CounterTop in the deck and couldn't help but to try it out myself. I took the exact same list except for these changes:

-1 Rhox War Monk
+1 Trinket Mage

-1 Plains
+1 Island

-1 Tundra
+1 Savannah

Trinket Mage should be very handy giving you the option to retrieve either Vial or Top when you've succesfully landed Survival and it has been useful. This is how the list turns out:

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [M10] Forest (1)
2 [M10] Island (1)
4 [B] Tropical Island
1 [B] Tundra
3 [B] Savannah

// Creatures
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
2 [ALA] Rafiq of the Many
1 [10E] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [JU] Wonder
1 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

The list also happens to run 2 Rafiq which i've found out to be strictly better. Coupled with Survival you can easily get the first Rafiq, play him and then swing with a creature that just got double-strike. After that swing however Rafiq is very likely to be dealt with by your opponent and the beauty of running two is that you can now (hopefully) execute another swing just like the one before. These swings just wins games. Also, by running 2 you're not as reliant on SotF to get Rafiq but instead you draw into him once in a while which is seldom something you don't like. The possibility of drawing 2 is minimal and if you do the first you play is surely to be removed soon or you can always use the other for FoW should you have that.

Any toughts on how to improve the deck further are welcome. If you think that CounterTop doesn't belong in the deck i'd suggest for you to try it out first, if you still don't like it then please tell why.

PS: The first time you read "Exalted" you're really not much impressed by it (I wasn't atleast) but now that i've played with a list running 10 creatures with the ability I realise how stupid it is. Especially with Rafiq + Wonder...

Waikiki
08-22-2009, 02:06 PM
imo CB doesn't go together with sotf. These 2 engines require alot of mana and then your stuck with wanting to do too many things.

Melwis
08-22-2009, 03:48 PM
imo CB doesn't go together with sotf. These 2 engines require alot of mana and then your stuck with wanting to do too many things.

People. The utterly perfection of this posts argumentation is far beyond anything I could ever dream to counter with and I will therefore tell you all to completely ignore the recent post I did in this thread that suggested adding CounterTop in this deck because Waikiki has clearly put alot of thinking and effort to come up with such a delicate and wonderful conclusion as this not to mention i'm sure he has done extensive testing with CounterTop in Surviving Bant, otherwise, how could he have this kind of reasoning that he is now showing us?

Goblin Snowman
08-23-2009, 01:33 AM
People. The utterly perfection of this posts argumentation is far beyond anything I could ever dream to counter with and I will therefore tell you all to completely ignore the recent post I did in this thread that suggested adding CounterTop in this deck because Waikiki has clearly put alot of thinking and effort to come up with such a delicate and wonderful conclusion as this not to mention i'm sure he has done extensive testing with CounterTop in Surviving Bant, otherwise, how could he have this kind of reasoning that he is now showing us?

Fair enough. However, I do disagree with Countertop here, and I'll toss out my reasons.

Mana;
Due to my list at least, I attempt to maximize Green and White sources due to how my deck is built (I still run Oriss for example, and have 3 Warmonks). Because of this, it's very possible that Counterbalance won't be castable on turn two, or that it will force me into fetching inferior lands for the situation (e.g., taking Tropical when I suspect they are running Wasteland).

In addition, Top requires a substantial amount of mana to use effectively. Most of the lists here gravitate to 18 or so land with 4 Hierarchs and some number of Vials. The normal NLU deck can run anywhere from 3 to 5 more lands than us. Top is unlikely to be useful in the early or mid-game, which is when we (or at least I) have the most trouble. Once a Survival gets active, Top's ability to dig for answers is generally overkill, as most decks run answers in the form of Tutor-able creatures.

Creature Count;
This can be an issue. Some lists without CB/Top have already had issues with finding creatures to pitch. While it's possible to run it and have enough creatures, it is a concern of mine.

Synergy;
Yeah, it's good. It's capable of sealing the game all on its own. That doesn't mean it's a good choice for the deck. I've run it, and the list did fine, but I have had better success without it. What does the Counter/Top list gain over non CB/Top lists?

These would be my concerns for it. If it's working for you, dandy. It's been poor for me in the past, however, so I'm leery of taking your claim that it belongs in the deck.

Melwis
08-23-2009, 05:31 AM
Fair enough. However, I do disagree with Countertop here, and I'll toss out my reasons.

Mana;
Due to my list at least, I attempt to maximize Green and White sources due to how my deck is built (I still run Oriss for example, and have 3 Warmonks). Because of this, it's very possible that Counterbalance won't be castable on turn two, or that it will force me into fetching inferior lands for the situation (e.g., taking Tropical when I suspect they are running Wasteland).

In addition, Top requires a substantial amount of mana to use effectively. Most of the lists here gravitate to 18 or so land with 4 Hierarchs and some number of Vials. The normal NLU deck can run anywhere from 3 to 5 more lands than us. Top is unlikely to be useful in the early or mid-game, which is when we (or at least I) have the most trouble. Once a Survival gets active, Top's ability to dig for answers is generally overkill, as most decks run answers in the form of Tutor-able creatures.

Creature Count;
This can be an issue. Some lists without CB/Top have already had issues with finding creatures to pitch. While it's possible to run it and have enough creatures, it is a concern of mine.

Synergy;
Yeah, it's good. It's capable of sealing the game all on its own. That doesn't mean it's a good choice for the deck. I've run it, and the list did fine, but I have had better success without it. What does the Counter/Top list gain over non CB/Top lists?

These would be my concerns for it. If it's working for you, dandy. It's been poor for me in the past, however, so I'm leery of taking your claim that it belongs in the deck.

Well first of all I am in no way trying to tell you all to immediately drop your current lists and put in CounterTop in them. I was merely posting here to further notify Xian's list since I decided to try it out and believed it worked really well. My quote to Waikiki was because all his post seemed to include was his hunch that CounterTop doesn't belong here but I still felt like he tought that quoting one sentence he had said in here before was enough to just completely ignore the post I did. Maybe I overreacted and maybe he has tried CounterTop in this deck, but as I said, his post didn't really give that feeling.

Let's move on to the discussion:

@Mana: Yes mana might become a problem, especially when facing Wasteland/Stifle and the like. The biggest reason why the deck can play cards that require lots of different mana is ofcourse Noble Hierarch, without this guy my list and many others would probably not be enough mana reliant. That said, if you want to play cards that makes you focus more on green and/or white sources then obviously CounterTop is not for you.

@Top: Sure Top needs mana to work, but saying that it requires a subtstantial amount is wrong. If you just have Top out and lots of mana to spend then sure you can spend lots of mana on it if you like but for those situations where you have both Top and Survival out I think that spending one mana on Top doesn't really make you unable to use SotF (and you still have the choice to simply not pay for Top at that time should you need to use every mana on Survival). Having the option to do either can hardly be something negative? For those moments where you have SotF, Top & CB on the board I really don't think you can say that Top is bad because the mana you use on it will most likely win you the game.

@Creature count: It might sound weird but I really haven't had to much problems with this. Sure, sometimes I have played the last creature in my hand just to draw into SotF and then my list (19 creatures) has a lower chance of finding a discard outlet then most lists but this doesn't happen enough for me to worry, will however pay attention to it.

@Synergy: The biggest reason to play CounterTop would probably be because the deck can now either play out pretty aggresively (Vial, SotF) or much more controlling (CounterTop) or even somewhere in between which make it very versatile.

As I said in the start, I am not telling you to switch your lists to include CounterTop but what I am doing is trying to convince people that come here to atleast give it a chance. You said you had played with it and I believe you so that is fine.

PS: What does your list look like? I had to search for Oriss actually and now i'm interested. What is she there for mostly?

Waikiki
08-23-2009, 05:46 AM
People. The utterly perfection of this posts argumentation is far beyond anything I could ever dream to counter with and I will therefore tell you all to completely ignore the recent post I did in this thread that suggested adding CounterTop in this deck because Waikiki has clearly put alot of thinking and effort to come up with such a delicate and wonderful conclusion as this not to mention i'm sure he has done extensive testing with CounterTop in Surviving Bant, otherwise, how could he have this kind of reasoning that he is now showing us?

Was this needed?

Since I created this deck I have tested both top and CB alot! and as you mentionned top sure is great "when" you got alot of mana out. Together with Survival you will gain alot of card advantage. Sure top is a good card to be played in this deck.

The problem I got was I tried to up the blue count and top would go into the ponder slot. Something I did not like. I find top a great late game card where I am in opinion our lategame is allready dominant due to survival. The thing I want to improve is the early game. This is were ponder is superior in my opinion.

Now adding CB to the mix will often lead to either survival or go the CB route. Which in my opinion doing too much with the deck. I think it's better to optimize one route and not be able to 2 ways that dont work as good as they work in a dedicated survival or CB top deck.

I haven't been able to have enough mana for both CB and survival. since you often use mana in your own turn to cast creatures. Sure CB can lock the game for you, but as I said the late game is allready great with survival giving you an answer to almost everything.

I have explained this before thats why my answer was short.

and like snowman said. It would make the manabase harder cause you need to support UU now alot sooner while you also want to be able to hit G as much as possible.

Goblin Snowman
08-23-2009, 04:50 PM
PS: What does your list look like? I had to search for Oriss actually and now i'm interested. What is she there for mostly?

Off the top of my head,

4x Tropical Island
3x Savannah
1x Tundra
4x Windswept Heath
2x Wooded Foothills
3x Forest
1x Plains

4x Aether Vial
4x Noble Hierarch

3x Swords to Plowshares
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Survival of the Fittest

4x Tarmogoyf
1x Meddling Mage/Gaddok Teeg (I waffle on whether or not I want to be able to shut off Swords)
4x Spellstutter Sprite
2x Qasali Pridemage (One of them randomly changes with Wickerbough Elder)
3x Rhox War Monk
3x Oriss, Samite Guardian
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob
1x Wonder
1x Genesis

SB
1x Rhox War Monk
1x Faerie Macabre
1x Swords to Plowshares
3x Gaddok Teeg
3x Krosan Grip
3x Dueling Grounds (This is my latest thing I'm testing as Ichorid/Tribal hate, might not stay)
3x Meddling Mage

Jak
08-23-2009, 10:05 PM
Played the deck today to second of 16 players. It felt good and I won against jank (RG beats deck with burn and some large creatures), UGB Intuition Demigod Control, and Survival Sneak Attack. I lost to Zoo. I didn't get a hold of Vials, so I decided I still wanted to try out a Ponder-less version. The deck ran really well and I never hated having more creatures.

20 Lands

4 Brainstorm
4 Survival
4 Swords
4 Force

1 Squee
1 Wonder

2 Hierarch (NEED TWO MORE)
3 Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Sprite
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 War Monk
2 Clique
1 Predator
1 Witness
1 Rafiq

SB
4 Path
1 War Monk
3 Grip
2 Meddling Mage
1 Teeg
1 Genesis
3 Spell Snare

Zoo was tough. I sided in 3 Paths and a Monk taking out Predator, Witness, and 2 Cliques. I never drew much removal, or a War Monk and saw only one Survival both games and just got crushed. Still, the list ran flawlessly the rest of the time.

HPB_Eggo
08-24-2009, 12:19 PM
How do people feel about Magus of the Moat in the sideboard? The double white can sometimes be hard to hit, but lists running Aether Vial won't have a problem, as ramping it to four is generally the right play anyways, and Wonder will let you completely ignore the restriction, with Genesis allowing for recursion if it gets burned/countered.

Overall, I would think it would be very good against Goblins, MU Merfolk, and Dredge, who generally run no ways to remove Magus permanently, as well as being fair to good against UW Merfolk, Zoo, and random aggro, who can remove it permanently, but generally only run four spells to do so.

beastman
08-24-2009, 01:03 PM
Goblins can build up their team and kill it with a gempalm, then alpha strike you for the win. If you ever get to turn 5 against Ichorid, you should be winning anyway. It is very good against merfolk, but I thing that getting the spore frog lock is just as effective, and it works 10000 times better against goblins and dredge.

HPB_Eggo
08-24-2009, 02:12 PM
Goblins can build up their team and kill it with a gempalm, then alpha strike you for the win. If you ever get to turn 5 against Ichorid, you should be winning anyway. It is very good against merfolk, but I thing that getting the spore frog lock is just as effective, and it works 10000 times better against goblins and dredge.

I tried that, but it's not worth much when the same graveyard hate they bring in to hose Squee also hoses your stabilizing mechanism. It also basically requires Survival, as you need a discard outlet and two cards, of which you generally only run one, to work.

I'm not sure if Magus is any better, of course. I'm trying to find time to do some testing on it, but I don't really have much.

Waikiki
08-26-2009, 05:28 PM
I would not try to rely too much on the spore frog lock cause it's easy disruptable. I even kicked it out of my sb since the elves and ichorid are on a decline as for now.

beastman
08-26-2009, 10:05 PM
It's really only vulnerable to graveyard hate. I still think its a lot better than magus.

Waikiki
08-27-2009, 04:48 AM
its also weak against eot kill spore frog and attack for the win on their own turn. Only a few decks can't do that.

magus isn't worth playing anyways.

beastman
08-27-2009, 02:04 PM
its also weak against eot kill spore frog and attack for the win on their own turn. Only a few decks can't do that.

magus isn't worth playing anyways.

I play aether vial. Keep it set at 1 and you don't play frog until their turn.

Waikiki
08-28-2009, 06:15 AM
I can see it being stronger with a vial build. Then again you need a 2nd vial cause I think the first will be up further allready. Isn't that a problem sometimes?

beastman
08-28-2009, 10:25 AM
Not as often as you'd think. Game 2, I usually keep vial at 1 to get ready for the lock, until I'm required to set it higher. 2 is usually the highest I ever set it anyway.

Waikiki
08-30-2009, 04:10 PM
Just got back from a 51 player tournament and went 4-1-1 towards T8

GBw rock 2-0
ichorid 2-1
tempo thresh 0-2
GBw rock 1-1 Too bad time was up else he'd be dead
Landstill 2-1 1-1 draw but he scooped because I was going to win. Major respect for that
Natural order survival 2-0

T8
Merfolk 2-1
T4
Zoo 2-1
Finals split.

my list:
// Lands
1 [P3] Plains (3)
1 [P3] Forest (2)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [A] Tropical Island
1 [A] Tundra
3 [A] Savannah

// Creatures
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [JU] Wonder
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [ALA] Rafiq of the Many
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
2 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
1 [BOK] Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
3 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite

// Spells
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
3 [LRW] Ponder
3 [DIS] Spell Snare

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
SB: 2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

Jak
08-30-2009, 09:53 PM
Just got back from a 51 player tournament and went 4-1-1 towards T8

GBw rock 2-0
ichorid 2-1
tempo thresh 0-2
GBw rock 1-1 Too bad time was up else he'd be dead
Landstill 2-1 1-1 draw but he scooped because I was going to win. Major respect for that
Natural order survival 2-0

T8
Merfolk 2-1
T4
Zoo 2-1
Finals split.

my list:
// Lands
1 [P3] Plains (3)
1 [P3] Forest (2)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [A] Tropical Island
1 [A] Tundra
3 [A] Savannah

// Creatures
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [JU] Wonder
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [ALA] Rafiq of the Many
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
2 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
1 [BOK] Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
3 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite

// Spells
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
3 [LRW] Ponder
3 [DIS] Spell Snare

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
SB: 2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

Awesome. It looks like 18 lands worked for you. I plan on trimming mine down as well.

I went 4-0 today. The most notable thing is that I sided out Sprites in all 4 matches. I might remove them completely and add Spell Snares or something. My meta is too random for it.

Jak
08-30-2009, 10:19 PM
@ Waikiki
Was there anything in the list that you didn't like? Like I said in my last post, I sided out Sprites in all 4 matches. I know you cut them a little bit ago, but how did they do today?

Without them, I would run something like this...

4 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Tundra
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest

1 Squee
1 Wonder

4 Noblie Hierarch
2 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Trygon predator
1 Eternal Witness
1 Rafiq

SB
4 Path to Exile
1 Rhox War Monk
3 Krosan Grip
2 Meddling Mage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Genesis
3 Tormod's Crypt / Daze / Sower of Temptation / Gilded Drake / Gaddock Teeg / etc

Not sure...

beastman
08-30-2009, 10:51 PM
I love sprites, I would only run 2, but I wouldn't cut them entirely.

Jak
08-30-2009, 11:17 PM
I love sprites, I would only run 2, but I wouldn't cut them entirely.

True, they do protect you from removal well. It isn't that I don't like them, I just hate how inconsistent they are. However, they do pitch to Survival and Force so I'll probably leave them in.

Waikiki
08-31-2009, 04:11 AM
Sprites where strong all day I never sided them out.

Kira wasn't all that good tho. She protected some but I didn't face that heavy removals.dec

Rafiq was the man of the day.
I do want to fit in another basic forest perhaps.


@Jak. Whats your opinion about those 2 gooses.

I do wonder how good the sb cliques are. They come in vs control and the tournament they always catched a removal spell before trigger resolving. so I think thats pretty good.

Jak
08-31-2009, 04:32 AM
Goose is pretty good. It's just awesome in te aggro and control MUs. I have them in there since Oregon just doesn't have 2 more Hierarchs. I really like them and want to keep playing with them.

Rafiq was awesome for me also. I loved drawing him and feel like the deck needs to have 1, something I wouldn't have said a while back. If anything, he pulls the Sword out of the opponents hand.

I love Cliques. Like I want to go up to three because of how good they are. Even against aggro, flashing it in isn't horrible.

Maybe it was just a bad day for Sprites for me. I played against a RG LD deck first round and they suck when the opponents curve starts at 3. Then I played Goblins which they suck against. Next I played a heavy LD version of The Rock (minis Deed though) and they weren't that great. Finally I played a Survival Sneak Attack deck which they sucked against. I just don't know if they work in my meta right now.

I was pleased with how my deck faired against LD though. I usually roll over and die to Sinkhole, Vindicate, and Wasteland. Goose helped a a cheap threat that dodged all the removal.

eq.firemind
08-31-2009, 04:56 AM
Goose is pretty good.
Wow! Exalted Double Striking Shroud 3/3 for just :g:! Sounds great!

Jak
08-31-2009, 05:03 AM
Wow! Exalted Double Striking Shroud 3/3 for just :g:! Sounds great!

Haha definitely. I won countless games with just Goose beating down, sometimes with the exalted bonus and other times just as a 1/1. It gives the deck more first turn plays (I haven't been running Ponder lately) and gives it a more aggro edge.

I basically think it shores up some rough MUs. For example, last week I was able to play through 3 Deeds by just making Mongoose a threat. Other creatures just aren't as good versus Swords to Plowshares, Vedalken Shackles, Vindicate, Path to Exile, Smother, etc.

It also comes down early to block Lackey or "Healing Salve" against a Nacatl and then later on block and kill the Nacatls, Piledrivers, etc.

Waikiki
08-31-2009, 05:07 AM
tho kira makes all your creatures gooses I will certainly test them out im curious how they play for me. Altho I would not cut ponders for them since they provide thresh.

