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spider900
10-07-2009, 08:15 AM
Hey folks,

today I tested Spell Pierce instead of Spell Snare and I liked it. My list looks like this now:

// Lands
3 [A] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [A] Savannah
2 [P3] Forest (2)
1 [A] Plains (2)
1 [A] Island (2)

// Creatures
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
2 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [ALA] Rafiq of the Many
1 [JU] Wonder
1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
1 [FD] Eternal Witness

// Spells
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [LRW] Ponder
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce

I also tested Eternal Witness in the slot of Sower, because I never wanted to have Sower in a single game i played. I am quite happy with Witness.

I did some testing vs. Enchantress in the morning:

Game 1 I win, although he has 2 A. Enchantress out. He was screwed on 1 land with 2 U.Sprawls on it. 2nd Turn Survival, 4th turn attacking Predator owns him.
Game 2 he wins clearly by playing many Enchantress effects plus Mana boost. No Chance for me here.
Game 3 I have 3 Fows plus 1 Spell Pierce to counter all his Enchantress effects. I also had Predator plus a sided K.Grip in my hand, but they weren't necessary since my two 4/5 Goyfs set up a fast clock.

The deck is really nice and performs very well. I hope getting the time to take it to a tourney.

Edit: I am not quite happy with the Manabase. Basic Island und Plains suck. With Survival, I want every land to produce G. Maybe s.o. could help me?

Windux
10-07-2009, 03:56 PM
Im talking about the protection that we play.
Spell Snare, Sprites and Forces are all reactive (Yeah, you can go aggro with Sprites..)
Cliques and Teegs are mostly in the Sideboard. Clique and Teeg are disruption and not protection and disruption can be proactive and reactive.
Protection is reactive all the time (for me).

And i don't say that you have to play NO at any cost.
If you win anyway, because you have an active survival it's all great.
It's just, that it's a powerhouse in our color and can easily be played in our deck.
If I have the choice between playing turn 2 Survival and survival for Goyfs or to play NO on my fetched Arbor, I definitly going to play the Survival.
But if I draw NO off the top and do have a creature i can sacrifice for it, I will do it, if my opponent doesn't play a bunch of counters.

I hope you can understand my point of view, even if my english is bad as hell :D

Jak
10-07-2009, 07:14 PM
Im talking about the protection that we play.
Spell Snare, Sprites and Forces are all reactive (Yeah, you can go aggro with Sprites..)
Cliques and Teegs are mostly in the Sideboard. Clique and Teeg are disruption and not protection and disruption can be proactive and reactive.
Protection is reactive all the time (for me).

Protection and disruption are interchangeable most of the time. It depends on what you are trying to do. Are you trying to resolve Survival? Then playing Clique is protection. Are you trying to take the win that they have in hand away? Then Clique is disruption. Discard is not reactive but it can help protect your threats from a WoG. Basically, I think you aren't understanding what disruption, protection, and proactive and reactive means.


And i don't say that you have to play NO at any cost.
If you win anyway, because you have an active survival it's all great.
It's just, that it's a powerhouse in our color and can easily be played in our deck.

I know you aren't telling us all to play NO, but what I am asking you is why to play it at all? I personally feel like you are taking away from Survival which is the reason to run the deck. I feel NO is too slow against aggro and against more control oriented decks, we don't have enough disruption to make sure it goes through, and then it becomes card disadvantage.

Of course, it will pull you out of games you would have lost. An unblockable 10/10 that hardly dies will do that. However, does the few games that it will in for you outweigh the games that you lose? For example, you draw it after a Wrath effect, you draw it in place of disruption that could have stopped the opponents only out or you draw it in place of a creature that could have won you the game.

Playing it feels like you are trying to go all in for the win which goes against the decks nature. If you end up losing the battle over NO then you essentially lose.


If I have the choice between playing turn 2 Survival and survival for Goyfs or to play NO on my fetched Arbor, I definitly going to play the Survival.
But if I draw NO off the top and do have a creature i can sacrifice for it, I will do it, if my opponent doesn't play a bunch of counters.

That's the thing. It seems way to "narrow" (lack of a better word). Why not just focus on Survival, which as you said yourself, is better.


I hope you can understand my point of view, even if my english is bad as hell :D

It's fine :)

Jak
10-07-2009, 07:16 PM
Oh and Spell Pierce may take the place of Spell Snare in my SB.

jeanbathez
10-11-2009, 06:42 AM
Played this version yesterday in 4 rounds gettin 2nd with luck :

// NAME: survivalbant

// Lands
4 [R] Tropical Island
2 [R] Savannah
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [ZEN] Forest (4)
1 [ZEN] Island (6)
1 [ZEN] Plains (1)
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest

// Creatures
1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
3 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
1 [10E] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [JU] Wonder
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
1 [VI] Quirion Ranger
4 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
1 [ALA] Rafiq of the Many

// Spells
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
3 [M10] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [JU] Genesis
SB: 1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 4 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce

1 Round : Eternal garden : 2:1, winning in extraturns, big thanks to rafiq
2 Round : Mono white clerics with scepter, swords : 2:0
3 Round : Ugw countertop 1:2, close games
4 Round : staxx : 2:0

I was suprised winning the matches against lands.dec and staxx, but i take it :smile: . With some luck i got second, geetin some good prices. I was also suprised how good rafiq was, in winning games !!!

XiaN
10-11-2009, 11:38 AM
Played an tournament yesterday too and finished first with a slightly modified list i wanted to try out.

// Lands

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
2 Tundra
1 Forest
1 Plains

// Creatures

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Rhox War Monk
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Spellstutter Sprite
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Ethernal Witness

1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Wonder

1 Progenitus

// Stuff

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm

4 Force of Will
3 Daze

3 Survival of the Fittest
2 Natural Order

// Sideboard

4 Path to Exile
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Krosan Grip
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Meddling Mage
1 Rhox War Monk

Lost my notes in a pub yesterday, but i still remember some games

Played 2 rounds against Landstills and won both 2-0. Clique is pretty MVP here.

Played 2 rounds against Thresh's and won both 2-1. Close games, but the luck was on my side this time.

Played against a Ichorid and ... got lucky. Set him on a fast clock with NO once and got lucky with the grave trap and a Gaddock Teeg the other match. This gave me the time i needed to win.

T8 against Zoo. Like i said numerous times before : I love this MU. This time luck ( and 4 war monks :laugh: ) was on my side and i won 2-1.

T4 against Landstill again and again ... no real problem 2-0.

T2 against ANT. Oh yeah ... combo. Lost the first round close, but after sideboarding i opened with 2 storm traps, 2 force, 2 clique and 2 lands for the second round. He duressed me turn 2 and scoops, because i found the 3 land and was on the play. Yeah ok ... i take it. Round 3 i opend with 2 storm traps, 1 force, 1 mm, 1 teeg and two lands. MM on chant, followed by teeg and he scoops after duressing me :laugh:

Quick note : the 4 times i played NO this tournament only once i searched up Progenitus ( 1 turn clock against ichorid ) and the other times i searched for rafiq ( because i had no SotF out ) which won me 2 games. One against the Zoo, because i could alpha strike my life total back to the safe zone and once against one of the Threshs.

Jak
10-11-2009, 02:53 PM
Quick note : the 4 times i played NO this tournament only once i searched up Progenitus ( 1 turn clock against ichorid ) and the other times i searched for rafiq ( because i had no SotF out ) which won me 2 games. One against the Zoo, because i could alpha strike my life total back to the safe zone and once against one of the Threshs.

So why is NO even in there? Survival could have done the same thing. I can kind of understand the people playing 4 Survival and X NO, but cutting Survival for it is so wrong.

losada
10-15-2009, 06:23 AM
I'm planning to include 1 Kitchen finks instead 1 RWM. Sometimes, in 2nd and 3rd game, decks like Naya include REB, and I cant gain lifes with RWM...What do you think, guys?

Muela
10-15-2009, 01:01 PM
I'm planning to include 1 Kitchen finks instead 1 RWM. Sometimes, in 2nd and 3rd game, decks like Naya include REB, and I cant gain lifes with RWM...What do you think, guys?

Hi Losada, despite the fact of not having tested (in real life) this decktype I'm a survival player and I would you suggest you to test with spike feeder in case you had vials in your deck. I'm aware that with the new-old rules it is not such a good combat guy, however it's really a great move to fetch him and get it into play to avoid fire/ice and do some other tricks.

Apart from that, I usually prefer loxodon over kitchen unless I pack some cabal therapies, sacrify effects or their main task would be a two turns block (not life gaining). The not having the whole 4 lives at will thing can be awful. It is also harder to recur if you are playing with genesis.

My 2 cents :smile:

PS In case it was a mess and hard to understand just PM me and I can explain it in Spanish (o con una caa de por medio :wink: )

XiaN
10-15-2009, 04:48 PM
Hey losada

The finks is def. worth a try, but i see one problem here. I never had problems with REB in the Naya or Zoo MU against my Monks.

But i think finks is more the "defensive" life gainer compared to RWM. Sure our enemy needs to trade 2 for 1 ( in burn spells ) in both cases, but with Rafiq and our Exalteds the RWM simply gains more life.

Let us know how the fink test goes.


Apart from that, I usually prefer loxodon over kitchen
In a normal survival sure, but RWM is simply better in Bant Survival. He has the same tougthness ( power is not really relevant in the Zoo/Burn MUs ), gains more life in the long term and is simply one mana cheaper.


So why is NO even in there? Survival could have done the same thing.
Because i would have lost these 3 games without it. And because i don't see a reason why i shouldn't play around with the list. The 2 NO have done extremly well so far.

And no, survival wouldn't help me there. Against Ichorid i would simply be dead by the time i assembled the same power as Progenitus out of Survival. Oh and i ripped some Bridges out of his grave too :cool: And against the other two dudes i had no cards in hand and ripped NO from the top. So i would have needed : Another creature in my hand, 7!!! mana up to play survival, tutor rafiq and play him!


I can kind of understand the people playing 4 Survival and X NO, but cutting Survival for it is so wrong.
Maybe yes, maybe not. I tried a "new" system of deckbuilding this tournament.

4 Copies of a card : I want to see this card every game and i'm extremly happy to draw multiple copies.
3 Copies of a card : I want to see this card every game, but don't want to see a second copy
2 Copies of a card : I'm not unhappy to draw this card, but its only good in some situations or require a very high amound of resources or outside factors to be good
1 Copy of a card : This card is only good in some very special situations and i don't want to draw this card from the top. But i'm fine to tutor it up

So ... i don't want to draw two Survival and it worked fine in the tournament. I think first place out of 50+ people proves that.

Muela
10-15-2009, 05:41 PM
In a normal survival sure, but RWM is simply better in Bant Survival. He has the same tougthness ( power is not really relevant in the Zoo/Burn MUs ), gains more life in the long term and is simply one mana cheaper.



I agree 100% in the comp. RWM vs loxodon, but I was arguing the elephant VS finks... :smile:

XiaN
10-16-2009, 04:27 AM
I know, but if Loxodon is better than Finks ( which i don't think he is ) and RWM is better then Loxodon than RWM > Finks, too :confused:

losada
10-16-2009, 05:35 AM
Well, not only in the reb example kitchen finks are better. Against Canadian, a fire ice to your RWM, for example. Against rock, with pernicious. Maybe it's just the frustration about the game I lost against naya for this reason (the reb), but today, in a "shop tournament" (4 rounds, maybe 5) I'll try with kitchen finks.

@Muela, Loxodon has a cc 4, and my deck (with vials) works better with creatures with cc 2 or 3. In fact, when I test sower, the principal reason to discard it was her cost.

Muela
10-16-2009, 05:48 AM
I know, but if Loxodon is better than Finks ( which i don't think he is ) and RWM is better then Loxodon than RWM > Finks, too
I agree about RWM being better than Loxodon in this deck :)


@Muela, Loxodon has a cc 4, and my deck (with vials) works better with creatures with cc 2 or 3. In fact, when I test sower, the principal reason to discard it was her cost.

I see, then I would suggest you to give it a try to spike feeder unless you desperately need it to persist.

losada
10-19-2009, 11:45 AM
Finally, I couldnt play Kitchen Finks cause I had to lend some cards (including misty rainforest and fow) to a friend. The next weekend I'll test it.

mhinsz
10-19-2009, 12:30 PM
I've also been considering replacing Rhox War Monk with Kitchen Finks for the above said reasons, and for it's inability to block Goblin Piledriver.

XiaN
10-19-2009, 01:33 PM
But remember that the Finks does not pitch to Force of Will.


Against Canadian, a fire ice to your RWM
Which will do ... nothing. Its more a point against the Finks :cool:

I'm fine with the monk against Zoo/Burn/Slight. Mainly because they can not trade 1:1 with him, he can compete/race or stall an early goyf ( which is most likely 3/4 when he hits play ) and that he gains much more life with exalted and Rafiq, than the Finks would ever do.

But let us know how it goes. I like the fact, that the Finks have a much easier casting cost, but i still think it is too "defensive" as life gainer.


and for it's inability to block Goblin Piledriver.
This is a very good point. If your meta is floated with red men, he's better then RWM for sure.

Waikiki
10-19-2009, 03:00 PM
war monk > finks because war monk is aggressive lifegainer. It can attack with wings (wonder) or rafiq and gain you so much life the burn is not going to do anything. Also it blocks mongoose all day. If your afraid of goblins run more spot removal sb(+jitte)

Nidd
10-19-2009, 06:06 PM
Anyone got some thoughts on NO in this deck? Or would a CounterTop shell be better?

XiaN
10-19-2009, 06:55 PM
Read the last pages. Both things have been discussed quite intensively.

Nidd
10-19-2009, 07:52 PM
Looks like I need to sleeve up both versions and see which fits better... Thank you anyways.

majikal
10-19-2009, 11:32 PM
war monk > finks because war monk is aggressive lifegainer. It can attack with wings (wonder) or rafiq and gain you so much life the burn is not going to do anything. Also it blocks mongoose all day. If your afraid of goblins run more spot removal sb(+jitte)
This. Between the 4x Swords to Plowshares in the main and the 4x Path to Exile in the board, gobbos shoudln't be too much of a problem.

losada
10-20-2009, 06:44 AM
But remember that the Finks does not pitch to Force of Will.


Which will do ... nothing. Its more a point against the Finks :cool:

I'm fine with the monk against Zoo/Burn/Slight. Mainly because they can not trade 1:1 with him, he can compete/race or stall an early goyf ( which is most likely 3/4 when he hits play ) and that he gains much more life with exalted and Rafiq, than the Finks would ever do.

But let us know how it goes. I like the fact, that the Finks have a much easier casting cost, but i still think it is too "defensive" as life gainer.


This is a very good point. If your meta is floated with red men, he's better RWM for sure.

When I say Fire Ice, obviously I meant Ice... If your RWM is tapped, you can't win lifes... I also think RWM>Kitchen, but I need to test kitchen against Canadian...

I'm going to include 2 Jittes in side, instead 1 Path to exile and maybe the 2nd Trygon. I need to think it.

Waikiki
10-20-2009, 07:04 AM
How does fink give you live when tapped ?

Muela
10-20-2009, 10:32 AM
How does fink give you live when tapped ?

I guess he means that finks already gave you something even if it became tapped.

losada
10-20-2009, 11:29 AM
I guess he means that finks already gave you something even if it became tapped.

Yes, that's my point.

Moby Dick
10-27-2009, 07:12 AM
my list that top 4'd at 10/24 Die Hard Games: A Bunch More Duals Tourney!

30 players
you can read the half-assed report here. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=395269&postcount=53)

also went 5-0 the day after at a local tournament with 16 or 17 players, with the same list but diff sb, playing against some bgr deck(didnt see what it was, killed him to fast..)2-0, ravager affinity 2-0, another bant survival deck 1-0 (he played vials and SSSprites and a slew of bad cards) ran out of time in g2, and zoo 2-0, i scooped to canadian thresh in rd5 so he would make top4 aswell but we played it out for fun and i got it 2-1.

the loyal retainers package took many people by surprise (most didnt even know what it does) and turns sotf into an oops i win card like NO
t1- land, hierarch
t2- land, SotF, use sotf to get akroma
t3- land, pitch akroma get retainers, reanimate akroma, swing 7
t4- cast rafiq, swing 16. you've just dealt 23 dmg by turn 4 from a hand containing 2 cards you run 4 of, and 3 or 4 land drops. the thing is it only takes up two slots compared to 3/4 no + progen, not to mention retainers also can be used as a better witness for kira, rafiq, clique, or what ever other legends you run. akroma is a dead card only if you dont see a survival + 8 mana is not that uncommon to get (she avoids the fuck outa counter balance)

61 cards
non-critters
4x Force of Will
4x Survival of the Fittest
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder

critters
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Rhox War Monk
3x Quasali Pridemage
1x Trygon Predator
1x Loyal Retainers
1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1x Rafiq of the Many
1x Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1x Gigapede
1x Squee
1x Wonder

lands
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Windswept Heath
4x Tropical Island
3x Savannah
1x Tundra
1x Forest
1x Island
1x Plains

Side Board
3x Spell Pierce
3x Gaddock Teeg
3x Ravenous Trap
2x Pithing Needle
1x Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Painters Servant

Morte
10-27-2009, 11:39 AM
Congrats for the win and for the list, the Loyal Retainers trick seems a real fun! I’m going to try it.

Just a question: the Painter/Iona combo in side was for a particular matchup or just for surprise?

Moby Dick
10-27-2009, 01:21 PM
Congrats for the win and for the list, the Loyal Retainers trick seems a real fun! Im going to try it.

Just a question: the Painter/Iona combo in side was for a particular matchup or just for surprise?

the iona replaces akroma in certain matchups, like against decks with STP or mono colored decks, the painter is in there just to be cute, never pulled of the hard lock yet, its sorta win more. painter is better used with llawan against things like elves that dont play removal.

Nihil Credo
10-27-2009, 02:06 PM
What about maindecking Iona over Akroma? It just seems like a better reanimation target in the majority of cases.

Moby Dick
10-27-2009, 02:57 PM
What about maindecking Iona over Akroma? It just seems like a better reanimation target in the majority of cases.

thought about it, i think i made the right call, i kept akroma in more times than i sided in iona. If you are going for the win, haste makes a huge difference. oh and trample is key.

Henrik
10-27-2009, 05:31 PM
If you'd want to pull off a trick like that, why not just play Volrath's Shapeshifter?

Aside from being 20$ more worth the money, I can only see positive effects from this creature compared to Loyal Retainers.

Philipp2293
10-27-2009, 05:55 PM
Well, if you use VS, and anything goes to the top of your GY, your Iona/Akroma is gone.

Moby Dick
10-27-2009, 08:08 PM
what he said, the only advantage to running VS is its blue for FoW... this isnt FEB, unless im able to stack damage and discard phage LR is better.

find me one creature for VS that will win the game before another card hits the yard, and ill reconsider. remember LR/Akroma takes up 2 slots, if you cut enough stuff to make VS good then you might as well be playing feb.


Aside from being 20$ more worth the money, I can only see positive effects from this creature compared to Loyal Retainers.

last time i checked volrath's shapeshifter wasn't a 60$ card...

edit: I'm curious as to what others are running to stop tendrils combo, it's my worst match up, teeg seems to be great against dredge, but against TES or ANT he just feels like a speed bumb they can play around. I'd like to find something other than stifle/new storm trap so i dont have to worry about being chanted/silenced.

I've consider running my own chant/silence/abeyance to cast after they build up their storm count and to also be able to chant them in resp to their chant so they atleast can't win that turn and waste a chant. I just don't know if thats the right call or not.

really wish angel's grace prevented loss of life as well as damage.

Valdez
10-28-2009, 02:14 AM
I'm runnning 3 Spellstutter Sprite, +1 Vendillion Clique, +2-3 Spellsnare MD, +2 Teeg, +2 Meddling Mage from the SB.

Sprites turn SotF into a Counterbalnce light.

godryk
10-28-2009, 04:14 AM
Ichorid's on the rise here in Madrid, after being almost inexistant for months, now some good players are toying around with it, trying the new Bloodghast guy with pretty good results. That's a matchup I've never faced playing Survival Bant. What do you guys think about that particular matchup?

Henrik
10-28-2009, 04:16 AM
what he said, the only advantage to running VS is its blue for FoW... this isnt FEB, unless im able to stack damage and discard phage LR is better.

find me one creature for VS that will win the game before another card hits the yard, and ill reconsider. remember LR/Akroma takes up 2 slots, if you cut enough stuff to make VS good then you might as well be playing feb.


Yeah, this is true, but at least as many arguments could be brought up against the P3K dude as well, stifle by far being the most prominent.

I realize Shapeshifter isn't optimal and I would never play it in this deck. But I guess I still compare the two and find them sort of equal, so I doubt I'd play the other guy either.

Cool you like it though, you obvioulsy did well.



last time i checked volrath's shapeshifter wasn't a 60$ card...


No, my point was that Volrath's shapeshifter is for free, the P3K dude is 20$. I'd like to call the good ol' defense "English is not my mother tongue" for that misunderstanding =)

Waikiki
10-28-2009, 04:20 AM
IMO the akroma combo is overkill since gaddock teeg + wonder most of the time does the same but more since it kicks harder and if you have a rhox online it even gains you a ton of life.

Most time youll be getting this combo with survival anyways so I assume you should allready be in a good position.

@Ichorid I dont see this deck very often in my meta so I do not have a SB for it. If I'd would id look into : Crypt, teeg(for DR) needle (imp/coliseum) and jotun grunt.

Moby Dick
10-28-2009, 08:05 AM
IMO the akroma combo is overkill since gaddock teeg + wonder most of the time does the same but more since it kicks harder and if you have a rhox online it even gains you a ton of life.

Most time youll be getting this combo with survival anyways so I assume you should allready be in a good position.

im assuming you meant rafiq, not teeg. yes loyal retainers is overkill, just wanted to try it out because i just picked up a loyal retainer after looking for one for a long time. Just wanted to surprise people, and i did. but now that everyone in my area knows i play it, it will most likely come out. I may keep it in the board because iona is still really solid against alot of decks, acting like a 3mana super meddling mage.

rwm will go back down two 2 probably and the sprites may come back in, because zoo seems to have died down here and combo seems to be on the rise.

against dredge teeg is the mvp, i have never lost a game against it when i get a teeg to stick. it turns off so much of thier deck that they really cant overwhelm you unless they mill 3 or 4 bridges and all their therapies and narcomeobas. they make your goyfs big for you , so goyfs become an instant 2-4 turn (depending if you get hierarchs/rafiq or not) clock right on turn 2. i really see dredge as an easy matchup for this deck.


Most time youll be getting this combo with survival anyways so I assume you should allready be in a good position.

There was this one game i played against another bant survival deck. I was on the draw, told my opp I was keeping a risky hand with a bunch of goyfs, a hierarch, and no lands. Drew my card for the turn, faked being disappointed, went to clean up and discarded my akroma. At this point he thinks I'm screwed and relaxes, thinking he has the game. On my turn two I play land, noble hierarch. He's still thinking he's got this as he played a 2/3 goyf to join his QPM. On my turn 3 i play land then retainers. He asks what retainers does, I explain. He forces retainers, I force his force, I swing for 7 and pass the turn with a 6/6 wall(vigilance is huge). He cant do anything, I proceed to win on turn 5.

I think i ruined his day, was that a dick move, or is bluffing a part of any card game? :P

Waikiki
10-28-2009, 09:26 AM
I indeed ment rafiq. Dont know how I wrote down teeg.

Its a nice move to make a bluf but getting a 2card combo with both of them being single in your deck is lucky aswell ;)

Congrats on your finish nonetheless!

Morte
10-28-2009, 11:23 AM
Its a nice move to make a bluf but getting a 2card combo with both of them being single in your deck is lucky aswell ;)


The combo is aimed to a deck with a SotF package. Resolving it without SotF is unlikely, of course; the combo is just an extra option when SotF is online.

The question is, the combo is worth its slots? It’s something different to Wonder/Rafiq. If resolved, the combo can GG very quickly: in this deck, it could be compared to NO/Progenitus. In other contexts, it could be compared to things like Stifle/Nought, Hexmage/Depths, Painter/Griondstone and so on.

The criteria of evaluation is how bad the combo pieces are by themselves in comparison to the advantage of a resolved combo. Are all these combos just overkill? Maybe; the point is that, in some cases, their speed can allow to win games that a few turns later could be lost.

Akroma/Retainers combo is interesting, if compared to other similar tricks, because, with a SotF package, it just requires two slots - not too much to shuffle away with the help of Brainstorm/Ponder.

The point, in conclusion, is to define the percentage of dead draws we can accept in exchange for the option to close the game quickly in the right matchups.

Is it 0% or more?

Waikiki
10-28-2009, 12:46 PM
Like I said before, Its overkill. The cards do 0 on their own which is something I am trying to avoid. The deck needs to be less survival dependant.

majikal
10-28-2009, 08:31 PM
Well, the Loyal Retainers itself is not entirely useless, as it can be used in a pinch to reanimate your Rafiq in the event it gets Snuffed or Bolted. But for that purpose I think I'd rather have Kira, Great Glass-Spinner, although the combo application of Loyal Retainers does have its allure.

Moby Dick
10-28-2009, 10:54 PM
Well, the Loyal Retainers itself is not entirely useless, as it can be used in a pinch to reanimate your Rafiq in the event it gets Snuffed or Bolted. But for that purpose I think I'd rather have Kira, Great Glass-Spinner, although the combo application of Loyal Retainers does have its allure.

im thinking retainers is better used as utility rather than a win con, what off color/high CC legends can be used as tech, for ex. something that wipes opponents permanents, or can be used as disruption/protection. i know there is a black legend that let you pay 1 life to give something -1/-1 as many times as you have life. that would allow us to survival up a one sided wog (for the most part).

Jak
10-28-2009, 11:01 PM
I am pretty set with this outside of Spell Snare. I kind of want something better but I think it will be good enough.

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare (something better?)

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Eternal Witness
1 Trygon Predator
1 Rafiq

1 Squee
1 Wonder

SB
4 Path to Exile
3 Krosan Grip
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Meddling Mage
1 Rhox War Monk
3 Tormod's Crypt / Kitchen Finks / blah

The Loyal Retainer's thing seems interesting. I doubt I would ever run it since it is so Survival dependent. I mean, from the example a few posts back saying you win turn 4, if I get Hierarch and land a Surviva turn 2 and then continue to hit my land drops, I win anyway. The only reason I could see running it would be for utility, not just to beat down with Akroma.

Goblin Snowman
10-28-2009, 11:50 PM
The Loyal Retainer's thing seems interesting. I doubt I would ever run it since it is so Survival dependent. I mean, from the example a few posts back saying you win turn 4, if I get Hierarch and land a Surviva turn 2 and then continue to hit my land drops, I win anyway. The only reason I could see running it would be for utility, not just to beat down with Akroma.

True story. It's the same reasoning why things like Oriss aren't run; with Survival active, cute combos like this are just win-more quite a bit of the time.

majikal
10-29-2009, 12:06 AM
I am pretty set with this outside of Spell Snare. I kind of want something better but I think it will be good enough.

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare (something better?)

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Eternal Witness
1 Trygon Predator
1 Rafiq

1 Squee
1 Wonder

SB
4 Path to Exile
3 Krosan Grip
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Meddling Mage
1 Rhox War Monk
3 Tormod's Crypt / Kitchen Finks / blah

The Loyal Retainer's thing seems interesting. I doubt I would ever run it since it is so Survival dependent. I mean, from the example a few posts back saying you win turn 4, if I get Hierarch and land a Surviva turn 2 and then continue to hit my land drops, I win anyway. The only reason I could see running it would be for utility, not just to beat down with Akroma.
I've been back and forth with Spell Pierce and Spell Snare. Pierce I like because you can snag things like Aether Vial, Stifle, and FoW early on, but with the drawback of not hitting creatures, which is actually a pretty big deal sometimes.

How are you liking Vendilion Clique and Witness in the MD? I'm currently running Ponder and really enjoy the level of fixing it gives me, but every once in a while I feel like it doesn't do quite enough to play it over another creature.

Jak
10-29-2009, 12:36 AM
I've been back and forth with Spell Pierce and Spell Snare. Pierce I like because you can snag things like Aether Vial, Stifle, and FoW early on, but with the drawback of not hitting creatures, which is actually a pretty big deal sometimes.

How are you liking Vendilion Clique and Witness in the MD? I'm currently running Ponder and really enjoy the level of fixing it gives me, but every once in a while I feel like it doesn't do quite enough to play it over another creature.

The only problem with Spell Pierce main is that it can't hit Pridemage, Goyf, Bob, etc. It also handles things that are most threatening to the deck like Hymn, Sinkhole, DD, Jitte, etc. Still needs testing.

I love Cliques and Witness. Like I would never cut them. Flash is amazing. In response to Standstill, as a blocker, eot ftw, or after they draw their card to take the Wrath from their hand. Witness is insurance and I would really not run the deck with out her. It won't rear the deck apart but you miss those plays of getting your Rafiq back, getting the Sword back, getting your Survival back, or getting that FoW back to put the game away.

Waikiki
10-29-2009, 04:19 AM
I placed 2nd in a dutch online tournament with a very outdated list.

Matches:

CB Top 2-0
Faeries 2-0
Merfolk 1-2
Rock 2-0
Noshow2-0
Elves 2-0
Goyfsligh 2-1
Then loose in the finals from UGB CB top running 3 needle 3 pulse 3 deed and grips on side. Also the mainboard is very anti survival. I lost 1-2 But 3rd round mull to 5 (4 land) I did manage to make it very very close (him on 4)


@Jak, Im able to get the land down low to 18 because of the ponders so I wont get screwed once in a while. You replace them with 3drops. Hasn't this been an issue for you?

If you dont like spell snares, I'd suggest running spell pierce/ mongoose or quirion ranger + ponders

Henrik
10-29-2009, 05:32 AM
Concerning overkill and winmore stuff, I've started to consider even Rafiq to feel winmore. I have been a huge fan in the past, but my strategy has changed a little bit.

Now, once I have landed a primary beater (clique, Goyf or Monk with Wonder) I start to play reactively with sprites. As long as my opponent does not play a flyer or something else that will have a huge impact, i basicaly ignore it and just go squee -> spellstutter sprite every turn to counter removal on my beater.

Tapping out for 4 mana to play Rafiq fits really badly in this gameplan, and I find myself never wanting to play him anymore.

Are you guys still in favor for Rafiq? I'm considering playing a single nimble mongoose instead, since I've been missing the little guy from threshold builds.

Henrik
10-29-2009, 05:39 AM
How are you liking Vendilion Clique and Witness in the MD? I'm currently running Ponder and really enjoy the level of fixing it gives me, but every once in a while I feel like it doesn't do quite enough to play it over another creature.

I agree with Jak here, Clique is awesomeness, and even though Witness is not quite as awesome, I don't dare remove her from the list. It just feels safe to know she is in there when I get in trouble.

Concerning Ponder, I think you reason a little bit strange on this one. Whenever you desperately need a creature, drawing a ponder gives you 3 chances to draw into one, or more, it's never dead. Whenever you are in topdeck mode, Brainstorm and Ponder are really important because of this. Ponder is also great for manafixing in the first 2 turns, especially if you run a lot of basics like I do.

EDIT: Sorry, when I read my post it sounds like I think you're a total moron, that was not my intention. Of course you already know all of this =)

jeanbathez
10-29-2009, 05:54 AM
Concerning overkill and winmore stuff, I've started to consider even Rafiq to feel winmore. I have been a huge fan in the past, but my strategy has changed a little bit.

Now, once I have landed a primary beater (clique, Goyf or Monk with Wonder) I start to play reactively with sprites. As long as my opponent does not play a flyer or something else that will have a huge impact, i basicaly ignore it and just go squee -> spellstutter sprite every turn to counter removal on my beater.

Tapping out for 4 mana to play Rafiq fits really badly in this gameplan, and I find myself never wanting to play him anymore.

Are you guys still in favor for Rafiq? I'm considering playing a single nimble mongoose instead, since I've been missing the little guy from threshold builds.

Interesting i was first against Rafiq, but after testing him i a tournament, i don't wanna miss him anymore, he won me so many games. I think Rafiq isn't win more, if you lay him down, he says : answer me or you will loose !!!
But perhaps that depends on the personal playstyle and on the opponents deck. I often get him eot sometimes with wonder, and if my opponent is tapped out....

At next i will test Kira, because most of the time i use my sprites for removal, i'am going to cut sprites down to 3 and add 1 kira..

Waikiki
10-29-2009, 10:58 AM
Concerning overkill and winmore stuff, I've started to consider even Rafiq to feel winmore. I have been a huge fan in the past, but my strategy has changed a little bit.

Now, once I have landed a primary beater (clique, Goyf or Monk with Wonder) I start to play reactively with sprites. As long as my opponent does not play a flyer or something else that will have a huge impact, i basicaly ignore it and just go squee -> spellstutter sprite every turn to counter removal on my beater.

Tapping out for 4 mana to play Rafiq fits really badly in this gameplan, and I find myself never wanting to play him anymore.

Are you guys still in favor for Rafiq? I'm considering playing a single nimble mongoose instead, since I've been missing the little guy from threshold builds.

I had this in my mind a while back. then realized from a losing situation rafiq can swing the game in your favor very often.

jeanbathez
10-29-2009, 11:22 AM
I had this in my mind a while back. then realized from a losing situation rafiq can swing the game in your favor very often.

I think Waikiki hit it, with just 1 phrase, where i needed a lot more :smile:

@Waikiki : congratz on the finish !!!

Henrik
10-29-2009, 11:25 AM
Can you define "swing the game"?

If you mean you're on low life total against an aggro deck (or similar) i guess you refer to the lifegain punch a war monk gives? In this case, Isn't the war monk the creature that's really important?

I have had those situations as well, but when I tap out to play Rafiq, there comes the removal on monk in response to exalted triggers. I feel it's a false safety net that most often backfires, to the degree I don't dare play him anymore. Kira could help though, never tried that.

Waikiki
10-29-2009, 11:35 AM
Vs Merfolk I had just a war monk online and He had some lords and was kicking my ass. I topdecked rafiq and swung for 8 lifegain a turn.

my opponent wins the dmg race even with survival out. I swing for lethal thnx to rafiq overpowering my goyf.

Etc.

majikal
10-29-2009, 11:51 AM
I agree with Jak here, Clique is awesomeness, and even though Witness is not quite as awesome, I don't dare remove her from the list. It just feels safe to know she is in there when I get in trouble.

Concerning Ponder, I think you reason a little bit strange on this one. Whenever you desperately need a creature, drawing a ponder gives you 3 chances to draw into one, or more, it's never dead. Whenever you are in topdeck mode, Brainstorm and Ponder are really important because of this. Ponder is also great for manafixing in the first 2 turns, especially if you run a lot of basics like I do.

EDIT: Sorry, when I read my post it sounds like I think you're a total moron, that was not my intention. Of course you already know all of this =)
I think you may have misinterpreted me somewhat.

I run 20 creatures in my build, but in the slot where Jak runs Eternal Witness and V Clique, I run Ponders, which are fantastic for me, but every once in a while I feel like they should be Eternal Witness or V Clique, not just any old creature. The problem for me is I would love to have those specific creatures in my build, but I don't dare cut any of the other creatures for them, and Ponder is the only flexible slot that I have if I were to try and squeeze them in.

I do run Clique in my Sideboard, so that helps a bit, but I really can't find room at all for Witness.

My list is similar to Waikiki's, for reference.

Jak
10-29-2009, 06:52 PM
@Jak, Im able to get the land down low to 18 because of the ponders so I wont get screwed once in a while. You replace them with 3drops. Hasn't this been an issue for you?

If you dont like spell snares, I'd suggest running spell pierce/ mongoose or quirion ranger + ponders

I have been getting flooded when I was running 19 or 20 lands so working with 18 so far has been alright. I probably need to fetch a Noble Hierarch now and then whereas you may not need to, but it allows me to fit in everything I want and sometimes need into the deck.

Ponder is debatable. I kind of want to trim stuff like War Monks or something down, but I have been loving having three. I guess in my meta where there is a lot of aggro, having a more defined list against them is better for me.

I love Spell Snares but they are definitely meta dependent. Mine is a cluster fuck of jank and then sometimes really good decks so it is bad and good sometimes. I'd rather hit stuff like Confidant, Pridemage, and Goyf though. I'll take my chances of playing against a deck who's curve starts at 4.

If Spell Snares end up being terrible for me in my meta, I'll probably add 2 Ponders and a Sower (Gilded Drake?) or something.

Edit- Oh and Rafiq is pretty awesome. Winning games out of no where is a good thing and definitely not win more.

I might try adding a single Taiga, since now all my fetches can grab, for Anger, which would probably make take the place of Rafiq. I doubt I'll stick with it but haste makes War Monks, Trygon, etc much better and has that out of no where win like Rafiq, except now you don't already need a creature on the board, you don't, need to pay 4 mana, etc. It's worth looking at.

Philipp2293
10-29-2009, 07:25 PM
Has anybody ever considere Azorius Guildmage for the SB? Tap down opposing Goyfs, Dreadnoughts, Tombstalkers etc...... AND a Stifle on legs.

dearleader
10-29-2009, 08:05 PM
Anger is entirely useless without survival. Drawing it in the first few turns suck, and it makes a lot more hands unkeepable. For the elves deck, getting awkward hands with anger and squee was the motivating reason to try a Survival-less build.

Jak
10-29-2009, 08:25 PM
Anger is entirely useless without survival. Drawing it in the first few turns suck, and it makes a lot more hands unkeepable. For the elves deck, getting awkward hands with anger and squee was the motivating reason to try a Survival-less build.

So true. Consider my mind changed on wanting to try it. I totally forgot why this deck is good.

Kuma
10-31-2009, 10:03 AM
Question:

How do you beat Landstill w/CounterTop with this deck?

I gave it a try at a local tournament yesterday, and I lost to Landstill twice. He just answered everything I played.

Enigma
10-31-2009, 10:50 AM
You need to have your Survival stick and it's better if you run the Faerie package (4x Spellstutter, 2x Clique). I also run Genesis in SB for this MU.

P-M

Solaran_X
10-31-2009, 11:54 AM
Has anyone tried Stoic Angel in the sideboard for heavy aggro matches?

Wargoos
10-31-2009, 12:40 PM
Hi, Im currently peeking for a new deck and my vision dropped on this and zoo.
Which of the decks performs better in a random meta?
Which are benefits does this deck possibly has over zoo?

I would appreciate an answer,
regards.

Waikiki
10-31-2009, 01:03 PM
This deck has answers to almost everything which is some advantage in a random meta.

@stoic angel. Sounds interesting if you expect alot of aggro maybe it could even do pretty decent vs merfolk. Ill have to try it out.

Vs landstill good cards are (Wonder, teeg!!, clique, sprites and genesis)

majikal
11-01-2009, 12:10 AM
Played tonight and got 2nd in the Mana Drain tournament in Chattanooga.

Here's the list for reference:

4x Noble Hierarch
3x Spellstutter Sprite
2x Qasali Pridemage
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Rhox War Monk
1x Trygon Predator
1x Squee
1x Wonder
1x Rafiq of the Many

4x Survival of the Fittest
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Spell Snare
3x Ponder

4x Misty Rainforest
4x Windswept Heath
4x Tropical Island
3x Savannah
1x Tundra
1x Island
1x Forest

SB:
2x Ravenous Trap
2x Pithing Needle
2x Vendilion Clique
3x Path to Exile
3x Gaddock Teeg
1x Trygon Predator
2x Umezawa's Jitte

I'm quite pleased with the Sideboard, and I ended up using everything in it to great success all night. The metagame was quite varied, and we didn't have any random Standard decks show up, which was nice. All in all, it seemed pretty healthy without any notable archetypes missing except for storm combo.

Round 1 vs. Bob with Reanimator w/ Entomb.

G1: He wins the die roll and starts with Fetch for Badlands, Entomb -> Iona. He plays Chrome Mox imprinting something black and then casts Reanimate. It's in and he blindly calls Blue since he heard me joking about mulling into FoW before the tournament started. Sad times for him when I Swords it and win with little men.

SB: I sided something out for 2x Ravenous Trap. Didn't take good enough notes here.

G2: He leads with land, go. On my turn I play a fetch and pass the turn. On his next turn he plays another land and casts Burning Wish, which I Spell Snare. He never sees any more business and I get there with a Rhox War Monk.

1-0

Round 2 vs Robert with Canadian Thresh.
I lent him the cards for the deck, so we drew.

1-0-1

Round 3 vs Doc with Team America

Game 1: I go first and lead with a turn 1 Hierarch, followed by Survival on turn 2 with Daze mana open and FoW backup. This game goes on for a while and I eventually overwhelm him with Survival advantage and flying Goyfs.

SB: OUT -> Trygon Predator, 1x Rhox War Monk. IN -> 2x Vendilion Clique

Game 2: He cracks his fetch and plays Ponder, and I start again with turn 1 Hierarch. This time he Darkblasts my Hierarch and Wastelands my next two lands. I don't recover and he beats me to death with Tombstalker.

Game 3: This starts the same way as game 2, only he draws a lot of Hymn to Tourach and some Diabolic Edicts along with his Wastelands. I stick a Survival, but his Hymns had eaten my hand at that point. Before I can draw creatures to take advantage of it, he Grips it and drops a Stalker. Somehow, miraculously, I managed to Swords his Tombstalker while I was at 3 life, flash in a Spellstutter Sprite followed by a Noble Hierarch on my turn, and start pecking away at his life total. He hard casts Snuff Out on my Spellstutter at some point but I've got another one by then and cast it on his EOT and topdeck a V. Clique to seal the deal after his next draw step.

2-0-1

Round 4 vs. Mark with Ichorid

Game 1: I win the die roll and play a Noble Hierarch off of a basic Forest. Luckily he has no idea what I'm playing, so on his turn he casts Cabal Therapy naming Tarmogoyf (he took a shortcut here and named as he announced the spell). I don't have any, so I let it resolve and show him my hand full of Pridemage, Squee, Rhox War Monk, Misty Rainforest and Force of Will. On my turn I draw into Brainstorm, fetch a Tropical, play a Pridemage and say go. His turn he plays Putrid Imp, dumping a bunch of dredge guys into his grave and flashes back his Cabal Therapy. I respond with Brainstorm and put my FoW on top of my library after drawing into more creatures and a Survival. He names FoW (predictably) and I show him my now-FoWless hand. I stick a Survival and a Pridemage and by the time he has enough Bridges in his graveyard to do anything I'm able to sac Pridemage (killing my own Survival though) and hold off his Ichorids with Rhox War Monk until I can fly over with an exalted SSS for the win.

SB: Out -> 4x Survival, Squee, Wonder, Trygon Predator. IN -> 2x Ravenous Trap, 3x Gaddock Teeg, 2x Umezawa's Jitte.

G2: I mulligan into Ravenous Trap. He opens with Gemstone Mine and Putrid Imp, which I FoW. Bait taken, I guess. He drops LED, but passes the turn. I play a Noble Hierarch and say go. He sticks on one land, passes the turn. I drop a Pridemage on my turn and send it back to him. I figure something's up at this point. Either he's got something in his hand that he really needs or he's got a trick. I was right. He plays Firestorm on his turn, pitching a Stinkweed Imp and a Grave Troll to take out my Pridemage and Hierarch. In response, I sac Qasali to nuke his LED, and he cracks it in response for blue, dumping an Ichorid, a Bridge From Below, and a Deep Analysis. I allow Firestorm to resolve, and as his Bridge trigger is on the stack I Ravenous Trap him before he's able to flash back his Deep Anal. He scoops it up.

3-0-1

Top 4
Round 1 vs Tina w/ Burn.
G1: She burns me a lot, and then I stick a Goyf and a RWM and win.
SB: OUT ->Survival package. IN -> 2x Jitte, 2x Path to Exile (She has Hellspark Elemental and Goblin Guides), 2x V. Clique
G2: More of the same, she burns me down to 1 this time before I stabilize with RWM and Jitte. She tried to Vortex, but I had the Pridemage.

4-0-1

Round 2 vs Doc's Team America again.
This match plays out almost identically to the first one, only I don't miraculously recover in game three. Sad Face. He seemed happy to win the Mana Drain though!

4-1-1


Some thoughts: I need to work on my Mana Base. I need plenty of green sources, but at the same time I feel like I really need a basic Plains. I might cut the Tundra for one, as I never really felt I had trouble getting blue mana.