Jak
08-31-2009, 05:18 AM
tho kira makes all your creatures gooses I will certainly test them out im curious how they play for me. Altho I would not cut ponders for them since they provide thresh.

I thought that too. My first list with them ran 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, and 3 Daze alongside the other non-creature spells in my latest list. It got to Threshold fast but you don't need Threshold fast. I have been liking my latest list since it runs tons of creatures (just take out the Spell Snares for 4 Sprites). With more creatures, you can still fill the graveyard fast enough (blocking etc). I think I got to Threshold on turn 6ish most of the time. (2 fetches, Brainstorm, Swords, 2 fallen dudes, and a Force or something).

I still like Ponders and they probably are better with Goose, but I like the deck as a whole with the 25-26 creature count.

Waikiki
08-31-2009, 05:40 AM
ok my initial thought is -3 snare -1 kira +3 goose +1 ponder

I wil certainly test it!

Jak
08-31-2009, 05:51 AM
ok my initial thought is -3 snare -1 kira +3 goose +1 ponder

I wil certainly test it!

Instead of the Ponder, do you want to add Witness back in? You faced The Rock twice and Landstill and Witness is so good against Aggro-control and control. Its just some tutorable insurance that also is always a good thing to draw.

Also, I would definitely not go up to 8 cantrips. It gets just really clunky when all you are Brainstorming or Pondering into is more cantrips.

IMO, -3 Snare, -1 Kira, +3 Goose, +1 Witness

Jak
08-31-2009, 05:54 AM
Also, @ everyone, I've been trying to keep the primer updated with tournament results, decklists, etc on all three of the Legacy sites (here, mtgsalvation, starcitygames) so if you see any tournament placings or reports on deckcheck, or any posts from sites, etc, just pm me here with the link so I can update it. Thanks!

Waikiki
08-31-2009, 06:05 AM
I haven't ever had a moment where I'd think. damn i could use witness right now. Id rather put in back a blue card cause I dont want the blue count to go too low.

Jak
08-31-2009, 06:08 AM
I haven't ever had a moment where I'd think. damn i could use witness right now. Id rather put in back a blue card cause I dont want the blue count to go too low.

Just getting Witness in response to an EE, Deed, Pridemage, etc is what wins me the game most of the time. Randomly drawing it is also fantastic. Like today, just playing Witness to get back a Force to protect the win is amazing. I would run more if I could but I have been loving the 3 War Monks.

Edit- The blue count is good reasoning. Maybe the fourth Sprite or 3rd War Monk?

Waikiki
08-31-2009, 06:13 AM
mass removal is always a bitch and witness does help there indeed. as a 1 off it seems not strong enough for me. I am thrilled on testing mongoose tho.

Jak
08-31-2009, 06:17 AM
mass removal is always a bitch and witness does help there indeed. as a 1 off it seems not strong enough for me. I am thrilled on testing mongoose tho.

Are you going to right a report? I think it would be cool for the primer to have a report section as well.

Edit - lol at me. 'are you going to right a report?' I was tired.

Waikiki
08-31-2009, 06:27 AM
Did not take any notes but ill give it a shot.

<edit> here it is http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=376321#post376321

Jak
08-31-2009, 05:22 PM
So I've been working on the primer when I have nothing else to do and I added a Reports section. I have linked to a few posts from this thread (two of crz87's and one of elgoff's) and I linked to Waikiki's. I really want the Reports list and the Accomplishments list to grow. Hopefully you guys can post or PM me with results and reports so I can edit them in.

To add to the Reports list, I'll write a small one.

There were only 10 people and we played 4 rounds.

Round 1 - Carlos with RG Land destruction

Game 1 started off rough when I kept a weak hand. I had no action in the first few turns and was surprised when I got a land blown up on turn 3. Uh oh. I was able to land a Survival and keep drawing lands, but he also kept blowing them up. I'm stuck on two mana sources so the only thing I can really do is grab Noble Hierarch with Survival. Unfortunatley, he drops Dues of Calamity while I have a Noble Hierarch and Nimble Mongoose on the table. I lose pretty fast when I have to keep chumping and can't find a Swords.

Game 2 was much easier once I knew what I was up against. I sided in Path to Exiles for Sprites since they suck when your opponents curve starts at three. I end up overwhelming him with 3 Rhox War Monks and a Tarmogoyf, countering his turn 3 LD.

Game 3 was much of the same. I held back my fetches and was able to go beat down with a Nimble Mongoose. He ddidn't draw much and when he went for the desperate Dues, I had the Swords.


Round 2 - Chris (Volt) with Mono Red Goblins

Game 1 I get a ridiculous hand and continue my awesome skills of getting a Survival against him. Turn two Survival, turn 3 War Monk, turn 4 War Monk, turn 5 War Monk is beastly.

Game 2 I bring in 4 Paths and another Elephant. Again, T2 Survival followed by War Monk, then Tarmogoyf, scoop. Ridiculous hands are ridiculous.


Round 3 - Nick (Yawgmoth) playing BGW LD Rock-Suicide-ish

Game 1 I keep a pretty mediocre hand with 4 lands, Hierarch, Goose, and Brainstorm (I think). I knew what he was playing so I wanted to mana heavy hand. He Duresses me and takes the Brainstorm. I lead with the Hierarch and then Goose next turn. I just keep beating down with the Goose that is protected from his removal. He can't draw creatures and I win.

Game 2 I side in Paths taking out Sprites and much of the same happens. I go beat down with 2 Goose. Again, Nick can't draw creatures and I win. Pretty lame way to win. We went about 50-50 preboard in 4 games before hand. Bad draws.


Round 4 - Brandon with Survival Sneak Attack

Game 1 I was able to land a turn 2 Survival but it gets Oblivion Ringed the next turn. I get Mongoose out and start beating down. I Clique him and take the Sneak Attack in his hand, but it gets hit with Swords the same turn. Turn 4 another Goose joins the board. Brandon is able to land a Sneak Attack but it still missing out on green mana. He has to Sneak in Wall of Roots to play his Survival. Next turn, he does the same thing (Sneaks in Wall) and uses the green to pitch Witness to grab Colossus. I have the Swords and he goes back up to 20. Next turn I play Rafiq and beat for 4 with a Goose. I keep drawing into removal and counters and he doesn't get much.

Game 2 I bring in 2 Path and 3 Grips for 4 Sprites and a War Monk. I land a turn 2 Goyf, then get an Elephant down. I keep his bad enchantments off the table and just overwhelm him with counter back up after getting my Force back with Witness.

So I went 8-1 on the day and the deck was solid.

Waikiki
08-31-2009, 05:28 PM
Too bad only 1 real competative deck was played. Mongoose seemed nice against it tho!

PM'd some more achievements.

Jak
08-31-2009, 05:43 PM
Too bad only 1 real competative deck was played. Mongoose seemed nice against it tho!

PM'd some more achievements.

The Rock and Goblins are both competitive. :)

Actually, I probably shouldn't call it The Rock.

It ran...

4 Thoughtseize
? Duress
4 Hymn

4 Swords
4 Vindicate

4 Dark Confidant
4 Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Wasteland
1 Rishadan Port
? Lands

Waikiki
09-01-2009, 04:03 AM
some sort of aggro rock ;)

Woops forgot goblins yeah my bad. You really had the god hand against the deck so I was quickly done reading it hehe.

Black Mass
09-01-2009, 04:30 PM
Congrats at you both, I'll get my first real competitive test on september 20, I hope to doe as good.

@Jak: What are those elephants you are talking about? Do you ean Loxodon Hierarch?

Jak
09-01-2009, 05:44 PM
Congrats at you both, I'll get my first real competitive test on september 20, I hope to doe as good.

@Jak: What are those elephants you are talking about? Do you ean Loxodon Hierarch?

Thank you.

Also, I was talking about Rhox War Monk, thinking he was an elephant. Rhino I meant :).

Waikiki
09-02-2009, 05:45 AM
Congrats at you both, I'll get my first real competitive test on september 20, I hope to doe as good.

@Jak: What are those elephants you are talking about? Do you ean Loxodon Hierarch?

Going to MOL? I will perhaps also be going to that tournament!

Black Mass
09-02-2009, 03:31 PM
Yup, allways fun to play at. Most other Legacy tournaments in Belgium and the Netherlands tend to have Very bad dates for me.

GreatWhale
09-05-2009, 02:10 PM
Hi,

I just sleeved up this deck and played around with it, I like the deck except I couldn't figure out the point of survival. The games I won survival was a non factor and win more, it played more just like a bant aggro deck. The only utility creatures you can fetch out with survival is trygon predator (incredible slow when you need removal this turn) or pridemage who you have to sacrifice for any kind of control.

Waikiki
09-05-2009, 02:29 PM
survival is a card advantage engine which makes you win lategame. The deck plays like BANT indeed but has a stronger late game thnx to survival. The reason of few singles are because without survival they aren't that strong.

Jak
09-05-2009, 08:44 PM
Hi,

I just sleeved up this deck and played around with it, I like the deck except I couldn't figure out the point of survival. The games I won survival was a non factor and win more, it played more just like a bant aggro deck. The only utility creatures you can fetch out with survival is trygon predator (incredible slow when you need removal this turn) or pridemage who you have to sacrifice for any kind of control.

Squee? I only tutor up other things in times that I need to. Like if I am under pressure and need a Goyf or if I need to blow up Shackles, EE, Deed, etc I get Pridemage. Squee is usually always my first target because once you get it, it turns into an additional Tarmogoyf every turn. Survival is definitely not win more but it is the easiest way to win. I mean it is a card advantage tutor!

Ectoplasm
09-05-2009, 09:31 PM
Just get squee and grab an extra dude every turn, all for just G

Jak
09-05-2009, 11:10 PM
Yay for UG Fetches!

4 New UG Fetch
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Tundra
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

Mystical_Jackass
09-06-2009, 01:43 AM
Chandra Ablaze + Squee have potential?

I was also thinking Survival, Sneak Attack, Electropotence would be cool

Waikiki
09-06-2009, 04:35 AM
that would be going in a way different deck. I hope they bring out some new nice beaters :)

Jak
09-06-2009, 04:53 AM
Chandra Ablaze + Squee have potential?

I was also thinking Survival, Sneak Attack, Electropotence would be cool

Really?

Jokemon
09-06-2009, 03:05 PM
Has anyone considered playing Portent instead of Ponder?

Tried it today a bit, and I can't say i dissliked it. though it need some more testing. The reason I thought of this card is that i often don't need the card i draw from Ponder and the ability to check my OP's next 3 draws can be quite good.

Will return after some more testing, just wanted to share my thought.

godryk
09-06-2009, 04:32 PM
Just a stupid suggestion: given that some people has fooled around with Mongoose in this deck: would you consider, at least for testing issues, running the new Zendikar Cat (Scythe Tiger)?

Perhaps as a 2-of, adding extra untargetable punch. You can fetch it when you can loose the forest and you have Hierarch to minimize the loss.

Anyway, I'm liking this deck more and more (even I don't see any special strength in it), and I'm consedreing getting some Hierarchs and strt playing it...

Jak
09-06-2009, 06:34 PM
Just a stupid suggestion: given that some people has fooled around with Mongoose in this deck: would you consider, at least for testing issues, running the new Zendikar Cat (Scythe Tiger)?

Perhaps as a 2-of, adding extra untargetable punch. You can fetch it when you can loose the forest and you have Hierarch to minimize the loss.

Anyway, I'm liking this deck more and more (even I don't see any special strength in it), and I'm consedreing getting some Hierarchs and strt playing it...

Survival is so mana hungry though that destroying your land is a terrible play. Mongoose grows fast enough because you don't need it to be a 3/3 on the second turn.

XiaN
09-07-2009, 01:19 PM
Here is the list I developed over the past several month and which i'm currently playing with :


4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
1 Rafiq of the Many

1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Wonder
1 Progenitus

1 Bant Charm
3 Natural Order
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Counterbalance

3 AEther Vial
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Land [20]

4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
2 Tundra
1 Dryad Arbor

1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

Sideboard

3 Open Slot
3 Krosan Grip
3 Gaddock Teeg
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kira, Great Glass Spinner
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Genesis
1 Meddling Mage

This of cause looks very different from the list currently discussed in this thread.

Here is a very long explanation ( but in german :really: ) about some anti-synergies, suboptimal cardchoises and problems i had with the "official" list.

I'll try to convert it to english under the week, but i'm currently busy.

I don't like the current direction of the "official" lists ( no offense here ), but if you discuss to include Mongoose then the deck more and more looks like a suboptimal Thresh-build. You could simply replace the survival engine with Thresh-cards and run much better tournament results :tongue:



Ich wundere mich aber gerade, dass du das Deck immer weiter in eine immer weiter abweichende Richtung entwickelst.

Das is ne sehr gute Frage. Ich glaube die kurze Antwort ist : Weil ich sowas immer mache. Ich muss immer meinen eigenen Weg versuchen. Charakterbug :D

Aber ich hab mir schon was dabei gedacht. Die ganze Verwandlung mal aus MtG Sicht :

Meine erste Liste ( siehe erster Post ) war sehr auf die Toolbox fixiert. Nach einigen Turnieren war dann schnell klar, dass 4 Brainstorm und 4 Ponder einfach der Overkill und viel zu langsam war. Also wurde auf 2 Ponder reduziert und die Toolbox aufgestockt.

Dann hab ich mich nen bissl umgeschaut und mir bei Loam und einigen ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh / *still Listen die Erkenntniss geholt, dass Toolboxen zwar eine sehr nette Sache sind, aber in so gut wie allen Fällen den gestraften neuen Versionen ohne Wish / Toolbox unterlegen waren. Toolboxen sind toll, aber für Legacy wohl schlicht zu langsam.

Also kamen einige Versionen und Spiele mit gestraffter Toolbox, wo ich in jedem Spiel die bestimmten Komponenten getestet habe. Gleichzeit zeigte sich, das Pridemages und Monks einfach VIEL zu gut sind um als 1 of im Deck rumzuhängen. Und das Exhalted ein sehr starke Subsynergie im Deck ist.

Also wurde die Toolbox auf Spellstutter Kira, Witness, Constable, Wonder und Squee reduziert und mit Daze / Spellsnare und Stifle im Austausch dafür experiment.

Viele Stunden testen später war dann klar : Spellstutter sind in dem Deck so unfassbar schlecht. Wie schon oben geschrieben passt sie aus mehreren Gründen nicht ins Deck.

Mit damals 18 Ländern im Deck hatte man nie Mana für sie offen. Wenn man sich Mana offen gehalten hat, hat man dem Gegner in der wenig aggressiven Version ohne Vial viel Zeit geschenkt. So konnte man seltenst den Aggroplan auspacken.

Im Lategame auf der anderen Hand, mit Survival draußen wollte man sie eigentlich nie rausholen. Selbst wenn man sich mit nem StP konfrontiert sah ... da kann ich auch einfach noch nen Goofy holen und mein Leben auffüllen. Alternativ macht Kira den gleichen Job, nur besser.

Topdeck sind sie fast schlechter als Vial. 1/1 Flieger sind in nem Deck mit Wonder im Grave und Pridemage/Monk/Goofy/Rafiq nicht wirklich mächtig.

Gedient haben sie eigentlich nur als tutorbaren Forcepitch. Den Part haben sie auch oft und gut erfüllt, aber das fühlte sich irgendwie suboptimal an.

Also flog die Fee raus, was die Sourcler auch so langsam machen. Ich würde einiges wetten, dass sie in naher Zukunft ganz aus dem Deck fliegt. Sie bringt uns keinen Vorteil, sondern hält eher an den kritischen Fronten auf.

Nachdem nun Sprite und Ponder bei mir geflogen sind, kam Force auf den Prüfstand. Eher ungewollt, weil ich irgendwann beim zocken festgestellt habe, dass man seltenst Pitchtargets hat. Und selbst wenn man welche hatte, hat mir die Force mehr geschadet als dem Gegner. Wenn ich z.B. Monk und Force für Confi tausche, dann ärgert mich das schon sehr. Ich will den Monk aufm Board und nicht für nen bissl Disruption verschenken. Auch musste ich mir den Monk immer auf der Hand behalten um die Force online zu haben. Und ma ehrlich, wenn der Gegner mit Inseln draußen 2 Karten auf der Hand hat ... was das wohl is :D

Nachdem die schmerzliche Entscheidung gefallen war Force zu entfernen, flog schnell auch Brainstorm. Wie im oberen Post geschrieben, wir haben Unmengen gute 1 Drops und leider nie Mana und Zeit für den superguten Brainstorm/Fetch. Schade, aber da muss man wohl durch. Und im Lategame hat sie meistens einfach nur ne Karte gezogen.

Da man an festen Supportsprüchen nun nur noch

4 Survival
4 Swords

Hatte musste natürlich irgendwie die fehlende Bibomanipulation ersetzt werden. 3 Töpfe nahmen den Part ein und sind bedeutend besser als die 8 Brainstorms/Ponder. Klar sind sie Manaintensiver und ja, man stalled damit leider auch sehr rum, aber mit 8 Fetchies und Survival garantiert der Topf ab Runde 4 "the nuts" in jeder Runde. Als netten Nebeneffekt kann man sich so auch die 1-2-3 Drops für die Counterbalance hinshuffeln.

Die Landbase bekam also noch eine Taiga spendiert und das tutorbare Land. Das wirst du dir, gemäß du spielst das Deck mal aktiv soooo oft wünschen. Ab 4-5 Mana ist das Deck kaum zu stoppen, aber da musst du auch erstmal hin. Und wenn der Gegner noch mit Stifle und Wasteland an deine Länder will ... Man sucht sich den laufenden Baum oft genug :D

Nun hatte ich beim Playtesten immernoch ein Problem : Man brauchte doch 1-2 Runden um sein Survival mit genug Mana an den Start zu bringen. Also musste was her, was die Rolle die Spellstutter einnehmen sollte ( im Aggromode den Removal abschalten ), aber auch im Earlygame die ersten Wellen des Gegners abhält. Wenn man schon 3 Töpfe spielt, dann liegt die Balance natürlich nahe. Zum einen steht auf ihr ganz dick "Handle me or you die", sie erfüllt beide Rollen und sie ist auch alleine sehr sehr stark. Zum anderen haben wir die perfekte Kurve und wenig Länder, so dass sie immer mit genug Sachen versorgt wird und auch im Randommode überproportional oft trifft.

Man muss die Balance aber nen bissl anders spielen, als in anderen Decks. Sie fungiert bei uns selten als Softlock. Meistens schaltet sie nur gewisse Keykarts des Gegners ab. Gegen Loam z.B. hab ich immer 2 oben liegen lassen und nie versucht seine Ravenscrime oder Crusher zu countern, obwohl ich das konnte. Ich hatte zu dem Zeitpunkt 2 Mana offen und 1-3 oben, hätte also alles countern können, aber ich wollte nich. Loam wird mit Balance 2 schon gehörig abgeschalten. Ich zeige ihm so nich was ich in der Balance ist.

Naja genug gelabert :D Man nutzt sie nich als Softlock, sondern je nach Situation um Zeit für den Survivalpunkt ( wenn sie also online ist ) zu schinden oder auf den Aggropunkt hin Karten auf der Hand zu sammeln. Erste Wellen countern und dann umschalten zu Aggro. Im Idialfall macht man das mit Vial zusammen.