Waikiki
11-01-2009, 04:21 AM
congratulations, really glad my list with snares worked for you. Any more thoughts on the snares how where they for you ? Also if you do -tundra +savannah you would be having my exact list ;) I dont think tundra is needed anymore now that we have misty rainforest.

majikal
11-01-2009, 05:40 AM
Snare was amazing for me all night, really. It hit everything from Goyf to PoP, Hymn to Tourach, and much, much more. The only matchup where I felt it was completely useless was Dredge, and would have gladly traded them in for Spell Pierce. Coincidentally, Path to Exile was the weakest card in my sideboard, so I might switch those out for Spell Pierce.

4 Savannah actually seems really good. That pretty much guarantees I can't get locked out of green by Wasteland. I'll give it a shot.

Waikiki
11-01-2009, 05:51 AM
I think you got matchups where path didn't shine as much. I would certainly keep them in when facing faeries/goblins and other creature heavy decks.

the tundra could also be a basic plains which gives you the needed stp mana under mana denial plans.

@all

Where are you guys from btw? I'm interested how far my build has reached so far hehe.

majikal
11-01-2009, 03:28 PM
I'm from Tennessee, USA. Not a terribly large Legacy scene here, but I'm working on that. :)

jeanbathez
11-04-2009, 04:21 PM
@all

Where are you guys from btw? I'm interested how far my build has reached so far hehe.

Only Germany :smile:

btw here is my new list :

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [U] Tropical Island
2 [U] Savannah
2 [ZEN] Forest (1)
1 [ZEN] Island (4)
1 [ZEN] Plains (3)

// Creatures
1 [BOK] Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
3 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [ALA] Rafiq of the Many
3 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
1 [JU] Wonder

// Spells
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [MM] Brainstorm
2 [LRW] Ponder
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
3 [DIS] Spell Snare

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [PY] Spore Frog
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [JU] Genesis
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg


not sure about the spll snares main..

@ all, what were your experiences with spell pierce ?

XiaN
11-04-2009, 04:35 PM
Spell Pierce was kind of weak for me. Tested them too, but it's not that good in an aggro only meta :laugh:

My current list for a meta mostly containing Aggro. And i'm from Berlin, Germany.

Deck: Mirari's Call (http://magic-decks.de/deck-5189-f7d845e73e606230823f5aee1c89de78-de.html)

Lands
4 x Misty Rainforest (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Misty+Rainforest)
4 x Windswept Heath (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Windswept+Heath)
4 x Tropical Island (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Tropical+Island)
4 x Savannah (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Savannah)
1 x Forest (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Forest)
1 x Plains (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Plains)

Creatures
4 x Noble Hierarch (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Noble+Hierarch)
4 x Tarmogoyf (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Tarmogoyf)
3 x Rhox War Monk (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Rhox+War+Monk)
3 x Vendilion Clique (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Vendilion+Clique)
2 x Spellstutter Sprite (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Spellstutter+Sprite)
1 x Trygon Predator (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Trygon+Predator)
1 x Eternal Witness (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Eternal+Witness)
1 x Rafiq of the Many (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Rafiq+of+the+Many)
1 x Squee, Goblin Nabob (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Squee%2C+Goblin+Nabob)
1 x Wonder (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Wonder)

Goodies
4 x Swords to Plowshares (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Swords+to+Plowshares)
4 x Brainstorm (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Brainstorm)
3 x Ponder (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Ponder)
4 x Force of Will (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Force+of+Will)
4 x Survival of the Fittest (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Survival+of+the+Fittest)
2 x Umezawa's Jitte (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Umezawa%27s+Jitte)

Sideboard
4 x Mindbreak Trap (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Mindbreak+Trap)
4 x Path to Exile (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Path+to+Exile)
2 x Qasali Pridemage (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Qasali+Pridemage)
2 x Krosan Grip (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Krosan+Grip)
1 x Rhox War Monk (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Rhox+War+Monk)
1 x Gaddock Teeg (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Gaddock+Teeg)
1 x Meddling Mage (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Meddling+Mage)

Deckstatistik anzeigen (http://magic-decks.de/deck-5189-f7d845e73e606230823f5aee1c89de78-de.html)

Jak
11-04-2009, 06:34 PM
What's up with calling that Mirari's Call?

TheBirdMan
11-04-2009, 06:50 PM
Jak your first post list has only 59 cards mb what is the 60th card also is this list out dated?

Jak
11-04-2009, 07:59 PM
Jak your first post list has only 59 cards mb what is the 60th card also is this list out dated?

I'll update that when I'm not on my phone but it's...

-1 Tundra
-1 Sprite

+3 Spell Snare

Snares could be Ponders as well.

sdematt
11-04-2009, 08:19 PM
Vancouver, BC.

I took this to a local tourney, and unfortunately, I got dominated. Through no fault of the deck, I think, but just horrible draws (I got wastelanded, then didn't draw another blue land for the rest of the game with all blue in hand). I plan to play it again, but that kind of disappointed me. Before and after the tournament, though, the games I played were good.

I'm running:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [A] Tropical Island
2 [A] Savannah
2 [ALA] Forest (3)
1 [7E] Island (2)
1 [MR] Plains (1)

// Creatures
1 [ALA] Rafiq of the Many
3 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
1 [JU] Genesis
1 [10E] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [JU] Wonder
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [ARB] Winged Coatl

// Spells
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [M10] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [BOK] Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
SB: 1 [LRW] Sower of Temptation


I know Winged Coatl seems a little subpar, but it's saved my ass many times (Goyf, Tombstalker, Mongoose, etc.). I definitely like the deck, and will continue playing it (since I had most of the cards anyway). Thanks for putting this primer together you guys!

XiaN
11-05-2009, 02:24 AM
What's up with calling that Mirari's Call?
ZOMG, i want to steal the decklist, relabel it and tell all people i've inventeted it! :really:

Well uhmn .. no. Its simply the name i sign in on tournaments. Its an homage to the Onslaught/Odysee storyline where Mirari (http://magiccards.info/od/en/303.html) and especially its "call" destroys all sorts of people/places/worlds :laugh:

Read more (http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Mirari)

And sdematt : That just happens from time to time. Same happend to me on a big german tournament, where the deck keeps floating lands to my hand ... for over 7 matches ( >14 games! ). Couldn't get rid of it, even after numerous pile shuffles before every match. Sometimes Murphy strikes hard :laugh:

crow_mw
11-05-2009, 07:46 AM
Oh, no, sdematt - please come back to black builds :<

Jokemon
11-05-2009, 07:53 AM
Im from Vxj, Sweden.
Love this deck alot. Here's my newest list after some more testing:

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage (i've placed Trygon in the SB, the Pridemage is pure awesome and Trygon shines only in a few match-ups)
3 Spellstutter Sprite
1 Wonder
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Rhox War Monk
1 Rafiq of the many
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

4 Survival of the fittest

2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare (Works like a charm, tried Spell Pierce and i didn't like it. Spell Snare counters most of the relevant threats)
4 Swords to plowshares

3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
3 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Tundra
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath

SB
3 Krosan Grip
2 UMezawa's Jitte
2 Gaddock Teeg (prolly will add a 3rd in the board)
1 Trygon Predator
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Genesis
1 Spellstutter sprite (i want to add a fourth instead of a Clique i vs control)
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress (my favourite SB-card! good against Merfolk, Meat-Hooks, Faeries (which is the new Tier 1 deck in Sweden) and not the least Progenitus!)
2 Tormod's Crypt (the slot I change alot, depending on meta)

Gibsonmac
11-05-2009, 09:32 AM
Im from Vxj, Sweden.
Love this deck alot. Here's my newest list after some more testing:

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage (i've placed Trygon in the SB, the Pridemage is pure awesome and Trygon shines only in a few match-ups)
3 Spellstutter Sprite
1 Wonder
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Rhox War Monk
1 Rafiq of the many

4 Survival of the fittest

2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare (Works like a charm, tried Spell Pierce and i didn't like it. Spell Snare counters most of the relevant threats)
4 Swords to plowshares

3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
3 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Tundra
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath

SB
3 Krosan Grip
2 UMezawa's Jitte
2 Gaddock Teeg (prolly will add a 3rd in the board)
1 Trygon Predator
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Genesis
1 Spellstutter sprite (i want to add a fourth instead of a Clique i vs control)
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress (my favourite SB-card! good against Merfolk, Meat-Hooks, Faeries (which is the new Tier 1 deck in Sweden) and not the least Progenitus!)
2 Tormod's Crypt (the slot I change alot, depending on meta)

No Squee?? seems like a staple, also since you do not play daze, would Path not be a better choice over swords?

Jokemon
11-05-2009, 09:58 AM
ha, missed him, of course i play squee :)

Why would Path be better? I doesnt bother me that my OP get some life.

Waikiki
11-05-2009, 11:05 AM
Most of the time I call my decks 5c scion of the UR dragon controll. But the judge simply ignores it and names the deck correctly :(

@Speill pierce it seems to situational for my meta and would not even give it a shot for my sb.

@md, I think in an aggro meta I would not play spell snare at all and just go with more beaters or some more removal. But its a great all rounder which stops alot of cards in the format.

Gibsonmac
11-05-2009, 12:22 PM
ha, missed him, of course i play squee :)

Why would Path be better? I doesnt bother me that my OP get some life.

I guess it depends on what sees play in your area, sometimes Path has no drawback (they either don't play basics or very few and have them in play already) and it is sooo much better against Dreadstill and other stiflenought builds, giving them 12 life is pretty harsh and they can often times be put far enough ahead from it that winning becomes very tricky, however giving a fish player 2 life trading for a Lord is pretty awesome...

Jokemon
11-05-2009, 12:50 PM
Well thats true, but i hardly see any Dreadnoughts so i don't worry too much about them, the largest creature i will remove is tombstalker and goyfs basicly

majikal
11-05-2009, 01:04 PM
We've got Pridemage to deal with Dreadnoughts.

Jak
11-05-2009, 07:34 PM
ZOMG, i want to steal the decklist, relabel it and tell all people i've inventeted it! :really:

Well uhmn .. no. Its simply the name i sign in on tournaments. Its an homage to the Onslaught/Odysee storyline where Mirari (http://magiccards.info/od/en/303.html) and especially its "call" destroys all sorts of people/places/worlds :laugh:

Read more (http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Mirari)


No, it's just simpler if the deck is called one thing...

Definitely play Swords over Path. Tempo is huge with this deck.

SpencerForHire
11-05-2009, 10:03 PM
Regardless of if you play Daze or not, Path to Exile speeds your opponent up with an extra land drop and is neutral relative card advantage for your opponent, one card disadvantage for yourself. In any but the fastest of aggro decks, I can't really warrant them getting a land ever being preferable to them gaining life unless you would otherwise just die.

uprite
11-10-2009, 11:52 AM
So guys, I have just started testing this deck and this is my list:

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Spellstutter Sprite
1 Wonder
3 Rhox War Monk
1 Rafiq of the many
1 Akroma (white)
1 Loyal Retainer
1 Squee Goblin Nabob

4 Survival of the fittest

3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare (thinking about replacing with something else, its here and there)
4 Swords to plowshares

2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
3 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Tundra
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand

Didnt bother making a sideboard yet since players that i play with likes to switch decks up every week, so I would probably make it last minute. I really liked the mini combo with Akroma so against zoo or goblins there is a quick way out. I havent tried Kira yet how is it? Any suggestions on what I can replace Spellsnare with? I was thinking about dazes but they are crap late game.

Moby Dick
11-10-2009, 12:11 PM
You really shouldn't be playing loyal retainers (atleast not in the main), it's just a win more that relies on survival. I was playing it just to be cute and surprise my opponents, not to play the most optimal list. The only way I can see LR being playable is in the sb with Iona or Kuro-

Legendary Creature - Demon Spirit 9/9, 6BBB (9)
At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice Kuro, Pitlord unless you pay {B}{B}{B}{B}.
Pay 1 life: Target creature gets -1/-1 until end of turn.

uprite
11-10-2009, 01:18 PM
Yeah i know alot of things stop loyal retainer in other legacy decks that are mainboard (stifles,trickbind, pithing....) but in an matchup against mono red goblins or zoo (as long as you got a counter) its like an easy win if you have survival. I guess those are good matchups already for us? Anyone use gilded drakes as a one of mainboard for larit mage tokens or dreadnauhgts?

Moby Dick
11-10-2009, 05:11 PM
Against mono red/zoo you should be wining with RWM, don't think akroma is gg against zoo, they run STP/PTE. If I were to land an Iona against zoo I'd most likely name white (depending on the game state).

crow_mw
11-10-2009, 05:24 PM
This is actually quite an interesting issue, which I would love to hear some opinions on. How important is it to play 'I win now' card in Survival deck in general? Many 'surprise techs' such as Retainers + Akroma are discarded as 'just a I win more card, if you have survival in play you should be already winning'.

Still I have read numerous reports where players claim, that they survival stays in play only for a turn or two usually. Personally I have also lost games in which after few turns of stalemate my opponent had time to dig for answers or swarm me with little guys only because the best thing I could dig for was 3/4 Goyf.

I realize that more dead draws can lead to lost games easily. Still the idea of changing survival from 'ok, now I start gaining control' to 'find an answer NOW or you loose' is quite appealing.

I realize, that for a numerous reasons this question should be approached differently for Bant survival, than for blueless builds. Bant survival if the most controllish survival build since ATS. The number of counters limit the risk of loosing game after resolving survival. Wonder also helps a lot as 3/4 flying Goyf is a lot more of a threat than 3/4 hasted Goyf. Especially in combination with Rafiq (though already in this thread someone suggested dropping him as a win more card as well).

Still the question is valid - is it really not worth it to dedicate a certain number of slots (usually two) for some deadly combo? The combo cards more likely than not will be useless without survival. They however allow you to occasionally steal games you should have lost and force your opponent to find an answer within a turn or two, or loose.

chokin
11-10-2009, 05:57 PM
If people need help keeping Survival in play, run a Witness and make sure she's one of your first targets. Forcing your opponent to deal with Survival and a Witness or two Survivals is pretty unfair.

Waikiki
11-11-2009, 04:58 AM
Its not the fact that loyal combo is win more. The 2 pieces do almost nothing on their own. Which is something I would not suggest above runnign squee and wonder. Rafiq is a I win now or a turn later card if you got a beater in play and perhaps a wonder in the grave. But as a topdeck he's also quite the gameswinger.

And thnx to the cantrip package this deck can easility find a counter or another survival to start the CA again. And if you serious have trouble run witness indeed.

Also the loyal retainer situation vs gobbo's. Man if goblins gave you the time to land survival and start tutoring. Why doesn't goyf into goyf into monk into monk etc not allready win the game there. I mostly side out survival because its too slow against such aggro decks.

arebennian
11-11-2009, 07:11 AM
Also the loyal retainer situation vs gobbo's. Man if goblins gave you the time to land survival and start tutoring. Why doesn't goyf into goyf into monk into monk etc not allready win the game there. I mostly side out survival because its too slow against such aggro decks.

I know you side it out but.....
You would put it in because the goblins have haste, and can steal the game out from underyou before you drop the creatures you searched for with survival.

uprite
11-12-2009, 12:44 PM
@ moby dick, well Iona is great but she taps when she attacks against zoo and zoo does have the ability to burn her out 1 lavamancer activation + 2 burns. Granted that takes alot of precious cards from them, but usually they will have the advantage in terms of creatures. With a resolved Akroma only thing they have is the 4 x path to exile, so as long as you have a fow backup for your akroma zoo should be in a tough spot.

RWM is great as well but sometimes i find him hard to cast against goblins with their wastelands and sometimes ports (on older builds) and alot of times i don't find that a RWM wins games against goblins. Like arebennian states goblins can win a game in one turn easily with SGC and chieftans

I am going to play this Saturday and see how I can tweak the deck, it's been handling pretty well against zoo and goblins with the quick win solution from Akroma, I was using 2 Cliques before Akroma+Retainer but thats really only good against control/combo which I don't see too much of so I am thinking of throwing it to S.B

Jak
11-12-2009, 05:48 PM
@ moby dick, well Iona is great but she taps when she attacks against zoo and zoo does have the ability to burn her out 1 lavamancer activation + 2 burns. Granted that takes alot of precious cards from them, but usually they will have the advantage in terms of creatures. With a resolved Akroma only thing they have is the 4 x path to exile, so as long as you have a fow backup for your akroma zoo should be in a tough spot.

If I were to ever run Loyal Retainers, Iona would be my target. It's actually good in this format. If they are wasting that much burn on your one creature, you win. Also, Sprite and Force can basically make it impossible for them to resolve 2+ burn spells on it.


RWM is great as well but sometimes i find him hard to cast against goblins with their wastelands and sometimes ports (on older builds) and alot of times i don't find that a RWM wins games against goblins. Like arebennian states goblins can win a game in one turn easily with SGC and chieftans

And getting Survival down, and then fetching Akroma, and then getting Retainers and playing it is easier? That's like 1GGG2W. Good luck.


I am going to play this Saturday and see how I can tweak the deck, it's been handling pretty well against zoo and goblins with the quick win solution from Akroma, I was using 2 Cliques before Akroma+Retainer but thats really only good against control/combo which I don't see too much of so I am thinking of throwing it to S.B

I still fail to see how a 4 turn clock coming down on turn 4 is fast.

Waikiki
11-13-2009, 04:11 AM
I know you side it out but.....
You would put it in because the goblins have haste, and can steal the game out from underyou before you drop the creatures you searched for with survival.

I Do not think I understand what your saying. Anyways my point is you should be dead before even getting survival active properly. Better to run more spotremoval en beatsticks imo.

arebennian
11-13-2009, 08:22 AM
I Do not think I understand what your saying. Anyways my point is you should be dead before even getting survival active properly. Better to run more spotremoval en beatsticks imo.

Oh come on. English is only your second language! Shame on you for not being able to decipher my statement! :wink:

I get your point and I agree (as I already noted). Still, for the sake of it.....


EXAMPLE
Goblins have 3 cards in hand with 4 mana in play.
You have Survival in play.
Empty 'Battlefield'


YOUR TURN
You are on 6 life. You untap, search for a Monk and play it. GGWU spent.

GOBLINS
Untap, Warchief, Driver, Driver.


Their haste doesn't give you as much time to search for answers. You only get 1 turn to put down prospective blockers, not two.
Granted that is a senario that is highly in the Goblins favour but you get the idea.

arebennian
11-13-2009, 08:35 AM
And getting Survival down, and then fetching Akroma, and then getting Retainers and playing it is easier? That's like 1GGG2W. Good luck.

I still fail to see how a 4 turn clock coming down on turn 4 is fast.


I think he was arguing from the position that Survival was already in play, in which case 5 mana to win the game (or steal it) isn't impossible (2GGW) whereas searching for 2 lifegaining Monks(GGGGWWUU) or GoyfWall(2GGGG) looks pretty difficult; particularly when playing around Wasteland and Port.

Turn 7 with your opponent at 12 and you with a Goyf in play that can't attack because you are on the defense turns into a turn two clock and a difficult wall for your opponent to negate.

I'm not advocating playing it, I'm just noting the senarios that are possible (not probable, possible) for which the inclusion of 2 slots may or may not be worth it. To some degree I'm just playing the Devil's advoate.

Waikiki
11-13-2009, 11:41 AM
Oh come on. English is only your second language! Shame on you for not being able to decipher my statement! :wink:

I get your point and I agree (as I already noted). Still, for the sake of it.....


EXAMPLE
Goblins have 3 cards in hand with 4 mana in play.
You have Survival in play.
Empty 'Battlefield'


YOUR TURN
You are on 6 life. You untap, search for a Monk and play it. GGWU spent.

GOBLINS
Untap, Warchief, Driver, Driver.


Their haste doesn't give you as much time to search for answers. You only get 1 turn to put down prospective blockers, not two.
Granted that is a senario that is highly in the Goblins favour but you get the idea.

In this example I would be dead thnx to pro blue. Anyways so we agree survival sux vs goblins. What are we discussing then?

uprite
11-13-2009, 03:05 PM
@ Jak it is not realy a four turn clock, even without a heiarch, people fetch lands in legacy so their life might be at 18 and in three turns they are dead. With a heiarch it's 3 turns after akroma is out even with their life at 20 and, with a heiarch in play and a creature in your hand its 2 turns since you can fetch for rafiq, but its pointless to state possible scenarios since there can be endless possibilities.

I just think its useful in situations where you have the option of ending the game quickly against decks that are able to do to surprise you (zoo goblins). It is just my personal opinion and experience with the two cards. Goyfs and RWMs are great but they tap and you can't really attack but hey everyone's playing style is different, some people like to use only cards that are useful and earn their keep and others like to have options.

I was just sharing how I like to those two cards since I saw it on moby's list but I guess you can't share your opinion without getting attacked on this forum. As well I never mentioned playing everything in one turn either but w.e I guess I was not clear enough.

toni_a_salmi
11-13-2009, 03:12 PM
Hi folks, im havent post to this thread before but now when youre talking about bant survival vs goblins I have to say few things. I played today over 15 games agains goblins and I really won only 2 of them. My deck was almost same than Waikiki's on first page with spell snares in md. This deck vs Goblins is pretty horrible. Your deck is just too slow. After sideboarding match was still horrible. I sideboarded in 2 paths, genesis, loxodon and spore fog but I never really get foglock and even you got second turn SotF you really have to hurry cause goblin are so fast. I think the best card could WoG in sideboard so you can sweep whole army of goblins.

Someone asked about Sprites...well I like that card and it nicely counters
1cc spell or sometimes maybe 2cc but how often you really have that 2 mana open? Is there any better cards to these slots? Have you any thoughts about daze in md. I think it could be good card. Surely it is nice card agains combo decks and if you have some counterwar but someone said this decks playing stradegy is little diffirent or something...Have you thought about that this deck could be better if you make build to more aggro than just thinking good cards atound of SotF? If you play first turn noble with fetch and second turn goofie or monk...I think daze in hand for backup is nice isnt it?
When you have a LotF on table, use it and play some thread daze shines again. I havent play this deck so long but when you play aggro style versus control with sprites and snares in your hand..you wont win so surely. If 30% of your deck is creatures I think the free counters are those cards you really hope having in your hand when you wanna play thread.