Ausserdem stand beim kompletten Deckkonzept immer ganz oben, dass das Deck auch ohne Survival sehr gut funktioniert. Jemand meinte mal : "Survival ist eigentlich immer Tier 2". Viel grübeln und einige hundert Decklisten mit Survival später ist mir aufgefallen, dass viele Listen mit Survival fallen oder brillieren. Selbst wenn sich die Listen "Funzt auch ohne Survival" auf die Fahnen geschrieben hatte, war dem seltenst so.

Ich wollte ein Deck was ohne Survival min. 80% bringt, mit Survival aber total durchdreht.

Vial kam dann um mir mehr Mana für das rumgetrickse mit CB/Top und Survival zur Verfügung zu stellen. Erfüllt seinen Part bisher ganz gut, aber da bin ich noch am überlegen. Brauch man sie oder brauch man sie nich. Fragen über Fragen :D

Kreaturenmäßig wanderte so ziemlich die gesamte Toolbox ins SB oder ganz raus. Ist dieses "Ich will nicht auf Survival bauen" Ding. Monk und Pridemage sind unendlich gut in unserem Meta und 2 Rafiq waren auch sehr nett. Leider musste einer aus Platzmangel gehen. Da ich momentan noch einen Slot frei habe, streitet er sich grade mit Anger um diesen Platz :D

Tcho und da waren noch die 4 freien Plätze. Irgendwie musste noch eine "Ups i just win" Sache ins Deck. Nachdem mich auf der Mercadiade einer mit "Ups i just win" umgehaun hat, kam Natural Order rein. Ausser dem Dicken, sucht der ja auch Warmonk oder Rafiq. Mal sehen, aber ich bin optimistisch.

Ok, fassen wir mal die Gründe für "meine Version" zusammen

-> Bei der Version die auf The Source gespielt wird, hat man irgendwie immer das Gefühl, dass man mit ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh das gleiche Deck nur besser hätte. Grade wo sie jetzt Mungo ins Spiel bringen. Ma ehrlich, da kann man auch Survival raus und Wasteland / Stifle reinnehmen und besser spielen :P
-> Toolbox macht Survival Tier2
-> Sprite kann GARNICHTS
-> Ich spiele ungern reaktiv. Ich leg lieber Zeug, auf das der Gegner reagieren muss, anstatt mit Countern auf sein Spiel zu reagieren
-> Ich mag die hohe Anzahl von "Counter me or you die"-Karten. Damit haben wir dank Goofy, Warmonk, Survival, CB und Natural Order fast mehr als Loam :D

Angenehmer Nebeneffekt an Natural Order ist, dass der Gegner seinen Counter auf der Hand lieber für ein potentielles Natural Order aufspart und schon mal ein Auge bei CB oder Survival zudrückt. Ausserdem merkt der Gegner selten, wie viel er eigentlich bei Survival -> Wonder im Grave verliert. Quasi steht auf all meinen Viechern dann "unblockbar" und man kann sehr gut damit Alphastriken.

Soh .. Wall of text ends here


Diese Manaintensität sorgt meiner Meinung nach dafür, dass sich die Engines gegenseitig ausschließen. Hattest du da nie Probleme?
Nein. Man muss zwar nen bissl zurückstecken was CB angeht, aber wenn man nich zuviel will, dann geht das ohne Probleme. NIEMALS hecktisch werden. Hat mich schon oft das Spiel gekostet, dass ich dann irgendwann zuviel CB wollte ( Siehe Runde 3 Mercadia Report Game 2 )


Ist das nicht möglicherweise schlechter als die jeweiligen geradlinigen Einzelstrategien?
Dafür hab ich noch zu wenig Erfahrung mit CB im Deck. Aber dier Mercadiade hindurch hatte ich überhaupt keine Probleme damit. Die Engines haben super funktioniert, nur ihr Pilot hats ab und an verrissen, weil er zu gierig wurde :D


Weiterhin würde ich mich immer fragen, ob ich gerade controllish den CB / Top Softlock aufrecht erhalten will oder aber ob ich mehr aggressiv mit Survival die Beater suche.
DAS is der Schlüssel, wenn man das Deck gut spielen will. Für einige Matchups hab ich das schon gut raus, aber bei einigen verhau ich das noch völligst. Da hilft nur testen, testen und nochma testen. Wenn man das raus hat, rockt das Deck einfach nur übelst :D

Tolles Deck! Macht viel Spass zu spielen und ich hab mal wieder viel zu viel geschrieben =)

Waikiki
09-07-2009, 01:30 PM
You seem to be strongly against the sprites. They have won me soo many games. You also keep saying we are using toolboxes. Well if youd see my latest list the only toolbox creatures are rafiq,squee,wonder and kira (which I cut)

Maybe its the difference in meta you play but sprite has been nothing but amazing to me. I do not seem a real reasoning, just you saying its awfull. Maybe its my lack of the german language there.

Also you seem wanting to do alot, CB + survival + NO. IMO its better to controll you focus at doing 1 thing very good instead of doing 3 things good to okay.

I think a straight CB top with order list seems better since its able to protect its bombs better.

sco0ter
09-07-2009, 02:10 PM
Maybe its my lack of the german language there.


Since I am bored...



Viele Stunden testen später war dann klar : Spellstutter sind in dem Deck so unfassbar schlecht. Wie schon oben geschrieben passt sie aus mehreren Gründen nicht ins Deck.

Mit damals 18 Ländern im Deck hatte man nie Mana für sie offen. Wenn man sich Mana offen gehalten hat, hat man dem Gegner in der wenig aggressiven Version ohne Vial viel Zeit geschenkt. So konnte man seltenst den Aggroplan auspacken.

Im Lategame auf der anderen Hand, mit Survival draußen wollte man sie eigentlich nie rausholen. Selbst wenn man sich mit nem StP konfrontiert sah ... da kann ich auch einfach noch nen Goofy holen und mein Leben auffüllen. Alternativ macht Kira den gleichen Job, nur besser.

Topdeck sind sie fast schlechter als Vial. 1/1 Flieger sind in nem Deck mit Wonder im Grave und Pridemage/Monk/Goofy/Rafiq nicht wirklich mächtig.

Gedient haben sie eigentlich nur als tutorbaren Forcepitch. Den Part haben sie auch oft und gut erfüllt, aber das fühlte sich irgendwie suboptimal an.



==
Short version:

Spellstutter Sprite are so unbelievable bad, because:
- With only 18 lands, you have never mana for her and if you kept mana open you would give your opponent much time to develop and you'd have to play the defensive role (in the version with Vial).
- Lategame it is bad. Only good to counter StP. Kira does the same job here. Or life from StP is as good, too.
- Bad top deck (nearly worse than Vial)
- only useable as tutorable Forcepitch

Waikiki
09-07-2009, 02:20 PM
Well I've seen to play sprite way different. mostly I resolve a thread and then start using sprite as a defense for the goyf or war monk. Its all about good timing and knowwing what role you are in. Also its evasive move + exalted is really strong.

XiaN
09-07-2009, 02:26 PM
Edit : Ok, here is the long version ^^


Also its evasive move + exalted is really strong.

We have wonder, so additional RWMs and Pridemages have evasion too.


You seem to be strongly against the sprites. They have won me soo many games. Maybe its the difference in meta you play but sprite has been nothing but amazing to me. I do not seem a real reasoning, just you saying its awfull. Maybe its my lack of the german language there.

Yeah, somehow i personally don't like them as "alone" 4/3 of. In faeries they are just ridiculous, because they are in face hardcounter. But hitting 1/2 cc ... hmm maybe i'm blinded or disorientated there, but here the thoughts behind my move away from the sprites.

-> Without Vial you need to keep mana open during the opponents / your turn to be able to use her. That anti syncs with the option to play the aggro deck in some matchups and buy's your opponent a lot of time. And this is somehow crucial if you play against good control decks, because Sprite wouldn't hit anything ether if they established control. So you want to play early beaters and keep mana open to protect them ... hm well that doesn't work without vial.

-> From the view of creature power she is the weakest part in our chain. 1/1 flying is not very impressive even with exhalted. She is in my view a even worst topdeck compared to vial in nearly every stage of the game. In the early game you don't have the mana for her, in the midgame you want to either stabilize your control ( ok she helps here ) or aggro ( no mana for her ) position. In the lategame she won't hit a spell without the support of more faeries in play.

-> I admit she is a tutorable force pitch. She took that part very good, but honestly you can play more Warmonks or Cliques if you need a tutorable force pitch. The only difference is, that you don't regret to remove the dead sprite :)

-> Finally the reason i removed her : I don't see the point in protecting your Goyf with a 2 mana only-sometimes-counter if you could only tutor and play another Gofy. You see, if you have a critter in play ( RWM, Goyf, Clique ) and a Sprite in your hand and the enemy attemps a STP .... then why not only take the life and play another critter? And on the other hand, this critter is a much better topdeck, you don't need mana open for him during an opponents turn, it pitches to FoW and fears your opponent ( more RWM :D ).

And if you want to protect you're creatures from spot removal simply play more Kira's. She does the same job, but you don't need to pay the "Keep 2 mana open" upkeep cost and she is better on its own.

I have to admit, that in some MU and situations Sprite is really good, but overall ( maybe thats a meta call for me ) it's a very situation related and bad counter.


You also keep saying we are using toolboxes. Well if youd see my latest list the only toolbox creatures are rafiq,squee,wonder and kira (which I cut)

Based on the lists in the spoiler there def. is a toolbox. Even if you only play 2 Pridemage/Warmonks that looks toolboxish. If you really want their power ( they both are meta game calls for my meta, because we have a lot of CB/Top and Zoos ) you would play at least 3 of both.


Also you seem wanting to do alot, CB + survival + NO. IMO its better to controll you focus at doing 1 thing very good instead of doing 3 things good to okay.

But whats the focus of the list in the primer? Being stuck somewhere between Aggro and Control? LSV wrote a very nice article (http://strategy.channelfireball.com/featured-articles/initial-technology-the-meaning-of-midrange-and-why-its-terrible/) about midrange decks lately and it kind of inspired me to change the list :D

On the latest tournaments, i didn't have the Natural Orders in ( Brainstorms instead ) and the coexistence of CB and SotF worked out really well. But like i wrote in the german post above, its definitely crucial to know, when to use what engine if you have both in play. I'n situations like that i allways focused more on the CB softlock and in ~50% of the games it was the wrong way. So its more a fail on the pilot, then on the deck :D


I think a straight CB top with order list seems better since its able to protect its bombs better.

Yeah sure, but i needed a "Opps you just lost out of nowhere" card and a way to tutor Rafiq up without SotF in play, because he is so often the MVP. And besides i allways wanted a tutorable land ever since i play that deck. So after i added these part ... hm yeah then Progenitus wasn't far away. AND he's a good Survival pitch.

Waikiki
09-07-2009, 02:33 PM
You do not seem to understand the way this deck plays. This by far not a midrange deck. The role of the deck is to start aggro and follow up with a control peace called survival in the lategame. 2 war monk and 2 pridemage (+1 predator) isn't toobox its 2 maindeck lifegainers vs aggro and 3 answers to artifact enchantment maindeck. They are perfectly findable without survival. Dont look at survival as a toolbox engine but as a CA engine. A creature of your choice extra every turn.

Keeping mana open for sprite is almost never good if you got something relevant to cast, thats true. But after resolving a goyf and your board position is better then the position of the opponent I would not start and cast another thread untill he manages to deal with the goyf first. Thats the time sprite shines. It stops stp or cantrips searching for answers. if you got survival on top of that you could start chaining the faeries and win from there on.

LSV calls midrange decks decks unfocussed decks that do not have a purpose but simply have answers to the opponents thread. This deck tries only 1 route the creature route together with survival als late game bomb. I would call your deck more midrange then my version tbh. Trying to go CB top/ survival and NO. without any plan to back that up just try 1 of the 3 to work out. That seems more Midrange to me.

Tho Faeries are a personal flavor. I can agree if you do not like them in your playstyle.

XiaN
09-07-2009, 02:52 PM
Dont look at survival as a toolbox engine but as a CA engine. A creature of your choice extra every turn.

Its exactly the way i'm looking at SotF. CA and not more :tongue:


Thats the time sprite shines. It stops stp or cantrips searching for answers. if you got survival on top of that you could start chaining the faeries and win from there on.

But Kira does the same, only better. Ok, the faerie chain lightning is pretty solid, but only if the opponent first tries StP, then Terror, then Vindicate ... i hope you see the point. And you could simply chain him with more Gofy's.


I would call your deck more midrange then my version tbh. Trying to go CB top/ survival and NO. without any plan to back that up just try 1 of the 3 to work out. That seems more Midrange to me

Good point, touché and like a stated above, the list is under development :smile: . But i'm playing the deck the same way like you do. Try the creature route, SotF or NO as lategame bomb and protect the creatures with another ca-engine ( CB ). In most game you only counter keyspells or direct removal with the cb and you don't try to softlock him ( maybe if the board is def. in your favor ). I do not want to use CB as a softlock, but more like a recuring hardcounter for things like StP ...!

Maybe the Sprite is a personal flavor, but the intention of the post above was the argue about that point. Is she really needed or are there better options?

And please don't take it personal on YOUR list or YOUR playstyle. Its more meant as contribution to the overall development of Bant Survival.

Waikiki
09-07-2009, 02:58 PM
Not taking it personal, Just trying to defend the choices I made :)
I've cut the faeries from my list aswell. Later on I started to miss them and add them back in. Afcorse the meta could ask you to use the slots differently. So far sprite has been very good for me. If I would replace them I would just add in some other beatstick (pridemages/RWM goose anything u'd like, just watch out for the blue count). The reason I wanting to drop kira because again its only good as a "toolbox" card something Id like to avoid. wanting to have cards also good that do not need tutorring.

I think the list you posted is just better of working as a NO thresh list so it will have more counters (fow) to protect its bombs.

Jak
09-07-2009, 05:50 PM
Here is the list I developed over the past several month and which i'm currently playing with :

List

This of cause looks very different from the list currently discussed in this thread.

Here is a very long explanation ( but in german :really: ) about some anti-synergies, suboptimal cardchoises and problems i had with the "official" list.

I'll try to convert it to english under the week, but i'm currently busy.

I don't like the current direction of the "official" lists ( no offense here ), but if you discuss to include Mongoose then the deck more and more looks like a suboptimal Thresh-build. You could simply replace the survival engine with Thresh-cards and run much better tournament results :tongue:

Why do you write off Mongoose so quickly? Against Control, it is your best threat and it helps versus a turn one Lackey, which I feel is going to be a big problem again. In the late game, it gets bigger so it isn't a bad top deck. I really like the card. Will I survival for it often? No, but drawing it helps and if it is a bad card to have, then it gets pitched.

On Spellstutter Sprite. The card is good and bad, but I feel it is much, much better than Kira at protecting your threats. I think the problem you are having is knowing what role you are in. Sprite is bad against aggro (unless as a surprise blocker), but against control. you only need one threat. After you play your Goyf, leave mana open. It makes no sense to keep tapping out.

Now, to your list. I think you need to test it. You run no Force of Will which is needed to force down Survival, make sure your threats are protected, and in your case, get NO or Counterbalance to resolve. Your disruption comes online turn 2, which means combo has no trouble with you. I feel the deck already has a good control MU and a slightly better than even Counterbalance MU so running Counterbalance to strengthen those when Combo and Aggro are still difficult at times doesn't make sense to me.

NO is a good inclusion, but again, you are trying to do so many things in that list. You are trying to play Countertop, trying to win with NO, trying to play Survival, etc. Too much.

IMO, do this.

4 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Tundra
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Trygon Predator
1 Eternal Witness
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Progenitus

1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Wonder

4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Natural Order

Sideboard
3 Spell Snare
3 Krosan Grip
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Meddling Mage
1 Genesis
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Kira, Great Glass Spinner
1 Faerie Macabre

jeanbathez
09-08-2009, 05:00 AM
Last weekend i got my last 2 Noble Hierarchs, and now it was time to play my first tourney with Bant Survival. At first i would say : Thank you for developing this deck, it was fun to play, but it seems besides some big misplays by me i had some problems to play the deck correctly and i had problems with boarding, not what to bring in but what to take out in some games. So at first my list :

// Lands
1 [A] Tundra
4 [B] Tropical Island
2 [ON] Forest (1)
1 [10E] Plains (2)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [U] Savannah

// Creatures
2 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
4 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [FNM] Wonder
1 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [VI] Quirion Ranger
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [LRW] Ponder
4 [BD] Brainstorm
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 1 [JU] Genesis
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 [SHM] Faerie Maccabre

A very short report :
1. Round : 2:0 Ravager, there was no problem.

2. Round : 0:2 Canadian Thres : Game 1, he screwed me, Game 2 : I had him, but then i got too greedy, and forgot totally that canadian plays EE after SB, my Survival and goyfs ran into it, bad play, he then plays Mongoose, and i only found lands.......(Man that was a bad play by me !!).

3. Round : 0:2 : Soldiers : I was run over by, (you can't belief it : Soldiers), I didn't found 1 Sword in both games !!! And was attcked by 10/10 first strike soldiers, making even my goyfs small :-( Mistake i made : to make room i boarded out wonder, which was a big mistake, with her i would have been able to fly over for a win :cry:

4. Round : 2:0 Some strange sort of Team Amerca : No problems..

5. Round : 1:2 ANT : I had to make 1 mulligan in each game because of 4 or more lands, and him starting every game with duress...

So i'am not sure what to change, besides playing better ;-)
One problem i had : normally i play Gwb Survival Rock so sometimes i think i played the wrong game plan...

Waikiki
09-08-2009, 05:03 AM
your decks seems fine by me. You could check out my decklist in the openingspost it worked great for me. Other then that yeah practice alot. This deck punish you really hard for making the wrong move. I had to found out the hard way myself. Nice to see you picking up the deck.

Maybe you could give a bit more insight on your sb plans so I can give advice on that.

jeanbathez
09-08-2009, 05:33 AM
@Waikiki : Thanks, the deck is fun to play, but it seems it needs a lot of practice at least for me...I thought it would be easier after playing GWbr-Survival
My SB-plans from the top of my head :

Ravager : - Clique, -Sower +2 Krosan Grip

Canadian Thres : -Sower, -Pridemage + War Monk + Clique

Soldiers : -Clique - Wonder(Mistake!) + War Monk +1 Jitte (wasn't sure what to take out for the 2 other jittes, i didn't want to take out the spirtes, because he played swords and path to exile)

Strange TA : - Sower + Clique

ANT : - Sower -4 Swords (because i saw him didn't boarding anything so no confis came in) ; + War Monk, + 3 gaddock Teeg, + Clique

I wanted to add a spore frog for the Sb but didn't get any.