Waikiki
11-13-2009, 04:49 PM
In my sb I actually side out survivals, wonder and squee and I side in 3 path to exile, 1 rhox war monk and 2 jitte. I haven't found the matchup to be that bad. Just play the aggro roll. Cause lategame they will overpower you with beaters.

majikal
11-13-2009, 06:18 PM
Hi folks, im havent post to this thread before but now when youre talking about bant survival vs goblins I have to say few things. I played today over 15 games agains goblins and I really won only 2 of them. My deck was almost same than Waikiki's on first page with spell snares in md. This deck vs Goblins is pretty horrible. Your deck is just too slow. After sideboarding match was still horrible. I sideboarded in 2 paths, genesis, loxodon and spore fog but I never really get foglock and even you got second turn SotF you really have to hurry cause goblin are so fast. I think the best card could WoG in sideboard so you can sweep whole army of goblins.

Someone asked about Sprites...well I like that card and it nicely counters
1cc spell or sometimes maybe 2cc but how often you really have that 2 mana open? Is there any better cards to these slots? Have you any thoughts about daze in md. I think it could be good card. Surely it is nice card agains combo decks and if you have some counterwar but someone said this decks playing stradegy is little diffirent or something...Have you thought about that this deck could be better if you make build to more aggro than just thinking good cards atound of SotF? If you play first turn noble with fetch and second turn goofie or monk...I think daze in hand for backup is nice isnt it?
When you have a LotF on table, use it and play some thread daze shines again. I havent play this deck so long but when you play aggro style versus control with sprites and snares in your hand..you wont win so surely. If 30% of your deck is creatures I think the free counters are those cards you really hope having in your hand when you wanna play thread.

1) The list you're playing is outdated.

2) You're not sideboarding properly. Goblins are too fast for Survival to be good against them. You need to side it out for more threats and answers.

arebennian
11-13-2009, 06:53 PM
In this example I would be dead thnx to pro blue. Anyways so we agree survival sux vs goblins. What are we discussing then?



Also the loyal retainer situation vs gobbo's. Man if goblins gave you the time to land survival and start tutoring. Why doesn't goyf into goyf into monk into monk etc not allready win the game there. I mostly side out survival because its too slow against such aggro decks.

It might be inane to point this out but this was the original message I was responding to. You noted:

'Why doesn't goyf into goyf into monk into monk etc not allready win the game there.'

And I noted that it might not 'win the game there' because of the goblins ability to explode (thanks to Haste) and Bant Survival's inability to put down enough blockers quickly enough (which is the reason I imagine you side it out in the first place).
In my original message I made note that I realised you sided Survival out, but still made the point to emphasise just searching for creatures and putting them out may not be as effective as the plan uprite put forward.

Waikiki
11-14-2009, 04:02 AM
Sure goblins can explode and you just lose. But my point is that you'll win when giving them so much pressure with point removal and the additional beaters that they will be force in blocking.

Can we drop this now?

Windux
11-17-2009, 11:09 AM
I played 2 tournaments this weekend with the following list:

// Lands
4 [R] Tropical Island
2 [R] Savannah
1 [GUR] Island
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [GUR] Plains
2 [GUR] Forest

// Creatures
4 [CNF] Noble Hierarch
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [JU] Wonder
1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
3 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
1 [P3] Loyal Retainers
1 [ALA] Rafiq of the Many
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [10E] Squee, Goblin Nabob
2 [ALA] Rhox War Monk

// Spells
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [LRW] Ponder
3 [DIS] Spell Snare

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
SB: 1 [JU] Genesis
SB: 1 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 3 [CNF] Path to Exile

[B]Non-Usual Slots:
Iona + Retainer: I liked the combo at the tournaments. Even if I didn't used it that often, it won me 3-4 games I wouldn't have won otherwise.
The two slots it takes doesn't bother me much.
I cutted the Quirion Ranger and Survival for it, since AggroLoam isn't played that much anymore in my area.
Ranger isn't needed since you can just tutor u your combo instead.
1 Top, 2 Ponder: I wanted to play more Tops, but that would just be bad. The blue-count is very low in my build. 1 Top seemed to be good, since the blue-count is still ok. Ponder is very useful, but in the lategame Top is just better. With the 1-off Top it is very rare to draw it early.
3 Survival: With Top, Ponder and Brainstorm you usually find the survival. Also, with Iona it isn't that hard, if your opponent destroys it. Against decks that board Grips against us, you can just drop it and survival twice for the combo and win anyway or just search 2 Goyfs etc.

Genesis wasn't needed in any game. I didn't play against Heavy-Control decks.
Spell Pierce instead was a monster-house.
It won me games against combo and Enchantress.

Here is how I played with the deck (Iserlohn Saturday, 82 players + Top8 Playouts - Prices 1st 10 limited Duals, 2nd 8 U-Duals WB, 3rd 4 limited DUals, 16th 2 Duals)
Round 1: Smallpox/Loam
0-2
Sinkhole, Smallpox, Wasteland+Loam, Vindicate, Innocent Blood is just a disaster ;)

Round 2: Bye
Round 3-7: Win (Enchantress, Surviving Bant (Path rocked this game for me),
So 6-1 for me, giving me the first place after swiss.

Top8:
Top4: Smalpox (See Round 1, just another person with 2-3 other cards)
Play for 3rd: Canadian Thresh 2-0 without any problems.

Day 2 (just 38 players because of Dutch legacy Champs at the same time):
Round 1: Sligh/Burn 2-0 thanks to RWM
Round 2: Loam/wb 2-0 Game 1 thanks to Iona on green (against his Maelstrom pulse), Game 2 thanks to 7 Sowrd-effects gainst his 8 Creatures, leaving his lonely Witness against me (me 11 Life, he 5 Librarycards) :D
Round 3: ANT Game 1 I beat him, Game 2 he just makes a badplay (Burning Wish on Tendrils for 22, with me having turn 2 Rhox online at beating him twice), instead of Wish on Tutor on Tutor on Tendrils.
he loses in his upkeep, since he pacted his pact, which pacted Cabal Ritual to give him Threshold ;)
Round 4: Surviving Bant (same plyers as day1): 2-1 Close games, but he didn't had Path in his sideboard, but me having 2 drawn, making his Jitte useless :D
Round 5: ANT - Game 1 Hierarch, Hierarch, 2 Goyf race him
Game 2 - He duress me round 2 and I show him a hand full of Spell pierce, Spell Snare, Force,Goyf, Goyf, Teeg and another spell. He takes force and I draw the 2nd land from the Ponder I played before. Win ;)
Round 6: Merfolk (mono-U) ID but played it 2-1 thanks to 4 Swords and 3 Path ;)
6-0-1 at all for the first.

Waikiki
11-17-2009, 11:51 AM
you list is pretty similar to mine. I like your board.
How did you board with matches you needed spell snare for, what went out?

Situtions Iona won you the game survival normally wouldn't not. Could you describe the situation please.

Windux
11-18-2009, 09:43 AM
you list is pretty similar to mine. I like your board.
How did you board with matches you needed spell snare for, what went out?

Situtions Iona won you the game survival normally wouldn't not. Could you describe the situation please.
Enchantress Preboard you just have 2 Pridemage and counter against Replenish, O.Ring, Sterling Grove, Confinement etc.

LoamControl usually wins too, ANT Preboard is very hard and a resolved Iona is better/faster than a Tarmogoyf

Etc.

sco0ter
11-18-2009, 10:34 AM
Congrats on your finish!
A few questions:



Spell Pierce instead was a monster-house.


How did Spell Snare played out? Wouldn't it had been better, if you cut a Spell Snare instead of a Survival?
Last time I played them, I played 2 and even 2 were too much for my taste.

Is Spell Pierce worth MD slots (instead of Snare) then?

Your blue count is 21. Do seriously worry, it is too low? I'd still play FoW with only 17.

Windux
11-18-2009, 12:11 PM
Congrats on your finish!
A few questions:



How did Spell Snare played out? Wouldn't it had been better, if you cut a Spell Snare instead of a Survival?
Last time I played them, I played 2 and even 2 were too much for my taste.

Is Spell Pierce worth MD slots (instead of Snare) then?

Your blue count is 21. Do seriously worry, it is too low? I'd still play FoW with only 17.
If you consider, that Rafiq, Wonder and Trygon are no Pitchcards (because you often need them), you have 18 - the one Force you play.

Spell Snare is very useful. I cutted 1 Survival because I just need 3 and not he full playset. For me there is no disscusion why to play the Survival nr.4 (that's just my opinion).

But Spell pierce instead is just too situational. I boarded it in against some decks and often boarded out 1-2 Spell Snares for it, but to put counter into the MD, which simply doesn't counter creatures seems bad.

Kuma
11-30-2009, 02:55 PM
I've been playing this for a couple of weeks, and I think I have the experience to make intelligent commentary on the deck.

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ZEN] Plains (1)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [A] Tropical Island
2 [A] Savannah
2 [ZEN] Forest (3)
1 [ZEN] Island (3)
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [A] Tundra

// Creatures
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
1 [ALA] Rafiq of the Many
1 [JU] Wonder
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
3 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [BOK] Kira, Great Glass-Spinner

// Spells
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 1 [FD] Silent Arbiter
SB: 3 [DIS] Spell Snare
SB: 1 [JU] Genesis
SB: 1 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
SB: 1 [DIS] Loaming Shaman


18 lands isn't enough. The deck can function on 18 lands, but it runs much better with 20. When I ran 18, I almost always wanted more mana. With 20, I occasionally have too much mana, but that's much better than too little. Mulligans also dramatically decreased.
Spellstutter Sprite is awful unless you're playing against Zoo, Burn, Combo, Dreadstill, or any other deck with a very low mana curve. It's too hard to keep mana open for Sprite when there are so many other things the deck wants to do with its mana. I lost count of how many times I sat there with a Sprite in hand while my opponent cast spells that cost two or three mana. It's hard to get enough mana to cast a creature and have the mana open to protect it with Sprites. Without Survival to get multiple copies, Sprite is easily the worst card in the deck. If my metagame wasn't full of Zoo, Burn, and Combo right now, I'd run only one in the 75.
The Sower of Temptation in my board hasn't been great for me, but that could be because of my metagame. I haven't really gotten the chance to test the Silent Arbiter either. Glen Elendra Archmage has been fantastic against board control, and could be relevant in the combo matchup. I haven't had the chance to test Loaming Shaman against Dredge and Loam yet, but it should be solid.

Windux
11-30-2009, 03:10 PM
Loaming Shaman: I like the card, but what about running 2 Faerie Maccabre/1Genesis,1 Maccabre (both costs 2G to "Cast").
I do play 1 MAccabre and planning to play 2-3 in the board (over Crypt).

Glen Archmage against combo: He/She costs 4 to cast plus U to counter the first spell. I would play a Meddling Mage or Cannonist instead to have 4 solid creatures against combo in the cc2 slot (along with Gaddock Teeg).

Against which deck is the Silent Arbiter?

Mictlantecuhtli
11-30-2009, 04:14 PM
I'm testing this deck for the first time and i'm liking it so far.



18 lands isn't enough. The deck can function on 18 lands, but it runs much better with 20. When I ran 18, I almost always wanted more mana. With 20, I occasionally have too much mana, but that's much better than too little. Mulligans also dramatically decreased.


I think this is the reason why Horizon Canopy has been included in most Zoo manabases. I remember a post by one of the Hatfields explaining that Canopy lets you increase the land count while reducing the risk of mana flooding. I'm currently testing 20 lands with 2 Horizon Canopy instead of one Savannah and the 9th fetchland from Kuma's list, and it's been quite good so far (of course these numbers are open to further tunning - just throwing the idea).

mercs
11-30-2009, 05:50 PM
If you consider, that Rafiq, Wonder and Trygon are no Pitchcards (because you often need them), you have 18 - the one Force you play.

Spell Snare is very useful. I cutted 1 Survival because I just need 3 and not he full playset. For me there is no disscusion why to play the Survival nr.4 (that's just my opinion).

But Spell pierce instead is just too situational. I boarded it in against some decks and often boarded out 1-2 Spell Snares for it, but to put counter into the MD, which simply doesn't counter creatures seems bad.

Do you guys feel that wonder is really that vital?

I feel it's a great card, but it's no unpitchable. What do you guys think?
also, i feel in some cases, trgon can meet the fow too.

Windux
12-01-2009, 12:33 AM
Of course this cards CAN be pitched.
For example Trygon Predator against Burn or Wonder against combo.
But I mean in general, you should always have a look after the cards for FoW and not just think "18 blue cards - perfect!" while X of them are cards you won't pitch.

Kuma
12-01-2009, 12:41 PM
Loaming Shaman: I like the card, but what about running 2 Faerie Maccabre/1Genesis,1 Maccabre (both costs 2G to "Cast").
I do play 1 MAccabre and planning to play 2-3 in the board (over Crypt).

Glen Archmage against combo: He/She costs 4 to cast plus U to counter the first spell. I would play a Meddling Mage or Cannonist instead to have 4 solid creatures against combo in the cc2 slot (along with Gaddock Teeg).

Against which deck is the Silent Arbiter?

I haven't tested Loaming Shaman or Faerie Macabre. Macabre seems good because you can do it at instant speed to foil their plans, but it only hits two cards. I'll have to test both.

I said Glen Elendra Archmage could be relevant in the combo matchup. I didn't say it would be. If you're playing against non-Belcher combo, they'll probably want to get a Chant before they try to combo, potentially leaving you time to cast Archmage. In all likelihood, Archmage will be useless against combo, but I still probably side it in. The real reason I run it is for Stax/Landstill/Train Wreck.

Silent Arbiter is for Goblins/Ichorid/Belcher.


I think this is the reason why Horizon Canopy has been included in most Zoo manabases. I remember a post by one of the Hatfields explaining that Canopy lets you increase the land count while reducing the risk of mana flooding. I'm currently testing 20 lands with 2 Horizon Canopy instead of one Savannah and the 9th fetchland from Kuma's list, and it's been quite good so far (of course these numbers are open to further tunning - just throwing the idea).

I like the idea. The only issues I can see is that they aren't fetchable, and that most of the time I'm not going to sacrifice them since I need the mana. I'll probably test these too.

godryk
12-05-2009, 08:27 AM
I'm reconsidering this deck for GP Madrid and I'd like to ask you some things, specially to Waikiki and Jak.

- What are your feelings about Spell Snare? The card has stopped being as popular as it used to be, but I'm considering it may be useful for a GP metagame...

- What are your thoughts about the matchup against fast aggro like Naya Burn? I found the matchup a little bit weak (although I don't have enough experience with the deck to make solid statements), and considering it's one of the most popular decks in Spain/Europe, I think this matchup should be solid preboard.

Waikiki
12-05-2009, 12:40 PM
I think spell snare is one of those meta slots. You could easily shift it for more cantrips/Beaters or anything that suits you.

Imo zoo is a pretty good matchup. Rhox war monk is a pain in the ass for them. Also spellstutter sprite becomes mostly a hardcounter. Together with 3 sideboard path and additional war monks its pretty favored. You could also run some jittes between main and side if you expect alot of aggro decks.

Pre board I rather face zoo than merfolk.

Since im attending madrid aswell. I will probably bring this deck with me aswell. If I decide to play it depends on the meta I expect. The deck really has a doable matchup vs alot of archetypes. But none are really a bye. Making the correct plays is very very important. But Ye still haven't made any results lower then 9th place with the deck (all 40+ tournaments)

Jak
12-06-2009, 10:30 PM
I'm reconsidering this deck for GP Madrid and I'd like to ask you some things, specially to Waikiki and Jak.

- What are your feelings about Spell Snare? The card has stopped being as popular as it used to be, but I'm considering it may be useful for a GP metagame...

- What are your thoughts about the matchup against fast aggro like Naya Burn? I found the matchup a little bit weak (although I don't have enough experience with the deck to make solid statements), and considering it's one of the most popular decks in Spain/Europe, I think this matchup should be solid preboard.

I still like Spell Snare. It still hits plenty of things like Goyf, Pridemage, Standstill, EE (@2 which is what decks should play it as against us), Counterspell, Sylvan Library, Lord of Atlantis, etc. Now, I might not run it depending on what could be there. If you can meta game well, then maybe playing Jittes main if you see lots of Zoo or Tribal etc. It's a MD card to handle a lot of things.

Rhox War Monk. Play 4 main if you see it that much. I would also run 8 Swords between main and side. Having 1 mana answers to their 1 mana threats is what you need most of the time to take advantage. You might also want to test some Kitchen Finks in the board. 2 life, kill Nacatl, 2 life, and then chump is pretty good.

dragon7284
12-14-2009, 08:11 PM
I've been playing this deck for a month now... and won 4 straight tournaments with it. They aren't large tournaments by any means, ranging anywhere from 8-15 people usually, but it's a very solid deck. My meta consists of Merfolk, Landstill, Reanimator, Zoo, a solid LD control deck, and a couple rogue decks. Here's my exact list

3x Survival of the Fittest
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
4x Force of Will
3x Spell Pierce
3x Swords to Plowshares
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Rhox War Monk
3x Qasali Pridemage
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Wonder
1x Genesis
1x Sower of Temptation
1x Glen Elendra Archmage
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob
1x Rafiq of the Many
1x Vendilion Clique
4x Flooded Strand
4x Windswept Heath
4x Tropical Island
3x Savannah
1x Tundra
1x Forest
1x Island

SB
3x Path to Exile
1x Swords to Plowshares
3x Treetop Village
3x Spell Snare
2x Pithing Needle
3x Life from the Loam

I tried the Spellsutter Sprites for awhile, they just weren't cutting it for me. I almost always didn't want them in my hand and usually just used them as FoW fodder or to survival with. Any feedback would be much appreciated :)

Waikiki
12-16-2009, 08:44 AM
Spellstutter is a preference I think. I really like them they suit my playstyle alot. Drop a bomb and react on what the opponent does.

I do got some questions for your deck.

3 swords?

sb:
treetop/loam plan? whats up with that?

dragon7284
12-16-2009, 07:19 PM
Yeah, I've been running 3 for awhile, but I've been toying with the idea of moving the Archmage to the board (or completely) and putting the 4th one in. It's probably a good idea, I might try it at next weeks tournament...

As far as the SB plan, its pretty much a meta choice. A triple exalted treetop can be absolutely backbreaking for landstill, which is probably my toughest matchup where I play. The LftL helps against the LD control and against Wasteland recursion since this deck runs so few mana sources. The other decks I pretty much wreck house and don't need to worry about siding much aside from the Paths. Anything you think might work better against those decks? Thanks!

Waikiki
12-17-2009, 02:59 AM
against landstill I run spell pierce and gaddock teeg on the sideboard, teeg stops every bomb they got against you (explosives, elspeth, moat, wrath of god and force of will) also I can easily protect him with the pierce, or spellstutters.

Vs land destruction cards Ive been using is scryb ranger, It serves a multi purpose to gain combat tricks or actually gain mana when having a hierarch in play. And not to be missed it helps spellstutter sprite ;)

Waikiki
12-23-2009, 07:43 AM
As a reference this is the list Im currently running:

// Lands
1 [P3] Plains (3)
1 [P3] Forest (2)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [A] Tropical Island
3 [A] Savannah
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [P3] Island (1)

// Creatures
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [ALA] Rafiq of the Many
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
2 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
3 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
1 [P3] Loyal Retainers
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria

// Spells
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
3 [LRW] Ponder
3 [DIS] Spell Snare

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 [JU] Genesis
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [TSP] Scryb Ranger
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [BOK] Kira, Great Glass-Spinner

I've added the iona/loyal trick to test it out. Im not sure how great the impact of the cards are yet but I will hope to find out on an upcoming tourney.

Jak
12-27-2009, 07:11 AM
Bant Survival is now an archetype/deck listed on deckcheck.net

Julian23
12-27-2009, 07:42 AM
In my experience there are 4 very distinguishable variants of Survival:

- FEB
- Survival Advantage (all that Rofellos, Quirion Ranger, Anger, drop 4 Goyf stuff)
- RecSurvival (in a Rock shell with Deeds, very slow control deck)
- BantSurvival

but I guess it's like with all these CB-Top and Thresh variants, we can't have a thread for each of them. It's sad, because I would really like to discuss Wuascht Survival (http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?deck=Wuascht+Survival) without other people always bringing up stuff that doesn't belong in heavy control deck.

sco0ter
12-27-2009, 08:11 AM
- FEB
- Survival Advantage (all that Rofellos, Quirion Ranger, Anger, drop 4 Goyf stuff)
- RecSurvival (in a Rock shell with Deeds, very slow control deck)
- BantSurvival

+ Welder Survival
+ ATS

:wink:

Julian23
12-27-2009, 08:47 AM
+ Welder Survival
+ ATS

:wink:

Well, I was talking about decks showing up in Top8 lists at least every now and then. Guess I should have been more specific about that. Although this means kicking out FEB as well.

Philipp2293
12-27-2009, 09:16 AM
FEB recently showed a top 8 in a recent french tournament. But from the listed ones, it's the most obscure.

sco0ter
12-27-2009, 10:07 AM
FEB recently showed a top 8 in a recent french tournament. But from the listed ones, it's the most obscure.

Alexandre Blanchard (the FEB player) told me, he did Top8 even three times in large French events during the last few months. But those event aren't listed on deckcheck.net though.

Waikiki
12-27-2009, 03:07 PM
I ended first after swiss with bant survival last tournament Splitting T4

Report: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=413236#post413236

godryk
12-27-2009, 06:02 PM
First of all, grats on your finish!

However, I must ask you to speak in more detail about the Retainer+Iona combo package, as you would've asked to anyone running it.

Is there a reason for running it other than pure curiosity?
Does it improve any matchup?

I may find it interesting and I will definitely be testing it, but I'd like to hear a little bit reasoning from one of the deck's "creators". :wink:

Illissius
12-27-2009, 06:43 PM
I think he was arguing from the position that Survival was already in play, in which case 5 mana to win the game (or steal it) isn't impossible (2GGW) whereas searching for 2 lifegaining Monks(GGGGWWUU) or GoyfWall(2GGGG) looks pretty difficult; particularly when playing around Wasteland and Port.


Indeed, for 3GGGW you don't get only Iona; you get Iona and Survival. Tarmogoyf looks like a bad card too when you count it as costing 2GGG (Survival + activate + Goyf).

Waikiki
12-28-2009, 02:07 AM
First of all, grats on your finish!

However, I must ask you to speak in more detail about the Retainer+Iona combo package, as you would've asked to anyone running it.

Is there a reason for running it other than pure curiosity?
Does it improve any matchup?

I may find it interesting and I will definitely be testing it, but I'd like to hear a little bit reasoning from one of the deck's "creators". :wink:


I chose to ran iona out of pure curiosity. First of I thought mehhh another slot thats dead in my starting hand. So I went out and test it.

It won me the game against landstill which I would not have won without because He had an active elspeth and jace. Iona on white cuts of all of his removal so I had the chance of one lethal swing with iona (and some help of next turn rafiq) Before I'd be death.

Vs merfolk it helped me stabelize things because his counters become useless and again iona with a next turn rafiq often swing for the win.

Against aggro loam I also recovered thnx to iona shutting down all of his outs while a next turn rafiq made her swing for 20.

So in all iona gives you alot of protection and recovery power and also is able to end the game in 1 or perhaps 2 turns if the opponent does not have any fliers.

I have not tried Iona vs other decks yet.

Jak
12-29-2009, 05:49 AM
I am definitely fitting in graveyard hate into my SB. I had some close games against Ichorid on Sunday that would have turned out different had I had some way to get rid of his GY.

The deck did play well against Tempo Thresh. I got my basics and never over extended my one toughness dudes into Fire/Ice.

I really don't have thoughts on Iona/Retainers because I haven't tested it, but I just wonder if it is better than Natural Order. The big plus for NO is that it is another "I win" card outside of Survival. It is at least 2 more slots though.

Waikiki
12-29-2009, 06:46 AM
I think the 2 slots are very very important.

crow_mw
12-29-2009, 07:59 AM
On top of adding more non-blue non-creature cards to the deck. Even in last tournament report by Waikiki there was a situation in which he needed to topdeck a creature to win the game.

Waikiki
12-29-2009, 10:47 AM
Indeed,

atm I considder dropping spell snare for more beaters and replacing a savannah for an additional forest.

Jak
12-29-2009, 04:20 PM
On top of adding more non-blue non-creature cards to the deck. Even in last tournament report by Waikiki there was a situation in which he needed to topdeck a creature to win the game.

Natural Order would go in place of Spell Snare. My decklist also has been running a high creature count of 23.

chokin
01-08-2010, 02:04 PM
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=416900#post416900


__18 Land
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Savannah

__20
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Rhox War Monk
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Trygon Predator
1 Eternal Witness
1 Genesis
1 Squee
1 Rafiq of Many
1 Wonder
1 Kira
1 Ethersworn Canonist

__22 Other Spells
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Ponder

__SB
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Spell Pierce
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pithing Needle
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Faerie Macabre

It's about a week late for posting this, but I placed first on Jan 2nd with this list at a 36 man event.

Before you start criticizing too heavily, I suggest you read the thoughts coming from the link posted above. Yes, the tribal match was atrocious. Yes, I want more RWM. Kira/Canonist is for the hard lock against spot removal. Yes, Spell Snare could be cut to 3. And I only have 1 Savannah and 3 Tundra, so I couldn't change that, but ideally, I would have swapped the numbers.

One of the biggest shocks to me in playing this deck is that RWM is the best creature in the deck. It made the aggro match winnable in many cases, so I want to probably drop one Spell Snare for the third Monk minimum.

Rafiq is good here from what I can see. Makes RWM hit harder, which makes your life total or board position better. You can recur him with Jenny (Genesis) if he dies to Bolt.

Adding NOPro (I'm glad that the nickname is catching on :P) is possible. It helps a few matchups and doesn't afraid of anything. It also allows for you to get singletons without a Survival in play in a pinch.

The changes I've wanted to make with the deck are:
-1 Spell Snare
+1 RWM

SB:
-1 Crypt
-2 Needle
+2 Path to Exile
+1 RWM/Magus of the Moat

Feedback is appreciated, but in this post I summed up some of the things said in my link.

Wargoos
01-08-2010, 04:49 PM
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=416900#post416900


__18 Land
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Savannah

__20
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Rhox War Monk
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Trygon Predator
1 Eternal Witness
1 Genesis
1 Squee
1 Rafiq of Many
1 Wonder
1 Kira
1 Ethersworn Canonist

__22 Other Spells
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Ponder

__SB
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Spell Pierce
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pithing Needle
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Faerie Macabre

It's about a week late for posting this, but I placed first on Jan 2nd with this list at a 36 man event.

Before you start criticizing too heavily, I suggest you read the thoughts coming from the link posted above. Yes, the tribal match was atrocious. Yes, I want more RWM. Kira/Canonist is for the hard lock against spot removal. Yes, Spell Snare could be cut to 3. And I only have 1 Savannah and 3 Tundra, so I couldn't change that, but ideally, I would have swapped the numbers.

One of the biggest shocks to me in playing this deck is that RWM is the best creature in the deck. It made the aggro match winnable in many cases, so I want to probably drop one Spell Snare for the third Monk minimum.

Rafiq is good here from what I can see. Makes RWM hit harder, which makes your life total or board position better. You can recur him with Jenny (Genesis) if he dies to Bolt.

Adding NOPro (I'm glad that the nickname is catching on :P) is possible. It helps a few matchups and doesn't afraid of anything. It also allows for you to get singletons without a Survival in play in a pinch.

The changes I've wanted to make with the deck are:
-1 Spell Snare
+1 RWM

SB:
-1 Crypt
-2 Needle
+2 Path to Exile
+1 RWM/Magus of the Moat

Feedback is appreciated, but in this post I summed up some of the things said in my link.

Gratz for the finish, I really dig your list but aren't that convinced on the Kira/Canonist combo. It look's like Kira already shuts down the removal by himself and they still have to trade 2 for 1 against you which lets Canonist appear a bit of a overkill. But thats just an impression I have to test it first.

@ Thread:
Did some1 test Loaming Shaman in the sb?
I loved that thing in RGBSA.

MSC
01-08-2010, 06:19 PM
Did some1 test Loaming Shaman in the sb?
I loved that thing in RGBSA.

I tested a little, what to play as additional Graveyard-Hate. I think a Jtun Grunt between Main and Side helps a lot.
I play him now in the Wonder Slot Main, cause Wonder doesn't help me very often and there are a lot of Matchups, where you want Maindeck Gravehate..

Waikiki
01-09-2010, 03:45 AM
@Chokin

Plz try to get those savannah you only need 2
Try:

2 forest
1 island
1 plains
8 fetch
4 trop
2 savannah

@No faeries, Did you test the spellstutters and could explain why you chose not to run these. I love the stp protection they give me and the ability to counter nasty things like top or even start a chain with survival out.

@NOpro, What matchup does it actually improve? I considdered adding it to the sb but it seemed not to do enough at the time.

@grave hate md, I would opt to run a jotun grunt instead of the genesis. It can recur your own creatures to survival back out again and can annoy the grave of your opponent. Myself have chosen to not run any grave hate since we only see like 2 dredge players a tournament and I dont feel I've got a bad mu against loam decks.

@Kira/canon, I feel kira can be strong in a very spotremoval meta with alot of rock decks and burn decks. I just think adding canon with it is a little overkill. He is only good on its own vs combo but not any other matchup. So without survival he will just be a grizzle in bear in alot of times. I'd prefer teeg over him since that is also a bomb vs landstill and stax decks. Also a single meddling mage can be devastating vs decks that need a loam to keep up their engine. I understand with canon + kira they can never spotremoval you again. But which deck can have soo many removal a survival player cant keep up dumping out creatures when they have to 2for1 first to kill smt (kira out). I'd simply remove canon from the md. (faeries could even counter the 2nd bolt/stp)


Reference: my sb

SB: 1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk (aggro,burn,when I need more beaters)
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip (CB and if I see humility)
SB: 2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg (landstill,stax,combo)
SB: 1 [JU] Genesis (control)
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile (aggro/tribal)
SB: 1 [TSP] Scryb Ranger (tempo decks)
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce (controll/combo)
SB: 1 [PS] Meddling Mage (loam and when needed more beaters)
SB: 1 [BOK] Kira, Great Glass-Spinner (spot removal and when I need more beaters also kira+teeg wins the LS matchup)

chokin
01-09-2010, 05:12 AM
Yes, I said somewhere in the Report that I only had 1 Savannah and 3 Tundra. I would have preferred 3 Savannah, 1 Tundra.

Fairies. I'd be willing to try again. I just didn't like them.

NOPro. It's mediocre. It was an idea.

I don't like MD grave hate. If I were to run any, it would be Loaming Shaman. I like that he's big and resets shit. Macabre is another good option, but is only really strong with Jenny. I like Jenny main. It's just harder to keep up with that upkeep effect without Rofellos backing you up.

Kira/Canonist - I like Kira. I'm still on the fence about Canonist. Canonist against aggro when you have a Survival down means that you're able to just drop better quality creatures. Against control, it's a double edged sword. Combo it rapes. I think Kira is enough though for removal protection.

I think the board needs 3 Grips. I know there's MD artifact/enchantment hate but 3 is where I feel comfortable when Humility comes into play. Having 2 feels too random even with cantrips and Survival filter. Personal preference.

I really wanna squeeze in Iona/LR combo.

Kuma
01-09-2010, 10:58 AM
I tested a little, what to play as additional Graveyard-Hate. I think a Jtun Grunt between Main and Side helps a lot.

I've been looking for an extra piece of graveyard hate for my sideboard, and Jotun Grunt seems excellent.


@No faeries, Did you test the spellstutters and could explain why you chose not to run these. I love the stp protection they give me and the ability to counter nasty things like top or even start a chain with survival out.

I know you're not talking to me, but I've found Spellstutter Sprites to be awful in most matchups. StP protection seems unnecessary when you can just use Survival to get more creatures. Kira and Loyal Retainers/Iona also make this redundant.

Countering SDT is a pipe dream. Maybe if they find their first Top in the midgame, but most Tops are played turn one before Sprite can be played.

As for starting a chain with Survival out, this has worked better in theory than in practice. Most decks don't run many relevant one-CCs, which forces you to try to start a chain with a Vendilion Clique or to waste a Spellstutter Sprite so you can counter two-CCs.

Even if you can start a chain, that's incredibly mana intensive in a mana hungry deck. In order to play a relevant threat and have a Spellstutter Sprite to protect it, you need to have a minimum of four mana. Most of the time you'll need five or six since you'll have to use Survival to find the Sprites and/or the threat.

Right now I'm running one Sprite in the main and two in the board, and I'm probably going to cut them all-together.

My play experience with Spellstutter Sprite has been that they usually sit in my hand uncast while my opponent plays things that cost 2+ mana.


@@NOpro, What matchup does it actually improve? I considdered adding it to the sb but it seemed not to do enough at the time.

In limited testing, NOPro wasn't worth it. Either I already had the game pretty well locked up with Survival, or I didn't have countermagic to protect it. It also hurts the blue card count and adds another dead draw to a deck full of dead draws. Then again, it was amazing in a few games and gives the deck even more must counter cards. Further testing may be warranted.

MSC
01-09-2010, 11:10 AM
Right now I'm running one Sprite in the main and two in the board, and I'm probably going to cut them all-together.

My play experience with Spellstutter Sprite has been that they usually sit in my hand uncast while my opponent plays things that cost 2+ mana.

Just my thoughts. I have cut Spellstutter-Sprites and Spell-Snares a while back and never looked back. Going more aggro (and having more good Creatures to do so) has won me more games than having the abillity to counter that one Sword or Goyf...

Waikiki
01-09-2010, 11:37 AM
I keep considdering cutting the faeries but each time I run the deck in a tournament they win me the game.

Countering stp is pretty relevent when survival is not out. also it counters almost anything in the zoo matchup.

I do agree I would like to make the deck more aggressive.

I hope the new set will give us some more goodies to work with.

Wargoos
01-09-2010, 12:14 PM
While grunt is a neat card for an aggro-variant of this deck (no sprites etc.) I do not consider it to be a graveyard hate card.
Against dredge the drawback takes often too long and led dredge will just play and leave the grunt unconsidered.
At least for me grunt did not work against dredge.

Kuma
01-09-2010, 12:56 PM
I keep considdering cutting the faeries but each time I run the deck in a tournament they win me the game.

Your most recent tournament report shows you winning exactly zero games with Spellstutter Sprite, unless you count that game where you played one in response to Standstill. I don't count that game because your opponent was at four, you were at eighteen, he had only the Standstill in hand, and any other creature would have been just as good or better.


Countering stp is pretty relevent when survival is not out.

It's a tempo play, sure, but you need tons of mana in order to play a threat and immidiately protect it. It's impossible to play threats early and have the mana to protect them. By the mid-game you probably have Survival anyway and you can just get more threats.


also it counters almost anything in the zoo matchup.

True. Zoo is one of the few matchups in which I've been pleased with Spellstutter Sprite.


I do agree I would like to make the deck more aggressive.

Running Spellstutter Sprite seems antithetical to this.


I hope the new set will give us some more goodies to work with.

I think our manabase can support Leatherback Baloth. It might be worth running a few, although I doubt I'd ever search for one with Survival. I'll definitely test the Baloth once it comes out.

Waikiki
01-09-2010, 01:36 PM
Your most recent tournament report shows you winning exactly zero games with Spellstutter Sprite, unless you count that game where you played one in response to Standstill. I don't count that game because your opponent was at four, you were at eighteen, he had only the Standstill in hand, and any other creature would have been just as good or better. That play won me the game since I won with the cards standstill gave me else i'd die. Real slowly




It's a tempo play, sure, but you need tons of mana in order to play a threat and immidiately protect it. It's impossible to play threats early and have the mana to protect them. By the mid-game you probably have Survival anyway and you can just get more threats. This is true if they allready have the stp. Not if they need cantrips to find it.



Running Spellstutter Sprite seems antithetical to this.

I considder spell snare to be weaker then the faeries. So i'd cut those first. I wont more creature/spell ratio. Also stutter poo's on duress from ant players and can stop a chant aswell.



I think our manabase can support Leatherback Baloth. It might be worth running a few, although I doubt I'd ever search for one with Survival. I'll definitely test the Baloth once it comes out. That guy doesn't impress me that much. Cards I wanted to try out as of now, mongoose, cosi's trickster and mother of runes. The mongoose have allready been tried and I found them to be pretty strong. But I rather have something that could keep the blue count high.

godryk
01-09-2010, 03:08 PM
After all that discusion on Mother of the Runes in the Format Discussion forum, I started seeing her as a valid inclusion in this deck. IDK, I feel like testing her, could be a nice way toimporve our tribal matchups while as not being terrible against anything winning with creature damage.

I've also considered Magus of the Moat (as MSC suggested) after testing today against my brother's Elves. It could be decent too against Merfolks, but a 0/3 body just sucks against Zoo and Sligh decks. Maybe Silent Arbiter? IDK, I need to play more games post board and see how much I can get from PtE and maybe Jitte.

Kuma
01-09-2010, 04:12 PM
That play won me the game since I won with the cards standstill gave me else i'd die. Real slowly


I have to mull down to 5 :(. He keeps his opening 7. I manage to get some aggro on the board and he did not expect me to play blue since I didn't fetch anything blue yet. So he falls EE @2 against me which I spell snare. I get him down to 4 and he finally recovers and sweep my board. He drops standstill and I respond with spellstutter sprite (he is at 4 and im at 18). Our hands are both empty now. He does have an active jace tho. But then again he has to break his own standstill and I draw into survival. He resolves elspeth and I draw into spell snare. I resolve survival but no creatures I kick his jace -1 and I pass. He then activates his jace for +2. I draw a creature and tutor up the iona / loyal combo. He tries to counter but I had the snare.

Any creature wins you the game there, provided his board was empty as you imply it was. Since his hand was empty after playing Standstill, that implies his hand was empty on your turn. A threshed Werebear, really anything with four or more power, would have won you the game there.

You: Werebear

Him: Draw Standstill

You: Swing four

Apparently his next card was Elspeth which means any evasive creature also wins you the game. Heck, Grizzly Bears plus a topdecked Path to Exile wins you the game.

My point is even if Spellstutter Sprite won you that game, it's because it was an evasive creature, and not because of any quality unique to Spellstutter Sprite. Unless you can clarify the game situation for me...

But even if you can clear things up, if you need to be that specific to show Spellstutter Sprite's advantages, it's probably an incredibly situational card that shouldn't be more than one slot in the 75.



This is true if they allready have the stp. Not if they need cantrips to find it.

So you're always going to keep 2-3 mana open in a mana hungry deck in case they play one-CC removal?


I considder spell snare to be weaker then the faeries. So i'd cut those first. I wont more creature/spell ratio. Also stutter poo's on duress from ant players and can stop a chant aswell.

I don't like Spell Snare either, and I don't run it in my 75. And yes, Spellstutter Sprite is relevant in the ANT matchup, but aside from Zoo, ANT, and a couple of tier two decks like Dreadstill, Burn, and Sligh, Spellstutter Sprite is the worst card(s) in your deck.


That guy doesn't impress me that much.

I'm not totally thrilled with Leatherback Baloth either, but he does give us a couple more big beaters to draw if we don't get Survival active.


Cards I wanted to try out as of now, mongoose, cosi's trickster and mother of runes. The mongoose have allready been tried and I found them to be pretty strong. But I rather have something that could keep the blue count high.

I think a lot of Nimble Mongoose's usefulness is subsumed by Kira and Iona. Cosi's Trickster only gets bigger when your opponent shuffles, which makes him mediocre without Merfolk lords to pump him. We have Rhox War Monk's life gain to win the damage race, evasion from Wonder, Vendilion Clique, Trygon Predator, and Iona, and Kira and Survival to keep creatures on the board. That makes Mother of Runes fairly redundant.


I've also considered Magus of the Moat (as MSC suggested) after testing today against my brother's Elves. It could be decent too against Merfolks, but a 0/3 body just sucks against Zoo and Sligh decks. Maybe Silent Arbiter? IDK, I need to play more games post board and see how much I can get from PtE and maybe Jitte.

I run a package of 1 Silent Arbiter, 3 Propaganda for the tribal matchups. Unfortunately, I haven't run into any since I started running them, so I can't be sure how effective they are. However, running Propaganda in my Pro-Bant with CounterTop deck greatly improved the Goblins matchup, so there's hope.

chokin
01-09-2010, 04:42 PM
Propaganda against Goblins can be REBd. Ghostly Prison is in color and just as good. Just can't be pitched to Force. I don't know how big of a deal that is though.

If they're R or Rb Goblins, they have no outs to GP because they need green or white to deal with it.

MrShine
01-09-2010, 05:10 PM
The people playing Goblins in my area frequently have anarchy out of the board, which, given the RWMs, is likely to come in... It is probably less likely that one would run into it than REB but there are answers to the Prison nonetheless. In the Zoo matchup it doesnt really matter, what with Pridemages runing around everywhere so I guess it just depends on whether you want to avoid more common hate or have cards to pitch to FOW.

Kuma
01-09-2010, 06:12 PM
The Goblin lists in my area run Anarchy over REB, too. Since we're skirting the bare minimum number of blue cards to support Force of Will, I'd rather run Propaganda and take my chances with blasts.

chokin
01-09-2010, 07:44 PM
It was just a note. Forgot about Anarchy though. That pushes Propaganda up then since my logic was that it got -1 for REB/Pyro and +1 for Force. GP was -1 for non-pitch but +1 for immunity to REB/Pyro.

Anarchy makes it get another -1 in my books.

I figured for the people who are running Spellstutter, they have a better blue count for Force than say...my list.

Also, Waikiki, you say that countering STP is what's winning you games...wouldn't Kira give you the same effect as a preemptive thing? It takes 2 removal spells to remove Kira, then another to hit the other creature. That's essentially 3 STPs needed to remove the threat for 1UU vs 2 for 1U. But it doesn't stop there really. SS might have a tough time dealing with Snuff Out. Kira doesn't care what the spell costs. It cares that it's spot removal.

I'm not closing the door on SS yet though, so please don't get that impression. It's just my list felt aggressive, not reactive. Kinda like how Merfolk uses their mana effectively and then backs their stuff up with free counters. I just don't like leaving much mana open if I can help it.

Jak
01-09-2010, 07:48 PM
You guys are forgetting that Sprite is amazing against combo. It does a lit more for the deck than just stop removal.

phamtastic
01-10-2010, 02:41 AM
for goblins why not dueling grounds??? seems great since we're running a bunch of exalted. as for fow pitching...there is already quite a few. monk, daze(spell snare, whichever you prefer), brainstorm, sprite, and fow itself(which sucks when it happens). a lot of these cards also stay in after boarding with the exception of sprite and brainstorm depending on player preference.

Waikiki
01-10-2010, 04:14 AM
Any creature wins you the game there, provided his board was empty as you imply it was. Since his hand was empty after playing Standstill, that implies his hand was empty on your turn. A threshed Werebear, really anything with four or more power, would have won you the game there.

You: Werebear

Him: Draw Standstill

You: Swing four

Apparently his next card was Elspeth which means any evasive creature also wins you the game. Heck, Grizzly Bears plus a topdecked Path to Exile wins you the game.

My point is even if Spellstutter Sprite won you that game, it's because it was an evasive creature, and not because of any quality unique to Spellstutter Sprite. Unless you can clarify the game situation for me... To make things clear it is his turn and he is abusing explosives lock with academy ruins. He just returned it drew it and cast it for two killing my goyf. Then cast standstill. He also has an active jace on the board so If I didn't respond with flashing in the faerie I would die under alot of card advantage. Now he has only 4 turns to do smt about the faerie. So the flash + evasive of the faerie won me the match where a single werebear would just die an recurring explosives fate where this play drew me 3 cards and let me survival for the win.







So you're always going to keep 2-3 mana open in a mana hungry deck in case they play one-CC removal?
This is where I think my playstyle differs When I get an survival active the first thing I do is getting a thread on the table. Secondly I will just keep all my mana open to protect the guy. If my opponent does not I will simply use G to activate survival discarding squee and get another exalted dude probably hierarch cast it and swing again long enough till he's dead and my faeries counter relevant removal or he somehow manage to kill my creature which makes me get a new thread. If the faeries are not allready able to seal the deal with so many exalted triggers. I will not be keep pumping fatties each turn. [/quote]




I don't like Spell Snare either, and I don't run it in my 75. And yes, Spellstutter Sprite is relevant in the ANT matchup, but aside from Zoo, ANT, and a couple of tier two decks like Dreadstill, Burn, and Sligh, Spellstutter Sprite is the worst card(s) in your deck. In my meta the most common decks are zoo and ant.