Waikiki
09-08-2009, 06:06 AM
seems nothing wrong with your sideboard plan. I do see you boarding out the sower out everytime. Myself aren't even playing him maindeck anymore. Maybe you could do the same.

jeanbathez
09-08-2009, 06:33 AM
Thanks, its good to know, that even my SB-plan works :smile:

I looked at your decklist at the first post, it had 18 lands, i play with 20 and had sometimes the feeling that were too much, not sure about that ?
Is that your present list at the first page ?

Waikiki
09-08-2009, 06:38 AM
Yes thats the list I would take to an unknown meta. altho Id might drop the kira in favor of ponder #4 (wanting to try out nimble mongoose in the spell snare slot)

jeanbathez
09-08-2009, 06:51 AM
Yes thats the list I would take to an unknown meta. altho Id might drop the kira in favor of ponder #4 (wanting to try out nimble mongoose in the spell snare slot)

Mongoose seems interesting (needs testing), but i saw you only play 3 sprites, don't you want to go up to 4 if you cut spell snare ?

@lands : I saw that Jak. and you both played only 18/19, was that enough, i'am not sure if 20 land aren't too much ?

Waikiki
09-08-2009, 07:13 AM
unless you are in a meta with alot of wasteland or sinkhole action 18 will do just fine together with 4 hierarch and 7 cantrips.

Sprite isn't a card I want to see in my starting hand too often because it starts shining in after you put a thread on the table. 3 Has been enough for me.

Jak
09-08-2009, 11:46 AM
Another thing to help you (jeanbathez) against aggro is Path to Exile. I have been loving them in so many MUs. Your list looks good, just play around with it some more :).

jeanbathez
09-09-2009, 09:33 AM
Another thing to help you (jeanbathez) against aggro is Path to Exile. I have been loving them in so many MUs. Your list looks good, just play around with it some more :).

Thank you Jak. I also thought about Path to Exile, but atm i like Jitte more, but perhaps needs trying.
I think you are right i need to play more with that (updated) list :smile: , it plays different to Survival-Rock Variants...

jeanbathez
09-15-2009, 05:56 AM
So played the deck last weekend, to a third place from 22.

My List :

// Lands
1 [A] Tundra
4 [B] Tropical Island
2 [ON] Forest (1)
1 [10E] Plains (2)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [U] Savannah

// Creatures
3 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
4 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [FNM] Wonder
1 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [LRW] Ponder
4 [BD] Brainstorm
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 1 [JU] Genesis
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Spore Frog
SB: 1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre



Round 1 Landstill : Game 1 i got him with a sprite which got the spell snare for my survival ;-), from there on i had no problem, game 2 humlity got me, game 3 he was screw, but sadly we went out if time. (1:1)

Round 2 Mono Blue : game 1 and 2, too much for him to handle... (2:0)

Round 3 : Eternal Garden : game 1 he wasted me away.., game 2 won by hierachs and some goyf beats, game 3 he was screw after a mulligan (with eternal garden !!) (2:1)

Runde 4 : Gbw Survival : Game 1 i was screw, but i didn't let him know i play survival, so game 2 was won by Faerie Macabre and stop his nightmare and destroy/counter the survivals.., game 3 spore frog lock, with beats in the air ;-)

Runde 5 : Canadian Thres : (If i could win this, i would come in 1. Place)

Game 1 i made a big mistake, we both had two goyfs out, and i had survival but few lands thanks to 3 wastelands by him in the early turns, so i thought take wonder and fly over, but i forgot that he wasted my tropical island.....:frown:
Game 2 won after drawing all my 4 forces, and betating down with pridemage, where were my BS, Ponder Survivals but 4 forces were als o.k. :-)

Game 3 going into extra turns, after him taking the wrong card with his clique, i had a chance after drawing my war monk of winning, but i was missing a few turns to beat him down, so only 3. Place..

So next time i hope that my opponents and i play faster, two times extras turns costing me the game....

Jokemon
09-15-2009, 07:56 AM
How does Sower work for you, i myself play Gilded Drake and found him better, since protectiong Sower is a bitch.

Waikiki
09-15-2009, 08:26 AM
Sower is better in a CB meta. (I dont play any md, 1 sower sb) Hardly ever feel the need in stealing a creature.

Congrats on your finish! Your playskills are improving since last tournament well done. Nice list.

jeanbathez
09-15-2009, 08:44 AM
Sower is better in a CB meta. (I dont play any md, 1 sower sb) Hardly ever feel the need in stealing a creature.

Congrats on your finish! Your playskills are improving since last tournament well done. Nice list.

Thank you Waikiki, it's good to hear that !!!! :-)

But i must admit this fault against Canadian Thres Game 1 (forgetting that i have no island) was devasting, but THAT would never happen again, believe me !!!! and cost me perhaps the first place !!!!

I also thought about adding Sower from Main to SB.

The matchup against eternal garden is bad or isn't it, i couldn't handle nultiple wasteland (bisdes Quirion Ranger which i don't had) and how to handle Tabernacle besides getting more hierachs and attacking

Waikiki
09-15-2009, 09:22 AM
The deck isn't played here so I hardly considder doing anything against it. My guess is with the new UG fetch we can now play basic island forest and plains. This will help in the waste matchup. Also vs a deck like that I think the best is to get some untargetable creature in your deck ( gigapede perhaps?) together with wonder can do alot of damage. But thats simply a guess I have no experience in that matchup.

Black Mass
09-15-2009, 10:52 AM
It's been a while since I've posted my list and I have to say I changed a lot from my previous one thanks to all of your comments here.

manabase
2x forest
4x wooded foothills
4x windswept heath
4x Tropical island
3x savannah
1x Tundra

creatures
4x tarmogoyf
4x noble hierarch
2x quasali pridemage
3x rhox war monk
1x rafiq of the many
1x kira, great glass spinner
1x wonder
1x squee, goblin nabob
1x venidllion clique
1x gilded drake

enchantments
4x survival of the fittest

artifacts
3x aether vial

instants
4x force of will
4x brainstorm
3x spell snare

sideboard
2x tormod's crypt
3x krosan grip
1x genesis
1x spore frog
2x vendillion clique
3x path to exile
1x gaddock teeg
2x meddling mage


explanations
-4x Spellstutter Sprite: I allways felt safe having the around in the deck. Counters you can tutor for, sounds comforting, but in all my testing I never really had the chance to counter game-altering spells. Sure they're great agains removal like StP or bolts, but suck against anything with cc higher than 1. I didn't want to cut back on three, so I decided to scratch them from the main and insert three spell snares and play RWM to have a tutorable blue card for force.

3x rhox war monk: I have allways been hesitant ageins this creature, allthough he's really good, nothing wrong about is. But in my former experience with survival I have allways liked kitchen finks. With reason I think, since he can chump goyf twice, gains you life the minute you play it and can survive a deed. Nonetheless I had to choose RWM because I had cut Spellstutter Sprite thus making the Blue count a littele low. He was actually second on my list, but he'll do.

3x Aether vial: Beastman, you didn't talk shit when you recommended this card. Vial actually belongs in this deck, everytime I see it I'm glad. Why 3 than? I like them early on and the less and less in the late game. They still could be solid draws in the late, you'd start to prefer something else by then. Also I didn't find the room for them.

Gilded drake: Sower seems too expensive form me and is very hard to protect in this deck, even with Kira in the main. Plus, I want to have a vial @2 in play for my goyfs and my pridemages, GD fits the curve in that way too.

I know the deck isn't perfect, but help is very much appreciated. I sure hope it runs good this sunday.

jeanbathez
09-15-2009, 11:35 AM
How does Sower work for you, i myself play Gilded Drake and found him better, since protectiong Sower is a bitch.

I think (like Waikiki) i would move my Sower to the SB, atm we don't have too much cb, so most of the time its not needed. I don't like Gilded Drake, when i'am against cb i want sower, in the other games, i think there better things to do, then play a drake...

@Black Mass : I like Sprites and atm i don't want to cut them, perhaps going down to three. Sprite is an allstar, protecing your gyofs, war monks ; or countering spell snare, and whats important, opponent try to play around them in game 2 and 3, which can be a great tempowin ; it can be flashed in before a standstill resolves and and and

Black Mass
09-15-2009, 11:59 AM
I know, but I never have 2 mana to spare in the early game and especially not when I played a goyf, with 18 lands I don't think I'll be able to have 4 or more mana on the board. That's where vial coms in, with vial I don't have to worry about spell snare and if I want protection for my creatures I'll fetch Kira. I have chosen quality creatures over utility, making me play a tad more aggressive and putting the opponent in the defensive the first 3 turns, I think (can't say for sure, but it certainly feels that way).
In the whole, my goal was primarily to improve the loam matchup that sucks. I still have the idea that loam is quite heavily played in Belgium and I want to be prepared. I'm quite confident about the choices I made, but I'll know more after sunday.

Waikiki
09-15-2009, 12:06 PM
Last tournament in antwerp I saw 1 maybe 2 loam decks out of 51 players.
I think the sb will be able to fix the loam matchup.

imo sprites aren't needed in the early game. cause you will cast beatsticks first. Then hold mana open for sprite or cast survival. proceed to win.

Atm im testing my spellsnare slot to replace them with either mongoose/meddling mage and ...... mother of runes!

XiaN
09-15-2009, 07:03 PM
HeHe :laugh: ... talking about the loam matchup i have something for you.

Because i finally wanted to decide whether i'm on the wrong road with my attempt of Survival Bant or all you guys are wrong ( :cool: :laugh: ). So i took a nearly mirror of Waikiki's list to my playgroup this day and played 10 rounds of magic with it.

And what else to say ... i think i was wrong. But lets go into the details :

I played


1 [P3] Plains (3)
1 [P3] Forest (2)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [A] Tropical Island
1 [A] Tundra
3 [A] Savannah

// Creatures
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
2 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
1 [ALA] Rafiq of the Many
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [JU] Wonder

// Spells
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
3 [LRW] Ponder
3 [DIS] Spell Snare

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Path to Exile
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 1 Genesis
SB: 1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
SB: 1 Trygon Predator

Some notes about the list, befor i go to the MU analysis.


18 Lands : Worked out pretty well. But i would only run 18 if you run at least 6 cantrips or AEther Vial. If you're not playing on of those, 19 or better 20 is the call. The deck shines, if it has a lot of mana to play with.
No basic island : I realy REALY missed that one. I'll fit one in for on Savannah.
No AEther Vial : I miss them. They are really good on the first few turns and the worst topdeck ever. I think its dedicated to the way you want to run the deck. If you want to be the aggressor play them, if you are the "ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh" like player ... don't run them.
2 RWM | 2 QPM : Seems fine for me. A meta call to run either 2 or 3 of them. If you're in a mixed meta like mine, play 2 each.
Kira and Predator in the SB : See above. I think they belong to the SB ( but have fixed slots there ), but this depends on your meta.
3 Spell Snare : Def. better then daze. I really like them, but have to test them more. Their debut was really good.
My SB : A leftover from my list. Really random and you should not run it.
-> Path was nice. Needs more testing.
-> Teeg seems good in controll and combo MUs, but has allways been to slow against combo for me. Will be reduced to 1 and replaced by the new AntiCombo trap ( holy lord ... i love this trap )
-> Genesis : Seems fine, but i never boarded it in ... never since the last 40 matches
-> 1 RWM, 1 QPM, 1 Kira, Predator : Fixed slots for me
-> 1 Meddling Mage : Allways boarded it against combo, but only won one game out of 30 matches. Will be cutted for the new trap.


Ok, then back to the MU. I tested 3 games against a mid-experienced loam player and 7 games against a highly skilled Threshold player with a established Threshold UGwb list. I like this matchup, because the games are very skill intensive and in my opinion its the deck we have to compare our build against.

If you want to have fun with our build, play against very experienced Zoo or Thresh lists and players. These MUs are the real fun ... at least for me :laugh:

LoaM : MU

*As quick note : i hate this deck. Not in the negative way, but it's as synergistic as Affinity was before the banning. Whatever you handle, they have a new thread every fucking draw they have. An annoying MU. Played against this (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27755) list. This list was developed by a player in my test group ( Christian ), is the most established list of Aggro Loam around the world, but the player i faced replaced Goyfs with Terravore because of budget reasons*

Played 3 matches and won 3 of them. Played a lot of matches against it before.

Some tips for this MU :

Do not ... under any circumstances overextend on your manabase : What ever you do, never EVER play all the lands you have in hand. Grow your manabase to 3-4 lands AND STAY THERE. Allways have the mana to post-dreams times in hand. If you're low on mana, ALLWAYS keep a counter for the dreams. ALLWAYS!
Fetch for basics : Sounds hard, because we need a lot of colored mana, but fetch for basics. If you have the counter for dreams, you might fetch some nonbasics, but look out for the Wasteland/Loam lock.
Postboard the MU gets a lot better. Get in some Paths and clear every dude they play. Keep a counter for the assault and you should be fine. You might let a dreams resolve as well, as long as you have the land and removal in hand for their next dude.
Ravens Crime sux as hell. Most likely MVP against us :cry:


Threshold UGwb

Played 7 matches and won 4 without boarding and 2 after boarding. Lost one due to manaflood, after a very very strong hand ( 2 Goyfs, 2 Survival, 1 Ponder, 1 Brainstrom, 1 Tropical Island ... but 10 lands after this ). Played against a list with 2-3 Clique, 4 cb/top, 4 force/daze, 4 Bob, 4 Swords, 3-4 Jitte, Shakles, no Goose and ... well all the rest main. In the SB he had all the hate against us ... 3 Threads of Disloyality, more Shackles and Path. He sided out 4 CB and 1-2 Tops for these the games we sideboarded.

Not much to say here. A pretty even MU. Shine via your Softskills : Trashtalk, get some information about your oponents hand via body language and the information you get via trash talk. Imo this is the key to this matchup.

But some tips :

Your spot removal is golden in this mu. They play very few threads. You can easyly block their Goose, but keep rid of their Bobs.
Survival is MVP here. You can only win this MU via CA. Play Survival only if you're sure that it will comes down. Most likely its gg then.
Slow role : No need the hurry in this MU. Try to let them take the aggressor part. Really let them ... no better position you can have here.


I sided out 2 RMW, 2 Ponder and 1 Spell snare for 1 Kira, 1 Predator, 1 QPM and 2 Grips in both SB-MU's. Kira was REALLY good in both games.

Yeah and thats it ... don't know about my list ... fun to play, but the more fixed lists are simply better. CB/Top doesn't belong to this deck, but i'm still fighting with the Sprites. 3 was fine ( nn 4 :cool: ), but they still suck because of every reason mentioned above :laugh:

Black Mass
09-16-2009, 04:57 AM
Last tournament in antwerp I saw 1 maybe 2 loam decks out of 51 players.
I think the sb will be able to fix the loam matchup.

imo sprites aren't needed in the early game. cause you will cast beatsticks first. Then hold mana open for sprite or cast survival. proceed to win.

Atm im testing my spellsnare slot to replace them with either mongoose/meddling mage and ...... mother of runes!

It has been a while since my last tournament, but lately I was never happy to see a sprite. Or they had an answer to turn 2 goyf right away, or they only came late game where a 1/1 flyer doesn't add that much to your board. Spell snare, even only in 3's seems a much more solid in the early game especially against combo, thresh and loam. BUT tomorrow is my final testing day before sunday and I'll try them as a 3 off.

Waikiki
09-16-2009, 05:01 AM
I wish you good luck sunday, I won't be able to make it due to obligations.

losada
09-16-2009, 07:12 AM
HI, I'm a spanish player. The meta here is very clear: landstill, merfolks, cb and goyfslight/naya. Combo is not played, and loam and rock are coming back. At the moment, the list i'm running is:

4 x Flooded Strand
3 x Windswept heath
4 x Tropical Island
3 x Savannah
1 x Tundra
1 x Forest
1 x Plain
1 x Island

4 x Survival of the fittest
4 x Aether vial
4 x Force of will
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Swords to plowshares
4 x Tarmogoyf
4 x Noble hierarch
4 x Spellstutter sprite
3 x Qasali pridemage
2 x Rhox war monk
2 x Vendilion clique
1 x Squee
1 x Wonder
1 x Trygon predator

My side looks like this (I usually change it in ever tournament).
1 x Genesis
1 x Spore frog
1 x Rhox war monk
1 x Trygon predator
1 x Jotun grunt
1 x Gaddock Teeg
3 x Meddling mage
2 x Krosan grip
3 x Relic of progenitus
1 x I dont remember right now, xD

I'm very happy with spellstutter, with vial is awesome. But i'm thinking to change 1 of them into a Kira. Vendilion is also great. Maybe a Shower instead of 1 of them

XiaN
09-16-2009, 06:55 PM
Hi losada

On your manabase : I would consider adding one more Heath for one Savannah. Fetching > Drawing the land you want to fetch for ( aka dual ).

And Spellsnare seems to be a must include in your meta. Hits every key relevant card for just U ... i would take it :cool:

The vial seems to be fine too. But i would reduce it to 3. You never really want to draw more then one each game and with a little more cantriping ( Ponder ) it'll be on your hand almost every time.

I would cut one RWM, because you don't need the lifegain in the most faced MUs in your meta. I would even go down to 2 QPM, but thats personal taste. 3 may be fine.

And go down to 3 Sprites. Thats just the right number to run. Maybe, but only maybe you'll run 4, because of the Swords heavy meta you face. 3 Sprites is the way to go imo. Crappy 1/1 flyer :laugh: ( See above for more explanation )

I would consider running 3 Ponder main, because they make your 18 land manabase much more solid and feed your goyf with the much needed sorcery. ( Realy missed that sorcery in some games )


1 x Genesis
1 x Spore frog
1 x Rhox war monk
1 x Trygon predator
1 x Jotun grunt
1 x Gaddock Teeg
3 x Meddling mage
2 x Krosan grip
3 x Relic of progenitus
1 x I dont remember right now, xD

You don't need Spore Frog or Genesis in your meta. Nether do they destroy all stuff like in a DeathGuy Ale meta, nor do you face a lot of really aggressiv aggro ( like goblins ). Cut them and you'll be happy :tongue:

3 Meddling Mage ... yeah well, if you see no combo in your meta, there is no reason to run more then one.

Jotun Grund is crap all day long. You don't need an advanced aggro-mu, because most likely you'll be the passive deck. And even in the aggro-mu's : you'll shrunk you own goyf's for a temp. 4/4? This guy is simply wrong in this deck, even in the sb :tongue:

And Relic of Progenitus is simply wrong in your sb, too. Want to remove your Wonder and Squee for them? You want to shrink your goyfs down to 0/1 when your opp is on 3-4 life? No way! If you fear graveyards ( against dredge or loam ) run crypts. Really, RoP is one of the best sb hate against us and you'll board it in preboard. Nice aid for your enemy :laugh:

And even ( see my tips above ) you should not lose against Thresh builds. For loam its get harder, but it's doable.

Jak
09-16-2009, 07:10 PM
The vial seems to be fine too. But i would reduce it to 3. You never really want to draw more then one each game and with a little more cantriping ( Ponder ) it'll be on your hand almost every time.

The best time for Vial is early so reducing the chances of seeing it in your opening hand is wrong.


I would cut one RWM, because you don't need the lifegain in the most faced MUs in your meta. I would even go down to 2 QPM, but thats personal taste. 3 may be fine.

He said he had Zoo and Goyf Sligh in his metagame. I don't understand why you would suggest cutting this.



And go down to 3 Sprites. Thats just the right number to run. Maybe, but only maybe you'll run 4, because of the Swords heavy meta you face. 3 Sprites is the way to go imo. Crappy 1/1 flyer :laugh: ( See above for more explanation )

I don't think there is a set number of Sprites to run. The card is just better with the more Faeries you run so a 4 of makes it more powerful oviously. Now, the question is, what is the right number to run it if you just need it for the Pro-Swords?


I would consider running 3 Ponder main, because they make your 18 land manabase much more solid and feed your goyf with the much needed sorcery. ( Realy missed that sorcery in some games )

18 Lands is really fine with 4 Vials and 4 Hierarch. Builds with Vial just don't have the room for Ponder and adding it means cutting creatures which then just weakens both of your main cards, Vial and Survival.


You don't need Spore Frog or Genesis in your meta. Nether do they destroy all stuff like in a DeathGuy Ale meta, nor do you face a lot of really aggressiv aggro ( like goblins ). Cut them and you'll be happy :tongue:

I agree with you on the Spore Frog, but Genesis is amazing against landstill and The Rock, which he does see. I don't really understand this paragraph.


3 Meddling Mage ... yeah well, if you see no combo in your meta, there is no reason to run more then one.

Mage is also for Loam and Control, not just combo. I would try cutting one for another Gaddock Teeg to even things up. The combo wins versus control.

Edit-


HeHe :laugh: ... talking about the loam matchup i have something for you.

Because i finally wanted to decide whether i'm on the wrong road with my attempt of Survival Bant or all you guys are wrong ( :cool: :laugh: ). So i took a nearly mirror of Waikiki's list to my playgroup this day and played 10 rounds of magic with it.

And what else to say ... i think i was wrong. But lets go into the details :

At least you are coming around :)


Ok, then back to the MU. I tested 3 games against a mid-experienced loam player and 7 games against a highly skilled Threshold player with a established Threshold UGwb list. I like this matchup, because the games are very skill intensive and in my opinion its the deck we have to compare our build against.

If you want to have fun with our build, play against very experienced Zoo or Thresh lists and players. These MUs are the real fun ... at least for me :laugh:

LoaM : MU

*As quick note : i hate this deck. Not in the negative way, but it's as synergistic as Affinity was before the banning. Whatever you handle, they have a new thread every fucking draw they have. An annoying MU. Played against this (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27755) list. This list was developed by a player in my test group ( Christian ), is the most established list of Aggro Loam around the world, but the player i faced replaced Goyfs with Terravore because of budget reasons*

Played 3 matches and won 3 of them. Played a lot of matches against it before.

Some tips for this MU :

Do not ... under any circumstances overextend on your manabase : What ever you do, never EVER play all the lands you have in hand. Grow your manabase to 3-4 lands AND STAY THERE. Allways have the mana to post-dreams times in hand. If you're low on mana, ALLWAYS keep a counter for the dreams. ALLWAYS!
Fetch for basics : Sounds hard, because we need a lot of colored mana, but fetch for basics. If you have the counter for dreams, you might fetch some nonbasics, but look out for the Wasteland/Loam lock.
Postboard the MU gets a lot better. Get in some Paths and clear every dude they play. Keep a counter for the assault and you should be fine. You might let a dreams resolve as well, as long as you have the land and removal in hand for their next dude.
Ravens Crime sux as hell. Most likely MVP against us :cry:


How did you SB? I always have trouble SBing against it because my SB is chocked full of cards I want to bring in. Mage, Snare, Paths, and Grips. I usually take out 2 War Monk (leaving one), 4 Sprites, 2 ??? (I guess it depends on what I am feeling at the time. Could be the 3rd Monk, Cliques, Mongeese, etc), and 1 Trygon for 2 Grips, 2 Mage, 3 Spell Snare, and 2 Path.



Threshold UGwb

Played 7 matches and won 4 without boarding and 2 after boarding. Lost one due to manaflood, after a very very strong hand ( 2 Goyfs, 2 Survival, 1 Ponder, 1 Brainstrom, 1 Tropical Island ... but 10 lands after this ). Played against a list with 2-3 Clique, 4 cb/top, 4 force/daze, 4 Bob, 4 Swords, 3-4 Jitte, Shakles, no Goose and ... well all the rest main. In the SB he had all the hate against us ... 3 Threads of Disloyality, more Shackles and Path. He sided out 4 CB and 1-2 Tops for these the games we sideboarded.

Not much to say here. A pretty even MU. Shine via your Softskills : Trashtalk, get some information about your oponents hand via body language and the information you get via trash talk. Imo this is the key to this matchup.

But some tips :

Your spot removal is golden in this mu. They play very few threads. You can easyly block their Goose, but keep rid of their Bobs.
Survival is MVP here. You can only win this MU via CA. Play Survival only if you're sure that it will comes down. Most likely its gg then.
Slow role : No need the hurry in this MU. Try to let them take the aggressor part. Really let them ... no better position you can have here.


I sided out 2 RMW, 2 Ponder and 1 Spell snare for 1 Kira, 1 Predator, 1 QPM and 2 Grips in both SB-MU's. Kira was REALLY good in both games.

Yeah and thats it ... don't know about my list ... fun to play, but the more fixed lists are simply better. CB/Top doesn't belong to this deck, but i'm still fighting with the Sprites. 3 was fine ( nn 4 :cool: ), but they still suck because of every reason mentioned above :laugh:

[/QUOTE]

I don't understand why Threshold would board out CB...

You also said the deck had no Goose, but you also said our creatures can block them... Are you just talking about in general?

Sounds like your testing went well. I am glad you are liking the deck.

XiaN
09-16-2009, 08:03 PM
The best time for Vial is early so reducing the chances of seeing it in your opening hand is wrong.
Yes of cause, but thats a taste of how you play this deck. If you're on the reactive side, you let their CB resolve and play around it. If you play active, you'll simply Spellsnare it and go on. And ... yeah well we should finally decide, when Vial is needed. Imo ( and i might be wrong ) Vial is not needed. Tested it for over 50 matches and yes the vial is very nice, but you don't need it for our plan.

The difference of vialing in a creature at the end of the opps turn and simply playing it in your turn is 1! mana. All you need the react in on an opps turn is one Tundra open. You'd either play StP or Spellsnare to respond to their threads or play the Force, where you don't need mana open. At best you need 2 mana open : One for the response to their thread ( Snare or StP ) and one for Brainstorm action or two mana for the Sprite. I don't see any reason for the Vial, except that you might need the pseudo haste ( eot creature ... ) in an aggro heavy meta. But in an control heavy meta you most likely want the counter their thread, then to pseudo haste.


He said he had Zoo and Goyf Sligh in his metagame. I don't understand why you would suggest cutting this.
You should win the Sligh matchup anyway ( see above ) and against Zoo the RWM is MVP, no doubt. If he sees a lot of "burn" coming up, play the second RWM, but with mostly Sligh/Thresh/ITF coming up they are not needed. A metagame call. Facing a mixed meta i would never go below 2 RWM.


I don't think there is a set number of Sprites to run. The card is just better with the more Faeries you run so a 4 of makes it more powerful oviously. Now, the question is, what is the right number to run it if you just need it for the Pro-Swords?
In my personal taste i would run 3 Sprite 2 Clique or 4 Sprite 0 Clique. On his meta i would never ever cut the cliques, because they are just ridiculously good against control ( at the end of your draw step in your face and you can choose to not remove a card and not let them draw a new card :cry: ).


18 Lands is really fine with 4 Vials and 4 Hierarch. Builds with Vial just don't have the room for Ponder and adding it means cutting creatures which then just weakens both of your main cards, Vial and Survival.
Yeah, but without the Vial its pretty hard to face a wall of 4 stifle and 4 wasteland. Correctly played ( see above ) you should be in pretty good shape as well against Thresh/ITF/Whatever.

If you don't run Vials ( and even with vials ) you need stabilize you manabase. If you hold the 1 Land 1 Hierarch 1 Vial + x land against a Thresh build you are most likely to loose this game, because you're totally out of the game with one KGrip.


I agree with you on the Spore Frog, but Genesis is amazing against landstill and The Rock, which he does see. I don't really understand this paragraph.
You'll win the Landstill MU anyway .. post and preboard. And how'd you like to pay Genesis after a Dreams hit you?


Mage is also for Loam and Control, not just combo. I would try cutting one for another Gaddock Teeg to even things up. The combo wins versus control.
For combo the mage is to slow. In my meta, you'll never reach turn 2 on the play in allmost 80% of the games against combo. And what to hit with that mage against controll? Swords? But then you'll need Path in the SB ( which isn't a bad idea imo ). Against loam ... yeah well ... hit DDream and then they will will kill the mage via SAssault and kill you anyway.

And like i stated above, correctly played and with a bit of luck on your side, you may win this mu anyway. And even better you can Crypt away their draw/wasteland engine.


How did you SB? I always have trouble SBing against it because my SB is chocked full of cards I want to bring in. Mage, Snare, Paths, and Grips. I usually take out 2 War Monk (leaving one), 4 Sprites, 2 ??? (I guess it depends on what I am feeling at the time. Could be the 3rd Monk, Cliques, Mongeese, etc), and 1 Trygon for 2 Grips, 2 Mage, 3 Spell Snare, and 2 Path.
I did no SB against him. If i would run crypt in the sb, i would bring them in.


I don't understand why Threshold would board out CB...

You also said the deck had no Goose, but you also said our creatures can block them... Are you just talking about in general?
Because Threads of D. are simply better against us then CB. We can easily play around the CB with RWM and Rafiq with wonder.

And yes, we can easily block their Gooses. So the MVP against other decks is simply a chumpblock for us ( Clique, Gofy, Rafiq .. ).


Sounds like your testing went well. I am glad you are liking the deck.
From the beginning ... this deck is great :laugh:

Jak
09-16-2009, 08:32 PM
Yes of cause, but thats a taste of how you play this deck. If you're on the reactive side, you let their CB resolve and play around it. If you play active, you'll simply Spellsnare it and go on. And ... yeah well we should finally decide, when Vial is needed. Imo ( and i might be wrong ) Vial is not needed. Tested it for over 50 matches and yes the vial is very nice, but you don't need it for our plan.

Again, I am not understanding what you are saying, and I doubt you are understanding me. Vial is better turn 1 than it is turn 4. Are you disputing this? You also go on about reactive and active which I don't think you understand. Countering their Counterbalance with Snare is the reactive play.

I am not saying the deck needs Vial, what I am saying is that if you run it (which there is incentive to run it), running 4 gives you the best chance of having it when Vial is at its best.


The difference of vialing in a creature at the end of the opps turn and simply playing it in your turn is 1! mana. All you need the react in on an opps turn is one Tundra open. You'd either play StP or Spellsnare to respond to their threads or play the Force, where you don't need mana open. At best you need 2 mana open : One for the response to their thread ( Snare or StP ) and one for Brainstorm action or two mana for the Sprite. I don't see any reason for the Vial, except that you might need the pseudo haste ( eot creature ... ) in an aggro heavy meta. But in an control heavy meta you most likely what the counter for their thread, then the pseudo haste.

Again, what are you talking about? Vial accelerates the deck, provides instant speed blockers, allows you to spend your mana on Survival, Brainstorm, Swords, etc while you still play creatures, allows your creatures to get by counters, etc. There are numerous reasons to run the card. It sounds like you think the card is bad because we can already do stuff on the opponent's turn, which isn't the reason Vial is run at all.


You should win the Sligh matchup anyway ( see above ) and against Zoo the RWM is MVP, no doubt. If he sees a lot of "burn" coming up, play the second RWM, but with mostly Sligh/Thresh/ITF coming up they are not needed. A metagame call. Facing a mixed meta i would never go below 2 RWM.

Do you know what Sligh is? It is a deck packed with burn and efficient creatures. Think Zoo, but with more burn. In a meta with Zoo and Sligh, running more than 1 is optimal. I think running three would serve losada better. I believe you are just confusing Sligh with another deck similar to a Counterbalance deck.


In my personal taste i would run 3 Sprite 2 Clique or 4 Sprite 0 Clique. On his meta i would never ever cut the cliques, because they are just ridiculously good against control ( at the end of your draw step in your face and you can choose to not remove a card and not let them draw a new card :cry: ).

I never said to cut the Cliques. Cliques are amazing and probably my favorite creature in the deck. What I am questioning is the right number of Sprites which no one has the answer for.


Yeah, but without the Vial its pretty hard to face a wall of 4 stifle and 4 wasteland. Correctly played ( see above ) you should be in pretty good shape as well against Thresh/ITF/Whatever.

If you don't run Vials ( and even with vials ) you need stabilize you manabase. If you hold the 1 Land 1 Hierarch 1 Vial + x land against a Thresh build you are most likely to loose this game, because you're totally out of the game with one KGrip.

I know how to face mana denial, thanks, and with 18 lands, 4 Hierarchs, and 4 Vials, you shouldn't have a problem. The new fetch just improves the mana base.

I fail to see how 2 lands, Hierarch, and a Vial will be easily disrupted. They can't even cast the Grip until turn 3, so even if you do somehow get mana screwed with 2-3 draws, more lands should be there.


You'll win the Landstill MU anyway .. post and preboard. And how would you like to pay Genesis after a Dreams hit you?

Landstill doesn't play Dreams... It does run Wrath of God, EE, Vindicate, and Disk though so being able to keep resurfacing through all the removal is what will win you the game.


For combo the mage is to slow. In my meta, you'll never reach turn 2 on the play in allmost 80% of the games against combo. And what to hit with that mage against controll? Swords? But then you'll need Path in the SB ( which isn't a bad idea imo ). Against loam ... yeah well ... hit DDream and then they will will kill the mage via SAssault and kill you anyway.

And like i stated above, correctly played and with a bit of luck on your side, you may win this mu anyway. And even better you can Crypt away their draw/wasteland engine.

Mage versus combo is not too slow. You do realize that there are other ways of disrupting them, right? They will be slowed down so you can then drop the Mage. Against control you hit their removal like Swords. If they have a recursion thing going, like EE or Loam, hit it. Control varies too much for me to give you an exact answer. Against Loam, you name Loam... You have answers for DD and Assault already.


Because Threads of D. are simply better against us then CB. We can easily play around the CB with RWM and Rafiq with wonder.

And yes, we can easily block their Gooses. So the MVP against other decks is simply a chumpblock for us ( Clique, Gofy, Rafiq .. ).

We can also easily play around Threads with RWM, Rafiq, and Wonder... Grip as well. Counterbalance is still good against us like it is the other 80% of the format.

I asked you how Mongoose magically showed up in your tips when you said it wasn't in the list, not if you could chump block it...

losada
09-17-2009, 05:35 AM
I am not saying the deck needs Vial, what I am saying is that if you run it (which there is incentive to run it), running 4 gives you the best chance of having it when Vial is at its best.


+1. I think that if you run vial, you want see it in your opening hand.



In a meta with Zoo and Sligh, running more than 1 is optimal. I think running three would serve losada better.


I think 2 is the correct number. The third is in side, and i have my doubts about it...



I never said to cut the Cliques. Cliques are amazing and probably my favorite creature in the deck. What I am questioning is the right number of Sprites which no one has the answer for.


Cliques are powerful. With Vial is great, but also if you don`t have Vial, flash is amazing too. Two is the number. If you must remove it with FOW, you have the second one.



Mage versus combo is not too slow. You do realize that there are other ways of disrupting them, right? They will be slowed down so you can then drop the Mage. Against control you hit their removal like Swords. If they have a recursion thing going, like EE or Loam, hit it. Control varies too much for me to give you an exact answer. Against Loam, you name Loam... You have answers for DD and Assault already.


I also think, like Jak, that you can play mage against a lot of decks that are not combo: Canadian Threshold, Loam, Landstill, Rock with Loam...

I'm thinking about spellsnare. And yes, I must include Tormods instead Relic... Yesterday, playing against a Survival Elf, and I have no way to win. A lot of good creatures for only 4 swords and 4 fows...

Waikiki
09-17-2009, 06:38 AM
In a mete with zoo/sligh I would never go down to running less then 2 rhox war monk maindeck. and at least 1 sb. They are really needed in this matchup.

Personally I would not run vial at all. Its a sucky topdeck and its really not needed at all imo. (I never have problems getting my creatures through or wanting the vial) IMO ponder is just way stronger (upping blue count + card quality)

Personally im very happy with my list and currently testing out the mongooses in the spell snare slot for a more aggro meta. They are really strong so far. Looking forward in testing mother of runes.

XiaN
09-17-2009, 09:00 AM
Vial is better turn 1 than it is turn 4. Are you disputing this?
YEEEESSSSSS ... Turn 18 is even better then the turn 1 vial *irony* :tongue:


You also go on about reactive and active which I don't think you understand. Countering their Counterbalance with Snare is the reactive play.
I mistaked this one. Of cause countering the balance is the reactive play and vial the active one :laugh:


I believe you are just confusing Sligh with another deck similar to a Counterbalance deck.
And again you're right. I know what Sligh is, but i was kind of confused yesterday :cool:


What I am questioning is the right number of Sprites which no one has the answer for.
And thats why i throw the 3 Sprite / 2 Clique or 4 Sprite / 0 Clique split into the discussion. I never said, that you said to cut the cliques :tongue:


I fail to see how 2 lands, Hierarch, and a Vial will be easily disrupted. They can't even cast the Grip until turn 3, so even if you do somehow get mana screwed with 2-3 draws, more lands should be there.
I actually played and lost that hand. He was on the play with land go. I played fetch, he stifled. He played land go, i played dual and vial. He played land go. I put a counter on my vial and passed. I draw-go, i vialed in hierarch, had no play and lost to a EE @ one followed with a wasteland one turn later.


Landstill doesn't play Dreams... It does run Wrath of God, EE, Vindicate, and Disk though so being able to keep resurfacing through all the removal is what will win you the game.
I know that landstill doesn't play dreams. But you mentioned that Genesis will help in the LoaM MU and i don't think it does. Facing recurring wasteland, EE and you need at least 5 mana sources to efficiently recure cump blocker for their crushers. Maybe i'm playing against the wrong LoaM decks, but i'm happy to perm. get 3 lands in play in this matchup. And in most of my games against loam i never exceeded 3 lands.

And landstill runs only EE here.


Mage versus combo is not too slow.
In my experience it is, but that might differ from the combo's played at your tournaments. They get rid of it here via discard, chant, creature hate maindeck and more discard.


Against control you hit their removal like Swords.
I like the plan with path/mage in the SB, but i always argued with myself. We have Sprites and Kira for it. What does the mage, that Sprites and Kira don't do?


Against Loam, you name Loam... You have answers for DD and Assault already.
Against LoaM play Crypt or Faerie Macabre (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/66.html). Imo the mage is just to vulnerable to their maindeck plan.


I asked you how Mongoose magically showed up in your tips when you said it wasn't in the list, not if you could chump block it...
I was just thinking in general. We ( or at least i :cool: ) don't fear him like i would with other decks. And to be honest, i don't fear CB, too.