On a sidenote I am currently testing a build without the sprites and snares just for trying out. I'm very curious how the build will feel for me.

@everybody, I do not understand why we are searching for cards to improve the aggro matchup, with my current board and md its just fine. The best u could do is add 2 jittes if your really aggro infested.

Kuma
01-11-2010, 02:49 PM
To make things clear it is his turn and he is abusing explosives lock with academy ruins. He just returned it drew it and cast it for two killing my goyf. Then cast standstill. He also has an active jace on the board so If I didn't respond with flashing in the faerie I would die under alot of card advantage. Now he has only 4 turns to do smt about the faerie. So the flash + evasive of the faerie won me the match where a single werebear would just die an recurring explosives fate where this play drew me 3 cards and let me survival for the win.

Fair enough.

Still, that's an incredibly specific situation, and you still could have won with a Vendilion Clique. I can't imagine you win lots of games like this, and as such, the usefulness of Spellstutter Sprite needs to be critically examined.

MSC
01-11-2010, 05:51 PM
For the Aggro-Matchups, I bring Malfegor from the Sideboard, instead of Iona. It's still in testing, but till now it seams valid.


Combo is a coinflip. Spell Pierce and Teegs make it fair after Boarding, but before it's just Force for loose. But I don't think, that Sprites here are really good. You need to put pressure on Combo and keeping 2 Mana open doesn't help here.

chokin
01-11-2010, 06:51 PM
I'm still not digging the Sprites. I tried them out again, and it just feels like they slow me down too much. I'm wondering if Daze might be any good. Noble keeps you up on mana anyways and it lets you drop a turn 2 RWM while still leaving combo to worry about Force and/or Daze. Hitting them for 4 even one time could hurt a storm player some because they need an extra 2 spells played and have less life to Ad Nauseum with.

Malfegor seems risky, but I guess so does my suggestion of Kuro. Dromar looks interesting. If you get an attack in, you can pretty much lock them out.

MSC
01-11-2010, 08:00 PM
We digged for every Legend we could find and decided for Malfegor, cause he does something on the spot. Yeah, normally he just kills 2 creatures from your opponent, but normally that's enough. Especially, cause he his a 6/6 himself.


Daze ist just awfull. The Deck doesn't like to take back his lands and has no form of Mana-Disruption, so Daze has no use after the early Game.
Another Point is the Demand for an Island. I normally don't start with fetching Duals, to reduce Damage from Wastelands. And it is huge to have no Island vs. Merfolk.

chokin
01-11-2010, 08:13 PM
I was just saying that free (FoW, Daze) or 1cc counters (Spell Snare, Spell Pierce) feel better than 2cc counters (Spellstutter Sprite) for putting pressure down on a combo player. I think that Daze is still semi relevant, as people will play around it more times than not. And being able to tap out on turn two and still protect yourself is kinda huge. Probably a personal preference though. Kinda like Sprites.

If I have a Noble Hierarch in hand, I'll fetch a Tropical Island. If my opponent then Wastes it, I have 1 mana on board while they have one or zero. If not, then I usually try for a basic (Forest>Island>Plains).

Kuma
01-13-2010, 11:39 AM
For the Aggro-Matchups, I bring Malfegor from the Sideboard, instead of Iona. It's still in testing, but till now it seams valid.

That's a very interesting idea. Discarding your hand seems terrible, but it might be worth it to wipe an entire board of Goblins, Merfolk, or Zoo creatures. Be sure to let us know if it continues to be worth discarding your hand.


Combo is a coinflip. Spell Pierce and Teegs make it fair after Boarding, but before it's just Force for loose. But I don't think, that Sprites here are really good. You need to put pressure on Combo and keeping 2 Mana open doesn't help here.

Gaddock Teeg is a pretty poor option against any list with Doomsday, and is too slow to affect Belcher. Ethersworn Cannonist is much more effective against combo.

You do need to put pressure on combo, but Sprites attack while slowing your opponent down. Modern combo, with the exception of Belcher, is actually a lot slower than it used to be, and Spellstutter Sprites can counter key Mystical Tutors, cantrips, and Sensei's Divining Tops.


I'm wodering if Daze might be any good. Noble keeps you up on mana anyways and it lets you drop a turn 2 RWM while still leaving combo to worry about Force and/or Daze.

I don't think we want to be returning lands to our hands in a deck this mana hungry. They might be okay against Storm, but I don't think I'd want them in any other matchup.

Enigma
01-13-2010, 01:26 PM
Just a quick note to say that Loyal Retainer/Iona is a bomb. We integrated it in a GWB Survival shell with Natural order and it made a really good performance last saturday, taking 18th place out of 82, piloted by a player that didn't test that much before going there. It killed Dredge, Zoo, Merfolk so easily! His only losts were to Counter Top.

So yeah, If I would play Survival Bant again, it would definitly be with Retainer/Iona combo.

P-M

MSC
01-13-2010, 05:53 PM
That's a very interesting idea. Discarding your hand seems terrible, but it might be worth it to wipe an entire board of Goblins, Merfolk, or Zoo creatures. Be sure to let us know if it continues to be worth discarding your hand.


I will.
Discarding your hand only seams to be bad. When you drop Malfegor, you already have a Survial on the Board, so your Handcards are mostly not needed anymore.



Gaddock Teeg is a pretty poor option against any list with Doomsday, and is too slow to affect Belcher. Ethersworn Cannonist is much more effective against combo.

Teeag still stops Tendrils against Dommsday.
Cannonist may be better against Tendrils, but Teeg helps against a much broder List of Decks. Landstill, Planeswalker.Deck and Stax, to name a few.
But i would not argue with anyone playing Cannonist in this spot...

Dark Zero
01-13-2010, 06:11 PM
Teeag still stops Tendrils against Dommsday.

Teeg alone is simply bad against Doomsday without counterbackup. The DDANT player will make a pile with bounce or destruction and go for the combo. Right beforce casting ToA he'll bounce/destroy your Teeg and in the meantime he doesn't have to fear your Forces.

Teeg alone does a shit, because the opponent still is able to sculpt his hand, while against Canonist, he is slowed down in better way.

It is true that Teeg is better against more othe decks like Stax or LS, but definitely not against combo including Doomsday.

Windux
01-14-2010, 02:36 AM
Most Doomsdaylists will board in Saughter Pact/Chain of Vapor/Deahmark.
That's the reason why I do play Teeg + Mage + Iona + Kira.

Teeg+Kira is GG, because most decks just play 1 Removal and they can't replay it in the same turn with IGG thanks to Teeg.

Teeg+Iona will mostly be GG, if the removal is black or you can name the right.

MM+Kira will be GG if they just play 1 Removal/Bounce, because they need 2 shots for Kira and 1 for MM.

MM (on the right removal)+Teeg will be GG as well, if they play just 1 Removal.

Canonist has no synergy with this.
Canonist+Teeg/MM+Kira is 1 card more and because of that also 1 turn slower.

Along with this creatures I do have 3 Spell Pierce in the side, which can give me 1-2 turns (for example when they know that I board in counters - which they will do - and want to Duress you before they combo off).

chokin
01-14-2010, 03:37 PM
Meddling Mage...I don't like. Teeg shuts off IGG, Tendrils, AN, Belcher, ETW, Dread Return, Moat, Humility, Wrath, 4cc+ Planeswalkers and so on. With Meddling Mage, I always feel like I need 2-3 to really lock them out. The only thing I like about Mage is that he can be pitched to Force of Will. I think I prefer the "catch all" feel of Teeg. I can always go for Kira to protect him too.

Survival+Canonist in a favorable or neutral board position can allow you to drop superior creatures and win. But to be fair, Iona does the same thing against mono colored decks. It's just Canonist is a little cheaper to send out. I will concede that in an unfavorable board, Canonist is not good, but Iona could be ok.

I still want to dick around with Magus of the Moat+Kira vs aggro though. I think it could be pretty powerful.

MSC
01-14-2010, 05:56 PM
I run 1 Meddling Mage Mainboard. In some Matchups he is exactly what you need. Examples are Loam (on Loam or Devastating Dreams), Combo (Ad-Nauseam, Tendrils or Dream Halls) or Icchorrid (Dread Return).

Against averything else he is a bear with a semi-relevant Abbillity or a Force-Pitch to Fetch with Survival.

Jak
01-17-2010, 05:18 PM
Just picked up a Loyal Retainer and can't wait to start playing with it. I wish there was a Legendary creature that didn't cause me to discard my hand to wipe the board.

I also have been trying out 3 Mother of Runes in place of Sprites. Better protection and great offensively. The only problem is the blue count and then trimming cards down to fit them in as well as Iona and Retainers. I am probably sticking with Kira for now. I still if I like not having Sprites.

18 Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

19 Spells
4 Survival
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares

23 Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Trygon Predator
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kira
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Squee
1 Wonder
1 Rafiq
1 Iona

SB
3 Krosan Grip
3 Back to Basics
3 Path to Exile
2 Spell Pierce
3 Gaddock Teeg
1 Rhox War Monk

majikal
01-17-2010, 06:03 PM
How is Back to Basics working out for you?

Jolly_roger
01-17-2010, 06:09 PM
Why not myojin of cleansing fire instead of malfegor?

conboy31
01-17-2010, 06:12 PM
Why not myojin of cleansing fire instead of malfegor?

Oracle text: Myojin of Cleansing Fire enters the battlefield with a divinity counter on it if you cast it from your hand.

Jak
01-17-2010, 06:13 PM
How is Back to Basics working out for you?

Pretty meh to be honest. I threw it in there to fight decks with Loam but Pithing Needles and Crypts would probably be just as good. I also should have a Sower in there because it is amazing versus Aggro Loam which I am sure I will be seeing.

3 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Path to Exile
2 Pithing Needle
2 Spell Pierce
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Genesis
1 Sower of Temptation

This is everything that rotates in and out of my sideboard. Back to Basics is a recent addition that I haven't been liking much but should still be tested because it can win games versus Landstill, 43 Land, Aggro Loam, CounterTop, etc.

Depending on what I am guessing I'll see, I trim down on the aggro hate, or the GY hate, or the combo hate.

majikal
01-17-2010, 06:21 PM
What about Root Maze?

Wargoos
01-17-2010, 06:24 PM
for goblins why not dueling grounds??? seems great since we're running a bunch of exalted. as for fow pitching...there is already quite a few. monk, daze(spell snare, whichever you prefer), brainstorm, sprite, and fow itself(which sucks when it happens). a lot of these cards also stay in after boarding with the exception of sprite and brainstorm depending on player preference.

Dueling grounds would take up more than 1 slot right?
If you have problems with goblins or merfolk or other tribal stuff, why not trying Silent Arbiter?
You can survival for it, so that you still 'll have enough space for additional, other hate.

Jak
01-17-2010, 06:32 PM
What about Root Maze?

It doesn't really address issues like Maze of Ith, Man Lands, etc. I think the best way to handle the match up is to try to slow their engine down (Loam) with Crypt. Pithing Needle or Back to Basics can stop Maze so you can attack in.

Edit- Root Maze also sucks with 8 fetches.

Waikiki
01-18-2010, 01:49 AM
Kira works pretty well vs maze of ith I guess.

I've also been trying out a build without snares and sprites. It's been doing pretty well for the little testing I've done so far.

Jak
01-18-2010, 02:09 AM
Kira works pretty well vs maze of ith I guess.

I've also been trying out a build without snares and sprites. It's been doing pretty well for the little testing I've done so far.

Do you like having that little of disruption? I still like to be able to beat combo and Spell Snare helps quite a bit. It also hits some key cards that wreck the deck (Sinkhole, Devastating Dreams, Hymn, etc).

chokin
01-18-2010, 02:09 AM
Sprites may be working out for some people, but I think I still prefer Snares. Different strokes for different folks maybe. Or maybe it's the meta for me. I tried Magus of the Moat vs Elves and it was basically a game ender. I like the 3rd RWM a lot. I just ordered a Loyal Retainer and I plan on trying that out soon.

I really don't think Sprites are bad. I just don't think they work here. I think Snare works out better for me.

Let's all keep a close eye out for some nice cards from Worldwake!

Waikiki
01-18-2010, 05:49 AM
Do you like having that little of disruption? I still like to be able to beat combo and Spell Snare helps quite a bit. It also hits some key cards that wreck the deck (Sinkhole, Devastating Dreams, Hymn, etc).

Who said I didn't add different disruption ? I must test it out first before I present the list tho.

K1LO
01-18-2010, 03:16 PM
Hi,

yesterday Ive played this deck to a 4/2/0-finish at monthly Hassloch, with around 60 attendants.

maindeck:

4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Tundra
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Daze
2 Ponder
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Rhox War Monk
2 Quasali Pridemage
2 Spellstutter Sprite
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Jtun Grunt
1 Trygon Predator
1 Wonder

sideboard:

3 Path to Exile
2 Umezawas Jitte
2 Krosan Grip
2 Spell Pierce
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Fearie Macabre
1 Jtun Grunt
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Meddling Mage
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner

Ive played against Brw Something Death (2:0), Mono U Merfolk (1:2), Bw Smallpox (2:1), Ub Tezzeret-Foundry (2:1), Zoo (2:0) and LED-less Dredge (1:2). The 3rd match against Merfolk was kind of annoying, me drawing nothing than lands against his Jitte (Ive had 6-7 outs, 13-14 if I count Swords/Path too), the 2nd match against Tezzeret Ive lost against Chalice1 turn1, Chalice2 turn2 and Chalice3 turn4 (wtf?), Ive won the 1st round against Ichorid thanks to Grunt and Iona, lost the 2nd game to his single Ray of Revelation and the 3rd to his nuts-draw.

Overall Im pretty confident with my list, especially with Daze and Grunt (I expected a lot of Loam and I was right, recurred a countered Retainer once) maindeck. The sideboard was dedicated to Merfolk and Aggro, which showed to be a pretty good call aswell. This leaves me with "only" 6 slots (Mage, Teeg, 2x Pierce, Macabre, Kira) against storm-combo, that seemed to be enough during testing as Im playing Daze too.

What Id like to discuss are my boarding-plans against Merfolk and Ichorid:

Merfolk (general):

-4 Survival
-2 Sprite
-1 Iona
-1 Squee
-1 Retainers
-1 Wonder

+3 Path
+2 Jitte
+2 Grip
+1 Monk
+2 Pierce

I expected Relics (maybe Needles) and therefore am reducing this matchup to Ather Vial and Jitte vs. my aggro-plan with answers. Of course I was right with Relic and Survival would have cost me too much speed I think, am I right with this?

Ichorid (on the play):

-1 Predator
-4 Force
-2 Quasali
-1 Clique
-2 Monk
-1 Wonder


+1 Teeg
+1 Mage
+1 Grunt
+1 Macabre
+3 Path
+2 Jitte
+2 Pierce

As Im boarding out many (6!) blue spells, I decided not to keep Force when Im on the play (this is different when Im on the draw, where I keep Force with a low blue-count: -2 Pierce, -2 Path, + 4 Force from above). Is this reasonable and what are your sb-strategies against Ichorid (besides suggestions like: "Play Spore Frog dude!")?


Greetz, K1LO

MSC
01-18-2010, 03:46 PM
Congrats to your Finish. I don't like Daze and some other things in your List, but it's hard to argue with success.

Why don't you play Rafiq.

But your boarding plans are kind of strange:
Against Meerfolk you should never board out Survival, cause they have no way to deal with a resolved one. You can board out Wonder, Sprites, Grunts, Iona und Retainers.

Against Icchorid you should always keep Forces and RWM. Sprites are relatively death in this matchup either...

K1LO
01-18-2010, 04:04 PM
Congrats to your Finish. I don't like Daze and some other things in your List, but it's hard to argue with success.

Why don't you play Rafiq.

But your boarding plans are kind of strange:
Against Meerfolk you should never board out Survival, cause they have no way to deal with a resolved one. You can board out Wonder, Sprites, Grunts, Iona und Retainers.

Against Ichorid you should always keep Forces and RWM. Sprites are relatively death in this matchup either...
I was playing storm-combo for the last years and this was the second tournament Ive played Bant-Sur in, therefore Im just not that familiar with creatures yet (just a joke!?) and maybe this explains my strange sideboarding^^.

Im totally "in love" with Daze, but thats all about preference I think. The same with Rafiq and that, in combination with Daze, he just seemed too slow to me. Monk against Ichorid also seemed a bit to slow, while Sprite may remove their Bridges or counter Study, Breakthrough, etc., but I see the point with Monk.

Therefore Ill test your sb-suggestions tomorrow, especially against Merfolk, thanks a lot man!


Greetz, K1LO

chokin
01-18-2010, 04:34 PM
First of all, good job dude. If I may comment on your sideboard:

3 Path to Exile
2 Umezawas Jitte
2 Krosan Grip
2 Spell Pierce
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Fearie Macabre
1 Jtun Grunt
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Meddling Mage
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner

It looks to me like you have a LOT of aggro hate in the form of Path to Exile, Rhox War Monk and Umezawa's Jitte. I know aggro matches can be difficult, but don't you think 6 slots is overkill? I tested Magus of the Moat last week and it was pretty awesome against Elves. I do imagine that Kira would be needed to ensure it staying in play against Merfolk with bounce and Zoo with lots of removal.

I think the one Teeg is good. Mage I'm still very iffy about. I think that one Mage won't hurt anything though (I ran one in the main recently).

I'm intrigued about your inclusion of Daze and Grunt. I personally like Daze with Noble, as it feels like you're cheating the land drop, but not everyone agreed with me. Seeing as how you liked it so much, I'll have to give it a shot. Grunt looks promising. It's a beater that recycles your stuff and hurts a grave dependent opponent.

I like your list a lot. The only changes I'd make would be to add a third Monk main, as it is probably the best creature in the deck in my opinion. I'm also not a fan of the Sprites, so I would personally drop that (just a preference of mine I suppose). My board is more tuned for my meta, but for reference, that looks like this now:

3 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Spell Pierce
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Magus of the Moat
4 Meta-Dependent Slots

Again, grats!

MSC
01-18-2010, 05:49 PM
I see your point in not playing Rafiq while playing Daze. I would suggest trying the single Meddling Mage Main. It looks weak on paper, but it's great against a lot of different Matchups, where you have problems Preboard.

How where Wonder and Grunt for you?

K1LO
01-18-2010, 06:37 PM
First of all, good job dude. If I may comment on your sideboard:

3 Path to Exile
2 Umezawas Jitte
2 Krosan Grip
2 Spell Pierce
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Fearie Macabre
1 Jtun Grunt
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Meddling Mage
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner

It looks to me like you have a LOT of aggro hate in the form of Path to Exile, Rhox War Monk and Umezawa's Jitte. I know aggro matches can be difficult, but don't you think 6 slots is overkill? I tested Magus of the Moat last week and it was pretty awesome against Elves. I do imagine that Kira would be needed to ensure it staying in play against Merfolk with bounce and Zoo with lots of removal.

I think the one Teeg is good. Mage I'm still very iffy about. I think that one Mage won't hurt anything though (I ran one in the main recently).

I'm intrigued about your inclusion of Daze and Grunt. I personally like Daze with Noble, as it feels like you're cheating the land drop, but not everyone agreed with me. Seeing as how you liked it so much, I'll have to give it a shot. Grunt looks promising. It's a beater that recycles your stuff and hurts a grave dependent opponent.

I like your list a lot. The only changes I'd make would be to add a third Monk main, as it is probably the best creature in the deck in my opinion. I'm also not a fan of the Sprites, so I would personally drop that (just a preference of mine I suppose). My board is more tuned for my meta, but for reference, that looks like this now:

3 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Spell Pierce
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Magus of the Moat
4 Meta-Dependent Slots

Again, grats!
Ive won the "easier" and lost the "harder" matchups, so there is really nothing special with my results from Hassloch^^.

The idea behind my sideboard was, to have a kind of transformational sideboard which doesnt rely too much on Survival, especially against decks that have access to Grip and Relic. I wouldnt say, that it didnt pay out.

I`ve played Mage over the 2nd Teeg, because he is not that worse and also helps against Show and Tell, which I thought some players would try out. Grunt was definately a meta-call, but he shines/shined in other matchups than Loam too, e.g. against Zoo, because of his body. I remember him winning me 3 (1x Tezzeret, 1x Zoo, 1x Ichorid) games that tournament!

Sprite is not that great, that is right, but I still like her for countering that relevant Sword or beeing a surprise blocker/attacker. I feel like 2 is the right number as I often pitch one to Force or use it with Survival, but dont have the "illusion" to counter something with cmc 2.

Yes, my sideboard is dedicated to aggro, but Id never play this deck again without a pair of Jittes in my sideboard, at least to answer theirs (Merfolk, Zoo, ...) and there was a lot of them. Ive tested Magus of the Moat, but he "only" convinced me against Elves and therefore decided against him for this tournament.

Daze worked better for me than it looks on paper, as Im/your tapping out very often with this deck!


Greetz, K1LO

K1LO
01-18-2010, 07:03 PM
I see your point in not playing Rafiq while playing Daze. I would suggest trying the single Meddling Mage Main. It looks weak on paper, but it's great against a lot of different Matchups, where you have problems Preboard.

How where Wonder and Grunt for you?
Sorry for the double-post, but since it answers a different player I think it brings more clarity to the thread and therefore should be fine.

I had considered Mage maindeck for a higher blue-count, but finally decided for Grunt as it is better against Loam and more other decks, especially when you draw him. Mage set on Dreams or Loam just doesnt have the impact like Grunt has against them and along with Daze I think, that I have less problematic matchups preboard in general. Also Iona + Mage feeled to be too much and I really like the "pseudo"-recursion with Grunt + Survival too!

Im not that sure about wonder yet as I won some games only because of her, but as I remember it is the card I sided out the most. But, Id rather side her out every match than playing without her. What do you think about Wonder?


Greetz, K1LO

MSC
01-19-2010, 05:00 AM
Im not that sure about wonder yet as I won some games only because of her, but as I remember it is the card I sided out the most. But, Id rather side her out every match than playing without her. What do you think about Wonder?