And we can argue about Vial for a long time with no real end. I personally don't think it fits here for numerous reasons :


Ponder solids the manabase, helps finding survival, get the sorcery for goyf, helps digging for answers and ensure card quality. Things that Vial does not.
When do you gamebreaking need the "Instant blockers". If an opponent faces a survival, a vial and open mana he knows whats coming and most likely has an answer in hand if he's attacking.
I'm not saying that its bad to play stuff in an opponents turn, but do we really need the eot goyf?
What i was trying to say was, that infact we only need 2 or 1 mana open during an opponents turn to react. Thats why we can easily play the goyf in our turn and survival/brainstorm/sword/spellsnare with the one mana left. No need to keep 3 mana open and vial him in.
Getting creatures in play through a cb is nice, but like i said before : We can do that without vial, too. RWM/Rafiq and so on.
Due to our relatively low creature count, we need an online survival to really feed the vial. Most likely you win with an online survival anyway. With or without vial.


And please don't take my arguments personal.

Jak
09-17-2009, 08:26 PM
YEEEESSSSSS ... Turn 18 is even better then the turn 1 vial *irony* :tongue:

Okay, so then running it as a 4 of is what we agree on? That is, if you decide to run the card at all. 4 or 0 is what it should be at.


And thats why i throw the 3 Sprite / 2 Clique or 4 Sprite / 0 Clique split into the discussion. I never said, that you said to cut the cliques :tongue:

Well, basically I don't think you can cut Cliques. I would rather you cut the Sprites before the Cliques.


I actually played and lost that hand. He was on the play with land go. I played fetch, he stifled. He played land go, i played dual and vial. He played land go. I put a counter on my vial and passed. I draw-go, i vialed in hierarch, had no play and lost to a EE @ one followed with a wasteland one turn later.

So he drew awesome and you drew nothing in three turns. Shit happens man, it doesn't mean you need to change anything. More testing is needed.

And why would you Vial in a Hierarch with an EE in play? Or did he play the EE turn 4 after you didn't draw anything again? Seriously, the deck just bummed out in that situation.


I know that landstill doesn't play dreams. But you mentioned that Genesis will help in the LoaM MU and i don't think it does. Facing recurring wasteland, EE and you need at least 5 mana sources to efficiently recure cump blocker for their crushers. Maybe i'm playing against the wrong LoaM decks, but i'm happy to perm. get 3 lands in play in this matchup. And in most of my games against loam i never exceeded 3 lands.

I never said Genesis was good against Loam... I posted my boarding startegy against Loam just a bit ago and Genesis is not being brought in.


And landstill runs only EE here.

No Wrath of God? No Disk? I would still bring in Genesis here since it means recurring Mongoose.



In my experience it is, but that might differ from the combo's played at your tournaments. They get rid of it here via discard, chant, creature hate maindeck and more discard.

Still, it is an obstacle that they have to work through which makes them expend resources, which means you are slowing them down, which gives you the best possibility to win.



I like the plan with path/mage in the SB, but i always argued with myself. We have Sprites and Kira for it. What does the mage, that Sprites and Kira don't do?

When I bring in Mage to name Swords against Landstill, I would not be bringing in Paths... Mage is more versatile than Kira since it can be brought in to a variety of MUs.


Against LoaM play Crypt or Faerie Macabre (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/66.html). Imo the mage is just to vulnerable to their maindeck plan.

If you land Mage naming Loam and hold one counter for their DD, you win. I really don't know what recent Loam lists are looking like since they are so varied. Against the one you played, the only thing that would stop that plan from working are 1 Pulse and 2 EE.


I was just thinking in general. We ( or at least i :cool: ) don't fear him like i would with other decks. And to be honest, i don't fear CB, too.

Okay, nvm. You don't understand what I was asking.


And we can argue about Vial for a long time with no real end. I personally don't think it fits here for numerous reasons :


Ponder solids the manabase, helps finding survival, get the sorcery for goyf, helps digging for answers and ensure card quality. Things that Vial does not.
When do you gamebreaking need the "Instant blockers". If an opponent faces a survival, a vial and open mana he knows whats coming and most likely has an answer in hand if he's attacking.
I'm not saying that its bad to play stuff in an opponents turn, but do we really need the eot goyf?
What i was trying to say was, that infact we only need 2 or 1 mana open during an opponents turn to react. Thats why we can easily play the goyf in our turn and survival/brainstorm/sword/spellsnare with the one mana left. No need to keep 3 mana open and vial him in.
Getting creatures in play through a cb is nice, but like i said before : We can do that without vial, too. RWM/Rafiq and so on.
Due to our relatively low creature count, we need an online survival to really feed the vial. Most likely you win with an online survival anyway. With or without vial.


I don't play Vial, for the record (which I have said numerous times before). All I was saying is that it is either a 4 of or a none of and that the people playing it have strong reasons to play it.


And please don't take my arguments personal.

Oh, I definitely do not. I like having discussions about the deck like this.

XiaN
09-18-2009, 07:16 AM
Okay, so then running it as a 4 of is what we agree on? That is, if you decide to run the card at all. 4 or 0 is what it should be at.
I would consider running only 3 if you have 7 cantrips.


and that the people playing it have strong reasons to play it.
What reasons would they have to run it?


So he drew awesome and you drew nothing in three turns. Shit happens man, it doesn't mean you need to change anything. More testing is needed.

And why would you Vial in a Hierarch with an EE in play? Or did he play the EE turn 4 after you didn't draw anything again? Seriously, the deck just bummed out in that situation.
No, he just drew normal. 1 Stifle, 1 Wasteland and 1 EE is no god draw :tongue:
And he played the EE after i vialed in the hierarch. Think i drew RWM, Clique and Rafiq on my turns.


When I bring in Mage to name Swords against Landstill, I would not be bringing in Paths... Mage is more versatile than Kira since it can be brought in to a variety of MUs.
I disagree here. Kira does the same as the mage simply better if you face spot removal.


If you land Mage naming Loam and hold one counter for their DD, you win. I really don't know what recent Loam lists are looking like since they are so varied. Against the one you played, the only thing that would stop that plan from working are 1 Pulse and 2 EE.
And S.Assault. But maybe you're right, shutting down loam should slow them down enought to develop a good board position against them. However the game is far away from being over. They can get rid of the mage with many maindeck weapons.


Okay, nvm. You don't understand what I was asking.
Missed that one again :laugh: ? Lets try it once more, what was your question again :cool:


Well, basically I don't think you can cut Cliques. I would rather you cut the Sprites before the Cliques.
Maybe in an aggro heavy meta? They might be to slow against a lot of Burn, Zoo and Goblins?

And one question i'm always asking myself : If you have a sprite in hand and your opponent plays SDT. Do you counter this one? I normally don't, but SDT seems worth it. I don't know. Do you / would you counter SDT this way?

Black Mass
09-18-2009, 07:40 AM
Yes, no questions, yes. If you fear removal, they'll find other with the top if you let it in to play. they can assemble the counterbalance soft lock an others. Therefore: if I'd ever get to heve the the chance to counter a top with a sprite, I'd defenitly do it.

Jak
09-20-2009, 12:24 AM
I would consider running only 3 if you have 7 cantrips.

What's your reasoning? As I have said, Vial is best early, no cantripping into it on turn 3.


What reasons would they have to run it?

Uncounterable threats
Instant speed threats
Acceleration
More mana for Survival

There are reasons to run it and trying to ignore them by saying flash is the same thing or playing cards with a higher cmc makes them uncounterable is bad reasoning. I don't run it because it just sucks to draw it late and to maximize when you want to see it, running 4 is the answer.


No, he just drew normal. 1 Stifle, 1 Wasteland and 1 EE is no god draw :tongue:
And he played the EE after i vialed in the hierarch. Think i drew RWM, Clique and Rafiq on my turns.

So how did you lose? If you still had a land and good cards in hand, what did he draw to make the game just end? I'm guessing Goyf, which means you saw no Swords, no second Land, no Vial, no Hierarch in 5 turns (Goyf being a 4/5). Sucks hard man.


I disagree here. Kira does the same as the mage simply better if you face spot removal.

Exactly, so why not run a card that does the same thing as Kira but can come in to help other MUs?


And S.Assault. But maybe you're right, shutting down loam should slow them down enought to develop a good board position against them. However the game is far away from being over. They can get rid of the mage with many maindeck weapons.

That's why Mage is great. It slows them down while you can still do your stuff and beat for two. I left out Assault because I've never seen it come down early.



Missed that one again :laugh: ? Lets try it once more, what was your question again :cool:

Okay, again, how did Mongoose get in the list? I thought you tested versus Counterbalance Threshold which Mongoose isn't present in. Did you just randomly throw in advice for Tempo Thresh or something?


Maybe in an aggro heavy meta? They might be to slow against a lot of Burn, Zoo and Goblins?

I honestly don't think you should. Playing it as a surprise blocker, taking the Price of Progress/Fireblast/Siege Gang Commander, and then getting rid of their Nacatl/Warchief/Chieftan is still pretty awesome.


And one question i'm always asking myself : If you have a sprite in hand and your opponent plays SDT. Do you counter this one? I normally don't, but SDT seems worth it. I don't know. Do you / would you counter SDT this way?

YES. Sure it can be used as protection, but countering things like SDT are what you dream of.

XiaN
09-20-2009, 06:28 AM
So i went to a local PTGSTW qualifier with 24 player and i took the list i posted above.

1 [P3] Plains (3)
1 [P3] Forest (2)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [A] Tropical Island
1 [A] Tundra
3 [A] Savannah

// Creatures
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
2 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
1 [ALA] Rafiq of the Many
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [JU] Wonder

// Spells
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
3 [LRW] Ponder
3 [DIS] Spell Snare

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Path to Exile
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 1 Genesis
SB: 1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
SB: 1 Trygon Predator

Round 1 against Belcher

I kept a hand of Force, Cantrips and RWM. At this point i didn't know i was playing against Belcher.

Game 1

He wins the roll and starts with Land Grant. My face rapidly becomes -.-#. So he fills his manapool and i forced this belcher. I played an exalted RWM and beat him down to 6 while digging for another Counter, Clique or a faster clock. Found non of them and lost to another belcher.

I boarded -2 RWM -4 Swords -1 Ponder +2 Grip +3 Teeg +1 MMage

Game 2

I forced a first turn belcher again, but only played a teeg as thread. He played the XSwarm and refilled his hand while i had no real dmg on the board. After rounds of drawing nothing but land i got a survival online and finally started to throw out threads and getting sprites to my hand. ( I'm an idiot here. I should have get out the MMage naming Burning Wish to lock him out of the game ). So he attacked with the swarm, Wish into Pyroclasm, gets rid of my teeg and comboed with belcher. But he fizzeled in the combo and scooped, because my gofy would be leathel next turn. Puuhhh :laugh:

Game 3

Its a mirror of the 3. game. I forced, get survival and teeg and lost him to a pyroclasm, but he fizzled and scooped.

After the game we small talked and while presenting my sideboard plan he pointed out the MMage error. Lucky me :wink:

Round 2 against a homebrew GoofySlight with Skyshroud Elite, Berserk, Nacatle, Ape, Goofy and burn. ( This deck won the swiss rounds )

Game 1

I had a creature heavy hand with survival. He starts with Land, Lotus petal, Ape and Elite. Uh ok :cry:

After rounds of trading Sprites, Forces, Swords vs. Burn and lots of dudes we came down to the following situation.

Me at 1 life with a fresh RWM, an online survival and no cards in hand. Him at 7 life with no creatures on the board an no hand. I would win this ( Mana for Rafiq next turn ) if he don't draw direct damage. Of cause he did and i lost. Quick note : there where no more Sprites in the deck, so i had to take the RWM.

I boarded in Path and RWM vs. Pridemage and Spellsnare.

Game 2

Again we traded Paths/Swords vs. his dudes and i overwelm him with an active survival and 2 RWM in play.

Game 3

I had to muligan an zero land hand and keeped a 4 land 2 cantrip hand.

He had the nuts and after brainstormed 2 Path and 1 Sword he still had 4 creatures on the board. Not much i can do there.

Round 3 vs. Moxeruption ( Which won the tournament and one of the two slots to Rome )

Game 1

We got deckchecked and i got an gameloss for having 3 Spellsnare proxies ( on the back of 10 mana do nothing spells ) in my deck box.

Game 2

The game went on in my favor, but it comes down to the following :

I had 3 lands in play ( one untapped ), a survival in play and only one gofy in my hand ( with 2 more lands ). He had 3 lands open and 3-4 cards in hand. Everything in my head screamd "DON'T DO IT!. You take no advantage, survivaling for Squee here" ... and of cause i didn't hear to my head and survivaled for Squee. He tapped 3 mana and V.Clique in my face. I drew nothing but more lands the following turns and he beat me down with the clique.

Its ok to loose because of such a dumb play.

Round 4 Dredge

Game 1

He dredged 4 bridges into his grave, i took them out with a Qasali on my Survival and lost to Ichorid beatdown.

I boarded in Teeg and MM. Don't remember what i took out, i think RWM and something like Spellsnare.

Game 2

I beat him down to 6 and he creates Zombie token. But i can not find a creature to survival wonder, allowing me to fly over them for the win with one ponder ( shuffle ) and one brainstorm.

Round 5 Dredge again

I got beaten down, with no relevant action on my side. Sprited his break throughts, sworded the discard outlets and played Teeg. Its not enough :S

So i ended up 1-4 with a meta full of combo ( at least 8 belcher/ANT + 2-3 dredge decks on 24 players ). I want the new ClearGraveyard and ComboYouSuck traps in my sb :laugh:


Uncounterable threats
Instant speed threats
Acceleration
More mana for Survival

Uncounterable ... yes def. a good reason.
Instant speed threads ... in which mu is this relevant? Nice to have, but not needed imo.
Acceleration ... but don't we have enough? 4 Noble fit this role perfectly.
More mana for survival ... like i said before : You win anyway with survival in play. No need for the vial here.


There are reasons to run it and trying to ignore them by saying flash is the same thing or playing cards with a higher cmc makes them uncounterable is bad reasoning. I don't run it because it just sucks to draw it late and to maximize when you want to see it, running 4 is the answer.
I've posted numerous other reasons why not to play it in this deck. And being able to play around CB without it was one of the weakest points. You may consider rereading the others as well.


So how did you lose? If you still had a land and good cards in hand, what did he draw to make the game just end? I'm guessing Goyf, which means you saw no Swords, no second Land, no Vial, no Hierarch in 5 turns (Goyf being a 4/5). Sucks hard man.
No, i had no permanent in play after the EE. I had 1 Trop, 1 Vial, 1 Hierarch. He EE's for one and wasted away the Trop. I lost to 2 Gofys with me sitting on swords with no land :cool:


Exactly, so why not run a card that does the same thing as Kira but can come in to help other MUs?
Because against spot removal, kira does way, way more then the mage.

Most likely you'll play the mage on Swords most times you'll use him against spot removal. So virtually you trade 5 ( the mage and your own playset ) of your cards vs. 4 of his.

Kira on the other hand reads : "Creatures you control gain protection from Threads of Disloyality, Swords, Path, Ghastly Demise, Smother, Shackles, Lightning Bolt, the anti blue blasts, Vindicate, Maelstrom Pulse ..." and you can still use your own swords. Of cause, they can get rid of her with multiple copies of their removal, but you have Sprites, Force and Spell snare in this case :wink:


Okay, again, how did Mongoose get in the list? I thought you tested versus Counterbalance Threshold which Mongoose isn't present in. Did you just randomly throw in advice for Tempo Thresh or something?
This note about the Mongoose wasn't related to the matches against Thresh before. I just randomly throw that in :laugh:

Jak
09-20-2009, 06:44 AM
Uncounterable ... yes def. a good reason.
Instant speed threads ... in which mu is this relevant? Nice to have, but not needed imo.
Acceleration ... but don't we have enough? 4 Noble fit this role perfectly.
More mana for survival ... like i said before : You win anyway with survival in play. No need for the vial here.


Me at 1 life with a fresh RWM, an online survival and no cards in hand. Him at 7 life with no creatures on the board an no hand. I would win this ( Mana for Rafiq next turn ) if he don't draw direct damage. Of cause he did and i lost. Quick note : there where no more Sprites in the deck, so i had to take the RWM.


I had 3 lands in play ( one untapped ), a survival in play and only one gofy in my hand ( with 2 more lands ). He had 3 lands open and 3-4 cards in hand. Everything in my head screamd "DON'T DO IT!. You take no advantage, survivaling for Squee here" ... and of cause i didn't hear to my head and survivaled for Squee. He tapped 3 mana and V.Clique in my face. I drew nothing but more lands the following turns and he beat me down with the clique.

Not always. Sure, Vial might not have helped in these situations but assuming you will win because you have Survival in play is a bad mentality.


I've posted numerous other reasons why not to play it in this deck. And being able to play around CB without it was one of the weakest points. You may consider rereading the others as well.

Dude, stop arguing against Vial! I am with you in not running it! There is no need for us to discuss it anymore.


No, i had no permanent in play after the EE. I had 1 Trop, 1 Vial, 1 Hierarch. He EE's for one and wasted away the Trop. I lost to 2 Gofys with me sitting on swords with no land :cool:

I recall you saying you had 2 lands in hand. Still, a one time thing doesn't mean a whole lot.


Because against spot removal, kira does way, way more then the mage.

Most likely you'll play the mage on Swords most times you'll use him against spot removal. So virtually you trade 5 ( the mage and your own playset ) of your cards vs. 4 of his.

Kira on the other hand reads : "Creatures you control gain protection from Threads of Disloyality, Swords, Path, Ghastly Demise, Smother, Shackles, Lightning Bolt, the anti blue blasts, Vindicate, Maelstrom Pulse ..." and you can still use your own swords. Of cause, they can get rid of her with multiple copies of their removal, but you have Sprites, Force and Spell snare in this case :wink:

Most of the time when I bring Mage in to name Swords, I board mine out. You wanna know why? Because it is against control decks. I don't bring Mage in against something like Threshold.

What you said about Kira is true. I might try one in the board.

Sucks about the tournament.

HPB_Eggo
09-20-2009, 07:17 AM
Instant speed threads ... in which mu is this relevant? Nice to have, but not needed imo.

This is actually quite relevant. Being able to hold back using Survival until the end of your opponents turn has a lot of advantages. You get to see what they play, so you can tutor for what you actually need, rather than what you thought you needed. You can hold back tutoring so you can grab a Sprite to protect your guys if you have to, but you can still vial in that 'goyf even though you waited. You can wait to tutor up a guy to pitch to FoW, but still play out a threat with vial if you don't have to.

While this aspect of vial doesn't absolutely dominate any matchups, it makes the deck generally more flexible, especially with Survival out. I may be wrong, but I'm fairly sure flexible is better, and doing things at the end of your opponents turn is almost always an improvement over doing things during your own turn.