I sided her out in every single Match in the last Tournaments. So I decided, that I replace her with Jtun Grunt. I'm testing this config at the Moment. Sometimes I wish I still had Wonder, but it's only in 1 game of 20 or so, so I dn't think I will go back soon...

Kuma
01-19-2010, 12:24 PM
Yeah, I think running Loyal Retainers/Iona makes Wonder fairly redundant. I've cut Wonder from my list and haven't missed it yet.

I'm also wondering if the above combo doesn't make Rafiq somewhat redundant. Iona shuts your opponent down and ends the game on her own. Pretty much any situation where we could use Rafiq, we could also get Iona with Survival. I'm still running Rafiq for the time being, but he's on the chopping block.

MSC
01-19-2010, 05:46 PM
I thought about Rafiq, but I still like him. He makes Iona often a One-Attack-Clock, he's good in the Aggro-Mode without Survival and he's great with RWM...

But I'm often for new Ideas, how to replace him. Maybe Worldwake brings a new SilverBullet...

Jak
01-21-2010, 11:28 PM
I still like Rafiq. It still is the finisher of choice for me. If I need the few extra points of damage, Rafiq is there. If I need the extra life from War Monk, Rafiq is there. Iona is much better at locking up the game, but isn't ever necessarily an instant win. People are preparing for it since it does appear in Ichorid, Reanimator, and Survival. GY hate and diversifying the removal color hurts the combo. Rafiq still deserves the slot. Plus, Loyal Retainers can get it back too.

Galroth
01-22-2010, 02:39 AM
First of all, have to save I love this deck. I think currently it's one of the strongest concoctions in the legacy scene. It's consistent, has answers to just about everything, plays many of the strongest cards out there, and has some potentially game breaking plays. Solid all around.

I'm trying to determine what cards to include as my survival tutors. My current creature base is directed towards a strong aggro/aggro control meta. And after deliberation, I just made enough room for the loyal retainers/iona combo.

Here's my creature base:

4x Noble Hierarch
3x Qasali Pridemage
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Rhox War Monk
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob
1x Loyal Retainer
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Rafiq of the Many

I have 1 slot left and I'm debating between four cards: Wonder, Vendilion Clique, Sower of Temptation, and Trygon Predator. I thought I'd ask for everyone's opinion/advice.

I don't see much Affinity or any Enchantress, so I feel that Trygon Predator is the weakest option. I use to think Wonder was a shoe-in, but now that I've added Loyal Retainer/Iona and I've read several of the persuasive arguments put forth for Wonder's exclusion, I'm thinking Vendilion Clique may be the strongest option.

Suggestions and rationale?

Jak
01-22-2010, 02:50 AM
First of all, have to save I love this deck. I think currently it's one of the strongest concoctions in the legacy scene. It's consistent, has answers to just about everything, plays many of the strongest cards out there, and has some potentially game breaking plays. Solid all around.

I'm trying to determine what cards to include as my survival tutors. My current creature base is directed towards a strong aggro/aggro control meta. And after deliberation, I just made enough room for the loyal retainers/iona combo.

Here's my creature base:

4x Noble Hierarch
3x Qasali Pridemage
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Rhox War Monk
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob
1x Loyal Retainer
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Rafiq of the Many

I have 1 slot left and I'm debating between four cards: Wonder, Vendilion Clique, Sower of Temptation, and Trygon Predator. I thought I'd ask for everyone's opinion/advice.

I don't see much Affinity or any Enchantress, so I feel that Trygon Predator is the weakest option. I use to think Wonder was a shoe-in, but now that I've added Loyal Retainer/Iona and I've read several of the persuasive arguments put forth for Wonder's exclusion, I'm thinking Vendilion Clique may be the strongest option.

Suggestions and rationale?

What is the rest of the deck? Mostly just curious.

I would go for the Clique because I have nothing but love for them. Playing it right can seal up games or turn them in your favor. It also just can go for the win out of no where with flash.

Galroth
01-22-2010, 03:17 AM
18x Assorted Land

4x Survival of the Fittest
4x Force of Will
3x Spell Pierce
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
4x Swords to Plowshares

Fairly standard, except for maybe the 3x Ponder. The build seems a little weak against combo, but I have near none in my meta. Haven't established my sideboard yet, but it will contain 3-4x Path to Exile, 3-4x Daze, a couple of assorted Survival targets: particularly Faerie Macabre, likely some of the creatures that won't make it main... e.g. Wonder, Trygon Predator, etc. Probably Eternal Witness also.

Also, props for developing this deck Jak. Not only do I think it's the strongest deck in the Legacy scene currently. It's also fun to play, unlike Counter-Top garbage that dominated the scene 6 months back.

Jak
01-22-2010, 03:31 AM
18x Assorted Land

4x Survival of the Fittest
4x Force of Will
3x Spell Pierce
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
4x Swords to Plowshares

Fairly standard, except for maybe the 3x Ponder. The build seems a little weak against combo, but I have near none in my meta. Haven't established my sideboard yet, but it will contain 3-4x Path to Exile, 3-4x Daze, a couple of assorted Survival targets: particularly Faerie Macabre, likely some of the creatures that won't make it main... e.g. Wonder, Trygon Predator, etc. Probably Eternal Witness also.

Also, props for developing this deck Jak. Not only do I think it's the strongest deck in the Legacy scene currently. It's also fun to play, unlike Counter-Top garbage that dominated the scene 6 months back.

Thanks man.

The non-creature spells have been giving me the most trouble lately. I really want 3-4 main deck counters to help out Force of Will, but nothing sticks out as the best contender. Spell Pierce is amazing versus combo and control but weak at stopping that Lackey, Tarmogoyf, Bob, etc. Spell Snare stops hate spells and then some other goodies at the 2cc slot but can't handle things like Vial, Lackey, or bombs from control. Daze is good at stopping anything if the opponent plays into it, but is a tempo sink and is just a bad draw late game. I just feel the need for some good counters with the absence of Sprites.

Also, Ponder isn't out of the ordinary. Most people do run 2-4 of them which is fine. I don't because I love having a high creature count with stuff like Eternal Witness to pull me out of spots. My meta is hella random so I enjoy having a larger toolbox. If I could narrow the creature base down, Ponder would definitely go in because it does allow to sift through the unwanteds. Luckily, most creatures in the deck are fine on their own as opposed to drawing something like Big Game Hunter, Birds of Paradise, or Rofellos later on in the game.

Waikiki
01-22-2010, 05:37 AM
@Galroth, I'd run the kira in your last open slot as tutor target ;)
After testing this is the list I came up with dropping the faeries and spell snares for more aggression without survival.

// Lands
1 [P3] Plains (3)
1 [P3] Forest (2)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [A] Tropical Island
3 [A] Savannah
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [P3] Island (1)

// Creatures
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [ALA] Rafiq of the Many
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
3 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
3 [PS] Meddling Mage
1 [BOK] Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [P3] Loyal Retainers

// Spells
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
3 [LRW] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 [JU] Genesis
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [TSP] Scryb Ranger
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [CS] Jotun Grunt

Kira is mostly there to replace the sprites for anti removal in the rock or zoo matchups. It also seals the deal after resolving a MM on tendrils or Iona.

The meddling mages are very very skill intensive. You need to know exactly what kind of deck your opponent is playing and what cards would ruin your gameplan. But so far they have been doing their job gaining alot of time.

Now that I have 3 rwm and pridemage instead of 2 getting the beats on is more easier.

Illissius
01-22-2010, 10:17 AM
I have 1 slot left and I'm debating between four cards: Wonder, Vendilion Clique, Sower of Temptation, and Trygon Predator. I thought I'd ask for everyone's opinion/advice.

I'd go with Sower, though that's possibly just my dogmatic "thou shalt have a creature control slot in a Survival deck" reflexes speaking.

Kuma
01-22-2010, 01:08 PM
God, I love this deck. It's an absolute blast to play.

Loyal Retainers/Iona pushes this deck into tier one territory. I went 6-0-2 at a local Legacy event yesterday, and Iona won me at least three games I wouldn't have won without her, including a very important top eight game against Aggro Loam.

I did lose one game because I didn't have Wonder. It was in the semi-finals against Counterslivers. He beat me down to two with a few 4/4 slivers before I managed to stabalize with Iona, two Rhox War Monks, an Eternal Witness. He was at 19, and swinging for anything but lethal would have led to him being able to alpha strike me. On my next turn, I drop Rafiq and put him to three, knowing that Winged Sliver was his only out.

He topdecks the Winged Sliver.

If I had Wonder, I could have killed him a lot earlier or at least taken away his only out. I still don't think it's worth running unless your meta has a significant amount of decks with lots of flying creatures. Right now that's only Faerie Stompy and Counterslivers.

This is what I ran:

4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Tundra
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Rhox War Monk
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Eternal Witness
1 Trygon Predator
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Ponder

Sideboard:

1 Genesis
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Sower of Temptation
3 Propaganda
3 Path to Exile
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Kira, Great Glass Spinner

Julian23
01-23-2010, 08:20 PM
Just earned three BYEs for GP Madrid with this deck. Report can be found here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=422276#post422276). Never missed Wonder or Rafiq at all.

Savo
01-25-2010, 01:59 PM
Just earned three BYEs for GP Madrid with this deck. Report can be found here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=422276#post422276). Never missed Wonder or Rafiq at all.

I made you some questions on the tournament report section.

However these questions could be discussed in general: what about genesis? I don't like it anymore. Was good vs landstill, but that deck is nearly dead...
Maindeck spell pierce can be an alternative to spell snare? It remembers me the use of spell pierce in vintage oath, as a "blue duress" to make oath stick. In this case the enchantment is survival of course.

Julian23
01-25-2010, 02:19 PM
Might as well just reply here. I feel the same about Jenny as I always kept wondering why I actually put her in the board. She gives you a long-term advantage against any other decks aiming for the late game like Landstill or stuff like Truffle Shuffle. Question is, do we really need this. Not only do we pursue an aggressiv gameplan against those decks with exalted Vendilion Clique beats but we also got a lategame plan in form of Iona that more often than not can come down easily on turn 3 or 4. I felt "safe" having Genesis in the boarding because you might always just encounter some random deck or a guy you are very willing to go in the lategame with because you have trust in your superior skills but that shouldn't be a reason to hang on to a very niche sideboard card. In the GPT I only included her because I felt I didn't put enough thought into it to eventually remove her.

Regarding Spell Snare I have to say I grew to like them more than I used to in this deck. I tinkered around with removing them for Spell Pierce but in the end settled with playing the Snare mainly beacuase its much easier to race when you can counter their 2-drop creature. Besides that, of course, it's much better in the lategame especially against Aggro Loam (although I sided in additional Pierces against them) when you really want to counter Burning Wish because you know they're gonna get some reuseable spell with Dredge, Flashback or Retrace. Unless my meta turns combolicous I will not change this setup of 3 Snare main and 3 Pierces sb. Still I think both is viable and you can't do _much_ wrong here.

Spellstutter Sprites which I really like I'm still not 100% sold on. However I don't see a better alternative that's also a creature. Kira seems fine and I think I was wrong in not at least(!) having her in the sideboard although I don't see her as a replacement for the Spellstutters which provide more flexibility than turning off targeted removal.

Maybe I was to harsh about Wonder in my last post. I would like to fit Wonder into my sideboard because I think it can be really good against decks like to clog the ground or to enable lethal alpha strikes in Goyf-stalls. Still, I wouldn't cut essential cards like graveyard hate or Krosan Grips for it.

Well and Rafiq...I guess he's gonna be like your ex-girlfriend. At certain points you'll really miss him but realize that you're very likely to be better off without.

Savo
01-26-2010, 04:32 PM
A very simple question: how can I find a Loyal Retainers without paying over 100$ ? Does someone know a shop or anyone that sells one of them for a reasonable price?

humppa
01-26-2010, 05:06 PM
My opinion - wait after Madrid.

Savo
01-26-2010, 05:16 PM
My opinion - wait after Madrid.

Sage opinion. I'll try.

Julian23
01-26-2010, 05:19 PM
You can check the binders of people who don't give a damn about Legacy. Take my local shop for example. they just follow T2 prices. There you can still buy Mox Diamond for 14 Euro, Phyrexian Dreadnought for 10 Euro and Lion's Eye Diamond for 5 Euro. Maybe such a shop exists near your place as well. Took me quite some time to find out because I never actually considered buying major stuff from them as their T2 prices are just though the roof.

Jak
01-27-2010, 12:54 AM
If you can't spend $100 on them right now (I definitely couldn't), you should probably wait and hope they come down a bit since so many people now are unloading theirs. Most people, myself included, got lucky and bought them before the price increase really hit.

Waikiki
01-27-2010, 02:24 AM
The dealer im in contact with sold it to me together with iona for 23 euro

jeanbathez
01-27-2010, 06:00 AM
After testing this is the list I came up with dropping the faeries and spell snares for more aggression without survival.

// Lands
1 [P3] Plains (3)
1 [P3] Forest (2)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [A] Tropical Island
3 [A] Savannah
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [P3] Island (1)

// Creatures
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [ALA] Rafiq of the Many
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
3 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
3 [PS] Meddling Mage
1 [BOK] Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [P3] Loyal Retainers

// Spells
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
3 [LRW] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 [JU] Genesis
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [TSP] Scryb Ranger
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [CS] Jotun Grunt

Kira is mostly there to replace the sprites for anti removal in the rock or zoo matchups. It also seals the deal after resolving a MM on tendrils or Iona.

The meddling mages are very very skill intensive. You need to know exactly what kind of deck your opponent is playing and what cards would ruin your gameplan. But so far they have been doing their job gaining alot of time.

Now that I have 3 rwm and pridemage instead of 2 getting the beats on is more easier.

The idea looks quite interesting, may i ask how it worked so far for you. I'am thinking to take this version to s small tourney this weekend. Sometiems i had the feeling that the sprites and snares weren't needed or i was tapped out and later tehy were useless besides pitchuing to force or survival.



@Reainters : I orderd mine (chinese) for around 20 € by ebay singapure, now there aren't any. Here in germany the prizes explode, but as far as i know there is a difference between english and asian, i think english are very rare( Portal Three Kingdoms was printed for the asia market).

HBspulse
01-27-2010, 07:17 AM
Some random thoughts :

What about misdirection in the maindeck, instead of spell snare or spellstutter?
- you can support it
- it can force through your survival more easily
- it protects your creatures from targeted removal
- it bounces orim chants back

Just for fun :
Another legend to 'retain' :Sharuum the Hegemon, you can combine it with platinum angel or sphinx of the steel wind or ...2 for 1

crow_mw
01-27-2010, 07:40 AM
Just for fun :
Another legend to 'retain' :Sharuum the Hegemon, you can combine it with platinum angel or sphinx of the steel wind or ...2 for 1

The only reason Retainers are played at all is that Iona is so ridiculously powerful on her own. Not only adding two dead draws instead of one to the deck is not the direction we should be heading, but also I take Iona in play over Sharrum & Platinium Angel any day.

Savo
01-27-2010, 07:53 AM
You can check the binders of people who don't give a damn about Legacy. Take my local shop for example. they just follow T2 prices. There you can still buy Mox Diamond for 14 Euro, Phyrexian Dreadnought for 10 Euro and Lion's Eye Diamond for 5 Euro. Maybe such a shop exists near your place as well. Took me quite some time to find out because I never actually considered buying major stuff from them as their T2 prices are just though the roof.

This could have been possible for an expansion that was distributed in our contries... unless I consider a fast fly to china, japan, or australia...


The dealer im in contact with sold it to me together with iona for 23 euro

Give me his contacts!

Waikiki
01-27-2010, 03:18 PM
The idea looks quite interesting, may i ask how it worked so far for you. I'am thinking to take this version to s small tourney this weekend. Sometiems i had the feeling that the sprites and snares weren't needed or i was tapped out and later tehy were useless besides pitchuing to force or survival.


So far the build has been really strong to me. Its very easy to go aggro and if you got alot of knowlegde on the format MM wil serve you well.

Jokemon
01-27-2010, 04:15 PM
So far the build has been really strong to me. Its very easy to go aggro and if you got alot of knowlegde on the format MM wil serve you well.
I agree with you, this build got some real potential.
I've tried almost the same build as you Waikiki but replaced Ponder with Spell Snare and 1 MM with Cold-Eyed Selkie (if you haven't tried her, do it!)
and went 2-0, 2-0, 2-0 at a small lokal turney today. Didn't missed Sprites one bit and MM is really strong.

Waikiki
01-28-2010, 06:43 AM
I have tried selkie and most of the time you get her when survival is out which means you allready got an CA engine.

DTW!!!! Awesome

godryk
01-28-2010, 07:16 AM
DTW!!!Congrats on the deck creators! Good job!

BTW: I just got my Loyal Retainers in the mail today...

jeanbathez
01-28-2010, 07:23 AM
DTW !!!
Yeah !!
Also congrats on the deck creators !!!!!

@Waikiki : Mages, i hope i make the right choices will try it :-)
Another idea i've heared of moving swords to SB, and adding path to the main, so mage name swords to protect our guys.

Savo
01-28-2010, 09:45 AM
BTW: I just got my Loyal Retainers in the mail today...

Since Yesterday, I'm in the club too. A very stupid store owner emailed me saying that he had one for... 1.5€. Five minutes later, I was driving like mad to catch it. Lol

P.s. What does DTW and BTW mean?

KillemallCFH
01-28-2010, 09:57 AM
P.s. What does DTW and BTW mean?DTW = Deck to Watch
BTW = By the way

Julian23
01-28-2010, 10:11 AM
It's awesome how fast this deck became DTW.

Right now I'm running 2 Vendillion Clique. If it wasn't legendary I'd surely be running four of them. Usually I drop one turn 2, take a removal, then ride it to victory, protecting it from other removal with Force/Kira(which I am playing now) and Spellstutter Sprites. It only takes 5 - with one more Exalted just 4 - turns to deal 20 damage. I'm asking myself if going up to three copies of Vendillion Clique would be ok just to make sure to draw it more often? Or even replace it once removal hits? Opinions? Has anyone tried 3 of it so far?

Waikiki
01-28-2010, 11:30 AM
Clique is indeed very strong. The problem is that im pretty full on 3cc slots and in my meta merfolk and zoo are very well represented where RWM is just better and I gave the slot to him and kira md.

godryk
01-28-2010, 12:06 PM
I really love Clique in almost any matchup besides maybe Zoo, where it won't do very much. Even in matchups like Merfolks I found her (them?) nice at making surprise blocks or coming in at their end of turn to break stalemates and finishing their last 4-5 points of life thanks to exalted friends. I've been playing a list "created" by a local player (we're all like a big familly in Madrid) who, as me, is not friend of singletons or silver bullets. Survival of the Fittest is only a way to generate card advantage if it lands. However, due to the real power that the Retainers package adds to the deck, it has ended being included. The list I'm playing looks like this:

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona Shield of Emeria
1 Squee Goblin Nabob

4 FoW
3 Spell Snare / Daze
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Swords to Plowshares

19 Lands

If I were moving to a creature build such as lists other posters have published, I'm pretty sure I would be increasing numbers of Qasali and/or Rhox, as they work fine. The Madrid's metagame is too open and you can't risk to maindeck something like Kira and, arguably, Trygon Predator, as you may not face any matchup in which those cards may end up being relevant, even in seven round tournaments. I'll keep on playing this list during this month. Right now I need to test if there is a MD counterspell that deserves the slot besides the necessary evil of Force of Will.

NiRVeS
01-28-2010, 01:16 PM
Deck looks pretty sweet. I've been toying around with it a bit and something I wondered: suppose you're a little stuck on mana (just 2 lands) and you've got survival in play, but nothing else (yet). Is it correct to tutor for hierach on turn 3 in this case (after fetching squee, that is)? Or do you just stick to the goyf-goyf-goyf plan? (lets keep the opponent out of the equation for this one, I'm talking in general here).

Grtz Tom

Julian23
01-28-2010, 01:43 PM
In general I'd get a Hierarch asp in this case. Tutor for Hierarch on turn 3 means turn 4 Iona if you didn't get Squee and drew a land. Otherwise turn 5. Sounds like a plan, especially if you got a Force in hand.

But what does "in general" mean when you're facing a lot of angry cats...guess if your opponent plays burn while your stuck on 2 land you're kind of doomed even with an active Survival unless he's got a slow start as well. You might wanna get RWM, have Force for his path and pray to topdeck a land.

Savo
01-28-2010, 03:37 PM
(lets keep the opponent out of the equation for this one, I'm talking in general here).

To me this is impossible. that choice is determined by the opponent...I would even say ONLY by what the opponent is doing.


4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona Shield of Emeria
1 Squee Goblin Nabob

4 FoW
3 Spell Snare / Daze
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Swords to Plowshares

19 Lands

If I were moving to a creature build such as lists other posters have published, I'm pretty sure I would be increasing numbers of Qasali and/or Rhox, as they work fine. The Madrid's metagame is too open and you can't risk to maindeck something like Kira and, arguably, Trygon Predator, as you may not face any matchup in which those cards may end up being relevant, even in seven round tournaments. I'll keep on playing this list during this month. Right now I need to test if there is a MD counterspell that deserves the slot besides the necessary evil of Force of Will.
- Nice list. I understand your opinion about 1x silver bullets in survival bant. The fact is that Retainer+Iona is a silver bullet FOR EVERYTHING lol. You don't need other.

- However, I would go to 21 creatures because otherwise sometimes you may struggle to have one in hand to activate survival.

- The counters: I suggest daze. A simple thought: besides Force, daze is the most played counter in the format. Every deck that plays Spell snare already plays 4 daze too. On the other hand, several decks that play Daze don't play Spell snare. Daze is stronger than Spell snare.


The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
4. Stifle Standstill.

Why not? lol

Waikiki
01-28-2010, 03:42 PM
I've tested daze and even started with it in my first list. And I came to the conclusion if you dont run the vial version then you do not want to lose a land drop. i'd go with some other form of disruption then.

Savo
01-28-2010, 03:53 PM
I've tested daze and even started with it in my first list. And I came to the conclusion if you dont run the vial version then you do not want to lose a land drop. i'd go with some other form of disruption then.

That sounds strange to me. Decks like traditional bant or Natural order(2gg) bant play 4x Daze by default, even if they are more "damaged" that survival bant by loosing the land drop.
By the way, you will certainly agree that the land drop loose is irrelevant if you start with noble hierarch. Maybe you could play the fifth hierarch (a Bop, or the new elf that untaps a forest) to minimize the land drop issues.