XiaN
09-20-2009, 07:18 AM
Not always. Sure, Vial might not have helped in these situations but assuming you will win because you have Survival in play is a bad mentality.
Yes, sure. Never say "always" or "never", but most time it lands and sticks its a very, very big game advantage. But thats the reason we play it, so no reason to mention it again :laugh:


Dude, stop arguing against Vial! I am with you in not running it! There is no need for us to discuss it anymore.
I hoped we could come up with a new section in the primer featuring when to play Vial and when not.


I recall you saying you had 2 lands in hand. Still, a one time thing doesn't mean a whole lot.
The first one was stifled away on my first turn. And sure this does not happen very often, but mana denial is still a very strong strategy against this deck.


Sucks about the tournament.
The result was bad sure, but i learned some new plays with the deck so it's not that bad. Like a friend of mine said afterwards : "It was simply the wrong deck for that meta".

A thing to mention : A friend runs much better results very tournament we both attend with this (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=28734) bant list. In this tournament he made it into the top8, but then lost to a homebrew UGw Grindstone in the quarter finals.

The question is .. why :really: And i wished for 1-2 EE in my MD quite often lately.

And how is the Goose test going?

Jak
09-20-2009, 01:52 PM
Yes, sure. Never say "always" or "never", but most time it lands and sticks its a very, very big game advantage. But thats the reason we play it, so no reason to mention it again :laugh:

Okay, good.


I hoped we could come up with a new section in the primer featuring when to play Vial and when not.


I'll probably be updating the primer a little tonight so I could add more about Vial since it is the most talked about/disputed card.


The first one was stifled away on my first turn. And sure this does not happen very often, but mana denial is still a very strong strategy against this deck.

Land destruction like that will knock any deck off of its feet and then get trampled by Goyfs the exact way you did. Do not think this happens often with the deck since most people run about four or more basics. Misty Rainforest will also help a ton at stabilizing under a Wasteland assault.


The result was bad sure, but i learned some new plays with the deck so it's not that bad. Like a friend of mine said afterwards : "It was simply the wrong deck for that meta".

Yeah, two Ichorid is tough, but the deck still has a shot against anything really. However, the deck check error and the few play mistakes do hurt. I am going to a tournament today and I think Ichorid will be there. I hear there have been two people playing it lately so in go Crypts :).


A thing to mention : A friend runs much better results very tournament we both attend with this (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=28734) bant list. In this tournament he made it into the top8, but then lost to a homebrew UGw Grindstone in the quarter finals.

Not the same deck at all. Most people communicating in this thread have had great results with Bant Survival.



The question is .. why :really: And i wished for 1-2 EE in my MD quite often lately.

Why what? EE is pretty slow and what do you need to hit?


And how is the Goose test going?

I am pretty happy running 2-3 in the deck. I'll keep going with them today because the last time I played the deck, they were amazing.

Jak
09-20-2009, 10:02 PM
Went 3-1 today beating TES, Zoo, and Wg Armageddon Stax (the one with Knight of the Reliquary). Lost to Eventide block BW. Sucks. He ran 4 Sqords, 4 Path, 4 O Ring, and 4 Unmake or something. Then he ran creatures like Nightsky Mimic, Restless Apparition, and Nip Gwyllion. To make those tic, he ran Edge of Divinity. Oh and Beckon Apparition. The games were me not drawing removal at all and him removing all my creatures. Meh, at least I beat the decks that are tiered in Legacy.

Playing today does make me want Sower again since facing Knight of the Reliquary or a 7/7 flier sucks. I want tutorable removal.

Waikiki
09-21-2009, 01:35 AM
you can give the coatl a try (1UG 1/1 flying deathtouch)

Jak
09-21-2009, 02:14 AM
you can give the coatl a try (1UG 1/1 flying deathtouch)

Yeah, I don't know what I want to do with it. That seems to be better than Sower since it is hard to protect her at times. I'll try to squeeze one in the next time I play.

Edit-

Maybe this???

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
3 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

4 Brainstorm
4 Survival
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Eternal Witness
1 Trygon Predator
1 Winged Coatl
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Squee
1 Wonder

I don't know how much I like it. I want to add a couple Mongeese. Ponders also could do some good.

SB
4 Path to Exile
3 Spell Snare
3 Krosan Grip
3 Gaddock Teeg
1 Genesis
1 Rhox War Monk

I really want to add 3 Crypts but I also really want 3 Teegs. Mostly depends on what I see in my meta that day I guess.

losada
09-21-2009, 05:20 AM
Went 3-3 yesterday beating MonoU Control, TES and CounterTop, and losing against Gobblins, CounterTop and Enchantress. Against gobblins 2 mulligan, to 5 and 6 cards. I want more swords, maybe I include 3 path to exile. Countertop made me a Top turn 1 and CB turn2 in both games, with fow in hand, and i dont see vial. Enchantress was a very difficult mu, with the green/white enchantment who gives shroud to the rest of enchantments.

Black Mass
09-21-2009, 06:44 AM
I went 4-3 yesterday.
Won't go into details with matchup because I didn't take notes.
Lost against merfolk, didn't draw any of my removal pre and postboard, that sucked like hell. I tested against it and had a perfect score. So first match was lost.
Second against zoo. Drew shit in 3 games but in the 2nd he got stuck on 1 land, that helped. This should have been won, the MU is not that bad.
Third against Ubg landstill. Survival got active, should say enough.
Fourth against B/R Goblins: Crushed it completely. When they have a slow hand, you can control them. I ended game 2 with no lands, but 3 hierarchs and a active survival. RWM is golden here indeed.
Fifth against R/G aggro: Weird build, no problems.
Sixth against Ichorid: first I lost because of a god hand from him. In the following 2 games I had my Tormod's crypt and a force in my openings hand. That way I could controll him.
Seventh and last match vs UW Countertop/Landstill: First one I win on too much beats for him to control. Then I probably make some sideboard choises that were bad for me. Prolly should have gone more aggro, but he had me in a wastelock in the first so I was a little afraid to overextend with my mana. He just had answers to everything I played in the 2 following games, never had a real chance.

The meta was swarming with Merfolk and Zoo, for Ghent, the next tournament on my list I'll probbaly make some changes.

I played a alternate list than the one I posted, but don't have much time right now. So I'll try to post later.

Waikiki
09-21-2009, 11:03 AM
Yeah, I don't know what I want to do with it. That
Edit-

Maybe this???

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
3 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

4 Brainstorm
4 Survival
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Eternal Witness
1 Trygon Predator
1 Winged Coatl
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Squee
1 Wonder

I don't know how much I like it. I want to add a couple Mongeese. Ponders also could do some good.

SB
4 Path to Exile
3 Spell Snare
3 Krosan Grip
3 Gaddock Teeg
1 Genesis
1 Rhox War Monk

I really want to add 3 Crypts but I also really want 3 Teegs. Mostly depends on what I see in my meta that day I guess.

For the sb I think 3 war monk are sufficient between md and sb.
4 path maybe is overkill? 2 grips are sufficient if you add ponder main deck.

For the MD id only play clique if you expect a controll meta which would lead to less rhox war monks maindeck. I also think witness is not needed. and 3 sprites should be sufficient since you wont use them T1/2/3. those could be replaced with ponders/goose or whatever suits you.

Jak
09-21-2009, 11:34 AM
For the sb I think 3 war monk are sufficient between md and sb.
4 path maybe is overkill? 2 grips are sufficient if you add ponder main deck.

For the MD id only play clique if you expect a controll meta which would lead to less rhox war monks maindeck. I also think witness is not needed. and 3 sprites should be sufficient since you wont use them T1/2/3. those could be replaced with ponders/goose or whatever suits you.

My meta is so aggro right now. I face Zoo and Goblins every week.

I'll think about Witness for now and focus on it when I test. How much I survivaled for it, how much it mattered, etc, but I always love it because it is just such a powerhouse.

I'll cut Sprites back and maybe a land for 2 Ponder... or two Goose. Probably the two Ponder though since I am seeing less control.

Black Mass
09-21-2009, 04:42 PM
I'm thinking about adding 1-2 quirion rangers to the deck. I got screwed against goblins, landstill and the fact that merfolk islandwalk couple of times yesterday, so protecting my manabase wouldn't be all that bad and making extra mana off Hierarch and not missing landdrops seems cool too.

Jak
09-21-2009, 11:11 PM
I'm thinking about adding 1-2 quirion rangers to the deck. I got screwed against goblins, landstill and the fact that merfolk islandwalk couple of times yesterday, so protecting my manabase wouldn't be all that bad and making extra mana off Hierarch and not missing landdrops seems cool too.

A better mana base would probably serve you better. It does give a creature Vigilance, which is neat, but the deck is so tight. What do you plan to cut? Can you post your list?

Black Mass
09-22-2009, 01:46 AM
Don't know what to cut yet. I guess it'll be toolbox creatures, probably Kira will get the kick and the second one I don't know.

As fo the more stable manabase: I play 18 lands at the monent and I played 7 cantrips (not playing vial like in my last list), which should be enough to find land. It's not like I was screwed, but ranger can serve as extra protection without having to play 2 or more extra basics and returning your island to your hand so you can block Merfolk. I play 2 basics at the moment and it seemed enough, but extra protection is never bad I guess.

Jokemon
09-22-2009, 08:56 AM
Hey! Another small success for this deck :)
I played this list in a small tournament that i arranged (only 11 peeps but some quality players where participating), finished 2nd in the swiss but got beaten by Team America in the semi-final (Extirpate on Swords was a bitch, going to put in 2 Path in the board I think)

CREATURES (21)
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Spellstutter Sprite
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Gilded Drake
1 Wonder
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Trygon Predator

ENCHANTMENTS (4)
4 Survival of the Fittest

SORCERIES (2)
2 Portent

INSTANTS (14)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare

LANDS (19)
3 Flooded Strand
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
3 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Tundra

SIDEBOARD
3 Krosan Grip
1 Genesis
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Meddling Mage
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Pithing Needle

Portent was a small test, this card has potential but in a different deck so i'm going to stick with Ponder. I liked having Venser in the deck, a tutor able answer to everything (not an all that bad draw either). And for Gilded Drake, he was MVP in the TA match (where 2 of them in the meta). Spell Snare is really nice but i didn't draw a single one during the whole tourney :S

The meta was:
2 TA
2 Landstill
1 Stax
1 Reanimate
1 Chains-Anvil lock homebrew called Denied
1 Merfolks
1 Faeries
1 Random Sliver.deck (very sub-optimal build)

XiaN
09-22-2009, 05:49 PM
I want tutorable removal.
There (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/28.html) you go.


Why what? EE is pretty slow and what do you need to hit?
Most likely token generators ( belcher, ichorid, enchantress ), but Zoo ( all these 1 drops ) as well.


Lost to Eventide block BW. Sucks. He ran 4 Sqords, 4 Path, 4 O Ring, and 4 Unmake or something.
:laugh: That's exactly the BW-"I hate your deck" i mentioned above. This is where CB shines.


Second against zoo. Drew shit in 3 games but in the 2nd he got stuck on 1 land, that helped. This should have been won, the MU is not that bad.
Def. not. This MU is really even and depends a lot on the pilot and draw/hands. Against a good Zoo player the MU is 50:50 ... at best :wink:


I'm thinking about adding 1-2 quirion rangers to the deck. I got screwed against goblins, landstill and the fact that merfolk islandwalk couple of times yesterday, so protecting my manabase wouldn't be all that bad and making extra mana off Hierarch and not missing landdrops seems cool too.
This happens for me a lot, when the deck is insufficient shuffled. Try to reshuffle your deck from scratch. 18 lands fit very well ... at least for me.


I'll think about Witness for now and focus on it when I test. How much I survivaled for it, how much it mattered, etc, but I always love it because it is just such a powerhouse.
When was EWitness more than a "Skip your turn:return a card from your graveyard to your hand" for you? ( in the first 10 turns, when you don't have 10+ mana on the board )

I thought for some time about the 2 QPM main. I'm considering to change it to 1 QPM and 1 Mangara. But again, Mangara is such a toolbox creature :confused:. Slow, but good and a bad topdeck. And whats up with the Predator in all you lists? Isn't he simply to slow?

And because Zendikar is new : What can be considered as choice for our deck? Ok, the UG Fetchie, but what else? I'm thinking about the "ClearGraveyard" and of cause the "FUCombo" trap. Is the ClearGraveyard better then the Crypt? Imo it is, simply because the enemy don't know you have a option to clear his graveyard. On the other hand some times you got beaten down by ichorids and they are not muling sth. in their grave.

*Confused*

Jak
09-22-2009, 06:21 PM
There (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/28.html) you go.

Mangara is terrible. Double white, only a 1 for 1 trade, and it is slow. I would rather run Intrepid Hero.


:laugh: That's exactly the BW-"I hate your deck" i mentioned above. This is where CB shines.

I was doing fine, but not drawing removal for his Aura'd up dude sucked. It should have been an easy win.


When was EWitness more than a "Skip your turn:return a card from your graveyard to your hand" for you? ( in the first 10 turns, when you don't have 10+ mana on the board )

What? I am paying 3 mana to get back a needed card and a body that can chump or go offensive. How is that anything like giving the opponent a Time Walk? What you just said didn't make any sense.


I thought for some time about the 2 QPM main. I'm considering to change it to 1 QPM and 1 Mangara. But again, Mangara is such a toolbox creature :confused:. Slow, but good and a bad topdeck. And whats up with the Predator in all you lists? Isn't he simply to slow?

Predator is to get around CB while being good against Stax. It is also blue. Mangara is weak when you can't do tricks with it.

Misplayer
09-24-2009, 08:33 AM
I played an Aether Vial build to a 3-1 finish at a local event last night. I lost to RGW Zoo, and beat Canadian Thresh, Domain Zoo and UGbr CounterTop. I have never played any Survival list before so I made some dumb play mistakes that the deck bailed out.

Thoughts: Vial was very solid all night. Survival came online about half of my games. Witness was very very good (props to J.V. for advising me to throw it in at the last second). Rafiq was the stone-cold nuts and won me at least 1/3 of my games. I got mana flooded 3 times with only 18 lands. I essentially lost to Jitte both games 2 and 3 against RGW Zoo. Almost all my games were VERY close.

When sideboarding against Zoo-style aggro, I usually brought in RWM #4 and 3 Path to Exile subbing out 1 V. Clique and some combination of Force of Wills and Aether Vials. Boarding out FoW felt wrong but I figured I wanted either removal or men all game. What's difficult is that nearly all of their creatures outclass ours, especially when you're on defense. I couldn't drop an early Goyf for fear of it getting burned down. Creatures like Spellstutter Sprite and Qasali Pridemage are really weak against their threats. By the time I could get RWM online it would usually get Fireblasted or Path'd. What is a good boarding strategy for this matchup?

For reference, my maindeck creature base was:
4 Goyf
4 Hierarch
3 RWM
3 Spellstutter
2 Pridemage
1 Gilded Drake
1 Vendillion Clique
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Wonder

And my SB looked like this:
3 Krosan Grip
3 Path to Exile
2 Meddling Mage
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 V. Clique
1 Trygon Predator
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Genesis

losada
09-24-2009, 11:40 AM
My personal opinion:

Out: Vendilion, spellstutter (maybe vial)

In: path to exile, RWM. If you know he's palying Jittes or Choke, a trygon predator too.

Black Mass
09-24-2009, 01:15 PM
This happens for me a lot, when the deck is insufficient shuffled. Try to reshuffle your deck from scratch. 18 lands fit very well ... at least for me.

I think I must have misexpressed myself. I am quite happy with the 18 lands in the deck (at least with 7 cantrips), that was not the problem. The problem were the attacks on my manabase by decks playing wasteland. That was a problem, Quirion ranger can protect your color AND hand you extra mana from Hierarch. That is why I sugested him. In the Merfolk matchup, you can attack with goyf and on their turn untap goyf by returning a Trop to your hand, can pose the opposing fishes for some problems.

Waikiki
09-26-2009, 07:01 AM
lately clique hasn't been all that impressive for me even vs controll. How do you guys think about that?

Also mother of runes was cute but not that impressive.

The list:

// Lands
1 [P3] Plains (3)
1 [P3] Forest (2)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills / Will become misty rainforest
4 [A] Tropical Island
1 [A] Tundra
3 [A] Savannah / will remove 1 and add a basic island

// Creatures
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [JU] Wonder
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [ALA] Rafiq of the Many
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
2 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
3 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
3 [UL] Mother of Runes / spell snare / nimble mongoose / suggestions

// Spells
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
3 [LRW] Ponder
1 [CFX] Path to Exile / Sower / kira / suggestions

// Sideboard // Totally meta dependant.
SB: 1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
SB: 2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

Jokemon
09-26-2009, 09:49 AM
A card i suggest you try out is Venser, sure he cost 2UU but he handles basicly anything. When i took out my Man-o'-war from the deck i missed it, then i tohught of testing venser and so far he has done his job.

He's worth a try at least.

Black Mass
09-26-2009, 02:34 PM
@Waikiki: why no witness, I'm allways happy to see her.

I'd run or 3 mongeese in your open slots or 1 quirion ranger (is rather great) 1 sower/gilded drake and a witness.

Secondly: why run a basic plains? I'd agree if you would run a basic island once the rainforest become legal, but the main problem with them is that you are cutting green sources that provide you your first turn hierarch, mongoose, ...
Having played the "normal" survival for a while made me realise that the deck needs its green sources and cutting 3 spaces (island, plains, tundra) is not really great with only 18 lands. Sure we play 8 fetch, but even then I do not allways get my mana straight to fuel my survival, could be just me though, I'm not really having a lucky streak lately.

losada
09-26-2009, 05:53 PM
Today I've finished 4-0-1, and a Top 2 split with the list I posted 2 o 3 pages before (we were 28 people in the tournament). I've won Canadian Threshold (spellstutter is very good in this MU), team america (fetch basics like in canadian), a kind of MonoU (with a little white and black splash for EE, swords, and back to basics and perish in side) and a 4c Landstill (basically, vials and cliques in first game, and meddlings with cliques in second). I've make an intentionally draw with a friend, when both were 3-0.

In th top8, I've won a EVA green 2-0 (simply the squee+survival recursion), a UGR Countertop. IN the final, we decided to share the prize, causa he was a friend of mine, and I was hurry (the girlfriend, you know...).

XiaN
09-26-2009, 06:43 PM
Having played the "normal" survival for a while made me realise that the deck needs its green sources and cutting 3 spaces (island, plains, tundra) is not really great with only 18 lands.
Sure thing, but i'm so happy to run 1 of each basic every time the first wasteland hits me. The ability to win against AntiBasic hate is one of the key qualities of a competitive deck imo.


// Lands
1 [P3] Plains (3)
1 [P3] Forest (2)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills / Will become misty rainforest
4 [A] Tropical Island
1 [A] Tundra
3 [A] Savannah / will remove 1 and add a basic island

// Creatures
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [JU] Wonder
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [ALA] Rafiq of the Many
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
2 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
3 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
3 [UL] Mother of Runes / spell snare / nimble mongoose / suggestions

// Spells
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
3 [LRW] Ponder
1 [CFX] Path to Exile / Sower / kira / suggestions

I think the open slots you have there are the "metagame" slots. I would consider this list -Predator ( moving him to the SB ) as the core shell of this archetype ( as of today ).

Maybe we should try something like that

-1 Predator
-1 Ponder
+1 RWM
+1 Rafiq
+2 Bant Charm
+2 Jitte

RWM is just our 4+x Gofy imo. Numerous times he has outraced an enemy's Gofy for me so far in the early/midgame and having 4 after boarding sounds solid in the aggro mu.

Rafiq is basicly 8/4 for 4 Mana. Sounds solid too and everyone of us can tell a RafiqMadeTheGame story :laugh: Maybe playing one more isn't that bad at all.

Bant Charm ... combines Spellsnare, PtE and the Predator into one card. But kind of expensive :rolleyes:

Jitte : Can't count the times i read in tournament reports, that people are simply loosing against a single jitte. Maybe we should play them. Has anyone tried so far?

And isn't the feary count a bit to low without Cliques? I was kind of happy that Sprite more often counters for at least 2.

And congratulations losada!

Waikiki
09-27-2009, 12:41 PM
Grats nice to see you having succes with the deck!


@black mass
I never felt the need searching for a witness.

Also the basic plains makes sure I can use my removal under moon effects effectively. Maybe I can replace it with an island but im not sure about that yet.

Currently im thinking about sticking with spell snare. Mongoose is strong aswell. I hoped zendikar would bring us some goodies but too bad it hasn't.

Jak
09-27-2009, 01:12 PM
Maybe we should try something like that

-1 Predator
-1 Ponder
+1 RWM
+1 Rafiq
+2 Bant Charm
+2 Jitte

RWM is just our 4+x Gofy imo. Numerous times he has outraced an enemy's Gofy for me so far in the early/midgame and having 4 after boarding sounds solid in the aggro mu.

Rafiq is basicly 8/4 for 4 Mana. Sounds solid too and everyone of us can tell a RafiqMadeTheGame story :laugh: Maybe playing one more isn't that bad at all.

Bant Charm ... combines Spellsnare, PtE and the Predator into one card. But kind of expensive :rolleyes:

Jitte : Can't count the times i read in tournament reports, that people are simply loosing against a single jitte. Maybe we should play them. Has anyone tried so far?

And isn't the feary count a bit to low without Cliques? I was kind of happy that Sprite more often counters for at least 2.

And congratulations losada!

Bant Charm is terrible and saying it is Spell Snare, Predator, and Path to Exile all in one is so wrong. It can't counter shit, it only hits artifacts, and the creature removal is the only relevant part of the card. Plus, its three mana.

I also hate when Predator is removed. Sure, it's slow, but it beats Counterbalance and Stax. Qasali isn't always reliable to land with CB on the table and against Stax, being able to wipe their board is important.

losada
09-29-2009, 11:38 AM
This weekend there is a big tournament here in Madrid (you can see it in http://www.elsantuario.es/foro/index.php/topic,4554.0.html). As all of you see, there are good prizes.

Well, yesterday I played against Loam (the GRW version, with knight of relicary) several games, and pre-sideboard I had no options. Relicary can find Tabernacle, Maze of Ith...and we have no defense against lands (Maybe I include 1 nimble mongoose).

I think it's going to be some Loams this weekend, and only with Meddling Mage in side ... I see necesary 3 path to exile in side too. What combination of cards do you think is the best in side against Loam?

Thank you!!!

Jak
09-29-2009, 11:56 AM
This weekend there is a big tournament here in Madrid (you can see it in http://www.elsantuario.es/foro/index.php/topic,4554.0.html). As all of you see, there are good prizes.

Well, yesterday I played against Loam (the GRW version, with knight of relicary) several games, and pre-sideboard I had no options. Relicary can find Tabernacle, Maze of Ith...and we have no defense against lands (Maybe I include 1 nimble mongoose).

I think it's going to be some Loams this weekend, and only with Meddling Mage in side ... I see necesary 3 path to exile in side too. What combination of cards do you think is the best in side against Loam?

Thank you!!!

Mage, Mongoose, Tormod's Crypt, Sower/Gilded Drake. Definitely a tough MU.

Waikiki
09-29-2009, 04:20 PM
dont forget spell snare which stops goyf/wish and DD.

Also wonder and creature steal is great vs the deck.

IsThisACatInAHat?
09-29-2009, 08:40 PM
@Waikiki
Have you thought about trying Lotus Cobra in the 3 open MD slots? I'm not a huge fan of the hype surrounding the card, but its relatively slow speed might be offset by Bant's early-game acceleration and survival might really appreciate the raw power of an early cobra. Bant plays a strong enough lategame that it might be worth a try.

losada
09-30-2009, 03:42 AM
I was thinking in a creature with protection from red, but I can't remember a good one that pass the cut..

Waikiki
09-30-2009, 04:45 AM
@Waikiki
Have you thought about trying Lotus Cobra in the 3 open MD slots? I'm not a huge fan of the hype surrounding the card, but its relatively slow speed might be offset by Bant's early-game acceleration and survival might really appreciate the raw power of an early cobra. Bant plays a strong enough lategame that it might be worth a try.

I have been thinking about the card but I haven't been able to test it yet. We only run 18 mana in the first place and im really curious wether this guy got any impact.

spider900
09-30-2009, 02:12 PM
Today I did some testing with Waikiki's list (I used 3 Spell Snare and 1 Tower in the open slots).

The things I found out:

1) I love this deck.
2) I was surprised how easily you are able to win without Survival.
3) The bunch of Exalted Creatures makes this deck incredibly strong since the smallest creature can be bigger than any of my opponent's goyfs. Often, I found myself searching for all Exalted creatures (each turn one, with Squee) and afterwards a big beater in form of Goyf or RWM.
4) Noble Hierarch is a house.
5) I miss one thing: A survival-tutorable creature removal.
6) Spellstutter Sprite wasn't as good as I thought it would be. Several times I had them in my hand, but my opponent played expensive spells or my opponent played cheap spells early in the game and I had no SS in my hand.

I tested vs. CB-Thresh (I win 2-1), Mono Black (with Nether Void and Tabernacle combined with a bunch of LD) (I win 2-1), Affinity (I win 2-0), Dreadstill (I win 2-1) and CB-Thresh again (2-0).

So you can see that this deck can win against nearly every deck(type), but also can lose against them. You have no real bad MU, but no autowins, too. Just like Thresh. But this deck is a lot of more fun and has more solutions, due to Survival-engine. AND it CAN beat Thresh :).

Have fun with the deck, I had and will have my fun :).

Cheers,
Spider

Misplayer
09-30-2009, 02:42 PM
3) Exalted is powerful when you're on offense, but I've found the deck to be difficult to win with once you get put on defense (such as against Merfolk/Zoo). This is one of the reasons I feel that you need 4 Path to Exile in the board.

5) I think Gilded Drake is solid in the removal slot. If you have Survival up, you have Wonder, so trading your 3/3 flyer for a flying Goyf is usually as good as removal. Eternal Witness to recur Swords is about your only other option.

hungryboi
09-30-2009, 02:57 PM
Thinking about testing additional Eternal Witness and aether vial. This means less blue sources to pitch to FoW. How many Blue sources minimal to run 4 FoW would you recommend?

Valdez
09-30-2009, 05:05 PM
15 Blue cards incl. FoW.

Jak
09-30-2009, 06:35 PM
3) Exalted is powerful when you're on offense, but I've found the deck to be difficult to win with once you get put on defense (such as against Merfolk/Zoo). This is one of the reasons I feel that you need 4 Path to Exile in the board.

Also, Rhox War Monk. The card is a house on defense against aggro.

@ Blue count.

I would try to keep it above 18. You could go lower to like 16 or something, but I don't recommend that at all.

hungryboi
09-30-2009, 07:29 PM
The one thing I noticed is that most decklists don't run anything to disrupt graveyard recursion. I'm now testing a pretty generic Bant Survival deck and was wondering how it does against recurring wasteland and ichorid?

johanessen
09-30-2009, 08:07 PM
5) I think Gilded Drake is solid in the removal slot. If you have Survival up, you have Wonder, so trading your 3/3 flyer for a flying Goyf is usually as good as removal. Eternal Witness to recur Swords is about your only other option.


If you like Glided Drake you should try to make space for Waterfront Bouncer, they like each other.

Jak
09-30-2009, 08:47 PM
The one thing I noticed is that most decklists don't run anything to disrupt graveyard recursion. I'm now testing a pretty generic Bant Survival deck and was wondering how it does against recurring wasteland and ichorid?

If you are seeing a lot of decks that use the GY, go ahead and play Crypt. I would but I don't feel the need for it.

I run between 4 and 5 basics plus Hierarchs so I do fine against Wasteland.

majikal
09-30-2009, 11:25 PM
The one thing I noticed is that most decklists don't run anything to disrupt graveyard recursion. I'm now testing a pretty generic Bant Survival deck and was wondering how it does against recurring wasteland and ichorid?
Side in Faerie Macabre?

Waikiki
10-01-2009, 03:24 AM
I dont have grave hate simply because my meta plays too few grave dependant decks to include.

@creature removal. Yeah ive been hoping zendikar would give us something

@gilded drake is good removal when u have survival and wonder out.... Hmm seems to me with flying goyfs you should allready be winning.

@path to exile sb. yeah this could be good vs all these aggro decks going around.

The faeries are still hard for me to remove cause they do so well in the tournaments I play. Most things they stopped so far: Nimble mongoose, cantrips, top!, dreadnought, stifle, zoo and sometimes even goyf.

spider900
10-01-2009, 03:50 AM
In the morning, I continued my testing. This time, I was facing MUC (with black+white splash for EE and StoP I guess). He also played Back to Basics and Stifle and so on, so he was running a lot of cards which I didn't wat to see. It was only the question how many he would draw of them and how many I could handle. I lost 1-2. How would you board in the MU?

Second testing was against a RG Bloodthirst Aggro, but which aggro deck likes 4 5/6 flying Goyfs?

Windux
10-01-2009, 04:15 AM
Lotus Cobra isn't good in this deck. It's like Quirion Ranger in bad.
Most time, you won't search him, because it's an hierarch which CAN make 2 mana instead of 1 (if you play and pop a fetchland), but it don't gives you exalted.
Due to the untap ability of Quirion Ranger and his awesome wasteland-security, he is just nuts and nobody plays the Ranger (except for me ;P ).
With Hierarch the Ranger makes the same as the Cobra even if you can't drop another land, which happens quite often.

majikal
10-04-2009, 12:10 AM
Lotus Cobra isn't good in this deck. It's like Quirion Ranger in bad.
Most time, you won't search him, because it's an hierarch which CAN make 2 mana instead of 1 (if you play and pop a fetchland), but it don't gives you exalted.
Due to the untap ability of Quirion Ranger and his awesome wasteland-security, he is just nuts and nobody plays the Ranger (except for me ;P ).
With Hierarch the Ranger makes the same as the Cobra even if you can't drop another land, which happens quite often.
Where the hell did this come from? Nobody was discussing Lotus Cobra.

Jak
10-04-2009, 03:55 AM
Probably talking about this post from a page back...


@Waikiki
Have you thought about trying Lotus Cobra in the 3 open MD slots? I'm not a huge fan of the hype surrounding the card, but its relatively slow speed might be offset by Bant's early-game acceleration and survival might really appreciate the raw power of an early cobra. Bant plays a strong enough lategame that it might be worth a try.

Still, Cobra is meh and competes with all the other two drops.

Waikiki
10-04-2009, 03:55 AM
Look again, someone suggested lotus cobra to me ;)

Windux
10-04-2009, 09:17 AM
My newest list looks like this:
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
4 [R] Tropical Island
2 [R] Savannah
1 [R] Tundra
1 [ALA] Forest (1)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [P2] Plains (1)
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest

// Creatures
4 [CNF] Noble Hierarch
1 [VI] Quirion Ranger
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [ALA] Rafiq of the Many
2 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
3 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite

// Creatures who sucks without SotF
1 [CNF] Progenitus
1 [10E] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [JU] Wonder

// Spells
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
3 [VI] Natural Order
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [LRW] Ponder
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [JU] Genesis
SB: 2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 4 [CNF] Path to Exile


I'm thinking about cutting 1 Survival, because 3 SotF and 3 Order are enough bomb-cards.

Drayd Arbor haven't been an issue. The basic Plains sucks way more :/

Jak
10-05-2009, 02:23 AM
Played some games today and the deck did great. I am pretty set on this base.

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

4 Survival of the FIttest
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Eternal Witness
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Wonder
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

I have three workable slots. I currently have 2 Mongoose and a Trygon Predator in them, but it could go to a combination of those, Ponder, or Spell Snare.

The MD has been working out great. I was able to play three games against Bardo's CounterTop and won them all by just playing a stream of threats. It has been holding up against aggro, Stax, The Rock, and some heavier control decks.

My sideboard has a set base of this.

4 Path to Exile
3 Krosan Grip
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Genesis
1 Rhox War Monk

The five remaining slots go to a combintation of Spell Snare, Meddling Mage, Tormod's Crypt, or Trygon Predator. 8 Swords, 4 War Monks, 4 Tarmogoyf, Counters, Survival, and other goods has been amazing against aggro. I am really trying to beat control with the board as well. I plan to play 2 Mages alongside the Teegs and Genesis.

Waikiki
10-05-2009, 04:47 AM
My newest list looks like this:
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
4 [R] Tropical Island
2 [R] Savannah
1 [R] Tundra
1 [ALA] Forest (1)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [P2] Plains (1)
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest

// Creatures
4 [CNF] Noble Hierarch
1 [VI] Quirion Ranger
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [ALA] Rafiq of the Many
2 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
3 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite

// Creatures who sucks without SotF
1 [CNF] Progenitus
1 [10E] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [JU] Wonder

// Spells
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
3 [VI] Natural Order
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [LRW] Ponder
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [JU] Genesis
SB: 2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 4 [CNF] Path to Exile


I'm thinking about cutting 1 Survival, because 3 SotF and 3 Order are enough bomb-cards.

Drayd Arbor haven't been an issue. The basic Plains sucks way more :/

Why did you choose you felt the need to add in the NO package?
Also with misty rainforest out. your not running an island, unneeded?

Black Mass
10-05-2009, 06:41 AM
I sucked yesterday. Wen 2-3-0 in Ghent.
Lost twice to Goblins due to sloppy draws and once to a enormously irritating dreadstill player.
I'll try and write a report in a little while.

Windux
10-05-2009, 12:15 PM
No island because: The Plains sucks very much if you draw it.
I feel the same for the Island, except that a Basic Island doesn't give solutions to me.

Plains+Forest = Pridemage, Swords, Path, Hierarch

Island give me = Sprite, RWM (if I have the 3 Basics or an hierarch, but then the island in unnecessary).

The 2nd Non-Green source along with Survival and NO just seems bad to me.

I think packing NO isn't that surprising in such a deck.
4 Creatures you drop can't be NO'ed and 14 + Arbor (which has 9 outs to draw) give you virtually 23 outs for NO. With 4 Hierarchs and 1 Quirion Ranger the 4 mana shouldn't be that hard.

of course it's mostly a "Oh I ein a game, which I may win in 5-6 rounds", but it's a "Oh i win a game"-card. That doesn't seem too bad.
Survival is also such a card....just much slower.
AND it's a counter to opposing Progenitus ;)

Waikiki
10-05-2009, 02:55 PM
Just seems to me you can't reliably resolve NO. which results into a death hierarch. :(

XiaN
10-05-2009, 03:42 PM
Which basicly is not true.

If you run NO as your main wincondition its true, but we have

Hierarch for the early game
Survival for the mid game
And eventually NO as the late game / topdeck win

So we have Force and Sprites / Clique for the early and midgame protection for survival and our animals. Seems fine and the only thing that can stop NO as our late game out is a counter. And because the enemy has troubles with our threads anyway, its ... highly unlikely that he will have another counter when you topdeck NO.

And we have 5-6 open maindeck slots. So far you can choose between 3 ways : More control with cantrips/counter, More aggro with toolbox creatures or ... NO as "combo". Cool deck :laugh:

Btw : What do you think about Battlegrace Angel (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/6.html)? Its really really expensive, but lifegain seems to be such a strong play against many decks. Damn why doesn't she cost UWG1 :laugh:

Jak
10-05-2009, 06:42 PM
It seems if you are playing NO, you are just hurting Survival and you might as well play NO Bant. It can better protect NO. More threats does not necessarily mean the deck is better.

Edit- Battlegrace Angel is terrible

Windux
10-06-2009, 08:11 AM
[QUOTE=Jak.;389026]It seems if you are playing NO, you are just hurting Survival and you might as well play NO Bant. It can better protect NO. More threats does not necessarily mean the deck is better.
/QUOTE]

Just look, what you would play instad of NO:
Spell Snare - Protects Survival and can counter threads (as Pridemage as Utility, other critter ands CB which can't counter NO in most cases).
-> NO just races the critter the opponent drops + you have to keep mana open for Spell Snare every time.
More Critter - Here it depends on what critter. Trygon is good against Moat, thats true, but it's just 1 out more against Moat.
Mongoose: Definetly better in Goblin metas, no question!
Mother of Runes: 2 completly different classes, I don't want to compare those. Mother is an early drop which can help in metas with many removal spells.

I just see here 2 ways:
Protection = Reactive
NO = Active

It's your decision if you want to answer your opponents questions or just try to ignore your opponent most of the time with Progenitus (or Empyrial Archangel in SB).

My decision is cleary to be active. You just have 4 Hardcounter anyways. Sprites are more softcounter, since it can be destroyed and just can counter things with cc=>Sprites.

Jak
10-06-2009, 06:53 PM
Just look, what you would play instad of NO:
Spell Snare - Protects Survival and can counter threads (as Pridemage as Utility, other critter ands CB which can't counter NO in most cases).
-> NO just races the critter the opponent drops + you have to keep mana open for Spell Snare every time.
More Critter - Here it depends on what critter. Trygon is good against Moat, thats true, but it's just 1 out more against Moat.
Mongoose: Definetly better in Goblin metas, no question!
Mother of Runes: 2 completly different classes, I don't want to compare those. Mother is an early drop which can help in metas with many removal spells.

I just see here 2 ways:
Protection = Reactive
NO = Active

It's your decision if you want to answer your opponents questions or just try to ignore your opponent most of the time with Progenitus (or Empyrial Archangel in SB).

My decision is cleary to be active. You just have 4 Hardcounter anyways. Sprites are more softcounter, since it can be destroyed and just can counter things with cc=>Sprites.

Okay, I really have no idea what you are talking about. Protection is not always reactive. Stuff like Vendilion Clique is not reactive, Gaddock Teeg and Meddling Mage are not reactive, and Mother of Runes (if played) is more proactive than reactive. I just fail to see how watering down the main goal of the deck to have a combo that wins in three turns is good. Zoo can race and burn your green dudes, Goblins can race and hold you from hitting 4 mana, Merfolk can hold your mana back and counter it, etc etc. Decks have outs or ways to stop you from going for your instant win which basically means you lose.

What does NO improve? We are playing Survival which means you don't automatically lose to anything. We are playing blue so we don't automatically lose to anything. The deck has been performing great.