However, I think that Daze is the best counter after Fow, period. Not playing it will cause you to be timewalked every turn to play around the opponent's Daze. Would you play second turn survival Vs a blue deck (unless you played first turn hierarch of course)? Daze is the card that really gives an edge to blue decks vs other decks in legacy.

Jak
01-28-2010, 08:02 PM
There was a list that got 6th in a 69 person tournament packing a full set of Daze. I think he is on the forums too. It didn't run Iona Retainers though, so I would try something like this.

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Tundra
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Daze

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Trygon Predator
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 Eternal Witness
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona

SB
3 Path to Exile
3 Krosan Grip
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Meddling Mage
1 Genesis

I still want Rafiq and Wonder somewhere in there just becuase they can pull you out of spots that Iona can't. I am probably overvaluing them though. Wonder should at least be in the SB for swarm aggro decks.

chokin
01-28-2010, 11:10 PM
I'd remove a Clique and land for Wonder and Rafiq, but that's just me. I'm stubborn with the 18 lands (6 of which are fetch).

Something cool from your list is that with the 8 fetch, your Brainstorms get better. And the Dazes are nice. I still roll Snare though, as countering opposing Goyfs/Standstills/Confidant/DDreams/Survival and so on. Daze just allows you to go nuts on the first 4 turns while they either run into it or play around it, making your clock/drops meaner. Daze's cost is also negated by Noble Hierarch kinda, which is nice.

Jak
01-29-2010, 01:41 AM
I'd remove a Clique and land for Wonder and Rafiq, but that's just me. I'm stubborn with the 18 lands (6 of which are fetch).

Something cool from your list is that with the 8 fetch, your Brainstorms get better. And the Dazes are nice. I still roll Snare though, as countering opposing Goyfs/Standstills/Confidant/DDreams/Survival and so on. Daze just allows you to go nuts on the first 4 turns while they either run into it or play around it, making your clock/drops meaner. Daze's cost is also negated by Noble Hierarch kinda, which is nice.

I'm in love with Cliques. I like drawing them without Survival, so I would never go below 2. I still have Wonder and Rafiq in my normal list since they are good, but I've been wanting to run a 19th land to try it out and see if it improves consistency a bit.

I think Daze could be good. I tried it along with Waikiki the first time the card was brought up and it did ok, not great. That was when Genesis was main. The list has changed and I plan on trying Daze again. The biggest problem I had with it the first time was that it took away from creatures, but since I am removing non-creature cards for them (Spell Snares), it could be okay.

Just to be clear, I still play Spell Snare, I am just throwing Daze back into the thread since it did well in a large tournament.

jeanbathez
01-29-2010, 02:33 AM
I'm in love with Cliques. I like drawing them without Survival, so I would never go below 2. I still have Wonder and Rafiq in my normal list since they are good, but I've been wanting to run a 19th land to try it out and see if it improves consistency a bit.

Thats interesting, i often had the same feeling that 18 aren't enough, some of my losses was because of screw or just waiting for one more land, so i decided to go up to 19 and test it.

Jak
01-29-2010, 02:36 AM
Thats interesting, i often had the same feeling that 18 aren't enough, some of my losses was because of screw or just waiting for one more land, so i decided to go up to 19 and test it,

18 has been fine for me, even through hate. However, I think 19 might help later in the game to get up to five mana for Iona combo or so I never have to Survival for more Hierarchs. I plan to test it to see if the mana is a little more consistant.

Waikiki
01-29-2010, 03:34 AM
The problem with daze imo is: When you are playing against zoo or other aggro decks you will lose alot of speed and simply get out aggroed. Daze in that case is only good when you can go trop into hierarch. Right now I dont even miss any counter beside fow.

chokin
01-29-2010, 04:13 AM
I think that Daze is a fine spell. You can still go turn 2 RWM and protect with either Daze or FoW. Not saying it's gonna work all the time, but it makes their stuff cost 1 more or they risk a spell being countered. Counters that hit everything have always been better than counters that are more limited (exception of Pierce and Snare).

I love Snare. Most decks run 2cc spells. Pierce is either dead vs most aggro, or awesome against combo and control. Although the play experience with it comes from Tempo Thresh, being able to stop Elspeth with one mana was pretty funny. It makes Moat and Humility cost 2 more as well to be safe or they have to have backup counters. Snare, Pierce, and Daze are the next best things for the deck after Force. It's just entirely dependent on meta and playstyle.

I just got my Retainers in. But I think I'm going to play Ad Nauseum this week. I'll test LR/Iona soon though!

MSC
01-29-2010, 05:22 AM
I have gone to 19 Lands some Time ago and never wanted to go back. Beeing able to live trough LD or Mana-Denial helps this Mana-hungry Deck a lot. I even thought about running a fifth Mana-Producer beside Hierarch. Maybe a BoP or Werebear as One-Off, but I havn't found Space for it.



For Wonder, Its a personal choice if you run it. But I don't like it Sideboard. Apart from maybe Faeries, ther is no Deck, where you want to Board it.

Black Mass
01-29-2010, 06:24 AM
The problem with daze imo is: When you are playing against zoo or other aggro decks you will lose alot of speed and simply get out aggroed. Daze in that case is only good when you can go trop into hierarch. Right now I dont even miss any counter beside fow.

This, plus the fact that SotF is a very mana hungry engine that I want to get online as soon as possible, dropping a Survival in turn 2 or turn 3 makes a world of difference.

majikal
01-29-2010, 02:48 PM
This, plus the fact that SotF is a very mana hungry engine that I want to get online as soon as possible, dropping a Survival in turn 2 or turn 3 makes a world of difference.
I've been playing Daze in my build for the last week or two. The same concerns in the quote above made me hesitant to try it initially, but pushing through a turn 2 SotF is huge. You may lose one land drop, but between Noble Hierarch and the fact that you only need three mana to shut your opponent out of the game it's not really that big of a deal.

I think playstyle really has a lot to do with it as well. If you're using SotF to chain stuff like Squee into Wonder into whatever useful card, then yeah, it's going to be really mana hungry and Daze probably isn't a great call. But lately, I've been doing one activation at opponent's EOT if I have Squee, and maybe one on my own turn if I really need something other than what's in my hand.

I honestly wouldn't run the deck without Daze as a 4-of now. It's just that good.

Kuma
01-29-2010, 03:05 PM
I ran Bant Survival at a local twenty-man Legacy event Wednesday.

Here's my list:

4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Rhox War Monk
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Trygon Predator
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Eternal Witness
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Ponder

Sideboard:

4 Propaganda
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Genesis
1 Kira, Great Glass Spinner
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt

I saw a lot of Tempo Thresh being sleeved up before the tournament and some talk of Ichorid being played, so I cut two Path to Exile from my board for a Relic of Progenitus and a Tormod's Crypt. The local Aggro Loam player walked in the door at the last minute which made me feel even better about the decision.

Round One: Brizentine Emperor with Mono-red Goblins.

I win the die roll and I fetch a Tropical Island to play Ponder. My top three are Force of Will, Tarmogoyf, and Trygon Predator. I draw the FoW and pass my turn. He plays Wasteland and destroys my Tropical Island, but lucky for me I have two more lands in hand. On my next turn, I fetch away my Trygon Predator. He plays Mountain, Aether Vial and I force it. I play a 4/5 Tarmogoyf. He plays a Mogg War Marshall, and I play a second Tarmogoyf. On my next turn I play Survival and hit him with a goyf. The turn after that I have an Iona naming red. He has a small army of Goblins, but with two goyfs, and Iona and an active Survival, he doesn't stand a chance.

+1 Kira, Great Glass Spinner, +4 Propaganda, -1 Eternal Witness, -1 Trygon Predator, -1 Vendilion Clique, -1 Rafiq of the Many, -1 Qasali Pridemage.

I board in Kira to shut off his Gempalm Incinerators, Stingscourgers, and Pyrokineses.

Game two I open a hand of 3x Propaganda, Tropical Island, 2x fetchlands, and a Ponder. I keep it with the knowledge that as long as he doesn't play a Lackey turn one I will be fine. He leads with Mountain, Aether Vial and I smile. My Ponder reveals junk and I shuffle, drawing a Tarmogoyf. He plays a Mogg War Marshall and I play a 2/3 goyf. He plays a Goblin Warchief and I play a Propaganda.

Cha-ching!

The next few turns he builds an army while I play my other two Propagandas and draw lots of land. Eventually he gets to six mana and starts whittling my life points down. I resolve a few creatures, but they barely slow him down as he uses Gempalm Incinerators and Pyrokineses to keep them off the board. He gets my life total down to six when I hardcast Iona

That's right. I hardcast Iona against Goblins.

Since I have more creatures than he has removal spells, I eventually stick a goyf and kill him with four swings of Iona. There were three out of nineteen lands in my deck at the end of the game, and I never saw a Survival.

1-0-0

Round two: Jedi Knight with Mono-red Goblins

Here we go again...

My opening hand was ill-equipped to deal with his turn one Goblin Lackey. It was something like 2x Noble Hierarch, 2x lands, Ponder, Brainstorm, and something else. I Ponder, looking for something to stop the Lackey insanity, but I don't find anything. He hits me with Lackey and puts a Warchief into play. I Brainstorm, again looking for something to keep the game manageable, and find a Tarmogoyf, but I can't play it until my next turn. He hardcasts a Gempalm Incinerator and hits me for five, putting a Goblin Matron into play, finding another Incinerator. I play a 3/4 Tarmogoyf, which he tries to kill with the Incinerator, but cycling the Incinerator makes it a 4/5! My goyf survives with four damage on it, but I trade with his Warchief in combat, going to four. On my turn, I play a Rhox War Monk. He plays a Mogg War Marshall and passes. I do some math, and decide to swing into his army with a 4/5 exalted Rhox War Monk, going to eight. I give him the possibility of victory if he draws a Goblin Chieftan, but my chances to swing the game were dwindling. He doesn't play a Chieftan, and I drop another Noble Hierarch allowing my Rhox War Monk to swing for five. He doesn't block and both our life totals are at thirteen. Next turn he doesn't block again, trying to build a critical mass of goblins. I drop a second Rhox War Monk, and he decides to trade a few Goblins for my attacking War Monk. It's all downhill for him from there as he's forced to keep making disadvantagous trades in combat.

Sideboarding same as before.

I didn't take very good notes for game two. He leads with Goblin Lackey and beats me down to twelve, but I stop him cold with a Propaganda. I play a Survival next turn and an Iona the turn after that. He can't do anything to stop me. After the game he told me he thought I was playing CounterTop with Progenitus, and showed me the Anarchies he sided in, which were dead with Iona in play.

2-0-0

Round three: yawg07 with Ur Painter

I know he's playing painter because we talked briefly between rounds, and he mentioned playing a Painter's Servant. I keep an opening hand with two lands, a Qasali Pridemage, a Trygon Predator, a Ponder, and something else, I think Swords to Plowshares.

*twirls monocle*

I Ponder and pass the turn. On my next turn, I play a Qasali Pridemage which he Forces. He plays a Grindstone and passes. I risk walking my Trygon Predator into Daze, but he Forces it as well. He plays a Sensei's Divining Top and spins it off an Ancient Tomb. I play a Survival and he Forces it, pitching his fourth Force of Will. He plays a Painter's servant naming blue. I try to StP it, but he has a Red Elemental Blast waiting for it! I draw my card and he wonders out loud if I can stop him from untapping and milling me. Fortunately, I have another Qasali Pridemage which I play and sacrifice immediately to take out his Painter's Servant. He untaps and puts Painter's Servant on top of his deck with Academy Ruins, but he doesn't have enough mana to play it. He spins Top trying to find a way to stop me, but a timely Force of Will helps me kill him before he can set up his combo.

+1 Kira, Great Glass Spinner, -1 Rhox War Monk

I draw a similar hand game two, blessing my good fortune. He plays a Grindstone and Forces a Qasali Pridemage, but I land a Trygon Predator and kill him with triple-exalted Predator beatz.

3-0-0

Round four: OneBigSquirrelGod with Ichorid

I know he's playing Ichorid because he sat next to me round one. Lucky me. He wins the die roll. I keep a hand with Force of Will, Tarmogoyf, and two Rhox War Monks, figuring I can beat him down quickly while he slow dredges.

He goes first passes his turn without doing anything. I play a turn two Rhox War Monk, followed by a turn three Rhox War Monk and beat him to six putting myself at 32. Unfortuately for me he Therapies the Force of Will and Dread Returns a Sphinx of Lost Truths. He makes just enough Zombies to kill me with Flame-Kin Zealot and we go to game two.

-1 Eternal Witness, -1 Trygon Predator, -2 Qasali Pridemage, -1 Vendilion Clique, -4 Swords to Plowshares, +4 Propaganda, +3 Faerie Macabre, +1 Relic of Progenitus, +1 Tormod's Crypt.

I keep an opener with Faerie Macabre, Force of Will, and some good beats. He plays a Cephalid Colosseum and a Lion's Eye Diamond, which I Force. I build an army and beat him down to four, but before I can kill him, he plays a Lotus Petal and Firestorms for four killing a Tarmogoyf, and two Rhox War Monks, while discarding three dredgers! I Faerie Macabre two Stinkweed Imps on his upkeep, and he dredges a Golgari Thug and finds more dredgers. I Brainstorm twice, and the second one finds me a Relic of Progenitus, which I play and use. A Noble Hierarch finishes him off.

Game three is one close game of Magic. I keep another hand with Faerie Macabre, but he leads with a Putrid Imp. At the end of my turn, he discards a Stinkweed Imp and I use the Macabre on it hoping it's his only dredger. Unfortunately, he discards another dredger, I think it was a Golgari Thug, and dredges it. I play a Tarmogoyf on my turn, and take him to fourteen with a 6/7 Tarmogoyf. He starts attacking me with his Putrid Imp, a Narcomoeba, an Ichorid and a zombie token, but I'm able to stave off some of the damage with another goyf. I manage to land a Survival and keep him off Bridges, and ultimately dredgers with Survivaled up Faerie Macabres, but his flyers take me to three. Finally, I slow him down enough that I can get an Iona. After a minute or so of deliberation, I name blue in case he boarded in Chains of Vapor. I sing with two goyfs and an Iona, knowing he's going to have to block with his Narcomoeba to stay alive. His Putrid Imp can only take me to one, and I win of the fourth turn of extra turns.

4-0-0

Round five: I ID so I can get some food before top eight starts. I think he was playing Burn, but I'm not 100% sure.

4-0-1

Top Eight: Vince with Countersliver

This is not an easy match for me, especially since Vince runs Spell Snare in his main deck. That card is the bane of Survival's existence.

Game one we each play a land and pass. On my second turn, I try to resolve Survival, but he Spell Snares it. I Force his Spell Snare, but he Spell Snares again.

Fuck me.

He plays a Crystalline Sliver, and the Swords to Plowshares in my hand becomes useless. A few turns later I play a 4/5 goyf to stabalize, but he StPs it. A turn later, a Mutavault, Muscle Sliver, and Crystaline Sliver take me to seven and I can't recover.

-1 Qasali Pridemage, +1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress. I probably should have boarded in the Sower of Temptation too, but oh well.

Game two we do a bunch of Forcing and fetching, when he Vials in a Crystalline Sliver and a Muscle Sliver and starts beating be down. I topdeck a Rhox War Monk and stabalize, but he has a Winged Sliver. Fortunately for me I topdeck Rafiq of the Many and I'm able to swing the game with a 4/5 lifelinking, doublestriking Rhox War Monk.

Game three I Force his turn one Aether Vial, but he has another one. :mad: I try to play Survival, but he has the Snare. He plays a Crystalline Sliver and takes me down to fourteen. He StPs a goyf and takes me to sixteen with his Crystalline Sliver. Next turn vials in a Muscle Sliver, taking me to eleven, and plays a Winged Sliver post-combat. I draw a Ponder, and shuffle back Rafiq, Tarmogoyf, land, knowing full well, there's nothing I can do to win. I draw Brainstorm off the Ponder and play it finding Survival, which I use to get a Llawan, Cephalid Empress, but with an active Vial, it wasn't even a speedbump.

4-1-1

I really missed Wonder against Countersliver, but that's one of like two matchups where you really want it. Rafiq actually won me a game, which makes me reconsider cutting him, as he can be amazing off the top in the lategame, and a valuable Survival target against fast decks. Genesis is the worst card in the 75 right now, as it's good in our best matchups (slow board control) and often irrelevant even there. I'm probably going to cut it. The Ponders continue to be excellent, and are probably going to remain in my list indefinitely, though I may try Sensei's Divining Top instead. I'm also considering Spell Snare, at least in the board, because it would have been a huge help against Slivers, and solid in some other tough matchups.

mossivo1986
01-29-2010, 03:27 PM
If Snare is the bane of our exhistance, whats the problem with running daze or pierce in the maindeck? I mean efficiency wise isn't the best play we can make t1 land hierarch, t2 goyf or survival with pierce or daze backup? from there win game?

I know that Jak or wakiki mentioned daze as a mana sink, but isn't that exactly what you want? You want to have that extra piece of disruption for their early game so you can just win faster?

Waikiki
01-29-2010, 04:03 PM
My testing concluded I rather play more creatures and keep constant pressure while developping my mana and late game drop the survival and let them use the counters on my beats instead of going for a T2 survival. Most of the time daze isn't really countering anything gamebreaking. I protect my own bombs by drawwing out counters. I started with daze aswell. Then turned away from it since the extra mana a turn sooner is just so strong. So I turned to spell snare. You have to let go of the box the tempo decks play. It's very hard to explain in words from a foreign language but I'd hope I am able to get my vision clear. If you prefer to run daze be my guest. I believe you should always tune a deck in your preferences. Especially survival deck which can be very meta dependant.

Savo
01-29-2010, 07:02 PM
I already expressed my opinion on Daze: it's one of the best spells in the format, there must be a very good reason for not playing it in a blue deck.

Today I tested, a lot of games, vs Merfolk. Bad news. 30%-70% for Merfolk.

Merfolk is one of the most played decks in the format. What are the matchups against the other dominant archetypes? An important question to answer. Do you play this deck because you think is a good, maybe even the best choice, or just because you enjoy playing with it?

Jak
01-29-2010, 07:06 PM
I already expressed my opinion on Daze: it's one of the best spells in the format, there must be a very good reason for not playing it in a blue deck.

Today I tested, a lot of games, vs Merfolk. Bad news. 30%-70% for Merfolk.

Merfolk is one of the most played decks in the format. What are the matchups against the other dominant archetypes? An important question to answer. Do you play this deck because you think is a good, maybe even the best choice, or just because you enjoy playing with it?

It is not that bad. Survival doesn't have horrendous matchups like that. Plus, if anything, it is even. Preboard, don't get blown out by Wasteland and play around Daze. Pick off Lord of Atlantis and your creatures should be bigger than theirs. Postboard, Paths come in to continue hitting their lords.

Waikiki
01-30-2010, 03:47 AM
Did you read my last report beating both merfolk players 2-0 and 2-1. I wonder what list did you use and how did you board?

Savo
01-30-2010, 04:32 AM
this is the list I tried, a quite standard one.

4 survival of the fittest
4 force of will
4 brainstorm
4 swords to plowshares
3 daze
2 ponder

4 noble hierarch
4 tarmogoyf
3 rhox war monk
3 spellstutter sprite
2 qasali pridemage
1 eternal witness
1 loyal retainers
1 Squee, goblin nabob
1 Iona, shield of emeria

19land

I tested only pre-side, because I don't think the matchup is going to improve a lot post-side. The merfolk I tested didn't even play jitte maindeck.
4x paths vs jitte and kira... I don't expect a shift over 10% ...in our advantage at least.

the spellstutters are really bad in this matchup. The Iona combo is a mirage vs a deck with so much tempo and mana denial, not to mention 4x stifles that he can save, not targeting the fetches, to make our combo nearly impossible to settle. RWM and swords are the best cards in this matchup for us of course..


Did you read my last report beating both merfolk players 2-0 and 2-1.
The player in this fomat matters a lot. Maybe you were more skilled than them?.. here I tested with a good PTQ player, and we exchanged the decks to check if something changed.

Merfolk is just faster. always a step above. The data suggest, and my personal testing experience confirms, that merfolk is over 50% vs any blue deck in the format, except canadian pre-board. Otherwise would be a really stupid choice, given that it looses badly from zoo and evey aggro/burn deck.

So I can accept to have a bad matchup vs Merfolk. But are our other matchups good enough to justify playing this deck? I'm asking.

godryk
01-30-2010, 06:04 AM
I tested only pre-side, because I don't think the matchup is going to improve a lot post-side. The merfolk I tested didn't even play jitte maindeck.
4x paths vs jitte and kira... I don't expect a shift over 10% ...in our advantage at least.

I don't know, I don't find it that hard. For me the key spell in the matchup is Swords to Plowshares. If I can keep Lord of Atlantis off the table, I feel my chances of winning increase dramatically. Lord of Atlantis is what changes the matchup, because they need a lot of dudes (time) to surpass our blockers and they're not playing as much creatures as Goblins or Elves do. I also think it's pretty relevant to test post side matchups, because you get access to seven StP effects (even eight if needed) opposed to the four you have in the pre-board games.

Other card I liked against Merfolk is Spell Snare, as it counters Standstill (huge) and Umezawa's Jitte (which can harm you a lot) and if you get to fow or qasali their Vial or they don't draw it, you can counter LoA. Maybe my testing partners are noobs for not auto-mulliganing ANY non-Vial hand, but in my experience there isn't always a Vial there, and in those games Spell Snare is golden.

And finally, Vendilion Clique, I run 3 of them, and they're awesome, specially if you don't have Wonder, as it breaks stalemates when coming down at their end of turn to take their las 4-5 points of life. It's also awesome making surprise blocks. Sometimes you can even drop one in response to Standstill, though not very likely.

Right now I find the matchup even post side. If they don't go nuts with Vial into a buch of LoA against a StPless hand or chaining two or more Standstills I don't feel helpless. However, I don't usually play against lists running Stifle, I (honestly) don't know if that changes the numbers significantly. If further testing proves me I'm wrong I may increase my tribal hate, but right know my boogey man is Zoo...

Propaganda? Llawan? Jitte? What do other posters think?